**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Wed Apr 23 02:59:58 2014 Apr 23 05:36:09 i heard they broke openssl for years so i avoided it Apr 23 05:36:14 looked like qa failure Apr 23 06:15:11 Hello, running first day on beaglebone black and I was about to boot ubuntu on an SD card... Apr 23 06:15:11 and now it never boots Apr 23 06:15:47 EterniaLogic: can you be a bit more specific? Apr 23 06:15:55 no USR0-USR3 Led action going on, even when I hold down the user button Apr 23 06:16:26 but PWR led is on Apr 23 06:17:14 EterniaLogic: how did you prepare the SD card? Apr 23 06:17:49 Ubuntu SD using image writer on windows Apr 23 06:20:08 when I plug it into a windows computer, I get a device called: "AM335x USB", when I plug it into linux, nothing shows up Apr 23 06:23:09 is it bricked? I was running a VNC session when it suddenly stopped running. Apr 23 06:23:22 which will suck, because I've only had it for 1 day... Apr 23 06:23:49 worst case, just rewrite the sd card again Apr 23 06:24:02 sounds like you havnt done anything that would physically hurt the BBB Apr 23 06:24:39 does angstrom not ship with prudrv.c out of the factory? Apr 23 06:24:46 no USR0-USR3 Leds showing up Apr 23 06:24:54 plus, its generally wiser to start with debian instead of ubuntu, as that image sees considerably more love: http://beagleboard.org/latest-images Apr 23 06:26:00 foreverska: thats very possible. Apr 23 06:26:47 ... thats terrible... The package in debian seems outdated and it doesn't exist in Angstrom Apr 23 06:28:23 foreverska: obviously we have very different definitions of "terrible" Apr 23 06:28:45 copying a c file back and forth should not be worth being called "terrible" Apr 23 06:29:33 Well if the *prudrv.h isn't there then likely the libs aren't either Apr 23 06:29:46 the right thing might be to contact the package maintainer and ask him to update his package Apr 23 06:31:49 foreverska: well you asked only for the specific c file firsthand ;) Apr 23 06:32:38 foreverska: have you verified that the beagleboard.org provided debian image is also outdated? if yes, then what tbr suggested should be the correct thing to do. Apr 23 06:33:38 Well its really odd... the header present in the Debian image is inconsistent with TI's documentation. I assume TI's documentation is right in this instance. Apr 23 06:33:41 Should I re-order another BBB? (returning through amazon) Apr 23 06:34:29 all it seems to be doing is turning on and off, no matter what media I use to boot with. no matter what button I press in what order Apr 23 06:34:42 and no USR lights ever come on Apr 23 06:36:05 sounds strange Apr 23 06:36:19 the power supply is fine? Apr 23 06:37:06 dont have a multimeter on hand, but PWR is coming on Apr 23 06:37:38 hm Apr 23 06:38:49 EterniaLogic: how are you powering it? from what source? Apr 23 06:40:08 wall usb charger, 700mA Apr 23 06:40:28 might not be enough power Apr 23 06:40:44 it was working fine earlier Apr 23 06:40:54 do you have any other way of powering it? Apr 23 06:40:55 then plop, doesnt work Apr 23 06:41:23 yea, that can happen. Apr 23 06:42:04 just stops working? Apr 23 06:42:47 afaik well 700ma isnt really enough, you might have been just under that before but over it now. Apr 23 06:43:07 and a lot of problems are caused by not giving it enough power Apr 23 06:43:31 so its just an obvious thing to try if theres no other reasons that are obvious Apr 23 06:43:43 which from what you have said, there is nothing more obvious Apr 23 06:44:54 what current is necessary Apr 23 06:45:47 i think 1A is min 2A recommended depending on what your doing Apr 23 06:47:32 "The board uses the same power supply as the Beaglebone. 5VDC, 1A, 2.1mm, CENTER POSITIVE. The power supply is not supplied with the board. " http://elinux.org/Beagleboard:BeagleBone_Black_Accessories#Power_Supplies Apr 23 06:47:42 2A is a bit much, 1A should do fine. Apr 23 06:47:49 the pandaboard needed 2A Apr 23 06:48:51 if your buying a psu for it, surely 2a supplys arent much more than a comparable 1a? Apr 23 06:49:09 I will try to add another 500 ma to see if it helps Apr 23 06:49:59 its just essential that you do not overvolt it Apr 23 06:51:54 hello Apr 23 06:52:12 i am thinking about making a case for my bbb, out of billet aluminum Apr 23 06:52:19 with built in heatsinks Apr 23 06:52:31 good idea? Apr 23 06:53:03 certainly an interesting idea Apr 23 06:53:41 http://www.raspberry-pi-case.com/pictures/raspberry-pi-case_assembly4.jpg Apr 23 06:53:44 similar to this Apr 23 06:53:52 ahh yea nice Apr 23 06:54:07 green circles thermal paste Apr 23 06:54:09 :D Apr 23 06:54:12 yup Apr 23 06:54:15 did you make that one? Apr 23 06:54:20 Pretty sure I read these chips don't get that hot but can't hurt Apr 23 06:54:21 no Apr 23 06:54:31 yeah you wont need heatsinks Apr 23 06:54:35 well, my question is, CAN it hurt? Apr 23 06:54:44 i cant see how Apr 23 06:54:46 could it actually worsen heat disapation Apr 23 06:54:54 its not that i need it Apr 23 06:54:57 yeah, 1A iphone charger, nothing Apr 23 06:55:00 its because i need a project for school Apr 23 06:55:05 nope wont hurt Apr 23 06:55:10 unless you botch it Apr 23 06:55:34 well i will use a height gauge and granite inspection table to measure the board Apr 23 06:55:35 you should put it in a fish bowl full of that non conductive fluid Apr 23 06:55:45 it should be within a few thousandths Apr 23 06:56:31 i could make a waterproof case Apr 23 06:56:35 shawnbon206: make me one while your at it? ;) Apr 23 06:56:42 my friend works for a company who makes waterproof connectors Apr 23 06:56:47 Water proof case + rad Apr 23 06:56:47 guess I will put the BBB on a 5V 2A PSU tomorrow to see if it boots or not. Apr 23 06:57:38 Then a alcohol spray like the ricers do on intercoolers Apr 23 06:58:52 EterniaLogic: if it dosnt work on a reliable 1a source i think its not the power Apr 23 06:58:58 well i want to keep it simple and functional. will take too much prototyping to make a waterproof one and will surely add bulk Apr 23 06:59:08 have you tried reburning the sd? Apr 23 07:00:13 The board by itself will never overheat so... that would be the simplest... Apr 23 07:00:44 yes, reburned the sd, nada Apr 23 07:01:20 Earlier I burnt the tar to my SD. Had a good chuckle when I realized it Apr 23 07:09:00 so after i preordered my rev C i learned some retailers have their own anufacturers for BBBs? Apr 23 07:09:17 is SparkFun a reputable supplier? Apr 23 07:09:57 there is aparently some knockoff BBB's being made, but all genuine bbb's are made by the same people Apr 23 07:10:08 oh, okay Apr 23 07:10:09 but yea, sparkfun is reliable Apr 23 07:10:35 ok time to root this router Apr 23 07:10:51 which Apr 23 07:11:02 vizio xwr100 Apr 23 07:17:36 aaand running over 1.5 Amps max now and it isnt doing anything Apr 23 07:17:59 * Dan1 already called that Apr 23 07:18:37 woo, get to ship back after having it for 1 day :x Apr 23 07:19:00 yeah sounds like br0ken then. Apr 23 07:26:51 anyone awake tonight? trying to begin to read up about how the Debian Beta image is constructed, doing "own homework" in a sense, lol Apr 23 07:28:00 not sure if the official BeagleBoard.org Debian Beta image differs from the rootfs image mentioned at http://avedo.net/653/flashing-ubuntu-13-04-or-debian-wheezy-to-the-beaglebone-black-emmc/ but the latter seems to be able to allow the board to shut itself down from the OS, and to reboot (ACPI, I wonder?) Apr 23 07:31:21 I'm trying to build an OS emulator environment, in the same regards - would like to test a Common Lisp implementation to see if it builds successfully on the same LibC toolchain as used on BBB, trying to start from the ground up Apr 23 07:34:39 yay Apr 23 07:35:35 openwrt building woot Apr 23 07:35:40 aosp building too Apr 23 07:42:54 Would anyone know if this page represents the build process for the Debian Beta image ? http://www.elinux.org/BeagleBoardDebian Apr 23 07:43:53 ectally: http://www.elinux.org/Beagleboard:BeagleBoneBlack_Rebuilding_Software_Image should be Apr 23 07:44:00 I see that it indicates a build process for a Debian image for BeagleBoard, just not sure if it would or would not be the exact procedure used for the Debian image at the BB.o `latest-images' page Apr 23 07:44:07 LetoThe2nd: thx Apr 23 07:44:53 LetoThe2nd: Schweet! That's what I was looking for, yay Apr 23 07:45:46 LetoThe2nd: will fetch with GitHub, kind of orbital as a student of DeVry U Online but looking forward to studying the BeagleBoard platform more Apr 23 07:47:26 ectally: in open source, you don't need to be a student of anything to look into things :) Apr 23 07:50:12 LetoThe2nd: indeed Apr 23 07:58:33 Would anyone know if there might be any sort of a call for any architecture documentation about BBB? I'm a fan of SysML -- could make an xref to a nice kindle book about SysML, besides the OMG specs themselves, and there's Modelio as a FOSS platform for SysML and UML modeling -- but I'm not sure if it would be unwelcomed, honestly Apr 23 07:59:15 ...or useful, either. Tonight, I've found the image-builder, uboot, and libsoc repositories, it's a start at least Apr 23 07:59:47 "architecture documentation"? "sysml"? Apr 23 08:00:41 isn't that just buzzwords for "read the manual"? Apr 23 08:00:58 we have a BBB SRM, and for the CPU there's the corresponding TRM. Apr 23 08:01:05 LetoThe2nd: Yeah, like toolchain documentation, and maybe some documentation about the essential "modules" comprising a BBB OS installation, focusing namley on the Debian Beta image. LoL, I've read the SRM, should probably look back to my notes on that Apr 23 08:01:45 ectally: hin: 99% of that CS stuff you learn at school is utterly useless in the real world Apr 23 08:02:01 LetoThe2nd: I like the level of detail about the hardware, in the SRM, trying to get a picture about the software side now Apr 23 08:02:06 ectally: unless you build enterprisy software... but that's a something different than real world Apr 23 08:02:10 KotH: LoL I've studies SysML independently Apr 23 08:02:27 ectally: the software side is a totally standard linux userland Apr 23 08:02:55 no magic there, and no idea what any more buzzwords about it would do good. Apr 23 08:02:57 KotH: IMO, UML resembles Common Lisp's metaclass architecture. I'm sure the latter is not "in vogue," but I'm familiar with it to some extent Apr 23 08:03:11 well, UML and MOF or somesuch, nothing too formal though Apr 23 08:03:40 LetoThe2nd: not trying to just make buzzwords, will avoid further comment Apr 23 08:03:45 ectally: i've been programming for close to 15y now. i have not used anything more than class diagrams ever Apr 23 08:04:28 ectally: there are places where some form or other of digram is usefull. uml gives you a standard way how to describe your stuff. you should not glorify it beyond that Apr 23 08:04:53 KotH: yeah, glorify me instead, as i am your god emperor! Apr 23 08:05:15 ectally: as for the lispy side of things... nice concepts, maybe usefull in some applications, but the world in generall does not use lisp much Apr 23 08:05:39 * KotH sacrifices some chocolate to The Great Worm Apr 23 08:06:34 KotH: thanks! Apr 23 08:06:39 you are welcome :) Apr 23 08:11:17 * nyt- yawns Apr 23 08:12:33 cant wait to dig myself out of code backlog so i can actually make something with my bbb and all the work i put into it Apr 23 08:13:17 * KotH hands nyt- a bar of chocolate Apr 23 08:14:59 ive been eating old oranges :( Apr 23 08:15:02 no good food left in the house Apr 23 09:22:21 hi Apr 23 09:23:38 where can I buy a capacitive touch screen for BBB and a camera cap that can work with both the touch screen and the BBB Apr 23 09:40:18 hello, I'm desperatly looking for a beaglebone black. does someone know of a seller with stock (prefereable europe/germany) or does someone know when revison c will be available= Apr 23 09:41:09 adnc: order now and you will receive it in due time Apr 23 09:41:31 tbr: when is the due time= Apr 23 09:41:32 ? Apr 23 09:43:11 Does PiLFS works for BBB , in this link http://www.intestinate.com/pilfs/guide.html Apr 23 09:43:57 BeagleBoneBlack: hopefully not. Apr 23 09:44:16 adnc: usually 2-3 weeks it seems Apr 23 09:44:20 adnc: about a month, or you can pay twice as much for one as the places that have them in stock Apr 23 09:46:41 LetoThe2nd : I wish if there is an easy way to build LFS for BBB, I tried it for 2 weeks, but my biggest problem was on the kernel I didn't know what options should I choose in the configuration part. Apr 23 09:47:08 BeagleBoneBlack: the omap2 defconfig should get you booting I think Apr 23 09:47:52 BeagleBoneBlack: the kernel config in use for the BBB is totally no secret at all... you can grab the one in use oin the standard debian images, or the one from the yocto project, or... Apr 23 09:47:52 jackmitchell : can I use that with buildroot ?? Apr 23 09:48:20 BeagleBoneBlack: the defconfig is the kernel config, so you use it with the kernel.... Apr 23 09:50:01 thnx all for explaining that point Apr 23 09:50:05 BeagleBoneBlack: you can for example just boot up the debian image and take wahts in /proc/config.gz Apr 23 09:50:19 and boom, now you have a kernel config :) Apr 23 09:50:35 LetoThe2nd : That is amazing Apr 23 09:50:59 BeagleBoneBlack: or even crazier, you can read http://www.elinux.org/Beagleboard:BeagleBoneBlack_Rebuilding_Software_Image and see how that stuff is actually built Apr 23 09:50:59 LetoThe2nd : I will do that right now, thnx a lot Apr 23 09:51:48 BeagleBoneBlack: or, most funky: ti provides a meta-ti layer to magically build all kinds of funny stuff specifically tuned for the BBB :) Apr 23 09:52:01 so no need for half-baked LFS scripts anymore! Apr 23 09:52:38 LetoThe2nd : That is amazing Apr 23 09:53:10 I will read about meta-ti layer Apr 23 09:53:33 BeagleBoneBlack: no, its 2014. we don't need manually copy/pasting build instructions from some lfs book into some terminal anymore. we have automation for that. Apr 23 09:54:28 BeagleBoneBlack: for the layer, googleing and reading "yocto getting started" first is kind of... necessary ;) Apr 23 09:56:03 LetoThe2nd : Do you advise me to go for Yocto project instead of buildroot ?? Apr 23 09:56:19 BeagleBoneBlack: you can interpret it taht way, if you like. Apr 23 09:56:50 BeagleBoneBlack: or read it as "buildroot will probalby work, but yocto sees actual care from ti and is a little bit more powerful." Apr 23 09:57:36 BeagleBoneBlack: or even read it as "have fun and paly with it, but debian is the currently supported main distribution" Apr 23 09:58:01 LetoThe2nd : I will go for it, thnx a lot Apr 23 10:29:51 hi Apr 23 10:30:26 is there is a way to change the boot image of angstrom into an animated image boot Apr 23 10:31:09 the boot logo Apr 23 10:50:23 sure Apr 23 11:06:40 How to change angstrom boot logo ?? Apr 23 11:07:49 that i dont know Apr 23 11:10:20 for u-boot, tkae the source and recompile with whatever image you like Apr 23 11:10:29 for the rest, readup on pslplash Apr 23 11:11:07 LetoThe2nd : does this way allow me to boot with an animated logo ?? Apr 23 11:11:20 BBB_: depends. Apr 23 11:11:34 psplash supports some kind of animation. don't know about u-boot Apr 23 11:12:05 but on the other hand, u-boot plus kernel can be optimized that they reach psplash in less than two seconds or such. Apr 23 11:13:18 LetoThe2nd : This is complicated for me, where do you suggest to start reading about that ?? Apr 23 11:13:41 BBB_: google. Apr 23 11:14:39 plus, changing some boot logo is to be considered amongst the totally least important things that exist. Apr 23 11:15:10 LetoThe2nd: unless you are in managment or marketing. then it's the most important thing that exists Apr 23 11:15:29 as long as you do not know the build process and how to set up your environment in and out, forget about logos. Apr 23 11:16:01 KotH: people that are competent enough to sell things shouldn't have any problems changing a logo quickly. Apr 23 11:16:41 hence, no problems for marketing. if you don't know how to do it, or find out within minutes, you should *not* be in touch with management or marketing. Apr 23 11:17:00 BBB_: here, even a link for you: http://git.yoctoproject.org/cgit/cgit.cgi/psplash/ Apr 23 11:17:04 LetoThe2nd : Actually, I am trying to build a project using BBB and touch screen for my capstone, I need to make look pretty Apr 23 11:17:49 BBB_: sprinkle glitter over it Apr 23 11:18:03 paint it black Apr 23 11:18:09 Apr 23 11:18:51 LetoThe2nd : Thnx a lot Apr 23 11:49:18 LetoThe2nd : Paint it black is a brilliant idea, and I can make my application runs an image for 3 sec, that is great, but how can I paint it black ????? Apr 23 11:52:36 BBB_: buy http://www.amazon.com/Martha-Stewart-32102-2-Ounce-Acrylic/dp/B007C7X862/ref=sr_1_22?ie=UTF8&qid=1398253938&sr=8-22&keywords=wall+paint Apr 23 11:52:41 BBB_: apply at will Apr 23 11:53:29 KotH: and for you: http://www.amazon.com/Martha-Stewart-32176-2-Ounce-Florentine/dp/B007C7XG7S/ref=pd_sim_ac_3?ie=UTF8&refRID=0M1K2QMJA2M8712AW14N Apr 23 11:54:44 PURRRRFECT! Apr 23 11:58:20 Thnx both LetoThe2nd and Koth for your help Apr 23 12:57:00 * nyt- yawns Apr 23 12:57:01 morning Apr 23 13:00:41 * Dan1 waves to nyt- Apr 23 13:19:14 morning nyt- Apr 23 13:32:40 Has anyone had problems with the Beaglebone Black not starting up after issuing a 'sudo reboot'(i was using SSH)? I'm running my bone as a server using RCN's debian wheezy(3.8.13-bone32). The bone is powered through USB with 1A. Ethernet and a USB flash drive is connected. Apr 23 13:33:55 Only happens once in a while. Turning the power off and on makes it start. Apr 23 13:34:58 Lazetastic: yea mine is doing the same thing, but 99% of the time Apr 23 13:35:26 have to manually power cycle it to get it back almost every time Apr 23 13:35:30 no idea why tho Apr 23 13:35:35 :/ Apr 23 13:35:38 its fixed in the later debian dists Apr 23 13:35:39 upgrade Apr 23 13:35:54 according to bug tracker Apr 23 13:35:58 nyt-: you mean ones a week ago? Apr 23 13:36:05 sounds promising.. Apr 23 13:36:12 yes Apr 23 13:36:17 ahhh nice Apr 23 13:36:40 ive not updated mine in about a week, brb tryin it Apr 23 14:18:34 hi! Is it somehow possible to modify uEnv.txt in a way that the board boots from the eMMC when it was running from a SD card before and vice-versa? Apr 23 14:19:32 The idea is to have a small system on the eMMC that automatically downloads a new image for the SD card, flashes it and reboots back into the SD card. All that without human interaction Apr 23 14:20:20 I don't have a cable to access the serial console right now, so I can't test stuff on the uBoot command line :/ Apr 23 14:30:48 can any one please explain me the function of spi modes of beaglebonebalck Apr 23 14:41:08 nyt-: nope, mine still refuses to reboot from cli Apr 23 16:06:43 so i heard they are upping the onboard flash... any confirmations? Apr 23 16:07:47 JarrettV: yes they are making a 4gb version. Heard it on Adafruit: Ask an Engineer show Apr 23 16:08:31 thats awesome, 2gb was really pushing it unless you went for a tiny distro Apr 23 16:29:46 JarrettV, Yes. See this: http://www.elinux.org/Beagleboard:BeagleBoneBlack#Revision_C_.28Pending.29 Apr 23 17:42:43 expanding the emmc partitions onto an SD works great, so the 2gb to 4gb isn't all that significant Apr 23 17:49:28 As I understand it the real reason was that the 2G part was no longer available in quantity and so they had to move to the 4G flash just as a practical matter of manufacturing. Apr 23 17:54:28 Hi, I was wondering if anybody could tell me if the beaglebone black has any low-level proprietary requirements (like proprietary firmware blobs loaded by the kernel or proprietary microcode installed with/by the bootloader). Apr 23 17:55:24 jgay: no. the bootloader is closed source (open documentation), but no closed blobs are required. Apr 23 17:55:31 that is, the ROM'd bootloader. Apr 23 17:55:39 the device boots from mainline u-boot. Apr 23 17:55:51 that's prior to MLO though, correct? Apr 23 17:56:00 with no closed source blobs required to boot. Apr 23 17:56:13 thurgood: yes, the ROM is ahead of MLO/SPL... Apr 23 17:56:21 MLO/SPL is now part of the u-boot mainline. Apr 23 17:56:38 thurgood: no x-loader is required anymore thanks to u-boot SPL. Apr 23 17:57:27 * thurgood is still on a xM-based board with 3.2 kernel ~.~ Apr 23 17:57:28 jgay: so, there are no low-level proprietary requirements. Apr 23 17:57:51 jkridner, but what do you mean when you say "the bootloader is closed source" Apr 23 17:58:28 the firmware that resides on the chip itself to bring it up Apr 23 17:59:03 thurgood: true, but that ships with the device and is documented. Apr 23 17:59:10 * jkridner wishes the source for it was open. Apr 23 17:59:35 thurgood: and, it isn't required after boot and doesn't leave any running microcode around. Apr 23 18:00:29 jkridner, oh, neat, that is good news Apr 23 18:01:16 jkridner, I'm asking because I am in charge of a certification program that the free software foundation runs and I am interested in seeing if it can be certified Apr 23 18:03:06 jkridner, it seems like it can meet all of our criteria http://www.fsf.org/resources/hw/endorsement/criteria ... do you have a recommendation on who I might contact at the beagleboard.org foundation? Apr 23 18:03:22 jgay: I'm on the board of the foundation. Apr 23 18:03:32 the board is me, gerald and clint right now... Apr 23 18:03:57 still trying to make the by-laws more established/open. Apr 23 18:05:13 jkridner, cool. I know how that can go ... governance type issues is always hardest when your mission is doing well :-) Apr 23 18:05:21 jgay: there is an SGX chunk of hardware that we don't have documentation for, but beagleboard.org just avoids shipping any firmware for it as of now. Apr 23 18:05:44 jkridner, that is probably OK with us in terms of certification requirements. Apr 23 18:05:53 jgay: yeah, I know the FSF must have a lot of sympathy for that, which is why I bring it up. :-) Apr 23 18:05:55 jkridner, do you think you all would be interested in discussing certification further? Apr 23 18:06:22 I would. I care a lot about free as in freedom. Apr 23 18:08:39 jkridner, great. Apr 23 18:08:40 jgay: we ship with a wide variety of licenses, some viral and some not. Apr 23 18:08:52 do you know much about certifying a Debian system? Apr 23 18:09:03 we rely on much of the Debian upstream packages. Apr 23 18:09:19 we used to rebuild Angstrom from scratch, but we don't do that with Debian. Apr 23 18:09:45 jkridner, yeah, I'm very familiar with Debian Apr 23 18:10:15 jgay: probably would like to get the minnowmax certified as well Apr 23 18:12:06 jgay: regarding the bounty, how much money are we talking about? Apr 23 18:12:27 jkridner, it needn't be money Apr 23 18:12:36 jkridner, we offer GNU Bucks Apr 23 18:13:07 * jkridner hopes that FSF can help people understand why Beagle is so much more open than Pi Apr 23 18:13:21 http://www.gnu.org/help/gnu-bucks.html Apr 23 18:16:12 jkridner, haha, yes, we understand the difference between what you are doing -- and we respect people and orgs who are willing to be uncompromising in order to help push the envelope for end-users and maker/DIY community so they can end-up with more control Apr 23 18:17:05 k. let me know next steps. my contact info is on http://beagleboard.org/about Apr 23 18:20:11 jkridner, so, there is a couple of things we'd probably need to work out Apr 23 18:20:46 jkridner, I imagine with the beaglebone black you'll want to be able to recommend a wider variety of OS, for instance, than what our certification mark allows Apr 23 18:21:30 jgay: are you saying we wouldn't even be able to RECOMMEND other non-free software, even if we only ship with free software? Apr 23 18:21:42 jgay: is there a way to annotate non-free software? Apr 23 18:22:22 it isn't that we want to endorse non-free software, but it does add value to users to know about non-free software that will operate. Apr 23 18:22:28 jkridner, so, first let me say that I think these are marketing issues hat we can work out together Apr 23 18:22:46 jgay: k, more about positioning non-free software? Apr 23 18:23:19 jkridner, right ... and part of this has to do with the bigger purpose of the the RYF certification mark we are trying to put out there Apr 23 18:23:30 jkridner, your market is going to be pretty savvy most likely Apr 23 18:23:59 jgay: many "makers" are still new to open source. Apr 23 18:24:23 jgay: but I think FSF and BeagleBoard.org have similar goals in educating them on what open source is and why it is important. Apr 23 18:24:42 * jkridner hopes FSF guy forgives use of OSS term vs. free software term. ;-) Apr 23 18:25:04 jkridner, no worries, those are different discussions for a different day :-) Apr 23 18:25:11 (language I mean) Apr 23 18:25:21 but, recommending non-free software is tricky Apr 23 18:25:30 Well I won't buy it unless it's certified to work with iPhone(tm). Hmmmph. Apr 23 18:25:35 * myself scuttles back under his bridge Apr 23 18:25:39 you can imagine where in other situations that would make the RYF certification mark kind of meaningless, right? Apr 23 18:25:46 * jkridner pokes myself Apr 23 18:26:32 ow! Apr 23 18:27:03 I'm probably open to some specific suggestions for editing http://beagleboard.org to not "recommend" non-free software, but would want to keep "inform of" non-free software... as in, put in any disclaimers that would insure user would understand what they are giving up by choosing a non-free option. Apr 23 18:27:25 jkridner, right, I understand what you are saying Apr 23 18:27:27 * jkridner wonders if we have the non-free feed in our feed list. Apr 23 18:27:34 jkridner, there are also other options, too Apr 23 18:27:39 I've spent my morning on internal political administrivia, legal wranglings, and personal foibles. I'm in serious "shut up and hack" mode right now, I want to put down the governmental regulations and pick up a soldering iron *so bad*. Apr 23 18:27:50 doing things like commenting out the non-free feed are certainly welcome. Apr 23 18:28:18 myself: you have my permission. ;-) Apr 23 18:29:28 jkridner, for example -- and I'm just throwing this out there in a brainstorm fashion -- but you could imagine a situation where you sell the same device under a different label ... like "beaglebone black libre" ... but that only recommends the use of 100% free software Apr 23 18:29:55 jgay: that isn't going to happen Apr 23 18:31:29 jgay: prpplague currently works for the contract assembly house that manufactures the official BeagleBone Black. Apr 23 18:32:05 * jkridner isn't so sure about the blanket statement, but also isn't so sure it is that good of an approach. Apr 23 18:32:19 jkridner, anyhow, my suggestion above was simply that there are multiple paths that could be taken ... finding ways of working with the current materials you have or creating a paralell label, etc Apr 23 18:32:34 jgay: what's wrong with simply having a different designation on non-free material? Apr 23 18:33:08 jkridner, I'm not sure I know what you mean Apr 23 18:33:39 jgay: what would we need to change on the BeagleBone Black itself? Apr 23 18:34:05 jgay: I'm don't know specifics on what is incompatible with the current product/project/design/site/etc. Apr 23 18:34:21 s/I'm/I/ Apr 23 18:35:59 jkridner, like I said earlier, I was just sharing possible roadblocks ahead Apr 23 18:36:31 how about "Recommending" OSS, but stating "compatibility with" non-free? Apr 23 18:36:47 jgay: well, the sooner we hit them the sooner we know about and can remove them. :-) Apr 23 18:36:59 jkridner, but, for example, "Android on Beagle" might not work for us Apr 23 18:37:22 or Ubuntu, since, we more or less have a boycott on Ubuntu Apr 23 18:37:41 jgay: in what way... saying they exist or "recommending" them? Apr 23 18:38:21 jkridner, factual statements about ports existing are probably OK. It's about what is recommended Apr 23 18:39:07 jkridner, ultimately what we want the RYF certification mark to mean to an end-user is a simple way for them to buy some hardware and follow the advice/instructions of the seller on choosing software for it or running the software provided by the seller Apr 23 18:39:09 k. I think we can "demote" some questionable "promotions" of non-free offerings in most places. Apr 23 18:39:22 I don't see an issue removing them from the home page, for example. Apr 23 18:40:12 If Angstrom and Debian are RFY friendly, I don't see much of an issue with that. Apr 23 18:40:35 If someone writes a book, we don't have control over that, for example. Apr 23 18:41:03 but, we do control the beagleboard.org content to a great extent and I don't mind removing Android, WinCE, Ubuntu, etc. from the home page. Apr 23 18:41:17 I'd still expect them to be acceptable to register on http://beagleboard.org/project Apr 23 18:41:55 wow, thats gross Apr 23 18:42:07 whats the reason for that anti ubuntu attitude ? Apr 23 18:42:16 jkridner, right, I understand the balance you are trying to strike. I think it's great that it supports so many distros Apr 23 18:42:59 policing if non-free status is fine as long as we can have an acceptable remedy when we "mess up". Apr 23 18:43:09 ogra_, you can read more about it here, https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/ubuntu-spyware.html Apr 23 18:43:39 jgay, and how does that make ubuntu "non-free" if you install a system that is identical with a debian install ? Apr 23 18:43:55 hmmm.... anyone having difficulty getting to http://beagleboard.org? Apr 23 18:43:57 to my knowledge there arent and wont be any ubuntu desktop images for the BBB Apr 23 18:44:01 must have been something odd with my DNS. Apr 23 18:44:16 jkridner, works for me Apr 23 18:44:34 unbelivable Apr 23 18:44:37 jkridner, works for me too. Apr 23 18:46:14 ogra_: I don't think an FSF endorsement would matter much to Ubuntu. Apr 23 18:46:26 jgay, you are aware how much ubuntu and canonical have done for arm porting ? that they were the founders of linaro and have been pushing ahrd for standardization on arm ? Apr 23 18:46:59 ogra_: that doesn't really warrent an exception to the fsf standards... Apr 23 18:47:10 *warrant Apr 23 18:47:17 alexanderhiam, what are the fsf standards ? Apr 23 18:47:35 ubuntu offers free software ... pretty much the same selection on the BBB that debian does Apr 23 18:47:53 does distros really matter? Apr 23 18:47:57 there is no way to run an ubuntu desktop on a BBB Apr 23 18:48:03 they are all just userland stirred differently Apr 23 18:48:45 so that "spyware" nonsense is moot ... and i dont see how there are any different licenses in ubuntu than there are in debian if you i.e. install an xfce or lxde desktop install Apr 23 18:49:35 political shit, seriously ... if you care about free/non-free how can you treat an ubuntu install any different on the BBB from a debian one Apr 23 18:50:31 ogra_, I'm with you and what you are saying is what matters -- that you know the subtleties of the situation and can see past the branding and the marketing of the trademark term Ubuntu means you are probably not the part of the public we are worried about reaching Apr 23 18:51:02 just as ds2 says, "does distros really matter". And, in reality, no it doesn't matter. Apr 23 18:52:13 we, the FSF, doesn't endorse/promote Debian, because debian hosts and promotes the use of nonfree and contrib areas ... that being said, it doesn't mean we don't try to find ways to support Debian and to promote the good things they do Apr 23 18:53:28 well, you have to promote something as the default for the BBB ... Apr 23 18:53:36 but, at the same time, I run Debian Apr 23 18:54:08 and there is no conflict there ... I'm not trying to promote it ... but, I know it suffices if I just use the main area that I"ll ahve a 100% free system Apr 23 18:54:09 (assuming you want the recommendation to be any helpful) Apr 23 18:54:27 ogra_, right, and that is the point ... you want to promote a marketable/meaningful name brand, right? Apr 23 18:55:11 i dont want to promote anything ... i'm just surprised that you make any difference between a debian or an ubuntu package even though its the same content ... Apr 23 18:55:43 ogra_, that isn't the level where I am drawing a distinction Apr 23 18:56:23 ogra_, I am drawing a distinction at the level of the principles behind a project and the way a project chooses to identify itself is how I refer to the project Apr 23 18:56:39 you do ... the install process for both is identical (BBB installs have to use debian-installer) , they will install the same set of packages for the selected tasks etc etc Apr 23 18:57:23 Did you all see the new cape http://elinux.org/SMN:SoundsCape Apr 23 18:57:26 ogra_, you have more or less derailed a rather useful discussion so I am going to put it aside for now, ok? :-) Apr 23 18:57:37 sure Apr 23 18:58:11 * ogra_ hopes we'll meet in person one day and can discuss this over a beer ... sorry for interrupting Apr 23 18:58:18 the discussion I would like to have is one in which the Free Software Foundation can help endorse the Beaglebone Black and the awesome things it is trying to do and to promote its choice in values Apr 23 18:58:31 there could arise some issues with cape specific software licensing Apr 23 18:59:52 I suppose someone would have to make sure there was no proprietary sw required by a cape before beagleboard.org could endorse it Apr 23 18:59:57 one way we can do this is by awarding the use of a certification mark ... a certification mark is a mark, which can be certified like a trademark or service mark Apr 23 19:00:10 err not certified, I mean, registered like a trademark Apr 23 19:01:39 jkridner, so, the bottom line is, it seems likely that the Beaglebone Black meets most of our criteria for certification. How factual statements about what distros support the hardware or what books are written about it are organized on the site to meet the marketing criteria is somethign I'm confident we can work out Apr 23 19:02:41 jgay: this is the stuff you are talking about, right: https://www.fsf.org/resources/hw/endorsement/respects-your-freedom? Apr 23 19:03:02 ds2, yes Apr 23 19:04:01 jkridner, I think the next steps are to do certification on the device itself and any software that ships with it. What do you think? Apr 23 19:12:15 jgay: sounds good! Apr 23 19:17:11 jkridner, ok, so, how about I send you an email with our mailing address and recapping what the next steps are? Apr 23 19:17:24 jgay: sounds good Apr 23 19:17:28 jkridner, feel free to message me here or PM me with one or more email addresses you'd like me to email Apr 23 19:32:40 * nyt- yawns Apr 23 19:32:40 hi Apr 23 19:32:51 hello Apr 23 19:33:21 I am new to beagleboard..i dnt know how to start Apr 23 19:33:32 anyone there?? Apr 23 19:33:41 have you searched google for examples of the sort of thing you want to do? Apr 23 19:33:57 yes doing now Apr 23 19:34:24 i have done some arduino projects till now..is it similar? Apr 23 19:44:11 jgay: just start with the one at http://beagleboard.org/about Apr 23 19:44:28 jkridner, ok great, thanks. Apr 23 19:47:36 anyone there? Apr 23 19:47:43 nope. Apr 23 19:49:09 jkridner: get to check out that ruby gem any further? Or was that someone else who said they were going to look at it over the weekend Apr 23 19:50:37 so i killed my angstrom gui with a opkg update. Attempted to reflash angstrom. I see the bb logo on boot, but no hdmi output after that. Any thoughts? Apr 23 21:41:38 hi all Apr 23 21:41:57 how do you guys connect to serial when using a cape? Apr 23 21:44:10 ragnar76: https://www.tindie.com/products/spirilis/beaglebone-black-ftdi-friction-fit/ Apr 23 21:44:16 ragnar76: i found that to be handy Apr 23 21:44:27 ragnar76: I assume you mean on the BBB Apr 23 21:45:15 ragnar76: alternatively, logic supply sells adapter for FTDI cable: http://www.logicsupply.com/phra-6p/ Apr 23 21:47:17 pdp7: i already have a ftdi and $4 is a lot of money for that adapter Apr 23 21:50:26 ragnar76: yeah, ragnar76 its a bit of a bummer... some capes now have slots in them though i'm guessing yours doesn't Apr 23 21:51:13 ragnar76: when i first got BBB and needed FTDI and LCD cape, I could manage to attach LCD cape over the ftdi cable as long as i don't push down all the way Apr 23 21:51:29 it was enough for the pins to make contact with the socket Apr 23 21:51:54 and the cape worked... for the time I need to see the FTDI output, not a permanent solution Apr 23 21:52:24 hm Apr 23 21:52:45 maybe i will find something in my box to solder an adapter Apr 23 21:53:35 * dsmith-work "Grrrr"s at not being able to just use a plain old serial port. Apr 23 21:58:50 dsmith-work: whats wrong? Apr 23 21:59:25 pdp7: fond an ic socket which fits and is bendable Apr 23 22:03:15 but i have to cute the original pins a bit Apr 23 22:07:45 ragnar76: Oh, not much really, just grumbling. I need to get a serial-usb converter instead of just plugging it into a serial port. Apr 23 22:08:05 As in a wires-only cable I can make myself. Apr 23 22:08:15 dsmith-work: ah, ok Apr 23 22:08:37 Probably need to use a max-232 or something if I wanted to do that. Apr 23 22:08:50 Yeah, I have real serial ports. Apr 23 22:10:01 dsmith-work: you are not alone Apr 23 22:10:32 beside my 20 atari computers, my thinkpad (ok, to be honest the ultrabay) has one too Apr 23 22:12:37 I've got this cool rocketport thing. 8 serial. 230K baud. Apr 23 22:27:49 dsmith-work: i've had a look at it. nice and 70 euro (about $100) is not that much Apr 23 22:35:45 yeah \o/ Apr 23 22:35:55 temp, wind, rain all over i2c Apr 23 22:53:33 ragnar76: Nice. Apr 23 23:17:35 now the software part using lighthttp/php Apr 24 01:56:17 wheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee Apr 24 01:56:23 Battery power AND USB working! Apr 24 01:57:18 yea but does it suspend and resume? hehe Apr 24 01:57:35 * ds2 points to that 40ft pole Apr 24 01:57:37 ;) Apr 24 01:58:14 actually, suspend and resume works as well as it did before the mod Apr 24 02:02:32 ds2: am335x board? Apr 24 02:02:43 BBB specifically. Apr 24 02:03:22 ds2: ahh then, i have to ask what kernel are you using? i've never been able to get suspend/resume to work reliably for me on bbb Apr 24 02:03:32 Rowboat aka 3.2 Apr 24 02:03:39 ahh Apr 24 02:03:54 don't care for suspend/resume for this stage Apr 24 02:04:48 my power gating on my board has issues anyways Apr 24 02:08:03 hello **** ENDING LOGGING AT Thu Apr 24 02:59:58 2014