**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Mon Apr 29 02:59:56 2019 Apr 29 03:03:00 ok Thank you Apr 29 03:03:11 Still I have the issue Apr 29 03:03:19 see you soon' Apr 29 07:47:04 yo anybody awaek? Apr 29 07:50:04 no, we're all an illusion Apr 29 07:50:17 (don't ask to ask, just ask and be patient) Apr 29 07:50:51 Well actually I came to tell. Apr 29 07:52:07 I'm a software guy and a hobbiest linux programmer of 7 years. I recently took an arduino class and learned a bit about circuitry and I have been considering deisgning my own rpi clone with the goal of being smaller than the rpi zero Apr 29 07:52:36 Upon researching some of my designs I found out the beaglebone pocket is actually very similar to my design, and also open source design which I like Apr 29 07:53:16 the beaglebone pocket uses only one usb port like my design is set to be, and a similar form factor, but I think I can design a more efficient beaglebone pocket and I will give my designs freely under the baglebone license Apr 29 07:53:34 I can make that thing either smaller physically or pack more into it like the rpi zero w Apr 29 07:53:43 at least I "think" I can Apr 29 07:53:59 do you think that would be something the beaglebone project would be interested in? Apr 29 07:54:25 lisbeths: interested in terms of what? Apr 29 07:55:12 well I am just a software guy and I am not really capable of manufacturing any of my designs, so when I design hardware i try to give my hardware ideas to hardware guys and hope they do something with it Apr 29 07:55:49 lisbeths: to be very honest, of you do not have substantial hw experience, your design will probably not meet the requirements for a real product. so it would be probably recognized as a "hey, somebody thinks this canbe done this way" project, but i doubt that anybody will jump on it and start manufacturing. Apr 29 07:56:37 Perhaps not, I'd like to try though because I think my idea is fairly good at shrinkifying the thing and producing either a smaller or more capable beaglebone pocket Apr 29 07:57:03 lisbeths: if you are just interested in doing HW for learning, i'd rather suggest to do a cape or such that fits your specific wishes. Apr 29 07:57:47 lisbeths: well of course go ahead and try, but i seriously doubt that i would be picked up and turned into a "beagle" product. so much for a fair warning. Apr 29 07:58:06 well one of my main ideas has to do with bit shift registers Apr 29 07:58:27 I don't know if this works how I think it does but afaik bit shift registers can extend IO pins Apr 29 07:59:04 So i was thinking about a piece of code that when you do the sort of digitalRead(pin17); it will bitshift in 17 times expecting a daisy chain of bit shift registers to be there Apr 29 07:59:13 they can be used to do that. but this is has some drawbacks too, and it is not an exactly new technique Apr 29 07:59:26 and you really don't need a new system board for it. Apr 29 07:59:40 If the drawbacks are too much then it won't work an I don't think my idea is new, but I think my idea is still slightly different than the status quo Apr 29 07:59:57 well then go ahead. Apr 29 08:00:35 The kind of idea is to design the pins explicity for use of daisy chaining bit shifters, and to target by default a specific bit shifter, probably an open one that can shift in and out and is cost effective and etc. And you can change it inthe program which type of bit shifter you are targeting or else set them to normal gpio Apr 29 08:01:02 And so if you purchase the thing online and purchase the shift registers it is supposed to target, you can just plug them straight in right out of the box and not have to worry about if they work Apr 29 08:01:14 like "by default" they use x bit shift register Apr 29 08:01:18 lisbeths: sounds a) slow b) expensive. Apr 29 08:01:39 True about the slow. I can live with expensive for my own design. Is there a faster way to extend pins? Apr 29 08:02:43 lisbeths: shift registers and their pcb real estate do not come for free, and daisychaining shift registers is too slow for many use cases, and also not really deterministic. so anything along those lines would probably be more of a proof-of-concept for your own needs anyways. Apr 29 08:03:20 I see. This is where my hardware limitations come in. I had to try. And I have a few other ideas Apr 29 08:03:45 So rpi and beagleboard use a package on package design meaning they with soder glue memory directly on top of the processor Apr 29 08:03:55 And I am thinking about a third package on package layer Apr 29 08:04:09 lisbeths: people usually do not "extend pins" for the sake of extending pins, but for archieving things. and so the common way in the industry is to rather look at the real goal, and then decide upon a way to archieve it. if one needs more pins, so be it. if not, then not. Apr 29 08:04:11 so in one version the sd card is either directly on top of memory or on the bottom of the board on the opposite side Apr 29 08:04:22 lisbeths: and now you've totally run off into the land of fantasy. Apr 29 08:04:29 hmm? Apr 29 08:04:41 What about my second idea is fantasy? Apr 29 08:05:37 bgas require substantial amounts of vias, blocking capacitors and all kinds of funny stuff to properly work. the degrees of freedom to add anything directly on "top" or "bottom" are very, very limited. Apr 29 08:06:24 Are you saying it is more far fetched to add it to the opposite side of the board or more far fetched to add a third PoP layer? Apr 29 08:06:57 lisbeths: so the idea to put a card holder directly beather the soc is already quite hilarious (sorry), and putting a third package-on-package layer is outright impossible (unless you run an own semiconductor fab, but in that case, why are you asking us?) Apr 29 08:07:41 Just because no one has decided to fabricate a third PoP layer for storage does not mean that no one in the future will manufacture it. it is forward thinking but I think it should be feasibly possible. I could be wrong though. Apr 29 08:07:57 For example couldn't one thicken the pcb and sort of PoP the pcb? Apr 29 08:08:12 lisbeths: we have seen a fair share of technologies by now. and sure, future will bring new things. Apr 29 08:08:27 lisbeths: i would be delighted to see it being you bringing it to us. Apr 29 08:09:09 One option potentially is if they manufacture a 3 layer PoP with emmc but this would be at these consequences: not being able to change out the storage, taking longer time to reflash the board, and not being able to scale up storage Apr 29 08:09:13 lisbeths: but seriously, at least what you are saying at the moment is nonsensical babbling concerning the physical technologies. Apr 29 08:09:33 I don't think my emmc design is nonesenical at all. in theory the PoP principle can go three high. Apr 29 08:09:37 lisbeths: we have been there. look at the whole omap4xxx family by TI Apr 29 08:09:52 *shurg* whatever you think, young padawan. Apr 29 08:09:56 go ahead. Apr 29 08:10:07 * LetoThe2nd is off to the real world again. Apr 29 08:11:06 Well that was basically it is the mmanufacturing of multiple-high PoP and addign something like emmc. I mean the way i see it if these system on chips keep packing more into a smaller space the real limit is the width and length of a processor. As you approach that limit you are really stuck as to where you can put things. So either it won't get sm Apr 29 08:11:07 aller or they will stack. Apr 29 08:11:30 For example you can print an identical pcb to the beagleboard and sandwich it on the bottom side, and put some electronics inbetween the two layers Apr 29 08:11:41 So it would be like a 3 layer board with the middle one bridging the top and bottom. Apr 29 08:12:11 They now have printable pcbs made out of plastic that are 1 micron thick and have decent sized transistors on them. Apr 29 08:12:50 They even have an arm processor that is completely printable, 1 micron thick, and flexible, but it is still not at the transistor count of scilicon Apr 29 08:14:11 I put alot of info about these printable circuitboards here: https://forthposter.neocities.org/calculatrice/ Apr 29 08:14:22 afaik you can print almost every component of something like a graphing calculator now Apr 29 08:14:54 These aren't just conductive ink but actual semiconductor material Apr 29 08:15:57 anyway that is about the sum of my ideas in order to make it smaller and I hope at least some of those are worth anything Apr 29 08:16:10 Finally I have some questions about the pocket beagle Apr 29 08:17:59 i see alot of fancy pin names on the pocket beagle and I assume they are not all gpio but can do more fancy things. Is it possible to say hook up a display port to the pocket beagle? Apr 29 08:20:36 lisbeths: depends on the type of the display port. and if you mean the litereal "DisplayPort" as standardized by VESA, then the answer is "no" Apr 29 08:20:57 Is it possible to connect a computer monitor at all? Apr 29 08:21:29 lisbeths: depends on your definition of "connect" and "computer monitor" Apr 29 08:21:58 I mean soder on a component that lets me get anything along the lines of displayport, hdmi, or vga and display a desktop environment Apr 29 08:22:31 no. Apr 29 08:22:57 the standard beaglebone has hdmi. Apr 29 08:23:34 can I connect the beaglebone pocket to the terminal on my desktop and access the shell on the beaglebone pocket from there? Apr 29 08:23:48 like say view what emacs is doing on the beaglebone or vim Apr 29 08:24:13 lisbeths: have you even looked at the respective documentation and guides? Apr 29 08:24:40 I am considering purchasing one Apr 29 08:24:44 as opposed to an rpi zero Apr 29 08:24:58 as long as I can access the shell in the thing I can deal with it not having a screen Apr 29 08:25:07 but I need to be able to render ansi applications like emacs on the device itself Apr 29 08:25:25 lisbeths: i tried to answer things again as you have made at least a remote attempt to come back into reality, but i am not going to do the sales handholding, if everything is answered within 5 minutes of doc reading, sorry. Apr 29 08:25:45 look up https://github.com/beagleboard/pocketbeagle/wiki/System-Reference-Manual Apr 29 08:26:15 and look up https://github.com/beagleboard/pocketbeagle/wiki/System-Reference-Manual#31_Whats_In_the_Package Apr 29 08:26:35 lisbeths: if what you read there does not fit your likings, please go buy a rpi zero :) Apr 29 08:27:10 if it can run c# and c++ it is probably suitable for my needs Apr 29 08:27:20 i have no experience of the pocket beagle, but the BBB can be used in a virtually identical way to a pi - perhaps more easily, in some ways. I think the pocket beagle has no ethernet, unsure about wifi, but should have the usb interface. so all the same things should be OK Apr 29 08:28:54 the beagle's usb slave interface means it can be connected to a pc using ip-over-usb. trivial with linux and maybe even possible withe windows or osx Apr 29 08:29:29 The design of the beagleboards is alot more slick than the pi. it's smaller, real time, and does more. The back of the pcb is torally bare on the pocket which shows good design. The click boards are the best version of arduino shields I've ever seen done. So the beagle is looking much nicer to me than the pi zero Apr 29 08:29:40 I'd rather put my money into a group of people with better designs Apr 29 08:30:02 yeah, i'd agree with that. the only downside is less cores on the processor Apr 29 08:30:39 concurrency should still be possible though I think Apr 29 08:31:21 depends on your load, but yes. probably comparable in that sense to the earlier pi s Apr 29 08:32:50 it's probably necessary to buy one and get into the ecosystem but judging from what you've said, that should be worthwhile Apr 29 08:33:30 I am a software guy but I just took an arduino class and now I am sort of making my "gobag" for light electrical stuff and I want it to be fairly minimal. I was gonna do maybe three rpi zeros, use attinys wastefully a transistors, shift registers, and mcus, and just carry around some wire, wirestrippers, and electrical tape. i have really nice elec Apr 29 08:33:30 trical tape that sticks like duct tape. Apr 29 08:33:37 I am no really sure about some things though Apr 29 08:33:59 for example there is this wire glue stuff. And my friend joey who is an EE says not to use it but I figure for my level of design it is not so bad. Apr 29 08:34:15 The benefit of conductive ink and wire glue is to lighten my load becuase coopper wire is heavy Apr 29 08:34:31 the downside is I think it is less performant but I don't know if it matters for what i'd be doing Apr 29 08:34:40 i don't know it, but it sounds like something to make life difficult with unreliable joints etc Apr 29 08:35:28 I don't mind having to soder in the least but there is the issue of making it portable like in a go bag. I am that zombie apocolypse kind of guy and if shit its the fan I am hunting after ham radio operators and choosing sides. Apr 29 08:35:29 i'd go for a bundle of patch wires and a small breadboard, using it as a breakout for the gpio (this will require an adapter for the pin spacing). Apr 29 08:35:49 have a look at the ts100 or ts80 soldering irons Apr 29 08:35:53 I prefer real wire and strippers to patch wire. Apr 29 08:36:21 you're quite right, but so may dev boards have pin headers that patch wires can be useful Apr 29 08:37:10 I will just get some male to female adapters and keep them in my kit. I think though I can soder right onto those. if I am clean with my soder I can desoder it. Apr 29 08:37:20 But male to female adapters should work afaik Apr 29 08:37:41 this ts100 was recommended to me earlier. I really like it but what concerns me is the fan Apr 29 08:37:58 I am not sure what kind of soder to get but I have heard water soluble flux is a good thing Apr 29 08:38:14 and I don't know about the danger of the fumes precisely Apr 29 08:38:30 yes, just don't solder to male headers direct on the board, you'll never get them clean. adapters are fine. soldering male patch cables works well too - all the reliablity of a solder joint but with a protected end that doesn't fray Apr 29 08:39:25 i also like wire-wrap which works well with pin headers. but it's an old technique and the supplies are not as common as they once were Apr 29 08:39:38 you mean like the heat shrink wrap? Apr 29 08:40:28 no, like this https://www.nutsvolts.com/magazine/article/wire_wrap_is_alive_and_well Apr 29 08:40:42 whole computers were built with that in '70s Apr 29 08:40:57 yeah like the original breadboard. I really like that way of doing it actually Apr 29 08:41:08 My main concern with that way is size. But I think I can just wire wrap and then apply a little soder Apr 29 08:41:40 my main concern is the fan. i don't know how these fumes work chemically Apr 29 08:41:40 the originasl breadboiard was nails hammered into board, but yeah, it's a bit like using matrix board Apr 29 08:42:47 i wouldn't use it for a boardful of TTL any more, but to link headers on modules together it's great. and you can always solder one end. The good insulation is also proof against soldering temperatures Apr 29 08:45:29 the way I internally think to do it is to solder on female link headers and then when I am ready to solder, solder my stripped wire directly into the female link header. So if they want to remove it they need to desolder one link header Apr 29 08:47:16 I think soldering into female link headers uses less vertical space too Apr 29 08:47:37 The way i naturally design cabling is all of my wires are always male to male Apr 29 08:49:28 Although that guide on wire wrapping two wires to the same wire is interesting I can achieve the same result by soldering one wire into female and then wrapping wires around that wire at the end of it. Apr 29 08:49:53 and of course everyone has different design. most people who do this have their own dedicated workbench. I just want a go kit to patch things up. Apr 29 08:50:40 I think were wire wrap really shines is using wire wrap protoboards instead of breadboards Apr 29 08:50:45 but thanks for showing me that Apr 29 08:50:58 that will depend a lot on what you're patching. i think most people choose some combination that works for them, but not everbody Apr 29 08:51:59 Mostly digital stuff. No high voltage stuff. Part of it is just to have a go bag incase of the apocalypse Apr 29 08:52:05 you can get up to 3 wires on a standard pin but the headers on dev boards are often shorter. two are usually possible if you're careful Apr 29 08:52:40 The way I gather alot of hardware is proprietary and you have to buy a special piece to reflash something. So part of my goal is to be able to rip out a component and write my own drivers on the fly and replace it Apr 29 08:52:52 I want to replace every computer in my car one day Apr 29 08:54:30 good wire wrap tools are unfortunately expensive : https://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/wire-wrapping-tools/0605239/ Apr 29 08:54:59 Well I should just be able to hook it up to my dremel Apr 29 08:54:59 but these seem to be very similar https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Wire-Wrap-Strip-Unwrap-Tool-Hand-Manual-Winding-Rods-For-WSU-30M-AWG-30-UK-NEW/372648227032?hash=item56c390b0d8:g:zk8AAOSwcT1cq5sl Apr 29 08:55:07 either the same thing or a good clone Apr 29 08:55:14 if you get a good dremel it replaces alot of tools Apr 29 08:55:27 (i have actually bought them, not just looking at the picture) Apr 29 08:55:57 whats that like 20 usd? Apr 29 08:56:24 the ebay one about 15 usd, the RS one about 45 Apr 29 08:57:00 the original WSU-30 was made by OK industries in the states Apr 29 08:58:19 i wouldn't use that with a dremel - it only needs about 6 turns and the pressure is fairly critical. but I'd be interested if you try :) Apr 29 08:58:34 I am looking to buy a sort of super dremel Apr 29 08:58:46 I am willing to pay alot of money for a dremel that is fairly strong but also precise and compact Apr 29 08:58:53 I don't know if that exists Apr 29 08:59:35 you can get fully automatic cut-strip-wrap bits but they're expensive (hundreds) and wear quickly. Only useful if you're doing many boards and profits are dependent on it Apr 29 09:00:00 stripping wires doesn't bother me much Apr 29 09:00:23 Honestly I don't mind hand wrapping either. Apr 29 09:00:35 i'd rate a dremel as 'good hobbyist' rather than professional. Unfortunately, better tools are usually bigger and heavier so not suitable for your portability Apr 29 09:01:15 I am a minimalist and want to live out of a camper on the back of a truck and travel the world in a backpack. So i've got no room in my life for a workbench Apr 29 09:01:25 everything has to fit into a couple of bags Apr 29 09:01:38 which is why I am drawn to a device as versatile as the beagleboard pocket Apr 29 09:02:11 thsat stupid little stripper in the middle of the WSU-30 tool is actually amazingly good. I use it for any stripping job on the thin wire. But you must NEVER use it back to front or it will break in no time Apr 29 09:02:51 I think I might machine my own wire stripper. I don't know. Apr 29 09:02:58 I only ever plan on stripping around 20 guage wire Apr 29 09:03:12 Something as compact as possible and easy to use Apr 29 09:03:31 i am looking at something like this size or smaller: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B078B5G4B2/ref=ox_sc_act_title_5?smid=A29WEAAEUZOPKR&psc=1 Apr 29 09:04:08 wire-wrap is built around 30 gauge. it's not just widing wire around a post : the wire is squuezed beteen pst and tool,. making 4 gas-tight cold welds on every turn Apr 29 09:04:20 that's why it's reliable Apr 29 09:04:51 I'll have to learn my wires. basically i want something that fits snug in a breadboard Apr 29 09:05:01 I'll carry like 12 feet of wire around with me Apr 29 09:05:03 yeah, that needs to be thicker Apr 29 09:05:17 I also might want to solder direct into a female end like I mentioned before Apr 29 09:05:27 so it has to have "some" slack or else be so thick that it just sticks Apr 29 09:05:53 try to get ptfe insulation (aircraft wire) so it doesn't melt too easily Apr 29 09:05:53 if it is too thick for something I can sand it down at the end Apr 29 09:06:02 good idea Apr 29 09:06:28 but you probably can't plan all this stuff out. you need some basics and then add / modify as you use it Apr 29 09:08:19 my starting kit is looking like this: 3-5 beagleboard pockets, a soldering iron, either the t series or some butane one, some 10 uf capacitors and a bunch of attinys to wastefuly use as transtors, shift registers, and controllers, around 12 feet of wire, some wire strippers, pliers, and maybe some proto boards Apr 29 09:08:36 that only covers a small range of digital electronics but it is compact and better than going in naked Apr 29 09:09:09 oh and male to female adapters for headers as well as some male headers to attach in Apr 29 09:09:28 they make some industrial grade epoxy conductive glue but you cant get it on amazon or walmart Apr 29 09:09:50 attinys are ok for some small components but pin and power limitiations are a problem. I mostly use transistors to switch larger loads ( > 100mA) Apr 29 09:09:51 the only reason I am considering conductive glue is because I don't know about these soder fumes Apr 29 09:10:18 i want to have maybe 50-200 attinys and their capacitors just sitting in a bag Apr 29 09:10:38 if I can I might go for something beefier and I don't know if you can get one that doesnt need a capacitor Apr 29 09:10:55 i've been soldering without extraction for 50 years and it hasn't killed me yet. But modern lead-free solders are more dangerous as the flux is meantr for industrial environments Apr 29 09:11:18 I thought it was the lead that was dangerous Apr 29 09:11:38 not in any meaningful way. unless you suck it. Apr 29 09:11:57 isnt it illegal now? Apr 29 09:13:04 no, only in new builds - because when all the motherboards are made with leaded solder and dumped in a pit, the lead leeches out and gets to the water supplies. Apr 29 09:13:21 but you can still legally use it for repairs and prototyping Apr 29 09:14:04 and their are lots of exempt industries - especially military and automotive - because unleaded solder isn't reliable enough for high vibration Apr 29 09:14:48 What do you think about something like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ofIkQXWMJiQ Apr 29 09:14:49 if you're not making high-volume printed circuit boards, it's basically rubbish Apr 29 09:15:07 I know it is nice to have lots of different temperatures though I don't know how absolutely necessary it is and this is super portable Apr 29 09:15:52 i do know someone who used to use a gas iron for fixing smd stuff, but i find them a bit clumsy Apr 29 09:16:41 i would look at that ts100, it has a good range of tips and will run off a laptop psu. The ts80 will run off USB3 but is slightly lower power Apr 29 09:17:14 I could charge it over time. I don't plan on using it every day. Apr 29 09:17:35 The ts series is nice Apr 29 09:17:35 yes, as i said it's best to start minimal and add / change what works Apr 29 09:17:45 I have heard 80/20 lead soder is very good Apr 29 09:18:45 I always used to use 60/40 but modern solders are usually called 'eutectic' which is a little different. Haven't tried 80/20 Apr 29 09:19:19 What about this water soluble flux? Apr 29 09:20:21 i'd say the most reliable is 60/40 with a rosin flux, but that's more for repair and old dirty wires. something more specialist is OK for larger scale work Apr 29 09:21:05 it's fine for an industrial process - you don't have to use hydrocarbon cleaners - but pretty irrelevant for small scale Apr 29 09:21:52 this is way off topic for #beagle though, I hope we're not keeping people out that have more relevant things to discuss Apr 29 09:22:00 That's not too surprising. So like lets say i am inside of a trailer or a building/closed space. How can I keep myself safe? Should I carry a portable fan or a gas mask or something? Apr 29 09:22:21 I'll only be soldering maybe 50 connections in one sitting Apr 29 09:22:27 very rarely desoldering Apr 29 09:22:29 i would also recommend you look at the forums on eevblog.com - lots of practical electronics experience there Apr 29 09:22:55 I follow them. I will check their website. Apr 29 09:23:02 You have been very helpful I appreciate your advice. Apr 29 09:23:39 i certainly wouldn't bother unless doing *loads* of soldering or using self-fluxing wire. Then I might keep a window or door open Apr 29 09:24:33 is self fluxing like flux core? Apr 29 09:25:24 I have been known to gently breath out whilst soldering when using particularly nasty fluxes, so I don't breatyhe it in. But that's only when breathing in instantly tastes bad Apr 29 09:26:52 no, self-fluxing wire is used for transformers. it's enamelled copper wire where the insulation itself forms a flux. It can be used as a prototyping wire (like solderingn wire-wrap) but it's not as easy to use as it sounds, and I dislike the fumnes Apr 29 09:27:46 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wiring_pencil Apr 29 09:28:06 I preer wire-wrap, even of I have to strip and solder it Apr 29 09:29:40 what is the advantage to carrying flux as opposed to flux core? Apr 29 09:31:39 flux core is something you can do with solder. I don't think it would be easy in copper. And expensive : you only need the end to be fluxed, not the entire length. that's ok with a cheap enamel coating but cored wire would be very hard to do Apr 29 09:32:23 also, the flux is applied as the solder wire melts. the copper wire doesn't melt, so very little flux would be released Apr 29 09:33:02 what is the advantage to copper wire over solder wire? Apr 29 09:33:23 the point of using it for transformers is that when you have lots of connections to make to the windings, you just dip them in a pot of hot solder and they're tinned Apr 29 09:33:59 copper for the actual wire. solder just for making the joint Apr 29 09:34:19 So if I understand you correctly it is cheaper to have solder wire that is not core and have a small jar of rosin flux, and that lso uses less flux and creates less flux fumes. So that seems like a good idea to me. Apr 29 09:34:36 solder is low melting point, fragile, high resistance and not very good at being wire Apr 29 09:35:03 its just sort of like metal glue Apr 29 09:35:34 copper is high melting point, would need very high temps to amke a joint. Could be spotwelded but that's not done on electronics Apr 29 09:35:43 yeah Apr 29 09:36:01 I just bought a bunch of 20 guage copper wire. Are you saying that wont work as easy with solder? Apr 29 09:36:32 no, I'm saying it won't melt AS solder ! Apr 29 09:36:43 will work great WITH solkder Apr 29 09:37:15 ok cool. Yeah I am not trying to use my solder as wire or anything just to glue the joints Apr 29 09:37:44 I guess flux is that stuff I always see people spreading over their ICs that looks real oily and kinda looks like alcohol Apr 29 09:38:14 yeah you can have separate flux. you can get flux pens that work quite well. but for most jobs cored solder is convenient Apr 29 09:38:45 i've never found a need to flood the area with it, except maybe SMD rework Apr 29 09:38:45 What about liquid flux? Apr 29 09:39:41 again, it's an industrial thing that makes sense of hundreds of boards. and people have found it useful in SMD rework. but for soldering wires it's not really needed or convenient Apr 29 09:41:23 Well I found this video of this dude who found this fancy artist pen thats this brush that bleeds ink into it and he put liquid flux into it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Wv8-O3-sQU Apr 29 09:41:43 and it seems a little easier than the sort of rosin flux pens cause the roxin flux pens can jam up. Apr 29 09:42:03 But afaik i can just heat up the rosin flux pen with the sodering iron Apr 29 09:42:31 sure, I use a small brush with it. but I just don't find it necessary. there seems to be a bit of overuse of it imho, especially for prototype use Apr 29 09:43:13 the way to use a flux pen is to paint the area before you solder, not get the pen hot Apr 29 09:44:12 the idea is that the flux stops air getting to the metal surfaces so they don't oxidise when heated. Bu if they're pre-tinned and clean, cored solder will do fine. Apr 29 09:44:46 the less flux you use, the less you have to clean off Apr 29 09:46:10 it may be that lead-free solders (which are a higher melting point) need more flux. So use leaded solders if you can ! Apr 29 09:46:22 I am willing to take my time and slowly measure out the right ammount of flux. Especially if the flux is the dangerous part. Apr 29 09:47:13 it's not *that* dangerous. You're over-worrying imho Apr 29 09:47:41 well like if I do it in this little camper for multiple years I dunno. I kinda like to overengineer my solutions and try to choose the most general things. Apr 29 09:48:02 I may also be able to use the flux chemical for other purposes in my go bag Apr 29 09:48:11 just open the window. it'll be fine. Apr 29 09:49:41 al the dangers are there because on an industrial scale you create pollution. In a personal sense they're overkill, but the industry loves to sell things on the back of a fashion Apr 29 09:51:24 so you have a production operator that's bending over a soldering bench day in, day out - it's good for them to have an extractor. But if you solder all day, you'll probably do none for the next week. Apr 29 09:51:56 and mostly, you'll just make a dozen joints and then stop Apr 29 09:52:41 60 40 it is then Apr 29 09:52:58 what kind of mcus do you like if not attiny Apr 29 09:54:21 think of all those churches with leaded glass windowframes, and the rainwater washing over them into the soil. But nobody's demolishing chruches, and your lead contribution is hundreds of times smaller. The big worry is the huge pile of unwanted motherboards scrapped in taiwan. Apr 29 09:55:09 the sum of lead on earth remains the same. It's a very stable element kind of like a noble gas but a solid Apr 29 09:55:13 attiny are nice. I only pointed aout that - like any mcu - they have limits to power handling and pin count Apr 29 09:55:35 yeah I realise daisy chaining them liek shift registers would waste alot of pins Apr 29 09:55:42 the sum remains the same but you don't want it cycling through your drinking water Apr 29 09:55:56 lead and carbon belongs underground Apr 29 09:58:54 Hi Apr 29 09:59:44 Is beaglebone black supports Vxworks RTOS Apr 29 09:59:50 ? Apr 29 10:02:21 Is anyone available? Apr 29 10:02:46 I *think* it does rtos Apr 29 10:02:55 I don't know about vxworx. I just started learning about it. Apr 29 10:03:10 There are probably more people talking during the day on american time however there are some people here Apr 29 10:03:21 Yes it is RTOs Apr 29 10:03:51 ok Apr 29 10:07:06 Gaurav__: https://marketplace.windriver.com/index.php?bsp&on=details&bsp=12930 Apr 29 10:07:18 Gaurav__: 3 minutes of googling. where can i send my invoice? Apr 29 10:08:19 I think there is a place in god's heart for wise and helpful engineers Apr 29 10:15:55 I don't know Apr 29 14:10:04 ravikp7: somehow, I'm just finding http://git.omapzoom.org/repo/omapboot.git/?p=repo/omapboot.git;a=summary Apr 29 14:38:24 jkridner: sorry, didn't get it. Is it anyhow related to the BeagleBone AI? Apr 29 14:38:50 I was looking for any starting points for node-beagle-boot for BeagleBone AI. Apr 29 14:39:39 jkridner: any info in the trm? Apr 29 14:39:56 I'm sure... I just haven't tried reading it yet. Apr 29 14:40:05 I was setting up some BeagleBone AI boards in the TI test farm.... Apr 29 14:40:19 and they showed that they already had USB boot working on AM57x devices.... Apr 29 14:40:27 when looking around for how they were doing it.... Apr 29 14:40:29 that utility showed up. Apr 29 14:45:51 jkridner[m]: usb boot on am57xx doesn't resemble usb boot on the am335x... the am335x is pretty much just netbooting (but via rndis instead of via ethernet), which the am572x doesn't support at al (neither via ethernet nor via usb) Apr 29 15:02:46 ravikp7: yeah? going to be lots of new development to support it? Apr 29 15:03:02 jkridner: the code at that repo and trm usb boot section http://www.ti.com/lit/ug/spruhz6k/spruhz6k.pdf talk about using ASIC ID, so looking similar, it'd be a good starting point Apr 29 15:03:03 usb looks more like serial on AM57x? Apr 29 15:05:49 not sure about like serial, but, definitely no net booting here Apr 29 20:13:18 I am learning CAN. Using the diagram https://pasteboard.co/Icqrda1.png I have connected can0 and can1. I have enabled can0 and can1 on BBB. Apr 29 20:13:57 When using cansend can0 123#11.22.33.44.55.66.77.88 Apr 29 20:14:58 I do not see anything at 'candump can0', but i see an infinite activity at can0 tx and rx Apr 29 20:15:14 ... on osciloscope Apr 29 20:15:55 when using cansend can1 123#11.22.33.44.55.66.77.88 I do nt see anything on osciloscope Apr 29 20:19:30 Connecting osciloscope to CANH on the bus, I do see an inifinite activity. Apr 29 20:19:51 Connecting osciloscope to CANL on the bus, I do not see any activity. Apr 29 20:21:53 My 1st question is why I do not see anything on can1 (pins P9.24 and P9.26 on BBB). I recall something zmatt was saying that can1 is screwed on BBB, but I could be wrong Apr 29 20:22:14 what? I definitely never said anything remotely like that Apr 29 20:22:53 OK. Accepted! Apr 29 20:23:17 That's good! Apr 29 20:23:50 That there are 2 can buses Apr 29 20:23:55 also that diagram it for the pocketbeagle, not the BBB Apr 29 20:23:58 *is Apr 29 20:24:09 Yes, i used BBB pins Apr 29 20:24:55 you configured all four pins to CAN mode prior to bringing the interfaces up? (either using config-pin or by enabling the appropriate overlays) Apr 29 20:25:21 yes, I used config-pin Apr 29 20:26:01 checked with your show-pins utility Apr 29 20:26:15 config-pin p9.19 can config-pin p9.20 can config-pin p9.24 can config-pin p9.26 can Apr 29 20:26:53 config-pin p9.19 can; config-pin p9.20 can; config-pin p9.24 can; config-pin p9.26 can; Apr 29 20:41:28 Also, getting back to presumably simpler issue, Apr 29 20:41:31 debian@beaglebone:/sys/class/pwm/pwmchip0$ echo 0 > export Apr 29 20:41:51 -bash: echo: write error: Device or resource busy Apr 29 20:43:30 isn't it just already exported? Apr 29 20:44:40 I do not see any pwm params there Apr 29 20:45:11 BTW, teh same is for other Apr 29 20:45:12 pwmchip0 pwmchip1 pwmchip3 pwmchip4 pwmchip6 pwmchip7 Apr 29 20:45:42 can you pastebin the output of ls -l /sys/class/pwm/* Apr 29 20:46:16 oops, sorry, I do see params in pwm-0:0 Apr 29 20:46:39 :P Apr 29 20:47:18 I do not unbderstand this export business Apr 29 20:47:39 Why do we need this export? And when did it get exported Apr 29 20:48:23 because exporting the pwm channel occupies the corresponding kernel resource and makes the pwm channel unavailable for use by other drivers Apr 29 20:48:49 and there's no kernel driver to export it (analogous to gpio-of-helper for gpio) Apr 29 20:49:01 it most likely got automatically exported using an udev rule Apr 29 20:50:12 Thank you. Apr 29 20:50:41 What is the purpose of 5V pins on BBB? Apr 29 20:52:03 VDD_5V and SYS_5V? Apr 29 20:59:18 zmatt, sorry, I will be unresponsive for 1 hour. Thank you for your help! Apr 29 21:00:06 basically, vdd_5v = input (a way to have a cape power the bbb), sys_5v = output (if the cape needs 5v) Apr 29 22:06:32 So, as far as 5V, I cannot apply sys_5v to any of BBB GPIO and toggle it (using 'value' or pwm)? Apr 29 22:07:01 applying 5v to any I/O of the bbb will destroy the bbb Apr 29 22:11:38 I meant BBB to control GPIO pins using +5v, instead of +3.5V Apr 29 22:11:54 3.3V you mean Apr 29 22:12:38 I'm not sure what you mean by that. if you want to use a gpio to switch 5v, you'll need something like a level shifter or transistor, depending on the application Apr 29 22:13:07 3.3V is a high logic level for 5V logic anyway no ? Apr 29 22:13:14 he can output 3.3V into 5V input pins Apr 29 22:13:19 not always Apr 29 22:13:23 ah :( Apr 29 22:13:31 I understand. Thanks! Apr 29 22:13:40 I've seen V_IH(min) = 3.5V for some 5V logic Apr 29 22:14:10 the BBB supports open collector ? then it's easy to do 5V logic dreamhiker_ Apr 29 22:14:38 you put like a 10K pullup to 5V, if the pin is in floating mode then it's pulled up to 5V, if it's in ground state then it's 0V Apr 29 22:14:47 a diode and a pull-up is one way to make a level shifter Apr 29 22:15:13 don't forget the diode... you're definitely *not* allowed to pull-up a gpio to 5V Apr 29 22:15:22 wait actually no Apr 29 22:15:28 that's for 5V -> 3.3V, not other way around Apr 29 22:15:35 yes Apr 29 22:15:52 but even then aren't the pins 5V tolerant ? Apr 29 22:16:01 they are absolutely not Apr 29 22:16:05 ah Apr 29 22:16:09 not even a little bit Apr 29 22:16:10 mistaking this for another board then Apr 29 22:16:26 yeah so the diode is very needed Apr 29 22:16:31 5v on gpio = crispy fried bbb Apr 29 22:16:35 lol Apr 29 22:17:31 a diode + pullup level shifter only works for going to a lower voltage, not for going to a higher voltage Apr 29 22:23:22 so a diode sending to ground anything higher than 3.3V Apr 29 22:24:52 I'm not sure how you envision that Apr 29 22:25:05 how would it be otherwise ? Apr 29 22:25:13 ? Apr 29 22:25:33 your circuit with diode and pullup, how is it ? Apr 29 22:28:43 ah yeah no ok Apr 29 22:28:56 I was seeking for something complicated Apr 29 22:29:15 https://photos.app.goo.gl/oufmM2CBPPxBGCh1A Apr 29 22:29:43 yes Apr 29 22:30:32 thanks Apr 29 22:31:09 during the time the 5V line is off so diode is forwarding and then the 5V line turns on, the diode will conduct in the reverse direction for a brief amount of time, wouldn't that damage the input gpio ? Apr 29 22:31:18 or it's not long enough to matter Apr 29 22:33:36 you mean like, because there are free carriers or something? I don't really know enough about such finer details of semiconductor junction behaviour, I've definitely never seen it mentioned as a relevant phenomenon Apr 29 22:34:08 I mean the diode turn off time, it's mentionned in datasheets I believe Apr 29 22:34:58 I don't know about the details but it's something about carriers needing to get out yes Apr 29 22:36:56 it seems to be especially a thing for high-current diodes? Apr 29 22:37:17 ah yes, maybe Apr 29 22:37:32 regardless, I'd just use a level shifter in most cases anyway Apr 29 22:37:40 yeah Apr 29 22:38:20 I have a GSM module that requires a bunch of different and weird voltages, I need to get level shifters for each voltage Apr 29 22:38:34 sounds annoying Apr 29 22:38:38 also it requires 2A current at times, I need to power it with a liion or lipo Apr 29 22:38:46 yeah Apr 29 22:39:32 but sending sms is cool Apr 29 22:39:42 I even have a spare SIM card for this Apr 29 22:55:26 sorry zmatt: why on pwm there are 2 pins? For example, pwmchip0 has pins 22/31. Apr 29 22:56:53 pins 22/31 of what? Apr 29 22:57:14 of P9? just multiple mux options Apr 29 22:58:54 sorry: P9.22/P9.31 Apr 29 22:59:02 (you mean of ehrpwm0a, "pwmchip0" doesn't mean anything to me since the pwmchips are numbered in whatever arbitrary order the kernel encounters them, and ehrpwm0 has two pwm outputs) Apr 29 23:00:52 OK. ehrpwm0a Apr 29 23:01:24 why there are 2 pins instead of 1, where another is ground? I am missing something basic Apr 29 23:01:51 "where another is ground?" ? Apr 29 23:02:12 like I said, those two pins are just two mux options for this signal. you can use either one Apr 29 23:02:36 many signals have multiple mux options Apr 29 23:03:25 so if you need to use one of those two pins for a specific function that's only offered on that pin, you can still use the other for ehrpwm0a Apr 29 23:03:45 Thanks! Makes sense. Apr 29 23:04:01 For some strange reason pwm does not show signs of life Apr 29 23:04:48 either you didn't configure the pin using config-pin, or you didn't correctly configure the pwm output :P Apr 29 23:05:06 so with pin-config,do I need to enable just one pin? Apr 29 23:05:21 yes, whichever of the two you want to use Apr 29 23:10:29 still does not work. Maybe it is a wrong assumption that P9.22 belongs to pwm0:0? Apr 29 23:11:12 I have no idea. if you have the latest version of the bb-customizations package, there should be symlinks in /dev/pwm/ Apr 29 23:12:15 You are so smart :) Apr 29 23:18:38 Still problem Apr 29 23:19:02 lrwxrwxrwx 1 root 22 Apr 29 18:43 ecap0 -> /sys/class/pwm/pwm-0:0/ Apr 29 23:19:07 ignore it Apr 29 23:19:18 turns out, your assumption was wrong :) Apr 29 23:19:32 yes Apr 29 23:19:36 lrwxrwxrwx 1 root 22 Apr 29 18:43 ehrpwm0a -> /sys/class/pwm/pwm-1:0/ Apr 29 23:19:47 but I still has an issue Apr 29 23:20:12 echo 1 > enable Apr 29 23:20:20 -bash: echo: write error: Invalid argument Apr 29 23:21:06 . Apr 29 23:21:14 sys/class/pwm/pwmchip1/pwm-1:0 Apr 29 23:21:47 sorry, give me a sec Apr 29 23:23:04 don't you need to be root ? Apr 29 23:23:08 just a thought Apr 29 23:23:19 but it wouldn't be a EINVAL error anyway Apr 29 23:23:45 so, I am in dir /sys/class/pwm/pwm-1:0 Apr 29 23:24:26 echo 1 > enable gives an error: -bash: echo: write error: Invalid argument Apr 29 23:55:16 it works now, but I am a bit confused about all thos symbolic links. Will post the questions tomorrow. Thanks! Apr 30 00:21:56 More BBB info. Apr 30 00:22:09 ! Apr 30 02:46:39 I am in a competition now. Odd days. Anyway, I will lose and enjoy losing. Apr 30 02:53:46 = learning at best (still)! **** ENDING LOGGING AT Tue Apr 30 02:59:57 2019