**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Fri Jul 26 02:59:57 2013
Jul 26 07:17:27 <dimitrk_> goodmorning
Jul 26 08:08:08 <joopmicroop> morning
Jul 26 08:09:33 <pjetr> morning to both
Jul 26 09:07:46 <pjetr> just for laughs: http://www.halfarsedagilemanifesto.org/
Jul 26 09:07:49 <pjetr> :)
Jul 26 09:48:33 <dimitrk_> hhahahahah nice
Jul 26 10:28:21 <dimitrk_> pjetr: did you had any time to take a look on the api viewer? Just asking, no pressure at all
Jul 26 11:15:21 <pjetr> dimitrk_: I've only had time to do a quick read on github. Didn't spot anything during the read
Jul 26 11:16:24 <pjetr> but the repo is on my bookmark-bar :)
Jul 26 12:01:02 <pjetr> yet another offtopic link. But this time a usefull one. http://vimeo.com/70030549
Jul 26 12:01:13 <pjetr> Aral Balkan on good design
Jul 26 12:57:55 <joopmicroop> didn't he origin from the actionscript/flash section? Think I followed a seminary from him
Jul 26 13:01:30 <pjetr> yes he did
Jul 26 13:27:46 <dimitrk_> pjetr:  sorry for the late reply. retrospective & planning 3 hours...
Jul 26 13:28:08 <dimitrk_> bb everyone. Have a nice weekend if I wont see you online
Jul 26 19:24:42 <summatusmentis> enyo Scrollers are the stupidest things every
Jul 26 19:24:46 <summatusmentis> s/every/ever/
Jul 26 19:28:25 <fx1> why would you say that?
Jul 26 19:29:06 <fx1> if you don't like them, you could always wrap iscroll in your own kind. bit of betrayal, but i bet it works great
Jul 26 19:29:14 <summatusmentis> they act differently than other things in enyo
Jul 26 19:29:30 <summatusmentis> in that they absolutely, 100%, always require a fixed height
Jul 26 19:29:33 <fx1> oh yeah, that they do. especially if you need to scroll horizontally
Jul 26 19:29:59 <fx1> you can apply fit to a scroller that is inside a fittable
Jul 26 19:30:03 <summatusmentis> and I haven _never_ been able to get it to work the first time
Jul 26 19:30:05 <summatusmentis> I do
Jul 26 19:32:04 <GodGinrai> lol summatusmentis
Jul 26 19:32:19 <GodGinrai> you and your scrollers XD
Jul 26 19:32:29 <summatusmentis> I'm convinced the problem isn't me anymore
Jul 26 19:32:54 <fx1> I once got about 5 vertical scrollers running inside a massive horizontal scroller
Jul 26 19:33:04 <summatusmentis> oh god
Jul 26 19:33:10 <fx1> I am a sort of wizard, however
Jul 26 19:33:20 <GodGinrai> hehe
Jul 26 19:33:28 <summatusmentis> yer a wizard specy
Jul 26 19:33:30 <fx1> and I used code produced by unicorn tears
Jul 26 19:33:40 <GodGinrai> I never had trouble w/ scrollers, only Lists :P
Jul 26 19:33:59 <summatusmentis> my issues with lists are always scrolling related
Jul 26 19:34:02 <summatusmentis> as it happens
Jul 26 19:34:14 <GodGinrai> lol
Jul 26 19:35:00 <GodGinrai> I want to use MVC, but there is no documentation for it... :(
Jul 26 19:35:15 <summatusmentis> I'm waiting until it's official
Jul 26 19:36:21 <fx1> Lists are tough, you just gotta remember if you want to edit them use a repeater, if you don't use a List
Jul 26 19:36:42 <GodGinrai> Well, I wanted to do that, but the 2.3 timeline has slipped SO much <.<
Jul 26 19:37:06 <fx1> and absolutely do not use Enyo 2.0 beta 3
Jul 26 19:37:15 <summatusmentis> fx1: repeater, or use the prepareRow stuff
Jul 26 19:37:25 <GodGinrai> fx1, I learned this:  If you want to use a List, you're an idiot, use a Repeater
Jul 26 19:38:26 <fx1> lol, using Lists is fine so long as you don't want to manipulate them. Lists are more efficient than Repeaters by FAR when having 100+'s of items
Jul 26 19:38:59 <fx1> but Lists are not designed to be constantly changing individual elements, i found
Jul 26 19:39:11 <GodGinrai> pssh, fx1.  You underestimate the List's ability to fuck with me.
Jul 26 19:39:19 <summatusmentis> ugh
Jul 26 19:39:20 <summatusmentis> there
Jul 26 19:39:22 <GodGinrai> When I tried to use a List, my simple Lists wouldn't even work
Jul 26 19:39:44 <summatusmentis> no clue why I should have to set a fittablerows to height: 100% when fit: true is set inside a fittablecolumnslayout
Jul 26 19:39:51 <fx1> difference: Repeaters render every child in the "EnyoDOM" i call it; Lists only render the current row
Jul 26 19:40:03 <GodGinrai> Everything from not displaying correctly to constantly displaying the same row
Jul 26 19:40:46 <GodGinrai> summatusmentis: o_ô
Jul 26 19:43:23 <fx1> if you want to see a very poor implementation of List where I should have used a Repeater => https://github.com/fxspec06/GameOn/blob/master/srcs/lib/generator.js
Jul 26 19:44:07 <fx1> the thing allows manipulation of the list, meaning you can tap on an item and it highlights it, and you can swap it with another item in the list
Jul 26 19:44:57 <GodGinrai> swapping is built in as of 2.3
Jul 26 19:45:21 <fx1> summatusmentis: fit: true, in a FittableColumnsLayout will stretch it from left to right
Jul 26 19:45:55 <fx1> I believe you need to add the class "enyo-fit" to get it to work properly
Jul 26 19:46:30 <GodGinrai> no
Jul 26 19:46:42 <GodGinrai> you don't use enyo-fit
Jul 26 19:46:45 <GodGinrai> like, ever
Jul 26 19:46:59 <summatusmentis> fx1: but fittable columns are supposed to fill the whole space, yes?
Jul 26 19:47:02 <fx1> psh, you just don't know how to use it
Jul 26 19:47:27 <GodGinrai> summatusmentis: fittablecolumns fits horizontally
Jul 26 19:47:38 <GodGinrai> fittablerows fits vertically
Jul 26 19:47:42 <summatusmentis> but they're columns
Jul 26 19:47:44 <fx1> summatusmentis: only if there is something inside it; columns will fill left to right
Jul 26 19:47:44 <summatusmentis> that's my point
Jul 26 19:47:57 <GodGinrai> fittablerows is height
Jul 26 19:48:00 <summatusmentis> this is stupid
Jul 26 19:48:03 <GodGinrai> fittablecolumns is width
Jul 26 19:48:35 <summatusmentis> yes, I know that
Jul 26 19:48:36 <GodGinrai> It's not stupid, it makes sense XD
Jul 26 19:49:09 <GodGinrai> fittablecolumns only affects the width, so the height has to be handled by the dev
Jul 26 19:49:25 <GodGinrai> just like the dev has to handle width on fittablerows
Jul 26 19:50:52 <fx1> enyo.kind({ name: "App", classes: "enyo-fit", kind: "FittableRows", components: [   {layoutKind: "FittableColumnsLayout", fit: true, style: "background-color: red;"}  ]});
Jul 26 19:51:02 <fx1> will stretch your column both up and right
Jul 26 19:51:12 <fx1> http://jsfiddle.net/Q7Q8z/
Jul 26 19:51:17 <GodGinrai> fx1
Jul 26 19:51:29 <GodGinrai> enyo-fit is only for the outer kind
Jul 26 19:51:41 <GodGinrai> it's for fitting the page
Jul 26 19:51:47 <GodGinrai> if you use it on inner kinds
Jul 26 19:51:54 <fx1> GodGinrai: you can put enyo-fit inside a fittable and it will strecth to the bounds of its container, not the entire page.
Jul 26 19:51:55 <GodGinrai> you Bork you're whole app
Jul 26 19:52:04 <GodGinrai> that is not true
Jul 26 19:52:09 <fx1> It IS true.
Jul 26 19:52:12 <fx1> I have done it
Jul 26 19:52:39 <fx1> All it does is add left: 0; right: 0; top: 0; bottom: 0; and position: absolute; to the CSS.
Jul 26 19:52:50 <GodGinrai> fx1
Jul 26 19:53:01 <fx1> in CSS this will fit its container when used properly.
Jul 26 19:53:05 <GodGinrai> that removes it from the flow
Jul 26 19:53:10 <summatusmentis> whatever, the point is, I fixed it
Jul 26 19:53:16 <GodGinrai> absolute removes it from the flow
Jul 26 19:54:28 <fx1> WRONG.
Jul 26 19:54:30 <fx1> not in every case.
Jul 26 19:54:58 <fx1> http://www.developerfusion.com/code/5405/css-positioning-within-a-container/
Jul 26 19:55:01 * fx1 owned
Jul 26 19:55:34 <fx1> Trust me: I've had to do this for Wild'n Video Poker infinite times
Jul 26 19:55:47 <Roy__> Greetings from O'Hare.
Jul 26 19:56:18 <GodGinrai> hey Roy
Jul 26 19:56:31 <fx1> to get CSS card flipping working, I put elements inside each card IE two suits, two numbers, a front and a back etc... all use crazy CSS positioning, both fixed and absolute, inside relative containers
Jul 26 19:56:46 <fx1> blah blah
Jul 26 19:56:56 <Roy__> blah blah blah
Jul 26 19:57:19 <fx1> here, another one: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/104953/position-an-html-element-relative-to-its-container-using-css
Jul 26 19:57:27 <fx1> "So in that example. the top left corner of #box would be 100px down and 50px left of the top left corner of #container. If #container did not have position: relative set, the coordinates of #box would be relative to the top left corner of the browser view port."
Jul 26 19:57:27 <GodGinrai> Hey Roy__, any news on Enyo or webOS?
Jul 26 19:59:46 <fx1> anyways, the point of the fiddle really was that you can't stretch the FittableColumns vertically unless it's inside a stretched FittableRows. \
Jul 26 20:00:01 <fx1> the use of enyo-fit is trivial
Jul 26 20:00:19 <GodGinrai> fx1: that rule only applies if the ancestor is positioned
Jul 26 20:00:30 <fx1> GodGinrai: duh.
Jul 26 20:00:44 <fx1> That's what I was saying
Jul 26 20:01:13 <fx1> you claimed there were no instances where it wouldn't, and you'd bork the app every time
Jul 26 20:01:54 <GodGinrai> I just said you Bork it
Jul 26 20:01:57 <GodGinrai> not every time
Jul 26 20:02:07 <Roy__> GodGinrai: Lots of great news for Enyo.  We were just out at OSCON promoting Enyo (and I did a book signing with O'Reilly).
Jul 26 20:02:12 <fx1> and I said you wouldn't if you were careful
Jul 26 20:02:15 <Roy__> The new MVC stuff is really looking great.
Jul 26 20:02:22 * fx1 rawr
Jul 26 20:02:29 <GodGinrai> I've helped too many people in this channel w/ problems related to enyo-fit to readily suggest it to people
Jul 26 20:02:39 <Roy__> I have a blog post for Open webOS coming up soon.  I was waiting for some other stuff to fall into place but I'm not going to wait any longer.
Jul 26 20:03:06 <GodGinrai> That's good to hear
Jul 26 20:03:14 <fx1> enyo-fit is fine so long as you understand what it does
Jul 26 20:03:26 <fx1> in many cases it's desirable to use it
Jul 26 20:03:29 <Roy__> Even I don't understand what enyo-fit does. :(
Jul 26 20:03:33 <fx1> in other cases it's not.
Jul 26 20:03:38 <GodGinrai> everything on both fronts had been silent for so long, I was getting worried... ^_^;
Jul 26 20:04:02 <Roy__> I am looking for guest bloggers for Enyo.  Anyone interested?
Jul 26 20:04:11 <Roy__> s/I am/We are/
Jul 26 20:04:29 <Roy__> Whoops, door closed on plane.  Gotta go.
Jul 26 20:04:33 <Roy__> message me
Jul 26 20:04:43 <GodGinrai> k, cya ;)
Jul 26 20:04:54 <fx1> later, have safe flight
Jul 26 20:06:29 * fx1 so hungry
Jul 26 20:07:10 <GodGinrai> fx1: Given some of the problems I've seen people come in with, I retain my stance
Jul 26 20:07:51 <fx1> I've helped people in here too, I find it's better to explain what's happening than avoid it
Jul 26 20:09:15 <GodGinrai> that's fine, fx1.  But you told summatusmentis to use it (which was overkill for what he needed) and then didn't explain what it did until I suggested against using it
Jul 26 20:10:06 <GodGinrai> it's fine to use it in the right place, but when you just need to fill the height, "height: 100%" is a lot simpler, and easier to grasp
Jul 26 20:10:39 <fx1> GodGinrai: that's one opinion. I try to avoid inline styles at all possible.
Jul 26 20:10:54 <fx1> also, my solution was to add a parent FittableRows.
Jul 26 20:11:14 <GodGinrai> who said he needed an inline style?  You ARE allowed to make your own stylesheet.  I don't use any inline styles
Jul 26 20:12:01 <fx1> there's NO NEED to use height: 100% on any fittable object to get it to grow if you do, you're doing it wrong
Jul 26 20:12:27 <fx1> your solution is to use CSS, when an enyo solution is available..
Jul 26 20:12:47 <fx1> that's fine but it doesn't solve the misunderstanding of fittables
Jul 26 20:13:05 <GodGinrai> enyo-fit is CSS...
Jul 26 20:13:29 <fx1> also included in enyo package, and used countless times in both the docs and source.
Jul 26 20:13:31 <GodGinrai> fit: true is the Enyo solution
Jul 26 20:13:46 <fx1> enyo-fit was not my solution, either.
Jul 26 20:14:16 <fx1> i just like to include it in my main kinds and pass it to fittables, it's my practice and i learned it from the docs/source
Jul 26 20:14:38 <GodGinrai> <fx1> I believe you need to add the class "enyo-fit" to get it to work properly
Jul 26 20:14:58 <fx1> did you read what i said when i posted the fiddle?
Jul 26 20:16:35 <fx1> also, it's entirely possible that adding the class "enyo-fit" could solve his problem, it's also possible it could not. hence, the word "believe"
Jul 26 20:16:49 <GodGinrai> lol I did, but I misread your code since it was all on the same line
Jul 26 20:16:51 <fx1> you're trying to argue with me because you dislike the "enyo-fit" class
Jul 26 20:16:59 <fx1> thanks for this.
Jul 26 20:17:04 <GodGinrai> I thought you were putting enyo-fit on the columns
Jul 26 20:18:30 <GodGinrai> and no, I was arguing w/ you because I don't think that it is good practice to teach people to use double-edged swords before they are fully practiced in swinging them
Jul 26 20:19:01 <fx1> and whom was i teaching to use a double edged sword?
Jul 26 20:19:09 <fx1> summatusmentis has been in here long before i ever saw you in here
Jul 26 20:19:32 <GodGinrai> yes he has.  that is certainly true.
Jul 26 20:19:54 <GodGinrai> But that doesn't mean there aren't things that all of us don't know.
Jul 26 20:20:23 <fx1> http://enyojs.com/sampler/ ==> go here, look at the source for practically EVERY kind
Jul 26 20:20:28 <fx1> you will see "enyo-fit"
Jul 26 20:20:43 <fx1> i'm done arguing here. i've had it
Jul 26 20:24:25 <GodGinrai> "arguing"?  I've already admitted I misread your code and that enyo-fit has its uses.  You're the one posing the argument that my suggestion to not use it has no merit
Jul 26 20:45:35 <fx1> because your suggestion to not use it is an overreaction stemming from not understanding how to use it
Jul 26 20:47:01 <GodGinrai> No, I just don't like to teach people to use an axe to open a can
Jul 26 20:47:04 <fx1> you don't need to not use something; just because you don't understand it doesn't mean it can't or shouldn't be used
Jul 26 20:47:19 <fx1> i was not doing that.
Jul 26 20:47:26 <GodGinrai> It leads to the same problems that teaching someone recursion replacing loops does
Jul 26 20:47:44 <GodGinrai> they don't realize the appropriate times to use what they have learned
Jul 26 20:48:01 <fx1> there's nothing wrong with applying enyo-fit class to the container of a fittable. this is GOOD practice
Jul 26 20:49:00 <GodGinrai> as I said: I read your code wrong and didn't realize it was on the container in your code
Jul 26 20:52:19 <fx1> https://github.com/enyojs/enyo/blob/master/samples/ScrollerSample.js
Jul 26 20:53:11 <GodGinrai> anyways, I'm heading out now, cya guys later
Jul 26 20:53:30 <fx1> yep.
Jul 26 21:20:09 <fx1> enyo.sample.PanelsSlidingSample ==> example of enyo-fit class being used non-destructively on both a List and a Scroller inside a double nested panels kind.
**** ENDING LOGGING AT Sat Jul 27 02:59:58 2013