**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Sat Oct 03 02:59:57 2009
Oct 03 07:12:55 <Danicasti> Buongiorno!
Oct 03 07:51:37 <yadnet> good morning !
Oct 03 07:54:18 <yadnet> I'm seeking information to develop a plugin for the 2.0N. I've looked around in the dev wiki, but didn't found anything. Do you have any link for me to start ?
Oct 03 12:09:34 <Emblema> Sera
Oct 03 12:28:02 <chicco> Caio
Oct 03 12:28:03 <chicco> ciao
Oct 03 12:29:04 <chicco> qualcuno parla in italiano o in inglese?
Oct 03 12:29:26 <chicco> Ho una domanda .- I have a question
Oct 03 12:32:06 <chicco> help please!
Oct 03 12:33:27 <chicco> I have a fonera 2.0n. Is possible to access in shh via putty with firmware verions 2.3.0.0 ?
Oct 03 12:34:00 <chicco> Is neccessary versione release 2.3.0.0 RC1 DEV ??
Oct 03 13:34:23 <Danicasti> chicco: si, devi essere in developer mode
Oct 03 13:43:09 <chicco> ciao Danicasti
Oct 03 13:43:28 <chicco> tu hai la fonera 2.0n?
Oct 03 13:44:37 <chicco> nella fonera 2.0g c'era l'opzione per abilitare il developer mode invece sulla 2.0n no però la schermata di fondo è già colore verde
Oct 03 13:48:29 <chicco> mi consigli la         20090909_FON2303_2.3.0._RC1.tgz    o la    20090909_FON2303_2.3.0.1_RC2.tgz  ???
Oct 03 13:50:59 <chicco> Altra domanda .... in ogni modo posso sempre tornare ad installare versioni di firmware precedenti?
Oct 03 17:30:09 <Danicasti> chicco: scarica questa, http://download.fonosfera.org/RC/20090915_FON2303_2.3.0.0_RC4_DEV.tgz  è anche Developer mode, io ho ancora la 2.0g, tra qualche giorno mi arriverà la n :)
Oct 03 20:52:41 <javier> hi all, can i do this modification on the fonera2.0n and expect it to work http://nuwiki.openwrt.org/oldwiki/Repeater
Oct 03 22:21:55 <barbon> hey
Oct 03 23:25:23 <barbon> somesone here?
Oct 03 23:25:34 <barbon> usb stick dont work in new fw
Oct 03 23:25:35 <barbon> :/
Oct 03 23:38:42 <barbon> But there's no sense crying over every mistake
Oct 03 23:38:49 <barbon> You just keep on trying 'till you run out of cake
Oct 03 23:38:56 <barbon> And the science gets done and you make a neat gun
Oct 03 23:39:02 <barbon> For the people who are still alive
Oct 03 23:40:29 <barbon> Now these points of data make a beautiful line
Oct 03 23:40:38 <barbon> And we're out of beta, we're releasing on time
Oct 03 23:40:49 <barbon> So I'm Fon I got burned
Oct 03 23:40:54 <barbon> Think of all the things we learned
Oct 03 23:41:00 <barbon> For the people that are still alive
Oct 03 23:44:44 <xMff> "usb stick dont work in new fw" with that intense amount of details the error is surely fixed asap
Oct 03 23:45:18 <barbon> so this bug is already know?
Oct 03 23:45:23 <barbon> known*
Oct 03 23:46:03 <xMff> no, that was irony - nobody complained about usb disk problems so far if I remember correctly
Oct 03 23:47:36 <barbon> dunno so :/
Oct 03 23:47:52 <barbon> my usb pen work perfectly with old firmware except for the new one
Oct 03 23:48:24 <xMff> what is old, what is new?
Oct 03 23:48:38 <xMff> what is in dmesg, what in logread?
Oct 03 23:48:43 <xMff> what are the symptoms
Oct 03 23:48:48 <xMff> ...
Oct 03 23:48:59 <barbon> lol
Oct 03 23:49:01 <xMff> but don't tell me, write that into a ticket or a post to the mailinglist
Oct 03 23:49:20 <xMff> any developer will ask you the same
Oct 03 23:49:22 <barbon> also it got a curios problem
Oct 03 23:49:30 <barbon> y know hamachi?
Oct 03 23:49:36 <xMff> no
Oct 03 23:49:48 <barbon> is a software for emulate lan in internet
Oct 03 23:50:14 <barbon> i am with this software connect with a fastweb friend
Oct 03 23:50:29 <barbon> with fonera 1, i connect right
Oct 03 23:50:34 <barbon> with fonera 2.0 cant connect to him
Oct 03 23:50:50 <barbon> :/
Oct 03 23:52:21 <barbon> maybe an firewall problem?
Oct 03 23:56:06 <xMff> unlikely
Oct 03 23:56:31 <xMff> hamachi connects an internet server to do the connection handshake
Oct 03 23:57:35 <bridgeguy> anyone gotten the fonera 2.0n to work as a wifi repeater/bridge?
Oct 03 23:57:49 <bridgeguy> im looking at this http://nuwiki.openwrt.org/oldwiki/Repeater
Oct 03 23:57:55 <xMff> http://logmeinwiki.com/wiki/Hamachi:Detailed_Configuration
Oct 03 23:59:10 <xMff> bridgeguy: ralink support is not included in openwrt mainline yet, so don't trust that config examples in the openwrt wiki
Oct 03 23:59:34 <bridgeguy> ok
Oct 03 23:59:52 <bridgeguy> xMff:any other options?
Oct 04 00:00:45 <xMff> can't tell had no access to the 2.0n yet, depends on how the driver is controlled (iw, iwconfig, proprietary...) and whether it supports mbssid (multiple virtual wireless interfaces)
Oct 04 00:02:40 <xMff> okay, seems it can do multiple interfaces (private + public signal)
Oct 04 00:02:57 <xMff> it also supports wifi-wan in dev mode, so it does sta mode as well
Oct 04 00:03:06 <xMff> know you need to find out how to combine them
Oct 04 00:03:30 <xMff> looks like the settings are written to /tmp/RT2860.dat
Oct 04 00:03:50 <xMff> s/know/now/
Oct 04 00:04:44 <xMff> the /etc/config/wireless looks very similar to the openwrt standard
Oct 04 00:04:59 <xMff> so have you tried to setup two unencrypted vaps yet?
Oct 04 00:06:44 <bridgeguy> ok
Oct 04 00:07:43 <bridgeguy> i haven't, its the first time with all this
Oct 04 00:08:13 <xMff> I see
Oct 04 00:08:39 <bridgeguy> why do i need to set up two vaps?
Oct 04 00:09:49 <bridgeguy> perhaps thats not the best question, and i should let you speak instead
Oct 04 00:09:54 <bridgeguy> :)
Oct 04 00:12:11 <xMff> there is no repeater-mode per se
Oct 04 00:12:50 <xMff> a repeater is usually realized by joining two wireless interfaces, one in client mode to get the signal from somewhere else and one in ap-mode to re-broadcast it
Oct 04 00:13:07 <bridgeguy> understood
Oct 04 00:13:24 <bridgeguy> is client mode then = sta mode
Oct 04 00:13:28 <xMff> yes
Oct 04 00:13:31 <bridgeguy> got it
Oct 04 00:13:56 <xMff> I just browsed through some dd-wrt sources, it seems to be possible to do an ap+sta setup
Oct 04 00:14:12 <xMff> but the ralink config is really awkward
Oct 04 00:14:54 <bridgeguy> do you mean /etc/config/network ?
Oct 04 00:15:16 <xMff> no, the /tmp/RT2860.dat which is generated from it
Oct 04 00:15:46 <xMff> the ralink driver expects a file located in /tmp to read its settings from this file
Oct 04 00:16:27 <xMff> that is the only driver I've seen so far which does something like that, other wifi drivers on linux are usually configured using tools like iwconfig, but not an ini-style config file
Oct 04 00:16:53 <bridgeguy> ok
Oct 04 00:17:30 <xMff> however, you said you're a beginner so the hints are probably of no use for you
Oct 04 00:18:08 <bridgeguy> a beginner armed with google these days can do some damage :)
Oct 04 00:19:17 <xMff> the process seems to be something like that: unload the driver (rmmod), create/change the /tmp/RT2860.dat config file, load the driver (insmod)
Oct 04 00:19:20 <bridgeguy> if you can help me learn i can work out the setup
Oct 04 00:20:59 <xMff> fon creates a file like that: http://fonosfera.pastebin.com/m5d8f2e86
Oct 04 00:22:48 <bridgeguy> ok, some sort of config file
Oct 04 00:24:02 <bridgeguy> how do i create the rt2860.dat
Oct 04 00:26:51 <bridgeguy> also what driver are we talking about, and where is it located
Oct 04 00:27:40 <xMff> run lsmod
Oct 04 00:27:58 <xMff> must be something with "ra" in its name
Oct 04 00:28:11 <bridgeguy> ok
Oct 04 00:28:26 <bridgeguy> these are modules running in the kernel...
Oct 04 00:28:32 <xMff> yes
Oct 04 00:28:39 <bridgeguy> and we have to rmmod because you cant modify a running module
Oct 04 00:28:43 <bridgeguy> i guess
Oct 04 00:28:46 <xMff> yes
Oct 04 00:30:08 <xMff> maybe it is called "rt2860v2_ap" ?
Oct 04 00:30:24 <bridgeguy> can i see inside it without rmmod'ing it
Oct 04 00:30:41 <xMff> you can't look inside
Oct 04 00:30:48 <xMff> it is like a dll on windows
Oct 04 00:30:51 <xMff> binary
Oct 04 00:31:20 <xMff> you can only load or unload it :)
Oct 04 00:31:29 <bridgeguy> [also, bridge mode was available in previous firmwares but apparently it didnt work][i guess the idea is to make the wifi uplink to wan, or the bridging mode, available in the GUI, right?
Oct 04 00:31:37 <bridgeguy> ok :)
Oct 04 00:32:10 <xMff> making it available in the gui is the very last step
Oct 04 00:32:25 <xMff> you need to have programming experience to do that
Oct 04 00:32:40 <xMff> you can, however tweak the configuration on the console to do what you want
Oct 04 00:33:04 <bridgeguy> thats a low priority, i just want the functionality right now :) also i love mesh networks, would be great to have a mesh option in foneras
Oct 04 00:33:13 <bridgeguy> and perhaps intelligent mesh in the future
Oct 04 00:33:32 <xMff> worked with meshes already?
Oct 04 00:33:34 <bridgeguy> Ok
Oct 04 00:33:44 <bridgeguy> low priority i meant teh GUI stuff, sorry
Oct 04 00:33:55 * xMff is doing community mesh networks in his home town
Oct 04 00:34:27 <bridgeguy> no but i am very excited by the idea and i understand how they increase mbit/dollar and bandwidth market efficiency
Oct 04 00:34:38 <bridgeguy> awesome!
Oct 04 00:35:15 <bridgeguy> im an aerospace eng., not technically proficient on this really but very much interested
Oct 04 00:35:37 <bridgeguy> where is your hometown
Oct 04 00:35:47 <xMff> Leipzig, eastern germany
Oct 04 00:36:19 <bridgeguy> i dont have an ethernet cable, can i rmmod the rt2860_ap?
Oct 04 00:36:46 <xMff> no
Oct 04 00:37:05 <xMff> that would cut off your connection
Oct 04 00:39:26 <xMff> you can only continue this if you're connected via ethernet
Oct 04 00:39:42 <bridgeguy> i will have to wait until monday
Oct 04 00:39:55 <bridgeguy> perhaps tomorrow though
Oct 04 00:41:02 <bridgeguy> such file, /etc/RT2860.dat doesnt exist in my fonera2n
Oct 04 00:41:52 <xMff> it is in /tmp/ iirc
Oct 04 00:41:56 <xMff> not /etc/
Oct 04 00:42:20 <xMff> it is generated on the fly each time the fonera boots
Oct 04 00:42:59 <xMff> here is an example how a bridge setup /could/ look like http://fonosfera.pastebin.com/m57525740
Oct 04 00:43:05 <bridgeguy> so once i rmmod the ralink driver i modify this file?
Oct 04 00:43:10 <xMff> yes
Oct 04 00:43:20 <xMff> I've stolen the relevant bits from the dd-wrt source code
Oct 04 00:43:33 <xMff> the highlighted lines need to be changed
Oct 04 00:43:45 <xMff> and at the bottom of the file you need to pick one variant
Oct 04 00:43:57 <bridgeguy> and when i insmod the ralink driver , which is insmod [drivername], it will automatically absorb the variations i made on the RT2860.dat?
Oct 04 00:44:17 <xMff> yes, that is what I think will happen
Oct 04 00:44:40 <xMff> when you run "iwconfig" then you should see two networks
Oct 04 00:44:50 <xMff> oh I forgot something
Oct 04 00:46:21 <bridgeguy> i see lots of networks now, lo, imq0, imq1, eth0, eth0.1, eth0.2, ra0, br-lan, ra1, tun-ovpn
Oct 04 00:46:30 <bridgeguy> maybe br-lan is bridge lan
Oct 04 00:49:17 <xMff> http://fonosfera.pastebin.com/m3f198e5d
Oct 04 00:49:30 <xMff> ra0 and ra1 are the wireless interfaces
Oct 04 00:49:43 <xMff> imq0 and imq1 are pseudo-interfaces for QoS
Oct 04 00:49:59 <xMff> tun-ovpn is a vpn interface
Oct 04 00:50:13 <xMff> eth0 is the switch
Oct 04 00:50:25 <xMff> eth0.1 is lan-port, eth0.2 is wan-port
Oct 04 00:50:42 <xMff> br-lan is a software bridge cobbining ra0, ra1 and eth0.1
Oct 04 00:51:15 <drexler> eth0... what is a switch?
Oct 04 00:53:06 <xMff> you don't know what a switch is?
Oct 04 00:53:48 <drexler> in this context, not sure, unless it is the usual meaning
Oct 04 00:54:11 <xMff> well it is a programmable ethernet switch
Oct 04 00:54:54 <xMff> not a simple network card in the traditional sense, but a "card" with multiple port that can be combined into groups of ports
Oct 04 00:55:24 <xMff> one group is forming the lan switch, one "group" contains only one port and acts as wan port
Oct 04 00:55:44 <drexler> ok i understand now
Oct 04 00:58:15 <drexler> so you said i should see two networks after i insmod the ralink driver, but i have all these networks already. what will be the new network
Oct 04 01:00:00 <xMff> problem is that the fon firmware configures both ra0 and ra1 in ap mode
Oct 04 01:00:16 <xMff> and you need either ra0 or ra1 be in client mode
Oct 04 01:01:12 <drexler> i dont intend to use the public wifi signal, so i can sacrifice that, turn it into client mode
Oct 04 01:02:52 <xMff> yes, however you need to be aware that this is highly experimental so to say, maybe you're even the first one trying that (on a fon 2.0n)
Oct 04 01:03:29 <xMff> and I can only guess here since I don't know the driver and have no hardware to try anything of that
Oct 04 01:03:33 <drexler> also i want it to be useful for other people, and others might want to have the public signal too
Oct 04 01:03:58 <xMff> but you can try to talk to blogic tomorrow or sometime next week. he is the main developer
Oct 04 01:04:09 <drexler> ok
Oct 04 01:05:12 <drexler> are ra0 and ra1 just software or do they represent hardware. ie. could we have a ra2 on client mode and ra1 and ra0 on ap mode
Oct 04 01:05:35 <drexler> because they did offer the wifi to wan uplink, ie bridge mode, on earlier firmware versions, even if it didnt work well
Oct 04 01:06:24 <xMff> they're just software
Oct 04 01:07:12 <xMff> hardware wise the available airtime of a single radio chip is separated into timeslices so that it can broadcast and receive two networks simultanously
Oct 04 01:07:26 <drexler> ok
Oct 04 01:08:13 <xMff> therfore you also have certain limitations in repeater mode
Oct 04 01:08:16 <drexler> so they are interfaces
Oct 04 01:08:21 <xMff> both networks need to be on the same channel
Oct 04 01:08:37 <xMff> because the radio chip can't change the frequency on the fly
Oct 04 01:08:42 <drexler> the ap and the client have to be on the same channel?
Oct 04 01:08:46 <xMff> yes
Oct 04 01:08:58 <drexler> i got it, ok
Oct 04 01:09:15 <xMff> true wifi bridges usually have two radio interfaces to workaround that limitation
Oct 04 01:09:43 <drexler> so to bridge, i need to disable either the foneras private or public signal
Oct 04 01:09:48 <drexler> i mean
Oct 04 01:09:52 <drexler> to bridge most effectively
Oct 04 01:10:03 <drexler> i am assuming the fonera has two chips
Oct 04 01:10:19 <drexler> but that might be wrong
Oct 04 01:10:48 <xMff> it has only one
Oct 04 01:10:53 <drexler> ok
Oct 04 01:11:14 <xMff> yes, you need to disable either the private or the public signal
Oct 04 01:11:25 <xMff> I think
Oct 04 01:13:08 <drexler> then for foneros who want to do bridging with the fonera 2n , the channel of the ap will have to change to be equal to the one of the foneras client interface
Oct 04 01:13:19 <xMff> yes
Oct 04 01:13:24 <drexler> ok
Oct 04 01:13:45 <drexler> thanks so much for the help
Oct 04 01:14:16 <drexler> i do hate to leave problems unsolved :) but will talk to blogic
Oct 04 01:15:03 <xMff> it is a bit complex since you need to firmware internals etc.
Oct 04 01:15:12 <xMff> the driver seems to support that which is good
Oct 04 01:15:20 <xMff> but the firmware is not prepared for that
Oct 04 01:15:30 <xMff> so you have to edit some scripts and files to make it work
Oct 04 01:15:45 <xMff> *need to change
Oct 04 01:16:08 <drexler> hmm, so if i modify the driver it still wont work
Oct 04 01:16:17 <drexler> how is the firmware not prepared
Oct 04 01:17:03 <xMff> the script which translates /etc/config/wireless to /tmp/RT2860.dat does not understand the ap + client configuration
Oct 04 01:17:41 <xMff> and the webinterface does not support that either, but this is a secondary problem
Oct 04 01:18:35 <xMff> the driver can handle it and you can enable this behaviour by editing the .dat and realoding the driver
Oct 04 01:18:41 <xMff> but it will be lost on the next reboot
Oct 04 01:19:01 <xMff> since it will be wrongly generated again
Oct 04 01:19:19 <drexler> so apart from the webinterface this is the only problem left?
Oct 04 01:19:23 <xMff> yes
Oct 04 01:19:54 <xMff>  /lib/wifi/rt3052.sh is the offending script which needs to be changed for that
Oct 04 01:19:54 <drexler> and the fix has to be done on /etc/config/wireless for it to be persistent
Oct 04 01:20:58 <drexler> ok i see. i thought it would be done by fixing /etc/config/wireless because of that fix i showed you at the start on openwrt
Oct 04 01:21:51 <xMff> once rt3052.sh is modified, you can change /etc/config/wireless how it is explained in the wiki
Oct 04 01:22:13 <xMff> but right now that does not work since it won't be properly translated
Oct 04 01:22:51 <drexler> i need to learn how to understand the /etc/config/wireless file, what are some google keywords that could help me start on those type of files
Oct 04 01:23:11 <drexler> ie meaning of each element, its parameters
Oct 04 01:23:43 <drexler> then also of course i need to learn to understand the script and what is does wrong, and how to fix it
Oct 04 01:24:52 <xMff> the biggest problem is that there is no real documentation for the target format (RT2860.dat)
Oct 04 01:27:15 <drexler> right, so we have to copy from dd-wrt
Oct 04 01:27:35 <drexler> somebody must know how it works, right?
Oct 04 01:27:42 <xMff> http://svn.dd-wrt.com:8000/dd-wrt/browser/src/router/services/networking/rt2880.c
Oct 04 01:29:53 <drexler> that looks rather involved
Oct 04 01:29:58 <drexler> :)
Oct 04 01:30:08 <drexler> how much time can a solution for this take?
Oct 04 01:31:29 <xMff> depends on the skillset... with the source above as reference and some hardware to fiddle around it can be done a couple of hours I think
Oct 04 01:31:35 <xMff> it is just a shell script after all
Oct 04 01:31:47 <xMff> and most stuff is already working (including the driver itself)
Oct 04 01:32:00 <drexler> i see
Oct 04 01:32:24 <drexler> i have to go to bed, thanks for all the help
Oct 04 01:32:28 <xMff> np
Oct 04 01:32:31 <drexler> will get a cable asap
Oct 04 01:32:49 <drexler> how did you get into mesh networking?
Oct 04 01:33:19 <xMff> I needed internet ;) so I joined the local community here, and got more and more involved over the years
Oct 04 01:33:31 <drexler> whats your technical background
Oct 04 01:33:45 <xMff> software developer
Oct 04 01:33:52 <drexler> ok
Oct 04 01:34:53 <drexler> im starting to learn about mesh networking. i want to understand the basics but im also intrigued as to what the most complex mesh networks that have been built are
Oct 04 01:35:12 <drexler> and what are the most sophisticated algorithms in use to make the routing of info most efficient
Oct 04 01:35:18 <drexler> i think its the future
Oct 04 01:36:31 <xMff> many many papers were written on that topic
Oct 04 01:36:46 <xMff> and many algorithms failed miserably in real world conditions :)
Oct 04 01:36:59 <drexler> thats usually the case :)
Oct 04 01:37:34 <xMff> there are some routing protocol damons around that work well, lookup babel, olsr, batman
Oct 04 01:37:59 <xMff> maybe 11s as well, but that does not scale bayound 32 nodes
Oct 04 01:38:08 <xMff> *beyound
Oct 04 01:39:16 <drexler> im thinking of when would individuals be motivated to isntall a meshing application on their laptops and mobile phones
Oct 04 01:39:51 <xMff> roaming, handover etc. are still big issues today
Oct 04 01:40:20 <xMff> moving nodes in general, the bigger the mesh gets, the longer it takes to flood the topology changes
Oct 04 01:40:50 <drexler> flood the topology?
Oct 04 01:41:09 <drexler> you mean find the optimal routing configurations?
Oct 04 01:41:14 <xMff> yes
Oct 04 01:41:30 <xMff> who is where and what is the best route to that point
Oct 04 01:41:41 <drexler> as computation keeps getting cheaper exponentially, it should allow for smarter and smarter nodes
Oct 04 01:42:04 <drexler> thats an interesting problem
Oct 04 01:42:38 <xMff> also intermediate links tend to fluctuate in quality, making dynamic path-changes necessary
Oct 04 01:44:38 <drexler> there would have to be some redundancy, ie. two pathways at any given time, to account for unpredictability of quality
Oct 04 01:45:01 <xMff> then you need to start weighting them
Oct 04 01:45:23 <xMff> yet another factor to take into account when making routing decisions
Oct 04 01:46:48 <drexler> very interesting stuff...
Oct 04 01:46:56 <drexler> its too late for me unfortunately
Oct 04 01:47:16 <drexler> i hope we can resume at some later point
Oct 04 01:48:42 <xMff> sure
Oct 04 01:49:34 <drexler> Guete Nacht!
Oct 04 01:49:40 <xMff> good night
**** ENDING LOGGING AT Sun Oct 04 02:59:56 2009