**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Wed May 09 03:00:06 2018 May 09 10:39:16 yey my gemini arrived! May 09 10:45:47 all those ppl with their geminis are making my jealous ;) May 09 10:45:56 Whoop! Congratulations :) May 09 10:46:24 I had no idea it would come so soon either! May 09 10:46:30 Mine is one of the wifi-to-4g upgrades, so i'm in the latter batch (and a manual upgrade no less, before the perk became available, so i don't have an order ID to check ;) ) May 09 10:46:37 I'm assuming that the connectivity kit will follow later with the camera May 09 10:47:09 ah. well you won't be disappointed May 09 10:47:43 leinir: I thought it would be tracked on your original order ID May 09 10:48:06 jeffers_: Nice one...enjoy! May 09 10:49:17 I'm not sure if I'm going to stick lineage on first, or debian May 09 10:50:54 adam_b: It looks like it probably is, yeah - it gives me the "your unit is in the 2nd of May production batch" statement :) May 09 11:58:43 jeffers_: mine arrived the day before yesterday, #3968 , and connectivity kit was in box. gotta say that but for the trick hdmi cable (which it seems won't be of much use to me after all), as good or better stuff can be had cheaper. May 09 12:15:51 jeffers_: like depscribe, my accessories came in the same shipment as the gemini itself. as far as i know, camera add-ons will be produced later (still waiting on mine) May 09 12:53:34 alius: Maybe I should query with PC then May 09 13:09:26 the good news is: i have linux! the bad news: i do not have a microscope, so i can't see it well enough to do things like, well, read. gotta change dpi setting. May 09 13:11:07 better use it via ssh anyway.. May 09 13:11:37 https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/HiDPI I expect it applies to debian, too. May 09 13:13:50 i haven't sshed into anything for close to 20 years. what's the gemini likely to be called on the network? May 09 13:16:09 depscribe[m]: check my blog posting May 09 13:16:21 http://coshacks.blogspot.fi/2018/04/gemini-pda-hackers-guide.html May 09 13:17:11 cos-: funny -- i had your page up, and it was the very next line off the bottom of the window! May 09 13:18:52 :) May 09 13:21:19 my laptop has some 250 DPI and it is quite good to look at photos; text is also quite sharp, esp small text. Is 400 DPI providing a noticeable improvement? printers are usually 600 DPI for a reason; it's just that I haven;t worked with a screen over 250 dpi, yet. May 09 13:24:08 My yoga2pro has a stupidly high ppi rating as well, and yeah, it really makes a difference when reading things :) May 09 13:24:41 It's that fluffy retina thing that Apple's come up with which i'm sort of reluctantly accepting as a reasonable concept, even though it's difficult to quite work out numbers on May 09 13:25:08 Basically, at the general usage distance of the device, the resolution is higher than the eye is able to distinguish May 09 13:28:08 i have an ipad mini retina and the resolution is crazy high -- but the icons must be something like 256x256. May 09 13:28:18 mm, what's not on the gemini page, the tech of the screen itself. is it OLED? May 09 13:29:41 this is weird: "no install candidate" for locales May 09 13:30:13 i suspect it's whatever there was a box of at the factory. May 09 13:36:21 i suspect it's whatever there was a box of at the factory. May 09 13:36:26 oops. May 09 13:37:48 depscribe[m]: once you've updated the text on the login screen should be doubled in size, and if you use qterminal after you've set the user shell then you can chooze any text size May 09 13:39:16 yup. when i updated i saw a whole lot of good things scrolling by -- and got worried because i hadn't resized the file system yet. but all went well, i think. May 09 13:40:10 there was plenty of space in the original file system, though we should probably take a leaf out of the raspberrypi folks book and have it auto resize on first boot May 09 13:40:54 the space runs out if you install sailfish (or other distro) in future May 09 13:41:50 i'm just scrolling down the wiki and doing stuff. it's a hoot! May 09 13:41:50 cos-: I meant plenty of space for the first updates and setup and such May 09 13:43:07 yep May 09 13:44:05 i'd like to minimize -- entirely remove if it's possible, though from the wiki i sense that we'll have to keep at least some of it, the android partition. then again, i'd like also to make linux the default boot. but i am concentrating on getting it working now. i can break it later. May 09 13:44:38 depscribe[m]: I've put some extra scatter files up with different bias between space to linux/android May 09 13:45:16 where? May 09 13:45:57 should be linked from the top of the wiki DebianTP page (Flashing) May 09 13:54:13 adam_b: cool -- thanks! have d/l'ed and am off to reflash! May 09 13:54:34 depscribe[m]: but you'll lose all the work you've put into setting it up so far May 09 13:55:18 if your up for the experiment then try swapping (renaming the files) boot-verified.img and linux_boot.img May 09 13:55:44 adam_b: yup. don't mind -- it'll save me a reflash later, after i've done more work. May 09 13:55:44 that 'might' give you the debian by default and android by the side button May 09 13:56:01 depends on what the -verified bit means May 09 13:56:27 might be best to rename the linux_boot.img to just boot.img May 09 13:56:41 then the boot-verified.img to linux_boot.img May 09 13:57:47 as presumably the contents of the linux boot img is not itself verified May 09 14:04:20 it also depends on whether it makes any difference if the scatter file has the type specified as NORMAL or EXT4 May 09 14:05:43 though the recovery partition has a type of normal and dropping the linux boot on top of that worked May 09 14:10:29 i'll just try the new scatter file for now and see what happens. May 09 14:10:55 yea testing things by changing only one variable at a time is best May 09 14:12:28 how many times have you had someone call you on the phone for help with a computer problem, and you're giving them exact key-by-key instructions, and you hear a lot more keyclicks than you should . . . May 09 14:15:12 it seems to boot directly into linux now with the 50_05 scatter file May 09 14:15:40 oh dear, that wasn't the plan May 09 14:17:09 don't worry yet -- i hit the silver button, but the penguin came up instantly, so maybe it's just being extremely responsive. May 09 14:17:46 few, I just double checked the diff and its really only the size/offset values that are changed May 09 14:20:26 did the fs resize first this time May 09 14:21:57 is the boot key issue? shouldn't the device be rebooted only when changing os and that normally doesn't happen very often? May 09 14:23:12 cos-: nah, not a key issue. actually, automagically booting into debian, where i'll have nothing, is almost a security feature. May 09 14:28:05 i'm getting the "Package 'locales' has no installation candidate" error again. set to u.s. server. last time, locales could be installed only after an update, by which time the lack of locales had thrown a heap of errors. May 09 14:43:03 okay, this is strange -- can't connect to any of the repositories. i edited the sources list to change ru to us, which worked last time. May 09 14:44:01 check for a typo anywhere else in that file? (maybe you nudged a key without noticing) May 09 14:45:15 and you did an update after changing that first before trying an upgrade May 09 14:47:17 adam_b: it looks right. and yes, it's on update that it throws the errors. May 09 14:47:58 then try pinging something else to check your still attached to the wifi May 09 14:48:49 i'm hardwired, doing it by ssh. May 09 14:49:42 deb [arch=arm64] http://ftp.us.debian.org/debian stretch main contrib non-free May 09 15:01:34 well the device still needs to be able to see the internet to download things, so over your ssh connection you can still trying pinging things? possibly I don't know what you mean by hardwired... May 09 15:03:16 i'm sshed via usb cable to the gemini from a desktop machine wired to my router. haven't set up wifi on the gemini in linux yet May 09 15:03:45 well then it seems reasonable that you cannot download things? May 09 15:04:41 adam_b: correct. could before, using same sources file May 09 15:04:54 unless there is some magic that lets the device see the internet via the usb cable? (I've not done this ssh'ing down a usb cable thing) May 09 15:05:19 did have wifi set up in android -- don't now -- would that make a difference? May 09 15:05:32 nope that shouldn't affect it May 09 15:05:57 still when your ssh'd in if you type 'ping google.com' does that work? May 09 15:06:41 i'm using the same setup as i did before, when it worked. and am doing everything from a terminal on my desktop. May 09 15:07:08 -bash: ping: command not found May 09 15:07:23 hmmm one of the things that needs installing... May 09 15:08:11 I've always done it that I loging and attach the wifi, then ssh in to configure it May 09 15:08:13 right. hadn't worked my way down to the useful utilities on the wiki yet! May 09 15:09:29 guess we'll have to wait for cos- or TheKit to pop by and advise May 09 15:10:22 problem is, default linux install is too small to do much of anything useful. for instance, the controls at the upper right of the login screen are unresponsive, so i have to log in as gemini and shutdown from the menu. May 09 15:10:46 by too small i mean visually tiny. May 09 15:11:18 maybe i'll try a different server -- uk, say. May 09 15:11:41 yea there are plans to make a new flashable image with all the updates so that things start off sensibly May 09 15:13:23 I did all the updates I wanted to get into TP2 before the latest bunch of devices started shipping, the main aim being to get the keyboard dropdown there from the start so people could use all the keys on their devices May 09 15:14:57 i'm convinced that at some point -- probably the middle of the night -- i'll realize some very stupid mistake i've made. May 09 15:15:20 so the uk one didn't work either May 09 15:16:32 nope May 09 15:16:58 so yea I recon you've lost the internet part of that usb connection, try rebooting things May 09 15:17:16 depscribe: have you ran cmst or `sudo connmanctl state` to see if you are connected to the wifi May 09 15:17:39 zoglesby: he claims not to be on wifi but some magical interenet over usb thing May 09 15:17:56 i'd try to do it from a terminal on the device, but i don't have the characters i need. May 09 15:18:01 Zach Oglesby: i'm not doing it over wifi May 09 15:18:25 well use the connman ui thing to attach wifi May 09 15:18:56 adam_b: the usb networking just really for ssh, it will not provide traffic forwarding as far as I know May 09 15:19:08 yea thats what I thought May 09 15:19:14 but depscribe[m] claims it worked last time May 09 15:19:15 from cos, to wit: May 09 15:19:25 Boot to Linux on Gemini May 09 15:19:25 I mean I am sure you could get that to work, but it would require setup on both sides May 09 15:19:26 Connect USB cable May 09 15:19:26 ssh gemini@10.15.19.82 May 09 15:19:58 worked perfectly last time -- i reflashed to change partition sizes May 09 15:20:21 yea we're not suggesting that the ssh in part is broken, its the back out from the device to the real internet bit we're suggesting you change May 09 15:20:22 depscribe: I don't have that link on hand but he also then outlines how to connect to wifi with connmanctl May 09 15:21:08 okay, will try to set uo wifi. gotta fetch my glasses! May 09 15:21:27 depscribe[m]: from the sounds of it you can do that over the ssh too May 09 15:21:33 (no glasses needed) May 09 15:21:35 depscribe: you can do that from the ssh connection from your PC May 09 15:22:24 I suspect you did that last time, its just that cos didn't update the main DebianTP wiki page so your mixing two different methods each time with things in a different order May 09 15:23:54 okay, fixed. *very red face. May 09 15:24:02 depscribe: https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/ConnMan#Connecting_to_a_protected_access_point May 09 15:24:57 depscribe[m]: no worries, I guess I should have read cos-'s instructions then I'd have known about this usb ssh-in thing May 09 15:27:26 yup -- probably "set up your wireless network first" should be in there someplace. i don't remember having set it up the first time, which i apparently did in the ecstasy of "yippee, linux!" btw -- changing scatter files did not change boot order. May 09 15:29:09 well its suggested, feel free to edit it and make it less 'you may want' and more 'you must'... May 09 15:31:46 i'm thinking cos' hacks. May 09 15:33:37 depscribe: maybe just add the helpful bits to the wiki and we can link people to that rather than cos- blog since the wiki is a living doc and can be chnaged by everyone May 09 15:34:35 good idea. i've made a few notes for incredibly rusty hackers. May 09 15:36:16 USB networking can provide internet access if needed, but needs some manual configuration May 09 15:37:36 TheKit: Sounds good for people who don't have wifi (I don't think we've got the usb ethernet things working yet) May 09 15:39:17 https://bpaste.net/show/d9eb3a86528f May 09 15:40:55 forgot "echo nameserver 8.8.8.8 > /etc/resolv.conf" or whatever DNS if you don't trust Google May 09 15:55:23 i'll update the blog post to point to wiki as needed May 09 16:22:26 adam_b: usb ethernet adapters do not work yet, I'll have to see which modules the kernel needs for that May 09 19:17:42 three more questions: May 09 19:18:24 i'm about to put a 128g microSD card in my gemini. it's formatted exfat. would it be better as, say, ext4? May 09 19:19:22 i hope to have my ~/ reside there, as well as /var/log, symlinked back to where the operating system expects them to be. see any problem with this? May 09 19:20:08 don't worry too much about /var/log the android kernel uses a in memory log for most things May 09 19:20:19 unrelated: i hope to install the tdm window manager and the tde desktop (the fork of kde3) onto gemini. will this likely break any of the hacks you guys have been so carefully applying? May 09 19:21:48 ext4 is probably better unless you want compatibility elsewhere May 09 19:23:08 you are likely to have some issues with tde, probably around the shortcuts area given that current kde+gnome+lxqt all have the bad assumption that a named key only does one thing May 09 19:23:23 our lxqt is patched May 09 19:24:51 depscribe[m], another issue is that TDE comes way before HiDPI become used May 09 19:25:01 you will need to do something about scaling May 09 19:25:46 okay, i'll save that for another day. do you know if there's a dpi adjustment in lxqt? May 09 19:27:14 you can install more than one and just pick from the login screen to try things out, sounds like things will be tiny and the r key will be eaten May 09 19:27:15 currently it's set for scaling twice May 09 19:27:29 I guess depscribe[m] wants x3 or x4? May 09 19:27:38 to avoid wearing glasses May 09 19:27:55 I think current TP2 has /usr/bin/Xorg edited to force 192, and then we added that to sddm.conf? May 09 19:28:42 TheKit: does it have xinitrc.d or Xclients.d? May 09 19:28:42 i'm going to wear glasses either way -- i just don't want to have to wear the ones that look like two small microscopes! May 09 19:29:01 i set the dpi in the xorg init files May 09 19:29:17 but beware that even with 2x it's already virtual 1080x540 May 09 19:29:30 maybe tweaking fonts is a better idea to avoid limiting screen space May 09 19:30:12 limited vertical resolution is an issue with many apps, for example Connman UI May 09 19:31:06 * TheKit remembers 800x480 EeePC May 09 19:31:15 okay, i'll try to tweak the fonts. the window furniture is pretty tiny as well in some applications, but you're right -- don't want to end up with 640x320! May 09 19:31:46 *depscribe still has a libretto 800x480 May 09 19:31:49 once you know what file to tweak you can try a few different values May 09 19:32:19 akik, didn't check actually May 09 19:32:57 i tried going in through the preferences in lxqt and didn't immediately find it, but i'll poke around some more. no big deal. May 09 19:33:00 do you use xrandr to set dpi in xinitrc.d? May 09 19:33:15 TheKit: yes May 09 19:33:16 no. May 09 19:33:26 this was to akik May 09 19:33:45 to play with DPI on Gemini for now, nano /usr/bin/Xorg (I know it's a hack) May 09 19:33:49 TheKit: but this is on my laptop(s). haven't received the gemini yet May 09 19:34:07 yup. i saw. sorry. May 09 19:44:16 in lxqt settings, resolution is set to 96 dpi by default. May 09 20:10:25 what is the preferred mail client for lxqt? (i just went looking for mail clients in synaptic, which must be seen to be believed -- i didn't know there was a font that small!) May 09 20:14:09 is Synaptic GTK+2 app? May 09 20:19:10 dunno. it's the debian package manager and it's installed by default. May 09 20:24:19 is this going to be an issue with all gtk applications? May 09 20:30:26 gemini should have easily enough power to run modern desktops once acceleration works, so i don't see much point in putting effort to lxqt May 09 20:32:08 it's a bit complicated topic, since currently it "works" May 09 20:32:20 cos-: I don't particularly want any of the current desktop environments, I consider lxqt to be a blank canvas upon which to make a proper keyboard friendly environment May 09 20:32:24 what runs really nice is KWIn on Wayland with hwcomposer May 09 20:32:33 *KWin May 09 20:32:41 wayland is the future :) May 09 20:32:49 but last time I tried (on Ubuntu 17.04) it was crashy, which needs debugging May 09 20:32:59 *17.10 May 09 20:34:19 i just want to do work -- which is why i've stayed with the fork of kde3 for my desktop machine. May 09 20:35:03 I guess for anyone who wants to try with Wayland/more heavy environments I'm going to build buster-based rootfs soon May 09 20:35:31 latest Qt improves QtQuick/QML speed on aarch64 May 09 20:37:21 TheKit: what's buster? May 09 20:37:32 Debian 10 May 09 20:37:39 oh May 09 20:37:57 also, just gave it a few more tries--the kernel built with gcc 7.3 definitely doesn't work, just reboots May 09 20:38:04 adam_b: ok. but it can be assumed that most users want gnome, kde plasma or cinnamon May 09 20:38:19 we've been slowing adding all the packages on the build server to the buster build, though need to change some of the code too May 09 20:38:34 cos-: then its upto those that want to make what they want May 09 20:39:01 maybe bisecting gcc versions is reasonable, since TheKit says it booted when built with gcc 6.4.0 May 09 20:39:15 yep, of course. but the basic stuff (acceleration, hw support, etc) will benefit all desktops. May 09 20:39:44 the problem is that if going Wayland, each desktop will need its own code :( May 09 20:40:28 MonkeyofDoom, try using Linaro toolchain just in case May 09 20:40:46 TheKit: which is that? May 09 20:41:09 https://releases.linaro.org/components/toolchain/binaries/latest/ May 09 20:41:15 cos-: also people might think they want those things, but they will never be as good an experience as something built especially for this form factor May 09 20:41:37 sure May 09 20:48:32 the preferences menu in lxqt contains "KDE System Settings" -- what's this for? do i have a whole big hunk of kde installed? May 09 20:51:25 kwin is from KDE May 09 20:54:49 does this mean that kde applications (i'm thinking kmail) can be installed without their bringing a bunch of new stuff, or are the underpinnings there? May 09 20:56:22 does the debian adduser take care of editing the /etc/group file as well? May 09 20:58:36 https://github.com/dguidipc/gemini-lk/blob/master/lk/platform/mt6797/boot_mode_menu.c - it seems bootloader does support very minimal boot menu May 09 21:02:01 whats the difference between fastboot and normal boot (other than speed) May 09 21:02:17 fastboot is not about speed, it's a special flashing mode for Android May 09 21:02:46 what a crazy name for it then May 09 21:04:02 actually it has a nice feature to boot kernel from USB May 09 21:04:32 maybe that's where the name is from May 09 21:36:07 well. turns out the adduser command does not edit /etc/groups. how do we dump out of a black screen with a mouse cursor? May 09 21:36:19 groups=group May 09 21:37:48 depscribe[m]: you'll need to reboot (hold esc key for 15 seconds or so) and login as gemini user May 09 21:41:41 lxc-stop -k --name android is a bit brute, but probably is less evil than reboot by Esc key May 09 21:51:56 TheKit (IRC): i figured alt-ctrl-bksp, which reminded me the bksp is also the del on gemini May 09 23:13:40 is there a way yet to turn off the blue led? it's kind of irritating after awhile (and with the over-bright screen contributes to the reported difficulty in seeing the keyboard). i know work is being done on it, just don't know if there is a switch in the configuration someplace yet. May 09 23:16:00 depscribe[m]: you can run "echo 0 > /proc/aw9120_value" in a terminal May 09 23:17:09 no config switch yet, I'm still rewriting the driver May 09 23:17:31 (presently ripping out the custom i2c code as I think it should be possible to reuse existing Linux abstractions) May 09 23:20:41 MonkeyofDoom (IRC): thanks. **** ENDING LOGGING AT Thu May 10 03:00:01 2018