**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Fri Jun 15 03:00:11 2018 Jun 15 04:03:35 dep, please make sure if /usr/lib/chromium/libEGL.so/libGLESv2.so symlinks are intact Jun 15 05:15:16 Hi, I'm dual-booting Debian and after updating everything, I'm stuck at the bootloader screen with the Planet Computers logo and the penguin. Can I somehow enable non-graphical boot? I'm also trying to SSH to the USB network connection but having no luck with that on Windows, going to try on linux in a min. Jun 15 05:17:40 really wish it just had a normal bootloader menu like grub instead of this button holding business too. I keep getting into "No command" android recovery and from there it boot-loops. I end up having to let Android boot, log in, shut that down, then try again. Jun 15 05:20:36 hah, can SSH into this just fine on linux. Jun 15 05:28:14 fixed. In my case, /var/log/Xorg.0.log held the error (I tried to set up capslock as an additional control). I fixed /etc/X11/xorg.conf and now it boots to the login screen :) Jun 15 07:55:58 TheKit[m]: yeah quassel works well for me. Core running on a cloud vm, and I like the fact multiple clients can maintain the same view easily. I use IRC for work, so its kinda handy that for that reason Im always catching the backscroll in here too! Jun 15 08:02:09 TheKit[m]: setting the portmode to UART manually didn't work... it shows nothing on serial console Jun 15 08:04:48 one thing... I used a "prolific" usb>uart controller, and set the voltage of RX/TX to 1.8v... I wonder if 3.3v is needed instead of 1.8v in order to get the cable detected Jun 15 08:51:57 Hmm.. I suppose that there is no way of giving custom resolution to the hdmi output on android? Jun 15 08:52:27 It would be nicer to have the screen show the full 1920x1080 or 1200 area. Jun 15 08:56:47 NotKit, TheKit[m], greguu: I think for USB/UART to work the USB data lines should be leveled at 3.3V... curious to know about other opinions though, before I try Jun 15 08:58:19 reading here, the USB port should at least survive the 3.3v -> https://www.beyondlogic.org/usbnutshell/usb2.shtml Jun 15 09:03:45 I think that some usb data solutions use 3.3V Jun 15 09:04:37 And I think that most of usb solutions will actually survive even 5V, but i wouldn't push it. Jun 15 09:55:14 razumihin, thanks... I tried using 3.3v on the RX/TX data lines, but it makes no difference... still no output on the serial console Jun 15 10:01:40 the USB/UART would have been a nice solution, compared to the soldering of wires on the mainboard Jun 15 10:09:03 After I started the update. My gemini only wants to boot to the recovery mode Jun 15 10:09:32 It's probably because I have TWRP. Anyone have an idea of how to get out? Jun 15 10:10:46 reflash the normal recovery Jun 15 10:12:03 In case you have made /any/ alterations to your boot process, you cannot use the update functionality on the device and will need to perform the update manually... Jun 15 10:12:43 (unsurprisingly, i thought, but going by the number of people who seem to be running into the problem, i guess not so much ;) ) Jun 15 10:39:16 ok, i'll flash back the stock recovery and see how it goes Jun 15 10:39:40 I've done this in the past, where an official OTA update worked through TWRP Jun 15 11:47:29 Omegamoon: do you have a oscilloskop? Jun 15 12:00:35 Omegamoon: USB data lines are always 3.3V Jun 15 12:07:19 is there a board somewhere on OESF or elsewhere for selling these things? Jun 15 12:08:28 i want to sell mine asap Jun 15 12:08:36 Can you get the update images from somewhere? Jun 15 12:09:52 and i'll have a connectivity pack to sell as well if it ever ships Jun 15 12:14:48 you were the german guy with the US keyboard which went through HK instead ok London, right? Jun 15 12:36:17 TheKit : Sorry to be late to the party -- was night here. Yes, symlinks still exist. Jun 15 12:38:53 fakefur : there's a for sale forum on OESF. Jun 15 12:56:45 yes Jun 15 13:00:53 https://finance.yahoo.com/news/folding-andromeda-device-could-microsoft-182654419.html Jun 15 13:02:11 not sure if that's actually a keyboard or a touch screen Jun 15 13:02:50 seems to be a touch screen Jun 15 13:06:36 mifritscher not german and not a guy but otherwise yes :) Jun 15 13:30:57 mifritscher: no oscilloskop here I'm afraid Jun 15 13:32:45 ali1234: yes, that was my conclusion also... but switching the serial breakout board to 3.3v didn't make any difference... the cable is not recognized during early boot, and manually switching the "portmode" from command line has no effect as well Jun 15 13:33:11 under linux I used: echo 1 > /sys/devices/soc/11270000.usb3/musb-hdrc/portmode Jun 15 13:33:26 under android I used: setprop mediatek.usb.port.mode uart Jun 15 13:34:17 I assumed the port is ttyMT3, but tried ttyMT0,1 and 2 as well Jun 15 13:34:51 at one point it hangs the device, so it _does_ something :-/ Jun 15 13:37:32 well you probably need to patch lk to make it print stuff on the serial cable Jun 15 13:37:40 i dunno... Jun 15 13:46:48 ali1234, no... the preloader has a "detection" mechanism for USB/UART Jun 15 13:48:54 i've been working only on my git reconstruction tool for the past week Jun 15 13:49:10 it's stupidly fast now. like under 10 minutes Jun 15 13:56:53 ali1234: realy nice to have git history, great job! Jun 15 15:57:54 does anyone have any news on linux on a wifi only gemini? Jun 15 16:10:55 not that you'd want it though. it's nearly impossible to boot to linux if you have it installed Jun 15 16:11:27 the instructions say you should hold both power and side button, release power after 1 sec, and release side button as soon as the screen turns on. Jun 15 16:11:42 i've tried it 10 times in a row, and every time it boots android Jun 15 16:12:30 im not even sure of the way you'd get linux on the wifi units Jun 15 16:12:35 nullr0ute: ignore those instructions, if you check the comments you'll see davide has supplied the real ones later on (or use the offical guide) Jun 15 16:14:02 adem_b_ where can i find the comments? i'm looking at this page: http://support.planetcom.co.uk/index.php/Flashing_Guide (bottom) Jun 15 16:14:09 WorkingClassDev: yes you need to have patientence for the official update release due 'this month', or 'today' (yesterday), so sure to be soon Jun 15 16:14:37 oh those are the officail ones, I thought I got him to update them with the true pattern Jun 15 16:15:10 bascially its a binary switch where the time between the bzz and the splash screen appearing is the important timeframe Jun 15 16:15:53 then in that time you have to hold the relevent pattern of keys and outside that it make no difference about what is pressed Jun 15 16:17:52 so basically if your rebooting you only need to hold the silver side button from the bzz to the splash screen showing Jun 15 16:18:23 or if you used the esc button to turn it on then you have to leave go of the esc key really quick once the device is turning on (buzz) Jun 15 16:19:55 if you get full android then your not pressing the silver side button at all (in that time frame), and if you get the android recovery you've pressed esc for too long Jun 15 16:20:31 guess i'm not pressing it hard enough then :) Jun 15 16:21:09 or the flash failed and you've not got the dual boot installed? Jun 15 16:21:23 that's my guess now too Jun 15 16:21:32 i'm going to reflash now and try it again Jun 15 16:22:27 though checking that your silver button is working it could be a HW issue by testing it in android Jun 15 16:22:47 https://i.imgur.com/S5V6pmz.png flashing now Jun 15 16:23:12 silver button works fine. tested it by picking up calls or bringing up the voice assistant Jun 15 16:23:24 cool, just worth checking all the possibilities Jun 15 16:24:25 always a good idea. i've worked in tech support in the past so i know what it's like :) Jun 15 16:57:48 holy shit i did it Jun 15 16:58:01 this also helped: https://github.com/gemian/gemini-keyboard-apps/wiki/Bootloader Jun 15 17:00:52 good rule of thumb: hold esc until buzz, hold silver button until blue led goes on. Jun 15 17:03:10 yep, i'm getting better at it. thanks for your help! Jun 15 17:03:42 other question: any idea on where the nfc antenna is approximately? Jun 15 17:03:46 and i've got to say i'm about a hair away from getting a one mix yoga and putting the gemini in the good idea poorly executed museum. Jun 15 17:04:09 it is a *very* large museum. and i bought most of its contents. Jun 15 17:44:34 ok cool thanks adam_b_ Jun 15 17:53:46 it's interesting how the wifi edition has ended feeling like a second class citizen. If i'd known when i ordered I'd have probably stumped up the extra for a 4g Jun 15 17:55:03 Mix Yoga looks interesting (not heard of it before) my only concern would be the keyboard looks nasty Jun 15 17:58:30 WorkingClassDev: another 3rd hand estimate is by end of next week, wonder what the hold up is Jun 15 17:58:55 it seems odd that it wouldnt just use the same x27 image ?!? Jun 15 17:59:50 I would have expected it to boot and determine hardware available, e.g. no 4g chipsets. Jun 15 18:00:40 the linux part is the same, its the android bit that is different (though I don't see why it needs to be) Jun 15 18:01:53 no nore me Jun 15 18:02:00 unless they are doing funky with drivers ?!? Jun 15 18:02:42 When planet go bust and open source everything i guess we'll find out... Not long until october ;-) Jun 15 18:04:38 I think they basically disable SIM support in Android Jun 15 18:04:55 since there is no SIM slot and likely antennas Jun 15 18:05:14 otherwise hardware should be identical Jun 15 18:05:57 you could try flashing normal X27 image for the sake of testing, as long as you have stock image or backup to reflash Jun 15 18:21:30 would that be safe? (i dont have my device yet, should come sometime next week) Jun 15 18:21:31 is there already an updated rooted system image? I see only the one from May (which has the warning^^) Jun 15 18:25:39 WorkingClassDev, should be, preloader is responsible for flashing, so it's possible to flash normal image same way in case of any issues Jun 15 18:26:01 ok cool, happy days and worth a punt bricking it on day 1 :D Jun 15 19:30:26 akik: there's label pointing to the keyboard saying GUI Jun 15 19:44:37 gobuki: that's what i didn't understand. should've said "touch screen" to be more precise? Jun 15 19:52:41 WorkingClassDev : Mix Yoga keyboard *is* backlit. And it has a pointing device. And there's no Android involved. Jun 15 19:53:03 two of those interest me :) Jun 15 19:55:03 Oh, and apparently the HDMI is straight-from-the-machine HDMI. Jun 15 19:55:35 though Linux audio support seems to be a crapshoot. Jun 15 19:57:28 hehe Jun 15 19:57:39 planet made some odd choice around usb-c Jun 15 19:58:00 backlit keyboard dont bother me much but being able to run pure linux would make me a happy boy Jun 15 19:58:28 maybe planet will fix this if there is a v2. although right now I'm not very happy with them so I dunno whether I'd ever give them cash again Jun 15 20:04:09 was it so that if you have a android/linux dual boot, you can't use ota updates? Jun 15 20:12:40 WorkingClassDev : I'd be curious as to how much more it would have cost to get a proper SoC sted of Mediatek. Jun 15 20:27:03 dep: few SoCs are fully functional Jun 15 20:27:37 and those which are, no thanks to their manufacturers Jun 15 20:28:36 Bring back the days of the TI OMAP Jun 15 20:28:37 :) Jun 15 20:28:39 yeah i'm done with the project too - selling mine and moving on Jun 15 20:32:51 i have a collection of such things -- an atari portfolio (which does still work), a toshiiba libretto (ditto) Jun 15 20:33:27 and a sharp thing which was a pda with "handwriting recognition" 30 or so years ago. never did work right. Jun 15 20:33:33 and now a gemini. Jun 15 20:33:43 i loved my hp200lx Jun 15 20:34:44 planet computers came *so* close. but the mediatek blob-a-rama and chrooted linux . . . collapsed before the finish line. Jun 15 20:34:47 I had a hate/hate relastionship with the Portfolio, even while it was the mobile device I would use most - had the modem and used it for remote work Jun 15 20:35:02 dep, it's not chrooted Jun 15 20:35:20 dep, the blob-a-rama is the killer for me Jun 15 20:35:29 i spent the big bucks and got the 128kb storage upgrade. and the parappel port add-on. Jun 15 20:35:32 I know what you mean, but rumors and wrong terms make me mad sometimes Jun 15 20:35:50 parappel = parallel Jun 15 20:36:39 NeKit : aren't most SoCs better documented than the Mediatek ones? Jun 15 20:36:50 fakefur: I'm trying to think of any current SoC where at least the GPU isn't Blobby Jun 15 20:36:58 basically Linux system is host and Android init runs in LXC container, not the other way Jun 15 20:37:24 so the android is chrooted? Jun 15 20:37:47 dep, not lots of viable options, honestly, especially if LTE is desired Jun 15 20:38:02 i wanted a linux pocket computer Jun 15 20:38:08 i thought this might be it Jun 15 20:38:12 it isn't Jun 15 20:38:18 * fakefur is sad Jun 15 20:38:50 NeKit : i understand that. just kind of which they'd made all that clear upfront, and in the various "look what's working" videos. Jun 15 20:38:52 well, it happens Jun 15 20:38:53 fakefur: And by that I assume you mean "I have nuts and bolts access down to hardware level" rather than "I have a Linux userspace"? Jun 15 20:39:14 dapol2, yes - i don't want another android device Jun 15 20:39:33 In which case you're really looking at something from a *long* time ago :( Jun 15 20:39:36 dep, I think the videos didn't lie though? Jun 15 20:39:50 dapol2, well just a small laptop really Jun 15 20:40:42 NeKit : the heavy implication was that the thing would ship with working Linux and the advertised features enabled. Jun 15 20:41:03 i have found that the best way to deal with disappointment for things like this is to get rid of it and move on straight away Jun 15 20:41:20 otherwise everytime i look at it i get disappointed again Jun 15 20:41:22 well, Gemini hardware is worlds better than N900, being a tad too big being the biggest problem. Software, though... Jun 15 20:41:38 my hope was something that would help me in my work, not become a second job in and of itself. Jun 15 20:41:46 exactly Jun 15 20:41:49 dep, I think they shown XFCE4 with fbdev Jun 15 20:41:55 * dapol2 had that disappointment with the SL-C3000 which was almost instantly orphaned by Sharp and wasn't around long enough to be particularly supported by the community Jun 15 20:42:11 and my confidence in planet's ability to do the software properly? less than zero Jun 15 20:42:17 but for example Pinebook took over a year until it became usable (although with vendor kernel it worked on ship date) Jun 15 20:42:27 NeKit : and do those work with the Gemini now? Jun 15 20:42:35 sure Jun 15 20:42:55 * keithzg is just annoyed that the wifi-only model doesn't have any firmware images available, so one can't even *attempt* to dual-boot with Debian . . . Jun 15 20:43:06 I wouldn't recommend XFCE4 due to HiDPi issues though, that's why it's not in default image Jun 15 20:43:33 hell i'd be happy with a command line debian Jun 15 20:43:39 if it worked properly Jun 15 20:43:47 didn't they show Linux working with HDMI in one of the MWC videos? Jun 15 20:44:06 fakefur: Hell I'd be happy with a commandline Debian if I could even try it at all :P Jun 15 20:44:19 keithzg, likewise Jun 15 20:44:30 i also have the (2nd class) wifi only Jun 15 20:44:36 and please understand: none of this is the slightest criticism of the people here who are working hard and well Jun 15 20:44:49 keeping P.C.'s promises. Jun 15 20:45:04 fakefur, wait, did you try current build or? Jun 15 20:45:20 i think [insert name here] said it right the other day ... the over promise on the linux front is the killer Jun 15 20:45:50 NeKit, nothing is to be updated and no images for linux Jun 15 20:46:11 i put it back in its box and havent bothered since 5 minutes after switching it on Jun 15 20:46:55 keithzg: Not *quite* what you might be wanting, but it's possible to install a Linux under the Limbo-x86 emulator on the Gemini - haven't managed to get OS/2 working under it yet :( Jun 15 20:46:58 honestly for something i was so excited about i am over it and disappointed totally - plus the extra kicker of having to pay customs duty in eurpe was salt in the wound Jun 15 20:47:24 *europe Jun 15 20:47:46 keithzg, as I suggested before, X27 dualboot firwmare should work if you don't mind having non-working modem option in Android Jun 15 20:47:55 dapol2: Yeah but I already have a Google Pixel C, if I wanted a portable Android device running Linux atop it (which personally I would just use GNURoot Debian for) I already have one! Jun 15 20:48:28 NeKit: Well that does sound fine, since in fact I already do---this dumb thing is constantly complaining about lacking a SIM card, despite there being no way I could put a SIM card in it! Jun 15 20:48:32 but I really hope proper image will be released in a few days Jun 15 20:48:45 keithzg: Wifi Only? Jun 15 20:48:49 dapol2: Yup Jun 15 20:49:10 nods Jun 15 20:49:47 NeKit: Hmm I hope the proper image is released and that it actually solves the Android install thinking it needs a SIM card then too! Jun 15 20:50:34 * dapol2 is happy enough with his, but that's from the PoV of just sucking it, running with Android, admitting it's no worse than most of the android devices I've used over the years and moving on - that from a security PoV it's a downgrade on the KeyOne I was using is annoying, but I'll suck that for now and see how things turn out, and if it becomes enough of an issue then the KeyTwo is now a thing :) Jun 15 20:52:26 I'm mostly waiting for Sailfish to come through - if I "need" UNIX then I'll use something like the Wyse CloudConnector and just remote to another box Jun 15 20:53:46 re. sailfish -- does it or does it not run proper linux applications? Jun 15 20:54:43 dep: Commandline applications, definitely! GUI applications . . . that gets trickier. Jun 15 20:56:35 because of wayland, right? Jun 15 20:58:47 Yeah, largely because of Wayland, although also the 'desktop environment' itself doesn't necessarily have the accoutrements apps expect, I think? Jun 15 20:59:16 Wayland can run most of applications nowadays either natively or through XWayland, but lipstick is somewhat limited as Wayland compositor Jun 15 20:59:17 There are a lot of apps out there for Sailfish though, definitely more than any other non-Android Linux mobile OS. Jun 15 20:59:54 And it's a real Linux distro under the hood, so commandline stuff is definitely all good. And writing QML apps is dead simple. Jun 15 21:00:41 I hate that it's RPM-based, but hey, can't have everything ;) Jun 15 21:00:50 i need a working word processor, gthumb, and gimp, a good email client and a browser that doesn't phone home. that's the minimum requirement. Jun 15 21:03:22 Ack, I can't imagine using GIMP on such a small screen! Jun 15 21:04:19 Did i just back up my NVRAM0? The file is only 5Mb. Jun 15 21:04:51 it's no fun, but it can be useful for basic cropping and color correction. Jun 15 21:05:03 gthumb is for captioning. Jun 15 21:05:22 and LTE, if it happens, would be for shipping it all back to the newspaper. Jun 15 21:05:40 essentially i'd like my raspberry pi squished into this form factor please :) Jun 15 21:06:23 flash tool showed a green check, but I expected the backup file size to be a lot bigger. How big is you Gemini backup? Jun 15 21:07:08 gobuki: I'm suprised it takes a whole 5Mb to store an IMEI number... Jun 15 21:07:21 fakefur: So.... gut the Gemini, throw away the mainboard, figure out an HDMI bridge for the display, strap a RPi Zero-W into the top half, stick an arduino mini in to deal with the keyboard and success! Jun 15 21:07:32 hahaha Jun 15 21:08:50 adam_b_: if that is everything it's supposed to contain i'd wonder too Jun 15 21:09:28 gobuki: yea I guess its got more going on than that, but its basically the bit thats different for each device, the rest is common to everyone Jun 15 21:09:29 is there any way to ensure my IMEA is in it? Is the IMEI compressed or encoded? Jun 15 21:09:55 try greping it unencoded first Jun 15 21:10:33 yea, I'm trying to find the IMEI. Is it under the cover? Jun 15 21:10:52 yea top one Jun 15 21:11:49 adam_b_: you mean IMEI1? Jun 15 21:12:05 gobuki: well it should contain both for x27 Jun 15 21:12:48 fakefur: yea if they'd picked the RPi SoC then the linux side would have been much easier Jun 15 21:13:13 it's the 3.18 kernel that sticks Jun 15 21:13:55 fakefur: well NeKit and others are working on that, you just need a bit of patience (and you needed a lot to get this far I know) Jun 15 21:15:01 mh.. greping hexdump -C NVRAM0 doesn't show a match for any snippets of the number i tried. Jun 15 21:15:18 adam_b_: If they'd picked the RPi SoC then there'd never have been a 4G version - that SoC is designed for STBs Jun 15 21:15:18 is there a github repo for the kernel work? Jun 15 21:16:30 is there not a next along in the line of RPi SoC's with the same graphics but newer+4g bits added? Jun 15 21:16:43 adam_b_, it's encoded Jun 15 21:17:24 NeKit: your suggested echo didn't appear to be doing any encoding Jun 15 21:17:33 https://github.com/denis4net/imei_recovery_tool/blob/master/jni/main.c Jun 15 21:17:48 echo just causes modem driver to save it Jun 15 21:20:55 adam_b_: Their website doesn't list any current mobile device SoCs Jun 15 21:20:56 it's worth noting that /data/nvram is nvdata partition which seemingly gets formatted on flashing and Android restores its contents using nvram(?) partition Jun 15 21:21:20 fakefur: The mainline work has a wiki page https://github.com/gemian/gemini-keyboard-apps/wiki/LinuxMainlining Jun 15 21:22:21 dapol2: thats probably why they didn't pick that option then Jun 15 21:23:24 adam_b_, seems pretty early days Jun 15 21:23:43 fakefur: yes indeed, got to start somewhere Jun 15 21:23:44 from my PoV, they basically picked ready phone design from ODM and extended that with keyboard Jun 15 21:24:22 that's why MediaTek, but it allowed to them to make real working device in a year compared to more ambitious projects Jun 15 21:25:02 just wish they hadn't made such seemingly untrue claims regarding linux etc Jun 15 21:25:30 yea they do keep shooting themselves in their feet when it comes to communications/promises Jun 15 21:26:34 now I wish to get Vernee Apollo Lite or something else X20-based just to check if our hacked solutions like Gemian would easily work on it Jun 15 21:28:12 I have another phone it'd be lovely to find a hacked ROM for, but seems unlikely - Doogee Mix 2 - theoretically great spec (6GB RAM, Helio-P20), but bugger all community interest in. Jun 15 21:28:21 Seems to be a thing with Helio Jun 15 21:29:23 I wonder what the licensing state for PalmOS is these days :) Jun 15 21:29:46 the bad thing about Doogee/etc is that they won't even care to release GPLed kernel source Jun 15 21:30:09 yeah, and they don't "officially" sell to anywhere that might allow GPL enforcement Jun 15 21:30:30 Fantastic spec, decent enough hardware, bugger all support. Jun 15 21:30:49 and people still buy them in probably much larger amounts then there will be ever Gemini units made Jun 15 21:31:01 yeah Jun 15 21:32:09 Problem basically is that your choice of SoCs are either you can buy a small run and get stuff made, or be committed to producing millions - producing millions gets you a bit more documentation, small run gets you in production Jun 15 21:32:29 and there's a great big hump to get over in terms of sales volumes that doesn't allow you to easily move between the two Jun 15 21:33:00 dapol2, so basically they are out of their depth and slightly delusional? Jun 15 21:33:10 that could probably explain why they didn't go for Qualcomm (besides of it being more expensive) Jun 15 21:34:33 fakefur: Just like all the best new things, yeah :) Jun 15 21:36:07 dapol2, reminds me of funny story of Russian company trying to acquire some amount of mobile Intel Atom CPUs and getting constantly redirected from department to another Jun 15 21:36:25 dapol2 : palm os -- http://webosose.org/ Jun 15 21:36:27 then they contacted with MediaTek and they were like "just come and get the chips" Jun 15 21:38:07 I once tried to buy about £3m of SAN from Huawei. Their UK sales organisation claimed that they don't sell any such product. Jun 15 21:38:14 And they certainly didn't on that occasion Jun 15 21:38:26 dep: webOS was the followon for PalmOS but yeah Jun 15 21:38:53 Never got as far as the Pre/Veer - had jumped to Nokia E series by then Jun 15 21:39:41 take out your palm pilot and look at it! wouldn't be accepted now on a watch! Jun 15 21:40:08 dep: If the hardware hadn't died, I'd still be using my Treo today. Jun 15 21:40:42 though i had libreoffice running better on an h-p touchpad than i have it running on gemini. Jun 15 21:41:00 Totally usable for almost any use I put my phone to - phonecalls, texts, email, limited document editing, web browsing (although the browser would be rather aged now), calendaring - all worked well Jun 15 21:41:15 And to this day ChatterEmail is the best mobile mail client I've used. Jun 15 21:41:48 PalmOS 5.x on a Blackberry Q10 would be my happy place :) Jun 15 21:41:56 i was thinking earlier that k9 for linux would be useful on the gemini. Jun 15 21:41:59 Q10 - love the hardware, hate the OS. Jun 15 21:42:20 did anyone look to see if a rebuild of libreoffice to use egl would make it more reliably usable? (sometimes it does keep up with my typing, sometimes not) Jun 15 21:43:41 i'm still carrying a Q10. hoped gemini could replace it. Jun 15 21:44:12 dep: Nah - Priv replaced it a long time ago :) Jun 15 21:44:25 My Priv developed an annoying fault about a week after I got the KeyOne Jun 15 21:44:27 i don't do android. Jun 15 21:44:38 Flickering green stuff on the bottom of the screen Jun 15 21:44:57 that's what happened to my touchpad. Jun 15 21:45:02 dep: In which case your only real upgrade path is to the Classic - if you want a touchpad Jun 15 21:45:05 never recovered. Jun 15 21:45:25 passport? Jun 15 21:45:30 Ewwww! Jun 15 21:45:41 or rather "OMG! My Trousers have split!" Jun 15 21:45:51 It's a bit on the huge side for my tastes Jun 15 21:46:01 Actually, most modernish phones are Jun 15 21:46:12 I went back to my Droid 4 the other day and it was suddenly nice again Jun 15 21:46:27 although some apps are a bit iffy - Youtube puts a yellow tinge on everything Jun 15 21:46:46 actually, i'd be fairly happy with my Q10 if the apps didn't *entirely* dry up. Jun 15 21:47:59 dep: Yeah - and the apps that were never worked that well IME Jun 15 21:48:05 Facebook was unusable Jun 15 21:48:23 Although that's more a general statement than a BB10 complaint Jun 15 21:48:34 i would be drawn to a device where facebook was not possible. Jun 15 21:48:41 It's too bad BlackBerry never ended up coordinating with Jolla, Canonical, and KDE about creating a shared QML component set; that might have kept apps coming for things like the Q10, if any QML app could easily be republished for any QML platform. Jun 15 21:48:42 Facebook unusable? Win! Jun 15 21:50:14 blackberry has become a horror movie: the thing that didn't know it was dead. Jun 15 21:51:03 dep: They're a software company these days, but what they're largely focussing on is MDM with a side order of Android hardening for the devices being manufactured in their name Jun 15 21:51:25 And the devices are actually rather nice, if you want Android. Jun 15 21:51:39 Well, the Priv and KeyOne/KeyTwo are Jun 15 21:51:47 the DTEK series - rather less so Jun 15 21:53:03 they dies when they lost focus and instead of a business tool they went for the kiddies. Jun 15 21:53:23 i remember thinking they were dead when the big news on crackberry was new stickers. Jun 15 21:53:31 And as for Linux on the Gemini - if there was a usable EAS client for Linux that I could find.... Jun 15 21:53:42 Or even SyncML Jun 15 21:53:50 and no, I don't consider Gsync to be usable Jun 15 21:54:39 i have a bvlackberry playbook that supports it well. happy to sell it to you. and has the keyboard case! Jun 15 21:54:53 Heh. No thank you. Jun 15 21:55:00 I've not tried it with syncml but syncevolution is what I've been using to import my stuff into the gemini Jun 15 21:55:09 Bastard Father of BB10 also not to my liking Jun 15 21:56:11 the last OS upgrade made it entirely useless for, really, anything. Jun 15 21:56:52 webos was actually pretty good -- very sailfish-like Jun 15 21:57:10 It's not bad on my TV :) Jun 15 21:57:17 Unsure why it's on fridges Jun 15 21:57:35 Does anyone know the filesystem type of the NVRAM0 image? It doesn't seem to be jffs Jun 15 21:57:37 That there's an Alexa skill to do *something* with WebOS fridges... Jun 15 21:57:51 because otherwise people would have to break into your house to hack your kitchen appliances. Jun 15 21:58:02 gobuki: I assume you've tried "file $IMAGE" to see if that knows? Jun 15 21:58:21 dep: Already have smart meters :( No need to break in. Jun 15 21:58:42 dapol2: i did, but it only shows "data". I installed mtd-utils and ran jffs2dump on the image. Jun 15 21:59:07 does strings give anything in anyway intelligable? Jun 15 21:59:13 i see filenames Jun 15 21:59:34 try mounting it as a FAT image? Jun 15 21:59:36 one containing the string IMEI Jun 15 22:00:18 tried vfat. Wrong file type. Jun 15 22:00:27 fs type Jun 15 22:00:28 FAT16 Jun 15 22:00:37 or possibly MinixFS Jun 15 22:01:55 dapol2: Confused: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EAS Jun 15 22:02:27 andypugh: Exchange Active Sync Jun 15 22:03:16 Incidentally, no use for anything, but I compiled LinuxCNC on my Gemini: https://photos.app.goo.gl/qnRmbxuX3SvG2uFEA Jun 15 22:04:06 andypugh: Now you just need a pocket size CNC mill. Jun 15 22:04:54 adam_b_, it seems it relies on Epoxy now for OpenGL context creation Jun 15 22:05:07 Well, it is useful for me. One use for the Gemini for me is forum admin when travelling, and answering questions, so the keyboard is a boon. The point of the LinuxCNC install is so that I can test out the software behaviour to support that. Jun 15 22:06:18 dapol2: Well, there is this, and it does actually run LinuxCNC. So whilst you might have thought you were joking.. http://www.pocketnc.com Jun 15 22:07:59 Oh no - I know far too many people who would build something like that if it didn't already exist :) Jun 15 22:08:19 And then there's the Goliath Jun 15 22:08:23 (the version in buster) Jun 15 22:08:31 you don't want to pocket dial that thing, if you value your parts . . . Jun 15 22:08:39 dep: *grins* Jun 15 22:10:16 Hadn’t seen Golaith until now. I guess you mean https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/2130625347/goliath-cnc-an-autonomous-robotic-machine-tool-for Jun 15 22:11:15 To be honest I think that the Shaper Origin is a more practical solution to that problem: https://shapertools.com Jun 15 22:12:44 andypugh: I did, yes. Jun 15 22:13:13 Goliath is one of those things I would have loved to have thought of, and to have made for fun, but isn’t really the answer to a question anyone is asking. Jun 15 22:13:48 andypugh: It's a turtle with a router. That should be programmed in LOGO rather than Gcode Jun 15 22:13:58 Shaper answers the question “I can’t really make this router go where I want freehand, I can get to within an inch, though” Jun 15 22:14:27 And as far as I can tell, it's basically a different take on the hangplotter type devices Jun 15 22:15:12 I am sure it can draw pictures really well. But what does it use to resist cutting forces? Omniwheels on sawdust? Jun 15 22:15:52 andypugh: Yeah - doesn't appear a great concept, but I'm sure some people will be happy with it. And a lot of others will get upset because it doesn't meet the campaign promises. Jun 15 22:16:20 It would be a great (and extremely dangerous) laser cutter Jun 15 22:16:31 If I had spare money these days I'd be looking at an XCarve or a Carvey, but that'd be for light use, and my workbench is already too full. Jun 15 22:16:51 which is why there's a bandsaw in the hall waiting for me to build it up and find somewhere for it to live. Jun 15 22:17:20 I have seen almost no vertical CNC routers. Jun 15 22:17:25 Instead I shall continue as I ever have, bodging stuff together to the level of "Thisuldoo" Jun 15 22:17:47 (There is one, cable-based one. like the hangplotters Jun 15 22:18:52 LinuxCNC can do cable-bipods, tripods and, well, anything solvable by maths. Just saying.. Jun 15 22:18:59 http://www.maslowcnc.com/ Jun 15 22:19:19 That’s the one Jun 15 22:19:44 There seem to be quite a few out there Jun 15 22:20:02 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HbETmYz1prs Jun 15 22:20:30 And arguably any 5 axis unit is a vertical router in some of its modes Jun 15 22:21:43 Very arguably :-) Jun 15 22:22:24 5 minute or the full half hour? Jun 15 22:22:59 The only reason for the qualification is that (for example) my CNC mill has a spindle that is too slow for wood, and feeds that would be too slow for a spindle that was fast enough. Jun 15 22:23:23 *nods* Jun 15 22:23:35 In practice the two combine to mean that I _can_ work on wood, but it takes _ages_ Jun 15 22:23:48 I think I've hit peak-CNC-but-its-not-really - the K40 laser took the last of my space Jun 15 22:24:58 with 2 (soon to be 3) FDM printers and an SLA printer taking most of the rest of it Jun 15 22:26:20 I did use the mill to make some foundry patterns for the CNC conversion of the lathe, but with a 1000 rpm spindle speed I think this took 18 hours… https://photos.app.goo.gl/Wa9pMUsREg294dhe7 Jun 15 22:27:16 :) Jun 15 22:27:23 But it got it done Jun 15 22:28:21 Yes: https://photos.app.goo.gl/PgmJXxbmBNyC5ZT86 Jun 15 22:28:58 I would like to think that it is hard to tell which of those castings were not originally part of the lathe, Jun 15 22:29:52 :) Jun 15 22:29:56 Cast iron? Jun 15 22:30:13 Of course :-) Jun 15 22:30:41 And welcome to "Shit I won't go near" Jun 15 22:30:44 There was a lot of “Because I can” there. Jun 15 22:31:04 I hay have had an unhealthy dose of "Avoid the molten metal" drummed into me by some of my grandfather's horror stories. Jun 15 22:31:28 I admit I pay a chap to do the casting. Jun 15 22:32:02 He was senior scientific officer for British Aluminium back in the day - one of his "Bad idea" stories was about transporting the aluminium to be cast into engines for the Hillman Imp. Jun 15 22:32:23 For 6 months they were driving tanker loads of molten aluminium 120 miles from the smelter to the engine plant. Jun 15 22:32:41 That was written off as a very bad and unsafe idea Jun 15 22:33:00 This is £300 in castings. I couldn’t set up to do that at home for anything like that, and he only charges for the successes: https://photos.app.goo.gl/ULGYzTNw23pqDubV9 Jun 15 22:34:04 wow Jun 15 22:35:02 FDM is a _great_ way to make patterns for the foundry, and you can have the parts cast for about £20 / kg Jun 15 22:35:46 nods Jun 15 22:36:33 I'm playing with using it for epoxy casting, but am still waiting for the 3d scanner to actually grab the images I want. Jun 15 22:37:14 Some students I know are currently printing the patterns for a 4 litre twin-cylinder engine from 1902 in 100mx100mm sections. (because their car threw a rod on the Brighton run). Jun 15 22:38:30 This works Jun 15 22:38:32 Slowly. Jun 15 22:38:46 This would be bargain for 3D scanning: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/192086672011 Jun 15 22:39:02 I consider myself fortunate that one of my printers can manage 240x280mm cylinder printing Jun 15 22:39:40 And, when I get the 2020 stock in, 240x700 Jun 15 22:39:46 That's gonna take some bracing Jun 15 22:40:35 I'm going with a structured light scanner for the scanning, but yeah - that unit would be awesome but also beyond my needs :) Jun 15 22:42:02 At the moment my main need/want/would be nice to have is just a bigger compressor - the little Stanley one I've got is getting seriously challenged by my uses for it Jun 15 22:42:35 It can just about drive my big impact gun. For not long enough to be useful. Jun 15 22:42:55 And as for the hand held detail sandblaster.... Jun 15 22:42:57 no. Jun 15 22:43:35 OK - tomorrows task - rough out the holster for the Gemini in disposable materials - I'm seeing lotsa laser cutting and some hand stitching in my future. Jun 15 22:44:13 I'm also seeing a shedload of calibration needing done on the laser cautter before I try and make the final version Jun 15 22:44:28 because having a cm be a cm is a good thing I'm told. Jun 15 22:45:40 Naomi Wu has a video on making a holster for a small PC. You may not learn much, but she is not hard to watch. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LKCzQap4u7I&t=14s Jun 15 22:46:02 andypugh: "Easy on the eyes, painful on the technical knowledge" Jun 15 22:47:14 And a living warning about dealing with Vice magazine Jun 15 22:48:25 I would consider doing that sort of semi-informational advertisement video, but I have a few things going against me. Largely being a middle aged overweight scotsman who would end up producing things half way between AvE and Reg Prescott in presentation. Jun 15 22:49:02 Well, that and my employment contract banning me from public production on the Internet. Jun 15 22:50:11 That’s what gets me about the Wu-haters. They all argue that she can’t be real because she is too skilled for her age (and, I suspect, in their heads, for being both a woman and Chinese). But nothing she does is hard. Even her catch-phrase is “if I can do it, you can”. Bah, they annoy me. The giveaway there is when they discover that she has a male husband who isn’t Chinese, and are prepared to believe t Jun 15 22:50:12 he has all the techical knowledge. For he is male and not Chinese. Ohh. Rant over. Jun 15 22:50:34 dapol2: You could be Big CLive Jun 15 22:50:53 andypugh: Heh! Only in his Troll Mode Jun 15 22:51:09 AvE subscibes to my YouTube channel. Jun 15 22:51:16 Wow indeed! Jun 15 22:51:36 ThisOldAndy? Jun 15 22:52:19 https://www.youtube.com/user/blyndpew Jun 15 22:52:35 My most recent claim to fame is having conducted a Funeral that Mitch Benn proclaimed to be "The most fun funeral I've been at lately" Jun 15 22:52:50 It's a different kind of notoreity :) Jun 15 22:52:51 (I think my real name was taken, I used my Pirate name) Jun 15 22:53:30 No what’s the latin phrase for “damning with faint praise” Jun 15 22:53:41 heh :) Jun 15 22:54:11 He was there because his ex-wife had basically blackmailed him into going, as it was a "Frequent fan" had died. Jun 15 22:54:54 He ended up performing a guitar and vocal version of Mr Blue Sky as the mourners backed on kazoo as the coffin was lowered. Jun 15 22:54:59 I tend to conflate Mitch Benn and Hilary Benn. This is confusing. Jun 15 22:55:24 Umm yes - one's a tall scouser who appears on Radio 4 a lot, and the other's an almost complete tit who appears on Radio 4 a lot. Jun 15 22:55:28 I can see the confusion Jun 15 22:57:09 Especially on radio Jun 15 22:58:51 ok. Firefox. Memory usage. WTF? Jun 15 22:59:04 Just had it die on my desktop, having consumed all the RAM. Jun 15 22:59:08 22GB of RAM actually. Jun 15 23:00:39 OK. There's a FreeCAD port for Android. I would not recommend attempting to use it. Jun 15 23:00:47 Unless you enjoy waiting a lot. Jun 15 23:01:17 Ihave had software die through using all the VM (I think it was using 20GB) on a machine with 32GB of _real_ RAM. That was annoying. Jun 15 23:01:46 At some point I'll finish upgrading that desktop. And Firefox will still consume all the RAM. Jun 15 23:02:00 and max upgrade for this thing is 288GB Jun 15 23:02:15 That'll be a long time. 16GB DIMMs aren't cheap. Jun 15 23:02:37 And to be honest, if I did that it would be purely for bragging rights. Jun 15 23:11:29 Is there any better reason to do anything> Jun 15 23:18:37 :) **** ENDING LOGGING AT Sat Jun 16 03:00:04 2018