**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Sun Dec 20 02:59:57 2020
**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Sun Dec 20 08:38:20 2020
Dec 20 17:25:38 <TallTim> I only commented because its visually noisy and doesn't really help anything. Yep, we get it, its telegram. Why it needs to be appended to every single line is a mystery to me.
Dec 20 17:26:11 <TallTim> <@_freenode_238349065u502354:badUX.org> you know what I mean?
Dec 20 17:37:27 <ArcusBot[m]> <Sami Olmari> it is not because of telegram...
Dec 20 17:38:19 <ArcusBot[m]> <Sami Olmari> it is because with freenode there is no way to do real puppeting bridging and relaying is pretty much forced
Dec 20 17:39:12 <ArcusBot[m]> <Sami Olmari> and no one has bothered to try guess what part of userhandle should be discarded in the relaying telling what user is speaking
Dec 20 17:46:57 <TallTim> Yes, I can see that
Dec 20 17:47:41 <TallTim> Its hard to explain things to programmers that are UX related.
Dec 20 17:48:10 <TallTim> most simply don't care
Dec 20 17:48:18 <TallTim> Which explains why Linux desktops are a mess.
Dec 20 17:49:18 <ArcusBot[m]> <@cos:hacklab.fi> This is where the bot figures out the sender nick. PR's welcome if you can improve it https://github.com/vranki/hemppa/blob/master/modules/relay.py#L34
Dec 20 17:50:06 <ArcusBot[m]> <@cos:hacklab.fi> I hope this is a temporary solution until freenode removes its restrictions, room is moved to other network or everyone joins via matrix.
Dec 20 17:50:55 <TallTim> So you're telling me that freenode requires ID in the form of an overly-long prepended tag?
Dec 20 17:51:11 <TallTim> Or is it simply that it was the laziest way to execute it?
Dec 20 17:54:58 <TallTim> Yeah, figured as much.
Dec 20 17:56:32 <ArcusBot[m]> <Sami Olmari> no... with freenode we CAN NOT do proper bridge, is what I have tried to say
Dec 20 17:56:48 <ArcusBot[m]> <Sami Olmari> that is root issue
Dec 20 17:58:22 <ArcusBot[m]> <Sami Olmari> one way to go around is to use ugly relaying bridge, which currently spits whole user id in front of messages, because what else?
Dec 20 17:59:55 <TallTim> Why couldn't it be truncated to the nick itself?
Dec 20 18:00:46 <TallTim> Is there some requirement that its left intact?
Dec 20 18:00:56 <TallTim> (the full ID)
Dec 20 18:01:24 <ArcusBot[m]> <Sami Olmari> that is the whole userhandle, and how would we know generally what to crop and what not to
Dec 20 18:01:38 <TallTim> Right
Dec 20 18:01:54 <TallTim> What a nightmare.
Dec 20 18:02:15 <ArcusBot[m]> <Sami Olmari> all sorts of special cases could ofcourse be done in theory, but who is wanting to keep up with that then =)
Dec 20 18:02:31 <TallTim> You're right, that would take effort and time
Dec 20 18:03:01 <ArcusBot[m]> <Sami Olmari> and I do know it looks hideous.. I see it too right here right now
Dec 20 18:03:57 <TallTim> 1. store channel nick list, parse ID for nick, only spit out nick
Dec 20 18:04:06 <TallTim> Just off the top of my head
Dec 20 18:04:13 <ArcusBot[m]> <Sami Olmari> with proper puppeting bridge the bridge instance would figure out nice or very least nicer userhandles what will suit irc, and so on
Dec 20 18:04:14 <TallTim> Whats that, an array and a quick compare?
Dec 20 18:04:37 <ArcusBot[m]> <Sami Olmari> whose nick? there is no such nick for irc-side for other than ircers
Dec 20 18:05:02 <TallTim> So there is no functionality for usernames in other services?
Dec 20 18:05:07 <TallTim> comon man
Dec 20 18:05:34 <TallTim> I can't query a channel and get a nick list?
Dec 20 18:06:06 <TallTim> I'm not a telegram user, so someone clue me in
Dec 20 18:06:07 <ArcusBot[m]> <Sami Olmari> and yes, one could make relaying bot always an bit better, I give yo uthat.. but real issue is still that no one of us really even want to have realy when puppeting exist.. but can't do that in FN
Dec 20 18:06:16 <ArcusBot[m]> <@cos:hacklab.fi> I wonder why user_name() doesn't return just the nickname here but full MXID here
Dec 20 18:06:47 <ArcusBot[m]> <Sami Olmari> relay when*
Dec 20 18:07:23 <TallTim> Okay, maybe I'm just being too reductionist when I think that basic ASCII manipulations are trivial.
Dec 20 18:07:35 <TallTim> Ugly it is, then
Dec 20 18:08:37 <ArcusBot[m]> <@cos:hacklab.fi> It's ugly on this side also
Dec 20 18:08:53 <TallTim> roger that
Dec 20 18:09:02 <TallTim> Ugly parity achieved :)
Dec 20 18:09:18 <TallTim> Send your "UgACK" for three way handshake
Dec 20 18:09:41 <TallTim> Might as well turn on UUENCODE and go for broke
Dec 20 18:10:54 <ArcusBot[m]> <Sami Olmari> Like mentioned earlier, real solutions are: FN stops being jackass (history on irc-bridge management channel [or so] implies that it is not going to happend sadly), or that we make new irc-channel to ircnet and bridge that properly (and possible leave this channel telling anyone joining here that too), or ofcourse the most sad one, stop bridging this to irc (FN) completely...
Dec 20 18:11:33 <TallTim> So really its a competing standards problem, and no one can agree on a single platform.
Dec 20 18:11:52 <TallTim> Hey, just like phone chargers
Dec 20 18:12:00 <akik> lol
Dec 20 18:12:26 <TallTim> I said USB-C!!
Dec 20 18:12:32 <TallTim> heh
Dec 20 18:12:42 <TallTim> Tower of Babel I guess
Dec 20 18:13:00 <TallTim> I know, make a new standard - that then intensifies the problem :)
Dec 20 18:18:57 <ArcusBot[m]> <Sami Olmari> should FN in general behave humanly, we could even bridge multiple irc networks together with rest of the things (telegram, discord, slack, so on) in general, not that traditionally such multi-irc things are really desired.. but would work just fine and still have nice usernames for everyone everywhere =)
Dec 20 18:20:01 <TallTim> ...and thus the Universal Message Router was born
Dec 20 18:20:15 <ArcusBot[m]> <Sami Olmari> well, kinda yes :D
Dec 20 18:20:17 <TallTim> or just resurrect FIDO
Dec 20 18:20:23 <TallTim> lol
Dec 20 18:20:44 <TallTim> BBSes had no problem relaying stuff from all over the world. Oh well.
Dec 20 18:22:39 <ArcusBot[m]> <Sami Olmari> ultimately I personally am not wiling to put much effort for making relaybot nick-handler do nicer stuff, only because this channel exist in FN which nowadays is hostile towards bridging the proper way :)
Dec 20 18:23:04 <TallTim> So its the east germany of chat
Dec 20 18:23:12 <TallTim> with an ugly relay wall in the middle
Dec 20 18:23:23 <ArcusBot[m]> <Sami Olmari> =)
Dec 20 18:25:02 <ArcusBot[m]> <Sami Olmari> Now I don't know who or what entity really is responsible for this channel on irc side, in that relation it is not up to me to decide on what network this ought to exist (heck I would not care to use irc at all but as long as users on sucject I'm intersted in does use irc, I really don't wanna miss it out either)
Dec 20 18:26:07 <TallTim> IRC is the cockroach of chat, always there
Dec 20 18:26:24 <TallTim> Its like how the AT command set lives in every cell modem baseband radio
Dec 20 18:26:54 <ArcusBot[m]> <Sami Olmari> if this is deemed to be purely community-effort etc, then I'd be glad to fire up an ircnet channel myself for this and bridge that here proprly and so on..
Dec 20 18:27:10 <TallTim> I dont' know who started it
Dec 20 18:31:39 <ArcusBot[m]> <Sami Olmari> I guess we could also just do an poll or so too... but despite outcome of such arbitary poll, I'd still like to then sunset this channel... where admin(s) are needed anyway.. and editing some places such irc channel is mentioned and whatnot work it would involve
Dec 20 18:32:17 <TallTim> Its okay, it will be here when you want to come back :)
Dec 20 18:32:22 <TallTim> IRC never dies.
Dec 20 18:32:45 <ArcusBot[m]> <@_telegram_792211460:hacklab.fi> > <DrBytes> can't we just set up a gofundme for notkit and pay the guy to polish this thing
Dec 20 18:32:45 <ArcusBot[m]> The question will he accept the offer.
Dec 20 18:32:45 <ArcusBot[m]> BTW - the data is not working in UBP despite I have seen some one mentioning that it does...
Dec 20 18:36:10 <ArcusBot[m]> <Sami Olmari> talltim: and yes... irc is the cockroach that refuses to die... but keeps existing irritating everyone else and most of the times themselves too ;P
Dec 20 18:36:54 <TallTim> We'll have quantum entangled relays and IRC will still be there
Dec 20 18:36:57 <akik> why do you blame freenode ?
Dec 20 18:37:43 <ArcusBot[m]> <Sami Olmari> akik: for the reasons I've explained
Dec 20 18:38:39 <ArcusBot[m]> <Sami Olmari> they're the only irc network from bridged ones that actively does not wanna make it good, but has quite arbitary limits and requirements...
Dec 20 18:39:15 <ArcusBot[m]> <Sami Olmari> sure, as network owners they have the right.. which in turn leads to thinking why in earth we still are on FN side when saner ones exist :)
Dec 20 18:43:29 <ArcusBot[m]> <@cos:hacklab.fi> freenode sold itself as "good guys" for foss community, and now have turned up to being evil. i haven't figured out their motivation yet.
Dec 20 18:55:44 <akik> oh well
Dec 20 18:55:58 <akik> anything that becomes big enough, turns to s___
Dec 20 18:57:31 <akik> my first thought of slack was, what is this bulls___ that i need a separate login
Dec 20 18:57:52 <akik> and now each separate slack needs a separate login
Dec 20 19:03:09 <TallTim> slack to me is how microsoft would do IRC
Dec 20 19:03:17 <TallTim> And their desktop client blows
Dec 20 19:19:36 <ArcusBot[m]> <@cos:hacklab.fi> I think Teams would be how microsoft would do IRC :-)
Dec 20 23:17:03 <ArcusBot[m]> <@_telegram_792211460:hacklab.fi> @NotKit could you please tell me if it is possible to have mobile data in  ubports?
Dec 20 23:26:02 <ArcusBot[m]> <@_telegram_792211460:hacklab.fi> and.... 2all.
Dec 20 23:26:02 <ArcusBot[m]> I was stupid enough tu add kde repo to gemian and got now a new settings without cellular. how can I downgrade:revert my packages back if I removed the apt repo?
**** ENDING LOGGING AT Mon Dec 21 02:59:56 2020