**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Fri Nov 10 03:00:00 2017 Nov 10 03:04:15 I wonder if bison shit is considered bull shit or not... Nov 10 05:04:58 addiction takes many forms Nov 10 05:05:24 but i think if your family had been as manipulative and controlling as the typical family of someone who turns to youtube to make friends, you'd understand quite clearly Nov 10 05:05:40 Marex: neither here nor there, but i thought i'd announce that at long last i successfully cross-compiled something! Nov 10 05:05:44 :-D Nov 10 05:06:08 (not the kernel for that palm pilot, yet, but some other arm device) Nov 10 05:06:35 it's pretty fun actually Nov 10 05:06:51 didn't even have to go to 3rd party compilers Nov 10 05:07:00 all native gcc components from my distro Nov 10 05:07:37 way harder to read about than to actually do Nov 10 09:35:36 gnarface: it's fun until you find a compiler bug (yes, that happens) Nov 10 09:57:39 i may have actually, not sure Nov 10 09:58:01 i had trouble getting the u-boot fork i was using to build with eMMC support Nov 10 09:58:12 so for right now booting it off microSD Nov 10 09:58:51 it's a promising development either way. there's hope for the palm pilot. Nov 10 10:17:01 upstream u-boot has eMMC support Nov 10 10:17:07 ever since forever too Nov 10 10:18:20 they're still trying to merge support for this device though (pinebook) Nov 10 10:18:35 incomplete still, last i checked Nov 10 10:22:54 heh Nov 10 10:23:20 actually had to try 3 different ones that were supposed to work before i found one that actually worked Nov 10 10:24:53 gnarface: aargh64 ? Nov 10 10:25:23 gnarface: apt-get install gcc-aarch64-linux-gnu binutils-aarch64-linux-gnu Nov 10 10:26:56 haha Nov 10 10:26:57 yea Nov 10 10:27:06 i did it in a chroot Nov 10 10:27:22 that was a handy trick to learn Nov 10 10:39:47 it's actually really slick hardware, it'll be really nice when mainstream support gets fully integrated Nov 10 10:50:27 gnarface: you know you can help with that, right ? Nov 10 10:51:23 uh, learning to hack on the kernel? Nov 10 10:51:45 sorry misread Nov 10 10:52:05 no, i didn't know i could help really, beyond just building and testing and complaining about what's not working Nov 10 10:52:15 but i'm hardly qualified to actually hack on the kernel or u-boot at this point Nov 10 10:52:56 it is one thing i'm interested in but i'm a long way from that level of understanding of how this all works Nov 10 10:53:16 i was pretty proud of myself that i managed to get it booting kernel 4.13 with help Nov 10 10:54:06 so you gave up before even trying ? Nov 10 10:54:09 hm Nov 10 10:54:16 hah, no i didn't give up before trying Nov 10 10:54:37 but i am still just learning how it works and assuming more experienced people will finish before i'm even ready to start helping Nov 10 10:55:15 just the conceptual understanding of how u-boot fits into this was a hurdle Nov 10 10:56:05 and the fact it seems to be a fork of the linux kernel that boots 3 times was really confusing Nov 10 10:56:14 i'm getting there though Nov 10 10:56:15 it gets a bit weird/confusing on armv8a Nov 10 10:56:48 recommend any good books on this? Nov 10 10:56:49 are there even? Nov 10 10:57:00 or is the code itself the only real explanation at this point? Nov 10 10:58:12 gnarface: I started by scratching my own itch ... Nov 10 10:59:14 heh, well i still plan to circle back to that palm pilot we talked about all those years ago Nov 10 11:00:10 for the moment the pinebook is safer though because i can't brick it by accidentally running "shutdown -h now" Nov 10 11:01:56 I doubt you'll ever get back to it, it doesn't have much value now and it's just a hassle Nov 10 11:02:02 sure, you can learn the basic there much better Nov 10 13:55:16 gnarface: do you have pinebook? I never got a way to order one Nov 10 13:55:46 gnarface: the one from olimex is too expensive, but probably I end up ordering that... Nov 10 13:57:14 slapin: yes, try to place your reservation again and watch your SPAM folder for the response. i don't know what happened to my first reservation but the second one was located in the SPAM folder. i was told this is a common problem, for their invite email to be flagged as spam. Nov 10 13:57:55 it only took a couple months Nov 10 13:58:44 gnarface: I ordered like 3 times and never got reservation anywhere and no response from pine64 people, so it looks like they are overloaded so do not have time to answer Nov 10 13:59:11 i noticed they are somewhat disorganized, that is true Nov 10 13:59:38 i think many of them are very young Nov 10 14:00:44 maybe try from a different email provider? Nov 10 14:01:51 people do manage to get them, but i know the emails are a problem Nov 10 14:02:28 slapin: the olimex laptop is crap, 32bit DRAM bus and 1 or 2 GiB of RAM is b/s Nov 10 14:02:35 slapin: you'll suffer memory subsystem congestion Nov 10 14:18:14 Marex: I think CPU is the same as on pinebook and it can't be worse than ac100 which I really like Nov 10 14:18:46 gnarface: no fish, ordered twice, no email arrive Nov 10 14:19:26 Marex: also the performance of actual pine64 (2GB model) is quite nice for me Nov 10 14:19:54 slapin: i don't think it showed up right away. there was maybe some months delay, but i think maybe while gmail put it in the spam folder, hotmail may have blocked it completely? maybe the other way around. i'm not sure. Nov 10 14:20:11 slapin: i know i never found the first one Nov 10 14:20:24 Marex: so I think I can have either pinebook or olimex one, the only concern is price. Nov 10 14:21:00 gnarface: I use gmail and the mail is nowhere Nov 10 14:21:07 :( Nov 10 14:24:45 so I think it is not possible to order pinebook anyway (at least not for me) so I will try olimex model next month (I really broke now :)) Nov 10 14:26:30 slapin: did you try to sign up for the 14"? this may be relevant: https://forum.pine64.org/showthread.php?tid=5122&highlight=email Nov 10 14:26:51 gnarface: yes, 14" Nov 10 14:27:02 11" is not available to order Nov 10 14:27:07 oh Nov 10 14:27:22 damn i dunno. best idea i have is to post on their forum, sorry :( Nov 10 14:30:06 looks like they have not resolved any problems, so my best bet is olimex book Nov 10 14:30:45 maybe so. the relationship with their manufacturer is not great Nov 10 14:31:07 they don't place big enough orders to be a high priority customer Nov 10 14:31:37 i guess i had lucky timing this summer Nov 10 14:32:08 well, they have success with boards, I wonder why screens are such a problem... Nov 10 14:32:34 i'm assuming the manufacturer sold all the stock to a larger vendor Nov 10 14:32:41 I think they could do preorders to combine orders to be large enough... Nov 10 14:33:18 i don't know enough about their situation really, i think having bulk pre-orders makes other complications maybe? Nov 10 14:34:21 for example this neat handheld that will never see the light of day because they've been sitting about 100 orders short of their bulk order minimum for years: pyra-handheld.com Nov 10 14:34:50 best idea is to buy either gemini PDA or chromebook and reflash it :) Nov 10 16:43:47 well, I'm very happy with Pocket CHIP, but I'd like to have something in laptop form factor Nov 10 16:44:55 probably I will make one myself from available components Nov 10 19:02:25 I wonder is there some intel-based SBCs which can run linux games, i.e. have decent resources and nvidia chip as video card? Nov 10 19:10:18 I need to buy some intel board to run android CTS off. so to have less wires, but I think if it is possible to use that as some games machine while it is not in use for other things... Nov 10 20:36:36 slapin: novena ? :) Nov 10 23:02:30 Marex: novena is not for games, but looks extremely cool, probably I will look into buying it too Nov 10 23:03:10 Marex: now I look at some intel hardware to run in rack so I do not have to attach my PC to boards Nov 10 23:03:46 Marex: I will have 5 more boards next week in rack and I will die from wiring Nov 10 23:04:13 Marex: android tools are just not made for arm :( Nov 10 23:13:27 slapin: ALIX is the best thing for vlab racks Nov 10 23:25:24 alix boards seems to bi considered "deprecated" as I understand... Nov 10 23:27:25 256MB RAM is too little to run CTS, that is fucking java thing Nov 10 23:27:58 I need something with 64-bit and 2GB of RAM for thid kind of shit... Nov 10 23:29:21 I have old samsung laptop but it does have too little USB and too little RAM and weird BIOS which can't boot off SSDs so require USB flash to boot... Nov 10 23:31:27 I wonder why the hell soldered atom boards are so expensive, I remember about 3 years ago there were some intel cheap boards with 64-it CPUs and some GB of RAM and with enough USB which I could use but now I can't find any... Nov 10 23:32:57 you either get i7-mobile board which works as heater too which is too small to be properly cooled so unstable with full-rate CPU with wiched UEFI-only boot thing Nov 10 23:34:21 or shitty atom tablet-like boards with SoC atom at really slugish speeds and no BIOS (custom wicked bootloader) intended to run android Nov 10 23:35:02 probably I will just buy old laptop hoping it will not die too quickly... :( Nov 10 23:39:42 slapin: you look into Tegra stuff? it's arm hardware but does have pretty good nvidia video... Nov 10 23:40:04 (they're cooperating with nouveau on this stuff more than for their PC hardware, for some reason) Nov 11 00:14:34 gnarface: tegra driver sucks Nov 11 00:15:02 gnarface: also tegras are very expensive comparing to allwiner stuff. Nov 11 00:15:47 gnarface: I really need intel for development and games, I have allwinner boards for android games if I need any Nov 11 00:16:25 gnarface: I use huge tv + pine64 2GB version to play GTAs and Bully Nov 11 00:17:26 hmmm. noted. Nov 11 00:18:15 gnarface: but there is too little games worth playing on android to really bother Nov 11 00:18:19 did you get full support for the mali gpu working on that thing? Nov 11 00:18:25 i thought it was still unfinished Nov 11 00:18:40 gnarface: I drank with some of those nouveau dudes from Nvidia in Japan, it was a lot of fun Nov 11 00:18:56 marex-cloud: i'm jealous Nov 11 00:19:39 gnarface: Lima driver is now alive again, but I think only offscreen rendering works (on Mali utgard too, midgard is a whole different IP) Nov 11 00:19:48 gnarface: so I really think to either buy PS4 in distant future or buy some board for games and run normal Linux so I could do development there too Nov 11 00:19:50 Mali blobs are awful Nov 11 00:20:07 marex-cloud: Mali is as awful as SGX Nov 11 00:20:14 I suffered with them on ZynqMP Nov 11 00:20:23 slapin: sgx is far worse Nov 11 00:20:25 marex-cloud: but Mali does have less outstanding bugs I think Nov 11 00:20:43 Mali utgard is 2008 gpu, meh Nov 11 00:21:01 Sgx is outright bullshit though Nov 11 00:21:22 marex-cloud: well, they do not sell them as product so you can't count as that Nov 11 00:21:41 marex-cloud: they sell as IP block so SoC vendors implement them Nov 11 00:22:51 marex-cloud: as anything better than Mali 4xx MP is way too expensive (or consumes too much RAM) everybody with Mail is still on GLES2 Mali 4xx which is sad Nov 11 00:23:40 marex-cloud: so for the same level of devices SGX ones are usually more advanced regarding GPU than Mali ones Nov 11 00:24:05 marex-cloud: but SGX driver coding level is outstandingly bad Nov 11 00:24:41 I wonder what apple did, whether they wrote their own driver or what ... Nov 11 00:24:59 marex-cloud: I have to fix so many bugs every day and there is still no end to that... :( Nov 11 00:25:28 Btw Soc vendors don't 'implement' stuff, they synthesise stufd Nov 11 00:25:42 slapin: sgx ? Nov 11 00:26:01 marex-cloud: I think they just bought a few imgtec engineers, put them in cage and made them everything work by starting fire under the cage Nov 11 00:26:54 marex-cloud: well, the Mali/SGX block require a lot of supplemental things, so they have to wire that with verilog/whatever Nov 11 00:27:17 Well if 60%+ if your income is from one company , you're a moron^W^W^Wyou put your best people on the job there Nov 11 00:27:27 marex-cloud: that's why same IP block works a different way on different SoCs Nov 11 00:27:47 marex-cloud: also you can disable things, implement ways to access memory, etc. Nov 11 00:28:01 slapin: Mali usually works the same all over, I doubt there's much wiring to be done Nov 11 00:28:50 slapin: I don't think _you_ can do that, I suspect you get a block with specific configuration for which you paid from ARM Nov 11 00:29:09 marex-cloud: Mali require dedicated AXI bus and SGX does not (it can be implemented on many kinds of SoCs like intel, mips, ppc, arm) Nov 11 00:29:12 Sure, arm surely has some stuff to generate that package Nov 11 00:29:45 So? The Mali IP just has axi sticking out of the IP Nov 11 00:29:51 nothing unusual really Nov 11 00:30:03 marex-cloud: also some SoCs have dedicated clock for Mali some not, and frequencies sometimes differ Nov 11 00:30:06 You can add axi-to-whatever bridge Nov 11 00:30:19 marex-cloud: also ways to access memory and handling caches are different Nov 11 00:30:32 That's a detail, there are clock sticking out of the block, megt Nov 11 00:30:50 Handling what caches? Nov 11 00:30:59 Both Mali and CPU has a cache Nov 11 00:31:06 marex-cloud: you can heva various cache behaviors Nov 11 00:31:18 marex-cloud: i.e. Renesas have custom caches Nov 11 00:31:28 The Mali has a DMA engine, So it's up to you to handle that Nov 11 00:31:31 marex-cloud: also they have custom iommu stuff Nov 11 00:31:53 That's kinda irrelevant for the GPU Nov 11 00:32:08 The bus interface is a detail Nov 11 00:32:21 marex-cloud: SGX is very customizable, i.e. you can disable lots of things on SoC level Nov 11 00:32:54 marex-cloud: all this stuff require SoC designer attention and is quite customizable Nov 11 00:32:57 No, you buy an IP with specific configuration Nov 11 00:33:17 You get that and then integrate it Nov 11 00:33:23 marex-cloud: with Mali probably yes, but with SGX it is funnier Nov 11 00:33:38 Sure, you cannot be a moron, but wiring a bus is not rocket science Nov 11 00:34:38 marex-cloud: the integration can be done with shovels and sticks (i.e. problems accessing RAM in some cases due to bus width due to layouts) Nov 11 00:35:42 marex-cloud: like having funny custom DMA engines fixing-up shitty integration of IP block (somewhat killing performance). Nov 11 00:36:00 Mali has its own dma Nov 11 00:36:13 slapin: maybe you can bribe the design tools? :-3 Nov 11 00:36:36 marex-cloud: yes, but you can have RAM behind fancy controller and you need to add custom stuff Nov 11 00:37:39 marex-cloud: bribery doesn't work this way, you can't resolve technical problems this way Nov 11 00:38:29 (lol) Nov 11 00:39:03 slapin: DRAM controllers usually have standard platform bus interface Nov 11 00:39:16 Today's mostly axi Nov 11 00:40:40 marex-cloud: i.e. you have custom L3 cache controller, and your memory is single-channel and you require arbitration between the to or all your DMA is for nothing Nov 11 00:41:10 marex-cloud: so these things are generally implemented with SGX (and worse things too) Nov 11 00:41:45 marex-cloud: I think thay have this kind of flexibility (or are hired for customization). Nov 11 00:42:34 slapin: that's up to your axi bus, not the GPU Nov 11 00:42:44 s/axi// Nov 11 00:44:45 marex-cloud: well, now I have very weird SoC here which is MMU-less MIPS with SGX and having custom bus controller, uses SGX540 and operates at 200MHz (both CPU and GPU) Nov 11 00:45:42 marex-cloud: this is SoC for automation (DIN-rail form factor board, climate control panel) Nov 11 00:46:45 marex-cloud: very slow, btw, and have funny screen which retains picture without power Nov 11 00:47:15 marex-cloud: and I never seen Mali working on anything but ARM Nov 11 00:47:40 marex-cloud: SGX is everywhere and bus-independent Nov 11 00:48:10 marex-cloud: probably that is why the drivers are so bad... Nov 11 00:50:20 slapin: in Embedded, it's mostly arm anyway Nov 11 00:50:49 heh people on street still celebrate revolution, it is already Nov 11 and almost 4am... Nov 11 00:52:57 marex-cloud: well, PVR stuff is quite popular anyway, my experience is mostly from dirt cheap hardware and renesas stuff, also I can see into stuff and hardware manuals, but have nothing for Mali except for some old partial source code, so I cant objectively compare Nov 11 00:53:55 marex-cloud: I just say that for dirt-cheap hardware SGX stuff is generally more advanced (i.e GLES3) than Mali stuff (i.e GLES2) Nov 11 00:55:48 also ti have long history with pvr Nov 11 01:01:11 I only saw SGX on renesas, the rest was mostly GPUless/vivante/mali/... Nov 11 01:01:19 oh, maybe ingenic mips had sgx Nov 11 01:01:33 oh and TI, right, they don't have usable GPU Nov 11 01:11:26 I wonder why they don't as you now can download SGX drivers and make them work if you're lucky... Nov 11 01:13:37 well not so long ago (2005's?) SGX had all the market IIRC Nov 11 01:14:18 but they were too selfish... Nov 11 01:18:49 slapin: imaginationtech management is apparently bunch of morons greedy as fuck Nov 11 01:18:58 slapin: it backfired on them now, and they;re doom Nov 11 01:19:54 also you forget intel SoCs and some apple stuff Nov 11 01:20:33 well, they still have market and had to become flexible Nov 11 01:20:51 now you can get drivers and stuff Nov 11 01:22:59 Mali is not a piece of cake either, they even did not make proper drivers to support 4.x kernels Nov 11 01:23:08 bastards Nov 11 01:23:17 even pvr people did that Nov 11 01:25:19 also having SGX sources for not your device + binaries from your device you can convert from android to X11, but you can't do such stuff with Mali as they do not abstract build system Nov 11 01:26:49 so this stuff looks sick, I hate it, I now have to dig into that stuff to implement 16-bit modes which pvr people did not care to implement.... Nov 11 01:27:41 Mali is a fancy mem2mem dma, sure it works on 4.x Nov 11 01:28:24 btw another flexibility with SGX is that in hardware it is framebuffer-format-independent, so your 2D hardware can be anything, but you will have to fuck around drivers Nov 11 01:28:41 marex-cloud: it manages fucking drm buffers Nov 11 01:28:59 Good night Nov 11 01:29:02 marex-cloud: they did more or less working driver for new cards Nov 11 01:29:19 marex-cloud: but no much luck for 400s :( Nov 11 01:29:36 I use 400MP2 on 4.9 Nov 11 01:29:57 marex-cloud: link? Nov 11 01:30:21 marex-cloud: does it use DRM stuff or thy still use custom buffers? Nov 11 01:30:34 Zynqmp bsp or meta-Xilinx Nov 11 01:30:35 marex-cloud: because mine do not support DMABUFs even Nov 11 01:31:17 marex-cloud: hope somebody will do something for A64s Nov 11 01:31:17 It supports importing dmabufs as textures, if that’s what you mean Nov 11 01:31:37 marex-cloud: no, I mean support interop with dmabufs Nov 11 01:31:42 Unlikely Nov 11 01:31:47 marex-cloud: i.e. for rendering Nov 11 01:32:05 marex-cloud: the drivers from mali site do support drm with dmabufs fine Nov 11 01:32:16 marex-cloud: but these do not work on 400 Nov 11 01:32:27 What you probably mean is gbm support Nov 11 01:32:42 marex-cloud: gbm is wayland stuff Nov 11 01:33:12 Gbm is Mesa stuff, it has nothing to do with wayland Nov 11 01:33:17 marex-cloud: I'm more into drm framebuffer allocation/deallocation Nov 11 01:33:39 Forget that with mali400 blobs Nov 11 01:33:46 Not there and won’t be Nov 11 01:34:02 Gbm can be enabled tho Nov 11 01:34:06 Gingham Nov 11 01:34:13 Grrrr Nov 11 01:34:17 Gnight Nov 11 01:35:19 marex-cloud: I don't need gbm, I want to get rid of UMs (or something, custom abstraction) Nov 11 01:35:30 marex-cloud: gnight Nov 11 01:35:38 Ump? Nov 11 01:35:43 marex-cloud: yep Nov 11 01:35:49 That’s deprecated Nov 11 01:35:58 marex-cloud: most performance is lost there Nov 11 01:36:04 Nope Nov 11 01:36:13 marex-cloud: yep, I want tit to use drm stuff directly Nov 11 01:36:19 *it Nov 11 01:36:22 fuck Nov 11 01:36:36 I need to go to bed too... Nov 11 01:36:43 4:36 here Nov 11 01:36:55 DRM is not happening with Mali utgard, forget it Nov 11 01:37:13 Maybe with Lima driver Nov 11 01:37:38 marex-cloud: I had some luck with fucking it up to use dmabufs, but never finished it Nov 11 01:39:00 marex-cloud: used some reverce engineering on blob and made some hijack library but it was too much work... Nov 11 01:40:00 marex-cloud: I just wanted it to stop hogging CPU copying large buffers Nov 11 01:41:29 I also have only fucked-up android drivers running via lib to pretend it is android, so I have all hell I can... I need to try armbian and see if it is any better... Nov 11 01:41:47 Just use dmabuf importing, it’s usually the texture converter which wastes cpu cycles , supported since blob 6.x or so Nov 11 01:42:36 marex-cloud: that is a problem i was solving, I need to reduce CPU usage **** ENDING LOGGING AT Sat Nov 11 03:00:02 2017