**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Tue Jun 12 02:59:56 2007 Jun 12 03:08:31 They're on the forums over at internettablettalk.com Jun 12 03:08:47 Actually, the recent versions of MM should download them for you. Jun 12 03:08:59 Hit download in the map repositories window. Jun 12 03:12:37 derf: Huh. Never noticed that. Jun 12 03:33:31 edt: have you search the forums at Internet Tablet Talk? Jun 12 03:33:40 http://internettablettalk.com/ Jun 12 03:56:08 man so bored.... I need some new apps to play with in my N800 :) Jun 12 04:02:49 same Jun 12 04:03:04 compiled a bunch of camera apps.. Jun 12 04:03:11 but can't seem to get them to work.. Jun 12 04:03:26 any streaming ones? Jun 12 04:04:36 all of them.. Jun 12 04:04:45 but can't get the camera called.. Jun 12 04:05:00 ahhh Jun 12 04:05:13 the ffmpeg motion....works..actually got it connected via winamp... Jun 12 04:05:19 but thats all.. Jun 12 04:05:21 no pics.. Jun 12 04:05:25 video Jun 12 04:08:23 did you read the api call on maemo for the camera? Jun 12 04:08:31 The original "camera" app that is include w/ the N800 takes picture VERY fast, you could snap snap snap Jun 12 04:08:41 the newer ones are very slow Jun 12 04:09:22 IMHO, the new features doesn't make up for the slowness :( Jun 12 04:10:03 I rether sacrifice speed and gaina feature :) Jun 12 04:10:13 yes Jun 12 04:10:29 i read the api call for it.. Jun 12 04:10:45 not if the feautes, like the first camera was just a "prettier" GUI Jun 12 04:11:23 there was no video option... at least they are making a attempt for video... Jun 12 04:12:16 I just wish it was better :) Jun 12 04:12:35 or at least it could be share with family Jun 12 04:29:44 I just want to be able to video chat with somebody. Jun 12 04:30:01 Everybody I know is either on Mac or too incompetent. Jun 12 04:37:59 lol Jun 12 04:38:12 skype users video chat.... Jun 12 04:38:34 but skype seems to be a dream right now... Jun 12 05:55:01 hi there Jun 12 05:56:05 so... Jun 12 05:56:57 i have a little (<100 lines) C-Programm for my n800 wich uses gstreamer and doesn't work - is somebody willed to look over it and tell me what i'm doing wrong?? Jun 12 05:57:10 i really can't find any more ressources to look at Jun 12 05:59:59 * dbudb moved to #gstreamer <- that one may be a better location for me ;) Jun 12 06:10:18 python setup.py build seems to be trying to use.. Jun 12 06:10:38 /scratchbox/compilers/host-gcc/bin/gcc Jun 12 06:10:59 how do i get it to use the valid gcc Jun 12 06:12:19 correct folder seems to be Jun 12 06:12:46 /scratchbox/compilers/bin/gcc Jun 12 06:13:27 getting these errors from it calling the incorrect folder Jun 12 06:13:51 unable to execute /scratchbox/compilers/host-gcc/bin/gcc: No such file or directory Jun 12 06:13:51 error: command '/scratchbox/compilers/host-gcc/bin/gcc' failed with exit status 1 Jun 12 06:17:51 building python is a bit more trickier than building "normal" apps, since the python builds first some version of python which is then used to build the rest. I never managed to build it.. Jun 12 06:18:32 im here looking for a make file or a configure file.... Jun 12 06:18:49 im so new Jun 12 06:19:01 then python is not the best place to start ;) Jun 12 06:19:16 is there something wrong with existing python packages? Jun 12 06:19:18 so how do i call the correct GCC Jun 12 06:19:27 like I said, I never managed to do it Jun 12 06:19:38 before running the pthon setup.py Jun 12 06:19:50 wheres kontorri when ya need him Jun 12 06:20:23 I would guess he can't help you either, he probably just uses python.. Jun 12 06:20:25 is there something wrong with existing python packages? Jun 12 06:20:31 no Jun 12 06:20:40 why then you are trying to compile them? Jun 12 06:20:57 i'm trying to compile a module Jun 12 06:21:08 http://zope.org/Products/ZopeInterface/ Jun 12 06:21:44 ok Jun 12 06:22:24 i know.let me visit the python channel Jun 12 06:22:43 try asking from the people who build the python packages for maemo.. Jun 12 06:39:51 I'm trying to use system("sudo iwconfig etc"); in my program, it works nice but I can't get rid of the password asking. I added iwconfig and my program to the sudoers with NOPASSWD tags but still it keeps asking for password. How could I get it running without password? Jun 12 06:54:29 got it Jun 12 06:54:46 using python was the mistake.. Jun 12 06:54:58 i tried using python2.5 and that work... Jun 12 06:55:00 yeah Jun 12 06:55:59 does somebody know whats wrong when the scratchbox cannot apt-get update?? Jun 12 06:56:57 i get a lot of "Failed to fetch http://repository.dummy.com Could not resolve 'repository.dummy.com'" Jun 12 06:57:40 Gathaja: echo "user ALL = NOPASSWD: /bin/su" >> /etc/sudoers Jun 12 06:59:22 wget google.at Jun 12 06:59:25 works Jun 12 07:00:51 dbudb, check your /scratchbox/etc/nsswitch.conf (and resolv.conf) Jun 12 07:01:23 what should be there(or not there)?? Jun 12 07:01:50 dbudb, http://lists.scratchbox.org/pipermail/scratchbox-users/2007-March/000906.html Jun 12 07:04:26 now i've changed that one - but it does not affect it... Jun 12 07:04:37 ...do i have to restart in the old windows manner?? Jun 12 07:07:03 inz: do i have to restart?? or to reload any programm?? Jun 12 07:07:27 dbudb, you shouldn't need to restart anything Jun 12 07:07:57 [sbox-SDK_ARMEL: ~] > cat /scratchbox/etc/nsswitch.conf | grep hosts Jun 12 07:08:02 hosts: files dsn Jun 12 07:08:23 crap Jun 12 07:08:34 =) Jun 12 07:08:35 dsn and dns may beee two different things Jun 12 07:09:05 i hate myself soo much.. ;) Jun 12 07:09:18 wooohow - works!! Jun 12 07:09:50 great Jun 12 07:19:23 for some reason my program doesn't seem to run at all with sudo Jun 12 07:35:08 why would osso_initialize(..) fail only when runnin as root? Jun 12 07:35:56 Gathaja, sudo does some environment mangling... Jun 12 07:36:21 okay Jun 12 07:36:42 Gathaja, does sudo run-standalone.sh work? Jun 12 07:37:39 sudo: must be setuid root Jun 12 07:37:57 ah, then you need to alter the sudoers too Jun 12 07:38:19 err... Jun 12 07:40:44 sigh Jun 12 08:20:33 Aloha! Jun 12 08:55:05 i have no n800 around me - can somebody compile a piece of code and test if it works for me (assumption: you have a n800, a .wav file on it and know how to compile for it) Jun 12 08:56:49 code would be at http://pastebin.ca/560982 Jun 12 09:02:46 little changes and with description: http://pastebin.ca/560988 Jun 12 09:48:11 wumpus \o/ Jun 12 09:51:05 Donmart :) Jun 12 09:51:12 khad je ff gewhoist Jun 12 09:52:57 kulve: are you around? Jun 12 09:53:04 yup Jun 12 09:53:41 I'm getting error on ogg when trying to ask for: query_position(gst.FORMAT_TIME) Jun 12 09:53:59 Is there another way to get current position? Jun 12 09:54:09 hmm.. I think we have had problems with the positions too Jun 12 09:54:19 I'm no ogg/gst guru. I've just packaged those ;) Jun 12 09:54:47 ahh.. just wondering if you had idea. Jun 12 09:55:06 If not, I'll try to figure something else. Jun 12 09:55:15 I think the integer ogg decorders (or gst plugins) are not very complete.. Jun 12 09:55:57 try asking in the dev mailing list, I'll point kilikali gst people to it :) Jun 12 09:57:39 Were you able to get seeking working in kilikali? Jun 12 09:58:11 nope, but I'm not sure how much effort there has been on that.. Jun 12 09:59:03 Some broken link suggests that HildonAppView is deprecated but I don't anything that would indicate that in the new maemo pages. Is it really deprecated? Jun 12 10:00:03 yup Jun 12 10:00:10 (I think) Jun 12 10:00:43 And in sardine (hildon-1) the code has been removed Jun 12 10:00:58 HildonProgram replaced HildonApp, dunno about the view though.. Jun 12 10:01:09 HildonWindow replaces HildonAppView Jun 12 10:01:26 yeah, I was just about paste the code about that :) Jun 12 10:03:05 Ah, yes. HildonWindow has the things I wanted. Jun 12 10:03:12 Thank you Jun 12 10:03:51 dbudb: gst-launch-0.10 filesrc location=yahoo.wav ! wavparse ! dsppcmsink works on my N800 Jun 12 10:04:27 dbudb: if that helps you Jun 12 10:12:58 kulve: Is there any way to know that playing ogg has ended? Jun 12 10:13:31 player.getstate stays in GST_STATE_PLAYING even after the song has ended. Jun 12 10:15:23 we get EOS signal (or something like that) Jun 12 10:18:08 How can I get that? Jun 12 10:20:46 /* Bus callback to get end of stream and errors */ Jun 12 10:20:58 we have some callback set to get messages and one of them is EOS Jun 12 10:21:56 ok. Jun 12 10:59:34 I can't find an example on how to use those HildonWindows. What's the equivalent of hildon_app_set_appview()? Do I just gtk_widget_hide() the other and then gtk_widget_show() the other? Jun 12 11:00:55 Efreal, if you want to change from one window to another, then yes Jun 12 11:01:19 Yep Jun 12 11:01:23 Efrael, if you just want to get the other window on top, I think you could use gtk_window_present Jun 12 11:06:37 Hm, that might work too Jun 12 11:18:16 If you guys have noticed on the maemo roadmap is the support for BT headsets Jun 12 11:21:22 I tried years ago my bt headset (mono) on my desktop computer. The sounds was so bad that I haven't really wanted to hear it again ;) Of course newer headsets might be totally different.. Jun 12 12:47:58 argh.. what would be the correct line to add to sources.list so I could fetch the source from the debian tree directly. the maemo tree is rather sparse Jun 12 12:49:54 fatal-, deb-src http:///debian main Jun 12 12:50:28 fatal-, for example deb-src http://ftp.fi.debian.org/debian testing main Jun 12 12:52:55 hmm, thanks Jun 12 12:53:58 yeah, just copy the deb line and change it to deb-src Jun 12 13:06:35 Hey, is there a tool that I can use with n800 to take screenshots? Jun 12 13:07:48 apt-get install osso-screenshot-tool Jun 12 13:07:57 * konttori just released two new themes: NuvoBlack and NuvoPearl and would like to take screenshots to add to downloads.maemo.org entry Jun 12 13:08:29 no task bar application anymore? Jun 12 13:08:46 osso-statusbar-cpu can use osso-screenshot-tool Jun 12 13:09:00 Err Jun 12 13:09:01 Actually Jun 12 13:09:11 I think the bora version is borked and doesn't contain the defaults Jun 12 13:09:28 Maybe the "other one" is in better shape, dunno Jun 12 13:11:01 what 'other one'` Jun 12 13:26:31 konttori: you can install osso-screenshot-tool from command line Jun 12 13:27:06 I installed it and it seems to work. I just liked the status bar icon much more. Jun 12 13:27:16 It was so easy to take screenshots with that. Jun 12 13:27:21 yeah Jun 12 13:27:25 konttori: not quite what you asked for, but you can use vnc and take screenshots from a remote host. Jun 12 13:28:00 I'm seriously missing the point why nokia doesn't include screenshot tool by default. That's probably the first thing a review writer wants. Jun 12 13:28:24 And I assume Nokia want's reviews of N800 as well. Jun 12 13:31:21 Anyway, NuvoBlack and NuvoPearl themes are available for download from https://garage.maemo.org/frs/?group_id=36 Jun 12 13:31:30 Also theme maker 1.0 has just been uploaded there. Jun 12 13:32:05 NuvoBlack is seriously cool looking black theme and NuvoPearl is a polished version of NuvoTheme. Jun 12 13:32:34 After installing, set the theme manually. Jun 12 13:35:15 They are both really coherent themes and do not contain unnecessary clutter. Jun 12 13:36:31 konttori: there is a screenshot tool Jun 12 13:36:38 Really? Jun 12 13:37:05 the cpuload applet contains a screenshot function Jun 12 13:38:14 http://downloads.maemo.org/product/load-applet/ < although this is for os2006, not sure if it installs ok on latest? Jun 12 13:38:19 maybe someone knows? Jun 12 13:38:35 I've tested it before and then it didn't install. Jun 12 13:38:39 I'll try again now. Jun 12 13:39:13 hmm Jun 12 13:39:18 http://maemo.org/community/wiki/OS2007_Tested_Applications Jun 12 13:39:21 this says it wroks Jun 12 13:39:32 but I havent tried this lately Jun 12 13:41:37 unable to install Jun 12 13:41:51 application package is not compatible with current software Jun 12 13:43:45 konttori: http://tuomas.kulve.fi/blog/2007/01/17/maemo-screen-grabber/ Jun 12 13:43:53 worked for me Jun 12 13:44:43 thanks Jun 12 13:48:54 I installed: http://gnuite.com:8080/nokia770/load-applet-run/load-applet-run_0.4.3-2_armel.deb Jun 12 13:50:07 ok this website has amazing design (use of video). www.RonPaulTV.com Jun 12 13:50:35 how does it do the special effects on the video? Argh! Jun 12 13:51:36 special fx? Jun 12 13:51:56 yeah when switching channels it does real-time effects on the video stream Jun 12 13:53:18 the effect is on a still Jun 12 13:53:22 hmm Jun 12 13:53:52 such effect should be quite doable in flash which the page uses.. Jun 12 13:54:04 does the site require flash 9? Jun 12 13:56:22 i use iceweasel + flash plugin Jun 12 13:57:58 they are really not simple effects gla55, - they speak to someone who really understands the codecs used and can modify the stream in realtime Jun 12 13:59:37 and no, flash itself doesn't provide for any kind of video distortions like you see there -- not the seperating of chroma/luma info etc. Jun 12 13:59:59 that is some seriously advanced real-time video stream hackery Jun 12 14:00:02 black magic! :D Jun 12 14:03:52 pupnik_: it just happens to a still of the video? isn't it possible nowadays to grab a frame of video? Jun 12 14:10:09 agree, it's grabbing a frame of the ending video and the next starting one, then generating the flv transition stream in real time Jun 12 14:10:47 it's not happening on the client side in flash, afaict Jun 12 14:11:30 www.digg.com/2008_us_elections/Ron_Paul_TV_Is_LIVE Jun 12 14:12:51 i don't really see the effect having anything to do with the next starting stream? Jun 12 14:14:29 just not that high fps twist and static and then the next stream starts Jun 12 14:17:41 oh i need to look again Jun 12 14:19:09 youre right Jun 12 15:32:13 Hm, what would be the easiest way to avoid sshd starting after installing OpenSSH? Jun 12 15:33:10 somebody ought to separate openssh into independent client and server packages Jun 12 15:33:20 that would be nice, yes Jun 12 15:33:24 like it's done in ubuntu Jun 12 15:33:32 I'm hesitant to enable RD mode and what not to gain root and muck about with the runlevel stuff Jun 12 15:35:45 ah, apparently there is an update-rc.d to configure boot services Jun 12 15:35:52 maybe that even works without root *tries* Jun 12 16:31:52 has anyone gotten Google's traffic view working w/ Maemo Mapper?! Jun 12 16:34:04 <`0660> i wonder how it's supposed to work with mm Jun 12 16:34:14 <`0660> but can you use it with opera? Jun 12 16:38:07 yes, I can Jun 12 16:38:57 I don't know if it can... My initial guess is that the URI is different Jun 12 16:39:19 traffice only works in certain regions and zoom levels Jun 12 16:39:29 s/traffice/traffic Jun 12 16:45:08 <`0660> my guess is that it requires javascript Jun 12 16:45:17 <`0660> which mm does not have Jun 12 17:30:32 Konttori thanks for the new themes Jun 12 17:30:55 Cool. Did you try them both? Jun 12 17:31:37 I am now.... Jun 12 17:46:58 Kontori arethis done with 12pt? Jun 12 17:47:04 are this* Jun 12 17:51:13 ops Jun 12 17:52:35 Konttori: They are very nice!!! the NuvoNlack is preaty sharp! They are not 12pt right?!? I am in to the small fonts :) Jun 12 17:53:02 They are 12 Jun 12 17:53:23 Just download theme maker and change the font size. Both themes are included as default templates. Jun 12 17:55:32 konttori: btw, i tested your player and noticed that there's a problem when you have more than 23 songs in a album, cos you can't see them... Jun 12 18:00:09 sweet! Thanks Kontorri! Jun 12 18:00:17 damn typos Jun 12 18:02:32 Lyndon: Indeed. It's a problem. I just haven't had the time to fix it. Jun 12 18:02:57 I hoped 23 would be good enough so that people can live with it until I am able to find a good solution for it. Jun 12 18:06:30 good to know, try to find more pleasing than canolas ;) Jun 12 18:08:11 what does it use? Jun 12 18:14:02 well the problem is that you have to scroll with arrows over the song that you wan't to play, so you can't just tap over it... Jun 12 18:14:15 Does anyone know what kind of a gstreamer sink maemo uses by default? Jun 12 18:14:38 hey konttori Jun 12 18:19:37 is there any default sink.. Jun 12 18:20:13 looks like they use dspmp3sink usually. Jun 12 18:20:18 for mp3 anyway Jun 12 18:20:32 yeah, and dsppcmsink for pcm Jun 12 18:20:51 I'm wondering if that uses ALSA in the background, or OSS? Jun 12 18:21:31 it's other way around Jun 12 18:21:31 hey trevarhan Jun 12 18:21:41 all audio goes through dsp Jun 12 18:22:00 so it's not like a desktop system which has alsa or oss Jun 12 18:22:08 (well, alsa nowadays) Jun 12 18:23:03 Alsa exists on the n800. And dspmp3sink is the final stop in the gst pipeline. So either it writes directly to the device, or it uses ALSA SPDIF or something. I'm just curious what happens. Jun 12 18:23:33 Is dspmp3sink closed source? Jun 12 18:24:06 trevarthan: yes Jun 12 18:24:12 damn. Jun 12 18:24:32 does it pass through alsa? Or does it write directly to the hardware? Jun 12 18:24:50 isn't there any other way to feed that audiodata into that bluetooth system? Jun 12 18:25:21 like what? Jun 12 18:25:37 trevarthan: It passes the mp3 stream to the dsp which decodes and outputs it Jun 12 18:26:11 zuh: but how does it get it to the dsp? by writing to /dev/dsp*? through a kernel API directly? how? Jun 12 18:26:39 Cause /dev/dsp* are alsa devices, aren't they? I might be able to reroute those using alsa config files. Jun 12 18:26:53 build a sink that gets feeded with the decoded audio-data and transfers that into a higher level of that a2dp stack Jun 12 18:27:21 actually /dev/dsp are oss thing, alsa stuff is under /dev/snd ;) (afaik) Jun 12 18:27:22 dev: is there a way to change which gst sink an application uses? Jun 12 18:27:30 I thought the sinks were hard coded. Jun 12 18:27:39 Most likely they are Jun 12 18:28:02 sure, but one can change them in ones own application Jun 12 18:28:05 zuh: /dev/dsp is an alsa thing when alsa is installed. Uses an emulation layer. Jun 12 18:28:48 dev: yeah. I'm hoping to change the existing applications and save the work. Of course we can write new apps however we want. I'm hoping to salvage the use of canola and friends. Jun 12 18:29:03 So it's an emulation layer, not The Alsa Way ;) Jun 12 18:29:44 zuh: point is /dev/dsp* are usually able to be re-routed using alsa config files on an alsa system. Jun 12 18:29:59 I'm not 100% sure how the data is transferred to the dsp processor, but I'm fairly certain it doesn't involve anything visible in the file system Jun 12 18:30:38 so probably dspmp3sink bypasses the alsa api? Jun 12 18:31:14 there's some document about the DSP api for linux which explains how it is done Jun 12 18:31:28 it's fairly standardized Jun 12 18:31:53 ...or not, apparently http://dspgateway.sourceforge.net/pub/index.php?Page=What_Is _does_ say it might go somewhere under /dev Jun 12 18:33:22 that's the linux kernel way... Jun 12 18:33:42 there's also source code for the mp3 sink etc somewhere, using that dspgateway Jun 12 18:34:13 oh cool. so it's not proprietary. only the kernel module is. Jun 12 18:35:31 ARG. Sometimes when I hit CTRL+C during a remote SSH session to my n800 it closes the session but hangs to tty open. When that happens enough I run out of ttys and have to reboot. Any way to free them up? Jun 12 18:37:15 Hmm, /dev/dsptask/ seems to contain some stuff Jun 12 18:39:40 dunno if you can use them directly... Jun 12 18:44:18 afaik, the dsp writes the audio to audio hardware codec. Alsa and oss has nothing to do here Jun 12 18:44:34 the alsa layer just writes data to dsp pretending to be an alsa driver Jun 12 18:50:02 well, I'll have to read more about that dsp gateway stuff later. Boss is back. :) Jun 12 18:57:53 the dsp gateway stuff is opensource and it doesn't dictate about audio usage Jun 12 18:58:34 but the way that it200x uses the dsp tasks do Jun 12 20:13:53 btw, does maemo automatically take care of uninstalling orphaned dependencies? Jun 12 20:15:12 Sho_, the application manager does afaik Jun 12 20:16:21 wooooooooooo! Jun 12 20:16:32 Viva la Revolution!!! Jun 12 20:17:15 tko_: let's see if uninstalling canola also removes avahi-daemon, then .. Jun 12 20:37:12 anybody done any work on snes emulators? Jun 12 20:39:10 nah. only ever rudely ported one nes emu to symbian.. Jun 12 20:43:37 tko_: seems to take care of it, cool Jun 12 20:44:17 apparently zsnes now has 100% c code Jun 12 20:44:19 Canola seemed nice, but there's no way to manually type in the host and port of a DAAP server, and I can't get avahi/multicast to work in this convoluted LAN for the live of me Jun 12 20:44:34 Sho_: :-( Jun 12 20:44:48 Sho_: canola provides no input (typing) so far Jun 12 20:45:10 k-s[WORK]: I'd be okay with editing some config file, really :) Jun 12 20:45:23 k-s[WORK]: some way to add something to the "Shared Music" list without relying on avahi Jun 12 20:45:49 Sho_: check if there is a way to hardcode it in a config file avahi uses Jun 12 20:46:05 Sho_: you can use upnp, but you'd fall in the same multicast issue Jun 12 20:46:25 hmm, not a bad idea, maybe I can use an avahi-daemon config to trick Canola :) Jun 12 20:46:58 * Sho_ just got his N800 today and is pretty impressed overall Jun 12 20:47:55 yes Jun 12 20:48:42 k-s[WORK]: you're a canola dev? Jun 12 20:48:50 Sho_: yes Jun 12 20:49:24 Sho_: some other here are, like lsobral and others not present now Jun 12 20:49:27 k-s[WORK]: ah, nice to meet you. kde upstream here, unfortunately we don't yet have a presence on maemo I guess ;-) Jun 12 20:49:41 Sho_: I'm a kde user and big fan Jun 12 20:50:03 Sho_: I bring zrussin here to talk about Arthur painting system Jun 12 20:50:09 at bossa conference Jun 12 20:50:16 k-s[WORK]: hehe. he's zackr on freenode Jun 12 20:51:03 Sho_: also, there is one guy (kito or something like this), that had kde4 running on device Jun 12 20:51:12 Sho_: lot of effort to compile it, but runs fine Jun 12 20:51:38 * k-s[WORK] has a patch accepted by kde: the little search bar in icon selection dialog ;-) Jun 12 20:51:39 k-s[WORK]: yup, I remember him ... he showed it around on #kde-devel a while back, which is how I learned of the device Jun 12 20:51:49 great Jun 12 20:52:29 Sho_: device is almost great, the memory bus sucks so we cannot do great graphics without tearing and bluetooth is unexplored Jun 12 20:52:44 but screen is big and bright, cpu and memory not that bad Jun 12 20:53:04 we lack applications, but that is our task to solve :-) Jun 12 20:53:42 I was looking for an affordable handheld with a sufficiently big screen to comfortably browse and read for a pretty long time, at first glance the N800 seems to make that wish come true pretty well Jun 12 20:53:53 now I'm working on Evas and EFL port to Nokia... do you remember Enlightenment? ;-) Jun 12 20:54:09 Sho_: yes, it's excellent for that Jun 12 20:55:32 hm, I wonder if it has smbfs/cifs installed by default *looks* Jun 12 20:55:40 no Jun 12 20:56:09 Sho_: you can just exchange files using upnp by default Jun 12 20:56:15 ah hm Jun 12 20:56:22 * Sho_ looks for precompiled kernel module Jun 12 20:56:23 Sho_: you can install ssh and use via "fish://" Jun 12 20:56:28 *a Jun 12 20:56:48 I know about NFS modules, but probably you'll find smb too Jun 12 20:57:36 looks like I'd rather want cifs.ko, because it works with busybox' mount rather than need smbclient/smbmount, I guess Jun 12 20:59:59 ah, there's a cifs for it2007 Jun 12 21:06:58 hm, maemo.org becomes unresponsive quite often Jun 12 21:12:23 freedom! Jun 12 21:16:59 gotta go Jun 12 21:44:52 yay, got cifs working Jun 12 21:46:41 Bomb, bomb, bomb Iran! Jun 12 22:01:38 braaaap Jun 12 22:12:31 sfai fer windows..not bad... Jun 12 22:12:36 safari Jun 13 01:42:50 I copied the maemopad example and attempted to change its name. now i get the error "dpkg-source: error: source package has two conflicting values - newproject and maemopad". I cant seem to figure out where i need to change the name to straighten this out Jun 13 01:46:05 Anyone able to confirm that Planet Maemo (http://planet.maemo.org/) and Bugzilla (https://maemo.org/bugzilla/) are both DOWN right now? Jun 13 01:48:00 Milhouse2: I think the whole maemo.org cluster of sites is moderately fucked Jun 13 01:48:40 the home page and wiki (midgard) seem to be ok Jun 13 01:48:52 but several deeper links are, as you say, fucked Jun 13 01:48:57 pissing me off Jun 13 01:49:46 for the last couple of weeks all of them have been either broken or very slow Jun 13 01:50:11 i don't suppose i have any right to be pissed off though - it's not as if i'm paying for a serivce but a degree of professional hosting isn't too much to ask is it? Jun 13 01:50:21 whores drawers Jun 13 01:50:32 up... down... up... down... Jun 13 01:50:38 * lle2 shrugs Jun 13 01:52:36 I just tried to validate the Planet Maemo url via the w3c validation service and it is indeed giving "Service Unavailable" errors, so that helps confirm it isn't my end thats causing the problem. thanks lle2 for checking/replying. :) Jun 13 01:52:51 np ;) Jun 13 01:53:11 funny thing is that the layout is broken on n800 Jun 13 01:53:26 beginning to wish they'd left it unchanged Jun 13 01:53:37 it seems to be broken on firefox (iceweasel 2.0.0.3) as well Jun 13 01:54:03 safari xp Jun 13 01:54:10 makes me wonder what the hell they test it with Jun 13 01:54:16 test? Jun 13 01:54:32 yeah, it's more like a question, not an answer ;) Jun 13 01:55:43 working over here.. Jun 13 01:56:18 Planet Maemo still down here - http://planet.maemo.org/ Jun 13 01:56:27 news is down Jun 13 01:56:35 Make sure you refresh/ctrl-r/ctrl-f5 etc. Jun 13 01:56:51 news is planet Jun 13 01:56:52 home page (http://maemo.org) is UP for me Jun 13 01:56:55 ah, right Jun 13 01:57:26 i thougt you meant the News link on the Home page which takes you to somewhere else other than Planet! :) Jun 13 01:57:40 well it takes you to news.. Jun 13 01:57:45 Maemo can never have enough News pages!! Jun 13 01:57:59 Home->News takes you to Garage News (this is up) Jun 13 01:58:03 maemo.org/news/ is the same as planet.maemo.org Jun 13 01:58:10 it's like the login and account creation on the home page which seem to be totally unrelated Jun 13 01:58:50 Christ, there could be 3 "news" pages! Jun 13 01:59:04 News at the top takes you to maemo.org/news Jun 13 01:59:08 none of which have anything in them Jun 13 01:59:18 You are not alone. maemo has been slow and unavailable at times here too. Jun 13 01:59:20 News in the middle takes you to maemo.org/news/community Jun 13 01:59:26 and then of course there is the Planet Jun 13 01:59:35 ya Jun 13 01:59:51 maybe setting up a bunch of new mailing lists will solve the problem Jun 13 01:59:59 I worry for the future of the Internet Tablet platform if this is how they can fck up a web site Jun 13 02:00:23 No wonder the UI is so... interesting. Jun 13 02:01:59 well, we can always throw a few dozen more project managers at it, I'm sure it will help improve things Jun 13 02:02:03 actually once you get used to the UI its fairly usable. I would like it if it remembered the browswer setting for a site. eg when using rss and going to one or two sites it gets tiring to have to rezoom, ad reposition the page the same way EVERY time.... Jun 13 02:02:54 I would class that as a classic lack of attention to detail... pretty much the same problems that blight the maemo.org site redesign Jun 13 02:03:13 Initially it looks nice, then you start noticing stuff like multiple News links Jun 13 02:03:22 and have the home a refresh keys work as pgup and pgdn after the menu key is selected would really help too Jun 13 02:03:26 which each link to different News pages... Jun 13 02:03:35 Sean Luke pretty much nailed it Jun 13 02:04:02 how could the PMs have any attention to details of which their grasp is vague at best and plain wrong the rest of the time Jun 13 02:04:13 http://cs.gmu.edu/~sean/stuff/n800 - worth a read if you haven't read it already Jun 13 02:04:57 If the UI is still lacking polish after the next iteration of IT OS (which would be what - the 7th?) I might have to give up on Nokia Jun 13 02:05:17 Other vendors will eat their lunch Jun 13 02:05:39 haha, it will be a crappy lunch to eat Jun 13 02:05:44 I would pass Jun 13 02:05:47 actually a _good_ pm or manager does NOT need to understand how to do the job. Two years ago I would have said differently. I have had a good manager who does not know the how to for the last two years and our team has never been more effective. Jun 13 02:06:08 I like the concept of the tablet and the form factor, I just think Nokia are dropping the ball with the general shoddiness of the software Jun 13 02:06:12 That is "how to do the job" from a tech perspective Jun 13 02:06:14 edt: that assumes that there are non-PMs in the organization Jun 13 02:06:50 there need to be a few - we do have the n770 and n800 plus a few phones... Jun 13 02:07:57 I think you just need the right people in the right positions - a PM doesn't design the software, or dictate the look & feel. Projects like the Internet Tablet OS needs someone who focuses solely on look & feel, if you leave it to the developers you end up with... well, the Internet Tablet OS Jun 13 02:08:15 yup Jun 13 02:08:35 an apple pm/designer would have really helped Jun 13 02:08:41 I could write a book about what went wrong with the maemo software crap Jun 13 02:08:57 the mac in 83 was better than the pc is now in many ways Jun 13 02:09:09 (and yes I did have a mac 84...) Jun 13 02:09:28 In any project the look & feel guys should have final say. In fact, the look & feel guys should be outside of any project group so that they have ultimate sign off on all projects. Jun 13 02:09:49 what if the look&feel guys don't have a clue? Jun 13 02:09:56 you fire them Jun 13 02:09:58 fast Jun 13 02:10:02 really fast Jun 13 02:10:05 aye... fire 'em Jun 13 02:10:26 they're uber critical Jun 13 02:10:31 you also need a good integrator that understands perf Jun 13 02:10:35 or if they are slaves to totally moronic product management drones Jun 13 02:10:56 so they can tell the ui guys this costs too much - try again... Jun 13 02:11:10 the N800 is guite usable Jun 13 02:11:23 if you like to tap a lot Jun 13 02:11:31 so nokia did not do a bad job of the above... Jun 13 02:11:47 there is room for improvement Jun 13 02:12:58 Strong look & feel teams pays for themselves in the long run... not only do you get a more coherent product but the "not good enough, do this again" problems lessen as the developers understand the bigger picture Jun 13 02:13:10 yep Jun 13 02:13:27 its just hard to build an keep an effective team Jun 13 02:13:28 eventually the developers get onto the same wavelenghth as the look&feel guys, and at that point it becomes a good situation. Jun 13 02:14:05 I'd have thought some people would bite arms off to work on a project like this Jun 13 02:14:20 but if it's mismanaged, then i could understand people getting hacked off Jun 13 02:14:26 would make tapping hard... Jun 13 02:14:31 nose Jun 13 02:14:39 :) Jun 13 02:15:03 wherez ma update nokiaaaaaaaaaaa. Jun 13 02:15:08 I have had my n800 for a week. I think I am getting to know what it can do Jun 13 02:15:26 unique311: what update? Jun 13 02:15:32 does nokia have a schedule for the next update? Jun 13 02:15:35 hurrah - planet has returned Jun 13 02:15:49 update with skype... Jun 13 02:15:59 it was all over internettablettalk... Jun 13 02:16:13 and sdhc Jun 13 02:16:24 looks like other bits of maemo.org are still getting to their feet Jun 13 02:16:28 but i think it was a asshole trying to get on someones nerves... Jun 13 02:16:32 wonder if they looked at the SD or CFS schedulers Jun 13 02:16:42 they would help when you load the box Jun 13 02:16:44 yeah, i think sdhc has been confirmed by a reasonably reliable source (ie. no reason to doubt them!) Jun 13 02:17:24 and the also is someone working on logfs - an fs for larger flash memory devices Jun 13 02:17:27 Bugzilla is back Jun 13 02:17:42 Still slow... so no changes there. Jun 13 02:17:45 :) Jun 13 02:17:55 good, would have made me nervous Jun 13 02:17:56 if that is ready for this fall adding it and CFS/SD would make a nice update on the kernel side Jun 13 02:18:17 CFS or SD? whats that? Jun 13 02:18:39 Skype was promised "by the end of the first half of 2007" - which means by the end of June... Jun 13 02:19:29 CFS == The Completely Fair Scheduler ? Jun 13 02:19:36 hmmmm Jun 13 02:19:55 so the last friday in june? Jun 13 02:21:09 unique - yes that would be my guess, Fri 29 June Jun 13 02:21:48 Or rather, at June 29th they announce that it will be delayed slightly. To second half of 2007. Jun 13 02:22:21 i wonder if tickless timers are in the N800 kernel Jun 13 02:22:52 JussiP - possible, but so far Nokia have been pretty good with their promises Jun 13 02:23:28 I think that's up to Skype, not Nokia... Jun 13 02:23:46 or maybe both :) Jun 13 02:23:46 Milhouse2: It wouldn't matter. They aren't using a recent enough version of GTK to see any benefit. Jun 13 02:24:11 derf - i was thinking more about power saving, would tickless timers save on juice? Jun 13 02:24:21 less waking up the cpu etc. Jun 13 02:24:37 A marginal amount, maybe. Jun 13 02:25:02 edt: we're probably not going ship with the new schedulers any time soon, bad luck with timing. Jun 13 02:25:10 But more recent versions of GTK are actually optimized so that all their timers go off at the same time (unless they explicitly need to be more accurate). Jun 13 02:25:20 lle2 - no pun intended? ;) Jun 13 02:25:26 lle2 I was think N+2 Jun 13 02:25:37 where N is the current released version Jun 13 02:25:42 So, e.g., the CPU wakes up once per second, processes all the GUI timers, and then goes back to sleep. Jun 13 02:25:51 Milhouse2: :) Jun 13 02:25:57 it will take time to get the new schedulers on to omap Jun 13 02:25:58 In older versions, they are all out of sync. Jun 13 02:26:27 so if you have a 10 second timer, the cpu is woken 9 times before the timer is activated? Jun 13 02:26:29 So it will still wake up your CPU dozens/hundreds of times a second. Jun 13 02:26:31 think you will also need a timesource other than jiffies to either sd or cfs work well Jun 13 02:26:34 Milhouse2: No. Jun 13 02:26:47 derf: unless there is a shitload of timers it won't make much difference Jun 13 02:27:25 There are always a shitload of timers. Jun 13 02:27:29 doesn't sound the most efficient design from a power saving point of view Jun 13 02:27:36 when I looke in /sys I saw a dyntick setting which was on Jun 13 02:27:45 it's using dyntick Jun 13 02:27:48 think we may be using dyntick on the n800 Jun 13 02:28:05 gets woken up about four times per sec, or at least that's how it was not too long ago Jun 13 02:28:11 dyntick is for the high res and tickless timers, isn't it? Jun 13 02:28:20 Milhouse2: The point is that when you set a timer for 10 seconds, it goes off at xx:xx:xx.000 ms. Jun 13 02:28:23 Powertop for teh win. :) Jun 13 02:28:23 lle2 is the new release still based on 2.6.18 ? Jun 13 02:28:36 the immediate update to N800 is Jun 13 02:28:41 And every other timer set for n seconds also goes off at 0 ms after the second. Jun 13 02:28:48 So all the timers go off together. Jun 13 02:28:50 there's another update coming that will bump the kernel later Jun 13 02:29:34 derf - i think i understand, thanks :) Jun 13 02:29:53 didn't sdhc land on .20? Jun 13 02:29:55 But only with GTK 2.14 and later, and only if the application has been explicitly written to support it. Jun 13 02:30:05 easy to backport though Jun 13 02:30:06 lle2 there is logfs which will probably make it into mm and which will stabilze it quickly. If this happens fast enough it might pay to use it late this year Jun 13 02:30:27 edt: at the moment planning is that the second update will be 2.6.21 Jun 13 02:31:01 is there a tentative date for the second update... end Q3? Jun 13 02:31:23 can't say :) Jun 13 02:31:32 just trying to get a rough idea of the release strategy... every 3 months-ish Jun 13 02:31:38 how the aswer is when it ready Jun 13 02:31:49 s/how/hope/ Jun 13 02:31:49 edt meant: hope the aswer is when it ready Jun 13 02:31:55 that's always a good one, i try that but get funny looks from my users :( Jun 13 02:32:51 so you give scripted demos so they can see what they will get. Then you use a script you _know_ will fail and they understand its not ready just yet... Jun 13 02:33:09 next time they come by you do need that second script working.... Jun 13 02:33:34 heck if I had the time to put together a scripted demo i'd ship that instead! ;) Jun 13 02:33:52 scripted users would be better Jun 13 02:34:33 i'm sure they already are, they always ask the same things... "when will it be ready" and "why isn't it ready yet" Jun 13 02:34:34 lle2 on change I would love to see on the interface size is a page up and down. It could be done painlessly by using the refresh and home keys when the menu is active Jun 13 02:34:45 s/size/side/ Jun 13 02:34:46 edt meant: lle2 on change I would love to see on the interface side is a page up and down. It could be done painlessly by using the refresh and home keys when the menu is active Jun 13 02:35:16 edt - i think thats already discussed in bugzilla Jun 13 02:35:25 something about it being the default on the Mac, or something Jun 13 02:35:35 but it refers to the scrollbar/thumbtrack Jun 13 02:35:40 I'm silently hoping there would be a little config applet allowing remapping the keys Jun 13 02:36:10 also a memory for the browser setting for sites (maybe configurable via bookmarks) Jun 13 02:36:27 as of today I'm never using the hw keys, except the fullscreen one Jun 13 02:36:47 I often use the hw keys. All of them Jun 13 02:36:47 The hw keys are mostly unusable. Jun 13 02:37:00 digging the infobot - at work we use IRC a lot and bots are usually called "Monkey".. much more approriate Jun 13 02:37:13 Scrolling webpages with them is next to impossible, and navigating links with them is actually impossible. Jun 13 02:37:44 derf: yup, they seem to be carefully designed never to do anything useful Jun 13 02:38:04 derf depends on the webpage - they are the fastest way for me to reposition on the pages I commonly use Jun 13 02:38:09 Plus they are so hard to push... I find it easier to actually use the stylus to hit the menu button than my finger. Jun 13 02:38:17 site specific options has been discussed in bugzilla as well (I think i brought it up in relation to Flash functionality - some sites such as last.fm shouldn't disable the screen) Jun 13 02:39:04 also some sites are better rendered with "optimized view" others are scrambled... Jun 13 02:39:16 would be nice if the setting was remembered Jun 13 02:39:30 one other use for the n800 is reading books Jun 13 02:40:06 with fbreader and books from baen (alot are free) you can spend a lot of time reading Jun 13 02:40:26 and the n800 has good enough battery life for it too Jun 13 02:40:54 I think the battery lasts pretty well these days if the wlan network is a quiet one Jun 13 02:41:27 edt - Unfortunately I get the impression that Nokia have their hands tied where Opera is concerned... Nokia should have helped out with the Minimo dev or ported their own WebKit browser, we'd be in a much better position by now and not depending on some third party to pull their finger out if and only if Nokia pay them to do the development Jun 13 02:41:27 lle2 or you turn off wlan - which really helps Jun 13 02:41:52 so talk the the firefox people Jun 13 02:42:03 edt - I'd buy an extended battery tomorrow if Nokia sold one Jun 13 02:42:16 Milhouse2: people are working on the mozilla based browser Jun 13 02:42:27 unless nokia have a really stupid contract firefox should be do able. Jun 13 02:42:52 lle2 good news - not that opera is working badly Jun 13 02:42:59 it just takes time, not trivial to get performance and stability into shape Jun 13 02:43:05 I believe Nokia were well in with the Mozilla Foundation a few years ago, even sponsoring Minimo but they don't seem to be that involved in it's development - if they are it's one guy Jun 13 02:43:32 it's not just one guy Jun 13 02:43:49 lle2 do you know if anyone is looking at the accelerated X drivers? Jun 13 02:44:01 * edt know they will take time to stabilize... Jun 13 02:44:01 lle2 - glad to hear that, although it appears to be only one guy (Tonkitti) who is porting Minimo to IT OS Jun 13 02:44:16 edt: yes, me and daniels Jun 13 02:44:17 there may be more in the background working on IT OS, I hope so Jun 13 02:44:54 lle2 sounds like you have your hands full (of interesting stuff) Jun 13 02:45:02 s/IT OS/porting Minimo to IT OS/ Jun 13 02:45:02 Milhouse2 meant: there may be more in the background working on porting Minimo to IT OS, I hope so Jun 13 02:45:33 its sleepy time here Jun 13 02:45:53 aye... i'm heading off too. nice chatting with you guys :) Jun 13 02:45:57 Milhouse2: dunno if they are working on minimo, have not followed that stuff too much, but the idea is to use mozilla codebase *soon* Jun 13 02:46:00 * edt needs to be awake at work tomorrow Jun 13 02:46:15 lle2 - that would be most excellent! :) Jun 13 02:46:26 lle2 thanks for the info Jun 13 02:46:29 breaking the Opera dependency has to be a good thing in the long term Jun 13 02:46:50 right, time to reboot my XP PC after the latest Patch Tuesday updates... sigh Jun 13 02:46:50 being compatible with 15% of desktop browsers is important Jun 13 02:47:13 free and increased compatability - what's not to like? Jun 13 02:47:53 free is not terribly accurate ;) only if you talk about the license... Jun 13 02:48:48 same with almost all of the interesting OSS components Jun 13 02:49:13 maybe only with things like busybox we can say that they are "free as in beer" Jun 13 02:49:21 true, Nokia will need to spend some time on porting and testing but once the code is more or less stable I bet it works out lower than the cost of Opera... and of course if Nokia (or the community) want to add something they can (more or less) at little cost Jun 13 02:49:48 I personally don't think the price is that big of a deal, it's more about functionality Jun 13 02:50:04 which may sound strange, but it's true Jun 13 02:50:48 the (in)ability to change functionality is a major problem Jun 13 02:51:13 as are the licencing terms which appear to be preventing a newer version of Opera being made available on 770s, for instance Jun 13 02:51:27 that sucks Jun 13 02:51:40 yeah, but there was no alternative at the time, given the constraints Jun 13 02:52:27 absolutely - i can understand 2 years ago that time to market was a concern, and minimo or any other alternative was probably not ready Jun 13 02:52:55 but since then nokia should/could have considered alternatives that allowed it to go totally OSS where the browser is concerned. Jun 13 02:53:04 we looked pretty hard at using anything else, anything at all, but it was just not possible to make it happen, not with our organization at that time Jun 13 02:53:44 hopefully the situation is improving rapidly :) Jun 13 02:55:06 things have improved a lot, but gotten maybe worse in other ways, as always when organizations grow **** ENDING LOGGING AT Wed Jun 13 02:59:57 2007