**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Wed Jun 27 02:59:56 2007 Jun 27 03:01:54 oh. Jun 27 03:02:05 right. Jun 27 03:06:14 any big reason to get the n800 over the n770? Jun 27 03:13:47 does the 770 have flash 7 or 9? Jun 27 03:34:07 rhys: The whole twice the RAM and twice the internal flash storage make a big difference. Jun 27 03:34:32 does the 770 have a camera? Jun 27 03:35:02 its only vga. im just trying to pin down the differences other than that Jun 27 03:35:08 both still have the 250mhz TI proc ? Jun 27 03:35:20 The N800 has a 350 MHz Jun 27 03:35:43 It also has a 3d accelerator chip which isn't as yet supported, but many people think it is going to be in the next patch Jun 27 03:35:52 so its more powerful. does battery life suffer? cause the n800 is 350 and the n770 is 200 Jun 27 03:40:26 kakos, do you know any other differences? Jun 27 03:40:59 The battery life doesn't seem to suffer as far as I've noticed. Jun 27 03:41:05 Let me think... Jun 27 03:41:26 It has two SD slots rather than the single RS-MMC of the 770, which is nice Jun 27 03:41:46 The speakers are better, but that isn't much of an issue since the sound quality isn't that great from either Jun 27 03:42:07 I think those are the major things Jun 27 03:42:54 How much can you get the 770 for? Jun 27 03:43:37 175$ on ebay Jun 27 03:43:40 150 used Jun 27 03:44:24 200 brand new in box Jun 27 03:44:34 Hmmmm Jun 27 03:45:19 It was definitely a worthy upgrade. If you can afford the N800, then I'd say that is your best bet Jun 27 03:45:32 If money is an issue, then the 770 is still a damned good little machine Jun 27 03:45:38 grrrrr. Jun 27 03:45:40 thats the problem Jun 27 03:46:17 im gonna get a bluetooth keyboard for sure to take notes in... i dont think i can type quickly enough in a lecture on the OSK Jun 27 03:46:27 Hmmm Jun 27 03:47:30 What do you plan on doing with it? Jun 27 03:47:39 is "damned good machine" enough? 400 vs 250? is it worth 150? my other things im looking at is a sony mylo. both of those id need to get a phone..which is 150$. sanyo 8400. or i could get the treo 700p. Jun 27 03:47:58 email, class notes, kismet, all my little toys. Jun 27 03:48:32 actually i think im gonna rule out the treo just because of wifi. they are decently cheap..but i love linux too much Jun 27 03:50:41 They also suck. Heh Jun 27 03:51:03 Here's my official suggestion. Get the N800 unless you absolutely cannot. Jun 27 03:51:04 im reading Jun 27 03:51:33 The 770 has a lot of software, but the community activity has dropped since the N800 came out. Jun 27 03:51:43 You can run IT 2007 on the 770, but I don't know how well it runs. I never tried it Jun 27 03:52:03 dropped? or shifted to the it2007? Jun 27 03:52:25 Shifted to IT2007 Jun 27 03:52:41 i was looking at the software, it was huge. including claws mail. i just found claws a month or so ago to replace obese thunderbird Jun 27 03:52:56 i run zenwalk linux. Jun 27 03:54:02 Yeah. There is an impressive selection of software out there for it Jun 27 03:54:17 I don't think I'd ever get along without my N800 (or my 770 before it) Jun 27 03:54:52 does stuff that worked in 2006 work for 2007? are both 2.6 kernel based? Jun 27 03:54:57 Either one is well worth the money you pay for it, but the N800 is probably a better buy overall Jun 27 03:55:08 rhys: Some stuff that worked in 2006 works in 2007 Jun 27 03:55:16 It's sort of hit and miss in that regard. Jun 27 03:55:26 right. new kernel, new libraries. i understand. Jun 27 03:55:27 They are both 2.6.x kernels, but the API changed some in the upgrade Jun 27 03:55:52 I've gotten a fair amount of software for IT2006 to run just fine on IT2007, but some also doesn't. Jun 27 03:56:00 Most of the software that doesn't has a 2007 version available though Jun 27 03:56:45 something interesting if you interested embedded. friend of mine got me a avr32 ngw100 reference design. they are awesome little Jun 27 03:56:49 oy Jun 27 03:57:00 toy*! Jun 27 04:01:22 thank you kakos. nice thing, i live almost for free, and thats just one weeks check. oh well. Jun 27 04:01:32 hopefully its worth it Jun 27 07:04:15 MoRpHeUz: I think it was the gst-gmyth that looked the includes in wrong place Jun 27 07:04:45 (or the gmyth's pkgconfig file has the wrong -I in Cflags) Jun 27 07:06:22 kulve: but it was not compiling ? Jun 27 07:07:07 gst-myth compiled after I removed the "gmyth" part of the -I path Jun 27 07:08:01 pkgconfig file add prefix/include/gmyth to include dirs and gst-gmyth uses "#include ", so there's one "gmyth" dir too much Jun 27 07:09:10 with /usr/ prefix everything works because /usr/include is automatically added as include dir Jun 27 07:09:54 kulve: I got the point.... Jun 27 07:10:06 kulve: thanks for that...I'll fix that... =) Jun 27 07:15:40 let me know when it's fixed Jun 27 07:17:33 I quickly tried streaming, but I didn't get it running Jun 27 07:18:16 kulve: ok...I need to send you a "good" url...it's easy, but you need to know the parameters.. Jun 27 07:18:31 kulve: I'm just finishing some work and then I can do this stuff =) Jun 27 07:19:40 thx. I'll test it again in the evening. I'm probably going to write a very short Debian Etch specific howto, if I get it working ;) Jun 27 07:21:46 kulve: great! thanks again! =) Jun 27 07:46:31 Am I right in thinking that I need to email Nokia/Maemo site any pages that I'd like to add to the wiki before I can add them? Jun 27 07:46:44 or so they can add them perhaps Jun 27 07:48:00 * lardman is looking here: https://maemo.org/legal/contribution_guidelines Jun 27 07:55:04 lol. faq link in that page is 404 Jun 27 08:22:47 yo Jun 27 08:27:27 Anyone have any luck pairing an MDA (t-mobile) phone with the N800? Jun 27 08:46:26 lardman: maybe // but if you think you're doing something useful i'd ignore it and assume they'll respect that Jun 27 08:48:04 Don't worry, the wiki is free access isn't it Jun 27 08:48:14 I'd just read the link rather than tried adding stuff Jun 27 08:48:32 I hate wiki editing, esp when there's no preview Jun 27 08:48:46 now i am curious to see what you are working on Jun 27 08:48:48 url? Jun 27 08:48:53 https://maemo.org/community/wiki/edit/spprogramming.html Jun 27 08:49:02 I screwed up the name somehow Jun 27 08:49:12 should have been dspprogramming Jun 27 08:51:12 wow, cool stuff Jun 27 08:51:37 not especially, but I thought I'd document it, mainly as I want to get something added to the Wishlist Jun 27 08:52:46 what have you done with DSP? Jun 27 08:53:10 There's not a lot to do with it, data can be sent to and from, but it's not possible to get audio output atm Jun 27 08:54:43 so for e.g. someone trying to add an ogg dsp sink would need a recompiled kernel? Jun 27 08:55:28 That is supposition, but the best I can work out at the moment, unless Nokia give us a header file of the EAP_ functions Jun 27 08:55:39 recompiled DSP kernel that is of course Jun 27 08:56:01 yes Jun 27 08:56:34 when i had a NeXT someone wrote a fractal browser using the dsp Jun 27 08:57:20 It is quite possible to write a mini-driver, as there's documentation galore, it's just whether it could be introduced without the kernel recompile. Jun 27 08:57:38 I've not looked at whether the kernel could be recompiled easily, sounds like another steep learning curve Jun 27 08:57:41 have you asked for help on the mailing list? Jun 27 08:58:11 Yes, long while back, thought I'd add it as a bug, etc. and see whether I could get Nokia to put the header file bit in the wish list Jun 27 08:58:14 maybe they are NDA'd by TI Jun 27 08:58:19 aha Jun 27 08:58:58 stupid NDAs from hell Jun 27 08:59:32 I'm sure some of it is under NDA, just seems a shame as there is some demand for extra software codecs and this would be something for people to work on Jun 27 09:00:15 * sxpert-work wonders what the use for those NDAs is Jun 27 09:00:37 fluendo were subcontracted the DSP work Jun 27 09:00:55 that I know. Jun 27 09:01:01 perhaps they retain the rights Jun 27 09:01:15 the question is "what does TI gets from imposing NDAs on chips specs" Jun 27 09:01:39 That's not TI though, they seem to publicise almost everything Jun 27 09:01:42 sounds totally counterproductive to their business which is (obviously) selling chips Jun 27 09:01:49 except the IVA of course Jun 27 09:02:08 IVA ? Jun 27 09:02:18 Imaging Video Accelerator Jun 27 09:02:34 why would they have an NDA on that ? Jun 27 09:02:42 didn't they design that too ? Jun 27 09:02:44 dunno, no info about though Jun 27 09:02:52 (it sounds so ridiculous) Jun 27 09:02:58 ahh, there we go Jun 27 09:02:58 woot Jun 27 09:03:06 probably to make it harder to competitors. Jun 27 09:04:21 roope: not by much, I'm afraid Jun 27 09:05:35 Anyway, the issue here is probably more of who wrote the code. It's quite possible to write a new driver (& kernel), though a fair bit of effort - far easier with a header file I hope Jun 27 09:10:46 Poor david hautbois is getting lots of email notifications from me atm Jun 27 09:11:26 Right, I'm banging my head against a wall here, how do I stop the wiki from stealing my line-breaks? Jun 27 09:12:08 Morning, all Jun 27 09:12:16 morning Jun 27 09:13:38 ~lart wikis Jun 27 09:13:39 * infobot lowers wikis's priority Jun 27 09:17:49 good morning Jun 27 09:33:59 moin Jun 27 09:38:08 I'm getting a weird error when setting up my google talk account on the n800. It's coming up with "Server's SSL certificate has expired". Jun 27 09:41:05 your date is wrong on the device Jun 27 09:41:26 ? Jun 27 09:42:29 hello, i'm building a library i would like to split in 2 parts: 1 part == core stuff, 2 part == gtk only stuff. how can i tell in my makefile.am that libfoo-gtk depends on libfoo, both being shared libraries (or libtool libraries) Jun 27 09:43:46 tigert, eh, good point :) Jun 27 09:43:55 bilboed: caught me too :) Jun 27 09:44:08 a lot of websites bork wiht the same issue if your date is in the future or way in the past Jun 27 09:52:48 indeed. I don't think we're the 7th of January 1970 Jun 27 09:52:59 even though I'm listening to some funk :) Jun 27 09:57:28 yep Jun 27 09:57:39 funk has no concept of age Jun 27 09:58:12 ah, that's why there is a shop called funky lady Jun 27 10:12:31 Aloha! Jun 27 10:17:15 funk is from beyond time and space Jun 27 10:17:48 there's living proof of that too.. bootsy Jun 27 10:18:26 yep, free your mind... Jun 27 10:18:45 Is there a way to have the n800 make sound when there's incoming messages ? and not just for calls Jun 27 10:19:27 sorry... it does produce some sound Jun 27 10:19:28 my bad Jun 27 10:28:50 sweet. I just got dailymotion to work on uktube. Jun 27 11:14:03 Hey, I'm having trouble playing dailymotion based flash video on mplayer on the device. It works on my desktop with mplayer. Any ideas what might be wrong? Jun 27 11:14:16 clip here: http://www.helsinki.fi/~konttori/MediaConverter/dailymotiontest.flv Jun 27 11:38:24 refresh applicatin list always gives me a "unable to refresh package list" error Jun 27 11:38:26 what could be the reason ? Jun 27 11:41:11 menu -> tools -> log? Jun 27 11:44:42 uh never noticed it Jun 27 11:45:34 lst entry is failed to fetch http://repository.maemo.org/extras/dist/bora/free/binary-armel/Packages.gz Jun 27 11:47:16 yeah the ui doesn't exactly help you resolve catalog issues, you get a generic error in one place, look for the problem in another place and resolve it in a third place, none of which point to each other Jun 27 11:47:44 yeah well, i give up Jun 27 11:47:48 thx for the help anyway :) Jun 27 11:48:15 guardian:do you have the old minimo .br repo? Jun 27 11:48:28 * sp3000 wonders if the catalog editor dialog could have some indications for catalogs that are acting dead Jun 27 11:49:05 minimo.br repo, doesn't ring a bell Jun 27 11:49:51 guardian: think I might have gotten one of those because of a duplicate catalog entry (that was logged in those words more or less too) Jun 27 11:50:24 i just fail at finding a real use for this cool device :) Jun 27 11:50:43 i went to downloads.maemo.org, installed bunch of stuff then well ok it's cool but not really useful Jun 27 11:50:43 (one for extras bora free non-free and another for extras bora free only as it happens) Jun 27 11:51:19 from a coding perspective, it's interesting though Jun 27 11:53:15 * sp3000 rocks the read stuff on the bus and how the hell do i get home from here at this hour cases mostly Jun 27 11:54:16 with a dash of irc and website edits from inconvenient positions Jun 27 11:57:00 and a pinch of notes, music and whatnot Jun 27 11:59:31 irc on the virtual keyboard Jun 27 11:59:31 ouch :) Jun 27 12:00:32 yeah Jun 27 12:00:51 guardian: if travelling a bit unplanned (i.e. not having booked hotels, etc), it's very convenient to have ubiquous web-access. Jun 27 12:00:53 * sp3000 doesn't much do essays on irc Jun 27 12:01:22 guardian: I also found maemo mapper with for example google maps backend handy, when travelling to unknown towns. Jun 27 12:01:43 also makes sense Jun 27 12:01:56 my cellphone options don't allow me to do much Jun 27 12:02:06 so in the end i nearly never pair my tablet with it Jun 27 12:02:29 And I've used it at pub evening at my local LUG. It happens quite often that you just need to look up some facts. Jun 27 12:02:52 It's a bit like a leatherman, I'd say. It's something you learn to appreciate to have handy when you need it ;) Jun 27 12:03:43 cellphone option without data? *boggle* Jun 27 12:04:09 It's a geek toy Jun 27 12:04:17 Something you drop $400 on and play with for a few days Jun 27 12:04:21 that's one of the real important things, I'd say ;) Way more important than any camera or mp3 playing capabilities. Jun 27 12:04:22 Then it goes in the closet with the rest of the toys Jun 27 12:04:22 ;) Jun 27 12:04:44 keey it in the bathroom Jun 27 12:04:50 poop-t3rm Jun 27 12:05:01 perfect little rss reader while you're on the pot :P Jun 27 12:05:15 What is? Jun 27 12:05:29 The N800's second worse feature after email has to be the RSS reader ;-) Jun 27 12:05:55 Jaffa: really? I think the RSS reader is it's best feature Jun 27 12:06:33 despite the horrible bugs and uselessness? Jun 27 12:06:49 I haven't really run into any trouble with it yet, but I just got my n800 today Jun 27 12:06:57 I'm subscribed to like 10 feeds Jun 27 12:07:00 seems to work dandy Jun 27 12:07:22 it crashes on certain feeds, and the scrolling for long pages is completely broken Jun 27 12:07:43 I think it's designed for feeds that jsut have a title and a link Jun 27 12:07:54 planet-style feeds with content choke it Jun 27 12:08:06 well that sucks Jun 27 12:08:13 is the rss reader open source? Jun 27 12:08:14 maybe we'll see a new reader soon Jun 27 12:08:14 which is a shame because that's what you want it for... offline reading Jun 27 12:09:47 pupnik: yes Jun 27 12:09:50 http://maemo.org/downloads/product/streamtuner/ is pretty badass Jun 27 12:11:10 cy303: apart from occasionally forgetting all your feeds (*may* now be fixed), it removes unread entries on the automatic update. Jun 27 12:11:39 pupnik: someone's been talking on ITT of fixing it. Jun 27 12:12:04 https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=953 is the biggest annoyance of the RSS reader which is why I don't use it anymore. Jun 27 12:12:45 hmm Jun 27 12:12:50 does google reader work in the browser? Jun 27 12:13:00 the mobile version, yes Jun 27 12:13:07 the ajaxy version has sizing issues Jun 27 12:13:13 well fuck it then Jun 27 12:13:19 use google reader mobile version i guess :P Jun 27 12:13:26 I do :) Jun 27 12:13:28 hehe Jun 27 12:13:46 isn't there also some other mozilla based browser that's been ported over that supports all the 0day ajaxy stuffs? Jun 27 12:14:34 http://gwak.dyndns.org/n800/Gui.html Jun 27 12:14:48 this is a ajax rss reader i wrote a few weeks ago Jun 27 12:14:54 noice Jun 27 12:15:03 that's a good point Jun 27 12:15:07 can always just write your own web apps Jun 27 12:15:11 that's nice gawk, I digit Jun 27 12:15:18 the source is here Jun 27 12:15:21 http://gwak.dyndns.org/n800/n800-reader-bin.tar Jun 27 12:15:27 grr Jun 27 12:15:28 http://gwak.dyndns.org/n800/n800-reader.tar Jun 27 12:15:35 what's it written in? Jun 27 12:15:44 snagging it, thanks Jun 27 12:15:44 google web tool kit Jun 27 12:15:44 :) Jun 27 12:15:53 gwak: nice! Jun 27 12:15:53 and the google ajax api Jun 27 12:16:14 gwak: yeah we used that for clickcaster.com .. for an rss reader a long time ago Jun 27 12:16:17 heh, a megabyte :D Jun 27 12:16:19 I think it's still up on old.clickcaster.com somewhere Jun 27 12:16:37 cy303: google for "minimo" for the Mozilla browser Jun 27 12:16:39 just load it on your /media/mmc1 and access it from localhost Jun 27 12:16:47 gwak: nice man Jun 27 12:16:51 any dependencies ? Jun 27 12:17:02 Jaffa: do you recommend minimo? Jun 27 12:17:04 to build it yea, Jun 27 12:17:07 to run it no Jun 27 12:17:14 coo Jun 27 12:17:27 the google gwt stuff is pretty slick Jun 27 12:17:34 hell yeah Jun 27 12:18:26 http://www.internettablettalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6588&highlight=gwt Jun 27 12:18:36 is the build howto Jun 27 12:21:46 nice Jun 27 12:22:01 I just wish I could flip it to portrait.. kinda lame that's not a feature Jun 27 12:24:18 definitely nice paired with the cellphone Jun 27 12:25:44 Could use a SIP client Jun 27 12:25:48 or an IAX2 client Jun 27 12:53:11 http://www.buy.com/prod/nokia-770-internet-tablet-internet-tablet-2006-software-edition/q/loc/101/204081472.html Jun 27 12:53:23 buy.com has em for $139.99 Jun 27 12:56:27 dirt cheap, only if its platform would be advancing same speed as maemo.. Jun 27 13:12:56 Any debian gurus here? Jun 27 13:13:46 lardman: Uhm - better to just ask the question? Probably very many know quite a lot about Debian systems, here. Jun 27 13:15:05 Trying to build Octave 2.9.12 from the debian source & diff using dpkg-buildpackage, it fails to recognise f77/g77 as being GNU; running configure it finds it fine. Jun 27 13:15:53 I can't see that it's a variable problem in configure, perhaps one of the flags passed by debian/rules interferes. Painful though. Jun 27 13:17:01 Is there a way to do a usual configure & make, then package up the result using some script that looks at the Makefile? Would make my life much easier (as in general debian recipes need to be altered) Jun 27 13:17:24 well...there is a config.log or such. Jun 27 13:17:38 And you can look a the makefile and the variables etc. Jun 27 13:18:25 I know about debugging configure problems, but this configure file is a beast! I was just venting and wondering if there's not an easier way Jun 27 13:18:35 thanks though Jun 27 13:18:57 I'd look at the debian/rules file. Jun 27 13:19:18 The arguments to configure is in that file. Jun 27 13:19:34 Yes, I've had to change them Jun 27 13:20:16 That was why it suddenly dawned on me that perhaps there's some interaction with either a flag or an env var and therefore a problem in the configure script. I'll take a look this evening Jun 27 13:20:39 well, hard to say without looking at it, really. Jun 27 13:21:48 * lardman must make a concerted effort to understand the debian build process rather than just trying to scrape by Jun 27 13:23:17 One thing I don't understand is why I need to download the source & a diff & a dsc file, then have to manually apply the patch. Must be missing a step somewhere... Jun 27 13:24:45 ahh, dpkg-source Jun 27 13:36:24 http://stephesblog.blogs.com/my_weblog/2007/06/ari-jaaksi-on-n.html Jun 27 13:39:14 right Jun 27 13:44:54 great link gwak! Jun 27 13:44:57 "Open source simplifies and accelerates software licensing, and reduces technology and quality risks. Instead of negotiation for months, the technical work can start immediately." Jun 27 13:48:05 pupnik:yea i hope Ari, can evangelize more people at Nokia. (my source was reddit.com) Jun 27 13:49:26 i love my 770 so much. just dropped it on concrete twice last week - no problems Jun 27 13:50:11 now with ssvb's awesome mplayer the vids play back beautifully Jun 27 13:50:21 i imagine that integrated cover comes in handy then ;-] Jun 27 13:50:35 and soon i expect we'll have DrPocketSnes running at full speed with sound Jun 27 13:50:36 yeah! Jun 27 13:50:58 mhm... I dropped my Palm m500 a few times, and the touchscreen broke down after the last drop Jun 27 13:51:31 hi mgedmin! :) yeah i can't advocate the dropping thing. Jun 27 13:51:54 i haven't persuaded any of my programmer friends to buy a 770 yet. :( Jun 27 13:52:15 gonna get on the gp2x boards and advertise Jun 27 13:52:40 why a 770 rather than a n800? Jun 27 13:52:49 $130 Jun 27 13:52:51 hello, i'm building a library i would like to split in 2 parts: part 1 == core stuff, part 2 == gtk only stuff. how can i tell in my makefile.am that libfoo-gtk depends on libfoo, both being shared libraries (or libtool libraries) Jun 27 14:17:41 http://www.apple.com/iphone/usingiphone/keyboard_small.html from engadget Jun 27 14:18:00 hope n800 can be hacked to have some of the features Jun 27 14:19:32 i don't have quicktime - what's good about that? Jun 27 14:19:53 that sure would be nice Jun 27 14:20:10 gwak: one of the *MAIN* thing that I find the N800 lacks is good data entry Jun 27 14:20:35 what's the alternative to an onscreen keyboard? Jun 27 14:20:37 I suppose I should try using the onscreen for thumb typing.. but just got my n800 today and was all being careful about smudging and crap :P Jun 27 14:20:38 pupnik: the auto spell checker / the cursor placmnt seems better Jun 27 14:20:40 no point really.. heh Jun 27 14:21:31 nothing that could not be added the hildon IM methods Jun 27 14:21:52 hildon IM methods? Jun 27 14:22:24 the virtual keybaords Jun 27 14:22:46 gwak: I'm only using the built in virtual keyboard.. is there something better? Jun 27 14:22:47 cool it enlarges the keys that it thinks your going to type! Jun 27 14:22:57 yeah that rocks Jun 27 14:22:59 the bad thing about the auto-completion on the virtual keyboard... is that you have to put your hand on the proposition Jun 27 14:23:02 that really sucks Jun 27 14:23:51 it would be better to have a button on the side of the virtual keyboard to do that Jun 27 14:24:29 <`0660> you can also click the d-pad to right Jun 27 14:25:11 ooh Jun 27 14:25:17 let me see if that it easy to do Jun 27 14:25:34 gwak: so there are alternatives to the n800 built in virtual keyboard? Jun 27 14:25:51 `0660, indeed. Shame it doesn't add the space along with it Jun 27 14:26:05 cy-, buying a bluetooth keyboard :) Jun 27 14:26:06 cy: im not sure, i thought about looking into it - i would love a different keyboard for GAIM for instance Jun 27 14:27:09 There's an interesting input method that draws the most likely upcoming letters in boxes around the input area Jun 27 14:27:35 pupnik: is that for the n800? Jun 27 14:27:40 no Jun 27 14:27:52 i don't have the name in memory sorry Jun 27 14:29:23 yeah GAIM sucks.. typing with a stylus or whatever heh Jun 27 14:29:35 I guess I should play around with the enlarged keyboard mode and thumb typing Jun 27 14:29:37 i got a bluetooth keyboard right away Jun 27 14:29:46 ok, once configured with light sensitivity and knowing the completion trick.... thumb mode is really usable Jun 27 14:30:24 cy: yea esp if your using the thumb board - mainly because you can not see what new IM's have come while your typing Jun 27 14:30:39 yeah weak Jun 27 14:30:42 and the gaim UI is multiline Jun 27 14:32:14 man, if there's an IAX2 or SIP client for the N800 that would rock sox Jun 27 14:32:26 Just connect to my asterisk server with it.. that'd be pimp. Jun 27 14:32:33 <`0660> i think someone was experimenting making the thumb keyboard transparent Jun 27 14:32:46 minisip looks like Jun 27 14:32:46 hmmm Jun 27 14:32:54 work in progress Jun 27 14:32:57 dopestatus Jun 27 14:35:27 gwak: have you used the n800's 'web cam' for 'video conferencing' yet? Jun 27 14:36:13 cy-: nope i do use Gizamo for pc->telephone Jun 27 14:36:27 does that work fairly well? Jun 27 14:36:36 no choppyness/crappy audio/etc Jun 27 14:36:36 ? Jun 27 14:36:56 cy-:ok, it has a bit more of a lag then Skype - but not to bad Jun 27 14:37:03 hrm Jun 27 14:37:09 coo Jun 27 14:37:11 cy-: you can use gizmo to connect to any sip server Jun 27 14:37:44 gwak: that's write. gizmo works well. a bit more of lag than Skype but still works =) Jun 27 14:37:52 MoRpHeUz: that's badass. I've heard rumors about that, but haven't tried it out. Jun 27 14:37:55 and soon we'll have skype for the device also.. Jun 27 14:38:24 people are saying friday for the new firmware! Jun 27 14:38:56 MoRpHeUz: I definitely just want a SIP/IAX2 client. So Gizmo would be ideal if I can use it to connect to my asterisk server, which sounds like I can. Jun 27 14:39:26 cy-: yeah... Jun 27 14:39:33 MoRpHeUz: However, I don't see Gizmo client for n800 anywhere.. not in maemo software.. Jun 27 14:39:40 just need to install http://swik.net/gizmo ? Jun 27 14:40:28 cy-: http://www.gizmoproject.com/learnmore-nokia800.html Jun 27 14:40:38 noice Jun 27 14:45:38 Does maemo battery tool get it's info via dbus or file? Jun 27 14:46:23 dbus to the applet Jun 27 14:46:57 and it's not available via file? Jun 27 14:47:54 it can be read from the chip directly, just let me look for the code Jun 27 14:48:06 ok Jun 27 14:48:08 though the output is processed not raw Jun 27 14:49:17 It ought to be visible though /proc, but i don't think it is Jun 27 14:49:29 http://www.mail-archive.com/maemo-users@maemo.org/msg01755.html Jun 27 14:49:53 http://www.arava.co.il/matan/770/retu-adc.c Jun 27 14:50:12 nice! Jun 27 14:50:14 thanks :) Jun 27 14:50:21 np Jun 27 14:51:00 grab the header file too: http://www.arava.co.il/matan/770/user_retu_tahvo.h Jun 27 15:56:54 Jun 27 17:06:54 * ttuttle can't wait until his N770 arrives! Jun 27 17:09:44 haha Jun 27 17:10:01 see, we could've gone to TX to get them, only now we have no idea where they are Jun 27 17:10:24 ericz: /me snaps fingers. "Darn!" Jun 27 17:10:30 heh Jun 27 17:11:45 <||cw> yeah but who really wants to go to texas in the summer Jun 27 17:11:59 yikes, yeah Jun 27 17:12:17 ||cw: Exactly. I mean, jeez, it was in the 90's here (Massachusetts) yesterday... it's gotta be bad in Texas. Jun 27 17:12:38 it's 95 here :/ [virginia] Jun 27 17:13:12 ericz: Ugh. I hope you have airconditioning. Jun 27 17:13:19 of course! Jun 27 17:13:24 <||cw> we're having a wonderfull cool spell, 86 Jun 27 17:13:35 our power bill's going to be nuts, it's like 65 in the house Jun 27 17:13:40 <||cw> scattered thunderstorms though Jun 27 17:14:21 ||cw: Thunderstorms are fun. Jun 27 17:14:30 ||cw: (Well they're fun, except if you have DSL.) Jun 27 17:14:31 <||cw> I've been in texas when it was 116, you can't even stand to be in the pool for more than an hour or so Jun 27 17:14:53 ||cw: Oh man, that sucks. I would just dig a huge hole and crawl into it, and then once I cooled off a little dig a bigger hole back to a cooler state. Jun 27 17:16:00 <||cw> don't need to dig a hole, just just in a crack in the ground Jun 27 17:17:50 any maemo folk at OLS this week? Jun 27 17:18:14 some kernel people most likely Jun 27 17:18:40 Everyone already seen the iphone keyboard technology video? http://www.apple.com/iphone/usingiphone/keyboard_medium.html Jun 27 17:18:49 konttori: Wanna copy it, or hate it Jun 27 17:19:11 konttori: (that was supposed to be a question, but I hit enter instead :-\) Jun 27 17:19:31 I love the magnifying glass. It's a great idea Jun 27 17:20:44 also, the text correction is a very nice idea Jun 27 17:20:52 although I'm not sure if it really works Jun 27 17:21:35 but the greatest point is the dynamic target area. I truly love it. It could be done even better, but that seems like a really good idea. Jun 27 17:23:17 Oh, by the way, I just released uktube 0.4. Jun 27 17:23:22 https://garage.maemo.org/frs/download.php/1676/UKMP-1.3-uktube0.4.deb Jun 27 17:24:00 It's a Very sweet update. It supports now also dailymotion pages. There's a new button for easier and faster pasting of the url as well as a new drop down for playing already downloaded clips from the mmc. Jun 27 17:24:44 TimRikerOLS: k-s (gustavo barbieri) is there Jun 27 17:25:00 not maemo Jun 27 17:25:35 Where to get jed or some other text editor than vi on N800 Jun 27 17:26:05 Enok: maybe leafpad Jun 27 17:26:40 http://downloads.maemo.org/product/leafpad Jun 27 17:26:40 whill this work on the 770? http://www.engadget.com/2007/06/27/sandisk-intros-6-8gb-microsdhc-cards-4gb-m2-card/ Jun 27 17:26:47 Butbut it has GUI Jun 27 17:26:58 Need something to use trough ssh Jun 27 17:27:07 Enok: ok Jun 27 17:27:41 keesj: with the proper adapter and the SDHC patched kernel, it should work Jun 27 17:28:26 so the 770 was not microSDHC. very confusing that SD stuff :p Jun 27 17:28:48 keesj: there is only sd and sdhc Jun 27 17:28:58 where hc stands for high capacity Jun 27 17:29:01 <||cw> 770 is onr rs-mmc Jun 27 17:29:03 but the casings differ Jun 27 17:29:12 <||cw> only* Jun 27 17:29:16 sd are up to 2gb Jun 27 17:29:17 <||cw> no sd at all Jun 27 17:29:33 and sdhc >= 4gb Jun 27 17:30:03 I do have a 4 gig sdhc card in my n800, I just wondered if it would work on the 770 with this smaller card Jun 27 17:30:09 Enok: in this case you don't need more than vi Jun 27 17:30:11 :) Jun 27 17:30:39 keesj: oh, you were talking about 770 Jun 27 17:30:45 <||cw> Enok: many nano is available. vi works for me though, as rare as I need to use it Jun 27 17:31:02 keesj: sorry. only mmcs for 770, as ||cw said Jun 27 17:32:01 vi feels quite odd after got used to jed/emacs, need to learn yet another set of keyboard commands Jun 27 17:32:17 EviL Jun 27 17:32:30 <||cw> Enok: what are you using a command line editor so much for? Jun 27 17:32:36 did others recieve " Additional questions about your Nokia N800 purchase " I am not sure it's authentic :p Jun 27 17:33:01 <||cw> keesj: check the smtp headers, see where it came from Jun 27 17:34:20 Just though it'll come in handy when doing some programming/tweaking Jun 27 17:34:37 Of course I can do it all on pc and transfer later Jun 27 17:35:04 does anybody program for maemo in something other than vi? :) Jun 27 17:35:07 crescomhosting.fi ! Jun 27 17:37:40 hello i'm on the 770 now :) Jun 27 17:38:32 congrats, Brenduh Jun 27 17:38:42 ty Jun 27 17:38:46 welcome to the family Jun 27 17:38:55 "We're a happy family" - The Residents Jun 27 17:39:10 ths is great Jun 27 17:39:31 irc screenis tiny Jun 27 17:40:07 you can change font size Jun 27 17:41:03 do u know where i can find yahoo and msn messengers? i can'r fnd the at the maemo site Jun 27 17:41:29 i think 'gaim' can do that, but it has a new name i can't remember Jun 27 17:41:33 pidgin! Jun 27 17:41:46 Are there any interesting alternative input methods for the N770? Jun 27 17:42:03 thats right, ty Jun 27 17:44:02 going to go play, ty! Jun 27 17:44:25 ok Jun 27 17:50:09 hello! Jun 27 17:51:16 do you know if there is crontab or similar available for the n800? Jun 27 17:52:08 woah, it just hit 100 fahrenheit :( Jun 27 17:52:12 i tried to search for pointers from the forums but had no luck Jun 27 17:52:27 12.8 Celcius here Jun 27 17:52:54 100F - 37 celsius Jun 27 17:52:55 ericz: Nice. Jun 27 17:53:18 ericz: Well, it's 93F at NOAA here. Jun 27 17:53:29 12.8 celsius = 55F, i wish it was 55 here Jun 27 17:53:31 ericz: And 94F where I'm working. Jun 27 17:54:12 my hard drive's 100.4 F, is that high? Jun 27 17:54:34 ericz: Nah, my old one tended to hover between 40 and 60C, which is higher. Jun 27 17:54:41 woah, haha Jun 27 17:55:59 mine's never gone over 40C Jun 27 17:58:17 zile looks like fine editor Jun 27 18:06:36 can someone post what the /etc/resolv.conf has to look like? Jun 27 18:06:59 can someone post what the /etc/resolv.conf has to look like? Jun 27 18:08:48 um...that will really depend on your isp Jun 27 18:09:15 should have some things like this Jun 27 18:09:49 nameserver 123.45.67.89 Jun 27 18:09:59 ok seems there's the dbus/alarmd api that could be used for scheduling tasks instead of cron Jun 27 18:10:13 search isn't required in resolv.conf, is it? Jun 27 18:11:30 are there applications using dbus/alarm that could be used to schedule shell tasks? Jun 27 18:11:31 can someone help me? I'm trying to install pidgin. I got it to show up as an installable item, but when I try to install it it says parts are missing Jun 27 18:14:05 ogg.vorbis Jun 27 18:14:16 maemo does? Jun 27 18:14:23 support Jun 27 18:14:25 ? Jun 27 18:15:07 yes get the tremor libs Jun 27 18:15:38 pupnik.de/libvorbisidec1_1.2.0-1_armel.deb Jun 27 18:15:42 or from somewhere else Jun 27 18:16:19 i did Jun 27 18:16:24 i installed this.. Jun 27 18:16:39 now i'm trying to get this cool little python player to run... Jun 27 18:17:02 and it complains about ogg.vorbis Jun 27 18:17:14 now when i comment out the ogg.vorbis it runs... Jun 27 18:17:23 but doesn't play the test file.. Jun 27 18:17:56 Traceback (most recent call last): Jun 27 18:17:56 File "timplayer.py", line 19, in Jun 27 18:17:56 import ogg.vorbis Jun 27 18:17:56 ImportError: No module named ogg.vorbis Jun 27 18:17:58 i have no idea how python can interface with c libraries Jun 27 18:18:08 oh, then you need the ogg.vorbis module Jun 27 18:18:18 guess i have to wait on konttori Jun 27 18:18:46 ok whats the difference between the module and the stuff avail for maemo Jun 27 18:19:12 I recently flashed my 770 with SU-18_2006SE_3.2006.49-2_PR_F5_MR0_ARM.bin, but now I can't find an openssh deb package that will work. openssh_4.2p1-1_arm.deb and the 3.8 one both complain of being incompatible with the current software. Any hints? Jun 27 18:19:48 c libraries are generally not useable by... say... lisp, or BASIC, or python, AFAIK Jun 27 18:20:26 nilsatchara: instalilng from the application manager/ Jun 27 18:20:27 ? Jun 27 18:20:58 unique311: google python+"ogg.vorbis" Jun 27 18:21:31 i think there's a tool that can create a wrapper for python -> c libraries .. Jun 27 18:21:36 when trying to install gaim, I'm getting an error that packages are missing and it mentions: hildon-libs0>=0.14.11-1 Jun 27 18:21:56 unique311, http://ekyo.nerim.net/software/pyogg/index.html Jun 27 18:23:08 is there any way to run java applets on the n800? Jun 27 18:23:32 thanks Jun 27 18:24:27 Sulis: doesn't the resolv.conf need to change when I switch AP? Jun 27 18:24:36 Has anyone thought about writing a "context-aware" terminal, where once you select a command, it knows the possible arguments and allows you to type them easily? Jun 27 18:25:30 edistar: well, strictly speaking it doesn't need to, but i would expect it to if the AP is connected with a different ISP Jun 27 18:25:32 Oh, and... is there any progress on multimedia in hacker 2007 for the N770? Will it ever have sound? Jun 27 18:26:14 pupnik: The maemo.org openssh.install script registers with the application manager correctly but doesn't put an entry in for openssh (or ssh, for that matter). Going straight to the website (ftp.infradead.org/pub/maemo/openssh_4.2p1-1_arm.deb) is where I get the incompatibility error. Jun 27 18:26:56 i am guessing that the package maintainer needs to be informed of this Jun 27 18:27:15 to work around, try downloading the .deb and using dpkg -i openssh_4.2p1-1_arm.deb Jun 27 18:27:41 thanks, I'll try that Jun 27 18:28:36 ok, I've found it. If I go here: https://garage.maemo.org/frs/?group_id=278&release_id=678 what do I do? Download each file one by one? Then which one do I run? Jun 27 18:30:30 hah, lots of files Jun 27 18:30:34 start with pidgin_2.0.0-1nix2_armel.deb Jun 27 18:30:40 then add emotes, sounds if you want Jun 27 18:30:49 and the protocol (yahoo, etc) you want Jun 27 18:31:00 when I click that and click install (the first one) I keep getting the message unable to install some packages are missing Jun 27 18:31:17 check the log for details Jun 27 18:31:34 I tried, I can't find anything :/ ... sorry I'm a newbie Jun 27 18:32:18 ok you're using the application installer program? or installing from a command-line Jun 27 18:32:39 I'm clicking download then open Jun 27 18:32:56 ok then that opens the 'application manager' or whatever it's called :) Jun 27 18:32:59 I've got my maemo 2.2 dev environment all set up, but in the SDK emulator sort of thing, the submenus (like tools and extras) don't work (they pop up for a few microseconds, then close). Has anyone heard of this issue before and know of a solution? Jun 27 18:33:10 somewhere there is a 'view log' button, but i don't have it in front of me right now Jun 27 18:33:39 got it Jun 27 18:34:16 i haven't seen that KaylaKaze ... but you can also run programs from the command line in the SDK, and they will start up -- you just won't have the window manager Jun 27 18:34:36 Brenduh: it should tell you the name of the missing package near the bottom Jun 27 18:35:02 couldn't stat sour package list http:/idefix.go-nix.ca packages (/var/lib/apt/usr/bin/dpkg-deb -f /var/tmp/pidgin_2.0.0-lnix2_armel.deb Jun 27 18:35:07 then four failed messages Jun 27 18:35:16 sour = source Jun 27 18:35:19 do I run commandline stuff just by typing it in to scratchbox while the SDK is running? Jun 27 18:35:49 KaylaKaze: yeah. of course Xephyr has to be running, and your display environment variable set correctly Jun 27 18:35:56 yeah Jun 27 18:36:29 anybody have an idea for Brenduh? I don't understand the error message Jun 27 18:36:30 says no such file or directory Jun 27 18:38:43 Is there any particular benefit to me in running hacker edition of IT2007 on my N770 instead of the included IT2006? Jun 27 18:39:36 i'm testing it right now. you can see discussion on hacker edition on the internettablettalk.com forums, ttuttle Jun 27 18:40:25 in some ways it feels a bit slicker. but i've encountered a lot more headaches with lack of software that works with this version Jun 27 18:40:31 woot still hasn't sent out the units yet (at least not mine) :-( I was hoping to get it before my D&D game sunday so I could use it as my character sheet Jun 27 18:40:49 mine i'm using right now is f rom woot Jun 27 18:40:58 i never got a message it was sent out Jun 27 18:41:19 Well, I just checked my order page and it wasn't on "shipped" yet Jun 27 18:41:23 I live in arkansas (woot is in texas) so I get it pretty quick Jun 27 18:41:27 mine isn't either Jun 27 18:41:31 ah, ok Jun 27 18:41:39 maybe I'll get mine today or tomorrow then Jun 27 18:42:25 man, if I could just get this instant messenger to work... that is why I got it Jun 27 18:43:56 Has anyone used the latest 770 build of Xournal and knows if it's still really slow and barely usable like some comments I've read said about it? I'm planning a project of similar nature and it'd be much easier to just build on the Xournal sourcecode than make it all from scratch if Xournal is pretty decent. Jun 27 18:46:26 what is xournal? Jun 27 18:46:40 something that don't seem to want to work... Jun 27 18:46:57 what i think i'm looking for in maemo.. Jun 27 18:47:06 well note to OS2007 Hacker Ed. owners - do not upgrade to the bora mplayer - it no workee on the 770 Jun 27 18:47:11 a descent sketch app Jun 27 18:47:29 a sketch app that goes from a higher level to a lower one? Jun 27 18:47:32 timplayer is working now.. Jun 27 18:47:34 :P Jun 27 18:47:43 my god, all that petty fighting on the ITT forums is hard to bear Jun 27 18:47:49 its an python ogg vorbis player.. Jun 27 18:49:09 yes! I got it to work Jun 27 18:49:19 I had to change bora to mistral ... didn't notice that Jun 27 18:49:49 yeah Brenduh bora is 2007, mistral is what you want on the 770 Jun 27 18:49:55 os2006 Jun 27 18:50:05 Is there any particular benefit to me in running hacker edition of OS2007 on my N770 instead of the included OS2006? Jun 27 18:50:15 ty for helping with this pupnik Jun 27 18:50:16 ttuttle: are you a 770 hacker yet? Jun 27 18:50:22 glad to Brenduh Jun 27 18:50:25 pupnik: No, I don't have the device yet. Jun 27 18:50:34 pupnik: Does it add any major features? Jun 27 18:50:41 Oh, and how much of the hardware on the N770 is stupidly closed? Jun 27 18:50:42 not that i can tell Jun 27 18:50:46 <||cw> ttuttle: newer app and lib support Jun 27 18:50:54 this isn't good. no cascasding menus in any maemo program work in my sdk Jun 27 18:51:08 ||cw: But that's it? Jun 27 18:51:24 ||cw: Is OS2006 still supported by most apps? Jun 27 18:52:32 yes Jun 27 18:52:35 Okay. Jun 27 18:52:41 well pooh, the program works but when I click 'connect' i get "missing protocol plugin Jun 27 18:52:58 So the only real purpose of hacker OS2007 is to test stuff on the N770 that will run on the N800? Jun 27 18:54:21 some members of the community started screaming and hollering when nokia said they wouldn't provide an OS upgrade to 2006, so they released a semi-finished OS (2007) for the hackers who demanded it Jun 27 18:54:33 <||cw> ttuttle: the "not everything works and some things will crash" warning on hacker ed are enough to keep me away. I want to USE mine, not just play with the OS Jun 27 18:55:00 pupnik: Ah. I assume Nokia isn't going to finish it for them? Jun 27 18:55:10 <||cw> maybe if they get really board Jun 27 18:55:16 <||cw> bored? Jun 27 18:55:32 pupnik: I'm sorta disappointed. I expected a Linux-powered device to be relatively open, but I'm finding that all of the fun N770 hardware is accessed in a non-standard way by proprietary binaries. Jun 27 18:55:38 I'm using it, and i am having fun with it. But i have to mix apps from 2006 and 2007 to get them working Jun 27 18:55:42 <||cw> I'm sure nokia will accept patches though, and release an update eventually Jun 27 18:55:51 ttuttle: can't be helped. hardware manufacturers forced that Jun 27 18:56:12 pupnik: /me grumbles. Jun 27 18:56:13 it was workign fine in the 3.1 sdk :-( Jun 27 18:56:16 ||cw: Really? Jun 27 18:56:59 <||cw> ttuttle: eventualy could be a very long time, but why wouldn't they accept patches? Jun 27 18:57:09 ||cw: Because they have better things to do, like make new products. Jun 27 18:57:11 ttuttle: it rules. i never ported apps before in my life and i've been having so much fun with maemo + scratchbox. Jun 27 18:57:20 ||cw: I would wonder why they *would* accept patches. Jun 27 18:57:27 ||cw: Why take responsibility for something you can ignore? Jun 27 18:57:49 pupnik: I finally remembered what I did to get openssh to work before: apt-get install ssh Jun 27 18:57:50 pupnik: Are you using Eclipse and Laika? Jun 27 18:57:59 Thanks for your help Jun 27 18:58:00 nope. vi Jun 27 18:58:15 * pupnik sings 'laika virgin...' Jun 27 18:58:43 :D Jun 27 18:58:59 I prefer coding in a nice IDE than a text editor anyday :-P I did all my PS2 coding with EditPadPro. Was not fun. Jun 27 18:59:20 So is there any good way to code on the Maemo itself? Jun 27 18:59:33 not without a keyboard :-P Jun 27 18:59:37 I've always wanted to write a Forth interpreter with a magic input method that knows what commands are available. Jun 27 19:00:46 I want to make a program that acts like a sheet of paper (like Xournal) but alows you to add edit boxes that can have spreadsheet-like formulas Jun 27 19:01:47 i want a pony ! Jun 27 19:01:58 I want my #$%^ N770 to get here. Jun 27 19:02:10 I want mine too Jun 27 19:02:22 :) Jun 27 19:02:36 KaylaKaze: woot? Jun 27 19:02:37 since I'll probably have to develop with CPU transparency to it since my menus don't work in the sdk Jun 27 19:02:39 yep Jun 27 19:02:45 KaylaKaze ;-) Jun 27 19:02:58 I'd never even heard of them until I saw the woot. I'd been wanting somethign like this for years Jun 27 19:03:18 (though I wouldn't have paid over $150 for it) Jun 27 19:04:08 ttuttle: only hardware that is closed is wlan and battery charging.. Jun 27 19:06:01 ttuttle: you seem to be so sure about your assessments on Nokia and maemo :) Jun 27 19:06:03 suihkulokki: can you help lardman get headers to the dsp kernel? Jun 27 19:06:07 are open programs supposed to show in the left hand column? I think I've got a couple things open but they're not there and I have no clue how to access them otherwise Jun 27 19:07:24 ttuttle: "how much of the hardware on the N770 is stupidly closed?" - generally Nokia has a non-stupid rason to have things open or closed Jun 27 19:08:01 KaylaKaze: yes Jun 27 19:08:05 however, if you find a component stupidly closed please file a bug explaining why and we will discuss Jun 27 19:09:14 ttuttle: "I expected a Linux-powered device to be relatively open, but I'm finding that all of the fun N770 hardware is accessed in a non-standard way by proprietary binaries." Jun 27 19:09:32 qgil: Okay, that was an exaggeration. Jun 27 19:09:35 ttuttle: maemo and the tablets are relatively open: 90% of the code is open source Jun 27 19:10:06 unique311: why don't you use gstreamer? Jun 27 19:10:12 770 hardware can't be called standard as you would call PC desktop/laptop hardware (and even these need closed binaries in many cases to run) Jun 27 19:10:30 that way you can play ogg easily after installing ogg on the device Jun 27 19:11:50 qgil: Okay, I'm looking at the os2007on770 page. It says that osso-interaction-server, ke-recv, mediaplayer-daemon, mediaplayer-ui, osso-mediaengine, metalayer-crawler, osso-hss-control, libmediaplayer, osso-mvi, osso-browser,opera-{adapter,eal,dynamic}, osso-ic, osso-dsp-modules-rx-34, bt-firmware, and gstreamer-hantro are all closed. Jun 27 19:12:12 qgil: Now I can understand that some codecs are simply proprietary, and you don't want to risk distributing source code... but what about the mediaplayer itself? Jun 27 19:12:15 id love to try the update to the os but. i just got the 2006 working and finally after weeks dialing my anoyingly uncooperative vx6700 Jun 27 19:12:38 what i need is a image backup of the internal ram.. any ideas? Jun 27 19:12:43 ttuttle: there are even more trivial examples that are closed for whatever reason. Jun 27 19:12:50 nomis: Like what? Jun 27 19:13:20 qgil: How much of it is open-source but developed completely by Nokia? Jun 27 19:13:24 ttuttle: some of the applets for the desktop. Jun 27 19:13:41 nomis: Is there a list somewhere? Jun 27 19:13:47 qgil: (You still there?) Jun 27 19:14:00 yes, I need some time to write :) Jun 27 19:14:02 ttuttle: dunno. Jun 27 19:14:11 qgil: Sure, no problem. Jun 27 19:14:44 ttuttle: the thing is that for nokia the question is not "why is this closed?", but "why should we open it?" Jun 27 19:14:57 * nomis not a Nokia employee btw. Jun 27 19:15:08 nomis: Why? Look at the Linux desktop! It's all open, and it's benefitted greatly. Jun 27 19:15:12 ttuttle: Nokia is a company that invests resources in an applications like the media player. Nokia thinks that the right way to release that software that has created is not with a free license. You might disagree, but this is not a stupid argumen t Jun 27 19:15:50 qgil: Aren't there plenty of open-source media players? Jun 27 19:16:02 ttuttle: Nokia has invested a lot of resources in open source development as well, and the open source community is benefiting from it Jun 27 19:16:04 it has a version of mplayer yes? Jun 27 19:16:08 qgil, it's just a ridiculous argument *g* Jun 27 19:16:10 qgil: (I don't mean to demean the one that comes with it, but is it reinventing the wheel?) Jun 27 19:16:14 or is that not the same mplayer im thinking of Jun 27 19:16:20 ttuttle: not with a UI ready to work on tablets the day the 770 was released Jun 27 19:16:22 konttori its an application i just decided to compile...found it on the python wiki page... Jun 27 19:16:24 qgil: Okay. Jun 27 19:16:41 what kind of app is it? Jun 27 19:16:43 qgil: much like Nokia has benefited from free software Jun 27 19:16:51 a music player. Jun 27 19:16:57 called timplayer.. Jun 27 19:16:58 were you able to compile it? Jun 27 19:17:01 sxpert, why is it ridiculous? Jun 27 19:17:21 well actually there was no need to compile the player.. Jun 27 19:17:27 just the dependencies Jun 27 19:17:28 ttuttle: (please don't ask me to explain nokias position, I don't know the actual reasoning, except for quims talk at Linuxtag) Jun 27 19:17:36 nomis: I won't. Jun 27 19:17:41 unique311: good luck! Jun 27 19:17:45 ab, of course! Nokia is not complaining about how it benefits from open source, but Nokia hasn't got bad feeling about its contribution to free software either Jun 27 19:17:58 no need for luck.. Jun 27 19:17:59 and in Nokias position I probably wouldn't even touch mplayer with a long pole. Jun 27 19:18:08 why not? Jun 27 19:18:13 nomis, ? Jun 27 19:18:16 qgil: Is the microphone accessible using OSS or ALSA or ESD or ARTS or something like that? Jun 27 19:18:18 qgil, my reasoning is that, apart from the patent-laden codecs from hell, there's not much in a media player app that warrant not being open Jun 27 19:18:25 qgil: This page http://maemo.org/community/wiki/enablemic/ says it's not. Jun 27 19:19:03 rhys: a) I suspect that the legal issues regarding the proprietary codecs are very complicated. Jun 27 19:19:05 ttuttle, there should have been a micsrc gstreamer plugin, if you ask me Jun 27 19:19:05 qgil: I sorta agree with qgil. I would think (I may well be wrong) that it would be easier to pick up lib{xine,mplayer,...} and stick a new UI on it. Jun 27 19:19:09 ttuttle: that one voip program uses the mic Jun 27 19:19:21 KaylaKaze: Yeah, but is that program open source? Jun 27 19:19:23 konttori, http://creationix.com/OpenSource/TimPlayer/ Jun 27 19:19:25 sxpert, while this might be true in 2007 it wasn't that clear in the time a 770 had to be released, I guess Jun 27 19:19:27 I don't know Jun 27 19:19:34 nomis, what does the n800 use for video? Jun 27 19:19:35 I thought it was Jun 27 19:19:43 I agree that the nokia player is so simple there should be no probelm compiling something opensource if you really need to develop your own. Jun 27 19:19:46 ive looked at canola Jun 27 19:19:57 unique311: yeah, I had a look at the screenshots. Jun 27 19:19:59 qgil, they could have evolved the license(s) over time for the appropriate bits, I suppose Jun 27 19:19:59 nokias media player isn OSS/ Jun 27 19:20:01 ? Jun 27 19:20:15 rhys: codecs licensed by the respective owners. Jun 27 19:20:23 sxpert: I use just kilikali & mplayer for my media, haven't missed the mediaplayer UI at all... ;) Jun 27 19:20:34 zuh, hah, well :D Jun 27 19:20:34 rhys: i.e. people you can have a contract with. Jun 27 19:20:37 look, the general principle now is that platform components need to be open whenever possible and shared with the community and even competitors while... Jun 27 19:21:06 sxpert: And as a bonus I can actually listen to / watch formats not officially supported :P Jun 27 19:21:19 Nokia builds the competitive advantage on great hardware and cool applications/services people love and want to have in their hands - the latter can be open or closed Jun 27 19:21:20 I jsut wish I coudl figure out why my SDK won't work right! grr! I don't know if it's a SDK thing or an Ubuntu thing. 3.1 seemed to work fine, ut I'e had to reinstall ubuntu since I installed that. Jun 27 19:21:29 rhys: the other thing is that I strongly suspect that mplayers code quality sucks. Jun 27 19:21:38 qgil: What about the mic thing? Jun 27 19:21:52 sxpert opening sourc code is not just about relicensing Jun 27 19:21:58 i love mplayer on my main machine.. Jun 27 19:22:14 sxpert: qgil is right. It's gotta be release-quality, and free of company secrets. Jun 27 19:22:27 <||cw> mplayer is awesome, and mencoder as well Jun 27 19:22:28 sxpert you need to work in your code to make it usable in an open source way, you need to document mor and better, you need to be prepared to receive contributions and have a community around it Jun 27 19:23:04 about the microphone, how does gizmo work then? Jun 27 19:23:06 sxpert all this extra work is sometimes justified (see the current email client versus the modest email client that is coming) Jun 27 19:23:08 qgil: What about the mic thing. Jun 27 19:23:11 <||cw> ttuttle: IT2006 has the mic driver Jun 27 19:23:18 ||cw: Is it open source? Jun 27 19:23:26 but in some other cases... well, there are priorities and not time/money to push everything at the same time Jun 27 19:23:27 <||cw> i don't really care, it works Jun 27 19:23:30 ||cw: Okay. Jun 27 19:23:36 ||cw: What framework does it use? Jun 27 19:23:36 if the closed media player bothers you, just install another one Jun 27 19:23:49 the mic thing Jun 27 19:23:54 <||cw> ttuttle: whatever the rest of the tablet uses i imagne Jun 27 19:23:56 qgil: Okay, the media player thing is fine with me. I understand. Jun 27 19:24:22 rhys: I use mplayer regularily as well. However, when used from the commandline it spits lots of scary stuff and it crashes frequently on some streams as well. Jun 27 19:24:40 qgil: Is the tablet accessed directly in X or in GTK? Jun 27 19:24:41 nomis, for once, the ignorance of GUIs is bliss. Jun 27 19:25:00 mmm well, I don't know the exact details, I would prefer that you ask in maemo-developers so the right people can answer Jun 27 19:25:13 qgil: About the mic thing? Jun 27 19:25:20 rhys: I just take that as hints that the code is mediocre. Jun 27 19:25:32 however, isn't this rlated to the DSP thing? Jun 27 19:25:48 qgil: What? The mic thing? No. I'm talking about just plain audio input, like with ALSA. Jun 27 19:25:53 nomis..i just bought my n800 today. it ships out tommarow morning. 225$. Jun 27 19:25:55 new. Jun 27 19:25:59 rhys: Nice. Jun 27 19:26:18 I was practicly screaming about it. IT RUNS LINUX!!!!!!!!!! Jun 27 19:26:38 ttuttle: while I can answer questions about openness and strategy, I'm not the best person to ask about technical details of the maemo platform - sorry for not covering as much Jun 27 19:26:39 <||cw> I'd prefer mplayer only print to console a short stream summary and the status line while playing, with a switch to enable the current spam Jun 27 19:26:50 qgil: Oh, that's fine. Jun 27 19:26:56 its like an iphone. only better. no phone contract. no "no option for this" and its customizable, bash script able, LINUX!!! Jun 27 19:27:23 qgil: Hmm... I've gotta say, it's one of the coolest devices I've seen, regardless of licensing. Jun 27 19:27:31 damn damn damn. LINUX!!!!! Jun 27 19:27:32 qgil: A coworker of mine has an N800, and it's just beautiful. Jun 27 19:27:44 qgil: Yesterday I sounded like rhys sounds now. Jun 27 19:27:53 oh, there was one question left about open source development made by Nokia Jun 27 19:27:54 LINUX!@! Jun 27 19:27:56 <||cw> rhys: you know a lot of devices run linux... Jun 27 19:27:57 :D Jun 27 19:28:07 Well the iphone is BSD :-) Jun 27 19:28:18 ||cw, actually i do. i have a NGW100 reference design in my truck right now. AVR32. Jun 27 19:28:29 well, the main way Nokia has approached open source development is to contirbute directly upstream or push whole components also in upstream Jun 27 19:28:33 gonna play with that eventually. Jun 27 19:28:34 <||cw> rhys: what's sexy is that the nokia's are loosely debian based Jun 27 19:28:47 apt is nice, debian is not. Jun 27 19:28:52 qgil: That is good. Jun 27 19:29:04 <||cw> what's not good about debian? Jun 27 19:29:08 ||cw, i use zenwalk linux. slackware based. arch now and again. Jun 27 19:29:14 rhys: (AVR32) Oooh, nice. I need to get one as well. Jun 27 19:29:24 <||cw> slack is just a bsd wannabe Jun 27 19:29:39 ||cw, seen zenwalk? Jun 27 19:30:08 i actually would try freebsd, but the kernel causes instant crashes on my lappy. Jun 27 19:30:14 ok, got to do other things but... please make sur your most serious and well argumented complaints end up in http://bugs.maemo.org , either as bugs or enhancement requests Jun 27 19:30:26 IRC and mailing list are ok but, you know, so easy to forget Jun 27 19:30:44 qgil: Thanks! Jun 27 19:30:50 qgil: (Do you come here often?) Jun 27 19:30:56 well, no :( Jun 27 19:31:07 qgil: Oh. Sorry to take so much of your time with ranting then. Jun 27 19:31:10 nomis, check slashdot. someone just posted a SBC flash drive based on an avr32 processor Jun 27 19:31:17 at some point I discovered that th mor I followed every channel, the less I could work on actual stuff Jun 27 19:31:33 and at the end the best favour I can do to people like you is do my work :) Jun 27 19:32:04 and i thank you for it qgil Jun 27 19:32:08 i forgot, what do you work on? Jun 27 19:32:15 ttuttle: you ranting is apprciated because it is frank, we just need to make sure that people are bothered about the right things so we can push the debate to new levels, together Jun 27 19:32:40 pupnik: my role is product manager of maemo - the development platform Jun 27 19:32:51 wow coolness Jun 27 19:32:59 oh. Jun 27 19:33:09 very cool Jun 27 19:33:14 qgil, are you in nokia employ? Jun 27 19:33:48 of course, this is why in some occasions I need some extra seconds to think what I'm writing :) Jun 27 19:33:50 qgil: have a question. is there a way to use the imaging app to back up a ram image? Jun 27 19:34:01 not just restore one? Jun 27 19:34:08 rhys: nice. Jun 27 19:34:27 Daniellion: sorry, don't know the answer - product managers are generally not developers, and the other way round Jun 27 19:34:29 I assume you guys have a tool to make an image to distribute. Any chance that utility will see the light of day Jun 27 19:34:35 Ahh Jun 27 19:34:37 rats Jun 27 19:34:48 qgil: Well, I'm always happy to go on philosophical rants. ;-) Jun 27 19:35:01 ttuttle: you definitely will find me there :) Jun 27 19:35:20 qgil: Basically, the more stuff I have code to hack on, and the more stuff that works with or the same way as existing code, the better. Jun 27 19:35:22 I'm following rligiously maemo-developers mailing list Jun 27 19:35:27 nomis, a friend of mine works doing embedded thermastats. he gots a bunch of atmel products now to build embedded boards. gave me this one. Supports up to a SVGA tft monitor, has usb, 2 10/100 ethernet jacks, jtag, 2 audio outputs. Jun 27 19:35:32 qgil: How high-traffic is it? Should I subscribe? Jun 27 19:36:03 its like 3x3 inches. its begging for a carputer. Jun 27 19:36:08 i hope all you new 770 owners hunker down and install stratchbox+maemo and get into the *real* fun side of it. Porting and improving the apps you want. Jun 27 19:36:09 ttuttle: 1. alignment with th Linux desktop and upstream projects is core part of our strategy Jun 27 19:36:19 (even if sometimes we are slower than you'd wish) Jun 27 19:36:37 2. maemo.-developers is a list I recommend to anybody interesting in hacking in maemo Jun 27 19:36:50 gah. ships tommarow. i want it -right- now. LINUX! Jun 27 19:37:07 I'd say that it has a good quality and low noise ratio compared to other open source related mailing lists Jun 27 19:37:19 qgil: are the intel MID devices using and improving maemo, or just forking/stealing code? Jun 27 19:37:21 qgil, is there OpenOffice functionality for maemo? as in a "documentstogo" kinda app? Jun 27 19:37:31 heh... i will not ask more Jun 27 19:37:44 <||cw> rhys: other than abiword and gnumeric? Jun 27 19:37:51 nvm Jun 27 19:37:51 pupnik: Intel (and Ubuntu) and others are collaborating in the context of th GNOME Mobile and Embedded initiative Jun 27 19:37:55 qgil: How much support is there at Nokia for keeping up support for the N770? Jun 27 19:38:03 however, there is not such concept as stealing in free software, isn't it Jun 27 19:38:03 ||cw, thats what i use on my desktop ffs. Jun 27 19:38:09 I trieds to read the text input these on the n800 but it failed :( Jun 27 19:38:27 i heard someone got gnome running on it ;) Jun 27 19:38:42 I want to know why I'm the only one in the freakin' world to get this SDK going in this weird condition.grrr Jun 27 19:38:45 qgil: I mean I'm sure someone will always be there to support it on their own, but it's much better if it has support in terms of resources. Jun 27 19:38:45 Daniellion: did you see the evas demo? Jun 27 19:38:57 ttuttle: http://desdeamericaconamor.org/blog/node/356 - a comment at the end says that we are on holidays and all what we said was blah bla, but I can tell this is not true Jun 27 19:39:34 what is evas? Jun 27 19:39:38 evas demo? Jun 27 19:39:39 i know its part of e17 Jun 27 19:39:42 link? Jun 27 19:39:58 and they plan to port all their stuff to embedded, or are making it scale very very well.. Jun 27 19:40:00 eves this !! http://www.rasterman.com/ Jun 27 19:40:07 i just didnt understand what the demo showed Jun 27 19:40:15 following http://planet.maemo.org is another good advice to i.e. see all those cool demos Jun 27 19:40:54 even Jun 27 19:41:15 so it will run full e17 Jun 27 19:41:42 ok, speaking of GNOME I need to go and give a littl push to the new website - http://gnome.jardigrec.eu (this is /me by night, sometimes) Jun 27 19:41:43 no, but evas it pretty far I would say Jun 27 19:43:10 rhys: what part did you not understand? ( http://blog.gustavobarbieri.com.br/2007/06/23/edje-demo-on-n800-application-launcher-mockup/ ) here is the url Jun 27 19:43:36 keesj, what part of e17 is evas? Jun 27 19:44:48 evas is a canvas, that is used a lot in e. Jun 27 19:45:10 screw it. I'm gonna install 3.1 and see if THAT one works Jun 27 19:45:20 THe idea is that you describe the behaviour/animations much like flash I would say , only cooler :p Jun 27 19:45:53 apparently rasterman has the e desktop running, only also he does not know how to enable the keyboard thing / Jun 27 19:46:18 well ubuntu 'stole' from debian in the sense of using it as a base, making a fork and not backporting developments to debian Jun 27 19:46:34 for me this is clearly the e desktop http://www.rasterman.com/files/e17-n800-2.jpg Jun 27 19:46:42 so like the vx9700 (i think), its a cellphone that runs its menu and UI entirely on adobe flash. so..evas is like the flash environ where you can make a UI? Jun 27 19:47:03 rhys: evas is a compositing/render environment Jun 27 19:47:20 so yes. Jun 27 19:47:43 Sort of. It's kinda-sorta-handwavey like XGL/XComposite/Cairo all rolled up Jun 27 19:47:50 there is also some scripting (edje) but that I did not understand Jun 27 19:47:56 if i recall from years ago when I looked at it Jun 27 19:48:21 i have the vx6700 now i use it as a modem for the 770 Jun 27 19:48:29 ;) good use for windows mobile ;) Jun 27 19:49:54 Daniellion, my college is entirely wifi covered. Noowhere I go doesnt have wifi. Jun 27 19:55:32 my problem is my work uses ttls Jun 27 19:55:33 I don't know how I'm supposed to design software when I can't even use cascading menus, stupid POS SDK Jun 27 19:55:38 so i cant get on our wifi netowrk Jun 27 19:58:38 ttls? Jun 27 19:58:42 oh Jun 27 19:58:46 time to go Jun 27 20:03:02 Anyone here use woot before? Do you know any tricks for getting them to ship your package faster? Jun 27 20:03:50 TTLS tunnling TLS protocall Jun 27 20:08:43 supposedly, they've already shipped, just not updated the pages Jun 27 20:09:17 someone was saying they've already got theirs from woot Jun 27 20:09:37 KaylaKaze: You're shitting me. Jun 27 20:09:42 KaylaKaze: That's impossible. Jun 27 20:09:51 woot is in tx and they're in AR Jun 27 20:09:54 KaylaKaze: Ah. Jun 27 20:11:28 KaylaKaze: I think they use cheaper shipping, and then rig the page so it looks like it only takes 3 days when it really takes many more. Jun 27 20:12:16 well, I've ordered soemthign fromt hem before and it didn't take very long Jun 27 20:12:30 it could be 'cause they recently switched to new software or soemthing Jun 27 20:13:43 grrr! I just want to make my simple virtual paper program! is that too much to ask! but no! this stupid SDK has to go and be all screwy Jun 27 20:15:07 KaylaKaze: sorry to hear it. I've not heard of that problem before :/ Jun 27 20:16:01 apparently no one has which therefore means there's no way to fix it Jun 27 20:16:49 well in those cases, i use the uneducated car mechanic approach to fixing Jun 27 20:16:53 swapping out components Jun 27 20:17:52 except there's nothing to swap out Jun 27 20:18:15 it just plain doens't work. no errors, no noghing Jun 27 20:19:04 different version of the rootfs, different xephyr Jun 27 20:19:56 what rootfs? Jun 27 20:20:36 lo Jun 27 20:21:15 the maemo version installed in the scratchbox environment Jun 27 20:22:17 well, Ic an't very well change versions of that or it won't work on an actual unit Jun 27 20:22:43 what are you running btw? Jun 27 20:23:00 qgil, doing tech support again? :-D Jun 27 20:23:53 hmmm... maybe if I design a program in eclipse using menus I can run it with the debugger... Jun 27 20:24:04 2.2 Jun 27 20:24:06 qgil, you said that when we (Nokia) want to open some code, it needs to be properly documented and there needs to be a community around it. Jun 27 20:24:47 m-vo, this is what tech support has become Jun 27 20:24:55 I agree that if Nokia is to benefit from opening the code, a community is needed, but the code must be open first before the community can appear. Jun 27 20:25:30 m-vo, let me find what I said :) Jun 27 20:25:37 m-vo: some groups come into being because the code is not open Jun 27 20:26:02 say XBox or PSP homebrew Jun 27 20:26:02 blkhawk: But you want the kind of devs who come because there's code to hack, not to complain about the lack of code. Jun 27 20:26:04 Luckily, the maemo community is thriving, but we could be better at integrating with it. Jun 27 20:26:13 ya Jun 27 20:26:20 m-vo: "you need to work in your code to make it usable in an open source way, you need to document mor and better, you need to be prepared to receive contributions and have a community around it" Jun 27 20:26:51 I learned with the A780 that there is nothing worse than a company that dangles the promise of OS in front of you like a carrot Jun 27 20:26:53 = to be prepared to have a community around it, not to have it befor opening the code Jun 27 20:26:58 Ahh, sorry. "need to be prepared to have a community". Jun 27 20:27:00 meas like nothing gets done fast Jun 27 20:27:14 Yes, very good, I was reading too fast. Sorry. Jun 27 20:27:58 Are we prepared? :-) Jun 27 20:28:08 I would say so. Jun 27 20:28:09 I wanted to ask whats the best way to write an mono-gtk app for a N770 or n800 without having an actual N770 or n800? Jun 27 20:28:41 m-vo: depends on how you look the bottle half full/empty Jun 27 20:28:52 looking at public bugzila I could conclude no, we are not :P Jun 27 20:28:53 :-) Jun 27 20:29:13 I guess the right answer comes component by component Jun 27 20:29:17 all the whining about closed source components, yet so little contributions to the majority code that is actually already open source Jun 27 20:29:22 qgil: as long as the bottle isn't broken...... Jun 27 20:29:23 the Modest client are doing it the right way Jun 27 20:29:27 we are prepared since we have the bugzilla, but yes, we don't make good use of it (I don't, at least.) Jun 27 20:29:36 Hildon is probably doing also the right steps Jun 27 20:30:19 other closed components are not that ready yet, but overall I would say we ar progressing Jun 27 20:30:32 I should pay more attention to bugs.maemo.org (and less attention to non-community things). Jun 27 20:30:37 for some peopl this progress might looks slow, I would say the speed is right Jun 27 20:30:56 if we consider that the first tablet was presented just 2 years ago, and where we are now... Jun 27 20:31:10 Yes. Jun 27 20:32:07 m-vo: I'm working behind the scenes to make sure developers like you pay more attention to bugs.maemo.org - pity that the summer came to Finland because the cake was quite ready - I hope to have good news in august-september Jun 27 20:32:19 for me the most frustrating thing is how slow i am with my own projects Jun 27 20:32:21 qgil: btw one pet rant.. the insulating of devels from commnunity via bugzilla and it's anonymous contributors is just pure crack Jun 27 20:32:27 But the maemo community appears a bit fractured, no? For example, the question by blkhawk about mono-gtk; it's too hard to find all the pieces. Jun 27 20:32:38 s/anonymous contributors/anonymous role persons/ Jun 27 20:32:39 suihkulokki meant: qgil: btw one pet rant.. the insulating of devels from commnunity via bugzilla and it's anonymous role persons is just pure crack Jun 27 20:32:46 qgil, excellent. Jun 27 20:34:04 jani are you here ? Jun 27 20:34:50 foo Jun 27 20:34:53 s/foo/bar/ Jun 27 20:34:54 m-vo meant: bar Jun 27 20:34:58 neat! Jun 27 20:35:33 s/neat!/probably annoying in the long run/ Jun 27 20:35:33 m-vo meant: probably annoying in the long run Jun 27 20:35:33 !help Jun 27 20:36:15 suihkulokki: if I undrstand you, yes, maybe. But compare this to other corporate channels of fedback and get conclusions yourselve Jun 27 20:36:42 i have gotten significant help from nokia core developers. never seen that before. Jun 27 20:37:08 suihkulokki: it is fine that Nokia gets compared to other open source projects when looking at maemo, but we can't forget that Nokia is a global corporation, with global policis, global competitors and so on Jun 27 20:37:39 at a maemo level we have to find a compromise between two worlds with (until now) very few intersections, and I'd say all in all we are not doing that bad Jun 27 20:38:09 Also, Nokia's contribution to open source are quite big, but not always very visible. Jun 27 20:38:11 qgil: IBM, sun, etc manage to have real people responding in their OSS projects.. Jun 27 20:38:15 it'd be nice if other companies also made products using maemo Jun 27 20:38:27 suihkulokki: aren't we real people? Jun 27 20:38:45 For example, Hildon is treated more and more as just another Open source project and peopla start saying that Nokia selected Hildon for the Internet Tablets. Jun 27 20:39:00 m-vo is real as well, I can tell :) Jun 27 20:39:17 sometimes I am even complex. Jun 27 20:39:26 either that or Nokia has some high-level top-secret chatbot AI Jun 27 20:39:27 qgil: yep, we are not real people, we are real persons Jun 27 20:40:11 wow, that is correct Jun 27 20:40:35 in maemo-developers (and maemo-users too) you also get many @nokia.com persons answering Jun 27 20:40:50 sur, it can be improved but well, not that bad Jun 27 20:42:39 infobot: why arn't you correcting my zillion mispellings? Jun 27 20:43:26 qgil: sure :) but I mean communications such as: https://maemo.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=474 Jun 27 20:44:50 suihkulokki: thre Maemo QA is answering you in 2006 and I'm answering you in 2007 - isn't this an improvement in terms of real persons? ;) Jun 27 20:45:54 well, not "you", but anyway Jun 27 20:48:03 suihkulokki: this situation will probably/hopefully improve even more with the bugs.maemo.org components reorg and maintainers we are pushing slowli slowly (but I think firmly), as said befor with "I'm working behind the scenes to make sure developers like you pay more attention to bugs.maemo.org..." Jun 27 20:57:49 is the tranparent xterm keyboard still avaiable somewhere? Jun 27 20:58:16 is that readable/> Jun 27 20:58:57 :p no it's tranparent Jun 27 21:02:05 alright, I got a cascading memu tester program and it doesn't work so hopefully running it with debugging will help Jun 27 21:03:33 does anybody know if there's a 2.2 scratchbox+maemo vmware image for download that KaylaKaze could try? Jun 27 21:03:38 and it won't debug :-( Jun 27 21:03:42 I think there is Jun 27 21:04:26 i'm trying to guess what it could be Jun 27 21:04:43 when you log into scratchbox, do you see any error messages? Jun 27 21:04:47 no Jun 27 21:05:11 if you run standalone programs, do they work? Jun 27 21:05:24 the only error messages I get are from Xephyr saying it's removing a couple fonts from the list. I thought that may be the problem at first, except, in that split second the submenu comes up, I can see that it's rendering the text fine Jun 27 21:05:37 standalone as in what? Jun 27 21:06:56 can somebody try to download the text input these on the n800? on my device it gets pretty large Jun 27 21:07:44 KaylaKaze, sounds like the infamous "invisible window" bug: IIRC matchbox will immediately close the menu under certain circumstances, such as when there is a special toplevel window somewhere. Jun 27 21:07:50 here is the url http://maemo.org/intro/presentations/text_input_on_mobile_devices-master-s_thesis_document.html Jun 27 21:08:04 I don't have any details, sorry. Jun 27 21:08:38 and it's a different size every time! i will file a bug I guess Jun 27 21:09:32 I'm tryign to find that vmware file Jun 27 21:12:23 there's a subdomain of maemo.org that has them Jun 27 21:12:31 but I can't find it. grrr Jun 27 21:16:13 found it and I've got it downloading, but I have no idea what version it is Jun 27 21:18:54 perhaps this one http://maemovmware.garage.maemo.org/ Jun 27 21:20:01 text input these ? Jun 27 21:21:10 guardian: that's what the title is saying :p Jun 27 21:21:36 yeah, that's the one I've got on d/l Jun 27 21:23:28 does anyone know if that vmware/qemu image requires PAE? Jun 27 21:23:56 what is PAE? Jun 27 21:25:42 "Physical Address Extension" and some kernels require it to boot Jun 27 21:26:10 my Pentium M chip does not have this feature i guess Jun 27 21:26:48 a VMWare image is a virtual machine Jun 27 21:26:51 qemu does not need that Jun 27 21:27:00 it doesn't care what hardware you're on Jun 27 21:27:12 (as long as it's powerful enough) Jun 27 21:27:18 perhaps very recent version that use the now open sourced kqemu Jun 27 21:27:36 it requires x86 :) Jun 27 21:28:04 hmm, because when i try to boot the vmware image from here:http://linuxtracker.org/torrents-details.php?id=3468 Jun 27 21:29:04 it's getting pretty crazy , sbox in a VMWare Jun 27 21:29:19 why's that crazy? Jun 27 21:29:27 it refuses to boot in vmware player with the message:Unkown interrupt or Fault ... Jun 27 21:29:38 gwak__: is right about PAE Jun 27 21:30:36 not crazy , just a lot of work Jun 27 21:30:58 it saves work by letting people get started without scratchbox setup Jun 27 21:30:59 how so? Jun 27 21:31:04 its better if i learn about the toolchain first hand Jun 27 21:31:23 I meant that to keesj, btw Jun 27 21:31:31 KaylaKaze: not for users, for creating such tools. Jun 27 21:31:49 oh, ok Jun 27 21:31:58 NokiaOS! Jun 27 21:32:24 with shipped eclipse/python and development tools Jun 27 21:32:50 I pretty much would have that now, if it was working right Jun 27 21:33:11 thought 3.1 seemed to work fine yesterday Jun 27 21:33:15 though* Jun 27 21:33:32 but I haven't tried 3.1 again since reinstalling ubuntu Jun 27 21:36:01 I installed ubuntu(festy) desktop for the first time I my life a few day's ago. I now have maemo 2.2 and 3.1 installed, the only real new problem for me was the dns that was not working Jun 27 21:36:08 what's the relationship between vmware and qemu anyway ? Jun 27 21:36:31 lately i saw threads on ubuntu forums saying that you need to install qemu to have winxp run inside a vmware player (running on ubuntu) Jun 27 21:36:37 however i never needed qemu Jun 27 21:36:45 keesj: yeah, I had that problem at first Jun 27 21:36:50 but fixed it no prob Jun 27 21:37:37 guardian: I think there is no relation between them Jun 27 21:37:48 now that i'm googling for it Jun 27 21:37:56 it seems that it's just for the qemu-img tool Jun 27 21:38:07 but i've always used easyvmx.com Jun 27 21:38:19 anyway, good night :) Jun 27 21:38:34 what does that do? allow you to make vmx images without workstation? Jun 27 21:38:40 yes Jun 27 21:38:46 vmx config files Jun 27 21:38:46 ++ Jun 27 21:39:54 I should stop playing around with development for a little while and spend some time cleaning my HD :-) Jun 27 21:40:08 greetings Jun 27 23:00:25 will setting a password for "user" break anything? I have no idea what the default one is for trying to connect to the dropbear ssh server Jun 27 23:19:01 starting up wmware image Jun 27 23:23:31 well, I don't have that bug in this version, but I can't tell if this is 2.2 or 3.1 Jun 27 23:23:48 looks like 3.1 Jun 27 23:26:56 network on it doesn't work... Jun 27 23:31:33 anyone using the dropbear server on a 770 (IT 2006) ? Jun 27 23:44:01 switched the network card from NAT to bridged and it works. If you're coding for the 800, I'd say to definitely get this image Jun 28 00:07:58 ericz: "4:55 PM Arrived at FedEx location IRVING, TX"!!!!! It's on its way! Jun 28 00:08:14 ericz: Check yours. Jun 28 00:08:50 ericz: Oh, and http://www.xkcd.com/c281.html. Jun 28 00:13:19 ttuttle, haha Jun 28 00:14:04 mine still says Package data transmitted Jun 28 00:21:21 you guys waiting for the woot deal? Jun 28 00:21:28 yeah Jun 28 00:22:08 expected delivery date of mine is the 29th, and as far as i know, it's still in texas, and i'm in virginia Jun 28 00:22:23 I shoulda picked up a second one, too bad I used all my money on women and coke Jun 28 00:26:47 monteslu: Yeah. Jun 28 00:27:43 monteslu: lol Jun 28 00:28:22 ttuttle, mine hasn't changed :( Jun 28 00:28:35 and i'm closer to texas than you Jun 28 00:28:36 ! Jun 28 00:28:37 ericz: Awwww, sorry. Neither has my brother's. Jun 28 00:28:41 ericz: Yeah, woot is strange. Jun 28 00:28:45 mine still says it hasn't been shipped yhet Jun 28 00:28:49 brother in massachusetts too? Jun 28 00:28:50 ericz: And, I think, a little lazy. Jun 28 00:29:01 KaylaKaze: Use your order ID as the reference number on FedEx.com, see what it says. Jun 28 00:29:07 I really gotta figure out the sshd thing on the 770, code testing is a bitch if i gotta keep pluggin it in to USB Jun 28 00:29:07 KaylaKaze: Mine still officially hasn't shipped, but FedEx has it. Jun 28 00:29:13 ericz: Yeah, twin brother, same house. Jun 28 00:29:16 ah Jun 28 00:29:38 monteslu, is ssh hard to install? that's what i was hoping to install right away. Jun 28 00:29:48 installing is easy Jun 28 00:29:52 and the client works just fine Jun 28 00:29:55 ...but? Jun 28 00:30:03 server doesn't work? Jun 28 00:30:04 I'm trying to get to the server on the device from my workstation Jun 28 00:30:13 oh Jun 28 00:30:19 it works, but I have no idea what "user"'s password is :) Jun 28 00:30:42 I would just set it, but I don't want to lock myself out of the device Jun 28 00:30:52 :-/ i want this thing to Just Work and be easy Jun 28 00:30:57 it will Jun 28 00:31:02 someone was saying they got theirs already and the page still says it hasn't been shipped Jun 28 00:31:03 but I'm developing on it Jun 28 00:31:15 haha, i want to install ssh though Jun 28 00:31:48 ssh client works flawlessly and installs easy enough through the package manager Jun 28 00:31:59 i want the ssh server to work easy :P Jun 28 00:32:06 its a great little device Jun 28 00:32:17 i heard you have to use dropbear? i've never messed with that Jun 28 00:32:24 it works, just uhh.. I havent connected yet :) Jun 28 00:32:35 yeah, dropbear is just like openssh, just smaller Jun 28 00:32:38 is their a 'telnet' ? Jun 28 00:32:45 lemme check... Jun 28 00:33:06 i really need something [telnet for example] to port knock Jun 28 00:33:21 not by default, but I imagine that would be very, very easy to port Jun 28 00:33:46 i have a feeling there's no bash command for "knock" or a knockd server :P i love port knocking. Jun 28 00:33:57 you said put in the order as the tracking number? It seems kinda short for that Jun 28 00:34:15 KaylaKaze, put the order number in as "Track By Reference" Jun 28 00:34:39 oooh! Is there an ansi telnet terminal for 770 so I can MUD on it? Jun 28 00:35:57 found it. Expected on the 30th :-( Jun 28 00:36:56 mudding would not be easy i bet, with the onscreen keyboard anyway Jun 28 00:38:40 WTF! this VMWare image won't let me su Jun 28 00:39:07 and if I can't su, I can't fix the port number thing that scratchbox bitches about Jun 28 00:39:53 ah, got it Jun 28 00:39:55 sudo su Jun 28 00:40:58 and I still have that problem with the 2.2 not working Jun 28 00:41:09 maybe it's the scratchbox version Jun 28 00:42:59 3.1 version is still looking fine Jun 28 00:47:26 nope, right version of scratchbox... Jun 28 00:52:36 adoyle: You have FiOS. Bastard. Jun 28 00:52:55 adoyle: /me wants it. Jun 28 00:55:38 KaylaKaze, have you done any bluetooth stuff through maemo not on the device ? Jun 28 00:57:00 ...maybe I should just do the development on my app as a standard python-gtk app, and then hildonize it afterword Jun 28 00:57:00 no Jun 28 00:57:15 I haven't been able to get anythign but 3.1 to work yet :-( Jun 28 00:57:31 I get a weird screen in Xrphyr Jun 28 00:57:48 I won't be using 3.x anytime soon, at least until IT 2007 gets a real port to the 770 Jun 28 00:57:50 (I'm able to compare it to 3.1 and determine the 2.2 screen looks weird) Jun 28 00:58:23 if anyone thinks they can help, I can try to set Display to connect to your Xephyr server so you can see what it's dowing Jun 28 01:00:15 maybe I can dev with the 3.1 and then just compile it with the 2.2 target... Jun 28 01:33:42 3.1 installed on my ubuntu VM and working fine. 2.2 still not working though Jun 28 01:39:56 no big surprise but my menutest program works perfectly in 3.1 while the 2.2 has that problem thing Jun 28 02:01:13 oooo! I found a PHP5 for 770! Jun 28 02:05:39 really? i wonder how hard it is to code php with onscreen keyboard... Jun 28 02:08:13 why would you want to do that? Jun 28 02:09:47 i like php? Jun 28 02:10:43 yeah, but why would you want to code it with an onscreen keyboard? Jun 28 02:10:44 maybe not enough to code it via onscreen keyboard though Jun 28 02:11:00 btw, do you know if the opera in 2006 can handle XMLHTTP requests? Jun 28 02:11:21 i don't even have my 770 yet Jun 28 02:11:26 i know almost nothing Jun 28 02:11:39 same here. Mine won't be here until saturday Jun 28 02:11:43 ah Jun 28 02:11:45 I think opera has worked with xmlhttp for a long time, so I'd think so Jun 28 02:12:03 I think the woot may have been the first time a lot of people had ever heard of these things Jun 28 02:12:19 was first time i'd heard of it.. and it looked awesome.. now i'm here. :P Jun 28 02:12:38 I know I hadn't 'cause I've been wanting something like this for years Jun 28 02:12:57 though I wanteds it at below $150 and this finally got down that far Jun 28 02:14:01 i can't believe buy.com offered it for just a bit more the next day, and with google checkout as a new user there's $10 discount, i could've got it for a whole $5 less (and maybe even shipped faster)! Jun 28 02:14:22 with PHP, I can make a webpage of a D&D character sheet and use that as my character sheet at my game sunday and I can make it autoupdate and stuff, and with PHP, I'll be able to save it to a file or soemthing when done. Jun 28 02:14:38 and I won't have to drain my battery using wifi to do it connected to my home http Jun 28 02:15:05 hrm, woot just emailed me saying it shipped Jun 28 02:15:14 but the fedex tracking page hasnt changed :p Jun 28 02:15:16 yeah, I got mine a little bit ago Jun 28 02:15:30 but fedex said they had my shipment since this morning Jun 28 02:16:01 mine still looks like it's in texas "Package data transmitted" Jun 28 02:16:18 i have serious doubts about it making it to virginia in two days Jun 28 02:16:18 this is odd. I can't find any of the maemo app download places withg this PHP Jun 28 02:17:02 don't play D&D but instead GURPS Jun 28 02:18:43 I have GURPS but D&D is what is played here with the RPGA and all Jun 28 02:27:12 dang, im in way over my head with this 770 Jun 28 02:27:40 yay! found comic book reader Jun 28 02:27:47 i really should stop visiting woot.com Jun 28 02:29:08 why? Jun 28 02:29:33 countless hours is why Jun 28 02:29:45 first it was those damn bags of shit that kept me up at night Jun 28 02:30:04 ? Jun 28 02:30:10 kept you up? Jun 28 02:30:26 ... Jun 28 02:30:38 woot.com`s bag of crap promo Jun 28 02:30:49 keeps everyone up Jun 28 02:30:49 yeah, but how does that keep you up? Jun 28 02:31:06 woot addiction isn't healthy Jun 28 02:31:23 :/ Jun 28 02:31:25 i dont know, i just... cant leave the woot Jun 28 02:31:43 I don't have ebough $ for woot addiction Jun 28 02:32:23 they have cheap stuff Jun 28 02:32:35 not cheap enough Jun 28 02:32:42 usually Jun 28 02:33:06 they have like 8000000000 kensington products Jun 28 02:33:10 now they need a big sale on 2GB RS-MMC cards Jun 28 02:33:23 lol cheapest i found was amazon for 20$ for 1gb Jun 28 02:33:25 haha, i was hoping they'd do a bluetooth keyboard sale Jun 28 02:34:01 bluetooth kb doesn't work on the 770, does it? unless you go for the HE of 2007 Jun 28 02:34:14 i think it does Jun 28 02:34:23 maybe? Jun 28 02:34:38 ive been doing research on trying to connect my camera Jun 28 02:34:38 'cause I was reading about the HE and one of the things they said was good about it was support for BT KB Jun 28 02:34:49 for USB host? Jun 28 02:34:54 seems like an assload of work to get usb to work Jun 28 02:35:00 yep Jun 28 02:35:23 which sucks 'cause I have gigs of SD cards Jun 28 02:35:45 ya me too Jun 28 02:35:50 we need to find someone with a stock of rsmmc Jun 28 02:36:01 and trade Jun 28 02:36:39 wikipedia says Connectivity IEEE 802.11, Bluetooth Jun 28 02:38:05 it has BT, but not necessarily for KB Jun 28 02:38:16 it uses the BT to connect to cell phones Jun 28 02:38:22 to use them as modems Jun 28 02:38:34 :-/ so you have to do weird stuff to make keyboards work? Jun 28 02:38:43 apparently Jun 28 02:38:46 solder some stuff Jun 28 02:38:50 and learn linux Jun 28 02:38:57 really? you have to solder?! Jun 28 02:39:16 i think, if you want to connect usb Jun 28 02:39:19 that's lame.. there's no like real support for a real keyboard at all? Jun 28 02:39:33 gotta buy some usb hub and wire power into it somehow Jun 28 02:39:56 sucks Jun 28 02:40:05 maybe im reading outdated tutorials Jun 28 02:40:06 or you can use a USB recharger pack Jun 28 02:40:21 like the Mintyboost Jun 28 02:40:42 you have to supply the USB port with 5V of power to make it turn on Jun 28 02:43:12 ah, yep Jun 28 02:43:55 you find a cheap place for a 2gb card yet? Jun 28 02:50:48 nope Jun 28 02:53:44 crap, meritline doens't have any rsmmc at all Jun 28 02:54:33 mintyboost Jun 28 02:54:45 wait... are the MMC Mobile the same as RS just faster transfer speed? Jun 28 02:54:48 looks like 2aa`s Jun 28 02:55:52 There are already Kernel updates for the new Tablet OS 2006 versions which allow the 770 to use larger than 1GB Rs-MMS or Mmc-Mobile media. Jun 28 02:56:26 says the google Jun 28 02:56:35 isnt the mintyboost only 3v? Jun 28 02:56:41 no Jun 28 02:56:50 mintyboost has a power booster circuit Jun 28 02:56:59 takes in 3V and puts out 5V Jun 28 02:57:03 ah Jun 28 02:57:23 and MMCMobile chips are compatible with RSMMC devices Jun 28 02:57:36 they the same dimensions? Jun 28 02:57:50 yeah Jun 28 02:58:00 but still no cheaper Jun 28 02:58:08 I'm still seeing about $20 a gig Jun 28 02:58:28 im seeing stuff about VoIP using n770.. is there an audio input? **** ENDING LOGGING AT Thu Jun 28 02:59:57 2007