**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Wed Aug 01 02:59:57 2007 Aug 01 03:00:02 pupnik, being able to manually optimize it is always good enough Aug 01 03:00:16 It assumes that you can come up with sufficient test cases that exercise your code like real users would. Aug 01 03:00:21 after all, its all about neumann machines =-P Aug 01 03:00:22 Which turns out to be very, very hard. Aug 01 03:00:35 not on a closed arena 3D game =-P Aug 01 03:00:48 Well, okay, but those are not the kind of things I write. Aug 01 03:01:08 derf: do you write stuff that really needs it? Aug 01 03:01:25 I write stuff where performance is, in fact, very critical. Aug 01 03:01:27 I mean...you sound like being a good programmer...yours apps must be optimized enough already Aug 01 03:01:37 hum...nice to know it Aug 01 03:01:47 * NeoStrider swallows his tongue Aug 01 03:02:21 NeoStrider: you could also use 400x240 and Xsp for speedup Aug 01 03:02:37 And I don't mean I don't bother with profiling altogether, just not the compiler's automatic branch prediction stuff. Aug 01 03:02:38 I know, but this stuff is too nasty Aug 01 03:02:42 I would much rather just eliminate the branch. Aug 01 03:03:00 I remember playing hedgehop and having to remove the battery pack becouse I pressed home acidentaly Aug 01 03:03:02 Then it can't be mis-predicted. Aug 01 03:04:06 derf: I dont know much about what you write, but what can vary on my app is what the player sees, but this is merely a case of the size of the rendering pipeline queue Aug 01 03:04:19 or maybe what portals the the camera can see through Aug 01 03:04:34 but its always that case Aug 01 03:04:53 Well, the ARM is somewhat different than a normal desktop processor. Aug 01 03:05:12 I know...N-Gage hacking told me that Aug 01 03:05:18 my 3D on it was SOOOO slow Aug 01 03:05:23 It has built-in condition codes that can speculatively execute small branches and then conditionally write back the results at the end. Aug 01 03:05:40 lets not forget thumb...does maemo use thumb? Aug 01 03:05:47 So, for example, small branches involve no pipeline stall, whether they were predicted correctly or not. Aug 01 03:06:08 derf, im not so worries about all this small stuff Aug 01 03:06:19 im just worried on where, generally , is my penalities Aug 01 03:06:40 Yeah, profiling is good for finding the 10% of your code that is taking up 90% of the time. Aug 01 03:06:42 im not a expert, neither a good programmer...im just worried about the game Aug 01 03:07:22 Well, the only way to become those things is practice. Aug 01 03:07:47 yeah...I remember from my N-Gage days...a game running nice on desktop is NOTHING Aug 01 03:07:54 And don't forget to read other people's code. Aug 01 03:08:05 They'll teach you many things you never thought of. Aug 01 03:08:07 thats a point im missing... Aug 01 03:08:23 there is a great book about efficient coding called 'Programming Pearls' - i don't have my copy handy Aug 01 03:08:45 ive been so worried about BZK for about 3 years that I never worked on anything other that it Aug 01 03:08:48 but Neo is right about doing high level optimizations first Aug 01 03:09:21 NeoStrider: You don't have to work on other projects to read their code. Aug 01 03:09:25 yeah...Douglas Comer once wrote to aproach stuff on levels Aug 01 03:09:45 It's definitely much easier to get big improvements at higher levels. Aug 01 03:09:52 trevarthan, you around? Aug 01 03:09:53 derf: I know...but not even looked into its code...except for small bits Aug 01 03:10:25 yeah...I got a dramatic speed up when I improved the rendering pipeline, adding a "polygon merger" Aug 01 03:10:31 on the tesselation step Aug 01 03:10:54 before that, angstron wouldnt be even playable Aug 01 03:11:20 and I know Im still missing something on how I treat time Aug 01 03:11:32 maybe I need to do things on separated threads Aug 01 03:11:48 That's almost surely a recipe for disaster. Aug 01 03:11:57 multithreading? Aug 01 03:12:07 Yes. Aug 01 03:12:14 hahhaa Aug 01 03:12:33 yeah...but if it works, may improve speed a lot Aug 01 03:12:41 make framerate more consistent Aug 01 03:12:41 doubtful Aug 01 03:12:43 On a single CPU? Aug 01 03:12:45 Not likely. Aug 01 03:12:59 In fact, it will almost surely make it worse. Aug 01 03:13:02 process-switch-penality? Aug 01 03:13:16 Also communication penalty. Aug 01 03:13:21 I think your main speedup will come by limiting the general-purposeness of your 3d engine Aug 01 03:13:37 That's certainly the approach Doom and Descent took. Aug 01 03:13:39 there's nothing in the 'tron' gameplay that requires a do-everything engine Aug 01 03:13:44 They worked just fine on my P90. Aug 01 03:14:43 I do remember Quake was a little slow on my friend's Packard Bell P66. Aug 01 03:14:49 actually ,pupnik, angstron is a small project from a bigger thing Aug 01 03:14:57 BZK is my true big project Aug 01 03:14:59 the game engine Aug 01 03:15:24 Doom ran on 386s Aug 01 03:15:47 my next project is a logo enviroment Aug 01 03:16:17 Texture rendering with an 8-cylce inner loop. Aug 01 03:16:18 it will be of no use...but Its gonna be fun Aug 01 03:16:26 * derf <3 Michael Abrash. Aug 01 03:16:35 derf: im not much into texture rendering Aug 01 03:16:46 If im going to use it, I will use from SDL_gfx Aug 01 03:17:01 Yeah, you kids these days don't know how good you got it. Aug 01 03:18:57 hahaha Aug 01 03:19:22 Im very fond to retro-looking games Aug 01 03:19:37 driller, silpheed, hard drivin' Aug 01 03:22:05 i think Id hired Abrash at some point Aug 01 03:22:13 * pupnik has two of his books Aug 01 03:23:39 i didn't finish them though, cga/ega and x86 were just so ugly Aug 01 03:23:50 * NeoStrider swallow'd Abrash books Aug 01 03:24:07 we got so many screen modes that I got lost Aug 01 03:25:36 by the way NeoStrider to ensure turning off pixel doubling - even in a segfault, i start the game with a shellscript that runs game, and then runs 'undouble' exe Aug 01 03:25:49 so even if game does not exit cleanly, xsp gets turned off right away Aug 01 03:25:55 hum...nice idea Aug 01 03:25:55 once i did this i never had problems Aug 01 03:26:05 but what if the use press home? Aug 01 03:26:44 then i have to ssh-in and kill the process Aug 01 03:26:52 that is a problem yes Aug 01 03:27:42 thats a huge problem Aug 01 03:27:48 the screen gets garbled Aug 01 03:27:55 it scared the user Aug 01 03:28:09 i think the sdl game has to detect if it no longer has window focus Aug 01 03:28:10 if I could do that, I could have lots of speed Aug 01 03:28:11 then turn it off Aug 01 03:28:27 I dont know how easy is to do that Aug 01 03:28:36 pressing home should make sdl game go into pause mode Aug 01 03:28:38 some of that windowing funcs from SDL doesnt work well Aug 01 03:28:49 i will look into it Aug 01 03:31:17 I had some ugly experiences with that Aug 01 03:32:27 NeoStrider, retro games huh Aug 01 03:32:41 can your next deviation be pacman...please Aug 01 03:33:02 sure Aug 01 03:33:07 not hard either Aug 01 03:33:17 indeed, I had this im mind some time ago Aug 01 03:33:24 but 2D? Aug 01 03:33:44 ok how about this.. Aug 01 03:34:14 if you do so, you are my a god to me..not too much of a god..just a semi type god Aug 01 03:34:33 hahaha Aug 01 03:34:44 I will do a look on the odds Aug 01 03:34:49 you will be the first to know Aug 01 03:35:26 (sometimes I feel I abuse on my little english knowledge...if im saying cr*p, please, let me know) Aug 01 03:36:36 how about a 3D game with 2D gameplay? Aug 01 03:37:08 you know...a 3D game, but you move and play like the old 2D one Aug 01 03:37:35 i will do a look on the odds.. Aug 01 03:37:42 not sure what you meant by that.. Aug 01 03:38:04 thanks Aug 01 03:38:14 I will look on the probabilities and how easy it can be Aug 01 03:38:21 (better? I feel dumb) Aug 01 03:39:02 better Aug 01 03:39:28 I'll do some research, and see if it can be done...would be better(er) Aug 01 03:40:35 this (you guys not understanding me) happen too often? Aug 01 03:41:00 no Aug 01 03:41:12 your english is perfect man. Aug 01 03:41:15 like Abe's Oddysey Aug 01 03:41:40 2D platform/puzzle game with 3d characters Aug 01 03:41:46 yeah! Aug 01 03:42:00 or subzero mythologies Aug 01 03:42:06 (N64) Aug 01 03:42:44 NeoStrider, honestly, when I first started to talk to you, I thought you were a native english speaker Aug 01 03:43:23 hey Aug 01 03:43:42 erstazi, i got into computers in 03 Aug 01 03:43:49 hello Luria Aug 01 03:44:04 ah, I have had computers around me probably my whole life Aug 01 03:44:08 thanks erstazi! Aug 01 03:44:13 I do my best Aug 01 03:44:34 i thought the same NeoStrider Aug 01 03:44:38 anyone have a link for a deb of kismet for the n800? Aug 01 03:44:44 but then you told me you were brazilian right Aug 01 03:44:47 I've been using computers since I was 8 (now Im 22...) and doing games since I was 11 ;-) Aug 01 03:44:52 yeah Aug 01 03:44:54 Rio de Janeiro Aug 01 03:45:02 city of gods Aug 01 03:45:06 =-D Aug 01 03:45:07 best movie... Aug 01 03:45:17 yeah...that movie Rocks Aug 01 03:45:18 actually my favorite movie... Aug 01 03:45:28 the actor is now very famous Aug 01 03:45:32 you must check this out. Aug 01 03:45:36 Z? Aug 01 03:45:41 or the camera dude Aug 01 03:45:45 this was one of the first computers I remember being on: an IBM 5150 http://tinyurl.com/2ozu3p Aug 01 03:45:47 camera Aug 01 03:45:47 <_Monkey> camera is, like, so poor that the app thinks the "blurness" is movement Aug 01 03:45:52 freeciv? Aug 01 03:46:10 Z you mean Zé Pequeno? Aug 01 03:46:14 computer looks older than me Aug 01 03:46:21 yeah Aug 01 03:46:21 ("little joe") Aug 01 03:46:30 I am 24 Aug 01 03:47:05 well friends Aug 01 03:47:10 I got to go Aug 01 03:47:13 my face on Z's body http://www.myspace.com/unique0nez Aug 01 03:47:15 almost 1 AM here Aug 01 03:47:26 28 or 29 over here Aug 01 03:47:34 i stopped counting at 25 Aug 01 03:47:49 haha Aug 01 03:47:59 unique311, where are you from? Aug 01 03:48:15 unique311 , hilarious! Aug 01 03:48:43 I'm from Haiti...been living in New York city all my life though.. Aug 01 03:49:02 awesome Aug 01 03:49:12 did that myspace in 2 days Aug 01 03:49:22 cya fellows Aug 01 03:49:23 had to draw all my top frieds.. Aug 01 03:49:27 * pupnik plays pac-man on n770 Aug 01 03:49:32 thanks for the testing Aug 01 03:49:35 pupnik you like Aug 01 03:49:41 lie* Aug 01 03:49:44 I will evaluate the pacman thing =-) Aug 01 03:49:49 bye Aug 01 03:49:51 nope - took about 10 minutes to build Aug 01 03:49:55 unique311, thats crazy, you hand drew them? Aug 01 03:50:07 i have a wacom graphire 4 pad Aug 01 03:50:13 makes life easier Aug 01 03:50:15 I won't put pacman on my 770, my wife will not let me have it back Aug 01 03:50:19 problem is the levels are all designed for 800x600 Aug 01 03:50:23 photoshop erstazi Aug 01 03:50:36 ah ok Aug 01 03:50:39 not bad at all Aug 01 03:50:44 better than I can draw Aug 01 03:50:45 the source pupnik..please.. Aug 01 03:51:00 pretty sure it can be modified to fit Aug 01 03:51:15 sure Aug 01 03:51:18 apt-get source njam Aug 01 03:51:26 i tried that Aug 01 03:51:31 it didn't compile for me. Aug 01 03:51:36 hmmm Aug 01 03:51:38 strange Aug 01 03:52:34 works fine here... just needs smaller levels... http://pupnik.de/njam_1.25-3_armel.deb Aug 01 03:53:13 it's not really the same without the pacman levels and wokka-wokka sound though Aug 01 03:53:35 *cough* "MAME" *cough* Aug 01 03:53:38 pupnik, heh Aug 01 03:54:52 mame Aug 01 03:55:07 wb nomis Aug 01 03:55:10 is that fast on the 800 or 770 Aug 01 03:55:47 i gotta say njam does look fun though. you can edit levels in-game. there's only one more change needed and that's the size of the default levels, and making some new levels for it Aug 01 03:56:45 or keep the level size (probably wiser) and resize all the bitmaps Aug 01 03:57:24 great little project for the tablets... game compiles out of the box Aug 01 03:57:39 unique311: maybe you should set up a gregale scratchbox environment Aug 01 03:58:12 YEEEEEEEEEES Aug 01 03:58:15 it worked Aug 01 03:58:21 right at 6am Aug 01 03:58:28 :D Aug 01 03:58:30 good night Aug 01 03:58:34 cu frob Aug 01 03:58:42 early to bed, early to rise Aug 01 03:59:02 and 6 AM is early to bed! Aug 01 03:59:53 speaking of which i'm out Aug 01 04:00:17 night pupnikafk Aug 01 04:09:13 do i have to make a password for user to use dropbear? Aug 01 04:17:54 rhys, I prefer openssh to dropbear Aug 01 04:18:26 im used to openssh, but it wasnt on any of my repos. Aug 01 04:20:10 oh Aug 01 04:20:18 what tablet do you have? Aug 01 04:20:27 n800 Aug 01 04:20:34 it should be Aug 01 04:20:37 did you look on maemo.org? Aug 01 04:21:50 rhys, do a search on maemo.org for openssh and you want IT2007 Aug 01 04:23:19 kkthen Aug 01 05:28:35 can i change the root password? Aug 01 05:28:41 or will that break things Aug 01 05:29:04 just need something so ssh can login, and i can setup rsa keys and the like so much easier Aug 01 05:33:32 rhys, sorry about that, had to run Aug 01 05:33:43 rhys, did you install becomeroot? Aug 01 05:34:00 also, you can use xterm on your n800 Aug 01 05:34:16 but when you install becomeroot, you can just type: sudo gainroot Aug 01 05:34:38 I suggest changing your passwords by typing: passwd user Aug 01 05:34:42 and passwd root Aug 01 05:34:44 yea. i know all of that. have all of that. ssh on a keyboard is a hellva lot easier though Aug 01 05:34:52 of course Aug 01 05:35:02 I would change the root password Aug 01 05:35:02 right. thats what i was asking, will that break things? Aug 01 05:36:01 the reason they give you the warning is because you can break things, not root Aug 01 05:36:02 yes? no? will changing passwords ruin any softwarE? Aug 01 05:36:05 no Aug 01 05:36:12 just make sure you know what you are doing Aug 01 05:36:22 oh. of course you can break things. thats the power of root. Aug 01 05:36:34 rhys, if you got a grip on *nix commands Aug 01 05:36:47 then you are good Aug 01 05:37:00 erstazi, i just want it so i can ssh into it to set up my RSA keys. oh yes. quite. dont run rm -r /* Aug 01 05:37:03 :) Aug 01 05:37:08 yeah Aug 01 05:37:44 but *definitely* change the root password, its a security issue, all they have to do is ssh root@youripaddress and then type in rootme Aug 01 05:37:48 and they got your system Aug 01 05:38:04 hmm. actually they cant. i just tried that Aug 01 05:38:06 didnt work Aug 01 05:38:16 ah Aug 01 05:38:18 ok Aug 01 05:38:22 check /etc/passwd. theres a hash there Aug 01 05:38:25 yeah Aug 01 05:38:26 even before changing it Aug 01 05:38:48 ohh hell yes. :D keyboard on the nokia! Aug 01 05:38:55 bluetooth? Aug 01 05:39:03 I might get one for my 770, haven't decided yet Aug 01 05:39:18 wifi from this lappy. what i mean is ssh, i get a keyboard in nokias terminal. ty. Aug 01 05:39:20 i want one... Aug 01 05:39:22 a bt keyboard Aug 01 05:39:23 for class Aug 01 05:39:31 ah yeah Aug 01 05:39:53 my lappy is a 8-10lb goliath. Aug 01 05:39:54 the virtual keyboard on the nokia can be a pain but you get use to it Aug 01 05:40:35 aye. for typing its pretty nice. i can IM and type emails, posts and the like rather quickly. Aug 01 05:40:38 well, the reason I have my 770 is because my toshiba's keyboard connector (where it connects to mobo) is screwed so I need something to be mobile Aug 01 05:40:45 the only problem is the funny symbols you use in a terminal Aug 01 05:40:53 yeah Aug 01 05:40:58 I wish I could remap them Aug 01 05:41:02 |, tab, :wq, etc. Aug 01 05:41:02 probably can, but no time to mess with that Aug 01 05:41:09 bah. ssh works. Aug 01 05:42:43 i wana put wesnoth on it Aug 01 05:42:57 and right now i need to restore certian files from my storage card into /home/user Aug 01 05:43:20 I have been doing some scratchbox stuff Aug 01 05:43:23 someone has a browser update on their mirror that if you update to breaks the browser. it flickers when you change windows and wont stop, as well as removing options Aug 01 05:43:36 nice Aug 01 05:43:40 im not sure where its at, because i have so many repos enabled. apt-get might tell me Aug 01 05:43:56 hard to say Aug 01 05:45:02 i had to reflash it, so im restoring certian things. i didnt trust the backup utility Aug 01 05:46:33 rhys, thats what I want to avoid heh Aug 01 05:46:55 hmm. im looking at BT KBs. ~100$ Aug 01 05:46:59 especially desktop environments Aug 01 05:47:04 ebay? Aug 01 05:47:22 craigslist even Aug 01 05:47:22 yepyep Aug 01 05:47:32 what do you mean expecially DEs? Aug 01 05:47:38 hello nhdezoito_adrian Aug 01 05:47:47 crashing Aug 01 05:47:51 or breaking I mean Aug 01 05:47:55 my use is in a chair in a lecture hall. nothing but a little writing desk. Aug 01 05:48:32 ugh, my one year old son is up Aug 01 05:48:38 slapping my head Aug 01 05:48:46 brb Aug 01 05:49:21 poor guy Aug 01 05:49:33 wife couldn't just lay him down in his crib Aug 01 05:49:37 haha Aug 01 05:49:52 he beats me up all the time Aug 01 05:49:57 hi Vertoo Aug 01 05:49:59 ok I am out ttyl Aug 01 05:51:15 for some reason, my vnc viewer can only connect to like half my computers, despite the fact that their setup is identical except my mac. anyone had trouble with that before? Aug 01 05:51:43 hey erstazi Aug 01 05:51:44 <_Monkey> erstazi is rusty on porting to a different arch Aug 01 06:13:40 Anyone using the auto-away feature of Pidgin? Why does it not set me availible again when i'm no longer idle? Aug 01 06:13:56 i wish i could just select which packets i want installed and it does them all at once itead of one at a time over an hour Aug 01 06:14:26 back Aug 01 06:14:46 Vertoo, I never had that problem with vnc Aug 01 06:15:11 are you sure the port is open? Aug 01 06:16:02 ya, they are all local machines and the configguration is the same across the network. Aug 01 06:16:52 hmm Aug 01 06:17:01 Vertoo, thats odd Aug 01 06:17:23 what are the OSes? Aug 01 06:21:26 win xp pro x4 machines. 2 work. and 1 mac os x they are all im the same workgroup and erything. windows firewall is off and has vnc as an exception on all machines. avg firewall has vnc as an exception Aug 01 06:23:32 ok Aug 01 06:23:34 hmmm Aug 01 06:24:02 sounds odd Aug 01 06:27:08 <`0660> Vertoo, have you tried wireshark? Aug 01 06:27:50 nomis, i would think that any vnc program should work the same. Aug 01 06:28:21 Vertoo, have you dried NX? Aug 01 06:28:29 s/dried/tried Aug 01 06:29:07 Vertoo, http://nomachine.com Aug 01 06:30:32 mmmm nx Aug 01 06:30:38 good stuff Aug 01 06:31:06 (yes, coming in the middle of a conversation) Aug 01 06:31:10 heh Aug 01 06:31:16 how are you Luria Aug 01 06:33:45 good morning world Aug 01 06:33:50 what do people use as browser start pages? Aug 01 06:35:32 <`0660> in n800 or in desktop? Aug 01 06:36:26 timeless, depends one what you desire for a start page, but most people grab either google.com or yahoo.com or a custom start page Aug 01 06:36:38 some like igoogle Aug 01 06:36:46 hi adoyle Aug 01 06:36:58 I mean, adoyle_ Aug 01 06:37:01 bloody tab Aug 01 06:44:44 what can you use as tab on the full screen kb? Aug 01 06:46:10 Vertoo, many things, do you mean on the browser or an irc client? Aug 01 06:46:22 on the browser will go through links, anchors and inputs.. Aug 01 06:47:54 hello trashed Aug 01 06:48:08 hey Aug 01 06:48:25 getting lagged to death Aug 01 06:49:52 irc Aug 01 06:50:29 just cause i dot like to type with a stylus Aug 01 06:51:17 sio i use the fullscreen kb and i cant just tab your name that i know of with it Aug 01 06:52:38 there is no tab on it. Aug 01 06:53:39 wait ro, i wonder Aug 01 06:55:05 Is there anything along the lines of a "new 770 user" or new maemo user FAQ? Aug 01 06:56:10 * MobileSim just came across a reference to a herring repository, and has no idea whether to add it or not. Aug 01 06:56:16 <`0660> there is a user manual? :) Aug 01 06:56:50 yeah, those kinds of things. Aug 01 06:57:04 i still have no idea what 'bora' is. except a car. Aug 01 06:57:04 The printed one? Or an updated online one? Aug 01 06:57:32 Stuff for the 800, from what I can tell. Aug 01 06:57:47 Or OS2007 in general. Aug 01 06:58:19 Maemo 3 maybe? Still fairly new myself, so dunno. Aug 01 07:00:48 the wiki has plenty of info, but Aug 01 07:00:59 i'm not sure how arranged it is then. Aug 01 07:01:41 <`0660> MobileSim, the printed one Aug 01 07:02:38 Ah, yeah, that doesn't even mention Herring though, I'm sure. Aug 01 07:03:39 ro/ Aug 01 07:03:40 yes. i suggest checking the wiki. Aug 01 07:06:45 roope, dang, it wont do it in fullscreen kb mode. but i changed the key to make it easier. i just hit enter, then down, then enter again to go back to fullscreen Aug 01 07:07:31 roope, guess thats the easiest it gets till i get a bt kb Aug 01 07:08:05 brb. installed stuff. gonna restart Aug 01 07:11:09 erstazi: i'm trying to figure out how much people would object to use just having google as the default start page Aug 01 07:11:11 hi roope Aug 01 07:12:10 the official start page has the advantages of having very heavy content free/slow loading content with a single link to another similar page Aug 01 07:13:10 timelyx, yeah, I changed the default Nokia_770.html to google.com Aug 01 07:16:22 Hi. Aug 01 07:48:11 how do you save the file and quit the editor in vi? Aug 01 07:50:41 :wq Aug 01 07:54:24 or :x Aug 01 07:54:27 or ZZ Aug 01 08:22:32 good morning Aug 01 08:25:05 very well , if you really want Aug 01 08:31:30 anyone have luck with kismet on n800? Aug 01 08:37:55 Morning, all Aug 01 08:39:57 i was wrong about the dpad, it is* possible to get diagonal motion with it Aug 01 08:40:03 morning Aug 01 08:40:03 <_Monkey> aloha Aug 01 08:40:06 cy-: yes works fine Aug 01 08:40:17 hmm Aug 01 08:40:19 oh sorry, n770 here Aug 01 08:40:28 pupnikafk: :/ damn Aug 01 08:41:21 the xsp doubling scaler looks beautiful. i hope to learn someday how it is interpolating the pixels Aug 01 08:41:26 i mounted my n800 using sshfs outisde of scratchbox in /mnt/n800, now is there a way i could symlink so that this directory is available inside scratchbox ? Aug 01 08:42:12 guardian, symlinks won't work, but mount --bind should Aug 01 08:42:32 well Aug 01 08:42:41 --bind doesn't with sshfs :( Aug 01 08:42:48 it doesn't? Aug 01 08:42:54 ahh, fuse Aug 01 08:43:11 then I guess you just need to mount it elsewhere :/ Aug 01 08:44:37 well in fact doing it right into /scratchbox/users/guardian/home/guardian/n800 worked Aug 01 08:46:17 hi jaffa Aug 01 08:48:14 'morning Aug 01 08:50:21 fullscreen SDL apps need to be modified to suspend and disable xsp pixel doubling when the 'Home' key is pressed Aug 01 08:52:00 is there a deb that installs the n800 theme on the sdk ? Aug 01 08:54:03 you should be able to make one Aug 01 08:54:19 i think the instructions at http://webwizardry.net/~timeless/n800/ should be portable to such a task Aug 01 08:54:44 (they're written for capturing locale files, but they don't really know what they're cpaturing) Aug 01 08:55:13 generally speaking nokia doesn't provide normal debs to the outside world for things that ship as part of the flash Aug 01 08:55:21 http://maemo.org/downloads/product/12pt-14pt-os2007-themes/ Aug 01 08:55:26 geaaru: fwiw, somemone internally complained about the localhost stuff Aug 01 08:55:49 however, they posted a patch to the browser, even though the bug is fundamentally in ICD Aug 01 08:56:02 you can view logs from last week (?) to see my discussion about it Aug 01 08:56:27 * timeless should try to rewrite that patch as a patch against icd and post it Aug 01 08:57:13 ok Aug 01 08:57:30 thx timeless Aug 01 08:57:55 and pupnikafk :) Aug 01 08:58:42 timeless: ok, i see log about browser. ty Aug 01 08:59:06 now i have no problems with the home key while running my xsp sdl app... Aug 01 09:00:56 timeless: i've been getting some 100% cpu usage (and unresponsiveness) in the browser lately (opera engine) Aug 01 09:01:09 flash enabled? Aug 01 09:01:17 flash disabled Aug 01 09:01:17 note that i really can't do much w/ flash Aug 01 09:01:40 i can't say what nokia will do w/ opera, but if you were to bet, it's pretty safe to bet against anything being done to it Aug 01 09:01:43 happened three times this morning. maybe a race condition Aug 01 09:01:57 sorry if someone answered this before - i was massively lagged - Aug 01 09:01:59 it's not about opera, looks like browser ui Aug 01 09:02:20 i should switch to microb engine for a few days and try to reproduce tho Aug 01 09:02:24 disq: ah, that's different, i believe we have -dbg packages up Aug 01 09:02:30 is there an n800 deb for kismet? Aug 01 09:02:38 if we don't, we can fix that Aug 01 09:02:53 otoh, w/o symbols of some sort for opera, things tend to break in most cases Aug 01 09:03:27 hmm Aug 01 09:06:59 Luria: http://kismetwireless.net/code/kismet-svn-devel-n800.deb Aug 01 09:07:10 Luria: no guarantee that it works tho Aug 01 09:07:17 Luria: I am fighting with it now as well :P Aug 01 09:07:39 thanks Aug 01 09:07:44 i wis Aug 01 09:07:49 oops Aug 01 09:08:08 im not even pentesting Aug 01 09:08:51 i just want snr numbers to get flakey connections working Aug 01 09:10:48 does the deb break anything or need dev dependancies? Aug 01 09:15:04 Anyone know if there's a version of Plankton for the 770 anywhere? Aug 01 09:16:36 tigert's blog says 800 only, but I figure someone must've tried to backport it by now. Aug 01 09:24:44 crap - opera is crashing every two minutes Aug 01 09:26:49 Luria: I dunno what the deb pkg requires Aug 01 09:26:56 probably libpcap and wirelesstools or something Aug 01 09:27:21 cy- i expected as much Aug 01 09:27:42 was hesitant to install wireless tools Aug 01 09:28:00 but i guess ill bite the bullet Aug 01 09:29:34 gmm Aug 01 09:30:09 tho maybe after i backup Aug 01 09:30:29 i mean a real backup Aug 01 09:30:45 :-) Aug 01 09:32:30 btw is anyone having problems witj crashing - ie disappearing backgrounds and applets ? Aug 01 09:32:47 hmm Aug 01 09:33:08 that kismet pkg wants to use /media/mmc1 Aug 01 09:33:19 sorry for my typing - on the thumbboard ;-) Aug 01 09:33:46 I am setting up scratchbox using Nokia scripts and intltool is causing head-ache Aug 01 09:33:57 dpkg-build can not find path and if I add PATH =$PATH:/scratchbox/devkits/doctools/bin/ Aug 01 09:34:04 make can not find libs Aug 01 09:35:35 I am trying to compile maemo- mapper Aug 01 09:40:25 re, hi guys. Aug 01 09:41:10 http://www.pocket-lint.co.uk/news/news.phtml/9093/10117/Nokia-invite-hints-music-downloads.phtml would be very cool if the N800 is a fully supported platform for it Aug 01 09:47:13 Luria: Hmm Aug 01 09:47:18 Hard to tell if it is working properly Aug 01 09:54:33 does anybody know if portaudio would compile on maemo Aug 01 10:47:48 inz: http://projects.o-hand.com/libgconf-bridge Aug 01 10:48:01 disq, yeah, I noticed it Aug 01 10:48:24 disq, but there's certain problems with registering gobjects and being a plugin Aug 01 10:48:26 i was actually looking to see if they had any job openings Aug 01 10:48:35 ah, true Aug 01 10:50:33 ugh, what the fuck Aug 01 10:50:42 all of a sudden my sd card won't mount Aug 01 10:51:41 or it will only mount in the mmc1 slot, but I cannot write to it.. I/O error Aug 01 10:53:13 Weird,. Aug 01 10:53:17 How big is the card? Aug 01 10:53:28 all kinds of I/O errors in dmesg Aug 01 10:53:29 1gb Aug 01 10:53:48 I guess I could format it Aug 01 10:53:52 or try to.. Aug 01 10:55:34 I can find how to do that.. heh Aug 01 11:19:50 Test Aug 01 11:45:14 yay Aug 01 11:45:19 formatted it, works now Aug 01 11:45:22 wtf that was wack Aug 01 12:01:52 or not Aug 01 12:01:54 fuck, wtf Aug 01 12:21:29 Aloha! Aug 01 12:21:30 <_Monkey> Guten Tag, sbaturzio! Aug 01 12:22:42 Hejsa Aug 01 12:31:41 man that's fucked up Aug 01 12:31:45 ruined my sd card :/ Aug 01 12:31:51 ohwell, kismet running fine now Aug 01 12:35:02 Following this guide, dpkg-buildpackage: unable to determine host architecture" in the buildpackage step... what am i doing wrong? :( Im getting "http://maemo.org/development/documentation/tutorials/Maemo_2.2_Tutorial.html#Building-applications Aug 01 12:49:31 erstazi - you pinged me earlier (in the middle of the night for me...) Aug 01 13:28:37 hmm: http://www.nseries.com/products/n800/ <- seems nokia doesn't target the german market? this would explain why you cannot find the n800 in shops here Aug 01 13:28:47 ugh. I didn't realize that I'd have to support people who know nothing about linux when I wrote the A2DP support into Kagu. :) Aug 01 13:29:20 a2dp? Aug 01 13:29:21 <_Monkey> a2dp is, like, working here http://www.guardiani.us/index.php/N800_custom_packages#Bluetooth_ALSA and is good. :) If you want a nice frontend GUI for a2dp after following the instructions on that page, ask me about kagu Aug 01 13:29:28 This guy is having trouble with the `cp` command of all things. And then I get yelled at for not having a proper installer. Aug 01 13:29:53 At least I'm trying to help him. I could just ignore the guy. geez. Aug 01 13:30:13 you have my sympathies, although it's worse if you write a browser :) Aug 01 13:30:19 I bet Aug 01 13:30:31 people ask us why the devices reboot or their wifi basestation dies or ... Aug 01 13:30:49 thankfully we haven't had too many reports of siblings getting measles Aug 01 13:31:14 right, because the browser is the internet, after all. :) these people have no business using computers. Aug 01 13:31:31 no, that's not fair. Aug 01 13:32:18 trevarthan: ignore him from now on, don't let it get to you. Aug 01 13:32:21 stick up a lucy sign. advice 10 cents Aug 01 13:32:38 tbf, i bought n800 in Latvia, im sure you can find it in DE :) Aug 01 13:32:46 trevarthan: any word on the new sprites.png unique311 is working on? Aug 01 13:33:00 http://www.amazon.com/Lucys-Advice-Charles-M-Schulz/dp/0689854730 Aug 01 13:33:01 I mean, it's freaking `cp`. All you have to do is copy the line and paste it in xterm. how hard is that? Aug 01 13:33:14 copying from the browser? it's pretty hard Aug 01 13:33:19 depends on how broken selection is Aug 01 13:33:21 (hehe) Aug 01 13:33:23 often it's very hard Aug 01 13:33:25 :| Aug 01 13:33:29 disq: you catch the thread about unique's theme it yesterday? Aug 01 13:33:34 s/it// Aug 01 13:33:34 trevarthan meant: disq: you catch the thread about unique's theme yesterday? Aug 01 13:33:54 last i remember his gmail acct was blocked for some reason Aug 01 13:34:09 timeless: yeah man, get that fixed in the freakin' browser! :) Aug 01 13:34:16 i got the pink pixels and AA bit Aug 01 13:34:28 oh. he sent me a mock up yesterday. Aug 01 13:34:34 did i provide a picture of that problem? Aug 01 13:34:47 he's having trouble with the colorkey concept. Aug 01 13:35:18 mostly because photoshop defaults to anti-aliasing everything, I think. Aug 01 13:35:25 probably Aug 01 13:36:16 colorkeys can be too technical for some people, especially now that we're living in a 32bit RGBA world Aug 01 13:36:52 Yeah, I was a little annoyed that I had to use them. I tried RGBA, but it was just too slow. Aug 01 13:36:53 hopefully he'll get used to it tho Aug 01 13:37:06 i imagine it would be Aug 01 13:37:15 I haven't had to use colorkeys since win98 days Aug 01 13:37:26 half-life 1 engine days here. Aug 01 13:38:34 http://docs.google.com/Doc?id=dhmd4jxt_43htq827 Aug 01 13:44:08 maemo-myth has too many freakin' deps. anyone got a .deb? Aug 01 13:45:07 ah trev, i debianized and compiled libmokoui2 yesterday Aug 01 13:45:17 sweet Aug 01 13:45:29 got a demo app yet? Aug 01 13:45:33 though writing python module/bindings is a totally different issue. asked in gimpnet #pygtk, the channel was idle, then i left Aug 01 13:45:53 trevarthan: the current version of maemo-myth is deprecated a new version is coming Aug 01 13:46:14 didn't put together a demo yet Aug 01 13:46:26 yeah, ok. It's not like there has been a release, so I don't think you can deprecate anything yet. :) Aug 01 13:46:37 good morning people Aug 01 13:46:41 disq: no sample apps? Aug 01 13:46:47 NeoStrider: Good Morning! Aug 01 13:47:09 trevarthan: it's a subclass of GtkContainer. i'm guessing any widget you put on it becomes finger scrollable. Aug 01 13:47:28 that sounds cool Aug 01 13:48:09 hey, btw. Does anyone know if there is a way to detect whether or not our window is in the foreground from python? Aug 01 13:48:17 disq, what this is good for? Aug 01 13:48:25 maybe I just did get it Aug 01 13:48:29 I'd like to enter the extended idle loop when kagu does into the background. Aug 01 13:48:53 NeoStrider: inertial/kinetic scrolling via finger movements. Aug 01 13:49:07 NeoStrider: it's a replacement for hard to use scroll bars. Aug 01 13:49:36 trevarthan: there's an application_top call i should check Aug 01 13:49:43 "it's a replacement for hard to use scroll bars." now we are speaking =-) Aug 01 13:50:24 NeoStrider: if you want a quick (but kinda crappy) example, check out the kagu media player on maemo.org Aug 01 13:50:43 checked, it's not it Aug 01 13:50:48 770 friendly? Aug 01 13:50:57 770 friendly. only tested with one item though. Aug 01 13:51:07 time to do more tests =-) Aug 01 13:51:13 great Aug 01 13:51:13 let us know what you find. Aug 01 13:51:42 disq: any chance it could be a patch to Gtk+ to make *everything* finger scrollable by default? Aug 01 13:51:51 NeoStrider: you might also check out UKMP on maemo.org. They use kinetic scrolling too. Aug 01 13:52:30 Jaffa: not sure. possibly. move gtkcontainer as gtkcontainer_real and rename fingerscrollthingy as gtkcontainer Aug 01 13:52:34 Jaffa: that would be hecka sweet. Aug 01 13:53:00 UKMP didnt worked here... Aug 01 13:53:05 hey I need python! Aug 01 13:53:18 where can I get the debs? Aug 01 13:53:20 you need python2.5 and also pygame Aug 01 13:53:25 yeah. you need python 2.3 for UKMP, python 2.5 for Kagu. Aug 01 13:53:25 pymaemo.garage.maemo.org should do it Aug 01 13:53:34 python2.5? Aug 01 13:53:53 python2.5 is at pymaemo.garage.maemo.org! Aug 01 13:53:56 python2.5? Aug 01 13:53:57 <_Monkey> python2.5 is at pymaemo.garage.maemo.org! Aug 01 13:54:06 python? Aug 01 13:54:07 <_Monkey> python is a real pain in the rear when it comes to unicode. Aug 01 13:54:10 lol Aug 01 13:54:11 lol Aug 01 13:54:22 I remember that conversation Aug 01 13:54:22 hahahhahahha Aug 01 13:54:22 trev, i think that's your quote btw Aug 01 13:54:50 forget python Aug 01 13:54:51 <_Monkey> trevarthan: I forgot python Aug 01 13:54:57 python is at pymaemo.garage.maemo.org! Aug 01 13:55:01 python? Aug 01 13:55:02 <_Monkey> i think python is at pymaemo.garage.maemo.org! Aug 01 13:55:47 _Monkey: don't think, know Aug 01 13:55:48 <_Monkey> disq: sorry... Aug 01 13:56:44 trevarthan: exactly. Doubt it would work in the browser, tho' Aug 01 13:57:26 trevarthan, is it true that either 770 or an n800 cannot use png-24 efficiently and its prefered to use png-8? Aug 01 13:57:28 the browser can be messy depending on how they implemented the panning Aug 01 13:57:33 I would love disq long time if he got that working. :) Aug 01 13:57:36 s/prefered/preferred Aug 01 13:58:02 erstazi: which application are we talking about? Aug 01 13:58:14 i have no intention of patching/compiling gtk+-maemo and trying to get it running on the device :P Aug 01 13:58:21 * NeoStrider is getting on the nerves with those .install Aug 01 13:58:25 trevarthan, any actually, but specifically working on the theme for karu last night Aug 01 13:58:26 disq: jerk Aug 01 13:58:29 lol Aug 01 13:58:58 it's pointless when nokia people are talking about how it's bad to use a different build of gtk and trying to get us synced with upstream for maemo4.0 Aug 01 13:59:09 erstazi: I don't know about other apps, but with kagu you need to be using an RGB png, not an RGBA png. No alpha channel. Aug 01 13:59:11 there is only the .install Aug 01 13:59:16 disq: you could submit it as a Gtk+ compile-time switch :) Aug 01 13:59:17 no debs for me =-( Aug 01 13:59:20 trevarthan, ah I see Aug 01 13:59:21 Then Nokia wouldn't need to fork. Aug 01 13:59:32 trevarthan, thats the issue Aug 01 13:59:35 erstazi: use the colorkey for transparency. Aug 01 13:59:39 ok Aug 01 13:59:59 I will work on it more tonight, that makes life easier, I got work to do Aug 01 14:00:14 i'd prefer getting libmokoui2 known and distributing/supporting it Aug 01 14:00:14 k. thanks! Aug 01 14:00:51 disq: yeah, we need to make some example apps first, then if people love them it'll likely find it's way upstream. Aug 01 14:01:06 gotta get python bindings Aug 01 14:01:20 also, I am going to try to port some things tonight that are on the http://wiki.gp2x.org/wiki/Software_Directory list Aug 01 14:01:24 http://docs.google.com/Doc?id=dhmd4jxt_43htq827 => trevarthan Aug 01 14:01:25 sorry guys no tests here...I dont have wifi here Aug 01 14:01:32 can someone please explain haf to me? Aug 01 14:01:37 we could reimplement it in python but it's kinda unhealthy to fork at this point Aug 01 14:01:45 becasue pupnik (+afk) told me so Aug 01 14:01:47 disq: would it be easier to write a simple example C application first? Send me the .deb for openmokoui, then let me play with it? :) Aug 01 14:01:58 is haf hosted on stage? Aug 01 14:02:09 I just want to see what it can do. you're a C gtk expert, right disq? Aug 01 14:02:46 timeless: what? I'm not sure what you're asking, or what that page is. Aug 01 14:03:08 you asked something about fixing selection,. no? Aug 01 14:03:25 that's my description of how selection or panning or is hard Aug 01 14:03:31 I was mostly joking around. But yeah, it's a little difficult to use. Aug 01 14:03:55 a little is a bit of an understatement Aug 01 14:04:21 new firmware seemed to make it a little easier. but maybe I just got lucky Aug 01 14:04:36 trevarthan: i have a few years of experience with it but i'm no expert :) Aug 01 14:04:41 anyway check your mail Aug 01 14:05:28 disq, i have a simple example of use libmokoui2, if you want, I can send to you. Aug 01 14:05:33 trevarthan/disq: any test app I'd love to play with to give my feedback on. I find UKMP's kinetic scrolling not quite right (and I'm not sure why). Would love to play with an alternative implementation. Aug 01 14:06:07 Jaffa: install kagu. I freely admit that it sucks just as much as UKMP though. Aug 01 14:06:25 trevarthan: i like kagu better :P Aug 01 14:06:27 maybe a little less, as there are no false clicks... not sure Aug 01 14:07:04 my biggest complaint is that kagu gets swapped out sometimes and the scrolling hangs for a bit. that is uber annoying. Aug 01 14:07:16 that's my fault for letting the memory bloat so much though Aug 01 14:08:13 * lardman thinks Python is great! Aug 01 14:08:39 yeah. it's nice. I just wish it didn't use so much ram. Aug 01 14:08:46 trevarthan: I've only got UKMP installed to demo kinetic scrolling to people ;-) Aug 01 14:09:06 It great the way you can go from idea to application so easily Aug 01 14:09:15 Reminds me of OPL on the Psion Aug 01 14:12:11 ok, i've posted https://bugs.maemo.org/attachment.cgi?id=503&action=edit Aug 01 14:12:12 Jaffa: you installing kagu? Aug 01 14:12:21 so people can use "browser" instead of "/usr/bin/browser" Aug 01 14:14:53 timeless, see #55873 Aug 01 14:15:01 Does pygtk allow one to handle mouse/pointer clicks/doubleclicks on a textbox? Aug 01 14:15:11 Hi! if I install OS2007 on the n770, what sdk do i use? maemo 3.1 or 2.2 ? Aug 01 14:15:27 inz: blah Aug 01 14:15:36 ccharles, I would guess 3.0 Aug 01 14:15:45 inz: why are people filing those things in internal? Aug 01 14:15:48 it's open code Aug 01 14:15:48 inz: thanks Aug 01 14:15:56 just that the documentation seems a little sparse on this Aug 01 14:15:59 trevarthan: does Kagu have the inertial scrolling too, now? Aug 01 14:16:39 ccharles: I have seen my game (compiled with sdk 2.2) working on N800s Aug 01 14:16:44 It always has. I think konttori might have gotten the idea from kagu. he just released first. Aug 01 14:16:45 Jaffa: it had it from the start? Aug 01 14:16:48 so I guess SDK 2.2 will do Aug 01 14:17:03 inz: that patch is scary Aug 01 14:17:11 timeless, thanks Aug 01 14:17:12 trevarthan: apologies then! Aug 01 14:17:13 s/seen/heard of/ Aug 01 14:17:14 way too complicated Aug 01 14:17:18 and it has memmove! Aug 01 14:17:23 scary, scary Aug 01 14:17:36 Jaffa: we've got a binary release up on maemo.org though. quick 5 second install. try it. Aug 01 14:17:53 well, 5 minute install if you don't have python2.5 yet. Aug 01 14:18:04 timeless: you said about /usr/bin/browser and just browser Aug 01 14:18:07 there is a diference? Aug 01 14:18:21 yes Aug 01 14:18:24 browser alone won't work Aug 01 14:18:25 s/there is/is there Aug 01 14:18:26 because haf sucks Aug 01 14:18:32 :) Aug 01 14:18:40 inz: your patch is almost certainly bad Aug 01 14:18:42 thats strange Aug 01 14:18:56 when I start my game from the icon, the crashes about 5 seconds later Aug 01 14:19:01 trevarthan: I've gt Python, just no network connection (it appears) Aug 01 14:19:09 using ps -a, I get it listed as /usr/bin/angstron Aug 01 14:19:20 when I start from terminal, it is solid rock Aug 01 14:19:22 Jaffa: ummm... how the hell are you talking to me then? :) Aug 01 14:19:27 timeless, at least it works ;) Aug 01 14:19:29 and ps -a list it as just angstron Aug 01 14:19:35 any idea? Aug 01 14:19:39 inz: hey mine works too, for a smaller domain :) Aug 01 14:20:09 inz: your patch has tabs, one space indentation, and some other unfortunates :( Aug 01 14:20:54 * timeless tries to figure out what the memmoves actually do Aug 01 14:21:12 disq: http://www.pygtk.org/docs/pygtk/class-gtkwindow.html#method-gtkwindow--has-toplevel-focus Aug 01 14:22:01 * NeoStrider wonders if anyone paid atention to what he said... Aug 01 14:22:22 no :) Aug 01 14:22:44 ok =-p Aug 01 14:22:51 inz: so, err. what are you memmoving, all the args? Aug 01 14:22:56 trevarthan: if we're using gtk, then sure :P Aug 01 14:23:13 timeless, yes Aug 01 14:23:17 disq: yeah, I just released we need a window object for that. Aug 01 14:23:24 why? Aug 01 14:23:37 they're all pointers, right? Aug 01 14:24:53 trevarthan: well, no network conn on my N800 - wireless appears to be down. A single dep on python2.5-runtime? I'll copy the deb across Aug 01 14:25:19 Jaffa: isn't python2.5-runtime a meta package? Aug 01 14:25:21 Jaffa: unfortunately not. Aug 01 14:25:26 python? Aug 01 14:25:27 <_Monkey> python is probably at pymaemo.garage.maemo.org! Aug 01 14:25:54 Jaffa: we need python2.5, pygtk, python-dbus, python-osso, python-pygame, python-gobject.. i think that covers it Aug 01 14:26:06 I think I've got most of them. Aug 01 14:26:33 copy over the kagu deb and give it a try then? Aug 01 14:26:48 timeless, the strings need to be copied there so ps shows the right name Aug 01 14:28:37 trevarthan/disq: do I need to run the scanner before the player? Aug 01 14:29:21 Jaffa: the player will take care of things for you, but yeah it'll automatically run the scanner if it's your first run Aug 01 14:29:28 Cool Aug 01 14:29:31 hello all. i'm writing a program and i'd like it to minimize to the sidebar when i press a hardware button. gtk_window_iconify() makes the window disapper, that's right, but its icon does not appear on the sidebar. what do you think? Aug 01 14:30:31 madam: you should use hildon_window and hildon_app classes instead of gtkwindow Aug 01 14:31:53 disq: the window is an instance of HildonWindow, which is-a GtkWindow if i'm right Aug 01 14:31:58 madam: are running it directly or you installed it and you run it from the icon? Aug 01 14:32:34 madam: yes. it could be the service file being missing, or osso not being initialized Aug 01 14:32:49 NeoStrider: it's launched directly from the command prompt Aug 01 14:33:14 disq: had the tought of the same thing I did Aug 01 14:34:28 disq, NeoStrider: other applications like the web browser behave correctly; it's not like osso is not initialized. maybe i should set my program can_hibernate() ? Aug 01 14:35:41 madam: im working on a SDL app that doesnt do "can_hibernate()" and shows up on the taskbar Aug 01 14:35:45 madam: more like, you should call osso_initialize() at startup. after gtk_init and before gtk_main seems like a good place Aug 01 14:35:56 its just a matter of a service file properly configured Aug 01 14:36:24 madam: follow the maemo development tutorials at maemo.org and compare your code :) Aug 01 14:36:34 Does gtk.Entry have its own window? Trying to work out whether I can add a clicked signal to it Aug 01 14:37:20 lardman: there should be a class tree/diagram somewhere in gtk docs. clicked could work, why not just try Aug 01 14:37:44 disq: Good point, can;t atm as at a WinXP box Aug 01 14:37:58 disq: Plus it's not listed in the docs as being a valid signal Aug 01 14:39:47 hi destino Aug 01 14:40:17 destino: =) Aug 01 14:40:24 hi destino Aug 01 14:40:30 disq: Ah, could be a masked signal, will give it a try Aug 01 14:40:42 hi folks Aug 01 14:41:32 lardman: trying a focused signal (not sure if that's the signal's name?) could be better for the purpose though Aug 01 14:44:01 gtg Aug 01 14:44:05 cya fellows Aug 01 14:44:49 disq: I've seen that signal. What i want is to alter the text selection within the textbox depending on whether it's a single or double click, and the cursor location Aug 01 14:45:53 disq: To be exact, I'm editing equations and want to be able to highlight (and then replace) all, or just parts between operators (+-*/ etc.) or brackets depending on the clicks Aug 01 14:47:10 ah Aug 01 14:49:59 disq: minimizing still doesn't work as expected; tried osso_initialize() both before and after gtk_init(). the function returns a valid context. any further idea? Aug 01 14:50:29 does minimizing using the provided minimize button on the top-right work correctly? Aug 01 14:50:36 maybe it's deiconify's fault Aug 01 14:50:49 or iconify rather Aug 01 14:51:14 disq: nope, it doesn't Aug 01 14:51:30 strange Aug 01 14:51:47 disq: maybe i should set an icon for my program? Aug 01 14:52:03 i have no further ideas, i suggest you dive into the maemo tutorial to investigate Aug 01 14:52:28 iconless programs work ok Aug 01 14:52:56 disq: thank you and NeoStrider anyway; hope to meet soon again Aug 01 14:54:38 disq: this is a nice little optimization to aid in multi-tasking: https://www.guardiani.us/projects/kagu/changeset/285 Aug 01 14:55:21 ooh! our first rev after the 1.0.1 roll Aug 01 14:55:37 good idea btw Aug 01 14:55:47 :) yeah. couldn't bring myself to work last night. I'm getting over a bit of burn out. Aug 01 14:56:42 understandable Aug 01 15:01:50 <_Handful_> does anyone knows why for example when trying to install ukmp, I'm not able to click on " open " (after the one click install link is touched) ? and all other one click installs gives me the ability to do it? Is it lack of some dependencie or could be a error on ukmp packages? Aug 01 15:02:25 <_Handful_> *if I try to install from the file it just fails (icon is on the menu) but no real application linked on the .desktop Aug 01 15:02:39 <_Handful_> strange thing : / I will ask this on garage .. Aug 01 15:10:04 _Handful_: it's a configuration problem with the server. probably the mime type is wrong Aug 01 15:10:31 <_Handful_> unm, I imagine that, but I should be able to install from file right? Aug 01 15:10:38 yes Aug 01 15:10:38 <_Handful_> but don't wory I will take a look at it later Aug 01 15:11:02 i don't worry about ukmp. :P Aug 01 15:14:49 <_Handful_> well, I'm just taking a look =) not only at it but also kagu and others =) Aug 01 15:15:24 <_Handful_> I'm quite happy to see these python applications =) Aug 01 15:20:54 dev: any luck with SIP and python? Aug 01 15:21:47 trevarthan: no time yet, had the 0.4.0 release of my UPnP framework yesterday Aug 01 15:22:20 oh, well, congrats on 0.4.0! Aug 01 15:22:28 got a link to the framework? Aug 01 15:22:43 https://coherence.beebits.net Aug 01 15:22:48 thx Aug 01 15:23:40 cool. anyone interested in integrating that with kagu? Aug 01 15:23:57 (I'm not. I can never get UPnP to work for me) Aug 01 15:24:06 (but I know lots of people love it) Aug 01 15:24:28 cool framework Aug 01 15:24:41 trevarthan: it is not that difficult, if you know what to do (as with most of the things) Aug 01 15:25:14 dev: my problem always has and will be the fact that I use MythTV, and I'd need to transcode everything on the fly. Aug 01 15:25:22 well, not for audio. Aug 01 15:25:49 but I usually don't use my n800 for audio at home. I've got mythtv and a big sound system for that. Aug 01 15:26:56 trevarthan: it has a few features, that come quite handy -> https://coherence.beebits.net/wiki/CoherenceMediaRenderer Aug 01 15:27:08 look at the local store thing there Aug 01 15:27:29 <_Handful_> the mythTV upnp server is quite :" temperamental" Aug 01 15:27:42 and UPnP is not just about playing something, controlling is much more fun Aug 01 15:30:06 dev: Coherence does slide shows? That's cool. I'd like a good slide show on my n800. not sure if mythtv publishes my images via UPnP though. Aug 01 15:30:50 the MediaRenderer does the slideshow (on the N800) Aug 01 15:32:00 _Handful_: tell me about it. I have to disable it, otherwise, when I turn my Xbox 360 on, mythbackend's CPU goes through the roof and stays there until I restart it. I think they fixed that after 0.20, but I'm running 0.20. Aug 01 15:32:12 trevarthan: there will be a .deb this evening or tomorrow Aug 01 15:32:16 <_Handful_> yes I know Aug 01 15:32:24 <_Handful_> we have a quite of trouble hacking around mythtv Aug 01 15:32:39 <_Handful_> but did you saw morpheuz works on that? streaming from mythtv/ etc ? Aug 01 15:32:49 they need to rewrite mythtv in python. everyone would be happier. :) Aug 01 15:33:03 _Handful_: yeah. doesn't work too well yet. Aug 01 15:33:23 <_Handful_> yeah, but can be improved with collaboration =) Aug 01 15:33:39 MoRpHeUz: did you ever run the NUV issue by the gmyth guys? Aug 01 15:34:32 trevarthan: I told them about this... Aug 01 15:34:37 _Handful_: I talked to the mythtv devs about gmyth, and they said that the only thing for it is to wait. They're currently working on making it possible to store multiple encodings of a given recording. That'll make the whole gmyth thing easier. Aug 01 15:34:47 trevarthan: hopefully they'll have a look on that... Aug 01 15:35:02 btw, kulve could get the setup working..it was a silly mistake from him... Aug 01 15:35:14 _Handful_: then they can implement frontends that do transcoding on the fly, streaming, etc, and cache everything. Aug 01 15:35:34 trevarthan: my experience with mythtv's devs are that they are a little bit complicated and not well organized (just like their code hehe) Aug 01 15:35:57 yeah. I wouldn't call MythTV a "mess". But it's definitely not clean either. Aug 01 15:36:06 trevarthan: exactly.. Aug 01 15:36:30 trevarthan: they have this plan about doing transcoding on the fly since the beginning of the year. Aug 01 15:36:45 takes like 30 minutes to compile. That's the worst. And you've got to run the same version client as the server. Makes it impossible to develop for in my house because I've only got one server and it's production. Aug 01 15:36:45 * Jaffa hopes the MythTV app for Maemo is suitably open that I could hack in a Freevo backend. Aug 01 15:36:46 but they just talk hehe Aug 01 15:37:23 Jaffa: it's already open...(gmyth, gmyth-streamer and a demo app is on the way) Aug 01 15:37:35 * trevarthan hopes that someone writes a python frontend for mythtv. That would be ideal. Aug 01 15:38:07 I try not to touch C/C++ with a ten foot poll if I can help it. Aug 01 15:38:07 trevarthan: some guys like GreyFoxx, xris are good developers there.. Aug 01 15:38:21 MoRpHeUz: yeah, I'd love to see some protocol documentation - and the website seemed a little confusing (once it's using MokoUiScroll, though, I'll want that app :-)) Aug 01 15:38:22 trevarthan: that's what I tried to do with gmyth-streamer... Aug 01 15:38:25 yeah. I was talking to xris. I think he's the original author. Aug 01 15:38:50 Jaffa: documenting mythtv's protocol is a p* in the a* hehe Aug 01 15:39:05 Jaffa: it's 100% experimenting since mythtv's wiki is too old Aug 01 15:39:26 yes, I got the transcoding working with mencoder Aug 01 15:39:27 trevarthan: xris is the original author of myth-web Aug 01 15:39:38 My guess is that they need to learn how to compartmentalize things better. Aug 01 15:39:40 gmencoder doesn't work, but probably because I have too old gst Aug 01 15:39:55 trevarthan: Chutt is the maintainer ... Aug 01 15:40:00 MoRpHeUz: so it is using the MythTV-proprietary protocol between the N800 client and the server? Aug 01 15:40:01 ah Aug 01 15:40:19 Jaffa: mythtv's protocol is not proprietary.. Aug 01 15:40:40 trevarthan: have you ever take a look on mythtv's source code ? Aug 01 15:40:49 It's proprietary to MythTV and, as you've just said, not documented Aug 01 15:41:02 yeah. A few times. Mostly when I was hacking MythGame back in the 0.19 days though. Aug 01 15:41:08 Jaffa: got your point.. Aug 01 15:41:30 Jaffa: it uses myth's protocol through gmyth...gmyth abstracts this for you Aug 01 15:41:41 I also looked into the xvmc code when I was trying to get bob deint working with HDTV. I gave up. Is horribly b0rked. Aug 01 15:42:02 trevarthan: I tried to help them with some code, but it's really a mess.. Aug 01 15:42:14 MoRpHeUz: But I want to use Maemo-Myth (or whatever it will be called) with a non-Myth backend. gmyth won't do much here, will it, unless it also provides the ability to write a Myth-compatible server Aug 01 15:42:27 (specifically, Freevo) Aug 01 15:42:28 I've also had to go in a few times debugging SQL problems. That's no fun either. Aug 01 15:42:37 trevarthan: exactly...freevo's guys are easier to deal and they want people to help them... Aug 01 15:43:04 Is freevo written in C too? Aug 01 15:43:10 * Jaffa 's had lots of Freevo patches accepted. Very happy with it, and I found MythMusic too painful to stick with MythTV Aug 01 15:43:13 Jaffa: gmyth-streamer is 100% written in python...you can get the idea from there to use on Freevo... Aug 01 15:43:17 trevarthan: nope, you'll love it: Python :) Aug 01 15:43:30 Jaffa: already talked about this with disch (free Aug 01 15:43:34 =/ Aug 01 15:43:38 how does it compare to mythtv? same feature set? what's it missing? Aug 01 15:43:39 Jaffa: freevo's maintainer Aug 01 15:43:48 trevarthan: freevo = 100% python =) Aug 01 15:43:55 MoRpHeUz: Freevo 2's maintainer. I'm not holding my breath for that, TBH :-/ Aug 01 15:44:01 trevarthan: hehe Aug 01 15:44:04 that's the point Aug 01 15:44:24 Jaffa, trevarthan: they are trying to make freevo 2 a lot better than freevo 1 Aug 01 15:44:27 trevarthan: Recording scheduling isn't quite as nice, but it's much less resource intensive IMHO Aug 01 15:44:37 and then it'll be a really "heavy competitor" for mythtv Aug 01 15:44:43 MoRpHeUz: yeah, but it's typical SSS - it's taking forever, hence the restart of the Freevo 1.x branch. Aug 01 15:44:54 Jaffa: it's because they need people Aug 01 15:45:01 Freevo 2's plans look fantastic, but it's slow going due to a lack of hackers. Aug 01 15:45:05 yuck. SDL. Aug 01 15:45:07 they are just a few (3 ??) developers to rewrite almost everything Aug 01 15:45:10 MoRpHeUz: indeed. Aug 01 15:45:17 Jaffa: =) Aug 01 15:45:19 Doesn't Mythtv use QT? Aug 01 15:45:25 trevarthan: yeah Aug 01 15:45:37 seems like QT is a better choice, to me. Aug 01 15:45:53 Actually, GTK would be excellent too, but QT is probably easier to theme. Aug 01 15:45:54 mythtv is a really mess (it works but...): they have a lot of small applications and too much replicated code... Aug 01 15:46:44 * Jaffa would consider giving MythTV another go if there was a much better music playing plugin Aug 01 15:46:52 (Not just UI, but quality) Aug 01 15:47:10 this is why I wrote gmyth-streamer...easy to implement more inputs (it has file, dvd and mythtv), transcoders handles (mencoder and gstreamer actually) and streams everything through http..so it's easy for the n800 to receive the stream Aug 01 15:47:14 is it possible to play the music in the background? Aug 01 15:47:21 Jaffa: I think that's one of mythtv's major problems. It's difficult to develop addons for. Aug 01 15:47:30 while watching images, or something Aug 01 15:47:35 Jaffa: take a look at this http://labs.morpheuz.eng.br/blog/04/04/2007/prison-break-freedom-for-your-videos/ Aug 01 15:47:37 kulve: no. Aug 01 15:47:50 trevarthan: I agree with you Aug 01 15:48:04 trevarthan: too hard to develop addons and more features for mythtv Aug 01 15:48:06 trevarthan: that's the main reason I use xmms for that.. Otherwise mythtv might be the only app needed on my mediabox.. Aug 01 15:48:51 kulve: I like it because it works well with an IR remote. I just wish it wasn't so hard to hack. Aug 01 15:49:09 trevarthan: it happens in part because the mess on the code and in part because of it's maintainer's arrogance Aug 01 15:49:23 Kagu would actually make a really nice replacement for mythmusic, IMO. But I don't see that happening as it's python and myth is C. Aug 01 15:49:53 trevarthan: you can do that =) Aug 01 15:50:13 trevarthan: that project of a mediacenter for xbox is 100% written in python and they have a mythtv plugin Aug 01 15:50:22 you just need to know the protocol Aug 01 15:50:23 yeah, I could run it from mythgame. :) Aug 01 15:50:28 =) Aug 01 15:50:56 hold on, I will be back soon Aug 01 15:52:26 hey Aug 01 15:52:46 can anyone suggest a couple of big name web apps that work w/ microb but not opera (other than the google suite)? Aug 01 15:52:58 does youtube actually work better in microb? Aug 01 15:53:04 * timeless doesn't really use flash sites Aug 01 15:54:39 do I need to be in red pill mode to install screen? Aug 01 15:57:31 MoRpHeUz: sounds great; if gmyth-streamer (you need a better name ;-)) supports different backends, I'll happily do the Freevo one when some of the test apps are available. Presumably the Maemo client doesn't need to talk to the backend (MythTV/Freevo), it just queries gmyth-streamer about available media? Aug 01 15:58:52 MoRpHeUz: hmm, no - I'm wrong? http://gmyth.sf.net/ suggests that the Maemo frontend talks directly to MythTV & gmyth-streamer (what's gst-plugins-mythtv?) Aug 01 16:05:42 timeless: http://www.netvibes.com/ IIRC Aug 01 16:06:41 Jaffa: last time I checked, gmyth-streamer still has some major problems. Usually you can only stream once or it will throw an exception or hang mplayer open. Did you get that fixed MoRpHeUz? Aug 01 16:07:20 Jaffa: it's basically just a thin wrapper around mencoder. It start mencoder, manages the process, and streams mencoder's STDOUT over HTTP. Aug 01 16:08:41 trevarthan: I see. Aug 01 16:08:56 * Jaffa was thinking of writing something similar :) Aug 01 16:10:05 it's a great idea. The problem is that mencoder doesn't want to die sometimes. And telling mencoder not to print status messages on stdout doesn't work for some codecs (i.e. divx). So, basically, mencoder kinda sucks. Aug 01 16:11:10 The other problem is that gmyth doesn't strip out all the NUV crap from the stream, so at best you get skipping sometimes. At worst, it just won't play on the n800. The end result is usually codec dependant. Aug 01 16:11:53 For example, by default, gmyth streams mpeg1. :) why? because mpeg1 appears to be the least fragile and the n800 will actually stream it. Aug 01 16:12:02 hardy ideal though. Aug 01 16:12:09 s/hardy/hardly/ Aug 01 16:12:10 trevarthan meant: hardly ideal though. Aug 01 16:13:18 for now, I just use 770encode.pl and have done with it. streaming is too problematic at the moment, mostly because mythtv and mencoder are buggy. Aug 01 16:13:39 Indeed. Aug 01 16:14:59 mpeg1 has less state info Aug 01 16:15:07 or statefulness Aug 01 16:23:21 what about a 2gb mmc card and n770, working fine? Aug 01 16:23:34 min3 is Aug 01 16:23:36 kingston i think Aug 01 16:23:59 i have a 2gb card, some trouble Aug 01 16:23:59 MPEG1 should also be lower CPU intensive to encode (compared with DivX et al) Aug 01 16:24:06 btw, hi pupnik ;) Aug 01 16:24:44 servus Aug 01 16:25:26 i think it's awesome that mplayer can handle even xvid now Aug 01 16:25:32 but i love to travle around the city, spying for wlans Aug 01 16:25:41 hehe Aug 01 16:26:34 dsniff portable for 770? Aug 01 16:28:11 hr, yes it is, but "missing install" Aug 01 16:28:13 :( Aug 01 16:33:08 Hey, just got my nokia n800! what next :D Aug 01 16:33:41 play mahjong Aug 01 16:33:53 lol Aug 01 16:33:56 flash it Aug 01 16:33:56 <_Monkey> Firmware and associated utilities are available from http://tablets-dev.nokia.com Aug 01 16:34:02 :-) How to upgrade my software ? Aug 01 16:34:02 syntux: Install Kagu! Aug 01 16:34:13 kagu meh Aug 01 16:35:35 install canola? Aug 01 16:35:41 darn, key locked and I can't unlock it lol Aug 01 16:35:46 first install "xterm" Aug 01 16:35:47 =) Aug 01 16:35:59 canola is better Aug 01 16:36:00 syntux: http://www.internettablettalk.com/forums/showpost.php?p=60205&postcount=5 Aug 01 16:36:11 syntux: defaults to 12345, I think Aug 01 16:36:30 Luria: I'm hurt. Aug 01 16:36:31 kagu is a great way to kill your battery ;-) Aug 01 16:36:54 doesn't canola kill it just as fast? Aug 01 16:37:04 oh i like the inertial scrolling Aug 01 16:37:20 I don't care. you're dead to me. Aug 01 16:37:24 and kagu shows more promise Aug 01 16:37:28 but Aug 01 16:37:35 syntux: http://maemo.org/community/wiki/howto_flashlatestnokiaimagewithlinux/ Aug 01 16:37:56 lovely Aug 01 16:38:00 thank you folks, you rocks! Aug 01 16:38:09 syntux: http://maemo.org/community/wiki/applicationrepositories/ Aug 01 16:38:14 when i want to use the n800 as an mp3 player Aug 01 16:38:30 syntux: http://maemo.org/community/wiki/applicationmanagerredpillmode/ Aug 01 16:38:38 you will find that the dac is surpassed by 40 euro mp3 players Aug 01 16:38:56 battery life is king, and ive found kagu more cpu intensive Aug 01 16:39:09 well not 100% sure about that, but s/n on my 770 is somewhere around 60 db Aug 01 16:39:25 pupnik, no doubt. Aug 01 16:39:37 Luria: that's a valid argument. How much better is canola? I ask because they both use SDL behind the scenes (which sucks with battery) Aug 01 16:39:39 gah one sec Aug 01 16:39:52 syntux: http://maemo.org/community/wiki/codenames/ Aug 01 16:41:00 much better Aug 01 16:41:05 on bt keyboard Aug 01 16:41:42 couldnt hold a conversation with the stylus :-) Aug 01 16:42:12 yeah. I like the thumb kb better. now, finish telling me how much my baby sucks and why? Aug 01 16:42:15 :) Aug 01 16:43:29 trevarthan, i know they both are sdl based, and i havent done any testing, but anecdotally, i find the cpu and battery draw higher on kagu than canola... and im not a canola fan Aug 01 16:43:44 mostly observed by running both in the back ground Aug 01 16:44:09 and how quickly my machine shuts off at 2 bars remaining :-) Aug 01 16:44:55 other thing about kagu - and perhaps i am an idiot - how do i get it to play all tracks on random? or something other than the selected album Aug 01 16:45:47 guys, is it safe to flash it ? Aug 01 16:46:18 and please, dont think i hate kagu... i havent run canola since - but i have gone back to the inbuilt player :-/ Aug 01 16:46:34 syntux, its necessary :-) Aug 01 16:46:45 just have a full charge Aug 01 16:47:02 syntux: it's safe Aug 01 16:47:11 and do the windows auto install, its painless Aug 01 16:47:21 and the backup/restore things works nicely even though it doesn't restore the apps you have installed Aug 01 16:47:23 I'm doing it from linux. Aug 01 16:47:26 Luria: playlist functionality is in progress-ish. I think disq is interested in doing the random stuff. Aug 01 16:47:35 syntux: yeah, linux is the way :) Aug 01 16:47:57 syntux, its a bit of a pita Aug 01 16:48:05 heh Aug 01 16:48:16 ok, I'm downloading the flasher. Aug 01 16:48:20 Luria: as far as background'ing the process goes, I just noticed that problem yesterday and I committed a patch today that will reduce CPU usage dramatically when kagu is in the background: https://www.guardiani.us/projects/kagu/changeset/285 Aug 01 16:48:23 trevarthan, i know its a work in progress :-) Aug 01 16:48:24 syntux: after flashing it's in the same state as when you bought it. Except newert sw Aug 01 16:49:00 trevarthan, was it still trying to refresh/rerender? Aug 01 16:49:20 Luria: Yes. It was still rendering everything in the background. Any other gripes? I'm here to listen. Aug 01 16:49:32 those are the big ones Aug 01 16:50:00 OK. Let me add a ticket for Random play mode. Maybe disq will be interested in jumping on that one. Aug 01 16:50:58 err... also... Aug 01 16:51:16 the music scanner... its not a happy camper Aug 01 16:51:34 oh yeah? what's the problem? Aug 01 16:52:00 Here's the random playmode ticket: https://www.guardiani.us/projects/kagu/ticket/7 Aug 01 16:52:04 especially didnt like my non latin char sets. the german survived, but the hebrew had to go Aug 01 16:52:26 also blew up on the dl attempt Aug 01 16:53:05 Yeah. I'm not sure what to do about that. Python's urllib sucks with unicode and other non-ascii charsets. We probably need to replace urllib with something usable. Aug 01 16:53:18 not entirely you i assume - why nokia, with all its l10n experience couldnt give maemo proper unicode and rtl Aug 01 16:53:26 is totally beyond me Aug 01 16:53:32 it's python's fault, not nokia. Aug 01 16:53:48 why the world isn't running unicode right now, I don't know. Aug 01 16:54:01 I'll make a ticket for that too and see what I can do. Aug 01 16:54:15 still... giving me the char lookup for the unicode character is NOT unicode support Aug 01 16:55:07 trevarthan, since the german eventually scanned, but the hebrew didnt the rtl might be fatal, while nonlatin just buggy Aug 01 16:55:39 also, ran 5-10 attempts to scan 230 songs before deleting Aug 01 16:55:55 each took about 5 minutes Aug 01 16:56:04 I don't know if you're a programmer, but if you are, and you find a patch that works, let me know. Aug 01 16:56:34 i have been. if i have some time, illtry to do something Aug 01 16:57:37 ticket for that one too: https://www.guardiani.us/projects/kagu/ticket/8 Aug 01 16:58:30 Luria: thanks for the feedback. Let me know if you notice anything else. Aug 01 16:59:32 np' Aug 01 17:05:51 trevarthan, http://api.pocoo.org/pocoo.utils.uri-pysrc.html Aug 01 17:06:02 any help? Aug 01 17:06:03 <_Monkey> any help is, like, welcome Aug 01 17:06:15 lol. Aug 01 17:06:20 Is there anything setup wise you have to do to a clean n800 to get the moz based browser to resolve it's dependences? Aug 01 17:06:28 forget any help Aug 01 17:06:29 <_Monkey> trevarthan: I forgot any help Aug 01 17:06:43 im not sure at what point the code is failing Aug 01 17:07:51 should give a backtrace in the xterm Aug 01 17:08:08 that func looks like it might help, btw. Aug 01 17:08:15 np Aug 01 17:09:12 I don't have any non-ascii chars in my id3 tags ( I stripped them all when I was using UKMP)... Aug 01 17:09:48 so you are asking me where to dl foreign music, eh? Aug 01 17:09:53 :-) Aug 01 17:10:00 not really. Aug 01 17:10:11 let me write a patch and you can tell me if it works for you. Aug 01 17:10:18 i was kidding :-) Aug 01 17:11:24 BTW, do you get a line number in the backtrace? Just to make sure it's failing where I think it is? Aug 01 17:17:32 i might not be able to reproduce this until i put something more complicated than german back on my n800 Aug 01 17:18:09 ugh Aug 01 17:18:40 well, tell you what: do that sometime, then send me the backtrace. we'll go from there, ok? Aug 01 17:19:37 ill do what i can Aug 01 17:19:42 :-) Aug 01 17:20:43 Jaffa, trevarthan: sorry, I'm back Aug 01 17:21:00 trevarthan: the problem about streaming more than 1 media is that mythtv does not support it.. Aug 01 17:21:14 Luria: I updated the ticket with that URL. I'll need a backtrace to determine if it's worth porting though. Doesn't look like a drop in as we're doing the part after the '?', and that code seems to be doing the part before the '?'. Aug 01 17:21:26 Jaffa: the client just makes an http query...then gmyth-streamer uses gmyth to get data from mythtv backend Aug 01 17:23:41 let me try to reproduce it later and grab the output Aug 01 17:27:45 i gotta run run Aug 01 17:27:49 bye all Aug 01 17:28:46 Hey all. My coworker just got a nokia tablet. There's no ping, the docs indicate that busybox should be able to provide it. I tried symlinking it, but it said applet not found. Am I close to doing it the right way? Am I missing something really obvious? Aug 01 17:29:17 I don't know much detail about this particular equipment/os. It's my first exposure to it. Aug 01 17:29:56 MoRpHeUz: Excellent! So an appropriate amount of hackery to gmyth-streamer to support Freevo would mean MaemoMyth wouldn't need to change? Aug 01 17:30:03 cannonball: busybox needs to be reconfigure/recompiled to provide ping Aug 01 17:30:24 cannonball: my device seems to have ping though.. Aug 01 17:30:37 cannonball: did you upgrade the firmware? Aug 01 17:31:14 He says no. Has not upgraded anything. He's going to the wiki and going to look for things along that line. Aug 01 17:31:30 He said something about another repository as well. Aug 01 17:31:38 So I guess he's going to install the iputils package. Aug 01 17:32:09 first thing to do is to update the newest firmware Aug 01 17:32:55 because the "flashing" will erase everything there Aug 01 17:32:55 Jaffa: exactly Aug 01 17:34:58 Jaffa: that's the way I tought about it...but as I'm no on that team any more, I can't assure that things will happen like this, but I still talk with the guys about this subject..so if you want to send any suggestion for me, it will be welcome! =P Aug 01 17:35:03 kulve: apparently he has the latest :-) Came with it, so that's cool at least. Aug 01 17:35:29 26-8? Aug 01 17:35:30 <_Monkey> 18 Aug 01 17:35:49 trevarthan, you want an ok button? Aug 01 17:35:51 _Monkey: 18? Aug 01 17:35:52 <_Monkey> kulve: wish i knew Aug 01 17:36:00 _Monkey: I knew that! Aug 01 17:36:01 <_Monkey> kulve: i'm not following you... Aug 01 17:36:02 kulve: 3.2006.49-2 Aug 01 17:36:19 cannonball: so, he has 770? Aug 01 17:36:26 yes. Aug 01 17:36:35 N800: sure. Aug 01 17:36:41 cannonball: remember to always tell if you are talking about 770 or n800.. :) Aug 01 17:36:59 if you want, feel free to do button down images too. I can always code those in. Aug 01 17:37:03 cvs commit -m "Always say model" Aug 01 17:37:31 Linus woudl be so disappointed... Aug 01 17:38:24 the other dude knows the settings to use to get transparency going. so i'm just going to end up putting together a layout and he'll do the rest.. Aug 01 17:38:39 cool. Aug 01 17:46:21 trevarthan, can you show me an example of a button drop down image? Aug 01 17:46:43 i have no idea as to what this is.. Aug 01 17:48:13 Click a button anywhere on a normal desktop system. See how it looks like it has been pressed? The image is shifted to the right and down by a pixel or so. Sometimes, with rounded images, you can change the shadows to make it look like it has been pressed. That's what I mean. Aug 01 17:48:54 I think canola might have really obvious button down images. Don't those round buttons get pushed in when you touch them? Aug 01 17:49:06 could be wrong.... Aug 01 17:49:13 been a while since I used canola. Aug 01 17:50:49 trevarthan: no, we don't Aug 01 17:50:50 yet Aug 01 17:50:52 :-P Aug 01 17:51:18 tried canola once Aug 01 17:52:22 so for every icons button on the sprites.png you need an alternative. Aug 01 17:52:32 that shows it was pressed Aug 01 17:52:45 yeah, that's the idea. Aug 01 17:53:07 yes Aug 01 17:53:08 :-) Aug 01 17:53:37 or you use Edje (EDC) files and specify a new state that can be just the image with a position offset, new color, alpha.... Aug 01 17:53:44 really easy :-) Aug 01 17:55:19 you can also modify the original image by code, but i would only recommend that if you are trying to make something compatible with lots of themes Aug 01 18:02:47 neyahahah Finishing flashing... done Aug 01 18:04:59 k-s[WORK]: yeah, we're still using pygame. no edje here. Aug 01 18:05:16 Howdy all.. Aug 01 18:05:41 trevarthan: too bad :-P Aug 01 18:06:01 :) we can't all be cool like the canola kids. Aug 01 18:06:07 trevarthan: you should really try it, I told you :-) Aug 01 18:06:34 I have a Nokia N800 running IT OS 2007 1.2006.47-20 and having trouble with the browser and loading https sites.. Aug 01 18:06:41 trevarthan: it's not being cool as canola kids, but as the E kids... we're following their infra :-) Aug 01 18:07:17 Anyone have a moment to chat with me? Aug 01 18:07:17 btw, how does the edje event loop work? Is it like SDL where you need to add sleeps to not chew up 100% cpu? Or is it like gtk where all of that is hidden from you and everything is event driven? Aug 01 18:07:19 trevarthan: kenne and I wrote this tutorial, may be of help: http://wiki.enlightenment.org/index.php/Creating_Edje_User_Interfaces Aug 01 18:07:31 trevarthan: it's like GTK Aug 01 18:07:40 which works better with Nokia N800, Gizmo or Skype ? Aug 01 18:07:42 inz: sure, but do you need to move all the other things? it just feels like you're running around in a loop, when i'd hope that a single memmove would be sufficient Aug 01 18:07:52 akjohn: what sites? Aug 01 18:08:00 timeless, Any site I try.. Aug 01 18:08:02 and which browser? Aug 01 18:08:04 syntux either or Aug 01 18:08:08 pick one and name it? Aug 01 18:08:08 trevarthan: Edje is just a "smart object" of Evas (the canvas), the main loop stuff is done by Ecore (something along the lines of GLib) Aug 01 18:08:09 both are really good Aug 01 18:08:13 timeless, The normal browser. Aug 01 18:08:22 https://sf.net ? Aug 01 18:08:29 and have you tried rebooting your device? Aug 01 18:08:42 timeless, I checked the time and it was off. I reset it and rebooted it and it is doing the same thing still.. Aug 01 18:08:44 k-s[WORK]: how do you get a specific frame rate then? Aug 01 18:08:46 trevarthan: it's more optimized for graphics, with the "animator" avoiding you to have multiple timers for animation Aug 01 18:08:55 trevarthan: you set the animator frame rate Aug 01 18:09:03 ah. Aug 01 18:09:05 :- Aug 01 18:09:19 it's doable with g_timeout_add() and some code, sure Aug 01 18:09:26 How does the speed compare to pygame? (blits, specifically, but font rendering too) Aug 01 18:09:46 trevarthan: blits are much faster, I wrote the 16bpp to be like that :-) Aug 01 18:09:59 timeless, I get a "Unable to complete secure transaction" Aug 01 18:10:14 trevarthan: fonts are a bit slower, because it render the fonts directly and not an image that is then blitted... but it saves lots of memory Aug 01 18:10:48 k-s[WORK]: one of my biggest problems with kagu is font rendering. I'm having to pre-render and cache things, which is bloating my ram usage a lot. Aug 01 18:11:03 trevarthan: I have binary packages for n800, you can try my demos... I'll package kenne kinetics list example soon Aug 01 18:11:16 trevarthan: I know that, we do that with canola Aug 01 18:11:24 sorry, we did Aug 01 18:11:49 akjohn: have you done anything funny to your device? Aug 01 18:11:57 e.g. deleting all certificates from control panel :) Aug 01 18:12:02 So what's the big motivation for edje? Just getting a few more blits per cycle out of the hardware? Aug 01 18:12:04 trevarthan: that don't show too much, just if you use soft shadow you'd notice any difference Aug 01 18:12:15 timeless, Um... I dont think so.. Aug 01 18:12:36 I mean, you can abstract everything yourself, so having a gtk like event loop doesn't seem like that big of an advantage.... Aug 01 18:12:37 timeless, I did look in there and all the CA certs where there, but there are not any user certs.. Aug 01 18:12:53 there normally aren't any user certs, that's fine Aug 01 18:13:07 * timeless configures a wifi network for an n800 Aug 01 18:13:15 trevarthan: as I told you, Evas is the canvas (something along pygame.sprite.Group), Edje is a tool to read description and resources from a text file, store resources on one file... like a theme, but with basic scripting Aug 01 18:13:32 * timeless gives up and uses 3g Aug 01 18:13:46 ok, i get: Secure connnection Aug 01 18:13:48 trevarthan: Evas manages objects in layers, try to minimize repaint area, etc... Aug 01 18:13:53 This site has sent an untrusted certificate Aug 01 18:13:55 trevarthan: Ecore manages timers, loop, ... Aug 01 18:14:00 k-s[WORK]: so the big motivating factor is that you wanted a decent theme engine and didn't want to write your own? Aug 01 18:14:03 * Certificate name is invalid or does not match the name of the site Aug 01 18:14:08 Aug 01 18:14:14 trevarthan: Ecore_Evas manages connection with window manager, expose events from X, etc... Aug 01 18:14:16 i take it you're getting a different error :( Aug 01 18:14:22 timeless, I noticed it this morning on gmail after my N800 crashed last night.. Aug 01 18:14:29 timeless, Yep.. Aug 01 18:14:35 * timeless nods Aug 01 18:14:53 trevarthan: Edje is something like CSS + JavaScript... it define states, transitions and events to trigger transitions, together with a basic scripting and layout engine Aug 01 18:14:54 months ago i had problems where certman flaked out Aug 01 18:15:01 but i haven't seen them recently Aug 01 18:15:21 timeless, I get the "site has sent an untrusted cert", then I click continue Aug 01 18:15:26 trevarthan: on top of those, we also have ETK or EWL, widget sets like GTK... but that you can blend with your eye candy Aug 01 18:15:40 um, ok, then what? Aug 01 18:15:46 timeless, Then I get the message again, and I click continue, Aug 01 18:16:06 how much data do you have on your device? :) Aug 01 18:16:07 k-s[WORK]: oh... so it comes with it's own widgets? Do you use them? Or have you decided to make your own? Aug 01 18:16:09 trevarthan: ETK and EWL can be mixed with the canvas, for example you can fade in your dialog to ask for password, then slide it... move buttons, do whatever you want Aug 01 18:16:09 timeless, Then I get "Unable to complete secure transaction" then I click ok and nothing happens.. Aug 01 18:16:16 * timeless nods Aug 01 18:16:26 timeless, Lets see what df says.. Aug 01 18:16:34 trevarthan: use ETK so far... it's almost like GTK, almost the same API Aug 01 18:16:41 i think if i were you, i'd backup my data (not necessarily w/ backup) and reflash :) Aug 01 18:16:58 timeless, / is 54% /tmp is 14% Aug 01 18:16:59 but you're welcome to try browser.garage.maemo.org to see if the other browser works better Aug 01 18:17:14 it's pretty unlikely that it would, but who knows :) Aug 01 18:17:25 trevarthan: you can set your own theme, per application but also per widget... (no big thing here) Aug 01 18:17:26 timeless, Dang.. I need this for maemo-mapper for a trip tomorrow.. Aug 01 18:17:28 k-s[WORK]: sounds like a big time investment just to develop for the n800. Aug 01 18:17:46 trevarthan: what? our time? Aug 01 18:17:52 no, mine Aug 01 18:17:53 timeless, I guess I could try flashing to the newest and try to put everything back togerther again.. Aug 01 18:18:07 trevarthan: e.org guys did the hard job Aug 01 18:18:07 timeless, *together Aug 01 18:18:17 trevarthan: I already wrote the difficult bits of optimization Aug 01 18:18:18 It does sound like a really nice engine though. Aug 01 18:18:29 trevarthan: what's left now is just write your app to use it :-P Aug 01 18:18:35 52% used in / here, so you haven't really added too much Aug 01 18:18:46 How much RAM does it use with python loaded and nothing else? Aug 01 18:19:08 trevarthan: sure it take some time playing with Evas/Edje to get it right and use correct... but it pays in the end Aug 01 18:19:12 timeless, I have added some things, like maemo-mapper, xterm and things.. Aug 01 18:19:41 most of maemomapper is or should be on mmc Aug 01 18:19:51 there are only a few files / gconf bits Aug 01 18:19:56 trevarthan: which app? you need to check... usually it's less than if you did it with PyGame... it reference count images it open, use the same data, etc Aug 01 18:20:01 migrating it is tolerable Aug 01 18:20:06 xterm is reinstallable Aug 01 18:20:37 timeless, Yeah.. Just a bummer to have to put everything back in and what not.. Aug 01 18:20:41 trevarthan: raster, the main author, is careful with those things... although e17 is bling bling, it uses less memory than XFCE Aug 01 18:20:48 * timeless nods Aug 01 18:20:55 try the other browser Aug 01 18:20:58 k-s[WORK]: sounds really good. Too bad I'd have to rewrite everything. Aug 01 18:21:07 as i said, it's unlikely to help, but unless you're paying for bandwidth it shouldn't hurt Aug 01 18:21:09 timeless, I dont have the other browser.. Aug 01 18:21:19 timeless, Eh? Aug 01 18:21:40 timeless, I thought I needed the latest firmware to load the new browser.. Aug 01 18:21:42 http://browse.garage.maemo.org/ Aug 01 18:21:49 oh, you're using 3.2007 Aug 01 18:21:50 ? Aug 01 18:22:09 well, if you're feeling adventurous, http://webwizardry.net/~timeless/n800/ :) Aug 01 18:22:16 timeless, 1.2006.47-20 Aug 01 18:22:21 eww Aug 01 18:22:23 trevarthan: for canola we had to rewrite just the UI, we designed it to be split in Model-View-Controller, so jut views are being rewritten Aug 01 18:22:31 k-s[WORK]: I might start a branch of kagu rewritten for edje/avas/etk/place-your-stupid-acronym-here. (you really need a single name for all of that, BTW) Aug 01 18:22:38 that's um, like the original shipping release Aug 01 18:22:42 trevarthan: actually we'll rewrite controllers too... but just to move them to python (== simpler, easier to maintain) Aug 01 18:22:51 <_Handful_> use EFL Aug 01 18:22:53 most devices shipped w/ a slightly later one Aug 01 18:22:56 trevarthan: single name is EFL Aug 01 18:23:06 timeless, I am just from the "if aint broke" thought process Aug 01 18:23:08 stands for "Enlightenment Foundation Libraries" :-P Aug 01 18:23:16 oh, me too Aug 01 18:23:30 k-s[WORK]: yeah, if I do the rewrite, I'll probably make the music playing portion a separate backend process and communicate with the frontend via DBUS or sockets. Aug 01 18:23:30 but the devices i have that are like that have collected a lot more cobwebs than yours has :) Aug 01 18:23:53 timeless, What do you mean? Aug 01 18:23:57 trevarthan: ah, MoRpHeUz and lsobral can be handy here... they're writing such backend Aug 01 18:24:05 k-s[WORK]: disq has been wanting to write a GTK frontend anyway, so that would let us experiment with different frontends. Aug 01 18:24:07 i have a couple of devices i don't reflash Aug 01 18:24:40 timeless, How many do you have??!? Aug 01 18:24:49 trevarthan: if he alredy know GTK, it may be faster to write at first glance, but don't be fooled Aug 01 18:24:53 but i'm sure i collected more pieces Aug 01 18:25:11 k-s[WORK]: frankly man, I really wish you canola guys would just open source that crap so I didn't have to do all of this extra work just to support A2DP and play with some tiny extra features. That sucks. You're all a bunch of jerks. Aug 01 18:25:13 akjohn: 1 770, a proto n800 w/ 72% used on / Aug 01 18:25:20 timeless, Ah.. Aug 01 18:25:22 and 2 n800s Aug 01 18:25:25 trevarthan: so do I, believe me Aug 01 18:25:32 the proto and 770 are devices i've used heavily Aug 01 18:25:44 hahahahah Aug 01 18:25:52 timeless, I see.. Nice to have a budget for a gadgets.. Aug 01 18:25:53 the others get reflashed probably weekly Aug 01 18:26:03 <_Handful_> hehehe that's what I call being straight to the point =) Aug 01 18:26:06 * _Handful_ is a jerk Aug 01 18:26:07 akjohn: nah, working for nokia doesn't quite do that Aug 01 18:26:08 <_Handful_> =) Aug 01 18:26:15 trevarthan: why don't you use mplayer and write a small app outside canola to change ~/.mplayer/config Aug 01 18:26:15 ? Aug 01 18:26:17 <_Handful_> a2dp works on canola =) Aug 01 18:26:20 oh well, at least you're providing us with cool tools to make things with. But then you're like "here's the new version of canola, so all your hard work is completely useless now" Aug 01 18:26:26 <_Handful_> just use mplayer like you did on kogu =) Aug 01 18:26:30 timeless, Oh.. I guess that helps.. Aug 01 18:26:40 akjohn: i'm paid to work on the web browser Aug 01 18:26:41 <_Handful_> trevarthan: I don't think this.. as you said.. people that likes to hack Aug 01 18:26:47 <_Handful_> would play with the other things.. Aug 01 18:26:53 so problems w/ it interest me professionally (if nothing else) Aug 01 18:27:05 <_Handful_> freedom of choice =) Aug 01 18:27:21 timeless, Well. I guess I need to backup and flash then eh? Can I just snag my home directory over to a flash card and then flash the device with the newest firmware? Aug 01 18:27:28 trevarthan: next canola version will be in Python, so you can try to hack it even if it's not open source... ;-) Aug 01 18:27:33 but I hope it will Aug 01 18:27:38 be Aug 01 18:27:43 <_Handful_> but we fully understand your point =) we think that same.. but managers don't =) Aug 01 18:27:46 What justification would there be for it *not* being OSS? Aug 01 18:28:00 Jaffa: managers not getting it Aug 01 18:28:02 _Handful_: if you're telling me to work around the fact that canola is closed source, then you obviously don't understand open source at all. Aug 01 18:28:04 _Handful_: think of the features even the current Canola would have if it was OSS. Aug 01 18:28:12 Jaffa: we're trying hard, it's at the legal dept right now Aug 01 18:28:39 you'll want to grab the gconf directory tree too Aug 01 18:28:40 <_Handful_> trevarthan: I didn't said I understand it.. but =) we are fighting to open it, because we know how it works and how much the application could benefit from being open source Aug 01 18:28:51 but it's basically gconf and ~ Aug 01 18:28:54 <_Handful_> and even more ... how it would be easier to know good people interested in the software.. =) Aug 01 18:28:56 Jaffa: me too... even I, as a developer, have things that I'd like different and can implement, but I cannot release this work Aug 01 18:29:10 timeless, Where is the gconf tree and how do I restore it cleanly? Aug 01 18:29:12 in my case, i want ~, gconf, and apt/dpkg info Aug 01 18:29:37 gconftool/gconftool-2 are the proper ways Aug 01 18:29:47 but you'd need to read a man page or something for info about how to do it right Aug 01 18:29:53 <_Handful_> we are making pressure, because we understand the possibilities... but if they (managers) think other ways... or have other plans... it's complicated.. Aug 01 18:29:56 Jaffa: we could have almost all webservices inside canola, like proper flickr, audioscrobbler, ... Aug 01 18:30:03 _Handful_: let me know when that happens. But until then, you give me no choice but to write my own competing app. And it's not like either one of us are really getting paid for it (I know you guys are funded a bit, so not so true on your end), so it just doesn't make any sense. Aug 01 18:30:36 trevarthan: I already wrote a competing software too! Aug 01 18:30:37 <_Handful_> trevarthan: that's the point.. I wrote about it. I even don't think as competition because we are trying to do the same : make maemo great Aug 01 18:30:41 to my own paid software! Aug 01 18:30:46 timeless, _sigh_ Okay.. I do not really have time to mess around with this, so hopefully maemo-mapper keeps going.. Aug 01 18:30:49 :D Aug 01 18:30:55 maemo mapper iirc uses gconf Aug 01 18:30:58 <_Handful_> and you and konttori made us pretty happy when developed in python Aug 01 18:31:02 it's called catota! check my playground: http://blog.gustavobarbieri.com.br/2007/04/19/new-maemo-player-catota/ Aug 01 18:31:14 <_Handful_> and we would be even more happy if this would grow even more =) Aug 01 18:31:16 it's /var/lib/gconf fwiw Aug 01 18:31:24 and you can /try/ to just archive the tree Aug 01 18:31:28 although it's not technically legal Aug 01 18:31:34 k-s[WORK]: _Handful_: if you can't open source canola, I think you should focus on other aspects of the system and stop competing with the open source players. They'll mature on their own, but it's harmful to have Canola out there undermining them. Aug 01 18:31:37 timeless, Legal? What do you mean? Aug 01 18:31:48 the api says you're supposed to use gconf apis Aug 01 18:32:04 instead of just going behind the daemon and touching its files Aug 01 18:32:08 timeless, Oh I see. I would use the term "proper" instead of "legal" Aug 01 18:32:14 why does dspmp3sink suck for catota? Aug 01 18:32:17 <_Handful_> and even with canola not being open, at least all the components, and really hard and important work is on the publics repositories .. so we are releasing the important bits for delovepers like you and others to also benefit (if the code is good of course.. ) Aug 01 18:32:18 trevarthan: we can't. we don't work on it because we want, but because we're paid to do so Aug 01 18:32:35 trevarthan: and we were born _FIRST_ :-D Aug 01 18:32:44 :) Aug 01 18:32:47 <_Handful_> yes.. and more: I don't think we are mining the player... but if you think so Aug 01 18:32:49 <_Handful_> for example Aug 01 18:32:50 <_Monkey> for example is 0x00 a valid value for a Java bytecode? Aug 01 18:32:52 pupnik: at that time? it was mplayer fault! Aug 01 18:33:05 pupnik: does it still suck? I think mplayer were fixed Aug 01 18:33:14 <_Handful_> a guy sent me a though comment about not being able to use last.fm and that he would never user canola.. Aug 01 18:33:40 :) probably disq. Aug 01 18:33:40 k-s[WORK]: just reading from your blog Aug 01 18:33:52 <_Handful_> so I really think that we are not mining... we are in the end helping improving it.. Aug 01 18:34:10 timeless, Do you really think flashing it will correct the problem? Aug 01 18:34:12 <_Handful_> - not in the best way of course... =) Aug 01 18:34:13 <_Handful_> ehehhe Aug 01 18:34:24 <_Handful_> no.. it wasn't disq =) Aug 01 18:34:31 <_Handful_> as " slow " Aug 01 18:34:35 akjohn: not many choices Aug 01 18:34:38 it pretty much has to Aug 01 18:34:42 the sites aren't broken Aug 01 18:34:50 it's very unlikely your file system is corrupt Aug 01 18:34:56 well, perhaps the competition motivates. But I think it's harmful too, cause you guys are getting paid and I'm not. :) Makes me want to pack up and go home, you know? Aug 01 18:35:06 and even if it is, you're still better off w/ a backup and finding out sooner Aug 01 18:35:25 my guess is certman is corrupt Aug 01 18:35:25 <_Handful_> I know... this sucks.. but look what you guys made in such small time... Aug 01 18:35:29 <_Handful_> it's incredible Aug 01 18:35:36 although i don't think we ever really figured out how/why that happens Aug 01 18:35:52 trevarthan: I know, but your work is important for us... Aug 01 18:36:01 i'd probably move to either 3.2007 or 4.2007. but my proto is i think 2.2007 :) Aug 01 18:36:11 <_Handful_> I think is important for maemo... Aug 01 18:36:23 trevarthan: like chenca and I always proposed using Python, you proved to our boss that it's possible Aug 01 18:36:24 timeless, Ah.. Well I guess I will start trawling the wiki for back and flash guides.. I was thinking to go to the latest so I could use the mozilla browser.. Aug 01 18:36:36 * timeless nods Aug 01 18:36:48 timeless, Do you have a link to a backup and flash guide handy? Aug 01 18:36:56 i happen to use the mozilla browser on both 4 and 3, so i'm not picky about that Aug 01 18:37:08 4 has the advantage of trying to correct touchpad problems Aug 01 18:37:13 s/pad/screen/ Aug 01 18:37:13 timeless meant: 4 has the advantage of trying to correct touchscreen problems Aug 01 18:37:23 but some people have complained that 4 hurts things Aug 01 18:37:34 timeless, You mean when you use the finger keyboard? Aug 01 18:37:42 timeless, Cause I use that a ton.. Aug 01 18:37:58 timeless, And it so annoys me when applications interact with it differently. Aug 01 18:38:03 if you mean the small keyboard Aug 01 18:38:16 (vkb, not fkb) Aug 01 18:38:17 timeless, No I mean the big keyboard for finger typing.. Aug 01 18:38:38 trevarthan: k-s[WORK] mentioned a media backend...I'm working on it with lsobral ... =) Aug 01 18:38:47 the touchscreen problems were generally afaiu limited to stylus/fingernail input Aug 01 18:38:56 if you have problems using thumbs, that's not something i'm aware of Aug 01 18:39:03 but, i'm starving Aug 01 18:39:08 and my food choices are dwindling Aug 01 18:39:21 timeless, All right.. Thanks for the help.. Go get something to eat eh? Aug 01 18:39:43 k-s[WORK]: so we're like an idea farm to you. :) a proof of concept application. I'm not sure how I feel about that. I suppose it makes Canola better in the long run, which, if I want to use Canola (and I did originally), helps me in a round about sort of way. Aug 01 18:39:54 <_Handful_> hei Aug 01 18:40:04 It's like open source work flow without the open source. Aug 01 18:40:08 :) Aug 01 18:40:09 <_Handful_> I don't think is that trevarthan, I think is like user's need not idea farm =) Aug 01 18:41:02 trevarthan: not much an idea farm, but as one that get things done first Aug 01 18:41:16 <_Handful_> because we actually had bold plans for canola since the beginning.. (actually that was the motivation to go efl now) now we needed a infra to implement our ideas in a fast way Aug 01 18:41:19 idea of python was born more than a year before Aug 01 18:41:41 <_Handful_> imagine yourself using sdl without pygame... it's a slow and pain process : / Aug 01 18:41:47 I dunno. I get it. I just don't like it very much. And it sounds like you don't like it much either. But it sounds like we're stuck with it. Aug 01 18:42:04 <_Handful_> yeah.. we for SURE don't like it.. believes us Aug 01 18:42:06 trevarthan: yep Aug 01 18:42:11 which repos are safe to use ? Aug 01 18:42:15 <_Handful_> what we can do is : try to release most of the componets that we can Aug 01 18:42:24 trevarthan: we tried to keep things as free as possible Aug 01 18:42:40 timeless, Did you take off yet? Aug 01 18:42:46 trevarthan: EFL is BSD, I could let our manager tell me "make it in house and change the license", but we didn't Aug 01 18:43:08 developers need to eat too Aug 01 18:43:14 libdmapsharing was released by andrunko as LGPL Aug 01 18:43:18 <_Handful_> pupnik: a lot =) lol Aug 01 18:43:29 Nah.. Devs can run on sode alone right? Aug 01 18:43:33 *soda Aug 01 18:43:37 <_Handful_> hehehe Aug 01 18:43:40 <_Handful_> I wish... =) Aug 01 18:44:13 So, how good is the backup app at getting you back in shape after a firmware rev? Aug 01 18:44:15 <_Handful_> I could run on Fazer chocolate Aug 01 18:44:21 k-s[WORK]: I think I want to benefit as large of a user base as possible though, and it sounds like EFL is huge and difficult to port. Are there any other well known applications using it right now? Aug 01 18:44:58 trevarthan: E itself, but it's in C Aug 01 18:45:17 trevarthan: you have doxygen docs, some texts on the platform overview Aug 01 18:48:41 A large part of me feels like if I use EFL I'll just be supporting Canola and it's license. :) And that kagu will be forever in Canola's shadow. And if I restrict Kagu to the n800, then it might indeed be forever in Canola's shadow. Aug 01 18:48:55 did that hit the 255 char limit? I can't tell. Aug 01 18:49:17 trevarthan: and that tutorial I told you Aug 01 18:49:53 trevarthan: ? Aug 01 18:50:01 what? Aug 01 18:50:07 I'm not sure what you're asking. Aug 01 18:50:47 <_Handful_> I think you should not worry about us Aug 01 18:51:04 I guess folks missed my backup question... Aug 01 18:51:09 <_Handful_> better you should only look, and see if we released something that was not available that is worth using =) Aug 01 18:51:22 Anyone have any experience with the backup app? Aug 01 18:51:32 akjohn: vague questino Aug 01 18:51:48 pupnik, Hmm.. Not sure how I could be more clear. Aug 01 18:51:50 _Handful_: yeah. I guess that means that unless I really need the performance, EFL doesn't really make much sense for kagu. Aug 01 18:51:55 trevarthan, you are still being ask to join the darkside Aug 01 18:51:57 <_Handful_> so it will never be on the shadow.. and being free. make's you faster than us Aug 01 18:52:06 <_Handful_> because we have other projects.. Aug 01 18:52:08 akjohn: it saves certain things and not others Aug 01 18:52:19 <_Handful_> I think it's not performance.. I'm a UI guy Aug 01 18:52:27 _Handful_: I might really need the performance. I'm not saying I don't. But switching just because it's there isn't a good decision. Aug 01 18:52:29 <_Handful_> I like the choice because it's so much faster to create rich ui Aug 01 18:52:35 Is there anything that I need to backup outside of what the backup application backs up before reving my firmware? Aug 01 18:52:36 3 icons down 8 to go Aug 01 18:52:51 <_Handful_> I wouldn't ever switch because of performance.. it's about speed for doing great rich ui Aug 01 18:52:51 pupnik, Hows that? Aug 01 18:53:21 <_Handful_> and even better... you can actually make the ui team do a lot of the boring work for the developers.. Aug 01 18:53:22 akjohn, i reccommend you back up the things you want to keep that the backup application does not backup. Aug 01 18:53:52 pupnik, I agree, but sadly I have no idea what those things might be.. Aug 01 18:54:44 _Handful_: I'm not really all that interested in a great rich UI. I'm more interested in dead-simple and ease of use. I'm not sure if EFL would make that more difficult or less difficult. Aug 01 18:54:59 The backup application saves and restores user data stored in ~/MyDocs (by default) and setting directories and files in /etc/osso-af-init/gconf-dir (a link to GConf database /var/lib/gconf), /etc/osso-af-init/locale, and /etc/bluetooth/name. The application can be configured to back up other locations and files as well by using custom configuration files. Aug 01 18:55:13 For all data that is not normally backed up, the so-called locations configuration is used. Aug 01 18:55:18 The locations configuration paths must not overlap with the documents path. Aug 01 18:55:24 The locations configuration allows the applications to install a configuration file with a list of files and directories that must be included in the backup. The configuration file must be installed into the /etc/osso-backup/applications directory and named .conf. The file must consist of simple XML format. The following example illustrates the example_libosso.conf configuration file: Aug 01 18:55:35 _Handful_: I'm also interested in portability. And I think EFL rules that out. Aug 01 18:56:06 trevarthan: why? Aug 01 18:56:34 trevarthan: we have it working on macos too, and win32 is not far (almost finished, using direct3d) Aug 01 18:56:36 Why does it rule it out? EFL + python bindings isn't widely available on anything but maemo yet. Aug 01 18:58:15 I think the correct approach for kagu right now is to separate the backend from the frontend and continue developing using pygame for now, but leave the door open for GTK and EFL. Aug 01 18:58:51 And the longer I wait to do that, the harder it will be, so we should probably make that a priority. Aug 01 18:59:07 akjohn: http://www.internettablettalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7488&highlight=backup+restore Aug 01 18:59:17 pupnik, Ah! Thanks! Aug 01 18:59:40 trevarthan: have at look at catota, I have engines split and you can grow on it Aug 01 19:00:05 catota? Aug 01 19:00:55 trevarthan: http://blog.gustavobarbieri.com.br/2007/04/19/new-maemo-player-catota/ Aug 01 19:01:14 trevarthan: just need some update regarding gmyth-streamer parameters... Aug 01 19:01:29 looks like it's a frontend, basically? In GTK? with support for multiple backends? Aug 01 19:05:34 trevarthan: yep Aug 01 19:05:47 trevarthan: with multipe player engines and sources Aug 01 19:05:57 trevarthan: I have few sources, like the file chooser Aug 01 19:06:07 trevarthan: maybe you can add a playlist there, dunno Aug 01 19:06:28 trevarthan: it was born as a clever hack to allow me experiment with mplayer without using command line Aug 01 19:07:26 hello Aug 01 19:07:34 Hi all, when I try to play 'Road to Ruin' (the sample audio clip) in my N800 it says 'Unable to perform operation. Try again'. Aug 01 19:07:50 I've rebooted and the behavior is the same. Aug 01 19:08:00 Well I've power cycled. Aug 01 19:08:23 k-s[WORK], horizontal kinetic scrolling is in git ... there is a ctor karg 'horizontal' that you must set to True Aug 01 19:09:29 does anybody have maemo installed on a computer? Aug 01 19:09:43 kenne: thanks Aug 01 19:11:26 trevarthan: is there any work planned on improving kagu performance? Aug 01 19:11:36 I like the hildon ui and was wondering if someone had it installed on their computer also Aug 01 19:11:38 I haven't had a chance to look at the code, so I can't offer any specific comments, though Aug 01 19:14:20 MoRpHeUz: are there any catota packages? It looks pretty darn nice. Aug 01 19:15:01 MoRpHeUz: I'm stuck using only windows machines until I get all the parts for my new computer, so building from svn ain't happening for me Aug 01 19:15:02 hmm, free movies and films for all http://www.archive.org/details/moviesandfilms Aug 01 19:15:28 procto: I think that it's just from svn, right k-s[WORK] ? Aug 01 19:16:29 procto: no, just SVN Aug 01 19:16:41 oh well Aug 01 19:16:53 procto: feel free to continue, I can give you every copyright if you want Aug 01 19:17:09 code is clean, simple Aug 01 19:17:26 procto: why procto ? =P hehe Aug 01 19:17:30 k-s[WORK]: one of the main thing that's appealing to me about it, is the ability to use mplayer to play upnp stuff Aug 01 19:18:21 procto: you can write any source you want Aug 01 19:18:37 I'm looking at the code Aug 01 19:18:39 it really is good Aug 01 19:18:50 I so often see python code that looks like C without curly braces Aug 01 19:19:00 sp moce wjem tjat osm Aug 01 19:19:07 I mean, so nice when that isn't the case Aug 01 19:20:57 procto: not my code, believe me :-) Aug 01 19:21:19 ehehe Aug 01 19:21:27 although some examples of edje/evas are more like bash script than anything else Aug 01 19:21:32 too small and simple Aug 01 19:22:23 while I'm a big fan of EFL, I think it's overkill for most things Aug 01 19:22:34 the evas youtube is nice. keep making videos of cool things - helps promote the nokias Aug 01 19:22:37 I think Catota has just the right interface for its type of app. I'm very impressed Aug 01 19:22:42 procto: yes. lots. what aspect of performance are you curious about? Aug 01 19:22:56 <_Handful_> pupnik: that's the goal =) Aug 01 19:23:00 pupnik: yep! Aug 01 19:23:15 trevarthan: the "everything is slow" aspect. Scanning I understand, but it takes over 15 seconds to load an 80 song playlist Aug 01 19:23:19 I didn't time it exactly Aug 01 19:23:34 yeah, that's a long playlist. Aug 01 19:23:39 I'll work on that. Aug 01 19:23:53 most of mine are 12 songs or less. Aug 01 19:24:08 but what is it doing when it's loading the playlist? like I said, I haven't looked at the code Aug 01 19:24:24 Shouldn't it only be doing something like reading an xml file? Aug 01 19:24:31 and dumping it into the UI? Aug 01 19:24:37 procto: It's allocating a surface for each item in the scroll widget. That's surprisingly slow. Aug 01 19:24:43 ah Aug 01 19:24:44 I see Aug 01 19:25:23 I only got my n800 2 weeks ago, and I don't have any linux computers to develop on at the moment (main computer's a laptop, and waiting on asus to send me a replacement for a video card that BURST INTO FLAME) Aug 01 19:25:27 I'll see if I can change it to not allocate a surface, but instead blit everything on the fly. I've been meaning to do that for a while now. Aug 01 19:25:27 trevarthan: ooooouch! Aug 01 19:25:31 I'm itching to code something :> Aug 01 19:25:33 trevarthan: please don't do it Aug 01 19:25:44 trevarthan: keep surface for the N visible items + 2 spare Aug 01 19:26:00 k-s[WORK]: that might not work well with kinetic scrolling Aug 01 19:26:01 trevarthan: cycle those (wrap) Aug 01 19:26:02 yeah, that's a good idea. Aug 01 19:26:11 procto: it does Aug 01 19:26:13 trevarthan: how about actually only having a single widget? Aug 01 19:26:15 i.e. Aug 01 19:26:20 procto: kenne have a video showing that Aug 01 19:26:23 like one huge button (I'm not 100% familiar with the API) Aug 01 19:26:38 with selection identified by scroll position? Aug 01 19:26:42 procto: he don't have widgets, but simple SDL/PyGame surfaces... Aug 01 19:26:43 a bit hacky, but might be faster Aug 01 19:27:00 right, so it handles a bunch of surfaces, right? Aug 01 19:27:02 procto: if I do it k-s[WORK]'s way, the load time will go way down. I can optimize further from there. Aug 01 19:27:07 procto: right Aug 01 19:27:20 so I'm thinking you can have a single surface, with text on it Aug 01 19:27:21 trevarthan: please do, we do that in canola and works fast Aug 01 19:27:26 so only one surface is handled Aug 01 19:27:31 and you're just moving it up and down Aug 01 19:27:38 procto: and when you move it one item up? Aug 01 19:27:39 they are widgets, actually, but they're virtual. They're not like GTK widgets or anything. But they are their own objects. Aug 01 19:27:59 procto: you'd have to recreate it... horrible, managing 10-20 items are not slow Aug 01 19:28:04 k-s[WORK]: the whole thing is larger than the screen. So you can move it up and down Aug 01 19:28:18 I'm looking for an RSS reader for the n800 that will grab the full version of the pages excerpted in an RSS feed. Anybody know of such an app? Thanks. Aug 01 19:31:04 k-s[WORK]: I've been wondering if a linked list would be better for the scroll widget than a normal python list too. Then I could have a pointer to the viewport's top edge and not have to walk the entire widget item list every time I render. Aug 01 19:31:41 trevarthan: python list is vector but with smart implementation, it's fast if you append() Aug 01 19:31:51 why can't you have a pointer with the normal list? Aug 01 19:32:30 hmmm... I suppose I just need to access it by index. I've been looping it. Aug 01 19:32:38 guys, whats the default root@nokia password?, trying to connect via SSH Aug 01 19:33:08 trevarthan: no, use iterators (for element in list) Aug 01 19:33:23 trevarthan: that's not slow, possible something else Aug 01 19:33:33 k-s[WORK]: why iterators? Aug 01 19:33:55 trevarthan: iterators are optimized to do iterations over sequences or any objects Aug 01 19:34:02 trevarthan: list iterators are fast Aug 01 19:34:23 k-s[WORK]: you sure they aren't just fancy interfaces to the normal looping constructs? Aug 01 19:34:44 trevarthan: yes, but it's the fastest way Aug 01 19:35:19 if you do "for i in xrange(len(list)): list[i]" it's slower Aug 01 19:36:24 got any documentation to that? I've never seen that claim. Aug 01 19:36:35 some, 1) http://www.python.org/doc/essays/list2str.html Aug 01 19:37:20 2) http://wiki.python.org/moin/PythonSpeed/PerformanceTips Aug 01 19:37:29 hope it helps Aug 01 19:38:00 yeah. thanks. Aug 01 19:39:02 of course, pygame is almost always the bottleneck in practice (according to religious use of cProfiler), but I do have a few places where I could improve python calculations. (mostly in the scroll widget itself) Aug 01 19:39:29 if that endgaget device were the successor i'd buy it in a heartbeat. the keyboard gives you plenty of buttons - only the dpad is worrisome Aug 01 19:40:22 but if it is low-resistance (i.e. not a hard click) it's a win Aug 01 19:40:46 pupnik: a keyboard is the last thing I want on the thing. For real work, I have an external keyboard that I usually leave at work. For just carrying it around, the stylus and my thumbs are more than good enough. Aug 01 19:40:55 keboard = lots of bulk for nothing Aug 01 19:41:05 for stand-up texting with thumbs Aug 01 19:41:22 woah Aug 01 19:41:27 for right-hand side buttons for games without alienating the buziness people Aug 01 19:41:32 now i know where all my storage has gon Aug 01 19:41:33 e Aug 01 19:41:34 trevarthan: you have to reduce usage of blit Aug 01 19:41:42 trevarthan: do you have anything to manage your objects? Aug 01 19:41:46 just did a backup of my n800 - 176MB! Aug 01 19:41:49 trevarthan: like what need to be repainted? Aug 01 19:41:52 normally about 30MB Aug 01 19:42:29 http://blog.gustavobarbieri.com.br/2007/04/03/pygame-smart-group-and-sprite-implementations/ Aug 01 19:42:30 k-s[WORK]: no, not yet. I thought about that this morning. Only a few regions of the screen need to be repainted, but I'm currently repainting everything all the time. Aug 01 19:42:43 trevarthan: this points to my code Aug 01 19:42:49 it will be useful for you Aug 01 19:42:50 what the hell have i installed which has filled up /home/user to that extent... Aug 01 19:43:09 k-s[WORK]: thanks! Aug 01 19:43:53 milhouse: du -h Aug 01 19:44:02 k-s[WORK]: are you gustavo barbieri? Aug 01 19:44:08 yeah: /home/user/.osso_rss_feed_reader Aug 01 19:44:09 n00b alert - Just got a 770 and was wondering if anyone had made - look into making it a Bluetooth Audio Gateway? Aug 01 19:44:10 just curious, since the handle doesn't match the name Aug 01 19:44:15 it's huge Aug 01 19:44:22 and i've only got about 6 feeds setup Aug 01 19:44:37 151MB in that directory alone Aug 01 19:44:45 procto: yep Aug 01 19:44:49 NoOneNo: like, audio input -> bluetooth output? Aug 01 19:44:49 sigh... RSS Feed Reader - what a sack of shit Aug 01 19:45:04 more like bluetooth input for audio output Aug 01 19:45:24 NoOneNo: ah. what's the application for that? Aug 01 19:45:27 milhouse: Is there a better one available? Aug 01 19:45:30 basically to have a bluetooth phone pump out call/voice data to the Nokia for it to pump out audio Aug 01 19:45:43 k-s[WORK]: thanks for that moin python performance tips link. looks like they updated it a lot since the last time I looked. Aug 01 19:45:49 jjazz: I believe there might be Aug 01 19:45:50 if you were to mount the 770 as a stereo/gps/bluetooth gateway for a car Aug 01 19:45:52 I forgot some of those things Aug 01 19:45:59 NoOneNo: so you're only interested in the headset profile, not A2DP? Aug 01 19:46:01 milhouse: If you find it, please do report back. I'm interested. Aug 01 19:46:07 correct Aug 01 19:46:07 going to optimize some of my python :> Aug 01 19:46:09 jjazz: can't recall it now, but there are alternatives and they would sturggle to be worse than what Nokia ship Aug 01 19:46:37 I use rssfwd.com as my rss reader Aug 01 19:46:38 milhouse: I'm particularly interested in something that prefetches the pages referred to in feeds that only come with excerpts. Aug 01 19:46:42 forwards everything to my gmail Aug 01 19:46:48 (I'd like to read those pages on the subway) Aug 01 19:46:59 you can create a special gmail account for it Aug 01 19:47:02 sort them into labels Aug 01 19:47:03 if you want Aug 01 19:47:08 jjazz: the unfortunate thing is the stock feed reader integrates quite nicely with the home page, but it's so buggy it's effectively useless for any serious use (and now i find it's filling up the whole of my internal memory) Aug 01 19:47:35 milhouse: Yeah, and I've had my feeds disappear on me a couple times too. Aug 01 19:47:41 NoOneNo: there's no current work being done with that right now, but we do have A2DP support in some apps. The Bluetooth ALSA project provides a headset profile software implementation <-> ALSA gateway. You can get a binary package for maemo here: http://www.guardiani.us/index.php/N800_custom_packages#Bluetooth_ALSA Aug 01 19:47:55 hope that didn't get cut off by the 255 char limit.... Aug 01 19:48:07 thanks Aug 01 19:48:16 was about to reflash to verify some bugs, i'll avoid adding any new feeds in future. Aug 01 19:48:16 did it end in _ALAS ? Aug 01 19:48:28 NoOneNo: Yes. so after you've got that installed, it's just a matter of... Aug 01 19:49:15 configuring bluetooth alsa to connect to the phone and play through alsa. Aug 01 19:49:45 what native playback rates doe n770 support for audio samples? Aug 01 19:49:57 I will definately look into it, thanks for the heads-up Aug 01 19:50:03 does the sound backend do resampling in hardware or software? Aug 01 19:50:18 NoOneNo: you'll probably need either red pill mode or to be root and use `dpkg -i ...` to install those packages. I screwed up the packaging a bit and need to fix it. Aug 01 19:50:35 they work fine though. Aug 01 19:50:56 you just can't click them from the browser and install them directly without turning on red pill mode. Aug 01 19:53:11 Necessity is the mother of python scripts Aug 01 19:53:23 Anyone have experience using the Maemo SDK under VMWare? Aug 01 19:55:03 yes Aug 01 19:55:28 it's too bad the n800 doesn't have a line-in jack. Then I could use it as a stereo A2DP adapter for my desktop while I'm at work. Aug 01 19:55:40 pupnik: how was your experience? Aug 01 19:55:45 pupnik: does it work? Aug 01 19:56:11 my USB ports are fried, so I'm going to be developing at home. Then transferring built packages to work Aug 01 19:56:17 where I'll be transferring them to the device Aug 01 19:56:19 or maybe uploading them Aug 01 19:56:23 and downloading to the device Aug 01 19:56:28 but you are able to stream into the n800 via ad2p now? How CPU intensive would the headset profile be though? it can be at a much lower bit rate Aug 01 19:57:03 tired of my computer making a noise everytime someone says N800 Aug 01 19:57:06 also, do you know if people have had success with this package on the 770, (my 770 is 3 days old so I really don't know to much yet) Aug 01 19:57:14 it worked procto, just took up a lot of unneded space for me Aug 01 19:57:21 ah, k Aug 01 19:57:22 NoOneNo: AFAIK, A2DP is a one way outbound profile. I'm not sure if Bluetooth ALSA has the ability to act as an A2DP sink (like a headset does). Aug 01 19:57:53 NoOneNo: not sure if it works on the 770. probably though. Aug 01 19:58:24 * k-s[WORK] is away: Gone away for now. Aug 01 19:58:33 NoOneNo: headsetd (the headset profile daemon) is a bit less resource intensive than a2dpd, I think. Aug 01 19:58:57 but I've never tried it on the n800, just on linux desktops. Aug 01 19:59:27 No open source linux SIP phones for the n800 yet, so I haven't had a reason to try my BT mono headsets. Aug 01 20:13:51 maemo does need a multitouch picture viewer Aug 01 20:14:10 so i have an emergency subway map Aug 01 20:14:43 or in case i have to go to some godforsaken place in the outer boroughs Aug 01 20:15:37 hola Aug 01 20:15:38 <_Monkey> niihau, Shurik Aug 01 20:15:56 tupo tapu Aug 01 20:16:16 okay, so who's got 8 gig SD in n800? Aug 01 20:16:30 I just got refunded for the destroyed one... so now I'm thinking Aug 01 20:17:37 Has anyone managed to make use of the serial port on the N800 or N770? Aug 01 20:17:55 tablet has a serial port? Aug 01 20:18:04 http://maemo.org/community/wiki/BluetoothHeadset?highlight=%2528headset%2529 Aug 01 20:18:16 well, other then usb Aug 01 20:18:30 though they are talking about a bluetooth headset for the 770 they mention that the alsa plugin will not work Aug 01 20:18:49 do you think its accurate, I'm probably still going to try, just a little disappointing Aug 01 20:20:01 I guess that's what the pinout is on the PCB .. Aug 01 20:20:05 Shurik, which 8gb did it destroy? Aug 01 20:20:16 Patriot Aug 01 20:20:31 Erm, well, the pin contacts. It looks a lot like the Nokia data cable connection style. Aug 01 20:20:40 im on the fence between buying a kingston and waiting for the overpriced sandisk offerings Aug 01 20:21:13 think it will make a difference? Aug 01 20:21:18 i didnt even know they made sdhc cards Aug 01 20:21:44 yeah Aug 01 20:22:00 well, newegg.com is great, but I'm thinking where else can I get SD from Aug 01 20:22:09 because they might not refund me a second card :) Aug 01 20:22:18 when n800 toasts it Aug 01 20:22:47 i was going to make an exception and buy in store Aug 01 20:22:56 *gasp* Aug 01 20:23:34 what, paying tax+rent surcharge or that there are b&m stores that sell then Aug 01 20:23:38 what, paying tax+rent surcharge or that there are b&m stores that sell then Aug 01 20:23:44 NoOneNo: that page gives you an excellent explanation for why the n800 doesn't have native headset and a2dp profiles. yes. btsco is the "old" way of doing bluetooth alsa. Aug 01 20:23:45 crap Aug 01 20:24:35 NoOneNo: The page they link to: http://bluetooth-alsa.sourceforge.net/build.html Is what you're downloading if you use those packages I sent you the link to. I just took that code, compiled it, and packaged it. Aug 01 20:24:36 is there the possibility of bt headset (with mic) on the horizon? Aug 01 20:25:40 Luria: application specific? Yes. In general for the n800 (i.e. built in to the OS)? I have no idea, but I'd say probably not. Aug 01 20:26:03 no, i meant a maemo stack Aug 01 20:26:06 shame Aug 01 20:26:10 Let's put it this way: I haven't read anything about it in the maemo stack. Aug 01 20:26:19 nothing current anyway. Aug 01 20:26:32 almost as nonsensical as the unicode support Aug 01 20:26:59 anyone know offhand if microb has rtl support? Aug 01 20:27:19 Luria: there is a very good reason why bluetooth audio is difficult on maemo. It's a hardware issue. You have to do it in software, and that requires ALSA unless you write your own code. Aug 01 20:28:53 They would either have to switch all apps off of gstreamer and move to alsa, or they would have to rewrite bluetooth-alsa in gstreamer, or provide alsa GST sinks. And they'd need software versions of all the DSP codecs too. It's a big problem. Aug 01 20:29:34 silly design, then Aug 01 20:29:44 but still silly Aug 01 20:29:46 But hopefully we'll start seeing BT support directly in applications soon. Aug 01 20:29:54 ITOS has an alsa backend - so why do see... configure: error: No linkable libasound was found Aug 01 20:30:44 pupnik: dunno. you got the dev packages installed? Aug 01 20:30:48 if they arent going to give us that, they could at least sell the nokia headphones in the us :-) Aug 01 20:31:01 i see nothing alsa or asound in my apt-cache search Aug 01 20:31:05 Luria: yeah. no kidding. :) I lost mine. Aug 01 20:31:06 or on the device Aug 01 20:31:22 trevarthan, so did i Aug 01 20:31:46 pupnik: not sure about the old ITOS. I built bluetooth-alsa and mplayer for 2007 though. Aug 01 20:31:52 wanna know how i got a new pair - not that its going to help you... Aug 01 20:32:01 sure Aug 01 20:32:08 if anything, it will add to your despair Aug 01 20:32:21 i went to the nokia flagship store Aug 01 20:32:27 on 5th avenue Aug 01 20:32:31 and asked Aug 01 20:32:44 I think I remember you telling this story a while back. Aug 01 20:32:49 they didnt even have an sku to order it Aug 01 20:32:51 yeah Aug 01 20:33:03 they just gave you a sample model, right? Aug 01 20:33:13 from the back room for free Aug 01 20:33:17 :) Aug 01 20:33:27 i even offered to pay Aug 01 20:33:33 that sucks. too bad it isn't a more common jack. Aug 01 20:33:43 fwiw, i did see some euro sites selling it Aug 01 20:34:03 i actually have to return a set of iphone eshures Aug 01 20:34:12 they *sorta* work Aug 01 20:34:39 My ipod headphone work fine. Just uses the onboard mic. Aug 01 20:35:18 well, yeah, but the point is to have the mic :-/ Aug 01 20:35:38 and arent you too bright to have an ipod :-p Aug 01 20:35:41 doesn't bug me too much. the one on the n800 works fine. Aug 01 20:36:04 no, I'm starting to think I'm stupid for having an n800. :) Aug 01 20:36:24 not liking it? Aug 01 20:36:33 the headphone jack on the nokia is not a standard 3.5mm jack? is that only true of the N800 or the 770 as well? Aug 01 20:36:42 I could still be using my ipod. It's cheaper, and I don't have to write any code to make it work. Aug 01 20:36:59 No A2DP on the ipod though. That was one of my selling points for the n800. Aug 01 20:36:59 NoOneNo, it is a standard jack plus an extra ring Aug 01 20:37:31 so pluggin regular headphones does not line the left,right,ground rings up? Aug 01 20:37:36 plugging in Aug 01 20:37:58 NoOneNo: no, it does. Aug 01 20:38:22 And it's pretty slick. normal headphones work fine, AND the mic on the n800 works at the same time. Aug 01 20:38:22 oh good, sorry could confused by the above... Aug 01 20:39:17 could = got Aug 01 20:39:56 NoOneNo: it's just not a common jack. nobody makes replacement headphones *with* the mic for it. Aug 01 20:40:48 but for the bluetooth headset profile thats still pretty good, stereo jack connected to car amplifier, internal mic still working for voice Aug 01 20:41:04 right. Aug 01 20:41:08 though I would imagine the problem of voice echo cancellation will be a problem Aug 01 20:41:14 unless its already doing that in the DSP Aug 01 20:41:20 or find a plug that fits and wire the mic anywhere you want. Aug 01 20:41:21 part Aug 01 20:41:49 I doubt it does that in the dsp. Aug 01 20:42:30 My friend was complaining that he could hear himself when I was testing SIP with him on "speaker". Aug 01 20:42:54 complaint went away when I plugged in my ipod headphones. Aug 01 20:44:31 hmmm, that would suck ... how bad was the echo, un-doable? Aug 01 20:46:11 so, new themes? Aug 01 20:46:22 i napped again btw, what's wrong with me. sleeping 20 hours a day Aug 01 20:46:54 NoOneNo: not sure. he heard it, not me. Aug 01 20:48:32 disq: no new themes yet. k-s[WORK] and _Handful_ had an excellent conversation with me regarding canola and EFL though. Aug 01 20:48:44 in-channel? i should check logs Aug 01 20:49:11 i just didn't like the Pawn scripting and the unclean macros, but efl looks good to me otherwise Aug 01 20:49:32 disq: yeah. I pitched a fit. They told me to shut up. It was good stuff. Aug 01 20:49:53 I just don't like rewriting everything. Aug 01 20:50:08 need a bigger team Aug 01 20:50:13 yup Aug 01 20:50:50 apparently EFL has a scroll widget of it's own these days. so we could use that. Aug 01 20:51:30 ah the joys of dinky "free" wifi Aug 01 20:51:36 Oh, and k-s[WORK] smacked me on the head and told me how retarded my scroll widget code is and a really obvious way to speed it up and reduce memory usage by a lot. Aug 01 20:51:41 yeah i saw the videos in planet.maemo.org Aug 01 20:52:02 constructive critisizm, that's good Aug 01 20:52:27 Yeah. I should have seen that tweak. I probably would have given time. It's really obvious. Aug 01 20:52:33 disq: not that bad... I didn't told him that bad words Aug 01 20:52:34 :-) Aug 01 20:52:53 whatever. my head's still sore. you made me cry. Aug 01 20:52:55 :) Aug 01 20:53:05 oh no Aug 01 20:53:08 :-D Aug 01 20:53:08 dont cry Aug 01 20:53:42 its not like canola is better :-) Aug 01 20:53:44 "Developers May Cry" Aug 01 20:54:19 disq: so we might have a 1.1 release soon with "trev's scroll widget sucks much less now" as the primary reason. Aug 01 20:54:47 trevarthan: don't forget to credit me Aug 01 20:54:48 :-D Aug 01 20:54:51 could make it 1.0.2 instead Aug 01 20:55:04 its the background refresh patch in the deb or only in svn? Aug 01 20:55:07 also "ooh look we fixed the theme some more, thanks to these guys" type of thing Aug 01 20:55:36 k-s[WORK]: yeah, but who do I cite you as? k-s? k-s[WORK]? k-s[AWAY-WORK]? I'm so confused. Aug 01 20:55:54 Luria: svn only. just committed it today. Aug 01 20:57:00 looking forward to the next release Aug 01 20:57:14 yeah, me too. it's gonna not suck as much. :) Aug 01 20:57:18 may i ask why the scanner is separate? Aug 01 20:57:41 trevarthan: Gustavo Sverzut Barbieri Aug 01 20:57:45 trevarthan: that's my name Aug 01 20:58:02 ok. I'll be sure to tell everyone you verbally abused me. :) Aug 01 20:58:06 and/or doesnt use the native indexing? Aug 01 20:58:28 by native indexing do you mean metalayer? Aug 01 20:58:48 Luria: separate because most people don't change media that much. and that's how canola did it. (I think) Aug 01 20:59:03 native indexing: Is that possible? Aug 01 20:59:21 is metalayer the native dialog approach? Aug 01 20:59:23 trevarthan: canole has a service running in the background looking for mmc mount/unmount signals Aug 01 20:59:33 yeah, thats it Aug 01 20:59:42 right. Aug 01 20:59:53 and then canola-conf runs to scan stuff. Aug 01 20:59:58 oh, not the canola Aug 01 21:00:19 disq: you may use that if you want Aug 01 21:00:27 ~/.canola/canola.db is sqlite3 Aug 01 21:00:29 k-s[AWAY_WORK]: okay Aug 01 21:00:34 Luria: well. both authors currently have metalayer-crawler0 disabled in init.d. it would dive into my sardine partition and never come back. some other problems with trev. so, we're only trying to use the "good parts" of the osso-media-engine (like the player) Aug 01 21:00:50 oh, not the canola i wanted to delete it when i try to debug the utf issue Aug 01 21:00:54 oops Aug 01 21:00:55 ~/.canola/canola.db ? Aug 01 21:00:55 <_Monkey> it has been said that ~/.canola/canola.db is sqlite3 Aug 01 21:00:56 /.canola/canola.db is, like, sqlite3 Aug 01 21:01:00 aahahaha Aug 01 21:01:08 i wanted to delete the db when i try to debug the utf issue Aug 01 21:01:31 Luria: that's it Aug 01 21:01:41 strace is your friend for these stuff :-D Aug 01 21:01:42 k thnx Aug 01 21:01:52 strace -e trace=open canola Aug 01 21:02:13 Luria: you had a utf8 issue with kagu-scanner? please do debug or at least send us sample files, we'd like to reproduce Aug 01 21:02:22 oops not for canola Aug 01 21:02:35 disq, yeah i did Aug 01 21:02:38 i thought i fixed them all :) Aug 01 21:02:38 disq: yeah, I already talked to him about it. he's gonna look into it. Aug 01 21:03:00 disq: no, urllib is still b0rked. Aug 01 21:03:00 i just havent been home to get hebrew files on my machine Aug 01 21:03:31 since it worked with german, im guessing its rtl+utf Aug 01 21:03:36 but not sure Aug 01 21:04:01 btw did you notice how we get album covers right most of the time (if the album/artist name is right?) :) gotta love audioscrobbler for that Aug 01 21:04:32 yeah - it even got the arrl morse code instruction cds Aug 01 21:04:36 yeah, it does a pretty good job. Aug 01 21:04:37 i was shocked Aug 01 21:04:46 need libasound Aug 01 21:05:13 still it would be nice to be able to shut off the download query Aug 01 21:05:28 as an option Aug 01 21:05:49 Luria: provide a cover.jpg or a folder.jpg and it won't try to download. Aug 01 21:06:00 hopefully kagu-config will give you some options on that in later releases Aug 01 21:09:02 btw, what do debug info do you want? terminal output+sample mp3+dmesg? Aug 01 21:09:27 err scratch the "do" Aug 01 21:09:36 crap, xchat is too small Aug 01 21:10:23 term output and sample mp3 would be ok Aug 01 21:11:04 (sample mp3 because we'd like to reproduce and be sure we got the fix right. if you can test it repeatedly again and again for us no need for the mp3 file obviously) Aug 01 21:11:40 watch, it failed on 10 tries last night; now it will work :-) Aug 01 21:17:55 hi all. is there a decent flickr mass uploader for the n800 ye? Aug 01 21:19:39 _Monkey: libasound2 is binaries compiled under gregale at http://pupnik.de/ libasound2-dev_1.0.8-3_armel.deb libasound2-plugins_1.0.8-3_armel.deb libasound2_1.0.8-3_armel.deb Aug 01 21:19:39 <_Monkey> OK, pupnik. Aug 01 21:27:10 _Monkey: alsa-oss is it2006 2.2 (gregale) binary deb package at http://pupnik.de/alsa-oss_1.0.8-1_armel.deb Aug 01 21:27:11 <_Monkey> OK, pupnik. Aug 01 21:36:49 anybody have favorite cflags for 770 926? Aug 01 21:37:00 for 770 i am using -mcpu=arm926ej-s -fomit-frame-pointer Aug 01 21:39:11 could scratchbox be installed on osx with the help of fink ? Aug 01 21:39:38 anyone have experience with gammu? Aug 01 21:57:42 <_Handful_> guardian: I think it's easier to use the Maemo VMWARE image... than trying this : / Aug 01 21:58:22 sure easier but less cool :) Aug 01 21:59:23 <||cw> fink is just a way to compile some tools for darwin right? or a binary repo already compiled for it right? Aug 01 21:59:48 <||cw> if all the tools are there, with the options needed, don't see why it wouldn't work Aug 01 22:00:21 hey folks Aug 01 22:00:29 crap forgot i installed gammu Aug 01 22:00:35 darn cli apps Aug 01 22:01:07 <_Handful_> yeah : / Aug 01 22:09:55 are there any p2p gui apps for the n800? Aug 01 22:10:03 other than nicotine Aug 01 22:15:41 P.E.OpS Sound drivers built Aug 01 22:19:44 whats P.E.OpS? Aug 01 22:20:06 sound emu for psx spu Aug 01 22:20:25 and the rest of the emulator is working? Aug 01 22:20:32 it compiles now Aug 01 22:20:42 hmm... 4.2007 busybox sort doesn't work (ignores sort key)... anyone seen a working version of sort for maemo? Aug 01 22:23:22 not here Aug 01 22:24:42 what provides sort? Aug 01 22:24:49 busybox Aug 01 22:24:49 <_Monkey> hmmm... busybox is weak by default Aug 01 22:24:58 _monkey thanks Aug 01 22:24:58 <_Monkey> milhouse: pas de quoi Aug 01 22:25:38 trying to sort a list on the first field, which is numeric and sort on n800 just ignores the keyfield (-k1n) yet it works fine on my ubuntu box Aug 01 22:26:09 basically, sort seems to be behaving the same as cat... anything i pipe through it is output in the same order... grrrrr Aug 01 22:26:24 debian package 'coreutils' milhouse Aug 01 22:26:33 is that available on n800? Aug 01 22:26:57 ooh... apt-cache says it is... i'll download it now Aug 01 22:26:58 i see it on 700 - apt-cache search coreutils Aug 01 22:27:00 :) Aug 01 22:27:01 thanks pupnik Aug 01 22:27:04 pupnik++ Aug 01 22:28:11 hmmm, seems it's a virtual package provided by busybox 3:1.4.1-osso2.2 Aug 01 22:29:32 if i build coreutils for you it will have a bunch of unneeded docs and manpages Aug 01 22:29:41 you'd have to remove that by hand Aug 01 22:29:42 nah don't worry Aug 01 22:29:52 but thanks for the offer Aug 01 22:30:24 i was just messing about with a script to check space usage in /home/user and wanted it sorted by size Aug 01 22:31:40 hmm Aug 01 22:32:32 du -s /home/user/* |sort -n Aug 01 22:33:25 du -s /home/user/* /home/user/.[a-z]* |sort -n Aug 01 22:33:27 hmmm... why is that sorting? Aug 01 22:33:40 yeah, the hidden directories are the tricky ones Aug 01 22:34:22 oh joy! Aug 01 22:34:25 sort -n works Aug 01 22:34:30 but sort -k1n does not Aug 01 22:34:34 ah yes Aug 01 22:34:38 i'm happy though, i can get by with sort -n Aug 01 22:34:40 :) Aug 01 22:34:54 thanks pupnik! Aug 01 22:35:01 happy to be of use Aug 01 22:38:01 In Bernardo Bertolucci's epic, 1987 masterpiece on China, The Last Emperor, deposed emperor Pu-Yi (John Lone) complains bitterly to the benevolent, fatherly governor (Ruocheng Ying) of the communist prison in which the emperor is being re-educated, "You just used me!" The commandant responds calmly, "Is it so terrible, to be of use?" Aug 01 22:39:45 repositories? Aug 01 22:40:47 _Monkey, repositories are not just a job, but an adventure! Add some for big win! http://maemo.org/community/wiki/ApplicationRepositories Aug 01 22:40:47 <_Monkey> OK, pupnik. Aug 01 22:40:50 hello everyone Aug 01 22:43:12 hello chai_sangeen Aug 01 22:44:25 pupnik, nice to see ppl with knowledge =-P Aug 01 22:46:09 if anyone can help, when i "apt-get upgrade" this is what i get, i'm running the latest nokia firmware http://pastebin.ca/642387 Aug 01 22:49:15 chai_sangeen: i don't know. suggest you email the package maintainer Aug 01 22:49:32 apt-cache show packagename.deb Aug 01 22:51:39 pupnik: okay i'll do that right away, thanks... i think these packages are part of the sip client Aug 01 22:52:42 here is the link to there website http://rtcomm.garage.maemo.org/ Aug 01 23:10:58 'Kerwood' sounds like a good name for an RPG Aug 01 23:11:51 i'm confused about sound and oss and alsa Aug 01 23:13:52 pupnik_: heh heh Aug 01 23:14:06 are you scottish? Aug 01 23:15:16 pupnik_: whats wrong with alsa and oss? Aug 01 23:17:51 well /usr/include/linux/soundcard.h looks like oss Aug 01 23:17:56 * NeoStrider is playing with gcc profiling =-D Aug 01 23:18:11 I guess OSS is more kernel bound Aug 01 23:18:16 correct me if Im wrong Aug 01 23:18:28 it uses the sound card/chip just like an old DOS game Aug 01 23:18:32 but my emu wants to open /dev/dsp Aug 01 23:18:34 while alsa multiplexes it Aug 01 23:18:37 if ((so.sound_fd = open ("/dev/dsp", O_WRONLY)) Aug 01 23:18:42 hmm Aug 01 23:18:46 thats the problem Aug 01 23:19:05 sometimes /dev/dsp is mapped to one of this sound systems Aug 01 23:19:17 you must check out how it is mapped Aug 01 23:19:33 ok Aug 01 23:19:36 I remember when I tried to use sdl_mixer under sbox and I coudlnt open /dev/dsp Aug 01 23:20:08 ok i need to get a file descriptor from oss Aug 01 23:20:15 that is not called with open /dev/dsp Aug 01 23:20:17 but something else Aug 01 23:20:45 int OSS_init(int seqfd, int buflen); Aug 01 23:20:47 maybe that Aug 01 23:22:03 "programming by guessing" Aug 01 23:22:07 some distros map /dev/dsp as a ready to use descriptor...I guess alsa mostly does that Aug 01 23:22:13 welcome to the club =-) Aug 01 23:24:15 gtg Aug 01 23:24:17 brb Aug 01 23:43:06 _Monkey: for example? Aug 01 23:43:06 <_Monkey> it has been said that for example is 0x00 a valid value for a Java bytecode? Aug 01 23:50:11 is it possible to set the default mail app to something elses Aug 01 23:50:27 like claws? Aug 01 23:51:25 forcev: someone asked that on ITT recently Aug 01 23:51:40 i think the answer was no, but it's being looked into Aug 01 23:54:24 milhouse: thanks Aug 01 23:55:10 wheres trevarthan? Aug 01 23:55:10 <_Monkey> it has been said that trevarthan is a cowardly programmer who stole an n800 from a baby and regularly has relations with my mom. Aug 01 23:55:15 lol Aug 01 23:55:45 where's unique311 Aug 01 23:55:48 where's unique311? Aug 01 23:56:12 trevarthan, i got a package for you. Aug 01 23:59:27 does the pimlico addressbook replace the builtin one? Aug 02 00:04:59 Hi all. When I'm in a dropbear client session, how do I end the session? Aug 02 00:06:20 doesnt 'exit' work? im sure thats what i use Aug 02 00:07:53 Yep. It's 'exit'. Thanks! Aug 02 00:14:40 Ok, I'm working on reliably using sudo on my 770 in the interest of security best practices. So, user root has a non-default password, as does user 'user'. However, I'm having trouble using sudo... For example... Aug 02 00:16:09 I've added user ALL = PASSWD: /bin/su to /etc/sudoers, but sudo su returns "sorry user user is not allowed to execute ' /bin/su -'" Aug 02 00:16:38 why does sudo return that error? Aug 02 00:18:17 shouldn't you add /bin/su * or /bin/su - to sudoers? Aug 02 00:18:25 it's quite anal about how it matches Aug 02 00:25:04 So the line would look like "user ALL = PASSWD: /bin/su *" without the quotes in the sudoers file? Aug 02 00:32:28 Seems to return the same thing with /bin/su * and even with /bin/su - in the file. Is it enough to close the xterm window each time affter each edit o see if the edit has made an effect? Aug 02 00:37:11 closing the session isn't necessary Aug 02 00:41:53 user ALL = NOPASSWD: /bin/su * Aug 02 00:41:55 should wortk Aug 02 00:42:01 s/wortk/work Aug 02 00:44:28 And then as far as syntax/usage, for example, if I want to edit a file that requires higher priviledges , I would type "sudo su" then hit return, then enter my pw at the prompt then i could do vi filename and hit enter and vi would open foo for editing, correct? Aug 02 00:44:51 s/foo/filename Aug 02 00:44:58 no... /bin/su * means it needs at least one param Aug 02 00:45:04 ie - Aug 02 00:45:30 what is the '-' parameter do/mean? Aug 02 00:45:42 loads a new environment Aug 02 00:45:48 sudo su - Aug 02 00:47:59 i just added Aug 02 00:48:02 user ALL = NOPASSWD: /bin/su * Aug 02 00:48:05 to /etc/sudoers Aug 02 00:48:13 and now if i type "sudo su -" Aug 02 00:48:18 i sudo to root Aug 02 00:48:24 (from user) Aug 02 00:48:57 and if i type "sudo su - user" i start another suession as user... Aug 02 00:49:03 no password required due to NOPASSWD Aug 02 00:49:08 Greetings. I have recently gotten a Nokia 770 and I'm trying to get the development environment working, using the instructions at http://maemo.org/development/documentation/tutorials/Maemo_2.2_Tutorial.html#settingup, but they appear to be incomplete. Aug 02 00:49:12 what is it you're trying to achieve again? Aug 02 00:49:38 Is there some other set of documentation that I should be using? Aug 02 00:50:15 asdfsd: actually, even "sudo su" seems to work, no need for "-" as a param Aug 02 00:51:28 well, I wish to sudo as needed to install things like kismet while also making sure someone can't get root access to my 770 without a password. Now, NOPASSWD means that someone could get sudo access without a pw, but would have to be physically on the 770, right? So in other words, NOPASSWD isn't a security risk is it? Aug 02 00:52:35 well... Aug 02 00:52:51 it means that someone has to have comrpomised your little fella first Aug 02 00:52:59 by which time any password is pointless Aug 02 00:53:22 user doesn't normally have a password, so you've possible made it more insecure by setting one Aug 02 00:53:43 changing the default root password is a good idea, even if it's only theoretical that someone can/will compromise your device Aug 02 00:53:53 personally i don't bother... Aug 02 00:54:17 though i very rarely login as root and rely on ssh instead so i should really Aug 02 00:54:37 I frequently have DMZ set up, and DHCP, so sometimes, the DMZ IP could point to the 770, so that's why I am worried. Aug 02 00:54:49 by ssh i mean i ssh in as user using a public/private key then get root using sudo gainroot Aug 02 00:55:39 do you put your 770 in the dmz? Aug 02 00:56:45 Not intentionally, but my linksys doles out DHCP addys and the 770 could get the address from DHCP that's in the DMZ . Aug 02 00:57:00 only due to a misconfiguration surely? Aug 02 00:57:18 that shouldn't happen under normal circumstances Aug 02 00:57:19 Couldn't you just configure your linksys to give out specific IPs to specific MAC addresses? Aug 02 00:57:24 as that would be very bad... Aug 02 00:57:44 The linksys stock firmware doesn't do DMZ by MAC Aug 02 00:58:03 I'm switching to a wrt distro sometime Aug 02 00:58:52 sounds like a very good idea... i don't think i'd continue using a dhcp server that randomly put machines into a DMZ! Aug 02 00:59:59 Exactly! My only option would be to continue using the stock firmware and use static IPs, which is a hassle. Aug 02 01:00:20 but less of a security risk! ;) Aug 02 01:00:59 IP address is a property of the wireless connection on the 770 isn't it? Aug 02 01:01:03 shouldn't be that much of a hassle Aug 02 01:01:15 ok, now, I'm going back to messing with the sudoers file after this nice tangent Aug 02 01:02:05 might come back to the IP issue, i do appreciate this. afk messing with sudoers :-) Aug 02 01:02:19 I suspect you're trying to fix the wrong problem to be honest Aug 02 01:03:45 DMZ should be my first priority? Aug 02 01:03:50 yes Aug 02 01:04:22 ensure your 770 never goes in the dmz and you'll have to worry less about preventing access to your device. Aug 02 01:04:46 adding a password to user has potentially opened up one means of exploiting your device Aug 02 01:05:18 Now how has adding a pw opened up a vulnerability? Aug 02 01:05:25 Couldn't he just configure the ssh server to disallow login by password? Aug 02 01:05:35 because it wasn't possible to login as user before you added the password, now it is Aug 02 01:05:58 user+password Aug 02 01:06:00 that is Aug 02 01:06:44 jrbl - probably... then why add the password in the first place? :) Aug 02 01:07:05 heh Aug 02 01:08:26 So, should I follow these 2.2 dev environment instructions to the (poorly edited) letter, or can I get away with using the scratchbox packages for Debian, which install the binaries as, e.g., sb-conf and friends? Aug 02 01:09:22 And if I'm supposed to be able to use the packaged version of the software (which seems to include the rootkit and everything else that the docs say to download), then is there some trick to using them? When I try to run 'sb-conf' I get errors. Aug 02 01:09:43 This all started when i followed the instructions on http://maemo.org/community/oldwiki/howdoibecomeroot2/ al the way until just before disabling root logon with password. Doing all the dsteps until that point gave me the error sorry user user is not allowed to execute ' /bin/su -' when using sudo su - or sudo su Aug 02 01:10:25 nopaste? Aug 02 01:10:29 hm. Bummer. Aug 02 01:10:36 nopaste? Aug 02 01:11:12 ffs, i wish someone would just delete those becomeroot instructions - they're archiac Aug 02 01:11:19 s/archiac/archaic/ Aug 02 01:11:19 milhouse meant: ffs, i wish someone would just delete those becomeroot instructions - they're archaic Aug 02 01:11:21 Yeah. nopaste. Some channel bots do nopaste, and saying 'nopaste?' will have them tell you the URL. Nopaste is a web-based dumping ground so you don't spam the channel with pastes of commands and error messages. Aug 02 01:11:26 just install the becomeroot package Aug 02 01:11:39 becomeroot? Aug 02 01:11:39 <_Monkey> it has been said that becomeroot is For 770 ITOS2006, install dropbear or openssh, then ssh to root on the device, then in a shell: echo 'deb http://eko.one.pl/maemo mistral user' >> /var/cache/apt/sources.list && apt-get update && apt-get install becomeroot , then in xterm type "sudo gainroot" Aug 02 01:12:15 got to teach _monkey to fix that... Aug 02 01:12:38 Add http://eko.one.pl/maemo mistral user to your application manager and install becomeroot package Aug 02 01:12:53 Heh "sudo gainroot" already works for me Aug 02 01:13:24 Methinks I've been spinning my wheels/wasting my time, eh? Aug 02 01:13:30 So, can anyone help me get the actual development environment to work? Aug 02 01:13:37 i think you may be worrying about no a lot :) Aug 02 01:13:42 s/no/not/ Aug 02 01:13:44 milhouse meant: i think you may be worrying about not a lot :) Aug 02 01:14:15 Dvelopment env, sorry, no. Aug 02 01:14:43 Bummer. Is there a better time/person to chat with? Aug 02 01:15:09 probably when europe isn't fast asleep Aug 02 01:15:55 So around 14:00UTC? Aug 02 01:16:10 Are most of the maemo devs in Europe, then? Aug 02 01:16:11 should be a good time :) Aug 02 01:16:16 I think I'll remove my changes to the sudoers file then. Aug 02 01:16:20 maemo == Finland + Brazil, yes Aug 02 01:16:37 Really? I hadn't heard that that was the case. That's interesting. Aug 02 01:16:50 wow, is Brazil in the EU now too? ;-) Aug 02 01:16:53 I like Finlanders and Brazilians. Aug 02 01:16:54 heh. Aug 02 01:17:00 yes, new member state Aug 02 01:17:02 ;) Aug 02 01:17:41 Those blonde haired amazonians are a sight to behold. Aug 02 01:19:09 hey milhouse what ssh client do you prefer on your desktop/laptop/what have you? Or what linux distro u runnin? Aug 02 01:19:23 standard openssh Aug 02 01:19:32 on ubuntu and 770/n800 Aug 02 01:19:41 i avoid dropbear... Aug 02 01:20:13 why avoid dropbear? Aug 02 01:20:56 why not? it's less functional than openssh, less standardised (compared to openssh) and seems to cause more problems when people install it. Aug 02 01:21:11 mind you that's just my opinion Aug 02 01:21:54 heh good reasons! and you've set up a key pair that allows you to connect to the 770 without a pw in ssh? Aug 02 01:21:58 dropbear was, i think, the first ssh server/client on 770 which is why some prefer it and reference it in (old) documentation Aug 02 01:22:08 bcnexus: yes Aug 02 01:22:49 old documentation! hah, documentation seems to spread out and I don't know of any "current" or "new" documentation then! Aug 02 01:23:01 s/to/too Aug 02 01:23:29 getting root is ridiculously easy these days... no need for all the dropbear/ssh as root nonsense really. Aug 02 01:24:42 How do I sort the old cruft from the new stuff out there? Seems like an intrinsic problem perhaps, for all documentation. Is it all just read and compare and trial and error? Aug 02 01:24:56 pretty much Aug 02 01:24:59 a bit of intuition Aug 02 01:25:02 also Aug 02 01:26:29 so your 770 doesn't have passwords, nor is ssh logon via password possible then ? Aug 02 01:26:40 only as root with rootme Aug 02 01:26:46 because i haven't disabled root login Aug 02 01:26:58 but if i did, then password logins would be impossible Aug 02 01:27:18 how does rootme work again? Aug 02 01:27:28 ssh -l root Aug 02 01:27:34 when prompted, enter rootme Aug 02 01:27:47 otherwise i just ssh -l user Aug 02 01:27:54 and go strainht in without a password Aug 02 01:28:14 rootme is the default pw? Aug 02 01:28:19 for root, yes Aug 02 01:29:21 i plan to use my 770 as a monitor via vnc or rdesktop to control a car computer so it would always be wi fi on... Aug 02 01:30:04 car computer being a bocx in my car for surround sound music and gps Aug 02 01:30:26 if not surround sound then for better interface with subs and full range speakers Aug 02 01:31:46 crazy huh? sometime ago, i figure it would be better working on that than wasting my time in the summer watching tv :-) Aug 02 01:32:30 should be an interesting project :) don't forget install Carman too! Aug 02 01:33:19 off by 1 :-( my car is OBDI, being a '96 Aug 02 01:33:28 being a '95 Aug 02 01:33:32 heh Aug 02 01:34:14 Does the 770 have an airplane mode? Lol. Aug 02 01:34:21 yes Aug 02 01:34:26 :O Aug 02 01:34:37 Where can I enable that? Aug 02 01:34:38 96s and newer have OBD-II Aug 02 01:34:52 jbinder - you mean offline mode? sometimes called flight mode? Aug 02 01:34:53 tap the off button, select turn off wireless Aug 02 01:34:55 in the Power menu Aug 02 01:35:02 Oh. Ok. Aug 02 01:35:05 And to bring it back up? Aug 02 01:35:07 Oh, I think I may have the dev thing licked. But, now I have to go afk; I have an appointment. Aug 02 01:35:08 same Aug 02 01:35:16 ttfn Aug 02 01:35:28 bye nice 2 meet u Aug 02 01:36:22 cya bcnexus Aug 02 01:36:39 u leavin? i meant bye 2 jrbl... Aug 02 01:36:54 ah... oh well time for me to get some kip, it's 2.36 here :( Aug 02 01:37:23 c u Aug 02 01:37:28 I see. Thanks for your help! Aug 02 01:37:34 np Aug 02 02:02:47 hello folks Aug 02 02:14:07 * NeoStrider punches NeoStrider_IM on the face Aug 02 02:14:52 ello Aug 02 02:14:59 hello Aug 02 02:15:34 wesnoth! Aug 02 02:15:38 reminds me. i need to download that Aug 02 02:15:43 angstron! Aug 02 02:15:44 <_Monkey> angstron is http://angstron.garage.maemo.org/ Aug 02 02:15:52 ?? Aug 02 02:15:55 reminds me, i need to finish that Aug 02 02:15:57 =-P Aug 02 02:16:13 just joking Aug 02 02:16:44 off the top of your head, do you know how to search a man page? Aug 02 02:16:52 man -k will search all man pages.. Aug 02 02:16:53 not really Aug 02 02:16:54 sorry Aug 02 02:16:58 bah Aug 02 02:23:15 im pushing more than 39000 polygons on the 770. NICE! Aug 02 02:32:13 GIVE US A BETTER DPAD! Aug 02 02:33:09 hahahha Aug 02 02:33:24 there must be a way to plug a usb joypad! Aug 02 02:33:24 i was just testing uqm for a few hours and it was hell Aug 02 02:33:32 smw was a hell too Aug 02 02:33:56 but i could play while walking home Aug 02 02:33:57 often I was trying to jump and go left at the same time and hell, I just coudlnt Aug 02 02:34:10 yeah..this is great Aug 02 02:34:23 at least angstron works well with it Aug 02 02:34:32 well a better dpad means you can play while standing on bus, waiting for train etc Aug 02 02:34:44 ....or crossing the road Aug 02 02:34:49 a seperate controller means *joke* *fail* *no point* Aug 02 02:35:08 heh Aug 02 02:35:13 mmmmmmm Aug 02 02:35:17 what about... Aug 02 02:35:26 ...using the phone keyboard as a remote ? Aug 02 02:35:33 i am thinking of gluing a ring Aug 02 02:35:34 via bluetooth Aug 02 02:36:04 if we are talking bluetooth then a stowaway keyboard works fine Aug 02 02:36:04 nice idea, frob Aug 02 02:36:17 not everybody wants to buy a kb Aug 02 02:36:22 how many hands do you have frob? Aug 02 02:36:24 pupnik_: except it's more readily available Aug 02 02:36:34 pupnik_: lemme count... Aug 02 02:36:55 every average joe today has bt on his phone already Aug 02 02:37:01 both my parents have! Aug 02 02:37:10 tablet on one hand, phone on the other Aug 02 02:37:18 * frob hasn't :°( Aug 02 02:37:21 and if I tell them their phone has java they will ask me who spilled coffe on it! Aug 02 02:37:37 * NeoStrider doesnt have BT either Aug 02 02:37:57 anyway, *nobody ever* tought about using the phone as an input method for the tablet ? Aug 02 02:38:42 frob, its a GREAT idea Aug 02 02:38:54 it even has diagonals!!! Aug 02 02:38:55 i don't see why it's a good idea Aug 02 02:39:01 oh i got diagonals Aug 02 02:39:14 in ur quan masters i managed to move diagonally Aug 02 02:39:15 how? Aug 02 02:39:29 it's possible Aug 02 02:39:34 very difficult Aug 02 02:39:49 you have to get the angle perfect Aug 02 02:39:54 I remember the docs from the 770 launch, explaining what was the key mapping. there was no mention to diagonals Aug 02 02:40:08 i can make a video :) Aug 02 02:40:15 cool. do it! Aug 02 02:40:21 in planet landing sequence when you select where to land Aug 02 02:40:28 you can move the cursor diagonally Aug 02 02:40:29 frob, there is a second issue: how to get those on our apps seeamsly? Aug 02 02:40:51 stupid question: are there phones with good dpads? Aug 02 02:40:57 (i have never owned one) Aug 02 02:41:07 pupnik...its not the phone's dpad Aug 02 02:41:11 its the numeric keypad Aug 02 02:41:31 * NeoStrider once owned a N-Gage. best D-Pad ever Aug 02 02:44:43 damn.. Aug 02 02:44:44 <_Monkey> it has been said that damn is there no Aug 02 02:45:06 _Monkey: forget damn Aug 02 02:45:07 <_Monkey> NeoStrider: I forgot damn Aug 02 02:45:11 as I was saying, *anybody ever* tought about using the phone as an input method for the tablet ? Aug 02 02:45:22 _Monkey: damn is a very sad thing to say Aug 02 02:45:22 <_Monkey> OK, NeoStrider. Aug 02 02:45:25 damn Aug 02 02:45:43 I guess not Aug 02 02:45:51 but the oposite, yes Aug 02 02:46:02 there is selfone, that uses the tablet as a handsfree Aug 02 02:46:15 _Monkey: damn Aug 02 02:46:16 <_Monkey> rumour has it damn is a very sad thing to say Aug 02 02:46:24 _Monkey: there Aug 02 02:46:25 <_Monkey> there is some app that is drawing a lot of power Aug 02 02:46:29 mmm Aug 02 02:46:46 maybe it's just me, but I don't like filling the touchscreen with fingertips Aug 02 02:47:32 * NeoStrider agrees....all that grease on the screen Aug 02 02:50:26 have you guys ever seen Desktop Mario? Aug 02 02:50:37 im running it on the tablet Aug 02 02:50:43 somewhat slower than desktop Aug 02 02:50:48 but still feasible Aug 02 02:51:17 do you play games the whole damn day NeoStrider? :D Aug 02 02:51:24 not really Aug 02 02:51:27 I just got home Aug 02 02:51:46 take a look: Aug 02 02:51:47 http://overdrawn.net/mario/ Aug 02 02:52:08 unless you have three hands Aug 02 02:52:13 I wish I could work with games...but...you know...not possible... Aug 02 02:52:24 pupnik: ? Aug 02 02:53:09 reminds me from playing Mario on my TI-92+ :-) Aug 02 02:53:14 =-D Aug 02 02:53:22 this is not suitable for the tablet per se Aug 02 02:53:34 'designed to be used as a windows active desktop' ?? Aug 02 02:53:45 but its a good proof-of-concept that a cool tablet game can be written on js Aug 02 02:53:49 yes Aug 02 02:53:49 that's like.. 1994 ? :P Aug 02 02:53:55 you use it as you wallpaper Aug 02 02:54:03 still works Aug 02 02:54:07 its not confortable Aug 02 02:54:09 but works Aug 02 02:54:14 I did it once Aug 02 02:54:20 only to change it back after 5 minutes Aug 02 02:54:34 but thats not my point Aug 02 02:54:49 the point is: we can write cool games this way Aug 02 02:55:12 it doesn't mean we should :D Aug 02 02:55:28 not the 3D stuff Im working on, sure, but Im sure some projects like hedgehop could benefit from it Aug 02 02:56:17 frob...do you want to handle all the junk stuff from a SDL app running on Maemo? Aug 02 02:57:51 also, what if you "just want to make some cool games"? Aug 02 02:58:11 Im sure you're going to enjoy some easy gaming on your tablet Aug 02 02:58:36 we are long overdue for a decent genesis and snes emulator Aug 02 02:59:14 the rpg games would be playable with the horrible dpad Aug 02 02:59:42 well, I haven't played a game in years, I actually discovered majhong on the tablet by accident **** ENDING LOGGING AT Thu Aug 02 02:59:57 2007