**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Fri Oct 19 02:59:58 2007 Oct 19 04:05:57 bye Oct 19 04:33:19 Grr... Is there a functional link somewhere for downloading the Chinook VMWare appliance? http://maemovmware.garage.maemo.org/ is broken. Oct 19 04:38:55 dolske: perhaps on the vmware appliance site Oct 19 04:40:56 Just bora. :/ Oct 19 04:41:28 "Results 1 - 10 of 98 for maemo." stupid site search. Oct 19 05:40:14 mmh, wordpress upgrade almost working... Oct 19 05:40:36 sqlite wordpress, that is Oct 19 05:42:28 Damned sqlite 2.x doesn't have alter table :/ Oct 19 05:45:35 sqlite 3 should have Oct 19 05:45:46 maybe not full, but at least add column Oct 19 05:46:41 yeah, it does Oct 19 05:46:51 but sqlite2 is already used on the device ;) Oct 19 05:47:29 hmm... it's only 150 k. Oct 19 05:47:42 so, you might consider adding the current one with your package Oct 19 05:47:50 what are you doing? Oct 19 05:48:08 Trying to make wordpress upgrade (2.0.9 -> 2.3) work Oct 19 05:48:19 ahh... Oct 19 05:48:44 perhaps just create new db and move the data from the old one to the new Oct 19 05:49:06 you can connect two databases together in sqlite and move data between them relatively easily Oct 19 05:50:24 just an idea Oct 19 05:50:35 i'm sure you'll figure out a better one Oct 19 05:51:07 I already have a "get table details, get table contents, drop table, recreate table, fill table" -solution Oct 19 05:51:25 sounds great Oct 19 05:51:55 konttori: any ukmp release news? Oct 19 05:52:05 umm... as in for what? Oct 19 05:52:16 read something on ITT about coverflow? Oct 19 05:52:20 umm.. I could put the n810 compatible version out Oct 19 05:52:25 ahh.. it's not my project Oct 19 05:52:36 I was just suggesting how one might go about making coverflow Oct 19 05:52:46 ok Oct 19 05:52:57 I don't have the time exactly right now to put to that. Oct 19 05:53:17 it would take some head banging against the wall to get it optimized enough. Oct 19 05:53:58 k Oct 19 05:54:34 otoh: if my ideas there would work out, then making that should take around two days to add to ukmp. Oct 19 05:55:04 mostly because to get it looking just right takes polish time Oct 19 05:56:54 new tablet besides looking guud, only hardware improvements. gps, keyboard, and wimax. Oct 19 06:00:25 so what does it take to run Maemo on other hardware? Specifically the Jornada 720 has a linux kernel now. Only 32MB RAM, though. Oct 19 06:00:59 n810 has an fm transmitter? Oct 19 06:01:15 who says that Oct 19 06:01:44 http://www.linuxdevices.com/news/NS3669465936.html Oct 19 06:02:25 and a few others that seem to have copied/pasted Oct 19 06:10:57 sounds interesting. I don't know if that fm stuff is corect. I'm so in the software side of things. Oct 19 06:11:16 if it is true, then it would be a really great way to connect n800 to home stereo at home. Oct 19 06:11:40 anyway, gotta go to work now. see you guys Oct 19 06:23:21 mornink Oct 19 06:24:03 mourning Oct 19 06:24:54 aww, wordpress is so saddening experience? :-) Oct 19 06:27:06 interesting. no email. I was expecting some feedback.. Oct 19 06:27:27 http://www.ustream.tv/channel/thoughtfixs-live-show/ Oct 19 06:27:32 If anybody wants a live N810 demo. Oct 19 06:28:09 * czr wants to feel the keyboard Oct 19 06:28:25 :) Oct 19 06:28:36 czr, I just hate it when I get empty pages and I've no idea why Oct 19 06:28:42 czr, error messages are sooooo nice Oct 19 06:28:45 hm, that was odd. i incidentally was watching one of his n800-takeapart videos when i started to see the ustream-thing without knowing it was the same guy Oct 19 06:29:11 inz, you aren't using sharepoint by any chance, are you? ;-) Oct 19 06:29:17 s/incidentally/coincidentally/ Oct 19 06:29:17 truls meant: hm, that was odd. i coincidentally was watching one of his n800-takeapart videos when i started to see the ustream-thing without knowing it was the same guy Oct 19 06:29:25 is it just my ustreamtv that is laggy or the 810, GeneralAntilles ? Oct 19 06:29:30 czr, nope Oct 19 06:29:33 UstreamTV Oct 19 06:29:45 3 N810 users in the room Oct 19 06:29:52 they're confirming that it's much smoother in person. Oct 19 06:30:08 inz, well, it's like whenever Application manager fails to install a package, you kind of get the same error message :-). so yes, I know the feeling :-) Oct 19 06:30:23 GeneralAntilles, they all work for nokia? Oct 19 06:30:39 and if not, how can you be truly sure!? Oct 19 06:30:44 * czr still wants to feel the keyboard Oct 19 06:31:01 czr, application manager _does_ have a log Oct 19 06:31:13 inz, where? Oct 19 06:31:21 o_O http://www.cbld.com/ Oct 19 06:31:22 czr: no. Oct 19 06:31:26 czr, somewhere in the menu Oct 19 06:31:29 I know it does. but it's always referred to as "Log". nothing else Oct 19 06:31:33 man, that's a lot snappier than my 770 Oct 19 06:31:33 oh Oct 19 06:31:45 does the UStream link work for anybody? Neither the video nor the cat are working for me Oct 19 06:31:50 czr, menu: tools/log... Oct 19 06:31:50 cat = chat Oct 19 06:31:59 inz, indeed Oct 19 06:32:04 Thoughtfix of tabletblog.com, Jonathan of maemo-apps.org, and Ragnar of . . . Nokia. Oct 19 06:32:14 * czr should be flogged with salmons Oct 19 06:32:26 never occurred to me that someone would stick the log into the menu :-) Oct 19 06:32:29 It's the UnstreamTV, just watch the motion on the non-N810 stuff. Oct 19 06:32:31 ah 52-54 viewers - ustream definitely the cause of Oct 19 06:32:32 yep Oct 19 06:32:45 Also, don't be a goddamn cynic, czr. :P Oct 19 06:33:08 GeneralAntilles: but I'm too busy watching the motion of the "Connecting..." loop ;) Oct 19 06:33:16 I don't have a nice answer to that, GeneralAntilles :-) Oct 19 06:34:04 thoughtfix should be live on #maemo :) to answer all our pesky questions too :D Oct 19 06:34:43 oh i see there's a chat there too Oct 19 06:36:01 good job @ thoughtfix tho - nice sharp camera view Oct 19 06:36:47 He's good at what he does. Oct 19 06:38:21 Good news is that pretty much all of this applies to the N800, too. (with OS2008). Oct 19 06:39:49 bp4l vs bp5l i think - both nominally 1500mah? Oct 19 06:40:05 Yeah Oct 19 06:40:14 I think it's just the shape/size. Oct 19 06:44:09 note that this is early release Oct 19 06:44:44 dang this is fun - thanks for the heads up GeneralAntilles Oct 19 06:45:15 Sure thing! Oct 19 06:45:40 Did you register? Oct 19 06:45:55 nah too much work - and there's way too many questions already Oct 19 06:46:01 Hehe Oct 19 06:46:06 Need a moderator. Oct 19 06:46:26 so the ustream link is actually working for some? Oct 19 06:46:34 Works fine for me. Oct 19 06:46:38 hmm Oct 19 06:47:17 i like this clean 'flat' looking icon style Oct 19 06:47:47 Orange selection highlights are terrifying. >_> Oct 19 06:48:12 maybe you should buy some color filter plastic so that it would filter out the orange? ;-) Oct 19 06:48:25 Or just get a 3rd party theme! :P Oct 19 06:48:37 n810, to wimax or not to wimax... Oct 19 06:48:37 * czr still is waiting for the 1st party Oct 19 06:48:49 unique311, no wimax afair Oct 19 06:48:57 Wimax is a waste of money. Oct 19 06:49:15 afaik even. Oct 19 06:49:24 I wonder if we'll ever see internet access as a public utility Oct 19 06:49:34 next year Oct 19 06:50:21 wimax != public utility Oct 19 06:50:27 thinking alot will be happening next year. 32GB SDs Oct 19 06:50:33 can wait for those Oct 19 06:50:40 Too bad about the MiniSD garbage. Oct 19 06:50:46 White_Flame, build it yourserlf with a wifi swarm Oct 19 06:51:04 by next year we might even see a decent snes emu :P Oct 19 06:51:14 heh pupnik Oct 19 06:51:19 on the tablet pupnik Oct 19 06:51:34 at least the N810's keyboard will double as game buttons :) Oct 19 06:51:53 i hope you can press dpad and a key at the same freakin time Oct 19 06:52:11 GeneralAntilles: whats the minisd garbage? Oct 19 06:52:24 Not having fullsize SD cards slots on the N810 Oct 19 06:53:32 slots....or slot Oct 19 06:53:40 only one slot i read. Oct 19 06:53:47 built in 2GB Oct 19 06:53:50 Yeah, only one MiniSD slot Oct 19 06:53:55 Which is a joke. Oct 19 06:54:25 well the size on Mini's will grow. Oct 19 06:54:30 i kind of like it - means there's a big space to dump data that the packager is sure will be there Oct 19 06:54:35 well, imagine how sqweezed it must be inside... Oct 19 06:54:58 I'd have taken some extra thickness for more stareg. Oct 19 06:55:01 storage* Oct 19 06:55:04 "Up to 2GB internal memory" What's with the "Up to"? Oct 19 06:55:30 "up to" is usually marketing newspeak for "less than or equal to" Oct 19 06:55:55 right, but if it's not a card slot, then either there will be different models with different amounts of RAM, or they haven't finalized specs I guess Oct 19 06:56:07 s/RAM/storage/ Oct 19 06:56:08 White_Flame meant: right, but if it's not a card slot, then either there will be different models with different amounts of storage, or they haven't finalized specs I guess Oct 19 06:56:51 hey, that's a neat bot Oct 19 06:56:52 miniSD's = 8GB so far.... Oct 19 06:57:03 but my existing SD cards are not mini Oct 19 06:57:23 nokia is thinking about the SD companies.. Oct 19 06:57:31 making sure they make money. Oct 19 06:57:37 fair enough Oct 19 06:57:58 Ha Oct 19 06:58:05 whoah what's that strange tablet in the background? Oct 19 06:58:14 http://europe.nokia.com/A4579470 nice to see appls labeled as community apps in between Oct 19 06:58:29 I'll be laughing at the poor schmucks limited to 8GB on the N810 while I have 32GB on my N800. :P Oct 19 06:58:39 pupnik, black-painted N800 Oct 19 07:00:30 i'm guessing theres still a hardware limit on how big SDs you can read on the N800, no matter how big they make them Oct 19 07:00:31 agree with thoughtfix on gps being more useful to more ppl Oct 19 07:00:41 was thinking of airbrushing my N800's cover..figure i didn't get rid of it yet, will probably never. Oct 19 07:00:50 gps is great for on the road Oct 19 07:01:23 would be cool if the gps software is available for the N800 Oct 19 07:01:36 truls, should be able to use 32GB SDHC cards just fine. Oct 19 07:02:01 nice Oct 19 07:02:19 my impression so far was 2GB was supported, 4GB might work if you're lucky Oct 19 07:02:34 The last limit was a software limit due to not having SDHC support in firmware Oct 19 07:02:37 but that has been changed Oct 19 07:02:44 new firmware fixed the issues Oct 19 07:02:45 so 16GB cards work fine right now Oct 19 07:02:56 brilliant! Oct 19 07:03:02 and 32GB should be ok in the future Oct 19 07:03:07 guess i should get a cheap big card while i'm here in taiwan then Oct 19 07:03:34 how do dev tools run on the n800? Oct 19 07:04:03 cool... multi-touch on the keyboard apparently Oct 19 07:04:14 is that both for internal and external SDs? Oct 19 07:05:09 The internal and external SD slots are identical in what they'll read/write. Oct 19 07:05:24 Hehe, pupnik, one would hope. :P Oct 19 07:05:57 it wasn't given - it could be press shift - then press letter for e.g. Oct 19 07:06:43 GeneralAntilles: great Oct 19 07:07:45 hahaha Oct 19 07:07:50 I see scheme, tcl/tk, python, etc in the maemo list, but no gcc package? Oct 19 07:08:32 White_Flame, gcc is part of sbox Oct 19 07:08:38 if you need gcc, you should be able to figure out how to put it on there :P Oct 19 07:08:43 although I might have misunderstood your question Oct 19 07:09:01 well, I don't have a n800 yet, just checking out what's available for it Oct 19 07:10:07 I'm presuming you can take basic source apps and do "./configure && make" right on the device? Oct 19 07:10:18 no, you can't Oct 19 07:10:55 development happens inside scratchbox, which you install on a x86 pc Oct 19 07:11:03 erm, wait Oct 19 07:11:16 this thing should be plenty powerful to do self-hosted development Oct 19 07:11:25 heck, the Jornada 720 does it fine with 200MHz and 32MB RAM Oct 19 07:12:35 lol.. your definition of "powerful" and "fine" must be way different than other peoples. Oct 19 07:12:36 hmm. there was some discussion about this on the devel list some time ago Oct 19 07:12:48 and I see the point. when hacking on software while on the road Oct 19 07:13:06 dpb_: the n800 is more powerful than desktops of not that long ago Oct 19 07:13:14 I'm wondering how magadan stumbled his way in there. >_> Oct 19 07:13:25 software has grown in that time too Oct 19 07:14:02 but not to that scale Oct 19 07:14:13 especially when you're talking about basic bootstrapping apps Oct 19 07:15:15 well, seeing as it is just linux, you can cross-compile for ARM and install, right? So I could cross-compile gcc and just slap over the binaries? Oct 19 07:15:24 i haven't heard of people using gcc on the device, but the packages are all there dpb_ Oct 19 07:16:03 hmm. I wonder whether building binutils & gcc would require much effort in ARMEL SDK target Oct 19 07:16:13 just to clarify, it's not necessarily for coding on-the-go, but just to make sure I can build & install anything that comes in linux source Oct 19 07:16:25 White_Flame, that's handled by the SDK Oct 19 07:16:39 White_Flame, so yes, you can, and you don't have to build your own cross-toolchain either Oct 19 07:16:44 there is a crosscompilation environment White_Flame - people develop for the tablets on their PCs Oct 19 07:17:16 but if you like ruby/python or even tcl/tk that's also an option Oct 19 07:17:54 hmm. is there some page about using python with bora somewhere? Oct 19 07:17:57 esp on the device. Oct 19 07:18:33 btw is orb server easy to set up on linux PC? Oct 19 07:18:48 It's Windows only. Oct 19 07:19:58 hehehe Oct 19 07:20:50 There aren't any decent transcoding on-demand solutions for non-Windows machines. Oct 19 07:21:23 GeneralAntilles, hmm ? Oct 19 07:21:48 There aren't any on-demand on-the-fly transcoding media servers available for Linux or OS X Oct 19 07:21:50 knots server + vlc 0.9 is starting to get there for me Oct 19 07:22:07 um funny, i run one every day GeneralAntilles :) Oct 19 07:22:28 GeneralAntilles, you're full of FUD Oct 19 07:22:34 just has trouble with some of my vids Oct 19 07:23:06 OK, for Linux, then. Oct 19 07:23:10 Point me to something for OS X Oct 19 07:23:16 It would be much appreciated. :) Oct 19 07:23:56 http://www.videolan.org/vlc/download-macosx.html Oct 19 07:24:03 That's not on-demand. Oct 19 07:24:13 with knots server it is Oct 19 07:24:30 but you'll need very latest vlc Oct 19 07:24:40 Can I get a link? :) Oct 19 07:24:43 I can't find it on google. Oct 19 07:26:14 http://nightlies.videolan.org/ Oct 19 07:26:33 I already have the latest VLC. Oct 19 07:26:40 Is knots something that's bundled with VLC? Oct 19 07:26:55 you have 0.9? Oct 19 07:27:00 Yessir. Oct 19 07:27:11 then you need knots server and client Oct 19 07:27:19 Which is what I need a link for. Oct 19 07:27:26 As I can't find any mention of it on google. Oct 19 07:27:52 link is down - it's in development Oct 19 07:28:07 So, this isn't actually something I can download and use right now? <_< Oct 19 07:28:08 i think jaffa just got something like that working last night too Oct 19 07:30:20 expert, since I'm full of FUD, do you have any recommendations that I could use. :) Oct 19 07:30:42 *sxpert Oct 19 07:31:28 mythtv does it too afaik, but i really dislike the setup of that Oct 19 07:36:37 Guess not. Oct 19 07:36:47 wb Oct 19 07:37:02 Do you have any recommendations for what I could use, sxpert? Oct 19 07:37:32 first, what are your requirements ? Oct 19 07:38:23 Well, I want to to be able to access my video collection on my primary machine from my N800, then have videos transcoded to MPEG4 @ 400x240 1200Kbps on the fly. Oct 19 07:38:45 vlc should be able to do that Oct 19 07:39:11 you'll need to build some VOD system I guess Oct 19 07:39:37 Right, which is exactly what I said Oct 19 07:39:44 and exactly what you called me full of "FUD" for. Oct 19 07:39:50 So, how am I full of FUD? >_> Oct 19 07:40:41 thanks for identifying a missing opensource / free software project. now get your hands dirty and build it :-) Oct 19 07:40:50 No time. Oct 19 07:40:58 I'll probably just roll something with PHP for my own use, though. Oct 19 07:41:10 I can call VLC from PHP for individual files. Oct 19 07:41:50 Making it exit cleanly and detecting early client-quits might be a little beyond me, though. Oct 19 07:41:52 01:18 < Jaffa> Woohoo! Perl-based on-demand transcoding and RSS feed into Video Center working :-). Apparently, it's like Orb but open source Oct 19 07:42:09 01:22 * Jaffa uploads it to http://www.bleb.org/software/maemo/mediaserv.pl.txt - will tidy release and announce it properly tomorrow. Now... it's time for bed. Oct 19 07:42:09 pupnik, heh Oct 19 07:42:10 Ha, JAFFA! Oct 19 07:42:30 Well, there you go. Oct 19 07:42:38 there *you* go Oct 19 07:42:58 *and* i could upload you a ruby-based solution right now but i don't want to step on sol's toes as he wrote it Oct 19 07:43:03 the thing exists. fresh from last night :-) Oct 19 07:43:48 I'd have to install ruby Oct 19 07:43:53 Now that's a pain. :P Oct 19 07:44:37 I can believe somebody hasn't already rolled something into VLC, though. Oct 19 07:45:04 that is kind of surprising Oct 19 07:45:06 there's something called "freeplayer" but that's aimed at my internet stb Oct 19 07:45:21 perhaps it could be hacked into submission Oct 19 07:45:38 btw, thanks, pupnik. :) Oct 19 07:46:18 Now I just need to get apache set up on here. Oct 19 07:46:51 hahaha Oct 19 07:47:26 Morning, all Oct 19 07:47:34 The mac mini that was my local server is running Leopard atm Oct 19 07:47:42 it doesn't have the horsepower for this, anyway. Oct 19 07:48:09 my vlc transcoding was running ok on a p3 950 mhz Oct 19 07:48:57 lmao @ 'package management' Oct 19 07:50:06 morning Jaffa - excited to see what your're doing with transcoding :) Oct 19 07:50:56 yeah - don't want to have my own client (like knots - which is still very cool), but integrate into VideoCenter, the browser and the built-in media player Oct 19 07:51:04 (or mplayer through VideoCenter) Oct 19 07:52:14 that's great! ppl will love you Oct 19 07:52:42 * Jaffa 's on-demand one works faster than real-time on a VIA Epia 1GHz C3 processor, equivalent to about an 800MHz or slower P3. Oct 19 07:53:10 The code is so ugly and full of debug output at the moment, but it seems much more stable than my initial prototype :) Oct 19 07:53:25 what transcodes on the server? Oct 19 07:54:58 hi there Oct 19 07:54:59 <_Monkey> privet, mik_ Oct 19 07:55:03 can anyone show me how to send a pg-up in dbclient or ssh? Oct 19 07:55:31 i dunnos Oct 19 07:58:02 ah yes i do mik_ Oct 19 07:58:21 mik_: hit x terminal menu, hit view, then select toolbar Oct 19 07:58:29 then you can hit pgup/pgdown Oct 19 08:03:54 ack, the development environment installation is so hit or miss with chinook using apt instead of a big rootstrap-download Oct 19 08:04:20 bah tell em there's no overclocking Oct 19 08:05:01 it's a power management issue - at various runlevels you get 400mhz ARM and lower speed DSP, or higher speed DSP and 333mhz arm Oct 19 08:07:42 pupnik: MPEG 2 Transport Streams from UK DVB-T. Oct 19 08:07:59 oh ok - live tv i get it Oct 19 08:08:27 what bandwidth would I need for a decent full res stream? Oct 19 08:08:37 i may use encoder and try that if its not a lot of bandwidth Oct 19 08:08:44 pupnik: thx Oct 19 08:08:46 i am running 440 atm Oct 19 08:08:51 i'll try Oct 19 08:08:56 440? Oct 19 08:09:01 kbs? Oct 19 08:09:03 kb/s Oct 19 08:09:06 er Oct 19 08:09:07 lol Oct 19 08:09:12 wait Oct 19 08:09:14 hrm Oct 19 08:09:27 i could do about 350 Oct 19 08:09:32 wouls that look ok? Oct 19 08:10:01 oh atm it's at 500 whatever - looks great Oct 19 08:10:10 sweet Oct 19 08:10:12 wmv2 codec ffmpeg Oct 19 08:10:23 im waiting on damn 64 bit drivers for my tuner card Oct 19 08:10:27 then ill get to work on that Oct 19 08:10:37 in a few days ill go to mmc card filesystem Oct 19 08:10:40 see if its any faster Oct 19 08:10:51 should I do 06, or hacker 07? Oct 19 08:10:56 07 has a few bugs Oct 19 08:10:57 meh Oct 19 08:11:01 Hacker is very much worth it. Oct 19 08:11:02 looks good though Oct 19 08:11:05 yea Oct 19 08:11:07 So much faster than 06 Oct 19 08:11:13 yea Oct 19 08:16:01 pupnik: but I've also transcoded downloaded DivX and ripped DVDs last night. Oct 19 08:16:03 i prefer crashing less than once a day, but that's just me Oct 19 08:16:11 lmfao Oct 19 08:16:13 Meh, used to that from IT OS 2005 ;-) Oct 19 08:17:32 ah nice Jaffa. What does the transcoding on the server side? Oct 19 08:17:40 jaffa does :-) Oct 19 08:17:42 Or are you transcoding non-real-time? Oct 19 08:33:30 Looks like it's using the 770-encode script Oct 19 08:33:35 which is mencoder, pupnik. Oct 19 08:39:16 pupnik: GeneralAntilles is right. Using my 770-encode Oct 19 08:48:44 hm, the default installed development environment is kinda... empty, no settings for the device or anything. is there a meta-package other than maemo-explicit to give you everything that's installed on a real n800? Oct 19 08:49:54 truls, the SDK is empty Oct 19 08:50:00 kind of empty Oct 19 08:50:05 and no, no meta-packages Oct 19 08:50:23 it's not a full device emulator, it's just an SDK to build your own software (more or less) Oct 19 08:51:15 ah, ok, i kinda thought it used the same package repos as the full device Oct 19 08:51:33 and so gave you the same full os Oct 19 08:51:42 well, yes and no. but not all software that is on the device is in a "repo" Oct 19 08:51:49 ok Oct 19 08:52:04 so not everything is upgradable? Oct 19 08:52:08 so to speak? Oct 19 08:52:10 most of it comes directly with the rootfs when you flash the device Oct 19 08:52:20 it is. but you reflash the device with a new release of ITOS Oct 19 08:52:20 ok Oct 19 08:52:24 ah Oct 19 08:52:26 not via Application manager/repos Oct 19 08:52:45 so what kinda stuff is in the rootfs? Oct 19 08:52:54 everything that you don't find in the SDK ;-) Oct 19 08:52:54 apps too? Oct 19 08:53:00 heh, ok Oct 19 08:55:20 czr: thanks for clearing that up Oct 19 08:55:30 np Oct 19 08:56:20 annoying scratchbox, keeps complaining i don't close my targets, so i cant change to another one Oct 19 08:57:00 if you're using armel, then I at least have to use sb-conf killall, since qemu hangs Oct 19 08:57:21 but you should check that you don't have other terminals open which are using the same target at the same time. Oct 19 09:01:08 i keep doing the killall and i've closed all terminals Oct 19 09:01:13 doesnt help Oct 19 09:02:19 thanks Oct 19 09:02:29 finding the hung qemu helped Oct 19 09:04:59 killall ftw Oct 19 09:05:13 killall -9 normally though. qemu has mental issues. Oct 19 09:08:01 yeah, realized that Oct 19 09:38:42 are chinook repos supposed to be updated ? Oct 19 09:38:48 ping Oct 19 09:38:52 anyone here in .fi? Oct 19 09:38:58 since i installed it, apt-get dist-upgrade never updated anything Oct 19 09:39:45 i guess you do a apt-get update first Oct 19 09:39:51 did it Oct 19 09:39:58 no one here is in .fi? :( Oct 19 09:40:21 Not I. Oct 19 09:40:43 \o Oct 19 09:42:51 I saw this in a slashdot comment: Oct 19 09:42:52 The N800 is underclocked because of battery life. The software running on the N810 will be available for the N800 in mid-November. Improvements in it allow the N800 to be clocked back to 400 MHz, which will supposedly happen with the update. Oct 19 09:42:56 is it true? Oct 19 09:43:10 yes Oct 19 09:43:23 ok Oct 19 09:43:49 Hehe, yet another reason the N810 is a waste of money. Oct 19 09:43:52 ooh, really? Oct 19 09:43:59 they're going to magically clock the n800 up? Oct 19 09:44:10 there's actually a lot of magic involved Oct 19 09:44:11 pure, black magic Oct 19 09:44:22 it dynamically changes the clock speed based on load Oct 19 09:44:25 or something Oct 19 09:44:25 <_Monkey> i think something is wacky here Oct 19 09:44:28 btw, is there any way at all to at least view a Word file with most formatting in tact on a n800? Oct 19 09:44:32 _monkey forget something Oct 19 09:44:33 <_Monkey> timeless: I forgot something Oct 19 09:44:35 There's a little leprechaun in the next firmware update. Oct 19 09:44:39 _monkey something is Oct 19 09:44:40 <_Monkey> OK, timeless. Oct 19 09:44:43 * flip^ grins at GeneralAntilles Oct 19 09:45:09 timeless: why are asking for people in .fi on irc, when you are sitting in the people in .fi =) Oct 19 09:47:24 because it's not work relaed Oct 19 09:47:57 btw, my t key is mostly busted Oct 19 09:48:24 * timeless looks for tim@samoff.com Oct 19 09:48:42 Time for a new keyboard? :P Oct 19 09:48:47 IBM Model M FTW Oct 19 09:49:30 nah, time to ask IT for a new laptop :) Oct 19 09:49:38 and i hate ibm keyboards, so i just want a new dell :) Oct 19 09:49:54 Or fix it yerself. Oct 19 09:50:02 TPC: according to docs posted yesterday 400mhz was possible long ago, given a lower DSP clock to save power. Oct 19 09:50:11 *posted here Oct 19 09:57:05 yeah, basically you trade cpu speed for dsp speed Oct 19 09:57:27 Since I'm pretty much never using the DSP, sounds like a fair tradeoff. ;) Oct 19 10:02:55 anyway it's curious that thoughtfix saw same bogomips figure - maybe it boots up at 333mhz Oct 19 10:04:08 what US stores will be selling the N810? I'm in the states in December and might pick one up if I can. Oct 19 10:04:22 Pretty much any big computer store? Oct 19 10:06:10 Not really Oct 19 10:06:20 Probably only CompUSA Oct 19 10:06:27 Could be more Oct 19 10:06:35 Since the N810 is supposed to be mainstream Oct 19 10:06:47 doublec, better off having buy.com ship you an N800 Oct 19 10:06:50 MUCH cheaper. Oct 19 10:07:04 Basically the same specs Oct 19 10:07:18 and unless you really need a keyboard. Oct 19 10:07:56 that's gambling with customs Oct 19 10:08:11 Is it really? Oct 19 10:08:16 I think the keyboard will be very useful for chatting Oct 19 10:08:18 * GeneralAntilles is not an overseas traveler. Oct 19 10:08:36 I'm frustrated every time I have to use the on-screen keyboard on my N800 Oct 19 10:08:43 Actually, I should clarify, have buy.com ship an N800 to somebody you know in the states. Oct 19 10:08:47 and pick it up from them. Oct 19 10:08:52 Really, ptman? Oct 19 10:08:53 I think I might like the keyboard for writing text, too. Like emails, etc. Oct 19 10:08:58 On-screen board is great. Oct 19 10:09:04 Just gotta use your fingertips. Oct 19 10:09:05 And for terminal use. Oct 19 10:09:14 no tactile feedback, I typo every 20 chars or so Oct 19 10:09:18 and non-hildon apps :) Oct 19 10:09:38 and I use the terminal a lot Oct 19 10:09:58 There's always bluetooth keyboards. Oct 19 10:10:04 basically the N800 is the first really attractive maemo device for me Oct 19 10:10:18 and still I got the two other ones too Oct 19 10:10:25 I could get 2 N800s for the price of an N810 Oct 19 10:10:32 GeneralAntilles: which are about as big as the device itself Oct 19 10:10:40 I have an N800. I'm keen to try out the N810 too. Oct 19 10:10:47 and way more functional than a thumbboard. :P Oct 19 10:10:51 I'll give the one I don't prefer as a gift :) Oct 19 10:11:01 =) Oct 19 10:11:10 I'll keep the N800 as a skype phone Oct 19 10:11:23 shouldn't OS2008 support bluetooth headsets? Oct 19 10:11:28 Yeah, my two 770s are couch/bed-puters. Oct 19 10:11:41 Yeah, thoughtfix was using a BT headset on his tonight. Oct 19 10:12:05 that's a really big improvement Oct 19 10:13:43 and you don't even have to buy an N810 to get it! :D Oct 19 10:14:07 yeah, Nokia really learned from the 770 Oct 19 10:14:14 * GeneralAntilles wants to poke people that use "N770" in the eye with a stick. Oct 19 10:14:31 that's not so bad, is it? Oct 19 10:14:42 I'm anal. ;) Oct 19 10:14:58 I don't remember how I heard about the 770 way back in 2005, but I'm really glad I did. Oct 19 10:15:18 isn't reading slashdot enough =P Oct 19 10:15:35 Yeah, that was probably it. Oct 19 10:28:27 morning all Oct 19 10:29:52 Hey Oct 19 10:31:34 mornin lardman Oct 19 10:32:33 hi chaps Oct 19 10:33:35 Hi lardman !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Oct 19 10:34:00 hi Big_B Oct 19 10:40:56 Anybody has a good recommendation for a introduction to bash for absolute novices? Oct 19 10:41:03 I keep running across people that want to learn Oct 19 10:41:10 but haven't found a really good guide to link them to. Oct 19 10:42:16 wow, more people here than i expected :) Oct 19 10:42:18 hello! Oct 19 10:42:34 GeneralAntilles: using or programming? Oct 19 10:42:41 Using Oct 19 10:42:52 Something for an absolute shell noob to learn with. Oct 19 10:43:01 <|tbb|> anyone succesfully get connected to a win 2003 server trough vpn over the n800? Oct 19 10:45:04 the best way to learn bash is simply to try it Oct 19 10:45:39 Does anyone now a small script or program to download the latest PDF newspapers to my memorycard every morning? Oct 19 10:45:47 (on a 770 Oct 19 10:46:00 or perhaps some tips to make one myself Oct 19 10:46:24 Sebastius, it would be site dependent, but pretty easy to make yourself Oct 19 10:46:26 Maybe, TPC, but it's not easy to start when all you get is "command not found" Oct 19 10:46:37 does anyone have experience with evas or edje? Oct 19 10:46:49 GeneralAntilles, instruct the user to do a ls /bin Oct 19 10:46:59 he will have plenty of commands to play around with Oct 19 10:47:05 just make sure he isn't root :P Oct 19 10:47:14 Pft Oct 19 10:47:18 I'd rather give them a guide. Oct 19 10:47:25 TPC, yeah i know, every site uses a different url. Most are simply based on the date, one has the weekday (ie Monday) in it. Oct 19 10:47:28 'advanced bash scripting guide' is pretty decent Oct 19 10:47:38 GeneralAntilles, google for that. it has plenty of examples Oct 19 10:47:43 any direction you can point me in? Oct 19 10:47:49 Sebastius, for myself I have a cron job running every morning Oct 19 10:48:00 that rips the news from a radio stream Oct 19 10:48:07 then scp:s it to my N800 Oct 19 10:48:09 cool! Oct 19 10:48:24 you use the PC in between? Oct 19 10:48:39 yeah, the cron job that rips the stream is running on my desktop Oct 19 10:48:47 then it encodes to vorbis, and scp:s to the N800 Oct 19 10:48:57 allright, thing is, most of the time I won't bother starting up my desktop Oct 19 10:49:15 is there a way to do this entirely on the 770? Oct 19 10:49:18 I have mine running at all times Oct 19 10:49:34 I don't think there is a cron package for maemo Oct 19 10:49:53 doesn't need to be cron'd, i'd gladly start the app manually Oct 19 10:49:59 ah Oct 19 10:50:05 well in that case a simple bash script will do it Oct 19 10:50:07 i just don't want to navigate all over the world Oct 19 10:50:17 still none of the lucky few with an n810 have provided dmesg output Oct 19 10:50:22 grrr! Oct 19 10:50:39 Sebastius, link me to the newspaper in question and I'll whip together something simple Oct 19 10:51:05 TPC: PM Oct 19 10:51:39 oh and thanks! Oct 19 10:52:18 I haven't recived any PM Oct 19 10:52:46 Hehe, lardman, should been on this morning with thoughtfix. ;) Oct 19 10:53:41 <|tbb|> will the new os defintly unlock the n800 processor freq. limit Oct 19 10:54:04 99% yes Oct 19 10:54:32 TPC, that's weird Oct 19 10:54:44 GeneralAntilles: he published that info? Oct 19 10:54:52 anyway, the url is this: http://www.metropoint.com/ftp/20071019_MetroHolland.pdf Oct 19 10:54:54 is your nick registered? Oct 19 10:55:01 He was doing a live demo of the device Oct 19 10:55:06 only registered nicks can send/receive PM's can't they? Oct 19 10:55:07 you coulda asked for it, I'm sure Oct 19 10:55:08 <|tbb|> then that would harm the battery life? Oct 19 10:55:17 actually, try tabletblog.com and drop an e-mail. Oct 19 10:55:59 Much better energy-conserving procedures under OS2008, so, no |tbb|. Oct 19 10:56:03 good idea Oct 19 10:56:25 or the guy on maemo-apps.org has one, too. Oct 19 10:58:05 allright, registered Oct 19 10:59:06 Good morning lardman. How's the Vorbis dsp task coming along? Oct 19 10:59:54 hi derf Oct 19 11:00:11 I've been trying to debug my first attempt Oct 19 11:00:25 Oooh, sweet. Oct 19 11:00:40 in which I chopped up the processing so the ARM does the ogg stream side, then passes packets to the DSP to process in one go Oct 19 11:01:06 but it's a bit more complex than that, as for some functions - header reading for setup, the DSP needs more than one packet Oct 19 11:01:07 * GeneralAntilles gives lardamn an "atta-boy". Oct 19 11:01:32 Lardma : how to create and compile maemomm (C++) project on Eclipse IDE ???? Oct 19 11:01:38 lardman Oct 19 11:02:01 anyway, it's a pita to debug on the DSP - I'm using dbg() which simply sends some text over to the ARM to display in dmesg output. But my dsptask is segfaulting the dsp kernel which kills the buffer Oct 19 11:02:08 Big_B: no idea, sorry Oct 19 11:02:09 please give me a good tutorial link Oct 19 11:02:39 So I was planning to compile it all on the ARM with some glue/emulation code to handle the dspgateway bit, then see what's causing the segfault, etc. Oct 19 11:02:54 Yeah... I once spent 8 hours debugging 20 lines of C++ on VxWorks because of similar problems. Oct 19 11:03:04 Embedded programming is "fun"! Oct 19 11:03:30 But.... ssvb/Serge just sent me some code for an mp3 task, and it creates a thread and uses semaphores to get the data - this sounds far nicer (I'm not sure my chopping up of Tremor will work) Oct 19 11:04:08 so I've started another attempt to produce a threaded tremor for the DSP. Before that I need to work out why the mp3 task doesn't run though. So that's about where I'm at :) Oct 19 11:05:39 possibly a better description here: http://people.bath.ac.uk/enpsgp/nokia770/ plus links to the code (though not the chopped up code as if I can move away from this Neuros code I'd prefer that) Oct 19 11:06:22 if I need to go the chopped up route, then I have permission to release it, but I do worry a bit about the mix of licenses and contributors so would prefer a clean(ish) room job Oct 19 11:06:33 Sebastius, ah Oct 19 11:06:39 Sebastius, well, that URL format makes it very easy Oct 19 11:06:58 assuming you have xterm and wget installed Oct 19 11:07:06 just run this: wget http://www.metropoint.com/ftp/`date +%Y%m%d`_MetroHolland.pdf Oct 19 11:08:04 cool :d Oct 19 11:08:28 make it an alias by putting this in .profile in the home dir Oct 19 11:08:39 alias getnews='wget http://www.metropoint.com/ftp/`date +%Y%m%d`_MetroHolland.pdf' Oct 19 11:08:47 and where does it download the file? Oct 19 11:09:14 and you can just run getnews to get it (after restarting the xterm) Oct 19 11:09:25 it will download it to the current dir Oct 19 11:10:26 derf: there may be issues with theora on the n800 - I can't work out how to do framebuffer access yet... Oct 19 11:10:37 derf: on the 770 framebuffer access works :) Oct 19 11:13:12 Well, I mean, if Nokia isn't using the dsp for color conversion and scaling, maybe we shouldn't be using the framebuffer on the N800. Oct 19 11:13:39 TPC, i'm missing something, how do i edit the .profile file? Oct 19 11:14:32 yes, I understand that they get better throughput decoding on the ARM than the DSP, but that's not to say one couldn't do just colourspace conversion on the DSP (arbitrary scaling is already supported on the N800 LCD controller) Oct 19 11:15:13 No, I think it'd be great. Oct 19 11:15:15 If it worked. Oct 19 11:16:02 derf: well I'm going to write a colourspace/scaling dsp task for Serge to test in mplayer with the 770, we'll see... Oct 19 11:21:20 is the 770 hardware quite different from the N800? Oct 19 11:22:03 doublec: yes Oct 19 11:24:02 doublec: but what exactly do you want to do? The DSPs are the same (for all I know anyway) for example Oct 19 11:24:42 lardman: I was just curious - from what you said about being able to access the framebuffer on the 770 but not the N800 Oct 19 11:25:40 ah, the 770 appears to have the framebuffer "exported" to the DSP, while the n800 doesn't Oct 19 11:25:56 I think this is done in the DSP kernel (for which I don't have all the source) Oct 19 11:26:27 But I think the issue is that I need to define a memory region to export it (in the n800, it's already done on the 770) and there's no room Oct 19 11:26:52 I need to see if I can override the built-in memory regions Oct 19 11:27:31 ~lart ITT advanced search - been sitting there doing nothing for ages Oct 19 11:27:32 * infobot grabs a large, mis-shapened log, with squirrels, and beats ITT advanced search - been sitting there doing nothing until only the nuts remain ... which the squirrels run off with for ages Oct 19 11:28:31 :) Oct 19 11:28:46 hah Oct 19 11:29:09 maybe you should get the N810 and then attach it to the shark for lazer fun. Oct 19 11:29:24 I'm sure it would be more entertaining than the log-business Oct 19 11:33:07 Still looking for a Jaiku invite. =P Oct 19 11:33:42 allright, i got a few lines of bash working. Can anyone give me a hint on how to make it a button or something on my 770, so that i don't have to start Xterm every morning? Oct 19 11:34:33 Yeah, how do you bundle bash scripts into applications for the Application Menu? Oct 19 11:34:55 same as a usual application I imagine, provide the .desktop file etc. Oct 19 11:35:10 OK, how do you do that? :D Oct 19 11:35:36 Look in the scratchbox tutorial - it shows you how to create the necessary files Oct 19 11:36:21 cool Oct 19 11:36:37 final question (i hope), where is the MMC located in the linux tree? Oct 19 11:36:50 /media/mmcX Oct 19 11:36:58 where X is 1 or 2 Oct 19 11:38:29 GeneralAntilles: search for "The .desktop File" in http://maemo.org/development/documentation/tutorials/Maemo_tutorial_bora.html#deployment Oct 19 11:38:45 Thanks, lardman. Oct 19 11:38:51 np Oct 19 11:38:55 yeah, thanks :d Oct 19 11:52:04 * timely_changelog sighs Oct 19 11:52:08 "this may take a while" Oct 19 11:53:58 hi Oct 19 11:54:10 how can I build the whole system from source? Oct 19 11:54:50 Astro, what do you mean by 'system'? Oct 19 11:55:04 and why. Oct 19 11:55:27 There's binary-only stuff on the device. Oct 19 11:55:31 oh Oct 19 11:56:14 I'm yet undecided - is there a way to try Maemo in qemu? Oct 19 11:57:22 Dunno, but I can recommend it. Oct 19 11:57:33 Just don't bother with the N810 unless you really need the kebyoard Oct 19 11:57:38 N800 from buy.com is much cheaper. Oct 19 11:57:39 GeneralAntilles, where's your pedantry now? it's maemo :-) Oct 19 11:58:01 Astro, maemo is not a device emulator. it's just the SDK. so you won't be able to use it for pretty much anything else than building software Oct 19 11:59:13 Hehe, I didn't realize I had pedantry. :D Oct 19 12:00:13 the keyboard and integrated GPS makes all the difference to me Oct 19 12:01:04 Yeah, maybe, but not at twice the price. >_> Oct 19 12:01:31 even if they were both the same price I would still get the N800 Oct 19 12:01:41 GeneralAntilles, 770 vs N770 :-) Oct 19 12:01:47 Especially when you consider that bluetooth GPS is much more accurate and a bluetooth keyboard is much easier to type on. Oct 19 12:02:00 because I have tons of SD cards Oct 19 12:02:01 I want built-in kb Oct 19 12:02:09 and the 810 can only use minisd Oct 19 12:02:11 Hehe, true enough, czr. Oct 19 12:02:14 so all my SD cards would be useless Oct 19 12:02:20 each to their own Oct 19 12:02:22 TPC, useless with what? Oct 19 12:02:23 Yeah dual-SDHC is a big advantage, too. Oct 19 12:02:33 The fullscreen keyboard is quite good for me. Oct 19 12:02:40 The N810 handles full size SD cards. Oct 19 12:02:44 I find it quite painful Oct 19 12:02:49 alterego, no it doesn't Oct 19 12:02:55 That's not what the spec says. Oct 19 12:02:57 at least not according to nokias website Oct 19 12:03:15 The spec is somewhat vague but it says that you can use mini/micro SD cards with an adapter. Oct 19 12:03:26 No, alterego, it's MiniSD only Oct 19 12:03:31 alterego, it says that you can use mini, or micro with adapter Oct 19 12:03:32 Shit. Oct 19 12:03:39 Oh well :) Oct 19 12:03:42 Yeah, thoughtfix did a demo this morning Oct 19 12:03:45 It was quite clear. Oct 19 12:03:56 I guess if I get accepted to the device program I'll use the N800 as a mobile storage unit ;) Oct 19 12:04:01 alterego: i have a proto right here, it doesn't accept sd Oct 19 12:04:12 timely_changelog, right, my mistake I guess ;) Oct 19 12:04:20 * sxpert-work buys micro anyhow, they can fit in everything with the proper adapter :-) Oct 19 12:04:23 and storage is much more important than GPS or keyboard Oct 19 12:04:29 which is why I'll stick to the N800 Oct 19 12:04:41 besides, I already have a bluetooth GPS Oct 19 12:04:42 Yeah, the two SD cards in the N800 are a huge benifit. Oct 19 12:04:44 TPC: it all depends on your usage Oct 19 12:04:49 sxpert-work, yep Oct 19 12:04:58 TPC: I intend to use it as a surveying station. Oct 19 12:05:20 so storage is less important than the compactness from integrated gps/keyboard Oct 19 12:06:02 To be honest, for me, capacity is more important than what the media format is .. Oct 19 12:06:15 So, as long as I can get good size mini SD cards I'm happy. Oct 19 12:06:18 MiniSD < SD Oct 19 12:06:33 4GB is what's reasonably available right now Oct 19 12:06:35 I have yet to fill up the 1G micro-sd I have in my garmin GPS Oct 19 12:06:36 well, my other devices use SD Oct 19 12:06:37 versus 16GB Oct 19 12:06:41 the camera for example Oct 19 12:06:56 having all devices use the same format is an advantage Oct 19 12:07:10 TPC, you should be able to run an external USB card reader through USB on the device. Oct 19 12:07:11 one of the things I use my N800 for is as a larger screen to view the pictures I took with my camera Oct 19 12:07:27 alterego, where did you get that idea? Oct 19 12:07:28 tpc: does your camera support usb? Oct 19 12:07:31 Without a powered hub. Oct 19 12:07:45 TPC, if you enable OTG host mode using the kernel sources. Oct 19 12:07:57 timely_changelog, yes Oct 19 12:08:05 Get/make a USB sex changer cable. Oct 19 12:08:13 And you're sorted. Oct 19 12:08:19 sex changer! Oct 19 12:08:19 I suppose that would work Oct 19 12:08:27 gender changer? Oct 19 12:08:32 but putting in the card is faster Oct 19 12:08:33 Bow chika wow wow Oct 19 12:08:40 and I don't have to have both devices up Oct 19 12:08:40 lardman, there's a difference? Oct 19 12:09:02 Gender is a personality thing, while sex is a biological/genetic thing. :P Oct 19 12:09:09 alterego: not really, but it should be called a gender changer, sex changes are a bit different... :D Oct 19 12:09:27 lardman, sex and gender mean the same thing in this context :P Oct 19 12:09:31 yes Oct 19 12:09:45 just sounds strange :) Oct 19 12:09:54 the term "gender changer" is problematic Oct 19 12:10:07 how so? Oct 19 12:10:23 well, for the reasons you guys just went over Oct 19 12:10:46 oh I see, I thought there was a problem with "gender" Oct 19 12:10:52 some folks find the whole labelling of cables as male and female to be offensive, but i don't quite understand their viewpoint Oct 19 12:11:25 ire they the same people who don't use the useful gender spcific terms actor and actress? :) Oct 19 12:11:32 I bet I'm gonna be really unlucky and not get accepted into the device program. Oct 19 12:11:51 500 units and god knows how many applicants ^_^ Oct 19 12:12:05 well, *i* don't use such terms, so it's not a complete overlap Oct 19 12:12:07 replicants Oct 19 12:12:17 hey alterego Oct 19 12:12:24 500 is quite a few actually. Didn't they have 200 last time? Oct 19 12:12:28 Hey czr, how are you doing this fine day? Oct 19 12:12:29 there aren't 5000 garage projects Oct 19 12:12:39 there aren't 500 garage projects Oct 19 12:12:51 so i don't see any reason to complain or worry, just apply Oct 19 12:12:52 timely_changelog, it's open to everyone not just developers. Oct 19 12:13:04 alterego, so far so good. or something. didn't sleep too much, but still going on strong Oct 19 12:13:04 not true Oct 19 12:13:06 I can't get one Oct 19 12:13:14 your a Nokian? Oct 19 12:13:15 (Nokians are explicitly banned) Oct 19 12:13:20 timely_changelog, probably because you're a Nokian :P Oct 19 12:13:24 * lardman can't spell any more Oct 19 12:13:39 timely_changelog, what are you complaining about you get your units for free :P Oct 19 12:13:53 I'm not complaining, merely noting Oct 19 12:13:58 ;) Oct 19 12:14:00 * timely_changelog goes back to noting changes from change logs Oct 19 12:14:04 Heh Oct 19 12:14:21 czr, you still working on the documentation? Oct 19 12:17:12 bloody yes sir Oct 19 12:17:34 had to redo about 1/3 of the already published stuff (I wasn't working on that before) Oct 19 12:17:48 but at least the first part seems in better shape now Oct 19 12:20:08 wha-hey I see a gap in the n800's memory entry table, framebuffer here we come Oct 19 12:20:44 * czr adds some padding around lardman so that he can be more comfortable inside the buffer Oct 19 12:21:21 alterego, when will you throw out the final version out of the window? Oct 19 12:23:32 thanks czr Oct 19 12:23:43 * lardman is off for lunch/may work from home this arvo Oct 19 12:24:28 czr, any time now ;) Oct 19 12:25:00 I'm working on making ruby-osso more rubyesque. Oct 19 12:25:09 And documentat/tests Oct 19 12:25:20 cool Oct 19 12:43:48 a question, i've made a bash script executable. To have it in my Task Navigator, do i only have to make a shortcut or something? Oh, on a N770 btw :P. I've tried reading the mameo application tutorial, but am a bit lost with it. Oct 19 13:06:41 * timely_changelog frowns Oct 19 13:06:43 sp3000: got a second? Oct 19 13:06:50 why would someone want to fork maemo mapper? Oct 19 13:07:01 db48x? Oct 19 13:07:20 sp3000: what's the easiest way to make the n800 not suspend while it's on ac power? Oct 19 13:07:49 db48x: suspend as in what symptom Oct 19 13:08:12 as in the screen goes dark, and I can no longer interact with it via VNC Oct 19 13:08:45 <|tbb|> search acmonitor on itt forum Oct 19 13:09:35 |tbb|: cool, I'll check that out Oct 19 13:11:48 * sp3000 wonders which font the horribly ugly jagged sans all over the web on this desktop is Oct 19 13:12:05 * sp3000 has helvetica and arial for candidates Oct 19 13:12:15 timely_changelog: IIRC, the maemo mapper source code /was/ one big .c file Oct 19 13:12:51 I read somewhere that maemo mappers source code would be split into multiple files for version 2.0 Oct 19 13:13:09 They're unhappy with how it works? Oct 19 13:13:09 Have a major feature they want to implement. Oct 19 13:13:10 Who knows :P Oct 19 13:13:28 would be easier to just make a patch Oct 19 13:16:05 hmm Oct 19 13:16:10 acmonitor doesn't quite do it Oct 19 13:16:22 db48x, if you're writing a program to do it you can use the osso API it has a function that keeps the backlight on. Oct 19 13:16:32 Though you have to call it every 60 seconds. Oct 19 13:16:36 alterego, I actually just wrote one :-) Oct 19 13:16:37 hrm Oct 19 13:16:43 part of the part2 of the material actually. Oct 19 13:16:51 :) Oct 19 13:17:14 <|tbb|> you can set it with gconf hack Oct 19 13:17:23 all I want to do is run this thing unattended, but I suppose I can leave a very simple program running Oct 19 13:17:30 timely_changelog: ooh, a "let's do a source reorg" fork! :D Oct 19 13:17:35 those are the best Oct 19 13:18:33 db48x: What part does acmonitor not quite do? Oct 19 13:19:03 derf: it still suspends Oct 19 13:19:06 |tbb|: details? Oct 19 13:19:28 You're supposed to set a really long timeout. Oct 19 13:19:31 hi. Are there any compilation of docs about maemo? I want to read they in train, no inet... Oct 19 13:19:44 Or presumably a timeout of 0 would disable it. Oct 19 13:20:09 that's worth a try Oct 19 13:20:12 I don't think a 0 timeout works... Oct 19 13:20:25 All acmonitor does is maintain separate settings for AC and battery power. Oct 19 13:20:28 You still have to actually set them. Oct 19 13:20:56 derf: I understand that Oct 19 13:20:58 <|tbb|> with gconf u can set the timeout Oct 19 13:21:23 the point is that I want it to stay on forever, so that I don't have to interact with it every so often Oct 19 13:21:51 if someone makes an app like that I would be interested in it as well Oct 19 13:22:16 thats how my old pda worked, if it was on AC the screen remained on unless you turned it off manually Oct 19 13:22:53 Well you could probably set it to over 500 hours without problems. Oct 19 13:23:08 How close an approximation of "forever" do you need? Oct 19 13:23:12 ok, but then I have to remember to touch it every 500 hours Oct 19 13:23:17 until I unplug it Oct 19 13:23:40 If you can't manage to touch it once a month... Oct 19 13:24:17 I agree that this isn't exactly a typical usage pattern Oct 19 13:25:07 easy enough to make an applet that sets a timer for 59s Oct 19 13:25:24 Anyway, "500 hours" assumes they internally keep it as milliseconds. Oct 19 13:25:44 If it's actually used as seconds, you can go up to about 60 years. Oct 19 13:26:00 I'm not sure why "Never" isn't an option in settings Oct 19 13:27:05 probably because there's not an easy way to do that with the gconf value Oct 19 13:27:33 well, a timeout of 0 wouldn't make much sense when interpreted literally Oct 19 13:27:57 pupnik: toolbar as pgup doesnÄÄ't work in ssh + screen + irssi Oct 19 13:28:05 in fact it won't let you set the timeout to less than a minute Oct 19 13:28:18 can anyone show me how to send a pg-up in irssi in screen in ssh in xterminal to scroll up? Oct 19 13:28:22 db48x: Yes it will. Oct 19 13:29:45 derf: it won't let me select '30 seconds' or '1 minute', so that seems like a natural conclusion :) Oct 19 13:29:45 http://rafb.net/p/ztKqUf12.html Oct 19 13:30:00 anyway Oct 19 13:30:03 Funny. It lets me select them. Oct 19 13:30:07 Sounds like a personal problem to me. Oct 19 13:33:19 derf, maybe you just think it lets you select them.. Oct 19 13:33:56 so, there are no pdf docs available, only on site? Oct 19 13:33:58 ok, I used gconf to add a few mor values, but it won't let me select 0 for the blank timeout Oct 19 13:34:50 czr: I also probably just think I can count to ten and then it dims the display. Oct 19 13:35:11 derf, funny thing. me too Oct 19 13:35:17 bah, busybox doesn't have fc Oct 19 13:36:57 ahh, I see Oct 19 13:37:17 it disables any selections in the blank time dropdown that are smaller than your selection in the dim time dropdown Oct 19 13:38:36 Yes. Oct 19 13:39:00 * Tak files a bug Oct 19 13:39:08 However, setting it to 0 does not appear to actually work. Oct 19 13:39:11 It still dims at 10. Oct 19 13:39:36 yea Oct 19 13:39:37 yeah - I tried that Oct 19 13:39:55 * Tak made a home applet to futz with power management settings Oct 19 13:43:11 Hmmm Oct 19 13:43:38 oops Oct 19 13:43:54 I accidentally copied an x86-64 firefox to my n800 Oct 19 13:44:59 Heh Oct 19 13:45:03 copy qemu too, and run the firefox from there :) Oct 19 13:45:28 (don't know if they have support for emulating x86_64 from arm, though) Oct 19 13:45:41 heh, that'd be fun Oct 19 13:46:29 lol Oct 19 13:54:54 sp3000: fwiw, i'm slowly fixing http://swift/~timeless/blog/news/9/ Oct 19 13:55:11 atm, that has a list of all the changes i expect to mention Oct 19 13:55:26 if it looks like something obvious is missing, please send me an email (or poke me monday?) Oct 19 13:55:41 for everyone else, here are 549 lines in the document Oct 19 13:56:08 400 of them need to be replaced with English Oct 19 13:56:33 i think if i'm lucky, i'll be done in 2 business days (wednesday morning) Oct 19 13:59:38 db48x: So, if you set your dim timeout to 0, then reboot the device, it appears to work. Oct 19 13:59:58 wow, really? Oct 19 14:00:11 It's been sitting here a few minutes and it hasn't dimmed yet. Oct 19 14:00:18 does it need to be a hard reboot? (e.g. unplugged) Oct 19 14:00:31 Oh, wait, there it went. Oct 19 14:00:36 I wonder what the actual timeout is now. Oct 19 14:00:38 heh, doh! Oct 19 14:00:59 rand() * rand() Oct 19 14:04:16 yea, I already tried that Oct 19 14:04:30 it seemed to use 2 minutes and 5 minutes Oct 19 14:04:46 Yeah. Oct 19 14:05:06 Well, I mean, 60 years should be enough, right? Oct 19 14:05:20 so either it remembered the previous settings, or those are the defaults Oct 19 14:05:45 No, those are the defaults. Oct 19 14:05:50 Because that is not what mine were set to previously. Oct 19 14:06:03 either way it's already special-casing 0 seconds, so we should see about changing the behavior Oct 19 14:06:39 File a bug! Oct 19 14:07:44 who's using sardine ? is there the new hildon input method framework in sardine ? Oct 19 14:09:00 yeah from 2006 Oct 19 14:09:23 heh Oct 19 14:09:24 db48x: bug 425 fwiw Oct 19 14:09:25 <_Monkey> Bug 425 might be found at https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=425 Oct 19 14:09:33 it doesn't convert the time into years Oct 19 14:09:41 the monkey should learn to summarize bugs or something Oct 19 14:09:43 I have to set it to 5256000 minutes Oct 19 14:09:49 not to mention report changes perhaps? Oct 19 14:10:09 it's not like we have so much it would flood :) Oct 19 14:38:47 hola Oct 19 14:40:49 MiaO Oct 19 14:43:43 sp3000, I can make more bugs! Oct 19 14:43:52 seriously, summarization would be nice Oct 19 14:43:56 also new bug reports Oct 19 14:44:47 we should bribe wolf into running a mozbot :P Oct 19 14:46:53 anyone here who is a bit more familiar with Bash scripting than me? Oct 19 14:48:32 Sebastius: you can launch bash scripts from menu with load-applet-run or osso-statusbar-cpu programs Oct 19 14:48:36 load-applet-run Oct 19 14:48:37 <_Monkey> load-applet-run is John Costigan's awesome toolbar applet to monitor cpu and launch programs: http://gnuite.com:8080/nokia770/ Oct 19 14:48:42 osso-statusbar-cpu Oct 19 14:48:43 <_Monkey> somebody said osso-statusbar-cpu was at http://www.maemo-hackers.org/wiki/OssoStatusbarCpu Oct 19 14:49:03 cool! thanks Oct 19 14:49:59 for logging purposes, it's "thanks pupnik!" :) Oct 19 14:50:12 another question, in Basic (yeah i know) there is the 'Case' statement, so you can check a variable against a number of possible outcomes (monday, tuesday etc), and selecting apropriate actions after that. Is there a bash equivalent? Oct 19 14:50:17 Thanks pupnik! Oct 19 14:50:18 Happen to have a link for the combined memory/CPU history app with clock overlay? Oct 19 14:50:39 that's osso-statusbar-copu Oct 19 14:51:09 Sebastius: well you can rule out monday Oct 19 14:51:15 and most of friday Oct 19 14:51:16 Thanks, pupnik! Oct 19 14:51:21 and definitely saturday Oct 19 14:51:38 thanks sp3000! Oct 19 14:51:39 and at that point, well... Oct 19 14:51:40 :P Oct 19 14:52:03 but yes, sh has case Oct 19 14:52:11 Sebastius, why didn't you look for the guide I gave you the name of? Oct 19 14:52:21 Sebastius, yes, there is. it's called 'case'. "help case" Oct 19 14:52:43 yes case "$var" in / value1) / command1; / ;; / value2) / command2; / *) / commanddefault; / ;; / esac Oct 19 14:52:46 thanks czr, guess i missed something Oct 19 14:52:59 Sebastius, google for 'advanced bash scripting guide'. it has a lot of examples Oct 19 14:53:06 but does busybox ash have it? Oct 19 14:53:12 case? sure. Oct 19 14:53:40 at least it should. I think it's mandated by posix. Oct 19 14:53:44 forgot a ;; after command2; Oct 19 14:54:15 guys, thanks for the great help :) Oct 19 14:54:47 i dno't know if that will work on the device tho Oct 19 14:57:43 i really love this 770 already, got it yesterday. The possibilities are endless (well, with the low memory popping up every now and then...) Oct 19 14:58:45 Sebastius: i wonder what would you think of N810 :) Oct 19 14:58:56 better? Oct 19 14:59:02 * lardman was overly optimistic about N800 framebuffer access :( Oct 19 14:59:05 even more endless possibilities Oct 19 14:59:16 Sebastius, I recommend upgrading to 2007HE if you haven't Oct 19 14:59:18 lardman, the padding didn't help? Oct 19 14:59:36 2007HE? Oct 19 14:59:37 <_Monkey> 2007HE is really great Oct 19 14:59:52 czr: too much, ran out of TLBs Oct 19 14:59:53 i've got 2006 from nokia? Oct 19 15:00:01 lardman, argh. that hurts Oct 19 15:00:13 lardman, all TLBs are spoken for already? Oct 19 15:00:20 or you were joking? :-) Oct 19 15:00:25 no really Oct 19 15:00:30 damn. that sucks. Oct 19 15:00:35 it could only allocate ~5 more, then failed Oct 19 15:00:49 but it must be possible to use one of the already-mapped regions Oct 19 15:00:51 GeneralAntilles, 2007HE? Oct 19 15:00:55 I just can't get it to work correctly Oct 19 15:01:01 * czr nods at lardman Oct 19 15:01:33 * Tak also recommend enabling maximum swap Oct 19 15:01:45 This is for the DSP Oct 19 15:02:32 Sebastius, http://os2007on770.garage.maemo.org/ Oct 19 15:02:42 Yeah, swap is also a good idea. Oct 19 15:02:51 Will clear up pretty much all of those memory erros. Oct 19 15:04:58 What would be the advantage from jumping away from a stable 2006 to a HE2007? Oct 19 15:05:31 more software, better thumb support Oct 19 15:05:59 and how stable/unstable is 2007 for 770? Oct 19 15:06:11 Faster Oct 19 15:06:15 It works well for me Oct 19 15:06:24 Definitely more unexpected reboots than 2006 Oct 19 15:06:32 but the extra speedup and features are worth it. Oct 19 15:06:36 it's actually faster? wow that would be welcome. Oct 19 15:07:01 hmm - I experience fewer unexpected reboots Oct 19 15:08:41 can i flash back to 2006 if i have too many troubles? Oct 19 15:10:30 sure Oct 19 15:14:40 shame to see that the powervr mbx isn't currently used in the n810 Oct 19 15:14:50 and that the memory bandwidth issue remains Oct 19 15:15:55 it's a n800 with gps and keyboard, i think the lateral move is good Oct 19 15:16:05 lardman: yeah Oct 19 15:16:30 pupnik: yeah...would have been nice if they'd fixed some acknowledged hw mistakes, though Oct 19 15:16:34 but it has new software (I'd hoped that powervr would be enabled) and runs faster (I'd hoped that the memory bandwidth problems would be reduced by this) Oct 19 15:16:39 That is a shame, but there are signs on the horizon that it will be working one of these days. :) Oct 19 15:16:45 How about a maemo google earth folks ;) Oct 19 15:16:54 :) Oct 19 15:17:05 I demand Google Yoggoth! Oct 19 15:17:10 With the GPS that would be amazing. Oct 19 15:17:11 I think a nice accelerated Quake would be pretty cool, esp with a keyboard :) Oct 19 15:17:18 Heh Oct 19 15:17:23 I'm not much of a gamer anymore. Oct 19 15:17:30 The only game I seem to play now-a-days is netris ^_^ Oct 19 15:17:42 nor am I, but it would be cool :) Oct 19 15:17:54 Quake II would be better :P Oct 19 15:18:09 Heck, with PowerVR, we might even be able to run Quake III Oct 19 15:18:10 Could hold maemo death matches ^_^ Oct 19 15:18:13 "For this I optimized the RGB->YUY2 conversion a fair bit, and I'm now getting higher fps with it at 400x240 than with the XSP pixel doubliing, so the XSP doubling has been removed." - ZerionSeven Oct 19 15:18:28 GeneralAntilles: I think that's one of their demos isn't it? Oct 19 15:18:52 pupnik: where's that from? Oct 19 15:19:03 The quetoo thread. Oct 19 15:19:12 * lardman has a browse Oct 19 15:19:13 ZerionSeven seems to claim he's running the framebuffer in YUV2 mode Oct 19 15:19:28 which afaik is possible but surprising, since i haven't seen it done before Oct 19 15:19:43 I don't even know what that means. Oct 19 15:19:57 * alterego must remember to port ruby/SDL Oct 19 15:20:08 Heck, I'll do it now. Oct 19 15:20:34 pupnik: that's how mplayer works Oct 19 15:20:38 I think... Oct 19 15:21:20 i haven't looked into it much, but if it means less bits per pixel, it could be an effective trick to bypass framebuffer bandwidth issues Oct 19 15:21:55 http://www.gossamer-threads.com/lists/engine?do=post_view_printable;post=19711;list=maemo Oct 19 15:21:56 Ah Oct 19 15:24:12 i read the thread Oct 19 15:24:52 * Tak drops all his apps down to 1bpp Oct 19 15:25:00 :) Oct 19 15:25:28 I really like the profile idea on maemo.org Oct 19 15:25:59 Makes a me feel more a part of the community :) Oct 19 15:27:06 Nice nick name, Alter ego. :) Oct 19 15:27:21 it makes you feel like someone is profiling you. :-) Oct 19 15:27:22 Thank you :) Oct 19 15:27:33 Have you studied latin? Oct 19 15:27:41 No, not really. Oct 19 15:27:48 Why do you ask? Oct 19 15:27:55 you don't seem yourself? :-) Oct 19 15:28:34 Just, curiosity. I'm Spanish and I never studied it... it is a pity ... lot of Spanish people done it. Oct 19 15:28:43 Ah Oct 19 15:29:00 I've always been interested in Latin, maybe one day I'll learn it. Oct 19 15:30:49 Hehe, It is not than easy as I though long time ago but I still like it. I know just few words and sentences. I'm thinking about buying a good book but there's only French, German and English books for learning... it sucks Oct 19 15:31:17 Yeah, French, German and English suck. Oct 19 15:32:10 hi, is this the good place to ask stupid questions about installing software on an n800 ? Oct 19 15:32:24 As good as any :) Oct 19 15:32:26 there are no stupid questions Oct 19 15:32:42 alterego, you took the words out of my mouth. literally :-). although my smiley would have been different.. Oct 19 15:32:50 Heh Oct 19 15:32:58 Maybe we're spending too much time together ;) Oct 19 15:33:06 maybe we are. stop following me! Oct 19 15:33:10 Hah Oct 19 15:33:26 I've been trying to install Kagu but I've got dependencies problems Oct 19 15:33:33 the package manager doesn't find libsdl Oct 19 15:33:41 Interesting. Oct 19 15:33:50 si I must be missing a repository Oct 19 15:34:03 repositories? Oct 19 15:34:03 <_Monkey> repositories is http://maemo.org/community/wiki/ApplicationRepositories and a searchable index at http://www.gronmayer.com/n800/repos/index.php Oct 19 15:34:14 mhm Oct 19 15:34:56 libsdl1.2 comes from http://repository.maemo.org Oct 19 15:35:05 thanks, and how can I add repositories to the package manager ? Oct 19 15:35:15 don't know if that's the SDK one or the Extras one Oct 19 15:35:29 well, that's a stupid question, I suppose the default user is root and can edit the sources Oct 19 15:35:46 no Oct 19 15:35:51 you can add repositories in package manager as normal user Oct 19 15:35:53 there's a menu in the application manager Oct 19 15:35:59 s/package/applicatino Oct 19 15:36:11 I see, thank you Oct 19 15:36:16 * Tak update maemo profile Oct 19 15:36:18 maybe this is python sdl? Oct 19 15:36:20 I'm having trouble remembering there is a menu Oct 19 15:36:22 :) Oct 19 15:37:52 okay, libsdl1.2 is in the SDK repository Oct 19 15:38:29 oh and something else... when I mount the device I can read and write the memory card, but is there a way to mount the device's internal memory ? Oct 19 15:39:04 it's already mounted Oct 19 15:39:20 python2.5-pygame, which kagu needs, is in the maemo extras repository Oct 19 15:39:23 I mean when I plug it into my computer Oct 19 15:39:31 and so's kagu Oct 19 15:39:39 Yusei-: no, you can't Oct 19 15:39:45 ok, thanks Oct 19 15:39:45 well, you could do it over the network Oct 19 15:39:48 e.g. I use sshfs for that Oct 19 15:39:56 I see Oct 19 15:40:49 the restriction comes from the USB mass storage interface: you can't have two filesystem drivers access the same block device at the same time Oct 19 15:40:52 sshfs is the win! Oct 19 15:40:57 that it is Oct 19 15:41:08 I like the gnomevfs integration too. Oct 19 15:41:33 Though, unfortunately the gnomevfs implementation is a bit limited compared to the proper fuse sshfs. Oct 19 15:43:44 * sp3000 would like sshfs more if it didn't crash occasionally Oct 19 15:44:58 I've never had that problem. Oct 19 15:45:05 How does it crash? Oct 19 15:48:17 " Yeah, French, German and English suck." haha Oct 19 15:48:24 Aren't you English? :) Oct 19 15:48:28 I am yes ;) Oct 19 15:48:38 Don't you like your language? Oct 19 15:48:43 It's okay. Oct 19 15:49:11 I don't really know much about linguistics to know what makes a good spoken language ;) Oct 19 15:49:35 All I know is there's a lot of crap in the dictionary and Americans don't spell or talk English. Oct 19 15:49:58 Do you know "Apertium" project? :) It is a translator tool. You can find lot of nice people who like languages in that room. Oct 19 15:50:08 hahaha Oct 19 15:50:21 Cool. Oct 19 15:50:31 alterego, which country of America you said? ;P Oct 19 15:50:33 or join #lojban Oct 19 15:50:40 I don't know a country called America. :) Oct 19 15:50:47 Heh Oct 19 15:51:00 Yeah, what's an American? Oct 19 15:51:03 :) Oct 19 15:51:24 Appearantly the French _really_ dislike Americans, what's it like in Spain? Oct 19 15:51:53 I lived in Paris a couple of years ago and did not find myself especially disliked Oct 19 15:52:01 I have to disagree, many french people unexplicably like americans Oct 19 15:52:11 Maybe that's just Paris :) Oct 19 15:52:31 Well, they want people to try to conform to their idea of social roles Oct 19 15:52:36 * Tak going to paris this summer Oct 19 15:52:37 Strange, I was talking to a couple of American folk last night and they didn't feel welcome at all. Oct 19 15:52:41 pupnik: do you know why/how the xsp scaling can be slower than RGB->YUY2 conversion? Oct 19 15:52:44 but when you fail to, and you're american, it can be amusing for them Oct 19 15:53:05 nobody is outgoing. they have trouble making friends themselves if they move Oct 19 15:53:12 so, no, you wouldn't feel "welcome" Oct 19 15:53:15 Ah Oct 19 15:53:20 alterego, I don't dislike "americans" Oct 19 15:53:34 it takes a LONG time to establish a social circle Oct 19 15:53:36 They also seem to expect you to speak French, I mean really .. Who speaks French now-a-days :) Oct 19 15:53:39 I dislike the use of that word to talk about "usa people" Oct 19 15:53:40 pupnik: is this some issue with the Xserver code surrounding the pixel scaling call, or a bandwidth issue of using the RGB rather than YUY2 format? Oct 19 15:53:41 no but he's saying he's running a 400x240 YUV2 window, which i don't understand. Oct 19 15:53:43 and if you're not fluent in french, that's an additional border Oct 19 15:53:44 hi guys Oct 19 15:54:04 pupnik: the lcd controller accepts that format Oct 19 15:54:18 yes, but he implies it does pixel doubling in that format, yes? Oct 19 15:54:27 I like France :) Oct 19 15:54:39 ah that's true, the lcd controller can do arbitrary scaling Oct 19 15:54:47 on the n800 Oct 19 15:55:12 I don't know much French but I used to go there a lot skiing. I also know this _really_ nice French girl. She's extremely pretty and really cool. Oct 19 15:55:24 And the accent is kind of a turn on ^_^ Oct 19 15:56:05 if that's the case, i'd be curious to see about an extension to sdl that allows setting that video mode and transparently blitting to it with updaterect() Oct 19 15:56:07 sshfs looks interesting; sftp could be similar Oct 19 15:57:01 I mount my tablet with sshfs into my scratchbox environment. Oct 19 15:57:05 pupnik: start patching! Oct 19 15:57:54 I have a lot of remote ssh conns; could be handy to have them all in one dir Oct 19 15:58:18 (subdirs, or course) Oct 19 15:58:27 Yeah, I also use it to mount my /srv/vhosts directory on my server. Oct 19 15:58:47 When I'm editing images that's exceptionally useful :) Oct 19 15:59:31 alterego, how it goes with graphics? Oct 19 15:59:52 zoran, it means I can edit images that are stored on a remote server locally with the gimp. Oct 19 15:59:59 It's just an access method. Oct 19 16:00:01 huh! Oct 19 16:00:17 Really useful when you're developing a site. Oct 19 16:00:21 what is a traffic footprint? Oct 19 16:00:54 Well, I've not had any speed issues. I've got a 2M connection. Oct 19 16:01:20 I tried hp testdrive windows 2003 and used 1 Mb just to log in Oct 19 16:01:20 Just don't do anything that involves particularly large files. Oct 19 16:01:28 scp is better for transfering those kinds of things. Oct 19 16:01:36 yes, and sftp Oct 19 16:01:59 hp lets people to play woth their new servers Oct 19 16:02:02 I've actually never used sftp, except through the gnome "connect to" facility. Oct 19 16:02:09 I really like it Oct 19 16:02:20 scp has always suited my needs :) Oct 19 16:02:28 good enough Oct 19 16:02:29 and sshfs is fantastic. Oct 19 16:02:43 gonna try it out this days Oct 19 16:03:06 have a nice weekend chaps Oct 19 16:03:18 some older servers (plan9 or vms) does not let people use sftp Oct 19 16:03:31 fs could be a way around Oct 19 16:03:40 Interesting. Oct 19 16:03:49 Do you deal a bit with Plan 9? Oct 19 16:03:58 vax vms uses v 1 Oct 19 16:04:12 Ah, can't you compile openssl/ssh ? Oct 19 16:04:14 so I have no luck with dropbear Oct 19 16:04:39 on vms it is a layer product Oct 19 16:04:58 very proprietary, if you are open source soul Oct 19 16:06:02 Ah Oct 19 16:06:16 I'm one of those _everything_ should be open source people. Oct 19 16:06:23 yep Oct 19 16:06:27 I don't like it when things get in my way when I'm working on projects. Oct 19 16:06:52 vms is so good, that people disregard that Oct 19 16:07:52 * pupnik shakes a bony fist at the pile of unfinished projects Oct 19 16:07:59 I only deal with Linux now-a-days and it's pretty much all Debian. Oct 19 16:08:11 Except a NetBSD system I work on sometimes. Oct 19 16:08:16 would be my linux choice Oct 19 16:08:52 Yeah, I moved from Debian to Fedora but came back to debian a year or so ago and I'm wondering why I ever changed :) Oct 19 16:09:14 they are two sides of universe, I think Oct 19 16:09:36 evil, and FOSS Oct 19 16:09:42 :) Oct 19 16:09:48 not in deed Oct 19 16:09:55 I think I changed because I was interested to see what Fedora was like, I got given a new laptop so I installed it on that. It was comfortable so I kept with it for a while. Oct 19 16:10:58 I had RH some years ago, till they became dynosaur Oct 19 16:11:36 I found I was forever getting annoyed by RPM's and YUM. Oct 19 16:11:53 yes, deb and apt-get sounds better Oct 19 16:12:05 not for all around the globe Oct 19 16:12:29 Yeah, Oct 19 16:12:30 but freebsd way is even better Oct 19 16:12:41 net and open bsd use it already Oct 19 16:12:48 ports yeah. Oct 19 16:12:53 and some linuces Oct 19 16:12:56 I've not really got any experience with that. Oct 19 16:13:04 ah, so easy Oct 19 16:13:14 I'm a user on a NetBSD system but I obviously don't have to deal with package management :) Oct 19 16:13:26 it is the same as in freebsd Oct 19 16:13:34 2 ways Oct 19 16:13:49 first is: pkg_add thisorthat.tbz Oct 19 16:14:01 second is: make; make install Oct 19 16:14:08 nothing more Oct 19 16:14:57 yesterday I dound something interesting to me: pynetfilter_conntrack Oct 19 16:15:02 *found Oct 19 16:15:34 apt-get install package :P Oct 19 16:15:48 hm, it is python lib Oct 19 16:16:21 it should be like kernel module to act as stateful tracking Oct 19 16:17:21 I have a feeling I could implement it on my 770 Oct 19 16:17:29 are there any nokians on channel with a N810 to hand? Oct 19 16:17:38 he-he Oct 19 16:18:10 names Oct 19 16:18:32 I read it will be available for a month or so Oct 19 16:19:02 or "/names"? Oct 19 16:19:21 zoran: I know.. Oct 19 16:19:30 :) Oct 19 16:19:44 was a funny chat robtaylor Oct 19 16:21:25 Does anyone know what are these messages seen with dmesg: "EAC mode: play enabled, rec enabled" Oct 19 16:21:51 zoran: you forgot about the part where it can't find all of the dependencies Oct 19 16:22:04 and also the part where you need to keep a huge local port tree on your pc Oct 19 16:22:07 hm, I found the list Oct 19 16:22:20 other than that, it's pretty much like that Oct 19 16:22:30 conntrack? Oct 19 16:23:56 Tak, I just put lib inside the path and python uses it Oct 19 16:24:15 even more, libs are from my bsd box Oct 19 16:24:47 Sounds fiddly. Oct 19 16:24:54 I think I'll stick to Debian. Oct 19 16:25:07 It's familiar and we're on the same wavelength I feel :) Oct 19 16:25:09 no, I think about maemo Oct 19 16:25:27 Oh right. Oct 19 16:25:34 * Tak agree with alterego Oct 19 16:25:42 to add lib to work on 770 as stateful tracker Oct 19 16:25:58 it is debian in heart Oct 19 16:28:48 k, needs ctypes and IPy Oct 19 16:28:51 hello Oct 19 16:28:52 <_Monkey> privet, davis Oct 19 16:32:03 hello Oct 19 16:32:04 <_Monkey> bonjour, Tak Oct 19 16:32:14 * DRoBeR is away: show(er)time ^_^ Oct 19 16:33:17 is this a channel for talking about general n770 usage? Oct 19 16:33:27 yes. Oct 19 16:33:33 Good Oct 19 16:34:20 I am using the xterm, I know ctrl-p and n give previous and next command lines. How do you scroll the cursor left and right to do command line editing? Oct 19 16:34:55 buttons? Oct 19 16:35:50 heh, that simple? Oct 19 16:35:53 thanks Oct 19 16:45:33 Any easy way to press Return and Escape in xterm? Oct 19 16:46:08 escape is the loopy-back hw button. return is .. um.. no. :( Oct 19 16:46:31 (well.. yes. get an n810 :) .. but thats not a proper answer) Oct 19 16:47:06 nad, no xterm? Oct 19 16:48:47 nad: Return is on the virtual kb Oct 19 16:48:48 I use osso-xterm, but sometimes I want to just repeat a command. I press the C-p button and then to press Return I need to make it display the keyboard and press it there... Oct 19 16:49:04 I've also added it to the sidebar Oct 19 16:49:18 which is the very nifty feature of the maemo-hackers version of osso-xterm Oct 19 16:49:34 as xterm is loaded, there is possibility to add smaller win manager Oct 19 16:50:18 mgedmin: what is the code for Return for the sidebar "Return"? Oct 19 16:50:33 let me check... Oct 19 16:50:38 it's something tricky, I remember that Oct 19 16:51:10 zoran: not sure what you mean... Oct 19 16:51:10 KP_Enter Oct 19 16:51:39 wow. and here it is. :) Oct 19 16:51:48 Is there trouble adding accounts to the garage? Oct 19 16:51:55 (Known trouble, that is Oct 19 16:52:06 nad: you can find out the key names with xev on your linux desktop Oct 19 16:52:23 you can also make the xterm shortcuts enter more than one character by separating key names with , Oct 19 16:52:44 I had a button for entering . ~/.profile once, when osso-xterm had that bug with not spawning a login shell Oct 19 16:54:23 mgedmin: Thx, it works! Oct 19 16:55:37 no known trouble then? Oct 19 17:01:00 OK, is there anyone here who knows the details of the maemo garage account creation system? Oct 19 17:07:16 Fantabulous. If anyone knows the maemo garage guys, I'm not sure what the problem is, but both accounts I've tried to create keep getting 'Access denied\nCredentials you entered do not correspond to valid account." errors when I try to log in from the registration confirmation email link. Oct 19 17:07:39 maybe you should wait a little bit? Oct 19 17:07:54 zoran: I've given one of 'em 2 hours. Oct 19 17:08:01 :) Oct 19 17:08:11 Solarion, did you use uppercase letters within your username? Oct 19 17:08:17 simon_: yes Oct 19 17:08:23 I saw some explanation on maemo-users to wait Oct 19 17:08:30 Solarion, that sounds like the reason Oct 19 17:08:40 simon_: why are uppercase letters a problem? Oct 19 17:08:51 Solarion, iirc there was a tiny text stating that the username should use lowercase letters Oct 19 17:08:55 I experience that issue as well, Solarion Oct 19 17:09:01 * Tak Tak -> tak Oct 19 17:09:25 simon_: wow. OK. I'm just a stupid monkey, then. There it is right there. :) Oct 19 17:10:48 Solarion, guess how I figured out that there was such a limitation ;) Oct 19 17:10:48 my apologies for wasting everyone's time because of my own inability to read/comprehend/follow directions. :) Oct 19 17:12:34 simon_: :) Oct 19 17:13:13 afaict, it doesn't reject uppercase, just translates it to lowercase Oct 19 17:13:53 Tak: confirmed. I just lower-cased my original username, and it worked. Funky. Oct 19 17:14:06 Now the question is, should I go ahead with the second account I created? :) Oct 19 17:23:50 wow, 6 months later i see the answer to the maemo.org login problem Oct 19 17:27:24 ..isn't tolower() a simple function in most every web language? Oct 19 17:30:40 :) Oct 19 17:30:47 pupnik, problem? What problem? :D Oct 19 17:32:14 oh nevermind, my broken login is lowercase Oct 19 17:38:25 i have the vpnc, connected and working. it just seems to kill my network, as once it connects, no applications can connect to the internet anymore. Oct 19 17:38:44 * |R wonders what he did wrong with his maemo-mapper install not to have google/M$ maps choices... Oct 19 17:39:39 hi, what does libfakeroot: connect: Connection timed out signify when I'm trying to install the 4.0 beta sdk? (It appears after getting the Packages files when trying to install packages.) Oct 19 17:43:08 You hit the "Download..." button in the Manage Repositories, |R? Oct 19 17:43:37 ? Oct 19 17:43:44 ah Oct 19 17:47:08 :( anyone know why vpn kills my connection? Oct 19 17:47:35 VNC or VPN? Oct 19 17:47:52 <|R> GeneralAntilles : ah! Oct 19 17:48:04 <|R> GeneralAntilles : that's where ;) Oct 19 17:48:43 Hmm . . . what's the tablet website for beginners? Oct 19 17:52:14 i am struggling to get usb networking, working. Oct 19 17:52:45 i can get usb networking to ping ip addresses, but I can not get the dns part working. Oct 19 17:53:12 vnc Oct 19 17:53:32 !damnit. i mean vpn Oct 19 17:53:43 i have my /etc/resolv.conf file to use 127.0.0.1, 192.168.1.14, and even my pc's eth dns server. Oct 19 17:53:53 but still no go. Oct 19 17:54:26 nslookup foo says "*** Unknown host" Oct 19 17:54:39 it does not even look like it is trying to use a dns server. Oct 19 17:54:42 any idea? Oct 19 17:54:52 VPN might be crashing your network device, Rhys. Oct 19 17:55:04 davis, I have no experience with USB networking. Why not wifi? Oct 19 17:55:17 what? as soon as i shut it off, it works again. Oct 19 17:55:25 i am at work. We need leap to use wifi here. Oct 19 17:55:49 Then I can be no help to either of you. :D Oct 19 17:55:53 i don't think leap works on the nokia. Oct 19 17:55:56 np. Oct 19 17:57:05 got to go. Oct 19 17:59:22 oddly enough, i don't have ping. Oct 19 17:59:36 i know you need to include that in config when you build busybox. Oct 19 17:59:56 i also looked at maemo-org and I don't see it there. What am I missing. Oct 19 18:01:54 <[31d1]> you need one of the custom busybox Oct 19 18:03:35 hmm. where do i get that? Oct 19 18:11:06 [31d1]: where do i get a custom busybox? Oct 19 18:14:37 <[31d1]> maemo.org/community/wiki/ApplicationCatalog2006 or something like that Oct 19 18:56:05 somebody from tokyo here? Oct 19 18:56:13 Hi everyone! Guys, my n800 has been on the table for some time, now it sugnals about battery dicharge and it's abit warm to touch. Is it all right? (Mayby wi-fi frequency warms it or something?). Oct 19 18:56:33 Coffee, nihonjin da ka Oct 19 18:56:43 warm is ok Oct 19 18:56:47 thanx Oct 19 18:56:59 Devamax, whatever that means - i don't speak japanese :) Oct 19 18:57:08 newemind) Oct 19 18:59:10 Is it not "Nihonjin desu ka?" Oct 19 18:59:11 ? Oct 19 18:59:32 Desu is more polite form). Oct 19 18:59:34 Demo, watashi nihongo wakarimashen. Oct 19 18:59:44 ah, sugoi. Oct 19 19:00:03 Doumo arigatou gozaimasu, Devamax-san. :) Oct 19 19:00:36 :). Oct 19 19:09:38 alterego, memento mori et carpe diem, amici. ;) Oct 19 19:10:01 Was that something about fish? Oct 19 19:10:14 Remember that you will die and harvest the day, friend. Oct 19 19:10:21 s/harvest/seize/ Oct 19 19:10:24 * DRoBeR is away: out of order. Oct 19 19:10:27 ;) Oct 19 19:10:40 Sorry, my English really sucks ^_^ Oct 19 19:10:56 s'ok, my french really sucks Oct 19 19:11:12 but together, we shall rule the universe! Oct 19 19:11:14 is it a kind of joke? Oct 19 19:11:37 ah, ok. haha :) As purple tentacle. Oct 19 19:12:10 Well, I detach this IRC session. See you, maemo's pals. Oct 19 19:12:22 au revoir Oct 19 19:29:43 anyone seen serge around? Oct 19 19:29:58 Would be great if he could compile mplayer for chinook Oct 19 19:30:57 on the 800, is there anything special with the bag/pouch that it comes with like the N770 lid has a mag switch to suspend/disconnect the network when it is in place Oct 19 19:31:10 no. Oct 19 19:31:35 can the 800 disconnect automatically or will it just burn power running WiFi? Oct 19 19:32:13 I wouldn't call it burning power, it still lasts for many days with wifi on Oct 19 19:32:33 not IME Oct 19 19:32:38 so the battery life is better on then 800 then? Oct 19 19:33:00 if I leave the 770 w/WiFi, the thing shutdown down in about a day Oct 19 19:33:12 according to nokias website it should last about 6 days with wifi connected Oct 19 19:33:16 I think it goes into a low-power mode on the wifi chip when not using it, but it stays connected Oct 19 19:33:19 ds3: it's configurable Oct 19 19:33:45 mgedmin: is this the time setting? Oct 19 19:33:56 huh? Oct 19 19:34:02 and yes, you can set it to disconnect after 5, 10 or 60 minutes of inactivity Oct 19 19:34:08 control panel -> connectivity -> idle timeout, IIRC Oct 19 19:34:10 let me check... Oct 19 19:34:22 Yeah, mine lasts for ages connected but dormant. Oct 19 19:34:27 that's what i mean time[out] setting Oct 19 19:34:31 Good for always on IM/VoIP Oct 19 19:34:35 control panel -> connectivity -> idle times settings Oct 19 19:34:35 Great feature. Oct 19 19:34:54 it is very tempting to get a N800 to replace the N770 right now Oct 19 19:35:09 ds3, wait a little longer for the prices to come down. Oct 19 19:35:10 the lid on the 770 is very nice protection/shutoff Oct 19 19:35:25 I'm very happy with my N800 after using a 770 for quite a while Oct 19 19:35:27 ok, wanted to try microb... installed played and uninstalled, but how do I get opera back? Oct 19 19:35:36 alterego: you think there is room for it to drop a lot more? Oct 19 19:35:36 ds3, have you applied for the developer program? Oct 19 19:35:53 ds3, sure, if the 770 is anything to go by :) Oct 19 19:35:55 alterego: no, not yet... Oct 19 19:36:13 okay Oct 19 19:36:14 Well you should. An N810 would be better than an N800 :) Oct 19 19:36:21 snowmoon: either uninstall microb or edit some text file in ~/ that has a configuration option that lets you show a menu item for switching the browser engine Oct 19 19:36:27 Especially for 99 EUR ;) Oct 19 19:36:38 770 + bt keyboard is very very very nice Oct 19 19:36:52 :) Oct 19 19:37:02 mgedmin: did uninstall, how do I edit files in ~/? Oct 19 19:37:04 doubling flash/ram AND a real SD slots makes the 800... :)~~~~ Oct 19 19:37:25 snowmoon: wait, what? I thought once you uninstalled it the browser would automatically switch back to opera Oct 19 19:37:34 do you have a nonfunctional browser now? Oct 19 19:37:40 yep... do I need to reboot? Oct 19 19:37:44 * mgedmin does not know Oct 19 19:37:51 Yeah, I would prefer a full size MMC/SD slot on the N810 Oct 19 19:38:45 the N810 looks more like a zaurus with the KB Oct 19 19:39:08 Picked up the 770 for a c-note to see how the platform works... quite slick and faster than I expected Oct 19 19:39:37 ordered a 2gb card to do some hacking Oct 19 19:39:49 does the current 2007HE for the 770 still lack features compared to the stock 2006? Oct 19 19:39:57 Guys have anyone tried flash with more thw 2gb memory on n800? Does ir run fast enough to watch films etc? Oct 19 19:41:33 ok, I'm stuck with non functional browser... damn, just when things were getting interesting Oct 19 19:41:57 Ivan: I've a 4gb sd card in my n800 Oct 19 19:41:58 Ivan: yes, but full speed films currently only at 240 lines or less Oct 19 19:42:18 flash speed is not the bottleneck Oct 19 19:42:50 Why would size make a memory card slower? :D Oct 19 19:43:06 Well, I've heard it does ) Oct 19 19:43:26 That's insane. Oct 19 19:43:41 Perhaps)) Oct 19 19:43:51 If it doesn't - than better)) Oct 19 19:44:07 So... is there any built in app that will let me get to the .browser file? Oct 19 19:44:10 Heh. There's a transfer rate limit, so a larger card doesn't mean you can get data faster, but it doesn't make it slower either Oct 19 19:44:14 Of course it doesn't. Oct 19 19:44:47 There might be a performance hit between SD/SDHC cards but that's not really got anything to do with size. Oct 19 19:44:49 there are no moving parts, so SD card don't have some of the shortcomings of disks Oct 19 19:45:10 tnx guys) Oct 19 19:45:10 And I doubt there is a performance difference. Oct 19 19:45:10 like fragmentation is a problem with disks because the read head needs time to move, but not so with sd cards Oct 19 19:46:49 snowmoon: AFAIK no, you need either osso-xterm or a ssh server for that Oct 19 19:47:07 damn... looks like I'm going to learn how to reflash Oct 19 19:47:48 It's rather easy actually ). Oct 19 19:57:02 ds3: it seems like battery life may not be as good in hacker edition Oct 19 19:57:56 I don't notice a difference in battery life Oct 19 19:58:17 i heard microwaving sd cards can improve their performance Oct 19 19:58:25 really?! Oct 19 19:58:29 :) Oct 19 19:58:31 * Tak away (microwave) Oct 19 19:58:44 it works really well for CDs! Oct 19 19:59:03 yeah i have a couple of 'treated' WinNT CDs Oct 19 19:59:23 Anyone else having troubles with ncurses? Oct 19 19:59:30 I don't know the specifics with sd, but in theory bigger card could be slower Oct 19 19:59:50 it's a serial protocol and the (larger) address has to pass over that same serial interface Oct 19 20:00:08 shapr, what sort of problems? Oct 19 20:00:38 I tried to upgrade ncurses, but it wants to overwrite /usr/bin/clear which is also in some other package. Oct 19 20:00:51 ncurses-bin is broken Oct 19 20:00:52 yeah, busybox Oct 19 20:00:59 You only want ncurses-bas (I think) Oct 19 20:01:04 yeah, that sounds right Oct 19 20:01:05 You have to remove ncurses-bin Oct 19 20:01:07 ok Oct 19 20:01:16 Microvaves are very helpful in all aspects of life, they can even enlarge your, well, whatever your want to be enlarged, you just need to make a hole of suitable size in your microvawe emitter (maybe owen) and isert. Oct 19 20:01:36 shapr, http://www.internettablettalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8959 Oct 19 20:01:43 Had the problem a few weeks ago. Oct 19 20:01:48 Don't recall exactly how I fixed it Oct 19 20:01:54 damn...they never enlarge my food Oct 19 20:01:54 but it involved dpkg with lots of options. Oct 19 20:02:18 shapr, maybe this: dpkg -r --force-remove-reinstreq ncurses-bin Oct 19 20:02:55 *add an e top "-bas" Oct 19 20:03:08 *to, not top Oct 19 20:03:13 * GeneralAntilles needs to learn to type. Oct 19 20:07:23 GeneralAntilles: Yeah, that worked Oct 19 20:07:32 Good deal. :) Oct 19 20:08:13 anyone know if the 770 IO bandwidth limit is per flash device.. or can you write to both the internal and external at full speed or interleave reading and writing without a penalty? Oct 19 20:09:25 I can't get a2dp working on either my 770 with OS2007, or on my desktop, this is frustrating. Oct 19 20:15:00 Imagine what the N800/810 would be like with the PowerVR chip working and compiz or beryl ^_^ Oct 19 20:15:12 That would be super cool. Oct 19 20:15:30 more likely it would be HOT Oct 19 20:15:36 :) Oct 19 20:15:44 That'd show those iCrap pansies ^_^ Oct 19 20:23:08 <_trent_> anyone know why I can't seem to get fbreader installed on my new n800? I installed the latest libzlibrary from the fbreader site but when i try to install fbreader I get the error from app mgr. "application package missing libzlibrary-maemo2 (= .8.7-1)" Oct 19 20:24:01 Did you install the FBReader repo? Oct 19 20:25:02 <_trent_> maybe that is my problem Oct 19 20:25:07 <_trent_> let me give that a shot.. thanks Oct 19 20:25:38 <_trent_> its already there Oct 19 20:26:54 Are there any other linux distributives working with n800 hardware? Oct 19 20:27:37 Try removing libzlibrary, updating the repos, and try installing FBReader again. Oct 19 20:28:23 <_trent_> k Oct 19 20:29:40 * pupnik_ frolics and cavorts Oct 19 20:30:15 <_trent_> same error Oct 19 20:30:29 Dunno, I'm not savy enough to fix it. Oct 19 20:30:37 Anybody else want to take a stab? Oct 19 20:34:15 gwahr, a2dp is FRUSTRATING! Oct 19 20:35:16 damn! I forgot my usb cable at work! Oct 19 20:35:30 What, you don't have more than one? Oct 19 20:35:50 are you being nasty? No, I have only one micro usb Oct 19 20:36:30 <[31d1]> use ssh Oct 19 20:36:51 good point. Oct 19 20:38:28 Micro, ah. Oct 19 20:38:31 Lucky bastard. ;) Oct 19 20:42:47 is there python for chinook beta yet? Oct 19 20:43:10 yeah Oct 19 20:43:30 just use sardine repository Oct 19 20:43:51 tomv, a new version will be released next week Oct 19 20:50:37 konttori, luck^: thanks. Oct 19 20:51:28 <_trent_> i think fbreader is broken Oct 19 20:51:57 Did anyone ever figure out whether the N810 really does have two SD slots? Oct 19 20:52:25 tomv: did you get it working? Oct 19 20:55:32 konttori: didn't try yet. Oct 19 20:55:55 you may need to have also extras bora and maemo bora active. Oct 19 20:56:14 ok. now I'm impressed. Oct 19 20:56:28 I just made ukmp to make reflection on the fly. Oct 19 20:57:04 slightly slower than before, but not to any meaningful extent Oct 19 20:57:21 <_trent_> i finally got fbreader to install correctly... from maemo site .. never from the fbreader site. thanks for the help Oct 19 20:57:36 This will make HUGE UI possibilities. Oct 19 20:58:13 wow. I'm kind of still blown away by that. Oct 19 21:00:12 shapr, only one MicroSD slot Oct 19 21:03:15 is it micro? I thought micro was an even smaller one Oct 19 21:03:19 the one in phones Oct 19 21:03:25 and 810 has mini Oct 19 21:04:45 konttori: yeah. we're going to do that in kagu to get the album cache generation faster too. only use the reflections in "cover buttons" anyway. Oct 19 21:04:54 Dosbox 0.72 VGA emulation now fixed for Nokia Oct 19 21:05:37 kagu didn't install on n810 Oct 19 21:05:44 (by the way) Oct 19 21:06:26 disq: I don't think you'll save much time from the generation that way though. Oct 19 21:06:35 It's such a fast process apparently Oct 19 21:06:51 hmm iphone has 620 mhz Samsung S3C6400, which contains an ARM1176JZF Oct 19 21:09:03 Right, MiniSD Oct 19 21:12:26 man, I hate busybox Oct 19 21:14:18 Join the club. Oct 19 21:14:19 * alterego likes busybox. Oct 19 21:14:24 It's clever :) Oct 19 21:14:29 It's useless. Oct 19 21:14:38 Rubbish Oct 19 21:14:44 If it was useless people wouldn't use it. Oct 19 21:14:46 <||cw> its abused Oct 19 21:14:50 You wouldn't be using it. Oct 19 21:14:59 I wish I wasn't. Oct 19 21:15:10 In fact, I'm often not. Oct 19 21:15:12 What tool are you wishing you were not using? Oct 19 21:15:17 isn't the external SD slot on the N800 SDIO capable? Oct 19 21:15:31 ds3, it should be. Oct 19 21:16:04 Hmmm SDIO GPS on the N800 + BT keyboard is another way to whittle away at the 810 Oct 19 21:16:06 Presuming it's wired correctly up to the CPU :) Oct 19 21:16:28 no alignment warnings in dmesg Oct 19 21:16:31 know if the N800 has the same SDIO controller as all the other omap2 processors? Oct 19 21:16:47 ds3, it should be identical. Oct 19 21:17:04 I don't see any reason for it to be different .. Oct 19 21:17:09 nice, then SDIO GPS should be doable Oct 19 21:17:12 <||cw> isn't sdio a driver problem? or does nokia have a license for it? Oct 19 21:17:28 IIRC, the omap tree has a working SDIO driver for some stuff Oct 19 21:17:35 <||cw> one of the issues with linux iPaq's was that HP wouldn't supply an sdio driver Oct 19 21:17:36 A driver problem? I thought the source was released with the generic OMAP kernel tree .. Oct 19 21:17:57 <||cw> was it? it's been a couple years Oct 19 21:18:01 ||cw, I don't think anyone ported the code to the PXA yet Oct 19 21:18:19 ||cw, the iPaq's are Intel SA right? Oct 19 21:18:26 <||cw> i dn't recall Oct 19 21:18:32 XScale like the Palms .. Oct 19 21:18:40 <||cw> yeah, xscale Oct 19 21:18:47 think the later iPaqs are PXAs, earlier ones were SA's Oct 19 21:18:51 That would probably be why. Oct 19 21:19:00 XScale is SA. Oct 19 21:19:38 Well, XScale was Intel's Strong ARM based CPU. Oct 19 21:19:53 Obvisouly they're not being developed by some other company. Oct 19 21:19:56 no, XScale is the decendant of SA Oct 19 21:20:12 think SA is ARMv4 and Xscale is ARMv5, IIRC Oct 19 21:20:16 -_- Oct 19 21:20:45 You think .. Oct 19 21:20:56 Sure there were v4 StrongARM's Oct 19 21:21:05 but then Xscale is on its 3rd owner Oct 19 21:21:17 Who owned it before Intel? Oct 19 21:21:20 DEC Oct 19 21:21:25 DEC -> Intel -> Marvell Oct 19 21:21:28 Ah Oct 19 21:21:31 Strange :) Oct 19 21:21:40 Intel got it as part of some law suit settlement Oct 19 21:21:42 They're nice chips. Oct 19 21:21:56 Think I prefer the OMAP's though :) Oct 19 21:22:08 OMAPs would be nice if more docs were available Oct 19 21:22:16 TI has a nicer attitude IMO Oct 19 21:22:35 Docs on what? How much more do you need??! :) Oct 19 21:22:46 on all the peripherals Oct 19 21:23:04 Sure, it'd be nicer if all the docs were in one place. Oct 19 21:23:20 The kernel source they supply should be enough documentation in that regard ds3 :P Oct 19 21:23:29 like if docs for the dsp was available Oct 19 21:23:40 They are available. Oct 19 21:24:06 alterego: I can't comment in detail but the kernel is only a fraction of the chip :( Oct 19 21:24:18 You've lost me. Oct 19 21:24:25 the chip can do a lot more Oct 19 21:24:38 Do you have an example? Oct 19 21:24:45 I'm not sure what you're talking about :) Oct 19 21:24:55 i can't comment on that :( Oct 19 21:25:09 NDA? ^_^ Oct 19 21:25:13 *nod* Oct 19 21:25:18 Ah, very well. Oct 19 21:25:34 May I ask who you're under an NDA with? Oct 19 21:25:54 you can ask, but I decline to say, sorry. Oct 19 21:25:59 Hahah Oct 19 21:26:01 Okay then :) Oct 19 21:26:19 but I am purely here on a personal capacity which means I have to forget everything else Oct 19 21:27:22 with some tweaking i have core up to 11 mhz 80286 speed Oct 19 21:28:17 didn't they make 20MHz 286's? Oct 19 21:28:26 Heh Oct 19 21:28:37 I found the OS2008 site before it was announced ^_^ Oct 19 21:29:16 i recall standard 286 @ 12mhz and some tweaked boxes up to 20 Oct 19 21:29:20 I wasn't expecting nokia.com/n810 to work, but it did :) Oct 19 21:31:20 The 3D pictures really make the device look sexy :) Oct 19 21:36:37 open /dev/snd/seq failed: :( Oct 19 21:42:24 unlikely we'll see a 2008HE :( Oct 19 21:42:54 I think it's time the community inherited the 770 Oct 19 21:43:08 If you want to see updated software, do it yourself :) Oct 19 21:43:58 hopefully more parts will be open with chinook Oct 19 21:44:11 anybody got the chinook beta sdk to work with Xtightvnc? Oct 19 21:44:15 is the wifi driver on 770 open? Oct 19 21:44:28 i'm guessing the problem is the composite extension, as bora/gregale work Oct 19 21:44:42 Possibly. Oct 19 21:44:52 I don't know much about those things :) Oct 19 21:45:05 I was getting quite a few problems with the Beta SDK. Oct 19 21:45:55 hildon-desktop exits with a badvalue error. got some other problems before too but they're related to /proc and /dev, probably ignorable Oct 19 21:46:40 I think my problem was probably cputransp actually. Oct 19 21:46:48 Things just segfaulted in weird places. Oct 19 21:49:30 you're not required to set up cputransp? (ie. connect the usb to the device, and all that) Oct 19 21:49:43 you just install the sbox-cputransp package Oct 19 21:49:51 Erm. I don't understand. Oct 19 21:50:04 I was having probs with qemu. Oct 19 21:50:09 cpu transparency is not required for any sdk activity. it wasn't for bora and gregale anyway. Oct 19 21:50:13 ah. ok. Oct 19 21:50:32 Oh, sorry. I see what I did there :) Oct 19 21:50:55 Hey all, Im having issues with compiling *.deb packages for my 770. Oct 19 21:51:08 Quinlan^, kind of issues? Oct 19 21:51:11 I get the SET_CPUTRANSPARENCY_METHOD error. Oct 19 21:51:26 Hmm .. Not heard of that. Oct 19 21:51:44 Really? Hm. It happens whenver I run dpkg. Oct 19 21:52:24 Well, you should do what it asks and set your cpu transparency method :) Oct 19 21:52:56 omg I noticed the option for it in sb-menu, but theres nothing there. Oct 19 21:53:02 oops, scratch the omg. Oct 19 21:53:16 Yeah, you need to install scratchbox qemu package. Oct 19 21:53:31 Then select one for your target. Oct 19 21:53:33 Alright, ill try that. Oct 19 21:53:36 thanks. Oct 19 21:53:43 to Debian! Oct 19 21:53:47 :) Oct 19 22:07:16 got the sdk working inside xephyr which is inside xtightvnc. but blue and red channels don't work. hmmm Oct 19 22:07:44 how long should it take for a garage.maemo.org profile to propogate to maemo.org? Oct 19 22:18:20 Hello Oct 19 22:18:20 <_Monkey> niihau, tom0006 Oct 19 22:18:42 i was wondering if I could get any help? Oct 19 22:22:23 Whenever I load the web on my 770 i get this error "Address type is unknown or unsupported file://usr/lib/microb-engine/chrome/toolkit/content/global/netError/xhtml" After installing MicroB Oct 19 22:22:44 *netError.xhtml Oct 19 22:28:23 anyone? Oct 19 22:29:23 this happens on a html page? Oct 19 22:29:42 I installed QEMU, but Im still not seeing it as a selectable choice in "Available Cpu-transparency methods" Oct 19 22:29:49 Solarion: Give it about 10 minutes or so. Oct 19 22:31:07 yes# Oct 19 22:31:19 like if I goto www.youtube.com it comes up with that error Oct 19 22:32:07 and then i have to reboot to get out of it Oct 19 22:33:30 Quinlan^: did you install scratchbox-devkit-cputransp? Oct 19 22:35:26 zerojay: it's been about 5.5 hours Oct 19 22:35:49 tom0006: i'd suggest you check out the microb bugtracker, the itt forums and if it persists file a bugreport Oct 19 22:35:50 i just uninstalled MicroB and the browser bacem unusable, so im about to rewrite the os but if anyone could tell me a fix/workaround then great and ill try again! Oct 19 22:36:06 ok well that works too Oct 19 22:37:04 Solarion: Hmm. File a bug, I suppose. Oct 19 22:37:57 mazzen: I didnt know if I should, the highest its version went to was 1.0.3 Oct 19 22:39:26 Ill try that now. Oct 19 22:39:37 hi, im currently trying to open up my N800 a bit, but most of the docs are outdated... Oct 19 22:40:02 is there any advantage of using dropbear over openssh? Oct 19 22:40:20 I personally like Dropbear more, because it always works. Oct 19 22:40:27 MadMan2k, not really. dropbear is limited but smaller. OpenSSH is a full implementation but takes more space. Oct 19 22:40:28 :) Oct 19 22:40:39 thanks Oct 19 22:40:48 Quinlan^: i steped over the same thing yesterday :) Oct 19 22:41:06 Always works? Oct 19 22:41:12 and does it make sense to partition my SD card and mut home on it? Oct 19 22:41:17 I've not had any problems with OpenSSH Oct 19 22:41:37 *put Oct 19 22:41:43 Not really. Oct 19 22:42:17 Unless you have a compelling reason to do so. Oct 19 22:42:29 Whoa, now I have a whole lot of cputransp methods, which one is reccomended? Oct 19 22:43:01 I guess ill just pick the latest arm one. Oct 19 22:43:22 but I could extend /usr that way, to be able to install more stuff, right? Oct 19 22:43:22 Quinlan^, arm-0.8.2-sb2 is what I use Oct 19 22:43:37 Crap, I jsut picked qemu-arm-cvs Oct 19 22:44:03 Well, it doesn't really matter. The newer the better I guess ;) Oct 19 22:44:52 Im just happy to have it working. Oct 19 22:44:58 ;) Oct 19 22:45:14 Quinlan^, what do you plan on working on? Oct 19 22:45:26 Im not sure, I just want to develop things for it. Whatever comes to mind. Oct 19 22:45:47 Nice. Oct 19 22:48:29 what type of card does the 770 take? Oct 19 22:48:33 MMC Oct 19 22:48:36 RS-MMC Oct 19 22:48:41 thanks Oct 19 22:49:22 ugh, now I'm getting this: dpkg-buildpackage: This error may be caused by SBOX_DPKG_BUILDDEPS. Oct 19 22:51:03 Im jsut going to try setting up the package without the debian devkit. Oct 19 22:52:36 What was the error? Oct 19 22:52:53 I get those kinds of errors all the time and it's usually something very simple. Oct 19 22:55:11 error: XML::Parser perl module is required for intltool Oct 19 22:56:13 you haven't installed the perl devkit. Oct 19 22:56:26 Did you bother reading the installation instructions? :P Oct 19 22:57:20 Yeah, but Neither the cputransp Or the perl devkits were on the required list. Oct 19 22:58:09 Well, that's because they're not required to actually compile something. But if you want to package things up and have the full SDK environment you should install everything the tutorial says to install :) Oct 19 22:58:35 the 2.2 tutorial seems out of date. Oct 19 22:58:45 It is :) Oct 19 22:59:45 Taht would make a lot of sense, actually. Oct 19 23:00:17 Urgh, my 770 never seams to be able to update its package lists. "Unable to refresh list. Last refresh list is shown" this is on a new fresh os install and I juast added the Maemo Hackers and Pidgin repositories... Oct 19 23:00:18 * Jaffa fills in lots of waffle on in his Device Program(me) application. Having to Google myself to remember everything, though :) Oct 19 23:02:56 HA Oct 19 23:02:58 IT WORKED Oct 19 23:03:00 I love you guys. Oct 19 23:05:52 Awww Oct 19 23:24:23 32 functions .. Oct 19 23:24:28 Boy I have been busy ^_^ Oct 20 00:01:32 <[31d1]> this guy is an idiot http://informationweek.com/blog/main/archives/2007/10/first_glance_th.html Oct 20 00:02:55 Comments section... kill him with fire Oct 20 00:04:22 well looks like it's been debunked already Oct 20 00:04:48 <[31d1]> "i dont get it - it's neither a crappy cellphone nor is it windows xp" Oct 20 00:04:51 1) "You have to spend *more* money on *another* smartphone." No, you can use an existing phone. Oct 20 00:04:56 yep Oct 20 00:05:05 <[31d1]> therefore it must not exist Oct 20 00:05:45 <[31d1]> i do think that teh N's don't make alot of sense if you're not a linux person Oct 20 00:06:23 Disagree. Oct 20 00:06:36 You don't need to know anything about Linux to use them as intended. Oct 20 00:06:57 It's once you want to go beyond that you need to learn. Oct 20 00:07:00 Which is good. Oct 20 00:07:11 Is double-tapping to zoom-in on a column of a webpage such a great idea? Oct 20 00:07:19 No. Oct 20 00:07:20 <[31d1]> yeah but out of the box i think they are kind of lame - at least comparatively Oct 20 00:07:38 <[31d1]> i gues fbreader and maemo mapper are bot worth at the least the price of a 770 Oct 20 00:07:42 A double tap is too easy to initiate by accident if you are scrolling and aren't pressing down quite hard enough. Oct 20 00:07:50 yeah Oct 20 00:08:11 it may be a better idea when you're using your fingers Oct 20 00:08:11 <[31d1]> but all the kismet, ssh, fuse, terminal stuff is _solid-gold_ imo Oct 20 00:08:18 since you have better tactile feedback Oct 20 00:08:35 but I haven't used an iphone, so I don't know Oct 20 00:09:10 Great for about five minutes. Oct 20 00:09:21 Once the novelty of the interface wears off... not much left. Oct 20 00:09:22 I often double-tap by mistake while trying to tap-and-hold. Oct 20 00:09:29 SLi: Same here. Oct 20 00:09:51 I _really_ wish the required hold time was configurable. Oct 20 00:10:21 I'm sure it is. Oct 20 00:10:37 I thought it was hard-coded in the public headers. Oct 20 00:10:39 Buried somewhere in gconf, I'd imagine. Oct 20 00:10:43 Maybe. Oct 20 00:10:46 I haven't looked. Oct 20 00:10:47 Trust me, I looked. Oct 20 00:11:11 Nothing stopping you from recompiling with a different value. Oct 20 00:11:41 I'd have to recompile everything... and that's too much work. Oct 20 00:11:59 Especially since we don't have the source code for everything. Oct 20 00:12:43 I wonder if Nokia developed their own gps software for n810, bought it or modified something free. Oct 20 00:12:54 I'm sure they just bought it. Oct 20 00:13:00 Probably yes. Oct 20 00:13:19 It is certainly not Maemo Mapper-based. Oct 20 00:13:44 I hope it won't kill interest in maemo-mapper. Oct 20 00:13:45 that'd been a waste :) Oct 20 00:13:52 I doubt it. Oct 20 00:14:08 People won't always want to pay $100 for routes, etc.. Oct 20 00:14:19 In fact, people will refuse to. Oct 20 00:14:27 Some. Oct 20 00:14:27 Like me. Oct 20 00:14:38 Others will pay because it'll be easier for them to deal with. Oct 20 00:14:42 Hm, right. Didn't think about their business model for the maps yet :) Oct 20 00:14:57 Maps are free. Oct 20 00:14:58 I also _really_ like being able to run a script and populate my POI database with entries from Wikipedia surrounding my current location. Oct 20 00:15:04 Routing, voice commands are extra. Oct 20 00:15:09 Interesting. Oct 20 00:15:17 derf: How did you manage to do that? Oct 20 00:15:29 Someone wrote a Python script for it. Oct 20 00:15:37 Using Geoclue. Oct 20 00:15:40 I didn't see that. Send me a link? Oct 20 00:15:41 Oh. Oct 20 00:15:46 Geoclue's broken. Oct 20 00:16:00 Well, that's going to be a problem then. Oct 20 00:16:05 Well, maemoplazer's broken, actually. Oct 20 00:16:28 Because plazes changed their API. Oct 20 00:16:36 I think Geoclue was recently fixed. Oct 20 00:16:38 I've been meaning to integrate it into Maemo Mapper itself, so you could just use the GPS directly. Oct 20 00:16:53 (and so I didn't need an 8MB Python interpreter for a 200-line script) Oct 20 00:17:20 Well, quite a lot of people have Python installed anyways. Oct 20 00:17:32 It is literally the only reason I have it installed. Oct 20 00:17:36 if the python interpreter was smaller, the script would end up being longer Oct 20 00:17:45 db48x: Not really. Oct 20 00:17:54 Yeah, but not 8 MB :) Oct 20 00:17:57 It does all the work with dbus and 3rd party libraries, anyway. Oct 20 00:18:05 I mean, it would probably be 300 lines of C. Oct 20 00:18:40 Aha, there's the link: http://bergie.iki.fi/blog/maemo_mapper-openstreetmap_and_wikipedia.html Oct 20 00:18:40 if it was the size of bash (10x smaller), then it would certainly be longer. so long you wouldn' Oct 20 00:18:43 t have written it Oct 20 00:18:49 derf: Thanks. Oct 20 00:19:55 it is not just willingness to pay for maps... it is more of willingness to pay for ACCURATE maps Oct 20 00:20:27 Commercial maps have deliberate mistakes to prove copyright infringement, I wonder if that's better. Oct 20 00:20:38 No, I would pay for maps. Oct 20 00:20:50 I would not pay a significant fraction of the cost of the device for maps. Oct 20 00:21:01 yahoo used to direct people into brick walls or locate addresses miles away from where it should be Oct 20 00:21:34 Especially when the marginal cost to them of the maps is virtuall $0. Oct 20 00:21:44 Depends on the type of maps. Good 1:25000 or so maps with height curves and stuff (I forget what they are called in English) for the whole world, I might well pay 100 euros for them ;) Oct 20 00:22:22 Oh yeah, the whole world is also a must. Oct 20 00:22:23 I think maps aren't very cheap to produce commercially. Oct 20 00:22:27 derf: Does the script work well? Oct 20 00:22:29 topological maps? Oct 20 00:22:41 zerojay: It's worked fine for me. Oct 20 00:23:13 topographic is the word you're looking for Oct 20 00:23:17 I guess. Oct 20 00:24:56 did see it but has it been confirmed if the 810 will do vorbis? Oct 20 00:25:02 and thorea Oct 20 00:25:22 It has been confirmed that they will not. Oct 20 00:25:29 ah :( Oct 20 00:25:32 Guys, does anyone use IDEA! ? Oct 20 00:25:34 Yes. :( Oct 20 00:26:00 Officially? Unofficially? I guess they shouldn't been too hard to port, though, if the CPU is fast enough. Oct 20 00:26:04 The closest thing to a straight answer as to why that I've seen thus far is that their lawyers will not let them ship them. Oct 20 00:26:06 -en Oct 20 00:26:27 lawyers would not let them ship vorbis?!! Oct 20 00:26:30 Caution. That might be wise, for a company, maybe. Oct 20 00:26:37 Well, lardman is working on Vorbis. I'm hoping when he's made some progress to maybe take a look at Theora. Oct 20 00:27:20 ds3, Fraunhofer (or someone else? I don't remember who) has asserted that there "must be" some of their patent minefield used in those, and that they will investigate and litigate if it gains enough market share. Oct 20 00:27:33 I'd be happier if they dropped MP3 entirely and went with Vorbis Oct 20 00:27:41 SLi: oh more FUD Oct 20 00:27:48 Never mind the fact that several independent patent reviews of Vorbis have been conducted, and all disagree with Fraunhofer. Oct 20 00:28:22 they should litigate and get their patents declared invalid instead ;) Oct 20 00:28:28 ds3, I know. Though they may be right. But I wouldn't be worried unless they identify some specific patent. After that, well, it would be tough for a company to quickly drop functionality from their devices. Oct 20 00:28:32 Yes. That would be nice. Oct 20 00:28:37 FUD is easier Oct 20 00:28:43 Assuming we (Xiph) had any money to defend ourselves. Oct 20 00:28:56 Which, honestly, we do not. Oct 20 00:29:32 having seen then results with SCO... Oct 20 00:29:56 Well, the real reason they'll never sue us is that we don't have a bikkion dokkars. Oct 20 00:30:09 Don't underestimate software patents. I'm not sure about sound/audio codecs (I'd guess they as heavily patented as compilers), but I'm confident that it isn't possible to write a modern compiler without infringing at least some granted sw patents (of course whether those patents are actually valid is another unsolved issue). Oct 20 00:30:29 SLi: Oh. I'm quite aware. Oct 20 00:30:58 derf, that's why they will attack a major company, not the OSS developer community. Oct 20 00:31:19 when's the patent expire? Oct 20 00:31:33 SLi: Right. I didn't say I didn't understand why they chickened out. Oct 20 00:31:41 Depends on the country. Usually something like 20 years. Oct 20 00:31:59 but when was it issued Oct 20 00:32:07 Which patent? Oct 20 00:32:18 the MP3 ones Oct 20 00:32:40 But that doesn't change the fact that they gave up doing the right thing in order to do the easier thing. Oct 20 00:33:02 Unlike, say, IBM. Oct 20 00:33:15 http://www.tunequest.org/a-big-list-of-mp3-patents/20070226/ Oct 20 00:35:15 The funny thing is, most big companies are protected against most other big companies because both have enough patents that are relevant to the other. Oct 20 00:35:38 But it's companies that just (invent and) patent stuff that are problematic. Oct 20 00:35:55 And of course it doesn't help you if you aren't a big company. :P Oct 20 00:36:58 SLi: Most patent troll companies do not do any actual inventing. Oct 20 00:37:03 They buy their patent portfolios. Oct 20 00:37:36 If they were comptent enough to actually innovate in some field, they wouldn't need to resort to litigation as a business model. Oct 20 00:38:15 derf, that's true. But if I've understood correctly, e.g. Fraunhofer Institute tries to live mostly on research and have little products of their own. Oct 20 00:38:17 well, that or an MBA was competent enough to innovate in _his_ field, and invent the patent-litigation company Oct 20 00:38:51 db48x: Sadly, that is not a new innovation. Oct 20 00:39:04 it was at some point Oct 20 00:40:21 * db48x yawns Oct 20 00:40:25 my bedtime Oct 20 00:40:36 Luckily, and sadly, sw patents are a bit of grey area nearly everywhere (if I've understood correctly, in the US they are quite mainstream accepted, but it hasn't been proven in the supreme court; In Japan they are quite definitely enforceable; and in Europe, we have de facto sw patents in most countries, and they are a very grey area). Oct 20 00:41:13 My country, Finland supports software patents, because we are owned by Nokia. Oct 20 00:41:29 heh Oct 20 00:41:48 And US tries to push them hard to other countries too. Oct 20 00:42:10 Yes, because we own most of them. Oct 20 00:43:22 I'm not sure how relevant that is, US patents wouldn't probably be directly enforceable elsewhere, but then, even now of course European companies can't sell stuff in US that infringes US patents. Oct 20 00:43:47 SLi: It's even worse than that. Oct 20 00:44:05 US laws might as well be world laws now. Oct 20 00:44:06 Europen companies cannot sell stuff in Europe that infringe US patents if they also wish to sell them in the US. Oct 20 00:44:28 Because the patent agreements they sign for the US demand royalties for everywhere else, also. Oct 20 00:44:29 I.e. if you really want worldwide coverage, you have to patent it everywhere. Most companies dodge the expenses by getting patents only in a few key countries. Oct 20 00:44:33 Irregardless of jurisdiction. Oct 20 00:44:39 Makes me think about how they grabbed that Aussie teenager and extradited him for piracy to the US even though he's never been there. Oct 20 00:44:45 Hmm, that kind of makes sense. Oct 20 00:45:12 I once was in a heart rate monitor coder team in a company, I think it was in 2000... Oct 20 00:45:45 We made distinct EU and US versions of our devices, with an one-bit difference in the code. Oct 20 00:46:25 The EU version could show the amount of ascent or descent (it estimated it from air pressure variations), the US version could only show the start level and the current level. Oct 20 00:46:47 In ft, estimated, from the sea level. Oct 20 00:47:15 Because using air pressure variations to estimate amount ascended or descended was patented in the US! Oct 20 00:47:24 Brillian. Oct 20 00:47:25 +t Oct 20 00:47:50 Yes, who could possibly have come up with that idea. Oct 20 00:48:28 Now I must say some ideas seem more brilliant, but I'm still not convinced that patents are the right way to protect them. Oct 20 00:48:53 They're not. Oct 20 00:49:05 For software in particular, patents do far more harm than good. Oct 20 00:49:16 For example, the devices had a way to transfer data to them from computers "using sound", i.e. you put them in front of your speaker and push a button in the Windows UI to play some sound. Oct 20 00:49:19 Pretty much every economic study in existence concludes the same thing. Oct 20 00:49:22 I don't see software patents requiring enough monetary investment to require patent protection. Weighed against the harms, benefits are negligible. Oct 20 00:49:49 The genious thing (that wasn't told to the user anyway) is that the sound was entirely a byproduct, the device used the magnetic field of the speaker. Oct 20 00:50:44 But see, that sounds like an actual device. Oct 20 00:50:50 Now I don't like the patent system even outside the sw field, but I don't really know how such inventions should be protected either. Although I doubt innovation would stop even if the entire patent system was scrapped. Oct 20 00:50:53 I.e., someone had to build some hardware to measure the field. Oct 20 00:51:15 Yeah, but the air pressure thing involves air pressure sensors too ;) Oct 20 00:51:33 (And it's really just an antenna in the sound thing.) Oct 20 00:52:03 We do antenna design. It's not always as easy as you might think. Oct 20 00:52:09 Yeah. Oct 20 00:52:32 But anyway... if the antenna itself was not patentable, I don't see why the software should've been. Oct 20 00:53:07 Just like if your air pressure sensors were not patentable, the software to estimate altitude from them should not have been, either. Oct 20 00:53:12 Well, the argument usually goes, why should you be able to get around a patent just by using sw instead of hardware in some step? Oct 20 00:53:43 That's why they try to talk a lot about "computer-implemented inventions". Oct 20 00:54:11 Well, that and the US Supreme Court has ruled they have to. Oct 20 00:54:15 Because they argue that it's not in the nature of the inventions that you need a computer, you just can use a computer as a part of the invention and that arguably shouldn't get you around the patent protection. Oct 20 00:55:11 that's the german law iirc Oct 20 00:55:53 Well, yeah, in US it's not the software that's patented, it's the computer that does something and the software just happens to be part of it. "Method and apparatus for ...". And showing stuff on the screen is considered a physical interaction with the world. Oct 20 00:56:21 And the pro-patent people would like to confuse things in the EU in the same way. Oct 20 00:56:35 well it has kept ogg off my tablet, and for that alone i hate it. Oct 20 00:56:45 sorry to be so banal :) Oct 20 00:56:57 ogg is mixed up with patents? Oct 20 00:57:24 The entire point of the Ogg project is to provide patent-unencumbered alteratives. Oct 20 00:57:34 there are persistent rumors of threats by mp3 patentholders against ogg Oct 20 00:57:46 And again, in some cases it kind of makes sense. If we assume the patent system is a good thing (which I generally don't), then it probably shouldn't be possible to get around a patent just by replacing some hardware with software. The problem is that software is becoming more and more powerful. Oct 20 00:57:49 they would probably never hold up in court Oct 20 00:57:55 Rumors that have all been well and thoroughly debunked. Oct 20 00:58:06 But not in a court of law. Oct 20 00:58:32 right, and the mp3 patentholders know this, so they don't sue - knowing that the threat is effective only until struck down Oct 20 00:58:38 The problem is that software is just math. Oct 20 00:58:46 And math is not, and should not, be patentable. Oct 20 00:59:01 I agree wholeheartedly with that. Oct 20 00:59:12 And interestingly in the US it's been ruled to be speech too. Oct 20 00:59:12 i could be wrong about patent threat affecting the decision to support ogg in dsp Oct 20 00:59:14 Like a recipe. Oct 20 00:59:18 nice Oct 20 00:59:26 pupnik: You are not wrong. Oct 20 00:59:40 And basically, patents shouldn't prevent people from telling how something is done. Oct 20 00:59:43 SLi: I thought that ruling went the other way. Oct 20 00:59:50 But that's exactly what they do - with programs! Oct 20 00:59:55 I want a patent on PI! ;) Oct 20 00:59:58 derf, it was in the PGP case. Oct 20 01:00:08 ds3: Apply for one. You'll probably get it. Oct 20 01:00:19 derf, that got crypto export restrictions scrapped. Oct 20 01:00:20 pupnik: not the only problem of decoding ogg on the dsp Oct 20 01:00:32 derf: then file patent suits against all the universities ;) Oct 20 01:00:35 i think vorbisidec/tremor is free Oct 20 01:00:37 I wanted to implement it but decoding ogg takes *a lot* of memory Oct 20 01:00:43 ah :/ Oct 20 01:00:48 ds3: You're going about this wrong. Oct 20 01:00:50 give me a PhD or I'll sue you out of existance! =) Oct 20 01:00:55 Universities don't have any money. Oct 20 01:01:09 Sue the car manufacturers, for all their insidious WHEELS. Oct 20 01:01:27 wumpus: maybe you could hook up with other ppl to get it worked-out? Oct 20 01:01:29 Some of the granted bogus patents are truly hilarious. Oct 20 01:01:36 but if you talk to PhD students and the number years of their lives they paid to get it, it is worth more then money! Oct 20 01:01:39 Like the Method of Swinging on a Swing patent. Oct 20 01:01:40 i liked the patent on XOR in australia Oct 20 01:01:45 haha Oct 20 01:01:54 ds3: My Ph.D. only took 4 years. Oct 20 01:02:00 And then someone patented wheel, literally, IIRC in Australia. The Swing patent was in the US. Oct 20 01:02:05 And I came out with a lot more money than I went in with. Oct 20 01:02:17 derf: but that's 4 years ofyour life you'll never get back Oct 20 01:02:23 congrats derf :) Oct 20 01:02:26 maemo-installer-utils not included in chinook sdk? wonder if it's installed on the device Oct 20 01:02:37 man, i'm in the wrong phd program Oct 20 01:02:39 Yes. Similarly to all the years before it I won't get back, either. Oct 20 01:02:48 http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?u=%2Fnetahtml%2Fsrchnum.htm&Sect1=PTO1&Sect2=HITOFF&p=1&r=1&l=50&f=G&d=PALL&s1=6368227.PN.&OS=PN/6368227&RS=PN/6368227 Oct 20 01:03:00 I like it. "A method of swing on a swing is disclosed, in which a user positioned on a standard swing suspended by two chains from a substantially horizontal tree branch induces side to side motion by pulling alternately on one chain and then the other." Oct 20 01:03:18 i think i can claim prior art on that Oct 20 01:03:39 celesteh, possibly, but you have to pay the reexamination fee to do that. Oct 20 01:04:07 PI: a method of measuring angular relationships where 2 entities.... Oct 20 01:04:37 hence forth claim pi as: 1 a method of determining distances around round objects.... Oct 20 01:04:39 :) Oct 20 01:05:25 This would be an excellent time to mention http://www.keithschofield.com/pi/std.html Oct 20 01:05:25 There's the Australian wheel patent, "circular transportation facilitation device": http://www.cs.virginia.edu/~gfx/Courses/2002/BigData/papers/Misc/Wheel%20Patent.pdf Oct 20 01:05:59 I'd say it's still a bit more obscured than "method of swinging on a swing", but.. Oct 20 01:07:29 i'm going to patent the tuba Oct 20 01:07:56 There's even a picture of, well, a wheel on the wheel patent. Oct 20 01:08:20 an arephone of extreme length with which can be used to produce bass tones through the user making a "raspberry" sound with their lips Oct 20 01:08:47 I'm sure the patent examiner who saw that said, "Hah, I'll show my bosses. APPROVED." Oct 20 01:09:25 "In particular, the device relates to a circular object which enables such goods and persons to be held above a surface and simultaneously moved with respect to the surface approximately parallel thereto." Oct 20 01:11:03 I can't believe that got granted Oct 20 01:13:32 hello? Oct 20 01:13:36 The response from the Commissioner of Patents? "To obtain the patent for a wheel would require a false claim, which is a very serious matter and would certainly invalidate the patent as well as amounting to a misrepresentation on the part of the applicant and unprofessional conduct by any professional advisor". Oct 20 01:14:50 That case was some kind of fast-track thing I think, the US patent for Method of Swinging on a Swing passed full examination. Oct 20 01:15:28 that pi viedeo is truly weird Oct 20 01:15:58 Can anyone help me with what I assume is a bug? Oct 20 01:16:24 thejapanesegeek: Sure. Oct 20 01:17:26 zerojay: I installed a bunch of apps on my n800. I didn't like that they where in the Extras folder, so I moved them out of that folder. Oct 20 01:17:34 The folder was still there, but empty. Oct 20 01:17:46 I deleted it, which may not have been a great idea. Oct 20 01:18:04 I tried to install some new apps today. Oct 20 01:18:22 they appear in the app manager, but they do not appear anywhere else. Oct 20 01:18:37 I tried to make a new Extras folder in Navigation, but it tells me the folder already exists. Oct 20 01:18:38 Hmm. Oct 20 01:18:50 Yeah, I'd call that a bug. File it. Oct 20 01:19:01 okay. Oct 20 01:19:50 I would say that the expected behavior is that the apps are moved to a folder that exists or Extras is recreated if missing in the menu. Oct 20 01:20:40 anything to do but reflash it to get it to work? Oct 20 01:20:55 I don't know. I haven't come across that problem myself. Oct 20 01:21:10 But it would be nice to have it fixed before the next IT OS comes out. :) Oct 20 01:25:35 Reinstalling will be a pain. I can't get wifi here right now, so I have to manually download debs from apt repos. It's not fun. Oct 20 01:33:41 https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=2144 Oct 20 01:33:45 submitted. Oct 20 02:03:21 maemoscrobbler build for chinook ready in extras repo Oct 20 02:21:17 SLi, pupnik, et al.: http://www.pledgebank.com/nokia-ogg Oct 20 02:21:30 If you really would like Vorbis support out of the box. Oct 20 02:24:27 *sigh* I need an account to file a website bug about being unable to use my garage account on maemo.org? Oct 20 02:24:59 o is bugzilla separate? Oct 20 02:25:22 separate Oct 20 02:27:30 is weird that https://maemo.org and http://maemo.org are so different Oct 20 02:42:16 rdesktop 0.4 chinook build ready in extras repo Oct 20 02:45:53 Solarion: Yes, bugzilla is separate. Oct 20 02:46:06 zerojay: I've filed my bug. :) Oct 20 02:46:12 Cool. Oct 20 02:46:26 zerojay: cool will be when its cause is found and fixed. :) **** ENDING LOGGING AT Sat Oct 20 02:59:56 2007