**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Sun Dec 16 03:00:02 2007
Dec 16 03:27:49 <GAN800> Anybody else having issues with the desktop crashing when a bluetooth keyboard wakes from sleep?
Dec 16 03:38:46 <GAN800> Well hello there, thoughtfix. Unusual to see you 'round this neck of the woods. :)
Dec 16 03:39:02 <thoughtfix> Nah... I've been trying to IRC more
Dec 16 03:39:39 <GAN800> It's a good place to be. ;)
Dec 16 03:39:57 <thoughtfix> That and you all keep me company while I am without an N810
Dec 16 03:39:57 <thoughtfix> hehe
Dec 16 03:40:51 <GAN800> Haha, had to send it back to Nokia then, I suppose?
Dec 16 03:41:47 <thoughtfix> Yeah
Dec 16 03:41:51 <thoughtfix> It was a pre-release, after all
Dec 16 03:42:10 <GAN800> The N800 is a better machine anyway. ;)
Dec 16 03:42:17 <thoughtfix> Mmm ... Not for mobile blogging
Dec 16 03:42:23 <thoughtfix> and I want one for the CES show floor
Dec 16 03:42:35 <thoughtfix> The N800 is a better media machine, to be sure.
Dec 16 03:42:37 <halley> Isn't that in March or something?
Dec 16 03:42:45 <thoughtfix> CES? Second week of January
Dec 16 03:42:54 <halley> Oh, earlier than I thought.
Dec 16 03:43:07 <halley> I guess I needed a thought fix.
Dec 16 03:43:07 <halley> ;)
Dec 16 03:44:06 <thoughtfix> Hahaha
Dec 16 03:44:18 <thoughtfix> Want to know how I came by "thoughtfix?"
Dec 16 03:44:20 <halley> Is there a way to package things up into install debs ON the device?  Scratchbox isn't for OSX.
Dec 16 03:44:40 <thoughtfix> .... Parallels or VMWare? ;)
Dec 16 03:44:43 <thoughtfix> <3 parallels
Dec 16 03:44:59 * halley shudders.
Dec 16 03:45:29 <halley> I guess that's an option but ugh.
Dec 16 03:45:54 <pupnik> yes thoughtfix
Dec 16 03:46:54 <thoughtfix> Parallels or VMWare will give you a native dev environment for Scratchbox.
Dec 16 03:46:59 <thoughtfix> :)
Dec 16 03:47:26 <thoughtfix> pupnik: I started googling, then punching stuff through thesaurus sites, and more.
Dec 16 03:47:32 <thoughtfix> Thoughtfix had zero google results
Dec 16 03:47:36 <thoughtfix> So I kept it
Dec 16 03:48:06 <halley> The 2000's equivalent of the 'Grateful Dead' story.
Dec 16 03:48:29 <thoughtfix> haha
Dec 16 03:48:53 <shackan> oh, thoughtfix in "person"
Dec 16 03:49:06 <thoughtfix> You say that like I am famous
Dec 16 03:49:07 <thoughtfix> heh
Dec 16 03:49:15 <halley> I guess the question now is, is that "fix" like "spay"?
Dec 16 03:49:26 <GAN800> That's not far from the truth around here. :P
Dec 16 03:49:30 <thoughtfix> <-- trying to be just another guy of the community.... Except one who bugs PR people more :D
Dec 16 03:49:36 <thoughtfix> Yes... the words were "brain neuter"
Dec 16 03:49:39 <thoughtfix> ;)
Dec 16 03:50:26 <halley> 思直
Dec 16 03:50:52 <ol_schoola> not in front of the children halley
Dec 16 03:51:00 <thoughtfix> :o
Dec 16 03:51:03 <thoughtfix> What was that?
Dec 16 03:51:35 <halley> utf-8 kanji:  omou naosu, or thought fix.
Dec 16 03:51:57 <thoughtfix> Now I have to save it :)
Dec 16 03:52:16 <thefool> any word on the canola release?
Dec 16 03:52:18 <shackan> thoughtfix: I just rehashed your n800 disassembly video a couple of days ago to see if there's any possibility to mod it into a different case + a homemade keyboard, since I have an unused leather 'box' (it's like a wallet, but rigid) at home which fits the n800 perfectly
Dec 16 03:52:38 <halley> Hm, is there poetic justice if "canola" is to "slip"?
Dec 16 03:52:55 <shackan> thefool: no, sorry, now pull your pants on please
Dec 16 03:53:00 <thefool> lol
Dec 16 03:53:03 <ol_schoola> thoughtfix: tramp-stamp!
Dec 16 03:53:12 <thoughtfix> rofl
Dec 16 03:53:44 <thoughtfix> My brain/tool logo is my next tattoo ... going under my collar (brain stem!)
Dec 16 03:53:49 * thefool is so confused right now
Dec 16 03:54:26 <thoughtfix> shackan: I think it's possible to build your own case but it won't be as secure.
Dec 16 03:54:44 <shackan> yeah, I tought that
Dec 16 03:54:48 <thoughtfix> halley: Slip as in "leak out?"
Dec 16 03:55:06 <GAN800> I'd be worried about durability with a custom case.
Dec 16 03:55:14 <halley> slip as in canola oil slick, or slip as in schedule shift
Dec 16 03:55:53 <GAN800> Can you imagine them shipping canola oil around in super-tankers?
Dec 16 03:55:54 <thoughtfix> GAN800: Exactly - I'd worry about ANY flex. That board is not made to bend
Dec 16 03:55:56 <shackan> thoughtfix: the thing would be closed with a zip (so pieces won't fly accidentally) when not in use and then would hold open like a microlaptop, at least that's what I had in mind
Dec 16 03:56:08 <shackan> s/hold/fold/
Dec 16 03:56:08 <infobot> shackan meant: thoughtfix: the thing would be closed with a zip (so pieces won't fly accidentally) when not in use and then would fold open like a microlaptop, at least that's what I had in mind
Dec 16 03:56:41 <GAN800> Mobile devices tend to be designed to put stress on the case, a custom case is going to put stress right on the device componentsw
Dec 16 03:56:42 * pupnik tries to console himself with the idea that tooling and QC on the production line will improve over the first batch
Dec 16 03:56:44 <GAN800> which is bad.
Dec 16 03:57:36 <thoughtfix> shackan: Could be a challenge.
Dec 16 03:57:40 <halley> I've not really seen the N810 as being delicate.  Slippery as a bar of wet soap, yes.  Delicate, not really.
Dec 16 03:57:42 <GAN800> To make up for the fact that you're never actually going to get yours, pupnik? :P
Dec 16 03:58:11 * pupnik sits in a corner and eats lentils mournfully
Dec 16 03:58:36 <ol_schoola> thoughtfix: speaking of slippery/wet, i should dig up thte irc log detailing my n800's unplanned swimming trip
Dec 16 03:58:42 <thoughtfix> Why mournfully?
Dec 16 03:58:52 <thoughtfix> What happened?
Dec 16 03:59:02 <ol_schoola> lemme find the log....
Dec 16 03:59:14 <halley> Who owns the infobot?  They should be shot.
Dec 16 03:59:16 <pupnik> it rolled down the stairs
Dec 16 03:59:21 <pupnik> infobot is fine
Dec 16 03:59:22 <GAN800> ol_schoola, it did come out OK in the end, right?
Dec 16 03:59:29 <ol_schoola> i'll do a re-write as an after action report
Dec 16 03:59:30 <shackan> pupnik: ...and ?
Dec 16 03:59:32 <ol_schoola> yes it lives
Dec 16 03:59:45 <pupnik> thoughtfix: well .. things aint so hot over here.
Dec 16 03:59:52 <GAN800> It's the anti-botism channel here.
Dec 16 04:00:41 <GAN800> First _Monkey, now infobot . . . where will it end?!
Dec 16 04:01:49 <shackan> resistance in futile
Dec 16 04:01:56 <shackan> s/in/is/
Dec 16 04:01:57 <infobot> shackan meant: resistance is futile
Dec 16 04:02:00 <shackan> see?
Dec 16 04:02:10 <thefool> hey..I like that
Dec 16 04:02:41 <thefool> s/../...
Dec 16 04:02:55 <GAN800> close it
Dec 16 04:02:57 <thefool> s/\.\./\.\.\.
Dec 16 04:03:06 * halley rolls his eyes.
Dec 16 04:03:06 <thefool> s/../.../
Dec 16 04:03:27 <thoughtfix> s/".."/"/..."
Dec 16 04:03:30 <thoughtfix> Recurse
Dec 16 04:03:31 <thoughtfix> loop
Dec 16 04:03:34 <thoughtfix> destroy world
Dec 16 04:03:40 <thoughtfix> "It was a bad period day"
Dec 16 04:04:20 <halley> s/shot/`rm -rf \/`/e
Dec 16 04:05:36 <ol_schoola> found it! it is at 07:40   http://mg.pov.lt/maemo-irclog/%23maemo.2007-12-05.log.html
Dec 16 04:05:57 <zerojay> If you need a bot to tell you what s/foo/bar means, you're in the wrong channel. :)
Dec 16 04:06:31 <pupnik> anybody know where N810s are manufactured?
Dec 16 04:06:52 <halley> ol_schoola, er, no timestamps?
Dec 16 04:07:05 <shackan> pupnik: wanna grab one off a truck leaving the factory? :D
Dec 16 04:07:36 <pupnik> curous about costs, exchange rates, how much the dollar slide will hurt N810 sales etc
Dec 16 04:07:54 <pupnik> but it's probably sekrit
Dec 16 04:08:07 <ol_schoola> halley: stamps are on the right side
Dec 16 04:08:27 <halley> Oh, quality html.
Dec 16 04:08:41 <thoughtfix> That is a big log there
Dec 16 04:09:51 * ol_schoola will be back in 5
Dec 16 04:11:18 <halley> Sounds like a very long process to dry it out.  Some folks say "stick it in a toaster oven" but low pressure is better than elevated heat.  Put it on the SUCTION side of a large housefan for an hour.  Voila.
Dec 16 04:15:04 <pupnik> or a lab-grade dessicator
Dec 16 04:15:17 <pupnik> well ... vacuum might break something :)
Dec 16 04:15:29 <pupnik> insects do amazingly well in a vacuum btw
Dec 16 04:16:20 <dragorn> pupnik: problem w/ your 810?
Dec 16 04:16:46 * pupnik pours soup on dragorn
Dec 16 04:21:42 <unique311> the internet is boring now.  random
Dec 16 04:23:56 <ol_schoola> sorry bout that, Mr Plow came around. we have a deal -- he steps in for a cuppa, i get to do the cul-de-sac
Dec 16 04:24:41 <ol_schoola> the biggest frontend loader i've ever operated, has a full size plow on it
Dec 16 04:25:42 <ol_schoola> pupnik: would have if i could. the QA/shipping were i used to work had all the enviro chambers. neat stuff
Dec 16 04:28:05 <pupnik> the internet is going to get very exciting in about 1/2 hour :)  ~T-E-A P-A-R-T-Y!~  :D :D :D
Dec 16 04:29:28 <zerojay> ?
Dec 16 04:29:40 <dragorn> if that's anything like lemonparty, get out now :P
Dec 16 04:30:15 <halley> I'm thinking more like Boston Tea Party.
Dec 16 04:30:42 <thoughtfix> Teaparty?
Dec 16 04:31:10 <dragorn> I suppose I should try to find out what this packet corruption nonsense people are complaining about is
Dec 16 04:35:12 <pupnik> http://ronpaulgraphs.com/yesterday_vs_today_line.html  You can watch history being made tomorrow here... :)
Dec 16 04:35:26 <pupnik> 25 minutes to blastoff :)
Dec 16 04:35:41 <shackan> history?
Dec 16 04:35:45 <shackan> am I missing something?
Dec 16 04:35:58 <pupnik> A new record for campaign donations
Dec 16 04:36:24 <shackan> mkay
Dec 16 04:36:27 <shackan> so what?
Dec 16 04:36:45 * halley didn't realize he was in #politics.
Dec 16 04:36:51 <lopz> bye
Dec 16 04:37:04 <shackan> pupnik: 100k is a drop in the water for a presidential campaign
Dec 16 04:38:16 <pupnik> This is just the first breeze before the storm.  :)  Those first wafts of wind.  Blastoff in 22 minutes :)
Dec 16 04:38:56 <halley> Nullifying *!n=pupnik@*.pools.arcor-ip.net for 1 hour.
Dec 16 04:39:00 <shackan> WAAAT happens in 22 minutes?
Dec 16 04:39:10 <shackan> 21...
Dec 16 04:39:50 <GAN800> It's #maemo, halley.
Dec 16 04:39:56 <GAN800> We discuss a lot of things.
Dec 16 04:40:00 <shackan> and I'm curious
Dec 16 04:40:58 <halley> It's not a discussion, it's fanboi politics.
Dec 16 04:41:39 <GAN800> Pfft
Dec 16 04:41:48 <GAN800> Only because you write it off as such.
Dec 16 04:41:52 <zerojay> So why do we need to know that you have him "nullifiied" then?
Dec 16 04:42:02 <zerojay> Who cares?
Dec 16 04:42:02 * halley shrugs.
Dec 16 04:42:15 <thoughtfix> Okay
Dec 16 04:42:16 <thoughtfix> so
Dec 16 04:42:28 <thoughtfix> Ever see that movie Twins?
Dec 16 04:42:33 <pupnik> nope
Dec 16 04:42:36 <zerojay> Long time ago.
Dec 16 04:42:43 <thoughtfix> Danny DeVito and some big guy who spoke funny?
Dec 16 04:42:44 <thoughtfix> Anyway
Dec 16 04:42:49 <shackan> with schwarzie?
Dec 16 04:43:00 <thoughtfix> Let's take the "genetic material" from all the male candidates
Dec 16 04:43:07 <thoughtfix> And make a supercandidate
Dec 16 04:43:11 <thoughtfix> and implant it in Hillary
Dec 16 04:43:21 <zerojay> Didn't the Nazis already try that?
Dec 16 04:43:29 <thoughtfix> rofl
Dec 16 04:43:53 <shackan> zerojay: I tought dna was discovered in the sixties
Dec 16 04:44:20 <zerojay> shackan: Oh, so you think the Nazis just kind of went away after 1945?
Dec 16 04:44:38 <shackan> uhmmm
Dec 16 04:44:54 <zerojay> Hillary's 200 years old, so that's not a problem.
Dec 16 04:45:14 <shackan> ok, this doesn't make any sense
Dec 16 04:45:26 <zerojay> Anyone else see that page of horrible Hillary pics? Just hilarious.
Dec 16 04:45:26 <shackan> at least Godwin was proven right once again..
Dec 16 04:45:29 <zerojay> None touched up.
Dec 16 04:45:54 <zerojay> Just taken at the worse possible times when she's got her mouth wide open... that sort of thing.
Dec 16 04:48:45 <pupnik> structure of dna was watson and crick, they knew about it before then though
Dec 16 04:49:31 <thoughtfix> Mmm
Dec 16 04:49:33 <thoughtfix> she may be old
Dec 16 04:49:36 <thoughtfix> but I'd still hit it
Dec 16 04:49:38 <pupnik> thoughtfix: the gps performance in your vid seemed pretty good.  Surprised by the number of complaints about it
Dec 16 04:49:48 <zerojay> thoughtfix: With a baseball bat, maybe.
Dec 16 04:49:56 <thoughtfix> pupnik: The performance is good but lock-on times are still slow.
Dec 16 04:50:19 <pupnik> did the contest for the n810 video end yet?
Dec 16 04:50:55 <thoughtfix> Yep... And some contestants have their prizes already
Dec 16 04:51:01 <zerojay> Is Reggie still going through with that idea that the ITT community will vote for someone to get a free N810?
Dec 16 04:51:03 <thoughtfix> I hope the winner gets her N810 soon
Dec 16 04:51:24 <dragorn> pupnik: My 810 gps is disappointing
Dec 16 04:51:54 <dragorn> pupnik: Another friends took an hour to get a lock, too.  But I'm used to a sirf3, I don't know what's in there
Dec 16 04:53:43 <pupnik> who won?  i can't find the poll atm
Dec 16 04:56:12 <thoughtfix> http://tabletblog.com/2007/11/nokia-n810-giveaway-winners-circle.html
Dec 16 04:58:59 <pupnik> her daughter is awesome
Dec 16 04:59:10 <pupnik> "look!  music!" <dances>
Dec 16 05:00:51 <pupnik> heeeere weeeee gooooo! :)
Dec 16 05:01:17 <shackan> so, who?
Dec 16 05:02:03 <pupnik> Jennifer, jdsvid
Dec 16 05:03:09 <shackan> pupnik: I was talking about the election
Dec 16 05:04:05 <pupnik> the moneybomb for Ron Paul has begun :) teaparty07.com
Dec 16 05:04:38 <shackan> oh, fine
Dec 16 05:04:43 <shackan> whatever that means..
Dec 16 05:06:44 <pupnik> Buon giorno shackan :)
Dec 16 05:06:58 <thoughtfix> Hmm
Dec 16 05:07:12 <thoughtfix> I can find no fault in Ron Paul because I can find no stands he's taken.
Dec 16 05:07:50 <thoughtfix> For or against abortion? For or against gay marriage? Style of educational funding? I can't find it.
Dec 16 05:09:15 <zerojay> I'm glad I don't ever have to think about those questions in Canada.
Dec 16 05:11:05 <pupnik> ronpaullibrary.org  antiwar.com/paul  lewrockwell.com/paul  ronpaulaudio.com
Dec 16 05:11:12 <pupnik> Holy hell... $15,000 per minute the last couple minutes.
Dec 16 05:11:24 <zerojay> We don't care.
Dec 16 05:11:34 <shackan> seriously
Dec 16 05:20:32 <GAN800> thoughfix, if it's not in the Constitution, then he's against it. :)p
Dec 16 05:22:13 <thoughtfix> Hmm
Dec 16 05:23:27 <pupnik_> Elevation:  $200,000, cruising speed: $400,000/hr
Dec 16 05:23:35 <zerojay> ugh...
Dec 16 05:23:57 <GAN800> You don't need to read it, zerojay.
Dec 16 05:24:08 <GAN800> Not like anything else important is happening. :P
Dec 16 05:24:46 <thefool> pupnik: he has no chance of actually winning, get over it
Dec 16 05:25:03 <GAN800> That's a nice attitude
Dec 16 05:25:23 <thoughtfix> Well
Dec 16 05:25:28 <thoughtfix> There's good reason behind it
Dec 16 05:25:33 <thoughtfix> http://www.issues2000.org/Ron_Paul.htm  <-- too many things to not like
Dec 16 05:25:39 <thoughtfix> er
Dec 16 05:25:41 <thoughtfix> to dislike
Dec 16 05:25:42 <GAN800> Like what?
Dec 16 05:26:00 <GAN800> What's with the hate on personal freedom and responsibility these days?
Dec 16 05:26:15 <GAN800> Why does the government need to babysit everybody?
Dec 16 05:26:15 <thefool> how about him calling the ICC a threat to our soverneigty
Dec 16 05:26:26 <shackan> pupnik_: I tought elections were won over votes rather than funding
Dec 16 05:26:59 <GAN800> funding helps to get votes. ;)
Dec 16 05:27:05 <zerojay> My problem is that I just don't see the excitement about giving yet another old white guy money just like every other time before when people that could really use that money, like the homeless are freezing out there during the Christmas holidays.
Dec 16 05:27:09 <GAN800> You try and run a campaign for president with no money.
Dec 16 05:27:25 <zerojay> And I certainly don't need second by second updates about how much money is being wasted on it either.
Dec 16 05:27:39 <GAN800> zerojay, the homeless have plenty of opportunities available to them.
Dec 16 05:27:39 <thefool> He is old and ugly, Americans are stupid and shallow. I will say it again; Not a chance!
Dec 16 05:27:54 <GAN800> There are dozens of shelters in any city of decent size.
Dec 16 05:28:00 <shackan> who has the best hair among the candidates?
Dec 16 05:28:11 <thefool> GAN800: and they are ALL full at ALL times
Dec 16 05:28:17 <pupnik_> shackan: the news media has been ignoring the campaign, as he is a threat to the vested interests, the political elite, and the corporate welfarists :)  The money bomb is a way to show support and get media coverage.
Dec 16 05:28:45 <GAN800> You have some numbers to back that claim up, thefool?
Dec 16 05:28:49 <thefool> shackan: now thats something Americans would be willing to decide a presidency on
Dec 16 05:29:04 <pupnik_> http://techpresident.com/scrape_plot/meetup_supporter  <<< stats for grassroots support
Dec 16 05:29:08 <thefool> to back what up exactly?
Dec 16 05:29:26 <shackan> thefool: tall guy, best hair, is how it works
Dec 16 05:29:32 <GAN800> You claim that all shelters are full all the time.
Dec 16 05:29:36 <GAN800> I disagree
Dec 16 05:29:59 <GAN800> Around here, shelters turn away a lot of people because they don't accept you when you're drunk or high.
Dec 16 05:30:02 <thefool> I have allegorical proof... the tall guy best looks that doesn't do something stupid wins the caucus.
Dec 16 05:30:08 <shackan> pupnik_: ok, but those are private citizens, right? not big corporations, it doesn't make sense.. why would they waste their money like that?
Dec 16 05:30:24 <zerojay> Because they think it's going to change things.
Dec 16 05:30:27 <zerojay> It won't.
Dec 16 05:30:31 <pupnik> shackan: it's an investment in future prosperity and liberty
Dec 16 05:30:38 <shackan> ok, wow
Dec 16 05:30:46 <GAN800> Yes, zerojay, sitting back and taking it is the way to do it. :P
Dec 16 05:30:49 <zerojay> You lost all of that long again.
Dec 16 05:30:51 <zerojay> ago
Dec 16 05:31:01 <thefool> GAN800: ah that I only have allegorical proof on, I am in South Florida. I have visited Atlanta, Georgia and in both I frequently go to homeless shelters to try and help out.
Dec 16 05:31:03 <shackan> pupnik: you're sounding just like an idealistic naive idiot, y'know?
Dec 16 05:31:06 <GAN800> What's wrong with trying to get it back.
Dec 16 05:31:18 <pupnik> shackan: i know, Dr. Paul cured my apathy! :)
Dec 16 05:31:27 <shackan> sigh, poor soul...
Dec 16 05:31:45 <GAN800> Attitudes like that are how we got here in the first place.
Dec 16 05:31:51 <thefool> And I always see the shelters shut their doors while there are lines wrapping around the block
Dec 16 05:32:35 <shackan> GAN800: what scares me is that there's actually lots of people like pupnik who rooted for bush, TWICE
Dec 16 05:32:44 <thefool> All in all though, I do think he is one of the better choices, if not the best.
Dec 16 05:33:22 <thefool> shackan: since 2003 I have met about two dozen people that will actually admit to that.
Dec 16 05:33:39 <zerojay> pupnik: Voting for yet another old white guy that's disconnected from the public and giving him money, just like every other time before *is* sitting back and taking it.
Dec 16 05:33:41 <pupnik> shackan: I never supported Bush.  thanks
Dec 16 05:33:47 <GAN800> shackan, are you saying that Paul is another Bush?
Dec 16 05:34:02 <shackan> thefool: because the others are ashamed of their votes?
Dec 16 05:34:05 <GAN800> zerojay, how is Paul disconnected from the public?
Dec 16 05:34:17 <pupnik> he's stuck in left vs right politics.  There is another dimension, freedom vs authoritarianism.
Dec 16 05:34:18 <thefool> shackan: note I said 2003...as in before the election
Dec 16 05:34:29 <GAN800> "old white guy" sound incredibly racist to me.
Dec 16 05:34:36 <zerojay> GAN800: The same way every other guy in politics is.
Dec 16 05:34:39 <shackan> GAN800: to me it's all the same, I really don't know (living on the old continent and all that)
Dec 16 05:34:49 <thefool> GAN800: oh get over it. It's descriptive
Dec 16 05:34:54 <GAN800> zerojay, do you know anything about the guy?
Dec 16 05:34:59 <zerojay> GAN800: No, it's not racist, but it's pretty much what you get in presidential races.
Dec 16 05:35:28 <GAN800> zerojay, you seem to be suggesting that a minority is automatically a better presidential candidate. ;)
Dec 16 05:35:34 <shackan> pupnik: no, I didn't say YOU supported bush, I'm saying there were lots of people enthusiastic about him just like YOU are about ron
Dec 16 05:35:37 <zerojay> GAN800: It's nothing personal against Paul himself. It's the same for everyone in the race.
Dec 16 05:35:38 <thefool> are either of you registered republicans?
Dec 16 05:35:44 <pupnik> ok sorry shackan - no problems :)
Dec 16 05:35:48 <zerojay> GAN800: I'm not saying that either.
Dec 16 05:35:50 <GAN800> <-registered libertarian
Dec 16 05:36:01 <thefool> and what is Ron Paul running as?
Dec 16 05:36:01 * pupnik high fives GAN800 
Dec 16 05:36:06 <GAN800> shackan, so you're saying Paul is another Bush
Dec 16 05:36:22 <shackan> where did I ?
Dec 16 05:36:23 <pupnik> nah don't attack shackan
Dec 16 05:36:45 <zerojay> What I am saying is that it doesn't make sense to vote in another rich old guy and expect him to fight for the middle and lower class, regardless of their platform or who they are.
Dec 16 05:37:00 <zerojay> And that's never going to change.
Dec 16 05:37:04 <pupnik> http://techpresident.com/scrape_plot/meetup_supporter  <<< that is votes, shackman.  Votes for the primary.
Dec 16 05:37:07 <GAN800> zerojay, Paul has a track record to back up his politics.
Dec 16 05:37:33 <zerojay> GAN800: Heard it all before in each and every other previous election.
Dec 16 05:37:36 <GAN800> He's been in Congress for a while, and consistently voted with his stated beliefs the whole time.
Dec 16 05:38:00 <zerojay> These people aren't there for us.
Dec 16 05:38:07 <thefool> zerojay: In all probability you are right, but he has a better chance of making a change than anyone else I see running
Dec 16 05:38:17 <zerojay> thefool: That could be true.
Dec 16 05:38:22 <shackan> I want to re read this log a couple of years into his mandate :D
Dec 16 05:39:10 <zerojay> I have nothing against the man whatsoever, by the way. I'm a Canadian, so I really don't give a shit about who you have running the place so long as they don't decide to attack us.
Dec 16 05:39:22 <shackan> same here
Dec 16 05:39:38 <shackan> 'cept I'm in europe
Dec 16 05:40:19 <zerojay> From what I've seen, Paul seems more down to earth... but I don't think putting him in power is going to automatically change things for the better.
Dec 16 05:40:20 <thefool> zerojay: the US has a surprisingly remarkable ability to drag other countries into the wars we start
Dec 16 05:41:19 <thefool> what we really need is a Supreme Court with some balls
Dec 16 05:41:34 <shackan> but canada doesn't have an army in any case :D
Dec 16 05:41:41 <zerojay> thefool: It's because the US was held in such high regard, so people were willing to join the fight if it bought them brownie points, but it looks like that regard has been lost quite a while ago, unfortunately.
Dec 16 05:41:42 <thefool> um yea they do
Dec 16 05:41:43 <GAN800> We need a government that's set up and run as the constitution intended.
Dec 16 05:41:52 <pupnik> thefool: and an understanding of the original intent of the constitution :)
Dec 16 05:42:01 <thefool> zerojay: yet isn't canada still in Iraq?
Dec 16 05:42:12 <pupnik> "We have given you a republic... if you can keep it." - Benjamin Franklin
Dec 16 05:42:16 <zerojay> shackan: We have an army.. and the last time the US tried to invade Canada, they got their asses kicked.
Dec 16 05:42:23 <zerojay> thefool: Canada never went to Iraq.
Dec 16 05:42:27 <shackan> zerojay: I know :)
Dec 16 05:42:56 <thefool> pupnik: "I can not overly stress the danger of the word 'party'" -Benjamin Franklin
Dec 16 05:42:57 <zerojay> thefool: Canada was against the war in Iraq and never joined.
Dec 16 05:43:10 <thefool> hmm, my mistake good for you
Dec 16 05:43:28 <thefool> I was pretty sure I read something on BBC about canadian troops
Dec 16 05:43:42 <zerojay> thefool: Maybe Canadian peacekeepers.
Dec 16 05:43:52 <thefool> not in Iraq
Dec 16 05:43:54 <zerojay> Canada is in Afghanistan.
Dec 16 05:44:05 <thefool> why?
Dec 16 05:44:17 <thefool> trying to rebuild it?
Dec 16 05:44:25 <zerojay> Peacekeeping missions as far as I remember.
Dec 16 05:44:33 <zerojay> Whatever that means.
Dec 16 05:45:19 <thefool> Usually I admire peacekeeping missions. But it seems they backfire in the Middle-East as the Peacekeepers tend to do a lot of shooting
Dec 16 05:45:51 <zerojay> Well, when  you ignore them telling you that they don't want you there, they tend to get upset. :)
Dec 16 05:46:59 <thefool> Thats why peacekeepers are supposed to go into an area only at the behest of the goverments
Dec 16 05:47:47 <thefool> Anyways...
Dec 16 05:48:04 <thefool> What is Ron Paul running as? A republican or a libertarian?
Dec 16 05:48:10 <doc|home> republican...
Dec 16 05:48:23 <penguinbait> its bizare eh??
Dec 16 05:48:40 <thefool> he is a republican member of congress
Dec 16 05:48:48 <penguinbait> I watched the debates and wondered why ron paul was at the wrong one
Dec 16 05:48:50 <doc|home> not really, that's what a real conservative used to be
Dec 16 05:49:09 <doc|home> what you see in the republican party now is mostly neoconservatives
Dec 16 05:49:18 <doc|home> which is little different to democrats
Dec 16 05:49:20 <thefool> and he is a strict isolationist
Dec 16 05:49:24 <doc|home> no he's not
Dec 16 05:49:26 <thefool> which is simply stupid
Dec 16 05:49:30 <thefool> no?
Dec 16 05:49:32 <doc|home> he's an non-interventionist
Dec 16 05:49:41 <thefool> So called free trade deals and world governmental organizations like the International Criminal Court (ICC), NAFTA, GATT, WTO, and CAFTA are a threat to our independence as a nation. They transfer power from our government to unelected foreign elites.
Dec 16 05:49:42 <doc|home> yes, because being in Iraq was oh so smart
Dec 16 05:49:53 <doc|home> it's not at all isolating the US, nope, not in the slightest
Dec 16 05:50:11 <thefool>  This spawn of powerful special interests, would create a single nation out of Canada, the U.S. and Mexico, with a new unelected bureaucracy and money system. Forget about controlling immigration under this scheme.
Dec 16 05:50:26 <doc|home> thefool: vincente fox has already said on tv that that was the plan
Dec 16 05:50:40 <thefool> We must withdraw from any organizations and trade deals that infringe upon the freedom and independence of the United States of America.
Dec 16 05:50:40 <doc|home> and that chavez put a spanner in the works for that
Dec 16 05:51:11 <doc|home> are you even reading what I'm saying? :)
Dec 16 05:51:25 <thefool> now I am
Dec 16 05:51:28 <Vulc|Sleeps> [00:50:44] <thefool> We must withdraw from any organizations and trade deals that infringe upon the freedom and independence of the United States of America. -- the United States of America infringes upon the freedom and independance of The United States of America.
Dec 16 05:51:34 <pupnik> absolutely, that's government managed trade, thefool - and in particular a danger of international agencies and bodies managing trade and usurping national law
Dec 16 05:51:42 <pupnik> free trade != managed trade
Dec 16 05:52:06 <shackan> thefool: while you're at it, could you withdraw from the countries you've invaded too? thanks
Dec 16 05:52:19 <pupnik> that's the plan shackan !
Dec 16 05:52:44 <shackan> pupnik: including all the nato military bases on foreign soil
Dec 16 05:52:51 <thefool> pupnik: no that is not goverment managed trade
Dec 16 05:52:59 <pupnik> yep! :) Dr. Paul is the only candidate for you.
Dec 16 05:53:03 <doc|home> thefool: of course these foreign armies aren't costing any money at all (a trillion a year) and aren't devaluing the dollar at all (17% this year)
Dec 16 05:53:14 <thefool> pupnik: goverment managed trade is what we have right now, where a congress intitutes legal monopolies
Dec 16 05:53:30 <doc|home> thefool: which nafta cafta etc encourage
Dec 16 05:53:32 <pupnik> right, that's bad too thefool
Dec 16 05:53:46 <thefool> pupnik: no really?
Dec 16 05:53:47 <zerojay> I find it kind of funny how there's such an anti-immigration thing going on in the US.. as if 95% of the people there weren't immigrants themselves.
Dec 16 05:53:47 <Vulc|Sleeps> pupnik: Too bad Ronnie is insane...
Dec 16 05:53:51 <penguinbait> 7 years
Dec 16 05:53:52 <thefool> but the WTO is a good thing
Dec 16 05:53:54 <shackan> like the monopoly on health care..
Dec 16 05:54:04 <thefool> and the ICC is a great thing. It needs more support not less
Dec 16 05:54:25 <doc|home> Vulc|Bleh: it's sad when *he's* the insane one, when that's what the country has come to
Dec 16 05:54:38 <doc|home> because giuliani is better, or hillary. ugh
Dec 16 05:54:45 <Vulc|Bleh> He'd be fine, if not for all the religeous stuff.
Dec 16 05:54:46 <thefool> doc|home: in case you didn't know I totally agree that we have no buisiness invading soviergn countries
Dec 16 05:54:50 <Vulc|Bleh> ALL of the candidates are idiots
Dec 16 05:54:55 <shackan> oh, rudy's running as well?
Dec 16 05:55:02 <doc|home> Vulc|Bleh: erm, he's not that openly religious
Dec 16 05:55:12 <doc|home> he's personally religious, but that's about it
Dec 16 05:55:15 <pupnik> And Romney, our Berlusconi :)
Dec 16 05:55:26 <Vulc|Bleh> Doc: Yeah, but some of his views represent the one syou would associate about that.  But not as many as, say, the other republicans
Dec 16 05:55:46 <shackan> pupnik: oh wow, you have YOUR OWN berlusconi now?
Dec 16 05:56:04 <pupnik> shackan: yeah Romney just bought clearchannel communications, with 1000 radio stations
Dec 16 05:56:05 <shackan> pupnik: is he a mafioso as well?
Dec 16 05:56:06 <doc|home> Vulc|Bleh: can ou rephrase that please?
Dec 16 05:56:11 <doc|home> *you
Dec 16 05:56:15 <doc|home> I'm not parsing it :/
Dec 16 05:56:16 <Vulc|Bleh> Doc: I'm too tired to think, I may be getting a few confused.
Dec 16 05:56:31 <doc|home> Vulc|Bleh: I think you might be thinking about huckabee, who *is* insane
Dec 16 05:56:43 <thefool> I am pretty sure there are commandments against lying and murdering...I don't really associate religion with republicans
Dec 16 05:56:45 <Vulc|Bleh> No, ronnie is, too, just less-so than the other GOP candidates.
Dec 16 05:56:47 <doc|home> he is very openly religious
Dec 16 05:56:55 <Vulc|Bleh> insane, that is
Dec 16 05:57:07 <thefool> why is openly religious insane?
Dec 16 05:57:21 <Vulc|Bleh> I never said that was why he was insane.
Dec 16 05:57:32 <doc|home> Vulc|Bleh: find me another candidate who gets the economy and the foreign policy mess that the country is and then I'll believe you when you say that he's insane
Dec 16 05:57:37 <thefool> guess the timing threw me off
Dec 16 05:57:39 <Vulc|Bleh> Doc: He won't.
Dec 16 05:57:43 <doc|home> thefool: I didn't say that
Dec 16 05:57:52 <doc|home> Vulc|Bleh: he won't what?
Dec 16 05:58:00 <Vulc|Bleh> Fix everything he claims he will.
Dec 16 05:58:18 <Vulc|Bleh> Every presidential candidate claims they will fix things.  Do they? Maybe two out of five on the list.
Dec 16 05:58:31 <doc|home> Vulc|Bleh: check out his voting record, he will try his hardest, he'll have opposition in congress but he'll do his best within the system.
Dec 16 05:58:41 <thefool> Vulc|Bleh: who fixed two out of five? I would love to shake his hand.
Dec 16 05:58:55 <Vulc|Bleh> Fool: Don't know, though I'm pretty sure it was done.
Dec 16 05:59:14 <doc|home> thefool: I think huckabee is insane because he takes the bible literally, not even the catholic church does that.
Dec 16 05:59:15 <thefool> Vulc|Bleh: If a canidate actually fixes one thing in their four years I would be content
Dec 16 05:59:36 <Vulc|Bleh> Doc: I know he is _trying_ to fix things, but I don't think it will happen when he becomes pres.
Dec 16 05:59:40 <thefool> doc|home: as in the earth is only a few thousand years old?
Dec 16 05:59:43 <Vulc|Bleh> but that goes for every one of them
Dec 16 05:59:52 <Vulc|Bleh> You fools! The earth is only HUNDREDS of years old.
Dec 16 05:59:53 <doc|home> thefool: I don't know to be honest, I avoid reading the bible.
Dec 16 06:00:28 <doc|home> Vulc|Bleh: right, but I'd trust him to actually try his hardest, while I wouldn't even trust the rest to do that much
Dec 16 06:01:02 <Vulc|Bleh> Eh.  There are a few dems that might.  I can't vote this election, so we'll see how it happens.  But personally? I'd rather none of them ruled our country for four years.
Dec 16 06:01:25 <pupnik> "These are the times that try men's souls. The summer soldier and the sunshine patriot will, in this crisis, shrink from the service of their country; but he that stands it now, deserves the love and thanks of man and woman." -Thomas Paine
Dec 16 06:01:35 <shackan> it's a dirty job, someone has to do it
Dec 16 06:01:52 <doc|home> Vulc|Bleh: none of the dems will, besides, the race is Clinton VS Obama, they won't do anything intelligent. She wants to make it so everyone has equally shit healthcare, and he thinks bombing pakistan isn't an entirely stupid idea.
Dec 16 06:02:11 <thefool> As far as Dems go this year we only have a choice between Hillary and Obama, and both would continue to destroy this country
Dec 16 06:02:25 <Vulc|Bleh> Hillary, from what I remember, is against net neutrality, which is bad
Dec 16 06:02:37 <doc|home> thefool: do some in-depth research into Paul's ideas and you'll see they're actually cool
Dec 16 06:02:38 <shackan> doc|home: what's wrong with free health care? it works in canada
Dec 16 06:02:46 <doc|home> shackan: I live in Canada, it doesn't
Dec 16 06:02:56 <Vulc|Bleh> Doc: I have, and, again, hes probably one of the lesser evils
Dec 16 06:02:57 <shackan> mmmmm
Dec 16 06:03:00 <thefool> I agree with everything except his views on the ICC and WTO
Dec 16 06:03:05 <Vulc|Bleh> but none of them are good.
Dec 16 06:03:13 <thefool> I think the ICC is the best thing since sliced bread
Dec 16 06:03:16 <Vulc|Bleh> we need the _old_ republicans back
Dec 16 06:03:17 * shackan notes to self: don't take advice from movies
Dec 16 06:03:18 <Vulc|Bleh> pre-1950
Dec 16 06:03:19 <doc|home> thefool: will the ICC do anything about the mess that Bush has made?
Dec 16 06:03:24 <thefool> I am trying to get an internship in prague...
Dec 16 06:03:29 <shackan> doc|home: so, how it doesn't?
Dec 16 06:03:35 <thefool> They would if they had enough support
Dec 16 06:03:51 <thefool> doc|home: but the ICC is not about dealing with whole nations
Dec 16 06:03:52 <doc|home> shackan: people here are constantly complaining about it.
Dec 16 06:04:01 <doc|home> thefool: Bush is one person
Dec 16 06:04:06 <thefool> doc|home: they want to have Bush arrested
Dec 16 06:04:09 <pupnik> "We have a president who claims the ability to kidnap anyone on earth and torture them.  This is dictatorial power that exceeds that of any ruler in the history of the world."
Dec 16 06:04:11 <doc|home> thefool: right, but?
Dec 16 06:04:26 <shackan> doc|home: they'd rather pay for everything out of their pocket?
Dec 16 06:04:36 <thefool> doc|home: well so far only Switzerland has agreed to hand him over to the ICC
Dec 16 06:04:46 <thefool> lol
Dec 16 06:04:48 <doc|home> thefool: the ICC is useful when the people they don't like does something bad. When they people they do like does something bad nothing will happen.
Dec 16 06:04:51 <shackan> doc|home: if you want to, there's always private clinics, at least we have them here
Dec 16 06:05:00 * Vulc|Bleh kidnaps pupnik
Dec 16 06:05:00 <doc|home> shackan: not legal here
Dec 16 06:05:10 <shackan> doc|home: hahaha, really?
Dec 16 06:05:28 <shackan> but that's... COMMUNISM!
Dec 16 06:05:36 <doc|home> shackan: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_health_care#Canada
Dec 16 06:05:56 <thefool> a single payer system makes a crap load of sense
Dec 16 06:06:06 <doc|home> thefool: single payer system?
Dec 16 06:06:08 <shackan> very interesting
Dec 16 06:06:11 <thefool> Canada's is not perfect but...
Dec 16 06:06:31 <thefool> Basically the goverment is your insurance  company and they don't make a profit
Dec 16 06:06:42 <thefool> Its what Canada has
Dec 16 06:06:44 <doc|home> thefool: so if I can actually afford to pay the best doctors for treatment but my local doctor sucks, I should be forced to go to my local doctor?
Dec 16 06:06:53 <thefool> heck no
Dec 16 06:07:16 <thefool> If you feel like going elsewhere do it, but it wont necessarily be covered
Dec 16 06:07:27 <thefool> just like with insurrance
Dec 16 06:07:37 <doc|home> thefool: except governments suck at lots of things. They don't generally even work towards the best deals. I worked for a company doing contracting to the government, the government paid more than most other clients.
Dec 16 06:07:43 <thefool> And a decent system should not care if the doctor is local
Dec 16 06:07:50 <doc|home> thefool: except that's not legal, you can't go elsewhere
Dec 16 06:07:59 <shackan> doc|home: that's nonsense
Dec 16 06:08:01 <thefool> doc|home: of course you can
Dec 16 06:08:06 <doc|home> "Canada is the only industrialized country that has banned private medical insurance for services covered by the public health plan."
Dec 16 06:08:14 <shackan> that's INSURANCE
Dec 16 06:08:29 <shackan> if you pay out of your pocket it's another business
Dec 16 06:08:36 <zerojay> doc|home: None of the stuff you said is a problem here.
Dec 16 06:09:02 <doc|home> zerojay: I've heard of water drips costing $15
Dec 16 06:09:03 <shackan> I guess doctors can exercise privately in canda, I hope so
Dec 16 06:09:19 <zerojay> You aren't forced to go to any doctor.. you choose.
Dec 16 06:09:22 <doc|home> water drips aren't the real term, I forget the name they were given
Dec 16 06:09:24 <celesteh> i lived in France for a while.  Can we copy their system?  It was great
Dec 16 06:09:35 <thefool> doc|home: The goverment will waste tons of money, they will be horridly inefficent. But in the end it will still be more cost effective then paying an insurance company because of the insurance company's huge profit margins
Dec 16 06:09:40 <doc|home> zerojay: you aren't forced to go to a specific doctor
Dec 16 06:10:02 <zerojay> doc|home: Hell no. You just go to whatever doctor you want and give them your medicare card.
Dec 16 06:10:23 <doc|home> right
Dec 16 06:10:37 <shackan> so what's the problem?
Dec 16 06:10:41 <pupnik> I haven't felt this excited since christmas when I was 4 years old.
Dec 16 06:11:04 <zerojay> It is right. That's what we've always done. Never had to think about what doctors to go to, what was or wasn't covered, none of that crap.
Dec 16 06:11:05 <thefool> This is a great polotics channel...
Dec 16 06:11:20 <zerojay> That's why it was shocking to me how crazy the US system is.
Dec 16 06:11:30 <Vulc|Bleh> Yeah, its what happens when canola gets pushed back, thefool.
Dec 16 06:11:55 <thefool> zerojay: lets put it this way, my family's health insurance (HMO) is more than our mortgage
Dec 16 06:12:09 <thefool> thats just insane
Dec 16 06:12:10 <pupnik> 12 MILLION! Woohooooooo! :)
Dec 16 06:12:12 <doc|home> zerojay: so how do they apportion doctors? I mean, if everyone wants one doctor who's an expert, what happens?
Dec 16 06:12:22 <zerojay> thefool: Not a surprise. I lived in the US for five years. I know how it is.
Dec 16 06:12:25 <doc|home> pupnik: no one here knows what you're talking about :)
Dec 16 06:12:37 <pupnik> i'm used to that
Dec 16 06:12:44 <thefool> doc|home: yea we do...because he does not shut up about it lol
Dec 16 06:12:49 <doc|home> hah
Dec 16 06:12:59 <thefool> Ron Paul is raking in money
Dec 16 06:13:05 <zerojay> doc|home: The doctor will take everyone that he can. The others can wait or go elsewhere.
Dec 16 06:13:12 <celesteh> he wants to withdraw from the UN?
Dec 16 06:13:14 <celesteh> this guy is a loon
Dec 16 06:13:24 <thefool> my sentiments exactly
Dec 16 06:13:27 <doc|home> zerojay: no political interference at all? i.e. his bosses telling him who he must see?
Dec 16 06:13:30 <shackan> thefool: ... and pupnik is happy for that, does that make any sense?
Dec 16 06:13:38 <zerojay> doc|home: No. Why would there be?
Dec 16 06:13:58 <celesteh> oh, and he's against women being able to control their own bodies
Dec 16 06:14:00 <celesteh> how exciting
Dec 16 06:14:03 <zerojay> doc|home: And who is a doctor's boss anyways? That makes zero sense.
Dec 16 06:14:13 <thefool> celesteh: oh don't start on that one
Dec 16 06:14:18 <doc|home> celesteh: no, he's not, he's against the federal government having a say one way or the other.
Dec 16 06:14:42 <celesteh> right, cuz "states rights" doesn't mean 90% of women get no say in such things
Dec 16 06:15:24 <doc|home> celesteh: some states want it, some don't. You can figure that out within your own state, but why should you be forced to not have abortion if enough people in iowa say you shouldn't
Dec 16 06:15:32 <celesteh> why should the bill of rights get to trump "states rights" in telling disempowered people what thyey can and can't do
Dec 16 06:16:01 <thefool> why should I be forced to not murder my son because enough people in florida think its wrong?
Dec 16 06:16:05 <celesteh> what about the women in iowa?  no rights for them
Dec 16 06:16:12 <doc|home> what do the bill of rights say about abortion?
Dec 16 06:16:18 <zerojay> My body's nobody's body but mine. You have your body so let me have mine.
Dec 16 06:16:21 <thefool> absolutely nothing!
Dec 16 06:16:35 <doc|home> celesteh: again, that's up to them to fight. he can only work at what the federal government regulates.
Dec 16 06:17:08 <thefool> great have your body, but that body inside you...it's not your body it's the body of a parasite called your child. Leave that one alone
Dec 16 06:17:10 <celesteh> like Jim Crow was up to them?  States rights has a long history of screwing people
Dec 16 06:17:11 <doc|home> zerojay: that's the libertarian way of thinking, but he can only do what the president is allowed to do.
Dec 16 06:17:12 <pupnik> it's all defined by when you consider the unborn child to gain the rights of an individual.  This is an issue where there is no clear cut answer, and no mandate in the constitution for the federal govt to rule on.
Dec 16 06:17:35 <penguinbait> wow its getting pretty wild in here
Dec 16 06:17:41 <zerojay> doc|home: Huh? What? I think I missed something there.
Dec 16 06:17:51 <celesteh> individuals do not have the right to comandeer the internal organs of other individuals
Dec 16 06:18:06 <doc|home> <zerojay> My body's nobody's body but mine. You have your body so let me have mine. <- That is a libertarian belief
Dec 16 06:18:15 <celesteh> you cannot be forced to give your liver to somebody who needs it
Dec 16 06:18:27 <zerojay> doc|home: It's a song taught to kids to teach them that other people shouldn't be touching them in naughty areas.
Dec 16 06:18:28 <doc|home> zerojay: but at the same time, he's not supposed to regulate within states, only at the federal level
Dec 16 06:18:34 <thefool> where is that one coming from?
Dec 16 06:18:41 <doc|home> zerojay: heh, I hadn't heard that one
Dec 16 06:19:01 <celesteh> but somehow a fetus has the right to exist within a PERSON WHO DOES NOT WISH IT TO BE THERE
Dec 16 06:19:07 <celesteh> capslock sorry
Dec 16 06:19:53 <penguinbait> that person made a choice
Dec 16 06:20:05 <doc|home> celesteh: that's another reason why abortion is such a contentious issue, and not something you can really make a law for that you can make people happy about. States rights means it can be regulated at the state level so each state can decide for itself.
Dec 16 06:20:07 <celesteh> slut shaming
Dec 16 06:20:11 <thefool> celesteh: because some think that a fetus is a person
Dec 16 06:20:25 <doc|home> penguinbait: what if the condom broke?
Dec 16 06:20:34 <penguinbait> I am pro-choice but against abortion
Dec 16 06:20:40 <pupnik> Altitude: $413,800, Current velocity: $357,000/hr
Dec 16 06:20:41 <celesteh> "End birthright citizenship."
Dec 16 06:20:47 <celesteh> oh man, this guy is a xenophobic loon
Dec 16 06:20:49 <thefool> doc|home: who cares, if she does not want it adoptions is better than death
Dec 16 06:20:51 <penguinbait> doc its still your choice, risks and all
Dec 16 06:21:04 <celesteh> let's ammend the consitutions to take away rights
Dec 16 06:21:13 <zerojay> ...
Dec 16 06:21:20 <doc|home> celesteh: not at all, he just knows that people are coming to the US, having a baby soon after, then using that to stay. We see the same thing in Ireland.
Dec 16 06:21:21 <zerojay> Hey, how about that Maemo Mapper, huh?
Dec 16 06:21:47 <thefool> I think I am mozing to New Zealand
Dec 16 06:21:55 <celesteh> yes, women 9 months pregnant, swimming across the rio grande.  that's totally plausible
Dec 16 06:21:55 <doc|home> celesteh: he's all for immigration, just legal and when the economy can support it.
Dec 16 06:21:59 <thefool> s/mozing/moving
Dec 16 06:22:01 <penguinbait> mozing
Dec 16 06:22:03 <penguinbait> ah
Dec 16 06:22:10 <penguinbait> where are you now
Dec 16 06:22:16 <doc|home> celesteh: do some more research into his explanations for these opinions
Dec 16 06:22:21 <thefool> south florida
Dec 16 06:22:22 <doc|home> they're all on youtube.
Dec 16 06:22:29 <penguinbait> why NZ
Dec 16 06:22:36 <celesteh> i've been in immigrant.  anybody who wants to make immigrant lives harder sucks
Dec 16 06:22:47 <thefool> have you heard about all their political issues?
Dec 16 06:22:54 <penguinbait> not quite as was as Florida,but its real nice
Dec 16 06:22:55 <zerojay> I think this is the first time in my memory that we've had a woman actively participating in #maemo. Cool. :)
Dec 16 06:23:06 <penguinbait> s/was/warm
Dec 16 06:23:20 <pupnik> http://ronpaulgraphs.com/dec_16_vs_nov_5_total.html  Tea Party 07 vs ThisNovember5th
Dec 16 06:23:21 <doc|home> celesteh: a legal one or illegal?
Dec 16 06:23:22 <celesteh> oh, and he's against the international criminal court
Dec 16 06:23:31 <celesteh> i've been both
Dec 16 06:23:34 <thefool> neither have I, and thats why I want to move there.
Dec 16 06:23:42 <doc|home> celesteh: as I've said, because it sucks. Will anything ever happen to Bush with the ICC?
Dec 16 06:23:45 <shackan> thefool: where?
Dec 16 06:23:53 <thefool> shackan: NZ
Dec 16 06:24:08 <doc|home> celesteh: right, so if you can do it through the legal methods, why can't everyone? He wants to reform those too.
Dec 16 06:24:12 <celesteh> the icc is established by treaty.  the us is specifically exempted from it
Dec 16 06:24:14 <shackan> thefool: oh, and I wanted to move to australia myself :)
Dec 16 06:24:25 <doc|home> celesteh: convenient that
Dec 16 06:24:35 <celesteh> i've been both legal and illegal.  the paperwork is confusing and complicated in some countries
Dec 16 06:24:48 <doc|home> celesteh: I'm Irish and in Canada, I'm well aware of that :)
Dec 16 06:24:52 <thefool> celesteh: in the US the paperwork is just plain insane
Dec 16 06:24:53 <doc|home> so many forms :(
Dec 16 06:24:58 <zerojay> doc|home: The US immigration department basically stole $10000 from my wife and I.
Dec 16 06:25:03 <celesteh> the only reason to pull the us out of the icc, which this dude wants, is to undermine international law in general
Dec 16 06:25:18 <celesteh> milosovich should not be prosecuted according to ron paul
Dec 16 06:25:25 <doc|home> zerojay: yeah, and coming to Canada's not much cheaper.
Dec 16 06:25:37 <thefool> I had a friend born on a french island to two Americans. Took him till after his 19th birthday to get his citizenship straightened out
Dec 16 06:25:40 <zerojay> We had to file and refile and refile because "the paperwork's been lost".. and even though they had a record of us paying all the fees, they made us repay over and over again.
Dec 16 06:25:51 <zerojay> doc|home: Wrong. *MUCH CHEAPER*.
Dec 16 06:26:02 <doc|home> zerojay: do you think that makes a case for entering the country illegally?
Dec 16 06:26:03 <thefool> celesteh: I agree, the US needs to submit itself fully to the ICC
Dec 16 06:26:26 <doc|home> zerojay: er, no, immigration lawyer want 8.5k off me. 1100 or so just in application fees to the government,
Dec 16 06:26:28 <zerojay> My wife's just finishing her immigration to Canada. I think the final cost of everything is about $1000.
Dec 16 06:26:29 <thefool> celesteh: people like Bush should be tried alongside people like Milosovich
Dec 16 06:26:41 <doc|home> zerojay: you're doing it yourself, right?
Dec 16 06:26:43 <zerojay> doc|home: I'm talking just application fees.
Dec 16 06:26:49 <zerojay> doc|home: Yep.
Dec 16 06:26:51 <penguinbait> i agree
Dec 16 06:27:04 <doc|home> zerojay: you have to admit though that your case in the US should be outside the norm.
Dec 16 06:27:07 <timeless> anyone here know mplawner?
Dec 16 06:27:08 <zerojay> US basically made us pay four times more than we should have had to pay.
Dec 16 06:27:11 <celesteh> "It is the federal government that most divides us by race, class, religion, and gender. Through its taxes, restrictive regulations, corporate subsidies, racial set-asides, and welfare programs, government plays far too large a role in determining who succeeds and who fails."
Dec 16 06:27:13 <celesteh> hahahahaha
Dec 16 06:27:27 <doc|home> celesteh: look into his explanations of that
Dec 16 06:27:33 <celesteh> yes.  white men in the US are doing SO BADLY because the feds dscriminate against them constantly
Dec 16 06:27:35 <zerojay> doc|home: Doesn't matter, because to me, it is the norm... so after all that, we said fuck it, lets go to Canada instead.
Dec 16 06:27:45 <thefool> that was hogwash, his real view isn't quite as bad
Dec 16 06:27:52 <doc|home> celesteh: you know hedge funds make about 2200 times what most people make, yet they, by their own admission, pay less taxes than a cleaner.
Dec 16 06:28:14 <doc|home> zerojay: what happens to you does not make that the norm :)
Dec 16 06:28:22 <doc|home> zerojay: a sample of one is not a good sampling rate :)
Dec 16 06:28:23 <pupnik> Of course the govt does promote collectivism, and through tax-and-spend it promotes certain groups over others.  This is not one of the enumerated powers of the constitution
Dec 16 06:28:23 <celesteh> "racial set-asides" -> white guys are being discriminated against.  boo-hoo
Dec 16 06:28:24 <zerojay> When legal immigration is next to impossible for a separated family to get, there's something wrong.
Dec 16 06:28:29 <penguinbait> MONKEY!!, HERE MONKEY MONKEY, Where the hell did that monkey go?
Dec 16 06:28:33 <zerojay> doc|home: No, but it makes it the norm to *me*.
Dec 16 06:28:44 <zerojay> doc|home: Because I was always treated the same way.
Dec 16 06:28:48 <doc|home> zerojay: yes, but that makes no _legal_ justification for doing it outside the system.
Dec 16 06:29:02 <doc|home> zerojay: again, a sample of one is not right
Dec 16 06:29:19 <zerojay> doc|home: I'm not saying a sample of one means it's the norm for the US.
Dec 16 06:29:20 <celesteh> immigration to the UK is f-ing impossible.
Dec 16 06:29:24 <doc|home> those same people are the people you think should look after health care?
Dec 16 06:29:24 <celesteh> the US is so much worse
Dec 16 06:29:27 <thefool> doc|home: it might not be legally justified, but one is often left with no vialbe alternative
Dec 16 06:29:47 <doc|home> thefool: so you think anyone who wants to enter the country should be allowed?
Dec 16 06:29:56 <zerojay> doc|home: What I am saying is that I don't know or care about every other case. I only care about my own.,.. and in my case, I was always given the runaround and forced to pay more, so for me, them trying to fuck us over IS the norm.
Dec 16 06:30:01 <celesteh> doc|home: why the heck not?
Dec 16 06:30:07 <pupnik> You can't advocate unconstitutional laws based on exceptionalism without ratcheting up the leviathan state.
Dec 16 06:30:18 <penguinbait> zj, has marijuana been decriminalized everywhere in Canada or only certain places?
Dec 16 06:30:21 <doc|home> celesteh: no security checks?
Dec 16 06:30:21 <timeless> penguinbait: monkey was killed by popular request
Dec 16 06:30:27 <zerojay> penguinbait: No idea.
Dec 16 06:30:36 <penguinbait> I tried to bring him back
Dec 16 06:30:43 <pupnik> the popular request was for monkey to be changed to reply only when spoken to, timeless
Dec 16 06:30:43 <zerojay> doc|home: Why not. Everyone that got to the US before didn't have to submit to that.
Dec 16 06:30:45 <celesteh> the way the Dutch do immigration is that people from certain countries just arrive and then apply for paperowrk
Dec 16 06:30:45 <thefool> doc|home: I think that I have not met an imigrant that was not a boon to the US
Dec 16 06:30:48 <doc|home> zerojay: then you seem to have pretty narrow vision on these things :(
Dec 16 06:31:14 <doc|home> zerojay: ok then, I think there should be security checks. Even the Canadian government agrees.
Dec 16 06:31:15 <celesteh> why can't we have the Dutch system?  Just show up and if you can stay and participate, that's great
Dec 16 06:31:15 <zerojay> doc|home: Well, I can only speak from experience. If my experience was completely shitty... well, I'm sorry, but that's the way I was treated.
Dec 16 06:31:19 <timeless> penguinbait: *shrug* i'm pretty sure _monkey got killed while i was on a vacation
Dec 16 06:31:23 <thefool> doc|home: yet I have met a lot of lazy bums whos parents or great great grandparents were imigrants and are legal citizens who just collect welfare
Dec 16 06:31:51 <doc|home> zerojay: celesteh do you think taxes should go to social welfare for immigrants?
Dec 16 06:32:02 <doc|home> if they can't get jobs
Dec 16 06:32:10 <celesteh> immigrants pay more in taxes than they user services, so yes
Dec 16 06:32:16 <zerojay> doc|home: I live in a place where we take care of the needy and the sick.. so yes.
Dec 16 06:32:17 <penguinbait> http://www.internettablettalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=12594&highlight=monkey
Dec 16 06:32:22 <doc|home> celesteh: illegal ones don't
Dec 16 06:32:35 <celesteh> yes they do.  they pay sales taxes and often payroll witholdings
Dec 16 06:32:51 <celesteh> also, california agriculture would not exist without undocumented workers
Dec 16 06:33:04 <doc|home> zerojay: it's not about sick and needy, it's about people who don't/can't/won't work
Dec 16 06:33:06 <celesteh> they do pay taxes and they make farming here possible
Dec 16 06:33:22 <thefool> I don't think taxes should go to social welfare for people that can get jobs and don't only those that "can't" and those that pay taxes should reap the benefit of taxes. Instead of trying to get rid of our imigrants we should tax the "illegal" ones like everyone else
Dec 16 06:33:32 <celesteh> why shouldn't they get to go to a doctor when they're sick and send their kids to school just because their paperwork isn't in order?
Dec 16 06:33:42 <zerojay> doc|home: Doesn't matter. People are people, regardless of artificial lines we've drawn around the planet.
Dec 16 06:33:55 <penguinbait> I was just poking around #politics and its pretty quiet??
Dec 16 06:33:55 <thefool> BINGO
Dec 16 06:34:12 * timeless chuckles
Dec 16 06:34:15 <thefool> penguinbait: have a maemo related topic you want to shift things to?
Dec 16 06:34:34 <timeless> penguinbait: afaict infobot is in requiremode
Dec 16 06:34:36 <thefool> I blame this whole debate on canola...and pupnik
Dec 16 06:34:37 <celesteh> maemo political mapper helps you navigate through the primary candidates
Dec 16 06:34:40 <timeless> infobot i am timeless
Dec 16 06:34:41 <infobot> it is my pleasure to meet you, timeless
Dec 16 06:34:44 <timeless> infobot who am i?
Dec 16 06:34:45 <infobot> timeless shut up, you are a nobody
Dec 16 06:34:52 <zerojay> pwnd.
Dec 16 06:34:55 <thefool> lol
Dec 16 06:34:55 <timeless> ok, how rude
Dec 16 06:35:10 <thefool> infobot I am TheFool
Dec 16 06:35:11 <infobot> it is my pleasure to meet you, TheFool
Dec 16 06:35:32 <thefool> infobot who am I?
Dec 16 06:35:32 <doc|home> zerojay: I think those lines are important, otherwise you're also in with those people who invaded Iraq :/ (new lines will be drawn, people are always grouped, you'd be a "north american")
Dec 16 06:35:33 <infobot> thefool shut up, you are a nobody
Dec 16 06:35:43 <thefool> was wondering if it was random or constant
Dec 16 06:36:00 <timeless> thanks :)
Dec 16 06:36:10 <celesteh> when is OS2008 supposed to be out?
Dec 16 06:36:32 <thefool> 2xth I think
Dec 16 06:36:32 <timeless> when it's ready?
Dec 16 06:36:42 <zerojay> doc|home: When it comes to dealing with people on a daily basis, I don't think anyone's going to confuse me with a guy armed with an AK47 and taking over other countries, but thanks for playing. :)
Dec 16 06:36:43 <thefool> yea
Dec 16 06:36:50 <celesteh> my n800 won't sign on to my airport network correctly.  it only gets a link local IP.  I'm hoping it's fixed in 2008
Dec 16 06:37:02 <pupnik> OS2008 will be a pile of tissue one second, then a full fledged OS when it is released.  It's magic!
Dec 16 06:37:04 <timeless> celesteh: did you file a bug?
Dec 16 06:37:06 <Vulc|Bleh> you could try installing 08 now...
Dec 16 06:37:17 <Vulc|Bleh> pup: Do we have a release date yet?
Dec 16 06:37:39 <celesteh> no, i didn't file a bug.  i'm wondering if it's because i bought the tablet in the Netherlands and it's something funny about american vs EU radio?
Dec 16 06:37:43 <zerojay> celesteh: I've been told that a lot of Apple's products don't do proper DHCP so...
Dec 16 06:37:55 <doc|home> zerojay: right, just like those not armed with ak47s don't get called "sand monkeys". That never happens. People never just group a large number of people and tar them all with the one brush.
Dec 16 06:38:09 <thefool> so just use a normal router...the airport is overpriced hogwash anyway
Dec 16 06:38:22 <zerojay> doc|home: Hard to paint me with the same brush when I'm not over there doing it.
Dec 16 06:39:06 <Vulc|Bleh> [01:37:43] <celesteh> no, i didn't file a bug.  i'm wondering if it's because i bought the tablet in the Netherlands and it's something funny about american vs EU radio? -- it may be that
Dec 16 06:39:07 <zerojay> And if helping people around me means that I would be painted with that same brush, then I'd happy welcome it.
Dec 16 06:39:20 <celesteh> it's even more overpriced if i have to replace it with a new one when the rest of the network is doing fine
Dec 16 06:39:24 <zerojay> celesteh: EU goes from 1-13.. US goes from 1-11.
Dec 16 06:39:25 <doc|home> zerojay: sure, and it's hard to paint the "brown people" with being "islamofascists" yet that's what's happening. People don't care about the middle east because they're all getting grouped in as one when that's not even close to the case no more than all americans voted for Bush.
Dec 16 06:39:26 <thefool> doc|home: i believe "towel-heads" is the PC term in the US
Dec 16 06:39:38 <thefool> celesteh: good point...
Dec 16 06:39:40 <zerojay> doc|home: That's what's happening in the US. :)
Dec 16 06:39:44 <doc|home> thefool: same thing :)
Dec 16 06:39:46 <doc|home> zerojay: exactly
Dec 16 06:39:53 <zerojay> doc|home: Not happening here.
Dec 16 06:40:01 <doc|home> zerojay: because there are those lines
Dec 16 06:40:10 <zerojay> Wrong.
Dec 16 06:40:31 <doc|home> really? what denotes one country if not those lines?
Dec 16 06:40:33 <thefool> I totally decked a guy about a month ago for talking about how he thinks we should "nuke all those towel-heads"
Dec 16 06:40:46 <doc|home> thefool: good move :)
Dec 16 06:40:58 <celesteh> wow.  if anybody deserved a decking
Dec 16 06:41:02 <doc|home> although I'd have probably not done quite that :)
Dec 16 06:41:08 <thefool> have you looked at the EU thats a lot of countries that have largely forogtten about those lines
Dec 16 06:41:12 <shacka1> It's diaper-heads
Dec 16 06:41:23 <doc|home> thefool: exactly, and the same is going to happen to the US
Dec 16 06:41:30 <doc|home> and canada and mexico
Dec 16 06:41:32 <thefool> and I don't see that as a problem
Dec 16 06:41:34 <zerojay> doc|home: You're going really way off on a tangent here to try to get away from my point that the people up here care for one and all and if it means higher taxes and other problems, so be it.
Dec 16 06:41:39 <thefool> I see that as a good thing
Dec 16 06:41:54 <doc|home> it's terrible even economically because different regions have different economic set ups
Dec 16 06:42:01 <celesteh> i'd rather pay higher taxes and know that i wasn't going to be totally screwed if i got cancer
Dec 16 06:42:15 <doc|home> e.g. Ireland is going to suffer because interest rates in the EU are set to what suits germany and france
Dec 16 06:42:18 <thefool> and yet they are all doing fine
Dec 16 06:42:21 <doc|home> spain will suffer too
Dec 16 06:42:23 <thefool> just like Canada is
Dec 16 06:42:42 <doc|home> thefool: give it time, the EU has increased the number of euro in circulation by 12.3% in the last year
Dec 16 06:42:46 <zerojay> Yep. We have a government surplus... not a huge backbreaking debt.
Dec 16 06:42:53 <shacka1> Italy is not :(
Dec 16 06:43:02 <thefool> they have a pretty open immigration policy, they take care of their immigrants, they provide universal healthcare...and yet they are doing fine
Dec 16 06:43:06 <doc|home> thefool: canada will do better because it has resources, but the US hurting will hurt canada too as exports drop
Dec 16 06:43:16 <celesteh> One more quote from the ron Paul website: "Today, the Social Security system is broke and broken."  bzzzt.  thanks for playing.  better luck next time
Dec 16 06:43:22 <zerojay> doc|home: In the short term, yes.
Dec 16 06:43:40 <celesteh> if by "broke" you mean funded for the next 30 years AT LEAST
Dec 16 06:43:44 <doc|home> unless you have the NAU which will mean Canada will will have no control over its resources and will also get the US's debt
Dec 16 06:43:45 <thefool> celesteh: wait, are you seriously suggesting that it is not broken?
Dec 16 06:43:55 <celesteh> i'm suggesting that it's not broke
Dec 16 06:43:57 <doc|home> celesteh: funded, but the money has been spent already
Dec 16 06:44:01 <thefool> celesteh: really? where is that money?
Dec 16 06:44:16 <zerojay> doc|home: I don't see that ever happening because everyone up here would make sure it wouldn't.
Dec 16 06:44:21 <doc|home> celesteh: he wants people to be able to opt out of that, and go private if they want
Dec 16 06:44:22 <thefool> celesteh: then with all due respect, you my friend are an idiot
Dec 16 06:44:31 <celesteh> did i miss the headline where retirees didn't get their checks?
Dec 16 06:44:38 <doc|home> zerojay: I hope so, but if harper gets a majority he may not listen
Dec 16 06:45:05 <celesteh> it's a bunch of treasury bonds
Dec 16 06:45:13 <celesteh> that's in the fund
Dec 16 06:45:16 <doc|home> celesteh: they're getting them now, but will they in the future
Dec 16 06:45:24 <doc|home> ?
Dec 16 06:45:25 <zerojay> doc|home: He'd have to. There would be too much of a public outcry. We don't want to lose what's great about our country because the US screwed up theirs.
Dec 16 06:45:29 <thefool> no but you missed the 100 of them about my kids generation not getting their checks when they retire...and about the whole america is in the most dept it has ever been in thing...
Dec 16 06:45:37 <doc|home> zerojay: exactly, that's why lines are important
Dec 16 06:46:20 <celesteh> the projections where the system goes "broke" all place it at 30 years in the future or sometimes 50 and assume that there will be zero economic growth
Dec 16 06:46:22 <doc|home> the US debt is now at 9 trillion, that'll have to be paid
Dec 16 06:46:40 <doc|home> celesteh: I think it has started already
Dec 16 06:46:56 <doc|home> celesteh: you have a recession (negative growth) and a quickly declining dollar
Dec 16 06:47:06 <celesteh> yes, debt is out of control, but seriously, if the us starts defaulting on treasury bonds, a private system won't save you
Dec 16 06:47:07 <thefool> STARTED? when someone is in dept they are not starting to be "broke" they are past that point
Dec 16 06:47:21 <thefool> it is not so different with countries
Dec 16 06:47:38 <doc|home> celesteh: not now they won't
Dec 16 06:47:42 <celesteh> really?  so if somebody is paying off a morgage, they're broke?
Dec 16 06:48:05 <doc|home> celesteh: if you have -300,000 are you not broke?
Dec 16 06:48:43 <celesteh> well, when i first purchased a home, i had -300 000, but would not have described myself as broke, since i was paying all my bills on time
Dec 16 06:48:48 <thefool> that analogy is flawed as the US has made no investment, they are just spending the money
Dec 16 06:49:00 <zerojay> And spending the money and spending the money.
Dec 16 06:49:25 <celesteh> if the problem is that we're spenind too much money and this is going to hurt retirees, maybe we could do something like, i dunno, stop invading other countries?
Dec 16 06:49:45 <thefool> I would not call buying a house in dept as you now have something of worth. The US is simply buying a bunch of beer kegs...
Dec 16 06:49:50 <celesteh> quit building insanely expensive weapons for the cold war?
Dec 16 06:49:54 <doc|home> celesteh: sure, find another politician who'll do that?
Dec 16 06:50:00 <celesteh> kucinich
Dec 16 06:50:02 <thefool> and sloppily pouring them on the ground
Dec 16 06:50:14 <shacka1> Kuciwho?
Dec 16 06:50:21 <celesteh> dennis kucinich
Dec 16 06:50:38 <zerojay> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_current_account_balance <-- Kinda says it all.
Dec 16 06:50:38 <doc|home> celesteh: he has zero chance against obama and hillary. Ron Paul has a lot of support, even if polls don't show it. Look at how much money he's pulling in. He's going to really surprise people in the primaries.
Dec 16 06:50:44 <celesteh> actually, he said he wanted ron paul for a running mate.  which is rather unfortunate
Dec 16 06:51:10 <Fang64> wow you guys pick topics that start arguments often?
Dec 16 06:51:13 <doc|home> celesteh: I've heard he'd also be Ron Paul's running mate
Dec 16 06:51:21 <doc|home> Fang64: debate != argument :)
Dec 16 06:51:34 <celesteh> alas, why does everybody cool turn into ralph nader
Dec 16 06:51:34 <Fang64> ah I stepped in the wrong time
Dec 16 06:51:36 <Fang64> lol
Dec 16 06:51:45 <doc|home> celesteh: hmmm?
Dec 16 06:52:05 <celesteh> these guys all seem to actually have good ideas and then they go shred their credibility
Dec 16 06:52:10 <shacka1> Fang64: and it's more interesting than canola
Dec 16 06:52:29 <celesteh> kucinich says he wants to promite peace internationally, but he wants to run with the guy who wants to kill all international institutions?
Dec 16 06:52:35 <Fang64> lol agreed
Dec 16 06:52:58 <doc|home> celesteh: check his credibility, you may not always agree with everything he says but he's very consistent, and he gets that the economy is fucked without change (which will hurt but a lot less than without change) and that the foreign policy is utterly stupid.
Dec 16 06:53:29 <shacka1> celesteh: it's callaed, 'politics', or 'fool the electors'
Dec 16 06:53:33 <doc|home> celesteh: why should the US get to tell another country how it should act?
Dec 16 06:53:55 <thefool> goodnight all
Dec 16 06:54:35 <doc|home> what did the UN do to stop the US invading Iraq? nothing, What would it do to stop the US invading Iran? Nothing, or any other country for that matter.
Dec 16 06:54:35 <celesteh> i like international greements.  specifically, i like ones designed to promote peace.  like the anti-nucleart proliferation treaties.  i just have a sneaking suspision that nuclear war would suck.  probably delay some maemo releases and whatnot
Dec 16 06:54:50 <doc|home> celesteh: he's not against any agreements, he's against these agreements.
Dec 16 06:55:40 <celesteh> the UN has done quite a bit to promote peace and prevent another world war.  that the us chooses to run roughshod over it only shows the US to be a law-breaking state, not anyhting intrinsically wrong with the organization
Dec 16 06:56:04 <doc|home> celesteh: check out his videos and you'll see he promotes discussion and trade and is opposed "entangling alliances" which is what those agreements are
Dec 16 06:57:01 <celesteh> What do I, as an American citizen, get from having extra soverignty?
Dec 16 06:57:07 <doc|home> I thought he was a bit off the wall too, specifically some of the stuff he wanted to dismantle, but they make a lot of sense when you see the justification
Dec 16 06:57:12 <celesteh> I get the ICC falling apart.  That doesn't help me
Dec 16 06:57:28 <celesteh> I get the UN falling apart.  That doesn't help me.
Dec 16 06:57:51 <doc|home> celesteh: the US makes up a large part of the UN forces, that costs the US money, paid for in taxes and national debt (which leads to inflation) both of which affect you.
Dec 16 06:58:06 <celesteh> The more the US turns into an outlaw state, the lower the dollar falls and the harder it is for me to move abroad.  This hurts me as a citizen
Dec 16 06:58:08 <pupnik> Wow, celesteh is technically american
Dec 16 06:58:34 <doc|home> celesteh: thanks to the government which he wants to help remove the power from.
Dec 16 06:58:51 <doc|home> celesteh: that's also thanks to the federal reserve, which he wants to dismantle.
Dec 16 06:59:12 <celesteh> Withdrawing from international organizations does not help the US's status/perception as an outlaw state.
Dec 16 06:59:19 <doc|home> they've only been there since 1913 and the dollar has inflated at an unprecedent rate since then
Dec 16 06:59:34 <doc|home> celesteh: he'll pull out of every country US forces are in. That would mean a hell of a lot more.
Dec 16 06:59:35 <celesteh> pupnik: wow, what.  I'm in Berkeley
Dec 16 07:00:09 <celesteh> blame william jennings bryant and his cross if gold
Dec 16 07:00:12 <doc|home> celesteh: international organisations mean nothing. You can still talk to people.
Dec 16 07:00:18 <celesteh> s /if/of/
Dec 16 07:01:24 <celesteh> indeed, nothing prevents you from talking to people, but withdrawing from the forum in which suchs discussions take place does send a signal about isolationism.  not the good kind of stop-meddling isolationism, but the we-don't care-what-you-think kind
Dec 16 07:01:53 <doc|home> celesteh: it also says you're not happy with how the organisation has progressed. It's a lot different to how it was when it was formed.
Dec 16 07:02:02 <doc|home> china and russia can veto anything
Dec 16 07:02:09 <celesteh> so can we
Dec 16 07:02:09 <doc|home> as can france and britain
Dec 16 07:02:11 <doc|home> exactly
Dec 16 07:02:22 <celesteh> on the security counsil, not in the general assembly
Dec 16 07:02:26 <doc|home> so you may want to do something which is completely justified and right, but they can veto it
Dec 16 07:02:27 <celesteh> and losing the vetos would be a good thing
Dec 16 07:02:46 <doc|home> exactly, but then it's a completely different organisation
Dec 16 07:02:50 <celesteh> but ditching vetos and ditching the whole org are different things
Dec 16 07:03:06 <celesteh> the security counsil would, indeed, change.
Dec 16 07:03:06 <doc|home> celesteh: yeah, but can you see anyone ditching their veto?
Dec 16 07:03:33 <celesteh> i'm reminded of a proverb about babies and bathwater
Dec 16 07:03:53 <doc|home> meh, sometimes babies suck
Dec 16 07:03:54 <doc|home> ;)
Dec 16 07:04:03 <celesteh> heh
Dec 16 07:04:18 <celesteh> they only get rights until they're born.
Dec 16 07:04:24 <celesteh> then they're not so innocent anymore
Dec 16 07:05:37 <doc|home> you gave those quotes so I'm going to give you another one of his quotes: "The purpose of government is to protect the secrecy and privacy of all individuals, not the secrecy of the government". Does that sound like any other politician to you? And he's a ten term congressman who has voted against even congressional pay raises.
Dec 16 07:05:49 <syntux> is there any way to connect N800 to Garmin device ?
Dec 16 07:06:01 <doc|home> you're looking at the negatives, look at the positives too
Dec 16 07:06:09 <celesteh> those quotes, btw, were from his campaign website
Dec 16 07:06:17 <celesteh> on the part where he explains his positions
Dec 16 07:06:29 <doc|home> celesteh: right, but as with any politician you have to look deeper to find out anything
Dec 16 07:06:43 <celesteh> they're the little blurbs you see before you click for more.  they were not unfair in any way
Dec 16 07:07:49 <doc|home> anything that you see as a negative generally has a reasonable explanation once you find it. I'm not so bothered about immigration, but it supposedly is a big problem in some states. The up sides far outweigh the downsides with him. More than any othe politician.
Dec 16 07:08:41 <pupnik> Someone has to pull the brakes on the train heading off the cliff.
Dec 16 07:08:49 <celesteh> there is not a good justification for ending brithright citizenship.
Dec 16 07:09:14 <celesteh> the states that are all up in arms about immigrants are the states with the fewest
Dec 16 07:09:14 <doc|home> celesteh: in Ireland we have people from countries outside the EU who come over weeks before they're due to give birth. Then demand citizenship.
Dec 16 07:09:27 <doc|home> the same supposedly is happening in the US
Dec 16 07:09:30 <celesteh> california is a border state and it's not going crazy
Dec 16 07:09:49 <doc|home> but hey, that's just one issue
Dec 16 07:10:21 <celesteh> anything that ammends the consitution to remove rights from particular individuals because of their parents legal status is not just one issues.  it is a huge issue
Dec 16 07:10:24 <doc|home> is it really a killer issue? I mean, look at the rest of them, can you tell me that that's the problem in the world :/
Dec 16 07:10:47 <celesteh> fine, underminding the ICC would also be enough for me to dismiss him outright
Dec 16 07:11:00 <doc|home> celesteh: hah, because they're important?
Dec 16 07:11:13 <celesteh> the US should increase it's participation in peace-promiting international orgs, not reduce
Dec 16 07:11:23 <doc|home> really, if Bush can get away with what he's done and the ICC has done nothing of any great use, how can they be a key issue for you?
Dec 16 07:11:43 <celesteh> if the most armed country in the world suddenly up and quits the UN, don't you think that would have implications?
Dec 16 07:11:49 <doc|home> celesteh: again, the US should not be intervening at all. That's what it should do. Where does it get to say what another country should do?
Dec 16 07:11:58 <celesteh> the ICC's charter is such that it will not prosecute americans
Dec 16 07:11:58 <syntux> whoo haa, politics at #Maemo :-)
Dec 16 07:12:01 <syntux> that's wonderful
Dec 16 07:12:13 <doc|home> celesteh: and you think that's ok?
Dec 16 07:12:14 <celesteh> you can't criticize it for not violating it's charter
Dec 16 07:12:28 <syntux> do you think #Politics folks would be talking about Maemo ? maybe discussing OS2008?
Dec 16 07:12:43 <celesteh> if you want the ICC to start prosecuting americans, you can amend the charter
Dec 16 07:12:53 <celesteh> withdrawing from it will just cause it to collapse
Dec 16 07:13:02 <celesteh> no more world court.  that promotes peace how?
Dec 16 07:13:09 <doc|home> how is it doing it now?
Dec 16 07:13:23 <celesteh> charles taylor is being held in the hague
Dec 16 07:13:42 <celesteh> (couldn't have ahppened to a nicer guy)
Dec 16 07:14:06 <doc|home> and you think that has stopped anyone else from committing atrocities?
Dec 16 07:14:11 <doc|home> or will in the future?
Dec 16 07:14:25 <doc|home> do you think these people really consider the ICC when they carry out their actions?
Dec 16 07:14:42 <doc|home> "Oh well, I was going to kill thousands of people but the ICC, they'll dislike that"
Dec 16 07:14:44 <celesteh> what kind of nihilism causes people to give up on the rule of law because it's not perfect?
Dec 16 07:15:00 <celesteh> shoudl we get rid of laws against murder because serial killers do it anyway?
Dec 16 07:15:24 <doc|home> celesteh: has the ICC stopped the murder of close to a million people in Iraq
Dec 16 07:15:43 <doc|home> is it not for the people of Liberia to try Charles taylor?
Dec 16 07:16:08 <celesteh> no, the ICC has not violated the treaties that established it
Dec 16 07:16:21 <pupnik> NP: The The - I've been waiting for this moment, all of my life.
Dec 16 07:16:36 <celesteh> sometimes, it can be very difficult for people who have just gotten out from under a dictator to do a trial themselves due to lingering fear and corruption
Dec 16 07:16:47 <doc|home> celesteh: again, who gets prosecuted by the ICC, the people who should be or the people who the supporters of the ICC dislike?
Dec 16 07:16:52 <pupnik> ICC has been partisan in NATO wars, it's a joke for post-facto criminalization of the west's opponents.
Dec 16 07:16:57 <doc|home> celesteh: the Italians did it
Dec 16 07:17:05 <doc|home> many do, history is full of examples of it
Dec 16 07:17:37 <celesteh> many don't.  Taylor was a US a puppet.  That makes it somehwat more complicated for them
Dec 16 07:17:41 <doc|home> sorry, they didn't try mussolini, he was dealt with otherwise
Dec 16 07:18:35 <celesteh> no international org is perfect.  we can try to fix them.  we should try to fix them
Dec 16 07:19:03 <celesteh> fixing them != breaking them
Dec 16 07:19:11 <doc|home> sometimes they can't be fixed, the US would never agree to a change in the charter
Dec 16 07:19:13 <celesteh> fixing them != abadoning them
Dec 16 07:19:46 <celesteh> who is the US in this case?  The citizens?  The guy who is running for president who wants out because they voerpriviledge the country?
Dec 16 07:19:59 <celesteh> s /voer/over/
Dec 16 07:20:19 <doc|home> celesteh: I've to go now, go vote for whoever suits you. If the ICC is your key issue I'm a little worried, I have to say. Failing economy? Fine, Terrible Foreign policy? fine. But dismantle the ICC? NEVAR!
Dec 16 07:20:32 <celesteh> if we'd elect a guy who says, "wow, we shouldn't have this veto," wouldn't that indicate that we'd then have a government which would act to get rid of the veto?
Dec 16 07:21:16 <pupnik> Altitude: $634,000  Velocity: $300,000/hr
Dec 16 07:21:25 <celesteh> Screing international orgs is worse foreign policy!  It doesn't fix anything!  It exacerabtes recent negative trends.  Not only do we invade people but we drop out of everything designed to stop such things!
Dec 16 07:22:58 <doc|home> celesteh: his foreign policy is to NOT invade anywhere in the first place.
Dec 16 07:23:13 <doc|home> and to pull out of those places US forces are already
Dec 16 07:23:14 <pupnik> celesteh: they don't stop such things.
Dec 16 07:23:29 <pupnik> celesteh: only the american people can stop it - by voting for Ron Paul
Dec 16 07:40:57 <thoughtfix> OK kind sirs. Must get ready for $girl arrival.
Dec 16 08:10:16 <corevette> http://paulcash.slact.net/ - amazing
Dec 16 08:17:59 <pupnik> :D
Dec 16 08:18:23 <pupnik> at 3:00 AM! (est)
Dec 16 08:59:25 <L0cutus> Consumes more energy an usb keyboard or a bluetooth?
Dec 16 09:00:34 <pupnik> with rechargeable AAA akkus, my bluetooth keyboard lasts 3 days to 2 weeks
Dec 16 09:02:21 <L0cutus> i mean wich one drain the tablet more fast
Dec 16 09:02:50 <L0cutus> since the tablet can give max 200mA to an usb device
Dec 16 09:04:49 <pupnik> good question
Dec 16 09:05:48 <L0cutus> in other words, consumes more power a bluetooth connection or an usb connection ?
Dec 16 09:05:49 <L0cutus> :)
Dec 16 09:06:03 <L0cutus> i think a n usb connection drain more power...
Dec 16 09:06:20 <pupnik> i think so too - i think bluetooth is somewhere around 10mw
Dec 16 09:06:31 <L0cutus> and also has power saving
Dec 16 09:06:38 <L0cutus> have*
Dec 16 09:07:29 <pupnik> there are three classes of bluetooth RF power levels, 1, 10 and 100mw sending power
Dec 16 09:08:40 <L0cutus> is automatically selected ?
Dec 16 09:09:51 <L0cutus> i have see that synergy is less usable with os2008
Dec 16 09:10:11 <L0cutus> since i don't know how to switch input type
Dec 16 09:10:19 <L0cutus> the old script are gone
Dec 16 09:12:36 <pupnik> input type for syn?
Dec 16 09:12:53 <pupnik> i can find it
Dec 16 09:13:29 <pupnik> maemo-gtk-im-switch xim
Dec 16 09:13:33 <L0cutus> yes
Dec 16 09:14:12 <L0cutus> can't find it anymore :-\
Dec 16 09:14:32 <pupnik> ohhh
Dec 16 09:22:48 <L0cutus> http://tabletblog.com/2006/01/usb-power-injector-2.html
Dec 16 09:22:49 <L0cutus> :)
Dec 16 09:22:54 <L0cutus> interesting
Dec 16 09:49:39 <maddler> morning all...
Dec 16 10:40:22 <sciboy> http://www.blackberrycool.com/2006/07/27/002065/ - That would be neat to have.
Dec 16 10:44:05 <sciboy> Predictive text with only 6 buttons for the alphabet.
Dec 16 10:45:14 <pupnik> L0cutus: i think the 4 AA 1.25 volt NiMH batteries would be preferable to that 9V going through the voltage convertor - at least easier to wire up without ordering parts.
Dec 16 10:52:01 <sciboy> The big different being the distance you hand has to travel, all the buttons you need directly border each other.
Dec 16 10:52:08 <sciboy> difference*
Dec 16 11:14:16 <b0unc3> good morning
Dec 16 11:22:06 <syntux> Yes, good morning
Dec 16 11:22:13 <syntux> is there any way to connect N800 to Garmin device ?
Dec 16 11:22:24 <syntux> or is there any way to install Google Earth on N800 ?
Dec 16 11:22:41 <pupnik> dunno
Dec 16 11:22:50 <pupnik> is there a collaborative text editor for maemo?
Dec 16 11:25:44 <pupnik> testing gobby right now
Dec 16 11:25:48 <pupnik> tons of dependencies tho
Dec 16 11:52:01 <pupnik> anybody up for a quick gizmo test?
Dec 16 11:53:02 <gomiam> pupnik: what do you want to test?
Dec 16 11:53:12 <pupnik> if it works - had problems with another person
Dec 16 11:53:18 <pupnik> need to see whose end the problem is on
Dec 16 11:53:24 <pupnik> the call would connect, but no sound
Dec 16 11:54:27 <gomiam> give me a couple of minutes and we can try it
Dec 16 11:54:33 <pupnik> ok ty
Dec 16 11:54:43 <pupnik> much obliged :)
Dec 16 11:58:09 <gomiam> ok, starting Gizmo up...
Dec 16 11:58:22 <gomiam> logging in as magao3046
Dec 16 11:58:49 <gomiam> downloading latest update...
Dec 16 11:59:55 <gomiam> launching application manager...
Dec 16 12:00:50 <pupnik> i'm on as pupnik
Dec 16 12:01:32 <gomiam> updating....
Dec 16 12:03:44 <gomiam> relaunching gizmo...
Dec 16 12:04:41 <gomiam> adding pupnik...
Dec 16 12:04:59 <gomiam> calling
Dec 16 12:05:48 <gomiam> waitiing for callback...
Dec 16 12:07:14 <pupnik> thanks - problem was on his end
Dec 16 12:08:49 <gomiam> ok, shutting down Gizmo
Dec 16 12:09:48 <pupnik> i do not have any special ports open for gizmo either
Dec 16 12:09:55 <pupnik> it must be the other guy's firewall or something
Dec 16 12:10:50 <gomiam> yup, must be that
Dec 16 12:11:06 <gomiam> it might even be the Windows Firewall (going out on a limb here)
Dec 16 12:11:50 <gomiam> if it decided the Gizmo application has no permissions to receive data and your pal didn't know how to change that, it might do that
Dec 16 12:13:25 <gomiam> well, now it's time to get back to trying to find the elusive "Windows patch" that allows Xen-izing Windows without paravirtualization :-)
Dec 16 12:14:07 <gopi_> hmm. colloquy seems to be leaving this window blank for some reason.
Dec 16 12:15:45 <gopi> Let's see if this works now.
Dec 16 12:16:56 <gomiam> pupnik: it seems I cut the conversation short and Gizmo decided I needed to get a voicemail XD
Dec 16 12:17:04 <gomiam> (from you, that is)
Dec 16 12:17:37 <pupnik> yes i sent a mail before you got online with the client
Dec 16 12:17:52 <pupnik> well i placed a call, and gizmo seems to have a server-based answering machine
Dec 16 12:18:09 <gomiam> well, it got your message quite clearly
Dec 16 12:18:19 <gomiam> (listening to the .WAV file right now)
Dec 16 12:18:31 <pupnik> i like the app.  just need to learn how to connect to other SIP clients, not just gizmo
Dec 16 12:19:48 <gomiam> it would seem you can set what protocol a contact uses while adding it
Dec 16 12:20:00 <gomiam> (at least I got a drop-down list that included SIP)
Dec 16 12:20:06 <pupnik> ok thx
Dec 16 12:45:10 <t_s_o> hmm, is it much point in getting a 770 fixed these days? or should i just grab a N800? still, its about 6 months since i got the 770, so...
Dec 16 12:47:10 <gopi> I prefer the 770's physical design for handheld use.
Dec 16 12:51:23 <hugolp> bah, get a N800
Dec 16 12:51:29 <hugolp> OS2008 is great
Dec 16 12:55:38 <kulve> the double memory in n800 compared to 770 is quite useful..
Dec 16 12:58:52 <gomiam> and, since OS2008, you can use the N800 as a USB _host_
Dec 16 12:58:58 <gomiam> which can be quite interesting
Dec 16 12:59:33 <tontsa> what do you mean as host?
Dec 16 13:00:01 <t_s_o> as in, plug in a usb device like say a memory stick?
Dec 16 13:00:17 <gomiam> tontsa: I mean you can connect USB drives, mice, and keyboards through the right cable
Dec 16 13:00:23 <gomiam> and the N800 will even power them
Dec 16 13:00:37 <tontsa> oh ok
Dec 16 13:00:52 <t_s_o> hmm, sounds like ill grab a N800 then if i can find the cash. and maybe get that 770 fixed later
Dec 16 13:01:11 <gomiam> (of course, you'd better have a powered USB hub so the N800 won't suffer giving out too much power)
Dec 16 13:01:12 <gomiam> ;-)
Dec 16 13:02:02 <tontsa> i'm just happy using my n810 on the road without any plugs or wires coming out of it :)
Dec 16 13:02:26 <t_s_o> hmm, can that carmonitor thingy use usb based devices to?
Dec 16 13:35:11 <pupnik> n800 can power a usb hard drive (notebook)?
Dec 16 13:35:40 <t_s_o> probably, if running 08. but i wonder how long the battery would last
Dec 16 13:49:25 <astro76> I was under the impression you need to inject power externally for anything with significant current draw
Dec 16 13:49:35 <astro76> like this http://wrlabs.shacknet.nu/~vw/tmp/USB-PI/
Dec 16 13:56:59 <lopz> hola
Dec 16 14:21:08 <Jaffa> Morning, all
Dec 16 14:58:43 <oil_> quickie. how to determinate from which repository I can find wireless-tools ?
Dec 16 15:07:08 <myk0n> hi
Dec 16 15:08:22 <myk0n> gst_element_factory_make segfaults when running in the Nokia N800, does anyone has a clue about it?
Dec 16 15:29:34 * sp3000 read that as gst_element_factory_make_segfaults at first glance
Dec 16 16:00:57 <mgedmin> turns out you do need to reboot a n800 after calibrating the screen for the calibration to take effect
Dec 16 16:01:08 <mgedmin> at least now I know my n800 isn't broken
Dec 16 16:17:44 <sp3000> mgedmin: os?
Dec 16 16:17:52 <mgedmin> 2007
Dec 16 16:17:58 <sp3000> k, https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1728 says fixed now
Dec 16 16:18:04 <mgedmin> great
Dec 16 16:18:13 <mgedmin> I won't need to file a bug report then :-)
Dec 16 17:57:13 <skibur> ok... Any word on official OS2008 bin file for N800?
Dec 16 18:07:12 <kulve> skibur: I think there isn't
Dec 16 18:10:21 <skibur> o ok
Dec 16 18:11:38 <skibur> wondering why bigomips = 160.68?
Dec 16 18:12:12 <kulve> BogoMIPS        : 320.37
Dec 16 18:12:23 <kulve> I think it depends on what you are doing..
Dec 16 18:12:40 <skibur> hum...
Dec 16 18:13:19 <skibur> are you using os2008 or os2007?
Dec 16 18:34:58 <kulve> 2008
Dec 16 19:16:29 <dick-richardson> where is the path specified?
Dec 16 19:23:09 <dick-richardson> when I type into my vnc client in os2008, the letters are doubled on the vnc server...anyone come across this?
Dec 16 19:25:55 <bz_g> looks like OS2008 (used to) double keystrokes on xterm as well: http://www.internettablettalk.com/forums/archive/index.php/index.php?t-12295.html
Dec 16 19:28:35 <bz_g> any news from maemo for the final release of OS2008 ?
Dec 16 19:29:30 <kulve> no news on the final os2008 (at least I haven't seen any)
Dec 16 19:38:21 <bz_g> kulve: thanks.
Dec 16 19:39:10 <bz_g> I've got my N800 yesterday, I plan to upgrade quite soon.
Dec 16 19:39:40 <bz_g> But one thing: will it be possible to upgrade from 0S2008 (beta) to 0S2008 (final) smoothly?
Dec 16 19:39:57 <bz_g> Or will that require to flash again ?
Dec 16 19:40:39 <timeless> bz_g: asking's pointless
Dec 16 19:40:43 <tontsa> definately a flash. there's no point for nokia to waste time QA:ing some smooth upgrade from beta
Dec 16 19:40:54 <timeless> when there's news,it'll be on maemo.org/, planet.maemo.org, and the channel topic
Dec 16 19:41:35 <timeless> note: for a final, like os2008/n800, it'd obviously be at least a flash
Dec 16 19:41:41 <dick-richardson> I'd leave it 2007 until the final release
Dec 16 19:41:44 <timeless> and most likely there will be flashed for a while
Dec 16 19:41:51 <timeless> s/flashed/flashes/
Dec 16 19:41:52 <infobot> timeless meant: and most likely there will be flashes for a while
Dec 16 19:41:58 <timeless> whether or note there are also updates available
Dec 16 19:42:39 <timeless> s/note/not/
Dec 16 19:42:41 * timeless cries
Dec 16 19:42:41 <infobot> timeless meant: whether or not there are also updates available
Dec 16 19:44:12 * bz_g wonders if timeless is on #maemo via xchat/N8[01]0
Dec 16 19:44:40 <bz_g> dick-richardson: thanks, I think I'll do this.
Dec 16 19:45:20 <timeless> bz_g: epic via screen/ssh/putty atm
Dec 16 19:45:27 <timeless> watching "The siege" on tv
Dec 16 19:45:46 <timeless> sometimes i do use terminal's on my 770/n800/n810s
Dec 16 19:45:57 <timeless> but in this case, i'm mostly tired
Dec 16 19:46:19 * timeless goes back to handing out thumbs down
Dec 16 19:47:51 <dick-richardson> I have some movies I've encoded xvid/mp3 (vbr) and I'm getting a media corrupted message on my n810...
Dec 16 19:49:07 <timeless> dick: internal card?
Dec 16 19:49:21 <dick-richardson> external...or samba
Dec 16 19:49:44 <timeless> media corrupted is from a movie player about the movie
Dec 16 19:49:53 <timeless> or from the device/platform about the file systems?
Dec 16 19:50:04 <dick-richardson> movie player about the movie
Dec 16 19:50:51 <timeless> dick: look into jaffa's media thingy
Dec 16 19:50:55 <dick-richardson> "Unable to open. Media clip corrupted."
Dec 16 19:50:58 <dick-richardson> kk
Dec 16 19:51:11 <timeless> btw, if you feel the English text sucks, please file a bug :)
Dec 16 19:51:52 <dick-richardson> where is it?
Dec 16 19:52:29 <timeless> maemo.org/downloads
Dec 16 19:52:33 <timeless> the trick is remembering its name :)
Dec 16 19:52:56 <dick-richardson> tablet-encode v2.15 - now with GUI
Dec 16 19:53:05 <dick-richardson> ?
Dec 16 19:53:13 <timeless> i really don't remember :)
Dec 16 19:59:29 <dick-richardson> here we go...we'll see how well it works :D
Dec 16 20:01:51 <konttori> has canola been published yet?
Dec 16 20:21:31 <univac> hi
Dec 16 20:21:42 <univac> who have n800 for sell? ;p
Dec 16 20:24:02 <alterego> univac, Nokia
Dec 16 20:24:34 <univac> i dont need brand new :)
Dec 16 20:24:47 <alterego> This isn't a market place univac
Dec 16 20:25:17 <univac> Eh, maybe whos have for sell ..
Dec 16 20:40:17 <tank-man> univac, how much would you pay for a used one?
Dec 16 20:43:05 <zerojay> I wouldn't go higher than $100 for a used N800 now.
Dec 16 20:44:23 <tank-man> i wouldnt sell my used one for $100
Dec 16 20:44:27 <tank-man> my precious
Dec 16 20:45:22 <zerojay> Can't be too precious if you'd sell it at all. :)
Dec 16 20:46:40 <alterego> I'd sell my used one for $200
Dec 16 20:46:46 <alterego> $100 is way too cheap ..
Dec 16 20:46:53 <zerojay> They sell brand new for $200.
Dec 16 20:47:01 <alterego> They do?
Dec 16 20:47:02 <tank-man> exactly :) hahaha
Dec 16 20:47:04 <univac> true :)
Dec 16 20:47:05 <zerojay> Yeah?
Dec 16 20:47:15 <zerojay> N800s are about $200 new now.
Dec 16 20:47:15 <alterego> That's pretty cheap.
Dec 16 20:47:41 <alterego> Well, I'm not selling mine any way :P
Dec 16 20:47:52 <alterego> I'm going to rip it apart instead.
Dec 16 20:47:54 * |R hates scripting file names with spaces :|
Dec 16 20:48:00 <univac> nokia.com wouldnt ship to my country, blach
Dec 16 20:49:28 <alterego> immigrate ;)
Dec 16 20:49:50 <|R> they'll ship to canada though now, i'm happy :)
Dec 16 20:50:37 <univac> alterego: pff, never ;d
Dec 16 20:52:31 <alterego> Well, obviously Nokia don't recognise your country. You must be in a crap place :P
Dec 16 20:52:49 <univac> poland ;p
Dec 16 20:53:01 <alterego> Must be pretty lonely there now.
Dec 16 20:53:01 <edistar> has jack been ported to maemo?
Dec 16 20:55:50 <alterego> Why would you want that on Maemo?
Dec 16 20:56:28 <edistar> alterego: I'd like to run idjc on maemo
Dec 16 20:56:51 <alterego> Don't know what that is :)
Dec 16 20:57:18 <edistar> alterego: a dj program
Dec 16 20:57:34 <alterego> I seriously doubt that'd work well.
Dec 16 20:57:40 <alterego> But you can try porting it yourself ..
Dec 16 20:57:44 <edistar> alterego: me too, but I wanted to try :)
Dec 16 21:56:48 <shackan> who is this Darius Jack guy and why does he always act like a dick?
Dec 16 22:13:04 <|tbb|> is the navigation software for os2008 available right now
Dec 16 22:21:13 <timeless> |tbb|: it's part of the flash image
Dec 16 22:21:34 <timeless> although from what i understand some paid feature is not currently available
Dec 16 22:21:41 <timeless> i think that's the audio guidance or something
Dec 16 22:23:12 <|tbb|> is it possible to use it with n800
Dec 16 22:51:15 <jeremym> anyone here familiar with maemo mapper?
Dec 16 22:52:26 <jeremym> I would like to get it to talk to a file (/tmp/nmeaNP) .   It only seems to want to talk bluetooth.
Dec 16 22:54:08 <GNUton> hi!
Dec 16 23:03:16 <lardman|home> soooo, does the week start on a Sunday or a Monday...?
Dec 16 23:04:14 <tontsa> that depends on culture
Dec 16 23:04:57 <lardman|home> for the Finnish, or Spaniards who work for Finnish companies?
Dec 16 23:06:34 <lardman|home> anyway, my code didn't work when I tried it an hour ago
Dec 16 23:07:38 <|tbb|> gimme the code i will try it for u ;)
Dec 16 23:08:04 <lardman|home> N0tAchAnCe
Dec 16 23:08:28 <lardman|home> but thanks for the offer :)
Dec 16 23:08:39 <tontsa> weeks start on mondays in finland
Dec 16 23:08:57 <tontsa> like it's week 51 now
Dec 16 23:09:14 <derf> They said it would become active next week, but not _when_ during the week.
Dec 16 23:09:17 <lardman|home> that's true, it's tomorrow over there isn't it
Dec 16 23:09:27 <lardman|home> derf: I know, wishful thinking
Dec 16 23:09:30 <tontsa> 1am in monday right now
Dec 16 23:10:04 <derf> Presumably you'll get e-mail.
Dec 16 23:10:23 <lardman|home> good point
Dec 16 23:11:24 <lardman|home> derf: I sidestepped the issues with memcpy() (though I still can't memcpy), now tweaking _checksum() to work with 16bit bytes
Dec 16 23:12:43 <dragorn> jeremym: the latest version has file support
Dec 16 23:12:49 <dragorn> jeremym: though I haven't tried it
Dec 16 23:15:53 <tontsa> i wonder why nokia offers fm-radio app to n810.. or is there actually some special headset that works as antenna
Dec 16 23:16:11 <timeless> anyone here use modest?
Dec 16 23:16:59 <timeless> http://www.wirelessgalaxy.com/headsets/productdetails.asp?productid=102
Dec 16 23:17:09 * timeless wonders what that means (in English)
Dec 16 23:17:16 <Sho_> timeless: The repos is per-OS, not per-Device, I guess
Dec 16 23:17:31 <Sho_> tontsa, that is
Dec 16 23:17:35 <timeless> sho: i wasn't wondering :)
Dec 16 23:17:43 <timeless> and while the repo is per os
Dec 16 23:17:52 <timeless> you can easily make a package that means "n800"
Dec 16 23:17:58 <timeless> and depend on the n800 package
Dec 16 23:17:59 <Sho_> timeless: Sorry, tab completion that completes to the most recently active user for the given prefix ;)
Dec 16 23:18:20 <timeless> or better, make a package that provides "hardware-camera" and "hardware-fmradio"
Dec 16 23:18:23 <timeless> and depend on that
Dec 16 23:18:41 <timeless> sho: lesson learned, don't rely on tab completion ;-)
Dec 16 23:19:14 * timeless grumbles
Dec 16 23:19:19 * timeless can't reach nokia.com
Dec 16 23:22:10 <tontsa> i think that HDD-1 is discontinued for some reason
Dec 16 23:23:05 <tontsa> atleast nokia.fi can't find the product anymore
Dec 16 23:25:18 <tontsa> not that either n800 or n810 product specs advertise fm-radio
Dec 16 23:27:58 <tontsa> ohh.. in n800 it's "hidden"
Dec 16 23:30:35 <tontsa> pity they changed that to lousy gps-radio in n810 :)
Dec 16 23:31:13 <tontsa> i finally found out what was killing bluetooth connection, it's the os2008 built-in mail client
Dec 16 23:31:44 <tontsa> everytime my mailbox had more than 3 or 4 messages, everything would get really slow and eventually bluetooth would be dropped
Dec 16 23:31:54 <tontsa> although n810 still thought the bluetooth connection is on
Dec 16 23:33:06 <lardman|home> what's 0^0?
Dec 16 23:33:26 <tontsa> ?
Dec 16 23:33:31 <lardman|home> should be 1
Dec 16 23:33:38 <lardman|home> debugging crc code
Dec 16 23:33:59 <tontsa> glad i'm not into math
Dec 16 23:34:21 <tontsa> looks like an emoticon for non math guy
Dec 16 23:34:29 <lardman|home> :)
Dec 16 23:34:47 <lardman|home> I'm not having much luck with it, can't quite work out what's causing a bus error
Dec 16 23:37:03 <lardman|home> wierd, something in this is causing the bus error: crc_lookup[((crc_reg >> 24)&0xff)^data[j]]
Dec 16 23:37:15 <lardman|home> but crc_lookup[0] works and =0
Dec 16 23:37:35 <lardman|home> and ((crc_reg >> 24)&0xff)^data[j] also works and =0
Dec 16 23:45:11 <timeless> tontsa: you don't like 4=1+1+1?
Dec 16 23:46:25 <tontsa> what's there to like
Dec 16 23:47:48 <timeless> lardman, there are two operations "^", if you have a decent browser, you can ask it: javascript:[0^0,Math.pow(0,0)] -- 0,1
Dec 16 23:48:24 <lardman|home> timeless: Octave tells me 1, as expected
Dec 16 23:48:31 <timeless> typically in cs, the first one is what ^ is, and the second one has the other meaning
Dec 16 23:48:41 <timeless> s/the other meaning/some other notation/
Dec 16 23:48:42 <infobot> timeless meant: typically in cs, the first one is what ^ is, and the second one has some other notation
Dec 16 23:49:32 <timeless> javascript:(3^1)==2
Dec 16 23:49:34 <timeless> true
Dec 16 23:49:45 <lardman|home> interesting
Dec 16 23:49:46 <timeless> in cs, ^ = exclusive or
Dec 16 23:49:52 <lardman|home> ah, I see
Dec 16 23:49:53 <timeless> (bitwise)
Dec 16 23:50:05 <lardman|home> in C I assume it's still pow()
Dec 16 23:50:07 <timeless> along w/ | and &
Dec 16 23:50:09 <timeless> no
Dec 16 23:50:22 <timeless> c, js, just about every "normal" language uses it for bitwise
Dec 16 23:50:34 <tontsa> ** is the math equilevant
Dec 16 23:50:41 <timeless> some languages use ** for the math equivalent
Dec 16 23:50:43 <timeless> some don't
Dec 16 23:50:45 <timeless> (js doesn't)
Dec 16 23:50:51 <lardman|home> aah, I use MATLAB too much
Dec 16 23:51:21 <fysa> what's needed to get videocenter going on os2008?
Dec 16 23:51:27 <timeless> anyway, in general, assume that js is close enough to C
Dec 16 23:51:31 <lardman|home> makes more sense being a logical operation than raising to a power
Dec 16 23:51:43 <timeless> js can easily be evaluated in most web browsers, as demo'd above
Dec 16 23:53:01 <timeless> http://silver.warwickcompsoc.co.uk/mozilla/misc/nserror
Dec 16 23:53:08 <timeless> is an example of heavy abuse of creatures
Dec 16 23:53:48 <timeless> http://viper.haque.net/~timeless/nsError/shlr.pl
Dec 16 23:53:52 <timeless> is probably relevant
Dec 16 23:54:07 <lardman|home> very strange, I can't do this: temp_index=0; crc_lookup[temp_index], but can do this: (ogg_uint32_t)*(&crc_lookup + temp_index)
Dec 16 23:54:11 <timeless> << is typically how one encounters Math.pow
Dec 16 23:54:30 <timeless> can't=compile error?
Dec 16 23:54:39 <timeless> what's the type for crc_lookup?
Dec 16 23:54:44 <lardman|home> produces a bus error
Dec 16 23:54:55 <lardman|home> ogg_uint32_t
Dec 16 23:55:11 <timeless> for crc_lookup?
Dec 16 23:55:15 <lardman|home> the DSP compiler doesn't like using arrays to access memory it seems
Dec 16 23:55:28 <lardman|home> yes, crc_lookup is an array of ogg_uint32_t
Dec 16 23:56:16 <timeless> 120 typedef         __u32           uint32_t;
Dec 16 23:56:24 <timeless> that just means it's a number, no?
Dec 16 23:56:26 <timeless> not a pointer?
Dec 16 23:56:37 <lardman|home> it's just a number, 32bit unsigned
Dec 16 23:56:52 <timeless> why would you expect 4[5] to do something useful?
Dec 16 23:57:25 <lardman|home> crc_lookup is an array of 256 elements
Dec 16 23:57:29 <timeless> oddly, int y; int *x=&y; 0[x]; does something useful
Dec 16 23:57:44 <timeless> gah, what's the type of the token |crc_lookup|
Dec 16 23:57:58 <timeless> the whole type, not the type of something related to it
Dec 16 23:58:05 <nomis> the [] operator is commutative, i.e. a[b] = b[a]
Dec 16 23:58:18 <timeless> nomis: depends on the language :)
Dec 16 23:58:21 <timeless> in js, it isn't :)
Dec 16 23:58:21 <lardman|home> ah, it's an array of  ogg_uint32_t, so it's a pointer I suppose
Dec 16 23:58:29 * nomis is talking C. Ok.  :)
Dec 16 23:58:36 * lardman|home is also talking C
Dec 16 23:58:55 * timeless frowns
Dec 16 23:59:01 <timeless> a bus error, eh?
Dec 16 23:59:18 <timeless> only on arm, i'm assuming?
Dec 16 23:59:26 <lardman|home> dsp
Dec 16 23:59:45 <skibur> seinor
Dec 16 23:59:47 <cbx33> hey all I just updated my howto for maemo 4.0
Dec 17 00:00:03 <cbx33> i think my blog was linked from a bot kb here
Dec 17 00:00:04 <timeless> what do you mean dsp?
Dec 17 00:00:13 <lardman|home> the other curious thing is that although I shouldn't need the & in there, I need to put it in
Dec 17 00:00:17 <cbx33> if anyone wants to update it give me a shout
Dec 17 00:00:20 <timeless> cbx33: "infobot" is "the last bot standing"
Dec 17 00:00:21 <lardman|home> timeless: Ti C55 DSP
Dec 17 00:00:38 <cbx33> timeless, http://www.progbox.co.uk/wordpress/?p=453
Dec 17 00:01:06 <timeless> cbx33: i don't own the bot, if you can figure out how to operate it, ... i suppose you're the channel's guest :)
Dec 17 00:01:33 <dragorn> if crc_lookup is an array, then crc_lookup is a pointer to the first element, so foo[4] should be equivalent to *(foo + 4);
Dec 17 00:01:43 <cbx33> infobot
Dec 17 00:01:48 <Vulc|NotHere> v
Dec 17 00:01:52 <dragorn> (ogg_uint32_t)*(&crc_lookup + temp_index) is just... weird badness. :P
Dec 17 00:01:55 <timeless> lardman: are you using make or gcc directly?
Dec 17 00:02:04 <timeless> in gecko, i'd use make foo.i
Dec 17 00:02:05 <nomis> dragorn: which in turn is equivalent to *(4 + foo) and hence is the same as 4[foo]  :)
Dec 17 00:02:26 <dragorn> nomis: but we proved a while ago with whatever weirdass compiler he's using for the DSP, no, it's not :P
Dec 17 00:02:48 <dragorn> nomis: at least, last week, his compiler threw bounds errors on multi-page maps for array[foo] but not *(array + foo)
Dec 17 00:02:49 <timeless> lardman: try something like:
Dec 17 00:02:55 <timeless> gcc -E -o foo.i foopy.c
Dec 17 00:03:03 <dragorn> timeless: it's not gcc, afaik
Dec 17 00:03:12 <dragorn> which explains the very weird compiler behavior
Dec 17 00:03:20 <timeless> what is it?
Dec 17 00:03:27 <timeless> some ti compiler?
Dec 17 00:03:33 <cbx33> timeless, was just letting people know its there and updated ;)
Dec 17 00:03:36 <nomis> dragorn: ok. I was just so amazed when I learned that 4[foo] thing some time ago, that I cannot stop talking about it  ;)
Dec 17 00:04:14 <dragorn> nomis: I'm confused by that and not entirely sure it would work, unless the compiler has explicit support for that linguistic structure.  It might for some data types.
Dec 17 00:04:18 <timeless> so, this is a "special" compiler?
Dec 17 00:04:35 <nomis> dragorn: I tried it in GCC and it not even triggers a warning.
Dec 17 00:04:40 <dragorn> timeless: afaik, but I'm letting lardman answer since he's actually dealing with it, I jsut remember previous conversations.
Dec 17 00:04:54 <lardman_> re
Dec 17 00:04:57 <dragorn> nomis: it must have a language construct for it to inherit the 'foo' type
Dec 17 00:05:00 <dragorn> lardman: This isn't gcc, is it?
Dec 17 00:05:08 <lardman_> no, it's a Ti compiler
Dec 17 00:05:21 <timeless> lardman: look for something equivalent to -E
Dec 17 00:05:39 <nomis> dragorn: no, not really. It really boils down to the *(4 + foo), which is the usual (commutative) pointer arithmetics inside the parentheses.
Dec 17 00:05:42 <timeless> -E is basically "preprocess, and dump the resulting stuff, but don't compile
Dec 17 00:05:54 <dragorn> nomis: since the subscript size is determined by the array type, it's got to somehow figure out the right additive at compile time
Dec 17 00:06:19 <nomis> dragorn: well one argument has to boil down to some integer, otherwise pointer arithmetics won't work.
Dec 17 00:06:20 <dragorn> nomis: ah, yes.  I see, I was being stupid about my pointer addition
Dec 17 00:06:49 <dragorn> nomis: I believe technically foo[4] expands to *(foo + (sizeof(foo) * 4))
Dec 17 00:07:15 <lardman_> If I declare crc_lookup[256], I can access crc_lookup[0] (i.e. explicit constant 0), but if the index is a variable I need to do *(&crc_lookup + some_var)
Dec 17 00:07:18 <dragorn> nomis: vs. *(foo + 4) which is whatever the native pointer type is (uint32 probably) and 4 bytes
Dec 17 00:07:42 <lardman_> I also have to do *(&crc_lookup + some_var) rather than the expected *(crc_lookup + some_var)
Dec 17 00:07:44 <dragorn> lardman: that seems very broken, since you're dereferencing the address of a pointer plus a number
Dec 17 00:08:00 <nomis> dragorn: right, pointer arithmetics takes the size of the type the pointer points to into account.
Dec 17 00:08:24 <lardman_> dragorn: the compiler should accept both &crc_lookup and crc_lookup as pointers though
Dec 17 00:08:31 <nomis> so if you have  uint8  foo[5];  foo + 3 will point to the fourth array element.
Dec 17 00:08:32 <lardman_> addresses even
Dec 17 00:08:39 <timeless> you really shouldn't use x for x=2**y as an example number
Dec 17 00:08:49 <timeless> it can easily lead to confusion
Dec 17 00:09:02 <dragorn> nomis: yeah.  I'm confusing myself at this time. :)
Dec 17 00:09:20 <dragorn> s/time/point/
Dec 17 00:09:22 <infobot> dragorn meant: nomis: yeah.  I'm confusing myself at this point. :)
Dec 17 00:09:27 <dragorn> f'ing infobot.
Dec 17 00:09:41 <timeless> dragorn: leave off the trailing /
Dec 17 00:09:46 <dragorn> Wonder if we can feed it a nice long regex and make it go away for a while :P
Dec 17 00:10:04 <timeless> infobot will ignore you, the humans who speak regexp will accept it
Dec 17 00:10:19 <dragorn> lardman: where is crc_lookup defined
Dec 17 00:10:44 <MrZaius> sorry if this is borderline off topic, but I know there's a dozen or more people in the room that could answer this without thinking: does the n800 ship with two styluses like the n770 did, or should I buy spares along with the device?
Dec 17 00:11:13 <tontsa> n810 shipped atleast with two
Dec 17 00:11:23 * nomis says something long and winded, trying to confuse the regex mechanism of infobot
Dec 17 00:11:28 <nomis> s/(((.*)*)*)*n$/buh/
Dec 17 00:11:48 <lardman_> dragorn: in the same file
Dec 17 00:11:59 <nomis> either it did work or infobot did not understand it  :)
Dec 17 00:12:02 <lardman_> as a global const
Dec 17 00:12:09 <timeless> afaik, the 770,n800 and n810 all ship w/ 2
Dec 17 00:12:32 <timeless> one in the device and one in the plastic packaging
Dec 17 00:12:39 <nomis> is infobot still allive?
Dec 17 00:12:40 <MrZaius> sweet
Dec 17 00:12:42 <MrZaius> thanks timel
Dec 17 00:12:43 <nomis> s/allive/alive/
Dec 17 00:12:44 <infobot> nomis meant: is infobot still alive?
Dec 17 00:12:46 <timeless> but that's ok, you'll lose both :)
Dec 17 00:12:47 <MrZaius> timeless, rather
Dec 17 00:12:48 <nomis> Mhpf.
Dec 17 00:13:01 <timeless> mrzaius: i respond to both timely and timeless
Dec 17 00:13:04 <MrZaius> kept my n770 stylus for the 6 months it took to break the headphone jack
Dec 17 00:13:10 <timeless> although i tend to insult irc clients that get stuck between :)
Dec 17 00:13:43 <lardman_> hmm, well at least the checksum code actually works now and returns something, shame it's not what the ogg file thinks it should be :)
Dec 17 00:13:45 <timeless> how'd you break the headphone jack?
Dec 17 00:13:49 <MrZaius> http://www.styluscentral.com/fisbulspacpe.html oooooh..... just in case, should buy that
Dec 17 00:14:08 <MrZaius> timeless: wrapping the headphone chord a little to tight around the device, i'd imagine
Dec 17 00:14:18 <MrZaius> wiggled a little and now is just mono, unless you hold it just right
Dec 17 00:14:29 <MrZaius> easy to fix if you know how to use a soldering iron, I'm told
Dec 17 00:14:32 <MrZaius> but I don't, so I didn't
Dec 17 00:14:36 <MrZaius> nice excuse for an upgrade
Dec 17 00:15:06 <timeless> mrzaius: did you at least inform nokia cares?
Dec 17 00:15:13 <timeless> (or was it nokia care?)
Dec 17 00:15:26 <MrZaius> timeless: nah
Dec 17 00:15:33 <MrZaius> picked up a dedicated music player instead
Dec 17 00:15:36 <timeless> mrzaius: afaik they keep records about such things, so knowing that it happens is feedback to the hardware designers
Dec 17 00:15:41 <timeless> which is appreciated
Dec 17 00:15:56 <MrZaius> the OS2007 media player took too long to generate playlists off a 2gb rs-mmc card
Dec 17 00:16:00 <MrZaius> and it ate up batteries
Dec 17 00:16:04 <lardman_> bed time, see you all on the morrow
Dec 17 00:16:22 <timeless> mrzaius: think of all the future users! :)
Dec 17 00:16:27 <MrZaius> but the next owner very well might
Dec 17 00:16:46 <MrZaius> i'll pass along your concern - bet he'll get it fixed
Dec 17 00:17:06 <MrZaius> I just couldn't be without a pda that long, so ordered the n800 which arrives tomorrow
Dec 17 00:17:10 <MrZaius> and selling the n770 tonight
Dec 17 00:17:27 <MrZaius> my wife's an author, and she'd kill me in my sleep if I couldn't read ebooks
Dec 17 00:17:48 <MrZaius> and they don't look right on my bigger displays
Dec 17 00:18:06 * timeless hasn't really found any device that displays ebooks "well"
Dec 17 00:18:24 <MrZaius> my zaurus and n770 did just fine
Dec 17 00:18:28 <timeless> i've used an eink (?), 770,n800,n810,n81, windows w/ msreader
Dec 17 00:18:33 <MrZaius> the trick is to do bright green text on a black background
Dec 17 00:18:38 <MrZaius> extremely high contrast
Dec 17 00:18:41 <MrZaius> very easy on the eyes
Dec 17 00:18:43 <MrZaius> and in the dark
Dec 17 00:18:59 <timeless> you mean like the apple ii c/e? :)
Dec 17 00:19:16 <MrZaius> never gotten my hands on eInk, although I would likely have purchased the amazon one if it hadn't been so badly drm encumbered
Dec 17 00:19:17 <MrZaius> yup
Dec 17 00:19:19 <MrZaius> precisely
Dec 17 00:19:32 <MrZaius> give it a shot - you might be surprised how well it works
Dec 17 00:19:50 <MrZaius> in the dark I can set the backlight to the lowest setting I can use w/o touching text files
Dec 17 00:19:54 <MrZaius> and it's still crystal clear
Dec 17 00:20:12 <MrZaius> and the battery lasts a good long while like that, as you'd imagine
Dec 17 00:20:15 <rhykin> how is the os2008 beta on n800?
Dec 17 00:21:49 * timeless shrugs
Dec 17 00:22:06 <timeless> i never found enough ebook content to use on my internet tablets
Dec 17 00:22:13 <timeless> i found more content for my n81
Dec 17 00:22:29 <timeless> (mobireader?)
Dec 17 00:23:03 <timeless> anyway, nighttime
Dec 17 01:08:17 <n800user> Does anyone else have osso-media-server taking ~78 megs of ram?
Dec 17 01:08:29 <doc|work> o.O
Dec 17 01:09:06 <n800user> Yeah, pretty insane memory hog...
Dec 17 01:10:41 <n800user> Is there a way to reduce the memory consumption that it takes?  I noticed os2008 seems to be very bloated.
Dec 17 01:12:38 <Jiten> sounds like it leaks or then that's mostly virtual memory consumption.
Dec 17 01:13:39 <n800user> This is directly after starting up.
Dec 17 01:14:27 <n800user> All I've done is to start the tablet, open up xterm, then run top.
Dec 17 01:21:13 <Jiten> what does it show for used, free, cached and buffers?
Dec 17 01:25:57 <n800user> Mem: 121788K used, 5040k free, 0K shrd, 23044K buff, 37788K cached
Dec 17 01:28:15 <n800user> Maybe I'll just wait for the official firmware, but everyone has mentioned the speed increase (which I did notice) but it also feels like there's too much stuff loaded into memory
Dec 17 01:28:17 <zerojay> Don't worry about memory.
Dec 17 01:28:46 <zerojay> Besides, if less memory is used, it just means it's wasted anyways.
Dec 17 01:29:19 <Jiten> I wouldn't call it wasted. Linux kernel tends to make pretty good use of it.
Dec 17 01:29:28 <n800user> I'm just concerned that the tablet loads so much just for startup. Maybe it's unwarrented but I'm curious to why is uses so much
Dec 17 01:30:00 <Jiten> top isn't really a reliable measure of the real memory usage.
Dec 17 01:30:12 <n800user> I have all the applets disabled, and am not running anything besides top within xterm
Dec 17 01:32:03 <n800user> Jiten, is there another way to measure performance?
Dec 17 01:32:05 <Jiten> from those values, it's quite clear that the system is only using around 61 megabytes of memory.
Dec 17 01:33:05 <n800user> Since it should throw out the memory from buff and cached when needed?
Dec 17 01:33:20 <smackpotato> it uses as much as possible for caches
Dec 17 01:36:27 <Jiten> however, you really don't want the caches to drop to near 0. It causes very noticeable slowdown of the system.
Dec 17 01:53:10 <skibur> is there an rss feed link for maemo updates?
**** ENDING LOGGING AT Mon Dec 17 02:59:57 2007