**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Sat Sep 13 02:59:56 2008 Sep 13 05:22:05 Yes, t_s_o, itT is full of trolls. Sep 13 05:24:46 I'd just as soon leave them to it Sep 13 05:24:53 itT hasn't been useful in a very long time. Sep 13 05:28:40 to bad really Sep 13 05:30:04 Meh, if they're wasting their energy there, they're not wasting it at productive places like maemo.org. ;) Sep 13 05:35:22 * Stskeeps is definately wasting his time making dpkg-buildpackage'able deblet packages. Sep 13 05:36:31 as in, hours i wish could get back of my life Sep 13 05:36:31 :P Sep 13 05:50:14 hm, anyone who knows if you can make a package depend on name-? Sep 13 06:04:29 help Sep 13 06:22:37 italo: ? Sep 13 06:50:06 I need to work out what's going wrong during init on an n810; is there a workable equivalent to single user mode or init=/bin/sh or even getting rid of the splash screen so I can get output more useful than a meaningless blue status bar? Sep 13 06:57:54 jrayhawk: there's a thread about this on ITT regarding fb console mode i believe Sep 13 06:59:16 ooh Sep 13 07:00:54 I guess the serial console is another option, though documentation for that seems a bit scattered and confusing Sep 13 07:00:58 afaik there is no fb console mode Sep 13 07:01:07 at least not in the default kernel Sep 13 07:01:14 RST38h: it's loadable with a module Sep 13 07:01:53 (i do it in deblet on a stock kernel) Sep 13 07:03:29 Is the n810 keyboard kernel keymapped or is it X event magic? Sep 13 07:03:43 X-interpreted event Sep 13 07:04:07 it's in input0-3 or something Sep 13 07:04:32 Wacky. Sep 13 07:18:54 Uhh... where do I find the maemo ("omap1"?) patchset? Sep 13 07:19:05 For the kernel, that is. Sep 13 07:19:13 you want the .o's needed? :P Sep 13 07:20:00 Oh. I figured it was open source. Sep 13 07:20:18 yeah, it is, but it's easier with .o's :P Sep 13 07:20:40 http://bsd.tspre.org/~stskeeps/nit-debian/2.6.21-omap1.tar.gz , http://trac.tspre.org/projects/deblet/browser/trunk/packages/main/omap-fb-tools , http://trac.tspre.org/projects/deblet/browser/trunk/packages/main/omap-fb-console is what i use in Deblet to make the console fb work Sep 13 07:20:56 (look at the init.d scripts for inspiration) Sep 13 07:23:16 I was hoping to go the monolithic route on the basis that I want to give userspace as little opportunity as possible to screw up my debugging efforts. Sep 13 07:23:47 Plus the monolithic route enables me to replace the kernel and nothing else. Sep 13 07:24:00 (Which is, for some reason, a constraint on the bizarre flasher tool) Sep 13 07:24:17 s/ on / in / Sep 13 07:25:45 Bizarre? Sep 13 07:28:48 Is it possible to make a copy of the rootfs or initfs currently on a Nokia? Sep 13 07:29:06 Sure Sep 13 07:30:18 I mean, given the constraint that I can't fully boot it because init seems to be broken. Sep 13 07:30:40 How is that done? Sep 13 07:31:04 jrayhawk: i think you can prod qwerty12 - he did some work in that area Sep 13 07:31:13 with a initfs hack Sep 13 08:14:15 * Sargun bo Sep 13 08:46:03 hello, zap Sep 13 08:48:11 RST38h: hi Sep 13 08:51:52 Morning all Sep 13 08:52:27 hi everyone Sep 13 09:00:25 Howdy Sep 13 09:03:21 jaffa: fyi, i put fbreader in extras :)) would you re-consider your rating? :D Sep 13 09:03:31 moo, GA Sep 13 09:03:42 MishaS: yup, will do Sep 13 09:03:50 Jaffa, thank you Sep 13 09:03:55 Jaffa: You marked FBreader down for not being in Extras? Inexcusable! Sep 13 09:04:11 * RST38h kindly suggests to burn Jaffa at a stake Sep 13 09:04:16 RST38h, that's just one way to encourage lazy developers :) Sep 13 09:04:22 RST38h: gotta have some stick to wield ;-) Sep 13 09:04:37 I like endlessly badgering the mailing list myself. ;) Sep 13 09:04:42 * MishaS dreams of having gronmeyer useless... Sep 13 09:05:37 there should really be a package search engine for the extras/etc though Sep 13 09:05:47 like for diablo/sdk tools etc Sep 13 09:05:52 ferenc is working on it Sep 13 09:05:54 packages.maemo.org Sep 13 09:06:05 MishaS: I don't use Gronmeyer - I don't think there are (m)any apps I've got installed which aren't from extras(-devel) Sep 13 09:06:24 jaffa, you do not, but others do... Sep 13 09:06:38 GeneralAntilles: a la packages.debian.org ? Sep 13 09:06:49 gronmayer's usefulness has gone down a lot since Diablo. Sep 13 09:06:54 MishaS: oh, indeed - I hope it goes away by having more stuff in extras :) Sep 13 09:06:54 hopefully more stable than packages.debian.org Sep 13 09:06:54 :P Sep 13 09:06:57 It's not even up-to-date anymore. Sep 13 09:07:14 Jaffa, I suppose, ferenc mentioned he wanted to take it on during one of the previous sprint meetings. Sep 13 09:07:44 is the repostory.maemo.org still in Gronmayer? ;) Sep 13 09:07:55 MishaS: has the old fbreader repo been removed from gronmayer? Sep 13 09:07:58 Only the Chinook repos Sep 13 09:08:54 Ha, forgot about this one: http://flickr.com/photos/generalantilles/2454546023/ Sep 13 09:09:12 Wish X on the VGA weren't so godawful slow. Sep 13 09:09:16 somebody even put repostory.maemo.org link to maemo downloads .install file... Sep 13 09:09:43 jaffa: nope Sep 13 09:10:00 Sts: Search engine exists: fms.komkon.org/maemo Sep 13 09:10:11 ha, that reminded me to update the 'download' page for fbreader to mention extras... Sep 13 09:10:13 Sts: And it is even MicroB friendly unlike Gronmayer Sep 13 09:10:54 MishaS: Btw, can I request to [optionally] show current time in FBReader? Sep 13 09:11:02 It does, doesn't it? Sep 13 09:11:10 In full screen mode, isn't the time at the bottom right of the screen? Sep 13 09:11:26 requiring buildable sources for extras is the best thing happened for maemo, imo Sep 13 09:11:32 yup Sep 13 09:11:32 Nope - have to minimize it to check whether you have exceeded your daily no-sleep allowance Sep 13 09:11:52 RST38h, can you elaborate please? Sep 13 09:11:55 RST38h, it shows time right next to the progress bar Sep 13 09:12:03 Lemme check Sep 13 09:12:14 You can see it right here: http://flickr.com/photos/generalantilles/2848217584/sizes/o/ Sep 13 09:12:15 MishaS: re-rated Sep 13 09:12:23 RST38h, you might need to enable it in options. Sep 13 09:12:25 jaffa: thank you Sep 13 09:12:32 FBReader should probably go into the Pearls now, too. Sep 13 09:12:35 MishaS: Ah! Checking. Sep 13 09:12:44 GA: Should be there already Sep 13 09:13:22 RST38h: shouldn't have been, cos that's a carrot of getting in extras Sep 13 09:13:30 yea, time is there! Sep 13 09:13:38 Jaffa: umgh Sep 13 09:13:53 * RST38h still does not understand obsession with extras and source packages there Sep 13 09:14:04 GeneralAntilles, it used to be there... i'm not sure what it means though :) Sep 13 09:14:05 What's not to understand? Sep 13 09:14:14 MishaS, https://wiki.maemo.org/Task:Remarkable_community_projects Sep 13 09:14:15 they are of course handy, but why take them so religiously? Sep 13 09:14:28 RST38h, package in extras means that the user can install it without any additional hassle Sep 13 09:14:33 The "obsession" about Extras is that it's installed on all devices by default. Source packages give us flexibility when a package author disappears (as has happened many times) Sep 13 09:14:41 MishaS: I have got a few packages in extras, I know Sep 13 09:14:56 One of the long-term goals is to have Extras ship enabled. Sep 13 09:15:03 Yea Sep 13 09:15:14 And it should have been done long time ago too Sep 13 09:15:26 Well, Nokia has its own ass to watch out for. Sep 13 09:15:37 Jaffa: This is only useful if there are people willing to maintain those packages Sep 13 09:16:00 Jaffa: My guess is that Nokia will end up hiring somebody specificially for package creation and maintenance Sep 13 09:16:04 RST38h: there've been a number of instances where someone published a binary package, without source and then never updated it. Sep 13 09:16:30 Jaffa: not a problem as far as I am concerned: if the author does not like his work, why should we use it? Sep 13 09:17:02 RST38h: because if it's a package like X-Chat, the work done in Hildonising it will have to be reinvented when someone wants to pick it up Sep 13 09:17:07 And if he does, he will take care of it Sep 13 09:17:22 Jaffa: True but such is life :) Sep 13 09:17:31 But not with source packages ;-) Sep 13 09:17:36 Isn't life about doing the same crap over and over again? =) Sep 13 09:18:35 RST38h, that's not very optimistic... but it tends to be true... :) Sep 13 09:18:36 Jaffa: Well, one concern I have is that Nokia will change APIs more drastically in the next 1-2 MaemoOS releases. Then having sources won't help unless there is someone willing to go through them Sep 13 09:19:40 old sources still make it easier to update things Sep 13 09:19:43 Example: sooner or later someone will have to take care of stupid hw keycode assignments Sep 13 09:20:12 mikkov: yea, but you won't get the "just a rebuild" advantage Sep 13 09:20:24 RST38h: Surely you can see that having some source for an earlier API is going to be easier to update, than one without? Even in terms of GUI customisations for the small screen etc. Sep 13 09:20:38 Jaffa: Yes, it will definitely help Sep 13 09:20:43 well, with sources available Nokia could invest a bit of time to see how compatible existing apps are with new APIs :) Sep 13 09:20:59 check binary compatibility is more difficult Sep 13 09:21:03 (checking) Sep 13 09:21:05 RST38h: No-one's claiming it'll always be a straight recompile - although for chinook->diablo, diablo Extras could be primed with source packages from chinook Extras Sep 13 09:21:13 Jaffa: but to be actually useful it requires a person willing to change it - this is very important and it is social not technical detail Sep 13 09:21:28 RST38h: and that helpeyness is why we like source packages Sep 13 09:21:29 * RST38h still using chinook rootstrap btw Sep 13 09:21:35 RST38h: yes, so what? we don't know when api breaks, and even if does, without old sources _everything_ has to be redone Sep 13 09:21:49 Hrm, is Downloads being funky with comments again? Sep 13 09:21:50 sb2 diablo rootstrap is broken Sep 13 09:21:55 RST38h: of course it still requires someone to pick it up if the original author goes away, but the barrier to entry for that person is dimisnhed Sep 13 09:23:22 I have been working to get leafpad and aisleriot from bora to chinook, and it is painful because old sources were not there Sep 13 09:23:31 ah to diablo Sep 13 09:23:56 Anyone knows where to report sb2 bugs? Sep 13 09:24:03 mikkov_, by the way, I installed Beneath a Steel Sky the other day. Sep 13 09:24:06 then you have to crawl around net to find the sources Sep 13 09:24:08 _Really_ slick. Sep 13 09:24:20 mikkov: google to the rescue =) Sep 13 09:24:37 :) Sep 13 09:24:41 RST38h, according to http://www.freedesktop.org/wiki/Software/sbox2, it's https://bugs.freedesktop.org/ Sep 13 09:25:28 GeneralAntilles: BASS is one of the finest adventure games, and it's free now ;) Sep 13 09:25:58 need to get that scummvm to diablo extras Sep 13 09:26:33 Hehe, time to get to bugging fanoush Sep 13 09:26:40 I'm a bit surprised it isn't already in there, actually. Sep 13 09:26:50 fanoush, already expressed his opinion in the ml Sep 13 09:26:54 actually i put to extras-devel Sep 13 09:26:57 s/, / / Sep 13 09:26:57 MishaS meant: fanoush already expressed his opinion in the ml Sep 13 09:27:07 Oh did he? Sep 13 09:27:26 yes, there are some problems with packaging and he does not want to spend his time on that Sep 13 09:27:39 he needs help Sep 13 09:27:45 scummvm is in extras devel with all features enabled, but fanoush wants to use tremor instead of vorbis Sep 13 09:27:45 mikkov_, sounds like an opportunity. :P Sep 13 09:28:14 and I can't get tremor to work at all Sep 13 09:28:37 fanoush was talking about special parameters for compilation, i think... Sep 13 09:28:48 related to code generation issues... Sep 13 09:29:00 MishaS: Weird... Sep 13 09:29:02 everything else is sorted out except tremor Sep 13 09:29:23 MishaS: I filed it at bugs.maemo.org, hopefully somebody will pick it up Sep 13 09:29:48 RST38h, the bug about?.. Sep 13 09:29:55 Whoever encountered this, please confirm: https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=3702 Sep 13 09:30:15 * MishaS . o O (or is it "a bug about?..) Sep 13 09:30:23 MishaS: their diablo rootstrap depends on a newer development version of libhildonfm2 that has not yet been distributed to the general userbase Sep 13 09:30:31 So whatever you build with it will not install Sep 13 09:30:57 wow! Sep 13 09:31:04 i'll check with suomya... :) Sep 13 09:31:44 And now, let us create timeless some work... Sep 13 09:32:06 RST38h, he does not need help with that... :) Sep 13 09:32:47 btw, did you get clock? Sep 13 09:34:03 mikkov_, how do you use items? Sep 13 09:34:30 GeneralAntilles: are you talking about BaSS? Sep 13 09:34:36 Yeah Sep 13 09:34:40 Stuck in the first room. Sep 13 09:34:46 Got the rung, can't use it on the door. Sep 13 09:34:53 select item, then use d-pad center Sep 13 09:35:20 How do you select items? Sep 13 09:35:21 mikkov_, http://www.gossamer-threads.com/lists/maemo/developers/38141#38141 Sep 13 09:35:41 click on the upper edge of the screen Sep 13 09:36:00 Aha! Sep 13 09:36:01 Thanks. Sep 13 09:36:15 MishaS: Yes, wonderful =) Sep 13 09:36:35 MishaS: He insists on keeping web browser in browserd Sep 13 09:36:45 MishaS: http://www.internettablettalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=23071&highlight=scummvm Sep 13 09:37:19 mikkov_, that thread was about problems that fanoush had... Sep 13 09:37:22 MishaS: Although this "solution" has been proved to cause major problems (hangups, memory leakage) and does not significantly improve microb startup time Sep 13 09:37:25 * MishaS checks the thread @ itt Sep 13 09:37:43 So I am gonna file several bugs for this Sep 13 09:37:51 my thread is about solving them ;) Sep 13 09:37:59 mikkov_, good :) Sep 13 09:38:13 RST38h, I don't think it's "his" decision. Sep 13 09:38:15 RST38h, i'm not sure that it's timeless who insists on that... :) Sep 13 09:38:29 RST38h, i'm quite sure that it's not him... :) Sep 13 09:39:10 as for this solution, looks like chrome -- google's browser -- is on the same path... Sep 13 09:40:08 GA: Then whoever made it has to be made aware of this Sep 13 09:40:29 MishaS: I do not care what browser is on the same path =) Sep 13 09:40:35 I doubt they're paying attention to Bugzilla. Sep 13 09:40:54 MishaS: but 30% of total RAM leaked via shared memory, hangups, and other stuff - I do care about Sep 13 09:41:09 It seems to me that the implementation isn't necessarily flawed, it's just new and buggy. Sep 13 09:41:12 GA: I will file 3 bugs and raise ruckus Sep 13 09:41:34 Try to keep it civil. Sep 13 09:41:50 Jaffa, the rest of the council is too slow on the uptake for my tastes. :P Sep 13 09:41:54 GA: it is flawed in a sense that you are keeping the main part of the browser (rendering engine), huge, potentially buggy piece of code, resident Sep 13 09:42:02 RST38h, i agree that leakages and stability are certainly of concern :) Sep 13 09:42:14 * RST38h promises not to call for torching of Nokia HQ Sep 13 09:42:30 RST38h, however i do not think that getting rid of browserd as such will help to deal with those issues :D Sep 13 09:42:39 MishaS: My guess is that you will never "fix" Gecko not to hang crash or leak Sep 13 09:43:07 I think the benefits will become more evidently when more stuff relies on browserd Sep 13 09:43:09 RST38h, _i_ certainly won't :D Sep 13 09:43:10 MishaS: So, it has to be kept in application where it is easier to kill and does not require shared memory Sep 13 09:43:24 MishaS: I meant it it in general sense :) Sep 13 09:43:41 GA: Benefits? 10-20% win in startup time Sep 13 09:43:59 GA: Measured and reluctantly accepted by timeless himself and another guy from Nokia (Roman) Sep 13 09:44:53 Ok, hangups: https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=3703 Sep 13 09:47:03 mikkov_, do you keep your changes in a vcs of any sort? Sep 13 09:48:17 MishaS: I usually try make my changes as patches to original source Sep 13 09:48:36 patches as distributed as part of the debian sources Sep 13 09:49:02 or in diff.gz Sep 13 09:49:06 mikkov_, i see. did you try those on top of 0.12? Sep 13 09:49:48 Memory leakage: https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=3704 Sep 13 09:50:09 ah, for scummvm changes are totally build related, patches are from fanoush. I didn't try 0.12, but there shouldn't be any problems Sep 13 09:50:30 RST38h, it would be more helpful if you specify the exact version from "about the device'... Sep 13 09:53:08 (provided the reaction on the bug is immediate, there are no problems, but if the reaction for any reason is not immediate, then... :)) Sep 13 09:53:52 RST38h, I'm going to start marking them INVALID if you don't start including the version. . . . ;) Sep 13 09:53:54 MishaS: it is the latest Diablo with the latest software update, trust me Sep 13 09:54:12 RST38h, yeah, what about in a month or so when the next SSU update comes? Sep 13 09:54:16 GA: my tablet is charging under the desk, please, save my spine =) Sep 13 09:54:17 It wont be the latest Diablo release then Sep 13 09:54:22 or a year down the road Sep 13 09:54:25 RST38h, it's not about trust :) it's about when people will start looking at the stuff. Sep 13 09:54:27 Ok, ok, will change Sep 13 09:54:27 4.2008.30-2 Sep 13 09:54:33 MishaS: oh Sep 13 09:54:34 Write it down on a post-it note or something. Sep 13 09:54:36 thanks Sep 13 09:54:43 Changing bugs Sep 13 09:54:50 Or just ask me whenever you file. :P Sep 13 09:54:57 ~latest Sep 13 09:54:57 methinks latest is :Sat May 12 03:07:00 2001 ?? Sep 13 09:55:05 ~maemo-version Sep 13 09:55:13 ~cool Sep 13 09:55:14 somebody said cool was there, there, everything is going to fix out Sep 13 09:55:14 ~maemo-version is 4.2008.30-2 Sep 13 09:55:15 okay, GeneralAntilles Sep 13 09:55:20 There, RST38h. ;) Sep 13 09:55:54 GA, how to get a list of what infobot does? Sep 13 09:56:24 MishaS, that's practically never an option with IRC bots. Sep 13 09:56:48 Mostly it does substitution. Sep 13 09:56:49 MishaS: query him with help Sep 13 09:56:55 s/it/the bot/ Sep 13 09:56:56 GeneralAntilles meant: Mostly the bot does substitution. Sep 13 09:57:07 and it has some binds for various useful stuff like Sep 13 09:57:09 ~boot-sd Sep 13 09:57:10 [boot-sd] https://wiki.maemo.org/Booting_from_a_flash_card Sep 13 09:57:12 ~flashing Sep 13 09:57:13 methinks flashing is http://wiki.maemo.org/Updating_the_tablet_firmware Sep 13 09:57:19 ~diablo-changelog Sep 13 09:57:22 well, diablo-changelog is Announcement: http://tinyurl.com/6k7q7q Version chart: http://tinyurl.com/5duv6t Bugzilla: http://tinyurl.com/68bffr Wikipedia: http://tinyurl.com/4wafha Sep 13 09:57:24 ~musthave Sep 13 09:57:25 [musthave] Maemo Mapper, FBReader, Vagalume, Canola, Numpty Physics, X-Chat, Evince, ScummVM, MyTube, MPlayer, Advanced Backlight, USBControl, Large Statusbar Clock, Transmission and much more. Also see http://wiki.maemo.org/Task:Remarkable_community_projects Sep 13 09:57:35 Then it dispenses insults Sep 13 09:57:36 ~lart jott Sep 13 09:57:36 * infobot keeps mailing jott free America Online CDs until he drowns Sep 13 09:57:46 ~kill GAN800 Sep 13 09:57:47 * infobot shoots a charged anti-meson gun at GAN800 Sep 13 09:57:52 ~slap infobot Sep 13 09:57:53 * infobot slaps infobot, keep your grubby fingers to yourself! Sep 13 09:58:28 There are probably a few more plugins, but that's what we use him for. Sep 13 10:00:47 Has anybody tried commenting on maemo downloads? because I think that it's broken again. Sep 13 10:01:05 well just query the bot and ask him for "help" to know :) Sep 13 10:01:13 ~ddesc hildon Sep 13 10:01:25 Debian Desc Search of 'hildon' (14 of 31): libhildonwm0 ;; libhildondesktop-dev ;; hildon-fm-l10n-engb ;; libhildonwm0-dbg ;; libhildonthumbnail0-dbg ;; hildon-desktop-dev ;; libhildonmime-dev ;; dates-hildon ;; libhildonwm-dev ;; libhildonthumbnail-dev ;; tasks-hildon ;; libhildonfm2 ;; hildon-update-category-database ;; libhildonmime0. Sep 13 10:01:44 mikkov_, I just tried to add a comment to FBReader without success. Sep 13 10:01:47 X-Fade! Sep 13 10:02:04 ~hex ELF Sep 13 10:02:04 ELF is 45 4C 46 Sep 13 10:02:27 jott: thank ou Sep 13 10:02:31 s/ou/you/ Sep 13 10:02:32 MishaS meant: jott: thank you Sep 13 10:03:18 GeneralAntilles: https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=3677 Sep 13 10:03:38 mikkov_, just confirming that my comment on FBReader still isn't there, then I'll reopen Sep 13 10:04:10 I got two emails that my apps were commented but comments didn't show up in web page Sep 13 10:04:12 reopenend Sep 13 10:04:24 maybe mgedmin will find some time to make povbot usable.. would be nice to have something like ~extras to search for packages in extras :) Sep 13 10:04:25 mikkov_, might want to make a note of that in the bug. Sep 13 10:04:34 will do Sep 13 10:04:38 jott, https://wiki.maemo.org/Task:maemo.org_IRC_feeds Sep 13 10:04:48 * MishaS is gone for now... Sep 13 10:04:50 see you Sep 13 10:05:26 Ok, overall browserd bug report: https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=3705 Sep 13 10:05:28 If somebody has a working supybot it shouldn't be hard to add the bugzila plugin. Sep 13 10:05:44 well.. povbot is a supybot.. Sep 13 10:05:45 RST38h, don't file reports like that. <_< Sep 13 10:05:57 !version Sep 13 10:05:57 One report per issue. Sep 13 10:05:59 jott: The current (running) version of this Supybot is 0.83.1+darcs. The newest version available online is 0.83.3. Sep 13 10:06:39 Bugzilla isn't a good place for ultimatums Sep 13 10:07:04 GA: "keworking browserd" is a single issue Sep 13 10:07:11 and no ultimatum either Sep 13 10:07:23 * RST38h waited with this report for a month or two, too Sep 13 10:07:34 "and Better Be Keworked" Sep 13 10:07:40 sounds like an ultimatum to me Sep 13 10:08:44 Last time I checked, it could be killed from xterm on a stock tablet. Sep 13 10:08:46 "be killed using 3rd party tools (CPU load applet, etc)" Sep 13 10:08:56 Anyway, whatever. Sep 13 10:09:02 * GeneralAntilles will let andre deal with it. Sep 13 10:10:16 GA: Yes, you can do ps + kill Sep 13 10:10:58 GA: But how many normal users will do that? From newbie point of view, this will reuire a reboot =9 Sep 13 10:11:25 And I did spend time choosing the right word before coming up with "kework" Sep 13 10:13:36 Generally when somebody as "and it better be . . . " there's an implied " . . . or else" after it. Sep 13 10:14:02 not really Sep 13 10:14:15 but in some contexts, yes Sep 13 10:15:29 Yes really. Sep 13 10:15:43 You'd be much better of with "should be" or "needs to be" Sep 13 10:18:37 does not sound that much better =( Sep 13 10:22:48 GA: check it out now :) Sep 13 10:23:42 <_< Sep 13 10:23:51 Better Sep 13 10:25:20 Just, fyi, bug summaries are typically sentence case rather than title case. Sep 13 10:28:30 Yes, but it is a habit. I even started to capitalize words in Russian titles Sep 13 10:28:59 Although it is not required by the language (they use quotes) Sep 13 10:30:02 It's not really an issue, I'm just spastic about consistency Sep 13 10:30:08 so you'll know why I change it if I do. ;) Sep 13 10:30:57 yea, no complaint from me on this Sep 13 10:41:29 btw, using framebuffer with VGBA speeds it up to 20-25fps, full screen =) Sep 13 10:56:29 hello :) Sep 13 10:56:39 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h24f2YjzWBE <- Deblet Rescue Menu (.. yes, sorry, more deblet brag :P) Sep 13 10:56:47 anyone know why pidgin crashed on login on my 770 w/OS2007HE? Sep 13 10:56:51 *chashes Sep 13 10:56:57 *Crashes Sep 13 10:57:08 is this a known problem? Sep 13 10:57:30 770 - no idea Sep 13 10:57:36 i've tried latest and the previous one Sep 13 10:58:02 is there some way to get a log? Sep 13 10:58:07 Sts: change font! =) Sep 13 10:58:16 RST38h: text2screen Sep 13 10:58:17 :P Sep 13 10:58:17 "Internal Error" isn't very helpful... Sep 13 10:58:52 Don't hide previous icons, display them in a row =) Sep 13 10:59:10 RST38h: would just take hacking fb-progress really :P Sep 13 10:59:23 guess so... Sep 13 10:59:38 * RST38h has been in fb-progress tonight Sep 13 10:59:44 looking for how they use fb0 Sep 13 11:01:28 RST38h: my "idea" is having an initfs that does boot menus in similar fashion.. isn't impossible at all, but icons might be a bit big :P Sep 13 11:03:59 does anyone here use OS2007HE? Sep 13 11:08:50 Does anyone else get the feeling there's a whole lot of new 770 users showing up? Sep 13 11:09:23 Seem to be Sep 13 11:09:35 crashanddie: going down the foodchain to family members and stuff prolly Sep 13 11:09:38 and on ebay Sep 13 11:09:47 OS2007 Helium Edition - audio output is always high pitched Sep 13 11:09:55 I thought they had died off, like Dinosaurs, a myth only some of us had faintly heard about Sep 13 11:10:26 crashanddie: i've given a hacker friend a 770 in birthday present, hope that'll give a good deblet port for it :P Sep 13 11:11:11 i bought it for £40 on amazon... Sep 13 11:11:13 Stskeeps, you're going to have to diversify your array of discussion subjects if you want to remain popular :P Sep 13 11:11:24 oh wow, £40? Sep 13 11:11:28 yep :D Sep 13 11:11:37 crashanddie: i talk too much about deblet, i know :P Sep 13 11:11:59 * GeneralAntilles hands Stskeeps some notecards on "Nokia not being involved in Bugzilla". Sep 13 11:12:07 it's working great except for pidgin or gaim... Sep 13 11:12:08 hehe Sep 13 11:12:38 i even got skype to sort of work Sep 13 11:12:41 :P Sep 13 11:12:46 GeneralAntilles: ten bucks it's because they have some internal bug system and they don't want to view two Sep 13 11:13:00 Stskeeps, that's part of the problem, yes. Sep 13 11:13:17 Half of poor andre's job is syncing the two by hand. <_< Sep 13 11:13:19 bonjour chat works in a sense Sep 13 11:13:55 if you start the chat from another machine (iChat on my MacBook) then it works fine, but if the 770 starts the chat it crashes when you send messages Sep 13 11:13:57 GeneralAntilles: imho the bugzilla shouldn't have been started at all and they should have made patches to publish the external one instead Sep 13 11:14:00 like a OSS project Sep 13 11:14:16 er, internal one Sep 13 11:14:46 The long-term goal at the moment is to banish all of the open source projects from the internal tracker. Sep 13 11:14:48 "look, you can submit bugs here but we won't view it until the community rebels" Sep 13 11:14:49 :P Sep 13 11:15:26 GeneralAntilles: a system with all components and public/private bugs/comments is a lot better Sep 13 11:15:45 so the bug reporting is more open as well Sep 13 11:16:16 Can't safely publish the internal bug tracker Sep 13 11:16:34 It is bound to leak some internal details that would be deemed sensitive Sep 13 11:17:03 prolly, but the benefit of community bug reporting may weigh more :P Sep 13 11:17:19 Probably not a lot but enough for a genuinely interested gentlemen paid to do this kind of stuff Sep 13 11:19:05 * Stskeeps wonders if dropbox will succumb to the demands of an armel port Sep 13 11:19:14 people are very interested to get it on slugs and tablets Sep 13 11:19:25 lcuk: 20-25fps full screen, running VGBA at 720x480 Sep 13 11:19:41 what IS dropbox? Sep 13 11:19:42 nice! does arbitary scaling work in rgb then? Sep 13 11:19:48 lcuk: seems so Sep 13 11:19:52 even nicer Sep 13 11:20:00 wonder why it wasnt implimented anywhere else Sep 13 11:20:01 RST38h: RST38h http://www.getdropbox.com/ Sep 13 11:20:04 hows the tearing Sep 13 11:20:07 I am now thinking of using it when in window mode as well Sep 13 11:20:08 http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41t52ZS9heL._SS500_.jpg Sep 13 11:20:13 this is actually pretty good looking Sep 13 11:20:14 right now it is not Sep 13 11:20:25 RST38h, this version in Extras? Sep 13 11:20:27 are you not updating the fullscreen? Sep 13 11:20:29 but I am considering getting rid of vsync and tearing to make it run faster Sep 13 11:20:33 GA: not yet Sep 13 11:20:49 GA: highly experimental but will filter into all of my emulators Sep 13 11:21:16 Hehe, was just about to push me over the edge into putting the effort into getting it installed and moving some ROMs over. :P Sep 13 11:21:23 * lcuk understands experimental Sep 13 11:21:32 lcuk: I am using hw scaler when in full screen mode but not in windowed mode Sep 13 11:21:48 lcuk: as to doing 720 instead of 800, it is mainly to keep aspect right Sep 13 11:22:04 gah! ive got my 810 set to stay bright when charging - however if it was powered off and its turned on with the charger in it still does screen blanking Sep 13 11:22:31 GA: Install the current version - it is not a speed demon but not bad either Sep 13 11:23:01 RST38h, whats the native resolution you are drawing at? Sep 13 11:23:12 cos gba isnt 720*480 is it? Sep 13 11:23:21 Haha Sep 13 11:23:30 lcuk: 240x160 Sep 13 11:23:33 lcuk, yeah I think I noticed something alike Sep 13 11:24:34 Anybody make the Wiimote stuff more straightforward yet? Sep 13 11:25:28 crashanddie, its about the 4th time ive noticed, its not a big deal, but last time i popped the charger and before i got it back in it shutdown \@/ Sep 13 11:25:42 I think there's a bug for it. Sep 13 11:25:49 Not sure if it was ever confirmed. Sep 13 11:26:08 https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=3300 Sep 13 11:26:10 Vote. Sep 13 11:26:17 lcuk, I want to buy a cheap desktop, know where? Sep 13 11:26:17 * lcuk coughs Sep 13 11:26:26 ikea? Sep 13 11:27:19 RST38h, why "Other" and not "Games"? Sep 13 11:27:24 everywhere Sep 13 11:28:17 GA: Is VGBA still in Other? Sep 13 11:28:35 Looks like it Sep 13 11:28:40 RST38h, at 480*320 (doubled your native to get required color plane resolution) and rendering fullscreen scaled bitmaps gives 43fps. the actual do not a lot framerate is 66fps Sep 13 11:29:15 lcuk: well, I have to do quite a bit more than just blitting it ;) Sep 13 11:29:16 As is colem Sep 13 11:29:26 lcuk, is 80 quid cheap for a desktop then? Sep 13 11:29:33 Downloads shows them in Games Sep 13 11:29:46 no i know - im merely pointing out what the display is capable of Sep 13 11:29:52 Ah, I guess they are marked as Other inside .deb packages Sep 13 11:29:56 This'd be the .deb section Sep 13 11:29:57 yeah Sep 13 11:30:11 I clones those from fMSX .deb Sep 13 11:30:15 s/clones/cloned/ Sep 13 11:30:15 RST38h meant: I cloned those from fMSX .deb Sep 13 11:30:19 heh, if i use 320*160 greyscale+halfres color i get 250fps! Sep 13 11:30:26 heheh Sep 13 11:30:49 you probably know that an LCD display normally updates at 50-120fps ;) Sep 13 11:31:05 no, im still living in a crt dominated world Sep 13 11:31:38 * lcuk gets back to reality and carries on with stuff - ill bebasically afk for most of this weekend Sep 13 11:32:08 doesn't a, say, 5ms refresh mean an lcd can do 200fps? Sep 13 11:32:37 it may Sep 13 11:32:45 if you manage to update it at this rate Sep 13 11:32:47 it doesnt mean you cant send data to it quicker Sep 13 11:32:52 it just means it wont respond in time Sep 13 11:34:27 btw, 5ms LCD panel is probably bogus Sep 13 11:34:43 They have not measured the complete change fromblack to white Sep 13 11:35:23 GA: Fixed categories, next releases will go into games Sep 13 11:37:14 Thanks! Sep 13 11:38:31 GeneralAntilles: heh, I know what you mean. Busy weekend for everyone, though Sep 13 11:39:00 Damn, RST38h, color me impressed. Sep 13 11:41:37 ? Sep 13 11:42:09 Messing with VGBA Sep 13 11:43:26 ah Sep 13 11:43:45 Is there a keymap somewhere? Sep 13 11:43:58 Yea, just read VGBA.html Sep 13 11:44:08 Keys work generally the same way everywhere Sep 13 13:03:35 * Stskeeps ponders idly Sep 13 13:03:51 did anyone notice there's an xorg server in http://repository.maemo.org/pool/maemo4.1/free/x/xorg-server/? Sep 13 13:04:08 Fremantle is moving to X.org Sep 13 13:04:32 yeah, i know, just thought that the xorg wasn't published yet Sep 13 13:09:19 lol:http://kuvaton.com/kuvei/hockey_fan.jpg Sep 13 13:10:57 ghehe Sep 13 13:15:18 GeneralAntilles: okay, either i'm seeing things or i've been running with xorg since i installed rotation support :P Sep 13 13:15:36 Gotta be seeing things. Sep 13 13:15:50 That'd totally creep me out. Sep 13 13:18:34 well, http://sse2.net/rotate/ , look at the version number of xorg-server, and strings of my installed Xomap says type='method_call',interface='org.x.config.input' Sep 13 13:19:12 it's kdrive, yes, but it's built off the source from xorg distribution Sep 13 13:19:13 :P Sep 13 13:20:52 maybe their intention is to run some non-tinyx thing, i dunno Sep 13 13:22:59 afternoon qwerty12_N800 Sep 13 13:23:10 hi Stskeeps Sep 13 13:24:19 The N800 isn't actually a bad device for hacking networks with wep Sep 13 13:25:15 qwerty12_N800, you have a kismet version, don't you? Sep 13 13:25:59 qwerty12_N800: on holidays or field trip and hacking inet access? :P Sep 13 13:26:48 crashanddie: it isn't mine, kismet authors upstream fixed nokia oddities and tz1 on itt made some more fixes and provided a deb. i left kismet running for 24 hours fine Sep 13 13:26:59 qwerty12_N800, link? Sep 13 13:27:10 Stskeeps: :p, i'm changing provider so... Sep 13 13:28:23 qwerty12_N800: are you youtubeable? Sep 13 13:28:32 crashanddie: http://www.internettablettalk.com/forums/showthread.php?p=190941 , find tz1's kismet deb and install my version of aircrack Sep 13 13:28:39 Stskeeps: no idea Sep 13 13:29:04 qwerty12_N800: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h24f2YjzWBE if you are, - played a bit around with fb-progress and text2screen Sep 13 13:29:18 crashanddie: 24 hours of dumping packets and 1m 30secs cracking the key with aircrack Sep 13 13:29:44 Stskeeps: cool, i'll hopefully be able to see :) Sep 13 13:31:17 Stskeeps: looks like i am, VERY nice work :) Sep 13 13:31:46 qwerty12_N800: it's just a shellscript really and pngs.. didn't include it in my linuxrc just yet Sep 13 13:33:10 wtf is wrong with the debian mirrors today, my debootstrap keeps on failing Sep 13 13:33:16 Stskeeps, turn it into a scrolling menu? Sep 13 13:33:50 GeneralAntilles: hm? if i get fb-progress to paint 3 diff pngs on same screen, sure Sep 13 13:34:57 I'm just thinking it'd be easier to see the available options if they're all right in front of you. Sep 13 13:35:02 qwerty12_N800, ncurses-base :'( Sep 13 13:35:20 crashanddie: add sdk repo and apt-get it Sep 13 13:35:29 k Sep 13 13:35:40 GeneralAntilles: yeah, i agree - for now it's just a fun prototype :) Sep 13 13:35:59 jott: my kernel package is the exact same as the nokia one but with the zimage replaced :) Sep 13 13:36:16 Nokia's got some sort of recovery mode, too. Sep 13 13:37:22 jott: but i see what you mean about the software version stuff...I warned that would happen and did post an update when nokia finally released sources Sep 13 13:38:09 qwerty12_N800: ah did not realize they actually released the sources. Sep 13 13:40:18 qwerty12_N800: have you run a diff between the versions? Sep 13 13:40:59 jott: no, but nokia included a changelog Sep 13 13:44:27 question: does life scroll up or down? do i put my newest media at the bottom of a list and let it scroll upwards - like the irc channel (thats for later), or newest at the top of the page and scroll down to older? Sep 13 13:51:51 life apparantly stops heh Sep 13 13:52:06 lcuk_busy: depends on the content i would say :) Sep 13 13:52:22 im thinking for graffiti live scrolling view Sep 13 13:52:58 im about () this close to allowing text notes (tweets ;)) and they should flow like scrollback Sep 13 13:53:36 otherwise its juddery if you add a group of lines - the order of them is thrown out if shown in reverse order Sep 13 13:53:50 juddery? Sep 13 13:54:07 qwerty12_N800: so nothing relevant changed? :P Sep 13 13:54:13 in your mind reading the latest before what was written before Sep 13 13:54:28 imagine the irc chan flowing backwards Sep 13 13:55:13 qwerty12_N800: i gather this "WiWLAN" has to do with wimax? Sep 13 13:55:39 jott: nope :p. just some wimax driver source released. i keep shoving your rotation patch in each ssu updated kernel to keep the punters happy :) Sep 13 13:55:43 jott: yeah Sep 13 13:56:42 qwerty12_N800, where does kismet store the network dumps? Sep 13 13:58:07 crashanddie: /media/mmc1/kismet by default i think. I think you edit /etc/kismet/kismet.conf to change location Sep 13 13:58:31 http://www.flickr.com/photos/yorkie/2370080030/sizes/o/ my god this makes me hungry Sep 13 13:58:45 * qwerty12_N800 should update that aircrack compile later Sep 13 14:00:07 qwerty12_N800, can't find anything called media in conf file Sep 13 14:00:14 qwerty12_N800, is it the "fifo" line? Sep 13 14:01:47 crashanddie: no idea, logtemplate has a media string in it, wait, i'll grep my entire kismet folder Sep 13 14:02:08 thanks Sep 13 14:02:44 crashanddie: just checked, only logtemplate matches Sep 13 14:03:08 # Uptime | System Boot up Sep 13 14:03:17 1 0 days, 22:32:20 | Linux 2.6.21-omap1 Fri Sep 12 15:26:59 2008 Sep 13 14:03:50 * qwerty12_N800 has to beat 22 hours on his tablet Sep 13 14:04:22 My 770 usually has crazy uptime Sep 13 14:04:45 Since it's tethered to the wall all the time and only leaves when I go on vacation. Sep 13 14:09:42 Heh, usually i switch off the N800 or remove the battery due to it crashing. y/day was a special exception due to kismet doing its stuff Sep 13 14:11:06 * qwerty12_N800 hates compiling for my router more than i do the initfs Sep 13 14:11:43 qwerty12_N800: i'm making deblet more debian friendly.. with dpkg-buildpackage and all that shit. -that- is a shitty job Sep 13 14:11:46 :P Sep 13 14:12:32 but i'm amazed with how much OS2008 stuff that's actually OSS these days Sep 13 14:12:49 :p, you finally gave in to the powers that be debian/rules etc then :p Sep 13 14:13:19 well i'm switching to only a tablet non-free repository on the tablet itself, and an apt repository Sep 13 14:14:06 hola Sep 13 14:14:09 and generally cleaning up the packages Sep 13 14:15:56 Stskeeps: i have to run a httpd on my computer to test out binaries on the router because the dropbear implementation it comes with is retarded :p Sep 13 14:16:12 hehe Sep 13 14:16:25 qwerty12_N800: http://trac.tspre.org/projects/deblet/browser/trunk/packages work so far Sep 13 14:19:02 Stskeeps: sounds like you have made a lot of changes,would upgrade_deblet update my currently installed deblet? Sep 13 14:19:21 qwerty12_N800: right now upgrade_deblet will break - when i'm done it will Sep 13 14:19:29 it won't trash the tablet, just not upgrade properly :P Sep 13 14:19:37 k, thanks Sep 13 14:20:15 this will make new updates to the system -much- easier, as it's very little we have to update the non-free packages Sep 13 14:25:47 RST38h: around? Sep 13 14:29:36 Stskeeps: btw, keeping framebuffer in auto slows down time to "draw" to the screen which may explain why you got faster results when using a splash Sep 13 14:32:27 * Jaffa 's maemo.org presentation template sample: http://bleb.org/software/maemo/mud-builder.pdf Sep 13 14:33:44 Jaffa, does mud-builder use nerual networks for something?-) Sep 13 14:34:09 'sposed to show community stuff Sep 13 14:34:30 The white background on the title text is a little weird Sep 13 14:34:35 Trawling through sxc.hu to find a suitable image which isn't too corporate is a little tedious Sep 13 14:34:45 GeneralAntilles: it's slightly transparent, not sure I like it yet Sep 13 14:34:55 I'd go more transparent. Sep 13 14:35:05 and bump up the top padding on both lines. Sep 13 14:35:28 Maybe bump the type size a bit. Sep 13 14:48:31 if you use the garnet VM, where are the storage files kept? Sep 13 14:48:57 i'd like to shove it on my MMC and symlink to it (to save space on internal) Sep 13 14:49:20 ~/.gvm i'd guess Sep 13 15:05:18 http://www.flickr.com/photos/yorkie/2370080030/sizes/o/ my god this makes me hungry Sep 13 15:05:21 shit Sep 13 15:05:42 ~seen brontide Sep 13 15:05:47 ~seen snowmoon-work Sep 13 15:05:47 brontide was last seen on IRC in channel #maemo, 23h 3m 55s ago, saying: 'engrish is always good for a laugh'. Sep 13 15:05:47 snowmoon-work was last seen on IRC in channel #maemo, 2d 1h 17m 25s ago, saying: 'Doh'. Sep 13 15:07:09 lcuk_busy's uh fatty Sep 13 15:07:23 * GeneralAntilles just ate a giant burger Sep 13 15:07:27 * GeneralAntilles is not hungry. Sep 13 15:07:31 i drooled Sep 13 15:07:41 and i also didnt mean to repaste that Sep 13 15:07:53 i alt tabbed and tried to build Sep 13 15:07:58 lol Sep 13 15:08:02 * lcuk_busy is really busy Sep 13 15:08:09 Clearly Sep 13 15:08:13 i dont think my fingers have ever coded so much Sep 13 15:17:04 * Jaffa remembers to download the German maps for Maps Sep 13 15:17:32 ~lart busybox for not having a groups module Sep 13 15:17:33 * infobot makes a balloon animal out of busybox for not having a groups module Sep 13 15:25:40 qwerty12: it was just dsp headers missing to be able to build osso-esd, right? Sep 13 15:25:46 Stskeeps: yep Sep 13 15:26:25 k Sep 13 15:26:43 my goal is being able to dpkg-buildpackage most stuff so i cant go the easy way :P Sep 13 15:27:03 hehe Sep 13 15:27:15 * qwerty12 hates cc'ing for mips Sep 13 15:28:01 let's just say i don't look forward to compiling xserver-omap ;) Sep 13 15:28:15 or kernel headers for that sake.. Sep 13 15:28:39 Meh, xomap doesn't take long :). I did it once to put rodrigo's xrandr patch into the xserver for diablo Sep 13 15:29:44 * qwerty12 screams as he discovers groups is a script in this old coreutils >.< Sep 13 15:30:58 crazy question, but how do you re-assign applications to different folders on OS2007? Sep 13 15:31:12 because my Extras folder seems to have everything in it :P Sep 13 15:31:23 i'm sure i saw an option to move things before Sep 13 15:31:29 but i don't remember where Sep 13 15:31:51 Control Panel > Panels, Organise. For Os2008 anyway. Sep 13 15:31:56 Tasks or something in Control Panel Sep 13 15:31:59 It's near the bottom Sep 13 15:32:24 Maybe Organize Sep 13 15:32:26 I don't remember Sep 13 15:33:01 navigation Sep 13 15:33:05 then organise :S Sep 13 15:33:09 thanks :) Sep 13 15:50:29 Ok, getting rid of tearsync/vsync Sep 13 15:50:50 runs faster this way and I hope most users will tolerate some tearing in games Sep 13 15:59:14 RST38h, you're citing me in a discussion with me. :P Sep 13 16:00:14 GA: I know, but it is because you are nicely contradicting yoursel f=) Sep 13 16:00:33 Anyways, anybody knows what OMAPFB_TEARSYNC and OMAPFB_FORCE_VSYNC really do? Sep 13 16:01:19 It's less exciting than it sounds. Sep 13 16:01:26 I'm well aware of the distinction Sep 13 16:01:40 and it's only because the community has adopted MicroB as the generic name for the browser Sep 13 16:02:02 Because "Mozilla based browser for maemo" just doesn't have a great ring Sep 13 16:02:16 But MicroB is most definitely the engine Sep 13 16:02:27 It can be the engine or the whole browser Sep 13 16:02:31 but never the front-end. Sep 13 16:02:38 Mmm...maybe Sep 13 16:02:53 But then the whole thing becomes even more diabolic Sep 13 16:02:56 No, truthfully Sep 13 16:03:58 diabolic or daemonic? Sep 13 16:04:13 RST38h, make it an option? Sep 13 16:04:41 oh dear Sep 13 16:04:57 now i have a folder on my mmc called .gvm which i can't delete Sep 13 16:05:00 even as root.. Sep 13 16:05:08 it says "read-only filesystem" Sep 13 16:05:27 whereas mount tells me it's rw Sep 13 16:05:38 Card is probably corrupt Sep 13 16:05:47 :( Sep 13 16:06:11 fsck it Sep 13 16:06:16 mount is busybox, it probably lies Sep 13 16:06:20 'Cause it means Nokia has put the whole browser into a daemon :) Sep 13 16:06:32 lcuk: that is my suggestion Sep 13 16:06:59 ...and expects it to work whichnobody has expected from web browsers for years now Sep 13 16:07:08 RST38h: Voted on 3705. I'm pretty indifferent on the other bugs. Sep 13 16:07:16 ~ $ cat /proc/mounts Sep 13 16:07:17 rootfs / rootfs rw 0 0 Sep 13 16:07:24 ~ $ mount Sep 13 16:07:26 rootfs on / type rootfs (rw) Sep 13 16:07:34 er Sep 13 16:07:38 oops Sep 13 16:07:40 apt-get install mount-full (in extras I think) Sep 13 16:07:50 then you can have the proper mount by running mount.full Sep 13 16:08:01 * sp3000 can't keep track of lines, pastes random things Sep 13 16:08:42 qwerty: Other bugs are the basis for 3705 Sep 13 16:08:43 RST38h, browser is not a daemon. <_< Sep 13 16:08:54 GA: In diablo, it is Sep 13 16:09:01 oh, i rebooted and it's deleted now Sep 13 16:09:03 No, the application is not a daemon. Sep 13 16:09:09 i think i'll just use the internal store :P Sep 13 16:09:16 ps ax | grep browser Sep 13 16:09:46 GA: browser = page loader+ renderer + ks Sep 13 16:09:52 GA: all three are in browserd Sep 13 16:10:00 aladds: ga is probably right though, the card would tend to end up ro when something gits fs corruption Sep 13 16:10:07 s/gits/hits/ Sep 13 16:10:07 sp3000 meant: aladds: ga is probably right though, the card would tend to end up ro when something hits fs corruption Sep 13 16:10:14 die bot die Sep 13 16:10:15 ro is 99% certain card corruption Sep 13 16:10:53 * qwerty12 hopes BBC stream the real hustle Sep 13 16:12:44 RST38h: I don't use livejournal, but I guess the other bug has meaning Sep 13 16:15:02 \\ Sep 13 16:15:09 qw Sep 13 16:15:20 qwerty: I don't think it is limited to lj Sep 13 16:15:38 looks like some css or js bug Sep 13 16:17:20 God knows what it is... Talking about the browser, has anyone tried compiling the MicroB svn? Sep 13 16:17:33 Not lately Sep 13 16:17:43 Not since pre-30-2 Sep 13 16:18:27 Hmm, I want to try it but at the same time, I'm reluctant. Last time, I had a ~5 hour compile and packages that killed browserd :/ Sep 13 16:18:50 Do it again! Sep 13 16:19:17 Maybe after taking prozac :P Sep 13 16:21:00 * Jaffa tries to arrange arrive-in-Berlin drinks. Baloo looks like a likely candidate atm ;-) Sep 13 16:22:21 Yes, please, kill browserd again, now in especially perverse manner Sep 13 16:22:28 While we watch. Sep 13 16:24:41 lj isn't hurting me Sep 13 16:24:55 well, me, maybe, browser*, no Sep 13 16:25:03 I was gonna say. . . . Sep 13 16:25:11 lj _always_ hurts me. Sep 13 16:25:50 RST38h, did you ever CC Eero on the memory consumption bug? Sep 13 16:28:00 even fitwidth didn't break it Sep 13 16:28:27 Anyone here has experience with dropbear? Sep 13 16:29:08 Back in the 770 days. Sep 13 16:30:24 I need to recompile it with scp & sftp support but the config.h is throwing me off :/ Sep 13 16:30:24 GA: Not yet, just filed a bug Sep 13 16:30:34 GA: Hopefully he sees it Sep 13 16:31:01 Just drop his name in the cc field. Sep 13 16:31:02 timeless says it comes from shared memory chunks being left in memory but blaims it on SYSV SHM API Sep 13 16:31:16 eero@nokia.com? Sep 13 16:32:01 just 'eero' should do it. Sep 13 16:32:44 no exact match. Sep 13 16:33:28 I added him. ;) Sep 13 16:35:56 Thanks! Sep 13 16:59:37 ukmp is not for os2008? Sep 13 16:59:56 oilinki3: use MediaBox instead Sep 13 17:00:05 qwerty13: something you'd prolly enjoy.. just coded ability to dl a first stage debootstrap tar.gz :P Sep 13 17:00:11 Jaffa: same thing with different name? Sep 13 17:00:27 oilinki3: No, similar thing, but better and under active development Sep 13 17:00:59 Jaffa: let me check it out. this is for wife who likes the scrolling albumlist Sep 13 17:01:01 Stskeeps: Hehe, maybe I won't have to install nit-env-gnome-basic a 1000 times :P Sep 13 17:01:35 qwerty13: didn't say anything about apt ;) Sep 13 17:01:38 (yet) Sep 13 17:01:46 i guess it would be possible to make a apt-get -d thing Sep 13 17:01:55 that simply injects it into var/cache/apt Sep 13 17:02:20 * qwerty13 hopes this new dropbear binary runs on my router. I'm actually finding normal CC'ing easier than scratchbox. Sep 13 17:18:22 Hey Sep 13 17:19:48 hey wouldn't it possible using hildon ui tools to redesign the layout of a theme to make it look good rotated Sep 13 17:20:42 It's not the theme Sep 13 17:20:49 It's the engine. Sep 13 17:21:56 ok I wasn't sure I was reading that the theme layout (not the look of it but the placement of things would be changed) Sep 13 18:05:50 http://www.flickr.com/photos/qole2/2853096131/ <- woo Sep 13 18:07:02 Cool Sep 13 18:07:36 Ahaha Sep 13 18:07:48 The spacebar cracks me up Sep 13 18:07:50 tell me if this isn't the appropriate place to ask this, but i haven't been able to update/install anything on my n800 lately. i'm missing /var/lib/apt/lists.new (i have a lists.old), and i'm not sure how to fix that Sep 13 18:08:31 GAN800: weirdest bug ever Sep 13 18:09:24 It slays me, though. Sep 13 18:10:01 cmatheson: why not add repositories from scratch using app manager? Sep 13 18:10:14 Which spacebar bug? Sep 13 18:10:42 RST38h: hmm, i've tried adding repos, but it fails--should that regenerate them? Sep 13 18:10:48 RST38h: look at photo Sep 13 18:11:12 cmatheson: second guess: cp lists.old lists.new Sep 13 18:11:39 RST38h: that's what i was thinking too, but i can't figure out how to become root (it seems fairly involved, from what i was able to glean from the wiki) Sep 13 18:11:40 stskeeps: I think it is trying to tell you something Sep 13 18:11:56 stskeeps: Maybe it wants blood... or animal guts as a sacrifice... Sep 13 18:12:12 cmatheson: have you got sshd installed? Sep 13 18:12:16 ~root-access Sep 13 18:12:16 hmm... root-access is http://wiki.maemo.org/Root_access Sep 13 18:12:24 RST38h: no :(, i was hoping to install that when i noticed that i can't install anything Sep 13 18:12:27 How in the world is that involved? Sep 13 18:12:35 GA: he can't install stuff Sep 13 18:12:42 otherwise it would be easier Sep 13 18:13:45 R&D mode is the only realistic way, perhaps Sep 13 18:15:04 cmatheson: worst case scenario: you have to reflash Sep 13 18:17:33 RST38h: ok, i think i'll just do that, thanks for the help Sep 13 18:17:48 sorry for not being able to figure out something more graceful Sep 13 18:19:06 that's cool, reflashing isn't a big deal--i just thought i'd check if there was another way Sep 13 18:35:44 http://gizmodo.com/assets/images/gizmodo/2008/09/blade_873392i.jpg Sep 13 18:35:58 "As you can see in the "Blade" vehicle above, efficiency is improved with the wind turbine that designer Ying Hui Choo added to charge an on-board electric battery." Sep 13 18:37:49 Is lack of clue necessary for a designer? Sep 13 18:38:21 The engine's conversion efficiency might just be really bad. Sep 13 18:39:14 yes, but how would a wind turbine help? =) Sep 13 18:39:16 Maybe it's expected that you leave it lying around some Dutch hills overnight Sep 13 18:39:35 yea, in blades-up position =) Sep 13 18:39:49 could be fart powered Sep 13 19:27:42 do i remember wrong or is there something that takes a dpkg-buildpackage'able directory and gets the build dependancies through apt? (apt-get build-dep doesn't count. it needs an existing .dsc) Sep 13 19:31:02 Stskeeps: http://wiki.maemo.org/Uploading_to_Extras is where I put a reference to dpkg-checkdeps Sep 13 19:35:54 excellent :) Sep 13 19:48:29 Oh, that's fantastic. Sep 13 19:48:39 The following line segfaults with -Os: Sep 13 19:48:44 if(_text[i]>=0x80&&_text[i]<0xA0)return 0; Sep 13 19:48:58 If I replace them with: Sep 13 19:49:00 if(_text[i]>=0x80){ Sep 13 19:49:00 if(_text[i]<0xA0){ Sep 13 19:49:00 return 0; Sep 13 19:49:00 } Sep 13 19:49:00 } Sep 13 19:49:03 It works fine. Sep 13 19:49:06 Eesh Sep 13 19:50:32 Arm only, works fine on x86. Sep 13 19:50:48 GCC in buggy compiler shocker. Sep 13 19:51:18 yeah... Sep 13 19:51:19 I'm sure it's fixed in one of the 8 versions of gcc released after the one we have in scratchbox. Sep 13 19:51:20 especially gcc 3.4.4 Sep 13 19:51:28 i'm shocked, really shocked i tell ya Sep 13 19:53:04 internal compiler errors are a daily joy with the sbox gcc 3.4.4 too... Sep 13 19:53:57 For convenience, I also get different behavior if I pass -g or not. Sep 13 19:54:52 it's relatively stable with -O0 :) Sep 13 19:55:26 It's relatively stable if I don't run it, too. Sep 13 19:55:38 even more then. Sep 13 19:55:42 And about as useful. Sep 13 19:55:47 even more then. Sep 13 19:55:49 :) Sep 13 19:58:23 and remember, "Just because it's valid C doesn't mean gcc will compile it", gcc developer quoted from memory :) Sep 13 19:58:44 I mean, that is not a complicatd construct. Sep 13 19:59:39 ShadowJK: nice Sep 13 20:02:49 derf, i gather it works fine when you run without optimizations Sep 13 20:05:39 lcuk_busy: Yes. Sep 13 20:05:43 I give up. Sep 13 20:05:59 If I add a printf in one function, it changes a result that gets computed earlier in a completely different function. Sep 13 20:06:08 just leave it in broken lines - its an odd edge case relating to optimization Sep 13 20:06:24 lcuk_busy: If that was the _only_ segfault I was getting, I would. Sep 13 20:06:31 I can't even diagnose the next one. Sep 13 20:06:32 ahhh Sep 13 20:06:38 something tells me that nokia should have just taken one of their phones, slapped a display across its whole front and gotten opera mini running on it. at least then we would not have the numbers that want the tablet to be a "phone"... Sep 13 20:07:26 it's got a speaker and a microphone and a radio, it is a phone Sep 13 20:07:44 I wonder how hard it would be to compile gcc 4.3.2 in sb. Sep 13 20:08:00 derf: there is a ready package. Sep 13 20:08:05 derf: compiler tool chain upgrades are a real nightmare Sep 13 20:08:05 jott: Genius. Sep 13 20:08:38 timelyx: As opposed to crashes that vanish when I try to debug them? Sep 13 20:08:52 derf: http://scratchbox.org/debian/dists/stable/main/binary-i386/ Sep 13 20:09:02 quantum effects - the lhc has gone live Sep 13 20:09:08 jott: I don't care about i386. Sep 13 20:09:09 (not sure if it's 4.3.2 but it's a 4.x) Sep 13 20:09:24 derf: um Sep 13 20:09:27 * timelyx ponders Sep 13 20:09:29 "maybe" Sep 13 20:09:32 derf: it's cross-compiling :) Sep 13 20:09:44 the browser/flash team have hit a bunch of gcc induced bugs Sep 13 20:09:45 derf: your sbox gcc is x86. Sep 13 20:09:48 i'd rather upgrade Sep 13 20:09:56 but i do sympathize w/ the people who chose not to Sep 13 20:10:23 (thus those packages have to be installed on your host) Sep 13 20:10:23 it isn't quite "the devil you do know is better than the devil you don't" Sep 13 20:10:30 I mean, I understand the ARM side gets a lot less use than x86, but this is fairly ridiculous. Sep 13 20:10:32 but in practice any change incurs risk Sep 13 20:10:37 and nokia is fairly risk averse :) Sep 13 20:10:40 derf, simpler - try an alternative optimization type ;) Sep 13 20:10:49 -Oz Sep 13 20:10:51 -Os Sep 13 20:10:57 i use O3 Sep 13 20:11:02 gah Sep 13 20:11:04 please don Sep 13 20:11:06 t :) Sep 13 20:11:09 or manually pick the optimization flags until it fails :) Sep 13 20:11:13 O3 introduces things which violate contracts Sep 13 20:11:17 like alignment rules Sep 13 20:11:23 gcc knowingly generates bad code Sep 13 20:11:26 and doesn't seem to care Sep 13 20:11:35 it seems to work for me :) Sep 13 20:11:43 (anyone interested in arguing is welcome to volunteer to fix the bug, i'll gladly share) Sep 13 20:11:51 * lcuk_busy doesnt have random odd crashes unless he explicitely codes them in Sep 13 20:12:05 im good at making spectacular crashes Sep 13 20:12:12 lcuk_busy: you also must have a small app Sep 13 20:12:15 but you lot don't see most of them ;) Sep 13 20:12:22 we have a number of really sucky gcc induced crashes Sep 13 20:12:26 It now crashes under: -Os, -O1, -O2, -O3, and without optimization. Sep 13 20:12:43 timelyx, then you have other problems Sep 13 20:12:48 Note that it behaves differently under several of them. Sep 13 20:12:50 just reboot your machine and try agian Sep 13 20:12:52 derf: unoptimize your code *scnr* Sep 13 20:13:09 jott: I would if I had _any_ idea where the problem was! Sep 13 20:13:28 gcc 3.4.4 seems to me the problem :( Sep 13 20:13:30 But if I add a printf before the place it crashes, it gets a different value somewhere earlier and then doesn't take that code path. Sep 13 20:13:42 And crashes somewhere else. Sep 13 20:13:47 derf: just install the cs2007q3 toolchain and see if it works. Sep 13 20:13:53 you sound like you have screwed your stack up Sep 13 20:14:06 lcuk_busy: I wouldn't doubt it. Sep 13 20:14:18 I am, however, not the one managing the stack. Sep 13 20:14:21 That is gcc's job. Sep 13 20:15:02 I mean, unlike the other one, this could in theory be an actual bug. But if I can't find it, that doesn't do me any good. Sep 13 20:15:04 i only get wierd shit like this when i dont do a clean clean; make after ive been screwing with the structs Sep 13 20:15:22 make^ Sep 13 20:15:56 lcuk_busy: Makefile rebuilds _everything_ if I change the Makefile. Sep 13 20:16:04 Which I've been doing repeatedly to change the optimization flags. Sep 13 20:16:56 ahhhh (can you share the method you are using to do that, it saves me a cmd) Sep 13 20:17:14 # Make everything depend on changes in the Makefile Sep 13 20:17:14 ${ALL_ASM} ${ALL_OBJS} ${ALL_DEPS} ${ALL_TARGETS} : Makefile Sep 13 20:18:11 cool, thanks Sep 13 20:21:26 lcuk_busy: ping Sep 13 20:21:30 do you have sp-* on your device? Sep 13 20:21:42 sp-? Sep 13 20:21:50 open xterm, type sp- :) Sep 13 20:22:03 there are something like 20 or so sp-/sp_ apps Sep 13 20:22:16 no, what are they Sep 13 20:22:21 * qwerty12-N800 only has sp-oops-extract Sep 13 20:22:30 i'm looking for a couple of them but don't remember their names Sep 13 20:22:38 um, can you apt-cache search for the others? :) Sep 13 20:24:02 timelyx, ive only got dsp* and xsp* stuff, what are they and why do i need to search for em? Sep 13 20:24:05 timeless: sure, a sec Sep 13 20:25:08 lcuk_busy: well, i only need one person, you were alive :) Sep 13 20:25:13 but they're helpful apps :) Sep 13 20:25:27 barely Sep 13 20:26:12 ill bblater on Sep 13 20:26:36 pastebin not loading... Sep 13 20:26:45 pastebin.mozilla.org :) Sep 13 20:28:35 http://slexy.org/view/s23beG9d8o Sep 13 20:29:28 thanks, i was looking for sp-mem* and sp-smaps* Sep 13 20:29:55 if you care about stuff, i'd suggest you grab em all :) Sep 13 20:30:22 would someone please rekill https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=3705 Sep 13 20:31:04 * timelyx sighs Sep 13 20:32:39 sorry, I voted. but how did RST38h run microb w/out browserd? Sep 13 20:33:07 you just kill -9 it Sep 13 20:33:57 thanks Sep 13 20:35:15 afaik he meant w/o it being running not w/o using it Sep 13 20:35:23 the browser-ui we ship doesn't support in process browser Sep 13 20:35:35 and since it's closed source, there's not much of a choice :) Sep 13 20:38:24 Jaffa/GeneralAntilles: ping Sep 13 20:43:45 qwerty: I killed browserd and started microb Sep 13 20:43:55 qwerty: So it had to start browserd and then itself Sep 13 20:44:13 qwerty: I killed browserd and started microb Sep 13 20:44:17 RST38h: to be clear, you aren't luarvique@gmail.com right? Sep 13 20:44:17 qwerty: So it had to start browserd and then itself Sep 13 20:44:26 qwerty: That took 2 extra seconds! Sep 13 20:44:32 timelyx: I am Sep 13 20:44:55 RST38h: get this clear now. i will disable your account and my own if you reopen this bug again Sep 13 20:44:55 crystal? Sep 13 20:45:26 you're violating the trust that a bug system is supposed to engender Sep 13 20:45:32 for the rest of us, what's wrong with the bug linked above? Sep 13 20:45:35 RST38h: interesting :), on my device, I have to start browserd manually if i killed it Sep 13 20:45:44 and you're pissing off one of the very few engineers who is trying to increase interaction Sep 13 20:46:08 timelyx: Mmmm... I will leave your ultimatum without comment but WILL make a mental note about you. Thanks. Sep 13 20:46:29 qwerty: There are two copies Sep 13 20:46:46 qwerty: The little 2MB one you do not kill - it is responsible for restarting the large 11MB copy Sep 13 20:46:46 timelyx: is it the reason that it's a "collection" report, that it summarizes and extends on existing bugs? Sep 13 20:46:59 Fatal: reload. Sep 13 20:47:09 will do Sep 13 20:47:11 RST38h: I see Sep 13 20:47:28 any additional comments and i'll just ban myself from this irc channel and the bug system Sep 13 20:47:30 and probably find a new job Sep 13 20:47:34 i don't need this aggravation Sep 13 20:47:36 clear? Sep 13 20:48:00 i hear that opensolaris is welcoming Sep 13 20:48:07 right, valid points, albeit a bit temperd, but I see where you're coming from Sep 13 20:48:26 sorry you guys pissed me off on my day of rest Sep 13 20:48:34 why does it take 2MBs of code to start some more code? Sep 13 20:48:48 mavhc: eh? Sep 13 20:48:52 there are two parts to the daemon Sep 13 20:49:00 one is responsible for creating daemons for individual clients Sep 13 20:49:06 there are actually multiple clients on the device Sep 13 20:49:19 the tablet-tutorial iirc is a client Sep 13 20:49:56 yeah, it uses the flash plugin from the browser Sep 13 20:49:59 timelyx: I doubt you have the best of positions hanging in the middle (and no, I haven't read up on current affairs). You have my sympathies, how little they may mean. Sep 13 20:50:07 http://viper.haque.net/~timeless/blog/139/ Sep 13 20:50:22 Fatal: for reference, 139 iirc is my sign off from maemo-devel Sep 13 20:50:29 well really Sep 13 20:50:32 http://viper.haque.net/~timeless/blog/140/ Sep 13 20:51:06 anyway, the tiny daemon was another design choice Sep 13 20:51:25 it doesn't cost much and it's probably mirrored after the design used by maemo-launcher Sep 13 20:51:27 which people are willing to tolerate Sep 13 20:51:40 fwiw, in looking around, QTopia has a similar daemon approach Sep 13 20:51:46 where it basically preforks Sep 13 20:51:53 it's a standard technique Sep 13 20:52:08 and the state of browsers is that you will want the browser out of the ui process Sep 13 20:52:20 we were actually late to that party Sep 13 20:52:40 This technique causes problems. Sep 13 20:52:53 RST38h: shut up Sep 13 20:53:00 Nobody really cares how well it works in Chrome, QTopia, or any other browser. Sep 13 20:53:05 It causes problems in Maemo. Sep 13 20:53:34 QSSL (QNX, voyager_server/opera_server/mozilla_server) was there in 2000 or earlier Sep 13 20:53:42 and their impl just worked Sep 13 20:53:45 you never heard complaints Sep 13 20:53:50 RST38h: why do you think that it causes problems? Sep 13 20:53:53 except for maybe that you could only use one engine at a time Sep 13 20:54:10 RST38h: if the OS and browser ui don't let you do something about busy apps Sep 13 20:54:13 then those are bugs Sep 13 20:54:17 ssvv: It i all described in https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=3705 Sep 13 20:54:19 and they need to be fixed Sep 13 20:54:22 timelyx: again, my deepest sympathies. It's hard enough to justify design/process desicions in a closed source enviroment with sales and support personell breathing down your neck, and in a semi open community such as this, I bet it attracts alot of flaming and useless repetivness. Sep 13 20:54:34 ssvv: A bug that timelyx labeled as invalid and told me to shut up Sep 13 20:54:57 Fatal: i've dealt w/ sales Sep 13 20:55:02 they're much friendlier Sep 13 20:55:06 give me sales any day Sep 13 20:55:12 RST38h: but this bugreport does indeed look invalid... Sep 13 20:55:23 I wouldn't wish the sales dept at my job on anyone :) Sep 13 20:55:26 ssvb: It links to two other bug reports, do check those Sep 13 20:55:38 ssvb: And one of the commenters links to 3 other bug reports Sep 13 20:56:20 Fatal: yeah, i know the feeling Sep 13 20:56:22 RST38h: the other bugs do not seem related to this client/server daemon design Sep 13 20:56:57 ssvb: they in fact are Sep 13 20:57:19 ssvb: They mention problems restarting browserd when it accidentally dies Sep 13 20:57:37 RST38h: so what? Sep 13 20:57:53 ssvb: Problems killing browserd when it hangs up. Problems losing memory shared between server and clients Sep 13 20:58:18 ssvb: If not for the current client/server design, these problems would not be there Sep 13 20:58:18 RST38h: timelyx makes a valid point there, though: a problem restarting browserd doesn't indicate a fundamental design flaw; it indicates a bug. Sep 13 20:58:50 Jaffa: fundamental design flaw is a bit different here Sep 13 20:59:34 Jaffa: Basically, if you have got something as large, resource hungry, and crash prone as a web browser, you do not make it a background process Sep 13 20:59:42 RST38h: keeping some unreliable part of program in an easily killable/restartable separate process is a design that improves reliability Sep 13 20:59:45 Now, I'm not sure *I'd've* designed it like this, or that this is the ideal solution to platform UI specification requirement for <5s load and other things; but it is a way of solving it, and therefore a valid design in that sense. Sep 13 21:00:08 Jaffa: Not every way or solving it or even a valid design is a viable one Sep 13 21:00:21 qwerty12_N800: can you try something for me? Sep 13 21:00:27 ssvb: that is the point - it is not easily killable :) Sep 13 21:00:35 timelyx: sure Sep 13 21:00:37 on your device, use renice to lower the priority of browserd Sep 13 21:00:41 RST38h: as I said, it is a separate bug Sep 13 21:00:44 ssvb: and leaves garbage when killed too Sep 13 21:00:46 i.e. make it less important than the rest of the system Sep 13 21:00:52 RST38h: indeed, but Bugzilla isn't the right place to discuss new and better architectures. Sep 13 21:01:22 Jaffa: All I am suggesting in a bug report is to review the decision and possibly return to the previous, simpler design Sep 13 21:01:26 RST38h: then that's another bug. Even if it was one process, if it left garbage when killed, that'd be a bug - but not an argument for restructuring it from one process to many Sep 13 21:01:50 RST38h: but that's not a trackable, achievable, measurable or specific issue. Sep 13 21:01:52 Jaffa: if it were only that - yes Sep 13 21:02:11 Jaffa: But you can see that there are multiple problems stemming from the client/server design Sep 13 21:02:18 are there any sketch programs for maemo? Sep 13 21:02:23 RST38h: that's what the mailing lists are for Sep 13 21:02:36 RST38h: ...and there were multiple problems stemming from a single process design, AIUI. Sep 13 21:02:38 It is not that I am against such design, but you do not make the largest, most crash prone part of your system a server :) Sep 13 21:02:49 Jaffa: Exactly two afaik Sep 13 21:03:18 summatusmentis: maemopad+ Sep 13 21:03:25 or the sketch app that ships w/ the tablet Sep 13 21:03:27 Geezus, 1.3GB is not enough to install the scratchbox toolchain. Sep 13 21:03:29 Jaffa: 1) slow startup (client/server reduces it by 2 seconds) and 2) web browser dies when window does (now it dies when server dies) Sep 13 21:03:30 you could try getting tuxpaint Sep 13 21:03:35 A c/s design allows for the option of a browser engine crash to have it restarted with no related UI crash Sep 13 21:03:40 What on earth is in that thing? Sep 13 21:03:41 timelyx: oh, ok, thanks :) Sep 13 21:03:55 RST38h: check http://www.internettablettalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=23582 Sep 13 21:03:59 personally on all but my 770 i use sketch from the device Sep 13 21:04:02 timeless: i've done a sudo renice +5 `pidof browserd` Sep 13 21:04:06 Jaffa: yes, but why would you care for reopnening that window if your browser dies anyway? Sep 13 21:04:19 on the 770 i use maemopad+ because i used it as a personal device and grabbed more apps Sep 13 21:04:23 * timelyx sighs Sep 13 21:04:26 RST38h: looks like there is a high chance that third-party plugins may be involved (adblock) Sep 13 21:04:41 timelyx: your other tablets you don't use as personal devices/ Sep 13 21:04:47 s///?/ Sep 13 21:04:49 summatusmentis: i work for nokia Sep 13 21:04:56 i develop the browser for them Sep 13 21:05:00 ssvb: disabled it. same thing. Sep 13 21:05:02 so they're basically reflash+test victims Sep 13 21:05:05 oh right, i knew that. Sep 13 21:05:13 qwerty12_N800: ok, try loading the test cases that have been mentioned Sep 13 21:05:17 does the device respond better? Sep 13 21:05:18 RST38h: Having Firefox recover from a crash without restarting and reopening the tabs would be "better" from a user experience point of view. Sep 13 21:05:39 Jaffa: fwiw, it's half planned too :) Sep 13 21:05:56 timelyx: not going to be demoed next week then? ;-) Sep 13 21:05:59 no timeline, but the basic plans were being formulated at the mozilla summit :) Sep 13 21:06:05 Jaffa: sadly not Sep 13 21:06:13 cool Sep 13 21:06:24 Jaffa: yea, but in our case reopening that puny window is a very small part of starting the browser Sep 13 21:06:43 Jaffa: Maybe in FireFox, where display interface is more complicated... Sep 13 21:06:56 RST38h: IMHO this still needs proper investigation, for example check if other people can reproduce the problem without even installing adblock in the first place Sep 13 21:07:16 Anything which minimises the exceedingly slow window opening/redraw code on a tablet is fine by me. Sep 13 21:07:29 ssvb: You have seen that I have been threatened with a ban for reopening this bug Sep 13 21:08:08 RST38h: you are just behaving a bit rude, it's better to calm up and focus on technical issues only Sep 13 21:08:25 ssvb: I am stating the facts. See the log. Sep 13 21:08:47 Jaffa: As I understood things, rendering happens in browserd (which dies) Sep 13 21:08:50 Jaffa: you should port wimpworks to it Sep 13 21:08:51 RST38h: you are too fast to judge what is at fault, and your points do not seem valid to me Sep 13 21:08:56 Jaffa: Opening a window is cheap though Sep 13 21:09:08 RST38h: what'd *really* go down well, of course; is a suggestion on maemo-developer for a design which meets the requirements of a fast start-up time and a crash proof UI. Perhaps involving a more staged, componentised system? Sep 13 21:09:30 mavhc: oh, blimey - a mavhc. I'd seen you here and my brain's just gone "duh" Sep 13 21:09:47 :-) Sep 13 21:10:03 how about releasing the source code and disable the server part as one wishes :) Sep 13 21:10:19 jott: you don't want to hear the story about that Sep 13 21:10:22 A WimpWorks port seems a little... complex. Sep 13 21:10:24 can we not go there? Sep 13 21:10:32 timelyx: it's not up to you. i know :( Sep 13 21:12:02 Jaffa: Well, crash proof won't do Sep 13 21:12:12 browserd reniced at +5 is giving problems with that livejournal (no usercontent.css + plugins disabled).. i'll try a renice @ -5 Sep 13 21:12:30 Jaffa: It is based on FF and FF is resource hungry and NOT crash proof Sep 13 21:12:45 Jaffa, I LUVZ YOOOOOOO Sep 13 21:12:49 Jaffa: So whatever component encapsulates FF's renderer and JS will crash Sep 13 21:13:04 k Sep 13 21:13:15 * crashanddie loves it when there's a talk about a "crash" on IRC Sep 13 21:13:18 beep, beep, beep Sep 13 21:13:24 :P Sep 13 21:13:34 your own fault for adding notify on "crash" Sep 13 21:13:48 ... i added notify no "rm" >_> which causes no end of beeping on #gentoo and #debian Sep 13 21:13:53 Jaffa: I would make it configurable (i.e. UI looks for browserd, does not find it, and loads FF DLLs by itself) Sep 13 21:14:17 s/notify no/notify on/ Sep 13 21:14:17 rm_you meant: ... i added notify on "rm" >_> which causes no end of beeping on #gentoo and #debian Sep 13 21:14:19 timelyx: post 140, very good btw Sep 13 21:14:24 just finished reading it Sep 13 21:14:53 alright, may do that Sep 13 21:14:58 gah wrong window Sep 13 21:15:23 Jaffa: OR maybe have the main window process act as a server for other windows, dunno Sep 13 21:16:03 crashanddie: sorry ;-) Sep 13 21:17:06 RST38h: which is similar to how Chrome approaches the problem, I think. I think you'll catch more flies with honey (or however it goes), and I think timelyx is right: Bugzilla isn't really the right place for logging design concerns. Sep 13 21:17:12 rm_you, I left #gentoo because of the crash beeping Sep 13 21:17:19 RST38h: ok, you suggest a major change in design and you are not sure if it will solve the problems, what's the point then? Sep 13 21:18:12 RST38h: you can have a look at the design of captive (http://www.jankratochvil.net/project/captive/), it was used to provide ntfs read/write support before ntfs3g got developed Sep 13 21:18:48 RST38h: it had to rely on unreliable closed source binary drivers from windows Sep 13 21:19:51 qwerty12-N800: yeah sorry, i hate renice because the man / help is awful Sep 13 21:19:56 * timelyx can never remember which way to go Sep 13 21:20:15 Fatal: thanks :) Sep 13 21:21:23 timelyx: higher number is "nicer" to everythiing else, i.e. higher number == lower priority. Sep 13 21:21:28 * Jaffa always has to think about it Sep 13 21:21:43 timelyx: yeah :), watchdog rebooted my tablet though. probably didn't help that i was untarring a 80mb bz2 at the same time :/. i used htop to do it Sep 13 21:22:14 heh Sep 13 21:22:22 * qwerty12-N800 is used to the windows way of priority thinking which imho is better Sep 13 21:22:30 qwerty12-N800: anyway, if you can find a way that makes the device happier than default Sep 13 21:22:35 oh, the windows way is *much* better Sep 13 21:22:38 bah, unix sucks Sep 13 21:22:42 timelyx: curiously enough, the one garfield minus garfield strip I've found to describe some of my workdays (saved by my rss2imap thankfully) got deleted, but here, I think you need it: http://stukach.com/deleted_garfield_minus_garfield_2008-09-05.png Sep 13 21:22:58 thanks! Sep 13 21:23:04 Jaffa: I am not interesting in creating a better world. Sep 13 21:23:12 s/interesting/interested/ Sep 13 21:23:12 RST38h meant: Jaffa: I am not interested in creating a better world. Sep 13 21:24:15 Jaffa: Just making some comments while passing by. Sep 13 21:25:36 Okay, it took 2.8 GB to install. Sep 13 21:26:51 derf: fwiw, i recommend the mozilla.org maemo vm which is at least a 4gb vm Sep 13 21:27:15 i can't remember how big, but it's a barely reasonable minimum and has a decent default set of stuff Sep 13 21:27:23 timelyx: There's now way I can get that much free disk space. Sep 13 21:27:25 i've actually asked the person who made it to make a bigger vm Sep 13 21:27:30 derf: what os? Sep 13 21:27:37 Gentoo. Sep 13 21:27:39 ZFS/NTFS support compression Sep 13 21:27:52 hrm... ebuild install solaris Sep 13 21:27:59 I hate Solaris. Sep 13 21:28:03 Almost more than Windows. Sep 13 21:28:44 technically there are a few file systems linux supports that can do compression Sep 13 21:28:49 i just wouldn't trust any of them ;-) Sep 13 21:28:54 Yes, neither would I. Sep 13 21:29:26 derf: buy a new hard drive? ;) Sep 13 21:29:37 ssvb: At some point I will just get a new laptop. Sep 13 21:30:00 derf: you are using gentoo on laptop? Sep 13 21:30:07 This was the largest 2.5 GB drive they sold at the time. Sep 13 21:30:10 ssvb: Yes. Sep 13 21:30:15 *2.5 inch Sep 13 21:30:33 how big? Sep 13 21:30:37 100 GB Sep 13 21:30:57 I constantly run with about 100 MB free. Sep 13 21:31:06 could be worse Sep 13 21:31:13 my laptop hit <1mb free a few weeks ago Sep 13 21:31:15 that kinda broke firefox Sep 13 21:31:22 Oh, that happens all the time. Sep 13 21:31:27 because the sqlengine got into a out of disk condition Sep 13 21:31:27 I don't use Firefox. Sep 13 21:31:30 and doesn't reset Sep 13 21:32:12 * timelyx shrugs Sep 13 21:32:18 you can't use wine for google chrome atm Sep 13 21:32:18 derf: 100GB should be more than enough, probably you just need to find and remove/backup some rarely used crap :) Sep 13 21:32:23 wine is missing a bunch of things :) Sep 13 21:32:43 * qwerty12-N800 doesn't like google chrome Sep 13 21:32:45 I don't know what the new toolchain has in it, but it uses 2.1 GB more disk space than the old one. Sep 13 21:33:16 ssvb: I do image processing research. Sep 13 21:33:22 100 GB is nowhere near enough. Sep 13 21:33:27 derf: ouch Sep 13 21:33:44 I'd stick a 1 TB drive in here if they made one. Sep 13 21:33:47 And I'd still fill it up. Sep 13 21:34:18 derf: do you really need to do the research locally? Sep 13 21:34:22 i do all my work remotely Sep 13 21:35:03 timelyx: I travel a lot, and internet access is not always plentiful. Sep 13 21:35:11 :( Sep 13 21:35:17 firewire external drive? :) Sep 13 21:35:21 Plus I like to be able to see the images without sucking them down through a 32kbps straw. Sep 13 21:36:12 [nsfw] http://timeless.justdave.net/stress/stress.html Sep 13 21:36:16 Yeah, I probably should, but I don't trust any of them, and they're a PITA to lug around with everything else. Sep 13 21:36:32 derf: how small is your straw today? Sep 13 21:36:56 * mavhc loves chrome, mostly because I'm the guy with 160 tabs in firefox using 1GB of ram and using procexp to find out that flash thread is using 99% cpu Sep 13 21:37:01 I'm actually home today, so 200 K/s down. Sep 13 21:37:08 derf: try it :) Sep 13 21:37:11 timelyx, what are you stress testing? your server or loading on device? Sep 13 21:37:19 lcuk_busy: any device Sep 13 21:37:24 the server is dream host, it'll deal Sep 13 21:37:42 lcuk_busy: fwiw, that's killed a bunch of boxes Sep 13 21:37:51 including some BSDs Sep 13 21:38:13 some phones, a samsung Q1 (?), ... Sep 13 21:38:17 it's a fun page Sep 13 21:38:27 firefox is up at 500mb actual 700 page Sep 13 21:38:38 firefox these days actually does reasonably well Sep 13 21:38:44 iirc it actually killed chrome once Sep 13 21:38:54 * timelyx was amused by that Sep 13 21:39:20 that shows something cool Sep 13 21:39:37 now its loaded, at rest at a location firefox is stable at 153mb and 322mb Sep 13 21:40:15 yeah, it took quite a few years before firefox finally handled it well Sep 13 21:40:21 when i move it shoots up to 900mb and 1.3gb before settling back down when i stop again Sep 13 21:40:30 yep Sep 13 21:40:32 that's expected Sep 13 21:40:45 from memory n4/ie5 used 885mb to load the page Sep 13 21:40:46 thats impressive - thats its dynamic caching in effect Sep 13 21:41:02 the difference between that number and the 1.2g number is the alpha channel Sep 13 21:41:06 n4/ie5 didn't do alpha Sep 13 21:41:09 * lcuk_busy tips his hat to the developer :) Sep 13 21:41:11 so it was cheaper for them :( Sep 13 21:42:30 ~lart box.net Sep 13 21:42:30 * infobot drops a humongous exploding nuke on box.net Sep 13 21:42:32 i was considering loading the images as a stress test on the device Sep 13 21:42:38 until i noticed how many there were Sep 13 21:42:49 iirc there's an ostress.html and mstress.html Sep 13 21:42:59 they're smaller versions Sep 13 21:43:06 fwiw microb does fairly well Sep 13 21:43:11 or at least did the last time we tried Sep 13 21:43:13 i loaded the link because it said nsfw Sep 13 21:43:22 heh Sep 13 21:43:24 lol Sep 13 21:43:37 it crashed ff when i reran it Sep 13 21:44:02 hey, i'm trying to get oprofile setup on my n810 -- looking at http://maemo.org/development/tools/doc/diablo/oprofile/ -- two questions: is it possible to install the kernel on the device with this flasher tool, or do i need to do it from my desktop, and either way, where do i get the tool? Sep 13 21:44:29 Pavlov: google for flasher should find it Sep 13 21:44:40 does anyone else run into issues when running a browser and pidgin? Like, lots of lag, sometimes the browser not loading things because of low memory, etc. Sep 13 21:44:41 there are plenty of wiki pages for that Sep 13 21:44:50 Hey, Copenhagen! Sep 13 21:44:53 I've been there. Sep 13 21:44:53 Pavlov: you can flash the kernel from the device itself Sep 13 21:45:04 maemo.org/maemowiki/HOWTO_FlashLatestNokiaImageWithLinux Sep 13 21:45:31 Page "HOWTO_FlashLatestNokiaImageWithLinux" not found in wiki Wiki. Sep 13 21:45:32 derf: where did you see copenhagen? Sep 13 21:45:40 timelyx: The mermaid. Sep 13 21:45:51 Pavlov: gah, i hate our wiki reorgs, one sec Sep 13 21:45:51 I mean, I've been to that exact spot. Sep 13 21:46:22 derf: i haven't loaded stress in perhaps a year, direct url? :) Sep 13 21:46:29 Jaffa, is http://wiki.maemo.org/Main_Page dead??! Sep 13 21:46:58 http://timeless.justdave.net/stress/DanMac8Nautisk1024x768.jpg Sep 13 21:47:03 Pavlov: google cache would work ... Sep 13 21:47:06 https://wiki.maemo.org/Main_Page Sep 13 21:47:17 timelyx, https works Sep 13 21:47:20 all right, input cues show up with fb0, sleep time Sep 13 21:47:26 wiki.maemo.org/Updating_the_tablet_firmware ? Sep 13 21:47:44 Pavlov: that link should work... Sep 13 21:47:56 crashanddie: did you get the kismet stuff sorted? Sep 13 21:48:07 qwerty12-N800, yup Sep 13 21:48:09 qwerty12-N800, thanks Sep 13 21:48:24 derf: hrm, i'll have to go there and see it Sep 13 21:48:32 it's sad, but i can't recall the picture Sep 13 21:48:37 Pavlov, does RantPavlov ring a bell? Sep 13 21:48:39 i thought i'd kinda memorized all of them Sep 13 21:49:12 timelyx: hrm, none of these seem to say how to flash a new kernel on the device itself Sep 13 21:49:30 Pavlov: that's a new thing Sep 13 21:49:37 but that page *should* mention it :) Sep 13 21:49:47 anyway that page does have the link to get flasher Sep 13 21:49:50 Pavlov: running diablo? Sep 13 21:49:52 and instructions for via usb Sep 13 21:50:00 he better be :) Sep 13 21:50:09 qwerty12-N800: yeah, i had this all working before i upgraded ;p Sep 13 21:50:17 So, seamonkey is cheating. Sep 13 21:50:27 It's using 230 M, but X is using 1.3 GB. Sep 13 21:50:34 Pavlov: sudo fiasco-flasher -f -k ;) Sep 13 21:50:41 sweet Sep 13 21:50:49 timelyx: yeah, i just can't find my usb cable Sep 13 21:50:57 derf: btw Pavlov's the guy who did most of that work Sep 13 21:51:03 so that hat tip is to him :) Sep 13 21:51:09 which work? Sep 13 21:51:32 making http://timeless.justdave.net/stress/stress.html use reasonable amounts of ram :) Sep 13 21:51:46 oh Sep 13 21:51:46 heh Sep 13 21:52:08 qwerty12-N800: fix the wiki ;-) Sep 13 21:52:13 still a little excessive Sep 13 21:52:47 timelyx: I'm on a tablet + i'm tired + my wiki knowledge sucks :p Sep 13 21:53:04 Pavlov: more fixes welcome ;-) Sep 13 21:53:21 yeah Sep 13 21:53:24 qwerty12-N800: alright, find a partner, maybe derf or crashanddie :) Sep 13 21:53:31 got a few things up my sleaves Sep 13 21:53:37 wait, what? Sep 13 21:53:39 sleeves too Sep 13 21:53:47 qwerty12-N800 can't be my partner Sep 13 21:53:52 + I'm also dreaming up the perfect configure line to compile net-snnp for mips Sep 13 21:53:52 he's under age, I'd end up in prison Sep 13 21:53:57 lmao Sep 13 21:54:23 crashanddie: i had that experience dancing one day in San Francisco Sep 13 21:54:30 amusing story, but i don't think i'll archive it here Sep 13 21:54:34 ask me @summit ;-) Sep 13 21:55:09 crashanddie: psst, ask timelyx and tell me and i'll post it everywhere Sep 13 21:55:25 qwerty12-N800, i'm not going to the summit Sep 13 21:57:02 hi, where can I find 'pand' on the N810 with diablo? it doesn't seem to be included in bluez-utils anymore... where is it gone? Sep 13 21:57:47 * qwerty12-N800 had wished that someone would have put subversion in diablo extras by now... i may get off my ass and do it soon :/ Sep 13 21:58:13 jonek: bluez-utils-test Sep 13 21:59:40 timelyx, what do you want me to do? Sep 13 22:00:15 explain how to use fiasco-flasher from the tablet in the flashing article on wiki.maemo.org Sep 13 22:00:42 ok Sep 13 22:00:47 i thikn i am oprofile enabled Sep 13 22:00:47 qwerty12-N800: thx - which repository do I have to include to get it? Sep 13 22:01:25 Which sb devkits do I need for maemo again? Sep 13 22:02:05 jonek: sorry but i'm too tired to dig up the info, deb is here though; http://repository.maemo.org/pool/diablo/free/b/bluez-utils/ Sep 13 22:02:30 qwerty12-N800: thx Sep 13 22:03:07 that should be the normal diablo system repo.. Sep 13 22:03:54 timelyx, I have no idea how to do that :P Sep 13 22:04:02 qwerty12-N800 seems to Sep 13 22:04:07 get him to explain :) Sep 13 22:07:23 oh, it's easy :). add a pointer to the root access page that is on the wiki and run sudo gainroot and fiasco-flasher -f -k to flash a kernel. to flash an initfs is the same except you fiasco-flasher -R -f -k Sep 13 22:07:46 *fiasco-flasher -R -f -i Sep 13 22:10:02 * Stskeeps watches his armel qemu install debian.. Sep 13 22:10:02 :P Sep 13 22:13:47 So, anyway, I can't get anything to actually run with that toolchain. Sep 13 22:14:51 ./qrreader: error while loading shared libraries: libpng12.so.0: cannot enable executable stack as shared object requires: Invalid argument Sep 13 22:14:56 This is me giving up again. Sep 13 22:15:06 I should have just given up in the first place. Sep 13 22:15:10 oh Sep 13 22:15:13 that sounds familiar Sep 13 22:15:21 iirc it means your linux kernel is configured broken Sep 13 22:15:47 please don't ask me to try to remember the specific flag which results in totally unusable scratchboxes Sep 13 22:15:49 but iirc it's googlable Sep 13 22:16:04 Works just fine with the 2005 toolchain. Sep 13 22:16:18 I do remember having to flip a kernel option to get sb working initially. Sep 13 22:16:41 But I think I'm beyond the point of caring enough to mess around with compiling new kernels. Sep 13 22:17:31 nah Sep 13 22:17:37 no recompile required Sep 13 22:17:49 it's something twiddable in /proc Sep 13 22:21:56 Google suggests /proc/sys/kernel/exec-shield, but I don't have that. Sep 13 22:21:57 derf: you need an updated cputransparency package with a new qemu Sep 13 22:23:11 derf: at least that's what I needed to run executables built with a new toochain in scratchbox Sep 13 22:23:58 Is that going to need another 2 GB in disk space? Sep 13 22:24:12 Because I haven't got it. Sep 13 22:24:22 it shouldn't Sep 13 22:24:40 I wouldn't have thought a dev toolchain would, either. Sep 13 22:24:55 gcc? Sep 13 22:24:59 * timelyx shrugs Sep 13 22:25:02 it's basically a full os :) Sep 13 22:25:08 glibc on up Sep 13 22:25:18 otoh, i'm still curious as to what was eating the space :) Sep 13 22:25:24 get a visualizer and ask it :) Sep 13 22:25:33 I'm pretty sure Gentoo's full toolchain is nowhere near that large. Sep 13 22:27:09 derf: gentoo's minimal installation is also pretty large Sep 13 22:27:36 Sure, but I don't need a whole system. Sep 13 22:27:44 I just need a compiler. Sep 13 22:28:14 derf: have you tried crossdev in gentoo by the way? Sep 13 22:28:39 Maybe? Sep 13 22:28:51 I think I used that for mingw32 compiling. Sep 13 22:28:56 But maybe I used something else. Sep 13 22:29:05 it can be also used for ARM Sep 13 22:29:17 Anyway... qemu-arm-cvs-m? Sep 13 22:29:21 That seems to be the only new option. Sep 13 22:29:25 yes Sep 13 22:29:58 And now my code works. Sep 13 22:32:28 Lots of fun messages from the assembler like Sep 13 22:32:29 {standard input}:20032: rdhi, rdlo and rm must all be different Sep 13 22:32:37 But since it works I'll assume they're harmless. Sep 13 22:34:06 derf: http://sourceware.org/ml/binutils/2007-11/msg00046.html Sep 13 22:34:37 it's a harmless warning for ARMv6 Sep 13 22:36:27 gas is too pedantic here, reporting a problem that is not relevant for ARMv6 Sep 13 22:38:28 I am running a pan bluetooth connection between my N810 and my PC but dns doesn't work although I followed the dnsmasq instructions on http://maemo.org/community/wiki/howto-bluetoothnetworking. I can ping my nameserver's IP and nslookup a.host.de works fine in xterm. but a nslookup a.host.de doesn't work - what is the problem? Sep 13 22:41:10 derf: btw, any plans for ARM optimizations for theora? Sep 13 22:41:31 ssvb: Yes. As soon as I learn ARM asm. Sep 13 22:43:37 derf: ok, I see, I just thought about looking at improving ffmpeg theora decoder Sep 13 22:44:03 ssvb: Making it work would be nice. Sep 13 22:44:04 as it is going to be used for video on web, it might make sense to give it a hand Sep 13 22:44:24 i'm sick of flash :) Sep 13 22:44:47 ssvb: There's still work that could be done on the C portions of libtheoradec, if you're bored. Sep 13 22:46:50 I like LGPL license a bit better :) Sep 13 22:47:15 Even RMS approves of us using BSD. Sep 13 22:48:54 Which seriously is not a strong argument at all. Sep 13 22:51:34 lcuk_busy fwiw http://www.squarefree.com/2007/09/20/firefox-memory-usage-and-memory-leak-news/ talks about the memory behavior, it wasn't all pavlov Sep 13 22:55:02 w00t, I have 7 karma points :D Sep 13 22:56:40 * Proteous removes all 7 of crashanddie's points for bragging Sep 13 23:00:13 * crashanddie hangs on to them Sep 13 23:00:19 heh Sep 13 23:01:45 lardman|gone: QR code decoding committed. Sep 14 00:09:16 derf: are you still here? Sep 14 00:19:22 ssvb: Yes. Sep 14 00:21:07 derf: I was just checking vorbis spec, looks page is cut on the right side in pdf file, page 36 Sep 14 00:21:26 but I found the same information in html already Sep 14 00:22:04 I don't think we can even generate the PDF version anymore. Sep 14 00:22:21 DocBook has bitrotted out from underneath us. Sep 14 00:22:48 anyway, what does "packet undecodable" mean? what the compliant decoder should do in this case? Sep 14 00:24:16 I don't think the specification ever says. Sep 14 00:24:41 So you can do anything "reasonable". Sep 14 00:25:17 E.g., substitute silence, throw the samples away, try to do some more sophisticated interpolation... Sep 14 00:26:43 The only real guarantee is that a compliant decoder correctly decodes compliant streams. Sep 14 00:27:43 I see, thanks. Cloning 'oggdec' behaviour would be the best choice probably Sep 14 00:27:56 It should certainly be a reasonable choice. Sep 14 00:28:19 Whatever you do, don't try to decode partial data that may be corrupt. Sep 14 00:28:24 You might blow out Monty's speakers. Sep 14 01:57:18 Nice, an iPhone article finally made it to Planet Sep 14 01:57:42 That certainly sounds like a sign-off letter, can we stop syndicating his blog then? Sep 14 02:00:27 heh Sep 14 02:01:57 yeah, delist him Sep 14 02:04:05 * GeneralAntilles is writing the flasher usage page. Sep 14 02:04:41 * GeneralAntilles wonders how, exactly, fiasco-flasher plans on flashing the rootfs. Sep 14 02:05:58 does this room have a question bot set up ? Sep 14 02:06:05 ~help Sep 14 02:06:15 thank you Sep 14 02:06:17 infobot, say hello. Sep 14 02:06:18 hello. Sep 14 02:06:29 yeah, don't use ~help, you'll regret it Sep 14 02:06:31 it's just infobot Sep 14 02:06:47 ok Sep 14 02:07:14 infobot update n810 Sep 14 02:07:25 ~flashing Sep 14 02:07:26 rumour has it, flashing is http://wiki.maemo.org/Updating_the_tablet_firmware Sep 14 02:07:43 thanks Sep 14 02:08:57 ya that is more like it. thanks all Sep 14 02:33:57 anyone using a bluetooth adapter with their PC to connect to their N770? Sep 14 02:35:06 My 770 sees my desktop computer via bluetooth, but when I try to pair I get a message that there are no services available? Sep 14 02:37:33 are you telling us or asking us? Sep 14 02:37:47 because we really don't know your computer :) Sep 14 02:37:55 ~boot-sd Sep 14 02:37:56 methinks boot-sd is https://wiki.maemo.org/Booting_from_a_flash_card Sep 14 02:39:31 My 770 tells me there are no services, but I have enabled all bluetooth services on my desktop Sep 14 02:40:22 what services does your desktop claim to offer? Sep 14 02:41:09 bluez-utils or bluez-utils-test has tools which let you browse bluetooth services Sep 14 02:41:13 in case you don't trust us Sep 14 02:41:37 input service, network service, audio service and serial service - all "running" Sep 14 02:42:20 look at the bluez commandline tool and see what it says Sep 14 02:42:29 but which of those did you expect the 770 to use? Sep 14 02:43:13 input or network Sep 14 02:43:35 network is probably pand which we definitely didn't ship support for Sep 14 02:43:47 input is presumably HID Sep 14 02:43:50 supposedly pand is in bluez-utils(-test) Sep 14 02:43:52 which the 770 doesn't provide Sep 14 02:44:01 GeneralAntilles: provide as client or server? Sep 14 02:44:27 Well, you can connect a keyboard to the 770, but you can't make the 770 behave as a keyboard for the computer. Sep 14 02:44:30 but yeah HID was a feature we only vaguely supported w/ n800 and later Sep 14 02:44:32 Not without 3rd party software, anyway. Sep 14 02:44:42 ~PAN Sep 14 02:44:43 Gnome/GTK Newsreader. URL: http://www.superpimp.org/ Sep 14 02:44:46 Bleh Sep 14 02:44:47 http://wiki.maemo.org/Bluetooth_PAN Sep 14 02:44:53 ~bluetooth-pan Sep 14 02:44:55 GeneralAntilles: i'm pretty sure he's trying to do the former Sep 14 02:45:03 ~bluetooth-pan is http://wiki.maemo.org/Bluetooth_PAN Sep 14 02:45:03 GeneralAntilles: okay Sep 14 02:45:16 what about the other way around - use the computer keyboard to run the 770? Sep 14 02:45:40 mdg: there's a keyboard control panel applet iirc Sep 14 02:45:49 and maybe a second one labeled something else... Sep 14 02:46:03 for os2006? Sep 14 02:46:29 mdg, VNC is the easier way to go about getting that Sep 14 02:46:31 keyboard as an applet shipped w/ the os Sep 14 02:46:44 but yeah Sep 14 02:46:50 by the time you're there, what's the point Sep 14 02:46:52 use vnc :) Sep 14 02:46:53 tried VNC last night - no go - I got a weird network setup apparently Sep 14 02:47:25 install ssh(-server) Sep 14 02:47:45 I have one wireless desktop that I would love to use to access the 770, wifi is provided by a belkin router Sep 14 02:48:16 ssh-server on the desktop or the 770? Sep 14 02:49:06 personally i'd stick both on both Sep 14 02:49:14 it makes life simpler Sep 14 02:49:25 can I make a "mini" network between my wireless desktop and 770, not using wifi from router? Sep 14 02:49:55 yes Sep 14 02:50:07 I have open sshserver on 770 Sep 14 02:50:19 but if you have to ask, then you'll probably regret trying to do it :) Sep 14 02:50:37 would that be considered an ad hoc connection - wireless desktop to 770? Sep 14 02:50:41 is the desktop wired to the router or wireless? Sep 14 02:50:42 mdg, you did install x11vnc on the tablet, right? Sep 14 02:51:30 the one I want to setup is wireless (the one I am using now is not). Yes X11vnc on 770 Sep 14 02:51:47 and you started it from the menu? Sep 14 02:52:11 will try starting it now ->> Sep 14 02:52:40 okay, nothing happens when I start it from the menu - I must be missing something Sep 14 02:52:42 If you got a "connection refused" when trying to connect with VNC from your computer to your tablet, then the vnc server on the tablet wasn't started. Sep 14 02:52:51 Nah, it doesn't give any notification. Sep 14 02:52:56 nice Sep 14 02:53:00 Hehe Sep 14 02:53:03 Well, it works. . . . Sep 14 02:53:06 no one considered adding a system notification area thing? Sep 14 02:53:22 They may have, but it's basically a recompile. Sep 14 02:53:28 Not even available in a repository. Sep 14 02:53:47 next step would be what? Open a terminal on 770? Sep 14 02:53:58 Try to connect to VNC from the computer. Sep 14 02:55:14 I'm at my wired desktop right now - I don't think it will do anything Sep 14 02:55:54 I will try and see what happens Sep 14 02:57:33 I type "vncserver" and it tells me "New 'x' Desktop is name-desktop:1" Sep 14 02:57:52 You want the client Sep 14 02:57:56 You're connecting to a server Sep 14 02:58:14 so I should be typing "vncclient?" Sep 14 02:59:24 what would client app be called? vncclient didn't work **** ENDING LOGGING AT Sun Sep 14 02:59:56 2008