**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Tue Oct 28 02:59:57 2008 Oct 28 05:46:58 8-year-old loses control of submachine gun, suicides: "I gave permission for him to fire the Uzi. I watched several other children and adults use it. It's a small weapon, and Christopher was comfortable with guns. There were larger machine guns with much more recoil, and we avoided those." Oct 28 05:47:12 General, that is another rock into your backyard =) Oct 28 05:48:41 hi, everybody Oct 28 05:50:04 My N800 cannot connect to maemo extras, report '302 Found' Oct 28 05:50:47 When I installed maemo SDK, I met same problem. Oct 28 05:53:56 Could anyone give a help? Oct 28 05:56:18 johnx, How can I avoid the problem of '302 Found'? Oct 28 06:06:55 has anyone noticed that battery life estimates don't refresh until you reboot? Oct 28 06:07:04 That's not true. Oct 28 06:07:17 Rebooting is just a huge power drain. Oct 28 06:11:35 hrm, my tablet was showing 8 days 5 hours just a moment ago Oct 28 06:11:56 after rebooting it shows 10 days / 7 hours Oct 28 06:12:24 The battery applet is mostly just wildly inaccurate. Oct 28 06:13:53 i wish it would just show an mAh figure Oct 28 06:14:28 Which means something to exactly what percentage of tablet owners? Oct 28 06:14:49 Feel free to code up a replacement battery applet. Oct 28 06:15:33 i seem to recall a thread about improving it several months ago Oct 28 06:16:52 the wildly fluctuating hours figure is way too confusing Oct 28 06:17:45 i think 10 hours = 100% and 5 hours = 50%, but who knows Oct 28 06:18:34 * RST38h wonders if it is possible to port Ubuntu battery applet to maemo =) Oct 28 06:19:03 Does it do retu? Oct 28 06:19:42 I'm not sure how abstracted the battery stuff is. Oct 28 06:21:01 what's retu? Oct 28 06:29:12 l7: one of the custom chips in the NIT IIRC Oct 28 06:30:07 "Fred" (as in Flintstone) Oct 28 06:31:19 Related to bb5 Oct 28 06:32:33 Power and security stuff (on cellular devices, anyway) Oct 28 06:43:20 Maemo Extras and Nokia Catalog in Apllication Catalog failed to refresh (302 Found), other two, Nokia System Software Updatres andNokia Catalog(3rd party software) are ok. Any idea? Oct 28 06:43:50 GAN: it probably just reads from /sys/devices or whatever passes for that in generic Linux Oct 28 06:44:21 GAN: So with some tweaking it just may work on Maemo Oct 28 06:45:03 ok, ttg to work Oct 28 06:47:41 Can I use http proxy on application manager? Oct 28 06:49:00 The only 3rd party battery status app I saw was KotCzarny's :/ (and one that reads it from BME directly but that is internal to Nokia) Oct 28 07:08:58 * Stskeeps looks around Oct 28 07:09:40 ello Stskeeps Oct 28 07:11:17 GeneralAntilles, qwerty12: http://qgil.jaiku.com/presence/47635104 Oct 28 07:13:06 Stskeeps, TF? I see that the hacker versions are updated weekly... /sarcasm Oct 28 07:13:44 qwerty12_N800: i'm not entirely sure what it's about but i might give some input to that stuff :P Oct 28 07:14:30 hehe Oct 28 07:14:43 anyone got a jaiku invite to give, if it works like that? :P Oct 28 07:15:22 Think it's open these days. Oct 28 07:15:24 Hello all Oct 28 07:15:35 Slightly odd thread. Oct 28 07:16:00 GeneralAntilles: i think it's in terms of using a desktop UI instead of a mobile UI, as i understand it Oct 28 07:16:25 Stskeeps, which hardly seems the point of Deblet to me. Oct 28 07:17:00 well, and that it might actually be an alternative to maemo.. but it's also a proof of concept of tablet possibilities, which is what i plan to write on the jaiku when i get an invite :P Oct 28 07:17:22 i'd much rather see a change in maemo than work a mobile distribution from scratch, less work for me :P Oct 28 07:17:40 * GeneralAntilles doesn't have one to give. Oct 28 07:17:58 think i'm just waiting for greylisting to let it through :P Oct 28 07:19:38 this was something qgil mailed to me directly though, so i guess it's mandatory to comment ;) Oct 28 07:19:45 Ha Oct 28 07:19:49 I'm posting something. Oct 28 07:21:27 Anybody knows about the '302 found' problem of Application Catalog in N800? Oct 28 07:22:16 if you had SDK download problems, they would show in same way in app catalog dl's Oct 28 07:22:17 same server Oct 28 07:23:39 Stskeeps, who do I want to name-drop for Deblet Oct 28 07:23:47 you, johnx, qwerty12, ...? Oct 28 07:24:09 Not me I'd assume :) Oct 28 07:24:25 qwerty12_N800: well you did contribute in some ways :P Oct 28 07:24:25 Eh, I'm making a point. Oct 28 07:24:32 They're sure to recognize your name, anyway. Oct 28 07:24:50 GeneralAntilles: http://trac.tspre.org/projects/deblet#Creditwherecreditisdue Oct 28 07:24:59 * GeneralAntilles just found that. Oct 28 07:25:08 The font size on that site just jumped up by a ridiculous amount. Oct 28 07:25:08 Ok then, I don't mind but i only made a few tiny contributions Oct 28 07:26:28 * qwerty12_N800 doesn't mind if you mention my name ; I just thought it would sound like me taking a lot of credit because I didn't do that much :) Oct 28 07:27:01 Well, mvo seems to think the Deblet people are leaving the tablet community. Oct 28 07:27:49 initially maybe but i'm starting to get a understanding of the good things about maemo, too Oct 28 07:28:01 a "standard debian" won't -ever- get sane power consumption Oct 28 07:29:05 But you can certainly have good power consumption while maintaining enough library compatibility to make porting easy, no? Oct 28 07:29:52 yeah Oct 28 07:30:02 well, there's a lot of different things involved Oct 28 07:30:18 debian is still at typical sysv init runlevels and such Oct 28 07:30:29 which is good for a server, but not always for mobile devices Oct 28 07:30:41 some things you simply don't need when you're offline/system idle/etc Oct 28 07:30:43 Sure, but certainly there are a lot of broken compatibility areas that have no reason to be broken, right? Oct 28 07:30:48 *nod* Oct 28 07:35:10 dneary's trying to peg the maemo.org logo license on me. . . . Oct 28 07:36:08 GeneralAntilles: good post, ta Oct 28 07:36:24 * GeneralAntilles wishes mvo would come back to us here. Oct 28 07:36:54 honestly, we needs a "Who's who in Maemo" Oct 28 07:36:55 list Oct 28 07:37:17 * Stskeeps has very little overview who works on what Oct 28 07:37:24 Ha Oct 28 07:37:29 dneary worked on it for a while Oct 28 07:37:32 It stalled out, though. Oct 28 07:37:56 We kinda decided it'd be better to leave it to individuals and their maemo.org accounts. Oct 28 07:38:08 Feel free to ask me if you need to know, though. :P Oct 28 07:38:33 alright Oct 28 07:39:40 * GeneralAntilles hates when interesting things pop up on Jaiku Oct 28 07:39:49 I can't bring myself to check it often enough because it's usually just spam. Oct 28 07:43:41 You know, 2 days and we already have a half-dozen good patches together for h-a-m Oct 28 07:43:54 I wonder why that didn't happen a year ago Oct 28 07:44:12 Yerga pulled out a nice surprise :D Oct 28 07:44:18 Mr. Patch Oct 28 07:55:01 * Stskeeps continues waiting for jaiku to send an invite since they claim unlimited invites atm.. Oct 28 07:55:30 this is why i prefer irc.. Oct 28 07:55:30 :P Oct 28 07:55:46 You're biased because you made a ircd :P Oct 28 07:56:15 Nah, Jaiku still sucks. Oct 28 07:56:34 It's like IRC, but more schizophrenic. Oct 28 07:56:39 hehe Oct 28 07:56:44 and tape-delayed. Oct 28 07:57:07 * qwerty12 has never used Jaiku so I have no idea what it is like. But I do like IRC anyway :) Oct 28 07:57:22 It's an amalgamation of forums and IRC. Oct 28 07:58:16 But it's harder to track interesting threads than forums and no live like IRC. Oct 28 07:59:10 ..but its more live than forums Oct 28 07:59:19 its like sms sent to interwebs Oct 28 07:59:41 twitter for professional forum users? :P Oct 28 07:59:44 it actually IS sms sent to interwebs, though nowadays you can use normal data connection Oct 28 07:59:54 i think jaiku is from finland too Oct 28 08:00:13 and i think i blogged about jaiku in its beta phase Oct 28 08:02:12 Hmm, I dunno, I still see the tabletscene forums as useless :P Oct 28 08:02:22 Ha Oct 28 08:02:29 They are. Oct 28 08:02:38 oh, finally, an invite Oct 28 08:02:47 Especially after krisse declared the tablets dead. Oct 28 08:02:56 Heh :/ Oct 28 08:03:03 Which means, what, half of the answers on tablet scene wont be coming anymore? :P Oct 28 08:03:21 5 posts in the last 2 days Oct 28 08:03:57 Lol :P. I think I only posted there a few times and got reprimanded for giving answers which are too "complex". :D Oct 28 08:04:07 * GeneralAntilles shakes his head. Oct 28 08:04:22 Though you do have a way of giving a lot of dangerous info in your answers. :P Oct 28 08:04:59 But it's like brontide said, if the solution requires a xterm and there is no other way of doing it (apart from reflashing and that is pointless if it doesn't need to be done), then it's the way of the xterm :P Oct 28 08:05:06 never! :P Oct 28 08:05:20 Hehe, true, I think I get carried away sometimes... :P Oct 28 08:05:46 It is what it is, but it does make me chuckle. :D Oct 28 08:06:35 I would say "Do x". qwerty12 would say "Do x, which does y, or you could do a and b, which also does y . . . and here's this thing about Red Pill." :P Oct 28 08:06:54 Hehe, true :D Oct 28 08:07:25 But I point people to dpkg now rather than red-pill so I must get points for that :D Oct 28 08:09:46 Arg, mediawiki numbering of lists is weird >.< Oct 28 08:09:54 What're you doing? Oct 28 08:10:09 If you need to insert code in between two item, you have to use HTML. :\ Oct 28 08:10:17
    Oct 28 08:10:52 Trying to fix the section I made on Modifying_the_root_image :/. I used ## which was wrong so I changed it to # which is now starting from one rather than 2 :/ Oct 28 08:11:17 What section? Oct 28 08:11:25 Making the actuall jffs2 image? Oct 28 08:11:28 yep Oct 28 08:11:38 One sec Oct 28 08:12:10 Thanks Oct 28 08:12:54 Fixed. Oct 28 08:13:00 Thank you Oct 28 08:13:11 Change the indentation on the 
    's if you want.
Oct 28 08:13:39 * GeneralAntilles breached 1000 edits yesterday.
Oct 28 08:13:44 * GeneralAntilles wants his karma.
Oct 28 08:13:53  Ouch, 1000 :O?
Oct 28 08:14:15  Probably 200 of those are appending categories to the bottom of articles. :D
Oct 28 08:14:41  GeneralAntilles has about the same amount of edits as the automated spambots have ;)
Oct 28 08:14:54  For me, I'd still count that as a feat because I get tired doing the same thing :P
Oct 28 08:15:03  Thankfully my signal-to-noise ratio is much better. :P
Oct 28 08:15:27  qwerty12, yeah? Check the recent changes page in the sidebar. ;)
Oct 28 08:16:20  Hah
Oct 28 08:16:26 * qwerty12 eyes are transfixed to the page
Oct 28 08:16:46  There should be something like /me's
Oct 28 08:16:48  I've started adding some more categories.
Oct 28 08:16:56  I agree
Oct 28 08:16:59  Stskeeps, get on that?
Oct 28 08:20:09  ~lart mozilla for making me log in to install a simple extension >.<
Oct 28 08:20:10 * infobot forces mozilla to use Outlook Express for making me log in to install a simple extension >.<
Oct 28 08:21:16  heh
Oct 28 08:21:42  Though I praise the Open In Browser extension :P
Oct 28 08:23:16  Hey, GA, mind if I update the Rotation page? The osso-software-version-unlocked packages on that page are outdated if we are talking about them with regards to the latest SSU
Oct 28 08:23:27  does that extension work in osso xterm?
Oct 28 08:23:34  qwerty12, do it.
Oct 28 08:23:38  Cool
Oct 28 08:23:56  l7: You mean to be able to select http links to open in the browser?
Oct 28 08:24:14  GeneralAntilles: sorry, what?
Oct 28 08:24:22  boss came in
Oct 28 08:24:22  :P
Oct 28 08:24:55  Make IRC do /me's.
Oct 28 08:25:24  qwerty12: yes, i notice it underlines stuff, but does not open
Oct 28 08:25:42  l7: I humbly point you to : http://www.internettablettalk.com/forums/showpost.php?p=219462&postcount=1 :)
Oct 28 08:25:46  GeneralAntilles: /me's of what?
Oct 28 08:26:17  drat i'm still slow on the thumbboard
Oct 28 08:26:29  So you can do possessive actions.
Oct 28 08:26:51 * GeneralAntilles 's cat is in insane-mode.
Oct 28 08:27:22  Heh, my cat once locked us out of the living room :P
Oct 28 08:27:31  either my mind is completely blurred from my nasty cold or I don't see a problem? /me works just fine on irc
Oct 28 08:27:31  fu***ng /me. theres actually NO real reason to use it, ever.
Oct 28 08:27:35  :P
Oct 28 08:27:36  qwerty12: ah awesome, thx
Oct 28 08:27:51  should i ignore all the /me's? :D
Oct 28 08:28:05 * qwerty12 slaps macoute with a smelly tuna fish
Oct 28 08:28:08  Sometimes actions speak louder than words.
Oct 28 08:28:12  General: Must...Kill...All Humans... ?
Oct 28 08:28:15  GeneralAntilles: when?
Oct 28 08:28:30  GeneralAntilles: you mean "10:39  * GeneralAntilles 's cat is in insane-mode.
Oct 28 08:28:46  or infobot
Oct 28 08:28:53  or 10:26  * GeneralAntilles wants his karma.
Oct 28 08:28:54  RST38h, nah, this is "sprint from one end to the apartment and back over and over".
Oct 28 08:29:00  you got the point :)
Oct 28 08:29:06  macoute: infobot has it's uses as well
Oct 28 08:29:08  You like trolling?
Oct 28 08:29:18  s/it's/its/
Oct 28 08:29:18  qwerty12 meant: macoute: infobot has its uses as well
Oct 28 08:29:19  i keep wonderinng what happened to the handy CTRL+N and CTRL+P buttons from the 2007 osso_xterm too
Oct 28 08:29:32  General: Glass stormdoors are known to cure this behaviour
Oct 28 08:29:41  Hehe
Oct 28 08:29:45  RST38h, I've done that
Oct 28 08:29:49  but I've never seen my cat do it.
Oct 28 08:30:01  I have once
Oct 28 08:30:14  Not something one does twice.
Oct 28 08:30:23  The cat has been kept outside for months (we were afraid she would be run over by a car)
Oct 28 08:30:24  GeneralAntilles: well no, but i really think so. if one can't speak about himself without using /me, i think the problem is more in linguistic skills than anywhere else.
Oct 28 08:30:36 * macoute really thinks so
Oct 28 08:30:48  So when she saw the new stormdoor she decided not to take chances - accelerated from about 10+ meters away
Oct 28 08:31:03  but ive had this conversation here already :)
Oct 28 08:32:16  It's unhealthy to get worked up over small things.
Oct 28 08:32:34 * qwerty12 cunN0t $pE@K EnGl!$|-|
Oct 28 08:32:56  cuntnot, yea
Oct 28 08:33:15  yeah, I was thinking of typing cunt
Oct 28 08:36:47  GeneralAntilles: added a comment - regarding GPL zealotry i just wanted to indicate deblet wasn't about that clearly too, you seem to have the right understanding :)
Oct 28 08:37:17  Stskeeps, it's my job to understand. :D
Oct 28 08:37:40 * GeneralAntilles spots Stskeeps.
Oct 28 08:39:58  oh, neat, they put up more stuff on the alignment wiki
Oct 28 08:40:52 * qwerty12 hopes I won't have to apply that diff to mvo 2.1.20 diablo h-a-m branch
Oct 28 08:41:21  Honestly, despite whatever RST38h says (:P), I don't think Nokia management much cares about what libraries the platform ships nor what it's based on.
Oct 28 08:41:49  GeneralAntilles: i think they may just be directly happy to get some input on fremantle.. i'm not entirely sure they've started the OS work yet
Oct 28 08:41:51  I think the bigger issue is pointing Maemo Software in the right location.
Oct 28 08:42:27  My feeling about this discussion is that the community should really look at real end users and not only hardcore hackers.
Oct 28 08:42:47  From the standpoint of?
Oct 28 08:42:50  The only thing that will get us anywhere is big number sales.
Oct 28 08:43:04  Well, a platform discussion is a platform discussion
Oct 28 08:43:12  It doesn't really involve end users
Oct 28 08:43:13  We don't want te forget that ;)
Oct 28 08:43:21  beyond, perhaps, opening them up to more software
Oct 28 08:43:25  X-Fade: we shouldn't underestimate passionate users either as ways to attract people to buy a tablet
Oct 28 08:43:30  either through better compatibility or easier porting.
Oct 28 08:43:49  There is something to be said for winning over the local geek.
Oct 28 08:43:58  The "go to geek"
Oct 28 08:44:29  Stskeeps: If Nokia is going to aim to the milions of users. How many hardcore hackers do you think there will be.
Oct 28 08:44:32  The UI and end-user discussion is really a separate one.
Oct 28 08:45:17  X-Fade: well, considering the netbook market exploding a little bit these days.. netbook in your pocket for instance
Oct 28 08:45:19  Users don't care about debian, opensource, whatever. They just want a cool device, with a cool interface and easy access to cool software.
Oct 28 08:45:39  What we want is something different ;)
Oct 28 08:45:50  X-Fade, which is fine, but unrelated to this discussion.
Oct 28 08:46:18  X-Fade: maybe the thing about debian, open source, yadda yadda is incentive for the people who'd develop the platform and apps
Oct 28 08:46:20  Roope can worry about slick UIs to entice users.
Oct 28 08:46:21  i mean
Oct 28 08:46:36  less screaming at scratchbox when you want to port some cairo support library
Oct 28 08:46:41  that's good, i guess
Oct 28 08:46:51  There's a lot to be said for happy developers.
Oct 28 08:46:59  Without developers, you have no users.
Oct 28 08:47:05  Stskeeps: Sure, easier development methods need to happen.
Oct 28 08:47:58  and the reason i'm even pushing ahead with this is because i know it will help me in my workplace and in my own tablet use
Oct 28 08:48:09  for development purposes
Oct 28 08:48:30  And every unneeded hurdle needs to be removed.
Oct 28 08:48:52  i mean, i got upset at that i couldn't set up a simple rsync every night of my xournal notes easily
Oct 28 08:49:10  since i'm from a unix upbringing from when i was 8 :P
Oct 28 08:49:43  Stskeeps: Well, I guess running cron + rsync is an option ;)
Oct 28 08:49:48  X-Fade: you'd think so
Oct 28 08:50:11  but when the tablet goes into deep sleep it misses the time and fails to do it
Oct 28 08:50:23  and had problems with the retu enabled once too
Oct 28 08:50:44  Stskeeps: Yeah, I think you need to use alarmd for that.
Oct 28 08:50:49  (which used alarmd)
Oct 28 08:50:59  As that one sets hardware wakeups.
Oct 28 08:51:16 * GeneralAntilles can't imagine what's going on with the alarmd sources.
Oct 28 08:51:24  David fails at releasing sources.
Oct 28 08:52:11  mvo really should push 2.1.20 to ssu soon when it's finished. I just tried it on my tablet and the speed boost is brilliant even in red pill mode is brilliant.
Oct 28 08:52:23  Speed boost?
Oct 28 08:52:24  -is brilliant
Oct 28 08:52:34  Yeah, I'm seeing packages *much* faster
Oct 28 08:52:40  Huh, what was changed?
Oct 28 08:52:48  and have you compiled it for release yet? :P
Oct 28 08:52:49  GeneralAntilles: There is some source available here: https://garage.maemo.org/scm/?group_id=127
Oct 28 08:53:00  GeneralAntilles: Although that seems to be a one-time drop.
Oct 28 08:53:12  GeneralAntilles: https://garage.maemo.org/plugins/scmsvn/viewcvs.php/branches/2.1.x/ChangeLog?revision=1434&root=hildon-app-mgr&view=markup
Oct 28 08:53:28  X-Fade https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=3635
Oct 28 08:53:44  GeneralAntilles: It's usuable straight from checking out but I guess I can do a unofficial release with some mods :)
Oct 28 08:54:17  Though I don't know why mvo has disabled the update repository button at the main screen now in red pill mode >.<
Oct 28 08:54:59  Mvo's red pill changes are in this release by default
Oct 28 08:55:21 * GeneralAntilles still doesn't get allnameswereout.
Oct 28 08:57:40  why my n810 cannot remember my background image setting
Oct 28 08:58:20  I changed a picture, but after I reboot,it reset to default one
Oct 28 08:58:30 * Stskeeps curses power cuts
Oct 28 08:58:47 * GeneralAntilles gives Stskeeps a big UPS.
Oct 28 08:58:57  ruined my perfectly healthy 90 day xp uptime
Oct 28 08:58:58  :P
Oct 28 08:59:17  XP? Uptime? 90 days? Aiiii
Oct 28 08:59:31  impressive
Oct 28 08:59:34 <[zeus]> it's a magic!
Oct 28 08:59:39  and if thunderbird is going to die like last time now, i'm going to go on a rampage
Oct 28 09:00:10  Not touched and disconnected from the network?
Oct 28 09:00:26  sane setup
Oct 28 09:08:15  as in, 99% turned off ;)
Oct 28 09:13:16 * Stskeeps ponders idly how fast his 69m ubuntu image boots.
Oct 28 09:15:52  GeneralAntilles: regarding people, mvo - i've seen him with h-a-f, but does he do other stuff?
Oct 28 09:16:13  He's basically the h-a-m programmer.
Oct 28 09:16:25  alright
Oct 28 09:16:37  Grr
Oct 28 09:16:39  "  /* XXX - the code allows the retry of failed downloads, but I (mvo)
Oct 28 09:16:39             forgot to get the needed localized UI strings, so we have
Oct 28 09:16:39             to disable that functionality for now.
Oct 28 09:16:39    */"
Oct 28 09:16:47  ..
Oct 28 09:16:51  i understand, qwerty12
Oct 28 09:16:51  :P
Oct 28 09:17:17  lol
Oct 28 09:17:29  Lol, basically, when something fails, we have to close the error message and wait for the list to refresh. mvo has code that lets you retry it but he forgot to localise the strings
Oct 28 09:17:31  lol :P
Oct 28 09:17:46  we need a Maemo WTFs thread on iTT
Oct 28 09:17:46  :P
Oct 28 09:17:48  like thedailywtf.com
Oct 28 09:18:56  GeneralAntilles: You'll be glad to know that in the official h-a-m, the user won't be able to even set red pill as a permanent mode :P. But as this is a mod version and I am a self-confessed user of red pill mode, I need to have the option to set it in any patched versions :P
Oct 28 09:20:00  I can't blame him, its very hard to get ui specs changed
Oct 28 09:20:41 * GeneralAntilles really doesn't get allnameswereout
Oct 28 09:20:45  He seems to be against multitasking
Oct 28 09:20:57  Yeah, It is unfair for me to criticise seeing as I can't even do much with code anyway
Oct 28 09:21:03  qwerty12: It's a red pill setting as to whether red pill is permanent
Oct 28 09:21:07  Robot101, which is unfortunate.
Oct 28 09:21:12  I tried filing enhancement requests in bugzilla and got no end of pain. They were invalidated and I was referred to a tool I can't access.
Oct 28 09:21:22  qwerty12: I really wouldn't be happy if you released an interim version where red-pill was still permanent by default ;-)
Oct 28 09:21:30  (and what are you using red pill *for*?!)
Oct 28 09:22:09  Jaffa: I know, I never set it as default but I give the people the option to set it as permanent with the DANGER/ACHTUNG string I added on.
Oct 28 09:22:23  Jaffa: I like it, plus, I know what I'm doing with red pill :)
Oct 28 09:22:34  Hide it in gconf or something?
Oct 28 09:23:07  GeneralAntilles: Actually I guess that is mvo's plan, you can always set the option manually by editing .osso/hildon-application-manager
Oct 28 09:26:14  Fucking hell, I swear when I reinstall Ubuntu, I'm switching to Kubuntu. Nautillus has to be the biggest POS ever.
Oct 28 09:26:35  why?
Oct 28 09:27:07  GeneralAntilles: cant help in the understanding department, i find most usability talk way over the deep end...
Oct 28 09:27:14  RST38h: I kill it at least 10 times a day because it fails to show me what's new in the folder even by refreshing it manually.
Oct 28 09:27:17 * GeneralAntilles can't imagine a bigger PoS than Finder.
Oct 28 09:27:25  Even explorer.exe does a better job >.<
Oct 28 09:27:43  but then i think the same about most things learned from studying fellow humans, randomness in action imo...
Oct 28 09:28:05  Hehe
Oct 28 09:28:08 * t_s_o is addicted to konqueror
Oct 28 09:28:08  qwerty12: you should file a bug
Oct 28 09:28:11  it shouldnt do that
Oct 28 09:28:23  Problem is, it seems to be mostly mouth diarrhea
Oct 28 09:28:40  macoute: hmm, I guess, this is my 3rd install with that bug...
Oct 28 09:28:45  t_s_o: I will be soon :P
Oct 28 09:29:21  qwerty12: and you do know that you can install konqueror or some other file manager to Gnome as well. :D
Oct 28 09:29:29  no need to reinstall the whole os :D
Oct 28 09:29:35  im a bit sad that kde4 follows gnome in the quest for usability and introduced dolphin. nice file manager, but imo a bleak relative of konqueror ;)
Oct 28 09:29:35  hm, gst-plugins-dsp0.10, didn't notice that was OSS
Oct 28 09:29:52  macoute: Yeah, I've done it before I'm running out of space now which is one of the reasons I want to reinstall :)
Oct 28 09:30:04  ^but
Oct 28 09:31:23  ~lart myself for giving more space to windows.
Oct 28 09:31:23 * infobot squeezes myself till myself turns blue like papa smurf for giving more space to windows.
Oct 28 09:33:28  qwerty12: you do use LVM? ;)
Oct 28 09:34:05  on note of dolphin tho, i strikes me that the system of a main file window with a sidebar of "bookmarks" could be more effective then the current tree used in maemo, at least for when one is picking a file to open in some app...
Oct 28 09:34:10  macoute: Just a plain ext3 partition. I'm no advanced linux user and stick with basics *grin*
Oct 28 09:35:33  heh, seems like that "future" thread is heading for name calling hell quickly...
Oct 28 09:37:29  If anyone wants to try h-a-m 2.1.20, I've patched it with Yerga's repository display patch, Jaffa's toggable legal warning patch, show dependencies tab in blue pill, enable updating repo's button at main screen & Settings replaced with Settings... : http://qwerty12.maemobox.org/appman/testing/
Oct 28 09:38:00  It's an unreleased version so as usual, try at your own risk...
Oct 28 09:45:14  johnx: http://qgil.jaiku.com/presence/47635104
Oct 28 09:45:54  very interesting
Oct 28 09:45:59 * johnx reads, makes curry
Oct 28 09:47:18  Thanks, qwerty12.
Oct 28 09:47:41  No problems :)
Oct 28 09:47:47  -s
Oct 28 09:47:57  I'm wondering if things like that should go in extras-devel ;)
Oct 28 09:48:12  With a -community tagged to it orso ;)
Oct 28 09:48:27  qwerty12: i can also recommend xubuntu
Oct 28 09:48:36  or just use Thunar on ubuntu/gnome
Oct 28 09:48:41  X-Fade: It's an unreleased version though :/. It's why I've only posted the link here.
Oct 28 09:49:15  qwerty12: -community-preview then ;)
Oct 28 09:49:22  aquatix: Yeah, XFCE is nice but I do prefer GNOME to it for some reason :/. But Thunar is good, I forgot about that, thanks
Oct 28 09:49:55  X-Fade: Would you remove it when it's officially pushed via SSU?
Oct 28 09:50:07  s/when/if I guess
Oct 28 09:50:50  qwerty12: yw :)
Oct 28 09:51:03 * aquatix likes xfce4 because of the keyboard friendlyness
Oct 28 09:51:15  hmm, now i find myself pondering that deblet may well keep my tablet alive long after nokia have given up any pretense of continued support
Oct 28 09:52:08  t_s_o: i'm trying a bit to make nokia settle on a base that they build their tablet supports on, that's not as static-per-tablet-version
Oct 28 09:52:22 * aquatix pictures an ancient t_s_o playing around with his tablet around the end of the century
Oct 28 09:52:30  so continued tablet life would be possible
Oct 28 09:52:30 * GeneralAntilles still wants osv-c.
Oct 28 09:52:55  aquatix: i still have a nes here somewhere so...
Oct 28 09:52:59 * GeneralAntilles wonders if he could convince Stskeeps to work on it if it would help push Nokia in the right direction. :P
Oct 28 09:53:00  post-Nokia support has always been a part of the debian-on-tablet projects :)
Oct 28 09:53:02  t_s_o: :)
Oct 28 09:53:15  t_s_o: our snes is dieing :(
Oct 28 09:53:19  GeneralAntilles: i'm not that interested in osv-c.. underlying stuff though
Oct 28 09:53:33  i'd gladly hack on maemo if it was -actually- sane
Oct 28 09:53:38  :P
Oct 28 09:53:57  Stskeeps, start filing bugs.
Oct 28 09:54:05  and/or point me at issues and I'll file bugs.
Oct 28 09:54:33  GeneralAntilles: i will, eventually, just need to get past these weeks at work and me being sick :P after these weeks i'm joining a project where we'll use tablets extensively
Oct 28 09:54:41  and mobile environments
Oct 28 09:54:44  Stskeeps, GeneralAntilles, before filing random bugs, maybe we should at least start a little informal wiki page of things that get in our ways
Oct 28 09:54:58  johnx, qgil started one.
Oct 28 09:55:01  johnx: nokia's pushing http://wiki.maemo.org/Mainstream_Linux_Alignment a bit
Oct 28 09:55:17  ah, awesome, I'll add some things to it *evil laugh*
Oct 28 09:55:53  Point me in the right direction and I'll do the grunt work.
Oct 28 09:55:53  johnx: http://bsd.tspre.org/~stskeeps/ubuntumin.txt <- in 69m
Oct 28 09:56:03  I don't really have the experience to pick everything out on my own.
Oct 28 09:56:28  Stskeeps, hot sauce. :D looks good. even has coreutils. :D
Oct 28 09:56:52  johnx: my next attempt is throwing a hildon desktop on it
Oct 28 09:56:56  GeneralAntilles, I think neither Stskeeps nor I had the knowledge until we actually went and bashed through getting Debian sorted out
Oct 28 09:57:13  Stskeeps, I might do a couple tests with copied libs and LD_LIBRARY_PATH tonight
Oct 28 09:57:22  johnx: if i can make a 100mb or less hildon image.. there might be some interesting things
Oct 28 09:58:00  johnx, fair enough, but now you do. :P
Oct 28 09:58:40  GeneralAntilles, just have to rewind my brain back to the moments when I encountered randomness
Oct 28 09:58:48  right, small meeting
Oct 28 09:58:49  brb
Oct 28 09:59:07  unfortunately, the maemo-ized gtk is probably the biggest stumbling block and it's not going to go away easily...
Oct 28 09:59:24  johnx: they've noticed our notice in one of the bugs, atleast
Oct 28 09:59:41  https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=3827#c2
Oct 28 09:59:42  johnx, finds like a good bug to start with. :P
Oct 28 10:01:22  GeneralAntilles, that's completely beyond me at this point. Also it's a question of where the core maemo-architecture is going. I don't get to make those decisions...
Oct 28 10:01:49  s/finds/sounds/
Oct 28 10:01:50  GeneralAntilles meant: johnx, sounds like a good bug to start with. :P
Oct 28 10:03:24  guess I should get on jaiku...
Oct 28 10:03:34  johnx, so not worth it.
Oct 28 10:03:42  This is, like, the only useful thread in months.
Oct 28 10:04:12  hmm?
Oct 28 10:04:24  GeneralAntilles, I'd like to talk to mvo, though. He had exactly the same response as me to the idea of breaking from maemo...
Oct 28 10:04:40  t_s_o, http://qgil.jaiku.com/presence/47635104#c-1729776
Oct 28 10:04:50  johnx, -developers
Oct 28 10:06:25  so many things to follow :/
Oct 28 10:06:41  Don't gotta tell me.
Oct 28 10:07:07 * GeneralAntilles will aggregate more duplicate threads into his blog posts.
Oct 28 10:08:34  About sections/categories again.. Are we able to get a list asap, so we can do something for the short-term?
Oct 28 10:08:41  Oh, yesss: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jdUjGx-PVJY&feature=related
Oct 28 10:09:22  X-Fade, only thing I'm worried about is rushing it too quickly and ending up with something we want to modify.
Oct 28 10:09:34 * RST38h is mildly satisfied that there are ate least *some* honest people left 
Oct 28 10:09:54  GeneralAntilles: Well, short-term means fix it a bit now. So we have something for diablo.
Oct 28 10:10:06  And after that look at fremantle, which is longer term to me.
Oct 28 10:10:07  Wait, I stand corrected: he is Irish.
Oct 28 10:12:50  Alright, what does the room think? http://wiki.maemo.org/Task:Package_categories#Defined_top-level_categories_.26_application-specific_subcategories
Oct 28 10:13:48  accessories means nothing
Oct 28 10:13:56  replace with utilities
Oct 28 10:14:10  multimedia is outdated as a term - just usemedia
Oct 28 10:14:31  settings is meaningless, merge them all into system
Oct 28 10:14:52  http://standards.freedesktop.org/menu-spec/latest/apa.html
Oct 28 10:15:02  Part of the idea is to sort of stick with upstream.
Oct 28 10:15:09  the rest is good, as far as this motley fool is concerned
Oct 28 10:15:16  But, yes, s/accessories/utilities/
Oct 28 10:15:36  Well their categories are different anyway
Oct 28 10:16:06  Settings is really a useless category for the tablets, they are System by nature
Oct 28 10:16:28  They're approaching it from a Start menu viewpoint and we're going from a package categories viewpoint
Oct 28 10:16:31  And with Media, FreeDesktop seems to be confused - they have got three awkwardly named categories
Oct 28 10:16:36  So merging settings and system makes sense to me.
Oct 28 10:16:47  Just have one (Media)
Oct 28 10:17:13  Alternative: Have Media with two subcategories (is possible technically): Video and Audio
Oct 28 10:17:23  s/is/if/
Oct 28 10:17:23  RST38h meant: Alternative: Have Media with two subcategories (if possible technically): Video and Audio
Oct 28 10:18:00  Yeah, media is less awkward
Oct 28 10:18:26  There was an issue with people thinking PIM stuff didn't belong under office.
Oct 28 10:18:28  Any thoughts?
Oct 28 10:18:41  I suggested maybe "Productivity", but that really doesn't cover everything under Office.
Oct 28 10:18:46  Make a subcategory under Office
Oct 28 10:19:03  Same for Mail, Web, and Chat (under Network)
Oct 28 10:19:42  Taxonomies rarely work
Oct 28 10:20:11  True, but we are not hellbent on creating the complete taxonomy
Oct 28 10:20:32  Just a little handy order, yes.
Oct 28 10:20:45  The criterium for creating a subcategory is "if it covers >10% of category packages"
Oct 28 10:20:50  I feel a bit like communication should be separated from network.
Oct 28 10:20:53  RST38h: maybe look at how debian's categories are set up?
Oct 28 10:20:59  And you can raise those 10% if you wish, to stay safe
Oct 28 10:21:15  General: yes, but people will complain :)
Oct 28 10:21:19  aquatix: admin, comm, devel, doc, editors, electronics, embedded, games, gnome, graphics, hamradio, interpreters, kde, libs, libdevel, mail, math, misc, net, news, oldlibs, otherosfs, perl, python, science, shells, sound, tex, text, utils, web, x11
Oct 28 10:21:23  You tell me. :P
Oct 28 10:21:37  GeneralAntilles: errrr :)
Oct 28 10:21:42  General: So I would rather hadthose subcategories under Network
Oct 28 10:21:45  I want a user/kde category!
Oct 28 10:21:51  GeneralAntilles: i meant the menu stuff btw ;)
Oct 28 10:21:56  or hm
Oct 28 10:21:58  nm
Oct 28 10:21:58  user/hugecrap
Oct 28 10:22:05  yum
Oct 28 10:22:06  http://standards.freedesktop.org/menu-spec/latest/apa.html
Oct 28 10:22:31  no wait, GeneralAntilles: the debian menu stuff is actually quite ok
Oct 28 10:22:38  General: Also, an option "View/Ignore Subcategories" may be helpful in the app manager
Oct 28 10:22:38  categories and such
Oct 28 10:22:38 * GeneralAntilles feels like users might not get "Networking".
Oct 28 10:22:52  morning
Oct 28 10:23:08  hullo lardman
Oct 28 10:23:12  Network > Communication
Oct 28 10:23:19  http://newbiedoc.berlios.de/images/9/93/Debian-menu-xman.png
Oct 28 10:23:21  (submenu)
Oct 28 10:23:54  GeneralAntilles: it's quite nested though
Oct 28 10:24:35  Alright
Oct 28 10:24:38  This is my list: http://wiki.maemo.org/Task:Package_categories#Defined_top-level_categories_.26_application-specific_subcategories
Oct 28 10:24:48  1) I don't think we should use sub-categories for anything other than application multi-packages until we have far too many packages to worry about it
Oct 28 10:25:08  Yeah, I'm with Jaffa.
Oct 28 10:25:13  b) the i18n for "Networking" could be "Internet & Networkigng" - but can't just be "Internet" as that doesn't cover Samba clients, for example.
Oct 28 10:25:58  There's an argument to be made for not dropping categories from the existing list.
Oct 28 10:26:03  What about Tools?
Oct 28 10:27:40  GeneralAntilles: hm, that table looks sane to me
Oct 28 10:27:49  Where does nano go?
Oct 28 10:27:51  Utilities?
Oct 28 10:28:07  yes, I suppose
Oct 28 10:28:09  Utilities/Accessories
Oct 28 10:28:20  OK, fair enough.
Oct 28 10:28:23  the only problem with those categories is if we'll use them for the menu too, they'll be kind of lopsided
Oct 28 10:28:25  yeah, Utilities/Accessories sounds logical
Oct 28 10:28:41  sorry, fell off the inet earlier...computer crapped out
Oct 28 10:29:34  johnx, I'm sure Nokia has some plans for the application menu.
Oct 28 10:29:51  Any time a problematic package comes up, I want it recorded in that page the consensus of where best it could go. Then, if it doesn't go anywhere, the categorisation needs improvement
Oct 28 10:30:08  Aaah, Jaffa, that sounds like a good plan.
Oct 28 10:31:04  So, can we push this list to -developers as a proposed final list for Diablo?
Oct 28 10:32:02 * Jaffa adds text editors under 'Utilities' and puts some different English i18n suggestions there
Oct 28 10:33:38  any idea where to find  liblocation-dev ? (i have been asked , and i have no access to scratchibox right now)
Oct 28 10:34:01  is it one of the package that comes with the sdk, or is it in a repo (if yes, wich one ? )
Oct 28 10:35:06  wasn't someone saying yesterday that it's in the Nokia binaries install pack?
Oct 28 10:35:11  in the SDK
Oct 28 10:35:27  http://www.google.com/search?ie=utf8&oe=utf8&q=site:repository.maemo.org+liblocation-dev
Oct 28 10:35:30  It's not in the repo, anyway.
Oct 28 10:35:39  Yeah, lardman's right
Oct 28 10:35:51  of course ;)
Oct 28 10:35:54  hmm
Oct 28 10:35:56  ls /home/faheem/maemo-sdk-nokia-binaries_4.1/pool/liblocation*
Oct 28 10:35:56  /home/faheem/maemo-sdk-nokia-binaries_4.1/pool/liblocation-dev_0.30-1_armel.deb
Oct 28 10:35:56  /home/faheem/maemo-sdk-nokia-binaries_4.1/pool/liblocation-dev_0.30-1_i386.deb
Oct 28 10:35:56  /home/faheem/maemo-sdk-nokia-binaries_4.1/pool/liblocation0_0.30-1_armel.deb
Oct 28 10:35:56  /home/faheem/maemo-sdk-nokia-binaries_4.1/pool/liblocation0_0.30-1_i386.deb
Oct 28 10:36:14  thanks !
Oct 28 10:41:29  Anybody? Shall we push to -developers?
Oct 28 10:42:11  We also need to decide what we want to do with these top-level categories. Push it to the packaging policy?
Oct 28 10:42:36  Who is handling the policy?
Oct 28 10:42:44  Or have our own policy for the extras repositories.
Oct 28 10:43:04  I guess Eero's team.
Oct 28 10:43:39  It should go to the policy.
Oct 28 10:45:41  X-Fade/GeneralAntilles: did you see mvo's suggestion of not altering the deb if you want to change a package's section; but doing it in the repo's Packages index?
Oct 28 10:45:54  Yeah, that sounds workable to me.
Oct 28 10:46:04  Though that doesn't stop Nokia from being evil.
Oct 28 10:46:05  An interesting idea (forcing it in the app mgr prevents in-house, proprietary, turnkey, bespoke systems internally)
Oct 28 10:46:08  Jaffa: There is something like the 'overrides' file in the repo.
Oct 28 10:46:15  Nor random 3rd-party repos.
Oct 28 10:46:28  Jaffa: I have to investigate if our tools use it.
Oct 28 10:46:53  Doing it in the Application Manager also means less work for X-Fade. ;)
Oct 28 10:47:22  GeneralAntilles: But then the packages themselves stay crappy.
Oct 28 10:47:41  True enough
Oct 28 10:47:43  Although we will give the developers warnings when they upload.
Oct 28 10:47:50  How does Debian enforce?
Oct 28 10:47:53  So I guess most will change.
Oct 28 10:48:03  reject.
Oct 28 10:48:08  Yeah
Oct 28 10:48:10  Bad for us
Oct 28 10:48:15  For the time being, anyway.
Oct 28 10:48:17  Indeed.
Oct 28 10:48:20  Yes, that is no option.
Oct 28 10:48:28  So warnings is the best we can do.
Oct 28 10:48:33  Although, I don't imagine it being too far off, given how nice everyone's been about putting stuff in extras.
Oct 28 10:48:35  And some positive encouragement.
Oct 28 10:48:48  Warnings are only for the auto-builder, aren't they? There's the non-free stuff in Extras to worry about too
Oct 28 10:48:58  cronjob?
Oct 28 10:49:10  email the uploader?
Oct 28 10:49:14  Jaffa: Yes, but we can mail the uploader there too. It is a bit more work, but doable.
Oct 28 10:49:27  Unrelated, do you know who uploaded the ntp packages, X-Fade?
Oct 28 10:49:28  We have the email for each uploader.
Oct 28 10:49:40  GeneralAntilles: Which repo?
Oct 28 10:49:47  Extras somewhere
Oct 28 10:50:17  The maintainer line points to an Ubuntu mailing list.
Oct 28 10:50:42  openntpd_3.9p1-4-maemo3 ?
Oct 28 10:50:59  4.2.4p0+dfsg-4
Oct 28 10:51:14  ntp, ntpdate, and ntp-doc
Oct 28 10:51:44  https://garage.maemo.org/builder/diablo/Aug.2008/ntp_4.2.4p0+dfsg-4/summary.log
Oct 28 10:52:09  So marcell ;)
Oct 28 10:53:01  qwerty12, the repository line patch isn't perfect
Oct 28 10:53:21  A package in Extras shows up as "Repository: repository.maeom.org diablo free"
Oct 28 10:53:31  s/maeom/maemo/
Oct 28 10:53:31  GeneralAntilles meant: A package in Extras shows up as "Repository: repository.maemo.org diablo free"
Oct 28 10:53:38  GeneralAntilles: It's not my patch :P
Oct 28 10:53:54  Yeah, yerga's.
Oct 28 10:54:01  Oh, yerga's back.
Oct 28 10:54:04  yerga!
Oct 28 10:54:04  I'm getting maemo.org here.
Oct 28 10:54:10  Fixit!Fixit!Fixit!
Oct 28 10:54:22  It doesn't say repository.maemo.org/extras
Oct 28 10:54:36  GeneralAntilles, yeah
Oct 28 10:54:37  Just repository.maemo.org screams "SDK repo!" to me.
Oct 28 10:54:43  jus looking it at the moment
Oct 28 10:55:26  Yeah, qwerty12, package list updating feels way faster.
Oct 28 10:56:48  Cool. I've updated the build I put up by testing how well it works by using floating point & O3. I've also made it remove the ignore packages from wrong domains messages it spits in the log in the hope of making it faster
Oct 28 10:57:10  From what I can see, it's a bit more faster but nothing to write home about
Oct 28 11:02:39  Alright, I'm sending off an email to -developers.
Oct 28 11:02:54  General: The Chinese guy came here again this morning - looks like whatever extras server services China has got a problem
Oct 28 11:03:12  General: It reports 302 (content moved?) and the app manager absolutely hates that
Oct 28 11:03:27  The Chinese government do dodgy stuff with their internet anyway :/
Oct 28 11:03:39  I do not think their government is to blame this time
Oct 28 11:03:40  RST38h, there's a bug open, but it's gonna be hard to track down. definitely on akamai's side
Oct 28 11:03:46  yep
Oct 28 11:03:53  https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=3823
Oct 28 11:04:22  My guess that is just export control.
Oct 28 11:04:53  X-Fade, you can download via wget, but apt-get doesn't cope with 302 found redirects...
Oct 28 11:05:39  Ah, so it is not because china is 'the enemy' :)
Oct 28 11:12:26  hmm, attempting to pair bluemaemo with my desktop using kde seesm to bump into some issue. hcid claims "invalid pnp service record length"...
Oct 28 11:13:23  GeneralAntilles: Just edited the page: "Media" is rubbish as a title for "user/multimedia" (or, the even worse, "user/media". Floppy disks, CD ROMs, PNGs, Word documents etc. all get called "media" at some point.
Oct 28 11:13:43  I don't like multimedia at all.
Oct 28 11:13:50  Music certainly doesn't go in there.
Oct 28 11:13:58  entertainment?
Oct 28 11:13:59  "user/multimedia" is a sensible section name, IMNSHO. "Multimedia" or "Sound & Video" are also good for labels.
Oct 28 11:14:06  t_s_o: "Games" are entertainment
Oct 28 11:14:11  people know what multimedia is
Oct 28 11:14:15  GeneralAntilles: Then the i18n key should be "Sound & Video"
Oct 28 11:14:28  lardman: indeed - devices are advertised as "multimedia blah blah blah"
Oct 28 11:14:46  But I guess we've already got multimedia
Oct 28 11:14:55  Another thing to consider is the length of these labels..
Oct 28 11:15:10  Jaffa: I vote for Media
Oct 28 11:15:18  The longest now are "Sound & Video", "Location & Navigation" and "Internet & Networking"
Oct 28 11:15:21  They should be relatively short.
Oct 28 11:15:23  "Multimedia" is 1) long and 2) sounds so 90s...
Oct 28 11:15:24  RST38h: It's not a vote. It's a debate.
Oct 28 11:15:41  'communication' is the longest one we have currently.
Oct 28 11:15:41  X-Fade: Why do they need to be short, if the presentation of the category list is better?
Oct 28 11:15:42  Well, I do not much hope for a debate :)
Oct 28 11:15:45  RST38h: but is understandable, unlike media, which sounds like newspapers and tv reporting to me
Oct 28 11:15:52  Jaffa: Check you main menu ;)
Oct 28 11:15:53  X-Fade: "Network" or "Net" is shorter
Oct 28 11:15:59  X-Fade: ah, good point
Oct 28 11:16:01  RST38h, this is not a democracy :)
Oct 28 11:16:14  johnx: yea, that is what I meant :)
Oct 28 11:16:17  true, and his highness disagrees with us
Oct 28 11:16:24  ;)
Oct 28 11:16:30  lardman: he's chair - not emperor ;-)
Oct 28 11:16:31  Jaffa: I have no idea what the plans are for the menu, but it is something we need to consider at least.
Oct 28 11:16:32  lardman, that's another blog from you.
Oct 28 11:17:10 * Jaffa very strongly believes that "Media" is as generic as "Entertainment" or "Applications". And therefore useless in any form of taxonomy
Oct 28 11:17:21  I did say earlier that we shouldn't change existing categories without good reason
Oct 28 11:17:24  multimedia already exists
Oct 28 11:17:25  soooo
Oct 28 11:17:38  Jaffa, how about twomedia. :P
Oct 28 11:17:50  Anyway, not argument from me.
Oct 28 11:17:59  The only person who sees that name is the packager, the rest sees the i18n variant.
Oct 28 11:18:06  Which can be completely different.
Oct 28 11:18:23  Let's not get hung up on that.
Oct 28 11:18:23  GeneralAntilles: Nokia'll go and put a smell-o-matic in the N900 just to prove you wrong.
Oct 28 11:18:23  who wants multimedia anyway, we only need two categories: dsp programming, other programming
Oct 28 11:18:23  X-Fade: Exactly.
Oct 28 11:18:27  boo
Oct 28 11:18:29  lardman: :)
Oct 28 11:18:33  Then we can have threedia
Oct 28 11:18:49  GeneralAntilles: Is that Dia, Sodipodi & Inkscape?
Oct 28 11:19:12  Alright, multimedia it is.
Oct 28 11:19:20  lardman, dsp programming and boring things that no one cares about? more descriptive I think
Oct 28 11:19:32  3D screen? 3D haptic feedback? So you feel bumps on the screen? :)
Oct 28 11:19:47  johnx: yes, sounds good ;)
Oct 28 11:21:05  Do we have a conclusion on whether App Manager or the repo should force the section things appear in?
Oct 28 11:21:15  X-Fade: nokia has some patents and r&d to that
Oct 28 11:21:38  glass: Yes, I read that on engadget I think ;)
Oct 28 11:21:49  hm, did jaiku just die a horrible horrible death?
Oct 28 11:22:32  Jaffa, I still like Application Manager
Oct 28 11:22:48  But pull the list of acceptable packages from maemo.org
Oct 28 11:23:08  Stskeeps, bad gateway?
Oct 28 11:23:10  yeah
Oct 28 11:23:13  GeneralAntilles: Want to suggest that in the thread I restarted which mvo was participating in?
Oct 28 11:23:21  Beginning of the end of the world?
Oct 28 11:23:27  Jaffa, will do.
Oct 28 11:23:41  GeneralAntilles: i wouldn't really be surprised these days.
Oct 28 11:24:09  GeneralAntilles: Cool, ta.
Oct 28 11:24:18  GeneralAntilles: I guess the real question is: Do we want to add sections later or is this the permanent solution.
Oct 28 11:24:24  I think we'll notice the bombs going off when big datacenters start going down.
Oct 28 11:24:43  X-Fade, i.e., might we want to change the list later?
Oct 28 11:25:08  GeneralAntilles: Yes, because if it is in AM, that means releasing a new version.
Oct 28 11:25:11  And, *can* we easily change the list; without the resources to handle all the i18n?
Oct 28 11:25:30  X-Fade, like I said, it should fetch the authoritative list during a repository update.
Oct 28 11:25:50  Hrm
Oct 28 11:25:58  i18n will be a sticking point for Nokia.
Oct 28 11:26:07  We can probably hit a dozen languages from the community. . . .
Oct 28 11:26:36  I'm sure we can organize translation if we need to add a section.
Oct 28 11:27:17  email fired off to -developers
Oct 28 11:30:37  For missing i18n translation, default to Kli^H^H^HEnglish
Oct 28 11:30:52  Pig Latin?
Oct 28 11:30:54  May not be very elegant, but most people will understand it
Oct 28 11:31:07  Is there a word for multimedia in Latin?
Oct 28 11:31:08  GeneralAntilles: i kinda wonder what mvo meant by "please wake up", heh
Oct 28 11:33:49  Stskeeps, think qgil's asleep and we're all figments of his imagination? :D
Oct 28 11:34:08  Stskeeps, I think to say that deblet and (especially) the previous debian on tablet haven't ended up in many patches to maemo
Oct 28 11:34:22  ^
Oct 28 11:34:53  johnx: ah, to the "please wake up" thing or?
Oct 28 11:35:12  Yes
Oct 28 11:35:20  *nod*
Oct 28 11:35:28  well my perspective was that nokia wasn't interested
Oct 28 11:35:34  which they kinda seem like now though
Oct 28 11:36:33  I think they worry a lot about fracturing internally
Oct 28 11:36:57  it's been a big problem on almost every other linux-based device ever sold
Oct 28 11:37:05  except tivo :P
Oct 28 11:40:36  fracturing internally.. as in internal developer support or?
Oct 28 11:40:49  exactly
Oct 28 11:40:51  like, "why bother working on maemo when there's deblet" or something?
Oct 28 11:40:56  exactly
Oct 28 11:40:59  (extreme example)
Oct 28 11:41:15  not so extreme if you look at the zaurus community as I'm sure Nokia does
Oct 28 11:42:08  There were several incompatible distros at the height of zaurus popularity
Oct 28 11:45:58  the whole OABI/EABI stuff or?
Oct 28 11:46:22  GeneralAntilles: whilst replying to your email, I thought of another solution: an extra package which contains all the metadata which can be released independently of h-a-m.
Oct 28 11:46:56  So users will have to install a "categories update" package?
Oct 28 11:49:07  Stskeeps, Sharp's distro ("ROM" in zaurus-speak) had an old version of qtopia on framebuffer, then openzaurus forked qtopia because of license issues, but continued running on the framebuffer. Then there was pdaxrom which had x and gtk/qt but it was incompatible with a newer version of openzaurus that had switched to x and gtk, which was maintained in parallel with the qt/framebuffer version of openzaurus
Oct 28 11:49:16  *nod*
Oct 28 11:49:44  atleast it's a little more settled on maemo though
Oct 28 11:49:48  the outlines are the same in dist stuff
Oct 28 11:49:48  Stskeeps, now multiply by each distro having better or worse support for different machines with different orientations and resolutions
Oct 28 11:50:30  Fun stuff
Oct 28 11:50:34  I'm just saying I think this is what Nokia worries about, but doesn't want to talk about
Oct 28 11:50:49 * GeneralAntilles is kinda glad he never pulled the trigger on that SL-6000
Oct 28 11:52:16  GeneralAntilles, it's settled down to angstrom (ex-openzaurus) being pretty much the only maintained distro
Oct 28 11:52:40  things are getting better now, but it's too little too late as zaurus users/devs have moved on to other platforms for the most part
Oct 28 11:52:46  I had that thing sitting in my cart on Amazon for month.s
Oct 28 11:52:59  it's really nice hardware I hear
Oct 28 11:53:00 * w00t eyes Stskeeps
Oct 28 11:53:26  but hardware does not provide a good user experience by itself
Oct 28 11:53:52  and 64MB of RAM is not quite enough to comfortably surf the web
Oct 28 11:59:40  johnx: it's always that way - took a long while for support for all the hardware due to Sharp's closed nature
Oct 28 12:01:05  johnx: From Nokia's point of view it's not so bad though, there are lots of apps, they are reasonably easy to port and the system software is kept uptodate; that removed lots of the causes of the competition on the Zaurus
Oct 28 12:01:12  Jaffa, there is the point that section list updates wont occur all that frequently.
Oct 28 12:01:19  Especially after we get a finalized list for Fremantle.
Oct 28 12:02:18  Maybe another pro for the list-on-server approach is that it means anybody can get the list for any purpose?
Oct 28 12:02:50  lardman, exactly, they're doing a lot better than Sharp, but lack of updates for "end-of-lifed" machines is going to be a stumbling block, and API changes definitely won't win them new friends among the devs
Oct 28 12:02:50  If somebody codes up another package manager or some sort of package-browsing web application.
Oct 28 12:03:00  back in an hour...
Oct 28 12:03:30  GeneralAntilles: both good points. I was imagining "Categories Update" being a hidden dependency of h-a-m
Oct 28 12:04:20  So then you're still stuck waiting for an SSU push for a new list?
Oct 28 12:04:49  Why does the lsit need to be a dep, the AM should be able to run with whatever list it currently has cached
Oct 28 12:05:01  and it should just look to update it when ever it's online
Oct 28 12:05:12  or do we want to remove that overhead?
Oct 28 12:05:47  Just update whenever the repositories list is refreshed.
Oct 28 12:05:53  GeneralAntilles: No, just some normal upgrade
Oct 28 12:06:10  TBH, I think this is overengineering.
Oct 28 12:06:16  Likely
Oct 28 12:06:26  Stick it all in with the h-a-m and upgrade it if necessary
Oct 28 12:06:29  GeneralAntilles: I agree with you, update the list automatically whenever the user clicks update (for the package lists)
Oct 28 12:06:30  Jaffa: Imaging the breakage if someone removes the extras repository from their list ;)
Oct 28 12:06:48  Is it ever likely that we want to change the category list *so urgently* that it can't wait for a re-release?
Oct 28 12:06:54  X-Fade: :)
Oct 28 12:06:59  Unlikely
Oct 28 12:07:10  Jaffa: can the AM be upgraded?
Oct 28 12:07:23  X-Fade, well I figure it would be pulled in regardless of what's the catalog.
Oct 28 12:07:33  Wait, wait, why are you talking about updating category list at all?
Oct 28 12:07:42  GeneralAntilles: exactly, it has its own update path which is hidden from the users
Oct 28 12:07:59  Isn't it going to be generated dynamically based on whatever categories occur in the package lists?
Oct 28 12:08:05  no
Oct 28 12:08:15  Because then we're right back where we are now.
Oct 28 12:08:21  otherwise it could just be done automatically on the device
Oct 28 12:08:27  With Boingo as a category
Oct 28 12:10:21  Jaffa, so just embed the list in h-a-m?
Oct 28 12:12:38  GeneralAntilles: Or however it currently gets its i18n labels: extend it to include icons & descriptions, and then anything which doesn't match it gets put into "user/other"
Oct 28 12:13:12  Right, specifics are up to mvo. ;)
Oct 28 12:14:10  General: You can weed out "wrong" categories on repository submission
Oct 28 12:14:18  Absolutely no need to do it in the client
Oct 28 12:14:36  No you can't.
Oct 28 12:14:39  why?
Oct 28 12:14:40  What about Nokia repositories?
Oct 28 12:14:43  Or 3rd party?
Oct 28 12:14:47  Or J. Random 3rd Party
Oct 28 12:14:47  What about them?
Oct 28 12:15:01  Well, random 3rd party you can't do much about, just show whatever categories are there
Oct 28 12:15:02  They shouldn't fuck up the user's experience of the Application Manager
Oct 28 12:15:04  They can corrupt the category view.
Oct 28 12:15:17  general: they will not, why?
Oct 28 12:15:19  RST38h: Except we *can* do lots about it.
Oct 28 12:15:34  They will just show up as extra "Others" icons at the end
Oct 28 12:15:47  Jaffa: Just because you can do lots about something, does not mean you should
Oct 28 12:15:48  Without any i18n
Oct 28 12:16:05  RST38h: Of course. At the moment, we think we should.
Oct 28 12:16:29  Personally, I think the right categories should be checke don Nokai repos submissions
Oct 28 12:16:32  RST38h: you're being defeatist again ;)
Oct 28 12:16:32  We can solve the problem for good, quickly and easily.
Oct 28 12:16:32  Extras, etc
Oct 28 12:16:48  So we should solve it.
Oct 28 12:16:56  For 3rd party repos, allow whatever shit they have, but make them aware that they won't get nice icons in app manager
Oct 28 12:16:58  Not stupidly not solve it for stupid reasons.
Oct 28 12:17:01  Just a generic Unknown icon
Oct 28 12:17:17  Not getting nicely localized strings doesn't do shit as it stands
Oct 28 12:17:19  Icons wont change that.
Oct 28 12:17:19  why is that easier than just forcing them into the correct categories?
Oct 28 12:17:33  lardman: Just trying to warn people off megalomania
Oct 28 12:17:43  Pfft
Oct 28 12:17:48  lardman: Forcing people is wrong
Oct 28 12:17:55  As opposed to rejecting packages from the autobuilder for non-compliance?
Oct 28 12:17:57  RST38h: no, not in this case
Oct 28 12:18:07  This isn't about freedom of speech.
Oct 28 12:18:17  This is about a good user experience.
Oct 28 12:18:23  RST38h: it's annoying, people should follow the guidelines, if there's some compelling reason for them not to, we will listen
Oct 28 12:18:23  We're preventing lame packagers from screwing up the user experience.
Oct 28 12:18:26  This isn't. This is about fucking up people in general sense.
Oct 28 12:18:35  :rolleyes:
Oct 28 12:18:38  RST38h: no it isn't
Oct 28 12:18:50  I am totally ok about enforcing stuff in Nokia repos (i.e. Extras)
Oct 28 12:18:50  RST38h: Which people? Give an example of a valid use-case and I'll change my mind.
Oct 28 12:19:09  RST38h: there should be no other repos! ;)
Oct 28 12:19:10  But why everybody is so bent on forcing plunger up 3rd party repo holders?
Oct 28 12:19:12  Extras isn't a Nokia repository.
Oct 28 12:19:19  General: Ok, Maemo
Oct 28 12:19:19  What plunger?
Oct 28 12:19:23  No.
Oct 28 12:19:25  maemo.org
Oct 28 12:19:30  Maemo is Nokia.
Oct 28 12:19:39  Jaffa: Let us say there is some HAM guy with his own repo
Oct 28 12:19:47  Jaffa: And he marks packages as user/ham
Oct 28 12:19:59  or user/java
Oct 28 12:20:04  etc.
Oct 28 12:20:04  If they have issues with the package policy then they should address them.
Oct 28 12:20:19  Jaffa: Why so you want to prevent his packages from shownig in app manager?
Oct 28 12:20:27  Um?
Oct 28 12:20:29  s/so/do/
Oct 28 12:20:30  RST38h meant: Jaffa: Why do you want to prevent his packages from shownig in app manager?
Oct 28 12:20:36  No, they just end up in Others.
Oct 28 12:20:43  Bizarre conversation. . . .
Oct 28 12:20:55  Ok, so you want to classify anything else as Others?
Oct 28 12:21:01  Yes
Oct 28 12:21:09  This is slightly better than disallowing it
Oct 28 12:21:13  Just like you use 'All' now ;)
Oct 28 12:21:25  Bizarre. . . .
Oct 28 12:21:32  Would you consider making their user-defined category names subcategories of Others?
Oct 28 12:21:36  we were considering "non-conformant crap", but that was disallowed
Oct 28 12:21:43  RST38h, if you're not gonna bother to follow the discussion, then don't just in with random conclusions.
Oct 28 12:21:59  General: I am at work. Can't follow the whole discussion, sorry.
Oct 28 12:22:09  RST38h: Sub-categories which have a capital letter are shown un-i18ned ('Boingo', 'Canola' or some other J. Random crap app which is separated into a billion packages)
Oct 28 12:22:11  Then try not to jump out screaming.
Oct 28 12:22:12  RST38h: There is no i18n available for random categories. That is not very nice for non-english languages.
Oct 28 12:22:24  s/are shown/should be shown/
Oct 28 12:22:25  Jaffa meant: RST38h: Sub-categories which have a capital letter should be shown un-i18ned ('Boingo', 'Canola' or some other J. Random crap app which is separated into a billion packages)
Oct 28 12:22:29  RST38h: most of the discussion is on the mailing list
Oct 28 12:22:30  general: I try not to, most of the time.
Oct 28 12:22:51  X-Fade: I don't think anybody has problems with English category names
Oct 28 12:22:59  Never seen anyone complain
Oct 28 12:23:10  megalomania and fucking is a bit over the top.
Oct 28 12:23:35  RST38h: Well, then you really don't know much about user experience ;)
Oct 28 12:24:00  RST38h: It is just plain bad to force English on people.
Oct 28 12:24:40 * Jaffa goes to find some food.
Oct 28 12:24:47 * X-Fade too
Oct 28 12:26:20  Hrm, got this off-list (probably accidentally): I'd add something like user/science       Science        Scientific and engineering applications for things like Sysquake, Octave, R, 3D molecule display,
Oct 28 12:26:59  Probably not an unreasonable addition as we already have Education
Oct 28 12:27:06  Though I don't know what would go in there at the moment.
Oct 28 12:27:26  I suppose at worst it would simply remain unseen and unused.
Oct 28 12:27:27  Well Octave, R and Gnuplot exist, even if not in Extras yet
Oct 28 12:27:41  I think we shouldn't add too much categories.
Oct 28 12:27:54  I agree with that, what about sticking them in Education or Office?
Oct 28 12:28:14  Hrm
Oct 28 12:28:16  I'm really not sure about eductation either.
Oct 28 12:28:28  X-Fade: You are not forcing English on people, just allowing 3rd party repos have english-only cateories
Oct 28 12:28:40  RST38h: that's poor form
Oct 28 12:28:45  General: Why not rename Education to Science
Oct 28 12:28:46  ?
Oct 28 12:28:49  Well
Oct 28 12:29:01  RST38h, there are already packages in Extras which could go in Education
Oct 28 12:29:06  Why is Education even in there, what will go in it?
Oct 28 12:29:13  And there are some that could go to Science as well
Oct 28 12:29:19  and flash card games for 8-year-olds aren't Science
Oct 28 12:29:29  Ok, agreed
Oct 28 12:29:38  Then have two separate categories
Oct 28 12:29:42  do they even need a category though, Utilities/Accessories or the like
Oct 28 12:29:43  gcompris for one
Oct 28 12:29:58  let's stick HAM Radio Apps back in then on the off chance ;)
Oct 28 12:29:59  Why not make a separate category for gcompris? It is huge =)
Oct 28 12:30:04 * GeneralAntilles would rather not see gcompris's million-and-one language packs ever again.
Oct 28 12:30:11  RST38h: no!
Oct 28 12:30:12  Education
Oct 28 12:30:13  Done.
Oct 28 12:30:15  lardman: and don't forget model railroading!
Oct 28 12:30:21  lardman: and flashlights
Oct 28 12:30:23  OK, well, consider this
Oct 28 12:30:46  perhaps s/Office/Productivity
Oct 28 12:30:54  lardman: No.,
Oct 28 12:30:58  Current proposal is 11 categories
Oct 28 12:31:02 * aquatix isn't productive at office
Oct 28 12:31:18  In windowed mode, the current category view with Jaffa's patch shows
Oct 28 12:31:33  15 categories
Oct 28 12:31:41  12 without any scrolling at all
Oct 28 12:31:56  The 5th line has a few pixels worth of scrolling
Oct 28 12:32:21  So we've got room for one more category easy.
Oct 28 12:32:51  and 3 more after that if we shave a few pixels off the button height.
Oct 28 12:33:13  Though that doesn't consider non-English i18n.
Oct 28 12:33:43  Replace ugly text buttons with icons (with small inscriptions) and fit as many categories as possible without scrolling
Oct 28 12:33:47  lardman, I had proposed that, but freedesktop.org uses Office.
Oct 28 12:34:10  GeneralAntilles: let's see how it goes and we can make changes as we go along
Oct 28 12:34:21  lardman, now's the time. ;)
Oct 28 12:34:30  I think we should add user/science
Oct 28 12:34:49  If you have got ~700x400 space, it will be ~21x12 32x32 icons
Oct 28 12:34:53  I'd like to resolve as many categories as possible before we start changing code.
Oct 28 12:35:02  32x32 is too small
Oct 28 12:35:07  the code is generic, that's the point
Oct 28 12:35:09  ok, let us bump it up...
Oct 28 12:35:21  For reference, the statusbar icons are 40x40
Oct 28 12:35:22  10x6 64x64 icons is still 60 categories without scrolling
Oct 28 12:35:23  but yes, let's go with science then
Oct 28 12:35:39  General: Let us go with 64x64 - it is a standard Maemo size and should be large enough
Oct 28 12:36:26  I'd prefer a list/tree view down one side personally
Oct 28 12:36:44  lardman, honestly, I'd like to see several views implemented.
Oct 28 12:36:57  true
Oct 28 12:36:58  +1 gren
Oct 28 12:37:00  -r
Oct 28 12:37:11  yeah, several views would be cool
Oct 28 12:37:17  There's really no reason to force everybody to one view unless you come up with something that's just unbelievably, ridiculously awesome.
Oct 28 12:37:19  hello chaps
Oct 28 12:37:24  There's a shitton of room on the toolbar
Oct 28 12:37:25  treeview, grid (with and without icons?)
Oct 28 12:37:35  Just add a couple (normal small size) buttons on the right side.
Oct 28 12:37:44  GeneralAntilles, no 1 view suits all: a collection of data has many different ways of being displayed
Oct 28 12:37:57  https://wiki.maemo.org/User:GeneralAntilles/Improving_the_Application_manager
Oct 28 12:38:05  just one will do gen - it opens a small menu of options (see windows explorer...)
Oct 28 12:38:11  aquatix, those were my proposals.
Oct 28 12:38:20  GeneralAntilles: ah :)
Oct 28 12:38:29  Ew, dropdowns.
Oct 28 12:38:35  lcuk, Finder has buttons for each. :)
Oct 28 12:38:47  We're not going to have more than 3 views, though.
Oct 28 12:38:52  finder has a lot of free space
Oct 28 12:39:03  So having a text-dropdown isn't really all that useful
Oct 28 12:39:13  i dont mean text dropdown
Oct 28 12:39:19  As the longest text string will likely take up almost as much space as at least 2 icons.
Oct 28 12:39:29  and why only 3 - if i come up with a whizzbang new way of listing it - it should be available
Oct 28 12:39:40  icon-only dropdowns are clunky
Oct 28 12:39:43  likewise yourself - you could find a brilliant new way to organize them
Oct 28 12:39:57  lcuk, see Sketch's method of selecting brush size.
Oct 28 12:40:00  i dont just mean one or the other - but a way to select from available items is required
Oct 28 12:40:18  We've got plenty of room on the toolbar
Oct 28 12:40:28  If we need more than 3 views, then we cross that bridge when we come to it.
Oct 28 12:40:37  For now, I prefer the method that requires fewer taps.
Oct 28 12:40:43  but isnt this something you choose and then use?
Oct 28 12:40:59  its not like you jump around switching views (after you have chosen)
Oct 28 12:41:12  I do in Finder.
Oct 28 12:41:45  most people find the view they are comfortable with and continue to use it cos they anticipate where things will be
Oct 28 12:42:04  Then stick it in the application menu.
Oct 28 12:42:10  fine, np
Oct 28 12:42:12  yep, in the menu
Oct 28 12:42:13  s/tion/tion's/
Oct 28 12:42:13  GeneralAntilles meant: Then stick it in the application's menu.
Oct 28 12:42:32  just doesnt need buttons because as new views come along you will stress about placement
Oct 28 12:42:36  Menu: View -> List, Grid, Column
Oct 28 12:42:58  I don't think there will be a lot of new views coming, personally.
Oct 28 12:43:00  cloud
Oct 28 12:43:12  details
Oct 28 12:43:14  well people can of course submit patches
Oct 28 12:43:17  We've been stuck with the same shitty single-column list of buttons for two years.
Oct 28 12:43:27  and h-a-m has been open for all that time.
Oct 28 12:43:29  Despite it being a 3 line patch to make it better
Oct 28 12:43:45  Jaffa, after the flurry of patches over the last few days
Oct 28 12:43:47  (not wonderful, but at least the grid is less scrolly)
Oct 28 12:43:51  I was asking myself why it took so long.
Oct 28 12:44:00  motivation
Oct 28 12:44:05  Any chance on getting it to remember scroll position?
Oct 28 12:44:09  it's only a minor annoyance, down the bottom of my list of things to do
Oct 28 12:44:16  GeneralAntilles: not looked
Oct 28 12:44:37  That's less of an issue since the amount of scrolling has been drastically reduced, but still.
Oct 28 12:44:51  lardman, like most things - "mmnmmn that looks wrong" but by the time you have finished the thought you have done what you want
Oct 28 12:45:10  yep
Oct 28 12:46:27  GeneralAntilles: I was prompted by a) Mrs Jaffa being away on Sunday; b) not wanting to hack on code models for Valable; c) realising no-one else was doing it; d) it being a trivial patch; e) the package categories task meaning that there's some benefit of it in
Oct 28 12:47:53  pretends/some benefit of it in/some likelihood of it being useful/
Oct 28 12:50:37  jaffa, for such a simple tweak it might actually work - if it gets people looking inside the other categroies and asking questions thats a start
Oct 28 12:54:41  It's amazing how allnameswereout manages to involve _being American_ into every single discussion.
Oct 28 12:54:46  s/involve/bring/
Oct 28 12:54:46  GeneralAntilles meant: It's amazing how allnameswereout manages to bring _being American_ into every single discussion.
Oct 28 12:57:04  GeneralAntilles: url?
Oct 28 12:58:05  In this case: http://www.internettablettalk.com/forums/showpost.php?p=237259&postcount=100
Oct 28 12:58:35  snav needs to die already.
Oct 28 12:59:42  lol @ thread
Oct 28 12:59:54  glad I don't bother reading that one, would have sore sides all day
Oct 28 13:00:04 * RST38h anticipates a good troll
Oct 28 13:00:07  There are a bunch of spam posters now
Oct 28 13:00:28  GeneralAntilles: about background.. that does explain some things, i am quite sure some of my grumpiness comes from my 9 years in a irc support channel and helping people :P
Oct 28 13:00:29  They write up 3-page long posts full of rambling nonsense
Oct 28 13:00:45  Stskeeps, retail makes you hate people.
Oct 28 13:00:54  yes, it does
Oct 28 13:01:31  I had an old an old guy come in and ask me if I knew a pharmacy where they would develop nude photos.
Oct 28 13:01:39  "Octave" must be the worst named product in existence (looking at GeneralAntilles' change to Task:Package_categories - I *always* think it'll have something to do with music... but it doesn't, does it?
Oct 28 13:01:40  That was my 3rd week working there at the age of 16.
Oct 28 13:01:41  there's a reason we have a "hate customers".dk page
Oct 28 13:02:19  General: You want a sure method to make allnameswereout flinch?
Oct 28 13:02:27  Jaffa: no, but octaves are mathematical after all ;)
Oct 28 13:02:36  General: Ask him questions: where he works, what he does for living, how old he is
Oct 28 13:02:56  hola
Oct 28 13:03:01  Or the asshole that talked into a cellphone headset that wasn't connected to anything while he was checking or asking for information
Oct 28 13:03:04  He will probably end up being a variation of Darius
Oct 28 13:03:11  s/or/out or/
Oct 28 13:03:12  GeneralAntilles meant: Or the asshole that talked into a cellphone headset that wasn't connected to anything while he was checking out or asking for information
Oct 28 13:03:47  GeneralAntilles, you should have told the old guy you would develop his porn collection for him
Oct 28 13:04:33  lcuk, it's funny, I have an entirely different recollection of that experience than anybody else
Oct 28 13:05:06  lol - was it bad dodgy shifty?
Oct 28 13:05:24  I recall it raining outside and him having me backed up against the sales tablet with only the single light fixture directly above us lit.
Oct 28 13:05:27  :shudders:
Oct 28 13:05:37  I was such a sheltered kid back then, too. <_<
Oct 28 13:06:00  go on, add to the drama (you could sell the rights to this screenplay)
Oct 28 13:06:29  I'm convinced I need to get with my old manager and write a book at some point.
Oct 28 13:07:01  We used to carry a paperback called "What Cops Know" http://www.amazon.com/What-Cops-Know-Connie-Fletcher/dp/0671750402
Oct 28 13:07:08  "What Bookstore Clerks Know"
Oct 28 13:07:25  The Chronicles of Antilles : dodgy porn mac guy
Oct 28 13:07:39 * GeneralAntilles recalls the year the gay pride parade took place right out front.
Oct 28 13:07:47  http://notalwaysright.com/ <- `hate customers' ?
Oct 28 13:07:52  omg, that must have been terrifying
Oct 28 13:08:09  The St. Pete gay community aint the SF gay community, either.
Oct 28 13:08:13  all those gay people waving flags and having fun and cheering and getting on together
Oct 28 13:08:30  Actually, it was an interesting experience
Oct 28 13:08:44  The 300lbs sweaty guys in leather were a bit terrifying, though.
Oct 28 13:09:01 * qwerty12_N800 is reminded of Borat at Washington DC
Oct 28 13:09:02  heh - did you cower and weep?
Oct 28 13:09:10  a enterpreneaur/plant owner once told me of one guy he did some negotiations with, the guy was a very short fellow, but had in his office a very low seat for the visitor and a very high chair for himself
Oct 28 13:09:46  no wonder that the guy was an ahole
Oct 28 13:09:51  Hehe
Oct 28 13:09:59  It's interesting what you learn about people working retail
Oct 28 13:10:02  im reminded of the geek guy from wild hogs :D
Oct 28 13:10:08  I have a whole different view of educators now
Oct 28 13:10:10  this guy who told me this was 190cm or so and laughed about it
Oct 28 13:10:23  Elementary school teachers pretty much treat everybody they interact with like 3rd graders.
Oct 28 13:10:35  GeneralAntilles/lardman: I agree entirely with qgil's email about the meeting next week. GeneralAntilles: have fun with the admin ;-)
Oct 28 13:11:06  glass, putting yourself on level with someone has a very psychological effect, people do all sorts of things to get round it - the best i saw was a wheelchair that allowed raising and lowering so eye contact remained
Oct 28 13:11:32  Jaffa, that's 5 blogs for you.
Oct 28 13:11:44  lcuk: yeah but the effect fades if it's so obvious that he's trying to do it
Oct 28 13:12:07  Only problem I see with running the meeting is that Quim A. knows the people and B. knows the product and the infrastructure
Oct 28 13:12:14  lcuk: the raising wheelchairs give more independence too, being able to reach higher places
Oct 28 13:12:14  I do not.
Oct 28 13:12:39  in stupidly designed elevators etc
Oct 28 13:13:09  i guess they're expensive tho
Oct 28 13:13:17  There's still a lot of issues coming up in Sprints that I really don't have a clue about.
Oct 28 13:13:54 * GeneralAntilles glares at Nemien
Oct 28 13:13:59  good point glass - yes they are expensive - the one i saw was based on segway type technology and could alter its stance and remain balance
Oct 28 13:14:54  Perhaps Tero could sub in for Quim for that, though.
Oct 28 13:15:02  But has he been to a sprint yet?
Oct 28 13:15:24  GeneralAntilles: He should be there from now on.
Oct 28 13:17:28  Any bash gurus around who can tell me how to show only the duplicate lines in a file?
Oct 28 13:18:20  glass iBot : http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=muhUbfhZxlI
Oct 28 13:18:46  X-Fade: sort | uniq -d
Oct 28 13:19:25  Jaffa: Thanks, was focussing too much on sort ;)
Oct 28 13:19:32  :)
Oct 28 13:22:04  Damn. Run out of strong painkillers. That's unfortunate.
Oct 28 13:22:11  May have to leave work early. Ho hum.
Oct 28 13:22:36  GeneralAntilles: any big ideas on how to proceed with the whole fremantle / upstream thing? make proofs of concepts and show where problems arise, prototypes for base OS'es?
Oct 28 13:22:54  :( jaffa, i keep buying weak ones from nearby supermarket - they must think im addicted
Oct 28 13:23:15  and jaffa - notice how NOONE ever wants to send even tiny bits of videos anywhere ever
Oct 28 13:23:47  Stskeeps, I'd start with a wiki page outlining everything relevant you can think up off the top of your head in some detail.
Oct 28 13:23:49  ive seen lots of video type threads over the years, and dont think ive ever seen a request for example video fullfilled
Oct 28 13:23:54  GeneralAntilles: k
Oct 28 13:24:10  I think Nokia can probably handle the concrete stuff.
Oct 28 13:24:20  regarding maemo platform portability or "ideas for a base maemo"?
Oct 28 13:24:22  hmm, I emailed MetrO and asked if I could port the code for the tablets and they just flat out refused
Oct 28 13:24:37  Any upstream compatibility issues.
Oct 28 13:24:46  lardman, metro or -metro?
Oct 28 13:24:49  -metro
Oct 28 13:24:51  Stskeeps, Quim would be a good person to talk to about the best place to focus efforts, though.
Oct 28 13:24:52  just the kind of thing to annoy me enough to reverse engineer their format
Oct 28 13:24:53  imetro even
Oct 28 13:25:02  yeah, imetro, all that stuff
Oct 28 13:25:14  http://www.nanika.net/Metro/
Oct 28 13:25:28  yeah the one i looked at last night
Oct 28 13:25:58  It's hilarious how people want to hold on so tightly to their stupid public transportation maps.
Oct 28 13:26:01  seems like an odd thing - specially since they talk about utilization on devices and  stuff
Oct 28 13:26:20  GeneralAntilles, in all fairness, their service does cover pretty much all the world
Oct 28 13:26:24  looks like they sell their wares
Oct 28 13:26:36  lcuk, well, even individual transit system.
Oct 28 13:26:44  people seem to give them maps for free though
Oct 28 13:26:48  s/system/systems/
Oct 28 13:26:49  GeneralAntilles meant: lcuk, well, even individual transit systems.
Oct 28 13:26:57  no, the data is pretty much public already - go upstream from imetro and you will find it
Oct 28 13:27:08  from the same sources and providers imetro currently has
Oct 28 13:27:08  http://www.nanika.net/Metro/MetroS-en.html
Oct 28 13:27:11  Please, i have a big problem with my N810. The Nokia freeze on the boot (screen "NOKIA"). Someone have a solution ?
Oct 28 13:27:30  pop the battery for a while, put it back in and see
Oct 28 13:27:41  Don't work :(
Oct 28 13:27:46  if its still bad, take one reflashing and come back in the morning
Oct 28 13:28:08  lcuk: looks like individual contributors though http://www.nanika.net/Metro/MetroR-en.html
Oct 28 13:28:24  vincenzo88: reflash it
Oct 28 13:28:40  Ok i will search a methode to reflash :(
Oct 28 13:28:43  yes lardman, kindof like the cddb thing...
Oct 28 13:29:07  vincenzo88, its not the end of the world, and for future reference if you put required data on there keep a backup - same with all computers
Oct 28 13:29:20  ~flashing
Oct 28 13:29:21  well, flashing is http://wiki.maemo.org/Updating_the_tablet_firmware
Oct 28 13:30:04  lardman, i know about manchester metro, but i know nothing about your local one
Oct 28 13:30:14  Thanks for the link, i pray for its work
Oct 28 13:30:28  lcuk: I just find it annoying
Oct 28 13:30:30  thats why i said last night start simple with yous - if people find it useful they may start to offer their own
Oct 28 13:30:34  agreed 100%
Oct 28 13:30:56  vincenzo88, extremely rare that reflashing doesnt cure it
Oct 28 13:31:00  lcuk: I'll sit down and work out their database format, and then we (the community) can use their data and write an app
Oct 28 13:31:07  seems fair to me :)
Oct 28 13:31:27  sounds reasonable- they offer an offline app dont they
Oct 28 13:31:41  Ari Virtanen - someone knows who he is?
Oct 28 13:31:54  yep, that's the one to target, the online one could be used quite easily I expect
Oct 28 13:31:59  lunch time
Oct 28 13:32:12  Vice President, Convergence Products,
Oct 28 13:32:12  Multimedia, Nokia
Oct 28 13:32:26  hrw ^
Oct 28 13:32:40  Ari is (or it seems, was) a big level boss at N (far above anything technical)
Oct 28 13:33:20  aha
Oct 28 13:33:22  i must vanish also, nice chatting as always
Oct 28 13:33:23  bbl
Oct 28 13:34:00  There are two Aris related to the tablets: Ari Virtanen is more peripherally involved than Ari Jaaksi, AIUI
Oct 28 13:35:11  suihkulokki: happen to know why a ubuntu minbase seems more.. minimal, than a debian minbase debootstrap? did they do special work within this area?
Oct 28 13:36:17  (apologies for any weird questions today, at work and running a fever :)
Oct 28 13:36:51  GRumble... where did the "how to reflash the os" page went now ?
Oct 28 13:36:57 * melmoth hates wiki
Oct 28 13:37:16  you never find stuff you need in such a chaotic way or storing stuff
Oct 28 13:37:18  ~flashing
Oct 28 13:37:19  extra, extra, read all about it, flashing is http://wiki.maemo.org/Updating_the_tablet_firmware
Oct 28 13:37:26  It's right on the damn front page, melmoth.
Oct 28 13:37:27  Stskeeps: I presume the mojo minbase has been handbuilt
Oct 28 13:37:31  and in the Users section
Oct 28 13:37:38  and pops right up when you search for flashing
Oct 28 13:37:41  did you try to follow the link ?
Oct 28 13:37:55  suihkulokki: true, that's possible
Oct 28 13:37:58  The one infobot just linked?
Oct 28 13:38:01  suihkulokki: it seemed pretty functional though
Oct 28 13:38:01  yep
Oct 28 13:38:04  Yeah, works fine.
Oct 28 13:38:13  grumble
Oct 28 13:38:14  not here
Oct 28 13:38:19  Reload
Oct 28 13:38:22  Stskeeps: I doubt minimal ubuntu built using debootstrap (as done on normal install) is much different in size
Oct 28 13:38:33  ok. Works better
Oct 28 13:38:36  thanks
Oct 28 13:38:51  Stskeeps: you can do a "dpkg -l" in the ubuntu and debian and compare
Oct 28 13:39:06  yeah.. might eventually
Oct 28 13:45:03 * suihkulokki wonders if mojo nowdays is hiding any usefull patches
Oct 28 13:45:25  i hand-wrote the debootstrap script for hasty.. which they were hiding quite well how to debootstrap from
Oct 28 13:46:36      *  Removed qt-perl dependency since we're still finishing ARM + KDE
Oct 28 13:46:38      *  removed java and objc depends for arm
Oct 28 13:46:43  *yawn*
Oct 28 13:48:17  Stskeeps, you hand wrote it? I just changed the config to debootstrap hardy heron a little...
Oct 28 13:48:30  johnx: well, okay, butchered, maybe
Oct 28 13:49:24  i just wonder what deblet project position should be if nokia decides they want to pursue a open base platform (which would serve quite well in the distro ecosystem), - experimental ground to get to that point?
Oct 28 13:52:20  and ways to document the problems and why the changes should exist
Oct 28 13:53:04  well if the maemo GUI layer can be hosted easily on debian at that point, having a more "full" base system to install on SD would be a good goal
Oct 28 13:53:19  also, Nokia will always be farther behind than sid in picking up new software
Oct 28 13:54:31  true, but if it can be constructed in such a way it isn't difficult to change repos, for instance
Oct 28 13:54:47  i was thinking possibility of in-flash OS + aufs
Oct 28 13:54:54  so it overflows into sd
Oct 28 13:55:06 * GeneralAntilles sighs at allnameswereout bringing more randomness to the wiki.
Oct 28 13:55:46  actually I (and others) have been thinking about that for pandora, and it doesn't seem to have many benefits compared to root-on-sd
Oct 28 13:56:28  General: link?
Oct 28 13:56:54  it basically presents a lot of nightmare scenarios for inconsistent dpkg states
Oct 28 13:57:37  why is that so? consider readonly internal flash, write sd?
Oct 28 13:57:53  https://wiki.maemo.org/Task:Package_categories
Oct 28 13:58:03  Stskeeps, are we talking about being able to boot from flash and sd independently?
Oct 28 13:58:46  johnx: well, let's imagine a n810 scenario - have a rootfs in flash, that's read only, let changes register on internal SD
Oct 28 13:59:01  to revert to factory, erase internal SD
Oct 28 13:59:09  like on a livecd for instance
Oct 28 13:59:17  Stskeeps, so never writing to the internal NAND?
Oct 28 13:59:24  that's somewhat interesting I guess
Oct 28 13:59:26  johnx: that's a possibility
Oct 28 13:59:34  Looks harmless so far
Oct 28 13:59:34  maybe for SSU
Oct 28 13:59:59  after a couple SSUs most of your base system will be on SD though
Oct 28 14:00:06  General: But all this really made me think: Ok, everybody has his own category names and everybody wants their own
Oct 28 14:00:30  RST38h, "everyone wants to tell you what color to paint the barn."
Oct 28 14:00:43  General: Why not collect all the existing category names, form all sources, no matter how bizarre, and mape them internally to our categories?
Oct 28 14:00:52  Kinda like associative memory
Oct 28 14:01:04  johnx: AUFS seems to have some interesting features
Oct 28 14:01:08  I don't want to encourage invalid category usage
Oct 28 14:01:30  Other is punishment for not either A. Picking a valid category or B. Getting your category into the list of valid ones.
Oct 28 14:01:37  Might have a quick look at my tablet and see the craziest categories and where their packages would go
Oct 28 14:01:38  johnx: Oh, I have had lots of that - when a bunch of busybodies decided they wanted to "extend" .NES format
Oct 28 14:02:04  as long as they're painting the barn themselves I tend not to care
Oct 28 14:02:06 * RST38h left lots of people pissed then, especially considering their average age at the time =)
Oct 28 14:02:20  but *no one* tells me how to paint my barn :)
Oct 28 14:02:27  johnx: and as long as it is not your barn I assume
Oct 28 14:02:55  well, as long as they're willing to fork my barn first, then paint
Oct 28 14:03:10  General: it's not really an encouragment, just making app manager's guts a little bit smarter
Oct 28 14:03:13  10 minute countdown till you start talking about hay and cows..
Oct 28 14:03:22  'cause they will use wrong categories no matter what =(
Oct 28 14:03:34  Sts: moo? =)
Oct 28 14:03:37  hehe
Oct 28 14:03:40  RST38h, so you figure, eh?
Oct 28 14:03:41  Stskeeps, I used to do tech support. Be very afraid of how far I can extend an analogy...
Oct 28 14:03:53  Welll I've emailed with most of them and a lot of them have already switched to valid categories
Oct 28 14:03:54  Sooo . . . .
Oct 28 14:04:12  General: But new ones pop out daily! =)
Oct 28 14:04:19  Not really
Oct 28 14:04:22  Can't mail them all, especially if Maemo does become popular
Oct 28 14:04:35  I've got the same list of invalid categories I had 3 weeks ago
Oct 28 14:04:37  Besides
Oct 28 14:04:58  Invalid categories stem more from people not knowing the valid set than actively disobeying it.
Oct 28 14:05:01  Well, maybe you are right: if you absolutely force right categories people will end up adhering to them
Oct 28 14:05:10  Indeed
Oct 28 14:05:23  You were pretty insistent that people wouldn't use Extras a few months ago, too, as I recall.
Oct 28 14:05:28  Can a category be assigned during promotion to extras, using web interface?
Oct 28 14:05:32   you figure, eh?
Oct 28 14:05:36  General: Some still don't
Oct 28 14:05:38  But the honest truth is that most maintainers want to do The Right Thing.
Oct 28 14:05:40  s/.*//
Oct 28 14:05:48  Our friend pupnik for example ;)
Oct 28 14:05:54  There will always be outliers
Oct 28 14:06:06  Unix is all about 80% solutions :)
Oct 28 14:06:07  RST38h, that has nothing to do with him not wanting to, though.
Oct 28 14:06:22  He's certainly not running his own repository out of protest.
Oct 28 14:06:27  General: Last time I checked, he wasn't sure about quality
Oct 28 14:06:44  Time would seem to be the bigger factor.
Oct 28 14:07:38  X-Fade, hrm, can we do that? If a package is uploaded through the assistant and has an invalid category, can the uploader be offered a list of valid ones to pick from?
Oct 28 14:08:09  Then it can just be corrected by the assistant.
Oct 28 14:09:26  *or* it can be done by promoter
Oct 28 14:09:57  Stskeeps, think there is significant benefit in hacking around with LD_LIBRARY_PATH compared to using a chroot to run maemo apps in debian?
Oct 28 14:10:25  RST38h, it would leave ham's categories looking odd though if -devel is on the repository list
Oct 28 14:11:14 * GeneralAntilles sighs at Nokia not even being willing to apply a stupid fullscreen patch to control panel.
Oct 28 14:11:39  qwerty: true
Oct 28 14:11:42  it works great as well :(
Oct 28 14:11:49  so, they really have to be enforced starting with -devel
Oct 28 14:11:51  GeneralAntilles: I have just coded up the warning, but I guess I can change the .changes file..
Oct 28 14:11:55  The idiot product managers should just be straight with us (for once) and say that they wont accept patches for a particular product.
Oct 28 14:12:01  johnx: that's a good question.
Oct 28 14:12:08  johnx: we speaking maemo-gtk?
Oct 28 14:12:09  X-Fade, warning still works for dput?
Oct 28 14:12:20  GeneralAntilles: Warning in assistant.
Oct 28 14:12:23  Ah
Oct 28 14:12:29  johnx: it's good for proving that it's possible to run dual-gtk..
Oct 28 14:12:31  General: THAT would harm developer relations and make Quim's job more difficult
Oct 28 14:12:51  Stskeeps, well, maemo-gtk is the root. Debian's hildon is patched to not need maemo-gtk, right?
Oct 28 14:12:57  X-Fade, well, leave the warning for if they choose to ignore the option to switch to a valid category, then? :D
Oct 28 14:12:58  GeneralAntilles: If you use dput, then the warning will come from the autobuilder.
Oct 28 14:13:03  RST38h, hey, at least it would be honest.
Oct 28 14:13:07  johnx: well the define isn't enabled in configure, yeah
Oct 28 14:13:16  So, the right (from management point of view) way to deal with this is assure developers of good intentions and stonewall
Oct 28 14:13:19  GeneralAntilles: I can add a select box, should be doable.
Oct 28 14:13:23  johnx: fairly simple to enable though
Oct 28 14:13:32  General: You do not get promoted to management by being honest.
Oct 28 14:13:54  Stskeeps, ah well, I'll give this a shot and tell you if it's doomed
Oct 28 14:14:17  johnx: what example app are you trying with?
Oct 28 14:14:42  RST38h, well, the alternative is me beating them about the head and shoulders with a frozen trout until they are.
Oct 28 14:14:43  haven't gotten that far. I'm still reading af-defines.sh
Oct 28 14:15:06  k
Oct 28 14:15:08  suggestions?
Oct 28 14:15:30  I was thinking maemopad I guess
Oct 28 14:16:02  i guess it's a good way to test
Oct 28 14:16:29  one of the most maemo-y apps should be a good starting place
Oct 28 14:17:19  from compile or from binary, btw?
Oct 28 14:17:51  a maemo binary
Oct 28 14:18:04  k
Oct 28 14:18:25  I'm treating this as "learn by doing" :)
Oct 28 14:18:40  the wider experiment is recompiling maemo gtk but changing it into installing into other include dirs and lib dirs, and providing a pkg-config "maemo-gtk"
Oct 28 14:19:09  which points to right lib dirs and stuff
Oct 28 14:20:23  General: You want the real alternative?
Oct 28 14:20:48  Ship my own distribution so I don't have to deal with their nonsense.
Oct 28 14:20:59  GAblet
Oct 28 14:22:59  Stskeeps, yeah, that sounds like a better effort to sink time into. Let's see how far I get
Oct 28 14:25:03  GeneralAntilles, signed packages should not be tampered with (as far as I am aware - this is the point of signing)  i know the requirement is gone now, but if ppl still upload as signed we shouldnt touch them
Oct 28 14:25:12  ...then we can save weird hacks for things that can't be recompiled
Oct 28 14:25:47 * lcuk pushes his scrollbar to the bottom - sorry missed half a convo :S
Oct 28 14:26:03  lack of bacon, lcuk? :P
Oct 28 14:26:17  must be
Oct 28 14:28:35  lcuk, good point.
Oct 28 14:28:37  X-Fade? :P
Oct 28 14:28:55  heh
Oct 28 14:28:59  bbl
Oct 28 14:29:04  glad itt has stopped ;)
Oct 28 14:29:09  for now
Oct 28 14:29:18  Let's keep it as a warning for now.
Oct 28 14:29:30  Rgr
Oct 28 14:29:38  lcuk, allnameswereout never stops.
Oct 28 14:29:39  And present a link to the proper documentation.
Oct 28 14:33:04  Have we got a good google calendar alarm app for maemo yet?
Oct 28 14:34:03  dmsuperman, have you checked out mcalendar?
Oct 28 14:34:43  johnx: Yeah, it doesn't seem to sync
Oct 28 14:34:52  It seems _fantastic_ otherwise
Oct 28 14:34:53  johnx: i'll try to get some patches for maemo gtk+ to make it as i described
Oct 28 14:35:14  A perfect calendar app but it won't sync right with google calendar
Oct 28 14:35:23  Neither up nor down
Oct 28 14:37:14  dmsuperman, I'm sure it's supposed to. I think it's worth trying to contact the author of that app to try and get it sorted out
Oct 28 14:39:05  johnx: From what I hear it's a common problem, but I'll give that a try
Oct 28 14:39:23  It's not like it just plain doesn't work. Occasionally, if I do it manually, it'll download events
Oct 28 14:39:31  But never automatically, and it never syncs up to the calendar
Oct 28 14:47:04  johnx: think i'll get beaten up if i simply do the trick by changing api ver?
Oct 28 14:47:18  so it's pkg-config --libs gtk+-2.0-maemo and likes?
Oct 28 14:47:30  Priceless: http://www.advertka.ru/media/prints/15811/
Oct 28 14:47:33  not sure if it conflicts with -doc though
Oct 28 14:47:56  (made in Finland)
Oct 28 14:48:09  is there a reason that's better/easier than maemogtk+-2.0?
Oct 28 14:48:19  johnx: one line change
Oct 28 14:48:35  RST38h: is that a fake animal, right ?
Oct 28 14:48:44  and it is indeed, an api ver derivation
Oct 28 14:48:56  Stskeeps, sure, then why not? at least for testing
Oct 28 14:49:00  k
Oct 28 14:49:03 * Stskeeps starts buildin'
Oct 28 14:49:26  Wow, this application looks cool: http://maemo.org/downloads/product/OS2008/ecoach/
Oct 28 14:49:29  disco_stu: The title says "Care about your dog, not about its gastrointestinal parasites"
Oct 28 14:49:51  disco: so, yes, it is what you think it is
Oct 28 14:50:10  X-Fade: indeed
Oct 28 14:50:25  X-Fade: oh, cool, who is this guy?
Oct 28 14:50:32  3420B/s .. i wonder if mojo repos are running on maemo.org
Oct 28 14:50:44  RST38h: sampp
Oct 28 14:51:37  is he working for Nokia by any chance? This looks like an offshot of the Sportstracker
Oct 28 14:52:53  RST38h: I can only see if he has a @nokia.com address, which he has not. So probably not working for Nokia.
Oct 28 14:53:47  Stskeeps, if you're going to work on that, I'll take a stab at running stuff unmodified via any means necessary, unless there's anything I can do to help?
Oct 28 14:54:54  johnx: think i'll poke a bit at this for a while, maybe get a mojo up on the beagleboard
Oct 28 14:55:33  someone tried fennec in their n800 ?
Oct 28 14:56:05  disco_stu, someone did. There's a thread on iTT about it, but I haven't tried it
Oct 28 14:57:21  What mvo's idea to encode the categories as debtags? :)
Oct 28 14:58:10  johnx: i wonder though, what's the majority of changes in maemo gtk, the extra API or the optimization/"more suitable for embedded" though
Oct 28 14:58:46  X-Fade: ENOCONTEXT
Oct 28 14:59:42  tuukkah: http://wiki.maemo.org/index.php?title=Task:Package_categories&diff=0&oldid=8069
Oct 28 14:59:56  Oh, FFS. Why should 'ah: ' do that. Silly IRC client
Oct 28 15:00:01  s/tuukkah/ah/
Oct 28 15:01:15  Stskeeps, have yo seen this: http://live.gnome.org/Maemo/MaemoGtkChanges ?
Oct 28 15:01:24  yeah
Oct 28 15:01:42  Jaffa: detags section in wiki page.
Oct 28 15:03:19  johnx: i've suggested the "apiver" change on the bug report dealing with seperate gtk vers
Oct 28 15:03:37  let's see what they say
Oct 28 15:07:50  Stskeeps, going from that list, one of the things I ran into was actually probably not a maemo-specific API change per se, but the fact that they made a private API available and it changed in gtk 2.12 (or 2.14?)
Oct 28 15:08:17  which one of them?
Oct 28 15:09:17  something to do with gtkfile* something I believe
Oct 28 15:09:27  ah, the filechooser :P
Oct 28 15:10:00  I'd get you the exact error but apparently my OE build machine is down :/
Oct 28 15:10:13  can someone in Canada hit the reboot button on a machine for me?
Oct 28 15:10:52  How hard hit would you like? (in Mt)
Oct 28 15:11:20  RST38h, I need to *use* the server *after* you hit it. Adjust accordingly
Oct 28 15:11:48  That would be problematic =)
Oct 28 15:11:58  I need to use it as something besides a semi-permanent night-light that is
Oct 28 15:13:50  what kind of work are you doing, if it is not a secret of course?
Oct 28 15:14:14  RST38h, my day job?
Oct 28 15:14:24  yea
Oct 28 15:14:32  I'm an English teacher :)
Oct 28 15:14:49  johnx: whats your age ?
Oct 28 15:14:51  oh, i thought you were doing some tech stuff
Oct 28 15:14:52  Ah, had to guess that =)
Oct 28 15:15:04  disco_stu, 25. And you?
Oct 28 15:15:08  23
Oct 28 15:15:17 * aquatix feels old at 26
Oct 28 15:15:19  Stskeeps, oh, I was. Probably will again.
Oct 28 15:15:22  haha
Oct 28 15:15:35 * RST38h is an old fart
Oct 28 15:15:41  <- 24, student programmer at some uni, getting my masters degree in september in comp.sci :P
Oct 28 15:15:46  past the crucifixion age too
Oct 28 15:16:12 * aquatix has actually no idea what age that is
Oct 28 15:16:19  34?
Oct 28 15:16:21  or something
Oct 28 15:16:27  Stskeeps: i'm becoming a software engineer soon
Oct 28 15:16:36  well.. not that soon..
Oct 28 15:16:51  <- school and him didn't mix. Got a job as a sys-admin, loved it. Got lured to Japan for a couple years with my then-girlfirend, now-wife
Oct 28 15:17:28  aquatix: 36
Oct 28 15:17:34  johnx: is she native? =)
Oct 28 15:17:38  ah :)
Oct 28 15:17:48  RST38h: that's not old ;)
Oct 28 15:17:56  RST38h, She's a native of the US actually
Oct 28 15:18:28  johnx: an Indian?
Oct 28 15:18:41  (is that the right word?)
Oct 28 15:18:45  aquatix, well, not what I meant :P
Oct 28 15:18:49  Indean
Oct 28 15:18:52  ghehe
Oct 28 15:18:59  "feathers, not dots"
Oct 28 15:19:02  RST38h: hm, interglot says Indian
Oct 28 15:19:35  i'm trying to get a keyboard for my n800
Oct 28 15:19:41 * aquatix thinks only Indians are US natives ;)
Oct 28 15:19:43  anyone used those folding kb's ?
Oct 28 15:19:57  disco_stu: i have an iGo
Oct 28 15:19:57  aquatix, really, nobody is native to anywhere.
Oct 28 15:20:01  GeneralAntilles: true
Oct 28 15:20:02  aquatix, depends on how you define "native"
Oct 28 15:20:15  we're all from Afrika/Asia
Oct 28 15:20:19  One group of people or another was always the invaders at some point.
Oct 28 15:20:20  aquatix: cant find igo's here
Oct 28 15:20:20  you either say "no one is native" or "everyone is native of *somewhere*"
Oct 28 15:20:32  disco_stu: yeah, they kinda stopped selling them :(
Oct 28 15:20:42  General: yes but they are not the same people as the ones that have been born from them
Oct 28 15:20:44  I'd say native meaning "born there" seems like a reasonable definition.
Oct 28 15:20:47  aquatix: im in argentina :(
Oct 28 15:21:00  disco: Any BT keyboard will do
Oct 28 15:21:08  disco_stu: can't you let them mail you one?
Oct 28 15:21:11  disco: I went for Apple one
Oct 28 15:21:17  disco_stu: i got mine from the US too, through internet
Oct 28 15:21:23  RST38h, how's the koolaid?
Oct 28 15:21:29  dont know
Oct 28 15:21:43  johnx: mmm? =)
Oct 28 15:22:04  RST38h, all apple produkts come with the free koolaid, right?
Oct 28 15:22:25  johnx: only with a reality distortion field ;)
Oct 28 15:22:26  johnx: I haven't found any. maybe inside, instead of silicon? =)
Oct 28 15:22:30 * aquatix hides
Oct 28 15:22:50  but the apple bt keyboard is quite nice
Oct 28 15:22:51  the keyboard looked pretty harmless in fact. had a little dent at the left side, god knows why
Oct 28 15:23:07  RST38h: second hand?
Oct 28 15:23:12  Is it really bad form to let other people read an email addressed just to you?
Oct 28 15:23:16  nope, new, from best Buy
Oct 28 15:23:27  i can find a bt keyboard for 250, and i can get an asus eeepc for 350
Oct 28 15:23:28  so, RST38h, then I have to ask: What's your day job?
Oct 28 15:23:29  lardman: depends
Oct 28 15:23:32  lardman: I would ask your correspondent first
Oct 28 15:23:39  hmm
Oct 28 15:23:42  johnx: Software engineer in Intel ZAO
Oct 28 15:23:57  johnx: Which is Intel's subsidiary in Moscow
Oct 28 15:24:05  ZAO?
Oct 28 15:24:08  ah :)
Oct 28 15:24:28  In which case I'll quote - told that they won't share sources, I said I wasn't too bothered about the sources, just the db format, and I was told this: "You wouldn't go very far with only the data format, unless you don't mind waiting a few minutes for a route calculation."
Oct 28 15:24:34  and then told that the db format is also closed
Oct 28 15:25:24  so the question is, do they think I'll be crap at writing routing code (and I'll be offended) or that they either pre-generate routes, or do it remotely (in which case it's interesting)
Oct 28 15:25:25  aquatix: abbreviation for a company that is not publicly traded
Oct 28 15:25:51  not sure what English equivalent will be
Oct 28 15:25:53  lardman, well they can't do it remotely, right?
Oct 28 15:26:03  johnx: I don;'t think so anyway
Oct 28 15:26:17  RST38h: ah, i see
Oct 28 15:26:17  well, does routing work while offline? if yes, then...
Oct 28 15:26:36  RST38h, private limited company afaik
Oct 28 15:26:43  lardman: Who are these guys?
Oct 28 15:26:43  RST38h, ah, the fun of trying to translate company names :)
Oct 28 15:26:52  qwerty: Ah, LTD?
Oct 28 15:26:53  RST38h: metro people
Oct 28 15:27:02  lardman: i missed the name of the app you're talking about; is that the nokia wayfinder?
Oct 28 15:27:13  lardman: ah :)
Oct 28 15:27:17  lardman: Are you talking subway map routing? (sorry)
Oct 28 15:27:23  yes
Oct 28 15:27:28  but indeed, they seem to imply you suck at writing routing code
Oct 28 15:27:39  but maybe they have additional routing info
Oct 28 15:27:40  RST38h, yeah
Oct 28 15:27:47  good, that annoys me and makes me even more likely to reverse engineer it
Oct 28 15:27:48  well he does - else he wouldnt be asking for theirs :P
Oct 28 15:27:53  lardman: :)
Oct 28 15:27:54  johnx: The bottom line is that we are Intel, just getting paid in rubles at 1/2 the US salary rates :)
Oct 28 15:28:00  lcuk: :p
Oct 28 15:28:04 * aquatix would like to see MetrO OSS
Oct 28 15:28:19  qwerty: You can do your own routing pretty easily
Oct 28 15:28:23  http://www.nanika.net/Metro/ is the url
Oct 28 15:28:27  lardman: lol
Oct 28 15:28:30  heh - go lardman, in england reverse engineering a locked in data format is *only* 4 years in prison nowadays isnt it?
Oct 28 15:28:33  qwerty: There is already an app that does it for Moscow subway. Want a link?
Oct 28 15:28:39  lardman: that's the MetrO i talked about
Oct 28 15:28:44  lardman: they're weird
Oct 28 15:28:52  lcuk: it's not locked as far as I can tell, it's also freely downloadable
Oct 28 15:28:57  lardman: i offered help porting their app to uiq3
Oct 28 15:29:00  or even just beta testing
Oct 28 15:29:03  RST38h, it's lardman reversing it , not me :)
Oct 28 15:29:04  they flat out refused
Oct 28 15:29:09  ah
Oct 28 15:29:12  RST38h, does the cost of living scale in the same way? I don't mind saying that it's quite insane here...
Oct 28 15:29:24  lardman: Want a link to the one made for Moscow? (you can talk to its author too)
Oct 28 15:29:24  aquatix: same here, I asked if I could port it to the tablets, they said no
Oct 28 15:29:37  RST38h: yeah go on
Oct 28 15:29:51  lardman, with a pretty clear disclaimer, i think you would be better looking at it, expanding on it and then building yourown data unencombered from the reach of their eula and lawyers
Oct 28 15:30:06  johnx: it is quite insane here too, but we own our appartment, taxes are 13%, so it is not prohibitively expensive
Oct 28 15:30:07  lardman: i rather like the app, but the attitude of the developer(s?) isn't too friendly
Oct 28 15:30:34  lcuk: getting the data is the problem I think
Oct 28 15:30:38  johnx: most money is being spent on the school and house cleaning help
Oct 28 15:30:47  now if a random blob appeared on the table i might take a peek and poke at it and see what connections it makes
Oct 28 15:30:48  lardman: mind using metro information from openstreetmap ? Should be not that complicated.
Oct 28 15:30:56  lardman - OSM has same problem - cddb has same problem
Oct 28 15:31:04  open source communities overcome them
Oct 28 15:31:26  melmoth: does it exist?
Oct 28 15:31:26  Remember the test i made with sayhoo for paris , that ended up eating too much memory ? With only subway station data, it should be usable without using all the memory of the tablet
Oct 28 15:31:36  start with a simple to use and simple to update format that works for your local route requirements and expand from there
Oct 28 15:31:40  RST38h, ah, you have someplace big enough to need house cleaning? madness :P
Oct 28 15:31:42  lardman: did you look at the downloadable db's?
Oct 28 15:31:50  lardman: i know that i had subway station in the data i fetche from osm
Oct 28 15:31:51  melmoth: yes, routing on subways is very simple, which is why I feel I can be offended
Oct 28 15:31:55  lardman: are they encrypted or something?
Oct 28 15:32:06  melmoth: ok, I'll look into it
Oct 28 15:32:20  aquatix: don;'t know yet, might just be simple Palm dbs for all I know
Oct 28 15:32:25  lardman: https://garage.maemo.org/projects/metromap/
Oct 28 15:32:28  lardman: yeah
Oct 28 15:32:31  johnx: ~112m^2
Oct 28 15:32:47  RST38h, let me convert that into tatami mats...
Oct 28 15:32:55  \o/ yayyyy 1000% times better to look at truely open alternatives ;)
Oct 28 15:32:58  johnx: And it gets messed up pretty quick, with two children and somewhat hostile outside environment
Oct 28 15:33:09  johnx: *9 will give you square feet
Oct 28 15:33:14  the children would do it I suppose :)
Oct 28 15:33:29  RST38h: no source
Oct 28 15:33:33  bbl
Oct 28 15:33:38  RST38h, sadly I really do think in terms of tatami mats now...
Oct 28 15:33:42  lardman: You remember wazd here?
Oct 28 15:33:42  RST38h: any idea how up-to-date the info from metromap is?
Oct 28 15:33:47  lardman: He is the author
Oct 28 15:33:56  RST38h: ok, is he about these days?
Oct 28 15:34:12  aquatix: it is up to date - the last station opened a few months ago :)
Oct 28 15:34:19  lardman: Dunno, check!
Oct 28 15:34:21  ah, it's python anyway from the looks of it, no problem
Oct 28 15:34:27  You can contact him via garage too
Oct 28 15:34:42  ~seen wazd
Oct 28 15:34:45  wazd  was last seen on IRC in channel #maemo, 86d 25m 48s ago, saying: 'from the tablet'.
Oct 28 15:34:52  RST38h: because for example in amsterdam, the trams tend to change route once in a while
Oct 28 15:35:15  johnx: Oh, I came to the point where visiting US feels weird
Oct 28 15:35:21  or is this purely metro?
Oct 28 15:35:30 * aquatix should just install and try
Oct 28 15:35:38  GeneralAntilles: your last email raises another advantage of you at least co-chairing the next meeting: you can give Quim an action to enable more Nokia collaboration on all the stuff we're talking about with the App Mgr. It's gone beyond just changing the categories and the community are now leading the way - potentially down a blind alley.
Oct 28 15:35:42  aquatix: It is fucking subway. The trains are the size of your normal intercity train
Oct 28 15:35:58  aquatix: They run in tunnels too =)
Oct 28 15:36:07  RST38h: myeah, i meant that MetrO from nannika.net has bus and tram info too
Oct 28 15:36:10  quite useful
Oct 28 15:36:13  aquatix: bus routing would also be useful, if available
Oct 28 15:36:22  yes
Oct 28 15:36:25  lardman: my point exactly :)
Oct 28 15:36:26  I am pretty sure it can do buses as well but bus routes change too frequently
Oct 28 15:36:33  RST38h: yeah
Oct 28 15:36:46  RST38h: hmm, not that often though
Oct 28 15:36:47  that's why it would be nice if MetrO's people would cooperate
Oct 28 15:37:02  they have a network of people that refresh the info
Oct 28 15:37:08  aquatix: The routing problem is very very simple
Oct 28 15:37:16  RST38h: true
Oct 28 15:37:24  it's more about the data
Oct 28 15:37:30  aquatix: As for the data sources, local transportation authority tries to keep all bus routes up to date on their web site
Oct 28 15:37:35  aquatix: indeed, looks like people do the refreshing for free (http://www.nanika.net/Metro/MetroR-en.html and http://www.nanika.net/Metro/MetroC-en.html)
Oct 28 15:37:40  I am pretty sure UK is no different
Oct 28 15:37:44  lardman: yeah
Oct 28 15:37:48  RST38h: true
Oct 28 15:37:53  RST38h: same here in the netherlands
Oct 28 15:37:55  also need the route times
Oct 28 15:38:03  i.e. length of routes in minutes
Oct 28 15:38:11  doesn't google do bus routing btw?
Oct 28 15:38:22  lardman: no schedules at the web site?
Oct 28 15:38:29  i can find a bt keyboard for 250, and i can get an asus eeepc for 350
Oct 28 15:38:34  RST38h: I don't want to look at a website
Oct 28 15:38:49  http://www.gvb.nl/english/travellers/timetables/Pages/vertrektijden.aspx <- amsterdam data
Oct 28 15:38:52  I could always get a paper timetable ;)
Oct 28 15:38:52  lardman: Why not? You are not looking, your app is
Oct 28 15:39:10  RST38h: yeah, so I need to write the code to scrape the websites too
Oct 28 15:39:12  RST38h, wait, 112m^2? O_o
Oct 28 15:39:21  johnx: Yea
Oct 28 15:39:25  RST38h: I thought using existing data would be better all round
Oct 28 15:39:44  johnx: This includes two balconies, two baths, kitchen, etc though
Oct 28 15:39:47  RST38h: i'd prefer an offline solution
Oct 28 15:40:03  lardman,aquatix: Make it update once a week, no problem there
Oct 28 15:40:07  otherwise i could as well visit a site
Oct 28 15:40:10  aquatix: yeah I was talking off line too; scrape create db, use off line
Oct 28 15:40:20  RST38h: need to write a scraper though then
Oct 28 15:40:30  lardman: :)
Oct 28 15:40:32  RST38h: you understimate the amount of work required to do the scraping
Oct 28 15:40:41  scraping sucks
Oct 28 15:40:45  aquatix: it is easier than making a bunch of humans surrender their "IP" to you
Oct 28 15:40:46  and is slightly illegal iirc
Oct 28 15:40:57 * RST38h scapres regularly in different projects
Oct 28 15:41:05 * aquatix too
Oct 28 15:41:08  but still
Oct 28 15:41:52  RST38h, at best guess I'd say roughly a fifth of that if you're curious :)
Oct 28 15:42:44  johnx: you are not trying to say you have got a 22m^2 pad?
Oct 28 15:43:28  RST38h, less than that if you're only counting open floor space
Oct 28 15:43:43  that is disturbingly smaller than an average shipping container
Oct 28 15:43:53  ha!
Oct 28 15:44:03  but shipping containers don't have plumbing and insulation
Oct 28 15:44:23  you have no idea what a Tokyo-area apartment is like, huh?
Oct 28 15:44:33  I am now afraid to imagine
Oct 28 15:44:50  Been to Taiwan, seen those rows of corroded 2/3-floor appartment blocks
Oct 28 15:45:53  ~seen dannym
Oct 28 15:45:56  dannym  was last seen on IRC in channel #maemo, 18d 6h 39m 20s ago, saying: 'hi'.
Oct 28 15:46:55  johnx: how big is the rent anyway?
Oct 28 15:47:00  johnx: that's... claustrophobic
Oct 28 15:47:53  aquatix, you get used to it, or you go gibbering mad. I'll leave you to decide which happaned to me :D
Oct 28 15:48:11  you got used to be gibbering mad?
Oct 28 15:49:45  do pdb files have a standard structure?
Oct 28 15:50:46  lardman: no
Oct 28 15:51:03  iirc
Oct 28 15:51:05  so it's just an extension, nothing else
Oct 28 15:51:10  wierd
Oct 28 15:51:13  wait
Oct 28 15:51:33  http://www.nicholson.com/rhn/pilot/pdb.txt
Oct 28 15:52:08  cool, so it is structured, nice
Oct 28 15:53:22  i hope that's usable with metro's db's
Oct 28 15:53:36  lardman: keep me posted, it's interesting :)
Oct 28 15:54:01  I'll write some code this evening and see if I can parse their database
Oct 28 15:54:54  it appears that the strings are stored seperately from the other data
Oct 28 15:54:58  doesn't look too hopeful
Oct 28 15:55:54  http://search.cpan.org/~bdfoy/p5-Palm-1.009/lib/PDB.pm
Oct 28 15:56:39  hm
Oct 28 15:57:20  http://www.nsbasic.com/palm/info/technotes/TN02a.htm is good for the format, though not sure whether that's the one
Oct 28 15:59:09  lardman: looks helpful at least
Oct 28 15:59:25  yeah, but take a look at the db with a hex editor :(
Oct 28 15:59:51  I can't even see a coherent record structure unless it's stored in memo-type fields, with all text data in one record
Oct 28 16:00:04  like every single station name in the same record
Oct 28 16:00:33  meh
Oct 28 16:00:39  i think they encrypted it somehow
Oct 28 16:00:50  no, the text is plain
Oct 28 16:00:59  the structure is awkward though
Oct 28 16:01:48  ah
Oct 28 16:01:58  good luck :)
Oct 28 16:02:09 * aquatix focuses on his thesis for a few minutes
Oct 28 16:02:13  I'll just fall back to doing the London tube I think
Oct 28 16:02:25  hrm
Oct 28 16:03:56  Hi, rm_you. :)
Oct 28 16:04:10  hi rm_you :D
Oct 28 16:04:46  aloha rm_you
Oct 28 16:04:46  lol
Oct 28 16:04:52  Wait, that should be s/:)/*eg*/
Oct 28 16:05:07  I need to come around more <_<
Oct 28 16:05:15  moo, rm_you
Oct 28 16:05:56  rm_you, that you do, as I've got a backlog of evil things and it would behoove you to keep me busy so it doesn't grow longer. :P
Oct 28 16:06:02  lol
Oct 28 16:06:20  I may have time over thanksgiving break <_<
Oct 28 16:06:33  cause i'll be in houston with my GF but she
Oct 28 16:06:51  *she'll be gone for a day or two at her cousin's wedding
Oct 28 16:06:56  so i'll be sitting around bored
Oct 28 16:08:58  http://slexy.org/view/s21A7eAfkp
Oct 28 16:09:40  johnx: so my xmas break will pretty much exactly coincide with yours :)
Oct 28 16:09:50  18th-5th
Oct 28 16:09:56  off by a day
Oct 28 16:27:39  does anybody know whats up with the nokia windows flasher app? suddenly telling me that my clock isnt set right on the windows machine and refuses to go any further
Oct 28 16:27:42  ??
Oct 28 16:28:04  is your clock set right?
Oct 28 16:28:08  yes
Oct 28 16:28:17  a friend just a got a n810
Oct 28 16:28:24  and i was helping him flash it to diablo
Oct 28 16:28:27  but no go
Oct 28 16:33:15  Windows flasher is something Nokia will need to sort out if they plan to appeal to non-hackers
Oct 28 16:33:52  Ideally people will have to deal with it less with Fremantle
Oct 28 16:34:14  yep
Oct 28 16:36:25  I don't know how anybody uses Firefox on PPC
Oct 28 16:36:28  It is dog slow for me.
Oct 28 16:42:56  maybe the pr0n sites you are trying to surf and just busy
Oct 28 16:43:09  s/and/are/
Oct 28 16:43:10  Proteous meant: maybe the pr0n sites you are trying to surf are just busy
Oct 28 16:43:37  Yeah, www.proteousxxx.com is going slow for me
Oct 28 16:43:55  doh, I'll check into that
Oct 28 16:44:04  Thanks, I was missing it
Oct 28 16:45:12  I didn't take you for a irish amputee on horses kind of guy
Oct 28 16:45:43  Yeah, I needed the most outlandish stuff and only your site provided me with that
Oct 28 16:56:03  i'll use the linux flasher
Oct 28 16:56:05  :)
Oct 28 16:56:24  Good choice :P
Oct 28 16:58:21  and i have the image ... so easy right?
Oct 28 16:59:50  andre___: ping
Oct 28 17:00:53  moontiger, chances are your clock ISNT right - daylight savings just changed -  did you change clock manually or did you let it adjust itself
Oct 28 17:01:04  why should it care?
Oct 28 17:01:11  cos then its an hour out
Oct 28 17:01:27  i dont make the rules, but know software can be "picky" about such things
Oct 28 17:01:39  which is important when going to a wedding, not when flashing a device
Oct 28 17:01:43  imo
Oct 28 17:01:44  DST didn't do anything here.
Oct 28 17:01:51  100% agree lard
Oct 28 17:02:28  speaking of which, are you hhaving a linux or a windows wedding?
Oct 28 17:02:40  no idea
Oct 28 17:02:42  !
Oct 28 17:02:50  heh
Oct 28 17:03:18  free beer sounds good though
Oct 28 17:03:38  linux weddings should be the norm - delivery truck brings one of every sort of food and lets the guests make their own
Oct 28 17:03:50  and beer
Oct 28 17:03:53  yes, lots of beer
Oct 28 17:04:11  lcuk: open source wedding, maybe.
Oct 28 17:04:12  i wonder what horrors a microsoft wedding would bring.   *shudder*
Oct 28 17:04:14  honeymoon, not so much
Oct 28 17:04:23  It's cold today.
Oct 28 17:04:35  yes nemo, honeymoons must be closed source
Oct 28 17:04:40  with logging disabled
Oct 28 17:04:48  hello world
Oct 28 17:05:00  and no irc :P
Oct 28 17:05:00  anyone know where one finds the normal -dbg repos for debian?
Oct 28 17:06:45  lcuk ... im on pst and i did an auto time update
Oct 28 17:06:53  the tablet is set to pst too
Oct 28 17:07:04  i think its the nokia servers being set back or sometine
Oct 28 17:07:23  *something
Oct 28 17:07:39  fair enough moontiger, i just know i've fallen over iwth that in the past - and if it was a simple fix then you couldv carried on
Oct 28 17:08:02  yeah i hear you ... and i tried all that ... ithink its def a bug in the nokia software
Oct 28 17:08:18  i havent used the linux flasher but im hoping it wont have the same issues
Oct 28 17:08:36  ~flash
Oct 28 17:08:40  ~flashing
Oct 28 17:08:41  hmm... flashing is http://wiki.maemo.org/Updating_the_tablet_firmware
Oct 28 17:08:45  damn!!
Oct 28 17:08:45  :)
Oct 28 17:08:56  thnx :)
Oct 28 17:09:15  its one of my students who bought a tablet after my recommendation
Oct 28 17:09:24  so i want to help him get it flashed to diablo
Oct 28 17:09:38  2 people said they kept clicking repeatedly at the time message and said that worked :P
Oct 28 17:10:11  Hello !
Oct 28 17:10:39  help?
Oct 28 17:11:06  flasher3 static?
Oct 28 17:11:18  command not found
Oct 28 17:11:36  hey Khertan_n810 :)
Oct 28 17:11:40  moontiger: the normal flasher-3.0 should be ok
Oct 28 17:11:48  ok thnx qwerty12
Oct 28 17:12:06  hi moontiger
Oct 28 17:12:20  then chmod +x flasher?
Oct 28 17:12:37  yeah
Oct 28 17:12:51  schweet :)
Oct 28 17:13:54  error: (104, 'Connection reset by peer')
Oct 28 17:13:58  rahhhhhhhh !!!!!!
Oct 28 17:14:11  i ll make a murder !!!!
Oct 28 17:14:19  heh
Oct 28 17:14:43  rah ... and now rer c (french train) is interrupted
Oct 28 17:14:46  great
Oct 28 17:16:13  why gdata is so slow ... this really sucks
Oct 28 17:16:26  and this with a max_result=1
Oct 28 17:16:36  i can t ask less
Oct 28 17:17:53  google sync will really make me crazy !
Oct 28 17:19:33  Khertan_n810: well it is _beta_ software after all ;)
Oct 28 17:20:06  yeap like everythings on the web
Oct 28 17:20:19  reboot time, cu all later on
Oct 28 17:29:22  hey
Oct 28 17:31:12  well, i just got a wimax n810 and the gps hasn't locked yet even though i left it on for quite a few minutes
Oct 28 17:31:21  anyone had toruble getting the gps to work?
Oct 28 17:32:57  also, is the door supposed to have the corner tab bent
Oct 28 17:34:54  "quite a few" sounds not enough
Oct 28 17:35:04  first gps fix takes a really long time (20 minutes or so?)
Oct 28 17:35:17  also, are you outdoors?  gps doesn't work well (or, usually, at all) indoors
Oct 28 17:35:31  ok
Oct 28 17:35:44  I don't know what corner tab you're talking about
Oct 28 17:35:48  mgedmin: twenty minutes?!
Oct 28 17:35:54  maybe 12
Oct 28 17:36:01  first fix is horrible
Oct 28 17:36:10  all cold fix are horrible
Oct 28 17:36:41  seriously, the gps is a gadjet on the n810 board. A funny gadget, but a gadjet.
Oct 28 17:36:45  also, download agps-beta from the tableteer repo
Oct 28 17:36:49 <|rt|> even my garmin takes a while to lock on if you're in a different location than the last time it was on....especially if you're moving
Oct 28 17:36:53  reduces gps fix time if you're online
Oct 28 17:37:15  with it you can get a fix in 15..45 seconds
Oct 28 17:37:21  without it you need 60..90 seconds
Oct 28 17:37:36  90 seconds is when i m lucky, with or without agps
Oct 28 17:37:42 <|rt|> I installed agps on my 810...haven't tried anything with the gps yet outside myself
Oct 28 17:37:44  10 to 20 mn is more realist
Oct 28 17:37:46  mgedmin: on one side( the middle of the back) are three tabs the act as a hinge, on the outside are two tabs that act as a hook to lock the door. the other, third, outer tab is the one i'm speaking about
Oct 28 17:38:13  mgedmin: well i'm used to gps units that lock in less than a minute
Oct 28 17:38:38  I see
Oct 28 17:38:46  mine is also bent, if that's the right word
Oct 28 17:39:22  mgedmin: ok, good, cause mine is also bent at a right angle
Oct 28 17:39:28 * Khertan_n810 is tired of gdata ... and will try freecivilization for maemo
Oct 28 17:39:35  bye
Oct 28 17:40:09  mon meilleur conseil est: ne cherche pas a optimiser ton site en quoi que ce soit pour le rferencement
Oct 28 17:40:12  oups
Oct 28 17:44:33  http://www.internettablettalk.com/forums/showthread.php?p=237169 lol...
Oct 28 17:44:42  si j etais toi, je chercherais au moins un mi temps a coté
Oct 28 17:44:43  oups
Oct 28 17:45:02  grumble.. grumble.  one day i ll get use to irssi split screens
Oct 28 17:47:24  qwerty12: what was the exact issue of coreutils nuking busybox again?
Oct 28 17:48:31  Stskeeps: dpkg database says busybox provides, replaces, conflicts with coreutils so when you install coreutils, busybox wants to go and a shitload of stuff depends on busybox or a tool that busybox is set to "provide"
Oct 28 17:49:03  okay, so opposite to how debian busybox does it.. i wonder
Oct 28 17:49:36  If busybox is rebuilt with the Conflicts line removed, you may be able to use dpkg-divert
Oct 28 17:49:48  that flashing was easier than the dumbass windows flasher
Oct 28 17:49:49  :)
Oct 28 17:49:56  or avoid problems altogether
Oct 28 17:50:13  postinst of busybox, busybox --install
Oct 28 17:50:16  it sets up hard links
Oct 28 17:50:29  That sounds better. Nokia provide them with the package >.<
Oct 28 17:51:13  yeah
Oct 28 17:51:27  well, mkfs.jffs2 doesn't do it correctly so
Oct 28 17:51:47 * qwerty12 wastes time by rebuilding optimised, latest mpd again
Oct 28 17:52:35  re
Oct 28 17:52:51  re!
Oct 28 17:53:08  vincenzo88: how's the ip camera app going?
Oct 28 17:53:56  I will try to port a Qt program work on Ubuntu to the N810
Oct 28 17:55:05  surely the gui is only a minor part of it?
Oct 28 17:55:14  uhm, - port a qt program that works on ubuntu to the n810 maemo? :P
Oct 28 17:56:14  Stkkeeps: I will try but ^^
Oct 28 17:59:04  mgedmin: http://vilunki.wordpress.com/2008/02/04/solution-to-n810-gps-problems/
Oct 28 18:03:04  This may seems like an incredibly stupid question, but if people are having trouble with busybox, isn't there a way to install bash as a CLI?  If we can watch video on it, certainly it has the power to run it.  Is it not ported to ARM or maemoitized?
Oct 28 18:03:40  i think bash is available in extras or somewhere already
Oct 28 18:03:43  mouser-: sure, it's in extras. it's a problem with other things that busybox replaces too like ls etc
Oct 28 18:05:44  mouser-: i kinda wonder about the need for busybox on a tablet, really
Oct 28 18:05:53  bash vs busybox, sure, but the rest?
Oct 28 18:07:18  i mean, coreutils does take up space obviously..
Oct 28 18:10:09  Stskeeps: If things on a desktop distro go horribly wrong, it generally falls back to a busybox prompt.  Does that sort of thing not happen on the tablet if it is severely but not hopelessly broken?
Oct 28 18:18:24  mouser-: not by default, no
Oct 28 18:18:33  It reboots a few times, then starts up in a safe mode
Oct 28 18:18:40  But still into the desktop environment
Oct 28 18:31:11  mouser-: initramfs thing
Oct 28 18:47:37  theres a snake in my boots!
Oct 28 18:47:49  fry it
Oct 28 18:48:48  i cant, its a big motherf
Oct 28 18:49:41  lcuk: a snake in both of your boots?
Oct 28 18:50:04  i told you, its big (and also a glitch ;) ) i noticed after i posted
Oct 28 18:50:37 * lcuk guesses jacob found his pullstring woody
Oct 28 18:50:48  qwerty12_N800: fried snake, tastes like chicken I imagine
Oct 28 18:51:55  lardman, now I want to try it :/. anyone willing to ship me a snake via Her Majesty's postal service?
Oct 28 18:52:18  i could, but it would have to be airmail
Oct 28 18:52:37  Hi again
Oct 28 18:52:44  hiya khertan
Oct 28 18:52:49  freeciv is really slow on n810
Oct 28 18:54:13  hello lcuk
Oct 28 18:54:34  qwerty12_N800: probably easier to do that than send party poppers
Oct 28 18:54:59  heh
Oct 28 18:55:31 * lardman dislikes all these postal rules, hinders the model rocket making
Oct 28 18:56:47  I wonder who to talk to about this new Nokia location api
Oct 28 18:59:22  lardman :D im sure you will find someone
Oct 28 18:59:37  yeah, I imagine so :)
Oct 28 19:00:09  model rocket making :) now theres a hobby with high ambition
Oct 28 19:00:19 * lcuk puts his helicopter away
Oct 28 19:00:45  Water bottle rocket? :)
Oct 28 19:00:56  no, solid propellant
Oct 28 19:00:57 * Khertan_n810 really hate gdata !!!
Oct 28 19:01:05  Nice!
Oct 28 19:01:17  good fun blowing stuff up :)
Oct 28 19:01:32  not enough summer this year to get started though :(
Oct 28 19:01:45  Heh, yeah weather is a pain.
Oct 28 19:02:00  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dX7xeF-ywxc
Oct 28 19:02:04  ^^^^ watch that lard
Oct 28 19:02:08  I fly RC helis, very weather dependent too.
Oct 28 19:02:15  http://people.bath.ac.uk/enpsgp/rockets/rockets.html - I thought I'd try something hard, making an ejector seat :)
Oct 28 19:02:21  heh - especially taking an indoor one outdoors
Oct 28 19:02:31 * lcuk once did that :$
Oct 28 19:02:57  lcuk: cool
Oct 28 19:03:12  X-Fade: with rockets?! Please!
Oct 28 19:03:26  hmm, a cortex based gumstick...
Oct 28 19:03:54  supper beckons, bbiab
Oct 28 19:03:58  internet controlled solid propellant cruise rockets are banned arent they? even if you have a nokia logo on the side
Oct 28 19:04:30  lcuk: Nah, mine weigh 00 and
Oct 28 19:04:46  lcuk: lol, I don't fancy losing any expensive hw, this is pretty cool though: http://members.shaw.ca/sonde/
Oct 28 19:05:19  lcuk: Nah, mine weigh 500 and about 850 gram. But still ;)
Oct 28 19:05:30  lardman|food, WOW
Oct 28 19:05:38  and X-Fade you make rockets too? or just helis?
Oct 28 19:06:06  Nah, just helis..
Oct 28 19:07:18  Working on my 3d skills. Inverted flight etc.
Oct 28 19:07:19  i stopped flying mine when i started to get a bit too cocky with it - was an indoor one and after rebuilding a few times sussed how to get around everywhere
Oct 28 19:08:05  heh, just start your inversion high enough that you can recover
Oct 28 19:08:48  "Anyone managed to get KDE running on 770?", oh dear god, oh dear god no.
Oct 28 19:09:29  lcuk: yeah, I ordered a new one btw: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EkanzKylcRs
Oct 28 19:09:48  lcuk: Although this pilot has more skills than me ;)
Oct 28 19:10:12  awww - i thought it was you in the hat! ;)
Oct 28 19:10:21  Heh no ;)
Oct 28 19:10:36  hes not flying - hes falling with style
Oct 28 19:11:02 * lcuk prefers precision to bouncing everywhere
Oct 28 19:11:37  Yes, I'm more into the sport flying. Fast forward flight..
Oct 28 19:11:59  boy racer :D
Oct 28 19:12:08  have you seen the hover boat thingies..
Oct 28 19:12:21  Hmm got to go. bbl.
Oct 28 19:12:44  k x
Oct 28 19:26:31  lcuk: did you blow X-Fade a kiss as he left? :D
Oct 28 19:26:53  hehe
Oct 28 19:26:54  yes lardman x :P
Oct 28 19:26:59  lol
Oct 28 19:27:25  what it really means is i simply missed the tab key
Oct 28 19:27:40  ah, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt ;)
Oct 28 19:27:47  right.. we believe you ;p
Oct 28 19:29:07  oke
Oct 28 19:29:14  *this* is f****** annoying
Oct 28 19:29:15  Nokia-N810-23-14:~# gps_saver -n -S -s|grep DATA|cut -b 12-200
Oct 28 19:29:15  DATA T=1225222115 M=3 EPT=0.005 LAT=51.910451 LON=5.497239 EPH=28.000 ALT=7.500 EPV=24.000 TRK=203.100 EPD=nan SPD=0.051 EPS=56.000 CLMB=0.000 EPC=nan PTCH=nan ROLL=nan DIP=nan SU=0 S=0 HS=
Oct 28 19:29:22  gps_saver -n -S -s|grep DATA|cut -b 13-200
Oct 28 19:29:24  TA T=1225222122 M=3 [..]
Oct 28 19:29:37  I increase the cut -b with 1 and it cuts 2 extra
Oct 28 19:30:58  what happens if you use -c rather than -b ?
Oct 28 19:31:36  that does solve the problem
Oct 28 19:31:44  good good
Oct 28 19:31:56  looks like your byte size is wrong for some reason
Oct 28 19:32:19  Nokia-N810-23-14:~# set|grep -i utf
Oct 28 19:32:24  strange...
Oct 28 19:32:34  let's take a another N810 tomorrow and test from scratch
Oct 28 19:32:51  I don't imagine it's a silicon problem ;)
Oct 28 19:34:04  more about software
Oct 28 19:34:15  and I hate to flash my 'work' N810.. that thing I do use
Oct 28 19:34:32  might be a bug in busybox cut?
Oct 28 19:35:43  yeah, i was just about to say
Oct 28 19:35:43  :P
Oct 28 19:35:50  busybox is evil
Oct 28 19:36:07  s/evil/shit/
Oct 28 19:36:11  hmm, metromap works pretty well
Oct 28 19:36:52  qwerty12_N800: a second thing i hope to demonstrate with my jffs2 stuff is simply, "we don't need busybox on n8x0 and above"
Oct 28 19:36:54  did I mention that it's f**8 annoying?
Oct 28 19:38:05  Stskeeps, Cool :). I  want to see a coreutils build with ls + rm that doesn't segfault :)
Oct 28 19:39:30  should be possible on armel
Oct 28 19:40:37  I've got some recompiled opensuse running om arm routerboard 532 boxes
Oct 28 19:40:40  yeah, i should stop being lazy and compile etch's oone
Oct 28 19:40:44  that does work without busybox
Oct 28 19:41:38  qwerty12_N800: debian/armel most certainly comes with coreutils that doesn't segfault :9
Oct 28 19:42:14  hehe, be a disaster if it did :p
Oct 28 19:44:00 * Stskeeps wonders why mojo went with "arm" of all things for arch name
Oct 28 19:44:55  maybe because it's a Acorn RISC Machine
Oct 28 19:53:09  moo again
Oct 28 19:55:24  qwerty12_: does 2.6.27 g_ether work with xp if you happen to knwo?
Oct 28 19:59:40  Stskeeps, according to zap, who put a lot of time into this issue, the problem is in 2.6.21's musb, not the g_ether
Oct 28 19:59:55  +1
Oct 28 20:00:44  the difference between g_ether in 2.6.18 (which worked) and 2.6.21 (which doesn't) is very small if I remember correctly
Oct 28 20:12:49  hey, has frong been committed to extras with the source code? =)
Oct 28 20:12:54  s/frong/fring/
Oct 28 20:12:54  RST38h meant: hey, has fring been committed to extras with the source code? =)
Oct 28 20:13:17  qwerty12_N800: alright
Oct 28 20:40:07  Hello all!
Oct 28 20:40:32 * lcuk never thought he had an opinion on upgrading till today
Oct 28 20:40:38  hiya bilaw
Oct 28 20:40:46  For some reason I can't reflash my tablet!
Oct 28 20:40:51  (hello lcuk!)
Oct 28 20:41:28  the Terminal states: sudo: ./flasher-3.0: command not found
Oct 28 20:42:24  i dunno the linux way :$   (im so ashamed to say that)
Oct 28 20:42:28  Is ./flasher-3.0 readable and executable ?
Oct 28 20:42:29  (I am in the correct directory... And I tried this, too: "sudo: ./flasher-3.0.amd64: command not found")
Oct 28 20:42:46  -- nevermind that, lcuk! Remember this talk we had yesterday?
Oct 28 20:43:01  Bilaw: you really do have that file
Oct 28 20:43:15  Well I tried and install Deblet AND update some new maemo thing: my tablet won't turn on, now!!
Oct 28 20:43:18  ls flasher-3.0
Oct 28 20:43:23  heh bilaw :) no i have a very poor memory
Oct 28 20:43:54  Bilaw: did you do that?
Oct 28 20:44:04  -- macoute: I'm checking this!
Oct 28 20:44:16  and have you tried chmod +x flasher-3.0
Oct 28 20:44:42  Aaaaah! Thats the one I missed! Thank you macoute!!
Oct 28 20:45:28  Bilaw: np :)
Oct 28 20:46:01  Goodbye all ;=)
Oct 28 20:46:05  Hang on: sudo ./flasher-3.0.amd64 -F  -f -R
Oct 28 20:46:22  ==> "-R : no suche file or directory"
Oct 28 20:46:25  *such
Oct 28 20:46:45  why < and >?
Oct 28 20:46:52  did you actually wrote them?
Oct 28 20:46:55  Bilaw, swap the -F and the -f
Oct 28 20:47:25  ah, but qwerty12_N800 is right
Oct 28 20:47:37  the error message states that its trying to use file "-R"
Oct 28 20:47:39  OK, I'll drop the < and >! (But I copied it from the maemo wiki!!)
Oct 28 20:47:50  so -f must be for "file"
Oct 28 20:48:25  -f means to flash, -F means a fiasco image and the bin goes after the -F
Oct 28 20:48:26  (apparently it was enough w/out the ><
Oct 28 20:48:40  ... I'll keep you posted of any further development!
Oct 28 20:48:49  but many thanks for the help!
Oct 28 20:49:00  qwerty12_N800: but apparently the order of flags is not relevant
Oct 28 20:49:13  macoute, yeah, my bad
Oct 28 20:49:17  well the filename has to come immediately after the -F, but other than that no
Oct 28 20:50:41  (bother not about this, brothers, it has flashed... Now of course I need to check what the Deblet attempt did...)
Oct 28 20:51:07 * qwerty12_N800 runs -R in a separate flasher process. i noticed flasher jumped the gun with rebooting when i flashed one of my initfs images
Oct 28 20:52:24  I'll try and remember that, qwerty12_N800, but hopefully I wont have to reflash too often!
Oct 28 20:52:57  (wait, qwerty12_N800: isnt -R standing for "recursive"?)
Oct 28 20:53:08  Bilaw, reboot
Oct 28 20:54:10  I want to see an N8*0 flashing another N8*0 via usb host and a 0xffff compile :p
Oct 28 20:54:15  (Diantre! Still more to learn 'bout Linux, huh?)
Oct 28 20:54:38  what's 0xfff, qwerty12_N800?
Oct 28 20:55:12  an open source flasher i think
Oct 28 20:55:28  Bilaw: fyi http://maemo.org/community/wiki/Flasher_tool_usage/#3247d5daab42cafaa048402c23cb00c8
Oct 28 20:55:29  0xfff=4091, right?
Oct 28 20:55:40  Bilaw, an open source flasher, i stick to using flasher-3.0 on the computer though
Oct 28 20:57:34  // Alright, people, and NOW another attempt at installing Deblet! Let's completely crash the Tablet AGAIN!
Oct 28 20:58:06  hmm, what's the easiest way to make bash move all files from subfolders into one folder?
Oct 28 20:58:31  Scott Grannemann's "Linux"?
Oct 28 20:58:39  regex?
Oct 28 20:58:45  mv -r?
Oct 28 20:58:52  qwerty12_N800: mv -R?
Oct 28 20:59:12  mv -R foobar foo moves foobar and its subfolders to foo
Oct 28 20:59:46  Are you serious, qwerty12_N800? Would you really like me to look it up in my book?
Oct 28 20:59:53  my bad,i mean all files from each folder into one without the original folders
Oct 28 21:00:22  Bilaw, Nah, thank you but I'll figure it out :)
Oct 28 21:01:15  Shouldn't it include some -p, too, and several *s?
Oct 28 21:04:43  just found i  don't need to do it, wget has a no directories option :)
Oct 28 21:11:07  wget has an effing number of incroyables options!
Oct 28 21:11:48  wget is the shizzle
Oct 28 21:16:49  qwerty12_N800: find . -print0 | xargs -0 mv \{} .
Oct 28 21:16:51  ish
Oct 28 21:16:53  mm - probably a --type f too
Oct 28 21:17:05  Alrigh, I'm off, people, thanks for your help, all!
Oct 28 21:18:04  I got gpe-calendar sync'ing with egroupware. But now it segfaults. I'm sad.
Oct 28 21:18:13  lbt, Thanks! I'm always forgetting xargs :)
Oct 28 21:18:49  :)
Oct 28 21:18:53  :( lbt
Oct 28 21:19:11  hello
Oct 28 21:19:16  hi there
Oct 28 21:19:53  it's been *weeks* since I've done any nit stuff...
Oct 28 21:20:22  yeah, feels the same for me
Oct 28 21:20:34  how's liqbase going? I've had irc on and seen comments - sounds like it's moving along :)
Oct 28 21:20:37  or rather stuff i want to do
Oct 28 21:21:04  yeah, theres a real proper package and its in extras now and properly installable and stuff :D
Oct 28 21:21:46  oooh
Oct 28 21:21:46  ...
Oct 28 21:21:49  i finally got over my headfunk and actually got it saving images
Oct 28 21:22:02  so now theres a usable camera app included :)
Oct 28 21:22:53  eek - my nit won't run application manager...
Oct 28 21:23:15  thats not a good thing
Oct 28 21:23:23  liqbase is in extras?
Oct 28 21:23:31  yes
Oct 28 21:23:34  apt-get ftw *grin*
Oct 28 21:23:42  http://liqbase.net/   info here, and the video of my berlin presentation
Oct 28 21:23:51  open (30 Read-only file system)
Oct 28 21:24:06  reboot? reflash?
Oct 28 21:24:10  reboot
Oct 28 21:24:37  fair enough, yeah - it went down a treat in berlin
Oct 28 21:24:59  came away with more things i need to try though than when i went (always the same)
Oct 28 21:26:30  and i had a push and ironed out all the things in a testing period and moved myself away from my little dev folder home and properly into garage :)
Oct 28 21:26:40  lcuk: i actually demoed your program in nokia flagship store, too :)
Oct 28 21:26:50  \o/ nice
Oct 28 21:27:02  i hope to as well one day :P
Oct 28 21:27:03  lcuk, camera stuff using gstreamer?
Oct 28 21:27:08  yeah
Oct 28 21:27:14  but they are mostly just salespersonnel, but i told them to tell nokia that this is what we need :P
Oct 28 21:27:16  :)
Oct 28 21:27:16  EEEEEK    Buffer I/O error on device mmcblk0p2, logical block 227367         http://pastebin.com/m713b6221
Oct 28 21:27:29  lcuk, you will be known all over Suomi :p
Oct 28 21:28:00  yes :)
Oct 28 21:28:14  i entered the "callingallinnovators" competition :$
Oct 28 21:28:14  :)
Oct 28 21:29:06  how the hell did i actually know what you meant then qwerty, and more importantly how did you know what it meant
Oct 28 21:29:49  in "suomi"? :)
Oct 28 21:30:12  lcuk, 1. No idea, 2. i like to know facts like that for some reason :)
Oct 28 21:31:00  heh
Oct 28 21:31:21  just wait till you are old and then you realise random facts just push out the good stuff :P
Oct 28 21:31:25  yes macoute
Oct 28 21:31:51  but I knew that too? :D
Oct 28 21:32:32  heh :D the embedded video actually works
Oct 28 21:36:25  lcuk: are you doing video in liqbase?
Oct 28 21:37:19  no gregorovius, i havent tried yet - looking more closely at animation that video
Oct 28 21:37:27  than ^
Oct 28 21:37:48  ah, I misunderstood
Oct 28 21:38:01  the camera is just a sideshoot really, just another way to get data into the system and also to identify users
Oct 28 21:39:26 * Jaffa ponders. Another Frasier, or  bed & read
Oct 28 21:39:47  Bed.
Oct 28 21:39:59  what you reading at the mo jaffa?
Oct 28 21:40:30  Kate Mosse's _Sepulchre_ (but spelt right)
Oct 28 21:41:59  lcuk: Read _Labyrinth_ whilst on holiday in the place where it was set, in the same summer it was set. Also decided to read a Dan Brown book to see if it lived up to the hype. That only further emphasised the quality of the other book ;-)
Oct 28 21:42:02  jaffa spelling it right, sounds cool
Oct 28 21:42:27  heh
Oct 28 21:43:11  there is something timeless in a book which computers and lots of other modern mediums lack
Oct 28 21:43:38  This is structured very similarly to _Labyrinth_ and you can sort of see where it'll be going if you read the other; but it's well written and compelling, so still fun
Oct 28 21:43:49  lcuk: indeed.
Oct 28 21:44:11  best thing with book is the battery life expectancy
Oct 28 21:45:16  i sent my book back to amazon the other day - i couldnt see it to read in bed, and no matter what i did i couldnt brighten it up without also destroying the pages i was trying to read
Oct 28 21:45:16  heh
Oct 28 21:45:29  i would get halfway down and the smouldering would catch up
Oct 28 21:45:43 * Jaffa offs. g'night
Oct 28 21:45:47  lol gnite
Oct 28 21:47:21  hey lcuk - very nice :)
Oct 28 21:48:01  lbt, it best be, ive tried to build something similar for years now.  the best thing is this is just the start
Oct 28 21:48:37  this really has been the first time ive put enough pieces together to know in myself that im on the right path
Oct 28 21:48:40  Well, I'm seriously impressed :)
Oct 28 21:49:21  heh lbt, next year i get to do it all again, but hopefully without any hacks
Oct 28 21:49:47  It would be interesting to see what you could expose as a gfx library/toolkit
Oct 28 21:49:55  yes absolutely
Oct 28 21:50:24  that part was key to open sourcing it, even if i cannot manage to do it - its proven that it can be done in a specific case
Oct 28 21:50:37  someone will come along with enough will and desire to try themselves :)
Oct 28 21:51:19  lbt, thinking about that, did you ever use directfb in initfs successfully?
Oct 28 21:51:20  and anyway lbt, it already is a library - i just havent broken it into pieces yet
Oct 28 21:52:03  qwerty12_N80O: no, work jumped up and bit me. I was building tslib
Oct 28 21:52:15  ah, ok :)
Oct 28 21:52:42  lbt, tslib for our devices, or in work?
Oct 28 21:53:20  in uclib for the initial boot
Oct 28 21:53:30  i built mtd-tools for initfs and that's it :p
Oct 28 21:53:33  so we could have a touch based multiboot
Oct 28 21:53:41  or liqOS ?
Oct 28 21:57:01  how do i get automake installed on the n810?
Oct 28 21:57:57  apt-get install automake1.9, and get: "Some packages could not be installed. This may mean that you have requested..."
Oct 28 22:04:06  I like the double click on the stars :)
Oct 28 22:05:31  double click?
Oct 28 22:06:01  lbt, jott keeps mentioning lqios
Oct 28 22:06:05  I thought double click brought up the butty
Oct 28 22:06:05  butty it doesn't
Oct 28 22:06:08  its starting to wear in :)
Oct 28 22:06:09  
Oct 28 22:06:30  heh, bacon only runs on the 2nd invocation of stars per session
Oct 28 22:06:33  so close and rerun
Oct 28 22:06:57  double click on the next release :)
Oct 28 22:07:06  It would make a superb launcher too
Oct 28 22:07:10  but we are using a stylus
Oct 28 22:07:17  yes, quite a few people have remarked on that
Oct 28 22:07:25  double tap - one for each slice
Oct 28 22:07:27  the only problem so far is closing and reopening after app is finished
Oct 28 22:07:30  ill have to look
Oct 28 22:07:34  heh, its only bacon
Oct 28 22:07:37  you dont have bread :P
Oct 28 22:07:52  's OK I like it crunchy
Oct 28 22:07:59  i will have a look at just closing the XV window and minimizing the x11 window
Oct 28 22:08:21  incase the user wants to run mplayer or something :)
Oct 28 22:08:37  some days i curse having to hack it all like this
Oct 28 22:09:08  but other days i scratch at my screen in wonderment at how well it operates ;)
Oct 28 22:09:43  would a window of images scroll as smoothly as a window of text?
Oct 28 22:09:44  scratching at my screen - thats the description i couldnt find the word for in my presenetation
Oct 28 22:09:50  go into options
Oct 28 22:09:57  blit test
Oct 28 22:10:07  then press +- hardware buttons
Oct 28 22:10:13  it does normal blits of images
Oct 28 22:10:19  and after you scaled it stretchblits
Oct 28 22:10:21  so yes
Oct 28 22:11:07  and did you get the variable scaling working at all?
Oct 28 22:11:08 * lcuk missed a trick there - i should have scaled once, stored the result then just used the faster standard blit
Oct 28 22:11:27  what do you mean variable?  as in stretchblit?
Oct 28 22:11:36  the cheap 'lens' effect
Oct 28 22:11:47  heh not yet :)
Oct 28 22:11:53  but i have ideas and it will come
Oct 28 22:11:58  yes - but variable across the screen?
Oct 28 22:11:59  yes?
Oct 28 22:12:19  not yet
Oct 28 22:13:03  are you running it now on your nokia?
Oct 28 22:13:10  y
Oct 28 22:13:43  i just realised, the default installed version starts at 640*480 - all images are using stretchblit to begin with at that resolution
Oct 28 22:13:53  its actually faster at scrolling the images at 800*480
Oct 28 22:14:22  as it happens I went to 800x480
Oct 28 22:14:57  yeah, its what i use - i had to knock it down though because *some* tablets exhibit a strange effect the first time you run after a reboot
Oct 28 22:15:15  closing liqbase and rerunning magically makes it work
Oct 28 22:19:30  apt-get source liqbase doesn't work...
Oct 28 22:19:59  oooer, i sent the source to them as part fo the extras thing, and its live in the garage
Oct 28 22:20:43  lcuk, did you promote the source too?
Oct 28 22:20:46  and im sure its buildable from that source because I commit from the tablet, clean down vmware and update to latest and build package there
Oct 28 22:20:50  probably not :$
Oct 28 22:21:24  I'd have thought it would have gone there as part of the autobuilder...
Oct 28 22:21:32 * lcuk didnt know i had to - i thought users might get it listed
Oct 28 22:21:40  lbt, qwerty is right
Oct 28 22:21:51  it is all in extras-devel but i dont tihnk i promoted the source
Oct 28 22:22:30  no probs :)
Oct 28 22:22:39 * lcuk is doing it now :)
Oct 28 22:23:31  alright ive added them
Oct 28 22:23:46  ill know in future, thanks for the heads up again qwerty
Oct 28 22:24:02  OK - gotta go - hopefully I'll be back a little more often in the future :)
Oct 28 22:24:13 * qwerty12_N80O so needs a dark os2008 theme that isn't as radical as lcars
Oct 28 22:24:14  :)
Oct 28 22:24:32  alright lbt, good to see you still about
Oct 28 22:24:44  cheers all - g'nite...
Oct 28 22:24:55  'night
Oct 28 22:29:51  qwerty: The iPhone theme!
Oct 28 22:30:01 * RST38h waits for somebody to throw up
Oct 28 22:30:57 * lcuk uses badly rendered marble as his theme
Oct 28 22:31:35  RST38h, heh :p. i'll see if i can mess with  konttori's theme maker enough to produce me a port of the os2007 appleenvy theme
Oct 28 22:36:19  is there a fast scratchbox.org mirror somewhere?
Oct 28 23:05:16  ah, so metromap is a port: http://metromap.antex.ru/
Oct 28 23:08:01  with a fair few maps too: http://pmetro.nm.ru/Maps.html
Oct 28 23:11:39  hi
Oct 28 23:12:43  the audio output of the nokia 770 should be switched from speaker to headphones if i plug them in, right? by hardware i guess? something is wrong here, i have no audio on my headphones.. :/
Oct 28 23:13:51  software switch actually
Oct 28 23:14:02  though it should happen automatically
Oct 28 23:14:28  should be a sysfs entry to can write to to change that iirc
Oct 28 23:15:58  lardman: ah thanks, thats a good hint
Oct 28 23:17:05  i have /sys/devices/platform/gpio-switch/speaker/connection_switch which always stats 'disconnected'
Oct 28 23:17:08   /sys/devices/platform/ gpio-switch/headphone/state
Oct 28 23:17:19  minus the space in the middle of course
Oct 28 23:20:59  lardman: nope, i dont have that file but switching the output via echo connected > /sys/devices/platform/gpio-switch/speaker/connection_switch works
Oct 28 23:21:26  maybe i have no state file and the auto-switching doesn't work because i'm runnung the OS07 hacker edition
Oct 28 23:23:33  fish_: that may be on a later kernel anyway, I don't know (I think it was for an n800, no idea what sw release though)
Oct 28 23:23:51  you can switch though?
Oct 28 23:23:57  so the hw isn't broken
Oct 28 23:32:42  is there a faster repository.maemo.org mirror?
Oct 28 23:34:47  I don't think there are any mirrors at all
Oct 28 23:35:57  ;/
Oct 28 23:36:04  How to make the media player support ogg/flac et
Oct 28 23:36:05  etc
Oct 28 23:36:22  what am I, an Oracle? ;)
Oct 28 23:36:43  hellwolf: there's an ogg support package in extras, install that
Oct 28 23:36:57  hellwolf: not sure about flac, but there is a flac decoder dsp task in Garage
Oct 28 23:37:17  lardman, I saw a lot of ogg related things, but I don't know which one to install
Oct 28 23:38:35  hellwolf: nor do I
Oct 28 23:38:49  hellwolf: try the maemo.org wiki, I seem to remember there being a page there
Oct 28 23:38:54  or try itt
Oct 28 23:44:27  where itt is of course:
Oct 28 23:44:29  ~itt
Oct 28 23:44:30  extra, extra, read all about it, itt is the forums on internettablettalk.com ( http://internettablettalk.com/forums )
Oct 28 23:47:43  lardman, yes
Oct 28 23:48:22  can you tell me where one of my socks is - tracy is goin ape at me cos theres one missing
Oct 28 23:48:29 * lcuk personally thinks it got up and walked
Oct 28 23:48:44  yes, mine tend to walk away from the landry basket
Oct 28 23:48:50  do you have a compass?
Oct 28 23:49:01  bearing 014 degrees, 4 metres
Oct 28 23:49:20  :D ahhh cool - i wonder how it got into nextdoor's bedroom though
Oct 28 23:49:34  lol
Oct 28 23:50:06  you don't place them in glass jars to stop them melting through floors/walls?
Oct 28 23:50:32  no, the glass tends to still bend
Oct 28 23:50:39  i have a stasis field
Oct 28 23:50:49  it keeps them fresh :D
Oct 28 23:51:25  i think for the first time in months i am relaxed
Oct 28 23:52:00  qwerty12_N80O: you about London boy?
Oct 28 23:52:58  I've got lots on this week, annoyingly it's taking longer than I hoped
Oct 28 23:53:18  day work or another one of your little projects?
Oct 28 23:53:49  yeah day job, far too many little projects to do in my spare time too!
Oct 28 23:54:27  yeah know that feeling, our main client just came back and asked for something that was ruled out on day 1
Oct 28 23:54:44  luckily i expected it and coded accordingly
Oct 28 23:55:22  pre-emptive coding
Oct 28 23:56:18  more a case of coding generally and not tying myself to one specific path too early - the changes essentially involve me reading a diff listing and applying the changes
Oct 28 23:56:57  im in 2 minds about the icons in liqbase
Oct 28 23:58:19  http://liqbase.net/liq.20081028_235446.gary.scr.png   i added the method to put them in, but now they are there is less usable
Oct 28 23:58:57  no idea from me I'm afraid
Oct 28 23:59:52  np, just thinkin out loud really :P
Oct 29 00:01:20  lardman, this one will though: http://liqbase.net/liq.20081026_204523.gary.cam.png
Oct 29 00:01:31  i want a proper library :P
Oct 29 00:02:45  barcode scanning :)
Oct 29 00:03:04  you want a barcode scanning library?
Oct 29 00:03:15  could do with a proper on
Oct 29 00:03:16  e
Oct 29 00:03:27  yes, I think that would be worth doing
Oct 29 00:04:06  yeah, at present all i am doing is recognising that ive got white bars and all greyscale in between
Oct 29 00:04:31  and then stretch blitting that block of pixels into a strip of 85 chars
Oct 29 00:05:00  and doing some simplistic filtering to try and get things
Oct 29 00:05:18  i have no idea if the codes are valid or anything
Oct 29 00:05:32  hence library time - its not my forte
Oct 29 00:05:51  I'm planning on doing some more work on maemo-barcode asap
Oct 29 00:06:05  I see no reason not to produce some sort of backend library that other apps can use too
Oct 29 00:06:18  yeah, well this is sitting waiting - ive made a barcode icon in liqbase camera, tap it and it engages any barcode
Oct 29 00:06:26  cool
Oct 29 00:06:32  and the dsp-jpeg stuff
Oct 29 00:06:43  you're filling up my free time far too quickly!
Oct 29 00:07:03  heh seriously no rush on dsp, that is just wishlisty
Oct 29 00:07:13  but i can see practical things for the barcode, as you have said yourself
Oct 29 00:07:48  you know the barcode stuff is pretty well contained in one file?
Oct 29 00:08:02  for 1D barcodes that is
Oct 29 00:08:10  i never jumped in that far, and i know nothing about libraries
Oct 29 00:08:32  yeah - how would we handle rotated barcodes
Oct 29 00:08:46  depends how far it's been rotated
Oct 29 00:08:59  i mean proper full 360deg support
Oct 29 00:09:00  for 1D barcodes, they can rotate quite a long way and still be readable
Oct 29 00:09:13  hmm, not somehting I'm too interested in tbh
Oct 29 00:09:13  i was toying with the idea of using it not as a barcode, but as a joystick
Oct 29 00:09:34  recognise the cube and get its orientation and scale from that
Oct 29 00:09:35  That's another interesting idea, quick image correlation,e tc.,
Oct 29 00:09:39  and then position things
Oct 29 00:10:12  and btw, look at that image - thats taken at 320*240 - from your professional eye, is there enough resolution to grab a valid code from it
Oct 29 00:10:18  even if we have to move slightly closer
Oct 29 00:10:22  lardman, well, there are lots of mirrors.
Oct 29 00:10:29  The Akamai network, for instance. :P
Oct 29 00:10:49  mornin GeneralAntilles
Oct 29 00:10:54  probably want it a bit closer
Oct 29 00:11:13  GeneralAntilles: of the repos?
Oct 29 00:11:15  ahhh then i lose focus
Oct 29 00:11:24  more light
Oct 29 00:11:38  ok, ill work something out - i might grab the checksum side of the code and see if i can identify valid blocks
Oct 29 00:11:56  yes! the semi flash idea - ill ensure a white block remains in the corner
Oct 29 00:12:30  doh!   that explains why i couldnt scan a small section of any barcode  - the red LED was shining back and tinting the barcode - it scans for greyscale specificall
Oct 29 00:13:04  GeneralAntilles, yes, there's a giant network of servers mirror repository.maemo.org
Oct 29 00:13:27  hmm, he's talking to himself....
Oct 29 00:13:31  Nobody actually accesses repository.maemo.org
Oct 29 00:13:33  Hehe
Oct 29 00:13:37  fair enough
Oct 29 00:13:40  s/GeneralAntilles/lardman/
Oct 29 00:14:52  hola
Oct 29 00:15:31  time for bed
Oct 29 00:15:34  night cha[s
Oct 29 00:15:37  chaps even
Oct 29 00:16:10  GeneralAntilles, have you seen the guy who wants to move task bar
Oct 29 00:16:23  No?
Oct 29 00:16:26  do you want to (tongue in cheek of course) want to tell him to simply rotate his nokia
Oct 29 00:16:38  you have such a way with words that i cannot manage
Oct 29 00:17:39  you answer so quickly lol
Oct 29 00:18:17  Where?
Oct 29 00:18:22 * GeneralAntilles just got home and hasn't caught up.
Oct 29 00:18:33  errr -dev i think
Oct 29 00:18:48  Oh, -users
Oct 29 00:18:54  I wasn't paying much attention
Oct 29 00:18:56  heh, i just saw you rip through people who i deliberated for ages to try and explain to
Oct 29 00:19:11  Any thread Mark is involved in I try to avoid responding in detail to.
Oct 29 00:19:44  any -user thread normally ends up skipping my inbox
Oct 29 00:19:49  Hehe, lcuk's shakily holding a 9mm at the guy and I sprint onscreen from the left with a sword and cut 'im in two? :P
Oct 29 00:20:02  it only remained (and I thought it was -dev) because he mentioned liqbase
Oct 29 00:20:21  yeah gen, thats it to a tee
Oct 29 00:21:14  GeneralAntilles, actually the benq is running moblin aka maemo IIRC
Oct 29 00:21:27  johnx?
Oct 29 00:21:34  Moblin certainly isn't Maemo
Oct 29 00:21:49  GeneralAntilles, well it's certainly hildon
Oct 29 00:21:57  Despite whatever allnameswereout may think, I lost my desire to coddle and spoon feed most people directly from working to help them in helpdesk like situations.
Oct 29 00:22:01  Which really doesn't make it Maemo
Oct 29 00:22:08  but what, in particular, are you responding to?
Oct 29 00:22:11  fair enough, I suppose
Oct 29 00:22:41  I mean, ArchLinux aka Debian because both can run LXDE?
Oct 29 00:23:20  nah, but it's fair to talk about maemo on a gnome list in certain circumstances because one is derived from the other
Oct 29 00:34:55  For anybody who missed mvo's reply: http://qgil.jaiku.com/presence/47635104
Oct 29 00:38:04  w00! That is the most heartening Nokia reponse in that whole exchange
Oct 29 00:38:34  y'all are cool
Oct 29 00:38:49  how are you, johnx?
Oct 29 00:38:59  pretty good. and you?
Oct 29 00:39:01  johnx, well, I don't doubt there are a lot of people in Maemo Software pushing in that direction
Oct 29 00:39:10  I don't think most of them want to talk about it in public, though.
Oct 29 00:39:27  GeneralAntilles, I *did* doubt that before I saw that response though
Oct 29 00:39:36  thinking about work, economy etc.  hard to think about tablets atm.
Oct 29 00:39:43  johnx, that's too bad.
Oct 29 00:40:08  GeneralAntilles, I'm not very optimistic about companies handling Linux-based devices (example: zaurus)
Oct 29 00:40:25  The issue has always been more of a management one.
Oct 29 00:40:39  has kotczarny been around in the last 4 weeks or so?
Oct 29 00:40:49  hello
Oct 29 00:40:56  i suppose i could google that...
Oct 29 00:40:58  :shudders: Maybe at the outside edge of 4 weeks.
Oct 29 00:41:00  pupnik, not in here, but i was speaking to him earlier
Oct 29 00:41:06  I can see no Xournal im maemo-extras
Oct 29 00:41:07  ~seen KotCzarny
Oct 29 00:41:08  kotczarny  was last seen on IRC in channel #maemo, 26d 14h 49m 38s ago, saying: 'nite nite'.
Oct 29 00:41:14  someone has lied to me
Oct 29 00:41:27  heh, what's up with him lcuk?
Oct 29 00:41:27  http://www.google.com/search?ie=utf8&oe=utf8&q=site:repository.maemo.org+xournal
Oct 29 00:41:40  when did you last see him?
Oct 29 00:42:05  don't ask me questions like that
Oct 29 00:42:15  a lifetime ago..
Oct 29 00:42:27  heh, i meant speak to him
Oct 29 00:42:39  hes in #liqbase
Oct 29 00:42:43  long time.  just wondering if he was intere...ahhh
Oct 29 00:42:50  heh
Oct 29 00:42:54  Oh, and about the economy. It's time to start squirreling away supplies and getting ready to hole up, pupnik. ;)
Oct 29 00:43:07  GeneralAntilles, it's not getting found!
Oct 29 00:43:29  AStorm, are you missing one of either: Chinook Extras or Diablo Extras-devel?
Oct 29 00:43:38  GeneralAntilles, ahh, extral-devel
Oct 29 00:43:46  that version is unusable
Oct 29 00:43:54  it has to die
Oct 29 00:44:03  I want a usable build, for diablo
Oct 29 00:44:17  Chinook Extras
Oct 29 00:44:18  with less crashes and more speed than chinook one
Oct 29 00:44:27  Then get to building.
Oct 29 00:44:37  yeahyeah
Oct 29 00:44:46  and you'll pay me?
Oct 29 00:44:51  No
Oct 29 00:44:55  I don't use Xournal
Oct 29 00:45:02  Why would I pay for software I don't use?
Oct 29 00:45:13  I'll gbrab maemopad+ instead
Oct 29 00:45:43  AStorm, what kind of sketching are you after
Oct 29 00:46:14  good sketching, as note taking
Oct 29 00:46:23  cos liqbase does the business for me
Oct 29 00:46:24  http://liqbase.net/
Oct 29 00:46:26  ;)
Oct 29 00:46:52  and it includes a big fat berlin presentation to see
Oct 29 00:47:00  a pds
Oct 29 00:47:17  lcuk, offline please?
Oct 29 00:47:32  offline?
Oct 29 00:47:38  and not slow., able to handle 40-90 pages
Oct 29 00:47:42  liqbase is entirely offline
Oct 29 00:47:50  watch the video
Oct 29 00:47:55  you WILL be surprised
Oct 29 00:47:57  its VERY quick
Oct 29 00:48:00  for maemo, right?
Oct 29 00:48:03  i take notes with it all day
Oct 29 00:48:05  yes
Oct 29 00:48:30  Hrm, Overo's out I guess.
Oct 29 00:48:37  256MB RAM, 256MB NAND
Oct 29 00:48:39  a kind of categorization mpad+ has is nice
Oct 29 00:48:50  although not essential
Oct 29 00:50:11  astorm, tagging and grouping not yet in place, but i just browse through and review what ive done often
Oct 29 00:51:00  is it an app written by you?
Oct 29 00:51:07  yes
Oct 29 00:51:16  the first video is my summit presentation
Oct 29 00:51:20  ok, I'm sold
Oct 29 00:51:25  lol
Oct 29 00:51:52  its in diablo extras, but if you need it for older let me know ill try and rustle something up
Oct 29 00:53:10  no no, diablo is very ok
Oct 29 00:53:21  will check it out in a sec
Oct 29 00:54:05  but I'll reinstall xournal first
Oct 29 00:54:14  np :)
Oct 29 00:55:38  xournal has problems with 20 or so pages, which is fail
Oct 29 00:55:43  Somebody needs to stick a native interface on this: http://flickr.com/photos/qole2/2978324995/
Oct 29 00:57:28  not so fast this drawing :P
Oct 29 00:58:09  which drawing? liqbase
Oct 29 00:58:17  go into options and up the cpu...
Oct 29 00:58:37  "performance" does exactly what it says
Oct 29 01:00:48  mhm
Oct 29 01:00:53  noted
Oct 29 01:01:16  couldn't ondemand with toggle for performance preferrence work as well?
Oct 29 01:01:36  (by default it prefers powersaving)
Oct 29 01:02:14  btw, screen doesn't refresh on switch until some event happens
Oct 29 01:02:50  on switch hmmm ahhh you mean when it blanks
Oct 29 01:02:59  yeah its noted as a bug
Oct 29 01:03:39  ondemand DOES go upto full speed - but my drawing routine is too fast and keeps the cpu under 40% when in use
Oct 29 01:03:44  so the cpu clocks back down
Oct 29 01:04:10  i could work round it and stay in ondemand by simply drawing the screen multiple times per frame
Oct 29 01:04:14  but thats wasteful
Oct 29 01:04:25  and performance is so much crisper in the rest of maemo as well ;)
Oct 29 01:05:26  GeneralAntilles, whats wrong with that screenshot you pasted?
Oct 29 01:05:31  its already in maemo
Oct 29 01:07:33  lcuk, what abt conservative?
Oct 29 01:07:50  powersave is just slower
Oct 29 01:07:53  with and w/o powersaving bias :)
Oct 29 01:07:56  its workable, but lower the resolution
Oct 29 01:08:04  conservative != powersave
Oct 29 01:08:16  conserv. iks slow ondemand
Oct 29 01:08:21  *is
Oct 29 01:08:22  ahhh, whats the diff - cos i noticed only 3 primary modes
Oct 29 01:08:40  switches slower and step by step
Oct 29 01:08:46  the 3 i put in were the main ones that had a definable difference
Oct 29 01:08:56  cool
Oct 29 01:09:23  its fairly simple to implement, i just didnt think i needed the others
Oct 29 01:12:21  conservative has a number of thresholds to tuune
Oct 29 01:12:30  separate down/up, for instance
Oct 29 01:14:24  ill have a readup about it AStorm
Oct 29 01:14:33  default 80/20 up/down
Oct 29 01:14:54  heh, liqbase will probably still fall under it
Oct 29 01:15:07  lcuk, look at the widgets
Oct 29 01:15:18  it's easy Debian
Oct 29 01:15:18  yeah gen, ahhh you mean hildonization
Oct 29 01:15:40  Yeah . . . native.
Oct 29 01:16:22  sorry misunderstood
Oct 29 01:16:31  i glanced at first and saw it running in maemo
Oct 29 01:22:51  it's like constant orgasm to have internet everywhere :)
Oct 29 01:46:45  you become a walking google proxy of information?
Oct 29 01:48:15  heh
Oct 29 01:48:31  having internet every with my tablet is a bit of an overstatement
Oct 29 01:49:06  wifi coverage is rather hit or miss.  i wonder if pupnik has wimax
Oct 29 01:49:37  also, i wish the browser was a bit faster... even turning off all extensions and javascript it still seems slow
Oct 29 01:49:45  could be the wifi of course
Oct 29 01:49:53  well it can only speed up from here :)
Oct 29 01:49:53  no, just sits near a hotspot
Oct 29 01:50:05  heh
Oct 29 01:50:10  maybe turning off images would help
Oct 29 01:50:12  there's a lot of performance improvements in upstream firefox that need to get merged in
Oct 29 01:50:31  which firefox? fenec or another build of microb?
Oct 29 01:50:56  microb is based on an old version of ff3
Oct 29 01:51:08  are there any other tweaks one can apply to speed up browsing on the tablets?
Oct 29 01:51:37  you can play with cache size and number of simultaneous connections
Oct 29 01:51:44  there are a couple posts about it on ITT
Oct 29 01:52:01  also, try and limit how many windows you have open and apps running at the same time
Oct 29 01:52:03  i would like to see a ground up implementation of a browser
Oct 29 01:52:27  that's kind of a lot of work I gather
Oct 29 01:52:39  :) ive never been one to shy away
Oct 29 01:52:57  start simple, work up from there
Oct 29 01:53:08  the problem is a simple browser isn't really usable
Oct 29 01:53:19  yeah, i shut everything down when trying to browse
Oct 29 01:53:21  at least in this era :)
Oct 29 01:53:27  depends upon purpose - for html books its perfect
Oct 29 01:53:30  i have to say the mytube client really rocks though
Oct 29 01:53:45  it's fast and stable and doesn't freeze the machine while downloading stuff like gpodder or canola
Oct 29 01:53:46  but that's not a browser, it's an ebook reader like fbreader
Oct 29 01:54:05  for jazzy css encrusted multifaceted workhorse i agree
Oct 29 01:54:22  i guess craigslist could be reasonably fast on the tablet
Oct 29 01:54:50  the problem with the current browser isnt that its slow persay
Oct 29 01:54:52  handy for posting missed connections i guess
Oct 29 01:54:54  its that it feels slow
Oct 29 01:54:56  lcuk, surf with dillo2 or links2 graphical mode for a bit and tell me how fun it is :)
Oct 29 01:55:48  well, the other problem is that it's slow...
Oct 29 01:56:06  the other thing is that when you're outside trying to browse a bit before the bus comes or something, you really want things to load quickly
Oct 29 01:56:18  if you're a library or cafe though, it's not such a bit deal
Oct 29 01:56:39  or sitting in your car, etc
Oct 29 01:56:57  actually, what I really care about most is my RSS reader refreshing quickly, but I get your point
Oct 29 01:57:28  what rss feeds do you want to keep up with on the go?
Oct 29 01:57:43  basically a whole bunch of tech news
Oct 29 01:57:47  i guess it's a fun break at work or school, maybe :)
Oct 29 01:57:53  just basic on-the-bus reading material :)
Oct 29 01:58:07  heh
Oct 29 01:58:22  Everyone get http://down.codeweavers.com/ today?  If not, HURRY!
Oct 29 01:58:29  yeah, i wish i could tell the RSS reader not to delete all my reading material so quickly
Oct 29 01:58:48  maybe, the other RSS reader in extras likes to retain things better
Oct 29 01:59:07  feed circuit? yeah, I need to try it
Oct 29 01:59:09  Main Website Temporarily Offline?
Oct 29 01:59:28  l7 - They got slammed.  :-)
Oct 29 01:59:29  Main Website turn on!
Oct 29 01:59:40  heh
Oct 29 02:01:26  what was the main codeweavers article about?
Oct 29 02:01:56  Free CrossOver - today only!
Oct 29 02:02:00  hrm, all of it?
Oct 29 02:02:14  why?
Oct 29 02:02:48  Yea, all of it!  An entire year subscription to their Pro product, which includes Games and reduced prices on subscription renewals.
Oct 29 02:02:55  Watch the video.  :-)
Oct 29 02:03:01  that's crazy
Oct 29 02:03:03  But download the toys and sign up for serials!
Oct 29 02:03:07  i guess that's marketing for you
Oct 29 02:03:14  Yes.  It is!
Oct 29 02:03:17  thanks for the link though :)
Oct 29 02:03:33 * SDuensin is an owner of CO Mac Pro.  Nice to get the Linux one.
Oct 29 02:03:36  YW
Oct 29 02:04:12  ah
Oct 29 02:04:30  can you request both mac and linux serials for the same email account?
Oct 29 02:05:06  lcuk, ondemand with up_threshold of 20 is great
Oct 29 02:05:29  maybe 25
Oct 29 02:05:47  hmm, I'd stgill like conservative more
Oct 29 02:05:56  but can't get a good setting
Oct 29 02:06:11  conservative uses all the freqs
Oct 29 02:07:00  the problem with it is that unlike ondemand, its  sampling rate is too slow
Oct 29 02:08:54  it has more tunables, which we can't use, as sampling of 0.5s is too slow
Oct 29 02:09:10  ondemand uses 0.172s
Oct 29 02:18:09  weird, crossover is a 25 meg shell script for linux
Oct 29 02:18:22  Self-extracting archive.
Oct 29 02:18:37  ok, good setting for ondemand is 40 for up_threshold
Oct 29 02:19:03  makes it match activity well
Oct 29 02:19:09  maybe even 50
Oct 29 02:20:01  as high as it doesn't affect speed :)
Oct 29 02:20:33  80 is too high :)
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