**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Wed Oct 29 02:59:57 2008 Oct 29 03:02:01 craigslist is fast on the tablet at least Oct 29 03:53:52 can i move my system directories from the 256 to the 2gb? Oct 29 03:54:08 fiekia, yes Oct 29 03:54:38 http://wiki.maemo.org/Booting_from_a_flash_card Oct 29 03:55:08 oh wow, that works too Oct 29 03:55:51 the 2GB is essentially an sd card soldered onto the n810's circuit board :) Oct 29 03:56:48 right i knew that much Oct 29 03:57:08 it seems slow though, maybe the removable would be faster? Oct 29 03:57:22 anyone know what class the internal is? Oct 29 04:00:43 err, if someone responded, i didnt get it Oct 29 04:00:57 no one responded Oct 29 04:01:03 I'd answer but I have an n800 Oct 29 04:01:27 some people probably benchmarked it on itt. you could at least run the same benchmark and see how your speeds line up: http://www.internettablettalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=11695 Oct 29 04:02:34 ill look into that Oct 29 04:03:08 i might try to get ubuntu mobile working now that i know i can boot to flash Oct 29 04:03:35 will be on later Oct 29 04:03:48 fiekia, check deblet out :) Oct 29 06:09:00 hey again Oct 29 06:09:07 hallo :) Oct 29 06:09:51 where should I add my ondemand settings to set them on startup? Oct 29 06:10:17 It's ondemand by default. . . . Oct 29 06:11:09 but with 80% up_threshold Oct 29 06:11:20 not 50% with powersave bias Oct 29 06:11:29 hijack a random file under /etc/rc2.d or make your own Oct 29 06:11:35 which means much less responsive and laggier Oct 29 06:11:41 mhm... Oct 29 06:12:06 sadly os2008 has no /etc/rc.local which would be the *right* place for a one-liner Oct 29 06:12:57 johnx, bug? Oct 29 06:13:17 GeneralAntilles, probably the result of a package they left out Oct 29 06:13:24 I'll check in a sec Oct 29 06:13:26 johnx, two-liner :) Oct 29 06:13:31 Either way, have you filed a bug? Oct 29 06:13:47 no, I have not, yet Oct 29 06:15:38 * GeneralAntilles is cold. Oct 29 06:15:59 everytime someone doesn't file a bug, you die a little inside? Oct 29 06:16:19 Nah, it's below freezing outside and I refuse to turn on the heater. Oct 29 06:16:36 holy craps. It's 68F here Oct 29 06:16:36 But I will take away their right to complain until they do. :P Oct 29 06:16:53 GeneralAntilles, I think it's the result of an architecture choice Oct 29 06:17:36 Fair enough, but it would be nice to at least have some sort of explanation Oct 29 06:17:46 how do I add the script to the runlevel? Oct 29 06:18:04 some command, or old-school ln -s? Oct 29 06:18:11 ah, just do ln -s Oct 29 06:18:28 there's a maemo services control panel plugin though if you want to do it the fancy GUI way Oct 29 06:18:28 and since there seems to be more than a few people wanting to add scripts to the startup, and thanks to the brittleness of Maemo's boot procedure, it's probably better to not have them messing around where things can break easily. Oct 29 06:18:59 rc.local is just as likely to break things Oct 29 06:19:22 in fact it's probably better to have it be a little scary instead of really accessible :) Oct 29 06:19:24 AStorm, The original ondemamd setting is set by initfs and kernel so you can remount one rw amd recompile the other :p Oct 29 06:19:33 hi everyone Oct 29 06:19:38 yeah right Oct 29 06:19:52 as if I have time for that Oct 29 06:20:00 moreover, I think not having initscripts (the package including rc.local) is the *right* architectural choice if it's not needed, which it appears not to be Oct 29 06:20:12 my Gentoo stint is scheduled for later Oct 29 06:21:57 ah, shove your changed in /mnt/initfs/linuxrc Oct 29 06:22:14 that seems like the most "right: place if you're into that sort of thing Oct 29 06:23:23 well, Nokia shnould consider it to be default Oct 29 06:24:10 improves perfomance multiple-fold Oct 29 06:24:20 well then talk to them, by all means :) Oct 29 06:24:28 not sure if how much battery life it costs Oct 29 06:24:36 none at idle at least Oct 29 06:24:41 up_threshhold 80 is the generic cpufreq default, right? Oct 29 06:24:46 yes Oct 29 06:25:11 they'd prpbably welcome suggestions then Oct 29 06:25:50 maybe :) Oct 29 06:26:25 according to my log, this setting neatly uses cpu when needed Oct 29 06:26:54 50%? Oct 29 06:27:01 anyways, I'm off into the real world. 'later Oct 29 06:27:12 when usage is over 50% current, yes Oct 29 06:27:17 * Pavlov perks up at multiple-fold performance improvements Oct 29 06:27:36 earlier setting was far too close to powersave :) Oct 29 06:28:35 * GeneralAntilles sells Pavlov an N810 CPU upgrade kit. Oct 29 06:29:03 if you want to put an cortex-a9 in my n810 i'll put it in the mail _right now_ Oct 29 06:29:29 * GeneralAntilles drools. Oct 29 06:29:52 Handheld computing is going to be something else in a few years. Oct 29 06:30:53 would be fun to get a multicore cortex-a9 Oct 29 06:30:58 not sure what i'd do with it Oct 29 06:31:01 but i'd find something! Oct 29 06:31:10 Somebody should wedge an Overo into an N800. Oct 29 06:31:30 i should hook up an eink screen to my broken n810 Oct 29 06:32:06 Hrm, does the Mugen battery actually have a separate battery cover or is the battery the cover? Oct 29 06:32:29 separate cover iirc Oct 29 06:32:35 Mmm Oct 29 06:32:37 Excellent Oct 29 06:32:52 That leaves plenty of room to scramble up the insides to put an Overo in. Oct 29 06:33:17 benson wedged a mugen into his n800 Oct 29 06:34:17 yerga, if noone else does it, i'll upload octave Oct 29 06:38:25 I'd hack more memory into n810... possible? Oct 29 06:41:01 as in RAM Oct 29 06:41:19 I suspect it uses some cheap chip Oct 29 06:42:25 hehe, according to Oct 29 06:42:45 this, it's combo ddr :p Oct 29 06:42:57 is there any way to get libhildonfm2 1:2.0.2 for the wimax edition? Oct 29 06:43:12 stupid h-i-m Oct 29 06:43:25 also, is there any difference between the wimaxpre release and the version being sold now? Oct 29 06:44:52 tell the person to update their program. 1:2.0.2 is old ass Oct 29 06:46:00 qwerty12_N80O: skype and many othe programs require it Oct 29 06:46:41 hmm, that's odd. what version is your tablet at the moment? Oct 29 06:47:39 qwerty12_N80O: it the OS2008 0.2008.14-9 Oct 29 06:48:50 that's pretty old. i'm running 4,2008.36-5 here. see if you can update it or something Oct 29 06:49:28 qwerty12_N80O: is that a wimax 810? Oct 29 06:49:29 have this and test your cpufreq Oct 29 06:49:32 http://wklej.org/id/13680/ Oct 29 06:49:49 ryoohki, plain n800 Oct 29 06:50:29 wimax n810 should be running latest chinook Oct 29 06:50:53 or diablo even Oct 29 06:50:55 AStorm: when will dialo be available foor it? Oct 29 06:51:09 it is already Oct 29 06:51:17 for n800, obviously not Oct 29 06:52:14 AStorm, that pastebbin's plaintext sucks ;) Oct 29 06:52:25 why? Oct 29 06:52:32 it sends utf-8 Oct 29 06:52:52 i wgetted it and it sent it with CRLF >.< Oct 29 06:53:04 hmmh? Oct 29 06:53:24 AStorm: latest diablo available for n800 Oct 29 06:53:27 http://wklej.org/id/13680/txt Oct 29 06:53:36 ryoohki, there's none Oct 29 06:53:49 and it will take time I suspect Oct 29 06:54:06 how can i know chinook from diablo? Oct 29 06:54:17 I'm runnung Version: 4.2008.36-5 on my n810 Oct 29 06:54:38 this is diablo, .34 is chinook Oct 29 06:54:43 or something Oct 29 06:54:58 no, 2.2007 is chinook Oct 29 06:55:05 ah right Oct 29 06:55:36 how can one know the hw version? Oct 29 06:55:55 ryoohki, hw? as in n810 wimax or not? Oct 29 06:56:28 I'd try Control Panel->About product Oct 29 06:56:51 AStorm: not the sw version but the hw version. some things have hw versions Oct 29 06:57:10 ... Oct 29 06:57:17 it's mentioned in the box Oct 29 06:57:18 wimax n810 = rx-48 Oct 29 06:57:22 on top Oct 29 06:57:28 yes, that too Oct 29 06:57:40 and diablo tells about wimax too Oct 29 06:57:43 there must not be a new sw update for it Oct 29 06:58:23 hmm? Oct 29 06:59:47 check with the windows flasher, it's got the upper hand over tablets-dev anyway Oct 29 06:59:55 when i look for firmware updates, it say my 12 digit code is wrong but it's typed in carefully Oct 29 07:01:07 ryoohki, where? Oct 29 07:01:20 Nowhere where you would put in a MAC has FIASCO images for the RX-48 Oct 29 07:02:56 i'm in san jose, ca Oct 29 07:03:27 Where did you type in the MAC address. Oct 29 07:03:31 GA: huh? Oct 29 07:03:52 The 12-digit code. Oct 29 07:03:53 in the nokia firmware download page Oct 29 07:04:00 ryoohki, which page? Oct 29 07:04:01 There are several Oct 29 07:04:15 you've tried to dl n810 firmware I guess Oct 29 07:04:34 not wimax n810 Oct 29 07:04:55 http://tablets-dev.nokia.com/nokia_N810.php Oct 29 07:05:10 ryoohki, WRONG page Oct 29 07:05:13 :) Oct 29 07:05:39 ryoohki, the WiMAX edition firmware isn't available yet. Oct 29 07:05:51 hehe Oct 29 07:05:56 I wonder why Oct 29 07:05:59 But it doesn't really matter, because A. It probably ships with the latest firmware anyway, and B. Software updates are done through the Application Manager now anyway. Oct 29 07:06:16 there are tons of wimax fixes in latest diablo Oct 29 07:06:22 AStorm, I dunno, we're missing 30-2 and 36-5 for RX-34 and RX-44, too. Oct 29 07:06:38 https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=3808 Oct 29 07:06:42 36-5 is ok Oct 29 07:06:48 Marcell and Quim have been poking the relevant people, anyway. Oct 29 07:06:49 that's SSU-able Oct 29 07:07:37 :) Oct 29 07:07:55 qwerty12_N80O, liked the script? Oct 29 07:08:04 how do i set up ssu on the n810? Oct 29 07:08:14 is it set up like that already? Oct 29 07:08:18 Yes Oct 29 07:08:24 It'll notify you of updates. Oct 29 07:08:29 ~ssu Oct 29 07:08:30 [ssu] http://wiki.maemo.org/SSU Oct 29 07:08:45 it is enabled in newer systems, yes Oct 29 07:08:47 Hrm, anybody happen to have the flashing statusbar update icon they could take a screenshot of for me? Oct 29 07:09:02 including kernel and initfs upgrade Oct 29 07:09:12 AStorm, haven't run it yet. i'll wait 'till i'm a computer to change it because i hate copy + paste on the n800 Oct 29 07:09:33 then wget the url with /txt Oct 29 07:09:47 http://wklej.org/id/13680/txt - this Oct 29 07:10:03 i did and that's where the crlf stuff comes from. Oct 29 07:10:07 jmust use http 1.1 Oct 29 07:10:10 good night Oct 29 07:10:41 qwerty12_N80O, it uses host detection, use http 1.1 of wget Oct 29 07:10:51 or the browser Oct 29 07:17:35 life's good with a nice data plan :) Oct 29 07:18:11 but I'd prefer an n810-turned-iphone :) Oct 29 07:18:30 one less piece of junk to carry in my pocket Oct 29 07:19:05 (obviously, it'd need voice, video, sms and mms soft) Oct 29 07:21:00 and brobably a tiny bit more cpu Oct 29 07:21:07 *probably Oct 29 07:22:57 Hello ! Oct 29 07:23:11 hi Oct 29 07:29:33 * Stskeeps yawns Oct 29 07:29:48 it's contagious! Oct 29 07:35:31 indeed Oct 29 07:38:13 btw, does anyone around has a list of baud rates accepted by Linux? Oct 29 07:38:32 I need one for ppp over usb Oct 29 07:39:00 the usual? :P Oct 29 07:39:08 115200 is a good shot? :P Oct 29 07:39:15 to test with atleast Oct 29 07:39:17 no, it's too low Oct 29 07:39:36 that gives 120 kB/s Oct 29 07:39:44 we speaking ppp over usb-serial or? Oct 29 07:39:53 yes Oct 29 07:40:11 as in cdc_acm modem Oct 29 07:41:14 good question really O_o Oct 29 07:41:23 i'm not sure how low level it emulates a serial line Oct 29 07:41:39 cos i've seen places the baud is irrelevant for usb Oct 29 07:42:05 it is relevant Oct 29 07:42:34 the device connected to usb dongle might not be fast enough to handle high baud rate Oct 29 07:42:45 i've set it to 921600 for now Oct 29 07:43:14 which is above max 7.2Mb available from hsdpa Oct 29 07:45:52 not that my current cellphone can handle anything more than 3.6Mb Oct 29 07:47:32 and also I'd have to be very lucky to even hit that speed :> Oct 29 07:51:52 moo again Oct 29 08:02:13 hmm Oct 29 08:02:34 it seems the 266 MHz speed is shunned by apps :> Oct 29 08:04:08 I'll try with a slightly higher threshold Oct 29 08:04:29 (than 50) Oct 29 08:18:32 Morning, all Oct 29 08:19:49 morning, Jaffa Oct 29 08:32:30 Jaffa, think we should try to get Nokia to generate some icons for the categories? Oct 29 08:33:48 Yeah :-) Oct 29 08:34:17 Will be a lot better integrated than a random GNOME or KDE theme. Oct 29 08:36:33 ok. is there another web browser for diablo other than microb? Oct 29 08:37:00 i'd love something that supported zimbra and rendered it correctly Oct 29 08:37:25 <`0660> fennec? Oct 29 08:37:32 hm Oct 29 08:37:39 havent tried it Oct 29 08:37:49 <`0660> though i don't think it's ready for day to day use yet Oct 29 08:38:28 can you point me towards a project page? Oct 29 08:38:47 google mozilla fennec Oct 29 08:38:47 microb is kinda killing me w/ zimbra Oct 29 08:38:57 Macer: too slow? Oct 29 08:39:04 need to access the briefcases Oct 29 08:39:14 no.. rendering is bad Oct 29 08:39:52 it doesnt place frames in the correct place in ajax/advanced mode Oct 29 08:40:33 forces the content frames to the left where the list panes are Oct 29 08:41:00 so my email list is behind the folder menus on the left Oct 29 08:41:12 might be because of the screen size Oct 29 08:41:19 nope Oct 29 08:41:42 deblet + Iceweasel Oct 29 08:41:54 work just fine w/ same size Oct 29 08:42:11 it it an obvious rendering problem Oct 29 08:42:17 ah, i see Oct 29 08:42:26 well, try fennec :) Oct 29 08:42:28 fennec tho huh? Oct 29 08:42:36 where can i get it? Oct 29 08:42:42 !google maemo fennec Oct 29 08:42:44 hm Oct 29 08:42:47 sec... Oct 29 08:44:03 tnx.. looking for fennec on google now trying to find out where to dl Oct 29 08:44:49 https://wiki.mozilla.org/Mobile/Fennec/Releases Oct 29 08:45:13 Macer: that has a small howto Oct 29 08:45:17 thanks Oct 29 08:45:22 https://wiki.mozilla.org/Image:Appman-dialogs.png - haha, 77kb my arse Oct 29 08:45:34 it actually takes more than those 77KB showed, as it's also installing xulrunner Oct 29 08:45:36 qwerty12: ;) Oct 29 08:45:46 qwerty12: actually, fennec *is* 77KB :) Oct 29 08:45:49 packaged Oct 29 08:45:57 xulrunner is 26MB though ;) Oct 29 08:46:03 aquatix: I know that ;) but if xulrunner is a dependency, then in the end, it's a hell of a lot more than 77kb Oct 29 08:46:10 indeed Oct 29 08:46:18 i LOL'ed too when i did that howto Oct 29 08:47:39 Macer, did you file a bug? Oct 29 08:58:33 GeneralAntilles no but i will soon Oct 29 08:58:57 although it may be the zimbra side of things Oct 29 08:59:31 thanks a ton aquatix .. will let you know how it goes Oct 29 08:59:57 Morning. Oct 29 09:00:11 lcuk: Nice video! :) Oct 29 09:07:51 * Jaffa despairs at a thread on ITT: "Just here! my new Reopository for chinook" - I hope it's an old thread which has just had some activity Oct 29 09:10:20 Ah, phew. It is. Oct 29 09:14:59 Jaffa: :) Oct 29 09:19:38 hm Oct 29 09:19:56 fennec renders the email correctly Oct 29 09:20:21 but messes up for the briefcases :) Oct 29 09:20:37 :) Oct 29 09:21:17 no wait Oct 29 09:21:30 it renders just as bad as microb Oct 29 09:22:01 maybe i can find a different way to use the briefcases Oct 29 09:22:23 like maybe zimbra has a java ftpd or something Oct 29 09:22:40 fennec is horrible though ;) Oct 29 09:23:05 yeah, i uninstalled it rather quickly Oct 29 09:23:09 it's quite unresponsive Oct 29 09:23:14 microb is great other than its inability to render zimbra's ajax mode Oct 29 09:23:23 haha Oct 29 09:23:44 yeah, and that replacement to the smart url bar in ff Oct 29 09:23:52 btw, if you uninstall, be sure to delete your ~/.mozilla/fennec dir too Oct 29 09:23:59 saved me another 2.3MB Oct 29 09:24:07 that pops up the smarturl stuff Oct 29 09:24:09 yeah, that's weird Oct 29 09:24:14 it's interesting Oct 29 09:24:16 but slow Oct 29 09:24:21 takes up like 100% cpu Oct 29 09:24:28 and takes a little getting used to i guess Oct 29 09:24:35 i disable that in ff on a desktop Oct 29 09:24:39 mozilla foundation perverted autotools as buildsystem Oct 29 09:24:46 it it a bad feature Oct 29 09:24:47 for all stuff Oct 29 09:25:11 the smartbar was a step backwards Oct 29 09:25:15 and now the refusing to fix it, you have to rely on stoneage autoconf Oct 29 09:25:27 haha Oct 29 09:25:51 * aquatix actually likes the desktop smartbar of Fx3 Oct 29 09:26:01 i hate it Oct 29 09:26:02 it adapted quickly to me Oct 29 09:26:13 did you try it for longer than a day? Oct 29 09:26:20 * Jaffa loves it. Oct 29 09:26:33 Would be nicer if, if there was a single result shown, enter to select it. Oct 29 09:26:35 and what makes it so bad is that you cant just click on a checkbox to disable Oct 29 09:27:04 aquatix .. no.. i hated it right away Oct 29 09:27:30 i thought it was a waste of the .0001% of cpu ;) Oct 29 09:27:35 Macer: well, after about a day it has some knowledge of your habits, and it gets a lot nicer Oct 29 09:27:45 It's ungodly slow here. Oct 29 09:27:55 i just cant stand forced distractions Oct 29 09:27:56 Good thing I don't use Firefox. ;) Oct 29 09:28:05 GeneralAntilles: :) Oct 29 09:28:25 GeneralAntilles: just curious, what browser do you use? Oct 29 09:28:28 that thing reminded me of the office paperclip Oct 29 09:28:29 GeneralAntilles: dont look at the source code, otherwise you would cry Oct 29 09:28:35 I have a suspicion that they actually use x86 emulation for Firefox on PPC. Oct 29 09:28:42 It's unbelievably slow on PPC machines. Oct 29 09:28:50 ah Oct 29 09:28:51 haha Oct 29 09:28:52 aquatix, OmniWeb Oct 29 09:29:03 i just use safari on my g3 Oct 29 09:29:07 ah, an OmniWeb user, nice :) Oct 29 09:29:14 I love the tab bar. Oct 29 09:29:30 s/bar/drawer/ Oct 29 09:29:30 GeneralAntilles meant: I love the tab drawer. Oct 29 09:30:19 yeah.. fennec gets a 2 Oct 29 09:30:25 or 1 Oct 29 09:30:31 Fennec just hit alpha Oct 29 09:30:50 Should be more interesting once we get a later alpha or beta release. Oct 29 09:30:52 fennec needs a lot of polishing/optimisations Oct 29 09:31:06 speedups would make it a lot more usable already Oct 29 09:31:18 as the gui already looks nice-ish Oct 29 09:31:25 Performance is a blocker for release, anyway. Oct 29 09:31:31 indeed Oct 29 09:31:36 and a rendering engine that supports zimbra ;) Oct 29 09:31:41 (final) Oct 29 09:31:48 guess it's back to deblet Oct 29 09:31:59 heh Oct 29 09:32:16 :) Oct 29 09:33:02 deblet would own maemo once they get a couple things fixed in it Oct 29 09:33:36 but sts and johnx are polishing the install/hardware support first which is great Oct 29 09:33:39 Hopefully Maemo will be moving to better upstream compliance. Oct 29 09:33:52 Macer: hoping to use deblet as a way to improve maemo into a more sane platform :P Oct 29 09:33:58 tnx for the help.. bbl Oct 29 09:44:28 macer; 'own maemo'? Oct 29 09:45:21 Jaffa: as in `pwn' Oct 29 09:45:44 `being better than' Oct 29 09:46:05 aquatix: indeed. But given deblet is still using Maemo's power management, kernel, wireless drivers, battery charging, Hildon (or was that another Debian effort?) - I fail to see the pwnage Oct 29 09:46:32 ah :) Oct 29 09:46:40 :) Oct 29 09:46:43 * aquatix should try deblet Oct 29 09:46:49 * Jaffa is hip with the young kids, and stuff. Oct 29 09:46:54 ghehe Oct 29 09:47:01 !age Jaffa Oct 29 09:47:06 30 Oct 29 09:47:11 oh, that's not old Oct 29 09:47:17 See, told you :) Oct 29 09:47:42 * aquatix is only 4 revisions behind Jaffa Oct 29 09:47:57 * qwerty12 svn updates aquatix Oct 29 09:48:03 nooess Oct 29 09:48:16 * aquatix sees conflicts all over the place now Oct 29 09:49:01 Jaffa: it's just for fun project anyway :> Oct 29 09:49:13 and only hildon as a choice Oct 29 09:50:15 Jaffa, I wouldn't call the kernel Maemo's seeing as the only maemo reference in the kernel is the debian packaging Oct 29 09:50:24 Stskeeps: indeed - and it's fantastic, don't get me wrong. I'm just trying to manage expectations of people Oct 29 09:50:39 qwerty12: true, but with the binary blobs it's not possible to change the kernel revision is it? Oct 29 09:50:55 qwerty12, well, s/Maemo/Nokia/ Oct 29 09:51:19 Jaffa, I hope that changes with linux-omap & the open source wifi driver :) Oct 29 09:51:27 :) Oct 29 09:55:40 heh.. sorry Oct 29 09:55:59 maemo is good for quick hits to do things Oct 29 09:56:24 but once deblet is polished it will be 10x more powerful Oct 29 09:56:51 well.. more powerfil than hildon i suppose you can say Oct 29 09:57:05 *powerful Oct 29 09:57:14 I don't get using a desktop DE on a tablet. Oct 29 09:57:21 Me neither. Oct 29 09:57:31 An entirely bizarre desire. Oct 29 09:57:33 I didn't like it on an Eee (in general) Oct 29 09:57:39 de cups support ;) Oct 29 09:57:47 for one Oct 29 09:57:57 * aquatix rather likes the Maemo/Hildon gui Oct 29 09:58:03 better "window" management Oct 29 09:58:19 "better" Oct 29 09:58:21 aquatix .. i do too Oct 29 09:58:28 overlapping windows really suck for finger usage. Oct 29 09:58:30 only gripe is the focus stealing Oct 29 09:58:42 windows popping to the front on some change Oct 29 09:58:48 MicroB Oct 29 09:58:53 indeed ;) Oct 29 09:59:03 That bug needs to be a blocker for Fremantle. Oct 29 09:59:12 overlapping windows would make more sense on a bigger screen with more pixels Oct 29 09:59:21 GeneralAntilles: yeah :/ Oct 29 09:59:51 aquatix .. i didnt mind it Oct 29 10:00:09 Macer: having overlapping windows? Oct 29 10:00:18 i think using pb's kde was a good experience Oct 29 10:00:32 whoa: http://www.divinecaroline.com/article/22319/57217-fonts-imitating-life--four-well-written Oct 29 10:00:46 other than the fact he released it as a huge meta type install Oct 29 10:01:10 with a ton of apps i wouldnt have normally installed Oct 29 10:01:41 * GeneralAntilles is ready to kill somebody over https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=2405 Oct 29 10:03:05 GeneralAntilles, That and the backspace key one where pressing it in a form sometimes goes a page pack makes me want to commit a mass-murder Oct 29 10:03:12 s/pack/back/ Oct 29 10:03:15 qwerty12 meant: GeneralAntilles, That and the backspace key one where pressing it in a form sometimes goes a page back makes me want to commit a mass-murder Oct 29 10:03:20 It's amazing that they even let it ship with those bugs. Oct 29 10:03:31 https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=3179 Oct 29 10:03:32 Too Oct 29 10:04:20 qwerty12, any chance on x11vnc in Extras? :( Oct 29 10:04:49 GeneralAntilles, Not by me :(. I'm using a hacked up version myself :( Oct 29 10:04:59 Crap Oct 29 10:05:06 I need libssl 0.9.7 Oct 29 10:05:10 hm Oct 29 10:05:15 I have qtnx ready Oct 29 10:05:30 no need for vnc crap Oct 29 10:05:34 anymore Oct 29 10:07:04 GeneralAntilles, If you can edit the dependencie (I'd offer but I'm in windows), you can install it and then symlink libssl 0.9.8 to libssl 0.9.7 Oct 29 10:07:06 EHLO all whom I haven't greeted yet today Oct 29 10:07:12 s/dependencie/dependency Oct 29 10:07:17 'ello RST38h Oct 29 10:07:34 * GeneralAntilles is too lazy to add Chinook Extras. Oct 29 10:07:48 Somebody else want to grab a screenshot of the update icon in the statusbar for me? Oct 29 10:07:51 General: BTW any news from Nokia on when external keyboards will start working correctly? Oct 29 10:08:12 They work correctly now. Oct 29 10:08:37 GeneralAntilles cant you use gpe-scap? Oct 29 10:08:42 GeneralAntilles and ssh? Oct 29 10:08:59 General: There is lag Oct 29 10:09:16 Eh, lag is what it is. Oct 29 10:09:18 + there is some skipping/repeating, but the main problem is 1-2 seconds of lag Oct 29 10:09:25 I doubt it's a particularly easy thing to fix, personally. Oct 29 10:09:33 But you can't type with 1-2 second lag, really =( Oct 29 10:09:34 I've never seen skipping. Oct 29 10:09:42 and it's nowhere near 1-2 here. Oct 29 10:10:03 Lots of people report lag with both USB and BT keyboards Oct 29 10:10:10 Yes, I've seen it Oct 29 10:10:13 but it's not 1-2 seconds. Oct 29 10:10:17 For BT I would understand but why the hell would USB do it? Oct 29 10:10:26 General: try typing in Gnumeric Oct 29 10:10:28 It's the input method, certainly. Oct 29 10:10:36 and, thus, not necessarily a simple fix. Oct 29 10:11:16 it is very annoying though: I ended up not using BT keyboard I bought Oct 29 10:11:22 Good lord my install is messed up. Oct 29 10:11:38 RST38h, anyway, if there's progress, you'll hear about it on the bug. Oct 29 10:11:54 hopefully Oct 29 10:15:36 is microb considered nokia software? Oct 29 10:15:49 Maemo Software-software Oct 29 10:15:54 tnx Oct 29 10:25:04 when i bring mz tablet places, people ask about it... i wish we somehow had more ... mindshare among the public at large Oct 29 10:25:32 -me kicks germanz for swapping y ande z Oct 29 10:25:48 hail mgedmin Oct 29 10:25:57 -join #politics Oct 29 10:25:59 All hail the hypnotoad Oct 29 10:26:12 moooo Oct 29 10:26:15 http://r33b.net/ Oct 29 10:26:28 pme pheers Oct 29 10:26:31 Hehe Oct 29 10:27:22 and thank zou windows xp for xovering the xchat text-entrz field with zour stupid status bar Oct 29 10:27:23 * GeneralAntilles recalls an engine sound for a car in Redline that (completely by accident) ended up sounding exactly like the hypnotoad. Oct 29 10:27:58 brrrzrzzrzrrrzrzrzrrrrrrrrzrzrrrzrrz Oct 29 10:28:59 morning a;; Oct 29 10:29:24 hi ;ardman Oct 29 10:29:49 lol, hi qwerty12 Oct 29 10:30:01 :) Oct 29 10:30:10 you use the tube much? Oct 29 10:30:21 ~lart Windows focus stealing applications Oct 29 10:30:21 * infobot gives Windows focus stealing applications a good seeing to Oct 29 10:30:33 I haven't used it recently :/ Oct 29 10:30:54 I've found what I think is a newer version of metromap, is pretty cool Oct 29 10:31:12 Ah, cool, this will be useful :) Oct 29 10:31:36 I'll stick a tarball up, and try to join the Garage project Oct 29 10:31:43 * qwerty12 used to have metro on my ppc Oct 29 10:32:49 pupnik: Here? Oct 29 10:33:06 there Oct 29 10:33:13 Hi there Oct 29 10:33:16 bug #3832 ;) Oct 29 10:33:32 Hey, gnuton, do you mind moving the Qt pages? Oct 29 10:33:52 We don't generally use namespaces for regular articles Oct 29 10:33:54 Hi GeneralAntilles ! Oct 29 10:34:18 http://wiki.maemo.org/Qt4_Hildon:_Packaging_a_Qt_application should move to "Packaging a Qt application" Oct 29 10:34:19 for example Oct 29 10:34:37 Or I can move the pages and fix the links if you prefer. Oct 29 10:35:00 GeneralAntilles: yes, you can do it for me. Thank you Oct 29 10:38:35 gnuton, done. Also: http://wiki.maemo.org/Category:Qt Oct 29 10:39:08 hey gnuton! :) Oct 29 10:39:57 gnuton: there is now a quassel stand alone app, that doesn't need a core to connect to. I thought you might be interessted Oct 29 10:42:23 EgS: That's great. where is the code? Oct 29 10:42:30 EgS: are you a Quassel Developer? Oct 29 10:43:05 gnuton: it's in the git repository: git.quassel-irc.org/quassel.git (I think...) Oct 29 10:43:21 gnuton: jeah we met at devdays in munich and I sent you an email recently Oct 29 10:44:02 Okay! Nice to see you again so! :D Oct 29 10:45:20 EgS: the real problem of quassel (and the most of Qt app in Hildon) is the adapt the UI to the small screen. Oct 29 10:46:55 do keywords for a bug have to come from the list provided? Oct 29 10:47:20 Generally speaking, I'd say yes. Oct 29 10:47:28 But I don't know what's involved in adding new ones. Oct 29 10:47:30 and if nothing matches, then leave blank? Oct 29 10:47:34 Sounds like a question for andre___. Oct 29 10:47:40 andre___: ping Oct 29 10:47:50 * lardman remembers getting told off last time he added a bug Oct 29 10:47:59 hi gnutoo Oct 29 10:48:12 Generally speaking, I don't think it's like tagging in the flickr sense Oct 29 10:48:21 ah, I'll add it, I can always add keywords later on Oct 29 10:48:37 but more a specific set of keywords that may or may not be appropriate for any particular bug. Oct 29 10:49:09 * andre___ reads the backlog Oct 29 10:49:23 GeneralAntilles: thank you for the support on the Wiki. Oct 29 10:49:41 andre___: it's just a few up, about what I should add for keywords to a new bug Oct 29 10:49:45 lardman, want a new keyword, talk to me :) you can't set arbitrary values, that's what the status whiteboard is for Oct 29 10:49:47 GeneralAntilles: Let me know if you find other issue in my pages. Oct 29 10:49:57 andre___: right, that's fine, thanks Oct 29 10:50:05 lardman, keyword proposals? :) Oct 29 10:50:09 #3833 is in Oct 29 10:50:10 gnuton, that's the only thing I've noticed. ;) Oct 29 10:50:10 ah, k Oct 29 10:50:12 Glad to help. Oct 29 10:50:16 gnuton I found one Oct 29 10:50:32 andre___: nah, I'm ok; I was wondering if it was free-form and you just add likely search words Oct 29 10:50:35 We don't actually use the whiteboard at all. Oct 29 10:50:35 gnuton the valid subsections on control file are not correct Oct 29 10:50:56 Is that what lardman's actually after? Oct 29 10:51:31 woglinde: only one? I'm very lucky so! :D Oct 29 10:52:11 unfornatly the general blocks the site, so I can not fix it myself Oct 29 10:52:21 https. . . . Oct 29 10:52:45 woglinde: you need to log in first to modify something in the wiki Oct 29 10:52:45 ah oka Oct 29 10:52:47 y Oct 29 10:53:06 You can complain if you're willing to volunteer to delete the truckload of spam we get every morning when anonymous http edits are allowed. Oct 29 10:53:16 * GeneralAntilles will change the text of the ban, though. Oct 29 10:53:57 You can login (via HTTP or HTTPS), or make anonymous edits via HTTPS. Oct 29 10:54:28 * RST38h yawns widely Oct 29 10:54:34 * mgedmin loves how all anonymous edits are recorded as coming from 127.0.0.1 Oct 29 10:54:37 done Oct 29 10:54:47 that's a bug Oct 29 10:54:55 Not really Oct 29 10:54:57 mgedmin: The HTTPS ones shouldn't (unless the system changes have changed the architecture) Oct 29 10:55:01 It's an artifact of the setup. Oct 29 10:55:10 gnuton: yes we really need to redesign the dialogs for the lower screen resolution Oct 29 10:55:17 is a bug Oct 29 10:55:24 The text of the ban now reads: "Anonymous edits over HTTP are not allowed. Log in (using your Garage account) or use HTTPS if you want to edit." Oct 29 10:55:24 caused by the setup Oct 29 10:55:27 ideally, wiki should log IP and perform data mining to figure out supposed email address, postal address, latitude and longitude of the poster Oct 29 10:55:58 This way every spammer can be tracked down and eliminated Oct 29 10:56:03 http://wiki.maemo.org/Talk:Meta:Anonymous_editing#Proposal Oct 29 10:56:04 is using glade slow, specifically in python? Would I be better hand-coding a gui? Oct 29 10:56:13 lardman: no Oct 29 10:56:26 its actually fatser in python, (so i have been told) Oct 29 10:56:26 lardman: Depends on how complex UI you need Oct 29 10:57:11 ok cool Oct 29 10:57:20 will make life easier using glade Oct 29 10:57:40 definitively Oct 29 10:58:02 almost visual basic-like Oct 29 10:58:17 that would be a nice project to do Oct 29 10:59:01 * lardman shows his Windows roots and says he does like VB for writing quick apps Oct 29 10:59:14 * RST38h throws up at the mention of VB Oct 29 10:59:32 well you've got to agree it's got a shallow learning curve Oct 29 10:59:50 Is it a good thing? =) Oct 29 10:59:54 yes Oct 29 11:00:04 depending on what you're writing of course ;) Oct 29 11:00:31 * johnx prefers shell scripting. often a GUI for a throwaway app is a waste... Oct 29 11:01:19 johnx: it's for those in-between ones, too complex to easily do in a shell-script, but can't be arsed to sit and write it in C Oct 29 11:02:01 * Jaffa must try and do some Clutter experimentation this weekend. I read through the tutorial, confident it can now do the effect I want, but I can't decide whether to implement in C (well, no), Vala (would get distracted doing tooling), Java (would get distracted with my GObject Introspection -> Java OO wrapper tooling) or Python Oct 29 11:02:16 oh, you can write anything in bash :P web servers, package management systems, boot managers... Oct 29 11:02:29 *can* ;) Oct 29 11:02:31 johnx: Shell syntax sucks. Oct 29 11:02:36 *g* Oct 29 11:02:52 RST38h, but it's good for controlling other things that run in the shell Oct 29 11:03:03 johnx: yes, but that is what system() is for :) Oct 29 11:03:07 haha lately stumbled over inverted true/false on bash Oct 29 11:03:14 http://www.meow.org.uk/stan/pet_projects/ - talks, SMTP servers, httpds and pop3ds in bash :) Oct 29 11:03:23 I don;t know what all the abuse about VB is for anyway, other than the crap basic, visual gtk+ python would be nice Oct 29 11:03:34 Jaffa: This sounds like a clear choice for Python :) Oct 29 11:04:02 * Stskeeps curses javascript and swears -never- to do web programming again after tomorrow Oct 29 11:04:07 lardman: The abuse about VB resulted from generally crappy quality of software written in VB Oct 29 11:04:19 lardman: Which resulted from easy learning curve Oct 29 11:04:27 yeah Oct 29 11:04:48 * RST38h currently contemplating what he should curse next Oct 29 11:05:21 it's sometimes nice to not have to worry about the GUI stuff and just get on coding the logic Oct 29 11:05:22 Stupid people! Oct 29 11:05:24 ~curse C++ templates for being overblown equivalent of #define Oct 29 11:05:25 May the fleas of a thousand camels infest your most sensitive regions, C++ templates for being overblown equivalent of #define ! Oct 29 11:05:34 General: too easy. Oct 29 11:05:42 RST38h: indeeed, it does. Oct 29 11:05:42 ~curse really crappy Windows focus stealing apps, especially MATLAB! Oct 29 11:05:43 May you be reincarnated as a Windows XP administrator, really crappy Windows focus stealing apps, especially MATLAB! ! Oct 29 11:05:50 * suihkulokki curses in the general direction of BIOS and ACPI Oct 29 11:05:59 How's ESBox and Pluthon for Python development in Eclipse? Do they code complete etc? Oct 29 11:06:01 MATLAB is really a Unix app Oct 29 11:06:08 stop hiding my hardware from me! Oct 29 11:06:18 ~curse qwerty12 for the hell of it Oct 29 11:06:19 May the fleas of a thousand camels infest your most sensitive regions, qwerty12 for the hell of it ! Oct 29 11:06:25 * RST38h smiles evilly at suihkulokki Oct 29 11:06:42 ~curse GeneralAntilles for cursing me Oct 29 11:06:43 May you be reincarnated as a Windows XP administrator, GeneralAntilles for cursing me ! Oct 29 11:06:50 lol Oct 29 11:07:07 ~lart shitty torrents Oct 29 11:07:08 * infobot beats shitty torrents to within 2.54cm of his life Oct 29 11:07:22 ~curse qwerty12 for cursing GeneralAntilles for cursing qwerty12. Oct 29 11:07:23 May the fleas of a thousand camels infest your most sensitive regions, qwerty12 for cursing GeneralAntilles for cursing qwerty12. ! Oct 29 11:07:39 ~curse infobot Oct 29 11:07:40 May you be reincarnated as a Windows XP administrator, infobot ! Oct 29 11:07:46 hmm, not much ego Oct 29 11:08:02 ~curse GeneralAntilles for cursing qwerty12 who cursed GeneralAntilles because GeneralAntilles cursed qwerty12 Oct 29 11:08:02 May the fleas of a thousand camels infest your most sensitive regions, GeneralAntilles for cursing qwerty12 who cursed GeneralAntilles because GeneralAntilles cursed qwerty12 ! Oct 29 11:12:05 glad we got that out of our systems Oct 29 11:12:31 ~lart lardman for being a stinker. Oct 29 11:12:31 * infobot follow's lardman with a gauntlet and ... scratch ... HUMILIATION for being a stinker. Oct 29 11:12:36 ~curse lardman for hating qwerty12 who cursed GeneralAntilles for cursing qwerty12 who cursed GeneralAntilles because GeneralAntilles cursed qwerty12 Oct 29 11:12:36 May you be reincarnated as a Windows XP administrator, lardman for hating qwerty12 who cursed GeneralAntilles for cursing qwerty12 who cursed GeneralAntilles because GeneralAntilles cursed qwerty12 ! Oct 29 11:12:58 infobot has poor grammar Oct 29 11:13:11 s/follow's/follows Oct 29 11:13:46 infobot, beat lardman up for insulting you Oct 29 11:13:47 * infobot beats lardman up for insulting you with a dripping-wet & less-than-fresh fish Oct 29 11:14:18 the youth of today! Oct 29 11:14:47 Yeah, infobot does seem a bit violent Oct 29 11:15:33 More people need to review killing the old wiki. Oct 29 11:15:47 http://wiki.maemo.org/Task:Kill_the_old_wiki Oct 29 11:17:42 GeneralAntilles: are you happy with it? Oct 29 11:18:18 I am, but what I consider useful and relevant isn't necessarily what somebody else considers useful and relevant. Oct 29 11:18:45 well with the lack of interest/availability, I'd just "sign it off" and be done with it Oct 29 11:18:59 I'm worried some potentially useful stuff has fallen under my radar and there's going to be some complaining when the stuff is actually deleted. Oct 29 11:19:15 yeah well, people have had long enough Oct 29 11:19:21 is there a deadline date/time Oct 29 11:19:39 send it to the list and give people their last chance, no complaints then Oct 29 11:20:18 November 4th according to the email I sent to -community on Monday. Oct 29 11:27:59 might be worth forwarding it to -dev and -users too to avoid complaints? Oct 29 11:28:19 gives them a working week to bring anything up, and a weekend inbetween which is good Oct 29 11:28:35 I'm inclined to use it as leverage to get people onto -community. Oct 29 11:29:09 If you want to have a say in community issues, you've got to be subscribed to the list. ;) Oct 29 11:29:14 Maybe a blog, though. Oct 29 11:29:34 perhaps, but to avoid any complaints you should tell them that and give them the warning on -developers and -users Oct 29 11:29:45 One suggestion: in the email actually detail some of the pages which'll be deleted and have no corresponding version in the new wiki? Oct 29 11:29:48 herding cats and all that Oct 29 11:29:51 +1 lardman Oct 29 11:30:09 The wiki *content* isn't a community issue if it contains end-user or developer documentation ;-) Oct 29 11:30:19 The implementation of the wiki is a community issue, but not necessarily its content. Oct 29 11:30:40 hmm, not sure about that, but best give non-community cubscribers the benfit of the doubt Oct 29 11:31:27 ICBW, but - anyway - I agree. Oct 29 11:37:56 https://maemo.org/community/council/view/1225280197/ Oct 29 11:38:09 and you two still owe me blogs. Oct 29 11:38:48 who? Oct 29 11:38:58 Who do you think. :P Oct 29 11:39:14 can't I be let of one for providing a good idea? Pleeeeeeese Oct 29 11:39:20 s/of/off Oct 29 11:39:52 ...and patches :-p Oct 29 11:39:54 You can be let off once you post one. :P Oct 29 11:40:05 * Jaffa goes food hunting Oct 29 11:40:29 hmm Oct 29 11:40:42 * lardman wonders if he can string a couple of lines together Oct 29 11:42:24 Jaffa: bow and arrow? Oct 29 11:46:18 no, raygun Oct 29 11:46:19 Nope: just realised that my VMware box's clock hasn't gone back. Oct 29 11:46:21 much more fun Oct 29 11:46:42 But I'll go to OneStop round the corner and get some Crispy Pancakes, or Supernoodles or something Oct 29 11:46:52 with bacon I trust Oct 29 11:46:59 and a bottle of Becks :) Oct 29 11:47:29 * lardman wondered why it was so cold this morning - hadn't reset the clock on the central heating and a frost last night Oct 29 11:47:44 lardman: got a migraine - so no beer. Oct 29 11:48:03 GeneralAntilles: look what your threats have done to the poor man! Oct 29 11:48:06 whisky instead, Jaffa ? Oct 29 11:48:41 "A teenager in Florida who used his 85-year-old grandmother to issue threats with a gun in a "gangsta rap" video has been jailed for 18 months" lolololol Oct 29 11:50:26 lardman, all his troubles will go away if he writes a blog. :P Oct 29 11:50:32 :D Oct 29 11:50:56 are you using your Force-migrane power on him? Oct 29 11:51:05 * GeneralAntilles plays Cheer up Charlie. Oct 29 11:51:41 s/Grandpa Joe/a blog post/ Oct 29 11:59:43 Hello everybody Oct 29 12:01:10 hey wazd Oct 29 12:01:24 Have anybody seen Kontorri in da house? I need his help( Oct 29 12:01:39 hey lardman, I still got issues with the dsp Oct 29 12:01:46 wazd: can I join metromap please Oct 29 12:01:57 baddu1: what's up? Oct 29 12:02:35 I have Titan theme ready for public but I have very messy issue with seekbar skinning Oct 29 12:03:07 lardman: when I got this big junk of memory to be mmapped, i haven't got it to work. if i don't specify where it goes , it tries to put it to daram -> not work. when i specify a memory for that , it says tbl is full -> not work Oct 29 12:03:10 lardman: well, I've losttouch with admin of Metromap project so it's rather frozen( Oct 29 12:03:46 wazd: ok, I've sent a "please can I join", will see if he comes back Oct 29 12:03:47 lardman: i tried to put it in 0x580000 and size was about 0xb000 or sth Oct 29 12:04:05 s/0xb000/0xb0000 Oct 29 12:04:21 baddu1: you used a .cmd file and a #pragma in the code to place is in your memory section? Oct 29 12:04:38 lardman: But I have UI mockups and stuff so if you want to code something it would be great Oct 29 12:04:51 wazd: I ported the hildon changes to the latest upstream metromap, is pretty cool Oct 29 12:05:04 lardman: yep, and it tries to put it there when i use this cmd file. everything seems to be correct. if i change the size to for example 0x10000, it works Oct 29 12:05:07 wazd: yep for sure, I also want to add GPS functionality Oct 29 12:05:26 lardman: it just seems not to accept bigger memory portions than about 0x40000 Oct 29 12:05:37 baddu1: can I see the code & .cmd file please? Oct 29 12:05:56 lardman: well, I think we can start a new project then Oct 29 12:06:13 wazd: we should take over the exsiting one if it's now dormant Oct 29 12:06:21 lardman: yes, i will give them to you after i get home from work :P Oct 29 12:06:33 baddu1: cool Oct 29 12:06:55 lardman: I haven't got Admin rights in the garrage so I can't do anything with it Oct 29 12:07:02 * RST38h is happy wazd and lardman have found each other =) Oct 29 12:07:04 baddu1: it should be possibel to map up to 16Mb of SDRAM afaik, though there's already lots of MEMORY sections mapped so you can't manage that in one section Oct 29 12:07:21 RST38h: xD Oct 29 12:07:29 lardman: but if it complains: "tbl is full", i have seen it before. do you know what that means? Oct 29 12:07:32 lardman: Don't tell me you are adding GPS functionality to metromap Oct 29 12:07:35 X-Fade: what does one do about dormant projects? Not sure if it is yet, will see if I get a response from the admin Oct 29 12:07:52 RST38h: yes, I thought it would be useful Oct 29 12:08:05 baddu1: yes Oct 29 12:08:15 lardman: ping admin, ping admin again, post to -developers, if no response -> take over? Oct 29 12:08:44 baddu1: there aren't many TLBs free, so if you try to map a large region which is less than a whole large page it tries to use lots of little pages and lots of TLBs Oct 29 12:08:53 X-Fade: ok, will do Oct 29 12:08:56 Does anybody have Kontorri's IM contacts? I want to release Titan today :( Oct 29 12:09:16 lardman: I'm just making that up, feel free to do it your way :) Oct 29 12:09:38 baddu1: I don't have the numbers in front of me, but a large page is 0x100000, a small one is 64k bytes Oct 29 12:09:49 lardman: ok, good to know. do you how big the pages are, so what could be a good ... ok you answered already :) Oct 29 12:09:52 so 1MB or 64kB (bytes) Oct 29 12:10:27 see the avs_kernelcfg.cmd file, it maps some large MEMORY sections in a single TLB, or look at dmesg just after boot Oct 29 12:10:43 Or maybe there is another Theme Jedi in here?) Oct 29 12:10:55 lardman: so it should work if i map 0x100000 size of memory instead of 0xb0000 Oct 29 12:11:27 yes; you should have seen an error in dmesg about lacking TLBs of course Oct 29 12:12:02 just that I thought the entire task load failed if a sharedmemory mapping failed Oct 29 12:12:03 yes i did, but it shouldn't happen when mapping 0x100000 ? Oct 29 12:12:21 no, that or 0x10000 should be fine Oct 29 12:12:26 (64kB) Oct 29 12:12:51 yes, i'll try that. Oct 29 12:12:56 cool Oct 29 12:13:05 I'd still be interested to see your code later on :) Oct 29 12:13:32 you'll be shocked about how horribly it looks right now :P Oct 29 12:13:44 that's ok, I know the feeling :) Oct 29 12:14:04 RST38h: re gps, for on the surface, finding the closest tube stop, not for underground! ;) Oct 29 12:14:10 just have tried to get it to compile and then to be able to load and see some prints that it's actually loaded and running Oct 29 12:16:29 lardman: ah Oct 29 12:17:22 qwerty12_N800: is your ISP "be there" or "bet here" ? ;) Oct 29 12:18:22 lardman, lol, be there. i'm on o2 actually and o2 seem to be in the isp business with be Oct 29 12:18:31 :) Oct 29 12:19:47 * wazd looking for a spell to summon Kontorri Oct 29 12:20:09 wazd, i found kontorri was quite attracted to beer Oct 29 12:20:12 wazd: personal email via garage project? Oct 29 12:20:38 \o afternoon ppl Oct 29 12:20:44 afternoon Oct 29 12:20:51 afternoon Oct 29 12:21:20 hmm, doesn't time fly Oct 29 12:21:21 hey there Oct 29 12:21:29 hi lcuk Oct 29 12:22:23 There's no faster way than e-mail?( Oct 29 12:22:23 is it snowy where you lot are? Oct 29 12:22:49 no, reasonably sunny down south Oct 29 12:22:53 nope, 16C here Oct 29 12:22:56 cos i hated this morning - it should be illegal to even try to snow before at least november Oct 29 12:23:01 and it's night time :) Oct 29 12:23:03 not in london :( Oct 29 12:23:20 it was only a smattering, but then it half defrosted before freezing solid on my car \@/ Oct 29 12:23:37 well, it's rather cold in Moscow, but no snow) Oct 29 12:24:10 heh, i should really thank my blessings, but manchester feels more like the artic sometimes Oct 29 12:24:36 that's 'cos you spend so long standing outside smoking ;) Oct 29 12:24:58 heh, its not that part that bothers me Oct 29 12:25:00 I should rename "seek bar" into "sick bar" Oct 29 12:25:23 * lcuk keeps pondering something really daft Oct 29 12:25:56 im not even sure i should mention it cos u lot will think im mental Oct 29 12:26:15 is it crazier than getting 30fps fullscreen updates on the n8x0 with no tearing? Oct 29 12:26:35 someone speak Portuguese? Oct 29 12:26:45 heh, its making use of what ive built so far Oct 29 12:26:56 pixies, probably in #canola if nobody shows up here. Oct 29 12:27:15 lcuk, soooo...lcuks' emacs? Oct 29 12:27:21 if anyone ever played with the original playtest i released it had a bit to create arbitary rectangles - just drag and draw Oct 29 12:27:28 no johnx, sillier Oct 29 12:27:31 GeneralAntilles: tanks.. Oct 29 12:27:51 im sick of porting all my working code from vb to c, i might grab a basic interpreter and add on a nice gui designer to it (or use a different core language but allow vb form/control files to be used Oct 29 12:28:45 That's not that crazy. I saw a project at IBM which some interns were doing which took VB and turned it into SWT Java Oct 29 12:28:55 http://gambas.sourceforge.net/ Oct 29 12:29:17 make Python the backend language and I'll be happy Oct 29 12:29:40 jaffa - if i can just bring in the raw form definitions it gets over my current hump of drawing what i want, then having to code it up Oct 29 12:29:40 * wazd have found some ancient script with word "Kontorri" Oct 29 12:29:55 lardman: hm, that looks useful Oct 29 12:30:28 wazd: kagu on Garage, or email him via maemo.org? Oct 29 12:30:32 hmmm, SANDISK MICROSDHC 4 GB, with adapter to "Secure Digital", ( SDSDQ-4096-E12M ), is that compatible with n810? Oct 29 12:30:36 * lcuk fights with vnc to copy&paste that great link Oct 29 12:31:00 lardman, thanks :) i think ive seen that before but that was a long time before i had linux handheld Oct 29 12:31:03 Fatal, well, the card is, but you need a MiniSD -> MicroSD adaptor. Oct 29 12:31:03 Fatal, does it have a micro-sd to mini-sd adapter ? Oct 29 12:31:14 ill see how far i get this weekend with making some basic form ui editor Oct 29 12:31:22 lardman: Well, I think it's the only way( Oct 29 12:31:25 once i do that i can see what else is needed Oct 29 12:31:26 Fatal: if not, you can get such an adapter for cheap at dealextreme.com for example Oct 29 12:31:38 GeneralAntilles / johnx: thanks, looks like there's a adapter bundled Oct 29 12:31:39 * aquatix saw a 16GB microsd today Oct 29 12:32:00 Fatal: yeah, but to normal SD format Oct 29 12:32:03 not to minisd Oct 29 12:32:13 aaaaah, that's another standard, ok Oct 29 12:32:17 wazd: I'd be interested to see your ui mockups, etc., for metromap Oct 29 12:32:20 crap. thanks aquatix Oct 29 12:32:22 well, other size mainly Oct 29 12:32:27 mmm Oct 29 12:32:38 * lcuk is also removing himself from -users and -community :) Oct 29 12:32:40 Fatal: http://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.7184 Oct 29 12:32:50 8GB cards work aswell btw? Oct 29 12:33:08 lcuk, why? Oct 29 12:33:10 Fatal, any card that physically fits will work Oct 29 12:33:24 Fatal: yeah, i have an 8GB sandisk microsd with such an adapter Oct 29 12:33:30 sweet, thanks all Oct 29 12:34:27 GeneralAntilles, im not that great at explaining what i mean and ive seen ppl having to react to the discussion in defensive ways which shouldnt be needed Oct 29 12:34:45 lcuk, -users, sure, but why -community? Oct 29 12:35:03 i responded to the user thinking it was someone in -dev, on my level and understanding Oct 29 12:35:08 lcuk: I agreed entirely with your stuff on -users, btw Oct 29 12:35:55 i normally had -users skipping my inbox, but this one kept up cos it mentioned liqbase Oct 29 12:36:12 i just didnt notice.. Oct 29 12:36:34 * GeneralAntilles would rather lcuk continue contributing his input to -users. Oct 29 12:36:46 We wouldn't want to get to the point where it's just Mark and Darius spewing their FUD. Oct 29 12:36:46 * Jaffa too. Oct 29 12:36:51 * lcuk thought he had cocked up Oct 29 12:37:01 I didn't see anything which was particularly targetted at the wrong level Oct 29 12:37:13 Who is Mark? Has Darius got company? Oct 29 12:37:21 Mark Haury Oct 29 12:37:29 googling... Oct 29 12:37:32 He's more sane, but loves logical fallacies. Oct 29 12:37:49 ha, crap, the stuff available where I intend to buy only have -> SD adapters, the one bundled with both SD and miniSD adapter is out of stock, yay Oct 29 12:38:00 ok. Oct 29 12:38:06 1. Buy microsd card Oct 29 12:38:13 GeneralAntilles, actually that would be great, we could have maemo-community for flamewars and maemo-secret-treehouse for the rest of the "club" :D Oct 29 12:38:23 2. Buy ANY cheap ($5) microsd card with minisd adapter included Oct 29 12:38:24 2. steal underpants Oct 29 12:38:27 maemo-users you mean. Oct 29 12:38:30 3. Connect, insert, enjoy Oct 29 12:38:43 s/community/users/ Oct 29 12:38:44 johnx meant: GeneralAntilles, actually that would be great, we could have maemo-users for flamewars and maemo-secret-treehouse for the rest of the "club" :D Oct 29 12:38:46 johnx, I actually had this happen in another community I'm involved with. Oct 29 12:38:48 GeneralAntilles, isn't that what I said? Oct 29 12:39:18 ah, if only s/ provided real ret-con Oct 29 12:39:38 :) Oct 29 12:39:51 All the cool cats went off and started their own private forum away from the regular one. Oct 29 12:39:58 Worked out pretty well, actually. . . . Oct 29 12:40:12 Time to start the cabal? :P Oct 29 12:41:11 RST38h: true, I feel extremly silly now :) Oct 29 12:42:23 * lcuk wont accept the subscription cancellation, thx guys Oct 29 12:42:55 bbl Oct 29 12:45:00 and sdhc support requires a kernel upgrade right? or has that changed since last year? Oct 29 12:45:30 hmm how can i lock my application way that no one else logged in user can not change my application details? on maemo.org/downloads Oct 29 12:45:30 what? Oct 29 12:45:39 or is this just maemo.org bug Oct 29 12:45:54 sampo_: You can't. Oct 29 12:46:05 Oh hell, I think i've found the problem!) Oct 29 12:46:08 sampo_: It is sort of a wiki type application. Oct 29 12:46:27 X-Fade: hmm ok Oct 29 12:46:38 Fatal, SDHC has been officially supported since Summer 2007. Oct 29 12:46:42 Fatal, For N810/N800 with OS2008, no custom kernel is needed. Oct 29 12:46:58 (and a while before that by the community) Oct 29 12:46:59 X-Fade:how long is the lockup time if someone(unwanted person) edits my app page? Oct 29 12:47:08 sampo_: Why do you want to do that? Oct 29 12:47:22 sampo_: 2 hours orso. Oct 29 12:47:27 GeneralAntilles / qwerty12_N800: thanks Oct 29 12:47:28 X-Fade: okey Oct 29 12:47:36 sampo_: until he/she saves or cancels. Oct 29 12:47:51 *unless Oct 29 12:48:39 X-Fade: so it says "object locked by xxx" for 2 hours after he/she logs out ? Oct 29 12:49:01 sampo_: No, if he/she does nothing and stays on that page. Oct 29 12:49:07 * GeneralAntilles turns on some lights to help heat up the apartment. Oct 29 12:50:24 GeneralAntilles, you have a G5 right? how is that not producing enough heat? Oct 29 12:50:25 X-Fade: still no solution for maemo.org being so slow all the time? Oct 29 12:50:45 Fatal: that dealextreme.com link is very cool btw Oct 29 12:50:52 as they don't ask shipping Oct 29 12:50:52 johnx, cause it's 29°F outside and the insulation isn't great. Oct 29 12:50:53 sampo_: Multiple, but not atm. Oct 29 12:51:11 * aquatix loves dealextreme for their nice collection of gadgets and prices Oct 29 12:51:17 GeneralAntilles, eep! is it usually that cold this time of year? Oct 29 12:51:31 X-Fade: ok Oct 29 12:52:28 johnx, yeah, it gets fairly cold here compared to the rest of the state Oct 29 12:52:33 A little bellow normal Oct 29 12:52:57 it is *already* 29oF? Oct 29 12:53:16 Cold front Oct 29 12:53:28 Should be back into the 50/70s range by the end of the week. Oct 29 12:53:57 Woo, Carman is gonna use Display-Name and Upgrade-Description. Oct 29 12:54:09 oh Oct 29 12:56:49 ouch, my n800 battery is really starting to go south after 1.5 years of use :/ Oct 29 13:00:08 * melmoth always wondered if it s better to keep a n810 plugged it, or to wait untill its battery is emtpy befroe recharchnig it Oct 29 13:00:29 I'm pretty sure the former Oct 29 13:00:34 I think continual topups is best Oct 29 13:00:45 down to ~80% and then charge, or so I remember reading Oct 29 13:02:02 * melmoth re plug his n810 :) Oct 29 13:03:07 li-ion batteries don't like being discharged, nimh and nicd need to be discharged all the way or they develop "memory effects" or somesuch Oct 29 13:04:34 <||cw> I have left my 770 plugged in all the time when not using it and it still gets a good 3 hours active use per charge Oct 29 13:04:49 <||cw> I don't it in battery much though anymore Oct 29 13:05:24 mine's gotten a lot worse since I've been draining it most pretty much daily :/ Oct 29 13:06:01 * GeneralAntilles likes the direction Quim's proposal for h-a-m may be taking. Oct 29 13:06:19 didn't li-ion batteries have limited cycles too? Oct 29 13:06:22 johnx, NiMH has no memory Oct 29 13:06:39 but generally, after about 1.5 to 2 years, li-ion starts to go south anyway Oct 29 13:06:39 NiCD really only has a memory when you're talking about more than one cell. Oct 29 13:07:00 melmoth, the argument for not leaving laptops plugged in all the time is heat Oct 29 13:07:03 ah, interesting Oct 29 13:07:09 GeneralAntilles: Have you seen my response? It doesn't seem to have come though the list yet Oct 29 13:07:19 I grew up in the li-ion generation I guess :/ Oct 29 13:07:24 but since the tablets put out way less heat than a laptop, there's really no issue leaving them plugged in. Oct 29 13:07:26 GeneralAntilles: i take my laptop's battery out when on AC Oct 29 13:07:33 <||cw> it's not that much heat, the charger is intelligent Oct 29 13:07:41 johnx, well, so did I, but I did some pretty dead investigation into battery technology a few years back. ;) Oct 29 13:07:56 aquatix, li-ions degrade significantly faster when they're hot Oct 29 13:08:01 yeah Oct 29 13:08:08 so that's why i take it out Oct 29 13:08:08 Even more so when you toss in the heat of charging. Oct 29 13:08:15 when on about 40% charge Oct 29 13:08:19 lardman, yeah, I saw it. Oct 29 13:08:31 lardman, sounds like more incentive to tie git in a little more closely with Garage. Oct 29 13:08:38 optimum shelving charge of li-ion seems to be 40% Oct 29 13:09:04 Right Oct 29 13:09:04 which explains why my second-hand notebook's battery died from 3 years living in an 80F server room... Oct 29 13:09:05 GeneralAntilles: yes exactly Oct 29 13:09:15 lunch time Oct 29 13:09:20 johnx: 3yr is old for a battery :) Oct 29 13:09:23 If somebody wants to put a little TLC into: https://wiki.maemo.org/Batteries Oct 29 13:09:53 aquatix, it's 7 years old now, but it died around 6 technically Oct 29 13:11:04 interestingly, i generally use a complete charge from a li-ion battery before recharging and that seems to be fine Oct 29 13:12:01 well, without another point of reference it's hard to compare... Oct 29 13:12:27 yeah :/ Oct 29 13:12:41 charge early, charge often Oct 29 13:12:49 sounds like an ideal OSS battery ;) Oct 29 13:12:55 Hehe Oct 29 13:13:24 New battery tech would jump the mobile market years ahead. Oct 29 13:13:30 heh Oct 29 13:13:37 maybe add that if kept in a refridgerator, it's advisable to keep them dry ;) Oct 29 13:13:50 instead we're just getting devices with smaller chips/pcbs so that they can fit bigger batteries Oct 29 13:13:54 there are some interesting new fuel cells Oct 29 13:14:18 when I first saw the n800 I almost laughed at how much of the internal space is battery Oct 29 13:14:49 Hehe Oct 29 13:15:35 ...and my ideal personal server would be a beagle/overo hanging off of a 9cell laptop battery Oct 29 13:16:13 * GeneralAntilles will need to write up a PSA about the package categories for developers. Oct 29 13:16:25 Overo's got 256MB RAM Oct 29 13:16:31 beagle server with 4 usb 1TB drives and a hub, mmmmm Oct 29 13:16:37 Too bad it's got no DSP nor PowerVR Oct 29 13:16:45 Go GeneralAntilles, Go GeneralAntilles! :) Oct 29 13:17:25 X-Fade, well, I was talking to Eduardo this morning about Carman and he wasn't clear on when to change the category (since communication may end up being deprecated) Oct 29 13:17:57 Hopefully the i18n for h-a-m will be done quickly, there'll likely be some delay. Oct 29 13:19:39 carmen should be in app/topgear Oct 29 13:27:11 Motorola potentially lays off 2/3 of workforce and switches to Android Oct 29 13:27:29 RST38h: *g* Oct 29 13:27:49 "so how many eggs should we put in this basket?" "ALL OF THEM!" Oct 29 13:28:22 google forget to put a fixed libprce in Oct 29 13:28:31 * aquatix makes some scrambled eggs Oct 29 13:28:58 johnx: words often spoken while drunk Oct 29 13:29:38 but really, everyone seems to have a lot of hatred for motorola's inhouse OS so I guess this is probably a good thing? Oct 29 13:29:50 Stskeeps, pretty much what I was going for :) Oct 29 13:30:02 motorola phones are really awkward anyway :P Oct 29 13:30:41 * qwerty12_N800 *hates* moto's. cant even get uiq3 right Oct 29 13:31:11 whoever decided new electronics shouldn't have tactile feedback because that would make them look "uncool" needs to get kneecapped Oct 29 13:31:43 johnx: Inhouse os STAYS Oct 29 13:32:05 RST38h, so what was that 2/3 doing? Oct 29 13:32:06 johnx: They are keeping Android (smartphones), WinMobile (business) and their-own-crap (cheap phones) Oct 29 13:32:17 johnx: Apparently, Symbian and Linux Oct 29 13:32:30 I guess they don't want to compete with themselves on the low end Oct 29 13:32:38 Hrm Oct 29 13:32:41 That's what we need Oct 29 13:32:47 https://wiki.maemo.org/Virtual_memory Oct 29 13:32:50 Somebody write that up. Oct 29 13:33:04 wiki not answering. Oct 29 13:33:11 or bloody show Oct 29 13:33:13 slow Oct 29 13:33:15 johnx: They are desperate. Too many developers, too many projects Oct 29 13:33:22 johnx: Not enough return on each phone Oct 29 13:33:35 Stskeeps, it's always slow. Oct 29 13:33:49 looks like some other low-end phones in emerging markets will be running android (which I totally called) Oct 29 13:34:27 GeneralAntilles: idea for article/blog entry.. "The case for Maemo", why maemo should exist and what it can be and the qualities of the platform and so on Oct 29 13:34:30 :P Oct 29 13:35:50 (in the current market and such) Oct 29 13:36:32 Stskeeps, you want to do a guest column? Oct 29 13:37:06 GeneralAntilles: way too much in my head these days so i'm going step by step in trying to have something to base my assumptions/ideas on :P Oct 29 13:37:14 Or it also sounds like something Jaffa might do. ;) Oct 29 13:38:21 Good god the degausser in this old SGI Trinitron seems to get louder every year. Oct 29 13:40:12 johnx: Not sure about it - the required hw specs are a bit high afaik Oct 29 13:46:11 hi GeneralAntilles... are you going to add something like 'People + Information' or 'Life Stuff' to the category list? Oct 29 13:46:53 just saw the SGI degauss comment in the backlog Oct 29 13:47:53 lbt, well, it had been discussed a bit. Oct 29 13:48:07 I'd generally file "PIM stuff" into Office, myself. Oct 29 13:48:13 Jaffa? Oct 29 13:48:23 Agreed. Oct 29 13:48:27 Tim's just asked the same question. Oct 29 13:48:28 maybe s/office/productivity/ Oct 29 13:48:36 No Oct 29 13:48:43 johnx, well, trying to keep consistency with upstream. Oct 29 13:48:44 Or rather, I don't think so ;-) Oct 29 13:48:48 just a thought Oct 29 13:48:59 And if I'm not a drone? Oct 29 13:49:09 NO, JOHNX, YOU IDIOT!!!1 Oct 29 13:49:10 Tim asked if that was still on the table: http://wiki.maemo.org/Task:Package_categories#Defined_top-level_categories_.26_application-specific_subcategories - it is, of course, as the labels haven't been decided. Oct 29 13:49:11 say I'm a non-office worker? Oct 29 13:49:17 lbt, you're a drone. Don't disillusion yourself. :D Oct 29 13:49:26 not at home Oct 29 13:49:29 lbt: "Office" doesn't mean you work in an office. It's office supplies etc. Oct 29 13:49:34 well, SWMBO may not agree Oct 29 13:49:49 Ah, so a calendar is office supplies Oct 29 13:49:54 gotcha Oct 29 13:49:58 * lbt sees mud Oct 29 13:50:10 I guess IRC is office supplies to Oct 29 13:50:12 too Oct 29 13:50:21 Anyway, a) labels don't need to be decided yet - we're still defining the categories; b) I think "Productivity" as a label is even less useful than "Office" Oct 29 13:50:24 lbt: eh? Oct 29 13:50:24 I'll spew out a couple more random thoughts, feel free to shoot down: utilities/pim office/productivity/pim Oct 29 13:50:26 frankly freedesktop are wrong :) Oct 29 13:50:53 Jaffa: I'm suggesting that there is a category for humans Oct 29 13:50:58 lbt, well I buy calendars at office depot...sooo Oct 29 13:51:05 yeah, yeah :) Oct 29 13:51:06 ^^^^ my point Oct 29 13:51:17 I understand why - but it is wrong :) Oct 29 13:51:20 lbt: You install people through an application manager? Oct 29 13:51:25 Or are you trolling? Oct 29 13:51:26 I do Oct 29 13:51:32 no, I'm very serious. Oct 29 13:51:39 being light about it though Oct 29 13:51:40 Give an example of a sodding application, not some nebulous "oh, what about a people app" Oct 29 13:52:07 For me, pim would go in office. That is how I would arrange it, but that is a personal preference. Oct 29 13:52:14 http://pastebin.com/m596627ac Oct 29 13:52:14 email, IM, PIM, facebook (to play devil's advocate) Oct 29 13:52:49 I think 'Office' should be translated to "My Life" for a consumer device Oct 29 13:52:52 now they could fit in other places too, and in fact it *barely matters since people will figure it out in like 10 minutes at most then remember* Oct 29 13:53:07 johnx that's bad UI design Oct 29 13:53:10 admit it Oct 29 13:53:21 lbt, there is much worse UI design to fix, so let's work on that Oct 29 13:53:24 the iPhone doesn't have 'Office' Oct 29 13:53:30 and I've never seen an iPhone Oct 29 13:53:31 lbt: Office=My life - so sad( Oct 29 13:53:35 IM is user/network; facebook is a website - there are no facebook applications; a status updater could go in user/utilities; email and PIM fit in user/office in my world view Oct 29 13:53:56 I know - it's like when they let users have their own PC and shut down the mainframes Oct 29 13:54:00 facebook provides rss for updates Oct 29 13:54:02 lbt: "My Life"? That's a vague, 90s category with no usefulness. Why is a word processor "My Life"? Oct 29 13:54:10 it isn't Oct 29 13:54:15 glass: yes, so there's an RSS reader Oct 29 13:54:18 I carefully explained that Oct 29 13:54:32 it is actually "people I know about" Oct 29 13:54:36 and communications Oct 29 13:54:40 and planning Oct 29 13:54:57 not 'content' - which is where word processing comes in Oct 29 13:55:01 word processor is a office app, as in ms office suite, implanted in peoples mind Oct 29 13:55:05 My life as a wordprocessor sounds depressing Oct 29 13:55:07 lbt: So you're *not* suggesting that "Office" == "My Life for a consumer device"; you're advocating an *additional* "My Life" category which contains... photos of my son (he's my life), any application I need for anything I do for my life. Oct 29 13:55:22 sort of Oct 29 13:55:23 word processor is, to begin with, a word processor) Oct 29 13:55:27 but not content Oct 29 13:55:35 lbt: You can't categorise apps on whether they're 'communications' or 'content'. You define them based on a higher level taxonomy. Oct 29 13:55:36 I can write anything wherever I want Oct 29 13:55:37 Jaffa: Just rename Office to Orifice and that will cover both word processors and PIMs Oct 29 13:55:43 indeed Oct 29 13:55:46 lbt, anyways, as it has been said, these aren't necessarily the user facing names Oct 29 13:55:50 and the taxonomy is contact Oct 29 13:55:50 If you're suggesting that split, it'd need a whole new set of categories - not just one additional one Oct 29 13:55:55 contacts Oct 29 13:56:04 jaffa; Although I do unserstand that it may be overly general Oct 29 13:56:11 :) Oct 29 13:56:13 yes - the taxonomy isn't orthogonal as it is Oct 29 13:56:14 It's not Microsoft (hope I'll not be banned for this word xD) Office :) Oct 29 13:56:36 I am suggesting a category to do with "Me" Oct 29 13:56:46 Who said there has to be a complete taxonomy? Oct 29 13:56:50 planning stuff: calendar Oct 29 13:57:13 arranging stuff: comms (email, irc, voip, address book) Oct 29 13:57:18 lbt: That's fine. Then you need to suggest a whole new set of categories, because "me" doesn't fit in with ones structured around type of application; rather than relationship of application's use with user. Oct 29 13:57:20 Why not use statistical division principle: as soon as there is >10% of apps in a category that can be split off into a new one, make a new category Oct 29 13:57:37 RST38h, because that makes packaging a nightmare? Oct 29 13:57:55 I think categories should be named by action they do Oct 29 13:58:04 johnx: It doesn't: I do not suggest tocreate new categories on daily basis Oct 29 13:58:06 Jaffa: I agree - but #freedesktop has been dead so there is no interest Oct 29 13:58:17 wazd: As in "Work" and "Crash"? Oct 29 13:58:20 Like "Planning", "Writing","Counting","Chating" and so on Oct 29 13:58:23 I think this is important - hence the msgs Oct 29 13:58:23 RST38h, so what happens to existing apps? repackaging? Oct 29 13:58:42 well, we discussed tag based Oct 29 13:58:54 johnx: Well, once a year General bugs people about changing categories or it is done automatically in Extras Oct 29 13:58:57 so that allows the 'traditional' structure to exist alongside Oct 29 13:58:58 lbt: It wouldn't need to be anything to do with freedesktop. My suggestion was to base the categories on freedesktop. Your suggestion isn't. Add a new section to Task:Package_categories which is logical and self-consistent and it can be discussed. Oct 29 13:59:18 Jaffa: Freedesktop category list is somewhat muddy Oct 29 13:59:22 I was going to challenge freedesktop to update their categories Oct 29 13:59:30 * GeneralAntilles laughs maniacally. Oct 29 13:59:32 Jaffa: Unless there are compelling reasons to use it... Oct 29 13:59:33 indeed Oct 29 13:59:44 lbt: And the conclusion was it wasn't viable, because no-one'll code it. Oct 29 13:59:47 https://garage.maemo.org/plugins/scmsvn/viewcvs.php/midgard-data/snippets/karma_plugins/itt.php?root=maemo2midgard&view=log Oct 29 14:00:09 hehehe Oct 29 14:00:11 GeneralAntilles: Yes, we're talking about scale.. Oct 29 14:00:23 RST38h: perhaps it is; it's compelling because it works on environments which have much greater exposure, many more applications and a whole lot of usability testing behind them. Oct 29 14:00:23 I feel that for consumers/people/humans (ie not geeks) then a more 'me' centric area is good Oct 29 14:00:24 GeneralAntilles, heh...that means I actually have karma now :) Oct 29 14:00:27 GeneralAntilles: sqrt($thanks) * modifier seems reasonable. Oct 29 14:00:56 lbt: That's great! We don't have to copy freedesktop if it doesn't fit. Actually make a concrete suggestion apart from one more category, in a new section of the wiki page. Oct 29 14:00:57 Giving 8000 karma for 1000 thanks seems a bit much ;) Oct 29 14:01:06 Jaffa: I do not see how this makes the set of category names compelling though Oct 29 14:01:16 I wanted to chat - sorry you're in a bad mood Oct 29 14:01:21 Jaffa: it is bunch of strings, you know... Oct 29 14:01:32 lbt, I'll play devil's advocate :) Oct 29 14:01:38 lbt, what do you see as other categories? Oct 29 14:01:53 one sec Oct 29 14:02:16 dialing into a conference Oct 29 14:03:39 GeneralAntilles: think i'm most afraid of regarding the whole trying to make maemo better and reconstruct and make upstream etc better, is that it'll just result in endless bikeshed discussions Oct 29 14:03:50 johnx: I actually feel the coverage is pretty good Oct 29 14:04:13 and I wanted to see a 'Me' area to pull in the communication and planning apps Oct 29 14:04:16 lbt, so where's the line between me and office? or me and network? Oct 29 14:04:36 office is, in my mind, about creating and editing content Oct 29 14:04:46 no real overlap Oct 29 14:04:48 X-Fade, sooo, that'd give me 37 karma points for ~1400 thanks? Oct 29 14:04:56 except that outlook is an office app... Oct 29 14:05:01 GeneralAntilles: * modifier. Oct 29 14:05:15 Suggestions for the modifier? Oct 29 14:05:16 network, otoh, is very close to comms Oct 29 14:05:25 GeneralAntilles: 4? Oct 29 14:05:42 As a baseline, I am (by about 200 thanks at the time of this writing) the person with the most thanks on itT. Oct 29 14:05:43 but it also covers web, rss, wireshark Oct 29 14:05:48 and wifi etc Oct 29 14:05:51 That's about 1 years worth of accumulation. Oct 29 14:05:59 GeneralAntilles: That will at least give a reasonable amount? Oct 29 14:06:00 so I think of NW is semi-physical Oct 29 14:06:14 GeneralAntilles: Same for number of posts. Oct 29 14:06:17 make sense johnx? Oct 29 14:06:24 Thanks should be weighted much more heavily than posts. Oct 29 14:06:24 GeneralAntilles: That definately needs a sqrt. Oct 29 14:06:44 You can accumulate a lot of posts spewing mouth diarrhea Oct 29 14:06:45 lbt, so network as "interacting with objects" vs "interacting with people" Oct 29 14:06:52 OK - yes Oct 29 14:06:55 Thanks are other users affirming the value of your posts. Oct 29 14:07:07 GeneralAntilles: True. Oct 29 14:07:25 the area I propose covers applications managing information I have about people, including me and my friends and colleagues. It's probably the most frequently accessed menu for 'normal' people. Oct 29 14:07:34 I'll say it was a _lot_ of work accumulating that many thanks. ;) Oct 29 14:08:18 did you click the pastebin link? Oct 29 14:08:26 sorry, not yet Oct 29 14:08:29 * johnx clicks Oct 29 14:09:20 nb - that is supposed to be my thinking, not a solution Oct 29 14:09:54 so not really "me" so much as "personal and social" Oct 29 14:09:59 * GeneralAntilles flys apart trying to follow 3 conversations and cook. Oct 29 14:10:03 lbt: I *really* don't think you can add a 'me' category to the freedesktop ones at http://wiki.maemo.org/Task:Package_categories#Defined_top-level_categories_.26_application-specific_subcategories and have it have any form of internal consistency and avoid ambiguity and confusion. A whole new set of categories would be needed. Both developers and users should be clear on what goes into a section. More sections means more possibility of confusion, but they al Oct 29 14:10:04 yes, Oct 29 14:10:20 lbt: ...enough to ensure that not too many apps are in each section that they become unmanageable. Oct 29 14:10:53 Jaffa - sorry about the 'Me' / 'My Life' - don't read to much into them. That thought drove me to discuss this Oct 29 14:11:09 as johnx says "personal and social" Oct 29 14:11:25 I'm tending to agree with lbt here for the most part. I don't think there's much ambiguous overlap Oct 29 14:11:27 is equally valid (and, if you think about it, is also 'me') Oct 29 14:11:35 X-Fade, how much is one mailing list post worth? Oct 29 14:11:53 johnx :) Oct 29 14:11:55 GeneralAntilles: I think 1 orso. Oct 29 14:12:07 GeneralAntilles/X-Fade: the mailing lists are higher "quality", IMHO, than an ITT post. Oct 29 14:12:11 how much does an orso convert to? Oct 29 14:12:11 GeneralAntilles: We need to do that discussion some time later ;) Oct 29 14:12:16 :) Oct 29 14:12:23 Let's focus on categories now. Oct 29 14:12:37 lbt/johnx: So "Personal & Social" would encompass what example applications? Oct 29 14:12:37 Jaffa, but what about an itT Thank? Oct 29 14:12:42 I really like to have a plan before the end of the month ;) Oct 29 14:12:47 lbt, what about having it under utilities though? Oct 29 14:12:49 see pastebin Oct 29 14:13:13 they are 'bitty' things - clock Oct 29 14:13:18 GeneralAntilles: A post + 2 thanks == 1 mailing list post. A post + 5 thanks ~= 2 mailing list posts? Oct 29 14:13:20 'teabag timer' Oct 29 14:13:37 lbt, utilities you mean? Oct 29 14:13:40 indeed Oct 29 14:13:44 X-Fade, I don't have a feeling for a good baseline for karma counts Oct 29 14:13:50 that is the traditional stuff found in there Oct 29 14:13:52 what about utilities/personal and utilities/social though? Oct 29 14:13:55 and as the weighting seems to be in flux anyway. . . . Oct 29 14:14:04 a utility or tool for handling personal info Oct 29 14:14:05 sqrt(karma) * 4 works for me for now. Oct 29 14:14:06 as I said - one of the most clicked menus Oct 29 14:14:11 so should be top level Oct 29 14:14:19 I think we should come back to the discussion later and discuss every piece of karma as a whole Oct 29 14:14:34 lbt: we're talking about package management primarily. And one menu with everything in isn't very useful. Oct 29 14:14:35 Because you really can't weight an individual piece without relating it to other pieces. Oct 29 14:14:36 I feel for a device like the NIT Oct 29 14:14:45 it isn't everything Oct 29 14:15:00 lbt: Your pastebin seems also out of date given it talks about lots of different categories AFAICT when now there's a suggestion of a "Personal & Social" single category. Oct 29 14:15:20 Jaffa, well it's 5 minutes out of date Oct 29 14:15:25 no, it talks about ideas :) Oct 29 14:15:39 Indeed. So, now I'm trying to take it forward constructively. Oct 29 14:15:50 it isn't a proposal - I wanted to float and discuss Oct 29 14:16:05 the philosophy is clear to me Oct 29 14:16:12 If a "Personal & Social" category doesn't overcomplicate the base on top of freedesktop, what'd go in it? I'm not *challenging* you, I'm trying to draw out something concrete. Oct 29 14:16:28 Philosophy doesn't help package maintainers, i18n translaters or users too much ;-) Oct 29 14:16:41 Jaffa, PIM, IM, email, Oct 29 14:16:49 no, it helps determine decision rules though Oct 29 14:16:57 yes, + calendar Oct 29 14:17:16 the big 'personal and social' Oct 29 14:17:17 johnx: So if IM & email - why not RSS reader or web browser? Oct 29 14:17:22 email is network. . . . Oct 29 14:17:27 Jaffa, the theme is human interaction Oct 29 14:17:27 I considered them Oct 29 14:17:35 yes Oct 29 14:17:47 So IRC client, as well. Oct 29 14:17:51 right Oct 29 14:18:02 falls under IM to me :) Oct 29 14:18:03 which should share 'contacts' Oct 29 14:18:10 "Personal & Social" mostly seems to serve to overlap other categories Oct 29 14:18:13 Which is bad. Oct 29 14:18:13 * Jaffa primarily uses his web browser for dealing with JIRA (people & work) or email (GMail). Oct 29 14:18:18 * lcuk thinks this is why freedesktop never got a strict definition ;) Oct 29 14:18:32 The category delineations should be as clear-cut as possible. Oct 29 14:18:33 * Jaffa uses his RSS reader to read stuff *people* have written & published. Oct 29 14:18:36 Jaffa - they are online tools Oct 29 14:19:00 I'd "allow" hyperlinks in personal and social Oct 29 14:19:01 what happens to packages that encapsulate multiple categroies? Oct 29 14:19:04 So is an email client, an IRC client, a Facebook status updater Oct 29 14:19:06 eg? Oct 29 14:19:08 Jaffa: Yes, but so does your email client. Oct 29 14:19:11 the key word in "stuff people have written" is "stuff" Oct 29 14:19:17 lbt: You might, but that doesn't make sense Oct 29 14:19:32 X-Fade: Indeed. This is why I'm yet to be convinced about "Personal & Social" not overlapping. Oct 29 14:19:36 johnx: "stuff" relates to other products of human life cycles as well Oct 29 14:19:41 Jaffa: I know - hyperlinks don't live in the main menu Oct 29 14:19:49 lbt: Or the Application Manager. Oct 29 14:19:53 should thay? Oct 29 14:19:56 So it's a non sequiter Oct 29 14:20:07 sorry, confused now Oct 29 14:20:13 johnx: can we have "shit" category, really? Oct 29 14:20:29 RST38h, only if there are more than 10% of apps that deal with shit Oct 29 14:20:29 RST38h, that'd be "Other" Oct 29 14:20:36 we have - the translation is 'utilities' Oct 29 14:21:19 lbt, the reality is that "My Life/Me/Personal & Social" overlaps rather uselessly with other categories. Oct 29 14:21:34 What is the goal here? To add some life to the sterility of Office? Oct 29 14:21:35 lbt: This is a discussion in identifying the categorisation of packages in the Application Manager. There is a thought that these *may* also then lead into the top-level menu (so a user accesses the application at run time through the same category they found it in the App Manager); but that's a /different/ discussion. Oct 29 14:21:38 johnx: Ohm don't you worry... Oct 29 14:21:39 GeneralAntilles: the reverse Oct 29 14:21:45 johnx: there is plenty Oct 29 14:21:45 GeneralAntilles, I would say it pulls things together and lightens up other categories Oct 29 14:22:00 General: Actually, "other" != "shit" Oct 29 14:22:02 Jaffa: no, I think they should be related Oct 29 14:22:05 strongly Oct 29 14:22:18 General: because you may have lots of high quality specialized apps Oct 29 14:22:22 lbt, well, that's not this discussion. let's stay focused Oct 29 14:22:29 Indeed, and I largely agree. *HOwever*, the current focus is the packages. Oct 29 14:22:50 I use the same logic for both so I don't mind Oct 29 14:23:03 the key part of im and email is interacting with people, not that it happens to use a network to do it Oct 29 14:23:09 johnx yes Oct 29 14:23:10 Jaffa: did you see this? http://jaaksi.blogspot.com/2008/10/few-thoughs-on-openness.html Oct 29 14:23:14 requirement, not solution Oct 29 14:23:23 goal thinking Oct 29 14:23:34 just like the key part in contacts is that it's info about people. if that info was on a network vs on local storage should that affect where you find it? Oct 29 14:23:45 * lcuk thinks this whole discussion has taken place many many times: the trove software map from sourceforge is carefully considered and breaksup software quite nicely Oct 29 14:23:59 X-Fade: no, I missed it. Oct 29 14:24:27 Yeah, it is on the planet. But showed up somewhere in between. Oct 29 14:24:32 Bah Oct 29 14:24:36 X-Fade: ironically, he is raising the same issue I raised here on few occassions Oct 29 14:24:56 X-Fade: "open sourced" does not mean "being worked on" =( Oct 29 14:25:43 lbt: Sorry, you've changed your argument again I think. If it's goal seeking then the rest of the categories don't make sense in that philosophy. If it's just to differentiate some category of apps which a user wouldn't expect to find in one of the existing categories, that's a different thin. Oct 29 14:25:50 * Stskeeps -thinks- he would be contributing to maemo if it was open from the start.. not sure though Oct 29 14:25:52 would it be as fun then? :P Oct 29 14:26:17 lcuk: so, in the trove where do I look for 'contact manager'? It's a database right? It lives on my desktop? I use it for VOIP? To contact my Enterprise? Using a Network? Oct 29 14:26:17 than one where you don't have to go through loops and hoops and regulations and such Oct 29 14:26:44 https://garage.maemo.org/softwaremap/trove_list.php?form_cat=18 Oct 29 14:26:44 lbt: But the Contact Manager is a) not an external package; b) an integral part of the system. Oct 29 14:26:52 Jaffa: what is the consistent and orthogonal taxonomy being used? Oct 29 14:27:03 there isn't one. Oct 29 14:27:08 Jaffa, fine, what about gpe-contacts? Oct 29 14:28:00 I am pointing out that the thinking one uses as a developer is not what you consider as a user Oct 29 14:28:10 lbtlbt, communication Oct 29 14:28:27 lcuk: yes, I agree. Oct 29 14:28:59 lcuk: there isn't a communication category in the current "new" category set Oct 29 14:29:00 but the current suggestion appears to be 'Office' Oct 29 14:29:05 johnx: a good suggestion. Oct 29 14:29:11 lbt: No, that was for calendar. Oct 29 14:29:21 Oh Oct 29 14:29:29 So, finally we get to a problematic application. Oct 29 14:29:35 personally i would prefer a search box - i have a keyboard and the skills to type "contact" Oct 29 14:29:44 I have an N800 Oct 29 14:29:47 lcuk: App Manager's got one (although the UI sucks) Oct 29 14:30:00 really? i never found it heh Oct 29 14:30:03 its THAT Bad Oct 29 14:30:10 johnx: I suspect gpe-contact should go in user/utilities (i.e. under "Accessories") Oct 29 14:30:19 lcuk: Look at the bar on the bottom ;) Oct 29 14:30:52 what application is of no utility? Oct 29 14:30:54 Jaffa, and should calendars go under office? Oct 29 14:30:55 heh X-Fade im used to filters at the top of lists not buttons that pop open new windows ;) Oct 29 14:31:02 ie they all go in 'utilities' Oct 29 14:31:04 johnx: I think so. Oct 29 14:31:07 i tried typing to move the list down as well which didnt work Oct 29 14:31:18 lbt: User sees "Accessories" then Oct 29 14:31:25 lcuk: Well to quote Jaffa: "although the UI sucks" :) Oct 29 14:31:26 same arg Oct 29 14:31:39 I think splitting up PIM applications is a bad idea since people have clear ideas of what a PIM suite should include Oct 29 14:31:41 all apps are accessories Oct 29 14:31:43 yeah i know Oct 29 14:31:45 indeed Oct 29 14:31:57 johnx: I don't think they do (a point qgil made a while ago). Oct 29 14:32:23 which is why I said words that lead to "personal and social" Oct 29 14:32:28 not 'PIM' Oct 29 14:32:44 *IF* we had P&S Oct 29 14:32:51 where would you look for calendar? Oct 29 14:32:53 contacts? Oct 29 14:33:42 x-fade, no matter what categories things end up in, is there a way to find out (a) how many apps are in each category, and (b) how frequently apps within it are downloaded? a UI based around that would help people a lot Oct 29 14:34:26 would be interesting if the h-a-m could display that metadata Oct 29 14:34:35 lcuk: Well, all that data is available. It is just a matter of how to get that data in AM and how to display it. Oct 29 14:34:50 excellent! thats a real decent thing Oct 29 14:34:53 Rating should also be cool. Oct 29 14:34:54 * lcuk gets to work on a tagcloud Oct 29 14:35:08 x-fade, we have that from maemo.org/download Oct 29 14:35:20 aren't they linked? Oct 29 14:35:34 lcuk: yes, but I want rating inside AM :) Oct 29 14:35:40 lcuk: My ideal UI for the App Manager would show the number of apps in a category before you opened it. Oct 29 14:35:56 (see my mockups) Oct 29 14:35:58 Fresh/new applications, right there in AM. Oct 29 14:36:00 Well, s/ideal/immediately practicable and achievable with some weekend hacking/ Oct 29 14:36:02 if you don't mind - why? Oct 29 14:36:04 yes, find a way to grab a digest of package,category,rating downloaded with the update lists Oct 29 14:36:06 Jaffa: stick it on the key next to the name Oct 29 14:36:08 Awaw, I have great AM UI designs Oct 29 14:36:09 and bobs your uncle Oct 29 14:36:21 But they are on my god damn broken PC( Oct 29 14:36:41 jaffa - yes and that same number of apps can be used to display as a cloud Oct 29 14:36:44 lardman: Was thinking of using the same GtkTreeView as the package info itself, and use the 'Size' column. Then will have the same code between package & sub-category list as top-level category list. Oct 29 14:36:58 lcuk: indeed. I can't be arsed to develop my own tag cloud any time soon :) Oct 29 14:36:59 lbt: no real reason, just to have a feeling of what's going to present itself (for me anyway) Oct 29 14:37:08 heh jaffa Oct 29 14:37:23 what's a tag cloud? Oct 29 14:37:32 * lcuk needs to parse apt-cache's output... hmmm Oct 29 14:37:35 anyway, got to pay attention now - back later. I was trying to be positive about this and make it better :) I think P&S or similar would be good for users... l8r Oct 29 14:37:39 that thing on maemo.org/downloads -> different size depending on # of matches? Oct 29 14:37:49 lardman: basically, yes Oct 29 14:37:51 lardman: For example. Oct 29 14:38:06 they are annoying to use, nice to see though Oct 29 14:38:07 Which, of course, makes small categories hard to get to. Oct 29 14:38:12 yes Oct 29 14:38:31 or https://garage.maemo.org/softwaremap/trove_cloud.php Oct 29 14:38:34 The initial "Wow" factor can't be undervalued, though. Oct 29 14:38:44 depending upon minimum size agreed gen Oct 29 14:38:46 Cloud is totally useless Oct 29 14:38:53 Absolutely useless Oct 29 14:38:57 but if minimum and maximum are set carefully its informative (and use color) Oct 29 14:38:59 wazd: "totally" and "absolutely" are a bit wrong Oct 29 14:39:12 on a touchdisplay its important Oct 29 14:39:18 lcuk++ Oct 29 14:39:30 most often used things are big and easy to reach :) Oct 29 14:39:40 Ari can't even spell "maemo" correctly. Oct 29 14:39:44 lcuk: Something like this would be nice: http://www.wordle.net/ Oct 29 14:40:10 Jaffa: does anyone cares how much software there is in category?) Oct 29 14:40:38 basically yes x-fade :) (liqbase does it with sketches for now, ill see about a generic gtk label version) Oct 29 14:40:50 wazd, I do. Oct 29 14:40:53 wazd: not really, but it's sort of interesting Oct 29 14:40:56 wazd: So your comment is "showing how many apps are in a category is useless"; rather than tag clouds. Oct 29 14:41:01 Mostly to know whether to click on it. Oct 29 14:41:10 Is this any good? : http://www.amazon.co.uk/Foundations-Development-Experts-Voice-Source/dp/1590597931/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1225291118&sr=1-1 Oct 29 14:41:14 If there's one app in a category, and I'm browsing around to install some new stuff, I'll go to the place with more in Oct 29 14:41:21 Jaffa: true) And tag clouds too :) Oct 29 14:41:22 wazd, not for the categories so much, but for the rated and downloaded stats 100% Oct 29 14:41:48 lcuk: I think it's kind of "not fair" Oct 29 14:41:52 lcuk: that's hard, what will the metric be? mean/median/max? Oct 29 14:42:00 new software will be tiny Oct 29 14:42:15 Canola will cover 200% of the screen xD Oct 29 14:42:28 wazd, from small seeds comes great things :) Oct 29 14:42:29 I can't stand it myself Oct 29 14:42:37 its "popular" though Oct 29 14:42:51 so is Labour Oct 29 14:42:56 well was Oct 29 14:43:07 and just a different way to look at it - if theres 5 different views available for the same app manager what does it matter Oct 29 14:43:23 some people can choose clouds, others lists others trees Oct 29 14:43:31 true, if it's something someone really wants then they can code it up and see if it's popular too Oct 29 14:43:34 lcuk: I think straight list with abillity to sort by popularity/freshness/whatever will be the best Oct 29 14:43:43 lcuk: As long as they get coded :) Oct 29 14:43:45 wazd, see previous comment Oct 29 14:43:50 anyone any thoughts on GTK+ books? Oct 29 14:43:54 ah) Oct 29 14:44:09 we are as a community discussing this - each of us has ideas and some of us are coders, if we mock things up we can see what works Oct 29 14:44:44 lcuk: absolutely :) Oct 29 14:45:09 * GeneralAntilles explodes. Oct 29 14:45:14 Too much rice and fried chicken. Oct 29 14:45:58 * RST38h is going to suggest something Oct 29 14:46:01 General: and for desert, new Maemo Theme :D Oct 29 14:46:12 * RST38h puts his pointy hat with little bells on Oct 29 14:46:12 * GeneralAntilles might die. Oct 29 14:46:24 General: Why wait for the Collider? Oct 29 14:46:32 fms's software and not fms's software? Oct 29 14:46:46 lardman: http://www.gtkbook.com/home.php seems nice Oct 29 14:47:25 Long while ago, there was a MAME shell that let you sort games by year, make, popularity, board type, category, etc etc Oct 29 14:47:42 How about looking at it and using the same kind of GUI? Oct 29 14:47:56 melmoth: cool, that's the same as the one on Amazon Oct 29 14:48:09 Of course Maemo categories will be different and some stuff we do not really need, but the whole shell app was very handy Oct 29 14:49:29 That looks like a good book Oct 29 14:50:03 lardman: $31.99 or 33 quid! Oct 29 14:50:32 amazon said £13 for second hand, but it's from the US, so may take a year or so to arrive Oct 29 14:50:38 ~£25 for a new one from the UK Oct 29 14:51:11 I think its 300 pages thick and there are only two words on each page) Oct 29 14:51:16 You can't :) Oct 29 14:51:42 good for self defense Oct 29 14:51:58 keep it in my brest pocket to deflect bullets Oct 29 14:52:06 too heavy Oct 29 14:52:20 I think it's rather offensive weapon :D Oct 29 14:53:08 what, GTK+ ;) Oct 29 14:53:24 lardman: 15 quid for a new one from the US. Not sure you can add marketplace stuff to your wishlist Oct 29 14:53:28 Long time till Christmas, too Oct 29 14:53:44 lbt, (and anyone else interested), I put up my thoughts for a "personal and social" section on the talk page of the package categories wiki: http://wiki.maemo.org/Talk:Task:Package_categories Oct 29 14:53:49 yeah, stuff from the US takes ages to arrive though Oct 29 14:53:59 I'd rather pay an extra tenner and have it this week Oct 29 14:54:34 johnx, that doesn't make an overwhelming amount of sense. Oct 29 14:54:41 email could just as easily fit in network Oct 29 14:54:53 and GPE I'd, personally, be more inclined to stick in Office. Oct 29 14:55:21 johnx: you lose points for not having the care to add it alpabetically ordered ;-) Oct 29 14:55:22 GeneralAntilles, it's about the primary purpose of the app Oct 29 14:55:39 Jaffa, I have an agenda to push! (fixing it now) Oct 29 14:55:52 * GeneralAntilles doesn't like it. Oct 29 14:56:55 ok, so what's the most important thing about a contacts app? that you might use it at your office? that it might be networked? or that it keeps people's names? Oct 29 14:57:10 lardman: haev you considered the older book (wich is available for free in hmtl, thus, readable in the tablet too ) http://developer.gnome.org/doc/GGAD/ Oct 29 14:57:47 im gonna vanish again, bbl guys Oct 29 14:58:05 Contact app is the only one I've heard which compellingly doesn't fit into one of the other categories; but it's so "simple" from a user point of view, I can live with it in "user/utilities" - because a new category for "all contact apps" doesn't seem sensible ;-) Oct 29 14:58:41 melmoth: too much gnome, not much content afaict Oct 29 14:58:41 melmoth: the problem with learning something from an older book is that the concepts aren't the hard things, it's knowing what's available to you - and that changes every release: so newer == better. Oct 29 14:59:10 then again, perhaps I should just find a decent set of docs on the web and use those Oct 29 14:59:40 lardman: If you find some, let me know. Oct 29 14:59:44 if a user is looking for a contacts app, where are they likely to look? What makes sense from someone who isn't thinking about this from our perspective? Oct 29 14:59:50 Jaffa: yeah :( Oct 29 15:02:13 And this collection of "apps to help you manage your own information and information about other people" is one of the most popular uses of the tablet Oct 29 15:02:38 Yes, it could be put with the rest of the clutter in utilties, but that's a "catch all" Oct 29 15:02:38 i loathe the "extras" category in hildon Oct 29 15:02:38 :P Oct 29 15:02:54 GeneralAntilles: I'd look for SMTP in network, I'd look for "send an email to Susan to ask about gossip" in Personal and Social .... what kind of role are you playing? Oct 29 15:03:20 We're talking about packages not "doing things". Oct 29 15:03:43 The point is not to say "x could fit in category y" but to find a category where it fits best Oct 29 15:03:44 Oh, so when Susan wants to install email she looks in 'Network'? Oct 29 15:04:03 I really, _really_ hate these sorts of discussions. Oct 29 15:04:05 * GeneralAntilles checks out. Oct 29 15:04:14 lardman: decent recent doc==devhelp Oct 29 15:04:29 me too - they are hard to do when not face-2-face Oct 29 15:04:29 but it s more of a reference thingy than a howto Oct 29 15:05:00 lbt, no, there's never a "right" answer and everybody has a different opinion of how it should be done. Oct 29 15:05:28 and I understand your argument. Oct 29 15:05:36 GeneralAntilles, if you're worried about hurting feelings, don't. I'm honestly interested in different ideas, but I think this is important because it is one things all new users will run into Oct 29 15:05:42 I feel I could act as your proxy Oct 29 15:05:55 johnx, me? Worried about hurting feelings? You're kidding, right? Oct 29 15:05:58 I don't feel I've done my job to let you see my point of vieew Oct 29 15:05:58 :P Oct 29 15:06:14 so I don't think you could argue as my advocate Oct 29 15:07:12 * wazd really hates Maemo themes( Oct 29 15:07:40 They are so fricking complicated( Oct 29 15:07:43 melmoth: ah, I forgot that one Oct 29 15:07:56 Anyways, the proposal is up on the talk page, if anyone has questions, ask me or lbt. If you want to shoot it down that's fine. I'd be willing to compromise on at least collecting PIM under utilities/personal if for some reason *everything* with network capabilities has to be under network Oct 29 15:10:12 *crickets* Oct 29 15:12:41 We're avoiding subcategories for the time being. Oct 29 15:12:48 booo! ;) Oct 29 15:13:33 fair enough Oct 29 15:13:34 Hi Oct 29 15:13:42 hello :) Oct 29 15:13:52 has anyone used osso-addressbook with Qt? Oct 29 15:14:03 I mean the lib-version of the addressbook Oct 29 15:14:08 johnx or lbt, can you poke at the discussion on -developers at least? Oct 29 15:14:29 * RST38h sadly observes INTC stock Oct 29 15:14:45 On the other hand, AMD is $2+ :) Oct 29 15:14:47 GeneralAntilles, alright Oct 29 15:15:02 Why sadly? Oct 29 15:15:03 I'm just wondering that can the addressbook -library be used without the main loop (because Qt does not have one) Oct 29 15:15:27 Unless you're planning to retire soon, you want stocks to be cheap. Oct 29 15:17:18 derf: not planning to retire, not planning to buy more Oct 29 15:18:03 Well, if you're not buying or selling, it doesn't matter what the price is. Oct 29 15:19:11 price doesn't matter, the delta does though Oct 29 15:19:33 derf: thinks. =) Oct 29 15:19:36 think Oct 29 15:21:48 GeneralAntilles: I did - but I got zarro response. So I prodded here too :) Oct 29 15:22:08 lardman: What matters is value, not price. Oct 29 15:22:15 Price is what you pay. Value is what you get. Oct 29 15:22:47 value of a share you mean? Or value of the share transaction (which is the delta effectively)? Oct 29 15:22:55 The value of the business. Oct 29 15:23:07 he means the long span value of the company Oct 29 15:23:26 the intrinsic value of a share should be reflected in its price, but as you can't cash in your shares and take computers for them, that is meaningless Oct 29 15:23:42 assuming it's a computer company we;re talking about Oct 29 15:23:51 lardman: Over the long term, value is reflected in price. Oct 29 15:23:57 Over the short term, it is often not. Oct 29 15:24:13 given how inflated markets are anyway, I am not sure about that :) Oct 29 15:24:16 yes, but value is of no interest really, it's the change in the price of the shares that matters Oct 29 15:24:19 Just because the price is much lower than it was a month ago doesn't mean the business is much less valuable. Oct 29 15:24:35 derf: no, but the shares are less valuable Oct 29 15:24:51 Not in the long term. Oct 29 15:25:13 true, but again, that really doesn't matter; it;'s the change over time that matters Oct 29 15:25:40 so if we talk about value of a company, it's the company's value (reflected in the change in share price) that is of interest Oct 29 15:26:00 unless you do it for voting rights of course Oct 29 15:26:16 I'm trying to tell you, the company's value is very often _not_ acccurately reflected in the share price in the short term. Oct 29 15:26:28 yes Oct 29 15:26:39 However, it will be in the long term. Oct 29 15:27:02 it is the change in the value of the company (aka share price) that is important Oct 29 15:27:22 Value is not aka share price. Oct 29 15:27:33 why not? Oct 29 15:27:47 f(value,risk ) Oct 29 15:27:52 Because the company makes the same amount of money regardless of what its share price is. Oct 29 15:28:02 Lots of stocks nowadays throughout the world, I guess you could buy, sell off the contracts, sell off the assets and go into plus. Oct 29 15:28:19 lbt, now that we've had a discussion and have some more concrete examples and ideas. Oct 29 15:28:36 lbt, your previous email was a bit too nebulous. Oct 29 15:36:40 hola Oct 29 15:43:52 zap: btw, had any luck with openstreetmaps? Oct 29 15:45:02 lcuk, GeneralAntilles: how does one produce an html page for a Garage project? Oct 29 15:45:06 just stick it somewhere? Oct 29 15:45:14 /www in svn Oct 29 15:45:44 ok, cool Oct 29 15:45:45 thanks Oct 29 15:46:02 There is an on commit hook for that in svn. Use the www dir indeed. Oct 29 15:47:01 Just thought I should perhaps add some blurb to the projects I'm involved with, rather than blogging about them :p Oct 29 15:51:40 bbl Oct 29 15:54:34 Ok, I was the last person on the planet that haven't caught infinite loop tablet rebooting Oct 29 15:54:43 Now it is Oct 29 15:56:37 You have been naughty, have you? Oct 29 15:56:48 Was it boot menu? Or debian? Or a custom kernel? Oct 29 15:57:28 Wouldn't be bootmenu Oct 29 15:57:35 Nor Debian, really. Oct 29 15:57:49 Custom kernel, perhaps, but not any of the usual binary-providing suspects. Oct 29 15:57:53 should be the kernel then Oct 29 15:58:05 If he compiled his own dodgy kernel, maybe. Oct 29 15:59:53 I had simple firmware) Oct 29 16:00:10 Applied new Theme and it crashed into loop Oct 29 16:00:28 hey hey Oct 29 16:00:35 hey there Oct 29 16:00:41 andre___: Ping? Oct 29 16:00:54 Anyone know if there's a Maemo "how to report a bug" guide? Oct 29 16:01:16 OMG, it killed Olmsteds n810 too! Oct 29 16:01:28 Found! https://bugs.maemo.org/page.cgi?id=bug-writing.html Oct 29 16:01:34 I've invented Killer Theme! Oct 29 16:02:08 dneary, a general one? I think there's only https://bugs.maemo.org/page.cgi?id=bug-writing.html Oct 29 16:02:25 KILL KILL DESTROY Oct 29 16:02:26 but that's what we normally use when a report is vague or very incomplete... Oct 29 16:02:33 moo, qwerty I am out Oct 29 16:02:43 heh, hi RST38h Oct 29 16:02:46 andre___: Found it Oct 29 16:02:54 wazd: which theme are you talking about? Oct 29 16:03:02 Titan Oct 29 16:03:11 andre___: Second question: is there an RSS feed of reported bugs? Oct 29 16:03:14 i'm too slow against dneary with his superpowers... :'( ;-) Oct 29 16:03:29 andre___: I had to come here to find it ;) Oct 29 16:04:07 Seems like Theme Maker made me a surprise for release Oct 29 16:04:10 dneary, not that I know of, but I can tell you how to generate a "recently filed" search Oct 29 16:04:12 wazd: I cant find it in garage Oct 29 16:04:15 Or you should just subscribe to bugmail. Oct 29 16:04:19 GeneralAntilles: Please do! Oct 29 16:04:24 ciro1: It's not released yet Oct 29 16:04:43 dneary, i don't think RSS for bugzilla exists. at least not in our version Oct 29 16:05:19 oh, ok :) thank you Oct 29 16:05:50 dneary, ah well - you can have an RSS feed for queries it seems Oct 29 16:05:56 dneary, change the number of days to whatever you prefer: http://tinyurl.com/6eovtl Oct 29 16:06:42 yupp Oct 29 16:06:49 ciro1: I was trying to release it, made a package and it killed my device) Oct 29 16:06:52 Bugmail would probably be best, though. Oct 29 16:08:11 wazd: I would love to give it a look Oct 29 16:08:15 GeneralAntilles: do you feel like telling Tim ("Needing help with dead unit" mail in devel-list) his code should be his mac address ? Oct 29 16:08:15 https://bugs.maemo.org/buglist.cgi?bug_file_loc\x3d\x26bug_file_loc_type\x3dallwordssubstr\x26bug_id\x3d\x26bug_status\x3dNEW\x26bug_status\x3dASSIGNED\x26bug_status\x3dREOPENED\x26bugidtype\x3dinclude\x26chfield\x3d%5BBug%20creation%5D\x26chfieldfrom\x3d1m\x26chfieldto\x3dNow\x26chfieldvalue\x3d\x26email1\x3d\x26email2\x3d\x26emailassigned_to1\x3d1\x26emailassigned_to2\x3d1\x26emailcc2\x3d1\x26emailqa_contact2\x3d1\x26emailreporter2\x3d1\x26emai Oct 29 16:08:16 ltype1\x3dsubstring\x26emailtype2\x3dsubstring\x26field-1-0-0\x3dbug_status\x26field0-0-0\x3dnoop\x26keywords\x3d\x26keywords_type\x3dallwords\x26long_desc\x3d\x26long_desc_type\x3dsubstring\x26query_format\x3dadvanced\x26remaction\x3d\x26short_desc\x3d\x26short_desc_type\x3dallwordssubstr\x26status_whiteboard\x3d\x26status_whiteboard_type\x3dallwordssubstr\x26type-1-0-0\x3danyexact\x26type0-0-0\x3dnoop\x26value-1-0-0\x3dNEW%2CASSIGNED%2CREOPENED Oct 29 16:08:16 \x26value0-0-0\x3d\x26votes\x3d\x26title\x3dBug%20List\x26ctype\x3datom Oct 29 16:08:19 Ooops! Oct 29 16:08:20 woah Oct 29 16:08:21 i just dont get how it could be wrong Oct 29 16:08:31 They are here! Oct 29 16:08:38 Evacuate!!11 Oct 29 16:09:05 heh...did that the other day :) Oct 29 16:09:17 wazd, if I can beta test your theme, I can attempt to find out why it's tha killa theme :P *grin* Oct 29 16:10:02 Well, it worked well, just bad package I suppose Oct 29 16:10:02 johnx: yours were slightly more scary though ;) Oct 29 16:10:20 I'll release it in 20 minutes) Oct 29 16:10:34 dneary: you know, most of those vars are blank and could have been trimmed Oct 29 16:10:36 Thanks :). I need a dark[er] theme :) Oct 29 16:10:40 even without a shorter URL service :-p Oct 29 16:10:42 When I'll have a device to test on Oct 29 16:11:10 personally when I write searches, I rewrite the URL to strip blanks before sending it back to the user. Oct 29 16:11:15 just to be thoughtful :-p Oct 29 16:11:35 nemo, know of a script to sanitize bugzilla search URLs? Oct 29 16:11:49 can you remind me where I can get flasher for windows?) Oct 29 16:11:56 Nokia flashing utility Oct 29 16:12:02 ~flashing Oct 29 16:12:03 methinks flashing is http://wiki.maemo.org/Updating_the_tablet_firmware Oct 29 16:13:08 I'll be needing a 36-5 image soon :/. Guess I'll use Harrowed's method with the windows flasher to save me an image Oct 29 16:13:31 I don't get why they can put the damn FIASCO image on the server. Oct 29 16:13:37 GeneralAntilles: I guess I could write one Oct 29 16:13:42 GeneralAntilles: would be a very short script Oct 29 16:13:46 bookmarklet, more like Oct 29 16:13:47 hm Oct 29 16:13:48 nemo, that'd pretty very nice. Oct 29 16:13:49 you know... Oct 29 16:13:50 why not Oct 29 16:13:56 * nemo writes one Oct 29 16:14:00 I'm bored of trimming them by hand. Oct 29 16:14:21 oh. oops emergency Oct 29 16:14:26 will take a moment Oct 29 16:14:45 Take your time, I have no end of searches to paste. :) Oct 29 16:14:46 nemo: Yup Oct 29 16:15:04 ttfn! Oct 29 16:16:58 nick penguinbait Oct 29 16:17:12 whoops Oct 29 16:18:10 It says I have wrong time set on my PC Oct 29 16:18:19 me too Oct 29 16:18:36 What the hell is going on( Oct 29 16:18:37 I haven't been able to reflash since Sunday Oct 29 16:18:58 How the hell should I reanimate my tablet?( Oct 29 16:19:09 same as the guy who posted on devel- Oct 29 16:19:10 I keep resetting my time on the PC, but no luck Oct 29 16:19:14 wazd: use a linux flasher ? Oct 29 16:19:33 I should have Linux firstly) Oct 29 16:19:34 Will somebody post a blocker bug on bugzilla, please? Oct 29 16:19:35 I use windows hosted linux for app dev, so usb is difficult Oct 29 16:20:01 I'll post the bug Oct 29 16:20:12 I think thats because of winter time switch Oct 29 16:20:23 sounds like it... It occured this sunday Oct 29 16:20:32 My suspicion exactly - in NA we're still on daylight saving Oct 29 16:20:37 But why the hell does flasher needs my time?! Oct 29 16:20:38 wazd, live cd :D. actually, it would be cool if someone made a tiny tiny linux live cd that has the sole purpose of flashing a image from a usb stick Oct 29 16:20:53 I haven't got CD-ROM either xD Oct 29 16:24:45 GeneralA - is this a maemo website bug, or maemo software? Oct 29 16:28:06 Maemo Software -> Flasher: Windows Oct 29 16:28:13 wazd: timezone/daylight savings stuff maybe? Oct 29 16:28:25 already changes Oct 29 16:28:31 changed*\ Oct 29 16:28:36 same crap Oct 29 16:29:01 I mean, why the hell updater needs my time? Oct 29 16:29:26 Who knows Oct 29 16:29:35 Why not my desktop wallpaper or minesweeper record time? Oct 29 16:29:41 There Oct 29 16:29:43 oops Oct 29 16:29:57 That was the start of a reply that was not meant to be :) Oct 29 16:31:28 icebattle, make sure it's blocker. Oct 29 16:31:40 try putting your clock ahead or behind one hour, just for fun Oct 29 16:31:43 Will do. Oct 29 16:31:55 I'm working on a theory... Oct 29 16:31:57 Hah Oct 29 16:32:05 Olmsted is a Pure Genius Oct 29 16:32:20 To flash just disconnect PC from the internet Oct 29 16:32:26 ha-ha( Oct 29 16:32:31 well, there's that too Oct 29 16:32:59 but what if you want to flash straight to 36-5? :) Oct 29 16:33:40 bug has been reported. Thanks, GA Oct 29 16:35:50 yay Oct 29 16:35:59 Tablet's back Oct 29 16:36:56 That quick! Oct 29 16:37:02 Seeing as how more than a few people have complained, I'm going to confirm the bug without first-hand experience. Oct 29 16:37:34 I'm getting the same error and my time & timezone is set correctly Oct 29 16:38:02 I tried disconnecting, but no luck Oct 29 16:38:50 noway Oct 29 16:38:57 It should work Oct 29 16:39:12 anyone with this problem: Could you try setting different times? maybe back 30 minutes, then back an hour? Oct 29 16:39:15 haha, It's sending my Glock40 version string to the update server :P Oct 29 16:39:38 It passes that stupid check and allows you to chose firmware rom Oct 29 16:40:29 Goodbye to all :) Oct 29 16:41:43 Log data, item 5 Oct 29 16:41:43 Address=76BE42EB Oct 29 16:41:43 Message=Debug string: device_software_version=RX-34+RX-44+RX-48_DIABLO_4.2008.36-5-Glock40_PR_MR0&device_hardware_version=RX-34&device_hardware_revision=1302×tamp=2008-10-29+16:41:05 Oct 29 16:41:55 ^ that's what it's sending when I click the next button. Oct 29 16:42:03 All looks correct to me. Oct 29 16:45:14 Fuck. Replacing that LEAVE with NOP's fucks it up. Oct 29 16:46:19 qwerty12, takes the lead Oct 29 16:47:02 I've tried multiple times - back an hour, forward an hour Oct 29 16:47:10 got a 3 way tie goin between Texrat, GA, and qole Oct 29 16:47:12 ... no DST, etc Oct 29 16:47:21 I wonder if people are factoring in the wiki that I mostly wrote. ;) Oct 29 16:48:25 Probably not - you know what devs are like ;-) Oct 29 16:53:53 GA, you were supposed to vote for yourself, this would lend credibility to my last poll ;) Oct 29 16:54:28 None of the people who have really, really helped me are on that list. Oct 29 16:55:35 I hear ya, but I either do top 10 or listen to people whining about how they should have been up there :) Oct 29 16:55:38 hola moontiger Oct 29 16:55:50 if i follow the wiki, the 36-5 image is not on the download page Oct 29 16:56:01 icebattle, yeah, there's a bug. :\ Oct 29 16:56:07 At least two Nokians are working on it Oct 29 16:56:10 No idea what the blocker is. Oct 29 16:56:30 OK, thaks for the update Oct 29 16:56:35 what planet do Nokian's hail from? Oct 29 16:56:48 Finland, usually. Oct 29 16:58:22 okay, second try Oct 29 16:59:37 hey melmoth :) Oct 29 17:00:46 how's life ? Oct 29 17:01:15 very busy with work this past week ... off for 6 days after today :) Oct 29 17:01:27 i can do some more work on the web stuff ;) Oct 29 17:01:34 i m having short holidays next week too :) Oct 29 17:02:00 nice Oct 29 17:02:11 cool. I think what is "urgent" is to be able to for user to remove information, pic or gps info.Right now, only i can do it. Oct 29 17:02:13 and of course im packing and getting rid of things ready to move Oct 29 17:02:28 i can add that ability easily ;) Oct 29 17:02:37 we are not used by gazillions of people, so it is not urgent as such, but it s the next needed feature Oct 29 17:03:06 i'll take care of that tomorrow ... just delete stuff ? Oct 29 17:03:16 does it need to be saved somewhere? Oct 29 17:03:26 well, being able to delete picture and gps data that are not needed anymore Oct 29 17:03:43 being able to send the data by email could be an option too. Oct 29 17:04:03 right ... as well as setting max num pictures to keep and max gps points to keep automatically Oct 29 17:04:14 yep Oct 29 17:04:20 i'll do it tomorrow ;) Oct 29 19:18:19 Has anyone experienced the slow GPS on N810? My N800 connects to a bluetooth GPS receiver and gets a fix very quickly, but the N810 is awful with internal and bt Oct 29 19:23:11 icebattle: install agps-ui from Maemo Extras Oct 29 19:23:39 icebattle: select your location in agps-ui (approximately), then quit agps-ui and run some mapping software - it should lock on faster Oct 29 19:24:08 ok, thanks for the advice. I'll try that when I get the unit flashed Oct 29 19:24:11 I thought you kept agps-ui running? Oct 29 19:25:15 afaik, the supl daemon stores the info given by the ui Oct 29 19:25:27 no Oct 29 19:25:42 it just tores your appxmt location somewhere no need to keep it running Oct 29 19:25:54 Ah, cool Oct 29 19:26:17 It also doesn't tell you when it's successfully downloaded the data so you never really know how long to keep it open Oct 29 19:26:30 icebattle: my n810 has always been painfull slow, with or with agps Oct 29 19:27:19 That's a bit sad. My N800 works great Oct 29 19:28:01 I followed some links on the osso-gpsd fix, but the package I found wouldn't install Oct 29 19:28:21 That was a fluke anyway Oct 29 19:29:16 Jaffa: it is not perfect in many ways Oct 29 19:29:28 but it does not look like its authors take feedback Oct 29 19:29:36 qwerty12, your kick'n butt, but qole is close behind :) Oct 29 19:29:43 RST38h: *shock* Oct 29 19:29:55 Jaffa: BTW, it will download data when you access gps Oct 29 19:30:02 Jaffa: So there is NO need to keep it open Oct 29 19:30:35 icebattle: use agps-ui, case closed. Oct 29 19:30:38 penguinbait, heh. :) Oct 29 19:31:19 By your command! ;-) Oct 29 19:40:41 http://books.rusf.ru/add-on/xussr_mr/petuhy11/ufo2-07b.gif Oct 29 19:40:42 Hehe Oct 29 19:41:45 wierd :p Oct 29 19:43:34 qwerty: The author has got mental problems. He sees and classifies aliens. Oct 29 19:46:47 * lcuk freezes Oct 29 19:47:28 lcuk, cold? Oct 29 19:47:38 yeah Oct 29 19:48:03 i thought id broke my knob, but it turns out its some mixer paddle thats come off Oct 29 19:48:12 * lcuk has a cold car Oct 29 19:48:16 hehe... Oct 29 19:48:54 shurrup qwerty :P Oct 29 19:49:01 :P Oct 29 19:49:50 when we showed the offending knob to the mechanic he knew straight away what the problem was :D Oct 29 19:50:10 lol :D Oct 29 19:50:58 i really did think it was just broken, but that fan control thing in the car goes right into the heart of it all and they need 2 days to fix car :S Oct 29 19:51:12 :( Oct 29 19:51:56 i best console myself by writing some code Oct 29 19:52:20 I just got hit with a $2725 bill to replace all the sewer pipes under my house Oct 29 19:52:31 ouch Oct 29 19:52:38 I'll take the knob prob Oct 29 19:52:42 penguinbait, you're talkin shit Oct 29 19:52:47 hehe Oct 29 19:52:54 I'll feeling crappy too Oct 29 19:52:58 thats a big deal tho Oct 29 19:52:59 better than walking in shit Oct 29 19:53:34 My house smelled like a sewer for about a week Oct 29 19:53:35 penguinbait, i gather you mean the ones connecting your toilet to the main drain, or is this just a random pipe passing under your property? Oct 29 19:53:35 Jaffa: re #3827, don't we mean sortof the same, - that standard GTK apps should be able to run on top of maemo gtk without issue, and maemo gtk shouldn't make illusions about only targeting hildon+matchbox environments?, where maemo gtk is a drop in replacement that makes it more sane for mobile devices? Oct 29 19:53:42 but better than walking in shit Oct 29 19:53:46 $2725?!? How much shit goes under your house? :p Oct 29 19:54:00 $2725 is pretty low for something like this Oct 29 19:54:14 do you not know me? lots of shit :) Oct 29 19:54:14 Consider amount of digging they have to do Oct 29 19:54:25 :) Oct 29 19:54:28 And playing in my shit Oct 29 19:54:35 depends how its cured and where from Oct 29 19:54:49 Happily pay the bill so I did not have to crawl in and do it Oct 29 19:55:38 100% agree penguinbait i dunno how ppl coped before proper waste treatment Oct 29 19:55:53 lcuk: septic tanks Oct 29 19:56:02 the thames Oct 29 19:56:02 sod all this computers mean we are modern - its the toilets that make a civilization Oct 29 19:56:07 Jaffa: where "normal" gtk is targeted towards definate desktop use and "maemo" gtk is targeted towards mobile use, with intend to have gtk flexible enough to accomodate those eventually :P Oct 29 19:56:20 lcuk: or, rather, holes in the ground Oct 29 19:56:32 I hear ya, I used to actually have to work for a living, now I just play with computers :) Oct 29 19:56:44 RST38h, as a russian you will know that walking out to a hole in the ground is bad for your extremities Oct 29 19:56:53 heh pb Oct 29 19:57:58 http://uk.gizmodo.com/2008/10/29/robot_wine_taster_samples_huma.html Oct 29 19:58:40 lcuk: as a russian, you usually wear stuff Oct 29 19:59:09 how do you ummmm evacuate your waste into said hole in the ground without having things blowing in the wind? Oct 29 19:59:42 lcuk: quickly. Oct 29 19:59:48 heh good answer Oct 29 20:00:18 "like hedgehogs making love - slowly and VERY carefully" Oct 29 20:00:53 tastes like bacon! mmmmm bacon Oct 29 20:01:06 i suppose this was why vodka was invented, both for the numbing effect and the high concentration means less visits outside ;) Oct 29 20:01:32 i love the way my xchat highlights bacon :D Oct 29 20:01:37 Stskeeps: yes, I suppose so. Oct 29 20:01:54 bacon, dogs don't know its not bacon Oct 29 20:02:00 maybe its human ? Oct 29 20:02:40 omg are you sayin beggin strips are people? Oct 29 20:02:48 maybe ? Oct 29 20:02:52 :O Oct 29 20:03:00 they don't know its not bacon? what the hell is it? Oct 29 20:04:05 Jaffa: alright, just got confused :P Oct 29 20:04:29 right, i think tonight i shall mostly be trying to write a gui designer Oct 29 20:04:35 I see they play that comercial in UK too? Oct 29 20:04:41 lcuk: why? Oct 29 20:04:45 no penguinbait i read a lot of bacon sites Oct 29 20:04:56 http://www.reddit.com/r/Bacon/ Oct 29 20:04:59 from here mainly Oct 29 20:05:12 * lcuk gets hungry whenever he browses Oct 29 20:05:27 hehe Oct 29 20:06:09 RST38h, cos i keep sketching out GUIs and want to test them and see if they work but am very lazy and just want to use what ive sketched Oct 29 20:07:20 how lcuk thinks when he is hungry, mapped out > http://incredimazing.com/page/Bacon_Flowchart Oct 29 20:08:27 hmm, the page is on the small side :p Oct 29 20:08:59 increase zoom, maximum bacon Oct 29 20:09:08 :) Oct 29 20:09:11 johnx: possible new focus, look at what causes maemo gtk to incompatible with non-hildon/non-matchbox Oct 29 20:09:25 I like the "Are you wearing pants?" Oct 29 20:09:47 you don't need pants to make bacon - a good apron will save you Oct 29 20:10:10 "you also hate getting hot bacon grease on your junk" Oct 29 20:10:33 apron == junk protection Oct 29 20:10:42 or does it mean something else in your country Oct 29 20:11:15 omg jake cant say father christmas Oct 29 20:11:20 he says farmer christmas Oct 29 20:11:34 so i said am i father or farmer Oct 29 20:11:37 he said im dad Oct 29 20:12:08 jake? your son? Oct 29 20:12:11 yeah Oct 29 20:12:18 jake or jacob? Oct 29 20:12:29 you're a bad parent if you talk to kids about christmas before it's december :P Oct 29 20:12:32 depends if hes been naughty or not Oct 29 20:12:39 it starts 1. december, end of story Oct 29 20:12:39 :P Oct 29 20:12:47 I also have a Jacob Oct 29 20:12:52 Oct 29 20:12:56 heh sts Oct 29 20:13:11 i bet my jacob is naughtier (and also cuter) than yours :P Oct 29 20:13:12 he's about qwerty's age :) Oct 29 20:13:19 heh, mines only 6 Oct 29 20:13:32 yes, my Jacob is a smelly teenager Oct 29 20:13:56 ive got a smelly teenage son as well Oct 29 20:14:10 he just came back from camp this weekend after firing big guns :S Oct 29 20:14:11 I have 4 - 9, 11, 13, 15 Oct 29 20:14:12 hi, i wrote a program, when i execute it in terminal everithing is ok, but when i run it from menu program exit after 2 minutes, any ideas? Oct 29 20:14:21 I finally figured out what was causing that Oct 29 20:14:32 zs, you have your settings wrong on your startup .desktop thingy Oct 29 20:14:42 you havent registered with osso or whatever it is meant to be Oct 29 20:14:47 zs, using dbus? Oct 29 20:15:21 b rb Oct 29 20:16:57 * qwerty12_N800 cries as I find my tiny collection of scummvm games gone Oct 29 20:19:10 qwerty12_N800: i created com.nokia..service and inside i got [D-BUS Service] Name=com.nokia. Exec=/usr/bin/, is it correct? Oct 29 20:20:29 zs, looks like it, are you calling osso_initialize? Oct 29 20:20:39 I have a Palm LifeDrive that can be run Maemo him? Oct 29 20:21:12 qwerty12_N800: no Oct 29 20:23:16 zs, maybe http://maemo.org/api_refs/4.1/libosso-2.1 will help Oct 29 20:23:56 http://maemo.org/api_refs/4.1/libosso-2.16-1/ does help? Oct 29 20:23:58 qwerty12_N800: not found, ok i will do some research thanks Oct 29 20:24:29 * lcuk is amazed his osso registration worked first time Oct 29 20:24:33 zs, sorry, here's a direct link: http://maemo.org/api_refs/4.1/libosso-2.16-1/group__Init.html#g05d45d1e72c2cd74f665086225141431 Oct 29 20:24:37 i still dont know what i did Oct 29 20:26:23 what are the gtk+ docs called in Ubuntu? Oct 29 20:27:14 lcuk: adding gtk ui? ;) Oct 29 20:27:43 no RST38h Oct 29 20:27:52 at least not yet Oct 29 20:28:03 lardman: hellou, i got the loading to work when i switched the size to 0x100000, thanks Oct 29 20:28:12 lardman: next problem ahead :) Oct 29 20:28:17 lardman: I've ordered the book, new, from the US for a total of 17.75 - delivery estimate is 31 Oct, which seems a little eager :) Oct 29 20:28:38 Jaffa: I'm holding off still Oct 29 20:28:44 baddu: what's up now? Oct 29 20:28:49 I'll let you know if it's any good. Oct 29 20:28:54 lardman, libgtk2.0-doc? Oct 29 20:29:07 yep thanks, just found it :) Oct 29 20:29:13 :) Oct 29 20:29:17 lardman: i try to communicate wit floats through ipbuf and normal messaging Oct 29 20:29:42 floats? Oct 29 20:29:50 as in floating point? Oct 29 20:30:06 lardman: my source and destination values do not match then :P floats yeah, floating point variables Oct 29 20:30:28 32bit types get their top and bottom 16bits switched around Oct 29 20:30:38 best to write 16bit types Oct 29 20:30:42 and read them Oct 29 20:30:57 lardman: so is the dsp big endian and arm little endian? Oct 29 20:31:01 0x12345678 -> 0x56781234 Oct 29 20:31:26 dsp is bigendian for the two 16bit chunks in a 32bit type, but the 16bit chunks are littleendian Oct 29 20:31:29 lardman: i suppose when the endiannes changes also words are 'shifted' Oct 29 20:31:39 yes, bytes are shifted Oct 29 20:31:41 lardman: ok Oct 29 20:31:43 and a byte is 16bits Oct 29 20:31:55 lardman: aaa, of course Oct 29 20:32:38 but bytes are read/written the same on both platforms Oct 29 20:32:45 Right, time to watch the Heroes I downloaded today Oct 29 20:32:47 lardman: i agree that it's better to communicate with 16bit values, but i use floats in the dsp code (quite important in opengl) Oct 29 20:33:22 lardman: so probably i try with some byteswap thing first Oct 29 20:33:30 baddu: fair enough, might be worth copying the data to local memory (32bit copies are faster than 16bit) and doing some byte swapping en route Oct 29 20:33:57 There's probably an ASM command to allow you to read them backwards if you look for it Oct 29 20:34:42 ok. let's see if i progress somehow Oct 29 20:35:06 right, will be back in a while, pm me if you have troubles Oct 29 20:35:13 (just so I notice it) Oct 29 20:35:16 ok Oct 29 20:37:33 GeneralAntilles: hey Oct 29 20:38:02 GeneralAntilles: was a busy day at work but I made an (ugly) attempt. I originally contemplated tokenising in pairs and cleverness, but the cleverness was getting longer than ugly regex - so I did ugly regex Oct 29 20:38:11 GeneralAntilles: if you want to clean it up, feel free :) Oct 29 20:40:21 GeneralAntilles: well, anyway, here ya go. http://m8y.org/bookmarklets.xhtml - I kind of wish bugzilla would do this itself. Oct 29 20:48:38 tokenising would have been easier if they'd kept their variable names consistent Oct 29 20:49:27 could have just had a blacklist and a list of ['bugid','email1'] then match on each where var began with pattern. Oct 29 20:49:30 only. you can't. Oct 29 20:55:09 what kind of GTK+ widget should I use for a spreadsheet-type view? Oct 29 20:59:43 ah, GtkTreeView, strangely non-descriptive name.... Oct 29 21:04:00 qwerty12_N800: thanks, with osso_initialize it works :) Oct 29 21:04:12 heh, cool :) Oct 29 21:06:34 time to go sleep, bye :) Oct 29 21:06:48 bye Oct 29 21:08:05 lardman|tv: there is a really nice tutorial about gtktreeview Oct 29 21:08:18 they are ...a bit clumsy to work with Oct 29 21:10:24 http://scentric.net/tutorial/ Oct 29 21:10:31 (doing that i c in guess ?) Oct 29 22:20:48 melmoth: thanks, I googled and found that, looking now Oct 29 23:00:02 I relented and bought the GTK+ book Oct 29 23:00:14 searching the interweb is painful Oct 29 23:00:53 :) dead tree Oct 29 23:01:23 well, as long as I don;t burn it there's no CO2 lost ;) Oct 29 23:03:08 real books are so much better than the net, i remember poring through the amiga programming manual for months :) Oct 29 23:03:45 information being so free now is a blessing and a curse - it gets in the way of focus Oct 29 23:03:55 Well written documentation is great. Oct 29 23:04:17 I recommend supermicro's manuals, they are refreshingly well written. Oct 29 23:04:23 its is essential in my mind - but also a very difficult thing to do and an art form to master Oct 29 23:04:51 writing good documentation is as alien to me as coding the dsp ;) Oct 29 23:04:53 I far prefer paper for reading, especially for reference Oct 29 23:07:49 anyway, GTK+ seems pretty nice, and easy too, just need some more readily available reference material to make it less frustrating Oct 29 23:08:26 have we got it for this platform? Oct 29 23:08:42 it's called a book ;) Oct 29 23:08:59 not the book you plonker! i mean the library lol Oct 29 23:09:16 gtk+! Oct 29 23:09:21 of course Oct 29 23:09:43 is it greatly different to the gtk that ive seen? or have i been tinkering with gtk all this time? Oct 29 23:09:48 * lcuk doesnt know Oct 29 23:09:59 all the same Oct 29 23:10:26 with the same horrendous c interface ;) Oct 29 23:10:48 of course Oct 29 23:10:50 :) Oct 29 23:10:53 i dont think ANY c interface is nice actually Oct 29 23:12:17 im so embedded in vb's object.method(arg) syntax doing method(object,arg) feels wrong Oct 29 23:17:04 the SIBO C used in the Psion 3 was quite nice Oct 29 23:18:39 lardman, nice set of libraries allowing decent device access? Oct 29 23:19:04 no, it implemented classes in C Oct 29 23:19:21 was quite nifty Oct 29 23:19:23 nice Oct 29 23:19:31 vala does similar ;) it compiles to c Oct 29 23:19:37 like the original cfront :) Oct 29 23:19:47 (c++ predecessor) Oct 29 23:19:59 yeah, this was unenforced by the compiler, just through coding structure Oct 29 23:20:55 heh, with a decent set of macros you could get close Oct 29 23:21:39 yeah, I remember someone wrote some for OPL, called it OOPL Oct 29 23:21:43 i tried it just before the summit - had reference counting and basic inheritence and constructors and destructors and instancing Oct 29 23:24:41 lardman, awww cant find anything on that (early models in any language stuff interest me greatly) Oct 29 23:26:59 im goin for the night anyway, inspiration strikes.. Oct 29 23:27:10 gnite lardman Oct 29 23:27:53 night lcuk, If I find a link I'll post it Oct 29 23:27:56 check the log tomorrow Oct 29 23:28:15 k thx Oct 29 23:29:21 see if it flattened your neighbors dog? Oct 29 23:36:42 lcuk: well here's OPL (or at least a quick intro): http://www.symbioosi.net/English/opl-programming.html, here's OOPL: http://web.archive.org/web/20050130130448/www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/9577/oopl.html Oct 29 23:37:03 I have the sibo SDK somewhere, but can't seem to find it atm (I found it on the interweb back in the old days) Oct 29 23:39:49 would a basic like language work on this device - i mean real old style but working fast and well on the graphics screen Oct 29 23:40:01 sibo, cool: http://scss.com.au/family/andrew/pdas/psion/ooprog.pdf Oct 29 23:40:18 we have Python, that's pretty basic-like Oct 29 23:41:07 i suppose its not the language, but the ide that i mean Oct 29 23:42:33 I'm not sure the IDE makes much difference really, unless it's something VB-like Oct 29 23:43:25 sure it does - the closest we have to a designable ide at the moment is numpty physics - stop the program, make changes to the design, rerun Oct 29 23:43:59 we don't have that on maemo - development is so disjointed Oct 29 23:44:32 i code on one machine, write debug statements compile code, execute and read the console rather than feeling the program Oct 29 23:45:18 well Python on machine would work fine, and in fact there are already IDEs that do syntax highlighting iirc Oct 29 23:45:23 the more i talk about this, the more i know im gonna write it ;) Oct 29 23:45:30 :) Oct 29 23:45:59 language is only one part - its the gui design, i keep eyeing up my menu key and wanting to press it to stop liqbase Oct 29 23:46:21 and view the tiletree side on and manipulate it and stuff :) Oct 29 23:46:39 another press takes me to the code window Oct 29 23:46:40 a VB-like app would be cool Oct 29 23:46:51 and a third carries on running Oct 29 23:47:32 ok :) ill see how far i get ;) i already dev on device, so even if the gui designer had to recompile, i know what im up against Oct 29 23:47:49 but if i put in python bindings it will be simpler anyway Oct 29 23:48:06 kot really doesnt like python ;) Oct 29 23:48:09 I still prefer dev'ing on a PC Oct 29 23:48:24 though for something like Python, I'm considering going on device Oct 29 23:48:27 its the UI design aspect that appeals to me Oct 29 23:48:42 hmm, definitely do that off-device! Oct 29 23:48:58 though I suppose there's no reason for that Oct 29 23:49:01 im sick of sketching out what i want and then having to go code it - its a piece of piss to save as template and get the code for me Oct 29 23:51:15 in the released version of liqbase I allow any sketch to have an arbitary name, im allowing selection of named sketches and insertion into a sketch (stamp tool is for ANY sketch not just self..) Oct 29 23:51:33 so i should just be able to write a code template and have it executed as required Oct 29 23:51:43 ill have a look this weekend at python binding Oct 29 23:52:11 I'll have to see the finished thing I think, sorry brain is a bit busy with treeviews atm Oct 29 23:52:13 it should automatically create me a typed tree of tiles - how to link that to code im not sure yet Oct 29 23:52:23 sos mine ;) Oct 29 23:53:08 anyway lardmna, gnite again lol :P Oct 29 23:53:48 night night :) **** ENDING LOGGING AT Thu Oct 30 01:32:09 2008 **** BEGIN LOGGING AT Thu Oct 30 01:32:37 2008 Oct 30 01:41:23 using windows makes me feel like i'm riding a bike with a load of shit in my pants Oct 30 01:49:12 http://www.danpat.fi/janne/flash/windowsrg.swf <- Windows "really good" edition - in your own browser... **** ENDING LOGGING AT Thu Oct 30 02:59:57 2008