**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Thu Oct 30 02:59:57 2008 Oct 30 04:17:51 i want to send the music playing from my laptop or PC to my 770 connected to the home stereo, while also allowing the 770 to play locally Oct 30 04:18:28 * pupnik ponders what is best solution for that Oct 30 04:19:17 do you plan to remote control the 770? Oct 30 04:23:04 johnx: well. right now i play stuff on the 770 by ssh-ing to it Oct 30 04:23:29 but someone sends me a mp3 link on my laptop.. then i think well... i'd like to route that audio to the 770 Oct 30 04:24:12 so i guess the level would be a network-able sound server akin to esd Oct 30 04:24:14 routing audio is difficult, but running an mpd server on the 770 and mounting a share on your desktop would be easier Oct 30 04:24:25 mpd? Oct 30 04:24:41 http://musicpd.org Oct 30 04:24:49 basically it's just the backend of a music player Oct 30 04:25:01 then there are a ton of "clients" that connect to it and tell it to play music Oct 30 04:25:40 the music has to be on an fs that the daemon can see though Oct 30 04:26:28 seems like a good approach for some things. Oct 30 04:27:10 but i'd prefer the more general "send my sound to computer 1, 3 and 5" Oct 30 04:27:35 well, the reason I suggested mpd was that it's a heck of a lot easier :) Oct 30 04:27:58 yes Oct 30 04:28:12 a remote esd server should do the trick I guess Oct 30 04:29:10 ah esd does it Oct 30 04:29:16 http://developer.gnome.org/doc/whitepapers/esd/ Oct 30 04:29:51 I wonder if the 770 has the bandwidth to handle it... Oct 30 04:31:19 44.1khz stereo needs 1.4 mb/s Oct 30 04:33:23 i could also set up icecast mp3/ogg streaming on each source computer, then have a client on the homestereo770 listen permanently to each source computer's stream Oct 30 04:34:17 icecast+darkice... will stream anything going over your local soundcard Oct 30 04:34:39 that's an interesting idea Oct 30 04:34:50 is that 1.4MB/s or 1.4Mb/s BTW? Oct 30 04:34:55 <- lazy :) Oct 30 04:37:41 bits Oct 30 04:37:50 ah, that's not too bad then Oct 30 04:39:21 yeah i'd prefer to avoid the mp3/ogg encoding if posisble. so maybe only allow one network esd client to the 770 at a time Oct 30 04:40:22 an esd server can have as many clients as you want as long as the bandwidth is there Oct 30 04:40:48 yar Oct 30 04:41:02 it's just that all the sound will get mixed and sound horrific if two people play mp3s at the same time :D Oct 30 04:42:28 yup Oct 30 04:42:46 the mpd and xmms2 solutions are good if all you want is to play from a collection though Oct 30 04:43:00 but i'd also like to send the sound there, if i'm playing a movie from a laptop Oct 30 04:43:05 a combination would work well too :) Oct 30 04:43:11 no reason to go with just one Oct 30 04:43:14 also true Oct 30 04:43:50 would also be nice to have the 770 scroll the songtitle in a huge font Oct 30 04:44:31 there's a couple mpd clients that will do that I think Oct 30 04:44:39 like mpdosd or something Oct 30 04:45:24 ty, this is good stuff Oct 30 04:46:06 sure, I'm actually thinking of a use for my zaurus 5500 at the same time :) Oct 30 04:47:05 then we can also hack this into a mpd/xmms2 client "Querying a database using open source voice control software" http://www.linux.com/feature/134671 Oct 30 04:47:57 on the mpc side you could do the whole thing in a shell script with the "mpc" client Oct 30 04:48:16 hooray for the console Oct 30 04:48:20 and pipes Oct 30 05:06:55 still love that 770 Oct 30 05:07:18 * johnx still loves his zaurus 5500 Oct 30 05:09:00 yeah i would to if i'd ever gotten one Oct 30 05:09:46 I have too many linux gadgets though :/ Oct 30 05:12:43 * pupnik too Oct 30 05:12:55 i'm hoping to stumble over a thinkpad X40 lying on the street Oct 30 05:13:15 they're nice little laptops Oct 30 05:13:28 I was looking at used X32 thinkpads the other day Oct 30 05:13:45 they have usb2.0? Oct 30 05:13:58 it's centrino / pentium M so I think yes Oct 30 05:14:00 my thinkpad A30 only has usb1.0 and that sucks Oct 30 05:14:12 that's a PIII, right? Oct 30 05:14:24 P4 added usb2 if my memory serves Oct 30 05:14:34 yes. i don't want a p4 laptop Oct 30 05:14:43 hah. no one does Oct 30 05:14:45 either p3 or a real pentium M Oct 30 05:14:57 that's why I ended up with a P4 laptop for free :/ Oct 30 05:15:14 the x series never had a P4 though, so you're in luck :) Oct 30 05:15:51 would you take an x32 over x40? Oct 30 05:16:02 depends on price I suppose Oct 30 05:16:11 I'd take an x200 over both :) Oct 30 05:17:57 mmm... the keyboard + trackpoint is just ... physically addictive Oct 30 05:18:58 * pupnik pondering selling the acer aspire one for a small old thinkpad Oct 30 05:19:56 How much is an X40 around you? Oct 30 05:22:42 the ebay sharks want 320-340 euro Oct 30 05:22:52 bout 400 usd Oct 30 05:23:32 An X32 goes for about the same locally, high $300s to low $400s Oct 30 05:23:43 USD Oct 30 05:24:31 bah, others wanting 430 euro for an x31 with 512MB Oct 30 05:25:05 ha! that's pretty steep Oct 30 05:25:58 bbl naptime Oct 30 05:26:09 'later Oct 30 06:38:40 morn Oct 30 06:40:58 morning :D Oct 30 06:41:35 working on making proper deb packages for poky's matchbox desktop Oct 30 06:41:49 hehe, okay Oct 30 06:42:19 well it looks nice and I find it usable in angstrom/poky Oct 30 06:43:04 how goes the maemo-gtk vs gtk fight on your side? Oct 30 06:43:35 i wonder about nature of maemo gtk - should it be a drop in replacement for gtk, with certain optimizations that make also normal apps work a little more better on mobile ui, with some extensions to add in for mobile Oct 30 06:43:47 and then we file bugs on when it collides with normal wms/etc Oct 30 06:44:49 hmm, well there's precedent for that. Angstrom's gtk has some mobile-specific changes, in the file chooser for example Oct 30 06:46:59 so it's "not a bug" when normal maemo apps doesn't link into normal gtk, but it's a bug when normal gtk apps doesn't work on maemo gtk Oct 30 06:47:00 so just have "maemo-gtk provides gtk" ? Oct 30 06:48:26 something like that i guess Oct 30 06:48:29 Stskeeps: as far as i have underestood gtk app will work on maemo, hildon is just a layer of specific widget build on top of gtk Oct 30 06:49:00 melmoth, the problem is that maemo's version of gtk is actually different and somewhat incompatible with upstream gtk Oct 30 06:49:24 melmoth: yeah, but i go a step further, maemo gtk without hildon/matchbox Oct 30 06:49:30 try a dialog box.. you'll see Oct 30 06:49:40 impossible to get away Oct 30 06:49:48 / notification box Oct 30 06:50:23 johnx: how was it again? i could use it as a drop in replacement but there were use case bugs Oct 30 06:51:26 I guess incompatible isn't exactly the right term... Oct 30 06:52:07 I guess as long as maemo-gtk is a strict superset of gtk it's not as big of a problem Oct 30 06:52:28 Hi ! Oct 30 06:53:34 hi vincenzo88 Oct 30 06:54:08 johnx: i guess maemo gtk has it's place in a mobile dist if it doesn't mess normal usage up Oct 30 06:55:02 agreed, as long as nokia is willing to take on the effort of essentially maintaining a "forked" gtk and continues to bring new upstream versions in as needed Oct 30 06:55:46 I guess one can basically think of gtk as a generic library and maemo-gtk and vanilla-gtk are just providers of it Oct 30 06:55:56 someone program with Qt on Nokia N800/810 ? (i don't know GTK :() Oct 30 06:57:44 you can use qt on the n8x0. there's some info here: http://qt4.garage.maemo.org/ Oct 30 06:57:48 johnx: that's one step on the way atleast if we can convince nokia of this :P Oct 30 06:57:50 I haven't tried it though Oct 30 06:59:08 Thanks johnx i have see this link but i don't know if it's reliable Oct 30 07:00:21 Nokia will provide more and more support for Qt in the future. They own the company that makes Qt :) Oct 30 07:00:36 Good :D Oct 30 07:09:10 GeneralAntilles: I wonder if a wiki-based discussion from community side "How would you like Maemo 5 to be like, as a developer" could be, where we try from scratch to envision a system from kernel level to hildon Oct 30 07:09:22 for nokia to take inspiration from Oct 30 07:09:48 Stskeeps, might be a little late for maemo 5 Oct 30 07:09:59 johnx: i'm not so sure honestly Oct 30 07:10:25 something in their statements tell me they're not as far as they would like Oct 30 07:10:47 well if they'll really have an SDK preview out in november/december that means a lot of the interesting stuff must be set in stone Oct 30 07:11:14 they released a package diff already, and it's just a normal debian + maemo gtk + hildon sdk Oct 30 07:11:27 can be distro-independent Oct 30 07:27:40 johnx: http://qgil.jaiku.com/presence/47635104 , bottom Oct 30 07:28:38 just to poke them a bit.. let's see if it's possible to move them in a similar direction as deblet would provide Oct 30 07:28:48 :) Oct 30 07:28:56 stirring up the beehive? Oct 30 07:31:49 Yes, quite, Stskeeps. Oct 30 07:32:02 A wiki page outlining all of the blockers Oct 30 07:37:41 johnx: well it's about last chance for maemo if they want to, there's a lot of tendancies around :P Oct 30 07:38:11 A list of specifics will help a lot. Oct 30 07:38:14 (detailed) Oct 30 07:38:53 well i have some ideas in my head :P Oct 30 07:39:25 http://mobile.slashdot.org/mobile/08/10/29/1710220.shtml <- kinda struck a chord with me (unrelated, but related to the thing about maemo mattering as a not-only-nokia-platform) Oct 30 07:43:37 johnx: i think the best hint that a community is actually open is ability to stirr the beehive. Oct 30 07:53:55 sts: most chinese "clones" ar absolute shit Oct 30 07:54:15 not real clones, too, just vaguely looking like the real thing Oct 30 08:06:20 RST38h: probably, but it's an interesting thing anyway Oct 30 08:11:46 * qwerty12 should write a book on how to ensure you'll need a reflash. I ran cd /usr/llib/ ; strip * for jokes and it wouldn't boot :D Oct 30 08:24:27 Alright, as h-a-m is turning into the pilot program for the open development process, I think it would behoove use to get behind it as much as possible. Oct 30 08:24:42 Sts: my guess is that it will compete with WinMobile and cause Microsoft to make previous WinMobile versions free Oct 30 08:24:55 GeneralAntilles: I agree, let's see if we can make this work. Oct 30 08:25:11 Yes, gentlemen, but will community changes be ACCEPTED by Nokia? Oct 30 08:25:15 Any qord from Quim? Oct 30 08:25:24 RST38h, see -developers Oct 30 08:25:24 hey GeneralAntilles, tried entering about: into the tablet browser? i think i see where the microb confusion comes from... Oct 30 08:25:27 ok Oct 30 08:25:58 see it Oct 30 08:26:21 t_s_o, my suspicion is that the branding is going to change in Fremantle Oct 30 08:26:49 Probably the biggest reason the MicroB branding applies to only the engine now is because the UI is closed Oct 30 08:26:52 RST38h, i guess nokia may take things from community into 'stable'.. like on other distros Oct 30 08:27:02 and lumping in closed shit with MicroB's good name dirties the brand. Oct 30 08:27:09 would not surprise me, fremantle is starting to look like a "lets burn old bridges" update Oct 30 08:27:26 and at the same time confuses the hell out of everything... Oct 30 08:27:42 General: The funniest thing is, the current "microb ui" is really really thin wrapper around browserd Oct 30 08:27:43 Since the browser UI in Fremantle is going open, there's no reason not to include it in the branding Oct 30 08:27:55 Why the hell make it closed is beyond me Oct 30 08:27:56 and strong arguments for it. Oct 30 08:28:06 hmm, if its going open, anyone attempting a backport? Oct 30 08:28:07 RST38h, the user should be easily able to change to 'unstable' i guess Oct 30 08:28:22 On the other hand, Jaaksi is right: open source only makes sense when there are people willing to work on it Oct 30 08:28:34 RST38h: i smell a "differenziation" reason... Oct 30 08:28:36 Well: Opera (all closed) -> MicroB (open engine) -> MicroB (open everything) Oct 30 08:28:55 Call it MicroC! =) Oct 30 08:29:01 :P Oct 30 08:29:06 Or MilliB, if you wish Oct 30 08:29:17 MicroPlan9 Oct 30 08:29:21 MicroC++ could be the next one :) Oct 30 08:29:28 Plan9 name has bad stigma Oct 30 08:29:30 RST38h, i know this from popular oss.. its hard to get dedicated developers Oct 30 08:29:33 MicroH Oct 30 08:29:46 never really took off while being a very good project Oct 30 08:30:03 Sts: Mozilla, for example, is mostly developer by paid people Oct 30 08:30:25 RST38h: Sure, linux kernel too. Oct 30 08:30:28 developed (shit, I am bad at typing lately :() Oct 30 08:30:45 RST38h: But in the end it _is_ an open project. Oct 30 08:30:50 RST38h, it's that damn muscle memory. ;) Oct 30 08:31:13 open source != non-commercial Oct 30 08:31:23 RST38h, and ive grown to realize corporate backing is a good thing, means more incentive and developer time Oct 30 08:31:27 So, maybe a combination of Nokia-paid people and hobbyists Oct 30 08:32:14 X-Fade, about git in Garage, at the very least, how difficult would it be to have git projects hosted on Garage, a link to a project's git repository on the project page and maybe a switch in settings enable git/svn? Oct 30 08:32:59 GeneralAntilles: Tekojo is looking into that, so it might be good to ask him. Oct 30 08:33:19 RST38h, and companies interested in improving maemo for their on-maemo projects' sake Oct 30 08:33:26 GeneralAntilles: There currently is no open git-scm plugin for gforge, so that needs to be developed. Oct 30 08:33:28 X-Fade, OK. Oct 30 08:33:50 I don't think we need to worry much about integration is the short term Oct 30 08:33:57 but just providing the option would be good. Oct 30 08:34:10 Yeah, we could create repos manually. Oct 30 08:34:29 I doubt there's more than a dozen projects that would really be interested in it. Oct 30 08:35:43 sts: no commercial maemo projects so far Oct 30 08:35:56 Not true Oct 30 08:36:07 Rhapsody, Skype, "Map" Oct 30 08:36:10 gizmo? boingo? Oct 30 08:36:10 Possibly Gizmo Oct 30 08:36:15 and that note taking app Oct 30 08:36:24 Fring. Oct 30 08:36:25 Maybe Garnet too Oct 30 08:36:31 RST38h, my work does sortof, but its research Oct 30 08:36:39 Fring and Gizmo are free gateways to some universla service Oct 30 08:36:52 with eventual commercial intent Oct 30 08:36:57 they are projects by companies developed to increase revenue Oct 30 08:37:01 how is that not commercial? Oct 30 08:37:07 Sts: what work? Oct 30 08:37:17 hi all Oct 30 08:37:20 Garnet does not sell yet Oct 30 08:37:30 RST38h, pervasive healthcare Oct 30 08:37:35 hello cityLights Oct 30 08:37:39 johnx: companies can live without them Oct 30 08:37:45 I need some help Oct 30 08:37:47 Sts: ah Oct 30 08:37:53 StsN800 is making a robot doctor out of Beagle Boards. Oct 30 08:38:01 RST38h, you're changing you definitions mid-discussion :) Oct 30 08:38:07 indeed Oct 30 08:38:23 bbl switching bus Oct 30 08:38:29 after I defined an email , my N800 started downloading all msgs, thus my root file system got full Oct 30 08:38:32 johnx: Ok, by commercial I mean something whose owner's business depends on Oct 30 08:38:54 johnx: You can't say that not having Gizmo on tablets will do anything to its owner Oct 30 08:38:59 now when I click the "programs" I get a gray menu Oct 30 08:39:04 Bizarre definition Oct 30 08:39:04 just another nice-to-have client Oct 30 08:39:31 johnx , any idea how to fix it? Oct 30 08:39:44 General: Maybe nieeds to be clarified but I hope you see the meaning Oct 30 08:39:49 One Wal-Mart location certainly isn't vital to Wal-Mart's success, so you mean to say it isn't commercial? Oct 30 08:40:06 it is more like "one walmart location in the middle of nowhere" Oct 30 08:40:41 cityLights, are you using IMAP or POP3? Oct 30 08:40:47 I think that the file in-charge of the programs on my device got messed up, which file is it? Oct 30 08:41:11 johnx, I fixed the problem with the email Oct 30 08:41:29 and I made space in my root file system Oct 30 08:41:43 I use diablo and boot of the SD Oct 30 08:41:49 ah, ok, the menu is generated out of .desktop files in /usr/share/applications/hildon Oct 30 08:42:00 also it might need to be regenerated ... somehow Oct 30 08:42:05 how may I recover it? Oct 30 08:42:30 GeneralAntilles, did you ever manage to fix your menu or did you end up reflashing Oct 30 08:42:32 also, what files are backed up when using the provided backup program? is it just /home? Oct 30 08:42:42 johnx, yerga fixed it for me somehow Oct 30 08:42:46 Though I lost all my menu positions. Oct 30 08:43:02 cityLights, yes, and some of your settings, such as repositories in /etc/ Oct 30 08:43:28 yerga GeneralAntilles, cp /etc/xdg/menus/applications.menu /home/user/.osso/menus/ ? Oct 30 08:43:40 RST38h, so by commercial you mean "a commercial product important enough to make or break a company"? Oct 30 08:43:42 Something like that Oct 30 08:43:48 may I ONLY copy the /bin /usr and so on except /home from the flash to my SD to fix it? Oct 30 08:44:25 cityLights, that's a really bad way to do it. Oct 30 08:44:35 and it also won't fix anything Oct 30 08:44:37 Reduces battery life and makes things a lot more fragile. Oct 30 08:45:02 ok, so how should I fix .desktop file and get all my programs back? Oct 30 08:45:21 cityLights, qwerty12 gave you the fix. read his message Oct 30 08:45:41 oh , now I got it Oct 30 08:45:43 thanks Oct 30 08:45:48 min, let me see Oct 30 08:46:43 there are sooo many other channels that need a qwerty12 Oct 30 08:47:12 johnx, time to code up a qwerty12 bot? Oct 30 08:47:21 hehe :) Oct 30 08:47:27 now for a totaly different question, how can I save a site certificate? Oct 30 08:47:36 Well, someone's coded qwerty12.exe :P Oct 30 08:48:03 I mean , when I connect to the uni wifi, I am redirected to 1.1.1.1 and there to https Oct 30 08:48:05 Morning, all Oct 30 08:48:22 there I put my login and password and after that I can surf Oct 30 08:48:43 every time I am notifed that the certificate is missing and I click continue Oct 30 08:49:03 GeneralAntilles, Jaffa: It might be a good idea to create a concrete plan for introducing the new top-level categories. Oct 30 08:49:27 X-Fade, yeah, I was waiting on confirmation of the proposed list. ;) Oct 30 08:49:48 Current wiki page talks about sub-cats in the same block, but I really think that is step 2 or later ;) Oct 30 08:49:58 Definitely Oct 30 08:50:21 Well, shall I blog about the list we have now and ask for last feedback? Oct 30 08:51:33 I will mail Eero too, to ask what steps are needed for Packaging Policy change ;) Oct 30 08:52:49 Good morning Oct 30 08:53:56 any guys around who have used osso-addressbook library? Oct 30 09:00:17 X-Fade, https://wiki.maemo.org/Task:Package_categories updated Oct 30 09:00:46 morning Oct 30 09:00:48 Jaffa, after having slept on it, I can sort of see the point of Personal & Social. Oct 30 09:01:03 But I'm wondering if the i18n could be better. Oct 30 09:02:29 GeneralAntilles: Ok, looks better ;) Oct 30 09:02:59 Yeah, that's the one problem I have with it too. In English at least it needs a whole sentence to properly describe Oct 30 09:04:48 I'd rather go with one word i18n names. But that is pretty tough ;) Oct 30 09:05:00 Yeah, as would I. Oct 30 09:06:02 GeneralAntilles: I can see its point for contact management, but the example applications are too disparate for it to make sense. If we have "Personal & Social", it makes sense for the sports tracker type thing suggests it's too wide ranging. Oct 30 09:06:29 http://www.apple.com/iphone/appstore/ Oct 30 09:06:46 Ahaha Oct 30 09:06:47 And I really think calendars fit into it a whole lot worse than they do into "Office". And, similarly, IRC clients, email clients etc. *should* be in "Network" Oct 30 09:06:53 Check the # app in "Books" Oct 30 09:07:32 The NIH syndrome of "well, it doesn't matter what other people do - even if they're better funded, more usable and have had proper studies and cash thrown at them" is a bit bogglesome Oct 30 09:09:27 I guess at worst we'll see what happens with the current list and modify it in a few months if need be. Oct 30 09:09:47 I can live with that I guess Oct 30 09:10:45 it would be nice if we didn't change it except when people were being forced to repackage anyways (new binary architecture, new API, changed pcakge names, etc) Oct 30 09:11:38 actually, if we get debtags at some point this becomes largely irrelevant Oct 30 09:13:11 No-ones actually suggested *how* debtags will solve any of the problems, have they? Oct 30 09:13:25 Jaffa, magic bullets are magic. Oct 30 09:13:29 Jaffa: Marius did. Oct 30 09:14:03 You can add multple tags to decribe a package. So it will show up in multiple 'categories'. Oct 30 09:14:07 Where? What tags are defined, for example? How on earth would the UI work? Oct 30 09:14:53 Marius to use debtags _as_ categories it seems. Oct 30 09:15:10 So not abusing the section part but using debtags to replace that. Oct 30 09:15:21 Are debtags being used anywhere interesting currently? Oct 30 09:15:21 So functionality would be the same. Oct 30 09:15:32 X-Fade: So you can have less precise categories and the same app show up in wherever the app author wants, to cater for all cases? Seems like it'd encourage lazier categorisation to me; and you still have the issue of which tags to define ;-) Oct 30 09:16:04 I still think about debtags as a good way to _describe_ a package. Oct 30 09:16:06 but it solves the problem of apps that exist across categories Oct 30 09:16:24 What happens when Boingo puts its application in all categories? :P Oct 30 09:16:33 Indeed. Oct 30 09:16:34 GeneralAntilles, file a bug :D Oct 30 09:16:44 GeneralAntilles: We would ban it in AM ? :) Oct 30 09:16:51 johnx: No, it's a cop out for when you can't define the categories properly. Oct 30 09:17:19 Jaffa, fine. where do you put a network-enabled dictionary? What about an educational game? Oct 30 09:17:20 For example, a library doesn't buy 10 copies of a book and put it in different parts of the library so you can find it. Oct 30 09:17:25 Or somebody figures "my solitaire game uses the network for high scores, so it should go in networking" Oct 30 09:17:48 Dictionary goes in Utilities Oct 30 09:17:56 Educational game goes in education. Oct 30 09:18:05 Next set of hard-to-file packages? :P Oct 30 09:18:22 Jaffa, yeah, but a bookstore does. ;) Oct 30 09:18:38 An application has one primary purpose. What GeneralAntilles said for your examples. Oct 30 09:18:47 Though, admittedly, that's mostly sales tables and endcaps. ;) Oct 30 09:18:47 A solitaire game using the network is still a game. Oct 30 09:18:58 GeneralAntilles, ok, so *you* know why they go there. but the point is to give the user as many ways to get to what they want as possible Oct 30 09:19:19 johnx: So let's not have categories at all! Oct 30 09:19:31 * GeneralAntilles so totally would go for filing bugs in multiple categories, though. Oct 30 09:19:44 Unfortunately you can't have a single object exist in multiple places. :( Oct 30 09:19:56 Jaffa, wait, that's where we are now. :P Oct 30 09:20:03 GeneralAntilles: oh, yes :-) Oct 30 09:20:06 Jaffa, let's throw away alphabetical sorting too :P Oct 30 09:20:26 for a nice example of a debtags interface, give this a shot: http://debtags.alioth.debian.org/cloud/ Oct 30 09:20:58 Good lord Oct 30 09:21:00 "junior" Oct 30 09:21:05 "works-with-format"? Oct 30 09:21:07 johnx: Try to find firefox there ;) Oct 30 09:21:11 "x11" Oct 30 09:21:12 Which has "TODO arcade games-gl meta special:not-applicable" Oct 30 09:21:13 also a browse by category and browse by debtag would be nice :) Oct 30 09:22:06 X-Fade, hence "mutliple ways to search." if you know "I'm looking for firefox" why don't you type "firefox" into the search bar? Oct 30 09:22:23 X-Fade: Yay! I found it: network > client > web > browser > firefox. Oct 30 09:22:47 Hrm Oct 30 09:22:58 Actually, searching isn't a bad way to reduce the reliance on categories Oct 30 09:23:01 johnx: Sure, but it goes to show that finding things this ways isn't easy either. No casual browsing here. Oct 30 09:23:22 OK, what about this, we have a search button in the toolbar, but it sucks UI-wise Oct 30 09:23:25 GeneralAntilles: Combined with at 'What's new' view. Oct 30 09:23:36 GeneralAntilles: And Popular applications. Oct 30 09:23:39 What about taking a page out of MicroB's book and using the search button to toggle a search bar? Oct 30 09:23:46 That would act as a filter. Oct 30 09:23:52 GeneralAntilles++ Oct 30 09:24:02 X-Fade, yeah, I really want to see Downloads integration happen. Oct 30 09:24:07 though this is quickly turning into design by committee Oct 30 09:24:15 GeneralAntilles: That still doesn't solve: What cool applications are there for me to install. Oct 30 09:24:18 GeneralAntilles: that's exactly what a searhc button is supposed to do in Maemo! Oct 30 09:24:28 Ha Oct 30 09:24:37 GeneralAntilles: Search only works if you look for a specific app. Oct 30 09:25:01 Tagging is really more useful when combined with search rather than browsing. Oct 30 09:25:28 * GeneralAntilles wonders about Tracker integration. Oct 30 09:26:39 And I get the feeling mvo's not got the time to put into developing a UI, so a complex UI which is wildly different from anything current will require more work by the community Oct 30 09:27:07 * X-Fade would like to talk to the Nokia GUI guys too. Oct 30 09:27:20 Get them on board and discuss options. Oct 30 09:27:37 Quim seems to be working on that. Oct 30 09:29:32 I wonder what the Tracker interface will end up looking like in Fremantle Oct 30 09:30:00 GeneralAntilles: I guess more things will become clear in December. Oct 30 09:30:02 debtags could actually be a good way to power Tracker-based searches Oct 30 09:30:41 Type in "browser" and Minefield, Fennec, MicroB, Tear and Epiphany pop up. Oct 30 09:30:51 I guess stuff like emelfm2, too. Oct 30 09:32:14 johnx, I'm hoping the unified direction will be from Nokia. Oct 30 09:32:32 johnx, we're just playing around with different ideas, they can pick up and integrate the good ones. Oct 30 09:35:17 yeah, why the whole categories thing, when you can browse around in a tag cloud? :P Oct 30 09:35:23 Yes, if there was a single tracker interface that could be interesting Oct 30 09:35:23 and search in it too Oct 30 09:47:47 Browsing in tag clouds sucks. Oct 30 09:48:19 and there you have it! the definitive answer from GeneralAntilles. :P Oct 30 09:49:05 curious tablet im sitting here with.. it's not touch-screen but pen-touch screen Oct 30 09:49:33 Stskeeps, like the Wacom tablets? Oct 30 09:49:37 sounds right. a lot of tablets are still that way Oct 30 09:49:42 johnx, well, look at the debtag web interface you linked. . . . Oct 30 09:49:57 I did. It's very beta admittedly Oct 30 09:50:04 It's godawful Oct 30 09:50:08 GeneralAntilles: never actually tried a wacom tablet, but it's a xp machine where it's only touchable with the pen from the system Oct 30 09:50:12 this would be a lot easier to do with a smaller amount of apps and better tags Oct 30 09:50:20 That said, those sort of tags would be QUITE useful combined with a search bar Oct 30 09:50:51 Anybody got any cool mockups for the main view I could look at? Oct 30 09:51:11 Stskeeps, yup, active digitizer. it's the same tech as the wacom tablets Oct 30 09:52:05 does apple hold patents on Next-style column-based file manager? is that why no one uses it? Oct 30 09:52:07 * GeneralAntilles is picturing a main view with a global search box and buttons for "New", "Popular" and maybe "Stars" Oct 30 09:52:12 Or "Best rated" Oct 30 09:52:50 how about four buttons then: new, popular, stars and browse Oct 30 09:53:06 What about updates and installed applications? Oct 30 09:55:04 I don't mind the current top-level screen Oct 30 09:55:43 Yeah, but we need to add more buttons for more features Oct 30 09:56:22 And make it look less ugly ;) Although that might be fixed by the theme etc. Oct 30 09:57:14 Seems to me like the $TABLET_NAME and "Web catalog" labels are somewhat superfluous. Oct 30 09:57:56 GeneralAntilles: Especially since it says Nokia N800 on my N810, because I always forwarded my backups ;) Oct 30 10:01:15 w00t, http://repository.maemo.org going at world record breaking speeds again... Oct 30 10:02:56 it sure is Oct 30 10:03:17 usually it is working fast and maemo.org website is laggign Oct 30 10:05:29 Actually, hrm. Oct 30 10:05:43 Other than the "refresh repositories" button, is there any reason to have the toolbar on the main view? Oct 30 10:06:44 That's a good point actually, it could be removed. mvo makes the repository refresh button on the main view both disabled in red pill & blue pill Oct 30 10:33:16 morning Oct 30 10:35:02 hola Oct 30 10:35:16 lardman: did you get the treeview tutorial url ? Oct 30 10:38:14 melmoth: yes thanks, nice tutorial Oct 30 10:39:20 melmoth: I've "ported" a later version of metromap, is very pretty and seems to work ok Oct 30 10:39:55 not sure where the timing data comes from though Oct 30 10:41:17 http://www.legacyoflies.com/devuploads/general_antilles/main-view-mockup.png http://www.legacyoflies.com/devuploads/general_antilles/tag-search-mockup.png Oct 30 10:42:13 find bar is nice Oct 30 10:42:22 does the second one differ from the standard? Oct 30 10:42:39 I'd also like to see extra columns for popularity, etc. in there Oct 30 10:42:46 and age too Oct 30 10:43:07 ah, it has descriptions does it, does normal ham do that? Oct 30 10:43:18 lardman: Age? Oct 30 10:43:27 how old the app is Oct 30 10:43:35 when it was submitted Oct 30 10:43:42 lardman: from first release or that version? Oct 30 10:43:48 that version Oct 30 10:44:12 not very important, just that we know "What's New" on the previous page Oct 30 10:44:28 lardman, the find is normally a dialog Oct 30 10:44:37 and the search kinda sucks Oct 30 10:44:42 GeneralAntilles: yep, the bar is nicer Oct 30 10:44:42 lardman: That is not known from the repository. Although we detect it in 'fresh' on /downloads/ Oct 30 10:44:52 X-Fade: ok, no worries Oct 30 10:45:10 This search I'd like to see tied to Tracker and debtags. Oct 30 10:45:17