**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Mon Nov 17 02:59:57 2008
Nov 17 07:13:22 <Pavlov> hrm, how did my scratchbox setup go from working to not
Nov 17 07:17:51 <Meiz_n810> is there a better script to place ln -s /dev/fb0 /dev/fb than rc.local?
Nov 17 07:18:16 <Pavlov> hrm
Nov 17 07:18:24 <Pavlov> did some recent ubuntu update screw up scratchbox?
Nov 17 07:18:28 <Pavlov> (8.04?)
Nov 17 07:20:48 <Stskeeps> Meiz_n810: we are looking into a udev conf
Nov 17 07:22:49 <Meiz_n810> ok
Nov 17 07:23:20 <Meiz_n810> midori seems to take a lot space..
Nov 17 07:24:11 <Meiz_n810> 23mb uncompressed
Nov 17 07:24:38 <Stskeeps> editing the script or?
Nov 17 07:25:31 <Meiz_n810> midori takes 23 mb
Nov 17 07:32:06 <Meiz_n810> StsN800: can i add ln -s to the beginning of /etc/init.d/udev?
Nov 17 07:33:35 <StsN800> no, sort out how /etc/udev works
Nov 17 07:33:43 <Meiz_n810> ok
Nov 17 07:40:12 <StsN800> Meiz_n810, when you get bored look into how powerlaunch works (powerlaunch.garage.maemo.org), looking at their docs and scm on project page
Nov 17 07:41:05 <Meiz_n810> StsN800: I am at school so i AM bored =P
Nov 17 07:41:33 <StsN800> it will probably be next step we take (its basically a daemon configurable to react to everything on a tablet
Nov 17 07:41:45 <Meiz_n810> ok
Nov 17 07:42:38 <StsN800> and just be sure to pass lukio(?) with good grades so you can start uni eventually and make $$
Nov 17 07:42:42 <StsN800> :P
Nov 17 07:43:29 <Meiz_n810> yep
Nov 17 07:43:30 <Meiz_n810> :)
Nov 17 08:31:20 <StsN800> school sucks.
Nov 17 08:32:02 <StsN800> im sitting in a adhoc made group and noone prepared except me. and i need coffee
Nov 17 08:33:23 <Veggen> StsN800: I have news for you: It doesn't necessarily get much better after graduating and starting to work, either :)
Nov 17 08:33:48 <Veggen> So that group is probably a very realistic preparation for work.
Nov 17 08:43:22 <StsN800> true, i should enjoy being able to shout at people while i can
Nov 17 08:50:14 <Meiz_n810> what i should do with powerlaunch?
Nov 17 08:50:59 <StsN800> look at data/ in the source on project page and docs on site
Nov 17 08:51:21 <StsN800> and try to get an understanding of it
Nov 17 08:52:49 <Meiz_n810> system.conf seems to contain many dbus commands about power management...
Nov 17 08:53:20 <Meiz_n810> and also offline-mode etc..
Nov 17 08:54:16 <StsN800> yeah, its a script language
Nov 17 08:54:56 <StsN800> it does very little on its own
Nov 17 08:55:39 <Jaffa> Morning, all
Nov 17 08:55:46 <X-Fade> Hi..
Nov 17 08:59:38 <bergie> http://lists.maemo.org/pipermail/maemo-community/2008-November/001287.html
Nov 17 09:09:53 <prak> what would you recommend for viewing videos on n810?
Nov 17 09:09:59 <prak> in terms of video players?
Nov 17 09:13:33 <mavhc> mplayer for anything not h264, built in media player for h264
Nov 17 09:13:58 <prak> what about wmv files?
Nov 17 09:14:30 <mavhc> mplayer
Nov 17 09:14:39 <prak> ic
Nov 17 09:14:51 <prak> i have trouble fast forwarding with mplayer though
Nov 17 09:15:14 <mavhc> using the dpad?
Nov 17 09:15:53 <prak> the dpad on the left side of the keypad?
Nov 17 09:16:11 <mavhc> yes
Nov 17 09:16:30 <mavhc> left/right 15 seconds, up/down 1 min
Nov 17 09:16:44 <prak> ic
Nov 17 09:17:00 <prak> i wasn't aware that i can fast forward using up/down too
Nov 17 09:17:18 <mavhc> also menu key brings up a 15 min option
Nov 17 09:17:25 <mavhc> and you can make your own config file
Nov 17 09:17:31 <prak> ok
Nov 17 09:18:12 <prak> thanks for your help mavhc
Nov 17 09:18:31 <mavhc> :-)
Nov 17 09:58:51 * StsN800 waits for flash size count with h-i-m on top
Nov 17 09:59:35 * johnx tries to make h-i-m do actually do anything
Nov 17 09:59:52 <StsN800> hehe, morning
Nov 17 09:59:54 <lardman> h-i-m?
Nov 17 10:00:03 * aquatix wonders what h-i-m is too
Nov 17 10:00:12 <lardman> not h-a-m by chance?
Nov 17 10:00:13 <StsN800> hildon input method
Nov 17 10:00:17 <lardman> ah
Nov 17 10:00:17 <aquatix> oh
Nov 17 10:00:24 <lardman> another new acronym to learn ;)
Nov 17 10:00:30 * aquatix has a real life keyboard ;)
Nov 17 10:00:45 <StsN800> johnx, i gave some info to qole at some point on itt
Nov 17 10:00:56 <johnx> ah, I remember that post
Nov 17 10:01:00 <johnx> I'll look at that
Nov 17 10:04:44 <StsN800> professor: "that group of people were the ones obama won from bush"
Nov 17 10:05:00 <StsN800> classes++
Nov 17 10:05:25 <johnx> "...in a high stakes game of poker."
Nov 17 10:06:23 <StsN800> johnx, 123.8 mb jffs image
Nov 17 10:07:15 <StsN800> with him, himf and himpe and libconic
Nov 17 10:07:21 <johnx> not too bad
Nov 17 10:07:43 <johnx> I wonder about libconic though
Nov 17 10:08:00 <StsN800> libconic is a dbus wrapper
Nov 17 10:08:21 <johnx> so we could attach the backend to network-manager?
Nov 17 10:09:13 <StsN800> aye
Nov 17 10:11:49 <StsN800> johnx, installer updated
Nov 17 10:12:11 <johnx> ah. maemo-launcher wants hildon-initscripts too
Nov 17 10:12:24 <johnx> this might be the challenging part
Nov 17 10:28:42 <StsN800> johnx, recompile without it and see if m-l starts up as a daemon or something
Nov 17 10:29:24 <johnx> I think it might just want hundreds of env variables, but I'll see
Nov 17 10:36:37 <StsN800> we should look into init script/dm in image to start hildon too
Nov 17 10:37:21 <johnx> how about something that just runs X and X can start the default session
Nov 17 10:37:37 <StsN800> startx?
Nov 17 10:37:44 <johnx> yeah
Nov 17 10:37:57 <StsN800> sure
Nov 17 10:38:06 <johnx> thinking out loud-> maybe have hildon-desktop provide x-window-manager?
Nov 17 10:38:23 <StsN800> x-session-manager
Nov 17 10:38:33 <StsN800> or something
Nov 17 10:38:39 <johnx> you're right, probably better
Nov 17 10:43:34 <StsN800> i'll play with mce/systemui using powerlaunch probably
Nov 17 10:44:06 <StsN800> (is mce a system or session daemon?
Nov 17 10:44:46 <johnx> I would say system, it's in /sbin/mce
Nov 17 10:44:54 <StsN800> k
Nov 17 10:47:08 <robtaylor> johnx: yeah, mce is on the system bus, com.nokia.mce
Nov 17 10:47:35 <johnx> robtaylor, thanks :)
Nov 17 10:47:44 <robtaylor> johnx: np
Nov 17 10:52:17 * StsN800 wonders what place mce/dsme will have once ohm is in place
Nov 17 10:52:49 <StsN800> for now i guess we take diablo structure for now
Nov 17 10:54:40 <johnx> I guess so. doesn't seem worth getting too in-depth in that area since ohm is right around the corner
Nov 17 10:55:19 <StsN800> k
Nov 17 10:55:27 <johnx> as always: your call
Nov 17 10:55:40 <StsN800> we will see
Nov 17 11:00:00 <johnx> at least the wrongness of session daemons starting from init.d is acknowledged :)
Nov 17 11:08:17 <RST38h> Moo.
Nov 17 11:08:56 <johnx> m00f
Nov 17 11:09:26 <RST38h> http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y226/WJGENT4/EatMoreChicken.jpg
Nov 17 11:09:52 <johnx> heh, saw those same cows in the first all your base video
Nov 17 11:10:16 * RST38h saw them on a roadside ad in MD first
Nov 17 11:10:43 <RST38h> They had a huge cow puppet "painting" the message at the white ad canvas
Nov 17 11:28:39 <Meiz_n810> does the powerlaunch support n810?
Nov 17 11:29:00 <Meiz_n810> the m-r one?
Nov 17 11:31:21 <StsN800> think we might strip it down for n810
Nov 17 11:31:23 <StsN800> er
Nov 17 11:31:27 <StsN800> m-r
Nov 17 11:32:59 <StsN800> new powerlaunch in extras should be working for n810
Nov 17 11:33:30 <Meiz_n810> does the one in mrrepo workxå
Nov 17 11:33:33 <Meiz_n810> *?
Nov 17 11:51:43 * johnx sighs
Nov 17 11:51:55 <johnx> hildon-input-method is crashing with an X error
Nov 17 12:16:49 <ccooke> Hmm.
Nov 17 12:17:08 <ccooke> Seems I accidentally turned off the icd2 service while playing with the services control panel
Nov 17 12:17:16 <ccooke> That was interesting :-)
Nov 17 12:17:36 <ccooke> But not as interesting as accidentally touching the "running" button next to the X server entry
Nov 17 12:18:46 <StsN800> hehe
Nov 17 12:59:07 <Ramzeska> hello world
Nov 17 12:59:10 <RST38h> shit, maemo.org is dead again =(
Nov 17 12:59:31 <johnx> hi
Nov 17 12:59:39 <RST38h> ~curse maemo.org, Midgard, and 770s it is running on
Nov 17 12:59:40 <infobot> May you be reincarnated as a Windows XP administrator, maemo.org, Midgard, and 770s it is running on !
Nov 17 13:00:05 <baddu> hello, is there any way to use device file remotely ? nfs seems not be an option
Nov 17 13:01:44 <RST38h> BTW, http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/11/17/dziuba_netbooks_and_smartphones/
Nov 17 13:01:45 <johnx> not that I've heard of recently. what exactly are you trying to do?
Nov 17 13:01:59 <RST38h> baddu: You can use scp over WiFi
Nov 17 13:02:18 <RST38h> or bluetooth object exchange if you are close enough
Nov 17 13:02:26 <baddu> the plan was to use tv-card of a linux pc with n800
Nov 17 13:02:43 <johnx> you should probably do this at a higher level than direct device access
Nov 17 13:03:14 <GAN800> RST38h, software upgrade. . . .
Nov 17 13:03:15 <johnx> RST38h, looks like trolling rather than useful criticism :/
Nov 17 13:03:34 <GAN800> and are the Chick-fil-A cows some kind of novelty?
Nov 17 13:04:19 <baddu> johnx: do you know that there is a project or something for that? i suppose using ssh and player of the pc would be too heavy
Nov 17 13:04:31 <johnx> baddu, maybe look at a mythtv client, or mediaserv
Nov 17 13:05:08 <johnx> if you're already using mythtv (or something similar) things are lot simpler
Nov 17 13:05:17 <baddu> i guess it would work nicely if nfs would have exported device files
Nov 17 13:05:27 <johnx> probably not
Nov 17 13:05:37 <baddu> ok, i believe you :)
Nov 17 13:05:53 <GAN800> lol, I love it when websites scroll a giant advertisement right into the middle of your window from somewhere offscreen
Nov 17 13:05:56 <johnx> even if it worked the way you think it would, the latency would be pretty incredible
Nov 17 13:06:15 <baddu> it doesn't support anwyay
Nov 17 13:06:46 <Guysoft42> hey, is there a way to start up a nokia n810 in mute?
Nov 17 13:06:48 <baddu> i don't use anything yet, i checked that maemo myth but it was pretty immature
Nov 17 13:07:20 <baddu> i compiled dvb support to mplayer .. probably i could start with that
Nov 17 13:07:32 <GAN800> Somebody should link Peter to the dozens of old tablet name threads.
Nov 17 13:07:59 <johnx> well, if you install mythtv on the machine with the TV card and just use the web based UI to set which show to record you can just open the recorded file from the server
Nov 17 13:08:38 <oilinki> baddu: you have an pc with dvb card and wish to see the show live?
Nov 17 13:09:08 <baddu> yeah i at least dream to see the live broadcast instead of recorded
Nov 17 13:09:55 <oilinki> would the vlc streaming option be any help?
Nov 17 13:10:35 <baddu> i don't know much about that.. do you know if it wuold? :)
Nov 17 13:11:18 <baddu> s/wuold/would/
Nov 17 13:11:19 <infobot> baddu meant: i don't know much about that.. do you know if it would? :)
Nov 17 13:11:45 <oilinki> well, I tried it with sopcast at some point... I got an picture, but n810 could not handle the feed very well.  try it out, if it would suit for you.
Nov 17 13:12:07 <baddu> i probably do that , thanks
Nov 17 13:13:03 <oilinki> hopefully it would work for you.
Nov 17 13:13:46 <Stskeeps> RST38h: there was an announcement out earlier
Nov 17 13:14:06 <GAN800> myhava.com is nice if you don't mind spending a little extra
Nov 17 13:17:44 <RST38h> johnx: I wouldn't take it as trolling right away
Nov 17 13:17:53 <RST38h> Sts,GAN: What are you talking about guys?
Nov 17 13:18:00 <RST38h> Sts,GAN: Something happened?
Nov 17 13:18:13 <GAN800> Check maemo-community. :)
Nov 17 13:18:18 <RST38h> If you mean maemo.org, it seems to be in the permanent upgrade mode lately =)
Nov 17 13:18:43 <johnx> http://lists.maemo.org/pipermail/maemo-community/2008-November/001287.html
Nov 17 13:18:45 <johnx> I assume
Nov 17 13:18:51 <RST38h> checking
Nov 17 13:19:08 <RST38h> johnx: As to the article, the author does make a valid point
Nov 17 13:19:21 <RST38h> johnx: Once it looks like a laptop, people expect it to work like a laptop
Nov 17 13:19:36 <johnx> in an unnecessarily trollish tone to get people kvetching about it
Nov 17 13:20:17 <RST38h> johnx: It comes from TheRegister - they always write this way
Nov 17 13:20:31 <GAN800> Welcome to tech journalism. ;)
Nov 17 13:20:34 <johnx> which is why I rarely bother even reading them
Nov 17 13:20:39 <RST38h> They are the original BOFHs, johnx =)
Nov 17 13:20:40 <johnx> welcome to pissing off your readers :)
Nov 17 13:20:55 <johnx> nah, the BOFH is the original BOFH. accept no substitute
Nov 17 13:20:56 <RST38h> which is why I am only reading them :)
Nov 17 13:21:40 <RST38h> better be offended every now and then than deal with soft-pedaling hacks
Nov 17 13:22:01 <johnx> "better to offend with substance, than style"
Nov 17 13:22:10 <johnx> to paraphrase
Nov 17 13:22:43 <RST38h> They are a bunch of cynical snobbish brits, whaddayawant? After all, it is what makes them different from 99% other "tech journalists"
Nov 17 13:22:59 <johnx> and as expected it has nothing new except the word "weaktop"
Nov 17 13:23:17 <RST38h> true, this stuff has been known for quite a while now
Nov 17 13:25:11 <johnx> but really, most people seem to spend most of their time in a browser and some in an office suite
Nov 17 13:26:13 <RST38h> johnx: the problem is that most people seem to use their computers for other things as well, every now and then
Nov 17 13:26:36 <RST38h> THAT is what kills Linux on those "ne-tops" :)
Nov 17 13:26:53 <johnx> well the linux distro on most of them is the weak point
Nov 17 13:27:09 <johnx> shipping a really vanilla ubuntu would be a monumental step forward
Nov 17 13:27:13 <RST38h> yes, they sell much better with XP :)
Nov 17 13:27:49 <RST38h> MSI top honcho quoted return rates being 3 times higher for Linux running nettops (same make and model)
Nov 17 13:28:31 <johnx> well there are more factors at work than linux vs windows
Nov 17 13:28:37 <GAN800> ^
Nov 17 13:29:00 <RST38h> johnx: Another factor is the CPU speed
Nov 17 13:29:13 <GAN800> The tablet form-factor stuff has the advantage of not being remotely laptop-like
Nov 17 13:29:29 <RST38h> GAN: exactly.
Nov 17 13:29:43 <GAN800> people don't generally care if their cellphones have Office
Nov 17 13:29:43 <RST38h> smae with smartphones
Nov 17 13:29:51 <johnx> I can agree with that overall. People have problems dealing with small changes more than large changes
Nov 17 13:30:12 <johnx> the problem is fundamental inflexibility in people's minds :)
Nov 17 13:30:17 <RST38h> johnx: presenting people with something that looks familiar but is different freaks them out
Nov 17 13:30:38 <GAN800> I'd wonder if pushing a non-Windows-esque UI for Linux on netbooks would help.
Nov 17 13:30:45 <errordeveloper> hey ..
Nov 17 13:30:54 <errordeveloper> i'm trying to figure out a trick
Nov 17 13:30:54 <RST38h> GAN: So far it does not
Nov 17 13:31:18 <errordeveloper> so the files put onto a memory card when connected via usb
Nov 17 13:31:35 <GAN800> RST38h, well, also one that doesn't suck. But I guess those don't materialize out of thin air.
Nov 17 13:31:39 <errordeveloper> would appear to mamemo as they got uid=29999
Nov 17 13:32:03 <errordeveloper> not the id of the user who put the files from the linux box
Nov 17 13:32:10 <johnx> RST38h, well so far netbook manufacturers have assumed that having some lone programmer put a weeks into customizing a linux distro rather than hiring someone who knows what the hell they're doing is a good idea
Nov 17 13:32:17 <RST38h> GAN: Mimicking Windoze seems to be a better marketing move at the moment
Nov 17 13:32:23 <errordeveloper> so i'd like to add something to fstab of the linux machine
Nov 17 13:32:35 <RST38h> GAN: Both ASUS and MSI have non-Windoze Linux UIs
Nov 17 13:32:55 <RST38h> johnx: That is normal given that theu are Chinese
Nov 17 13:33:13 <johnx> RST38h, wow...very classy stereotyping
Nov 17 13:33:18 <RST38h> johnx: It is much cheaper and corresponds to their "we can do it ourselves" mentality
Nov 17 13:33:29 <RST38h> johnx: Oh, I know what I am talking about.
Nov 17 13:33:56 <RST38h> johnx: But just wait and see - the next wave will either switch to XP or use a better desktop
Nov 17 13:33:59 <johnx> anyways, asus actually is a bad example since they did a pretty good job with their linux version
Nov 17 13:34:01 <GAN800> johnx, little reactionary there? :P
Nov 17 13:34:50 <johnx> errordeveloper, is this with the card mounted as vfat or ext2/3?
Nov 17 13:35:03 <johnx> GAN800, I don't react well to sweeping statements like that
Nov 17 13:35:44 <RST38h> johnx: Biases exist for a reason
Nov 17 13:35:47 <johnx> anyways, hp is doing their own thing too
Nov 17 13:36:07 <johnx> they do look to be doing a better job of it though.
Nov 17 13:36:13 <RST38h> johnx: As long as you do not persist in your bias, it will help rather than harm
Nov 17 13:36:32 <RST38h> HP is much more expensive though, almostlike a real computer
Nov 17 13:37:20 <johnx> $380 or so with linux?
Nov 17 13:37:55 <RST38h> Ah it is 380 now?
Nov 17 13:37:59 <RST38h> Cool
Nov 17 13:38:05 <johnx> not now, actually january
Nov 17 13:38:13 <johnx> it appears they're taking time to get the linux stuff right
Nov 17 13:38:44 <johnx> still, I tend to dislike the "thin, slick looking shell that launches normal software" approach
Nov 17 13:38:46 * RST38h wonders whether Nokia will kill Maemo off as part of the downsizing strategy =(
Nov 17 13:39:08 <Veggen> I seem to remember the boss for Asus EEE-things saying that the return rate for Windows and Linux EEEs are in the same ballpart.
Nov 17 13:39:13 <Veggen> eh, ballpark.
Nov 17 13:39:15 <RST38h> johnx: People tried slick looking shells back in 80486 times, didn't work
Nov 17 13:39:28 <johnx> they just keep trying them though
Nov 17 13:39:42 <johnx> actually I wonder about the return rate on WinMo phones with touch-flo or similar
Nov 17 13:40:13 <johnx> it's basically a hybrid between "actually improving things" and "bait and switch"
Nov 17 13:40:44 <GAN800> RST38h, considering that they're actively hiring new people and just opened a new Maemo Software location in California, I kind of doubt it.
Nov 17 13:40:52 <RST38h> Veggen: Dunno about ASUS, here is MSI: http://gizmodo.com/5058953/linux-netbooks-are-returned-4x-more-than-win-xp-versions-says-msi
Nov 17 13:41:12 <RST38h> GAN: All it takes is a single executive decision =(
Nov 17 13:41:28 <johnx> the difference being that msi did a crap job on their linux distro and asus actually put work into it
Nov 17 13:41:45 <RST38h> GAN: I kinda like Symbian but I would rather like to see Nokia switch to Maemo
Nov 17 13:42:15 <RST38h> johnx: I have seen MSI in a local store - their menu isn't much worse or better than ASUS'
Nov 17 13:42:42 <GAN800> Maemo on cellphones make no sense to me.
Nov 17 13:42:47 <johnx> exactly, the thin shell looks ok, but apparently it has problems beneath it, whereas the eee is pretty consistent
Nov 17 13:42:56 <RST38h> GAN: Why?
Nov 17 13:43:29 <GAN800> It just isn't designed for making and receiving calls on a small screen.
Nov 17 13:44:01 <GAN800> Besides, I'd never accept this kind of reliability from my cellphone. ;)
Nov 17 13:44:30 <RST38h> GAN: You are talking about UI rather than the system. I don't think porting S60 to Maemo will be THAT bad
Nov 17 13:44:46 <johnx> maemo is the UI :)
Nov 17 13:44:47 <RST38h> They already ported S90 UI *and* they managed to port S60 to Java (S40)
Nov 17 13:44:51 <GAN800> What is Maemo without the ui, though.
Nov 17 13:44:53 <johnx> beneath it it's a hacked up debian 2005
Nov 17 13:45:11 <RST38h> Hey I thought everybody hated Maemo UI? =)
Nov 17 13:45:19 <GAN800> Hardly
Nov 17 13:45:38 <RST38h> johnx: Better that than the multithreaded Symbian hell
Nov 17 13:45:40 <GAN800> it has its rough edges, but works well enough overall for what it is.
Nov 17 13:45:41 <johnx> heh...it's the same people who think that a desktop UI on a handheld device is a good idea
Nov 17 13:46:12 * GAN800 shudders at the idea of shuffling windows around with a stylus
Nov 17 13:46:34 <GAN800> I'd like to see one of those people using their tablet
Nov 17 13:46:48 <johnx> eh, they just hunch over it and peck away
Nov 17 13:46:56 <GAN800> it must be some sort of front to try to look cool or something. . . .
Nov 17 13:47:05 <johnx> nah, they actually don't mind
Nov 17 13:47:11 <RST38h> GAN: Look at the Road Tycoon clone for Maemo - it makes you shuffle little windows with a stylus
Nov 17 13:47:16 <GAN800> insanity
Nov 17 13:47:17 <johnx> some people even drive frontwheel drive cars
Nov 17 13:47:21 <Veggen> RST38h: ya, but I've seen ASUS-boss saying that they are similar between Windows and Linux.
Nov 17 13:47:34 <GAN800> RST38h, eh, games are a different story.
Nov 17 13:47:44 <GAN800> johnx, :(((
Nov 17 13:47:48 <RST38h> Veggen: Good for them then, although I would like to hear a few more manufacturers on this
Nov 17 13:48:10 <RST38h> johnx: With auto gearshift, no doubt?
Nov 17 13:48:16 <johnx> GAN800, had to take a swing at you. :D my point being that some people can tolerate stuff that just drives others crazy
Nov 17 13:48:29 <Veggen> RST38h: ..so my point was that probably a bad Linux-install made by people not knowing what they are doing is worse than Windows, but doing it properly, things are different.
Nov 17 13:48:34 <GAN800> I had my grand awakening just after I bought my Camry
Nov 17 13:48:45 <GAN800> But at least it's a 5-speed
Nov 17 13:49:27 <Veggen> And you *will* have a lot of people that does not grasp the concept that "another OS" might not be "exactly as Windows" :)
Nov 17 13:49:43 <johnx> right, and some of the people once handed a desktop UI on a handheld will wake up and say "this sucks, it isn't at all what I wanted."
Nov 17 13:49:55 <johnx> and some will tolerate it for some reason the rest of us can't fathom
Nov 17 13:50:18 <johnx> Veggen, the problem is thar marketing willfully contributes to that confusion
Nov 17 13:50:28 <Veggen> johnx: mm, true.
Nov 17 13:51:28 * GAN800 tires of having to pay attention to Jaiku because of those two m-r assholes. . . .
Nov 17 13:52:52 <johnx> GAN800, actually this is working pretty well
Nov 17 13:53:00 <johnx> the jaiku setup I mean
Nov 17 13:53:19 <johnx> it makes me a lot more willing to document when it's a really short form
Nov 17 13:53:40 * GAN800 demands IRC msgs custom-tailored to my experience-level. 
Nov 17 13:53:50 <johnx> just subscribe to it as RSS
Nov 17 13:54:00 <johnx> i mean, you use a feed reader, right?
Nov 17 13:54:04 <GAN800> I don't do RSS. :p
Nov 17 13:54:25 <johnx> do you want us to send up smoke signals? wave flags?
Nov 17 13:54:28 <johnx> :D
Nov 17 13:54:30 <GAN800> I've tried many times, but they all just piss me off.
Nov 17 13:54:47 <johnx> I'd think the Mac would have a really slick one
Nov 17 13:54:56 <GAN800> Imma setup an intercom in my living room
Nov 17 13:55:16 <GAN800> I suspect they are slick, but RSS totally doesn't work for me.
Nov 17 13:55:38 <johnx> integrate with your mail reader maybe?
Nov 17 13:55:49 <RST38h> GAN: Try Google reader
Nov 17 13:55:56 <GAN800> *squawk*Uh, we're uploading the new hildon-desktop build now . . . over and out.
Nov 17 13:56:02 <RST38h> GAN: Btw, its iPhone version works perfectly on tablets
Nov 17 13:56:09 <GAN800> johnx, tried that, too.
Nov 17 13:57:04 * RST38h imagines what will happen when Nokia finally disables page fitting option in MicroB...
Nov 17 13:57:08 <johnx> GAN800, so wait a squawk and spoken message is preferable? O_o
Nov 17 13:57:26 <GAN800> Absolutely nothing because it sucks and nobody uses it?
Nov 17 13:57:27 <johnx> RST38h, it will stop slowing down and dying as often?
Nov 17 13:57:29 <RST38h> Google Reader and lots of other pages will suddenly look like shit
Nov 17 13:57:55 <RST38h> johnx: well, I don't think it will stop doing that (for other reasons)
Nov 17 13:58:06 <johnx> ahaha
Nov 17 13:58:13 <GAN800> johnx, as long as I don't have to actively search them out. :P
Nov 17 13:58:32 <RST38h> But there is a bunch of often used web sites (like the Reader) that will suddenly get ugly scrollbars
Nov 17 13:58:46 <RST38h> Especially when zoomed
Nov 17 13:58:50 * GAN800 dies of cold.
Nov 17 13:59:24 <RST38h> Maybe a "fit text for this site" option is required, I dunno
Nov 17 14:00:38 <johnx> a little per site css is often a great fix
Nov 17 14:00:39 <GeneralAntilles> Well, RST38h, the good news is that since MicroB is 100% open in Fremantle, you'll be able to implement it yourself (or coerce somebody else into implementing it).
Nov 17 14:01:48 <GeneralAntilles> Woo, Harmattan will support NTP and GPS-sync.
Nov 17 14:02:05 <johnx> uhm...that's *how many years out*?!
Nov 17 14:02:17 <GeneralAntilles> Depends if it's 5.1 or 6.0
Nov 17 14:02:43 <RST38h> Hehe
Nov 17 14:03:07 <RST38h> GAN: I would still suggest leaving it in (maybe inaccessible from the top menu)
Nov 17 14:03:24 <GeneralAntilles> RST38h, in its current form, it just hurts users.
Nov 17 14:03:43 <GeneralAntilles> Trust me, I've run a LOT of interference with them. :)
Nov 17 14:03:54 <GeneralAntilles> Feck, it's 58°F in here.
Nov 17 14:04:30 <solarion> GeneralAntilles: that's happy computers
Nov 17 14:04:59 <GeneralAntilles> CPU temp finally dipped under 60°C
Nov 17 14:05:26 <johnx> is that on the G5?
Nov 17 14:05:35 <solarion> it's good to have a big bath to sink your heat into
Nov 17 14:05:35 <GeneralAntilles> Yeah
Nov 17 14:05:42 <johnx> CPU temp is a pleasent 33C here
Nov 17 14:05:49 <RST38h> PentiumIV at 2.4GHz will heat up this much
Nov 17 14:05:52 <GeneralAntilles> It runs in the 70s usually
Nov 17 14:05:59 <RST38h> especially if you do not cool it well
Nov 17 14:06:02 <GeneralAntilles> Probably the hottest computer Apple has every manufactured.
Nov 17 14:06:08 * solarion wonders if the eee's do thermal info
Nov 17 14:06:17 <johnx> solarion, acpi -t
Nov 17 14:06:36 <solarion> ah
Nov 17 14:06:43 <GeneralAntilles> https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=3862#c4 nice
Nov 17 14:07:21 <solarion> johnx: thanks.  I'm so used to the acpi not supporting things that I've since stopped poking around
Nov 17 14:07:51 <johnx> solarion, it was just a guess, but most laptops seem to support it, even older ones
Nov 17 14:08:00 <GeneralAntilles> andre__, Sean Luke's bugs are pre-template. ;)
Nov 17 14:08:08 <solarion> johnx:sounds good
Nov 17 14:08:20 <solarion> johnx: how long have they and linux gotten along in this respect?
Nov 17 14:08:46 <solarion> perhaps it was my dell i8600
Nov 17 14:08:54 <andre__> GeneralAntilles, +1 :-D
Nov 17 14:09:06 <andre__> well, probably you're right
Nov 17 14:09:14 <GeneralAntilles> His bugs are usually pretty useless anyway.
Nov 17 14:09:28 <GeneralAntilles> Largely amounting to "x sucks"
Nov 17 14:09:32 <andre__> however, that specific one i didn't understand even after reading three times
Nov 17 14:09:52 <andre__> (if we refer to the same one - read too many bugs in the last hours)
Nov 17 14:10:14 <johnx> solarion, well I haven't had a laptop until recently, but my toshiba from 2002 (I got it used) supported acpi -t since 2007
Nov 17 14:10:20 <GeneralAntilles> https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1156
Nov 17 14:10:51 * GeneralAntilles is tired of cleaning up incompetent people's lists https://wiki.maemo.org/Talk:Why_the_closed_packages
Nov 17 14:11:26 <andre__> yepp, that one
Nov 17 14:12:16 <andre__> we should just disallow anonymous edits
Nov 17 14:12:31 <GeneralAntilles> andre__, I agree.
Nov 17 14:12:39 <GeneralAntilles> But fanoush and qgil don't seem to.
Nov 17 14:12:40 <RST38h> And track and kill all the anonymouses
Nov 17 14:12:59 <RST38h> Or at least kill one ritually and post the video onto wiki top page
Nov 17 14:13:09 <andre__> at least we'd know who exactly to blame for that posting :-P
Nov 17 14:15:22 <GeneralAntilles> I wonder if mediawiki will allow you to require logins to edit talk pages.
Nov 17 14:30:58 <Stskeeps> "Woo, Harmattan will support NTP and GPS-sync.
Nov 17 14:31:01 <Stskeeps> GeneralAntilles?
Nov 17 14:31:48 <Meizirkki> I have now Qemu set up with m-r, can i (try to) compile something for m-r?
Nov 17 14:32:46 <Stskeeps> you got it running with the n800 emulation?
Nov 17 14:34:03 <Meizirkki> no, i just have the m-r installed... http://repository.handhelds.org/hasty-armv6el-vfp/installer-arm/images/versatilepb/README
Nov 17 14:34:07 <Stskeeps> ah
Nov 17 14:34:19 <Stskeeps> so m-r on a versatilepb ;)
Nov 17 14:34:28 <GeneralAntilles> https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=2750 https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=472 Stskeeps
Nov 17 14:34:34 <Meizirkki> is that enough?
Nov 17 14:35:25 <Stskeeps> Meizirkki: you might have to get the n800 emulation running but that's more difficult, as versatilepb doesn't have that many colours in the display
Nov 17 14:35:50 <Meizirkki> okay
Nov 17 14:36:09 <Meizirkki> i will try to get the n8x0 emulation
Nov 17 14:36:09 <Stskeeps> it's good enough for compiling
Nov 17 14:36:11 <Stskeeps> i use the same
Nov 17 14:36:18 <Meizirkki> okay
Nov 17 14:36:29 <Meizirkki> then i just want to compile something :)
Nov 17 14:36:42 <Stskeeps> GeneralAntilles: and neat :P i guess they're working on harmattan plans now
Nov 17 14:37:08 <Meizirkki> What should i try to compile first?
Nov 17 14:38:33 <Stskeeps> advanced backlight
Nov 17 14:38:47 <Stskeeps> remember to add the repos
Nov 17 14:39:12 * johnx continues to fight with hildon-input-method
Nov 17 14:39:17 <GeneralAntilles> https://bugs.maemo.org/buglist.cgi?target_milestone=Harmattan
Nov 17 14:40:34 <GeneralAntilles> and for another somewhat interesting list for those not paying attention: https://bugs.maemo.org/buglist.cgi?target_milestone=Fremantle
Nov 17 14:40:50 <GeneralAntilles> Whoa
Nov 17 14:40:54 <GeneralAntilles> New midgard toolbar
Nov 17 14:41:21 <Stskeeps> johnx: what issues are you having?
Nov 17 14:41:43 <johnx> it briefly tries to show the keyboard but immediately dies with an X error
Nov 17 14:41:51 <Stskeeps> ah
Nov 17 14:42:12 <GeneralAntilles> Downloads doesn't feel quite so horrifyingly slow.
Nov 17 14:42:41 <Stskeeps> generally impressed? :P
Nov 17 14:42:51 <GeneralAntilles> Slightly less unsatisfied. ;)
Nov 17 14:43:04 <X-Fade> GeneralAntilles: We're working on it ;)
Nov 17 14:43:15 <GeneralAntilles> Although I guess this is a software-only improvement, which is more impressive.
Nov 17 14:43:53 <Stskeeps> woo, activity on #3858
Nov 17 14:44:08 <GeneralAntilles> Stskeeps, did you CC Quim or did he pick it up from the Bug Jar?
Nov 17 14:44:14 <Stskeeps> think he picked it up
Nov 17 14:44:37 <GeneralAntilles> It's interesting the activity that the Bug Jar generates.
Nov 17 14:44:47 <Stskeeps> think i should cc him on anything i find that has to do with alignment, or? :P
Nov 17 14:45:18 <GeneralAntilles> I wouldn't necessarily CC on every trivial thing, but if there's a slightly bigger issue. . . .
Nov 17 14:45:24 <Stskeeps> yeah
Nov 17 14:45:26 <GeneralAntilles> Also consider CCing Eero.
Nov 17 14:46:17 <GeneralAntilles> X-Fade, I feel somewhat inclined towards rating and commenting on applications now. :P
Nov 17 14:46:37 <Stskeeps> bug jar is weekly?
Nov 17 14:46:42 <X-Fade> GeneralAntilles: Yeah, now the html page is returned in a pretty decent time.
Nov 17 14:46:46 <GeneralAntilles> Every Monday
Nov 17 14:46:56 <X-Fade> GeneralAntilles: Next thing is setting up static.maemo.org for the static files.
Nov 17 14:47:36 <GeneralAntilles> Hrm, that reminds me. I need to harass Hava about Extras again. . . .
Nov 17 14:52:01 <RST38h> And make them commit the hardware t extras as well!
Nov 17 14:52:05 <RST38h> =)
Nov 17 14:53:03 <GeneralAntilles> RST38h, the day hardware replication is free is the day the world ends.
Nov 17 14:53:24 <Stskeeps> and the AI making it possible starts replicating itsdelf
Nov 17 14:53:24 <Stskeeps> :P
Nov 17 14:53:37 <GeneralAntilles> http://maemo.org/profile/list/category/itt_thanks/ I still can't get any of these pages to load.
Nov 17 14:54:55 <X-Fade> GeneralAntilles: Works for me.
Nov 17 14:55:46 <GeneralAntilles> Last time it was a server-side timeout after 30s
Nov 17 15:01:36 <RST38h> "Stallman Unsure Whether Firefox Is Truly Free"
Nov 17 15:01:41 <RST38h> Hehe
Nov 17 15:03:32 <GeneralAntilles> X-Fade, it's just timing out client-side now here.
Nov 17 15:03:44 <X-Fade> GeneralAntilles: Yeah, working on it.
Nov 17 15:04:01 * GeneralAntilles launches TODOs at X-Fade.
Nov 17 15:04:03 <GeneralAntilles> I'll shut up now. ;)
Nov 17 15:05:40 <disco_stu> GeneralAntilles: i was so pissed yesterday when i read the post from TokyoDan or something
Nov 17 15:06:13 <GeneralAntilles> I swear that's a tactic Microsoft's anti-Linux campaign uses
Nov 17 15:06:37 <GeneralAntilles> Something about Linux distros and Apple pushing more security updates than Microsoft makes them less secure.
Nov 17 15:07:13 <disco_stu> jerks..
Nov 17 15:10:04 <RST38h> Pushing less security updates than MS also makes you less secure
Nov 17 15:10:26 <GeneralAntilles> So you really can have your cake and eat it too? ;)
Nov 17 15:10:38 <RST38h> Obviously, as far as marketing goes
Nov 17 15:11:03 <RST38h> But Linux nuts are guilty of this too
Nov 17 15:11:21 <RST38h> Remember "BSD is fragmented while Linux is just one product" mantra?
Nov 17 15:11:49 <johnx> it turns out that there are enough idiots to go around. no need MS to keep them all
Nov 17 15:12:30 <RST38h> johnx: Amount of available sentiency is constant while population is growing.
Nov 17 15:13:09 <johnx> right, it just means we have to shift more of that sentient biomass over to the projects we're interested in
Nov 17 15:13:25 <RST38h> And use the rest for the biogas
Nov 17 15:17:45 <mavhc> the bsd vs linux war was secretly engineered by MS and apple
Nov 17 15:20:05 <RST38h> Why don't I see the Trilateral Commission on this list?
Nov 17 15:20:50 <RST38h> azerty12 moo
Nov 17 15:21:42 <qwerty12> moo FST38h
Nov 17 15:26:40 <GeneralAntilles> Is there an IRC meeting today?
Nov 17 15:30:04 <GeneralAntilles> lardman, ping.
Nov 17 15:31:06 <lardman> GeneralAntilles: pong
Nov 17 15:31:19 <GeneralAntilles> lardman, is GPLv2 acceptable for your en_GB translations? ;)
Nov 17 15:31:54 <lardman> yeah, should be ok, i was thinking of using a LGPL, just in case i wanted to sell them, but I'll make do with GPL
Nov 17 15:31:57 <lardman> ;) :D
Nov 17 15:32:10 <GeneralAntilles> lardman cornering the market on 12 English words.
Nov 17 15:32:22 <lardman> got to start somewhere hey! ;)
Nov 17 15:32:39 <GeneralAntilles> I can't believe we don't have any no_NO, pt_PT, or sv_SE people.
Nov 17 15:32:50 <lardman> did you email the list again to ask for some?
Nov 17 15:32:58 <GeneralAntilles> Not yet
Nov 17 15:33:01 <lcuk2> microsoft have been irking Glazedtransparent curtained not quite doorway cleaners for a while now
Nov 17 15:33:03 <qwerty12> I've seen quite a few, they must just be hiding :(
Nov 17 15:33:07 <GeneralAntilles> My post is still on the front page of Planet.
Nov 17 15:33:23 <lardman> I look at that very infrequently
Nov 17 15:33:33 <GeneralAntilles> lardman, too bad, you're missing out. ;)
Nov 17 15:33:38 <lardman> :)
Nov 17 15:37:22 <RST38h> General: KotCzarny has offered to do pl_PL but non-anonymous-edits rule stopped him
Nov 17 15:37:38 <Jaffa> RST38h: There are anonymous edits over HTTPS
Nov 17 15:37:49 <lardman> yeah, the remaining ones could be sent to the list of course
Nov 17 15:37:52 <RST38h> Jaffa: For unknown reason he didn't use that
Nov 17 15:38:17 <RST38h> Jaffa: I do think we need to do PL, CZ, and LT as we have people to do these anyway
Nov 17 15:39:31 <qwerty12> RST38h, Those 3 languages aren't supported officially in maemo anyway
Nov 17 15:39:47 <lardman> yeah, but we could always add support ;)
Nov 17 15:40:06 <lardman> esp as there's demand
Nov 17 15:40:07 <rm_you> I'm pretty sure I already have a script to do en_US -> en_GB translations :P
Nov 17 15:40:21 <lardman> s/z/s ??
Nov 17 15:40:21 <rm_you> not that we don't love you, lardman :P
Nov 17 15:40:30 <lardman> s/o/ou
Nov 17 15:40:32 <lardman> ;)
Nov 17 15:40:47 <qwerty12> s/gas/petrol
Nov 17 15:40:52 <rm_you> flashlight -> torch
Nov 17 15:40:54 <lardman> s/pants/trousers
Nov 17 15:41:01 <johnx> hey rm_you :D
Nov 17 15:41:03 <rm_you> apartment -> flat
Nov 17 15:41:12 <Jaffa> s/VAT/Sales tax/
Nov 17 15:41:14 <rm_you> johnx -> jouhnx :P
Nov 17 15:41:15 <qwerty12> s/hi/wag1
Nov 17 15:41:17 <RST38h> qwerty: Yes but as we have got both translators and users why not have them?
Nov 17 15:41:21 <lardman> what's gas in the US then, you know the stuff you burn to heat baked beans?
Nov 17 15:41:41 <rm_you> lardman: propane?
Nov 17 15:41:44 <RST38h>  s/aluminum/aluminium/
Nov 17 15:41:47 <rm_you> natural gas
Nov 17 15:41:51 <lardman> ah ok
Nov 17 15:41:57 <rm_you> one of those two
Nov 17 15:41:59 <johnx> often an electric stove though
Nov 17 15:42:06 <RST38h>   s/nucular/nuclear/ ;)
Nov 17 15:42:07 <qwerty12> RST38h, Sure, I think it would be great to support for more languages but I don't see the rest of the UI strings in maemo suddenly getting translated
Nov 17 15:42:11 <rm_you> propane is usually barbeque / older gas stoves
Nov 17 15:42:16 <rm_you> newer use natural gas i think
Nov 17 15:42:19 <rm_you> or else you can just choose
Nov 17 15:42:39 <RST38h> rm_you: "natural gas" is a mix of propane, butane and probably a few more
Nov 17 15:42:55 <lardman> rm_you: I thought propane was only used for boats (as it is lighter than air), while butane is the usual bottled fuel for other apps?
Nov 17 15:43:00 <RST38h> + of course a component to create the smell
Nov 17 15:43:07 <rm_you> don't think so
Nov 17 15:43:14 <disco_stu> NIT's are going to run with gas ?
Nov 17 15:43:20 <lardman> :)
Nov 17 15:43:21 <rm_you> definitely use propane tanks for my barbeque
Nov 17 15:43:26 <johnx> for small bottles it's butane
Nov 17 15:43:27 <lardman> fair enough
Nov 17 15:43:46 <johnx> for refillable ones it's propane or natural gas prolly
Nov 17 15:44:10 <rm_you> camping stoves use like... white gas
Nov 17 15:44:12 <rm_you> or something like that
Nov 17 15:44:17 <disco_stu> here we use isobutane and isopropane
Nov 17 15:44:26 <RST38h> same thing
Nov 17 15:44:33 <disco_stu> and natual gas compressed to run cars
Nov 17 15:44:34 <RST38h> slightly differently arranged molecule
Nov 17 15:44:34 <rm_you> johnx: looking forward to winter break :P
Nov 17 15:44:53 <disco_stu> cars and busses
Nov 17 15:45:05 <johnx> rm_you, yes indeed. I'm going to hijack you for some coding projects for sure :D
Nov 17 15:45:15 <RST38h> disco_stu: They make a nice BOOM! when the gas tank gets punctured =)
Nov 17 15:45:20 <rm_you> :P
Nov 17 15:45:26 <disco_stu> RST38h: not at all
Nov 17 15:45:37 <RST38h> disco_stu: They do here =)
Nov 17 15:45:45 <disco_stu> RST38h: we use nice tanks
Nov 17 15:46:19 <lardman> you mean they wait until after 8am to go boom?
Nov 17 15:46:59 <disco_stu> lardman: they dont explode at all
Nov 17 15:47:11 <RST38h> http://ukrindustrial.com/img/ua/service_catalog/21189.jpeg
Nov 17 15:47:21 <RST38h> (imagine the rest yourself)
Nov 17 15:48:06 <GeneralAntilles> They look like this over here: http://www.northarvestbean.org/html/images/061704bus.jpg
Nov 17 15:48:51 <_786soul> Im SO excited I just picked up an N810!!!
Nov 17 15:49:13 <GeneralAntilles> Don't drop it!
Nov 17 15:49:21 <johnx> hi _786soul :)
Nov 17 15:49:42 <RST38h> General: Is that the one locals call "Our pelin? =)
Nov 17 15:49:47 <_786soul> johnx: haha hello! :)
Nov 17 15:49:51 <RST38h> s/pelin/Zeppelin/
Nov 17 15:49:52 <infobot> RST38h meant: General: Is that the one locals call "Our Zeppelin? =)
Nov 17 15:49:56 <gregorovius> for all you bacon lovers: http://www.engadget.com/2008/11/17/the-bacon-iphone-sleeve-for-discerning-eyes-only/
Nov 17 15:50:08 <GeneralAntilles> RST38h, sorry, I don't follow.
Nov 17 15:50:13 <_786soul> I just flashed the device and I'm ready to start hacking away :). Extras repository here i come!
Nov 17 15:50:21 <Juhaz> mythbusters shot the crap out of a propane tank and even used tracer and phosphor rounds, no boom whatsoever. well, until they used explosives.
Nov 17 15:50:31 <RST38h> General: Zeppelin was the german guy who pioneered hydrogen filled airships
Nov 17 15:50:41 * lardman must finish watching his MythBusters DVD :)
Nov 17 15:50:49 <johnx> mmm...Zeppelin NT
Nov 17 15:50:51 <RST38h> General: The airship era officially ended when one of his ships spectacularly blew up
Nov 17 15:51:06 <lardman> well it burned really didn't it, rather than blowing up
Nov 17 15:51:10 <GeneralAntilles> A little roundabout there. . .
Nov 17 15:51:30 <GeneralAntilles> and, yes, I'm familiar with the word and the history. :)
Nov 17 15:51:42 <GeneralAntilles> The relationship to buses is somewhat specious, though. ;)
Nov 17 15:51:53 <RST38h> General: There was a CNN (?) report about propane-powered buses in some US city where locals called them "our zeppelins" with obvious connotations
Nov 17 15:52:05 <GeneralAntilles> Must've missed that one.
Nov 17 15:52:25 <RST38h> DC has also got these btw and they do smell less
Nov 17 15:52:30 <lardman> gregorovius: nice :)
Nov 17 15:52:36 <GeneralAntilles> They have them here, too.
Nov 17 15:52:43 <mavhc> RST38h: because they were painted in thermite?
Nov 17 15:52:44 <glass> they're pretty common
Nov 17 15:52:45 <GeneralAntilles> Natural gas buses are pretty common, actually.
Nov 17 15:52:48 <rm_you> johnx: off to class
Nov 17 15:52:48 <rm_you> ttyl
Nov 17 15:52:54 <johnx> later rm_you
Nov 17 15:52:54 <rm_you> GeneralAntilles too :P
Nov 17 15:52:58 <johnx> come by more often :P
Nov 17 15:53:01 <RST38h> mavhc: heh, was that true?!?
Nov 17 15:53:03 * GeneralAntilles throws rocks at rm_you.
Nov 17 15:53:04 <rm_you> I wish i had time :P
Nov 17 15:53:18 <rm_you> only here now while GF gets ready to go
Nov 17 15:53:22 <rm_you> and... leaving
Nov 17 15:53:28 * rm_you waves
Nov 17 15:53:42 <aquatix> cya
Nov 17 15:53:47 <aquatix> :)
Nov 17 15:54:04 <disco_stu> here thousands of vehicles run on gas, none of them never exploded or damaged because of the gas tank/system
Nov 17 15:54:21 <Stskeeps> johnx: still exploding h-i-m?
Nov 17 15:54:28 <mavhc> RST38h: kinda, see mythbusters
Nov 17 15:54:36 <GeneralAntilles> disco_stu, so what you're saying is they've all exploded? :P
Nov 17 15:54:58 <RST38h> mavhc: aluminium particles, eh? ;)
Nov 17 15:54:58 <mavhc> I've never seen a gas powered bus, all the ones near here must have exploded
Nov 17 15:55:16 * aquatix sees those all the time
Nov 17 15:55:25 <johnx> Stskeeps, yeah. :/ the nolauncher build option is b0rken. and I have no leads on the error. but since it's launched by maemo-invoker I don't even know how I should be attaching strace or ltrace to it
Nov 17 15:55:34 <disco_stu> s/never/ever/
Nov 17 15:55:36 <infobot> disco_stu meant: here thousands of vehicles run on gas, none of them ever exploded or damaged because of the gas tank/system
Nov 17 15:55:38 <GeneralAntilles> I like the electric buses in SF
Nov 17 15:55:58 <mavhc> we have electric trams
Nov 17 15:56:06 <mgedmin> I like how they have 'Zero Emissions Vehicle' proudly written on them
Nov 17 15:56:15 <RST38h> hehe
Nov 17 15:56:17 <GeneralAntilles> Ha
Nov 17 15:56:26 <RST38h> natural gas ones are actually closer to that
Nov 17 15:56:30 <mavhc> they don't even emit heat
Nov 17 15:56:44 <Stskeeps> johnx: so it's maemo-launcher causing problems?
Nov 17 15:56:45 <aquatix> mavhc: they don't?
Nov 17 15:56:46 <RST38h> mavhc: trams emit heat, especially when breaking
Nov 17 15:56:47 <jaska> whaaat
Nov 17 15:56:59 <aquatix> mavhc: that's virtually impossible :)
Nov 17 15:57:01 <RST38h> there is a huge resistor bank
Nov 17 15:57:09 <aquatix> RST38h: indeed
Nov 17 15:57:15 <johnx> Stskeeps, honestly, I don't know what causes the crash, but I'd like to get maemo-launcher out of the equation
Nov 17 15:57:47 * GeneralAntilles just wants pancakes.
Nov 17 15:58:22 <qwerty12> johnx, does the flag actually get passed to configure?
Nov 17 15:58:33 <aquatix> GeneralAntilles: i second that motion
Nov 17 15:58:49 <johnx> yeah, tried passing directly. it causes configure to fail in an interesting way
Nov 17 15:58:56 <johnx> time to dig into it I guess
Nov 17 16:00:11 <Stskeeps> johnx: nolauncher on him or maemo-launcher?
Nov 17 16:01:02 <RST38h> Ok, I am going to file a bug (feature request actually) about integrating Symbian-like character palette into virtual keyboard.
Nov 17 16:01:09 <RST38h> Anybody willing to support?
Nov 17 16:01:27 <qwerty12> RST38h, I'll vote. That was useful even on an N-Gage
Nov 17 16:01:46 <RST38h> the current character palette in Maemo is atrocious really
Nov 17 16:02:43 <Stskeeps> johnx: i'll work on getting startx and such in a package
Nov 17 16:03:15 <Stskeeps> or what seems sane
Nov 17 16:03:28 <johnx> startx or xinit or whatever
Nov 17 16:03:31 <Stskeeps> yeah
Nov 17 16:03:31 <GeneralAntilles> RST38h, example?
Nov 17 16:06:14 <RST38h> General: Get an S60 phone, open notepad app, press the pencil key to input a character
Nov 17 16:06:28 <RST38h> General: then press pencil key again - you will see a list of recently used characters at the top
Nov 17 16:06:29 <GeneralAntilles> RST38h, don't have one handy.
Nov 17 16:06:38 <RST38h> a moment, I will find a screenshot
Nov 17 16:06:48 <GeneralAntilles> Thanks
Nov 17 16:07:32 <RST38h> Here is a bug to vote on: https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=3866
Nov 17 16:12:42 <RST38h> General: Like this but with lately used characters n the top row: http://www.allaboutsymbian.com/features/images/predictivetext/p3.jpg
Nov 17 16:12:59 <RST38h> (this screenshot comes from an older S60 version)
Nov 17 16:20:23 <Stskeeps> johnx: btw you do root or an user account, when starting X/hildon and such?
Nov 17 16:20:34 <johnx> I run as a user
Nov 17 16:21:18 <Stskeeps> starting X "raw" or through startx or?
Nov 17 16:21:26 <johnx> just "Xorg"
Nov 17 16:21:50 <Stskeeps> k
Nov 17 16:23:58 <qwerty12> johnx, fixed. Use this configure.ac : http://pastebin.com/d1f5494fe
Nov 17 16:26:54 <johnx> qwerty12, you are awesome
Nov 17 16:28:09 <qwerty12> :)
Nov 17 16:53:27 <johnx> still not quite working, though I think it's getting farther. I'll post the error up to pastebin but don't worry about it if you don't want to, cause I'm gonna get to bed. http://pastebin.com/m7ece8dc1
Nov 17 16:54:36 <qwerty12> I've built a copy of h-i-m with maemo-launcher and without fine in sbox :/. What is your autoconf version?
Nov 17 16:55:02 <johnx> 2.61
Nov 17 16:56:05 <qwerty12> Hrm, 2.59 so I don't think that makes a difference :/
Nov 17 16:56:40 <qwerty12> Is this on a clean tree? (Proper clean that is, not debian/rules's idea of cleaning :))
Nov 17 16:56:48 <johnx> I appreciate the help, but I'm about to fall asleep on my keyboard here
Nov 17 16:56:52 <qwerty12> :)
Nov 17 16:56:58 <johnx> I'll look at it again tomorrow when I can think clearly
Nov 17 16:57:06 <johnx> 'night qwerty12 and thanks again
Nov 17 16:57:15 <Meizirkkki> where can i get aclocal?
Nov 17 16:57:21 <qwerty12> 'night johnx. No problems :)
Nov 17 16:57:47 <Meizirkkki> i am trying to compile advanced-backlight
Nov 17 16:59:00 <qwerty12> johnx, when[/if] you do see this message, try this one instead : http://qwerty12.maemobox.org/configure.ac (I shouldn't have moved the AM_CONDITIONAL line, even though *strictly* speaking, it makes no difference really - just an annoyance rather)
Nov 17 18:02:22 <Stskeeps> Meiz_n810: does your tslib work?
Nov 17 18:02:34 <Stskeeps> i don't seem to have mine working or something
Nov 17 18:03:15 <Meiz_n810> It works with me, did you remember to copy poitercal from maemo?
Nov 17 18:03:42 <Meiz_n810> it refuses to work if there is no /etc/pointercal
Nov 17 18:03:46 <Stskeeps> oh
Nov 17 18:03:51 <Stskeeps> damnit, fell into my own trap :P
Nov 17 18:04:15 <Meiz_n810> i was not able to compile a-b
Nov 17 18:05:07 <Stskeeps> what error did you run into?
Nov 17 18:05:26 <Meiz_n810> autogen naggs about sone binaries are missing
Nov 17 18:05:36 <Meiz_n810> i have installed all build-deps
Nov 17 18:05:50 <Stskeeps> hmm
Nov 17 18:05:56 <Stskeeps> got a paste per chance?
Nov 17 18:06:36 <Meiz_n810> can't paste from qemu, but it says this for example: automake-1.7 No such file of directory
Nov 17 18:06:54 <Stskeeps> ah
Nov 17 18:06:59 <Stskeeps> apt-get install automake17
Nov 17 18:07:13 <Meiz_n810> wait...
Nov 17 18:07:46 <Meiz_n810> fucking homework... =P
Nov 17 18:08:31 <Stskeeps> hehe
Nov 17 18:14:02 <GeneralAntilles> andre__, ping.
Nov 17 18:16:46 <GeneralAntilles> qwerty12, ping.
Nov 17 18:16:53 <qwerty12> GeneralAntilles, pong
Nov 17 18:17:16 <GeneralAntilles> qwerty12, what cool packaging features should I stick in my PSA?
Nov 17 18:17:27 <qwerty12> PSA?
Nov 17 18:17:44 <GeneralAntilles> Maemo-Display-Name, update descriptions, checking to see if a folder was already picked during updates
Nov 17 18:17:48 <GeneralAntilles> Public Service Announcement
Nov 17 18:19:20 <qwerty12> Dunno really, I'm not the best of packagers... A Maemo-Icon-26 is nice if applicable, and maybe (if the application benefits) using VFP
Nov 17 18:20:55 <GeneralAntilles> Can you formulate a generic guide to checking whether a user have previously selected a folder?
Nov 17 18:23:03 <mikkov_> GeneralAntilles: what do you mean by previously selected folder?
Nov 17 18:23:20 <GeneralAntilles> When you select where you want the .desktop to go in the application menu.
Nov 17 18:23:28 <qwerty12> Add 'oldversion="$2"' and 'if [ -z "$oldversion" ]; then' (w/out ') above the maemo-select-menu-location in their postinst and a 'fi' under it
Nov 17 18:23:56 <GeneralAntilles> Rather than a user having to reselect that folder everytime the package is upgraded, it'll check to see if a location has already been picked and suppress the selection dialog if so.
Nov 17 18:24:06 <GeneralAntilles> Thanks, qwerty12.
Nov 17 18:24:16 <GeneralAntilles> I'll run my description by you after I formulate it. ;)
Nov 17 18:24:21 <qwerty12> :)
Nov 17 18:24:52 <qwerty12> Solmumaha warns me however that using oldversion to check isn't exactly wise though as oldversion can mean more than just an upgrade :) but I've yet to see any other ways of doing so
Nov 17 18:25:40 <mikkov_> it's not dangerous when we are talking only about maemo-select-menu-location
Nov 17 18:25:52 <qwerty12> fair enough
Nov 17 18:27:45 * Stskeeps plays with m-r
Nov 17 18:27:56 <mikkov_> http://www.debian.org/doc/debian-policy/ch-maintainerscripts.html#s-mscriptsinstact there's all possibilites
Nov 17 18:27:57 * qwerty12 reads up on how to use maemo-launcher. Messing with router toolchains is driving me to the verge of craziness
Nov 17 18:30:38 <user__> Stskeeps: is the m-r installer on svn most up-to-date?
Nov 17 18:31:19 <Stskeeps> user__: checkking
Nov 17 18:32:41 <Stskeeps> now it is
Nov 17 18:32:46 <Meiz_n810> ok
Nov 17 18:33:11 <Meiz_n810> this time, i had input/output errors all the time
Nov 17 18:33:40 <Stskeeps> eh
Nov 17 18:33:52 <Stskeeps> sure you remembered to install into a mounted partition?
Nov 17 18:33:55 <Stskeeps> heh "(WW) OS did not count PCI devices, guessing wildly
Nov 17 18:33:55 <Stskeeps> "
Nov 17 18:34:03 <Stskeeps> that's the kind of thing you want to see in a X log
Nov 17 18:34:35 <Meiz_n810> mounted partition?
Nov 17 18:35:04 <Meiz_n810> i think the partition has to be mounted if i can boot from it
Nov 17 18:35:10 * qwerty12 uploads the finished "thief's" initfs
Nov 17 18:35:11 <Stskeeps> ah
Nov 17 18:35:23 <Stskeeps> Meiz_n810: true, so input/output errors when booting?
Nov 17 18:36:00 <Meiz_n810> no, when trying to run xserver etc...
Nov 17 18:36:44 <Stskeeps> hm
Nov 17 18:36:47 <Stskeeps> dmesg?
Nov 17 18:37:00 <Meiz_n810> too late..
Nov 17 18:38:31 <Stskeeps> k
Nov 17 18:38:33 <Meiz_n810> i think my sd can be corrupted... I fail 60% of the times i try to install deblet or m-r
Nov 17 18:39:33 <Meiz_n810> or maybe it is always my bad =)
Nov 17 18:41:05 <lcuk2> 60% failure rate isnt that bad - you are just being negative.   remember, 40% of people who tried to install it managed to get through
Nov 17 18:41:13 <GeneralAntilles> qwerty12, can you recommend a link, tool, or something for encoding images into base64?
Nov 17 18:42:05 <lcuk2> GeneralAntilles, man base64
Nov 17 18:42:21 <mikkov_> or uuencode -m
Nov 17 18:42:25 <qwerty12> GeneralAntilles, No, sorry :/. I grab the base64 tool from the certified repository and space out the lines manually for the control file
Nov 17 18:42:48 <lcuk2> (me has never been able to say that before)
Nov 17 18:44:01 <mikkov_> base64 is not in sdk?
Nov 17 18:44:22 <qwerty12> Only source, I can't be arsed to compile it when nokia have already done so :/
Nov 17 18:44:32 <qwerty12> (but not in the sdk repo)
Nov 17 18:44:46 <mikkov_> uuencode is in sdk
Nov 17 18:46:28 * Stskeeps shakes hildon for refusing to give him any icons
Nov 17 18:46:40 <Meiz_n810> lcuk2: when i said 60% i was being positive =P
Nov 17 18:46:48 <GeneralAntilles> If somebody will review what I've got so far . . . http://slexy.org/view/s24BT18FOj
Nov 17 18:46:50 <lcuk2> heh
Nov 17 18:49:03 <lcuk2> GeneralAntilles, that reads really nicely, however i think its gonna get lost in the churn, an additional suggestion would be to see about getting these kind of notes appended to the invitation to upload to extras mail
Nov 17 18:49:24 <GeneralAntilles> lcuk2, I've got a wiki page hanging around somewhere.
Nov 17 18:49:36 <GeneralAntilles> A link to http://hildon-app-mgr.garage.maemo.org/packaging-stable.html in the invite email would work.
Nov 17 18:49:39 <lcuk2> yeah i used it extensively when i was uploading
Nov 17 18:49:52 <lcuk2> http://wiki.maemo.org/Uploading_to_Extras
Nov 17 18:49:55 <lcuk2> i went with that one
Nov 17 18:50:09 <GeneralAntilles> https://wiki.maemo.org/Maemo_packaging is the other
Nov 17 18:50:13 <GeneralAntilles> Shorter than I remember. <_<
Nov 17 18:50:20 <lcuk2> which still specifies signing btw
Nov 17 18:50:40 * GeneralAntilles gently encourages qwerty12 to contribute to that page with a cattle prod. :P
Nov 17 18:51:34 <qwerty12> GeneralAntilles, The hint is gently taken :D. I'll try
Nov 17 18:51:53 <qwerty12> to but there are a lot of better packagers than me :P
Nov 17 18:52:11 <lcuk2> GeneralAntilles, there does need to be a cross link through with the uploading to extras - ive never seen any of the other packaging info pages
Nov 17 18:52:31 <GeneralAntilles> It's like an accomplished biathlete saying he just shoots OK. . . .
Nov 17 18:52:33 <lcuk2> qwerty12, you are amazing at packaging - you can make sure everyone is called northern
Nov 17 18:53:05 <Meiz_n810> Stskeeps: should i use -b option with dpkg-buildpackage, when compiling a-b?
Nov 17 18:53:06 <qwerty12> lcuk2, that postinst was the best :P
Nov 17 18:53:25 <Stskeeps> Meiz_n810: either one will work
Nov 17 18:53:30 <Meiz_n810> ok
Nov 17 18:53:35 <Stskeeps> i just dpkg-buildpacakge really
Nov 17 18:53:59 <lcuk2> GeneralAntilles, no its not - the Hildon-App-Manager is not required for all packages, and as long as they follow apt-get/debian rules people wont get lost.  however the one specific point when entering maemo is the uploading to extras
Nov 17 18:54:28 <lcuk2> yes qwerty12_N800 that postinst was the best, you twt
Nov 17 18:54:33 <lcuk2> ooops, i forgot a vowel
Nov 17 18:54:54 <GeneralAntilles> lcuk2, I don't follow.
Nov 17 18:55:24 <GeneralAntilles> lcuk2, that comment was addressed to qwerty12
Nov 17 18:55:26 <lcuk2> i can build a package without ever knowing that there is a specific program called "hildon-application-manager" (infact i did, it was only recently i found out it had a name)
Nov 17 18:55:52 <lcuk2> the qwerty one was aimed at qwerty, the GeneralAntilles was aimed at you
Nov 17 18:55:59 <lcuk2> the vowel one was qwertys
Nov 17 18:56:03 <GeneralAntilles> lcuk2, fair enough, but what, specifically were you responding to.
Nov 17 18:56:07 <GeneralAntilles> No what's not?
Nov 17 18:56:48 <lcuk2> i think we got wires a bit crossed up there ^
Nov 17 18:56:55 <GeneralAntilles> Yeah, so do I. ;)
Nov 17 18:57:01 * lcuk2 drops it and goes and has t
Nov 17 18:57:01 <qwerty12_N800> lcuk2, i found it more funny that it was included in one of your final releases :p
Nov 17 18:57:26 <lcuk2> regression testing
Nov 17 18:57:30 <lcuk2> << fail
Nov 17 18:57:43 * qwerty12_N800 wonders how many accepted....
Nov 17 18:58:35 <lcuk2> ive actually noticed something more worrying
Nov 17 18:58:47 <lcuk2> in my debian folder a load of the files are now size 0
Nov 17 19:02:23 <qwerty12_N800> lcuk2, checked for the debian northerner virus i added to liqbase?
Nov 17 19:03:50 <lcuk2> no, but did you find my "if(username=qwerty12){ system.charger.overload(); }" tweak?
Nov 17 19:04:14 * Stskeeps gives up on m-r for today until he finds out how the hell to get icons working on hildon.
Nov 17 19:04:20 <timsamoff> Hello... Anyone know when the maemo site redesign meeting is today ?
Nov 17 19:04:32 <qwerty12_N800> lcuk2, south hater!
Nov 17 19:04:44 <X-Fade> timsamoff: some time ago ;)
Nov 17 19:04:56 <GeneralAntilles> timsamoff, bit of a misfire, apparently.
Nov 17 19:04:58 <X-Fade> timsamoff: They were waiting for you..
Nov 17 19:05:03 <timsamoff> Arg. I'm very out of sorts lately.
Nov 17 19:05:07 <GeneralAntilles> You ruined it all.
Nov 17 19:05:20 <qwerty12_N800> Bad timsamoff.
Nov 17 19:05:21 <timsamoff> :p
Nov 17 19:05:30 <GeneralAntilles> No, actually, practically nobody showed.
Nov 17 19:05:37 <GeneralAntilles> Only Peres
Nov 17 19:06:18 <timsamoff> Until I get an actual computer up and running, I may need email reminders. :(
Nov 17 19:06:45 <GeneralAntilles> Subscribe to the RSS feed for maemo.org events and make sure dneary files them. . . .
Nov 17 19:06:45 <timsamoff> Ok. Carry on. I can suck on my own . :p
Nov 17 19:06:46 <lcuk2> so you can go "shit! missed another meeting?"
Nov 17 19:06:48 <Stskeeps> you have your tablet, it's all you need ;)
Nov 17 19:07:00 <Stskeeps> nokia - raw power in your pants
Nov 17 19:07:04 <Stskeeps> .. or something
Nov 17 19:07:15 <lcuk2> its not raw, its refined
Nov 17 19:07:19 <timsamoff> Ha. With tthe ever helpful pim.
Nov 17 19:08:07 <timsamoff> Later, guys. Have a good one.
Nov 17 19:08:40 <andre__> GeneralAntilles, pong
Nov 17 19:08:45 * lcuk2 hates timezones
Nov 17 19:08:56 <lcuk2> why cant everyone be on the same time \@/
Nov 17 19:10:03 <GeneralAntilles> andre__, OK, since I totally failed at cornering guenther about Garage tracking in bugzilla when he was here for about an hour, is there any way you can tell me what needs to be done to start community tracking, and what I need to do (and how to do it) to carry the administrative weight for you?
Nov 17 19:12:25 <andre__> GeneralAntilles, as far as i understand this requires some database changes. one needs to be able to set a user as a developer of a certain product (not trivial) and by that provide permissions to add target milestones, versions, and e.g. adding components
Nov 17 19:12:44 <Mouser810> lcuk2, they can - just adopt internet time :) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swatch_Internet_Time
Nov 17 19:13:31 <GeneralAntilles> non-trivial . . . *sigh*
Nov 17 19:15:36 <andre__> let me ping him
Nov 17 19:16:33 <RST38h> Is maemo.org now officially dead?
Nov 17 19:16:42 <RST38h> It shows some JavaScript error
Nov 17 19:16:45 <GeneralAntilles> Works fine here.
Nov 17 19:17:01 <X-Fade> RST38h: There is a script error on the front page.
Nov 17 19:17:03 <GeneralAntilles> But "maemo.org" is way too non-specific
Nov 17 19:17:09 <X-Fade> RST38h: But we are working on that ;)
Nov 17 19:17:24 <RST38h> General: All of it, I checked
Nov 17 19:17:34 <RST38h> main page, downloads, planet, development
Nov 17 19:17:56 <RST38h> X-Fade: Oh, the horror! The suffering!
Nov 17 19:19:10 <X-Fade> RST38h: What error do you see? Because I can't trigger it now?
Nov 17 19:19:54 <RST38h> X-Fade: FireFox shows a dialog (with warning icon) full of some JS code
Nov 17 19:20:08 <X-Fade> RST38h: My FF3 doesn't do that at all?
Nov 17 19:20:15 <RST38h> weird, seems to work now
Nov 17 19:20:20 <RST38h> may have been a glitch
Nov 17 19:21:51 <GeneralAntilles> qwerty12_N800, anybody else who cares: http://slexy.org/view/s21QtiKjmJ
Nov 17 19:23:21 <GeneralAntilles> Good times with bugs: https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=2436#c4
Nov 17 19:23:59 <qwerty12_N800> GeneralAntilles, looks good to me
Nov 17 19:24:10 * GeneralAntilles posts away.
Nov 17 19:25:04 <RST38h> [in whining voice] Please have user/emulators category! =)
Nov 17 19:25:25 <qwerty12_N800> Though thinking about it, you may want to add base64 should be ran outside of sbox (it's not in any repo except nokia system updates... anyone willing to send base64 to extras?)
Nov 17 19:25:28 * GeneralAntilles writes user/games or user/utilities on RST38h's forehead.
Nov 17 19:25:31 <RST38h> the select-location trick is actually useful
Nov 17 19:25:44 <RST38h> General <-- evil
Nov 17 19:26:07 <GeneralAntilles> RST38h, you said 10% of the packages have to fit in a section for the section to be considered
Nov 17 19:26:13 <GeneralAntilles> That means you need to find about 24 emulators. :P
Nov 17 19:26:38 <GeneralAntilles> and emulators which are clearly games (you know, the ones emulating game systems) don't count. :P
Nov 17 19:26:40 <RST38h> 10 or so I can easily find
Nov 17 19:26:51 <X-Fade> Hmm I am one day behind with Extras account request invitations. 6 people waiting. It seems we get more people on board.
Nov 17 19:26:51 <GeneralAntilles> 10 is closer to %4.
Nov 17 19:27:04 <RST38h> 24 is unlikely but then you can't fuill Location&Navigation based on the same principle
Nov 17 19:28:01 <GeneralAntilles> Would anybody else prefer justified paragraphs on maemo.org?
Nov 17 19:28:05 <Stskeeps> 'lo moontiger
Nov 17 19:28:10 <moontiger> hey :)
Nov 17 19:28:32 <Stskeeps> how's the call-back service going?
Nov 17 19:28:45 <moontiger> i have a nokia n79 phone (just got it) and the web browser is easier to use than the one on my n810
Nov 17 19:28:49 <moontiger> weird
Nov 17 19:28:58 <moontiger> the phonehome?
Nov 17 19:29:01 <Stskeeps> yeah
Nov 17 19:29:07 <mikkov_> GeneralAntilles: I wouldn't write about base64 because it's not available in sdk or extras repo
Nov 17 19:29:31 <moontiger> i have been working on the web interface a lot but havent checked any new code in yet ... been getting ready to move continents
Nov 17 19:29:38 <GeneralAntilles> mikkov_, uuencode -m then?
Nov 17 19:29:58 <RST38h> Ah, my poor little tablet died of staron!
Nov 17 19:30:52 <moontiger> Stskeeps, im hoping to get some new stuff up this week but the server has been down lately too
Nov 17 19:30:58 <Stskeeps> moontiger: *nod* i've mainly been working on the maemo reconstructed proof of concept the last weeks, put deblet in a slightly lower gear as this has more potential
Nov 17 19:31:08 <mikkov_> GeneralAntilles: uuencode is in sharutils utils package, don't know if it's installed by default in sdk
Nov 17 19:31:27 <moontiger> Stskeeps, sounds good ... anything to see yet?
Nov 17 19:31:28 <mikkov_> sharutils package
Nov 17 19:32:19 <Stskeeps> moontiger: http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v119/JohnX/hildon-desktop-gqviewxwd.png , 123mb in flash storage
Nov 17 19:32:34 <moontiger> im thinking to write a generic xml-rpc client that can talk to any service (with config) and upload / download any data you have access to
Nov 17 19:33:11 <moontiger> Stskeeps, looks good
Nov 17 19:33:28 <Stskeeps> and this is with a sane base system :)
Nov 17 19:33:28 <moontiger> a completely free maemo yes?
Nov 17 19:33:49 <Stskeeps> atleast base is, hw support may be non-free
Nov 17 19:33:54 <moontiger> right
Nov 17 19:33:59 <moontiger> depeneding on vendors
Nov 17 19:34:15 <mikkov_> GeneralAntilles: probably link to maemo policy would be good, because it's awful hard to find
Nov 17 19:34:25 <GeneralAntilles> mikkov_, last paragraph
Nov 17 19:34:30 <Stskeeps> yeah, in nokia's case we'd have firmware for wifi+bluetooth, BME and some various stuff probably
Nov 17 19:34:39 <Stskeeps> and their differentation on top
Nov 17 19:34:56 <Mouser810> Has anyone else had problems with their headphone jack?  My device acts like headphones are always connected which overrides bluetooth audio and internal speakers.
Nov 17 19:34:59 <moontiger> nice
Nov 17 19:36:19 <Stskeeps> moontiger: if you're on jaiku you can follow our progress on #reconstructedPOC (warning, we run an experiment where we microdocument everything, achievements, problems, etc :P)
Nov 17 19:36:25 <moontiger> im excited to get moved and settled in so i can get into some coding properly
Nov 17 19:36:46 <moontiger> i'll get a jaiku account set up i think as i want to play with microblogging anyways
Nov 17 19:37:05 <GeneralAntilles> Don't forget Mauku
Nov 17 19:37:09 <Stskeeps> *nod* if you want an invite just say
Nov 17 19:37:12 <moontiger> btw nokia n79 is an awesome phone
Nov 17 19:37:13 <Stskeeps> and yes, mauku is excellent
Nov 17 19:37:13 <moontiger> :)
Nov 17 19:37:20 <moontiger> Stskeeps, thnx will do
Nov 17 19:37:32 <moontiger> could u send one?
Nov 17 19:37:46 <moontiger> lauren at gagfoot dot com
Nov 17 19:38:16 <mikkov_> GeneralAntilles: ok, din't read the whole article ;)
Nov 17 19:38:59 <Stskeeps> moontiger: invited
Nov 17 19:40:13 <Meiz__n810> Stskeeps: i have tried to install m-r with your latest installer now three times... something goes always wrong with debootstrap...
Nov 17 19:40:49 <Stskeeps> Meiz__n810: that's weird.. and md5sum is in place and all that stuff?
Nov 17 19:40:56 <Meiz__n810> yep
Nov 17 19:41:28 <Meiz__n810> it fails at the end if extracting...
Nov 17 19:41:33 <moontiger> Stskeeps, thnx
Nov 17 19:41:49 <Meiz__n810> some problems with libc6
Nov 17 19:42:36 <Stskeeps> Meiz__n810: that's odd really.. debootstrap.log?
Nov 17 19:43:00 <Meiz__n810> s*it, just formatted
Nov 17 19:43:15 <Meiz__n810> i will try to debootstrap manually
Nov 17 19:43:28 <jordan_dev> I'm trying to compile an app for the Nokia n810 using Scratchbox2. The app needs to use a kernel Mutex, but when I include mutex.h, I get "error: field 'wait_list' has incomplete type", and the same error for two other fields.
Nov 17 19:45:10 <Meiz__n810> Stskeeps: i'll try one more time with installer
Nov 17 19:45:30 <Meiz__n810> if it fails i will give you debootstrap.log
Nov 17 19:45:43 <jordan_dev> So has anyone here successfully included mutex.h, and was there any funny business required to get it to compile?
Nov 17 19:47:31 <Stskeeps> jordan_dev: and you're using maemo sdk+?
Nov 17 19:47:37 <jordan_dev> yes
Nov 17 19:49:15 <Stskeeps> why a kernel mutex and not pthread, though?
Nov 17 19:50:06 <jordan_dev> i have an event driven app, a bunch of the event handlers might access some piece of data at the same time, and i want to synchronize access
Nov 17 19:50:23 <jordan_dev> kernel mutex seems like the easiest, lowest overhead method of accomplishing this
Nov 17 19:51:04 <jordan_dev> and these events will be triggered 20-30 times per second, and so low overhead is important
Nov 17 19:52:58 <jordan_dev> this is the first time I've worked on an app that uses any of the kernel headers though, so I'm thinking that I'm missing something simple and fundamental
Nov 17 19:53:55 <jordan_dev> in my rootstrap/usr/include/linux, the version.h file has 2.6.16, and I know that the Nokia is using 2.6.21
Nov 17 19:54:19 <Stskeeps> sure you're using the right rootstrap and not some bora one?
Nov 17 19:55:04 <jordan_dev> it's definitely a diablo rootstrap, although i'm not sure it's been updated since the latest OS2008 release
Nov 17 19:55:42 <jordan_dev> I still don't think that this is what's causing the problem though, because I've checked the mutex.h from 2.6.21, and the same line that's causing problems is in there
Nov 17 19:56:07 <Stskeeps> maybe mutex.h depends on some other .h? system headers arent always honest about their needs
Nov 17 19:57:24 <jordan_dev> do you know if there's a simple way to update the rootstrap?
Nov 17 19:57:37 <jordan_dev> or should I just make a new one
Nov 17 19:58:42 <Stskeeps> question is always if it's sane to make a new one or easy :P
Nov 17 20:07:17 <jordan_dev> i created a new rootstrap and it gives the same kernel sources...so I'm thinking that the rootstrap doesn't contain the nokia n810 kernel sources (which makes sense)
Nov 17 20:07:23 <jordan_dev> but the compiler should still work
Nov 17 20:07:47 <jordan_dev> I'll deal with the problem of running the app on the n810 later, but now I'd just like to get the thing to compile
Nov 17 20:08:59 <Stskeeps> consider using sb1 for now maybe?
Nov 17 20:10:41 * lcuk2 has blank canvas syndrome
Nov 17 20:11:00 * Stskeeps passes lcuk2 some bacon
Nov 17 20:11:03 <jordan_dev> i've never really used it, but I'll try...
Nov 17 20:11:20 <lcuk2> i dont think bacon will help
Nov 17 20:11:31 <lcuk2> i even turned my nose up at some pork crackling today
Nov 17 20:11:51 <qwerty12_N800> lcuk2, now just title that blank canvas "the north"  :p
Nov 17 20:11:52 <jordan_dev> hmmm, same error
Nov 17 20:11:59 <GAN800> liqtris time!
Nov 17 20:12:29 <lcuk2> heh GAN800 i keep writing liqgame.c but get sidetracked and it turns into something else
Nov 17 20:12:33 <lcuk2> cos the ui works for xyz
Nov 17 20:12:50 * lcuk2 has qwertty on ignore so didnt see his comment
Nov 17 20:13:23 <lcuk2> Stskeeps, you've seen the bubbles thing havent you - the windows app
Nov 17 20:13:36 <Stskeeps> thatwhatnow?
Nov 17 20:13:38 <Stskeeps> the
Nov 17 20:14:31 * Stskeeps continues coding his cow collar.. 
Nov 17 20:16:31 <lcuk2> this one http://liqbase.net/lcuk_parray.png
Nov 17 20:18:17 <Stskeeps> hehe, i'm scarred by the VB icon ;)
Nov 17 20:19:57 <RST38h> Hell, people, has ANYONE tried tracking finger movements in GTK+ on Maemo?
Nov 17 20:20:07 <RST38h> motion-notify-event does not work.
Nov 17 20:21:53 <RST38h> !!!!!!!!!!!! Found it!
Nov 17 20:22:02 <RST38h> In MaemoPad+ source code: " gtk_widget_set_extension_events(result->drawingarea, GDK_EXTENSION_EVENTS_CURSOR); /* root of all evil */
Nov 17 20:22:11 <RST38h> indeed.
Nov 17 20:22:16 <lcuk2> from my python drawing thing which uses a gtk drawingarea
Nov 17 20:24:09 <Meiz__n810> Stskeeps: it looks like debootstrap works now
Nov 17 20:25:21 * GeneralAntilles dies of starvation
Nov 17 20:26:03 * ds3 throws cookies at GeneralAntilles
Nov 17 20:26:15 <qwerty12_N800> infobot, give GeneralAntilles cookies
Nov 17 20:26:16 * infobot gives cookies to GeneralAntilles
Nov 17 20:26:22 <RST38h> Nope, this does not work either
Nov 17 20:26:30 * GeneralAntilles catches them out of the air like a seal catching thrown fish.
Nov 17 20:32:53 <RST38h> lcuk: Can you remember how you deed motion tracking?
Nov 17 20:33:22 <lcuk2> RST38h, you had it then
Nov 17 20:33:40 <lcuk2> i created the drawing area (this is python, but i assume the api is similar/same)
Nov 17 20:33:41 <lcuk2> drawing_area.connect("motion_notify_event", motion_notify_event)
Nov 17 20:33:45 <lcuk2> then connected ^
Nov 17 20:33:55 <lcuk2>     drawing_area.set_extension_events(gtk.gdk.EXTENSION_EVENTS_CURSOR)
Nov 17 20:34:20 <lcuk2>     drawing_area.set_events(  gtk.gdk.EXPOSURE_MASK| gtk.gdk.LEAVE_NOTIFY_MASK| gtk.gdk.BUTTON_PRESS_MASK| gtk.gdk.BUTTON_RELEASE_MASK| gtk.gdk.POINTER_MOTION_MASK| gtk.gdk.POINTER_MOTION_HINT_MASK)
Nov 17 20:34:55 <dneary> Hi
Nov 17 20:34:59 <lcuk2> hiya dave
Nov 17 20:35:27 <RST38h> lcuk: Aha! thanks!
Nov 17 20:35:57 <lcuk2> RST38h,  it needs everything i think
Nov 17 20:36:11 <lcuk2> you sound like you saw the problem but just missed a step out
Nov 17 20:36:31 <RST38h> Yea, it works!
Nov 17 20:36:33 <Stskeeps> Meiz_n810: sounds good
Nov 17 20:36:48 <RST38h> does not need some of these but the important thing is to set events BEFORE showing the widget
Nov 17 20:37:14 <lcuk2> ahh (i didnt mean all the event masks - it obviously needed just the ones you were interested in
Nov 17 20:37:32 <lcuk2> anyway, it worked \o/
Nov 17 20:41:04 <RST38h> works beautifully - looks like johnx will get his wish after all
Nov 17 20:47:14 <lcuk2> RST38h, i thought the scaling was odd and not intuitive as well :P glad you managed it
Nov 17 20:47:43 <lcuk2> god ive gotta get some code done tonight
Nov 17 20:55:31 <lcuk2> does anyone know how slow bluetooth is, ie is it practical to allow local file sync between pairs of n8x0s in reasonable time?
Nov 17 20:57:19 <LinuxCode> lcuk2, depends on chipset i believe
Nov 17 20:57:38 <LinuxCode> what are you syncing ?
Nov 17 20:57:42 <LinuxCode> and hi ;-}
Nov 17 20:57:58 <lcuk2> hiya lc, im thinking user info and recent sketches of registered people
Nov 17 20:58:07 <lcuk2> its a pain in the ass to pick up and draw on the wrong tablet
Nov 17 20:58:10 <lcuk2> i wanna autosync
Nov 17 20:58:18 <Guysoft42> hey, how do i tell gpe when the week starts? (its on sunday here,not monday)
Nov 17 20:58:41 <LinuxCode> Guysoft42, never looked
Nov 17 20:58:59 <LinuxCode> i might be wrong but im sure there was an option
Nov 17 20:59:05 <lcuk2> let each tablet build up its own media river, but then when it gets in range of its buddy it will sync
Nov 17 20:59:09 <LinuxCode> might have been in evolution
Nov 17 20:59:19 <LinuxCode> lcuk2, ahhh hmm
Nov 17 20:59:37 <GeneralAntilles> Call it 120KB/sec
Nov 17 20:59:37 <lcuk2> lol
Nov 17 21:00:28 <lcuk2> thanks gen, i gather that going like the clappers will drain battery more than most
Nov 17 21:00:39 * lcuk2 might make the sync one way: downstream
Nov 17 21:00:50 <GeneralAntilles> I've always wanted sync with FBReader
Nov 17 21:00:54 <lcuk2> have everything end up on one big desktop machine (then out onto the wider internet)
Nov 17 21:01:06 <lcuk2> heh GeneralAntilles :) book positions
Nov 17 21:01:17 <lcuk2> i had that between desktop and my pda
Nov 17 21:01:23 <GeneralAntilles> I have a bunch of different devices I read them on
Nov 17 21:01:32 <GeneralAntilles> so just being able to pick up any one of them and go would be great.
Nov 17 21:01:33 <lcuk2> then threw it totally when i got the dead tree of the same book
Nov 17 21:02:17 <lcuk2> that actually sounds quite nice gen :) similar to what im thinking
Nov 17 21:02:31 <GeneralAntilles> It wouldn't be terribly hard to implement
Nov 17 21:02:39 <GeneralAntilles> I was actually considering doing it myself there for a while
Nov 17 21:02:42 <lcuk2> tick select folders/files
Nov 17 21:02:48 * Stskeeps would prefer a tablet being manifestation of taking my home along, o my work home
Nov 17 21:03:01 <GeneralAntilles> cloud stuff
Nov 17 21:03:12 <lcuk2> cloud doesnt work though without internet
Nov 17 21:03:22 <GeneralAntilles> Yeah
Nov 17 21:03:23 <lcuk2> and internet is not yet everywhere
Nov 17 21:03:29 <lcuk2> :(
Nov 17 21:03:31 <GeneralAntilles> Until we have ubiquitous connectivity and very long battery life
Nov 17 21:03:35 <lcuk2> saves on battery at least
Nov 17 21:03:43 <Stskeeps> GeneralAntilles: cloud or cloud.. i believe in personal clouds
Nov 17 21:03:46 <GeneralAntilles> Sync solutions are sorta halfway
Nov 17 21:04:07 <GeneralAntilles> lcuk2, libconic will probably help.
Nov 17 21:04:08 <lcuk2> ewwwwwww Stskeeps, your personal cloud is green
Nov 17 21:04:47 * Stskeeps 's project once m-r works is to have a solution that probes his cellphone through AT commands which cell id it is in and reacts accordingily
Nov 17 21:05:12 <GeneralAntilles> I'd really like to see a phonelink setup that actually works
Nov 17 21:05:20 <GeneralAntilles> caller id popup
Nov 17 21:05:25 <GeneralAntilles> Choose to answer the call through your tablet.
Nov 17 21:05:50 <GeneralAntilles> Sorta like Skype or BluePhoneElite on OS X.
Nov 17 21:06:05 <Stskeeps> so it starts looking for my work WLAN when i get close to it, log on to the municipality wlan when im near it .. etc
Nov 17 21:06:59 <GeneralAntilles> Desktop applet that you can make calls, send and review texts and call logs with.
Nov 17 21:07:25 <lcuk2> pssst gen, thats called a phone
Nov 17 21:07:46 <GeneralAntilles> Well, the idea is so you don't have to take your phone out of your pocket.
Nov 17 21:08:03 <lcuk2> dont you have to to like answer it?
Nov 17 21:08:07 <GeneralAntilles> Typing out a text on the tablet's keyboard is much easier than doing it on a phone keyboard.
Nov 17 21:08:17 <lcuk2> that i agree with
Nov 17 21:08:23 <GeneralAntilles> The idea is to have the tablet act as a handsfree device.
Nov 17 21:08:26 <lcuk2> though my phone fecked that up major style
Nov 17 21:08:34 <GeneralAntilles> So the phone routes calls through your tablet
Nov 17 21:08:43 <lcuk2> it has a computer link thing where i can send texts whilst its connected via bt
Nov 17 21:08:57 <GeneralAntilles> Say you're eating lunch at a coffee shop browsing the web on your tablet
Nov 17 21:09:00 <Stskeeps> i don't mind the thought of a bluetooth dongle that is a gsm device really..
Nov 17 21:09:02 <lcuk2> but the stupid dumb flocking thing sends a text then sits with a dialog box on the phones screen
Nov 17 21:09:07 <GeneralAntilles> call comes in and pops up a banner with caller id and the option to pick up.
Nov 17 21:09:10 <lcuk2> and wont do anything till i find the phone
Nov 17 21:09:34 <lcuk2> GeneralAntilles, just buy a smartphone/5800
Nov 17 21:09:35 <GeneralAntilles> lcuk2, you should be able to authorize the tablet from your phone.
Nov 17 21:09:40 <GeneralAntilles> lcuk2, why?
Nov 17 21:09:43 <GeneralAntilles> I already have the tablet
Nov 17 21:09:45 <Guysoft42> LinuxCode, do you have an idea? i see nothimg in the gui
Nov 17 21:09:50 <GeneralAntilles> and the smartphone is still going to be in my pocket.
Nov 17 21:09:55 <LinuxCode> Guysoft42, Im a tad busy atm
Nov 17 21:09:57 <GeneralAntilles> Besides, the 5800 is $600
Nov 17 21:10:01 <LinuxCode> did you try applet settings ?
Nov 17 21:11:12 <GeneralAntilles> lcuk2, anyway, the tablet interface is always going to be better than the phones interface
Nov 17 21:11:13 <Guysoft42> LinuxCode, yes, nothing.. i gtg to learn too, if anyone knows how to change the week PM me :-)
Nov 17 21:11:28 <GeneralAntilles> It's like comparing the viewfinder on a pocket camera to a DSLR.
Nov 17 21:12:34 <RST38h> General: Have you actually seen Nokia's phone sample lineup?
Nov 17 21:12:49 <GeneralAntilles> RST38h, you mean their current selection of phones?
Nov 17 21:12:58 <Stskeeps> GeneralAntilles: would you btw say that what the tablets are and the OS companion, is open platform, open device?
Nov 17 21:13:13 <Stskeeps> open as in you can mess it up quite a lot on your own
Nov 17 21:13:22 <GeneralAntilles> I would, yes.
Nov 17 21:13:27 <GeneralAntilles> Especially considered in context.
Nov 17 21:13:40 <Stskeeps> compared to android and iphone which are closed devices
Nov 17 21:13:57 <GeneralAntilles> I mean, they're less open if you consider them in the desktop context.
Nov 17 21:14:00 <moontiger> what 5800?
Nov 17 21:14:11 <GeneralAntilles> But as you're dealing with non-commodity hardware in a mobile context. . . .
Nov 17 21:14:24 <qwerty12_N800> moontiger, nokia 5800. s60 touch screen phone
Nov 17 21:14:34 <moontiger> ahhhhhhhhh i have a n79 ... love it
Nov 17 21:14:35 <RST38h> General: No, somebody leaked their developer samples list
Nov 17 21:14:42 <GeneralAntilles> RST38h, oh, right.
Nov 17 21:14:44 <GeneralAntilles> Yeah, saw that.
Nov 17 21:14:46 <GeneralAntilles> Don't care.
Nov 17 21:14:50 <GeneralAntilles> Cellphones aren't my thing.
Nov 17 21:14:50 <t_s_o> https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=2639 <- bah, i feared it...
Nov 17 21:14:51 <RST38h> General: there are 640x480 and 800x480 models
Nov 17 21:15:12 <RST38h> General: So, I wouldn't insist on smartphones never reaching tablets in the ui utility
Nov 17 21:15:19 <qwerty12_N800> moontiger, is that the one with dvb?
Nov 17 21:15:29 <moontiger> dvb?
Nov 17 21:15:49 <milhouse> i have an N85 - i find the email client on it is better than modest (and the email client on the N85 is very, very basic - but works)
Nov 17 21:15:51 <RST38h> General: [and that is also why I said that I would prefer Maemo to S60 on these devices]
Nov 17 21:15:55 <GeneralAntilles> RST38h, a smartphone with a 4" screen is not a smartphone I will use.
Nov 17 21:16:18 <GeneralAntilles> Anyway, those phones are way out of my price range.
Nov 17 21:16:21 <RST38h> General: Why? It isn't prohibitively large
Nov 17 21:16:37 <GeneralAntilles> I prefer a simple, small, thin clamshell design.
Nov 17 21:16:42 <RST38h> You would buy a $400 table but wouldn't buy a $400 phone? Hmm
Nov 17 21:16:49 <RST38h> s/table/tablet/
Nov 17 21:16:49 <infobot> RST38h meant: You would buy a $400 tablet but wouldn't buy a $400 phone? Hmm
Nov 17 21:16:56 <GeneralAntilles> That does 3 things: phonecalls, text and modem
Nov 17 21:17:07 <GeneralAntilles> RST38h, do you really wonder why?
Nov 17 21:17:11 <RST38h> RAZR?!?
Nov 17 21:17:13 <GeneralAntilles> I mean, _really_?
Nov 17 21:17:16 <GeneralAntilles> That seems really clear to me.
Nov 17 21:17:26 <GeneralAntilles> http://images.google.com/images?ie=UTF-8&oe=utf8&q=sgh-a717&um=1&sa=N&tab=wi
Nov 17 21:17:30 <RST38h> Yes because ideology aside, I would rather carry 1 device than 3
Nov 17 21:17:45 <GeneralAntilles> Not when that one device gets fucked by cellular carries.
Nov 17 21:17:55 <GeneralAntilles> You see what fun it causes for Android.
Nov 17 21:18:00 <GeneralAntilles> The same will happen for Maemo.
Nov 17 21:18:15 <GeneralAntilles> I don't like the idea of carrying around a $600 phone all the time.
Nov 17 21:18:16 <RST38h> General: Yes, but you can bring your own device even to an american carrier
Nov 17 21:18:21 <moontiger> qwerty12_N800, im not sure about dvb but it totally rocks as a smaretfone
Nov 17 21:18:22 <GeneralAntilles> There are situations where I don't want my tablet with me
Nov 17 21:18:22 <RST38h> No need to buy subsidized crap
Nov 17 21:18:29 <GeneralAntilles> and I'd rather have a phone that I can afford to replace.
Nov 17 21:18:41 <RST38h> ok, this one is valid indeed
Nov 17 21:18:42 <GeneralAntilles> What is a "fone"?
Nov 17 21:18:44 <glass_> how about a sub 200$ smartphone then
Nov 17 21:18:55 <Stskeeps> GeneralAntilles: maemo would fall apart if it had to be a closed device, imho
Nov 17 21:18:59 <qwerty12_N800> moontiger, :)
Nov 17 21:19:01 <lcuk2> GeneralAntilles, yeah - you might drop your n800 whilst poledancing
Nov 17 21:19:15 <Stskeeps> so many things are easier for developers cos of the open device strategy
Nov 17 21:19:23 <milhouse> hmmmm
Nov 17 21:19:25 <moontiger> qwerty12_N800, it geo tags piccies and has an awesome camera
Nov 17 21:19:40 <moontiger> so im updating my website to process gps exif tags on pics :)
Nov 17 21:19:45 <milhouse> stskeeps: maybe not in nokia-land
Nov 17 21:20:20 <Stskeeps> we have one example of carrier tablets, don't we? the singtel ones?
Nov 17 21:21:32 <GeneralAntilles> milhouse, related to the applet bug: http://www.internettablettalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=24926&page=4
Nov 17 21:23:29 <milhouse> thanks - seems pertinent, i'll have a read.
Nov 17 21:23:38 <milhouse> i guess i'm not alone :)
Nov 17 21:23:54 <GeneralAntilles> milhouse, yeah, it is a bit insane.
Nov 17 21:24:04 <GeneralAntilles> But the change seems to be that we're actually getting WONTFIX responses
Nov 17 21:24:10 <GeneralAntilles> rather than getting no response at all
Nov 17 21:24:26 <GeneralAntilles> Which means that the next step is them paying attention before the window of opportunity for getting bugs fixed closes.
Nov 17 21:24:27 <milhouse> when the Android "reboot" bug appeared and Google released a patch within a few days I did think how long it would have taken Nokia - 6 months to never?
Nov 17 21:24:52 <t_s_o> the community would probably have rolled out some laternate initfs by then...
Nov 17 21:25:01 <milhouse> One outfit does it right, then there's Nokia ...
Nov 17 21:25:04 <GeneralAntilles> milhouse, the last critical crasher bug was the Modest one
Nov 17 21:25:10 <GeneralAntilles> Which they releases 30-2 specifically for
Nov 17 21:25:13 <GeneralAntilles> it took about 1 month.
Nov 17 21:25:26 <milhouse> What about the bug with Modest which causes it to hang every other day?
Nov 17 21:25:33 <andre__> GeneralAntilles: Hey, you understood the definition of "FIXED"! :-P Just kidding, got too many rants today...
Nov 17 21:25:39 <milhouse> No fix yet, no sign of a fix, may never be fixed - renders Modest _useless_
Nov 17 21:25:48 <andre__> milhouse, bug number?
Nov 17 21:25:56 <GeneralAntilles> milhouse, I'm fairly certain the fix is in week 40 or so
Nov 17 21:26:01 <GeneralAntilles> So should be out with the next SSU.
Nov 17 21:26:19 <milhouse> i'm sure it is, apparently we're waiting on other stuff - absolutely nuts. hang on andre, looking it up for ya...
Nov 17 21:26:38 <milhouse> 3641
Nov 17 21:27:02 <andre__> see https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=3641#c26
Nov 17 21:27:20 <milhouse> no good to me
Nov 17 21:27:21 <andre__> modest 1.0-2008.38-1, and 38 is the week number
Nov 17 21:27:27 <milhouse> how do i get that fix?
Nov 17 21:27:40 <milhouse> do i need to be on a special invite list? ;)
Nov 17 21:27:43 <andre__> a) wait b) compile from source
Nov 17 21:27:52 <andre__> heh. i don't have that fix either
Nov 17 21:27:57 <milhouse> i'm a waiter - as are most of nokias customers
Nov 17 21:27:59 <Stskeeps> oh -thats- what that part is
Nov 17 21:28:07 <Stskeeps> ..
Nov 17 21:28:11 <GeneralAntilles> Stskeeps, lol?
Nov 17 21:28:22 <GeneralAntilles> release.year.week#-build#
Nov 17 21:28:34 <Stskeeps> yeah, - i don't usually use weeks in my thinking
Nov 17 21:28:36 <Stskeeps> i think in dates
Nov 17 21:28:51 <andre__> company always think in weeks. they make me nervous :-P
Nov 17 21:28:52 <GeneralAntilles> Neither did I
Nov 17 21:28:57 <GeneralAntilles> Until Maemo. ;)
Nov 17 21:29:32 <milhouse> what would be nice if I could have some idea when a fix was coming... why are schedules so secret? daft really.
Nov 17 21:29:51 <milhouse> and by coming i meant when the next ssu was scheduled
Nov 17 21:30:03 <GeneralAntilles> Fremantle's bringing alpha and beta releases for the SDK
Nov 17 21:30:12 <GeneralAntilles> and likely beta releases for the OS, too.
Nov 17 21:30:57 <milhouse> i'll believe it when i see it
Nov 17 21:31:43 <milhouse> (sorry, been a passenger on the good ship Nokia for faaaar too long!)
Nov 17 21:31:52 <andre__> milhouse, i sometimes think schedules are secret because some engineers fail in 80% of the schedules to keep the given deadlines ;-)
Nov 17 21:32:05 * Stskeeps ponders how many in here has been along since 770 got released
Nov 17 21:32:10 <GeneralAntilles> milhouse, catch up on the lists like I told you. :P
Nov 17 21:32:13 * GeneralAntilles has.
Nov 17 21:32:40 <GeneralAntilles> You'll know the early 770 owners by the bile they spew. ;)
Nov 17 21:32:41 <milhouse> andre: i am a project manager... deadlines slip, but you can still announce them and people will accept a degree of slip
Nov 17 21:33:20 <andre__> milhouse, yes, people. but it might be interesting info for competitors
Nov 17 21:33:22 <milhouse> GAN: I know... busy times right now. just been away on a training course which gave me an oppurtunity to love/hate my n810 in a hotel room :)
Nov 17 21:33:24 <andre__> i don't know, i also can just guess
Nov 17 21:33:45 <milhouse> andre: really? competitors care when nokia will be fixing their product? :)
Nov 17 21:34:11 <andre__> the project i maintain(ed) has fixed deadlines. we deliver the product since years on the day promised months ago. howevere the quality often differs ;-)
Nov 17 21:34:27 <milhouse> andre: we're not talking about new functionality here, just fixing stuff that doesn't work
Nov 17 21:34:36 * Stskeeps has a fonera router he takes along to hotels (flashed firmware ofcourse with dd-wrt), so he can hook up or amplifywifi nets :P
Nov 17 21:34:42 <Stskeeps> after a horrid experience in hong kong
Nov 17 21:35:03 <andre__> milhouse, well, i won't defend nokia here, from my POV it sucks too, so i'll just agree with you :)
Nov 17 21:35:10 <milhouse> :)
Nov 17 21:35:33 <andre__> i just try to understand them sometimes. "try".
Nov 17 21:35:35 <milhouse> oh btw, if i go into one on bugzilla, ranting and raving, please don't take it personally - i know you're in a shitty position
Nov 17 21:36:11 <milhouse> but as an end user/paying customer/advocate of what-could-be it does annoy me what goes on...
Nov 17 21:36:22 <milhouse> or rather, doesn't. :)
Nov 17 21:37:16 <andre__> milhouse, who are you in BZ? bugzilla770 at nmacleod? didn't know before :)
Nov 17 21:37:36 <GeneralAntilles> Nokia's secret plan in hiring andre__ was for him to take the heat so they don't have to. ;)
Nov 17 21:37:38 * andre__ tries to manage dozens of nick to names to faces links but often fails
Nov 17 21:37:39 <GeneralAntilles> flameshield
Nov 17 21:37:40 <milhouse> bugzilla770
Nov 17 21:38:01 <andre__> yeehah! :) cool, nice
Nov 17 21:38:06 <GeneralAntilles> andre__, he was basically bugmaster before you came along.
Nov 17 21:38:21 <andre__> yeah, he read and commented on a lot of bugs
Nov 17 21:38:24 <milhouse> andre: i own my own domain so tend to use email addresses that alert me to anyone that gives my details away to spammers... :)
Nov 17 21:38:28 <andre__> and i'm really thankful for that
Nov 17 21:39:12 <milhouse> i was highly motivated back then - not so much now :(
Nov 17 21:39:13 <andre__> naah, i normally don't take it personally. i've had about four other rants today too. you get used to it after all these years...
Nov 17 21:39:43 <andre__> i can totally understand that. i also have a kind of love-hate relation with other projects i work(ed) on/with
Nov 17 21:40:29 <andre__> GeneralAntilles, i kind of agree
Nov 17 21:40:37 <milhouse> Mind you i had a Canuck telling me my post was apathetic and resigned drivel - shocked i was, SHOCKED! ;)
Nov 17 21:40:39 <andre__> "flameshield"
Nov 17 21:40:54 <andre__> heh
Nov 17 21:41:15 <andre__> tension can be quite useful
Nov 17 21:41:30 <milhouse> andre: at least it shows people care...
Nov 17 21:41:32 * andre__ remembers the best and most offensive bug reports he read
Nov 17 21:41:33 <lcuk2> especially around your underpants
Nov 17 21:41:42 * lcuk2 once had saggy elastic
Nov 17 21:41:49 <andre__> rrrr! more tea vicar!
Nov 17 21:42:36 <lcuk2> \o/ yesssssss i brought it to a standstill
Nov 17 21:42:43 <lcuk2> sorry, carry on lol
Nov 17 21:43:05 <andre__> GeneralAntilles, i think i had it twice that nokians send me an email, asking me to comment on behalf of them. but i don't think they were afraid of rants, more because their comments were not something that should be seen "official"
Nov 17 21:43:13 <andre__> on the other hand, it was "only" two times so far
Nov 17 21:43:28 <andre__> moving slowly...
Nov 17 21:43:40 <GeneralAntilles> lol
Nov 17 21:43:56 <GeneralAntilles> The corporate mentality has to change before we make any real progress.
Nov 17 21:44:09 <GeneralAntilles> If the managers and executives aren't behind the idea, there's no way the engineers will ever be. . . .
Nov 17 21:44:18 <andre__> well, as i told you - it differs from division to division
Nov 17 21:44:40 <andre__> some are used to work more openly, some need more time to understand the advantages
Nov 17 21:45:46 <lcuk2> andre__, that same effect occurs with single developers as well
Nov 17 21:45:51 * Stskeeps ponders what the next bug to push from m-r to bugs.maemo
Nov 17 21:46:57 <lcuk2> so within a team you can have members who are happy to work from public svn and push every 2 minutes, and others who huddle and commit only when finished.  thats been the way forever
Nov 17 21:47:46 <Stskeeps> GeneralAntilles: worst/best part about m-r is so far, there hasn't been 100% showstoppers
Nov 17 21:47:50 <andre__> lcuk2, yeah. but if you don't have "fresh" people in your team that have already worked in open source communities, but instead are only used to the closed way
Nov 17 21:48:11 <andre__> lcuk2, as i said: when i had an error management meeting i asked the managers who had worked with OS communities before
Nov 17 21:48:13 <Stskeeps> there's been difficulties but not something where we had to give up on an avenue
Nov 17 21:48:24 <andre__> it was less than 15%. most people came from the s60 series
Nov 17 21:48:26 <lcuk2> yes, coming to maemo "green" from deep within nokia would be a culture shock i agree
Nov 17 21:48:33 <andre__> exactly
Nov 17 21:48:43 <milhouse> andre: I bet they were glad to get rid of them
Nov 17 21:49:05 <milhouse> andre: Now the S60/Symbian guys are probably hiring open source developers like mad... :)
Nov 17 21:49:19 <andre__> it was interesting to see how novell managed the "imported" open source culture this after they bought suse and ximian
Nov 17 21:50:32 <milhouse> It will be interesting to see what, if anything, Nokia has learned from Maemo when it rolls out Symbian to the open source communities, and what Trolltech can bring to the party
Nov 17 21:51:06 <milhouse> I don't hold out high hopes, unfortunately (God I'm getting too cynical in my old age... :( )
Nov 17 21:51:23 <lcuk2> andre__, i work in a closed source shock, my current boss and colleagues is appalled at the idea that I have created and given away my code
Nov 17 21:51:32 <lcuk2> are ^
Nov 17 21:52:21 <milhouse> shock? is it permanent?
Nov 17 21:52:30 <andre__> milhouse, as long as trolltech is a totally seperate entity it won't change culture. if you really have to integrate them, well...
Nov 17 21:52:30 <lcuk2> lol
Nov 17 21:52:33 <lcuk2> for them yeah ;)
Nov 17 21:52:54 <milhouse> andre: hopefully that can bring some knowledge/advice...
Nov 17 21:53:07 <milhouse> infiltrate the rest of Nokia
Nov 17 21:53:17 <milhouse> ideas, best practice etc.
Nov 17 21:53:21 <GeneralAntilles> I was somewhat encouraged by Quim's comment on itT that the Maemo Community has made some waves in Nokia.
Nov 17 21:53:52 <lcuk2> we need to make more than waves :)
Nov 17 21:54:09 <milhouse> tsunamis
Nov 17 21:54:20 <GeneralAntilles> Actually, andre__, that's an interesting question
Nov 17 21:54:35 <GeneralAntilles> if the non-locking applets bothers so many people so intensely, why don't they just patch it?
Nov 17 21:54:38 <lcuk2> so far i fear the size of waves are measured on a fart in the bathtub scale
Nov 17 21:55:09 <lcuk2> (very fragrant waves i might add)
Nov 17 21:55:36 <andre__> GeneralAntilles, yupp - JFDI (if you have access to the code, patch it and share the patch, and let's try to get it officially included)
Nov 17 21:55:41 <milhouse> GAN: If someone supplies a patch, would Nokia be willing to push it out in an SSU? It seems a bit "not invented here" to not accept the patch
Nov 17 21:55:58 <GeneralAntilles> milhouse, it depends on the product team.
Nov 17 21:56:01 <andre__> GeneralAntilles, I think especially Maemo Summit has made some waves in Nokia
Nov 17 21:56:05 <GeneralAntilles> I dunno for desktop.
Nov 17 21:56:11 <GeneralAntilles> Definitely 100% for h-a-m
Nov 17 21:56:14 <lcuk2> +1 for the summit andre :)
Nov 17 21:56:26 <andre__> as i said, desktop is already in a "only major and critical issues" state
Nov 17 21:56:38 <andre__> i managed to get one non-critical fix in in the last weeks :-/
Nov 17 21:56:48 <GeneralAntilles> Which is really frustrating
Nov 17 21:56:58 <GeneralAntilles> Especially when there's trivial stuff with patches included.
Nov 17 21:57:02 <andre__> well, desktop is the first thing they started with for Fremantle
Nov 17 21:57:06 <andre__> (i think)
Nov 17 21:57:19 <milhouse> Quite right too...
Nov 17 21:57:33 <andre__> well - probably some architecture plans before that, but at least that was my impression,
Nov 17 21:57:48 <GeneralAntilles> If desktop doesn't have enough people to process trivial bugs, then clearly Nokia needs to start hiring.
Nov 17 21:57:49 <milhouse> don't be so sure about that... ;)
Nov 17 21:57:49 <andre__> or maybe the other teams just didn't tell me explicitly that they have in fact moved on too...
Nov 17 21:58:00 * Stskeeps ponders why on earth libgpsbt went from being open source to closed source
Nov 17 21:58:35 <qwerty12_N800> Stskeeps, nokia came to their senses of course!
Nov 17 21:58:44 <GeneralAntilles> It'd be less bothersome if Fremantle were being released for OMAP2 hardware
Nov 17 21:59:05 <GeneralAntilles> or if the bugs hadn't stagnated for freaking ever
Nov 17 21:59:07 <milhouse> it is, isn't it?
Nov 17 21:59:14 <andre__> nobody knows, not even i. i think nokia also doesn't know
Nov 17 21:59:21 <milhouse> i thought we were promised 2 more releases on N8x0?
Nov 17 21:59:31 <GeneralAntilles> milhouse, don't get me started on the excuses that are going to pop up for that.
Nov 17 21:59:34 <milhouse> up to elephanta (or somethingh until it was renamed)
Nov 17 21:59:36 <andre__> milhouse, i think so
Nov 17 21:59:40 <GeneralAntilles> During the Summit, the excuse was that Diablo was the second release.
Nov 17 21:59:52 <GeneralAntilles> Which is such a bogus excuse I'd've stabbed that Nokian in the eye if I were there.
Nov 17 22:00:11 <milhouse> If that bombshell drops ITt will fall off the face of the earth
Nov 17 22:00:11 <andre__> there will be another SSU for diablo. maybe even two. honestly, i don't know, but i've heard rumours
Nov 17 22:00:16 <GeneralAntilles> The reality is that Fremantle may just not be able to run on OMAP2 hardware.
Nov 17 22:00:23 <lcuk2> dont shoot the messenger GeneralAntilles, how do you know its the same lead thats there now as who said that originally
Nov 17 22:00:25 * qwerty12_N800 gives 2 fingers to the inventor of that excuse. Stupid bellend.
Nov 17 22:00:49 <milhouse> GAN: Bogus? You put it mildly sir! ;)
Nov 17 22:01:00 <GeneralAntilles> lcuk2, he deserves to be shot for giving it out with a straight face while not at gunpoint.
Nov 17 22:01:42 <lcuk2> think about it GeneralAntilles the guy could have honestly meant it at the time, but now its like "oh shit"  - kind like running out of doctor who transformations
Nov 17 22:02:09 <Andy80> what package I'm missing in Scratchbox if I get this error starting a Python/GTK application: ImportError: No module named gtk
Nov 17 22:02:09 <Andy80> ?
Nov 17 22:02:30 <milhouse> Maybe Fremantle won't run on N8x0 in the same way that it was impossible to get OS2007 to work on 770...
Nov 17 22:02:43 <GeneralAntilles> Who else thinks the reason Nokia is delaying the DSME source release is so my anger dies down about them moving code into MCE? <_<
Nov 17 22:02:51 <lcuk2> andy80 pygtk?
Nov 17 22:02:51 <GeneralAntilles> milhouse, Clutter
Nov 17 22:02:57 <GeneralAntilles> Totally new media framework
Nov 17 22:03:08 <GeneralAntilles> OMAP3 is fucking lightyears ahead of OMAP2
Nov 17 22:03:22 <milhouse> yah... they might be right this time :)
Nov 17 22:03:24 <GeneralAntilles> Not even close to the jump from OMAP1 to OMAP2
Nov 17 22:03:27 <Andy80> lcuk2: yes, but what is the exact package name?
Nov 17 22:03:31 <Stskeeps> GeneralAntilles: should come soon according to qgil :P
Nov 17 22:03:34 <milhouse> assuming they use all it's goodies of course!
Nov 17 22:03:37 <qwerty12_N800> GeneralAntilles, I hope the rtcomm guy "helps" us out again re mce...
Nov 17 22:03:51 <GeneralAntilles> milhouse, they will.
Nov 17 22:04:03 <milhouse> GAN: what makes you so sure?
Nov 17 22:04:06 <lcuk2> Andy80, at your console type apt-cache search pygtk
Nov 17 22:04:06 <GeneralAntilles> DSP will be used for video decoding
Nov 17 22:04:10 <GeneralAntilles> there will be 3D drivers.
Nov 17 22:04:14 <GeneralAntilles> milhouse, they said so at the Summit.
Nov 17 22:04:16 <lcuk2> it will list matching packages, see which jumps out
Nov 17 22:04:26 <lcuk2> dsp video?
Nov 17 22:04:29 <milhouse> GAN: Sweet... i'll cross my fingers...
Nov 17 22:04:39 <GeneralAntilles> lcuk2, the IVA2 is a little different from the IVA
Nov 17 22:04:51 <lcuk2> yeah, but its wrong to say its dsp
Nov 17 22:04:55 <Andy80> lcuk2: they're all installed
Nov 17 22:05:04 <lcuk2> dunno then andy
Nov 17 22:05:13 <milhouse> I think if/when it becomes official that Fremantle won't run on N8x0 hardware then Nokia have a duty of care to release everything possible to allow community support...
Nov 17 22:05:27 <lcuk2> theres no saying its NOT possible yet
Nov 17 22:05:37 <lcuk2> theres options for 3d on this device still
Nov 17 22:05:37 <milhouse> ok if if if
Nov 17 22:05:37 <Stskeeps> MCE is replacable. DSME is replacable.
Nov 17 22:05:43 <GeneralAntilles> milhouse, well, we've got open source wlan drivers.
Nov 17 22:05:44 <lcuk2> maybe not 800*480 but i think its possible
Nov 17 22:05:50 <GeneralAntilles> So we're not stuck with an old kernel
Nov 17 22:06:02 <milhouse> GAN: Woohoo! :) But that's just for starters, right?
Nov 17 22:06:21 <Stskeeps> milhouse: i'm able to replicate a horridly lot of maemo functionality so far
Nov 17 22:06:22 <GeneralAntilles> The kernel is really the nastiest hurdle.
Nov 17 22:06:41 <GeneralAntilles> Everything else is either non-critical or has open source equivalents.
Nov 17 22:06:52 <lcuk2> bbl
Nov 17 22:07:03 <milhouse> What happened to BME?
Nov 17 22:07:16 <qwerty12_N800> still exists
Nov 17 22:07:31 <Stskeeps> is a hald addon now really
Nov 17 22:07:31 <milhouse> is that open sourced know or are we still having to guess what it does?
Nov 17 22:07:33 <GeneralAntilles> lcuk2, the C64x is a DSP
Nov 17 22:07:38 <Stskeeps> the communication part, that is
Nov 17 22:07:39 <milhouse> s/know/now
Nov 17 22:08:07 <Stskeeps> with FTD it will take a determined person a couple of days to reveal entire BME status, really
Nov 17 22:08:46 <Stskeeps> but let's see how nokia will act regarding fremantle :P
Nov 17 22:08:59 <milhouse> yeah, everyone (from Nokia) keeps saying it's really simple to reverse engineer it - if it's that simple, why do we have to? don't make us beg, jump through hoops...
Nov 17 22:09:15 <GeneralAntilles> Ha
Nov 17 22:09:19 <Stskeeps> bme i can understand why they don't want us fiddling with, though
Nov 17 22:09:25 <GeneralAntilles> Kaboom
Nov 17 22:09:47 <zakkm> is jonx or Stskeeps here?
Nov 17 22:09:49 <Stskeeps> but publishing interfaces to get current power usage, battery level, etc, should be enough
Nov 17 22:09:50 <milhouse> all the more reason may be to give us the details? :) someone will work it out eventually, if it really is that simple
Nov 17 22:09:53 <Stskeeps> zakkm: .. i'm around
Nov 17 22:09:55 <lcuk2> you arent called the General for nothing gen :) you are right of course, i thought the ISP was used for vid decoding http://focus.ti.com/general/docs/wtbu/wtbuproductcontent.tsp?templateId=6123&navigationId=12643&contentId=14649
Nov 17 22:10:08 <zakkm> oh Stskeeps: did you want the "server"?
Nov 17 22:10:13 <zakkm> would it help?
Nov 17 22:10:31 <GeneralAntilles> lcuk2, ISP is for the camera (up to 12MP)
Nov 17 22:10:31 <zakkm> lcuk2: why is liqbase camera .. upside down?
Nov 17 22:10:32 <Stskeeps> zakkm: sure, - right now im compiling somewhere im not really supposed to :P
Nov 17 22:10:36 <GeneralAntilles> So, you're more or less correct. ;)
Nov 17 22:10:48 <milhouse> IVA on OMAP2 is for video acceleration, but not used.
Nov 17 22:11:03 <lcuk2> zakkm, cos i had a locked camera n810 and didnt realise there was anything needed in code to do
Nov 17 22:11:05 <zakkm> Stskeeps: Is it just debian + ssh ?
Nov 17 22:11:12 <lcuk2> it will be fixed for the next release
Nov 17 22:11:21 <Stskeeps> zakkm: ubuntu server is probably best
Nov 17 22:11:28 <Stskeeps> as we develop on a ubuntu base
Nov 17 22:11:29 <zakkm> lcuk2: ah okay, my friends in drama class ( grade 12 - highschool  ) was like wtf why is it upside down
Nov 17 22:11:31 <lcuk2> GeneralAntilles, yeah i see
Nov 17 22:11:38 <zakkm> oh i think that somewhere
Nov 17 22:11:42 <zakkm> would be 7.04
Nov 17 22:11:58 <lcuk2> zakkm, did you (and them) like it
Nov 17 22:11:58 <GeneralAntilles> lcuk2, bringing the IVA and DSP together is likely to increase the usage
Nov 17 22:12:05 <lcuk2> yeah no doubt
Nov 17 22:12:07 <Stskeeps> milhouse: if we actually get something about of seperating the maemo from the hw support, and establishing a core platform which we -then- place hw support on top of.. then things look a lot different
Nov 17 22:12:10 <GeneralAntilles> I'm not sure ANYTHING uses the IVA on OMAP2
Nov 17 22:12:13 <zakkm> yeah, the normal camera app freezes my nokia ;p
Nov 17 22:12:16 <GeneralAntilles> It's hard enough to get the DSP to do useful things.
Nov 17 22:12:19 <zakkm> also, why is it tiled?
Nov 17 22:12:22 <lcuk2> no, but it has RGB->YUV locked up inside it
Nov 17 22:12:42 <lcuk2> i wanted to use it as a pathway from the PVR output plane into the memory for sending to LCD
Nov 17 22:12:56 <lcuk2> to maintain nice fast all hardware pipeline
Nov 17 22:13:22 <milhouse> i do hope the video on the next device isn't as fcked up as the last one
Nov 17 22:13:43 <Stskeeps> milhouse: then ideally all nokia would have to do is support their binary blobs and just rebuild the images.. but we'll see :P
Nov 17 22:13:45 <lcuk2> its the sensor quality which lets it down
Nov 17 22:14:00 <milhouse> lcuk: and the video bandwidth (or lack of)
Nov 17 22:14:01 <lcuk2> in liqbase i desaturate every image by 50% to try to reduce the snow
Nov 17 22:14:18 <zakkm> is this OMAP3430 the one in the nokia n800?
Nov 17 22:14:25 <lcuk2> my dedicated camera has trouble showing live 640*480 video feeds its just recorded
Nov 17 22:14:42 <milhouse> lcuk: but deffo agree on the sensor quality... I had a look at an iPhone the other day, I gave it back and sobbed gently to myself (nobody saw so that's ok)
Nov 17 22:14:57 <GeneralAntilles> milhouse, OMAP3 can decode 720p without issue just with NEON optimizations.
Nov 17 22:15:13 <GeneralAntilles> zakkm, the N8x0 has an OMAP2420
Nov 17 22:15:16 <zakkm> oh
Nov 17 22:15:21 <lcuk2> milhouse, i've pushed as hard as i can re the camera and people all appeared to agree that a better camera will be included
Nov 17 22:15:28 <milhouse> GAN: that'll be nice, maybe the new device will have video out like my N85 (composite output via a 3.5mm headphone socket)
Nov 17 22:15:34 <zakkm> does this opengl fremantle is suppose to bring, work on the n800?
Nov 17 22:15:41 <zakkm> or is it referring to the new nokia model
Nov 17 22:15:42 <lcuk2> nobody knows
Nov 17 22:15:45 <GeneralAntilles> milhouse, it's got a whole 640x480 framebuffer just for video out.
Nov 17 22:15:49 <GeneralAntilles> Hopefully Nokia hooks it up to something.
Nov 17 22:15:52 <JamieBennett> zakkm: The omap2 and omap3 are leagues apart when it comes to media
Nov 17 22:15:58 <Andy80> lcuk2: now it works... I simply was using python instead of python2.5
Nov 17 22:16:35 <Andy80> another question: what's wrong if I'm not able to connect to internet from inside the Maemo running on Xephyr?
Nov 17 22:16:51 <milhouse> GAN: 640x480 - the new device?
Nov 17 22:16:52 <lcuk2> i dunno, i dont design on fake incomplete hardware
Nov 17 22:16:57 <Stskeeps> Andy80: probably resolv.conf not right
Nov 17 22:16:59 <GeneralAntilles> milhouse, OMAP3
Nov 17 22:17:07 <lcuk2> its a touch device, i write touch software, im not going to use a mouse to test it
Nov 17 22:17:15 <GeneralAntilles> Two framebuffers, the main one is 1024x768, the secondary is 640x480
Nov 17 22:17:22 <Andy80> Stskeeps: but.... for example wget from Scratchbox command line works fine
Nov 17 22:17:22 <milhouse> GAN: What would be better, of course, would be 720p but that would require another socket of some kind on the device.
Nov 17 22:17:35 <GeneralAntilles> and another controller.
Nov 17 22:17:37 <zakkm> lol
Nov 17 22:17:39 <milhouse> GAN: Can the OMAP3 output 720p ?
Nov 17 22:17:48 <JamieBennett> milhouse: yes
Nov 17 22:17:50 <GeneralAntilles> 1024x768 on the primary framebuffer
Nov 17 22:17:50 <zakkm> 720p .. huge filesize, how big are your SD cards? :P
Nov 17 22:17:51 <GeneralAntilles> So, no.
Nov 17 22:18:12 <lcuk2> zakkm, compression and networks
Nov 17 22:18:18 <GeneralAntilles> Although if you get deep enough hooks you could probably play with the timings to squeeze a little more out
Nov 17 22:18:23 <GeneralAntilles> but, uh, no guarantees.
Nov 17 22:18:25 <milhouse> zakkm: 8gb microSD, 16gb SD...
Nov 17 22:18:33 <JamieBennett> generalantilles: 720p is possible on beagle or do you know something I don't
Nov 17 22:18:44 <GeneralAntilles> JamieBennett, display resolution output?
Nov 17 22:18:48 <GeneralAntilles> Not decoding.
Nov 17 22:18:49 <JamieBennett> yup
Nov 17 22:19:18 <GeneralAntilles> http://groups.google.com/group/beagleboard/browse_thread/thread/fb5b422846e1933d?pli=1
Nov 17 22:19:26 <JamieBennett> maybe wires crossed are we talking black bars?
Nov 17 22:19:28 <milhouse> GAN: 720p video out would be icing on the cake but not essential (for me) - as long as the primary video is spot on and not flawed by poor design that's all that matters to me.
Nov 17 22:20:11 <milhouse> GAN: I'm sure the IVA/IVA2 in OMAP2 is capable of decoding DVD resolution, would have expected the OMAP3 to have pushed that to at least 720p
Nov 17 22:20:17 <GeneralAntilles> Anyway, there's basically no chance of Nokia wiring it up that way.
Nov 17 22:20:23 <GeneralAntilles> An HDMI port simply wouldn't fit on the device
Nov 17 22:20:26 * JamieBennett is reading
Nov 17 22:20:33 <GeneralAntilles> and it's totally not in their target audience's use-case.
Nov 17 22:20:52 <GeneralAntilles> milhouse, I don't think anybody has utilized the DSP yet for video decoding.
Nov 17 22:20:56 <milhouse> GAN: There must be some sort of "miniHDMI" coming - what do Archos do?
Nov 17 22:20:59 <GeneralAntilles> NEON is just SIMD on the Cortex.
Nov 17 22:21:08 <GeneralAntilles> milhouse, bigger device, proprietary docking port.
Nov 17 22:21:37 <JamieBennett> or Displayport (me ducks!)
Nov 17 22:21:38 <milhouse> I'd actually like it to have a docking port - easy charging + video  in one dock would work for me.
Nov 17 22:22:12 <milhouse> Maybe even replicate USB, keyboard/mouse etc.... my ideal would be for these things to become desktop substitutes
Nov 17 22:22:19 <GeneralAntilles> I still can't get over this http://www.internettablettalk.com/forums/showthread.php?p=242727
Nov 17 22:23:48 <milhouse> Fair answer - needs a shave though
Nov 17 22:23:55 <JamieBennett> GeneralAntilles: As with all software, the larger the project the more bugs
Nov 17 22:24:38 <GeneralAntilles> I should update my avatar
Nov 17 22:24:45 <milhouse> :)
Nov 17 22:25:32 <JamieBennett> GeneralAntilles: It should be number of bigs/number of users
Nov 17 22:25:40 <JamieBennett> bugs :)
Nov 17 22:25:45 <GeneralAntilles> JamieBennett, that doesn't tell you anything, either.
Nov 17 22:26:01 <GeneralAntilles> Only the bug-filing proclivity of a particular product's userbase.
Nov 17 22:26:26 <GeneralAntilles> OK, new avatar uploaded
Nov 17 22:26:37 <JamieBennett> GeneralAntilles: So the answer is ...
Nov 17 22:26:47 <GeneralAntilles> Let's see if the change in demeanor changes people's responses to me. :D
Nov 17 22:26:50 <milhouse> that's so much better! ;)
Nov 17 22:26:55 <GeneralAntilles> Ahaha
Nov 17 22:26:58 <GeneralAntilles> That cracks me up.
Nov 17 22:27:01 <milhouse> the scowl has been banished!
Nov 17 22:27:13 <GeneralAntilles> Scowl -> goofy grin
Nov 17 22:27:23 <GeneralAntilles> I look like such a wanker
Nov 17 22:27:27 <lcuk2> omg gen, you finally got laid then i see
Nov 17 22:27:29 <JamieBennett> still need a shave ;)
Nov 17 22:27:32 <GeneralAntilles> Ahahaha
Nov 17 22:27:40 <GeneralAntilles> JamieBennett, I was considering it a few weeks ago
Nov 17 22:27:45 <GeneralAntilles> but then winter came on.
Nov 17 22:27:48 <JamieBennett> :)
Nov 17 22:28:11 <GeneralAntilles> Imma start growing it out into a scarf in preparation for next year. ;)
Nov 17 22:28:18 <zakkm> Hi , sorry, before i bought my nokia n800, i saw an app that looked identical and functioned just like a TI-83? calculator, but i couldnt find the program again since
Nov 17 22:28:27 <zakkm> anyone happen to know and willing to share the name
Nov 17 22:28:55 <GeneralAntilles> Oh, man, lcuk2, I'm still laughing.
Nov 17 22:29:07 <lcuk2> zakkm, http://www.internettablettalk.com/forums/showthread.php?p=229611   try this
Nov 17 22:29:08 * GeneralAntilles hits the back button to compare.
Nov 17 22:29:10 <milhouse> zakkm: there was an HP calculator app
Nov 17 22:29:16 <zakkm> yeah i think thats it
Nov 17 22:29:26 * JamieBennett thinks lcuk2 has a 'condition' ;)
Nov 17 22:29:45 <lcuk2> yeah, writers block
Nov 17 22:29:47 <milhouse> try googleing for "maemo hp calculator" should be the first few hits
Nov 17 22:29:57 <milhouse> dunno if any links actually work, mind
Nov 17 22:30:32 <zakkm> thats a free42
Nov 17 22:30:33 <milhouse> here's the link for OS2008: http://maemo.org/downloads/product/OS2008/free42/
Nov 17 22:30:33 <GeneralAntilles> If I get interesting results from this I may have to write up a paper on an avatars demeanor's effect on user reactions in internet forums.
Nov 17 22:30:44 <zakkm> looking for a TI-83/84
Nov 17 22:30:59 <milhouse> zakkm: ah right, sorry
Nov 17 22:31:10 <zakkm> oh there we go lol
Nov 17 22:31:11 <zakkm> found it
Nov 17 22:31:22 <GeneralAntilles> It was slow last time I tried it. :(
Nov 17 22:31:24 <zakkm> http://maemo.org/downloads/product/OS2008/tiemu2/
Nov 17 22:31:29 * GeneralAntilles likes his TI-89
Nov 17 22:31:40 <zakkm> oh Ti89/92
Nov 17 22:31:45 <zakkm> its slow?
Nov 17 22:31:56 <andre__> i can offer a TI-92
Nov 17 22:32:14 <lcuk2> any advance on ti-92, going once
Nov 17 22:32:18 <lcuk2> going twice
Nov 17 22:32:23 <zakkm> $1!
Nov 17 22:32:34 <lcuk2> sold!
Nov 17 22:32:47 <andre__> whoops
Nov 17 22:32:51 <lcuk2> ok thats as cheesy as GeneralAntilles's grin
Nov 17 22:32:52 <GeneralAntilles> We had so much fun with the TI-83 in middle school
Nov 17 22:33:22 <GeneralAntilles> Somebody reprogrammed a monster fighting game with the names of all of the teachers one time. <_<
Nov 17 22:33:28 <lcuk2> http://www.apple.com/trailers/paramount/startrek/
Nov 17 22:33:30 <Juhaz> puny toys, go HP-48!
Nov 17 22:33:38 <zakkm> oh, how come i cant get rtcomm ?
Nov 17 22:33:47 <zakkm> missing dependencies
Nov 17 22:34:13 <zakkm> is there a rtcomm repository or something
Nov 17 22:35:07 <JamieBennett> why does canola clean up also remove carman?
Nov 17 22:35:13 <GeneralAntilles> Does it?
Nov 17 22:35:19 <andre__> zakkm, yepp: Collabora
Nov 17 22:35:33 <GeneralAntilles> Wishes Nokia would get the rtcomm stuff into Extras-devel already.
Nov 17 22:35:36 <andre__> http://pacakges.collabora.co.uk/maemo
Nov 17 22:35:40 <milhouse> I had one of these when I was at school! :) http://www.datamath.org/Related/Casio/fx-7000G.htm
Nov 17 22:35:44 <andre__> remove the typo first, though
Nov 17 22:36:00 <JamieBennett> installed carman, installed canola clean up, ran canola cleanup, installed canola, no carman
Nov 17 22:36:01 * zakkm wonders if hes the only one here still in school ( highschool that is )
Nov 17 22:36:11 <lcuk2> omg + star trek trailer
Nov 17 22:36:16 <jagernot> once again i appear with my audio synth for your perusal...features in this version: stereo rhythms...please check out http://www.poojyum.com/boxar_1.0-1_armel.deb
Nov 17 22:36:28 <zakkm> andre_ : link didnt work ;p
Nov 17 22:36:31 <jagernot> your comments welcome.
Nov 17 22:36:39 <andre__> zakkm, depends on definition of school... i'm still a university student :-P
Nov 17 22:36:40 <GeneralAntilles> JamieBennett, maybe when it purges EFL?
Nov 17 22:36:47 <qwerty12_N800> zakkm, nope ;). but it's my last year anyway
Nov 17 22:37:01 <GeneralAntilles> jagernot, Extras-devel! :D
Nov 17 22:37:06 <JamieBennett> maybe? Something common is there that completely blasts carman
Nov 17 22:37:24 <jagernot> gen: how do i add to extras devel?
Nov 17 22:37:31 <GeneralAntilles> JamieBennett, maybe harass etrunko.
Nov 17 22:37:37 <GeneralAntilles> ~upload-extras
Nov 17 22:37:38 <infobot> rumour has it, upload-extras is http://wiki.maemo.org/Uploading_to_Extras
Nov 17 22:37:40 <GeneralAntilles> jagernot ^
Nov 17 22:37:55 <JamieBennett> GeneralAntilles: Done
Nov 17 22:38:41 <jagernot> ok will do that..if anybody could check it out (including you General) that will be nice :)
Nov 17 22:39:45 * andre__ pets infobot 
Nov 17 22:44:06 <zakkm> whats the difference between " nokia chat " and rtcomm?
Nov 17 22:46:57 <Sargun> Is there any way to put my device in host mode USB and charge at the same time? Without modifying cables.
Nov 17 22:47:13 <GeneralAntilles> Um?
Nov 17 22:47:21 <GeneralAntilles> Plug in the charger and an OTG adaptor?
Nov 17 22:48:02 <milhouse> Yes, no USB charging on N8x0
Nov 17 22:48:33 <Sargun> Err
Nov 17 22:48:42 <Sargun> This is not for an N810 :-/
Nov 17 22:48:46 <milhouse> Speaking of which, I hate microUSB charging - I do hope Nokia don't go the route of charging only through a microUSB port on the next device and then hide the port behind a kick stand...
Nov 17 22:49:18 <milhouse> Sargun: Sorry, thought you were zakkm, I misread. What device is it?
Nov 17 22:49:26 <Sargun> OpenMoko.
Nov 17 22:49:30 <Sargun> FR.
Nov 17 22:49:41 <Sargun> I need to pump power into the miniUSB-b port.
Nov 17 22:49:48 <Sargun> and also use it in host mode
Nov 17 22:49:53 <milhouse> I've no idea, sorry
Nov 17 22:50:05 <GeneralAntilles> Sargun, an OpenMoko channel would probably know better. :)
Nov 17 22:50:09 <milhouse> Wouldn't you be better iff asking on the openmoko channel?
Nov 17 22:50:13 <Sargun> It's a hardware question...
Nov 17 22:50:14 <milhouse> s/iff/off/
Nov 17 22:50:15 <infobot> milhouse meant: Wouldn't you be better off asking on the openmoko channel?
Nov 17 22:50:18 <zakkm> whats oepnmoko?
Nov 17 22:50:32 <milhouse> open source hardware/software phone
Nov 17 22:50:41 <milhouse> mobile phone
Nov 17 22:50:49 <zakkm> what does it have to do with maemo?
Nov 17 22:51:00 <qwerty12_N800> And I think the openmoko guys know more about the hardware then us
Nov 17 22:51:33 <milhouse> zakkm: nothing :)
Nov 17 22:51:36 <Sargun> Well, they're busy
Nov 17 22:51:39 <Sargun> you guys are just bright
Nov 17 22:51:50 <milhouse> you're new around here, huh?
Nov 17 22:51:56 <milhouse> ;)
Nov 17 22:52:14 <zakkm> not quite, but i have a bad memory so that plays it role
Nov 17 22:52:47 <milhouse> zakkm: I meant Sargun, he doesn't know us very well (joke)
Nov 17 22:52:58 <Sargun> heh
Nov 17 22:53:13 <zakkm> oh sorry
Nov 17 22:54:07 <Stskeeps> the weirdest things laying about in svn .. "delicious-applet
Nov 17 22:54:17 <GeneralAntilles> In stage?
Nov 17 22:54:19 <Stskeeps> yeah
Nov 17 22:54:23 <GeneralAntilles> Weird
Nov 17 22:54:26 <GeneralAntilles> Compile it? :D
Nov 17 22:54:39 <Stskeeps> "Example statusbar applet for storing bookmarks in del.icio.us
Nov 17 22:54:42 <qwerty12_N800> yerga's already done it
Nov 17 22:54:54 <GeneralAntilles> Where is yerga?
Nov 17 22:54:57 <GeneralAntilles> I need to ask him a question. . . .
Nov 17 22:58:44 <zakkm> GeneralAntilles: wouldnt it be nice if that worked... hmm i need ___ .. *BAM* appears
Nov 17 22:58:54 <GeneralAntilles> You don't even know.
Nov 17 22:59:04 <GeneralAntilles> Although it has happened before.
Nov 17 22:59:19 <zakkm> i was thinking more reality, not irc
Nov 17 23:00:16 <GeneralAntilles> Well, I never need people in reality. :P
Nov 17 23:06:13 <Mouser810> Has anyone else had problems with their headphone jack?  My device acts like headphones are always connected which overrides bluetooth audio and internal speakers.
Nov 17 23:14:32 * Stskeeps makes a mental note internal and external hildon isn't synchronized
Nov 17 23:56:17 <test> Hi everybody, I've got a simple question.... I've installed maemo SDK 4.1.1 DIABLO in scratchbox on my ubunto Hardy Heron system. It works fine.
Nov 17 23:57:49 <test> I've started OS2008 hildon in my Xephyr window with af_sb_init and it loads ok.... but there's one problem : I can't access internet... nor can I run a browser session... should that be possible from scratchbox ?? thanx
Nov 18 00:00:22 <Andy80> hi test
Nov 18 00:00:31 <Andy80> I've  a similar problem
Nov 18 00:00:57 <Andy80> can you test if you can access internet from scratchbox, just using wget for example?
Nov 18 00:06:05 <test> sorry, I was eatin'.... ok, Andy80... yep, I've got internet access from Scratchbox (wget,...)
Nov 18 00:06:26 <Andy80> same problem then!
Nov 18 00:06:28 <Andy80> :(
Nov 18 00:06:38 <Andy80> and I still don't know how to solve it
Nov 18 00:06:48 <test> Andy80: it's internet access from OS2008 (after af_sb_init start) that doesn't kick in.. I don't know why
Nov 18 00:07:45 <Andy80> we should post on maemo-developers mailing list
Nov 18 00:09:11 <GeneralAntilles> It's depressing when filing a new bug doesn't actually send an email to anybody @nokia. . . .
Nov 18 00:12:00 <Andy80> GeneralAntilles: well... if you post it on maemo-developers ML they should read it.... I think...
Nov 18 00:12:31 <GeneralAntilles> Andy80, maemo-developers isn't the place to file bugs.
Nov 18 00:12:35 <GeneralAntilles> That's what bugs.maemo.org is for.
Nov 18 00:13:57 <Andy80> GeneralAntilles: yes, but.... fill it on bugs.maemo.org, then announce it on mailing list...
Nov 18 00:14:08 <GeneralAntilles> Andy80, it doesn't work like that. :)
Nov 18 00:14:15 <GeneralAntilles> That's what we like to call spam. ;)
Nov 18 00:15:09 <Andy80> it's not spam.... if you submit a bug it's because you want to improve Maemo... I think it's related to the mailing list too....
Nov 18 00:15:16 <GeneralAntilles> It really isn't
Nov 18 00:15:46 <GeneralAntilles> The way it should work, is the appropriate Nokia engineers and product managers should be watching the bugzilla products and components they own and actioning bugs as appropriate
Nov 18 00:15:49 <GeneralAntilles> but they aren't.
Nov 18 00:17:01 <Andy80> well, this is a clear "hole" in the maemo management.... you could blog about this and ask Nokia people to do something :)
Nov 18 00:17:37 <GeneralAntilles> Yes, well, it's been being "worked on" since 2006 https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=630
Nov 18 00:24:19 <Andy80> I'll vote for the bug
Nov 18 00:26:54 <andre__> either vote or blame me :-P
Nov 18 00:27:35 <Stskeeps> death to xephyr based emulation!
Nov 18 00:27:37 * Stskeeps chants
Nov 18 00:27:39 * Stskeeps goes to bed
Nov 18 00:34:11 <GeneralAntilles> andre__ -> /msg
Nov 18 00:41:56 <Andy80> GeneralAntilles: good email :)
Nov 18 02:00:53 <test> Hi everybody, I'd like to know if anyone has ever gotten internet connectivity to work in the sb_af_init.sh UI from scratchbox ?
Nov 18 02:01:08 <timeless> hello world
Nov 18 02:01:15 <timeless> anyone here have time to 'play'?
Nov 18 02:01:33 * timeless is looking for something to break
Nov 18 02:05:35 <fred23> Hi everybody, I'd like to know if anyone has ever gotten internet connectivity to work in the sb_af_init.sh UI from scratchbox ?
Nov 18 02:07:43 <fred23> I've installed Maemo SDK 4.1.1 DIABLO in scratchbox and everything seem to work fine... the only problem is : When I start the emulated version of OS2008 (X86 target) on the Xephyr server, with sb_af_init, I cannot access the web, nor can I start a new browse page with the browser... what's wrong ?
Nov 18 02:28:22 <`0660> fred23, i always had trouble with /etc/nsswitch.conf in scratchbox environment
Nov 18 02:29:29 <`0660> http://lists.maemo.org/pipermail//maemo-users/2007-February/014351.html
Nov 18 02:29:41 <`0660> i'm not sure if it still applies
**** ENDING LOGGING AT Tue Nov 18 02:59:56 2008