**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Fri Jan 02 02:59:57 2009 Jan 02 03:01:15 can't help you directly, but if you google, search for "raise" and "lower" not "back" and "front" Jan 02 03:02:30 i just did - i found the inverse in code and followed via there, thanks tho :) Jan 02 03:03:37 Hooray for words! Jan 02 03:04:19 How about we make a programming language where you can use keywords, and synonyms for the keywords? :-P Jan 02 03:04:28 Forget function -- "bunch_of_commands" Jan 02 03:06:22 ok, that would be awesome. it should have some exact synonyms and some functions that do kind of the same thing Jan 02 03:06:54 and should be interpreted slightly differently on regionally different interpreters Jan 02 03:07:14 OK... you get to work on that... let me know when it's done :-P Jan 02 03:07:30 done Jan 02 03:07:39 I call it "spoken and written human language" Jan 02 03:07:44 lol Jan 02 03:10:15 huh...I wonder if anyone had an n8x0 crash on the leap second Jan 02 03:19:58 Can the NITdroid kernel boot into maemo? Jan 02 03:22:48 I would bet against it Jan 02 03:23:03 what I think people are working on is using kexec to just run Nokia's kernel Jan 02 03:24:42 Bah, I don't want to deal with that :-P Jan 02 03:26:46 Well, talk to you guys later.. bye Jan 02 03:58:25 I'm going nuts Jan 02 03:58:34 * alterego is nutz Jan 02 03:58:38 I compiled the arm-hello script in the scratchbox howto Jan 02 03:59:06 and I got it onto my n810 and when I do ./arm-hello it says '-sh: ./arm-hello: not found' Jan 02 03:59:19 it's chmod +x and it even auto-completes the filename for me Jan 02 03:59:45 sounds like you compiled it with the wrong toolchain. Jan 02 04:01:28 http://des.truct.org/tmp/compile.png Jan 02 04:01:30 *script* is your shebang thing right Jan 02 04:01:40 it's a c program, man Jan 02 04:03:06 alterego: is this wrong? Jan 02 04:03:25 the exact compiler that the tutorial says to use isn't there, as I used the deb repositories Jan 02 04:04:17 since all the path to gcc is normally not required i would say you went wrong somewhere by specifying one on the console Jan 02 04:04:38 either you are not inside a scratchbox user, or the toolchain is not setup correctly Jan 02 04:04:55 God, it's 4am .. Jan 02 04:05:04 404 actually Jan 02 04:05:15 4:05 :P Jan 02 04:07:38 I should definitely go to bed soon .. Jan 02 04:08:12 http://des.truct.org/tmp/scratchbox-installed.png Jan 02 04:08:29 is this completely wrong? it's pretty frustrating trying to make scratchbox actually work Jan 02 04:08:37 run_me_first.sh isn't even *there* Jan 02 04:08:51 ive only been through it once to have a glance at m5 Jan 02 04:09:05 i do all dev directly on the tablet Jan 02 04:09:11 Heh Jan 02 04:09:27 Toba: you could download the vmware appliance. Jan 02 04:09:41 alterego, did you see the app launcher idea Jan 02 04:09:41 my vmware license shot itself Jan 02 04:09:48 free player Jan 02 04:09:51 lcuk? Jan 02 04:09:57 http://www.internettablettalk.com/forums/showthread.php?p=253958 Jan 02 04:10:47 i've followed some of the thoughts from the maemo ui improvement blog and am bringing them into liqbase type thinking :) Jan 02 04:10:48 Awesome :) Jan 02 04:11:05 lcuk: ahhhhh my eyes burn Jan 02 04:11:10 You run the maemo ui improv. blog? Jan 02 04:11:32 Toba, another vote for try just 'gcc' without the path. that error you got on the tablet is usually from trying to run an ELF executable that's not quite the right arch Jan 02 04:11:40 no, a guy called Andrew Zhilin (wazd) Jan 02 04:11:48 on the maemo? Jan 02 04:12:25 Ah, yes. I didn't think it was you :P Jan 02 04:12:28 Nokia-N810-51-3-Arkenstone:~# gcc hello.c Jan 02 04:12:28 hello.c:1:20: stdio.h: No such file or directory Jan 02 04:12:29 toba, too much information for you? if you have seen liqbase you will see the grid and elements are resizable and you can set comfortable resolution :) Jan 02 04:12:37 on the graffitiwall Jan 02 04:12:38 oh, lcuk I see. Jan 02 04:12:57 I don't have more than another 24megs free on / on my n810 Jan 02 04:12:58 its all been completely fluid and dynamic up to this point Jan 02 04:13:03 so I can't really install more things easily Jan 02 04:13:10 without worrying about running out. Jan 02 04:13:12 24M is plenty :) Jan 02 04:13:35 Not if he's installing build-essential it's not :P Jan 02 04:13:41 all I am really trying to do is compile this: https://bugs.maemo.org/attachment.cgi?id=687 Jan 02 04:13:51 I want to open pdf files from a shell script Jan 02 04:14:05 in osso_pdfviewer Jan 02 04:14:08 what are you guys smoking, i do full dev with lots of -dev libraries installed and still have room for other apps (sometimes :$) Jan 02 04:14:25 * alterego shudders. Jan 02 04:14:32 I don't know where I'd be without my scratchbox :P Jan 02 04:14:48 Toba, why are you trying to compile outside of scratchbox? Jan 02 04:14:58 because scratchbox doesn't want to work for me Jan 02 04:15:19 my mind shudders at the recursion, i prefer things simple Jan 02 04:15:38 i'm installing vmware-player on my desktop as was suggested Jan 02 04:15:45 lcuk, sometimes in order for things to be simple, they have to be really complex :) Jan 02 04:15:54 You could do it using dbus-send Toba Jan 02 04:15:59 ...how easy would it be? Jan 02 04:16:18 Fairly easy. Jan 02 04:16:19 actually, here's a better idea: want me to just compile that for you Toba? Jan 02 04:16:27 :D Jan 02 04:16:40 I'm not sure that's a better idea johnx :P Jan 02 04:16:44 i'm not either Jan 02 04:16:46 i may have to patch it Jan 02 04:16:56 and whatever software i develop, i need to be able to compile it myself Jan 02 04:16:56 johnx, imagine 12 months down the line being able to have users simply open a quick simple light ide from ANY computer, be it windows mac linux or whatever and just build stuff Jan 02 04:17:08 developers ^ Jan 02 04:17:12 heh Jan 02 04:17:27 12 months? Jan 02 04:17:32 What's happening in 12 months? Jan 02 04:17:40 has anyone triple booted the system (flash, SD card boot, nitroid); my tablet (n800/diablo) is currently set to boot from SD and am wondering if installing nitroid (3rd partition on sd card) will mess it up :) Jan 02 04:17:42 lcuk, sure. we'll just use virtualization. in 12 months computers will be fast enough. Jan 02 04:17:50 heh just a random "in the future" Jan 02 04:18:08 I already use virtualization. My computer goes like greased weazel shit. Jan 02 04:18:10 but a virtual tablet isnt the same Jan 02 04:18:20 sbrsh :P Jan 02 04:18:22 sshfs Jan 02 04:18:31 sshfs a touch interface? Jan 02 04:18:44 Toba, fair enough. I think the right answer is getting scratchbox installed then, rather than trying to build without it. We're willing to help you troubleshoot if you'd like. Jan 02 04:18:51 You don't _have_ to use scratchbox to test your programs :P Jan 02 04:19:10 lcuk; if you have a umpc or tablet computer Jan 02 04:19:36 lcuk, sshfs is everything that smb isn't Jan 02 04:19:36 but by the time you've opened an ssh channel, sent the file, executed it it finished building and ran natively Jan 02 04:19:52 b-man, got one, compile natively for x86 there Jan 02 04:20:08 still sat at my windows computer though Jan 02 04:20:23 heh Jan 02 04:21:01 windows desktop ide beats anything linuxy ive tried so far, xp is nice for mouse Jan 02 04:21:19 why would you want to use a mouse? Jan 02 04:21:26 Erm, sshfs means the files are accessible on the tablet as soon as they're compiled. Jan 02 04:21:29 but im getting used to having nice linux machines Jan 02 04:21:30 * johnx stares warily at his mouse Jan 02 04:21:33 i wonder how windows 7 will be like... Jan 02 04:21:35 johnx, gorilla arm Jan 02 04:21:35 All you need to use ssh for is executing the program .. Jan 02 04:21:45 And there's sbrsh :P Jan 02 04:21:49 ok I have Jan 02 04:21:50 DBUS_SESSION_BUS_ADDRESS=unix:path=/tmp/session_bus_socket,guid=ad9eee430b220449e5d5d100495d95ff Jan 02 04:21:50 DBUS_SESSION_BUS_PID=5518 Jan 02 04:21:51 Though I've not actually used that yet. Jan 02 04:21:52 a mouse driven ui wastes about 90% of the space when used with a pen Jan 02 04:21:58 how can I use this with dbus-send to talk to the program? Jan 02 04:22:16 and you end up having to be so precise its unrealy Jan 02 04:22:20 unreal Jan 02 04:22:27 anyway, 2 bed with me Jan 02 04:22:50 'night lcuk Jan 02 04:22:51 see ya! Jan 02 04:23:24 to be honest I prefer dcop Jan 02 04:23:25 to dbus Jan 02 04:23:33 it doesn't hurt my head Jan 02 04:23:56 yeah, dbus can be a little bit scary at times Jan 02 04:25:46 can any one help me with this; i just installed ubuntu on my N800 but even though it booted with allmost no errors, gdm refuses to launch. Jan 02 04:26:16 i'm using xserver-xorg. Jan 02 04:26:31 with omap drivers. Jan 02 04:26:43 can you run X manually? Jan 02 04:27:07 wow Jan 02 04:27:10 I feel like a jerk now Jan 02 04:27:20 I just realized that I can just install a different pdf viewer Jan 02 04:27:21 i could, but i dont have a keyboard to type anything in the console. Jan 02 04:27:27 instead of killing myself to talk to the built in one Jan 02 04:27:41 * Toba hangs head in shame. Jan 02 04:27:54 Toba, no worries. :) Jan 02 04:28:11 b-man, well, that would make things difficult. maybe ssh in? Jan 02 04:28:24 apt-get install evince Jan 02 04:28:29 that is all I needed Jan 02 04:28:33 thanks for your help, guys. Jan 02 04:28:39 i don't know how to use ssh. :P Jan 02 04:28:51 sad, isn't it... Jan 02 04:29:10 b-man, do you have wireless setup in ubuntu on your tablet? Jan 02 04:30:01 alternatively, can you plug your tablet in via usb to your desktop? if so you can use the "emergency telnet daemon" Jan 02 04:30:52 could i chroot in?, i don't have a working linux computer atm... Jan 02 04:31:13 :( Jan 02 04:31:31 ah, yeah. but you can't test X while chrooted Jan 02 04:32:17 is it possible to ssh in locally on my tablet? Jan 02 04:32:57 sure, but I don't see how that helps. it's the same as being in an x terminal Jan 02 04:35:37 i think i do have a fuew logs from the xserver, also i've noticed that xserver-xorg keeps falling back on "xorg.conf.failsafe - that might be the sorce of the issue. Jan 02 04:35:56 probably means it's crashing Jan 02 04:36:22 could i send you the logs va e-mail? Jan 02 04:36:34 just put them on pastebin.ca Jan 02 04:36:47 that way other people can have a look if they want Jan 02 04:37:40 i don't think my xchat has a pastebin plugin :P Jan 02 04:38:14 huh? but it has an email plugin? :P Jan 02 04:38:46 it has a file-transfer plugin - would that help? Jan 02 04:39:02 I don't think I can receive files from dcc Jan 02 04:39:09 I'm behind too many firewalls :/ Jan 02 04:40:31 oh, got to go - need to do some chores - see you in ah hour or so.. Jan 02 04:57:49 i'm back Jan 02 04:58:03 jhonx, you there? Jan 02 04:58:06 yup Jan 02 04:58:07 still here Jan 02 04:58:14 :) Jan 02 04:59:15 i'm trying to find an easy way to show you those logs... Jan 02 04:59:18 ;) Jan 02 04:59:28 they're on an sd card, right? Jan 02 04:59:38 yes Jan 02 05:00:03 in the ubuntu partition :) Jan 02 05:00:08 heh Jan 02 05:00:16 boot into maemo, open the log in text editor, copy into pastebin.ca . presto :) Jan 02 05:02:46 using my cdeb2ยป software to gain acsess to my ubuntu partition... Jan 02 05:07:38 jhonx; http://pastebin.ca/1298072 - my xorg log Jan 02 05:08:14 did you specify that you want to use omapfb driver in your xorg.conf? Jan 02 05:08:43 it's erroring out trying to load the "vesa" video driver...which it shouldn't try to load Jan 02 05:10:54 i actually used a xorg.conf from mer, witch included all of the specifications, but xorg refuses to use it and automaticly falls back on xorg.conf.failsafe and uses wron parameters. Jan 02 05:13:30 do you have the log from when X decides to use the xorg.conf.failsafe? Jan 02 05:14:48 that was the log... Jan 02 05:15:48 i think... Jan 02 05:15:48 usually what happens is that X fails to start and then it runs a new X server that uses the xorg.conf.failsafe Jan 02 05:16:06 hmmm Jan 02 05:17:29 do you have any other logs? Jan 02 05:17:29 i'll look Jan 02 05:17:54 and while you're at it, put up your xorg.conf . I wonder if you might be using an old xorg.conf or an old copy of the omapfb x driver Jan 02 05:18:07 esp. verbose .8 log Jan 02 05:18:53 should be in /var/log Jan 02 05:19:31 split city :P Jan 02 05:24:42 foomp Jan 02 05:25:27 pew pew Jan 02 05:31:15 woo, more :) Jan 02 05:34:42 how are so many people logging in/out at once!?!? - or am i going lonny :P Jan 02 05:35:29 heheh Jan 02 05:35:35 it's a netsplit Jan 02 05:35:59 btw, do we have an n8x0 build of ghc? (glasgow haskell compiler) Jan 02 05:36:25 i have no idia :P Jan 02 05:36:50 AStorm, I was really impressed how you commanded it to happen :D Jan 02 05:37:14 hehehe Jan 02 05:37:44 just a coincidence Jan 02 05:38:18 right. whatever you say. I'll just remember not to make you angry so you don't kick me off the internet O_o Jan 02 05:38:49 johnx, did you get those log files? - i mostly just packed up my /var/log directory in a .tar.gz Jan 02 05:39:15 (and a bit of future seeing) Jan 02 05:41:25 what gdm are you using? Jan 02 05:41:39 I recommend startx Jan 02 05:41:50 ::P Jan 02 05:42:02 AStorm, he has no keyboard, and no way to ssh or telnet Jan 02 05:42:12 whoops Jan 02 05:42:22 then timed startx in a script Jan 02 05:42:23 :) Jan 02 05:42:36 as long as he can flash Jan 02 05:42:47 the one that was installed when i installed ubuntu-desktop (gnome display manager) Jan 02 05:43:00 mhm, gdm Jan 02 05:43:11 it probably hijacks the log Jan 02 05:43:30 are you using one of the X packages from deblet? Jan 02 05:44:46 no, but i did install insserv for ubuntu. Jan 02 05:45:00 somehow you have xomap installed I think Jan 02 05:45:19 instead of xserver-xorg-video-omapfb Jan 02 05:45:39 i'll check synaptic.. hold on... Jan 02 05:45:50 yeah, search for anything omap Jan 02 05:46:57 er...maybe scratch that. it really looks like you have part of the gdm config to run xomap, but X is linked to Xorg Jan 02 05:47:18 again Jan 02 05:47:31 do we have a package of ghc for maemo? Jan 02 05:47:55 probably not Jan 02 05:48:46 with the exception of xorg omap drivers, nothing else Jan 02 05:49:09 no xomap-xserver Jan 02 05:49:50 ok, I was probably wrong on that. it looks like gdm is supplying the right options to run xomap, but is passing them Xorg Jan 02 05:49:51 that might have ben caused because i was running some apps from chroot in maemo. Jan 02 05:50:58 do you think it could be gdm-conf? Jan 02 05:51:14 yes, that's probably it. where did you get it from? Jan 02 05:51:27 from deblet :) Jan 02 05:51:31 :P Jan 02 05:51:35 hehehe Jan 02 05:52:08 why don't you just grab a Mer image? Jan 02 05:52:30 because mer doesn't have gdm.conf Jan 02 05:52:40 it uses hildon Jan 02 05:53:00 how will you use gdm without a keyboard? Jan 02 05:53:15 auto login :) Jan 02 05:53:31 in a sec, I'll have an alternative to gdm called auto-startx :) Jan 02 05:53:56 huh? Jan 02 05:54:14 it will run startx from init.d Jan 02 05:54:53 Mer's hildon plays nicer with other desktop environments than Nokia's hildon Jan 02 05:55:33 an init script Jan 02 05:55:35 :) Jan 02 05:55:59 think of it as a display manager replacement that always auto-logins as a certain user Jan 02 05:56:10 but in this case people can at least pick the user and desktop env it runs Jan 02 05:56:21 or easily replace it with gdm, kdm, wdm, xdm Jan 02 05:58:43 in fact, the goal is to have apt-get install gdm "do the right thing" (tm) from a default mer install Jan 02 06:00:33 so this script will automaticly log me in on console, startx, log me in on gnome, and drop me off at my desktop? Jan 02 06:00:45 that's the idea Jan 02 06:00:53 I'll see if it works in a sec :) Jan 02 06:01:03 really, please do steal ubuntu init Jan 02 06:01:04 :P Jan 02 06:01:09 huh? Jan 02 06:01:30 not sure I understand? does ubuntu have something that does this? Jan 02 06:03:36 god it's late; 1:02 am here :p Jan 02 06:03:56 well, then don't stay up waiting for my package Jan 02 06:04:03 it will be a bit yet Jan 02 06:04:08 k Jan 02 06:04:18 see you tomorrow ;) Jan 02 06:04:25 g'night Jan 02 06:04:34 'night :) Jan 02 06:11:17 johnx, as in, get rid of the broken maemo init Jan 02 06:11:26 :) Jan 02 06:11:33 yes Jan 02 06:11:45 it's done Jan 02 06:11:52 :) Jan 02 06:12:12 it will run the same way x-display-manager runs in debuntu Jan 02 06:12:18 as a bonus, you can use upstart properly Jan 02 06:13:01 is there a tutorial I could read on that? Jan 02 06:13:14 for now I'll be happy to just make it get into a desktop env Jan 02 06:13:53 no idea yet :) Jan 02 06:14:08 then it can wait til later I guess Jan 02 06:14:33 that should be easy to shoehorn in later in a "polishing" stage...maybe even by you? :D Jan 02 06:15:30 :) Jan 02 06:15:44 are you working on fremantle by any chance? Jan 02 06:16:17 in mer? largely Jan 02 06:16:40 but the fremantle pre-alpha-sdk mostly consists of a diablo-like environment Jan 02 06:16:48 no fancy-shmancy 3D stuff added yet Jan 02 06:16:49 hm Jan 02 06:16:52 just some version bumps Jan 02 07:57:49 morning Jan 02 07:57:55 mornin' Jan 02 08:34:06 moo johnx Jan 02 08:34:18 m00f RST38h Jan 02 08:34:38 moo all Jan 02 08:34:52 * konttori begins today his adobe flex tests Jan 02 08:48:29 reboot. Jan 02 08:48:35 no. Jan 02 08:48:52 don't. wanna. Jan 02 09:16:29 Morning, all Jan 02 09:21:45 mornin' Jaffa Jan 02 09:22:25 :\ Jan 02 09:22:27 not tired Jan 02 09:22:31 04:22:34 Jan 02 09:22:32 :\ Jan 02 09:23:01 I could try and bore you to sleep Jan 02 09:23:08 doesn't work Jan 02 09:23:12 I've already tried Jan 02 09:32:18 lolz Jan 02 09:40:24 Vulcanis, read the debian new package maintainers guide Jan 02 09:40:35 if you don't fall asleep you can start packaging things for extras :D Jan 02 09:40:50 johnx: link? Jan 02 09:40:55 I'll read it during school Jan 02 09:41:05 I can't actually code, so I might as well do something else useful Jan 02 09:41:21 http://www.debian.org/doc/maint-guide/ Jan 02 09:41:27 it really will help you sleep :) Jan 02 09:41:33 it won't, but thats ok Jan 02 09:41:38 its more entertaining than what I was doing Jan 02 09:41:41 but I'm saving it for school Jan 02 09:41:53 when theres nothing else to do. Except learn, I guess, but no one really teaches Jan 02 09:41:58 its review for fscking midterms Jan 02 09:42:59 fucking midterms? O_o sounds interesting to me? how is it scored? Jan 02 09:43:32 Stamina, I would guess. Jan 02 09:44:07 typical. no one ever appreciates unique style Jan 02 09:45:58 they're midterms, what do you expect? Jan 02 09:46:27 thats like saying "Typical, SATs don't ever grade on the quality of the cat you make on the bubblesheet" Jan 02 09:46:45 but it was such a great picture! Jan 02 09:46:47 * johnx sulks Jan 02 09:46:58 ...had dithering too... :/ Jan 02 09:48:01 Can SAT scores affect you after you get into college? Jan 02 09:48:04 I don't think so... Jan 02 09:48:09 so after I'm in, I should go back Jan 02 09:48:12 pay the 80 or whatever Jan 02 09:48:15 and answer all Cs Jan 02 09:48:17 and see my score Jan 02 09:48:36 see if you can prove whether there's correlation or not? Jan 02 09:49:02 no, I just have a feeling I'll get a 75% of 2600 or whatever the new score is Jan 02 09:49:29 so nice to have escaped with only taking the two tests Jan 02 09:49:34 even if the essay part is just "Cccc Cc Cccc: c Ccc cc Cccc. cccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccc" Jan 02 09:49:50 I only took one, and it was horrid Jan 02 09:50:08 by two I mean math and verbal Jan 02 09:50:12 ah Jan 02 09:50:26 I don't see the point in this next semester Jan 02 09:50:31 I'll relearn it all in college Jan 02 09:51:37 do it now and then you can screw around in college while everyone has to work Jan 02 09:51:39 that's the point Jan 02 09:52:02 :P Jan 02 09:52:10 not really Jan 02 09:52:22 and maybe have a shot at a better paid job Jan 02 09:52:27 just maybe Jan 02 09:52:44 s/better// Jan 02 09:52:55 fixed it for you :) Jan 02 09:53:05 better Jan 02 09:53:08 ;) Jan 02 09:53:50 well, try to get into IT industry w/o degree Jan 02 09:53:55 I wish you luck. Jan 02 09:54:00 my point was the opposite :P Jan 02 09:54:05 but actually I did Jan 02 09:54:09 hm? Jan 02 09:54:15 probably in the US? Jan 02 09:54:29 my point was "try to get a paid job w/o degree in this eceonomy" Jan 02 09:54:37 but yes, in the US Jan 02 09:54:38 here it's impossible unless you have conections Jan 02 09:54:40 ah Jan 02 09:55:01 yes, a bit hard Jan 02 09:55:10 and degrees are overrated Jan 02 09:55:16 I had 3 years of experience as a linux sysadmin before I was out of high school Jan 02 09:55:20 helped for sure :) Jan 02 09:55:26 heh Jan 02 09:55:32 sysadmin for whom? :P Jan 02 09:55:37 the school Jan 02 09:55:40 ahaha Jan 02 09:55:43 heh Jan 02 09:55:51 myself I set up their server Jan 02 09:55:56 I'd get called out of class to fix shit :) Jan 02 09:55:58 and admined it and net for 3y too Jan 02 09:56:08 but, this country is a stuck up b*tch Jan 02 09:56:23 and they won't hire a sysadmin w/o a degree Jan 02 09:56:27 :P Jan 02 09:56:39 hard to get anywhere without a degree here either, but getting a degree here is easier than in the US for sure Jan 02 09:56:40 idiot managers Jan 02 09:56:47 yup Jan 02 09:56:51 same here Jan 02 09:57:04 but I'm now required to get 2mo of work experience... Jan 02 09:57:09 in the field Jan 02 09:57:15 w/o any degree Jan 02 09:57:20 to get the engineer one Jan 02 09:57:22 :P Jan 02 09:57:30 catch 22 Jan 02 09:57:31 win :) Jan 02 09:58:15 did you put your experience in high school on your cv/resume/job app? Jan 02 09:58:19 I'll apply for a cushy spot in a cert company Jan 02 09:58:32 johnx, I'm yet to send it, I will obviously Jan 02 09:59:04 good. some people forget the whole "work experience" != "job experience" Jan 02 09:59:08 johnx, the trick is hat companies are refunded for our "practice" Jan 02 09:59:20 hat companies? Jan 02 09:59:44 even then not many want us poor uni students Jan 02 09:59:44 :P Jan 02 09:59:45 pictures AStorm sewing baseball caps :) Jan 02 10:00:01 *that Jan 02 10:00:21 they just have to run these short practices Jan 02 10:00:44 or may even just hire a student, they'll get refunded 2 months Jan 02 10:00:52 ah, probably not the quality of the workers so much as the fact that 2 months is barely enough to make most people productive Jan 02 10:00:57 but of course, no, it's too much bother Jan 02 10:01:01 yup Jan 02 10:01:14 and nobody wants a student Jan 02 10:01:22 or even an intern w/o a degree Jan 02 10:01:41 talk about our uni being disadvantaged Jan 02 10:01:49 I was somewhat lucky to be starting into the "real world" job market before the current economy Jan 02 10:02:19 heh yeah Jan 02 10:02:31 would have been awesome to start in 95/96 instead of 05/06 Jan 02 10:02:43 .com fun Jan 02 10:03:15 AStorm: try to get to know the right people Jan 02 10:03:16 I'd be dictating from my marble throne what interms should type into my IRC client Jan 02 10:03:30 AStorm: or scoring freelance gigs Jan 02 10:04:33 freelancing w/o a degree is impossible here Jan 02 10:04:36 :P Jan 02 10:04:43 AStorm: you're on the internet Jan 02 10:04:47 fun,eh? Jan 02 10:04:49 it's not impossible :) Jan 02 10:04:55 AStorm: i don't have a degree.. Jan 02 10:05:03 yup, if you tell me who will hire a programmer Jan 02 10:05:11 well, what can you do Jan 02 10:05:22 I can't do weeb design :P Jan 02 10:05:25 *web Jan 02 10:05:41 plenty easy to get shady php jobs from shady forums ;) Jan 02 10:05:55 shady = not counting as work experience Jan 02 10:06:02 money is not a problem just yet Jan 02 10:06:57 because I got one shady job writing DVDRW firmware some time ago :P Jan 02 10:07:12 that's awesome Jan 02 10:07:24 but, it was shady, so nobody knows :P Jan 02 10:07:38 which friggin sucks Jan 02 10:08:05 * johnx remembers installing hacked firmware on his first DVD drive. skeery stuff :) Jan 02 10:08:30 funny assembly for oldie chips Jan 02 10:08:50 you'd wonder what old hardware is still in use in embeddeed Jan 02 10:09:10 I don't wonder. I know Jan 02 10:09:29 z80? :P Jan 02 10:09:35 I believe it Jan 02 10:09:42 why upgrade if you don't have to? Jan 02 10:09:53 actually, 8051 family Jan 02 10:09:57 [05:03:24] I'd be dictating from my marble throne what interms should type into my IRC client -- until 2000, when you're out on the streets begging for money to pay your 56k habit Jan 02 10:09:57 :P Jan 02 10:10:24 that's why I got a laugh when our uni had 8051 programming course Jan 02 10:10:38 *when I noticed Jan 02 10:10:43 Vulcanis, true. the past ain't what it used to be and/or the past sucks Jan 02 10:10:58 johnx: No, it was amazing until the bubble burst Jan 02 10:11:07 new old tech chips are great Jan 02 10:11:19 tiny, power efficient. indestructible Jan 02 10:11:20 I just want a job after college Jan 02 10:11:27 Vulcanis, but amazing at 56K. no youtube, no rss, no decent ARM linux devices Jan 02 10:11:34 Vulcanis, a job... easy Jan 02 10:11:43 AStorm: Not if the US economy keeps up Jan 02 10:11:46 Vulcanis, what kind of life is that? really? Jan 02 10:11:46 fine Jan 02 10:11:48 a decent job Jan 02 10:12:00 Vulcanis, now, that's different Jan 02 10:12:00 John: One with animated gifs instead of youtube...? Jan 02 10:12:15 even all your base wasn't until after 2000, right? Jan 02 10:12:21 well Jan 02 10:12:21 johnx, no, with Flash 1.0 Jan 02 10:12:22 it was Jan 02 10:12:22 and java Jan 02 10:12:29 but the meme never actually came up until around 98 Jan 02 10:12:34 97-99ish Jan 02 10:12:51 Ah, 97 Jan 02 10:12:56 back when quicktime was a windows thang Jan 02 10:13:01 hehe Jan 02 10:13:10 I started at 96 myself Jan 02 10:13:30 and at 95 Poland got connected to the Internet in a real commercial way Jan 02 10:13:33 :P Jan 02 10:13:47 as in popular dialup Jan 02 10:14:06 get a backseat, right? :P Jan 02 10:14:22 mp3 was all the rage Jan 02 10:15:26 I miss napster Jan 02 10:15:39 haha Jan 02 10:15:46 nevr got to use it Jan 02 10:16:06 mp3 is still 'all the rage' Jan 02 10:16:16 if you can fit 1000000000 songs on 32gb Jan 02 10:16:22 fasttrack grew and died too Jan 02 10:16:31 Vulcanis, no, now it's common Jan 02 10:16:50 Ah, I guess your right Jan 02 10:17:03 back then a netbook was a pda Jan 02 10:17:18 and had no net Jan 02 10:17:18 didn't fasttrack die cos many people got terribly sick of the adware? :P Jan 02 10:17:22 oh gods Jan 02 10:17:30 no wifi. wired internet on laptops Jan 02 10:17:31 and bittorrent came along Jan 02 10:17:36 what the hell did people do back then?! Jan 02 10:17:46 IR :D Jan 02 10:17:55 IR didn't really work for webbernets Jan 02 10:18:07 * johnx can IRDA to his phone from his zaurus Jan 02 10:18:16 aptops? far too expensive back then Jan 02 10:18:21 *laptops Jan 02 10:18:26 laptops were not! Jan 02 10:18:33 we had a 1500 business laptop from dell Jan 02 10:18:37 it was built like a brick Jan 02 10:18:37 maybe in the US Jan 02 10:18:44 a fragile, plastic brick Jan 02 10:18:54 1500USD Jan 02 10:18:55 Vulcanis, and it wasn't expensive? Jan 02 10:18:57 we got to build machines ourselves due to prices Jan 02 10:19:02 Johnx: Not for what laptops were Jan 02 10:19:09 * Stskeeps prefers building machines too Jan 02 10:19:23 and it was about double a desktop back then Jan 02 10:19:30 building machines = cheaper and better Jan 02 10:19:30 1500 $ of '95 was back then 4x local salary Jan 02 10:19:35 good one too Jan 02 10:19:42 or more Jan 02 10:23:15 I link this every time the past comes up: http://web.archive.org/web/19970108031014/www.coupland.com/story7.htm Jan 02 10:25:17 paris was good Jan 02 10:25:26 try Poland or Russia at the time Jan 02 10:25:28 :P Jan 02 10:25:54 you could at least meet Lavoisier :P Jan 02 10:26:52 and then die of tuberculosis at the age of 30! woo! Jan 02 10:27:09 better than dying of starvation Jan 02 10:27:14 :P Jan 02 10:27:36 or better yet: not dying of either... Jan 02 10:27:40 yes, past was sucky until XX century Jan 02 10:28:16 the 20th? Jan 02 10:28:38 like, at worst 1880s or so, England Jan 02 10:28:46 the late 20th century was marginally bearable Jan 02 10:28:58 the early was ok too Jan 02 10:29:18 with major improvements in most parts of world Jan 02 10:29:23 or maybe, a few :P Jan 02 10:29:31 mostly US and GB Jan 02 10:29:32 doctors were still more likely to kill you than fix you Jan 02 10:29:33 what's a good command line editor for maemo? Jan 02 10:29:36 nano/vim are not found? Jan 02 10:29:41 johnx, whatever Jan 02 10:29:48 but hygiene was finally existent Jan 02 10:29:51 vim should be there Jan 02 10:29:55 bakarat, nano should be available Jan 02 10:30:03 vi is there Jan 02 10:30:06 from busybox Jan 02 10:30:15 vi is ebil Jan 02 10:30:22 vim is 19 fucking mb last I saw, though Jan 02 10:30:39 the package , atleast Jan 02 10:30:44 you can install nano and vim Jan 02 10:30:51 yes, so what? Jan 02 10:30:57 it's *the* editor Jan 02 10:30:59 huge :( Jan 02 10:31:07 i'll see if i can find nano hehe :> Jan 02 10:31:27 nano is bad due to ctrl+foo binds Jan 02 10:31:44 I use nano, if it ever got soft line wrapping it'd be good Jan 02 10:31:46 and hildon-i-m not having sticky ctrl Jan 02 10:32:03 well Jan 02 10:32:08 xterm has the ctrl thing Jan 02 10:32:18 which sucks :) Jan 02 10:32:23 i actually like the ctrl binds in nano Jan 02 10:32:26 its better than nothing Jan 02 10:32:30 might be slightly more annoying on the nokia device though hehe Jan 02 10:32:35 you won't with the nokia Jan 02 10:32:35 yeah Jan 02 10:32:38 vim is better than that Jan 02 10:32:52 just hold down ctrl then Jan 02 10:32:57 these 19 MB is not all that much Jan 02 10:33:03 mavhc, yeah right Jan 02 10:33:18 also, vim here now supports touchscreen some Jan 02 10:33:31 can switch tabs with clicks, and select text Jan 02 10:33:53 and have colorful syntax highlighting Jan 02 10:34:59 a win for me, now can really write code on the move Jan 02 10:35:12 (with a modified keymap) Jan 02 10:38:19 I wonder how long it will be until someone really gets a mobile computer right... Jan 02 10:38:45 n810 is mostly right Jan 02 10:38:47 :) Jan 02 10:38:59 we need a foldable keyboard and screen Jan 02 10:39:26 materials aren't there yet Jan 02 10:39:30 a little more expandability, more power and more battery life at full load Jan 02 10:40:00 battery life is fairly good, but those everun umpcs were much better Jan 02 10:40:02 psion's series 5 had the best keyboard Jan 02 10:40:07 though too large Jan 02 10:40:30 mavhc, hmm, no, this e60/n810 one is almost as good Jan 02 10:41:13 this part Nokia got right Jan 02 10:41:29 (except dpad and menu key :P) Jan 02 10:41:54 battery life at full load isn't quite there yet, IMHO. 2 hours of really high usage is a little short Jan 02 10:42:02 2h? meh Jan 02 10:42:10 I have 5h at worst Jan 02 10:42:23 what are you doing with it to get 2h? Jan 02 10:42:30 web browsing Jan 02 10:42:32 quake/dn3d Jan 02 10:42:34 >.> Jan 02 10:42:35 psion 5 was the full size of the device as it was clamshell Jan 02 10:42:38 but my battery is probably on the way out Jan 02 10:42:42 johnx: brightness settings? Jan 02 10:42:46 even movies don't eat it that fast Jan 02 10:42:54 20% usually Jan 02 10:42:59 web browsing with bt gives 7h Jan 02 10:42:59 yeah Jan 02 10:43:02 I run it at 10 :\ Jan 02 10:43:11 and I get like, 4-6 browsing Jan 02 10:43:12 I run at 20% Jan 02 10:43:16 also, my battery is coming up on 2 years Jan 02 10:43:24 ah, old one Jan 02 10:43:29 time for a new one I suppose :/ Jan 02 10:43:31 mine's still new Jan 02 10:43:49 you've lost 50% capacity or more Jan 02 10:43:55 why are batteries so freaking expensive? >_< Jan 02 10:44:06 because they're expensive to make Jan 02 10:44:10 :P Jan 02 10:44:22 bare Li-ion cells are cheap Jan 02 10:44:30 not that small cells Jan 02 10:44:37 also, n810's is li-poly Jan 02 10:45:00 bleh. I'll cut a hole in the cover and attach a camcorder battery. Jan 02 10:45:02 note, these are prismatic cells, not standard packs Jan 02 10:45:06 battery life problems: solved Jan 02 10:45:10 :P Jan 02 10:45:15 weight problem added Jan 02 10:45:20 and size too Jan 02 10:45:21 better grip Jan 02 10:45:28 worse imo Jan 02 10:45:41 and hands would hurt Jan 02 10:45:50 "tablet claw" :) Jan 02 10:45:53 it's heavy enough as it is Jan 02 10:46:30 2 years of battery usage for $15, that's not expensive Jan 02 10:46:40 $15 for a real Nokia battery? Jan 02 10:46:41 $15? where? Jan 02 10:46:56 or even a 3rd part one that I have a reasonable expectation of working Jan 02 10:47:22 more like $40, isn't it? Jan 02 10:47:26 $50 is plausible Jan 02 10:47:27 yes Jan 02 10:47:32 dunno, just asked froogle Jan 02 10:47:52 ooh, seeing a bp-5l for $30. might have to pick that up Jan 02 10:48:01 :P Jan 02 10:48:21 see, I've bp-4l Jan 02 10:49:02 how many mAh should it be? Jan 02 10:49:18 1200 or so? Jan 02 10:49:19 bp-5l is 1500mAh Jan 02 10:49:25 1150 I think Jan 02 10:49:30 ah Jan 02 10:49:31 right Jan 02 10:49:33 my bad Jan 02 10:49:39 so bp-4l is the same Jan 02 10:49:48 is it? Jan 02 10:49:52 just smaller and more sturdy Jan 02 10:49:59 I can check Jan 02 10:50:01 hmm...maybe that's not right Jan 02 10:50:03 one sec Jan 02 10:50:33 <`Mace> wow Jan 02 10:50:40 <`Mace> i love android Jan 02 10:51:09 <`Mace> it really is pretty good Jan 02 10:51:38 meh Jan 02 10:51:43 how's it feel in terms of screen refreshes? Jan 02 10:52:03 <`Mace> i dont notice it Jan 02 10:52:13 <`Mace> im on it now Jan 02 10:52:29 <`Mace> well.. on my g1/htc dream Jan 02 10:52:38 someone said that android apps, being in java, not native, would always be slower Jan 02 10:52:40 aaah, I see. thought you meant on a tablet Jan 02 10:53:10 <`Mace> well.. they seem to run fine to me Jan 02 10:53:47 mavhc, not necessarily with thnat jazelle stuf we have Jan 02 10:53:51 <`Mace> i mean. what would they have to compare it to? ;) Jan 02 10:54:17 not a whole lot slower at least Jan 02 10:54:24 <`Mace> wish i could run it on my n800 Jan 02 10:54:35 <`Mace> g1 is pretty nice tho Jan 02 10:54:59 jazelle apparently a) wouldn't make a huge difference and b) probably won't ever be used under linux until licensing changes Jan 02 10:55:08 <`Mace> i think mostly due to the os and qwerty Jan 02 10:55:16 `Mace, look up NITdroid Jan 02 10:55:40 <`Mace> other than that it's flimsy Jan 02 10:56:01 johnx, linux license? why? Jan 02 10:56:10 <`Mace> my n800 became kind of irrilavent Jan 02 10:56:37 AStorm, something about them never wanting the source to get out Jan 02 10:56:38 <`Mace> johnx . nitdroid? Jan 02 10:56:49 http://guug.org/nit/nitdroid/ Jan 02 10:56:52 `Mace, android for the n8x0 Jan 02 10:56:56 johnx, who? sun? Jan 02 10:57:05 <`Mace> does it work? Jan 02 10:57:15 <`Mace> ;) Jan 02 10:57:19 as jazelle is not microcoded Jan 02 10:57:39 `Mace, if it didn't, I don't think it would be much of a project ;) Jan 02 10:57:39 AStorm, it's not really java-specific. it's whoever licenses the jazelle tech. Jan 02 10:57:50 ARM inc. Jan 02 10:58:05 <`Mace> haha Jan 02 10:58:07 no, jazelle is just a way to run bytecode directly on cpu Jan 02 10:58:12 at least some Jan 02 10:58:15 <`Mace> sounds awesome Jan 02 10:58:23 a bunch of microcode Jan 02 10:58:35 <`Mace> ill check it out soon Jan 02 10:58:50 AStorm, well there's probably a good reason that google isn't using it... Jan 02 10:58:55 apis are public, the microcode is not Jan 02 10:59:10 they aren't, because they don't have a right vm Jan 02 10:59:18 they'd have to buy one Jan 02 10:59:23 or write one:P Jan 02 10:59:42 which is a fairly large project Jan 02 10:59:42 they've strung ASM throughout that VM. writing one is not the problem Jan 02 10:59:50 hm Jan 02 10:59:57 they might be using it Jan 02 11:00:05 partially at least Jan 02 11:00:28 the big part is reducing cost of call stack handling Jan 02 11:00:30 they're not Jan 02 11:00:35 as of nov 12 Jan 02 11:00:57 I can find the quote on licensing if you want. just a sec Jan 02 11:00:59 maybe they found it not faster than usual native arm asm Jan 02 11:01:04 gimme Jan 02 11:01:55 johnx, now I have 4h to go :> Jan 02 11:02:11 my cell phone tether will die before n810 Jan 02 11:02:52 once i download some maps, is there a way for me to plot a route on the n810? Jan 02 11:02:57 (using maemo mapper) Jan 02 11:03:04 sure Jan 02 11:03:12 i mean can i say like "from this street/city to this street/city"? Jan 02 11:03:14 you can even store the route Jan 02 11:03:16 <`Mace> hm Jan 02 11:03:17 yes Jan 02 11:03:21 AStorm, how? Jan 02 11:03:25 <`Mace> seems interesting Jan 02 11:03:30 it's in the menu Jan 02 11:03:35 atm all i can find to enter a route is a single text field that doesn't allow for streets it seems? Jan 02 11:03:43 use a comma Jan 02 11:03:44 :P Jan 02 11:03:48 ah? :D Jan 02 11:03:53 it uses Google Maps syntax Jan 02 11:04:04 i've never extensively used google maps :D Jan 02 11:04:06 <`Mace> well.. g1 replaced the n800 for mobile use Jan 02 11:04:10 anything Google Maps will take, it will too Jan 02 11:04:20 well that's good to know :D Jan 02 11:04:22 `Mace, how's battery life? Jan 02 11:04:27 once my new batch of maps is in, i will give it a whirl AStorm :D Jan 02 11:04:28 <`Mace> guess i can still use the n800 at home Jan 02 11:04:32 <`Mace> good Jan 02 11:04:39 getting through a whole day with it? Jan 02 11:04:40 also, if i tell it to download another area of maps...will it remove the previous area? Jan 02 11:04:43 or will it append? Jan 02 11:04:57 bakarat, example: London, Leicester Sq. Jan 02 11:05:03 <`Mace> lol Jan 02 11:05:07 can give it a number too Jan 02 11:05:13 nice :D Jan 02 11:05:18 <`Mace> 5 to 6 hrs of hard use Jan 02 11:05:34 <`Mace> uses usb cbl to charge tho Jan 02 11:05:41 `Mace, nice Jan 02 11:05:43 <`Mace> so that helps Jan 02 11:05:49 how's the text input? Jan 02 11:06:03 real keyboard? Jan 02 11:06:04 <`Mace> pretty good Jan 02 11:06:16 <`Mace> 5 row qwerty Jan 02 11:06:20 btw, is there a way to speed up the gps fix? Jan 02 11:06:22 nice Jan 02 11:06:25 it's slow beyond comprehension :| Jan 02 11:06:34 bakarat, install agps app from repos Jan 02 11:06:41 ah thanks :D Jan 02 11:06:41 it will help a bit Jan 02 11:06:42 <`Mace> buttons need some getting used to Jan 02 11:06:47 the first gps fix my n810 ever got took 24h+ :D Jan 02 11:06:51 nowadays its not so slow Jan 02 11:06:53 but the problem is sucky GPS chip Jan 02 11:06:57 and poor antenna Jan 02 11:07:01 <`Mace> interface is beautifuk Jan 02 11:07:05 <`Mace> er Jan 02 11:07:09 <`Mace> k/l Jan 02 11:07:10 it will take 1-3min Jan 02 11:07:11 AStorm: gps for gps Jan 02 11:07:15 AStorm, only extra repository i got enabled is "extra's" atm Jan 02 11:07:16 n810 for n810 things Jan 02 11:07:18 is it in one of those repo's? Jan 02 11:07:29 Vulcanis, no, Google Satellite ftw Jan 02 11:07:32 bakarat: It is in the tableteer repo. Jan 02 11:07:37 bakarat, in extras Jan 02 11:07:39 bakarat: Which is enabled by default. Jan 02 11:07:42 <`Mace> i almost wish there were an android wm for X Jan 02 11:07:52 odd Jan 02 11:07:52 AStorm, can't find a quote from google, but the word seems to be that ARM won't release info on how to initialize jazelle rct to any open source group Jan 02 11:07:58 X-Fade, in tableteer now? mmh Jan 02 11:08:00 <`Mace> well.. bbl Jan 02 11:08:07 AStorm: Never been in Extras. Jan 02 11:08:13 X-Fade, AStorm the package itself is called "agps" right? Jan 02 11:08:16 johnx, NDA fail, damn Jan 02 11:08:21 agps-beta Jan 02 11:08:22 bakarat: agps-ui Jan 02 11:08:29 or that Jan 02 11:08:32 whatever Jan 02 11:08:37 search for it Jan 02 11:08:39 :) Jan 02 11:08:44 o right, has search option Jan 02 11:08:46 lol :P Jan 02 11:08:47 sorry :P Jan 02 11:09:03 AStorm, word also seems to be that it's not as much of an improvement as you'd think. mainly helps with startup time or somesuch Jan 02 11:09:10 bakarat: A-GPS in AM. Jan 02 11:09:19 johnx, meh Jan 02 11:09:47 AStorm, rest assured, google would have done it if it was worth it. Jan 02 11:10:01 "no matches found" AStorm :s Jan 02 11:10:13 try a-gps Jan 02 11:10:31 "no matches found" :( Jan 02 11:10:39 because I'm in redpill (yeah, bleeding edge and all) Jan 02 11:10:46 baka Jan 02 11:10:57 bakarat, check if you have tableteer repo enabled Jan 02 11:11:03 jo Jan 02 11:11:06 also, is a-gps available for chinook? Jan 02 11:11:09 yo woglinde Jan 02 11:11:14 AStorm: no Jan 02 11:11:14 eww, chinook Jan 02 11:11:17 I know it's for diablo Jan 02 11:11:24 bakarat, ^ Jan 02 11:11:30 Diablo only. Jan 02 11:11:33 so, you need diablo Jan 02 11:11:38 "nokia catalogue", "nokia catalogue (3rd party software)" "nokia system software udpates" "maemo extras" Jan 02 11:11:43 update the OS first Jan 02 11:11:52 bakarat: It is in the first one. Jan 02 11:11:52 how do i do that? Jan 02 11:12:16 you download latest diablo image, nokia flasher etc. Jan 02 11:12:20 there's a guide somewhere Jan 02 11:12:23 o :| Jan 02 11:12:27 google it :) Jan 02 11:12:31 was hoping for apt-get dist-upgrade or something :D Jan 02 11:12:32 ~flashing Jan 02 11:12:33 rumour has it, flashing is http://wiki.maemo.org/Updating_the_tablet_firmware Jan 02 11:12:36 are you on windows, baka? Jan 02 11:12:38 yup Jan 02 11:12:46 because windows makes it trivial Jan 02 11:12:46 Vulcanis, linux Jan 02 11:12:48 windows flasher can flash it too Jan 02 11:12:54 linux is simple too Jan 02 11:13:02 one command shouldn't scare anyone Jan 02 11:13:02 well then baka, you have to go through like six more steps, but its not terribad Jan 02 11:13:04 :P Jan 02 11:13:09 six? Jan 02 11:13:14 2 Jan 02 11:13:20 well unless it's absolutly necessary, i'd rather not reflash :D Jan 02 11:13:29 oh, 3, need a chmod +x :P Jan 02 11:13:29 i just got the device almost to the point where it has to be :D Jan 02 11:13:37 just gotta update the gps thing a bit if at all possible :p Jan 02 11:13:41 bakarat, it is necessary Jan 02 11:13:56 AStorm, do i lose extra applications/settings etc? :| Jan 02 11:13:59 hopefully the last reflash needed Jan 02 11:14:02 a reflash sounds...so terminal :| Jan 02 11:14:15 bakarat: Just run the backup utility. Jan 02 11:14:16 settings you can back up Jan 02 11:14:32 does that include all the apps? :D Jan 02 11:14:36 some apps you'll probably have to reinstall Jan 02 11:14:42 :) Jan 02 11:14:54 bakarat: On diablo it automatically reinstall all your apps after flash. Jan 02 11:15:00 it will attempt to install them for you Jan 02 11:15:11 and the repository hell has cleared up since chinook Jan 02 11:15:11 and fail at it :P Jan 02 11:15:17 yes Jan 02 11:15:27 hopefully it'll work fine Jan 02 11:15:37 most things worth having are really in extras or extras-devel now Jan 02 11:15:50 or in maemo devel Jan 02 11:16:01 uhm, maemo tools Jan 02 11:16:21 gah don't want to lose my setup (spent the last 2 days tweaking most of it :'() Jan 02 11:16:41 why didn't you update before tweaking? Jan 02 11:16:48 you probably won't Jan 02 11:17:17 yeah, should've read the RSS Jan 02 11:17:33 i thought the n810 shipped with the latest :P Jan 02 11:17:35 i was s owrong :'( Jan 02 11:17:46 nothing ever ships with the latest Jan 02 11:17:54 and again, i'm used to "apt-get dist-upgrade" :D Jan 02 11:17:56 not "reflash" :D Jan 02 11:18:02 almost nothing :> Jan 02 11:18:05 diablo is the last reflash Jan 02 11:18:08 so i didn't think it would wipe everything i've done so far :D Jan 02 11:18:14 there are usually about 2-3 months between the software being frozen and the devices actually hitting the shelves Jan 02 11:18:15 bakarat: Go to diablo and it is your last reflash. Jan 02 11:18:15 after that it's update from inside app manager Jan 02 11:18:23 bakarat, dist-upgrade is possible in diablo now :) Jan 02 11:18:27 yay :p Jan 02 11:18:34 but app manager can do full os upgrade now Jan 02 11:18:43 the first devices off the production line always have some embarrassing buggy crap software, the first point release is pretty much required to make it even vaguely usable :) Jan 02 11:18:47 which is really dist-upgrade :P Jan 02 11:19:02 :> Jan 02 11:19:05 Robot101, well, mine shipped with fairly ok chinook version Jan 02 11:19:17 though not latest Jan 02 11:19:20 except that if you enable weird repos and try to dist-upgrade you may be in trouble Jan 02 11:19:22 well it will have to wait at least until the maps are in :P Jan 02 11:19:23 and some S60 phones stay buggy and crap even after you've reflashed them :D Jan 02 11:19:29 200 meg over wifi on the n810 takes aaaaaaaaaaaaaaages Jan 02 11:20:04 johnx, but the same can be told about app manager updatge :> Jan 02 11:20:23 bakarat, why? it can easily do 5-11Mbit Jan 02 11:20:31 AStorm, it's generally more likely to succeed than dist-upgrade Jan 02 11:20:31 AStorm, i have no clue :| Jan 02 11:20:32 that's nowhere near ages Jan 02 11:20:52 and you have to flash from the PC using usb cable Jan 02 11:21:08 AStorm, ye but the device is still busy :p Jan 02 11:21:09 local flash messes up always for me Jan 02 11:21:11 :P Jan 02 11:21:13 i installed iptraf to try and check the speed Jan 02 11:21:22 but...i can't find the app atm :p Jan 02 11:21:26 mhm Jan 02 11:21:35 run it from terminal, as root Jan 02 11:21:44 -sh: iptraf: not found Jan 02 11:21:47 it's /usr/sbin/iptraf Jan 02 11:21:57 also, as I said, you need root Jan 02 11:22:02 righty-o Jan 02 11:22:12 this program requires a screen size of at least 80 columns by 24 lines :| Jan 02 11:22:17 hmmz :| Jan 02 11:22:50 reduce font size then Jan 02 11:22:59 how do i do that? Jan 02 11:23:03 I normally use 14pt Jan 02 11:23:13 try zoom key for simple way Jan 02 11:23:23 and options for a permanent change Jan 02 11:23:23 o Jan 02 11:23:39 hmm Jan 02 11:23:47 I'm using 12pt actually Jan 02 11:23:56 hmm, the zoom thing isn't working i think Jan 02 11:24:01 DejaVu Sans Mono 12 ftw Jan 02 11:24:02 i've zoomed out to something that is near illegible Jan 02 11:24:04 still doesn't work :| Jan 02 11:24:13 run reset Jan 02 11:24:27 (in the terminal) Jan 02 11:24:33 o wait, got it now Jan 02 11:24:40 it's incomprehensibly small now though :D Jan 02 11:24:54 so increase by a step Jan 02 11:25:04 or use Tools_>Settings Jan 02 11:25:32 40.20 kb/s Jan 02 11:25:38 33.4 Jan 02 11:25:43 :| Jan 02 11:25:53 weird Jan 02 11:26:04 maybe nokia's server is overloaded Jan 02 11:26:11 or your route is bad :P Jan 02 11:26:17 it should be downloading from the openstreet maps thingy right? Jan 02 11:26:23 hm? Jan 02 11:26:28 i'm downloading maps? Jan 02 11:26:38 weird Jan 02 11:26:40 bout 200 megs worth of them Jan 02 11:26:43 unless you're moving Jan 02 11:26:58 not really :| Jan 02 11:27:08 or set a manual download Jan 02 11:27:15 nop Jan 02 11:27:21 then close mapper Jan 02 11:27:26 I blame your router Jan 02 11:27:32 i'd rather not, he's bout 3/4 through it now :D Jan 02 11:27:46 you don't want that many maps Jan 02 11:27:50 johnx, i use the same wireless connection on 2 laptops Jan 02 11:27:52 no problem Jan 02 11:27:55 (both laptops are off atm :p) Jan 02 11:28:04 your laptops don't use wifi powersaving as much Jan 02 11:28:09 it will work slow (as mapper is inefficient at handling a large number of maps) Jan 02 11:28:14 o :| Jan 02 11:28:16 crap :( Jan 02 11:28:24 but i need to travel within a certain area for my job Jan 02 11:28:27 so i wanted that area :( Jan 02 11:28:30 you want to download ondemand Jan 02 11:28:37 or you can download along a route Jan 02 11:28:39 :) Jan 02 11:28:51 also, you probably don't need all zoom levels Jan 02 11:28:52 download on demand is not possible (i think) since i don't have internet on the road Jan 02 11:28:58 mhm Jan 02 11:29:00 download along a route is all fine n dandy until you stray :D Jan 02 11:29:20 so download a small area at large scale Jan 02 11:29:36 and large area at small scale Jan 02 11:29:51 by small scale, you mean...like 15 and by large scale like 6? :P Jan 02 11:29:53 or the other way around? :p Jan 02 11:29:59 yes Jan 02 11:30:01 k :p Jan 02 11:30:06 although 15 is overkill Jan 02 11:30:13 imo 13 is the smallest useful Jan 02 11:30:19 atm i'm downloading 6-8-10-12 Jan 02 11:30:28 ok Jan 02 11:30:32 esp. 6 takes a lot Jan 02 11:30:33 of the "big" area :p Jan 02 11:30:45 ye, but without street level precision, there is not much use to a gps :D Jan 02 11:30:50 I only grab the low levels around cities Jan 02 11:30:51 otherwise i might just take a compass along :D Jan 02 11:30:56 8 is enough Jan 02 11:31:16 see it yourself Jan 02 11:31:23 i will once the damn download is done :D Jan 02 11:31:35 device is rather slow while it's busy downloading it seems Jan 02 11:31:38 and i've whole country at 12 :P Jan 02 11:31:47 :> Jan 02 11:31:52 nah, because mapper is fsyncing to hell Jan 02 11:31:59 and making immc busy Jan 02 11:32:07 o Jan 02 11:32:10 which asserts irqs Jan 02 11:32:20 any idea why the wifi is so slow btw? Jan 02 11:32:29 wifi isn't Jan 02 11:32:32 (except a router problem which i doubt a bit) Jan 02 11:32:40 unless cpu can't keep up Jan 02 11:32:41 well anything i do over wifi is slow, not only mapper Jan 02 11:32:44 which is unlikely Jan 02 11:32:45 bakarat: You aren't downloading one big file, but 100000 small files. Jan 02 11:32:49 yes Jan 02 11:32:59 a large number of tiny files Jan 02 11:33:19 check vs some speedtest Jan 02 11:33:25 bakarat, you could try disabling wifi power saving and see if things improve. if they do it's your router's fault Jan 02 11:33:28 guys, thanks for all the feedback, but i'm going to get something to eat :D Jan 02 11:33:38 johnx, will try that :> Jan 02 11:33:38 So you are seeing a lot of small requests which all have a round trip, the app has to save these files to the FS, which takes a lot more time and cpu than one big one. Jan 02 11:33:55 also, note that immc can do only 500 KB/s Jan 02 11:34:01 o Jan 02 11:34:06 also, it's mounted sync, isn't it? Jan 02 11:34:13 you need to write to a real card to dl faster Jan 02 11:34:15 dnno Jan 02 11:34:24 johnx, yes Jan 02 11:34:34 bbl guys :D Jan 02 11:34:39 again thanks for everything! :> Jan 02 11:35:44 sync doesn't slow down in case of normal download Jan 02 11:35:54 if the card can keep up Jan 02 11:38:01 makes things more flexible though to let the kernel pick when to do I/O Jan 02 11:40:27 johnx, yup Jan 02 11:40:41 and esp. as stupid mapper fsyncs to hell Jan 02 11:40:51 (actually, stupid sqlite) Jan 02 11:41:31 I wonder how hard it would be to bring the newer maptile picture storage system to the newest maemo-mapper Jan 02 11:47:09 johnx, moderately easy Jan 02 11:47:33 still, the author opposes it Jan 02 11:47:35 for no real reason Jan 02 11:47:37 johnx: what is wrong with the old one? Jan 02 11:47:47 * RST38h remembers it changing at least once Jan 02 11:47:57 RST38h, the oldest one? with a bunch of tiny files? Jan 02 11:48:08 guess so Jan 02 11:48:31 there've been 3: tiny maptiles as pics, bigger maptiles as pics and an sqlite db Jan 02 11:48:36 an obscure bug in an old version of the Symbian OS could allow an attacker to crash a target's mobile phone with a specially-formatted text message. Jan 02 11:48:45 johnx: current one is the db? Jan 02 11:48:49 yeah Jan 02 11:48:58 and the one I like is the biggish maptiles as pics Jan 02 11:49:12 but it was a random fork by some guy who only made one patch to one version Jan 02 11:49:29 still, the speed improvement seems well worth it Jan 02 11:49:48 Enjoy: http://berlin.ccc.de/~tobias/cos/s60-curse-of-silence-advisory.txt Jan 02 11:50:15 meh. saw it a while ago. is there an update to fix it? Jan 02 11:50:16 johnx: What is the original author's reason for opposing it? Jan 02 11:50:22 There is none Jan 02 11:50:38 I think he likes the db solution Jan 02 11:50:54 keeps your card nice and clean Jan 02 11:51:13 What about storing bigger tiles in db? Jan 02 11:51:53 as in joining the maptiles, then storing them in the db? Jan 02 11:52:29 I dunno specifics Jan 02 11:52:45 but sqlite is stupid fsync abuser Jan 02 11:53:08 any db that tries to do ACID using fsync is stupid Jan 02 11:53:41 it is not an api that guarantees anything Jan 02 11:53:55 in fact, Unix allows fsync to be noop Jan 02 11:53:58 :P Jan 02 11:54:39 and ext filesystems batch fsyncs up to its commit time Jan 02 11:54:51 then maybe the answer is for fsync to be a noop :> Jan 02 11:54:55 while xfs and reiserfs ignore it Jan 02 11:55:22 also, fsync is bad for multiuser systems Jan 02 11:55:28 (if implemented) Jan 02 11:56:53 db people should be beaten with a posix stick :) Jan 02 11:57:07 or a 1-ton unix manual Jan 02 11:58:56 lots of people need to be hit with the unix stick Jan 02 11:59:44 e.g. emacs by default does fsync if backups are enabled Jan 02 11:59:47 evil :> Jan 02 12:05:33 maemo-mapper 2.53 seems VERY slow to render maps on N800 - is it just me? takes 7-10 seconds to do a full screen pan! Jan 02 12:06:47 i deleted the database and tried on mmc versus /home/user - makes no difference Jan 02 12:08:47 hm Jan 02 12:08:56 I don't recall any changes in rendering code Jan 02 12:09:10 other than disabling bilinear smoothing Jan 02 12:09:28 AStorm: what sort of speed do you get? Jan 02 12:09:34 and switching rotation code to simple 15 degree Jan 02 12:09:38 I have n810 Jan 02 12:10:08 I thought n800 and n810 were same spec processor? Jan 02 12:10:43 They are. The N800 was limited to 330MHZ in OS2007 Jan 02 12:10:46 are there any optimisations that can be done at user level? eg. turning off rotation or something? Jan 02 12:11:17 I am running latest OS2008 on the N800 with relatively clean install. Jan 02 12:11:44 apart from installing sequentially from 2.2 upwards --- not sure what else i can do Jan 02 12:11:51 any other tips? Jan 02 12:12:25 i don't think it is just rendering - even downloading maps (5mbytes) is taking about 10 minutes! Jan 02 12:12:44 i thought the map DB might be corrupt - but deleting it should have fixed that Jan 02 12:13:11 i thought loading maps from the SD cards might be slower - but it doesn't seem to make much difference. Jan 02 12:13:42 the only other thing is that i have quite a lot of POI points - maybe 200 -- would that affect things? Jan 02 12:40:12 is there an example how the extras-devel .install file should look like? Jan 02 12:40:42 e.g. qt4 project seems to have this line there: Jan 02 12:40:44 name = maemo Extras-Devell Jan 02 12:40:51 kulve, http://repository.maemo.org/extras-devel/dists/diablo/install/ Jan 02 12:40:58 which I guess adds a separate extras-devell repo.. Jan 02 12:41:35 kulve the moo.install file is only for packing Jan 02 12:41:54 packing? Jan 02 12:42:15 it tells the debian packaging utils which files should be installed where Jan 02 12:42:31 I think we are now discussing about the other .install file Jan 02 12:42:39 i.e. maemo .install, not debian .install Jan 02 12:44:11 the repo one? dl one from gronmayer :) Jan 02 12:44:31 kulve aehm this files seems to be generated automagicly Jan 02 12:44:43 I never defined something Jan 02 12:44:45 in my app Jan 02 12:44:48 and its there Jan 02 12:45:06 kulve, http://repository.maemo.org/extras-devel/dists/diablo/install/ *cough* Jan 02 12:45:23 qwerty12_N800: yes, I copied one from there as an example. Thanks. Jan 02 12:46:11 ah Jan 02 12:46:13 now I see.. Jan 02 12:46:19 so that file in that repo is autogenerated? Jan 02 12:46:23 and I should point to it.. Jan 02 12:46:52 kulve when you upload a package to devel-extras Jan 02 12:46:55 yes Jan 02 12:47:00 you do not need extra .install file Jan 02 12:47:05 yeah, I noticed Jan 02 12:47:28 people who use extras-devel already have the installer line Jan 02 12:47:47 Well, strictly speaking, if you are adding a package to the maemo catalog, it should only install from the extras repo Jan 02 12:48:08 how does the statistics -stuff work? I have an entry in maemo.org/downloads and I have uploaded the packages to extras-devel. But how do I say which packages belong to that entry? Jan 02 12:49:07 I think you only define one package as part of the unix name Jan 02 12:50:23 the project name is "ogg" and the debian package name is "ogg-support".. Jan 02 12:51:33 the unix name on your application listing should be the same as the package name, i think it says that when adding the entry Jan 02 12:52:03 then it wouldn't match the garage.maemo.org page.. Jan 02 12:52:45 "Please use the same name as you use for your debian package." Jan 02 12:52:48 I'll change it.. Jan 02 13:02:23 bye Jan 02 13:16:59 hmm, running android on a netbook, cute Jan 02 13:17:19 meh, netbooks are made obsolete with n810 Jan 02 13:17:20 * GAN800 shudders at upgrade misinformation. Jan 02 13:17:26 and a good desktop-laptop Jan 02 13:17:44 apt-get dist-upgrade is one quick way to reboot loop land Jan 02 13:17:44 what if netbooks all come with touchscreens? Jan 02 13:17:44 GAN800, hm? Jan 02 13:17:53 GAN800, not in diablo Jan 02 13:18:00 Yes, in Diablo. Jan 02 13:18:12 AStorm, please don't tell people it's safe. Jan 02 13:18:16 lcuk, they don't, and n810 is still better Jan 02 13:18:18 Because it's not. Jan 02 13:18:22 GAN800, did it, works Jan 02 13:18:30 you must have some dodgy repo on Jan 02 13:18:33 Not with the SDK repo Jan 02 13:18:33 :P Jan 02 13:18:36 ahha Jan 02 13:18:42 your fail Jan 02 13:18:44 .P Jan 02 13:18:50 * RST38h moos at lcuk woefully Jan 02 13:18:58 Which Fring and others add in their .installs Jan 02 13:19:06 Not my fail Jan 02 13:19:08 bad people Jan 02 13:19:13 still yours Jan 02 13:19:14 :) Jan 02 13:19:20 AStorm, agreed, carrying round and using a bigger device feels wrong - i feel like a midget when i pickup my tabletpc and try to use it like my nokia Jan 02 13:19:21 disable it when not needed Jan 02 13:19:25 lcuk: May I tell you a story? =) Jan 02 13:19:44 * alterego yawns Jan 02 13:19:48 AStorm, I'm so glad it works for you, but I don't want to clean up the mess when some newbie who tried Fring follows your 'advice' Jan 02 13:19:54 lcuk, and a powerful laptop for times when you need power Jan 02 13:20:03 GAN800, I didn't advise it Jan 02 13:20:26 AStorm, you claimed it was safe. Jan 02 13:20:34 It is not. Jan 02 13:20:34 AStorm, i never need power when on the move Jan 02 13:20:37 of course RST38h Jan 02 13:20:54 I'd ask you not to make the same claim in the future Jan 02 13:21:17 and also to not assume things about what I have and have not done. :) Jan 02 13:21:26 lcuk: When I was 16 years old I wanted to write an operating syste, Jan 02 13:21:30 johnx: how's the start up thing going? Jan 02 13:21:49 lcuk: Mighty and powerful, with windowed console output, unified device API etc Jan 02 13:22:34 lcuk: And even wrote about 30% of it before the tape wore out and took all my work away Jan 02 13:23:35 lcuk: About 10 years later, the topic came up in a conversation with a good friend, we talked about it in details, what we would have in a modern os, then pulled out a laptop, and started writing Jan 02 13:23:55 lcuk: In about 3 hours one of us suddenly asked "And why the fuck are we doing it?" Jan 02 13:24:38 lcuk: And we stopped. The idea still comes up every now and then, but one of us always reiterates the question and, mercifully, kills it dead until the next time. Jan 02 13:25:18 Did you base your OS on a pre-existing kernel? Jan 02 13:25:35 alterego: There weren't such a sthing as a pre existing kernel at that time Jan 02 13:25:43 Oh Jan 02 13:25:50 It was 1989-1990, in USSR Jan 02 13:25:59 I didn't realise it was in the dark ages :P Jan 02 13:26:01 So you did this in the 60's? Jan 02 13:26:11 BSD and Mach have been around for a long time. Jan 02 13:26:15 Stskeeps, packaged. wanna see if I can get a first-run-wizard working Jan 02 13:26:38 derf: not on an 8080-based system with 32kB RAM, TV for output and a walkman for input Jan 02 13:26:51 But it is all pretty much beside the point. Jan 02 13:28:59 RST38h, i dont want an OS. i want fast fluid applications on my tablet Jan 02 13:29:24 my only advice is: follow the Unix way and everything else will work itself out Jan 02 13:29:46 agreed entirely Jan 02 13:30:09 I think splitting it into separate parts will help a lot with popularity Jan 02 13:30:29 I also think I'm going to go to the store and buy a box of cookies Jan 02 13:30:32 back in 6min Jan 02 13:30:37 heh Jan 02 13:30:50 quick Jan 02 13:31:29 er...maybe more like 10min actually. doctor said no running for a while :( Jan 02 13:32:23 hehe Jan 02 13:32:29 Unix way is unfortunately ignored a lot nowadays Jan 02 13:32:32 as in many small tools Jan 02 13:33:19 johnx, for when you get back : how can i do as quick and simple as i want when the OS wont let me? Jan 02 13:33:50 lcuk: you only have ONE application. you have to figure out for yourself what this application is. Jan 02 13:34:05 lcuk: And stop there. Jan 02 13:34:16 * RST38h obviously check out iTT :) Jan 02 13:34:19 checked Jan 02 13:36:46 RST38h, i have ideas which span many applications and simply lack the knowledge to push the improvements into the core. Jan 02 13:38:19 and from a purely personal perspective, I've got what I need already : a base to write anything I want from Jan 02 13:40:31 * alterego wonders if he'll ever be finished tweaking the packaging system. Jan 02 13:40:38 lcuk, ah, and here's where the unix philosophy makes you and RST38h happy: make a small tool that does one thing well Jan 02 13:40:45 if you need more than one thing, make another tool Jan 02 13:41:02 Actually that's not lcuk's philosophy :P Jan 02 13:41:09 yeah johnx, ive got hundreds os stand alone projects here, some more developer than others Jan 02 13:41:12 alterego, not yet :) Jan 02 13:41:18 hundreds of ^ Jan 02 13:41:25 lcuk: Choose ONE. Jan 02 13:41:26 i hate having everything in one bundle Jan 02 13:41:26 liqbase is one application :P Jan 02 13:41:29 And finish it. Jan 02 13:41:33 it makes it a nightmare to think about Jan 02 13:41:47 RST38h, i fuffing cant without a library Jan 02 13:42:03 if i had a library i could make a tiny liqsketch and finish it Jan 02 13:42:08 and hence the proliferation of libraries in the Unix world :) Jan 02 13:42:14 until then everything is under the same umbrella and gets improved together Jan 02 13:42:23 and the proliferation of apps that include their own mail client in the windows world Jan 02 13:42:58 same with linux isnt it Jan 02 13:43:42 lcuk: You already have the code, make it a library. Jan 02 13:43:50 What exactly is the problem? Jan 02 13:43:57 if i had been happy with using gtk and cairo and could get kinetic i wouldv, and ive hated every single step ive taken from the day i started on the YUV implementation, but the simple fact is the path is there Jan 02 13:44:08 lcuk, it is apparent in some apps. which ones are you thinking of? open office? Jan 02 13:44:57 how many webbrowsers are we at currently? Jan 02 13:45:04 lcuk, heck, I had to change my nifty fast update to a sligtly slower one Jan 02 13:45:27 btw. is ther are libv4l available for maemo? Jan 02 13:45:39 because stupid gtkImage doesn't do image replacement properly Jan 02 13:45:42 lcuk, for the most part though: they're just web browsers. sure linux has more than one of the same tool, but it's not a tool out to solve all your problems Jan 02 13:45:48 lcuk: Then just live without gtk and cairo Jan 02 13:45:54 johnx, not browsers Jan 02 13:46:02 lcuk: Use what you have. Jan 02 13:46:03 they actually embed IE or OE Jan 02 13:46:05 AStorm, but the book reader wouldnt work Jan 02 13:46:06 AStorm, nature of the beast I've decided Jan 02 13:46:51 * RST38h is exhausted by fighting ALSA. Why is all this grotesque non-working shit there? Jan 02 13:46:51 if mplayer used only the normal methods it wouldnt play movies Jan 02 13:47:02 nah Jan 02 13:47:05 Why can't these people just give me a ring buffer? Jan 02 13:47:08 it could Jan 02 13:47:23 ring? no, it's a linear fb Jan 02 13:47:38 I do not want their underrun handling. I do not want their reporting functions, their write functions, etc. Jan 02 13:47:39 you can't have a ring buffer, only a linear one Jan 02 13:47:51 AStorm: ALSA has nothing to do with fb Jan 02 13:47:56 ah that Jan 02 13:48:02 AStorm: it is a freaking audio API Jan 02 13:48:04 DirectX uses ring buffrs Jan 02 13:48:10 it sucks :P Jan 02 13:48:31 you n*don't* want an unknown size buffer Jan 02 13:48:40 and callback api is fine Jan 02 13:48:45 (a'la jack) Jan 02 13:49:00 lcuk, it's not about using the normal methods or not. I'm not talking about dropping YUV rendering or even using 3rd party libs. All I mean is what you're already planning on: factor out libliqbase and make liqsketch, liqreader, etc separate apps Jan 02 13:49:18 "Comparing to OSS API, ALSA API has inteligent ring buffer management for the mmaped access. Application must start snd_pcm_mmap_begin() to obtain the location where to store / get samples to / from and when work is finished with given sample region, snd_pcm_mmap_commit() must be called to move sample pointers in the ring buffer. " Jan 02 13:49:29 johnx, yes that is the roadmap 100% Jan 02 13:49:51 RST38h, what they don't tell is that most cards can't do mmap access Jan 02 13:49:53 Fucking idiots, why do I even need this "location" if it has no relation to the actual ring buffer? Jan 02 13:49:59 and dmix 100% can't Jan 02 13:50:03 so ignore it Jan 02 13:50:07 AStorm: They are not doing real direct access Jan 02 13:50:32 AStorm: It is not really mmap access, it is some temp buffer they have got inside alsa Jan 02 13:50:54 that's why you have to write some blocks Jan 02 13:50:59 and commit Jan 02 13:51:15 then alse cuts it to blocks and sends to soundcard Jan 02 13:52:06 I do not have a sound card. That is the funniest thing. Jan 02 13:52:12 one bonus is that you don't theoretically have to care about block size Jan 02 13:52:17 A have a normal DMAble ring buffer in sdram Jan 02 13:52:23 whatever Jan 02 13:52:32 still have to commit Jan 02 13:52:35 RST38h, back when i started, the "linux way" made it very complex to build things due to the amount of knowledge required. i have been happily tucked away inside VB for years now insulated from the command line and with a very quick simple way to create a new project. the closest to that i could get with liqbase was to just add another standalone module to liqbase and add it to the menu with liqXXXXX_run(); calls Jan 02 13:52:36 part of api Jan 02 13:52:55 commit every some bytes and you'll be fine Jan 02 13:53:09 AStorm: I am not even using mmap api because it is useless Jan 02 13:53:20 pointless, not useless Jan 02 13:53:21 :) Jan 02 13:53:27 AStorm: The problem is that even normal (non-mmap) API clicks and hangs after a few restarts Jan 02 13:53:27 it can be used Jan 02 13:53:34 hmm? Jan 02 13:53:38 weird Jan 02 13:53:47 And nobody gives me access to the hardware Jan 02 13:53:54 All I have got is a buggy ALSA implementation Jan 02 13:54:03 what is the device you're using? Jan 02 13:54:07 wait, are we talking about alsa on the tablet? Jan 02 13:54:17 tablet has fine alsa support Jan 02 13:54:19 :P Jan 02 13:54:25 gstreamre ftw! Jan 02 13:54:26 working too Jan 02 13:54:27 johnx: No. STMP37xx chip. Jan 02 13:54:33 mhm Jan 02 13:54:35 AStorm, that's a nice dream Jan 02 13:54:37 a DAC Jan 02 13:54:43 johnx, no, really Jan 02 13:54:49 in new linux-omap Jan 02 13:55:02 AStorm, aaah, I meant in 2.6.21 Jan 02 13:55:08 2.6.24-omap had working alsa last I tried Jan 02 13:55:34 AStorm: he's not saying it doesn't work. He's saying he doesn't like it's API Jan 02 13:55:42 "working ALSA" is a vague description Jan 02 13:55:43 meh, api's ok Jan 02 13:55:44 AStorm, I thought you meant Nokia's alsa->DSP was "fine" Jan 02 13:55:51 ALSA API has dozens of functions Jan 02 13:56:04 yes, and the kitchen sink Jan 02 13:56:19 and many advanced features have to be tested for Jan 02 13:56:23 RST38h: if you're that unhappy with ALSA, write something better .. Jan 02 13:56:48 Yes, clearly Linux needs another audio API. Jan 02 13:57:04 at least ALSA is not lowest common denominator api Jan 02 13:57:24 you can use all features of a card with it Jan 02 13:57:28 alterego: I have no choice. Jan 02 13:57:33 ALSA is what I have got Jan 02 13:57:41 unlike OSS 4 Jan 02 13:57:46 derf: Linux needs a massacre or two Jan 02 13:57:57 or certain other high level apis like PortAudio Jan 02 13:57:59 woo! it's a massacre! Jan 02 13:58:36 derf: With people writing "another audio APIs" first in line for execution Jan 02 13:59:12 RST38h, hmm? Jan 02 13:59:28 I must have compiled these packages a hundred times now ^_^ Jan 02 13:59:31 yes, we need one and only API Jan 02 13:59:43 ALSA is fit for the task Jan 02 14:00:07 OSS should die :> Jan 02 14:01:04 AStorm: You already have one and only API - /dev/dsp Jan 02 14:01:12 no Jan 02 14:01:14 it sucks Jan 02 14:01:20 AStorm: If you really dislike it, use BSD's /dev/pcm or even Sun's /dev/audio. Jan 02 14:01:24 provides no latency info for one Jan 02 14:01:36 AStorm: it does Jan 02 14:01:39 no idea of buffering Jan 02 14:01:48 AStorm: orly? =) Jan 02 14:01:51 really Jan 02 14:01:56 it has to die Jan 02 14:02:12 you can't code any non-trivial audio app with these Jan 02 14:02:19 AStorm: I mean, when you tell /dev/dsp the buffer size and the number of segments, it is not buffering? Jan 02 14:02:39 you do, but then you don't know anything about underruns Jan 02 14:04:44 AStorm: add an ioctl. ONE ioctl, not ten Jan 02 14:06:09 ten? since when you need 10 ioctls in alsa? Jan 02 14:06:43 no, you don't have to implement every feature it has Jan 02 14:07:28 anyway Jan 02 14:07:36 * AStorm needs a nap Jan 02 14:12:47 ALSA actually has more than ten Jan 02 14:14:04 how exactly do the POI work in maemo mapper? Jan 02 14:14:17 i entered a few lists containing the speed traps for different speed limits in my country Jan 02 14:14:29 they seem to be loaded, but i can't "see" them? Jan 02 14:14:34 is there a way to show them by icon or something? Jan 02 14:14:40 or do you get an auditive reminder? Jan 02 14:17:24 o wait, that's odd...it seems that the POI are placed wrong, they show up near adis abeba whilst they should be in western europe :p Jan 02 14:18:17 i used garmin csv file of the locations and "gpsbabel" to convert Jan 02 14:18:23 maybe it mixed up long & lat or something? Jan 02 14:24:05 * RST38h seems to have coerced ALSA into the ring buffer mode Jan 02 14:24:50 urgh, what a messy piece of shit :( like the old OSS API having a cancer. Jan 02 14:49:57 RST38h, yes Jan 02 14:51:48 Sun's /dev/audio is nice Jan 02 14:52:05 and it does give you buffering and latency Jan 02 14:52:18 With alsa it's a bit of a hit and miss whether you get usable buffering info :-) Jan 02 14:53:14 alsa supports a wider variety of hardware devices though. I always imagined that was the reason it was more complicated Jan 02 14:53:26 nah Jan 02 14:53:38 such as A2DP headphones Jan 02 14:54:28 Highly localized aurora borealis: http://victorprofessor.livejournal.com/83680.html Jan 02 14:54:39 (in case you wonder, no, not real aurora) Jan 02 14:54:53 johnx: it's not the reason Jan 02 14:55:30 johnx: The reason is that it is designed by people with asperger's syndrome Jan 02 14:55:35 so out of curiosity: how would one sanely have a2dp headphones provide a /dev/audio interface? Jan 02 14:55:51 RST38h, might want to watch comments like that... Jan 02 14:56:09 johnx: normally - you open it, write to it, the driver manages sending what you write to the headphones, with compression Jan 02 14:56:32 johnx: Well, it was just a statement of a fact Jan 02 14:56:52 RST38h, some people might take that the wrong way Jan 02 14:57:19 johnx: Let'em Jan 02 14:57:32 alright: fuck you :) Jan 02 14:57:40 Hehe =) Jan 02 14:57:40 The best way of getting half-working alsa support into your app, is to become big enough that an alsa developer comes along and corrects your code Jan 02 14:57:55 Because you're unlikely to figure it out by staring at the docs Jan 02 14:58:15 johnx: But in this particular case you have obviously got someone REALLY concentrating on the API design to the point where all other things (including common sense) are ignored Jan 02 14:58:34 heh, know the feeling Jan 02 14:58:48 RST38h, trying to justify what you just said, just makes you look more ignorant Jan 02 15:00:43 RST38h, and as for a2dp: you want sound to go into the kernel interface, get passed up into userspace, have the sbc encoding run on it, then back into the kernel for transmission? Jan 02 15:01:19 johnx: I want sound processing stay in the kernel Jan 02 15:01:26 johnx: there's some merit to what he says though.. with aspergers, it is -very- easy to drown in the details (i have it myself so), and the end results can be horrendous if not balanced with other developers/end users :P Jan 02 15:01:56 johnx: And no, I am not "justifying" what I said, I am explaining the basis for my assumption Jan 02 15:02:22 you make it support only sample format A2DP :-) Jan 02 15:02:31 the /dev/audio device for bluetooth steroe headset Jan 02 15:03:10 ShadowJK, and then every app that wants to play sound includes an sbc encoder? Jan 02 15:03:15 Also an idea - this way you write sbc encoded data into the device Jan 02 15:03:43 wow...what a killer idea. I get to wait for everyone to include sbc encoding into their apps before I can use my headphones? Jan 02 15:03:48 johnx: you can run an sbc encoder process that reads data from a socket Jan 02 15:04:50 call it /dev/headset or something Jan 02 15:05:42 and could I expect to ln -s /dev/headset /dev/audio and have things just work? Jan 02 15:05:57 alsa is great in pretending to be transparent, but unfortunately it's not :( Jan 02 15:06:08 not if you want devices for both plain audio and sbc audio Jan 02 15:06:27 ShadowJK: 2/3 of it does not appear to work at all, transparently or not Jan 02 15:06:55 I still have to access the hw directly in alsa and not through 'default' pcm, to get accurate usable timing info Jan 02 15:07:17 pretend I'm a user: I want my headphones to work without rewriting every sound producing app I use to support my headphones Jan 02 15:07:46 johnx: if you are a user, you do not really care whether it happens through ALSA or not. Jan 02 15:07:48 Atleast they fixed the thing where they did fork() in libalsa and you ended up with random processes all over, which then blocked all sound when they eventually fell over Jan 02 15:07:53 So, no, this example won't fly Jan 02 15:08:23 From a user point of view, wrangling alsa to do anything is a pain. And if the distro sets it up for you, then it doesn't matter what sits behind it :-) Jan 02 15:08:26 ShadowJK: Don't scare me like that - random kernel hangups I have got today are really sufficient =) Jan 02 15:09:08 RST38h, you really think people will be rewriting all their audio player code every time a strange and different piece of sound hardware appears Jan 02 15:09:25 that strikes me as the wrong level to do that at Jan 02 15:09:46 johnx: I really think there is a way to connect your a2dp headset using standard, lightweight /dev/dsp API, without resorting to something like ALSA Jan 02 15:09:55 That is all I think Jan 02 15:10:09 As to ALSA, I haven't seen many developers using ALSA APIs directly Jan 02 15:10:11 Well that's effectively what you have to do today anyway, the alsa API is too complex for programmers to write "proper" code for, so whenever something new comes along in ALSA, random apps break and the alsa people say the apps' alsa code is "broken", then you have to wait for someone to fix that Jan 02 15:10:13 gstreamer ftw! Jan 02 15:10:31 RST38h, I'll give you that. even the pulseaudio guys seem to be steering people in that direction Jan 02 15:10:35 Like when fedora introduced pulseaudio, random things breaking here and there Jan 02 15:11:03 s/pulseaudio/alsa/ Jan 02 15:11:03 johnx meant: RST38h, I'll give you that. even the alsa guys seem to be steering people in that direction Jan 02 15:11:55 going through pulseaudio straight is tolerable, going alsa->pulseaudio and the timing and buffer reporting granularity goes up a few magnitudes... Which makes VoIP kinda funny Jan 02 15:12:10 * ShadowJK remembers skype didn't work very well Jan 02 15:12:33 Of course, skype's alsa code was "broken", they said Jan 02 15:13:17 When the next great thing comes along and embeds itself in the middle of the path to the soundboard, I bet there will be yet more "broken" apps.. Jan 02 15:14:21 yep Jan 02 15:14:36 That is why all these alsas, pulseaudios, esounds, etc etc should just die Jan 02 15:14:48 so we can move onto the next great thing? Jan 02 15:14:59 yet another sound API embedded into the kernel? Jan 02 15:15:08 Take /dev/audio (or dev/pcm or core dev/dsp functionality), add a few critical ioctls and leave it be Jan 02 15:15:21 no, just reuse the original Ap Jan 02 15:15:23 api Jan 02 15:15:44 besides, OSS has a ALSA compatibility layer now, imagine that :-) Jan 02 15:15:48 (run ALSA apps on OSS) Jan 02 15:16:06 The OSS guy did it because people said it was impossible Jan 02 15:16:07 lol Jan 02 15:16:13 so from my example: will OSS have A2DP drivers? Jan 02 15:16:13 Heh Jan 02 15:16:21 ShadowJK: he sounds about as insane as me.. Jan 02 15:16:32 If you keep using broken things then they'll never get replaced. Jan 02 15:16:51 there are no unbroken things Jan 02 15:16:56 yep Jan 02 15:17:06 btw, http://cache.gawker.com/assets/images/gizmodo/2009/01/nielsen2.jpg Jan 02 15:17:25 of course ythe most amusing is position #7 ;) Jan 02 15:17:39 skype-installer and gizmo-installer really annoy me. Jan 02 15:18:10 Why do they have to make the core meta package depend on them. I don't want them cluttering up my app menu >:( Jan 02 15:18:12 that's a pretty big "other" category O_o Jan 02 15:18:30 alterego, then install skype and remove it :) Jan 02 15:18:31 johnx, it's not surprising really Jan 02 15:18:46 People have tons of functioning SNES boxen left :-) Jan 02 15:18:47 I just deleted the .desktop files. Jan 02 15:19:07 not surprising, just ... maybe they could have expanded the list to 10 so we could see some of them Jan 02 15:19:20 yeah Jan 02 15:19:29 alterego, I like to dpkg -L them and delete the files manually. Being from the uk, you won't have noticed they annoying rhapsody-installer package too... Jan 02 15:19:44 :) Jan 02 15:19:46 s/they/the Jan 02 15:19:59 heh...had a friend who worked for Real for a while :) Jan 02 15:20:10 johnx: so what was packaged btw? Jan 02 15:21:19 * RST38h remembers installing Real on a Windows PC Jan 02 15:21:29 Stslaptop, that startx init script + a hook to run a first boot wizard if /etc/default/autologin isn't found Jan 02 15:21:48 The thing is almost like a virus or a trojan, judging from the amount of stuff it dumps into C:\Windows and C:\Windows\System32 Jan 02 15:22:18 * johnx looks for a zenity maemo source package ... Jan 02 15:22:42 extras I suppose... Jan 02 15:22:55 there isn't one in extras(-devel) Jan 02 15:23:21 a moment Jan 02 15:23:46 I do not think they have released anything officially yet Jan 02 15:24:16 Ok, courtesy of Bundyo: http://www.bundyo.org/maemo/zenity/ Jan 02 15:24:30 ah, win :D Jan 02 15:24:31 thanks Jan 02 15:25:09 could some one please help me with a little python - "data read and write" problem? Jan 02 15:25:09 http://pastebin.com/d7328a45a Jan 02 15:25:09 I get this output on eclipse (plus pyDev): Jan 02 15:25:09 Traceback (most recent call last): Jan 02 15:25:09 File "/home/thopiekar/Projekte/ganymede/esdk/trunk/esdk-inst/inst-esdk.py", line 698, in Jan 02 15:25:10 init() # lade das Programm Jan 02 15:25:12 File "/home/thopiekar/Projekte/ganymede/esdk/trunk/esdk-inst/inst-esdk.py", line 691, in init Jan 02 15:25:14 loadcfg() Jan 02 15:25:16 File "/home/thopiekar/Projekte/ganymede/esdk/trunk/esdk-inst/inst-esdk.py", line 77, in loadcfg Jan 02 15:25:18 cfile.writelines(cfgdb) Jan 02 15:25:20 IOError: [Errno 9] Bad file descriptor Jan 02 15:25:26 PASTEBIN Jan 02 15:25:48 qwerty12_N800, it looks like pastebin...but I think this is actually IRC Jan 02 15:25:56 johnx: sure it needs to be maemoized? Jan 02 15:26:01 hmm. got problems building fremantle alpha (Runtime Environment only) in scratchbox: http://www.pastebin.cz/13777 - anybody having an idea how to get better debug output? Jan 02 15:26:05 johnx, call it a hint :) Jan 02 15:26:16 Stslaptop, it wants to pull in libgnomecanvas and can't Jan 02 15:26:28 sry.. you are right i had to pastbin the out put too ;) Jan 02 15:26:38 johnx: ah. Jan 02 15:26:51 I assume we'll be using it for other stuff Jan 02 15:27:02 it wont get gnomecanvas why? Jan 02 15:27:14 let me pull on the dependency tree. one sec Jan 02 15:28:06 zenity -> libgnomecanvas2-0 -> libgail18 -> libgtk2.0-0 = 2.14.5-1ubuntu2 Jan 02 15:28:33 lovely Jan 02 15:28:36 there's a gail in maemo Jan 02 15:28:38 no idea why it *need* that exact libgtk Jan 02 15:28:56 does *it* have critical maemo-only stuff? Jan 02 15:29:33 not sure Jan 02 15:29:42 * johnx looks Jan 02 15:30:32 https://stage.maemo.org/viewcvs.cgi/projects/haf/trunk/gail/debian/changelog?revision=15365&root=maemo&view=markup Jan 02 15:30:42 1.5 years of Nokia patches Jan 02 15:30:44 * johnx kries Jan 02 15:30:56 Woo, SDK+ RC2! :) Jan 02 15:31:03 I might try and install that later. Jan 02 15:32:20 johnx: always possible to rebuild libgail towards libgtk Jan 02 15:33:04 also, nokia is on gail 1.18 and ubuntu on 2.14 Jan 02 15:33:40 so I'll rebuild Ubuntu's gail and see if I'm very lucky Jan 02 15:34:33 *nod* Jan 02 15:34:51 we need to do something about libgconf2-6 too Jan 02 15:34:58 it is an interesting thing though: Nokia's gail drops support for gnome canvas, Ubuntu's doesn't. if I pull it into the first-boot-wizard I'll probably get a ton of gnome stuff Jan 02 15:35:25 yeah but you said zenity -> libgnomecanvas -> libgail Jan 02 15:35:39 well, ubuntu's zenity. Jan 02 15:35:52 I imagine Maemo's zenity doesn't need gnomecanvas Jan 02 15:35:58 true Jan 02 15:36:38 ah, though the latest ubuntu libgail doesn't pull in gnomecanvas Jan 02 15:36:54 ok, maybe not too bad. I'll see Jan 02 15:37:18 sometimes you don't blame nokia for wanting a seperate distro.. Jan 02 15:37:35 yeah Jan 02 15:37:35 where they can cut dependancies left and right Jan 02 15:37:47 hello, jhonx Jan 02 15:37:55 b-man: status? Jan 02 15:37:57 hey b-man. any luck with X? Jan 02 15:38:55 though SDHC cards are cheap, and as long as the added deps don't take up too much more RAM I'm inclined to be closer to the desktop at the cost of disk space Jan 02 15:39:06 mm Jan 02 15:39:28 and having said that no one will ever hire me for embedded work ever again :> Jan 02 15:39:44 no luck with x yet. stslaptop; i'm just about done with the 'slimed down' installer, i just need to make a deb. Jan 02 15:39:50 alright Jan 02 15:40:37 would it make sense to upload a quick auto-startx that depends on the existence of /etc/default/autologin ? Jan 02 15:40:38 b-man: any X problems can probably be directly attributed to not using fb_update_mode auto Jan 02 15:40:59 depends on what /etc/default/autologin means? Jan 02 15:41:16 oh, ok thanks! Jan 02 15:41:19 cat /etc/default/autologin: PREFERED_USER = johnx Jan 02 15:41:26 heh Jan 02 15:41:32 johnx: fair enough, if it's a first-run thing Jan 02 15:42:04 I mean, that's the stand-in for "first-run" so other people aren't waiting on a first-run wizard Jan 02 15:42:24 we can keep doing what we're doing but move startx into init instead of rc.local Jan 02 15:42:40 johnx: yeah, sounds good Jan 02 15:42:46 (your suggestion at first) Jan 02 15:43:07 yeah, developed delusions of grandeur after that o_o; Jan 02 15:44:05 mm Jan 02 15:44:12 * Stskeeps is trying to simulate cow collars. yay :P Jan 02 15:44:39 I misread that at first Jan 02 15:45:50 it looks like i'm missing /etc/dfault/autologin. Jan 02 15:46:29 then you need the package I'm about to release :) Jan 02 15:47:11 oh, you could have told me that :) Jan 02 15:47:25 I did :P Jan 02 15:48:41 could someone please tell me how to fix that? Jan 02 15:48:41 the code (http://pastebin.com/d7328a45a) and it's output (http://pastebin.com/d1bcb61a6).. Jan 02 15:48:50 stupid me, this is why i like to have a little coffie before i join irc in the morning. ;p Jan 02 15:49:01 no worries :) Jan 02 15:49:56 should that be created by the installer or should I just assume it will be 'user' for now? Jan 02 15:50:28 well we dont really have an installer Jan 02 15:50:41 s/installer/thing that makes the images Jan 02 15:50:45 it's an imager, it debootstraps and unpacks files, and adds in very few things (xorg, fstab) Jan 02 15:50:49 +conf Jan 02 15:51:21 sigh...if it doesn't exist I'll just set PREFERED_USER=user Jan 02 15:51:26 * alterego catches up on the Christmas lectures. Jan 02 15:51:27 i think you should run the first-run thing if /etc/default/autologin doesn't exist, after wizard is done, it writes to /etc/default/autologin Jan 02 15:51:30 or something Jan 02 15:52:03 right, which will happen when I wrangle zenity and write first-run-wizard...but for right now Jan 02 15:52:09 a Jan 02 15:52:10 h Jan 02 15:52:26 user, i guess :P if its useradd'd Jan 02 15:52:51 heh. I'll just add it to the top of the script for now. god forgive me Jan 02 15:55:27 wb qwerty12 Jan 02 15:55:39 thanks Stslaptop Jan 02 16:01:18 Stslaptop; how can i make fb_update_mode_auto run automaticly at startup?, from something other than an init script? Jan 02 16:01:35 rc.local Jan 02 16:02:00 k Jan 02 16:02:27 b-man: fb_update_mode auto, not _auto :P Jan 02 16:02:58 http://cache.gawker.com/assets/images/2009/01/custom_1230906681244_asus-android-screen.png Jan 02 16:03:11 kinda pointless but still... Jan 02 16:04:27 dalvik under something else or? Jan 02 16:04:31 * johnx predicts a wave of Chinese PMP/PDA's running Android Jan 02 16:05:05 johnx: already happening as we speak Jan 02 16:05:08 Stslaptop, just android on x86 Jan 02 16:05:24 in fact, if it dethrones WinMobile, I will be happy Jan 02 16:05:43 RST38h: i'm with you on that one Jan 02 16:05:52 won't be able to write emulators for it though :) Jan 02 16:06:38 who cares Jan 02 16:06:48 as long as WinMobile dies... Jan 02 16:06:57 :D since you know, you *sell* emulators... Jan 02 16:07:23 It is one segment I am willing to sacrifice, especially considering that I still can't make myself port latest versions to WinMobile Jan 02 16:08:23 well, then. good riddance indeed Jan 02 16:08:56 and google will get a ton of young Chinese programmers working on android as their first platform Jan 02 16:10:16 so any bets on when android starts showing up on cheap/free w/ contract phones in the US/EU? :) Jan 02 16:10:34 Once Motorola releases its first handsets Jan 02 16:10:45 Unless Motorola does not live to that date financially Jan 02 16:10:58 was about to post "ahaha. as long as they're around do that" Jan 02 16:11:17 When will a real phone company do that rather Jan 02 16:11:19 ? Jan 02 16:11:26 Well, it is not like they have got other chances beside Android Jan 02 16:11:40 qwerty: #define real phone company Jan 02 16:12:06 RST38h, Nokia, Sony Ericsson etc. I'm not a fan of Motorola phones. Jan 02 16:12:16 qwerty12: there was an android comment from SE Jan 02 16:12:31 The G1 is ugly .. Jan 02 16:12:34 Stslaptop, cool :) Jan 02 16:12:35 Nokia, never. SE, maybe Jan 02 16:12:36 * qwerty12 googles :) Jan 02 16:13:07 SE should just let UIQ burn though Jan 02 16:13:24 i wouldn't mind my SE phone if it didn't continually die when in my pocket Jan 02 16:14:19 qwerty: Well, Motorola is pretty real phone company (or has been) Jan 02 16:14:26 I'd like to know when Nokia are opening up Symbian, I've been waiting ages :) Jan 02 16:14:40 HTC produces phones but it is hardly a real phone company Jan 02 16:14:43 but i knew that i had spent too much time with my tablet when i tried to use touch functionality on my SE phone.. Jan 02 16:14:47 alterego: They have opened it already Jan 02 16:14:53 Really? Jan 02 16:14:56 qwerty12: uiq is just burned already Jan 02 16:14:56 When? Jan 02 16:15:06 alterego: Annual membership fee to get open Symbian is $1500. Jan 02 16:15:08 RST38h, yeah, my words are more opinionated (I think motorola suck dick and their phones too) Jan 02 16:15:10 :) Jan 02 16:15:12 O_O Jan 02 16:15:17 qwerty12: afaik they're keeping a small symbian lab though(se) Jan 02 16:15:18 glass, whee! Jan 02 16:15:19 Damnit, I thought it was free. Jan 02 16:15:24 That is Symbian's idea of "open" Jan 02 16:15:32 * johnx imagines SE sucking their phones Jan 02 16:15:34 Nokias .. Jan 02 16:15:37 well symbians idea of open is that manufacturers can take it Jan 02 16:15:39 glass: What for? I thought they dumped and forgot? Jan 02 16:15:51 RST38h: for future phones for the unified symbian platform Jan 02 16:16:10 johnx: Japanese or Nordic part of SE? =) Jan 02 16:16:10 not really trade secrets if you read trade mags/sites/rumours Jan 02 16:16:30 glass: But they do not have any plans for these? Jan 02 16:16:38 since getting an n810 all my lcd screens have seen an increase in finger prints and poke marks Jan 02 16:16:43 RST38h: real plans? dunno if they know themselfs even Jan 02 16:16:50 RST38h, maybe at a high-profile international meeting? Jan 02 16:17:11 orifice_work1, yeah, I poked my desktop monitor the other day Jan 02 16:17:14 samsungs s60's have been getting more available globally no though Jan 02 16:17:14 johnx: Actually, sucking an SE phone from both ends ...mmm... Jan 02 16:17:20 no=now Jan 02 16:17:37 what would a convenient key be to map to TAB on the n810 keyboard ? I'm thinking right shift. I never remember that it's actually there anyways. Jan 02 16:17:42 glass: Samsung will run anything on their phones, if they see profit Jan 02 16:17:51 RST38h: thats samsungs problem actually Jan 02 16:17:57 RST38h: and motors.. spoon in every soup Jan 02 16:17:57 glass: They are very cynical like all asian guys Jan 02 16:18:08 a low-end, durable as hell samsung android phone would be kind of nice Jan 02 16:18:12 not motrs, motos Jan 02 16:18:15 glass: SE - I do not think so Jan 02 16:18:25 RST38h: se's been in trouble for years Jan 02 16:18:29 johnx: ah just wait and you will get your wish Jan 02 16:18:35 RST38h: they lagged so much with uiq3 Jan 02 16:18:39 glass: Well, that is of their own making Jan 02 16:18:42 orifice-work, http://www.thisismobility.com/blog/2007/12/31/adding-pipe-and-tab-to-the-n810-keyboard/ Jan 02 16:18:54 RST38h: and xperia seems just a branded oem wm phone Jan 02 16:18:58 glass: They did not fix bugs, did not market, and generally did not care Jan 02 16:18:59 RST38h: yeah, it's their fault Jan 02 16:18:59 really, people can say that samsung phones aren't cool, but they *work* as *phones* Jan 02 16:19:01 lcuk: cool thanks Jan 02 16:19:10 read the comments as well Jan 02 16:19:10 RST38h: i'm not defending them :) just stating the facts Jan 02 16:19:11 johnx: correct Jan 02 16:19:21 samsung's hardware design has come a long way in the last 3 years Jan 02 16:19:37 glass: Well, it is kinda known fact. And it is way more obvious if you look at Sony's media players Jan 02 16:19:47 glass: I won't even mention the PS3 :) Jan 02 16:20:00 RST38h: se has seemed pretty seperated from just s Jan 02 16:20:02 been using samsung phones from 2001ish to 2006ish. left very little to be desired hardware-wise for a dumbphone Jan 02 16:20:15 glass: But the problem exists across all Sony subdivisions Jan 02 16:20:49 samsung seems to have many teams doing sw for their phones Jan 02 16:20:54 sony needs to talk to itself Jan 02 16:20:56 adds up costs Jan 02 16:21:08 glass: Same with Motorola, until recently Jan 02 16:21:15 RST38h: yeah Jan 02 16:21:23 glass: I thought that too. It seems every new device has a new sw UI team Jan 02 16:21:27 RST38h: when looking at profit numbers, it seems like a shitty tactic Jan 02 16:21:31 johnx: just fire all the old fat guys in suits Jan 02 16:21:39 johnx: starting with legal department. Jan 02 16:21:51 orifice-work: and they used to just bolt on a java vm that they didn't customize at all, had different t9 and all weird shit(samsung) Jan 02 16:21:59 glass: I am sure if it were shitty tactic, Samsung would not do it Jan 02 16:22:14 RST38h, I think it's partially endemic to their massive size, current structure and also to a certain extent on Japanese business culture Jan 02 16:22:20 RST38h: i've been hearing that reasoning for a lot of shitty things lately :D Jan 02 16:22:26 glass: The real reason may be that hiring a lot of Chinese/Koreans is cheap and gives you government subsidies Jan 02 16:22:39 RST38h: but it's bad profit on bottom line Jan 02 16:22:47 RST38h: on q revenues and profit % Jan 02 16:23:08 glass: is there a document to showcase that? Jan 02 16:23:10 RST38h: nokia has(at least untill recenty) the best profit % per phone Jan 02 16:23:22 because their per phone prices are inflated. Jan 02 16:23:24 RST38h: just read the next quarterly briefs etc Jan 02 16:23:34 johnx: true Jan 02 16:23:42 so what, they make profit, making profi means they survive Jan 02 16:24:24 * RST38h goes to check out the next movie on tv Jan 02 16:25:05 Mr Bean's vacation. Mhm. Jan 02 16:25:16 disaster movie Jan 02 16:25:32 oh boy. bollywood is going to remake 'back to the future' Jan 02 16:25:35 this'll be interesting. Jan 02 16:25:48 Stslaptop: haha whaaaat Jan 02 16:25:54 Sts: Funny, I have just glimpsed Bollywood remake of Superman on TV Jan 02 16:26:10 Sts: And yes, it was as bad as it sounds Jan 02 16:26:19 glass: http://www.worstpreviews.com/headline.php?id=11462&count=0 Jan 02 16:26:26 bollywood BTTF? O_o Can't decide whether to be excited or filled with dread Jan 02 16:26:47 johnx: what bttf really needs is a lot of singing and dancing, obviously. Jan 02 16:27:04 that's what I've always said! Jan 02 16:27:36 Speaking of Bollywood: http://funbest.ru/funfoto/1241-indijjskie-kinoafishi-ukhkhkh-zhgut-34.html Jan 02 16:27:45 (try not to eat while opening this link) Jan 02 16:27:49 right when McFly is peeping in that window, that's when we need an epic musical number! or maybe during the skateboard chase seen Jan 02 16:28:10 hehe Jan 02 16:28:18 RST38h: hindi 3-d is hillarious Jan 02 16:28:49 johnx, back to the future was already a musical Jan 02 16:28:54 "power of love" :D Jan 02 16:28:54 Sts: I like Jaani Dushman better, the one with the blue-skinned guy Jan 02 16:28:57 benny lava! Jan 02 16:29:11 donnie darko done by bollywood could be interesting Jan 02 16:29:25 couldn't possibly get less bizarre ;) Jan 02 16:29:32 Sts: Why not go for StarWars? Jan 02 16:29:50 ok, now that would actually be kind of neat Jan 02 16:31:54 * Stslaptop is personally waiting for 'the time travellers wife' to come out. brilliant book. Jan 02 16:32:12 RST38h, george lucas stops it Jan 02 16:32:58 yeah, he's the only one who's allowed to mame star wars Jan 02 16:33:16 except for those chinese subtitle translators.. Jan 02 16:33:21 lcuk: The idea is to make Lucas kill himself when he sees the trailer Jan 02 16:33:31 lcuk: Or have a fit. Jan 02 16:33:58 RST38h, if he didn't kill himself after seeing his own new version of a new hope I don't think bollywood-ization will be enough Jan 02 16:34:05 kinda like how a little bit of my childhood died when i saw this http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=fb50GMmY5nk Jan 02 16:34:07 johnx: off topic, so what will you have the first run wizard ask? username? real name? Jan 02 16:34:20 (though its kinda cool) Jan 02 16:34:21 Stskeeps, yeah, maybe tablet name? Jan 02 16:34:27 true, that too Jan 02 16:34:28 ideas welcome :) Jan 02 16:35:05 what desktop env you are using? ;) Jan 02 16:35:18 b-man, on my desktop? or on my tablet? Jan 02 16:35:27 b-man: think that'll be hildon at first with option to change environments if you're not in-flash Jan 02 16:35:34 (as in, cloned mode) Jan 02 16:35:39 or installed to SD Jan 02 16:35:43 are we having real users? Jan 02 16:35:56 lcuk, had those once. they make a pill now. Jan 02 16:35:59 if anything, we have Meiz ;) Jan 02 16:35:59 johnx; that was a suggestion not a question. ;) Jan 02 16:36:35 b-man, ah, we'll probably leave alternative desktops up to users to setup...though I will keep it in mind for later Jan 02 16:37:29 johnx: option when we have an in-flash version.. asking if you'd like to clone to SD or something Jan 02 16:37:42 in first-boot-wizard? Jan 02 16:37:53 or as a nice little separate app? Jan 02 16:37:56 true, it might be a bit early Jan 02 16:38:00 yeah, seperate app makes more sense Jan 02 16:38:04 Stskeeps, with any of these questions, think about your gran opening the box Jan 02 16:38:15 yeah yeah :P Jan 02 16:38:18 (or other relative as reqd) Jan 02 16:38:57 lcuk: will probably be something along the lines (in a later version) that real name gets turned into username .. and tablet device name Jan 02 16:39:03 i simply ask for a name, it will help personalize things for them Jan 02 16:39:12 ah: location! Jan 02 16:39:16 yeah, that too Jan 02 16:39:25 * johnx takes notes Jan 02 16:40:41 should be easy to turn real name into user name. toLower($firstname) Jan 02 16:40:45 join #/kde Jan 02 16:41:04 johnx, do not underestimate your users Jan 02 16:41:16 they do strange crap like put fullstops and quotes and crap Jan 02 16:41:44 ah, little bobby;DROP TABLES Jan 02 16:41:47 and different generations put things differently Jan 02 16:42:26 heh...if (badname) ; then username = user; fi Jan 02 16:43:11 just have two fields, short name and fullname, as they type their shortname it should fill up proper name (unless its been filled in already) Jan 02 16:43:27 Sts: First time wizard should obviously ask "Are you an idiot?" Jan 02 16:43:33 johnx, badname = motherfucker? :) Jan 02 16:43:35 lcuk, if I can't do it with zenity I'm not doing it :P Jan 02 16:43:41 with a default option of Yes and no way to change it? Jan 02 16:43:43 Sts: And choose the appropriate path depending on the answer Jan 02 16:43:50 qwerty12, badname = bobby;rm -rf / Jan 02 16:44:06 hehe Jan 02 16:44:27 johnx, i put a single name box into liqbase expecting a quick nickname, i learnt a lot from that experience ;) Jan 02 16:45:07 * qwerty12 can't believe how shit slow the builder is at building sstrip >.< Jan 02 16:45:38 lcuk, this can be ripped out later. if people complain. but I don't want to engage in painting the planks I'm going to use to build the barn at this point :P Jan 02 16:46:02 name: "../dev/null" Jan 02 16:46:30 heh, sounds exactly like me :P Jan 02 16:47:26 actually the killer would be, Name: Tablet User,,,":/root:/bin/su Jan 02 16:54:30 committed! Jan 02 16:56:03 johnx, they finally arrived to take you away? Jan 02 16:56:15 they should. wonder what's taking so long Jan 02 17:00:51 i think i've partly solved the xorg problem, i didn't include "X &" and "export DISPLAY=:0" in rc.local. Jan 02 17:00:56 abundance of other patients, no doubt =) Jan 02 17:02:04 b-man, if you're still using gdm it starts X for you Jan 02 17:03:04 ok Jan 02 17:03:25 b-man, you removed gdm-conf? Jan 02 17:03:59 no, i haven't yet... Jan 02 17:04:09 well. that's your problem Jan 02 17:04:15 I can say without much doubt Jan 02 17:05:01 or at very least one the problems Jan 02 17:05:10 but i need a way for my touch screen to work in gnome, that's partly why. Jan 02 17:05:40 you need xserver-xorg-input-tslib Jan 02 17:07:47 ...Volvo's upcoming crash-proof car. The company will introduce a concept car based on the S60 this month... Jan 02 17:07:59 See? S60 is so crash-proof that even Volvo uses it Jan 02 17:08:08 ok, then i'll just remove that useless xserver parameter line in gdm then. - i still would like to use gdm :p Jan 02 17:09:25 b-man, so use it. :) Jan 02 17:11:27 Finally, I think I'm ready for RC2 :) Jan 02 17:11:45 but is RC2 ready for you? Jan 02 17:11:52 No, probably not :P Jan 02 17:12:07 that's the spirit! Jan 02 17:12:12 I still need to complete my hildon-desktop plugin system. It works but it's buggy as f*ck. Jan 02 17:12:47 *b-man hopes to god that ubuntu boots up properly, doesn't think ubuntu can take eny more battery poping :p* Jan 02 17:13:14 b-man, you need a usb/bt keyboard or a linux box :P Jan 02 17:13:31 I cannot for the life of me get a FLAC file to play on my n800 :( Jan 02 17:18:10 did you follow a guide? are you getting an error message? what music player are you using? Jan 02 17:20:39 b-man, you do know that to do irc actions you type "/me jumps up and down" instead of "*luck jumps up and down" Jan 02 17:21:01 *Mousey jumps up and dnow Jan 02 17:21:10 *lcuk makes more typos Jan 02 17:21:24 *Mousey fails at internets Jan 02 17:21:25 * johnx fails at spelling Jan 02 17:21:31 3rd grade all over again Jan 02 17:21:39 blame your keyboard Jan 02 17:21:46 if i had had internets in 3rd grade, i'd have a real job by now Jan 02 17:21:49 It's a good keyboard actually Jan 02 17:21:51 johnx: I've read that mplayer can just straight up play a FLAC file Jan 02 17:22:17 limepi, that sounds right I think Jan 02 17:22:23 limepi: if you have the right libs, mplayer will play anything Jan 02 17:22:26 limepi, it possibly can then, are you sure its a valid FLAC file though Jan 02 17:22:41 yes, it plays on my desktop just fine Jan 02 17:23:27 with mplayer? Jan 02 17:23:44 I haven't tried that Jan 02 17:23:52 it works with mp3 playing software Jan 02 17:24:53 then try renaminig it to mp3 on the tablet and seeing if it works ;) Jan 02 17:25:29 grr, won't play with VLC Jan 02 17:26:11 yes, it does play with mplayer on my mac, here Jan 02 17:26:44 try running it from mplayer on tablet with command line then and see if you can determine why its failing Jan 02 17:27:03 I might as well just transcode the damn thing Jan 02 17:27:07 heh Jan 02 17:27:19 damned if I can tell the difference, anyway Jan 02 17:35:25 Stskeeps, hey, I think this will actually work Jan 02 17:37:12 need to learn how to use update-alternatives tomorrow so I can hook hildon-desktop-env up to x-session-manager Jan 02 17:37:36 Right time for the testing face .. Jan 02 17:37:40 ~phase .. O_O Jan 02 17:37:57 ah, go rest your face :D Jan 02 17:38:02 'night alterego Jan 02 17:38:14 g'night :) Jan 02 17:38:26 ah, I misread testing as resting Jan 02 17:38:38 means we could probably both use sleep, huh? Jan 02 17:40:53 HUGE_SUCSESS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ubuntu boots perfectly now and all the applications work allmost perfectly, even ubuntu-desktop is pritty responsive!!! WOHOOOOO!!!!! Jan 02 17:41:10 good deal b-man Jan 02 17:42:02 Heh Jan 02 17:42:06 allthough i'll have to install xkbd, since matchbox-keyboard causes the desktop to restart. Jan 02 17:42:08 I'm gonna be reinstalling tomorrow .. Jan 02 17:42:25 Now I've virtualized everything I want a basic desktop install to run all my VM's :) Jan 02 17:42:54 think b-man's talking about ubuntu on the tablet though :) Jan 02 17:43:07 oh yah!!! :D Jan 02 17:43:16 Insane Jan 02 17:43:19 wihooo!!! Jan 02 17:43:20 proofpic?;] Jan 02 17:43:32 it works great too!! Jan 02 17:44:28 allthough i'm using 356 mb of swap ;) Jan 02 17:44:37 aaah, well that would help Jan 02 17:44:46 Heh Jan 02 17:44:53 flash images? :) Jan 02 17:44:57 i even have right-click! Jan 02 17:45:40 alterego; i'll probibly make a guide when i have the time. Jan 02 17:47:30 :( Jan 02 17:47:37 Can we see a screeny then :) Jan 02 17:48:05 Stslaptop, pushed auto-startx to my lp bzr. if you want to submit it to the builder, go ahead but it's not much use without a tweak to hildon-desktop-env which will be tomorrow Jan 02 17:48:11 'night for real now Jan 02 17:48:26 shure, i'll post a ton of screenshots over at ITT Jan 02 17:49:19 btw, don't worry, i'll make a guide for ubuntu sometime today or tomorrow. Jan 02 17:49:31 :) Jan 02 17:49:34 Awesome. Jan 02 17:49:43 How does it cope with the resolution? Jan 02 17:50:10 really good :) Jan 02 17:50:29 easy to read, easy to use. :D Jan 02 17:51:19 Cool Jan 02 17:53:49 johnx: k, i Jan 02 17:53:51 'll wait Jan 02 17:54:22 it does nicely launch a failsafe x-terminal. only helps the n810 users though Jan 02 17:55:23 *nod* Jan 02 17:55:32 johnx, :P your turn not to sleep Jan 02 17:55:39 hard to believe it only took me 3 days to start from an idia and progresivly evolve into a true full, bootable ubuntu install :D Jan 02 17:55:41 cya in a bit ;) Jan 02 17:55:58 b-man: do me a favour and note that battery life will (cos it's a desktop distribution) be limited when you do announce Jan 02 17:56:37 i'll take note of that, thanks Jan 02 17:56:52 there's not much to do besides dsme-tools & wifi power saving (feel free to use the deblet scripts), so Jan 02 17:57:16 k :) Jan 02 17:58:01 and remember to use deblet bootmenu as dependancy or i'll have to slap you :P Jan 02 17:58:08 These Christmas lectures are actually pretty good :) Jan 02 17:58:18 hehe Jan 02 17:58:20 Though Bill Gates appearing in the last one was a bit of a downer. Jan 02 17:59:17 do you think that those dsme/powersave scrips might require modifications? Jan 02 17:59:24 nah, not really Jan 02 17:59:56 do you think it's safe just to dpkg -i them? Jan 02 18:00:10 yeah, should work fine Jan 02 18:01:26 ok *b-man goes off and starts downloading packages from deblet repo :)* Jan 02 18:09:51 Well, libhildon1-ruby1.8 has been properly tested now :) Jan 02 18:09:59 * alterego moves onto libosso-ruby1.8 Jan 02 18:11:13 Can anybody add comment to https://maemo.org/downloads/product/create/OS2008/application/ that it is recommended to use only extras in .install files and that extras-devel is absolutely not recommended? Jan 02 18:12:01 Sure, extras-devel is used for when you're testing your application package. Jan 02 18:12:31 Once your application and the packaging is working and building correctly with the auto-builder, you promote it to extras. Users shouldn't install software from extras-devel because it's presumably extremely unstable. Jan 02 18:13:14 And more than likely it'll break something .. Jan 02 18:13:49 and using extras-devel in .install files enables extras-devel unwillingly for unknowing users Jan 02 18:15:03 Yes Jan 02 18:17:13 * Stslaptop still believes there should be extras-devel (or testing); and then encouraging garage PPAs for developers to release often Jan 02 18:17:31 Well, I think I'm pretty happy with the new set of ruby-maemo packages. Jan 02 18:21:30 Dependencies seem to check out. Jan 02 18:21:49 Seems to work in my own auto-builder setup, so I guess it'll be good in extras :) Jan 02 18:21:53 evening GAN800 Jan 02 18:22:10 Howdy, Stslaptop. :) Jan 02 18:23:31 * alterego contemplates dinner. Jan 02 18:25:05 * GAN800 is eating Checkers Jan 02 18:25:50 andre___, woooo, bugspam! ;) Jan 02 18:26:31 you wanted it, you get it! :) Jan 02 18:26:48 now doing the same for gnome bugzilla.... Jan 02 18:28:37 Now, who wants to calculate what percentage of tz's 34 reports atually serve to do anything other than triple the bugsquad's workload? :p Jan 02 18:28:58 heh. some are quite useful, don't say that. :) Jan 02 18:29:26 gnome bugzilla has cute scripts to gather much more info. hope they get upstreamed later this year Jan 02 18:29:38 http://bugzilla.gnome.org/utils/stats-2008/stat-overview.html Jan 02 18:32:57 heh, dup count 1639 Jan 02 18:33:13 andre___, that "Ryan Abel" guy is a bit of a bug spotting super foe, i hope all the bugs he notices are real ;) perhaps he should be banned :P Jan 02 18:33:13 GAN800, is it too early for me to use the new extras categories? I've just used 'user/development' and it doesn't appear to get localised. Jan 02 18:33:15 I guess that's what you get when bugzilla is a crash reporter database :P Jan 02 18:34:05 lcuk, I know! Fuck that guy! Really. :P Jan 02 18:34:07 lcuk, yeah, suspicious guy Jan 02 18:34:21 alterego, they wont be localized Jan 02 18:34:25 * sp3000 goes load gnome # 522534, just because Jan 02 18:35:13 522534 is ugly. can't even block it because the trace is too short Jan 02 18:35:16 GAN800, because they're not being used right now? Jan 02 18:35:18 alterego, so you can push them now and suffer for a while unlocalized, or you can wait. Jan 02 18:35:29 I'll push them now : Jan 02 18:35:30 Application Manager still need Jan 02 18:35:32 :) Jan 02 18:35:51 s to be updated (stupid fkb) Jan 02 18:37:38 andre___, we need to source some shirts. Jan 02 18:38:17 "I filed 100 Maemo bugs in 2008 and all I got was this lousy t-shirt"? Jan 02 18:38:27 Hehe Jan 02 18:38:30 Hah Jan 02 18:38:45 or more like this?: http://blogs.gnome.org/aklapper/files/2008/01/behdadstshirt.jpg Jan 02 18:38:48 Stslaptop; ware is osso-dsp-modules-rx-34? i can't find it enyware in the repo :( Jan 02 18:39:09 I guess timeless was shooting for monthly, but we'd probably be better off di Jan 02 18:39:16 doing it quarterly Jan 02 18:39:22 Someone here might be able to help. I have a couple of packages that should be part of the 'all' architecture. When I build for armel and i386 it recreates them and screws the md5 sum for the previous build. Jan 02 18:39:24 b-man: you cannot distribute that along with your ubuntu image so :P Jan 02 18:39:30 How do I fix the .changes file? Jan 02 18:39:45 automatically that is, I don't want to have to do it by hand. Jan 02 18:39:52 b-man: it's a closed source nokia package, so Jan 02 18:40:09 andre___, ha! Jan 02 18:40:14 how can i get permissions to use it? Jan 02 18:40:27 Same, except for bug #5000. ;) Jan 02 18:40:37 b-man: that's where you wait for mer & maemo.org to work :P Jan 02 18:40:52 heh Jan 02 18:40:54 we used a "trick" in deblet, but i wouldnt recommend it for real use Jan 02 18:41:01 (the non-free local repository) Jan 02 18:41:07 GAN800, i only remember that behdad was up for 9 hours to file #500000 and he was beaten by two other people (crevette and me) :-P Jan 02 18:41:24 Heh Jan 02 18:41:35 lcuk, I used FBReader again for the first time since October and it feels way slower now for some reason. <_< Jan 02 18:41:38 what kind of "trick"? :) Jan 02 18:41:52 b-man: you'll have to look at deblet installer source and the -nonfree packages Jan 02 18:42:05 lol Jan 02 18:42:09 well i stepped originally from my decrepid old 200mhz loox pda to my nokia at double speed and felt the same way ;) Jan 02 18:42:18 in any case, if you include that functionality, you cannot distribute the tar.gz with your ubuntu installation, b-man :P Jan 02 18:43:04 lcuk, make liqreader standalone and feature-complete already. :p Jan 02 18:43:31 ok, so i won't include sound or dsp in my image :p Jan 02 18:43:38 i hear that about lots of things, ill say it again, i need to make liqbase a library (which i am already in the middle of doing) Jan 02 18:43:51 Heh Jan 02 18:44:03 but its not going to happen instantly Jan 02 18:44:15 i have a job and family and relaxation first :) Jan 02 18:44:34 *b-man starts muttering and dpkg --removes some packages* Jan 02 18:44:47 I DEMAND IMMEDIATE SATISFACTION OR A FULL REFUND! :P Jan 02 18:44:55 lol Jan 02 18:45:26 gan, speak to nokia about the refund, but if you wanna pay me ill find my chap-stick and kneepads Jan 02 18:49:36 Hmm, ruby start up time is pretty poor :) Jan 02 18:49:42 * alterego contemplates ruby-launcher Jan 02 18:49:50 gan: what again? the logical conclusion to winmobile on nit thread? Jan 02 18:50:09 "i thought my NIT ran windows mobile or symbian, and i want my money back?" Jan 02 18:50:18 Heh Jan 02 18:51:07 RST38bis, I was thinking it was liqos and now I want a refund from lcuk. Jan 02 18:52:33 alterego, i know you said that varargs wont come from c, but is it relatively easy to add bindings to ruby from my c code? Jan 02 18:52:47 shurrup gan :P Jan 02 18:52:47 Extremely. Jan 02 18:53:10 is there a pointer somewhere.. Jan 02 18:53:10 Making ruby bindings is very easy :) Jan 02 18:53:11 gan: require it in blood! Jan 02 18:53:23 I mean, actually, it's really hard. Ruby-Maemo is extremely complex. Jan 02 18:53:32 :) Jan 02 18:53:54 ok then, ill go down the python route :P Jan 02 18:54:00 :) Jan 02 18:54:05 lcuk: http://www.rubycentral.com/pickaxe/ext_ruby.html Jan 02 18:56:09 Nokia-N810-23-14:~# apt-cache search ruby Jan 02 18:56:09 Nokia-N810-23-14:~# Jan 02 18:56:10 :( Jan 02 18:56:44 deb http://stage.rubyx.co.uk/maemo/ diablo user Jan 02 18:56:47 ;) Jan 02 18:58:10 :D Jan 02 18:58:46 RST38bis, ass-pennies! Jan 02 19:03:30 it looks like i finally found a major bug with my Ubuntu install; the desktop restarts when i try to type in eny text with xkbd and matchbox-keyboard. :( Stslaptop; eny suggestions? Jan 02 19:04:34 this problem doesn't seem to exzist in mer. Jan 02 19:05:12 b-man, i can imagine his response would be along the lines of "install mer" :D Jan 02 19:05:16 * RST38bis off to watch Sherlock Holmes Jan 02 19:06:41 nah, i just need a way to keep xorg from messing up when i try to use a vertual keyboard. Jan 02 19:06:49 :) Jan 02 19:07:54 Time for another ruby-maemo snippet me thinks :) Jan 02 19:07:57 yeah, is it any vkb? Jan 02 19:08:06 yes Jan 02 19:08:18 oooer Jan 02 19:08:39 except hildon-input-method - i haven't tested it yet. Jan 02 19:08:52 Ah, wait Jan 02 19:09:05 GAN: BTW, can I ask you a [horror] MacOS question? Jan 02 19:10:27 no matter what people say, i'm not going to stop working on improving ubuntu for the nit :D Jan 02 19:10:46 b-man :) and good for you Jan 02 19:10:56 i have too much enthusiasm to stop :) Jan 02 19:10:58 (and others who follow your trailblazing) Jan 02 19:12:34 b-man: hehe.. better finish your installer first ;) Jan 02 19:12:58 yah ;) Jan 02 19:13:00 *b-man gos and gets lunch* bye :) Jan 02 19:13:03 why are people in such a rush to finish everything all of a sudden :P Jan 02 19:15:36 * alterego posts another ruby-maemo snippet on his blog. Jan 02 19:15:38 :) Jan 02 19:19:56 I kind of want to do something with gstreamer .. Jan 02 19:28:23 Like....KILL IT? =) Jan 02 19:30:42 No, I want to do something _with_ it. Jan 02 19:30:46 Like make a beautiful baby. Jan 02 19:33:59 alterego: I suggest trying females first. Jan 02 19:34:37 gstreamer isn't very useful in this aspect, or many others for this matter... Jan 02 19:37:00 * alterego yawns Jan 02 19:37:25 Humping GStreamer too for you? :p Jan 02 19:37:34 *much Jan 02 20:03:35 like a hungry, angry baby Jan 02 20:05:48 * RST38h added standardized touch screen support to EMULib Jan 02 20:06:15 RST38h, using xsp on maemo? Jan 02 20:07:05 lcuk: not really, I have got a gtk widget for that Jan 02 20:07:27 where are you getting touch reports from then? Jan 02 20:07:52 gtk_widget_get_pointer(Widget,&X,&Y); Jan 02 20:08:22 you do not want to get touch reports from GTK on Maemo - it will slow your app to a crawl Jan 02 20:09:06 i use either x11 itself or xsp Jan 02 20:09:24 but xsp needs beating to a pulp in some situations Jan 02 20:11:51 (mainly due to it being a full touch surface library and operating in windowed mode doesnt work too well without messing) Jan 02 20:12:01 I just read the position when I need it Jan 02 20:12:15 pupnik: I've setup a ruby-maemo apt repository with i386 and armel packages. It has the current stable release. If you installed the other packages manually you'll have to uninstall them. The repo is: "http://stage.rubyx.co.uk/maemo/ diablo user" Jan 02 20:12:27 lcuk: That is because you have not followed advice and created a standard transparent gtk widget filling the whole screen Jan 02 20:13:06 thats because i have not initialized GTK nor do i need to, a core x11 window works nicer and is less resource intensive Jan 02 20:13:06 lcuk: while it does not have to draw itself, it will take care of accepting and processing input Jan 02 20:13:07 alterego: i'll pull my old packages and link to that ok? Jan 02 20:13:15 Yes please :) Jan 02 20:13:22 RST38h, can your touch thingy accept pressure? Jan 02 20:13:42 lcuk: Not using pressure reading - I only need it to simulate joypad Jan 02 20:14:01 then the x11 one i have is exactly the same Jan 02 20:14:18 when compiled without xsp library liqbase drops back to using core default x11 mourse readings Jan 02 20:16:48 alterego: i nuked my gregale/bora debs Jan 02 20:16:58 Ah Jan 02 20:17:04 Well, I'm not supporting them at the moment. Jan 02 20:17:17 If anyone requests them I'll back port but I'm not going to bother otherwise. Jan 02 20:18:30 right Jan 02 20:22:24 Trying to get my head around libosso again ^_^ Jan 02 20:22:42 I'm writing some base code for my future ruby applications. Jan 02 20:37:34 hiya CiroipN810, that clock of yours is looking fiiiiiiine :D Jan 02 20:38:17 oh,good afternoon lcuk Jan 02 20:38:32 happy new year Jan 02 20:38:38 Damnit, "Application did not provide valid .desktop file" :( Jan 02 20:39:37 and a happy new year to yourself, seems odd that we say such things here but not in formal forums Jan 02 20:39:47 10x u, yes works fine on the tablet but i guess still not 100% ready Jan 02 20:41:01 im old school lcuk, every place on internet is the same for me :) Jan 02 20:44:21 CiroipN810, never seen it as such, different perspectives with single liners Jan 02 20:45:50 I always try to keep it real with real heads behind the monitor :) Jan 02 20:46:56 damn! thats where ive been going wrong all this time, i thought i was involved in some big simulation :D :P Jan 02 20:48:19 lol,yes, well some places overwhelm people i guess. I can hardly feel facebook people real Jan 02 20:57:08 Why can't it tell you _why_ the damn .desktop file isn't valid >:( Jan 02 20:58:29 * alterego starts to get angry. Jan 02 20:59:19 * qwerty12_N800 usually finds out his desktop files are invalid when hildon-desktop restarts :) Jan 02 20:59:47 Any tips on what the usual causes are? Jan 02 21:00:06 Can you pastebin the file? Jan 02 21:00:14 Sure, hang on. Jan 02 21:00:16 it not passing the validity test is one primary reason Jan 02 21:00:52 alterego, dont let qwerty anywhere near your package scripts ;) Jan 02 21:01:16 http://pastie.org/350861 Jan 02 21:03:05 tried making the exec line Exec=ruby 1.8 /home/t.swindell/projects/ruby-maemo/framework/framework.rb Jan 02 21:03:15 Erm, the program runs. Jan 02 21:03:21 alterego, on the tablet does /home/t.swindell exist? i thought we had /home/user Jan 02 21:03:33 I'm just getting a ".desktop file is not valid" error when I start it. Jan 02 21:03:48 alterego,, Ah, is this a libosso thing? Jan 02 21:03:58 No, Jan 02 21:04:04 No libosso yet. Jan 02 21:04:32 Hmm, is it hildon-desktop itself giving you the error? Jan 02 21:04:42 Yes Jan 02 21:04:52 hildon-desktop[26373]: GLIB WARNING ** default - Application Ruby Base did not provide valid .desktop file Jan 02 21:05:33 Lemme install the error visualizer and try out your desktop file Jan 02 21:06:18 maybe the runcode returned from ruby when it executes is invalid? Jan 02 21:06:39 O_o Jan 02 21:06:53 It wont return until the application terminates. Jan 02 21:08:55 alterego, its not something as silly as I get from gcc if i dont put a trailing blank line Jan 02 21:09:12 Tried with and without .. Jan 02 21:09:25 to get the default icon btw i dont think you need to specify an icon line Jan 02 21:09:46 i never included one with my liqremote thing Jan 02 21:09:52 Yes, well. I did that to stop it complaining about an icon line :P Jan 02 21:11:03 what complained about an icon line? Jan 02 21:11:11 when you installed it, or when you click it Jan 02 21:11:34 Clicked it. Jan 02 21:23:22 Interesting .. Jan 02 21:23:43 Well, it's working now. It has something to do with the application name me thinks .. Jan 02 21:24:11 alterego, I couldn't get that message repeated here anyway :p Jan 02 21:24:43 It's happening when I use 'GLib#set_application_name' :/ Jan 02 21:26:16 can i play rmvb files on n800 (without conversion) ? Jan 02 21:36:41 Anyone know why g_set_application_name would have an adverse effect on the .desktop file? Jan 02 21:38:10 I wonder if it's to do with WM_CLASS .. Jan 02 21:38:51 Yes, yes it is :) Jan 02 21:38:54 :D Jan 02 21:39:10 StartupWMClass has to be the same as g_set_application_name :) Jan 02 21:45:43 hello all Jan 02 21:46:13 Hello Jan 02 21:46:30 i have invoked 'update-rc.d -f hildon-desktop remove' Jan 02 21:46:46 then ran 'update-rc.d -f hildon-desktop defaults' Jan 02 21:46:55 but hildon desktop still won't run Jan 02 21:46:58 any ideas? Jan 02 21:47:11 Nokia n810, by the way Jan 02 21:47:14 with Maemo Diablo Jan 02 21:47:25 Pffft... no :-P Jan 02 21:47:42 Ummm... don't do that next time? ;-) Jan 02 21:47:57 lol, i am trying to set it up to only run my app Jan 02 21:48:00 and it works Jan 02 21:48:05 however, i cant get it back ;) Jan 02 21:51:21 look at the postinst of hildon-desktop maybe? Jan 02 21:51:27 in var/lib/dpkg/info Jan 02 21:52:57 Okay, so I've got OSSO working correctly now too :) Jan 02 21:54:52 nikola, have you also been messing and manually shifting stuff around inside /etc/init.d Jan 02 21:55:26 no i have not Jan 02 21:55:52 reading on here about adding the service: http://www.debuntu.org/how-to-manage-services-with-update-rc.d Jan 02 21:56:12 does it do basically the same thing when you readd it or does it skip some or does it give errors Jan 02 21:57:49 it places the same links in the rc folders Jan 02 21:57:55 S20...etc Jan 02 21:58:24 can only suggest following Stskeeps' advice and try checking out the postinst Jan 02 21:59:10 but nikola stopping hildon desktop brings up everything else and the machine works fully, just without a desktop? Jan 02 22:02:22 Hmm, so it registers with OSSO correctly, but it still dies after a minute or so. Jan 02 22:03:49 yes, all other apps work correctly Jan 02 22:04:07 does your desktop specify the osso bit and have you got a service file in /usr/share/dbus-1/services/org.maemo.liqbase.service Jan 02 22:04:21 * lcuk raises an eyebrow @ nikola Jan 02 22:04:39 running any X app using ssh will work fine Jan 02 22:04:55 also starting hildon-desktop with /etc/init.d/hildon-desktop works as weel Jan 02 22:04:58 well* Jan 02 22:04:58 how do i shutdown dresktop just for this session? Jan 02 22:05:34 desktop* Jan 02 22:06:08 run /etc/init.d/hildon-desktop stop Jan 02 22:06:22 oooh Jan 02 22:07:25 ooooOOOoooh indeed, but totally OTT, i cant bring back my apps ;) Jan 02 22:07:46 ;) that's true Jan 02 22:07:49 nikola, hd can be anal retentive with desktop plugins to. I once installed an applet and hd would stay white. Tried moving the folder /home/user/.osso/hildon-desktop? Jan 02 22:07:50 you running an ssh session? Jan 02 22:08:35 lcuk, ssh or edit /etc/systemui/systemui.xml to enable the option to let you run an xterm. clunky but works. Jan 02 22:08:38 yeah nikola, im only perking now because of this from this morning, but its merely academic Jan 02 22:08:39 http://www.internettablettalk.com/forums/showthread.php?p=253958 Jan 02 22:09:03 qwerty12_N800, thats the core base desktop thats always there? Jan 02 22:09:45 lcuk, i'm referring to ways to get an shell so you can start hildon desktop Jan 02 22:09:48 hildon apps still expect hildon bits there and look wrong when theres no applets to put in titlebar Jan 02 22:09:55 ive got ssh Jan 02 22:10:00 or i can just reboot Jan 02 22:10:26 rebooting is slow :) Jan 02 22:10:29 wicked how it comes back Jan 02 22:10:33 /etc/init.d/hildon-desktop start worked Jan 02 22:11:01 yeah, that's why i don't get why it's not working on startup Jan 02 22:11:11 i never knew that before :) thanks for the hints nikola, still not sure how to fix your actual problem though Jan 02 22:11:42 i just reflashed the device...gonna do a diff on /etc before and after running update-rc.d Jan 02 22:11:57 to see if anything else changes Jan 02 22:14:57 alterego, :$ whats wrong with using the maemo repositories by the way? Jan 02 22:15:10 lcuk: I don't have access. Jan 02 22:15:22 As soon as I get access to extras they'll be moved there. Jan 02 22:15:26 temporary, or on principle that its ruby? Jan 02 22:15:33 :D heh good Jan 02 22:15:52 alterego, btw, metasploit doesn't like your ruby :P Jan 02 22:16:04 What's metasploit? Jan 02 22:16:58 ~wikipedia metasploit Jan 02 22:17:02 At http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metasploit (URL), Wikipedia explains: "{{Infobox_Software |name = Metasploit Framework |logo = |caption = "Point. Click. Root." |screenshot = |developer = Metasploit LLC |latest_release_version = 3.2 |latest_release_date = {{release date and age|2008|11|19}} |operating_system = Cross-platform |status = Active |genre = Security |license = BSD |website = [http://www.metasploit.com/ www.metasploit.com] }} The 'Metasploit ... Jan 02 22:17:23 Why doesn't it like my ruby? Jan 02 22:18:24 i think hes joking Jan 02 22:18:36 it complains about many bugs being in the ruby interpreter and then quits withdrawa bunch of ruby errors. Pierre's version works, I'll get you a log tomorrow Jan 02 22:18:44 lcuk, I'm not. Jan 02 22:18:46 oooh no Jan 02 22:18:51 O_o Jan 02 22:19:09 s/withdrawa/with Jan 02 22:19:18 fkn text prediction Jan 02 22:19:42 I don't get it. Does it run on ruby? Jan 02 22:19:56 Yep, uses ruby. Jan 02 22:20:05 Okay Jan 02 22:20:47 qwerty12_N800, your knowledge and pie dipping astounds me more and more Jan 02 22:21:46 * alterego gives up. Jan 02 22:21:51 lcuk, not really, I followed a guide on setting it up but tried alterego's ruby version instead :) Jan 02 22:22:17 cool Jan 02 22:22:17 Which version? Jan 02 22:22:30 aha! after doing a diff on /etc....it seems hildon-dekstop is S51, K20...whereas the defaults make it S20, K20 Jan 02 22:22:40 alterego, the current one in your repo Jan 02 22:23:02 What version and package of metasploit did you use? Jan 02 22:23:54 Hmm, starting to feel hungry now. Jan 02 22:24:02 alterego, 3.2 - the current version, it's distributed as a tarball Jan 02 22:25:54 nikola, excellent, at least you know now Jan 02 22:26:31 Is that the "lite" version qwerty12_N800? Jan 02 22:26:39 * alterego orders a takeaway Jan 02 22:26:49 alterego, the full version Jan 02 22:26:59 sh*t .. Too late for a takeaway! :( Jan 02 22:27:43 just rebooted. she works now Jan 02 22:28:31 Does anyone know of a way to get xterm to have a sidebar instead of a bottom-bar on os2008? Why the heck did that get moved? Jan 02 22:29:31 i assume cos they added a keyboard and it makes sense to keep the clickable actions near your fingers.. Jan 02 22:30:06 But for the N800, it just makes your terminal even shorter. Jan 02 22:30:18 Actually, it's not too late! :D Jan 02 22:30:58 alterego, anything is possible if you start the phone conversation with "sudo.." Jan 02 22:31:20 alle die 100.000euro wollen klicken Jan 02 22:31:22 I was looking in to a script to make os2007 packages useable on os2008, but I'm still not able to install them. Jan 02 22:31:23 http://www.pennergame.de/change_please/7962323/ Jan 02 22:31:25 spammer, sigh Jan 02 22:31:25 http://www.pennergame.de/change_please/7962323/ Jan 02 22:31:27 http://www.pennergame.de/change_please/7962323/ Jan 02 22:31:28 http://www.pennergame.de/change_please/7962323/ Jan 02 22:31:32 KamikaziFreak, there's some older versions of osso-xterm for os2008 somewhere with tabs and the bar on the side by fiferboy I think Jan 02 22:31:33 http://www.pennergame.de/change_please/7962323/ Jan 02 22:31:38 oll klicken Jan 02 22:31:46 penner_9090_, i believe thats called spamming Jan 02 22:31:54 but i cant be sure Jan 02 22:32:19 http://www.pennergame.de/change_please/7962323/ Jan 02 22:32:22 oll klciken Jan 02 22:32:26 did penner_9090_ just spam some url here? Jan 02 22:32:28 http://www.pennergame.de/change_please/7962323/ Jan 02 22:32:30 http://www.pennergame.de/change_please/7962323/ Jan 02 22:32:31 yep Jan 02 22:32:31 http://www.pennergame.de/change_please/7962323/ Jan 02 22:32:31 I'll take that as a yes Jan 02 22:32:34 i believe he did Jan 02 22:32:37 heh Jan 02 22:32:42 Thanks! Jan 02 22:32:47 np Jan 02 22:34:02 Chicken Tikka Bhuna, Nan bread, Special rice .. DONE Jan 02 22:34:10 That was my best Gordon impression. Jan 02 22:34:46 E: couldn't delivery food to ruby developer Jan 02 22:35:01 NO!!!! Jan 02 22:35:14 The worst part is I'm going to have to wait about 40 minutes for food O_O Jan 02 22:35:28 the worst part is when you have to ring back Jan 02 22:35:54 "why haven't you delivered my food" "the driver has been out for the last 25 minutes, hang on ill find out" Jan 02 22:35:54 Interesting, I've set the fully qualified application name to osso_initialize and it starts working properly O_O Jan 02 22:36:11 and you get warm plasticbagsweaty soggy naan Jan 02 22:36:15 "He's eaten your food!" .. "Thank you, come again!" Jan 02 22:36:48 Okay, so my base code now registers with OSSO and handles fullscreen button pressed :) Jan 02 22:37:07 Next to map all of the aux keys. Jan 02 22:37:59 * alterego is developing MoR (Maemo on Rails) ^_^ Jan 02 22:38:18 It's going to be the next big thing in mobile space development platforms. Jan 02 22:42:27 qwerty12_N800, thank you. I got it installed. The buttons look horrible (hopefully that's a theme issue that'll fix itself somehow), but at least they're in a more practical area. Jan 02 22:48:50 * alterego contemplates setting 'decrease' to automate his ironing. Jan 02 22:58:22 Can anyone help me with installing maemo sdk? I keep getting dependency errors when I try to do 'fakeroot apt-get install maemo-explicit' Jan 02 23:02:12 It has arrived! Jan 02 23:02:45 oh know! Jan 02 23:05:39 noone can help me? Jan 02 23:07:32 Go through it again, Jan 02 23:12:19 the entire installation? Jan 02 23:14:57 No just delete the targets and try again Jan 02 23:15:13 Actually, have you tried "apt-get update"? Jan 02 23:15:21 several time lol Jan 02 23:15:35 times* Jan 02 23:15:48 Can you pastie.org your /etc/apt/sources.list in target please :) Jan 02 23:17:01 can I what? lol Jan 02 23:18:10 In the development target: cat /etc/apt/sources.list and then paste it to pastie.org Jan 02 23:18:52 oh, gotcha Jan 02 23:20:01 http://pastie.org/350988 Jan 02 23:20:34 Bora ? Old school :P Jan 02 23:20:40 yes yes lol Jan 02 23:21:20 I think that's what I want at least. 770 with os2007he Jan 02 23:21:57 Yeah Jan 02 23:24:14 I think I just fixed it 0.o Jan 02 23:24:15 Well, I dunno :/ Jan 02 23:24:17 GOOD! Jan 02 23:24:19 :) Jan 02 23:25:03 I changed the last line in my sources to 3.2 instead of 3.0 lol Jan 02 23:25:16 :) Jan 02 23:26:03 thanks for the help anyway Jan 02 23:29:34 Heh Jan 02 23:38:45 Well, jott's actually alive... Jan 02 23:52:55 qwerty12_N800, how do you know Jan 02 23:53:51 lcuk, guy said on itt that outpost & sse2 have been updated (rotation) for latest ssu and he's right Jan 02 23:54:15 heh Jan 02 23:54:24 ghosts in the system Jan 03 00:11:15 Is it possible to get a bt mouse to work on n810? I'd need some way to create an external device for clicking a button on a web page ;) Jan 03 00:11:49 Transforming my n810 into a chess timer for sure. Jan 03 00:18:25 forgot who ask but you can remove or add sidebar and bottom scrolling with gconf settings Jan 03 00:18:33 in xterminal Jan 03 01:17:43 Anyone know if the only compiler for the TI DSP used in the OMAP (the TMS320s) is TI's? Jan 03 01:21:01 * robink misses lardman Jan 03 01:25:44 * alterego wonders how to access the GPS. Jan 03 01:38:21 Heh, done it :) Jan 03 01:44:20 Now to pass the NMEA data. Jan 03 01:44:28 Erm .. ~parse ;) Jan 03 01:52:33 what is NMEA alterego ? Jan 03 01:52:54 National Marine Electronics Association Jan 03 01:53:05 It's the format that GPS's generally communicate to other devices with. Jan 03 01:53:37 If you've got your N810 handy, open a terminal do 'cat /dev/pgps' then start nokia maps and you'll see it. Jan 03 01:53:40 is there a c library that does it? Jan 03 01:53:42 It's quite a simple protocol :) Jan 03 01:54:03 Almost certainly, I thought it'd be fun to write my own ruby implementation though :) Jan 03 02:02:41 yes it would Jan 03 02:02:57 then we'll make a quick and dirty pac man game Jan 03 02:02:59 with the gps Jan 03 02:03:11 to play in parking lots Jan 03 02:05:03 hi there Jan 03 02:05:52 (random information) - merinstaller1.2.1-1.armel.deb successfuly built. - now hopfully everyone can install mer now :) Jan 03 02:06:04 can someone explain me a (probably stupid) thing in python setuptools? Jan 03 02:06:32 websplit! Jan 03 02:09:16 how can I set data_files and script_files easily without specifying them all separately when I use python setuptools and bdist_maemo? Jan 03 02:11:03 e.g. if i have a python lib which is using setuptools, python setup.py bdist_dumb works fine, but python setup.py bdist_maemo is does not. Jan 03 02:12:56 PING 1230948776 Jan 03 02:17:20 hey every1. any updates on where to get mer to test? Jan 03 02:18:49 i've just built a deb for the merinstaller :) Jan 03 02:19:17 merinstaller1.2.1-1.armel.deb Jan 03 02:19:41 thank you! is it available in the feeds or go i wget it from somewhere Jan 03 02:20:08 i'll have to upload it, just a sec... Jan 03 02:20:20 thanks! Jan 03 02:21:23 b-man, will this destroy my tablet contents or are there any other strange things i should watch out for Jan 03 02:21:47 na, it's safe :) Jan 03 02:22:06 even though it's a beta1 build Jan 03 02:22:21 http://rapidshare.com/files/179221896/merinstaller1.2.1-1.armel.deb.html Jan 03 02:22:29 Oooo. Jan 03 02:22:47 thank you so much! Jan 03 02:23:24 let me know if you have problems - fsdisk has a tendency to not load partition tables. Jan 03 02:23:40 edit; sfdisk ;p Jan 03 02:24:34 i will update you with how the install goes soon (hopefully) Jan 03 02:24:47 ok :) Jan 03 02:25:58 also, that rapidshare mirror is only temporary - you can only download 10 times :p Jan 03 02:26:15 so i'll send it to stskeeps ;) Jan 03 02:26:17 glad i got mine :p Jan 03 02:28:57 b-man, for your sanity, please warn people on the installer/descriptions this is destructive to a memory card. nothing else they install currently has the capability to wipe out everything on there Jan 03 02:29:40 it does have a warning at installer startup. Jan 03 02:29:51 in xterm Jan 03 02:30:54 but i shuld add it to the discription in the deb. Jan 03 02:32:10 almost done backing up Jan 03 02:32:31 b-man, very cool though :) impressed that you have an actual installer and are selecting memory cards and stuff Jan 03 02:32:46 thanks :) Jan 03 02:32:53 would be handy to create a simple version to just do boot from mmc Jan 03 02:33:45 it does; simple install option and refresh_bootmenu.d :) Jan 03 02:33:50 its always been just too many ancient incantations and risk of cocking up thats prevented me from havin a go Jan 03 02:35:16 in simpler terms, you don't trust my installer just yet. i understand :) Jan 03 02:36:25 no, i meant the boot from mmc thing Jan 03 02:36:35 i do *all* liqbase dev work directly on my only insertable mmc Jan 03 02:36:54 oh Jan 03 02:36:56 theres no way in hell anything is going near that, but i imagine if my luke got hold of it i would lose it all Jan 03 02:37:17 heh Jan 03 02:38:05 hence the warnings, theres nothing out there easily accessible which is interested in vaping the mmc, theres a lot of buzz about mer Jan 03 02:39:19 as b-man, you see its not you specifically, i applaud your efforts and think your script is 100% along the right lines Jan 03 02:40:01 I really need to get into a good sleeping pattern for work on Monday. Jan 03 02:40:12 heh Jan 03 02:40:34 born2wonder_N810, how are things going? Jan 03 02:41:01 just had to move some thing from my memory card. didnt start yet Jan 03 02:42:43 if you chose advancde install, don't use fsdisk - it has issues ;) Jan 03 02:43:05 thnx, ill keep that in mind Jan 03 02:45:02 gtk, does it do its rendering over the normal x11 drawing interface, ie using x11 remoting does gtk go through it? Jan 03 02:45:43 it uses gxmessage and zenity ;) Jan 03 02:46:37 i meant gtk itself :P Jan 03 02:48:16 it does it's rendering over x11 and sends messages va numbers. e.g. 1,2,3. Jan 03 02:48:46 with case and if,then,else. Jan 03 02:49:07 b-man; im going to partition my external memory card through cfdisk in maemo. i will create a root ext3 partition and a swap one and maybe some fat partition as well. i wanna know if i have to put them in some specific order or the installed will let m choose? Jan 03 02:49:22 installer* Jan 03 02:50:07 if you chose advancde installer, it will let you chose your partition layout. Jan 03 02:50:29 thnx, coz i prefer manually doing it. Jan 03 02:51:10 sadist Jan 03 02:51:41 sadist? Jan 03 02:51:47 lol Jan 03 02:52:39 its not really more painfull or more work to me, i enjoy it Jan 03 02:55:02 oh f*ck, stop!!!! i did not include partitions.lst!!! Jan 03 02:55:14 hold on Jan 03 02:56:59 edit; never mind, it's there, phwe. :p Jan 03 02:57:23 b-man, open the window a bit, and perhaps its best if you change your underwear Jan 03 02:58:31 :P Jan 03 02:58:46 hehe, i'm just a little jumpy because this is the first deb. Jan 03 02:59:47 heh Jan 03 02:59:57 * b-man being too careful ;) **** ENDING LOGGING AT Sat Jan 03 02:59:57 2009