**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Fri Jan 09 02:59:57 2009 Jan 09 03:03:15 b-man, every time you ask me. I just wait another 5 minutes before telling you the answer :) Jan 09 03:03:35 lol Jan 09 03:04:46 works fine Jan 09 03:05:02 hmmm Jan 09 03:05:30 does mer have it's own version of hal? Jan 09 03:05:48 (dum question) Jan 09 03:06:03 I'd check...but looks like the mer repository is down :/ Jan 09 03:06:29 :( Jan 09 03:07:40 * b-man trys to look Jan 09 03:07:49 nope, it's from ubuntu Jan 09 03:08:35 What else do you think could be causing the problem? Jan 09 03:09:37 if I was trying to track down this same problem, I'd be looking at hal and dbus interactions...but first I'd figure out how to get a shell on it while it was booted into ubuntu Jan 09 03:10:47 i have another question... this video works to format n810 ?? http://www.metacafe.com/watch/1970588/how_to_update_or_format_nokia_n810/ Jan 09 03:11:45 yes Jan 09 03:12:07 johnx: how could i do that without a keyboard? Jan 09 03:12:34 b-man, telnet over usb is the easiest way. you need to be running linux on your desktop though I think Jan 09 03:13:25 i don't have a linux desktop atm unfortunately :( Jan 09 03:14:06 b-man, does your desktop have a CD drive? Jan 09 03:14:37 hi Jan 09 03:14:37 i'm still waiting on my Dell Studio 15 :) Jan 09 03:14:59 yes, but it's an old clunky win98 pc Jan 09 03:15:44 sorry if this is a stupid question but is the n810 good for spreadsheets and text processing? Jan 09 03:16:17 i'm planning on buying one and that's one of the things i want to do with it Jan 09 03:16:25 TheFatal, http://wiki.maemo-es.org/Actualizando_el_firmware Jan 09 03:17:25 sisto, I would say, usable, but not that great. if that's what you're buying it for you might want to look at something else Jan 09 03:19:18 with no internet Jan 09 03:19:18 (i use my tablet all the time for computing for the time being) Jan 09 03:19:23 johnx: thanks, what do you think would be a be a better option? Jan 09 03:19:39 i saw that gnumeric and abiword are ported to maemo Jan 09 03:20:16 sisto, abiword and gnumeric are available, but at least abiword isn't 100% stable yet Jan 09 03:20:54 johnx: i guess i could make due with just a text editor. that is what i had in mind really Jan 09 03:20:54 johnx: do you think i might be able to fix this from maemo? Jan 09 03:21:26 sisto, ah, well then yes. it's pretty nice for that. There are a couple text editors and notes apps Jan 09 03:21:58 johnx: nice thanks Jan 09 03:23:08 bef0rd: tnks Jan 09 03:23:17 as for better devices for word processing/spreadsheets: maybe an eeePC or similar? Jan 09 03:23:27 are there any other devices besides nokia tablets (770, n800 and n810) ???? Jan 09 03:23:32 * b-man thinks about using his parents pc to fix the keyboard problem ;) Jan 09 03:23:35 (with maemo) Jan 09 03:23:58 sisto: Not with maemo... Jan 09 03:24:41 b-man, what you need to do is be able to test things as you go. for that you need a shell Jan 09 03:24:44 TrueJournals: are there other similar devices out there? Jan 09 03:24:50 i mean without maemo Jan 09 03:25:21 sisto, in a pocketable form factor? not really Jan 09 03:25:29 the only thing that is similar that i can think of is the htc g1 Jan 09 03:25:42 is linux one of your requirements? Jan 09 03:25:47 But... that's a phone ;-) Jan 09 03:26:05 johnx: not really.. linux compatibility yes Jan 09 03:26:08 Most people would say that the iPod Touch is similar to the tablets... but I don't know about that... Jan 09 03:26:11 i use a linux desktop Jan 09 03:26:37 johnx: could i use chroot or a local vnc for this? Jan 09 03:27:05 i guess my only complaint to the ipod touch is that i would have to use itunes... also it lacks a real keyboard Jan 09 03:27:56 b-man, it doesn't work like that...you need to be running ubuntu, not just messing with the files Jan 09 03:28:13 i'm not sure about itunes though... do you always have to use it to install apps? Jan 09 03:28:43 apple is kind of evil in that sense. they fear openness Jan 09 03:28:58 sisto, yeah, you can't install anything apple doesn't approve of Jan 09 03:29:14 * b-man is fusterated about his limited resources :( Jan 09 03:29:25 sisto, (unless you jailbreak it of course, but that seems like a pain to keep up with) Jan 09 03:29:44 sisto: Agreed, I wouldn't call the iPod touch very similar to the tablets... just throwing it out there Jan 09 03:30:05 b-man, get creative. :) your win98 machine will run linux just fine. download an iso, burn on your parents' machine, boot on yours Jan 09 03:30:52 live that is Jan 09 03:31:05 yes Jan 09 03:31:22 ok, i'll try that, when i get the chance :) Jan 09 03:31:26 the other thing i like is the fact that it probably fits in a pocket. Jan 09 03:31:42 i was also thinking about an eee pc but that's not very pocketable Jan 09 03:32:48 yup, in terms of an open system with a keyboard, it's pretty much the only game in town Jan 09 03:33:23 right now i have an I-mate jam. i've had it for 4 years now, so i was thinking of retiring it Jan 09 03:33:33 it's going to be a sad day Jan 09 03:33:35 :) Jan 09 03:33:38 sisto: Perhaps you might want to check out http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Handhelds_with_WiFi_connectivity#Specific Jan 09 03:34:47 TrueJournals: thanks! i do like the Nokia e71 also, but it's very expensive. Jan 09 03:35:01 and the uses are very different also Jan 09 03:35:46 e63 looks somewhat interesting, but I have no love for symbian Jan 09 03:35:46 plus no linux Jan 09 03:36:14 johnx: random question; does the Ubuntu iso come with the installer? (meaning it will do most of the dirty work for me?) :) Jan 09 03:36:41 b-man, yeah, it's a live cd and installer. you can boot it off the cd, play around with it and install if you want Jan 09 03:36:48 OMAP3 should be sweet. Jan 09 03:36:54 b-man, how much RAM do you have? Jan 09 03:37:47 someware between 512mb and 1-2gb - i'll check, hold on.. Jan 09 03:38:16 n810 with 3g would be the perfect device Jan 09 03:38:45 sisto, that's nokia's next tablet :) sometime later this year Jan 09 03:39:19 johnx: nice :) Jan 09 03:39:37 You may want to eek out that I-Mate for a little longer Jan 09 03:39:43 :) Jan 09 03:41:20 jphnx: 128mb of ram - about the same as my tablet :p Jan 09 03:41:35 edit: johnx - sorry Jan 09 03:42:27 eep. might want something other than ubuntu... Jan 09 03:42:37 heh Jan 09 03:42:39 maybe xubuntu Jan 09 03:43:07 hmm Jan 09 03:44:40 BrentDC: eek out? Jan 09 03:45:00 BrentDC: sorry my english is terrible :) Jan 09 03:45:40 * b-man thinks about swaping ram from a unused computer gathering dust in a corner >:) Jan 09 03:46:56 xD Jan 09 03:46:57 sisto, he means "make it work for another couple months" Jan 09 03:47:16 Yes, exactly Jan 09 03:47:48 b-man, a very good idea, but xubuntu is ok with 128MB of RAM, and would be fine for troubleshooting your tablet. You might even like it better than win98 :) Jan 09 03:48:04 Sorry, your english is pretty much perfect btw (except for my horrible slang) Jan 09 03:48:26 i hate win98 :p Jan 09 03:48:32 it's a mixed feeling, i want to get something better, but i also developed some sort of attachment to my old i-mate :) Jan 09 03:48:42 good ridence Jan 09 03:48:49 sisto, keep both :) Jan 09 03:48:52 sorry, but u guys try to put xubuntu to n810 ? Jan 09 03:49:08 TheFatal, no. b-man's old desktop computer :) Jan 09 03:49:17 aaaa =P okok Jan 09 03:49:28 ddr 1/2 Jan 09 03:49:28 * b-man does some frankinstine work on his computer >:) Jan 09 03:49:29 xD Jan 09 03:50:03 b-man, loot the bodies (of other old computers)! Jan 09 03:50:21 but this is all to get Ubuntu working on the tablets, right? lol Jan 09 03:50:53 is ubuntu compiled for arm? Jan 09 03:51:12 debian is for sure Jan 09 03:51:22 sisto, yes: http://ports.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-ports/dists/jaunty/main/binary-armel/ Jan 09 03:51:53 nice Jan 09 03:52:32 i want archon for n810 :( Jan 09 03:52:32 i need it :P Jan 09 03:53:28 this one? http://www.archon.org/ Jan 09 03:53:50 xD no ! Jan 09 03:53:51 the game Jan 09 03:53:57 the C64 game? Jan 09 03:54:02 this one? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archon_(computer_game) Jan 09 03:54:04 oh ok Jan 09 03:54:13 yes ! Jan 09 03:54:14 that one Jan 09 03:54:27 but you can! Jan 09 03:54:43 i have no idea how :S Jan 09 03:54:45 aren't there c64 emulators for maemo available already? Jan 09 03:55:21 http://www.internettablettalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5764 Jan 09 03:55:44 :DDDD a lots of thnks :P Jan 09 03:57:53 * TheFatal go sleep Jan 09 03:57:54 see u later Jan 09 03:58:07 bye Jan 09 04:13:22 does the n810 support 16 gb sdhc? Jan 09 04:13:34 (micro sdhc) Jan 09 04:14:18 i'm back Jan 09 04:16:04 sisto, yes. any micro-sdhc card will work Jan 09 04:16:34 johnx: ok thanks Jan 09 04:16:44 johnx: what do you use it for usually? Jan 09 04:17:17 FWIW: seatbelt really helped with the stability of my 770 running 2008HE, I will be putting it on my other 770 as well. Jan 09 04:17:35 well first off, I have an n800, so no GPS or hardware keyboard. I use it for notes, light web surfing, weather, music Jan 09 04:17:57 sometimes I use it for video if I'll be away from home/my desktop for more than a couple days... Jan 09 04:18:07 ah, and ebooks! it's so great for reading Jan 09 04:20:07 johnx: nice... the ebooks idea crossed my mind, but i didn't think it would be good, but since you tried it already i guess it is :) Jan 09 04:20:39 the one problem is finding un-DRMed ebooks Jan 09 04:21:00 but other than that it's a really nice screen for reading on, just have to adjust the font size to something that works for you Jan 09 04:22:54 https://garage.maemo.org/projects/seatbelt/ -> "seatbelt prevents crashes" Jan 09 04:22:56 lol Jan 09 04:23:45 heh Jan 09 04:24:39 * b-man starts randomly ripping out wires from his computer Jan 09 04:24:51 hehe, just kidding :D Jan 09 04:25:05 i'm not that crazy Jan 09 04:25:08 sisto: supposedly it does something with the way memory is allocated? Jan 09 04:25:36 sisto: all I know is that the browser on my 770/2008HE doesnt cause it to reboot when I try to connect to the uni wifi Jan 09 04:26:35 fireun: that's good. is that specific to the 770? Jan 09 04:26:54 I couldnt say Jan 09 04:27:14 since I own 2 770s, I havnt been able to justify a 800/810 Jan 09 04:27:19 as much as I would like one. Jan 09 04:27:19 sisto, yeah. the n8x0 is a lot more stable. partially from having more memory I'm sure Jan 09 04:27:43 and for the money, I might as well just get an EEEPC Jan 09 04:28:35 and run *real* linux (; Jan 09 04:29:11 "real" linux on a 4" touchscreen is no fun :P Jan 09 04:29:24 fireun: i like the eee 901 Jan 09 04:29:48 johnx, you have a link to Meiz's Mer gallery handy? Jan 09 04:30:18 GeneralAntilles, one sec ... Jan 09 04:30:27 "real" linux is something I can tweak and upgrade Jan 09 04:30:49 nokia's releases are, more "canned" Jan 09 04:31:06 to be fair, they got better with the n8x0 Jan 09 04:31:14 and I'm just running ubuntu anyways :) Jan 09 04:31:14 and I doubt my 770 will ever run a version of maemo past 2008HE Jan 09 04:31:41 probably not, but that's starting to seem like a memory limitation :/ Jan 09 04:32:00 I've got a compaq aero that still pisses me off every time I think about how microsoft screwed me out of ever using it past the year or two it used that OS Jan 09 04:32:19 its got a nice screen. Jan 09 04:32:35 if it ran linux, I'd just slap vnc on it, and call it done. Jan 09 04:33:04 The 770 is so far behind the OMAP2 tablets it's not funny. Jan 09 04:33:12 johnx: can you watch youtube videos smoothly? Jan 09 04:33:20 GeneralAntilles: but its not that old! Jan 09 04:33:29 hm, that seatbelt thing changes swappiness to 100, overcommit_memory to 2, overcommit_ratio to 40 Jan 09 04:33:30 fireun, but it is. Jan 09 04:33:39 sisto, not in the browser. flash is so slow it's not really usable for video...but there is a really nice youtube viewer (2 actually) Jan 09 04:33:45 The OMAP1 was nearing its last days when the 770 came out. Jan 09 04:33:48 ShadowJK: what does that mean? Jan 09 04:33:58 johnx: that's good news Jan 09 04:34:03 fireun, the mobile and embedded space doesn't move like the PC space. Jan 09 04:34:19 Your performance margins are razor thin and each generation is lightyears beyond the previous one. Jan 09 04:34:34 GeneralAntilles: I used to be an embedded developer, dont have to tell me. Jan 09 04:34:42 fireun, it will use swap more agressively, and it's more likely to kill programs before the tablet becomes so slow that it gets rebooted by the watchdog Jan 09 04:34:42 it's like the earlier years of desktop PCs right now :) Jan 09 04:35:17 ShadowJK: does that mean it will cause flash writes to increase in frequency? Jan 09 04:35:18 the other thing of course is that all those libs from desktop linux are pretty memory hungry Jan 09 04:35:35 fireun, then you'll certainly understand why Nokia dropping support isn't the same thing as Ubuntu or others dropping support. Jan 09 04:35:36 fireun, yes Jan 09 04:35:38 johnx: true. Jan 09 04:36:13 swap is on SD card anyway, so it wont brick the device if it wears out... Jan 09 04:36:18 GeneralAntilles: we always rolled back fixes to old hardware roms Jan 09 04:36:29 GeneralAntilles: it was just good business Jan 09 04:36:45 johnx: do you use mytube? Jan 09 04:36:53 ShadowJK: ah, thats what I wanted to know Jan 09 04:37:01 sisto, I use the viewer inside canola2 Jan 09 04:37:54 does anyone here like to listen to podcasts? Jan 09 04:38:29 thats so 2002 Jan 09 04:38:33 d-: Jan 09 04:38:39 Does HE still fit in the internal flash of 770 or is it on the SD card? Jan 09 04:38:44 johnx: is there a way to get canola out of fs-mode? Jan 09 04:38:50 shadowjk: internal Jan 09 04:39:20 x29a, not that I know of. why would you want that? Jan 09 04:39:49 * b-man decided to use a huge swap partition on his hdd to keep things sane for ubuntu installer ;) Jan 09 04:39:57 johnx: to check my mails real quick or see what my backgroupapps are doing Jan 09 04:40:17 x29a, hit the "home" or "swap" key Jan 09 04:40:36 ill try that next time, thank you Jan 09 04:42:05 fireun, you should try linux on the aero. :) saw mention of it in some mailing list from 2004 Jan 09 04:42:17 heh Jan 09 04:43:06 I think that was the other aero Jan 09 04:43:23 the contura Jan 09 04:43:34 compaq aero? Jan 09 04:43:36 the aero 1550 with a NEC VR? Jan 09 04:43:51 s/VR/VR MIPS Jan 09 04:44:08 I'm staring at a defconfig for it right now :) Jan 09 04:44:36 I think I had the 2100 Jan 09 04:44:43 but yeah, the NEC VR sounds right Jan 09 04:44:47 also in the config file :) Jan 09 04:44:53 there was a linuxCE project, not quite the same thing Jan 09 04:45:14 don't know what you'll be able to do with it though, looks like 2.4.0-test8 was about the end of the line for patches :/ Jan 09 04:46:20 johnx: right, its just in the collection with the newton and palmpilot Jan 09 04:46:24 cant do anything with them either Jan 09 04:46:32 sad, huh? Jan 09 04:46:37 and the newton external keyboard I have is nice to the touch too Jan 09 04:46:55 I feel the same about my zaurus 5500, but it's almost kinda supported Jan 09 04:47:03 heh, but is it useful? Jan 09 04:47:09 just need a new battery and another wlan card for it Jan 09 04:47:25 well, it's not as useful as my newer zaurus and nowhere near an n800 Jan 09 04:47:28 I wouldnt mind the aero sitting on my desktop and slideshowing pictures, or as an alarmclock or something Jan 09 04:47:34 I used to use it for IM from the couch Jan 09 04:47:49 i call a Compaq Aero 2160 my own! Jan 09 04:47:50 yeah, wifi is a blessing. Jan 09 04:48:10 not just that: wifi that doesn't drain the battery in an hour Jan 09 04:48:15 i have a collie as well Jan 09 04:48:18 I swear I can feel heat from my 770 when I'm streaming music tho Jan 09 04:48:24 cmon, mention more kewl devices! Jan 09 04:48:31 heh Jan 09 04:48:55 I had a jornada I used as a glorified typewriter, but its screen got squished Jan 09 04:48:56 heh...my c1000 really heats up when copying files with sftp over wlan Jan 09 04:49:06 jornada 568! Jan 09 04:49:23 bricked mine while doing some jtag Jan 09 04:49:23 now the c1000 is a terribly useful CLI machine. still use it for just that Jan 09 04:49:48 its got a harddrive, right? Jan 09 04:49:59 that was the c3x00 Jan 09 04:50:01 I think I had the jornada with the keyboard and CF slot Jan 09 04:50:18 but the SD slot supports SDHC so it doesn't matter that much Jan 09 04:50:40 fireun: jornada 680? Jan 09 04:50:44 ooh! updates for the collie! Jan 09 04:50:57 johnx: openzaurus -> angström Jan 09 04:51:04 but update for opie! Jan 09 04:51:07 x29a, http://www.linuxtogo.org/~thesing/ Jan 09 04:51:35 that x11-image is brand shiney new :) Jan 09 04:51:51 x29a: nope, it had the formfactor of one of those 7" eee Jan 09 04:51:54 probably time to get debian on it Jan 09 04:52:01 b4 sized Jan 09 04:52:34 I was really sad when I found it in a box with a busted screen Jan 09 04:53:04 it was throw in a bag portable if all I needed to do was write a paper Jan 09 04:53:14 kept me from browsing the web while I did it too Jan 09 04:53:19 or playing games Jan 09 04:56:37 heh...my poor cf wireless card ishot to the touch Jan 09 04:57:29 I've also got too many linksys wrts Jan 09 04:57:49 not much headroom for linux there! Jan 09 04:57:57 and yet... Jan 09 04:58:00 runs nice though Jan 09 04:58:05 yups Jan 09 04:58:23 sooo much nicer to work with than a low-end cisco router too :) Jan 09 04:58:37 * johnx boots his collie Jan 09 04:58:54 does maemo use gnome or does it replace it? Jan 09 04:59:17 i'm not quite sure what maemo is :) Jan 09 04:59:19 sisto, it uses parts of gnome, like gtk, but it's a different desktop environment Jan 09 04:59:27 ok Jan 09 04:59:33 but it uses X11 right? Jan 09 04:59:53 yes, xomap Jan 09 05:00:14 and many gnome apps can be run without source code changes (or made to work nicely with minimal source code changes) Jan 09 05:01:06 does it have virtual consoles like ubuntu has? the ones you can activate with Ctrl+Alt+F1, F2, etc Jan 09 05:01:26 no Jan 09 05:01:29 not enabled by default, but there's an x terminal of course Jan 09 05:01:41 and you can get root access easily Jan 09 05:01:48 but can I drop to a terminal and kill the X server? Jan 09 05:02:10 and use it with the console only? Jan 09 05:02:22 you can kill the x server, but the vt isn't enabled in Nokia's distro Jan 09 05:02:45 so you'll be locked out until you reboot :) Jan 09 05:02:48 sisto: you can login via ssh tho Jan 09 05:02:49 so you would have to connect through ssh to use it Jan 09 05:02:57 ... Jan 09 05:03:03 :) Jan 09 05:03:04 sisto, yes, or you could just use an xterm Jan 09 05:03:21 or boot a different distro Jan 09 05:03:42 or hack up Nokia's distro to enable a console framebuffer and run a getty Jan 09 05:04:20 does 'hacking up' equal editing the initscripts? Jan 09 05:04:31 and installing some kernel modules Jan 09 05:04:34 or a new kernel Jan 09 05:04:50 and compiling a getty :) Jan 09 05:05:00 ... and figuring out how to input all the symbols you need when you no longer have the maemo things there to help you :) Jan 09 05:05:44 sounds challenging Jan 09 05:05:54 it is, so just use the xterm :) Jan 09 05:06:16 fullscreen xterm (on maemo fullscreen means no window decorations) is easiest :) Jan 09 05:06:49 yes i was just wondering... i would have no real use for it though Jan 09 05:06:56 haha Jan 09 05:07:01 the only benefit would be having more free memory Jan 09 05:07:23 there is that...but you lose a lot of functionality in the process Jan 09 05:08:44 and if you're planning to run memory hungry apps from the command line you might be best suited by another distro, like angstrom or debian or ubuntu Jan 09 05:08:52 johnx: do you think it's possible to compile a stock ubuntu kernel for the tablets? Jan 09 05:09:06 b-man, compile: yes. boot: no Jan 09 05:09:21 heh Jan 09 05:09:53 why are you interested in that? Jan 09 05:10:05 just curious... Jan 09 05:10:48 the "stock" ubuntu kernel is just as heavily patched for x86 machines as the "stock" Nokia kernel is patched for our machines Jan 09 05:11:11 a vanilla kernel is more possible, and of course people are working on a linux-omap kernel Jan 09 05:11:20 but really, a kernel is a kernel :) Jan 09 05:12:10 has anyone here successfully installed another distro on their tablet? Jan 09 05:12:25 yes, me :D Jan 09 05:12:26 yes Jan 09 05:12:43 debian, ubuntu, android and angstrom Jan 09 05:12:46 Ubuntu jaunty, Debian, Android... Jan 09 05:12:58 nice Jan 09 05:13:13 ubuntu and android are in active development. debian is pretty well usable, but suffers poor battery life for complicated reasons :) Jan 09 05:13:31 did you use specific ports made for nokia? Jan 09 05:13:38 yes :/ Jan 09 05:13:48 Nokia's done some stuff in a non-standard way Jan 09 05:13:52 <`Mace> wow skype lite is a fucking abortion Jan 09 05:14:07 <`Mace> whomever came up with it should be lined up with the iskoot people and shot Jan 09 05:14:17 `Mace, don't hold back. tell us how you really feel :) Jan 09 05:14:22 <`Mace> heh Jan 09 05:14:38 <`Mace> it uses your cell minutes to forward a call Jan 09 05:14:49 #android Jan 09 05:14:52 <`Mace> skype sells itself as "voip" and this is NOT voip Jan 09 05:15:03 <`Mace> GeneralAntilles - they are making it for symbian phones also Jan 09 05:15:14 #symbian Jan 09 05:15:14 <`Mace> skype n800 ftw haha Jan 09 05:15:27 fring on symbian Jan 09 05:15:29 GeneralAntilles, haha Jan 09 05:15:33 ;-D Jan 09 05:15:46 <`Mace> ShadowJK - yeah... fring and nimbuzz work well on the n95 Jan 09 05:16:02 <`Mace> it's just a shame ;) they had the oppurtunity to open up a huge base for skype Jan 09 05:16:13 <`Mace> and wound up producing a program that is worse than iskoot Jan 09 05:16:32 I've gone with gizmo on the n800 anyways. if skype can't be bothered to improve sound quality or implement video Jan 09 05:16:44 yeh video! Jan 09 05:16:45 <`Mace> video on an n800 sucks anyways ;) Jan 09 05:16:49 bast*** Jan 09 05:16:53 <`Mace> haha Jan 09 05:16:54 I want video!# Jan 09 05:16:54 * b-man yawns Jan 09 05:16:58 good night everyone, i'm going to bed. Jan 09 05:17:03 `Mace, eh, it's good enough for a video call Jan 09 05:17:07 'night b-man Jan 09 05:17:08 <`Mace> i suppose Jan 09 05:17:16 johnx, amsn could do it quite well Jan 09 05:17:24 <`Mace> i don't think gizmo has unlimited plans tho Jan 09 05:17:34 did ya give that a whirl john ? Jan 09 05:17:43 <`Mace> i know i was looking at it a while ago and they had no unlimited local plans Jan 09 05:17:46 it even turned the led red Jan 09 05:17:59 to indicate the cam in use Jan 09 05:18:03 amusingly regular VoIP is cheaper for me than skype Jan 09 05:18:15 ShadowJK, that is to be expected Jan 09 05:18:16 <`Mace> ShadowJK - skype is great for the house Jan 09 05:18:19 more competition Jan 09 05:18:21 <`Mace> and on my n95 it was good using fring Jan 09 05:18:25 yeah, called my parents and sister on my sister's macbook. there was some echo on their side as the macbook's mic picked up my voice and helpfully sent it back with a 2 second delay Jan 09 05:18:31 <`Mace> but on my g1 it's trash ;) Jan 09 05:18:46 <`Mace> n800 was awesome to use it also.. too bad there's no cell modem in the n800 Jan 09 05:19:02 <`Mace> i'd have ditched my phone altogether.. suppose an n900 will do the trick from what i've heard Jan 09 05:19:18 Mace, I hope so too Jan 09 05:19:25 I put off buying a new mobile phone Jan 09 05:19:32 iPhone, mmm Jan 09 05:19:32 <`Mace> it's supposed to have a utms modem Jan 09 05:19:35 until that is out Jan 09 05:19:36 <`Mace> so cross the fingers :) Jan 09 05:19:36 well if it has hsdpa you can run voip/skype over it all the time everywehere Jan 09 05:19:46 <`Mace> i know Jan 09 05:19:49 fireun, I wouldnt want an iphone Jan 09 05:19:52 <`Mace> you can just use a bt earpiece ;) Jan 09 05:19:58 <`Mace> it would make for a great "phone" Jan 09 05:20:06 evolution just works with gpesyncd Jan 09 05:20:07 LinuxCode: lots of apps for the iPhone Jan 09 05:20:07 <`Mace> you would just have to pay for a pda plan from your cell carrier Jan 09 05:20:17 fireun, thats besides the point Jan 09 05:20:24 thats all I'm talking about Jan 09 05:20:25 <`Mace> and get a "pay by the minute" voice plan that you'll never use Jan 09 05:20:26 fireun, silly appz anyway..mainly Jan 09 05:20:33 its an awkward shape Jan 09 05:20:36 imho Jan 09 05:20:47 a lighter, a beer glass ?!?!? Jan 09 05:20:53 <`Mace> iphone has fring too :) Jan 09 05:20:55 * johnx has no interest in non-hackable devices Jan 09 05:21:04 johnx, that too Jan 09 05:21:04 <`Mace> i didn't want to pay for an unlocked iphone and i really do like android a lot Jan 09 05:21:10 <`Mace> and i sure in hell didn't want att anymore Jan 09 05:21:11 <`Mace> haha Jan 09 05:21:20 the only thing I like about the iphone is that the Woz hacks his device himself Jan 09 05:21:28 to use all those external appz Jan 09 05:21:33 and proudly says so too Jan 09 05:21:43 and people are making money making iPhone apps Jan 09 05:21:44 <`Mace> hopefully they fix a lot of things that are wrong with it.. like the bluetooth stack in android only supports an earpiece Jan 09 05:21:47 thats a good thing too. Jan 09 05:21:52 I make it a point to not give money to companies that are out to actively restrict what I do with their products Jan 09 05:21:56 but I agree, I prefer open Jan 09 05:22:00 <`Mace> no hid, h2dp, dun Jan 09 05:22:02 <`Mace> wtf? :) Jan 09 05:22:07 <`Mace> not even storage profile Jan 09 05:22:25 fireun, if we could have more maintainers... we could have the entire foss available on maemo Jan 09 05:22:47 <`Mace> android update is due out this month though so lets see what it does :) until then i can just wait on getting an n900 when it comes out Jan 09 05:22:56 <`Mace> hope the hardware doesn't suck Jan 09 05:23:24 LinuxCode: its the standard curse, cant pay to have the apps if you want to stay open, if you close up a bit you have restrictions and too much closure Jan 09 05:23:27 MaceN800, Id like a second sd card slot Jan 09 05:23:39 `Mace, on the n900? non-suckiness is pretty much confirmed :) Jan 09 05:23:45 fireun, I want what I have on my linux desktop Jan 09 05:24:11 I like the keybaord Jan 09 05:24:19 I hate iphones input rubbish Jan 09 05:24:25 its cumbersome and slow Jan 09 05:24:27 <`Mace> johnx - ;) haha Jan 09 05:24:30 LinuxCode: I do and I dont, I like uniform interfaces on small devices where screen realestate is precious and "well behaving" apps are desired most Jan 09 05:24:32 <`Mace> omap3 Jan 09 05:24:37 <`Mace> so that's a good start Jan 09 05:24:55 fireun++ :) Jan 09 05:25:08 desktop apps on 4" touchscreens are not worth it Jan 09 05:25:53 johnx, agreed Jan 09 05:26:15 but if there are different interfaces integrations for it ... Jan 09 05:26:30 I think Maemo is a good start for a non-fragmented interface for mobile linux Jan 09 05:26:30 with hildon I always thought that was the goal Jan 09 05:26:34 <`Mace> johnx - they aren't too bad when they are scaled down Jan 09 05:26:43 <`Mace> i thought quickoffice was very helpful Jan 09 05:26:58 obviously you wouldnt run openoffice on your n810 Jan 09 05:27:00 lol Jan 09 05:27:07 <`Mace> LinuxCode - i did Jan 09 05:27:09 <`Mace> it runs ;) Jan 09 05:27:14 mace lol Jan 09 05:27:16 <`Mace> prints too Jan 09 05:27:18 did it run well ? Jan 09 05:27:20 <`Mace> seriously Jan 09 05:27:32 <`Mace> i guess... kinda slow.. but got the job done and was able to print with cups Jan 09 05:27:39 hehe Jan 09 05:28:06 <`Mace> it was in pb's kde release for maemo Jan 09 05:28:18 <`Mace> cups was seperate install tho when i did it Jan 09 05:28:20 i see Jan 09 05:28:29 <`Mace> starting saturday i'm going to work on taking a look at mer and testing it out Jan 09 05:28:32 <`Mace> and android for n8x0 Jan 09 05:28:42 I mean, I can see using something like that in a pinch, but not as a daily thing Jan 09 05:28:43 <`Mace> although i doubt it will work well without a qwerty Jan 09 05:29:01 <`Mace> johnx - yeah.. quickoffice was nice .. especially with the su8w Jan 09 05:29:16 <`Mace> i think i type faster on my su8w than a normal keyboard because the keys are so close :) Jan 09 05:29:19 * johnx almost never uses his n800 while sitting Jan 09 05:29:49 <`Mace> heh.. i had to type a whole term paper hung over on my n95 in quickoffice with my su8w and got a b on it.. so i can't complain :) Jan 09 05:30:42 <`Mace> they are working on androffice for android which uses openoffice standards.. but i do hope that the quickoffice devs come out with something instead Jan 09 05:30:50 <`Mace> i wouldn't mind paying for quickoffice Jan 09 05:31:00 is there quickoffice for maemo? Jan 09 05:31:06 <`Mace> no Jan 09 05:31:13 * ShadowJK wonders what the thing included with E70 is called Jan 09 05:31:22 <`Mace> probably quick office ;) Jan 09 05:31:32 I hope they fix the gps Jan 09 05:31:34 <`Mace> they have it for symbian.. it usually comes with a trial version but you have to pay for the ral one Jan 09 05:31:39 its getting pathetic Jan 09 05:31:41 <`Mace> i have to buy a new housing for my n95 Jan 09 05:31:47 me and my brother were driving somehwere Jan 09 05:31:54 johnx, out of interest, what phone are you using these days? Jan 09 05:31:56 <`Mace> got lost? :) Jan 09 05:31:57 <`Mace> haha Jan 09 05:31:58 I wouldnt mind paying for the comprehensive quickoffice app, a basic openoffice standards based editor should be free Jan 09 05:32:01 and only by the time we almost got therre it started to pick up Jan 09 05:32:22 <`Mace> fireun - quickoffice saves in ms office formats Jan 09 05:32:35 <`Mace> which i'm guessing is the reason it costs $50 Jan 09 05:32:39 as an option or by default? Jan 09 05:32:47 rediculous Jan 09 05:32:52 <`Mace> not sure to tell you the truth Jan 09 05:33:06 <`Mace> i always just saved it in office 07 format when i used it Jan 09 05:33:18 <`Mace> supports docx etc Jan 09 05:33:37 <`Mace> i need to buy a new housing for my n95 Jan 09 05:33:39 following microsoft in any activity will always be a mistake Jan 09 05:33:42 <`Mace> have scratches on mine Jan 09 05:33:51 GeneralAntilles, Sony Ericsson W51S (an exclusive for KDDI Au) Jan 09 05:34:07 <`Mace> fireun - maybe.. but it is still the corperate standard office suite for about 80% of businesses Jan 09 05:34:12 <`Mace> (that haven't gone bankrupt yet) Jan 09 05:34:14 Looks purty. Jan 09 05:34:36 <`Mace> always better to be safe than sorry ;) Jan 09 05:34:40 GeneralAntilles, and it works, but the interface is ... schizophrenic Jan 09 05:34:40 autocad is also a standard, but you take one look at solidworks and you want to toss autocad Jan 09 05:34:55 john, does that sync with wammu ? Jan 09 05:35:02 My contract's up in Feb and I need to find something subsidized to buy. Jan 09 05:35:08 <`Mace> fireun - yeah.. but if you do and the people you send your draft to can't open it.. then it was all just a waste of time Jan 09 05:35:12 I wish I could pick up a 5800 with contract for under $200 Jan 09 05:35:24 which is why you can save to DWG (autocad) Jan 09 05:35:25 Not much exciting in AT&T's lineup at the moment. :\ Jan 09 05:35:33 or gammu..or have you even tried ? Jan 09 05:35:40 but its not the default, because you compromise detail Jan 09 05:35:44 <`Mace> well.. unless you own your company.. chances are you will NEED to use ms formats for docs Jan 09 05:35:54 LinuxCode, never saw that app before. I honestly don't know, but I somewhat doubt it Jan 09 05:36:04 johnx, k Jan 09 05:36:15 <`Mace> but if you do own your own company you can build a good infrastruction on cheap software haha Jan 09 05:36:22 I want something that I could sync to evolution Jan 09 05:36:22 <`Mace> cheap/free Jan 09 05:36:23 mace: I'm just saying it should be more about the education, than the blind standards keeping Jan 09 05:36:28 i'm off to sleep Jan 09 05:36:32 I actually like the look of the Samsung Eternity a bit. . . . Jan 09 05:36:33 nn Jan 09 05:36:36 see you Jan 09 05:36:37 bye Jan 09 05:36:39 <`Mace> fireun - i agree Jan 09 05:36:44 <`Mace> but unfortunately it is not ;) Jan 09 05:36:56 'night sisto Jan 09 05:37:05 and I wont accept that as the final answer, the only way to move forward... Jan 09 05:37:33 <`Mace> fireun - i'll accept "move forward" if obama's presidency is a success Jan 09 05:37:37 night johnx Jan 09 05:37:46 <`Mace> chances are though.. that in 4 years the US will be in the same sad state of affairs ;) Jan 09 05:37:59 worse Jan 09 05:38:01 <`Mace> simply because in the end moving forward happens in baby steps and not in giant leaps Jan 09 05:38:01 two official 'change' postings today: http://news.cnet.com/8301-13578_3-10133425-38.html and http://www.cnn.com/2009/POLITICS/01/08/defense.appointments/index.html?eref=rss_politics Jan 09 05:38:03 mace: how can an educated move be a complete failure? innaction is the only failure mode Jan 09 05:38:20 fireun: not if the action is worse than inaction Jan 09 05:38:25 is this #politics ? Jan 09 05:38:33 LinuxCode++ Jan 09 05:38:42 I dont live in the US Jan 09 05:38:42 is this #life? Jan 09 05:38:46 LinuxCode: me neither Jan 09 05:38:49 <`Mace> haha Jan 09 05:38:50 haha Jan 09 05:38:54 that was a good one Jan 09 05:39:03 "well geet outa mah country then" Jan 09 05:39:07 there has been a study that goalies jump during 11m shooting alltough the probability tells them to stay in the middle, just because they feel urged to do something Jan 09 05:39:16 <`Mace> anyways... :) i would still hope that there is a broader quickoffice distribution Jan 09 05:39:30 <`Mace> for maemo.. android... symbian.. etc... quickoffice is a very good portable office suite Jan 09 05:39:43 fireun, fine...my country is better anyway Jan 09 05:39:46 lol Jan 09 05:40:10 ;-p Jan 09 05:40:12 "even if it is, it stinks" Jan 09 05:40:18 LIES Jan 09 05:40:20 <`Mace> obama is asking for a stimulus package and tax breaks :) so the govt spends more money yet takes in less Jan 09 05:40:37 cant be worried about a little debt Jan 09 05:40:40 <`Mace> can the fed govt declare bankruptsy ? Jan 09 05:40:45 sure Jan 09 05:40:47 why not? Jan 09 05:40:56 <`Mace> i don't know.. i just always wondered if they could Jan 09 05:40:57 snot like china's gonna repo anything Jan 09 05:41:05 <`Mace> haha Jan 09 05:41:07 any country can go bankrupt Jan 09 05:41:15 I know I've seen city govmnts declare bankruptcy Jan 09 05:41:17 <`Mace> i mean how would that work though? Jan 09 05:41:30 Mace, nothing works ... Jan 09 05:41:31 just like any major corp Jan 09 05:41:33 thats the key Jan 09 05:41:35 <`Mace> i have also.. but i've never seen a fed govt do it Jan 09 05:41:54 <`Mace> who do they report it to? :) Jan 09 05:42:12 <`Mace> does the president walk into congress one day and ask them for a foreclosure sign for the white house? Jan 09 05:42:17 Mace, there isnt a bailiff for countries Jan 09 05:42:20 haha Jan 09 05:42:27 gets written off... Jan 09 05:42:28 "restructuring" Jan 09 05:42:33 or that Jan 09 05:42:47 <`Mace> senators! we are going to have to sell these leather thrones you are all sitting in to break even Jan 09 05:42:51 new management, gets controlled by the creditors, right? Jan 09 05:42:59 <`Mace> and we're going to have 1 senator for each state from now on Jan 09 05:43:27 * `Mace pictures the US Fed govt "cutting back" Jan 09 05:43:38 eh, google for goverment Jan 09 05:43:53 <`Mace> i figure the first thing to go would be welfare and social security :) Jan 09 05:43:56 * `Mace crosses his fingers Jan 09 05:44:18 <`Mace> they're old and poor anyways.. better to let them die off and end the burden on the rest of the country Jan 09 05:44:24 what is wrong with a social security system ? Jan 09 05:44:37 anyway...#politics Jan 09 05:44:44 <`Mace> ask me that again in about 5 years when all the baby boomers start to collect :) Jan 09 05:44:53 LinuxCode, everything. Jan 09 05:45:00 <`Mace> and you're 105 and finally collecting "what you put in" Jan 09 05:45:02 It's not even remotely sustainable. Jan 09 05:45:05 works here Jan 09 05:45:07 pay taxes 4 days out of the week, then send the taxes from your 5th day of work to a special project of your choise Jan 09 05:45:09 <`Mace> it sure isn't Jan 09 05:45:13 LinuxCode: at what tax rate? Jan 09 05:45:20 doc|home, not 7% Jan 09 05:45:21 LinuxCode, "works" Jan 09 05:45:23 <`Mace> are you in canada? Jan 09 05:45:29 <`Mace> :) Jan 09 05:45:30 but then the money you gys pay for medical insurance Jan 09 05:45:37 is pathetic Jan 09 05:45:52 LinuxCode: think about it. If you didn't have to pay taxes don't you think you'd be better off with the savings? Jan 09 05:45:52 <`Mace> LinuxCode - which country are you in? Jan 09 05:45:54 private healthcare is an open pit where money falls into Jan 09 05:45:58 Mace UK Jan 09 05:46:02 <`Mace> oh Jan 09 05:46:05 adn I used to live In Germany Jan 09 05:46:07 LinuxCode: they have one of the best systems in the world. The NHS is a mess. Jan 09 05:46:21 doc|home, in Germany they privatised Jan 09 05:46:28 LinuxCode: completely? Jan 09 05:46:29 and the costs went up and up and up Jan 09 05:46:41 until the German gov said..thats it... Jan 09 05:46:48 taking the piss...and rained spending in Jan 09 05:47:03 LinuxCode: and when they said "that's it" what they did was reduce the incentives for competition to come in Jan 09 05:47:08 doc|home, there is no nhs in germany...they have Krankenkassen Jan 09 05:47:21 doc|home, they said to companies to reduce costs or die Jan 09 05:47:24 LinuxCode: if you want effective anything you need to be prepared to pay :/ Jan 09 05:47:33 doc|home, wrong Jan 09 05:47:42 <`Mace> haha Jan 09 05:47:47 private compnaies need to make more profit every year Jan 09 05:47:47 LinuxCode: eventually competition will come in and the price will go down Jan 09 05:47:53 yeh right Jan 09 05:47:55 LinuxCode: heaven forbid! Jan 09 05:47:58 doc|home, be careful of the inverse though. just because you're paying more doesn't mean you're getting more Jan 09 05:48:01 <`Mace> LinuxCode - social security doesn't work here because our govt always uses it as a stop gap to other things in the budget Jan 09 05:48:02 LinuxCode: so do computer companies Jan 09 05:48:05 how much is your lecy ? Jan 09 05:48:06 <`Mace> and never replenishes the money Jan 09 05:48:06 what is this #economics? Jan 09 05:48:10 d-: Jan 09 05:48:21 and how much are you paying for petrol atm ? Jan 09 05:48:24 yet computer prices have dropped and dropped Jan 09 05:48:24 <`Mace> so in 5 years it will be a total gaggle Jan 09 05:48:31 Government is always less efficient than private companies. Jan 09 05:48:31 considering its 42 usd per barrel Jan 09 05:48:38 <`Mace> LinuxCode - ~$2/gallon at the pump Jan 09 05:48:39 GeneralAntilles, true Jan 09 05:48:39 I don't drive so have no idea Jan 09 05:48:49 but they have better bargaining power Jan 09 05:48:55 LinuxCode: but how much of the fuel price is taxes? Jan 09 05:48:58 $1.54 last time I filled up. Jan 09 05:49:10 GeneralAntilles: private companies have their shareholders needs above those of its clients Jan 09 05:49:11 GeneralAntilles, then why don't we have privately run fire departments? Jan 09 05:49:11 doc|home, and how much pays school fees ? Jan 09 05:49:13 <`Mace> 1.54? Jan 09 05:49:18 <`Mace> it's still $2 here in chicago :) Jan 09 05:49:20 if I was in the US I wouldnt have a degree now Jan 09 05:49:21 GeneralAntilles: I'm not down with that in a goverment Jan 09 05:49:22 <`Mace> damn i need to move Jan 09 05:49:33 or if I did...I would have 40k in USD debt Jan 09 05:49:34 even if WE are supposed to be the share holders, that rarely is the case Jan 09 05:49:36 min Jan 09 05:49:48 LinuxCode: in most countries with public education there's no competition in schooling so you end up with bad schools and high prices (to the taxpayer) Jan 09 05:50:04 LinuxCode, scholarships are abundant if you're even a marginally good student. Jan 09 05:50:07 doc|home, are you the son of David Cameron ? Jan 09 05:50:12 <`Mace> doc|home - i refuse to send my child to public education Jan 09 05:50:14 LinuxCode: no, I read stuff Jan 09 05:50:17 lol Jan 09 05:50:19 <`Mace> :) he is going to a school i have to pay for Jan 09 05:50:20 `Mace: good choice Jan 09 05:50:24 <`Mace> i know it is! Jan 09 05:50:30 <`Mace> the public school system is a joke Jan 09 05:50:31 doc|home, I can tell you dont pay your own bills Jan 09 05:50:37 LinuxCode: I do, and I have no debt Jan 09 05:50:37 johnx, 99% of the time. But garbage collection is private around here. :P Jan 09 05:50:42 <`Mace> like it's my fault that poor people need to know how to read too Jan 09 05:50:46 nor do I Jan 09 05:50:48 <`Mace> why ? to make pamplets for their crack sales Jan 09 05:50:49 <`Mace> ? Jan 09 05:50:51 well student loan Jan 09 05:50:51 LinuxCode: I haven't had anyone pay my bills in four years Jan 09 05:50:52 GeneralAntilles, will you die if your garbage is not collected? Jan 09 05:50:57 but technically I could pay that Jan 09 05:51:00 LinuxCode: and even then that was because I was in uni Jan 09 05:51:03 johnx, besides, fire and police departments aren't there to save your stuff. Jan 09 05:51:08 ok, this is too distracting, and I have homework reading to do. Jan 09 05:51:22 * fireun is back in school for a degree Jan 09 05:51:30 johnx, at a certain point, yes. :D Jan 09 05:51:33 Mace, you cant compare the US to Europe Jan 09 05:51:34 <`Mace> i work hard to make sure my child can go to a good school.. why should the schools be bogged down simply because everybody must burden the cost of sending poor children to school also? Jan 09 05:51:41 there arent jobs for smart people without degrees Jan 09 05:51:46 US has a much bigger drug, gun, crime problem imo Jan 09 05:52:02 <`Mace> LinuxCode - our country was founded on revolution ;) Jan 09 05:52:09 `Mace: what's more, you're paying twice for education. Once for your child's education, again via taxes which are going to education for others. Jan 09 05:52:09 <`Mace> crime is our way of life haha Jan 09 05:52:11 yeah from us.... good riddance Jan 09 05:52:18 lol Jan 09 05:52:31 GeneralAntilles, anyway, point being, sometimes a little inefficiency is worth it to have things there at a subsidized cost when you need them. remind me to tell you about my December at some point. :) Jan 09 05:52:33 <`Mace> doc|home - yup.. it is a HORRIBLE system Jan 09 05:52:37 off into the real world for now Jan 09 05:52:39 in capitalism, apathy pays Jan 09 05:52:42 <`Mace> not to mention the fact that the teachers are the worst in the world Jan 09 05:52:51 johnx, sometimes, but some people think that's always the right answer. Jan 09 05:52:58 LinuxCode: the US has a drug problem only because drugs are illegal. Make them legal and you reduce the incentive for criminals to be involved. Anyone can do the business. Jan 09 05:53:03 GeneralAntilles, people abusing the system are the problem Jan 09 05:53:09 and I say that as a person who hates drugs Jan 09 05:53:13 <`Mace> i had about 40 or so teachers while i was attending school.. and i think there were only 2 of them that no shit.. actually cared about their job and what they were doing Jan 09 05:53:16 doc|home, that applies to the UK too Jan 09 05:53:19 make dope legal Jan 09 05:53:21 LinuxCode, yeah, well, wave your magic wand and make them stop. Jan 09 05:53:23 GeneralAntilles, of course. there is no black and white. Jan 09 05:53:23 tax it... Jan 09 05:53:28 GeneralAntilles, hahaha Jan 09 05:53:28 LinuxCode: no, don't tax it. Jan 09 05:53:30 rofl Jan 09 05:53:41 * LinuxCode waves his magic wand and nothing happens Jan 09 05:53:43 ;-[ Jan 09 05:53:55 <`Mace> we had liberal arts major teachers .. trying to teach advanced algebra Jan 09 05:53:56 LinuxCode: when the government taxes stuff they have more money to do silly things like bail out banks Jan 09 05:54:06 or spend on arms Jan 09 05:54:08 <`Mace> they were HORRIBLE Jan 09 05:54:21 <`Mace> like their student loan required them to be public teachers for 2 years or something Jan 09 05:54:27 doc|home, I like the idea of having a few more new shiny aircraft carriers Jan 09 05:54:30 <`Mace> before they could go get a real job for the private schools Jan 09 05:54:35 <`Mace> and actually care about teaching Jan 09 05:54:37 LinuxCode: why? who's going to invade the UK? Jan 09 05:54:44 doc|home, the US Jan 09 05:54:46 lol Jan 09 05:54:48 oh come off it Jan 09 05:54:49 j/k Jan 09 05:54:56 they can't even control the lands they've already invaded Jan 09 05:55:18 hell, they can't even control the 5 mile patch of land between the airport and the green zone Jan 09 05:55:40 <`Mace> doc|home - i don't know about that Jan 09 05:55:51 <`Mace> more people die in LA in a day than have died in 6 months in iraq Jan 09 05:55:53 well actually they dont anymore anyway Jan 09 05:55:57 `Mace: die how? Jan 09 05:55:58 Iraq controls it now Jan 09 05:56:14 <`Mace> oh random acts of violence i suppose for the most part Jan 09 05:56:14 LinuxCode: meh, a change in flag means little Jan 09 05:56:18 Mace, did you get that from Fox news ? Jan 09 05:56:18 <`Mace> domestics Jan 09 05:56:23 lol Jan 09 05:56:30 <`Mace> :) no.. i just took a wild guess Jan 09 05:56:33 <`Mace> i was in iraq twice Jan 09 05:56:33 haha Jan 09 05:56:37 <`Mace> i think the south side of chicago is worse Jan 09 05:56:40 `Mace: that sucks and all, but it's not a direct result of your taxes :/ Jan 09 05:57:02 <`Mace> i mean.. rhamadi was pretty fucked up Jan 09 05:57:15 <`Mace> all rubble and ww2 looking while we were patrolling Jan 09 05:57:15 Mace, US forces ? Jan 09 05:57:21 <`Mace> was in the USMC Jan 09 05:57:28 <`Mace> got out in july of 07 Jan 09 05:57:32 Mace, and guess who made that rubble Jan 09 05:57:34 <`Mace> finshed my 4 Jan 09 05:57:37 <`Mace> we did Jan 09 05:57:40 ;-p Jan 09 05:57:49 <`Mace> we were blowing shit up left and right.. BUT... they did their fair share of fucking their own city up too Jan 09 05:58:01 the problem is with US forces,... that you guys dont train on Nation Building Jan 09 05:58:09 <`Mace> we sure don't Jan 09 05:58:16 Ugh, nation building. Jan 09 05:58:16 <`Mace> especially USMC Jan 09 05:58:23 <`Mace> we just go in and blow shit up and kill everybody and leave Jan 09 05:58:26 * GeneralAntilles isn't sure why it's any of our business to be "building" nations. Jan 09 05:58:27 they shouldn't be invading nations to have to build them in the first place :/ Jan 09 05:58:28 <`Mace> and let the army handle the rest haha Jan 09 05:58:41 GeneralAntilles, democracies buy goods Jan 09 05:58:43 <`Mace> doc|home - we are just trying to get a base in iraq ;) Jan 09 05:58:49 drives economies Jan 09 05:58:50 <`Mace> or two Jan 09 05:58:51 <`Mace> haha Jan 09 05:58:51 `Mace: oh I know :( Jan 09 05:59:01 LinuxCode, it's their own business to sort out how they want their country to be run, not ours. Jan 09 05:59:04 <`Mace> plus cheaper oil from our newly established puppet govt Jan 09 05:59:04 I can assure you in Zimbabwe nobody is buying anything but food atm Jan 09 05:59:09 LinuxCode: no, democracies lead to mob rule :( Jan 09 05:59:12 <`Mace> whom we will start selling weapons to in about 4 years Jan 09 05:59:21 doc|home, lol Jan 09 05:59:22 and no, I'm not advocating dictatorship :) Jan 09 05:59:29 <`Mace> doc|home - i would Jan 09 05:59:32 It's amazing how every loves to ignore the warnings against entangling foreign involvement. Jan 09 05:59:41 yeh..make me dictator of Britain Jan 09 05:59:42 LinuxCode: it's true though :/ look at obama's change, it's going to bankrupt the country Jan 09 05:59:47 <`Mace> history has shown the greatest nations to ever exist were those ruled by dictatorship that cared for its people Jan 09 05:59:50 I'd much rather next to no government Jan 09 05:59:53 first thing I do is restrict doc|home to 3 hours of inet a day Jan 09 05:59:59 `Mace: such things don't exist Jan 09 06:00:06 <`Mace> sure they do Jan 09 06:00:09 <`Mace> look at arabia :) Jan 09 06:00:11 LinuxCode: who says you get to be dictator? Jan 09 06:00:17 `Mace: saudi arabia? bwahahaha Jan 09 06:00:20 doc|home, I can hope for it ? Jan 09 06:00:21 <`Mace> saudis are living large off 3rd world slaves :) Jan 09 06:00:25 Id ban windows Jan 09 06:00:27 hahaha Jan 09 06:00:29 <`Mace> saudis don't work Jan 09 06:00:29 LinuxCode: and I can shoot you in the face, Who wins? :) Jan 09 06:00:46 `Mace: right, which is why they'll be in trouble once the oil runs out Jan 09 06:00:48 doc|home, you are def in the US Jan 09 06:00:52 LinuxCode: nope :) Jan 09 06:01:02 <`Mace> doc|home - nope. they'll just use the american debt they bought Jan 09 06:01:10 are you going to shoot me with an airgun then ? Jan 09 06:01:13 <`Mace> 1/3 of the american debt is owned by the saudis :) Jan 09 06:01:28 <`Mace> i think china has a huge stake in the US debt also Jan 09 06:01:29 `Mace: heh, will probably be worthless by then :) Jan 09 06:01:30 Mace, arab countries are pretty rich Jan 09 06:01:37 <`Mace> doc|home - true :-\ Jan 09 06:01:38 `Mace: china, japan first iirc Jan 09 06:01:40 very true Jan 09 06:01:50 brb Jan 09 06:01:54 Mace, they had to write off big losses though Jan 09 06:01:58 ;-p Jan 09 06:02:01 <`Mace> haha Jan 09 06:02:17 no wonder they dont like democracies Jan 09 06:02:23 <`Mace> BUT YEAH.... let's hope that skype turns lite into an actual voip program! Jan 09 06:02:28 * `Mace grins Jan 09 06:02:30 we run companies against walls and they lose money Jan 09 06:02:34 yeh Jan 09 06:02:39 I want video! Jan 09 06:02:45 <`Mace> blah screw video Jan 09 06:02:46 <`Mace> :) Jan 09 06:02:49 NO! Jan 09 06:03:09 <`Mace> i would rather not video chat with most people i call on the phone anyways Jan 09 06:03:35 <`Mace> phone conversations to friends and family should last all of but 5 minutes unless it's over something seriously important Jan 09 06:03:43 <`Mace> hello.. ok... all right.. ok then.. bye Jan 09 06:04:18 ;-p Jan 09 06:04:30 Mace, my brother lives abroad Jan 09 06:50:52 http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/7819352.stm Jan 09 06:50:55 interesting Jan 09 07:35:30 Morning all :) Jan 09 07:40:49 morning Jan 09 07:53:59 It's been almost 24 hours since the intoxicating and overwhelming scent of maple syrup assaulted New Yorkers' olfactory nerves again. And even though this is the sixth time the smell has struck, it's unclear where the smell is coming from! Jan 09 07:54:05 And good morning Jan 09 07:55:48 the mapler, an evil supervillian Jan 09 07:56:36 Batman to the rescue! Jan 09 07:57:16 spiderman surely, it's new york Jan 09 08:04:11 Meanwhile in UK: It would seem that the mythical Beast of Exmoor might have savaged its last after a body of an unidentified large animal was found washed up on a north Devon beach... Police raced to the popular surfing beach of Croyde where the carcass of an animal the size of a calf with canine teeth was spotted by a member of the public. Jan 09 08:05:08 Notice how old-skool and stylish UK story is: that is the European cultural heritage for you, not some maple syrup! =) Jan 09 08:28:47 morning all Jan 09 08:31:15 morning Jan 09 09:14:35 Load average: 2.68 3.23 2.40 Jan 09 09:14:53 shit. my n800 is going to explode Jan 09 09:15:41 *melt* Jan 09 09:16:23 aquatix: Cold huh? :) Jan 09 09:16:53 haha Jan 09 09:16:53 Or is isn't it cold there up north? :) Jan 09 09:16:57 maybe Jan 09 09:17:07 installing kde now Jan 09 09:17:42 -12 C in the sun here ;) Jan 09 09:17:54 haha Jan 09 09:18:07 we're getting a foot of snow here Jan 09 09:18:43 Only 10cm here over the last few days. But that is already a lot for NL ;) Jan 09 09:20:36 Goddamn, and after all that they are pissed of bout pirating Jan 09 09:20:54 Spent 2 hours to download trial from Adobe Jan 09 09:27:37 hi Jan 09 09:27:46 X-Fade: it's rather cold here Jan 09 09:27:52 -6C or something Jan 09 09:27:55 is it possible to port apps from maemo to anything else? Jan 09 09:27:57 like skype.. Jan 09 09:28:14 erm, there's already skype on maemo Jan 09 09:28:19 oh Jan 09 09:28:20 nm Jan 09 09:28:26 * aquatix needs to read correctly Jan 09 09:28:30 ☺ Jan 09 09:28:35 *from* meamo ;-) Jan 09 09:28:39 maemo* Jan 09 09:28:43 yep Jan 09 09:29:06 soul9: "port" usually implies taking the source, making (some) changes and recompiling for a different target. We have no source for Skype. Jan 09 09:29:19 yeah Jan 09 09:29:30 well yeah, but skype is in a repository Jan 09 09:29:34 if it has the same hardware and software stack, you can `port' it ;) Jan 09 09:29:39 However, it should be possible to take Skype and run it on any other ARM/Linux system, with Gtk+, X and whatever Hildon libraries it depends on Jan 09 09:29:47 yeah Jan 09 09:29:49 ok Jan 09 09:29:54 How much effort it'd be, I've no idea. And you're breaking the licensing Jan 09 09:30:22 so basically, theoretically it would be possible to run skype on the freerunner, or at least it would be worth it to try.. Jan 09 09:30:25 ok, thanks Jan 09 09:32:35 Oh, hello Jaffa :) Jan 09 09:33:00 lo Jan 09 09:33:01 General told me to ask you if I can participate in maemo.org website development Jan 09 09:33:18 What do you want to do? Jan 09 09:33:24 wazd: Of course you can ;) Jan 09 09:34:11 In fact, is there a CSS guru out there who wants to help make the current designs compatible on all major browsers? Jan 09 09:34:25 indeed Jan 09 09:36:36 Well, I'm very late with my proposals, but I've spent much time with figuring out the best layouts for modern website, so I came up with this. http://s53.radikal.ru/i141/0901/13/2356c7c98e4e.png Jan 09 09:37:09 I know that design is already been approved and thats totaly my fault( Jan 09 09:37:10 wazd: We have a website design meeting next tuesday.. Jan 09 09:37:43 wazd: But that is only to refine the current design and layouts for pages that aren't done yet. Jan 09 09:37:54 Oh, thats great! I thought I've missed January meeting Jan 09 09:38:46 wazd: http://lists.maemo.org/pipermail/maemo-community/2009-January/002870.html Jan 09 09:41:21 X-Fade: In fact I can code all the stuff myself to show the council some real-life layouts Jan 09 09:41:29 a bus driver taking 60s to say a full sentence with next bus stop is horrid. Jan 09 09:41:35 X-Fade: or I can help with existing ones Jan 09 09:41:51 when 'next stop X' is fine Jan 09 09:42:13 wzad: also see http://lists.maemo.org/pipermail/maemo-community/2009-January/002872.html Jan 09 09:43:57 Jaffa: well, the best way is to make site W3C compatible and then fix it for IE6/7 Jan 09 09:44:20 wzad: Yes, I know. However, this is a call for someone to step up and *do* that ;-) Jan 09 09:44:47 Jaffa: I'll see what I can do Jan 09 09:45:07 I'd suggest an email to that thread asking for what's been done to date Jan 09 09:45:35 Jaffa: I'm not CSS uber-guru in fact but I've been working on that kind of stuff already Jan 09 09:47:53 Though I really don't like current design :( Jan 09 09:53:16 wazd: You are going to waste time just like I have done Jan 09 09:54:33 wazd: Also had a design, coded it, but nobody seemed to care really Jan 09 09:56:45 have you got one to see now? Jan 09 09:58:32 yes,a moment Jan 09 09:59:29 wazd: http://fms.komkon.org/MaemoMain.html (please note that it has all the pages mocked up at in one HTML) Jan 09 10:01:14 well, scalable layout is much more advanced than static one Jan 09 10:02:09 wazd: that was the idea Jan 09 10:02:22 In fact "tablet sized" layout is the first mistake of Glaubert's design Jan 09 10:02:25 wazd: als, the idea was to make the best layout with respect to data we want to present Jan 09 10:02:55 wazd: for example, if we just have 2-3 announcements and 20 dev documents, it makes more sense to give more layout space to dev documents Jan 09 10:02:58 It will look silly on FULL-HD screen Jan 09 10:03:31 wazd: Unfortunately, the design chosen is being implemented at a fixed with Jan 09 10:03:43 But it *is* the design chosen, and it /is/ going to be implemented Jan 09 10:03:48 wazd: it really does not matter now Jan 09 10:04:06 Jaffa: yep, and that's my fault :( Jan 09 10:04:10 wazd: I have been present at the original IRC meeting that led to the design choice and it *alread* did not matter then Jan 09 10:04:18 wazd: So do not worry too much Jan 09 10:04:46 RST38h: It's easier to sell architecture designs if it's accompanied by a "pretty" implementation. A fact of life, unfortunately. Jan 09 10:05:39 Jaffa: Why fixed width btw? 800 is too narrow for modern sxreens Jan 09 10:06:11 It's like apple would do w240 apple.com site :) Jan 09 10:06:19 wazd: I don't recall. It's not a decision I was arguing in favour of Jan 09 10:06:20 I still think we need a min-width of 780, not a max width.. Jan 09 10:06:38 X-Fade: true Jan 09 10:06:39 You really do not need any fixed width. It has to scale. Jan 09 10:06:50 But as I said, it did not matter. Jan 09 10:07:14 X-Fade: the unmaximised size of the browser window should be the smallest width at which it looks good, IMHO Jan 09 10:07:15 RST38h: Well a sane minimum is required. As you just can't scale down too much.. Jan 09 10:07:23 X-Fade: 320. Jan 09 10:07:27 RST38h: well, min width is necessary to keep design in some borders, not allowing to be single coloumn Jan 09 10:07:48 wazd: Well, at some width it will break of course, but it is going to be much less than 800 Jan 09 10:08:06 wazd: Given how many 320x240 phones are out there... :) Jan 09 10:08:17 RST38h: well, all depends on layout you chose :) Jan 09 10:08:55 I'd like to do "swapping 4 coloumns layout" Jan 09 10:09:04 2 inner, 2 outer swapping Jan 09 10:09:09 * RST38h wonders if CreateDIBSection returns him a wider bitmap than requested Jan 09 10:09:28 wazd: Ah, columns... Jan 09 10:09:39 wazd: You probably know the problem with columns? ;) Jan 09 10:10:12 RST38h: Well, what exactly?) Jan 09 10:10:13 wazd: If any of your column contain much less data than the rest, you effectively waste space in those columns. Lots of space. Jan 09 10:10:56 wazd: So, if we are talking about a page that will be viewed on a tablet by significant number of people, you do not want columns (in fact, I would not want columns at the desktop too) Jan 09 10:10:58 RST38h: well, true but today it's more positive factor Jan 09 10:11:22 wazd: Yes, you can place ads there :) Jan 09 10:11:39 RST38h: today free space is not "wasted" space, the race of "bits of info per pixel" is over :) Jan 09 10:11:53 wazd: But, to prove my point, open www.slashdot.org and see how ugly and ineffective column design is Jan 09 10:12:16 wazd: reminder: you have got people with 4" 800x480 screens. Jan 09 10:12:18 RST38h: look over some modern sites out there, they have lots of whitespace Jan 09 10:12:52 wazd: and that often (but not always of course) is wrong Jan 09 10:13:04 RST38h: that's why I'd prefer to use swapping coloumns. Thats dinamic-dinamic layout :) Jan 09 10:13:10 wazd: Ask any newspaper worker about column padding Jan 09 10:13:31 wazd: How does it help? They are still columns, no? Jan 09 10:13:59 RST38h: polygraphy and web design are totaly different, there's nothing to compare Jan 09 10:14:16 polygraphy costs money :) Jan 09 10:14:24 Web-page don't :) Jan 09 10:14:50 Why books have white fields on the sides?) It's so much wasted space Jan 09 10:15:12 Whitespace helps eyes to catch the information it needs Jan 09 10:15:50 Web pages do not cost money but my screen space does. Jan 09 10:16:11 When I am using 1600x1200 26" display, it costs less of course Jan 09 10:16:12 Try reading a page full of text on a full hd screen at 10px font without whitespace.. Jan 09 10:16:24 X-Fade: This is not the same Jan 09 10:16:34 No space wasted, but not nice ;) Jan 09 10:16:40 X-Fade: Not talking about space inside the text Jan 09 10:16:42 RST38h: If there was no scrollbars in the world - than it would be true) Jan 09 10:17:03 X-Fade: Talking about inefficient page space use Jan 09 10:17:19 RST38h: It's not inefficent Jan 09 10:17:22 wazd: Guess what? Your tablet effectively has no scrollbars Jan 09 10:17:32 RST38h: I know what you mean, that is why I wrapped around the sidebar on the planet page for instance. Jan 09 10:17:32 RST38h: There is a balance between information density, aesthetics and ease of locating categorised content Jan 09 10:17:41 No kinetic scrolling in MicroB and to scroll with your finger you have to do a lot of physical work ;) Jan 09 10:17:58 RST38h: :D Jan 09 10:18:12 Jaffa: Well, and having lots of empty column space violates this balance. Jan 09 10:18:13 So? Jan 09 10:18:19 hmm Jan 09 10:18:41 an application which counts the scrolling meter would be fun Jan 09 10:18:45 http://www.engadget.com/ Jan 09 10:18:48 Typesetters knew it for years too Jan 09 10:19:00 Look how much whitespace there are Jan 09 10:19:25 RST38h: There is no "violation" of that balance, just a number of different drivers to weigh up Jan 09 10:19:26 wazd: Not a lot Jan 09 10:19:34 Again, you can't compare newspapers and webpages Jan 09 10:19:47 They're totaly different Jan 09 10:20:09 It's like comparing classical music and house Jan 09 10:20:48 Anyways, I dislike web page designs that arrange information into thin columns surrounded by unused whitespace Jan 09 10:21:28 If these pages achieve some balance in your mind, that is up to you. But I find them wasteful and hard to read, especially on a tablet. Jan 09 10:22:20 How do you know what revision of the beagle board you're purchasing from digikey? Or is it always the latest revision? (C7?) Jan 09 10:23:26 is revision C out? Jan 09 10:23:50 Well, Slashdot is not the best example of coloumn layout :) Jan 09 10:24:20 No, it's probably not C ^_^ Jan 09 10:24:34 wazd: Exactly. Jan 09 10:25:03 _B7_ is the latest revision I think Jan 09 10:25:12 wazd: Engadget is decent though: they have got just one, thin column and it only ends after several pages Jan 09 10:25:43 alterego, B7 is latest Jan 09 10:25:51 C is scheduled for February, or March I think. Jan 09 10:25:54 I'd wait. Jan 09 10:25:57 alterego, http://elinux.org/BeagleBoard#Revision_C looks like end of Q1 2009 Jan 09 10:26:05 GeneralAntilles, you still have plans for your beagle? Jan 09 10:26:07 RST38h: I'm sure we can find enough junk for the sidebar to scroll multiple pages ;) Jan 09 10:26:33 johnx, plans aplenty, time and patience left to get the damn thing running again not. Jan 09 10:27:07 always the way of thing... Jan 09 10:27:55 X-Fade: Do you really want to present user with this junk? Jan 09 10:28:11 RST38h: Of course not ;) Jan 09 10:28:20 X-Fade: Then I rest my case. Jan 09 10:28:33 There's some good CSS layout examples on the Zen site. Jan 09 10:28:42 http://www.csszengarden.com/ Jan 09 10:29:55 Btw, why no "Talk" button in main menu? Jan 09 10:30:30 Since ITT will merge with maemo.org Jan 09 10:30:39 RST38h: BTW, it appears that developers will be developing in JS/XHTML/CSS for Palm's webOS - with some talk even of (most of?) the shipping apps being written in the same framework. http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20090108-palm-launches-new-handset-pre-operating-system-at-ces.html Jan 09 10:30:45 wazd: Because that design is from before the announcement. Jan 09 10:30:51 wazd: the design wireframe was done before that was announced Jan 09 10:31:01 wazd: It will be included for sure ;) Jan 09 10:32:21 X-Fade, Jaffa: And that's the second failure of current layout. Ok, there is some space for "talk" button but that would be last. No scalability. Jan 09 10:32:36 wazd: Nice banner? Jan 09 10:33:02 X-Fade: where? Jan 09 10:33:32 Near get involved for instance? Jan 09 10:34:14 Well, it's nice) Jan 09 10:34:42 But I'm not sure with tactics to rush user with activities :) Jan 09 10:34:52 It is still a mock up, changes can be made ;) Jan 09 10:35:50 awesome Jan 09 10:35:51 wazd: the mailing list is probably a better place for this Jan 09 10:35:57 have kde/cups working onmy n800 again Jan 09 10:36:15 glad i installed cups on the ssytem flash... :) Jan 09 10:36:39 Macer: hehe, im just glad my work N800 battery is back and alive again Jan 09 10:36:43 so i can molest that one Jan 09 10:36:47 hey sts Jan 09 10:37:03 well i needed to turn the n800 into something that can print Jan 09 10:37:24 and use wifi so i can use it as an office app thing Jan 09 10:38:02 i guess pb started to use koffice instead of openoffice Jan 09 10:38:16 whatever works i suppose Jan 09 10:38:32 i need to adjust the damn keyboard though... repeat rate is a little quick Jan 09 10:39:52 hm Jan 09 10:40:04 Jaffa: So I suspected (about WebOS) from their announcements Jan 09 10:40:29 Jaffa: Remains to see how successful this thing is though Jan 09 10:40:41 hn Jan 09 10:40:47 hm... kde Jan 09 10:40:56 RST38h, so when will see the js version of VGBA? Jan 09 10:40:58 doessn't eem to control the bt repeat rate for my su8w Jan 09 10:41:03 ttha kind of sucks Jan 09 10:41:11 i remmeber theer being afix for this somewheer Jan 09 10:41:24 johnx: Right after Visual Basic version, sir! Jan 09 10:41:32 hopefully i can find it Jan 09 10:42:08 RST38h, awesome! is the vb port after or before the TIbasic port? Jan 09 10:44:28 johnx: TIbasic port got shut down by NEA =) Jan 09 10:44:38 GeneralAntilles: how long did it take your order to arrive? Jan 09 10:44:49 About a week Jan 09 10:45:01 RST38h, hmm? NEA? I know my problem was always running out of variables O_o Jan 09 10:45:05 Cool, Jan 09 10:45:17 Gives me enough time to setup the build environment and stuff :) Jan 09 10:45:34 Well, and polish some of my code. Jan 09 10:45:45 They were arriving at 200 a week when I ordered Jan 09 10:45:53 Dunno how high the demand is now Jan 09 10:46:01 I would wait for C, though. . . . Jan 09 10:46:12 Too late now Jan 09 10:46:16 Hehe Jan 09 10:46:39 johnx: National Education Associations - they claimed that VGBA on TI calcs subjects them to cruel and unusual punishment n the course of work =) Jan 09 10:46:43 Well, it's proper USB EHCI, twice the RAM, ES3.0 (NEON bugs fixed, etc) Jan 09 10:46:54 I guess it's first thing in the morning in the states. So hopefully it'll get processed and dispatched today :) Jan 09 10:47:10 RST38h, subjects worse on the programmer. did you ever write in it? Jan 09 10:47:12 Hmm...Nokia came up with a new name for N97 - it is now a "webphone" Jan 09 10:47:30 johnx: I looked at it and played with it a little. Jan 09 10:47:42 Scht .. If I knew C was _that_ much better I'd have postponed. Jan 09 10:48:10 johnx: Frankly, FX720 BASIC was better Jan 09 10:48:20 RST38h, 26 global variables, A-Z. no functions, what's not to like? Jan 09 10:48:34 More details on Palm's webOS SDK (Mojo): http://developer.palm.com/ Jan 09 10:48:45 alterego, well, they're cheap, anyway. Jan 09 10:49:20 So you can always buy a second later and relegate the first to STB duty or something. :P Jan 09 10:49:33 johnx: None of this stuff surprises me really. Jan 09 10:51:06 RST38h, ahaha. I went from teaching myself TI-Basic to learning C from an old Unix guy. Almost everyone else in that C class came from VB. They whined, I was impressed with the luxury of naming my variables. Jan 09 10:51:13 johnx: I started with this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elektronika_MK-52 Jan 09 10:51:18 can someone direct me to the maemo patch for the bt keyboard repeat rate issue? Jan 09 10:51:24 johnx: Since then, few things surprise me Jan 09 10:51:26 i know someeon came out with a patch for it Jan 09 10:51:29 i can't find it Jan 09 10:51:46 mmm...thumb typing on a TI-83+ Jan 09 10:52:23 I was listening about the pdp8, no OR, no Load, madness Jan 09 10:53:12 Gotta love the TIs Jan 09 10:53:44 TIs were pretty decent - Z80, graphical screen. I wrote a TI-84 emulator once, it is still somewhere at my disk Jan 09 10:54:04 Around TI89, they switched to 68000 for the CPU Jan 09 10:54:31 damn it, its hard for me to say this, but i really really want palm to release a hsdpa model soon! Jan 09 10:54:32 and started doing cool things like symbolic algebra Jan 09 10:55:01 I had a casio, couldn't clear pixels, could draw lines and dots Jan 09 10:55:16 golf game was the best I came up with Jan 09 10:55:28 t_s_o, I'll hold out for more news about hackability, but then I'm with you... Jan 09 10:56:00 johnx: indeed, but with a whole ui built around JS, how can it not be hackable? ;) Jan 09 10:56:16 altho, now that i think about it, maybe it will be crackable to :S Jan 09 10:56:23 blah Jan 09 10:56:25 t_s_o, probably ships sometime in 2010. ;) Jan 09 10:56:28 damnit Jan 09 10:56:41 sounds like mozilla xul stuff Jan 09 10:56:41 there is apatch for this Jan 09 10:56:42 GeneralAntilles, probably ships soon, but probably costs a small fortune Jan 09 10:56:45 it is so irrittaing Jan 09 10:56:51 i'll find it later Jan 09 10:56:59 Yeah, that too. Jan 09 10:57:25 I'd like to think they have really good privilege separation and sandboxing Jan 09 10:57:35 anyways, i got to say that the recent webkit hack has given my N800 new life :D Jan 09 10:57:36 the whole design totally lends itself to security Jan 09 10:58:24 and memory leaks Jan 09 10:58:26 What resolution are those Picp DLPs? Jan 09 10:58:34 ~Pico Jan 09 10:58:36 methinks pico is a non-free text editor. Try nano as a GPL'ed alternative, or if you insist on pico, download the source for pine from non-free, build it, and install the resulting pico_something.deb Jan 09 10:58:55 Heh Jan 09 10:59:27 800x600, I think Jan 09 10:59:27 alterego, some are 480x320. I saw a pico projector that was VGA and another at WVGA, but I don't remember if it was DLP (or are all pico projectors DLP?) Jan 09 10:59:58 RST38h, programming that thing looks brain damaging Jan 09 11:00:14 RST38h, I'm surprised you started on that and didn't end up a lit major Jan 09 11:00:29 johnx: i _think_ the tech is dpl like Jan 09 11:00:38 not really sure Jan 09 11:00:41 dlp Jan 09 11:00:49 Hmm, that youtube video looks like it was higher, more like 1024x768 Jan 09 11:01:07 I wont bother thinking about getting one unless it's native beagle resolution :) Jan 09 11:01:21 * johnx knows nothing about the tech Jan 09 11:01:32 alterego, native beagle res is pretty high... Jan 09 11:01:41 Coloured lasers and mirrors ;) Jan 09 11:01:51 I thought the beagle could only do 1024x768 Jan 09 11:02:05 heh...it can *play* 720p video :) Jan 09 11:02:08 If it does higher, well, that's awesome because it was a bit limited. Jan 09 11:02:13 it can display much higher Jan 09 11:02:18 Oh, cool. Jan 09 11:02:39 I'll buy a new LCD monitor then :) Jan 09 11:02:52 Actually, I'll probably steal one from work for a while ^_^ Jan 09 11:03:00 (and a projector) ^_^ Jan 09 11:03:55 fullspeed genesis emu, my dream came true :) Jan 09 11:04:31 found it Jan 09 11:04:42 awesome Jan 09 11:05:51 alterego, well it should but I guess most people use 1024x768. should do 1280x1024 no problem...and I thought higher, but now I'm not sure Jan 09 11:06:11 alterego, the higher resolution support seems to be mildly dependent on your LCD Jan 09 11:06:23 as there's a bit of fiddling with the clock rates going on, I think. Jan 09 11:06:29 GeneralAntilles: okay, so the documentation was crap then? You've had it running at a higher resolution? Jan 09 11:06:52 1280x1024 Jan 09 11:06:56 In Angstrom Jan 09 11:07:23 Cool Jan 09 11:07:29 That's just peachy :) Jan 09 11:11:10 has anyone got an acme 100 tonne anvil handy? Jan 09 11:12:17 * alterego drops a handy 100 tonne anvil on lcuk. Jan 09 11:12:36 johnx: ...and you haven't even found out what makes it tick yet Jan 09 11:12:38 ____ ____ ____ ___ Jan 09 11:12:45 I have a 100 tone anvil Jan 09 11:12:49 It's very melodious Jan 09 11:12:54 :) Jan 09 11:13:24 johnx: Once you get acquainted with the 1-bit ring data bus through which a 168-byte message with all the register contents spins in an endless loop... Jan 09 11:13:26 :D heh speaking of melodious :D i put in the coreesound stuff and got my nokia making sound Jan 09 11:14:17 johnx: That is how you find the path to the Great Tentacled One =) Jan 09 11:14:20 admittedly at 1am having it making the loudest most horrible random noise possible wasnt good, but it proved it worked (the neighbours told me it did) Jan 09 11:14:27 (and become His faithful servant) Jan 09 11:15:24 RST38h, i thought you worshiped the IPU? Jan 09 11:16:28 johnx: how's stuff going? Jan 09 11:16:42 lcuk: no, I do not worship the Irish Pharmacy Union. Jan 09 11:18:05 no you twonk, the invisible pink unicorn (i only found out about it from some woman on jaiku Jan 09 11:18:19 lcuk: that is a girlish deity Jan 09 11:18:50 lcuk: I am sure girls have all got some erotic phantasies about its horn, too, and that disgusts me! =) Jan 09 11:19:10 RST38h, i thought you were girlish :P Jan 09 11:19:54 Pretty cool this webkit + kinetic scrolling on current hardware.. Jan 09 11:19:56 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A55C70zC5cw Jan 09 11:19:58 * RST38h performs exorcism on lcuk, just in case Jan 09 11:20:33 X-Fade: pleasepleaseplease bring it to stock microb =) Jan 09 11:20:45 RST38h: It is for microm. Jan 09 11:20:48 microb. Jan 09 11:22:22 X-Fade, :) nice indeed Jan 09 11:23:04 does it do fullscreen as nicely i wonder Jan 09 11:23:25 lcuk: Well, I don't know. But it is a lot better than what Fennec showed us ;) Jan 09 11:23:55 Little depressing that Nokia couldn't manage to ship what a bunch of hobbyists have Jan 09 11:25:40 X-Fade, undeniably so, very very impressed by how thats looking Jan 09 11:25:47 https://garage.maemo.org/frs/?group_id=862 Jan 09 11:25:50 oh ye holy, palm will indeed go hsdpa on the pre. they just foucsed on the sprint cooperation at the presentation Jan 09 11:25:57 You can download webkit-eal there. Jan 09 11:26:44 Source is here: https://garage.maemo.org/plugins/scmsvn/viewcvs.php/?root=webkit-eal Jan 09 11:26:50 X-Fade: irritating that I have to use --no-check-certificate to download from garage.maemo.org Jan 09 11:27:06 (with wget) Jan 09 11:27:23 Jaffa: Hmm you shouldn't have to? Jan 09 11:27:24 ^ Jan 09 11:28:28 ERROR: Certificate verification error for garage.maemo.org: unable to get local issuer certificate Jan 09 11:28:28 To connect to garage.maemo.org insecurely, use `--no-check-certificate'. Jan 09 11:28:28 Unable to establish SSL connection. Jan 09 11:28:40 seems to me that nokia have all hands on fremantle right now, with only token resources focused on diablo, to take care of the biggest bugs. the rest will be left to the community to deal with... Jan 09 11:28:45 X-Fade, thanks for that Jan 09 11:28:48 GeneralAntilles: Yeah, that is wget's problem.. Jan 09 11:28:55 t_s_o, clearly. ;) Jan 09 11:28:59 GeneralAntilles: It needs to fetch another cert. Jan 09 11:29:00 X-Fade: yeah, download pages point to https:// mostly :P Jan 09 11:29:02 X-Fade: http://pastebin.com/m627d362c Jan 09 11:29:14 (which is bloody irritating :P) Jan 09 11:29:14 GeneralAntilles: Which it doesn't have support for.. Jan 09 11:29:25 to bad that they cant place the wifi autoconnect out of offline mode as one of those, as its annoying as hell Jan 09 11:30:24 X-Fade: Yes, but not the stock version? In other words, I can't just install some plugin and have my current gecko-based MicroB kinetically scroll? Jan 09 11:30:51 RST38h: i think it's a drop-in plugin really Jan 09 11:30:53 RST38h: No, this adds webkit to your maemo browser. Jan 09 11:30:59 and you can change engine in the browser ui Jan 09 11:31:06 And you can switch between them. Jan 09 11:31:28 Whoa. 10 megs :) Jan 09 11:32:35 just be glad the most recent version got rid of a equally large dep ;) Jan 09 11:34:14 X-Fade: ah good, you can switch, that was what was stopping me Jan 09 11:34:21 I see no kinetic scrolling though :) Jan 09 11:34:44 Sts: Would be cool to have without webkit even Jan 09 11:34:48 hrmf, i still wonder why scrolling itt in minimal theme using webkit creates so much tearing. i thought the theme was supposed to be light weight. i get less tearing on pages with heavier graphics... Jan 09 11:34:59 X-Fade: not sure if I am ready for webkit Jan 09 11:35:15 wazd: I needed a reboot. Jan 09 11:35:20 I don't see any difference in rendering for now Jan 09 11:35:41 Yeah, I use "WebKit Settings" to switch user agent, but no kinetic scrolling and user agent still reports Gecko & tablet browser. Jan 09 11:35:42 but how about features - downloading, etc? Jan 09 11:36:03 Jaffa: Reboot. Jan 09 11:36:10 downloading dont work yet, instead one get the file rendered as a "page" ;) Jan 09 11:36:14 rebooting Jan 09 11:36:26 Hmm fullscreen isn't half bad.. Jan 09 11:36:40 A bit of tearing/flickering.. Jan 09 11:36:54 X-Fade: indeed, am doing. "WebKit Settings" should tell you do to that (or restart browserd itself) Jan 09 11:37:00 Weheheeew) Jan 09 11:37:26 * lardman twiddles thumbs waiting for the deb to download & install Jan 09 11:37:34 The damping of the kinetic scrolling is a bit high. But still.. Jan 09 11:37:37 iirc, the deb supposedly restarts browserd, so im not sure why it needs the initial reboot after install Jan 09 11:37:38 Nice ;) Jan 09 11:37:47 X-Fade: tweakable in gconf Jan 09 11:38:17 Well, it's pretty nice! Jan 09 11:38:19 t_s_o: Hmm need to check that.. Jan 09 11:38:19 Very nice Jan 09 11:38:33 Even Engadget is scrolling smoothly Jan 09 11:39:12 Fullscreen only works via the menu option. But then how do you get back? :) Jan 09 11:39:13 Full Gmail is usable :-O Jan 09 11:39:19 Some tearing appears but who cares)) Jan 09 11:39:24 X-Fade: full screen button works both ways for me Jan 09 11:39:32 tap the page then try the button Jan 09 11:39:40 its a "focus" issue of some sort... Jan 09 11:39:46 t_s_o: Ah yeah, indeed. Jan 09 11:40:01 t_s_o: Well, a few issues but still... nice. Jan 09 11:41:25 one interesting bit, if one hold down the menu button (most useful on the N800) then one can select text just by dragging Jan 09 11:41:27 one more prove that hardware is nothing, straight arms are all :) Jan 09 11:43:47 heh, could be that one need to tweak a setting in gconf for that selection thing, i dont recall what the default setting was, i just bumped into it by accident Jan 09 11:45:23 hmm, browser doesn't seem to ask for a connection now Jan 09 11:45:35 one known bug Jan 09 11:45:52 and a somewhat annoying one if one have it on automatic timeout, like i have... Jan 09 11:46:21 one even have to poke the browser after the connection is back up to have it retry the connection Jan 09 11:46:45 yep, I just noticed that Jan 09 11:46:46 :) Jan 09 11:47:24 did someone say how to switch between the backends? Jan 09 11:47:39 lardman: Go to the settings menu.. Jan 09 11:47:40 Webkit settings Jan 09 11:47:44 In the main menu.. Jan 09 11:47:47 ah, in control panel? Jan 09 11:47:52 no Jan 09 11:47:53 nope Jan 09 11:48:01 Settings, about Extras. Jan 09 11:48:03 Click apps menu -> settings Jan 09 11:48:11 *above Jan 09 11:48:36 menu > Tools > Settings? Jan 09 11:48:44 blah Jan 09 11:48:53 lardman: No.. Maemo menu.. Jan 09 11:48:57 ah Jan 09 11:48:58 lardman: Not inside app Jan 09 11:49:07 "eBay subsidiary Skype is beta-testing a "Moblin" version of its proprietary VoIP softphone." Jan 09 11:49:13 heh, must be easy after having a hildon port Jan 09 11:49:26 Sts|office: Moblin dumped hildon Jan 09 11:49:28 True Programmer will edit gconf to switch it :) Jan 09 11:49:39 Or reflash the device :) Jan 09 11:49:46 X-Fade: they did? completely? interesting Jan 09 11:49:54 well it's much nicer, better response than microb Jan 09 11:50:13 hehe, anyone for counting scorpions? ;) Jan 09 11:50:30 Some redraw issues on fast scrolling heavy websites, but I think that can be fixed. Jan 09 11:51:21 Give it a month.o Jan 09 11:52:15 Just saw Kate Alhola's video bout GGadgets, very funny accent :-) Jan 09 11:52:31 GAN800: the plan was for browser UI to be open sourced too wasn't it? Jan 09 11:52:32 so moblin dropped ubuntu and maemo ... strange Jan 09 11:52:35 We should give this guy some attention.. Jan 09 11:53:05 He's doing a really great job. Jan 09 11:53:16 X-Fade: i think he's getting quite a lot already, with people testing/commenting/loving it etc Jan 09 11:53:22 the thread is quite actiev Jan 09 11:53:46 hm mono for android Jan 09 11:53:47 haha Jan 09 11:54:04 Sts|office: There are people who don't follow itt, you know ;) Jan 09 11:54:05 Sts|office, for Fremantle. Jan 09 11:54:12 .net coming to a cell phone near you Jan 09 11:54:33 Macer: Mono was ported to the tablets a long time ago? Jan 09 11:54:35 No real discussion of Diablo's Jan 09 11:54:46 GAN800: not a -huge- problem Jan 09 11:54:53 im sure it was? Jan 09 11:55:08 they ported it to android Jan 09 11:55:13 GAN800: if it still uses hildon and friends.. no biggie Jan 09 11:55:30 weird having a percentage instead of number of objects Jan 09 11:55:34 i want to see what a .net app looks like in android Jan 09 11:55:50 Damn, I'm gonna suicide with that worker's music! Jan 09 11:55:53 For a second I thought it was thinking there were 100 objects on every page. ;) Jan 09 11:56:39 My brain can't face so much cheap pop russian music((( Jan 09 11:56:54 wazd: headphones :) Jan 09 11:57:19 I have to listen to them if they screw up :) Jan 09 11:57:45 im trying to get a2dp working, but when i do a2dp enable in xterm, i get a error about a missing argument or something... Jan 09 11:57:45 Wow, I'm not sure if webkit crashed or what, but suddenly I'm back in MicroB. Jan 09 11:57:48 It's better than to stand behind their backs Jan 09 11:57:55 GAN800: it probably crashed Jan 09 11:58:12 seems browserd autorecovers using microb Jan 09 11:58:13 Text entry is unpossible Jan 09 11:58:55 GAN800: No problem here ;) Jan 09 11:59:14 Can't get my finger keyboard Jan 09 11:59:21 * johnx should poke at his a2dp script again...been a while Jan 09 11:59:36 and it's weird about clearing and appending to the entry Jan 09 11:59:37 GAN800: It does the osk for me. Not the finger one.. Jan 09 11:59:41 t_s_o, if you paste the exact error I can tell you if I have an idea Jan 09 11:59:42 Also: crashes. :P Jan 09 12:00:16 GAN800, you're looking at the wrong websites :P user error WONTFIX :) Jan 09 12:00:35 hmm, seems i had uninstalled the package Jan 09 12:02:09 wazd: Just play NoM at full volume for an hour or so Jan 09 12:02:21 heh, thats funny. installed it and didnt get said error. maybe i had a bad install the first time round... Jan 09 12:02:21 wazd: That should suffice =) Jan 09 12:02:55 t_s_o, also, that package and what it does is kind of outdates Jan 09 12:03:18 *outdated Jan 09 12:04:30 ok Jan 09 12:04:56 i was figuring i should give it a spin, unlikely that i will be using the tablet as my primary music player anyways... Jan 09 12:06:33 now that I know how to do deb packages better I should spend about 15 minutes and get something into extras devel, but I don't even use a2dp any more Jan 09 12:06:48 t_s_o: I need to backport some sbc fixes so we get better sound quality Jan 09 12:07:04 lardman, is there a nice package of that? Jan 09 12:07:08 johnx: why not? Jan 09 12:07:40 kills battery life and I can actually tell the difference in sound quality. also my old a2dp headphones are uncomfortable with glasses and huge and clunky :/ Jan 09 12:07:47 johnx: I'll backport it and re-package bluez-utils with it in; I should try submitting the patch as a bug and see if it can be pushed through as an official update Jan 09 12:07:58 t_s_o, less tearing on heavy pages because it takes longer to draw so giving more chance to update lcd before it tries to overwrite it Jan 09 12:08:01 johnx: yeah, new code sounds better Jan 09 12:08:11 (!) Jan 09 12:08:22 you mean the pitch changes, right? Jan 09 12:08:22 ssvb has been patching like mad, he's going for optimisations now too Jan 09 12:08:24 ello lardman Jan 09 12:08:46 johnx: pitch changes are, I think, more related to cpu load, the timing gets thrown off Jan 09 12:09:06 * RST38h wonders if he will finally be able to check if his bt headphones do a2dp =) Jan 09 12:09:09 ah, pitch changes! Jan 09 12:09:10 there are some optimisations which have reduced that, at least on the DSP, presumably it will also hold true for the ARM too Jan 09 12:09:17 It's so awesome!)) Jan 09 12:09:41 I was laughing when I heard my player enthusiasm :) Jan 09 12:09:56 lol, I don't know what some songs are supposed to sound like now, so used to listening to them gooiiinnnggg sslllooowwwllllyyyy Jan 09 12:10:06 lardman: Why would it change the pitch though? Isn't there a constant sampling frequency? Jan 09 12:10:26 or it simply can't keep up? Jan 09 12:10:35 if the samples are sent too slowly the pitch drops, that's mu understanding Jan 09 12:10:49 I had pitches both ways, slower and faster Jan 09 12:11:02 yeah, then it catches up and plays them too fast Jan 09 12:11:15 but with the dsp stuff it tended to be too slow all the time, until it would drop out and reset Jan 09 12:11:25 lcuk: ah, that makes sense. somewhat sadly... Jan 09 12:11:29 now it runs very nicely mind you Jan 09 12:11:51 lcuk: belated hello :) Jan 09 12:12:38 lardman: Ah, so headphones will handle underruns by scaling pitch? interesting Jan 09 12:12:46 so it seems Jan 09 12:13:03 well pitch scaling it just an effect of playing the samples too slowly of course Jan 09 12:13:34 some wierdness going on in the headphone hw Jan 09 12:13:35 it's great too. sounds exactly like a portable casette player running out of battery power :) Jan 09 12:13:46 hmm, does anyone know a way to make the kernel boot the rootfs instead of the initfs? like, through flasher Jan 09 12:13:52 johnx: lol, yeah Jan 09 12:14:13 johnx: anyway, the faster code is far better, and the fixed code sound better too, not clipped Jan 09 12:15:05 guess I should try and get a better package out then. probably not tonight, but "soon" (tm) Jan 09 12:15:19 what's wrong with the existing one? Jan 09 12:15:27 that config file is scary Jan 09 12:15:33 ok Jan 09 12:15:49 and I'd like to do a proper package that can be put in extras or extras-devel complete with .install Jan 09 12:15:58 I'll try to produce a backported bluez-utils on Sunday or early next week Jan 09 12:16:07 johnx: good plan Jan 09 12:16:18 doesn't this shout SSU upgrade problems? i mean, with the havoc tz1 caused.. Jan 09 12:16:43 Sts|office: what's that? Jan 09 12:16:55 ah, it'll be the same version as comes installed Jan 09 12:17:01 well, putting a bluez-utils into extras :P Jan 09 12:17:09 no, it won't go into extras Jan 09 12:17:12 ah, k Jan 09 12:17:33 lardman, actually, maybe we could package it in some other way... Jan 09 12:17:37 I'd prefer it to be released officially with an extra ossoX increment, but that will probably not happen very quickly if at all Jan 09 12:17:55 also, I can use zenity this time Jan 09 12:18:18 johnx: the a2dp support stuff will be fine in extras, would be good Jan 09 12:18:54 well, if it depends on a hacked bluez-utils that's not in extras... Jan 09 12:19:03 qwerty12_N800: around? Jan 09 12:22:52 ack hello Jan 09 12:23:58 GAN800: Ping? Jan 09 12:24:29 anyone know where bofh has gone, no new episodes since dec 12th Jan 09 12:24:46 * lcuk wonders if its moved or just on extended holiday Jan 09 12:25:39 okay, I finaly can code the page Jan 09 12:38:54 lcuk: fired in a crisis! =) Jan 09 12:45:40 Just sent vitae to THG russia btw :) Jan 09 12:45:59 Talking bout "fired in a crisis" :D Jan 09 12:46:27 Sts|office, sorry to nag if you already knew, but I can't seem to reach repository.mer.tspre.org ... Jan 09 12:46:38 johnx, oh, right, i almost forgot O_o Jan 09 12:46:52 server stalled yesterday, going there when im going home at 4pm today Jan 09 12:47:33 alright, I'll poke at something else for a while :) Jan 09 12:47:36 Who are THG? Jan 09 12:49:28 http://www.reallifecomics.com/ Jan 09 12:50:38 heh heh Jan 09 12:51:09 * RST38h is going to ask a stupid question now Jan 09 12:51:24 How do I set the dash pattern in Windows GDI? =) Jan 09 12:52:45 RST38h, insert ubuntu cd and follow instructions Jan 09 12:53:03 RST38h, toms hardware i assume Jan 09 12:54:24 lcuk: Yes, found it with Google but still can't quite believe it Jan 09 12:54:50 lcuk: And, btw, no CDROM drive, so he he he he he he he =) Jan 09 12:55:01 usb will work :) Jan 09 12:55:24 what are you writing for windows for, and if you are doing it in C you are braver than me Jan 09 12:56:11 lcuk: I am writing for money. Jan 09 12:58:36 thg.ru Jan 09 12:58:48 Tom's Hardware Guide Jan 09 12:59:17 wazd: But why, WHY? Jan 09 12:59:35 same reason you are writing in windows :: money Jan 09 12:59:44 i assume Jan 09 12:59:45 lol Jan 09 12:59:49 lcuk: No, I do not mean wazd, I mean THG Jan 09 13:00:49 Well, pretty easy place and they're training studio photography, that I haven't practiced yet Jan 09 13:01:09 And access to some cool gadgets :P Jan 09 13:06:25 New Adobe Dreamweaver is pretty cool, trying to help everywhere it could :) Jan 09 13:10:11 Right, I should make a shopping list for what I'm gonna need with my beagle board. Jan 09 13:10:36 the rs232 connector thing is a godsend. Jan 09 13:10:42 and a usb cable :P Jan 09 13:11:11 and a null modem cable that actually works :P (i found out my connector i had from a mobo was twisted badly) Jan 09 13:11:22 I've got an RS232 cable already with some PC104 boards. Jan 09 13:11:36 wazd: Really strange for them to open a shop here, given how many similar sites already exist... Jan 09 13:11:39 I've got an RS232<->Bluetooth (SPP) so that's sorted too :) Jan 09 13:12:28 What I really need is an S-Video DIM to SCART and a hdmi<->DVI Jan 09 13:12:46 I also need a DVI capable monitor, but I'll steal that from work until I buy my own. Jan 09 13:14:32 cu chaps Jan 09 13:17:44 * lcuk can't wait for a packaged omap3+touch solution Jan 09 13:18:41 lcuk: N97? =) Jan 09 13:19:32 im actually thinking more like a ninja swoop on nokia hq, or maybe movial :D Jan 09 13:19:36 they have plenty Jan 09 13:19:41 infact, wheres Ti based :D Jan 09 13:19:51 *shrug* texas?:D Jan 09 13:19:55 * lcuk dons his ninja suit Jan 09 13:19:57 all they have is calculators and chips though Jan 09 13:20:02 heh yeah good point Jan 09 13:20:07 no its not johnx Jan 09 13:21:23 http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=O7oTlmlfV20&feature=related Jan 09 13:21:31 look here, they have omap3 in handheld touch format Jan 09 13:21:36 johnx: Who knows? Maybe lcuk will find a Mighty OMAP3-Based Graphing Calculator there? Jan 09 13:21:43 johnx: TI-666, if you wish... Jan 09 13:21:52 with the awesome abcdef key layout Jan 09 13:21:53 Sony are real freaks. 1600 on 8" screen... I have 1440 on 19" Jan 09 13:22:27 wazd, yeah nokia are like that as well, 800 in 4" Jan 09 13:22:32 wazd, nah, the freaky part is they plan to ship it with an OS stuck at 96dpi Jan 09 13:22:41 or x2 1600 in 8" Jan 09 13:23:29 But Maemo have zooming and large fonts Jan 09 13:23:32 johnx i agree with that problem, they should supply suitable reading glasses Jan 09 13:23:47 wazd, so does windows Jan 09 13:23:55 and wheres zooming on maemo? Jan 09 13:24:08 Browser :) Jan 09 13:24:15 compile xmag :) Jan 09 13:24:18 [ctrl] mousewheell Jan 09 13:24:33 any browser does scaling surely Jan 09 13:24:53 wazd: Sony's thing is shiny though! Jan 09 13:24:59 (and will probably have a real Intel CPU) Jan 09 13:25:12 RST38h: nope, it's atom Jan 09 13:25:17 anyways, point is maemo is actually sized for a 225dpi screen, and windows won't be, because (unless something has changed) changing font size radically tends to break random apps' layouts Jan 09 13:25:20 what does a fake intel chip look like? Jan 09 13:25:23 wazd: Poor Sony then... Jan 09 13:25:26 wazd, atom is real intel Jan 09 13:25:38 lcuk: but not real chip :) Jan 09 13:25:41 lcuk, fake intel chip? ever heard of cyrix? Jan 09 13:26:04 yeah but thats not "intel chip" its "intel compatible" Jan 09 13:26:11 ish Jan 09 13:26:18 Well, Atom is a real chip Jan 09 13:26:27 yeah and really made by intel Jan 09 13:26:28 Real intel compatible chip by Intel Jan 09 13:26:39 so its not fake Jan 09 13:26:43 lcuk: i guess it would look my intel usb hub. crappiest quality ever Jan 09 13:26:47 but not real CPU)) Jan 09 13:26:50 naah, not fake Jan 09 13:26:58 hey, it is faster than OMAP2! Jan 09 13:27:14 wazd, whats wrong with atom? its revolutionary from intels POV Jan 09 13:27:17 I just wouldn't spend $800+ for a "netbook" with Atom inside Jan 09 13:27:30 heh, and clock for clock, I bet a 603e is faster than an ARM11 as well... Jan 09 13:27:33 eee tablet looks interesting Jan 09 13:27:46 hopefully arm-laptops pop out soon Jan 09 13:27:57 lcuk: well, it does what it meant to do Jan 09 13:27:58 * lcuk dislocates his arm Jan 09 13:27:59 its a poor mans x86, no out-of-order, register renames etc? Jan 09 13:28:16 jaska, it's a fast pentium mmx :) Jan 09 13:28:47 anyway, bbl Jan 09 13:30:14 But UMPC's on Atom are total crap Jan 09 13:30:22 Like benq's one Jan 09 13:30:37 MIDs or UMPCs? Jan 09 13:30:42 who needs that hot brick that works for 2 hours? Jan 09 13:30:46 Both :0 Jan 09 13:30:50 :) Jan 09 13:31:07 someone with no heating? Jan 09 13:31:15 :D Jan 09 13:31:50 so neat to see the CPU market heating up again in the embedded area Jan 09 13:31:56 vista is supposed to scale stuff better, winfx stuff anyway Jan 09 13:31:58 my old p200mmx laptop was nice for doing wlan measurements in -30c.. kept my hands warm Jan 09 13:31:58 heh, pun not intended Jan 09 13:32:31 intel: arm sucks, well, except for that strongarm that we bought, that didn't suck when we owned it, but after we sold it it sucked again Jan 09 13:32:31 iirc, that was the interesting thing comparing via nano to intel atom. atom went in-order to get the wattage down, nano went out-of-order to get speed up. end result, comparable speed to watt ratio... Jan 09 13:32:43 jaska, and now you can relive those old memories with the new, Atom. I'd love to see a clock for clock comparison against a 200mmx :) Jan 09 13:32:45 I don't know details of CPU actions, but why there are still no easy recompilling from x86 to Arm? Jan 09 13:33:12 wazd, there are. look at debian/ubuntu Jan 09 13:33:14 well, the laptop was the slowest 200mmx possible.. problems with l2 cache i think Jan 09 13:33:30 if you have the source, and it makes no assumptions about byte order, register size etc, it might work Jan 09 13:33:34 also if you made it beep while a network card transmitted the hardware locked up Jan 09 13:33:36 ah, separate L2 cache. had to be careful which mobo you picked back then :) Jan 09 13:33:36 etc :) Jan 09 13:33:41 And why then everybody stuck with x86? Jan 09 13:33:43 everything in debian works on ARM Jan 09 13:34:08 because of closed source stuff, and the cost of making faster and faster chips Jan 09 13:34:09 wazd, because it's only easy to recompile if you write proper, portable code in the first place that doesn't make stupid assumptions Jan 09 13:34:15 wazd: to costly to get all those in-house solutions going on new hardware? Jan 09 13:34:28 Maybe better put money in software transition to arm platforms Jan 09 13:34:43 x86 has to be the ugliest possible isa tho Jan 09 13:34:55 wazd, you'd lose so much performance you'd be better off on x86 Jan 09 13:35:10 heh, i keep thinking that there are many offices that run internal systems built around ms office, using the vbscript as a RAD of sorts... Jan 09 13:35:18 (actually, not sure if its ugliest possible, i havent encountered ia64) Jan 09 13:35:20 wazd, or do you mean recoding crappy old windows apps? Jan 09 13:35:31 I don't mean to throw away x86 and use arm everywhere Jan 09 13:35:43 but x86 UMPCs are totally ridiculous Jan 09 13:36:10 yes. should see more cortex-a8 UMPCs soon Jan 09 13:36:41 but windows being x86 only is a pretty big factor right there Jan 09 13:37:14 There's this really hilarious thread about pandora on youtube. It's just one massive flame war about the DS being better than it ^_^ Jan 09 13:37:15 dont really care about windows on that size machines, latest 3d fps games wont run anyway :) Jan 09 13:37:39 * alterego wanna be techie gamers are hilarious ^_^ Jan 09 13:37:41 people don't need OS, htey need software Jan 09 13:38:00 That wasn't an emote ^_^ Jan 09 13:38:13 x86 is like an evil devil child, even its parents can't kill it, as intel tried to do with ia64 Jan 09 13:38:21 wazd, people don't know what they want. Also: "People hate change, even change for the better." Jan 09 13:38:32 ia64 had somewhat of a "second system effect" Jan 09 13:38:35 probably some deeply ingrained survival instinct Jan 09 13:38:59 Destroy Humanity! :) Jan 09 13:39:18 it's like microsoft's backwards compatibility, it makes windows suck more, but they can't leave it out Jan 09 13:39:20 I think mobility will be an important step into the demise of the ia32 architecture ;) Jan 09 13:39:58 wazd, heh, "Now I'm not saying we should kill all the stupid people. I'm just saying we should take all the warning labels off of stuff and let things work themselves out." Jan 09 13:40:11 can we just castrate them? Jan 09 13:40:22 For instance, the next tablet will have the ability to run amazing games through your TV. You can get a wiimote and pair it with the "N900" and you've got a winner mobile console O_O Jan 09 13:40:23 alterego, and the move to computers being more an appliance Jan 09 13:40:35 Exactly. Jan 09 13:41:33 In the future, the only people needing actual workstations will be developers, media producers and service providers. The normal desktop user now wont need one. Jan 09 13:41:43 data portability will be a major thing. to bad that cloud solutions seems hell bent on recreating the proprietary formats of ms office and similar... Jan 09 13:41:47 in the early days of electricity people would have one electric motor that they would swap around to power different things. Then motors got cheap and everything has its own. We're on the verge of that same situation with computers. [no sources cited Jan 09 13:42:04 Heh, cloud computing sounds like vapour where to me ;) Jan 09 13:42:08 the average house has over 100 computers already Jan 09 13:42:16 DNA based storage, now that's something I can see happening ^_^ Jan 09 13:42:19 * alterego chickles. Jan 09 13:42:31 mavhc: did you watch the Christmas lectures ;) Jan 09 13:42:31 johnx: in here, most warning labels are already off Jan 09 13:42:52 johnx: does not seem to solve the problem though, so more proactive measures may be required Jan 09 13:43:08 RST38h, "Hot coffee is hot." "Do not attempt to stop chainsaw with hands or genitals." Jan 09 13:43:16 alterego: to me its mostly about cloud storage then actual computing. in that having contacts, calendar and files online (with automatic mirroring onto devices as they connect) makes for backup and access at the same time Jan 09 13:43:29 t_s_o: I couldn't agree more. Jan 09 13:43:35 I have a setup like that already :) Jan 09 13:43:41 johnx: http://internettablettalk.com/forums/showpost.php?p=255776&postcount=68 <- am i missing anything there? Jan 09 13:43:54 alterego: yeah, my cousin's daughter was in the audience, seeing if we could spot her Jan 09 13:43:58 johnx: "And DO SEE what this button does" Jan 09 13:44:20 I want some Do Not Eat stickers to go around putting on random stuff Jan 09 13:44:21 mavhc: I found them very interesting. Even though I already new it all I still enjoyed watching it :) Jan 09 13:44:42 alterego: they do get to demo the latest stuff, instead of just reading about it Jan 09 13:44:54 Yeah Jan 09 13:45:11 Sts|office, looks good :) Jan 09 13:46:53 at some point I need to be able to download OpenGoogleDocs to my home server, or to EC2 and run it myself to have control Jan 09 13:48:00 mavhc, yeah, RMS thinks the same thing. Jan 09 13:48:46 I'm not too worried as long as I can get my data out Jan 09 13:49:37 heh, danish public started realizing how vulnerable they are if a service provider goes tits up Jan 09 13:49:39 I just host everything myself. Jan 09 13:49:48 I wouldn't trust a anyone else with my data :) Jan 09 13:49:54 company went bankrupt, no way of getting your data out Jan 09 13:50:08 Plus it's good having the fine grain control over every aspect of my application interaction. Jan 09 13:50:09 alterego, I make it a point not to deal with email servers or spam filtering unless someone is paying me Jan 09 13:50:18 Heh :) Jan 09 13:50:27 I don't have any spam filtering and my email box is clean :) Jan 09 13:50:38 I've got a nice little email setup actually, using postfix and dovecot. Jan 09 13:51:03 * Sts|office uses a very cheap mx hotel. works brilliantly. Jan 09 13:51:06 guess my email address got out somehow, or it's just too easy to guess Jan 09 13:51:19 I get spam in every human language Jan 09 13:51:20 Authentication against a MySQL database, POP3 and IMAP4 with TLS. I also wrote a handy Rails application for managing users and domains. Which I use at work. Jan 09 13:51:29 Heh Jan 09 13:51:43 ok, Texrat keeps on talking about SyncML to calendar on Maemo.. Jan 09 13:51:45 where is it? :P Jan 09 13:51:47 I get more spam on my blog, and that has only been online for three weeks O_O Jan 09 13:52:00 opensync ftw! :) Jan 09 13:52:14 I wouldn't trust me with my data either, I'm crap at backing up, I don't care about privacy, easily solved with encryption, just if something is closed/"upgraded" Jan 09 13:52:25 Sts|office: GPE-Calendar/OpenSync supports SyncML Jan 09 13:52:48 k Jan 09 13:53:24 johnx: my klingon spam still getting through? Jan 09 13:54:55 heh Jan 09 13:56:48 mr spock ears for sale on ebay would be a good subject for klingon spam, narrow your market Jan 09 13:56:49 Wow, ebuyer are doing a massive January sale Jan 09 13:56:52 I'm gonna buy a new TV :) Jan 09 13:56:59 johnx: i'm pondering how we can try out nokia's initial green light of maemo.org provided images Jan 09 13:57:53 i'm thinking we can tread waters by a simple "take initfs image from existing firmware image, do one-two modifications on servers and provide under license agreement (and MAC auth) on maemo.org" Jan 09 13:59:58 Sts: That one probably won't fly Jan 09 14:00:22 RST38h: any reasons why it wouldn't? Jan 09 14:00:30 yeah, pulling from initfs seems easiest. Jan 09 14:00:52 Sts|office, have you tried an android kernel with mer, out of curiosity? Jan 09 14:01:03 johnx: think solca did Jan 09 14:01:07 Sts: Well, you are creating a derivative work from their whole initfs, which may lead to customers blaming them for the bugs in it Jan 09 14:01:35 RST38h: http://lists.maemo.org/pipermail/maemo-community/2008-December/002818.html , http://lists.maemo.org/pipermail/maemo-community/2008-December/002824.html Jan 09 14:01:40 RST38h: that's the whole point Jan 09 14:01:44 pulling some choice parts and clearly labelling them as nokia ip would be better Jan 09 14:02:00 so rewriting initfs and taking in the parts we need? Jan 09 14:02:39 ~lart .net Jan 09 14:02:39 * infobot throws .net's poor little doggy off a cliff Jan 09 14:02:40 prolly Jan 09 14:02:41 Isn't the point of doing it server-side, and having the MAC auth/licence agreeement that there's no real restriction on *how* the images are put together Jan 09 14:02:49 yeah, it is Jan 09 14:03:44 so, you want to create new initfs on a Nokia server dynamically? Jan 09 14:03:52 RST38h: maemo.org Jan 09 14:03:53 from pieces taken from the old initfs and your own stuff? Jan 09 14:03:57 And so I can't see that step #1 in testing that infrastructure being "taking existing Maemo image and making a small change [i.e. setting an additional environment var during boot]" being a problem Jan 09 14:04:01 RST38h: yeah Jan 09 14:04:20 Sts: It is cute, but probably won't fly through their legal department Jan 09 14:04:33 RST38h: well, they seemed not to freak extremely at first Jan 09 14:04:36 which is interesting Jan 09 14:04:48 (they were probably just busy to get earlier home for xmas, though .. :>) Jan 09 14:04:48 RST38h: Nokia are involved in these discussions Jan 09 14:04:57 Sts: neural pathways are too long, your post hasn't reached The Brain yet Jan 09 14:05:07 RST38h, they've already been releasing "unofficial" images anyways Jan 09 14:05:21 johnx: Good argument for it Jan 09 14:05:39 I kinda doubt it would atter to them where the image is built at the end though Jan 09 14:06:04 i think it matters how it's distributed :P Jan 09 14:06:21 They would like to 1) avoid liability and 2) avoid IP leakage Jan 09 14:06:21 well, the stuff we want is on the server, and the images would need to be distributed on the server Jan 09 14:06:23 The reason for having it built on maemo.org is that there is then never a version (or component part) which is third party sourced (e.g. Flash) which is out-there not behind a license agreement Jan 09 14:06:27 no reason to pull it down and put it up again Jan 09 14:07:14 If the Flash-bit was stored in mer's git, then anyone could reuse it or build it outside of a Nokia device. Meaning Nokia have been complicit in violating their contracts with third party suppliers. Jan 09 14:07:57 mm, i'd stay clear of even mentioning flash. the more interesting parts are stuff like umac.ko and the wifi firmware :P Jan 09 14:08:19 BTW http://cache.gawker.com/assets/images/gizmodo/2009/01/cadillac-one_01.jpg Jan 09 14:08:19 (and bluetooth) Jan 09 14:08:32 Sts|office: True, but it's a simple way of demonstrating the reasoning Jan 09 14:08:34 RST38h, following gizmodo's RSS feed? Jan 09 14:08:43 johnx: Among others Jan 09 14:08:59 johnx: You haven't seen what DailyRotten brought this morning yet... Jan 09 14:09:09 RST38h, I don't read it :) Jan 09 14:09:20 johnx: Wrong, wrong choice =) Jan 09 14:09:54 RST38h, it's like a supermarket tabloid :/ Jan 09 14:10:02 johnx: Some time around 2004, you did not have to read CNN because all the important news were at DailyRotten anyway =) Jan 09 14:10:46 johnx: Unlike tabloid's most DR's stories are real. Jan 09 14:11:40 RST38h, eh. I have no interest in that kind of drama Jan 09 14:13:37 johnx: is there any other drama left worth interest? =) Jan 09 14:15:00 RST38h, let's just say, I'm happy to enjoy/deal with my own relationships without caring about drama that happens to people totally unrelated to me Jan 09 14:15:06 there are only so many hours in the day Jan 09 14:16:22 johnx: it is temporary. Jan 09 14:16:40 johnx: but DR is forever! =) Jan 09 14:17:12 RST38h, that's the first good argument against my plan to live forever Jan 09 14:24:55 cho {A}{B}{C}{D} Jan 09 14:24:58 *echo Jan 09 14:25:06 kann ich mir so nicht alle möglichkeiten rauslassen? Jan 09 14:25:20 * alterego wonders if fremantle will run on the beagle board Jan 09 14:25:49 alterego, mer :) Jan 09 14:25:50 eichi, was that german language? Jan 09 14:25:54 johnx: 100% agree on that one Jan 09 14:25:55 :) Jan 09 14:26:07 alterego: maemo runs with a bit of hacks, so :P Jan 09 14:29:35 sorry, wrong channel Jan 09 14:32:35 must be getting old. just thought, "Slashdot is really going downhill." Jan 09 14:32:57 it's been going downhill for quite a bit of years Jan 09 14:33:27 for a long time I just held the belief that it was never that good to start with Jan 09 14:33:28 like 10 or so Jan 09 14:33:41 hm, it was possible to change initfs nokia logo right? Jan 09 14:33:53 good question Jan 09 14:33:57 johnx: "Enthusiastic but dull" (C)anonymous about Slashdotters Jan 09 14:34:32 atleast it doesnt play a retarded hands touching animation like the s60 phone i used to have Jan 09 14:34:43 was hoping for some *sane* discussion about that new Palm thing, but slashdot makes ITT look like a mensa meeting Jan 09 14:34:51 Sts: Yep, ITT should have a post on that Jan 09 14:34:56 k Jan 09 14:35:14 it "probably" helps a bit if the initfs doesn't try to convince people it's a nokia initfs.. Jan 09 14:35:15 :P Jan 09 14:35:16 johnx: A moment, I just saw a more meaningful place in google Jan 09 14:36:01 johnx: relatively decent public view snapshot here: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=425631 Jan 09 14:37:11 RST38h, thanks Jan 09 14:46:56 Your mom's a Nokia initfs Jan 09 14:47:02 * alterego wonders where that came from O_O Jan 09 14:47:08 ow, burn Jan 09 14:47:59 alterego: your mom's so big she has her own gravity field! Jan 09 14:48:03 * aquatix blinks Jan 09 14:48:12 not sure where that came from either Jan 09 14:48:29 aquatix: at least mines not big enough to create a point singularity like yours :P Jan 09 14:48:39 oi :P Jan 09 14:49:08 There doing some _very_ good deals at ebuyer on TV's. I'm gonna buy one for the beagle board. Jan 09 14:50:05 heh :) Jan 09 14:50:13 now that's showing a good heart Jan 09 14:50:22 buying your beagle board its own tv Jan 09 14:51:35 :) Jan 09 14:51:46 Well, it's going to get turned into a glitzy 3D PVR :) Jan 09 14:52:02 With support for watching multiple channels simultaneously :) Jan 09 14:52:53 http://alterego.metapath.org/multiplex.png - All those streams are coming from the same DVB-T tuner dongle :) Jan 09 14:54:31 kinda neat though Jan 09 14:54:46 Yah Jan 09 14:54:48 which DVB-T dongle? Jan 09 14:54:57 It's some cheap one, I'll let you know when I get home. Jan 09 14:55:43 repository.mer.tspre.org down? Jan 09 14:55:44 Basically, I was reading a website and you want to get a cheap dongle that's compatible with Linux because the most expensive ones automatically filter out the channel from the multiplex. Where as the cheaper ones stream the whole multiplex, which allows you to access multiple channels _on_ it. Jan 09 14:55:52 Meiz_n810: yeah, should be up in 40 mins again Jan 09 14:55:56 ok Jan 09 14:56:11 If I get another two cheap dongles I should be able to watch every single freeview channel in the UK simultaneously. At least the major ones. Jan 09 14:56:20 provided the server didn't get stolen or something (i have a backup.) Jan 09 14:58:09 Happy DVB-H viewers... Jan 09 14:58:55 I don't think DVB-H has much coverage in the UK :/ Jan 09 14:58:55 altergo: give me your display right now! Jan 09 14:59:11 alterego: Obey!11 Jan 09 14:59:18 :P Jan 09 14:59:21 no coverage here at all Jan 09 14:59:25 wazd: it's my laptops ;) Jan 09 14:59:28 not in the states either, afaik Jan 09 15:00:23 wazd: sudo give display Jan 09 15:00:46 Heh Jan 09 15:01:02 I know we can port x86 apps to an arm system, but can it be done that other way? Jan 09 15:01:05 aquatix: xhost + Jan 09 15:01:16 skibur: Yes. Next question? Jan 09 15:01:18 wazd: or did i have to imagine a Dalek sound with it? :) Jan 09 15:01:30 RST38h: :) Jan 09 15:01:54 With what X compiler? Jan 09 15:05:55 skibur: With a big X compiler! Jan 09 15:07:37 o nevermind, its been done. ---> http://www.armedslack.org/ Jan 09 15:14:21 A, I need a scatchbox Jan 09 15:18:48 qwerty12, its fairly easy to make a diablo kernel that boots rootfs instead of initfs isn't it? Jan 09 15:18:56 StsN800, yes Jan 09 15:19:30 anything i can prod you for? Jan 09 15:20:08 just pondering best way to make a flashable mer at this stag Jan 09 15:20:10 e Jan 09 15:20:35 And you start components from initfs separately/or use your own replacements? Jan 09 15:21:10 yeah Jan 09 15:21:31 Wait, I'll see if I can knock up an standard diablo kernel that boots from rootfs. Jan 09 15:21:53 we cannot distribute a initfs atm so Jan 09 15:22:31 Want fanoush's mmc patch in there for good measure? :D Jan 09 15:22:44 hehe Jan 09 15:23:22 the act of finding which one is internal/external is a nightmare Jan 09 15:23:22 (can't believe Nokia messed things up, it's ok to ship a device that does that but not a kernel & xserver with rotation... incompetent shits) Jan 09 15:27:07 yea Jan 09 15:28:44 if it works feel free to add community fixes Jan 09 15:28:56 rotation is good Jan 09 15:29:14 Does Mer support Xrandr yet? Jan 09 15:29:24 think so Jan 09 15:29:29 xorg Jan 09 15:29:37 Cool :-) Jan 09 15:31:28 Meiz_n810, rep up again Jan 09 15:38:49 ffs, why does menuconfig suck balls Jan 09 15:43:50 * Stskeeps tries to figure out what pizza to order Jan 09 15:44:12 Weed special Jan 09 15:48:54 Screw this, I won't make any templates, let's sit with 5th grader website, okay thats fine Jan 09 15:49:32 afternoon wazd Jan 09 15:49:40 :) Jan 09 15:51:42 Really just time wasting, I can put a .png in portfolio Jan 09 15:52:10 * qwerty12 kills my n800 counterpart. Die bitch Jan 09 15:52:59 wazd: applying for a job or something? :P Jan 09 15:53:36 Maemo doesn't like being booted without its initfs :> Jan 09 15:53:58 qwerty12: probably not Jan 09 15:54:06 I know not Jan 09 15:54:21 No it's won't boot :) Jan 09 15:54:27 it* Jan 09 15:55:00 Just tried to push my maemo.org template Jan 09 15:55:54 But unfortunately I'm late and there are already 4 (!) pages made with chosen one Jan 09 15:56:16 wazd: Doesn't mean that everything is set in stone. Jan 09 15:56:38 wazd: Although the global theme is agreed on.. Jan 09 15:56:59 There is still a lot of layout work to be done.. Jan 09 15:59:05 X_Fade: it's really not the level of advanced developement platform website IMHO, and not only mine Jan 09 15:59:44 X_Fade: Just look around, check other websites, not only Canola2 ones Jan 09 15:59:59 X-Fade: Check Nokia.com at last :) Jan 09 16:01:07 wazd: Sorry, I can't. Is down for me.. Jan 09 16:01:29 X-Fade: All these stamps, rounded corners and washed floors are already gone Jan 09 16:01:50 X-Fade: They were trends 2 or three years ago Jan 09 16:03:05 Oooo, I want one! http://specialcomp.com/beagleboard/DSCN0320.JPG Jan 09 16:03:14 Though, I might make my own. Jan 09 16:04:18 X-Fade: Now they're all history. Only apple uses it, cause they used this style for whole life Jan 09 16:06:28 X-Fade: And now you're making a website for 2 or 3 year lifecycle in style that's already old Jan 09 16:07:47 at least it's not https://usshop.ubuntu.com/training.php?catid=5 Jan 09 16:09:07 Stskeeps: Not dramaticaly far from it in fact Jan 09 16:10:08 wazd: It is a community project, not a company. Jan 09 16:10:38 X-Fade: And that allows it to suck right from the start?) Jan 09 16:10:58 X-Fade: Nokia spent zillions of euros on site redesign Jan 09 16:12:20 X-Fade: I don't think they spent that bag of money on bad product Jan 09 16:12:27 wazd: But you also have to understand that everything is taste. Some like it, some don't. Jan 09 16:12:45 damn, that pizza came fast :P Jan 09 16:13:29 Stskeeps: I have Pizza restraunt right in my building so they just fly to my floor with it :) Jan 09 16:14:16 X-Fade: I totaly agree, and the main goal is to make site cover maximum of peoples tastes Jan 09 16:14:56 I think that the most important thing is the layout, the way information is presented and can be found. Jan 09 16:15:14 Things like rounded edges is just sugar. Jan 09 16:15:47 And can easily be changed by just tweaking the css. Jan 09 16:17:09 X-Fade: Well, you're making a web site to remake it later? Jan 09 16:17:32 No, but I don't expect a look to last very long either ;) Jan 09 16:18:17 X-Fade: http://www.artlebedev.ru/ here's the site of most popular russian design studio Jan 09 16:18:31 X-Fade: Optimus Maximus and stuff Jan 09 16:18:49 wazd: That cries ugly to me? Jan 09 16:19:24 X-Fade: yes, and it's 5 years old Jan 09 16:19:57 You have to understand that the design was done by the guy who designed the logo. And that logo was picked by community members. Jan 09 16:20:54 Everything has been done out in the open. Current design is still open for tweaks, but it was picked a few months ago. Jan 09 16:21:30 X-Fade: And that's my fault that I've lost this discussion Jan 09 16:22:20 X-Fade: Why the web-site design is done by logo designer? Jan 09 16:22:46 wazd: But as said, there is still a lot open to be discussed. But I'm really not the one to talk to. Post to the list. Jan 09 16:28:14 X-Fade: ok, I'll write my observations in some gentle form :) Jan 09 16:29:18 * lcuk bows his head Jan 09 16:29:26 * lcuk mourns the loss of another of his apps Jan 09 16:30:20 Sorry for my bad passion but I feel really bad when something really bad in desing happening that affects me :) Jan 09 16:30:26 lcuk: liqsanity? Jan 09 16:31:45 no, the mighty wheels of change bring about vb.net apps which are less capable, slower (but prettier), and means more good code is put on the scrapheap :) in this case its been stable since 2002 Jan 09 16:32:24 what text editor can i use to modify some .xml file ? Jan 09 16:32:32 vi Jan 09 16:32:35 emacs Jan 09 16:32:48 hexedit Jan 09 16:32:53 liqed ;) Jan 09 16:33:03 but from terminal Jan 09 16:34:55 vi, emacs or nano Jan 09 16:35:43 tnhks Jan 09 16:36:38 X-Fade: are donwload statistics graphs working? They all say "Last update: 2008-12-24 09:20 UTC" Jan 09 16:51:57 mikkov_: I'm waiting for the stats for last week of 2008, the stats generator overlapped and I requested new ones. Jan 09 16:54:31 X-Fade: thanks. btw about the Pearls, I think that aisleriot should be listed in the Pearl list. http://maemo.org/downloads/product/OS2008/aisleriot/ Jan 09 16:55:34 mikkov_: Is it still poluting the Extras menu? Jan 09 16:55:45 mikkov_: Or was that another app I recall.. Jan 09 16:56:01 X-Chat probably :) Jan 09 16:56:03 it shouldn't be Jan 09 16:56:48 (after all my e-mail is in the Maintainer:) Jan 09 16:57:04 No there was this app that installed 60 icons in the menu orso. Jan 09 16:57:30 was it some compilation of small games? Jan 09 16:57:36 mikkov_: Yeah.. Jan 09 16:57:51 that I remember, but haven't seen it since OS2007 Jan 09 16:57:53 But it was a long time ago.. Jan 09 16:58:38 X-Fade, simon tatham's puzzles! :P :-) Jan 09 16:58:44 I'm still thinking of a good way to select pearls by the community.. Jan 09 16:58:51 Or was that in extras :/ Jan 09 16:59:09 anyway aisleriot is fully hildonized by upstream/gnomegames maintainers Jan 09 16:59:58 mikkov_: Yeah, it looks really nice. Jan 09 17:00:05 And indeed it is a good candidate. Jan 09 17:00:19 Anybody object? Jan 09 17:00:23 5 Jan 09 17:00:24 3 Jan 09 17:00:29 0 Jan 09 17:00:29 4 Jan 09 17:00:31 2 Jan 09 17:00:32 1 Jan 09 17:00:34 ;) Jan 09 17:00:55 Done.. Jan 09 17:01:13 any solitaire like things are a basic item for mobile/pda/tablet things :P Jan 09 17:01:30 X-Fade, btw, can autobuilder only build for an certain arch? I'm just curious after seeing some packages built for i386 Jan 09 17:01:32 X-Fade: well this method seems to work pretty fine ;) Jan 09 17:01:51 s/i386/i386 only/ Jan 09 17:01:51 qwerty12_ meant: X-Fade, btw, can autobuilder only build for an certain arch? I'm just curious after seeing some packages built for i386 only Jan 09 17:02:24 maybe I should update the screenshot for aisleriot.. Jan 09 17:02:33 qwerty12_: Yeah, you can select that. Jan 09 17:02:43 qwerty12_: Somewhere in the debian files. Jan 09 17:02:51 X-Fade, ah, I see. Thanks! Jan 09 17:02:53 mikkov_: Well, that might help ;) Jan 09 17:03:27 mikkov_: I'm not sure if this process is fair, but then again.. selection has been slow lately :) Jan 09 17:03:56 X-Fade, psst, do you take bribes? Jan 09 17:04:06 mikkov_: But yeah, a nice OS2008 with hildon status bar is better.. Jan 09 17:04:28 qwerty12_: Now you have spoilt it :) Never post that on a public channel :D Jan 09 17:04:50 X-Fade: need to play freecell a bit ;) Jan 09 17:04:54 X-Fade, Damn! I apologise deeply :D Jan 09 17:06:00 It would be nice if we could have a new pearl every week. Jan 09 17:07:00 autorotate the pearls list? Jan 09 17:07:24 mikkov_: I'm sure there are more application that are good candidates. Jan 09 17:07:52 rotate as a backup ;) Jan 09 17:08:55 leafpad is another app which is fully hildonized & works very well for what it is made for Jan 09 17:10:31 xournal :P Jan 09 17:11:29 if it is in pearls list it should be removed until there is installable version in diablo extras Jan 09 17:15:49 I think leafpad & xournal are both already pearls Jan 09 17:20:31 why not mention maemopad+? Jan 09 17:26:47 Every "normal" app shouldn't be a pearl. It should be reserved for ones which really stand out. Jan 09 17:27:03 And there's a set of criteria somewhere Jan 09 17:27:44 Forget criteria, it's all about the €€€ :) Jan 09 17:29:09 Jaffa: Probably this one? http://wiki.maemo.org/Task:Remarkable_community_projects Jan 09 17:30:01 X-Fade: that's it Jan 09 17:30:40 * RST38h suggests scrapping the Pearls category altogether and just judging from the number of downloads Jan 09 17:30:43 WebKit engine is definitely a Pearl) Jan 09 17:30:55 Otherwise you will be forever arguing about what a pearl is Jan 09 17:30:55 wazd: it will be - needs to get there first Jan 09 17:31:14 funny that the word "pearl" isn't mentioned on that page Jan 09 17:31:18 WebKit engine isn't listed on the catalogue Jan 09 17:31:25 not yet Jan 09 17:31:27 RST38h: Except for the past X months, there's been no argument about whether A or B are pearls - because there have been very few suggestions Jan 09 17:32:08 eCoach isn't listed there. So there's obviously not an exact overlap Jan 09 17:32:20 It needs time :) Jan 09 17:32:42 But you can solve this with an ITT voting Jan 09 17:33:00 Let people vote what gets to be a pearl Jan 09 17:33:13 I wonder if a webpage is the heaviest thing to scroll kinetically Jan 09 17:33:32 wazd: Depends on whether you need to render it Jan 09 17:33:45 wazd: A page full off videos ;) Jan 09 17:33:58 My guess is that it is rendered if not statically, then at least in rather big chunks Jan 09 17:33:58 And flashing flash :) Jan 09 17:34:42 RST38h: downloads.maemo.org already has a voting system, why overcomplicate things? And it's not like there's an overburden of pearls which need whittling down. Jan 09 17:35:05 So current hardware can handle kinetic scrolling in all applications theoretically Jan 09 17:35:19 wazd: Worked fine for mauku. Jan 09 17:35:37 wazd: the main reason it's not implemented is specification & development, I suspect. Jan 09 17:36:24 i.e. (and these are rhetorical questions) how do you handle multiple selection & drag to scroll? is it implemented at the GtkScrollView layer or a new widget? What scrollbars are shown? etc. Jan 09 17:36:24 Jaffa: Nobody uses that voting system Jan 09 17:36:48 Jaffa: So, a one time poll at itt would probably help Jan 09 17:37:03 wazd: Hildon Gtk is still very close to upstream, so it's not surprising it's taken to Fremantle to get it sorted. Jan 09 17:37:21 RST38h: That has already been done. When Quim asked for remarkable projects.. Jan 09 17:37:40 wazd: i think kinetic fremantle widgets are already there and doesn't use acceleration Jan 09 17:37:55 but then again 300mhz extra might do a difference Jan 09 17:38:26 Stslaptop: And a graphics bus that can handle it ;) Jan 09 17:38:27 RST38h: I think the word "nobody" is, again, a little too specific (and wrong). But if you want to draw attention to the fact that it's the community who select the pearls, and help rally people round discussing what makes a good pearl and getting more people involved in the selection (and, hopefully, encouraging app authors to go that extra mile), by all means - create a poll :-) Jan 09 17:38:31 X-Fade: mmm. Jan 09 17:38:50 then again, we have stuff like liqbase.. Jan 09 17:39:15 Sts: stuff like web page rendering is gated by memory bandwidth Jan 09 17:39:26 yeah, but i wasn't talking of web page rendering Jan 09 17:39:39 i meant in other apps :) Jan 09 17:39:40 Sts: if it is video then yes, by all means Jan 09 17:40:20 Sts: Java, emulators, web browsing, word processing are all mainly gated by memory performance though Jan 09 17:41:03 * Stslaptop wonders why typical open source bastions of news sites didn't pick up on OLPC firing half its staff Jan 09 17:41:50 or i managed to miss it totally, since i first read it on my local newspapers Jan 09 17:42:05 OLPC is mostly off the radars now Jan 09 17:42:42 They went off when they decided to switch to Windows. Open source community does not excuse such actions =) Jan 09 17:42:51 lcuk: now i have the answer for your 1000 solar powered omap boards. charity. Jan 09 17:43:14 or helping develop the "poor" countries Jan 09 17:44:40 helping to establish infrastructure :P Jan 09 17:44:41 too expensive Jan 09 17:44:50 does not run Office. Jan 09 17:44:57 RST38h: it was a question on "what would you do with 1000 solar powered omap boards" Jan 09 17:46:25 so, what would you do with 1000 solar powered omap boards, RST38h? Jan 09 17:48:16 Hi Jan 09 17:48:26 evening gnuton Jan 09 17:48:45 hei Stskeeps Jan 09 17:54:36 Sts: I would place them in a dot matrix formation in some desert and make them flash subliminal messages to airline pilots Jan 09 17:54:45 gnuton: so where do you work now? since you moved to helsinki of all places :) (just pondered since you said 'hei' :P) Jan 09 17:54:49 RST38h: heh heh Jan 09 17:55:16 Sts: 1000 dots is enough for a 28x5x7 display, the "KILL ALL PEOPLE" and "DONT LET THEM TAKE YOU ALIVE" messages will fit perfectly Jan 09 17:56:49 i always wondered why some of the asian countries take pride in those huge gatherings where they show certain logos etc.. Jan 09 17:56:49 Stskeeps: I work in Helsinki Jan 09 17:57:06 gnuton: yeah, i meant more specifically as what company :) Jan 09 17:57:13 Skype kinda out for Android but not really Jan 09 17:57:14 eh he :D Jan 09 17:57:26 RST38h: and you just explained that quite well (the asian countries) Jan 09 17:57:37 I guess Google did not let them use native API :) Jan 09 17:57:57 i mostly have my doubts on google because it's Yet Another API Jan 09 17:57:58 Sts: Don't European artsy types like the same? =) Jan 09 17:58:14 RST38h: soccer people and hippies.. maybe Jan 09 17:58:26 Yes, it is a TYPICAL yet another API :) Jan 09 17:59:13 It has got all the usual features: Java, rigid framework, a bunch of new abstractions for the old stuff everybody got used to Jan 09 18:00:19 then again i'm not sure what the alternative would be Jan 09 18:00:27 cos j2me is hell on earth Jan 09 18:00:31 Sts: S60, WinMobile Jan 09 18:00:41 Maemo :) Jan 09 18:00:43 yeah, but could you see google doing those? :P Jan 09 18:00:54 Google does these already Jan 09 18:01:12 Both Google Maps and Google Mail are available as native S60 apps Jan 09 18:01:12 as in, pushing a new mobile OS on someone else's work Jan 09 18:01:33 maemo, maybe, but there seem to have been this misunderstanding amongst people it is very hard to seperate the UI from maemo Jan 09 18:01:48 i'm still surprised at how much is actually public :P Jan 09 18:02:07 evening fauxmigh1 Jan 09 18:05:00 Hello everybody ! Jan 09 18:05:32 what do you think of that : http://lists.maemo.org/pipermail//maemo-developers/2009-January/053849.html ? Jan 09 18:05:34 Sts: Well, as far as Android is concerned, I would expect something with a clean native C++ Api Jan 09 18:05:59 Sts: Too bad that they let some busybody design it instead Jan 09 18:06:52 Khertan_n810_9: i thought it might be wrong forum to ask for it - discussing with the webkit guy @ iTT might do a lot better to the cause Jan 09 18:07:02 K3: Someone was asking about pronvit's WebKit-eal containing HTML5 & local storage features. It's currently got them compiled out. Jan 09 18:07:04 K3: Methinks it is not possible unless there is a lightweight environment for running such apps. Which, considering JS/CSS requirements, is kinda difficult to do Jan 09 18:07:24 Not to say that it can't be done though Jan 09 18:07:32 i m the guy wh ask on itt :) Jan 09 18:07:38 Omg, that Android tablet is without BT Jan 09 18:08:07 epic fail Jan 09 18:08:28 RST38h > the device i target is Palm WebOS, iPhone and Maemo Jan 09 18:08:31 Khertan_n810_9: course you were; apologies Jan 09 18:08:54 so for maemo this seems to be near Jan 09 18:09:00 Khertan: WebOS remains to be seen (but they claim it works for them) Jan 09 18:09:03 but the other one use webkit Jan 09 18:09:31 Khertan: iPhone does not provide it at the moment and given that they do not let you run resident stuff, it may not be possible Jan 09 18:09:36 RST38h yep it use webkit with html5 openDatabse api Jan 09 18:09:45 Khertan: Maemo - should be possible but not sure if you can make it perform well Jan 09 18:10:19 RST38h: are you sure ? the feature is enabled ? Jan 09 18:10:31 i will try with the iphone of someone Jan 09 18:10:54 RST38h yep performances could be a problem Jan 09 18:11:26 Khertan: I am not sure about iPhone at all. It just seems to violate Apple's terms Jan 09 18:11:40 jaffa: you re welcome, this was the nick which nconfuse you :) Jan 09 18:12:16 rst38h: it doesn't need to be resident Jan 09 18:12:48 ping ? Jan 09 18:13:20 Khertan: but doesn't it need some backend that stays in memory so that your js apps can connect to it? Jan 09 18:13:44 Like Google gears? Jan 09 18:14:07 rst38h: storing the js and html locally fix the resident problem Jan 09 18:14:19 heh, researchers found out that the vikings made pirate copies of iran-made swords Jan 09 18:14:28 i always wondered where thepiratebay mentality came from.. Jan 09 18:15:25 i ve made some test on my pc with an embedded webkit wigdet in a gtk windows and open a local html file and it s work Jan 09 18:16:32 pygtk is already slow on my nit so i m afraid that it will be worse Jan 09 18:16:58 My beagle board just got shipped :) Jan 09 18:17:14 And I just bought a HDTV :) Jan 09 18:17:23 anyone know what the trick is to building kernel modules for 770 with 2007he? Jan 09 18:17:29 Sts: I wonder if Ahmadi-not-a-jew can sue them in the European court over this =) Jan 09 18:17:36 * Khertan_n810_9 think he should create a report in bugtracker about the sd card temp problem Jan 09 18:18:19 ThatOneGuy: scratchbox Jan 09 18:18:27 Khertan_n810_9: what does the packing for your SD card say? :P Jan 09 18:18:31 Khertan: So, every js app gets a local file where it stores its state? Jan 09 18:18:33 and was it the internal or the external dying? Jan 09 18:18:34 well yes, I know that lol Jan 09 18:19:09 I thought I had it right, but insmod saysInvalid format Jan 09 18:19:26 RST38h: html5 provide an openDatabase method which enable you to create a local sqlite database Jan 09 18:20:20 with javascript and a browser engine which support it you could make apps Jan 09 18:20:32 which doesn t need to connect to a server Jan 09 18:20:38 :) Jan 09 18:21:17 html5 is more applications than document language Jan 09 18:22:24 someone know how to change the user agent of webkit on maemo ? Jan 09 18:22:45 Khertan: implement a mail client, a calendar, and an address book for maemo using that Jan 09 18:22:58 Khertan: + an rss reader =) Jan 09 18:22:59 hi, I just saw in some news that Nokia stopped producing the N810. Is that true or did it just stop producing the WiMax edition? Jan 09 18:23:44 Xamusk: they are pulling back from stores the N810WE, not N810, as far as i know Jan 09 18:23:46 RST38h this is exactly what i think :) Jan 09 18:24:20 They stopped producing WiMax ed Jan 09 18:24:20 Khertan: using Qt? Jan 09 18:24:30 As to the original N810, we do not know Jan 09 18:24:38 Khertan: if so, I'd say override QString QWebPage::userAgentForUrl ( const QUrl & url ) const [virtual protected] Jan 09 18:24:53 Stskeeps, ok, I just thought the newspost fishy, since it starts by saying of the WiMax and then says that nokia is cancelling the N810 production, but then says it's a cellphone Jan 09 18:25:26 the poster apparently does not know what he is talking about Jan 09 18:25:28 Which is the best place to put a bug related to n810 hardware ? in bugzilla ? Jan 09 18:25:29 Xamusk: then again if there's more than enough produced, it'd make sense to halt production until there's more demand :) Jan 09 18:25:58 egs: ? where too ? Jan 09 18:26:16 I hope it releases the N900 soon to catch some of the emerging MID market Jan 09 18:26:38 nokia's honestly way ahead of those.. i mean, with that battery life Jan 09 18:26:41 soon like 7 or 8 months ... Jan 09 18:26:45 MIDs are too big for all uses, but are more practical than a full laptop Jan 09 18:26:46 established designs, etc Jan 09 18:27:01 Khertan: are you writing an app yourself? Jan 09 18:27:04 i cant ever see myself holding up a 9" laptop to use as a camera Jan 09 18:27:08 Not all MIDs are equal... Jan 09 18:27:14 There are smallish ones Jan 09 18:27:38 hiya Khertan :) Jan 09 18:27:54 egs: nope :) ... hum not an app that include webkit ... at this time just try to use it as default rowser Jan 09 18:28:02 and create a js apps :) Jan 09 18:28:09 Hi lcuk Jan 09 18:28:24 webkit browser looks sweet doesnt it :) Jan 09 18:29:13 not for me i got blank page as my phone isp block http request that doesn t have an autorized user agent Jan 09 18:29:14 :) Jan 09 18:29:32 but i like it in professional product :) Jan 09 18:29:37 Khertan: oh I see... no clue then :) Jan 09 18:30:17 Khertan_n810, but that blank page renders faster than anything and scrolls well ;) Jan 09 18:30:19 that webkitbrowser for Qt? is that allready in the repo? (stable or dev) Jan 09 18:30:27 no Jan 09 18:30:35 Hum ... i don t see anything related to hardware in bugzilla ... Jan 09 18:30:36 s/for Qt/for maemo/ Jan 09 18:30:36 well, thats not the one hes talking about Jan 09 18:30:37 EgS meant: that webkitbrowser for maemo? is that allready in the repo? (stable or dev) Jan 09 18:30:43 qt ... pfff Jan 09 18:31:15 not in repository but in its garage page Jan 09 18:31:34 cool, always wanted to test a webkit based browser on the n810 Jan 09 18:32:03 where i can complain to nokia about hardware bug ? Jan 09 18:32:25 whats up with it? Jan 09 18:33:50 lcuk: http://khertan.net/ first post Jan 09 18:34:32 is that a problem of NIT or of your card? Jan 09 18:34:43 Khertan_n810_9: there should be a temperature range somewhere in the manual probably Jan 09 18:35:08 seems to be nit ... as the card work in an other device Jan 09 18:35:12 i would personally complain to GOD, -18 is outside MY operating temperature Jan 09 18:35:20 when it warmed up? Jan 09 18:35:59 i work in my car audio system at -20 Jan 09 18:36:10 s\i\it Jan 09 18:37:18 was the filesystem corrupted or just the file? Jan 09 18:37:18 Khertan_n810_9: and some SD cards cannot take that low operating temperatures it seems Jan 09 18:37:38 cos i wouldv thought if it was bad filesystem it wouldnt magically fix itself Jan 09 18:38:04 * Stskeeps takes time to actually read the tablet manual.. Jan 09 18:42:53 ping ? Jan 09 18:43:07 pong Jan 09 18:43:18 thx Jan 09 18:43:19 :) Jan 09 18:43:42 qwerty12_N800: so how did it go with the kernel? Jan 09 18:43:43 yep but warning user that temp is too low could be a good thing Jan 09 18:44:20 i wouldv thought the user would know its too cold, when your testes rise back into your body you should take that as your warning Jan 09 18:44:38 instead of let s user crashed is precious unsaved source file Jan 09 18:44:38 s/is/his Jan 09 18:45:09 Khertan_n810_9: are you talking of internal SD card, or an external one? Jan 09 18:45:09 Khertan, overriding a daily backup without warning is just as bad Jan 09 18:45:20 when there is no wind ... i don t see difference between -5 and -20 Jan 09 18:45:28 external one Jan 09 18:45:37 ok, so it's the external cards fault probably Jan 09 18:45:42 lcuk: yep Jan 09 18:45:49 and those don't have temperature measure inside them :P Jan 09 18:45:55 (i believe) Jan 09 18:46:01 i still dont see how yow it was only the file itself that was corrupt and not the filesystem Jan 09 18:46:03 stskeeps nope the card work in other device at lower temp Jan 09 18:46:46 did you modify the file when you were out and about, or did it just randomly corrupt itself whilst walking without touching it or modifying it Jan 09 18:46:52 is there an eclipse for maemo? Jan 09 18:47:00 ie, can you be sure it was temp that corrupted it Jan 09 18:47:04 8) Jan 09 18:47:10 sisto: you mean for developing for maemo, or on the tablet Jan 09 18:47:22 on the tablet 8) Jan 09 18:47:28 not sure you'd want to :P Jan 09 18:47:32 sisto, if you hold up the nokia to the sun im sure it will cause an eclipse Jan 09 18:47:46 lcuk: lol Jan 09 18:47:50 sisto, not really though, eclipse is java isnt it? Jan 09 18:47:57 yup Jan 09 18:48:01 then no Jan 09 18:48:10 there's no jre for arm? Jan 09 18:48:15 or jdk Jan 09 18:48:15 java support isnt that great and anyway, its a mammoth program Jan 09 18:48:23 true Jan 09 18:48:26 true Jan 09 18:48:36 sisto: you can get pretty far with vim though .. :> Jan 09 18:48:36 why ojn earth would you want such a monster in there anyway? Jan 09 18:49:14 i could program java with vim... but is there a jdk for maemo for compiling? Jan 09 18:49:20 sisto, and dont think im just dismissing you - i do *all* dev directly on tablet using gcc, khertan does dev on tablet with a highlighting multi language mini ide Jan 09 18:49:56 * lcuk needs liqed working - now i have multi colored fonts maybe i can... Jan 09 18:49:57 mmm Jan 09 18:50:03 i don't really need it... i'm just checking whether it can be done 8) Jan 09 18:50:12 sisto: i'd look at python and C instead though Jan 09 18:50:30 and jdk doesnt matter if its on-tablet or through ssh on a linux place other places :) Jan 09 18:50:37 of course it can be done, you can install dosbox, load up win 95, install vmware load an image of linux and then run eclipse iwthin that Jan 09 18:51:03 but its not gonna be much of a decent workflow Jan 09 18:51:17 sounds fun 8) Jan 09 18:51:30 challenging Jan 09 18:51:31 sisto: maybe it's better if you explain what you'd like to do specifically? Jan 09 18:51:48 i don't really need it... i'm just checking whether it can be done Jan 09 18:51:53 :P Jan 09 18:51:59 just for the fun of it Jan 09 18:52:08 anything is possible, just more or less slowly Jan 09 18:52:08 :P Jan 09 18:52:10 Stskeeps, is there a jvm for mer? Jan 09 18:52:19 lcuk: i actually think so Jan 09 18:52:25 :) good Jan 09 18:52:26 se Jan 09 18:52:27 c Jan 09 18:52:49 nice Jan 09 18:52:50 lcuk: https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/jaunty/armel/cacao-oj6-jdk Jan 09 18:53:00 heh Jan 09 18:53:06 obviously doesnt matter to me :P Jan 09 18:53:54 i know one thing would be usefull for me that runs on java Jan 09 18:54:08 i have a swing app Jan 09 18:54:23 which i would like to run on the tablet if possible Jan 09 18:54:41 there's no promise it will run smoothly Jan 09 18:54:46 it is a 400mhz box afterall Jan 09 18:54:51 without a good JIT, i thin Jan 09 18:54:52 k Jan 09 18:55:57 cacao is a jvm? Jan 09 18:56:18 yeah Jan 09 18:56:59 the app won't run though Jan 09 18:57:05 it uses native libraries Jan 09 18:57:17 well then it won't run then :P Jan 09 18:57:27 :( Jan 09 18:57:37 what native libraries? Jan 09 18:57:45 let me check Jan 09 18:58:07 this is the app http://passwordsafe.sourceforge.net/ Jan 09 18:58:25 let me check what are the libraries Jan 09 18:58:38 you can really get similar of those applications easily on tablet.. Jan 09 18:58:48 or fairly easy to make Jan 09 18:58:55 sisto, yeah, that needs windows xp on the tablet Jan 09 18:59:05 gonna be tough Jan 09 18:59:11 there's a java version Jan 09 18:59:12 and isn't it kinda against the java philosophy to demand native libraries? :P Jan 09 18:59:34 i demand native java Jan 09 18:59:35 sure Jan 09 18:59:41 with sugar and milk Jan 09 18:59:47 mm Jan 09 18:59:48 coffee Jan 09 18:59:49 good idea Jan 09 18:59:49 brb Jan 09 19:00:08 Sts: happens all the time Jan 09 19:00:30 yeah, i know Jan 09 19:00:47 i have been coding java applications at some point too :P Jan 09 19:00:49 not a fan Jan 09 19:01:43 X-Fade, pong? Jan 09 19:02:52 here are the libraries that come with it: commons-logging.jar libcairo-swt.so libswt-atk-gtk-3232.so libswt-awt-gtk-3232.so libswt-cairo-gtk-3232.solibswt-glx-gtk-3232.so libswt-gnome-gtk-3232.so libswt-gtk-3232.so libswt-mozilla-gcc3-gtk-3232.so libswt-mozilla-gtk-3232.so libswt-pi-gtk-3232.so Jan 09 19:03:10 the .so extension makes it sound like a native library to me Jan 09 19:03:12 sisto: ah, just swt Jan 09 19:03:31 sisto: honestly, i have no clue if it would run, but, for a password safe, i'm sure there's alternatives. Jan 09 19:03:55 for sure... i'll probably end up migrating to an alternative :) Jan 09 19:04:56 i haven't purchased my n810 yet though, i'm just investigating ahead of time Jan 09 19:05:20 besides the fact it's "not x86", it is a very versatile device. Jan 09 19:05:31 can run quite a lot of different things, maemo, ubuntu, etc Jan 09 19:06:08 is there a benefit in changing to debian / ubuntu / android etc? Jan 09 19:06:32 depends for what you want to use it for Jan 09 19:06:50 some things are easier in ubuntu, and some things are more power saving in maemo, etc Jan 09 19:06:53 there's always pros and cons Jan 09 19:07:00 and you can switch between the OS'es, multiboot Jan 09 19:07:40 my main uses will probably be pda stuff, game device, spreadsheet, text editor/notes Jan 09 19:07:55 i probably can do it all on maemo Jan 09 19:08:25 PIM is 'interesting' but that's that :P Jan 09 19:08:37 are the other OSs compatible with touch input and the keyboard? Jan 09 19:09:02 yeah, mostly, i think :P Jan 09 19:09:09 * Stskeeps only has a n800 and he can use them.. :P Jan 09 19:09:19 i guess they must have been made specially for the device Jan 09 19:09:28 not really Jan 09 19:09:38 yeah, linux was designed with the n8x0 series in mind Jan 09 19:09:50 linus was such a visionary Jan 09 19:09:55 lcuk: sure that's exactly what i meant lol Jan 09 19:10:06 it's typically the distro for the processor with minimal tablet changes Jan 09 19:11:10 sisto, as long as there are valid drivers for the hardware its usable, since the touch interface is pretty generic thats a fairly easy one, whether or not the OS you choose uses that input as well as maemo is another matter Jan 09 19:11:54 Khertan, I'm sorry it sucks so much where you're using your tablet. :P Jan 09 19:11:55 but does ubuntu use the full desktop on the n810? cause that uses 1 gb of ram on my desktop pc Jan 09 19:12:15 sisto: hehe, which is why some of us work on Mer :) Jan 09 19:12:21 which is ubuntu with the maemo platform on top Jan 09 19:12:38 Mer = maemo? Jan 09 19:12:45 ooooooooooh Jan 09 19:12:45 ok Jan 09 19:12:45 ~mer Jan 09 19:12:46 rumour has it, mer is http://wiki.maemo.org/Mer_Blueprint_New and http://wiki.maemo.org/Mer_Blueprint Jan 09 19:13:07 sisto, maemo has been specifically written to date for the nokia tablets, mer is a rebuild of ubuntu (by stskeeps and co..) which is sane and logical and having its pieces carefully considered Jan 09 19:13:20 carefully? :P Jan 09 19:13:25 * Stskeeps pokes his shot class for another refill Jan 09 19:13:28 glass Jan 09 19:13:34 very carefully :) Jan 09 19:13:47 * lcuk raises shot glass Jan 09 19:14:04 damn you werent toasting Jan 09 19:14:15 * lcuk fills up ur glass Jan 09 19:14:21 get khertan to get you some ice Jan 09 19:14:22 bang Jan 09 19:14:39 has anyone tried pairing their n8x0 device with a 3g phone to use dialup internet? Jan 09 19:14:48 yeah lots do Jan 09 19:14:57 sisto: yeah it's really common Jan 09 19:15:00 no i meant here in the chat room Jan 09 19:15:05 yeah, lots do Jan 09 19:15:07 sisto: i do that daily Jan 09 19:15:17 the OS has built in support for tethering Jan 09 19:15:19 and does it quite well Jan 09 19:15:30 usually just select your carrier, pair your phone, and you're set Jan 09 19:15:36 Stskeeps: but doesn't it eat your battery like a bitch? Jan 09 19:15:46 not too bad, faster then normal sure Jan 09 19:15:49 sisto, on the phone Jan 09 19:15:49 sisto, bluetooth is light on the battery Jan 09 19:15:55 Not really much more than WiFi on the tablet. Jan 09 19:15:56 ok :) Jan 09 19:16:07 lighter than wifi i think Jan 09 19:16:09 sounds very usefull Jan 09 19:16:20 GeneralAntilles, bluetooth is heavier than wifi? Jan 09 19:16:43 lcuk, in-use I get worse battery life tethering to Bluetooth than with WiFi Jan 09 19:17:09 That's not to say that it wouldn't be a factor of my phone or use-case. Jan 09 19:17:15 GeneralAntilles, the council mail is already setup ? Jan 09 19:17:21 most people leave bluetooth on all the time on their phones and it doesn't eat too much battery Jan 09 19:17:23 VDVsx, yes. Jan 09 19:17:24 yeah GeneralAntilles Jan 09 19:17:37 sisto, leaving it on and actively using it are 2 different things Jan 09 19:17:44 GeneralAntilles, is council@maemo.org ? Jan 09 19:17:51 VDVsx, yes. Jan 09 19:17:56 GeneralAntilles, thanks Jan 09 19:18:00 i can idle my car for about a fortnight, but if i drive down the motorway it lasts a few hours Jan 09 19:18:13 is that council mailing list public? Jan 09 19:18:42 lcuk, it forwards to the Council member's addresses, so, no. Jan 09 19:20:39 hello everybody. i have a short question: does anybody know how to change the window manager of deblet? currently i'm running xfce but would like to try lxde, but can't find the proper startup script... :/ Jan 09 19:21:32 * GeneralAntilles hadn't realized WebOS was Linux-based. Jan 09 19:21:43 Could they have thought up a worse name? Jan 09 19:22:45 mrweasel: is gdm installed? Jan 09 19:23:10 yes. Jan 09 19:23:17 NOS for example Jan 09 19:23:19 no, don't think so Jan 09 19:23:23 or POS Jan 09 19:23:38 on startup it switches directly from the console to xfce Jan 09 19:23:50 or even XOS, based on the apparent heritage Jan 09 19:24:58 mrweasel: grep xfce ~/.* Jan 09 19:26:29 CarrotOS Jan 09 19:26:41 hmm, is bc4fw.bin a 770 only thing? Jan 09 19:27:21 RST38h: nothing but entries from .xsession-errors Jan 09 19:28:25 all righty. do the same in /etc Jan 09 19:29:01 also nothing, should i do recursive ? Jan 09 19:29:49 of course Jan 09 19:30:01 mrweasel: it kinda wonders me you have XFCE, because i haven't had that version for quite a while.. Jan 09 19:30:07 it should be in .xinitrc or .startxrc Jan 09 19:30:12 sure it's deblet and not beta3? Jan 09 19:30:21 even with gdm, I guess... Jan 09 19:31:04 its not in .xinitrc because i searched all of that files... Jan 09 19:31:19 * RST38h is once again amazed how helpless most Linux forums are =( Jan 09 19:31:33 mrweasel: what is in your .xinitrc? Could you paste it to pastebin? Jan 09 19:32:18 Stskeeps: I think so, I also had beta3 before Jan 09 19:33:05 installed it from http://trac.tspre.org/projects/deblet Jan 09 19:33:05 but that has been in october or so Jan 09 19:33:16 yeah, long ago :P Jan 09 19:34:43 I've read all the forum threads.. found something like /usr/bin/xpice but that does not exist, and there is only a startup script that runs startx Jan 09 19:35:10 mrweasel: there is also .xsession to check Jan 09 19:35:12 but the only entry in xinitrc in /etc/X11/xinitrc is ./etc/X11/Xsession Jan 09 19:35:31 Aha, so it basicalle default to Xsession Jan 09 19:35:36 What is in Xsession? Jan 09 19:35:41 defaults Jan 09 19:37:45 yes seems to be defaults.. does some things then initializes some variables with paths and files.. but i've also checked all of these Jan 09 19:38:10 no xfce entry there Jan 09 19:38:31 Anything else in /etc/X11 or /etc/gdm ? Jan 09 19:40:38 /etc/gdm does not exist, and in /etc/X11 there are some additional folders ./xinit ./Xresources ./Xsession.d ./xkb ./fonts ./app-defaults Jan 09 19:41:07 but i've looked there already... no luck Jan 09 19:41:31 Stskeeps: what changed since october ? Jan 09 19:42:41 is it using lxde by default now ? Jan 09 19:42:48 yeah Jan 09 19:42:56 but i'm not even sure it bootstraps :P Jan 09 19:43:01 and gdm too ? Jan 09 19:43:34 think so Jan 09 19:43:41 we're working on Mer these days so :P Jan 09 19:43:43 GAN800: ping? Jan 09 19:44:35 i found lxde for my desktop pc last week and was quite amazed, so i thought i could simply try it on the tablet.. not that easy as i've thought Jan 09 19:44:58 it bugs me that i can't even find the script that chooses xfce to be the wm Jan 09 19:45:11 rc.local or update-alternatives, possibly Jan 09 19:45:32 it's not rc.local, but whats update-alternatives? Jan 09 19:45:32 mrweasel: there's also an ubuntu guide on iTT Jan 09 19:45:35 pong Jan 09 19:45:36 lxde should be easy based on that Jan 09 19:45:45 GAN800: http://wiki.maemo.org/Task:Community_firmware_image_distribution (First request) Jan 09 19:46:02 i've seen that, but i don't consider ubuntu a good idea on the tablet.. =) Jan 09 19:46:16 mrweasel: just as easy and good as debian, really Jan 09 19:46:23 yes easy Jan 09 19:46:30 but fast? Jan 09 19:46:36 yeah Jan 09 19:46:46 its even more optimized for these, so Jan 09 19:47:10 this ubuntu thing is quite new, isn't it ? Jan 09 19:47:19 yeah, but based on the Mer experiences, so Jan 09 19:48:24 i've read a lot of that tablet stuff since i got it in october.. it's amazing that these people i always read about really "exist" here on irc Jan 09 19:48:32 =) Jan 09 19:50:20 Stskeeps: so you don't have any clue where to find that xfce startup thing ? Jan 09 19:50:37 mrweasel: can you grep for a 'startx' in /etc/init.d/* ? Jan 09 19:51:09 i remember that there is a ./x-session that does it Jan 09 19:51:47 yeah, ok, so, apt-get away xfce (purge the packages) and apt-get install lxde Jan 09 19:51:52 i believe Jan 09 19:52:00 "su - -c "startx -- $XSERVERARGS" $USERNAME & Jan 09 19:52:09 but how does startx know which wm to choose ? Jan 09 19:52:15 /etc/alternatives i think Jan 09 19:52:40 GAN800: and it's generally just if you think that's a fair start to propose to tread the waters Jan 09 19:52:50 as we will not get around this in any kind of community edition Jan 09 19:52:53 Stskeeps: yeah! that's it ! great thank you! Jan 09 19:54:39 another thing: when i do "apt-get install lxde" it also pulls xserver-xephyr.. i guess i don't need that? Jan 09 19:54:59 there's a lxde-core or something.. Jan 09 19:57:01 okay, got it.. i'll give it a try, hope it works... Jan 09 20:13:15 * Stskeeps yawns Jan 09 20:18:11 \o/ yesss i fixed a long standing bug Jan 09 20:19:13 You gave it a chair? Jan 09 20:19:51 sortof Jan 09 20:20:10 its just tiny minor thing but its important it works :) Jan 09 20:20:40 which bug? Jan 09 20:20:47 link? Jan 09 20:21:28 its just in my app :) release will be "soon" Jan 09 20:21:52 what does it do? Jan 09 20:22:38 i mean... it's fine if it doesn't do anything Jan 09 20:22:41 lots of pretty stuff :) and its a memory aid Jan 09 20:22:45 no one said it has to Jan 09 20:22:48 and a book reader Jan 09 20:22:56 :) Jan 09 20:23:03 http://maemo.org/downloads/product/OS2008/liqbase/ http://liqbase.net/ Jan 09 20:23:41 and i hope it will be also a calendar soon? i'm running without a calendar since new year... =) Jan 09 20:23:47 ;) Jan 09 20:23:58 mrweasel, :) Jan 09 20:24:01 it does all sorts of things :) Jan 09 20:24:32 but im not a calendar man, i might be able to make a UI for one which "works" but whoever could I find that knows how calendar api works? Jan 09 20:25:27 yes sisto, i have an idea for how a UI should work, it seems to sit nicely on the tablets Jan 09 20:26:21 i'm good with dates above the notes in graffiti view or something like that.. could also write a date on 30 new sketches for the next month .. hmm =) Jan 09 20:26:54 oh wait.. next month is feburary.. then 28 will be fine :) Jan 09 20:27:13 february 30th lol Jan 09 20:27:25 ops Jan 09 20:27:27 mrweasel, dont worry about that (cal usually has 35 boxes..) there will be a decent example included for someone to have a go at building from Jan 09 20:27:53 great! Jan 09 20:28:12 i like the way tablet applications get developed Jan 09 20:28:15 i have started to use google calendar Jan 09 20:28:22 for my reminders Jan 09 20:28:31 i like the fact that it emails me Jan 09 20:28:44 khertan is writing a nice calendar app, he keeps moaning about lack of ui Jan 09 20:28:52 because i can leave the unread message in my inbox until i can attend to it Jan 09 20:29:31 i guess that is my gripe with device calendars... once u close it it's gone Jan 09 20:29:44 you can make the notification stick around Jan 09 20:29:51 *you can't Jan 09 20:30:08 why not? Jan 09 20:30:37 because i have an imate jam and that's how it works... i haven't tried other devices Jan 09 20:30:38 if it was a desktop applet or had a notification icon its available all the time Jan 09 20:30:56 but once i click on it it's gone Jan 09 20:31:20 so if you accidentally click on something it vanishes forever? Jan 09 20:31:31 this is how it goes Jan 09 20:31:35 i set up the appointment Jan 09 20:31:42 the date comes and a notification pops up Jan 09 20:31:45 i click on it Jan 09 20:31:48 the notification is gone Jan 09 20:31:55 but the appointment stays on the calendar Jan 09 20:32:01 but donesn't notify me again Jan 09 20:32:11 meh Jan 09 20:32:12 i would like the notification to stay on the tray area Jan 09 20:32:20 technically its done its job Jan 09 20:32:27 yeah Jan 09 20:32:29 if everything i accidentially click on would vanish forever... omg ;) Jan 09 20:32:32 i thought you meant the cal entry had gone Jan 09 20:32:32 but that's why i use google calendar Jan 09 20:32:50 because it sends me an email Jan 09 20:32:58 and the email stays on the inbox till i erase it Jan 09 20:33:11 lol mrweasel you would be a eunuch soon then Jan 09 20:33:11 i can read it again and i will see it every time i read my email Jan 09 20:33:28 but you wont know if you missed the event Jan 09 20:33:37 i guess i have different needs :) Jan 09 20:34:08 lol Jan 09 20:36:18 In my opinion the notification should have two buttons... A dismiss button would close the notification. An ok button will make it stick around. I can always click on dismiss later if I'm done with it. Jan 09 20:36:27 omg , my n810 is making noises at me Jan 09 20:36:39 :O Jan 09 20:36:41 or accidentally Jan 09 20:36:54 did you "accidentally" start that tricorder app ? Jan 09 20:37:33 heh no, i am just playing with esound library (same thing boxar (from jagernot) uses) Jan 09 20:37:51 but if it happens accidentally i would know cause i'm right there... i just don't want to accidentally forget about the notification Jan 09 20:37:58 GeneralAntilles: so, any comments or can i put another post out in the thread on community firmware images, pointing to it, so quim&co can start brewing on it? Jan 09 20:38:06 the problem is I usually just close the notification and immediately forget about it Jan 09 20:38:18 that's how bad my memory is Jan 09 20:38:33 Stskeeps, looks good to me. Jan 09 20:38:37 GeneralAntilles: thanks :) Jan 09 20:38:38 Though it should be "an initfs" Jan 09 20:38:55 yeah, one of those things my english teacher never taught me correctly.. :P Jan 09 20:39:02 sisto, my short term memory is aweful :) liqbase has given it back to me Jan 09 20:39:50 that makes me remember what happened to me just yesterday Jan 09 20:40:02 i lost my sunglasses because of my short term memory Jan 09 20:40:16 i layed them down on the bus seat Jan 09 20:40:24 and when I left I completely forgot about them Jan 09 20:40:42 might not be best idea to get expensive handheld technology Jan 09 20:40:49 haha Jan 09 20:40:53 or get a lanyard Jan 09 20:41:00 good idea Jan 09 20:41:37 would be nice to have a pair of apps on both phone and tablet and when either loses bluetooth with the other it cries like a baby Jan 09 20:41:58 genious Jan 09 20:42:25 ever sat in front of a gdm login screen, not being able to login because you can't type all the characters contained in your password? :/ Jan 09 20:42:26 not really, i'd end up taking the tablet but i'll leave the kids on the bus Jan 09 20:42:52 damn we have to send nokia an overdue notice :\ Jan 09 20:43:06 not very cool, but we need the money desperately Jan 09 20:43:30 housetier, Nokia seems to be pretty bad at paying in a reasonable amount of time. :/ Jan 09 20:43:33 :( housetier Jan 09 20:43:57 we know that now as well ;\ Jan 09 20:44:26 i gather you have been in contact with the contacts who arranged the summit Jan 09 20:44:51 yes, I kept reminding as I was being reminded by our cash master Jan 09 20:45:21 what's all this money talk Jan 09 20:45:23 ? Jan 09 20:45:39 sisto, c-base hosted the maemo-summit last year Jan 09 20:45:58 and nokia pays for it? Jan 09 20:46:12 it was a great event, really really good. but so far nokia has only paid an advance of 30% Jan 09 20:46:35 and since c-base is notoriously short on funds this really hurts us Jan 09 20:46:57 nontheless I hope we can host the next summit as well :) Jan 09 20:47:06 it just went so well Jan 09 20:48:32 Stskeeps: lxde now works like a charm, thanks again Jan 09 20:48:38 mrweasel: always Jan 09 20:48:49 mrweasel: but beware i'm not continuing to work on deblet Jan 09 20:49:05 which means you should probably mirror the repository for yourself for future reference in case i loose it at some point :P Jan 09 20:49:36 isn't everything i need by now coming directly from the debian repros ? Jan 09 20:49:55 lunch looks good https://wiki.maemo.org/images/7/7d/MaemoSummit_catering.jpg Jan 09 20:50:29 if i accidentally trash that system i'm surely moving to some more recent.. but i like that debian ... if only to impress my friends =) Jan 09 20:50:58 and i'm using it as the system for that chroot thing instead of easy debian also.... Jan 09 20:51:16 mrweasel: depends if you have old or new installer, hmm.. Jan 09 20:51:28 can you check if you have packages.tspre.org in your sources list? Jan 09 20:51:36 ne Jan 09 20:51:38 no Jan 09 20:51:41 ah, old version Jan 09 20:51:52 where the packages are in your actual setup Jan 09 20:52:16 and no, not all of it is from debian repos, if so, it would have been debian, not deblet ;) Jan 09 20:52:41 yes of course, but everything i sould eventually need to install now Jan 09 20:55:21 so as long as i'm not reinstalling everything will be fine Jan 09 20:59:13 Anyone know where to find hildon-libs0? Jan 09 20:59:33 not entirely sure, but isn't that just libhildon? Jan 09 21:00:06 qwerty12_N800, get provint to push to Extras-devel. Jan 09 21:00:31 qwerty12_N800: https://wiki.maemo.org/Task:Community_firmware_image_distribution <- am i missing anything in this list? Jan 09 21:01:21 GeneralAntilles, I'm sure he doesn't need me to convince him... Jan 09 21:01:21 pan needs hildon-libs0 Jan 09 21:01:37 sure you didn't get one for gregale or something, giridhari ? Jan 09 21:01:45 qwerty12_N800, well, make sure he uses Maemo-Display-Name and a purty icon. :P Jan 09 21:01:57 *grin* Jan 09 21:03:52 no pan is for chinook, I run diablo, maemo-hackers had hildon-libs0 in mistral I read but now it is missing Jan 09 21:04:18 Stskeeps, I assume you're using 2.6.21 so why do you want stlc45xx-cal? Jan 09 21:10:06 qwerty12_N800: for the purpose we don't want to use 2.6.21 anymore we might as well ask early Jan 09 21:10:25 if they allow us to distribute wlan-cal, it'd be idiotic not to be able to distribute stlc45xx-cal too .. Jan 09 21:12:52 right, post sent off Jan 09 21:13:00 let's see what happens :) Jan 09 21:13:10 Hehe, iPhone wannabe: http://www.blogcdn.com/www.engadgetmobile.com/media/2009/01/palm_box000ed.jpg Jan 09 21:19:15 ~curse Freescale for lying about its chip stability Jan 09 21:19:16 May the fleas of a thousand camels infest your most sensitive regions, Freescale for lying about its chip stability ! Jan 09 21:19:54 infobot's curses suck Jan 09 21:20:43 I wonder if we can teach it our own... Jan 09 21:21:02 infobot: ~curse? Jan 09 21:21:35 ~help curse Jan 09 21:21:48 infobot: what is ~curse? Jan 09 21:21:50 Stskeeps: what are you talking about? Jan 09 21:21:54 meh Jan 09 21:22:01 infobot, help curse Jan 09 21:22:03 The camels curse has been borrowed from Angband. Jan 09 21:22:23 infobot, speak mother fucker Jan 09 21:23:10 that palm looks nice Jan 09 21:23:40 RST38h Jan 09 21:24:15 * sisto is done at work... leaving now Jan 09 21:24:18 bye Jan 09 21:24:23 * Stskeeps ponders if http://cache.gizmodo.com/assets/resources/2007/10/nokia-ad-open.jpg can be converted into a wallpaper or something like that. Jan 09 21:24:43 Bus error. Segmentation fault. Segmentation fault. Kernel panic. Jan 09 21:25:11 RST38h: "keel over and die"? :P Jan 09 21:25:15 I think it wants to tell me something. Jan 09 21:25:19 hehe Jan 09 21:25:55 Stskeeps, looking at symbian signed I find that poster full of hypocrisy... Jan 09 21:26:09 qwerty12_N800: yeah, of course Jan 09 21:26:13 RST38h: "don't youch me you evil competitor!" :P Jan 09 21:26:28 qwerty12_N800: but for tablets it makes sense Jan 09 21:26:29 * b-man is now installing ubuntu on his win98 computer... Jan 09 21:26:37 suihkulokki: I am not its competitor, I am its master Jan 09 21:26:51 And nothing tells it so as raising its core voltage... Jan 09 21:27:17 b-man: hehe, what CPU? Jan 09 21:27:31 intel pentium 3 Jan 09 21:27:43 mm, could probably have ran xp though :) Jan 09 21:27:49 with 128mb of ram :P Jan 09 21:27:55 yeah, ok. Jan 09 21:28:21 b-man: can it boot from usb? Jan 09 21:28:24 * qwerty12_N800 ran xp on a p3 with 128mb ram Jan 09 21:28:38 i'm using a live cd i burned Jan 09 21:29:04 k Jan 09 21:29:11 installer is sllllow.... :p Jan 09 21:30:28 i just hope ubuntu-desktop is not too horibly slow, perhaps i shuld use swap :) Jan 09 21:31:20 there's always xubuntu Jan 09 21:31:31 yah ;) Jan 09 21:31:33 if you have a casio watch you could try to rig up something to use the ram in there Jan 09 21:31:35 * b-man gos and checks progress with installer Jan 09 21:33:13 i'll be back, i need to help shovel some snow (were haveing a huge snowstorm atm) Jan 09 21:33:36 hehe Jan 09 21:35:28 shovelling snow :: faster than watching linux install Jan 09 21:36:21 heh @ koos on the mailing list, im sure he thinks khertan is a n00b Jan 09 21:54:51 on the tablet, if the browserd is running at 183M thats a little high and suggests a leak doesnt it Jan 09 21:55:00 with only one page open currently Jan 09 22:01:52 What about Terminal version of OMWeather?) Jan 09 22:02:16 "$ weather" Jan 09 22:02:24 People say that OMWeather handles too much functionality in it Jan 09 22:02:28 "you might want to stay inside today. it's dark, depressing outside. and there's vampires." Jan 09 22:02:47 wazd: i'd rather say a dbus service, but thats just me.. Jan 09 22:02:49 sounds like another day in the life of stskeeps Jan 09 22:03:03 w00t: that's how i think every morning these days since it's not light outside at 8am Jan 09 22:03:07 indeed. Jan 09 22:04:53 ok, for serious, how do you like "weather station mode"?) Jan 09 22:05:10 Thar be monsters Jan 09 22:05:36 dbus is good Jan 09 22:05:43 something like this: http://i077.radikal.ru/0901/56/024d8b6ee5ea.png Jan 09 22:06:06 wazd: full screen widgets when charging could be interesting Jan 09 22:06:11 kinda like chumby Jan 09 22:06:58 then again, anything pretty is way outside my area of expertise Jan 09 22:06:59 :P Jan 09 22:08:05 Well, that mimics some stand alone devices to show weather... and time)) Jan 09 22:08:23 wazd: speaking of pretty things, you happen to have any good redistributable wallpapers we can use for the initial art of Mer? Jan 09 22:08:57 I can do it specially for Mer Jan 09 22:09:33 just so we start having something that looks better than grey X background .. :> Jan 09 22:10:23 btw, wazd: http://bsd.tspre.org/~stskeeps/weirdhildon.png Jan 09 22:10:28 is a dormant layout laying in hildon Jan 09 22:10:34 just thought of that when i saw your suggestions Jan 09 22:10:34 Can we get a picture of Stskeeps drunk to use as the default? Jan 09 22:10:44 i'm sure w00t has a couple laying about. Jan 09 22:10:50 * b-man hoped he did not just blow up his computer. X[ Jan 09 22:12:22 r2d2rogers: ping? Jan 09 22:12:46 Watching the webOS video at http://www.palminfocenter.com/news/9671/palm-ces-event-video-highlights/ so makes me want an OMAP3 pocketable device Jan 09 22:13:23 Stskeeps: pong Jan 09 22:13:55 r2d2rogers: what kernel version do you have in internal flash Jan 09 22:13:56 ? Jan 09 22:13:56 rzr: howdy, I saw you asked about Mer on 770 earlier? Jan 09 22:14:01 * b-man just installed ubuntu to his c drive... oh god... Jan 09 22:14:14 r2d2rogers: (i'm doing the imager right now cos my work computer crashed) Jan 09 22:14:16 fanoush's 48Mhz all singing special Jan 09 22:14:21 b-man: heh, bye bye porn collection Jan 09 22:14:22 :P Jan 09 22:14:27 Jaffa, my life since before the N810 was announced. ;) Jan 09 22:14:30 r2d2rogers: uname -a ? Jan 09 22:14:51 just wondering the version Jan 09 22:14:55 checking in maemo on my other 770 Jan 09 22:14:59 k Jan 09 22:15:04 and there's a typical umac.ko there? Jan 09 22:15:22 * b-man watches in horror as win98 starts to get eaten by ubuntu.... Jan 09 22:15:23 (list the firmware .arm's laying about too in initfs) Jan 09 22:15:35 2.6.16.27-omap1 #4 PREEMPT Jan 09 22:15:51 b-man: i think it's karma for accidentially wiping out Meiz's SD card the other day ;) Jan 09 22:16:01 lol Jan 09 22:16:03 r2d2rogers: ta Jan 09 22:17:06 just in /mnt/initfs or? Jan 09 22:17:20 yeah Jan 09 22:18:41 Stskeeps: meh, that computer was usless to me anyways... :) Jan 09 22:18:44 b-man: hehe Jan 09 22:18:54 3825.arm and 3826.arm Jan 09 22:19:03 k Jan 09 22:19:07 that's curious really Jan 09 22:19:15 is it OS2008HE? Jan 09 22:19:17 or which? Jan 09 22:19:28 yup Jan 09 22:19:32 OS2008HE Jan 09 22:19:33 k Jan 09 22:19:42 can reflash one if needed Jan 09 22:19:58 nah, im good Jan 09 22:20:01 I have my working install on mmc anyhwo Jan 09 22:20:04 kk Jan 09 22:20:11 i'm just setting up image generation so Jan 09 22:20:18 also booted the Mer in case you need anything more Jan 09 22:20:22 \o/ Jan 09 22:20:56 * r2d2rogers checks bugzilla for the sapwood bug again Jan 09 22:21:02 nothing new really Jan 09 22:21:29 i'll take a whip at it, but first after my exams Jan 09 22:21:45 sounds good Jan 09 22:28:01 Stskeeps: when you'll have Mer meeting next time? Jan 09 22:28:45 wazd: think start of february really.. originally planned was this month, but i'm personally swamped and we need a proper initial image first Jan 09 22:28:48 which is getting very close Jan 09 22:28:55 i overestimated how much time i had in december so :) Jan 09 22:29:15 * b-man starts to point and chuckel as the win98 desktop begins to disolve on the screen. :D Jan 09 22:30:12 Stskeeps: What actual borders of UI should I have? Jan 09 22:31:33 Stskeeps: Maybe I should read more bout hildon itself Jan 09 22:31:41 wazd: well, depends on what you are aiming to do :) Jan 09 22:32:44 our hildon is using hildon-theme-plankton Jan 09 22:32:47 currently Jan 09 22:32:57 and the typical layout which diablo also uses Jan 09 22:33:14 but isn't limited to only using that, though :) Jan 09 22:33:42 My aim depends on what I should do) Jan 09 22:33:49 hehe Jan 09 22:34:32 Wallpaper - ok, I can make personal theme if it's maemo compatible Jan 09 22:34:37 yeah, it is Jan 09 22:34:42 (i think) Jan 09 22:35:23 you saw screenshots from mer already? Jan 09 22:35:32 http://trac.tspre.org/meiz/Screenshot-4.png , etc Jan 09 22:35:48 some of, but it looks similar to maemo scratchbox :) Jan 09 22:35:52 hehe Jan 09 22:35:54 exactly :) Jan 09 22:36:26 which isnt always the prettiest Jan 09 22:36:37 To anybody who's flashed one of the recent FIASCO images, are flash-and-reboot, initfs-flash, and kernel-diablo-flash included? Jan 09 22:37:03 wazd: our biggest problem is basically lack of artwork, - the sdk icons are obviously not the same as on tablet itself Jan 09 22:37:08 and themes Jan 09 22:37:31 well, I definitely can help that way) Jan 09 22:37:42 i hope we will get closer to a point where people really can start experimenting with it Jan 09 22:38:09 we've also seperated the hildon desktop from the layout, so you can change to layouts like http://bsd.tspre.org/~stskeeps/weirdhildon.png if you so wanted Jan 09 22:38:38 Let's start with simple :) Jan 09 22:38:39 just by apt-getting another layout Jan 09 22:38:40 hehe Jan 09 22:39:32 RST38h: funny fact i just noticed. Jan 09 22:39:37 you remember speaking of 32-bit color? Jan 09 22:40:44 RST38h: guess what sapwood has now? 24 and 32 bit support :) Jan 09 22:41:41 I just came up with some maemo.org changes, just for myself, hows it guys? http://s59.radikal.ru/i164/0901/c3/f8601aec961c.png Jan 09 22:42:39 immediate direction, the artwork on the left in "get involved" and "get help", together, looks like a football stadium :) Jan 09 22:43:01 reaction, i mean Jan 09 22:43:23 wazd: a little too cramped compared with your earlier design Jan 09 22:44:44 Yep, too narrow for 4 coloumns Jan 09 22:45:33 * Jaffa should go to bed. No idea how well Jaffina'll sleep Jan 09 22:47:51 r2d2rogers: 770 stuff merged into imager now btw Jan 09 22:48:28 lol, image scaling works in WebKit. Jan 09 22:48:55 Much faster than it ever did in MicroB, too. Jan 09 22:49:34 \o/ Jan 09 22:49:41 should really try that webkit thing sometime. if it's half as good as midori.. Jan 09 22:49:53 I still need to get pluged in better with bzr and the SDK Jan 09 22:49:54 http://www.internettablettalk.com/forums/showpost.php?p=255923&postcount=89 makes an interesting point. If pronvit's done so much with webkit-eal in a few weeks, why didn't Nokia do it? Jan 09 22:49:58 but for some reason Minimalist annihilates inertial. Jan 09 22:50:06 Stskeeps: I had a quick play this afternoon - it's very cool Jan 09 22:50:18 Jaffa: isn't webkit used on the other N-devices? Jan 09 22:50:20 GAN800: As did full Gmail Jan 09 22:50:22 I didn't know that somebody was able to install Slackware (ARMedSlack) on the Nokia 770. Jan 09 22:50:37 skibur: nitdroid and Mer is much cooler, though Jan 09 22:50:40 Jaffa, maybe js mouseover stuff? Jan 09 22:50:43 Stskeeps: I don't know to what extent. Jan 09 22:50:57 GAN800: Definitely JSey, mouseover or some other event handling perhaps. Jan 09 22:51:09 Jaffa: we could run GWT applications on N96, at least Jan 09 22:51:19 * Jaffa wonders if paternity leave is a good time to get stuck into Mer. Jan 09 22:51:43 http://vidar.gimp.org/n770/slackware.phpx Jan 09 22:51:52 i always seem to get stuck into these things when i have exams Jan 09 22:52:06 Stskeeps, all nokia symbian s60 9.1 phones use a webkit based browser Jan 09 22:52:15 thought so Jan 09 22:52:16 i think it tears more when theres LESS to do because its trying to draw more frames Jan 09 22:52:33 Webkit does show more problems with websites Jan 09 22:52:37 than Gecko Jan 09 22:52:40 GAN800: Your follow on point about the fact that the community's able to provide this stuff is a Good Thing is also true :) Jan 09 22:53:19 r2d2rogers: able to do a quick sapwood switcheroo? Jan 09 22:53:21 just compiled trunk Jan 09 22:53:30 Stskeeps: yessir Jan 09 22:53:35 Jaffa, think about how much better the reception would've been with scrolling like this when OS2008 came out. . . . Jan 09 22:53:35 have itup and able Jan 09 22:54:42 r2d2rogers: http://bsd.tspre.org/~stskeeps/sapwoodtrunk/ Jan 09 22:54:44 two packages there Jan 09 22:55:02 GAN800: aye. Even looking at the webOS demo part of me was thinking "what's the chance of Fremantle being that integrated, consistent and thought out (ah, the benefits of having a wholly new platform)" - oh, and "mmm, more OMAP3 demo luvliness", the other part was thinking "this is old, it's not doing anything the iPhone didn't do 2 years ago, except multitasking" Jan 09 22:55:13 Stskeeps: will do, then reboot Jan 09 22:55:47 Once again: iPhone does multitasking. Jan 09 22:55:48 GAN800: (my point being that fremantle'll have to be absolutely good, rather than just relatively good to get Maemo back on people's radars) Jan 09 22:56:26 RST38h: s/multitasking/running multiple end-user applications at the same time beyond any core set of services/ Jan 09 22:56:45 "multitasking" seemed like an understandable shortcut ;-) Jan 09 22:57:05 the running apps mostly seemed reactive though Jan 09 22:57:25 lcuk: true - there was no demoing of notification of new email, inbound call, IM etc. Jan 09 22:57:32 hi Jan 09 22:57:33 Hope Fremantle would be even better Jan 09 22:57:47 Jaffa: Once you jailbreak it, it does that as well Jan 09 22:57:50 there was i think, something updated on one of the windows Jan 09 22:57:57 Jaffa: there was a demo of it in fact Jan 09 22:57:59 * Stskeeps coughs a bit on the iTT comment that openmoko was a stunning success Jan 09 22:58:07 As to Fremantle, you better start lowering your expectations RIGHT NOW Jan 09 22:58:15 Jaffa: of e-mail, IM and call Jan 09 22:58:16 Stskeeps: sarcasm. Jan 09 22:58:17 hola Jan 09 22:58:21 wazd: oh, cool - missed it, then. Jan 09 22:58:23 Jaffa: better hope so :P Jan 09 22:58:37 have you guys seen the new Asus EEE d200 nas server? Jan 09 22:58:39 http://www.engadget.com/2009/01/08/asus-eee-d200-with-touchscreen-display-sneaks-out-in-taiwan/ Jan 09 22:58:42 RST38h, not really it doesnt, if you jailbreak it you get access to the OS to run your own stuff, but you cannot magically make the game engine do more without serious work Jan 09 22:58:42 Because there is no way it is going to be as good as a few dozen hardcore fans will expect it to be, for 6 months. Jan 09 22:58:47 it runs linux Jan 09 22:59:02 lcuk: Mmm? Jan 09 22:59:25 lcuk: You can run multiple processes at the same time, that is multitasking Jan 09 22:59:26 RST38h: Well, a jailbroken iPhone is running a Unix-like OS in which you can run some processes in the background. But foreground apps still will receive the "save & shutdown" signal on the user pressing the home button (or whatever it's called) Jan 09 22:59:33 the game engine is what you play all the time on these phones - its likely what fremantle will be, sure you might find a hack and get into the core machine Jan 09 22:59:39 sisto: whywouldyouneed a touch screen on a .. NAS? Jan 09 22:59:46 Stskeeps: booted faster, testing now Jan 09 22:59:51 Jaffa: Ok. What happens if I do not heed the signal then? Jan 09 22:59:55 Stskeeps: why not? Jan 09 23:00:01 Stskeeps: same behavior Jan 09 23:00:03 RST38h: Though I agree, Fremantle'll probably not meet expectations. Even Nokia have been trying to manage expectations of Fremantle by better pointing to Harmattan Jan 09 23:00:05 sisto: why not pink ponies as well Jan 09 23:00:06 :P Jan 09 23:00:14 :) Jan 09 23:00:16 I wish backward compatibility Jan 09 23:00:34 but the game engine says theres a set number of characters doing things, if you want to add more characters interacting with the main game you need to know how to reprogram the engine Jan 09 23:00:42 Jaffa: Basically, by looking at my crystal balls (tm), I see three major snafus coming: Jan 09 23:00:47 r2d2rogers: alright, needed to get that out of the way Jan 09 23:00:57 Jan 09 23:01:13 RST38h: I don't know what happens if you ignore the save signal; I'm not an iPhone dev. I expect you get killed. I really don't care enough to get into *another* semantic argument with you, this time about whether the iPhone can multitask. I know it can at the OS level. At the end-user level, you can't have multiple apps installed from the App Store running at the same time. Jan 09 23:01:35 RST38h, imagine how difficult it would be to do extra special things in doom or something Jan 09 23:01:36 Stskeeps: it looks expensive (that nas) Jan 09 23:01:45 ie to show through your alarm clock Jan 09 23:01:55 sisto: also, why 6 channel HD audio l.. in a NAT?! Jan 09 23:01:56 Stskeeps: anything else before I leave? Jan 09 23:01:57 NAS Jan 09 23:01:58 Jaffa: 1) Clutter being just another overblown graphics api, not delivering on expectations, 2) new tracker-based search indexer wasting battery and 3) more browser fun Jan 09 23:02:02 r2d2rogers: nah, i'm good for now Jan 09 23:02:27 Stskeeps: but it's eee branded, it's supposed to be cheapo Jan 09 23:02:33 Jaffa: Would be interesting to see which of these will actually happen =) Jan 09 23:02:45 RST38h, clutter is the base library, the ui interactions ontop can be anything the game engine developers wants it to be Jan 09 23:02:47 Have a good weekend all Jan 09 23:03:02 c ya) Jan 09 23:03:05 sisto, ive seen the eee tablet, its looking nice Jan 09 23:03:09 cya r2d2rogers Jan 09 23:03:09 lcuk: Won't be very difficult, no more difficult than in other Unix like systems Jan 09 23:03:24 RST38h: I'd bet on things like Clutter and Tracker having such poor UIs built on top of them, that any benefits of the technology have some, err, barriers to overcome ;-) Jan 09 23:03:46 lcuk: you mean the 12 inch one? i think it runs linux though Jan 09 23:03:53 not difficult to jailbreak and run regular apps, you are right, but to run apps outside what the game engines rules Jan 09 23:04:04 means you cannot run the game Jan 09 23:04:15 Jaffa: Tracker will probably cause problems in disk space, performance, and battery life department. The UIs to Tracker I have seen so far in Ubuntu are fine Jan 09 23:04:17 Jaffa: not only can user installed apps not multitask (after the save signal, then you get killed after 1 second anyway) but apple's built in stuff like the media player and email client leak like hell and leave very little memory for the user apps Jan 09 23:04:26 lcuk: i meant to say "i think it runs windows though" Jan 09 23:04:43 Jaffa: But silently eating off 200MB of disk space for indices I will not forget :) Jan 09 23:04:44 sisto, when i get one it will run liqbase :) Jan 09 23:05:04 RST38h: That's what /media/mmc3 will be for ;-) Jan 09 23:05:12 Robot101: lovely Jan 09 23:05:20 Robot101, leaking email client? i'd suspect that they've been stealing ideas of nokia :> Jan 09 23:05:21 Jaffa: using perforated paper tape, no doubt? =) Jan 09 23:05:30 lcuk: hopefully they'll release it with linux also Jan 09 23:05:52 lcuk: I do not really understand what you mean by game engine: at some point iPhone should just give you a frame buffer pointer Jan 09 23:06:14 lcuk: After that you can couple with it any way you wish, from as many threads as you wish Jan 09 23:06:26 why does it need to give you DMA access? Jan 09 23:06:33 or rather bare pointer Jan 09 23:06:47 you don't build a UI /on/ clutter though, you build a UI /with/ clutter... like you might use X or cairo or gtk as parts of building a UI Jan 09 23:07:14 lcuk: does liqbase replace the OS on the tablet? Jan 09 23:07:19 yes Robot101, you use clutter as your low level box/visualization manager Jan 09 23:07:25 lcuk: or does it run on top of linux? Jan 09 23:07:33 no sisto, it runs ontop of linux :) Jan 09 23:07:45 lcuk: It is an ARM based gadget, so most likely you will get a pointer Jan 09 23:07:55 RST38h, depends on the API Jan 09 23:07:58 lcuk: I can even predict what it will be, with some precision Jan 09 23:07:59 Robot101: except Nokia are talking about providing a way of integrating Clutter & Gtk in ways which (AFAICT) haven't been done before. But my concern in the UI is based on the general mishmash of concepts in diablo we see in Nokia-delivered applications :) Jan 09 23:08:05 it might all be SDL like abstraction Jan 09 23:08:18 there's something wrong with this page: http://liqbase.garage.maemo.org/working/ Jan 09 23:08:30 images not showing up Jan 09 23:08:34 lcuk: At the bottom there is still hardware and it does have a frame buffer and it does have an address Jan 09 23:08:39 http://liqbase.net/ Jan 09 23:08:47 sisto, thats cos it never went live Jan 09 23:09:17 yeah, but why does the user app need to know it - do you think its gonna be accessible in webos? Jan 09 23:09:17 is this you? http://liqbase.net/liq.20081020_040201.gary.scr.png Jan 09 23:09:43 a few of them resemble me yes :) Jan 09 23:09:50 Jaffa: well... will be interesting to see what they've come up with ;) Jan 09 23:09:57 Jaffa: BTW, are there any news on the mail client in Fremantle? Does Modest stay? Jan 09 23:10:45 RST38h: AFAICT, there's no-one working on Modest fulltime in development any more. Certainly not heard any noises about any development. None of the original dev team seem to be involved any more (which may, or may not, be a good thing ;-)) Jan 09 23:11:09 Of course, with some more bug fixes and a fremantle-powered (scrollable) UI, it might be half decent. Jan 09 23:11:21 Jaffa: It is weird because I can't imagine a tablet without a working mail client Jan 09 23:11:43 RST38h: I've not had trouble imagining it, I've got one in my bag...? :D Jan 09 23:11:43 Nokia'd say: just use your browser. Same as you would for a calendar ;-) Jan 09 23:11:48 Jaffa: Naah, the backend does not work well, no UI will fix that =( Jan 09 23:11:50 in the same way theres a web engine in webkit, is there a core email framework available? Jan 09 23:12:00 lol rst Jan 09 23:12:08 I like how the whole dev team just jettisoned as soon as it was out the door. Jan 09 23:12:11 lcuk: camel & evolution; perhaps. Which modest is using. Jan 09 23:12:21 GeneralAntilles: do we know if it was pushed or jumped? Jan 09 23:12:25 Jaffa: If Khertan has his way, we may be able to do just that Jan 09 23:12:36 lcuk: Camel Jan 09 23:12:38 Jaffa, the Diablo requirement didn't help thing. Jan 09 23:12:41 s Jan 09 23:12:47 bbl Jan 09 23:12:49 RST38h: ta Jan 09 23:12:52 GeneralAntilles: ah Jan 09 23:12:55 ll Jan 09 23:13:02 GeneralAntilles: which requirements? Jan 09 23:13:49 Jaffa: camel isn't that great a library, tinymail had to hack it very hard to get anywhere sensible, with mixed results Jan 09 23:14:00 lcuk: i'm watching your videos on youtube Jan 09 23:14:12 Jaffa: like diablo has evolution data server kinda tortured for the contacts app... Jan 09 23:14:18 Robot101, of shipping Modest with Diablo Jan 09 23:14:26 Which meant to was very rushed. Jan 09 23:14:28 heh :) i need to make a new one soon. must finish this step off first Jan 09 23:14:41 They could have kept the original mail client... Jan 09 23:14:42 But I find it bizarre that the whole dev team left immediately after that rather than fixing the loose ends. Jan 09 23:14:42 Robot101: Mixed results indeed. So much effort went into tinymail to start with, modest doesn't feel like it had the same thoroughness. Jan 09 23:14:49 Yes, it was basic, but it worked Jan 09 23:15:01 is the original closed? Jan 09 23:15:06 No, it was open. Jan 09 23:15:11 osso-email was closed. Jan 09 23:15:12 General: Are those developers still alive? Anyone checked? =) Jan 09 23:15:12 then why cant it live on? Jan 09 23:15:18 No mass suicide? =) Jan 09 23:15:26 GeneralAntilles: ah right. I think there was also personnel change (unrelated reasons I think) there which meant that there weren't people pushing it very hard after that Jan 09 23:15:26 GeneralAntilles: ah, of course. I get confused that things with osso- in the name could be closed ;-) Jan 09 23:15:30 but im meant to be gone now Jan 09 23:15:43 Jaffa, well, at least it's dead now. ;) Jan 09 23:15:45 Some parts were open, some closed to my knowledge Jan 09 23:15:45 osso-email had some GPL backend based off sylpheed I thought, and closed UI Jan 09 23:15:46 begone, lcuk! Jan 09 23:15:57 RST38h, djcb is on Planet every so often. Jan 09 23:16:22 General: He may have been tasked with killing the rest! Jan 09 23:16:24 the modest folks at igalia are still alive, they're probably just buried under a different project now :) Jan 09 23:16:26 Robot101: correct. I tried poking around with various low-level Sylpheed settings to try and get it to be more sensible (e.g. quoting) to no success Jan 09 23:16:37 sergio hangs out in here most of the time and I think he's one of the leaders for Modest these days. Jan 09 23:16:43 * RST38h sees an opportunity for a conspiracy theory here Jan 09 23:16:49 lcuk: it looks awesome... are you going to make a widget library with all that? Jan 09 23:17:07 Robot101: Is Modest source available somewhere? Is it buildable? Jan 09 23:17:10 i bet all apps could benefit from your work Jan 09 23:17:26 RST38h: somewhere, yes. most probably... garage.maemo.org perhaps? Jan 09 23:17:34 RST38h, it's always been open Jan 09 23:17:36 porting some light gtk client over might be less bad - claws or sylpheed itself...? Jan 09 23:17:44 Robot: Aha Jan 09 23:17:50 tbh I've ended up using mutt w/ ssh in times of desparation :O Jan 09 23:18:01 Robot: ssh+pine here Jan 09 23:18:10 No desperation at all, used to pine Jan 09 23:18:12 Robot101: I ported Sylpheed ages ago. Claws has hildon & maemo support upstream now. Jan 09 23:18:35 Jaffa: nice, how does it work? Jan 09 23:18:43 http://modest.garage.maemo.org/ Jan 09 23:18:47 I still think the UI is probably over complex (hitting small targets with a stylus on a train isn't fun) Jan 09 23:18:58 RST38h: I'm usually a thunderbird user, but HAHAHA for that on a tablet unfortunately Jan 09 23:19:25 Jaffa: hrm, I worked on a Psion Netbook Pro linux port and we patched up the sylpheed UI to be simpler Jan 09 23:19:59 Jaffa: I think teklogix lawyers are hiding behind every corner and looking for anyone who decides to try and, y'know, release any of the code we made :( Jan 09 23:20:10 we had a cool gpe desktop thing which was kinda like hildon before its time... Jan 09 23:20:13 Robot101 hehe you are at kernel concepts? Jan 09 23:20:19 woglinde: no, collabora Jan 09 23:20:38 woglinde: but at that time it was just an internship at aleph one near cambridge Jan 09 23:20:58 my first embedded linux project, cancelled on the day it was supposed to start production Jan 09 23:21:25 Robot: Somebody ran Thunderbird on the tablet. It ran. Jan 09 23:21:28 Robot101: Yeah, I know a few people who've got one of them but can't release any of the s/w :-( Jan 09 23:21:50 Jaffa: I lent mine to someone... I wonder if he still has it... Jan 09 23:21:56 Robot: Slowly though. Jan 09 23:22:09 RST38h: yeah... like the openoffice ARM port ran... :P Jan 09 23:22:21 what browser does the n810 come with? Jan 09 23:22:22 pnaulls at his finest ;-) Jan 09 23:22:36 from manufacturer Jan 09 23:22:39 sisto: a Gecko-based browser, sometimes referred to as microb. Jan 09 23:22:47 see http://browser.garage.maemo.org/ Jan 09 23:22:56 Jaffa: thanks Jan 09 23:23:12 But the UI is separate from the browser engine, and there's a webkit replacement engine you can hotswap between (still under development, and not quite suitable for end-users yet) Jan 09 23:23:20 General: does not seem to offer latest source code, but digging around Jan 09 23:24:06 webkit rocks for ajax stuff Jan 09 23:24:15 SVN is available but the last update happened 2 months ago Jan 09 23:24:16 our webkit eal stuff was rad Jan 09 23:24:34 pretty speedy compared to microb I think :) Jan 09 23:25:32 Robot101: you seen pronvit's new webkit-eal? Jan 09 23:25:41 development of webkit gtk upstream is frustratingly slow Jan 09 23:26:09 we had someone working on it for months and finished in september, and loads of his patches are still awaiting review Jan 09 23:26:14 Jaffa: no, did it pick up from ours? Jan 09 23:26:27 (I dunno how useful that would be tbh, probably a lot of bitrot) Jan 09 23:26:42 Modest Users mailing list died somewhere in August Jan 09 23:26:46 Robot101: Don't think so, think it was greenfield Jan 09 23:27:05 Robot101: http://www.internettablettalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=25752 Jan 09 23:27:06 interestingly... where the hell did ours go?! Jan 09 23:27:10 * Robot101 pokes around on git.ccu Jan 09 23:29:06 Jaffa: wow that loks pretty nice, got further than we did I think Jan 09 23:29:13 we got distracted hacking the engine tbh Jan 09 23:29:18 heh Jan 09 23:29:38 WebKit itself's probably a lot better since then (or certainly more compellingly different to Gecko) Jan 09 23:29:39 hey lets do scr... oh wait Jan 09 23:29:42 how about zo... oh wait Jan 09 23:29:47 file do... nope... Jan 09 23:30:07 webkit's codebase is cool compared to gecko Jan 09 23:30:24 but I think the community/process/etc around gecko is a lot more healthy Jan 09 23:30:34 which is ironic becuase its mad code and really hard to get stuff done in Jan 09 23:30:49 Isn't putting your head in a bucket of jam, then doing hand stands in the middle of a colony of soldier ants, more cool than Gecko's codebase Jan 09 23:31:04 haha Jan 09 23:32:01 GAN800: half-finished sentence in your post here http://www.internettablettalk.com/forums/showpost.php?p=256013&postcount=113 Jan 09 23:32:47 http://git.collabora.co.uk/?p=webkit-eal.git;a=summary Jan 09 23:32:50 there we go Jan 09 23:32:56 page didn't load proerly Jan 09 23:32:58 *properly Jan 09 23:33:01 god damn can't type either Jan 09 23:33:03 bad wireless :P Jan 09 23:33:53 * Robot101 goes to discuss the details with captain pillow Jan 09 23:33:59 Ditto Jan 09 23:34:02 g'night all Jan 09 23:37:38 does nokia record these conversations? :P Jan 09 23:37:53 Jaffa, lol, I do that a lot. Jan 09 23:37:57 this channel is logged publically, yeah, sisto Jan 09 23:38:25 * GeneralAntilles jumps around a lot when writing stuff. Jan 09 23:39:58 all my skin is peeling off from the sun Jan 09 23:40:21 .. sun? Jan 09 23:40:26 where are you, africa? Jan 09 23:40:26 :P Jan 09 23:40:34 close Jan 09 23:40:37 south america Jan 09 23:41:31 heh Jan 09 23:41:38 i forgot to use sun lotion :P Jan 09 23:41:45 i didn't think i would need it Jan 09 23:41:46 sisto: what did you do? :) Jan 09 23:41:54 Oh well, SLEEP. Jan 09 23:42:18 zeenix: i went to the beach Jan 09 23:43:12 RST38h: gnight! :) Jan 09 23:43:57 cya RST38h Jan 09 23:44:45 sisto: you can freely use sun loyion here in russia, we have mild -15 :) Jan 09 23:45:13 nice Jan 09 23:45:28 you need ice lotion Jan 09 23:45:35 :P Jan 09 23:46:12 More than that, you can go to Yakutsk Jan 09 23:46:24 They have chilly -43 now O_o Jan 09 23:47:37 I suddenly realised that I haven't faced such low temperature in my whole life :) Jan 09 23:48:03 -43 kelvin? Jan 09 23:48:16 yep :) Jan 09 23:48:20 mavhc: :P Jan 09 23:49:01 damn, -43 C is extremly cold I guess Jan 09 23:51:23 if you'd said -40 you'd be ok, unless I looked up weird scales on wikipedia Jan 09 23:51:47 wazd: yes... i think the lowest i had was close to -5 or -10 Jan 09 23:51:54 C Jan 09 23:52:17 0 C = 32 F Jan 09 23:52:32 The lowest temperature in my life was about -35 C Jan 09 23:52:46 When I was very young Jan 09 23:53:29 But -43 is trully hardcore Jan 09 23:53:59 I cannot for the life of me, get this kernel module to build. can anyone help me? Jan 09 23:54:59 the only kernel module I ever built was ndiswrapper :P Jan 09 23:55:32 and I only had to follow the howto Jan 09 23:55:53 ThatOneGuy whats the problem? Jan 09 23:55:57 exactly Jan 09 23:56:05 install sratchbox Jan 09 23:56:09 got that Jan 09 23:56:16 update to the latest diablo rev Jan 09 23:56:23 install kernel-header-package Jan 09 23:56:28 Im not compiling for diablo Jan 09 23:56:34 lol Jan 09 23:56:50 Im trying to compile the rtl8187 module for my 770 lol Jan 10 00:00:22 I thought I had it at one point, but when I tried to insmod it all I got was that 'Invalid format' error Jan 10 00:01:05 heh, did you compile it on your PC? Jan 10 00:01:27 yes Jan 10 00:02:20 * Jaffa looks at the CSS niceness from webkit-eal on his tablet: http://webkit.org/blog/182/css-reflections/, for example Jan 10 00:03:28 I think I used the rx-34 kernel sources when it worked. I think that's the problem. but I can't get it to compile with the 2.6 source Jan 10 00:04:48 sorry i'm just asking out of curiosity... how do you compile arm stuff on the pc? you use a toolchain? Jan 10 00:05:04 scratchbox Jan 10 00:05:12 sisto: Scratchbox, typically. Basically a chroot containing a cross-compiling toolchain Jan 10 00:07:33 Right. Proper bed now. Jan 10 00:08:51 ThatOneGuy, rx-34 kernel sources are 2.6 Jan 10 00:09:11 hi qwerty Jan 10 00:09:25 hey woglinde Jan 10 00:09:42 oh, my bad. how can I fix that 'invalid format' error then? Jan 10 00:09:55 ThatOneGuy: so you get invalid format when you try to mod probe ? Jan 10 00:10:09 yes Jan 10 00:10:39 ThatOneGuy, what version is the kernel on your 770? Jan 10 00:11:01 2.6.16.27-omap1 says uname -r Jan 10 00:11:07 qwerty12_N800: how long did it take to install ubuntu on your computer? because it's been 4 hours and it is still checking install files. :p Jan 10 00:11:51 b-man, on my newer one? 30 mins :D. On my old one, I never tried... Jan 10 00:12:20 ThatOneGuy, what version is the kernel sources you are compiling against? Jan 10 00:12:31 * b-man shuld just give up and wait for his Dell Studio 15 :p Jan 10 00:12:42 ThatOneGuy: there's some stuff here you might want to read: http://ibot.rikers.org/%23maemo/20071114.html.gz Jan 10 00:12:53 search for "invalid format" Jan 10 00:14:01 qwerty, I'm not sure. I just got the rx-34 sources from the repo Jan 10 00:14:33 what's the name of the tarball then? Jan 10 00:14:36 Hello Jan 10 00:14:42 :) Jan 10 00:15:21 tehforum: hi Jan 10 00:15:59 it just says kernel-source-rx-34 Jan 10 00:17:23 * qwerty12_N800 can't help but have this feeling that you compiled x86 modules... Jan 10 00:17:51 they came from the bora repository Jan 10 00:18:34 hi, tehforum :) Jan 10 00:19:13 hey, i think i saw you yesterday as well Jan 10 00:19:20 i'm just checking in Jan 10 00:19:32 hm Jan 10 00:19:33 * ShadowJK ponders Jan 10 00:19:39 i need to get a new battery cover for my n810 Jan 10 00:22:02 tehforum: http://www.discountcell.com/cellular/Nokia-N810-Accessories.htm - hope this helps ;) Jan 10 00:22:27 qwerty12: would it help if I told you that the result of 'file r8187.ko' is '...ARM, version 1 (SYSV)...' while the modules that come with maemo return '...ARM, version 1 (ARM)...'? Jan 10 00:24:06 probably not as the fuse module I have says sysv but I now know not to trust my feelings :) Jan 10 00:24:49 but thats for n800 right? so did I somehow compile my module for 800 instead of 770? lol Jan 10 00:26:10 did you do a 'make nokia_n770_defconfig' in the source? is the module using that source to compile? Jan 10 00:26:58 nope, I dont think I did anything like that. Jan 10 00:27:37 I was following a guide for the 800 though, I couldnt find anything for 770 :s Jan 10 00:27:47 it's not nokia_n770_defconfig, not sure what it us. but doing that would help matters a lot. Jan 10 00:27:55 s/us/is/ Jan 10 00:27:55 qwerty12_N800 meant: it's not nokia_n770_defconfig, not sure what it is. but doing that would help matters a lot. Jan 10 00:28:58 thanks qwerty, I'm going to start over... again lol Jan 10 00:30:02 ThatOneGuy: I'm playing with Mer on my 770 now Jan 10 00:31:00 ahh, it's make n770_defconfig (thanks suihkulokki) Jan 10 00:31:34 Mer? Jan 10 00:31:54 ubuntu base for freemantle ideas backporting at this point Jan 10 00:31:56 ~mer Jan 10 00:31:57 it has been said that mer is http://wiki.maemo.org/Mer_Blueprint_New and http://wiki.maemo.org/Mer_Blueprint Jan 10 00:32:27 more for the N8x0's, but I'm getting help with trying it on a 770 too Jan 10 00:32:29 tehforum, this is a replacement cover + extra big memory card adapter - its done by someone in the community so if you are looking to buy a replacement would be good place to start Jan 10 00:32:29 http://www.internettablettalk.com/forums/showthread.php?p=254304#post254304 Jan 10 00:33:05 am I "make n770_defconfig"ing the kernel source? Jan 10 00:33:17 yes Jan 10 00:33:41 mkay, thanks Jan 10 00:34:04 i am gett Jan 10 00:34:09 pft Jan 10 00:34:15 it's also a nice idea to run make in it and let it churn out an kernel image, although i don't think you'll need to be flashing it Jan 10 00:34:27 stupid finger kbd Jan 10 00:35:49 where's my laser keyboard?! Jan 10 00:36:06 mistype and risk losing a fingertip Jan 10 00:36:32 lasers should activate if the user browses to facebook Jan 10 00:37:17 no, that'd be the neuralshock Jan 10 00:53:40 it seems stuck at 48% Jan 10 00:54:07 48% neuroshock is the recomended level to start with Jan 10 00:54:10 you dont want to make jello! Jan 10 00:58:44 currently, if i want to do live direct instant dynamic audio i use the esound library. does anyone know of a viable realtime modifyable audio subsystem which works on maemo Jan 10 00:58:59 alternative ^ Jan 10 00:59:55 I dont really think of maemo as realtime anything, IMHO Jan 10 01:00:12 Fireun :) then you haven't seen my work Jan 10 01:00:36 I would guess not Jan 10 01:01:01 http://maemo.org/downloads/product/OS2008/liqbase/ my youtube videos show what ive been doing Jan 10 01:02:38 whats your aim? Jan 10 01:03:16 seems like a super remote kinda intent Jan 10 01:03:30 personal, to lie back in bed and just doodle ideas and bring them to live :) Jan 10 01:03:41 life Jan 10 01:06:55 did any make usb audio drivers for maemo kernel? Jan 10 01:07:17 pupnik :D you may be the person to answer my question ^^ Jan 10 01:07:22 pupnik hm shouldnt be maemo specific Jan 10 01:07:23 i dunno Jan 10 01:07:25 what question Jan 10 01:07:43 and yes, lasers for facebook Jan 10 01:07:56 but if i wanted to make my own tiny sound samples as part of the frame rendering and send them to the speakers quickly how would i do it Jan 10 01:08:16 bleeps and bloops? Jan 10 01:08:20 and clicks and swishes? Jan 10 01:08:32 esound is laggy unless the sample sounds are over 1kb Jan 10 01:08:35 did you ditch sdl? Jan 10 01:08:36 ah Jan 10 01:08:41 almost, fully dynamic though Jan 10 01:08:43 more real Jan 10 01:08:59 so synthesize them :) Jan 10 01:09:08 jagernot almost got it working but it still glitches Jan 10 01:09:10 i am Jan 10 01:09:14 cool Jan 10 01:09:27 ok then constantly output a stream to esound Jan 10 01:09:42 i can make it work but the mouse coords come in too often and it gets lag Jan 10 01:10:01 so i lift off and it doesnt catch up with hand for a time Jan 10 01:10:04 ah Jan 10 01:10:08 like old slow refresh screen Jan 10 01:10:34 if i set the sample size too low it doesnt run at all (i think) until esounds internal buffer reaches a threshhold Jan 10 01:10:54 hm isnt esound dead Jan 10 01:10:58 ie sending 128bytes is useless because it wont do anything until it gets more data Jan 10 01:11:01 I hope with fremantle it will Jan 10 01:11:21 woglinde, im only using it because jagernot uses it to great effect in his boxar demo Jan 10 01:11:41 its almost right for the dynamic stuff i wanna do Jan 10 01:11:51 i wanted wind noises as we scroll things Jan 10 01:12:03 someone mentioned flipping book pages whilst in the book reader Jan 10 01:12:10 nicde Jan 10 01:12:11 e Jan 10 01:12:25 just simple feedback :) Jan 10 01:13:09 pupnik, have you seen boxar? Jan 10 01:16:05 no whagt's boxar Jan 10 01:21:27 https://garage.maemo.org/projects/boxar/ Jan 10 01:21:45 its like pyano on steroids :) Jan 10 01:21:54 very dynamic and attractive Jan 10 01:26:13 woglinde, what sound library should i use? can you show me a small example of sending a manually created buffer over :$ Jan 10 01:27:38 lcuk nope Jan 10 01:27:39 sorry Jan 10 01:27:52 sound is not my special thing Jan 10 01:28:15 now mine, i just want a blank canvas and see whether i can paint a picture for your ears Jan 10 01:28:21 not mine ^ Jan 10 01:32:14 ViewSonic VieBook Jan 10 01:32:36 lol, this name would definetely be banned in Russia :D Jan 10 02:47:20 looks neat lcuk Jan 10 02:58:03 hola? ._. Jan 10 02:58:10 Howdy Jan 10 02:58:17 o.o **** ENDING LOGGING AT Sat Jan 10 02:59:56 2009