**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Tue Jan 20 02:59:57 2009 Jan 20 03:00:52 just add the repo url to /etc/apt/sorces.list, e.g. deb http://www.ports.ubuntu.com/ main univers Jan 20 03:02:50 the system will automaticly search for debs with "armel". Jan 20 03:03:55 well, mer will because it's already armel, but I'm trying to install a armel package in an arm repo Jan 20 03:04:03 I mean from an arm distro Jan 20 03:04:17 hmm Jan 20 03:05:12 it searches in binary-arm instead of binary-armel like in the mer repos and the ubuntu ports Jan 20 03:07:17 dpkg --force-architecture? Jan 20 03:07:50 that might help) Jan 20 03:07:53 * b-man is installing/compiling busybox in gentoo on his n800 atm :) Jan 20 03:08:38 hmm. I guess I could just install packages individually like that. Jan 20 03:09:08 i think that might be the easyest way ;) Jan 20 03:18:16 I was trying to find the open embedded repositories, but couldn't come up with anything on google. Jan 20 03:25:44 neato_jones: would this help?; http://mojo.handhelds.org/hasty-armv6el-vfp Jan 20 03:27:22 b-man: thanks, that's what I ended up using. Jan 20 03:28:10 unfortunately, the two distro still don't like each other much. Jan 20 03:30:29 hehe Jan 20 03:31:21 so, I'm working on filing a bug in mer launchpad about the failed desktop load with gnome/xfce, but I've got no idea which package to blame Jan 20 03:31:42 might be xsessions :p Jan 20 03:34:17 I just didn't list one...they're gonna love me\ Jan 20 03:34:22 :D Jan 20 03:34:52 probably should be a bug in the actually ubuntu jaunty... Jan 20 03:34:56 from the way it sounds Jan 20 03:45:13 <`Mace> this sucks Jan 20 03:45:21 <`Mace> stupid macboook wn'tboot with a normal bootloader Jan 20 03:45:26 <`Mace> won't Jan 20 03:47:44 <`Mace> hm Jan 20 05:30:07 hehe Jan 20 05:30:32 maemo clock goes crazy if you change /etc/localtime Jan 20 05:54:07 has anyone out there who has tried mer think it is any faster than deblet or maemo? Jan 20 05:54:37 Haven't done enough to tell, really. Jan 20 05:55:04 It's hard for me to tell because you can't use any of the same window managers Jan 20 05:55:24 i use maemo Jan 20 05:55:28 Matchbox? Jan 20 05:55:45 Same for maemo and mer, right? Jan 20 05:55:50 I did flash mamona on to my device earlier today and it loads pages with midori much faster Jan 20 05:55:55 yeah, I guess that's true Jan 20 05:56:04 I never got it going on mine. Jan 20 05:56:18 my n810 can't get past the wizard in hildon Jan 20 05:56:42 The network connection wizard? Jan 20 05:56:52 nope, the add user wizard Jan 20 05:57:18 the n810 keyboard doesn't work and the on screen keyboard never popped up Jan 20 05:57:50 I had grief with the connection wizard overlapping windows so I couldn't dismiss the one underneath, which the top one was waiting on. Jan 20 05:58:00 Try clicking all around the box? Jan 20 05:58:24 My TS calibration is off by ~0.4 inch at the top edge of screen. Jan 20 05:58:59 hmm Jan 20 05:58:59 So I thought I had no onscreen keyboard for a while. But I was really missing the textbox entirely. Jan 20 05:59:03 Ill have to reinstall it Jan 20 05:59:22 the cursor was blinking in the box... Jan 20 05:59:28 Maybe I'm wrong Jan 20 05:59:31 I'll give it another go Jan 20 05:59:37 I"m installing deblet at the moment Jan 20 05:59:49 maybe I ought to toss it though and redo mer Jan 20 06:00:09 Not enough SD card to do both? Jan 20 06:00:13 I heard E17 updated some packages specifically for handheld devices Jan 20 06:00:26 I do. I just formated it for one though Jan 20 06:00:44 I have another card. I just didn't want to try putting on two at one time Jan 20 06:01:07 I formatted mine for pentaboot, when I started; figured I'd not run out that way. Jan 20 06:01:15 I'm not entirely certain deblet hasn't stalled on me anyway. Maybe I'll give 'er another shot Jan 20 06:01:29 I'm using one for swap, and still have one not in use. :D Jan 20 06:01:43 my modem keeps dying on me Jan 20 06:02:11 ATT is overnighting me a new one, but it's annoying because my internet keeps dying until it cools down Jan 20 06:02:25 so, big downloads keep making it croak Jan 20 06:02:29 wow.. in order to install kubuntu on a macbook. you have to install osx. run bootcamp. create what it calls a "windows" partition... reboot. hold c. boot the cd. install kubuntu. reboot. and hold alt/opt to boot the kubuntu partition Jan 20 06:02:41 there is no way to straight install it on x86 based macbooks :) Jan 20 06:02:45 that is retarded Jan 20 06:03:19 Pull HDD from macbook, and install it on a real computer? Jan 20 06:03:24 Can you run the ubuntu straight from the cd? Jan 20 06:03:35 neatojones: yes Jan 20 06:03:40 benson: i don't think that works Jan 20 06:03:48 mac boots of its internal firmware Jan 20 06:04:05 which i'm pretty sure uses bootcamp in osx to change things like that.. it's kinda stupid Jan 20 06:04:11 yeah, the only thing you'd need is a bootloader Jan 20 06:04:23 well.. you can't bypass bootcamp Jan 20 06:04:31 and you can't control it from the boot screen Jan 20 06:04:53 i'm sure you can use "t" when booting and turn it into a fw drive.. maybe doing something like that might work Jan 20 06:05:10 What a hassle... Jan 20 06:05:26 it wouldn't have been if i read up on it BEFORE trying a straight install Jan 20 06:05:30 so now i have to re-install osx :) Jan 20 06:05:44 i want to wipe osx off this macbook.. osx is overrated Jan 20 06:05:50 i personally hate it Jan 20 06:06:06 what about a virtual server Jan 20 06:06:18 ? Jan 20 06:06:21 you can install it inside OSX Jan 20 06:06:31 because.. i hate osx Jan 20 06:06:33 with virtualbox or VMWare Jan 20 06:06:37 and don't want it Jan 20 06:06:38 Well, if one hates OSX, one would want to be rid of it, not have it clogging resources. Jan 20 06:06:43 plus.. you take a performance hit doing that Jan 20 06:06:48 And not using it anyway. Jan 20 06:06:52 the vm would run like garbage Jan 20 06:06:57 not nearly as fast as running native Jan 20 06:07:20 you do. I just didn't know if you want to use it for a specific purpose like linux hacking or for everyday use Jan 20 06:07:21 i'm actually wondering if i could just use osx for a moment and then wipe the osx partition later and growfs the ext3 partition Jan 20 06:07:23 I agree Jan 20 06:07:41 linuxhacking? :) no.. i just want it for normal every day use Jan 20 06:07:54 i hate osx.. it is not as good as people make it out to be Jan 20 06:08:08 He's installing kubuntu. That's not for Linux-hacking. Jan 20 06:08:09 yes the underlying kernel and system is nice.. but the actual interface is incredibly lacking Jan 20 06:08:09 :p Jan 20 06:08:21 I'm waiting on a new computer (saving money) and my wife won't let me install linux as the default...so I'm stuck going virtual on a slow computer Jan 20 06:08:30 benson: i like kde 4.1.x ;) Jan 20 06:08:49 it's like a shitless vista Jan 20 06:08:54 and then I also qemu into armel from my virtual ubuntu on xp Jan 20 06:08:55 I hate KDE. Bad experience back with KDE 1.something, IIRC. Jan 20 06:09:04 1.x? hahaha Jan 20 06:09:06 I hate that everything starts with K Jan 20 06:09:09 welcome to 1995 Jan 20 06:09:21 But GNOME keeps being annoyinger and annoyinger, so I started hating it some time ago too. Jan 20 06:09:22 KDE 4.1.x is nice Jan 20 06:09:25 I get it, KDE is Kgreat Jan 20 06:09:27 i hate gtk based shit Jan 20 06:09:45 mostly because there seems to be inconsistency with developers Jan 20 06:09:56 I think they're about the same these days. Both have +'s and -'s Jan 20 06:09:57 such as.. OK and CANCEL on a lot of windows.... are swapped up Jan 20 06:09:59 GTK's not bad, IMHO. I just don't like the way they chase configurability around with an ax Jan 20 06:10:03 sometimes on the left sometimes on the right Jan 20 06:10:08 In the name of "usability". Jan 20 06:10:09 and the overall look of gtk is dated Jan 20 06:10:18 New theme* Jan 20 06:10:27 qt looks better than gtk Jan 20 06:10:37 especially the newer stuff Jan 20 06:10:49 gtk looks very mid 90s Jan 20 06:10:53 Athena FTW! Jan 20 06:10:58 easy fix. I agree. Normal qt does. But, I get so annoyed at the K everything...I just haven't ever got past it Jan 20 06:11:10 I hated gnome when it was the same Jan 20 06:11:14 athena does not look mid-90's Jan 20 06:11:25 heh.. well.. it is the best i have seen so far.. and i've tried quite a bit.. well.. at least for actual real world use Jan 20 06:11:25 mid-80's maybe. Jan 20 06:11:26 fuxin K, who whats that letter anyway, if k was cool cake would be spelled kake Jan 20 06:11:28 but it's not Jan 20 06:11:35 normally i'd use blackbox to be bare.. but kde 4.1.x grew on me Jan 20 06:11:36 now Q, there is a letter I can get behind Jan 20 06:11:39 In KDE, it is! Jan 20 06:11:43 Proteous: haha Jan 20 06:11:58 haha Jan 20 06:12:15 someone already took CDE Jan 20 06:12:16 bastards Jan 20 06:12:31 dang sun and their solaris Jan 20 06:12:33 QDE? i could see it Jan 20 06:12:36 lol Jan 20 06:12:41 I like FVWM, especially for laptops. Jan 20 06:12:51 i usually used blackbox Jan 20 06:12:56 I think anything other than terminal is for panzies Jan 20 06:12:58 (JK) Jan 20 06:13:04 hah Jan 20 06:13:16 probably.. guis are ok as long as you know how to get out of them Jan 20 06:13:22 But I'm planning to try a tiled WM on my desktop; it has the real-estate to handle it. Jan 20 06:13:25 who needs stinking mice anyway Jan 20 06:13:29 meaning if your gui doesn't work you should be able to fix things regardless Jan 20 06:13:36 but osx is crap Jan 20 06:13:50 it just grew on yuppies .. but it's absolute garbage Jan 20 06:13:58 it reminds me of gtk :) Jan 20 06:14:01 did you try the ubuntuforums.org? Jan 20 06:14:11 you remind me of gtk ;) Jan 20 06:14:18 i mean cmon.. it's supposed to be an advanced OS ... yet.. you can't change the color of the desktop icon's font? Jan 20 06:14:26 O.o Jan 20 06:14:42 That's... retarded. Jan 20 06:14:47 you can...you just have to pay money for a program that lets you Jan 20 06:14:49 i thought so too Jan 20 06:14:52 it's the apple way Jan 20 06:14:54 exactly! Jan 20 06:14:55 hahaha Jan 20 06:15:04 like changing the look requires 3rd party apps that cost money? Jan 20 06:15:08 they are seriously worse than MS Jan 20 06:15:11 you can't change the color of the menu at the top Jan 20 06:15:14 ? Jan 20 06:15:25 something like that shouldn't cost $50 from someone else Jan 20 06:15:28 Isn't there a KDE on OSX project? Jan 20 06:15:32 yeah Jan 20 06:15:39 I tried KDE on windows the other day. Jan 20 06:15:46 wow really.. does it get rid of aqua.. or whatever they call it Jan 20 06:15:55 It basically just lets you run KDE programs Jan 20 06:16:03 oh Jan 20 06:16:06 well. that sucks haha Jan 20 06:16:12 i figured it replaced the wm Jan 20 06:16:13 I think you can drop the aqua, but it takes a lot more tampering Jan 20 06:16:22 that would seriously be awesome Jan 20 06:16:28 Oh, I thought they had it working to replace everything. Jan 20 06:16:38 hm.. maybe i can look around Jan 20 06:16:43 what's it based on ... kde 3 or 4? Jan 20 06:16:46 Of course, you could just install *BSD and KDE, then... Jan 20 06:17:02 yeah but getting 4.1.x to run in fbsd.. that sounds like a pain in the ass Jan 20 06:17:06 The whole point of OSX is to put shiny on BSD. Jan 20 06:17:13 and they failed :) Jan 20 06:17:16 More pain than on OSX? Jan 20 06:17:24 my g3 works great as a server still tho Jan 20 06:17:39 i haven't had a monitor hooked up to it in like 4 years Jan 20 06:18:01 if android gets a lot better.. i might set up my n800 as a server and see how that works out Jan 20 06:20:14 http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1027937&highlight=mac Jan 20 06:20:32 Any mer devs around? Jan 20 06:21:09 better yet: http://ubuntuforums.org/forumdisplay.php?f=328 Jan 20 06:23:30 Macer: The stickies at the top of the last link I posted for you look like they have the info you are looking for Jan 20 06:25:02 Macer: Check this one out too: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/MacBook Jan 20 06:25:35 just follow the instrcutions to figure out which version of macbook you have and then click the link for instructions specific to your version. Jan 20 06:28:24 neatojones: i did that like 5 hours ago Jan 20 06:28:29 all those links lead to the same instructions Jan 20 06:28:48 trust me.. ive been looking around for a while now and the only way to do it is to have osx on the macbook Jan 20 06:30:44 so, you tried hitting c during bootup and then tab or whatever to select the ubuntu partition? Jan 20 06:33:10 It looks like rEFIt is the way to go. Jan 20 06:33:20 did you try that too? Jan 20 06:36:59 benson: in which direction was the touch off? Jan 20 06:37:13 where should I touch? Jan 20 06:37:46 I ought to be more specific, eh? I mean, if I want to grab a dialog box, in what general direction should it be touching the screen Jan 20 06:38:17 Well, I'm on an N800, so maybe not the same. Jan 20 06:38:31 But I had to tap 0.4" below the item Jan 20 06:38:33 bummer. Has anyone else with an N810 done it Jan 20 06:39:05 alright. Deblet is almost done unpacking so, I'll try it on my internel just for kicks. Jan 20 06:41:05 Meiz: Have you seen this?: http://www.linuxdevices.com/news/NS7635920803.html Jan 20 06:41:20 I'm going to try to get Illume going in deblet Jan 20 06:43:56 reFIt requires osx ;) Jan 20 06:44:00 so it's all thet same Jan 20 06:45:17 neatojones: cool stuff Jan 20 06:45:53 I don't think reFIt does. It claims you can put it on a cd and use it straight from the cd Jan 20 06:46:41 If Illume works on deblet then, I'll try to "upgrade" it to mer. Sounds crazy, but I actually got it to work once. Jan 20 07:15:33 * ccooke notes a couple of articles about Seed in gnome. I wonder how applicable that could be in Maemo. Jan 20 07:21:32 what's it do? Jan 20 07:28:18 well. neatojones was right Jan 20 07:28:28 you can just boot the rEFit cd and get it working Jan 20 07:28:33 kubuntu is booting now haha Jan 20 07:28:41 bbl.. going to make sure it doesn't suck Jan 20 07:28:56 does kubuntu use KDE 4 or 3? Jan 20 07:29:03 I thought it used 3 still Jan 20 07:29:12 you'll probably have to upgrade packages to 4 Jan 20 07:29:41 Macer: try installing the rEFIt to your system and see if it still works. Jan 20 07:38:42 mavhc: Seed? It's a linkage between the webkit javascript core and GObject. Jan 20 07:38:43 http://live.gnome.org/Seed Jan 20 07:50:28 neotojones Jan 20 07:50:31 it's working ;) Jan 20 07:50:41 i used the rEFIt boot disc.. i didn't notice they had one Jan 20 07:50:55 it just changed the partition table and now kubuntu is booting on mymacbook... so far the only problem i found is the sound isn't playing Jan 20 07:51:19 don't know exactly why but it is working great Jan 20 07:54:30 Maybe lack of drivers Jan 20 07:54:46 make sure they aren't restricted drivers too. May have to be enabled Jan 20 08:13:39 morning all Jan 20 08:14:29 Yes Jan 20 08:15:37 neatojones: nope.. it was just because my pcm channel was turned all the way down Jan 20 08:15:49 sorry. trying to get the right click working Jan 20 08:15:55 once i'm done with that then everything is downhill :) Jan 20 08:16:00 i can mod my kubuntu macbook Jan 20 08:16:19 i told you .. i'm going to confuse all the yuppies and tell them it's the new unreleased osx Jan 20 08:16:20 [1] 15:58 RST38h (away) on #maemo (+cn) * type /helehlo all Jan 20 08:16:22 haha Jan 20 08:16:28 hmmm Jan 20 08:16:31 at least 60% of idiotic mac users would believe me Jan 20 08:17:20 what about the remaining 40% idiotic mac users? Jan 20 08:17:24 Macer, and even where it was obviously worse than current Mac OS they'd call it an awesome improvement :) Jan 20 08:18:22 johnx: this wont work unless steve jobs presents it to them personally Jan 20 08:18:56 nah, I think I just need to get my hands on his reality distortion device Jan 20 08:19:33 it is probably something delivered through skin contact Jan 20 08:19:38 i mean, obviously it wasn't working for him when he was trying to sell NeXTStep, so it must be something he acquired later Jan 20 08:20:00 worked well on the original apples Jan 20 08:20:14 so apple may hold a patent to this Jan 20 08:20:26 aaah, very likely Jan 20 08:20:32 but it seems only jobs can use it right Jan 20 08:21:05 they modified him genetically and now it has caused cancer! Jan 20 08:21:08 anyone using Qt 4.5 beta1 in N800 ? Jan 20 08:21:27 cruel bastards these apple guys Jan 20 08:21:31 i have problem with virtual keyboard, it will overlap areas in qt application Jan 20 08:22:14 passeli: it is called beta for a reason Jan 20 08:25:17 yeah, i was just thinking that if anyone has find any solution for it Jan 20 08:25:34 or do i have to wait new release where it is fixed Jan 20 08:27:53 johnx - yeah.. they would Jan 20 08:27:54 haha Jan 20 08:28:21 nextstep was awesome Jan 20 08:28:23 :) Jan 20 08:28:33 wish i could get my hands on a cube Jan 20 08:28:44 they're kind of a bitch to find now tho Jan 20 08:32:09 hm Jan 20 08:32:22 i need to figure out how to right click with this goddamn one button macbook mouse in kde 4 Jan 20 08:32:33 wtf apple.. 1 button mouse? get with it! :) Jan 20 08:32:54 is that $0.0003 chinese button really that much of a pain on the bottom line? Jan 20 09:09:17 Morning. Jan 20 09:09:58 hi Jan 20 09:21:09 * Stskeeps is pissed at himself. turns out the book for the exam tomorrow wasn't at his office, but at his shelf at home. Jan 20 09:31:48 hello. can i start applets from xterm, and watch output? Jan 20 09:32:57 Yes Jan 20 09:33:49 In some cases you may have to stop a daemon and run it from the term. Or slightly modify the start script Jan 20 09:34:12 timelE61i: how? as i understand, applet is just lib for some hildon binary? Jan 20 09:34:33 alterego: how's the beagle doing? Jan 20 09:34:49 I've not even booted it yet O_O Jan 20 09:34:54 hehe Jan 20 09:34:56 I've been really busy at work. Jan 20 09:35:06 oh, appl*et* Jan 20 09:35:30 For that you'll need to run desktop from the term Jan 20 09:35:39 Sorry, busy Jan 20 09:36:38 timelE61i: yeah, my gpesummary works very strange, it shows calendars event, but it cannot start calendar, and doesn't show todo's, but start gpe-todo well. Jan 20 09:38:34 so, how developers debug their applets? Jan 20 09:39:24 log files maybe Jan 20 09:40:29 or actually, they test it in scratchbox Jan 20 09:48:53 hm Jan 20 09:49:08 i offended mac people because i told them that osx is overrated and macs are overpriced :) Jan 20 09:49:24 * Macer is enjoying his macbook much more with kubuntu on it Jan 20 09:49:46 i have to get root on my G1 Jan 20 09:49:54 Macer: i wasn't offended Jan 20 09:50:07 guess they have adhoc hackery similar to an iphone for it Jan 20 09:50:13 Macer: having to hack my own device is one reason why i dont want a G1 Jan 20 09:50:17 which would be pretty awesome Jan 20 09:50:20 also, the developer key stuff is outrageous Jan 20 09:50:22 Stskeeps: haha.. i know.. it's stupid Jan 20 09:50:25 it sure is Jan 20 09:50:34 you have to register.. then pay extra for an unlocked dev phone Jan 20 09:50:51 yes Jan 20 09:50:56 the open sourced nazis :) Jan 20 09:51:12 did you see the Mer release, btw? Jan 20 09:51:19 there are more devices coming out though.. so hopefully other companies won't be so anal... but i need to get root on it Jan 20 09:51:31 no.. not yet.. have to work on a couple other things first Jan 20 09:51:38 getting rid of osx is done tho :) Jan 20 09:51:42 hehe Jan 20 09:51:54 intel mac? Jan 20 09:51:58 yeah Jan 20 09:52:04 macbook (black one) Jan 20 09:52:16 then you can grab virtualbox for os x and try out the VDI eventually :) Jan 20 09:52:23 thank god i noticed rEFIt can boot Jan 20 09:52:44 haha.. screw osx.. it disgusts me Jan 20 09:52:58 all the macbook hardware is working in kubuntu so i'm a lot happier Jan 20 09:53:08 and i don't need 3rd party software to keep it out of sleep mode Jan 20 09:53:14 hehe Jan 20 09:53:17 and i can change my desktop icon font colors Jan 20 09:53:24 you know. all that shit that they decided to leave out Jan 20 09:53:43 i thought the inability to change 99% of the colors in osx was also a wonderful apple idea Jan 20 09:53:55 Jan 20 09:54:44 i changed my background in osx one day and noticed i couldn't see the icon fonts.. so i figured i'd just go into some settings pane somewhere and be able to change it Jan 20 09:55:21 which is where i realized that osx totally sucked ass.. the underlying stuff is good.. but the gui itself should have produced fired and murdered apple developers Jan 20 09:55:55 * Macer points at the 3rd party software requirement for keeping osx out of sleep mode Jan 20 09:56:03 i mean.. come on! :) Jan 20 09:56:05 yup, it's apple's way or the highway Jan 20 09:56:09 morning johnx Jan 20 09:56:14 mornin' Stskeeps Jan 20 09:56:24 reading the mer 0.6 thread :) Jan 20 09:56:52 johnx: http://jaiku.com/channel/merbuilder <- if it bombs on armel-sb, it will continue to armel native, and show a straightjacket if it completed natively Jan 20 09:57:18 as in, not satisfactory (it took 19793s to compile libvte), but it worked Jan 20 09:57:58 also, build-x86 packagename for the arch-indep packages from now on Jan 20 09:58:14 so it doesn't try to take in the huge machinery for an 'all' package ;) Jan 20 09:58:29 hmm, I was thinking it might be good to *not* fall back on native sometimes. any thought on making it part of the build command? Jan 20 09:58:51 johnx: yeah, but that complicates builder :P Jan 20 09:58:57 i'll look at it later Jan 20 09:59:01 we just need some python packages atm Jan 20 09:59:03 aaah, don't worry then Jan 20 09:59:20 well.. let me get back to boston legal Jan 20 09:59:23 oh btw, we solved the start-hildon chroot xephyr thing Jan 20 09:59:35 ah, what was the trick? Jan 20 09:59:48 johnx: mount --bind /tmp/.X11-unix instead of /tmp Jan 20 09:59:55 and /etc/init.d/dbus start inside chroot Jan 20 10:00:17 this show cracks me up Jan 20 10:00:17 if /tmp is mounted, it conflicts with system dbus Jan 20 10:00:20 good deal Jan 20 10:02:04 anyways, I've got to get ready for work. I'm about halfway through re-working some of first-boot wizard to set passwords, ask about turning on swap (and potentially copy over ssh keys or regenerate new ones) Jan 20 10:02:12 alright Jan 20 10:02:23 there seems to be trouble with N810 and HIM, i'm not sure why Jan 20 10:02:28 quark is on boston legal Jan 20 10:02:49 7 of 9 was on it in an earlier epsiode... i don't think she is too hot as a normal person Jan 20 10:02:54 johnx: i'll get meiz poking at it later Jan 20 10:02:58 without the skin tight uniform and eye implant Jan 20 10:03:28 Macer: it's easy to excite nerds. Jan 20 10:03:30 what kind of issue? keymap? X11 crash? Jan 20 10:03:48 Stskeeps: haha.. i guess .. she was absolutely hot in voyager Jan 20 10:03:53 back later Jan 20 10:04:11 johnx: no typing Jan 20 10:04:12 but then again she always had her hair up and again... the skin tight uniform Jan 20 10:04:32 are you talking about chakotey again :P Jan 20 10:04:49 well. i believe at the end of voyager she was mrs chakotey Jan 20 10:05:07 mmmmmmmmmm 7 of 9 goodness Jan 20 10:05:14 i still maintain allison hannigan was the hottest actress, but that's just me.. Jan 20 10:05:14 :P Jan 20 10:05:20 she had more of a dirty librarian look in voyager Jan 20 10:05:23 no, its not Jan 20 10:05:24 allison hannigan? Jan 20 10:05:46 girl who played willow in buffy and flute girl in american pie :P Jan 20 10:05:58 the redhead? Jan 20 10:06:08 yeah Jan 20 10:06:28 hm... i dunno about that.. but i guess everybody has their taste Jan 20 10:06:47 i couldn't believe how hot laura prepon was from that 70s show Jan 20 10:06:56 until i saw her in maxim or something Jan 20 10:07:11 i dunno, before my time Jan 20 10:07:21 heh Jan 20 10:08:24 http://images.askmen.com/galleries/actress/alyson-hannigan/pictures/alyson-hannigan-picture-1.jpg Jan 20 10:08:28 she looks pretty good there Jan 20 10:08:38 i had an epic battle (of my own doing last night) with fremantle sdk and gcc4 :'( Jan 20 10:08:51 macer dont tease i cant ogle actual images at work Jan 20 10:09:02 why not? Jan 20 10:09:04 lcuk: i was going to stop you but i thought the lesson might be valuable Jan 20 10:09:04 :P Jan 20 10:09:14 that's just messed up Stskeeps Jan 20 10:09:18 heh Jan 20 10:09:25 also, i was half-asleep Jan 20 10:09:27 no, i learnt a lot about apt i think Jan 20 10:09:38 he just wanted you to lose all your hair before him Jan 20 10:10:23 macer, tbh i wasnt that bothered, the worst that wouldv happened would be a reflash - and a side effect of that is that i would document the process of getting gcc and normal sdk directly on device :) Jan 20 10:10:48 http://www.wallpaperbase.com/wallpapers/celebs/alysonhannigan/alyson_hannigan_7.jpg Jan 20 10:10:58 i keep waiting for an excuse but spit feathers at actually having to spend time setting up rather than coding Jan 20 10:11:17 she is pretty cute Jan 20 10:11:17 * lcuk is pretty sure hes seen almost ever alyson hannigan picture ever taken Jan 20 10:12:08 lcuk: besides that mer has new gcc and sqlite :P Jan 20 10:13:08 yeah, well fremantle does, there was a couple of functions i wanted and were only in latest, i did some modifications to code and just used the old one (after repairing everything and sorting out EABI issues and reforcing updates and downgrades and all kinds of brainfck Jan 20 10:13:29 hehe Jan 20 10:13:43 it works really nicely i just need import routines and i can do some actual tests on calendar/timekeeping Jan 20 10:14:00 `/j #gpe Jan 20 10:14:12 anyway, bbl Jan 20 10:18:31 morning meiz Jan 20 10:18:48 Meiz_n810: can you at some point take 0.6 image, test if the keyboard works in the first boot wizard, and if HIM works? Jan 20 10:19:15 i have tested it already, both were working Jan 20 10:19:18 odd Jan 20 10:19:31 * Meiz_n810 installed 0.6 yesterday Jan 20 10:19:55 Stskeeps: what's odd? Jan 20 10:20:06 neatojones had issues with it, so :P Jan 20 10:20:24 i should really get a n810 at work to test on.. Jan 20 10:20:30 the jffs2 image? Jan 20 10:20:38 no, he tested installer + tar.gz too so Jan 20 10:20:46 okay Jan 20 10:22:27 i didn't use installer btw. just manually unpacked the tar.gz Jan 20 10:22:27 hm Jan 20 10:25:16 Stskeeps: i have once had same problem. (h-i-m not coming up) Jan 20 10:25:28 but i am not sure if i used the installer Jan 20 10:25:49 we'll see i guess Jan 20 10:26:27 i guess it might be useful to try and make testcase stuff at some point, heh Jan 20 10:31:42 wow Jan 20 10:31:48 now neelix is on boston legal Jan 20 10:31:55 so far they have almost had the entire voyager cast haha Jan 20 10:33:41 boston legal is actually just a time traveller episode of voyager Jan 20 10:33:49 hahaha Jan 20 10:34:05 soon tuvok is going to teleport into court Jan 20 10:34:35 i thought one of the funniest moments was when william shatner opened his cell phone and it made that old school communicator noise from the capt kirk days Jan 20 10:35:45 so boston legal is a comedy? Jan 20 10:37:50 if you're a star trek fan, it is, seemingily :P Jan 20 10:39:09 * Stskeeps pokes garage svn viewer with a stick Jan 20 10:53:49 eh. Jan 20 10:53:50 * garage_svn_viewe pokes stskeeps with a bigger stick Jan 20 10:54:00 knew that was coming Jan 20 10:54:00 :P Jan 20 10:54:06 :D Jan 20 11:14:04 Morning, all Jan 20 11:15:48 gimme the source Jan 20 11:16:08 Stskeeps, http://repository.mer.tspre.org/pool/main/x/xorg-server-xomap/ no sources :-/ what did you build that from? Jan 20 11:16:19 slonopotamus: you don't want to build that one Jan 20 11:16:28 i'm throwing it out soon so Jan 20 11:16:34 use xf86-video-omfab Jan 20 11:16:35 omapfb Jan 20 11:16:51 Stskeeps, with what xserver? Jan 20 11:17:12 Stskeeps, vanilla xorg? Jan 20 11:18:10 yes Jan 20 11:18:22 Any ideas what the initial price of the OMAP3 Nokia tablet will be? Jan 20 11:18:48 nop Jan 20 11:19:39 Stskeeps, hm... what about memory consumption? have you tried that? Jan 20 11:19:44 luke, what you can afford + some Jan 20 11:19:48 :D Jan 20 11:20:27 slonopotamus: it's an xorg + a smallish driver Jan 20 11:20:28 :P Jan 20 11:21:02 Stskeeps, i know. i'm worried of xorg Jan 20 11:21:11 hmm... worried with? Jan 20 11:21:15 worried by? Jan 20 11:21:25 slonopotamus: it's not bad compared to the advantages we get from it Jan 20 11:22:15 Stskeeps, maemo Xomap = Xorg + omapfb? Jan 20 11:22:52 no, xomap is a kdrive version Jan 20 11:22:58 they merged xorg and kdrive in latest versions Jan 20 11:23:09 inz: what I can afford is probably capped at $200 for the moment ☺ Jan 20 11:23:37 omg. Jan 20 11:23:47 i can build xorg-server with USE="kdrive" :) Jan 20 11:23:53 luke-jr: save 100$ up a month and you'll have the money for it when it comes up :) Jan 20 11:23:53 will that be xorg or kdrive? :) Jan 20 11:23:57 no clue Jan 20 11:23:57 luke-jr: My guess is that that is not enough.. Jan 20 11:24:27 xorg can be ./configure'd with --with-kdrive Jan 20 11:24:47 Stskeeps: I could, but I'd like to compare and see if it's worth the waiting/saving or if I should just grab a N810 :þ Jan 20 11:24:58 luke-jr: n800's are dead cheap too these days Jan 20 11:25:38 n800 lacks a keyboard though Jan 20 11:26:14 and tbh, even the N810's benefit is basically 64 MB more RAM Jan 20 11:26:20 eh Jan 20 11:26:20 than my Zaurus SL-C760 Jan 20 11:26:25 ah Jan 20 11:26:33 and a working battery Jan 20 11:27:26 luke-jr, uh? n810 has more ram? Jan 20 11:27:34 slonopotamus: than a zaurus Jan 20 11:27:40 ah Jan 20 11:28:26 if N900 adds cell internet and 256 MB RAM, it'd def be worth saving/waiting for Jan 20 11:28:30 otherwise, probably not Jan 20 11:28:50 luke-jr: it definately adds cell internet Jan 20 11:29:01 anyone know of a notification daemon that will allow me to click-to-dismiss? Jan 20 11:29:19 i see 6 zaurus's Jan 20 11:29:21 Wooly: you can always hack the notifications Jan 20 11:29:39 that would be the last resort Jan 20 11:30:00 also the best probably Jan 20 11:30:06 the notification time-out uses a "simulate close" function, which I think I could link to a mouse-event Jan 20 11:30:08 slonopotamus: SL-C760/860 is what I have, and quite nice Jan 20 11:30:34 i just wanted to be sure that no-one had done it already Jan 20 11:30:39 luke-jr: http://maemo.org/community/council/community_highlights_for_december_2008-part_i-january_2009-part_ii/ Jan 20 11:30:43 curent rumours Jan 20 11:30:43 +r Jan 20 11:32:54 hildon, gpe, qtopia... pick one :) Jan 20 11:33:48 well, the Qtopia back in Zaurus era sucked :/ Jan 20 11:33:56 ♡ Qt tho Jan 20 11:35:12 I wonder why nobody seems to care to make clamshells anymore Jan 20 11:35:29 seems the obvious solution to protect from scratches and such, rather than a case Jan 20 11:35:30 they waste space Jan 20 11:35:49 good devices don't need protecting from scratches and such Jan 20 11:37:09 it has to be rather hard safire not to crack when stuck between other things in a bag Jan 20 11:37:20 or damage the touchscreen part Jan 20 11:37:29 digitiser Jan 20 11:42:46 My phone now likes to pull random text messages out from 6 months ago and notify me of them now. . . . Jan 20 11:44:37 ghost in the machine eh Jan 20 11:44:41 glass: anything with a LCD needs protection from scratches Jan 20 11:45:19 StsN800, it's rather unnerving. Jan 20 11:45:49 StsN800, especially when one of them was from my old girlfriend. <_< Jan 20 11:47:11 Booty call? :) Jan 20 11:47:45 back 2 years when my mom died i sent a msg to my not-yet-gf that something bad happened and we couldn't meet up wednesday.. she got told by one of my friends, so she was confused when the message i sent came delayed a week later, heh Jan 20 11:48:09 stupid texting systems at times Jan 20 11:50:10 a week? that's rather bad Jan 20 11:50:20 if the "N900" has cell internet, any reason i couldn't use VoIP over that for my normal phone use? ;) Jan 20 11:50:29 X-Fade, sadly, no. :P Jan 20 11:50:42 luke-jr: well some nokias phones do voip over 3g too.. Jan 20 11:50:53 luke-jr, no. Jan 20 11:51:10 luke-jr, any limitation wont be software-side anyway. Jan 20 11:51:52 boston legal just got a little far fetched with the whole midget thing Jan 20 11:52:14 although alan shore does seem to be getting more funny Jan 20 11:53:34 ☺ Jan 20 11:53:48 so I guess the big question is how much the service costs >_< Jan 20 11:53:53 ye Jan 20 11:53:57 *yep Jan 20 11:54:12 and whether the providers won't throttle/firewall voip Jan 20 11:54:31 Or even have a clause in their contract ;) Jan 20 11:54:43 luke-jr, depends greatly on your provider. Jan 20 11:54:57 I'm fairly certain it'll be a $30-a-month data-only plan from AT&T here in the States. Jan 20 11:55:21 that's about as much as i pay for 20MBit adsl here Jan 20 11:57:50 your dsl goes that fast? Jan 20 11:58:05 what ever happened to sdsl? :) Jan 20 11:58:06 well, mine does not, as i'm too far from the exchange Jan 20 11:58:13 StsN800, you're going to have to establish a less real-time discussion place if you want to get fanoush involved, apparently. :P Jan 20 11:58:17 i doubt thre are many that do go that fast Jan 20 11:58:21 but it's the full-out subscription Jan 20 11:58:24 Macer: Mine does. Jan 20 11:58:28 16MBit is really doable Jan 20 11:58:48 i had 12+MBit for a while on 3600m from the exchange even, now i have 8MBit Jan 20 11:59:18 lol Jan 20 11:59:53 the cable provider here is going to do 30MBit in a short while Jan 20 11:59:59 and up to 80MBit in a year Jan 20 12:00:17 so i'm thinking about switching isp's even Jan 20 12:00:39 GeneralAntilles: how about Sprint? tbh, it seems the other providers have poor coverage Jan 20 12:02:12 GeneralAntilles, yeah i know - wanted to establish a small core of people here first Jan 20 12:02:40 luke-jr, Verizon has the best overall coverage in the US. Jan 20 12:03:02 do they? Jan 20 12:03:11 luke-jr, but it's highly region-depenent. Jan 20 12:03:18 Some providers are better in certain areas than others. Jan 20 12:03:39 with Sprint, I mostly always have full 3 bars, and only lose service inside very insulated buildings or the trek from Omaha to Kansas City where there's literally nothing ;p Jan 20 12:03:45 Nextel tended to have much better coverage in the South than the North for instance (before the Sprint merger). Jan 20 12:03:52 GeneralAntilles, i'll set up mailing list on mer garage Jan 20 12:04:10 luke-jr, bars don't necessarily translate well to data coverage. Jan 20 12:04:18 hm Jan 20 12:05:15 would be neat if it supported cell phone stuff too, so I could have my Asterisk box failover to that link if the data was poor Jan 20 12:05:54 heh, a voip to cell phone switchbox on your n900 Jan 20 12:05:56 Meh Jan 20 12:06:05 Real cellular voice brings with it too many evils. Jan 20 12:06:15 It's not something you can just blithely add to a device. Jan 20 12:06:29 o? Jan 20 12:07:37 luke-jr, there are many more regulatory and carrier requirements to consider when you add cellular. Jan 20 12:07:55 luke-jr, in the end, I'm fairly certain it what destroy what makes Maemo Maemo. Jan 20 12:07:56 GeneralAntilles: true Jan 20 12:08:13 better hook it up to your favourite phone Jan 20 12:08:14 Just look at how locked-down Android is. Jan 20 12:08:25 GeneralAntilles: otoh, there's openmoko Jan 20 12:08:40 aquatix, yes, well, and look where they are. ;) Jan 20 12:08:53 aquatix: I don't want a separate phone Jan 20 12:08:56 armv4 Jan 20 12:09:06 luke-jr, you really do. :P Jan 20 12:09:13 luke-jr: i can imagine Jan 20 12:09:16 You don't want to be carrying your tablet around with you everywhere. Jan 20 12:09:26 but atm i think it's the best option Jan 20 12:09:36 morning everyone Jan 20 12:09:38 Small and simple phone + tablet :D Jan 20 12:09:46 and besides, a tablet is just a tad too large to lug around everywhere imho Jan 20 12:09:46 ^ Jan 20 12:09:51 X-Fade: yeah Jan 20 12:09:55 GeneralAntilles: no I don't Jan 20 12:10:01 * aquatix even has a smallish smartphone with it Jan 20 12:10:03 and too expensive to risk taking to a party where you're likely to be dropped in a pool. Jan 20 12:10:06 luke-jr: :) Jan 20 12:10:07 the entire purpose of a tablet is to carry it everywhere Jan 20 12:10:17 luke-jr, hardly. Jan 20 12:10:23 It's to carry ALMOST everywhere. Jan 20 12:10:26 luke-jr: and then drop it in a glass of beer? ;) Jan 20 12:10:27 otherwise I'd just bring my laptop Jan 20 12:10:32 lardman|gone: Almost anywhere, sure ;) Jan 20 12:10:34 aquatix: I don't drink. Jan 20 12:10:39 or in the toilet Jan 20 12:10:55 Drinking is a bad place to bring your tablet. :P Jan 20 12:11:19 GeneralAntilles: or anything electronic :) Jan 20 12:11:31 my current cell phone is 5 years old Jan 20 12:11:36 I don't have those kind of problems. Jan 20 12:11:38 * aquatix almost drowned his smartphone last FOSDEM's beer event Jan 20 12:11:46 luke-jr: me neither Jan 20 12:12:10 luke-jr: but imho, a tablet is a tad too large to use as phone Jan 20 12:12:15 aquatix, well, except for that cheap phone X-Fade's talking about. ;) Jan 20 12:12:22 luke-jr: or did you want to use a head piece with it Jan 20 12:12:22 Side talkin'! Jan 20 12:12:28 GeneralAntilles: :) Jan 20 12:12:34 side talking-- Jan 20 12:12:35 * X-Fade 's N95 got a nice beer shower when Kees kicked a beer glass at LinuxTag ;) Jan 20 12:12:37 aquatix: I have a headset for my Zaurus ;) Jan 20 12:12:42 X-Fade: fun Jan 20 12:12:44 would it be compatible? Jan 20 12:12:53 luke-jr: wired or wireless? Jan 20 12:12:57 wired Jan 20 12:13:05 btw, nokia has a wired headpiece included even Jan 20 12:13:06 it uses Left for mic, Right for speaker Jan 20 12:13:07 It survived though.. Jan 20 12:13:07 I think Jan 20 12:13:10 or vice-versa Jan 20 12:13:21 and my jabra bluetooth one works well with it too Jan 20 12:13:35 X-Fade: heh, nice Jan 20 12:13:47 * aquatix is looking at the Nokia N97 and the Palm Pre as new phones Jan 20 12:14:05 Ha Jan 20 12:14:07 Expensive. Jan 20 12:14:12 yep Jan 20 12:14:23 but i like my PIM in my pocket Jan 20 12:14:32 preferably with touchscreen and qwerty Jan 20 12:14:41 a maemo phone would be awesome too Jan 20 12:14:41 I've almost given up on PIM, period, tbh Jan 20 12:14:50 * aquatix uses it daily Jan 20 12:15:03 the UIQ3/symbian one works fine for me Jan 20 12:15:07 I don't want to use anything GTK :/ Jan 20 12:15:12 even syncs nicely with ScheduleWorld Jan 20 12:15:12 hola Jan 20 12:15:15 luke-jr: eh? Jan 20 12:15:23 PIM is personal information manager in general Jan 20 12:15:26 yeah Jan 20 12:15:33 and KDE 4's PIM totally sucks Jan 20 12:15:42 ah Jan 20 12:15:54 myeah, i use evolution now and then with scheduleworld Jan 20 12:16:02 but generally just use my phone for it Jan 20 12:16:05 evolution is GTK ;) Jan 20 12:16:11 i know Jan 20 12:16:16 i've standardised on gtk Jan 20 12:16:24 aquatix: we plan to make freerunner a maemophone ;P Jan 20 12:16:31 Stskeeps: that's cool Jan 20 12:16:36 but freerunner sucks :) Jan 20 12:16:40 lol Jan 20 12:16:42 if we can get ubuntu compiled for armv4t :P Jan 20 12:16:44 i want a phone that lasts the day ;) Jan 20 12:16:56 and has a keyboard to boot Jan 20 12:17:00 Stskeeps: :) Jan 20 12:17:05 eh Jan 20 12:17:09 Stskeeps: can't you use debian instead? Jan 20 12:17:21 my cell lasts a day Jan 20 12:17:26 as long as I leave it on the charger Jan 20 12:17:30 heh Jan 20 12:17:30 aquatix: possibly, but there are some problems with package name differences Jan 20 12:17:33 mine almost a week Jan 20 12:17:43 Stskeeps: ah Jan 20 12:19:30 it'd be interesting to have a nokia n97 with 800x480 screen and maemo Jan 20 12:19:45 but that's not going to happen i guess Jan 20 12:20:09 aquatix: My guess is that if we really make Maemo rock, that is only a logical step.. Jan 20 12:20:17 true Jan 20 12:20:29 but nokia has other plans i think Jan 20 12:20:42 something to do with an open source symbian and qt Jan 20 12:20:57 * GeneralAntilles wonders idly if anybody ever remix Jive Talking to Side Talking. Jan 20 12:22:15 so what's the current status of a 100% Free N810 firmware? Jan 20 12:24:08 luke-jr: it won't be 100% free because we need some things like wifi firmware, bluetooth firmware, battery handling Jan 20 12:24:12 but everything relevant.. Jan 20 12:24:16 hey i have the vdi image running on virtualbox how can i open a terminal in mer to run whatever apps that it has Jan 20 12:24:18 Internet, at last! Jan 20 12:24:24 firmware aside for now Jan 20 12:24:36 wazd! Jan 20 12:24:38 wtf does battery handling have to do with it? Jan 20 12:24:43 luke-jr: BME Jan 20 12:24:47 … Jan 20 12:24:49 closed source, liability Jan 20 12:24:52 ? Jan 20 12:24:53 luke-jr: It won't charge for example ;) Jan 20 12:25:02 you can make a battery explode with an open source version of it, so Jan 20 12:25:02 luke-jr: Charging is software controlled. Jan 20 12:25:03 :P Jan 20 12:25:19 Stskeeps: you can make a battery explode with a closed source version of it too Jan 20 12:25:27 or without any software for that matter Jan 20 12:25:29 just throw it in a fire Jan 20 12:25:33 Stskeeps: shush, don't make the CIA think you can make an OSS bomb Jan 20 12:25:45 luke-jr: Yes, but then Nokia is liable. Jan 20 12:25:48 why? Jan 20 12:25:52 microsoft can make a closed source bomb, why cant we :D Jan 20 12:25:57 ghehe Jan 20 12:26:08 If you get injured by their product? Jan 20 12:26:09 or do you doubt windows ME was a WMD? Jan 20 12:26:15 Lawyers will love that one ;) Jan 20 12:26:20 lcuk: it was a WMF Jan 20 12:26:28 luke-jr, because lawyers and legislators are silly people. Jan 20 12:26:37 opengeekv2: ctrl-alt-f1 is a good start Jan 20 12:26:41 and log in as root/rootme Jan 20 12:26:42 X-Fade: you can modify a binary to be bad Jan 20 12:26:46 Stskeeps: so, having root access and doing some reverse engineering, someone can explode battery? Jan 20 12:26:51 hell: yes, basically Jan 20 12:26:58 but then it's your own fault Jan 20 12:27:03 luke-jr: Sure, but modify equals warranty loss. Jan 20 12:27:05 Stskeeps: same as if you modify source Jan 20 12:27:11 x-fade to lighten the mood, i think i can do a really nice practical thing with the multitouch :) shall see in the coming weeks Jan 20 12:27:20 X-Fade: so modify source = warranty loss too Jan 20 12:27:24 lcuk: Do tell :) Jan 20 12:27:25 luke-jr: also there's probably a bunch of patents regarding power saving and trade secrets Jan 20 12:27:27 Stskeeps: i thnk, every user of N810 have rootsh installed Jan 20 12:27:27 yes nut when i make this the host goes to the terminal Jan 20 12:27:30 so Jan 20 12:27:31 not the guest Jan 20 12:27:32 i don't blame nokia Jan 20 12:27:40 hell, I think that's BS. :) Jan 20 12:27:45 Stskeeps: patents are something to blame for Jan 20 12:27:55 opengeekv2: hmm, you can lock the keyboard to there i think Jan 20 12:28:30 i'll find it don't worry Jan 20 12:28:35 Stskeeps: so battery charging is usermode? Jan 20 12:28:56 anyway. i've been knee deep in this firmware stuff for quite a while, no, 100% open firmware isn't going to happen that easily, 95% where 5% is wifi firmware, bluetooth firmware, hw interfacing (battery), is just as bad as on a typical ubuntu Jan 20 12:29:00 :P Jan 20 12:29:11 I don't use Ubuntu. Jan 20 12:29:14 i think, there are a lot of hardware, reventing explode, zeners, r somethng like this. Jan 20 12:29:21 I use Gentoo with a draconian ACCEPT_LICENSE value Jan 20 12:29:28 *preventing Jan 20 12:29:28 what we can -hope- for, is the permission to redistribute that part Jan 20 12:29:31 luke-jr: you use wifi? Jan 20 12:29:43 aquatix: on my laptop, ath5k Jan 20 12:29:54 actually, replacement laptop has some annoying intel wifi Jan 20 12:29:55 does that use a firmware blob? Jan 20 12:29:59 opengeekv2: ok, I saw your mockups Jan 20 12:30:06 aquatix: I already said firmware aside. ;) Jan 20 12:30:15 hypocrite ;) Jan 20 12:30:18 not at all Jan 20 12:30:25 wazd: and what do you thing about it Jan 20 12:30:26 ? Jan 20 12:30:28 the hardware level just is not winnable yet Jan 20 12:30:29 the nokia stuff is just as much firmware as the rest, so :P Jan 20 12:30:31 luke-jr, at the end of the day, to make progress you have to make concessions. Jan 20 12:30:32 opengeekv2: first of all you can move dropdown menu to the left Jan 20 12:30:47 luke-jr, license zealotry tends, mostly, to drive people away and halt any possible progress. Jan 20 12:30:54 opengeekv2: so right border of menu will match right order of icon Jan 20 12:31:03 Stskeeps: kernel modules are not firmware/hardware, and in the case of Linux, illegal if not GPL compatible Jan 20 12:31:21 I'm more concerned if Nokia violates the copyrights on Linux, than if they have "trade sekrets" and patents. Jan 20 12:31:21 luke-jr: we have open wifi now. Jan 20 12:31:25 -illegal Jan 20 12:31:34 oh i dont understand Jan 20 12:31:43 my english is awful Jan 20 12:32:15 opengeekv2, i saw your mockups as well :) happy to see you are looking beyond the first couple of items Jan 20 12:32:35 neat, stlc45xx development is going on still Jan 20 12:32:38 opengeekv2: And I like horizonal oriented menu idea Jan 20 12:32:42 Stskeeps: yes, i saw that Jan 20 12:32:47 opengeekv2: with no title :) Jan 20 12:33:03 so this battery crap-- what exactly is it? Jan 20 12:33:05 luke-jr, Nokia isn't violating any copyrights. Jan 20 12:33:08 why tittle annoies you? Jan 20 12:33:20 is it a kernel module, so someone can sue Nokia over it? Jan 20 12:33:22 luke-jr: it's a binary running in userspace speaking to the tahvo and retu chips Jan 20 12:33:26 meh Jan 20 12:33:27 lol, opengeekv2 don't mention titles or microsoft around wazd Jan 20 12:33:29 hes "touchy" Jan 20 12:33:31 luke-jr, stop being silly. Jan 20 12:33:35 opengeekv2: not sure if it's easier to navigate that way though Jan 20 12:33:41 GeneralAntilles: what 'BS' does mean? Jan 20 12:33:43 Stskeeps: can it be sandboxed? :/ Jan 20 12:33:44 luke-jr: over perfectly sane and open kernel interfaces :) Jan 20 12:33:48 hell, bullshit. Jan 20 12:33:51 opengeekv2: cause title is useless. forget bout it for god sake) Jan 20 12:33:55 . Jan 20 12:33:59 hell, most tablet users do not use rootsh. Jan 20 12:34:08 luke-jr: no clue. i'm personally not touching BME as i don't want to blow up my tablet :) Jan 20 12:34:15 hell, Nokia's sold close to or over a million tablets. Jan 20 12:34:36 luke-jr: and i'm perfectly fine with one or two binary blobs in my system Jan 20 12:34:38 hell, rootsh has 15,000 downloads http://maemo.org/downloads/product/OS2008/rootsh/ Jan 20 12:34:51 opengeekv2: the bad thing bout horizonal menu is scrilling Jan 20 12:34:52 heh GeneralAntilles how do you manage to charge your 499282 tablets? Jan 20 12:34:56 GeneralAntilles: they just reboot it, when pppd hangs up Jan 20 12:34:56 because it is better than having a completely locked down system like let's say, t-mobile G1 Jan 20 12:34:58 scrolling* Jan 20 12:35:00 why Jan 20 12:35:03 ? Jan 20 12:35:05 where you have to pay friggen 300$ and 25$ to get a open version Jan 20 12:35:19 lcuk, I've got a Mr. Fussion. Jan 20 12:35:20 Stskeeps: and a shitload for shippng Jan 20 12:35:30 :wazd, technically whats wrong with horiz scrolling Jan 20 12:35:32 Stskeeps: i suspect g1's price is around 600 real money Jan 20 12:35:41 canola does it in its picture viewer to great effect Jan 20 12:35:42 GeneralAntilles: so, as i understand, if you switch to rd mode, no rootsh needed. Jan 20 12:35:50 Stskeeps: port Linux to it? Jan 20 12:36:08 hell, or modify the gainroot script. Jan 20 12:36:16 Stskeeps, g1 is locked down? i thought it was a linux device? Jan 20 12:36:18 600 would put it in similar place as Nokia N95/N96's and iPhone's "real money" price Jan 20 12:36:23 hell, but I'm not sure how that's relevant to your claim that most tablet users are using rootsh. Jan 20 12:36:24 lcuk, opengeekv2: you can't fit much items in a row Jan 20 12:36:25 lcuk: linux doesn't meant not locked down Jan 20 12:36:26 or is this one of those fake linux devices Jan 20 12:36:28 luke-jr: G1 firmware is locked unless you get a developer key and a special version of it Jan 20 12:36:33 lcuk: tivo, as an example.. Jan 20 12:36:35 wazd, think outside the box :) Jan 20 12:36:42 lcuk: plenty of motos run linux underneath, totally locked from the user, too Jan 20 12:36:42 Stskeeps: JTAG? Jan 20 12:36:46 lcuk, opengeekv2: so you'll always have to scroll Jan 20 12:36:47 lcuk: linux is just deep down in there Jan 20 12:36:48 also - PLEASE consider rotation in mer Jan 20 12:36:56 i dont want to always be stuck in landscape Jan 20 12:36:58 GeneralAntilles: yeah, most of Linux users, i think, yes. Jan 20 12:37:01 lcuk: android only provides that java-like environment Jan 20 12:37:04 Hello Jan 20 12:37:08 luke-jr: and it's android, the supposedly very open firmware Jan 20 12:37:10 hey AndrewFBlack Jan 20 12:37:11 what do yoi mean with scroll? Jan 20 12:37:13 hell, all tablet users are Linux users, arguably. Jan 20 12:37:15 lcuk: in portrait mode it's even worse Jan 20 12:37:18 hell, still don't see your point. Jan 20 12:37:26 so, it's interesting question for vote. Jan 20 12:37:37 rotation... heh... look at squeak. they rotate windows for arbitrary angle Jan 20 12:37:41 Stskeeps: JTAG? Jan 20 12:37:45 opengeekv2: try to fit in a row Maemo Mapper menu Jan 20 12:37:48 wazd, slonopotamus :) Jan 20 12:37:49 luke-jr: find a jtag on your g1, sure :P Jan 20 12:37:51 -wazd Jan 20 12:37:58 let me see Jan 20 12:37:58 i'm off. Jan 20 12:38:02 Stskeeps: dunno what a G1 is :þ Jan 20 12:38:06 luke-jr: .. Jan 20 12:38:13 my experience porting Linux is with cable modems Jan 20 12:38:14 :þ Jan 20 12:38:18 * lcuk wants a fast smalltalk/squeek/hypercard implementation on device Jan 20 12:38:20 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Google_phone Jan 20 12:38:30 luke-jr: G1 is the google android phone by HTC Jan 20 12:38:44 iseee Jan 20 12:38:47 http://www.user.fh-stralsund.de/~twenge/Medien_3/squeak/Screen_Shots/Basic/SqRules.gif Jan 20 12:38:56 that IS rotation :) Jan 20 12:38:57 that they sell as the devphone too, the devphone is unlocked but like said, not really cheap Jan 20 12:39:28 do you do actual dev on the devphone? Jan 20 12:39:43 -all that space from leaning my jacket potato box on the keyboard Jan 20 12:39:44 lcuk: me? no, but it's the unlocked version of g1 Jan 20 12:39:48 GeneralAntilles: i'm novice in maemo and i'm missing some of history moments, so unprotected root is one of they. Jan 20 12:40:00 but have you sen tha the menu apearing in the middle is not a good thing no? Jan 20 12:40:15 glass cant you just install apps onto it developed in the emulator ? like we do with scratchbox Jan 20 12:40:34 lcuk: yea sure, but.. android apps run in a vm Jan 20 12:40:45 lcuk: javalike vm, so it's not really different to say a sidekick for the developer Jan 20 12:40:48 yeah Jan 20 12:40:58 lcuk: or a blackberry, so the openness is just empty words from google Jan 20 12:41:00 so why do you explicitely need a dev version Jan 20 12:41:06 opengeekv2: you can move initial menu to the left, so it's right border will align to button's right border Jan 20 12:41:13 hm Jan 20 12:41:19 is the dev version actually Free? Jan 20 12:41:26 as in beer Jan 20 12:41:32 luke-jr: free as in you end up paying 500-700$ for it Jan 20 12:41:33 very very expensive beer Jan 20 12:41:38 not gratis, Free Jan 20 12:41:42 yes Jan 20 12:41:47 i like it Jan 20 12:41:47 not really Free either Jan 20 12:41:58 william wallis free Jan 20 12:42:04 you need to join googles dev program to get it Jan 20 12:42:15 and that involves a contract or two with them, thats not Free Jan 20 12:42:17 http://bsd.tspre.org/~stskeeps/pymer.png <- Python Hildon + Python OSSO on Mer. Jan 20 12:42:27 (armel version is building as we speak) Jan 20 12:42:30 glass, but once you have it can you redistribute it ala gpl Jan 20 12:42:45 or is the ide not gpl? Jan 20 12:42:48 hmmmm Jan 20 12:42:54 Stskeeps: whoa, scary, i read `paris hilton' instead of `python hildon' Jan 20 12:42:59 lcuk: well, i dunno what legal foo they got, but that australian dude who was going to put out an android phone got silenced pretty well by google Jan 20 12:43:03 aquatix: you've been watching too much TV Jan 20 12:43:10 Stskeeps: no, too much interwebs Jan 20 12:43:20 G1 sounds like a good legal case for the GPL ☺ Jan 20 12:43:24 wazd: but i it is vertical ter is no much rpoblem Jan 20 12:43:26 lcuk: and the google parts, like maps and stuff like that is google properiaty and you'd need licenses from google to include it Jan 20 12:43:31 glass, dunno i do all my code on n8x0 for now Jan 20 12:43:31 luke-jr: bring it Jan 20 12:43:34 in theory, it could probably be argued the signing key is source code Jan 20 12:43:49 luke-jr: i'm willing to bet it's GPLv2 all the way. Jan 20 12:43:53 busybox, linux Jan 20 12:43:53 yeah Jan 20 12:43:55 glass, the map imagery is different to source code Jan 20 12:44:03 lcuk: ..not just the imagery Jan 20 12:44:10 Stskeeps: that link suggests Apache license for a lot Jan 20 12:44:30 luke-jr: and suing Google for license problems when they just open sourced a friggen mobile OS.. Jan 20 12:44:40 ok.. teh mother having sex with the son in boston legal was disturbing Jan 20 12:44:43 lcuk: point being google is keeping a very tight leash on it despite they launched it as 'open' Jan 20 12:44:44 that's bad press and just shows people how gnubieish the gpl people really are Jan 20 12:44:56 bbl Jan 20 12:45:17 Stskeeps: open source is irrelevant if you can't even modify it Jan 20 12:45:20 lcuk: like, i'm still waiting for a real non google non oper phone to appear, for the platform to be intresting for me Jan 20 12:45:27 luke-jr: open source has nothing to do with that Jan 20 12:45:38 glass moko Jan 20 12:45:40 open source has to deal with the ability to view what your computer is doing Jan 20 12:45:43 I use the word 'Free' instead of 'open' for a reason Jan 20 12:45:53 lcuk: moko is irrelevant for commercial dev.. Jan 20 12:45:54 wazd: this way |Route Track Maps| Show Auto-Center Full Screen GPS .... (two arrows down and make the rest of the menu apperaring Jan 20 12:45:56 is the open moko not open? Jan 20 12:45:59 Stskeeps: Free software is about having the freedom to do what you like with your software. Jan 20 12:46:03 glass, but its an open phone Jan 20 12:46:27 lcuk: i don't want an open phone, i want a phone with open apis and sw distribution.. Jan 20 12:46:36 Goddamnit, Stskeeps, when do I get a time machine so I can warp ahead 6 months? :( Jan 20 12:47:03 lcuk: i'd love to develope for android if it got relevant and this way it'll never get to that since google isn't devs release the phones Jan 20 12:47:06 GeneralAntilles: it's called a coma Jan 20 12:47:08 glass, how lopng have you been waiting? Jan 20 12:47:22 Stskeeps, did you ever see that episode of South Park? ;) Jan 20 12:47:27 yes, of course :P Jan 20 12:47:40 lcuk: waiting? i'm not waiting per se, that would be stupid.. i'm a hired mobile dev guy Jan 20 12:47:48 i had no idea Jan 20 12:48:01 re bme, I wonder if without it you only lose the reporting, or if the bme daemon actually controls things (i.e. without it -> boom) Jan 20 12:48:16 GeneralAntilles: so, what you would do in summer?) Anti-crisis deal, "no food, no money, jump to summer right now"?) Jan 20 12:48:19 the southpark episode about scientology are amazing Jan 20 12:48:27 ok, so you are already used to working in the garden the target provides, be it iphone,android,etc Jan 20 12:48:44 and as a commercial dev whats wrong with ponying up for the dev license? Jan 20 12:48:46 lcuk: yeah, but android isn't relevant because nobody i know can even buy a consumer android phone Jan 20 12:48:51 ShadowJK: bme actually directs the current to the battery.. Jan 20 12:49:04 oh boom without it then :-) Jan 20 12:49:06 lcuk: so when they actually, IF they actually, get the phones i can jump on the train Jan 20 12:49:10 not amazing.. but accurate Jan 20 12:49:23 ShadowJK, no, it just doesn't charge. Jan 20 12:49:24 heh.. lke.. southpark seriously was telling the truth about scientology when they made that episode Jan 20 12:49:34 lcuk: but now it looks like google is just hindering development from guys who would like to release such phones Jan 20 12:49:55 Macer, Scientology is pure evil. Jan 20 12:49:57 GeneralAntilles, if it also handles the cutoff then you could overdischarge battery beyond the point at which it becomes unstable though? Jan 20 12:50:15 ShadowJK, it charges it. Without it, no current goes to the battery. Jan 20 12:50:30 lcuk: i'm not a big fan of google corporate culture as you can probably see :D Jan 20 12:50:33 overdischarge, not overcharge Jan 20 12:50:37 GeneralAntilles: i had no idea that south park was serious though Jan 20 12:50:50 when they had the "THIS IS WHAT SCIENTOLOGISTS BELIEVE" Jan 20 12:50:54 ShadowJK: Overdischarge won't give fire, it will just kill the lipo. Jan 20 12:50:55 Macer: south park is very serious.. the jokes just hide that from people who don't pay attention Jan 20 12:51:00 Macer, yeah, they're a terrifying bunch. Jan 20 12:51:16 well.. i never really researched scientology that much Jan 20 12:51:22 and figured they couldn't be serious Jan 20 12:51:25 Macer: and family guy actually teaches traditional family values, believe it or not Jan 20 12:51:27 it was too far fetched :) Jan 20 12:51:34 ShadowJK: But indeed bme shuts the tablet down when the battery voltage gets too low. Jan 20 12:51:39 Macer, they OWN Clearwater, FL. Jan 20 12:51:44 right Jan 20 12:52:00 Macer, the entire Clearwater PD is on their payroll. Jan 20 12:52:02 but no shit... scientologists really believe in an ancient alien war Jan 20 12:52:11 X-Fade, it might give fire if you try to charge it again after too deep discharge, but you'd hope bme would refuse to charge in that case :) Jan 20 12:52:14 is it bad that after I saw the new themes the LCARs guys put out I didn't want to work on mine any more lol Jan 20 12:52:15 Off-duty cops stand gard outside their HQ in uniform. Jan 20 12:52:20 and alien souls :) haha Jan 20 12:52:38 AndrewFBlack, intimidated eh? Jan 20 12:52:41 ShadowJK: The cell itself won't accept the charge anymore.. Jan 20 12:52:49 Stskeeps, Very much so Jan 20 12:52:51 AndrewFBlack, hehe, I was talking to Ian last night. They do know their stuff. Jan 20 12:53:01 AndrewFBlack, i think you should continue though Jan 20 12:53:16 GeneralAntilles: i have never met an actual scientologist Jan 20 12:53:31 thats because if you meet one they have to eat you Jan 20 12:53:45 haha Jan 20 12:53:50 Macer, I grew up right near the heart of Scientology. Jan 20 12:53:54 everything was true in south park though Jan 20 12:54:04 the whole hook the machine up to the brain .. etc Jan 20 12:54:16 GeneralAntilles, Using Hildon Tools blows anything I can do out the water, I'm not going to stop just disencouraged me a little Jan 20 12:54:29 i seriously thought that southpark was exagerating or just being too literal Jan 20 12:54:58 Macer: the scary part is, they didn't have to Jan 20 12:54:58 Macer: well.. you know why scientologists don't want public info.. because it would sound too ridiculous Jan 20 12:55:04 AndrewFBlack, its fairly easyto use those tools though Jan 20 12:55:21 aquatix: yeah hahaha Jan 20 12:55:32 Macer, the e-meter is a triumph of engineering. http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/Secrets/E-Meter/ Jan 20 12:55:33 Stskeeps, I think this is just going to push me to get off my lazy butt and learn the real way to do themes not the easy way, don't get me wrong I love theme maker but it can only take me so far Jan 20 12:55:37 now i want to read the l ron collection Jan 20 12:56:01 AndrewFBlack, throw in with the synthesize.us lot Jan 20 12:56:10 Elron Hubbard? ;) Jan 20 12:56:20 is it elron? Jan 20 12:56:26 thought it was L. Ron Jan 20 12:56:31 It is. Jan 20 12:56:40 Bad joke. ;) Jan 20 12:56:55 pull up, pull up, i can't elron's stuck in the wing again Jan 20 12:57:05 It's amazing how a mediocre science fiction writer turned into the leader of the world's most accepted cult. Jan 20 12:57:18 most accepted cult == apple Jan 20 12:57:35 scientology is pisscakes by comparison Jan 20 12:58:03 lcuk, ailerons don't control pitch. :P Jan 20 12:58:12 GeneralAntilles, I asked one of the guys that was on IRC about working with theme on some themes but never got a reply back. Jan 20 12:58:22 lcuk: except that scientology is influential behind the screens Jan 20 12:58:33 i wonder how much influence tom cruise and friends have Jan 20 12:58:41 so is apple, dont they own a bit of disney :P Jan 20 12:58:52 lcuk: pixar? Jan 20 12:59:02 ok close enough, its behind the screens :P Jan 20 12:59:20 ghehe Jan 20 12:59:55 * lcuk gives GeneralAntilles a masonic handshake Jan 20 13:00:06 Hehe Jan 20 13:00:18 At least the Masons aren't totally out of their minds. Jan 20 13:00:18 :) Jan 20 13:00:24 ... Jan 20 13:00:29 They do community service and whatnot. Jan 20 13:00:41 what do you think tom cruise does? Jan 20 13:01:34 it was a community service to screw katie holmes every day Jan 20 13:01:34 talkshows? Jan 20 13:02:11 lcuk: lol Jan 20 13:02:27 itd be a community service for him to commit seppuku Jan 20 13:02:29 well, i suspect him lobbying in politics Jan 20 13:02:34 :S jaska Jan 20 13:02:35 jaska: *g* Jan 20 13:02:47 All right. What happened while I was away? Jan 20 13:03:02 we voted you off the island Jan 20 13:03:06 ^ Jan 20 13:03:07 RST38h: the world spun a few degrees Jan 20 13:03:09 and that Jan 20 13:03:10 War? Famine? Can I hope for an outbreak of bubonic plague? Jan 20 13:03:14 We also voted you out of the house. Jan 20 13:03:19 aquatix: boring Jan 20 13:03:26 you are the weakest link, goodbye Jan 20 13:03:33 RST38h, bush's taking a third term Jan 20 13:03:45 noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo Jan 20 13:03:52 RST38h: ah, and the singularity transferred us to a virtual world, but that's not really worth a news item Jan 20 13:04:30 RST38h, what were u doing anyway, and have you washed your hands Jan 20 13:04:49 Oh, YESSS! I knew I could count on little buggers: Jan 20 13:04:53 http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/article2146286.ece Jan 20 13:05:00 damn, now that's a problem Jan 20 13:05:12 lcuk: Before or after whatever I was doing? Jan 20 13:05:27 lol both Jan 20 13:05:41 * lcuk isnt really interested but you asked us Jan 20 13:05:50 fucking app menu, I hate you Jan 20 13:05:59 wazd: rest assured Jan 20 13:06:02 it hates you too Jan 20 13:06:06 is that a new input method? Jan 20 13:06:36 lcuk: no, lunch. what did you think it was? Jan 20 13:06:36 * aquatix needs a double espresso Jan 20 13:06:38 brb Jan 20 13:06:56 RST38h, i dunno when you vanished Jan 20 13:07:02 anyway, my turn to go Jan 20 13:07:05 back alter folks Jan 20 13:07:14 Meanwhile: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/howaboutthat/4283328/Pedigree-dogs-are-becoming-stupid-as-we-breed-them-for-looks-not-brains.html Jan 20 13:07:35 (not only the dogs, right? ;)) Jan 20 13:10:23 RST38h: still talking about that paris hilton person? Jan 20 13:13:29 aquatix: ....mirror mirror on the wall... Jan 20 13:13:58 who's the dumbest of all? Jan 20 13:14:05 * RST38h assumes a non-involved look Jan 20 13:14:20 aquatix: you skipped "us" =) Jan 20 13:14:24 * aquatix isn't too good looking thankfully ;) Jan 20 13:14:25 ghehe Jan 20 13:14:59 RST38h: well, we're JaBoG right? (just a bunch of geeks) Jan 20 13:15:44 i think there are not many supermodels in here Jan 20 13:15:50 * aquatix shuts up Jan 20 13:16:25 * aquatix feels some people staring at him Jan 20 13:16:51 aquatix: but for EU/US overally, the trends look worse =) Jan 20 13:16:52 hehe Jan 20 13:17:07 RST38h: :) Jan 20 13:17:32 * aquatix makes note to self not to breed too good looking kids Jan 20 13:18:05 with my genes generating good looking ones would be pretty hard :) Jan 20 13:18:06 how about that: http://s44.radikal.ru/i103/0901/7e/496b338d836e.png Jan 20 13:18:11 as an upside, that might mean they're more likely to be involved in IT too Jan 20 13:18:18 jaska: :) Jan 20 13:18:42 wazd: interesting, blut a tad cluttery Jan 20 13:18:59 wazd: thick top/bottom bars on the menus are somewhat ugly Jan 20 13:19:08 where's that first `spike' from, just right of the mer logo? Jan 20 13:19:23 wazd: and the menu popping up from the center is totally wrong looking Jan 20 13:19:45 RST38h: well, right now me're discussing more UX than detailed design :) Jan 20 13:20:07 wazd: I suggest you keep the menu icon at the far left and move task icons to the right - even if they are not separated from the status icons, it should be ok Jan 20 13:20:10 imho, it's better to have the menu pop up from somewhere quite left Jan 20 13:20:41 wazd: and maybe remove that spiky-looking seperator, it adds to the clutter Jan 20 13:20:51 without it it looks better i think Jan 20 13:20:57 replace it with the menu? Jan 20 13:21:13 then you're done Jan 20 13:21:46 it think it will look rather nice then Jan 20 13:23:02 * wazd is gonna kill that b**ch in stilletos from above Jan 20 13:23:08 hello Jan 20 13:23:18 wazd: ah, always fun those people... Jan 20 13:23:34 do we have some neat fast implementation of *universal* hash tables for C++ Jan 20 13:23:40 built for maemo? Jan 20 13:23:57 esp. for very large tables Jan 20 13:26:20 wazd: How? Those heels are deadly! Jan 20 13:26:44 or any other structure for quick bit check Jan 20 13:26:44 RST38h: for her ankels, yes Jan 20 13:26:50 (existence) Jan 20 13:26:59 addition doesn't have to be fast Jan 20 13:28:03 AStorm: maybe a map? Jan 20 13:28:12 yes, which is a hash table Jan 20 13:28:17 yeah Jan 20 13:28:17 must be O(1) check Jan 20 13:28:24 or amortized O(1) Jan 20 13:28:36 isn't it in stl? Jan 20 13:28:36 Astorm: bitmap Jan 20 13:28:40 std::map or something Jan 20 13:28:45 * RST38h cringes at the mention of stl Jan 20 13:28:46 RST38h: yes, but a very large number of values Jan 20 13:28:55 AStorm: hash then Jan 20 13:29:05 aquatix: default std::map uses binary tree - O(log n) Jan 20 13:29:14 RST38h: yes, any lib with one? Jan 20 13:29:19 AStorm: ah :( Jan 20 13:29:21 AStorm: No. Do you need a lib? Jan 20 13:29:28 RST38h: I have overcoming firepower :) perforator >:D Jan 20 13:29:47 wazd: Start from the ceiling and up! Jan 20 13:29:53 wazd: wanna borrow my Nerf gun? Jan 20 13:30:07 AStorm: it is a trivial thing to write really Jan 20 13:32:02 wazd: It's worth bearing in mind that the Fremantle menus aren't going to look like that. Jan 20 13:32:08 (probably) Jan 20 13:32:15 RST38h: but not trivial to write fast Jan 20 13:32:20 and Google has done so Jan 20 13:32:52 AStorm: Trivial to write fast too Jan 20 13:32:56 yeah right Jan 20 13:33:03 for millions of records Jan 20 13:33:11 AStorm: Do you wish to have malloc() there or not? Jan 20 13:33:23 dynamic would be best, yup Jan 20 13:33:41 as I don't know the actual amount of data Jan 20 13:33:52 AStorm: No, when you add an item, is malloc ok? Jan 20 13:33:55 for static, each table would have to be like, at least 65k records Jan 20 13:34:14 if it's avoidable, then... better to lose it Jan 20 13:34:23 Ok, then go with this: Jan 20 13:34:30 are you trying to do it with a bloom filter? Jan 20 13:34:40 No. I am doing it stupidly. Jan 20 13:34:42 I tried one myself and had too many false positives - slow Jan 20 13:34:45 hm? Jan 20 13:34:46 But fast enough Jan 20 13:35:17 For static hash: 1. statically define int Hash[MAX_SIZE] Jan 20 13:35:33 yeah, except... I then need a proper hash function Jan 20 13:35:37 2. Define int HashFunc(Data) Jan 20 13:35:49 yes, note, MAX_SIZE would be huge Jan 20 13:35:57 Not necessarily Jan 20 13:35:57 or at least there would be many tables Jan 20 13:36:47 lmoura: what was the motivation for using .pyo instead of .pyc in the pymaemo bindings for python-osso btw? Jan 20 13:36:56 3. Add: for(J=HashFunc(Data);J the trick is that it's a hash from 2 integers and a boolena Jan 20 13:37:13 so, I need to design one for this Jan 20 13:37:21 very fast too Jan 20 13:37:33 and not too colliding Jan 20 13:37:39 continued: if(J>=MAX_SIZE) fucked_up(); else if(Hash[J]) exists(); else Hash[J]=Data; Jan 20 13:37:50 eh, no, that won't work Jan 20 13:37:56 It will Jan 20 13:37:57 I might have collisions Jan 20 13:38:10 would have to make Hash[J] a list Jan 20 13:38:13 It is ok, it will place them to the next available spot Jan 20 13:38:21 no need to make it a list Jan 20 13:38:30 Stskeeps, in the first versions (still current), we bytecompiled the modules using -OO in order to strip doctstrings and save space Jan 20 13:38:45 specially in 770 Jan 20 13:38:45 RST38h: note, the hash table will be heavily filled Jan 20 13:38:53 so, open addressing will be *slow* Jan 20 13:39:03 heavily as in I expect 80% load Jan 20 13:39:12 AStorm: if it will be heavily filled, screw hash, go with bitmap Jan 20 13:39:13 lmoura: alright, and you needed to make special support in python for importing .pyos? (i saw a patch) Jan 20 13:39:32 RST38h: sure Jan 20 13:39:40 Stskeeps, currently we are working to get closer to the debian polices Jan 20 13:39:48 AStorm: one million records will require int Bitmap[32768] Jan 20 13:39:52 lmoura: alright, sounds good - i've been adapting the bindings to Mer, so Jan 20 13:39:54 So you think this is better? http://s41.radikal.ru/i092/0901/fc/0591fe2f56d8.png Jan 20 13:40:06 AStorm: it is O(1) and simply like wood Jan 20 13:40:06 Stskeeps, yeah, I saw that. It was something related to importing files inside a .zip Jan 20 13:40:07 lmoura: http://bsd.tspre.org/~stskeeps/pymer.png :) Jan 20 13:40:09 simple Jan 20 13:40:23 wazd: imho, yes Jan 20 13:40:26 RST38h: so, how would I use a bitmap? Jan 20 13:40:29 wazd: yea Jan 20 13:40:44 (note - 3 values -> n bit hash?) Jan 20 13:41:02 lmoura: alright, thanks for your answers :) Jan 20 13:41:17 AStorm: Add: Bitmap[hashFunc(Data)>>5]|=1<<(HashFunc(Data)&0x1F) Jan 20 13:41:18 Is there a rather universal way to find out the location of a maemo device? Jan 20 13:41:38 32+32+1 bits, uhm Jan 20 13:41:39 AStorm: Has: return(!!Bitmap[hashFunc(Data)>>5]&(1<<(HashFunc(Data)&0x1F))); Jan 20 13:41:45 Stskeeps, no problems :) Jan 20 13:41:47 SaBer, gpsd? Jan 20 13:41:50 hmm, wait wait Jan 20 13:41:57 won't that collide? Jan 20 13:42:04 AStorm: No Jan 20 13:42:14 any hash will collide, choose a reasonable algo Jan 20 13:42:23 AStorm: because the number of entries in your bitmap will corresond to the maximum amount of data Jan 20 13:42:37 AStorm: So, your hasfunc() will be an identity function and it will never collide Jan 20 13:42:38 why even use a hash then? Jan 20 13:42:41 ah Jan 20 13:42:54 aquatix: If you have very few filled values then you should use hash to save space Jan 20 13:42:55 RST38h: 2**65 bits... quite many Jan 20 13:43:14 AStorm: lol Jan 20 13:43:14 aquatix: but AStorm says a lot of his values are actually filled Jan 20 13:43:22 RST38h: myeah Jan 20 13:43:26 AStorm: Are you going to have this many? Jan 20 13:43:31 GeneralAntilles: I guess it's the best you can get. I'm porting an application from symbian, which checks the location from the country code. This will not of course work with a maemo device, as it has no phone... Jan 20 13:43:37 RST38h: hmm, let me think Jan 20 13:44:01 ah, I made a mistake too Jan 20 13:44:28 it's actually 128 + 8 + 2 bits of data Jan 20 13:44:58 (5 ints, 1 byte, 2 bools) Jan 20 13:45:33 I expect lowish values in 2 of the ints, so these could be converted to bytes too I guess Jan 20 13:45:55 erm, you have 25.6 bit ints? Jan 20 13:45:56 then, it would be 6bytes, 2 bits Jan 20 13:46:13 aquatix: maybe miscalced, whatever Jan 20 13:46:18 :) Jan 20 13:46:31 5bytes, 2 bools hmm Jan 20 13:46:57 that gives 42 bits Jan 20 13:47:07 plausible Jan 20 13:47:13 AStorm, is this still your hash problem from a few days ago? Jan 20 13:47:14 I can build a perfect bloom filter then Jan 20 13:47:19 * lcuk just ended up using md5 for something Jan 20 13:47:21 lcuk: yes Jan 20 13:47:25 md5 is far too slow Jan 20 13:47:31 I tried that earlier Jan 20 13:47:37 even Python fast hashing is too slow Jan 20 13:47:56 crc? :) Jan 20 13:47:56 bloom filters are good if you choose the right info and dont have to rebuild it Jan 20 13:48:05 aquatix: slower than bloom Jan 20 13:48:12 ah, right Jan 20 13:48:13 lcuk: no rebuilds :) Jan 20 13:48:17 since each bloom requires 32 or 64 or however many algo passes to create the item itself it takes time Jan 20 13:48:25 1 rebuild per key you try to lookup Jan 20 13:48:37 I don't have to create the item or even grab it really... Jan 20 13:48:45 just check for existence Jan 20 13:48:55 ah, no, I need to link it to an integer Jan 20 13:49:10 (meh weight ;P ) Jan 20 13:49:19 the bloom filter is the ORed results of running multiple different algos on your key isnt it? Jan 20 13:49:53 the problem is that I can't index 42-bit directly Jan 20 13:50:09 binary trees? Jan 20 13:50:16 too slow, tried it already Jan 20 13:50:22 really needs O(1) Jan 20 13:50:27 for existence check Jan 20 13:50:30 i have a dictionary class in liqbase (internal build for now) which for any string given gives me a single 32bit wordscore Jan 20 13:50:38 or close to O(1) Jan 20 13:51:11 I'll write a chained table then I think Jan 20 13:51:26 building a wordscore takes longer, but then for every single comparison its simply a 32bit equivilence check Jan 20 13:51:37 uhm, I can't have 2**42 ints... Jan 20 13:51:46 so build once and check against potentially hundreds of other scores Jan 20 13:51:46 far too much space Jan 20 13:52:27 yes, it's close to that Jan 20 13:52:28 so, maybe don't understand something, why password, that sudo ask's is always incorrect? Jan 20 13:52:31 actually, what I use in Python Jan 20 13:52:48 but that's too slow for some reason Jan 20 13:52:54 sudo does not say to me, that commend is not in sudoers, or user is not in, but incorrect assword Jan 20 13:52:54 hell, there is no password. Jan 20 13:52:56 hell: edit /etc/sudoers Jan 20 13:53:05 and there's no root pass by default I guess Jan 20 13:53:17 i set it to default 'rootme' Jan 20 13:53:21 AStorm, sudser is in Extras Jan 20 13:53:30 user has no password. Jan 20 13:53:35 mhm Jan 20 13:54:00 lcuk: so, any idea? existence check must be fast, grabbing that weight actually too Jan 20 13:54:07 GeneralAntilles: i only need to run /bin/bash, with no NOPASSWORD option. Jan 20 13:54:36 sudoers.d Jan 20 13:54:41 lcuk: at best I might limit weights to bytes, but it's... bad Jan 20 13:54:59 astorm, i dunno if i do it right or wrong, i work entirely on strings and know for a complete object model i cannot continue to use strcmp() Jan 20 13:55:14 lcuk: yeah, for that, hash table will be fast enough Jan 20 13:55:21 so i built a chartree and assign a score to each unique string Jan 20 13:55:37 Stskeeps: ok, i already add line to /etc/sudoers Jan 20 13:55:46 I need a mapping these values -> weight and O(1) Jan 20 13:55:51 astorm, hash table wont work - that requires allocation per item with children - theres THOUSANDS of children Jan 20 13:55:53 also, don't have petabytes of ram Jan 20 13:56:09 hm, then you use a trie Jan 20 13:56:13 thousands with children ^ Jan 20 13:56:19 but on my desktop, for example, it work, or give another errors that 'incorrect password' Jan 20 13:56:36 yes (looking on wikipedia) Jan 20 13:56:52 I can't use a trie - too slow lookups Jan 20 13:57:04 *tree Jan 20 13:57:07 thats basically the tree, each leaf has a score assigned to it which is unique and thats what i (aim to) use for the lookups Jan 20 13:57:14 aquatix: no, trie, it's a special kind of tree Jan 20 13:57:29 oh, a triary tree? Jan 20 13:57:35 * aquatix googles Jan 20 13:57:41 aquatix: no, use the wikipedia or google :) Jan 20 13:57:53 So, it works, if i use 'NOPASSWD:', but i need password to enter) Jan 20 13:58:04 ah right Jan 20 13:58:11 lcuk: hmmmmmh... I actually only need to access certain *sequential* (with regards to a symbol) part of the weight Jan 20 13:58:25 but still need a quick check for existence Jan 20 13:58:37 is this hwr still? Jan 20 13:58:44 yes, it is Jan 20 13:58:53 need to check for features quickly, then grab weight Jan 20 13:59:01 that's all Jan 20 13:59:07 there's *a lot* of them Jan 20 13:59:13 GeneralAntilles: have you a success stories with maemo's sudo with root password?) Jan 20 13:59:23 as in exponential number Jan 20 13:59:44 although feature space is limited Jan 20 14:00:00 (one is 5bytes + 2 bits) Jan 20 14:00:17 there always is, i cant remember how i implemented the lookup in vb its a long time ago Jan 20 14:00:28 why such an odd size Jan 20 14:00:41 2 numbers for angle and length Jan 20 14:00:49 1 number for "skips" Jan 20 14:00:55 2 bits for "stop" marker Jan 20 14:01:04 (as in invisible feature) Jan 20 14:01:24 it's OSB - Orthogonal Sparse Bigram Jan 20 14:01:36 thus the huge number of features Jan 20 14:01:51 quality of detection is excellent - speed, not so much Jan 20 14:02:01 reduce resolution, angle needs only to be in a certain range Jan 20 14:02:06 yes Jan 20 14:02:15 I did that already, quantized to 5 degrees Jan 20 14:02:23 use each property as a branch in the tree Jan 20 14:02:25 length is quantized too Jan 20 14:02:45 ie level1 == split on just the angle Jan 20 14:02:46 hmm, no, I have to check for existence, then grab weight Jan 20 14:02:52 then within the angle another subbranch Jan 20 14:03:05 if I had to traverse it, it'll probably take too long Jan 20 14:03:14 only 2-3 levels Jan 20 14:03:25 not long at all and with each step you reduce the space Jan 20 14:03:32 hopefully. Jan 20 14:03:41 I tried something like that and it didn't work Jan 20 14:04:08 i think thats how i did mine with dependencies backwards and forwards - its basically just a compiler Jan 20 14:04:09 because memory used was too huge Jan 20 14:04:44 I need to compress somehow all these weights Jan 20 14:05:00 they're usually fairly low signed numbers Jan 20 14:05:18 you can make a single layer tree and recurse and hold cursors to all ongoing viable detection strokes Jan 20 14:05:33 and when you reach the end of a chain you know you have a viable character Jan 20 14:05:35 eh, I have detection done, thank you, decision tree is crummy Jan 20 14:05:50 I just need a quick and space efficient lookup of the weights Jan 20 14:06:03 (for a huge feature space) Jan 20 14:06:44 I can use microgrooming (that is, dropping features with weights close to 0), but it's just a workaround Jan 20 14:06:59 still have to somehow hold a large number of numbers ;P Jan 20 14:08:13 you dont have memory to hold large tables though do you? Jan 20 14:08:37 not *that* large (2**42 bytes) Jan 20 14:08:49 How densely is it filled? Jan 20 14:09:02 RST38h: as I said, densely, but usually with similar small values Jan 20 14:09:36 where small is like, +/- 40 or so Jan 20 14:10:19 you compress and fold it up into a small tree as i described, not a decision tree but a results tree. it will hold the same data you are hoping for but not in a single flat slab of memory Jan 20 14:10:39 except it will still take the same amount of memory Jan 20 14:10:44 and I don't have that much Jan 20 14:10:54 no, it will start off taking up 0 bytes Jan 20 14:10:55 I can live with at worst 32 MB Jan 20 14:10:59 and only grow as you fill it Jan 20 14:11:00 mhm, nice Jan 20 14:11:13 like, it will be a small btree? Jan 20 14:11:26 with broad levels? Jan 20 14:11:28 so you can also cull the worthless brranches and speed up later as well Jan 20 14:11:31 yes Jan 20 14:11:48 hm, hopefully it will *not* become as full as it currently is Jan 20 14:11:58 yes, it shouldnt need to Jan 20 14:12:03 AStorm: Are you checking for the presence of a certain value or for a 42bit address beign filled Jan 20 14:12:04 ? Jan 20 14:12:12 anyway, must dash Jan 20 14:12:27 angles are almost fully dispersed Jan 20 14:12:33 but lengths are not, there I can save space Jan 20 14:12:51 RST38h: yes, and grabbing a number attached to it Jan 20 14:13:13 also, stop bit is rarely set Jan 20 14:15:31 so, length is usually between 0 and 5, stop bits are usually 0 Jan 20 14:16:02 this btree might actually work Jan 20 14:19:17 Mmm.... Jan 20 14:25:05 and the number of skips is likely to be small too Jan 20 14:25:36 This is all not very important for choosing a data structure Jan 20 14:26:01 very important really, as size is limited Jan 20 14:26:06 and lookup has to be O(1) Jan 20 14:26:30 You only want your data structure to tell whether a certain data IS there or ISN'T, right? Jan 20 14:26:33 thus, I can use a btree to have a constant time lookup (actually worst case log(6)) Jan 20 14:26:36 no Jan 20 14:26:38 can someone explain me the semantic difference for this? http://wiki.maemo.org/index.php?title=Task%3AMaemo_roadmap%2FFremantle&diff=9891&oldid=9721 Jan 20 14:26:44 then I could use a perfect bloom filter Jan 20 14:26:47 AStorm: So you want Find() not Has()? Jan 20 14:26:52 both Jan 20 14:27:01 O, it is Find() then Jan 20 14:27:06 Contains to be fast, Find to be fast too Jan 20 14:27:12 and not to eat bazillions of RAM Jan 20 14:27:22 Next question: how many DIFFERENT values are there? Jan 20 14:27:37 for angles, 360/quant Jan 20 14:27:43 so' as i understand, the one secure root sh is to setup openssh-server, and use ssh to localhost, fantastic. Jan 20 14:27:51 for length, hopefully not all that many Jan 20 14:27:52 So at most 360 different values? Jan 20 14:28:04 How many length values? Approximately? Jan 20 14:28:06 for stop, it's a bit Jan 20 14:28:20 hmm, mostly low as in < 10 (which is 1 cm) Jan 20 14:28:24 Ok Jan 20 14:28:35 nah, wait Jan 20 14:28:43 100 is 1 cm Jan 20 14:28:43 Then we are talking about 10*360*2=7200 different values? Jan 20 14:28:57 72000 different values? Jan 20 14:29:19 (100*360/5*2)**2 * up to about 10 Jan 20 14:29:31 What is the total number? Jan 20 14:29:51 2073600000 Jan 20 14:30:04 and at worst each having a byte attached Jan 20 14:30:11 the abov3e expression does not evaluate to this total Jan 20 14:30:30 it does - checked in Python Jan 20 14:30:50 I expect length to be up to 7 bit (127) Jan 20 14:31:11 ok Jan 20 14:31:18 "up to about 10" means 10? Jan 20 14:31:20 3344509440L - then Jan 20 14:31:23 yes Jan 20 14:31:40 quite a few Jan 20 14:31:50 each possibly with a small number attached Jan 20 14:32:01 long lengths are unlikely Jan 20 14:32:20 and that bit is usually 0 Jan 20 14:32:24 Let us use (100*360/5*2) as hash size Jan 20 14:32:42 14400 entries, i.e. 14bit hash keys Jan 20 14:32:51 then I'd need 2 lookups to find the entries Jan 20 14:32:57 hmmh Jan 20 14:33:07 and weight is attached to "sum" of them Jan 20 14:33:14 I need to lookup whole values Jan 20 14:33:18 Each hash entry will point to a binary tree Jan 20 14:33:33 or, actually, btree, they are more efficient Jan 20 14:33:42 except a pointer is 32-bit Jan 20 14:33:44 :P Jan 20 14:33:51 no problemo at all Jan 20 14:34:06 2^15 32bit pointers Jan 20 14:34:12 65 KB hash table Jan 20 14:34:14 pointing to btrees Jan 20 14:34:31 64kB hash table is nothing by today's standards Jan 20 14:34:33 but the weight is attached to 2 such "features" and a number of skips Jan 20 14:34:38 not the other way Jan 20 14:34:46 ok, so you want crosslinks? Jan 20 14:34:50 exactly Jan 20 14:35:01 that's why **2 Jan 20 14:35:06 no no Jan 20 14:35:13 any to any Jan 20 14:35:24 but it is a different structure :) Jan 20 14:35:29 I said it is Jan 20 14:35:34 how many crosslinks can point to a single feature? Jan 20 14:35:41 many Jan 20 14:35:50 how many can point FROm a single feature? Jan 20 14:35:51 I expect at least 5 Jan 20 14:35:57 from - many too Jan 20 14:36:00 ok Jan 20 14:36:32 thinking Jan 20 14:37:11 a flat array of bytes, that many, will cost 12 GB, sorry, can't do Jan 20 14:37:19 naah Jan 20 14:37:20 so I have to save space where I can Jan 20 14:38:05 (of 127*360/5*2 -> 127*360/5*2, times 10) Jan 20 14:38:12 (times 5 really, blah) Jan 20 14:38:22 I missed with a comma, it's closer to 1 GB Jan 20 14:38:26 still too huge Jan 20 14:39:12 Use k-d tree Jan 20 14:39:27 You basically have two dimensions Jan 20 14:39:46 2 + bit Jan 20 14:39:54 The first level of btree nodes will divide your space by dimension #1 ("from") Jan 20 14:40:08 The second level will divide by dimension #2 ("to") Jan 20 14:40:40 how will that save me memory? Jan 20 14:40:47 You obviously will not get O(1) though :) Jan 20 14:41:00 hm Jan 20 14:41:12 as long as it's extremely fast, it will do Jan 20 14:41:13 Well, if you were doing it with an array, it would be 2^(14+14)=2^28 Jan 20 14:41:19 space-wise Jan 20 14:41:27 2^30 actually Jan 20 14:41:32 yea, in bytes Jan 20 14:41:45 (2 bits), and * say 8, so, 2^31 Jan 20 14:41:50 which is too much Jan 20 14:41:53 calculate vector length, do lookup if you get a match, then calculate angle and lookup using that second subtree, you are talking about only a few new vectors per second (its hwr) this is entirely doable Jan 20 14:42:02 But doing it with a btree you save space. As for the items themselves, having a 64kB hash is ok Jan 20 14:42:20 lcuk: except "few new vectors" isn't all that true, but indeed length is usually small Jan 20 14:42:36 I don't need to lookup single items, only whole Jan 20 14:42:40 yes, really it is a few small vectors, i work in strokes all day Jan 20 14:42:52 AStorm: you will start from a k-d btree then Jan 20 14:43:07 AStorm: here is another idea Jan 20 14:43:09 or are you weighing every single point of every single stroke ever encountered in realtime? Jan 20 14:43:23 AStorm: screw angles/lengths and use rectangles instead Jan 20 14:43:52 no can do, rectangle takes more data Jan 20 14:44:24 width and height at least Jan 20 14:44:33 which would be the same as angle+length Jan 20 14:45:16 and I'd have to go with negative widths and/or heights or lose data Jan 20 14:45:17 BUT by doing simple computation you can recover x,y,w,h form your a+l pair Jan 20 14:45:19 pity :> Jan 20 14:45:30 but I don't need x,y,w,h Jan 20 14:45:38 So you can store a+l as much as you like but use w+h for indexing Jan 20 14:45:38 and x,y,w,h is far too much data to index Jan 20 14:45:54 hmm, except it would have false positives Jan 20 14:46:01 wait wait wait Jan 20 14:46:07 can't distinguish left/right and up/down Jan 20 14:46:17 so, angle and length it is Jan 20 14:46:19 So, you have got two a+l pairs. And you are recording a LINK between them? Jan 20 14:46:26 exactly Jan 20 14:46:34 (and a number of skips) Jan 20 14:46:36 Basically, what you are recording is a VECTOR then Jan 20 14:46:44 * sisto is happy Jan 20 14:46:47 but a 5-valued vector Jan 20 14:46:52 meaning a huge one Jan 20 14:46:55 It is a vector. Jan 20 14:47:01 x,y,w,h Jan 20 14:47:07 or x,y,a,l Jan 20 14:47:11 I'd need two of those Jan 20 14:47:13 or 2 x a,l Jan 20 14:47:22 2x a,l really Jan 20 14:47:32 plus 2 bits plus number of skips Jan 20 14:47:44 AStorm: Instead of recording 2x a,l, just use rectangles. Jan 20 14:47:50 AStorm: Put them into an R-tree Jan 20 14:48:02 Astorm: store your extra bits at the leaves Jan 20 14:48:06 You are done. Jan 20 14:48:10 ehhh.. did I already mention that rectangles lose direction? Jan 20 14:48:17 they do not Jan 20 14:48:27 * aquatix has lost direction Jan 20 14:48:27 negative w,h are quite possible Jan 20 14:48:28 I'll have to store it still Jan 20 14:48:32 testing Jan 20 14:48:43 sisto: working Jan 20 14:48:51 RST38h: I see what you mean Jan 20 14:48:53 so you are not losing anything Jan 20 14:48:54 hmmm..... Jan 20 14:49:00 AStorm: sorry i was testing my x-chat message color Jan 20 14:49:04 just looking at the same shit from a different errr... angle Jan 20 14:49:23 so, it's actually 2 points, number of skipped features Jan 20 14:49:58 and optionally 1 point, blank, -1 Jan 20 14:50:45 the trick is, this "feature point" has to be generated from hwr input Jan 20 14:50:46 ignore this test message Jan 20 14:51:00 and not bound to the actual plane or DPI Jan 20 14:51:09 *actual place Jan 20 14:53:23 hmm, I *can* convert these to single features... Jan 20 14:53:37 RST38h: thanks for the idea, now I can reduce dimensionality Jan 20 14:53:50 OT: do java applets work in the browser in maemo? Jan 20 14:54:11 no Jan 20 14:54:18 unless you build us a JVM Jan 20 14:54:29 which is not entirely impossible Jan 20 14:55:01 AStorm: that would be nice... i was thinking about yahoo games compatibility Jan 20 14:55:25 that uses Java 1.5, right? hmmm, *maybe* it could work with GNU Classpath Jan 20 14:55:32 but I guess speed will be abysmal Jan 20 14:55:33 hi Jan 20 14:55:41 astrom depends Jan 20 14:56:04 AStorm: speed of yahoo games is always abysmal :P Jan 20 14:56:13 lol Jan 20 14:57:15 Stskeeps: then it would be unusable on NIT Jan 20 14:57:15 hi Jan 20 14:57:37 Does anybody know that is Bluetooth-module available in Maemo's Qt? Jan 20 14:57:54 herwood hm Jan 20 14:58:06 I think you mean qtopia Jan 20 14:58:17 hmm Jan 20 14:58:56 or what you mean with bluetooth modul? Jan 20 14:59:00 I mean this: http://qt4.garage.maemo.org/ Jan 20 14:59:08 sorry Jan 20 14:59:17 http://doc.trolltech.com/qtextended4.4/bluetooth.html Jan 20 14:59:17 this Jan 20 14:59:22 ah Jan 20 14:59:28 I'm trying to send a file via Bluetooth Jan 20 14:59:29 RST38h: so, I'll need width, height, number of quarter (2 bits), 2 bits stop, 4 bits skip Jan 20 14:59:32 qt4 is normal qt Jan 20 14:59:34 not qte Jan 20 14:59:48 that is 3 byte address, 1 byte attached Jan 20 14:59:54 OT again: is there a way to replace the sidebar or change the function of the icons? Jan 20 15:00:03 there was another project trying qtopia but didnt heard of them never more Jan 20 15:00:14 and if they ever swtiched to qte Jan 20 15:00:15 sisto: yes and yes - sidebar can be disabled Jan 20 15:00:30 and you can change all icons (there are examples) Jan 20 15:00:36 hmm Jan 20 15:00:42 but can't lose the "task list" and "task switch" icon Jan 20 15:00:47 I think Jan 20 15:00:56 Astorm: you will need xy Jan 20 15:00:58 woglinde: what about the bluetooth support? Can I somehow send a file by using OBEX OPP? Jan 20 15:01:00 AStorm: thanks! Jan 20 15:01:17 RST38h: no, I don't - because now I have angle/len anyway Jan 20 15:01:36 it doesn't have to be attached anywhere (OSB records some measure of "causality") Jan 20 15:01:47 AStorm: just drop angle/len and have x1y1-x2y2 Jan 20 15:02:01 one byte, even? Jan 20 15:02:05 instead of w,h? Jan 20 15:02:05 AStorm: the links nonsense will automatically go away Jan 20 15:02:19 herwood: there's bluez and obex stuff in maemo Jan 20 15:02:21 RST38h, ugly and harder to track "similar" vectors Jan 20 15:02:23 I still need the length Jan 20 15:02:36 not just the scalar Jan 20 15:02:40 lcuk: Oh, not harder, just requires an extra index which is no problem Jan 20 15:02:49 AStorm; you can compute the length all right Jan 20 15:03:01 from a scalar? tell me how ;P Jan 20 15:03:19 or, how to get the angle Jan 20 15:03:21 AStorm: sqrt(x1^2+x2^2) Jan 20 15:03:30 is there an awn port to maemo? (or similar) Jan 20 15:03:33 the angle is *required* - has to be directly or indirectly stored Jan 20 15:03:40 AStorm: angle? atan(x1/y1) Jan 20 15:03:55 but I don't have x1 or y1 in (x1y1-x2y2) Jan 20 15:04:05 they're not free variables Jan 20 15:04:06 AStorm: by "-" I meant a dash :) Jan 20 15:04:13 ah, then it's 4 bytes Jan 20 15:04:15 sorry, no can do Jan 20 15:04:17 it's not better Jan 20 15:04:28 I want to save space, not waste Jan 20 15:04:33 AStorm: it is better when you consider how much easier it is to index Jan 20 15:04:41 You will end up saving space Jan 20 15:04:53 it's not easier at all, because I want to have the features position independent Jan 20 15:05:00 herwood hm via the commandline all the obex commands should work Jan 20 15:05:13 (for increased generality and lower number of features) Jan 20 15:05:39 * RST38h does not know what features are but from given conditions it looks like AStorm just operates with regular vectors Jan 20 15:06:00 vectors of vectors Jan 20 15:06:05 astorm, i work on entire strokes and normalize everything within a 1.0*1.0 frame. its totally resolution independent, if i am working with a combined character i choose one stroke and scale others within the initial range as well Jan 20 15:06:20 OSB is (feat, feat, skip) Jan 20 15:06:26 feat is (angle, len, stop) Jan 20 15:06:41 so, I can actually merge the two feats for space savings Jan 20 15:07:11 lcuk: I do so too, but I don't want to store points - that ties it too much to relative position Jan 20 15:07:48 woglinde: ok, thanks. I'm still a bit lost with this Qt. Jan 20 15:08:04 herwood hm? Jan 20 15:08:05 RST38h: I can actually have this changed to: (width, height, skip, stop, stop) Jan 20 15:08:29 hmm, though it would lose the length... meh Jan 20 15:08:33 false positives again Jan 20 15:08:48 woglinde: ? Jan 20 15:09:28 herwood if you dont describe your problem we cant help you Jan 20 15:09:55 RST38h, lcuk - join a #tmp-hwr for a while Jan 20 15:11:32 woglinde: Sorry about that, I didn't get it at first. So let me describe my problem a little bit more: Jan 20 15:15:00 woglinde: So, I'm trying to send a file via Bluetooth to another device by using OBEX OPP. I know other device's BT-address but the only problem is that I do not know how to use the OBEX in Qt. I've previously implemented the same app by using glib and there was this library called gw-obex which I could use to access OBEX. Jan 20 15:17:09 gw-obex offered all the functionlity which I needed: set the callback functions for progress- and disconnect-signals and gw_obex_put_file -function which sent the actual file. Jan 20 15:17:26 so now I'm trying to do the similar operation but under Qt Jan 20 15:17:36 herwood hm okay Jan 20 15:18:10 herwood: we still have gw-obex really, and Qt is a widget framework Jan 20 15:18:21 two different goals :P Jan 20 15:18:57 http://maemo.org/maemo_release_documentation/maemo4.1.x/node10.html#SECTION001024100000000000000 Jan 20 15:19:31 herwood hm I would asking at #qt frist Jan 20 15:20:24 herwood it seems the bt support is not in the normal qt only in qte Jan 20 15:22:37 Stskeeps: I think I'm having some sort of noob mistake here now. So if I'll include the gw-obex.h -file in my code, I'll get a bunch of errors Jan 20 15:27:12 can anybody suggest small phone that has bt and edge in it? Possibly cheap :) Jan 20 15:27:31 wazd: Samsung U100 Jan 20 15:27:41 since my 2630 is going to die soon :( Jan 20 15:28:53 RST38h: well, aren't samsungs bad at software? Jan 20 15:28:56 wazd: you're about to drop it in your drink? Jan 20 15:29:09 wazd: Dunno. U100 is so stupid that there is hardly any software there Jan 20 15:29:10 wazd: a sony ericsson phone maybe? Jan 20 15:29:14 i quite like those Jan 20 15:29:52 gronk Jan 20 15:29:59 yeah, se makes ok dumb-phones Jan 20 15:30:13 tv-out, omfg :D Jan 20 15:32:55 hi qwerty Jan 20 15:33:03 hey woglinde Jan 20 15:33:05 maybe something from Philips Xenium series - they appear to work for weeks :) Jan 20 15:33:16 qwerty12: hey there) Jan 20 15:33:27 hi wazd :) Jan 20 15:36:15 * qwerty12 curses himself for using "set -e" with maemo-confirm-text involved Jan 20 15:37:08 ahaha...RIM's blackberry app-store-thing uses synaptic's icons Jan 20 15:41:25 heh, i would have loved to test out one of those philips phones, if they where available here... Jan 20 15:43:50 sure are a lot of them Jan 20 15:47:06 ahaha...a *month* of standby? Jan 20 15:47:23 yep Jan 20 15:47:42 reminds me of the grayscale Palm devices too btw Jan 20 15:47:46 wonder how the heck they get that out of 900mAh Jan 20 15:47:47 * qwerty12 notes at the expense of features. But maybe I'm one of those people who expects everything from a phone. Jan 20 15:48:04 weeks of working on it on 1 charge Jan 20 15:48:06 qwerty12, yeah, I'm spoiled now. :/ Jan 20 15:48:25 johnx, hah, I don't even know what you guys have there in Japan :P Jan 20 15:49:28 I just have the free w/ contract sony ericson thing: 3G, tethering, 2mp camera (reads qr codes), AGPS, opera and supports rfid payment Jan 20 15:49:56 that was free w/ contract in summer 2007 Jan 20 15:50:14 sounds like a nice companion to a NIT Jan 20 15:50:20 no bt though Jan 20 15:50:24 oh Jan 20 15:50:28 meh Jan 20 15:50:30 * qwerty12 wouldn't mind that :). I have a "standard" se phone (ENEA OSE) and it uses NetFront as the lame wap browser Jan 20 15:50:37 I could tether my zaurus with IRDA...ahaha Jan 20 15:50:38 well, nowadays you would have Jan 20 15:50:42 johnx: lol Jan 20 15:51:08 agps is *fast* though and saved my butt a couple times Jan 20 15:51:15 but data costs are a killer Jan 20 15:51:27 oh, no flat-fee 3G? Jan 20 15:51:45 I could for the equivalent of ~$90 a month Jan 20 15:51:49 whoa Jan 20 15:52:00 that would be total phone bill though Jan 20 15:52:03 i have a (slowish) flat-fee subscription for 7 EUR/month Jan 20 15:52:11 that's throttled to 128kbit though Jan 20 15:52:13 ah Jan 20 15:52:33 that 7 EUR is extra on my gsm subscription Jan 20 15:52:37 right now my whole plan with like ~10MB is $30/month Jan 20 15:52:45 hm Jan 20 15:52:52 10MB... Jan 20 15:53:10 if I go over 10MB it costs more but after a certain amount it retroactively signs me up for the unlimited for that month Jan 20 15:53:23 *g* Jan 20 15:53:29 well, that's rather nice of course Jan 20 15:53:30 so, no matter how much I use I can never go over $100/month in data costs Jan 20 15:53:31 but still :) Jan 20 15:53:45 * aquatix thinks that's still quite a bit Jan 20 15:53:53 but i'm a cheapskate i guess Jan 20 15:54:00 it's a lot but it's much more friendly than US carriers Jan 20 15:54:17 they'd bill you $1000 and laugh all the way to the bank even if they lost you as a customer Jan 20 15:54:24 true Jan 20 15:54:32 that's why i'm glad i live in europe Jan 20 15:54:40 ^ Jan 20 15:54:57 hehe Jan 20 15:55:09 After hearing stories, I've come to an conclusion that US carriers leave a lot to be desired Jan 20 15:55:26 yup. and they're 1,000 times better than the Canadian ones Jan 20 15:56:07 I think the root cause in the US/CA is limited competition Jan 20 15:56:15 yeah Jan 20 15:56:23 i'm quite sure of that Jan 20 15:56:52 * johnx slaps US anti-trust enforcers with a frozen trout. "wake up!" Jan 20 15:57:09 The carriers have them in their pay :P Jan 20 15:57:13 yeah Jan 20 15:57:18 lobbyists Jan 20 15:58:14 Although a lot of the US only phones (CDMA and the like) are pretty cool. I wouldn't mind trying one here but all our networks here are GSM & UMTS etc Jan 20 15:59:12 yeah, when I'm eventually back in the states it will be a tough call whether to sell my soul and go cdma or try to stick with gsm Jan 20 15:59:49 Don't go the dark side! Jan 20 15:59:55 two words: palm pre Jan 20 16:00:08 johnx: One word: VERIZON Jan 20 16:00:17 johnx: Scared already? =) Jan 20 16:00:18 RST38h, even worse: Sprint Jan 20 16:00:23 urgh Jan 20 16:00:28 yeah Jan 20 16:00:38 don't see any interesting options though Jan 20 16:00:40 ttg home though Jan 20 16:01:22 johnx, the GSM Pre will be out eventually. Jan 20 16:01:37 yeah, I might hold out Jan 20 16:01:45 but sprint also has the best data network Jan 20 16:02:32 Do they? Jan 20 16:02:53 says gizmodo who I'm inclined to believe hate *everyone* enough not to take sides Jan 20 16:03:10 * AndrewFBlack wishes we had a application that pulled movie showtimes from http://www.google.com/movies for local theaters and saved them on tablet for offline viewing. Jan 20 16:03:15 Surely that must be region dependent, though. Jan 20 16:03:25 GeneralAntilles, of course Jan 20 16:03:49 but it was pretty clearly spring in the lead or following closely in second in the regions they tested Jan 20 16:04:01 still, i have *no* idea how much traveling I'll be doing Jan 20 16:04:24 hard to figure out priorities when I don't even know of cdma vs gsm will matter to me Jan 20 16:08:25 * qwerty12 curses his firefox showing "colour" as a spelling error Jan 20 16:08:35 fix your locale? Jan 20 16:09:01 I think my locale is already en_GB but Ubuntu didn't see apt to install the en_GB dictionary for firefox :) Jan 20 16:10:16 too bad the g1 has such crap battery life :/ Jan 20 16:12:39 * GeneralAntilles found a key in his wallet and doesn't know what it's for. Jan 20 16:14:16 uhm, it means you're the one and you can destroy the matrix? either that or you put your stuff in a locker at the train station/bus stop/airport and forgot to get it back :) Jan 20 16:14:29 Real key Jan 20 16:14:33 So it's not a locker or safe. Jan 20 16:14:55 * GeneralAntilles is a little scared now Jan 20 16:15:01 That's the kind of thing I would remember doing. Jan 20 16:15:49 car key? house key? Jan 20 16:15:52 You got rid of your memory and the key is the only way of saving the world. Expect two men in black to come get you? Jan 20 16:15:54 is it a copy or an original? Jan 20 16:16:13 johnx, house. Probably a copy. Jan 20 16:16:45 huh Jan 20 16:16:45 odd Jan 20 16:17:05 Quite Jan 20 16:17:52 hi ga Jan 20 16:18:23 Hi, woglinde. Jan 20 16:18:35 front door key to the playboy mansion? Jan 20 16:19:03 Key to the white house of course ;) Jan 20 16:19:16 GA for president ;) Jan 20 16:19:19 Sadly I don't have the time or money to travel to either of those places. :P Jan 20 16:19:40 Inauguration speech: "Fuck you all!" Jan 20 16:19:45 well then you'd best sell it on ebay :) Jan 20 16:19:51 Pretty funny.. CNN will have satellite images of the crowd there ;) Jan 20 16:20:25 this means we're finally in the future, right? Jan 20 16:28:22 johnx: laser beam from satelitte hack Jan 20 16:28:23 :P Jan 20 16:28:59 i mean, if it's google's sattelite.. then noone would be surprised that google was actually just a front for SkyNet.. Jan 20 16:29:20 but, but,...they said they wouldn't be evil :( Jan 20 16:29:40 johnx: http://bsd.tspre.org/~stskeeps/pymer.png btw Jan 20 16:29:45 on x86 and armel Jan 20 16:30:01 what app is that? Jan 20 16:30:12 Migara or something like that Jan 20 16:30:15 i don't recall Jan 20 16:30:16 mirage Jan 20 16:30:19 mirage, yeah Jan 20 16:30:27 holy craps! pymaemo is working? Jan 20 16:30:32 we still need python-conic and other things, but, yeah Jan 20 16:30:48 and i had to patch pygtk Jan 20 16:30:59 congrats though. looks great Jan 20 16:31:40 You still need a way of having conic pass a successful connection event ;) Jan 20 16:31:57 yeah.. Jan 20 16:31:57 :P Jan 20 16:32:09 gwah...connecting py-conic to nm? Jan 20 16:32:26 or libconic itself Jan 20 16:33:10 so, libconic is open source, right? but it's purpose is to be an interface to icd, right? Jan 20 16:33:23 dbus interface Jan 20 16:33:26 sisto: Finally recieved an answer to my email. I was told that backorders are usually filled within 10-14 days, but they really don't have the slightest clue. I'd be entirely happy to get it within the 1st month of February. Jan 20 16:33:49 1st day? Jan 20 16:33:52 :) Jan 20 16:34:15 that's nice to hear Jan 20 16:34:17 johnx, pretty much. it can request a disconnect & connect from icd, retrieve current proxy settings, see current state of wlan connectivity etc Jan 20 16:34:20 sisto, maybe he has longer februaries where he comes from :) Jan 20 16:34:46 qwerty12, so hopefully we just need a simple wrapper for 90% functionality Jan 20 16:35:22 Would be nice :) Jan 20 16:37:48 sisto: I meant first week. I guess that makes more sense. Jan 20 16:45:56 RST38h: I'm done with Spec icon) Jan 20 16:47:39 * johnx <3 screen Jan 20 16:54:55 well, something like that: http://i051.radikal.ru/0901/57/726a406bfaeb.png Jan 20 16:58:04 RST38h: gone to your e-mail Jan 20 16:58:10 heh, danish tv quality "and now the oath will be given to Powell" Jan 20 16:58:22 always good with correctness Jan 20 16:58:23 :P Jan 20 17:00:04 Stskeeps: what do you think bout that layout?) http://s39.radikal.ru/i085/0901/39/39d110fce1fb.png Jan 20 17:00:36 wazd, I know you weren't asking me, but I think that looks totally awesome :) Jan 20 17:01:03 johnx: oh, and you too ofcourse :) Jan 20 17:01:14 wazd: can we do an activity walkthrough of it? Jan 20 17:01:27 (i'm reading for HCI exam tomorrow :( :( :() Jan 20 17:02:02 wazd: looks quite interesting Jan 20 17:02:22 Stskeeps: I've moved app menu button to the left Jan 20 17:02:50 it matches cos its similar place to the title bar previously i guess Jan 20 17:03:58 Stskeeps: well, menu in the center was a total crap :) Jan 20 17:04:27 i guess we can only first see the true value when an interactive prototype is made Jan 20 17:04:28 Stskeeps: it looked good in the statusbar but menu itself was very badly positioned Jan 20 17:04:30 maybe in flash and such Jan 20 17:05:59 gah, I really wish I could see what Nokia planning with regards to hildon-desktop Jan 20 17:09:25 johnx, yeah, obnoxious. :\ Jan 20 17:10:20 meh. I wouldn't be worrying at all except that now wazd (and others) are putting forward these really nice mockups and I don't know whether I should try to see what's possible now or just wait Jan 20 17:11:11 johnx: if anything, we can rely on h-d being very heavily based on clutter Jan 20 17:11:36 and we want to continue with the h-d as it is now, as our baseline i guess Jan 20 17:11:52 ok, all I needed to hear :) Jan 20 17:12:09 if anything, we end up patching all those things in h-d that people wanted to do for ages :P Jan 20 17:12:12 I'll finish up first-boot-wizard changes tonight and look at merging ubuntu patches into hildon-desktop Jan 20 17:12:17 k Jan 20 17:12:45 again, no promises on what I can accomplish besides giving it a good looking over :) Jan 20 17:12:56 yeah Jan 20 17:18:02 opinions on having root and user password initially be set to the same thing? Jan 20 17:18:28 eventually we won't have a "root" password, just user, similar to ubuntu model, i guess Jan 20 17:18:41 ah, so maybe we should move to ubuntu's sudo system now? Jan 20 17:18:52 that's a possibility yeah Jan 20 17:19:16 sudo is both the model in vista, and in ubuntu, so, that root usage is an exception Jan 20 17:20:18 yup, I agree. experts can set a root password. woo! looks easy to do, just add a line to sudoers Jan 20 17:20:32 sudoers.d, i think we use maemo's sudo so Jan 20 17:20:38 O_o Jan 20 17:20:57 http://repository.mer.tspre.org/pool/main/s/sudo/ Jan 20 17:21:07 the big change is just adding sudoers.d right? Jan 20 17:21:07 intentional choice - ubuntu doesn't have /etc/sudoers.d Jan 20 17:21:15 making a file there yeah Jan 20 17:21:27 ok, great Jan 20 17:21:33 and sudoers.d is more sane regarding applications and all that stuff Jan 20 17:21:41 definitely Jan 20 17:22:40 ah *&$% Jan 20 17:22:57 full of 'user'isms :/ Jan 20 17:23:37 yeah Jan 20 17:23:44 we can replace it with groups instead probably Jan 20 17:23:55 yup, ubuntu's admin group should work well I think Jan 20 17:24:00 wazd: do you really moved the button? Jan 20 17:25:46 i like more than others Jan 20 17:28:01 opengeekv2: nope, I lied :D Jan 20 17:40:36 ok nooo Jan 20 17:40:41 oh nooo Jan 20 17:41:02 opengeekv2, did you do your own mockup in gimp? Jan 20 17:41:13 yes Jan 20 17:41:47 cutting and pasting things from other screenshots and mockups XD Jan 20 17:42:39 desings of wazd are tro worked Jan 20 17:43:08 wazd: how you draw all this things? Jan 20 17:44:05 opengeekv2: photoshop Jan 20 17:44:30 do you have a lot of practice Jan 20 17:44:49 opengeekv2: almost 7 years :) Jan 20 17:44:56 omg Jan 20 17:45:43 opengeekv2: my first PC was so slow that couldn't run any game, so I had to play with photoshop :) Jan 20 17:45:52 hehe Jan 20 17:46:22 i'll try to make a mockup of how i think that fullscreen should be Jan 20 17:54:22 wazd: my first pc had no hard disk, so I had to play with hacking comand.com with an hexadecimal editor :-D Jan 20 17:54:59 my first pc was a 286 that was PC incompatible, so i had to write my own gfx drivers and printer drivers Jan 20 17:55:02 :P Jan 20 17:55:19 heh...I got into the game really late. Jan 20 17:55:45 my only claim to fame is making an isa pnp modem and isa pnp sound card work at the same time in the same computer Jan 20 17:56:26 i had a UNIX machine standing in the next room since i was 8 :P Jan 20 17:56:44 my mom knows COBOL :) Jan 20 17:56:44 it died of heat and us not knowing how to shut down the machine properly :P Jan 20 17:56:47 hehe Jan 20 17:58:54 * GeneralAntilles had AOL 1.0. ;) Jan 20 17:59:30 I sometimes miss the circa-1997/1998 internet Jan 20 17:59:37 then I remember that the past sucks :) Jan 20 17:59:51 and before my first PC I was having fun learning assembly language for the zilog Z80 processor (spectrum) Jan 20 18:00:10 i remember dialing up with trumpet winsock. and how amazing it was to be on a LAN Jan 20 18:00:10 :P Jan 20 18:00:28 as in, with an ip address etc Jan 20 18:00:36 * johnx remembers re-compiling most of RH5.1 by hand Jan 20 18:02:37 i remember when Microsoft tried to prevent TCP/IP from being implemented on it's piece of shit operating system. Jan 20 18:02:40 johnx: oh, looks a familiar hobby, good! :) Jan 20 18:03:14 zenvoid, every couple years or so I seem to end up re-compiling a distro by hand for some reason that seems good at the time Jan 20 18:04:34 johnx: now that I know I'm not the only one in the world I really feel much better, man :) Jan 20 18:05:06 I was trying to test gnome 0.54 and needed newer versions of libs. why were you recompiling everything? Jan 20 18:05:48 johnx: ..... I don't know :S Jan 20 18:06:03 my friend in high school thought I was crazy Jan 20 18:06:32 took me more than a day to recompile XFree86 3.3.x Jan 20 18:08:08 the knowledge adquired by compiling things, or assembling a distro from scratch, is always very handy Jan 20 18:08:16 yes Jan 20 18:08:30 maybe that's my reason: just to learn and see what happens Jan 20 18:08:30 it's kind of a rite of passage though :) Jan 20 18:08:42 haha :) Jan 20 18:09:00 something to do once and then realize why you don't do it all the time :) Jan 20 18:10:26 in my case I need to do it two or three times, but yes, agree :) Jan 20 18:12:11 johnx: oh, my mom knows COBOL too xD Jan 20 18:12:26 ahaha. awesome Jan 20 18:12:36 I bet my mom could beat your mom at tetris Jan 20 18:12:39 :D Jan 20 18:13:33 I don't think so cause my mom is descriptive geometry professor :D Jan 20 18:14:08 aaah, interesting. My mom has a masters degree in math though. Might be fun :) Jan 20 18:14:23 johnx: battle of titans :) Jan 20 18:15:06 XD funny thread Jan 20 18:25:12 * Guest90884 [W2I=000:u:0:000:] Jan 20 18:25:26 Hello ! Jan 20 18:25:34 hello :) Jan 20 18:25:45 mornin' Khertan_n810 and lardman :) Jan 20 18:25:47 Just a question about gtk.Image Jan 20 18:26:08 how can i know the space available for my pixbuf to render Jan 20 18:26:10 "morning" all :) Jan 20 18:26:33 *cough* morning *cough* ;P Jan 20 18:26:44 if size_request answer me tghe size of the actual displayed pixbuf ? Jan 20 18:26:47 qwerty12: ;) Jan 20 18:27:51 no idea ? Jan 20 18:27:59 Khertan, the first question I have is what are you doing Jan 20 18:28:26 diplaying a jpg file in mNote Jan 20 18:28:26 s Jan 20 18:28:36 Khertan, first answer would be GTK_WIDGET(...)->allocation Jan 20 18:29:03 allocation return me 1,1 Jan 20 18:29:06 Khertan, so you want to scale the shown image to the size of the GtkImage? Jan 20 18:29:11 in width,height Jan 20 18:29:11 Khertan, when did you call it? Jan 20 18:29:16 inz: yep Jan 20 18:29:34 inz after he gtk.Image.show() Jan 20 18:29:52 far away after Jan 20 18:30:00 Khertan, you probably need to do it in (or after) "size-allocate" signal Jan 20 18:30:32 hi inz Jan 20 18:30:40 Khertan, one problem is that the image set for a GtkImage changes the size the widget requests Jan 20 18:30:47 Hi timeless Jan 20 18:30:47 re Jan 20 18:31:56 Johnx: fwiw i just spent an hour or more pointing out problems in hildondesktop to the layout owner Jan 20 18:32:05 inz: hum ... setting while size-allocate signal will not help as when i want to change the image i want to resize it before Jan 20 18:32:32 this is a while(True) problem Jan 20 18:32:55 timelE61i, I'll take that as another vote for mer to 'do its own thing' :) Jan 20 18:33:23 Khertan, after the size-allocate has been sent, ->allocation should be correct Jan 20 18:34:34 pLease Jan 20 18:34:56 :D Jan 20 18:35:02 * johnx gets unlazy Jan 20 18:35:50 is the rss reader source online somewhere? Jan 20 18:36:02 * lardman is looking for an example of using libconic Jan 20 18:36:11 lardman, i believe so. Jan 20 18:36:12 if nokia's ideas are good, copying them shouldn't be too hard Jan 20 18:36:25 lardman, diablo one: http://repository.maemo.org/pool/diablo/free/o/ (search rss) Jan 20 18:36:29 lardman, IIRC, it started life as liferea Jan 20 18:36:42 mxr diablo has feedreader Jan 20 18:36:53 In case you prefer the xref Jan 20 18:36:54 qwerty12: cool thanks, I was looking at svn repo Jan 20 18:37:22 timelE61i, I understand if you can't answer this, but could you comment on whether fremantle hildon-desktop requires clutter? Jan 20 18:37:36 I'm not sure what the current public story is about src control Jan 20 18:37:56 But there's currently a discussion about getting a better story Jan 20 18:38:24 Johnx: i'm fairly certain i couldn't comment on that Jan 20 18:38:31 Does it in the sdk? Jan 20 18:38:34 inz: thx for help Jan 20 18:38:42 timelE61i, not presently Jan 20 18:39:00 yeah, don't worry about it. don't want you to get in trouble Jan 20 18:39:08 Does anything? Jan 20 18:39:28 To be honest, i'm not really sure what clutter is Jan 20 18:39:54 ini ve understand the problem now ... it was a thread blocking the gtk event loop ... so gtk.Image was never sending size-allocate signal Jan 20 18:39:59 Wrt xref for fremantle, we got an xref for this week, but searching failed, not sure why yet Jan 20 18:40:06 Glimpse complained Jan 20 18:40:37 My box is still w/o any network connectivity, so i can't try there Jan 20 18:40:46 timelE61i, seems to be a library to easily draw things (widgets, pictures) in 3D using hardware acceleration Jan 20 18:41:17 johnx: i think of it more like a animation engine really Jan 20 18:41:26 a little like flash Jan 20 18:41:33 for shiny effects Jan 20 18:41:35 hmmm, guess that makes more sense Jan 20 18:41:54 If you could use it and were nokia and wanted to make something shiny. Where would you use it? Jan 20 18:42:09 Heck, if you were ms or apple where did you use that? Jan 20 18:42:50 the first boot wizard. Jan 20 18:42:51 heh, the launcher and app switcher :) yeah, Stskeeps said that earlier. Jan 20 18:42:53 ;) Jan 20 18:43:06 * johnx wants bash bindings for clutter Jan 20 18:43:23 fWiw, i have no access to anything atm Jan 20 18:43:43 johnx: https://wiki.maemo.org/Task:Maemo_roadmap/Fremantle#UI_Framework Jan 20 18:43:49 But it seems like there's some vaguely logical possibilities Jan 20 18:44:16 johnx: it's basically replacing hildon-desktop, using matchbox2, and libnotify Jan 20 18:44:23 Stskeeps, ah! hadn't seen that. I figured you were just using intuition Jan 20 18:44:24 or whatever the notify it is Jan 20 18:44:43 johnx: nop, straight fact and observing how nokia acted :P Jan 20 18:45:16 my intuition was nagging me about h-d probably moving to clutter, but I didn't see confirmation until now Jan 20 18:45:36 ah well, Nokia will just have to see what they're missing then :) Jan 20 18:45:38 well since they "forward ported h-d to fremantle apis" as a gesture, it means the code is cut off ;) Jan 20 18:45:39 stskeeps: you cheated and read the plan? Jan 20 18:46:05 timelE61i: well this was together with tendancies seen on SVN, so :P Jan 20 18:46:14 but yeah, plan definately confirmed things Jan 20 18:46:27 and stalked the coders Jan 20 18:46:38 Such an unfair advantage over the rest of us Jan 20 18:46:50 ;-) Jan 20 18:47:01 it's cheaper than getting a random nokia coder drunk Jan 20 18:47:01 :P Jan 20 18:47:18 * RST38h moos softly Jan 20 18:47:23 Fwiw, i'm told the browser team doesn't run desktop for testing Jan 20 18:47:24 hi rst Jan 20 18:47:32 ehlo woglinde Jan 20 18:47:33 Khertan, beware, gtk_image_set_pixbuf causes size-allocation signal Jan 20 18:47:33 anyone know how to use conic? Jan 20 18:47:44 timelE61i, they can borrow ours pretty soon :) Jan 20 18:47:49 Lardman: microb uses it Jan 20 18:48:06 Johnx: here are their requirements: Jan 20 18:48:12 1. Doesn't crash Jan 20 18:48:18 2. Doesn't crash Jan 20 18:48:21 timelE61i: yeah, that's probably a better bet than feed-reader, feed-reader connects at startup, which is not what I want Jan 20 18:48:27 3. Can launch browser Jan 20 18:48:28 johnx: has our h-d crash yet? :P Jan 20 18:48:35 except for a status applet doing it Jan 20 18:48:41 I think that's all Jan 20 18:48:47 Stskeeps, not that I know of, even on 640x480 :) Jan 20 18:48:56 johnx: except for that weird dbus-glib bug Jan 20 18:49:12 Feel free to guess why they stopped using h-d Jan 20 18:49:25 Khertan, this seems to work relatively well: Jan 20 18:49:27 Arrg Jan 20 18:49:33 timelE61i, dur...because they don't like the color? Jan 20 18:49:35 N9x0 picture leaked: http://www.blogcdn.com/www.engadget.com/media/2009/01/1-20-09-lg-handsets.jpg =) Jan 20 18:49:37 Khertan, http://pastebin.com/d4a43863f Jan 20 18:49:52 RST38h, from the bottom of my heart... Jan 20 18:49:55 RST38h, zark off Jan 20 18:50:03 Lardman: search mxr for the conic header in microb-eal Jan 20 18:50:10 * RST38h grins at johnx and cackles evilly Jan 20 18:50:21 RST38h: i can't take this much disappointment in a day :( Jan 20 18:50:22 :P Jan 20 18:50:33 oh, 3 days ago I had my blog's birthday :) Jan 20 18:50:45 RST38h: check your e-mail :) Jan 20 18:50:49 I don't think anyone will argue that the clickwheel is a good idea Jan 20 18:50:57 clickwheel++ Jan 20 18:51:00 wazd: Seen it - it is a png though =) Jan 20 18:51:12 Aren't those patented? Jan 20 18:51:16 RST38h: oh, crap Jan 20 18:51:23 RST38h: sorry :) Jan 20 18:51:26 * GeneralAntilles runs at RST38h with a knife. Jan 20 18:51:28 ~mxr Jan 20 18:51:32 mighty mouse style 'mini trackball' would be even better, but those seem to have longevity issues Jan 20 18:51:36 I swear, I though I was going to click on something real. Jan 20 18:51:37 GeneralAntilles, he get you too? Jan 20 18:51:40 wazd: But it looks cute =) Sure those buttons where blue? Jan 20 18:51:43 were Jan 20 18:51:44 Mxr.maemo.org/diablo Jan 20 18:51:57 where's that infobot? Jan 20 18:51:59 General: that was the purpose Jan 20 18:52:02 * RST38h hides Jan 20 18:52:10 timelE61i: thanks Jan 20 18:52:10 Enter conic in the first box and microb-eal in the second Jan 20 18:52:18 I think there's a pretty good case that a clickwheel is the same thing you see on every $5 mouse Jan 20 18:52:37 RST38h: http://www.theonion.com/content/news_briefs/bush_dies_peacefully_in_his Jan 20 18:52:37 johnx: it is a bit simpler and cheaper actually Jan 20 18:52:59 johnx: I have got one on the development board Jan 20 18:53:05 RST38h, definitely. and more reliable. but did you ever try a mighty mouse in photo shop or similar? Jan 20 18:53:17 Naah, I do not do Mac Jan 20 18:53:20 RST38h: mmm, maybe I have a photo with wrong white balance :) Jan 20 18:53:24 No Photoshop either... Jan 20 18:53:24 it's very, very handy Jan 20 18:53:44 * lardman wonders if he should wait on a semaphore and then trigger it from the conic callback to make his code synchronous Jan 20 18:53:46 wazd: Does not have to be the same as the photo, may look nicer with whiter keys Jan 20 18:53:48 it's plain bt or usb. supported well in linux. i might pick one up Jan 20 18:53:51 johnx: mighty mouse is piece of shit, sorry for that :D Jan 20 18:54:13 wazd, yeah, tends to get dirty quick. really nice while it lasts :) Jan 20 18:54:14 Problem with the mighty mouse is that the scrolling nipple clogs up with crap Jan 20 18:54:15 johnx: I've tried it, it became dirty in 4 days Jan 20 18:54:17 Then you can clean it. Jan 20 18:54:18 johnx: it has got a nipple for the trackwheel though Jan 20 18:54:28 Personally, I recommend the MX Revolution. Jan 20 18:54:48 I hate hardware that I have to use with cases, gloves, masks and bio-suits Jan 20 18:55:03 meh, for a plain scroll mouse I prefer a 'microsoft basic' Jan 20 18:55:03 Sts: that would be a disappointment Jan 20 18:55:31 RST38h: I'll make them light gray then Jan 20 18:55:41 * RST38h actually agrees on MX Revolution. Had an older cheaper Logitech mouse of the same shape, worked like a charm Jan 20 18:55:46 I like my Microsoft Habu :) Jan 20 18:56:02 wazd: either that or light wheat, whatever looks better on them Jan 20 18:56:14 gotta say. ms makes really solid hardware. too bad they won't just stick to what they're good at :/ Jan 20 18:56:21 RST38h: i was watching for the missiles firing from the rooftops of washington when they flew away in a helicopter, but life just isn't fair like that. Jan 20 18:56:36 Sts: You know the most surprising part? Jan 20 18:56:43 he went without kicking and screaming? Jan 20 18:57:11 Sts: Quite often when we went to lunch back at UMD, his helicopter flew right over our heads Jan 20 18:57:20 ah. Jan 20 18:57:25 the surprising part was you didn't Jan 20 18:57:26 :P Jan 20 18:57:35 Sts: Could probably shoot it with a handgun if there were any use for that Jan 20 18:57:58 yeah, better bush than cheney :> Jan 20 18:58:24 Sts: Anyways, this page is over, I am sure the next one will be just as "exciting" Jan 20 18:58:27 right. back to HCI reading. direct manipulation and instrumentness. yay. :P Jan 20 18:59:00 RST38h: done Jan 20 18:59:39 Better Bush than Al Gore xD Jan 20 18:59:51 And I'm serial! Jan 20 19:00:41 RST38h, the scroll wheel on the MX is the best. Jan 20 19:01:23 RST38h: btw there really was a modification with blue buttons :) Jan 20 19:01:44 qwerty12: how the heck did you get that much light? Jan 20 19:01:44 General: But does it really check your email? =) Jan 20 19:01:47 Meiz_n810: python-gtk2, python-osso, python-hildon on armel now btw, feel free to test :P Jan 20 19:02:00 Stskeeps: ookay Jan 20 19:02:01 if you can find some packages from extras requiring just that Jan 20 19:02:07 wazd: Should have just pictured a Leningrad48 PCB =) Jan 20 19:02:07 GeneralAntilles: The only logitech thing I have is Nano mouse, which was kidnapped by my GF :D Jan 20 19:02:33 mousenapper1 Jan 20 19:02:46 111!!11eleventeen Jan 20 19:03:06 Meiz_n810, it's a joke, i use a n800 remember? :p (but the image is real) Jan 20 19:03:08 wazd: Got it! Going to put it in as soon as I reboot to Linux Jan 20 19:03:31 RST38h: fine) Jan 20 19:04:22 johnx: I actually don't need it right now since I use wacom :) Jan 20 19:04:34 qwerty12_N800: cool :P Jan 20 19:04:37 Wacom is the best mouse pointer in the world) Jan 20 19:07:10 johnx, like i said, clutter == game engine Jan 20 19:07:57 lcuk, I thought about saying that, but I don't think it would have lead to more understanding :) Jan 20 19:08:30 heh, timeless was right as well, similar to flash with stages and actors Jan 20 19:09:26 well then for now it looks like polishing up h-d and giving you plenty of time to complete liq-laucher :) Jan 20 19:09:41 lcuk: afaik clutter != game engine Jan 20 19:09:58 lcuk: clutter is more like flash animations for glib Jan 20 19:10:04 RST38h, it lets you throw models around the screen, it runs on a timeline and lets you interact Jan 20 19:10:13 lcuk: flash. Jan 20 19:10:14 the onmly thing it needs is a score table (which you can creat) Jan 20 19:10:18 hi lcuk Jan 20 19:10:35 lcuk: naah, throwing models on timeline basis does not make a game really Jan 20 19:10:37 RST38h, there's a good argument that flash's best use is as a game engine Jan 20 19:10:44 * timelE61i knows very little about flash Jan 20 19:10:45 what does? Jan 20 19:11:34 RST38h, if i wanted to make a 3d game in linux i would choose clutter Jan 20 19:11:35 johnx: have you played dick's decent to hell? Jan 20 19:11:46 timelE61i, not yet :) Jan 20 19:12:02 lcuk: You would choose OpenGL Jan 20 19:12:08 lcuk: Clutter is 2D Jan 20 19:12:38 gl is too low level Jan 20 19:12:42 good point lol, i keep thinking about its underpinnings with gl Jan 20 19:12:50 johnx: I don't know enough about flash but from what I know (timeline, vectors, javascript) it is best suited for a very specific type of games Jan 20 19:12:51 Most people wrap it Jan 20 19:13:08 timelE61i, yeah and that wrapping is the game engine Jan 20 19:13:10 johnx: it will not do as a generic game engine Jan 20 19:13:38 johnx: myst-like adventures it will do very nicely though Jan 20 19:14:08 RST38h, my point being that it's more useful as 'some sort of game engine' than most other things it's used for Jan 20 19:14:16 http://alternativaplatform.com/ru/alternativa3d/ Jan 20 19:14:31 timelE61i, fun game. will get back to it when I have more time Jan 20 19:14:31 flash 3D game engine) Jan 20 19:14:44 he didn''t want to write a game engine, just a game :? Jan 20 19:15:14 * Guest90884 [W2I=000:u:0:000:] Jan 20 19:15:29 hi again Jan 20 19:15:50 hold on a minute Jan 20 19:15:58 RST38h: originally, flash used no 2d/3d acceleration. did they ever get around to supporting that? Jan 20 19:16:03 if clutter is 3d only how the hell are we gonna get coverflow? Jan 20 19:16:07 2d Jan 20 19:16:18 is there a way to understand on device why my icon isn t displayed in the taskbar ? Jan 20 19:16:23 its 3d Jan 20 19:16:23 lcuk, 2.5D? Jan 20 19:16:39 johnx, i was looking at it and everything has xyz Jan 20 19:16:40 pupnik_: Flash 10 has 3D acceleration now Jan 20 19:16:52 and however many rotations are required Jan 20 19:16:57 wazd, on linux too? Jan 20 19:17:09 johnx: don't know) Jan 20 19:17:18 johnx: whatever xD Jan 20 19:17:40 ~lart flash on linux Jan 20 19:17:49 when flash playerf will be open sourced it could be interesting ... else it s doesn t Jan 20 19:17:58 flash didn't even implement the concept of layers in a way that would allow for fast compositing in software Jan 20 19:18:02 I wish it wasn't around so people would be more motivated to work on alternatives Jan 20 19:18:25 if IE didn't suck, I'm sure FF wouldn't be nearly as far along as it is Jan 20 19:18:32 technically if it was an open spec and implementation then we wouldnt need alteratives Jan 20 19:18:48 i thought flash protocol was published Jan 20 19:18:54 it is Jan 20 19:18:59 possibly, but everyone is playing catchup Jan 20 19:19:12 the version 6 Jan 20 19:19:22 iSn't silverlight an open spec? Jan 20 19:19:38 So was java/classpath and clr Jan 20 19:20:28 heck, ms's office xml is open :) Jan 20 19:22:19 well, there's open and there's free... Jan 20 19:24:34 iirc c++ is nonfree Jan 20 19:24:47 The others iirc are all free Jan 20 19:25:01 (sgml is another nonfree(@ Jan 20 19:25:23 I was under the impression that office xml was patent encumbered Jan 20 19:25:24 Interesting stuff about Hildon: http://osnews.com/story/20804/Ubuntu_Mobile_Looks_at_Qt Jan 20 19:25:35 though maybe the argument was it was just a pain Jan 20 19:25:39 pupnik: no idea, my guess is "no" Jan 20 19:25:50 Well, you don't have to pay for a spec Jan 20 19:26:04 Sgml costs more than ten usd iirc Jan 20 19:26:40 Jaffa: The Hilton framework! Jan 20 19:26:55 RST38h: Branches around the world... Jan 20 19:27:05 timelE61i, I meant 'free' in the RMS sense of the word :) Jan 20 19:27:15 now that sounds tm encumbered :) Jan 20 19:27:17 any bluemaemo users here? Jan 20 19:28:16 johnx: RMS has pretty much marginalized himself with his sense of the word Jan 20 19:28:38 RST38h, yeah, but there is value in what he says Jan 20 19:28:49 RST38h, discounting all of his ideas would be a silly mistake Jan 20 19:29:24 johnx: his main idea was to create a viral license that forces anyone reusing licensed code to release his own code under the same license Jan 20 19:30:06 RST38h, I'm failing to see exactly how that's a bad thing. seems to have worked out rather nicely Jan 20 19:31:32 Jaffa, I like the guy comparing the iPod Touch's ARM11 to the Freerunner's ARM9. Jan 20 19:32:23 * zenvoid thinks the same than johnx Jan 20 19:32:42 Oh god. Xbox LIVE went political. Jan 20 19:33:09 johnx: his definition of thus licensed code as "truly free" is obviously bogus Jan 20 19:33:17 GeneralAntilles, yeah, I love the 'what boots faster' pissing contest. who the *$% reboots their phone/mp3 player/tablet all the time? Jan 20 19:33:37 johnx: because free means no strings attached and this stuff attaches lots of strings Jan 20 19:33:45 johnx, for serious. Jan 20 19:34:20 RST38h: GPL tries to avoid the loose of freedoms Jan 20 19:34:24 johnx: whether it is good or bad I have no idea though, depends on your outlook Jan 20 19:34:35 RST38h: it depends on how you look at it Jan 20 19:34:41 RST38h, he took some liberties with language :) maybe it would be more accurate to say that a codebase is guaranteed free over its life Jan 20 19:35:09 johnx: not really, it is guaranteed to be GPL-licensed, not free Jan 20 19:35:24 s/free/RMS free/ :) Jan 20 19:36:18 and given that we're all talking about maemo linux not maemo netbsd I am inclined to call the GPL a more successful license Jan 20 19:36:44 GNU/maemo linux ;) Jan 20 19:37:00 heh Jan 20 19:37:13 anyways, . back to bash'ing Jan 20 19:37:38 im gonna release the next version of liqbase under the microsoft open license Jan 20 19:37:38 um. Did anyone talk about the iphone recently? Jan 20 19:37:46 * lcuk cowers Jan 20 19:37:52 lcuk, that's ok. we'll fork from your existing code :) Jan 20 19:37:54 Hi all, would like to know if there is some work going on to have maemo on beagle board. I am a newbie... would like to contribute in some way to it Jan 20 19:37:58 Because that's bsd or rms-free (i.e. Free of rms) Jan 20 19:38:08 johnx, ive been waiting for that for a while ;) Jan 20 19:38:16 doesnt look like anyone is taking me up on it Jan 20 19:38:45 kozak: http://wiki.maemo.org/Mer_Blueprint would probably apply :) Jan 20 19:39:05 i made a fork after the summit, then brought it back in and then split again Jan 20 19:39:09 it should be trivial to put the maemo platform (hildon, etc) on top Jan 20 19:39:13 kozak, well, the people inside Nokia claim to be putting some work into it, but the Mer project is also working on bringing the Maemo UI to an ubuntu distribution Jan 20 19:39:44 maemo for my x41 suits me, its a touchable OS on a touchable device Jan 20 19:40:06 i might rename liqbase Jan 20 19:40:11 lcuk, hmm? you're already running mer or something else? Jan 20 19:40:31 GeneralAntilles: btw, are we hijacking potential maemo platform users with Mer? :P i get worried about our behaviour at times :) I guess nokia's interest is in the use of their apis across the scope and everything Jan 20 19:40:33 no johnx, its not "there" for any device fully yet but it will be Jan 20 19:40:46 yes I did see mer being mentioned in the IRC maybe ydays ... Jan 20 19:40:51 balls, libbacon exists Jan 20 19:41:13 Stskeeps, bunch of damn spammers. . . . Jan 20 19:41:19 GeneralAntilles: yeah. :P Jan 20 19:41:24 baconui Jan 20 19:41:29 Stskeeps, well, Mer's doing what Nokia should be doing. Jan 20 19:41:40 Spreading "Maemo" to other devices and platforms. Jan 20 19:42:06 hm steak Jan 20 19:42:13 johnx, in all seriousness i most likely wont be using gpl for the next version Jan 20 19:42:16 Stskeeps, well, I think it would be different if Nokia had released a version of Maemo that could be easily run on the beagle Jan 20 19:42:24 So as long as you're not causing major breaks. :shrug:. Jan 20 19:42:27 since its bad form for a library to be gpl :) Jan 20 19:42:36 would like to know the reason why a different UI Mer> Is it that the maemo dist. is completely owned by Nokia or something Jan 20 19:42:38 Whilst Mer is the last, best hope for Fremantle components on N8x0 and is API compatible with the current version of Maemo, it ain't a problem :-) Jan 20 19:42:38 lcuk, aaaah, so lgpl? Jan 20 19:43:02 kozak: it's not a different UI really - it's same underlying core, - and we just have people experimenting with other UI types Jan 20 19:43:02 kozak: cos wazd isn't hindered by N-Series brand conventions or focus groups. Jan 20 19:43:06 looks that way yeah, if it stays as linkable then i might stick with gpl, but if its a dynamic lib ill do it lgpl Jan 20 19:43:06 kozak, no, they're moving to Clutter. Jan 20 19:43:17 Plus those other two points. Jan 20 19:43:22 kozak, the basic GUI (hildon-desktop, matchbox) is the same as Nokia has currently released Jan 20 19:43:23 kozak: and the traditional Maemo themes are properitary :P Jan 20 19:43:35 oh ok Jan 20 19:43:56 kozak: we're actually using a more recent hildon-desktop than latest OS version for the tablets Jan 20 19:44:01 kozak, just because theres something available does not mean its got to be used. someone has had to pick up the reins and get moving Jan 20 19:44:03 kozak, are you referring to the mockups? Jan 20 19:44:26 * lcuk is using the most latest UI of all Jan 20 19:44:27 think we kind of overwhelmed him O_o; Jan 20 19:44:43 johnx: Yes the mock ups Jan 20 19:44:43 lcuk, late in that you missed your release date? :P Jan 20 19:45:00 heh yeah johnx Jan 20 19:45:09 kozak: to get technical, if you want to port Mer and maemo UI platform to beagleboard, get Ubuntu Jaunty running on it first - from there it's trivial. Jan 20 19:45:12 but that wasnt decided until very recently to be generic Jan 20 19:45:38 i went to the summit with ideas to build some apps and a nice way to draw them Jan 20 19:45:47 kozak, well, Nokia will be going a different direction with fremantle and most likely basing their replacement for hildon-desktop on clutter. clutter will likely require hardware 3D acceleration to work well Jan 20 19:46:04 and we'd like to run on platforms where 3D hardware acceleration isn't necessarily available Jan 20 19:46:23 dare i say it will also prefer an atom cpu Jan 20 19:46:30 eww Jan 20 19:46:30 x86 Jan 20 19:46:33 lcuk, what? Jan 20 19:46:42 who owns openedhand? Jan 20 19:46:54 intel Jan 20 19:46:55 lcuk: thanks for the email Jan 20 19:46:59 :D Jan 20 19:47:14 I do see a point in lcuk with x86 Jan 20 19:47:26 i thought it was most interesting lardman, i love finding out how projects start out Jan 20 19:47:52 please not x86 Jan 20 19:47:59 use MIPS if you don't like ARM Jan 20 19:48:01 lcuk, huh. forgot about that Jan 20 19:48:02 MIPS is nice Jan 20 19:48:08 luke-jr: http://bsd.tspre.org/~stskeeps/mer-virtualbox2.png :> Jan 20 19:48:12 the decisions made right at the start effect the eventual outcome Jan 20 19:48:21 sParc! Jan 20 19:48:25 MIPS is dead slow Jan 20 19:48:35 compared to ARM anyway Jan 20 19:48:38 ok, ive got an sql file but no sqlite command line tool Jan 20 19:48:46 RST38h: compared to x86, anything is fast Jan 20 19:48:51 does sqlite3_exec() take a massive string? Jan 20 19:49:08 luke-jr, as long as you're talking clock-for-clock or performance-per-watt Jan 20 19:49:10 iT should iirc Jan 20 19:49:17 * lcuk is close to testing out his calendar Jan 20 19:49:18 johnx: of course Jan 20 19:49:20 lcuk sqlite has it Jan 20 19:49:43 sqlite3 command itself has it build in Jan 20 19:49:44 woglinde, restricted subset of commands, i do everything on tablet Jan 20 19:49:48 Stskeeps: tongith I'll look at building HAM in mer, and creating a git branch or something containing your patch, default to no legalese etc. Jan 20 19:49:55 Jaffa: alright Jan 20 19:49:56 lcuk hehe lite Jan 20 19:50:00 will Obama ban x86? Jan 20 19:50:01 Jaffa: there's a working BZR branch on launchpad Jan 20 19:50:10 Stskeeps: o Jan 20 19:50:14 as in Jan 20 19:50:17 it needs to be Merized. Jan 20 19:50:18 Stskeeps: of HAM? Cool. Does it need further love? Jan 20 19:50:26 no Stskeeps it was upgrading sqlite that fucked up my system last night re gcc4 Jan 20 19:50:44 im not installing anything else on this machine until libliqbase is released Jan 20 19:50:51 Jaffa: https://code.launchpad.net/~mer-committers/m-r/hildon-application-manager - it needs adaptation into being a good citizen in a ubuntu system Jan 20 19:51:16 as in, not relying on ~user and such Jan 20 19:51:18 or inittab Jan 20 19:51:20 * lcuk might be waiting a very long time unless i can warm fingers up Jan 20 19:51:31 luke: Are you sure about x86 being slower than mips or arm Jan 20 19:51:39 Stskeeps: and that includes the patch you sent me the other night? Jan 20 19:51:47 Jaffa: yessir, it compiles Jan 20 19:51:49 RST38h: on a theoretical level, at least Jan 20 19:51:55 Stskeeps: cool. I'll have a look Jan 20 19:51:56 RST38h, re: ARM vs MIPS, depends on the CPU of course Jan 20 19:52:10 luke-jr, well ill install a theoretical processor and do some theoretical work then Jan 20 19:52:11 RST38h: x86 is so slow, modern x86 CPUs are microcode running on RISC Jan 20 19:52:23 Stskeeps: is there a policy on #define things which might work on both in Mer & Maemo? Jan 20 19:53:01 Jaffa: must honestly admit we've done things the quick and dirty way Jan 20 19:53:25 ie, we don't have #ifdef MER :P Jan 20 19:53:37 right Jan 20 19:54:21 luke: Have you ever been interested in checking actual speed comparisons of x86 vs arm vs mips at about the same clock rate? Jan 20 19:54:57 RST38h: not really Jan 20 19:55:07 johnx: Given ARM and MIPS CPUs at the same clock rate and the same SDRAM clock, MIPS is much slower. Jan 20 19:55:34 johnx: Does not depend on the actual CPU model as the basic instructions sets are the same Jan 20 19:56:02 kozak: did we overwhelm you completely? :) Jan 20 19:56:16 luke: I suggest you use www.google.com to locate actual speed comparisons and check them out. It will save you from accidentally destroying your reputation ahead of the time. Jan 20 19:56:26 well Jan 20 19:56:31 RST38h: practical speed comparisons are not important Jan 20 19:56:42 if MIPS was as popular as x86, it would be faster Jan 20 19:56:52 luke: Ok, have a good day now. Jan 20 19:56:58 plus, x86 is just ugly Jan 20 19:57:02 Oh yeah... this is the second of the IRCs I joned and got involved with... Jan 20 19:57:34 Stskeeps: but better late than never :) Jan 20 19:57:35 * luke-jr has about 5 minutes before he needs to go back to the practical world ☹ Jan 20 19:58:22 hi there Jan 20 19:59:00 Hey, gnuton. Jan 20 19:59:12 Hola GeneralAntilles! :D Jan 20 19:59:19 Stskeeps, quick and dirty way is the only way Jan 20 19:59:52 lcuk, that's not what *she* said Jan 20 20:00:07 :O Jan 20 20:00:10 * GeneralAntilles shakes his head. Jan 20 20:00:20 sorry, couldn't help it this time Jan 20 20:00:51 You Mer folk just can't help sapping the substance out of everything, can you? :D Jan 20 20:01:12 GeneralAntilles, mmmm....sap Jan 20 20:01:36 wood. Jan 20 20:02:01 i just lost my happiness in that moment, RST38h. Jan 20 20:02:02 :P Jan 20 20:02:15 hmmm Jan 20 20:02:47 Ha Jan 20 20:02:55 seriously, someone with ARM disassembly skill needs to look on the problem on ARMv5t causing the bugs on there Jan 20 20:02:56 GeneralAntilles, though honestly, if we took this 100% seriously I think we'd have given up by now Jan 20 20:03:10 Sts: What problem? Jan 20 20:03:25 johnx, the internet is serious business you know. Jan 20 20:03:34 it is? Jan 20 20:03:40 and if anyone with ARM disassembly skills needs access to a live armv5 machine to test with talk to me for a shell account Jan 20 20:03:47 RST38h: unimplicit casting in assignment from signed to unsigned integers cause corruption in structures Jan 20 20:04:01 and reverse Jan 20 20:04:18 effectively causing sapwood engine to send shit to the server, which goes into a frenzy Jan 20 20:05:17 Sts: explicit casting you mean? Jan 20 20:05:33 RST38h: as in unsigned int b; int a; b = a; Jan 20 20:05:43 Sts: Can you show me the code where it happens? Jan 20 20:05:52 sec Jan 20 20:05:59 Sts: The casting itself should not cause any problems but what you do with the casted value may Jan 20 20:06:53 http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~carsten-munk/m-r/sapwood/annotate/head%3A/engine/sapwood-pixmap.c , lines 109-114, and then passing it into pixbuf_proto_request causes havoc Jan 20 20:07:12 structs in http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~carsten-munk/m-r/sapwood/annotate/head%3A/protocol/sapwood-proto.h Jan 20 20:08:02 checking Jan 20 20:08:04 it -only- happens on armv5t (770, zaurus) Jan 20 20:08:09 wazd: Around? Jan 20 20:08:16 RST38h: yep Jan 20 20:09:26 wazd: is it possible to round front corners of the Speccy and somehow make the back stand out when shown on grayish backgrounds? Jan 20 20:10:51 RST38h: Think so) Jan 20 20:11:54 hey Meiz_n810 :) Jan 20 20:12:08 hi johnx Jan 20 20:12:43 mmmm sqlite is case sensitive internally Jan 20 20:13:21 Sts: All right, let us debug it Jan 20 20:13:40 Sts: In the pixbuf_proto_request() function, write the following in the first lines: Jan 20 20:15:21 Sts: {int j;for(j=0;j<32;++j) printf("0x02X ",((unsigned char *)req)[j]);printf("\nsizeof=%d\n",sizeof(*req));return(0); } Jan 20 20:15:36 Sts: Run it on both CPUs and post results Jan 20 20:16:22 I should be able to do that here since Stskeeps has exams to study for :) Jan 20 20:17:43 Ok, as long as you have both CPUs to test on Jan 20 20:17:58 check :) Jan 20 20:18:13 n800 / omap2420 and zaurus / PXA270 Jan 20 20:18:44 RST38h: would = {0}; assignment potentially be bad, btw? Jan 20 20:18:48 I expect the sizeof to be the same but the contents will probably differ, if THAT is indeed the cause of the crash Jan 20 20:18:48 i never saw that before Jan 20 20:19:00 Sts: Where? Jan 20 20:19:19 when the buf that is being passed into pixbuf_proto_request is created Jan 20 20:19:22 Stskeeps, common way to init a structure to all zeros Jan 20 20:19:26 lines 94 Jan 20 20:19:28 Ah, there Jan 20 20:19:30 mmk Jan 20 20:19:47 Well, I think the newer C standard allows this Jan 20 20:20:15 (getting setup to build sapwood) Jan 20 20:20:32 not sure if it will clear the whole struct or just the first element though Jan 20 20:20:40 its the whole block Jan 20 20:24:03 http://msdn.microsoft.com/ja-jp/library/81k8cwsz(VS.80).aspx Jan 20 20:24:14 If initializer-list has fewer values than an aggregate type, the remaining members or elements of the aggregate type are initialized to 0. Jan 20 20:24:23 (thank you microsoft for clearest explanation) Jan 20 20:25:06 Lcuk: ms / borland historically have good compiler docs Jan 20 20:25:21 lcuk: Doesn't it mean I can do {}; ? :) Jan 20 20:25:38 the definition has to be recursively sound and within each { } level it must fill the whole defined size, because it would make for silly compiler errors if you extended the struct without extending each init thereof Jan 20 20:25:48 RST38h, does this look right or am I being dense? http://rafb.net/p/MmmRgQ92.html Jan 20 20:26:43 timelE61i, historically yeah, something screwed up with .net though (especially in the documentation) Jan 20 20:28:23 (...compiling...) Jan 20 20:28:40 johnx: if it passes compilation it should be fine :) Jan 20 20:29:04 just wanted to make sure I wasn't misinterpreting your instructions Jan 20 20:29:09 johnx: Do you specify architecture in your compiler options? Jan 20 20:29:28 it's compiled for armv5te in both cases Jan 20 20:29:41 and historically the same binary behaves differently on different systems Jan 20 20:29:54 on which one does it crash again? Jan 20 20:30:00 armv5te Jan 20 20:30:30 on which one it does not crash then? Jan 20 20:30:39 armv6 Jan 20 20:31:03 also, a note: it behaves correctly on qemu emulating an armv5te Jan 20 20:31:19 hehe Jan 20 20:31:34 my guess is that is has something to do with an unaligned memory access Jan 20 20:32:15 think it might be some problem with compiler optimizations? Jan 20 20:32:25 johnx: i tried with noopt as well Jan 20 20:33:12 RST38h: oh, and it doesn't crash, just corrupts the buf Jan 20 20:33:16 johnx: no idea Jan 20 20:33:18 johnx: does it crash on PXA270? Jan 20 20:33:35 johnx: going to see what is in that buffer first, and read on armv6 in the meanwhile Jan 20 20:33:37 RST38h, compiled on armv6. for completeness sakes I'm running a native build on/for both Jan 20 20:33:37 gah! at case sensitive sqlite Jan 20 20:34:14 Ok, ARMV5 is basically thumb and clz instruction Jan 20 20:34:49 (buf corruption: ->length ends up in _pad1) Jan 20 20:35:00 johnx: you may have data alignment problems Jan 20 20:35:04 rst and bx Jan 20 20:35:36 woglinde: aka thumb. Jan 20 20:35:52 Ok, it IS a data alignment problem Jan 20 20:35:59 RST38h: ok, check your mail Jan 20 20:36:21 Let us quote from armv6 white paper: Current versions of the architecture require a number of instructions to manage unaligned Jan 20 20:36:21 data. ARMv6 compliant architectures will manage unaligned data more efficiently in Jan 20 20:36:21 hardware. Jan 20 20:36:28 wazd: acknowledged Jan 20 20:37:16 the odd part is this must have worked on the 770 for OS2008HE *somehow* Jan 20 20:37:31 compiler flags? Jan 20 20:37:32 johnx: the engine and server wasn't seperated that much there Jan 20 20:37:46 but i think it happened too Jan 20 20:37:49 wazd: The back is really good now, but the front is ugly :( Jan 20 20:37:50 Stskeeps, I've had this problem since ~a year ago Jan 20 20:37:55 true Jan 20 20:37:58 so it must have been similar Jan 20 20:38:30 wazd:Can you keep it the same way as it was before and just remove the sharp corners? Jan 20 20:38:55 Sts: Are you sure it is length? Jan 20 20:39:09 AHSHITIKNOWWHATITIS Jan 20 20:39:19 !! Jan 20 20:39:23 wooooooooooooooooooooooooo Jan 20 20:39:25 hm? Jan 20 20:39:31 doh! Jan 20 20:39:41 johnx: behaviour depends on /proc/cpu/alignment Jan 20 20:39:45 * RST38h affectionately calls Sapwood people stupid idiots Jan 20 20:39:50 Sts,johnx: Let us get back to the original code Jan 20 20:39:54 RST38h: everything basically ones one to the left Jan 20 20:40:04 i think Jan 20 20:40:15 (i can't remember my debug output) Jan 20 20:40:21 Sts,johnx: You will see that these worthy gentlemen allocate an array of BYTES on stack and cast it to a structure. Right Jan 20 20:40:23 ? Jan 20 20:40:44 ah. Jan 20 20:40:53 Sts,johnx: This structure is going to contain 16bit integers and thus has to be aligned AT LEAST to the even address boundary Jan 20 20:41:23 hihi Jan 20 20:41:26 ssvb, pretend I'm dumb. what am I looking to see there (though they do look radically different between those systems) Jan 20 20:41:28 If it is not aligned, the nature of fuckup will depend on the CPU model, memory management hardware, etc. Jan 20 20:41:32 the old aligment struct thinggie Jan 20 20:41:55 Ok, let us fix it gracefully and file a bug to Maemo devs Jan 20 20:42:18 RST38h, :D So, what kind of beer do i owe you? Jan 20 20:42:22 Define it like that: Jan 20 20:42:26 johnx: you can read here for example: http://lecs.cs.ucla.edu/wiki/index.php/XScale_alignment Jan 20 20:42:41 johnx: just googled this page Jan 20 20:42:51 RST38h, which is to say: Thanks Jan 20 20:42:55 ssvb, thanks. reading :) Jan 20 20:43:09 struct { PixbufOpenRequest req;char filename[PATH_MAX+1]; } req; Jan 20 20:43:26 johnx: I charge in blood =) Jan 20 20:43:36 johnx: no sweat though Jan 20 20:43:51 RST38h, your choices are Sapporo, Yebisu or Kirin. I think blood is a Russian brand? Jan 20 20:44:28 Anyways, if you declare req as shown above (break into separate lines) the only abnormality you would get is maybe an extra byte of padding between req and filename, but you shouldn't care Jan 20 20:44:32 johnx: the problem is that linux kernel has an idiotic default regarding unaligned memory accesses, this makes spotting these issues harder Jan 20 20:44:36 johnx: universal =) Jan 20 20:44:51 johnx: I don't drink so don't worry about it Jan 20 20:45:29 RST38h: the req allocated there will be aligned well on the stack, so we can safely pass it off as a char * to the pixbuf thing? Jan 20 20:45:37 RST38h, fair enough. If you end up at the next summit or similar I'll have some terrifying souveneir for you Jan 20 20:45:42 Sts: Yes. Jan 20 20:45:50 Sts: compiler will take care of it Jan 20 20:45:54 RST38h: now, that's the kind of crap i didn't get taught in school Jan 20 20:45:59 johnx: Fugu! Jan 20 20:46:08 no, no just joking Jan 20 20:46:15 RST38h, I'll prepare it myself. :> Jan 20 20:46:24 Sts: That is because you did not have SPARC hardware in school =) Jan 20 20:46:45 Sts: Because otherwise you would be severely punished by the system =) Jan 20 20:46:49 RST38h: hehe Jan 20 20:46:56 ssvb, it's entirely possible that the kernel was screaming about it in the logs and I didn't know that it was important Jan 20 20:47:14 RST38h: anyway, this means we'll be able to put a working sapwood on 770 and such :) many many thanks Jan 20 20:48:42 I'll apply the change and test:) Jan 20 20:49:12 johnx: i think we need to change things further down really Jan 20 20:49:18 as the structure will be changed Jan 20 20:49:22 (i think) Jan 20 20:49:34 or not Jan 20 20:49:47 * Stskeeps goes back to devilish HCI Jan 20 20:49:51 it will not change Jan 20 20:51:42 in any case, it warrants a bug report :P Jan 20 20:52:20 "Fixed in fremantle since we no longer run on armv5" :) Jan 20 20:52:22 Yes, it is definitely grounds for a bug report Jan 20 20:52:24 it's related to https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=3939 Jan 20 20:52:42 it *is* a bug Jan 20 20:53:15 hi guys, I would need your help again.... Jan 20 20:53:31 I have finally managed to install a web server with php... Jan 20 20:53:40 but I don't have mysql support... Jan 20 20:53:52 (I need the php5-mysql or any equivalent) Jan 20 20:54:10 can't I get the original one and paste it in a directory? Jan 20 20:55:52 no. Jan 20 20:56:05 mm? Jan 20 20:56:19 he can't paste an x86 binary there and expect it to run Jan 20 20:56:36 so... what am I gonna do? Jan 20 20:56:54 I need the connection between php- mysql... Jan 20 20:56:59 probably die... eventually... Jan 20 20:57:26 you can try compiling it for Maemo but I would suggest using sqlite instead Jan 20 20:57:31 (that would make happy many people....but ....:P It doesnt work on me) Jan 20 20:57:51 I have already made the database in mysql Jan 20 20:58:05 won't require lot of changes Jan 20 20:58:08 I don't have time to learn sql-lite Jan 20 20:58:35 The main point is tht sqlite is already available (checking right now) Jan 20 20:58:43 yes.... Jan 20 20:58:47 I know that.. Jan 20 20:58:54 but the base is huge.... Jan 20 20:59:10 how about to make the php-mysql by myself??? Jan 20 20:59:16 (too difficult?) Jan 20 20:59:27 is your db store locally on the tablet or remotely on some server? Jan 20 20:59:31 stored Jan 20 20:59:51 now it is on a server (desktop) Jan 20 21:00:07 but I want to make it work on the tablet Jan 20 21:00:14 if you want to move it to the tablet, expect performance problems Jan 20 21:00:22 more so with mysql than with sqlite Jan 20 21:00:57 it doesn't matter Jan 20 21:01:17 how about write the php-mysql Jan 20 21:01:19 aside from this, get php5-mysql and compile it using Maemo SDK Jan 20 21:01:20 by myself? Jan 20 21:01:29 xmmm Jan 20 21:01:31 hmmmmmmmmmm Jan 20 21:01:38 what? Jan 20 21:01:40 sounds very good :) Jan 20 21:01:44 but...what tools? Jan 20 21:01:49 Maemo SDK. Jan 20 21:02:02 (just a maemo sdk compiler and the origianl php5-mysql ?) Jan 20 21:02:12 yes. Jan 20 21:02:29 sqlite is not complete and is a slightly older version, there will be things you want to do which make you pull your hair out Jan 20 21:03:06 lcuk you give me hopes :) Jan 20 21:03:09 and sqlite uses a case sensitive syntax for its sql and its damned frustrating :) but thats only my opinion Jan 20 21:03:19 lcuk hm you will fight it Jan 20 21:03:22 RST38h the maemo SDK is still beta... :( Jan 20 21:03:33 woglinde, its just another thing ;) Jan 20 21:03:49 ive got my data into the database now and im looking at how quick it is Jan 20 21:04:02 lcuk ah Jan 20 21:04:04 the sdk is fine Jan 20 21:05:00 Qualcomm now owns Geode, apparently Jan 20 21:05:30 rst ui Jan 20 21:05:48 wazd and others: hey i have some new mockups from the oven XD Jan 20 21:05:53 RST38h, man which maemo SDK???? Jan 20 21:06:03 * lcuk doesnt like mockups Jan 20 21:06:07 http://maemo.org/development/sdks/maemo_4_0_chinook_beta_sdk/ ??? Jan 20 21:06:18 (I have installed diablo, is it ok???) Jan 20 21:06:29 http://maemo.org/development/sdks/maemo_4-1-2_diablo/ Jan 20 21:07:37 * RST38h shouldn't have suggested compiling... Jan 20 21:07:40 oh sorry maby I've forgotten salt and pepper XD Jan 20 21:07:52 Wrong, *wrong* idea it was... Jan 20 21:08:12 opengeekv2, lol its not that theres anything wrong with a mockup, i just prefer to touch :) lemme have a link Jan 20 21:08:17 y man??? Jan 20 21:08:30 ok Jan 20 21:08:49 opengeekv2, have you seen my apps? Jan 20 21:08:55 http://opengeek.wordpress.com/2009/01/20/mermaemo-5-mockup-2-fullscreen-realted/ Jan 20 21:09:24 no pleas pass me a link withs salt a pepper Jan 20 21:10:36 http://maemo.org/downloads/product/OS2008/liqbase/ (and don't forget to vote and comment if you like) and a much more expansive overview here http://liqbase.net/ install on your device and see Jan 20 21:10:58 oh you are the creator of liqbase? Jan 20 21:11:26 hehe Jan 20 21:12:11 so does it work on my 770 yet? :) Jan 20 21:12:28 (actually, my 770 is out atm) Jan 20 21:12:30 timelE61i, mer? recompiling sapwood now :) Jan 20 21:12:38 i'll try it when i get a new charger for n800 Jan 20 21:12:39 Liq Jan 20 21:12:41 opengeekv2, the mockup for the fullscreen menus, http://liqbase.net/liq.20090107_005847.lib.scr.png this is an early test i was messing with, each corner of the fish widget was active Jan 20 21:13:00 would it be hard to add pressure-sensivity recognition to bluemaemo? :> Jan 20 21:13:02 timelE61i, did you sent me your 770 yet Jan 20 21:13:03 johnx: I knew I'd miss my dev 770 when I realized I'd left it at home.. Jan 20 21:13:43 r2d2rogers: we found the sapwood problem! Jan 20 21:13:57 opengeekv2, you have seen liqbase then :) Jan 20 21:14:03 or well, RST38h did in his wisdom Jan 20 21:14:38 RST38h may I install maemo compiler in windows? Jan 20 21:14:48 i ahve to buy a new carger for my n800 nowadys it not works Jan 20 21:14:49 you can try, but it wont work Jan 20 21:14:58 but i've seen the image Jan 20 21:14:58 ohhh god... Jan 20 21:15:00 theres a vmware appliance somewhere Jan 20 21:15:13 yup...I saw it Jan 20 21:15:19 but I don't know how it works Jan 20 21:15:27 Jake: Go with sqlite. Jan 20 21:15:31 Jake42-2, you are stuck in catch 22, you will not stop saying "ohhhh god" for about another 8 or 9 months Jan 20 21:15:41 then you will "get" it :) Jan 20 21:15:51 * lcuk still shakes head at linux Jan 20 21:15:59 catch 22? Jan 20 21:16:03 yes man Jan 20 21:16:05 aaah, memories: 2008 Mar 05 22:24:29 also, gah, sapwood-server is being a PITA Jan 20 21:16:10 you want something but you have to do something else first Jan 20 21:16:11 I have linux on my pc as well Jan 20 21:16:22 now I use windows for photshop Jan 20 21:16:28 are you this bad at it? Jan 20 21:16:35 no Jan 20 21:16:53 lcuk: This is a clear and simple case for sqlite Jan 20 21:16:57 medium- experienced Jan 20 21:17:09 Stskeeps: I'll be up for testing in about 2 hoours, unless the spare card I have here builds a mer image faster than that Jan 20 21:17:12 i dunno what its needed for though, yesterday he wanted a whole server Jan 20 21:17:28 lcuk Jan 20 21:17:32 I made the whole think Jan 20 21:17:34 r2d2rogers: hehe, didn't say we had a compiled fixed version yet, just that we know how to solve it :) Jan 20 21:17:39 opengeekv2, theres videos on liqbase.net Jan 20 21:17:40 now I miss only the part of Jan 20 21:17:45 php-mysql... Jan 20 21:17:54 urgs Jan 20 21:17:55 just a tiny little bit :) Jan 20 21:18:09 *thing Jan 20 21:18:13 i've found the vmware image Jan 20 21:18:13 lcuk: and he does not yet know that he also needs mysql... Jan 20 21:18:16 either php nor mysql Jan 20 21:18:34 i'llbe able to run liqbase on it no? Jan 20 21:18:40 no Jan 20 21:18:45 get a nokia charger :) Jan 20 21:18:57 * lcuk remembers the time when he couldnt take screenshots with liqbase Jan 20 21:19:07 and it was all mine, just nurtured quietly :) Jan 20 21:19:07 yes but in spain we are a 22:30 Jan 20 21:19:11 RST38h is it so difficult to compile something???? Jan 20 21:19:39 (in maemo SDK, I have compiled many other programs Jan 20 21:19:49 on gcc, javac...) Jan 20 21:20:30 Jake42-2, can i ask, what are you doing this for? Jan 20 21:21:00 for an electronic health record Jan 20 21:21:06 as I said Jan 20 21:21:15 * lcuk never heard Jan 20 21:21:20 openEMR? Jan 20 21:21:28 lets say Jan 20 21:21:35 that you have EVERY medical DATA Jan 20 21:21:38 on your phone Jan 20 21:21:48 Jake: If you have never done it before and do not know what SDK is, yes Jan 20 21:21:52 (and/or also available on a web server) Jan 20 21:22:18 then run it from your desktop and connect via tablet Jan 20 21:22:23 I know that the sdk is a compiler for java, or something like that.... isn't there any tutorial???) Jan 20 21:22:24 Not that it can't be learnt, but it will cost time Jan 20 21:22:55 hmmm Jan 20 21:22:58 Jake42-2, do you know what a cross compiler is? have you ever used one? Jan 20 21:23:05 * RST38h braces himself and whistles quietly Jan 20 21:23:06 >>>>>>>>> (in maemo SDK, I have compiled many other programs <<<<<<<<<< Jan 20 21:23:10 I know Jan 20 21:23:16 never used before Jan 20 21:23:31 maemo SDK is an environment for cross compiling Jan 20 21:23:47 * lcuk passes johnx a shotglass Jan 20 21:23:59 it's ok Jan 20 21:24:26 get the latest maemo SDK, look at the instructions, get the php-mysql source from packages.debian.org, and follow the instructions for making yourself a debian package Jan 20 21:24:41 Jake42-2, go read up about the sdk, and if you get confused find the maemo vmware image it has a preconfigured environment that you can use to learn from Jan 20 21:25:05 just a sec Jan 20 21:25:07 it has hello world and stuff in amongst the ready made ubuntu+ide and everything ready installed and a readme Jan 20 21:25:09 the vmware image Jan 20 21:25:16 needs also an installed OS Jan 20 21:25:22 or may I use it directly? Jan 20 21:25:46 luck i've seen the videos i'm so impressed Jan 20 21:26:20 Jake42-2, you install vmware player and use it directly Jan 20 21:26:52 all this things you made in liqbase could be implemented on the mer UI without many problems? (i don't know much about coding) Jan 20 21:27:50 opengeekv2, the principles i started in liqbase are usable on a wide range of applications. Jan 20 21:28:14 they have been boiled down int a library (which if i had more time would be released by now) Jan 20 21:28:47 the site http://maemovmware.garage.maemo.org/ refers that there are 4 parts Jan 20 21:28:54 but only two of them are for download :S Jan 20 21:29:13 at the point that the api is semi stable i will be releasing the lib with some core ui examples and apps and hopefully they can be moulded into a nice set of apps for our devices :) Jan 20 21:29:30 oh nice Jan 20 21:30:12 Jake42-2, you download 1 thing from there: maemo-sdk-0.8.vmx Jan 20 21:30:27 my blog not ever talks about maemo but can I put it on the planet? Jan 20 21:30:36 opengeekv2, as for whether it can be made to fit in with mer, yes http://www.internettablettalk.com/forums/showthread.php?p=253955 Jan 20 21:31:04 opengeekv2, not really yet, get more direction towards maemo Jan 20 21:31:09 Jake42-2, ah, i see what you mean. use the bittorrent link maybe Jan 20 21:31:18 johnx it is parts... Jan 20 21:31:33 people will give you lots of thumbs down if they dont see very specific things Jan 20 21:31:51 * lcuk will make sure his next blog post includes bacon Jan 20 21:34:43 ¿bacon? Jan 20 21:35:43 mm, bacon Jan 20 21:36:03 http://www.marions-kochbuch.de/index-bilder/bacon-in-streifen.jpg Jan 20 21:37:14 benson, :P Jan 20 21:42:03 johnx: btw, scratchbox builder has suddenly stopped allowing TCP connections or resolving hostnames, i have no idea why Jan 20 21:42:14 ah, exciting Jan 20 21:43:00 also, I'm not having luck figuring out how to apply RST38h's fix, but I will test first-boot-wizard in a sec Jan 20 21:43:21 so it will go on the native builder always (which takes ages) Jan 20 21:43:34 * lcuk raises a beer Jan 20 21:43:41 ok, I just have one build-x86 to do in a sec anyways Jan 20 21:43:48 k Jan 20 21:43:50 lcuk, I'll stick to coffee for now :) Jan 20 21:44:30 thats ok johnx, but you must drink at the summit Jan 20 21:44:40 lcuk, oh yes. so very much yes Jan 20 21:45:12 johnx say Jan 20 21:45:17 that I download php5-mysql Jan 20 21:45:24 it has in it 5 files Jan 20 21:45:35 I should compile all of them Jan 20 21:45:36 ? Jan 20 21:45:48 (or may I compile the original php5-mysql.deb ?) Jan 20 21:45:50 no, the extra files are just to fill out the archive Jan 20 21:45:56 theres a minimum size on zips Jan 20 21:46:16 lcuk: you going to fosdem? Jan 20 21:46:55 Or, do you know someoe semilocal going there? Jan 20 21:47:01 control.tar.gz Jan 20 21:47:07 data.tar.gz Jan 20 21:47:10 these ones? Jan 20 21:47:13 I can probably get it couriered via fosdem Jan 20 21:47:19 Jake42-2, you grabbed a binary debian package Jan 20 21:47:21 you need source Jan 20 21:47:30 back later. makin' coffee and oatmeal Jan 20 21:47:58 oatmeal! Jan 20 21:48:04 i can make that in the morning :) Jan 20 21:50:35 Stskeeps: got a local branch of HAM. Merged in the #2710 patch (no disclaimers) and changed the default to not show them. Will do some testing and then start pushing it up to a branch hosted on launchpad in ~aflegg Jan 20 21:50:45 Jaffa: alright :) Jan 20 21:50:58 poke me to give you access to builder tomorrow Jan 20 21:51:08 (and repo) Jan 20 21:53:31 so guys. I found the source code...now among these files...which of them do I need? Jan 20 21:54:59 Stskeeps: to avoid diverging too far from Nokia's source, since ideally (presumably) the aim would be to get Mer patches merged into the upstream HAM; any tricks for identifying when a package is being installed in Mer vs. Maemo (for the inittab stuff in postinst)? Jan 20 21:55:40 Last week Intel reported a 23 percent drop in fourth-quarter revenue. Jan 20 21:56:28 * b-man is frustrated when he realises 75% of gentoo applications refuse to install/compile for ARMv6 Jan 20 21:57:34 hah! AMD (NYSE) at $2.00! Jan 20 21:59:11 b-man, like i said, mid 40s Jan 20 21:59:40 hehe Jan 20 22:00:36 timelE61i, no sorry not ready for it Jan 20 22:00:43 and no i dont know anyone Jan 20 22:01:06 b-man: told you it wouldn't be easy Jan 20 22:01:25 yeah :p Jan 20 22:01:44 Jaffa: yes, ideally any changes should go into Maemo as well to contribute closer alignment (and less patching work when new HAM versions come out ;) Jan 20 22:03:09 Jake42-2, you have a .orig.tar.gz, .diff.gz and .dsc? put them in the same directory and run: dpkg-source -x foo.dsc Jan 20 22:03:40 then cd into the directory it creates and run dpkg-buildpackage -rfakeroot. if there are errors you may need to fix them Jan 20 22:06:11 * Jaffa twiddles his thumbs whilst waiting for it to build. Will go and wash some baby bottles :-) Jan 20 22:06:18 * b-man starts to "sift out" installible applications by selecting a random grup of 15 applications from the base system section and marks down witch packages work and witch don't work with the system, so far, only 7 out of 15 of those packages work :p Jan 20 22:19:31 any of you guys know of a swedish company that specialises in touchscreen UIs called Neonode? Jan 20 22:21:01 http://www.ces-show.com/0055/motorola/cellphones/n2-mobile-phone/ Jan 20 22:23:46 pupnik: The one that was used to ake phones? Jan 20 22:24:24 the one that had a semi-public spitfight with Microsoft over the first WinMobile? Jan 20 22:25:01 don't recall that. they just reorganized under bankruptcy Jan 20 22:25:23 going to try to market their touch ui Jan 20 22:28:05 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MfDMHmlZRLc ah there it is Jan 20 22:29:54 Stskeeps/johnx/mer-folk: is mer assumed to still be a single-user system, it's just the user might not have the uid `user'? Jan 20 22:30:11 yeah Jan 20 22:30:34 Is there a way of identifying that user's UID? (I suppose it's the only one in the group `users') Jan 20 22:30:41 Jaffa, I would say that the eventual goal should be multiple concurrent users, but right now some things just don't behave well being run more than once Jan 20 22:30:45 ex: maemo-launcher Jan 20 22:30:51 Ahoy Jan 20 22:30:53 for what purpose btw? Jan 20 22:30:56 wello jkr Jan 20 22:31:23 Stskeeps: just thinking of the security implications of the sudo entries HAM writes to enable apt-worker to be run. Jan 20 22:31:40 However, changing it so that anyone in `users' can do it will work on Mer & Maemo without further change to either system. Jan 20 22:31:54 Jaffa, how about making it ok for group admin to run? Jan 20 22:32:04 BTW, known issue that run-standalone.sh doesn't work (/etc/osso/af-init-defines.sh doesn't exist) Jan 20 22:32:24 though if it needs to work on both with the same config file, maybe group 'users' would be ok Jan 20 22:32:45 users is fine i guess Jan 20 22:33:06 Jaffa, is this the mer sdk? or a mer system? Jan 20 22:33:34 Is it possible that WPA2 needs a lot of more power on a N810? Jan 20 22:33:36 johnx: /etc/osso/af-init-defines.sh doesn't exist, so :P Jan 20 22:33:49 ah, in both, right :) Jan 20 22:33:51 (we dont have a script setting up everything) Jan 20 22:33:55 Or maybe using Draft n or a special channel? Jan 20 22:34:02 jkr: of course Jan 20 22:34:17 any kind of crypto needs more power Jan 20 22:34:24 jkr: http://wiki.maemo.org/Wifi_Power_Saving_Mode_(PSM) is most likely cause though Jan 20 22:34:29 jkr, do you mean cpu power or power draw while in use or power draw while idle? Jan 20 22:34:44 Well, I'm talking about battery life Jan 20 22:35:03 I recently got a new AP and since then the battery time (idle) is down to a few hours instead of days Jan 20 22:35:10 most likely PSM then Jan 20 22:35:18 jkr, then it's likely what Stskeeps said :) Jan 20 22:36:48 jkr: i use wpa2 and mine is days instead of hours, so Jan 20 22:37:51 ^ Jan 20 22:38:17 http://www.whitehouse.gov/copyright/ <- that's neat Jan 20 22:38:26 CC license on whitehouse.gov :> Jan 20 22:38:46 Hehe, the first hit for a google search for "fritz box psm": https://bugzilla.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=3738 Jan 20 22:38:56 That's sounds pretty much like my problem Jan 20 22:39:17 Basically, you've got a shit router. :P Jan 20 22:39:54 Actually it's pretty cool Jan 20 22:40:07 Sounds like a bug in the firmware Jan 20 22:40:22 That doesn't make it less broken, unfortunately. Jan 20 22:40:57 jkr: if you have something called WMI/WMM in the config, enable it Jan 20 22:41:43 Which config? On the AP? Jan 20 22:42:19 yes Jan 20 22:43:38 What does WMI/WMM mean? Translating it could help finding it on the german UI :) Jan 20 22:44:19 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wireless_Multimedia_Extensions Jan 20 22:44:49 Lovely bit of code in hildon-application-manager/src/apt-worker-client.cc: http://paste2.org/p/133000 Jan 20 22:45:09 classy Jan 20 22:45:17 Jaffa: not first time we see scratchbox-specific things Jan 20 22:45:18 :P Jan 20 22:45:57 * RST38h is kinda unsure what White House means by "terminating repeat infringers" Jan 20 22:46:01 Nope, no such option Jan 20 22:47:03 perhaps there's a firmware upgrade Jan 20 22:47:16 basically, that option is needed for any mobile device to do sane power saving Jan 20 22:47:29 RST38h, I think you know what it means :) Jan 20 22:49:06 Stskeeps: The firmware is up-to-date. I'd rather think that there option is active by default and there's just no way to disable it using the UI :) Jan 20 22:49:13 johnx: yes, I can guess... Jan 20 22:49:21 Has anyone else had problems with VideoCenter's DBs and remembering downloaded podcasts? Jan 20 22:49:38 According to the forum posts and the bug reports, it looks like the problem is more a N810 problem rather than a router problem Jan 20 22:50:23 jkr, well, the n810 is one of the devices that makes the most extensive use of wifi PSM, but generally if the router won't play nice the n810 can't use PSM Jan 20 22:50:52 You said that iwconfig y/day says power management is disabled on your laptop so i'd be more inclined to blame the router. Jan 20 22:51:08 I think I'll just attach my old WRT to the router :) Jan 20 22:51:25 you gave up a WRT for something *else*? Jan 20 22:51:48 qwerty12_N800: Well, whatever "Power management" means - IIRC it's something that the WLAN driver on the notebook does Jan 20 22:52:18 johnx: The WRT is just a router :) The Fritz Box is *everything* - and it was free Jan 20 22:52:30 my head hurts Jan 20 22:52:39 lcuk drink another beer Jan 20 22:52:51 Draft-N WLAN, DSL up to 32 MBits, DECT station, media server, ... Jan 20 22:52:53 nahhh one is already enough Jan 20 22:53:04 im just v tired :) Jan 20 22:53:04 I assume it means power saving - at least my N800 says it is on when connected to a speedtouch. Jan 20 22:55:38 qwerty12_N800: The iwconfig suggests "powermanagement" is something you can configure at client side using iwconfig Jan 20 22:55:45 nice! as well as loading from a dynamic lib ive worked out how to load a named dll and get at methods :) Jan 20 22:55:48 *iwconfig manual Jan 20 22:56:55 jkr: the power saving only works if the ap supports it :) Jan 20 22:57:01 I tried "iwconfig wlan0 power on", now it says that power management is on :) Jan 20 22:57:10 So I guess it doesn't tell me anything about the router Jan 20 22:57:12 sure you didnt disable it under connections then? Jan 20 22:57:37 jkr, probably, I haven't read up on it (too lazy :)) but then again, wifi psm can be disabled from the tablet anyway, so assuming (I think anyway) that they mean the same thing... :) Jan 20 22:58:09 im so pleased i got font scaling working :) Jan 20 22:58:16 * qwerty12_N800 gets off his arse and googles man iwconfig Jan 20 22:58:23 lcuk hehe Jan 20 22:58:34 The connection settings on the N810 say "Power saving: On (maximum)" Jan 20 22:58:50 jkr, I assume you just ran iwconfig on your laptop? Jan 20 22:58:55 Yup Jan 20 22:59:07 Couldn't find a package for OS2008 yet Jan 20 22:59:16 google: wirelesstools maemo Jan 20 22:59:29 Good idea Jan 20 23:00:47 qwerty12_N800, I think that it will show 'on' in iwconfig as long as the driver is trying to use it Jan 20 23:01:04 whether or not the driver can use it depends on whether it can negotiate successfully with the AP Jan 20 23:01:10 (IIUC) Jan 20 23:01:44 Best way to install is to use the packages from nokia. wget/maemo-mini-curl http://repository.maemo.org/pool/diablo/free/w/wireless-tools/libiw29_29~pre21-2.osso1_armel.deb and http://repository.maemo.org/pool/diablo/free/w/wireless-tools/wireless-tools_29~pre21-2.osso1_armel.deb and, as root, use dpkg -i on the debs Jan 20 23:01:53 I see johnx, thanks Jan 20 23:02:01 qwerty12_N800, I might be wrong :) Jan 20 23:02:48 Heh, I'm not massivly clued up 'bout it either so, I'll take your word :) Jan 20 23:02:53 Can't I just install it using the package manager? Jan 20 23:03:23 Don't think they're in user/ category which means horrible modes Jan 20 23:04:15 The last time I got myself root access I had to reflash the system :) Jan 20 23:04:29 Ouch :/ Jan 20 23:04:49 jkr, you won't this time. There's a great package called rootsh which is easy and safe Jan 20 23:05:06 * qwerty12_N800 grins Jan 20 23:05:06 lot's safer than red-pill mode needed to install them via app manager Jan 20 23:05:24 I installed sshd to get a root password, then later disabled the sshd in the services list because I thought I didn't need it running all the time Jan 20 23:05:41 The N810 never came up again :) Jan 20 23:05:50 that service list applet sucks imo Jan 20 23:06:54 are you sure you didn't disable anything else in services applet? Jan 20 23:07:13 Yup, pretty sure Jan 20 23:07:44 I googled for the problem afterwards and some other people had the same problem with sshd Jan 20 23:08:07 It uses update-rc.d to "enable" a service. Which is standard and normal byt considering that most of the stock scripts with maemo don't have init info, you get services started at the wrong time Jan 20 23:08:13 *but Jan 20 23:08:29 The N810 bootet until the progress bar was full, then a few seconds/minutes nothing happened and finally the screen became black and it started again Jan 20 23:08:38 Until the battery was empty or one took it out Jan 20 23:08:44 O_o Jan 20 23:08:45 wow Jan 20 23:08:51 much suckittude Jan 20 23:09:18 Yup Jan 20 23:09:30 jkr, rootsh gives you root without any extra services. And if it messes up, I welcome you to swear at me :) Jan 20 23:09:37 That happened a few days after I got the N810, I really thought it was already broken Jan 20 23:09:54 Alright :) Jan 20 23:10:24 jkr: did you solve the problem? Jan 20 23:10:28 it can be pretty fragile with regards to stuff that runs at boot Jan 20 23:11:44 (ofcourse, people rarely ask for permission to swear...) Jan 20 23:12:27 Stskeeps, random thought: would it be ok to add the commands to enable usb-host to the rescue-mode "console" script so that people can use usb keyboards? Jan 20 23:13:47 i thought it was on implicit when no g_thing loaded Jan 20 23:13:59 Alright, everything installed Jan 20 23:14:08 iwconfig says pwoer mgmt: on Jan 20 23:14:37 Stskeeps, nope, needs to have g_file_storage loaded and host echo'ed to /sys/devices/platform/musb_hdrc/mode Jan 20 23:15:00 oh that thing.. Jan 20 23:15:19 So how does that help now? :) Jan 20 23:15:43 jkr, errr...pretty sure we already decided it wouldn't tell you much...but now you can look at the pretty stats :) Jan 20 23:16:04 Whee :) Jan 20 23:16:20 johnx, yes sure re consol Jan 20 23:16:22 e Jan 20 23:16:35 not permanent hack though Jan 20 23:17:13 Stskeeps, right, not on all the time, just if console is selected from rescue...hmm and maybe if hardware is RX-x4 Jan 20 23:17:38 it should really pop up a menu when cable plugged in and ask how to act Jan 20 23:17:41 jkr, plug in your WRT. turn off the wifi on your fritz box. if your power usage doesn't go back to the way it was then it's ... probably some software being dumb Jan 20 23:17:52 Stskeeps, but it can't detect that unless we use a mini-a cable Jan 20 23:18:13 and we can't use a mini-a cable unless we hack in a differently shaped physical port Jan 20 23:18:25 johnx, thought we saw that in HAL Jan 20 23:18:38 with host mode not set? Jan 20 23:18:39 hmm Jan 20 23:18:41 will check Jan 20 23:18:55 lol Jan 20 23:18:55 listen on dbus Jan 20 23:19:09 Some people suggest the problem does only occur with static IPs Jan 20 23:19:12 im off to sleep Jan 20 23:19:12 I didn't think the *kernel* would be able to tell, but I will check Jan 20 23:19:16 Gotta check taht Jan 20 23:19:28 7949! Jan 20 23:19:52 and S&P is gonna go under 800 rsn Jan 20 23:20:10 * qwerty12_N800 takes RST38h's bank card & enters 7949 as pin Jan 20 23:20:12 RST38h, JP retail spending down for the 12th year straight :) Jan 20 23:20:34 business as usual Jan 20 23:20:47 johnx: they are lowering prices aren't they? Jan 20 23:21:24 RST38h, at stores? maybe? but import prices are going down because the JPY is strong. Jan 20 23:22:16 johnx: The "beauty" of .RU is that the retail prices are going UP while salaries go way down (by as much as 50%) Jan 20 23:22:47 hmmm. neat plan. tell me how that works for you Jan 20 23:22:58 Ah, my router actually has WMM and it's active Jan 20 23:23:00 johnx: usd. Jan 20 23:23:06 johnx: that is how it works for me Jan 20 23:23:08 It shows it in the list of connected clients Jan 20 23:23:25 jkr, huh. well that's interesting Jan 20 23:23:36 RST38h, I'm thinking of getting some real estate soon :) Jan 20 23:23:43 johnx: it does not work the same for the locals though, so I expect all kinds of hilarity in 2-3 months Jan 20 23:23:47 johnx: Same Jan 20 23:23:48 not "soon" soon, but soonish Jan 20 23:24:02 johnx: getting affordable again Jan 20 23:24:12 RST38h, getting affordable in some nice places Jan 20 23:24:31 johnx: well, just ashort while ago it was not affordable anywhere Jan 20 23:24:38 Now I'm here :) Jan 20 23:25:43 Anyways, bed time Jan 20 23:25:51 moo wazd, tomorrow Jan 20 23:25:52 yeah, same here O_o; Jan 20 23:25:55 RST38h: I've sent you new spec) Jan 20 23:26:05 wazd: thans! checking Jan 20 23:28:25 yep, this is it. will put it in tomorrow. Jan 20 23:28:58 RST38h: ok :) So my work is complete I suppose :) Jan 20 23:29:12 RST38h: or any other icons to make?) Jan 20 23:41:53 Woohoo: http://87.194.112.115/~andrew/mer-ham-01.png Jan 20 23:42:17 oh, sweet!! :D Jan 20 23:43:11 * b-man awards jaffa with a metal Jan 20 23:43:38 etal? Jan 20 23:59:54 Stskeeps: why ppl is againt a Mer subcategory in iTT? Jan 21 00:01:43 no clue, didn't look for getting it Jan 21 00:02:20 debian exists for a reason, kde is useless.. Jan 21 00:03:12 Stskeeps, you should IMO as it's the only future of newer Maemo for older NITs Jan 21 00:03:41 we'll just coup 'Alternatives' ;) Jan 21 00:03:50 btw i didn't see anything really compelling from that swedish company, did you RST38h ? Jan 21 00:04:00 jaffa: good job! Jan 21 00:04:02 it's probably better asking for a category when the only mer thread turns into 40+ pages because I don't see point of a category yet - support is there judging by thanks but not much replies Jan 21 00:05:34 qwerty12_N800: wait for the moment Nokia release a newer tablet and all ppl will be asking how can they run Mer on ther "obsolete" tablets... Jan 21 00:05:58 solca: yeah, but atm we are developing Jan 21 00:06:03 solca, nah, you're thinking small :) We want it on shiny new tablets too Jan 21 00:06:14 * johnx really sleeps now Jan 21 00:06:31 solca, hehe, I would guess that the thread would become 40+ pages? :D Jan 21 00:06:31 johnx: insomnia sucks Jan 21 00:06:49 I'm just not on 24 hour days lately :/ Jan 21 00:07:04 the only problem is they keep expecting me to show up at work. bleh :P Jan 21 00:07:20 Stskeeps: well when someone creates the Mer category it would be nice to move all Mer threads to keep history Jan 21 00:08:34 solca: so far couping alternatives sound like an idea. not until it becomes talk.maemo.org we would feel truely at home there Jan 21 00:09:02 i mean, mer isn't IT-specific Jan 21 00:11:25 when sufficient buzz is generated we will findd out Jan 21 00:12:51 hi all Jan 21 00:14:10 morning Jan 21 00:14:16 * b-man watches the Obama inauguration Jan 21 00:16:05 b-man: I think there should be afterparty already :) Jan 21 00:16:40 hehe, yeah, i know :) Jan 21 00:18:27 Southpark has a great chapter bout USA elections :) Jan 21 00:18:41 one of the greatest ever I think :) Jan 21 00:19:16 lol Jan 21 00:20:48 * b-man hopes to god openssh is installible in gentoo Jan 21 00:21:06 yesss! Jan 21 00:22:39 http://susty.com/EasyBloomUSBPlantSensor-treehugger Jan 21 00:22:54 now wouldnt more enviromental sensors make more sense than adding wimax? Jan 21 00:23:20 accelerometers and humidity meters and such Jan 21 00:23:37 johnx Jan 21 00:23:45 are you here? Jan 21 00:23:50 Stskeeps? Jan 21 00:24:26 Stskeeps: bzr branch at https://code.launchpad.net/~aflegg/m-r/hildon-application-manager - untested on a device. If running as root, make sure root is in the 'users' group, or it won't work with the sudoers lines. Jan 21 00:24:48 fireun: it's too hard to measure humidity and temperature in PMP/PDA/whatever Jan 21 00:25:09 fireun: cause it's overloaded with hardware and it all produces heat Jan 21 00:26:54 bah, too hard Jan 21 00:27:55 Stskeeps: would Mer be compatible with Ubuntu_arm software?) Cause I've read today some crazy number of already ported apps :) Jan 21 00:29:51 wazd: it *is* Ubuntu ARM Jan 21 00:29:54 does anyone knows who are the default repos Jan 21 00:29:58 of maemo? Jan 21 00:30:28 Jaffa: oh, awesome :) Then it's doomed to be superstar OS :) Jan 21 00:31:22 Jaffa: I think many would like to have both desktop and mobile experience in their pockets Jan 21 00:33:11 Stskeeps: I'm off to bed. Any testing of HAM in a Mer device (or !chroot) would be appreciated. I'm not /entirely/ sure that installing actually works, but this could be a side-effect of the chroot or running as root or ... Jan 21 00:34:15 Actually, I was also having a maemo-launcher issue. Does that work in Mer? Jan 21 00:36:49 anybody have debian running at the moment? Jan 21 00:37:16 like Desktop? Jan 21 00:45:14 what do you need skibur Jan 21 00:45:34 * Jaffa commits r9 of his branch which avoids maemo-launcher altogether Jan 21 00:46:25 well, I just wanted to know many GBs debian needed for a fresh install. Jan 21 00:47:16 wow Jaffa, that's the official version? Jan 21 00:49:43 http://wiki.maemo.org/Maemo_Reconstructed well written. Jan 21 00:51:05 * benson chugs a strong iced coffee... time for Mer-hacking! Jan 21 00:51:34 Any Mer folks on? Jan 21 00:52:24 benson: johnx & Stskeeps were awake half an hour ago Jan 21 00:53:14 pupnik_: It's the App Manager from Diablo(ish), plus the patches I did for #3103 and #2710 (grid view of categories & no legalese disclaimers) Jan 21 00:55:27 i like the ideas behind mer! Jan 21 00:56:51 FireFox: you know if on-device building is officially supported? Jan 21 00:57:32 (In Mer, that is) Jan 21 00:57:50 do you mean gcc?, or dpkg-dev, or what? Jan 21 00:58:15 Well, I've built some packages with dpkg-buildpackage on-device. Jan 21 00:58:39 shure, it shuld be supported :) Jan 21 00:58:58 But I wonder if I can submit a tree that works that way to the autobuilder for the Mer repo, or if that still needs to go through scratchbox. Jan 21 01:01:16 i'm quite not shure (i don't mess around with the repo too much, i'm just in charge of merinstaller ;) ) Jan 21 01:01:56 Ah. Doh! I've just worked out why I can't install anything in my chroot: a call to libconic to ensure a n/w connection is up Jan 21 01:23:52 Yay! Hildon Application Manager is installing packages and generally working pretty fantastically in my chroot Jan 21 01:28:39 jaffa: woo Jan 21 01:28:56 http://www.flegg.org/~andrew/mer-ham-02.png - shows a new package what was installed :-) Jan 21 01:29:46 cool :) Jan 21 01:47:29 * FireFox discovers a hack to unmask packages in gentoo on his N800 so he can finally start installing non base-system software :) Jan 21 02:35:46 FireFox: uh, a hack? why not just.. you know, use the standard procedure? Jan 21 02:35:55 and are you actually running Gentoo on your N800? Jan 21 02:39:40 I think he's chrooting, not actually booting Gentoo yet. Jan 21 02:41:05 luke-jr: because packages.mask won't let me install the software i want because of a fuew minor bugs Jan 21 02:41:31 (it won't let me install testing software) Jan 21 02:42:32 * FireFox trys to install yum to make things easier Jan 21 02:45:07 crazy question, has anyone gotten usb-ethernet going here? Jan 21 02:45:56 with two ethernet ports, the 770 could be a router Jan 21 02:46:29 and a fairly deluxe one at that, with some nice simple user gui Jan 21 02:47:05 i guess you'd probably just expose the web interface on the screen Jan 21 02:47:41 then i could run my irssi sessions on the 770 with screen Jan 21 02:48:56 By usb-ethernet, you mean a dongle and host-mode, or networking over USB client? Jan 21 02:49:00 b-man: packages.mask? Jan 21 02:49:07 b-man: RTFM Jan 21 02:49:16 /etc/portage/package.{keywords,unmask}/ Jan 21 02:49:57 thanks, i'll try that Jan 21 02:54:54 pupnik: if you meant host-mode + dongle, I've done that on an N800. Jan 21 02:55:16 770, of course, means power injection too. Jan 21 02:55:28 dongle Jan 21 02:55:54 cool. did you have to build your own kernel benson ? Jan 21 02:55:54 But I was kinda thinking of a similar role for my N800, after I get an RX-51. Jan 21 02:55:58 Nope. Jan 21 02:56:07 * benson hunts the link. Jan 21 02:56:14 so you had ethernet running into the tablet? Jan 21 02:57:08 Yep. http://www.internettablettalk.com/wiki/index.php?title=HOWTO:_Wired_Networking_using_USB_host_mode_and_OS_2008 Jan 21 02:57:35 Kernel modules and hotplug scripts all compiled. Jan 21 02:58:50 And with the USB100M and N800, no external power's needed; the N800 can supply enough, so it's just USB cable -> dongle -> CAT5 Jan 21 02:59:00 neat Jan 21 02:59:45 so 2x ethernet or do you go over wlan, or ethernet-over-usb? **** ENDING LOGGING AT Wed Jan 21 02:59:57 2009