**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Thu Feb 19 02:59:57 2009 Feb 19 05:14:19 hey anyone else having an issue trying to update canola and carman Feb 19 05:22:47 GOD THE GPL AND LGPL ARE JUST FULL OF SHIT Feb 19 05:23:07 what a farce!.. they are almost like communism Feb 19 05:24:51 Macer: THEN DON'T USE ANYTHING LICENSED UNDER THEM!!!!! :P Feb 19 05:25:38 Macer: communism requires force. No one is requiring you to use GPL etc Feb 19 05:28:47 If I'm using Mer, and I want to have swap for my N810 external should it be listed as /dev/mmcblk1pX or /dev/mmcblk0pX in fstab? I tried /dev/mmcblk1p2 (for external part 2, but it didn't seem to work) Feb 19 05:29:41 yah, i never understood the "gpl is restrictive" argument Feb 19 05:44:05 :) i was just joking. they had a big argument in here about the gpl and lgpl a couple days ago.. it cracked me up Feb 19 05:50:12 anyone having issues updating conola2 and carman Feb 19 06:13:11 anyone use canola 2 here Feb 19 06:25:17 only for frying fish Feb 19 06:32:02 hello again Feb 19 06:32:31 when installing Mer 0.8 from the tarball, on the internal MMC of an N810, how do you add it to the bootmenu list manually? Feb 19 06:32:40 I think I've done this before, but not in a while... Feb 19 06:35:20 actually, more to the point, is there any documentation on the new bootmenu anywhere? I didn't see much Feb 19 06:41:05 I would try again earlier in the day Feb 19 06:41:12 room goes idle around this time Feb 19 06:41:52 ah - fair enough Feb 19 06:42:01 darn - I'd like to try Mer Feb 19 06:42:19 I suppose I could just unpack the auto-install deb and muck around with the shell scripts until I figure it out Feb 19 06:42:27 * jaem will try that Feb 19 06:44:34 jaem: which bootmenu did you use? Feb 19 06:44:43 whichever comes with console-tools Feb 19 06:45:10 the info seems to be scattered across the forums/irc/general-interwebs, and it's rather confusing as to what is relevant to any given version Feb 19 06:45:13 jaem: hmm. I haven't used that one in a while. isn't there a command like pb-easy Feb 19 06:45:15 or something Feb 19 06:45:24 yes, I used the pb command Feb 19 06:45:24 maybe type pb Feb 19 06:45:37 but Mer comes as an auto-installer, or a tarball Feb 19 06:45:57 the two are separate commands. One of them will install it automatically. Feb 19 06:46:07 they only install the bootmenu Feb 19 06:46:07 Mer uses an auto-installer to install a tarball Feb 19 06:46:14 yes Feb 19 06:46:32 if you use the auto-installer, I think it requires you to install a version of bootmenu Feb 19 06:46:34 but I wanted to manually install it with my own partitioning setup == manual install Feb 19 06:46:53 you can do that. I think it's the only way that it actually works. Feb 19 06:47:00 I tried it the other way and it crashes. Feb 19 06:47:15 if you have your partitions already made, just fire up the installer Feb 19 06:47:35 does it give you the option? I suppose I should have tried first... my apologies Feb 19 06:47:46 I thought "auto" meant "auto" Feb 19 06:47:49 Yes. Feb 19 06:48:00 you can choose simple or advanced Feb 19 06:48:04 select advanced Feb 19 06:48:04 ah Feb 19 06:48:16 and it will then ask if you want to partition or if you want to keep your own partitions Feb 19 06:48:31 similar to Deblet? I can do that, then Feb 19 06:48:32 thanks Feb 19 06:48:39 it then asks if you want to format. if you format, it crashes the installer for me. Feb 19 06:48:51 ok Feb 19 06:48:52 so, format then run the installer Feb 19 06:48:55 sure Feb 19 06:49:21 also, I had to select a fat partition or the installer crashed, but it didn't really seem to care if it was really a fat partition or not. Feb 19 06:49:21 does console-tools install the same bootmenu that the Mer installer does? Feb 19 06:49:34 wait... fat for / ? Feb 19 06:49:43 it works a different way whn it set it up, but has the same purpose Feb 19 06:50:02 I don't know. I think it's in case you want to have a fat partition. I don't use one either. It works fine Feb 19 06:50:35 are there any docs on either bootmenu? I'd like to know how to set up custom items, or fix any borkage, but I haven't found much clear info Feb 19 06:51:04 just search iTT. Feb 19 06:51:22 I have been... I was just hoping it was consolidated somewhere >_< Feb 19 06:51:36 Nope. Not that I know of. SOrry Feb 19 06:52:57 Their both a little buggy too. Just do your best Feb 19 07:11:15 * hahlo wonders why all the arms couldn't be mutually same like the x86s are Feb 19 07:11:20 jeremiah: it's just me or http://blog.jeremiahfoster.com/?p=35 doesn't appear aggregated at http://maemo.org/news ? Feb 19 07:12:38 hahlo, what makes you think they aren't? Feb 19 07:13:23 omap Feb 19 07:14:32 like to run arm lenny in phone Feb 19 07:14:50 and why can't you? Feb 19 07:15:33 i don't know doesn't seem to boot Feb 19 07:16:12 well how are you trying to boot it? Feb 19 07:18:28 got bootloader called wlilo.exe Feb 19 07:19:24 seems like it needs omap branch kernel Feb 19 07:19:45 aaaah, ok, now I see what you mean: from a kernel perspective Feb 19 07:20:13 yes Feb 19 07:21:23 individual ARM SoCs are more different from each other than x86 chipsets/motherboards Feb 19 07:22:04 yes thats what i mean Feb 19 07:25:17 x86 chipsets/mobos have compatibility so they can run DOS. ARM SoCs have nothing like that to force vendors to maintain compatibility Feb 19 07:44:08 do you see http://blog.jeremiahfoster.com/?p=35 aggregated in Planet Maemo or appearing at http://maemo.org/news Feb 19 07:46:00 qgil_afk, there was some issue not even community council blogs were aggreated Feb 19 07:46:05 earlier Feb 19 07:52:15 giorno Feb 19 08:01:40 morning all Feb 19 08:01:45 mornin' Feb 19 08:07:13 morning Feb 19 08:10:20 moo all Feb 19 08:10:36 hey RST38h Feb 19 08:11:10 morn jaem - so you succeeded with the tablet delivery? Feb 19 08:11:13 morning :) Feb 19 08:11:37 yes, actually - I got the tracking number this morning, and it was already here by the time I read the e-mail Feb 19 08:11:56 so, I'm pretty happy Feb 19 08:11:58 wasn't it you with the UPS charge or how was it? Feb 19 08:12:02 yep Feb 19 08:12:03 and the broken internal MMC Feb 19 08:12:07 yep again Feb 19 08:12:12 good Feb 19 08:13:01 this is actually a recurring circumstance for me... I buy something expensive, it breaks, the warranty gets messed up somehow, I spend a week on the phone, and I get something good out of it Feb 19 08:13:26 usually an upgrade, in the past, although this time they just didn't ask for the old accessories back, so I have a spare battery, etc. Feb 19 08:13:27 jaem: well, at least it works out for the best :) Feb 19 08:13:38 indeed Feb 19 08:13:51 at least Nokia is pleasant to deal with, even when they're unhelpful Feb 19 08:14:09 I've been trying to set up Mer while watching a movie... Feb 19 08:14:33 it won't boot - just crashes before the splash - is that a known issue? I didn't see it on the release page Feb 19 08:15:25 er, didn't we have a odd issue before too? Feb 19 08:15:40 and define "before the splash" Feb 19 08:15:45 before the pretty mer logo? Feb 19 08:16:12 yes - the last thing I see is the Nokia logo with the "booting from..." message, and then it crashes Feb 19 08:17:05 ok, and you installed the bootmenu and then utilities->install bootmenu, right? Feb 19 08:17:13 before installing mer Feb 19 08:17:16 yes Feb 19 08:17:20 and it is installed Feb 19 08:17:34 did you use simple or advanced install? Feb 19 08:17:50 advanced - I'd already partitioned/formatted with console-tools Feb 19 08:19:46 can i see your /etc/bootmenu.d item? Feb 19 08:19:58 one sec Feb 19 08:20:22 oh Feb 19 08:20:25 mine did that too. Feb 19 08:20:39 he needs to change the /dev/mmcblkXpX Feb 19 08:20:44 it gets it wrong for some reason Feb 19 08:20:53 no, it seems to be correct Feb 19 08:20:56 let me doublecheck Feb 19 08:21:08 mind is backwards. Feb 19 08:21:20 try switching it and see if it works Feb 19 08:21:43 neatojones: there shouldn't be any mmcblkwhatever in it Feb 19 08:22:07 if there is, b-man has a bug. it should write ${INT_CARD} or ${EXT_CARD} Feb 19 08:22:25 for some reason. My Mer wants to load with the /dev/mmcblk0p1 and /dev/mmcblk0p2 is the swap even though it ought to be a 1 instead of 0 Feb 19 08:22:29 yeah, I noticed that too Feb 19 08:22:50 it was that way before for deblet. Now with the version used for mer it sticks the mmcblk part in there instead Feb 19 08:22:58 not sure why. Just know how to fix it Feb 19 08:23:10 we had a problem in the installer at first regarding internal/external detection Feb 19 08:23:12 it should be fixed now Feb 19 08:23:21 but it definately shouldn't put mmcblk in the items Feb 19 08:23:27 jaem: can i see it? Feb 19 08:23:31 the installer switch is fixed Feb 19 08:23:38 sts: sorry - one sec Feb 19 08:26:00 http://pastebin.ca/1341832 Feb 19 08:27:19 Hi, does anyone know how to get the launch feedback to display (Appname - Loading) when starting up a Qt application? Feb 19 08:27:52 http://www.internettablettalk.com/forums/showpost.php?p=264519&postcount=90 Feb 19 08:28:35 neatojones: I'm using the internal card Feb 19 08:28:39 but thanks Feb 19 08:29:23 k. Feb 19 08:30:18 check your fstab too Feb 19 08:30:28 maybe its mounting something wrong Feb 19 08:30:58 jaem: yeah, it should be ${INT_CARD} instead of mmcblk0 Feb 19 08:31:06 also make sure p2 is actually the ext3 partition Feb 19 08:31:42 I'll try that, and, it is Feb 19 08:31:50 I think the new version is mixing something up and though it should be ${INT_CARD}, I bet mmcblk1 would work Feb 19 08:32:00 it's backwards for some reason. Feb 19 08:33:02 jaem: and then refresh_bootmenu.d Feb 19 08:35:17 Do they make blue-tooth mice? I'd assume so... Feb 19 08:35:30 sts: thanks - that works Feb 19 08:35:53 neatojones: yes, but I can't think of any off the top of my head Feb 19 08:37:03 Does suspend work in Mer? I'm too scared to try it. Feb 19 08:37:45 er, no clue, don't think so :P Feb 19 08:37:56 lol Feb 19 08:38:00 neatojones: I can recommend the logitech v470 Feb 19 08:38:11 neatojones: suspend is many things, what do you mean exactyl? Feb 19 08:38:39 the little logout that is available from most window managers like gnome, kde, xfce Feb 19 08:38:40 etc Feb 19 08:38:58 probably suspend to hard drive Feb 19 08:39:06 whatever that means... Feb 19 08:39:10 as in, hibernate? Feb 19 08:39:11 when you have none Feb 19 08:39:17 does Mer have that feature? Feb 19 08:39:39 doubt it, our kernel doesn't exactly lend itself to it Feb 19 08:39:51 hildon def. doesn't Feb 19 08:40:01 I'm considering reflashing my n800 to diablo but can't find any info on how navicore runs under diablo, anyone here have some insight Feb 19 08:41:21 Soccerties: probably as decent or more than on the former version.. Feb 19 08:41:27 Stskeeps: I was curious about something... Feb 19 08:41:46 jaem: mm? Feb 19 08:42:18 I remember reading in the Maemo bugzilla that TI didn't approve of the kernel patch regarding the MMC slot, included in the rotation kernel, and said that (in theory) it could cause borkage Feb 19 08:42:59 I have no reason to suspect it, but come to think of it, my internal MMC did die shortly after installing that... I'm not saying that's the problem, but I thought I should throw that out there Feb 19 08:43:10 it was otherwise out of the blue Feb 19 08:43:15 is that a possibility? Feb 19 08:43:16 thanks Stskeeps, anyone here use the linuxMCE orbiter under diablo Feb 19 08:43:21 jaem: hmm. Feb 19 08:43:36 they said it was operating out of spec... Feb 19 08:43:45 jaem: as in, nokia said so or? Feb 19 08:43:53 with your device Feb 19 08:44:11 I believe TI said it, as quoted by a Nokia rep - you can check the bugzilla Feb 19 08:44:15 k Feb 19 08:44:38 being an engineering student, operating a chip out of spec doesn't sound like a good idea to me Feb 19 08:44:38 well might be worth posting about on iTT, fanoush would probably pick up on it Feb 19 08:44:42 so I'm somewhat concerned Feb 19 08:45:03 then again being an engineering, operating something out of spec to make it push that extra inch.. Feb 19 08:45:06 an=in Feb 19 08:45:11 true Feb 19 08:45:24 Morning, all Feb 19 08:45:35 That mode has always been unsupported by Ti though, it says in the kernel code. When you make it run at a higher speed, it's generally assumed that you take the risk. Feb 19 08:45:39 morning Jaffa Feb 19 08:45:50 I just didn't want some idiot to start telling everyone that Maemo/Fanoush/whoever is "wrecking tablets", or some such thin Feb 19 08:45:57 so I was hesitant to post it Feb 19 08:46:18 people tend to sensationalize things like that Feb 19 08:46:22 jaem: nah - but i would have asked you to reflash kernel if you had told me back then Feb 19 08:46:29 but if you think so, I'll post it (with caveats) Feb 19 08:46:33 well, I did Feb 19 08:46:39 and it still failed? Feb 19 08:46:40 and the card was definitely toast Feb 19 08:46:46 mmk Feb 19 08:47:03 well post one about a curious occurence of the internal MMC actually dying Feb 19 08:47:07 fresh flash Feb 19 08:47:11 okay - sure Feb 19 08:47:13 and state your theory Feb 19 08:47:22 it might help fix some of the patches for n810 i guess Feb 19 08:47:33 because i have actually never heard of internal MMC dying before Feb 19 08:47:48 willdo, after my show is over Feb 19 08:47:52 well, neither have I Feb 19 08:48:26 but if it has a non-zero possibility of occurence, I could have been the unlucky one Feb 19 08:49:47 SaBer, make a /usr/share/dbus-1/services/.service (example here: http://pastebin.com/d5ff61c7e) and put an "X-Osso-Service=" field in your desktop file and give it the same name you gave in your dbus service file. Then learn how to osso_initialize and put that in your code to stop that program being killed. Feb 19 08:49:53 jaem: you have mer running now, btw? Feb 19 08:49:57 on a n810 Feb 19 08:50:02 I tried that high speed kernel and it messed up a few files on my drive Feb 19 08:50:04 SaBer, after that, you'll get a starting notification Feb 19 08:50:37 I have a class 6 micro SD too Feb 19 08:50:40 so, I quit using it Feb 19 08:50:53 I blamed the kernel anyway. Never had any problems other than that Feb 19 08:51:37 sts: yes, just thinking of a root pw - I'll have it up in a minute Feb 19 08:51:44 qwerty12: ok thanks, I'll take a look at that Feb 19 08:51:57 jaem: if so, can you do me a favour and apt-get update; apt-get dist-upgrade, and restart, and tell me if Fn starts working Feb 19 08:52:18 we have been struggling with HAL and my sshable n810 says the right thing now but .. :P Feb 19 08:52:26 gladly - that was actually the first thing I was going to do anyways Feb 19 08:52:28 sure Feb 19 08:52:47 Stskeeps, did you test mer3 on x86 and zaurus successfully? Feb 19 08:53:10 qwerty12: yeah, i think we're on mer4 now.. Feb 19 08:53:18 o rly Feb 19 08:53:28 What fucked up? Feb 19 08:53:30 10-x11-keymaps.fdi is fucking nasty Feb 19 08:53:40 ah Feb 19 08:53:42 basically HAL callouts are done after FDI gathering information Feb 19 08:54:07 and this particular one, designed to sync console keyboard info and X info, overwrote anything FDI information had provided Feb 19 08:54:12 sts, qwerty: is Fn supposed to work on Mer 0.8? Feb 19 08:54:12 debian-setup-keyboard, obviously Feb 19 08:54:24 jaem: yes, after this apt-get update; apt-get dist-upgrade :P Feb 19 08:54:31 jaem, supposed to after running something but I don't know how :) Feb 19 08:54:47 otherwise you need to do a trick (setxkbmap -model nokiarx44 -layout us) :P Feb 19 08:54:53 this HAL thing makes it autodetect now Feb 19 08:55:02 rzr: i have a 770 now so i hope i can improve things :) Feb 19 08:55:08 ah - that makes sense, but autodetect is important ;) Feb 19 08:55:24 great Feb 19 08:55:35 I went digging through a horrible diff so we could have autodetect :/ Feb 19 08:56:00 qwerty12: we could probabably have had it earlier but stupid 10-x11-keymap.fdi Feb 19 08:56:26 I needed the hal autodetection for powerlaunch anyway Feb 19 08:57:04 morning everybody) Feb 19 08:57:27 morning wazd Feb 19 08:57:45 morning wazd Feb 19 08:58:01 sts: just looking up my WPA key, and then I'll be good to go Feb 19 08:59:57 Stskeeps, is there any harm in making tablet wireless rmmod cx3110x anyway - strictly speaking, isn't "if [ x$DEBLET_RUN_FROM_LINUXRC = 'x' ]; then " outdated as you have the incompatible bootmenu message? Feb 19 09:00:42 qwerty12: hmm. lemme just see that code Feb 19 09:01:12 To get wireless working, I have to remove that if statement and make the modprobe into an insmod. I'd suggest just making modprobe line into modprobe || insmod Feb 19 09:01:54 i don't understand why the modprobe fails.. when i build the images i do actually have a fake inits Feb 19 09:01:58 inifs Feb 19 09:01:58 .. initfs Feb 19 09:02:25 qwerty12: is the N810's keyboard stow/unstow switch supposed to show/hide the on-screen-kbd? Feb 19 09:02:38 Morning Feb 19 09:02:44 morning Feb 19 09:02:48 Meiz pointed me to it last time and he was right, I edited it before I booted 0.8 and it worked with network-manager Feb 19 09:03:07 qwerty12: feel free to submit a patch to bzr :P Feb 19 09:03:10 jaem, I don't think so, the h-i-m plugin available is pretty lacking :/ Feb 19 09:03:29 Stskeeps, will do, would be nice not having to edit it with each release :) Feb 19 09:03:43 bzr branch lp:~mer-committers/m-r/tablet-wireless Feb 19 09:04:12 it should do it based on `uname -r` though Feb 19 09:05:01 It really doesn't and I know mine is still 2.6.21-omap1 :) Feb 19 09:05:08 hehe Feb 19 09:05:08 well, "doesn't" for me Feb 19 09:06:00 http://www.infectious.com/critique/wazd/i-love-blogging-pattern/912 <- vote if you like :) Now!11 :) Feb 19 09:06:27 I have to register *cries* Feb 19 09:06:43 damn Feb 19 09:07:03 hate these systems Feb 19 09:07:44 sts: upgrading... Feb 19 09:07:56 I hate it when they put the UK at the top, I instinctively go to the bottom... Feb 19 09:08:11 wazd, voted Feb 19 09:08:23 qwerty12: thaaaanks! :) Feb 19 09:10:15 Stskeeps, grr, you didn't tell me I'd need ssh keys, I don't usually use them :P Feb 19 09:10:22 (insecure bastard that I am) Feb 19 09:10:25 offtopic does anyone know place where to camplaint pc-suite :P Feb 19 09:10:25 trust me, you'll need them :P Feb 19 09:12:03 lcuk: ping Feb 19 09:12:11 BRB Feb 19 09:12:22 oh, neat, i just got my windows to share its internet connection with my 770 Feb 19 09:13:31 dual core winblows went to its knees when run pc-suite which started 3 copies of it :P Feb 19 09:14:06 hahlo, pc suite takes time on my brother's laptop when one is running :P Feb 19 09:15:52 yes it is awful Feb 19 09:16:05 Oh. I do have ssh keys already there. Probably from the time when I needed them for extras uploading :/ Feb 19 09:16:10 what is "pc-suite"? Feb 19 09:17:22 Nokia PC Suite for their phones, does file transfer and syncing and installation of apps and some other things Feb 19 09:17:36 oh right Feb 19 09:19:19 * Stskeeps stares at 770 Feb 19 09:19:21 wlan0 -and- wlan1? :P Feb 19 09:19:54 You'd think with two interfaces that it wouldn't be allergic to n signals... Feb 19 09:20:59 Stskeeps, before I commit, does this look ok: http://pastebin.com/d63184fd Feb 19 09:22:06 sts: Mer boots fine after dist-upgrade Feb 19 09:22:42 although, on shutdown, there is a graphics glitch where a cursor blinks overtop of the shutdown splash Feb 19 09:23:17 jaem: yeah.. Feb 19 09:23:41 qwerty12: yes Feb 19 09:24:18 qwerty12: and now to generate a source package, make a directory and bzr export DESTDIR WHERE-YOUR-CHECKOUT-IS Feb 19 09:24:26 and cd DESTDIR; dpkg-buildpackage -S -us -uc Feb 19 09:24:38 I thought I was just commiting? Feb 19 09:24:52 Oh. Feb 19 09:24:56 yeah, well, you are welcome to generate a new version too and put it up Feb 19 09:24:57 :P Feb 19 09:24:57 RST38h: hola Feb 19 09:24:58 You want me to upload to the builder? Feb 19 09:25:12 saves me time and gives you an valuable lesson Feb 19 09:25:41 hey wazd Feb 19 09:30:09 "...And J. Edgar Hoover's FBI found itself quietly consumed with the vexing question of whether Valenti was gay." Feb 19 09:30:38 Stskeeps, committed. Wow, that really didn't take long to pick up. :) Feb 19 09:30:49 (yes, MPAA Valenti) Feb 19 09:31:21 um... where's that quote from? Feb 19 09:31:45 ask google? Feb 19 09:32:16 http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/02/18/AR2009021803819.html?nav=igoogle Feb 19 09:35:18 ok, so WPA2 does work on 770 .. but the wifi scanner is a bit fucky Feb 19 09:36:23 rzr: if you want wifi on your 770 mer it is fairly simple Feb 19 09:36:40 but i use wpa_supplicant fori t Feb 19 09:37:12 i dont have it anymore Feb 19 09:37:17 k Feb 19 09:37:33 some of my friend took it w/ it at WMC Feb 19 09:38:01 anyway nice trick for the wifi , i'll test it when i got it back Feb 19 09:38:27 now i am busy w/ openmoko http://www.newlc.com/en/openmoko-deb-packages-and-fosdem-debian-video Feb 19 09:38:49 *nod* Feb 19 09:38:55 saw some of wazd's mockups? Feb 19 09:39:04 they are intentionally made for the openmoko formfactor so Feb 19 09:39:10 er, freerunner Feb 19 09:40:04 good day Feb 19 09:40:32 morning timeless Feb 19 09:41:04 timeless: hola Feb 19 09:42:48 hey, timeless Feb 19 09:43:12 saw some of wazd's mockups? Feb 19 09:43:21 no , do you have some links ? Feb 19 09:43:24 Jaffa, GeneralAntilles: Feed issue fixed. Feb 19 09:43:43 rzr: http://tabletui.wordpress.com , to start Feb 19 09:44:23 X-Fade: now there's a double community highlights Feb 19 09:44:36 Stskeeps: yeah, I'll try to wipe one ;) Feb 19 09:44:37 not that seeing GA's smiling face twice doesn't light up your day, but .. Feb 19 09:45:05 Don't want GA to karma whore on two articles at the same time. Feb 19 09:46:48 jaem: i dont see anything on om devices ? Feb 19 09:47:06 Stskeeps, tablet-wireless should be binary-indep too... Feb 19 09:47:13 I misread what you said Feb 19 09:47:14 qwerty12: yeah, some of them are in need of cleanu Feb 19 09:47:15 p Feb 19 09:47:24 >_< Feb 19 09:47:30 rzr: http://tabletui.wordpress.com/2009/02/18/mer-ui-scalability/ , 640x480 layout Feb 19 09:47:33 Want me to do tablet-wireless? Feb 19 09:47:34 s Feb 19 09:47:47 qwerty12: if you're bored Feb 19 09:48:02 Shouldn't take me long, I've been getting practice in :/ Feb 19 09:48:42 Stskeeps: ok , i was on this page too Feb 19 09:49:10 Stskeeps: what about the opposite , FSO on tablets ? Feb 19 09:50:06 rzr: openembedded.. and mamona was based on that and it seems to have taken quite a long time for them Feb 19 09:50:19 sts: thoughts on my ramblings? Feb 19 09:50:28 jaem: there's a new 1.1.2pre langpack Feb 19 09:50:31 timeless: the one at 3am last night? :P Feb 19 09:50:33 dunno if it works, it needs testing Feb 19 09:50:38 yeah that one Feb 19 09:51:43 replied in msg when i woke up :P no particular views, was based on something i noticed when i copied over the internal MMC of a n810 and thought was curious, but i am in no way an ogg evangelist (.. except when i was 16) and yeah, your arguments make sense Feb 19 09:52:50 timeless: yes...? Feb 19 09:56:07 sts: k, i only really read my scrollback if i know i need to (i just checked and found your reply) Feb 19 09:56:20 fwiw, i was personally annoyed when i found it Feb 19 09:56:33 as i expected it would undermine the nokia view Feb 19 09:56:44 it's not wrong, but it's definitely harder Feb 19 09:56:53 it confuses the issue Feb 19 09:57:13 as it happens, i'm neither a fan of the format nor a fan of the lawyers opinion of the format Feb 19 09:57:28 s/lawyers/lawyers'/ Feb 19 09:57:28 timeless meant: as it happens, i'm neither a fan of the format nor a fan of the lawyers' opinion of the format Feb 19 09:57:56 right, so, is there a known issue that scanning while being associated messes up 770 wifi connections? Feb 19 09:58:07 heh Feb 19 09:58:11 * timeless shrugs Feb 19 09:58:20 (not specifically asking you :P) Feb 19 09:58:57 qwerty12: does wifi-radar and such use wpa_supplicant? Feb 19 09:59:57 Stskeeps, wifi-radar is horrible, I avoided it. But I'm pretty sure wicd does. Feb 19 10:00:55 mm Feb 19 10:02:11 With wifi-radar, I couldn't even connect to a network because I wasn't able to enter my details because it ran so slow. wicd worked well, and it has a decent interface. Only thing was that it would insist on reconnecting until I told it not to reconnect Feb 19 10:02:33 s/reconnecting/reconnecting when I was connected/ Feb 19 10:02:34 qwerty12 meant: With wifi-radar, I couldn't even connect to a network because I wasn't able to enter my details because it ran so slow. wicd worked well, and it has a decent interface. Only thing was that it would insist on reconnecting when I was connected until I told ... Feb 19 10:04:56 mm, but is wicd girlfriend friendly Feb 19 10:06:48 Once the network details were inputted, it'd automatically connect with no input every time I rebooted. Only thing is that it doesn't seem to have an applet, you have to run its manager program manually to see the status. Feb 19 10:15:46 hello, is there no way to sync a maemo calendar app with a linux calendar app? if not, what could be the easyiest apps to code a sync app? maybe i will take a try...some ideas? Feb 19 10:18:09 I tried out gpe-mininet yesterday. It worked fine, but didn't support WPA keys Feb 19 10:18:57 it basically was the gpe version of nm-applet Feb 19 10:20:27 * timeless grumbles Feb 19 10:20:36 how is a guy supposed to find a picture of peanut butter? Feb 19 10:21:02 take one Feb 19 10:21:22 http://www.thegreenhead.com/imgs/peanut-butter-jelly-spreader-2.jpg Feb 19 10:21:23 :) Feb 19 10:22:28 that's one of those "it's obvious, it should have been invented years ago, and it will only ever be sold to fools on infomercials" products ;) Feb 19 10:22:35 but still, kind of neat Feb 19 10:23:07 not quite up there with the titanium spork, though (although apparently those wreck some types of dishes) Feb 19 10:23:16 heh Feb 19 10:25:30 hummm.. Any tips on debugging applicatin startup? I made .service and .desktop files for my app, but now it wont start. I've checked them many times, but can't find out what's wrong... Feb 19 10:26:29 i restarted nm-applet and despite many restarts, it never has showed back up on the system tray Feb 19 10:26:35 makes me wanna break something Feb 19 10:26:37 You sure that the Name & X-Osso-Service fields match? And that the Exec field in your service is correct? Feb 19 10:26:38 jesus, there's a lot of OS2007HE bugs Feb 19 10:26:59 Name as in the Name field in your service file Feb 19 10:27:00 qwerty12: yes, I've checked them many times :( Feb 19 10:27:06 odd :/ Feb 19 10:27:53 Usually what happens is that your program will start but then get killed after 60s as you forget to osso_initialize it :P Feb 19 10:28:27 saber: do you have a dbus service? Feb 19 10:28:35 if you run your app from the shell Feb 19 10:28:49 (xterm/ssh), does it survive? and can you speak to it via dbus? Feb 19 10:29:52 timeless: running it from the shell works fine Feb 19 10:30:24 timeless: I'm only using this dbus stuff to get launch feedback :P Feb 19 10:30:45 Mmm peanutbutter Feb 19 10:32:41 jeremiah: about http://blog.jeremiahfoster.com/?p=35 I think it's a bit confusing Feb 19 10:32:46 lol: http://technology.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/tech_and_web/article5727189.ece Feb 19 10:32:50 rather sensationalist Feb 19 10:32:58 4th paragraph Feb 19 10:32:59 There is a security team in Maemo working on the security of the OS itself Feb 19 10:33:27 community feedback welcome but I guess they are covering more or less the field Feb 19 10:33:35 what still needs to be discussed at a community level though Feb 19 10:33:50 qgil: Where is there info on the security team? Feb 19 10:33:53 is how to make sure that developers are aware of security issues Feb 19 10:33:59 jeremiah: so, you have two bugs.maemo.org accounts Feb 19 10:34:02 SaBer, hmm, try adding "X-Osso-Type=application/x-executable" to your desktop file Feb 19 10:34:03 which makes my life painful Feb 19 10:34:06 do you need both? :) Feb 19 10:34:11 timeless: Not that I know of Feb 19 10:34:21 And no, I only need one. :) Feb 19 10:34:25 and how to have a process making sure that apps promoted to extras are found to be secure Feb 19 10:34:37 I would really like to see that the maemo.org repositories are at least at a higher level of security than some random repo. Feb 19 10:35:06 For this we would need to actively maintain and follow up on issues. Feb 19 10:35:13 qgil: So what is the Maemo security and is it separate from internal Nokia? Feb 19 10:35:17 andre__: see, please collapse his other one :) Feb 19 10:35:27 let me find links Feb 19 10:35:28 http://maemo.org/community/security/ Feb 19 10:35:38 jeremiah: Everything Maemo (capital M) is Maemo software inside Nokia. Feb 19 10:35:39 community/security? Feb 19 10:35:41 strange link Feb 19 10:35:54 qgil: thanks, reading . . . Feb 19 10:36:05 qgil: Yeah, I saw that. Feb 19 10:36:18 jeremiah: That are the guys I introduced you to. Feb 19 10:36:21 But it does not really address things like policy. Feb 19 10:36:55 goodnight, #maemo Feb 19 10:36:55 What happens if an app in extras provides priviledge escalation? Feb 19 10:36:58 http://maemo.org/maemo_release_documentation/maemo4.1.x/node16.html Feb 19 10:37:02 Can you ban it? Feb 19 10:37:16 jeremiah: You can remove it. Feb 19 10:37:25 jeremiah: But there is no policy for that. Feb 19 10:37:39 x-fade: removing it means that all current victims remain? Feb 19 10:37:39 maybe a flagging system could be interesting too, kinda like portaudit on freebsd.. Feb 19 10:37:56 timeless: Sure, we don't have any evil kill switches ;) Feb 19 10:38:05 timeless: The only thing we can do is offer an update. Feb 19 10:38:11 that'd be better Feb 19 10:38:13 But isn't this something that Antti pointed to? That there is a lack of clarity? Feb 19 10:38:24 Around security policy? Feb 19 10:38:26 HAM could pop up a message saying "you might have insecure applications" :P Feb 19 10:38:27 avs afaiu is the internal contact Feb 19 10:38:34 sts: grr Feb 19 10:38:40 And kill switches seem truly evil in a community like this Feb 19 10:38:41 ham already has enough messages Feb 19 10:38:44 one more will kill me Feb 19 10:39:10 it would be nice to have a more elegant method than messages Feb 19 10:39:36 Stskeeps, please don't suggest that, even in a joking manner. :P Feb 19 10:40:16 qwerty12: well it checks updates anyway.. why not also pop up Clippy and say "I see you have the following applications installed, which has been marked as maemo.org as insecure.." Feb 19 10:40:31 (pardon my bad grammar) Feb 19 10:40:58 sts: no, pop clippy up and have him say "I see that you have an insecure application. would you like me to enable root ssh login?" - that's more his style Feb 19 10:41:05 jeremiah: so any progress on security for community apps should be build on top of those 2 URLs Feb 19 10:41:06 Heh, I guess I'm just a person who finds Nokia's disclaimer annoying in HAM and takes steps to remove it ;) Feb 19 10:41:07 "Would you like to A) remove them B) keep them or C) let them battle in an arena" Feb 19 10:41:27 qgil: Right. That make sense. Feb 19 10:41:38 sts: C), like http://xkcd.com/350/ ? Feb 19 10:41:49 wait... nvm Feb 19 10:41:53 jaem_afk: yes, i have occasionally considered that Feb 19 10:42:00 qgil: I just worry about software in the repos that might be rootkits and what to do about it. Feb 19 10:42:04 I have too... but the LCD would be too expensive Feb 19 10:42:05 and any proposals about improving the security of Maemo (the OS) should be dealt through enhancement requests in bugs.maemo.org for instance Feb 19 10:42:25 jaem: nice Feb 19 10:42:30 jeremiah: if you worry about unsecure software in the repos, imagine Nokia :) Feb 19 10:42:44 qgil: Precisely. Feb 19 10:42:45 jeremiah: 'rootsh' is about as much of a rootkit as you can get :P Feb 19 10:42:55 or .desktop files Feb 19 10:42:58 * timeless grumbles Feb 19 10:43:08 the way to deal with this is to concentrate on extras and the filters to get there Feb 19 10:43:10 who needs packages when you can just send people .desktop files Feb 19 10:43:28 timeless, but you need to be root to add them :> Feb 19 10:43:47 qgil: That seems like the right approach, but I would want to be open and explicit about why a package does, or does not get in. Feb 19 10:44:04 qwerty: we don't run .desktop files? Feb 19 10:44:09 If it fails some sort of filter, that cannot seem to be arbitrary Feb 19 10:44:23 X-Fade: actually this discussion is very timely since the alpha SDK is around the corner (well, in few weeks) and it will contain everything for developers to start populating a fremantle repo Feb 19 10:44:46 jeremiah: sure, a community process needs to be documented and be open for anybody to watch and judge Feb 19 10:44:54 timeless, well, sh -c example.desktop doesn't really work. They're parsed by hildon-desktop Feb 19 10:44:56 qwerty12: it seems the "deprecated" third parameter to osso_initialize has to be set to false :( But now it finally works \o/ Feb 19 10:45:13 jeremiah: I would agree, as not doing so goes with "kill-switch" in the 'too-Apple-ish" category Feb 19 10:45:17 SaBer, heh, w00t! Feb 19 10:45:29 jaem_afk: Exactly. Feb 19 10:45:49 so to make sure we get the same picture: Feb 19 10:46:05 Nokia would not go to extras and remove an app Feb 19 10:46:08 http://xkcd.com/368/ Feb 19 10:46:19 Nokia would expect that the community process has prevented unsecure apps from appearing there Feb 19 10:46:35 and if there has been a mistake, there is also a community process to remove an app from there Feb 19 10:47:04 ...would it be possible to notify the user only when they try to run the offending app? Thus preventing random notifications, but still getting the job done? Feb 19 10:47:18 So I ought to be discussing a repo filtering process rather than a security process? Feb 19 10:47:35 then Nokia can help by discussing the security criteria, funding whatever tools need to be implemented and put some resources that would help on watching new apps willing to get promoted to extras Feb 19 10:48:06 jaem: too kill switchy Feb 19 10:48:10 jeremiah: well, I don't see the thin line Feb 19 10:48:15 or too spy'y Feb 19 10:48:20 someone would complain we're snooping Feb 19 10:48:35 "i know you run <> x times a day" Feb 19 10:48:49 timeless: I was thinking that the update manager could "retrieve" any notices, but just delay them to be triggered when the app is actually used Feb 19 10:48:58 and still let you override it if you really want to Feb 19 10:49:03 jaem_notafk: Seems complicated. Feb 19 10:49:05 it's also a quality consideration: if you app is buggy (or malicious) you go out of the main repo and full stop - you can probably still be in extras-devel or whatever in quaranteene Feb 19 10:49:07 too much effort Feb 19 10:49:10 jeremiah: yes, it does Feb 19 10:49:16 might as well tell you about the updates when it knows about them Feb 19 10:49:16 timeless: probably - just a suggestion Feb 19 10:49:29 well, that's a thought too Feb 19 10:50:06 I think we can feed security notification back in the Application Manager? Feb 19 10:50:11 http://xkcd.com/469/ Feb 19 10:50:17 Okay. This begins to mirror debian's repository policys, where they provide a new package when a package that has been submitted has an exploit Feb 19 10:50:24 So a user can be warned about a problematic program. Feb 19 10:50:38 but does it replace the package? or just add a notice? Feb 19 10:50:58 Well, if we have an update AM will already show the SSU icon.. Feb 19 10:51:08 alternatively, you could just pull some sort of separate feed of security notices from the maemo website, and filter it according to what's installed Feb 19 10:51:17 debian _replaces_ the package with a NMU (non-maintainter upload) Feb 19 10:51:38 is that package a dummy, or empty, or what? Feb 19 10:51:44 jaem_notafk: That is also a good policy, but put the burden on the user. Feb 19 10:51:57 security is one aspect of the filtering process Feb 19 10:51:58 fwiw, browser studies show that burdening the user doesn't work Feb 19 10:52:13 if it isn't automatic, it's as good as useless/unused Feb 19 10:52:17 timeless: The package is a regular full package, with a patch, but security team has created it. Feb 19 10:52:41 jeremiah: I'm not sure how it "burdens" them... ? Feb 19 10:52:53 what we need at the end is a filtering process considering also that the app is feature complete, installs, is stable, doesn't kill the system resources, power management... Feb 19 10:53:04 jeremiah: so they *fix* the package? Feb 19 10:53:11 what if they can't find a fix? Feb 19 10:53:23 jaem_notafk: Well, if you got an app that wiped out your hard drive, you would blame Maemo not yourself. Feb 19 10:53:24 how long do they wait w/ the package deployed and unfixed? Feb 19 10:53:46 jaem_notafk: So if Maemo were to say "hey, that is your fault not ours" Feb 19 10:53:58 jeremiah: if we're considering some sort of notification, aren't we presuming the device still mostly works? Feb 19 10:54:00 jaem_notafk: You would feel that that is an undue burden Feb 19 10:54:24 timeless: They usually do, but they wait to announce until they have a fix and a new package. Feb 19 10:54:49 timeless: So yeah, they fix the package and send the fix upstream Feb 19 10:55:00 "So if Maemo were to say "hey, that is your fault not ours"" - this comes from the disclaimers that users dislike so much :) Feb 19 10:55:37 jeremiah: I think you misunderstand me Feb 19 10:55:47 Exactly. It is unfair to users to pass on trojans, rootkits, etc. Feb 19 10:55:57 still, no matter the disclaimers, if the issue is affecting thousands of users only the calls to customer care and visits to the shop are an expensive hassle Feb 19 10:56:26 A platform's reputation is its quality control. Feb 19 10:56:40 or if someone blogs about something and Engadget picks that up and the Nokia logo is involved... these kind of things Feb 19 10:57:01 jeremiah: I would hope the current process would preclude trojans getting in the repo, in any case - but I take your point Feb 19 10:57:23 jaem_notafk: the fact is that "the current process" does not prevent that Feb 19 10:57:31 oh Feb 19 10:57:32 and this is what needs to be improved in Fremantle Feb 19 10:57:34 that would be an issue Feb 19 10:57:43 jaem_notafk: I would hope so too, and I imagine it has. But the cost of it happening is too great not to address. Feb 19 10:57:45 * timeless wonders what the current process is Feb 19 10:58:03 * jeremiah wonders as well Feb 19 10:58:14 what is the current policy for getting a pkg into extras? Feb 19 10:58:15 jaem_notafk: willing to bet it is fairly easy to upload let's say.. Internet Explorer package which is a trojan ssh tunneling your X11VNC server somewhere :P Feb 19 10:58:15 http://wiki.maemo.org/Extras Feb 19 10:58:27 * jeremiah would like some more concrete policy so that users know explicitly Feb 19 10:59:00 * jaem_notafk reads policy Feb 19 10:59:02 isn't maemo extras special by the fact it is developers and not maintainers uploading? Feb 19 10:59:06 and more exactly http://wiki.maemo.org/Uploading_to_Extras#Promotion Feb 19 10:59:16 whereas debian maintainers need to show their worth Feb 19 10:59:39 Please make sure your package is ready for the masses and at least test: if it installs without problems if it uninstalls without problems if it doesn't introduce dependency problems for other packages. Feb 19 10:59:49 Stskeeps: Yes, mostly true. But the barrier to entry is still quite low in debian. Feb 19 11:00:04 If you are not a DD you cannot upload to debian. Feb 19 11:00:17 qgil: I see your concern now :S Feb 19 11:00:26 jeremiah: still, it isn't quite walk-in-from-the-street-and-upload :) Feb 19 11:00:30 But nearly anyone can go through mentors and have someone sponsor their upload. Feb 19 11:00:42 jeremiah: yeah, and the hope is there is some degree of package review then Feb 19 11:00:44 Stskeeps: No, you are right. :) Feb 19 11:00:45 hrm Feb 19 11:00:48 so... Feb 19 11:00:50 jeremiah? Feb 19 11:00:53 Yes? Feb 19 11:00:55 i can't get my package out of extras-devel Feb 19 11:00:59 it fails promotion :) Feb 19 11:01:05 Please make sure your package is ready for the masses and at least test: Feb 19 11:01:08 if it uninstalls without problems Feb 19 11:01:17 Good point. Feb 19 11:01:46 I can remove the package from extras-devel by hand if you like, Feb 19 11:01:46 so, um... "help" :) Feb 19 11:01:47 then again, the open attitude to extras does mean development and uptake of platform may be faster.. Feb 19 11:01:50 what is it called? Feb 19 11:01:55 nah, extras-devel is fine Feb 19 11:02:02 it's only a requirement for going into extras Feb 19 11:02:05 (at the cost of some sanity) Feb 19 11:02:07 Oh I see! Feb 19 11:02:31 Promotion should have the QA step. Feb 19 11:02:38 x-fade: so... Feb 19 11:02:46 i talked to mvo Feb 19 11:02:52 X-Fade: Yeah, I agree, that is where the qa should happen. Feb 19 11:02:55 Question is, what QA and what policy and who will do that.. Feb 19 11:03:04 Precisely. Feb 19 11:03:05 (is that his nick?) Feb 19 11:03:08 members of community Feb 19 11:03:17 and basically he acknowledges that this stuff isn't going to work well Feb 19 11:03:18 timeless: m-vo usually, i think Feb 19 11:03:23 Stskeeps: A team of repo maintainers, yes. Feb 19 11:03:36 he suggested i could hack gettext (which he thinks is part of glibc) Feb 19 11:03:45 i told him i wasn't interested in forking glibc Feb 19 11:03:53 anyone has gentoo? i need to make usb networking :) Feb 19 11:03:56 X-Fade: well, there is a reason why we got a full time debmaster... Feb 19 11:04:16 :) Feb 19 11:04:27 qgil: Exactly ;) I've discussed this very issue with Jeremiah yesterday btw ;) Feb 19 11:04:37 jeremiah: so... Feb 19 11:04:55 m-vo didn't think dpkg-divert sounded particularly good Feb 19 11:05:07 Ideally developer would request promotion. QA will do the promotion after OK. Feb 19 11:05:11 a related discussion that needs a resolution to be made between alpha and beta release is Feb 19 11:05:14 timeless: gettext is in gettext-base in ubuntu, at least Feb 19 11:05:18 i think i'm leaning toward a thing which does a backup at preinst and a restore at postinst Feb 19 11:05:30 whether we keep the extras-devel ---> extras bi-repo situation we have now Feb 19 11:05:31 stskeeps: the actual gettext() function itself? Feb 19 11:05:47 timeless: oh, gettext function itself - i thought you meant /usr/bin/gettext Feb 19 11:05:47 timeless, I'd hope it was restored at postrm :) Feb 19 11:05:56 or we go for the 3 levels experimental/unstable --> testing --> stable Feb 19 11:06:08 ... Feb 19 11:06:18 extras-devel / extras-test / extras Feb 19 11:06:25 I think we all agree that Extras needs to be enabled on the device by default. And that an end-user should expect stable, maintained apps there.. Feb 19 11:06:27 qgil: The three layered approach provides more places for qa and automated testing. Feb 19 11:06:42 jeremiah: and more chances that it doesn't get used Feb 19 11:06:45 jeremiah: I know and I'm for it Feb 19 11:06:46 * Stskeeps personally believes in personal package archives -> extras-test -> extras instead Feb 19 11:06:51 c.f. sardine (dead) Feb 19 11:06:52 Please not that in debian unstable -> testing is a time delay based thing. Feb 19 11:06:57 we have started that discussion many times, but never got to a conclusion, be it 2 or 3 levels Feb 19 11:07:01 Not active QA. Feb 19 11:07:11 where PPAs are garage based Feb 19 11:07:18 PPA? Feb 19 11:07:21 timeless: You're right - the additional layers of indirection mean fewer apps get used by the end user. Feb 19 11:07:25 personal package archives, like launchpad's Feb 19 11:07:41 either way, where QA is done is important - I can go post a *.install on ITT that adds extra-devel, so that people can try out my New Great App (TM), and then we run into the same problem Feb 19 11:07:45 want to alpha test a product? add the PPA Feb 19 11:07:46 :P Feb 19 11:07:46 sorry, pretend i don't know what launchpad is Feb 19 11:07:52 sts: I'm a fan of PPAs Feb 19 11:08:08 timeless: basically a per-developer repository, but centrally based Feb 19 11:08:10 sts: i think gan/jaffa/x-fade campaigned against ppa Feb 19 11:08:11 replace garage with launchpad.net :) Feb 19 11:08:22 my non-techical point of view here is: Feb 19 11:08:24 sts: they also shift the responsibility/blame more onto the shoulders of the individual devs Feb 19 11:08:27 But PPAs just create more problems Feb 19 11:08:29 that's basically what we had before w/ extras Feb 19 11:08:31 jaem_notafk: I think that is were Application Manager can help. It can add these awful warnings for 'not trusted' repos. Feb 19 11:08:39 You have repos everywhere Feb 19 11:08:53 timeless: not entirely, PPAs are backed by autobuilder and hosted @ centralized spot Feb 19 11:08:55 - extras for the masses, in Maemo 5 is active by default and will be kept there unless there are too many problems found by real users Feb 19 11:09:17 timeless: and focused upon one product at at time or a developer Feb 19 11:09:20 so, who does promotion today, and why? Feb 19 11:09:21 http://s47.radikal.ru/i116/0902/1b/31002b96683d.jpg Feb 19 11:09:27 is it really the developer? Feb 19 11:09:28 I'm totally sick Feb 19 11:09:28 timeless: Anybody.. Feb 19 11:09:36 hello qgil) Feb 19 11:09:36 personally, i'd rather *not* be the one who promotes my package Feb 19 11:09:37 wazd: hah :> Feb 19 11:09:40 - extras-test or extras-beta or something along these lines for software that is found good enough by the own developers but needs still peer review, QA and what not Feb 19 11:09:42 x-fade: if we still have all the other awful warnings, Joe User will probably just click through that one without reading Feb 19 11:09:43 i'm fine w/ "nominating" a package Feb 19 11:09:46 still, though, it might work Feb 19 11:09:50 and then having a referendum Feb 19 11:10:01 where people can comment saying "i tested, and feel it's ready" Feb 19 11:10:03 jaem_notafk: That would imply that trusted repos won't have it of course. Feb 19 11:10:10 after a certain point, someone reviews and decides if it's ready Feb 19 11:10:17 x-fade: just checking Feb 19 11:10:23 and extras-devel -unstable -experimental or PPA or whatever you want for anything definitely not intended for end users, not even for power users willing to test fresh stuff Feb 19 11:10:25 wazd: you should make a talk about stealing with arms and legs.. Feb 19 11:10:26 IMNHSO the application manager could have 1-5 stars selector, which would enable repos extas-one-star -> extras-five-star according to how many stars users selected Feb 19 11:10:45 jeremiah/qgil: btw, you should look at how addons.mozilla.org works w/ their extension sandbox Feb 19 11:10:49 then have some accepted QA criteria to select which "star category" a package belongs to Feb 19 11:10:50 I should send it to engadget) Feb 19 11:10:59 So it appears we have consesnsus around a three repo plan? Feb 19 11:11:12 jeremiah: I'm not a fan. Feb 19 11:11:12 Following qgil's format? Feb 19 11:11:17 X-Fade: Aha. Feb 19 11:11:19 jeremiah: if PPAs are out, that would be my next vote Feb 19 11:11:20 suihkulokki: the ui wizards have wanted stars for ham forever Feb 19 11:11:30 * timeless has no idea if it'll ever happen Feb 19 11:11:32 jeremiah: Well, adding yet another repo doesn't fix things by itself. Feb 19 11:12:03 In debian testing is about as likely to break as unstable. Feb 19 11:12:10 X-Fade: Think of it not as a repo, but as a place where you can hammer the potential package with scripts testing quality. Feb 19 11:12:14 something in the line of 1 star being "I managed to compile it, it works sometimes, UI is not tablet-optimized" and 5 stars being "doesn't crash and has well optimized UI for tablet" Feb 19 11:12:29 If nobody cared to test a package it automatically moved from unstable to testing without problems. Feb 19 11:12:39 but I think we need to make it clear that there is a "good" repo, a "try it at your own risk" repo, and a 'will eat your children" repo, and not just good/sort-of-good/almost-as-good Feb 19 11:12:53 jaem_notafk: Yeah, I agree. Feb 19 11:13:03 nod Feb 19 11:13:14 if people are advertising their New Great Program (TM) as soon as it compiles, people are going to install it no matter the warnings Feb 19 11:13:19 It would be nice to have defined what one can expect from a repo. Feb 19 11:13:45 I think it is crucial that we state publically what the repos contain Feb 19 11:13:45 I'm putting together the pieces for a "Maemo betatester" plan and it would be good to have something between extras and extras-totally-unfiltered-devel Feb 19 11:14:01 But would a developer like it if it takes a few days from upload to appearance in Extras? Feb 19 11:14:18 x-fade: who cares? Feb 19 11:14:18 It takes ten days for _anything_ to get into debian. Feb 19 11:14:26 I think a short wait is reasonable. Feb 19 11:14:30 well, there's nothing stopping a dev from posting a deb on their own website/Garage in the mean time Feb 19 11:14:33 people do that anyways Feb 19 11:14:33 x-fade: it's taken me weeks to go nowhere w/ my package Feb 19 11:14:34 jeremiah: Yes and people complain about that ;) Feb 19 11:14:48 if a dev is in a hurry, they can cheat and use their own repo Feb 19 11:14:52 that said Feb 19 11:14:59 i don't think a time based system is the right answer Feb 19 11:15:08 the right answer is a list of people who can collectively approve something Feb 19 11:15:12 Well, what if a fix to a bugged package takes a developer the same time? Feb 19 11:15:23 Is that a going to be a problem? Feb 19 11:15:23 X-Fade: But people love the stability of debian too, so I think the balance is there. Feb 19 11:15:23 so if i can find 5/10 of them on irc w/in a smaller window i can get it approved Feb 19 11:15:23 that said many users do a mistake once and even twice installing something that looked cool from somewhere Feb 19 11:15:38 jeremiah: which is why people use ubuntu Feb 19 11:15:45 please don't suggest stability as the reason Feb 19 11:15:47 but many of them do learn and stick to repos once they see how beautiful is not to have to reflash and etc Feb 19 11:15:55 debian stable is known for glacial pace Feb 19 11:16:06 timeless: Which is why people use it. Feb 19 11:16:09 maemo is used in Nokia devices targetted at people who are on the edge Feb 19 11:16:12 qgil: which is why we need to get the message across to the devs, too Feb 19 11:16:14 early adopters Feb 19 11:16:16 * Jaffa thinks he had an earlier blog post on QA Feb 19 11:16:28 jeremiah: But this is what gave ubunut it's boost. Feb 19 11:16:39 early adopters are not the people who wait 5 years before they adopt a product Feb 19 11:16:39 Can I give my 2 kopeykas?) Feb 19 11:16:40 X-Fade: And subsequent fall. Feb 19 11:16:44 jaem_notafk: sure, and a way to send the message to the developers is: Feb 19 11:16:44 So we need to find some kind of middle ground for that. Feb 19 11:16:57 blog about your app and put your deb in your homepage if you wish Feb 19 11:16:59 Lots of upstream projects return to debian because of its stability, mepis, etc. Feb 19 11:17:04 http://www.maemopeople.org/index.php/jaffa/2008/01/13/solving_the_lack_of_qa_and_muliple_repos Feb 19 11:17:20 but by no means you are going to be promoted in *.maemo.org and even less in maemo.nokia.com Feb 19 11:17:24 jaffa: spell check your titles? Feb 19 11:17:30 and that's where the stuff really happens Feb 19 11:17:37 timeless, damn, you beat me Feb 19 11:17:46 inz: glad to have a race :) Feb 19 11:18:01 qgil: sounds good Feb 19 11:18:13 qgil: I also think we need to fix this in AM. That is still where most people get their apps. Feb 19 11:18:24 AM? Feb 19 11:18:26 ham Feb 19 11:18:28 h-a-m Feb 19 11:18:30 qgil: And if a user clicks one .install from gronmayer, he has it all. Feb 19 11:18:30 IRC is teh best spellchecker eva; just post a link and people will complain ;) Feb 19 11:18:32 ... Feb 19 11:18:33 jeremiah: hildon application manager Feb 19 11:18:42 Stskeeps: Thanks :) Feb 19 11:18:58 qgil: No differentiation between official repos and just a random one. Feb 19 11:19:02 x-fade: we should offer to disable repos after the install process finishes Feb 19 11:19:12 X-Fade: Yes, this is what Ville and Elena are looking at Feb 19 11:19:13 timeless: that's a start Feb 19 11:19:16 however, that doesn't really do the right thing Feb 19 11:19:25 because i really do want updates for my app Feb 19 11:19:39 timeless: I think we really need colored backgrounds in the app list, indicating the source. Feb 19 11:19:41 is there a mechanism in apt repos for differentiation/ Feb 19 11:19:44 timeless: Or something like that. Feb 19 11:19:59 x-fade; something like that could be interesting Feb 19 11:20:00 Or put everything trusted on top. Feb 19 11:20:03 colors is of course wrong Feb 19 11:20:07 no. Feb 19 11:20:09 no no :) Feb 19 11:20:14 timeless: Or icons or whatever. Feb 19 11:20:16 sorry, having dealt w/ long lists Feb 19 11:20:26 icons have issues too, who picks them? Feb 19 11:20:28 but if the extras process is good enough, good developers will not go elsewhere and the average end user will not feel the need to go elsewhere either Feb 19 11:20:30 Stability switch on the bar.. Feb 19 11:20:33 what if two repos pick 'similar' icons Feb 19 11:20:42 "ooh... I like the yellow-and-black striped apps... let's install them!" Feb 19 11:20:46 it's been some years now since I last installed a non-official repo in my Linux desktop Feb 19 11:20:52 "what's that it says? 'caution'" Feb 19 11:20:57 because basically what I need is in the official repos already Feb 19 11:21:03 qgil: I think this will probably be the case actually. Lots of good quality apps in Maemo Feb 19 11:21:04 qgil: how much software do you install on your desktop? Feb 19 11:21:15 personally i don't install much at all Feb 19 11:21:37 I install tons of stuff and I run debian unstable. Even that is rock solid Feb 19 11:21:47 timeless: also true, I got the apps I need and I don't care much about whetever else Feb 19 11:21:58 qgil: there's nothing wrong w/ that Feb 19 11:21:59 x-fade, timeless: the problem still remains... if we let the user click it, they will; if we don't, we're evil... Feb 19 11:22:03 timeless: Well Nokia isn't going to ship a firmware with a bunch of community apps (yet) Feb 19 11:22:03 some compromise is needed Feb 19 11:22:10 it's jsut that essentially you're no longer a bleeding early adopter Feb 19 11:22:13 nor am i Feb 19 11:22:19 timeless: but actually something similar might happen with the average maemo 5 user Feb 19 11:22:21 timeless: So we need some easy way to install some apps :) Feb 19 11:22:25 you start trying out a bunch of things Feb 19 11:22:29 qgil: ideally yeah Feb 19 11:22:38 personally, for my boxes, i'll install a base Feb 19 11:22:41 ZFS-snapshot Feb 19 11:22:46 after some months you keep what matters and from time to time you give a try to something else Feb 19 11:22:48 then install a bunch of experiments Feb 19 11:22:51 note which ones i like Feb 19 11:22:52 basically after recommendations and etc Feb 19 11:22:53 ZFS-rollback Feb 19 11:23:00 and then install the useful ones again Feb 19 11:23:21 timeless: That doesn't sound like avarage joe behavior to me :D Feb 19 11:23:22 timeless: You're not running linux with ZFS? Feb 19 11:23:28 It isn't in the kernel Feb 19 11:23:30 in maemo4, that's basically buy device, setup stuff, backup, install junk, reflash, restore, install relevant stuff Feb 19 11:23:44 jeremiah: i run osol/snv Feb 19 11:23:59 (and nexenta and a centos lx branded zone) Feb 19 11:24:11 timeless: :S Feb 19 11:24:15 ok guys, I should be doping something else Feb 19 11:24:25 hopefully the feedback was useful jeremiah :) Feb 19 11:24:29 qgil: don't dope! Feb 19 11:24:30 Very Feb 19 11:24:32 In short I think we need: QA process in promotion fase, AM modification to show trust level of software. Feb 19 11:24:33 doping? doing! Feb 19 11:24:43 Doing dope? Feb 19 11:24:45 doing LCD? Feb 19 11:24:47 qgil: paying too much attn to american baseball? Feb 19 11:24:49 sniffing wifi? Feb 19 11:25:03 Extra level of repo? Maybe, if well defined and proven to be beneficial? Feb 19 11:25:04 timelin my next life perhaps Feb 19 11:25:10 heh Feb 19 11:25:37 X-Fade: the pragmatic approach is to start with extras-devel only in fremantle Feb 19 11:25:51 and don't let anybody jumpt to a more stable evel until there is a process in place Feb 19 11:25:52 X-Fade: Maybe one should think of it as a testing zone that people can upload to Feb 19 11:25:54 qgil: For alpha and beta sure.. Feb 19 11:26:21 alpha is a good time to setup the devel repo and start the discussion (really) Feb 19 11:26:26 how hard would it be to pick 12-24 people who can help a package from extras-devel to extras Feb 19 11:26:29 qgil: We have some time to test things out there and no real users to worry about... yet. Feb 19 11:26:32 beta is a good time to start getting into conclusions :) Feb 19 11:26:42 and then require 3 or maybe 5 votes before a package jumps Feb 19 11:26:55 btw, do we expect someone to get a new approval for each package update Feb 19 11:27:02 or just the first version that's included in extras? Feb 19 11:27:07 timeless: That only works if people actively help testing.. Feb 19 11:27:21 x-fade: well, people have helped me Feb 19 11:27:26 And our tester base is large enough.. Feb 19 11:27:33 if the package isn't important, then it can wait longer Feb 19 11:27:39 x-fade: and not everyone can feasibly test everything, which would put constraints on tester numbers, and necessary votes Feb 19 11:27:46 if people want something badly enough, they can volunteer to be testers Feb 19 11:27:56 timeless: And thus frustrates the developer, which causes him to setup his own repo. Feb 19 11:28:03 I've seen that happen ;) Feb 19 11:28:03 but they can't test the thing they want first Feb 19 11:28:09 they'd have to test 3 other things from the queue Feb 19 11:28:10 for updates a simple diff seen by 2 people can tell more than 30' test by 1000 people Feb 19 11:28:11 and not everyone that would volunteer would be competent Feb 19 11:28:31 * timeless nods Feb 19 11:28:34 * timeless is hungry Feb 19 11:28:42 someone have a spare apple? Feb 19 11:28:43 * jaem hands timeless some pizza Feb 19 11:28:45 Me too, starving Feb 19 11:28:56 timeless: I have two, but they looked dead enough when I bought them Feb 19 11:29:02 I shudder to think what they look like now Feb 19 11:29:09 * jaem curses uni food Feb 19 11:29:12 I am going to get some lunch, I hope to write something down to make this discussion concrete. Feb 19 11:29:15 It is a fine line to walk between easy uploading and making things too hard. Feb 19 11:29:30 (Not about my lunch but about the repos. :) ) Feb 19 11:29:52 you're not going to blog about your lunch? :( Feb 19 11:29:55 jeremiah: and why your blog posts don't appear in maemo.org Feb 19 11:30:10 he probably didn't file a bug asking to join pmo Feb 19 11:30:24 qgil: I will check. He is there.. Feb 19 11:30:25 X-Fade: did you fix the council posts in p.m.o appearing bug? Feb 19 11:30:26 I had one idea for application manager promoting system Feb 19 11:30:27 i just saw jeremiah's post in pmo Feb 19 11:30:28 http://s47.radikal.ru/i117/0902/b7/d2db60189e7a.jpg Feb 19 11:30:28 Could be related Feb 19 11:30:40 Jaffa: You didn't look at the scrollback ;) Feb 19 11:30:50 qgil: Well, the first one did - not sure about the others . .. Feb 19 11:31:00 Stskeeps: Oh good. Feb 19 11:31:01 It s there. Feb 19 11:31:03 I found the security one thanks to google :) Feb 19 11:31:10 X-Fade: ah yes, ta Feb 19 11:31:11 It may be PEBKAC Feb 19 11:31:15 4th item on planet. Feb 19 11:32:06 jeremiah: And I think you need to write about maemo.org Security team not Maemo security team. Feb 19 11:32:08 the more rated app is - the more intensive background it has Feb 19 11:32:10 is there any api call to hide the virtual keyboard? I can't seem to find one... Feb 19 11:32:13 Although they can work together.. Feb 19 11:32:33 X-Fade: Right, will try to be clearer. Feb 19 11:32:50 saber: what are you trying to do and why? Feb 19 11:33:05 jeremiah: Maemo and maemo.org are different things and even Nokia people are confused some time ;) Feb 19 11:33:10 *sometimes Feb 19 11:33:50 timeless: hide the keyboard, because it is not needed at a certain point in my application, and it takes up space Feb 19 11:35:37 saber: the keyboard in theory should go away if it doesn't think focus is on an input area Feb 19 11:35:49 however, the decision to have the keyboard should be up to the user Feb 19 11:35:57 if the user wants the space, there's a minimize button in the vkb Feb 19 11:36:35 whatever) Feb 19 11:37:02 timeless: I guess the hiding is not yet implemented in Qt yet... Feb 19 11:38:53 well, goodnight, everyone Feb 19 11:40:32 wow, rene doesn't seem to like the 770 Feb 19 11:40:42 timeless: fud! Feb 19 11:41:24 sp3000: agreed. Feb 19 11:41:26 * timeless leaves Feb 19 11:41:42 graaagggh: hackaday stole my idea ;) Feb 19 11:41:58 http://hackaday.com/2009/02/17/hackit-hackable-bluetooth-bracelet/ Feb 19 11:47:41 jaem_afk: did your Fn work, btw? Feb 19 11:47:52 sts: >_< forgot to check Feb 19 11:48:00 I will, and then I'm *actually* going to bed Feb 19 11:48:06 it's almost 4am here Feb 19 11:48:24 hehe, okay Feb 19 11:48:48 I'm kind of annoyed at the hackaday article Feb 19 11:48:52 oh well, the war is on now Feb 19 11:49:15 and judging by DealExtreme's tardiness at shipping, I should have a bit of a headstart Feb 19 11:49:36 They haven't actually done anything with it yet though, you'll probably beat them to it :) Feb 19 11:49:42 I hope so... Feb 19 11:50:13 last time I ordered from DX, it was backordered for > 1 month Feb 19 11:50:16 so I'm hopeful Feb 19 11:50:31 my order got shipped in about a week Feb 19 11:50:39 well, my shipping was fast Feb 19 11:50:44 but the waiting wasn't Feb 19 11:50:45 * glass should be receiving some usb-sata dongles shortly Feb 19 11:51:06 it took a week for them to get the stuff from their sub-supplier or something Feb 19 11:51:16 hmm... not shipped yet Feb 19 11:51:18 darn it! Feb 19 11:52:14 sts: Fn works marvellously Feb 19 11:52:21 good Feb 19 11:52:37 %11111000 Feb 19 11:52:44 (that was a high-five bitmask, btw) Feb 19 11:52:49 ;) Feb 19 11:53:48 jaem_afk: that was so lame even the woz facepalmed :P Feb 19 11:54:03 hey... I couldn't think of an emoticon Feb 19 11:54:06 I was being creative Feb 19 11:54:16 ...and I'm in Comp Eng, so what do you expect? Feb 19 11:59:44 under "other features" on the BT bracelet page: "Can be used just as a bracelet" Feb 19 11:59:46 uhuh Feb 19 11:59:51 no kidding Feb 19 12:00:25 * qwerty12 imagines someone presenting it in a box to their girl: "Oh, you shouldn't have!"... "Oh." Feb 19 12:00:37 heck - if I was a girl, I'd be happy Feb 19 12:00:46 but then again, I'm not, so that probably skews things Feb 19 12:01:24 hehe Feb 19 12:01:59 hmmm... apparently we live several decades earlier than we actually do Feb 19 12:02:13 because this website claims that a QVGA camera is "high resolution" Feb 19 12:03:04 "this device is perfect for dentists"..."Note: This device is not intended for medical use. " Feb 19 12:03:05 lol Feb 19 12:03:05 * smellycat has never seen a higher resolution bracelet camera :D Feb 19 12:03:24 no - I'm talking about the electric toothbrush with a camera instead of bristles Feb 19 12:03:31 o rly? Feb 19 12:03:37 http://www.chinavasion.com/product_info.php/pName/dental-intraoral-camera-computer-usb-connection/ Feb 19 12:03:41 what a cool device Feb 19 12:03:54 o_O Feb 19 12:04:06 i wonder if theres porno made with it Feb 19 12:04:15 * smellycat imagines the places one could use that Feb 19 12:04:16 * jaem_afk does not want to know Feb 19 12:04:46 you can broadcast your visits to the dentist Feb 19 12:05:04 it could be the new Youtube phenomenon Feb 19 12:05:05 glass, looking at the title by any chance? Feb 19 12:05:15 day 1: the Root Canal Feb 19 12:05:26 either that, or a new reality show Feb 19 12:05:57 the only thing wrong is the direction its at, you cannot get any ummm trains into the tunnel shots Feb 19 12:06:15 on a sad note, it looks like the bracelet may only display numbers :( Feb 19 12:06:24 qwerty12: i think i saw the same thing for sale at dx Feb 19 12:06:37 glass: *everything* is for sale at DX Feb 19 12:07:05 including bunnies, if you're looking for the plastic/led variety, with flash memory and a bottle opener built in Feb 19 12:07:18 :D Feb 19 12:17:26 bman_: got a laptop or something? :P Feb 19 12:18:26 yeah why Feb 19 12:19:35 not the normal way you enter :) Feb 19 12:19:41 weee, I have a new entrance door :) Feb 19 12:19:49 woo Feb 19 12:19:58 what happened to the old one? something vodka-related? :P Feb 19 12:20:07 Now I can stand a tank shot :) Feb 19 12:20:38 Nope, it's just became old :) I'm having renovation in my flat Feb 19 12:20:46 hehe Feb 19 12:21:29 The bad thing is that I had auto-lock on the old one, and new doesn't have it Feb 19 12:21:43 got 2 laptops and a n800ahh Feb 19 12:21:51 didnt read Feb 19 12:21:53 heh Feb 19 12:21:54 how goes it Feb 19 12:22:05 It's not so handy, but now I can't get out without keys :) Feb 19 12:22:20 bman_: fine, and just to check, you're the b-man who frequent here? :P Feb 19 12:22:56 yeppers Feb 19 12:23:22 probably easier to type than on an on-screen kbd :P Feb 19 12:25:39 can one easily change touchscreen in n800? Feb 19 12:25:56 is it cheap part? Feb 19 12:27:55 Stskeeps: http://s45.radikal.ru/i108/0902/7d/2c12e5d1761e.jpg <- my next post :) Feb 19 12:29:21 wazd: hah :P Feb 19 12:29:28 TV interfaces? :P Feb 19 12:29:46 Stskeeps: large screens interfaces) Feb 19 12:30:14 hahlo: changing the screen in a n810 is gonna cost me ~150 EUR Feb 19 12:30:17 which is not cheap Feb 19 12:30:30 isnt it almost cheaper to buy a new one? :P Feb 19 12:30:40 wazd: awesome Feb 19 12:30:52 Stskeeps: I did both :-) Feb 19 12:30:53 quite a lot Feb 19 12:30:59 it's faster to get a new one Feb 19 12:31:06 I gave my n810 to the local service last october Feb 19 12:31:10 I haven't heard from them yet Feb 19 12:31:17 except for a phone call last november confirming the cost Feb 19 12:31:23 maybe they fixed it and forgot to call me? Feb 19 12:31:44 mgedmin: I admire your patience ;) Feb 19 12:32:01 what patience? I ordered a new n810 the same day I cracked my old one's screen Feb 19 12:32:02 they fixed it and fund a good use for it Feb 19 12:32:04 it arrived in two days Feb 19 12:32:08 I suffered a lot Feb 19 12:32:11 s/fund/found Feb 19 12:32:13 during those two days Feb 19 12:32:22 well, a little ;) Feb 19 12:32:33 mgedmin: But you didn't even ping them for status updates? Feb 19 12:32:43 nope, I have a working n810, so I don't care Feb 19 12:32:51 I should ping them when I go back home Feb 19 12:32:56 * mgedmin on a trip to Sweden right now Feb 19 12:33:25 I should've accepted the kind offer of some guy with a @nokia.com email who offered to send me his broken n810 with a working screen Feb 19 12:33:38 but I wanted to see what dealing with nokia's authorized service was like in Lithuania Feb 19 12:33:56 probably as bad as everywhere else Feb 19 12:33:57 also, I'm not a screwdriver-using person Feb 19 12:34:06 I sort of know which end to hold Feb 19 12:34:17 'sharp end towards enemy' ;) Feb 19 12:34:53 * lardman thinks bt bracelet is good idea - smart house, etc Feb 19 12:35:33 * mgedmin is afraid of stupid houses Feb 19 12:35:48 I mean, anyone who works with software knows enough not to trust it Feb 19 12:36:44 well, then i'm afraid of smart houses too Feb 19 12:38:12 http://www.engadget.com/2009/02/19/access-linux-platform-3-0-live-in-person-and-oh-so-full-of-wid/ Feb 19 12:38:54 omg! Look! They are transparent! Feb 19 12:39:16 And I can move them around! It's superawesome! Feb 19 12:39:51 wazd: whi are these guys? Feb 19 12:40:22 access linux.. another linux mobile stack Feb 19 12:40:26 afaik Feb 19 12:40:41 YALMS =) Feb 19 12:40:44 RST38h: Yet another linux mobile platform) Feb 19 12:40:51 RST38h: lol) Feb 19 12:41:21 Oh well... Feb 19 12:41:56 This lady is pretty excited with transparency) Feb 19 12:42:01 Don't show this video to lcuk, he may get new ideas from it! =) Feb 19 12:42:34 * Stskeeps orders a mmcmobile card Feb 19 12:43:14 * RST38h screwed up some constructor and can't run the code now Feb 19 12:46:09 wazd: females and eye candy?... Feb 19 12:47:22 RST38h: http://theparks.livejournal.com/11904.html Feb 19 12:47:32 RST38h: Vodka - poison! Feb 19 12:47:35 t_s_o: transparency and females Feb 19 12:47:55 aquatix: for their enjoyment or ours? ;) Feb 19 12:48:17 lardman: reading "coolest gadgets"? Feb 19 12:48:18 wazd: with mer we just need XKCD applet going and we have 95% of the geek population.. Feb 19 12:48:50 Stskeeps: it's in python, shouldn't be hard :) Feb 19 12:49:16 wazd: There are worse, much worse things... Feb 19 12:49:52 wazd: http://talar.sitecity.ru/album_0710045239.phtml (investigate carefully, danger of permanent braindamage) Feb 19 12:49:59 hmm, been kinda quiet around tear lately... Feb 19 12:51:17 RST38h: that background was bad enough. tie dye to the nth... Feb 19 12:51:17 t_s_o: preferably both ;) Feb 19 12:51:59 t_s_o: madmen absolutley LOVE that Feb 19 12:52:22 heh, and addicts, maybe... Feb 19 13:05:21 anyone using pluthon on winxp? Feb 19 13:06:26 (linux) Feb 19 13:07:42 work ok on Linux? Feb 19 13:08:12 yes.. Feb 19 13:09:10 have you installed copssh? Feb 19 13:09:54 I'm wondering A) can I use existing ssh keys (putty) and B) can wifi be used in place of usb networking? Yep, I have just installed copssh. Feb 19 13:10:01 B ) Feb 19 13:10:43 matmo: so where is the problem? Feb 19 13:11:22 I have just finished installing everything and don't want to fuk it all up :-) Feb 19 13:11:34 have you set up the */copssh/bin folder as a path in windows's settings? Feb 19 13:11:54 * as explained in the how-to? Feb 19 13:12:00 yep Feb 19 13:12:09 hmm... Feb 19 13:12:32 It should work :| Feb 19 13:13:22 Have pc-connectivity on tablet, bugzilla says usb-net prob won't work and I don't see why I need to create ssh keys when I have some for putty Feb 19 13:14:47 iirc, putty keys use a different format, and you'll have to use wifi as RNDIS support is broken in the 2.6.21 kernel Feb 19 13:15:09 ok Feb 19 13:16:54 there are tools to convert key formats Feb 19 13:17:02 iirc they're described in the putty docs Feb 19 13:30:52 hmm Feb 19 13:30:57 i just compiled cx3110x 1.2 for 770 Feb 19 13:35:59 well that is much more stable scanning, hmm Feb 19 13:38:48 OK, so, cx3110x, which is newest, 0.8.5 or 1.2, because timestamps on garage is 0.8.5 before 1.2 .. Feb 19 13:39:07 * GeneralAntilles shudders at the thought of encouraging .deb-only distribution. Feb 19 13:39:35 GeneralAntilles: Blob heaven ;) Feb 19 13:41:08 Now that we have jeremiah, it shouldn't really be an option. .deb only is for people who don't know how to use dh_make and use pypackager Feb 19 13:43:43 BTW, do we have a naming convention for packages? i.e. app-1.1-maemo-1 Feb 19 13:43:58 Must check the docs about that .. . Feb 19 13:44:12 jeremiah: We follow debian numbering. Feb 19 13:44:22 jeremiah: And your example: FAIL :) Feb 19 13:44:34 X-Fade: :P Feb 19 13:45:38 jeremiah: http://maemo.org/forrest-images/pdf/maemo-policy.pdf Feb 19 13:45:57 I think you will find all info you need in that policy. Feb 19 13:46:32 It is the Debian packaging policy + some Maemo related changes. Feb 19 13:47:24 X-Fade: Thanks! Feb 19 13:47:50 jeremiah: That will keep you busy for a while ;) Feb 19 13:50:18 X-Fade: you really are loading jeremiah every chance you get :-) Feb 19 13:50:49 tekojo: Comes with the job ;) Feb 19 13:50:58 timeless: thanks, looks easier just to create new keys Feb 19 13:51:37 pluthon user guide, create keys, ssh2 home: should this directory already exist? Feb 19 13:51:41 * GeneralAntilles sighs at the ever decreasing number of PPC applications. Feb 19 13:52:29 Time to embrace Intel, eh? :p Feb 19 13:52:40 If only I had the cash. Feb 19 13:53:30 orig mac mini = headless file server Feb 19 13:54:12 General: Just buy a Mac Mini Feb 19 13:54:40 RST38h, as my primary machine? Feb 19 13:54:55 Well, worth trying Feb 19 13:54:57 I'm not spending $800 to downgrade my hardware. Feb 19 13:55:09 * RST38h thought Minis went for $500 Feb 19 13:55:21 The mini has Core 2 duo and you can get them with 2 gigs RAM Feb 19 13:55:38 Linux runs about 30% faster on it that native OS X Feb 19 13:55:39 This would probably be faster than your PPC =) Feb 19 13:55:40 jeremiah, and I've got 6GB in my dual-2.5GHz G5. ;) Feb 19 13:55:48 RST38h, or not. Feb 19 13:55:55 As I said, worth trying Feb 19 13:56:03 GeneralAntilles: Yeah, that's the thing, you can't get over 2 gigs on the mini Feb 19 13:56:12 GeneralAntilles: So kind of rules that out. Feb 19 13:56:13 <||cw> isn't a 1.5Ghz core2 faster than a 2.5Ghz G5? Feb 19 13:56:14 I can't get away with a tiny video card like that anyway. Feb 19 13:56:20 ||cw, ha! Feb 19 13:56:31 HOLY WAR TIME! Feb 19 13:56:38 * Jaffa got rid of his original Mini a while ago and realised since I only ever ran OSS apps (primarily, Gimp, Inkscape, Firefox and an SSH client) I could do that on a nice commodity self-built Linux box, no matter how nice the Apple hardware & OS is. Feb 19 13:56:49 <||cw> nothing about holy war, you can't compare clock Feb 19 13:57:11 Under certain conditions (not met by PPC vs Intel) you can Feb 19 13:57:29 ppc uberism was just apple pr shit Feb 19 13:57:35 The mini is so quiet though, that is what makes it so nice. Feb 19 13:58:02 It is a pretty crippled machine though and you pay the Apple tax for a proprietary system Feb 19 13:58:08 jeremiah, I've slept in close proximity to a G5 for many years. Feb 19 13:58:13 Quiet isn't important. Feb 19 13:58:28 Is sleeping in close proximity to it important? =) Feb 19 13:58:29 Well, then I cannot make a case for the mini. :P Feb 19 13:58:37 I'm pulling for a radiator leak resulting in a free Mac Pro upgrade, personally. Feb 19 13:58:47 RST38h, I don't have a large apartment. Feb 19 13:59:02 General: I did mean it in a different sense =) Feb 19 13:59:17 GeneralAntilles: long cabling ftw Feb 19 13:59:32 But if you are tight on budget, that basically leaves Mini or some small self-built box Feb 19 13:59:33 C:\Documents and Settings\pluthon\.ssh - replace "pluthon" by account name for copSSH? Should .ssh already exist? Feb 19 13:59:38 <=$600 Feb 19 13:59:57 small atom self builts should be pretty much under 600 Feb 19 14:00:06 you can get a laptop for 600 Feb 19 14:00:09 Atom is too slow Feb 19 14:00:17 glass, seriously, G5 -> Atom? Feb 19 14:00:19 I mean, really. Feb 19 14:00:20 Not usable for serious work - I checked =( Feb 19 14:00:22 GeneralAntilles: mini Feb 19 14:00:34 <||cw> atom is too slow Feb 19 14:00:45 <||cw> it's fine for web browsing and stuff Feb 19 14:01:18 I'm not paying money to downgrade my primary machine. Feb 19 14:01:33 Then sooner or later it will become obsolete Feb 19 14:01:46 everything will Feb 19 14:02:08 RST38h, eventually I'll have money to upgrade to a better machine. Feb 19 14:02:18 is there arm laptops? Feb 19 14:02:20 glass: well, a pc will of course become "slower" with time, but it won't become totally obsolete Feb 19 14:02:26 eventually better machines will be free too Feb 19 14:02:44 RST38h: i view it as obsolote as in value if similar machines can be bonked for free Feb 19 14:02:46 General: You can no longer upgrade to a better PPC box =( Feb 19 14:03:15 anyone? Does pluthon setup need a "pluthon" user for copSSH or what? Feb 19 14:03:22 glass: In poor general's case, the whole architecture is becoming obsolete (sadly, because PPC was a good CPU) Feb 19 14:03:23 RST38h, well, you could, but it'd require handing quite a bit of money over to IBM. Feb 19 14:03:34 RST38h: i don't see much good about g5, seriously Feb 19 14:03:40 * RST38h checks if IBM is still producing RS-series Feb 19 14:03:48 glass: lotsa registers Feb 19 14:03:54 friggin noisy, not good buck per dollar Feb 19 14:04:03 punch Feb 19 14:04:42 General: Yesss, you CAN upgrade: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PSeries Feb 19 14:04:46 (in a sense) Feb 19 14:05:12 GeneralAntilles: Butcher an xbox360 into running OSX? Decent graphics and a tri-core, later generation CPU... ;-) Feb 19 14:05:31 ccooke, sadly not enough RAM. Feb 19 14:05:54 X-Fade: Does lintian get run at any point over incoming packages? Feb 19 14:06:04 <||cw> matmo: I think you'd need to ask the copSSH people Feb 19 14:06:30 jeremiah, we need a Maemo-specific version first, I think. Feb 19 14:06:55 jeremiah: GA is right. Feb 19 14:06:57 http://www-03.ibm.com/systems/intellistation/index.html <== you can chat to them in real time, asking abut the price :) Feb 19 14:07:02 ccooke: it would be crap.. but running osx on it would be an accomplishment Feb 19 14:07:12 GeneralAntilles: Can we start using it and strip stuff / add stuff as needed? Feb 19 14:07:14 jeremiah: Nokia has a modified lintian internally, we would need to get that one first. Feb 19 14:07:29 X-Fade: Yeah, the internal lintian would be great. Feb 19 14:07:52 Can we file a bug? Feb 19 14:07:52 ||cw: maybe, but this is a setting in eclipse and instructions in the pluthon help section Feb 19 14:08:03 I work with linitian current maintainer in debian, Russ Aberry, so he would be interested in our use of it I think. Feb 19 14:08:08 GeneralAntilles: I will do that now. Feb 19 14:08:09 GeneralAntilles: Hmm. lintian's not too hard to modify. Is there some understanding on what needs to change? Feb 19 14:08:31 ccooke: Not too much, just some maemo specific rules like our own Sections etc.. Feb 19 14:08:50 ccooke, so it checks for and respects the stuff outlined in the Maemo Packaging Policy. Feb 19 14:08:59 GeneralAntilles: Ah ha. Feb 19 14:09:20 lintian is written in perl Feb 19 14:09:24 X-Fade, the title for maemo.org is going to have to change. Feb 19 14:11:12 GeneralAntilles: Can be added to the new style? Feb 19 14:11:34 X-Fade, yeah, I was looking at newstyle which is what reminded me. Feb 19 14:11:58 It's not just the development platform and it's arguably no longer just for internet tablets. Feb 19 14:12:10 GeneralAntilles: When I file a bug, which section should it go in? Maemo.org website, since it is a repository tool? Feb 19 14:12:26 First, maemo.org is never capitalized. :P Feb 19 14:12:30 Second, good question. :P Feb 19 14:12:43 If not a bug, we could always poke -developers. Feb 19 14:12:46 Third, Okay. :) Feb 19 14:12:52 Quim or somebody can figure it out I'm sure. Feb 19 14:12:59 El Quim! Feb 19 14:13:16 Email to -developers it is then. :) Feb 19 14:13:27 * GeneralAntilles had a dream about the community manager discussion last night. . . . Feb 19 14:13:44 Don't you have irc already? Feb 19 14:15:04 in your dreams? Feb 19 14:15:05 :P Feb 19 14:15:23 That'll come when we get neural implants. Feb 19 14:15:37 GeneralAntilles: brain meltdown when accessing iTT .. Feb 19 14:15:38 :P Feb 19 14:16:38 * GeneralAntilles shakes his head at ThoughFix's readership. Feb 19 14:18:18 Well, ThoughtFix isn't married to the tablet, he has rights to wonder =) Feb 19 14:18:19 scary Feb 19 14:18:25 i might actually have a sane wifi driver for my 770 now Feb 19 14:18:34 However naively Feb 19 14:20:44 Wow, WinXP boots/ Feb 19 14:21:36 on tablets? ;> Feb 19 14:23:06 does xp boot on tablet? Feb 19 14:24:31 Wow, WinXP boots at all? Feb 19 14:25:40 good porting to boot xp on tablet Feb 19 14:27:27 https://code.launchpad.net/~mer-committers/m-r/cx3110x-770 <- cx3110x 1.2 for 770 Feb 19 14:31:56 hmm, bluetooth over wifi radio... Feb 19 14:33:59 heh, seems like the wireless equivalent of running usb over ethernet... Feb 19 14:35:38 r2d2rogers: ping Feb 19 14:38:46 ugh, it seems that most only see bluetooth as a slow file transfer system, and one that can be replaced by wifi using ftp/http/whatever other file transfer related protocols are out there... Feb 19 14:39:41 still, i find it odd that they need to piggy back on wifi to speed up... Feb 19 14:40:10 did you try bluetooth recently? :P Feb 19 14:40:35 Stskeeps: 2.x + edr your hinting at? Feb 19 14:41:50 i just wonder what wifi is doing differently to bluetooth to have the speed difference that it has. they are both working in the same frequency band, after all... Feb 19 14:42:41 t_s_o: using much more electricity Feb 19 14:43:17 suihkulokki: sounds to simple, as that makes me ask why they cant just pump more into the existing bluetooth radio as needed... Feb 19 14:45:13 well, bluetooth 3 will have a lot more bandwidth Feb 19 14:45:28 but the bluetooth radio and chips are a lot more simple than wifi Feb 19 14:46:23 so its one of those "devil in details" topics... Feb 19 14:46:56 funny how they can be simpler, yet have all these profiles defined... Feb 19 14:47:25 Well, profiles are on a higher level than the RF. ;) Feb 19 14:47:34 heh, true Feb 19 14:47:39 and i got to say, i love them Feb 19 14:48:02 just wish maemo had a storage browsing profile going Feb 19 14:48:09 I just wish devices were consistent about implementing them. Feb 19 14:48:37 Half the devices you use that are advertised as supporting certain profiles wont do so without crashing or sending junk data. Feb 19 14:49:06 t_s_o: Afaik WiFi uses spread-spectrum, BT uses frequency hopping Feb 19 14:49:16 But Wikipedia will surely have more complete and uptodate info Feb 19 14:49:28 heh, indeed. almost to much ;) Feb 19 14:49:55 WiFi links do use wider spectrum chunks, so they can pump more data there Feb 19 14:51:34 GeneralAntilles: with devices, are you saying "phones"? i can see how that can happen if one run into phones with operator supplied firmwares, where they try to stop the user from accessing specific bluetooth features... Feb 19 14:55:53 Nah, it's not operator meddling, it's mostly just shitty software QA. ;) Feb 19 14:56:24 Well, not that operators don't meddle, but when they do it just means that the profile is removed. Feb 19 14:56:30 Not that it sort of half works. Feb 19 15:02:35 well they could end up messing up one when trying to kill the other, one never knows... Feb 19 15:03:42 still, i cant say i have had any issues mixing bluetooth devices so far. but then i have not sat down and looked at the actual packets being transmitted... Feb 19 15:07:39 hm Feb 19 15:07:54 guess that "8 days" of battery life doesn't apply when GPS is left on :/ Feb 19 15:08:15 No, really? Feb 19 15:08:33 even standalone gps loggers don't last 8 days Feb 19 15:08:45 well, it's only receiving.. : Feb 19 15:08:46 :p Feb 19 15:08:57 oh well Feb 19 15:09:23 so why is there no kismet port/ Feb 19 15:09:25 ? Feb 19 15:09:45 www.google.com Feb 19 15:22:03 Meizirkki: hal should be autodetecting Fn now Feb 19 15:27:39 Nokia signs 500 million loan for Symbian R&D Feb 19 15:27:57 I can be hired for much lower price :P Feb 19 15:28:56 Yes, but can you be made to do Symbian R&D? =) Feb 19 15:28:57 go work at some firm they buy r&d then from Feb 19 15:29:40 glass: Let us just create a new firm Feb 19 15:30:26 Well, I think I can do R&D in UI sphere :) Feb 19 15:30:44 glass: RUR/USD exchange rate is real good for that right now, and we can always expect Quim to bring some work =) Feb 19 15:30:44 And industrial design Feb 19 15:31:08 wazd: Symbian hasn't done any UI R&D for...mm...years? =) Feb 19 15:31:25 RST38h: centuries xD Feb 19 15:32:26 cmon UPS Feb 19 15:33:00 RST38h: hehe Feb 19 15:33:09 i have like 4 pkgs showing up today Feb 19 15:33:18 i'm excited.. it's like waiting on santa claus Feb 19 15:34:29 Ahhahahaha: http://cache.gawker.com/assets/images/gizmodo/2009/02/solarbatteries.jpg Feb 19 15:35:57 nice) Feb 19 15:44:22 heh Feb 19 15:44:42 do those actually work? Feb 19 15:44:51 seems like an interesting concept Feb 19 15:45:58 I do not think they will work well Feb 19 15:45:59 Stskeeps, great. i can't test it right now, my tablet is being repaired. :( Feb 19 15:46:09 Not enough area to charge the battery Feb 19 15:46:51 ...It seems that in this case a "long-duration" blast is one lasting three seconds or so. However, company energy-cannon chief Dan Wildt said the laser could easily have kept blazing for longer, but this would have destroyed or melted the ground test equipment... Feb 19 15:47:22 RST38h: don't think so? Feb 19 15:48:03 anyways.. let me go wait for UPS Feb 19 15:51:34 Hmm. That libogg build failed. I will try to look at that when I get home. Feb 19 15:51:45 libvorbis too. Feb 19 15:52:38 jeremiah: Didn't fail. Was rejected. Feb 19 15:52:52 jeremiah: As the same version was already in the repo. Feb 19 15:53:07 You have to say it in the UT announcer's voice, though. Feb 19 15:53:12 "RE-JECTED!" Feb 19 15:53:30 Ah. My bad. Feb 19 15:53:31 Nice buzzer.... Feb 19 15:54:00 Me read good one day. Feb 19 15:54:19 Does the web interface warn you if the version needs bumping? Feb 19 15:54:30 GeneralAntilles: You get a mail. Feb 19 15:55:03 Which says: [2009-02-19 17:50:07] REJECTED: The same or newer version (libvorbis 1.2.0.dfsg-3.1maemo0) is already in extras-devel Feb 19 15:55:28 Any way to catch that in the web interface? Feb 19 15:55:41 omg, ipod touch is a good evoluton for n800... I need some vodka... Feb 19 15:55:53 Probably. If you grep the Packages file. Feb 19 15:57:21 wazd, tabletblog readers. Feb 19 15:57:23 I don't get them. Feb 19 15:57:32 http://www.engadget.com/2009/02/19/stantums-mind-blowing-multitouch-interface-on-video/ Feb 19 15:57:40 oh, thats nice) Feb 19 15:57:53 resisted multitouch) Feb 19 15:57:58 resistive Feb 19 16:00:04 any way to get the GPS to auto-turn off if there's been no movement within 5 seconds? Feb 19 16:00:17 and reenable when the accelerometer detects movement? Feb 19 16:00:28 accelerometer? The N810 doesn't have one. Feb 19 16:01:09 lol. . . . Feb 19 16:01:58 wazd: i like this one too: http://www.engadget.com/2009/02/17/panasonics-103-inch-plasma-repurposed-as-multitouch-air-hockey/ Feb 19 16:02:24 I never understood using an accelerometer to activate GPS Feb 19 16:02:40 So, when you move it from one side of your desk to the other, you should get a new GPS fix? Feb 19 16:03:03 GeneralAntilles: You can wave all you want with your device and it would probably not change your GPS position anyway. Feb 19 16:03:10 Your arm is not long enough ;) Feb 19 16:03:20 X-Fade, especially not with the N810's GPS chip. ;) Feb 19 16:03:30 It's said that this thing is software based Feb 19 16:03:35 Especially with any end user GPS. Feb 19 16:03:36 GeneralAntilles, well if it's really accurate you could just do dead reckoning :) Feb 19 16:03:45 I don't beleive) Feb 19 16:03:55 GeneralAntilles: but if you *don't* move it, the GPS is unnecessary power consumption Feb 19 16:04:17 johnx, I want a tablet that can figure my position based on vector information from the accelerometer from the previous GPS fix. Feb 19 16:04:19 if you're just leaving it sitting on your desk, why not plug it into power? Feb 19 16:04:31 GeneralAntilles, hence 'dead reckoning' Feb 19 16:04:32 luke-jr: When you sit in a car the accelerometer won't detect your movement. Feb 19 16:04:46 johnx: plugged in, it will charge faster ;) Feb 19 16:04:47 luke-jr: Unless you accelerate or brake. Feb 19 16:05:01 X-Fade: that's why the GPS only turns off if you stop moving Feb 19 16:05:20 johnx, the actually technical implementation of that: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inertial_navigation_system Feb 19 16:05:55 luke-jr, accelerometers don't detect movement they detect acceleration. If you're driving in a straight line at a constant speed the accelerometer will read the same as if you sit it on a desk Feb 19 16:06:01 s/actually/actual/ Feb 19 16:06:01 GeneralAntilles meant: johnx, the actual technical implementation of that: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inertial_navigation_system Feb 19 16:06:10 johnx: that's why the GPS only turns off if you stop moving Feb 19 16:06:47 GeneralAntilles: anyhow, the repo someone linked for kismet is closed at maemo's request Feb 19 16:06:53 and kismet isn't in Extras… Feb 19 16:07:02 luke-jr, you could probably do this with dbus-scripts Feb 19 16:07:06 Oh god, not this BS again. Feb 19 16:09:39 why is the internal flash card mmc1 if there's no external, and mmc2 if there is? :/ Feb 19 16:11:34 if you can repeat that behavior it's a bug and you should write a bug report Feb 19 16:11:36 it's not normal Feb 19 16:11:57 O.o Feb 19 16:12:00 what is normal then? Feb 19 16:12:12 mmc1 = external, mmc2 = internal Feb 19 16:13:09 so mmc1 should be unmounted if no external present? Feb 19 16:13:45 that's right Feb 19 16:15:25 is it normal for mmcblk1 to be my external? Feb 19 16:15:51 yes Feb 19 16:16:12 external is /dev/mmcblk1, internal is /dev/mmcblk0 Feb 19 16:16:39 E: Package e2fsprogs has no installation candidate Feb 19 16:16:41 sigh Feb 19 16:17:26 apt-cache policy e2fsprogs Feb 19 16:18:50 unfortunately, removing the external microSD/miniSD seems impractical without risking breaking it Feb 19 16:19:07 uhm, what? Feb 19 16:19:33 e2fsprogs: Installed: (none) Candidate: (none) Version table: Feb 19 16:19:44 johnx: it was difficult to put in, and even more difficult to remove Feb 19 16:19:59 it's not going to break though Feb 19 16:20:25 but yeah, microsd -> sd/minisd adapters are a pain Feb 19 16:20:51 I don't remember what repo e2fsprogs is in. it's either extras, extras-devel or tools Feb 19 16:21:22 jeremiah, which address in bugzilla to keep? @maemo.org? Feb 19 16:24:25 http://www.google.com/search?ie=utf8&oe=utf8&q=site:repository.maemo.org+e2fsprogs Feb 19 16:24:28 Extras-devel Feb 19 16:35:19 X-Fade: Proposed a Karma for Applications calculation Feb 19 16:35:25 Imperfect, but existing :) Feb 19 16:37:20 dneary: Yeah, reading it. Feb 19 16:37:39 I think the idea of karma for apps would be to show the hot apps of the moment. Feb 19 16:37:50 Just like faving does for the news page. Feb 19 16:41:19 http://www.stantum.com <- interesting site indeed) Feb 19 16:42:29 i cant help but wonder if karel have gremlins or something... Feb 19 16:43:10 it would certainly explain a lot... Feb 19 16:43:16 Nah, just a constant hard-on over the pandora Feb 19 16:43:44 oh that'll be fun :> Feb 19 16:49:08 tech gives me many things, but hard-on? only indirectly ;) Feb 19 16:54:28 how fast are packages, which were builded into extras, available on the device? Feb 19 16:58:04 wazd: http://www.stantum.com/video/stylus320.html Feb 19 16:58:26 help Feb 19 16:59:13 i did something and now image-viewer rotates image per 90 in fullscreen mode Feb 19 16:59:20 * wazd likes to have fun with thoughtfix users :) Feb 19 16:59:42 slonopotamus, what is it supposed to rotate by? Feb 19 17:02:02 thopiekar: yep, saw that, that's really resistive multitouch) Feb 19 17:02:46 crap Feb 19 17:03:15 then I think rotating by 90degrees is an improvement :) Feb 19 17:03:17 do not ever try to rotate 2636 x 3347 image in maemo viewer Feb 19 17:03:29 X-Fade ? Feb 19 17:04:05 johnx, this damn thing first hang and then rebooted. Feb 19 17:04:15 I really dream bout some kind of pocket device to manage raw photos on the go Feb 19 17:04:25 slonopotamus, probably went OOM Feb 19 17:04:26 * qwerty12 prefers quiver, shame that it's closed but doesn't deter it from being good in any way Feb 19 17:04:50 queerver xD Feb 19 17:04:50 johnx,probably. why not just kill something? Feb 19 17:05:23 maybe it went too long without kicking the watchdog before it the OOM killer was triggered Feb 19 17:05:37 how fast are packages, which were builded into extras with maemo extras assistant, available in the repo?.. Feb 19 17:06:10 crap. some miserable 200k png kills device with 128mb ram. Feb 19 17:06:25 it's not 200k in memory :) Feb 19 17:06:40 well Feb 19 17:07:01 but yeah: don't use Nokia's image viewer Feb 19 17:07:03 if it managed to load it, why it needs more memory to rotate? Feb 19 17:07:18 do not tell me they create second buffer Feb 19 17:07:24 heh Feb 19 17:07:32 ok, I won't tell you that Feb 19 17:07:40 they do? Feb 19 17:07:49 * johnx doesn't work for Nokia Feb 19 17:08:07 but seriously, don't waste time on that program Feb 19 17:08:13 johnx, that's why i say 'they' Feb 19 17:08:20 johnx, :P Feb 19 17:09:01 but really. it's hard to read rotated image. Feb 19 17:13:54 turn your device sideways :) Feb 19 17:18:02 could someone please tell my how the folder is called Feb 19 17:18:17 .. in .MyDocs for music? Feb 19 17:18:32 .audio I think Feb 19 17:18:40 sure? Feb 19 17:18:44 no Feb 19 17:19:01 could you please check it out for me? Feb 19 17:19:04 there's ~/MyDocs/.sounds Feb 19 17:19:19 ok thanks you two Feb 19 17:32:44 * Stskeeps takes a look at bundyo's cx3110x-wifi-patch Feb 19 17:32:55 ooooh, what's it do? Feb 19 17:33:31 well it is for 770 and he claims it builds under newer kernels Feb 19 17:34:05 ah, well that's awesome. did you dig up a card for your shiny new tablet yet? :) Feb 19 17:34:13 in the mail monday hopefully Feb 19 17:34:36 qwerty12: roxterm's postinst is buggy http://www.internettablettalk.com/forums/showpost.php?p=265708&postcount=10 Feb 19 17:34:57 qwerty12: but you already read it ;) Feb 19 17:35:23 mikkov_, I saw :/, thank you for pointing it out- will fix (and find a better way of setting the defaults) Feb 19 17:36:12 rzr: did wifi ever work under nitdroid-770? Feb 19 17:37:43 no i had no AP that time Feb 19 17:37:49 and it wasnt working Feb 19 17:37:58 but i've been told it could be supported Feb 19 17:38:09 qwerty12: using a wrapper script to start roxterm is one solution Feb 19 17:39:20 I like that idea, will look into it if I can't find a way to do it directly. Thanks! :) Feb 19 17:43:45 johnx: at least i got cx3110x 1.2 working on the kernel which seems a hell lot saner than 0.8.5 Feb 19 17:43:50 which made "blind" scans constantly Feb 19 17:52:57 what is SoftMAC anyway? it doesn't communicate directly with chip i guess Feb 19 17:54:58 mikkov_, fixed it in the version sent to the builder. Just got to wait now :). Thanks again :) Feb 19 17:59:56 are these paths right? N800: internal mmc: /media/mmc2/ ; external: mmc1 | N810: SD/MMC mmc1? Feb 19 18:00:30 yes Feb 19 18:00:38 are you seeing something different? Feb 19 18:01:08 iirc if you boot without card in the minisd slot, they get swapped around? Feb 19 18:01:26 my N800 is at a repair shop near me.. so I can't look whether its right :) Feb 19 18:01:38 johnx: thanks anyway.. Feb 19 18:03:55 I don't think that's the case... Feb 19 18:04:24 I think mmc1 is always the external one Feb 19 18:04:33 both on n810 and on n800 Feb 19 18:04:46 I only have a n810, and I'm not willing to pull out my external card to test it Feb 19 18:07:48 it appears that some people's tablets have slightly strange behavior in that regard Feb 19 18:07:49 /dev/mmcblk1 is external card in maemo, but wherever else (Mer, Ubuntu, Deblet, Initfs) the external card is always /dev/mmcblk0 Feb 19 18:08:06 for you, maybe Feb 19 18:08:07 it isnt always like that :P there's a whole bug on it Feb 19 18:08:08 :P Feb 19 18:08:13 But mount points under /media are always the same in maemo Feb 19 18:08:19 ok Feb 19 18:08:58 in over a year playing with debian on n800 I never saw my cards 'swapped' Feb 19 18:09:56 * Stskeeps glances over at the 770 Feb 19 18:10:01 i wouldn't mind a black n800. Feb 19 18:10:49 wow Feb 19 18:11:09 google just gave me "Keysicho" captcha :) Feb 19 18:11:23 thats not me! :( Feb 19 18:12:36 hmm, Stantum is a bit like lcuk's multitouc Feb 19 18:12:37 h Feb 19 18:15:47 wb qwerty12_mer Feb 19 18:16:13 hi again :) Feb 19 18:17:01 think i've merized maemo-xkb-plugin successfully... Feb 19 18:17:24 xkb-plugin? the CPA? Feb 19 18:18:01 both, applet & cpa from that garage link you gave me Feb 19 18:18:17 how does one install 'diff'? it conflicts with busybox :/ Feb 19 18:19:09 luke-jr: welcome to hell.maemo.org Feb 19 18:19:16 -.- Feb 19 18:21:17 http://www.internettablettalk.com/forums/showthread.php?p=265719#post265719 Feb 19 18:21:25 Sorry, couldn't stand it :) Feb 19 18:21:35 New Airbus is just so awesome) Feb 19 18:23:00 screenshots? Feb 19 18:23:25 http://www.airbus.com/store/mm_repository/cockpit_airbusA380/flash/cockpit1.htm Feb 19 18:23:47 luke-jr, that's part of the inspiration for mer Feb 19 18:24:26 Stskeeps: I think we should port Mer to Airbus xD Feb 19 18:24:28 wazd, you're a bad person. :P Feb 19 18:24:30 -.- Feb 19 18:24:36 johnx: is it solvable? Feb 19 18:25:12 luke-jr, in mer: yes, we use coreutils Feb 19 18:25:13 GeneralAntilles: That's me :P Feb 19 18:25:14 short of installing Gentoo, I mean? Feb 19 18:25:38 GeneralAntilles: those iPod users on thoughtfix's blog are really fun) Feb 19 18:27:57 blagh. Stskeeps I found you the thread that *used* to pictures of a black N800...but it's just broken links now :/ Feb 19 18:28:09 GeneralAntilles: they are like "For handwrittin notes I carry old fashioned tree-based options" :) Feb 19 18:28:20 timeless, ping? Feb 19 18:28:27 am I actually required to ahve a vfat on my MMC? Feb 19 18:28:33 johnx, that was ToughtFix. Feb 19 18:28:38 Should be on his blog. Feb 19 18:28:44 GeneralAntilles, someone else Feb 19 18:28:56 thoughtfix's tablet is terrifying red+black :P Feb 19 18:29:03 Oh? Feb 19 18:29:05 It WAS black Feb 19 18:29:12 http://tabletblog.com/2007/10/i-painted-my-n800.html Feb 19 18:29:23 lol Feb 19 18:29:25 That's new Feb 19 18:29:25 and this: http://www.internettablettalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6442 Feb 19 18:29:28 Well, to me. Feb 19 18:29:31 luke-jr, of course not Feb 19 18:29:37 I just remember the shot from when he got his N810 Feb 19 18:29:56 OK, what would you call a boot logo package? Feb 19 18:30:00 I can make you any n800 color you want :) Feb 19 18:30:38 "maemo.org Splash Screen" "maemo.org Startup Images" "maemo.org Boot Logo"? Something else? Feb 19 18:30:57 * thopiekar has added today 5 multisource-packages to extras(-devel) [tre,streamripper,xbitmaps,lynx,debianutils] and just waits for lynx to build xterm... Feb 19 18:31:14 err, my mmcblk1 disappeared while I was getting e2fsprogs :x Feb 19 18:31:31 maemo.org boot? O-o Feb 19 18:31:55 have I missed something?) Feb 19 18:32:15 wazd, qwerty12 put together a startup screen package for me. Feb 19 18:32:21 I'm putting the finishing touches on it. Feb 19 18:32:35 It replaces the Nokia logo, progress bar, and hands with maemo.org stuff. Feb 19 18:32:49 oh Feb 19 18:32:51 johnx: removed miniSD successfuly, rebooting to see mmc assignments Feb 19 18:32:55 can I take a look?) Feb 19 18:33:10 http://www.legacyoflies.com/devuploads/general_antilles/maemo.org.zip Feb 19 18:33:54 johnx: http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_Ki_XGZxWsq4/RytscNaqx1I/AAAAAAAAChU/0VZNFbTii8A/s400/threetablets.jpg Feb 19 18:34:18 /dev/mmcblk0p1 on /media/mmc2 type vfat (rw,nosuid,nodev,noexec,noatime,nodiratime,uid=29999,fmask=0133,dmask=0000,codepage=cp437,iocharset=iso8859-1,shortname=mixed,utf8) Feb 19 18:34:29 GeneralAntilles: I didn't include the hands because the iTT attachment have it in the zip :/ Feb 19 18:34:50 s/have/didn't have/ Feb 19 18:34:50 qwerty12_N800 meant: GeneralAntilles: I didn't include the hands because the iTT attachment didn't have it in the zip :/ Feb 19 18:34:53 wazd, nice find :) Feb 19 18:35:13 wazd: if i had mer on airbus i would be slightly more afraid to fly. Feb 19 18:35:15 qwerty12_N800, I'm assuming I can just add another dpkg-divert line to the postrm and preinsts for the hands, right. Feb 19 18:35:35 how am I *supposed* to put the miniSD in? Feb 19 18:35:51 GeneralAntilles: yep, and a dh_install line in the rules file Feb 19 18:36:32 Ah, missed that one. Feb 19 18:36:33 OK. Feb 19 18:37:01 Going with "maemo.org Startup Screen" barring better input. Feb 19 18:38:04 for everyone who wants to recorde internetradio-streams on the iTT.. check this out: http://www.internettablettalk.com/forums/showthread.php?p=265725 :) Feb 19 18:40:46 stupid miniSD won't go in all the way :zx Feb 19 18:41:56 eh, sure you are putting it in right? Feb 19 18:42:01 like, right rotation Feb 19 18:42:43 screwdriver helped Feb 19 18:42:58 Stskeeps: just can't get my fingers to push it far enough Feb 19 18:47:46 hi, i got internet connection on my n810 via usb0 but when i am trying to use browser or other app it doesn't work. I still can do app-get update or ping. How can I fix it? Feb 19 18:49:06 get a dummy connection Feb 19 18:49:22 you need a dummy-connection entry.. like the entry of your wlan, etc... If you install pc-connection in the program manager it should create such a dummy-entry Feb 19 18:49:23 .. Feb 19 18:49:49 Stskeeps: you were faster but I have more details.. Feb 19 18:50:05 hehe Feb 19 18:51:02 thopiekar: you mean apt-get install pc-connection? Feb 19 18:51:32 zs1: yes but use better the application manager.. Feb 19 18:51:44 or however its called in english.. Feb 19 18:51:55 thopiekar: Couldn't find package pc-connection Feb 19 18:52:08 apt-get in xterm could break diablo'S apt.. Feb 19 18:52:12 hmm Feb 19 18:52:22 using latest diablo? Feb 19 18:52:32 thopiekar: yes Feb 19 18:52:55 all repos installed from http://www.gronmayer.com/it/ ? Feb 19 18:53:36 thopiekar: no Feb 19 18:53:44 then do so.. Feb 19 18:53:45 i have only 3 repos Feb 19 18:53:45 ;) Feb 19 18:53:53 these are the basic one.. Feb 19 18:54:45 you would need minimaly diablo-extras or -extras-devel.. Feb 19 18:54:46 ;) Feb 19 18:55:51 zs1, I'm assuming you're running the latest Diablo? Feb 19 18:56:06 yes i do Feb 19 18:56:40 GeneralAntilles: I already asked that before :) Feb 19 18:59:57 Is this helpful? http://wiki.maemo.org/USB_networking Feb 19 19:02:41 my 4 GB microSD card included a bad partition table :p Feb 19 19:04:02 thopiekar: did you mean maemo-pc-connectivity ? Feb 19 19:04:08 yes Feb 19 19:04:10 :) Feb 19 19:05:57 i am really going to hit someone if this theory of mine is true.. Feb 19 19:06:26 * thopiekar is listening.. Feb 19 19:06:47 (read: we have -probably- been able to have modern kernels with or without open source wifi drivers for ages) Feb 19 19:06:47 see the guy who got usb webcam working on N810? Feb 19 19:07:43 pupnik_: how was his name? Feb 19 19:09:53 fergot Feb 19 19:10:09 pupnik_: hmm.. Feb 19 19:10:17 can I use LVM2 on N810? Feb 19 19:10:51 gareth porter!!! Feb 19 19:11:38 pupnik_: are you the one who was looking TV (DVB-T) on his tablet?^^ Feb 19 19:11:58 hi daperl Feb 19 19:12:09 pupnik_: gareth porter... and his nick?... Feb 19 19:12:37 GeneralAntilles: as far as i can see, it has been possible for quite a while to realize umac.ko is just a piece of software, not some special thing that attaches to a lot of kernel functions Feb 19 19:12:42 hi Feb 19 19:12:49 which is why poky linux can move umac.ko from 2.6.16 to 2.6.18 Feb 19 19:12:56 gareth porter on antiwar radio soon! http://kaosradioaustin.org Feb 19 19:12:56 lo daperl Feb 19 19:13:01 does vncviewer support proxy Feb 19 19:13:03 had a good weekend with the son? Feb 19 19:13:06 yo yo yo Feb 19 19:13:42 GeneralAntilles: which means to support a new kernel, strip the kernel headers and copy them from the dummy umac ko Feb 19 19:14:10 and do optional changes to the (open source) cx3110x driver Feb 19 19:14:26 what does Maemo do if an on-boot mount fails? Feb 19 19:14:45 fstab? it doesnt even try Feb 19 19:15:12 :o Feb 19 19:15:27 so how do I get things to mount on boot? Feb 19 19:15:52 johnx: curiously, fstab lists mmcblk0p1 as /mnt/mmc1 -- maybe related to when the order is screwy Feb 19 19:16:06 Could someone please look whether the package called *streamripper* is available on extras? Feb 19 19:20:02 gronmayer Feb 19 19:20:59 * timeless looks around Feb 19 19:21:06 so, i'm looking for more testing :) Feb 19 19:21:13 anyone wanna test strings? :) Feb 19 19:22:38 * GeneralAntilles apparently can't post a rebuttal on tabletblog. . . . Feb 19 19:23:13 if user = GeneralAntilles: ban? :P Feb 19 19:23:17 heh Feb 19 19:23:45 Stskeeps, I'm trying to login with my gmail account and it keeps complaining that the owner of the blog doesn't allow anonymous comments. Feb 19 19:23:55 Oh well, his readership will just have to continue in their silly ignorance. ;) Feb 19 19:33:41 http://www.blogcdn.com/www.engadget.com/media/2009/02/2-19-09dellnetbook.jpg Feb 19 19:33:43 Hehehe Feb 19 19:51:58 what is "pool"? Feb 19 19:53:21 or rather http://repository.maemo.org/pool/diablo/free/n/nano/ Feb 19 19:54:50 the main page suggests it is SDK only :/ Feb 19 19:54:57 any reason I can't use a package from it on the N810? Feb 19 20:06:08 http://maemo.org/development/tools/ Feb 19 20:17:21 Stskeeps: is it easy to start another desktop environment than hildon on mer/ Feb 19 20:17:23 ? Feb 19 20:17:36 fairly, if you have a n810 Feb 19 20:18:24 shit. ups still hasn't shown up yet Feb 19 20:18:29 i really want my goddamn artigo Feb 19 20:21:25 Stskeeps: I have Feb 19 20:21:41 Corsac: look at andrewfblack's lxde guide then Feb 19 20:21:58 ok Feb 19 20:22:04 on w.m.o? Feb 19 20:22:27 w.m.o? you on iTT Feb 19 20:22:31 on Feb 19 20:30:37 what image viewer do you recommend instead of default one? it eats all my ram :( Feb 19 20:31:04 quiver Feb 19 20:31:45 in extras? Feb 19 20:32:11 yeah Feb 19 20:32:15 thanks Feb 19 20:40:35 so nwo that's I've tried googling it.. how do I get swap to automount? Feb 19 21:15:12 hEllo world Feb 19 21:15:17 wello Feb 19 21:15:28 hi timelE61i Feb 19 21:15:52 * timelE61i added rhapsodyapplet to the l10n pack Feb 19 21:19:57 qwerty, so... I need uninstall help Feb 19 21:20:39 i can try & help :-) Feb 19 21:20:47 * RST38h yawns and lazily curses SigmaTel Feb 19 21:20:48 Stskeeps: as I see, you are hacking cx3110x driver for 770 now, have you checked these patches: https://garage.maemo.org/pipermail/cx3110x-devel/2008-April/000038.html ? Feb 19 21:21:21 Bastards shifted the actual frame buffer address by 1 pixel (2 bytes) Feb 19 21:21:32 basically, i somehow need to save the original files each of my locale packs replaces Feb 19 21:22:24 ssvb: yup, i have them included Feb 19 21:22:41 except for 770_performance_improvements, it didn't apply cleanly to 1.2 Feb 19 21:23:42 if my packages are upgraded, i need to *not* touch the backup Feb 19 21:23:43 apt-get install in the postrm? :P Feb 19 21:23:49 Stskeeps: that's bad, is it hard to tweak it? Feb 19 21:23:59 But when my packages are removed, i need to restore the files Feb 19 21:24:14 ssvb: not sure, but on the other hand i have a sane cx3110x driver that scans properly and so on Feb 19 21:24:15 Gan: i don't think they're available online Feb 19 21:24:27 Stskeeps: good wlan performance is nice to have on 770 because USB is slow Feb 19 21:24:28 timelE61i: use an if -e (or is it -x - cant remember) statement? Feb 19 21:24:29 timelE61i, not in the SSU repo? Feb 19 21:24:31 And i wonder if dpkg would be holding a lock :) Feb 19 21:24:33 * GeneralAntilles was be facetious anyway. Feb 19 21:24:45 timelE61i: no, wait. Feb 19 21:24:49 ssvb: besides that, i realized earlier umac.ko is just a library, you can replace the kernel modinfo structures and adapt it to newer kernels Feb 19 21:24:49 Ing Feb 19 21:24:59 like poky linux did with 2.6.18 patch Feb 19 21:25:21 ssvb: so i'm wondering if it means cx3110x can be further adapted to later kernels Feb 19 21:25:35 gan: dunno, you could check Feb 19 21:25:42 (of course it would be nice to have stlc45xx for 770 but..) Feb 19 21:25:47 We were too lazy to find the password for ssu :) Feb 19 21:26:01 Besides device could be offlne Feb 19 21:26:09 Stskeeps: that would be really great if wlan works with newer kernels in some way Feb 19 21:26:10 timelE61i: apt source ;) Feb 19 21:26:29 ssvb: i've already moved from 0.8.5 to 1.2 cx3110x, so maybe there is hope Feb 19 21:26:31 ? Feb 19 21:26:34 qwerty12_N800 has the password, I'm sure. Feb 19 21:27:00 i could consider to name my kid if i have one, the SSU password.. Feb 19 21:27:34 Stskeeps: anyway, regarding performance, getting true 802.11g speed would be really nice to have, I might try to see what is needed to port the patch to 1.2 Feb 19 21:27:49 any sane way to purge /usr/locale except en_GB, en_US, and ja? Feb 19 21:27:51 Stskeeps: though no promises of course Feb 19 21:27:53 ssvb: alright - it did apply in some spots but failed in others Feb 19 21:28:10 i got a 770 donated and so far it seems to work with wifi, and doesn't seem to die with .n networks nearby.. Feb 19 21:28:10 luke: there's a locale purge package Feb 19 21:28:18 (i think.) Feb 19 21:28:40 timelE61i: does it work in a sane fashon? Feb 19 21:28:49 * timelE61i shrugs Feb 19 21:28:55 * timelE61i doesn't do that Feb 19 21:29:11 w/o locales, how could i file amusing bugs? Feb 19 21:29:19 … Feb 19 21:29:23 21 MB of waste? Feb 19 21:29:31 until you get a japanese gf Feb 19 21:29:33 Compressed! Feb 19 21:29:59 timelE61i: you could just keep making people apply your package till you get it right. might mean a marathon coding session though Feb 19 21:30:37 Vcell: have you applied it lately? Feb 19 21:30:49 timelE61i: when dpkg runs a prerm script etc, it runs with a $1 = what it is doing. So if we are upgrading, the script is ran with upgrade etc. so in your script, just have something like [ if $1 = upgrade ]; then etc Feb 19 21:30:51 im not in -US Feb 19 21:31:19 and the amount of regular apps i run i wouldnt be able to tell it worked anyway Feb 19 21:31:32 vcell: they're not bad actually, even I use -US now... Feb 19 21:31:59 nobody has ported apps to my dialect yet Feb 19 21:31:59 Stskeeps: that's why I'm keeping ja locale? Feb 19 21:32:18 I just installed a virus on my s60 phone via bt Feb 19 21:32:33 My n810 sent me an sis file ! Feb 19 21:32:34 "ey up, th' interwebs loading, best get a cuppa" Feb 19 21:33:27 vcell: that's en_GB_DODGYNORTH Feb 19 21:33:43 yeah likely Feb 19 21:33:53 * vcell splutters Feb 19 21:33:56 well.. got my artigo Feb 19 21:34:00 finally got it to boot heh Feb 19 21:35:18 vcell: seriously, i'd hope anyone here would prefer my locale over the nokia native Feb 19 21:38:27 mmkay Feb 19 21:38:33 was octave ported to tablets? Feb 19 21:38:36 because i want it. Feb 19 21:38:49 hello Stskeeps Feb 19 21:38:59 good morning! Feb 19 21:39:14 Stskeeps: think lardman has some old packages... Feb 19 21:39:44 jaem_afk: it's afternoon here :P Feb 19 21:39:51 because it might actually save me from going totally insane with this linear algebra course Feb 19 21:40:29 b-man: it is here too, but I thought we used UGT? Feb 19 21:40:39 Stskeeps: http://www.totallycrap.com/videos/videos_college_algebra_has_scarred_this_guy/ Feb 19 21:40:52 * vcell just watched that today Feb 19 21:41:02 if you wanna build it yourself (the build deps are a-plenty), make sure to compile it to use the vfp Feb 19 21:41:16 qwerty12_N800: i think it might be a reason to use mer.. :P Feb 19 21:41:19 timelE61i: im ok with the wording, most dialogs go over my head, its less what they say, more that they come up at right times Feb 19 21:41:45 im used to working on international computers without translation Feb 19 21:41:49 also xcas - if anyone feels like building it before I get time, I'd be obliged Feb 19 21:42:04 Stskeeps: you'll still have to build it yourself (although apt-get build-dep octave3.1 will be easier) Feb 19 21:42:11 yeah Feb 19 21:42:16 what's an intl. computer? Feb 19 21:42:48 one that you payed a fortune to get shipped to you Feb 19 21:42:55 a larger fortune if you used UPS Feb 19 21:42:57 vcell: yes, i have similar feelings Feb 19 21:43:00 oh wait... that's my problem Feb 19 21:43:05 one with software from multiple computers and settings configured for users in different countries Feb 19 21:43:15 multiple countries Feb 19 21:44:00 go artigo go Feb 19 21:44:01 :) Feb 19 21:44:04 Stskeeps, could I use Mer as my build and packaging machine? Feb 19 21:44:08 with your C7 beastly CPU Feb 19 21:44:09 haha Feb 19 21:44:28 this thing is the size of 2 n800 stacked on top of one another lying flat Feb 19 21:44:36 it's awesome Feb 19 21:44:54 GeneralAntilles: if for maemo, only with scratchbox installed.. if for mer, if it builds on x86, it probably builds in our armel builders too :P Feb 19 21:44:59 Gan: that's what i'm doing Feb 19 21:45:18 GeneralAntilles: (occasionally a libc6 dependancy maemo can't satisfy shows up) Feb 19 21:45:18 I'm building my locales in mer-vmdk Feb 19 21:45:24 Stskeeps, well, packaging up source packages for the autobuilder? Feb 19 21:45:29 GeneralAntilles: yeah, sure Feb 19 21:45:34 And installing on maemo-n8x0 Feb 19 21:45:53 Gan: sure, i do that :) Feb 19 21:45:58 sts... i should install mer on it! :-D Feb 19 21:46:27 I'm going to have to break down at some point and either fix my Beagle or buy a cheap x86 rig. ;) Feb 19 21:46:41 GeneralAntilles: get an artigo :) Feb 19 21:46:41 fix your beagle Feb 19 21:46:49 c7 ftw Feb 19 21:46:55 Artigo? Feb 19 21:47:03 GeneralAntilles: beagle runs mer now too ;P Feb 19 21:47:09 then again, it did run maemo too Feb 19 21:47:10 vcell, that's been my intention for a while. Feb 19 21:47:12 something special about now having an intel or amd cpu in this thing Feb 19 21:47:13 or ill call the ASPCA Feb 19 21:47:16 it reminds me of the days of the ppc Feb 19 21:47:18 But I fail totally at managing to accomplish it. Feb 19 21:47:20 :) Feb 19 21:47:32 I'm predicting it's going to end up getting fixed at the Summit. Feb 19 21:47:44 Heh Feb 19 21:47:54 lol or it will be buried in the backyard Feb 19 21:48:01 ah yes... "via... the other cpu" Feb 19 21:48:06 Stskeeps, I'll let you play with my Newton if you bring a working recovery card. :P Feb 19 21:48:16 it's odd that intel and amd are working so hard on their low power stuff Feb 19 21:48:19 GeneralAntilles: so you don't even get serial output? Feb 19 21:48:29 Stskeeps, nah, I get serial output. Feb 19 21:48:37 just no uboot prompt? Feb 19 21:48:39 as if out the blue they've decided there might be money to be made from extremely compact low power cpu design Feb 19 21:48:40 macer, not odd - required Feb 19 21:48:42 Right Feb 19 21:48:53 and I only managed to get it to use a recovery card once. Feb 19 21:49:10 vcell: i suppose... via and arm are way ahead of the giants Feb 19 21:49:18 and proceeded to mess it up again? ;) Feb 19 21:49:26 Macer, ARM is a giant. ;) Feb 19 21:49:30 Stskeeps, I guess. Feb 19 21:49:34 true Feb 19 21:49:41 Stskeeps, I don't much care for the instructions on their wiki. Feb 19 21:49:46 * vcell this big *holds out his arms* Feb 19 21:49:58 does arm even produce their own cpus though? Feb 19 21:49:59 There's an array of uboot and xloader binaries but I'm not sure which ones to use for what. Feb 19 21:50:05 don't they just lic the tech and let their customers do it? Feb 19 21:50:21 bbl, coughing fit Feb 19 21:52:05 I would have uploaded octave to extras but the thing doesn't build for armel with this crappy toolkit Feb 19 21:52:17 nice to see it's booting from the usb cdrom :) Feb 19 21:52:24 GeneralAntilles: heh, usb recovery looks freaky Feb 19 21:52:30 progress heh.. damnit.. have to hook up this network cable .. shti Feb 19 21:53:03 GeneralAntilles: but regarding uboot binaries there are referred some Feb 19 21:53:20 * timelE61i slip Feb 19 21:53:20 anybody here use twin before? Feb 19 21:53:30 * timelE61i slips Feb 19 21:53:38 mikkov_: i'd like to see the cs2008 toolchain in the autobuilder :>, it's the only way i can get aircrack-ng built in my sbox Feb 19 21:53:42 kind of like... a txt based window manger .. not X but somethig you could ssh to and use with moving windows etc.. Feb 19 21:53:44 Stskeeps, I think I need to get another SD card. Feb 19 21:53:45 timelE61i: ice and mobile phone chatting while walking doesn't go together Feb 19 21:53:47 seems pretty good Feb 19 21:53:58 GeneralAntilles: plausible.. my beagle seemed to eat mine Feb 19 21:54:19 ... Feb 19 21:55:16 More like walking and ice don't go together Feb 19 21:55:34 timelE61i, watch the sidewalk, not your phone. :P Feb 19 21:56:10 timelE61i: i am starting to get some rather weird mental images of your rl behaviour when you tell some of your experiences with walk-while-chatting :P Feb 19 21:56:11 gan: right call, but too late Feb 19 21:56:14 I'm home Feb 19 21:56:26 macer: no, ARM doesn't manufacture anything Feb 19 21:56:59 jaem, except for their prototypes, I guess. Feb 19 21:58:20 GA, I'd presume they still get someone else to fab those... Feb 19 21:58:56 exctly Feb 19 21:59:01 Yeah, probably right. Didn't IBM put together the 32nm prototype? Feb 19 21:59:03 ARM has no fabs, afaik Feb 19 21:59:13 * timelE61i boggles Feb 19 21:59:14 hence "fabless semi" Feb 19 21:59:37 i just woke up my laptop and outlook said it's connection was restored Feb 19 21:59:39 GA: I usually put together ASICS for myself... with tweezers and a magnifying glass Feb 19 21:59:43 ;) Feb 19 21:59:57 But it needs a vpn, and my wifi wasn't even established Feb 19 21:59:59 jaem, how do you do that? "Very carefully." :P Feb 19 22:00:09 very, *very* carefully Feb 19 22:00:23 well.. the gui install of kubuntu is running on the thing.. so it can't be all that bad Feb 19 22:00:39 try ArchLinux :P Feb 19 22:00:51 it would be a lot slimmer, esp with KDE Feb 19 22:01:09 *buntu isn't that bad, but compared to Arch, it seems bloated Feb 19 22:01:39 jaem: but it is an easy install.. was going to use gentoo on it but just want to see what it can do first Feb 19 22:02:10 macer: I've heard Arch called "Gentoo without the Gentoo", but it's not that bad Feb 19 22:02:49 it takes a git of work to set up, but their goal is simplicity (as in technical elegance, not newbie-friendliness), so if you know Linux well, it's no big deal Feb 19 22:02:54 heh.. well.. i want to see if this thing can run kde4 Feb 19 22:02:58 s/git/bit/ Feb 19 22:02:58 jaem meant: it takes a bit of work to set up, but their goal is simplicity (as in technical elegance, not newbie-friendliness), so if you know Linux well, it's no big deal Feb 19 22:03:03 Arch has that Feb 19 22:03:06 i was going to use it as a very small linux desktop Feb 19 22:03:17 and you can get a much slimmer install of it than with Kubuntu Feb 19 22:03:26 it's ok. it has a 100G hd ;) Feb 19 22:03:32 i'm not hurting on space Feb 19 22:03:35 I meant memory-wise Feb 19 22:04:03 btw, Macer, how much does your device cost? Feb 19 22:04:05 yeah i suppose... but like i said.. want to see what this via chipset can do.. kubuntu is a good test of how well it can handle Feb 19 22:04:11 fair enough Feb 19 22:04:17 it was $300 w/ 1G of ram included in the pkg Feb 19 22:04:27 the hard drive i had lying around from an old laptop that broke Feb 19 22:05:00 cu tomorrow :) Feb 19 22:05:10 oh nifty... that looks cool Feb 19 22:05:27 the artigo? Feb 19 22:05:33 yeah Feb 19 22:06:04 well.. looks can be deceiving ;) that's why i need to test it out... if it works well... i might replace one of my shuttles and just stack about 4 of these in an atx case Feb 19 22:06:16 haha Feb 19 22:06:24 bbiab Feb 19 22:06:56 pet peeve of the day: TA's who steal the plastic cover you gave them your handin in. Feb 19 22:07:27 Stskeeps, poison the covers. Feb 19 22:07:53 not worth the risk of complain', though, eh? ;) Feb 19 22:08:34 GeneralAntilles: at one point i accidentially put coins inside a plastic cover.. that was the first time the TA (who in this case was the courses former teacher..) had anyone try to bribe him.. Feb 19 22:08:58 (he failed my handin anyway.) Feb 19 22:09:14 pay him more! Feb 19 22:10:13 haha Feb 19 22:11:12 he wouldn't believe you? Feb 19 22:11:22 that stinks Feb 19 22:11:49 omg this shit is taking forever to install Feb 19 22:11:56 WORK ALREADY DAMNIT! :) Feb 19 22:12:22 blah. it's just a watched teapot Feb 19 22:16:32 Stskeeps: use some form of invisible ink that over time reappears ;) and put something like goatse on it Feb 19 22:16:53 4 MB saved by removing tutorial-home-applet :D Feb 19 22:17:00 hm. i don't know if this thing has slow video because it's just slow. or because the install program uses vesa drivers Feb 19 22:17:13 i'm hoping it's because the install uses vesa for universal support Feb 19 22:17:39 hopefully when it actually boots it says "DETECTING VIA PIECE OF SHIT VIDEO CHIPSET!" Feb 19 22:21:28 vesa, hahaha - OLD skool Feb 19 22:22:58 fireun: a lot of things use vesa since it is standard Feb 19 22:23:11 like (which i'm guessing) this kubuntu install Feb 19 22:23:24 cool, my e61i can order my n800's rhapsody around :) Feb 19 22:23:44 you get rhapsody in .fi? Feb 19 22:25:19 not normally Feb 19 22:25:33 but at least before we shipped rhapsody i was able to use it Feb 19 22:25:50 ah :) Feb 19 22:25:56 i tested it today at work Feb 19 22:25:59 got an edimax usb2 wifi adapter too Feb 19 22:26:00 it didn't work at dinner Feb 19 22:26:04 and it's working here @home Feb 19 22:26:07 supposed to just work in ubuntu Feb 19 22:27:39 * Stskeeps is starting to have a bit of respect for the fact maemo could be squeezed into 770 flash. Feb 19 22:27:52 770 is slow and sucky. :P Feb 19 22:28:09 nice case though Feb 19 22:28:12 so far it isn't -that- bad Feb 19 22:28:30 isn't it a bit on the clunky side? Feb 19 22:28:36 the case i mean Feb 19 22:28:43 kind of large compared to the n800? Feb 19 22:28:45 The hard cover is overrated. Feb 19 22:29:06 the hard cover is useless Feb 19 22:29:11 * timeless happily lost it immediately Feb 19 22:29:32 Now, the kickstand Feb 19 22:29:36 That was a stroke of genius. Feb 19 22:29:42 Macer: you could kill with it Feb 19 22:29:54 haha Feb 19 22:29:57 Macer: try that with n810 and see what happens Feb 19 22:30:36 *clunk* aaaaah Feb 19 22:30:39 yep, stil works Feb 19 22:30:50 that guy's pretty dead Feb 19 22:30:58 all right, sleep time Feb 19 22:31:14 night, RST38h Feb 19 22:32:07 GA: I second that opinion - are there any other devices of similar form-factor with a kickstand? I haven't seen any Feb 19 22:32:26 * jaem just put his socks on the wrong feet Feb 19 22:38:33 i'll be damned. it boots Feb 19 22:38:35 why is /tmp only 512 KB? Feb 19 22:38:45 well. it's trying to boot... :) lets see if it can make it all the way into kde4 Feb 19 22:38:45 heh Feb 19 22:40:04 i have the same files... Feb 19 22:40:21 oops, w/w Feb 19 22:43:24 luke-jr: to keep apps from thinking they should waste precious space in /tmp? :P Feb 19 22:45:19 does anyone mind helping me with bootmenu issues? Feb 19 22:45:44 I have been unable to find any clear docs on the *.item format, and now can't boot into one of the three installs on my N810 Feb 19 22:45:44 mm? Feb 19 22:46:00 I installed to my ext card with console-tools Feb 19 22:46:06 then installed Mer on the internal card Feb 19 22:46:18 and I'm not sure exactly how to write the *.item file Feb 19 22:46:34 fairly simple.. sec Feb 19 22:46:40 sure, thanks Feb 19 22:46:50 it looked simple, but apparently I did something wrong Feb 19 22:47:50 http://rafb.net/p/XEMZ5Z32.html Feb 19 22:47:58 and then refresh_bootmenu.d Feb 19 22:48:30 that looks like what I did, only it's on p2 of the external card Feb 19 22:48:44 oh wait Feb 19 22:48:48 that could be the issue >_< Feb 19 22:49:20 thanks, sts Feb 19 22:50:35 any way to get the file manager to show more dirs? Feb 19 22:51:57 hmmm... now it boots, but crashes after the creepy hands logo Feb 19 22:52:03 * jaem looks into it Feb 19 22:52:14 er, i did write rw and not ro, right? Feb 19 22:52:25 yep Feb 19 22:52:30 hm, k Feb 19 22:52:31 and I didn't copy verbatim anyhow Feb 19 22:52:40 make sure yours says ro then :P Feb 19 22:52:45 er Feb 19 22:52:45 rw Feb 19 22:52:52 which one is it?! :D Feb 19 22:52:53 rw Feb 19 22:52:56 I presume Feb 19 22:56:50 … Feb 19 22:57:39 luke-jr: by "more", do you mean more at once, or more than just the images/videos/docs folders? Feb 19 23:09:46 this thing is pretty fucking awesome :) Feb 19 23:10:29 which? Feb 19 23:10:32 even though the video is a little on the slow side Feb 19 23:10:35 the artigo Feb 19 23:10:44 it gets a B :) Feb 19 23:11:08 maybe the newer via chipset with dx9 support and faster cpu will get an A if it can do better video Feb 19 23:11:39 i'm upgrading all the kubuntu stuff on it now and have to close it up and put it somewhere.. i hope my kvm starts working with it Feb 19 23:12:09 when i say dx9.. i mean hopefully it will support compositing.. which this doesn't seem to want to do Feb 19 23:12:44 maybe intel will release something with their chipset that is similar.. i know their smaller video chipsets can do compositing.. not the quickest.. but it still works nonetheless Feb 19 23:15:04 Stskeeps: you guys fix the dual menus yet? :) Feb 19 23:15:17 nah, been busy doing some 770 related stuff Feb 19 23:15:27 i did try to investigate though Feb 19 23:15:31 i honestly can't see why it appears Feb 19 23:15:37 770 related stuff? :) Feb 19 23:15:43 wtf? Feb 19 23:16:06 mer based 770 related stuff? Feb 19 23:16:07 nokia 770 support, we already have quite a lot running on it (from MMC) Feb 19 23:16:17 and i just got wifi properly working, i think Feb 19 23:16:29 so all the tablets are supported in one way or the other Feb 19 23:16:37 i see Feb 19 23:16:53 you guys are sure going the distance huh? Feb 19 23:17:10 out of curiousity .. not to question your motives.. but what do you gain from doing all this work? Feb 19 23:17:12 did i mention the beagleboard, pandora devel board, pocket loox 720 port? :P Feb 19 23:17:16 i mean.. is it a project for school or something? Feb 19 23:18:08 or do you just do it to do it? Feb 19 23:18:11 part of my contributions is work-related, part is my free time, and part is to get knowledge and do something for the community Feb 19 23:18:26 and to enhance my job possibilities post-graduation Feb 19 23:18:38 hmhm, the qemu -M n810 seems broken here Feb 19 23:18:45 mipid_reset: Display off Feb 19 23:18:51 and then just a white screen Feb 19 23:18:58 but what job possibilities open up by making a linux based distro for n770s and n8x0s? Feb 19 23:19:04 are you going to try to work at nokia? Feb 19 23:19:19 Macer: that's just cos it is possible and someone donated a 770 Feb 19 23:19:40 n8x0s cos noone else was going to step up it seems Feb 19 23:19:40 Corsac: dump the mtd1 from a device with the no-lifeguard-reset flag Feb 19 23:20:02 i see. i just as much figured you were going to work at nokia ... i'm sure they wouldn't mind picking up a developer Feb 19 23:20:29 Macer: meh, not a worry just yet Feb 19 23:20:34 qwerty12_N800: I don't need to boot maemo, only install a debian on it Feb 19 23:20:39 qwerty12_N800: do I still need that? Feb 19 23:20:56 (and how should I do that “dump” ?) Feb 19 23:20:59 well.. once you get a good working stable Mer.. you should try and see if they'll hire you as a developer Feb 19 23:21:08 Macer: if anything we can always hope this work assists with discount codes for rx-51 :P Feb 19 23:21:11 sounds like something you may enjoy Feb 19 23:21:20 hahahhaa Feb 19 23:21:23 !! Feb 19 23:21:39 that's a lot of hours to put in for discount codes ;) Feb 19 23:21:43 yeah Feb 19 23:22:07 on the other hand once i'm done with the 770 work, i can introduce my gf to the tablet universe :P Feb 19 23:22:14 good luck with that Feb 19 23:22:25 i tried with my gf and the n800 :) she would rather use her G1 Feb 19 23:22:25 please introduce your gf privately Feb 19 23:22:52 she didn't see the appeal... i almost felt like dumping her right hten and there Feb 19 23:22:54 haha Feb 19 23:23:10 Corsac: the dump is needed afaik, if it's just debian you're booting, then you probably don't need the no-lifeguard-reset flag.but anyway, on a n8x0, as root, 'cat /dev/mtd1ro > /media/mmc1/dump' Feb 19 23:23:12 snatching my n800 out of her hands saying "I don't think this is going to work out..." Feb 19 23:23:44 ok Feb 19 23:23:58 Macer: besides that, the space between laptops and embedded systems is exploding these days. Feb 19 23:24:19 it will be good to know your way around the challenges of it Feb 19 23:24:31 yah. it does seem to be taking off rather quickly Feb 19 23:24:38 Stskeeps: never let it be said that you aren't generous... introducing tablets to your gf with the worst one of 'em all :p Feb 19 23:24:41 strange that coming down in power and speed can be a good thing sometimes :) Feb 19 23:24:50 qwerty12_N800: when i get rx-51 she gets n800 :P Feb 19 23:24:51 but then again.. people don't usually race cadallacs Feb 19 23:25:10 i doubt i will have problems finding a job as a graduate of my university, but i rather want to do figure out something i would like to do for a living Feb 19 23:25:18 Stskeeps: hehe, fair enough :D Feb 19 23:25:38 qwerty12_N800: and then I should use that dump as kernel? initrd? something else? Feb 19 23:25:55 Stskeeps: heh... i know a girl who got a policical science MBA from depaul university just to wind up becoming a web designer Feb 19 23:25:58 i thought that was odd Feb 19 23:26:09 Macer: well .. political science Feb 19 23:26:32 Corsac: can't remember the option sorry, i may be able to find it Feb 19 23:26:36 i suppose it could help in web design.. but usually you would expect someone who majored in political science to well... be into politics :) Feb 19 23:27:02 it would be like someone with an engineering degree from MIT opening a flower shop Feb 19 23:27:05 it just seems odd Feb 19 23:27:18 -mtdblock maybe Feb 19 23:27:35 i have 5 years of being involved with research projects and before that managing a successful open source project.. at least i hope my resume will make me attractive Feb 19 23:28:19 * Stskeeps yawns Feb 19 23:28:28 doesn't seem to work, maybe I still need the reset stuff Feb 19 23:29:23 welp. i'm going to shove this thing in a tiny spot under my shuttle and small bookshelf stereo Feb 19 23:29:32 heh.. this thing is great.. at least now i have a solid linux desktop to work with Feb 19 23:33:45 * b-man finally gets around to updating the ubuntu-n8x0 repository Feb 19 23:34:25 b-man: we have added some updated HAL stuff you might want too Feb 19 23:34:42 k :) Feb 19 23:35:05 it will enable Fn usage on n810 for instance Feb 19 23:35:44 i've also noticed you've added cnetworkmanager Feb 19 23:36:19 that was me, i needed it for powerlaunch ;) Feb 19 23:37:38 offline mode is a godsend :P Feb 19 23:37:53 hehe Feb 19 23:38:40 i'm just amazed the method i use for detection works :/ Feb 19 23:39:39 http://marcin.juszkiewicz.com.pl/2008/04/11/nokia-n800-emulation/ it seems that I'm not the only one having problems with my config partition :) Feb 19 23:39:57 read part 2 :) Feb 19 23:40:28 ok so the no-lifeguard-reset seems to be mandatory Feb 19 23:40:55 Corsac: if you get it working, feel free to take up the QEMU N8x0 image of Mer task up :P Feb 19 23:41:05 i have rootfs and kernel somewhere Feb 19 23:41:25 Corsac: ah, sorry, i assumed it was only so because poky doesn't need mtd1 dump at all Feb 19 23:41:38 qwerty12_N800: I'll try and report Feb 19 23:42:23 Corsac: there's a part II to the post Feb 19 23:42:45 been a long time since i used n810 qemu emulation, input really bugged me so I rm -rf'ed the folder out of frustration :) Feb 19 23:43:13 ssh to the rescue :) Feb 19 23:43:20 (I intend to use it mainly for building) Feb 19 23:44:12 building using maemo? :P Feb 19 23:44:36 no Feb 19 23:45:35 mmk Feb 19 23:45:55 * Stskeeps uses a debian armel-versatile Feb 19 23:46:11 with a buildd rootstrap chroot Feb 19 23:46:29 I'm currently installing lenny in qemu armel-versatile Feb 19 23:48:26 but I guess it'd be nicer to use -N n810 :) Feb 19 23:48:41 maybe useless for a pure debian, too Feb 19 23:48:48 if n810 is only useful for maemo Feb 19 23:49:28 well i have booted ubuntu within n810 machine at some point too :P Feb 19 23:51:33 doesn't work either Feb 19 23:52:01 I'm using versatile kernel, though Feb 19 23:54:38 try grab zImage from a FIASCO image instead :P Feb 19 23:58:27 hmmh Feb 19 23:58:35 not sure it'll work, but it's worth trying Feb 19 23:58:38 the flasher can do that? Feb 19 23:59:12 flasher-3.0 -u -F Feb 20 00:00:20 wow Feb 20 00:00:24 lots of stuff on console Feb 20 00:00:29 nothing in the SDL window Feb 20 00:01:51 (and still mipid_reset: Display off Feb 20 00:03:47 yeah, remember framebuffer console is a luxury :P Feb 20 00:05:18 yeah but still, nothing is displayed at all Feb 20 00:05:25 hmmh, oh. Feb 20 00:05:37 the installer uses framebuffer Feb 20 00:18:28 mpf, even with instructions on how to boot maemo, no chance Feb 20 00:18:37 well, maybe, but white screen Feb 20 00:19:05 think one of the kernels is a bit silent Feb 20 00:19:06 bbl Feb 20 01:20:41 jaem: I mean /media/data that I created Feb 20 01:49:00 http://linuxdevices.com/news/NS6712574135.html Feb 20 01:49:04 Sounds power intensive. Feb 20 02:13:42 Hey GeneralAntilles Your around Feb 20 02:13:49 AndrewFBlack, hum? Feb 20 02:14:39 GeneralAntilles I contacted Quim about maemobox.org making sure I wont be getting contacted by any laywers and I havn't heard anything from them you know of any way to contrac him he doesn't come on irc does he? Feb 20 02:15:26 if you find the magic tallisman to keep way lawyers, please please post about it =) Feb 20 02:15:52 AndrewFBlack, he comes on IRC every once and a while. Feb 20 02:15:53 qgil Feb 20 02:18:00 maybe if I don't ask any questions I wont get bothered lol Feb 20 02:58:20 Bacon Salt!!!! Feb 20 02:58:25 (@woot) Feb 20 02:59:03 We should all stock up for the summit, Feb 20 02:59:37 wow.. that knetworkmanager crap is fail Feb 20 02:59:37 heh Feb 20 02:59:57 i have no idea how it works per user.. but screw that crap.. it is horrible :) **** ENDING LOGGING AT Fri Feb 20 02:59:58 2009