**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Wed May 06 02:59:57 2009
May 06 03:10:37 <luke-jr> wow, my N810 got lucky
May 06 03:10:41 <luke-jr> TTFF < 1 min
May 06 03:10:54 <Proteous> TTFF?
May 06 03:11:01 <luke-jr> Time To First Fix (GPS)
May 06 03:11:05 <Proteous> heh
May 06 03:38:16 <LiraNuna> is the TTFF long because of software or hardware?
May 06 03:50:15 <luke-jr> LiraNuna: software
May 06 04:05:58 <LiraNuna> luke-jr, and gps is closed source, right?
May 06 04:06:05 <luke-jr> LiraNuna: yes
May 06 04:06:17 <LiraNuna> chipset known?
May 06 04:06:30 <luke-jr> TI GPS5300
May 06 04:09:30 <LiraNuna> oh, did you guys heard about the Samsung Mondi?
May 06 04:11:48 <LiraNuna> looks like a ripoff to me -> http://liranuna.com/junk/mondi_n810.jpg
May 06 04:17:14 <Bobbe> tank-man, thanks
May 06 04:17:19 <Bobbe> exactly what I was looking for
May 06 06:18:38 <luke-jr> I thought Qt Mapper was a port of Maemo Mapper.. why does it have practically no functionality? :/
May 06 06:22:45 <thux> morning
May 06 06:24:02 * thux would like to try flashrom in my lap but no coreboot.bins available :P
May 06 06:26:52 <ZakkmN800> chatting from nokia n800 is hard
May 06 06:27:14 <Stskeeps> yeah, sometimes
May 06 06:27:34 <johnx> need a keyboard :)
May 06 06:27:39 <luke-jr> heh
May 06 06:28:04 <ZakkmN800> i have one its attached to pc though i gota f to f adapter
May 06 06:34:43 * RST38h moos
May 06 06:35:01 <Stskeeps> moo Robot101
May 06 06:35:03 <Stskeeps> er.
May 06 06:35:05 <Stskeeps> RST38h
May 06 06:35:19 <RST38h> heya sts, all
May 06 06:35:47 <johnx> morning RST38h
May 06 06:36:28 * Stskeeps glances at the rs232 connector pics
May 06 06:36:54 <RST38h> male or female part?
May 06 06:37:19 <RST38h> (sorry had to ask that =))
May 06 06:37:21 <Stskeeps> hehe
May 06 06:37:43 <Stskeeps> well i asked them if there was a console connector on the board, and turns out there is :) sent me 4 high res pics of their solution for it, heh
May 06 06:38:11 <RST38h> there usually is, sometimes two
May 06 06:38:27 <johnx> two consoles at once? what would that be like? :D
May 06 06:38:28 <Stskeeps> and the device even can boot from boot sector on a SD
May 06 06:38:43 <RST38h> whose SoC are they using anyway?
May 06 06:38:47 <Stskeeps> smdk6410
May 06 06:39:00 <Stskeeps> is what it seems to be modelled on
May 06 06:39:22 * Stskeeps wonders if it's possible to tap into the ethernet or IDE.
May 06 06:39:58 <RST38h> either would require external circuitry
May 06 06:40:03 <Stskeeps> yeah, obviously
May 06 06:40:18 <ZakkmN800> woahh usb keyboardd :)
May 06 06:40:37 <ZakkmN800> Gotta love the f-f adapter.
May 06 06:41:01 <ZakkmN800> lots of wires though :(
May 06 06:41:16 <RST38h> thats samsung...
May 06 06:41:31 <Stskeeps> yeah
May 06 06:42:10 <ZakkmN800> Stskeeps: you got home yet to try the smartq?
May 06 06:42:22 <Stskeeps> ZakkmN800: long ago. runs mer already
May 06 06:42:25 <ZakkmN800> yo guys, i pressed some button and now i seem to have spellcheck popped up?
May 06 06:42:33 <ZakkmN800> what just happened/ what i press
May 06 06:42:34 <Stskeeps> ZakkmN800: took me less than 24 hours to port it
May 06 06:43:14 <ZakkmN800> i dont know what i pressed :( i want it gone :(
May 06 06:43:22 <ZakkmN800> and thats cool, full support?
May 06 06:43:54 <Stskeeps> i'm missing 3-4 things and i have a fully open source firmware
May 06 06:44:19 <ZakkmN800> Stskeeps, did you benchmark it yet ?
May 06 06:44:30 <Stskeeps> not yet
May 06 06:44:32 <ZakkmN800> to see how well it compares to nokia tablet?
May 06 06:44:51 <Stskeeps> nokia tablet has advantages in speaker and double-sd
May 06 06:45:03 <Stskeeps> and the fact nokia doesn't die when charger is taken out :)
May 06 06:45:19 <ZakkmN800> the smartq dies?
May 06 06:45:27 <ZakkmN800> mer thing or bad device?
May 06 06:45:38 <Stskeeps> charger circuit fault on first batch
May 06 06:45:45 <Stskeeps> but works fine on battery after that
May 06 06:45:53 <ZakkmN800> heh thats weird :)
May 06 06:46:00 <Stskeeps> i have their firmware maker, rs232 console access, console, boot-from-SD, etc
May 06 06:46:08 <ZakkmN800> also i find it weird it says usb device not supported, yet keyboard works fine ;p
May 06 06:46:24 <ZakkmN800> it looks nicer than the tablets
May 06 06:46:34 <ZakkmN800> well n810 looks better, but cant afford that :)
May 06 06:47:12 <ZakkmN800> would make a nice alternate i think, having alot of mer devices
May 06 06:47:44 <Stskeeps> also, n8x0 had dpad.
May 06 06:47:48 <Stskeeps> and esc buttn etc.
May 06 06:47:50 <Stskeeps> i miss that.
May 06 06:47:58 <ZakkmN800> what esc button?
May 06 06:48:03 <Stskeeps> the back button?
May 06 06:48:06 <ZakkmN800> oh
May 06 06:48:14 <ZakkmN800> i think esc as like ¨ëxit¨
May 06 06:48:20 <ZakkmN800> ör close
May 06 06:49:00 <ZakkmN800> the smartq is at a nice price too
May 06 06:50:09 <Stskeeps> i wouldn't mind a couple of them around my house really
May 06 06:50:18 <Stskeeps> oh, it does suspend to ram too
May 06 06:51:04 <ZakkmN800> the nokia should do that too i think
May 06 06:51:09 <ZakkmN800> shouldnt it?
May 06 06:51:25 <ZakkmN800> why doesnt it?
May 06 06:51:41 <Stskeeps> it does but this one it seems to work nicley
May 06 06:52:16 <Stskeeps> anyway, i gotta head to class soon
May 06 06:52:23 <ZakkmN800> in school?
May 06 06:52:43 <Stskeeps> finishing my masters degree
May 06 06:52:50 <ZakkmN800> oh wow
May 06 06:52:55 <ZakkmN800> that must take long.
May 06 06:53:15 <Stskeeps> 6 years (i am one year behind)
May 06 06:53:36 <ZakkmN800> wow
May 06 06:53:48 <ZakkmN800> and to think my post secondary education will only be 2-3 years :)
May 06 06:53:52 <Stskeeps> hehe
May 06 06:53:54 <ZakkmN800> most likely less
May 06 06:53:58 <Stskeeps> the 6 years go fast.
May 06 06:54:01 <ZakkmN800> (in last grade of highschool)
May 06 06:54:59 <ZakkmN800> 1/3 of my life :)
May 06 06:56:08 <Stskeeps> heh, i'm turning 25 and then im done with university and school, hopefully forever
May 06 06:56:24 <Stskeeps> was thinking of pursuing a phd but now i'm just dead tired of school.
May 06 06:57:02 <ZakkmN800> i dont understand how people going for doctor and stuff do it
May 06 06:57:27 <ZakkmN800> a good friend is mine is in uni now to become a surgeon, and im just thinking way too much school
May 06 06:58:51 <ZakkmN800> this is so cool, n800 + xchat + usb keyboard
May 06 06:59:04 <ZakkmN800> maybe i should get a bluetooth keyboard or soemthing, use in school
May 06 07:46:33 <X-Fade> Morning
May 06 07:47:30 <StsN801> morn X-Fade
May 06 07:52:21 * X-Fade is thinking of distilling this QA discussion in a wiki page.
May 06 07:52:38 <X-Fade> And then come up with a concrete plan of actually implementing the thing.
May 06 07:53:37 <timeless_mbp> QA?
May 06 07:53:41 <timeless_mbp> what's that?
May 06 07:53:55 <X-Fade> timeless_mbp: Exactly ;)
May 06 07:54:28 <timeless_mbp> is it where people say "i don't think this is my bug, lemme give it to the next guy", the next guy says "oh, it's not my bug, invalid", the reporter says "but i didn't say it was your bug reopen", first guy "what priority should this have?", "please set a priority"
May 06 07:54:54 <timeless_mbp> engineer who ignored qa "oh, i already fixed something like this (by doing the opposite of what was asked here, already fixed"
May 06 07:55:04 <timeless_mbp> qa "reporter, please verify this urgently"
May 06 07:55:13 <X-Fade> timeless_mbp: Well, I guess we will start with: Works vs Doesn't work ;)
May 06 07:55:31 <timeless_mbp> with or without specs specifying what's expected? :)
May 06 07:56:20 <timeless_mbp> btw, in case it wasn't obvious, while what i described above happens, it isn't QA, it's people who have been given a funny hat with "Quirky Actor" written on it (the lowercase letters are so small that no one can read them)
May 06 08:07:29 <RST38h> X-Fade: What discussion?
May 06 08:07:43 <RST38h> X-Fade: Are there changes to bug processing coming?
May 06 08:08:03 <X-Fade> RST38h: -developers
May 06 08:08:07 <RST38h> ah
May 06 08:08:47 <RST38h> Shit, the maemo community page is a total mess :(
May 06 08:09:39 <RST38h> Funny how none of the committee members thought of placing stuff that is actually being USED on top
May 06 08:11:01 <RST38h> X-Fade: "QA from extras-devel to extras-testing" ?
May 06 08:11:09 <X-Fade> RST38h: Yes.
May 06 08:12:13 <johnx> thought the quality on extras was actually pretty good
May 06 08:12:31 <RST38h> X-Fade: I agree with Matan that the whole discussion is ominous
May 06 08:12:40 <X-Fade> johnx: Well yes and no.
May 06 08:12:45 <RST38h> Current Extras are pretty good as they are
May 06 08:13:04 <X-Fade> There are still some packages that are presenting themselves as user packages, but actually are not.
May 06 08:13:29 <RST38h> X-Fade: Then deal with them on one-to-one basis
May 06 08:13:46 <X-Fade> Mostly issues that could be spotted by some automated process and fixed by the developer when he/she even knew about it.
May 06 08:14:31 <RST38h> Automatic scan + email + check for changes + removal if changes are not applied in 1 month time
May 06 08:14:35 <X-Fade> And people are now able to upload system libs for instance, which breaks everything.
May 06 08:14:58 <RST38h> Also easy to check, if you have a list of base packages from Nokia
May 06 08:15:15 <X-Fade> So it is not to make it hard to upload, just some sanity checks really.
May 06 08:15:32 <RST38h> All this can be made invisible to the uploaders, no need for formal QA procedures
May 06 08:15:51 <X-Fade> Uploading an application which doesn't install doesn't make much sense.
May 06 08:16:26 <X-Fade> And then there is testing the actual application.
May 06 08:18:10 <johnx> jeez, it's almost like you're trying to hit the reliability of a mobile phone OS or something :P
May 06 08:19:02 <X-Fade> johnx: Well, isn't that the eventual goal anyway? Now we are targetting tech people, but shouldn't we be targetting your mother in step 5?
May 06 08:19:34 <johnx> hey, stay away from my mom. you're not even my real dad :P
May 06 08:19:52 <X-Fade> Heh ;)
May 06 08:20:19 <X-Fade> Just so say, we need to start somewhere to make it easy for the real end-users.
May 06 08:21:02 <johnx> I'm all for it, just make real sure you don't chase away the power users and devs :)
May 06 08:21:17 <X-Fade> And if someone managed to promote a sdl lib which breaks all games, this kind of kills the experience for most people.
May 06 08:21:48 <X-Fade> johnx: Powerusers should just enable extras-devel and be living on the edge always?
May 06 08:22:00 <RST38h> X-Fade: There are basically two ways to do it
May 06 08:22:35 <RST38h> X-Fade: You can either let people upload more or less freely, run some automatic checks, and leave the rest to the Tentacled One
May 06 08:23:28 <RST38h> X-Fade: Or you can assume Tentacled One's duties yourself (or delegate to some QA cabal) in which case the Extras will stay sparkling clean but people will start creating their own repos again
May 06 08:23:54 <X-Fade> RST38h: Well there are multiple levels in this.
May 06 08:24:01 <johnx> X-Fade, I think you might have something with a three tiered system actually. devel -> testing -> extras. extras-devel is scary/b0rken enough that even power users stay away
May 06 08:24:13 <RST38h> X-Fade: So it seems, but there is a threshold anyway
May 06 08:24:16 <timeless_mbp> hey, does vpnc still work in mer?
May 06 08:24:25 <X-Fade> Developers would like their application to be available for everybody, and extras will be enabled by default.
May 06 08:24:40 <RST38h> X-Fade: And whatever level you take, it will fall either above or below the threshold
May 06 08:25:05 <X-Fade> If a developer doesn't care, he can provide the package any way he likes. He will not get the same amount of downloads.
May 06 08:25:27 <RST38h> X-Fade: Well, my guess is that with the open source stuff where developers are not making money, most of them will not care.
May 06 08:25:41 <johnx> or certainly care a lot less
May 06 08:25:44 <X-Fade> RST38h: You have to think of what the goal is of a developer.
May 06 08:25:44 <RST38h> X-Fade: they simply won't got with the Extras distribution
May 06 08:25:55 <X-Fade> If you develop software, you want people to use it?
May 06 08:26:01 <RST38h> X-Fade: I *am* a developer, I know what my goal is.
May 06 08:26:04 <X-Fade> Or do you only develop for yourself?
May 06 08:26:18 <X-Fade> Those are 2 completly different goals.
May 06 08:26:22 <glass> X-Fade: some, make that many, oss devs don't really care about if anyone uses it or not
May 06 08:26:23 <RST38h> X-Fade: And, as a developer, I can assure you that most free software developers do it for themselves
May 06 08:26:28 <johnx> X-Fade, there are shades of grey in between
May 06 08:26:46 <glass> X-Fade: and that gets us to what sucks about certain open projects
May 06 08:26:53 <RST38h> X-Fade: And of course they all love other people using it, but not to the point of eating red tape
May 06 08:26:57 <johnx> "I'd like to share, but if you make this too hard, then I'll post it on a forum and get on to the next cool hack."
May 06 08:27:10 <X-Fade> johnx: Well, if everybody can download it easily, it certainly is an advantage for the developer?
May 06 08:27:24 <RST38h> X-Fade: Only if they pay money :)
May 06 08:27:38 <RST38h> X-Fade: Besides, they can download it just as easily from his own repo
May 06 08:27:41 <X-Fade> A developer who doesn't care about people using it, will probably not make great software anyway?
May 06 08:27:47 <glass> some devs like that people use their soft even if it doesn't make money. just having users is motivating
May 06 08:27:50 <RST38h> X-Fade: not true
May 06 08:27:59 <RST38h> X-Fade: there are examples against that
May 06 08:28:20 <X-Fade> RST38h: Why would you even publish your software if you don't care about people using it?
May 06 08:28:23 <johnx> X-Fade, there's a certain amount of effort devs are willing to go through, and when the threshold is too high, they give up
May 06 08:28:24 <glass> RST38h: name a few
May 06 08:28:31 <RST38h> X-Fade: Because I have written it already
May 06 08:28:34 <RST38h> glass: FAR
May 06 08:28:44 <RST38h> X-Fade: Why not publish it?
May 06 08:28:48 <glass> far?
May 06 08:28:51 <X-Fade> RST38h: Yeah, but why do you want people to use it?
May 06 08:28:55 <RST38h> glass: Search for far manager
May 06 08:29:10 <RST38h> X-Fade: I do not *want* people to use it, I *let* people use it
May 06 08:29:19 <RST38h> X-Fade: See the difference?
May 06 08:29:28 <glass> RST38h: far managers site is built so that it seems they want people to use it(care about it)
May 06 08:29:42 <RST38h> glass: Look at the date the last update came out
May 06 08:29:49 <johnx> just look at all the stuff that's already on ITT but not extras
May 06 08:29:56 <X-Fade> Everytime you publish something, you do an active thing.
May 06 08:30:07 <RST38h> X-Fade: Again not true
May 06 08:30:11 <johnx> piles of qwerty12's stuff was there (he did put it in extras once that got easier). Tear is ITT only for now
May 06 08:30:15 <glass> RST38h: ach.  dunno. the app still looks like he cared that people would use it
May 06 08:30:23 <RST38h> X-Fade: You mistake the act of putting somethign online with attention whoring
May 06 08:30:24 <X-Fade> johnx: Those are code drops labeled, worksforme but beware ;)
May 06 08:30:33 <RST38h> glass: It is an excellent app
May 06 08:30:41 <RST38h> glass: Not being very much cared for though
May 06 08:30:48 <johnx> X-Fade, and they're more stable than some other things in extras ;)
May 06 08:31:18 <X-Fade> johnx: Well then people can install it from there.
May 06 08:31:34 <RST38h> X-Fade: They can, destroying the idea of a single repo
May 06 08:31:35 <X-Fade> But they will go to some warnings before installing in Fremantle.
May 06 08:31:52 * RST38h has no problem with clicking on a warning
May 06 08:31:52 <johnx> exactly. because those devs 1) wanted people to use their software, but 2) didn't want to put in the effort to push to extras or extras-devel
May 06 08:31:57 <X-Fade> RST38h: Well if you care about that, then you should upload to that single repo.
May 06 08:32:12 <RST38h> X-Fade: Care about what? A single repo? I do not
May 06 08:32:15 <X-Fade> Again, this is not about makeing it harder to upload. Just to get a better quality end result.
May 06 08:32:23 <RST38h> X-Fade: It is a nice-to-have, not a must-have
May 06 08:32:58 <johnx> X-Fade, ok, I get that. It was just a friendly suggestion from me to be careful down this road not to put in any more roadblocks than absolutely necessary
May 06 08:33:05 <X-Fade> johnx: Those are the same developers that drop of the net regularly.
May 06 08:33:11 <RST38h> X-Fade: Anyways, just to make my opinion known to the higher ups:
May 06 08:33:26 <RST38h> X-Fade: 1) Implement some common sense automated checks and remove stuff that does not pass them
May 06 08:33:43 <X-Fade> RST38h: To me is as high as you get and I'm at the same level as you are ;)
May 06 08:33:53 <RST38h> X-Fade: 2) If a trusted 3rd party repo is absolutely needed, create a new one or promote packages into existing Nokia repo for 3rd party software
May 06 08:34:08 <X-Fade> RST38h: This is maemo.org, not Nokia.
May 06 08:34:30 <X-Fade> We're not talking about Ovi store here.
May 06 08:34:35 <RST38h> X-Fade: Well, you can always either talk to Nokia about it or create a new repo
May 06 08:34:50 <woglinde> hi
May 06 08:34:53 <RST38h> X-Fade: Oh, I was talking about that weird 3rd party software repo that Nokia already has enabled
May 06 08:34:57 <X-Fade> RST38h: This has nothing to do with nokia. It is what we want.
May 06 08:34:59 <RST38h> X-Fade: The one with skype etc
May 06 08:35:15 <X-Fade> RST38h: Those are Nokia commercial partners. Nothing to do with maemo.org
May 06 08:35:40 <RST38h> X-Fade: But nothing prevents Nokia from creating a free subbranch of that repo and adding checked packages there
May 06 08:35:58 <RST38h> X-Fade: It will be both technically and logically correct
May 06 08:36:04 <X-Fade> We, the community, get one repository on every device which is enabled by default.
May 06 08:36:08 <X-Fade> This is Extras.
May 06 08:36:31 <woglinde> *g*
May 06 08:36:40 <X-Fade> Every other repository we add can be for hard-core users, no problem.
May 06 08:37:28 <RST38h> X-Fade: Well, then leave only checked packages in Extras and create a new repo for all the advanced users that is disabled by default
May 06 08:37:41 <RST38h> X-Fade: Just *not* call it Extras-devel which is a terrible mess
May 06 08:37:48 <johnx> RST38h, extras-testing?
May 06 08:37:53 <RST38h> Extras-Community
May 06 08:37:57 <RST38h> or something like that
May 06 08:38:00 <X-Fade> RST38h: This is what extras-testing is proposed for?
May 06 08:38:27 <RST38h> X-Fade: You have to expect that most packages will be stored in that repo permanently, so no "testing" in the name
May 06 08:38:44 <RST38h> X-Fade: I.e. it will completely replace the current Extras
May 06 08:39:09 <X-Fade> RST38h: It won't as 99% of our downloads will still be from Extras ;)
May 06 08:39:35 <RST38h> X-Fade: It will, you will see
May 06 08:39:48 <RST38h> X-Fade: See discussion above
May 06 08:40:18 <X-Fade> RST38h: Community members are such a small drop in the total users count.
May 06 08:40:29 <woglinde> *g*
May 06 08:41:06 <RST38h> X-Fade: It does not matter really. What matters is that once you fence off Extras, developers will stop trying to get there
May 06 08:41:10 <X-Fade> Most people will just download through the Application Manager, maemo.nokia.com or downloads catalog.
May 06 08:41:26 <RST38h> So, in order to keep developers in a single repo, you will need a permanent alternative to Extras
May 06 08:42:06 <RST38h> Whether this alternative will be created by maemo.org or some rogue developer is up to you :)
May 06 08:42:20 <X-Fade> RST38h: Most developers are not like you ;)
May 06 08:42:28 <RST38h> X-Fade: Oh, really? :)
May 06 08:42:43 <RST38h> X-Fade: Check out penguinbait's rants on ITT :)
May 06 08:42:57 <X-Fade> Anyway, Fremantle will have signed downloads presented differently.
May 06 08:43:04 <johnx> place your bets now gentlemen :)
May 06 08:43:08 * RST38h is actually quite sane as far as averages go =)
May 06 08:44:10 <RST38h> Actually, creating a new repo called Stars and enabling it by default in Fremantle may satisfy everybody
May 06 08:44:50 <johnx> actually, in my mind, that would make a lot more sense
May 06 08:44:58 <RST38h> Yep
May 06 08:45:18 <RST38h> It will both look nice to the end users and create a sense of elitism for those who DO get into it
May 06 08:45:21 <johnx> for people who want to push the polish of their app, they have something to shoot for
May 06 08:45:28 <RST38h> Exactly
May 06 08:45:39 <X-Fade> Well, I think that Extr can easily serve that role. Without to many hassle for developers.
May 06 08:45:40 <johnx> for people who just want to share what they have and move on, Extras
May 06 08:46:18 <RST38h> X-Fade: You won't be able to do what you want to accomplish without hassle
May 06 08:46:49 <RST38h> X-Fade: And even if you have got a plan, some more managerial-minded characters will insist on lots of red tape
May 06 08:47:07 <X-Fade> RST38h: We're talking about things like automatic time delayed promotion.
May 06 08:47:19 <X-Fade> And only removing the package when there are serious problems.
May 06 08:47:42 <RST38h> X-Fade: Ah, automatic would be ok, but the mailing list was talking abuot a QA team, 10 approvals, with even a single non-approval disabling promotion
May 06 08:48:05 <X-Fade> RST38h: 10 approvals or time delayed if nobody tested it.
May 06 08:48:21 <X-Fade> So it will only speed promotion up if people test it.
May 06 08:48:21 <RST38h> X-Fade: time delayed by what amount?
May 06 08:48:29 <X-Fade> RST38h: to be determined
May 06 08:48:40 <RST38h> X-Fade: But this is the important part
May 06 08:48:45 <johnx> RST38h, 1 miiiiillion years
May 06 08:49:16 <X-Fade> RST38h: Say a 2 week timeout. And when x amount of people thumb up, direct.
May 06 08:49:24 <RST38h> X-Fade: It is a difference between "ok, lemme upload it and wait" and "lemme just publish it on ITT while it is waiting for approval"
May 06 08:49:31 <timeless_mbp> what happens if 1 person thumbs down? :)
May 06 08:49:32 <X-Fade> And we can even build up a certain trust level.
May 06 08:49:48 <X-Fade> timeless_mbp: We can check which person it is ;)
May 06 08:50:13 <X-Fade> And if one person flags down, the debmaster needs to check it himself.
May 06 08:50:22 <X-Fade> Everything else will just go through?
May 06 08:50:26 <RST38h> X-Fade: Does not sound like a good idea, really. Sounds like an attempt to break something not broken
May 06 08:50:55 <X-Fade> RST38h: It is just to stabilize it a bit.
May 06 08:51:03 <RST38h> X-Fade: So I would suggest a new repo called Stars and enabled by default, with promotion process up to public consideration
May 06 08:51:15 <X-Fade> If someone promotes a broken package now, Extras is instantly broken.
May 06 08:51:30 <RST38h> Well, automatically check package dependencies
May 06 08:51:49 <X-Fade> RST38h: Sure, but what about a broken post-install?
May 06 08:51:53 <RST38h> And contents too, so that it does not overwrite other packages
May 06 08:52:07 <X-Fade> Yeah, so there are multiple things to test.
May 06 08:52:13 <RST38h> X-Fade: well, I can suggets a way to check THAT too, but it is messy
May 06 08:52:27 <RST38h> X-Fade: So in this case it may be better to just let it be
May 06 08:52:41 <X-Fade> And then there is: drains battery in 4 hours because it installs a deamon.
May 06 08:53:05 <RST38h> And then there is: shows nude women every 15 minutes
May 06 08:53:06 <X-Fade> Things like that can be spotted by manual installs.
May 06 08:53:10 <X-Fade> RST38h: ;)
May 06 08:53:19 <RST38h> And then there is: contains the lyrics of Jignle Bells (copyrighted)
May 06 08:53:44 <RST38h> And then there is: calls maemo community council member an idiot, in high-pitched gay voice
May 06 08:53:52 <johnx> RST38h, which app is that, with the nude women? I need to test that ... to protect the users...
May 06 08:53:58 <RST38h> Are you gonna filter THEm ALL? :)
May 06 08:54:25 <RST38h> johnx: ! Here is the first business model for NIT software =)
May 06 08:54:52 <johnx> pygtkPicturesOfGirls?
May 06 08:55:02 <RST38h> Was that AStorm who insisted that selfless people can't be evil? :)
May 06 08:55:14 <RST38h> johnx: hell, I was just going to suggest python for that =)
May 06 08:55:17 <suihkulokki> Isn't microb the app with all the nude women?
May 06 08:55:49 <johnx> please feed a crumpled up 5 dollar bill into the sd card slot to continue
May 06 08:58:18 <RST38h> X-Fade: BTW, if you want to make sure nobody pushes a virus through postinst, let me know
May 06 08:58:42 <johnx> RST38h, you've developed a turing oracle?
May 06 08:58:43 <RST38h> X-Fade: there is an automatic way to check for that although you may not like the complexity of it
May 06 08:58:53 <RST38h> johnx: ah it is way simpler
May 06 08:59:35 <X-Fade> Well we have no kill switch to kill the app on a user's device.
May 06 08:59:48 <X-Fade> The only thing we can do is remove it from the repo.
May 06 08:59:48 <RST38h> you do have it
May 06 09:00:05 <X-Fade> Or offer an updated version ;)
May 06 09:00:06 <RST38h> push a system update that diables the app
May 06 09:00:11 <RST38h> or that
May 06 09:00:29 <X-Fade> But that still requires the user to do something.
May 06 09:00:58 <RST38h> yea, requires him to run system update
May 06 09:01:14 <RST38h> or install it from app manager
May 06 09:03:54 <timeless_mbp> suihkulokki: yep
May 06 09:04:07 <johnx> I hope it doesn't reach the point where we're putting out fires like that already... :/
May 06 09:04:51 <timeless_mbp> johnx: if you want to test, try http://timeless.justdave.net/stress/stress.html
May 06 09:05:29 <timeless_mbp> X-Fade: you have to offer a package 'maemo-blacklist'
May 06 09:05:44 <timeless_mbp> which is updated periodically and conflicts with other packages which are blacklisted
May 06 09:05:47 <johnx> to see how the browser deals with scrolling huge images?
May 06 09:06:11 <timeless_mbp> johnx: well... to see how the browser deals w/ a lot of images
May 06 09:06:12 <johnx> timeless_mbp, not sure how apt would behave in that situation
May 06 09:06:18 <timeless_mbp> (i.e. running out of memory)
May 06 09:06:25 <X-Fade> timeless_mbp: Indeed, that can be one solution.
May 06 09:06:50 <johnx> you could probably do some really "clever" apt pinning to make the conflicting app always chosen
May 06 09:07:25 <timeless_mbp> you need to make sure it works of course
May 06 09:08:46 <johnx> wow, that's a lot of images
May 06 09:09:14 <johnx> keeping firefox plenty busy on my desktop
May 06 09:10:45 <suihkulokki> we already trust that apt doesn't remove osso-software-version I guess the maemo-blacklist would be protected the same way
May 06 09:11:11 <X-Fade> suihkulokki: Well is can remove o-s-v easily ;)
May 06 09:11:16 <johnx> you mean as soon as someone uses apt-get instead of h-a-m it's history?
May 06 09:12:06 <suihkulokki> ah, so o-s-v is just to protect endusers, not geeks :)
May 06 09:12:27 <X-Fade> suihkulokki: yep. there is an o-s-v-unlocked for geeks too.
May 06 09:13:25 <johnx> timeless_mbp, will check how tear handles that in a couple minutes
May 06 09:13:47 <timeless_mbp> johnx: grading system 1. Fail if device reboots
May 06 09:14:04 <timeless_mbp> i've killed a number of boxes running various os's w/ that page
May 06 09:14:25 <timeless_mbp> a bunch of phones, an oqo, a fbsd box (years ago)
May 06 09:14:57 <RST38h> johnx: I do not consider this a catastrophe really
May 06 09:15:32 <RST38h> johnx: As long as there is a way to quickly remedy any problems, should be fine
May 06 09:16:05 <johnx> yeah, not a big deal, just had to comment about trusting apt not to remove o-s-v
May 06 09:16:53 <RST38h> suihkulokki: Funny, I have just removed osso-software-version with apt =)
May 06 09:17:41 <X-Fade> RST38h: Only matters if you want software updates ;)
May 06 09:17:46 <RST38h> johnx: It can probably be protected by some means, for example it can create some files in postinst that apt won't know about
May 06 09:17:49 <X-Fade> *firmare
May 06 09:18:00 <X-Fade> Yeah, great typing today... ;)
May 06 09:18:11 <RST38h> X-Fade: see above =)
May 06 09:18:12 <johnx> RST38h, there's easier ways, but it's mildly intrusive (read: annoying) to power users
May 06 09:18:30 <RST38h> johnx: yea, but o=s=v I can live with, personally
May 06 09:18:50 <RST38h> johnx: As long as there is an unofficial way to get around it in dire need of course :)
May 06 09:19:04 <johnx> RST38h, you just tell apt: always resolve deps in such a way that this package stays installed. It's called pinning
May 06 09:19:33 <RST38h> johnx: But THIS can be overridden with apt options, not?
May 06 09:19:56 <johnx> only if you're *very explicit* about what you want to do, which I belive is the goal
May 06 09:20:08 <johnx> right now it's set up so that apt will remove o-s-v at the drop of a hat
May 06 09:21:04 <johnx> to change the pinning you edit the config file -or- directly specify some really long-ass option on the apt command line
May 06 09:21:31 <RST38h> Should work then
May 06 09:21:41 <johnx> we were getting people on itt who knew how to use apt-get but were confused about why it wanted to remove o-s-v
May 06 09:21:54 <johnx> it would actually be nice if that was just a *little bit* harder :)
May 06 09:22:03 <RST38h> If people continue freaking it out, just create files in postinst
May 06 09:22:27 <RST38h> Then there truly won't be a way to kill it with apt
May 06 09:22:38 <johnx> RST38h, nah, that's intrusive beyond reason. Then you're just fighting users, not guiding them
May 06 09:22:52 <RST38h> johnx: it is just one spot, with good reasons for it
May 06 09:23:05 <RST38h> For this single spot, I have no problems
May 06 09:23:35 <johnx> right but "apt-get --I-really-want-to-break-my-shit install b0rken-package" should be enough I think
May 06 09:24:15 <johnx> no need to have that succeed then have some postinst go and remove b0rken-package after it's already messed things up
May 06 09:25:34 <johnx> plus it's nice to not bastardize apt more than is strictly necessary
May 06 09:26:21 <RST38h> Maybe...
May 06 09:26:40 <RST38h> of course nothing like this is gonna happen, we will just get Extras all redtaped =(
May 06 09:27:01 <johnx> eh, like rats from a sinking ship, jump into Mer. :D
May 06 09:27:28 <johnx> this is why they don't let me do marketing...
May 06 09:29:02 <RST38h> Mer isn't an exit strategy
May 06 09:29:42 <StsN801> off the plank, yarr!
May 06 09:29:52 <dl9pf> StsN801: moin
May 06 09:30:16 <johnx> RST38h, correct, but I couldn't resist the pun :>
May 06 09:46:17 * RST38h is trying to fix a test case =(
May 06 10:01:25 <StsN801> http://www.pocketables.net/2009/05/smartq-7-internet-tablet-mid-revealed.html
May 06 10:02:16 <X-Fade> StsN801: Photoshop release?
May 06 10:06:46 <StsN801> X-Fade, fullscreen webbrowser prolly
May 06 10:07:05 <X-Fade> StsN801: No, I meant that the whole device is rendered.
May 06 10:07:24 <StsN801> their q7 does have a 7" lcd though
May 06 10:07:49 <StsN801> so there might be smth to their rendering
May 06 10:08:19 <StsN801> the q5 is surprisingly smooth and well designed
May 06 10:08:41 <StsN801> as is the box
May 06 10:20:44 <roope> 4500mAh is a big-ass battery.
May 06 10:20:57 <StsN801> yeah
May 06 10:21:33 <StsN801> im not sure its for more than couch surfing / laptop like use
May 06 10:21:56 <StsN801> the q5 has 2000mah
May 06 10:22:03 <roope> 7 inch for me is a dead size. If I want to couch surf, I get my 15" laptop.
May 06 10:22:25 <roope> Then again, 7 inch is awkward size to carry. It should be either bigger or then smaller.
May 06 10:22:30 <Shadow__X> its hard to find a good common ground
May 06 10:22:41 <Shadow__X> because as things get bigger just get a real laptop
May 06 10:22:46 <StsN801> my laptop gets too hot for couch surfing
May 06 10:23:03 <Shadow__X> personally i cant use a 7-10 inch laptop
May 06 10:23:20 <Shadow__X> i plan to get a macbook to replace everyday uses
May 06 10:23:21 <StsN801> a fully hackable 7" tablet is interesting though
May 06 10:23:32 <Shadow__X> and possible get a new tablet
May 06 10:47:39 <radic> where are the words for the auto completation stored?
May 06 11:09:06 <lcuk> roope, 7" is very nice size for a photo frame for your grandparents though
May 06 11:19:41 <RST38h> Stskeeps <--- stealthily trying to make me buy a SmartQ with all this stuff =)
May 06 11:20:32 <Stskeeps> RST38h: hehe
May 06 11:21:23 <lcuk> Stskeeps, its lacking in a few essential features tho
May 06 11:21:36 * lcuk really likes the basic idea :)
May 06 11:21:59 <Stskeeps> lcuk: like?
May 06 11:23:11 <lcuk> camera, keyboard
May 06 11:23:13 <Stskeeps> ah
May 06 11:23:14 <Stskeeps> yeah
May 06 11:27:16 <Robot101> Stskeeps: moo to you too :P
May 06 11:27:19 <Stskeeps> Robot101: sorry :)
May 06 11:27:33 <Stskeeps> lack of coffee and tab completion isn't good
May 06 11:28:56 <Robot101> :)
May 06 11:59:41 <xnt> FAIL: http://www.engadget.com/2009/05/06/smartq-7-is-an-internet-tablet-with-dedicated-fn/
May 06 12:00:39 <Stskeeps> uh. :P
May 06 12:00:45 <xnt>  :P
May 06 12:01:12 * xnt would take a 770 over this any day
May 06 12:01:24 <lcuk> wheres the Fn in that
May 06 12:01:34 <Stskeeps> xnt: i actually have a smartq 5 MID.
May 06 12:01:40 <Stskeeps> it's so hackable.
May 06 12:01:45 <lcuk> showoff!
May 06 12:02:08 <xnt> can it run, ume?
May 06 12:02:32 <Stskeeps> xnt: it runs ubuntu by standard, runs mer, etc
May 06 12:02:46 <Stskeeps> the screen on the Q7 is the same as on some Asus EEE
May 06 12:02:49 * xnt researches...
May 06 12:03:00 <Stskeeps> search SmartQ on iTT
May 06 12:03:56 <Stskeeps> but yeah, Fn key is a bit mysterious..
May 06 12:04:02 <xnt> 0.o
May 06 12:04:40 <Stskeeps> trust me, you'd take this one over a 770 ;)
May 06 12:04:44 <Stskeeps> (the q7)
May 06 12:04:51 <Stskeeps> except if you love your dpad :P
May 06 12:04:59 <xnt> ok :)
May 06 12:05:05 <xnt> is it x86?
May 06 12:05:08 <Stskeeps> no, arm
May 06 12:05:13 <Stskeeps> (the q5 i mean)
May 06 12:05:21 <xnt> so h ave you gotten mer on it?
May 06 12:05:24 <Stskeeps> yeah
May 06 12:05:27 <Stskeeps> the q7 is similar hw
May 06 12:05:28 <xnt> :)
May 06 12:06:10 <xnt> Run Fremantle on it :P, it has a gpu
May 06 12:06:21 <Stskeeps> yes, but no 3d drivers
May 06 12:06:28 <xnt> :(
May 06 12:06:29 <Stskeeps> get me a person with a samsung nda, heh
May 06 12:06:43 <xnt> lol
May 06 12:07:12 <xnt> http://fuckingnda.com/
May 06 12:07:20 <xnt> oh wait that doesn't work anymore :P
May 06 12:08:23 <xnt> how much is it?
May 06 12:08:39 * xnt reads http://www.engadget.com/2009/03/18/smartq-5-mid-scores-itself-ubuntu-a-ridiculously-low-price-tag/
May 06 12:08:52 <Stskeeps> 132$
May 06 12:08:59 <xnt> :)
May 06 12:09:04 * xnt might buy
May 06 12:09:11 <Stskeeps> .. yeah, if you can get it in the US
May 06 12:09:16 <Stskeeps> i got mine donated by the company
May 06 12:09:16 <xnt> how big is it?
May 06 12:09:30 <Stskeeps> tinier and lighter than a n800
May 06 12:09:33 <xnt> import?
May 06 12:09:33 <Stskeeps> but same screen size
May 06 12:09:55 <Stskeeps> yeah, so much import that i had to make a makeshift power plug convertor :P
May 06 12:10:12 * xnt might use this as a remote for his future lmce system
May 06 12:10:16 <xnt> :P
May 06 12:10:41 * xnt searches ebay
May 06 12:11:23 <xnt> http://cgi.ebay.com/SmartQ-5-MID-8GB-touchscreen-PMP-WiFi-Bluetooth_W0QQitemZ360151247991QQcmdZViewItemQQptZOther_MP3_Player_Accessories?hash=item53daafec77&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=72%3A1234|66%3A2|65%3A12|39%3A1|240%3A1318|301%3A1|293%3A1|294%3A50 ???
May 06 12:11:45 <xnt> Wait its chinese only?
May 06 12:12:00 <Stskeeps> with Mer? no
May 06 12:12:09 <Stskeeps> also, you can always open a terminal and edit the locale
May 06 12:12:17 <xnt> oh so default os = chinese
May 06 12:12:28 <xnt> keyboard?
May 06 12:12:38 <Stskeeps> no keyboard
May 06 12:12:46 <woglinde> wtf
May 06 12:12:51 <woglinde> sdk has no findutils
May 06 12:12:53 <xnt> :(  / :)
May 06 12:13:04 <xnt> what mlocate?
May 06 12:13:09 <xnt> or find?
May 06 12:13:26 * xnt <3 mlocate :P
May 06 12:13:44 <woglinde> mlocate wont work inside sdk
May 06 12:13:44 <xnt> very fast
May 06 12:13:52 <xnt> :(
May 06 12:14:00 <xnt> maemo 5 or 4?
May 06 12:14:28 <woglinde> hms
May 06 12:14:30 <woglinde> sdk+
May 06 12:14:32 <woglinde> okay
May 06 12:15:47 <xnt> ?
May 06 12:15:58 <woglinde> now it works
May 06 12:15:59 <xnt> http://maemo-sdk.garage.maemo.org/install.html this?
May 06 12:16:04 <xnt> ok :)
May 06 12:16:18 <woglinde> seems I was to fast
May 06 12:16:45 * xnt needs to go through maemo garage again, I haven't gone there in like a month
May 06 12:17:43 <lcuk> woglinde, in computing theres not such thing as too fast :P
May 06 12:17:59 <xnt> :P
May 06 12:18:00 <lcuk> you simply had lag
May 06 12:18:19 <woglinde> nono
May 06 12:18:26 <woglinde> ist okay
May 06 12:18:27 <woglinde> now
May 06 12:41:32 <andrewfblack> Hello
May 06 12:41:46 <brankinhu> World!
May 06 12:45:21 <andre__> eheh. got a first request to clone a bug report from internal to external instead of the other way round. nokia can be funny
May 06 12:45:31 <Stskeeps> hehe
May 06 12:46:01 <X-Fade> andre__: Can you try to make a case of moving all hildon and modest bugs to the public bugzilla?
May 06 12:46:14 <X-Fade> andre__: As they are public projects now :)
May 06 12:46:25 <Stskeeps> i concur
May 06 12:46:27 <Stskeeps> :P
May 06 12:46:34 <andre__> while i whole-heartly agree that that would be awesome, it's not that easy :-/
May 06 12:47:13 <X-Fade> andre__: No, I guess that will be hard. Although moving some parts to the public one should be doable.
May 06 12:47:42 <X-Fade> andre__: A rule like: public bugzilla by default, unless it contains sensitive info..
May 06 12:48:10 <andre__> e.g. it would require all involved people to also have accounts in bmo, and there will be comments added (e.g. from testing) that are not meant for public because they sometimes reveal infrastructure and/or hardware information :-/
May 06 12:48:34 <X-Fade> andre__: Things like, save button is insensitive when in this and this dialog... Should just be in the public one?
May 06 12:48:55 <andre__> of course, the issue itself is totally fine for public bugzilla
May 06 12:49:07 <andre__> but correctly *dealing* with the report will require huge changes in nokia's internal workflow
May 06 12:49:28 <andre__> but it might be a good time to start another push into that direction, yeah
May 06 12:49:37 <X-Fade> andre__: Well yeah, but they started to move on the path when they decided to open the code.
May 06 12:49:47 <X-Fade> andre__: You are open, or you aren't..
May 06 12:50:30 <andre__> it's not that black and white :)
May 06 12:50:48 <andre__> i totally agree with the aim
May 06 12:50:53 <andre__> but it's way more complicated :-/
May 06 12:51:13 <andre__> but yeah. time to push it again and get some people into thinking about this again.
May 06 12:51:19 <X-Fade> andre__: It would mean that device testing and things like that should be done somewhere else.
May 06 12:51:37 <andre__> ...which is currently well integrated in the internal bugtracker
May 06 12:52:15 <X-Fade> Yeah, well there needs to be a change anyway ;)
May 06 12:52:19 <andre__> +1
May 06 12:53:38 <andre__> definitely something for me to think about tonight again while having a beer. but you can imagine, every company has some people that are pushing to get more open, and some people that want to avoid any changes in their workflow ("it has always worked fine for us like this").
May 06 12:53:53 <lcuk> X-Fade, glad i caught you (but i might have to vanish) is it possible to get clean simple exports of certain kinds of data from the m.o (such as user avatars with actual userjpg style filenames instead of UID keys
May 06 12:54:01 <andre__> so sometimes argumentation must be well-prepared and show the advantages (the latter is very important)
May 06 12:54:47 <X-Fade> andre__: Well with starting to moving things in the open, higher management has already decided that things change. Hard to argue with that ;)
May 06 12:54:55 <andre__> well. i don't tell you anything new here. so conclusion: oh yeah, let me try to move it into the open. somehow. :)
May 06 12:55:18 <X-Fade> lcuk: For avatars it is hard as I don't think we have the originals.
May 06 12:55:19 <andre__> higher management *accepted* it because some developers pushed this, that's my impression
May 06 12:55:33 <X-Fade> andre__: Well in any case, it happened.
May 06 12:55:40 <andre__> yupp, and that's a good first step
May 06 12:55:49 <X-Fade> andre__: So now things need to be adjusted to make sense :)
May 06 12:56:20 <lcuk> X-Fade, but in the user list you already do a lookup to get username, and then show his image - if there were a couple of out of the way places to get this raw information,  tell you what it will be easier to show you in the next few days
May 06 12:56:57 <lcuk> ive got a minimal version already, but its crabby and only shows a glimpse of what im aiming for :)
May 06 12:56:59 <X-Fade> lcuk: You would have to explain your use-case better...
May 06 12:57:21 <lcuk> ill show it you, picture worth a 1000 words and all that
May 06 12:57:38 <lcuk> not now tho lol
May 06 12:57:42 <lcuk> you will have to wait :P
May 06 12:58:01 <X-Fade> lcuk: story of my life ;)
May 06 12:59:15 <lcuk> ive apparantly lost the ability to take screenshots from within liqbase (code bug deep in the event handler goosed up) so i cant just run and show u
May 06 12:59:54 <RST38h> moo lcuk
May 06 13:00:13 <RST38h> Are you now retargeting liqbase as a custom interface to maemo.org? =)
May 06 13:01:08 <lcuk> now, was just wanting to get some images that meant something to us all :)
May 06 13:01:25 <lcuk> theres a few other exports as well i might want, but i might be able to do without exports
May 06 13:01:26 <RST38h> Ah
May 06 13:01:36 <lcuk> no ^
May 06 13:02:36 <lcuk> anyway, back to stuffs
May 06 13:02:40 <lcuk> \o
May 06 13:18:32 <GAN800> Yeesh, I can't believe what I'm seeing re non-free stuff on the lists. . . .
May 06 13:19:48 <GAN800> andre__, is that a new @nokia.com @maemo.org address. . . .
May 06 13:20:39 <andre__> GAN800, hmm? what do you refer to?
May 06 13:21:05 <GAN800> 1805
May 06 13:21:44 <andre__> nope. i just set the missing qa defaults for three bugs
May 06 13:21:52 <andre__> that address existed before already
May 06 13:22:54 <GAN800> ah, ok
May 06 13:23:46 <andre__> nothing worse than before ;-))
May 06 13:39:35 <RST38h> Whoever wants talk.maemo.org and/or maemo.org in a "dark" color scheme, vote here: https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=4467
May 06 13:39:46 <RST38h> And leave comments
May 06 13:53:00 <GAN800> X-Fade, just so you know, your reply to 4417 was, apparently, 'hostile'.
May 06 13:54:06 <X-Fade> GAN800: Huh?
May 06 13:55:46 <X-Fade> GAN800: I just asked if they could test something? Didn't close it with WORKSFORME or anything like that?
May 06 13:56:04 <GAN800> http://www.internettablettalk.com/forums/showpost.php?=284792&postcount=32
May 06 13:56:28 <X-Fade> GAN800: Doesn't work?
May 06 13:57:35 <GAN800> oops http://www.internettablettalk.com/forums/showpost.php?p=284792&postcount=32
May 06 14:00:54 <X-Fade> GAN800: Sigh..
May 06 14:01:31 <RST38h> X-Fade: Well, to be frank, the login system is somehow screwed up even withough web cache
May 06 14:02:25 <X-Fade> RST38h: Whatever device I use, PCs, other connections, friends and family. It always works for me.
May 06 14:02:32 <RST38h> X-Fade: Can't explain the exact behaviour at the moment, but it takes usually takes me several attempts to login from home (no cache)
May 06 14:02:40 <RST38h> X-Fade: Maybe I am doing something wrong?
May 06 14:03:00 <X-Fade> My guess is that the server doesn't send cache-invalidate headers./
May 06 14:03:16 <RST38h> X-Fade: Sometimes I have to manually add "s" to "http" for it to register my login
May 06 14:03:29 <X-Fade> RST38h: You should never have to do that.
May 06 14:03:40 <RST38h> X-Fade: You mean, the page gets stuck in the local FF cache?
May 06 14:03:46 <X-Fade> It probably means that you got a server side or client side cached page.
May 06 14:04:11 <RST38h> X-Fade: Well, then something is wrong on the server side
May 06 14:04:12 <X-Fade> And clicking through to some pages where you haven't been before would probably show that you in fact are logged in.
May 06 14:04:24 <RST38h> X-Fade: Yes, sometimes
May 06 14:04:49 <RST38h> But something is definitely wrong with logins
May 06 14:05:24 <X-Fade> Funny thing is, I really can't reproduce it at all.
May 06 14:05:29 <X-Fade> And believe me, I tried.
May 06 14:06:15 <X-Fade> I have multiple accounts, new, admin. Everything just works fine for me.
May 06 14:06:35 <RST38h> Maybe when it sees you it always logs you in by default? :)
May 06 14:07:19 <RST38h> BTW, this crap occurred to me with the "old" maemo.org design but then it went away after you fixed something
May 06 14:07:36 <X-Fade> No, I have lots of browsers installed and flushed caches. It always takes only one attempt and the page that comes up after login shows my name.
May 06 14:07:42 <RST38h> It resurfaced with the new design, although not sure if it has got the same cause
May 06 14:08:04 <GAN800> Ah, Texrat is in in it now.
May 06 14:08:18 * GAN800 tries not to shoot barbs in his direction.
May 06 14:08:41 <X-Fade> GAN800: But anyway, I've read the bug comment again. And I can't find anything hostile in there.
May 06 14:08:58 <GAN800> X-Fade, because there's not.
May 06 14:08:58 <RST38h> X-Fade: "WORKSFORME" keyword sounds hostile
May 06 14:09:05 * RST38h ducks
May 06 14:09:12 <X-Fade> RST38h: It is not in there?
May 06 14:09:25 <X-Fade> https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=4417#c1
May 06 14:09:29 <GAN800> qole took the poster's claim of 'smoking something' at face value.
May 06 14:10:09 <RST38h> now, that's childish
May 06 14:11:17 <X-Fade> Sad..
May 06 14:11:34 <X-Fade> And even worse for a council member.
May 06 14:11:57 <GAN800> itT is a mess these days
May 06 14:12:15 <GAN800> and Quim was proposing closing -community in favor of it. . . .
May 06 14:13:21 <RST38h> GAN: That will make one mess from two, good idea IMHO :)
May 06 14:14:18 <GAN800> You're losing an awful lot of good contributors moving it to itT
May 06 14:14:24 <X-Fade> I think we just need to add a 10 second counter after each post.
May 06 14:14:28 <GAN800> Whatever your personal bias is.
May 06 14:14:42 <X-Fade> And then ask if the person still wants to post  the comment ;)
May 06 14:14:44 <RST38h> Possibly, yes...
May 06 14:15:09 <RST38h> Maybe creating some limited kind of a gateway would work
May 06 14:15:16 <lardman> hey
May 06 14:15:26 <RST38h> Maybe gate -community postings into ITT but not the vice versa?
May 06 14:15:29 <RST38h> yo lardman
May 06 14:15:41 <lardman> hi RST38h
May 06 14:16:06 <GAN800> I want to see the vBulletin mailing list integration.
May 06 14:16:20 <X-Fade> I just think it is sad that people always have to add emotions into simple technical discussions.
May 06 14:16:30 <RST38h> X-Fade: People have agendas
May 06 14:16:53 <RST38h> X-Fade: And, when it comes to look-and-feel, things become highly subjective
May 06 14:17:24 <X-Fade> RST38h: "Can you test this" is not really something to get emotional about? :)
May 06 14:17:34 <RST38h> Now, what I do not understand, is why the website/forum guys do not just implement what forum members are asking them, at least in some limited form
May 06 14:18:07 <RST38h> X-Fade: I am afraid the login thing is so overheated because of the overall feeling about the website
May 06 14:18:41 <RST38h> X-Fade: it is interpreted as "bad layout, weird colors, all familiar pages lost, and I can't even login" or something like that
May 06 14:19:04 <X-Fade> RST38h: Waste of energy, really.
May 06 14:19:42 * RST38h vividly remembers some guy in Logan attacking an airline representative
May 06 14:20:28 <RST38h> After the airline lost his luggage and kept him in the terminal for two days. Approximately the same shit happsn on itt
May 06 14:21:27 <woglinde> rst was he shoot down?
May 06 14:22:18 <woglinde> args maemo python has not xml.minidom
May 06 14:23:17 <RST38h> woglinde: naaah, it was before 9/11
May 06 14:34:18 <digidietze> Does anybody know how I can reach a webmaster of maemo.org?
May 06 14:34:39 <X-Fade> digidietze: I have an idea, yes ;)
May 06 14:35:30 <digidietze> I left a post on the Developer forum about pic uploading two days ago
May 06 14:36:00 <digidietze> but have got no hint or help yet
May 06 14:36:19 <X-Fade> digidietze: Let me look it up.
May 06 14:36:35 <digidietze> Great, thanks!
May 06 14:36:51 <lardman> digidietze: webmaster@ ...?
May 06 14:37:00 <X-Fade> digidietze: Tip: always just state your problem in your mail.
May 06 14:37:01 <lardman> worked for me anyway a few times
May 06 14:37:08 <X-Fade> Not "where can I find the webmaster" :)
May 06 14:37:16 <X-Fade> *in your subject.
May 06 14:37:31 <digidietze> OK. Got it.
May 06 14:37:56 <X-Fade> digidietze: But it is a known problem and I have asked bergie to look at it.
May 06 14:38:35 <lardman> anyone seen an RDS manipulation lib in the new beta release?
May 06 14:38:41 <digidietze> That's news. I thought there were only two
May 06 14:38:44 <lardman> s/beta/SDK beta
May 06 14:39:52 <X-Fade> digidietze: I think the index field which contains the screenshot names for those applications is corrupted, but we have to find out what it is exactly.
May 06 14:41:13 <digidietze> It might have helped if there had been a confirmation about the problem on bugs.maemo.org; I would not have inquired further
May 06 14:42:56 <X-Fade> digidietze: Well, one tip there too. Please add only one problem per bug.
May 06 14:43:46 <X-Fade> digidietze: User Login Quirks (and Upload Broken) is not a good way to describe the problem.
May 06 14:44:08 <X-Fade> As those can easily be problems that need to be handled by different people.
May 06 14:44:44 <X-Fade> But anyway, the login problem is another bug already and is being worked on.
May 06 14:44:59 <X-Fade> The upload problem is something that still needs to be looked at.
May 06 14:46:28 <RST38h> android powered netbooks. mghm
May 06 14:46:44 <woglinde> rst yes
May 06 14:46:50 <GeneralAntilles> X-Fade, are you abusing volunteers again? ;)
May 06 14:46:52 <woglinde> rumors since some time
May 06 14:46:58 <GeneralAntilles> Who the hell would want to use Android in that formfactor.
May 06 14:47:06 <X-Fade> GeneralAntilles: Huh?
May 06 14:47:20 * RST38h has no idea either. It sounds strange
May 06 14:47:22 <GeneralAntilles> Setting aside the question of "Who the hell would want to use Android?" of course.
May 06 14:47:26 <GeneralAntilles> X-Fade, exactly. :P
May 06 14:47:39 <RST38h> At the very least, this thing would have to have SOME office apps
May 06 14:47:45 <X-Fade> GeneralAntilles: Hey, that was my line. Don't steal that ;)
May 06 14:48:00 <woglinde> http://www.betavine.net/bvportal/web/guest/mobile_linux/blog
May 06 14:48:32 <Mikho> would someone know a solution for this? I'm trying to compile third party code, but the make process requires a stubs-32.h -file in /usr/include/gnu folder. The file is included in the libc6-dev package, but only in i386 version. The armel package doesn't have it. What can I do?
May 06 14:49:33 <RST38h> See what version of libc and gcc your armel sdk has?
May 06 14:50:10 * RST38h checks what this file is about
May 06 14:52:13 <RST38h> Mikho: Ok, your code has got -m32 or some other ia32 specific option in its makefiles
May 06 14:52:37 <RST38h> Mikho: You have to remove it, possibly by explicitely telling make what architecture you are compiling it for
May 06 14:52:55 <digidietze> The bug no. #4383 mentioned in the forum post was actually reported by someone else. I just added a comment to confirm it
May 06 14:53:49 <GAN800> digidietze, be sure to add a vote to bugs you want to confirm.
May 06 14:54:29 <X-Fade> digidietze: Hmm yeah, your bug is duplicate to #4383.
May 06 14:55:09 <X-Fade> digidietze: And the other part is duplicate to: https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=4417 probably ;)
May 06 14:56:27 <Mikho> hmm
May 06 14:56:32 <lopz> hi
May 06 14:56:37 <Mikho> the problem is just it's not my code
May 06 14:56:57 <Mikho> but I'll try to search for the -m32
May 06 14:57:36 <digidietze> I did vote for the bug 4383 as soon as I saw it. And yes, you are right about multiple bug reporting.
May 06 14:58:07 <X-Fade> digidietze: Do you mind if I close your bug as duplicate and follow up on the others?
May 06 14:58:28 <X-Fade> That way we have 2 separate bugs tracking these issues.
May 06 15:00:55 <digidietze> I thought I was first ... and there might be some information in the posts of this bug (4386)
May 06 15:01:42 <X-Fade> Yeah, but it is also a mess talking about all kinds of things ;)
May 06 15:02:18 <X-Fade> And if you experience the problem with logging in to bugzilla too, then I'm certain that the problem is at you end.
May 06 15:02:37 <X-Fade> Because that is a completely difference service, running on a different server.
May 06 15:03:03 <digidietze> OK, maybe I connected dots that are unrelated
May 06 15:03:04 * GeneralAntilles doesn't feel like setting up a computer to work on the Bugzilla templates.
May 06 15:05:19 <digidietze> Feel free to close the bug. I'm comfortable with knowing that help is on the way :)
May 06 15:05:35 <X-Fade> digidietze: You should receive a bunch of bugzilla mails ;)
May 06 15:06:37 <GeneralAntilles> I was watching some poor lady tote around a Kindle yesterday at the Apple store
May 06 15:06:46 <GeneralAntilles> Seems like an awful lot of effort to carry an ebook reader.
May 06 15:07:31 <X-Fade> GeneralAntilles: Wait until you go on holiday and need to take about 3kg books with you like I do.
May 06 15:07:42 <GeneralAntilles> Hehe
May 06 15:07:43 <lardman> X-Fade: +1 to that
May 06 15:07:47 <GeneralAntilles> Hooray, tablet.
May 06 15:07:48 * RST38h uses a cell phone for that
May 06 15:07:59 <lardman> X-Fade: I'd be a bit worried about someone borrowing it if I leave it on the beach though
May 06 15:08:06 <GeneralAntilles> I've managed to get digital copies of most of my textbooks for the past 3 years.
May 06 15:08:09 * RST38h uses damn cell phone for pretty much everything nowadays, the thing even got chew marks on it
May 06 15:09:29 <GeneralAntilles> lol, and the Kindle just got bigger.
May 06 15:13:38 <GeneralAntilles> lcuk, chew your nails much? :P
May 06 15:14:43 <digidietze> My bugzilla problem is probably browser-related. Firefox worked fine. It smells like a cache problem of Opera.
May 06 15:15:05 <X-Fade> digidietze: Well, it can be that we don't send the correct cache invalidation headers.
May 06 15:15:21 <X-Fade> digidietze: But both FF and IE have no problems for me.
May 06 15:15:33 <X-Fade> digidietze: And my tablet works fine too.
May 06 15:16:41 <GeneralAntilles> Is there any way we could make maemo.org logins somewhat persistent?
May 06 15:16:51 <X-Fade> GeneralAntilles: They are?
May 06 15:16:55 <GeneralAntilles> I'm tired of having to login every time I want to heart/thumb something
May 06 15:17:04 <X-Fade> GeneralAntilles: I never have to?
May 06 15:17:10 <Stskeeps> my impression is that they aren't either, not sure why
May 06 15:17:15 <GeneralAntilles> I'd love to be able to stay logged in for an appreciable amount of time.
May 06 15:17:25 <mikkov_> my login is very persistent
May 06 15:17:28 <GeneralAntilles> Moving between 3 machines regularly maybe doesn't help?
May 06 15:17:30 <X-Fade> Do you clear cache close?
May 06 15:17:31 <RST38h> X-Fade: I also have to relogin at random seemingly
May 06 15:17:43 <X-Fade> There is a timout of a few days.
May 06 15:17:48 <X-Fade> Or when your ip changes, I guess.
May 06 15:17:54 <X-Fade> Which mine never does.
May 06 15:18:06 <RST38h> X-Fade: I do access the site from multiple IPs (work, home, mobile, etc)
May 06 15:18:07 <GeneralAntilles> IP hasn't been changing, and it's definitely more often than once a day most of the time.
May 06 15:18:23 <RST38h> X-Fade: Can you just store a cookie at each client and use that?
May 06 15:18:33 <RST38h> ITT seems to do that pretty well, too
May 06 15:18:56 <GeneralAntilles> I don't really have any troubles on Bugzilla either.
May 06 15:19:15 <X-Fade> Bugzilla cookie expires in 2038 ;)
May 06 15:19:39 * RST38h wonders if NITs will still be around
May 06 15:19:44 <mikkov_> my bugzilla login times out in couple of hours
May 06 15:20:09 <GeneralAntilles> Oops, Reggie used "TALK"
May 06 15:21:18 <Stskeeps> uh
May 06 15:21:19 <X-Fade> the TALK even ;)
May 06 15:21:49 * GeneralAntilles files a few bugs.
May 06 15:21:52 <Stskeeps> .seen qwerty12
May 06 15:22:06 <RST38h> BTW another weird feature about logins:
May 06 15:22:16 <RST38h> talk.maemo.org and maemo.org seem to have different records of me
May 06 15:22:23 <X-Fade> Sure.
May 06 15:22:29 <X-Fade> Different host
May 06 15:22:30 <RST38h> talk. reports me as "fms", maemo.org shows my full name
May 06 15:23:11 <GeneralAntilles> RST38h, vBulletin doesn't have you fullname in its account info
May 06 15:23:24 <GeneralAntilles> The accounts are separate from maemo.org's
May 06 15:23:24 <RST38h> ok, so it is a different database of users?
May 06 15:23:30 <RST38h> I see
May 06 15:23:31 <GeneralAntilles> Same as the itT database.
May 06 15:23:45 <GeneralAntilles> X-Fade, header TALK link can change.
May 06 15:23:48 <X-Fade> Just a different skin on top of itt.
May 06 15:24:00 <X-Fade> GeneralAntilles: Let's wait a day so every dns has been updated.
May 06 15:24:14 <GeneralAntilles> OK
May 06 15:24:32 <X-Fade> Don't want more angry people ;)
May 06 15:24:37 <RST38h> "Firefox has detected that the server is redirecting the request for this address in a way that will never complete." <-- from itt
May 06 15:25:02 <mikkov_> ^
May 06 15:25:32 <X-Fade> Reggie is just switching over, give him a few minutes ;)
May 06 15:26:05 <RST38h> ah
May 06 15:26:10 <GeneralAntilles> But we want it now! ;)
May 06 15:26:16 <mikkov_> yeah, now it's completely borked :)
May 06 15:27:20 <RST38h> General: To complain about how it did not work 30 seconds ago? =)
May 06 15:29:16 <RST38h> Hmmm...RTComm and Media are now developed at Bangalore?
May 06 15:31:37 <X-Fade> RST38h: Could be, there are a lot of job offerings there too?
May 06 15:33:01 <RST38h> Yep, almost exclusively there at the moment
May 06 15:34:23 <RST38h> There is just one offering for US (Mountain View) which seems to deal with supporting exteranl parties (Adobe? =))
May 06 15:34:38 <GeneralAntilles> Reggie really does kick ass at Bugzilla
May 06 15:35:08 <GeneralAntilles> Whenever we put together those Bugzilla report cards I'm giving him an "A+++++ would buy from again"
May 06 15:38:06 <RST38h> cannot convert parameter 1 from 'int' to 'U32'
May 06 15:38:32 <RST38h> cannot convert parameter 2 from 'U16' to 'U32'  <--- gcc went into bullshitting mode
May 06 15:40:50 <sjgadsby> Grr. This computer is too slow.
May 06 15:43:25 <GeneralAntilles> sjgadsby, story of my life lately.
May 06 15:43:51 <sjgadsby> That reminds me, how is your leaky Mac repair/replacement going?
May 06 15:45:54 <GeneralAntilles> sjgadsby, dropped it off at the Apple store yesterday
May 06 15:46:24 <GeneralAntilles> They gave me a parts list that totals out over $3000, so I called the customer relations guy yesterday to ask about a replacement again.
May 06 15:46:36 <GeneralAntilles> Hopefully he'll call me back at some point today.
May 06 15:46:48 <sjgadsby> Sheesh.
May 06 15:47:09 <sjgadsby> Here's hoping you just get a new machine.
May 06 15:47:11 <GeneralAntilles> I apparently copied down his extension incorrectly, and there are three people by that name at Apple.
May 06 15:47:27 <GeneralAntilles> Yeah, here's hoping
May 06 15:47:52 <GeneralAntilles> I can't imagine they'd really prefer replacing the CPU assembly, motherboard, power supply, and case over just giving me a new machine.
May 06 15:48:25 <sjgadsby> Agreed. The repair doesn't sound to be worth their time or money.
May 06 15:48:36 <ShadowJK> GeneralAntilles, what would they not replace?
May 06 15:48:40 <RST38h> Get a Gateway!
May 06 15:48:45 * RST38h ducks, then hides quickly
May 06 15:48:53 <GeneralAntilles> Yeah, unfortunately the people in the store aren't enabled to do shit, apparently.
May 06 15:49:17 <GeneralAntilles> ShadowJK, because the CSR guy didn't authorize a replacement, he authorized a repair.
May 06 15:49:50 <ShadowJK> No I mean, what's left to replace after all that... harddrive and ram?
May 06 15:50:26 <GeneralAntilles> Graphics cards, and a lot of little internal bits and pieces (fans, etc.) but, yeah, not much.
May 06 15:50:46 <GeneralAntilles> s/cards/card/
May 06 15:50:46 <infobot> GeneralAntilles meant: Graphics card, and a lot of little internal bits and pieces (fans, etc.) but, yeah, not much.
May 06 15:51:01 <ShadowJK> Oh I thought the fans would count as part of case :-)
May 06 15:51:17 <GeneralAntilles> Nah, most of them are modular.
May 06 15:51:46 <GeneralAntilles> I will be so fucking happy if I can get a Mac Pro out of this, though. . . .
May 06 15:54:24 <ShadowJK> Funny that if you buy a low-end brandname case you usually get a PSU too, preinstalled, but if you buy a high-end brandname case you usually get fans preinstalled and no psu :-)
May 06 15:54:31 <GeneralAntilles> Lot of people there yesterday with 1st gen iPhone with lines on the screen and no recourse but a $200 repair.
May 06 15:54:43 <ShadowJK> what, warranty over already?
May 06 15:54:56 <GeneralAntilles> ShadowJK, yeah, but the PSU you get bundled with that case is rather likely to explode on you. ;)
May 06 15:55:05 <GeneralAntilles> 1-year warranty
May 06 15:55:23 <GeneralAntilles> In the ~1.5 years old range
May 06 15:55:31 <ShadowJK> mine didn't explode, but it did see fit to auto-overclock my board by sending 6V down 3.3V line
May 06 15:55:39 <GeneralAntilles> lol
May 06 15:55:57 <GeneralAntilles> It's a 600watt PSU in my G5
May 06 15:56:01 <ShadowJK> But the contract is longer than 1 year.. what are people, stupid?
May 06 15:56:30 <GeneralAntilles> Well, they did buy iPhones. ;)
May 06 15:58:51 <lardman> Talking about contracts, I had a chap on the phone today from TalkTalk asking me my name, address, dob, etc
May 06 15:59:03 <lardman> I told him no and he became quite upset
May 06 15:59:09 <ShadowJK> lol
May 06 15:59:15 <ShadowJK> What did he say?
May 06 15:59:44 <lardman> and it turns out they wanted to offer me something like £15 for signing up for another 18months, as opposed to my keeping my existing rolling contract, hmm I wonder if I should take it.....? ;)
May 06 16:00:25 <lardman> not exactly enough to make me sign my life away for the next year and a half
May 06 16:01:15 <GeneralAntilles> lol
May 06 16:01:29 <GeneralAntilles> See if you can talk him into giving you an RX-51. ;)
May 06 16:01:32 <lardman> lol, the funniest thing was that I offered to give my dob if he would tell me my account number, and he said he couldn't as with that information I could impersonate myself :D
May 06 16:01:53 <lardman> GeneralAntilles: !
May 06 16:01:59 <ShadowJK> hm :)
May 06 16:02:09 <ShadowJK> two way challenge-response authentication :)
May 06 16:02:55 <ShadowJK> lardman, next time, offer him to sum up the numbers in your account number and DOB, and that if he gets it right you'll tell him your full DOB
May 06 16:03:13 <lardman> hmm, I'm not sure he'd have been able to manage that one
May 06 16:03:52 <lardman> GeneralAntilles: come on then, where are these new devices?
May 06 16:03:55 <lardman> :)
May 06 16:04:40 <lardman> I was thinking of getting one of those usb2vga adaptors for a minute there (for £30), but after some serious digging it looks like that chipset isn't supported
May 06 16:04:50 <lardman> and the supported ones are ~£50 :(
May 06 16:05:29 <GeneralAntilles> lardman, dunno, you tell me. :P
May 06 16:06:11 <lardman> oh, I thought that was a subtle hint about a TalkTalk tie in ;)
May 06 16:06:33 <lardman> Ah well, fingers crossed for some time in July then
May 06 16:06:39 <Mikho> I cannot find the -m32 flag anywhere in the code and nothing mentions stubs-32.h
May 06 16:07:14 <Mikho> what kind of things could imply the use of stubs-32.h?
May 06 16:07:45 <lardman> using a 64bit compiler?
May 06 16:10:57 <Mikho> the compiler i'm using is  cs2005q3.2-glibc2.5-arm
May 06 16:12:14 <lardman> hmm, no idea then
May 06 16:12:15 <lardman> sorry
May 06 16:14:36 <Mikho> never mind...
May 06 16:15:00 <lardman> ./me heads for the cinema, see you guys later/tomorrow
May 06 16:15:18 <Mikho> the problem was called the "always run make clean when you switch targets"
May 06 16:15:24 <Mikho> rule
May 06 16:15:39 <derf> :)
May 06 16:15:52 <Mikho> of course it used the object files I had compiled for i386
May 06 16:16:28 <Mikho> 2 hours of work time completely wasted
**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Wed May 06 16:47:46 2009
**** ENDING LOGGING AT Sat May 09 06:23:54 2009