**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Fri Jul 17 02:59:57 2009
Jul 17 03:56:05 <sarower> hello all, Good morning!
Jul 17 03:58:32 <sarower> i am using this function to change the window. it can enlarge the window but can not make it smaller.
Jul 17 03:58:33 <sarower> gtk_widget_set_size_request( (GtkWidget*) pluginWindow, width, height );
Jul 17 05:24:47 <sarower> Ok gys....I have solved it by using, gtk_window_resize( GTK_WINDOW(pluginWindow), width, height);
Jul 17 05:24:50 <sarower> Cheers
Jul 17 05:44:50 <Macer> wtf
Jul 17 05:50:25 <RST38h> "A man found naked wandering along the Nevada border has been tased and arrested despite his claiming to be a Terminator sent from the future."
Jul 17 06:41:15 <sarower> salara sob morche....
Jul 17 06:53:30 <Stskeeps> RST38h: hah
Jul 17 07:02:51 <chx> hi. I am in grief, my Nokia N810 (almost brand new) it seems not to made it home with me. Anyone has one for sale?
Jul 17 07:05:39 <Stskeeps> check talk.maemo.org's buy/sell forum
Jul 17 07:19:42 <chx> on another note how far is the N900
Jul 17 07:20:34 <Stskeeps> no clue
Jul 17 07:20:40 <Stskeeps> fremantle beta2 is out
Jul 17 07:20:50 <Stskeeps> qwerty12_N810: i fixed my charger plug! :)
Jul 17 07:20:52 <chx> and...?
Jul 17 07:21:01 <Stskeeps> chx: means we're getting a hell lot closer :P
Jul 17 07:21:01 <chx> qwerty12_N810: what irc client you have on 810?
Jul 17 07:21:08 <Stskeeps> my bet is september
Jul 17 07:21:11 <Stskeeps> at nokia world
Jul 17 07:21:17 <chx> Stskeeps: you mean, when fremantle gets released, then the N900 gets too?
Jul 17 07:21:18 <chx> oh
Jul 17 07:21:20 <chx> September.
Jul 17 07:21:20 <Stskeeps> yeah
Jul 17 07:21:47 <chx> can i live two months w/o a tablet/
Jul 17 07:21:51 <chx> big question
Jul 17 07:22:13 <Stskeeps> i lived three days without it and i hated it
Jul 17 07:22:21 <Stskeeps> boring commute in the morning
Jul 17 07:24:57 <chx> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_displays_by_pixel_density the end of this list is where it gets interesting and the only devices there with a more-than-3 inch screen are the Pandora and the Nokia tablets.
Jul 17 07:25:20 <chx> oh and the Fujitsu Lifebook U820 but i bet you need to sell a kidney to afford that
Jul 17 07:25:47 <Stskeeps> hm, smartq isn't on there
Jul 17 07:25:58 <chx> what's that?
Jul 17 07:26:35 <Stskeeps> http://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.26366
Jul 17 07:26:49 <Stskeeps> not as hard quality as a n810 or n800 obviously, but 800x480 and same screensize
Jul 17 07:27:03 <Stskeeps> very hackable - we run Mer, and Ubuntu on it
Jul 17 07:27:08 <chx> no keyboard?
Jul 17 07:27:18 <Stskeeps> no keyboard, but it has a lot of juice in otg
Jul 17 07:27:39 <chx> for me, a keyboard is an absolute must
Jul 17 07:27:50 <chx> the primary usage, i must say, is IM and SSH.
Jul 17 07:27:50 <Stskeeps> i'd wait for n900 then :P
Jul 17 07:36:41 <RST38h> reMoo
Jul 17 07:38:09 <Macer> i am honestly still at a loss on how opensourced products help companies
Jul 17 07:38:13 <Macer> like sun for example
Jul 17 07:38:25 <Macer> open office.. opensolaris..
Jul 17 07:38:30 <Macer> where are they expecting ot make their profits?
Jul 17 07:40:47 <RST38h> Sun? They do not.
Jul 17 07:40:56 <RST38h> They are part of Oracle now
Jul 17 07:41:46 <RST38h> OpenSolaris is a last ditch effort to prevail over Linux, an unsuccessful effort for that
Jul 17 07:41:54 <Stskeeps> opensolaris isn't half bad really
Jul 17 07:42:13 <RST38h> Sts: Won't change anything, even if it were given directly by Jesus
Jul 17 07:42:16 <chx> Macer: this is easy
Jul 17 07:42:33 <chx> Macer: open source (if done right) means a lot of people contribute and make that product better
Jul 17 07:43:01 <chx> Macer: if you are a solution provider then you have a lot more to sell (services!) than a software.
Jul 17 07:43:06 <RST38h> chx: So, how many people contribute to OpenOffice or OpenSolaris?
Jul 17 07:43:29 <chx> I do not know but I know ppl translating OpenOffice
Jul 17 07:45:57 <RST38h> chx: Exactly :)
Jul 17 07:46:21 <Jaffa> Morning, all
Jul 17 07:46:58 <Jaffa> Macer: IBM make a *lot* of money off their investments in Linux, Java, OpenOffice, ...
Jul 17 07:51:09 <chx> yeah there is that
Jul 17 07:51:22 <chx> OTHER solution providers might contribute to your product :p
Jul 17 07:52:39 <Macer> Stskeeps: opensolaris is great
Jul 17 07:53:31 <Macer> jaff	how? :)
Jul 17 07:53:31 <Macer> i'm just curious
Jul 17 07:53:37 <Macer> Jaffa i meant
Jul 17 07:53:51 <Macer> i don't understand how ibm makes money off openoffice
Jul 17 07:53:52 <Stskeeps> Macer: i have osol inside my media center now, heh - it takes care of my 3x300 raidz, and then i run ubuntu with boxee around it :P
Jul 17 07:54:15 <Macer> Stskeeps: lol.. i have opensolaris on my fileserver 8x1TB with areca hw raid ;)
Jul 17 07:54:21 <Macer> it runs like an absolute dream
Jul 17 07:54:35 <Jaffa> Macer: they invest in an open source product (OpenOffice), then add proprietary layers on top and sell it; with support contracts to their clients.
Jul 17 07:54:38 <Macer> faster and better than anythi8gn i have put on it.. plus zfs ftw on large volumes
Jul 17 07:54:38 <qwerty12_N810> Stskeeps: awesome! :)
Jul 17 07:54:44 <qwerty12_N810> chx: /ctcp qwerty12_N810 VERSION
Jul 17 07:54:51 <Macer> Jaffa: ok. now that was the answer i was looking for ;)
Jul 17 07:55:04 <Macer> thank you because i honestly did not understand the concept
Jul 17 07:55:10 <Stskeeps> qwerty12_N810: if you ever mess up your plug, get a torx t4 and it's trivial
Jul 17 07:55:15 <Macer> it just doesn't seem like that type of business model could sustain such a large company
Jul 17 07:55:16 <Jaffa> Macer: Other stuff, like Java & Linux, save costs and increase homogeneous enterprise environments of their customers, so they can sell more hardware; consultancy etc.
Jul 17 07:55:26 <Jaffa> s/they/IBM/
Jul 17 07:55:27 <infobot> Jaffa meant: Macer: Other stuff, like Java & Linux, save costs and increase homogeneous enterprise environments of their customers, so IBM can sell more hardware; consultancy etc.
Jul 17 07:56:01 <Macer> Jaffa: ok. i see :) thank you because i honestly did not see how opensource software was truly profitable
Jul 17 07:56:18 <Macer> i mean especially when you havfe to sustain a large company. i don't know what exactly keeps sun in business
Jul 17 07:56:23 <Macer> er.. or oracle now i suppose
Jul 17 07:56:47 <Jaffa> Macer: ...with lower costs as they don't need as many developers, consultants and support staff who know x86, PPC, ARM, z/Series, ... assembler or system specifics. More generalists on Java & Linux (even on the mainframes like z/Series) mean that IBM's costs are lower too
Jul 17 07:57:28 <Stskeeps> Macer: it's powered by fusion power processes
Jul 17 07:57:28 <Stskeeps> :P
Jul 17 07:57:36 <chx> qwerty12_N810: hm, xchat, interesting
Jul 17 07:57:43 <Jaffa> Macer: Oracle are very similar. By supporting and contributing to Linux, they increase the adoption of a single OS they can deploy their enterprise software to. By supporting Java (the biggest commercial reason for the Sun acquisition), they - like IBM - can save money *and* support more enterprise platforms: thus increasing sales.
Jul 17 07:57:54 <Macer> so... they make a *lot* of money by cutting costs? :)
Jul 17 07:58:35 <Macer> oracle seems to want to contribute to opensolaris don't they ? considering they now own sun?
Jul 17 07:58:45 <Jaffa> The other big reason for Oracle buying Sun is the age old hate that Larry Ellison has of Microsoft. So, at first glance you'd expect Oracle (a middleware company) to dump OOo; however he's going to invest in it as a repeat of his mid-90s dreams of a low-cost, network-based competitor to Wintel (a la the NC)
Jul 17 07:59:16 <Macer> heh
Jul 17 07:59:21 <Jaffa> Macer:  IBM's evenue take iwas around $90bn a year whilst I was there. Saving a few costs can increase profits quite a lot with those kind of figures ;-)
Jul 17 07:59:25 <Macer> he might want to turn his eyes towards googleOS then
Jul 17 07:59:44 <Stskeeps> Macer: it's going to suffer from the usual problem: perpherials
Jul 17 07:59:44 <Macer> Jaffa: i i suppose you are right 100% ;)
Jul 17 07:59:50 <Macer> Stskeeps: doubtful
Jul 17 08:00:07 <Macer> isn't it just going to be a google browser based wm with a linux kernel?
Jul 17 08:00:16 <Jaffa> Although as I said, most of the "new" money comes from people being interested in big, old mainframes again because they run standard Java & Linux, rather than proprietary old hardware. They can sell more of their services; and they can sell support contracts.
Jul 17 08:00:24 <Jaffa> Macer: That's what it's said to be so far.
Jul 17 08:00:33 <Macer> i don't see why adding hardware would be a problem
Jul 17 08:00:41 <Macer> linux for the most part has plenty of hardware support
Jul 17 08:00:47 <Macer> and i'm sure anything that comes with the os will be supported
Jul 17 08:01:04 <Macer> i think google is the only realistic competitor to ms' windows market
Jul 17 08:01:10 <Macer> they have the name ;)
Jul 17 08:01:30 <Macer> apple didn't have the same kind of name or style of reputation that google has
Jul 17 08:01:56 <Macer> which is why i think apple still has such a "small" share of the mainstream [PC] business
Jul 17 08:02:22 <Stskeeps> Macer: yeah, but hardware access for web applications is a nightmare
Jul 17 08:02:34 <Macer> Stskeeps: depending on the type of access that will be used ;)
Jul 17 08:02:48 <Macer> i think everybody is over-reading into the "web based application OS"
Jul 17 08:02:54 <Macer> and it will be more a local run than everybody thinks
Jul 17 08:03:48 <Macer> they act like the os will literally run off the web.. when i am pretty sure that can not be t case. heh. not everybody has that fast of an internet connection... so they would alienate easter eu lol
Jul 17 08:04:13 * RST38h finds it amusing that people now associate Internet with the Web
Jul 17 08:04:26 <RST38h> Like http protocol is the only thing in existence
Jul 17 08:04:29 <Macer> lol
Jul 17 08:04:47 <RST38h> And they are actually trying to run EVERYTHING via http
Jul 17 08:05:05 <Macer> lol
Jul 17 08:05:24 <Macer> well.. i don't think taht is really going to be th case with google OS
Jul 17 08:05:39 <Macer> if they can throw some 3D compositing and their logo around all over the place it might do very well
Jul 17 08:05:52 <Macer> it might do for arm based products what it did for htc with android
Jul 17 08:05:59 <RST38h> Macer: Google OS is a Chrome browser running in a framebuffer on a vanilla Linux system
Jul 17 08:06:10 <Macer> RST38h: so says you :) haha
Jul 17 08:06:14 <RST38h> Macer: It will not be anything more than that
Jul 17 08:06:16 <Macer> it's a year off and just an idea
Jul 17 08:06:20 <RST38h> Macer: So say my crystal balls
Jul 17 08:06:23 <Macer> it might not even be like that :)
Jul 17 08:06:33 <RST38h> We have seen screenshots of the idea though
Jul 17 08:06:40 <Macer> really?
Jul 17 08:06:47 <RST38h> And so far it is completely in line with what my crystal balls say
Jul 17 08:06:51 <Macer> hah
Jul 17 08:07:13 <Macer> where are the screen shots?
Jul 17 08:07:17 <Macer> i'd love to see them :)
Jul 17 08:07:25 <RST38h> a moment
Jul 17 08:07:29 <Jaffa> Macer: If you want to play with what a lightweight OS that runs lots of web apps feels like, see Jolicloud OS. Lots of Prism-based containers for popular websites. Not much in the way of local code.
Jul 17 08:07:55 <Jaffa> Google Mail, with Gears for offlineyness, is a far better mail client than Modest.
Jul 17 08:07:57 <Macer> Jaffa: maybe i will try it if i ever get my touch book that i pre-ordered ;)
Jul 17 08:08:21 <Macer> Jaffa: i am sure there are quite a few web apps that work better than local ones
Jul 17 08:08:31 <Macer> i sure in hell use gmail a lot more than i'd ever use outlook ;)
Jul 17 08:08:42 <Macer> or the macmail crap.. or (God help me) thunderbird
Jul 17 08:08:44 <Macer> heh
Jul 17 08:09:23 <Macer> although i run my own zimbra server also and think that half of anything i'd use was replaced by zimbra. the real challenge will be a good game market and the local graphics to apppeal to users
Jul 17 08:09:38 <Macer> eye candy sells :) if it is fast and smooth and uses the hardware well it can easily challenge ms
Jul 17 08:09:39 <RST38h> Macer: these have not yet been marked as fakes: http://digi.it.sohu.com/20050904/n240337911.shtml
Jul 17 08:10:10 <RST38h> Jaffa: Not difficult to be better than Modest.
Jul 17 08:10:42 <RST38h> Jaffa: But apparently Tear has offline storage stuff enabled, so someone can theoretically start writing apps for it
Jul 17 08:10:52 <Jaffa> RST38h: Those are very very old, and probably bear no relationship to this new ChromeOS.
Jul 17 08:11:06 <Macer> sure wish i could read the site :)
Jul 17 08:11:12 <Macer> what language is this?
Jul 17 08:11:58 <Macer> RST38h: honestly
Jul 17 08:12:01 <Macer> i like the way it looks
Jul 17 08:12:09 <Macer> it would go nice on the touch book :)
Jul 17 08:12:12 <Macer> if those are real pics
Jul 17 08:12:12 <Macer> haha
Jul 17 08:12:18 <Macer> ok.. have to do stuff .. bbl
Jul 17 08:12:43 <Macer> even if it was a web based compositing fb os with some sort of local storage runnign most things off the app or using gears..
Jul 17 08:12:47 <Macer> it has the potential to be good
Jul 17 08:14:10 <Macer> and i really think
Jul 17 08:14:20 <Macer> can give the failing ms a run for its money
Jul 17 08:15:49 <RST38h> Macer: But will you agree to surrender your ability to tinker with the system?
Jul 17 08:16:16 <RST38h> Because this thing is apparently going to be just the browser running on top of the thin OS layer
Jul 17 08:37:21 <wazd> heya maemo
Jul 17 08:37:54 <woglinde> hi wazd+
Jul 17 08:59:58 <Stskeeps> 'lo jrocha, - good job on the HIG :)
Jul 17 09:01:01 <RST38h> heya wazd
Jul 17 09:15:19 <wazd> RST38h: heya
Jul 17 09:16:17 <wazd> I just finished reading HIG btw
Jul 17 09:16:42 <Stskeeps> mm?
Jul 17 09:17:05 <wazd> Mobile applications must be able to adapt to all these displays.  <- Fail, Clutter doesn't have tools to provide scalability (at least that's what Vlad says)
Jul 17 09:17:22 <wazd> It uses absolute coordinates only
Jul 17 09:17:45 <Stskeeps> blog piece? :P either way they're getting rid of clutter
Jul 17 09:18:06 <wazd> Stskeeps: Oh that make sense :D
Jul 17 09:18:36 <wazd> Stskeeps: looks like maemo team are real fans of additional useless work :)
Jul 17 09:18:44 <Jaffa> wazd: And the requirement just means that Clutter-based apps have to do their own co-ord scaling based on viewport width/height
Jul 17 09:18:57 <Stskeeps> wazd: nah, i think it's about the bloody best idea they've had for a while to go for Qt :P
Jul 17 09:20:14 <wazd> Jaffa: Vlad told me that you can't adjust item size or coordinate in % in Clutter
Jul 17 09:20:22 <wazd> Jaffa: GTK widgets only
Jul 17 09:22:53 <Jaffa> wazd: Yes, you pass absolute co-ords to Clutter, but you work out what your absolute co-ords are as a %ge of the width/height
Jul 17 09:25:21 <lbt> I missed the clutter chat URL if it was posted...
Jul 17 09:26:17 <wazd> http://i019.radikal.ru/0907/4c/679f3fbd79f8.jpg <- maemo.org on Pre :)
Jul 17 09:27:08 <qwerty12_N810> My eyes!
Jul 17 09:28:09 <wazd> qwerty12_N810: well, it zooms quite nice :)
Jul 17 09:28:12 <Stskeeps> wazd: that's tiny..
Jul 17 09:28:12 <Stskeeps> :P
Jul 17 09:28:51 <qwerty12_N810> I was referring to maemo.org being on a Palm device, but now that you come to mention it... :P
Jul 17 09:29:12 <Stskeeps> a Mer proof of concept on a Pre would be funny though :P
Jul 17 09:30:08 <wazd> I like how browser address bar works
Jul 17 09:30:34 <wazd> it shows you the title when not active, and when you click it - it shows url
Jul 17 09:33:37 <RST38h> wazd: looks tiny
Jul 17 09:33:59 <RST38h> Also, why waste perfectly good screen corners? :)
Jul 17 09:36:23 <wazd> RST38h: well, all ui is rounded so it looks nice :)
Jul 17 09:37:04 <wazd> looks like I'm unable to save jpg from the webpage
Jul 17 09:37:28 <qwerty12_N810> Yay, I has drag lock setting that saves in hildon-desktop
Jul 17 09:37:39 <qwerty12_N810> *gets saved
Jul 17 09:57:15 <Stskeeps> andre__: i think it's sometimes hard for people to realize maemo software doesn't follow maemo hardware always.. as in, Maemo has a bug fixed, because it's fixed in 5.0, - doesn't mean your device you found it on will get that fix
Jul 17 09:59:11 <andre__> yeah. i'm wondering whether to change my stock answer to make that more clear...
Jul 17 10:22:15 <Jaffa> andre__: As Mer approaches 1.0, it might be worth also saying "this is a WONTFIX for Diablo, but the Fremantle fix may be picked up by Mer" (not relevant for apps' bugs tho)
Jul 17 10:23:59 <lcuk> "Fixed in frem^W Mer|Harmattan"
Jul 17 10:24:43 <Stskeeps> andre__: in the future it might be "fixed in package X, version Y"
Jul 17 10:24:47 <lcuk> jaffa, i noticed the scaling thing with clutter myself over xmas
Jul 17 10:24:59 <Stskeeps> how the heck the person gets that would be community SSU, Mer, Fremantle, or whatever :P
Jul 17 10:25:07 <Stskeeps> (for open source packages)
Jul 17 10:25:08 <andre__> :-)
Jul 17 10:27:07 <Stskeeps> andre__: if there was more community involvement in harmattan, what are the 3 things you'd like to see changed in development method of Harmattan regarding your work as bugmaster?
Jul 17 10:27:39 <Stskeeps> regarding = with your work as bugmaster as background :P
Jul 17 10:29:59 <lcuk> Stskeeps, im betting, internet controlled lasers at each workstation to uphold and enforce the criteria for good bug reports
Jul 17 10:32:42 <andre__> Stskeeps, earlier publishing of API specs and willingness to discuss them; better documentation; more devs in maemo bugzilla commenting and reviewing patches? :-)
Jul 17 10:32:55 <andre__> but lcuk's proposals sound also nice
Jul 17 10:33:25 <Stskeeps> andre__: ta - i'm collecting some stuff for my summit talk so :P
Jul 17 10:33:40 * Meizirkki sent email to Michael Fray asking if he has time to document his method if compiling android against Ubuntu's libc..
Jul 17 10:34:18 <Stskeeps> Meizirkki: good call
Jul 17 10:34:36 <Meizirkki> s/if/of
Jul 17 10:35:12 <Meizirkki> his email was easy to find, 3rd result in google search for "Michael Fray canonical"
Jul 17 10:35:13 <Meizirkki> :P
Jul 17 10:35:43 <Meizirkki> i wonder if Canonical is planning to integrate parts of android in ubuntu somehow..
Jul 17 10:37:40 <Stskeeps> i still think maemo's power is that it's toolkit agnostic
Jul 17 10:38:10 <Stskeeps> if i wanted to run an android framework app, i could potentially
Jul 17 10:38:22 <lbt> Hmm, should andre_ add something along the lines that Mer would be in a better position to fix these bugs if more people contributed to getting Mer going?
Jul 17 10:38:46 <andre__> well, i want to keep it short. people can still click the link.
Jul 17 10:38:54 <lbt> :D
Jul 17 10:38:59 <javispedro> "You are free to fix this bug by yourself" as a stock response should be fine too ;)
Jul 17 10:39:29 <andre__> the longer the text the less it is read
Jul 17 10:39:31 <Stskeeps> "This is open source, you are free to fix this bug by yourself or employ others to do so"
Jul 17 10:39:32 <lbt> javispedro: yeah - that's probably how it'd come off - and not go down too well
Jul 17 10:39:34 <Stskeeps> ;)
Jul 17 10:40:09 <VDVsx> just tried palm sdk, definitely maemo has the worst dev tools between the other three unix based mobile OS's :P
Jul 17 10:40:26 <Stskeeps> VDVsx: yeah, but not as bad as symbian? ;)
Jul 17 10:40:55 <javispedro> VDVsx, pre, android, and ?
Jul 17 10:41:11 <VDVsx> Stskeeps, ouch, thanks god :P
Jul 17 10:41:12 <javispedro> sorry, you said "unix" :D
Jul 17 10:41:19 <Jaffa> VDVsx: I don't want to try the Pre's one. Brief play with iPhone, and more in depth with Android just gets me angry and frustrated with Maemo
Jul 17 10:41:19 <javispedro> so that'l make #3 the iphone ?
Jul 17 10:41:47 <VDVsx> javispedro, yes :)
Jul 17 10:42:47 <javispedro> so what. which is the only one which allows you to recompile a debian package "as is" and at least see it work
Jul 17 10:43:14 <javispedro> priceless :D
Jul 17 10:43:29 <VDVsx> Jaffa, android is the more friendly so far, IMO, didn't tried the eclipse integration on the pre yet
Jul 17 10:43:35 <Stskeeps> javispedro: Mer? :P
Jul 17 10:44:14 <javispedro> this remembers me, Stskeeps, did Mer decide to follow Maemo and switch to Qt?
Jul 17 10:44:26 <lbt> they followed us
Jul 17 10:44:30 <javispedro> lol
Jul 17 10:44:33 <VDVsx> mer chroot is much better that the crappy SB :P
Jul 17 10:45:06 <lbt> heh
Jul 17 10:45:19 <lbt> I just replied to developer list...
Jul 17 10:45:22 <Stskeeps> javispedro: i'm not a gtk fan, personally. we're toolkit agnostic so qt and gtk will co-exist. but we'll probably begin to move more stuff to qt.
Jul 17 10:46:17 <amr> surely the fact you can recompile  a debian package "as is" is moot
Jul 17 10:46:29 <amr> you want apps developed specifically for this os
Jul 17 10:46:30 <lbt> VDVsx: just apt-get install emacs and ran gud....
Jul 17 10:47:03 <amr> it's a plus if you want to be a cool nerd, but the general user doesn't give a toss
Jul 17 10:47:16 <javispedro> amr: partly true
Jul 17 10:47:20 <Stskeeps> amr: do you want to spend ages fitting libwhatever to scratchbox compilation?, because your mobile application would benefit from it?
Jul 17 10:47:23 <VDVsx> lbt, well, is also a option, the "emacs OS" is powerful :P
Jul 17 10:47:32 <lcuk> VDVsx, with the palm and iphone sdk can you recompile the kernel?
Jul 17 10:47:46 <javispedro> the general user gives a toss if he can't run e.g. "curse of monkey island" for that reason
Jul 17 10:47:50 <lcuk> or are they for fruity apps only?
Jul 17 10:48:03 <amr> Stskeeps, as i don't develop for maemo i don't care
Jul 17 10:48:12 <Stskeeps> amr: i agree that we want to encourage mobile factor development, but we don't need to limit people too much :P
Jul 17 10:48:13 <VDVsx> lcuk, iphone is closed source, for palm you can :)
Jul 17 10:48:23 <lcuk> with the palm sdk?
Jul 17 10:48:26 <amr> i don't really see it as limiting
Jul 17 10:48:42 <VDVsx> lcuk, off course no
Jul 17 10:48:59 <VDVsx> lcuk, as a app developer you have intrested in compile a kernel ?
Jul 17 10:49:03 <Stskeeps> amr: as in, it's much easier when we can just pick and choose what libraries we want to depend on, and then just spend time changing our View to mobile form factor, and add in concerns for mobile usage
Jul 17 10:49:10 <lcuk> well thats what the sdk is for
Jul 17 10:49:15 <lcuk> i understand entirely tho
Jul 17 10:49:24 <lcuk> as a python dev yourself, why do you need an sdk?
Jul 17 10:49:34 <lcuk> cant you just use favorite text editor and run without any sdk
Jul 17 10:49:35 <amr> Stskeeps, i guess
Jul 17 10:49:39 <javispedro> Stskeeps, (in reply to Mer being toolkit agnostic) nice :)
Jul 17 10:50:16 <lcuk> surely favorite editor + ssh == much better  than having to setup anything serious
Jul 17 10:50:19 <javispedro> I think Qt is way easier to develop for; everytime I think Gtk I think boilerplate
Jul 17 10:50:47 <Stskeeps> amr: and that's what we're attempting with mer. sure, we're based on ubuntu, and sure, it's cool to be able to install emacs, - but what's most cool for me is the ability to develop a mobile application just as easily as i develop a desktop app
Jul 17 10:50:47 <lcuk> a couple of script files to do the grunt work and you could have a really slick OS independent devkit
Jul 17 10:50:47 <javispedro> but there's still lots of apps, even lots of lightweight toolkits (think swt) which still target Gtk
Jul 17 10:50:54 <lcuk> javispedro, qt is just as much boilerplate
Jul 17 10:51:12 <lcuk> tho you cant as easily see what the plating is because its abstracted down 17 levels ;)
Jul 17 10:51:17 <javispedro> lcuk: but machine-generated boilerplate (which btw Vala was somewhat trying to fix)
Jul 17 10:51:41 <lcuk> no, vala was generating the boilerplate for you lol
Jul 17 10:51:49 <VDVsx> lcuk, yes, I can, but I'm not only a python dev, and I also like a full integrated system, sorry but I'm not a emacs geek :P
Jul 17 10:51:54 <lcuk> thats not fixing it, thats just making it a bit easier to reproduce and work with
Jul 17 10:52:15 <lcuk> VDVsx, then a proper sdk should allow rebuilding the full OS
Jul 17 10:52:25 <lcuk> which of all the unix os's ONLY maemo can i think ;)
Jul 17 10:52:29 <RST38h> javispedro: Any boilerplate is bad
Jul 17 10:52:46 <lcuk> *in what you said up there
Jul 17 10:53:00 <javispedro> I don't think machine-generated boilerplate is bad (unless you mean this is a semantic contradiction)
Jul 17 10:53:07 <javispedro> think: compiler generators
Jul 17 10:53:09 <RST38h> javispedro: Machine generated ones are especially bad because once you change a few things there the machine can no longer regenerate them
Jul 17 10:53:42 <lcuk> RST38h, thats been the same since year .
Jul 17 10:53:52 <RST38h> lcuk: Yes, unfortunately
Jul 17 10:54:00 <lcuk> nothing you can do
Jul 17 10:54:10 <RST38h> Actually, Microsoft solved it
Jul 17 10:54:14 <VDVsx> lcuk, this isn't a argument for +90% of the app developers around, if you want more app in your system, you've to provide proper developing tools, this is one of the big problems in maemo, IMO
Jul 17 10:54:17 <Jaffa> If it's boilerplate, it should be runtime only.
Jul 17 10:54:22 <RST38h> So, it is not like theres is nothing you can do
Jul 17 10:54:32 <RST38h> Jaffa <-- essentially correct
Jul 17 10:54:41 <Jaffa> If it's machine generated source code as a lightweight, understandable starting point; that's fine.
Jul 17 10:54:49 <lcuk> MS havent solved boiler plate, they abstracted it and moved it into a different file
Jul 17 10:54:56 <lcuk> the .not solution sucks balls
Jul 17 10:54:56 <javispedro> lcuk: which I hate
Jul 17 10:54:56 <RST38h> Jaffa: usually never stays this way :)
Jul 17 10:54:59 <Jaffa> If it's machine generated boilerplate source code to prevent the developer having to write it manually: very very bad.
Jul 17 10:55:05 <javispedro> cause that means you no longer understand what your program is doing
Jul 17 10:55:19 <RST38h> lcuk: They moved it to resource files which is a solution as far as I care
Jul 17 10:55:31 <RST38h> lcuk: Of course, this does not mean I LIKE using Win32
Jul 17 10:55:35 <javispedro> but I like what qt's moc does
Jul 17 10:56:18 <javispedro> it: allows you to forget about the whole meta object system if you like, but allows you to read about it if you want
Jul 17 10:56:19 <lcuk> VDVsx, ok, so you want a lightweight IDE that can create funfilled desktop apps with lots of support
Jul 17 10:56:40 * lcuk goes back to PYTHON and the fact you technically dont need any sdk cos its already there
Jul 17 10:57:01 <lcuk> if you want more - with maemo you can have it - but its more complex
Jul 17 10:57:07 <Stskeeps> Jaffa: are there any good Vala IDE targetting Gtk, with a UI designer?
Jul 17 10:57:16 <VDVsx> lcuk, I don't want I can deal with the current tools, but other can't :P
Jul 17 10:58:14 <VDVsx> lcuk, give a try to the android sdk and you will see what I'm talking about
Jul 17 10:59:10 <Stskeeps> qwerty12_N810: ++ on applets_locked
Jul 17 10:59:13 <lcuk> VDVsx, i have my own sdk that i create my own funky stuff in
Jul 17 10:59:36 <VDVsx> lcuk, I know :P
Jul 17 10:59:39 <Jaffa> Stskeeps: No & Glade :-(
Jul 17 10:59:41 <qwerty12_N810> Stskeeps: GConf rocks
Jul 17 10:59:41 <lcuk> i *KNOW* the problems with complex init, and its a major bugbear to me
Jul 17 11:00:12 <lcuk> jaffa, really theres no ide for vala yet?
Jul 17 11:00:26 * Jaffa doesn't think Vala's the future for Maemo anymore (with the Qt change)
Jul 17 11:00:29 <lcuk> cant something like codeblocks contain language defs
Jul 17 11:00:55 <Jaffa> lcuk: There's Valable which I hack on (Eclipse plugin). Monodevelop. ValaIDE. None of them would count as "good" (but then I'm used to JDT in Eclipse)
Jul 17 11:01:24 <lcuk> ahhh
Jul 17 11:01:25 <lbt> Jaffa I'd love some help getting a Mer SDK with Qt and stuff working
Jul 17 11:01:33 * lcuk longs for cygnuseditor for amiga
Jul 17 11:01:41 <lbt> if you have seen the light dimming for vala
Jul 17 11:01:51 <lcuk> the FASTEST amiga editor in the world (had super blitting that reminds me of liqbase ;))
Jul 17 11:01:54 <woglinde> qtcreator and designer rockz
Jul 17 11:02:01 <lbt> yes...
Jul 17 11:02:04 <VDVsx> lcuk, as a counter point, do you remember the issues that you had with autotools/deb stuff, a proper sdk will avoid that headache ;)
Jul 17 11:02:14 <lcuk> woglinde, but what if you want QT stuff thats *NOT* cross platform
Jul 17 11:02:15 <Stskeeps> qwerty12_N810: i assume you're on hiatus from mer and such to concentrate on college stuff, so i'll add a task for someone to add that patch to h-d git :) (probably me)
Jul 17 11:02:20 <lcuk> supponsing i wanted to put liqbase into qt
Jul 17 11:02:25 <lcuk> but design using the windows editor
Jul 17 11:02:27 <woglinde> lcuk haeh????
Jul 17 11:02:53 <woglinde> cross stuff works
Jul 17 11:03:02 <woglinde> has nothing to do with designer
Jul 17 11:03:23 <woglinde> only some ifdefs for windows and macos
Jul 17 11:03:27 <lcuk> woglinde, liqbase does not run in windows
Jul 17 11:03:40 <qwerty12_N810> Stskeeps: I would have done it but then I heard "git" :)
Jul 17 11:03:44 <lcuk> so if (when?) i add a wrapper and extension  classes
Jul 17 11:03:50 <lcuk> it will blow chunks
Jul 17 11:04:09 <lcuk> VDVsx, you REALLY dont want to know my truthful solution to that problem
Jul 17 11:04:11 <Stskeeps> qwerty12_N810: ah, it's fairly nice actually when you start using it a bit :)
Jul 17 11:04:35 <lcuk> i was about a gnats whisp away from using the liqbase.net webservice to allow updates and installs and stuff
Jul 17 11:05:07 <VDVsx> lcuk, see, I have a point :P
Jul 17 11:05:08 <lcuk> i only had a problem with actually doing it the debian way which maemo on device tools cannot actually do
Jul 17 11:05:15 <qwerty12_N810> Stskeeps: I must learn how to use it then :). Maybe I'll set up a local repo full of shit... :P
Jul 17 11:05:18 <lcuk> no VDVsx no point
Jul 17 11:05:23 <javispedro> my maemo on-device tools ARE debian
Jul 17 11:05:28 <lcuk> if i i had used the sdk i wouldnt have batted an eyelid
Jul 17 11:05:32 <lcuk> i was doing it backwards
Jul 17 11:05:41 <lcuk> javispedro, yes :)
Jul 17 11:05:56 <lcuk> mer is kicking ass with that
Jul 17 11:06:13 <VDVsx> ~chase lcuk
Jul 17 11:06:14 * infobot chases lcuk
Jul 17 11:06:36 * javispedro is still using vainilla debian lenny
Jul 17 11:06:50 * javispedro wants to try using mer chroot some day ;)
Jul 17 11:07:11 <woglinde> lcuk ah okay
Jul 17 11:07:50 <lcuk> ~sickballs VDVsx
Jul 17 11:07:51 <lcuk> ;)
Jul 17 11:08:40 <VDVsx> lcuk, infobot is old and started to forget things :P
Jul 17 11:08:53 * javispedro javispedro believes maemo's sdk is best cause there isn't any, and you can build the perfect one yourself
Jul 17 11:09:08 <javispedro> (which is btw what I believe lcuk's trying to tell us)
Jul 17 11:09:46 <javispedro> let it be dpkg-cross, scratchbox1, sb2, on-device, whatever
Jul 17 11:10:10 <javispedro> or a combination of any of these
Jul 17 11:11:37 <javispedro> and then distribute it as vmware so that "the general user" can use it
Jul 17 11:11:47 <VDVsx> lcuk, when you use your on-device environment, you don't have problems with the ssh connection ? mine is always going idle/dropped after a while without activity
Jul 17 11:14:12 <amr> same with me, VDVsx
Jul 17 11:14:15 <lbt> javispedro: I use vanilla lenny
Jul 17 11:15:00 <lbt> javispedro: http://wiki.maemo.org/Mer/Build
Jul 17 11:15:07 <lbt> chroot in minutes...
Jul 17 11:15:33 <lbt> there's a cut'n'paste walkthrough here: http://wiki.maemo.org/Mer/Build/Application_Building
Jul 17 11:16:27 <Jaffa> lbt: I'll add it to my ever growing queue.
Jul 17 11:16:28 <Jaffa> ;-)
Jul 17 11:16:36 <javispedro> didn't like OBS so far
Jul 17 11:17:26 <javispedro> tries to do a lot of things. I won't say it does all of them badly, but just that I do not want it to do most of them
Jul 17 11:17:40 <javispedro> also, seems webby 2.0
Jul 17 11:18:30 * javispedro is a scratchbox1 lover
Jul 17 11:18:45 <lbt> that's a good idea... I suggest you unshift it
Jul 17 11:19:01 <sampppa> hello
Jul 17 11:19:08 <lbt> javispedro: examples?
Jul 17 11:19:20 <sampppa> how is it possible to change background colour of HildonPannableArea?
Jul 17 11:19:55 <javispedro> lbt: considering I'm going to build a debian/rpm package for a start
Jul 17 11:20:16 <lbt> well.... you are.
Jul 17 11:20:36 <lbt> OBS does nothing else. Just builds packages.  ?
Jul 17 11:20:49 <javispedro> then you're thinking of it as a autobuilder replacement
Jul 17 11:20:57 <javispedro> not as a sb1 replacement
Jul 17 11:21:00 <lbt> ah
Jul 17 11:21:12 <lbt> both
Jul 17 11:21:26 <lbt> the way it builds packages is to create a chroot in qemu
Jul 17 11:21:48 <lbt> so I create a dummy package called SDK
Jul 17 11:22:00 <lbt> it has a build-depends of all kinds of crap
Jul 17 11:22:10 <lbt> like aptitude and sdk-config
Jul 17 11:22:18 <javispedro> so, can you bootup the qemu chroot, the manually hack around include files to debug why your package is not building
Jul 17 11:22:22 <lbt> which installs useful stuff into the chroot
Jul 17 11:22:24 <lbt> yes
Jul 17 11:22:41 <lbt> a 'normal' build has a 'pure' chroot
Jul 17 11:22:46 <lbt> which is cool and elegant
Jul 17 11:22:48 <lbt> and useless
Jul 17 11:22:56 <lbt> you can hack in it
Jul 17 11:23:07 <lbt> but not much else
Jul 17 11:23:18 <lbt> so I created a general purpose chroot
Jul 17 11:23:33 <lbt> which, most critically, has a network
Jul 17 11:23:40 <lbt> (build chroot doesn't)
Jul 17 11:23:48 <lbt> then you can install all kinds of things
Jul 17 11:24:05 <javispedro> and then you'll get something similar to sb1 ;)
Jul 17 11:24:11 <lbt> yes
Jul 17 11:24:21 <lbt> gosh, never thought about that ;)
Jul 17 11:24:49 <javispedro> I assume it'll be sb1 "done right" cause I don't consider sb2 being "sb1 done right"
Jul 17 11:24:54 <lbt> correct
Jul 17 11:25:09 <lbt> we install modified 586 packages into the chroot
Jul 17 11:25:17 <lbt> offset into /lib-x86
Jul 17 11:25:24 <lbt> then symlink to /
Jul 17 11:25:29 <javispedro> (for a start sb2 likes to rebuild some dont-know-whats-for package list which takes half an hour before EACH dpkg-buildpackage)
Jul 17 11:25:46 <lbt> so  /bin/bash -> /lib-x86/bin/bash
Jul 17 11:26:12 <lbt> dpkg-buildpackage -nc  ?
Jul 17 11:26:45 <lbt> more details here :  http://en.opensuse.org/Build_Service/Cross_Build
Jul 17 11:26:55 <lbt> nb... I am writing this stuff as we speak
Jul 17 11:27:04 <lbt> modified glibc is compiling
Jul 17 11:27:14 <lbt> I've written the cross-packager
Jul 17 11:27:17 <javispedro> lbt, not the source package. I think it's related to some weird emulator configuration
Jul 17 11:27:22 <lbt> and I have a cross-packaged bash
Jul 17 11:27:45 <javispedro> nice job lbt
Jul 17 11:27:48 <lbt> javispedro: I confess to being so caught up in Mer that I don't have maemo sdk2
Jul 17 11:27:56 <lbt> don't tell anyone at Nokia ;)
Jul 17 11:28:05 <lbt> I'm running all the fremantle code in Mer
Jul 17 11:28:44 <lbt> now all I need is a cross-packaged set of i586 .so otherwise bash is u/s
Jul 17 11:28:47 <javispedro> I just hope someday I can just say "sb3-conf switch_tool /usr/bin/java native" ;)
Jul 17 11:30:09 <lbt> bbiab
Jul 17 11:30:24 <lcuk> VDVsx, winscp has a setting to ping after n seconds or something - keep alives, been in place for many systems (my ftp stuff uses em too)
Jul 17 11:31:42 <lcuk> tho actually looking mine arent configured and ive never needed em
Jul 17 11:32:00 <VDVsx> lcuk, humm, have to find a similar settting/tool for linux :)
Jul 17 11:32:04 <lcuk> windscp also cures connection breaks, i can be transfering a file, reboot the tablet and continue transfering
Jul 17 11:32:18 <lcuk> once back up
Jul 17 11:33:19 <lcuk> hey sampppa \o
Jul 17 11:33:33 <lcuk> what happens if you change the background color as you would on a panel
Jul 17 11:33:51 <lcuk> or is that a gtk styleism itself
Jul 17 11:34:08 <lcuk> (i could never even change the button background colorin my remote control)
Jul 17 11:37:57 <sampppa> lcuk: i dont know but it does not change, i use rc file
Jul 17 11:42:08 <Macer> made it 8 days so far without smoking
Jul 17 11:42:16 <Macer> :-)
Jul 17 11:46:28 <lcuk> sampppa, https://git.maemo.org/projects/hildon/gitweb?p=hildon;a=blob;f=hildon/hildon-pannable-area.c;h=21c140221b3b77f471cf27ddd0cd5843c00a5008;hb=47de2971f36db26f249d75ccfe772d230248223d#l1064
Jul 17 11:46:40 <lcuk> i can see 1 reference to setting the background
Jul 17 11:46:48 <lcuk> (the others are scrollbars)
Jul 17 11:47:13 <lcuk> its only done in the realize handler/constructor?
Jul 17 11:48:18 <sampppa> hmm
Jul 17 11:48:20 <lcuk> perhaps if you force your code to do same, or mess with the style and refresh, it might work
Jul 17 11:49:25 <lcuk> yerga, if you are around, do you have any idea how sampppa can set the background color?
Jul 17 11:50:05 <lcuk> Macer, congratulations
Jul 17 11:50:15 * lcuk has a celebrationary cig for you!
Jul 17 11:50:20 <sampppa> :)
Jul 17 11:51:03 <lcuk> sampppa, might be an idea to post some of this on ML (if yerga isnt awake lol)
Jul 17 11:51:53 <lcuk> what other GTK states are there?
Jul 17 11:51:55 <lcuk> ie this call:
Jul 17 11:51:56 <lcuk> gtk_style_set_background (widget->style, widget->window, GTK_STATE_NORMAL);
Jul 17 11:52:17 <lcuk> what happens if you set the state of the pannable to something else (disabled or somethiing)
Jul 17 11:52:25 <lcuk> does the background change as expected with other widgets?
Jul 17 11:52:36 <lcuk> oooh sampppa theres someone else that might know
Jul 17 11:53:02 * lcuk waves @ danielwilms and bets he craps himself and wonders what hes stumbled into ;)
Jul 17 11:53:07 <sampppa> :D
Jul 17 11:53:17 <Jaffa> lo danielwilms
Jul 17 11:53:30 <qwerty12_N810> Don't worry: he's dealt with sarower's shit...
Jul 17 11:53:32 <sampppa> for example with this example: http://maemo.org/api_refs/5.0/beta/tutorial/examples/hildon-pannable-area-example.c how to change bg to black etc ?
Jul 17 11:55:34 <lcuk> dare i ask who sarower is
Jul 17 11:56:02 <qwerty12_N810> search the IRC logs, you'll realise who...
Jul 17 11:56:18 <lcuk> i cant search the logs im on vnc
Jul 17 11:56:49 <lcuk> danielwilms, inside hildonpannable, it appears as though its not listening to sampppa's instructions about changing the background color and nothing he has tried works.  any ideas about how to solve his problem :D ?
Jul 17 11:57:01 <lcuk> he tried asking it nicely,
Jul 17 11:57:13 <lcuk> then raised his voice, and threatened it with dunking in a river
Jul 17 11:57:35 <lcuk> and he even told it he would build it in the bora sdk if it didnt behave
Jul 17 11:57:39 <lcuk> but to no avail :(
Jul 17 11:58:00 <qwerty12_N810> s/bora sdk/on device/
Jul 17 11:58:23 <lcuk> nahhh liqbase does that quite well (as long as i dont want to move out)
Jul 17 11:58:33 <lcuk> lets get worse: on device in a win ce .net env ;)
Jul 17 11:59:01 <sampppa> lol :)
Jul 17 11:59:24 <sampppa> maybe im doing something wrong here, i gotta eat somehting :)
Jul 17 12:00:31 <yerga> generally the widgets follow the theme colors
Jul 17 12:00:39 <yerga> the only solution is using rc files
Jul 17 12:01:06 <yerga> I think there are some applications using it
Jul 17 12:02:05 <sampppa> yerga: on the example i linked, i can change the bg colour of hildonstackablewindow
Jul 17 12:02:40 <sampppa> but when i add that hildonpannablea area it does not change, and if i set own style for hildonpannablearea it doesnt change either
Jul 17 12:03:08 <sampppa> with rc file
Jul 17 12:03:26 <yerga> mmm weird
Jul 17 12:03:44 <yerga> are you going to use buttons in the pannable?
Jul 17 12:03:48 <yerga> or a treeview?
Jul 17 12:03:57 <sampppa> for example buttons
Jul 17 12:05:07 <danielwilms> lcuk believe it or not but I'm fighting right now with the same thing :D
Jul 17 12:06:19 <lcuk> team maemo all stars - COMBINE YOUR FORCES!
Jul 17 12:06:50 <danielwilms> haha
Jul 17 12:06:55 <javispedro> ake off every 'ZIG'!! For great justice.
Jul 17 12:07:02 <lcuk> danielwilms, are you comin to the summit?
Jul 17 12:07:36 <danielwilms> lcuk: I guess so...most likely I will
Jul 17 12:11:34 <danielwilms> lcuk what about you?!=
Jul 17 12:12:15 <lcuk> i hope to be there, i have submitted a bit of a proposal
Jul 17 12:12:37 <lcuk> after my overview last year went down so well, it will be good to give a 1year later update
Jul 17 12:12:50 <lcuk> with all the nice stuff ive got lined up :)
Jul 17 12:13:20 * lcuk hopes it all works well together
Jul 17 12:14:02 <qwerty12_N810> Planning to bring yer Apple keyboard?
Jul 17 12:14:23 <lcuk> no
Jul 17 12:14:27 <qwerty12_N810> hehe
Jul 17 12:14:32 <lcuk> i have my laptop nowadays ;)
Jul 17 12:15:43 <lcuk> qwerty12_N810, i will have to enable adhoc again tho to do it properly ;)
Jul 17 12:16:25 <qwerty12_N810> Lies, just find a power socket
Jul 17 12:16:51 <lcuk> o_O and plug in a router?
Jul 17 12:16:54 <lcuk> thats an idea
Jul 17 12:26:59 <GeneralAntilles> Or just use whatever network is there.
Jul 17 12:44:42 <lcuk> GeneralAntilles its great assuming i can use whatever network is there, but if the network isnt stable
Jul 17 12:45:08 <lcuk> i oculd do with some kind of always on cellular data stream to let me be untethered :)
Jul 17 12:48:02 <Meizirkki> qwerty12_N810, pookee
Jul 17 12:48:15 <qwerty12_N810> Meizirkki: pong
Jul 17 12:49:49 <Meizirkki> can you help me with powerlanch? i have made a simple script to start powerlaunch, but i fail to add it in powerlaunch sources
Jul 17 12:50:08 <Meizirkki> i mean, i have tried to put @cp -f <script> ${DESTDIR}/etc/start-hildon.d/ and such in Makefile
Jul 17 12:50:25 <Meizirkki> but it doesn't appear to be there.
Jul 17 12:50:41 <Meizirkki> and if i add it to rules, it breaks at build
Jul 17 12:50:53 <qwerty12_N810> Meizirkki: Where is your sources? TBH, I'd just do it from rules
Jul 17 12:51:49 <Meizirkki> https://build.opensuse.org/package/show?package=powerlaunch&project=Maemo%3AMer%3ADevel%3AUI
Jul 17 12:52:14 <Meizirkki> it fail to build https://build.opensuse.org/package/live_build_log?arch=armv5el&package=powerlaunch&project=Maemo%3AMer%3ADevel%3AUI&repository=MerDevel_Ubuntu_9.04
Jul 17 12:52:19 <Meizirkki> +s
Jul 17 12:52:33 <qwerty12_N810> k, looking
Jul 17 12:52:40 <Meizirkki> thanks
Jul 17 12:55:28 <Meizirkki> i think i guess what's wrong there now..
Jul 17 12:56:12 <Meizirkki> qwerty12_N810, i'll try once more, if it still fails, i'll ask for help again :)
Jul 17 12:56:20 <qwerty12_N810> :)
Jul 17 13:04:40 <qwerty12_N810_> Meizirkki: Hmm, you could just add "MER_STARTUP_ITEM /etc/start-hildon.d" to debian/install and remove that mkdir & cp combo in rules
Jul 17 13:05:24 <Meizirkki> okay thanks, is the mkdir needed btw?
Jul 17 13:06:03 <qwerty12_N810_> yes, cp won't copy to a non-existing dir
Jul 17 13:06:28 <Meizirkki> so i leave mkdir in rules?
Jul 17 13:06:54 <qwerty12_N810_> No, I said remove them
Jul 17 13:08:26 <Meizirkki> qwerty12_N810_, if i use the debian/install, is the mkdir still needed in rules?
Jul 17 13:08:33 <qwerty12_N810_> nope
Jul 17 13:12:05 <Meizirkki> k
Jul 17 13:14:36 <Meizirkki> thanks a lot qwerty12_N810_ :)
Jul 17 13:18:10 <RST38h> "In response to rumors circulating the internet on sites such as FoxNews.com, FastCompany.com and CNET News about a "flesh eating" robot project, Cyclone Power Technologies Inc. (Pink Sheets:CYPW) and Robotic Technology Inc. (RTI) would like to set the record straight: This robot is strictly vegetarian."
Jul 17 13:33:45 <fiferboy_> lbt: ping?
Jul 17 13:33:52 <lbt> hi
Jul 17 13:34:12 <fiferboy_> Hi.  In finger scroll vel is the current velocity and vel1 is the previous, correct?
Jul 17 13:36:04 <lbt> IIRC
Jul 17 13:36:29 <lbt> I think that was to work around a perceived bug
Jul 17 13:36:43 <lbt> when I got multiple events with no delta
Jul 17 13:36:53 <lbt> or something
Jul 17 13:37:03 <fiferboy_> http://pastebin.com/m2545ec27
Jul 17 13:37:44 <fiferboy_> I think the issue is when last_event_time is 0 (so vel and vel1 are 0) and another event doesn't come in.
Jul 17 13:38:05 <fiferboy_> There is no velocity, so no kinetic scrolling, even though there was motion to set off a manual scroll
Jul 17 13:38:35 <lbt> mmm
Jul 17 13:38:45 <fiferboy_> This only happens the first time, when last_event_time is still 0, which is why I thought it was a focus problem
Jul 17 13:38:50 <lbt> If there is a manual scroll then it sets vel
Jul 17 13:39:05 <lbt> but if there are only 2 events then vel1 = 0
Jul 17 13:39:13 <lbt> again, IIRC
Jul 17 13:39:38 <fiferboy_> So, if the first scroll is a really fast short one, vel is 0
Jul 17 13:39:57 <fiferboy_> If the first scroll is long enough, vel gets set fine and everything is good
Jul 17 13:40:06 <lbt> possibly
Jul 17 13:40:18 <lbt> let me kick glibc and then load the code
Jul 17 13:40:48 <fiferboy> Ok
Jul 17 13:52:57 <VDVsx> nokia start selling symbian 'pieces':  http://www.nokia.com/press/press-releases/showpressrelease?newsid=1329543
Jul 17 13:53:37 <lbt> fiferboy: http://pastebin.com/m2545ec27
Jul 17 13:53:43 <lbt> I think
Jul 17 13:54:23 <lbt> need to check if last is set
Jul 17 13:54:43 <fiferboy> Last initialized to (0,0)
Jul 17 13:54:51 <fiferboy> I don't see any change in that pastebin, BTW
Jul 17 13:56:11 <lbt> oops http://pastebin.com/d6f57634f
Jul 17 13:56:30 <lbt> last should be set to start way back in
Jul 17 13:56:46 <lbt> if (scrollState == NotScrolling) {
Jul 17 13:57:11 <lbt> line 1549 : 			last = start; // record the last point touched for vel calc
Jul 17 13:57:45 <lbt> sets last to be the initial touch point
Jul 17 13:57:47 <Jaffa> VDVsx: Interesting. What was the source for that meme about Maemo being for high-end mobile devices?
Jul 17 13:57:47 <fiferboy> lbt: I tried that modification already and had the same issue (at least I think it was that mod, I'll try it again)
Jul 17 13:59:31 <GAN800> Jaffa, some Nokia VP in the AP a few months ago.
Jul 17 13:59:38 <VDVsx> Jaffa, I think that was quoted from a speech of one of the nokia's VP's, don't really remeber but I also read that
Jul 17 13:59:46 <GAN800> A comment about Linux becoming an option in the high-end phones.
Jul 17 14:00:23 <Jaffa> Ah yes, I vaguely remember.
Jul 17 14:00:54 * Jaffa wonders how Engadget will react to Rover; given the anti-Maemo stance of their last article (on the Chinese device)
Jul 17 14:01:08 <fiferboy> lbt: Strange, I don't have that last = start line.  In qabstractscrollarea.cpp?
Jul 17 14:01:18 <lbt> :D
Jul 17 14:01:24 <lbt> that's where it *should* go
Jul 17 14:01:24 <VDVsx> Jaffa, engadget is anti-nokia :P
Jul 17 14:01:43 <lbt> line 1549 :  + 			last = start; // record the last point touched for vel calc
Jul 17 14:02:18 <lbt> http://pastebin.com/d75b84535
Jul 17 14:02:23 <Jaffa> VDVsx: I'm noticing a great variation in tone depending on the author. Although I don't discount institutional bias (although, for consumers the Maemo devices have been fairly lacking for a while ;-))
Jul 17 14:02:31 <fiferboy> Ah!
Jul 17 14:02:34 <lbt> I'm not keen on vel/vel1 either
Jul 17 14:02:42 <fiferboy> lbt: I'm currently compiling this: http://pastebin.com/m50f34db5
Jul 17 14:02:45 <lbt> I'd like to try without having both
Jul 17 14:02:50 <fiferboy> It should be the same thing, just a little messier
Jul 17 14:03:39 <VDVsx> Jaffa, e.g, catch the dif's :) : http://www.engadgetmobile.com/2009/07/16/nokia-cuts-market-share-targets-as-q2-profits-plummet/  and http://www.gsmarena.com/nokia_q2_financial_report_is_out_shows_improvement_over_q1-news-1023.php
Jul 17 14:04:04 <VDVsx> same numbers dif interpertations :)
Jul 17 14:04:22 <lbt> yep
Jul 17 14:04:31 * timeless_mbp puzzles
Jul 17 14:04:37 <timeless_mbp> people are actually fixing bugs in bugs.maemo.org
Jul 17 14:04:41 <timeless_mbp> did anyone else notice that? :)
Jul 17 14:04:46 <Stskeeps> scares me too
Jul 17 14:04:57 <Jaffa> timeless_mbp: URL or it isn't happening
Jul 17 14:05:08 <lbt> mgrs on holiday?
Jul 17 14:05:16 <Jaffa> Presumably you're surprised cos they're in Maemo Devices' products (rather than Mer, etc)
Jul 17 14:05:25 <lcuk> "fixed in fre ^W harma ^W Diablo??" :D
Jul 17 14:06:57 <timeless_mbp> https://bugs.maemo.org/buglist.cgi?query_format=advanced&resolution=FIXED&chfieldto=Now&field0-0-0=resolution&type0-0-0=changedafter&value0-0-0=7%2F15%2F2009
Jul 17 14:07:16 <timeless_mbp> f you sort by bugid, it's the last bunch or so
Jul 17 14:07:20 <Jaffa> timeless_mbp: Now you're just showing off your bugzilla-fu ;-p
Jul 17 14:07:35 <timeless_mbp> https://www.squarefree.com/bookmarklets/mozilla.html
Jul 17 14:07:42 <timeless_mbp> has "shorten bug query"
Jul 17 14:07:50 <timeless_mbp> which is something everyone needs
Jul 17 14:07:51 <lcuk> timeless_mbp, if you are in the same building as danielwilms and you see him, tip your hat and wish him a pleasant weekend from me :)
Jul 17 14:08:05 <timeless_mbp> lcuk: hrm, i'd have to vpn in, and it's 5pm
Jul 17 14:08:08 <timeless_mbp> i'd rather go home
Jul 17 14:08:16 <lcuk> yeah he just left lol
Jul 17 14:08:25 <Jaffa> Oooh, PyMaemo bugs being fixed. I have high hopes for   #4782
Jul 17 14:09:24 <timeless_mbp> Jaffa: anyway, does the query make sense/
Jul 17 14:09:42 <Jaffa> timeless_mbp: yup
Jul 17 14:09:53 <timeless_mbp> for people too lazy to click "edit this query", https://bugs.maemo.org/query.cgi?query_format=advanced&resolution=FIXED&chfieldto=Now&field0-0-0=resolution&type0-0-0=changedafter&value0-0-0=7%2F15%2F2009
Jul 17 14:10:19 <timeless_mbp> and for people who want to know a bit more about queries: https://bugs.maemo.org/query.cgi?help=1&format=advanced
Jul 17 14:10:30 <timeless_mbp> (that's for people too lazy to click "Give me some help")
Jul 17 14:11:33 <timeless_mbp> for people curious about why i'm filing bugs in BlueZ,....
Jul 17 14:11:36 <timeless_mbp> it's mostly because i can
Jul 17 14:11:55 <timeless_mbp> they seemed open to bug filing and willing to fix them :)
Jul 17 14:12:16 <Stskeeps> it's a shame that's not a big thing in open source projects to be like that
Jul 17 14:14:57 <timeless_mbp> anyway
Jul 17 14:15:04 <timeless_mbp> if someone can figure out which other projects are open to bugs
Jul 17 14:15:09 <timeless_mbp> i'll gladly file a handful
Jul 17 14:15:12 <timeless_mbp> it's trivial for me
Jul 17 14:15:37 <timeless_mbp> i only have to start my vpn, which is just a minute of pain
Jul 17 14:24:22 <fiferboy> lbt: I had to set vel1 = vel in the if(last_ev_time) statement, because the MouseMove event in ManualScroll needs vel1 to be non-zero
Jul 17 14:24:46 <fiferboy> It is now working for the specific case I found, and it doesn't seem to break scrolling in any other case
Jul 17 14:26:17 <VDVsx> Jaffa, I remembered something about our previous talk topic, and here's the article: http://www.reuters.com/article/rbssITServicesConsulting/idUSL251396920081202
Jul 17 14:27:03 <Jaffa> VDVsx: ta muchly
Jul 17 14:28:54 <lbt> fiferboy: OK
Jul 17 14:29:17 <fiferboy> lbt: Scratch that, I have broken overshoot stabilise at some point...
Jul 17 14:30:34 <VDVsx> for smokers: http://www.engadgetmobile.com/2009/07/17/cigarette-lighter-phone-could-light-up-your-death-sticks-life/ :P
Jul 17 14:31:07 <GAN800> I'd hate to see that go off in somebody's pocket.
Jul 17 14:31:18 <GAN800> Or think of the viruses.
Jul 17 14:31:43 <qwerty12_N810> I'd like to see someone trying to take that onto a plane
Jul 17 14:32:06 <GAN800> It would make a pretty kickin' IR flashlight, though.
Jul 17 14:32:50 <VDVsx> qwerty12_N810, should pass in the infra-red machines without problems, I guess :)
Jul 17 14:37:10 <lcuk> VDVsx, i would rather see cellphones and mobile devices powered by lighter gas :)
Jul 17 14:37:25 <lcuk> same reful port as lighters, top it up and use it
Jul 17 14:38:18 <VDVsx> ;)
Jul 17 14:38:43 <lcuk> hell, they even have the distribution network setup :)
Jul 17 14:39:44 <GAN800> lcuk, we need to get you some patches. :P
Jul 17 14:40:03 * GAN800 is baffled at Michael Jackson's excessive popularity overseas.
Jul 17 14:40:53 <lcuk> its not excessive, he was billed as king of pop and lived up to it for many people
Jul 17 14:42:41 <GAN800> lcuk, sure, but he doesn't have anywhere near the popularity in the US.
Jul 17 14:43:02 <lbt> he's black. The US is racist
Jul 17 14:43:19 <lbt> most of the ROW don't care
Jul 17 14:43:55 <lcuk> lbt, not fair, i would expect an awful lot of americans are also not racist
Jul 17 14:44:38 <GAN800> lbt, bullshit.
Jul 17 14:47:42 <GAN800> How much time have either of you spent over here? :)
Jul 17 14:49:32 <fiferboy> GAN800: Be honest, do you think your country would vote for a black man as president?
Jul 17 14:50:19 <slonopotamus> hehe
Jul 17 14:51:37 <Jaffa> Crazy talk
Jul 17 14:51:58 <milhouse> but "pop" music is for kids... most people I know listen to every thing but "pop", so it is excessive...
Jul 17 14:52:41 <Jaffa> milhouse: But most people who don't listen to pop now would've been kids into Michael Jackson in the 80s
Jul 17 14:52:44 <milhouse> GAN: I've seen Borat... :)
Jul 17 14:53:11 <milhouse> Jaffa: I listened to him when I was a kid, I liked Off the Wall, but I still think the wall-to-wall coverage is excessive
Jul 17 14:53:36 <milhouse> The excessive coverage of dead celebs is a now a very worrying trend in the media :(
Jul 17 14:53:52 <Jaffa> True
Jul 17 14:56:23 <GAN800> milhouse, :rolleyes:
Jul 17 14:57:17 <GAN800> milhouse, there are horribly racist people in every country on the planet.
Jul 17 14:57:28 <GAN800> That doesn't mean that every country is racist.
Jul 17 14:57:31 <milhouse> sadly - and they come in all shades too
Jul 17 14:57:44 <milhouse> GAN: I never said it was
Jul 17 14:57:48 <GAN800> Exactly.
Jul 17 14:58:06 <GAN800> There were a couple of them at MJ's funeral, in fact. :)
Jul 17 14:58:40 <milhouse> s/it was/they were/
Jul 17 14:58:40 <infobot> milhouse meant: GAN: I never said they were
Jul 17 15:01:55 <timeless_mbp> andre__: why the cc's?
Jul 17 15:02:47 <andre__> timeless_mbp, because i might want to set a proper TM later on when I know from which kernel revision a nokia software product is shipped
Jul 17 15:02:52 <GAN800> milhouse, unfortunately lbt's assertion seems to be that the US is the only country in the world with racism.
Jul 17 15:02:52 <GAN800> Which is clearly bs.
Jul 17 15:02:59 <timeless_mbp> andre__: oh
Jul 17 15:03:42 <GAN800> I've talked to a lot of European tourists, many of them are quite racist. Does that mean all countries in Europe are racist?
Jul 17 15:04:38 <timeless_mbp> yes!
Jul 17 15:05:32 <milhouse> Those French - all bastards
Jul 17 15:05:41 <milhouse> ;-)
Jul 17 15:06:26 <pablo> I installed libqtanimation-dev , but when I created one example using QtAbstractAnimation , qmake dont find the packages... Solution!?!?
Jul 17 15:08:33 <lbt> heh... excellent troll - sorry - but I would have discussed it if the phone hadn't rung
Jul 17 15:11:00 <milhouse> Jaffa (and anyone else): If you're interested by the recent media obsession with dead celebs, Charlie Brooker covers it quite well http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_QN_hd9LeSs
Jul 17 15:12:31 <GAN800> If anything, MJ really broke down a lot of the racial barriers since he was a so non-threatening.
Jul 17 15:12:54 <milhouse> Basically, he says (and I agree with) popular opinion is now more news worthy than... er... real news.
Jul 17 15:13:57 <milhouse> GAN: I never found Stevie Wonder particularly threatening either.
Jul 17 15:13:59 <GAN800> Helloooo, 1984
Jul 17 15:14:20 <GAN800> milhouse, you're probably not a racist.
Jul 17 15:14:55 <milhouse> I like to think I'm not
Jul 17 15:29:29 <GAN800> The world will probably be a happier place when Nokia finally releases that goddamn tablet.
Jul 17 15:31:21 <milhouse> Another Charlie Brooker classic commentary on media coverage, with perhaps more relevance to the US... skip to 5:55 then listen to the forensic psychiatrist who is sadly spot on: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xd8IdK-T1Ew
Jul 17 15:32:53 <milhouse> GAN: Their shareholders will no doubt agree after the recent financial results.
Jul 17 15:34:47 <Jaffa> GAN800: s/tablet/device/
Jul 17 15:36:26 <GAN800> Jaffa, thingamabob.
Jul 17 15:36:38 <GAN800> Or, quite possibly, 'piece of shit'.
Jul 17 15:37:41 <qwerty12_N810> "Bong". Clutter is there to give you nice psychedelic effects
Jul 17 15:37:53 <Stskeeps> Nokia Bong. ;>
Jul 17 15:59:01 <infobot> I herald you, my supreme master! Lead us into the light of your wisdom and power
Jul 17 16:00:27 <GAN800> infobot, don't be a brownnoser.
Jul 17 16:24:32 <lbt> git is ridiculously cool
Jul 17 16:26:56 <Jaffa> lbt: I think I prefer bzr - simpler for my svn-addled mind to understand
Jul 17 16:27:29 <lbt> it's the easy branching that is so useful
Jul 17 16:28:00 <lbt> although I have to admit that visualising it with gitk was essential to get a handle on it
Jul 17 16:28:22 <lbt> now I'm supporting feature branches on an upstream svn project
Jul 17 16:33:48 <fiferboy> lbt: I can say enough good things about git now that I know it
Jul 17 16:34:39 <lbt> fiferboy: it's like zombies and vampires... shuffle after Jaffa and infect him ;)
Jul 17 16:35:02 <lbt> I'm going to kick the living crap out of glibc
Jul 17 16:35:12 <lbt> again
Jul 17 16:35:14 <fiferboy> lbt: For OSB?
Jul 17 16:35:16 <Jaffa> I've done bits with it, and selected it (and codebasehq.com) as a VCS for a new project; but I'm not sure I "get" it completely.
Jul 17 16:35:27 <lbt> fiferboy: yes
Jul 17 16:35:48 <lbt> Jaffa: total immersion for a couple of days in a real-world environment
Jul 17 16:35:50 <fiferboy> Jaffa: Once you start using it more than a bit, it becomes REALLY useful
Jul 17 16:36:16 <lbt> fiferboy: have you played with gitk ?
Jul 17 16:36:18 <fiferboy> It took me a lot longer than I thought it would to grasp the concepts, but once I started working with it it all started to fall into place
Jul 17 16:36:49 <fiferboy> lbt: I have used it to visualize a merge or so, but I'm sure I haven't used it to its fullest
Jul 17 16:37:22 <fiferboy> What do you use gitk for?
Jul 17 16:37:29 <lbt> I just used it to transplant a load of commits + branches from one repo to another
Jul 17 16:37:42 <lbt> you've seen my gitorious page?
Jul 17 16:38:04 <fiferboy> lbt: I thought it was only for investigating, you can perform functions with it?
Jul 17 16:38:12 <lbt> oh yes
Jul 17 16:38:12 <fiferboy> lbt: Which one? ;)
Jul 17 16:38:19 <lbt> http://wiki.maemo.org/Mer/Build/UsingGitorious
Jul 17 16:39:06 <lbt> right click on a commit and cherry pick, diff -> selected, create branch
Jul 17 16:39:21 <lbt> checkout branches... all sorts
Jul 17 16:45:15 <fiferboy> lbt: Have you tried any other repository browsers?
Jul 17 16:45:20 <lbt> no
Jul 17 16:45:24 <murrayc> Yikes. DikiKey don't seem able to deliver BeagleBoards: "Production for this board has currently been disrupted and we have not
Jul 17 16:45:24 <murrayc>  been provided a
Jul 17 16:45:24 <murrayc>  revised delivery date at this time.  We will continue to update you on
Jul 17 16:45:24 <murrayc>  this status as more
Jul 17 16:45:24 <murrayc>  information becomes available."
Jul 17 16:45:57 <Stskeeps> hmm, that sounds weird
Jul 17 16:46:09 <florian> murrayc: Try EBV, they build their own ones.
Jul 17 16:46:11 <murrayc> I'm asking them for vague details.
Jul 17 16:46:43 <xnt14> hmmm
Jul 17 16:46:44 <murrayc> florian: Yeah, if necessary. I just wanted something common and standard. Even the same models of boards from the same vendor can be different enough from each other
Jul 17 16:46:50 <xnt14> ~seen b-man16
Jul 17 16:46:51 <infobot> b-man16 <n=b-man16@cpe-98-30-195-117.woh.res.rr.com> was last seen on IRC in channel #maemo, 1d 13h 39m 56s ago, saying: 'i'm shure you can find one for under $200 ;)'.
Jul 17 16:46:56 <xnt14> lol
Jul 17 16:46:57 <lbt> fiferboy: I don't like the gitgui thing though... dunno why
Jul 17 16:47:58 <Stskeeps> murrayc: it's explained in http://groups.google.com/group/beagleboard/browse_thread/thread/06c35e38345e8996# i think
Jul 17 16:49:15 <murrayc> Stskeeps: Oh, thanks. That's reassuring.
Jul 17 16:49:42 <lbt> Stskeeps: either you browse the entire internet everyday or you have damned good google-fu... which is it?
Jul 17 16:50:32 <murrayc> It's nice that they have so many orders.
Jul 17 16:50:42 <GAN800> murrayc, jkridner is the contact for TI/Beagle on Freenode.
Jul 17 16:50:49 <Stskeeps> lbt: i have damned good google fu when i put my mind to it :P
Jul 17 16:52:06 <fiferboy> lbt: It is my "Infinite Oscillations" commit that breaks overshoot, I'm fixing it
Jul 17 17:07:13 * lcuk smiles
Jul 17 17:08:10 * RST38h moos
Jul 17 17:10:35 <lcuk> hiya rst
Jul 17 17:23:14 <VDVsx> ShadowJK, just in case you haven't seen it yet, here are the Surge specs: http://www.forum.nokia.com/devices/6790_Surge :)
Jul 17 17:26:19 * RST38h can almost bet ShadowJK is salivating over Surge
Jul 17 17:26:41 <ShadowJK> hm
Jul 17 17:26:50 <ShadowJK> not particulary
Jul 17 17:27:09 <RST38h> Shadow: It looks like the best E70 replacement so far
Jul 17 17:27:59 <lcuk2> VDVsx, it LOOKS good, but resolution is somewhere between the stone and iron age
Jul 17 17:28:08 <ShadowJK> Well it looks like a E75 sans numerical keypad...
Jul 17 17:28:20 <ShadowJK> or 5730
Jul 17 17:28:26 <adeus> yeah interesting resolution
Jul 17 17:28:37 <ShadowJK> E70 has higher res
Jul 17 17:28:43 <GeneralAntilles> 320x240?
Jul 17 17:29:01 <GeneralAntilles> Symbian 3.2 needs some phones with non-shit resolutions.
Jul 17 17:29:20 <VDVsx> not a word about the processor unit, but should be a normal arm11
Jul 17 17:30:56 <RST38h> ShadowJK: It looks less flimsy and has better keys though
Jul 17 17:31:10 <RST38h> General: No luck there, thanks to goddamn WinCE
Jul 17 17:31:32 <chx> interesting phone, that Surge!
Jul 17 17:31:32 <RST38h> General: It was WinCE and its lack of support for other screen sizes that determined the 320x240 standard
Jul 17 17:31:45 <chx> does Skype run on S60?
Jul 17 17:31:49 <RST38h> No
Jul 17 17:31:53 <RST38h> Not directly anyway
Jul 17 17:31:56 <GeneralAntilles> I'm sorry, but trying to do anything useful besides taking calls on QVGA is hilarious.
Jul 17 17:32:01 <chx> oh my :(
Jul 17 17:32:09 <RST38h> SIP runs though, so no big deal
Jul 17 17:32:14 <ShadowJK> there is a S60 skype version, but it's not publicly available
Jul 17 17:32:17 <RST38h> General: I know :(
Jul 17 17:32:38 <ShadowJK> and it's retarded liek the iphone  version
Jul 17 17:32:40 * RST38h got invite to Google Voice but could not register :)
Jul 17 17:32:48 <chx> http://jobs.skype.com/2009/04/cc_developer_on_symbian_platfo.html
Jul 17 17:33:24 <RST38h> Have to retry from work through a Santa Clara proxy =)
Jul 17 17:33:24 <chx> the N810 at least has Skype.
Jul 17 17:33:41 <chx> but the poor thing, so slow a CPU.
Jul 17 17:33:46 <ShadowJK> E75 and 5730 aren't flimsy at all
Jul 17 17:33:59 <RST38h> chx: Skype complained once that they just can't figure out how to port it to Symbian :)
Jul 17 17:34:22 <GeneralAntilles> That's why you should use a service with open protocols.
Jul 17 17:34:41 * RST38h uses a calling card and a normal landline phone :)
Jul 17 17:34:46 <RST38h> Open protocols!
Jul 17 17:34:52 <chx> thats really nice and could you please convince the world to use open protocols, too?
Jul 17 17:34:56 <GeneralAntilles> I'd hate to pay for phone services that only worked with phones from that company.
Jul 17 17:35:06 <GeneralAntilles> chx, Gizmo.
Jul 17 17:35:16 <GeneralAntilles> http://sipphone.com
Jul 17 17:35:18 <chx> gizmo
Jul 17 17:35:20 <chx> oh well
Jul 17 17:35:29 <RST38h> chx: I have better idea, let us just kill all humans, should we?
Jul 17 17:35:30 <GeneralAntilles> Nobody I know uses Skype.
Jul 17 17:35:31 <chx> i am an open source developer so yeah open source.
Jul 17 17:35:37 <chx> good for you
Jul 17 17:35:42 <chx> eveyrone i know does and then some
Jul 17 17:35:51 <RST38h> General: You are unusual in this sense
Jul 17 17:36:04 <GeneralAntilles> RST38h, no, not really.
Jul 17 17:36:11 <derf> Nobody I know uses Skype.
Jul 17 17:36:12 <ShadowJK> RST38h, oh, surge has the bigger battery, that's nice
Jul 17 17:36:14 <GeneralAntilles> Most normal people don't use VoIP services.
Jul 17 17:36:16 <chx> I find it *hilarious* when I say "i need skype" the answer is "no you dont"
Jul 17 17:36:25 <chx> I do not use VoIP either
Jul 17 17:36:27 <chx> it's an IM app
Jul 17 17:36:33 <chx> that's about it.
Jul 17 17:36:36 <GeneralAntilles> Alrighty-then.
Jul 17 17:36:40 <ShadowJK> fring does skype on S60 anyway..
Jul 17 17:36:58 * Stskeeps has good benefit of skype when abroad or fiancee abroad
Jul 17 17:37:02 <chx> does it?
Jul 17 17:37:12 <ShadowJK> yes
Jul 17 17:37:15 <chx> oh.
Jul 17 17:37:21 <lcuk2> skype kicks ass
Jul 17 17:37:23 <chx> how come?
Jul 17 17:37:31 <ShadowJK> what do you mean how come?
Jul 17 17:37:33 <chx> they reverse engineered Skype?
Jul 17 17:37:42 <lcuk2> i was more than a little miffed to discover that on n810 it wasnt usable in video mode
Jul 17 17:37:56 <GeneralAntilles> lcuk2, Skype sucks. I'd rather use something I can actually use on several platforms.
Jul 17 17:38:05 <lcuk2> yeah windows, linux
Jul 17 17:38:08 <lcuk2> is there a mac client?
Jul 17 17:38:15 <RST38h> ShadowJK: Using Fring is like pulling your fingernails
Jul 17 17:38:18 <GeneralAntilles> lcuk2, sipphone.com
Jul 17 17:38:23 <lcuk2> i didnt ask that
Jul 17 17:38:25 <GeneralAntilles> Works with any SIP client.
Jul 17 17:38:32 <lcuk2> is therea skype client for mac
Jul 17 17:38:40 <GeneralAntilles> No need to wait for Skype to support your platform.
Jul 17 17:38:41 <chx> yeah there is
Jul 17 17:38:43 <ShadowJK> RST38h, yeah, so the experience is identical to skype.. that's what you wanted, right.
Jul 17 17:38:48 <chx> GeneralAntilles: try to understand this
Jul 17 17:38:50 <lcuk2> so skype works multiplatform
Jul 17 17:38:55 <GeneralAntilles> chx, not talking to you.
Jul 17 17:38:57 <RST38h> ShadowJK: My Skype experience has been pretty flawless
Jul 17 17:38:58 <lcuk2> and FRIENDS and family know what it means
Jul 17 17:39:08 <chx> GeneralAntilles: I need Skype as an IM/chat platform because everyone uses it. SIP is not IM.
Jul 17 17:39:10 <RST38h> ShadowJK: I still dislike it but for purely physical reasons
Jul 17 17:39:16 <GeneralAntilles> chx, Jabber.
Jul 17 17:39:16 <lcuk2> "you got skype" results in a number usually
Jul 17 17:39:21 <chx> LOL
Jul 17 17:39:22 <GeneralAntilles> But, really, don't be so self-centered.
Jul 17 17:39:25 <lcuk2> "you got sipphone account"   would get me blank looks
Jul 17 17:39:47 <GeneralAntilles> Usually when I intend to direct things at specific people, I append their name to the front.
Jul 17 17:39:52 <GeneralAntilles> lcuk2, Gizmo.
Jul 17 17:39:56 <RST38h> ShadowJK: 10 non-English speakers trying to speak English in a room in front of a laptop, with their audio packets getting dropped makes for a very bad experience
Jul 17 17:39:58 <lcuk2> same problem
Jul 17 17:40:07 <lcuk2> "skype" has broken beyond the pc
Jul 17 17:40:09 <ShadowJK> I think the best thing about SIP is that it works with anything. So, I can just get a normal-looking tablephone that does SIP, and replace the normal phone with that, while keeping the old telephone number and everything. No need for the user to learn any new computer software :-)
Jul 17 17:40:20 <RST38h> ShadowJK: In theory, yes
Jul 17 17:40:25 <ShadowJK> RST38h, in practice too
Jul 17 17:40:26 <RST38h> ShadowJK: In practice you are wrong though
Jul 17 17:40:28 <lcuk2> people can pay for skype service - hence helping its legitmetness
Jul 17 17:40:41 <RST38h> ShadowJK: SIP "flawless" work depends on many things
Jul 17 17:40:53 <chx> So what is the difference betwen 6790 and 5730?
Jul 17 17:40:58 <ShadowJK> RST38h, I did it in practice for my parents. There wasn't even any setup required, just plugged it into ethernet and the phone automatically retrieved correct settings :-)
Jul 17 17:41:05 <RST38h> ShadowJK: Your client should be compatible. There should not be any weird NATs between your device and the world.
Jul 17 17:41:05 <ShadowJK> chx, there's a compare device section
Jul 17 17:41:14 <RST38h> ShadowJK: The connection should not drop packets.
Jul 17 17:41:14 <lcuk2> chx 1060
Jul 17 17:41:15 <chx> ShadowJK: where
Jul 17 17:41:37 <RST38h> ShadowJK: There is a lot of potential problems in SIP
Jul 17 17:42:14 <RST38h> ShadowJK: Just because you got lucky does not mean it always works. Skype, on the other hand, does always work, if you have got two Skype clients :)
Jul 17 17:42:15 <chx> http://www.gsmarena.com/compare.php3?idPhone2=2743&idPhone1=2869
Jul 17 17:42:50 <ShadowJK> RST38h, it works flawlessy over double-nat and a wireless link that shows 20% icmp packetloss when downloading, and there's no drop in voice quality when downloading either. I was very skeptical at first, but practice proved me wrong :-)
Jul 17 17:42:56 <chx> the surge is smaller but has a similar screen and has a beast for a battery?
Jul 17 17:43:05 <RST38h> ShadowJK: Well, does not work for me.
Jul 17 17:43:05 <ShadowJK> Amusingly, skype works far worse on the exact same connection
Jul 17 17:43:44 <RST38h> ShadowJK: I have eventually got the outgoing calls to work but then dropped the idea of using SIP after it dropped too many packets over my WiFi connection
Jul 17 17:43:53 <GeneralAntilles> lcuk2, by the way, I'm repurposing the web site design since you don't want it.
Jul 17 17:44:16 <ShadowJK> RST38h, it even worked perfectly over wifi between my E70's notoriously weak wifi :-)
Jul 17 17:44:26 <RST38h> ShadowJK: Relatively simple setup too: E70 -> DI-624 (NAT there) -> provider (another NAT) -> sipnet.ru
Jul 17 17:44:37 <lcuk2> GeneralAntilles, dont ever assume i dont want :) i have a long leash, i am still thankful for what has been started there
Jul 17 17:44:41 <lcuk2> and it will be used :P
Jul 17 17:45:16 <lcuk2> i made this work just last week:   http://liqbase.net/liq.20081031_033416.gary.scr.png
Jul 17 17:45:28 <lcuk2> multiselecting graffiti wall - look at the dates on there
Jul 17 17:45:32 <ShadowJK> chx: http://www.forum.nokia.com/Tools_Docs_and_Code/deviceComparison.xhtml?dev=[6790_Surge,5730_XpressMusic]
Jul 17 17:45:33 <lcuk2> i have been sidetracked with things
Jul 17 17:45:38 <RST38h> Oh! Icons!
Jul 17 17:45:56 <lcuk2> RST38h, ? on mine
Jul 17 17:45:59 <lcuk2> i had them for ages
Jul 17 17:46:09 <lcuk2> i allowed classic liqbase to use any sketch as an icon ;)
Jul 17 17:46:15 <lcuk2> that is old news :P
Jul 17 17:46:19 <RST38h> lcuk: You know the last little thing you have left to do?
Jul 17 17:46:42 <lcuk2> no
Jul 17 17:47:01 <RST38h> lcuk: Catch wazd ASAP, show him this screenshot and ask him for real icons
Jul 17 17:47:06 <lcuk2> no
Jul 17 17:47:11 <lcuk2> cos that editor doesnt exist
Jul 17 17:47:18 <RST38h> hmmm
Jul 17 17:47:26 <ShadowJK> lol, surge has the 2.5mm audio connector. That sucks
Jul 17 17:47:28 <RST38h> really? what is this image then?
Jul 17 17:47:45 <lcuk2> the image was my hand drawn mockup of what i wanted the graffiti wall to look like
Jul 17 17:47:46 <RST38h> ShadowJK: It is Nokia, they had to spoil it right?
Jul 17 17:47:48 <lcuk2> i made it real this week
Jul 17 17:47:53 <ShadowJK> RST38h, yeah, and no wlan?
Jul 17 17:48:01 <lcuk2> the multiselectability
Jul 17 17:48:04 <RST38h> ShadowJK: ah.holy.shit
Jul 17 17:48:06 <lcuk2> and having it actually work
Jul 17 17:48:15 <lcuk2> i had stuff i needed to adapt to do it properly
Jul 17 17:48:18 <RST38h> lcuk: contact wazd. really.
Jul 17 17:48:40 <lcuk2> RST38h, you do not see everything, but yes i already know to do that :)
Jul 17 17:48:42 * GeneralAntilles sighs at no DisplayLink PPC support/
Jul 17 17:48:43 <RST38h> lcuk: once you get the real icons you will fill obliged to finish it :)
Jul 17 17:48:43 <chx> it seems that i lsot my almost brand new N810 and I am now wondering how to continue
Jul 17 17:48:45 <ShadowJK> RST38h, yeah see, if they add a battery that would give you useful usetime, they remove something else you'd want.. like wlan and native voip :-)
Jul 17 17:48:51 <RST38h> s/fill/feel
Jul 17 17:48:52 <lcuk2> RST38h, nahhh i wont
Jul 17 17:48:53 <chx> there are so many choices...
Jul 17 17:49:05 <lcuk2> cos theres no point in icons until the functions are there
Jul 17 17:49:06 <RST38h> ShadowJK: Nokia.
Jul 17 17:49:14 <RST38h> ShadowJK: At least Modest is not there :)
Jul 17 17:49:29 <ShadowJK> this whining about modest is kinda old :P
Jul 17 17:50:01 <ShadowJK> where's mutt!
Jul 17 17:50:08 <RST38h> BSD mail
Jul 17 17:50:14 <RST38h> mutt is for wussies
Jul 17 17:50:49 <locutus> Wanderlust!
Jul 17 17:51:02 <lcuk2> RST38h, i have a bit of a sprint this week anyway (time off work for a change!) so i will be in a better shape by the end of it :)
Jul 17 17:51:23 <xnt14> hmm
Jul 17 17:53:14 <RST38h> go, lcuk, go! :)
Jul 17 17:57:39 <chx> what does the channel think of the  aigo MID P8861H ?
Jul 17 18:06:25 <GAN800> MID are hilariously oversized with terrible battery life.
Jul 17 18:12:08 <ShadowJK> GAN800, tiny is best: http://buttersafe.com/2009/03/10/tiny-house/
Jul 17 18:18:31 <GAN800> ShadowJK, thankfully I don't live in my mobile devices.
Jul 17 18:19:35 <GAN800> MIDs are big enough that they require a bag, and if you're needing a bag you might as well get a netbook.
Jul 17 18:22:20 <GAN800> Besides, you're a bad place when 'powersaving' is defined as "turn the device on and off everytime you use it'.
Jul 17 18:22:56 <RST38h> There are now smaller mids on the market
Jul 17 18:23:04 <RST38h> Still power hungry of course
Jul 17 18:23:18 <GAN800> Smaller still doesn't equal pocketable.
Jul 17 18:23:28 * ShadowJK doesn't care about pocketable at all
Jul 17 18:23:35 <RST38h> well, smaller ones fit cargo pants now
Jul 17 18:23:38 <ShadowJK> can't use it in my pocket :-)
Jul 17 18:23:51 <hooey> Finally, I'm back.
Jul 17 18:23:53 <ShadowJK> not until video glasses and some clever method of input anyway
Jul 17 18:24:08 <RST38h> Neural probes!
Jul 17 18:24:18 <ShadowJK> something like that :-)
Jul 17 18:24:27 <RST38h> Preferably shaped as long, sharp needles
Jul 17 18:24:32 <ShadowJK> I wonder how much power the screens use
Jul 17 18:24:44 <GAN800> A large portion.
Jul 17 18:24:49 <coldboot> Finally, I'm back.
Jul 17 18:24:54 <RST38h> Shadow: ~50% of the total
Jul 17 18:25:01 <GAN800> Finally.
Jul 17 18:25:04 <coldboot> If you have an ATI video card, DO NOT upgrade to Ubuntu 9.10.
Jul 17 18:25:14 <ShadowJK> smartq7 has huge battery.. on spec atleast
Jul 17 18:25:19 <toggles_w> coldboot: ouch... what happened?
Jul 17 18:25:24 <coldboot> Then, promptly buy an Nvidia card, and burn your ATI with molten lava.
Jul 17 18:25:39 <coldboot> I had 30 days of uptime.
Jul 17 18:25:53 <coldboot> Then I try to run Xine, and X crashes... or actually shuts down, because I saw the shutdown messages.
Jul 17 18:25:57 <coldboot> Then I try to run X again.
Jul 17 18:26:20 <coldboot> Surprise surprise, one of Ubuntu's patches has fucked up my ATI proprietary driver over the last month.
Jul 17 18:26:23 <coldboot> So I can't start X.
Jul 17 18:26:32 <coldboot> I try fixing the driver, installing a new driver, nothings works.
Jul 17 18:26:42 <coldboot> I used to work for ATI years ago on a coop, on their Linux driver team.
Jul 17 18:26:43 <ShadowJK> boot an older kernel? ;)
Jul 17 18:26:48 <coldboot> I knew how fruitless this was.
Jul 17 18:26:59 <fiferboy> coldboot: Can't you re-write the driver :)
Jul 17 18:27:12 <coldboot> I didn't work on the driver, just wrote utilities.
Jul 17 18:27:16 <coldboot> I could have booted an older kernel.
Jul 17 18:27:38 <coldboot> But compiz was also broken, so I figured it's been a while since 9.04 was released, so I thought I'd try it out.
Jul 17 18:27:57 <coldboot> Then VESA, radeon, and ati drivers aren't working at all. They all hard lock the system, even with a default xorg.conf.
Jul 17 18:28:01 <coldboot> So then I was completely fucked.
Jul 17 18:28:26 <coldboot> Getting the new fglrx driver would render a small improvement, X would be black-screen, instead of hanging, and I could enjoy my capslock lights.
Jul 17 18:28:29 <mgedmin> and I thought things were bad in 9.04 for people with Intel video
Jul 17 18:28:34 <coldboot> Don't use ATI if you can avoid it, their Linux drivers are total shit.
Jul 17 18:28:44 <coldboot> Not much at all has improved over the last 6 years.
Jul 17 18:28:56 <coldboot> They write terrible software.
Jul 17 18:29:00 <toggles_w> i thought alex etal were doing a great job
Jul 17 18:29:21 <toggles_w> granted, not ati, and no compiz support yet, but they run my cards ok
Jul 17 18:29:55 <fiferboy> mgedmin: What is the problem with Intel video in 9.04?
Jul 17 18:29:57 <ShadowJK> coldboot, oh does ubuntu 9.10 use KMS? that might cause it
Jul 17 18:30:03 <coldboot> They're doing the best they can, but the company doesn't make a serious commitment to Linux, and doesn't really care.
Jul 17 18:30:05 * mgedmin had the open-source radeon driver working quite well on his ancient radeon mobility l7 
Jul 17 18:30:31 <mgedmin> fiferboy: http://www.ubuntu.com/getubuntu/releasenotes/904
Jul 17 18:30:33 <coldboot> Getting acceleration to work is always a pain.
Jul 17 18:30:36 <lcuk2> coldboot, if it worked fine for a month then went in a flash means its being updated and will generally become better
Jul 17 18:30:41 <mgedmin> it was either slow or crashed a lot
Jul 17 18:30:47 <mgedmin> things got better
Jul 17 18:31:49 <toggles_w> coldboot: yeah, but i think radeonhd is making pretty decent progress, another couple of releases should see it working ;-)
Jul 17 18:32:12 <coldboot> In terms of track record though, Nvidia has done much better.
Jul 17 18:32:19 <fiferboy> mgedmin: I notice desktop effects periodically turns off with my Intel video, but at least I haven't had a freeze
Jul 17 18:32:20 <coldboot> They had a great installer years ago, and still do.
Jul 17 18:32:44 <coldboot> I still get dangling fglrx.ko objects which completely screw up the driver.
Jul 17 18:32:45 <mgedmin> fiferboy: that's a compiz crash; just happened for me the other day -- actually, that was the first time it crashed on me in 9.04
Jul 17 18:33:11 <mgedmin> the linux software ecosystem is extremely unfriendly to source-less software
Jul 17 18:33:18 <fiferboy> I used KDE's desktop effects, that must be why I haven't had it
Jul 17 18:33:25 <mgedmin> it's almost as if they don't want non-open-source-software to exist
Jul 17 18:33:48 <mgedmin> fiferboy: then I take back everything I said about compiz -- I don't know how KDE's desktop effects are implemented
Jul 17 18:33:54 <mgedmin> maybe KDE just notices slowness and turns them off
Jul 17 18:33:57 <mgedmin> no crash necessary :)
Jul 17 18:34:13 * mgedmin notices the channel
Jul 17 18:34:16 <fiferboy> That could be
Jul 17 18:34:26 <mgedmin> oh, by the way, maemo mapper and osm2go don't fit into 128 megs of ram at the same time :(
Jul 17 18:34:30 <ShadowJK> it's not like anyone is actively trying to break closed source software, or tivoize linux distros to only allow opensource software...
Jul 17 18:34:41 <ShadowJK> there's far more unfriendly behaviour from the other side :-(
Jul 17 18:34:54 <mgedmin> I wish someone looked into maemo-mapper's memory issues
Jul 17 18:35:01 <mgedmin> I suspect sqlite's caches are to blame
Jul 17 18:35:22 <lcuk2> mgedmin :) your stance on open source software is great, don't let the channel id effect how you speak
Jul 17 18:35:24 <mgedmin> I don't recall memory issues back when m-m used plain tiles
Jul 17 18:35:40 * lcuk2 learnt a lot from you :)
Jul 17 18:35:51 * ShadowJK vaguely recalls saying something about sqlite and performance issues yesterday in between thunderstorm killing internets..
Jul 17 18:36:20 * mgedmin hasn't noticed performance issues unrelated to memory
Jul 17 18:36:33 <ShadowJK> memory and I/O
Jul 17 18:36:41 <mgedmin> I think every time maemo-mapper starts queueing hourglasses in the corner, I see that it uses a lot of memory and CPU
Jul 17 18:36:46 <mgedmin> so I think it's simply swapping
Jul 17 18:36:50 <mgedmin> swapping kills performance
Jul 17 18:37:29 <mgedmin> wouldn't it be awesome if there was a simple knob somewhere that you could turn and tell sqlite to use less memory for cache
Jul 17 18:37:39 <mgedmin> that of course assumes my blind uneducated guess is right
Jul 17 18:38:18 <mgedmin> this would probably make a fine maemo summit talk: "how I optimized maemo mapper's memory usage"
Jul 17 18:38:21 <mgedmin> hint, hint
Jul 17 18:38:28 <ShadowJK> so the OS has a cache and Sqlite has a cache. That's twice the ram already, except sqlite probably doesn't shrink its cache if memory is short... :P
Jul 17 18:38:38 <lcuk2> http://web.utk.edu/~jplyon/sqlite/SQLite_optimization_FAQ.html
Jul 17 18:39:12 <lcuk2> that implies a recompilation requirement for cache changes
Jul 17 18:39:18 * Jaffa needs a new topic for a Summit talk, if he wants to save money and get sponsorship
Jul 17 18:39:34 <Jaffa> "Vala for Maemo development" doesn't sound like a long-lived idea anymore
Jul 17 18:39:56 <mgedmin> okay, that FAQ says the default cache is 2 megabytes
Jul 17 18:39:56 <lcuk2> mgedmin, you could attempt to vacuum the db,
Jul 17 18:39:57 <Jaffa> Maybe, "Development in the real world: IDEs and what they can do for you"
Jul 17 18:40:00 <mgedmin> not exactly all-memory-consuming
Jul 17 18:40:03 * lcuk2 knows it as compact and repair :P
Jul 17 18:40:12 <slonopotamus> Jaffa, talk about evil of patching the worlld
Jul 17 18:40:28 <mgedmin> what happened to vala?
Jul 17 18:40:38 <ShadowJK> maemo-mapper messes with screen blanking for me too, i haven't been able to figure out how or why or what, but sometimes with maemomapper open the screen blank time becomes 2 minutes instead of the 5 minutes i've set in control panel :/
Jul 17 18:40:55 <slonopotamus> Jaffa, or 'on-tablet development or whhy python's performance suck'
Jul 17 18:41:35 * mgedmin is seeing hints that nokia is sponsoring (or perhaps encouraging, no idea if $ changes hands) work on pypy with goals to improve performance and reduce memory usage
Jul 17 18:41:48 * mgedmin was all excited when he heard pypy's plans of mmap-friendly .pyc files
Jul 17 18:42:00 <slonopotamus> mgedmin, forget it
Jul 17 18:42:03 <mgedmin> maybe we'll see some results in, say, 5 years
Jul 17 18:42:12 <slonopotamus> mgedmin, python will never become fast
Jul 17 18:42:26 <mgedmin> but it could become faster
Jul 17 18:42:45 <slonopotamus> mgedmin, the only fast python parts are those that are written in C
Jul 17 18:42:50 * mgedmin has 67 megs in OpenStreetMap.db
Jul 17 18:43:21 <mgedmin> oh, right, diablo has no sqlite3 command-line client :(
Jul 17 18:43:45 <slonopotamus> of course it doesn't!
Jul 17 18:43:59 <mgedmin> uhh, file says OpenStreetMap.db is "GNU dbm 1.x or ndbm database, little endian"
Jul 17 18:44:29 <mgedmin> that can't be right... right?
Jul 17 18:44:34 <slonopotamus> and you won't be able to build one manually because diablo's libsqlite in incompatibly patched
Jul 17 18:44:46 <slonopotamus> mgedmin, why not?
Jul 17 18:44:57 * mgedmin was so sure it was sqlite
Jul 17 18:45:21 <mgedmin> so only poi.db is sqlite?
Jul 17 18:45:26 <ShadowJK> heh
Jul 17 18:45:35 <mgedmin> does gdbm have an in-memory cache?  is it tunable?
Jul 17 18:45:43 <ShadowJK> strace maemo-mapper... and bingo, the thing I was talking about yesterday
Jul 17 18:45:53 <ShadowJK> fsync()... 1 second to execute
Jul 17 18:46:13 <slonopotamus> ShadowJK, why it needs fsync at all?
Jul 17 18:46:21 <mgedmin> sqlite likes to fsync
Jul 17 18:46:31 <mgedmin> but why?  what transactions could mm be committing?
Jul 17 18:46:37 <mgedmin> saving the current track?
Jul 17 18:46:47 <mgedmin> where does maemo mapper keep all the data?
Jul 17 18:47:00 <ShadowJK> sure does consume huge amounts of RAM
Jul 17 18:47:01 <mgedmin> ~/.maemo-mapper/paths.db is an sqlite db
Jul 17 18:47:02 <infobot> okay, mgedmin
Jul 17 18:47:11 <ShadowJK> ... 4 seconds to fsync
Jul 17 18:47:18 <mgedmin> thank you very much, infobot, for remembering that very useful piece of knowledge
Jul 17 18:47:39 <mgedmin> ouchies
Jul 17 18:47:42 <slonopotamus> :D
Jul 17 18:47:47 * mgedmin suddenly realizes why he never noticed
Jul 17 18:47:58 <slonopotamus> ~/.maemo-mapper/paths.db
Jul 17 18:47:59 <mgedmin> because when you run out of ram, scrolling the map has latencies in tens of seconds
Jul 17 18:47:59 <infobot> /.maemo-mapper/paths.db is, like, an sqlite db
Jul 17 18:48:05 <slonopotamus> :D
Jul 17 18:48:06 <slonopotamus> lol
Jul 17 18:48:08 <mgedmin> :)
Jul 17 18:48:18 <slonopotamus> ~/ is home, sweet home
Jul 17 18:48:19 <infobot> ...but / is already something else...
Jul 17 18:48:25 <slonopotamus> crap
Jul 17 18:48:27 <mgedmin> what is /?
Jul 17 18:48:28 <slonopotamus> ~/
Jul 17 18:48:29 <infobot> ~/ is your home dir silly!, or root, of all Unix
Jul 17 18:48:35 <ShadowJK> infobot, forget ~/
Jul 17 18:48:35 <infobot> ShadowJK: i didn't have anything called '~/' to forget
Jul 17 18:48:52 <slonopotamus> infobot, forget /
Jul 17 18:48:52 <infobot> slonopotamus: i forgot /
Jul 17 18:48:53 <mgedmin> okay, that's a bit inconsistent
Jul 17 18:48:56 <slonopotamus> ~/
Jul 17 18:49:05 <mgedmin> /
Jul 17 18:49:10 <mgedmin> \
Jul 17 18:49:11 <mgedmin> ~\
Jul 17 18:49:12 <slonopotamus> ~/ is home, sweet home
Jul 17 18:49:13 <infobot> slonopotamus: okay
Jul 17 18:49:29 <mgedmin> oh no, the ascii-art half-dna spiral got interrupted
Jul 17 18:50:31 <slonopotamus> ~infobot is just boring stupiid bot
Jul 17 18:50:41 <slonopotamus> ...
Jul 17 18:53:19 <coldboot> ~apricot
Jul 17 18:53:32 <coldboot> ha! fooled you, infobot.
Jul 17 18:56:21 <coldboot> Tracking /opt/maemo, ~/.scratchbox2, ~/.maemo-sdk in git really paid off when I had to clean install.
Jul 17 18:57:06 <ShadowJK> heh, maemo-mapper rarely uses more than 20% CPU because it sits waiting on swap or file i/o all the time :)
Jul 17 19:00:31 <javispedro> ~burn gcc
Jul 17 19:00:32 * infobot pours gasoline all over gcc, ignites the fire, and then enjoys some toasty marshmallows with the glorious blaze
Jul 17 19:01:42 <slonopotamus> javispedro, don't touch gcc
Jul 17 19:02:46 <Jaffa> mgedmin: Vala's a dead-end for Maemo with the move to Qt; unless it had some Qt backends created.
Jul 17 19:02:56 <Jaffa> Which'd be... challenging (AIUI)
Jul 17 19:04:23 <slonopotamus> vala's not needed
Jul 17 19:04:50 <Jaffa> slonopotamus: A nice, garbage-collected, high-level language with decent IDE support is needed.
Jul 17 19:05:06 <Jaffa> That's probably Python now, with PyQt/Pluthon
Jul 17 19:05:14 <javispedro> and that's called Qt with Boehm's, and is just waiting for anyone to develop it
Jul 17 19:06:27 <Jaffa> javispedro: Boehm's?
Jul 17 19:06:47 <javispedro> a garbage collector which afaik works with Qt
Jul 17 19:07:07 <javispedro> (for C++)
Jul 17 19:07:11 * Jaffa looks forward to seeing the ASM performance on OMAP3430; perhaps Java'll be a real contender there.
Jul 17 19:07:15 <Jaffa> Still C++ ;-)
Jul 17 19:07:46 <crashanddie> I'd love to have a good Java implementation on the NITs
Jul 17 19:08:06 <crashanddie> so I can run Eclipse and program in C++ on the go!
Jul 17 19:08:15 <GAN800> Woo
Jul 17 19:08:19 <Jaffa> crashanddie: javispedro's Jazelle work is promising. And Sun are incrasingly focusing on ARM with Java SE embedded
Jul 17 19:08:23 <Jaffa> crashanddie: :-p
Jul 17 19:08:43 * javispedro has been playing with jamvm and that's the reason he ~burnt gcc 
Jul 17 19:08:56 * ShadowJK would love to have any java implementation on the nit
Jul 17 19:08:57 <crashanddie> have you guys ever worked with ikvm ?
Jul 17 19:09:04 <Jaffa> crashanddie: not directly.
Jul 17 19:09:06 <slonopotamus> javispedro, burn jamvm
Jul 17 19:09:07 <ShadowJK> well mostly I'd want midp2, but still :-)
Jul 17 19:09:37 <crashanddie> absolutely amazing: converts most java libraries into C#. Absolutely perfect when you have to use that half baked C# language but can still use familiar Java libraries
Jul 17 19:09:39 <Jaffa> ShadowJK: Jalimo basically works. I've run equinox and OSGi bundles in X Terminal and written noddy little SWT apps which use it.
Jul 17 19:09:53 <Jaffa> Start up time is the big kicker.
Jul 17 19:10:25 <Jaffa> I looked at having a maemo-launcher like thing using OSGi to have different "apps" as bundles with their own classloaders etc; but SWT doesn't like not being the main thread.
Jul 17 19:11:02 <ShadowJK> besides, having a java-launcher just means it'll get paged out while the user uses the browser or something else, and paging it back in is probably slower than launching it from scratch..
Jul 17 19:11:10 <javispedro> slonopotamus, the problem is gcc and whatever is doing with register allocations and stack. not really gcc's fault, since they clearly say that inline asm is not allowed to break program flow
Jul 17 19:11:24 <javispedro> but I'm ranting either way
Jul 17 19:11:26 <javispedro> ;)
Jul 17 19:12:39 <javispedro> memory is the reason I'd wanted jamvm; it's the lightest I know
Jul 17 19:12:59 <slonopotamus> java will always be a mem hog
Jul 17 19:13:18 <slonopotamus> trust me, i'm java developer after all :)
Jul 17 19:13:24 <ShadowJK> running it without jit should save some? :)
Jul 17 19:13:50 <javispedro> jit usually means 2x memory usage
Jul 17 19:14:30 <crashanddie> slonopotamus, java developer as in "you develop using java", or, "you develop java"
Jul 17 19:15:32 <Jaffa> 19:36 < ShadowJK> so the OS has a cache and Sqlite has a cache. That's twice
Jul 17 19:15:39 <Jaffa> Eh?
Jul 17 19:15:42 * Jaffa wonders what he pressed.
Jul 17 19:16:00 <Jaffa> ShadowJK: It'd be paged out, but it'd be paged in in an initialised state
Jul 17 19:16:59 <ShadowJK> Jaffa, ah but when it's finding something else to page out to make room to page java-launcher back in, the random write/read load will make the SD/MMC behave like a tape drive ;)
Jul 17 19:17:12 <Jaffa> Not a flyer anyway
Jul 17 19:17:46 <slonopotamus> crashanddie, in java
Jul 17 19:18:21 <ShadowJK> hm wait, SWT on maemo?
Jul 17 19:18:44 <ShadowJK> isn't that the thing that made azureus huge memory and cpu hog and unrunnable on PCs 'til this day? ;)
Jul 17 19:19:16 <javispedro> I blame the gtk backend ;)
Jul 17 19:19:38 <glass> hehe
Jul 17 19:21:47 <Jaffa> ShadowJK: SWT's lighter weight and faster than Swing IME. Azureus is slow and bloated as they pile in "rich media content" like a web browser which goes and does flashy effects to show lots of videos I'm not interested in when I want to torrent something
Jul 17 19:23:27 <chx> azureus can be cli
Jul 17 19:23:29 * RST38h throws up seeing SWT and Swing mentioned
Jul 17 19:23:59 <Jaffa> SWT's not too bad. Better than GTK+ at least ;-)
Jul 17 19:24:04 <Jaffa> chx: Hmm, interesting.
Jul 17 19:24:53 * ShadowJK hasn't seen any flashy effects, web browsing capability or videos in it
Jul 17 19:26:30 <qwerty12_N810> I think that came when it was renamed to "Miro"
Jul 17 19:27:23 <ShadowJK> it's miro now?didn't it rename to something else before that
Jul 17 19:27:32 <chx> Jaffa: http://rpm.pbone.net/index.php3/stat/4/idpl/12474107/com/Vuze-console-4.2.0.3-B18.pm.1.noarch.rpm.html
Jul 17 19:27:35 <Jaffa> qwerty12_N810: s/Miro/VCuze/
Jul 17 19:27:38 <Jaffa> qwerty12_N810: s/Miro/Vuze/
Jul 17 19:27:51 <qwerty12_N810> Ah, thanks
Jul 17 19:44:38 <RST38h> Any assembler wizards around?
Jul 17 19:46:48 <woglinde> rst arm? x86?
Jul 17 19:47:00 <RST38h> arm
Jul 17 19:47:07 <woglinde> hm little bit
Jul 17 19:47:09 <woglinde> show me
Jul 17 19:47:16 <RST38h> Actually I am looking for GNU AS directive that cancels .requ
Jul 17 19:53:23 <derf> .requ?
Jul 17 19:53:28 <derf> Is that anything like .req?
Jul 17 19:54:35 <RST38h> Sorry, .req
Jul 17 19:54:41 <derf> .unreq
Jul 17 19:54:46 * RST38h usually uses ARMSDT syntax
Jul 17 19:54:50 <RST38h> derf: Ah!
Jul 17 19:54:52 <RST38h> Thanks!
Jul 17 19:56:56 <RST38h> Hmm...ok, it compiled. Let us see what it does now
Jul 17 19:57:22 <derf> For future reference: http://sourceware.org/binutils/docs-2.19/as/ARM-Directives.html
Jul 17 19:57:47 <derf> I love, "Note - this pseudo op can be used to delete builtin in register name aliases (eg 'r0'). This should only be done if it is really necessary."
Jul 17 19:58:51 <woglinde> rst haha -> http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-4-Manual/gnu-assembler/arm-directives.html
Jul 17 19:58:54 <RST38h> derf: Ah, the beauties of GNU...
Jul 17 20:00:06 <RST38h> Segmentation fault <== expected for the first run
Jul 17 20:16:00 <n6pfk> join #openpandora
Jul 17 20:16:25 <qwerty12_N810> no thanks
Jul 17 20:25:30 <lbt> coldboot: do you know if fiferboy fixed that short-touch bug?
Jul 17 20:28:47 <RST38h> Second attempt.
Jul 17 20:31:41 <RST38h> Wow, it runs! 24fps though
Jul 17 20:32:41 <RST38h> Gotta reduce the number of memory accesses
Jul 17 20:33:41 <slonopotamus> RST38h, what the hell are you doing?
Jul 17 20:34:06 <lbt> he's twittering
Jul 17 20:35:19 <RST38h> slonopotamus: coding in assembler
Jul 17 20:35:46 <slonopotamus> RST38h, having fun? :)
Jul 17 20:37:42 <woglinde> rst 24 fps a game?
Jul 17 20:38:30 <slonopotamus> woglinde, 24 fps assembler!
Jul 17 20:39:12 <RST38h> woglinde: kinda...
Jul 17 20:39:19 <RST38h> woglinde: GBA rotated screen mode
Jul 17 20:39:39 <coldboot> Should compiling in armel go just as fast as compiling in i386?
Jul 17 20:40:56 <RST38h> colboot: No
Jul 17 20:41:43 <RST38h> If you are using SB to compile armel binaries, your GCC will run on top of Qemu
Jul 17 20:41:56 <RST38h> And native armel compilation is just slow because your device is slow
Jul 17 20:45:58 <slonopotamus> bullshit!
Jul 17 20:46:12 <slonopotamus> native compilation is ok
Jul 17 20:46:35 <slonopotamus> just don't write slow programs
Jul 17 20:47:29 <woglinde> *g*
Jul 17 20:48:13 <RST38h> yes, limit yourself to Hello World please
Jul 17 20:48:21 <RST38h> fewer bugs this way too
Jul 17 20:49:34 <coldboot> RST38h: So right now the armel compiler is going really slow, it's probably not on top of qemu. I've had this problem before, but I don't know what causes it.
Jul 17 20:49:42 <coldboot> RST38h: This is in sb2.
Jul 17 20:52:09 <slonopotamus> RST38h, gcc is far from hello world, it isn't slow on n800
Jul 17 20:55:40 <Jaffa> RST38h: I thought Scratchbox 1, compiling to armel, used a cross-compiling x86 gcc
Jul 17 20:55:56 <coldboot> Who works on Scratchbox 2?
Jul 17 20:55:59 <javispedro> and I believe this is the case
Jul 17 20:56:14 <coldboot> What's an easy way to tell if the right compiler is being used?
Jul 17 20:56:20 <Jaffa> coldboot: One man and his dog, it seems.
Jul 17 20:56:22 <Jaffa> ;-)
Jul 17 20:56:42 <javispedro> gcc -v should print interesting things
Jul 17 20:57:25 <milhouse> So is this legit? http://www.intomobile.com/2009/07/16/first-non-nokia-device-to-ship-with-maemo-hits-the-market-optima-op5-e.html
Jul 17 20:58:04 <Jaffa> milhouse: "legit"?
Jul 17 20:58:16 <milhouse> official?
Jul 17 20:58:22 <milhouse> or a chinese knock-off?
Jul 17 20:58:26 <Jaffa> Legal, real or useful?
Jul 17 20:58:39 <Jaffa> It's using bits of Chinook, according to Stskeeps (who's looked at the initfs)
Jul 17 20:58:48 <milhouse> Legal & Real - I barely considered Maemo 4 useful...
Jul 17 20:58:56 <javispedro> and the copyrighted firefox icon
Jul 17 20:59:10 <Jaffa> No word from Nokia if they've licenced the Maemo trademark, for example
Jul 17 20:59:14 <coldboot> javispedro: Here's what I get form scratchbox 2 in both targets: http://pastie.org/549887
Jul 17 20:59:21 <Jaffa> So, I guess it's mostly a knock-off.
Jul 17 20:59:48 <milhouse> shame if it's a knock-off - it would certainly help maemo to have more device support
Jul 17 20:59:58 <milhouse> s/device/official device/
Jul 17 20:59:58 <infobot> milhouse meant: shame if it's a knock-off - it would certainly help maemo to have more official device support
Jul 17 21:00:18 <Jaffa> There've been lots of Chinese names on maemo-* recently.
Jul 17 21:00:40 <Jaffa> It could be legally licensed; Nokia aren't going to tell us (although there's no press release)
Jul 17 21:01:00 <qwerty12_N810> They have a repo for the clones: http://www.woojoy.com/repository/pool/free/
Jul 17 21:01:02 <milhouse> could make long-term OS support interesting - not so easy to EOL a version due to a Nokia hardware change if other manufacturers are supporting the platform
Jul 17 21:01:08 <Jaffa> Would be good to get them involved in Mer, then they can have what they've got legally.
Jul 17 21:01:32 <Jaffa> milhouse: Indeed. Last word on it at OSiM from Ari Jaaksi was that they weren't interested in licencing Maemo
Jul 17 21:01:42 <milhouse> I'm beginning to wonder if there is space for so many mobile operating systems
Jul 17 21:02:10 <milhouse> iPhone, Symbian, Android, WebOS, Maemo, Mer... can they all survive?
Jul 17 21:02:39 <milhouse> Win Mob... I've probably forgotten one or two more as well
Jul 17 21:02:47 <javispedro> dunno coldboot, mines clearly say  --host=i386-linux --target=arm-none-linux-gnueabi
Jul 17 21:03:28 <Jaffa> milhouse: OpenMoko, all the proprietary SE & Motorola & ... OSes
Jul 17 21:03:36 <coldboot> javispedro: So mine is the wrong version, it's not a cross-compiler...
Jul 17 21:03:52 <RST38h> Jaffa: I seem to remember that you could use "native" tools or "host" tools
Jul 17 21:04:10 <milhouse> Jaffa: Ah yes, although SE seem to be heading down the Android route, and are Motorola still in the game?
Jul 17 21:04:11 <RST38h> Jaffa: But I also remember SB2 guys turning off "host" tools option
Jul 17 21:04:47 <Jaffa> RST38h: Really? Blimey. (I did caveat my original stmt with sb1 ;-))
Jul 17 21:05:05 <Jaffa> milhouse: Goodness knows. Last few phones have been low-level Linux based, FWIW.
Jul 17 21:05:28 <javispedro> it _should_ use host tools, at least maemo sdk 2 promoted that you could install newer versions of "Host tools" with less effort than in sb1
Jul 17 21:06:11 <Jaffa> javispedro: Given the pain with using the "official" Maemo SDK, I've never thought it worth the effort to suffer /more/ pain for an unofficial SDK based on sb2...
Jul 17 21:06:38 <javispedro> I'm yet to experience that "pain" :)
Jul 17 21:06:41 <coldboot> javispedro: So I can install tools and toolchains.
Jul 17 21:06:52 <milhouse> This Chinese Optima device is using a Marvell PXA320 processor... if they can get Fremantle running on this thing it might go a long way to solving the problems getting Fremantle to run on N8x0
Jul 17 21:06:58 <milhouse> (maybe)
Jul 17 21:07:01 <coldboot> javispedro: For tools I get etch, etch-2008, lenny-2009-1
Jul 17 21:07:18 <Jaffa> milhouse: What problems getting Fremantle running on the N8x0? Mer already has most of it running on a 770.
Jul 17 21:07:55 <coldboot> javispedro: For toolchain I get: arm-2005q3, arm-2007q3, i386-2007q3
Jul 17 21:08:13 <milhouse> Jaffa: Based on what Nokia have said - I don't know if the problems are real or marketing bs
Jul 17 21:08:35 <javispedro> I'm using etch-2008 and the 2007-q3... but on sb1, so I don't really know what to suggest ...
Jul 17 21:08:55 <milhouse> marketing bs as in "prematurely end of life a bunch of devices so that the suckers will go out and buy the new kit"
Jul 17 21:09:38 <Jaffa> milhouse: Nokia aren't backporting Fremantle because of wanting to use Clutter & effects to define the look of Fremantle: no accelerated 3D on N8x0 and slower CPU make that "real"
Jul 17 21:10:22 <milhouse> Jaffa: Fair enough - I guess the Chinese guys will have designed a reasonable 3D engine into their PXA320 device
Jul 17 21:10:34 <milhouse> Jaffa: which might make Fremantle feasible
Jul 17 21:10:53 <javispedro> and I'm sure whatever drivers they get will be of superior quality than whatever driver we may get ;)
Jul 17 21:11:01 <Jaffa> javispedro: No sb1 pain? Wow.
Jul 17 21:11:20 <javispedro> Jaffa, I'm intrigued. What did you hate about sb1?
Jul 17 21:11:30 <qwerty12_N810> milhouse: They're using chinook - I don't think they're concerned about updates...
Jul 17 21:12:14 <milhouse> qwerty: haha
Jul 17 21:13:57 <Jaffa> javispedro: It's probably more Nokia's use of it than the tool. The multiple install steps; the lack of quality in the SDK (all the warnings on starting af-sb-init.sh, for example; no clean upgrade path; no consideration for easily installing rootstraps into existing installs (e.g. having diablo & fremantle: works; but instructions not good); having to upgrade sb when upgrading SDK - blurred lines)
Jul 17 21:14:16 <javispedro> ok :P
Jul 17 21:14:29 <Jaffa> What else, massive disk space use; poor x86-64 support; no Mac support so limits developers to x86 Linux users; ...
Jul 17 21:14:32 <Jaffa> I could go on ;-)
Jul 17 21:14:36 <javispedro> I myself just get latest Apophis
Jul 17 21:14:55 <javispedro> then install it on vmware since I'm not going to disable vdso ;)
Jul 17 21:15:16 <Jaffa> Yeah, the instructions don't make it clear what turning off vdso will do
Jul 17 21:15:35 <javispedro> apart from destroy any hope for performance you had on your workstation, dunno :D
Jul 17 21:16:40 <coldboot> javispedro: I don't get it, I set my toolchain to the arm one, when the arm rootstrap was set.
Jul 17 21:16:53 <Jaffa> javispedro: Yeah, but NOkia don't tell you that
Jul 17 21:17:00 <coldboot> javispedro: It says that the target is arm, and the compiler is i486, but gcc -v says the same thing, and compiling is extremely slow.
Jul 17 21:17:45 <javispedro> coldboot, may it be that's just sb2 usual slowness?
Jul 17 21:18:02 <javispedro> it is a known "to do" afaik
Jul 17 21:18:57 <coldboot> javispedro: It's only for arm, it's orders of magnitude slower than i386.
Jul 17 21:19:06 <RST38h> 32fps
Jul 17 21:19:37 <javispedro> guess what? try to compile anything, and then ps ax  to see if there's some qemu-user loaded
Jul 17 21:19:44 * RST38h once again wins, ARM and its weak memory performance lose
Jul 17 21:20:31 <coldboot> javispedro: 32235 pts/4    S+     0:00 /usr/bin/sb2-qemu-arm -U LD_PRELOAD -L / -0 g++ /usr/bin/g++
Jul 17 21:20:54 <javispedro> there you have :D now try to guess why it's doing that
Jul 17 21:21:59 <coldboot> javispedro: I don't know if that's the host arm compiler compiling to arm, or the host i386 compiler.
Jul 17 21:22:16 <javispedro> that's the arm emulated compiler
Jul 17 21:22:45 <coldboot> What would the host i386 to arm compiler look like?
Jul 17 21:23:21 <javispedro> for a start, it will not begin with "sb2-qemu-arm"
Jul 17 21:24:29 <coldboot> Do all invocations get intercepted and run by sb2-qemu-arm unless they're gcc, when everything's working right?
Jul 17 21:25:31 * slonopotamus just builds on tablet without any pain
Jul 17 21:26:22 * RST38h asks the Tentacled One to give his ARM two more registers
Jul 17 21:26:45 <javispedro> coldboot, sb2-qemu-arm intercepts all armel binaries trying to be exec'd using binfmt
Jul 17 21:26:52 <javispedro> not only gcc
Jul 17 21:27:00 <Jaffa> javispedro: We should get a really lightweight image together which runs enough to export NFS/SSHFS with a recent Scratchbox. Then installation becomes: get Scratchbox image, install preferred rootstraps and cross-mount filesystems.
Jul 17 21:27:22 <Jaffa> Although once Rover's released, I think I'll do more on-device building (lots of disk, faster processor)
Jul 17 21:28:04 <javispedro> I am currently doing just that :D
Jul 17 21:28:09 <coldboot> javispedro: And what's supposed to happen when gcc gets run?
Jul 17 21:28:29 <coldboot> javispedro: Since it's supposed to run an i386 executable.
Jul 17 21:28:39 <javispedro> mutual nfs : host mounts vmware, vmware mounts host: I can modify scratchbox's rootstraps from host, scratchbox's home is host's
Jul 17 21:28:51 <Jaffa> javispedro: I'm imagining an image with no X or anything. If you've got a really lightweight starting point, I'd love to see it
Jul 17 21:28:54 <Jaffa> javispedro: Sounds good
Jul 17 21:28:56 <javispedro> I cannot get more "out of the box" than hat
Jul 17 21:29:01 <javispedro> *that
Jul 17 21:29:06 <javispedro> *It
Jul 17 21:29:10 <javispedro> darn typos ;)
Jul 17 21:29:45 <Jaffa> The "Maemo Development Appliance" approach appeared sensible but: a) it provides a second desktop; I want to use my own; b) distributing Nokia's SDK is shaky and more work.
Jul 17 21:30:40 <javispedro> Jaffa, unfortunately minimal build-capable Debian is around ~1GiB
Jul 17 21:30:50 <Jaffa> Hmm.
Jul 17 21:31:01 <javispedro> but will easily fill up to ~3 Gib (not really sure if minimal is enough)
Jul 17 21:31:11 * Jaffa wonders about Ubuntu JeOS would be better
Jul 17 21:31:15 <javispedro> then each rootstrap is around ~0.5GiB
Jul 17 21:32:01 * Jaffa imagines: provide Scratchbox image and tools available for download; and instructions for installing the various rootstraps.
Jul 17 21:32:18 <Jaffa> + workstation setup for Windows, OSX and Linux
Jul 17 21:32:35 <Jaffa> And then, bingo, I've also got a summit talk ;-)
Jul 17 21:32:42 <javispedro> lol
Jul 17 21:32:52 <javispedro> lbt was doing something interesting too, using obs
Jul 17 21:33:11 <Jaffa> Yeah, must speak to him about that too
Jul 17 21:33:15 <lbt> m
Jul 17 21:33:30 * lbt shakes his head to try and clear it
Jul 17 21:33:37 <lbt> Qt + gi
Jul 17 21:33:39 <lbt> t
Jul 17 21:33:40 <lbt> ugh
Jul 17 21:38:53 <javispedro> this is the problem with Java: the BIG-optimized OpenJDK has nearly 30MiB footprint.
Jul 17 21:39:11 <javispedro> the jalimo team has done a pretty good job, with less than 15MiB
Jul 17 21:39:54 <ds3> do you really want full java vs J2ME stuff?
Jul 17 21:39:59 <Jaffa> javispedro: Seen the work Sun's doing with Project Jigsaw and the Java SE Embedded work
Jul 17 21:40:05 * Jaffa wants full Java.
Jul 17 21:40:15 * javispedro wants full Java too.
Jul 17 21:40:38 * lbt wants perl
Jul 17 21:41:02 <javispedro> the Embedded JRE, as installed on my tablet, is 46 MiB
Jul 17 21:41:05 * lbt wants perl running on parrot
Jul 17 21:43:21 <coldboot> javispedro: I've found `maemo-sdk enter devel`, but it says it can't find some instruction while compiling.
Jul 17 21:44:30 * javispedro does not remember the maemo sdk 2 manual
Jul 17 21:44:41 <javispedro> either way if you feel your setup is fscked... you know :D
Jul 17 21:44:45 <javispedro> reinstall ;)
Jul 17 21:45:07 <coldboot> javispedro: I'm not sure if it ever worked. I've also been tracking it in git the whole time.
Jul 17 21:45:29 <ds3> why full java?
Jul 17 21:46:32 * ShadowJK wants java me :-)
Jul 17 21:47:08 <ds3> I have had mix experience with java stuff - the doc converter thing for palm worked okay but the latest experience with a GPX viewer was painful... it kept running out of memory and the app would just silently fail
Jul 17 21:48:50 <ShadowJK> opera mini seems to scale with available memory quite well :/
Jul 17 21:49:40 <glass> vm doesn't matter if the coder of the java app is stupid
Jul 17 21:50:34 <javispedro> language doesn't matter. as the old saying goes, you can code fortran in any language ;)
Jul 17 21:50:53 <glass> ye :p
Jul 17 21:55:07 <Luke-Jr> )#()@
Jul 17 21:55:24 <Luke-Jr> my life is the most suck possible
Jul 17 22:10:09 <|thunder> Hi all, I Just got my google voice account all setup. So I decided that it was time I got my gizmo SIP account setup in my maemo account so I can send and recieve sip calls via "Internet Call" and the red/green status bar icon.
Jul 17 22:10:55 <|thunder> So, I got that all set up... Now all of my incoming calls to my google voice number are forwarded to my internet tablet SIP account
Jul 17 22:11:20 <|thunder> But in order to make a call I have to use the Grand Central dialer or the google voice website
Jul 17 22:12:05 <|thunder> Does anyone know if it is possible to use gizmo SIP for incoming calls and use Google Voice for outgoing calls without using grand central program or the google site ?
Jul 17 22:12:24 <|thunder> is there a way to send all outgoing calls through google voice rather than through gizmo which costs money ?
Jul 17 22:12:47 <mavhc> and can I fake being in usa to sign up to gVoice?
Jul 17 22:12:59 <|thunder> probably
Jul 17 22:13:10 <|thunder> I was on a waiting list for almost a year
Jul 17 22:13:17 <|thunder> and im in US
Jul 17 22:13:18 <|thunder> lol
Jul 17 22:13:50 <mavhc> I got an invite
Jul 17 22:14:36 <amr-> anyone know where the status(?) icon for xchat is located?
Jul 17 22:25:50 <|thunder> amr-; its in my status tray
Jul 17 22:26:01 <amr-> i mean
Jul 17 22:26:02 <amr-> the actual file
Jul 17 22:26:03 <amr-> heh
Jul 17 22:26:07 <|thunder> lol...
Jul 17 22:26:10 <amr-> i want to make it black and white
Jul 17 22:26:19 <|thunder> /etc/share/pixmaps or something
Jul 17 22:27:19 <|thunder> /usr/share i meant
Jul 17 22:27:28 <amr-> yeah i figured
Jul 17 22:27:28 <amr-> :p
Jul 17 22:27:29 <amr-> ty
Jul 17 22:29:17 <|thunder> find it ?
Jul 17 22:29:23 <amr-> yep, ty
Jul 17 22:29:28 <|thunder> cool
Jul 17 22:29:38 <amr-> anyone know of an ftpd for maemo?
Jul 17 22:29:39 <amr-> :D
Jul 17 22:29:55 <amr-> oh there is proftpd apparently
Jul 17 22:31:02 <rkirti> ~seen vimzard
Jul 17 22:31:04 <infobot> vimzard <n=arunc@203.199.213.3> was last seen on IRC in channel #gsoc, 88d 3h 40m 52s ago, saying: 'sid0: :-P'.
Jul 17 22:31:12 <rkirti> D'oh
Jul 17 22:37:36 <daniel32708> Guys, when I try to format my external 8gb SD,  in my N810, using the "File manager", it gives me an error "memory card corrupted or unformatted" so i try to format it but then it tells me "unable to format - memory card in use"  but it is not in use....   can u guys please help me?   i wish there was a g-parted  type of thing, is there?
Jul 17 22:39:18 <javispedro> so what? remove it and format using whatever computer you like
Jul 17 22:39:37 <daniel32708> i got no sdhc in my other memory card readers
Jul 17 22:40:10 <javispedro> then use usb cable
Jul 17 22:40:22 <javispedro> but remember to reboot/power off instead of just unplugging if you modify the partition table
Jul 17 22:40:31 <daniel32708> i did, but my pc doesnt let me mount it
Jul 17 22:41:07 <javispedro> but you don't have g-parted or some other partition manager on your pc?
Jul 17 22:41:09 <daniel32708> is there a gparted for maemo?  or an equivalent?
Jul 17 22:42:29 <daniel32708> ok, gparted in my pc found it... ill try formatting there
Jul 17 22:42:42 <daniel32708> but still it would be cool to have gparted in the maemo hehe
Jul 17 22:43:26 <ShadowJK> There's parted in the repos, though that's not gparted.
Jul 17 22:43:34 <daniel32708> what formats can the n810 read?  only  fats?   or can it use ext2,3 or 4?
Jul 17 22:43:40 <daniel32708> foe the external sd that is
Jul 17 22:43:52 <daniel32708> shadow: thx!
Jul 17 22:44:31 <ShadowJK> I'd probably do N8x0-as-card-reader and use desktop machine myself :)
Jul 17 22:44:48 <daniel32708> yeah thats what am doing now
Jul 17 22:45:07 <ShadowJK> Make sure you're not wiping your harddrive.
Jul 17 22:45:12 <daniel32708> but can it read the memory card if i format it as an ext2,3 or 4?
Jul 17 22:45:16 <daniel32708> or only fatts?
Jul 17 22:45:52 <ShadowJK> I think it can do ext2 atleast
Jul 17 22:46:01 <ShadowJK> It takes about 2 minutes to find out..
Jul 17 22:46:13 <daniel32708> yeah lol
Jul 17 22:46:17 <daniel32708> ill try
Jul 17 22:47:10 <daniel32708> lets see what happens
Jul 17 22:47:15 <daniel32708> i am doint an ext3
Jul 17 22:49:51 <jhford> is it possible to get anything more useful out of the nokia during startup other than the nokia logo?
Jul 17 22:50:02 <jhford> a standard linux start thing would be heaven
Jul 17 22:50:57 <ShadowJK> "standard linux start" these days is $distro logo...
Jul 17 22:51:15 <jhford> ok.  old school one :P
Jul 17 22:51:36 <daniel32708> i would love to have a login screen
Jul 17 22:51:44 <daniel32708> has any body done something like that?
Jul 17 22:51:44 <qwerty12_N810> jhford: http://wiki.maemo.org/Advanced_booting#Boot_messages
Jul 17 22:51:56 <jhford> awesome!
Jul 17 22:53:43 <daniel32708> ok, ext3 didnt work
Jul 17 22:53:48 <daniel32708> lets try ext2
Jul 17 22:59:57 <daniel32708> how sad....no ext2 on external sd
Jul 17 23:07:04 <daniel32708> fat32 did work
Jul 17 23:09:18 <qwerty12_N810> Hint: There's mbcache and ext2 modules in /mnt/initfs/lib/modules/2.6.21-omap1/. Feel free to insmod them.
Jul 17 23:09:41 <daniel32708> thx
Jul 17 23:09:49 * lcuk hiccups
Jul 17 23:09:57 <qwerty12_N810> BOO!
Jul 17 23:10:01 <lcuk> :O
Jul 17 23:10:12 <lcuk> u scared me
Jul 17 23:10:17 * lcuk hiccups again
Jul 17 23:10:26 <daniel32708> i love thenokia n810!!!
Jul 17 23:10:43 <lcuk> :) yes daniel32708
Jul 17 23:22:12 <lcuk> whats people moved to now piratebay is defunct
Jul 17 23:24:58 <javispedro> lcuk: well, they sold out after all. not that it does matter, considering legal pressure I would've done same.
Jul 17 23:25:54 <lcuk> so are all the users gonna stay there, or is theres a new playground to try?
Jul 17 23:26:35 <javispedro> i assume it's just a matter of time and waiting for "the guy with the balls" ;)
Jul 17 23:26:52 <lcuk> wazd?
Jul 17 23:26:52 <crashanddie> lcuk, mininova, isohunt, torrentreactor, btjunkie (BT IS MADE OUT OF JUNKIES)
Jul 17 23:27:00 * qwerty12_N810 has a demonoid account that he should use more
Jul 17 23:27:08 <lcuk> accounts?
Jul 17 23:27:16 <crashanddie> lcuk, dmnd is invite only
Jul 17 23:27:17 <lcuk> you willingly sign up for accounts?
Jul 17 23:27:31 <qwerty12_N810> No, the one but I may have invites, let me check
Jul 17 23:27:33 <crashanddie> lcuk, yes, you know the thing that lets you sign in?
Jul 17 23:27:35 <lcuk> ive heard of mininova
Jul 17 23:27:37 <javispedro> private torrents? you don't leech? :P
Jul 17 23:27:59 <crashanddie> javispedro, I have my upload limit set to -20% and 1 minute after torrent completes
Jul 17 23:28:09 <qwerty12_N810> javispedro: my dl ratio > ul :\
Jul 17 23:28:17 <crashanddie> I am secretly hoping illegal downloads will stop while still using the system
Jul 17 23:28:30 <javispedro> my dl:ul ratio is something like 300:1
Jul 17 23:28:33 <lcuk> javispedro, before bit torrent there was directconnect and dc++ etc, :) there are hubs around which require 100s of gb of stuff to enter
Jul 17 23:28:47 <javispedro> but that's because I'm subscribed to the national provider of VADSL
Jul 17 23:28:48 <crashanddie> waste!
Jul 17 23:28:55 <lcuk> but no registration, self governed and whilst large, its under radar :)
Jul 17 23:29:04 <lcuk> waste is even smaller scale
Jul 17 23:29:05 <javispedro> VERY asimmetric digital subscriptors line ;)
Jul 17 23:29:12 <crashanddie> http://waste.sourceforge.net/
Jul 17 23:29:26 <lcuk> javispedro, your ratio shouldnt matter if you have decent stuff to share :)
Jul 17 23:29:45 <lcuk> your 1mb of upload oculd save someone waiting a month
Jul 17 23:30:22 <javispedro> doubt anyone in this world is interested in my porn^Wdata
Jul 17 23:30:29 <lcuk> crashanddie, waste would technically work well with the liqbase group ;)
Jul 17 23:30:31 <qwerty12_N810> "Uploaded: 3.53 GB" "Downloaded: 19.09 GB"
Jul 17 23:30:49 <lcuk> javispedro, do not underestimate the depravity of the person down the st
Jul 17 23:31:08 <lcuk> just remember: you are not the only one who likes midget porn
Jul 17 23:31:32 <javispedro> lcuk, god to know. i guess that makes us two now :D
Jul 17 23:31:50 <crashanddie> lcuk, it would indeed
Jul 17 23:31:50 <lcuk> 2? hell theres more - crashanddie has the biggest collection ever
Jul 17 23:31:57 <qwerty12_N810> Meh. Lanky porn is where it's at.
Jul 17 23:32:17 <crashanddie> I only do eunuch gay porn
Jul 17 23:32:22 <lcuk> thats not lanky porn, thats you watching with wrong aspect ratio again
Jul 17 23:32:27 <crashanddie> well, eunuch gay midget porn
Jul 17 23:33:05 <qwerty12_N810> Oh, I can make invite codes. Anyone want?
Jul 17 23:33:51 <lcuk> invite codes to eunuch get midget porn sites?
Jul 17 23:34:02 * lcuk cant type
Jul 17 23:34:09 <lcuk> gay
Jul 17 23:34:14 <crashanddie> lcuk, and will that huge collection, I like to think of myself as someone midgets can look up to
Jul 17 23:34:22 <qwerty12_N810> No, demonoid. But I'd be happy to get codes for that.
Jul 17 23:34:25 <lcuk> lol
Jul 17 23:34:41 <lcuk> i dont need to signup to anything
Jul 17 23:34:45 <lcuk> was just idle ponderment
Jul 17 23:35:03 <lcuk> holy crap - that was a mammoth trump
Jul 17 23:35:11 * lcuk needs gas mask
Jul 17 23:35:16 <crashanddie> But quite frankly, eunuch gay midget porn has too many shortcomings
Jul 17 23:35:50 <`0660> :)
Jul 17 23:37:10 * javispedro made it through his whole music library and now understands why apple markets something with 30 GiB hdd
Jul 17 23:40:19 <lcuk> javispedro, before your 30gb, my principle music selection fitting on a couple of 90min cassettes
Jul 17 23:40:56 <crashanddie> principal
Jul 17 23:42:55 * lcuk wonders why crashanddie is correcting him :P
Jul 17 23:43:06 <lcuk> my english was fine, its you lot that are screwed ;)
Jul 17 23:43:15 * lcuk says canvass and gets heckles up :D
Jul 17 23:43:17 <qwerty12_N810> it's
Jul 17 23:43:58 <crashanddie> heckled
Jul 17 23:44:14 <crashanddie> qwerty12_N810, we're actually making sentences :P
Jul 17 23:44:38 <lcuk> no, i get your heckles up by heckling you.  you have been heckled.
Jul 17 23:45:27 * lcuk ponders coding
Jul 17 23:56:13 <javispedro> forgot to recharge the nit
Jul 17 23:56:28 <javispedro> will have to leave it the whole night sucking energy
Jul 17 23:56:45 <javispedro> hope it's not in flames when I wake up
Jul 18 01:35:00 <chx> rejoice! to replace my lost N810 (cue teardrop) I just won one on eBay for 217.5bucks
Jul 18 01:46:22 <Luke-Jr> chx: fail
Jul 18 01:46:36 <chx> why
Jul 18 01:46:58 <chx> i am in Canada
Jul 18 01:48:15 <Luke-Jr> chx: N810 is fail
Jul 18 01:51:11 <chx> oh sure
Jul 18 01:51:31 <Macer> wtf
Jul 18 01:51:37 <chx> please tell me what other device is there that can be had under 300 bucks delivered with a 4" 800x480 res  screen that runs Linux
Jul 18 01:51:55 <chx> I am not picky about the flavor of Linux.
Jul 18 01:52:08 <Luke-Jr> chx: SmartQ 7
Jul 18 01:52:16 <chx> oh i forgot to mention, yes
Jul 18 01:52:18 <chx> I need a keyboard
Jul 18 01:52:22 <Luke-Jr> chx: bluetooth
Jul 18 01:52:22 <chx> very, very badly need.
Jul 18 01:52:25 <chx> Not good
Jul 18 01:52:28 <chx> two device, fail.
Jul 18 01:52:32 <Luke-Jr> chx: Zaurus SL-C860
Jul 18 01:52:44 <Luke-Jr> oh, only 640x480
Jul 18 01:52:45 <Luke-Jr> good enough
Jul 18 01:53:02 <Luke-Jr> make the SmartQ + keyboard into 1 device
Jul 18 01:53:06 <Luke-Jr> shoudln't be too hard
Jul 18 01:53:12 <chx> call me back when that happens
Jul 18 01:53:21 <chx> also? isnt the SmartQ some noname chinese product?
Jul 18 01:53:24 <chx> I am wary
Jul 18 01:53:35 <Luke-Jr> better than a bad-name american product
Jul 18 01:53:36 <chx> Having the N810 on me is sometimes mission critical.
Jul 18 01:53:53 <chx> And for the few weeks I had it , it was pure joy
Jul 18 01:54:04 <Luke-Jr> chx: you must not use the GPS
Jul 18 01:54:06 <chx> it runs Skype and ssh and there are many, many characters visible in the SSH window
Jul 18 01:54:09 <chx> I dont
Jul 18 01:54:15 <chx> I have a Holux M1200 reciever
Jul 18 01:54:17 <Luke-Jr> I see.
Jul 18 01:54:25 <chx> You can't beat that receiver if you are walking
Jul 18 01:54:26 <Luke-Jr> I suppose if you don't need the GPS it might be tolerable.
Jul 18 01:54:31 <chx> no, I dont.
Jul 18 01:54:50 <chx> no matter what they build in , they cant beat the M1200 anyways, so why bother?
Jul 18 01:54:55 <Luke-Jr> haha
Jul 18 01:55:10 <Luke-Jr> but does the M1200 run Linux? ;)
Jul 18 01:55:16 <chx> ????
Jul 18 01:55:19 <chx> it does not run anything
Jul 18 01:55:24 <chx> it's the size of an usb key
Jul 18 01:55:41 <chx> it sits in the backpack and feeds GPS over BT
Jul 18 01:55:46 <chx> feeds my phone , feeds my N810
Jul 18 01:55:55 <chx> not at the same time, but as necessary
Jul 18 01:56:05 <Luke-Jr> I see.
Jul 18 01:56:14 <Luke-Jr> but it must run something
Jul 18 01:56:24 <Luke-Jr> dumb hardware can't do bluetooth, can it?
Jul 18 01:56:26 <chx> btw the MTK MT3318 chipset is so much better than the sifr iii for pedestrians
Jul 18 01:56:27 <Luke-Jr> certainly not GPS O.o
Jul 18 01:56:38 <Luke-Jr> who said anything about sirf iii?
Jul 18 01:56:49 <chx> well, that's the only usable chip besides the MTK
Jul 18 01:56:57 <chx> I only Nokia uses some crap in E90 and N810
Jul 18 01:57:03 <chx> that's why i said, why bother?
Jul 18 01:57:09 <chx> I dont care about the GPS
Jul 18 01:57:12 <chx> I agree it's a fail.
Jul 18 01:57:14 <Luke-Jr> N810 has a GPS5300 chip
Jul 18 01:57:15 <chx> So what?
Jul 18 01:57:19 <chx> It's not perfect.
Jul 18 01:57:20 <Luke-Jr> which has potential, if we could get docs
Jul 18 01:57:32 <chx> Aside from the GPS chip, the device rocks.
Jul 18 01:57:50 <chx> It's only now that I had it and suffered a week without it I see how hard it rocked.
Jul 18 01:57:54 <chx> So I bought another.
Jul 18 01:57:59 <Luke-Jr> heh
Jul 18 01:58:06 <chx> sitting on a bike in the gym
Jul 18 01:58:10 <chx> and being able to Skype chat
Jul 18 01:58:12 <chx> that's bliss.
Jul 18 01:58:12 <Luke-Jr> well, it's about as useful as a pad of paper for me right now
Jul 18 01:58:25 <Luke-Jr> especially as there's only internet when I'm at home
Jul 18 01:58:35 <chx> As my life revolves around Skype chat and SSH
Jul 18 01:58:36 <chx> well
Jul 18 01:58:39 <Luke-Jr> and the keyboard sucks too much to make it better than going to my desktop
Jul 18 01:58:49 <chx> I would love a better keyboard of course
Jul 18 01:59:35 <chx> If i would be the DIY type, i would grab an N800 and http://shop.crackberry.com/freedom-slim-keypad/14A42A5051.htm?utm_source=GoogleProducts&utm_medium=shopping_engine&utm_campaign=GoogleProducts this
Jul 18 02:00:04 <Luke-Jr> why not SQ and that?
Jul 18 02:00:18 <chx> Luke-Jr: UM
Jul 18 02:00:25 <chx> Luke-Jr: I have severe trust issues :)
Jul 18 02:00:44 <Luke-Jr> …
Jul 18 02:00:58 <chx> also.
Jul 18 02:01:06 <chx> http://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.26366 this here is 151.51
Jul 18 02:01:52 <chx> the keyboard is above 50
Jul 18 02:01:59 <chx> not much savings over N810
Jul 18 02:02:10 <chx> what do i gain
Jul 18 02:03:38 <Luke-Jr> chx: an open platform
Jul 18 02:03:40 <Luke-Jr> http://gpsd.berlios.de/hardware.html
Jul 18 02:03:45 <Luke-Jr> Holux doesn't seem to work very well?
Jul 18 02:04:18 <chx> the M1200 is not even listed.
Jul 18 02:04:37 <chx> and I can testify that it works with both my E51 phone and the N810 happily.
Jul 18 02:04:59 <chx> I never ever tried it in "gps mouse" mode just BT
Jul 18 02:05:33 <chx> erm
Jul 18 02:05:39 <chx> i mean , i never tried the usb cable.
Jul 18 02:06:08 <Luke-Jr> chx: what does gpsd think it is?
Jul 18 02:06:24 <chx> I have absolutely no idea
Jul 18 02:06:38 <chx> As said, I have lost my N810 and just won one on eBay
Jul 18 02:06:55 <Luke-Jr> i c
Jul 18 02:07:28 <Luke-Jr> how long does the battery last?
Jul 18 02:07:31 <chx> uh
Jul 18 02:07:33 <chx> a day?
Jul 18 02:07:37 <chx> dunno, really long
Jul 18 02:07:53 <chx> also, i have a pocket battery
Jul 18 02:08:18 <Luke-Jr> O.o
Jul 18 02:08:33 <Luke-Jr> chx: N810 claims to last a month :þ
Jul 18 02:08:50 <chx> erm
Jul 18 02:09:06 <chx> with the GPS receiver and the BT radio on?
Jul 18 02:09:06 <Luke-Jr> which translates to ~3 hours in reality
Jul 18 02:09:07 <Luke-Jr> lol
Jul 18 02:09:17 <Luke-Jr> dunno, BT is too complicated for me
Jul 18 02:09:22 <chx> well i guess it can standby for a month.
Jul 18 02:09:41 <chx> with the wifi and the bt radios off, the cpu and the ram consumes miniscule amounts of power.
Jul 18 02:09:55 <Luke-Jr> yay, it can be useless for a month!
Jul 18 02:09:57 <Luke-Jr> XD
Jul 18 02:10:02 <chx> no
Jul 18 02:10:19 <chx> for me the N810 is the reassurance that i can leave my post any time i wish
Jul 18 02:10:28 <chx> and if i get a call , i can immediately SSH in
Jul 18 02:10:30 <chx> it's freedom
Jul 18 02:10:38 <Luke-Jr> if you happen to be near an AP
Jul 18 02:10:46 <chx> I am always near an AP, my friend
Jul 18 02:10:56 <Luke-Jr> so not really freedom
Jul 18 02:11:02 <Luke-Jr> freedom within a very small area
Jul 18 02:11:07 <chx> I have a Nokia E51, I told you, and that a) works as a BT modem for the N810 b) runs JoikuSpot.
Jul 18 02:11:13 <Luke-Jr> oh, right
Jul 18 02:11:48 <chx> so there is always broadband wherever i go
Jul 18 02:12:02 <Luke-Jr> with a low cap?
Jul 18 02:12:12 <chx> 6gb?
Jul 18 02:12:15 <chx> a month?
Jul 18 02:12:16 <Luke-Jr> yeah, low XD
Jul 18 02:12:19 <chx> um
Jul 18 02:12:37 <chx> that's a crapload of ssh and skype im traffic :p
Jul 18 02:12:57 <chx> ok, so i browse a little too, yeah
Jul 18 02:12:58 <chx> and...?
Jul 18 02:13:12 <chx> i leave the broadband guzzling tasks for my desktop
Jul 18 02:13:22 <chx> i cant watch 1080p movies on the N810 anyways :p
Jul 18 02:13:44 <Luke-Jr> 6 GB/mo is 2.42 KB/sec
Jul 18 02:13:59 <chx> if you use it 30*86400 sec then yes
Jul 18 02:14:13 <chx> but if you use it for a few ten hours the whole month?
Jul 18 02:14:27 <Luke-Jr> hmm
Jul 18 02:14:39 <chx> i do NOT need high speed, i need low latency
Jul 18 02:15:01 <chx> what i do, i could do on dialup, and i actually did
Jul 18 02:15:09 <chx> back then it was Unix talk
Jul 18 02:15:15 <chx> but not much else changed :p
Jul 18 02:15:24 <Luke-Jr> dialup is faster than 6 GB/mo ;)
Jul 18 02:17:03 <chx> Luke-Jr: you have a strange view :p
Jul 18 02:18:37 <Luke-Jr> chx: perhaps I am too idealistic
Jul 18 02:18:51 <chx> perhaps
Jul 18 02:19:00 <chx> i spent *years* yearning after the perfect device
Jul 18 02:19:05 <chx> It never happened
Jul 18 02:19:11 <chx> so I am happy with the N810
Jul 18 02:19:14 <Luke-Jr> heh
Jul 18 02:20:08 <chx> as i said above, if you say ' i need at least 480 vertical lines, a keyboard and skype '
Jul 18 02:20:18 <chx> there are aint many devices in this world.
Jul 18 02:21:17 <Luke-Jr> I am personally anti-Skype
Jul 18 02:21:26 <chx> the Sony X1 got so close to be ideal
Jul 18 02:21:37 <Luke-Jr> as far as I am concerned, it is a proprietary non-standards compliant and trojan-like VoIP app
Jul 18 02:21:47 <chx> but I felt violated when i touched the Windows OS
Jul 18 02:21:51 <chx> I ... can't.
Jul 18 02:22:13 <chx> now, if they release one with Android...
Jul 18 02:22:13 <Luke-Jr> install Gentoo on it :þ
Jul 18 02:22:17 <chx> ????
Jul 18 02:22:23 <chx> you can run Linux on the Xperia X1?????????
Jul 18 02:22:33 <Luke-Jr> I imagine.
Jul 18 02:23:22 <Luke-Jr> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_MrWIxDMCsE
Jul 18 02:24:28 <Luke-Jr> that video sucks
Jul 18 02:24:29 <Luke-Jr> XD
Jul 18 02:26:40 <chx> oh and Samsung Omnia Pro . Also WinMo.
Jul 18 02:26:55 <chx> The time will come when all these devices run Android
Jul 18 02:27:09 <chx> and then people just root them to run a full Linux :D
Jul 18 02:33:33 <GAN8001> Or just use Maemo.
Jul 18 02:33:36 <GAN8001> No rooting required.
Jul 18 02:34:08 <Luke-Jr> I imagine Android is at least better than Maemo
Jul 18 02:34:20 <GeneralAntilles> Yeah, funny.
Jul 18 02:34:30 * GeneralAntilles needs to revisit the ignore plan.
Jul 18 02:40:27 <disco_stu> hi everybody
Jul 18 02:43:37 <disco_stu> GeneralAntilles, when advaced-battery is installed is there a way to remove the original battery icon ?
Jul 18 02:43:46 <disco_stu> i mean hide it from the tray
Jul 18 02:43:54 <GeneralAntilles> Kill the .desktop file for it.
Jul 18 02:44:05 <disco_stu> i see
Jul 18 02:44:10 <disco_stu> GeneralAntilles, thx
Jul 18 02:44:16 <GeneralAntilles>  /usr/share/something
Jul 18 02:46:39 <disco_stu> GeneralAntilles, when you said kill you mean a proccess ?
Jul 18 02:46:48 <GeneralAntilles> No, delete or move the .desktop
Jul 18 02:47:11 <disco_stu> ok
Jul 18 02:48:58 <disco_stu> GeneralAntilles, done.. thanks
Jul 18 02:58:39 <disco_stu> GeneralAntilles, instead of deleting it I hacked it, so now i can disable it in control panel
Jul 18 02:58:53 <GeneralAntilles> That works too
**** ENDING LOGGING AT Sat Jul 18 02:59:56 2009