**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Thu Sep 24 09:12:04 2009 Sep 24 09:15:23 lcuk: what have you done :) Sep 24 09:15:39 lcuk: heya :) Sep 24 09:18:09 Hi ! Sep 24 09:18:56 wazd :'( it wasnt me Sep 24 09:19:02 hi! khertan! Sep 24 09:30:06 Italian police and "reptile wranglers" have seized a 1.7-metre-long crocodile allegedly used by a Naples Mafia boss to "intimidate" extortion victims. Sep 24 09:30:23 o_O Sep 24 09:30:43 RST38h: heya :) Sep 24 09:31:04 hello to you too Sep 24 09:31:25 anbody know some java channel of irc ? Sep 24 09:31:29 RST38h: they sent it to rehab \o/ Sep 24 09:31:55 crocs on coke? Sep 24 09:32:38 that is going to be by secondary ingestion Sep 24 09:32:54 ./lis Sep 24 09:32:56 ./list Sep 24 09:34:47 bubill331: you can try writing commands without dots in front with /say or /quote Sep 24 09:35:02 /say /msg gomiam Something like this. Sep 24 09:36:53 btw, M-R Maemo5 review is out Sep 24 09:37:04 nothing serious as expected Sep 24 09:37:43 wazd: Same stuff - no portrait, no MMS Sep 24 09:38:01 RST38h: no office editor :D Sep 24 09:38:03 wazd: "Wait for firmware v3, like iPhone" Sep 24 09:38:17 Doesn't DataWiz provide that? Sep 24 09:40:57 Pretty funny to see who he has added to contacts :) Sep 24 09:41:55 and fake appointments :D Sep 24 09:42:19 "Download M6 build" elouel :) Sep 24 09:42:33 is it out in english yet? Sep 24 09:44:08 X-Fade: no Quim and Jussi though :) Sep 24 10:02:43 frals: tomorrow Sep 24 10:03:02 roger, thanks :) Sep 24 10:03:05 frals: Although I guess we can translate it to English, if it is really needed Sep 24 10:03:46 There isn't much new though. He loves the address book. He gives passing grade to the browser, saying that "iphone is still better" Sep 24 10:04:04 just curious if he says what fw/sw version hes using and what the current is Sep 24 10:04:08 hi. i was wondering... which are the drivers of n900 that are closed src? Sep 24 10:04:12 better because it has portrait view Sep 24 10:04:13 Hates the phone (says phone dropped 3G calls in Korea and has some UI problems) Sep 24 10:04:21 frals: He admitted of using 34.14 Sep 24 10:04:27 frals: I.e. August Sep 24 10:04:37 ok ty Sep 24 10:04:55 He wants the portrait view everywhere and calls N900 a "geek device" Sep 24 10:05:05 And given Nokia are producing new builds every night, this is a very *very* old build Sep 24 10:05:25 Says nothing will be fixed until Summer 2010 when the second Fremantle device is apparently due Sep 24 10:05:43 Looks like he is either not aware of SSU or has chosen to ignore it Sep 24 10:06:03 34-14 geez Sep 24 10:06:27 Jaffa: I can produce builds every night with a script, it is not any indication of improvement. Still, August is kinda far off Sep 24 10:06:58 Ah, almost forgot: he wants the MMS :) Sep 24 10:07:01 RST38h: Yes, of course. But the point is they are working on it again Sep 24 10:07:06 still. Sep 24 10:07:07 whatever. Sep 24 10:07:25 And apparently thinks that adding portrait mode is so "hard" Nokia only managed to do it for the Phone Sep 24 10:07:37 funny calender too Sep 24 10:07:44 aight Sep 24 10:07:56 RST38h: That is why gpodder use it too, right :D Sep 24 10:08:06 And Conboy Sep 24 10:08:21 so hes not a programmer by a long shot and assumes a bit much then Sep 24 10:08:43 You know what they say about assume :) Sep 24 10:08:50 aye :) Sep 24 10:09:10 Jaffa do you have a copy of the travel agents email for the Summit, I never got sent one :( Sep 24 10:09:19 and I need to sort out how I'm getting there Sep 24 10:10:02 on another note, serving your gf with waffles w/ whipped cream and jam scores you major points Sep 24 10:10:14 XFade: I tried explaining that to him in general terms but he is kinda jittery when presented with the facts Sep 24 10:10:24 also makes you full enough to throw up halfway thru the day :p Sep 24 10:10:57 RST38h: I wouldn't waste my time ;) Sep 24 10:11:25 RST38h: Let him have his opinion. That makes it fun. Sep 24 10:11:46 btw, any decent irc clients for the previous maemo versions out? i.e. touchfriendly? Sep 24 10:12:04 or is ssh + screen&irssi the way to do it? ;) Sep 24 10:12:19 RST38h: and he still thinks that Nokia developer and third party maemo dev are same people :) Sep 24 10:12:46 ssh + screen + irssi :P Sep 24 10:13:17 wazd: He went into full anal defense mode yesterday around midnight Sep 24 10:13:32 roger aSIMULAter ;) Sep 24 10:13:39 wazd: You should have been more polite with him, to prolong the fun =) Sep 24 10:13:41 well thsi is how i do it at least Sep 24 10:14:58 RST38h: no, seriously, he's talking crap using my quotes out of the context, and says that it should be like that Sep 24 10:15:00 yeah i figured that to be a good way, but buttons to change channels would be cool, i think, unless you remap some of the keys on the hw kboard Sep 24 10:16:08 wazd: that is normal Sep 24 10:26:07 wazd, if you dont feed the trolls he cannot take your quotes out of context Sep 24 10:26:39 frals: A while back I was considering some irssi plugins to work with maemo. Sep 24 10:26:54 such as? Sep 24 10:26:59 frals: preferably ones that would work from the other side of an ssh link. :-) Sep 24 10:27:35 pupnik: well, in maemo 4 terms, notifications when someone queries you Sep 24 10:27:47 same idea here Sep 24 10:27:59 pupnik: how far did you get? Sep 24 10:28:34 no beeping on tablet yet Sep 24 10:28:44 but beeping in urxvt Sep 24 10:28:52 thru ssh + screen Sep 24 10:29:33 cool Sep 24 10:29:34 nice. Sep 24 10:29:56 hmm not heard of this before... http://www.tomtom.com/page/openLR Sep 24 10:30:40 RST38h, mmm ? "RST38h thanks lcuk in absentia" Sep 24 10:31:04 lbt, secret project by keesj? :D Sep 24 10:31:05 beep Sep 24 10:31:12 hmm Sep 24 10:31:26 lcuk: For the accelerometer code in wiki Sep 24 10:31:33 * lcuk smiles Sep 24 10:31:44 <_berto_> is there any problem with the git server at garage ? Sep 24 10:32:41 _berto_: What's up? Sep 24 10:32:47 <_berto_> error: Cannot access URL https://git.maemo.org/projects/hildon/, return code 18 Sep 24 10:32:56 <_berto_> i cannot push anything Sep 24 10:34:16 _berto_: Ferenc seems to be working on git, I'll try to find out what the problem is. Sep 24 10:34:43 <_berto_> X-Fade: thanks Sep 24 10:35:14 ccooke you just need to get 1) irssi generating ascii bells (see config) 2) ensure screen and ssh do not mangle bells and 3) ensure that your term program (client) generates a beep on ctrÃl-g Sep 24 10:35:38 pupnik: that's not really what I wanted Sep 24 10:36:08 I'd thought of actual text notifications, and clicking on them causing irssi to be refocussed and switch to the relevant tab Sep 24 10:36:50 k. need to write irssi plugin plus maemo daemon Sep 24 10:38:27 yes Sep 24 10:38:46 it's easy enough with screen - you end up dedicating one screen window to it. Sep 24 10:39:43 makes me want some middleware Sep 24 10:40:52 like the irssi plugin, instead of using some custom protocol, could appear itself as an irssi server Sep 24 10:40:55 the simple (and ugly) way is to make a plugin that writes a logfile of events, then your daemon does an ssh+tail on the logfile and parses it for notifications... Sep 24 10:41:12 mhm Sep 24 10:41:31 s/irssi/irc/ Sep 24 10:41:56 What would make more sense, though, is irssiproxy Sep 24 10:42:59 .. Sep 24 10:43:10 * zerojay yawns Sep 24 10:43:23 everything looks like a bad compromise Sep 24 10:43:24 so you end up with an ssh to set up port forwardings, then irssi-proxy running in a screen session on the tablet. That way, the plugin can just do the maemo stuff itself Sep 24 10:43:52 pupnik: that's because everything *is* a bad compromise :-) Sep 24 10:45:29 that works Sep 24 10:45:46 just dont send stuff over wlan U dont need to Sep 24 10:46:05 save batt, i think Sep 24 10:46:12 yes. Sep 24 10:46:30 it would also be more responsive Sep 24 10:47:19 how about something more general Sep 24 10:47:48 a generic daemon for notifications? Sep 24 10:47:51 irssi plugin reroutes pms to some IM service, which could run on maemo, or phone ot anything Sep 24 10:48:09 that would be Complicated. Sep 24 10:48:34 k just pondering Sep 24 10:48:56 also, the point for me is that I like the irssi interface Sep 24 10:49:50 bah, find out how to give maemo xterm audible bell or LED flask, and im set Sep 24 10:50:07 and/or LED flash Sep 24 10:50:08 dbus Sep 24 10:50:25 pupnik: I can do it with screen... Sep 24 10:50:30 i think it might be in stty settings Sep 24 10:50:57 just attach a filter to the screen window, then trigger a bell sound every time it sees a ^a! (*shudder*) Sep 24 10:51:52 it is the law that terms handle bell character :) just got to find the setting Sep 24 10:57:48 _berto_: Is the problem still there? Sep 24 10:58:08 <_berto_> X-Fade: checkin Sep 24 10:58:36 <_berto_> X-Fade: yes Sep 24 10:58:46 <_berto_> CURLE_PARTIAL_FILE (18) A file transfer was shorter or larger than expected. This happens when the server first reports an expected transfer size, and then delivers data that doesn't match the previously given size. Sep 24 11:15:02 hello Sep 24 11:19:06 * lcuk ponders Sep 24 11:24:32 hm Sep 24 11:24:41 i would use chrome on this xp box but... Sep 24 11:24:45 chrome is still underdeveloped Sep 24 11:24:47 like android Sep 24 11:24:57 google does release some semi-good shit Sep 24 11:25:03 too bad they seem to fail on follow through Sep 24 11:25:44 i could only imagine the horror that is googleos that will be coming out Sep 24 11:26:31 * Macer installs firefox Sep 24 11:27:38 * aquatix is rather happy with what HTC did to Android with Sense Sep 24 11:28:08 in the US the tethering app was taken from the market Sep 24 11:28:14 because it is against the tmob agreement Sep 24 11:28:22 that's not Android's fault Sep 24 11:28:25 good thing i installed BEFORE it was taken off the market heh Sep 24 11:28:29 blame your stupid providers :) Sep 24 11:28:33 didn't say it was. was just saying ;) Sep 24 11:28:40 Macer: be sure to backup the .apk Sep 24 11:29:07 otoh, i really like the MoDaCo rom O:) Sep 24 11:29:07 aquatix: no need. i just won't touch the phone until the n900 comes out Sep 24 11:29:14 heh, fair enough Sep 24 11:29:23 i don't like android anyways Sep 24 11:29:30 i think mostly because of its app development Sep 24 11:29:41 and its immaturity in certain areas Sep 24 11:29:49 like the almost complete lack of bt support Sep 24 11:29:54 true Sep 24 11:30:10 the apps are sometimes horrible Sep 24 11:30:12 with a rooted phone, that's less of an issue Sep 24 11:30:16 but still an issue Sep 24 11:30:17 and its market is full of crap apps Sep 24 11:30:28 myeah, so is each other market Sep 24 11:30:29 aquatix: well. depends on the rom you are running Sep 24 11:30:48 like i have to run hidd manually (after building it myself in their sdk) Sep 24 11:30:54 in order to use a bt keyboard? Sep 24 11:31:02 what crap :) Sep 24 11:31:10 hm, didn't try a bt keyboard yet Sep 24 11:31:22 i mean the stuff is there for the support and they are relying on the community in order to keep their OS vaiable Sep 24 11:31:31 my iGo worked out of the box with my n810 and sony ericsson m600i Sep 24 11:31:43 why pay your own devs when you can have some 14 yr old pumping out garbage apps? :) Sep 24 11:31:49 ghehe Sep 24 11:31:50 myeah Sep 24 11:32:06 not to mention the quickoffice crap Sep 24 11:32:10 true Sep 24 11:32:12 i was disgusted with that one Sep 24 11:32:17 but that was crap on my m600i too Sep 24 11:32:21 on symbian quickoffice was totally awesome Sep 24 11:32:26 at least on my n95 it was Sep 24 11:32:35 so i figured the android ver would be just as good Sep 24 11:32:41 hm, true Sep 24 11:32:45 and it was only a viewr they were selling for $20 Sep 24 11:32:45 haha Sep 24 11:32:51 on UIQ3 you could at least edit stuff Sep 24 11:32:56 heh Sep 24 11:32:57 jumping on the android market get rich bandwagon Sep 24 11:33:12 * aquatix doesn't use office apps anyway Sep 24 11:33:17 aquatix: i do ;) Sep 24 11:33:21 but a decent spreadsheet could be nice Sep 24 11:33:24 i thought androffice was going to be an entire suite Sep 24 11:33:29 but it was just a spreadsheet editor Sep 24 11:33:30 there's a decent spreadsheet app btw Sep 24 11:33:36 and the devs "are working on a document editor" Sep 24 11:33:42 heh, ouch Sep 24 11:34:20 http://www.androlib.com/android.application.com-bytesquared-spreadsheet-qqxq.aspx <- that one looks decent Sep 24 11:34:30 but i'd really would like a port of gnumeric :) Sep 24 11:34:38 * aquatix loves gnumeric on maemo Sep 24 11:35:00 well. abiword and gnumeric are very lightweight. but they work :) Sep 24 11:35:13 wish they had cups support and could print from the n810 directly but blah Sep 24 11:35:50 yeah. androffice is still only a spreadsheet editor Sep 24 11:36:03 so they should seriously just change the name to "andsheet" or something :) Sep 24 11:36:15 either way. there is no easy way to get a bt kb to work on an android phone Sep 24 11:36:26 if i didn't have root on my phone it wouldn't work at all Sep 24 11:36:49 so far it's been about a year and android has been fail Sep 24 11:36:58 myeah, it works for me Sep 24 11:37:02 only no bt keyboard Sep 24 11:37:06 i couldn't believe they released the phone without a2dp support Sep 24 11:37:07 but i love my Hero as a phone Sep 24 11:37:14 heh Sep 24 11:37:24 i haven't tried a hero rom yet. i'd rather have working apps than a bunch of eye candy Sep 24 11:37:30 * Macer sighs thinking about an n900 Sep 24 11:37:36 well, it's not only eye candy Sep 24 11:37:47 they actually managed to put in quite some usability stuff Sep 24 11:37:53 * SpeedEvil sig11s thinking about a n900. Sep 24 11:37:56 which nokia put in the n900 too Sep 24 11:38:20 ooh, androffice can edit .ods Sep 24 11:38:24 hmmm Sep 24 11:38:29 yeah Sep 24 11:38:35 but no doc editor? Sep 24 11:38:40 :) it's not an office suite Sep 24 11:38:48 it's a spreadsheet editor Sep 24 11:38:54 quickoffice on the n95 was so awesome Sep 24 11:39:07 i only need a text editor for my latex stuff Sep 24 11:39:11 i typed entire term papers on it Sep 24 11:39:15 maybe a latex processor would be nice ;) Sep 24 11:39:16 hm Sep 24 11:39:19 :) Sep 24 11:39:26 with my n95 + su8w Sep 24 11:39:27 maybe i can build an app to offload that to a server Sep 24 11:39:36 now there's an idea Sep 24 11:39:41 ah well. i have to go clean a little bit Sep 24 11:39:43 bbl Sep 24 11:39:48 Macer: term papers on n95? Sep 24 11:39:53 with bt keyboard i presume? Sep 24 11:40:16 otherwise: eek :) Sep 24 11:41:13 anyways, good luck Sep 24 11:41:32 im still feeling a bit sad about retiring my n95 for the n900 (when my order lands) Sep 24 11:42:00 on the other hand i have a feeling i wont regret it :p musicplayer dying while browsing t.m.o is getting annoying ;) Sep 24 11:42:01 i rather liked my combo of n810 and SE m600i Sep 24 11:42:09 ghehe, yeah Sep 24 11:43:51 this guy seems a bit more positive than the russian http://my-symbian.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=368144#368144 :D Sep 24 12:06:32 I think there's something really wrong with Eldar's nxx Sep 24 12:07:03 Maybe someone sent him broken one like a joke :D Sep 24 12:09:06 bergie, I cannot thumb up packages on maemo.org, either from FF or IE. What's wrong there? Sep 24 12:09:26 ab: You probably can, but takes a while for it to show. Sep 24 12:09:35 are you logged in? Sep 24 12:09:42 X-Fade, no activity to my presses Sep 24 12:09:46 wazd, sure Sep 24 12:09:54 ab: It just looks that way. Sep 24 12:10:02 ab: I've had instances where I didn't get any feedback when it happend, but after a refresh it showed up Sep 24 12:10:03 ab: Because there is no feedback what so ever. Sep 24 12:10:03 ab: just in case :) Sep 24 12:10:04 X-Fade, ok, now it showed up Sep 24 12:10:34 ab: Styling is pretty broken yes, do ping bergie about that ;) Sep 24 12:10:38 anyone else, please thumb up "ogg support" package Sep 24 12:10:45 :) Sep 24 12:10:51 we need two more votes to promote it Sep 24 12:11:07 ab: Only after actually testing it of course :) Sep 24 12:11:18 X-Fade, that is what we all did here :) Sep 24 12:12:33 MediaPlayer is playing Ogg out loud right now on my table Sep 24 12:13:31 on the brainstorm, is there a way to report a solution as duplicate? ie #2 and #4 on http://maemo.org/community/brainstorm/view/portrait_mode_input/ Sep 24 12:15:48 ab: Anyway, there is a supposed to be a 10 day quarantine period. Sep 24 12:16:31 ab: But I haven't implemented that yet, so you might be lucky ;) Sep 24 12:16:38 X-Fade, I doubt there is a development quarantine :) Sep 24 12:17:17 ab: promotion quarantine. Sep 24 12:22:00 grrr @ lazy vdvsx Sep 24 12:25:28 ab ogg-support seems to have 10/10 Sep 24 12:26:19 that was fast Sep 24 12:26:45 it got 3 thumbs since yesterday and now it got the rest quickly :) Sep 24 12:27:39 Yay, attitude is up to 4: http://maemo.org/packages/package_instance/view/fremantle_extras-testing_free_armel/attitude/0.0.8 Sep 24 12:28:44 :D jaffa! you included a link to the package Sep 24 12:29:51 lcuk: could've been worse, I could've put a link to the AJAX request for thumbs up ;-) Sep 24 12:30:01 yes! Sep 24 12:30:05 and it wouldv been good Sep 24 12:30:06 * Jaffa wonders how well midgard's voting handles CSRF Sep 24 12:30:08 simplicity Sep 24 12:30:11 streamlining Sep 24 12:31:21 jaffa, we have a webbrowser on device - i think it needs using as suggested - perhaps the shortest/quickest method would be to open browser on testing page from ham Sep 24 12:31:55 bye the way, JNI works fine under meamo arm :) Sep 24 12:31:56 Jaffa: That requires login at least. Sep 24 12:34:32 kulve, yep, smart promotion within the development team Sep 24 12:35:43 I promoted the package again. I guess that means that it ends up to extras..? Sep 24 12:35:56 kulve: yes Sep 24 12:36:14 good :) Sep 24 12:44:46 what is the best store (price and time to receive) to buy a N900 ? Sep 24 12:44:51 amazon? Sep 24 12:45:18 Anunakin: Everything is preorder still, so no actual sales yet. Sep 24 12:45:35 <_berto_> Anunakin: if you live in the UK you can get one with a contract Sep 24 12:46:43 X-Fade: Could you enable extras-testing/non-free and *disable* promotions to extras from there? Sep 24 12:46:54 X-Fade: Or will it be too much trouble? Sep 24 12:47:37 RST38h: I will open -devel for non-free soon, I hope. Sep 24 12:48:15 RST38h: But testing requires promotion, as we need to do the dependency checks etc. Sep 24 12:48:30 RST38h: So that takes a bit longer. Sep 24 12:55:49 RST38h: i uploaded openttd today Sep 24 12:56:01 X-Fade: Oh Sep 24 12:56:07 RST38h: can you use the Game options menu while in non-scaled mode? Sep 24 12:56:10 javis: Seen it, but could not scale =) Sep 24 12:56:17 javis: It does not scale for me Sep 24 12:56:29 RST38h: did you select a "lower" res in game options? Sep 24 12:56:58 javis: Yes, and it simply showed black screen Sep 24 12:57:10 if you can't phisically hit the options widgets i'll find a way to set that from the cmd line/config file Sep 24 12:57:24 :P Sep 24 12:57:55 ok, works here. Sep 24 12:58:01 javis: No I managed to set it, let me try again Sep 24 12:58:06 This is on startup, right? Sep 24 12:58:14 yea, startup screen -> game options Sep 24 13:00:35 X-Fade: How does it identify "Bugtracker" on the package page? Sep 24 13:00:48 Jaffa: I added those manually. Sep 24 13:01:03 And you can use Xsbc-bugtracker of course ;) Sep 24 13:01:21 Xsbc-Bugtracker even. Sep 24 13:01:35 X-Fade: I was about to introduce XSBC-Bugtracker (once I found the actual name) for Attitude, but then saw it was already there Sep 24 13:01:49 * Stskeeps yawns Sep 24 13:01:50 * Jaffa still isn't quite sure about the armel/i386 split for comments/rankings etc. Sep 24 13:02:22 Jaffa: They should be viewed separate but rating should probably only be on the armel part. Sep 24 13:02:49 javis: Tested it again. Shows black screen, briefly flashing the image when task switching Sep 24 13:02:59 javis: I selected 400x240 Sep 24 13:03:09 that's fullscreen Sep 24 13:03:12 select the lower one. Sep 24 13:03:21 a'ok Sep 24 13:03:39 I know it does not make much sense in n900 but on n810 having fullscreen is a must. Sep 24 13:04:56 Trying it on n810 Sep 24 13:05:54 ah, sorry :P Sep 24 13:06:27 then I cannot think of anything else other than a bad updaterects call, lemme check Sep 24 13:06:30 javis: Same thing at 400x210 Sep 24 13:27:23 X-Fade: I think I'm going to change Attitude to try and use Clutter or even OpenGL-ES rather than Cairo. Feel free to raise a bug and you can get some karma ;-) Sep 24 13:27:43 Jaffa: Heh, it is a bit slideshow-ish ;) Sep 24 13:28:08 make a bubble-level mode Sep 24 13:28:18 and calibration adjustment Sep 24 13:28:55 it shows a bit off for me - maybe do a 10 sec sampling and filter to find the most stable value Sep 24 13:29:16 of course one needs a straight surface to begin with :) Sep 24 13:30:06 tigert: timsamoff's drawing me some nice graphics for a bubblelevel mode Sep 24 13:30:33 tigert: It's doing sampling at the moment, but Cairo not using any 2D accel's a bit of a pain Sep 24 13:30:44 tigert: It's doing sampling at the moment, but Cairo not using any 2D accel's a bit of a pain Sep 24 13:31:02 * Jaffa wants to get Hermes up and into extras-testing ASAP. That'll be much more popular (and useful) Sep 24 13:31:17 Jaffa: Yeah, it maxes out the cpu ;) Sep 24 13:31:48 X-Fade: That's not a QA requirement ;-p Sep 24 13:32:00 Jaffa: Does now waste energy? :) Sep 24 13:32:05 *not Sep 24 13:32:08 Jaffa: I just open fb0 and bang it directly Sep 24 13:32:15 RST38h: Heh Sep 24 13:32:22 openvg! openvg! Sep 24 13:32:26 Jaffa: cool Sep 24 13:32:30 But the SGX should even have hardware dithering. Sep 24 13:32:40 unless you need to zoom or draw lots of stuff, direct banging is the best option Sep 24 13:33:07 Why would you need to dither in 16bpp? Sep 24 13:33:13 whats hermes? Sep 24 13:33:18 Or do you mean antialiasing? Sep 24 13:33:20 RST38h: Banding Sep 24 13:33:44 16bpp has only 5 bits of red and blue Sep 24 13:33:59 banding is unfortunately obvious on some images Sep 24 13:34:01 s/some/many Sep 24 13:34:12 X-Fade: mmm, at our size of the screen? :) Sep 24 13:34:28 RST38h: Yeah, start attitude and see :) Sep 24 13:34:34 Heh Sep 24 13:34:58 Blizzard actually does antialiasing, but this is different... Sep 24 13:35:00 tigert: Hermes will make sure your contacts have pictures and birthdays against them, if you use Facebook or Twitter Sep 24 13:41:57 X-Fade: BTW, Attitude 0.0.6 still shows up in the Repository QA Queue, even 0.0.8 is in there as well Sep 24 13:42:08 Jaffa: Yeah, bug.. Sep 24 13:42:23 I'll remove 0.0.6 completely. Sep 24 13:42:35 X-Fade: ta Sep 24 13:45:46 X-Fade: any idea how long it should take for a package to be shown in extras after promoting in testing? Sep 24 13:46:01 any here using "debian easy"? Sep 24 13:46:01 kulve: Yeah, I know exacly how long. Sep 24 13:49:58 * GeneralAntilles chuckles at the Mer thread. Sep 24 13:50:25 The Mer sub-section thread? Sep 24 13:50:32 Yeah Sep 24 13:50:40 Pfft Sep 24 13:51:17 The "Maemo Council" wants to steal my pocket lint! Sep 24 13:52:05 well at least they're taking pride in the community project Sep 24 13:59:02 Stskeeps: Indeed. The suggestion that "the powers that be" don't want Mer to succeed is a little insulting. Sep 24 13:59:38 Stskeeps: What's your feeling on a Mer subsection? You pretty much decided last time it came up; time to revisit? Or do you agree with lbt, wait until it's closer to end-user ready? Sep 24 14:00:22 I think there are + and - Sep 24 14:00:42 + makes it more official and brings attention (and maybe resource) Sep 24 14:01:24 - makes it appear that it should be as glossy as N900 videos ... and people are unhappy and we get fights and distractions Sep 24 14:01:26 * GeneralAntilles will point out again that it's shit like that that takes the fun out of this job. Sep 24 14:01:49 let's make the people happy? :P Sep 24 14:02:03 Steal their pocket lint! Sep 24 14:02:10 Then their paranoid delusions can be right. Sep 24 14:02:24 and knit screen wipers from the lint? Sep 24 14:02:42 Less talk, more doing. Sep 24 14:02:47 There's a Mer hacking push at the summit? Let's create the sub-forum then, and populate it with a prepared sticky? Sep 24 14:03:18 Don't want to give the trolls the satisfaction of thinking they did it ;-) Sep 24 14:05:01 i'd rather not want a repetition of the fact the smartq mer community warped out into a seperate forum, heh Sep 24 14:13:26 Calibrating 5 LCDs takes forever. Sep 24 14:17:12 is there anyone know how to install libhildonmm library? Sep 24 14:17:59 hello? Sep 24 14:18:16 install it from extras? Sep 24 14:20:32 sorry, calling... Sep 24 14:26:11 stskeeps.. Sep 24 14:26:37 the sdk i installed is maemo5 beta2 Sep 24 14:26:45 http://media.weathersealed.com/maps/mcd_us_high.jpg -- I find this disturbing Sep 24 14:27:06 hah :P Sep 24 14:27:20 oh wow Sep 24 14:27:53 hi ;) Sep 24 14:28:04 there is no extra source for libhildonmm Sep 24 14:28:27 zuii: Is this on Fremantle? Sep 24 14:28:41 yes Sep 24 14:28:52 zuii: http://maemomm.garage.maemo.org/docs_unstable/tutorial/html/sec-installation.html Sep 24 14:29:11 Basically, it's in extras-devel. Sep 24 14:29:12 thx let me see Sep 24 14:31:02 updating... Sep 24 14:34:49 installing..... thanks very much,murrayc Sep 24 14:41:39 mplayer seems (?) to have no way to tell codecs to timescale - eg playback mp3/mp4/ogg/aac etc fraöes at varying speeds (without changing pitch) Sep 24 14:42:02 s/fraöes/frames/ Sep 24 14:42:03 pupnik_ meant: mplayer seems (?) to have no way to tell codecs to timescale - eg playback mp3/mp4/ogg/aac etc frames at varying speeds (without changing pitch) Sep 24 14:42:44 a slick media player should support that (flag to all @ nokia :) Sep 24 14:44:15 wish i had a job where i could tell people what to do :) Sep 24 14:44:30 Get a job as a traffic warden. Sep 24 14:44:43 :) Sep 24 14:45:37 pupnik_: all jobs have people telling you want to do, run your own company with 50 staff, now you just have 100 customers tell you want to do Sep 24 14:45:55 s/want/what/g Sep 24 14:45:55 asj_wrk- meant: pupnik_: all jobs have people telling you what to do, run your own company with 50 staff, now you just have 100 customers tell you what to do Sep 24 14:46:07 obviously Sep 24 14:47:07 is what made my comment ironic Sep 24 14:47:10 ah well Sep 24 14:47:42 regardless, ill put a varispeed player on my to do list Sep 24 14:48:55 heres the reason: many non-native english speakers can understand fast native english better when played back timestretched to 0.7 speed Sep 24 14:48:58 what do people use that for? Sep 24 14:49:03 ah Sep 24 14:49:07 afternoon all Sep 24 14:49:15 esp :) Sep 24 14:49:32 hi Sep 24 14:49:41 how u dooing? Sep 24 14:49:44 pupnik_: it's probably a filter I suspect, not a codec thing Sep 24 14:49:52 no no no Sep 24 14:50:08 :) Sep 24 14:50:14 hi pupnik_ Sep 24 14:50:24 mplayer seems (?) to have no way to tell codecs to timescale - eg playback mp3/mp4/ogg/aac etc fraÃmes at varying speeds (without changing pitch) Sep 24 14:50:42 Mplayer has a scaletempo filter Sep 24 14:50:46 pupnik_: yes - that is not a thing a codec can often sanely do Sep 24 14:50:51 pupnik_: it would be a filter Sep 24 14:50:52 Codecs have nothing to do with it Sep 24 14:50:55 yes, that resamples the pcm audio Sep 24 14:51:03 -af scaletempo Sep 24 14:51:05 sounds like shit Sep 24 14:51:18 Might be newer feature than rc1 though Sep 24 14:51:21 mplayer -af scaletempo=scale=.6 bnt.mp3 Sep 24 14:51:43 pupnik_: which did the required fft magic - some codecs - for example PCM or FLAC - have no idea at all of frequency spectrum - and would need to totally reimplement the same code to do pitch bending Sep 24 14:51:45 without resampling the pcm stream as an audio plugin does Sep 24 14:52:05 You fundamentally have to resample, the maths cannot be denied. Sep 24 14:52:06 correct speedevil Sep 24 14:52:50 any way you slice it, the mplayer codec api needs a new timescale variable Sep 24 14:53:02 Resampling is a different operation again :) Sep 24 14:53:08 andso freq domain codecs can implement it Sep 24 14:53:23 is there anyone using ESbox now? Sep 24 14:53:36 How to import a project? Sep 24 14:53:53 Pupnik: what, shift the mp3 bands up on decode? Sep 24 14:54:06 no, pkayback frames faster Sep 24 14:54:13 pitch stays same Sep 24 14:54:23 It doesn't work like that Sep 24 14:54:25 oror slower Sep 24 14:54:31 yes.. it.. does Sep 24 14:54:39 freq domain does Sep 24 14:55:03 i got it ... Sep 24 14:55:20 good luck zuii Sep 24 14:55:25 i know of no codec that support it anyway. So an API is a chicken-egg problem right now anyways Sep 24 14:55:34 thx Sep 24 15:03:00 i just want it on the record that pupnik said "IT WILL BE SO" on Sep 24 15:03:10 Thu Sep 24 17:03:02 CEST 2009 Sep 24 15:09:45 I met a error when i want to run my gtk application, osso_initialize failed Sep 24 15:10:14 anyone know how to fix it? Sep 24 15:11:37 use run-standalone.sh can make it work, but why? Sep 24 15:11:54 environment stuff Sep 24 15:12:05 dneary, ping? Sep 24 15:12:16 depending on how you got your command line you may not have the ...dunno, dbus somethings and such Sep 24 15:12:17 GAN800: Pong! Sep 24 15:12:39 maemo 5 beta2 Sep 24 15:12:50 dneary, so, I'd like to see about running through the site content and cleaning up everything before the Summit. Sep 24 15:13:04 Moving/deleting/revising Sep 24 15:13:22 Since we've got a lot of half-working (email forums) and legacy stuff. Sep 24 15:14:33 hi all Sep 24 15:15:58 which package do i have to install to use liblocation on scratchbox? (DIABLO_ARMEL) Sep 24 15:20:18 i don't know.... Sep 24 15:23:17 acouto, isnt liblocation the thing that uses gps? Sep 24 15:23:26 or is it the one that does clock selection Sep 24 15:24:33 lcuk, gps Sep 24 15:25:26 normally the sdk includes -dev versions of the libraries Sep 24 15:25:36 Is liblocation a diablo thing or is it new in fremantle? Sep 24 15:26:47 ShadowJK, diablo Sep 24 15:30:03 * SpeedEvil stabs random unexplained lockups with nothing in syslog. Sep 24 15:32:14 wb qw Sep 24 15:32:22 qwerty12 Sep 24 15:32:22 Thanks, STiAT Sep 24 15:32:32 *Stskeeps, sorry STiAT Sep 24 15:34:39 SpeedEvil, what happens if the error is with writing to syslog Sep 24 15:35:47 ShadowJK, new in Fremantle. Sep 24 15:36:35 lcuk: yeah - possible - I need to work out some method of oops-logging Sep 24 15:37:05 GeneralAntilles, that would explain his problem then lol Sep 24 15:38:50 * Jaffa wants a libgpsbt <-> liblocation bridge so that navicore will work on Fremantle Sep 24 15:39:12 * GeneralAntilles wants a cake pony. Sep 24 15:39:21 * Myrtti votes for cheesecake Sep 24 15:39:35 Why the hell do you want navicore? Sep 24 15:39:44 RST38h: Cos I've used Ovi Maps ;-) Sep 24 15:39:48 is libgpsbt closed? Sep 24 15:39:50 ah Sep 24 15:40:00 is navicore better then? Sep 24 15:40:26 RST38h: Navicore seems quicker; does voice turn-by-turn nav; shows you your speed and I paid 10 quid for a 3 year licence for it. Sep 24 15:40:46 yeah same here Sep 24 15:40:53 Be nice if Nokia provided an upgrade route for Navicore users. Sep 24 15:40:55 RST38h: Navicore also uses pre-downloaded maps; whereas Ovi tends to want to download on demand (although their is an S60 area downloader, which might work for the Maemo version too) Sep 24 15:41:32 I think you can predownload for ovi Sep 24 15:41:45 just need to know where to place stuff Sep 24 15:42:17 Yeah, there are various cache directories which look appropriate Sep 24 15:42:30 anyone got a link to the libgpsbt deb? Sep 24 15:42:33 Ovi Maps looks pretty, but seems pretty limited in functionality (and the UI is a confusing mess IMHO) Sep 24 15:42:42 the ovi maemo ui looks confusing though Sep 24 15:42:47 i really like the nightmode Sep 24 15:42:48 heh Sep 24 15:42:56 the maps look like 3d tunnels and pipework Sep 24 15:44:20 lardman|home: http://maemo.org/api_refs/4.0/gpsbt/group__gpsbt__api.html is the API ref Sep 24 15:44:33 that is changeable, but what the hell is my current address doing in the middle of the map? And why can't I remove it? Sep 24 15:44:56 RST38h: Yeah. Loads of wasted space, mostly in where you want to go Sep 24 15:45:17 lardman|home: Diablo's one is part of nokia-binaries; look in your homedir for your SB account Sep 24 15:45:30 Jaffa: My guess is that they ported S60 UI with 1:1 precision. But the S60 UI was designed for small screens and button input Sep 24 15:45:42 Jaffa: On the tablet, it looks weird and out of place Sep 24 15:45:50 Hopefully it'll improve. Sep 24 15:45:56 qwerty12: ok cool Sep 24 15:46:17 General: It won't unless 10-20 people tell Quim/Peter/etc that it is ridiculous Sep 24 15:46:25 And point out exactly why Sep 24 15:46:33 Jaffa: well those functions don't look too exciting to me Sep 24 15:46:39 Somebody should prep a review article. Sep 24 15:46:44 Even in that case it may still not improve, but anyway Sep 24 15:46:44 Jaffa: perhaps Navicore could be tricked Sep 24 15:47:09 General: Actually, Eldar seems to have done a good job (translation tomorrow), except for his whining Sep 24 15:47:31 lardman|home: Indeed, either a new libgpsbt which just maps through to the appropriate real calls; or just a copy of the diablo variants ;-) Sep 24 15:48:20 pairing stuff could be ignored Sep 24 15:48:25 lardman|home: I didn't look much further than a dpkg-repack and an unsatisfied link dependency when starting it Sep 24 15:49:14 does Navicore read from a gpsd port, or from a dev entry? Sep 24 15:50:45 just hope Navicore doesn't have any hardcoded gstreamer elements in it Sep 24 15:50:58 like dsp sinks Sep 24 15:51:32 lardman: navicore, gst? Sep 24 15:51:44 why? O.o Sep 24 15:51:49 well it makes noises, so it must come out somehow Sep 24 15:51:52 javispedro: ok, good news and bad news Sep 24 15:52:02 javispedro: Good news: 420x210 does work Sep 24 15:52:21 :) Sep 24 15:52:23 bad news? Sep 24 15:52:42 javispedro: Bad news: command line options do not work in this binary, and enabling this mode from the menu is near impossible, especially considering that once you resize, you can no longer close the window Sep 24 15:53:08 ah, that rings a bell, wait. Sep 24 15:53:38 javispedro: Fixing the command line options and inseting the right resolution into .desktop file should do the job Sep 24 15:53:56 i did not touch anything cmd line options related Sep 24 15:54:00 javispedro: This leaves a few small problems, like the news items being wider than the screen Sep 24 15:54:18 javis: probably means they have been already broken :) Sep 24 15:54:30 were they broken in prev binary? Sep 24 15:54:34 dunno Sep 24 15:54:47 you may still have it in /usr/games if you did not replace it Sep 24 15:55:21 and, can you elaborate what you mean by "broken"? -h works well Sep 24 15:55:54 ahhhhh my eyes are hurting Sep 24 15:56:02 vnc is flickering worse than a crt Sep 24 16:00:40 "If Maemo 5 begin popular, it will be copied. If not popular, not copied." :D Sep 24 16:00:46 javispedro: replaced it Sep 24 16:02:22 maemo is a bunch of open source software, how can you copy that? it's already out there Sep 24 16:16:37 felipec, shhhh Sep 24 16:17:58 lcuk: heh, what? did I reveal a secret? Sep 24 16:19:25 ontday entionmay itsway openway ourcesay orway everyoneway Sep 24 16:19:25 illway opycay itway Sep 24 16:19:54 * lardman|home digs out his one-time cipher pad Sep 24 16:20:51 http://users.snowcrest.net/donnelly/piglatin.html Sep 24 16:21:48 :) Sep 24 16:22:34 bit random mind you Sep 24 16:26:36 VDVsx, ping? Sep 24 16:26:49 GeneralAntilles, pong Sep 24 16:26:56 VDVsx, wanna room? Sep 24 16:28:06 GeneralAntilles, sure :) Sep 24 16:28:19 Cool. Sep 24 16:28:22 * GeneralAntilles edits away. ;) Sep 24 16:29:09 hmm, half the pre-booked rooms are filled, but mostly with only one person Sep 24 16:29:18 well 50% Sep 24 16:30:43 HOMETIME! Sep 24 16:30:51 lcuk: About http://www.tomtom.com/page/openLR I only heard of it when the the press release was created and I was really puzzeld Sep 24 16:30:54 are you not there all day long? Sep 24 16:31:15 keesj, i was only joking, but its a really cool thing coming from your company Sep 24 16:32:10 bbiab anyway Sep 24 16:33:30 I like the idea , I don't understand the whole concept. Would like them to make the libs at least lgpl Sep 24 16:33:38 v.s. gpl Sep 24 16:40:00 * Jaffa has lost his rag on the Mer thread now Sep 24 16:41:28 are people using different interfaces to the forum or do you really need to click for every few messages to the next page? Sep 24 16:41:39 there's a forum? Sep 24 16:41:52 keesj, you can change how many messages it displays per page. Sep 24 16:41:55 But it defaults to 10. Sep 24 16:42:07 * Jaffa didn't know you could change the count. Interesting Sep 24 16:42:19 Hmmm...Sodaville released Sep 24 16:43:13 Meanwhile: The USA is suffering the most severe ammunition famine in living memory. Gun fanciers, fearing a Democrat crackdown on every American's right to pack heat, are clearing shelves at ammo shops and hoarding cartridges. Sep 24 16:43:20 http://talk.maemo.org/profile.php?do=editoptions Sep 24 16:43:32 RST38h, it's so goddamn expensive to go shooting. Sep 24 16:43:45 3 or 4x times the price it 18 months ago. Sep 24 16:43:55 General: I tried a couple of times, a few years ago, it was already expensive Sep 24 16:44:03 lol Sep 24 16:44:08 Yeah, but at least it was doable. Sep 24 16:44:40 $11.99 for a box of 50 Winchester Whitebox 9mms Sep 24 16:44:48 $10 for the range fee. Sep 24 16:44:56 Call it $50 to go for an evening. Sep 24 16:45:10 I got to say I'd be in favour of adding a Mer subsection Sep 24 16:45:31 GeneralAntilles: I can buy 2 rounds of drinks for that, stop complaining Sep 24 16:45:41 lardman|home, that was then. Sep 24 16:45:51 Now you can't even get the whiteboxes. Sep 24 16:46:15 well I've not often been able to buy ammo down my local pub I must admit Sep 24 16:46:24 though I reckon I know a few where it might be possible Sep 24 16:46:41 where's qwerty12 when you need him...? ;) Sep 24 16:46:41 lardman|home: I don't care; but I object to the way the opinions have been expressed. Sep 24 16:46:43 lardman|home: In quiet little Bath? Surely not Sep 24 16:46:48 penguinbait in particular Sep 24 16:46:53 Jaffa: oh yeah of course Sep 24 16:46:55 Well, not in particular Sep 24 16:47:06 I was considering going a couple months ago but it'd've been $150 just to shoot off 100 9mms. Sep 24 16:47:53 * Stskeeps ponders if he should get into that thread or not. Sep 24 16:48:04 Jaffa: he's talking about some people who were removed from the council being in the way of creating the new forum? Sep 24 16:48:10 s/forum/subsection Sep 24 16:48:24 not that many of us.... Sep 24 16:48:29 Stskeeps, it'd probably help. Sep 24 16:48:36 good evening Sep 24 16:48:43 Wtf, n920 thread. Atleast nokia wont have issues coming up with names Sep 24 16:48:45 Since at this point the opinion seems to be that the "evil" council is trying to get the working man down. Sep 24 16:49:06 lardman|home: I *think* he's suggesting that the new council should just make a decision and that the old council is trying to control things whilst they desperately cling to power. Sep 24 16:49:43 i'm heavily counting on the majority of council being sane. Sep 24 16:49:58 oh, it sounded like the old old council members who left were the ones at fault... Sep 24 16:50:01 But I'm not aware of many ppl on the council who've actually posted "no, it's a bad idea". In fact, I don't even remember any "no, it's a bad idea" from anybody. Just that it is like this for a reason, and the decision should be taken sensibly Sep 24 16:50:08 hmm, I might change my mind now :) Sep 24 16:50:17 Stskeeps: Hopefully, there aren't too many insane names on the new ballot Sep 24 16:50:29 ShadowJK: Back story: in some twitter/lj post Eldar Murtazin referred to "N920" as a legendary RX-56 (?) device to be released in the summer 2010 Sep 24 16:50:46 I wonder if I have those superpowers anyway Sep 24 16:50:57 ShadowJK: Some t.m.o loony applid Google Translate to that and went nuts Sep 24 16:51:15 Nokia Gruntmaster 10.000 Sep 24 16:51:47 ShadowJK: To perpetrate the madness, I can inform you all that Eldar also mentioned 2 non-Nokia Maemo5 devices, currently in dev board form Sep 24 16:53:40 RST38h: if he thinks wazd is a nokia employee things might start getting confusing Sep 24 16:55:03 RST38h, Beagle Board, Touchbook? ;) Sep 24 16:55:10 Sts: he once claimed all maemo.org people to be in pay of Nokia Sep 24 16:55:13 cheesecake Sep 24 16:55:22 RST38h, what, we're not? ;) Sep 24 16:55:23 General: My crystal balls say Samsung, but I won't bet on it Sep 24 16:55:40 I'd have a hard time seeing Nokia licensing Maemo. Sep 24 16:56:15 wtf, that 920 thread links to some wishful thinking blog posts Sep 24 16:56:45 General: They licensed S60, so why not Maemo? They sell hw after all Sep 24 16:56:54 could I trouble someone to tell me how apps are installed on maemo? is there a package manager or repo? Sep 24 16:57:02 or? Sep 24 16:57:12 they're certainly not exclusive Sep 24 16:57:23 arquebus: repos w/ package manager or apt-get, etc Sep 24 16:57:23 Myrtti: didnt say there were Sep 24 16:57:52 lardman: k thx Sep 24 16:58:45 arquebus, Application Manager Sep 24 16:59:10 arquebus, it's basically a dumbed-down, mobile-friendly package manager similar to Ubuntu's Add/Remove. Sep 24 17:00:19 GeneralAntilles: ok, surprised to hear that, I didnt think commercial apps would work well with a package manager Sep 24 17:00:31 arquebus, what commercial apps? Sep 24 17:00:41 arquebus, Ovi Store is, apparently, coming at some point, but not yet. Sep 24 17:00:46 It's unclear how it will be implemented. Sep 24 17:01:09 GeneralAntilles: I dont know, I dont have a maemo device, Im just wondering how easy it will be to dev for it Sep 24 17:01:48 arquebus, http://maemo.org/development/sdks/ Sep 24 17:02:06 GeneralAntilles: thx Sep 24 17:02:18 arquebus: you looking to develop OSS or closed apps? Sep 24 17:02:27 arquebus, not radically different from developing for any normal Linux distro. Sep 24 17:02:34 either one will work with a package manager Sep 24 17:02:35 arquebus, minus the cross-compilation part. Sep 24 17:02:35 lbt- closed apps Sep 24 17:02:39 like games Sep 24 17:02:59 arquebus, those will work fine with the Application Manager but there's no payment system through it and no DRM. Sep 24 17:03:13 GeneralAntilles: ok, great Sep 24 17:03:30 your main issue is to make sure you don't depend on any GPL stuff then - otherwise, just a package. Sep 24 17:03:58 no DRM either Sep 24 17:03:59 commercial doesn't have to mean DRM Sep 24 17:04:27 no, worth mentioning though as there can be an expectation Sep 24 17:04:46 lbt- good point, hope maemo does opengl well Sep 24 17:05:11 SpeedEvil, of course not, but it's certainly a possibility. Sep 24 17:05:24 arquebus, OpenGL ES 2.0 Sep 24 17:05:32 GeneralAntilles: ok Sep 24 17:05:44 Some overview here: http://wiki.maemo.org/OpenGL-ES Sep 24 17:06:04 http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p=332992&postcount=27 <- will the thread explode? Sep 24 17:06:24 * lbt wonders how to do OSS 'for pay' Sep 24 17:06:52 there should be an option to provide a GPL app that you hold the copyright for through the store Sep 24 17:07:25 OSS for pay is just like OSS without pay, but with a 'buy' button. Sep 24 17:07:28 As one option. Sep 24 17:07:34 lbt: there's several different models Sep 24 17:07:47 lbt, XChat for Windows. Sep 24 17:07:50 lbt- GPL is totally wrong for that, GPL means always in public domain, a BSD or MIT license can be closed and owned privately Sep 24 17:07:51 Then you've got open-source - but no permission to modify and distribute Sep 24 17:07:55 Source is free, binaries are charged for. Sep 24 17:08:08 lbt, bespoke apps constructed to requirements by interested parties without the skills to do it themselves Sep 24 17:08:10 arquebus, GPL is not public domain. Sep 24 17:08:15 I want to sell *my* GPL apps Sep 24 17:08:29 You can sell your GPL apps - but you can't stop anyone forking them Sep 24 17:08:30 so put them on an app store and have people pay to install them Sep 24 17:08:33 nothing stopping you Sep 24 17:08:34 if it's GPL Sep 24 17:08:36 I know they can be forked Sep 24 17:08:41 a) precompiled binaries are commercial, like xchat for windows b) support is commercial, like canonical does with ubuntu etc Sep 24 17:08:48 GeneralAntilles: what I mean is that source must always be made open, you cant close source and take ownership of your version Sep 24 17:08:51 its not the code that matters Sep 24 17:08:56 but what I don't want is for the store to assume that GPL is free :) Sep 24 17:08:56 its the brand recognition from the app Sep 24 17:09:08 arquebus, you're the copyright holder, you can do whatever you want. Sep 24 17:09:11 and any fork would have to build up its own brand Sep 24 17:09:28 You can't relicense already distributed code, but you can stop distributing under the GPL. Sep 24 17:09:29 GeneralAntilles: anything accept close source Sep 24 17:09:32 arquebus: If you're teh author you can Sep 24 17:09:48 arquebus: If you write something as GPL, you can also license it however you like. Sep 24 17:10:12 if all parties who are involved in its development are in agreement Sep 24 17:10:13 SpeedEvil: ok, maybe Im not very knowledgable Sep 24 17:10:38 For example, there may be a pay-for-license which gives the purchasor the right to incorporate the software into non GPL projects Sep 24 17:10:47 Which they couldn't do with the GPL version Sep 24 17:12:15 thx all Sep 24 17:12:59 Stskeeps, you're in league with the cabal! Sep 24 17:13:37 GeneralAntilles: next up they start claiming i'm a nokian or something and i want to bring down the community.. Sep 24 17:13:40 :P Sep 24 17:14:01 * GeneralAntilles doesn't know when he let -developers get up to 438 unread mails. Sep 24 17:20:24 GeneralAntilles: what? oh my. Sep 24 17:21:20 it's funny but it's only since today that I am at least able to explain to techniqual people what maemo is. I think tell it's the linux based os that run's Nokia's first open-source based phone finally rings a bell Sep 24 17:22:19 lol Sep 24 17:22:47 you try and explain Mer to people then Sep 24 17:22:52 that's fun. uhm. :P Sep 24 17:23:33 Stskeeps, the only people I'd ever try to explain that to would have the background to understand it. Sep 24 17:24:33 ah, the issues of oss evangelization. Sep 24 17:24:53 * Stskeeps tries to find nice places to visit in helsinki Sep 24 17:25:10 * lcuk facepalms Sep 24 17:25:26 Stskeeps, go find a Nokia executive to ask them why they had North America. :P Sep 24 17:25:36 <_berto_> Stskeeps: all helsinki is nice Sep 24 17:25:36 Stskeeps: want my ex girlfriends digits? Sep 24 17:25:45 toggles_w: nah, my wife is coming up Sep 24 17:25:52 Stskeeps: Suomenlinna Sep 24 17:25:52 ;-) Sep 24 17:26:04 Myrtti: provided weather is nice.. Sep 24 17:26:07 Stskeeps: take the ferry, but be sure to be clothed properly Sep 24 17:26:08 yeah Sep 24 17:26:21 toggles_w: So, has Stskeeps /msg'ed you for them yet? ;) Sep 24 17:26:28 there's a picasso show going on Sep 24 17:26:39 yeah.. advertisements everywhere Sep 24 17:26:40 qwerty12: lol, no Sep 24 17:27:11 temple square church looks interesting Sep 24 17:27:26 yeah, I've always wanted to see it Sep 24 17:27:28 never have Sep 24 17:27:31 * SpeedEvil prefers fishfingers. Less legal problems. Sep 24 17:28:08 <_berto_> i think i liked seurasaari more than suomenlinna Sep 24 17:28:36 hhmh Sep 24 17:29:08 Disponibilité: Arrivage prévu Jeudi 22 Octobre Sep 24 17:30:44 * SpeedEvil tries to remember what Jeudi is. Sep 24 17:31:00 wedensday? Sep 24 17:32:09 <_berto_> thursday Sep 24 17:32:19 <_berto_> wednesday is mercredi Sep 24 17:32:27 Hi everyone. I'm looking for a new phone for me and my boss, and now I found the Nokia 900 looking very promissing. Sep 24 17:32:46 <_berto_> jhp: it is ;) Sep 24 17:32:59 jhp, buy it. ;) Sep 24 17:33:06 My boss had 2 questions though, can it do desent Imap with folder subscriptions etc and multiple accounts? Sep 24 17:33:21 And can I use is as a "modem" for my laptop Sep 24 17:33:52 <_berto_> jhp: the mail client suppots imap and multiple accounts Sep 24 17:34:02 And this second part would be great if you could have a phone call and at the same time use the HSDPA connection for internet on your laptop Sep 24 17:34:33 * javispedro laughs at n920 thread. Sep 24 17:35:08 _berto_: and you can also do more that just the inbox? Sep 24 17:35:30 <_berto_> jhp: yes Sep 24 17:35:35 Great. Sep 24 17:35:36 <_berto_> jhp: all folders Sep 24 17:35:56 And also subscriptions / leave folder out? Sep 24 17:36:01 jhp: and if you get upset with the internal mail client, there's alternatives :) Sep 24 17:36:10 Thunderbird? Sep 24 17:36:12 elm? Sep 24 17:36:29 elm is good Sep 24 17:36:39 <_berto_> jhp: not completely sure about subscriptions Sep 24 17:36:53 But my boss is more a Thunderbird kind of gue Sep 24 17:36:56 guy Sep 24 17:37:18 And does it do openvpn? Sep 24 17:37:40 i use openvpn on n800/n810 Sep 24 17:38:00 Great. This phone starts to be more and more apealing to me. Sep 24 17:38:09 <_berto_> jhp: it's a debian-based distro, you can install just about any package Sep 24 17:38:13 Mac Pro is here!!!! Sep 24 17:38:22 Not sure if it's available for n900 yet, I'll cross that bridge when I have it in my hands :) Sep 24 17:38:41 jhp: are you a linux/unix type person? Sep 24 17:38:49 Yes, and so is my boss. Sep 24 17:39:02 We run a Linux business. Sep 24 17:39:48 But I have a really old phone and he got stuck with some win mobile crapp thing. Sep 24 17:39:49 GeneralAntilles: nice! hopefully you got it with an apology signed by the steveness himself. Sep 24 17:39:54 So we both want something different Sep 24 17:40:37 Open the xterm, type 'sudo gainroot', knock yourself out Sep 24 17:40:46 Great Sep 24 17:41:21 <_berto_> jhp: they're telling me that the email client doesn't support subscriptions, it gets all folders Sep 24 17:41:24 And can you use it as a Wireless APP for you notebook ? Sep 24 17:41:48 Or can you plugg a usb cable in for ethernet on usb? Sep 24 17:42:01 Something to give internet to my laptop while on the road. Sep 24 17:42:12 In that case I can ditch my hsdpa modem Sep 24 17:43:01 <_berto_> jhp: not completely sure, but I don't see a reason why you wouldn't be able to do it Sep 24 17:43:09 It must have the interface to do it and the kernel must support it. Sep 24 17:43:34 ethernet over usb you mean, as in kernel usbnet Sep 24 17:43:39 I mean, the iphone could also do it and they killed it in the last update. Sep 24 17:43:56 Stskeeps: For example Sep 24 17:43:56 jhp: you're always free to recompile your kernel :) Sep 24 17:43:57 Dunno how the support is out of the box Sep 24 17:44:07 <_berto_> well, the kernel is free software, I don't think you'll have problems to enable the ethernet over usb module Sep 24 17:44:18 <_berto_> (assuming that it doesn't come with it) Sep 24 17:44:33 But noone knows ..... Sep 24 17:44:34 ? Sep 24 17:44:46 Oh, that's fun Sep 24 17:44:58 jhp: i think until release a bunch of people are covered by NDA but it would surprise me a lot if g_ether wasn't enable-able. Sep 24 17:45:04 The bluez guys are going to post a guide on how to enable serving out internet over bluetooth Sep 24 17:45:21 ShadowJK: That is an option as well Sep 24 17:45:24 jhp: you can sudo into being root and probably flash your own kernel.. work your way from there :) Sep 24 17:45:37 article from the UK recommending the n900 because "It's cheap, really cheap." Sep 24 17:45:37 <_berto_> yes, I think there's lots of way to create a network interface between the n900 and your laptop Sep 24 17:45:43 Stskeeps: is an option. Sep 24 17:45:54 ( http://www.itproportal.com/portal/news/article/2009/9/24/4-great-alternatives-o2s-palm-pre-2842-month/ ) Sep 24 17:46:01 * SpeedEvil has a slightly different definition of cheap :) Sep 24 17:46:18 Ccooke: well you get it free with subscription in UK Sep 24 17:46:38 I suppose in a way they're right. Sep 24 17:46:42 ShadowJK: I know. It's a truly marvellous state of affairs. Sep 24 17:47:05 jhp: check out the situation with n800/n810 internet tablets. probably similar solution Sep 24 17:47:11 And when you compare prices that dont require a marriage with an operator, it's 150-500E below iphone 3gs :> Sep 24 17:47:21 n900 should be bloody flexible :) Sep 24 17:47:41 it *is* cheap... I currently pay £30 a month for my wife's phone. She uses it enough to justify that. I've got her an n900 on a 24-month contract for £35 Sep 24 17:47:45 Stskeeps: I agree. That way the screen won't break if you sit on it. Sep 24 17:47:54 that works out at £120 *additional* over two years. Sep 24 17:48:16 So basically, I'm paying £120 for a £500 device. Not going to complain :-) Sep 24 17:48:20 ccooke: on voda? Sep 24 17:48:24 yeah Sep 24 17:48:45 *vodka Sep 24 17:48:52 does the USA have a similar independant phone shop sector? Sep 24 17:49:10 Where the shops get kickbacks for contracts, and can apply that to any phone Sep 24 17:49:14 ? Sep 24 17:49:19 (if they choose to) Sep 24 17:49:21 SpeedEvil: What I've seen makes me doubt it. The market in the US seems rather constrained Sep 24 17:50:06 there is one here, sites like wirefly.com Sep 24 17:50:23 I mean, in the UK the biggest high street names are the independant phone shops - carphone warehouse, phones4u are at least as recognised as the networks - CPW more so Sep 24 17:50:31 What pisses me off abou thte UK market is that you can't take the above contract with SIM only. Sep 24 17:50:38 IIRC someone said that CPW would be subsidising the n900, too Sep 24 17:50:44 bbiam Sep 24 17:50:45 Well - you can - but it's the same price as with a hundred quiddish phone Sep 24 17:51:01 somethings I'm going to miss from Finland then in UK Sep 24 17:51:14 Myrtti: oh? Sep 24 17:51:27 The mobile phone market is a lot less screwed now than it was a few years back. Sep 24 17:51:38 (in the UK) Sep 24 17:51:43 SpeedEvil: yes Sep 24 17:51:51 there's exactly one phone that you can't get from Finland without a contract Sep 24 17:52:03 * SpeedEvil wonders if it has a relation to fruit. Sep 24 17:52:05 and all contracts and all simcards work with all phones Sep 24 17:52:29 Myrtti: a phone with an apple logo somewhere? ;) Sep 24 17:52:33 javispedro: bingo Sep 24 17:53:42 <_berto_> Myrtti: is it locked to a single carrier ? Sep 24 17:53:50 If they could, Apple would make the iphone without a SIM card at all :-) Sep 24 17:54:05 <_berto_> ccooke: they did, it's called iPod Touch Sep 24 17:54:07 its strange.. considering its available unlocked elsewhere Sep 24 17:54:25 _berto_: I doubt any of the phones in finland are *really* locked to a sim and a sim carrier Sep 24 17:54:37 What happened with the screwing up unlocked legally iphone things on update/ Sep 24 17:54:42 i thought capacitive screens had problems in cold weather Sep 24 17:54:51 <_berto_> Myrtti: I mean, in Spain you can only get an iPhone from Telefonica, and I think it's the same in the US with AT&T Sep 24 17:54:56 and in detailed high precision environments Sep 24 17:54:58 UK = O2 Sep 24 17:55:06 <_berto_> O2 is Telefonica I think Sep 24 17:55:11 yes Sep 24 17:55:18 lcuk: and when wet Sep 24 17:55:36 _berto_: yeah, only one carrier that have it - but I don't know if the device has actual software restrictions that stop it working with any other sim/network than theirs Sep 24 17:55:40 mmm im not sure i would ever like to test that one Sep 24 17:55:53 tho ive seen nokia phone doofer of guy swimming then taking a call Sep 24 17:56:03 lcuk: no, I mean if your fingers are wet Sep 24 17:56:20 you cant use it? Sep 24 17:56:23 <_berto_> Myrtti: I say that because in some countries you can't sell it locked to a single carrier, all of them must be able to offer it Sep 24 17:56:37 Myrtti: apple has made significant efforts to lock it to a single carrier, both in the baseband and in the OS layer Sep 24 17:56:51 yeah.. locked phones were illegal here before, sadly someone managed to lobby it through Sep 24 17:56:52 lcuk: capacitive screens are unreliable when even slightly damp Sep 24 17:57:02 *shrug* I'm a Nokia fangirl, don't know, don't care Sep 24 17:57:02 interesting Sep 24 17:57:05 Myrtti: yeah it's locked in .fi, but if you pay off the full price of it, sonera must legally unlock it for you Sep 24 17:57:16 * lcuk smiles Sep 24 17:57:52 I had a Samsung phone for about a year once, hated it quite a lot Sep 24 17:58:16 lcuk: it's a little annoying on my current HTC Magic. Sep 24 17:58:45 * lardman|home realises he's given away his last old Nokia charger and now needs one for his other sim card Sep 24 17:58:48 ShadowJK: unfortunately apple has taking to blocking stuff in the OS if it's a non-authorized network, even on factory unlocked phones Sep 24 17:59:07 dragorn, good! Sep 24 17:59:22 <_berto_> well, you can't even use it without iTunes ... Sep 24 17:59:29 dragorn: what?? Sep 24 17:59:32 O.o Sep 24 17:59:35 itunes.. eww Sep 24 17:59:48 javispedro: looking for the article. it started with blocking push notifications, there's something new that they did recently Sep 24 18:00:12 i've understimated the iphone evilness again, seems. Sep 24 18:00:25 dragorn, maybe thats not conspiracy and just crapinterconnects ;) Sep 24 18:00:54 javispedro, of course you have - try to change the on device media player ;) Sep 24 18:01:20 easy. meld the phone and replace it with a sony walkman. Sep 24 18:01:21 javispedro: oh right, tethering Sep 24 18:01:43 javispedro: they've disabled tethering on non-authorized networks, even on legitimately unlocked phones Sep 24 18:01:50 javispedro: to prevent you from moving your data plan Sep 24 18:01:58 (well, if you use pc tethering, anyhow) Sep 24 18:02:10 that's a topic it has always surprised me. Sep 24 18:02:15 http://discussions.apple.com/thread.jspa?threadID=2151255&start=0&tstart=0 Sep 24 18:02:23 * lcuk remembers to file a bug actually Sep 24 18:02:44 so, even my years old phone allows you to use it as serial modem. Sep 24 18:02:58 <_berto_> for me the fact alone that it requires itunes is enough to stop me from even considering it Sep 24 18:03:04 then the word "tethering" started to appear all over the place and insteand of meaning "more connectivity options" meant less. Sep 24 18:03:29 * Myrtti is too geeky to have a iphone Sep 24 18:03:54 * lcuk is too old to have an iphone Sep 24 18:04:06 i learnt how to use a pencil Sep 24 18:04:10 * javispedro is too por to have an iphone Sep 24 18:04:14 and havent stopped since Sep 24 18:05:49 lbt, your fan assisted mer project Sep 24 18:05:51 <_berto_> i had the chance to try an ipod touch a year or two ago and I was shocked when I realized that I had to plug it to a computer with iTunes, otherwise it was just a brick Sep 24 18:05:54 hows it comin on Sep 24 18:06:13 _berto_: Indeed - broken. Sep 24 18:06:20 itunes doesn't install into wine Sep 24 18:06:26 cant you get the store to do that for you when you buy it, and then never use it again Sep 24 18:06:30 <_berto_> I agree that most people don't care Sep 24 18:06:31 can't be arsed to put up a vm for it Sep 24 18:06:37 Myrtti, drink more wine then Sep 24 18:07:43 _berto_: you can use it wirelessly though, download stuff from iTunes can't you? Sep 24 18:07:50 <_berto_> but well, I'm a happy linux user for more than 10 years and it's amazing that in 2009 we have to see this kind of things Sep 24 18:08:13 <_berto_> lardman|home: it was new, it hadn't been booted before Sep 24 18:08:29 <_berto_> it doesn't even boot for the first time if you don't have itunes Sep 24 18:08:39 lol. that total blenders consts $399.95 Sep 24 18:08:43 er. Sep 24 18:08:49 s/blenders consts/blender costs/ Sep 24 18:08:54 _berto_: really, oh well Sep 24 18:10:48 anyone know if the N800 used a different VIDEO_SRC to the N810? Sep 24 18:11:00 i.e. gconfv4l2src as opposed to v4l2src? Sep 24 18:11:09 I get errors trying to create the former Sep 24 18:11:24 GStreamer obviously ;) Sep 24 18:11:25 lardman|home: There is a video code example in the docs. Sep 24 18:12:10 lardman|home: diablo docs that is. Sep 24 18:12:16 yeah, seems to use plain v4l2src, but I want the src to flip the video for me Sep 24 18:12:23 if poss Sep 24 18:12:34 In Python a gconfv4l2src works, just not in C Sep 24 18:14:00 https://garage.maemo.org/frs/download.php/2700/camera_viewer.c Sep 24 18:14:04 perhaps I need to install something else on my N800 Sep 24 18:16:25 wao: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UhQA-06kSLU&NR=1 Sep 24 18:16:28 Star Trek Sep 24 18:16:29 rocks Sep 24 18:21:11 Hi Sep 24 18:26:05 hmm working, typo Sep 24 18:26:09 oops Sep 24 18:31:08 ENOBACON Sep 24 18:31:22 :) Sep 24 18:31:32 =] Sep 24 18:31:51 I've set my wife to work to correct that error ;) Sep 24 18:32:02 heh Sep 24 18:32:06 assuming I now survive to eat it Sep 24 18:32:26 Fry_up_some_lard_woman!() || ENOBACON Sep 24 18:32:29 you will survive eating, its whether its digestable without toxins thats the issue Sep 24 18:32:41 toxins schmoxins Sep 24 18:32:49 you forgot to use sudo Sep 24 18:34:05 well I've not moved back to C code Sep 24 18:34:18 far more lines than Python Sep 24 18:34:26 My pseudo code was perl anyway. :P Sep 24 18:34:32 but starts up quickly which is good Sep 24 18:34:46 jeremiah: ah no, this is not directly related Sep 24 18:34:54 is python startup time dependent on parsing the includes Sep 24 18:35:08 and what can be done Sep 24 18:35:14 imports Sep 24 18:35:22 yeah, only import some things? Sep 24 18:35:43 no, importing still needs to parse all the files Sep 24 18:35:50 even if you only do select things within a file Sep 24 18:36:07 i mean, can you do same sort of precompiled headers thing you can use with normal c++ type compilation Sep 24 18:36:21 to just load a binary blob Sep 24 18:36:26 slower to start first run Sep 24 18:36:36 but after that your subset is stored pre-parsed Sep 24 18:37:04 no idea Sep 24 18:37:09 pyrex Sep 24 18:37:31 me neither - but loading a single header generated by ctypes for liqbase was horrid Sep 24 18:37:36 and that only had 10 lines of code Sep 24 18:38:50 SWIG might be better then, generates a py class beforehand Sep 24 18:39:32 how can I get xvideosink to drop frames, set the sync property to fasle? Sep 24 18:39:37 false even Sep 24 18:40:17 xvimagesink also Sep 24 18:40:29 Set it to ture Sep 24 18:40:31 im not sure how it drops frames tbh Sep 24 18:40:37 qwerty12_N810: true? Sep 24 18:40:44 then it stays in sync with the pipeline? Sep 24 18:40:47 ctypes produced a .py file too Sep 24 18:40:56 lardman|home: Dunno, I was taking the piss Sep 24 18:41:08 oh Sep 24 18:41:14 useful :p Sep 24 18:41:19 ;) Sep 24 18:41:21 lardman|home: yo Sep 24 18:41:41 hi pupnik_ Sep 24 18:41:42 do you know any mp3 or ogg players that allow variation of playback rate (before rendering to pcm)"? Sep 24 18:41:45 http://code.google.com/p/unladen-swallow/wiki/ProjectPlan Sep 24 18:41:51 looking at mpg321 atm Sep 24 18:42:02 pupnik_: hold on, I found one in ubuntu Sep 24 18:42:04 pupnik_: non sorry, need pitch correction then Sep 24 18:42:26 here's one way to think about it Sep 24 18:42:29 yatm - Command line audio file player with time stretching capabilities Sep 24 18:42:36 you lie to the codec and say "render to 96khz Sep 24 18:42:43 wait no forget that :) Sep 24 18:42:50 * lcuk ponders diving into cpython and doing some digging Sep 24 18:43:06 Myrtti: that rules Sep 24 18:43:07 I found that looking for an audiobook player :-/ Sep 24 18:43:09 lcuk: swig is quite good Sep 24 18:43:20 lardman, i have a final .py file Sep 24 18:43:23 the *nonexistent* audiobook player Sep 24 18:43:24 * GeneralAntilles cackles evilly. Sep 24 18:43:28 its the startup time that bothers me for now Sep 24 18:43:30 pupnik_: must be a gstreamer element for that somewhere Sep 24 18:43:59 GeneralAntilles: macbook pro or gadget delivery day? Sep 24 18:44:10 _Mac_ Pro Sep 24 18:44:17 FedEx and UPS came one after another. Sep 24 18:44:25 awesome awesome awesome awesome Myrtti Sep 24 18:44:25 FedEx with the computer (which I totally wasn't expecting) Sep 24 18:44:27 * pupnik_ dances Sep 24 18:44:35 and UPS with all of the accessories. Sep 24 18:44:35 this is the most awesomest thing - interactive speed Sep 24 18:44:53 choose-your-bpm, gentlemen! Sep 24 18:45:11 spin device round head and haaaavvvvvveeeeeeeeeeee iiiiiiittttttttttt mess up Sep 24 18:45:25 haha listening to rap at 1y5 Sep 24 18:45:27 175% Sep 24 18:45:53 http://gizmodo.com/5366263/the-pink-phone-pictures-microsoft-doesnt-want-you-to-see-yet?skyline=true&s=x Sep 24 18:46:37 Eww, thanks, jeremiah, for ruining my otherwise good day Sep 24 18:46:43 heh Sep 24 18:46:45 Sorry Sep 24 18:46:53 it's not even PINK. Sep 24 18:46:58 sucks arse Sep 24 18:47:11 Ooops. Sorry Myrtti Sep 24 18:47:28 np, I chose to have pink in my hilights Sep 24 18:48:19 i love making speakers sound drunk Sep 24 18:48:36 jeremiah: What is it? A soapbox? Sep 24 18:49:25 A chunk O plastic Sep 24 18:49:55 hmm, response is still too slow Sep 24 18:51:48 * lardman|home goes to eat that bacon, amongst other things Sep 24 18:53:53 ok with all the stuff about n900 usb modes - i saw a think on the nokia pushn900 blog about making robots. http://blogs.nokia.com/pushn900/ Sep 24 18:54:41 somehow, the thought of making a killer robot control mechanism depend on bluetooth makes me somewhat queezy (and tingly with mad scientist laugh) Sep 24 18:56:14 should a killer robot droid be autonomous, or a simple remote controlled toy? Sep 24 18:56:18 autonomous RC heli controller :o Sep 24 18:56:42 Firebird, dont tell lbt, he is playing with making a cpu fan whirr Sep 24 18:56:50 skynet will be upon us Sep 24 18:57:14 Firebird, you would need a larger unit to carry n900 Sep 24 18:57:22 larger unit? Sep 24 18:57:31 would need ~18inch plus blades most likely Sep 24 18:57:36 no? Sep 24 18:57:45 does the thing weigh like 20 pounds? Sep 24 18:57:56 my indoor heli has trouble carrying any payload i try Sep 24 18:58:04 oh, I have a 450 sized heli Sep 24 18:58:08 hi! i need a little help Sep 24 18:58:16 mind you, finding enough packing tape to hold the cat still has its own problems Sep 24 18:58:36 lcuk, ever seen a hobby grade heli? http://site.xheli.com/trex450selarge.jpg Sep 24 18:58:39 gabriel, oh noes, whats up Sep 24 18:58:44 heh Sep 24 18:58:54 yeah - an outdoor model Sep 24 18:59:05 whats the rotor span Sep 24 18:59:07 it can lift 10lbs and chop your hand off, I'm sure it can handle the N900 Sep 24 18:59:18 i need a short answer, is possible compile a java 1.6 version for armv5 ? Sep 24 18:59:24 lcuk, ~650mm? Sep 24 18:59:34 which is how much in inches.. Sep 24 18:59:44 25 Sep 24 19:00:00 which is a bit bigger than my guess of ~18inches Sep 24 19:00:25 the N900 would be perfect with its accelerometers.. and maybe some external sensors Sep 24 19:00:28 yeah Sep 24 19:00:29 camera Sep 24 19:00:35 would be wicked and practical Sep 24 19:00:42 X-Fade, is a heli guy too :) Sep 24 19:00:45 -, Sep 24 19:00:56 don't want to trash my heli testing though :/ Sep 24 19:01:08 get it right first time then Sep 24 19:01:21 gabriel, unsure Sep 24 19:01:33 java isnt something i have dived into Sep 24 19:02:55 it's hot and opaque Sep 24 19:02:59 AVOID Sep 24 19:03:07 whell, a small context... i have a cross-compile environment configured (scratchbox armv5) and i download a recent official release of sun to armv5, when i tried to exec it, this shows a error with libpthread.so.0 library Sep 24 19:03:12 Firebird, besides, if you do it from a controller feedback loop - you could most likely work it using handheld and simulator Sep 24 19:03:31 to see how it responds Sep 24 19:03:46 RST38h: Lies, you actually, in secret, worship it like you do the Tentacled One Sep 24 19:04:12 well, then what good would the acceleromets be Sep 24 19:04:21 lcuk, like the n900 controling the transmitter? Sep 24 19:04:36 its one option for first generation Sep 24 19:04:42 rather than direct servo control Sep 24 19:04:54 gabriel: that is already pretty good news I would say , what is the output of "ldd java" Sep 24 19:05:25 n900 controling an aurdino board would be neat Sep 24 19:06:22 gabriel: https://wiki.evolvis.org/jalimo/index.php/Maemo Might be what you are looking for ( I don't know if it's 1.6) and I did not follow upon what sun has been up-to in the last years Sep 24 19:07:40 sorry :P Sep 24 19:07:46 gabriel: https://wiki.evolvis.org/jalimo/index.php/Maemo Might be what you are looking for ( I don't know if it's 1.6) and I did not follow upon what sun has been up-to in the last years Sep 24 19:08:43 Firebird, the aurdino is useful indeed, just thinking of your concerns about failure Sep 24 19:09:16 fly to 50' and if it fails go to manual control would/should work for failure Sep 24 19:10:55 qwerty: Yes, the more Java programmers, the more food for the Tentacled One. Sep 24 19:11:08 this is the output of ldd Sep 24 19:11:09 http://pastebin.com/m111e7666 Sep 24 19:11:49 Firebird, but if you have replaced the control mechanism with one from arduino that would be more difficult Sep 24 19:12:04 RST38h: But he's already so big... :/ Sep 24 19:12:10 one answer Sep 24 19:12:12 parachute Sep 24 19:12:21 parachute? into the blades? Sep 24 19:13:02 qwerty: He has got transcedental volume. Sep 24 19:13:07 good point lol Sep 24 19:13:22 big matress Sep 24 19:13:48 i think we should stick with landborne control mechanisms Sep 24 19:13:51 keesj, i'm downloading the package...(crossing fingers) Sep 24 19:13:56 learn to drive before we fly lol Sep 24 19:14:01 heh Sep 24 19:14:35 mini version of the darpa grand challenge Sep 24 19:14:43 drive around nokia store without bumping into legs Sep 24 19:15:08 all the while capturing some cgreat shots with the camera Sep 24 19:15:44 do you think they will let us use laser range finders Sep 24 19:16:36 sure... that would be neat, darpa grand challenge cars in full scale controlled by a phone-tablet Sep 24 19:19:58 * lcuk just surfed down the stairs :S Sep 24 19:20:20 i slipped and thought for sure i was gonna die Sep 24 19:20:32 better than getting killed in a nokia door Sep 24 19:20:33 but somehow i stayed on my feet and thudded down each one Sep 24 19:20:45 yeah Sep 24 19:20:58 i landed at the bottom and luke laughed Sep 24 19:21:25 i dont think i could do that again if i ever wanted to try Sep 24 19:21:47 Stskeeps: hehe Sep 24 19:22:33 Sts: Not killed, slowly DISMEMBERED. And that Nokia door has not finished with him yet. Sep 24 19:22:33 Firebird: See James Bond. Sep 24 19:22:46 Hello ;) Sep 24 19:23:00 * Firebird wonders why he is seeing James Bond Sep 24 19:23:15 * lcuk spits out milk Sep 24 19:23:18 RST38h, dont Sep 24 19:23:44 noo. Sep 24 19:23:53 moo, that is Sep 24 19:23:57 that door must have its own scp Sep 24 19:24:02 Any1 want invitatnion to lockerz xd? i have 15 invitations Sep 24 19:24:09 of course there is an scp for the door Sep 24 19:24:16 haha Sep 24 19:24:34 ovi = door.. coincidence? Sep 24 19:24:46 skynet. Sep 24 19:24:46 :P Sep 24 19:25:30 * lcuk shows you all the finger :P Sep 24 19:25:56 * Firebird shows lcuk a finger Sep 24 19:26:36 Firebird, :) you dont actually know what we are talking about do you lol Sep 24 19:26:45 nope :P Sep 24 19:27:02 * qwerty12_N810 does, but he shows lcuk his middle finger for the fuck of it Sep 24 19:27:19 .7.. Sep 24 19:27:47 wow, when did #maemo become my high school locker room? Sep 24 19:27:59 ohai snuxoll Sep 24 19:28:05 snuxoll: time travel Sep 24 19:28:11 firebird, pick a level - 1,2,3 increasing levels of blood Sep 24 19:28:12 yo Myrtti Sep 24 19:28:15 snuxoll: welcome to reality Sep 24 19:28:21 lcuk, 3? Sep 24 19:28:27 snuxoll: you have a "kick me" sticker on your back :D Sep 24 19:28:29 Myrtti: this is reality? I want my money back Sep 24 19:28:36 wazd: wouldn't be the first time Sep 24 19:28:59 snuxoll: yeah, sadly it is Sep 24 19:29:40 * snuxoll gives Myrtti a cupcake with pink frosting to compensate for a dull reality Sep 24 19:29:43 the times I've winced at the discussion... *sigh* Sep 24 19:29:55 bloody picture - i had the end pushed back over tho http://liqbase.net/finger1_beforestitch.jpg Sep 24 19:30:14 #maemo - now with more blood and gore Sep 24 19:30:20 lol sorry Myrtti Sep 24 19:30:25 blame nokia Sep 24 19:30:27 they started it Sep 24 19:30:36 no worries, I'm planning to dig a pit in front of the door Sep 24 19:30:40 trap pit Sep 24 19:30:44 :D Sep 24 19:30:54 Nokia doesn't start fights, that's Mann Co's job Sep 24 19:31:10 lcuk, doing a little too much sketching on the tablet? Sep 24 19:31:18 * SpeedEvil wishes he'd taken a picture of his finger injury. Sep 24 19:31:28 * snuxoll is glad SpeedEvil didn't Sep 24 19:31:31 I made a large diameter router bit for my dremel. Sep 24 19:31:35 nokia doesn't start fights, they give that task to subcontr^Wcommunity members Sep 24 19:31:40 It sliced up my finger good! Sep 24 19:31:41 ahaha Sep 24 19:31:44 yeah firebird Sep 24 19:31:58 ouch SpeedEvil Sep 24 19:32:03 SpeedEvil: my sister did something not too dissimilar, but with a handheld blender/mixer Sep 24 19:32:16 SpeedEvil: most enjoyable trip I've ever had to the ER Sep 24 19:32:41 only time I've hurt my finger was when I drilled right through it after the drill bit snapped Sep 24 19:32:58 ew Sep 24 19:32:59 grr, I can't seem to get my glasses clean Sep 24 19:33:19 pour boiling water over em and cut through the grease :P Sep 24 19:34:28 * lcuk is freezing Sep 24 19:34:44 which nokia mobile computers are waterproof Sep 24 19:34:45 * Myrtti has her furry slippers Sep 24 19:35:14 btw, screen on n900 seems v durable Sep 24 19:35:20 its been in my pocket with my keys :O Sep 24 19:35:50 curious, what does the N900 stylus look like? Sep 24 19:35:57 * snuxoll has a feeling he'll be waiting for the N900 US variant for a very long time Sep 24 19:36:07 the N810 one was/looked really cheap Sep 24 19:36:14 Firebird: lolololol Sep 24 19:36:17 Firebird, a beachball Sep 24 19:36:25 hurray >_> Sep 24 19:36:40 I thought the N810 stylus was elegant simple Sep 24 19:36:41 lcuk: is it a spinning beachball? Sep 24 19:36:49 lcuk: because I already have plenty of those Sep 24 19:36:49 if n810 is anything like the N800 one, it's about twice the level of professional than 770's stylus Sep 24 19:36:50 http://www.engadget.com/2009/09/24/hondas-u3-x-personal-mobility-device-is-the-segway-of-unicycles/ Sep 24 19:36:54 Fun. Sep 24 19:36:55 Firebird: my maemo controlled heli took off last night Sep 24 19:36:58 curiously after you said that i just whipped out both Sep 24 19:36:58 the N800 stylus was nice however, whth its nice metalic part on the end Sep 24 19:37:16 Honestly, the N900 doesn't need a stylus Sep 24 19:37:32 for normal use i agree qwerty Sep 24 19:37:35 And I'm an avid stylus-freak when it comes to the N8X0 Sep 24 19:37:37 shame it's not as advanced as you may hope :) Sep 24 19:37:38 but for writing its essential Sep 24 19:37:43 I have my long fingernails, I don't need a stylus in any case :-D Sep 24 19:37:43 lbt, mmhmm Sep 24 19:37:53 Myrtti, how do you write Sep 24 19:38:01 lcuk: thumbnails Sep 24 19:38:03 http://mynokiablog.files.wordpress.com/2009/09/stylus.jpg , hmm, looks like a larger version of the N810 stylus Sep 24 19:38:17 http://mer-l-in.blogspot.com/2009/09/want-to-push-need-kickstart.html Sep 24 19:38:31 its about 5mm longer Sep 24 19:38:32 lcuk: I don't write for shit; my handwriting is God-awful :) Sep 24 19:38:34 Firebird: I could go for that Sep 24 19:38:37 that looks like 770 stylus Sep 24 19:38:40 tho that stylus fits in n810 slot Sep 24 19:38:42 Firebird: though that is a f'ewge stylus Sep 24 19:38:43 used that control board DAC to manage the throttle pot on the R/c unit Sep 24 19:39:05 ah, nice lbt Sep 24 19:39:14 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nhsl5bOSk5Y Sep 24 19:39:21 10 minutes of bounce Sep 24 19:39:31 a full metal stylus would be nice Sep 24 19:39:32 for loosers without device :D Sep 24 19:39:59 woa, that almost blew up my sub-woofer Sep 24 19:40:08 lcuk: one of the reasons I've never warmed to N810, I'm really fast with two thumbs with long nails on the vkb Sep 24 19:40:11 I made a nice one out of a couple of sections of an antenna, filled with lead. Sep 24 19:40:28 Myrtti, thats not writing tho Sep 24 19:40:33 thats typing and i agree Sep 24 19:40:57 lcuk: I don't really write anything - I might draw, or annotate knitting pattern pdf Sep 24 19:41:04 * lcuk cavepaints Sep 24 19:41:29 but my nails are long enough to replace the stylus in any case Sep 24 19:41:54 my finger also now contains an implanted stylus - or it wouldv if the doctor had let me Sep 24 19:44:24 jamiebennet has robosapien Sep 24 19:44:36 we need to make an n900 pusher robot! Sep 24 19:44:41 to defeat the scum Sep 24 19:46:28 lbt, can you get your flying bot created in time lol Sep 24 19:46:44 probably not Sep 24 19:46:53 pusher bot wars FTW Sep 24 19:47:22 keesj, it would be great to have a reason lol Sep 24 19:47:42 awww shucks lbt Sep 24 19:47:52 Microsoft Opening Windows Cafe In Paris (Will they pour C# instead of java there?) Sep 24 19:48:04 * lcuk increases miliatry spending to include beer and cheese Sep 24 19:48:44 did you see the donuts with bacon at the kernel conference lcuk Sep 24 19:49:01 o_O no Sep 24 19:50:52 hey - would actually be really really cool to organise robot wars - nokia vs apple vs microsoft Sep 24 19:52:18 i suppose we need a real robot first Sep 24 19:52:34 Robot wars was kinda fun until those guys invented hypnodisc and all the rules started coming Sep 24 19:53:19 yeah, it was kinda impressive in its destructiveness Sep 24 19:54:10 chaos 2 was brutal too Sep 24 19:54:59 killer robots with cheesecake Sep 24 19:56:01 since when has flickr logo had yahoo on it too Sep 24 19:56:12 or on flickr Sep 24 19:56:29 bbl bath Sep 24 19:56:31 with rubber duck Sep 24 19:56:36 oooo Sep 24 19:56:49 I don't think I'm allowed baths yet :-( Sep 24 19:56:55 The rubber duck will be deflated by the time lcuk is done with it Sep 24 20:01:10 mmmm bacon Sep 24 20:01:19 * RST38h never understood why nobody used mass destruction weapons on Robot Wars Sep 24 20:01:19 heh Sep 24 20:01:42 lardman: I was expecting to see "lcuk" at the right of that bacon reference. what a surprise when I read "lardman" instead ;) Sep 24 20:02:12 oh, btw, hi :) Sep 24 20:02:27 A smallish thermobaric explosion - and you instantly win Sep 24 20:02:45 why smallish? Sep 24 20:02:59 because largish will destroy the video evidence Sep 24 20:03:05 I guess projectile weapons are forbidden too Sep 24 20:03:24 * javispedro remembers that BOFH story about a robot wars tournament were the winner robot was designed the search & destroy the humans instead of the robots Sep 24 20:03:25 also the audience, the anchor, and yourself Sep 24 20:03:42 hey javispedro Sep 24 20:03:56 heya Sep 24 20:04:08 I looked at the UK rules, and could find nothing precluding (at the time) a rocket engine to make your robot hover. Sep 24 20:04:22 Hover over your opponent - melting them. Sep 24 20:04:54 hmm, don't these things weigh at least 100kg? Sep 24 20:05:00 what about flamethrowers? Sep 24 20:05:11 not sure they are allowed, would be cool though Sep 24 20:05:23 I suspect the added weight limitations at some point? Sep 24 20:05:27 or rather quite toasty, for the audience too Sep 24 20:05:30 (and the house robots can ignore them) Sep 24 20:05:49 lardman: no - rocket engines can be whatever size you make them. Sep 24 20:05:53 ShadowJK: I meant the robot, you need quite a bit of thrust to lift that Sep 24 20:06:04 ah Sep 24 20:06:05 right Sep 24 20:06:12 depends how long you want to lift it for :) Sep 24 20:06:20 sorry wrong autocomplete Sep 24 20:06:25 Carmack's early rocket engines looked tiny compared to what they were lifting Sep 24 20:06:26 yeah true Sep 24 20:07:00 I liked his hydrogen peroxide stuff, although fuel availability is a problem :) Sep 24 20:07:02 Generally for sea-level use you want 14PSI or so at the exhaust - so 10 square inches for 140lb, ... Sep 24 20:07:16 ShadowJK: I found a source willing to ship me pallets of 95% Sep 24 20:07:26 SpeedEvil, awesome :-) Sep 24 20:07:28 IIRC ~1000e for 400l of 95% Sep 24 20:07:47 What was it that carmack wanted, 95% or 99%? and what was it that he then tried to use? Sep 24 20:07:49 95% what? Sep 24 20:07:54 * GeneralAntilles is failing to saturate 8 cores. Sep 24 20:07:56 H2O2? Sep 24 20:08:01 yeah Sep 24 20:08:07 GeneralAntilles: try harder! Sep 24 20:08:30 8 cores, show off! Sep 24 20:08:34 no doubt the RDF at work Sep 24 20:08:38 16 virtual. :P Sep 24 20:08:49 the 8 cores will always be enough right until the 16 cores Mac Pro shows up Sep 24 20:09:14 Well, 12 core. Sep 24 20:09:18 Which should be middle of next year. Sep 24 20:09:23 at which point suddenly 8 cores will feel like a 12-digit calculator Sep 24 20:09:45 Apple starts disabling them remotely. Sep 24 20:10:54 8 cores should feel like an 8-digit calculator shouldn't they? Sep 24 20:11:07 damn washing machines Sep 24 20:11:10 oh i hate hardware Sep 24 20:11:11 rofl: http://media.armadilloaerospace.com/2009_09_07/2009_09_07_Labor_Day_wiener_cam.wmv Sep 24 20:11:18 Now that's a creative use of a rocket ship Sep 24 20:12:09 GeneralAntilles, md5sum every file on your harddrive at the same time Sep 24 20:12:17 javis: do you hate hardware like I hate hardware, after finding out that certain sequences of opcodes corrupt TV encoder output? =) Sep 24 20:12:39 no. I hate hardware that can wet you. Sep 24 20:12:44 specially when it does so. Sep 24 20:12:48 hmm, will taste funky I bet, or is it an O2 H2 rocket? Sep 24 20:12:49 ah THAT hardware Sep 24 20:13:04 probably is from the exhaust Sep 24 20:13:33 i haven't followed them for ages, and they're always changing engine tech and fuels.. Sep 24 20:14:16 nice anyway :) Sep 24 20:14:41 right, GStreamer gurus, where are you all? Sep 24 20:15:01 lardman: oh, I once wrote a gstreamer demuxer, do I qualify? ;) Sep 24 20:15:08 yes, you win! Sep 24 20:15:36 so..... I have a fakesink and an xvimagesink, and a pretty tight barcode decoder loop, I'd like my xvimagesink to be less laggy Sep 24 20:15:53 barcode data comes from the handoff of the fakesink Sep 24 20:16:18 separate queues used for each sink, and the decoder runs in the handoff callback fn Sep 24 20:17:12 laggy as in? Sep 24 20:17:18 just slow Sep 24 20:17:20 ? Sep 24 20:17:27 variable, but perhaps 1 frame every few seconds Sep 24 20:17:39 so yes, slow Sep 24 20:18:31 er... dunno. Sep 24 20:18:49 interestingly, when I start up the pipeline, I get the YUV data output in the display window Sep 24 20:18:59 this lasts a few frames, then I get full screen Sep 24 20:19:14 i'd say wrong timestamp in gstbuffer, but then I don't know how fakesink works Sep 24 20:19:17 when I say YUV, I mean two small images and one large one at the bottom Sep 24 20:19:37 I've just disabled datamatrix decoding, now runs ok with sync turned off Sep 24 20:19:57 will have to try running the datamatrix decoding in a separate thread and see if that helps at all Sep 24 20:20:02 ah, so you're sure its a output thing? Sep 24 20:20:14 the strange display? Sep 24 20:20:22 yeah, just happens for a couple of frames though Sep 24 20:20:29 2 small then one large Sep 24 20:20:32 mmm inverted? Sep 24 20:20:38 all in one image Sep 24 20:20:49 yeah inverted, but this is an N800 so that's normal Sep 24 20:20:56 screenshot Sep 24 20:20:57 photo Sep 24 20:20:59 though not for the output of course Sep 24 20:21:17 hmm, let me try Sep 24 20:21:34 lardman|fed, I think it's an alcohol engine Sep 24 20:22:10 since they say nasa wanted them to make one that runs on methane, and they tried feeding methane to their alcohol engine with a few "tweaks", and that didn't work out Sep 24 20:22:11 i do not understand what you're doing, do you have two pipelines? Sep 24 20:22:40 (v4l ! fakesink) - - - - - > bar code decoding - - - - - > (src ! xvimagesink) ? Sep 24 20:23:10 javispedro: one pipeline with a tee Sep 24 20:23:23 splits to the xvimagesink and the fakesink Sep 24 20:23:36 ah, I see. Sep 24 20:23:43 right I have a photo, but have to go chuck the bins out, give me 5 Sep 24 20:23:56 If you have no split - is it nice and fast? Sep 24 20:24:22 In our build system, for arm builds, we need to force scratchbox to use Python 2.5.1. But the stupid scratchbox /scratchbox/tools/bin/python overrides anything you do, unless you move it out of the way. What's the best way to force SCons to use /usr/bin/python? Sep 24 20:25:04 two things. first one is that /scratchbox/tools/bin/python is in path. second is export SBOX_REDIRECT_IGNORE="/usr/bin/python" Sep 24 20:25:28 javispedro: So I have to do both, remove it from the path and set a redirect ignore? Sep 24 20:25:39 yes, both Sep 24 20:25:44 Okay thanks. Sep 24 20:26:15 Is there an absolute way to find where scratchbox has been installed? Sep 24 20:30:14 new version of theme maker in https://garage.maemo.org/frs/?group_id=36 Sep 24 20:30:32 * Stskeeps instantly downloads Sep 24 20:30:52 big improvements? Sep 24 20:37:58 re Sep 24 20:38:34 ShadowJK: nothing wrong with food cooked in alcohol of course ;) Sep 24 20:38:42 hi Sep 24 20:38:53 can anyone confiirm that the n900 supports Activesync? Sep 24 20:39:27 I can see on the official page that it mentions Exchange, but it's not clear if it supports push email and calendar updates over the air Sep 24 20:40:35 image here: http://people.bath.ac.uk/enpsgp/nokia770/temp/20090924_003.jpg Sep 24 20:41:02 just looks plain broken now I look harder at it Sep 24 20:41:19 perhaps something to do with the GStreamer caps negotiation Sep 24 20:41:33 in an effort to maximize screen space, we are trying to turn off the autocompletion widget used on n810 Sep 24 20:41:53 looks like I can pass something to GConf Sep 24 20:41:59 /apps/osso/inputmethod/hildon-im-languages/en_GB/word-completion Sep 24 20:42:04 there's a control panel setting iirc Sep 24 20:42:08 http://img.thedailywtf.com/images/200909/graphic_design_resume.gif Sep 24 20:42:12 but I want to do it for all languages Sep 24 20:42:28 have been summoned, back later Sep 24 20:42:39 lardman|fed: we only want to disable it for our app, not the entire device Sep 24 20:42:50 Now it's lardman's turn to make the bacon ;) Sep 24 20:42:53 mfinkle: ah, no idea then, good luck Sep 24 20:43:09 qwerty12_N810: that has a double entendre you know ;) Sep 24 20:43:47 mfinkle: ctrl+space hides/shows it Sep 24 20:43:57 qwerty12_N810: how do you make things start with lowercase in fields? wasnt there a option? Sep 24 20:44:15 Stskeeps: yeah, bringing up the API reference Sep 24 20:44:19 ah Sep 24 20:44:21 mfinkle: shift+space actually :P Sep 24 20:44:35 mfinkle: http://maemo.org/api_refs/4.0/gtk/GtkEntry.html#hildon-gtk-entry-set-input-mode Sep 24 20:44:37 javispedro: that's a good fallback for the end user Sep 24 20:45:20 lardman, scary, they bolted one of carmack's engine to an airplane and they found people who'd fly it Sep 24 20:45:25 Stability Level: Unstable Sep 24 20:45:26 uh? Sep 24 20:47:21 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xJJT8639Weo (rocket racer) Sep 24 20:47:57 qwerty12_N810: hmm, I was looking at that to disable the autocap feature too Sep 24 20:49:13 I haven't used it, personally, to disable anything other than auto-caps but using it to unset HILDON_GTK_INPUT_MODE_DICTIONARY may work... Sep 24 20:49:41 Hi there , This is Mauricio from Mexico Sep 24 20:51:44 I am Newbie on linux and i`m having a problem installing scratchbox, Sep 24 20:52:46 can some one confirm this: Sep 24 20:52:47 mau@mau:~> /home/mau//Documents/maemo-scratchbox-install_5.0beta2.sh -u mau Sep 24 20:52:58 is correct? Sep 24 20:54:12 javispedro: aw the shot from n900 with DrNokSnes icon in it :D Sep 24 20:54:20 wazd: :D Sep 24 20:54:21 s /aw/saw/ Sep 24 20:54:30 wazd: seen http://depot.javispedro.com/drnoksnes/fremantle.png ? Sep 24 20:54:51 javispedro: nope, looks awesome :) Sep 24 20:55:01 mau_mex, you may need to add bash to the front of that line Sep 24 20:55:15 :) Sep 24 20:59:47 Jaffa: Mer can't have it's own section in TMO until #mer gets karma Sep 24 21:01:49 is the n900 hitting us stores this sunday?! Sep 24 21:02:25 wiretapped: don't think so, mid-october? Sep 24 21:13:06 http://thenokiablog.com/2009/09/14/nokia-n900-available-september-27th/ Sep 24 21:13:28 that seems to be the source of all the 27th reports Sep 24 21:13:37 * wiretapped is ready Sep 24 21:13:49 hehe Sep 24 21:14:23 what about PL retailers? Sep 24 21:14:28 any info on that? Sep 24 21:14:34 or DE or other countries Sep 24 21:15:59 so if everything goes well, it will hit stores ~1st october in the US Sep 24 21:16:57 AStorm: "never"? =) Sep 24 21:17:30 RST38h: wrong, nokia.pl is offering it already Sep 24 21:17:35 in preorder Sep 24 21:17:40 ! Sep 24 21:17:55 Seriously though, unless it is an official Nokia blog, I doubt Sep 27 date Sep 24 21:18:13 yes, it's some "behind the curtains" info Sep 24 21:18:15 yes, seems to early. Sep 24 21:18:17 but it might be accurate Sep 24 21:18:27 Sep 27 is to the DISTRIBUTORS. Sep 24 21:18:36 retailers have to order it from them. Sep 24 21:18:53 that takes time, so I expect some first shops to offer it on 1st if it's accurate Sep 24 21:19:25 + other delays Sep 24 21:19:27 it is still too early date to be true Sep 24 21:19:41 so it might be beggining of October, for example Sep 24 21:19:41 it's possible. Sep 24 21:19:50 they have the devices likely in full production Sep 24 21:20:21 hardware isn't the only thing that has to be ready Sep 24 21:20:34 yes, but software has to be dogfood-ready Sep 24 21:20:39 and it already is. Sep 24 21:20:57 improvements can be done later. Sep 24 21:21:08 not in mass market situation Sep 24 21:21:18 yes in mass market situation Sep 24 21:21:23 what has iPhone done there? Sep 24 21:21:33 the dates I've seen for fr are more like oct end Sep 24 21:21:37 shipped with a really unfinished version of software Sep 24 21:21:44 oct 22 for expansys Sep 24 21:21:47 Corsac: possible too. Sep 24 21:22:11 http://www.expansys-usa.com/d.aspx?i=186949 Sep 24 21:22:31 the trick is that they can ship english-language versions before localizations are done Sep 24 21:23:09 same likely with Finnish and maybe other nordic. Sep 24 21:23:17 AStorm: comparisons to iphone are meaningless. Sep 24 21:23:21 *Finn? or maybe Suomi. w/e Sep 24 21:23:39 RST38h: sure they are meaningful. It's the only phone on the market with major internet support for updates. Sep 24 21:23:48 internet support? Sep 24 21:23:57 uh, support for internet updates. Sep 24 21:23:57 don't you have to plug the iphone to your itunes? Sep 24 21:24:04 yes, you have. Sep 24 21:24:10 but it's easy enough Sep 24 21:24:13 He means the jailbreaking community ;)) Sep 24 21:24:20 hmhm ok, internet support apple-side Sep 24 21:24:22 not client-sid Sep 24 21:24:23 as opposed to flashing firmware on other phones Sep 24 21:24:37 and getting it via weird channels Sep 24 21:25:40 well, iphone updates are reflash, aren't they? Sep 24 21:25:51 they are, but it's automated Sep 24 21:26:06 the updates try to retain files, apps and configuration Sep 24 21:26:20 that's what I call support for updates. Sep 24 21:27:37 even plain availability of improved firmware is better than what other phones allow Sep 24 21:27:54 s/allow/offer/ Sep 24 21:28:07 AStorm meant: even plain availability of improved firmware is better than what other phones offer Sep 24 21:28:07 ~ping Sep 24 21:28:09 ~pong Sep 24 21:28:10 yeah - and breaking existing functionality... Sep 24 21:28:35 SpeedEvil: happens, yes. Better than having broken existing non-functionality usually. Sep 24 21:28:40 S60 phones has had flash-from-PC for years and years... and now with s60v5 and s60v3.2 also pure client-side updates without need for computer.. Sep 24 21:28:54 ShadowJK: mmmm Sep 24 21:29:04 flash-from-pc with standard USB cable Sep 24 21:29:10 with included software to do that? Sep 24 21:29:13 yeah Sep 24 21:29:28 hmm, neat. Sep 24 21:29:50 users still don't care too much for offline updates Sep 24 21:30:02 that's why online update is so nice to have Sep 24 21:30:27 (like what S60v3.2, S60v5 and Maemo since Diablo something have) Sep 24 21:30:48 heck, the phone itself could remind you to check for updates Sep 24 21:31:10 If you buy a phone that is crippled by the operator though, the operator will first cripple/add bugs to the new firmware, or they just wont care and never give you a firmware upgrade Sep 24 21:31:23 yes, exactly Sep 24 21:31:24 the "tunings" Sep 24 21:31:36 instead of proper changes in configuration Sep 24 21:32:05 there should be either very good, update-friendly support for operator customizations Sep 24 21:32:15 or no operator customizations at all ;p Sep 24 21:32:51 most operators could live with a few logos Sep 24 21:32:57 and a bunch of default settings Sep 24 21:32:58 http://europe.nokia.com/get-support-and-software/download-software/device-software-update/faq#faq4 Sep 24 21:33:02 if you can't push a bugfix for a SMS overflow security hole over the air you'd think you'd be screwed Sep 24 21:33:23 ShadowJK: hey, you are still Sep 24 21:33:31 since people usually don't have data plans yet Sep 24 21:33:41 I am still? Sep 24 21:33:53 missed. mavhc ^ Sep 24 21:34:36 so you can't push in general Sep 24 21:34:48 instead, you can remind the user to pull/check Sep 24 21:35:21 Without Internet connectivity you're pretty screwed, because operators are utterly uncooperative and wont lift a finger to push updates of any sort Sep 24 21:35:32 ayup Sep 24 21:35:51 they could do that... send a bunch of prepared broadcast messages for example Sep 24 21:35:54 and that's why you should root all their phones and use them to DDoS their own network Sep 24 21:36:09 mavhc: lol Sep 24 21:36:24 stupid use of a rooted phone Sep 24 21:38:04 extra bonus if some ISP does push a rootkitbreaker Sep 24 21:38:13 which will work against unpatched phones Sep 24 21:38:26 prompting the users to upgrade manually if auto is unsafe or impossible Sep 24 21:39:16 or push an antivirus via the hole ;p Sep 24 21:39:53 (to catch all the dumb exploits that don't patch the hole themselves) Sep 24 21:39:54 ShadowJK, unless the operator sold the handset and have control over it, also, if they risk losing money, they will push Sep 24 21:40:11 they don't risk losing money usually Sep 24 21:40:19 since blah blah legal print Sep 24 21:40:33 I wouldn't be surprised if instead of pushing a OTA update, they insisted each handset be sent to the manufacturer for update Sep 24 21:40:46 yep Sep 24 21:41:01 which of course nobody will do Sep 24 21:41:04 * ShadowJK just avoids locked/crippled phones Sep 24 21:41:19 * Mousey hands ShadowJK a palm pre Sep 24 21:41:21 if a popular enough phone gets rooted in a funny way... they *will* lose money finally Sep 24 21:41:23 and have to think Sep 24 21:41:32 in my day job I'm actually currently in the process of discussing the feasability of implementing an authentication platform for mobile devices that would allow operators to give users access to specific features -- one of the features mainly talked about would be allowing (forcing is more like the word) user access to a specific piece of information Sep 24 21:41:52 this comes from the idea that the more advanced the devices become, the greater the risk of a widespread "attack" Sep 24 21:41:56 crashanddie_: goodluckwiththat Sep 24 21:42:34 until some large operator gets bit by that, it's unlikely to be implemented Sep 24 21:42:47 on recent s60 you get a popup when new firmware version is available :-) Sep 24 21:42:55 and on Maemo we get the orange blinking ! :D Sep 24 21:42:59 from an authentication point of view, it's not necessarily hard -- it's the handset step that's pretty damn complicated (and out of scope for my work, I might add) Sep 24 21:43:02 *if* you have a data plan Sep 24 21:43:22 it should blink some annoying message if you haven't connected and checked for updates in X time. Sep 24 21:43:26 AStorm, no, the whole point would be that you give users data access for such a feature Sep 24 21:43:41 you mean like minor trickle? Sep 24 21:43:46 minor trickle? Sep 24 21:43:47 free packets? Sep 24 21:43:49 yeah Sep 24 21:43:59 only for specific updates or software pushes, though Sep 24 21:44:20 yep Sep 24 21:44:22 good enough Sep 24 21:44:29 but operator maintenance heavy Sep 24 21:44:38 they get to enable each update to be fetched in that way Sep 24 21:44:38 well, it's a start Sep 24 21:45:01 I guess a separate APN for updates Sep 24 21:45:02 that is, until they get an automated tool that does that Sep 24 21:45:11 ShadowJK: good idea, yes Sep 24 21:45:28 I'm not a big fan of reinventing the wheel anyway Sep 24 21:45:48 When operators stop living in the 20th century and step into the 21st century and give us the datapipe we want, we'll all be better off Sep 24 21:46:17 yeah, when they stop caring about extra $$$... oh really? Sep 24 21:46:58 once that happens (a true unlimited data plan with enough bandwidth behind it to make it fast enough), there will be no way back ;p Sep 24 21:47:08 Well US will always be years behind others when they've got such good lock-ins to limit competition :) Sep 24 21:47:21 I think it has happened here Sep 24 21:47:22 what lock-ins? Sep 24 21:47:26 it's same in EU Sep 24 21:47:48 ShadowJK: no, they dropped the "unlimited" part Sep 24 21:47:54 Well they've got different frequencies and different tech so it's difficult to make a phone that works on them all Sep 24 21:47:55 very very quickly Sep 24 21:48:03 they haven't dropped it here yet Sep 24 21:48:04 so it felt more like a marketing move to me Sep 24 21:48:19 yeah yeah Sep 24 21:48:25 check if you have no transfer limit Sep 24 21:48:38 unless the link is fairly slow... ;p Sep 24 21:48:44 or number of users low Sep 24 21:48:44 If I have, it's more than 30 gigs per month, which they claimed I did last month Sep 24 21:48:57 hehe Sep 24 21:49:14 consider what would happen if people started using those connections as main ones Sep 24 21:49:32 People have already started doing that :) Sep 24 21:49:34 they likely won't anyway (since land-based are faster, lower latency and more reliable) Sep 24 21:49:46 yes, started Sep 24 21:49:54 the question is, will some kind of "boom" happen Sep 24 21:52:37 whether really large cell-phone data transfers become common Sep 24 21:52:45 (as in, say, monthly total) Sep 24 21:53:23 4G LTE is supposed to bring flat IP(v6?) architecture Sep 24 21:54:15 3GPP LTE actually, or 4G Sep 24 21:57:00 hm, in 2008, 10% of the .fi population has mobile internet subscribtion... Sep 24 21:57:16 and 30% used "mobile internet data services" Sep 24 22:03:45 finland is a small country and quite a special case Sep 24 22:03:50 oh btw.. Sep 24 22:03:53 "A data rate of at least 100 Mbit/s between any two points in the world," Sep 24 22:04:05 this reminds me of a quote from Space Odyssey Sep 24 22:04:05 http://www.daimi.au.dk/~cvm/mermantle.png <- mer, hildon-desktop, mesa sw rendering Sep 24 22:04:08 x86 Sep 24 22:04:14 AStorm, special case how? :-) Sep 24 22:04:36 maybe special in the way that we had competitive environment :/ Sep 24 22:04:37 (corrupted)"He knew how to do it, but didn't know what it was good for. He'd think of something" Sep 24 22:04:44 ;p Sep 24 22:05:04 ShadowJK: exactly that Sep 24 22:05:21 and Finland has had mobile services with national range for how long in comparison? Sep 24 22:06:03 no national 3G coverage yet :D Sep 24 22:06:25 3G is one thing, I'm talking about voice Sep 24 22:06:37 and then data (2G is ok there too) Sep 24 22:06:56 since forever :) Sep 24 22:07:19 Though it reached widespread use in mid 90s iirc Sep 24 22:07:51 see, that's longer in most other countries I think Sep 24 22:07:58 *than in Sep 24 22:09:12 Yeah, but the infrastructure has to be rebuilt every 5-10 years anyway :) Sep 24 22:14:27 no, most of it not. Sep 24 22:14:38 usually it's a partial update Sep 24 22:18:04 depends on the technology Sep 24 22:21:25 2G -> 3G -> 3G+ -> ...? Sep 24 22:21:38 or rather, 2G -> 2.5G -> 3G -> 3G+ -> ... Sep 24 22:21:50 yes, base stations have to be replaced Sep 24 22:21:54 what exactly is 3g+? HSPA? HSPA+? Sep 24 22:22:04 HSPA and HSPA+ is mostly same Sep 24 22:22:11 but it is HSPA. Sep 24 22:22:21 gsm -> gprs -> edge -> 3g -> hsdpa (in about 7 generations) -> hsupa -> hsdpa+ Sep 24 22:22:41 there are quite a few extra features in hspa+ afaik Sep 24 22:23:07 And the backbone capacity and links to the cells msut be upgraded to ethernet, and the capacity must be constantly upgraded when bandwidth is growing 10X per year on cellphone networks :) Sep 24 22:23:22 yes, it's a lot of trouble Sep 24 22:23:58 not that much really, more a question of money and how often you upgrade Sep 24 22:24:14 It's also a question of trouble :) Sep 24 22:24:29 in a good modular design, the radio part would be replaced Sep 24 22:24:32 bandwidth can wait Sep 24 22:24:44 since users won't upgrade their devices fast enough Sep 24 22:24:57 then you do a lumped bandwidth update Sep 24 22:25:31 I mean total bandwidth use, not individual user's maximum speed Sep 24 22:25:44 Stskeeps: wow Sep 24 22:25:48 total bandwidth is unimportant Sep 24 22:25:54 what is important is peak bandwidth Sep 24 22:26:04 Stskeeps: glx? Sep 24 22:26:14 and maybe RMS bandwidth ;p Sep 24 22:26:15 javispedro: mesa on virtualbox Sep 24 22:26:22 (sw render) Sep 24 22:26:23 Stskeeps, I mean, opengl instead of ogles. Can you test if the color swap bug appears? Sep 24 22:26:38 yes, it's instead of ogles Sep 24 22:26:41 AStorm, peak to trough is only factor of 2 or so and year on year growth was a factor of 11 2006-2007, for example :) Sep 24 22:26:56 but what was the baseline for that growth? :p Sep 24 22:27:07 note that you can't extrapolate trends too far Sep 24 22:27:18 yeah it was about 5X 2007-2008 :) Sep 24 22:27:23 otherwise car sales would still be increasing 10% per year ;p Sep 24 22:27:32 (to 200%) Sep 24 22:28:00 99% of traffic produced by computers not (smart)phones :) Sep 24 22:28:12 this is the useful modelling tool: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gompertz_curve Sep 24 22:28:19 Stskeeps: but of course, very nice :) I hope the transitions are resolution independent :) Sep 24 22:30:18 AStorm: out of curiosity, how many do you think are the differences between hspa and hspa+? Sep 24 22:30:57 MIMO support. Sep 24 22:31:16 (on the receiver side) Sep 24 22:31:24 some firmware upgrade on the operator side Sep 24 22:31:27 downlink yes Sep 24 22:31:35 javispedro: think transitions are copyrighted and we really dont want them Sep 24 22:31:59 the software is what changes the bandwidth used though, noone sends videos unless sending videos is easy Sep 24 22:32:23 mavhc: true, and even if it is easy, no one sends because there's not enough targets Sep 24 22:32:30 again, Gompertz curve ;p Sep 24 22:33:01 AStorm: so if you add MIMO to 3GPP release 6 you have HSPA+? Sep 24 22:33:10 kpel: let me check Sep 24 22:33:28 MIMO needs communication between cells Sep 24 22:33:33 but that is likely already there Sep 24 22:33:46 it adds overhead Sep 24 22:34:03 you need 64QAM support. Sep 24 22:34:21 likely a firmware update on most well-designed sending devices Sep 24 22:34:24 but i find it hard to believe that MIMO is the only difference Sep 24 22:34:35 MIMO and 64QAM. Sep 24 22:34:38 (new modulation) Sep 24 22:34:44 at L1 maybe Sep 24 22:34:51 yes. Sep 24 22:35:00 there are more features in the rest of the stack Sep 24 22:35:26 nah. Sep 24 22:35:36 an *optional*, but reommended feature is IP support Sep 24 22:35:43 *recommended Sep 24 22:35:50 flat IP. Sep 24 22:36:45 that's just one thing. There have been quite a few changes since rel6 Sep 24 22:36:53 minor really. Sep 24 22:36:56 software upgrades Sep 24 22:37:23 well, maemo is software. is it a minor component? Sep 24 22:37:33 not *this* software Sep 24 22:37:38 receiver firmware Sep 24 22:37:46 just because you make changes in the baseband it doesn't mean the changes are minor Sep 24 22:37:48 you can get partial HSPA+ with one receiver Sep 24 22:37:54 just supporting 64QAM Sep 24 22:38:08 that may or may not be easy. Sep 24 22:38:19 (depending on the receiver used) Sep 24 22:38:46 Maemo users who want to listen to lectures speeches might be interested in 'yatm' - can play back mp3/ogg/speex at faster and slower rates keeping the pitch steady. Sep 24 22:39:02 blah. Sep 24 22:39:09 maybe autobuilder it - console app Sep 24 22:39:12 may I point those users to sox? Sep 24 22:39:15 ;p Sep 24 22:39:30 it has time scaling effects as well Sep 24 22:39:38 write a simple script and you have yatm Sep 24 22:40:46 no Sep 24 22:40:47 (unless yatm has some higher quality or DSP accelerated effect, that is) Sep 24 22:40:49 sox supports mp3? Sep 24 22:40:53 sure it does. Sep 24 22:40:57 you fail to grasp the essence of tai quan leep Sep 24 22:41:05 approach so that you may learn Sep 24 22:41:10 Sep 24 22:41:18 that's why I don't approach ;p Sep 24 22:41:28 ever heard that comedy skit? Sep 24 22:41:35 very funny - 'boot to the head' Sep 24 22:41:38 the question is, why nobody used sox enough Sep 24 22:41:50 anyway the sound quality of resampling time-stretch sucks Sep 24 22:41:57 it even has fairly easy libsox Sep 24 22:42:06 what you want is to slowdown/speedup playback within the decoder Sep 24 22:42:09 pupnik64: resampling? it's not resampling Sep 24 22:42:13 because that way you don't get stuttering effects Sep 24 22:42:35 no, you can't simply "slowdown" playback in the decoder Sep 24 22:42:38 that would lower the pitch Sep 24 22:42:53 hahah Sep 24 22:42:56 you have to cut the signal into pieces then reconstruct missing data (somehow) Sep 24 22:42:57 wanna bet? Sep 24 22:42:59 how much? Sep 24 22:43:00 then repaste the pieces Sep 24 22:43:12 bet you whatever you want you're wrong Sep 24 22:43:15 yatm seems to cut some parts of the tune Sep 24 22:43:18 pupnik64: show me. Sep 24 22:43:24 at least a constant beat gets turned into an irregular one Sep 24 22:43:25 I mean, the code. Sep 24 22:43:37 mp3 and ogg represent sound in the frequency domain Sep 24 22:43:51 partially, yes Sep 24 22:43:55 in a certain slice of time, they store the various intensities of frequencies from 20 to 20khz Sep 24 22:43:58 or something like that Sep 24 22:44:02 you can't just take the windowed signal and move apart the windows Sep 24 22:44:11 you have to regenerate signal between them Sep 24 22:44:13 that's resampling. Sep 24 22:44:29 so you still get to time-stretch the signa. Sep 24 22:44:34 +l Sep 24 22:44:39 each snapshot in the frequency domain can be visualized as a series of sine wave oscillators at different intensities Sep 24 22:44:53 i.e. you have a whole series of sine wave oscillators from 20hz to 20khz Sep 24 22:44:57 I know how DFT works, thanks. Sep 24 22:44:59 :) Sep 24 22:45:06 or MDCT actually. Sep 24 22:45:20 if you let them 'ring on' you can let as much time go by as you want before adjusting them to the next frame's intensities Sep 24 22:45:23 or even windowed MDCT which is what MP3 does. Sep 24 22:45:24 and the pitches stay the same Sep 24 22:45:36 so you stretch window transitions Sep 24 22:45:41 right Sep 24 22:45:44 that will sound uneven and horrible. Sep 24 22:45:48 :) Sep 24 22:45:58 that may be what this thing does Sep 24 22:46:06 much better than resampling and pasting different echoes over each other Sep 24 22:46:08 it might work for noise-like signals... sometimes Sep 24 22:46:14 which means speech Sep 24 22:46:21 no no, not *over* each other Sep 24 22:46:22 between Sep 24 22:46:24 no, you get a perfectly smooth transition from one frame to another Sep 24 22:46:29 the idea is that you don't really resample Sep 24 22:46:35 completely unlike chopping-up the wave into 30ms frames and overlapping them Sep 24 22:46:37 a constant beeping "accelerated" throught this tool sounds like random beeping Sep 24 22:46:39 that is what sox does Sep 24 22:46:43 and mplayer Sep 24 22:46:58 you do something like: take the samples you have, run a ZOH between (or some better interpolation), lowpass Sep 24 22:47:06 uh, cut into pieces Sep 24 22:47:24 all samples. Sep 24 22:47:39 since MP3 is pre-cut... Sep 24 22:47:41 pupnik64: It doesn't work right - you need to rewindow the signals. Sep 24 22:47:51 you *could* use that knowledge to improve quality some Sep 24 22:47:56 pupnik64: And it's more complex than that as you're screwing with it. Sep 24 22:47:56 not a whole lot though Sep 24 22:48:19 But it's not something that's sane to put into each codec - it would be a lot of hairiness in each codec. Sep 24 22:48:23 vs one filter. Sep 24 22:48:33 hmm Sep 24 22:49:17 You fundamentally cannot achieve a perfect pitch shifting. Sep 24 22:49:24 Information will always be lost. Sep 24 22:49:40 or missing. Sep 24 22:50:04 (and guessed, oh I mean interpolated) Sep 24 22:50:17 yeah. Sep 24 22:50:28 SoX tempo effect does a smart thing for shortening Sep 24 22:50:29 If you're speeding up time, youhave to merge adjacent windows Sep 24 22:50:36 in that it uses good overlap-based check Sep 24 22:50:40 If you're slowing it down, you need to duplicate Sep 24 22:50:57 You'll always have wierd phase effects though. Sep 24 22:50:57 picking right samples to merge using least squares fit Sep 24 22:51:06 an analogue would be zooming-in on a jpeg. because a function is describing the color curve, you get automatic interpolation Sep 24 22:51:06 yeah. Sep 24 22:51:21 SpeedEvil: not really, esp. not for integer sample ratios Sep 24 22:51:43 AStorm: I mean for arbitrary ratios. Sep 24 22:52:01 arbitrary ratios won't have phase distortion either in a good filter design Sep 24 22:52:22 I don't think you can avoid it in the multi-tone case Sep 24 22:52:27 but that doesn't change the fact that the data has been interpolated. Sep 24 22:52:28 Sure you can in the single tone. Sep 24 22:52:39 I mean phase distortion at the joins Sep 24 22:52:39 yatm doesn't slow down or speed up anything in the decoder. Sep 24 22:52:40 multi-tone is possible too, but interpolation is guess-work Sep 24 22:53:11 you can either copy a window of the signal (likely short) Sep 24 22:53:26 or interpolate Sep 24 22:53:37 both solutions are guesses. Sep 24 22:53:50 Unless it's a midi file. Sep 24 22:53:55 copy (+ lowpass) will work better for multi-tone likely Sep 24 22:53:57 In which case you can do it right ;) Sep 24 22:55:37 and sox algorithm is tuned for real music. Sep 24 22:56:12 for expected noise-like signals you can do extra noise restoration Sep 24 22:56:15 to remove some artifacts Sep 24 22:56:19 * GeneralAntilles chuckles http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p=333230&postcount=173 Sep 24 22:56:38 One of the AAC modes encodes noise just by its statistical properties :) Sep 24 22:56:38 instead of copying, you'd guess the kind of noise to insert Sep 24 22:56:46 yes yes, you mean HE-AAC Sep 24 22:56:52 probably Sep 24 22:56:53 ShadowJK: wow Sep 24 22:57:16 Vorbis does something similar as well, but not patent-infringing Sep 24 22:57:34 Not infringing on declared AAC patents, anyway Sep 24 22:57:42 yes Sep 24 22:58:24 for speech, you can use an inverse version of speech codec Sep 24 22:58:36 like Speex algorithms for error correction Sep 24 22:58:53 s/correction/masking/ Sep 24 22:58:53 AStorm meant: like Speex algorithms for error masking Sep 24 22:59:20 At the end of the day though, you can't create more information than what is contained in the original signal :) Sep 24 22:59:32 Sure you can! Sep 24 22:59:38 Though it won't be meaningful. Sep 24 22:59:42 you lie. Sep 24 22:59:44 :) Sep 24 22:59:53 SpeedEvil, right :) Sep 24 23:00:19 It's funny how many people are fooled by 320x240 resolution videos upsampled to HD, with noise added to make it look like very tiny pixels Sep 24 23:00:21 hrm, why is "report abuse" louder than the actual comment text on, say, http://maemo.org/packages/package_instance/view/fremantle_extras-testing_free_armel/conboy/0.5.4 Sep 24 23:01:27 SpeedEvil: it's guesswork anyway ;p Sep 24 23:01:36 hm, how can you tell if library packages have made it to extras[-testing]... /me is still waiting to push his packages to testing Sep 24 23:01:38 but it's better guesswork than dumb guesses made by interpolation Sep 24 23:01:40 or copy Sep 24 23:03:50 * SpeedEvil wonders if there is a library of pathalogical cases. Sep 24 23:04:17 For example - I have a meatloaf album that some of the tracks leap out and smack you in the face with compression artifacts if encoded in mp3 under 320k Sep 24 23:05:08 heh Sep 24 23:05:37 SpeedEvil: MP3 is old. still, I bet LAME can do good work on it. Sep 24 23:05:54 good enough that you won't be able to ABX prove that you can hear it Sep 24 23:05:55 * perform filtering on decoded frame Sep 24 23:06:11 note "decoded" Sep 24 23:06:14 :) Sep 24 23:07:00 bug 5190 Sep 24 23:07:03 looking at yatm.cc Sep 24 23:07:11 AStorm: that was with lame Sep 24 23:07:21 AStorm: admittedly an old version. Sep 24 23:07:23 SpeedEvil: tried with VBR yet? Sep 24 23:07:24 what should ~isdigit("9") return? Sep 24 23:07:27 how old? Sep 24 23:07:33 (it was running on overclocked ppro 160s0 Sep 24 23:07:39 Even the yatm website says it uses soundtouch Sep 24 23:07:47 3.90.sth + is fairly good Sep 24 23:07:52 but later have many tunings Sep 24 23:07:58 The album had some wierd 70s stereo effects Sep 24 23:08:14 ShadowJK: oh, soundtouch is suck compared to SoX Sep 24 23:08:29 it should steal^Wborrow some algorithms Sep 24 23:08:34 or become a thin wrapper ;p Sep 24 23:08:54 although it might have a slight advantage in speed. Sep 24 23:09:20 yatm.cc exists? Sep 24 23:09:28 mplayer's scaletempo is "WSOLA technique with cross correlation", "inspired by SoundTouch" Sep 24 23:09:28 OpenDNS doesn't know about it. Sep 24 23:09:40 ShadowJK: hehehe Sep 24 23:09:49 that was also what SoX previous algorithm did Sep 24 23:09:52 yeah mplayer tries to adjust the overlap window Sep 24 23:10:02 it ends up bunching-together consonant frames Sep 24 23:10:04 it fails miserably Sep 24 23:10:07 :) Sep 24 23:10:11 AStorm, filename not domain name Sep 24 23:10:46 ahh. Sep 24 23:10:48 drat. Sep 24 23:10:52 link please? Sep 24 23:11:05 since "yatm" is not googlable Sep 24 23:11:27 AStorm: you might be surprised. it is. Sep 24 23:11:33 first hit here. Sep 24 23:11:43 wtf? Sep 24 23:11:51 it's that "Yet another time machine"? Sep 24 23:11:54 yes. Sep 24 23:11:55 talk about a good name Sep 24 23:11:56 ;p Sep 24 23:12:00 or a good title Sep 24 23:12:45 http://maemo.org/community/brainstorm/view/make_cellular_data_stats_easier_for_users_to_find/ Sep 24 23:12:50 Make your voice heard, plz. Sep 24 23:12:57 :> Sep 24 23:13:13 maybe provide a panel plugin to show these? Sep 24 23:13:19 argh, s/~/! Sep 24 23:13:22 or desktop or whatever it's called now Sep 24 23:13:24 dashboard? Sep 24 23:13:56 Solution 1: Desktop Widget Sep 24 23:14:02 pupnik64: sox uses an empirically derived window size Sep 24 23:14:08 Solution 2: Status Area menu Sep 24 23:14:09 ;) Sep 24 23:14:24 lardman|home: !isdigit("9") will return a non zero value, since "9" is a string ;) Sep 24 23:14:26 What about Settings->connection manager ;-D Sep 24 23:14:31 oh Sep 24 23:14:38 and isdigit takes chars. Sep 24 23:14:45 so it will also emit a compiler warning. Sep 24 23:14:52 so when you're rating an app, it makes a net call without any feedback Sep 24 23:14:59 ShadowJK: not convenient enough Sep 24 23:15:02 ShadowJK: Far too buried. Sep 24 23:15:04 so I was sorta clicking at it thinking it's not working Sep 24 23:15:45 hehe Sep 24 23:15:46 wth Sep 24 23:15:52 javispedro: that's what I thought, but I was thinking in a different lang, hence the s/~/! bit Sep 24 23:15:58 I thumbed up this app twice?! Sep 24 23:16:00 ShadowJK: mean anything ? : http://pastebin.com/fbe059a5 Sep 24 23:16:05 ah, python? Sep 24 23:16:17 sp3000: bad server is bad. it should be fixed to drop replayed votes Sep 24 23:16:20 on Symbian it's menu -> control panel -> Connectivity -> Connectivity Manager -> Active data connections, or: menu -> log -> packet data Sep 24 23:16:39 maybe by doing it like real people - tacking a random-generated id Sep 24 23:16:40 AStorm: well, or it should be just counting people, not votes Sep 24 23:16:40 in the form. Sep 24 23:16:55 since it's showing people anyway Sep 24 23:17:01 so now I get listed twice :) Sep 24 23:17:05 he :) Sep 24 23:17:05 * sp3000 feels special Sep 24 23:17:39 I liked how it was showing me "9 out of 10" with "10 up 0 down" before I reloaded Sep 24 23:18:42 javispedro: MATLAB Sep 24 23:18:45 I like votes with stdev shown Sep 24 23:18:55 :) Sep 24 23:19:05 good for esp. larger number of ratings Sep 24 23:19:16 nice measure of polarization as well Sep 24 23:19:43 ShadowJK: Yes, again, that's far too buried especially on a device where you're bound to use more data naturally. Sep 24 23:20:17 menu->log->packet data is almost good Sep 24 23:20:34 On the other hand, this is the kind of device where its entire design purpose is defeated by not having always-on connectivity, so it'd be kinda silly to not have unmetered plan ;) Sep 24 23:20:40 albeit a panel plugin would be nice for people who have to track usage all the time Sep 24 23:20:51 or maybe show it in browser? Sep 24 23:21:59 I don't really know the Maemo 5 UI, other than it looks cool Sep 24 23:22:05 don't know what is possible there Sep 24 23:23:27 pupnik64: soundtouch has one plus - all of its effects are real-time tunable Sep 24 23:23:33 ShadowJK: Except that almost no parts of the world have unmetered plans so... Sep 24 23:23:52 yeah, like 1GB Sep 24 23:24:05 or even prepaid Sep 24 23:24:14 where your connection can just end. Sep 24 23:25:07 A spike meter would be nice. Sep 24 23:25:12 (in subscription data plans, it usually only downgrades to very low speed - here it's 64 kbps) Sep 24 23:25:22 SpeedEvil: ? Sep 24 23:25:33 'don't bother me if I'm using the device and datarate is under 10k/s or a total of 1M/session' Sep 24 23:25:53 But I want to know right away if something uses 400K/s or 2M Sep 24 23:25:55 aah Sep 24 23:26:07 you mean like ntop? Sep 24 23:26:09 :) Sep 24 23:26:24 Stupid silent flash animation ate 20M of my 3G quota the other night Sep 24 23:27:26 http://www.ntop.org/overview.html - this is how ntop looks like Sep 24 23:28:01 but a variant optimized for tiny devices Sep 24 23:28:10 hmmh Sep 24 23:28:30 spike detector is fairly trivial Sep 24 23:28:46 yeah - very. Sep 24 23:28:46 but it won't discern loading a website from loading a flash movie in short bursts Sep 24 23:29:08 good enough though, maybe someone can make a MicroB extension like that Sep 24 23:29:14 I can't write XUL/JS that well Sep 24 23:30:06 what's more, MicroB has enough info to know that it's e.g. flash dling a lot of data Sep 24 23:30:39 I always surf with images and flash off when on metered :) Sep 24 23:31:07 Might as well just be on a standard cell phone then. Sep 24 23:31:18 there's metered and metered Sep 24 23:31:28 Nah, on opera mini I just set image quality to lowest :) Sep 24 23:31:45 metered comes in three kinds: 1) you pay more 2) link breaks 3) link degrades Sep 24 23:31:46 * ShadowJK used to have 20meg monthly quota :D Sep 24 23:31:55 of the "you pay more" variety Sep 24 23:32:16 I am "lucky" to have the last variety Sep 24 23:32:29 then they came out with the 100meg package, that was awesome Sep 24 23:32:36 so can e.g. use IRC and view websites on slow link Sep 24 23:32:38 and then the 64kbps unmetered :D Sep 24 23:32:42 and even maybe check mail ;p Sep 24 23:33:01 now I have 2Meg unmetered Sep 24 23:33:09 yeah, 64kbps is likely similar to a width of normal phone call Sep 24 23:33:14 and live outside 3G coverage area :/ Sep 24 23:33:23 hehe. Sep 24 23:33:28 I used to not even get edge here Sep 24 23:33:32 that's why they could give 2M unmetered Sep 24 23:33:40 since few people will have access anyway ;p Sep 24 23:33:54 Except there was one base station 10km away with edge. If I covered the phone with hands, the signal would degrade and it would have to switch to another cell Sep 24 23:34:01 and if I was lucky it picked the one with edge Sep 24 23:34:21 huh. Sep 24 23:34:33 I had a funny problem once, in the mountains Sep 24 23:34:40 the phone saw 2 cells with similar signal Sep 24 23:34:44 and switched between them Sep 24 23:35:14 since it's HSPA and not HSPA+ (which sports cell coordination), the connection broke on each switch Sep 24 23:35:44 just a funny place with almost equal signal from both cells Sep 24 23:36:00 moved some meters down, all was good ;p Sep 24 23:36:35 hm Sep 24 23:37:10 (actually, it was "almost equal with some very narrow band of low signal between the coverages") Sep 24 23:37:38 dumb phone tried to switch cell each time it got that low signal Sep 24 23:38:17 When I drive to city, I can start downloading a file when at home (edge), drive into gprs-only, back into edge, into 3g, into hspdpa (not +), and reverse order on the way home, without the download breaking Sep 24 23:38:39 yes, that usually works Sep 24 23:39:00 except when the phone tries to switch net every 5 packets Sep 24 23:39:07 then TCP throttles connection to hell Sep 24 23:39:24 ;p Sep 24 23:39:27 Kind of sad having a device this good and just being on EDGE. Sep 24 23:39:58 web browsing suffers a bit Sep 24 23:40:08 hint for Nokia: use TCP Veno policy Sep 24 23:40:16 it's in mainline kernel Sep 24 23:40:51 net.ipv4.tcp_congestion_control = veno Sep 24 23:40:53 this sysctl. Sep 24 23:41:37 reno and cubic available on n810 Sep 24 23:41:49 doesnt the sending side need this too.. Sep 24 23:41:53 no. Sep 24 23:42:13 I mean, for maximum gain, why not. Sep 24 23:42:42 what the fuck... something used 30+MB in the last two hours since I reset the data counters. Sep 24 23:42:50 :P Sep 24 23:42:50 And I've been on wifi almost the entire time. Sep 24 23:43:06 You need a spike meter! :/ Sep 24 23:43:20 Even just ntop would be nice. Sep 24 23:43:24 yeah Sep 24 23:43:46 I've made somethign that goes 'bing' for my 3G connection - when it's moved a me Sep 24 23:43:47 g Sep 24 23:44:12 i personally won't use the n900 in any non-flat plan. Sep 24 23:44:31 http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/summary?doi=10.1.1.2.1469 Sep 24 23:44:41 that's the Veno paper Sep 24 23:44:47 'Flat' plans here all have fair uses Sep 24 23:44:49 there have been some extra enhancements to Veno too Sep 24 23:44:54 zerojay: you leave it connected all the time? Sep 24 23:44:57 A salient feature of Veno is that it modifies only the sender-side protocol of Reno without changing the receiver-side protocol stack. Sep 24 23:45:24 I guess that's the idea mind you Sep 24 23:45:55 SpeedEvil: agreed. which is why that means "no cell data" for me. Sep 24 23:46:20 javispedro: yes, so you gain regardless of the ISP. Sep 24 23:46:44 (actually, I then steal the bandwidth from my alma mater ;) ) Sep 24 23:46:49 it will be best if your ISP uses a mobile-friendly congestion protocol as well Sep 24 23:48:00 i'm not used to tcp parlance. "sender" as in sender (who emits data) or "sender" as in host? Sep 24 23:48:26 sender is the side that sends packets. ;p Sep 24 23:48:40 which means, the one who uploads. Sep 24 23:48:52 still, TCP is session-based, so you gain regardless Sep 24 23:49:04 since two-way communication is always necessary Sep 24 23:49:12 at least for ACKs Sep 24 23:49:22 so you gain "few". Sep 24 23:50:19 it's the remote host the one who would have to enable Veno Sep 24 23:50:35 you gain still, and that is good Sep 24 23:50:42 esp. you gain when actually uploading data Sep 24 23:50:49 damn Sep 24 23:51:00 * SpeedEvil tries to work out when he tried to implement this. Sep 24 23:51:09 1992? Sep 24 23:51:13 Ah, more good fun http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=333270#post333270 Sep 24 23:51:14 as a bonus, your TCP flow will compete favorably with other TCP flows in the network Sep 24 23:51:20 I LOVE that thread. :D Sep 24 23:51:29 SpeedEvil: implement what? :) Sep 24 23:51:36 AStorm: your _upload_ flow. Sep 24 23:51:42 My connection to my favourite mud sucked in 1992. It had lots of packet loss - 25% or so Sep 24 23:52:05 I simply hacked in a linear backoff not exponential Sep 24 23:52:24 javispedro: which means your download too Sep 24 23:52:27 Or linear after 3s - I forgot. Sep 24 23:52:33 if your upload flow is dead, you can't send ACKS Sep 24 23:52:34 *ACKs Sep 24 23:52:39 so the server will retransmit Sep 24 23:52:58 what use is a 100% fine upload flow in such a congested network? Sep 24 23:53:03 ... Sep 24 23:53:03 download will suck either way Sep 24 23:53:10 there's suck and suck Sep 24 23:53:11 it's not congestion Sep 24 23:53:16 it's packet loss due to bit errors Sep 24 23:53:20 Different things. Sep 24 23:53:25 or other errors, yes Sep 24 23:53:27 but same as they affect both upload and download. Sep 24 23:53:34 not same Sep 24 23:53:35 (in this concrete example) Sep 24 23:53:44 Reno will cut your upload rate on error Sep 24 23:53:53 on upload error. Sep 24 23:53:53 so the ACKs won't reach the target in time Sep 24 23:53:58 so your download speed drops Sep 24 23:53:58 k Sep 24 23:54:04 Packet loss of >30% or so and you're guaranteed exponential backoff to silly proportions some of the time Sep 24 23:54:20 SpeedEvil: even a burst of total packet loss Sep 24 23:54:22 and I agree with that. Sep 24 23:54:38 and that tends to happen on cell nets Sep 24 23:55:21 but I don't see why enabling Veno on a host will magically help its download speeds in an apreciable way Sep 24 23:55:52 so yes. acks will now flow. but there's still 30% packet loss. the receive window will suck., Sep 24 23:56:20 yes, if you use Reno Sep 24 23:56:27 if you use Veno, it shouldn't scale the window down Sep 24 23:56:30 if the other end uses Reno. Sep 24 23:56:45 true, their windows will scale down Sep 24 23:56:58 it's still a major improvement Sep 24 23:57:08 well, I don't have benchmarks to rebate that :) Sep 24 23:57:14 since as your ACK reaches the destination, their windows will quickly scale up Sep 24 23:57:23 this paper does have benchmarks. Sep 24 23:57:30 lardman|home: When I'm home, I leave it connected all the time to my home wifi. When I'm out, I leave it connected to my cellular data. That doesn't mean I wanted some 30MB download to happen though. Sep 24 23:57:45 no, fair enough Sep 24 23:58:08 C question, I would like to do something like this: if(data[0]=="9"){} Sep 24 23:58:14 it won't work, why not? Sep 24 23:58:25 AStorm: then again, we're talking about noise. ACK packets are small. Sep 24 23:58:34 (or should be :P) Sep 24 23:58:35 well presumably as the "9 is tucked away somewhere as a pointer to some data" Sep 24 23:58:37 lardman|home: what type is data[0]? Sep 24 23:58:43 char* Sep 24 23:58:48 it's a string Sep 24 23:58:50 data[0]? Sep 24 23:58:54 "9" Sep 24 23:58:58 maybe data is a string Sep 24 23:59:05 oh, well that's a char then Sep 24 23:59:05 otherwise, use strcmp Sep 24 23:59:17 then data[0] == '9' Sep 24 23:59:23 compare char to char :) Sep 24 23:59:24 ah, single quotes Sep 24 23:59:26 not char to string Sep 24 23:59:33 they are different? Sep 24 23:59:39 sure yeah (in C) Sep 24 23:59:40 obviously Sep 24 23:59:44 (char to int actually :P ) Sep 24 23:59:55 yeah, ok, was wondering if it was a quote thing Sep 24 23:59:56 thanks Sep 25 00:00:11 javispedro: char to const char*. fair? Sep 25 00:00:17 ;p Sep 25 00:00:37 or rather, const char const * Sep 25 00:00:39 ;p Sep 25 00:00:54 AStorm: char to const char * ("9"), but char to int ('9') Sep 25 00:00:58 lardman|home: I recommend -Wall Sep 25 00:01:08 javispedro: no, '9' is char. Sep 25 00:01:13 9 is int. Sep 25 00:01:20 ok Sep 25 00:01:21 not in C. Sep 25 00:01:26 (int)'9' is int. Sep 25 00:01:31 anyway, time for bed, cheers for the help Sep 25 00:01:33 char is convertible to int. Sep 25 00:01:41 I'll leave you all to "discuss" :) Sep 25 00:01:43 night Sep 25 00:01:49 Does ntop allow you to see bandwidth use by app? Sep 25 00:02:08 zerojay: not sure, I'd have to install it again on the new machine Sep 25 00:02:15 but I think it is possible Sep 25 00:02:17 AStorm: 'c' is int according to the spec Sep 25 00:02:30 javispedro: orly? Sep 25 00:02:32 sizeof('c') = 4. Sep 25 00:02:45 funky Sep 25 00:02:54 ;) Sep 25 00:03:02 so I can do like, memcpy(charvar, intvar, sizeof(int)) Sep 25 00:03:09 total evil Sep 25 00:03:17 char is char. it's just that '' constntats are ints. Sep 25 00:03:28 memcpy(&charvar, &intvar, sizeof(int)) Sep 25 00:03:33 hmmmh Sep 25 00:03:40 funny. Sep 25 00:03:53 so that you can write wide characters? Sep 25 00:03:58 palmos used to abuse them Sep 25 00:03:59 no, that would be '9'L Sep 25 00:04:12 'appl' was the magic 32 bit code for application db type Sep 25 00:04:19 hahaha Sep 25 00:04:30 gcc will warn about this Sep 25 00:04:36 I'll better check the spec Sep 25 00:04:44 maybe this has been standarized in C99 or something Sep 25 00:04:47 every time I see 'appl' I think of .app bundles from NeXT and OS X Sep 25 00:04:53 AStorm: actually, it's prrety old. Sep 25 00:05:02 but is it really standard? Sep 25 00:05:03 I don't remember right now what C++ did Sep 25 00:05:46 I think so. Sep 25 00:06:16 hehe Sep 25 00:06:23 some language "feature" Sep 25 00:06:46 C++89 differs there Sep 25 00:07:00 C++98 even ;p Sep 25 00:07:22 C++ "features" heh Sep 25 00:08:10 wow it's true Sep 25 00:08:14 well, it's logical that a character constant is of the same size as character variable Sep 25 00:08:15 they diverge on that point. Sep 25 00:08:27 sizeof('a') is 1 in g++ Sep 25 00:09:13 i see that g++ emits a warning upon 'appl' but then emits an int rvalue either way. Sep 25 00:09:21 yes. Sep 25 00:09:29 GNU extension. Sep 25 00:09:42 I wonder if C++0x changed this behavior Sep 25 00:10:56 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C%2B%2B0x#New_string_literals Sep 25 00:10:59 yes, it did Sep 25 00:12:44 hmm, not entirely sure Sep 25 00:13:11 those are null terminated Sep 25 00:13:16 the new ones might be u'\uxxxx' U'\Uxxxxxxxx' Sep 25 00:13:37 or w/o the u, wiki is not clear about that Sep 25 00:13:41 c++0x is sick Sep 25 00:14:20 "For the purpose of enhancing support for Unicode in C++ compilers, the definition of the type char has been modified to be both at least the size necessary to store an eight-bit coding of UTF-8 and large enough to contain any member of the compiler's basic execution character set." Sep 25 00:14:29 no, it's great. not sick at all. Sep 25 00:14:52 it's great. but too big. Sep 25 00:15:02 heh, compare with, say, Java. Sep 25 00:15:06 see what is big. Sep 25 00:15:09 ;p Sep 25 00:15:10 Java actually has few features. Sep 25 00:15:24 from a language point of view. Sep 25 00:15:28 fewer, not few. and far less powerful features. Sep 25 00:15:39 but I see that as a good thing. Sep 25 00:15:49 I am trying to install maemo on fedora 10. I completed the scratchbox installation Sep 25 00:16:06 I am getting the error close all scratchbox sessions Sep 25 00:16:17 while trying to install the SDK Sep 25 00:16:22 hmmh Sep 25 00:16:35 javispedro: really, not many more features. Sep 25 00:16:36 and also that the user assigned to maemo is not a sudoers file Sep 25 00:16:51 tush726: blame fedora scratchbox package maybe? Sep 25 00:17:11 yes, it's tricky to build that environment from scratch (pun intended) Sep 25 00:17:31 i installed scratchbox from the script provided on the website Sep 25 00:18:51 hmmh, that should've worked Sep 25 00:19:21 could you pastebin the error message? Sep 25 00:19:39 javispedro: some features are, yes, meh and rarely used Sep 25 00:19:46 but many are extremely good Sep 25 00:20:03 but I fear the day when someone uses one of the darker features. Sep 25 00:20:20 much like I'd fear a perl guru ;) Sep 25 00:20:48 (stereotype, yes I know. sorry :P ) Sep 25 00:21:10 javispedro: like what darker features? Sep 25 00:21:27 I fear people who say they're writing C++, but don't really know templates Sep 25 00:21:46 (including funny features like SFINAE) Sep 25 00:22:06 http://pastebin.com/d4e1c6025 Sep 25 00:22:19 I fear people abusing templates. In fact, from what I read, C++0x plans to fix that somehow with constexprs and such. Sep 25 00:22:56 abusing? ;> Sep 25 00:23:25 yes, at times templates have been "abused" to implement various language extensions Sep 25 00:23:31 it's not really abuse if done well Sep 25 00:23:51 what is needed is better error reporting when they're in use Sep 25 00:25:02 anything i could do ? Sep 25 00:25:15 sometimes I just enjoy the verboseness of java .... :) Sep 25 00:26:30 verboseness and piling hacks for missing generic programming Sep 25 00:27:08 or rather ILike IExtra INterface IMixins IN IJava ISix Sep 25 00:27:14 ;P Sep 25 00:27:28 that would be C# Sep 25 00:27:43 that is Java 6 as well, unless they did it wrong Sep 25 00:27:51 let me check Sep 25 00:28:02 I got rusty on Java recent features Sep 25 00:29:19 any help? http://pastebin.com/d4e1c6025 only two error messages Sep 25 00:33:15 javispedro: ah, that was Java 5 feature :) Sep 25 00:33:58 and C# version of generics is more powerful Sep 25 00:34:11 I guess you mean annotations? Sep 25 00:34:17 (by mixins, I say) Sep 25 00:34:28 either way java never introduced the I prefix in their guidelines iirc. Sep 25 00:35:05 SDK installation output till wherever i reached http://pastebin.com/d2281fc0c Sep 25 00:35:59 * javispedro wonders if that script every worked in fedora, seeing it calls dpkg --compare-versions Sep 25 00:36:25 s/every/ever Sep 25 00:36:28 javispedro: no, generics. It means an object that can work as x different others. Sep 25 00:36:38 w/o inheritance. Sep 25 00:36:56 in C++ (not C++0x), this is fairly tricky to do Sep 25 00:36:59 (" ILike IExtra INterface IMixins IN IJava ISix") Sep 25 00:37:30 class GenericAppliance : not derived from List but works as one. Sep 25 00:37:41 is that even possible in Java now? ;p Sep 25 00:37:46 I bet not. Sep 25 00:37:46 aaaa Sep 25 00:37:50 you mean Interfaces! Sep 25 00:37:53 has anyone tried a fedora installation for the SDK? Sep 25 00:37:57 javispedro: not exactly Sep 25 00:38:06 I mean classes that implement many interfaces at once Sep 25 00:38:08 generics is that List stuff in java parlance Sep 25 00:38:14 in other words, mixins Sep 25 00:38:47 implementing multiple interfaces has been since the first days I think Sep 25 00:38:52 yes, and it doesn't interact with interfaces, so I can't have a class looking like a generic List Sep 25 00:40:31 so the usual workaround is not using generics there, but generics based on interfaces Sep 25 00:41:10 like, IList foo = bar Sep 25 00:41:21 that is not possible. Sep 25 00:41:42 we have to thank type erasure for that. Sep 25 00:41:50 templates? Sep 25 00:41:52 i don't follow yo Sep 25 00:42:06 you say I can't make class A implement List ? Sep 25 00:42:21 iirc I can. Sep 25 00:42:21 yes, you can't. Sep 25 00:42:28 since List will be erased to List Sep 25 00:42:40 yes. and? Sep 25 00:42:47 that will happen at code generation time. Sep 25 00:42:51 so I can do IList blah = yourlist (which is List) Sep 25 00:43:06 the compiler won't let you. Sep 25 00:43:08 generics don't interact well with interfaces Sep 25 00:43:18 unless you're in some weird compatibility mode. Sep 25 00:43:43 it won't let me implement List, List, List Sep 25 00:43:59 :) Sep 25 00:44:02 check it. Sep 25 00:44:26 i'm not sure about that either. Sep 25 00:45:14 hmm. ok, right, bug of Java 5. Fixed in Java 6. Sep 25 00:45:17 ;p Sep 25 00:45:22 * AStorm feels ashamed. Sep 25 00:45:47 well, if it was a bug, then you are partially right ;) Sep 25 00:46:41 let's call it a misfeature Sep 25 00:50:07 actually Sep 25 00:50:12 do you know the bug#? Sep 25 00:50:32 because it seems you're right Sep 25 00:50:45 AStorm^^ Sep 25 00:51:38 anyone knows where i can find a good tutorial on how to use libtools/autoconf/automake on sb?? Sep 25 00:51:53 but either way I don't see what type erasure has to do with that. in fact, to get over that absurd limitation I could just create an extra class C extending B. heh. I guess those are the "hacks" you were talking about. Sep 25 00:53:32 lol this exact "hack" is banned in the java spec. Sep 25 00:54:25 except creating a derivation tree is incompatible with mixins Sep 25 00:54:38 :) Sep 25 00:55:14 since then you don't have a mixin anymore, you have a class that is derived from all the classes implementing interfaces. Sep 25 00:55:23 thus the hack lol Sep 25 00:55:24 either hundred of empty classes Sep 25 00:55:48 (well, I'm exaggerating) Sep 25 00:56:23 to create a small inheritance tree Sep 25 00:56:33 but that won't work either I guess. Sep 25 00:56:35 :) Sep 25 00:56:40 so, anyway. Sep 25 00:56:48 that limitation has been lifted I think. Sep 25 00:57:25 i tried to compile a test case in 1.6 source mode and it failed, so I don't know. Sep 25 00:57:51 anyone knows where i can find a good tutorial on how to use libtools/autoconf/automake on sb?? Sep 25 00:58:49 uhoh Sep 25 00:58:58 there are no good tutorials on any of those in normal usage Sep 25 00:59:06 and you expect us to find one for sbox Sep 25 00:59:08 ;p Sep 25 00:59:19 sbox shouldn't be any diferent. Sep 25 00:59:29 that was what I wanted to add ;) Sep 25 00:59:54 http://entrian.com/goto/ - yes, Python is powerful ;p Sep 25 00:59:56 ... Sep 25 01:00:27 somehow my conf linked ar as the compiler rather than gcc :( Sep 25 01:00:33 anyone can help? Sep 25 01:01:02 whaaaat? Sep 25 01:01:15 huh? Sep 25 01:01:25 spencer_: check if your CC var is set correctly Sep 25 01:02:16 likely is not, and so you need to fix it Sep 25 01:02:31 scratchbox configuration menu should do it for you Sep 25 01:02:40 (just pick another arch/compiler) Sep 25 01:02:57 (e.g. switch between x86 and arm code compilation) Sep 25 01:04:23 env does not have CC.. i guess that's why Sep 25 01:04:39 no, then the default of cc should be used Sep 25 01:04:43 or gcc Sep 25 01:04:51 depending on autotools version Sep 25 01:05:08 hmm af-sb-init.sh is missing in my SDK installation even though maemo-sdk-dev is installed :( Sep 25 01:05:13 libtool has hardcoded compiler config files as well, so it shouldn't try to use ar as a compiler Sep 25 01:05:19 b-man16: heh. Sep 25 01:05:30 I think I dealt with this before too Sep 25 01:05:36 but I don't remember how I fixed it Sep 25 01:05:37 b-man16: nokia-binaries? Sep 25 01:05:47 that's installed Sep 25 01:06:00 in your target? Sep 25 01:06:07 yup Sep 25 01:06:36 sure? :) nokia-binaries should pull that package Sep 25 01:12:22 Hello some one can tell me hoy can i fix this , whaen I try login to /scratchbox/login Sep 25 01:12:32 bash: /scratchbox/login: Permiso denegado Sep 25 01:13:49 Permission Denied Sep 25 01:14:03 did you add yourself as a sbox user? Sep 25 01:14:13 then logged out and back in so you're in the sbox group Sep 25 01:14:26 i am sure abouth that , but hoy can I confirm? Sep 25 01:14:58 mau_mex: "groups" command should print "sbox" somewhere. Sep 25 01:17:56 :s there is not sbox on /etc/group , i check it 5 minutes agoy before reboot and i`m sure i saw it... Sep 25 01:18:15 lol Sep 25 01:18:18 "Moblin Garage" Sep 25 01:22:21 http://garage.moblin.org/ Sep 25 01:22:25 heh. Sep 25 01:22:44 actually, it resembles maemo.org/downloads more than garage. Sep 25 01:27:07 why doesn't the package manager in maemo look like that :o Sep 25 01:33:23 Firebird: have you seen the Maemo 5 one? Sep 25 01:33:44 looks the same as the maemo4 one last I looked Sep 25 02:26:51 Fonera 2.0N advertises 3G support :O Sep 25 02:29:20 oh, via USB... Sep 25 02:29:25 and it's bulky looking **** ENDING LOGGING AT Fri Sep 25 02:59:58 2009