**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Thu Nov 19 02:59:57 2009 Nov 19 03:00:04 It's a browser that's pretending to be an OS Nov 19 03:00:06 It'll be nothing of the sort. Nov 19 03:02:50 We'll see soon enough. After all, Windows is a waste of space pretending to be an OS, and that's not stopped people from buying it. Nov 19 03:03:52 microsoft should pull a google and make the next version of windows just IE9 Nov 19 03:03:57 I mean, er... Nov 19 03:04:01 lol Nov 19 03:04:19 GiantTalkingCow: if ChromeOS is anything like I expect, it won't. It'll just be Android for PCs. Nov 19 03:05:02 Also, ubuntu is great if you don't like futzing around with configs and stuff. Nov 19 03:05:02 microlith: For a lot of people, that'll be great. I wouldn't mind running something like that on a netbook. Nov 19 03:05:57 meh Nov 19 03:05:57 Ubuntu is Linux done wrong, imo. Not because I'm against simplification at all, I just think that re-inventing the wheel and then taking years to get it right isn't a good direction for a desktop distro. Nov 19 03:06:02 microlith: ubuntu is great when it works, and sucky when it doesnt Nov 19 03:06:06 microlith, for the overwhelmingly vast majority of people that's great. Nov 19 03:06:12 In fact, that's the only optio.n Nov 19 03:06:23 microlith, it'll be less than Android. At least Android has applications. Nov 19 03:06:28 I wouldn't care to use it for the same reason that I'm after Maemo, that it particularly it's not Java Nov 19 03:06:58 GiantTalkingCow: what else was doing what ubuntu does years ago? Nov 19 03:07:25 pclinuxos, mandriva, suse? Nov 19 03:07:26 Years ago? Corel Linux. Like a decade ago. Nov 19 03:07:43 It's still one of the most usable Linux distros I've ever tried. Nov 19 03:09:20 hmm Nov 19 03:09:29 I spent most of my time battling redhat and gentoo Nov 19 03:11:22 Funny as it sounds, I think that Linux for the desktop was in some ways better off years ago, due to the GUIs being slightly more sensible. Now we have stuff like the upcoming Gnome-Shell. Nov 19 03:11:25 * GiantTalkingCow shudders. Nov 19 03:15:30 maemo, go home Nov 19 03:15:42 the internet is over Nov 19 03:15:53 secret meeting in south korea Nov 19 03:15:57 you beat the end boss? Nov 19 03:16:03 deep packet inspection for copyright holders Nov 19 03:16:13 The Man has won Nov 19 03:16:24 we failed Nov 19 03:25:50 i think nokia will manage to mess it up... they seem to be good cop/bad cop with the community at times Nov 19 03:26:21 they're not winning fans with the release of the N900 :> Nov 19 03:26:38 yet why oh why can't we distance ourselves from them? they're like an abusive husband, and we keep coming back for more Nov 19 03:26:41 (wait what) Nov 19 03:26:42 they had many fans when they were about to release but ppl are getting a bit pissed now... Nov 19 03:27:13 realitygaps: I placed my order on sept. 3rd, and between the headset incompatibility and the no-info it's quite annoying Nov 19 03:27:20 but no-one else is making even relatively open hackable systems that i would look at Nov 19 03:27:20 (2 weeks, people overreact too much) Nov 19 03:27:24 that said, I'm not gonna stress over it Nov 19 03:27:31 realitygaps: very true Nov 19 03:28:13 its worth the wait imho, i love this n900 its what ive been waiting for since the psions and zauruses Nov 19 03:28:27 realitygaps, a few hundreds of idiots with too much free time are getting "pissed". Nov 19 03:28:51 yes Nov 19 03:28:55 GeneralAntilles: i think they missed the critical mass point where everyone was talking about the n900 tho Nov 19 03:28:55 In the large scale of things it's pretty meaningless. Nov 19 03:29:23 also a bit lame that testing roms arent being pushed to the ppl who will properly test them but kept internal Nov 19 03:29:24 Meh, it wont matter much in the large scale. Nov 19 03:29:42 realitygaps, that's not a trivial thing to do. Nov 19 03:30:02 GeneralAntilles: probably wont matter that much. but i still dont understand why thats not so trivial Nov 19 03:30:14 its not like we are noobs or anything Nov 19 03:30:20 realitygaps, because there's 3rd-party and proprietary software involved. Nov 19 03:30:34 Shipping uncertified Flash to consumers isn't an easy thing to do. Nov 19 03:30:42 one day, when humanity is long gone, aliens will come to earth, find google data centers, read about our civilization and thing "man, nokia sure pissed off people by delaying this thing for a couple weeks" Nov 19 03:30:54 thats true didnt think about the flash Nov 19 03:31:06 Nokia's also got their own first-party stuff. Nov 19 03:31:14 but week 46 release has flash 10? Nov 19 03:31:21 Erm? Nov 19 03:31:30 Flash 10 was announced for next year. Nov 19 03:31:39 Each release has to be certified. Nov 19 03:31:40 exactly, but some ppl have the week 46 rom already Nov 19 03:32:03 People with NDA's. :) Nov 19 03:32:16 Or people who know people violating NDAs. Nov 19 03:32:27 ah ok, thx for pointing that out Nov 19 03:32:34 i avoid nda's like the plague Nov 19 03:32:50 Then you wont be testing any pre-release firmware for the time being. ;) Nov 19 03:33:05 i guess not. but i never saw a sane NDA :) Nov 19 03:33:22 and surely NDA would prohibit posting screenshots like some ppl have done Nov 19 03:33:46 i just get this feeling sometimes that nokia is playing us all :) Nov 19 03:34:07 because they know we are all hooked already Nov 19 03:34:19 at the same time they do cool stuff like the loaners Nov 19 03:34:38 good cop/bad cop feeling...... Nov 19 03:34:47 but they seem to have their reasons Nov 19 03:34:54 as you've pointed out Nov 19 03:37:26 Er yeah Nov 19 03:37:36 They aren't playing us Nov 19 03:37:50 There are just business realities that tend to escape the average open source advocate. :) Nov 19 03:38:36 its true, once you are deep in the FOSS world you lose sight of business realities and fixate on the freedom i guess Nov 19 03:39:09 and the freedom isn't something big companies with boards, shareholders and lots of employees can just dive right into. Nov 19 03:39:53 very true Nov 19 03:40:20 honestly they do a better job than sharp did with the zaurus line IMHO, esp. with community Nov 19 03:40:52 Nokia blows Sharp out of the water. Nov 19 03:41:06 Nokia's behavior is completely unprecedented in this industry. Nov 19 03:41:21 and there's a lot to be said for rewarding behavior you agree with. Nov 19 03:41:33 definitely, but in the end it must make sense for them as a business opportunity or they wouldnt be doing it right? Nov 19 03:41:49 Of course Nov 19 03:41:53 and what's wrong with that? Nov 19 03:41:59 nothing :) Nov 19 03:42:06 Everybody ends up winning. Nov 19 03:42:10 i sure hope so Nov 19 03:42:32 i know that theyve made the devices we were dreaming of, so im on their side for the forseeable future Nov 19 03:43:02 i wouldnt have thought id have such an open phone in my pocket so soon Nov 19 03:43:29 so kudos to nokia on that for sure Nov 19 03:43:42 i hope its the gamechanger we imagine it to be Nov 19 03:44:37 and thanks GA for the reality check :) as my nick shows sometimes i have gaps in that.... Nov 19 03:45:40 noooo. n900 out of stock D: damn hype Nov 19 03:46:06 is anyone working on fosdem proposals btw, there are only a few days left.... Nov 19 03:46:44 Think there was a thread on maemo-developers. Nov 19 03:47:55 think that was for foss.in - bangalore Nov 19 04:26:43 yaaay Nov 19 04:30:25 Bounce Evolution is proprietary, right? Nov 19 04:30:27 my n900 is on the way! Nov 19 04:30:37 mza: yay! Nov 19 04:30:47 wow! someone ported xeyes Nov 19 04:30:52 * mza twirls finger Nov 19 04:31:15 Isn't xeyes like the hello world of X applications? Nov 19 04:31:19 my n810 is the only "gadget" ive ever gotten that ive used every day since ive gotten it Nov 19 04:31:54 mza: impressive ;) Nov 19 04:31:58 all i want is caldav Nov 19 04:32:04 :( Nov 19 04:32:17 does evo on the desktop do it ? Nov 19 04:32:21 openvpn has been ported right? Nov 19 04:32:25 i dunno:( Nov 19 04:33:32 does it support google calendars? Nov 19 04:33:38 cause that's caldav Nov 19 04:37:07 i dont see openvpn Nov 19 04:37:11 on maemo.org Nov 19 04:37:52 is there somewhere i can browse the apt repo? Nov 19 04:37:55 http://maemo.org/downloads/product/OS2008/openvpn/ Nov 19 04:38:10 (I assume it will work with minimal porting with the N900, but dunno) Nov 19 04:38:28 it's in extras-devel Nov 19 04:38:39 http://maemo.org/packages/view/openvpn/ Nov 19 04:39:15 yea, that's what i mean, i see it for OS2008 Nov 19 04:39:20 and use it on the n810 Nov 19 04:39:30 im really curious about the mail client Nov 19 04:41:01 dmj726, thx, that's cool Nov 19 04:41:13 now we just need an applet and a user/passwd save;) Nov 19 04:41:59 avahi! nice Nov 19 04:42:43 what we really need is something like http://blog.robinward.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/03/bildschirmfoto-ssh-tunnel-manager.png Nov 19 04:42:53 yes yes (is there one already?) Nov 19 04:43:16 i wish! Nov 19 04:43:54 openvpn is better cause you can push routes Nov 19 04:53:52 i run openvpn at system level not user level :/ Nov 19 04:54:07 :\ Nov 19 05:20:35 mza: openvpn /used/ to work before I upgraded the firmware, but now the package can't seem to find the libzlo2-2 package it needs Nov 19 05:26:35 re Nov 19 06:10:49 * timeless_mbp sighs Nov 19 06:11:09 would someone please remind me to mention http://www.smsmac.com/help/discover/about-sms/gsm7bit/ to the next finn who talks to me about which stupid character set SMSs use? Nov 19 06:12:30 I'm pretty sure you can write sms in chinese or russian too Nov 19 06:13:36 <`0660_> what do the finns tell you about the charsets? :) Nov 19 06:13:56 <`0660_> aol, that article does mention unicode sms messages Nov 19 06:14:19 aol: not using 160 chars Nov 19 06:14:24 Man Spoke Only Klingon to His Son for Three Years Nov 19 06:14:34 all righty :) Nov 19 06:14:37 the key is that :a is one of the privileged single 7bit chars Nov 19 06:14:37 Hm. Nov 19 06:15:19 I guess finns originally thought only finns would be using this SMS thing :) Nov 19 06:16:20 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SMS Nov 19 06:16:39 a finn supposedly sent the first mobile originated sms... Nov 19 06:16:46 but it wasn't designed by finns at all Nov 19 06:16:56 sounds like it was germans/frenchmen Nov 19 06:17:46 I'm in the impression that the modern phones have always had the 140 char limit ... Nov 19 06:18:00 7bit is supposed to have 160char limit Nov 19 06:18:11 so maybe it has been obsoleted quite early Nov 19 06:18:14 160 was the final limit :) Nov 19 06:21:28 but really there are a whole bunch of limits, 70, 140, 160, 67, 133, 153 Nov 19 06:22:08 how about 6bit Nov 19 06:23:01 * timeless_mbp sighs Nov 19 06:23:04 stupid standards Nov 19 06:23:11 nowhere does it mention anything about RTL Nov 19 06:23:19 so i guess it's shoehorned in Nov 19 06:23:35 probably under the "surprise me" category Nov 19 06:24:04 maybe it's like IRC RTL Nov 19 06:24:32 if the character set is flagged RTL, the text is considered RTL Nov 19 06:24:33 :p Nov 19 06:24:57 so Arabic characters cause the line to go RTL Nov 19 06:28:15 ok it's the 19th nov Nov 19 06:28:28 was told when i called on the 9th that they'll start shipping today.. Nov 19 06:28:36 let's see what'll happen Nov 19 06:28:41 luke-jr: there's no character set flagging in irc Nov 19 06:28:43 that's a myth Nov 19 06:29:32 timeless_mbp: the flagging is in the OS or font or something Nov 19 06:29:39 somewhere the OS knows Arabic is RTL Nov 19 06:30:49 luke-jr: see.... this would almost be ok if the lines in question were pure Arabic Nov 19 06:31:01 and the 'os' for the most part doesn't care at all Nov 19 06:31:24 in fact, there really isn't much of an 'os' her Nov 19 06:31:28 s/her/here/ Nov 19 06:31:28 timeless_mbp meant: in fact, theree really isn't much of an 'os' her Nov 19 06:31:47 there's basically shaping, glyph lookup/rendering, and someone doing display Nov 19 06:32:08 pretty much all of this is done more or less at the application level Nov 19 06:32:30 but things aren't remotely interesting until one mixes an RTL language with an LTR language Nov 19 06:32:42 until then it falls under the category of "who cares" Nov 19 06:32:55 once you mix them, it falls under the category of "surprise me, sounds exciting" Nov 19 06:35:35 XD Nov 19 06:35:36 http://www.ownskin.com/flash_lite_slide_detail?t=JVYSZXIU Nov 19 06:35:40 this is just so wrong Nov 19 06:47:07 "What's your job" thread is probably the most informative thread on tmo for the last 2 months... Nov 19 06:47:11 hello, konttori Nov 19 06:50:08 could it be spiced up by "I'm canceling my preorder" and "but does it have digital compass" messages? Nov 19 06:50:41 kirma: DON'T. Nov 19 06:50:44 =) Nov 19 06:50:50 I don't that's sure :) Nov 19 06:51:09 There are unusually few attempts to hijack it Nov 19 06:51:46 Probably does not contain any proper keywords Nov 19 06:52:33 Morning! Nov 19 06:53:58 moin Nov 19 06:54:20 Moorning, Myrtti, tekojo Nov 19 06:55:09 ♥ Nov 19 06:56:37 the thread about what's your job is fun, but I'm too boring to write anything to it Nov 19 06:56:43 allo Nov 19 06:56:51 Myrtti, what do you do? Nov 19 06:57:01 Myrtti: cat herder? =) Nov 19 06:57:10 luke-jr: i've heard about it, right. But what option is left for an ordinary user? Stock maemo kernel just doesn't work properly with an external card-reader... and too old anyway. Nov 19 06:57:16 RST38h, that was an awesome commercial :D Nov 19 06:57:46 * RST38h pulled that one out of his brain, did not see any commercials Nov 19 06:57:53 luke-jr: and btw do you probably know about nokia plans wrt properly mainlining n900 support? Nov 19 06:57:58 johnx: software developer for a Finnish company, doing documentation infrastructure atm. Nov 19 06:57:58 you're missing out. let me find it Nov 19 06:58:09 PaulFertser: partial Nov 19 06:58:41 Myrtti, ha! i used to be an english teacher :P nothing to worry about in terms of boring Nov 19 06:59:02 hooray, no spam! Nov 19 06:59:06 RST38h, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pk7yqlTMvp8 Nov 19 07:01:00 anyone here with latest firmware (on n900) Nov 19 07:01:10 epa_, 42-11 here Nov 19 07:01:12 what's up? Nov 19 07:01:34 umm...is it just me or are there suddenly a lot of clueless threads basically saying "Make me an app" Nov 19 07:01:34 johnx: can you verify a 'bug' on calendar software for me? Nov 19 07:01:46 alright, what are the steps? Nov 19 07:01:57 dmj726, they come in waves Nov 19 07:02:14 epa_ what kind of bug? Nov 19 07:02:18 johnx: Oh. Shit. Nov 19 07:02:21 open calendar, in monthly view "brush" left it goes one month forward Nov 19 07:02:29 dmj726, just ask them for $10,000 now and another $10k on completion. tell 'em it's your special rate Nov 19 07:02:30 johnx: brush left it goes one month back Nov 19 07:02:34 johnx: select a week Nov 19 07:02:40 johnx: try same Nov 19 07:02:40 johnx: /me guessed "IBM" but missed Nov 19 07:02:43 ♥ Nov 19 07:02:43 I can understand the "Let's brainstorm a new community project" but the "I don't know programming, do this for me please." is just too much Nov 19 07:02:49 johnx: does it work to both directions for you Nov 19 07:03:01 not a bad idea Nov 19 07:03:03 dmj726: Let's brainstorm thing is no different, really Nov 19 07:03:10 johnx: I can only go back in weekly view. not forward at all. Nov 19 07:03:24 dmj726: Just worded a bit more politely Nov 19 07:03:37 epa_, i can go back and forth pretty easily Nov 19 07:03:39 johnx: ok incorrect. I can go forward, but not the same way I go in montly view Nov 19 07:03:47 johnx: ok. Nov 19 07:03:51 I got some nice UI ideas for the video editing thing that way Nov 19 07:04:06 epa_ explain more? what's not the same way? Nov 19 07:04:17 epa_, I can swipe up/left down/right in month view, but only left and right in week view Nov 19 07:04:22 tekojo: going back and forth in calendar Nov 19 07:04:49 here it works like johnx just said Nov 19 07:05:02 johnx: you do the movement so that the stylus is outside of the screen and then you just brush left or right? Nov 19 07:05:30 ah, not coming from outside the screen Nov 19 07:05:40 just swiping left and right with my finger/fingernail Nov 19 07:05:48 Ah, start with the stylus/finger in the screen area Nov 19 07:05:51 johnx: for me going forward in week view works only if I press screen and then wait a bit and then brush Nov 19 07:06:00 it only works from outside from left to right Nov 19 07:06:13 tekojo: not in monthly view Nov 19 07:06:19 in monthly it works both ways Nov 19 07:06:33 True :-D Nov 19 07:06:43 need to tell the people who did it Nov 19 07:06:44 tekojo: ok so 'anomaly' confirmed Nov 19 07:06:46 luke-jr: could you please elaborate a bit more? Nov 19 07:06:57 I do not know if it is a bug or a feature :) Nov 19 07:07:05 or which part is the bug :) Nov 19 07:07:08 Yes, please open a bug, or if you have, say the number and I'll confirm Nov 19 07:07:11 johnx: true Nov 19 07:07:12 PaulFertser: Nokia does not to my knowledge plan to release code for all the hardware in the N900 Nov 19 07:07:25 luke-jr: i'm talking about the kernel stuff. Nov 19 07:07:25 tekojo: I'll try to write it up Nov 19 07:07:34 not a feature in calender, only in browser and some other places Nov 19 07:07:47 PaulFertser: the kernel stuff is insufficient to boot Nov 19 07:07:58 or at least to use Nov 19 07:08:15 luke-jr: what exactly is missing? ofono guys promised support for the gsm part. Nov 19 07:08:27 PaulFertser: battery charging Nov 19 07:08:39 Maemo5 does not use ofono Nov 19 07:08:47 RST38h: not yet Nov 19 07:08:56 RST38h: but Marcel told me they plan to support it. Nov 19 07:09:06 wow, inside the maemo5 lifespan? Nov 19 07:09:14 luke-jr for what hardware are you trying to compile the kernel for? Nov 19 07:09:14 But, again, I do not see how releasing the WHOLE source code is so important Nov 19 07:09:22 Paul: In Maemo6, no doubt? Nov 19 07:09:45 tekojo: nothing Nov 19 07:09:48 RST38h, a lot of it's interesting for people with non-Nokia hardware Nov 19 07:10:03 oh, so you just want to read the code? Nov 19 07:10:06 luke-jr: i can't really understand how it can be too hard to trigger battery charging given kernel support is present. Even if it's userspace toggling something over gpiolib, it shouldn't be hard to strace the proprietary shit. Nov 19 07:10:29 PaulFertser, it's a userspace binary-only daemon Nov 19 07:10:32 johnx: some, yes, in order to have a working desktop Nov 19 07:10:33 AFAIK Nov 19 07:10:35 PaulFertser: IIRC, the hard part is the algorithms Nov 19 07:10:40 for battery stuff ask Stskeeps, he knows a lot of how the battery works Nov 19 07:11:12 RST38h: i do not know a thing about maemo* numbering scheme and i do not think distro matters much. Marcel told they'll support n900 gsm modem in several months after the public sale. Nov 19 07:11:13 RST38h, Nokia's modifications to the userspace part of the SGX OpenGLES2 lib Nov 19 07:11:49 johnx: Ah Nov 19 07:11:58 luke-jr: charging LiIon batteries in a sane enough way is not really hard, i do not understand what magic algorithms you're talking about. Nov 19 07:12:12 PaulFertser: me either, Nokia won't give us code Nov 19 07:12:22 Paul: iiiiinteresting... Nov 19 07:12:23 and my reverse engineering hasn't gotten that far yet Nov 19 07:13:10 RST38h: basically as far as i understood they plan to open ISI library that knows how to communicate with nokia modems over phonet etc. There's already some support in their repo. Nov 19 07:13:39 PaulFertser, that is very cool news :D Nov 19 07:14:02 johnx, tekojo: I made a report can you verify it is understandable. https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=6246 Nov 19 07:14:03 Bug 6246: Controlling calendar app is not consistent. Nov 19 07:14:27 luke-jr: come on, charging LiIon batteries _is_ simple. To charge you use CC-CV unless it reaches the nominal maximum voltage, monitoring the temperature during the process. Nov 19 07:14:59 RST38h: dont you ever sleep! :O Nov 19 07:15:08 epa_, makes sense to me. and it's definitely weird Nov 19 07:15:14 luke-jr: but to treat battery gently it's really not recommended to keep it charged over ~75% of capacity, especially if it's in a hot place (near the other components that heat it). Nov 19 07:15:29 PaulFertser: that means pretty much nothing to me :) Nov 19 07:15:43 luke-jr: after it reached the nominal voltage, the charging should be stopped until it degrades to ~75% again by normal usage discharge. Nov 19 07:15:47 johnx: makes me start to wonder that maybe nokia does not have consistent 'gesture/input' libray Nov 19 07:15:54 that it uses for the apps. Nov 19 07:16:02 epa_, or if it's just done on a one off basis... Nov 19 07:16:03 johnx: Nov 19 07:16:08 PaulFertser: So in english your saying what? Nov 19 07:16:21 luke-jr: and that's all. You need to avoid deep discharge. Basically all the rules, i can't understand what "algorithms" you're talking about. Nov 19 07:16:22 or maybe someone just forgot one gtk hook from there. Nov 19 07:16:31 Xisdibik: wrt ofono or battery charging? Nov 19 07:16:37 Xisdibik: I hibernate! Nov 19 07:16:38 battery charging Nov 19 07:16:46 RST38h: during what season? :p Nov 19 07:16:48 PaulFertser, it's basically just a matter of either 1) running nokia's binary bme daemon or 2) doing a little reverse engineering to understand the raw values that the kernel space driver is spitting out from entries in /sys Nov 19 07:16:53 like right now Nov 19 07:17:17 You certainly dont look suspended to disk Nov 19 07:17:29 most people do (1) when they're running non-maemo distros. some people complain about not having (2) available, but don't care enough to do the research Nov 19 07:17:45 Xisdibik: i can't understand why nokia's binary-shit battery charging daemon is a problem to get a free OS supported on nxxx because battery charging is not inherently complicated and there's strace to track how the binary daemon uses "open" kernel interfaces. Nov 19 07:18:09 RST38h, ? Nov 19 07:18:30 johnx:Nothing, just piece of a string from the buffer Nov 19 07:18:39 * RST38h switched to a different laptop Nov 19 07:19:42 so anyways, now you have an image to pop into your head whenever someone says "herding cats" :) Nov 19 07:19:57 Xisdibik: i also do not understand why the hell nokia doesn't release the code for that daemon since charging LiIon batteries is not a secret nowadays. Nov 19 07:20:24 PaulFertser, something about liability and having to jump through legal hoops inside the company Nov 19 07:20:42 johnx: Have you seen guys creating moving artwork out of sheep with christmas lights? Nov 19 07:20:56 RST38h, yeah, saw that one. not entirely sure how much of it is real Nov 19 07:21:47 PaulFertser: what nokia is really good at is power saving.. so there might be a lot of IP in it Nov 19 07:21:58 johnx: why can't they just "leak" enough info to easily write a replacement? Since when leaking some tiny piece of information that is interesting only for "those not-understanding a thing about business free software extremists" is hard? Nov 19 07:22:05 johnx: Hey I am not sure about the cats either =) Nov 19 07:22:14 Stskeeps: power saving is not about battery charging. Nov 19 07:22:40 RST38h, well of course WRT to the cats. It's just a mental aid for picturing :) Nov 19 07:22:42 ok, power management Nov 19 07:22:47 Stskeeps: you save power by turning off unused devices and tweaking frequencies/voltages. Shouldn't prevent anybody to charge his battery. Nov 19 07:23:08 The United States and China have agreed to step up discussions on cooperative space exploration Nov 19 07:23:21 Stskeeps: I think what PaulFertser is pointing out is that releasing basic usage docs shouldn't be a problem Nov 19 07:23:43 luke-jr: is my english _that_ bad it needs additional explanations? :( Nov 19 07:23:56 * RST38h kinda remembers that the battery charging code should be way deeper than the userspace, more on the boot loader level Nov 19 07:24:10 anyways, there is documentation on *reading* most of the battery related into, IIRC, just not *writing* to those interfaces Nov 19 07:24:31 Because the device should be able to charge even when it is off (really OFF not asleep) Nov 19 07:24:38 PaulFertser, probably assuming Stskeeps hasn't read the scrollback, and no your English is just fine :) Nov 19 07:24:51 either way, i doubt bme is getting opened anytime soon due to a lot of factors. Nov 19 07:25:04 RST38h, it can charge a bit when off, but you've noticed it always turns on when charging, right? Nov 19 07:25:08 PaulFertser: whats wrong with the daemon Nov 19 07:25:21 BTW, probably there is somebody can tell about the usb host support on n900, it'd be really nice to finally hear the details if it's really unsupported or just officially unsupported or requires an external power source. Nov 19 07:25:26 what -can- happen would be patches to make it work on later kernel if it doesnt work there Nov 19 07:25:29 johnx: yea, but never fully turns on Nov 19 07:25:37 PaulFertser: it's a hardware restriction AFAIK Nov 19 07:25:44 johnx: it basically runs something at the level of the boot loader Nov 19 07:25:44 PaulFertser: otg is out of the picture, but usb host is not sure Nov 19 07:25:46 RST38h, that "charging" screen is drawn by X11 Nov 19 07:25:49 Xisdibik: what's wrong with being a proprietary shit? Hm, i'm not sure i can really explain that in a few words now. Nov 19 07:25:55 johnx: thnx :) Nov 19 07:25:57 RST38h: it doesn't charge without Linux running and BME in userland Nov 19 07:26:12 luke-jr: it does charge a lil bit in nolo Nov 19 07:26:26 PaulFertser, did you already read the maemo-devel thread on it? I think that might be the most info anyone has right now Nov 19 07:26:32 Well, N810 definitely does not boot linux while charging Nov 19 07:26:32 Myrtti: more details are needed, the SoC can definetely act as a usb host. Nov 19 07:26:40 PaulFertser: how about we drop the ideology and stick to technical discussion? much more productive. Nov 19 07:26:45 RST38h: it definitely DOES Nov 19 07:27:01 johnx: that one talking about usb certification? Doesn't tell a bit to me. :( Nov 19 07:27:05 Mmm? I can keep it plugged in and it will charge Nov 19 07:27:13 RST38h: with Linux booted Nov 19 07:27:20 But I am not getting Linux until I hold the power button Nov 19 07:27:23 RST38h, you mean that "battery meter" screen? Nov 19 07:27:39 johnx: in fact it's just ridiculously stupid to trade usb host for fucking USB Logo on a box :-/ Nov 19 07:27:42 put some code early in rcS.d/ and watch it run if you don't believe me Nov 19 07:27:44 give me reports on whats broken in N8x0 BME. and no, not being open is not 'broken' in that discussion Nov 19 07:27:50 RST38h: you're not getting Maemo until you hold the power button. Linux is always running. Nov 19 07:27:52 johnx: yea, guess so. whatever it shows when I plug it into power when it is off Nov 19 07:27:57 ah Nov 19 07:28:06 * RST38h starts getting it, slowly Nov 19 07:28:08 Stskeeps: it is not trusted. Nov 19 07:28:34 RST38h, it doesn't start hildon-desktop, but it is drawing that silly battery meter with X11, unless I'm quite mistaken Nov 19 07:28:39 (known to happen :) ) Nov 19 07:28:46 johnx: Interesting =) Nov 19 07:28:51 johnx: the boot menu isn't X11 Nov 19 07:29:01 PaulFertser: so its just the opensourceness thats the issue, i thought that the daemon was broken or something because you were talking about 75% or some other thing Nov 19 07:29:02 luke-jr, duh Nov 19 07:29:14 * RST38h wonders what was Nokia's issue with the 3.5mm power plug Nov 19 07:29:33 Or EUs, for that matter Nov 19 07:29:40 oh right, forgot the battery charging meter thing was post-menu Nov 19 07:29:44 luke-jr: its like a dog that hasn't bitten you forever, no reason not to trust it. it works fine for its general purpos Nov 19 07:29:48 e Nov 19 07:30:03 Xisdibik: i was explaining how exactly to treat any LiIon battery to get the maximum lifespan. Talking about the algorithm, not the implementation. Nov 19 07:30:12 PaulFertser, from your point of view (and mine), but from the position of trying to market the phone I guess they went with the logo Nov 19 07:30:19 Stskeeps: does it? I'm pretty sure i've pointed out some pretty major bugs before Nov 19 07:30:26 like that stupid reboot cycle thing Nov 19 07:30:31 though I think they might not even be able to claim the interface was "USB" at all Nov 19 07:30:42 Morning, all Nov 19 07:30:50 GeneralAntilles: belated pong Nov 19 07:31:10 Xisdibik: and no, i don't care about "opensourceness", i care about the freedom, quite a difference here. And if the daemon is not free you'll have all kind of technical problems too, e.g. when you want to update your libc or there were plenty of troubles on OABI->EABI switch etc. Nov 19 07:31:44 PaulFertser: in that particular case i probably would be able to rebuild stuff. :P Nov 19 07:31:58 Stskeeps: unless you're out of a job and Nokia long out of business Nov 19 07:32:02 PaulFertser, well, we aren't having bme related problems, running ubuntu jaunty/karmic on the N8x0... Nov 19 07:32:29 luke-jr: reboot loop happens on diablo too. Nov 19 07:32:37 Stskeeps: and what if my new optimized ABI is proprietary and not for your eyes? Nov 19 07:32:52 Stskeeps: "happens on diablo" somehow makes it less of a bug? Nov 19 07:32:54 then you'd be a hypocrite Nov 19 07:33:05 reboot loop is silly use of watchdog, not anything else. how is that related to the battery? Nov 19 07:33:07 Stskeeps: nope, you're missing the point Nov 19 07:33:24 Stskeeps: do you mean you have access to the sources? Or know a magic way to do OABI->EABI conversion? Nov 19 07:33:24 no, i'm going back to my coffee Nov 19 07:33:25 johnx: BME forces teh system to reboot Nov 19 07:33:36 PaulFertser: Stskeeps is an employee Nov 19 07:33:40 luke-jr, no, we're pragmatists, and you're whining on IRC about something you haven't taken the time to reverse engineer Nov 19 07:33:48 * RST38h is tired of proprietary vs open-source agrument. Who the hell cares, except for luke-jr? Nov 19 07:33:53 johnx: I have taken LOTS of time. It's big. Nov 19 07:33:55 luke-jr: maemo.org distmaster, yeah Nov 19 07:34:07 It is a gadget. It should work. If Nokia maintains its firmware, Nokia fixes it. Nov 19 07:34:36 Stskeeps: free software is about being able to do what I want with my product. it does not mean the software goes to anyone who wants it. Nov 19 07:34:41 luke-jr: being a nokia employee doesn't mean an ability to do anything useful i'm afraid. I was amazed to hear that the ALSA developer from Intel can't find out anything about their windows drivers. Nov 19 07:34:42 All the talk about "what happens when Nokia out of business" is not worth a penny, as your device will be out of business long before Nokia Nov 19 07:34:48 PaulFertser, in this case it really isn't a problem actually. BME runs out of Nokia's initfs, and if you leave it alone you can pivot_root into whatever distro you want Nov 19 07:34:54 RST38h: Nokia *doesn't* fix it. Nov 19 07:35:10 luke-jr: But that is a completely different issue Nov 19 07:35:26 RST38h: not really Nov 19 07:35:35 To stay competitive, Nokia is supposed to start fixing it Nov 19 07:35:40 Nokia shouldn't have to fix it. Nov 19 07:35:43 They don't sell it anymore. Nov 19 07:35:44 Or face what it is facing now with S60 Nov 19 07:35:46 luke-jr, I highly doubt that most of the reboot-loops were caused by BME Nov 19 07:35:59 johnx: all of mine are. Nov 19 07:36:12 luke-jr, doesn't that just mean your battery is dead? Nov 19 07:36:15 minus the having-a-bootmenu-default-that-panics Nov 19 07:36:20 johnx: hm, that's a decent hint to why when i boot Debian directly from SD the device just powers off in 65 seconds. Nov 19 07:36:22 johnx: it means the battery ran down, yes Nov 19 07:36:26 johnx: great thanks!!! Nov 19 07:36:33 johnx: and it occurs when plugged in, preventing it from charging reasonably Nov 19 07:36:44 PaulFertser, augh! you missed my huge article on this :) Nov 19 07:36:45 on x86 laptops you get charging in bios/acpi/embedded controller - all propiertary software you can't change Nov 19 07:36:59 PaulFertser, I was facing the same thing circa January 2008 or so Nov 19 07:37:16 you can also turn off watchdog with the flasher Nov 19 07:37:26 PaulFertser: oh, look at solcas nitboot stuff Nov 19 07:37:34 suihkulokki: none of which gets in the way of rewriting everything on the system, AFAIK Nov 19 07:37:37 PaulFertser: he ran bme and such under later kernels Nov 19 07:37:56 Stskeeps: how about Macer's OpenSolaris? :) Nov 19 07:38:09 luke-jr: i am a happy opensolaris and freebsd user. Nov 19 07:38:19 BME runs on OpenSolaris? Nov 19 07:38:52 luke-jr: unless you want to change the bios to free software like the coreboot people Nov 19 07:38:55 luke-jr, opensolaris supports any of the other hardware on the system? Nov 19 07:39:16 johnx: it could, if I ported it Nov 19 07:39:34 luke-jr, great, while you're at it, strace bme Nov 19 07:39:43 johnx: strace doesn't give me any useful info Nov 19 07:39:58 johnx: I've already decompiled a number of functions in BME by hand Nov 19 07:40:19 it should tell you what it's writing to /sys, yes? Nov 19 07:40:19 johnx: it's illegal to encourage people to kill themselves isn't it? ;) Nov 19 07:40:29 johnx: yay, a bunch of random numbers that mean absolutely nothing to me Nov 19 07:40:40 morning all Nov 19 07:41:14 Stskeeps: I doubt you could be prosecuted across national borders. Nov 19 07:41:29 luke-jr, people know the meaning of the numbers coming out of the stuff in /sys. there is a battery meter that doesn't use bme at all... Nov 19 07:41:50 johnx: I don't. :p Nov 19 07:42:24 and what battery meter is that? Nov 19 07:42:38 the only thing anywhere close to what you describe is a BME client that just talks to BME Nov 19 07:42:39 kcbatt I think Nov 19 07:43:08 reads from retu and tahvo (sp?) directly and interprets the results Nov 19 07:43:26 maybe it doesn't help, but I'm just saying people have been down this trail before and gotten somewhere Nov 19 07:43:41 luke-jr: Not selling it anymore is no longer an excuse Nov 19 07:44:00 RST38h: except the chipset is probably still used in some phones Nov 19 07:44:05 luke-jr: Both Google and Apple continue supporting older hardware, to a certain degree Nov 19 07:44:17 johnx: it's easier to do things like that when it's just a go-between Nov 19 07:44:22 ah support, thought you were talking about releasing details Nov 19 07:44:30 but in the case of charging, arbitrary numbers go in, arbitrary numbers go out Nov 19 07:44:47 So, dropping support as soon as you stop selling the device is now considered a disadvantage Nov 19 07:44:50 luke-jr, have a voltmeter? Nov 19 07:44:55 * suihkulokki googles kcbatt and interesting: http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p=157311&postcount=22 Nov 19 07:44:59 lardman: No, just supporting hardware Nov 19 07:45:02 k Nov 19 07:45:02 johnx: somewhere Nov 19 07:45:18 johnx: yep, it's damn hard to find any decent info on running proper OS's on n810 :( Nov 19 07:45:23 get it out, stick the leads between your battery and n800... Nov 19 07:45:35 PaulFertser: stick to Diablo or try Mer Nov 19 07:45:36 PaulFertser, have you heard of mer? Nov 19 07:45:43 PaulFertser: http://slonopotamus.org/gentoo-on-n8x0 Nov 19 07:45:44 johnx: lardman: yep, yep. Nov 19 07:45:55 what do you mean by proper then? Nov 19 07:45:55 lardman: he said proper Nov 19 07:46:04 well gentoo is out then :p Nov 19 07:46:08 proper OS to me means not platform/purpose specific Nov 19 07:46:11 ;) Nov 19 07:46:11 lardman++ :) Nov 19 07:46:47 luke-jr, isn't a framebuffer console to purpose specific? Nov 19 07:46:54 s/to/too/ Nov 19 07:46:54 all well and good, but if your platform is constrained, it seems silly to run an os designed for larger screens, no touchscreen, more memory, storage, etc, etc. Nov 19 07:46:54 johnx meant: luke-jr, isn't a framebuffer console too purpose specific? Nov 19 07:47:09 luke-jr: what's important for me is to run an OS that follows mainline, and uses the minimum of proprietary stuff. I wanted to run Debian but it's a bit too hard to debug boot issues without the serial console :-/ Nov 19 07:47:21 n800/n810? Nov 19 07:47:30 PaulFertser: is Debian mainline these days, not 4 years behind? ;) Nov 19 07:47:30 PaulFertser: Gentoo is the best you'll find for that Nov 19 07:47:56 suihkulokki: (x86 laptops) DSDT can be changed. And anyway the fact it works like that doesn't mean it's good. E.g. i blame my laptop for killing its battery :-/ Nov 19 07:48:09 PaulFertser: if by proprietary you mean the apps, then try Mer Nov 19 07:48:24 From what I've heard Arch would match that description, but I don't have personal experience with it. Nov 19 07:48:27 luke-jr: what about the kernel stuff? Nov 19 07:48:28 PaulFertser, I can guide you on that if you want to do it by hand. you'll need a usb cable and a linux desktop Nov 19 07:48:31 hey experts, ot, how i remove all that apt-get build-dep wine installed ? Nov 19 07:48:34 PaulFertser: if by proprietary you mean the underlying sw, then you can also try Mer. But getting rid of all the proprietary stuff will lose funcitonality Nov 19 07:48:37 PaulFertser: Gentoo isn't picky about kernels. Nov 19 07:49:09 johnx: :))) Nov 19 07:49:42 johnx: i've already patched the kernel to have console output on the FB, i think i'll manage by myself, but thanks for the offer :) Nov 19 07:50:13 Oh, since you're all experts here, can anyone tell me about the cmdline ATAG passed by the bootloader? What is the best way to alter the kernel cmdline? Nov 19 07:50:15 PaulFertser, you have an N810? Nov 19 07:50:30 johnx: my friend has. But he's just a user. Nov 19 07:50:34 PaulFertser: AFAIK, the cmdline needs to be in the kernel. Nov 19 07:50:38 ah, so you're on an N800? Nov 19 07:51:03 PaulFertser: cmdline is usually hardcoded in kernel afaik Nov 19 07:51:08 johnx: i need to help him with his specific needs (run QCad and other popular soft, work with external CF cardreader etc). Nov 19 07:51:27 johnx: i'm on openmoko freerunner :P Nov 19 07:51:40 ah, fun stuff Nov 19 07:51:41 Stskeeps: i'd say it's not that usual. Nov 19 07:51:49 I can't see why you couldn't compile QCad for Diablo Nov 19 07:51:51 PaulFertser: usually = usual on n8x0 Nov 19 07:51:55 * luke-jr was so close to buying a Freerunner, but then realized GSM service was exceedingly expensive :/ Nov 19 07:52:33 when I got debian running on the N800 I did it with g_ether and utelnetd since I didn't know the magic to make my usb keyboard work at the time Nov 19 07:53:18 Stskeeps: "On some architectures (EBSA110 and CATS), there is currently no way for the boot loader to pass arguments to the kernel. For these architectures, you should supply some command-line options at build time." I guess it suggests that modern way to do it is to supply it via bootloader with ATAG. Nov 19 07:53:44 luke-jr: Freerunner couldn't even make calls out of the box, if I remember correctly Nov 19 07:54:16 RST38h: I couldn't care less about the box. Nov 19 07:54:17 luke-jr: you didn't lose much, i do not enjoy experience of using a FR. But it is cool for programming and the community is very nice. Nov 19 07:54:36 PaulFertser: even w/ the new stuff that fixes the crap? Nov 19 07:54:47 That said, i'm still using it as the only cellphone for about a year by now. Nov 19 07:55:05 PaulFertser, actually seems like quite a bit of linux-based embedded stuff doesn't get passed it's cmdline from the bootloader Nov 19 07:55:07 luke-jr: the new stuff is much better. Nov 19 07:55:23 Zaurus, Nxx0 Nov 19 07:55:52 lardman: one thing is compiling QCad and everything else you need by yourself, the other is "apt-get install qcad". I'd prefer the latter. Nov 19 07:55:52 my contact lenses run Gentoo and need cmdline embedded in the kernel... Nov 19 07:56:08 johnx: Zaurus is mad old, same about Nxx0 Nov 19 07:56:35 PaulFertser: I see, but then you swap the work of compiling QCad for the work of getting e.g. Debian running on the platform; I think the former would probably be easier Nov 19 07:57:47 PaulFertser, so, want me to try apt-get install qcad from mer for you? Nov 19 07:57:48 lardman: i really hoped Debian would "just work" on that. Apparently that's not the case and i guess the most nasty problem is nokia's "opensource" policy and unfriendliness towards free software. Nov 19 07:57:48 * Stskeeps wonders if he should be worried he uses a IA-32 Intel Architecture Software Developer's Manual volume to put his flatscreen in the right height Nov 19 07:58:03 johnx: do not bother, i'll do it myself soon. Nov 19 07:58:07 hmm, not sure where you got that opinion? Nov 19 07:58:46 lardman: anything not free software is obviously unfriendly Nov 19 07:58:50 lardman: because debian runs on almost all popular hardware that is open enough. Apparently nxx0 is not. Nov 19 07:59:12 PaulFertser: it would certainly run, if someone ported it Nov 19 07:59:14 PaulFertser: at least you can run your own kernel. Nov 19 07:59:17 and that's you at this point Nov 19 07:59:20 the biggest block I ran into was actually watchdog, which is easily shut off with the flasher Nov 19 07:59:33 debian runs fine. we just don't maintain it as it's not worth it :P Nov 19 08:00:06 you'll have to use bits in initfs, but so it goes Nov 19 08:00:07 Stskeeps: yep, i can run my own kernel but maemo doesn't work with it. Or i can run something else but it lacks support for the proprietary parts nokia decided to hide without any decent reason. Nov 19 08:00:25 PaulFertser: actually the reason why kernel doesn't work is because some kernel interfaces were changed/removed Nov 19 08:00:33 Stskeeps: yep, now i understand the importance of initfs :( Nov 19 08:00:50 PaulFertser: cos of noone bothering to keep n8x0 kernel support up to date Nov 19 08:01:16 Stskeeps: and the reason for that is that nokia was stupid/selfish enough to not push nxx0 support mainline and use standard kernel interfaces intead of inventing their own. Nov 19 08:01:18 also because Nokia's blobs require kernel bugs :) Nov 19 08:01:35 the reason the latest kernels don't run on the N8x0 with all the features enabled has much less to do with Nokia's open source policy and much more to do with lack of maintenance Nov 19 08:01:38 PaulFertser: there was originally not even sane omap support in mainline.. Nov 19 08:01:42 PaulFertser: actually, it's more because initfs uses static /dev instead of udev Nov 19 08:01:57 anyway Nov 19 08:02:01 less talk, more doing Nov 19 08:02:08 * Stskeeps goes do work Nov 19 08:02:08 Stskeeps++ Nov 19 08:02:55 PaulFertser: the only real practical issue with Gentoo and a fairly recent kernel is the GPS blob Nov 19 08:02:57 PaulFertser, if you run into problems, I can probably get you up into debian in ~30 minutes. If you want to stop by #mer we're happy to have you Nov 19 08:02:58 currently working on getting toolchain proper for initfs. that's openness you can actually touch. Nov 19 08:03:36 Stskeeps: i see it like this: free software for Nokia is a cheap whore, rather than a lover. That's about the attitude. Nov 19 08:04:16 I see it more like this: some things are only available with NDA, therefore they can't be shared; some things add competitive advantage, therefore they aren't shared Nov 19 08:04:22 PaulFertser: not going to bother discussing, sorry. i'm much more of a practical person than running on ideology. Nov 19 08:04:23 johnx: the key was the importance of the daemons started from initfs. Thanks again for that :) And yes, quite possibly i'll try mer sooner than later. Nov 19 08:04:25 PaulFertser, heaven knows what it is for Palm/others then :) Nov 19 08:04:45 PaulFertser: no matter your ideology, i will gladly help out in seeing what's up with your boot stuff though Nov 19 08:04:50 lardman: so take from the community and give back only what is worthless Nov 19 08:05:01 no Nov 19 08:05:12 lardman: "competitive advantage" looks more like a myth to me. I've never seen any proof it really helps to hide the code to get that. Nov 19 08:05:14 about Nokia/open source: they actually do pay the bills for a ton of people who contribute to open source projects, such as bluez, linux-omap, etc Nov 19 08:05:53 well stuff like the charging daemon which would provide info about their chipsets, they don't want people ripping off their GUI apps, etc. Nov 19 08:05:54 the proof is in the commit logs from @nokia.com (and @collabora and @indt) Nov 19 08:06:00 Stskeeps: ok, thanks a lot to you too :) I hope i'll come next time with more nice words :) Nov 19 08:06:09 I don't necessarily agree, but I can see the reasoning and am content Nov 19 08:06:10 johnx: interesting to note Kalle Valo has to do N8x0 mainlining off work hours Nov 19 08:06:24 luke-jr: no, he's doing that voluntarily, not 'has to do' Nov 19 08:06:29 luke-jr: Well it's not paid for any more as the platform is dead....? Nov 19 08:06:33 Stskeeps: but it's not on time he's paid for Nov 19 08:06:36 that's my point Nov 19 08:06:39 and Nov 19 08:06:49 I don't get paid to do this either Nov 19 08:06:56 luke-jr: companies have release schedules, and so it is Nov 19 08:07:26 johnx: i know they pay several quite important developers. But not because they support free software, rather because they use it. The same prostitute/lover analogy. Nov 19 08:07:36 luke-jr, not saying that nokia is perfect, but they catch a much worse rap than they deserve Nov 19 08:07:43 The company exists for the customers and employees. Nov 19 08:07:45 Not vice-versa. Nov 19 08:08:02 no, the company exists for the shareholders Nov 19 08:08:09 I couldn't care less about "the company". Nov 19 08:08:11 johnx: So, have we gone to Conspiracy phase while I was away working? Nov 19 08:08:32 lardman: no, that misconception is why modern companies are so flawed Nov 19 08:08:43 how is it misconceived? Nov 19 08:08:44 yeah, tired of talking Nov 19 08:08:53 lardman is essentially correct Nov 19 08:09:13 RST38h, nah, just Nokia bashing cause they don't give people the code to grenade their batteries Nov 19 08:09:28 PaulFertser: We are all here in pay of Nokia. You should eat the blue pill quick to get back to comfortable reality. Nov 19 08:09:46 johnx: if you think a proper LiIon battery is easy to "grenade" (not raw cell, but the whole battery!) you're wrong. Nov 19 08:09:50 johnx: I would not Nov 19 08:09:54 really if someone wanted to and was willing to fry a couple of batteries, they could work out how the hw worked Nov 19 08:09:58 RST38h, you make it sound like we're not all just one guy with multiple nicks :) Nov 19 08:09:59 RST38h: i will Nov 19 08:10:28 johnx: Battery charging and powersave code is so...mmmhm...specialized, that it is not of much use to OSS community anyway Nov 19 08:10:33 lardman: batteries include protection circuits on its own, even old bl-5c does. Nov 19 08:10:43 johnx: Also very sensitive in terms of NDAs with SoC manufacturer (i.e. TI) Nov 19 08:11:03 johnx: Of course we are just one guy, we are the puppets Nov 19 08:11:09 lardman: and the cases where batteries failed are due to the manufacturing process, that couldn't have been helped by any "specialised" software. Nov 19 08:11:15 N8x0 battery charging has nothing to do with TI Nov 19 08:11:29 luke-jr: actually there might actually be Nov 19 08:11:35 twl something Nov 19 08:11:37 ? Nov 19 08:11:40 Stskeeps: how come? Nov 19 08:11:41 johnx: I suggest we declare Qgil to be the puppet master and spread this information as wide as possible, so the next time he comes here he gets mighty surprised =) Nov 19 08:12:10 PaulFertser: I bow to your superior battery wisdom, but we don't actually know if the Nokia batteries has heat cutouts do we? Nov 19 08:12:11 luke-jr: which wifi driver do you use on your gentoo-n8x0 ? Nov 19 08:12:12 RST38h, heh. that poor guy catches so much crap :) Nov 19 08:12:19 PaulFertser: Ok, let me put it plainly for you: Nov 19 08:12:29 suihkulokki: depends on which kernel is booted Nov 19 08:12:35 RST38h: if you claim the code is useless to everybody anyway, why not just release it and let others decide if they like it or not? Nov 19 08:12:41 PaulFertser: There are two things in your gadget firmware with which you DO NOT want to mess AT ALL Nov 19 08:12:47 lardman: no heat cutouts i guess. Nov 19 08:12:57 PaulFertser: These are battery charging and clock control Nov 19 08:13:12 PaulFertser: the second one may also be known as power save to some people Nov 19 08:13:40 RST38h: tell me the way to do something nasty with a modern LiIon battery please. Nov 19 08:13:46 PaulFertser: Notice that I am not working for Nokia and am in fact talking based on my experience with a different, non-OMAP chip Nov 19 08:13:49 RST38h: i have some spares so i can afford experimenting. Nov 19 08:14:05 RST38h: not about raw cell, but about a good battery. Nov 19 08:14:25 PaulFertser: The reason why you do not want to mess with them is because what they do heavily depends on the analog circuitry inside your device, the battery type used, etc. Nov 19 08:15:01 I've read of no report ever about LiIon batteries doing anything nasty because of being mistreated. Only manufacturing deficiencies that are unrelated to the charging software. Nov 19 08:15:07 PaulFertser: If people start messing with item #1, they will most likely get dead batteries (not necessarily exploded) and/or dead devices in some cases Nov 19 08:15:23 RST38h: and _I_ want to know and understand analog circuity inside _my_ device, i think that's a reasonable expectation. Nov 19 08:15:42 I don't Nov 19 08:15:45 really Nov 19 08:15:48 PaulFertser: If people mess with item #2 (power save) they again end up with dead batteries (just over longer period of time) and sometimes with dead SoC chips Nov 19 08:16:02 do you want to know how the combustion swirl is achieved inside your car engine? Nov 19 08:16:03 lardman: you don't-- by your choice or by someone else telling you no? Nov 19 08:16:06 RST38h: i got a dead battery in my laptop already, i think if i could control it it would serve me longer. Nov 19 08:16:25 PaulFertser: Now, if you would like to understand how battery charging and powersave features work in modern SoCs, I suggest you start with Google and Wikipedia Nov 19 08:16:42 luke-jr: You may want something, but it being a reasonable expectation is another matter Nov 19 08:16:48 lardman: (engine) interesting Nov 19 08:16:50 PaulFertser: I am sure this information should be in the open somewhere, just not on the particular SoC (OMAP3) Nov 19 08:17:16 lardman: it is perfectly reasonable to expect Joe to have no say about what Fred does with Fred's device. Nov 19 08:17:17 RST38h: how is battery charging related to any SoC? Nov 19 08:17:37 PaulFerster: If, after reading up on these subjects, you STILL want to mess with your device, talk to Sts or lardman and they will tell you what they know Nov 19 08:17:41 anyone know why some apps in the repo aren't displaying in App Mgr even after refresh? Nov 19 08:17:46 RST38h: as to the clocks, there's also an important issue: mainline support. Nov 19 08:18:19 Venomrush, showing up for other people but not you? or showing up in apt but not the GUI app manager? Nov 19 08:18:21 PaulFertser: If all you want to do is bitch about how it is Nokia conspiracy and how "all code should be free", keep in mind that we have heard it many many times here. So you are being boring, not revolutionary Nov 19 08:18:21 charging is carried out by a chip Nov 19 08:18:22 RST38h: kernel interfaces do and will change. And that is for good. Having all dynamic clocking needed for you device upstream helps a lot. And not having it frustrates community developers to no end. Nov 19 08:18:49 RST38h: (being boring) always is, not a surprise Nov 19 08:18:49 in GUI app mgr Nov 19 08:19:03 Venomrush, are they in the right "Section:"? Nov 19 08:19:11 "Section: user/foo" for example Nov 19 08:19:14 PaulFerster: Once again: you do not want to mess with clocks and SoC core voltages unless you KNOW wat you are doing Nov 19 08:19:31 PaulFertser: In fact, even with an official set of datasheets it is unadvisable Nov 19 08:19:40 RST38h: but i've read some important stuff about liion batteries. And i've seen schematics. And i'm taking care of pcf50633 driver which charges batteries on our freerunners. Nov 19 08:19:59 nope, not even in any, i 'scanned' throuh All, not there either, Search didn't show up with anything Nov 19 08:20:37 PaulFertser: Then your itch to mess with battery charging should be satisfied :) Nov 19 08:20:55 RST38h: unless i need to run free software on n810, yes. Nov 19 08:20:59 Venomrush, that's not exactly what I mean. If the section isn't "user/*" then it won't show up Nov 19 08:21:20 * RST38h has no problems running free software on n810 Nov 19 08:21:20 johnx, i don't quite understand Nov 19 08:21:22 if it's in the repo, and you tell me the package name I think I could look and tell you Nov 19 08:21:31 hmm, anyone here used maemo-version? Nov 19 08:22:55 I have, amongst other things: gstreamer0.10-plugins-bad-dev | maemo-version (<5.0) Nov 19 08:23:16 yet on Diablo it's complaining: mbarcode depends on gstreamer0.10-plugins-bad; Nov 19 08:23:25 Venomrush, from the x terminal, run apt-cache show Nov 19 08:23:52 johnx, repo: extras-testing | package: iNES Nov 19 08:23:52 it should say "Section: " if that "" doesn't match "user/*" it won't show up in the application manager Nov 19 08:24:13 Venomrush, for maemo4 or maemo5? Nov 19 08:24:17 maemo5 Nov 19 08:24:33 Venomrush: I am sorry, are you using a real N900? Nov 19 08:24:36 i'm using SDK btw Nov 19 08:24:39 not real N90 Nov 19 08:24:45 *N900 Nov 19 08:24:56 Venomrush: Then forget about running iNES, AlmostTI, etc Nov 19 08:25:10 any particular reasons? Nov 19 08:25:13 * RST38h now understands what is going on Nov 19 08:25:18 Won't work on the SDK. Nov 19 08:25:52 ah, what's the reason? Nov 19 08:26:03 That is the reason :) Nov 19 08:26:18 Does flash work in SDK? Nov 19 08:26:26 Who knows... Nov 19 08:26:38 emulation issue? Nov 19 08:26:57 * RST38h stopped trying running anything on the SDK after file-open dialog crashed it in Chinook Nov 19 08:27:02 Venomrush, aaaah, so you're on the X86 target. got it Nov 19 08:27:06 yeah, I don;t bother either Nov 19 08:27:16 lardman: Well, there are huge chunks of handwritten ARM assembly in my stuff Nov 19 08:27:26 lardman: It is banging fb0 like crazy Nov 19 08:27:31 yeah, that would be troublesome for the x86 target ;) Nov 19 08:27:37 johnx, yup i'm on x86 target Nov 19 08:27:45 lardman: And the ARM emulation in the SDK is a freaking minefield Nov 19 08:27:49 should i change? Nov 19 08:27:51 yeah, I'm positive ines won't compile for x86 Nov 19 08:27:52 yeah, I've seen that Nov 19 08:27:59 Venomrush: You should get a real device. Nov 19 08:28:10 johnx: Well, it will, just not the Maemo version :) Nov 19 08:28:24 RST38h, right Nov 19 08:28:26 RST38h i pre-ordered since Sept mate..disappointed still haven't receive it Nov 19 08:28:57 RST38h, not able to get it through DDP too atm Nov 19 08:29:17 Well, just wait then Nov 19 08:29:29 Venomrush, just wait a little longer. the SDK really isn't that great for a lot of things, especially emulators Nov 19 08:29:39 where is Jeremiah when I need debianisation help!? Nov 19 08:29:42 :) Nov 19 08:29:43 Because SDK will not get you very far in terms of use. It is for developing apps not for running them Nov 19 08:30:48 thanks guys Nov 19 08:32:53 RST38h: btw, if you can give some particular advice or example of ill effects due to messing with clocks/voltages, it'd be very nice of you; it can help me in my future activities. Zaranee spasibo. Nov 19 08:33:23 PaulFertser: Well, I can only talk of personal experiences Nov 19 08:33:55 RST38h: so can you share some? Nov 19 08:33:56 PaulFertser: First of all, you have to take into account that your CPU and SDRAM clocks are usually related through a divider Nov 19 08:34:21 PaulFertser: And there is only a handful of their combinations, you can't change them at will Nov 19 08:34:35 RST38h: sure Nov 19 08:34:42 PaulFertser: Now, SDRAM chips usually do not go faster than 160MHz or so Nov 19 08:34:53 PaulFertser: And even at these frequencies they become flakey Nov 19 08:35:08 RST38h: PLLs, dividers, different clocking options, maximum frequencies, that's well known. Nov 19 08:36:26 PaulFertser: Also, even if you THINK you have got the right clock frequencies, and they are in allowed ranges, other IP blocks included into the SoC may start breaking down, so you have to keep CPU/SDRAM clocks down Nov 19 08:36:34 And btw recent advaces in Linux are making handling of all the constraints, gating option etc much easier than it used to be. Nov 19 08:36:46 (in my cases it was the display controller DMA causing memory conflicts) Nov 19 08:37:23 Man, this has nothing to do with Linux. Has everything to do with the physics of particular chips. May even differ in behavior from one batch of chips to another. Nov 19 08:38:13 Also, higher clocks require higher core voltages. Higher core voltages cause exponential grow in power consumption and also add heat Nov 19 08:38:25 RST38h: i understand that hardware limitations are inevitable. But they become more manageable with a good clocking framework inside the kernel. Nov 19 08:38:44 For example, one of Nokia guys wanred us that we should not keep OMAP3 at top clock rates for long time, as it will physically damage the chip Nov 19 08:39:03 RST38h: was it true? Nov 19 08:39:20 no one knows yet :) Nov 19 08:39:24 PaulFertser: They become manageable with a good engineer who has access to classified information and tunes your low level firmware before you get to play with your Linux on the device Nov 19 08:39:25 johnx: TI should Nov 19 08:39:27 I'm looking forward to the first person finding out Nov 19 08:39:33 PaulFertser: Wanna test it? Nov 19 08:39:40 PaulFertser, they didn't design the N900's case Nov 19 08:40:13 omap3 trm is public and it should have pretty much all clock/pll/divider etc info Nov 19 08:40:32 Correct: this stuff depends on the Soc itself, the place on the board where it is mounted, the heat transfer rates through the case, the analog circuitry, the battery, etc Nov 19 08:40:33 and the cpufreq code would be a pretty good guide as well, I'd imagine Nov 19 08:40:47 RST38h: (low level firmware) how is dynamic clocking can be managed then? With the help of the firmware hooks outside the kernel? I didn't think that is considered a good option by the core Linux devs. Nov 19 08:41:09 And even if it works for you, it may break for 5 people out of a 100 and Nokia still has a support disaster Nov 19 08:41:10 there is no firmware :) it's all in the kernel. Nov 19 08:41:36 suihkulokki: there is still a bootprep of some kind, I reckon? Nov 19 08:42:14 johnx: you know how the rumors spread. Probably somebody at nokia tried running at top speed and the case got hot and he told somebody that it shouldn't be done etc. Nov 19 08:42:22 yeah the bootloader sets up the hw Nov 19 08:42:26 PaulFertser: I do not know. In the SoC I worked with, running EA Linux, it was partially managed by the kernel, and there also was some low level library that kernel used Nov 19 08:42:51 PaulFertser: By all means, get an N900 and try overclocking shit out of it Nov 19 08:42:55 PaulFertser: the guy who said it is involved in low level stuff, so I believe what he said Nov 19 08:42:59 lardman: sets up the initial state. But PLLs and gating is managed on kernel level thereafter. Nov 19 08:43:00 RST38h: some stuff is preset in the bootloader and ofcourse there is bootrom to find the boootloader, but it doesn't do anything after the boot Nov 19 08:43:12 PaulFertser, like I said: I'm looking forward to someone seeing if it's true Nov 19 08:43:21 either way, I'm sure I'll enjoy the results :) Nov 19 08:43:24 suihkulokki: Aha, pretty much corresponds to what I have seen with other platforms Nov 19 08:43:37 eg. it is not like pc where the kernel calls the acpi firmware to do power managment Nov 19 08:43:49 suihkulokki: bootprep sets SDRAM config, initializes clocks and power to some safe configuration, then boots Linux and lets it do the rest Nov 19 08:44:19 And the kernel is linked ot a few manufacturer supplied files that do low level stuff Nov 19 08:44:41 lardman: i hope there's no chance for misunderstanding him? Did he mentioned the temperature? Or what? Nov 19 08:44:55 he didn't say why, just said not to do it Nov 19 08:45:23 lardman: my guess is that you also start hitting corner cases at higher frequencies Nov 19 08:45:25 RST38h: yeah, but the clocks and sdram config is modified from the kernel all the time as kernel switches the omap3 off whenever nothing is done on the cpu Nov 19 08:45:27 lardman: sorry, but claims like that doesn't sound credibly. Quite the opposite :( Nov 19 08:45:27 I would have assumed thermal, but I guess the SoC has thermal protection, so presumably something else Nov 19 08:45:44 well it's credible in my eyes Nov 19 08:45:46 lardman: as in "when memory accesses are x cycles apart, the second access returns garbage" Nov 19 08:46:01 RST38h: that won't break the device though, and that's what he said iirc Nov 19 08:46:11 lardman: then it must be thermal Nov 19 08:46:13 lardman, what's the motive for getting up on stage and not telling the truth about that topic? Nov 19 08:46:13 suihkulokki: i think it's not calling acpi firmware, it's rather intepreting acpi-scripts. Nov 19 08:46:22 I'll just send him an email and ask what the outcome is shall I? Nov 19 08:46:40 johnx: none, I quite agree with you Nov 19 08:46:49 johnx: I didn't suggest that Nov 19 08:46:54 lardman, sorry. wasn't aimed at you :) Nov 19 08:46:58 lol, np Nov 19 08:47:00 suihkulokki: yea, in the kernel I have seen, there was a whole power management framework for that with arrays of settings for each power level Nov 19 08:47:32 RST38h: so in the end kernel devs want to mess with clocking ;) Nov 19 08:47:38 suihkulokki: the more or less generic Linux part was responsible for converting these settings to whatever low-level lib understood and calling that lib Nov 19 08:48:08 PaulFertser: to a degree Nov 19 08:48:32 PaulFertser: although usually these settings get tuned by the electrical engineer not by linux kernel devs Nov 19 08:48:33 RST38h: if you say kernel should use a proprietary lib to do that, you're never getting upstream support i guess. Nov 19 08:48:57 PaulFertser: you have made a pointless statement Nov 19 08:49:25 RST38h: if you mean by lib "clock framework" yes Nov 19 08:49:36 They do not NEED "upstream support" for 3-4 files with functions that midify their own proprietary SoC registers Nov 19 08:50:41 suihkulokki: in the code I have seen they simply used a few files from their pre-linux platform to do the low level stuff, with the standard linux clock framework calling them Nov 19 08:50:48 RST38h: they do need upstream support so the user can just git clone a recent bug-fixed feature-full kernel.org kernel and use it without additional compatibility problems to solve. Nov 19 08:51:28 what's up with everyone calling the SDK the "Maemo emulator"? *sigh* Nov 19 08:51:31 PaulFertser: What is "git"? What is "clone"? What is "kernel"? Nov 19 08:51:45 PaulFertser: I just want to play a movie on my N900, ok? Nov 19 08:51:58 javispedro: You should ask Venomrush Nov 19 08:52:01 RST38h: the stuff n900 does is all included in the board-rx51* files in the kernel Nov 19 08:52:09 javispedro: He planted that idea :) Nov 19 08:52:12 TheUser: what is compatibility? what is problems? waht is bug? what is feature-full? ;) Nov 19 08:52:24 javispedro: Exactly :) Nov 19 08:52:34 RST38h: come on, you enjoy using mainline kernel on your laptop, do not you? Would you prefer to go through pains of compiling it with some strange vendor-provided lib every time you want to update the kernel version? Nov 19 08:52:44 PaulFertser: No Nov 19 08:52:52 PaulFertser: I run WinXP. Nov 19 08:52:57 Next question? Nov 19 08:52:58 ROFL Nov 19 08:53:02 PaulFertser: if that allows me to run nvidiacrappy 3d graphics, I'd consider it. Nov 19 08:53:06 in fact, I DO it. Nov 19 08:53:40 suihkulokki: I guess for them it was the result of having a complete platform when they started doing Linux Nov 19 08:54:03 javispedro: i'd prefer to lack 3d support altogether. Or use ati or intel cards that have some more sane policy towards good OSs. Nov 19 08:54:09 suihkulokki: Did not want to drop and rewrite everything. But they did stick all those files into a proper platform directory under the Linux src tree :) Nov 19 08:54:33 PaulFertser: well congrats. OpenMoko is still on business :) Nov 19 08:54:35 PaulFertser: So you should probably stick with Freerunner Nov 19 08:54:42 heh. Nov 19 08:54:54 PaulFertser: Even with OpenMoko out of business, the People should be able ot maintain it forever Nov 19 08:55:01 RST38h: unfortunately it sucks in too many aspects too. :( Nov 19 08:55:01 It is OSS! Nov 19 08:55:14 PaulFertser: BTW, can you make phone calls with it? Nov 19 08:55:23 RST38h: i use it as my only cellphone for a year now. Nov 19 08:55:34 RST38h: and yes, i can make and receive phone calls. Nov 19 08:55:55 GPRS support is there too. But not EDGE. Not even mentioning 3G. Nov 19 08:55:59 cooool Nov 19 08:56:51 PaulFertser: You know that Soviets already tried technological progress based on sheer enthusiasm once? Nov 19 08:57:14 I guess the morning "it's not full OSS" argument is going to become a tradition here. Nov 19 08:57:25 PaulFertser: Are you aware of the results? Nov 19 08:57:38 RST38h: if you're talking about "intensifikatsia" during Gorbachev's times, yes. Nov 19 08:57:51 No, I am talking about the whole encihlada Nov 19 08:58:20 ES10xx series, SMxxxx series, ES184x (PC clones) Nov 19 08:58:30 Pocket calcs Nov 19 08:58:33 Cars Nov 19 08:58:45 RST38h: i drive a soviet car ;) Nov 19 08:58:54 A Lada? Nov 19 08:59:09 RST38h: vaz21013 1200cc 1983 Nov 19 08:59:36 All schematics are available :P Nov 19 08:59:43 oh no, no, no, the maemo emulator "concept" is leakinga all over the web :( Nov 19 09:00:02 (well, in fact no, i do not have schematics for the ingition module) Nov 19 09:00:06 Paul: You know that they are still MAKING those? Nov 19 09:00:46 http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/8367141.stm Yay! Nov 19 09:01:00 RST38h: i think AvtoVAZ doesn't produce 2106/7 anymore. They're focused on Chevy Niva, Lada Kalina and some other "modern" shit. Nov 19 09:01:03 Paul: In spite of the whole country basically screaming to close the factory, kill all the workers and bury them in a mass grave, and cover the whole place with aslphalt? Nov 19 09:01:16 Spanish research! don't trust. Nov 19 09:01:21 ;) Nov 19 09:01:25 Paul: 2106/2105/2107/2104 production has now been moved to Chechnya Nov 19 09:01:50 javispedro: well I can trust it if I like the sound of it :) Nov 19 09:01:52 * RST38h laughs diabolically: no more bombs, now these guys can just produce the mobile capsules of death =) Nov 19 09:01:55 RST38h: so it's not "they" who are still producing that ancient models. Nov 19 09:02:22 Paul: 2109 is no more modern than 2107 Nov 19 09:02:37 RST38h: the soviet technological progress was based on military requirements, not on a sheer enthusiasm. Nov 19 09:02:57 Paul: Just in case you wonder, 2170/71/72 is pretty much a 2110 in a slightly restyled body Nov 19 09:02:58 http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/8366190.stm cool Nov 19 09:03:07 morning Nov 19 09:03:19 hi hrw Nov 19 09:03:23 Paul: Let me see... no competition, no profit, no salaries... Must be sheer enthusiasm, right? Nov 19 09:03:46 RST38h: i think i can compare 2109 and 2107, 2109 is really better. Much better suspension system, better steering etc. Nov 19 09:04:09 PaulFertser: Why don't you compare 2109 with a Ford Escort? Nov 19 09:04:33 RST38h: there was also fear. And competition, even tenders among different organisations. Nov 19 09:04:45 oh, there's now a rumour out there which guarantees you're going to receive a free dc-11 (external battery) as compensation for the n900 delay. Nov 19 09:05:01 javispedro: where's all this stuff coming from? Nov 19 09:05:17 * lardman wonders why no-one has compiled Maemo-mapper for Fremantle Nov 19 09:05:20 lardman: http://www.elrincondelmaemo.com/Foro/content.php?42-Nokia-se-disculpa-por-el-retraso-del-N900-con-regalo-incluido (spanish) Nov 19 09:05:27 RST38h: have never driven a ford, so unfortunately not. But i can compare with Daewoo Nexia. Basically it's as shitty as my 2101. Nov 19 09:05:31 lardman: crashed last time i tried to use it personally Nov 19 09:05:45 Stskeeps: is it available somewhere? Nov 19 09:05:54 in git repo Nov 19 09:06:00 ah ok Nov 19 09:06:12 did gnuite move on or what happened to maemo-mapper development? Nov 19 09:06:16 * lardman thinks of Ordnance Survey map overlays Nov 19 09:06:25 tigert: he's working for Google now Nov 19 09:06:25 * suihkulokki wonders how autovaz has failed to modernize so badly Nov 19 09:06:29 lardman: ah Nov 19 09:06:35 the black hole of hackers :( Nov 19 09:06:43 so I think slight conflict of interest too Nov 19 09:06:49 that too yeah Nov 19 09:06:52 * javispedro notices the mail the quote looks totally fake Nov 19 09:07:02 s/the/they Nov 19 09:07:10 now that it's a bit later in the morning, has anyone here used maemo-version? Nov 19 09:07:40 I mean, china, korea, india and the rest of east europe where at the lada 2101 stage in the '80s too, but the managed to actually keep with times and are now even exporting to europe Nov 19 09:07:50 lardman: I use maemo-version but not on build-depends Nov 19 09:08:09 well, I put in in build-depends as is then use the /etc/maemo_version file to conditionally build on debian/rules file Nov 19 09:08:10 seems to work for build depends, just not for the installation package Nov 19 09:08:19 the package is not on device Nov 19 09:08:20 only sdk repo Nov 19 09:08:57 oh, cool windows. Nov 19 09:09:16 a giant popup opened telling me there was a Visual C++ runtime error in firefox.exe Nov 19 09:09:17 javispedro: yeah but I guess when the control file is created it should strip out those packages which weren't used? Nov 19 09:09:17 PaulFertser: anyway Lada 210x is Fiat 124 Nov 19 09:09:18 but it still works. Nov 19 09:09:30 did someone got DDP n900 shipped? Nov 19 09:09:39 suihkulokki: russia as a whole is too fucked up, no wonder a big former state-sponsored car manufacturer can't do anything in a decent way. Nov 19 09:09:40 lardman: just don't depend on maemo-version, only build-depend Nov 19 09:09:41 balls, I see my mistake now Nov 19 09:10:01 user-error Nov 19 09:10:04 * lardman hides in shame Nov 19 09:10:24 Paul: Let us leave bastardized korean opel alone Nov 19 09:10:29 why I have this feeling that if I click "OK" on the runtime error popup the entire perfectly working firefox will close Nov 19 09:10:45 Paul: Compare to a normal contemporary car of the same class Nov 19 09:10:50 * javispedro clicks Nov 19 09:11:04 hrw: not exactly. Soviet engineers modified it somewhat. E.g. Fiat 124 has rear disk brakes while 2101 features rear drum brakes. Also many other little features that were actually important at the times, like better and more sturdy suspension to drive on shitty roads etc. Nov 19 09:11:06 Paul: Escort, Mazda 323, even Kia Nov 19 09:11:34 Paul: And yes, you are allowed to compare to 2110 if you wish Nov 19 09:12:02 Paul: You will immediately see what I mean by non-profit development leading nowhere Nov 19 09:12:12 * javispedro_ sighs Nov 19 09:12:20 RST38h: so, what's your point? That avtovaz can't make a decent car? No doubt. But can you offer me a decent alternative to the old Niva? As cheap, as reliable, as small and as suitable for (not so) moderate offroad? Nov 19 09:12:31 recent developments: "VAZ has also tried to get into the sportier markets: several Ladas were factory-tuned and given a Momo steering wheel." Nov 19 09:12:49 Paul: My point is that you need business competition, with all the "bad" things that flow from it Nov 19 09:13:02 Paul: Little Honda HRV works for us here Nov 19 09:13:11 PaulFertser: sure. Polish guys also improved Fiat 125 during production of Polish Fiat 125p/FSO1500/Polonez Nov 19 09:13:23 suihkulokki: VAX is a Russian Amtrak. Nov 19 09:13:26 RST38h: price and offroad qualities are not comparable i think. Nov 19 09:13:28 VAZ, sorry Nov 19 09:14:24 Paul: As far as I am concerned, HRV is enough. Neither of them has a frame, and if you want a Russian offroad, get a freaking UAZ Nov 19 09:14:27 RST38h: i think that the competition should be technical, not business. When the best feature/framework/device is judged on technical merits, not by some illiterate guys who can't even compile a kernel themselves. Nov 19 09:14:44 Paul: And deal with Willis GP hardware designed in 1940s Nov 19 09:15:14 Paul: Technical merits do not pay for food. Nov 19 09:15:20 Money does. Nov 19 09:15:57 anyone got a n8x0 handy? does /mnt/initfs/lib/ contain anything with c++? Nov 19 09:16:18 RST38h: you're talking like it's hard for any educated westerner to get enough food. Come on, it's not about the food. It's about buying useless consumerists things. You do not really need much money for food. Nov 19 09:16:40 Paul: Mmmm.../// Nov 19 09:16:50 * RST38h will let educated westerners answer that Nov 19 09:16:56 Stskeeps: no Nov 19 09:17:06 as in *c++* ? Nov 19 09:17:17 Stskeeps: o Nov 19 09:17:21 Stskeeps: no Nov 19 09:18:08 my caviar and champagne for dinner every night makes a fair hole in my pay packet Nov 19 09:18:20 ;) Nov 19 09:19:45 RST38h: if you want a "decent" house, car etc, and take loans even for the furniture, then of course you need money. But if you do not value imaginary goodies, you can probably get by doing whatever you like. Nov 19 09:20:26 So you do not want a decent house? And you do not need a car? Nov 19 09:20:31 It's expensiv even for a not decent house where I live .. Nov 19 09:20:37 And eating out of garbage bins is fine? Nov 19 09:20:37 I guess hand held electronic devices come under the not needed category Nov 19 09:20:48 lardman: Freerunner. Nov 19 09:21:27 RST38h: that useless imitation of devboard? Nov 19 09:21:34 RST38h: i live in a flat here. And buying a new flat in Moscow is impossible for an ordinary engineer anyway, so i do not even bother thinking about that. I can buy a more modern car but i do not need it, i can live without a car whatsoever. And i do not need no fucking furniture. Nov 19 09:22:09 Calm down :P Nov 19 09:22:09 * RST38h bought a flat in Moscow Nov 19 09:22:26 hrw: that useless device is my only cellphone. And i met quite some nice people and learned a lot while having fun with it. So it's definetely worth it. Nov 19 09:22:27 Paul: But we were talking about educated westerners ;) Nov 19 09:22:53 * lardman heads to work, bbiab Nov 19 09:22:54 RST38h: tell me russia is not Europe Nov 19 09:23:02 hrw: k Nov 19 09:23:11 Paul: It is Eurasia, the second part is important Nov 19 09:23:26 PaulFertser: ok, for you it is worth. I have two neo1973 devices and do not remember when list time touched any of them Nov 19 09:23:41 RST38h: so you mean it's easier to live doing "honest" engineering in russia than in the usa? Nov 19 09:24:06 hrw: you're on the other level of involvment. Nov 19 09:24:08 Paul: I know of very few places in Russia where you can do engineering Nov 19 09:24:17 Paul: Most of them are offices of foreign companies Nov 19 09:24:34 Paul: Let us count: Sun, Boeing, Intel, Cisco Nov 19 09:24:43 typical tmo thread: is there handwriting avail? qwerty: NO! there's this beta soft you may want to help. tmo user: ah, so THERE IS handwriting. Nov 19 09:24:57 javis: qwerty should stop at NO Nov 19 09:25:24 RST38h: i do not think i'd like working for corporations Nov 19 09:25:27 at the moment i'm pondering if PB's hacker forum wasn't a bad idea. Nov 19 09:25:28 :P Nov 19 09:25:38 Paul: who do you work for then? Nov 19 09:25:56 RST38h: small company that produces UPSes for telephony and other electronical stuff. Nov 19 09:26:47 RST38h: :) Nov 19 09:26:50 RST38h: and btw i could easily live by doing private tutoring, teaching maths/physics/programming or something like that. It's really easy. Nov 19 09:27:03 Paul: Yes, but will you be creating something new? Nov 19 09:27:11 Paul: Are you creating something new right now? Nov 19 09:27:23 Nov 19 09:28:21 RST38h: i can make a living working part-time so i have plenty of free time to do whatever i like, including creating something new. And btw even helping fellow openmokoers is important in my opinion. Nov 19 09:29:23 heh... when I will finally clean desk.. Nov 19 09:33:01 Honestly, to me it seems like earning money is overrated, most people get more than they need and yet feel unhappy because they're trapped in a consumerist society. Nov 19 09:33:44 PaulFertser: it depends on where you live, do you have family or not and few other things Nov 19 09:35:12 hrw: indeed. But still. "Nice" car or "nice" bed or other thingks like that is what most engineers have. Meaning they've earned enough to buy things thinking that buying makes one happy. Nov 19 09:35:51 * aquatix drives a 1996 car and is quite happy Nov 19 09:37:14 It's about the life attitude. /me would prefer sleeping on the floor or DIYing a bed rather than buying one. Nov 19 09:38:42 * aquatix doesn't have the time for DIYing one :( Nov 19 09:38:52 of course i can make time Nov 19 09:40:26 back Nov 19 09:41:00 PaulFerster: lemme guess: single, no children? Nov 19 09:41:30 aquatix: I sold my 97 one and drive 2006 one Nov 19 09:42:49 hrw: i might do something similar after next year, which will be an expensive year :) Nov 19 09:44:49 RST38h: "single, no children, no job"? :) Nov 19 09:45:38 alterego: hey, that is unfair he has got a job Nov 19 09:45:56 good morning Nov 19 09:46:10 I just doubt the desire to sleep on the floor is gonna last through his marriage Nov 19 09:46:17 Hahah Nov 19 09:47:08 Looks like no-one will get their devices before Christmas :) Nov 19 09:47:18 source? Nov 19 09:47:19 I though the NIH virus only affected corporations, not individuals. Nov 19 09:47:30 Is Deja-Vu a valid source? :) Nov 19 09:47:37 my-symbian.com guy got a release phone for review yesterday ;) Nov 19 09:47:43 depends on the drugs you used Nov 19 09:47:55 O, yeah, Americans always win . :( Nov 19 09:48:06 alterego: he's not american Nov 19 09:48:12 Really? Nov 19 09:48:17 Really. Nov 19 09:48:22 Central Europe. Nov 19 09:48:28 my-symbian fellow is Serbian I think Nov 19 09:48:37 or Romanian Nov 19 09:48:39 Nope ;) Nov 19 09:48:42 Oh Nov 19 09:49:07 considering the symbian "success" in america I find it unlikely a site called "my-symbian" being there =) Nov 19 09:49:16 He's from (and in) Poland Nov 19 09:49:42 Great, so the Polish are stealing all the N900's :P Nov 19 09:49:58 I wish I'd gone to Amsterdam instead of Iceland now :( Nov 19 09:50:25 I wish, it would mean I'd have one ;) Nov 19 09:51:24 viq: one, two weeks, and it will have reached shops. Nov 19 09:51:24 I seriously expect it to ship this week or next Nov 19 09:51:32 heh. Nov 19 09:51:40 'Nokia does it again! All attendees of #Maemo Developer Days to get an #N900!!' Nov 19 09:51:43 This week is pretty much over. Nov 19 09:51:46 damnit, should have gone to copenhagen Nov 19 09:51:53 Stskeeps: want more?? Nov 19 09:52:06 I don't expect it to ship before mid next week. Nov 19 09:52:13 do you plan to build yourself a home using n900 as bricks or what Nov 19 09:52:19 ;) Nov 19 09:52:21 viq: seems the boat's tour from korea to the states is quicker, than the tour to europe Nov 19 09:52:33 viq: ...hmm... when looking at the globe it indeed could be. Nov 19 09:52:42 Stskeeps: Oh Nov 19 09:52:45 javispedro: i turn the n900s back into crazy men and use them as slaves around the house Nov 19 09:52:53 Stskeeps:What do you need the second one for? Nov 19 09:53:02 see above :) Nov 19 09:53:07 tbf: hehe Nov 19 09:53:23 I might buy an extra BL-5J battery. Nov 19 09:53:26 Umgh Nov 19 09:53:32 Then I can starte at the battery until I get the N900 Nov 19 09:53:36 content!! freedom of expression! open source!!!! open ended!!!!!!!!! Nov 19 09:53:54 alterego: ain't you going to get closer with that battery? Nov 19 09:54:14 I mean, "stare" does not sound involved enough Nov 19 09:54:31 hEH Nov 19 09:54:59 hmm. someone here used maemo5sdk virtual image? Nov 19 09:55:08 * javispedro loves the "menacing but cute" n900 look on the maemoproject ad Nov 19 09:55:23 i wonder if sliding the keyboard out and in by itself means the n900 is angry. Nov 19 09:55:36 "European Keyboard Layout Protest" thread...yummy Nov 19 09:55:39 * RST38h gets the popcorn Nov 19 09:55:52 RST38h: cursor keys Nov 19 09:55:54 probably Nov 19 09:56:19 alterego: I wish if that would be true... 'Great, so the Polish are stealing all the N900's :P' Nov 19 09:56:40 Sts: but of course. Nov 19 09:57:04 Are there any old forum members left there? Nov 19 09:57:11 All I see is Sep-Nov 2009 Nov 19 09:57:33 waiting for the storm to blow over Nov 19 09:57:45 Will it ever though? =( Nov 19 09:57:51 soon enough.. Nov 19 09:57:52 eternal september Nov 19 09:57:52 :P Nov 19 09:58:50 GuySoft: is it normal that maemo5sdk do not display textinputs/checkboxes? Nov 19 09:58:59 sorry GuySoft Nov 19 09:59:04 all: is it normal that maemo5sdk do not display textinputs/checkboxes? Nov 19 09:59:54 is there a zenity type command for maemo 5? Nov 19 10:00:01 dunno for gtkcheckboxes, but it displays HildonCheckButtons fine. Nov 19 10:00:21 seems like some people are getting shipping confirmation Nov 19 10:01:22 Damn Polish :P Nov 19 10:01:36 alterego: shutup please ;D Nov 19 10:01:37 yeaj Nov 19 10:01:45 the fansites are all over it Nov 19 10:01:46 Heh Nov 19 10:01:54 alterego: I am from Poland and waits over week for DDP device Nov 19 10:02:06 Dhould have ordered it sooner :P Nov 19 10:02:10 ~Shoulod .. Nov 19 10:02:10 you waited just a week? I'm still waiting! Nov 19 10:02:14 ;) Nov 19 10:02:21 javispedro: http://marcin.juszkiewicz.com.pl/tmp/nokia1.jpg Nov 19 10:02:28 javispedro: I am waiting still Nov 19 10:02:36 heh, if you think n900 is expensive.. we recently got "multimedia tax" in denmark, which means a tax on internet connected devices. one of the shops that companies use to avoid this tax, charges 1999 usd for a iphone 3gs, - and it is even only borrowed :P Nov 19 10:02:41 hrw: clearly, something is wrong Nov 19 10:02:43 javispedro: that screenshot is from official maemo5sdk virtualimage Nov 19 10:02:47 hrw: yeah, noone recieved it Nov 19 10:02:54 javispedro: question is what.. Nov 19 10:03:13 wazd o/ Nov 19 10:03:23 heya all :) Nov 19 10:03:52 Has anyone named their N900 yet? Nov 19 10:04:02 Marlin Nov 19 10:04:17 hehe, just kidding :P Nov 19 10:04:23 Craom Nov 19 10:04:34 I mean crap, what is wrong with my typing today. Nov 19 10:04:52 RST38h: yep. But i guess i'd need more money if i had children, not if i had a wife. Nov 19 10:05:14 riight. Nov 19 10:05:15 :P Nov 19 10:06:21 RST38h: in fact i have 2 jobs. I work part-time as an embedded developer and part-time as a university tutor. Nov 19 10:09:31 Paul: Still, the question remains: are you creating anything new? Nov 19 10:10:34 Paul: Let us say, a guy designing engine blades for the RRJ will see that plane flying and he can point and say: I designed part of that. Nov 19 10:10:42 hi Nov 19 10:11:16 inside sbox, trying to connect to my host pulseaudio i get pulsesink0: Failed to connect: Connection terminated Nov 19 10:11:21 RST38h: "new" is a relative term. Nov 19 10:11:21 Paul: Can you do something similar? Nov 19 10:11:40 Lynoure: Well, something that a lot of other people will use Nov 19 10:11:43 i configured host to run PA in daemon mode and copied the pulse cookie in sbox Nov 19 10:11:54 Somethignn that did not exist before Nov 19 10:12:10 RST38h: those two things are very separate Nov 19 10:12:43 Lyonoure: Let us apply an OR here Nov 19 10:12:47 One can create something new that only a small set of people have use for. And many things a lot of people will use are just reinvention and glue. Nov 19 10:12:49 and something like that is quite rare Nov 19 10:13:02 Lynoure: indeed Nov 19 10:13:19 philn-tp, sounds bad :) Nov 19 10:13:21 either case Nov 19 10:13:31 zaheerm-lp: hahaha :) Nov 19 10:13:54 philn-tp, you using fremantle, diablo or other target in sbox? Nov 19 10:14:07 philn-tp, x86 or armel emu in sbox? Nov 19 10:14:11 zaheerm-lp: fremantle, i think Nov 19 10:14:12 x86 Nov 19 10:15:35 RST38h: nope, i do not create anything really new, just gluing things together like Lynoure says. But i do not think it's important either, to me it's more important to help people, read books, listen to the music etc. Not everyone was born to be a great scientist or an inventor and that's ok. Nov 19 10:15:55 >/win 2 Nov 19 10:16:00 * Lynoure is currently working on something a lot of people will use. Not new, and plenty of glue. And soon something more new that a tiny group of people will use. Nov 19 10:16:06 doh Nov 19 10:16:14 * javispedro is not working on creating anything Nov 19 10:16:18 philn-tp, try stracing i think... Nov 19 10:16:18 :) Nov 19 10:16:32 zaheerm-lp: the PA port mentionned there seems wrong http://maemo.org/development/sdks/maemo_5_examples/ .. or my PA is not correctly listening on tcp Nov 19 10:17:04 Paul: Among people working on something like an RRJ or a new Medfield chip or an N900, there is just a few of great inventors Nov 19 10:17:11 (non-surprisingly the latter is for Maemo5 :) ) Nov 19 10:17:33 Paul: Yet, they can all point to something in the real world and say "I have helped to build that" Nov 19 10:18:16 I can just point at software and say that... nothing in real world. Nov 19 10:18:16 Paul: Returning to the initial topic, there are very few companies in Russia whose employees can say something like that Nov 19 10:18:28 philn-tp, so yah in sbox i have same problem Nov 19 10:18:33 Paul: And most of them are offices of foreign corporations, i.e. "evil" Nov 19 10:19:06 philn-tp, i have none running inside my sbox, so autoaudiosink will use alsasink which will use the host's pulse's alsa emulation :) Nov 19 10:19:29 Paul: And yes, THAT is one of the causes of the brain drain, in addition to lower salaries and generally lower living standards when compared to the West Nov 19 10:19:34 zaheerm-lp: yes but i need to use pulsesink :/ Nov 19 10:20:13 * javispedro wonders if I just traveled to the nineties Nov 19 10:20:31 philn-tp, you need to? Nov 19 10:20:53 zaheerm-lp: yes... to debug something Nov 19 10:21:10 oh, the N900 has an AMOLED screen! Nov 19 10:21:16 RST38h: if i make a patch that hits mainline and 10k of FR owners use it, that'll be good. I can show it to somebody and boast. But even if i helped a single person with enjoying his device more, that's already an achivement. I think being a good human is more important than being involved in developing something widely deployed. Nov 19 10:22:08 Paul: Maybe. But what is the probability of you seeing another guy with a Freerunner on the subway, let us say? Nov 19 10:22:11 I'm more interested in making the device do what I want it to do, if people find that useful, then great. Nov 19 10:22:36 If someone comes up with an idea, something they want it to do and are not capable of doing it, then that's a good place to start too. Nov 19 10:22:54 anyone here syncing N900 with calendar on their Linux machine? Nov 19 10:23:08 with any application conbination whatsoever Nov 19 10:23:20 does it sync with anything other than windows pc suite? Nov 19 10:23:59 Does the Mail for Exchange stuff not sync? :) Nov 19 10:24:35 there are some bugs. Nov 19 10:24:38 javispedro: google has Exchange service Nov 19 10:24:47 it worked fine for google calendar for me Nov 19 10:24:50 alterego, depends with what you want to sync. Nov 19 10:25:06 what sucks is that it can contain just one sync account at a time it appears Nov 19 10:25:10 I guess the sync stuff is mostly open, with the calendar backend being e-d-s? Nov 19 10:25:16 thus I cannot use it for google and work stuff at the same time Nov 19 10:25:28 epa_: keep me in the loop Nov 19 10:25:29 N900<->Exchange<->Evolution ^.^ Nov 19 10:25:39 tried syncvolution Nov 19 10:25:54 alterego: sounds awful and datalossy :P Nov 19 10:25:59 and obex Nov 19 10:26:01 :) Nov 19 10:26:04 and gnokii Nov 19 10:26:12 I'd personally, probably just rsync the database. Nov 19 10:26:32 bah. I'd like to write an evo sync plugin Nov 19 10:26:40 javispedro: *nod* Nov 19 10:26:40 naaative Nov 19 10:26:46 noithing that goes through exchange. Nov 19 10:26:58 RST38h: (probability) it depends. And it doesn't matter actually, imho. Nov 19 10:27:04 zaheerm-lp: maybe my host PA is not compatible with sbox pulsesink :/ Nov 19 10:27:05 can we work this into Hermes? Nov 19 10:27:15 omg... someone asked at t.m.o if n900 will support silverlight... Nov 19 10:27:18 hermes? hermes is contacts. Nov 19 10:27:26 Paul: But then, you have no idea if people actually use what you have created Nov 19 10:27:39 I can't use outlook with N900 because device does not have encrypted storage for certificates. Nov 19 10:27:46 Speaking of syncing, there is free edition of zimbra that claims mobile device sync, I wonder if that would work for nokia Nov 19 10:27:51 Paul: So, having more people use your stuff, and having more different people use it, actually helps feeling the feedback Nov 19 10:28:05 I guess it's just a matter of writing a sync daemon on n900 using C++ calendar api, Nov 19 10:28:08 epa_: and passphrase on private key isn't good enough? Nov 19 10:28:09 then a opensync plugin Nov 19 10:28:12 So I'd have to sync calendar from my linux phone. Nov 19 10:28:15 et voilà! Nov 19 10:28:31 Stskeeps: not for our policy on mobile devices. Nov 19 10:28:47 lovely Nov 19 10:28:55 have to wait for m6 then Nov 19 10:29:19 CoreFusion-, actually, Microsoft announced something along those lines at some point. Nov 19 10:29:23 Stskeeps: or m7 m8 .... *sigh* Nov 19 10:29:47 Good Morning Nov 19 10:30:13 Oh, yeah, speaking of - I wonder if it will be possible to get full disk encryption on n900 Nov 19 10:30:19 dm-crypt or the like Nov 19 10:30:26 RST38h: lots of people gave feedback about poor GPS performance to Nokia. Not that it changed anything. No engineer that actually designed the gps part was involved. No software author was involved. Nobody cared. Read the ticket, it's really that awful. Nokia employees claiming "we checked our code, it's bug free; if you have any questions ask nokia customer care" and proposing to use agps instead. Nov 19 10:30:35 (talking about n810 here) Nov 19 10:31:03 that said, n810 with agps isn't half bad. Nov 19 10:31:17 Stskeeps: sure, provided you have the internet access there Nov 19 10:31:18 Paul: That is mainly because the TI5300 chip is AGPS, not GPS and it does not work well without the A- Nov 19 10:31:20 considering that the n900 without agps sucks too, I'd even say it's a hw bug. Nov 19 10:31:38 Paul: Please note that these evil Nokia employees eventually provided a solution inDiablo Nov 19 10:31:38 RST38h: i'm not sure that's true, it should work without A as well. Nov 19 10:31:40 Christ, another one, really? Nov 19 10:31:42 GeneralAntilles: That is very interesting Nov 19 10:31:58 RST38h: a solution == beta AGPS binary daemon? Nov 19 10:32:01 Paul: Which you can install from Extras and GPS starts working way better Nov 19 10:32:07 Yes. Nov 19 10:32:13 Jaffa, was checking if anybody else had the volume rocker working with qwerty12's FBReader. Nov 19 10:32:22 Jaffa, but he provided a libzlib later that made it work. Nov 19 10:32:36 RST38h: provided you have the internet access at the moment you need the fix. Not exactly common when you're hiking e.g. Nov 19 10:32:43 Paul: Why do you think it should work well without the A-? Nov 19 10:32:48 GeneralAntilles: ... a libzlib that makes the volume rocker work?! Nov 19 10:32:52 re Nov 19 10:32:59 Paul: That is why it is A- Nov 19 10:33:19 Paul: But an extra BT GPS receiver will only cost you $50-$60 Nov 19 10:33:28 uh, because it's a computer Nov 19 10:33:32 http://qwerty12.qole.org/libzlibrary_0.10.7-1_armel.deb http://qwerty12.qole.org/fbreader_0.10.7-1_armel.deb Nov 19 10:33:36 I have got one, just in case, even before I got N810 Nov 19 10:33:40 RST38h: no, external BT GPS is closed! Nov 19 10:33:41 RST38h: and lots of battery life Nov 19 10:33:52 Egads, Engadget turned the whole first page into a header. Nov 19 10:33:53 javis: you can't even imagine... Nov 19 10:33:54 RST38h: i feel false reasoning here. A means it can get ephemeris (and almanac) from the SoC, just that. It doesn't mean it should have poor sensitivity or something. Nov 19 10:34:02 viq: ~12 hours non stop Nov 19 10:34:05 javispedro: on Fremantle? Nov 19 10:34:05 no respectable computer needs to call home to do arithmetic :P Nov 19 10:34:13 GeneralAntilles: wonderful. My ebook reader's screen died last night, so I had to install fbreader on the n900 this morning :-) Nov 19 10:34:18 javis: no power button, no reset, batteries can't be removed Nov 19 10:34:23 lardman: talking about the actual receiver ;) Nov 19 10:34:33 ah ok Nov 19 10:34:35 RST38h: no - there are many AGPSs that work just fine when they have no net connection. Nov 19 10:34:48 hola, anyone has ever tried to make puredata anywhere running on the n900? having probs with pulseaudio :( Nov 19 10:34:49 Paul: False reasoning is saying that it "should" work wqithout A- and not backing this up Nov 19 10:34:50 RST38h: it's not impossible that the GPS device isn't being used optimally. Nov 19 10:35:01 SpeedEvil++ Nov 19 10:35:18 RST38h: In that most AGPSs - and all GPS chipsets with AGPS that I've ever seen - can do fixes on their own. Nov 19 10:35:25 all hardware GPS chipsets Nov 19 10:35:28 RST38h: but nokia employees claim their code is literally "bug free". Can that be considered honest? Nov 19 10:35:30 They just take longer. Nov 19 10:35:37 and that's the issue here. Nov 19 10:35:49 that without AGPS the damn thing takes minutes to get a fix. Nov 19 10:35:52 PaulFertser: the code probably comes from Ti for the chipset Nov 19 10:36:01 They can do fix without assist, it just takes couple minutes to half an hour. But if you do try to get a fix not long after not too far from there it's very fast if the data is saved Nov 19 10:36:03 lardman: so nokia guys can't claim it's bugfree. Nov 19 10:36:14 lardman: yet they do Nov 19 10:36:19 true, who did? Nov 19 10:36:28 lardman: let me find the evidence, moment. Nov 19 10:36:50 lardman: however - the reported fact that there is no daemon for a software GPS, and the device outputs NMEA would indicate that it's not really a driver issue, more a usage issue. Nov 19 10:37:08 lardman: many AGPSs if you screw up the AGPS data won't actually lock. Nov 19 10:38:03 * SpeedEvil checks again for shipping notification. Nov 19 10:38:11 :/ Nov 19 10:39:04 I think it's going to ship real soon now. Nov 19 10:39:04 philn-tp, you can always try git gst...but i very much doubt that Nov 19 10:39:07 (TM) Nov 19 10:39:38 Paul: All Nokia employees claim is that they have done all they could Nov 19 10:39:52 zaheerm-lp: i can't do that either :( Nov 19 10:40:07 Paul: Yes, ti5300 *can* get a lock in non-assisted mode. It takes 3-10 minutes. Nov 19 10:40:09 lardman: - The Location team has gone through these issues and doesn't think that Nov 19 10:40:09 long timings are caused by bugs in gpsd or the closed components Nov 19 10:40:09 developed by Nokia. Nov 19 10:40:16 lardman: https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=2878#c57 Nov 19 10:40:27 Bug 2878: Very poor satellite acquisition with internal GPS Nov 19 10:40:57 oh yeah Nov 19 10:41:01 RST38h: is it a documented behaviour? Nov 19 10:41:31 reading that made me want to bang my head on the wall Nov 19 10:42:00 lardman: so if you read the ticket in question you'll see that several _very_ experienced guys asked nokia about details to verify that software bugs do not contribute to it. Nokia ignored the specific questions and proposed agps as well. Nov 19 10:42:03 In assisted mode, it takes 40 seconds to 2 minutes Nov 19 10:42:28 Paul: Sorry but how do you know poor acquisition time is caused by gpsd bugs? Nov 19 10:42:28 Flandry: yeah, i had a similar senstation after reading all the posts there. It was highly disappointing. Nov 19 10:42:37 well, Nokia doesn't employ idiots of that's what you think. I can believe they reviewed the code. Nov 19 10:42:38 RST38h: how do you know it's not? Nov 19 10:42:41 s/of/if Nov 19 10:42:50 Paul: I do not know either way Nov 19 10:42:53 javispedro: i can't believe they claimed it's bug free. Nov 19 10:42:55 But I have not made any statements about it Nov 19 10:43:01 You did. So how do you know? Nov 19 10:43:23 PaulFertser: they claimed they reviewed the code and didn't find issues. I think that's a pretty sane thing to say. Nov 19 10:43:27 RST38h: i'm not making statements that their code is buggy. I just say that they were asked to provide details and refused claiming there's no bugs in there. Nov 19 10:44:04 javispedro: not when you're asked a specific question like the one posed on the tracker. In fact this particular ticket says a lot about how well nokia "cares" about the customer. Nov 19 10:44:09 Similar long-lock issues without AGPS have been caused on other GPSs by getting the assist data stored slightly wrong. Nov 19 10:44:45 the assist data is stored fine. the gps gets a lock quickly if you shut it down then power it on after a 5 minute wait Nov 19 10:44:46 Paul: They refused because the code is closed Nov 19 10:44:54 s/similar// Nov 19 10:45:19 the issue is when you try to get a lock when more than three or so days have passed since latest lock Nov 19 10:45:27 Paul: Revealing this code would lead to violation of their NDA and their eventual dismissal Nov 19 10:46:09 PaulFertser: so. a bug report is opened about poor performance. Nokia reviews the gpsdriver code and says they do not thing it is a bug there, and believe it's a hw issue. You complain Nokia doesn't care about customers. Nov 19 10:46:14 You really want some poor Nokia sod dismissed just so that you could see gpsd sources? Nov 19 10:46:27 RST38h: they could reveal the details about how that code works. They could have added debug printfs. They could do a lot without violating NDA. But they ignored the numerous requests to add some debugging. How can you justify that? Nov 19 10:46:49 And they have actually done some of that Nov 19 10:46:53 javispedro: exactly. Why didn't they add some debugging info so everyone can see that's really a HW issue? Nov 19 10:46:59 But they do not HAVE to do it. Nov 19 10:47:10 RST38h: that's what an honest dev supposed to do. Nov 19 10:47:14 This is not their job to reveal details to you. They have signed their NDAs. Nov 19 10:47:28 Paul: Not really. Honest developer is supposed ot do his job well Nov 19 10:47:39 Their job is software development not customer relations Nov 19 10:48:01 PaulFertser: probably because TI wants to hide how much work is done on software and a useful debug dump would reveal that. Nov 19 10:48:04 Now, if you would like ot claim they made some mistakes in their code, you can Nov 19 10:48:05 javispedro: in fact they never confirmed that's a hardware issue! Nov 19 10:48:24 But you cannot require them to disclose stuff to you Nov 19 10:48:53 javis: More likely, they would like to hide their processing algorithms Nov 19 10:49:16 RST38h: how can one diagnose the problem without any debugging information? It's just impossible. And in the end they neither confirmed nor denied that's a hardware issue. Nov 19 10:49:20 javis: Do not want to create advantage for someone else Nov 19 10:49:36 Paul: Have you been asked to diagnose this problem? Nov 19 10:50:01 sorry, phone call Nov 19 10:50:25 RST38h: they said they can't reproduce the problem. So reviewing the code might be not enough. You know that plenty of bugs pass the review and only after being exposed to some particular conditions, the bug surfaces. Nov 19 10:50:35 RST38h: they never said they reproduced the issue. Nov 19 10:50:45 So i claim that without reproducing their review worth nothing. Nov 19 10:50:56 I think that's a reasonable thing to claim. Nov 19 10:51:49 PaulFertser: "The Location team has gone through these issues..." Nov 19 10:51:59 PaulFertser: ok, so I was part of that bug, and that doesn't rule out the possibility that Ti provided a binary blob or perhaps source to perform the calcs Nov 19 10:52:15 anyway, is nitpicking, the performance is crap Nov 19 10:52:26 the most likely issue i've seen is that timezones weren't set up right Nov 19 10:52:28 javispedro: i guess Quim Gil could have used "has gone" meaning they evaluated, not reproduced. Nov 19 10:52:30 As to IP - and blobs - someone reported that GPS does not have a daemon when active that uses several percent of CPU Nov 19 10:52:33 what performance are you guys taling about, gps+ Nov 19 10:52:49 which meant the time on device was not right and hence gpsdriver got confused Nov 19 10:52:51 Which would imply there is no significant binary blob on the host side. Nov 19 10:53:15 Core: N810 GPS Nov 19 10:53:23 Argh Nov 19 10:53:28 hmm, I think we concluded that it probably does though from a disassembly of the code Nov 19 10:53:34 please ignore most of what I've said - I thought it was n900 gps Nov 19 10:53:35 Core: PaulFertser is claiming that evil Nokia is hiding gpsd bugs from us Nov 19 10:53:35 RST38h: Oh, well that surely is poor Nov 19 10:53:43 (that was being discussed) Nov 19 10:53:46 By not making the code open source Nov 19 10:53:47 RST38h: not gpsd, gpsdriver Nov 19 10:53:49 lardman: nobody from nokia admitted that anyway. If it was the case, and nokia honestly told the customers that they have no idea what to do with TI's binary blob, i'd say: good, i see nokia is honest with their customers. Nov 19 10:53:53 gpsdriver, ok Nov 19 10:54:18 PaulFertser: well the other explanation is that the aerial is poorly positioned Nov 19 10:54:33 i do not think TI gave them a binary blob, but rather source code. Nov 19 10:54:42 lardman: what i care here is honesty, not performance... Nov 19 10:54:46 I don;t know, we should just reverse engineer gpsdriver and then we can look at the raw data Nov 19 10:55:09 javispedro: Though not a very similar case, openmoko got handed a binary blob and no source. (but they were only oedering several thousand) Nov 19 10:55:13 I claim that nokia is dishonest and the way this bug was dealt with confirms that. Nov 19 10:55:26 heh, dishonesty exists in oss too Nov 19 10:55:32 SpeedEvil: if you're talking about calypso, that's partially wrong. Nov 19 10:55:34 life's not black and white Nov 19 10:55:46 PaulFertser: no - gta01 - hammerhead - gllin Nov 19 10:55:47 SpeedEvil: OM has part of calypso source and a way to compile it along with blobs. Nov 19 10:55:50 PaulFertser: You really expect complete openness from a company that big? Nov 19 10:55:51 SpeedEvil: ah, ok. Nov 19 10:55:51 SpeedEvil: the are certain references in the changelog that they were able to tune certain parameters. I don't know if that means fully source drop but... Nov 19 10:55:58 s/the are/there are Nov 19 10:56:09 CoreFusion-: not complete openness. But just being honest on bugtracker. Nov 19 10:56:22 javispedro: yeah accuracy/speed trade-offs iirc Nov 19 10:56:29 and 2D vs 3D stuff Nov 19 10:56:43 PaulFertser: big step up they even have one though Nov 19 10:56:45 lardman: and lock times vs initial lock accuracy Nov 19 10:56:50 yep Nov 19 10:57:09 SpeedEvil: I'm guessing you were right originally and the decoding is done on the arm Nov 19 10:57:16 at least on N810. Nov 19 10:57:20 yeah Nov 19 10:57:31 I've not looked on the N900 Nov 19 10:57:35 Stskeeps: having a bugtracker is a big step? Sounds a bit like a joke. ;) Nov 19 10:57:35 bbiab Nov 19 10:57:43 we found Pi as single precision fp constants, etc. Nov 19 10:57:50 all stored on the gpsdriver binary Nov 19 10:58:02 lardman: Unless I don't get a n900, I'm unlikely to get a 810 Nov 19 10:58:13 (and only then if I can find one cheap) Nov 19 10:58:23 I can sell you one :P Nov 19 10:58:43 javispedro: got some specifics on problematic stuff you've found? Nov 19 10:58:59 say hi Nov 19 10:59:01 CoreFusion-: I want to see if I get rejected for a n900. (voucher stacked - so paid ~50%) Nov 19 10:59:02 Stskeeps: what you mean? Nov 19 10:59:10 javispedro: well, non-fixed stuff in gpsdriver Nov 19 10:59:31 Stskeeps: i'm not the one complaining :) Nov 19 10:59:51 Did anyone else get the impression that they're going to do a discount programme for the next maemo device? Nov 19 10:59:51 javispedro: and that's why i'm asking you about constructive information :) Nov 19 10:59:52 even though my gripe with it is long cold fix times Nov 19 11:00:28 lardman: the most convincing thing to me is the percentage of CPU is more or less identical to that used on the GTA01 openmoko - which had a (largely) software GPS. Nov 19 11:03:50 Is the source available for the auto-builder? Nov 19 11:08:18 the auto-builder is basically sbox + sdk + sbdmock Nov 19 11:08:20 afaik. Nov 19 11:10:44 Has no one ported gtkglext? Nov 19 11:14:09 jeez! Is there any option to bring back old Engadget style? Nov 19 11:15:14 wazd: use lynx Nov 19 11:16:05 it's so godawful Nov 19 11:16:18 engadget, not lynx :D Nov 19 11:18:32 wazd: Google reader saves the day Nov 19 11:23:45 god damn it... dac blocked Nov 19 11:26:40 can i uninstall stuff with dpkg using wildcards? Nov 19 11:26:49 ie. something like dpkg -r blaa* Nov 19 11:26:53 yes Nov 19 11:27:18 of more exactly the shell will expand that * Nov 19 11:27:31 dpkg will see a list of the items Nov 19 11:28:03 SpeedEvil: ok Nov 19 11:28:14 hmm, it just says 'dkpg: you must specify packages by their own names, not by quoting the names of the files they come in' Nov 19 11:28:27 Stskeeps: re GPS sw, it's more wondering if they did as good as job as possible on it Nov 19 11:29:37 hmm, changed dir to where there are no debs with that start (filenames) and now it says 'warning: ignoring request to remove blaa* which isn't installed. Nov 19 11:29:38 and that does also lead onto opening the code up so we could feed it our own ephemerides Nov 19 11:29:38 ahh Nov 19 11:29:41 uninstall.. Nov 19 11:29:47 doh I just read isntall Nov 19 11:29:49 even tho listing blaa* gives a long list Nov 19 11:29:53 ah oh =) Nov 19 11:30:16 lardman: luke-jr keeps on suggesting abstracting away the TI code Nov 19 11:30:22 it should still work Nov 19 11:30:32 you need to quote it Nov 19 11:30:52 Stskeeps: well re-writing yeah would open it, but probably a bit of an involved job - what does SpeedEvil think, it's his field? Nov 19 11:31:00 dpkg -r ä Nov 19 11:31:02 argh Nov 19 11:31:06 dpkg -r '*foo*' Nov 19 11:31:41 nope, doesn't work =/ Nov 19 11:32:40 dpkg -r `dpkg -l | grep foo` Nov 19 11:33:44 ..and some cutting to that ; Nov 19 11:33:45 ) Nov 19 11:33:51 goddamn my keyboard lags Nov 19 11:34:21 pyhimys: thank you kind sir. that did it =) Nov 19 11:40:55 Crap, I left my ext HDD with all my maemo stuff at home so I can't upload these new packages to extras-devel :( Nov 19 11:50:27 well Nov 19 11:50:46 the rollout of the n900 is a little bit of a farce now :) Nov 19 11:51:20 what with the london flagship store tweeting that it was selling them today, then deleting it... Nov 19 11:51:21 ... Nov 19 11:52:18 I mean, the delays were annoying, but why would you announce you were selling something unless you had it in store. I suspect something else is going on Nov 19 11:52:25 but I can't work out what that might me Nov 19 11:52:27 be Nov 19 11:52:42 GAN900: you about? Nov 19 11:52:43 "delays" Nov 19 11:52:47 Think I might setup some kind of local repository in my scratchbox installation for all this junk. Nov 19 11:52:59 bobbyd: yes, plenty of discussions about that on talk.maemo.org Nov 19 11:52:59 :P Nov 19 11:53:22 anyway, I got squeezeplay to work un der the Nov 19 11:53:24 sdk Nov 19 11:53:39 but I think the license means you can't distribute it Nov 19 11:54:00 so I suppose the only option would be to downlod the source and compile on each n900 Nov 19 11:54:09 Heh Nov 19 11:54:47 Or make "highly unofficial" repo ;) Nov 19 11:56:12 Is it possible to swith between 3G and WLAN without loosing your connection? Nov 19 11:56:23 kik2k0: no, not realy. Nov 19 11:56:27 kik2k0: define "connection" Nov 19 11:56:36 I was contemplating some kind of screeen for network connections. Nov 19 11:56:39 viq: like a SSH-session Nov 19 11:56:45 then no Nov 19 11:56:45 alterego: ok Nov 19 11:57:01 ok, thanks Nov 19 11:57:33 I was thinking of implementing a local proxy, that uses autossh to proxy connections to a remote host and maintain state. Nov 19 11:57:39 in theory if were to use a loopback address and switch the network connection extremly fast Nov 19 11:57:40 kik2k0: if you want more technical details - your IP would change, so TCP connection would break. Nov 19 11:57:51 So you can move between internet connections and always maintain your open sockets. Nov 19 11:58:24 viq: yeah, didnt think about that Nov 19 11:59:08 If it's not been built, I think I'll do that, kind of like screen but for network connections. Nov 19 11:59:45 alterego: if you used something like openvpn, maybe that could work Nov 19 11:59:51 would be really nice if it could move between 3G and WLAN like that Nov 19 12:00:11 Yeah, didn't think about VPN Nov 19 12:00:35 And openvpn has the advantage of not encapsulating tcp in tcp Nov 19 12:01:50 I think I might still develop my SSH SOCKS5 implementation, Nov 19 12:02:09 Couple of ruby scripts. no problem :) Nov 19 12:03:02 GeneralAntilles: Ah, rioght Nov 19 12:05:19 lardman: rewriting from scratch given full specs is a not-too-horrible job. Nov 19 12:05:44 lardman: reverse engineering those specs is going to be nasty. Nov 19 12:06:47 SpeedEvil: it looked like most of the code was contained in a few functions, which is far nicer than other things I've looked at Nov 19 12:07:05 make it easier to work out how it works anyway Nov 19 12:07:14 but tbh I have better things to do with my time atm Nov 19 12:07:31 lardman: yeah - the hard parts aren't really the position determination bit. Nov 19 12:07:43 lardman: Or even the orbital calcs. Nov 19 12:08:00 lardman: those are all nicely documented and stuff, and not too bad to implement. Nov 19 12:08:27 well I guess the input and output shouldn't be too bad though Nov 19 12:08:29 lardman: the nasty part is working out how the radio hardware is driven, what the parameters for it are, and what format the signals come back in Nov 19 12:08:38 yeah Nov 19 12:08:50 easy enough to find where, just not what Nov 19 12:09:45 lardman: the recieving part is where the complexity arises - it can be really quite complex to setup the reciever to pick up each satellite. Nov 19 12:09:54 Especially if you want good lock performance. Nov 19 12:10:01 ok Nov 19 12:11:29 To make an analogy - FM radio is more-or-less a keyboard just entering values. You open it, turn it to the right frequency, and you get data. GPS signal acquisition is more like image processing, picking faeces out of a crowd. Nov 19 12:29:33 GeneralAntilles: you were asking about articles... Nov 19 12:29:50 http://www.webwizardry.net/~timeless/164.html (it doesn't belong on that server, but viper isn't serving atm) Nov 19 12:32:01 timeless_mbp: cute Nov 19 12:32:13 mzz: thanks Nov 19 12:32:17 it needs art Nov 19 12:32:32 the article is old (see comment at top of file for original content) Nov 19 12:32:36 speaking of art, I have a .ico file to decipher Nov 19 12:32:50 you do indeed! Nov 19 12:39:31 oom-killer image: http://image.gihyo.co.jp/assets/images/dev/serial/01/sc-literacy/0016/01.jpg Nov 19 12:46:24 mzz: hey, got a picture of the doom for process killing? Nov 19 12:46:55 * timeless_mbp thinks it's resourcefork.com -- psDoom Nov 19 12:47:49 http://www.emezeta.com/weblog/psdoom.png Nov 19 12:50:27 ok. art added Nov 19 12:50:36 i just need to find out when viper will come back up Nov 19 12:50:42 i still have some monkeys which need art iirc Nov 19 12:57:17 timeless_mbp: your .ico bug is https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=581838 which is really a two-parter: the ico loader should not throw away the entire ico if it chokes on one of the images in it, and it should actually support png images. Nov 19 12:57:18 Bug 581838: was not found. Nov 19 12:57:34 I'll see if I can cook up a patch Nov 19 12:57:59 feel free to attach our icon Nov 19 12:58:07 it's hardly private with a couple hundred people having copies :) Nov 19 12:58:40 and thanks Nov 19 12:59:24 no prob, I don't mind this kind of prodding, although I don't know if the gdk-pixbuf patch will be fun Nov 19 12:59:38 I actually have pure python ico and png file format parsers around for no particularly good reason Nov 19 13:04:36 lol Nov 19 13:04:45 N900 going to get Global portrait or is that for maemo 6? Nov 19 13:05:40 iDialekt: 'global' doesn't make sense for any project Nov 19 13:05:52 each app needs to be designed or augmented to support portrait Nov 19 13:06:02 the browser should get portrait in the first service release Nov 19 13:06:03 http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/11/19/paralysis_ray_blue_victime/ Nov 19 13:06:12 Oh Nov 19 13:06:13 and it's likely that a number of other major apps will get portrait mode Nov 19 13:06:20 "Many [of the test subjects] lived through the paralyze-unparalyze cycle", report the boffins. Nov 19 13:06:27 however, even though it'd be nice to have a portrait calculator, i wouldn't expect to see it Nov 19 13:06:28 wouldnt be surprised that maemo 5 doesnt get portrait support for the desktop(s) Nov 19 13:06:36 What about certain points of the os itself? Nov 19 13:06:42 the os? Nov 19 13:06:44 you mean X11? Nov 19 13:06:48 or dbus? Nov 19 13:06:50 or gconf? Nov 19 13:06:52 or ... ? Nov 19 13:06:54 :( Nov 19 13:06:55 what's an OS? Nov 19 13:07:01 Sorry Nov 19 13:07:12 * iDialekt gets shut down Nov 19 13:07:20 i haven't heard of plans to make the switcher rotate Nov 19 13:07:33 it's probably doable, and i could be out of the loop Nov 19 13:07:41 switcher? Nov 19 13:07:50 aSIMULAter would probably know but probably couldn't speak to it unless it was already public knowledge somewhere Nov 19 13:08:08 aSIMULAter: speaking of which, visit sp3000 and ask his roommate to trade your device for an English one Nov 19 13:08:26 Who's grabbing an n900 anyway! Nov 19 13:08:38 switcher is probably officially "Dashboard" Nov 19 13:08:41 Anyone got one? In the USA? Nov 19 13:08:42 (like that helps any) Nov 19 13:09:30 iDialekt: nobody has an N900 here. nothing to see. Nov 19 13:09:44 be on your way now. Nov 19 13:10:15 RST38h: hush Nov 19 13:10:45 auenf: How are you by the way? Nov 19 13:10:53 not bad, you? Nov 19 13:11:32 http://www.allaboutsymbian.com/news/item/10754_Move_over_heavy_handed_Apple-w.php Nov 19 13:11:40 grr, stupid ancient nonextendable file formats that get extended anyway Nov 19 13:11:47 Steve Litchfield meets Nokia Ovi Nov 19 13:11:52 Pretty good. Seeing as im trying to return to nokia in some shape Nov 19 13:12:02 Does not like it, says the store has too many applications Nov 19 13:16:11 I don't agree with the author of that article. Nov 19 13:16:20 choice is good. If you can't decide that's your problem >.> Nov 19 13:16:32 he wants a psion Nov 19 13:17:24 Of course he does Nov 19 13:17:29 who does Nov 19 13:17:43 Shapeshifter: The problem is not with the choice, it is with the appstore model Nov 19 13:18:10 Shapeshifter: if you concentrate so much stuff at one spot, it naturally becomes difficult to present to customers and even to search Nov 19 13:18:41 RST38h: possibly. But he suggests radical QA to prevent most app of being released Nov 19 13:18:58 If you just let people write their own stuff and sell it in .sis or .deb form through their web sites, then it is all well spread with google taking care of indexing Nov 19 13:19:32 mzz: blah Nov 19 13:19:36 ico was a container format Nov 19 13:19:36 Shapeshifter: Which means that he is either trying to look iconoclastic to his reader or he is naturally stupid Nov 19 13:19:38 always has been Nov 19 13:19:42 surely it isn't hard to deal w/ Nov 19 13:19:52 ok, i'll create a .sis or .deb that formats all your drives and advertise it as flash support for the iphone Nov 19 13:20:12 What's the deal with maemo and python? I heard that some of it is in python? Nov 19 13:20:27 auenf: It is ok. A necessary risk. Nov 19 13:20:40 not for the general user Nov 19 13:20:47 auenf: "the internet" would quickly find out that your app is BS and people wouldn't install it anymore Nov 19 13:20:57 And I will not install your .sis file until I read about it and get it from a trusted source (of which can be many) Nov 19 13:20:57 it would be all over facebook, your favourite forums and whatever Nov 19 13:21:09 Exactly Nov 19 13:21:17 timeless_mbp: not that bad. The icky bit is that the contained thing doesn't have any magic bytes, so you have to rely on sanity checks (against the header from the container format) to detect unhandled contained icons (which is probably why gdk-pixbuf is failing: you can't really tell if it's a corrupt ico or an unhandled one) Nov 19 13:21:21 auenf: And you will end up up to your eyes in fecal matter Nov 19 13:21:40 Nothing personal, just the way Internet works Nov 19 13:21:53 CShadowRun: you can write maemo apps in python Nov 19 13:21:58 nice Nov 19 13:22:19 auenf: it's been like that for desktop apps for ages. Nov 19 13:22:50 thats an extreme example, but if you let people host apps anywhere, there is not quality control, a single app could seriously affect the whole device Nov 19 13:23:01 So? Nov 19 13:23:29 auenf: as long as i can call 911 :) Nov 19 13:23:44 RST38h: though I am _clearly_ against a page-by-page single-distribution system. It's the main reason I hate windows - it lacks any kind of package management, and it's what I love about linux (well, most distros). Package management is important, automatic global updates, not per-app notifiers etc. Nov 19 13:23:48 * auenf creates an app that disables 911 on timeless's phone Nov 19 13:23:58 also will disable 112 :P Nov 19 13:24:48 A repo systems has some drawbacks but it far outweights single-package installation systems imho. Nov 19 13:25:45 restricting only to app stores is one extreme Nov 19 13:25:54 s/only to app stores/only to one app store/ Nov 19 13:25:54 auenf meant: restricting only to one app store is one extreme Nov 19 13:26:06 letting installs from anywhere is the other extreme Nov 19 13:26:33 for a mobile device, more towards the former is better for the general public Nov 19 13:27:14 it's okay I think. But there could be for example a community-QA. With a couple of hundret "Trusted users" - like in maemos case for example some of the more popular devs, and additionaly a rating system where a package gets blocked once it receives 5 1-star ratings Nov 19 13:27:17 more towards the latter is desired by the 'geeks' Nov 19 13:27:28 the community, "the internet", knows best which apps are good and which are bad. Nov 19 13:27:49 QA employees could never cope with the amount of apps that could be developed. Nov 19 13:28:04 need more QA employees then Nov 19 13:28:14 no, impossible, too expensive Nov 19 13:28:42 iirc, everyone in "the community" can be QA for extras Nov 19 13:29:05 the current QAers are limited cause of limited number of devices out in the wild Nov 19 13:30:12 * RST38h always facepalms at people who honestly think they can somehow "QA" every single app on the planet, not to mention collect them all behind a simple 320x240 pixel interface Nov 19 13:30:47 Possibilities for disaster boggle the mind... Starting with the current Fremantle Extras for example Nov 19 13:33:41 hmm, fark its still hot here Nov 19 13:52:33 Nice, t3 review is out: http://www.t3.com/reviews/phones/mobile-phones/nokia-n900-review "The N900 eschews Symbian for the open-source Maemo 5 OS and despite a few gripes; it’s the best handset Nokia has produced in a long time." Nov 19 13:53:42 it that on the sales-device? Nov 19 13:54:17 I would assume so. It's either with the same firmware as the 300 dev devices had, or with the latest Nov 19 13:54:23 I like how it starts :D Nov 19 13:54:31 " Nov 19 13:54:34 there are not so many big differences between those two versions Nov 19 13:54:50 The Finns leap back into our affections Nov 19 13:55:06 "Although after 24-hours of moderate calling and texting, WiFi continually on, some browsing and photography, we needed to recharge. Cane the web and you’ll need to carry a charger around with you." Nov 19 13:55:46 CoreFusion-: :) Nov 19 13:56:17 viq: try same with mobile data, and the time is whole lot shorter. Nov 19 13:56:49 Lynoure: yeah, just quoting that article Nov 19 13:57:10 viq: yup, understood that, just wanted to share my experiences :) Nov 19 13:57:28 konttori: Compared to quite a few S60 phones, N900 is rock stable even in its current state Nov 19 13:57:32 ;) Nov 19 13:57:56 Lynoure: how much battery life do you see on cel network? Or you don't see any yet? ;) Nov 19 13:58:23 I still need to try if it drops my bt headset after 15min even with the newest fw Nov 19 13:58:49 viq: I try not to keep that on much, because it drains fast. So, never timed it. Nov 19 13:59:09 * viq nods Nov 19 13:59:10 I end up charging mine pretty much nightly. Nov 19 13:59:26 Nightly is still nice ;) Nov 19 13:59:27 Too fond of walking xmpping =) Nov 19 13:59:37 hehe Nov 19 13:59:40 http://shop.nokia.co.uk/nokia-uk/product.aspx?sku=10208380&cp=shophome&product=n900_bestsellers Estimated delivery date: week commencing 23rd November. Nov 19 14:00:23 This could be because we had an early sample Nov 19 14:00:27 so not the final unit Nov 19 14:01:20 w00t_: ^ Nov 19 14:01:32 I'm looking for a libSDL app that goes fullscreen. Any hints? SO far found only Games that don't go fullscreen anymore because of the problems Nov 19 14:01:40 * w00t_ looks? Nov 19 14:01:49 ah, yes, i got told the 23rd a few days ago Nov 19 14:01:53 i'm still very sceptical Nov 19 14:02:06 that's about the 4th date I've had from them so Nov 19 14:02:27 w00t_: I _think_ it's the first time the nokia store has actually mentioned a numeric date - rather than 'mid november' Nov 19 14:02:29 or whatever Nov 19 14:02:34 nokia.co.uk Nov 19 14:02:35 RST38h: yeah, it's surprisingly good even as a phone Nov 19 14:02:38 SpeedEvil: on the site, yes, on the phone, no Nov 19 14:02:40 Nokia here in Finland starts delivering pre-orders this friday Nov 19 14:02:43 (and via mail) Nov 19 14:02:44 Around here 23rd is also expected date Nov 19 14:02:57 but whatever Nov 19 14:03:03 if it doesn't come next week, I'll probably cancel Nov 19 14:03:08 I've done enough waiting Nov 19 14:03:12 and aims to have delivered them during next week, after that other suppliers will follow Nov 19 14:03:22 I need a phone that doesn't suck before I go away Nov 19 14:03:25 w00t_: lol Nov 19 14:03:46 don't be so childish Nov 19 14:03:57 CoreFusion-: i'm not, that's the way it is Nov 19 14:04:11 i'm going from the country soon, and i've been dealing with a broken phone for months now Nov 19 14:05:05 it's quite simple really, a product might be perfect for what i need, but if it's always available "next week", then it's no good to me Nov 19 14:05:35 Jam yesterday, jam tomorrow, but never jam today. Nov 19 14:05:36 i just don't get this "always next week" Nov 19 14:05:46 how many times has Nokia delayed this product? Nov 19 14:06:10 CoreFusion-: according to 0800 331 6021? Nov 19 14:06:12 about 4-5 times now Nov 19 14:06:41 anything else than official dates announced by Nokia doesn't mean a thing Nov 19 14:06:47 w00t_: what will you get after next week? Nov 19 14:06:48 they are nokia Nov 19 14:06:49 and that's once or twice Nov 19 14:06:54 that's the phone line for shop.nokia.co.uk Nov 19 14:07:00 no, phone support is not official dates Nov 19 14:07:05 now, if they can't get their story straight, that's a whole other problem Nov 19 14:07:17 I really couldn't care less Nov 19 14:07:35 a friend of mine called the flagship store who had tweeted about today being when they start selling instore, he was told next thursday or friday Nov 19 14:07:36 the 23rd is not "official" for the UK either Nov 19 14:07:38 there is no press release Nov 19 14:07:45 so why is that worth anything more than what I was told on the phone? Nov 19 14:08:09 w00t_: I would expect press release on 23rd Nov 19 14:08:16 viq: I'm hoping for one Nov 19 14:08:20 the release dates have been a farce Nov 19 14:08:27 no it hasn't Nov 19 14:08:29 I think a lot of people are assuming I'm complaining for the sake of complaining Nov 19 14:08:35 don't get me wrong, I'm not Nov 19 14:08:45 I'm not really even complaining Nov 19 14:08:48 at this stage I don't care :-) Nov 19 14:08:52 If they had, like, a set date, then I'm sure they'd have queues of people. Nov 19 14:08:59 But this moving target date is ridiculous. Nov 19 14:09:04 .. Nov 19 14:09:09 Hi! Can anyone tell me how to adjust the row height of gtk.TreeView inside hildon.PannableArea()? If I add the treeview to normal gtk.ScrolledWindow, the row height is ok. Nov 19 14:09:35 if it comes next week, they get my money, if it doesn't come, I might look into the HD2 Nov 19 14:09:45 well that's your loss Nov 19 14:09:55 Hello !!! Nov 19 14:10:12 If you can't wait a few weeks, a month, how ever long. IT just show's you're impatient. Nov 19 14:10:18 alterego, exactly...currently they piss off people who have preordered or are waiting to go to the shops and buy which is pretty sad because it is the best nokia phone for a long time Nov 19 14:10:21 Sure, we'd all /like/ to have it now. Nov 19 14:10:26 alterego: as I said, *I'm leaving the country* Nov 19 14:10:36 Oh, right, I was on lunch, missed that ;) Nov 19 14:10:45 if I'm not here to sign for it, it's shipped back to nokia in 48 hours, and I don't get refunded my shipping Nov 19 14:11:12 Should have gone for the free shipping ;) Nov 19 14:11:18 haha, yes Nov 19 14:11:47 To be honest, I don't care, because I don't get paid until next Friday anyway. Nov 19 14:12:09 if you exclude the fact that it's not out yet, express shipping ~1.5-2 months after I ordered is a bit amusing Nov 19 14:12:19 The problem I'm going to be faced with, is them running out of stock, which I can see happening. Nov 19 14:12:48 That is amusing, because what's 2 extra days :P Nov 19 14:12:48 alterego, one hopes they are using this delay to ramp up stock levels :) Nov 19 14:12:53 Heh Nov 19 14:13:08 Maybe they're using this delay to count the number of complaints so they know how many to make ;) Nov 19 14:13:13 zaheerm-lp: that's a fallacy Nov 19 14:13:14 But claims that the release has been a farce are ridiculous Nov 19 14:13:22 I heard they didn't make much money the last fy :) Nov 19 14:13:38 I didn't get the N810 until miod January. Nov 19 14:13:48 And I ordered it Nov, if I remember correctly. Nov 19 14:13:54 zaheerm-lp: they may have produced more, but demand going up means more is demanded (until a certain point when people go buy something that's out), meaning they end up overstocked as a result Nov 19 14:14:09 meh, I can't even order n75 from forum.nokia :D Nov 19 14:14:19 CoreFusion-, i think announcing that it has shipped helps noone, they should announce the date it is in the nokia stores Nov 19 14:14:19 wazd_: did they ever contact you? Nov 19 14:14:32 zaheerm-lp: and they did - in the US Nov 19 14:14:35 with the slight hitch that uh Nov 19 14:14:37 it's not available Nov 19 14:14:48 When shipping half way around the globe you expect them to give you a presice date? Nov 19 14:14:55 w00t_: erm, no :) Nov 19 14:15:01 wazd_: :/ Nov 19 14:15:17 CoreFusion-, they own all the flagship stores, surely like apple they can do a coordinated release right? Nov 19 14:15:36 BREAKING NEWS: 4 of the 5 ships that are carrying N900's have sunk whilst on route from Korea :P Nov 19 14:15:52 I saw a post on tmo with a good picture for that, alterego Nov 19 14:15:53 The 5th ship arrived safely with it's delivery to Poland. Nov 19 14:16:04 * alterego chuckles Nov 19 14:16:05 should make a nice blog post about it to create yet more media frenzy :-) Nov 19 14:16:25 you'd get divers trying to get their hands on them in the pacific Nov 19 14:16:40 zaheerm-lp: and delay the delivery on other countries until the one store that is the slowest to get their shipment get it? Nov 19 14:16:45 I almost wet myself about the rumour that Nokia were halting Symbian devices. Nov 19 14:16:55 People are just so retarded sometimes ^.^ Nov 19 14:17:06 CoreFusion-: what is coordinated release for? Nov 19 14:17:19 PaulFertser: direct that question to zaheerm-lp Nov 19 14:17:49 w00t_: you're right, i misread the comment :) Nov 19 14:17:52 my own view though is that it stops them being scalped and resold to death online to make cutthroat profits Nov 19 14:17:54 CoreFusion-, seems what they did right? finland to finland or other parts of europe is a pretty quick shopment Nov 19 14:18:12 they are not shipping from finland you know? Nov 19 14:18:16 zaheerm-lp: they were produced in korea Nov 19 14:18:27 yes i know they're made in korea Nov 19 14:19:23 who flashes the firmware just before delivery? the koreans or the finns? Nov 19 14:19:32 presumably, it's all done there Nov 19 14:19:41 it would be rather inefficient to do it otherwise Nov 19 14:20:38 BTW, is jtag ~easily accessible on n900? Nov 19 14:21:24 * CoreFusion- goes to take the dogs out -> Nov 19 14:21:40 Urgh, the HD2 is Windows. Nov 19 14:21:40 PaulFertser, i was told it is not too difficult Nov 19 14:21:52 Windows trying to look like apple Nov 19 14:21:56 alterego, what were you expecting? :) Nov 19 14:22:00 alterego: indeed, but hey, I've been using WM for the past 4 years Nov 19 14:22:28 it's not good, but it's tolerable Nov 19 14:22:54 3 days is more tolerable :P Nov 19 14:23:00 zaheerm-lp: nice to hear, thanks :) Nov 19 14:23:02 haha Nov 19 14:23:10 well, hopefully it will happen, like I said Nov 19 14:25:05 "480 X 800 WVGA" pahaha Nov 19 14:26:00 that's TVGA :P Nov 19 14:26:30 meh, I'm pretty sure I've used a monitor with not many more pixels than that Nov 19 14:26:53 err, yeah, that's swapped Nov 19 14:28:00 PaulFertser: don't think there's jtag on either n900 or n8x0 Nov 19 14:28:25 at least wired up Nov 19 14:28:41 Stskeeps: oh really? that'd be very strange. How do nokia folks debug it on lowlevel then? Nov 19 14:29:18 eh, there's all sorts if you have a flashing station thingy which plugs into the pins under the battery Nov 19 14:30:29 PaulFertser: serial? dunno Nov 19 14:30:32 Robot101: i know there's uart under the battery on n810. Nov 19 14:31:02 nolo's probably been debugged before final hw anyway Nov 19 14:31:39 Those pins are probably jtag Nov 19 14:31:49 Well, they're probably two things, jtag and a uart Nov 19 14:32:24 http://www.bu3sch.de/joomla/index.php/nokia-n810-serial-console for n810 Nov 19 14:33:52 UART on n810 is nothing new, but some serious work is better done with jtage. Nov 19 14:42:43 IT seems to me, that Nokia get a lot of stress from the maemo community, I've not seen them get this amount of dogging for any symbian devices, but it seems to happen with every Maemo device so far, Nov 19 14:43:32 Though, I remember saying this exact thing last time too. Nov 19 14:43:33 intelligent buyers are scary Nov 19 14:43:34 :P Nov 19 14:43:40 Heh Nov 19 14:43:44 Because maemo community is educated enough to ask for cool and useful features and to require proper attitude. Nov 19 14:44:00 I don't know about intelligent, I read, t.m.o sometimes and wonder. Nov 19 14:44:47 There's a laughable thread on the official nokia support forum about a load of unhappy N97 owners saying that Nokia should swap the N97 devices with N900's free of charge. Nov 19 14:45:02 i think we should delete the shipping threads when things do ship. Nov 19 14:45:05 they've gotten too insane. Nov 19 14:45:05 :P Nov 19 14:45:17 It's pretty old but I Came across it again today. Nov 19 14:45:35 hey Nov 19 14:45:41 the shipping threads are all that's keeping me *sane* Nov 19 14:45:41 ;) Nov 19 14:45:57 i suppose this says somethi about my current frame of mind, though.. Nov 19 14:46:21 even the new thread, 'n900 owners' are taking a hit Nov 19 14:46:33 thought i would get some nice comments about the device from real owners Nov 19 14:47:10 Venomrush: hey, you're the same as on tmo? Nov 19 14:48:05 w00t_, what's tmo Nov 19 14:48:11 talk Nov 19 14:48:18 yeah Nov 19 14:48:27 nice to put a name to the posts Nov 19 14:48:30 hi :-) Nov 19 14:48:41 hi :) Nov 19 14:48:46 just started joining the IRC Nov 19 14:54:45 hi :\ Nov 19 14:56:45 lopz, what's with the sad face today? :) Nov 19 15:01:02 * javispedro sighs at yet another mention of "the maemo 5 emulator" Nov 19 15:01:33 Time for a new drinking game. Nov 19 15:02:10 lardman, pong? Nov 19 15:02:38 javispedro: what's so bad about it? Nov 19 15:02:53 ccooke: that people ARE making opinions about the platform based on it. Nov 19 15:03:23 kalikiana, hehe ;) Nov 19 15:03:33 javispedro: argh! Nov 19 15:03:35 Browser bug actually fixed. Nov 19 15:03:37 now consider the blue colors bug, that half the applications on extras are missing, that it is actually faster than the device.. Nov 19 15:03:41 Let's see if it's really fixed. . . . Nov 19 15:04:19 kalikiana, No sad face, is rare face:) Nov 19 15:04:26 faster on cpu, while much slower animations if you didn't get 3d acceleration, etc. Nov 19 15:05:04 any of you know what OMAP2420 core version the N810 has? Nov 19 15:05:44 ccooke: and in the latest case I assume the guy is going to use "the emulator" to check for codec support. not realising it is not and emulator and the device uses dsp codecs. Nov 19 15:06:02 s/and emulator/an emulator Nov 19 15:08:59 javispedro: guy answered Nov 19 15:09:27 good news :) Nov 19 15:09:28 * Khertan didn't go anymore to talk.maemo.org ... too many noise Nov 19 15:09:31 ... *laugh* Nov 19 15:09:56 * Khertan did read anymore planet.maemo.org ... too many blogs with false statements ... Nov 19 15:10:05 ah, planet. Nov 19 15:10:05 just had a guy come up to me saying he'd been in a documentation meeting where apparently they were talking about the n900 and griping that I had one ;-) Nov 19 15:10:39 good to see meetings are productive in your absence hey? Nov 19 15:10:54 it wasn't even anything to do with me :-) Nov 19 15:11:00 * Khertan hate all this maemo-guru, maemo-expert ... and all others look like blog maintained by people that come from symbian and didn't seeing far away from their neck Nov 19 15:11:44 * Khertan prefers the old small maemo community ... without all this whinning people ... Nov 19 15:12:28 * Khertan can now be qualified as : asocial .... Nov 19 15:12:36 hah, welcome to the club! Nov 19 15:12:39 ;) Nov 19 15:12:41 ccooke, i'm sure people at work gripe about me having one too :) Nov 19 15:13:02 A private mailing list with device's MAC address as the password? Nov 19 15:13:23 * Khertan still didn't understand how people can vote thumbs down on guy announcing new program on planet ... or the start delivery of the n900 .... Nov 19 15:13:51 qemu target and full emulation would be nice. Nov 19 15:13:53 If it wasn't 5% sped that is. Nov 19 15:13:55 speed Nov 19 15:14:15 * RST38h thumbs down all the posts from that goddamn Fennec aggregator Nov 19 15:14:37 * lardman skips straight to the development section Nov 19 15:14:54 lardman: do you know what version of OMAP2420 sits in N810? Nov 19 15:15:11 Stskeeps: no, and I'm not sure how one can find out either Nov 19 15:15:25 iirc there's a command to return the DSP version, or I think there is Nov 19 15:15:38 but that's probably not going to tell you what you need to know Nov 19 15:15:40 k Nov 19 15:15:49 lardman: guy answered, was on leave yesterday so Nov 19 15:15:51 perhaps CPU + DSP versions point to OMAP version? Nov 19 15:16:15 ah, so that's important is it? Nov 19 15:16:53 exemple : Maemo 5 final release: firmware and updated SDK <<< the quim gil post ... announcing the availability of the new firmware and final sdk Nov 19 15:17:02 how can you vote thumb down on that Nov 19 15:17:04 ? Nov 19 15:17:20 lardman: heh, just imagine if it turned out the socs we have don't have it Nov 19 15:17:38 Stskeeps: lol, that would be bad... Nov 19 15:17:46 though it appears to power up anyway, so I guess not Nov 19 15:18:41 will we get source for the test fns? Would be good to know what fails Nov 19 15:19:12 giving him access to my n810 atm Nov 19 15:19:28 Question about hildon.FileCHooserDialog ? i didn't get any icon like in other application when i run one on PyGTKEditor, did i miss something ? Nov 19 15:19:30 ok cool Nov 19 15:20:22 Stskeeps: /me imagines ssh access + webcam to see if the screen does anything :) Nov 19 15:21:04 that can be organized, but i'll get him to make the bloody thing initialize first Nov 19 15:21:04 :P Nov 19 15:21:12 indeed Nov 19 15:22:01 Khertan, what kind of icon? Nov 19 15:22:30 looks like Nokia is hiring in Finland Nov 19 15:22:54 kalikiana: the small one ... like folder Nov 19 15:22:56 I got two mails from recruting company - one for device drivers, second for maemo development Nov 19 15:23:00 Stskeeps: basically he needs to fix the display class stuffv Nov 19 15:23:08 kalikiana: it s an open chooser dialog Nov 19 15:25:34 Khertan, here pyGTKEditor doesn't open any dialogue when I do File > Open Nov 19 15:25:47 or did you modify it? Nov 19 15:26:13 kalikiana: i'm currently rewriting it from scratch for fremantle Nov 19 15:26:36 ah Nov 19 15:26:44 kalikiana: a preview : http://khertan.net/2009/11/pygtkeditor-3-0-is-still-in-development/ Nov 19 15:26:44 :) Nov 19 15:27:11 Khertan, while you're at it, please fix the icons :D Nov 19 15:27:38 kalikiana: the icons ? Nov 19 15:27:59 what s the problem with it ? Nov 19 15:28:46 Khertan, they are not themed Nov 19 15:29:09 * alterego thinks the "Countdown Home Desktop" widget screenshot should have a "Countdown until N900 released" screen shot instead ^.^ Nov 19 15:29:57 hum ... but it s standart gtk stock icon so they should be Nov 19 15:31:31 Khertan: but it is maemo... Nov 19 15:32:04 hrw: if i remember it s still based on gtk ? Nov 19 15:32:28 Khertan: patched gtk so I would check maemogtk sources first Nov 19 15:32:33 so i didn't understand why this doesnt work Nov 19 15:32:53 Khertan, that's a bug in the platform, but I don't know if it will be fixed at all since there wasn't much response from designers Nov 19 15:33:16 kalikiana: and how does we get "Maemo"Stock icon ? Nov 19 15:33:32 there is something somewhere about it ? Nov 19 15:33:57 or does should i use directly icon theme file ? Nov 19 15:34:30 Khertan, I have a little script that creates symbolic links. If it's not fixed in the platform, we'll probably have a package that contains such a script Nov 19 15:34:51 So far I'm waiting if something happens Nov 19 15:35:11 Khertan, https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=223 Nov 19 15:35:14 Bug 223: Maemo doesn't contain properly themed versions of Gtk stock icons Nov 19 15:35:28 Khertan, meanwhile you can use GtkIconFactory to map icons Nov 19 15:35:36 that's what I did in my code Nov 19 15:35:39 it's C, though Nov 19 15:36:00 if it helps, I can show you the C code Nov 19 15:36:02 hum ... i ll try to look if there is binding in py thx Nov 19 15:36:05 oh yes ... Nov 19 15:36:34 * Khertan will be back in 2 minutes Nov 19 15:37:05 Khertan, http://git.xfce.org/apps/midori/tree/midori/sokoke.c#n985 Nov 19 15:43:49 i m back Nov 19 15:43:50 thx Nov 19 15:43:56 i m looking Nov 19 15:47:25 Khertan, spiteful people. Nov 19 15:47:38 lardman, pong? Nov 19 15:48:04 GAN900: ? Nov 19 15:49:25 Khertan, spiteful people are the people who thumb announcements like that. Nov 19 15:49:43 "But I can't afford an N900. :pout: :click:" Nov 19 15:50:39 well, that's one downside to the sw platform being iterative... when next device comes out, old device is a lot cheaper Nov 19 15:51:42 GeneralAntilles: yep but i can't understand that Nov 19 15:51:56 Khertan, it takes a certain nasty mentality. ;) Nov 19 15:52:25 GeneralAntilles: clearly ... and i don't see it using an open source device or contributing to an open source community Nov 19 15:53:26 Seriously, what was Engadget thinking? Nov 19 15:53:36 Zeigler must be some kind of stupid. Nov 19 15:53:43 I AM BUYING HTC HD2 RIGHT NOW Nov 19 15:54:03 THIS WILL BE THE END FOR NOKIA! Nov 19 15:54:03 (everyone run for the hills!) Nov 19 15:54:06 ;) Nov 19 15:54:55 $CLEVER_WIN-MO_RETORT Nov 19 15:56:06 What about Engadget now? Nov 19 15:56:41 New theme with the header from hell. Nov 19 15:57:38 2048x1152 here and I can only see the title of the first article. Nov 19 15:57:41 Wow, that looks awful. Back to Gizmodo for me, then. Nov 19 15:57:45 oh ... i ven't read engadget for a long time ago Nov 19 15:58:28 ouch ... engadget is really horrible .... Nov 19 15:58:36 endgadget :) Nov 19 15:59:09 Google Reader. Nov 19 15:59:18 * RST38h never goes directly to Engadget nowadays Nov 19 15:59:39 Damnit, when did it get cold again here? :( Nov 19 16:09:14 HTC HD2... windows... pft. Nov 19 16:10:13 Yeah, I share an office with a guy who's contemplating either the HD2 or the N900 Nov 19 16:10:29 From his perspective, he's probably better off with the HD2 Nov 19 16:10:35 His current mobile is Windowsw. Nov 19 16:10:48 if you're used to it I guess anything else will deceive you. Nov 19 16:10:51 less risk for him then Nov 19 16:10:52 He's a Microsoft nut Nov 19 16:10:59 You have to be prepared to lose quite a chunk of functionality Nov 19 16:11:08 Exactly, Nov 19 16:11:39 * javispedro lost decent PIM app when switching to the N810 from Palm m130 Nov 19 16:11:56 Of course, he's a coder, and we've done Linux projects together, so it's not completely above him to do some hacking, but I think he'll be one of those people that just expects all of the apps he needs to be available straight away. Nov 19 16:11:57 from Palm T|X actually, but even the m130 PIM apps are good. Nov 19 16:14:56 oh, DDP reserved funds released! Nov 19 16:14:58 All: On freemantle (Maemo5) N900 -- does the Clutter based UI -- use OpenGLES 1.x or OpenGLES 2.x backend on OMAP3430.. Anyone here knows? Nov 19 16:15:09 jayabharath: 2 Nov 19 16:15:23 jayabharath: and it's using non trivial shaders Nov 19 16:15:41 (for example, blurring) Nov 19 16:15:56 and it's spelled fremantle. Nov 19 16:16:23 lol. Nov 19 16:16:48 javispedro: Thanks for the quick answer... (sorry about my spelling :D - my coffee has not yet kicked in) Nov 19 16:18:09 np Nov 19 16:20:03 javispedro: when you moved from PalmOS to Maemo you loose pim at all Nov 19 16:20:27 hrw: well, I use GPE now. Nov 19 16:20:39 but the tap count is nowhere similar. Nov 19 16:21:10 which means less appointmens filed -> less organization -> more chaos -> less free time Nov 19 16:21:15 :( Nov 19 16:21:42 there is no calendar in maemo 5? Nov 19 16:21:56 There is. Nov 19 16:21:57 there is. Nov 19 16:22:01 where did you get that from ? ofc there is Nov 19 16:22:01 javispedro: it is hard to beat palmos pim when it comes to simplicity of use Nov 19 16:22:01 :P Nov 19 16:22:02 but? Nov 19 16:22:16 Flyser: I'm talking about m4 Nov 19 16:22:18 javispedro: and I still miss Agendus Nov 19 16:22:22 okay Nov 19 16:22:51 hrw: I was a fan of the builtin pim. I didn't need anything more other than hard button -> tap -> start writing for appointment Nov 19 16:23:25 javispedro: I used many parts of agendus. more views, colours, icons, linking Nov 19 16:23:55 well, I liked the colors and birthdays features from the extended palm1 apps. Nov 19 16:24:10 but the rest--never used :P Nov 19 16:25:17 * hardaker will miss datebk6 Nov 19 16:25:25 how many more people will ask for clock widget I wonder :) Nov 19 16:26:02 i know huh Nov 19 16:26:28 we were making it with fiferboy but his wife brought new Olmsted in this world so the developement is stoped for a while :D Nov 19 16:27:07 Damn fiferboy 2.0 Nov 19 16:27:09 ~seen fiferboy Nov 19 16:27:14 fiferboy was last seen on IRC in channel #maemo, 5d 21h 57m 17s ago, saying: 'If qwerty12 doesn't know it, it can't be known'. Nov 19 16:27:20 so true Nov 19 16:27:37 Stskeeps, pish. Nov 19 16:27:41 probably hasn't slept since then Nov 19 16:27:42 wazd_: wife bug always delay developpment Nov 19 16:28:52 did anybody hear of smb. getting his N900 already? Nov 19 16:29:24 samba ? Nov 19 16:29:43 somebody? Nov 19 16:29:45 zeev, are you abbreviating because you're on an N900 keyboard? :P Nov 19 16:29:47 :) Nov 19 16:30:00 Run! he can infect us! Nov 19 16:30:07 zeev: just got a pre production one Nov 19 16:30:26 half this channel has one. Nov 19 16:30:40 and another half is me :D Nov 19 16:30:42 I mean pre ordered one Nov 19 16:30:47 wazd_: and me :( Nov 19 16:30:56 javispedro: oh?! Nov 19 16:31:21 javispedro: how come? I thought you were on the summit Nov 19 16:31:28 I wasn't Nov 19 16:31:31 I'm on the DDP though Nov 19 16:31:45 someone got an answer / confirmation from the store for the ddp device ? Nov 19 16:31:51 nah Nov 19 16:32:18 i ve done the command and checkout ... but no news since, and never see anything on my online bank account Nov 19 16:32:38 can anyone that has one tell me if mariana will be in my contact list when i get mine? Nov 19 16:32:58 heh, people who went to maemo developer days got a free n900 Nov 19 16:32:59 not a loaner Nov 19 16:34:00 Stskeeps: PR > Community :) Nov 19 16:34:18 Stskeeps: really ? Nov 19 16:34:45 i ven't didn't hear about this maemo developper day Nov 19 16:34:46 Khertan: yeah, in cph Nov 19 16:34:50 my former boss went Nov 19 16:34:50 what is it ? Nov 19 16:35:28 Stskeeps: so your former boss have his very own n900 and you haven't? :D Nov 19 16:35:37 Stskeeps: oh this ridiculous life :D Nov 19 16:37:48 it ll be very hard for next event made by nokia to caught a seat if they loan or offer device everytimes Nov 19 16:38:08 :) Nov 19 16:41:37 I hope that final Polish translation is better then one in SDK :D Nov 19 16:41:55 danish one is horrible on device. i switched to english. :P Nov 19 16:42:35 Polish one has wdgt_va_24h_time and wdgt_va_date_long Nov 19 16:42:54 ick Nov 19 16:42:54 :P Nov 19 16:42:57 so nobody who preordered n900 got one, right? Nov 19 16:43:03 I am 33 years old, got good education and do not understand those Polish words Nov 19 16:43:25 zeev: there was rumour that we will get them in 2H2010 Nov 19 16:45:31 hrw, https://bugs.maemo.org/enter_bug.cgi?classification=Translations Nov 19 16:45:47 zeev, I doubt it :) Nov 19 16:45:48 but it's getting nearer now Nov 19 16:45:53 scratchbox is sick Nov 19 16:45:53 also to me it looks like Nokia saved money for localization :-/ Nov 19 16:46:08 hrw, oops, should be https://bugs.maemo.org/enter_bug.cgi?product=Translations Nov 19 16:46:13 andre__: I refuse posting bugs before testing on device Nov 19 16:46:17 hrw: That's the best summary i've yet seen :P Nov 19 16:46:31 hrw, i see Nov 19 16:46:53 andre__: hrw: yes, nokia got really strange guys for doing the localization Nov 19 16:47:05 and I want to shout/kick/makeharm for person which decided to use sbox for maemo Nov 19 16:47:18 lo qwerty12 Nov 19 16:47:20 it's a specialized company, and those guys doing localization pretend to be native speakers Nov 19 16:47:21 qemu is better then that crap Nov 19 16:47:26 Hiya, Stskeeps Nov 19 16:47:42 but people had endless discussions with them over proper terms Nov 19 16:48:01 10x resolv.conf just in /scratchbox dir... Nov 19 16:48:17 some German translations I saw were just complete bullshit Nov 19 16:48:36 tbf: I know that Nokia refuse to use community translations. We tried to give them Polish translation of Diablo Nov 19 16:48:39 ...unfortunately those strange localization guys are very insistent, so most devs gave up on correcting them Nov 19 16:49:03 hrw: let's talk with quim again. Nov 19 16:49:29 hrw: harmattan will change that Nov 19 16:49:39 big discussions about it and workshop coming up Nov 19 16:49:53 Stskeeps: and will attempt to grab next €€€ from pocket Nov 19 16:50:17 oh nice, because I'm fearing that now that they control the toolkit too it will diverge even more from desktop Linux. Nov 19 16:50:31 Community translations: Also see http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=27997 Nov 19 16:50:40 for me n900 will be device which will show is there a sense on nokia devices Nov 19 16:50:49 hrw: well. btw: nothing stops you from putting community translations into extras-devel Nov 19 16:51:02 tbf: they will conflict with system one Nov 19 16:51:36 hrw: if you give them a higher version number, as done in ubuntu ppas, the extras package will overrule the SSU package Nov 19 16:51:48 tbf: to next SSU etc Nov 19 16:51:49 hrw: have talked to timeless? he has done his own english translation Nov 19 16:52:01 hrw: yes, that's the price to pay. Nov 19 16:52:02 suihkulokki: I know, I looked at his package some time ago Nov 19 16:52:20 hrw: but i doubt there will be many l10n updates between major updates Nov 19 16:52:25 um Nov 19 16:52:27 tbf: I am not that type of developer Nov 19 16:52:32 there are updates for the first service release Nov 19 16:52:37 which i haven't dealt with Nov 19 16:52:44 i would not bet against additional strings Nov 19 16:52:47 tbf: will rather stay with english Nov 19 16:52:53 hrw: create a topic and talk.maemo.org and find people who help you :-D Nov 19 16:52:56 even though they're expensive, if they're needed for a feature Nov 19 16:53:17 the last fw update is better in battery drain ... but the modest bug is really annoying Nov 19 16:53:17 https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=6219 Nov 19 16:53:19 Bug 6219: Modest doesn't take care of preferences for automatic update Nov 19 16:53:20 hrw: let's team up and finally overrule those weird translators nokia bought! :-D Nov 19 16:53:21 my intention is to when i'm feeling a bit better put together a debian/rules file to build this and push it to extras-testing Nov 19 16:53:54 Khertan, vote, vote ;-) Nov 19 16:54:08 i'm the opener :) Nov 19 16:54:15 i know :-P Nov 19 16:54:23 hrw: for edition the translations we could use one of the zillions web based tools Nov 19 16:54:26 i ve already vote :) Nov 19 16:54:39 tbf: I know Nov 19 16:55:13 anyway now I wait for device to be shipped Nov 19 16:55:22 with this last fw i was hoping we got a preferences for the instant messaging ... and instead of that we lost the one on email :) Nov 19 16:56:02 hrw: i'd still would over this deal: you get and keep the forum topic running, and i provide technical support Nov 19 16:56:15 offer Nov 19 16:56:23 hell, my spelling! Nov 19 16:56:48 tbf: first I want to check state of translation. and then there is TomaszD who is official GNOME translator so he would be better person for that task probably ;d Nov 19 16:57:07 hrw: you know where to find me ;-) Nov 19 16:57:11 (who's going to barcelona on behalf of Mer) Nov 19 16:57:30 Stskeeps: GSM conf? Nov 19 16:57:42 hrw: no, maemo barcelona long weekend Nov 19 16:57:56 Stskeeps: make one in Berlin... Nov 19 16:57:58 documentation, localization, ux/code, etc themes Nov 19 16:58:15 * hrw wants maemosdk without sbox Nov 19 17:00:47 oh ... Nov 19 17:00:54 just got a nokia store email ... Nov 19 17:01:01 n900 available on fr store Nov 19 17:01:05 Khertan: cancellation? ;-) Nov 19 17:01:08 649 Euros Nov 19 17:01:28 no we cannot preorder in the fr store Nov 19 17:01:28 :) Nov 19 17:01:56 but i m still waiting news from the "pseudo" pro nokia forum estore and the ddp Nov 19 17:02:15 no news, no answer to email, no confirmation for paiement Nov 19 17:02:23 nothing in bank account Nov 19 17:02:53 does some guys get news for the ddp program ? Nov 19 17:03:02 did somebody already receive his device ? Nov 19 17:03:09 don't think so Nov 19 17:03:16 hrw, hey, what's up? Nov 19 17:03:28 Khertan: second half of 2010 is latest rumour about ddp Nov 19 17:03:29 did you got an confirmation when buying ? Nov 19 17:03:32 Khertan: what does forum nokia offer? Nov 19 17:03:50 TomaszD: fixing Polish translation probably will need to be done - what do you think? Nov 19 17:03:58 Robot101: nothing than that the way for ddp Nov 19 17:04:12 hrw, fixing where, what? Nov 19 17:04:14 hrw: lol Nov 19 17:04:16 Khertan: my order is over week old and status did not changed Nov 19 17:04:16 Hmm...looks like DPP reversed bank transaction Nov 19 17:04:27 So, no N900 this time? =) Nov 19 17:04:28 hrw: where did you see the statut ? Nov 19 17:04:28 TomaszD: Polish one has wdgt_va_24h_time and wdgt_va_date_long Nov 19 17:04:35 hopefully this means we all get free n900s, RST38h ;p Nov 19 17:04:40 RST38h: mine was not yet unblocked Nov 19 17:04:50 Khertan: in eStore Nov 19 17:05:03 Sts: most miracles I have ever experienced weren't of a good kind... Nov 19 17:05:10 I am really starting to 'love' sbox... Nov 19 17:05:21 hrw: really ? Nov 19 17:05:22 Setting up libosso-abook... Nov 19 17:05:30 You must be roo to launch this program. Nov 19 17:05:32 WTF? Nov 19 17:05:38 s/roo/root Nov 19 17:05:39 fakeroot apt-get? Nov 19 17:05:43 hrw: did you get an email after you have done paiement ? Nov 19 17:05:50 hrw, what are you talking about? which application, official Maemo 5.0 release has missing Polish translations? Nov 19 17:05:55 tbf: i'm probably going to adapt my package to let people do semi live editing Nov 19 17:06:00 FN still shows N900 available for purchase, so I guess they cancelled it Nov 19 17:06:03 because it seems like a lot of people would like that Nov 19 17:06:22 TomaszD: in sdk I see those on statusbar instead of time Nov 19 17:06:54 hrw, well, probably the sdk is broken somehow when it comes to l10n Nov 19 17:06:56 ah well, another week of "when's the DDP N900 going to ship?" ;) Nov 19 17:07:03 haha ^ Nov 19 17:07:16 yo guys Nov 19 17:07:20 hrw, I just found a couple of issues with 5.0 and reported them, some of those issues have already been fixed Nov 19 17:08:10 I would guess that only the standard English engineering strings are included in the sdk Nov 19 17:08:12 timeless_mbp: shall i change my nick from something matching "to be fair" to something different? Nov 19 17:08:15 javis: So, before or after Christmas? Willing to bet? Nov 19 17:08:32 before. Nov 19 17:08:38 hrw: Oh i found that order link Nov 19 17:08:41 tbf: i'm too asleep to notice Nov 19 17:08:41 TomaszD: or jsut older packages. I jsut did upgrade and sbox do not even want to start Nov 19 17:08:46 i treat these strings as opaque Nov 19 17:08:50 hrw: thx ... no i m sure that the order was registered Nov 19 17:08:59 i'm vaguely used to Sir tbl Nov 19 17:09:10 hrw, have not had to deal with the sdk yet, I just installed it yesterday, I suggest you report any issue you find Nov 19 17:09:25 RST38h: I'd need it by December 16th, so my bet is December 17th. Nov 19 17:09:31 TomaszD: I am waiting for device before will report maemo5 bugs Nov 19 17:09:33 avid Murphy's Law reader, you see :) Nov 19 17:09:36 any Qt coders here? Nov 19 17:09:56 javispedro: the problem isn't when when when ... but no information / confirmation / answer to email if the order was registered or not Nov 19 17:10:15 javispedro: and in estore it s difficult to found the 'my order' link Nov 19 17:10:17 :) Nov 19 17:10:19 javis: Why Dec 16 though? Nov 19 17:10:19 hrw, good idea, also check the bugzilla before reporting, some of the issues you might encounter have already been fixed in internal builds Nov 19 17:10:24 Khertan: agreed, that's why I am yet to paid. Nov 19 17:10:39 TomaszD: I know. I use that strange platform since fosdem 2007 Nov 19 17:10:41 RST38h: deadline before I decide to go on code a demo in iphone Nov 19 17:10:57 TomaszD: and bugs were nearly half of my karma Nov 19 17:11:04 although I'm very unhappy that they've ignored one of my suggestions, they call tags "znaczniki" instead of "etykiety"... Nov 19 17:11:09 which is really killing me Nov 19 17:11:11 javispedro, and HD2? Nov 19 17:11:15 but it's WONTFIX Nov 19 17:11:15 javis: Ehehehe Nov 19 17:11:15 now i know that the order is registered .... just waiting Nov 19 17:11:30 GeneralAntilles: unfortunately I can only steal iphones around here ;) Nov 19 17:11:50 * RST38h wonders what .ru translation for tags would be Nov 19 17:12:27 I have a question. About to start a coding project, for Maemo5 N900. I want to know whether if I start coding in Qt will it look identical to a normal C Maemo5 app Nov 19 17:12:39 GeneralAntilles: this is just a stupid for a stupid schoolwork, I'm not saying I'm going to switch to iphone. Nov 19 17:13:08 Yeah, sure, whatever, traitor. Nov 19 17:13:31 muahaha Nov 19 17:15:08 GeneralAntilles: did you read 164? Nov 19 17:15:50 wdgtbdstop Nov 19 17:15:59 lovely nokia Nov 19 17:16:14 hrw: using the "maemo 5 emulator"? Nov 19 17:16:21 javispedro: yep Nov 19 17:16:32 javispedro: no emulator - virtualbox image with sdk Nov 19 17:16:34 the don't worry, the spanish localisation is as incomplete Nov 19 17:16:34 hrw: what are you doing? Nov 19 17:16:40 s/the/then Nov 19 17:16:46 s/s/z Nov 19 17:16:50 "emulator" instead of "SDK" is so weird Nov 19 17:16:57 andre__: agreed. Nov 19 17:16:58 timeless_mbp: playing with so called 'maemo 5 sdk' in virtualbox Nov 19 17:17:04 how can i get a web frame in Qt Nov 19 17:17:16 in the estore about my ddp n900 order ... i can read the line : Priority: Critical Nov 19 17:17:18 lol Nov 19 17:17:18 hrw: i think you want my Mer l10n packages Nov 19 17:17:42 aloha? Nov 19 17:17:44 blame venomrush and his "N900 emulator guide" Nov 19 17:17:53 javispedro: he's in here :) Nov 19 17:18:24 ah, interesting. Nov 19 17:18:28 I love nokia i10n ;D Nov 19 17:18:29 Can anyone help me? I was referred here.. Nov 19 17:18:35 sfil_li_size_1kb_99 ;d Nov 19 17:18:56 hrw: what did you upgrade from? Nov 19 17:19:18 Stskeeps: http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=34517 - official maemo 5 sdk image Nov 19 17:19:41 Stskeeps: did 'apt-get update;apt-get upgrade;fakeroot dpkg --configure -a' in sbox Nov 19 17:19:57 Kieron_: http://taschenorakel.de/michael/2009/11/11/qt-46-maemo-it-works/ Nov 19 17:20:03 javispedro, haha what's wrong with my guide Nov 19 17:20:12 i tried to amend the content and title Nov 19 17:20:14 wont let me Nov 19 17:20:25 content yes, title no Nov 19 17:20:39 what do you want me to change Nov 19 17:20:44 @javispedro danke :) Nov 19 17:20:53 hrw: hrm, got nokia-binaries token? Nov 19 17:21:24 Stskeeps: one is inside already Nov 19 17:21:34 k Nov 19 17:21:40 weird you don't get translations but ok Nov 19 17:21:57 Venomrush: well, make it clear the SDK is a developers thing -- and that it's not a "N900 emulator". Nov 19 17:21:58 someone really need to teach maemo autobuilder about dependencies Nov 19 17:22:14 Stskeeps: I have Polish translation - just not complete Nov 19 17:22:17 Venomrush: Calling SDK "emulator" and trying to use it for anything outside development is what is wrong Nov 19 17:23:04 hi Nov 19 17:23:07 isn't it true it emulates N900 screen? Nov 19 17:23:16 Venomrush: it does not Nov 19 17:23:17 hence how i got the term 'emulator' Nov 19 17:23:28 Venomrush, the term is wrong. Nov 19 17:23:33 It's not an emulator. Nov 19 17:23:34 only the _ARMEL target emulates something, and it does not do that well. Nov 19 17:23:39 Stskeeps: l10n "6.0+r7250+0m5" are installed Nov 19 17:23:46 true Nov 19 17:23:50 i want to zoom in/out in picture viewer. But i found no sliders and circular scrolling doesn't work also Nov 19 17:23:51 well, i can't edit the title Nov 19 17:24:07 Venomrush, contact a mod. Nov 19 17:24:11 sjgadsby or Reggie Nov 19 17:24:24 how would u like a new title to be? Nov 19 17:24:35 SDK emulator? Nov 19 17:24:46 "Maemo SDK 5 Installation Guide" Nov 19 17:24:56 Remove the word emulator completely. Nov 19 17:25:04 okay dokey Nov 19 17:25:11 and then i'll even thank you since it seems to have worked succesfully for quite a lot of people. Considering the odds of sbox... Nov 19 17:25:14 Software Development Guide - Installation and Use Tutorial Nov 19 17:25:32 it does work well actually Nov 19 17:26:01 i installed serveral apps and was able to report serveral bugs Nov 19 17:26:10 hmm.. so I see it properly - no Jabber? AIM, GaduGadu, GTalk, Groupwise, ICQ, MSN, QQ, Sametime, Yahoo Nov 19 17:26:20 Venomrush: testing has to be done on real device. Nov 19 17:26:46 anyone an idea about zooming pictures? Nov 19 17:27:20 hrw, install telepathy-extras Nov 19 17:28:22 Venomrush: of course, unless you know enough about the target app you can tell apart a bug that would happen in both i386 or armel (like a typo). Nov 19 17:28:34 oh ... just remember that google os was presented today ? Nov 19 17:28:38 so any news ? Nov 19 17:28:42 but that's not true for the platform apps... Nov 19 17:28:44 when nokia and maemo will learn about Release.gpg? Nov 19 17:29:21 hrw: the first days the fremantle repo was actually signed. Nov 19 17:29:35 ok, requested change to -> Maemo SDK 5 Installation Guide on Windows PC Nov 19 17:29:38 I don't what happened with that... Nov 19 17:29:42 javispedro: any idea how to 'Hildonize' the GUI from Qt > N900, or does it render automatically Nov 19 17:29:51 sorry im a symbian noob, not used to all this Nov 19 17:29:56 GeneralAntilles: installed. got one more MSN and Salut Nov 19 17:30:05 Kieron_: I'm not a Qt dev, but I guess it does, considering that blog post says there are no "platform specific hacks" Nov 19 17:30:21 what's the maemo-qt channel? it's still active? Nov 19 17:31:03 #qt-maemo Nov 19 17:31:04 argh.. 'Tel. Kom. (pryw.)'... why.... why... Nov 19 17:31:26 javispedro: cheers. Nov 19 17:31:41 can i ask about the DDP, i'm thinking of getting a device through DDP to do development work, one retail for personal use Nov 19 17:32:26 getting the device through DDP is that a loan or a permanent buy? how come i was told i'm only able to keep it for a certain period until January or something, then need to return it Nov 19 17:32:56 that's stupid forking out €250 euros and keep the device for only 2 months, does Nokia refund the money once they get the device back? Nov 19 17:33:31 Getting a pre-production loan != the same as getting one from DDP Nov 19 17:33:50 ah Nov 19 17:34:03 Furthermore, you were only eligible for the DDP if you had 200 karma when they were selecting people Nov 19 17:34:27 bu... Nov 19 17:34:41 maemo5 calendar is worse then the one which I use on S60 ;( Nov 19 17:35:14 time to write blog post Nov 19 17:35:29 hrw: at least seems better than most of the current ones for diabl Nov 19 17:35:49 hrw, how is it worse? Nov 19 17:35:53 i had 3 when the program got announced, i now have 175...shows 200 was in fact a very fair number Nov 19 17:35:57 javispedro: I like gpe calendar Nov 19 17:36:04 200 seems pretty easy to get tbh Nov 19 17:36:13 i only joined maemo.org for 2 weeks Nov 19 17:36:14 zaheerm-lp, whoah :) Nov 19 17:36:17 got 115 already Nov 19 17:36:21 TomaszD: repeats are worse then in handy calendar - cannot do 'repeat on 3rd Tuesday each month' Nov 19 17:36:35 ShadowJK, people keep thanking my t.m.o posts :) Nov 19 17:36:39 ok, so that's one feature missing Nov 19 17:36:49 TomaszD: and lack of timezone support suxx Nov 19 17:37:00 ah, features. Nov 19 17:37:16 is the DDP still on for those with 200+? Nov 19 17:37:29 hrw: I kinda hate the tap counts in GPE Nov 19 17:37:29 hrw, well, report these as feature enhancements Nov 19 17:37:32 I have a meeting each Wednesday at 10:00 NYC time. Nov 19 17:37:32 Venomrush: no, it was one time Nov 19 17:37:33 heh, my tmo link to maemo.org isn't working :) Nov 19 17:37:40 TomaszD: first device, then bugs Nov 19 17:37:48 tmo is kinda insane, 2 days and 20 pages of new posts.. Nov 19 17:38:01 * qwerty12 's DDP will go unused Nov 19 17:38:22 how come? Nov 19 17:38:27 qwerty12: it will have a use. similar to the one which some devices here have Nov 19 17:38:35 qwerty12: it is called 'gathering dust' Nov 19 17:39:03 very useful. Nov 19 17:39:03 ShadowJK: I already have a loaner for a year, and I believe there's a time limit in which I must order the device and I can't justify spending the money to do so :) Nov 19 17:39:13 But you can always use two Nov 19 17:39:33 when one gets whacked by the watchdog you pick up the other one and by the time that one gets whacked by the watchdog you resume on the first ;) Nov 19 17:39:41 *grin* Nov 19 17:40:00 Actually, I've been really lucky. I've only had one WD reboot with the latest firmware Nov 19 17:40:24 ah, hardware multitasking ;) Nov 19 17:40:59 (mail from mpobilephonesdirect: They'll ship on the 3rd of December. This is actually the first *date* they've given - previously it's been "soon" or "November", etc) Nov 19 17:41:00 I do that with my N800 and N810.. when the N800 locks up because the browser wants to swapout 150 megabytes of crap, I pickup the N810 and read the IRC backlog ;) Nov 19 17:41:25 the IRC backlog, which has 300k lines and thus causes the browser to hang Nov 19 17:41:41 Oh, BTW, MicroB sucks for reading the IRC backlog Nov 19 17:41:50 It loads the page fine, but the kinetic scrolling Nov 19 17:41:52 Urgh Nov 19 17:42:02 qwerty12: too slow? too fast? Nov 19 17:42:14 * javispedro wonders if by 2020 the irc logs main page will have enough day entries to overflow most desktop browsers Nov 19 17:42:24 ccooke: Takes wayyy too long to get to the end Nov 19 17:42:37 * javispedro misses diablo already Nov 19 17:42:48 * ccooke realises his irc client has been logging #ubuntu Nov 19 17:42:55 At which point I say "fuck it" and load up Tear which still has a scrollbar, in addition to kinetic scrolling Nov 19 17:42:59 oops. Time to clear that 2 gig logfile :-) Nov 19 17:45:03 you're all be glad to hear the title got changed.. Nov 19 17:45:05 :) Nov 19 17:48:35 * mgedmin feels bad about not improving irc log views Nov 19 17:52:26 * Shapeshifter wants nokia to open up a flagship store in zurich. Nov 19 17:53:03 the swiss are rich suckers, they'll buy lots of phones. There's not even 8'000'000 people in Switzerland, and over 500'000 iphones have already been sold >.> Nov 19 17:53:45 i'm looking for service manual for the n900 Nov 19 17:53:50 level 1 to 4 Nov 19 17:54:02 they are available but at a cost.. Nov 19 17:54:14 They are? Nov 19 17:54:16 Where? Nov 19 17:54:22 anyone already got them they can share? Nov 19 17:55:46 any of you n900 owners have tried a screen protector? Nov 19 17:56:04 or generally a screen protector on a resistive screen? Is it any good to have one of these? Nov 19 17:56:14 or does touching even get tougher? Nov 19 17:57:11 i want to zoom in/out in picture viewer. But i found no sliders and circular scrolling doesn't work also Nov 19 17:57:28 bug or my fault? Nov 19 17:57:34 volume buttons? Nov 19 17:57:45 dunno, is in scratchbox Nov 19 17:57:55 but should be available via touchscreen Nov 19 17:58:14 Ayayay!!! Nov 19 17:58:19 Dumb shit, I am Nov 19 17:58:24 serenity: Try F8 Nov 19 17:58:34 Flashing wipes out any downloads off the MMC card Nov 19 17:58:36 Shapeshifter, I use Boxwave Anti-Glare protectors on most of my devices. Nov 19 17:58:43 The internal one Nov 19 17:58:49 emmc does yeah Nov 19 17:58:53 dneary: Only if you flash the eMMC Nov 19 17:58:54 I'd downloaded a bunch of stuff :( Nov 19 17:59:04 They haven't released one for the N900 yet, however. Nov 19 17:59:06 And was just following the instructions on the list Nov 19 17:59:09 dneary, FIASCO does not. Nov 19 17:59:22 GeneralAntilles: I see. Nov 19 17:59:33 Only eMMC, which is something you'll never have to flash again. Nov 19 17:59:47 qwerty12: f8 is what for? Nov 19 17:59:51 GeneralAntilles: It does if you go: Nov 19 17:59:52 sudo ./flasher-3.5 -f -F firmware_image.bin Nov 19 17:59:52 sudo ./flasher-3.5 -f -F -R emmc_image.bin Nov 19 18:00:33 try martinfields screen protector Nov 19 18:00:37 i've used it on my n97 Nov 19 18:00:43 theyre well made Nov 19 18:00:55 is does zooming via f7/f8. Are these the volume buttons? Nov 19 18:00:58 serenity: Try it? AFAIK, it corresponds (on the N8x0, at least) to volume down (zoom out). I don't have an xev patched to let you use the volume buttons on the N900 to verify this Nov 19 18:00:59 it doesnt have sticky feel Nov 19 18:01:25 any experience with zagg invisibleshields? Nov 19 18:01:28 qwerty12: ah ok, but there is no option via gui it seems Nov 19 18:01:49 serenity: Kinda pointless, when you can use the volume keys Nov 19 18:02:03 qwerty12: ok, thanks Nov 19 18:02:47 dneary, yes, it does overwrite the eMMC if you flash the eMMC image. Nov 19 18:03:04 "Nokia Italy has sent delivery confirmation for pre-orders this afternoon 3:30pm CET by mail ... Credit Cards have already been charged accordingly! Yuppieeee!" Nov 19 18:03:14 how does italy get it first? Nov 19 18:03:20 Nitial, I prefer the Boxwave. Nov 19 18:03:21 they bitch more? Nov 19 18:03:22 :P Nov 19 18:03:25 random Nov 19 18:03:36 Pressure from the Mafia Nov 19 18:03:50 Nitial, essentially scratch-proof, unlimited reapplications, good texture, good glare reduction. Nov 19 18:04:14 does Nitial give free replacement? Nov 19 18:04:28 the only thing i like about invisibleshield is they give free lifetime replacement Nov 19 18:04:34 BUT Nov 19 18:04:39 you need to send the old one back to them Nov 19 18:06:59 GeneralAntilles: did you ever notice any difference in sensitivity? Nov 19 18:07:08 Shapeshifter, no. Nov 19 18:07:11 I'm not used to resistive screens so I'll have to get used to it anyway. Nov 19 18:07:14 Shapeshifter, big reduction in smudging, too. Nov 19 18:07:19 mhh Nov 19 18:07:27 Just aim to tap with your fingernails instead of the pads. Nov 19 18:07:47 yeah. I'm still growing fingernails Nov 19 18:07:49 just for that. Nov 19 18:07:50 >.> Nov 19 18:08:05 I'm thinking about getting these http://cgi.ebay.de/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=310173919417 Nov 19 18:08:08 You don't need a lot of nail. Nov 19 18:08:20 GeneralAntilles: I have none ;) Nov 19 18:08:35 If you chew, that's a problem. Nov 19 18:08:38 But otherwise. . . . Nov 19 18:08:46 Shapeshifter, I strongly recommend the Boxwave. Nov 19 18:09:48 some options here for those who don't drink enough milk: http://www.fabparty.co.uk/acatalog/halloween-nails-noses-teeth.html Nov 19 18:10:38 I think #22334726 would be particularly effective :) Nov 19 18:10:46 lol Nov 19 18:10:52 oops, chop off the 726 Nov 19 18:11:03 Just hire qwerty12 to do your tapping for you. Nov 19 18:11:28 * qwerty12 isn't a gigolo... Nov 19 18:11:47 I hear he also does taping. Nov 19 18:11:48 but he's trying? Nov 19 18:11:52 hm, chrome os announcement today Nov 19 18:11:55 that's a meaning of "tapping" i'm not familiar with :P Nov 19 18:12:16 let your imagination run wild ;) Nov 19 18:12:24 erk Nov 19 18:12:37 Stskeeps, my apathy levels are absurdly high. Nov 19 18:12:49 GAN900: better to know the competition though Nov 19 18:13:03 Meh Nov 19 18:13:12 "nokia have advised that we will receive stock into our nokia retail stores to allow us to dispatch your n900 on the 3rd december." Nov 19 18:13:20 from nokia online store UK Nov 19 18:13:42 * GAN900 is really digging having rocker scrolling back in fBReader. Nov 19 18:13:43 they send it to retail stores first? :P Nov 19 18:14:08 Venomrush: no such mail for me. Nov 19 18:14:30 SpeedEvil, me neither just copied from the forum Nov 19 18:14:40 ah Nov 19 18:14:46 SpeedEvil, that guy ordered on the 1st Oct Nov 19 18:14:52 20 oct here Nov 19 18:14:59 21st oct here Nov 19 18:15:01 lol Nov 19 18:15:08 we'll probably get it in a few hours Nov 19 18:15:10 Venomrush: 'nokiaretail.co.uk' Nov 19 18:15:11 GeneralAntilles: did you ever try any others? Nov 19 18:15:23 ha! chrome OS. Nov 19 18:15:41 the email doesn't look too professional Nov 19 18:15:44 looks like a rush email Nov 19 18:16:22 Venomrush: nokiaretail looks like a mobilephonesdirect thing Nov 19 18:16:51 Does Maemo 5 uses the Matchbox WM? Nov 19 18:17:41 Venomrush: which may differ from shop.nokia.co.uk Nov 19 18:18:27 anyone else have ukeyboard offer an update which failed to work? Nov 19 18:18:42 Stskeeps, yes mate, mobilephonesdirect=nokiaretail but != shop.nokia.co.uk Nov 19 18:21:40 ah, the wonders of VB Nov 19 18:23:57 in .fi nokia has stated that they start "delivering" tomorrow (unfortunately probably delievered at earliest on monday) for preorders, selling in flagship store next friday and other retailers deliver to customers at earliest friday after that, per contract Nov 19 18:24:41 oh dear, chrome os is a cloud us Nov 19 18:24:42 os Nov 19 18:25:28 Pretty obvious, really. Nov 19 18:25:32 yeah :P Nov 19 18:25:32 Stskeeps: Is there a good writeup? Nov 19 18:25:40 http://www.engadget.com/2009/11/19/live-from-googles-chrome-os-project-announcement/#comments Nov 19 18:26:12 Stskeeps: Surely you did not expect more? I could tell, even by looking at that incomplete component list :) Nov 19 18:26:18 chrome OS is a joke Nov 19 18:26:21 qwerty12: true Nov 19 18:26:27 but good for linux. Nov 19 18:26:37 Départ des entrepôts estimé Vendredi 20 Novembre 2009 <<< Estimated date for sending 20th November 2009 ... tomorrow Nov 19 18:26:44 uh Nov 19 18:26:48 Khertan: wooo Nov 19 18:26:57 Shapeshifter: "OS" makes me crack up. Nov 19 18:27:05 yeah :D Nov 19 18:27:59 mahr Posted Nov 19th 2009 1:01PMHighly RankedJudging by Google's other services, Chrome OS should be awesome. Nov 19 18:28:04 lol engadget comments Nov 19 18:28:11 but lame, was expecting more to be honest :( Nov 19 18:29:01 chrome "OS" is probably also made by like 5 people Nov 19 18:29:29 so, that's all there is. It's a distro with some google "apps" Nov 19 18:29:50 but all I care it's linux and more people using linux means better/more drivers for everyone. Nov 19 18:29:53 Where's my Chrome vim? Nov 19 18:32:00 Ooh, Fuckin' A, Nokia. People: Please don't forget to umount your N900's eMMC. I just forgot, and I now get a device that is in a reboot loop Nov 19 18:32:44 lol Nov 19 18:32:53 qwerty12, unmount it when? Nov 19 18:32:58 qwerty12: what's this eMMC? Nov 19 18:33:26 emmc is the 32gig memory chip Nov 19 18:33:37 ah. Nov 19 18:33:42 ShadowJK: When done with it. I forgot to do so Nov 19 18:34:12 Grr, I'd expect weird behaviour when trying to use it, but a reboot loop is uncalled for Nov 19 18:34:25 so, when updating the firmware (if that is necessary at some point in the future on a retail device) one needs to umount the eMMC manually once the update is done? Nov 19 18:34:33 Then again, /home's home is on the eMMC Nov 19 18:34:45 qwerty12: what did you try to do? Nov 19 18:35:05 Stskeeps: Copy a file to it Nov 19 18:35:12 lol .... ChromeOS ... is just a web browser ... they want to target NetBook ... the things you use most of the time when you travel... so without connect or slow one ... it s stupid Nov 19 18:35:23 qwerty12, ... Nov 19 18:35:25 qwerty12, over usb? Nov 19 18:35:28 Yep Nov 19 18:35:31 ah. Nov 19 18:35:52 Oh, I see I forgot to say I mounted it over USB. Sorry Nov 19 18:35:55 init=/bin/firefox Nov 19 18:36:30 SpeedEvil: you'll need X in the kernel :-) Nov 19 18:37:35 compile firefox right into the kernel Nov 19 18:37:55 SpeedEvil, lol Nov 19 18:39:28 * SpeedEvil remembers back in hte day doing X+browser+kernel+networking on a 1.44 floppy Nov 19 18:39:31 though it was lynx Nov 19 18:40:07 lynx OS Nov 19 18:40:49 right. Any clues why nokia decided to push firefox to the n900? Nov 19 18:40:53 and not something webkit? Nov 19 18:41:20 gecko is quite the hog, or at least it's always been on the desktop. Nov 19 18:41:39 uh Nov 19 18:41:42 lcuk: ping Nov 19 18:42:00 Why would the make the switch when they've had it this long :) Nov 19 18:42:02 and already switched from opera once Nov 19 18:42:19 ShadowJK: on the n8xx it's already been firefox? Nov 19 18:42:33 MicroB, like on N900 Nov 19 18:42:40 and I read there was "tear" for those, which some people preffered Nov 19 18:42:58 I don't know if bundyo has made tear work on N900 yet :) Nov 19 18:43:11 It's in Extras-devel :) Nov 19 18:43:34 well, I strongly suspect webkit would run much faster on such weak hardware... Nov 19 18:43:46 * lardman|home curses his version of VB for not knowing about Short Nov 19 18:44:24 Shapeshifter, it's faster on most things, but extremely slow on some things Nov 19 18:44:28 it is? Nov 19 18:44:31 microb is more consistent :P Nov 19 18:44:32 I will here note that a couple of years ago I was using FF1.5 on a PII/300 with 800*600 display, and 96M of RAM, and it worked just fine. Nov 19 18:44:35 and it's even incorporated in Qt Nov 19 18:44:48 So for nokia it would _now_ be ideal. Nov 19 18:45:45 I suspect with tracemonkey, mozilla technology is taking the lead in speed agin Nov 19 18:45:47 again* Nov 19 18:46:10 Oh, tear's memory use is kinda unpleasant on Maemo4 Nov 19 18:46:31 tracemonkey is enabled in firefox >3.5 right? Nov 19 18:46:53 from what I'm reading. Nov 19 18:47:11 But midori and arora are both a lot faster then firefox, at least on my lap top. Nov 19 18:47:26 Is there any way to expose the OS over USB mass storage on the N900? Nov 19 18:47:32 I mean, 4x faster for many pages actually. Both lack features, but the difference in speed is striking. Nov 19 18:47:33 it's mostly consistently using more memory than microb, and triggering swapin/swapout in tiny bits all the time... microb seems to just have fits of rage when it gobs up a chunk of memory and spits out again, which results in a short stall, after which it resumes full speed... tear's behaviour makes for frequent stalls.. Nov 19 18:47:35 Shapeshifter: yes Nov 19 18:47:46 Lupu, not sanely Nov 19 18:47:49 Shapeshifter: (tracemonkey) Nov 19 18:48:03 ShadowJK: Your selection of words just got me curious :) Nov 19 18:48:04 Lupu: use sshfs Nov 19 18:48:15 over network Nov 19 18:48:20 works weel Nov 19 18:48:22 well Nov 19 18:48:32 Khertan: The whole point of it would be to fix things if I manage to get a reboot loop Nov 19 18:48:42 (they're much too easy to get) Nov 19 18:49:03 Lupu: there is no seperate 'mount via USB' chip Nov 19 18:49:06 on n900? Nov 19 18:49:10 Lupu: it's implemented as a gadget driver Nov 19 18:49:14 Lupu: it's part of the OS Nov 19 18:49:25 * Shapeshifter is watching top gear now. Nov 19 18:49:43 SpeedEvil: True, but it has much lower requirements to boot into mass storage mode when you attach it to USB when the device is turned off Nov 19 18:50:11 kernel still starts Nov 19 18:50:20 I imagine, same is true for charging Nov 19 18:50:27 For example, I managed to get it into a reboot loop by messing with pulseaudio settings. Nov 19 18:50:32 Lupu, well, you'd have to run the OS from somewhere else... and then the OS isn't stored on a block device, it's on a MTD, so you'd have to find some kernel module to present it as a block device... and then it's jffs2, which doesn't work on block devices, so you'd have to, on the computer side, dump the entire image into your own filesystem, modify it, recreate the image, upload the image, and hope all this bubblegum and jeesusteippi knows how to writ Nov 19 18:50:38 e it back properly... Nov 19 18:51:05 Ah, and I suppose USB mass storage only works on block devices? Nov 19 18:51:12 oh sorry it's ubifs not jffs2, but same limitations... Nov 19 18:51:14 Lupu, exactly Nov 19 18:52:02 Alright, thanks. Nov 19 18:53:02 a bootmenu + boot from sd thing would probably be more sensible setup if you want the ability to unhose it :) Nov 19 18:53:10 Shapeshifter, because WebKit was shit in 2006? Nov 19 18:53:17 provided you don't kill it during the installing of bootmenu and stuff.. Nov 19 18:53:27 GAN900: possibly Nov 19 18:53:38 Shapeshifter, besides, WebKit and Gecko are pretty close these days. Nov 19 18:53:39 indeed it was Nov 19 18:53:49 Sorry, that was rhetorical. Nov 19 18:58:09 Lupu: so yep a boot menu and a second os on the sd will be better Nov 19 18:58:25 Lupu: else keep near a desktop computer to reflash :) Nov 19 18:58:52 Or just support booting over nfs-3g Nov 19 18:59:55 anyone have any idea how to get sound working in a chroot on n900? the old alsa method doesnt work as maemo seems to use pulse nowadays... Nov 19 19:03:48 ShadowJK, Khertan: That certainly sounds interesting. Any recommended links on how to get started? Nov 19 19:04:18 Although I'll have to look into it later... Nov 19 19:04:23 but thanks in advance Nov 19 19:04:29 *AFK* :) Nov 19 19:08:08 hm where did everyone get their n900 from? i can't find any place shipping it Nov 19 19:08:16 nokia.co.uk Nov 19 19:08:37 but - no customers as yet have recieved them. Nov 19 19:08:49 yeah says "preorder" Nov 19 19:08:51 Only ones out there are prerelease and loans Nov 19 19:09:03 ah! Nov 19 19:09:23 that might explain why people keep telling me the final version has some stuff fixed Nov 19 19:12:20 http://share.ovi.com/media/Khertan.mymedia/Khertan.10002 <<< why i didn't have icon in the hildon.FileChooserDialog ? Nov 19 19:14:14 url isn't quite public Nov 19 19:14:31 not that I could answer your question, I just click at stuff randomly Nov 19 19:14:52 Khertan: "Hmm. This file is unavailable.There are two possible reasons for this. It's either been deleted from Ovi or made "private" by its owner." Nov 19 19:15:03 Hiya, yerga Nov 19 19:15:13 oups ... didn't find any .... public Nov 19 19:16:49 hum don't know how to make it public Nov 19 19:17:01 Upload it elsewhere, then :) Nov 19 19:17:04 I think it's per album Nov 19 19:17:18 "This page requires an Ovi membership", not nice :) Nov 19 19:17:46 kalikianatoli: Yep... And I had to dig out my Ovi information to get to a page I'm not allowed to look at :) Nov 19 19:17:52 heh Nov 19 19:17:57 double fail Nov 19 19:18:07 yeah, pick an album -> album settings Nov 19 19:18:10 qwerty12: yep Nov 19 19:18:23 Hi qwerty12 Nov 19 19:18:29 http://yfrog.com/cascreenshot2009111920014p <<< why i didn't have icon in the hildon.FileChooserDialog ? Nov 19 19:18:38 Khertan, I'd say it's a python problem Nov 19 19:18:51 Khertan, it happens in my applications too Nov 19 19:18:58 yerga ? ah sorry didn't see your answer Nov 19 19:19:16 ok ... something listed in the pymaemo bugs ? Nov 19 19:19:47 I haven't seen any bug about it Nov 19 19:20:35 ok ... i ll create one so :) Nov 19 19:21:13 ok, thanks Nov 19 19:22:26 Khertan, a minimal example will be nice :) Nov 19 19:22:33 just the time to make a minimal example Nov 19 19:22:37 lmoura: of course ! Nov 19 19:23:43 there's a GtkWarning in the terminal output: "GtkWarning: Invalid icon size 0" Nov 19 19:23:59 but I don't know if it is the culprit Nov 19 19:24:40 CromeOS revealed, Google insanity confirmed Nov 19 19:25:44 Hm... so let's see how long my upload request will take.. Nov 19 19:25:45 it's possibly 5 or 10 years too early :) Nov 19 19:25:49 qwerty12, I haven't said thanks for bug 5300 yet, so here you are: Thanks! Nov 19 19:25:51 Bug https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=5300 Support sending files via Bluetooth in file manager Nov 19 19:26:06 ShadowJK: more like 500-1000 :D Nov 19 19:26:08 yerga: Thanks :) Nov 19 19:26:19 and 5 years too late, you want to wait for technology to catch up so that there's enough bandwidth to suppirt this kind of thing, but you also want to do it BEFORE turning evil Nov 19 19:26:27 qwerty12, I have uploaded some docs to GoogleDocs from the filemanager through pixelpipe Nov 19 19:26:32 ShadowJK: you really think that cheap affordable fast internet will be everywhere within 5 years? :) Nov 19 19:26:38 qwerty12, everything worked fine Nov 19 19:27:04 wazd_, I'm just going on previous experience of how bandwidth has doubled :) Nov 19 19:27:11 yerga: Awesome. From the File manager, it works fine, but with other apps... :) Nov 19 19:27:34 ShadowJK: you in your appartments can have like 1GBit connection :) Nov 19 19:27:56 ShadowJK: my connection at the country doubled too. 0*2=0 :D Nov 19 19:29:07 2003 I had 10 megabytes, 2004 I had 100 megabytes, 2005 or so 64kbit/s unmetered, then it went up to 128kbit/s and 2 years ago to about 256kbit/s.. then another connection came and gave 1mbit/s :) Nov 19 19:29:35 lmoura: https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=6254 Nov 19 19:29:38 Bug 6254: FileChooserDialog didn't display files or folders icon Nov 19 19:30:33 Hi Nov 19 19:30:37 Khertan, thanks Nov 19 19:31:45 lmoura: for information : i'm using pymaemo-optify since 2 days and didn't notice lag or bug Nov 19 19:32:33 :) Nov 19 19:34:34 http://www.chromium.org/chromium-os Nov 19 19:35:27 Stskeeps: how fast mer boots on mature PC btw? :) Nov 19 19:35:39 wazd_: about as fast as ubuntu 9.04 Nov 19 19:36:03 I have an idea Nov 19 19:36:15 no, 0sec boot isn't sane Nov 19 19:36:16 :P Nov 19 19:36:21 let's boot browser first and then everything else :) Nov 19 19:36:33 hehe Nov 19 19:36:58 Just display a login wallpaper, than is the user happy! Nov 19 19:37:07 and google will be screwed :D Nov 19 19:37:13 isn't palm webOS all about booting the browser? ;P Nov 19 19:37:26 moo__: kinda Nov 19 19:37:42 Stskeeps: seriously, is it more possible than 0sec boot? :D Nov 19 19:38:05 of course all sorts of marketing tricks is possible Nov 19 19:38:17 Stskeeps: that's not marketing, it's a nice UX feature Nov 19 19:38:26 "it's like chrome... but in os form" Nov 19 19:38:30 Stskeeps: user can watch some pron before actual work :D Nov 19 19:38:30 next it'll be pog form Nov 19 19:38:35 and then the cycle will be complete Nov 19 19:39:11 Ok Nov 19 19:39:25 N900 is available in Italy mainly because 3 sim users there are unaffected. See bug report http://2.gp/ef7 Nov 19 19:39:27 wazd_: i bet i could sell a mer variant with instant porn access. Nov 19 19:39:40 Comment 10 Nov 19 19:43:19 arg. why is the eyes widget so damn popular? Nov 19 19:43:44 Anyone know of any success getting a Windows laptop to connect via BT or USB over the N900's data connection? Nov 19 19:43:49 eyes are the window to the soul, surely that applies to maemo too Nov 19 19:44:37 fernando__: Eyes Widget is awesome =) Nov 19 19:46:30 "Fast boot: We have improved boot performance by removing a lot of complexity that is normally found in PC firmware" Nov 19 19:46:36 _they_ have done it? Nov 19 19:46:54 wazd_: Big technical problems, though: what about h/w detection? Difficult to browse wihout a network connection or display... Nov 19 19:46:55 they take quite a lot of cred for what the linux community has made of linux lately. Nov 19 19:51:34 http://www.chromium.org/chromium-os/user-experience hmm Nov 19 19:51:42 sure is a browser, sure is Nov 19 19:52:10 Jaffa: you think it will take much to boot up display, touchpad/touchscreen and wifi? :) Nov 19 19:52:39 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mTFfl7AjNfI lol from 3:05 what a joke Nov 19 19:52:53 wazd_: I think it's not doing much more than that now Nov 19 19:53:06 "4 seconds". from what was that supposed to be? looked like a wake up from suspend to me, to a login screen. any linux does that. Nov 19 19:53:25 that was not a boot up. on most machines, even lap tops, you can hardly get by the BIOS is 3 seconds. Nov 19 19:53:29 rip off. Nov 19 19:54:03 Jaffa: how InstantOn is made then? :) Nov 19 19:57:13 Jaffa: USB yes. BT is not supported in the sales software Nov 19 19:58:15 * Shapeshifter hopes the n900s for switzerland arrived together with the ones for italy in genoa Nov 19 19:58:57 wazd_: Carefully controlling hardware, BIOS and software. i.e. not easily Nov 19 19:59:31 courmisch: Using PC Suite? Not sure I'll bother withe 32MB download, but handy to know. Nov 19 20:03:54 Jaffa: it's just a standard USB ACM interface. You can use the Microsoft PPP dialer like in the old days Nov 19 20:05:09 interesting Nov 19 20:05:17 Jaffa: well, if you'll consider devices like SmartQ 7 - hardware can't change, so maybe just remember it on the first run and then make no "check"? Sorry if I'm talking stupid :D Nov 19 20:05:33 I would never install PC Suite or any equivalent thing from other manufacturers.. Nov 19 20:07:16 When did windows gain native bluetooth stack btw? was it late XP or vista? I remember it was easier to "tether" with my phone over bluetooth with the native stack than with any of the non-microsoft stacks :) Nov 19 20:07:31 ShadowJK: XP Nov 19 20:08:01 * Jaffa has never seen a Windows XP with it, despite it supposedly being in SP2 Nov 19 20:08:23 It's in SP3 I know that for sure Nov 19 20:08:38 As that's what I'm using a BT dongle in that previously required a shitty driver that didn't work at all. Nov 19 20:08:43 Not properly anyway Nov 19 20:09:01 wazd_: didn't the question talk in terms of PCs, but yes, that is one trick you can do. Nov 19 20:09:51 Jaffa: well, laptops can use this trick too Nov 19 20:10:12 Vista could connect perfectly to internet over Irda to my previous cellphone too, with 0 extra software :) Nov 19 20:16:32 * RST38h moos at wazd Nov 19 20:17:51 ShadowJK: SP2 added BT support Nov 19 20:20:45 Haha, interesting size-comparison; The first S60 device from Nokia, 7650 vs. N900 --> http://i.afterdawn.com/storage/pictures/nokia_n900_vs_7650_2.jpg Nov 19 20:21:03 Bleh, systeminfowidget: http://pastebin.com/d2e0b4d6f Nov 19 20:21:38 looks like the least useful package ever :D Nov 19 20:22:13 Hehe Nov 19 20:22:14 * RST38h had 7650 Nov 19 20:22:21 kalikianatoli: you've not met scratchbox then? Nov 19 20:22:24 even programmed for it Nov 19 20:23:00 CoreFusion-: But the 7650 could recieve MMSes! Nov 19 20:23:02 * qwerty12_N810 hides Nov 19 20:23:05 lbt, I'm actually having fun with it regularly :-/ Nov 19 20:23:19 nm Nov 19 20:23:22 qwerty: Well...in a way Nov 19 20:23:36 it was a seriously buggy phone Nov 19 20:23:48 qwerty12_N810: indeed, it is superior to N900 Nov 19 20:23:49 I can imagine.. Nov 19 20:24:13 lbt, fun as in "fun" btw, not that you think I somehow like that thing :P Nov 19 20:24:45 * RST38h hears remote screams from tv, as yeti eats another poor chap Nov 19 20:24:57 -1 Nov 19 20:25:16 * lbt has become involved in a purification exercise wrt "the box" Nov 19 20:26:54 * qwerty12_N810 wonders if the systemwidgetinfo maintainer is around: simply forgot $(DESTDIR) in Makefile Nov 19 20:28:01 * RST38h puts a random but relevant tmo nickname to a recently eaten chap Nov 19 20:28:31 RST38h: From which "Why the fuck isn't my N900 here?" thread? Nov 19 20:28:49 qwerty: Oh, there is plenty of choice nowadays... Nov 19 20:29:03 I am missing our old inpatients dearly Nov 19 20:29:28 * lardman|home hits the sack Nov 19 20:36:10 like god 2.0, amazon has to deliver the nokia tablets to our moseses 2.0 just in time Nov 19 20:53:00 ah. one thing Nov 19 20:53:13 can someone with recent firmware on n900 do one thing for me? Nov 19 20:53:54 vhat? Nov 19 20:54:08 'dpkg -l *calendar*plpl' Nov 19 20:54:15 which revision it returns Nov 19 20:54:59 6.0+r7250+0m5 Nov 19 20:55:05 thx Nov 19 20:55:16 so Polish translation is OFFICIALLY fucked Nov 19 20:55:34 as I have same version in sdk Nov 19 20:56:11 http://marcin.juszkiewicz.com.pl/files/2009/11/pic5.jpg Nov 19 21:05:49 Nokia/trolltech/qt OT: isn't it fun, my friend spent helluva time trying to diagnose ./configure problems with the sources downloaded from ftp://ftp.trolltech.com/qt/source/ just because for whatever reasons all files there have braindamaged CRLF EOLs :( Works fine with "unzip -a" though but it's not exactly easy to guess. Nov 19 21:06:34 PaulFertser: use git :) Nov 19 21:06:38 why are crlfs a problem? Nov 19 21:06:44 ftp is for windoze Nov 19 21:06:57 RST38h: first of all, #/bin/sh^M is not a valid intepreter. Nov 19 21:07:04 ah Nov 19 21:07:08 RST38h: and other stuff like that, try yourself. Nov 19 21:07:15 yea, got it Nov 19 21:07:39 * RST38h kinda expected make to understand crlfs, but #/bin/sh^M thing is fucked Nov 19 21:07:59 lbt: (git) well... probably it's the best way but i hoped the devs can find some way to warn users. Not every Qt developer knows how to diagnose such nasty shell scripting problems. Nov 19 21:09:48 *nod* - worth mentioning in #qt - it could be a new thing Nov 19 21:10:12 RST38h: not only the intepreter line causes the problems, after fixing that other more mysterious issues surface. Nov 19 21:10:16 lbt: ok, will do. Nov 19 21:19:09 lbt: they told me it's a feature, not a bug :) windows really needs that and *nix users are supposed to download .tar.gz or .tar.bz2 Nov 19 21:19:36 http://promotions.newegg.com/Sweepstakes/NokiaN900/index.html?cm_sp=InfoCenter-_-NokiaSweeps-_-na Nov 19 21:20:10 what? MicroB doesn't allow me to Take over the world? Nov 19 21:20:21 PaulFertser: makes sense.... what sane linux user uses ftp ? Nov 19 21:20:23 bah. Can't be! I'm always right! I want my N900! Nov 19 21:20:56 lbt: none of my friends are sane Nov 19 21:21:17 what a silly questionaire. Nov 19 21:21:33 meh - 'open only to legal residents of the 49 United States' Nov 19 21:21:42 what would you expect? Nov 19 21:22:00 if they ask "Does Maemo 5 use Gtk+ or Qt?" 95% would answer Qt Nov 19 21:22:01 expected - but hope crushed. Nov 19 21:22:17 First Maemo phone with Raw Computer Power(limit 5 per customer) Nov 19 21:22:19 lol newegg Nov 19 21:22:24 Mh. Maybe it's time to order the n900. Nov 19 21:22:26 SpeedEvil: open only to legal residents of the 49 United States ??? Nov 19 21:22:31 * fernando__ entered the sweepstakes, btw :3 Nov 19 21:22:44 lbt: the sweepstake Nov 19 21:22:50 the survey has a sweepstake? Nov 19 21:22:56 only open to the US Nov 19 21:22:58 yes - win 3 n900 Nov 19 21:23:20 that video is new too, isn't it? Nov 19 21:24:10 SpeedEvil:the survey sent to -developer ? Nov 19 21:24:30 http://neor.planet.ee/livejournal/media_browser.jpg <- back to NEXT? :D Nov 19 21:24:30 * lbt is about to reply-all "Can you confirm that this survey has a sweepstake but us 2nd class, non-US people are not eligible to enter?" Nov 19 21:24:39 oh, 10 packages in the queue :( Nov 19 21:24:42 busy times Nov 19 21:24:48 oh Nov 19 21:24:51 lbt: no Nov 19 21:24:58 http://promotions.newegg.com/Sweepstakes/NokiaN900/index.html?cm_sp=InfoCenter-_-NokiaSweeps-_-na Nov 19 21:25:00 VDVsx: More like a slow autobuilder... Nov 19 21:25:03 chromeos uses skydrive? lol Nov 19 21:25:05 just checking :) Nov 19 21:25:52 lbt, worked for me :) Nov 19 21:26:20 wazd_, is that crome OS ? Nov 19 21:26:26 *chrome Nov 19 21:26:48 Nov 19 21:26:51 VDVsx: yep Nov 19 21:27:02 Q1 Which country do you live in? A : UK...... error.... must be at least 4 chars.... Nov 19 21:27:10 plonkers Nov 19 21:27:18 lol Nov 19 21:27:24 "The UK" Nov 19 21:27:26 lbt: "We Owned Your Ass" Nov 19 21:27:39 Shapeshifter, surely, and Mozilla didn't make the browser, but a free N900 is a free N900. ;) Nov 19 21:27:50 qwerty12_N810: "Original and best" Nov 19 21:27:58 Hehe Nov 19 21:28:38 lbt: The united kingdom of great britain and northern ireland. Nov 19 21:28:52 http://promotions.newegg.com/Sweepstakes/NokiaN900/vid/player.swf?vcastr_file=MaemosoftwareNokia.flv&IsAutoPlay=1&IsContinue=1 Nov 19 21:29:01 so what is that future crew window on the top left? Nov 19 21:29:12 when the task switcher is first shown Nov 19 21:29:46 oh, that video is new. Nov 19 21:29:52 yeah Nov 19 21:30:28 "Normally it takes about 15-30 minutes for the package to be processed." <- Lies :P Nov 19 21:30:33 it looks like a star wars game lol Nov 19 21:32:16 demo created by Future Crew for Assembly '93 demoparty Nov 19 21:32:26 ah, thanks Nov 19 21:33:54 (loving the maemo marketing dept. choice in promo video music, btw) Nov 19 21:34:06 * timeless visits Kamp Cafe Nov 19 21:34:27 (which closes promptly at 11:30pm) Nov 19 21:34:48 speedevil: did you get an n900? Nov 19 21:35:06 hehe, someone from the scene in the marketing clearly Nov 19 21:35:08 timeless: A picture of the sign, please Nov 19 21:35:24 um, i don't have maemo recorder Nov 19 21:35:45 the waiter person tried to send me to the (intoxicated) bar Nov 19 21:36:07 this place is quieter and more comfortable Nov 19 21:36:40 what's my bugs.maemo.org password? Nov 19 21:36:50 secret Nov 19 21:36:54 A sec... Nov 19 21:37:07 i<3safari Nov 19 21:37:17 where is my device! Nov 19 21:37:18 boooo! Nov 19 21:37:30 mza: Next to me Nov 19 21:37:36 * lbt pets his device Nov 19 21:37:44 mza: my device is on loan Nov 19 21:37:44 mza italy and usa are happy i thought Nov 19 21:37:44 you are all evil. Nov 19 21:37:45 mza: qwerty12_N810 is using it to gather dust Nov 19 21:37:51 * lbt must write a "purr" app... Nov 19 21:37:56 it went to the usa w/o me Nov 19 21:38:07 they said it would ship next week:( Nov 19 21:38:16 why is everyone saying it shipped this week? Nov 19 21:38:18 mza, they always say that Nov 19 21:38:18 so frustrating Nov 19 21:38:20 :-D Nov 19 21:38:31 Hi everyone. Has anyone in the Netherlands allready received a N900 ? Nov 19 21:38:41 jhp: no. Nov 19 21:38:41 has the N900 shipped already? Nov 19 21:38:44 Or anywhere else in Europe ? Nov 19 21:38:49 jhp: nobody has received one. Nov 19 21:38:53 javis: they just cancelled dpp orders Nov 19 21:38:53 .. Nov 19 21:39:03 or, at least, put the money back into accounts Nov 19 21:39:06 just relax. Nov 19 21:39:10 jhp: Man, you should've gone to the Summit... Nov 19 21:39:11 RST38h: aaaaah you though you were going to make me have a heart attack, but NO! I read the news previously. Nov 19 21:39:23 and also didn't order it, so ... Nov 19 21:39:24 :) Nov 19 21:39:26 iirc they had similar problems w/ n800/n810 orders Nov 19 21:39:34 mza, two definitions of shipping, shipping to resellers, and shipping to ustomer is diff, nokia put an official statement it was released in usa this week, ppl in italy on maemo say there devices are being shipped Nov 19 21:39:48 have any of the maemo devs started working on on portrait mode?;) Nov 19 21:39:57 timeless: You'd think "third time lucky", but no... Nov 19 21:40:01 someone even ordered the n800? how can someone order something that's not a phone!?! Nov 19 21:40:03 kynky, thx:) Nov 19 21:40:06 mza, i thought they had Nov 19 21:40:18 mza: If a developer wants it in their app, then yes (for their app) Nov 19 21:40:26 i know they acheived portrait mode on the N810 Nov 19 21:40:46 aparntly portait version of web browser being worked on Nov 19 21:40:54 that's so bad assed Nov 19 21:41:12 mza, I think several Extras apps will support it, but probably only browser and phone from the official apps Nov 19 21:41:28 i can deal with that Nov 19 21:41:36 so f'n excited Nov 19 21:41:40 fwiw, i'm annoyed Nov 19 21:41:41 me2 Nov 19 21:41:51 there's an issue with rotation performance, that will hopefully be resolved soon Nov 19 21:41:52 excited and annoyed, lol Nov 19 21:42:00 So, basicly it hasn't shipped yet ? Nov 19 21:42:02 i have an n900 and nokia(usa).com won't offer me pcsuite for it Nov 19 21:42:04 * Shapeshifter isn't able to work anymore and instead just sits around sipping tea checking the forums every couple of minutes and writing pointless things like this in IRC. Man... I sure hope I'll get the n900 in two weeks time or else I'll fall behind with work. Nov 19 21:42:23 timeless, who needs that anyway? :P Nov 19 21:42:27 timeless: With the PC Suite, one download fits all Nov 19 21:42:38 jhp: no it hasn't. I'm guessing the devices are on trucks to distributors by now. Nov 19 21:42:43 is there a pc suite for mac either way? Nov 19 21:42:47 Shapeshifter, set up live feeds :) for that instant update feeling Nov 19 21:42:59 timeless: I was pleasantly surprised to find out it worked when I tried it in September, even Nov 19 21:43:00 so what's the RCA output like? will it do DVD quality? Nov 19 21:43:11 jhp: with italy already covered as the devices most likely arrived in genoa. just a guess. Nov 19 21:43:24 but... Nov 19 21:43:25 mza, if you call 480p dvd quality, then yeah i guess :) Nov 19 21:43:33 wow! Nov 19 21:43:35 that's not bad at all Nov 19 21:43:41 Though... thiking about it, it probably didn't even ship by ship Nov 19 21:43:52 that would've taken too long from korea. Nov 19 21:43:58 takes like 3 weeks or so from korea to italy. Nov 19 21:43:59 mza, actually watching vids on the device is quite enjoyable Nov 19 21:43:59 zune does 720p, and creative zii egg phone does 1080p out Nov 19 21:44:07 the high DPI makes it possible Nov 19 21:44:20 Shapeshifter: FWIW, the N900 pre-prod. model I have is made in Finland Nov 19 21:44:32 dvd video is usually 720/704×480 (NTSC) or 720/704×576 (PAL) Nov 19 21:44:44 oh Nov 19 21:44:46 hrm Nov 19 21:44:47 the snes with wiimote on tv is good demo, bounce on tv, quak3 on tv, all on youtube for n900 Nov 19 21:44:52 qwerty12_N810: I know. But I thought production is going on in asia. Would be a bit odd if it didn't. Especially as the device isn't even that expensive. Nov 19 21:45:03 also n900 will be one of first with flash 10.1 Nov 19 21:45:04 korea iirc. Nov 19 21:45:09 qwerty12_N810: mine is just "designed in finland" Nov 19 21:45:17 im hoping mlb.tv works Nov 19 21:45:18 Production models are made in korea Nov 19 21:45:21 that would be SICK Nov 19 21:45:31 flash? N900 will support flash? :((( Nov 19 21:45:44 it supports flash9.4 already Nov 19 21:45:51 Nokia's so called beta production line is in finland Nov 19 21:46:03 btw Khertan, would you also consider removing the "close: yes no" dialogue? it breaks closing from the task switcher Nov 19 21:46:23 PaulFertser, please chill out on the zealotism. Nov 19 21:46:24 or maybe conditionalize it Nov 19 21:46:26 lbt: Label on this one says "Made in Finland" but that cost me the N900 label in the top-right corner Nov 19 21:46:33 Normal people want to watch movies of other normal people doing stupid shit. Nov 19 21:46:46 kynky: not a chance of flash 10.1 Nov 19 21:47:02 timeless, they announced it for next year. Nov 19 21:47:07 It was the first device they demoed, too. Nov 19 21:47:07 yeah, well... Nov 19 21:47:12 really? url? Nov 19 21:47:15 timeless, already announced i thought, a few days ago, gettig same time as webos iirc Nov 19 21:47:21 vmware demoed vmware too. Nov 19 21:47:28 they demoed it on an android device wasn't it? Nov 19 21:47:33 vmware demod vmware for the n800 Nov 19 21:47:51 bah, no one tells me anything Nov 19 21:47:54 The MLB.TV Media Player is built on Adobe Flash Player and requires Flash Player 9.0.115 Nov 19 21:47:55 (unrelated, but anyone here tried garnet VM on the N900?) Nov 19 21:47:55 woot Nov 19 21:47:56 :) Nov 19 21:47:57 Yeah, but they didn't announce a release. Nov 19 21:48:12 timeless, they know you'll just try to make their lives more difficult if they do. *eg* Nov 19 21:48:18 mza: we have something like 9 0 246 Nov 19 21:48:27 i hear it chokes playing hulu Nov 19 21:48:35 http://blogs.forum.nokia.com/blog/alessandro-paces-forum-nokia-blog/2009/10/06/nokia-n900-running-flash-10.1-for-mobile Nov 19 21:48:36 gan: was they nokia or adobe? Nov 19 21:48:41 the flash team is not known for their speed (amd64 flash anyone?) Nov 19 21:48:47 mza, my Atom machines can't even play Hulu Nov 19 21:48:47 GeneralAntilles: it's not about being a zealot. Do you personally consider flash (and especially the way it's used mostly) a good _technology_. Good as _superior_. Not talking about free software/religious aspects. Nov 19 21:48:48 Adobe Nov 19 21:48:55 mza: yeah, i tried hulu when i was stateside, it didn't work Nov 19 21:49:02 some of mtv did though Nov 19 21:49:08 the n900 > * Nov 19 21:49:14 the guy from mtv was impressed Nov 19 21:49:22 PaulFertser: no, it's abysmal. Still, most people need it. Even me. And I hate flash. Nov 19 21:49:22 PaulFertser, I consider it a necessary technology to help sell open source to consumers. Nov 19 21:49:26 and thus make more opensource. Nov 19 21:49:29 PaulFertser: there's no discussing flash. Nov 19 21:49:33 or the neccessity of it. Nov 19 21:49:38 i wish hulu would create a low quality stream for things Nov 19 21:49:43 timeless, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U3F2OpVWJCs may be this. Nov 19 21:49:46 i think most ppl hate flash, but alot need it Nov 19 21:49:54 i think once more mainstream devices get flash, they will Nov 19 21:50:14 Nope, wrong vid Nov 19 21:50:18 Which one is it. . . . Nov 19 21:50:20 nah, they'll probably make a dedicated iphone app and charge for it :D Nov 19 21:50:34 yeah...hopefully flash can be replaced with html sooner rather than later Nov 19 21:50:45 Aaaah, timeless, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pee3nT4bPw4 Nov 19 21:50:58 dmj726: xml rather. Nov 19 21:51:19 dmj726, blame apple and ms, for why the lag, ie dont support video tag, and apple dont support ogg video iirc Nov 19 21:51:29 most flash can be replaced with html 5 Nov 19 21:51:39 dmj726: ah right. canvas Nov 19 21:51:43 it's cool. Nov 19 21:51:43 Oh believe me I do blame them Nov 19 21:52:15 well most ppl use flash for videos, where flash isnt really needed, it just a bad universal container, and the other main us of flash i see is for ads Nov 19 21:52:17 anyone else getting 'operation failed' a lot with the n900 camera? Nov 19 21:52:41 by the way, did people get invited to the maemo summit? Who received a device and who didn't? Nov 19 21:52:50 Windows and Mac are the only Operating systems that can't seem to ship with an html 5 / ogg enabled browser Nov 19 21:53:18 Shapeshifter: everyone at the summit that didnt work for nokia got one I think Nov 19 21:53:41 realitygaps: so, one could just pop over and get one for a year? >.> Nov 19 21:53:44 Even Flash animation shouldn't really be presented with Flash Nov 19 21:53:44 Shapeshifter: and it was open invitation anyone could sign up Nov 19 21:53:53 Shapeshifter: 6 months Nov 19 21:53:58 6 months. Nov 19 21:54:07 I see. Nov 19 21:54:14 Shapeshifter, yep - but noone knew that when they signed up for the summit Nov 19 21:54:19 mhhhm Nov 19 21:54:23 so it was generally serious ppl heading to amsterdam i think Nov 19 21:54:27 kynky: flv is not flash i think. And it's supported by all modern players, so that's not a problem. Problem is that some think they need to ship shit (skype, flash etc) to the customers or else they won't buy otherwise perfect device. Nov 19 21:54:28 dmj726, microsofts answer, silverlight, :( Nov 19 21:54:57 PaulFertser: which is entirely justified >.> Nov 19 21:55:02 Shapeshifter: probably Nov 19 21:55:02 silverlight is worse than flash Nov 19 21:55:13 PaulFertser, its just that flash can be easily supported as embedded in browesrs, if i wanted to i can play flv in mplayer Nov 19 21:55:14 Shapeshifter: but it's too sad to admit Nov 19 21:55:25 Sivlerlight works on barely anything I use. Nov 19 21:55:28 PaulFertser, you can't change the world overnight. Nov 19 21:55:44 realitygaps, although judging by some of the people who got devices there there were some silly ones mixed in, too. ;) Nov 19 21:55:44 i wonder if the device would be powerful enough to transcode flash Nov 19 21:55:53 the linux moonlight port of silverlight is way behind Nov 19 21:56:06 an always will be Nov 19 21:56:42 moonlight is not fully oss Nov 19 21:56:48 since we can't exactly make it our own without defeating the point of moonlight (compatibility)...same situation as WINE Nov 19 21:56:50 so, forget about it on non x86 platforms Nov 19 21:57:33 ...so it'll always be catchup...and browser spoofing etc Nov 19 21:57:35 well silverlight is supposed to be used for ui on winmo7, and that targets arm architecture Nov 19 21:57:53 kynky: moonlight Nov 19 21:58:02 dmj726, my bad Nov 19 21:58:28 Care to install windows mobile on the n900? Nov 19 21:58:38 GeneralAntilles: hope you werent referring to me :) yes there were a few people who came along to see the summit and got lucky, i know at least one in NL Nov 19 21:58:41 but in a way if we get the vm working on n900, then in a way you have silverlight support Nov 19 21:58:48 realitygaps, no, not you. Nov 19 21:58:52 realitygaps, blogger types, mostly. Nov 19 21:59:20 GeneralAntilles: yep there were some media types around. but also a couple of randoms who just thought oh-that looks like a cool summit im gonna go as im in NL Nov 19 21:59:27 dmj726, they got wince working and andrid working on n900 via vm Nov 19 21:59:30 how long before android is ported?;) Nov 19 21:59:32 GeneralAntilles: some drupal people i met for example Nov 19 21:59:38 realitygaps: How's the BBC iPlayer stuff going? /me has been missing his dose of Eastenders recently... Nov 19 21:59:47 android runs on the N810 Nov 19 22:00:09 dont see why it cant be ported to the N900 Nov 19 22:00:14 not saying i want android, i hated my G1 Nov 19 22:00:15 still be neat Nov 19 22:00:29 mza, better off porting the JVM Nov 19 22:00:31 qwerty12_N810: ive been using it to dl eastenders :) but streaming is a no go so far from my trials. got no place left on the device for an unoptified mplayer either anymore Nov 19 22:00:35 Running full Android is entirely pointless. Nov 19 22:00:54 heh Nov 19 22:00:55 once the jvm ported, we get lots of potential extras :) Nov 19 22:01:24 * timeless chuckles Nov 19 22:01:43 * simula is happy with Qt Nov 19 22:01:47 turns out my cousin works for a company which wrote software for the n800/n810 Nov 19 22:01:52 realitygaps, want to join forces Nov 19 22:02:01 realitygaps: Heh. :) Maybe try gstreamer-ffmpeg and see if they play in the default media player? :) Nov 19 22:02:07 realitygaps, i can get the streaming working with gstreamer Nov 19 22:02:11 kynky: mm i've seen some metions about jamelino or what its called. is that project going forwards ? Nov 19 22:02:17 * qwerty12_N810 thanks zaheerm-lp again for gstreamer-ffmpeg Nov 19 22:02:45 zaheerm-lp: cool what can i do to enable that? Nov 19 22:02:47 my plan for zoutube was to have iplayer support too Nov 19 22:02:48 that in extras-devel ? Nov 19 22:03:10 kynky, yah it'll move to extras-testing when i push zoutube there Nov 19 22:03:15 jani: jalimo? Nov 19 22:03:15 oh. so its that far already =) Nov 19 22:03:15 timeless, just one big happy Maemo family, eh? ;) Nov 19 22:03:15 * realitygaps thinks zoutube kicks ass :) but is still on -10 as the later version didnt play videos anymore Nov 19 22:03:22 zaheerm-lp, sweet Nov 19 22:03:23 timeless: something like that =) Nov 19 22:03:32 realitygaps, oh shit, doesn't it? Nov 19 22:03:47 zaheerm, actually i think it was the search that didnt work anymore, havent tried in a coupla days Nov 19 22:03:54 realitygaps, oh i fixed that :) Nov 19 22:04:12 zaheerm, oh cool ill grab a newer version then Nov 19 22:04:13 zaheerm-lp: any progress on zope? Nov 19 22:04:17 latest version in extras-devel has that working, i broke it when adding gpodder integration Nov 19 22:04:27 there is gpodder integration? Nov 19 22:04:41 stupid question time... Nov 19 22:04:51 when you take a picture, does to make a snapping noise? Nov 19 22:04:54 realitygaps, yep, select the menu on the video list (screen with thumbnails), and it allows you to subscribe to that list with gpodder Nov 19 22:05:00 i hate that about my blackberry Nov 19 22:05:09 zaheerm, installing from devel right now... Nov 19 22:05:23 mza: mine just goes 'operation failed' when i try to take a pic :) Nov 19 22:05:36 realitygaps, dont tell me that! Nov 19 22:05:47 i am currently working on a nice way to have full screen video and the controls (play/pause + seekbar) Nov 19 22:05:48 mza: no-one else seems to have that problem, yet... Nov 19 22:05:50 this device is what i've been waiting for, FOREVER Nov 19 22:06:02 mza: yeah me too, dont worry it is THAT device :) Nov 19 22:06:04 mza: Hehe, I remember patching my Sony Ericsson to remove that, too... But if you're in Silent mode, it doesn't make a noise Nov 19 22:06:07 ive been looking for "the perfect device" for soooo long Nov 19 22:06:24 lots of apps dont do sound with silent mode on, like zoutube didnt last time i tried and also the radio Nov 19 22:06:24 mza me2 Nov 19 22:06:25 dmj726, just got back from bcn last night, want to fix it this weekend Nov 19 22:06:27 heya Nov 19 22:06:29 zaheerm...how about being able to swipe in the controls Nov 19 22:06:32 hello realitygaps Nov 19 22:06:46 dmj726, swipe to previous video? Nov 19 22:07:05 dmj726, or swipe from bottom to bring controls Nov 19 22:07:09 oh.. does anyone here have a media player that doesn't suck Nov 19 22:07:18 ok...I have a break next week, so I'm hoping I can port an app that needs zope Nov 19 22:07:21 * javispedro remembers oldie palmos where he basically had to HOPE applications wouldn't make sounds when muted Nov 19 22:07:25 my n900 is on loan to someone who used it Nov 19 22:07:26 even though n900 is pretty powerful, dont think alot of reviewers who mark n900 down alot, realise its awesome potential Nov 19 22:07:26 swipe to bring in controls Nov 19 22:07:26 i really want to make it a business device Nov 19 22:07:33 * realitygaps trying to get amsn with webcam to work Nov 19 22:07:34 which means, iCal(caldav) Nov 19 22:07:43 and push mail Nov 19 22:07:45 woah... Amazon just bumped up the price by $50 Nov 19 22:07:46 hey timeless :) how r u ? Nov 19 22:07:54 http://marcin.juszkiewicz.com.pl/2009/11/19/played-a-bit-with-maemo-5-sdk/ Nov 19 22:07:54 was thinking i might compile my own MTA Nov 19 22:07:55 and he just demod that the movies thing has no useful jumping w/in a movie Nov 19 22:08:00 and run imapd against localhost Nov 19 22:08:02 it is now $609 before rebate! Nov 19 22:08:15 beware nokia maemo team! Nov 19 22:08:16 and when you leave a movie, you can't see which movie you just watched Nov 19 22:08:22 ;D Nov 19 22:08:23 * hrw|gone -> sleep Nov 19 22:08:27 mza, should be eeasy enough to port1 i would have thought Nov 19 22:08:31 timeless, useful jumping? Nov 19 22:08:36 which sucks if your movies were all filmed w/ your n900 on the same day Nov 19 22:08:41 * javispedro has nearly a gigabyte of iceweasel core dumps (probably all of them caused by libflashplayer.so) Nov 19 22:08:43 zaheerm: "seeking" Nov 19 22:08:53 kynky, yea, i wanna try postfix and dovecot:-P use dyndns to deliver mail to my phone Nov 19 22:08:56 timeless, the media player has seeking Nov 19 22:08:56 prolly sounds crazy Nov 19 22:09:15 zaheerm: the n900 was running the summit release Nov 19 22:09:32 and the movies were recorded w/ the n900 camera app in video mode Nov 19 22:09:46 each time i tried to seek, it just closed the movie Nov 19 22:10:59 ah, gstreamer. Nov 19 22:11:30 also, can someone tell me if there's a filed bug for the fact that calendar doesn't have a day picker that shows a molnth view? Nov 19 22:11:57 qwerty12_N810: is the fbreader in extras-devel with the volume switch page turn patch? Nov 19 22:12:00 timeless, it works fine for me Nov 19 22:12:01 if one wants to setup an event (or recurrence) one doesn't usually want to manually add 7 to the date Nov 19 22:12:14 realitygaps: Nope, just the one on qwerty12.qole.org Nov 19 22:12:36 i searched and didn't find a calendar bug, but i'm sick/exhausted Nov 19 22:12:40 realitygaps: Not my work, so I can't just upload... Nov 19 22:12:48 timeless, how do you mean day picker that shows a month view? Nov 19 22:12:48 qwerty12_N810: ah, just got offered an update so thought it might be. Read around 400 pages already thanks to that patch :) Nov 19 22:12:54 gan: that movie isn't playing nicely Nov 19 22:12:58 realitygaps, do you have python code to get iplayer programme details etc.? Nov 19 22:13:02 timeless, which? Nov 19 22:13:21 zaheerm-lp: nope ive been running get-iplayer and the cgi web interface in qoles chroot Nov 19 22:13:26 edgar: most calendar apps let you see a grid w/ a month of days Nov 19 22:13:37 zaheerm, the easy way not the right way Nov 19 22:13:39 so you can say "ah, a week from friday" by finding friday and clicking the box below it Nov 19 22:13:39 realitygaps, get-iplayer is perl right? Nov 19 22:13:47 yep afaik Nov 19 22:13:55 the calendar app has a month view Nov 19 22:13:58 ok so will need a little translation Nov 19 22:14:10 but you can't use that from inside create event Nov 19 22:14:48 realitygaps, the iphone/ipod touch iplayer videos should be fine with the dsp codecs in gstreamer on the n900 Nov 19 22:15:14 realitygaps, so the trick is to figure out the urls and handle the metadata Nov 19 22:15:19 zaheerm, i can watch them in the media player (occasionally they crash but could be a bad dl) but no stream.... Nov 19 22:15:52 zaheerm, i can run it and give you the error if you like Nov 19 22:15:59 realitygaps, please do Nov 19 22:16:18 zaheerm, as the web interface attempts to open the media player... give me a coupla minutes just finishing up testing amsn and chatting with the dev on #amsn Nov 19 22:16:34 sure Nov 19 22:16:57 i see, you were pointing at the lack overview when deciding the date of an event Nov 19 22:17:29 edgar: again, it's also for picking an end date Nov 19 22:17:45 yeah, start date and end date Nov 19 22:17:48 if it were obly a one time event thing Nov 19 22:17:59 very useful for creating recurring events Nov 19 22:18:04 the ui team could say "oh, just use the month view first" Nov 19 22:18:19 but that's bogus for repeating events Nov 19 22:18:19 zaheerm, the gpodder integration is great! Nov 19 22:18:45 realitygaps, :) Nov 19 22:18:51 can anyone trigger https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=6228 ? i can't Nov 19 22:18:52 Bug 6228: scandinavian letters (Ã¥, ä, ö) not recognized when keyboard-creating an event Nov 19 22:19:08 i filed that one. Nov 19 22:19:14 but i'm using ukeyboard (one ver out of date) and an old os image Nov 19 22:21:32 and can reproduce it still Nov 19 22:21:43 fw 42-11 on a summit device Nov 19 22:21:45 realitygaps, i'm not sure how well gpodder works with youtube atom feeds, but thp suggested adding it to zoutube so yah hopefully it does work well Nov 19 22:21:51 edgar2: recruit confirmation here :) Nov 19 22:22:00 VDVsx: I (mis)read that as "MS Researcher" and jumped :p Nov 19 22:22:20 qwerty12_N810, heheh Nov 19 22:22:31 so you're saying you can reproduce the bug 6228 (using the finnish-swedish keyboard layout)? Nov 19 22:22:32 Bug https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=6228 scandinavian letters (Ã¥, ä, ö) not recognized when keyboard-creating an event Nov 19 22:22:37 zaheerm, ive subscribe to a couple of searches and they seem to been downloading ok Nov 19 22:22:44 realitygaps, great Nov 19 22:22:47 i'm saying it worksforme Nov 19 22:22:49 qwerty12_N810, fyi MS$ PT loves me :P Nov 19 22:22:52 zaheerm, getting iplayer.cgi up and running now Nov 19 22:22:57 i get those chars Nov 19 22:23:28 even when you start an event? Nov 19 22:23:35 VDVsx: Wait until I send them a link to the Community Council Wiki page :p Nov 19 22:23:55 because that's when i don't. Ã¥ ä ö gets recognized only after the event window has been created Nov 19 22:24:26 qwerty12_N810, the funny thing it that I received a academy prize from them, that was funny :P Nov 19 22:24:44 the nokia store in HEL is remodeling *now* Nov 19 22:24:56 mhhh, how sweet is that. I'll be able to use nfs on my n900 right? Just like a real computer? right? right? :D overjoyed of that thought Nov 19 22:24:56 so note that when the event title is already visible, Ã¥ ä ö input is ok. Nov 19 22:25:10 but not before. Nov 19 22:25:13 VDVsx: Hehe :P Nov 19 22:26:49 zaheerm, any idea what resolution i should try stream at? Nov 19 22:27:14 zaheerm, and flv or mov? Nov 19 22:27:38 realitygaps, how does it stream it? Nov 19 22:27:45 realitygaps, over rtmp or http? Nov 19 22:27:58 zaheerm, i think over http but im not sure Nov 19 22:28:01 the mp4 would be http Nov 19 22:28:13 i think i broke image viewer Nov 19 22:28:18 what is streaming it, get_iplayer or bbc? Nov 19 22:28:23 ls Nov 19 22:28:32 -la Nov 19 22:28:41 oh no, not stupid z-order again Nov 19 22:28:46 =) Nov 19 22:28:54 zaheerm, get_iplayer is streaming it.. actually a browser error /var/tmp could not be saved because an unknown error occurred. Nov 19 22:29:06 zaheerm, must have got the mediaplayer error a different way Nov 19 22:29:16 realitygaps, ok not sure how get_iplayer works... Nov 19 22:29:23 zaheerm, get_iplayer has a web pvr interface so im trying to click in the browser to stream it out Nov 19 22:29:27 just downloaded it to read Nov 19 22:29:36 * VDVsx suspects that the autobuilder is stuck :( Nov 19 22:29:36 realitygaps, find yourself a UPnP server? Nov 19 22:30:00 zaheerm, im running the get_iplayer.cgi for pvr functions - http://linuxcentre.net/getiplayer/get_iplayer-pvr-manager Nov 19 22:30:14 GeneralAntilles: not sure i understand Nov 19 22:30:15 there is an n95_wifi iplayer profile Nov 19 22:31:04 realitygaps, you're trying to stream media content to the tablet? Nov 19 22:31:11 has anyone with an n900 tried running nfs on it and getting files from another box, as well as running the server to see the space on another box? Nov 19 22:31:59 GeneralAntilles: trying to stream live bbc tv (and recorded show streams) from the bbc iplayer website Nov 19 22:32:20 zaheerm, using the iplayer.cgi, commands like mplayer -cache 1024 "http://localhost/iplayer?ACTION=stream&PROGTYPES=livetv&PID=&MODES=flashnormal&OUTTYPE=nnn.flv" should work Nov 19 22:32:22 realitygaps, ok i see the --stream option that streams it to stdout, having a look at the code Nov 19 22:32:59 realitygaps, so that should work also with gst-launch playbin uri="http://......." too Nov 19 22:33:10 realitygaps, ah, nevermind. Nov 19 22:33:18 zaheerm, ok ill try that Nov 19 22:33:18 actually Nov 19 22:33:30 someone wrote a coherence backend for iplayer Nov 19 22:33:38 so that is one possibility Nov 19 22:34:09 n900 now available in USA Nov 19 22:34:17 pre-orders pick up at flagship stores Nov 19 22:34:35 Venomrush, cool Nov 19 22:34:49 Venomrush: at least, that's what they say Nov 19 22:35:19 Shapeshifter, people already picked theirs up, see http://2.gp/ege Nov 19 22:35:30 do those iplayer backends work in other countries? Nov 19 22:35:39 dmj726, no Nov 19 22:35:47 Venomrush: no, they say they are going to pick it up, and I don't see any pictures. Nov 19 22:35:55 dmj726, they have geoip blocking Nov 19 22:36:04 n900 have tunneling capabilities? Nov 19 22:36:09 ssh Nov 19 22:36:11 yep Nov 19 22:36:17 Shapeshifter, you'll see it soon enough in an hour or two once they get home.. Nov 19 22:36:20 its linux :) Nov 19 22:36:27 Venomrush: I sure hope so ;) Nov 19 22:36:51 dmj726: It's your fault for being so stingy with Hulu Nov 19 22:36:51 can go through a uk based vpn, and ppl from uk can use a usa vpn to get hulu Nov 19 22:37:07 dmj726: So we have to be like that with iPlayer Nov 19 22:37:48 Yeah...I never thought the whole geoip blocking made much actual sense. Nov 19 22:38:20 openvpn you can use Nov 19 22:38:39 iplayer is paid for by our tv licence feeds Nov 19 22:38:41 dmj726, bbc is funded by uk tv license, apparantly some ppl dont think non license payers should get to see the content Nov 19 22:38:42 dmj726: They don't claim it's secure; but it's enough to satisfy the rights holders. Nov 19 22:38:51 yanks don't pay for it :) Nov 19 22:39:14 bbc has no adverts or product placement Nov 19 22:39:15 They're only promoting p2p Nov 19 22:39:21 kynky: Also, in many cases (Heroes, other imported TV shows, background music etc.) the BBC doesn't have the rights to make them available outside the UK. Nov 19 22:39:32 Jaffa, yep Nov 19 22:39:46 dmj726: No, they promote iPlayer (or Hulu, or whatever). That many people can get around it isn't the point. Nov 19 22:39:52 Jaffa, btw are you the man behind the xml feeds at bleb ? Nov 19 22:39:52 note the wording *actual* sense...not legalese sense Nov 19 22:39:58 zaheerm-lp: I am. Nov 19 22:40:07 Jaffa, cool, thx for the service! Nov 19 22:40:10 dmj726: It makes actual sense, because without it they wouldn't be able to do it. Nov 19 22:40:16 zaheerm-lp: np :) Nov 19 22:40:42 zaheerm, seem to be getting passed empty streams, im gonna try some other url options Nov 19 22:40:43 dmj726: It doesn't make *technical* sense, but makes *legalese* and *actual* sense :) Nov 19 22:41:11 legal world is a whole different kettle of fish to real world Nov 19 22:41:28 As is technical world :) Nov 19 22:41:32 I'm just saying that they're not blocking anyone. Lots of people in the states watch Dr Who...most through the only way they can, which is not iplayer or regular tv Nov 19 22:41:55 realitygaps, so yah looks like i have a way in python to get the iplayer streams Nov 19 22:42:05 realitygaps, so will give it a go this weekend Nov 19 22:42:14 dmj726: So, what would you suggest? No GeoIP and then a) no one in the UK would be able to watch Heroes on iPlayer and *everyone* in the world could watch Doctor Who directly? Nov 19 22:42:15 zaheerm, probably much easier, the get-iplayer way was just a quick hack Nov 19 22:42:29 zaheerm, but i'd still like to figure out why it isnt working :) Nov 19 22:42:31 realitygaps, mit licenced code too Nov 19 22:42:39 realitygaps, so do i want to know Nov 19 22:42:40 dmj726, Netflix. ;) Nov 19 22:42:44 zaheerm, if your talking about python, maybe you could look a the work of the xbmc iplayer plugin, that wriien in python ? works really well Nov 19 22:42:51 realitygaps, i am sure we can fix it Nov 19 22:43:09 im gonna try the same streams on my laptop to check them b4 gst-launching Nov 19 22:43:09 dmj726: There's a difference between a perfect solution and a pragmatic one. They (and Hulu etc.) have gone for the pragmatic one. Nov 19 22:43:15 kynky, you have a link to the code, i thought that was a wrapper arounf get-iplayer Nov 19 22:43:30 realitygaps, try wget first yah :) Nov 19 22:43:42 I'm not saying it's possible for them to get around the current legal restrictions Nov 19 22:43:46 zaheerm-lp, i could be wrong but worth checking i guess Nov 19 22:43:50 but it's still silly Nov 19 22:43:54 zaheerm, yep thats my first thing to try Nov 19 22:44:16 zaheerm, just all the amsn testing left me out of batteries and cant find the damn usb cable Nov 19 22:44:33 http://techdirt.com/articles/20091116/1358106957.shtml Nov 19 22:44:36 512x288 VP6@512Kbs, 640x360 H.264@800Kbs, 832x468 H.264@1500Kbs & 1280x720 H.264@3200Kbs Nov 19 22:44:42 dmj726: I'm not sure I disagree; but changing the business model of the syndicated and worldwide distribution TV industry isn't going to happen overnight (or, probably, that soon). Nov 19 22:44:44 are the resolutions available Nov 19 22:44:52 zaheerm-lp, http://code.google.com/p/xbmc-iplayerv2/source/checkout Nov 19 22:45:13 Jaffa, or anytime in the next few decades :) i work with the tv companies Nov 19 22:45:23 zaheerm-lp: Poor you Nov 19 22:45:25 the above link is about how hulu has too many competing interests Nov 19 22:45:33 zaheerm-lp: Don't suppose you've got any contacts at ITV? Nov 19 22:45:37 as long as ssh tunnels exist, i'm happy with the way how things work :P Nov 19 22:45:38 Jaffa, well we stream their content Nov 19 22:45:43 zaheerm-lp: Ah, cool Nov 19 22:45:45 Jaffa, no, not itv Nov 19 22:45:54 Jaffa, mainly spanish media groups Nov 19 22:45:55 * Jaffa bingles bbcredux.com Nov 19 22:47:17 Jaffa, i don't deal directly with them, our sales guys do...but we get all the requirements thrown at us. and i understand their attitudes Nov 19 22:47:45 I get the feeling that the n900 is quite a success commercially. Nov 19 22:48:08 and n900 not even final :) Nov 19 22:48:37 I'm surprised so many not-really-geeks are so keen to get a hold of it Nov 19 22:48:38 one more stage to go Nov 19 22:48:47 Even I'm not 100% convinced by it. Nov 19 22:49:14 because they don't know what it is. Nov 19 22:49:16 Shapeshifter, the flashy marketing of the droid/hd2/sex10/iphone 3gs has gotten to them Nov 19 22:49:20 But then again only few things were ever able to convince me. Nov 19 22:49:41 kynky: I was saying that I'm surprised that so many of them _are_ interested in it. Nov 19 22:49:41 kynky, thx for the link, looks promising Nov 19 22:49:47 even without the marketing Nov 19 22:49:52 word gor around it's awesome. Nov 19 22:49:55 *got Nov 19 22:49:55 Then again, having played with other platforms recently; I'm actually impressed by Maemo in terms of its competition as *well* as with its own previous revisions Nov 19 22:49:59 just read how every day somebody realises something about the n900 and makes a hubbub on tmo about it Nov 19 22:50:12 today's dealbreaker: videocalling Nov 19 22:50:18 javispedro: lol indeed Nov 19 22:50:34 +1 Nov 19 22:50:40 Shapeshifter, oh read it wrong, well n series is sposed to be nokia high end, lots of ppl like nokia, got big market share Nov 19 22:50:48 mh Nov 19 22:50:53 javispedro, tomorrow's 3d holographic projection Nov 19 22:51:07 I think the droid is really sexy. But android is so boring. Nov 19 22:51:09 and the keyboard of course is shit. Nov 19 22:51:14 android sucks Nov 19 22:51:17 I wonder how that dude that reviewed maemo a while ago feels abotu the N900... Nov 19 22:51:20 kynky: N-series is not nokia high-end, it's nokia's multimedia devices-line Nov 19 22:51:22 (unrelated) Nov 19 22:51:52 droid kb really put me off, miht as well get the sex10 over that, also looks lke verizon have crippled the droid too much in usa Nov 19 22:51:55 E-series is a another story Nov 19 22:51:59 CoreFusion-: ...what would be their high end? Nov 19 22:52:11 thought e-series was buisness Nov 19 22:52:21 the e series handsets have better build than the n series ones Nov 19 22:52:29 my friend just got e72 Nov 19 22:52:33 my e71 was and still is a great phone Nov 19 22:52:40 yes e-siers is business, but business high-end and multimedia high-end are not the same thing Nov 19 22:53:00 s/siers/series Nov 19 22:53:01 But still I'd say there are so many things wrong with the n900, and still people seem to like it. But yeah, javispedro's probably right, they don't know what it is. Nov 19 22:53:08 * qwerty12_N810 would take the E90's keyboard over the N900's one anyday =) Nov 19 22:53:20 i'd take the e71's keyboard too Nov 19 22:53:28 but it'd make one huge phone then Nov 19 22:53:33 I liked the HTC touch pro 2 keyboard. Nov 19 22:53:44 clicky keys that are far apart. Nov 19 22:53:55 hello... Nov 19 22:54:17 if the htc touch pro 2 had android, I'd have bought it at the time it came out. Nov 19 22:54:20 hi... Nov 19 22:54:40 htc tp2 runs wino so instant fail :) (currently own a htc tp1) Nov 19 22:54:47 does anyone know the file location for contacts? I'm just searching the dev stuff but cant find the location Nov 19 22:54:50 my tp1 can run android Nov 19 22:55:13 gouverneur: /home/user/.osso_abook/contacts.db IIRC Nov 19 22:55:14 wino=winmo Nov 19 22:55:21 kynky: yep. Nov 19 22:55:23 gouverneur: But don't touch it directly; use the APIs Nov 19 22:56:31 I dont want to touch the one on the device, I want to export it and use it for something else (my landline phone does support upload...) Nov 19 22:57:05 gouverneur: You can export one, many or all contacts from the device in Contacts as vCard 2.1 or vCard 3.0 Nov 19 22:57:50 in which format is it stored on the device? Nov 19 22:58:03 zaheerm, get-iplayer.cgi isnt streaming on my desktop either so its likely not a maemo issue... Nov 19 22:58:22 gouverneur: It's Evolution Data Store. A Berkeley DB AFAICT (well, that's what file(1) said ;-)) Nov 19 22:58:48 ah Evo.. Nov 19 22:58:51 ok Nov 19 22:58:51 realitygaps, ok i am getting some success playing with the xbmc iplayer code, so will probably use that as a base Nov 19 22:58:54 thx Nov 19 22:59:47 i think the 640x360 h264 should work on the n900 Nov 19 23:00:19 zaheerm, once i get a working url on the desktop ill try it on the n900 Nov 19 23:00:25 why is it so hard to find stuff? Nov 19 23:00:37 zaheerm, when i get n900 will be trying to multimedia development using haskell. think your doing well good multimedia work, hope that iplayer stuff helps. Nov 19 23:00:38 realitygaps_brb, ok cool, i'm going to sleep Nov 19 23:01:07 zaheerm, sleep well.. ill let you know if i figure anything out Nov 19 23:01:07 kynky, using haskell gst bindings? Nov 19 23:01:11 realitygaps_brb, thx Nov 19 23:01:19 gleetings Nov 19 23:02:21 zaheerm, it does. Nov 19 23:02:26 haskell has ffmpeg bindings, but from what ppl have said using gstreamer could be better because of using the dsp via its plugin architecture, wasnt sure if i could get haskell gst plugins working, but no harm in trying i guess Nov 19 23:02:55 kynky, feel free to ask in #gstreamer Nov 19 23:04:20 will do, but before i do, want to make sure i can get the basics done first on device Nov 19 23:04:32 mhhhh. if I remove the scratchbox dir there seem to be lots of symlinks to lots of stuff Nov 19 23:04:47 I can't just rm that. Will something break if I rm that stuff as root? Nov 19 23:04:54 or... how do I get rid of all that. Nov 19 23:05:10 did you do /etc/init.d/scratchbox-core stop _before_ starting to rm things? Nov 19 23:05:24 or sbox_ctl stop Nov 19 23:06:01 Shapeshifter, if you just remove the scratchbox dir, bad things will happen. Nov 19 23:06:05 Follow the installation instructions. Nov 19 23:06:09 javispedro: mh, well, I had two scratchbox installations, and I want to remove the old one, which I didn't "sbox_ctl start" for a long time Nov 19 23:06:44 Er Nov 19 23:06:46 removal instructions Nov 19 23:07:47 phew. glad I didn't do that as root. Nov 19 23:08:20 that would really have sucked I think. Nov 19 23:09:22 but there isn't really anything about uninstalling on the wiki. /scratchbox/sbin/sbox_ctl stop - I did that, and then apt-get remove scratchbox-* --purge - which isn't applicable as I don't use apt. Nov 19 23:09:28 rm -rf /scratchbox Nov 19 23:09:33 which I am a bit scared of. Nov 19 23:10:20 * pnik64 want undo key Nov 19 23:11:29 * Shapeshifter is not sure if deleting a symlink just by doing rm will delete the target or just the symlink... Nov 19 23:11:57 Shapeshifter: what system are you working on as apt isnt your tool? Nov 19 23:12:03 gouverneur: archlinux. Nov 19 23:12:05 "rm" will kill the symlink, but be careful to omit the trailing "/" if it is a symlink to a directory. Nov 19 23:12:11 will delet the symlink Nov 19 23:12:33 mzz: what if I do rm -R Nov 19 23:12:46 eeeeeeeeeeeeevil deletions. never delete just rename lol Nov 19 23:12:57 * qwerty12_N810 waves at lcukn900 Nov 19 23:13:03 * javispedro has /home in an external partition just for when those paranoid thoughs arise Nov 19 23:13:12 damn.... I shouldn't have installed scratchbox in my home dir -.- Nov 19 23:13:19 mount -o remount,ro /home and rm -r everything Nov 19 23:13:28 hiya qwerty Nov 19 23:13:36 and javis Nov 19 23:13:42 hi lcuk Nov 19 23:13:52 Shapeshifter: pacman -Rn package Nov 19 23:14:17 javispedro: but where do the scratchbox symlinks point to? They point at just about everything in my system. What, remount,ro and rm? how would I be able to rm from a ro partition? Nov 19 23:14:24 is similar to apt with --purge Nov 19 23:14:37 Shapeshifter: of course, I did not consider you installed sbox to your $HOME Nov 19 23:14:44 gouverneur: right, I know how to use pacman. but I didn't install the maemo sdk using pacman obviously. Nov 19 23:14:50 nuke it from orbit, thats what i almost did Nov 19 23:15:19 how bothersome. Nov 19 23:15:20 Shapeshifter: just backup important things and do it. Theoretically it shouldn't erase anything. However, knowing myself, paranoid thoughs can't be removed so easily. Nov 19 23:16:31 just be careful and tell your neighbours before you delete.m Nov 19 23:16:42 * Shapeshifter is scared Nov 19 23:16:48 one stray / and their home dirs go too Nov 19 23:17:32 this is horrible, I don't know what to do xD Nov 19 23:17:41 hasn't happened to me in a long time Nov 19 23:17:45 hey qwerty, i did the underground! Nov 19 23:17:55 Shapeshifter: remove is an alias for unlink and wont follow symlinks rmdir on a $symlink/ will give you an error Nov 19 23:18:13 lol shapeshifter, do you need a windows disk to reformat :p Nov 19 23:18:27 lcukn900: hehe. Stupid District line wasn't running Eastbound this morning Nov 19 23:18:43 yikes Nov 19 23:18:56 i did about 4 stops. im a pro now Nov 19 23:19:17 tho if i ever have to change lines im bolloxd Nov 19 23:19:22 gouverneur: so, I have the scratchbox dir somewhere in my homefolder. Now if I do rm -R ./scratchbox from its parent dir as root, that wont do anything bad? Nov 19 23:19:35 talking about the tube i started an app that showed live depature boards Nov 19 23:19:49 s/showed/shows/ Nov 19 23:19:50 zaheerm-lp meant: talking about the tube i started an app that shows live depature boards Nov 19 23:20:02 Shapeshifter: should not Nov 19 23:20:09 i just had a pepermap Nov 19 23:20:12 try it if you dont trust Nov 19 23:21:04 i like the realtime ability to see realtime when the trains are going to get to the station, so i can choose which station to walk to :) Nov 19 23:21:06 mkdir test||ln -s test/ testdir||touch test/testfile||rm -R ./testdir Nov 19 23:21:16 http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p=382999&postcount=1 Nov 19 23:21:17 anyways really going to sleep Nov 19 23:21:26 f** try && instead of || im to tired Nov 19 23:22:07 any UK users here? Nov 19 23:22:15 mkdir test && ln -s test/ testdir && touch test/testfile && rm -rf ./testdir Nov 19 23:22:23 gouverneur: I understand Nov 19 23:22:30 Venomrush, yah but off to sleep Nov 19 23:22:32 venom why Nov 19 23:23:02 chemist@10:07 PM gwendoline:~$ mkdir test && ln -s test/ testdir && touch test/testfile && rm -rf ./testdir Nov 19 23:23:04 apparently they're shipping on the 8th Nov 19 23:23:05 chemist@12:22 AM gwendoline:~$ ls test Nov 19 23:23:06 opps Nov 19 23:23:07 3rd Nov 19 23:23:08 testfile Nov 19 23:23:14 i'm out of the country on the 8th Nov 19 23:23:14 gouverneur: yeah, I tried already. Nov 19 23:23:21 I think I'll backup first though. Nov 19 23:23:38 kind of a bother because I just want to cp -a myhomedir backupdrive Nov 19 23:23:55 ;) Nov 19 23:23:59 but now there's a scratchbox in my homedir. But I think as cp -a also does -d, it should not follow symlinks, right? Nov 19 23:24:01 so scared? Nov 19 23:24:04 zerojay: Ovi is ridiculous. Hopefully most developers will focus on Extras (once the QA process improvements are implemented) Nov 19 23:24:13 -d is -d same as --no-dereference --preserve=links Nov 19 23:24:20 right? Nov 19 23:24:29 so it will keep the links, but not follow them. Nov 19 23:24:35 even if I did cp -a. Nov 19 23:24:45 yes Nov 19 23:25:21 you can even hardlink Nov 19 23:27:57 this is like cutting wires on a bomb Nov 19 23:28:03 hardlinkin is much faster and you never loose Nov 19 23:30:00 If Nokia can't even get Ovi right, then [Nokia] please stop insulting us with the Ovi store being on the first tier of the menu Nov 19 23:30:00 BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOM Nov 19 23:30:00 +store Nov 19 23:30:08 lcukn900: I'm still not cutting anything Nov 19 23:30:16 Shapeshifter: 30seconds left HURY or you gonna BLOW! Nov 19 23:30:38 xD Nov 19 23:30:54 TOO LATE, EXPLOSION TOOK OUT MY CAPS LOCK KEY Nov 19 23:30:54 ln home/ backuphome Nov 19 23:30:59 lcukn900: Hold shift Nov 19 23:31:03 qwerty12, amen. Nov 19 23:31:11 Shapeshifter: rm -rfv , fingers near ctrl+c and go on for the sake of god. Nov 19 23:31:43 javispedro: I second that Nov 19 23:31:52 * Shapeshifter is reading about how to use rsync or tar to copy directory trees while exculding specific subdirs Nov 19 23:32:04 so I can just backup the stuff but ignore the scratchbox dir. Nov 19 23:32:10 * gouverneur slaps Shapeshifter with a HARDLINK Nov 19 23:34:20 what does rootsh package do Nov 19 23:34:20 Shapeshifter: cd / && ln home/ backuphome && ls backuphome Nov 19 23:34:29 lcukn900: gives you root Nov 19 23:34:45 no it doesnt Nov 19 23:34:48 hmm Nov 19 23:34:51 gouverneur: but what good is that? Nov 19 23:34:52 it sets some flags/setting Nov 19 23:34:53 zerojay, that'd be hilarious if it weren't so sad Nov 19 23:34:58 whic Nov 19 23:35:05 Nokia is pretty incompetent. Nov 19 23:35:12 Shapeshifter: http://www.brunolinux.com/02-The_Terminal/Hardlinks_and_Symlinks.html Nov 19 23:36:04 if you now delete the target the link still holds the nodes on your harddisk Nov 19 23:36:08 gouverneur: ah I get it. the file will not get deleted before not all references (files) to it have been deleted Nov 19 23:36:16 I guess Ovi Store being totally and utterly useless was the reason of maemo.org Extras Nov 19 23:36:19 mh yes. Nov 19 23:36:28 s/guess/though Nov 19 23:36:30 I guess that's pretty safe. Nov 19 23:37:02 Shapeshifter: as long as all links are set so make shure backuphome is containing your home! Nov 19 23:38:25 well do your rm -rf ./Scratchbox in your home ... but this does not prevent you from stuff following your symlinks so doesnt the backup with cp -a Nov 19 23:39:02 meanwhile, I've decided that scratchbox is evil. Nov 19 23:39:02 but as I said remove is an alias for unlink Nov 19 23:39:23 yes it eats children and little puppies Nov 19 23:39:27 Extras was around way before Ovi was even a gleem. Nov 19 23:41:11 i am happy there is a way to sell apps Nov 19 23:41:37 whether people make use of it, duno Nov 19 23:41:55 yeah, that was badly worded. Nov 19 23:42:03 pnik64: well people cant! Nov 19 23:42:07 gan i think ovi even predates windows Nov 19 23:42:25 or did that change the last 24hours? Nov 19 23:42:38 i can't understand, are these jokes? Nov 19 23:42:43 there is still no linux pc-suite Nov 19 23:43:02 ovi wasnt a joke when i encountered it Nov 19 23:43:06 lcukn900: One thing is for sure: Your finger got owned by it Nov 19 23:43:20 pnik64: no, ovi store rejected a single person as he is no real company Nov 19 23:43:53 lol Nov 19 23:44:04 ovi rejected me too Nov 19 23:44:13 what, random person cant sell thru ovi? Nov 19 23:44:29 no Nov 19 23:44:31 bbiab hunting for food Nov 19 23:45:14 oh lol Nov 19 23:45:16 nevermind Nov 19 23:45:21 ovi cant release our stuff Nov 19 23:45:32 they will soon be criminally liable if there's a copyright infringement Nov 19 23:45:42 again government raises a barrier to entry Nov 19 23:45:47 you see it in front of you Nov 19 23:45:57 I think that's Nokia's way to prevent useless software (just take a look at iPhone's app-store) Nov 19 23:46:06 Man, looking at the requirements needed for getting a job with Nokia, you'd think that they'd have intelligent people working for them Nov 19 23:46:27 dumb comment, qwerty12_N810 :) Nov 19 23:46:35 thats the people working... not those deciding Nov 19 23:46:55 pnik64: Ovi Store policy. Need I say more? Nov 19 23:47:02 thats a huge difference Nov 19 23:47:19 Shapeshifter: did it work? Nov 19 23:47:29 did it blow? Nov 19 23:47:43 gouverneur: I'm still reluctant to do anything. I'm cleaning up other parts of my /home first xD Nov 19 23:47:54 and then I'll rsync excluding the scratchbox dirs. Nov 19 23:47:56 lol Nov 19 23:48:07 When that is backed up, I'll try rm -rf scratchbox as root. Nov 19 23:48:32 seems to be the long way but more secure ;) Nov 19 23:49:29 gouverneur: yeah. I'd really hate to lose data. Though I have a backup mirrored twice, but it's a few months old Nov 19 23:49:47 If I do backups, I usually have more then one of them, but I do them not frequently enough :| Nov 19 23:51:33 lol seems a bit like the NYC really got a device. The forums are totally bananas about it. Nov 19 23:53:02 ah, hopefully eternal september will end soon then. Nov 19 23:53:14 heheh Nov 19 23:53:26 a lot of stuff feels like slow motion now Nov 19 23:55:47 I don't think it will end Nov 19 23:56:46 unless it was like the time when the internet got rid of all the ID10T errors. Nov 20 00:01:08 pnik64: ovi store requires $1M corporate general liability insurance, new post about it... Nov 20 00:01:30 http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p=383098&postcount=77 lol the internet is a funny place. 188 people in that thread, now wittnessed about one of the very first retail n900 owners (who paid for it) Nov 20 00:01:46 right, check the recent secret meeting in south korea Nov 20 00:01:47 I hear fanfares Nov 20 00:01:52 taataaadaaaa Nov 20 00:02:12 ... Nov 20 00:04:51 wow Nov 20 00:04:55 nice Shapeshifter Nov 20 00:06:58 pnik64: that's not me Nov 20 00:07:31 pnik64: I'm just saying, it's kinda funny that there are almost 200 people hitting F5 or ctrl-r every 10 seconds waiting for some guy in NYC to post a picture of his n900 Nov 20 00:07:45 oh Nov 20 00:10:14 I guess the retailers will ship to monday Nov 20 00:10:53 nokia flagship stores isnt realy a retailers address Nov 20 00:13:03 Shapeshifter: what? Where is the page I have to hit F5 on? :) Nov 20 00:13:31 nomis: posted it above Nov 20 00:14:39 awesome! ;-P Nov 20 00:20:50 yay figured out the rsync command to back up my stuff without touching the scratchbox dirs Nov 20 00:22:07 * timeless_mbp cries Nov 20 00:22:20 * timeless_mbp found a couple more stupid xref errors Nov 20 00:25:43 after irssi nothing else is fun Nov 20 00:25:50 ah Nov 20 00:25:56 now I know who pnik64 was ;) Nov 20 00:26:18 irssi ftw Nov 20 00:26:21 o/ Nov 20 00:27:38 well, going to bed now. hopefully tomorrow oct2009ers will not have overriden tmo main defenses Nov 20 00:27:43 yay. rm -vR scratchbox and I'm still here Nov 20 00:28:39 any clues what would happen if I was to move the final sdk scratchbox dir to opt? Nov 20 00:28:51 perhaps we need to hide tmo from the normals by only allowing access via ip address Nov 20 00:28:54 mh. I'll just try cp. Nov 20 00:28:54 cats and dogs living together. Nov 20 00:29:05 (not actual suggestion!) Nov 20 00:29:05 see you Nov 20 00:29:25 we want to be found generally speaking Nov 20 00:29:42 :) Nov 20 00:38:13 forum is going crazy Nov 20 00:38:23 guys managed to get n900 posting pic up Nov 20 00:38:35 and the swearing cursing nokia starts Nov 20 00:38:36 lol Nov 20 00:38:37 http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p=383145&postcount=95 Nov 20 00:38:47 Talk is a cesspit. Nov 20 00:40:06 mh. how big is scratchbox anyway... seems like it's huge Nov 20 00:40:23 well... if I cp a symlink, the target wont be copied as well, right? Nov 20 00:41:02 but what about a du -sh? does du follow symlinks and add that to the total size? Nov 20 00:41:23 It's Maemo + development stuff + documentation + cross compilation stuff Nov 20 00:41:27 So, a couple of gigabytes. Nov 20 00:41:31 A large portion of which is docs. Nov 20 00:41:46 Shapeshifter, around 2gb is normal, depending on what you install it can be bigger Nov 20 00:42:54 hm... I think Thunar is trying to fool me: it says my 8gb sbox partition contains 21gb of data Nov 20 00:43:10 kalikianatoli: well, that's what I'm saying, I think it follows symlinks. Nov 20 00:43:34 not sure if du -sh does. And even more unsure if cp does follow them. I don't get it. Nov 20 00:43:40 [1] shapeshifter@Tachychineta> du -sh /home/shapeshifter/stuff/maemofinal Nov 20 00:43:40 2.5G /home/shapeshifter/stuff/maemofinal Nov 20 00:43:48 that sounds like a normal size Nov 20 00:43:50 du -sh /mnt/space/maemo Nov 20 00:43:59 3.7G /mnt/space/maemo Nov 20 00:43:59 your value might actually be correct Nov 20 00:44:05 let me check here Nov 20 00:44:13 but, the above is during a cp from the first to the second Nov 20 00:44:16 the cp is still going on Nov 20 00:44:21 and the target is already 3.7 Nov 20 00:44:24 while the source is 2.5 Nov 20 00:44:27 4,5GB here with du -sh Nov 20 00:45:11 iirc a fresh copy of sbox was 1, something gb Nov 20 00:45:37 this is really weird. I did 'cp -R /home/shapeshifter/stuff/maemofinal /mnt/space/maemo' and now the target has 4.4G while the source has 2.5 Nov 20 00:45:48 I think I should have used cp -a Nov 20 00:46:06 * Shapeshifter tries again with cp -a Nov 20 00:46:38 http://europe.nokia.com/search?qt=maemo&GO.y=0&GO.x=0&GO=GO does europe.nokia.com not know maemo? Nov 20 00:47:07 what does -a do, archive and de-symlinks? Nov 20 00:47:34 i am trying to log into the darn sdk page Nov 20 00:47:35 pupnik: same as -dR --preserve=all Nov 20 00:48:06 ty i forgot that Nov 20 00:49:55 qt=maemo returns no result because maemo=qt+gtk+awesome Nov 20 00:50:33 lcukn900: lol nice comment in the NYC thread Nov 20 00:52:20 pupnik? Nov 20 00:52:35 http://tablets-dev.nokia.com ? Nov 20 00:53:50 lol Nov 20 00:55:12 haha, qt=maemo is a nice one Nov 20 00:55:28 let's start pondering whether the server admin likes qt Nov 20 00:57:19 arghhhh greasy chicken fingers on my n900 screen Nov 20 00:58:13 * kalikianatoli has *nails* :P Nov 20 00:58:42 no one to blame but youself Nov 20 00:59:36 Woo, nails! Nov 20 01:00:05 lcukn900: use the stylus? :) Nov 20 01:02:33 lol robot101 its too late for that Nov 20 01:03:08 GeneralAntilles: just wanted to log onto some nokia forum anhd ended up there Nov 20 01:03:23 so i searched for maemo aynd founs zarro Nov 20 01:04:53 perhaps that forum is not active Nov 20 01:05:46 maybe a maemo topic Nov 20 01:05:49 ... Nov 20 01:11:41 god bless all good souls who help open source Nov 20 01:15:46 newest firmware scrolling is more responsive feeling Nov 20 01:16:36 but maybe flick speed was just increased, not actual refresh rate Nov 20 01:21:48 i just thought of a way to maybe cheaply implement a notch filter Nov 20 01:21:59 i dint think ove read it Nov 20 01:22:26 would take only a few instructions per sample Nov 20 01:22:27 pupnik cool. whats a notch filter Nov 20 01:23:01 does a notch filter protect the device from scratches? Nov 20 01:23:08 audio term, cut out a notch in the frequency response Nov 20 01:23:31 to counter feedback or case resonances Nov 20 01:23:47 heh Nov 20 01:24:20 well how would you naively reduce response at 300 hz? Nov 20 01:24:44 anyone got the viaspy link for tmo Nov 20 01:25:03 How do I make the N810's keyboard not auto-capitalize sentences? Nov 20 02:00:11 Open the control panel and turn off autocapitalization? Nov 20 02:00:27 too easy Nov 20 02:00:50 Would it be better if I asked a question no-one could answer? Nov 20 02:02:23 yes, please. we love the challenge :) Nov 20 02:04:12 Which came first, the chicken or the egg? Nov 20 02:04:20 In other news, where in the control panel? Nov 20 02:04:33 In the application menu? Nov 20 02:04:42 "Text input settings" has no sucn option Nov 20 02:04:57 *such Nov 20 02:05:12 It may in one of the dialogs farther down Nov 20 02:05:39 Only one below it is "Panels" Nov 20 02:05:45 Under the dictionaries tab Nov 20 02:05:47 Settings Nov 20 02:06:12 Dictionaries tab? Nov 20 02:06:23 In text input settings Nov 20 02:06:25 It may be called something lese Nov 20 02:06:28 else Nov 20 02:06:31 I have an aftermarket string set. Nov 20 02:06:42 But the tab in text input settings that have the dictionaries. Nov 20 02:07:17 Ok, thanks Nov 20 02:12:54 so Nov 20 02:13:02 who got the first n90 ? Nov 20 02:13:05 n900 Nov 20 02:14:39 People who got prototypes months and months ago? Nov 20 02:24:26 It's amazing how telepathy-haze can't manage to stay connected to AIM for more than an hour at a time. Nov 20 02:26:26 hazy telepathy Nov 20 02:27:03 can the "end of november" delivery date be trusted? Nov 20 02:27:24 actually i already know the answer, it's no. Nov 20 02:32:39 aep, well, some people got them at retail. Nov 20 02:32:52 Supposedly shipping will start tomorrow or early next week for Nokia pre-orders. Nov 20 02:32:58 jaska, just calling it by the package name. Nov 20 02:34:57 i thnk i am just gonna get a droid Nov 20 02:35:04 droid does lol Nov 20 02:37:34 that'll be nice Nov 20 02:37:50 ? Nov 20 02:38:01 "it does lol" ? Nov 20 02:38:02 shipping starting tomorrow or early next week Nov 20 02:38:09 still Nov 20 02:38:21 aep: yep and cofee too Nov 20 02:38:30 oh well THAT is a point Nov 20 02:38:48 i just talked to a sales rep from nokia and early pre-order buyers will need to call up nokia sales because there is a problem with the headset Nov 20 02:39:03 simula_: yes, did that the other day myself Nov 20 02:39:09 cool Nov 20 02:39:12 the headset? heh. who cares? Nov 20 02:39:15 they suck anyway Nov 20 02:39:20 aep... they will hold your order Nov 20 02:39:29 i didnt preorder yet Nov 20 02:39:33 ahhh heh Nov 20 02:39:41 i'm still not sure where to order. US or UK Nov 20 02:39:54 US cheaper Nov 20 02:39:55 due to the silly keybaord i cant order a german one anyway Nov 20 02:40:02 yeah but later too Nov 20 02:40:14 aep: j max 2 weeks Nov 20 02:40:18 hmm Nov 20 02:40:52 I know im a newb and i dont wanna piss anyone off so(usally i dont know the rules on asking for help and stuff and people get pissed), how can i ask for some help ? Nov 20 02:41:05 asdm: go head Nov 20 02:41:57 you just do it. like "hello, i have a problem with X doing Y but i expect Z" Nov 20 02:42:07 I have a N770 I enabled usb host mode and installed Carman app and i plugged in the USB OBD reader to the N770 its registers at address5 but i think the porgram only reads bluetooth devices Nov 20 02:42:11 and people just answer. its that easy :D Nov 20 02:42:22 what do you guys think of amazon Nov 20 02:42:30 is there a way i can make the usb look like a bluetooth device to n770, thanks aep Nov 20 02:42:32 will we get the device before janury ? Nov 20 02:42:56 asdm: i have no idea. but maybe someone else does. just stick around and reask if no one responds in an hour or so Nov 20 02:43:09 aep: ok, thnx Nov 20 02:43:42 thephilosopher: i dunno. would be interested too Nov 20 02:43:47 amazon is $50 cheaper Nov 20 02:44:03 actually 150 % cheaper compared to nokiausa Nov 20 02:44:04 but 3 months waiting is not worth $50 Nov 20 02:44:11 lol, huh? Nov 20 02:44:23 ? Nov 20 02:44:38 it says $600 Nov 20 02:44:51 and nokiausa says $649 Nov 20 02:45:08 my re-ordered preorder totaled just a couple dollars over $600 Nov 20 02:45:11 err wrong. amazon is $559.99 Nov 20 02:45:25 ho yea Nov 20 02:45:31 counted the mail-rebate Nov 20 02:45:46 whatever rebate you have, i'm sure its not 150% Nov 20 02:45:57 except math in your country works different Nov 20 02:46:13 lol Nov 20 02:46:14 if it were 150% cheaper, they'd be paying you Nov 20 02:46:22 i meant 150 $ Nov 20 02:46:27 ah lol Nov 20 02:46:33 $300 and a N900? Sounds good Nov 20 02:47:04 http://www.boingboing.net/2009/11/19/breaking-leaked-uk-g.html Nov 20 02:48:08 Old news Nov 20 02:48:28 heh UK still not done with it? Nov 20 02:48:34 weird country Nov 20 02:48:56 from today...this is miore than 3 strikes Nov 20 02:48:56 *more Nov 20 02:48:56 at least they have sane n900 layouts Nov 20 02:50:30 nokiausa reads like nausea, was that intentional? :-] Nov 20 02:50:35 heh Nov 20 02:50:46 i bet! Nov 20 02:51:27 I can only agree about the layout. I'm infinitly happy to have the English layout, even though I needed to adapt to the y/z Nov 20 02:51:58 aww, now that you mention that.. thats something i didnt think of Nov 20 02:52:35 maybe i can scratch the labels of and make new ones D: Nov 20 02:53:19 For me it was a matter of using it for a while. I mean, almost all keys are somehow different than on a big keyboard Nov 20 02:53:39 So it's not like that's the one making the difference Nov 20 02:53:40 hmh true Nov 20 02:54:30 Then again, you *can* switch the layout in the settings. But I don't know where to get new labels Nov 20 02:55:34 from your favorite chinese parts supply Nov 20 02:55:38 * aep hides Nov 20 02:55:47 heh Nov 20 02:56:29 thats where i get all my nokia parts from since nokia refuses to sell parts at an acceptable price Nov 20 02:56:52 (130€ for a new E51 LCD is ripof. the entire device is just 200) Nov 20 02:57:34 or you grab them off ebay or another place with broken devices ;) Nov 20 02:58:21 anyone try shopping at dealextreme ? **** ENDING LOGGING AT Fri Nov 20 03:00:07 2009