**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Sat Dec 12 02:59:57 2009 Dec 12 03:00:19 just show off this damn shiny beast Dec 12 03:00:29 I'd like it to remain pristine as long as I can, really Dec 12 03:00:43 w00t, mine stuck.. with lots of bubbles.. and I misaligned it originally Dec 12 03:00:47 eh theres that point when you first get a little damage on it Dec 12 03:00:49 and you freak out Dec 12 03:00:51 most of the bubbles went away after a couple of days Dec 12 03:00:54 the bubbles ARGH THE BUBBLES Dec 12 03:00:58 :D Dec 12 03:01:01 (i do that with every peice of electronics i have lol) Dec 12 03:01:02 I still have some on the top end of the screen, small ones Dec 12 03:01:04 now after like 2 weeks or something... the thing has so many scratches it's unbelievable :_) Dec 12 03:01:10 yeah Dec 12 03:01:11 same Dec 12 03:01:29 Most of them go away when you look at the screen contents, except 3 Dec 12 03:01:36 that warp light or something Dec 12 03:02:28 oh well Dec 12 03:02:34 first scratch of many to come lol Dec 12 03:02:41 I have 5 more in the drawer though Dec 12 03:03:03 ShadowJK: I used up around 3 trying to put the bastard on Dec 12 03:03:08 I was in too much of a rush Dec 12 03:03:33 (>_>) Dec 12 03:03:39 lol Dec 12 03:03:51 I ordered 3 of the vquiti or something.. Dec 12 03:04:16 is the vquiti one any good? Dec 12 03:04:31 http://www.protectionfilms24.com/article/vikuiti-dqc-160-screen-protector-nokia-n900-28210.html Dec 12 03:04:35 this one Dec 12 03:05:14 haven't received mine yet Dec 12 03:05:48 have you heard any comments? Dec 12 03:06:09 seems highly regarded on tmo, I'm told Dec 12 03:08:15 cool Dec 12 03:14:22 i got a vikuiti. good fit, touch still useable, but i got bubbles and crud under it, so binned it. might get a couple more of them. Dec 12 03:21:09 * Arkenoi has just one micro scratch after 2 weeks of use, that's almost ok Dec 12 03:21:47 i am afraid screen protector makes touch less responsive and affects the view Dec 12 03:22:22 Arkenoi: same here Dec 12 03:23:07 i think i'd better buy a leather case so i won't accidentally damage the phone after throwing it into the same pocket with the keys while drunk or something ;-) Dec 12 03:23:30 Arkenoi: same here Dec 12 03:25:11 I'd really like to learn how much the touchpanel screen surface costs when ordered via a nokia repair shop Dec 12 03:26:16 I'd prefer to replace the original rather than any protector Dec 12 03:26:34 yes Dec 12 03:27:19 so dell can't RMA by n900 because they don't have it in their db. won't get any until 29th Dec 12 03:27:30 if it's some 20 bucks or such... so what, twice a year Dec 12 03:27:48 so i'm stuck with this one that turns off randomly until early january it looks like Dec 12 03:27:54 i am afraid it is one module with the screen itself Dec 12 03:28:03 so it may be more like $150 or so Dec 12 03:28:18 Arkenoi: it,s not Dec 12 03:28:23 see video Dec 12 03:28:52 well, if it is really $20, then there is no reason to bother yourself with protectors Dec 12 03:29:07 exactly my pov Dec 12 03:31:15 Taking apart your fone o.O Dec 12 03:31:19 * AakashPatel passes out Dec 12 03:31:36 * DocScrutinizer51 creates task "visit nokia shop. get their prices for replacing front plastic" Dec 12 03:31:38 well Dec 12 03:31:56 i suppose i will turn my n810 running maemo4 and canola2 into something to hook up to some speakers and play mp3s :) Dec 12 03:31:59 heh Dec 12 03:32:07 seems to have lost its appeal as of late Dec 12 03:32:34 wow canola2 is taking forever to install Dec 12 03:33:24 Macer: I'm still happy with my 810. Also for MP3 playback (frequently used mode of use) :-D Dec 12 03:34:59 wow Dec 12 03:35:03 also I'm quite off mainstream as I think N810 kbd is *better* than N900 Dec 12 03:35:13 I'm more impressed than I thought I would be with the speakers in the N900 Dec 12 03:35:25 yeah Dec 12 03:35:57 not bad for such a small volume device Dec 12 03:36:07 nope Dec 12 03:36:53 DocScrutinizer51: heh Dec 12 03:37:02 is there a plugin for canola2 to automatically download cover art? Dec 12 03:37:17 is there a way to turn on debug logging in maemo ? maybe i can troubleshoot this shut off issue myself Dec 12 03:37:27 no syslogs or anything that i can see Dec 12 03:37:28 dunno. not using canola here. Dec 12 03:38:49 DocScrutinizer51: it's nice :) Dec 12 03:39:36 it would be perfect if it auto downloaded album art Dec 12 03:40:05 tseem to remember a plugin for that Dec 12 03:41:17 yeah Dec 12 03:41:21 plugin for ogg too ;) Dec 12 03:41:46 damn. there are a lot of plugins for canola. it's awesome heh. i should have used it a long time ago Dec 12 03:41:58 too bad n810 lost its fm tuner :) Dec 12 03:44:58 anyone figure out how to get alsa working inside of easy-debian-chroot? Dec 12 03:45:48 anybody a clue which friggin app/update changed my N810 homescreen name to "tana_fi_home tana_fi_home_thumb" lately? Really annoying. And comes with a few other strange special FX Dec 12 03:46:38 some app lunched your localization Dec 12 03:46:48 if you squeeze the phone Dec 12 03:46:52 uhm, there's a fix...have you searched talk.maemo.org? Dec 12 03:46:54 The metal parts aroudn the screen Dec 12 03:46:59 is that supposed to be a little loose? Dec 12 03:47:20 er. around an n810 screen? :) Dec 12 03:47:21 like you can see the metal flex, as if it werent on there tight Dec 12 03:47:23 n900 Dec 12 03:47:24 johnx: not yet Dec 12 03:47:35 oh. don't know. not l33t enough to have an n900 haha Dec 12 03:47:50 my G1 is good enough :) haha Dec 12 03:48:47 Yeah I think its normal Dec 12 03:49:02 If not...RMA's ftw Dec 12 03:49:13 awesome. that plugin worked :) Dec 12 03:49:22 canola just won my heart haha Dec 12 03:55:00 Random question: Has anyone talked about putting fremantle on the Pandora? Dec 12 03:55:48 check out mer for this Dec 12 03:59:48 ~mer Dec 12 03:59:49 i guess mer is http://wiki.maemo.org/Mer, or on #mer Dec 12 04:01:50 Stskeeps: what the -hell- are you doing awake Dec 12 04:02:01 pandora? Dec 12 04:02:05 isn't that like urban legend? Dec 12 04:02:16 w00t: did you receive it? Dec 12 04:02:36 Macer: yes, haven't had much chance to play yet.. waiting on my adapter to arrive, hopefully tomorrow Dec 12 04:02:47 adapter? Dec 12 04:02:54 UK = different power socket Dec 12 04:02:57 oh yeah Dec 12 04:03:09 haha. sorry. didn't think about that. would have gotten one from radio shack if i knew you needed it Dec 12 04:03:14 time on weekend? bah Dec 12 04:03:21 nah, no worries, it's fine Dec 12 04:03:25 I needed another adapter anyway Dec 12 04:03:29 do you need a converter? i am not sure if it can handle euro power Dec 12 04:03:32 it can Dec 12 04:03:36 (checked that first) Dec 12 04:03:51 ok :) so you just need a cheap plastic adapter? Dec 12 04:04:01 no store in the area sells that sort of thing? Dec 12 04:04:02 yeah Dec 12 04:04:06 unfortunately not Dec 12 04:04:14 that sucks. they sell those things all over the place in iraq ;) Dec 12 04:04:28 then again. i think in iraq i ran into like 4 different types of outlets Dec 12 04:04:45 hahaha Dec 12 04:04:58 use lab cables and clips ;-P Dec 12 04:05:12 about the only place I -regularly- see them are electrical stores (a bit too far away from me, I have no car) or airports (which admittedly I am going to, but I'd like to play before) Dec 12 04:05:30 so just ordered one online like a lazy bastard Dec 12 04:05:31 :P Dec 12 04:05:38 w00t: well. i wiped the SD and put the stock aios on it Dec 12 04:05:55 *nod*, appreciated Dec 12 04:05:58 i'm sure you'll get mer going on it.. good luck with that thing :) it had me about to run it over with my car Dec 12 04:05:59 though god it is annoying. Dec 12 04:05:59 :P Dec 12 04:06:09 yeah. aios is horrible Dec 12 04:06:19 they had a pic of some bullshit one in popular mechanics i think it was Dec 12 04:06:20 a touchbook Dec 12 04:06:22 *will be happy when it runs a sane environment* Dec 12 04:06:33 and it was like all space age and shit.. NOTHING like the one i got :) it must be the touchbook5 or something Dec 12 04:06:47 w00t: you will have to open the kb and add weights to it Dec 12 04:06:58 so it doesn't tip heh Dec 12 04:07:08 to be honest - the design seems ok, pretty much as i expected Dec 12 04:07:12 yeah Dec 12 04:07:15 definitely noticed that Dec 12 04:07:29 i was going to do it but didn't see the point in the effort since i was going to ebay it after like 2 months of owning it Dec 12 04:07:36 1 of which it spent underneath my bed and forgotten Dec 12 04:07:37 Is Mer going to be useful on 700 or it is just PoC? ;-) Dec 12 04:07:40 what annoyed you most about it? Dec 12 04:07:43 770 even Dec 12 04:08:11 Arkenoi: useful in what way? Dec 12 04:08:11 w00t: everything :) Dec 12 04:08:17 i honestly expected a better n810 heh Dec 12 04:08:25 Macer: ..ah Dec 12 04:08:27 with an os capable of performing like maemo4 at the least Dec 12 04:08:32 with a REAL touch interface Dec 12 04:08:36 the tipping Dec 12 04:08:40 the random screen blanking Dec 12 04:08:47 I suspect if they hadn't used.. what is it.. xfce(?) then they'd be further along Dec 12 04:08:47 oh yeah Dec 12 04:08:49 which i'm sure you will notice in aios soon enough :) Dec 12 04:08:50 i got a screen blank today :P Dec 12 04:08:58 it is like totally random Dec 12 04:09:02 (i still play with it minimally on battery) Dec 12 04:09:04 i tried everything to fix it Dec 12 04:09:06 oh yeah Dec 12 04:09:12 w00t: usable replacement for 2007HE Dec 12 04:09:12 the sensor that only works on 1 battery Dec 12 04:09:16 uhm.... Dec 12 04:09:28 the touch screen should have been more sensitive Dec 12 04:09:33 at least more stable than 2008HE Dec 12 04:09:40 which is almost unusable there Dec 12 04:09:44 Arkenoi: forgive me, but I'm rather new to the scene :P Dec 12 04:09:45 but worst of all. there is no real os for it that makes it suck less Dec 12 04:09:52 so you'll have to be a bit more specific Dec 12 04:10:03 Macer: isn't there a TB port already? Dec 12 04:10:07 calling that aios beta .. is like... a massive overstatement as to where the os is Dec 12 04:10:15 w00t: yeah. there is a mer port Dec 12 04:10:20 * w00t nods Dec 12 04:10:21 but mer was pretty alpha also ;) Dec 12 04:10:24 right :P Dec 12 04:10:42 i'd rather stick with the G1 or the n810 with maemo4. i think i've given up on the gadgets for a while Dec 12 04:10:44 a lot of mer is atm, but I suspect it'll settle down in coming weeks/month or two.. Dec 12 04:10:57 mer isn't bad. just the ui ;) Dec 12 04:11:07 the base is great.. like running a portable ubuntu heh Dec 12 04:11:15 * w00t nods Dec 12 04:11:15 if you don't use the UI it's nice Dec 12 04:11:22 ui is something i hope to work on. Dec 12 04:11:25 well, am working on Dec 12 04:11:28 but that kind of defeats the purpose of a tablet ;) Dec 12 04:11:42 definitely Dec 12 04:11:53 i wish maemo4 ran on it Dec 12 04:11:55 then i'd use it heh Dec 12 04:12:12 so far maemo4 is the best one i've used.. then again i haven't gotten an n900 to try maemo5 out Dec 12 04:12:19 maemo5 is great. Dec 12 04:12:24 I say that without having used maemo4 Dec 12 04:12:28 but I have totally fallen in love Dec 12 04:12:39 well.. i stil use my n810 with maemo4.. it does a great job for what it is Dec 12 04:12:47 sure Dec 12 04:12:51 and believe it or not sometimes you find an update here and there stil :) Dec 12 04:12:53 like i said a moment ago, i er, came a bit late to the game Dec 12 04:12:57 much as i regret it now Dec 12 04:13:22 well maemo is hands down the best touch type OS i have used.. but then again there aren't too many out there Dec 12 04:13:31 Stskeeps tried to talk me into n800 ages ago, but i looked at it and didn't see the point to yet another gadget, but that was also before i really started to (ab)use portable devices a lot Dec 12 04:13:35 i use my laptop fulltime at home Dec 12 04:13:42 well. i guess there are NOW :) but when i got my n800 i think the iphone and the n8x0 were the only ones pulling it off right Dec 12 04:13:58 there are a lot now, but they still suck. Dec 12 04:14:11 i haven't tried the new palm stuff but i heard it was ok Dec 12 04:14:26 i boycott it on the basis of it being palm Dec 12 04:14:30 *evilgrin* Dec 12 04:15:02 >:-) Dec 12 04:15:26 portrait mode. bah Dec 12 04:15:38 haha Dec 12 04:15:39 mm Dec 12 04:15:41 who needs that. Dec 12 04:15:41 :P Dec 12 04:16:07 i actually got the n900 portrait mode bug the other day Dec 12 04:16:15 ah well. have to do a couple things and get some sleep. glad you received it. international shipping makes me scared sometimes Dec 12 04:16:17 which would have been great, had i not been demoing the n900 to about 3 people at the time.. Dec 12 04:16:27 well, back in 90s palm was pure evil and survived surprisingly long being awful shit Dec 12 04:16:41 but i guess they are not so bad now ;-) Dec 12 04:17:11 at least there are good ideas to steal Dec 12 04:18:28 Macer: yeah, thanks :) cya around Dec 12 04:18:44 Arkenoi: there was no alternative to them, unfortunately Dec 12 04:22:29 woot: there was. the only point of early palm was to make pda that costs $200, not $600 like others, in 1994. Everything since then was pure legacy and gory consequences of approaches chosen to implement that. Shortly afterwards, that makes a religion, mostly alike to modern Apple fags: "if it was not implemented in PalmOS, then it is useless bell or whistle" Dec 12 04:22:59 and religion survives almost ten years, damn too much for such a crap Dec 12 04:23:03 oh, of course Dec 12 04:23:13 but that $200 was a very big selling point Dec 12 04:24:45 They had at least two chances to redesign the whole OS and missed it completely, preferred to stay with outdated and incapable thing. Dec 12 04:24:54 :) Dec 12 04:24:55 even changing CPU architecture did not help Dec 12 04:24:58 everyone makes mistakes Dec 12 04:25:30 screwups on that proportion happen often over history Dec 12 04:25:37 they're just extremely lucky they're still alive Dec 12 04:25:50 yes, that's a real miracle Dec 12 04:26:05 a business that stands still isn't winning Dec 12 04:26:10 it's atrophying Dec 12 04:26:24 back in 1994 i owned a prolinear pocket PC, it made circles around Palm Dec 12 04:26:36 though its design was already 5 years old Dec 12 04:26:57 *nod* Dec 12 04:26:58 it was almost "Poqet" of 1989, just a bit faster cpu Dec 12 04:27:03 other thing to consider is the marketing Dec 12 04:27:16 yep Dec 12 04:27:51 they proved the fact so-called "geeks" are just as incapable of independant thinking and being inquisitive as "general customers" Dec 12 04:28:16 just a bit different advertisement methods and everyone knows that "Palm is ultimate geek toy" Dec 12 04:28:27 though there were dozens of others Dec 12 04:28:40 no different to what nokia is going for here really Dec 12 04:28:59 nokia made me wonder with communicator series Dec 12 04:29:02 (with the possible exception of it probably being the closest thing to truth to have hit the market in a while) Dec 12 04:29:05 oh god yes Dec 12 04:29:08 communicator.. E90 was it? Dec 12 04:29:09 because it *WAS* ultimate geek toy Dec 12 04:29:30 but they marketed it for managers instead Dec 12 04:29:35 9000 Dec 12 04:29:50 my first one was 9000i in 1998 Dec 12 04:30:08 I'm not that old fyi Dec 12 04:30:17 I was just leaving primary school in 1998 Dec 12 04:30:45 but the E90, dear god, I strongly considered going for that before being told to wait a while and see whether anything more interesting happened Dec 12 04:30:49 so I did, nearly going insane in the process Dec 12 04:30:52 but now I have my precious Dec 12 04:30:55 my life Dec 12 04:30:57 my baby Dec 12 04:30:58 * w00t rubs it Dec 12 04:32:30 ahem. Dec 12 04:36:42 * Arkenoi owned just every model in communicator series except 9300s since 1998. 9000i, 9110, 9110i, 9210, 9210i, 9500, e90 Dec 12 04:37:45 jesus :P Dec 12 04:38:00 but seems that n900 is the first one designed as i expected, despite crappy keyboard Dec 12 04:38:08 i'm actually really happy to be back with a nokia Dec 12 04:38:20 i've been in the horrible land of ericsson and winmo for the past 3-4 years Dec 12 04:38:33 i was going to switch to Android, looking at the Milestone Dec 12 04:39:06 but just won n900 on maemo meetup and it proved to be really good Dec 12 04:39:20 that is ..insanely lucky :) Dec 12 04:42:38 in just a few hours i was sure - no, i won't switch to anything else ;-) Dec 12 04:43:13 yeah, same Dec 12 04:43:27 i was evaluating hd2, but, i've had enough of windows mobile. Dec 12 04:44:28 android is nice, but not *that* nice. i played with Hero a bit, it is a good phone, but n900 is way better Dec 12 04:47:14 mhm Dec 12 04:48:53 anybody got pulseaudio network working? Dec 12 04:49:05 im trying to use pulseaudio as a way to get sound out of my debian chroot to the device proper Dec 12 04:49:16 winmo AAAAAARG Dec 12 04:49:25 currently getting connection refused after setting my default server to 127.0.0.1 in the chroot Dec 12 04:49:27 DocScrutinizer51: it's fine provided you don't breathe on it the wrong way Dec 12 04:49:30 * DocScrutinizer51 coughs and turns blue Dec 12 05:00:18 w00t: I had 3 winmoob devices and really disliked each single one of them Dec 12 05:00:30 more or less the same Dec 12 05:00:31 :) Dec 12 05:01:31 DocScrutinizer, which devices? Dec 12 05:02:14 moto Q9, glofiish M800, OMNIA Dec 12 05:02:26 oooof, yeah, those are trainwrecks Dec 12 05:02:40 they fight you tooth and nail Dec 12 05:02:49 I have had a few, out of the box they were horrible. With some ROM Hacking/cooking they were much better Dec 12 05:02:55 the hd2 is the best winmo device out right now Dec 12 05:03:02 and it still lacks in many ways Dec 12 05:03:09 Dell Axim X51V PDA, HTC Wizard, HTC Wing, and a few others I cant recall Dec 12 05:03:56 though the hardware is great Dec 12 05:03:57 i'm honestly fed up and thru with anything origin Redmond Dec 12 05:04:36 I'm annoyed to admit I like windows seven, but yeah, they've completely ballsed up windows mobile Dec 12 05:04:40 ive got a G1, I hate the damn thing Dec 12 05:04:53 the g1 is horrible Dec 12 05:05:27 w00t: well, winmo is basically still the same as winmo6 -- if they move to a ce6+ kernel or win7 kernel they're going to be much much better off... along with better apps, of course Dec 12 05:05:31 im not even going to start with my laundry list of gripes Dec 12 05:05:40 ce6 runs at least 1.5x faster than winmo6.5 on the same hardware Dec 12 05:05:46 maybe 2x Dec 12 05:06:45 Foxx: the droid is pretty decent, but still needs more polish Dec 12 05:07:09 im not a fan of android right now Dec 12 05:07:17 great idea, bad implementation Dec 12 05:07:32 have you used the droid? Dec 12 05:07:40 its 10000x better than the g1 Dec 12 05:08:03 not yet, im too poor to keep buying new cell phones that dont work well as a cell phone Dec 12 05:08:18 im half tempted to go back to my Moto' V635 Dec 12 05:09:07 the good news though really is that people across the board are starting to put out really nice hardware and are making software stacks vastly better Dec 12 05:09:20 a year from now the options should be pretty rediculious (maybe even 6 months from now?) Dec 12 05:11:49 Foxx: sounds like OM trauma :-D Dec 12 05:12:16 OM? Dec 12 05:12:25 Openmoko Dec 12 05:12:38 never had/used one Dec 12 05:12:50 ugh, openmoko was just bad Dec 12 05:13:10 my main gripe is that out of the box the G1 didnt work very well as a phone. Mostly software crashes, and the updates made it work Dec 12 05:13:17 ohh. so there a actually other phones that "don,t work as a phone"? Dec 12 05:13:26 Someone called, dialer crashed Dec 12 05:13:33 needed to make a call, dialer crashed Dec 12 05:13:41 needed to check a number, dialer crashed Dec 12 05:13:48 took a pic', camera crashed Dec 12 05:13:53 looked at a pic, camera crashed Dec 12 05:13:57 heh yeah Dec 12 05:14:23 wanted to change a ring tone, had to install a new app... that crashed Dec 12 05:14:51 not to mention most of the apps on the market are designed by people that really dont know WTF they are doing Dec 12 05:15:03 adware on my phone now, SCREW THAT! Dec 12 05:15:59 when my battery is low, which is a 3A cell, so 15% isnt all that low, and fucked if they let me change when it warns me... Dec 12 05:16:17 it makes a popup "You need to change your battery [Ok] [Why?]" Dec 12 05:16:28 why? I know why the battery is low, you dont have to tell me Dec 12 05:16:30 the n900 normally warns you right as it turns itself off Dec 12 05:16:31 heh Dec 12 05:17:14 heh. not exactly Dec 12 05:18:00 sometimes it cries for a little while first Dec 12 05:18:02 on my one test done so far the system shut down ~90min after nat at 0 and first warning Dec 12 05:18:36 s/nat/bat Dec 12 05:19:35 when the n900 doesnt cost as much as my rent, ill pick one up Dec 12 05:22:00 Foxx: well, if you're not going with a contract and subsidized then you'll quite probably have to wait a while Dec 12 05:22:28 yeah, I know, it will be a while Dec 12 05:22:41 Plus I am under contract with this G1 until 2011 >:/ Dec 12 05:23:22 oh, too bad Dec 12 05:24:25 though I'm sure the contract doesn't mean you can't use N900 with same SIM Dec 12 05:25:21 * Arkenoi is playing with sms sending service. not only it is cheaper than sending via local operator, i may choose any number to appear as sender. Dec 12 05:26:50 heh, for SMS that's new to me. Well kinda. You can do that for SIP calls though Dec 12 05:28:14 ~ping Dec 12 05:28:16 ~pong Dec 12 05:28:47 * Arkenoi tries to think out some funny prank, but i am too sleepy now ;-) Dec 12 05:30:06 send a message appearing as from oneself "your phone is hacked" and watch him searching for malware? ;-) Dec 12 05:30:47 was hacked, even Dec 12 05:30:51 anyways Dec 12 05:31:26 lol Dec 12 05:31:29 star trek cracks me up Dec 12 05:31:36 "That's in the southern part of the Galaxy." Dec 12 05:32:03 kabel1? Dec 12 05:34:43 hmm, xchat reregister after connection loss much better now. just the nick reclaiming and registration not quite what it should be yet Dec 12 06:03:12 yay vnc :) Dec 12 06:05:39 is there an alt equivalent or do i need to keep using /win to change my selected chan? Dec 12 06:06:37 esc? Dec 12 06:08:13 esc 2 doesnt work Dec 12 06:14:51 seriously, what morons made ovi maps.. Dec 12 06:21:37 Macer, I think they actually talk about north and south, so.. Dec 12 06:21:40 in real life I mean Dec 12 06:25:27 ...reboot Dec 12 06:26:52 Stskeeps, with half the features of wayfinder on N810, they manage to be twice as slow as wayfinder on N810, on a device that has ~2X the performance. It's quite impressive really. Dec 12 06:27:17 * luke-jr wonders why he is doing this Dec 12 06:27:48 What are you doing? Dec 12 06:28:01 designing a keyboard layout optimized for thumb typing <.< Dec 12 06:29:12 the thumb keyboard in maemo4/maemo5 turns out to be much more usable on n900 than n8x0 Dec 12 06:29:28 I think it's because the screen isn't inside a pit, and it has decent sensitivity.. Dec 12 06:29:35 what does the screen have to do with it? Dec 12 06:31:33 oooh, Nokia wants my feedback regarding their service, muahahah Dec 12 06:32:07 luke-jr, hm. a hw keyboard? Dec 12 06:32:34 Klowner, last time I tried, that questionaire didn't work. I laughed Dec 12 06:32:56 ShadowJK: was it a digiumenterprise.com url? Dec 12 06:33:02 ShadowJK: yes, one for thumbs Dec 12 06:33:10 Klowner, hm, not sure Dec 12 06:33:16 curiously, I seem to type 0 and 1 more than all the other digits combined... Dec 12 06:33:19 Klowner, are those the same clowns that run the online shop website? Dec 12 06:33:43 luke-jr, maybe you just need a one-handed dvorak keyboard in your pocket Dec 12 06:33:58 ShadowJK: I don't think so, maybe.. I guess this is only in regard to my e-mail communications with them, which was basically absent Dec 12 06:33:59 ShadowJK: Dvorak is designed for a full hand at least Dec 12 06:34:10 seeing as it took over a week for them to respond to anything via email Dec 12 06:37:07 meh, this survey is insufficient for conveying my frustration in regards to their repair/replacement policy Dec 12 06:44:22 * Klowner reads through the case/pouch/screen protector thread again :/ Dec 12 07:02:00 mornin' all Dec 12 07:09:25 morn wazd Dec 12 07:10:28 meh, we have "almost sunny" day :)\ Dec 12 07:12:46 Nokia sues Apple, Apple sues Nokia, TechCrunch sues JooJoo, Sherlock Holmes sues Dr. Watson Dec 12 07:16:24 i like the patent for packaging that apple trotted out Dec 12 07:17:13 granted, all patents are unreadable when done "well" Dec 12 07:17:56 pwnguin_n900: How many hundred thousand software patents have you read and understood? Dec 12 07:18:18 none Dec 12 07:19:03 dmj7261: did you have a point: Dec 12 07:19:11 ? Dec 12 07:19:29 just pointing out one of the bigger issues with software patents. Dec 12 07:22:08 people can't really determine whether their software does infringe on any. Dec 12 07:23:31 and if you do read a patent, and are found infringing on it, you're liable for treble damages Dec 12 07:23:38 yep Dec 12 07:24:00 anyways, this is the choir Dec 12 07:24:20 so the incentive is to a) ignore them and b) file patents and sue people and c) don't make software Dec 12 07:24:25 yeah Dec 12 07:24:33 I figured. Dec 12 07:24:48 time to try out telepathy-idle Dec 12 07:30:21 Moaning! Dec 12 07:40:19 go1dfish: did you install the debian chroot on a microsd card? Dec 12 07:41:10 dmj7261 & pwnguin: you're idiots Dec 12 07:41:14 redeeman: yeah Dec 12 07:42:00 go1dfish: lenny or sid? Dec 12 07:42:20 redeeman: used easy-debian-chroot as the base image Dec 12 07:42:23 disabled the sid repos Dec 12 07:42:37 so I think it's primarily squeeze Dec 12 07:42:39 crashanddie_mbp: how so? Dec 12 07:43:10 brainlessly bashing patents is just that: brainless Dec 12 07:43:46 you're not allowed to criticise something (based on the fact others hate it) unless you have a firm grasp of it Dec 12 07:44:22 I do in fact have a firm grasp of it. Dec 12 07:44:23 go1dfish: ah, i was thinking of debootstrapping one Dec 12 07:44:25 crashanddie_mbp: you see to that personally I see... Dec 12 07:48:31 go1dfish: so you use ext3 on the microsd card? Dec 12 07:48:39 yeah Dec 12 07:48:59 considering partitioning it though half fat32, so I can maybe set up a ubuntu boot image on it for windows boxes I encounter Dec 12 07:49:07 Sorry but US patent usual practice is so completely fubar and braindamaged. And it spreads all over the world Dec 12 07:49:21 patent the smell of a fart Dec 12 07:52:11 and sw-patents are worst of all Dec 12 07:52:30 It's possible that patents work/fail to cause harm in some industries, but software patents cause a good deal of harm without any proof of actual benefits from them. Dec 12 07:53:24 the N900 exists thanks to software patents Dec 12 07:53:48 errrrryep. obviously Dec 12 07:53:58 ARM anyone? Dec 12 07:54:02 umm...no it doesn't Dec 12 07:54:05 that's largely a uselessly broad statement Dec 12 07:54:52 Software patents are not the *cause*, even when they are made in parallel with the software. Dec 12 07:54:58 crashanddie_mbp: you obviously have no idea what you're talking about Dec 12 07:55:00 ARM is exactly ZERO related to *software* patents Dec 12 07:55:06 redeeman: right Dec 12 07:55:18 oh my bad Dec 12 07:55:21 sleepy head Dec 12 07:55:26 but that is to be expected for someone adding _mbp to their nick Dec 12 07:55:34 lol Dec 12 07:55:41 that the best you can do? Dec 12 07:55:56 I apologise, I missed the *software* part Dec 12 07:56:23 besides, even without patents we'd still have ARM, or if not ARM(if they werent competitive), someone else that's better Dec 12 07:56:42 I honestly doubt that Dec 12 07:57:02 you should look into why patents were created, and how they fail miserably to achieve the goal Dec 12 07:57:18 I honestly cant understand why this conversation is going on at 11:56pm :P my brain hurts just thinking at this hou Dec 12 07:57:20 hour* Dec 12 07:57:21 most especially software patents Dec 12 07:57:22 One of the main facts that allows ARM to remain so successful is the fact they don't have to wait for production and product lifetimes Dec 12 07:57:41 Xisdibik: waiting for the hotel wifi to allow my flick to stop buffering Dec 12 07:57:54 (again, not talking about software patents) Dec 12 07:58:02 what flick Dec 12 07:58:16 not everybody sharing your TZ, Xisdibik Dec 12 07:58:26 Xisdibik: inglorious basterds Dec 12 07:58:43 awesome movie crashanddie_mbp Dec 12 07:58:46 just everyone who matters Dec 12 07:58:51 is it? Dec 12 07:58:51 :p Dec 12 07:58:52 DocScrutinizer: lies, everyone uses my time zone ;) Dec 12 07:59:02 crashanddie_mbp: yes one of the best ones i saw this year Dec 12 07:59:02 I'm nearly at the end, and it's pretty far from any kind of reality Dec 12 07:59:21 its not supposed to e Dec 12 07:59:22 be* Dec 12 07:59:28 Or maybe I'm missing the point of the movie, but at least it's entertaining Dec 12 07:59:45 the last word in your sentence is the point :p Dec 12 08:50:41 i love waking up, reaching for tablet, and chatting in comfortable bed Dec 12 08:51:11 but then again, the day is for deeds... Dec 12 08:52:05 lol Dec 12 09:00:37 The Other Scott Horton, international human rights lawyer, professor and contributing editor at Harpers Magazine, discusses the astonishing facts of the "suicide" death of guantanamo detainees (called "attacks of asymmetrical warfare" in us media). http://antiwar.com/radio/2009/12/11/scott-horton-25/ Dec 12 09:00:43 oops Dec 12 09:00:45 wrong chan Dec 12 09:19:35 anyone know why otr isn't included with pidgin ? Dec 12 09:21:13 MOO Dec 12 09:21:13 http://luke.dashjr.org/tmp/code/hhkeys.html Dec 12 09:21:21 comments/criticism? :p Dec 12 09:21:43 javispedro: around? Dec 12 09:21:54 Anyone else willing to screw with the autobuilder around? Dec 12 09:27:12 luke-jr, what's that? Dec 12 09:27:29 slonopotamus: keyboard layout designed for thumb-typing Dec 12 09:27:37 _|Nix|_: what's up with pidgin-otr? Dec 12 09:28:05 slonopotamus: optimization input is English Perl :p Dec 12 09:28:35 luke-jr: lol Dec 12 09:28:54 wiretapped: ? Dec 12 09:29:30 wiretapped: in theory, I think it has every symbol you'd need? :P Dec 12 09:34:23 Ok, the bugfixed FBReader is now in Extras-Devel-nonfree Dec 12 09:34:41 Going into -free as soon as I find someone who can push it through autobuilder Dec 12 09:36:34 there, now the only normal keys it's missing are *Lock, Meta, PrintScrn/SysRq, Pause/Break Dec 12 09:37:34 luke-jr: i think esc is a nice substitute for Meta most of the time, so it's ok. Dec 12 09:37:43 :o Dec 12 09:37:49 it IS missing Esc... Dec 12 09:38:14 i'm missing some things Dec 12 09:38:19 where do I install less from? Dec 12 09:38:29 actually, probably the biggest problem is that it uses the full 64 key matrix Dec 12 09:38:41 luke-jr: (missing esc) how to use vim or anything then? Dec 12 09:38:47 leaving no room for any extra keys like Cancel/OK (Esc/Enter) or such Dec 12 09:40:37 PaulFertser: think it'd be too hacky to define Esc as a hardware mapped Fn+Q or such? Dec 12 09:40:41 wiretapped: good question Dec 12 09:40:54 moin paul Dec 12 09:41:00 luke-jr: also while working with bash i find M-. to be mad useful, it's faster than typing $!! Dec 12 09:41:08 DocScrutinizer51: moin Dec 12 09:41:15 PaulFertser: M-??? Dec 12 09:41:29 luke-jr: (dot) Dec 12 09:41:51 luke-jr: yank-last-arg (M-., M-_) in any readline app. Dec 12 09:42:17 English? :/ Dec 12 09:42:27 M- short for "Meta + ..."? Dec 12 09:42:27 luke-jr: pardon? Dec 12 09:43:04 luke-jr: ah, yep, sure, that's emacs-style notation used in all gnu projects, including GNU Readline library used by pretty much any interactive app on a modern GNU/Linux system. Dec 12 09:43:18 I see. Dec 12 09:43:24 Well, might need to map one of the Ctrl/Alt then :p Dec 12 09:43:34 PaulFertser: obviously luke-jr isn,t aware of the benefits of alt-. Dec 12 09:43:34 already short on keys Dec 12 09:43:45 DocScrutinizer51: Meta is not Alt Dec 12 09:44:15 or at least, when I say Meta i mean the key that has a Windows/Apple/Tux icon on it Dec 12 09:44:16 luke-jr: with default PC layout Alt is mapped to Meta, both in X and console. Dec 12 09:44:24 O.o Dec 12 09:44:32 what do you call Win/Apple/Tux then? Dec 12 09:44:37 Hyper Dec 12 09:44:45 luke-jr: alternatively you press Esc, depress it and press what you want, that is also meta. Dec 12 09:44:46 i c Dec 12 09:45:10 well, there are left and right Alt keys in my layout :p Dec 12 09:45:17 http://luke.dashjr.org/tmp/code/hhkeys.html Dec 12 09:45:47 luke-jr: but alt is a bad substitute for Esc ;) Dec 12 09:46:02 Lo, got my N900 yesterday and I'm compelely clueless how you are supposed to access the SD card to transfer files over BT Dec 12 09:46:08 PaulFertser: hence my question on the practicality of hardware keymapping Dec 12 09:46:09 the file manager is beyond a joke Dec 12 09:46:13 luke-jr: (i didn't notice alt in the layout and you said you lack meta, that's why i was confused) Dec 12 09:47:34 impressive flash paint app www.sumo.fi/flash/sumopaint Dec 12 09:48:15 luke-jr: imho the default (the one nokia thinks is the best obviously) layout both in n810 and n900 is far from ideal for a typical command-line usage, so remapping the keyboard is obviously beneficial. Dec 12 09:48:51 PaulFertser: any idea if, in designing hardware keyboards on handhelds, mapping an Esc/Cancel key to a combination (Fn+] for instance) is practical? Dec 12 09:49:47 luke-jr: well, for vim user that would be a disaster, so i think it should be configurable. I think it's acceptable provided you're not heavy vim user and alt/meta is present as a separate key. Dec 12 09:49:58 why would it be a disaster? Dec 12 09:50:22 it would only mean you couldn't use Fn + ] or Fn + Esc :p Dec 12 09:51:03 nota bene esc == ctrl-[ Dec 12 09:51:07 luke-jr: well, i might be wrong here. Just try to use vim for everyday tasks pressing two keys instead of one every time you need esc. Probably it'll be ok, i don't know. Dec 12 09:51:16 err ] Dec 12 09:51:46 PaulFertser: no, I mean a physical Cancel/Escape key that *sends* Fn + ] Dec 12 09:51:48 DocScrutinizer51: nope, it's [, and yes, thanks for mentioning it, i've already forgot that stuff :) Dec 12 09:51:57 DocScrutinizer51: ? Dec 12 09:51:59 I'm about to move to the other side of the planet Dec 12 09:52:27 I've been talking about it for weeks, but for some reason, it just dawned on me Dec 12 09:52:55 luke-jr: you can press C-[ and it's the same as Esc with default terminal settings. Dec 12 09:53:02 PaulFertser: ok, C-[ then :p Dec 12 09:53:24 PaulFertser: my question is, would it be practical to have a single physical key that sends that combination when pressed? Dec 12 09:53:26 luke-jr: of course there should be a physical key that sends C-[ if you use vim. Dec 12 09:53:38 luke-jr: but probably C-[ is about enough too. Dec 12 09:53:45 Any MacIntosh users around here? Dec 12 09:53:48 I need to try to avoid using hardware esc key to tell for sure. Dec 12 09:53:51 joppu: yup Dec 12 09:54:01 luke-jr, two thumb typing? Dec 12 09:54:04 PaulFertser: keep in mind with this layout, [ is Shift-{ Dec 12 09:54:06 ShadowJK: yes Dec 12 09:54:41 luke-jr: oh, are you sure that shouldn't be the other way round? Dec 12 09:54:43 luke-jr, is this for fitting onto n810 keyboard or what? Dec 12 09:55:10 crashanddie_mbp: are to build a theme for me? Please? Dec 12 09:55:10 C Dec 12 09:55:23 eh? Dec 12 09:55:38 Just because I have a mac means I have any design skills? Dec 12 09:55:47 two ctrl, cool Dec 12 09:55:59 crashanddie_mbp, yes it's genetic Dec 12 09:56:07 Lantizia: oic Dec 12 09:56:29 2 alt, AND a fn. that's more than on regular keyboards (I have one Alt, one Altgr (think fn) on mine) Dec 12 09:56:32 crashanddie_mbp: :D I said build, I have the graphics ready, the building phase just doesn't work on Linux/Windows Dec 12 09:56:52 joppu: care going into more detail? Dec 12 09:56:54 luke-jr: well, i've just tried using C-[ instead of hardware esc on my PC. Comfortable enough for me but i'm quite used to emacs-like bindings in general, so pressing C extra time is nothing special for me. Dec 12 09:57:11 PaulFertser: I optimized the layout using Perl sources for key voting. Dec 12 09:57:34 ShadowJK: for new hardware, but I recognize that many chipsets have a 64-key limit Dec 12 09:57:37 luke-jr: ctrl-[ isn't exactly a combo. after keycode to char translation it,s a single byte char Dec 12 09:57:45 ah Dec 12 09:57:55 ShadowJK: N810's physical key matrix is only 11 wide Dec 12 09:58:14 DocScrutinizer51: ok, but I mean from hardware to kernel :p Dec 12 09:58:23 hey you can put esc right of s Dec 12 09:58:25 so any tips on N900 accessing the SD card? like how!? Dec 12 09:58:40 from hw to kernel you *never* send combo Dec 12 09:58:46 ShadowJK: right of S is Enter Dec 12 09:58:48 err Dec 12 09:58:50 space Dec 12 09:58:54 Lantizia: can't you just open a terminal, type mount. Then if it's not mounted type mount blabla blabla etc? Dec 12 09:58:54 oh right Dec 12 09:58:57 that's why it's... empty Dec 12 09:59:12 Lantizia, did you close the back cover? Dec 12 09:59:12 luke-jr: hw sends keycodes, plus down o up Dec 12 09:59:13 DocScrutinizer51: out of key codes Dec 12 09:59:18 PaulFertser, tried that didn't work Dec 12 09:59:25 DocScrutinizer51: "plus down o up"? Dec 12 09:59:27 Lantizia: how exactly? Can you pastebin it? Dec 12 09:59:31 ShadowJK, nope.... does it also need restarting Dec 12 09:59:52 crashanddie_mbp: let's handle it in PM Dec 12 09:59:53 PaulFertser, I'm not allowed access to the only dir in /media - let alone mounting it Dec 12 09:59:55 restarting not needed... having the cover on is needed Dec 12 10:00:11 Lantizia: probably you should get root on _your_ device first? Dec 12 10:00:38 PaulFertser, well I tried sudo su to get in and set via passwd but I don't know the 'users' password Dec 12 10:01:04 Lantizia: install rootsh Dec 12 10:01:05 Lantizia: you need to search the wiki or something... I have no idea why nokia devices do not come with easy root access by default. Dec 12 10:01:10 DocScrutinizer, via apt? Dec 12 10:01:16 Lantizia: sudo gainroot Dec 12 10:01:32 sd card shows up in file manager now the back is closed Dec 12 10:01:44 Lantizia: via packet manager Dec 12 10:01:53 Sending files over BT isn't supported by the filemanager. There's an app in Extras called Petrovich that can send files over BT, though. Dec 12 10:02:03 ok Dec 12 10:02:08 application manager Dec 12 10:02:14 Petrovich! Davay vipyem! Dec 12 10:02:17 so no apt-get on this? I have to use the gui? Dec 12 10:02:28 you can use apt-get after you have root Dec 12 10:02:33 ah ok Dec 12 10:02:45 to get root, you must install rootsh through application manager. After that, you can type "sudo gainroot" in xterm to get root Dec 12 10:02:50 first thing I'll get is nano lol Dec 12 10:03:08 And if apt-get ever suggests or says it needs to remove a bunch of stuff in order to do what you asked it to, say no Dec 12 10:03:12 :P Dec 12 10:03:19 and vorbis support Dec 12 10:03:23 * PaulFertser almost hates nano for its uselessness and clumsinessness. Dec 12 10:03:36 to each their own Dec 12 10:04:02 nano is in sdktools repo, vorbis support is in Extras.. you should find it in application manager even Dec 12 10:04:14 well theres only like 8 things in application manager Dec 12 10:04:21 oh Dec 12 10:04:26 and their all silly widgetty things Dec 12 10:04:38 Lantizia: enable extras Dec 12 10:04:39 tap the titlebar to bring out the menu, tap application catalogues Dec 12 10:04:52 DocScrutinizer, that the equivalent of enabling contrib? :D Dec 12 10:04:55 tap maemo extras, tap the tickbox next to disabled, so that the tick is gone Dec 12 10:05:03 tap save Dec 12 10:05:06 got it :D Dec 12 10:05:43 "Ogg Support" in app manager Dec 12 10:06:05 99% of all my music is in vorbis, it's an essential ingredient :) Dec 12 10:06:29 it even does flac Dec 12 10:06:51 ShadowJK: where,s less? Dec 12 10:07:23 sdk tools, http://repository.maemo.org, fremantle/tools, free non-free Dec 12 10:07:33 iirc Dec 12 10:07:56 I disable that repo after installing stuff from it.. Dec 12 10:10:01 Lantizia, if you're a commandline type person, you probably want to install "Openssh client and server" from application manager too, then you can ssh into your n900 ;) Dec 12 10:10:01 ShadowJK: I have fremantle/tools. No less. No strace... :-/ Dec 12 10:10:13 ShadowJK, already seen it :D Dec 12 10:10:17 ShadowJK, thanks Dec 12 10:10:58 DocScrutinizer, hm Dec 12 10:11:06 where did I get it from then.. Dec 12 10:11:20 got a 3xx permanently moved error some days ago. still no less though works now Dec 12 10:12:03 DocScrutinizer, hm, I find it with apt-cache search and I've only got Nokia* and Extras enabled.. Dec 12 10:12:23 darn Dec 12 10:12:44 and it's found on search for less? Dec 12 10:13:19 no that was nano Dec 12 10:13:29 but less is found too Dec 12 10:14:01 * DocScrutinizer51 going to kick off another repo update Dec 12 10:15:32 How is the bypassing clutter and pulseaudio going RST38h Dec 12 10:18:33 great. appman totally frozen Dec 12 10:19:14 wtf?! Dec 12 10:19:44 ctrl-backspace and do something else :D Dec 12 10:19:49 while waiting for it Dec 12 10:19:51 o.o Dec 12 10:19:56 not even a close-X in dashboard Dec 12 10:20:03 lm8323 actually has 8x12, not 8x8 Dec 12 10:21:12 ShadowJK: ctrl-bs just opens dash Dec 12 10:21:52 weird Dec 12 10:22:12 * DocScrutinizer51 hugs his shell Dec 12 10:23:40 duh. the search dialog was hidden behind the search results o.O Dec 12 10:24:19 (enter) fixed it Dec 12 10:24:54 morning Dec 12 10:27:24 still no less Dec 12 10:28:09 where the hell did I get mine from :) Dec 12 10:33:24 morn Dec 12 10:33:30 Is there like a complete list of official and unofficial rtepositories (for apt) that work with maemo 5? Dec 12 10:33:37 maybe one with nano in it? :D Dec 12 10:33:49 i don't just want to add the debian ones in - I have a feel that'd be BAD Dec 12 10:35:23 well. no less. no trace. no nano... Dec 12 10:35:32 * DocScrutinizer51 puzzled Dec 12 10:41:49 Morning, all Dec 12 10:41:56 morn Jaffa Dec 12 10:43:22 I can't seem to find where icons need to be placed, and whether we need multiple sizes, am I missing the obvious> Dec 12 10:43:23 ? Dec 12 10:48:16 lardman: http://thpinfo.com/2008/02/maemo-icon-sizes.html Dec 12 10:49:36 thanks Jaffa, glad it's not just me having troubles finding any docs Dec 12 10:50:43 Lantizia, http://repository.maemo.org/ Dec 12 10:51:15 using the SDK repos on the device is a bit so-so. the tools part of it is mostly safe, but make sure you don't agree to anything apt proposes. Dec 12 10:51:25 extras-testing and extras-devel information can be found on the wiki Dec 12 10:52:26 Basically, only stuff in extras has been tested. -testing and -devel can be considered unsafe (and tools), only use them if you're prepared to reflash your n900 and dont mind losing settings/stuff on it, etc.. Dec 12 10:58:23 is $(CURDIR) available in Makefile.am? Dec 12 10:58:36 I need to install some different sized icons, and not sure how to do it Dec 12 10:59:03 whether to rename and install from the same dir, changing the names back as they are copied (somehow) or to install from subdirs Dec 12 10:59:08 any thougthts? Dec 12 10:59:27 luke-jr, two alts/ctrls is too much, imo Dec 12 11:00:00 luke-jr, and shifts. Dec 12 11:00:04 lardman: You can use install - but I dunno what's available inside Makefile.am; I've managed to avoid autoconf & friends :) Dec 12 11:00:18 slonopotamus: ... Dec 12 11:00:24 luke-jr, i'd move shift to the very left. Dec 12 11:00:52 slonopotamus: even N810 has two shifts Dec 12 11:01:04 Jaffa: yeah, well this is automake-tastic so I thought I'd try Dec 12 11:01:08 heck, 2 and a half, since the right shift is wider Dec 12 11:01:10 I think I know a way Dec 12 11:01:19 luke-jr, so holding it with one finder doesn't block access to letters for second finger Dec 12 11:01:45 slonopotamus: say what? finder? Dec 12 11:01:56 there are exactly two fingers, both thumbs Dec 12 11:02:09 luke-jr, s/finder/finger/ Dec 12 11:02:42 Jaffa: Feel like pushing a package through the autobuilder? Dec 12 11:02:46 slonopotamus: that is why both mod keys are needed :p Dec 12 11:03:08 slonopotamus: it is impossible for left thumb to reach keys on right side while right thumb holds mod key, and vice-versa Dec 12 11:03:13 ah, you want to use shift on the opposite side of key being shifted Dec 12 11:03:37 I'm not certain it is possible to make a 1-finger keyboard... Dec 12 11:03:56 though that would be ideal when driving Dec 12 11:03:57 <.< Dec 12 11:04:05 RST38h: Conny suggests garage is broken right now; I've got a migraine; Mrs Jaffa's poorly and I'm trying to avoid getting stuck in to applying the various Hermes patches I've received and pushing *that* through the autobuilder... Dec 12 11:04:12 RST38h: So, it's a definite "maybe" ;-) Dec 12 11:04:45 * Jaffa boggles at "a really good mail experience in those devices". Well, at least Modest on the desktop should attract some more patches :) Dec 12 11:05:27 Jaffa: ok, I will ask someone else Dec 12 11:05:31 I still can't use modest, for some reason it kills my imap server. So at the moment it is mutt for me ... Dec 12 11:05:45 * RST38h has made a few fixes to FBReader, uploaded to non-free for now, needs someone to upload to free Dec 12 11:05:59 RST38h: Can't you push it to free? Dec 12 11:06:07 Jaffa: It does not like me Dec 12 11:06:08 (not a sarcastic question) Dec 12 11:06:22 Jaffa: I.e. I can, but it will take 4-6 hours which I do not have Dec 12 11:06:58 RST38h: I'm probably going to push one in a minute or two Dec 12 11:06:59 So looking for someone who knows the workflow and can do it quickly Dec 12 11:07:10 Jaffa: what devices are these with good mail experience? Dec 12 11:07:19 lardman: Should I give you the tarball? Dec 12 11:07:34 RST38h: tar.gz + .dsc + .diff? Dec 12 11:07:35 lardman: This is from http://blogs.igalia.com/dape/2009/12/11/whats-going-on-in-modest-new-gnomemoblin-port/ Dec 12 11:07:53 lardman: tgz + updated changes file inside Dec 12 11:08:05 RST38h: does it buld as a debian package? Dec 12 11:08:10 lardman: yea Dec 12 11:08:12 if so yeah, I'll generate the files for you Dec 12 11:08:15 go for it Dec 12 11:08:20 lardman: A moment then Dec 12 11:08:26 Jaffa: reading Dec 12 11:08:55 "Last months, Sergio Villar and me have been working on bringing the Modest user experience to both Gnome and Moblin" Dec 12 11:08:59 luke-jr, what fn is for, btw? Dec 12 11:09:01 lol, is that like wishing for a plague? Dec 12 11:09:21 slonopotamus: &|^~` Dec 12 11:09:56 luke-jr, put some of them on shift+5/* Dec 12 11:10:41 thp, around? Dec 12 11:10:55 luke-jr, dot and ampersand Dec 12 11:11:11 err Dec 12 11:11:31 s/dot/tilde/ Dec 12 11:11:54 *groan* uses glade for the menus Dec 12 11:12:13 ShadowJK: I,m somewhat lost. triple checked all my repos in appman. diabled and reenabled each single catalog. no less no trace no gdb no nano. Any hint what else I could do? Dec 12 11:12:47 capslock = hold shift Dec 12 11:12:59 lardman: http://fms.komkon.org/fbreader-0.10.7-fms.tgz Dec 12 11:13:08 noooooes Dec 12 11:13:22 lardman: The tarball includes some .o/.so/etc files, so do not upload it as it is :) Dec 12 11:13:22 downloading now Dec 12 11:13:28 capslock = doubleclick shift Dec 12 11:13:29 no problem Dec 12 11:13:33 luke-jr, what are you gonna use it on?) Dec 12 11:13:34 this is for Fremantle I take it? Dec 12 11:13:46 double shift is ok too Dec 12 11:13:47 I want to contribute to Maemo as a dev. How to start? Dec 12 11:14:10 spsneo, install sdk and choose project :) Dec 12 11:14:27 slonopotamus: where to choose project from? Dec 12 11:14:33 if anyone fancies hacking the menus of Qalculate away, feel free Dec 12 11:14:36 <^kleanchap_> Is maemo available for Slackware and Fedora? Dec 12 11:14:39 I don't have time atm Dec 12 11:14:44 slonopotamus: I want to contribute to kernel internals Dec 12 11:14:59 spsneo: what exactly? Dec 12 11:15:06 <^kleanchap_> Or is this a seperate operating system based on Linux? Dec 12 11:15:06 slonopotamus: dunno Dec 12 11:15:06 spsneo: devicisms? Dec 12 11:15:19 lardmanlardman: Dec 12 11:15:23 slonopotamus: maybe some company will be interested in licensing it or smth Dec 12 11:15:28 spsneo, ouch :) you have some specific feature in mind? Dec 12 11:15:28 RST38h: ja? Dec 12 11:15:29 ^kleanchap_: more or less it's own "operating system" or more accurately a distributino Dec 12 11:15:32 lardman: like memory management, process management, filesystems etc Dec 12 11:15:33 back Dec 12 11:15:41 lardman: yea, maemo5 package Dec 12 11:15:46 ok Dec 12 11:15:54 lardman: will probably work on diablo as well, but no point to use it there Dec 12 11:15:59 lardman: check out the Changes Dec 12 11:16:02 luke-jr, or someone will give you n900 for free? :) Dec 12 11:16:13 no hints ? Dec 12 11:16:20 spsneo: probably best to work with mainline then Dec 12 11:16:34 unless it's device specific Dec 12 11:16:46 in which case mer is a better bet as they will actually accept kernel patches Dec 12 11:16:53 * RST38h wonders if the penguin-bitten are still using "unix fragmentation" as an argument for Linux Dec 12 11:17:01 the standard Nokia produced kernels likely won't Dec 12 11:17:07 slonopotamus: N900 would not work with it Dec 12 11:17:12 spsneo, n8x0 really wants to be able to run modern kernels. Dec 12 11:17:45 slonopotamus: can u give me a link to get started Dec 12 11:17:52 slonopotamus: only 38 keys on N900, and this design uses 64 Dec 12 11:18:02 <^kleanchap_> jebba: Can Meamo be installed on a Fedora system? Dec 12 11:18:07 lardman: I have uploaded the same packageto non-free, so you may want to up the minor release # Dec 12 11:18:25 oh right Dec 12 11:18:25 spsneo, http://elinux.org/N800 Dec 12 11:18:26 oops Dec 12 11:18:30 dunno how it works though Dec 12 11:19:01 just started another build Dec 12 11:19:08 hang on a tick while that ends, then will alter Dec 12 11:19:53 sooo, how is one supposed to exit from OpenArena?-) Dec 12 11:20:08 2 man enter, one man leave Dec 12 11:20:37 it seemed to me there were several men, but indeed, I didn't try that :) Dec 12 11:20:51 mornin folks and chaps and ladies and stuff \o Dec 12 11:20:56 Going out to buy a new doorbell. The old one fell victim to kids. Dec 12 11:20:59 RST38h: hmm, autobuilder is still down Dec 12 11:21:04 ehlo, lcuk Dec 12 11:21:14 lardman: Dec 12 11:21:25 RST38h: I'll push the package up for you tomorrow when I get back though if you want? Dec 12 11:21:25 booo RST38h Dec 12 11:21:35 whats up wiv autobuilder? totally offline? Dec 12 11:21:55 garage maintenance break Dec 12 11:22:25 right got to go and shower, otherwise the wife will kill me! Dec 12 11:22:27 cool Dec 12 11:23:30 ^kleanchap_: the software development kit can be installed on fedora, but not really maemo itself. But i'm not sure i entirely understand the question Dec 12 11:27:09 lardman: The only mail I've seen about that is Conny's asking how long it'll last. Did I miss one? Dec 12 11:27:41 no, I don't think so Dec 12 11:27:47 I've no idea why it's down Dec 12 11:27:55 perhaps to install some new servers? Dec 12 11:28:04 I'd guess so. Dec 12 11:28:07 lardman: Sounds good Dec 12 11:28:32 lardman: Whoever wants to try it will be able to get the binary package from non-free, and whoever wants -free can probably wait. Dec 12 11:28:36 * RST38h laughs demonically Dec 12 11:32:12 RST38h: cool Dec 12 11:32:29 RST38h: will be back tomorrow, Dad's birthday today so heading over to see the parents Dec 12 11:32:44 just built burgerspace hhaha Dec 12 11:45:12 hi! Dec 12 11:46:02 heya Dec 12 11:51:13 cu tomorow Dec 12 11:52:52 hmm Dec 12 11:53:37 does anybody know where to find the program 'less'? package name? Dec 12 11:54:21 maybe even which repository? Dec 12 11:57:08 afaik its its own package Dec 12 11:57:14 less, i have it from somewhere Dec 12 11:57:21 like -testing or -devel Dec 12 11:57:30 you could always just use more until you get it :P Dec 12 11:57:41 most! Dec 12 11:58:13 heya wazd Dec 12 11:58:30 RST38h: moo :) Dec 12 11:58:37 DocScrutinizer: http://repository.maemo.org fremantle/tools/free Dec 12 11:59:11 package name is less Dec 12 12:04:10 well. looks like my n810 has tsken the role of glorified mp3 player heh Dec 12 12:04:33 ale-x: thanks. strange thing is I see packages from fremantle/tools repository. No less package though :-S Dec 12 12:04:43 aha Dec 12 12:05:03 apt-cache policy less Dec 12 12:05:04 less: Dec 12 12:05:04 Installed: (none) Dec 12 12:05:04 Candidate: 418-1maemo2+0m5 Dec 12 12:05:04 Version table: Dec 12 12:05:04 418-1maemo2+0m5 0 Dec 12 12:05:06 500 http://repository.maemo.org fremantle/tools/free Packages Dec 12 12:05:43 heh Dec 12 12:05:47 RST38h: what icon you were asking me for VE? Dec 12 12:07:51 wazd: Anything that makes sense, as far as you care Dec 12 12:08:23 wazd: Usual technical specifics (.svg, simple, non photographic), due to the low pixel counts and physical size Dec 12 12:08:35 ale-x: is this http://wiki.maemo.org/Documentation/devtools/maemo5#Installation correct setup for the repository? Dec 12 12:08:53 * RST38h seriously considers replacing the iconset in FBeader Dec 12 12:09:06 RST38h: oh, you want total replacement? Dec 12 12:09:16 DocScrutinizer51: deb http://repository.maemo.org/ fremantle/tools free Dec 12 12:09:24 wazd: For FBeader? Of course, the current ones suck Dec 12 12:09:28 Macer, I still use mine.. the screen is better :) Dec 12 12:09:30 RST38h: no, VE Dec 12 12:09:33 I guess so. DocScrutinizer Dec 12 12:09:45 RST38h: aaaah Dec 12 12:09:50 RST38h: damn) Dec 12 12:09:55 RST38h: you need app icon :) Dec 12 12:09:58 wazd: VE only needs one icon :) Dec 12 12:10:06 RST38h: I thought you need some icon for UI :) Dec 12 12:10:15 RST38h: stupid me :P Dec 12 12:10:28 wazd: FBReader needs a bunch, but unless you feel like designing the whole bunch, I will simply takes the older iconset for it Dec 12 12:10:37 ShadowJK: than the n900? Dec 12 12:10:48 you mean bigger right ? ;) Dec 12 12:10:55 bigger, and I think the picture is better too Dec 12 12:11:24 n900 touchscreen sensitivity owns n810, of course :) Dec 12 12:11:43 Autobuilder seems to be back. Dec 12 12:12:06 yahooo Dec 12 12:12:12 RST38h: 48x48 as I recall? Dec 12 12:12:20 i think my g1 has a better ts than my n810 Dec 12 12:12:27 wazd: 26x26, 40x40, 48x48, 64x64 Dec 12 12:12:35 wazd: In other words, an svg Dec 12 12:12:36 RST38h: ah, k Dec 12 12:12:47 ah well. let me do some stuff Dec 12 12:12:47 Macer: ts? Dec 12 12:12:48 * lcukn900 is at santas grotto! Dec 12 12:13:12 i'm very excited! Dec 12 12:13:29 ale-x: jebba: I,m using appmanager and there definitely is no package less or Less or anything with name or description *less* Dec 12 12:13:42 DocScrutinizer: apt-get install less Dec 12 12:13:49 you could use a trerminal and apt-get install less Dec 12 12:13:54 many of the things are not in app-manager Dec 12 12:14:00 lol, SpeedEvil1 has evil speed *g* Dec 12 12:14:14 DocScrutinizer51: Command-line stuff can best be found using apt-get; since you're going to run it on the command-line anyway. Dec 12 12:14:24 Also, less *used* to be in the tools repo; dunno if it's in extras now. Dec 12 12:14:27 DocScrutinizer51: in appmanager many CLI apps dont show. You have to do something "special" to make apps show up there, i'm not sure what yet. Dec 12 12:14:56 hmm, should grab the key too Dec 12 12:15:02 SpeedEvil1: yesyes. Always though appman is just a graphical frontend for apt Dec 12 12:15:15 so that you dont have to deal with the authentication message Dec 12 12:15:19 jebba: oooh Dec 12 12:15:23 o.o Dec 12 12:15:27 jebba: It's called "red-pill mode". And it's dangerous, and not worth it. Dec 12 12:15:56 HAM doesn't scale to enormous package lists; so you're better off with `apt-cache search' and `apt-get install'. Dec 12 12:17:06 It doesn't even really scale to -devel, -tools - * enabled really Dec 12 12:17:21 Scrolling through the list of all packages is quite ridiculous. Dec 12 12:17:28 As is the lack of a sort by time added Dec 12 12:17:32 that's why there are sections? Dec 12 12:19:00 ok. point taken Dec 12 12:20:48 ~lart package manager Dec 12 12:20:48 * infobot blasts package manager to oblivion with a kamehameha wave Dec 12 12:20:57 * DocScrutinizer51 hugs his shell Dec 12 12:22:06 heh Dec 12 12:22:18 red pill mode pahh!! could have been mentioned somewhere next to repository and app download in wiki Dec 12 12:22:20 yeah I'll probably comment them for now, and enable them when I need anything Dec 12 12:24:05 * Dr_Cain installs dosbox Dec 12 12:24:15 DocScrutinizer51: No, it really shouldn't be. It's a hack, it can cause users to install packages that then break things. If a user is going to use `less' at a commandline, it can be installed via apt-get. It's not like SSH or something Dec 12 12:24:44 * DocScrutinizer51 hates apps telling lies to user. like appman and fileman Dec 12 12:25:27 So don't use them. Dec 12 12:25:39 I use apt-get and bash. Dec 12 12:25:41 and install mc :) Dec 12 12:25:47 yea Dec 12 12:25:56 and remove MicroB Dec 12 12:25:58 mc sacks Dec 12 12:26:08 Jaffa: if the mere fact appman tells lies was mentioned somewhere I had a few less hair gone gray Dec 12 12:26:15 yeah, hail ztree! Dec 12 12:26:35 "dh_clean: Sorry, but 5 is the highest compatibility level supported by this debhelper." I downgraded debhelper Build-Depends: to version 5. How to unfoo this one? Dec 12 12:27:49 thats a question for #maemo-dev :) Dec 12 12:27:52 ZTree looks like CP/M PIP Dec 12 12:28:04 well, it looks like xtree gold Dec 12 12:28:07 * jebba answers me: change debian/compat from 7 to 5 Dec 12 12:28:08 i dont know PIP Dec 12 12:28:17 Of course you do not Dec 12 12:28:21 but xtree rocks the house Dec 12 12:28:31 well, i once had a cp/m machine in my house :) Dec 12 12:28:37 but i didnt have PIP Dec 12 12:29:02 * RST38h facepalms looking at the latest tmo threads: "how to install a deb file" Dec 12 12:29:17 comes with cp/m 2.2 Dec 12 12:29:19 not being all that familiar with apt; if dpkg -L says a package should have stuff in /usr/share/doc/appname/ but that directory isn't there, is that an apt-get option to skip over doc files or something similar? Dec 12 12:29:51 JosefAssad: the installer is removing the stuff in /usr/share/doc/foo to save space. Dec 12 12:29:55 maemo quirk Dec 12 12:30:01 jebba: aha, ok. Thanks! Dec 12 12:30:01 RST38h: don't worry. next year it'll be worse Dec 12 12:30:17 jebba: might prompt a rethink though since a lot of licenses go in there... Dec 12 12:30:29 There's even a /usr/share/doc/README Dec 12 12:30:35 Although the explanation is terse. Dec 12 12:30:57 DocScrutinizer51: It doesn't lie. It only shows packages in Section: user/* Dec 12 12:31:04 Arachnoid: you mean, when maemo will be nokia's flagship-OS? :p Dec 12 12:31:08 DocScrutinizer51: This is relatively well documented, but feel free to edit any appropriate wiki page Dec 12 12:31:09 JosefAssad: yes, and the app manager doesn't list licenses either Dec 12 12:31:37 derf: you bet bash will be next pkg to install. Andfor not using appmgr: every second howto says "appmanager nukes your edits in sources.list, so better use appmngr to setup the repositories" Dec 12 12:31:55 jebba: Just dump all your documentation in / like omweather does. Dec 12 12:32:13 heh. didnt see that derf ;) Dec 12 12:32:20 is there a easy way to create a desktop shortcut/application that would start the terminal and directly run something else than just the shell on it? (of course, I want to maintain normal terminal with shell too...) Dec 12 12:32:24 keep it in /proc ? ;) Dec 12 12:32:25 Jaffa: err I don,t get you. section user/* ? Dec 12 12:32:35 Well, not "all" the documentation, I guess. Just the help file. Dec 12 12:32:59 oh, they are even giving each other wrong instructions on how to install debs Dec 12 12:33:13 and they do it "to get the emulators that have been removed running" Dec 12 12:33:25 RST38h: Why is any of this surprising? Dec 12 12:33:26 Solution: desktop widgets with licenses. One widget for each app. Dec 12 12:33:57 derf: None of it is, but it seems to be like a perfectly dumb thread Dec 12 12:33:59 RST38h: why they made .deb so difficult to install in the first place? Dec 12 12:34:05 in ubuntu it is just click and play Dec 12 12:34:13 moo: to keep idiots from installing debs Dec 12 12:34:26 moo: In response, the Nature created better idiots Dec 12 12:34:34 She always does. Dec 12 12:34:42 But seriously though, speaking at least for GPL, isn't it a license violation to not distribute the license? Dec 12 12:34:57 JosefAssad: It's in the .deb file. Dec 12 12:34:58 RST38h: that's very healthy attidude towards people. I suggest you move to some far and remote place e.g. moon :) Dec 12 12:35:18 derf: is that legally sufficient? I don't actually know, just asking Dec 12 12:35:24 moo: I am already in a place that does not favor idiots. Dec 12 12:35:25 I'm not a lawyer. Dec 12 12:35:29 alright Dec 12 12:35:54 moo: No warning labels, no FDA, etc. Dec 12 12:37:17 RST38h: even no "warning, low ceiling" sign? :( Dec 12 12:37:45 wazd: Ever seen that one? I have not. Dec 12 12:38:08 DocScrutinizer51: If you look at a package, say, http://maemo.org/packages/package_instance/view/fremantle_extras_free_armel/hermes/0.2.2 - you'll see that it has a "Section". If it starts `user/', Application Manager will show it to the user and categorise it according to the bit following (there are a defined set, anything else ends up in 'Other'). Dec 12 12:38:14 RST38h: no, but I'm reaching that ceilings with my head from time to time :D Dec 12 12:38:52 wazd: see, it makes you smarter =) Dec 12 12:38:58 Jaffa: aaah many thanks :-) Dec 12 12:38:58 (more careful, at least :)) Dec 12 12:39:02 RST38h: I don't think so :D :D Dec 12 12:39:38 RST38h: How a hit with concrete will make me smarter I wonder? :) Dec 12 12:40:43 RST38h: I think situation architect is an idiot actually :) Dec 12 12:41:04 RST38h: cause it's him who made stairs for freaking hobbits Dec 12 12:41:27 wazd: It will weed out all the dumb people =) Dec 12 12:41:44 wazd: What is the building? You are not talking about the MSU main dorm by any chance? Dec 12 12:41:58 RST38h: mostly underground passes Dec 12 12:42:05 Oh those Dec 12 12:42:18 I am sure there is a GOST for those =) Dec 12 12:42:28 RST38h: I have to low my head too much to just enter some of them :) Dec 12 12:42:29 * ShadowJK wishes he had a real camera Dec 12 12:43:48 wazd: people were shorter in the 50s. =) Dec 12 12:45:16 Ah, cool, Google made a special iPhone Latitude app Dec 12 12:45:25 webapp, even, works with Maemo Dec 12 12:48:03 RST38h: Yup. lardman, zaheerm and I have been using it to good effect for the last week Dec 12 12:48:34 wazd thanks for your grass contribution :D Dec 12 12:48:38 Jaffa: so to make a package available in HAM, i just change "games" to "user/games" done, voila? Dec 12 12:56:36 lcukn900: this thread is up for a day and no artist asked if he could help Dec 12 12:57:01 lcukn900: they are all too busy looking for someone to help I guess :D Dec 12 12:57:17 what art is needed? Dec 12 12:57:43 pupnik: http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=36698 Dec 12 12:58:24 grrr garage is down :( :( Dec 12 12:58:41 screw that. write the game first using boxes Dec 12 12:59:03 pupnik: it's done already :) Dec 12 12:59:10 pupnik: relax :D Dec 12 13:00:35 i have a game called ' Dec 12 13:00:37 Sven' Dec 12 13:00:40 about sheep Dec 12 13:01:04 holy ... brb Dec 12 13:01:29 pupnik, ehehe Dec 12 13:02:05 pupnik, it's a shame that only runs on windows, otherwise would be a good maemo port ;) Dec 12 13:02:49 i am looking for publisher/author email Dec 12 13:03:16 to answer myself again re: HAM, yes. :) Dec 12 13:04:16 I think you add "XB-Maemo-Display-Name: BurgerSpace" to debian/control to make it appear in the applications list once installed. Now to figure out XB-Maemo-Icon-26: .... Dec 12 13:05:17 jebba, that for the app manager icon Dec 12 13:05:57 si Dec 12 13:06:00 jebba, http://wiki.maemo.org/Documentation/Maemo_5_Developer_Guide/Packaging%2C_Deploying_and_Distributing Dec 12 13:06:02 i see how o make one Dec 12 13:06:03 ya. Dec 12 13:06:22 VDVsx: this has a good explaination too: http://wiki.maemo.org/Maemo_packaging thx btw :) Dec 12 13:06:58 jebba, that for diablo ^ Dec 12 13:07:20 fremantle uses 48*48 icons in the app manager Dec 12 13:07:40 funny, my n900 lost its wlan connectivity, although it thought it was connected (reboot resolved it) Dec 12 13:09:40 VDVsx: ah, mejor Dec 12 13:09:51 why is liqflow so addictive? Dec 12 13:10:55 if by addictive you mean boring, arachnist, then I don't know! Dec 12 13:11:10 arachnist: maybe it's your meds Dec 12 13:11:28 Anyway, it doesn't work... I poured water into the headphone socket as instructed and just ended up with a blank screen! Dec 12 13:11:42 has someone tried using a (nokia) bt-hf with n900? is mine just broken down, or does the sound quality bad enough to be judged buggy? Dec 12 13:11:56 hm, does -> is Dec 12 13:13:06 flux, mu bh-905 works nicely Dec 12 13:13:09 VDVsx: the last two lines contain this of the uu output. Where do I cut? Dec 12 13:13:09 3Ge9AgAAAABJRU5ErkJggg== Dec 12 13:13:09 ==== Dec 12 13:13:47 jebba, remove all == Dec 12 13:14:15 jebba, be careful with the "heading" spaces in each lines, those are required Dec 12 13:14:29 jeanjean, ok, so perhaps it's time to upgrade :) Dec 12 13:14:35 flux: I used a Sony-BT-HS and worked grea Dec 12 13:14:38 t Dec 12 13:15:37 VDVsx: not quite sure what you mean by heading. Here's my icon: http://pastebin.ca/1712097 I ran this to make it: uuencode -m src/images/burgerspace.png src/imas/burgerspace.png > /tmp/burgerspace.png.en Dec 12 13:16:09 flux: for decent stereo audio you need A2DP pairing. SCO will give you abyssmal mono noise Dec 12 13:16:32 ah! a space before each line i see now Dec 12 13:17:36 jebba, http://pastebin.ca/1712100 Dec 12 13:17:41 jebba, yes Dec 12 13:18:03 VDVsx: cool thx. package coming up :) Dec 12 13:18:29 god damned hard to click links in xchat Dec 12 13:18:32 docscrutinizer, any suggestions of one that would let plug in my own headphones, but would have a builtin microphone? Dec 12 13:18:52 I suppose I could as well use it for music listening then, if the quality is good enough Dec 12 13:19:06 vdvsx how are you this mornin Dec 12 13:20:50 lcukn900, fine thanks :) Dec 12 13:21:09 lcukn900, hope you're well too ::D Dec 12 13:21:15 how well would the x screensavers work on n900 i have the shoal 3d aquarium on my machine Dec 12 13:21:21 and want it on n900 Dec 12 13:21:27 im gr8 i think Dec 12 13:21:40 just took jake to see santa Dec 12 13:21:48 hehe Dec 12 13:21:51 exit Dec 12 13:22:11 lcukn900, I never saw a screesaver in the n900, I guess Dec 12 13:22:21 flux: sony HBH-DS220 Dec 12 13:22:31 heh well i know its a battery killer Dec 12 13:22:32 my 5 year old son asked yesterday if i would give him (in spanish) the "camera fone computer". Even he knows its not just a phone ;) Dec 12 13:22:56 but for in home use with a profile "run when charging" it might be cool Dec 12 13:23:01 awesome Dec 12 13:23:15 jebba, forward to nokia marketing ;) Dec 12 13:23:24 lcukn900: I want one too Dec 12 13:23:36 lcukn900: I want xlock -inroot flame in the background of the desktop Dec 12 13:23:37 mame + marble madness + accelerometer Dec 12 13:23:38 :) Dec 12 13:23:44 lcukn900: It shouldn't be _that_ bad. Dec 12 13:23:47 loads of my liq* stuff would work as screensavers Dec 12 13:24:04 lcukn900: as the desktop only shows some of the time, and it only shows for 30s unless the user touches it. Dec 12 13:24:39 lcukn900: screensavers are saving exactly nothing. They *wase* CPU cycles and thus your battery Dec 12 13:24:42 docscrutinizer, thanks, woudln't have found it as my usual dealer doesn't carry them :) Dec 12 13:24:44 cool i guess the problem is the desktop ones are geared for full gl Dec 12 13:24:46 waste even Dec 12 13:25:06 they look pretty tho and when charging are ok Dec 12 13:25:19 idle distractions Dec 12 13:25:24 docscrutinizer, any experience on how's the battery life when streaming music to it? Dec 12 13:25:28 when charging yes Dec 12 13:25:31 lcukn900: I suspect most of us know this. Dec 12 13:25:35 DocScrutinizer: Dec 12 13:25:52 flux: I haven't managed to deplete the bat Dec 12 13:25:58 good morning Dec 12 13:26:04 so I think it's quite some hours Dec 12 13:26:11 docscrutinizer, I was thinking the phone battery.. Dec 12 13:26:28 aah Dec 12 13:26:48 heh that would be cool. designate percentage of battery for use with other stuff Dec 12 13:26:48 "Sorry for the inconvenience. garage has a maintenance break." that's actually really good news :) Dec 12 13:27:06 once that percentage is gone phone drops back to being basic model Dec 12 13:27:18 no, haven't done streaming of music to N900 operating from bat Dec 12 13:31:43 lcukn900, sounds like a general purpose policy daemon Dec 12 13:33:10 docscrutinizer, some amazon review says it can do 2 hours music streaming, which doesn't sound that high.. Dec 12 13:33:32 indeed johnx something of the sort that ccooke is looking to implement :) Dec 12 13:33:42 the phone? Dec 12 13:33:56 docscrutinizer, the HBH-DS220 Dec 12 13:34:04 ahh Dec 12 13:34:14 also apparently pairing it with both the phone and the laptop is going to be a drag Dec 12 13:34:26 lcuk, yup. I woke up thinking about it a couple hours ago Dec 12 13:35:32 wtf http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldnews/article-1234430/Mystery-spiral-blue-light-display-hovers-Norway.html Dec 12 13:36:18 a ballistic rocket went out of control, spiralling while spewing fuel, nothing to see here, move along Dec 12 13:36:33 looks kewl tho Dec 12 13:37:20 flux: I just checked manual. Says 8h approx. Pairing of BT-HSs with more than one source isn't a frequently found capability Dec 12 13:37:49 TomaszD, I'm sure it rather was some sort of alien gravity technology stolen by russians to americans in the zone 51 ! Dec 12 13:37:58 of course Dec 12 13:37:59 docscrutinizer, 8h of music streaming over bt, or something else? Dec 12 13:38:07 because that'd be enough :) Dec 12 13:38:41 flux: 8h of listening aka using the bt-hs HBH-DS220 Dec 12 13:39:33 flux: that's what I would guess as well, as I for sure used it for >2h and bat indicator wasn't that much at low end Dec 12 13:40:20 docscrutinizer, ok, nice to know Dec 12 13:40:46 I've been wondering if it's more energy-efficient to stream via bt or via FM, though Dec 12 13:40:59 I would need to measure that some day :) Dec 12 13:41:45 flux: FM - by a wide margin Dec 12 13:42:19 doesn't the bt chip have to be on to use the fm tuner? Dec 12 13:42:26 FM is a low-power reciever only - it will use under 10mW or so. And it will presumably simply be connected to the speakers in some analog manner, meaning the CPU doesn't need to get involved at all Dec 12 13:42:27 in that case a builtin FM receiver would be a nice thing to have in that Dec 12 13:42:27 though it'd stay in low power mode I guess Dec 12 13:42:48 also, it's not connected to the speakers through analog Dec 12 13:42:58 k Dec 12 13:43:17 it's funny btw how FM transmitter works without an external antenna, but receiving requires (?) it Dec 12 13:43:33 what range do you get with xmitter Dec 12 13:43:35 jebba: Correct. Dec 12 13:43:44 SpeedEvil: flux: are we talking N900 or headset now?? Dec 12 13:44:00 Ah - sorry - I haven't properly woken up Dec 12 13:44:16 I misread that as listening to audio via the n900 Dec 12 13:44:19 I was talking about the energy efficiency of streaming music out of N900 Dec 12 13:46:09 this is fine, no? "dpkg-genchanges: warning: unknown information field `Xb-Maemo-Display-Name' in input data in package's section of control info file" Dec 12 13:46:48 lcuk: that's russian's Bulava failed again :D Dec 12 13:47:00 lcuk: nothing serious Dec 12 13:48:22 looks good Dec 12 13:49:02 flux: I'd guess there's hardly any noiticeable diff between sending audio via BT vs via FM-TX Dec 12 13:49:37 both short range low power RF Dec 12 13:49:57 * SpeedEvil ponders getting off arse, and measuring crap. Dec 12 13:50:12 * SpeedEvil realises he's lost BT headphones. Dec 12 13:50:16 and you need a lot of thewhole system up and active which will eat much more Dec 12 13:50:50 any sort of streaming from compressed media is gonna need 'lots' of power Dec 12 13:51:07 DocScrutinizer, BT is digital tho ? FM-TX is analogue ? Dec 12 13:51:14 yes exactly Dec 12 13:51:26 yes odin_ Dec 12 13:51:47 * SpeedEvil wants digital audio transmitter. Dec 12 13:51:56 but that' way more complex Dec 12 13:53:13 cat my_music.wav > /dev/fm Dec 12 13:53:14 :) Dec 12 13:53:26 TomaszD: pong Dec 12 13:53:38 * odin_ holds nose at thp Dec 12 13:54:06 having said that - uncompressed audio will only be better if the DAC has a really huge buffer Dec 12 13:54:27 and I don't think it does - so you're going to be waking several times a second - even neglecting pulseaudio Dec 12 13:55:32 ouch pa Dec 12 13:56:20 Ahaha Dec 12 13:56:27 I don't understand why nobody - that I can see - has come up with a leetle DAC with ~1M or so of memory, that you can wake up, jam audio into at the full rate you can, and go to sleep again Dec 12 13:56:28 Pandora delayed again Dec 12 13:56:41 thp, got my email? Dec 12 13:56:54 GAN900, yeah. thanks for diplomacy Dec 12 13:57:07 SpeedEvil: dont do this things DMA? Dec 12 13:57:19 cehteh: DMA isn't the point Dec 12 13:57:23 SpeedEvil: dunno of 34$x companion chip Dec 12 13:57:24 TomaszD: yep. i'm in bug-fixing mode today, but let's see if i can add panucci to transifex ;) Dec 12 13:57:32 do the n900 audio apps use the dsp or the cpu? Dec 12 13:57:32 cehteh: DMA means that the system has to be awake to DMA Dec 12 13:57:50 Pandora pwns at been delayed Dec 12 13:57:51 thp, that'd be cool :) Dec 12 13:57:55 SpeedEvil: you sure it doesn't? Dec 12 13:57:58 thp, and also the plural forms Dec 12 13:57:59 cehteh: I mean wake for ~1s, jam 10s of audio into a buffer, and power down 99% of the system, keeping only the DAC alive Dec 12 13:58:09 DocScrutinizer: no - I need to read more crap. Dec 12 13:58:18 At least, there's a "status page" @ openpandora showing the progress Dec 12 13:58:30 SpeedEvil: well if you have to keep the main memory awake for dma or some buffer in the dac it wont be much of a change except for a lot more complexity and cost i assume Dec 12 13:58:42 cehteh: yes, there is. Dec 12 13:58:49 note that you need an extra memory controler for this 1mb buffer Dec 12 13:59:00 well maybe a good idea, but pricy Dec 12 13:59:15 cehteh: as for the main RAM to be alive, you need the SoC memory controller to be alive and ... I was assuming internal to the DAC/audio chip. Dec 12 13:59:19 woohoo my N900 should be delivered before Christmas Dec 12 13:59:25 Flandry: Woo! Dec 12 13:59:53 sup dawgs Dec 12 14:00:25 * Flandry tiptoes back out of a deep conversation on DMA Dec 12 14:00:29 Flandry: mine too .. before chrismas 2010 :) Dec 12 14:00:34 I installed openssh client+server on my n900, now I want to SSH/SCP into it but it says access denied :( what user should I log in as? I thought "user" but... apparently not Dec 12 14:00:35 :/ Dec 12 14:00:36 TomaszD: i'll keep the plural forms for later, i guess. want to push out a release "really soon now" Dec 12 14:00:38 woof woof .... more like a farmyard everyday! Dec 12 14:00:43 heh, just saw that on nokia's official page Dec 12 14:00:43 SpeedEvil: you probably also could do DMA while CPU is completely asleep Dec 12 14:00:59 sinofenvy, when you installed the server, it asked for a new root password. so, login as root. Dec 12 14:01:00 thp, really soon = ? Dec 12 14:01:06 yes you can do dma while the cpu is asleep Dec 12 14:01:08 ah okay flux, cheers Dec 12 14:01:12 sinofenvy, I suppose you could set a password to the user 'user' and login as user also Dec 12 14:01:14 isnt that the point of dma? :) Dec 12 14:01:19 TomaszD: today, tomorrow.. hopefully :) Dec 12 14:01:23 thp, ok Dec 12 14:01:28 cehteh: CPU and memory controller are largely one though. Dec 12 14:01:49 cehteh: If you can turn the CPU off, stick memory in self-refresh, the savings are quite high. Dec 12 14:01:54 yes but the cpu is very good in putting single functional units to sleep Dec 12 14:02:09 SpeedEvil: don't think so Dec 12 14:02:17 cehteh: especially compared to waking every .1s to compute another .1s of data. Dec 12 14:03:01 i dont know how well that works on arm but i suppose every single thing can be put to sleep down to ALU, single FPU pipelines, Caches ... Dec 12 14:03:28 next big thing would be to offload as much audio playing as possible to the dsp ... Dec 12 14:03:30 SpeedEvil: keep in mind the TI special powersaving hw Dec 12 14:03:37 yeah Dec 12 14:03:38 thp, btw, I've completed my translation and fixed many issues spotted on the desktop version, also fixed some things for maemo, so it's good to go from my point of view :) Dec 12 14:03:59 I've been feeling really horrid this couple of weeks - so haven';t been doing the digging I'd wanted to. Been in bed most of the day Dec 12 14:04:05 btw, another energy-efficiency thing I've been wondering about: which is more efficient, streaming 64kbps AAC+ or 128kbps MP3? Dec 12 14:04:07 feeling a bit better today though Dec 12 14:04:09 SpeedEvil: well such buffering made me once think about if it is possible for the network stack too Dec 12 14:04:17 cehteh: yes. Dec 12 14:04:19 SpeedEvil: it,s working automatically on a very finegrained subsystem basis Dec 12 14:04:20 thp, having panucci in transifex would be great, also you need the bugtracker field Dec 12 14:04:33 cehteh: but you need app/kernel support Dec 12 14:04:40 certainly Dec 12 14:04:43 streaming off the net over 3G (or wlan), that is Dec 12 14:05:04 cehteh: I was wondering about a _hyper_ hacky thing - something like for example nice level 19 only got scheduled once every 30s, nice level 18 every 10. Dec 12 14:05:21 johnx, see camkeyd yet? Dec 12 14:05:43 cehteh: which would tend to bunch wifi. you for example nice xchat down to 19 on display going away, and it gets a slice of CPU every 60s Dec 12 14:05:46 SpeedEvil: thats partially possible ... nice 19 gets automatically the SCHED_BATCH scheduling class Dec 12 14:06:03 so... can I access the files of the "mass storage mode" over SCP as well? Dec 12 14:06:07 well i would rather do that in a irc proxy Dec 12 14:06:15 GAN900, installed, loving it. I wish two presses sent me to applications rather than (nothing)||(camera) Dec 12 14:06:15 cehteh: yes - that's another good option Dec 12 14:06:32 cork alot of messages and batch them out Dec 12 14:06:44 cehteh: I need to finish off my hacks around a web differential proxy, and get something working Dec 12 14:06:57 with variable delays, if the user is active then maybe every 250ms otherwise every 2000ms Dec 12 14:07:13 gan900, my installation opened both the camera and the process view, but it was from a few days back.. has it been improved? Dec 12 14:07:29 cehteh: ebay.com/auction2 - if you've loaded ebay.com/auction1 in the (250M of cached data) past, it sends not the page, but a diff of auction2 against auction1 Dec 12 14:07:59 cehteh: it seems to work quite well in some basic sums I did - but I need to do a proper actual working proxy Dec 12 14:08:10 sinofenvy, I haven't tried it [mass storage mode], but that sounds unlikely.. Dec 12 14:08:21 unless perhaps in read only mode Dec 12 14:08:25 (but even then) Dec 12 14:08:29 hmm yeah okay Dec 12 14:08:35 I didn't think it'd be possible Dec 12 14:08:38 but I had a little hope XP Dec 12 14:08:50 cehteh: both the proxy, and the remote proxy on a fast network share a cache context. Dec 12 14:09:42 thp, with panucci, when something finishes playing, is there a way to start it up again? I couldn't find a way Dec 12 14:10:15 TomaszD: no, except for selecting the file again Dec 12 14:10:34 thp, and... this is good design? :) Dec 12 14:11:18 no. feel free to send patches ;) Dec 12 14:11:22 heh Dec 12 14:14:40 this nice19 idea sounds quite odd to me. AIUI a program that's on IO-wait or in another way sleeping won't get any cpu cycle. Not even scheduler itself should be running until some hw or timer IRQ awakes cpu. So absolutely no need to suspend an anyway sleeping task with nice 19 for 30 sec Dec 12 14:17:54 flux, don't press it all the way down. Dec 12 14:17:54 thp, I could try some concepting for panucci though, would you be interested in some? Dec 12 14:18:04 flux, use the autofocus step. Dec 12 14:18:06 gan900, oh :) Dec 12 14:18:26 gan900, perhaps I should give it another spin then :) Dec 12 14:18:40 any task no in sleep 99.99% of the time is either doing some work that mustn't be delayed by 30sec suspend. or it's fubar Dec 12 14:20:02 johnx, not so far, would be nice but just this so far is awesome. Dec 12 14:20:21 Hoping to get fullscreen on proximity. Dec 12 14:20:46 ugh. do not want Dec 12 14:21:54 thp, I think I have something that would really work well Dec 12 14:21:57 noo, is there any fix for the rootfs size -problem? Dec 12 14:22:14 it seems that it's going to full very easily and I guess it will broke lots of things then... Dec 12 14:29:03 * evo just uploaded his 13GB music library to his N900 Dec 12 14:29:20 looks like it doesn't like some of the covers, *sigh* Dec 12 14:29:45 DocScrutinizer: however - the point of this isn't directly to save CPU. It's to save activity which is high cost to initiate. Be that spinning up disks, sending a packet over 3G, ... Dec 12 14:31:20 evo: so you've bought all that, huh? Dec 12 14:31:23 SpeedEvil: you'll want to use a sleep 30 inside app Dec 12 14:31:42 DocScrutinizer: in principle, yes. Dec 12 14:31:55 DocScrutinizer: this is a hack to avoid doing that for many apps. Dec 12 14:32:26 wont fly Dec 12 14:32:38 yuizy: are you jealous or just trolling? Dec 12 14:33:24 DocScrutinizer: In what way do you mean won't fly? It seems to actually work - with the stupid test of stopping and restarting the process. I agree in its outlined form it would never get upstream approval. Dec 12 14:33:25 just kidding :p Dec 12 14:33:40 yuizy: ok, sorry then Dec 12 14:33:52 DocScrutinizer: it was more as a proof of concept test than anything else. Dec 12 14:35:02 I don't see any proof in stopping a task for 30sec and then claim it's actually not running. Dec 12 14:35:23 that's quite self evident Dec 12 14:36:19 but as mentioned before there are not tasks that use lots of resources and same time may be stopped for prolonged periods of time Dec 12 14:38:49 DocScrutinizer: Not lots of resources. Occasional packets of network activity through expensive to activate interfaces. Dec 12 14:39:40 I don,t see any of those heavy activation overhead IO Dec 12 14:39:53 on N900 Dec 12 14:40:28 3G Dec 12 14:40:51 so wha's wrong with 3G? Dec 12 14:41:24 When I attempted to measure it, I got a figure indicating that the cost to send one teeny packet is _way_ disproportionate to its size. Dec 12 14:41:31 I need to check properly though Dec 12 14:41:44 do you let the data interface stay up all the time? Dec 12 14:41:52 waking up the radio is expensive Dec 12 14:42:12 you think you find a task the sends an occasional packet' and in the meantime some magic is powering down the modem? Dec 12 14:42:14 johnx: yes - this is a hack, rather than any logical attempt to avoid waking it in the right way Dec 12 14:45:37 A'ok. I have added the fullscreen icon and the old icons to FBReader Dec 12 14:46:51 There is a library for coordinating with other apps when to send packets Dec 12 14:47:14 Once you wake up the 3g modem by sending/receiving packets, you might as well go full blast for 10 seconds or something Dec 12 14:47:35 btw, xchat is quite effective at preventing the CPU from ever reaching C4 sleep state Dec 12 14:47:44 johnx, well, that's why you make it configurable. ;) Dec 12 14:47:46 ShadowJK: how do you tell? Dec 12 14:47:51 ShadowJK: is there powertop? Dec 12 14:47:58 yes there's powertop Dec 12 14:48:02 10 seconds is an eternity in networking. Dec 12 14:48:02 where? Dec 12 14:48:10 might've been tools repo? Dec 12 14:48:18 ShadowJK: duh. xchat behaves really nice here Dec 12 14:48:32 argh - just when I've powered down my n900 :) Dec 12 14:48:56 DocScrutinizer, in powertop too? Dec 12 14:49:30 it still does like a day on wlan anyway.. Dec 12 14:49:43 E: Couldn't find package powertop Dec 12 14:49:55 I have tools, extras-devel enabled Dec 12 14:49:57 thoughts? Dec 12 14:50:17 SpeedEvil: which value/dimension is the assumed overhead in "starting" umts xfer? time? cpu usage? current consumption? Dec 12 14:50:29 how do i tell wherefrom i got it Dec 12 14:50:47 ShadowJK: (a day) that's my point Dec 12 14:51:00 DocScrutinizer: I measured - preliminarily with an improper setup - a not inconsiderable amount of current for a few seconds around sending a packet. Dec 12 14:51:48 i think radio must stay transmitting something like 3-5 secs after last packet.. depends on network too Dec 12 14:52:08 SpeedEvil: that,s quite normal. sending packet means TX Dec 12 14:52:09 thp, tell me what you think, this is just landscape for now http://imgur.com/Cwd2y.jpg Dec 12 14:52:26 xchat on 3g had similar battery life as shoutcast on 3g :) Dec 12 14:52:33 ShadowJK: :D Dec 12 14:52:40 SpeedEvil: I don't see how you spot a *overhead* though Dec 12 14:52:45 Yay! Pretty: https://wiki.maemo.org/Maemo.org_Sprints/December_09#Activity_log Dec 12 14:52:53 wazd: Interested in doing the new icons for FBReader, btw? Dec 12 14:53:44 DocScrutinizer, compare mWh per byte in the xchar case and in the shoutcast case, consider the difference as "overhead" Dec 12 14:53:53 i want my n900 *grr* Dec 12 14:54:02 what icons does fbreader need? Just the shortcut? Dec 12 14:54:27 cehteh: any news from your dealer? Dec 12 14:54:44 ShadowJK: that's a rather arbitrary equation Dec 12 14:54:47 RST38h: yes, but not now :) Dec 12 14:54:50 sure is Dec 12 14:54:58 RST38h: long list of current projects :) Dec 12 14:55:50 ShadowJK: GPRS has to use/transmit one complete timeslot. No matter if it,s filled or not Dec 12 14:56:14 yeah, but the timeslots are tiny? Dec 12 14:56:15 whats the packet size for gprs? Dec 12 14:56:41 ShadowJK: depends on what you consider tiny Dec 12 14:57:09 less than 100kbyte ;) Dec 12 14:57:20 yep Dec 12 14:57:33 probably less than 10k? Dec 12 14:57:52 it's more like MTA Dec 12 14:58:03 mtu? Dec 12 14:58:27 depending on what u use: gprs or umts or even hspa Dec 12 14:58:37 mtu of course Dec 12 14:58:40 blah Dec 12 14:59:19 I usually switch it to gprs/edge only when I'm at work with no charger access :) Dec 12 14:59:31 Macer: better knowledge? please join in Dec 12 14:59:45 otherwise irc drains the battery in 4 hours on umts/hspa Dec 12 15:00:31 k, noice time for a test... Dec 12 15:00:37 DocScrutinizer: connect a DMM Dec 12 15:00:42 16.00 local time Dec 12 15:00:42 DocScrutinizer: observe current Dec 12 15:00:48 i wonder if you could setup a buffered ircd to send over everything from your chans every 30s or 1min Dec 12 15:00:52 rather than dribbling Dec 12 15:00:55 DocScrutinizer: but I'm trying to setup something that will actually measure Dec 12 15:00:57 send it in defined bursts Dec 12 15:01:07 lcuk, modified bnc Dec 12 15:01:32 tho i dont notice irc draining that badly Dec 12 15:01:50 depends alot on activity Dec 12 15:02:08 its irc! Dec 12 15:02:25 yeah but say 30 chans Dec 12 15:02:44 speaking of which, o2 internet died before Dec 12 15:02:44 RST38h: what icons does fbreader need? Just the shortcut? Dec 12 15:02:54 it's fine on wlan anyways :) Dec 12 15:03:39 Argh. Dec 12 15:03:45 * SpeedEvil has lost his bl-5j Dec 12 15:04:20 thats not good Dec 12 15:04:36 meh - I can use the spare - I need to discahrge anyway Dec 12 15:05:33 xorAxAx: no Dec 12 15:05:36 so let's see what it's actually like with xchat over UMTS Dec 12 15:05:46 TomaszD: thanks :) looks good. btw, the strings in gpodder should be frozen now for the release in case you want to translate the remaining ones Dec 12 15:06:11 Josef: No, the whole toolbar, two lists (files and book) and the app icon Dec 12 15:06:24 bat at 100, 16:00 local time Dec 12 15:06:29 http://cache.gawker.com/assets/images/4/2009/12/500x_google-billboard_googlephone.jpg Dec 12 15:06:30 i wish nep was available for n900. atleast on s60 it tells you about 3g network timers Dec 12 15:06:32 ORLY? Dec 12 15:07:09 how would I prevent an auto fallback to wifi? Dec 12 15:07:31 thp, I think it's 100% translated atm Dec 12 15:07:33 :) Dec 12 15:07:48 is that enough to select GPRS from the connections applet? Dec 12 15:08:13 DocScrutinizer, no Dec 12 15:08:41 settings - internet - untick prefer wifi - save Dec 12 15:09:01 aah tnx Dec 12 15:10:10 do you have 2g 2.5g 3g 3.5g reception? Dec 12 15:10:36 * RST38h moos at ShadowJK and TomaszD Dec 12 15:11:01 oh noes Dec 12 15:12:56 I saw cows today. Real cows. A guy called asking for help with this computer saying it's slow. Turns out the computer was the brain of his farmhouse. It controlled cowmilking and cowfeeding robots :-) Dec 12 15:13:09 hmmm 3G now. Should be 3.5 Dec 12 15:13:23 that's normal Dec 12 15:13:53 It upgrades to 3.5g when there's activity. Sometimes. Dec 12 15:14:07 hehe Dec 12 15:14:26 * SpeedEvil fails to find the battery door interlock switch. Dec 12 15:14:30 Anyone got a clue? Dec 12 15:14:38 there isn't one Dec 12 15:14:48 so this obviously isn't enough activity Dec 12 15:14:56 Mine wouldn't start with the battery door off Dec 12 15:15:03 or maybe I'm misremembering Dec 12 15:15:04 Oh, taht Dec 12 15:15:11 I thought that was magnetic? Dec 12 15:15:12 oh no it actually *is* :-D Dec 12 15:16:24 or another one of those weird IR reflecttive Dec 12 15:16:45 could be electric too I suppose :) Dec 12 15:17:29 actually magnetic makes sense. reed under camera Dec 12 15:17:56 Oh yeah, it has to sense the camera door too :) Dec 12 15:18:21 that's a IR reflex sensor Dec 12 15:18:53 watch the hlf white half black stripe on door Dec 12 15:19:15 maybe all this internal magnets are the reason that it doesnt have a internal compass Dec 12 15:19:55 anyone tried if the n900 sticks on a fridge door? :) Dec 12 15:20:14 doesnt Dec 12 15:20:27 :) Dec 12 15:21:01 there,s a small tiny magnet to hod the stand Dec 12 15:21:28 it,s umder the cam. middle of stand bed Dec 12 15:21:33 SpeedEvil: you need to hold the powerbutton a while to start it Dec 12 15:21:37 the keyboard switch is also magnetic Dec 12 15:21:44 SpeedEvil: but the back cover switch indeed is magnetic Dec 12 15:21:45 wow, bookmarks in panucci are broken Dec 12 15:21:49 is it? Dec 12 15:21:50 could use the same magnet as the stand door Dec 12 15:22:00 yes Dec 12 15:22:37 hey tigert \o Dec 12 15:22:53 tigert: thats what I talked about ;-) Dec 12 15:23:12 I think it does Dec 12 15:23:15 All right, new version of FBReader uploaded with the full-screen button in MicroB style Dec 12 15:23:24 I'd do that and save an extra magnet if I'd to design something like this :) Dec 12 15:23:35 * RST38h had to make a few changes to qwerty's patch, to make it more C++, but it was good otherwise =) Dec 12 15:24:34 Anyone has a good slipcover for the n900 ? Dec 12 15:25:09 as soon my device is there i plan to build a hardcase Dec 12 15:25:19 i saw an n900 disassembly video Dec 12 15:25:32 in it, one of hte first things they removed was a plastic plate/block element Dec 12 15:25:36 which didnt appear to have a use Dec 12 15:25:44 iwonder if that space could be reporposed Dec 12 15:25:49 hmm. It seems to partially boot. Dec 12 15:26:08 but I suspect I need more peak current - the impedence of my measurement thingy was probably too high Dec 12 15:26:13 lcuk: well maybe the use of that element wasnt just clear to them Dec 12 15:26:20 of course Dec 12 15:26:25 maybe it just warped alot on the highspeed camera drop test, and they added that widget for extra stability Dec 12 15:26:27 but it looked like a spacer Dec 12 15:26:34 rather than a useful element Dec 12 15:26:37 lcuk: those things could be structural Dec 12 15:26:43 indeed Dec 12 15:26:48 replace the structure with some silicon Dec 12 15:27:14 it might be some stuff that takes impact on fall etc Dec 12 15:27:23 those things are pretty crazy design Dec 12 15:27:31 yeah. Dec 12 15:27:31 yeah Dec 12 15:27:35 And not always obvious. Dec 12 15:27:49 'omg - it breaks -here- when it's dropped 1/10th of the time Dec 12 15:27:51 might be accoustic element Dec 12 15:27:58 'jam some rubber in there, see if it helps Dec 12 15:27:59 or antenna Dec 12 15:28:02 flip device over, take back cover off, left hand side Dec 12 15:28:46 its like car or aircraft design Dec 12 15:28:50 you take out some bit Dec 12 15:29:13 and the structural strength can be very dramatically different Dec 12 15:29:27 tigert: which you don't know until you crash it, and your feet fall off. Dec 12 15:29:42 yeah Dec 12 15:29:51 or the wings fold in the air :P Dec 12 15:30:02 its also equally plausible its just padding Dec 12 15:30:12 given the amount of punishment the nokia phones can take without breaking... Dec 12 15:30:13 without being hw engineers for the platform we dont know Dec 12 15:30:20 lcuk: that too yeah Dec 12 15:30:30 its impossible to say without knowing the details Dec 12 15:30:52 if it did turn out to be a spacer, it could allow the compas module to be internally fitted Dec 12 15:31:04 FSCKING POP3 setup popup Dec 12 15:31:17 They didn't think the F-15 could fly with one wing, then one of them lost a wing, and the pilot had too big an ego to let a missing wing stop him, and landed it instead of bailing out Dec 12 15:31:18 *(&$%ing POP3 Dec 12 15:31:57 that's a really *annoying* part of "i'm your app and I'm so smart" Dec 12 15:32:12 lol Dec 12 15:32:23 I'm waiting for claws.. Dec 12 15:32:26 I hope it comes Dec 12 15:32:27 ShadowJK: actually I think he didnt see the whole amount of damage until when on the ground Dec 12 15:32:35 tigert, yeah that's true Dec 12 15:33:02 probably if he had seen that he only had one wing he wouldn't have believed he could fly ;) Dec 12 15:33:36 and we all know what happens in that case :) Dec 12 15:33:50 ShadowJK: pictures!!!! Dec 12 15:33:55 video! Dec 12 15:34:53 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-_EXtBEaBbs Dec 12 15:38:52 yup. that's about one less wing than they usually have Dec 12 15:40:38 tigert: Of course - the real win militarily comes if you can convince the pilots they don't actually need planes to fly at mach 1. Dec 12 15:40:46 :) Dec 12 15:41:07 SpeedEvil: finns ;) Dec 12 15:41:10 * tigert looks up an url Dec 12 15:41:35 (and yes, I know about the sr71 bailout) Dec 12 15:41:45 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8HMdioj6kng Dec 12 15:41:46 ☃ Dec 12 15:41:47 no Dec 12 15:41:58 this is a finn having small model plane jet engine boots Dec 12 15:42:03 and a wingsuit Dec 12 15:42:09 ;) Dec 12 15:42:13 tigert: I did the numbers for that when I first heard of wingsuits. Dec 12 15:42:19 tigert: it's quite practical Dec 12 15:42:25 yeah Dec 12 15:42:32 jetpacks exist, dude :) Dec 12 15:42:34 tigert: (before it was tried). (for low levels of practical) Dec 12 15:42:42 the guy apparently was the first to try that and could maintain level flight Dec 12 15:42:46 until he ran out of kerosene Dec 12 15:42:46 I have a design for a heli/hoverboard Dec 12 15:43:10 ~60Kg, 80cm*80cm, ~3Km altitude celing, stand-on board. Dec 12 15:43:19 it must be nearly impossible to maintain balance with jetboots.. Dec 12 15:43:29 you're not maintaining balance Dec 12 15:43:42 you're flying with the thrust of the boots augmenting the flight Dec 12 15:43:56 jetpacks use more fuel per second than a 747 Dec 12 15:44:08 specific fuel consumption sucks Dec 12 15:44:11 i liked the water powered jetpack thingy Dec 12 15:44:19 ITWM H2O2 Dec 12 15:44:24 H2O2 isn't really water. Dec 12 15:44:34 lcuk: yeah that looked fun Dec 12 15:44:35 damn that video is incredible Dec 12 15:44:56 Visa is at the local parachute club Dec 12 15:44:58 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0snTqLQLpBA Dec 12 15:45:48 Oh - that's somewhat cheating. Dec 12 15:45:54 h2o2 is a chemichal nonsense :D Dec 12 15:46:02 cal* Dec 12 15:46:05 SpeedEvil: cheating that looks incredibly fun Dec 12 15:46:08 yes Dec 12 15:46:15 SpeedEvil, it gives you something jetpacks dont Dec 12 15:46:20 and has the wow factor Dec 12 15:46:31 lcuk: the ability to fight fires near wateR? Dec 12 15:46:55 the ability to fly for literally hours and always be over safe ground if you lose power ;) Dec 12 15:47:03 yeah - the above hoverboard idea is $60000 or so, and only flys ~5 min or so. Dec 12 15:47:28 i like the idea of ski gliding too Dec 12 15:47:59 Wingsuit + luge is clearly the next big thing Dec 12 15:48:02 thp, portrait mode concept http://imgur.com/zxnOO.jpg Dec 12 15:48:55 TomaszD: good thinking Dec 12 15:49:57 tigert, any thoughts on http://i.imgur.com/Cwd2y.jpg ? Dec 12 15:50:19 guys, that video for sure had more impact while downloading and decoding/displaying, than those 45min of IRC over UMTS Dec 12 15:51:10 TomaszD: controls on top? Dec 12 15:51:52 wazd, nah, it works well with the built-in media player like this, because you have your keyboard open most of the time, so it kind of makes sense Dec 12 15:52:12 TomaszD: I mean in portrait mode Dec 12 15:52:25 wazd, yes, did you read the rationale? Dec 12 15:52:49 or do you honestly use the n900 in portrait mode using two hands? Dec 12 15:53:00 TomaszD: dont have time to look deeply into that, but looks ok at a quick glance Dec 12 15:53:06 TomaszD: I dont have n900 Dec 12 15:53:35 hmm, I think you end up covering part of artist/song/album when pressing previous/next Dec 12 15:54:13 TomaszD: I'd rather make play/pause button and cover art same big rectangle Dec 12 15:54:21 TomaszD: and other stuff on the bottom Dec 12 15:54:36 wazd, would that make any sense usability-wise? Dec 12 15:54:41 or would just look good Dec 12 15:54:59 TomaszD: sure, cause in 90% of cases you need only play/pause button :) Dec 12 15:55:02 johnx, yes I'm thinking about it Dec 12 15:55:41 wazd, I'm sure you can come up with a concept we can look at, right now I can't visualize what you are saying, that's why paper concepts are useful Dec 12 15:56:07 also, be reaching across the whole device from one side to the other, I think you're more likely to hit something accidentally Dec 12 15:56:41 johnx, give me a concept without this issue Dec 12 15:56:54 I don't think it's possible unless you keep all the controls on one side Dec 12 15:56:58 voice activated!!!! Dec 12 15:57:27 "computer, earl grey tea, hot" Dec 12 15:57:27 TomaszD, if you keep the most important buttons on the bottom row you reach more "upwards" with your thumb Dec 12 15:57:31 nurse! :D Dec 12 15:57:49 I don't disagree about keeping the less used controls higher up Dec 12 15:58:13 i wonder whether skinnable media player would be useful Dec 12 15:58:20 to allow people to supply layouts Dec 12 15:58:28 which work for them - like old winamp used to have Dec 12 15:58:30 QML? Dec 12 15:58:53 I'm holding the n900 right now in portrait mode with the old panucci UI and the buttons on the top in the concept are exactly where my thumb naturally sits Dec 12 15:58:53 dunno, but the ui controls can technically be moved around with ease Dec 12 15:59:17 old winamp skins were just pictures. you're thinking new winamp :P Dec 12 15:59:21 i dont use my 900 in portrait mode yet - the biggest limiting factor for me is lack of a dock Dec 12 15:59:40 damn this youtube, now I'm staring at 3dmasters Dec 12 15:59:51 my old pda used to have a neat little dock - i wonder if a replacement backcover could be done to allow it to rest in a dock and be charged Dec 12 15:59:55 like the wiimote replacement battery pack things use Dec 12 16:00:13 droid has a nice dock, but it's landscape Dec 12 16:00:15 hmmm, charge the battery directly? Dec 12 16:00:17 dunno Dec 12 16:01:01 http://wiispot.com/wp-content/uploads/2006/12/joytechcharger.jpg Dec 12 16:01:05 not necessarily johnx Dec 12 16:01:16 but that sort of principle to allow device to just be dropped in dock Dec 12 16:01:22 instead of fiddling with usb Dec 12 16:01:31 is it safe to edit etc/hostname? Dec 12 16:01:38 I think so :) Dec 12 16:01:42 I did it Dec 12 16:01:51 but the microusb plug goes at the top of the device, not the bottom Dec 12 16:01:52 :-) Dec 12 16:01:54 DocScrutinizer51, in the worst case you're offline and you can still fix it Dec 12 16:02:01 TomaszD, hence dock Dec 12 16:02:04 so the dock would have to be really ugly and cumbersome Dec 12 16:02:28 odd Dec 12 16:02:35 lcuk, but that's the way the wiimote charger thing works. I don't know how you'd get around it with the N900 Dec 12 16:02:41 my 'hosts' is 17 bytes of NUL Dec 12 16:02:44 I'll throw the exploded N900 at you kalikiana ;-P Dec 12 16:02:47 err hostname Dec 12 16:02:54 TomaszD, isnt there internal usb pads physically wired to the same point as the external Dec 12 16:03:11 so you could do it all from inside a backcover Dec 12 16:03:18 is there any button or something for the keyboard backlight? it seems to randomly go off sometimes and.. stuff... Dec 12 16:03:27 that'd be some pretty invasive surgery, lcuk Dec 12 16:03:29 /etc/mce.conf Dec 12 16:03:30 SpeedEvil: THAT'S odd indeed Dec 12 16:03:35 or something Dec 12 16:03:40 johnx, not surgery Dec 12 16:03:43 lcuk, go ahead while I still have my n900 in working condition Dec 12 16:03:46 -:>sin Dec 12 16:03:57 im just thinking, i like docks Dec 12 16:04:08 and if more and more is going portrait its something users will start to want Dec 12 16:04:30 its ugly atm to not have a way to keep it rotated Dec 12 16:04:31 SinofEnvy: /etc/mce/mce.conf Dec 12 16:04:35 well, you could dock charging and AV Dec 12 16:04:38 not in portrait mode, it doesn't make sense to cover one of the speakers lcuk Dec 12 16:04:43 DocScrutinizer51, I'll take it, reflash it and sell it for lots of money :-P Dec 12 16:04:46 if anything, it's going to be a landscape dock Dec 12 16:04:51 TomaszD: sure it does - in a proper dock Dec 12 16:04:53 which makes sense to me, and leave transfers over wifi for the most part (also makes sense) Dec 12 16:04:55 same principle then Dec 12 16:05:00 i dock already in landscape Dec 12 16:05:07 but i still dislike the usb Dec 12 16:05:16 SpeedEvil, you mean in something that would also have speakers built-in? Dec 12 16:05:22 TomaszD: yeah Dec 12 16:05:33 I just want mine for charging+AVout Dec 12 16:05:36 this is getting too complicated and too costly :) Dec 12 16:05:47 nice idea johnx Dec 12 16:05:53 it also gets over the covered speaker thing Dec 12 16:05:58 cos you can have proper hifi speakers Dec 12 16:06:08 this is just a single plugin Dec 12 16:06:40 johnx, charging and avout are on different sides of the device, there's a design/engineering task for you guys if you want a dock with those features Dec 12 16:06:49 SpeedEvil: Can't open /etc/mce/mce.conf: No such file or directory Dec 12 16:06:49 :O Dec 12 16:06:52 TomaszD, ah, right :) Dec 12 16:06:57 replacement back cover and touch contacts Dec 12 16:07:02 bummer Dec 12 16:07:03 SinofEnvy: ini Dec 12 16:07:11 craves1 needs to get active :D Dec 12 16:07:38 TomaszD: do you need seekbar? Dec 12 16:07:45 and it would be really really ugly having to put it in and out of the dock cradle Dec 12 16:07:54 bah, minox type cradle Dec 12 16:08:05 SinofEnvy, I use ctrl to turn it back on Dec 12 16:08:11 wazd, seekbar is very useful for audiobooks, but we can get rid of it in portrait mode Dec 12 16:08:13 also, the connectors might not be designed to support much flex/weight Dec 12 16:08:49 ShadowJK. Hmm. Well, I'd think that -any button- would turn it back on after going off because it's "inactive", but it randomly stops even during typing Dec 12 16:08:51 john: the connector for the USB is a bitch to dock. You basically cannoy do it right without a seperate insertion mechanism that puts it in after you slam it in the dock Dec 12 16:09:09 wazd, I wanted to make it as large as possible in portrait mode so it's actually useful, but I'm thinking about it again... I don't think it makes much sense Dec 12 16:09:19 yeah. hard enough to get the charger plugged in Dec 12 16:09:21 well the wiimote has NO default charging capacity so one was make.. Dec 12 16:09:21 made Dec 12 16:09:31 lcuk, which makes it easier Dec 12 16:09:43 the wiimote doesn't think about different charging states, etc Dec 12 16:10:25 of course but i mean the charging points Dec 12 16:10:32 SinofEnvy, my n810 does that :) Dec 12 16:10:38 yeah. that's exactly what I mean Dec 12 16:10:39 if indeed the internal usb pads are electrically connected Dec 12 16:10:40 wazd, it's optional, but it might still be useful for very quick one-handed searching Dec 12 16:10:42 it couldbe used Dec 12 16:10:49 sometimes you can blame it on the light sensor thinking there's enough light... but not always Dec 12 16:10:53 SpeedEvil: what I said. slide crade (like minox camera) that inserts both jacks when you close it, and same time nicely fixates device with some brackets Dec 12 16:11:03 which internal usb pads? actually visible with just the back cover off? Dec 12 16:11:21 I wonder if someones assuming those are USB Dec 12 16:11:38 under the battery actually Dec 12 16:11:38 johnx: there are four groups of contacts under the battery. Dec 12 16:11:45 yeah SpeedEvil i am Dec 12 16:11:47 johnx: in groups of 7,7,2,4 IIRC Dec 12 16:11:48 oh Dec 12 16:12:46 some of them are serial I bet Dec 12 16:13:53 ShadowJK: compare schematics of N810 Dec 12 16:14:47 seems they have D+- of USB on pads. also some other weird stuff Dec 12 16:15:11 ShadowJK: think fab process Dec 12 16:15:36 jtag/power/USB wouldn't be unlikely Dec 12 16:15:36 * johnx gets some breakfast Dec 12 16:15:44 the "funny shit" to run that rf calibration stuff Dec 12 16:15:45 * SpeedEvil gets some dinner. Dec 12 16:15:47 yep Dec 12 16:16:07 JTAG to load first stage bootloader, then USB to flash most firmware Dec 12 16:16:08 would also make sense to provide everything necessary to do a "cold flash" Dec 12 16:16:31 * DocScrutinizer51 gets some kick in the ass by himself to start some shopping etc Dec 12 16:16:54 so that if they have to do a last-minute firmware update before shipping they just take the back off, set it in the testing rig and press go Dec 12 16:17:16 SpeedEvil: I guess 1st stage BL is mask rom. like on wikireader Dec 12 16:17:16 hello maemoites Dec 12 16:17:29 sooo, who wants to be first to try supplying some voltage to those pads and see if the N900 turns on? :D Dec 12 16:18:23 I'd prefer to suggest using a DVM Dec 12 16:18:49 somehow, your way sounds less fun :P Dec 12 16:18:53 DocScrutinizer: of course - it'll be inside the SoC - which is somewhat irrelevant. Dec 12 16:19:00 hehehrrrrrr Dec 12 16:19:09 DocScrutinizer: first 'user' programmable bootloader. Dec 12 16:19:28 hmm. Dec 12 16:19:39 alright, really out of here. have fun :) Dec 12 16:23:15 damn. server closed port Dec 12 16:24:39 orwell.freenode.net freaky? Dec 12 16:25:33 wow Dec 12 16:26:38 ok, who tripped on the ethernet? Dec 12 16:26:44 :) Dec 12 16:26:56 * SpeedEvil ponders a chat protocol without splits. Dec 12 16:27:16 SpeedEvil, its ok, but you need connected servers for load balancing Dec 12 16:27:20 172512 * Your host is farmer.freenode.net Dec 12 16:27:22 and once you are there, splits will occur Dec 12 16:27:28 better than orwell Dec 12 16:27:49 lcuk: you're assuming that there are not multiple connected servers. Dec 12 16:28:07 lcuk: imagine - forex - usenet-like routing. Dec 12 16:28:12 well irc on a single server doesnt have netsplits Dec 12 16:28:30 Splits are fun, they make life exciting Dec 12 16:28:30 lcuk: multiple multiply connected servers rather Dec 12 16:29:00 SpeedEvil, throwing more iron at the problem will nto solve it, it will just make splits more frustrating Dec 12 16:29:03 actually I seen other orwells quiting minutes before I got kicked with "host closed port" Dec 12 16:29:13 so no real split Dec 12 16:29:33 lcuk: not throwing more iron. Dec 12 16:29:54 lcuk: altering the protocol so it's 'flood fill' - not point-point. Dec 12 16:30:18 this was *no* split Dec 12 16:30:34 it's been a flaw *inside* orwell Dec 12 16:30:46 Where split is a generic term for a server oops. Dec 12 16:30:59 k then Dec 12 16:31:18 still any other floodfill prot won't help Dec 12 16:31:21 speedevil it will still occur if 100 people are connected to one point and that goes off Dec 12 16:31:26 lcuk2: sure. Dec 12 16:31:27 it wont actually help much Dec 12 16:31:48 lcuk2: Assuming the mutliple connection isn't extended out to the leaf nodes/users. Dec 12 16:31:56 eeeek Dec 12 16:32:03 adding complexity Dec 12 16:32:15 And yes, you always trade complexity for ohter stuff. Dec 12 16:32:32 it would simply be better to hide your join/leaves and buffer messages until the person joins ;) Dec 12 16:32:34 I got redundant connection here ;-P Dec 12 16:32:47 you may copy for your RFC Dec 12 16:33:31 anyway beer time Dec 12 16:33:41 and even with good ole IRC prot Dec 12 16:34:12 time for some RL action Dec 12 16:34:34 wave Dec 12 16:35:06 btw: 90min... 71% Dec 12 16:35:49 decay rate ~1.5% / 5min Dec 12 16:36:39 with allways-on backlight at low brightness Dec 12 16:37:01 and IRC over 3G ;-D Dec 12 16:37:21 I'd say that's decent Dec 12 16:37:31 I was getting _much_ worse performance than that. Dec 12 16:37:59 omg Dec 12 16:38:03 As in ~50%/4 hours, with backlight off, and xchat on. And it wasn't that xchat was taking lots of CPU Dec 12 16:38:06 I just saw WoW ad on TV Dec 12 16:38:10 and net over 3g Dec 12 16:38:23 I've been getting good battery life on Wifi Dec 12 16:38:32 Great over wifi. Dec 12 16:38:40 ~80%/245h Dec 12 16:38:42 24h Dec 12 16:38:48 Which is kinda handy, because 90% of the time I'm in range of a wifi connection Dec 12 16:38:52 anybody here is fluent with gdb in c++ ? I do not find how to set a break point for a c++ method (classname::methodname is not recognized) Dec 12 16:38:53 wazd: theyve been doing WoW ad's on telly here in .se for ages :) Dec 12 16:38:53 wazd, and you want a WoW client on maemo ? :) Dec 12 16:39:17 frals: I saw the one with Mr. T Dec 12 16:39:20 hh 24 Dec 12 16:39:29 not 245 Dec 12 16:39:36 yabo: never played it actually :D Dec 12 16:39:38 XD Dec 12 16:39:54 hehe, last year they had one with ozzy osbourne :) Dec 12 16:40:04 SpeedEvil: many inbound packet spamming? Dec 12 16:40:23 wazd, :) Dec 12 16:40:33 DocScrutinizer: no inbound packets I saw over the period I checked other than as expected from IRC Dec 12 16:40:48 DocScrutinizer: and yes, I need to properly check that. Dec 12 16:41:06 SpeedEvil: how'd you tell? Dec 12 16:41:15 DocScrutinizer: tcpdump Dec 12 16:41:20 firewall log on N900? Dec 12 16:41:26 aah Dec 12 16:42:18 * DocScrutinizer51 ponders about NAK sending Dec 12 16:42:18 can I put my N900 in "flash torch" mode through any stock app? I went through all the camera and flash settings and all but can't find anything :/ Dec 12 16:42:31 wow Dec 12 16:43:00 SinofEnvy: nope Dec 12 16:43:45 SinofEnvy: not yet. seems SpeedEvil is working on a PoV app Dec 12 16:44:40 voice quality using my parrot car hands-free seems to be much better with the n900 than with the e51 and the iphone - can anyone think of a reason? Built in noise reduction? Dec 12 16:44:43 ? Dec 12 16:45:02 PoV? Dec 12 16:45:09 killefiz: is this bluetooth? Dec 12 16:45:13 SpeedEvil: yes Dec 12 16:45:20 SinofEnvy: no Dec 12 16:45:33 killefiz: bluetooth audio has eleven million different options. Dec 12 16:45:37 I meant it as in, "what do you mean PoV" Dec 12 16:45:37 but okay Dec 12 16:45:50 but okay thanks, so right now the torch mode is hardware supported but no app does anything with it? Dec 12 16:45:53 better quality SBC Dec 12 16:45:55 TomaszD: http://i013.radikal.ru/0912/80/2d35c782d995.png Dec 12 16:45:58 killefiz: it's possible that the n900 supports - or has as default - a better codec Dec 12 16:46:05 SinofEnvy: yes Dec 12 16:46:16 TomaszD: You can even add some more functions if you'd like to Dec 12 16:47:59 wazd, looks good, not very intuitive though, is it Dec 12 16:48:42 SpeedEvil: that would be an explanation - whatever it is - I like it ;) Dec 12 16:48:53 I like those big buttons, although I'm not sure about their function, this being an audiobook player Dec 12 16:49:03 you don't often switch between tracks I guess Dec 12 16:49:06 I don't know really Dec 12 16:50:28 I'd want a nice way to bookmark your current place very obviously Dec 12 16:50:50 yeah, and my concept has that scenario covered Dec 12 16:50:52 and I'd lose the track next/track last in favour of a drag gesture Dec 12 16:51:11 as in drag 'back' like the browser Dec 12 16:51:25 also volume via spirals Dec 12 16:52:04 also, a pony Dec 12 16:52:06 :) Dec 12 16:52:58 what is the default lock code on the n900? I tried 0000 and 1234 but neither works. Dec 12 16:53:10 12345? Dec 12 16:53:26 TomaszD: that works - thanks Dec 12 16:53:32 how is one supposed to know that? Dec 12 16:53:33 :) Dec 12 16:53:47 theres a lock code? Dec 12 16:53:48 the manual should have it somewhere Dec 12 16:53:56 TomaszD: http://s44.radikal.ru/i105/0912/79/372c7a3bcfd1.png Dec 12 16:54:27 TomaszD: I just skimmed through the manual (the german one that was in the box) and it doesn't mention anything related to the lock code. Dec 12 16:54:56 hmm Dec 12 16:54:59 lcuk2: if you push the power button while the device is powered on there is a menu option "secure device" Dec 12 16:55:27 that would be why ive never needed a lock code Dec 12 16:55:50 it asks for a code to lock the device tho Dec 12 16:55:52 no default? Dec 12 16:56:03 if i tap outside the dialog it goes away Dec 12 16:56:06 ie still unlocked Dec 12 16:56:18 until i enter something Dec 12 16:56:23 lcuk2: the default lock code is 12345 as I have just learned Dec 12 16:56:24 to tell it what to lock Dec 12 16:56:36 yeah - I found no obvious way of setting the lock code Dec 12 16:56:38 which is bad Dec 12 16:56:42 i cannot lock it without entering my own code tho Dec 12 16:56:48 SpeedEvil: you can set it under settings Dec 12 16:57:08 settings -> Device Lock Dec 12 16:57:22 wazd, any rationale behind this specific design (as a whole and in details)? Dec 12 16:57:23 killefiz: 'enter current lock code' Dec 12 16:57:33 SpeedEvil: 12345 Dec 12 16:57:43 killefiz: and where is that documented? Dec 12 16:57:54 SpeedEvil: #maemo in freenode ;) Dec 12 16:57:58 I must have found that somewhere Dec 12 16:58:10 how would I know otherwise Dec 12 16:58:15 I don't think I was guessing Dec 12 16:58:21 maybe the n810 had the same code Dec 12 16:58:33 googling for n900 and lock code also works - according to a thread on talk.maemo.org 12345 is nokia default Dec 12 16:58:41 :) Dec 12 16:58:54 * lcuk2 still cannot use lock without first entering my own ode Dec 12 16:58:55 argh - it wants a 5 digit code Dec 12 16:59:05 code Dec 12 16:59:30 moo Dec 12 16:59:36 moo Dec 12 16:59:37 hey rst Dec 12 16:59:47 how are things? Dec 12 16:59:48 RST38h: reheya Dec 12 17:00:00 damn why the hell I must have a r8167 with firmware needed Dec 12 17:00:17 hi wazd and lcuk Dec 12 17:00:26 TomaszD: well, it's handy :) Dec 12 17:00:26 hiya woglinde Dec 12 17:00:32 woglinde: hey Dec 12 17:01:14 that garage job is taking its time... Dec 12 17:01:20 uh Dec 12 17:01:30 garage istn up already? Dec 12 17:01:35 wazd: are you one of the panucci developers? Dec 12 17:01:49 killefiz: no Dec 12 17:01:51 still just shows a single line of text to me Dec 12 17:03:25 * SpeedEvil adds https://bugs.maemo.org/post_bug.cgi Dec 12 17:03:28 err Dec 12 17:03:38 https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=6891 Dec 12 17:03:40 Bug 6891: Device lock setup gives no way to set a lock code for the first time. Dec 12 17:04:53 can someone do me a very fast favor? If your N900 does NOT have ssh installed, give me the first line of /etc/passwd Dec 12 17:05:07 I have ssh, else I would Dec 12 17:05:17 nezb?????? Dec 12 17:05:25 firstline is root Dec 12 17:05:29 yes, woglinde? Dec 12 17:05:40 did you delete the entry? Dec 12 17:05:44 there should be root: something :0:0:root/root:/bin/sh Dec 12 17:05:50 I need the something part Dec 12 17:06:03 hm? Dec 12 17:06:09 when you install ssh it changes the password on the root account Dec 12 17:06:10 take the one from your host Dec 12 17:06:25 nezb whats the problem? Dec 12 17:06:33 sudo gainroot dont works anymore? Dec 12 17:06:36 ...I need to disable the root acount Dec 12 17:06:59 yeah look at your hostsystem Dec 12 17:07:07 root:x:0:0:root:/root:/bin/bash Dec 12 17:07:09 my host system has a root account with password Dec 12 17:07:14 thanks.. I needed the "x" Dec 12 17:07:16 whahaaaaa Dec 12 17:07:24 roots password should be in shadow Dec 12 17:07:29 not in passwd Dec 12 17:07:36 N900 doesn't use shadow Dec 12 17:07:37 I consider your system not safe Dec 12 17:07:45 your HOST Dec 12 17:07:46 my host is running Debian :P Dec 12 17:07:52 /etc/shadow- of course Dec 12 17:08:05 guess what I pasted Dec 12 17:08:11 or from Dec 12 17:08:14 >_> Dec 12 17:08:35 your host system..? Dec 12 17:08:40 wow Dec 12 17:08:43 you are smart Dec 12 17:08:45 *g* Dec 12 17:09:19 I don't have a machine around that I could have got that from Dec 12 17:09:28 aeh? Dec 12 17:10:42 is it okay to change the password on the user account? Dec 12 17:11:15 sure Dec 12 17:11:18 its your device Dec 12 17:11:51 I tried to login to my N900's user account via ssh publickey, it does not work. Any idea? Dec 12 17:11:53 well, I was worried some applications that expect it not to have a password might stop working Dec 12 17:11:59 login to root using password works Dec 12 17:12:05 johnq: that's my problem. you have to set a password to the user account Dec 12 17:12:12 johnq hm configure sshd_config? Dec 12 17:12:20 maybee only root user is allowed Dec 12 17:12:26 johnq: from root login, type passwd user Dec 12 17:12:45 ssh won't do public key for an accoun with no password for some reason Dec 12 17:12:52 nezb: ah, thanks Dec 12 17:13:00 johnq: you're welcome Dec 12 17:13:30 ouch... phone crashed during a phone call and now it doesn't boot. Dec 12 17:13:40 I would like to increase the security of my device, but I'm not really sure what is the way to go. Dec 12 17:13:54 johnq: I changed the port ssh runs on Dec 12 17:14:15 johnq: disabled root login for ssh, and also forced public key auth (no password auth) Dec 12 17:14:27 Scummer: at all? Dec 12 17:14:27 nezb: yeah, that's what I thought of Dec 12 17:14:42 nezb: but how to you get root access on your device? Dec 12 17:14:56 nezb: well.. it does show the Nokia splash, one round of the balls and then it turns off Dec 12 17:14:58 johnq: I think that's all you can do. the phone has no open ports except for ssh (when it is running, usually I leave it off to save battery) Dec 12 17:15:11 johnq: sudo gainroot Dec 12 17:15:26 nezb: hm, do you need to type in the root password for that? Dec 12 17:15:28 Scummer: that's not good :\ filesystem corruption maybe? Dec 12 17:16:00 johnq: nope. you can do it from the user account Dec 12 17:16:01 nezb: i wonder... Dec 12 17:16:30 Scummer: I know on the N800 you could be able to enter recovery mode and reflash Dec 12 17:17:26 nezb: the n900 should have it too Dec 12 17:17:27 http://wiki.maemo.org/Root_access Dec 12 17:17:28 nezb: but then it seems quite insecure to me Dec 12 17:17:43 johnq: read the link I pasted Dec 12 17:18:11 ok. 30 minutes with backlight off and idle. just gprs with IRC: 0..1%of bat drain Dec 12 17:18:24 Scummer: it does, you need windows to run flasher-3.5.txt Dec 12 17:18:26 *exe Dec 12 17:18:58 nezb: i'm using the os x flasher Dec 12 17:19:00 Scummer: if you don't want to try to figure out what really happened, you can just do this: http://wiki.maemo.org/Updating_the_firmware#N900_.28XP_SP3.29.2FVista_.28SP2.29.2FWindows_7 Dec 12 17:19:03 so i'm going to try it Dec 12 17:19:13 Scummer: the OSX flasher kernel panicks on 10.6 Dec 12 17:19:17 btw Dec 12 17:19:29 nezb: I think it's insecure nevertheless. Have I missed something? Dec 12 17:19:29 shit Dec 12 17:19:47 Scummer: 770Flasher does, at least, not sure about the command line version Dec 12 17:19:53 nezb: i have 10.6 :( Dec 12 17:20:02 same. I experienced it firsthand a few days ago Dec 12 17:20:05 nezb: anybody who gets user access to my device instantly gets root access Dec 12 17:20:17 johnq: isn't that true for any device? Dec 12 17:20:17 during the flash ? Dec 12 17:20:32 Scummer: right at the end of it. it does something to the USB module in the Darwin kernel Dec 12 17:20:32 nezb: of course not? Dec 12 17:20:41 johnq: unless you disallow reflashing, that's always the case surely? Dec 12 17:20:42 johnq: it's just a phone though Dec 12 17:20:56 nezb: i'm not talking about physical access but network access Dec 12 17:20:57 SpeedEvil: btw all above from hald readout which is amazingly NONsteppy this time Dec 12 17:21:07 DocScrutinizer: odd Dec 12 17:21:10 DocScrutinizer: Dec 12 17:21:10 nezb: or think of viruses Dec 12 17:21:17 DocScrutinizer: I got lots of steps. Dec 12 17:21:23 johnq: network access means they need a private key to login Dec 12 17:21:40 nezb: why do you disallow root ssh access if it's the same as user access in the end? Dec 12 17:21:40 sudo rainroot only works if you are already logged into the device Dec 12 17:21:43 better lots than a few shuge ones Dec 12 17:21:43 DocScrutinizer: maybe it gets better over cycles Dec 12 17:21:57 because bots will try to login as root usually. Dec 12 17:22:06 no idea, honestly Dec 12 17:22:36 rainroot is cool Dec 12 17:22:58 nezb: ok, I'll think about it Dec 12 17:23:10 nezb: thanks for your help Dec 12 17:23:20 johnq: you're welcome Dec 12 17:26:40 root is definitely the account to be bruteforced, then comes list of some common firstnames (according to my ssh-fail-logs) Dec 12 17:28:49 nezb : hmm.. the phone restarted with hooking up the USB Dec 12 17:29:22 weird Dec 12 17:29:29 SpeedEvil: last 5 readings: 66 (5min) 66 (5min) 66 (5min, bl on) 61 (5min) 60 Dec 12 17:29:51 uahh... the battery was simply empty Dec 12 17:30:09 zemm, though a root password shouldn't be bruteforceable Dec 12 17:30:35 how to reach nokia messaging tech support? Dec 12 17:35:27 what is a preferred way of storing username/password info on maemo for gtk apps ? Dec 12 17:36:07 thomastp should be same as in other gtk-apps too Dec 12 17:36:29 woglinde: well, a lot use gnome-keyring, that's definitely not on maemo atm Dec 12 17:36:35 and I'd prefer to avoid packaging that for my needs Dec 12 17:37:29 gnome-keyring is a gnome app Dec 12 17:38:05 yes, so does maemo offer anything similar to gnome-keyring ? Dec 12 17:38:20 hey Dec 12 17:38:31 where can i find the data folder? Dec 12 17:38:48 in the home directory, it is hidden (filename start with a dot) Dec 12 17:38:49 /home/user/MyDocs? Dec 12 17:38:49 thomastp hm I dont know Dec 12 17:38:57 you can find it doing ls -a ~ Dec 12 17:38:57 the n900 fscking sucks as a phone Dec 12 17:38:59 what would be the correct term for the menu which drops down when one clicks the title bar of an aplication? Dec 12 17:39:10 A call comes in, and it just goes "OHSHITOHSHITOHSHIT A CALL OMG CRASHCRASHFREEZEFREEZE" Dec 12 17:39:19 JosefAssad: Either AppMenu or GtkMenu Dec 12 17:39:31 JosefAssad: Depending on whether it's finger friendly or not Dec 12 17:39:41 Jaffa: okie. Ah, great Dec 12 17:39:59 so i have to create, when there is no data folder? Dec 12 17:40:08 gadget : mine never did that Dec 12 17:40:23 Jaffa: there's one such in theremin, and it's finger friendly but clearly not the same as the builtins, so probably not hildonised was why I'm asking Dec 12 17:40:31 Jaffa: appmenu it is then Dec 12 17:40:36 Jaffa: thanks Dec 12 17:40:39 /home/user/MyDocs/.documents Dec 12 17:40:48 supper Dec 12 17:41:03 Gadgetoid, never seen such behavior Dec 12 17:41:17 JosefAssad: The builtins are all AppMenus, FWIW Dec 12 17:41:21 I get a SMS, with a number in, that I want to SMS to. I click the number, and it takes me to the phone app, with no visible way to SMS. Dec 12 17:41:25 Am I missing somethign/ Dec 12 17:41:46 when you are on the sms screen dont oyu just start typing to reply Dec 12 17:41:54 lcuk2: how to install liquidflow :\ Dec 12 17:41:55 tell me Dec 12 17:42:05 I don't want to reply to the SMS, I want to SMS to a number in the SMS. Dec 12 17:42:13 tap and hold the number? Dec 12 17:42:20 goto extras-testing, find liqflow, install ? Dec 12 17:42:33 nezb: ah - that works, thanks! Dec 12 17:42:38 thp, you added strings 2 hours before the release? Dec 12 17:42:43 Jaffa: hm. OK, I just don't want to conuse people with the terms I use. The menu I'm looking at is finger friendly and drops down and all, but the width is the width of the labels not buttons fitting to the screen width. Still "app menu"? Dec 12 17:42:44 add extras-testing to repo on n900? Dec 12 17:42:49 SpeedEvil: you're welcome. there's lots of hidden context menus like that in maemo Dec 12 17:43:00 Ceron^ in app manager open the drop down menu on the top Dec 12 17:43:16 nezb: actually - it seems not to Dec 12 17:43:17 Ceron^ go to sources and uncheck disabled from extras Dec 12 17:43:26 SpeedEvil ? Dec 12 17:43:30 if you would like to test it yes. http://maemo.org/packages/package_instance/view/fremantle_extras-testing_free_armel/liqflow/0.1.1/ Dec 12 17:43:30 i got it enabled :P Dec 12 17:43:42 once you have tested it, please complete the survey (tick yes or no) :D Dec 12 17:43:45 oh its liqflow :D Dec 12 17:43:57 is there a "best practice" to sync the n900 with evolution under linux? Dec 12 17:43:59 what is liqflow anyway Dec 12 17:44:15 nezb: ah - I suspect it's slightly confused. I get an sms from 48004 - I want to SMS to 48004 - I diddn't realise that was the actual number I wanted to SMS - so it takes me back to the same 'conversation'. Dec 12 17:44:31 i dont got Dec 12 17:44:35 Extras-testing in my repo Dec 12 17:44:38 only got Extras :( Dec 12 17:44:43 manually add it? Dec 12 17:44:46 i will! Dec 12 17:45:08 SpeedEvil, can't you just reply then? Dec 12 17:45:09 Ceron^, note apps listed for testing are not complete and may conflict Dec 12 17:45:21 beware and remove/disable it again after you have what you need Dec 12 17:45:27 lcuk2: should i delete all liqbase Dec 12 17:45:29 playground stuff Dec 12 17:45:32 lcuk2 - can't you just pin it to a lower priority? Dec 12 17:45:35 before installing liqflow? Dec 12 17:45:35 nezb: yes, I can, it was confusing me that I hadn't realised that the number it came from was the same one it was asking me to SMS Dec 12 17:45:38 nahh they dont conflict Dec 12 17:45:41 just upgrades it all Dec 12 17:45:44 SpeedEvil oh gotcha Dec 12 17:45:53 nezb, probably Dec 12 17:45:59 but its not the default mechanism Dec 12 17:46:31 * lcuk2 needs to push new updates for libliqbase this week too Dec 12 17:46:33 lcuk2, yeah. I get the feeling lots of people are going to mess stuff up :P Dec 12 17:46:46 wild wild west Dec 12 17:46:59 -testing is there for testing specific apps Dec 12 17:47:27 and for giving the developers the feedback they need Dec 12 17:47:36 without feedback improvements cannot be made Dec 12 17:47:48 lcuk2: just saw your video of liqflow on youtube. that's pretty cool! Dec 12 17:47:52 * SpeedEvil turns n900 up to 11, and places mic next to speaker. Dec 12 17:48:02 indeed nezb :) Dec 12 17:48:57 SpeedEvil, try this in the console Dec 12 17:48:58 gst-launch pulsesrc ! pulsesink Dec 12 17:49:10 :) Dec 12 17:49:16 what does that do? :P Dec 12 17:51:08 installing liqflow! Dec 12 17:51:28 JosefAssad: http://wiki.maemo.org/Using_Fremantle_Widgets#Window_Menu Dec 12 17:53:54 is it bad if /etc/passwd and /etc/passwd- are out of sync? I'm guessing yes... Dec 12 17:55:56 nezb: why would it be bad? Dec 12 17:56:20 isn't passwd- a backup of passwd? Dec 12 17:56:26 Jaffa: thank you again Dec 12 17:56:33 How do I install cython in the SDK to compile .py programs to arm binaries? There is a package named cython (or python2.5-cython) in extras-devel, but what is the correct line to add to /etc/apt/sources.list in the scratchbox? Dec 12 17:57:07 Does it make sense to have "is it properly hildonised" in the Extras-testing QA checklist? Dec 12 17:58:44 never mind me, it's encouraged but not a blocker. I RTFA'ed Dec 12 17:59:10 reading, wow Dec 12 18:02:09 ah man Dec 12 18:02:21 i must say that sync'ing contacts between the n900 and OS X right now is a lot of painful work Dec 12 18:02:30 hope nokia does a good job with their iSync plugin Dec 12 18:02:44 iSuck Dec 12 18:02:45 you can sync with OSX!? Dec 12 18:02:50 how? Dec 12 18:03:02 Vratha salling media:) Dec 12 18:03:04 using an Exchange Server + Entourage? :) Dec 12 18:03:04 nezb: contacts -> gmail -> n900 Dec 12 18:03:06 its free Dec 12 18:03:13 crashanddie_mbp: you may, yes, but i don't want to get to know you well enough to figure that out Dec 12 18:03:14 or Dec 12 18:03:14 Vratha: try nuevasync.com ? Dec 12 18:03:25 with addressbook Dec 12 18:03:27 export Dec 12 18:03:33 crashanddie_mbp, oh, that's what I do right now. I thought you meant over USB Dec 12 18:03:34 and then send via bt to n900 Dec 12 18:03:45 hcarrega: yeah, i did. it's a lot of painful work Dec 12 18:03:52 lol Dec 12 18:03:57 but for now Dec 12 18:03:58 you can just export entire address book as a vcf and import it on device Dec 12 18:03:58 :) Dec 12 18:03:59 especially when you have to add the country prefix for everything so you can do skype calling Dec 12 18:04:08 this is just something basic nokia should've had working in the first place Dec 12 18:04:23 Vratha: um, what?! Dec 12 18:04:23 I don't think some people realise it's not about syncing once -- but more about staying in sync Dec 12 18:04:29 80% of the market does not have a Mac Dec 12 18:04:41 to think that we shouldn't ship a product because we're missing support for that platform is absolutely nuts Dec 12 18:04:50 that country code thing works nowhere Dec 12 18:04:53 well how do you sync it to Linux in that case... since I have a Linux and Mac OS X box Dec 12 18:05:01 timeless_mbp: so, last i checked, the rest of the market supports mac sync'ing out of the box. pretty sad nokia doesn't, right? Dec 12 18:05:01 and i'm speaking as a Nokian whose employer purchased a mac book pro Dec 12 18:05:28 Vratha: last i checked Palm was busy losing a lawsuit in that area Dec 12 18:05:29 maybe in future Dec 12 18:05:37 all things considered, i'd rather my employer not spend its money losing lawsuits Dec 12 18:05:38 try gmail Dec 12 18:05:40 sync Dec 12 18:05:44 timeless_mbp: wow, your straw man argument holds no water Dec 12 18:05:45 crashanddie_mbp: nuevasync.com probably works ok for that Dec 12 18:05:56 Vratha: go away. Dec 12 18:05:57 crashanddie_mbp: but i dont want to adverstise something i dont even really know... Dec 12 18:06:01 Vratha: neither does yours Dec 12 18:06:02 i don't give gmail my contact info Dec 12 18:06:27 SpeedEvil: yeah, because saying that most of the market place is beating nokia in the area of sync'ing is really a straw man... Dec 12 18:06:27 timeless_mbp: why offend "customers" Dec 12 18:06:31 it's a statement of fact Dec 12 18:06:41 valdyn: i'm not paid to take offense from customers Dec 12 18:06:47 if they want to complain, they should call nokia care Dec 12 18:06:54 nokia care is *paid* to take complaints Dec 12 18:06:55 timeless_mbp: oh, i didnt see you being offended Dec 12 18:07:08 this is #maemo, where we work as a *community* to improve the maemo platform Dec 12 18:07:13 we don't go around bashing companies Dec 12 18:07:17 not apple, not microsoft, and not nokia Dec 12 18:07:23 (nor palm for that matter) Dec 12 18:07:24 mmmm, actually, maemo is backed by nokia Dec 12 18:07:27 they released the n900 Dec 12 18:07:29 timeless_mbp: sure, agreed Dec 12 18:07:31 lol at flamewar... Dec 12 18:07:38 the community doesn't have to do anything really Dec 12 18:07:54 nick ljp Dec 12 18:08:05 * timeless_mbp passes lpotter a slash (/) :) Dec 12 18:08:06 what do you say we make apple juice and fax it to each other Dec 12 18:08:07 or maybe, "this is not a nokia care channel" should be on the /topic ;) Dec 12 18:08:46 bloody Dec 12 18:09:08 fanbois screaming "I want steve jobs to get cancer" simply because there's a legal battle between nokia and appl Dec 12 18:09:10 +e Dec 12 18:09:15 fine, let's talk about something non-nokia related then. how about them contact books in maemo? imported my contacts via a large vcard, and rather than merging with existing contacts, i had to do that manually Dec 12 18:09:16 If anyone here is like me, we all bought this phone knowing that it is an open platform that we can expand or modify to fit our needs. There is no need to argue... Dec 12 18:09:25 then, it decided to duplicate tons of info Dec 12 18:09:30 then, the contacts app locked up Dec 12 18:09:36 Vratha: theres no merge feature afaik. Dec 12 18:09:45 Vratha: you had a lot of contacts in one vcf file? Dec 12 18:09:58 lbt: he was trying to import all of his contacts Dec 12 18:10:07 * lbt too Dec 12 18:10:12 N900 Dec 12 18:10:16 + 3110i Dec 12 18:10:18 in the contacts app, if you have a lot of contacts of the same name, you can manually merge the info, but it duplicates distinct data Dec 12 18:10:20 doesn't mix :( Dec 12 18:10:36 lbt: yes, i did, from the mac address book Dec 12 18:10:39 so I used gnokki or gnokii to get an ldif... Dec 12 18:10:55 I just didn't realise vcf would hold multiple entries Dec 12 18:11:22 is there an ETA for garage coming back to life? Dec 12 18:11:25 lbt: me either, until i learned how to sync from mac to n900 Dec 12 18:11:28 the pain for me is that I have 100+ vcf files .... and although N900 will export multiple contacts to multiple vcf Dec 12 18:11:37 it imports 1 by 1 Dec 12 18:11:41 fwiw, Mac sync support for sony ericson phones seems to come from a third party: http://www.feisar.com/plugins.php Dec 12 18:11:55 lbt: yeah, so on your mac, if you export all your contacts into one file, you can import just that one file on your n900 to get all them in Dec 12 18:11:58 * lbt is a linux guy.... Mac is way too closed Dec 12 18:12:06 :) Dec 12 18:12:08 lbt: ah, i thought you were saying you had a mac Dec 12 18:12:16 Vratha: please read carefully Dec 12 18:12:17 but, that was kind of a trolling opinion Dec 12 18:12:24 no, but I have the multiple contaxt import problem Dec 12 18:12:26 it'll help you avoid annoying people Dec 12 18:12:37 timeless_mbp: he didn't say he didn't have a mac Dec 12 18:12:47 oh, so that means he must have one! Dec 12 18:12:56 it doesn't mean he doesn't have one Dec 12 18:12:59 your logic is impeccable Dec 12 18:13:06 timeless_mbp: actually, you're kind of annoying me Dec 12 18:13:29 heh, anyways.... off to actually do something +ve Dec 12 18:13:48 cheers for the multiple contacts/vcf tip.... will look at that Dec 12 18:13:50 duh Dec 12 18:14:18 DocScrutinizer-8: does your nick mean you look at Docs? Dec 12 18:14:27 lbt: yes Dec 12 18:14:37 lbt: yeah, we support multiple vcards Dec 12 18:14:41 that's been the iriginal meaning Dec 12 18:14:46 fwiw, don't try sticking >50 fields into a single card Dec 12 18:14:48 you involved in the docs team? Dec 12 18:14:51 the contacts app will get annoyed Dec 12 18:14:56 timeless_mbp: *nod* ... ta Dec 12 18:15:06 DocScrutinizer: whose docs do you poke? Dec 12 18:15:15 lbt: you jumped to a conclusion back there ^ :) Dec 12 18:15:21 once been openmoko docs Dec 12 18:15:31 timeless_mbp: did I? sorry... what? Dec 12 18:15:47 lbt: the domain of DocScrutinizer 's scrutiny :) Dec 12 18:16:09 heh - jumping would have been inviting w/o asking.... :) Dec 12 18:16:39 Of course he could have a medical fetish... Dec 12 18:16:55 anyway, the people i've talked to who have done a single vcard have used some perl or whatever to clean up their file before importing Dec 12 18:17:05 DocScrutinizer-8: http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=422871 Dec 12 18:17:25 just in case it appeals :) Dec 12 18:17:42 hmm... i didn't have trouble importing the vcard that supposedly holds all finnish telemarketers numbers... Dec 12 18:17:58 suihkulokki: 50 is per card, not cards per file Dec 12 18:18:08 before importing your vcard, use perl to fix it up so it has the country code in front of all the numbers, if you care about making skype calls Dec 12 18:18:18 it is one big vcard Dec 12 18:18:42 suihkulokki: it's one big vcard container Dec 12 18:18:50 I guess I have no time to talk to people at the moment.... so it's low on the list ;) Dec 12 18:19:14 lbt: actually, avoid 44, not 50 Dec 12 18:19:15 sorry Dec 12 18:19:28 anyone have some time to kill? :) Dec 12 18:19:46 * lbt declines this time :) Dec 12 18:19:54 timeless: maybe Dec 12 18:20:02 time is irrevelant Dec 12 18:20:25 You should take the time for a good kill Dec 12 18:22:52 Why, timeless_mbp? Dec 12 18:23:38 ifreq: that comment seems ironic coming from you, considering your handle Dec 12 18:24:45 *g* Dec 12 18:25:49 wow, transferring a 58MB video file from N900 to my computer over Bluetooth is _slow_ Dec 12 18:26:05 bluetooth _is_ slow Dec 12 18:26:14 150kB/s! BLAZING FAST! Dec 12 18:26:44 that's actually really good for Bluetooth Dec 12 18:26:56 that's 1mbps. how much did you expect? Dec 12 18:26:58 yeah... In the past I remember to be happy getting 20kB/s Dec 12 18:27:04 no it's 0.1mbps Dec 12 18:27:23 you said kilobytes Dec 12 18:27:25 err 1megabit, 0.1mBps Dec 12 18:27:27 my bad Dec 12 18:27:38 i said megabit Dec 12 18:27:43 lbt: I see. Well I'm not quite much into development yet. But at least I can tell for me the most important part is to understand all the middleware and API stuff. E:G I have no idea what to enter into xchat cfg to make the vibrator bounce in a highlight even Dec 12 18:27:45 yeah I misread you =) Dec 12 18:27:46 t Dec 12 18:29:38 so, just 8 mins Dec 12 18:29:56 yep. just finished. Dec 12 18:30:18 hmm.. screencast file is unplayable.. Dec 12 18:30:53 you know, ppl used 14kilobites per second modems not so long time ago :) Dec 12 18:31:16 yeah, but we didn't push 800x480 video though them either Dec 12 18:31:53 err 14kb modems? sounds like plain CSD Dec 12 18:32:05 14kbit? ... hey that was fast! .. somewhere i have a 300baud modem Dec 12 18:32:08 OVER gSM Dec 12 18:32:28 300baud modem on an Apple //e Dec 12 18:32:36 dual floppy drives! Dec 12 18:32:50 err, kilobits Dec 12 18:33:18 actually I never seen a 300 modem. We called those acousitc couplers Dec 12 18:33:35 my first one connected @9600 :) Dec 12 18:33:56 modems with a wire to plug to pots started at 1200 iirc Dec 12 18:33:57 maybe its 1.2k .. Dec 12 18:34:04 the first modem I ever used was a 28.8... Dec 12 18:34:04 can be Dec 12 18:34:11 I have a 300/1200 baud modem. Dec 12 18:34:23 they can all fallback to 300 baud Dec 12 18:34:25 I can actually see the box for it from where I'm sitting. Dec 12 18:34:42 iirc the handshake is always made at 300 baud for compatibility reasons Dec 12 18:35:05 long ago :) Dec 12 18:35:09 cehteh: Yes, but I enjoy the fact that it's _marketed_ as "300/1200 baud". Dec 12 18:35:12 check out this video of a 300baud coupler from 1964 being used on a modern computer Dec 12 18:35:15 http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&oi=video_result&ct=res&cd=8&ved=0CB8QtwIwBw&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DX9dpXHnJXaE&rct=j&q=300+baud+modem&ei=QeIjS7qdDM-vtgeJ9rzZBw&usg=AFQjCNGdz1e6qUpnzXFz6u3NFti14HVZVQ&sig2=yQ4DYl8ws9xSq-Zx9JgEdA Dec 12 18:35:20 http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&oi=video_result&ct=res&cd=8&ved=0CB8QtwIwBw&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DX9dpXHnJXaE&rct=j&q=300+baud+modem&ei=QeIjS7qdDM-vtgeJ9rzZBw&usg=AFQjCNGdz1e6qUpnzXFz6u3NFti14HVZVQ&sig2=yQ4DYl8ws9xSq-Zx9JgEdA Dec 12 18:35:35 :/ Dec 12 18:35:37 wow, google has some horrible URLs.... Dec 12 18:35:52 yeah, wtf? Dec 12 18:35:57 fuck nokia messaging. what a stupid idea to have support request routed to "general" nokia support. they returned me a call, promised to fix something on their side and nothing still, no fucking ticket number Dec 12 18:36:12 google users those urls to track what I click on, apparently Dec 12 18:36:17 yep Dec 12 18:36:27 *uses :P Dec 12 18:36:50 well, it's still a cool video Dec 12 18:37:23 the main difference of "consumer" vs "technical" support services is that "consumer" ones *NEVER* provide a tracking ticked and you *NEVER* know what happens there and if someone really works on it Dec 12 18:37:34 mmmmmm steak n chips Dec 12 18:37:36 s/ticked/ticket/ Dec 12 18:37:37 Arkenoi meant: the main difference of "consumer" vs "technical" support services is that "consumer" ones *NEVER* provide a tracking ticket and you *NEVER* know what happens there and if someone really works on it Dec 12 18:37:52 so i really hate it Dec 12 18:38:20 =( Dec 12 18:38:27 Arkenoi: what was your problem? Dec 12 18:38:39 http://theoatmeal.com/comics/customer_service - Arkenoi Dec 12 18:38:48 (not that i can directly help, but i'm curious, and if it's interesting, i might find the other side and ask them to poll to see where it went) Dec 12 18:40:05 * RST38h does not understand something: it looks like the Fremantle toolbar in FBReader fits 30% fewer icons than the Diablo toolbar Dec 12 18:40:09 What the hell? Dec 12 18:40:30 spacing? Dec 12 18:40:32 The new button margins are huge. Dec 12 18:40:32 I think the icons are bigger Dec 12 18:40:36 timeless, actually i have two - one is that i cannot set up a pop3 mailbox because stupid AI thinks that mail server should match domain name and simply refuses to register and second one even more annoying is that i have problem with outgoing email via google mailbox, two messages are there with permanent failure, one of those is to ContactCentre.Europe@nokia.com ;-) Dec 12 18:40:41 no, same sized icons Dec 12 18:40:48 'AI'? Dec 12 18:40:50 margins do seem to be bigger Dec 12 18:40:55 I was able to get rid of the interior margins. Dec 12 18:41:01 artifical intelligence Dec 12 18:41:01 But I couldn't get rid of the outside ones. Dec 12 18:41:02 when I put a spacer explicitely, I almost can't notice it Dec 12 18:41:11 If you figure out how, let me know. Dec 12 18:41:15 Anyways, I had to sacrifice a few icons, folks Dec 12 18:41:19 Hope you will not mind Dec 12 18:41:26 that's how i call all that smart ass programs who try to overthink the user Dec 12 18:41:28 Arkenoi: wait a second Dec 12 18:41:35 RST38h: I didn't have that luxury. Dec 12 18:41:38 Arkenoi: MS Office? Dec 12 18:41:39 are you saying that there's a publicly listed email address that doesn't work? Dec 12 18:41:40 hey, what's the thing with maemo talk. i can create new threads with my account, but can't reply anyone else's Dec 12 18:41:53 Arkenoi: if that's the case, um, let's get that going somewhere Dec 12 18:41:55 derf: Well you can always do your own toolbar of course.. Dec 12 18:42:03 RST38h: It's not just the toolbar. Dec 12 18:42:04 that even, not who. i am starting to antropomorhize it ;-) Dec 12 18:42:09 _All_ of the buttons have larger margins. Dec 12 18:42:58 * RST38h curses those "finger oriented" UI designers Dec 12 18:43:05 my fingers are not that large Dec 12 18:44:04 I mean, the only place it really mattered to me was the kanji radical lookup table. Dec 12 18:44:21 I can't tell Japanese to use fewer radicals. Dec 12 18:44:28 heh Dec 12 18:44:32 Arkenoi, whats the bug number for the problem you are encountering Dec 12 18:44:34 Much as I might like to sometimes. Dec 12 18:45:15 i cannot work out exactly whats happening from your vague description here and like timeless would not like to just leave it hanging Dec 12 18:45:20 lcuk2, it is not n900-related so there is no bug number, it is service failure :-( Dec 12 18:45:43 they do not provide me bugzilla interface for Nokia Messaging Dec 12 18:45:52 who dont? Dec 12 18:46:04 nokia doesn't use bugzilla much internally Dec 12 18:46:09 Qt uses *something* Dec 12 18:46:12 Maemo uses bugzilla Dec 12 18:46:16 * SpeedEvil wants to submit bug on the stupidly rubbery charger cable. Dec 12 18:46:18 most of nokia uses a db you'd never want to touch Dec 12 18:46:26 trust me, i looked, i'm scared Dec 12 18:47:07 well, if they only had a trouble ticket system you'd probably have the description Dec 12 18:47:18 better one Dec 12 18:47:26 but they do not Dec 12 18:47:55 i receive anonymous calls, anonymous emails and then i simply cannot find a person who called or a person who emailed me Dec 12 18:50:09 Arkenoi: heya' Dec 12 18:53:12 is it really true that the garage website is offline since thursday? Dec 12 18:54:49 people shouldn't do work on weekends :) Dec 12 18:55:00 yeah Dec 12 18:55:45 is there an alternative download location for esbox? Dec 12 18:56:06 johnq: server move probably Dec 12 18:58:58 omg! Dec 12 18:59:04 the python extension compiled! Dec 12 18:59:13 the first thing that worked since wednesday! Dec 12 18:59:47 grumble...any idea where i can find the sources for libical ? Dec 12 19:03:29 moo Stskeeps Dec 12 19:03:43 Hi Dec 12 19:03:54 moo RST38h Dec 12 19:04:21 how are things? Dec 12 19:04:41 RST38h: master's thesis handin in 3 days, gues Dec 12 19:04:41 s Dec 12 19:04:41 :P Dec 12 19:05:04 * w00t whips Stskeeps Dec 12 19:05:08 thesis faster! Dec 12 19:05:27 * timeless_mbp pokes Gadgetoid_iMac Dec 12 19:05:27 Stskeeps: Dec 12 19:05:39 Stskeeps: Wait until you start on a PhD... Dec 12 19:05:41 * Gadgetoid_iMac feels pokered Dec 12 19:05:47 final exam grades are up for me, I just got an 87.5% =) Dec 12 19:05:59 woo undergrads Dec 12 19:06:05 RST38h: i'm making very sure noone would ever admit me for a phd programme. Dec 12 19:07:44 at the moment i just want the degree :P Dec 12 19:08:07 Stskeeps: defending masters thesis in computer modeling of the australian sheep breeding habits, as function of weather? Dec 12 19:08:32 Ok, one more last FBReader build, and I am done for today Dec 12 19:08:33 ^ sounds interesting, I'd read that paper Dec 12 19:08:54 Hope everyone will like the new default settings though... Dec 12 19:08:58 RST38h: close enough, rehabilitative exercise recognition via computer vision Dec 12 19:09:25 Stskeeps: Ah, that is kinda applied, as they come Dec 12 19:09:47 i'm really into applied cs.. to an extent Dec 12 19:10:31 no shit, with all the embeded systems work you are doing... Dec 12 19:11:26 electric sheep? what you're dreaming of? Dec 12 19:13:20 * Arkenoi reads livejournal comments on my mini-faq which mostly descibes google sync issues.. seems that it was really major fuckup for nokia to underestimate the importance of google sync before the product release.. people laugh on us Dec 12 19:14:09 Arkenoi: *shrug* Dec 12 19:14:23 hopefully someone will write glue Dec 12 19:14:26 Arkenoi: that is different Dec 12 19:14:29 i think that eventually MfE will support google Dec 12 19:14:30 i <3 google sync. would use it if it worked. hooray for open source Dec 12 19:14:31 well, I get enough bug reports of users that complain that MfE does not work properly with Google Dec 12 19:14:47 Arkenoi: judging from comments, you are simply being mugged by a bunch of Android zealots Dec 12 19:15:06 Arkenoi: And looks like the iPhone ones are starting to gather as well ;) Dec 12 19:15:10 talking about open source and sync thingy.. anybody know where i can find the source for libical that comes with the n900 ? Dec 12 19:15:23 melmoth: mxr.maemo.org/fremantle/ ? Dec 12 19:15:28 if it's open, it should be there Dec 12 19:15:31 Arkenoi: Obviously, Android is supposed to sync perfectly with Google Calendar =) Dec 12 19:16:00 http://mxr.maemo.org/fremantle/source/libical/debian/changelog?force=1 Dec 12 19:16:05 actually google sync is *more* important than whe whole MfE thing for current n900 audience Dec 12 19:16:09 seems like libical (1.43-99.3+0m5) Dec 12 19:16:12 s/whe/the/ Dec 12 19:16:12 Arkenoi meant: actually google sync is *more* important than the whole MfE thing for current n900 audience Dec 12 19:16:21 melmoth, plus tarballs at http://repository.maemo.org/pool/fremantle/free/libi/libical/ Dec 12 19:16:29 ahh, tarball is better. Dec 12 19:16:45 Arkenoi: MfE should include contacts.. Dec 12 19:16:57 ok, 4.22.8-25-g633d is working for me (y) Dec 12 19:17:09 ratMin: what's that? Dec 12 19:17:32 ~ping Dec 12 19:17:33 ~pong Dec 12 19:18:01 timeless_mbp: sry, wrong channel .. irssis is someteme litle hard to read Dec 12 19:18:10 timeless_mbp, and it simply cannot be done truly properly as using MfE adds activesync limitations to google ones. and there is major potential issue that we will lose some contat fields that cannot be synced properly Dec 12 19:18:31 Arkenoi: you want us to write yet another client Dec 12 19:18:32 in 2 days Dec 12 19:18:45 and test it thoroughly against 1 thousand google accounts Dec 12 19:18:50 with all sorts of random contact sets? Dec 12 19:18:52 sounds great Dec 12 19:19:03 what army do you have available that i can use for this task? Dec 12 19:19:25 :-) nope, i just say it is the thing that should be given priority several months before release ;-) Dec 12 19:19:38 then maybe we already had it today Dec 12 19:19:45 * timeless_mbp shrugs Dec 12 19:19:46 hello does anyone now using n900 nokia Dec 12 19:19:48 how is it Dec 12 19:19:53 what feature would you have dropped? Dec 12 19:19:54 it's great Dec 12 19:19:56 MfE? Dec 12 19:20:02 mail for exchange Dec 12 19:20:04 Camera support? Dec 12 19:20:15 yeah, definitely mail for exchange. Dec 12 19:20:20 heh Dec 12 19:20:29 hi all Dec 12 19:20:34 I like to suck boiled sweets Dec 12 19:20:41 s/boiled sweets/cock Dec 12 19:20:45 actually i guess dropping whole MfE in favor of Google sync may be better than vice versa ;-) Dec 12 19:20:46 personally, i'd have dropped Nokia Messaging Dec 12 19:20:52 yes! Dec 12 19:20:58 It was worth a try... Dec 12 19:21:01 but can you imagine management approving that? Dec 12 19:21:35 :-) Dec 12 19:21:44 mmm "nokia messaging" ? thats not the messaging ui i use every day Dec 12 19:21:49 for sms is it? Dec 12 19:21:52 no Dec 12 19:21:56 timeless_mbp: just throw Maemo 5 away and release Android firmware Dec 12 19:22:10 Gadgetoid_iMac: i'm pretty sure that puts me out of a job Dec 12 19:22:12 phew! thats a relief Dec 12 19:22:13 right Dec 12 19:22:16 and they probably see google being direct competitor to ovi services Dec 12 19:22:18 btw Dec 12 19:22:21 lcuk2: http://email.nokia.com/account/home.action Dec 12 19:22:22 lcuk2: kind of a push service for email Dec 12 19:22:22 you can run Android on N900 hardware? Dec 12 19:22:25 how to get this firefox for this n900 Dec 12 19:22:30 Arkenoi: really? wow Dec 12 19:22:32 having ovi email and nokia messaging totally unrelated is just as insane Dec 12 19:22:35 Arkenoi: that's on the point Dec 12 19:22:36 timeless_mbp: Also, Maemo >>>>>> Android Dec 12 19:22:36 what an incredible idea Dec 12 19:22:38 oh, like sms but bigger Dec 12 19:22:38 I know you can run Android 1.5 on N800 but it is really slow... Dec 12 19:23:22 haha , have fun man when u get tired sleep well Dec 12 19:23:29 Arkenoi: nokia is moving. probably away from cheap phones and towards webservices/content provider Dec 12 19:23:30 thanks for advice Dec 12 19:23:36 actually, http://email.nokia.com/account/faq.action Dec 12 19:23:46 DocScrutinizer, and there already is google. Dec 12 19:23:54 yep Dec 12 19:24:04 it is better to make friends with it than to copy it poorly Dec 12 19:24:15 Arkenoi: would u tell me how to have this firefox for my nokia n900 Dec 12 19:24:18 don't tell *me* Dec 12 19:24:36 jiajia: do you have an n900? Dec 12 19:24:45 timeless_mbp: yep Dec 12 19:24:55 jiajia: do you want Firefox Mobile (Fennec)? Dec 12 19:25:00 jiajia, you probably do not want. it lacks microb features. Dec 12 19:25:03 yeah sure Dec 12 19:25:13 timeless_mbp: yeah sure Dec 12 19:25:16 I personally give a sh*t on ovi, as I do on google, or exchange Dec 12 19:25:40 Arkenoi: but i think that is much better than the one "web" Dec 12 19:26:01 timeless_mbp: how could i get it ,thanks alot Dec 12 19:26:03 jiajia: go to http://firefox.com/m on your n900. But I also prefer microb for now (at least until weave works, that is). Dec 12 19:26:13 If I was a google fanboy I had got me an androidiot Dec 12 19:26:37 kevloral: omigosh, the number of redirects i got there was amazing Dec 12 19:27:14 Fennec is slow like hell Dec 12 19:27:17 kevloral:where can i get this microb Dec 12 19:27:23 And tends to hang the tablet as a whole, too Dec 12 19:27:27 jiajia: he gave you the url Dec 12 19:27:32 jiajia: it is the browser that comes with the n900 by default. Dec 12 19:27:36 anyways, there is no direct profit on ovi services, just expenses. thinking that one will buy things in ovi store just because it is related to ovi mail or ovi sharing services is ridiculous. those are completely unrelated. so why support it and not to provide customers what they really want? Dec 12 19:27:40 haha nice thanks Dec 12 19:27:41 oh oops Dec 12 19:27:52 sorry, yeah, microb is the included browse Dec 12 19:27:56 r Dec 12 19:28:05 RST38h: I agree. It is very resource hungry. Dec 12 19:29:07 Arkenoi: so, asking why nokia business management does stuff is imo offtopic Dec 12 19:29:28 nokia has managed to earn money for various years and seems to be run by businessmen Dec 12 19:29:39 they don't do things unless they see some way to make money from doing them Dec 12 19:29:55 but asking/speculating on that isn't topical for this channel Dec 12 19:30:09 and it puts nokia employees in an uncomfortable position Dec 12 19:31:01 http://www.linuxfordevices.com/c/a/News/HardKernel-Odroid/ - and even before release, pandora is run out of the market? Dec 12 19:31:04 :P Dec 12 19:31:30 Stskeeps: lol. Dec 12 19:31:34 Yeah but if you sit around with an Odroid people are just going to laugh at you Dec 12 19:31:49 Although I wish the Pandora had its HDMI out Dec 12 19:31:56 in contrary to a email with a pandora preorder in it? Dec 12 19:32:14 Stskeeps: looks good, but still vapourware Dec 12 19:32:21 johnsq: yeah.. Dec 12 19:32:29 johnsq: that said, 320x480 is kinda crap Dec 12 19:32:48 Stskeeps: probably essential for the HDMI out Dec 12 19:33:56 timeless: hey, I should have known and adopted that PoV some 2 years ago. Whould have eased my life several times Dec 12 19:34:07 Stskeeps: I see, thats bad, so still n900 the best device. Dec 12 19:34:31 so when will i see more 3d games Dec 12 19:34:33 on my n900 :\ Dec 12 19:34:43 does Ovi sync contacts to N900? Dec 12 19:34:55 no working version of ovi suite for n900 Dec 12 19:34:56 yet Dec 12 19:35:26 Ceron^: any time frame for that? Ovi looks pretty cool but I have no way to try it out Dec 12 19:35:46 isn't there Ovi for the N800? Dec 12 19:35:46 ovi e-store? Dec 12 19:35:48 or the ovi suite? Dec 12 19:35:54 suite Dec 12 19:36:45 also, is anyone else getting " Dec 12 19:36:45 Stskeeps: it has "no cellular connection"? Dec 12 19:36:46 We're sorry, Ovi.com is unavailable at the moment." Dec 12 19:36:52 so it's basically an overpriced gameboy? Dec 12 19:37:04 think of it as an internet tablet, timeless_mbp Dec 12 19:37:06 timeless_mbp: pandora doesn't have celluar either afaik Dec 12 19:37:07 :P Dec 12 19:37:17 nezb: nope, ovi.com works fine from here. Dec 12 19:37:20 I still use my Gameboy Color from time to time Dec 12 19:37:25 nezb: i'm pretty sure i can buy a 770 for less :) Dec 12 19:37:30 andre__: ping Dec 12 19:37:54 timeless_mbp: I spent $400 on my N800 when I first got it. It kills me to know that is is almost worthless now. Dec 12 19:38:06 what, worthless? Dec 12 19:38:06 :P Dec 12 19:38:12 well, to sell. Dec 12 19:38:17 I still use it from time to time. Dec 12 19:38:30 an iPod touch replaced it as an internet tablet, sadly Dec 12 19:39:13 * timeless_mbp chuckles Dec 12 19:39:16 i have an iPod touch Dec 12 19:39:19 nokia bought it for me Dec 12 19:39:27 i haven't used it in ages, heck, i don't remember where i put it Dec 12 19:39:28 why would they do that? Dec 12 19:39:38 the iPod touch has a web browser Dec 12 19:39:45 salari Dec 12 19:39:49 i work on the browser for the n800/n810/n900 Dec 12 19:39:55 so it's a competitive product Dec 12 19:40:20 timeless_mbp:which browser u think it is the best for n900 Dec 12 19:40:22 * Arkenoi will pay $50 to anyone who is willing to sell his n800 ;-) Dec 12 19:40:26 you always need to know your competitors Dec 12 19:40:27 the Safari for iPhoneOS is amazing. I still prefer it to even the N900, although I must give major props to the N900 MicroB Dec 12 19:40:37 jiajia: would it surprise you to hear me say that i'm biased? Dec 12 19:40:37 Arkenoi: only 50$? Dec 12 19:40:40 Gawd, did h-a-m get slower in Fremantle or is it just me? Dec 12 19:40:59 pffftt.. iphone doesnt even have flash Dec 12 19:41:01 jiajia, MicroB. Dec 12 19:41:09 ljp: meh, flash is overrated Dec 12 19:41:20 evo, pong Dec 12 19:41:22 GAN900:thanks man Dec 12 19:41:39 nezb: most websites/ads, I would say ya. but there are good uses for flash as well Dec 12 19:41:42 nezb, well, and my old n770 as a bonus. that's how i estimate the upgrade value ;-) Dec 12 19:41:43 andre__: sorry to bother you, just wanted to be sure you got my mail yesterday Dec 12 19:41:48 nezb, spoken like a true iPhone user. ;) Dec 12 19:41:49 evo, yes, ariived. thanks :) Dec 12 19:41:53 like online kids games to keep my kids entertained Dec 12 19:42:05 GAN900: I have an iPhone and an N800, N900... not really biased here Dec 12 19:42:06 GAN900: how could i get this microb from my n900 sire: Dec 12 19:42:10 andre__: thanks to you :) Dec 12 19:42:12 ljp: good games didn't need flash :> Dec 12 19:42:13 Arkenoi: where do you live Dec 12 19:42:22 Arkenoi: i'd tell you that the product was actually the "nokia 770" Dec 12 19:42:22 Russia Dec 12 19:42:30 but it seems are sales team can't get our product names straight Dec 12 19:42:32 Moscow Dec 12 19:42:34 I can't take any browswr that runs at less than VGA seriously. Dec 12 19:42:34 so i'm not sure i should bother Dec 12 19:42:37 nezb: Apple is overrated Dec 12 19:42:47 jiajia, it's the built-in on. Dec 12 19:42:47 Arkenoi: shipping from the U.S. will be more expensive than the device... Dec 12 19:42:59 andre__: I think I found a new bug, I'll report it (albums with same name but different authors always get same cover even if they're different) Dec 12 19:43:04 wazd: in some regards, yes. Mac OS X is their only worthy product. Dec 12 19:43:06 s/on/one/ Dec 12 19:43:07 GAN900 meant: jiajia, it's the built-in one. Dec 12 19:43:10 yep :-( unless someone is travelling and willing to take it with him Dec 12 19:43:12 aha i did not find it , so u menan the one called "web" Dec 12 19:43:35 Yes Dec 12 19:43:41 nezb: Citibank Online has flash password input to prevent keylogging Dec 12 19:43:50 what's the "xorg" logging process i usually see when running top? Dec 12 19:43:51 .. Dec 12 19:43:52 wazd: LOL Dec 12 19:44:00 * GAN900 wonders idly what the source status of MicroB is these days. Dec 12 19:44:00 nezb: any phone without minimal flash support is a junk automaticaly Dec 12 19:44:04 you can keylog flash... Dec 12 19:44:05 GAN900: alright so i don't need to download what ever firefox Dec 12 19:44:28 GAN900: technically the gecko part is in mxr / repo Dec 12 19:44:29 * nezb just installed fennec on N900 to try it out. looks nice so far. Dec 12 19:44:31 the other part, gah, i suppose i could ask someone Dec 12 19:44:36 but not over the weekend Dec 12 19:44:57 jiajia: you're welcome to try any browser that runs on the n900 Dec 12 19:45:01 we're not stopping you Dec 12 19:45:10 if you like a different browser, that's your choice Dec 12 19:45:12 timeless_mbp, last impression I was under was that it would be open for Maemo 5. Dec 12 19:45:14 Arkenoi: I can pay you 50 bucks for your n900 :D Since you've got it for free :P Dec 12 19:45:27 timeless_mbp: haha i just wanna the best one is enough Dec 12 19:47:09 * Arkenoi paid $80 for 770 1.5 years ago ;-) Dec 12 19:47:31 Arkenoi, wazd: BTW http://abbra.livejournal.com/156578.html?thread=911010#t911010 Dec 12 19:47:56 any good ideas for cool things to do with my old N800? Dec 12 19:48:32 nezb: installing qt 4.6 Dec 12 19:48:44 RST38h, yep, already seen it Dec 12 19:48:46 nezb: cool is in the eye of the beholder Dec 12 19:48:51 nezb: there are plenty of cool aps Dec 12 19:48:53 nezb: hide it under your kid brother's bed and at night, play your voice with a sound modulator and go "The humans will diiiiiiiiiee, sooooooooon" Dec 12 19:48:57 or you coul develop software for it Dec 12 19:48:58 where are all the opengl games for n900 :( Dec 12 19:49:04 nezb, "toilet rss reader", that's it ;-) Dec 12 19:49:15 Arkenoi: my ipod touch already does that :P Dec 12 19:49:24 nezb: "braaaaaaains" Dec 12 19:49:28 crashanddie_mbp: that would probably scare the crap out of my kid brother Dec 12 19:49:39 nezb: my point exactly Dec 12 19:49:42 crashanddie_mbp: he would probably smash the N800 after that though :P Dec 12 19:49:51 n800 is better- bigger screen Dec 12 19:49:58 Markus23: do you have a guide for that? Dec 12 19:50:13 Arkenoi: yeah but I prefer the app I use on the iPod touch Dec 12 19:50:31 iPhoneOS has some really good apps, to be honest Dec 12 19:50:42 nezb: are you beginner or programmer? Dec 12 19:50:42 some of the N900 stuff isn't "finger optimized" enough Dec 12 19:51:09 Markus23: I prefer to call it "hacking" rather than "programming" :P Dec 12 19:51:20 nezb: it has gps, or? you could do geo caching :-) Dec 12 19:51:29 Markus23: no GPS :( Dec 12 19:51:42 ohh, ok, then the solutions are external, sorry Dec 12 19:51:48 ooh I got a good idea. I have an LED grid that uses a serial port to program the display. Dec 12 19:52:10 I can buy a USB-serial adapter and control the display with the N800 over 802.11 wifi Dec 12 19:52:34 nezb: you could hack something where you track what you are trinking at a night and it shows you the promille of alcohol :-) Dec 12 19:52:43 (I hope you are not young) Dec 12 19:52:45 maybe stream twitter.com/WeAreMaemo to it or something :P Dec 12 19:53:08 Markus23: I have a keychain breathalizer that runs on two AAA batteries for that :P Dec 12 19:53:14 you may plug usb wifi and go wardriving (iirc builtin wifi does not allow packet injection) Dec 12 19:53:16 hehehe Dec 12 19:53:38 I went wardriving with a friend a couple of times. We upgraded a lot of router firmwares. Dec 12 19:53:48 :-) Dec 12 19:54:02 * luke-jr ponders if it's possible to have a handheld with both LCD and OLED displays Dec 12 19:54:18 luke-jr: i am interested too Dec 12 19:54:21 and the LCD only powered up for video or low-light Dec 12 19:54:36 would be fantastic Dec 12 19:54:46 don't think it exists now Dec 12 19:55:15 is there MMS for N900? Dec 12 19:55:23 plus an eInk keypad ;) Dec 12 19:55:27 nezb, no Dec 12 19:55:33 or e-ink with lcd Dec 12 19:55:34 they should make MMS for the N900 Dec 12 19:55:35 even better? Dec 12 19:55:37 but mms seems to be almost dead Dec 12 19:55:46 Markus23: eInk is currently greyscale only Dec 12 19:55:47 my friends still use it. Dec 12 19:55:47 nezb: nobody needs MMS, or? Dec 12 19:55:53 Markus23: probably not wanted for regular use Dec 12 19:55:54 i made a poll, about 500 people responded to it Dec 12 19:55:57 college students + iPhone = lots of MMS usage Dec 12 19:56:02 luke-jr: if you have lcd anyway for fallback? why do you need colors then? Dec 12 19:56:08 I sold my iPhone to get the N900 Dec 12 19:56:11 luke-jr: for reading eInk is really really great Dec 12 19:56:14 Markus23: it just wouldn't market well Dec 12 19:56:15 i personally like MMS, it is like SMS on steroids and push email is not widespread enough Dec 12 19:56:27 anyone else have their phone telling you the firmware version is (null) in About Product? Dec 12 19:56:27 Markus23: perhaps eInk+OLED+LCD :p Dec 12 19:56:36 MS Exchange is a horrible excuse for push email Dec 12 19:56:40 Markus23: would be even sweeter if it could be overlay-based... Dec 12 19:56:56 but it turns out that almost no one uses it and more than half people either have incapable phone or their phones were not set up properly Dec 12 19:57:11 hi, I'm having trouble getting on the internet. I'm using the N900 device. Following the directions here: http://wiki.maemo.org/N900_USB_Networking Dec 12 19:57:32 and there are major connectivity problems for different operators Dec 12 19:57:41 I can ping the computer from the device, but not the other way around, also the device cannot resolve googe.com Dec 12 19:57:45 and it is simply not reliable enough Dec 12 19:58:17 why push email when you can have normal imap? Dec 12 19:58:35 because imap does not push, it is polling Dec 12 19:58:42 so mms is effectively dead, i sent 3-4 messages a month and received 1-2 Dec 12 19:59:04 it depends on the market. may college students use mms Dec 12 19:59:12 s/may/many Dec 12 19:59:24 is there some generic way of accessing letters that are not printed on the keyboard? Dec 12 19:59:28 that's the reason too Dec 12 19:59:40 guaqua - push the blue arrow and then SYM Dec 12 19:59:40 "mms is for schoolboys" Dec 12 19:59:50 quite common misconception Dec 12 19:59:57 guaqua: you might try the on screen keyboard, or I don't know if you can plug in a keyboard Dec 12 20:00:07 hmm Dec 12 20:00:08 actually, wtf Dec 12 20:00:16 eInk has a colour version since 2005 Dec 12 20:00:17 N900 doesn't do host USB mode so you can't plug in a keyboard ... Dec 12 20:00:18 nobody uses it? Dec 12 20:00:36 nezb: I was wondering about that Dec 12 20:00:48 luke-jr: so color eInk + lcd :-) Dec 12 20:00:55 nezb: but I could connect to the internet right? Dec 12 20:01:01 Markus23: sounds nice Dec 12 20:01:10 eink has demonstrated a colour eink panel != eink has made commercially available at a reasonable price reliable panels. Dec 12 20:01:12 Markus23: will require some serious X hacking i suspect :x Dec 12 20:01:12 maybe n910 *g* Dec 12 20:01:38 luke-jr: yes, multitouch is more realistic Dec 12 20:01:41 since eInk DPI is not comparable to LCD dpi yet Dec 12 20:01:53 no usb host mode on n900 ? Dec 12 20:01:55 really ? Dec 12 20:01:57 goal of the day: bulid and install prboom on the n900 Dec 12 20:01:58 Markus23: tbh, I don't care about touch period Dec 12 20:01:59 please do not speak of an N910... I don't have any money left lol Dec 12 20:01:59 luke-jr: or you could make it hardware-switchable Dec 12 20:02:15 nezb: is there a way to get to another 'page' in the special characters? Dec 12 20:02:17 Markus23: ? Dec 12 20:02:29 dl9pf: can you or nezb explain what that means? Dec 12 20:02:30 dl9pf: If htere is USB host mode, nobody has gotten it working. Dec 12 20:02:54 nezb: lol, only joking, did not open my n900 box yet Dec 12 20:03:03 guaqua: I'd like a return button on the botton of the console onscreen keyboard Dec 12 20:03:15 how do you launch the onscreen keyboard? Dec 12 20:03:19 guaqua: not sure Dec 12 20:03:27 luke-jr: I mean to switch between eink and lcd not by X but by hardware Dec 12 20:03:28 it's under settings Dec 12 20:03:30 I like it Dec 12 20:03:33 nezb: ahh. got the accents in another way :) Dec 12 20:03:36 Markus23: Open it!! Dec 12 20:03:39 Markus23: you would need to restart X too Dec 12 20:03:40 guaqua: how? Dec 12 20:03:48 Markus23: X cannot change DPI on the fly Dec 12 20:03:49 hpbox: i enabled it, but it doesn't pop up anywhere Dec 12 20:04:02 nezb: dead accent keys for ' and ` Dec 12 20:04:07 guaqua: next hit any textbox, or console Dec 12 20:04:23 guaqua: I'm talking about the n900, I'm newbie to maemo Dec 12 20:04:35 hpbox: the same for me Dec 12 20:04:46 I'm starting to feel the differences between debian and redhat Dec 12 20:05:01 quaqua: what are you trying to do? Dec 12 20:05:16 i needed to get some accents, but got it covered Dec 12 20:05:22 guaqua: sorry I'm using irssi Dec 12 20:05:22 now i'd like to see that onscreen keyboard Dec 12 20:05:36 luke-jr: ok, that is definitiv a problem then, maybe they etink and lcd can have same resolution :-) Dec 12 20:05:50 guana: did you figure out how to switch between windows yets? Dec 12 20:05:51 Markus23: eInk afaik can only do 80 dpi or so at most Dec 12 20:05:52 hpbox: debian is great, or :-) Dec 12 20:05:56 you'll never use same video-interface for LCD and eInk. So you'd need separate xserver anyway Dec 12 20:06:20 Markus23: I use F12 Dec 12 20:06:29 DocScrutinizer-8: X support multiple video interfaces... Dec 12 20:06:34 luke-jr: when color ink has reasonable prices it may do much more :-) Dec 12 20:07:13 * luke-jr wonders what the color eink framerate is Dec 12 20:07:28 has anyone tried the Skype with video calls (front web cam)? Dec 12 20:07:31 hpbox: applications > settings > text input Dec 12 20:07:35 hpbox: what has F12 to do with debian? Dec 12 20:07:39 luke-jr: probably like 1/2fps Dec 12 20:07:41 aha, so it can do concurrent interfaces but only with same resolution? though completely different modelines? interesting Dec 12 20:07:45 * Arkenoi wonders if my GSM operator will ever let me reroute incoming calls to SIP.. they already do that, but not for my home network Dec 12 20:07:46 is there a web cam in n900? Dec 12 20:07:52 Markus23: yes Dec 12 20:07:57 640x480 cam in the front Dec 12 20:08:00 5MP cam in back Dec 12 20:08:03 DocScrutinizer-8: even with different resolutions. but the DPI is the problem Dec 12 20:08:16 wow, didn't know of that Dec 12 20:08:24 Markus: they are different, my comment is that i can really see the differences I was reffereing to configuration files etc.. Dec 12 20:08:53 Markus: web cam yes 2 I think Dec 12 20:09:03 btw did you try "mirror" application - do you get reasonable picture quality there? I get terrible digital nose all over Dec 12 20:09:07 noise Dec 12 20:09:12 I get horrible picture from Mirror app Dec 12 20:09:13 Markus: web cam yes, at least one is definatly a web cam the other may be only a camera Dec 12 20:09:33 so that's not me just having faulty cam Dec 12 20:09:37 very static-y image with little color on Mirror Dec 12 20:09:38 the two cameras have different resolutions Dec 12 20:09:44 I think the app has bad code or something Dec 12 20:10:21 how can I tell the device that I want it to use usb0 to communicate to the internet? Dec 12 20:10:33 hpbox: route command? Dec 12 20:10:41 I can ping my host computer, bu... Dec 12 20:10:43 yeah Dec 12 20:10:47 that's what I need to do Dec 12 20:10:54 nezb: how? Dec 12 20:11:06 on the host or the device? Dec 12 20:11:12 ip route add default via ... Dec 12 20:11:16 on device Dec 12 20:11:39 /sbin/route Dec 12 20:11:49 or just ifdown the wifi Dec 12 20:12:15 /sbin/route is deprecated :p Dec 12 20:12:34 luke-jr: really? didn't know that Dec 12 20:12:35 why? Dec 12 20:12:51 nezb: iproute2 replaced it Dec 12 20:12:54 oh Dec 12 20:12:56 same syntax? Dec 12 20:12:58 no Dec 12 20:12:59 ah, thanks.. ifdown wifi says "..not configured" Dec 12 20:13:10 I don't know if /sbin/route supported interface creation and such Dec 12 20:13:22 or routing tables Dec 12 20:13:23 SpeedEvil: straaange. the bat capacity reading gets kinda stuck during device idle and dim. and just dropped 46->35 when I unlocked it Dec 12 20:13:41 no I don't think so either. Dec 12 20:13:44 iptables? Dec 12 20:13:58 DocScrutinizer-8: how do you get numberic battery percent? Dec 12 20:14:00 SpeedEvil: before it was stuck at 46 for 60min Dec 12 20:14:14 I typed iproute2 I wish I could pastebin the results Dec 12 20:14:15 nezb: iptables doesn't do routing Dec 12 20:14:17 reading battery capacity is not an exact science Dec 12 20:14:20 nezb: lshal Dec 12 20:14:25 hpbox: the command is 'ip' Dec 12 20:14:48 DocScrutinizer; yeah - it seems wiered. Dec 12 20:14:49 DocScrutinizer-8: erm... what should I grep from that Dec 12 20:14:55 luke-jr: ip returned a command not found Dec 12 20:14:57 nezb: yes, it actually is pretty muhc. Dec 12 20:14:58 precent Dec 12 20:15:11 or try bat Dec 12 20:15:19 nezb: trying to interpret what the value really is secondhand is annoying though. Dec 12 20:15:19 hpbox: ew Dec 12 20:15:35 oh well Dec 12 20:15:42 battery.charge_level.percentage = 56 (0x38) (int) Dec 12 20:15:43 perhaps just eInk for keypad then Dec 12 20:16:05 maybe I should make a widget that displays battery percent on your home screen? Dec 12 20:16:24 luke-jr: would it help to know what iproute2 says? Dec 12 20:16:27 heh, skype call from n900 to n800 -- california to italy -- my mate hasn't been in a house for 3 months, only tents Dec 12 20:17:19 nezb: it would be nice Dec 12 20:17:33 is making widgets hard? maybe I will do it Dec 12 20:17:57 sorry that's /sbin/route, I'm a complete newb Dec 12 20:18:26 nezb: annoyingly that 58% does not actually seem to be consistnet Dec 12 20:18:31 i prefer percentage Dec 12 20:18:52 predicting lifetime would be even better Dec 12 20:19:15 it should be that tapping the battery icon tells you this information, but alas that is not the case :\ Dec 12 20:20:33 SpeedEvil: either: that cell chemistry and percentage is calculated from voltage. voltage drops on current rising due to Z. Or: hald or whatever else is involved in bat capacity readout gets suspended when device goes to 'deepsleep' Dec 12 20:25:37 aah great. And charger plugin wasn't detected on first go yet another time :-\ Dec 12 20:25:57 that happens to me sometimes. I just re-plug it Dec 12 20:27:02 yes. replug fixes it. yet annoying Dec 12 20:28:28 * luke-jr wonders if OMAP3 has enough processing power to reasonably drive an AR handheld Dec 12 20:28:37 DocScrutinizer: the 'raw' graph looks like it doesn't update until the backlight is on almost Dec 12 20:28:55 whats the name of that plugin? Dec 12 20:30:36 SpeedEvil: if there's a way to draw raw currunt from cell without changing device state we could tell apart if it's caused by current rising or cpu doing some update Dec 12 20:30:47 current Dec 12 20:30:55 DocScrutinizer: or I need to finish up my patch lead set. Dec 12 20:31:06 DocScrutinizer: and just measure. Dec 12 20:31:13 what would you patch? Dec 12 20:31:28 DocScrutinizer: to the bat leads, to measure bat v - for this Dec 12 20:31:51 yep Dec 12 20:31:53 cool Dec 12 20:32:08 I tried something with croc-clips, but it's not wanting to know. Dec 12 20:32:09 could also attach a stunt Dec 12 20:32:11 I have a friend who just did a bike (push bike) trip from southern egypt to northern italy and his only device was a n800 -- loaded with 32 gb of movies and shows for the chill out nights -- their only piece of electronic equipment Dec 12 20:32:35 DocScrutinizer: that too. Dec 12 20:33:17 charger attached. capacity more like drops rather than climbs. weird Dec 12 20:35:24 has someone got network-usb for the n900 working correctly with ubuntu's NetworkManager? Dec 12 20:35:46 it was quite a pain to get it working for the FreeRunner, but some time it magically worked for me. Dec 12 20:35:58 now the problems begin again with the n900... Dec 12 20:36:43 johnq_: see? not all OM problems are genuine Dec 12 20:36:59 johnq_, johnsq? :) got n900? Dec 12 20:38:23 slonopotamus: ? Dec 12 20:39:26 johnq_, you aren't johnsq? Dec 12 20:39:49 slonopotamus: not that I know ;-) Dec 12 20:40:13 argh. please, misters johns.*, would you be so kind to choose more distinguishable nicknames? :) Dec 12 20:44:43 o_O Dec 12 20:56:45 bye all! Dec 12 20:59:25 RST38h: what are the top size of the icon again? :) Dec 12 20:59:27 is* Dec 12 21:00:27 wazd: 64x64 Dec 12 21:00:37 wazd: but do go for svg Dec 12 21:01:18 wazd: if you are not doing svg, 48x48 feels like a sensible base size that can still be kinda resized Dec 12 21:01:54 hi all Dec 12 21:02:19 i was wondering if anyone has had problems with scratchbox and automake Dec 12 21:02:26 RST38h: no, I'll do svg Dec 12 21:03:02 i'm trying to configure the svn trunk of abiword from the sources, but...well, it's just being strange Dec 12 21:03:24 on the one hand, it's properly detecting the host_os variable as linux-gnu Dec 12 21:04:10 but on the other hand, it's generating a makefile that has mac osx only features, which are only allowed for if host_os=darwin Dec 12 21:04:27 i'm almost certain that scratchbox has something to do with it Dec 12 21:05:18 weather of where you currently are - how cool is that! http://maemo.org/downloads/product/Maemo5/omweather/ Dec 12 21:05:43 in which frequency do new application occur these days? Dec 12 21:06:59 http://www.eyetap.org/research/medr/rwm.html Dec 12 21:08:00 Ugh Dec 12 21:08:32 Updated to the FBReader in Extras-devel and no more rocker scrolling. :( Dec 12 21:09:17 RST38h, what version is yours? Dec 12 21:10:26 0.7.10_4 Dec 12 21:10:44 I think Garage is so dead that it has not even moved my packages into Extras-Devel yet Dec 12 21:10:49 Ugh Dec 12 21:10:54 even the binary packages =( Dec 12 21:10:59 Stupid ISP Dec 12 21:11:19 We need an ISP that doesn't make development and usage impossible. Dec 12 21:11:26 dang that's sick. after almost 1h of charging 32% no change Dec 12 21:12:31 Has anybody succeeded in compiling a kernel module for maemo? Dec 12 21:12:52 peterq: compiling or compiling + loading? Dec 12 21:13:49 timeless_mbp: yeah, loading is the problem ;-) Dec 12 21:15:19 DocScrutinizer, did it actually start charging? Dec 12 21:16:21 GAN900: you bet. it gets noticably warm Dec 12 21:17:15 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=udlxr8t1nZM Dec 12 21:17:56 BwaaHaHAHAAHA. unplugged charger... -> bumps up from 32 to 79 Dec 12 21:19:13 * jshupe just purchased an n900 from Amazon.com Dec 12 21:19:27 congrats Dec 12 21:20:30 thanks. Dec 12 21:20:30 hmm anyone know if there's a specfic pulse audio sink that the mediaplayer uses? Dec 12 21:22:53 why should it be different from what other audioapps use? Dec 12 21:23:08 sp3000: but can it butter the bottom side of my toast? Dec 12 21:23:43 somebody mentioned compiling the iptables module yesterday Dec 12 21:23:54 unfortunately I don't remember who that was Dec 12 21:24:10 DocScrutinizer-8, just curious because I'm trying to use xmms2 on it and it blasts at max volume out so am wondering if there is a separate audio sink for it Dec 12 21:24:30 sp3000, that promo video has some typos in their german. quite embarassing Dec 12 21:24:44 andre__: lol Dec 12 21:24:46 heh Dec 12 21:24:47 but as it's fake anyway... Dec 12 21:25:32 sup Dec 12 21:25:54 ruskie: isn't max volume a good thing first instance? Dec 12 21:28:36 no Dec 12 21:28:46 it happens also if I do stop and then play Dec 12 21:31:48 ruskie: sorry don't follow. Probably extreme hypoglycemia Dec 12 21:32:44 * Arkenoi wonders - according to user blogs, almost every second n900 newbie says that he "installed IM client". Why? What's wrong with builtin one? The whole n900 concept is about getting rid of such thing as "IM application" and they install it in the first hand anyways? Dec 12 21:33:47 I for one hate pidgin (purple) Dec 12 21:33:57 Arkenoi: yeh but mayb they mean also plugins(i hope) Dec 12 21:34:08 nope, they usually mean pidgin Dec 12 21:34:14 okay. Dec 12 21:34:34 wish the IRC plugin would be more usable.. tho xchat is much more fun :) Dec 12 21:34:51 pidgin has options enabled for video chat with gtalk and it "sees" the camera (in that in the config, you can pick either camera and it lists them), but i havent tried a video conf with it yet. Dec 12 21:34:58 so for IRC I'm just happy I can install xchat Dec 12 21:35:01 Arkenoi: builtin stuff does not transfer files, does not let you query information about the user Dec 12 21:35:08 Arkenoi: and does not do IC Dec 12 21:35:10 IRC Dec 12 21:35:20 it does Dec 12 21:35:41 anyone know what the deal is with java on n900? amigo wants to install a java app. Dec 12 21:35:45 but the way it does... :-S Dec 12 21:36:18 jebba: not supported out of the box Dec 12 21:36:35 https://wiki.evolvis.org/jalimo/index.php/Maemo [bad cert] Dec 12 21:36:49 use 'http' instead Dec 12 21:37:45 * timeless_mbp grumbles Dec 12 21:37:51 what idiot provides a readonly wiki editor? Dec 12 21:38:13 timeless_mbp: i dont see anything in extras or -devel or anywhere. Is it something anyone is working on or? ...not supported out of the box... does that mean it is supported elsewhere? Dec 12 21:38:18 heh Dec 12 21:38:31 jebba: that url was for you Dec 12 21:38:34 in the box only Dec 12 21:38:38 beware, the English is written by a German Dec 12 21:38:53 once you unpack it you no longer have support Dec 12 21:38:56 or at least, i suspect it's a german Dec 12 21:39:13 ah thx Dec 12 21:39:14 is that not so nice sounding, or what? Dec 12 21:40:12 hmmm Dec 12 21:40:39 is there an unzip app ? Dec 12 21:40:57 i'm stuck with a zip file :) Dec 12 21:41:03 yabo: with a gui or without? Dec 12 21:41:09 you can get infozip from the repos Dec 12 21:41:16 don't care Dec 12 21:41:28 get mc Dec 12 21:41:59 lol Dec 12 21:42:05 i got unzip from an internal repo Dec 12 21:42:12 it seems someone decided it was important to package Dec 12 21:42:12 i have neither infozip nor mc Dec 12 21:42:29 as i said, you can *get* them from repos Dec 12 21:42:42 the package you want is 'unzip', assuming you don't need to be able to zip Dec 12 21:42:43 what repos ? Dec 12 21:42:52 probably extras-devel.. Dec 12 21:42:58 argh Dec 12 21:43:23 extras-devel kills your children and eats your kitten :) Dec 12 21:43:40 well, it might be in testing, but i doubt it Dec 12 21:43:45 so can I have the remaining kittens? Dec 12 21:43:48 you could get someone to push it to testing Dec 12 21:43:53 not in testing :( Dec 12 21:45:37 http://repository.maemo.org/extras-devel/ Dec 12 21:46:34 Shit, why not just replace maemo.org/packages with ageofikon.info ? Dec 12 21:46:49 oups Dec 12 21:47:12 yabo: www.ageofikon.info and search for Maemo5 / unzip Dec 12 21:47:18 so i'll have to say good bye to my kitten :( Dec 12 21:47:29 thanks ! Dec 12 21:48:04 "coming soon" Dec 12 21:54:10 wtf ageofikon.info ? Dec 12 21:54:43 why do you have to ask? Dec 12 21:55:57 http://ageofikon.info/packrat/ Dec 12 21:56:36 and why do you have to ask? Dec 12 21:57:00 well, apparently yabo and I did the same thing. anyway. why do you have to ask why do i have to ask? Dec 12 21:58:30 jesse ventura is such a joke Dec 12 21:58:41 andre__: the fsf-gnome thing on /. sounds fun Dec 12 21:59:09 yeah, just realized it Dec 12 21:59:12 jebba: I am bored and willing to do some psychoanalysis. Dec 12 22:00:01 timeless_mbp: and I'd be happy if idiots like RMS would just shut the fuck up. unsure whether dropping GNU is helpful for that though... need to read more mail first Dec 12 22:00:32 i think it's easiest for folks if a good url is given to start with. anyway, done. Dec 12 22:01:44 andre__: you have that inverted. it's idiots like you that need to shut up ;) Dec 12 22:02:00 luke-jr, i beg to differ ;-) Dec 12 22:02:32 luke-jr, I've attended the keynote of RMS at GCDS conference this year. I felt offended by what he said Dec 12 22:02:48 andre__: that's probably your fault Dec 12 22:02:55 luke-jr, why? Dec 12 22:03:03 because he makes sexist jokes about virgins? Dec 12 22:03:22 wtf is he doing talking anything of the sort at a tech conference? Dec 12 22:03:34 andre: is RMS himself a virgin btw? Dec 12 22:04:27 also, did he carry that kettle and a plastic bag with teas all the way to the podium? Dec 12 22:04:44 fine, maybe RMS is a nut Dec 12 22:04:46 RMS is like Michael Jackson to me. Both have done great stuff in the 80es and early 90es, but in this decade... let's forget about it. Dec 12 22:04:49 but he's not ALWAYS *toally* wrong Dec 12 22:04:53 "maybe"? Dec 12 22:05:09 totally* Dec 12 22:05:10 "not always"? Dec 12 22:05:33 luke-jr, well, being totally wrong is hard. Sounds like the "but Hitler has build motorways" argumentation to me ;-) Dec 12 22:05:38 lol Dec 12 22:05:52 andre__: well, often when people want RMS to shut up, he's right :p Dec 12 22:06:13 "You are not right. Hell, you are not even wrong!" Dec 12 22:06:26 I should not have logged in tonight ... bye! Dec 12 22:06:42 luke-jr, then I exclude myself from "people". Because of course *I* am more right! :-D Dec 12 22:06:44 Does anybody know where to get the vagalume last.fm API key? Dec 12 22:07:29 andre__: you're more likely to get off excluding yourself from "often" Dec 12 22:07:31 ok, sleep. Dec 12 22:07:36 hehe Dec 12 22:08:03 gentlemen, I am going to blame you both if RMS comes into my dreams tonight Dec 12 22:08:20 RST38h, I can give you my postal address to send mailbombs :) Dec 12 22:08:22 RST38h: that would be quite worrying dream Dec 12 22:08:27 shouldn't have even mentioned the creep this late in the night Dec 12 22:08:41 now everyone will have nightmares Dec 12 22:08:49 I bless your computer, my child. Dec 12 22:08:55 read xkcd first Dec 12 22:09:21 is there an up-to-date package of modest somewhere? Dec 12 22:09:23 dont HURD me i beg before falling to sleep Dec 12 22:09:40 http://xkcd.com/225/ Dec 12 22:10:37 andre__: do you know? Dec 12 22:11:04 xorAxAx, in gitorious there's the code, non packaged :-) Dec 12 22:11:21 whats gitorious? Dec 12 22:11:24 ............. Dec 12 22:12:04 RST38h: http://lotro.ucoz.ru/icon.svg ? Dec 12 22:12:12 git... Dec 12 22:12:43 wazd: But...mmm...what is it? =) Dec 12 22:12:50 oh the eye... Dec 12 22:13:10 RST38h: :D Dec 12 22:13:17 wazd: can you fit a few more pieces of that vulture into the icon? =) Dec 12 22:13:44 RST38h: I think it's gonna be a bit messy on low resolutions Dec 12 22:14:12 true Dec 12 22:14:16 RST38h: and eye is somehow attracting eye :) Dec 12 22:14:24 stylize it somehow? Dec 12 22:14:51 andre__: i understand that rms said something and that it made news Dec 12 22:14:57 but will i be able to find out what he said? Dec 12 22:15:50 RST38h: mmm Dec 12 22:16:14 (and in case people are curious, i'm intentionally avoiding the fruit articles) Dec 12 22:16:18 timeless: depends on the license on the words. Dec 12 22:16:24 how is the command called that generates a changelog entry? Dec 12 22:16:36 * RST38h falls asleep. Dec 12 22:17:21 DocScrutinizer51: where did you buy your n900? Dec 12 22:18:18 (i mean the debian/changelog file) Dec 12 22:19:02 timeless_mbp, the recent problem, or the problem in July at the conference? Dec 12 22:19:10 the conference one Dec 12 22:19:19 ah, dch! Dec 12 22:19:24 that sounds more interesting :) Dec 12 22:19:25 why does nobody answer me :-P Dec 12 22:19:33 * timeless_mbp is watching "I love trouble" Dec 12 22:19:49 xorAxAx: dch? Dec 12 22:19:55 Is there a way to put vultures claw into a '2d' mode? Ideally with ascii? Dec 12 22:20:20 whats up with RMS? Dec 12 22:20:22 timeless_mbp, I don't think that there is a video of it, so I can only offer 2nd hand articles about it Dec 12 22:20:28 he's a pretty coold dude btw Dec 12 22:20:33 I made him type in vim once ;) Dec 12 22:20:41 i'd just like the wording Dec 12 22:22:35 doh nm, got my acronyms confused, was thinking of ESR Dec 12 22:22:39 I haven't met RMS Dec 12 22:22:46 timeless_mbp, I could offer http://opensourcetogo.blogspot.com/2009/07/good-gcds-beginning-with-significant.html but that is of course biased (and my position too) Dec 12 22:22:54 timeless_mbp: debchange Dec 12 22:23:20 andre__: thankw Dec 12 22:23:53 Does anyone elses huly vids all blinky while playing on the phoen? Dec 12 22:24:01 hulu* Dec 12 22:25:17 i've noticed lately all my flash vids are blinky Dec 12 22:30:10 sooo i'v got unzip to work :) Dec 12 22:30:45 now i'm worried of / being used at 90% Dec 12 22:30:59 arhghgh Dec 12 22:30:59 after a couple of days Dec 12 22:31:00 whats wrong with this thing Dec 12 22:31:23 it seems that /usr/lib takes 150mb Dec 12 22:31:40 they should have made / somewhat bigger Dec 12 22:31:47 AakashPatel: hulu vids are too highres to play smooth in flash on the device Dec 12 22:32:05 im hoping the situation will get better with flash 10/hardware accelerated decoding Dec 12 22:32:16 omap3 isn't what it's cracked up to be :) Dec 12 22:32:17 but I wouldn't hold my breath, flash sucks on every platform Dec 12 22:33:14 agreed heh Dec 12 22:33:31 The only platform it'd look good on would be a sacrificial altar. Dec 12 22:33:34 is it possible to change the fs layout ? like having a 1go / ? Dec 12 22:33:38 scotty is the only red shirt that survives Dec 12 22:33:44 Yeah, just checked on my desktop Dec 12 22:33:52 it uses 25% of both cores :/ Dec 12 22:34:20 flash is one of those apps that will use just about everything you throw at it whether it needs it or not Dec 12 22:34:26 Hah Dec 12 22:34:56 yabo: one issue is that the / device is 256M - so you can't do that that way Dec 12 22:35:16 yabo: and / is moderately faster than the internal SD card Dec 12 22:35:17 oh Dec 12 22:35:24 ok Dec 12 22:36:22 but it should work if I move /usr/lib to the sdcard no ? Dec 12 22:37:46 It probably makes sense to do that for some dirs, yes. Dec 12 22:38:09 yuizy: no Dec 12 22:38:12 err Dec 12 22:38:13 doh Dec 12 22:38:19 that was meant for yabo Dec 12 22:38:28 microsd wont mount on boot if it isnt fat :( Dec 12 22:38:38 device regens fstab every boot Dec 12 22:38:44 that's pretty trivial to fix though Dec 12 22:38:47 in principle Dec 12 22:38:53 SpeedEvil: faster... sure? Dec 12 22:39:04 DocScrutinizer: a bit. Dec 12 22:39:05 so whats filling the / eventually? Dec 12 22:39:28 ive got 60M still free, less than 90% used Dec 12 22:39:36 basically v/var it seems Dec 12 22:39:42 haven't tried it myself yet, but as soon as it gets figured out and stabilized I want to reallocate some of my fat32 space towards a real filesystem Dec 12 22:39:43 DocScrutinizer IIRC ~15M/s from internal nand, ~13 from internal SD, ~10 from external SD Dec 12 22:39:59 DocScrutinizer51: ah thats suckage Dec 12 22:39:59 hmm Dec 12 22:40:14 ifreq: yep Dec 12 22:41:03 if /home is mounted early, we could move /usr and /var just lie /opt Dec 12 22:41:42 SpeedEvil: strange. why's external sd slower than iMMC? Dec 12 22:41:42 go1dfish, http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=35122&page=6 Dec 12 22:43:26 DocScrutinizer, the built-in onenand is faster (for small files) than the built-in emmc Dec 12 22:43:28 ouch Dec 12 22:43:45 a big cp freezes the phone :s Dec 12 22:43:59 yabo, temporarily Dec 12 22:44:03 DocScrutinizer: It is a 1G microSD I got a couple of years ago as it was cheap Dec 12 22:44:04 * ruskie is quite happy with his repartitioned setup Dec 12 22:44:05 curious about the io scheduler they chose Dec 12 22:44:12 mmc type things run an emulation/translation layer that makes them look like block devices. Also, mmc command overhead is kinda large, which makes requesting small transfers relatively expensive Dec 12 22:44:48 the onenand is more "raw" access and ubi/ubifs does a much better job at turning the flash into a fast filesystem Dec 12 22:44:57 SpeedEvil: btw last boot actually freed some 20meg on / Dec 12 22:45:03 mmc/sd type things are really built for and optimized for huge files, like digital cameras and mp3 players Dec 12 22:45:04 ruskie: thanks I was just looking at that Dec 12 22:45:11 DocScrutinizer: yeahh - that's rather broken. Dec 12 22:45:14 if I split my microsd into two partitions, it will still expose the first to usb? Dec 12 22:45:15 obviously some files not closed yet Dec 12 22:45:28 DocScrutinizer: I looked - and couldn't find any of significance Dec 12 22:45:34 go1dfish, of course you still have the prob that stuff in extras will get optified Dec 12 22:46:00 I think I want to go with a 6 gig fat32 partition on microsd, for an ubuntu x86 usb image and various windows utils Dec 12 22:46:02 which is why I'd like to run my own autobuilder and repo so I can avoid the optification :) Dec 12 22:46:21 and use the rest of the microsd as ext3 for chroot Dec 12 22:46:37 I'd like to try that before digging too deep into repartioning the built in storage Dec 12 22:46:41 I don't use an sd at all :) Dec 12 22:46:46 ah ok Dec 12 22:46:51 SpeedEvil: stale filehandles (file moved/deleted. handle keeps zombie alive)? Dec 12 22:46:55 * SpeedEvil just uses one for backup. Dec 12 22:47:06 other thene used it for backup when I was doing the repartition work Dec 12 22:47:12 ruskie: couldn't you give all the space to /usr Dec 12 22:47:14 DocScrutinizer: I did find /proc - looking for deleted files in /proc/*/fd Dec 12 22:47:25 and move/link /opt to /usr/opt Dec 12 22:47:26 go1dfish, what's the point in that Dec 12 22:47:38 by all the space I mean combined usr/opt Dec 12 22:47:39 I like the FHS layout ;) Dec 12 22:47:47 and will try to avoid doing such hacks Dec 12 22:48:04 heh ok Dec 12 22:48:10 * SpeedEvil wonders where to find the real find Dec 12 22:48:20 I guess I don't see that as too bad since it already ships with /home/opt/ linked to /opt heh Dec 12 22:48:27 I wish there were gnu utils on it as well Dec 12 22:49:05 go1dfish, well an idea I had when all this optification decission stuff was going on was just use LVM and have hooks in apt/dpkg to resize as needed Dec 12 22:49:14 quite annoying... Dec 12 22:49:16 ado I recall correctly: /usr/(s)bin is for all the foo that's not mandatory for first bootphase? Dec 12 22:49:18 heh lvm would be sweet Dec 12 22:49:34 but would probably cause havok with the usb mass storage stuff Dec 12 22:50:05 I hate it that it catters to win users so much Dec 12 22:50:17 my opinion is that I would like to still have some usb mass storage capability (as fat) but not necessary on the internal storage Dec 12 22:50:35 i so... only 10 minutes left till my birthday ends Dec 12 22:50:36 the default usb export is mmcblk0p1 Dec 12 22:50:42 * timeless_mbp frowns Dec 12 22:50:44 happy bday arachnist Dec 12 22:50:52 go1dfish: so erm Dec 12 22:50:55 ruskie: thanks :) Dec 12 22:51:04 it also exports the sd, not sure if its the whole device or a single partition though Dec 12 22:51:05 arachnist: Happy birthday! Dec 12 22:51:10 resizing file systems is mostly a waste of time Dec 12 22:51:12 SpeedEvil: thanks :) Dec 12 22:51:33 * SpeedEvil passes arachnist a cake with a fizzing candle-shaped object on it. Dec 12 22:51:38 there should have been a better default layout Dec 12 22:51:40 * SpeedEvil closes the box marked dynamite. Dec 12 22:51:49 but note that the microsd card will be exported over usb if it's fat Dec 12 22:51:52 a 5gb usr is more than enough for everything Dec 12 22:51:57 (actually, it'll probably be exported anyway) Dec 12 22:52:04 SpeedEvil: hehehe Dec 12 22:52:10 SpeedEvil, c4 is better, you can make good looking clay models out of them Dec 12 22:52:17 ruskie: kinda hard to partition a 256mb solid state device into X + 5gb Dec 12 22:52:26 timeless_mbp, combined with the emmc Dec 12 22:52:27 are you willing to pay 600EUR extra for the privilege? Dec 12 22:52:33 :/ I must say the mail client is driving me crazy Dec 12 22:52:40 it keeps downloading spam from gmail Dec 12 22:52:41 microlith: how come? Dec 12 22:52:51 modest annoys me in other ways Dec 12 22:52:53 I suppose I should set it up to use pop3 instead of imap Dec 12 22:52:57 ruskie: that makes safe flashable upgrades essentially impossible Dec 12 22:53:04 timeless_mbp, why? Dec 12 22:53:12 ruskie: flashing works on volumes Dec 12 22:53:32 it knows about the 256mb volume and the 32gb volume Dec 12 22:53:32 SpeedEvil: do you remember old unix days? On diamond disk drive there was /, /bin /sbin /root(!) and /etc and /boot. all the other crap went to large cheap disks which might fail occasionally Dec 12 22:53:38 and is this device meant to be flash upgraded or OTA upgraded? Dec 12 22:53:44 yes Dec 12 22:53:59 ruskie: both Dec 12 22:54:00 anyone here developing openvpn for maemo? Looks like there is quite serious security hole... Dec 12 22:54:15 yeah both I know... but what's the primary update mechanism Dec 12 22:54:18 I'd say OTA Dec 12 22:54:23 saltsa_: in software that isn't shipped? Dec 12 22:54:33 timeless_mbp, well, it's in extras-testing Dec 12 22:54:34 ruskie: the primary recovery mechanism after bricking the device Dec 12 22:54:37 is reflash the system Dec 12 22:54:51 timeless_mbp, after bricking I would expect to reflash both volumes Dec 12 22:55:02 o_O yikes! Dec 12 22:55:06 ruskie: so you lose all your user data? Dec 12 22:55:07 ... losing all your data. Dec 12 22:55:08 great idea Dec 12 22:55:08 and lose all my data Dec 12 22:55:18 you're not a user Dec 12 22:55:19 Hmm. D-Bus won't start in Scratchbox. I've seen this error before but can't remember the fix (and can't find it via Google either) Dec 12 22:55:20 and you're fired Dec 12 22:55:26 DocScrutinizer: not quite Dec 12 22:55:27 lol Dec 12 22:55:28 thanks for playing Dec 12 22:55:46 all my data is always backed up Dec 12 22:55:47 DocScrutinizer: though for a couple of laptops, I have had a couple of meg in-ram chrooted tools - just in case Dec 12 22:56:00 ruskie, thats as maybe, but its still a PITA to copy it back on Dec 12 22:56:21 i do the same in windows, small partition for system, large data partition Dec 12 22:56:27 ruskie: again, you don't sound like a normal user Dec 12 22:56:31 i can upgrade replace OS at will Dec 12 22:56:35 without mucking with data Dec 12 22:56:40 i haven't me a single normal human with a current backup Dec 12 22:56:49 I backup all my data to the N900 =) Dec 12 22:56:50 including myself, and i lost an n900 not too long ago Dec 12 22:56:58 hah javispedro Dec 12 22:57:01 which one :p Dec 12 22:57:03 timeless_mbp, you've seen a user have backups? Dec 12 22:57:17 I thought only my mom did those regulary Dec 12 22:57:24 so :( Dec 12 22:57:29 ruskie: old out of date backups, created the first time they use a device Dec 12 22:57:31 and never updated Dec 12 22:57:49 first time they encounter backup tool, they run it Dec 12 22:57:53 it does nothing interesting Dec 12 22:57:56 so forget its there Dec 12 22:58:12 it should actually ask to setup when to run it on first run Dec 12 22:58:32 on a schedule you mean Dec 12 22:58:35 yup Dec 12 22:58:42 that i actually agree with Dec 12 22:58:45 is copying /usr/share to /opt and linking it back risky ? Dec 12 22:58:45 timeless_mbp, and I never was a normal user in the first place... not even when I got the first PC Dec 12 22:58:51 and it does backup to the emmc? Dec 12 22:58:56 in times past there was a countdown between last run backup Dec 12 22:59:03 and warnings appeared if you missed it Dec 12 22:59:14 my times past Dec 12 22:59:17 not on the device Dec 12 22:59:18 it should try backing up to the SD then to MMC and make a note to store to SD asap Dec 12 22:59:19 ruskie: please don't try to redesign a product targetted at end users Dec 12 22:59:27 s/targetted/targeted/ Dec 12 22:59:28 timeless_mbp meant: ruskie: please don't try to redesign a product targeted at end users Dec 12 23:02:34 timeless: huh? that sounds odd. Maybe I got you wrong Dec 12 23:02:47 ? Dec 12 23:05:48 is open-xchange with mobile(plugin) compatible with the N900 Dec 12 23:06:12 Odd Dec 12 23:06:38 I followed http://maemo.org/maemo_release_documentation/maemo4.1.x/node15.html#SECTION001523120000000000000 to install gdb on diablo Dec 12 23:07:02 My mis-set hostname - 16 nulls - was breaking pidgin Dec 12 23:07:11 and got Konnte http://repository.maemo.org/dists/diablo/free/binary-armel/Packages.gz nicht holen 404 Not Found [IP: 62.156.238.59 80] Dec 12 23:07:33 does anybody know where I can find gdb for diablo? Dec 12 23:07:40 timeless_mbp, I just consider that end users for the n900 should actually be more knowledgable than the average smartphone/regular cell phone user Dec 12 23:07:51 you're kidding Dec 12 23:08:08 no Dec 12 23:08:20 I actually expect users to learn how to use a device properly Dec 12 23:08:28 * timeless_mbp rotfl Dec 12 23:08:29 not just in a "what does this button" do style of context Dec 12 23:08:29 the "tap on a button to edit setting" hint in the welcome wizard seems to disagree Dec 12 23:09:19 timeless_mbp, I'm spoiled... most of my users actually know how to reinstall their own systems and actually use them without needing handholding Dec 12 23:09:39 * lcuk2 giggles Dec 12 23:09:51 what a rarity to have that Dec 12 23:10:00 ruskie: I agree on the n900, I wouldn't say the n900 is yet targetted at end users Dec 12 23:10:08 I guess Dec 12 23:10:24 but much more targetted at power users/geeks right now Dec 12 23:10:24 I work at an IT shop so it makes sense Dec 12 23:10:38 though we do have one genious that claims that Intel and AMD CPUs are incompatible Dec 12 23:10:39 is it normal that /opt isn't mounted via fstab file ? Dec 12 23:10:52 at an instruction level that is Dec 12 23:10:59 yabo, nothing is mounted via fstab Dec 12 23:10:59 you *do* have to know a little about how things work under the hood to get a good experience out of the device still I think Dec 12 23:11:04 * lcuk2 used to deal with old ladies who couldnt differentiate a computer from a tv Dec 12 23:11:16 the fstab is generated after everything is mounted Dec 12 23:11:25 iirc Dec 12 23:11:26 or mostly after Dec 12 23:11:32 and opt is a symlink Dec 12 23:11:34 ruskie hmm everything is declared there though Dec 12 23:11:34 not a mount Dec 12 23:11:48 hoh ok Dec 12 23:11:56 even though a mount -o bind would probably work just as well Dec 12 23:12:08 yabo, it's generated after it's mounted(I think for everythi ngeb the SD card) Dec 12 23:12:15 do have an idea for my questioin abou;/usr/share ? Dec 12 23:12:27 yabo: given that /opt is a symlink Dec 12 23:12:30 so who is actually mounting then? Dec 12 23:12:37 it's not surprising it wouldn't be a mountpoint.. Dec 12 23:12:46 DocScrutinizer51, event and init scripts Dec 12 23:12:55 yay Dec 12 23:12:58 rcS-late generates the fstab Dec 12 23:13:19 it might also mount MyDocs Dec 12 23:13:26 or home Dec 12 23:13:26 not sure Dec 12 23:13:27 event == upstart then? Dec 12 23:13:28 I think home is Dec 12 23:13:36 all the vfat stuff seems to be handled by something else again Dec 12 23:14:19 hmm i don't understand this, when i setup my smtp server on a connection specific smtp server in the mail app, it won't work, if i don't use connection specific, it does Dec 12 23:14:34 found /etc/events.d "d /etc/default :-D Dec 12 23:14:43 redeeman, do you setup auth for both? Dec 12 23:14:46 yes Dec 12 23:14:48 is it possible to make MyDocs ext3 ? Dec 12 23:14:51 stuff for hours to ponder Dec 12 23:14:55 odd Dec 12 23:15:03 yabo, camera stops working Dec 12 23:15:05 yabo: if you don't mind breaking usb mass storage Dec 12 23:15:10 and possible some other stuff as well Dec 12 23:15:16 timeless_mbp: why would mass storage be breaking? Dec 12 23:15:21 argh :s Dec 12 23:15:25 usb mass storage should still work from what I know Dec 12 23:15:33 it'll just export it as ext3 Dec 12 23:15:37 ruskie: on a windows computer? Dec 12 23:15:37 gadget storage works fine in linux for ext3 Dec 12 23:15:40 works on a block device level iirc Dec 12 23:15:43 well.. who cares about that Dec 12 23:15:45 on your *average* windows computer? Dec 12 23:15:47 ruskie: exactly, it will work fine Dec 12 23:16:12 it's weird to have so much good ideas in this phone and such issues at the same time Dec 12 23:16:38 what issue? Dec 12 23:16:52 I see a feature.. Dec 12 23:16:58 i don't want vfat :) Dec 12 23:17:27 yabo: i don't know if stuff will complain if you switch to ext3, but i do know that mass storage will work Dec 12 23:17:46 camera app doesn't like ext* Dec 12 23:17:55 ruskie: It doesn't? Dec 12 23:17:56 it won't save anything Dec 12 23:18:01 and I think other apps have similar issues for some reason Dec 12 23:18:12 and is that related to ext3, or just dcim folder not existing? Dec 12 23:18:16 which is imho a bug Dec 12 23:18:27 or a case sensitivity issue? Dec 12 23:18:33 javispedro, seems to be ext related Dec 12 23:18:38 that's insane Dec 12 23:18:39 hmm Dec 12 23:18:40 DCIM doesn't exist until you take a photo does it? Dec 12 23:18:47 it existed on my device from day one Dec 12 23:18:59 i think its probably a case sensitivity issue, otherwise they'd have to fuck up seriously hard Dec 12 23:19:01 some stuff is pre-generated Dec 12 23:19:06 strace it Dec 12 23:19:26 how can ext* failt on a task vfat accomplishes? Dec 12 23:19:28 strace -e trace=file camera-app (whatever it is called) Dec 12 23:19:38 then you'll know the answer :) Dec 12 23:19:40 does ext* support case UNpreserving Dec 12 23:19:42 DocScrutinizer51, because vfat is more stupider Dec 12 23:19:43 ;) Dec 12 23:19:49 DocScrutinizer51: case sensitivity could be it Dec 12 23:19:52 no clue Dec 12 23:20:06 the problem is if the camera app tries to access directories with different casing Dec 12 23:20:09 you could probably use some case mangling fuse filesystem Dec 12 23:20:10 though symlinks MIGHT solve that Dec 12 23:20:11 it could also be bad permissions Dec 12 23:20:16 to test if this happens Dec 12 23:20:22 And my wrecked hostline had screwed modest too Dec 12 23:20:23 vcreate lowerccase. expect uppercase? OUCH! Dec 12 23:20:27 ali1234, I had rwx at the time Dec 12 23:20:42 ruskie: well umask could still be wrong Dec 12 23:20:45 ali1234, for all Dec 12 23:20:49 What was yall's /etc/hostline? Dec 12 23:20:56 but like i said, strace it, the answer will become clear Dec 12 23:21:15 I kept a 2gb vfat partition for MyDocs for now Dec 12 23:21:20 I think the photo storage I'd still want on vfat actually, so that windows machines could see it as a digicam Dec 12 23:21:22 which is a good idea Dec 12 23:21:26 still hoping the file manager will sometime open up and allow full access Dec 12 23:21:49 ruskie: you could create a loopback image on MyDocs and mount then. then you can grow and shrink it too Dec 12 23:22:00 Ok I just grabbed a computer Dec 12 23:22:02 ali1234, yeah I've seen that idea Dec 12 23:22:03 ~nuke filemanager Dec 12 23:22:04 * infobot prepares 100 missle silos, and targets them at filemanager ... B☢☢M! Dec 12 23:22:06 was actually thinking about it Dec 12 23:22:07 a bit painful from the N900 :) Dec 12 23:22:16 I read that someone was making UI concepts for FM Radio app in Barcelona Dec 12 23:22:31 Any chance to see em? Dec 12 23:23:27 hm first we need a fm app that,s not borking the mic Dec 12 23:23:44 it borks the mic? Dec 12 23:23:50 yoh Dec 12 23:23:58 ruskie: Nokia never will (nor, particularly should they) ship a file manager which allows access outside of /home/user/(MyDocs) or /media/mmc* Dec 12 23:24:02 thats what ive been told Dec 12 23:24:07 ruskie, would it work if I left like MyDoc a vfat 2Go partition and have a MyExtDocs an ext3 partition ? Dec 12 23:24:16 DocScrutinizer51: Well, it leaves the mixer in a state such that the mic is disabled until after a reboot. Dec 12 23:24:30 thats bork Dec 12 23:24:38 yabo, yup I have a MyDocs 2gb and the rest is split between /home /usr /opt Dec 12 23:24:43 ruskie: about the smtp problem, im CERTAIN i have the correct information set, it says it cannot connect to the smtp server, which is the connect host Dec 12 23:25:08 ruskie, great, is there some doc on how to manipulate the FS ? Dec 12 23:25:26 redeeman: sure you can connect to multiple hosts from your current ISP? Dec 12 23:25:27 redeeman, try connecting with telnet on the device? Dec 12 23:25:32 if /etc/fstab is autogenerated Dec 12 23:25:34 http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=424914 <-- yabo a thread about it... read it fully Dec 12 23:25:42 great, thanks Dec 12 23:25:47 DocScrutinizer51: meh, there's a difference between "bork" and "bork"; and with so many newbies coming into the channel it's worth being precise. Dec 12 23:25:48 3 methods are described there now Dec 12 23:25:53 one of the mimen Dec 12 23:25:55 johnx: well, it works if i don't use connection specific smtp servers, so obviously its not an issue reaching it Dec 12 23:26:01 and theres no limits on amount of connections whatsoever Dec 12 23:27:00 Jaffa: ok.Precisely it,s no option to reboot on inbound call when listening FM Dec 12 23:27:07 redeeman, huh? so that SMTP server is the only one you have setup? Dec 12 23:27:32 redeeman: having filed a fairly basic bug about connection specific Dec 12 23:27:36 johnx: i setup the same smtp server in connection specific for the connection, and in the setup for the email account, if i check on "use connection specific smtp server", it fails, if i uncheck it, it works Dec 12 23:27:42 i'm not sure how well it was tested (if at all) Dec 12 23:27:55 and i'm inclined to suspect the latter Dec 12 23:28:08 Jaffa: so prior to new gui I'd like to see this mixer issue fixed Dec 12 23:28:24 * ruskie wonders what would be easier on the n900... flac or ogg Dec 12 23:28:25 * javispedro sighs at mention of libicd-network-wlan bug about autoconnecting to 802.1x networks and git clones libicd-network-wpa sources again.... Dec 12 23:28:41 it just was too good to be true :) Dec 12 23:28:44 * timeless_mbp sighs Dec 12 23:28:46 users suck Dec 12 23:29:03 ruskie: since there's an ogg package in the repo Dec 12 23:29:15 which I think also provides flac... Dec 12 23:29:16 which iirc also provides flac support Dec 12 23:29:36 I meant power wise... flac has a lot of continous access Dec 12 23:29:49 ogg has more decoding(I think) Dec 12 23:30:31 javispedro: tested. works great with flac Dec 12 23:30:58 hey guys, does anyone have vgba 3.6.7-1? Dec 12 23:31:06 ruskie: http://tuomas.kulve.fi/blog/2009/11/07/n900-battery-duration-ogg-vs-mp3/ Dec 12 23:31:51 regarding the FM app borking the mic, you do mean software only right Dec 12 23:31:57 i.e. reboot will fix correct? Dec 12 23:32:16 * Arkenoi wants global "fullscreen" button. mapped to ctrl-enter, for example, is that possible? many programs simply cannot switch fullscreen if there is no button mapped, p.e. rss reader Dec 12 23:32:20 not some sort of hardware damage, because I know mic issues were one of the most widely reported hardware issues with the n900 on maemo.org Dec 12 23:32:20 go1dfish: rebooting doesn't fix dumb users Dec 12 23:32:31 derf, hmm so ogg is the better choice in this case Dec 12 23:32:48 By a little under 10%, yes. Dec 12 23:32:53 Not a huge difference. Dec 12 23:33:13 kulve_: testing on prerelease software has to be a violation of your agreement Dec 12 23:33:19 timeless_mbp: I've never used the fm app, I do have it installed, just wondering if I need to avoid running it Dec 12 23:33:35 even ms isn't stupid enough to allow people to report numbers based on prerelease software Dec 12 23:36:22 anyonek now where i can find VGBA 3.6.7-1? Dec 12 23:39:06 hmmm, copying /usr/share to /opt and make /usr/share a symlink makes the phone unbootable :) Dec 12 23:39:18 ChubChub: sure 3.6.7-1 is out? Dec 12 23:39:27 how are widgets registered in the system? Dec 12 23:39:28 yabo, probably not mounted early enough Dec 12 23:39:39 It was available in the extra-devels before the whole nintendo incident happened Dec 12 23:39:42 i.e. how does hildon know that there is a new widget installed? Dec 12 23:39:56 so I guess I'll have to try the flashing of the phone earlier than expected :) Dec 12 23:40:11 i see 3.6.4-x is on the official site of maker Dec 12 23:40:21 ChubChub: dunno is there newer than that Dec 12 23:40:28 * DocScrutinizer51 grumbles "speaker protection daemon... pfff" Dec 12 23:40:40 isnt't that pulseaudio? Dec 12 23:40:42 yabo, I got my phone on the 3rd this month... I've flashed it atleast 12 times or so by monday the 6th Dec 12 23:40:59 * javispedro hasn't flashed yet and has been toying with upstart Dec 12 23:41:02 http://74.125.153.132/search?q=cache:x6zKEwtY4IIJ:maemo.org/packages/package_instance/view/fremantle_extras-devel_non-free_armel/vgba/3.6.7-1+vgba+3.6.7-1&cd=8&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=au&client=firefox-a Dec 12 23:41:03 not anymore :( Dec 12 23:41:13 anyone managed to get pulseaudio working over tcp at all? Dec 12 23:41:14 Quite funnily the phone reboots again and again and the power button has no effect ^^ Dec 12 23:41:17 on the n900 of course Dec 12 23:41:27 ruskie, haha :) Dec 12 23:41:58 ChubChub: http://fms.komkon.org/VGBA/ Dec 12 23:42:26 go1dfish: omg. why would you want to do *this*? o.O Dec 12 23:42:54 redirect sound Dec 12 23:42:59 DocScrutinizer51: to stream audio to my n900 from my desktop Dec 12 23:43:02 or vice versa Dec 12 23:43:02 ? ;) Dec 12 23:43:10 or more immediately, as a way to get sound from apps in my debian chroot Dec 12 23:43:15 ifreq if you goto his forums he talks of 3.6.7-1 and that the link on his page is quite outdated Dec 12 23:43:16 though you mean RTP or pulse native proto? Dec 12 23:43:38 but I contacted him via maemo and he couldn't upload the newest one since it had been taken down Dec 12 23:43:56 pulseaudio native over tcp yeah Dec 12 23:44:23 i think it's best to use SSH port redirection and manually fwd the cookies Dec 12 23:44:34 i kinda remember a program doing that.... Dec 12 23:44:59 can't find it, maybe it was part of NX Dec 12 23:45:12 * DocScrutinizer51 ponders usefulness and awe created by soundservers Dec 12 23:45:30 bah, you clearly don't know what you're saying =) Dec 12 23:46:07 javispedro: manually forward the cookies? over ssh? Dec 12 23:46:17 I dont want to put the audio over ssh because there is enough cpu overhead as it is Dec 12 23:46:19 Hi! Hopefully getting my N900 sometime this week. Just wanted to ask you guys what your impressions are? :D Dec 12 23:46:33 and ssh would only work if I could get a tcp connection in the first place on the n900 Dec 12 23:46:39 can't even connect on 127.0.0.1 to pulseaudio Dec 12 23:46:42 ah Dec 12 23:47:04 so you need to enter pacmd and load the tcp native module? Dec 12 23:47:43 ayayayyy Dec 12 23:48:00 buh Nokia Updater doesn't find the phone Dec 12 23:48:06 disable-shm = yes... wha??' Dec 12 23:48:16 some said 'as there's enough overhead now' Dec 12 23:48:20 I just hope they know what they're doing Dec 12 23:49:11 hey, the default pulse has quite a lot of modules loaded Dec 12 23:49:19 we could potentially do the per-application mixer app Dec 12 23:49:22 s/do/port Dec 12 23:49:42 javispedro: pacmd says no daemon running? Dec 12 23:50:02 where are you running it? Dec 12 23:50:07 on the n900 Dec 12 23:50:14 in xterm Dec 12 23:50:22 tried as user and with sudo Dec 12 23:50:44 I guess that needs another unloaded module.. Dec 12 23:50:45 javispedro: per-app-mixer?? whatsthat? Dec 12 23:50:59 DocScrutinizer51: you can set volume for individual apps as they are running Dec 12 23:51:03 DocScrutinizer: something flashy that wastes cpu cycles but manages to impress users Dec 12 23:51:31 aaah so like ageold alsa softvol? :-P Dec 12 23:51:42 with more flashyness, icons Dec 12 23:51:43 its one of the cool things pulseaudio enables that everyone forgets when they bitch about it breaking everything else :) Dec 12 23:51:44 etc. Dec 12 23:51:54 goldfish: quick question, you're trying to stream audio but you can't due to connection problems? can you install programs themselves from the app. manager? Dec 12 23:52:12 I have no trouble installing programs Dec 12 23:52:15 and, tbh, the ability to do that on the fly which is something alsa lacked Dec 12 23:52:24 ruskie, the nokia updater keeps saying that the phone is connected in "incompatible mode" Dec 12 23:52:26 any idea ? Dec 12 23:52:31 ahh ok, thought it might be related to somthing else Dec 12 23:52:39 yabo: use linux flasher Dec 12 23:52:43 im trying to do some low level stuff, if your more of a casualish user you should ignore me :) im not trying to stream radio im trying to stream arbitrary audio from my other linux boxes Dec 12 23:52:45 jabhuh? please elaborate Dec 12 23:52:55 can someone tell me which compiler was used to compile the preinstalled kernel for the n900? Dec 12 23:53:01 mmm, spontaneous reboots Dec 12 23:53:05 javispedro, argh, will have to reboot :) Dec 12 23:53:23 I may have already well trashed my device, but havent had to reflash yet Dec 12 23:53:30 my Firmware version does say (null) though heh Dec 12 23:53:46 I don't even know what I did to make it do that, haven't done anything incredibly exotic Dec 12 23:53:50 .. yet Dec 12 23:54:46 javispedro: what's that on-theffly mixing alsa allegedly can't do? Dec 12 23:54:49 DocScrutinizer: redirecting an app that has already opened a card to another card without the app requiring support Dec 12 23:55:04 k Dec 12 23:55:08 DocScrutinizer51: to another system even Dec 12 23:55:19 i..e I could redirect the output of amarok to my n900 Dec 12 23:55:29 if it supported pulseaudio-native-tcp Dec 12 23:55:36 that's actually big advantage and big disadvantage of PA Dec 12 23:55:51 it's a disadvantage for realtime audio certainly Dec 12 23:55:58 that's what JACK is for ;) Dec 12 23:56:04 PA doesn't really has disadvantages if you don't have a hw mixing card Dec 12 23:56:07 s/has/have Dec 12 23:56:13 usually the app *wants* to know exactly about ptoperties of audodev Dec 12 23:56:30 (especially _older_ versions of it) Dec 12 23:56:35 * xorAxAx built a stopwatch for the desktop! Dec 12 23:56:44 (based on eggtimer) Dec 12 23:57:13 javispedro: according to my experience it has. Dec 12 23:57:42 nice anecdote. next! Dec 12 23:57:42 javispedro: it has to clock the audio by itself and sync/resample all the time Dec 12 23:57:47 sooo, on linux now Dec 12 23:58:11 javispedro: as app is 'disconnectedM from aiudiodev Dec 12 23:58:15 are you comparing it to dmix or to bare hw? o Dec 12 23:58:24 both Dec 12 23:58:26 note I said "non hw mixing card" because I wanted to compare it to dmix. Dec 12 23:58:46 app is as disconnected from the audiodev as with dmix and plug Dec 13 00:00:43 hmm. I'm not enough into the details to explain. But I learnt there are diffs in practice as well as in basic operation concepts Dec 13 00:01:31 there are no theoretical reasons for that. Dec 13 00:01:31 on OM we had to kick PA and go back to dmix. PA was a hog Dec 13 00:01:34 both are userspace daemons. Dec 13 00:02:23 though I can't rebate that PA is a hog -- it is. Dec 13 00:02:59 yes. but AIUi alsa the whole plugin stack is clocked by audio timer hw. on PA you can,t do for obvious reasons Dec 13 00:03:23 Not so obvious. As I said, both are user space daemons. Dec 13 00:03:51 well, not really "daemons", but user space. Dec 13 00:03:56 where,s your clock going when you switch devices? Dec 13 00:04:27 even use audio hw on a different machine? Dec 13 00:04:53 you can redirect audio to multiple cards in alsa too -- only you have to build the configuration in a static way Dec 13 00:05:22 (in fact, alsa has a network transparency plugin too iirc) Dec 13 00:05:56 yeah PA is a hog Dec 13 00:06:14 its just worse that if your going to have so much of a hog... that the interesting features enabled by it arent present/enabled Dec 13 00:06:20 hmm, there isn't the european version of the N900 on the download page Dec 13 00:06:29 use the global one. Dec 13 00:06:33 ok Dec 13 00:06:42 if your going to use 5-10% cpu on the sound daemon might as well let me do something useful with it :) Dec 13 00:06:52 what's the diffrence with the "vanilla" version ? Dec 13 00:07:07 read the brief description again Dec 13 00:07:11 hmmm Dec 13 00:08:51 Actually I see very little use coming from the great PA power. switch devices? hell why? Dec 13 00:09:13 network transparency is IMO the killer app for PA Dec 13 00:09:15 * javispedro is a user of hardware mixing for a reason Dec 13 00:09:26 so yeah without it, it's useless Dec 13 00:10:11 C'on network audio... on a MDA!? Dec 13 00:10:16 kiddin? Dec 13 00:10:30 well on the n900 they use it for on-the-fly switching Dec 13 00:10:33 no, I can already run X11 apps with network transparency Dec 13 00:10:34 afaik Dec 13 00:10:41 why not audio as well :) Dec 13 00:10:53 and the some weird policy stuff that's closed. Dec 13 00:11:01 javispedro: switching WHAT? Dec 13 00:11:15 speakers<->3.5mm headphones<->bt headphones<->phone Dec 13 00:12:09 we got 3 or 4 audio sinks. mixer can vol-ctrl each one separately Dec 13 00:12:25 not with the bt one Dec 13 00:12:29 you say you can output to multiple sinks with alsa Dec 13 00:12:53 so where is the big switching? Dec 13 00:13:16 this is *not* a stage mixer Dec 13 00:13:29 also, I don't think speakers and 3.5mm are on different cards =) Dec 13 00:13:37 (from an ALSA PoV) Dec 13 00:13:47 so waht? Dec 13 00:14:24 even better then Dec 13 00:14:28 that still leaves bt, and the policy stuff. Dec 13 00:14:31 one sink less Dec 13 00:17:18 ohmy, the n900 comes with the nfs modules Dec 13 00:18:18 ok, tapping on the screen does not -take- pictures :> Dec 13 00:23:48 javispedro: I couldn't get nfs client working on my loaner Dec 13 00:23:56 haven't tried with my release unit though Dec 13 00:23:58 probably you need nfs-utils and portmapper Dec 13 00:24:15 s/probably/sure Dec 13 00:24:17 yeah, I didn't put that much effort into it Dec 13 00:24:27 I installed everything nfs related I could find in the repos Dec 13 00:24:33 I think all that was was nfs-common though Dec 13 00:24:44 portmap is needed Dec 13 00:25:43 though nfs-common should depend on portmap :S Dec 13 00:25:55 well in that case I'm going to forget about it for now Dec 13 00:30:34 javispedro, I fail at the step : "N900: Remove USB and plug it back. Hold U to get to boot screen with usb logo in top right, letgo." Dec 13 00:30:51 I don't get anything while pressing U Dec 13 00:31:07 the N900 has to be completely turned off before pluggin the usb cable Dec 13 00:31:17 what's the reason the deb-packages downloaded from maemo.org doesn't contain any signatures? Dec 13 00:31:22 It doesn't boot anymore so it's completly off Dec 13 00:31:32 I removed the battery Dec 13 00:31:39 there exists dpkg-sig software but it isn't used for some reason Dec 13 00:31:45 hold U before plugging the USB cable Dec 13 00:32:34 on the N810 just having the flasher "waiting for a device", N810 connected to USB, then turning N810 on was enough. Dec 13 00:32:35 do I have to boot the device while holding U ? Dec 13 00:32:38 yep Dec 13 00:33:04 the usb logo will appear on upper right corner Dec 13 00:33:11 along with the nokia logo Dec 13 00:33:18 How can I run maemo applications on Fedora? Dec 13 00:33:27 So... how do I promote a package in extras-devel to replace an existing package in extras-testing? Dec 13 00:33:42 Because I don't have a "promote" button anymore. Dec 13 00:33:46 heh Dec 13 00:34:41 javispedro, I don't know what I did exactly but the flashing seems have started :) Dec 13 00:36:29 Sooo, up and running again Dec 13 00:36:47 * yabo notes for self that messing up with the filesystem is a bad idea Dec 13 00:48:59 DocScrutinizer51: You assume the two issues are mutually exclusive Dec 13 00:54:21 Oh, that's pretty ironic: http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p=415216&postcount=26 - insightful thoughts on the temperaments of artists, two days before he posts http://lists.maemo.org/pipermail/maemo-community/2009-December/003523.html Dec 13 01:27:07 anybody try to forward their pulseaudio to their computer. Dec 13 01:28:41 Not yet. Thought about doing it the other way, though Dec 13 01:29:13 Yeah, I think it would be useful in both directions. Dec 13 01:30:08 it would be a pretty killer feature. Dec 13 01:32:01 haven't gotten either t owork Dec 13 01:32:10 yeah, I saw your thread Dec 13 01:32:25 Im just trying to get it to work from chroot->maemo at a minimum heh Dec 13 01:32:43 routing audio to/from my computer would be bonus, I have that going on in my office anyway Dec 13 01:32:51 have 2 machines routing audio to a single box with speakers Dec 13 01:33:22 I would think it would be nice to be able to use it as a portable sound server. Dec 13 01:33:39 yeah, will kill your battery though Dec 13 01:33:45 Route audio from my computer to my sound system in the other room. Dec 13 01:34:01 constant data transfer is the worst power drain ive seen on the device Dec 13 01:34:10 particularly over 3g Dec 13 01:34:16 eh, just plug it in. Dec 13 01:38:55 46-9 is out? Dec 13 01:41:24 Is there an easy way to just load a html into fbreader? Dec 13 01:42:58 Arkenoi: link? Dec 13 01:44:28 http://maemos.ru/2009/11/29/portretnyj-rezhim-nokia-n900-v-novoj-proshivke/ just a rumor. video seems to be demonstrating famous "portrait mode bug" and irrelevant Dec 13 01:54:15 Arkenoi: No, 46-9 is not out. Dec 13 01:55:01 Arkenoi: That's not showing proper system-wide portrait either (the launcher and the panoramic desktops are truncated) Dec 13 02:26:24 wow Dec 13 02:26:27 pulse is a pig Dec 13 02:53:26 microlith: high cpu? **** ENDING LOGGING AT Sun Dec 13 02:59:57 2009