**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Fri Feb 12 02:59:56 2010 Feb 12 03:00:03 crashanddie: 6x4 pixels each square? Feb 12 03:00:10 no Feb 12 03:00:17 6 squares by 4 squares total Feb 12 03:00:35 Yeah, that's definitely not going to work when I need at least 20x20. Feb 12 03:00:44 zerojay: depends what you're trying to do Feb 12 03:00:58 Creating a game based on a grid. Feb 12 03:01:03 zerojay: just try it Feb 12 03:01:09 Yeah, I think I will. Feb 12 03:01:38 zerojay: show an image on screen, draw the grid dynamically, and highlight the squares you tap Feb 12 03:02:04 and just look up to which point you can select a specific point in the image accurately Feb 12 03:02:40 Yeah, I think I'm going to have to do a series of tests at different sizes to see how it works. Feb 12 03:05:57 crashanddie, silvermountain is such a prick. Feb 12 03:06:01 crashanddie, good show. :P Feb 12 03:07:21 A skilled or an idiotic gloved finger Feb 12 03:08:27 * N900evil goes to watch southpark episode on finger glove. Feb 12 03:08:40 s/g// Feb 12 03:09:18 finger glove? Feb 12 03:10:30 is "shan't" timeless-certified use of english?.. Feb 12 03:16:09 Ye- Feb 12 03:16:09 crashanddie: Why not use a simple drawing program for that? Feb 12 03:17:20 crashanddie: try to hit the crosshairs and see which radius the dots are Feb 12 03:17:50 then calculate (aka draw) the outer square Feb 12 03:20:32 ShadowJK: timeless isn't a good writer Feb 12 03:20:43 ShadowJK: he speaks american, hence his English is already flawed to begin with Feb 12 03:20:54 ShadowJK: he asked me to tag my blog as being "en-GB" Feb 12 03:21:53 multiplayer "Hearts" card game for N900? Feb 12 03:22:30 lol... silvermountain is sending hatemail in PM Feb 12 03:23:03 oi. people do odd things Feb 12 03:25:07 btw fellow N900 owners, how difficult is it to set up a network connection over Bluetooth between N900 and Ubuntu laptop? Feb 12 03:25:26 Doesn't you laptop have wifi? Feb 12 03:25:26 PAN? Feb 12 03:25:28 I want to do windows filesharing and see my shares on the laptop, but the laptop wifi must not be bothered Feb 12 03:25:44 Lumpio-: don't want to muck about with wifi settings Feb 12 03:25:54 aw Feb 12 03:26:10 DocScrutinizer: have you used PAN for a network link with Ubuntu? I tried for 10 minutes to research and do this, the result was not very progressive Feb 12 03:26:19 looking for some advice now Feb 12 03:26:42 http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=454840#post454840 Feb 12 03:27:23 oh hm, it's not in a package repo Feb 12 03:29:47 zerojay: some other mod deleted my response to silvermountain :( Feb 12 03:34:22 you must get him back Feb 12 03:34:27 lucent: aah this one even better: http://wiki.maemo.org/Fremantle_Unsupported_Bluetooth_profiles Feb 12 03:35:03 *yawn* Feb 12 03:35:08 DocScrutinizer: bless your heart, thank you for the help Feb 12 03:38:16 I'm confused, where is my Documents folder on the N900 filesystm Feb 12 03:38:28 am looking in /home/user/MyDocs it is not there apparently Feb 12 03:38:37 ...it's hidden Feb 12 03:38:39 .documents Feb 12 03:38:39 .documents Feb 12 03:38:49 Infact all the built-in directories are hidden for some bizarre reason Feb 12 03:38:53 standard linux Feb 12 03:39:10 all .files/directories are hidden from a standard listing Feb 12 03:39:16 try ls -a to see them Feb 12 03:39:19 oh huh Feb 12 03:39:25 got you there, I understand now Feb 12 03:39:32 Why are they hidden in the first place Feb 12 03:39:36 though it confuses me greatly - know why this is? Feb 12 03:39:41 again, standard linux convention Feb 12 03:39:47 .files tend to be config files Feb 12 03:39:54 stuff you dont' necessarily want/need to see Feb 12 03:40:06 and stuff you dont' want to accidentally fuck up in mass file operations Feb 12 03:40:18 so they are implicitly ignored in all mass operations Feb 12 03:40:40 easy to get used to. Feb 12 03:40:53 what doesn't make sense though Feb 12 03:40:57 is that it sits on a fat32 partition Feb 12 03:41:30 But .documents are something I definitely would like to see Feb 12 03:41:33 hah Feb 12 03:41:33 Hiding them makes no sense IMO Feb 12 03:41:37 *sigh* Feb 12 03:41:48 why they hid THOSE directories is a myster Feb 12 03:41:49 y Feb 12 03:41:50 naming them dot-something on fat32 is nonsense Feb 12 03:41:55 ...yeah Feb 12 03:41:57 crashanddie, lol. . . . Feb 12 03:41:59 im just telling you why its hidden Feb 12 03:42:07 crashanddie, PLEASE ban him. Feb 12 03:42:08 not WHY they hid them Feb 12 03:42:16 crashanddie, he's an idiotic little troll. Feb 12 03:42:18 I know how Linux works ¬_¬ Feb 12 03:43:09 it's interesting that Linux is a viable kernel for mobile computing devices vs. say FreeBSD or something Feb 12 03:43:23 (not related to previous remarks) Feb 12 03:43:32 dont' start that troll topic :P Feb 12 03:43:48 who's trolling Feb 12 03:43:53 I just heard this wonderful FLOSS weekly interview, Randal Schwartz interviewed self-proclaimed "FreeBSD Girl" Feb 12 03:43:55 no one, move along :P Feb 12 03:43:57 trollin' for gussy Feb 12 03:44:27 okay I'll get to the point, I'm impressed with the organic / chaotic way that Linux development happens Feb 12 03:44:31 it's just fascinating. Feb 12 03:44:37 kamui, emoticons are signposts for sarcasm Feb 12 03:46:16 hey guys, does it matter which user I effectively am when I do 'gconftool-2' ? Feb 12 03:46:30 can I be root is that any different outcome than just being user? Feb 12 03:48:51 you can try it and find out Feb 12 03:48:57 let us know Feb 12 03:49:54 The reason they're hidden is that the File Manager translates them Feb 12 03:51:59 yeah, as some product managers at Nokia thought it's *less* confusing to name /home/user/MyDocs "N900" in fileselector of gui apps. And /home/user/MyDocs/.documents "Documentos" or whatever matches your LOCALE Feb 12 03:52:28 kamui, silvermountain. He's an old troll. Feb 12 03:52:41 managers are brilliant Feb 12 03:53:19 everyone should be working under at least 3 managers for the benefit fo all Feb 12 03:53:33 that's not a bad idea, at least now that I've heard it explained in context Feb 12 03:53:51 even worse is the fact you got no (sane) means to access *any* files outside MyDocs or uSD card Feb 12 03:54:01 in GUI selector Feb 12 03:54:23 I don't have an issue with the restricted file manager really Feb 12 03:54:29 me neither Feb 12 03:54:36 DocScrutinizer: that bit me hard when I tried to use a Qt app "KeePassX" Feb 12 03:54:41 Atleast you don't have to pay extra to get access to files outside the user friendly zone Feb 12 03:54:43 but making the names confusing is broken Feb 12 03:54:45 DocScrutinizer: I had to launch it from commandline Feb 12 03:56:56 ShadowJK: actually you have. When you're a app developer that has to write his own fileselector to allow user to "send arbitrary files over BT" (petrovich) for example Feb 12 03:57:59 No I mean I as a user don't have to pay 25euro for some "PowerUser filemanager" crapware Feb 12 04:02:14 GeneralAntilles: I wish Feb 12 04:02:23 GeneralAntilles: sadly, I'm not a fully trusted mod Feb 12 04:02:32 crashanddie, :eyeroll: Feb 12 04:03:10 GeneralAntilles: I'd get my rights removed right away if I tried anything of the sorts Feb 12 04:03:25 GeneralAntilles: plus, you only become a supermod when your each 500 posts, bla bla bla Feb 12 04:03:37 crashanddie, where is that written down? Feb 12 04:03:47 crashanddie, get elected for Council and bring the place down. :P Feb 12 04:03:48 GeneralAntilles: in a PM from Reggie? Feb 12 04:03:59 That should be documented on the wiki. . . Feb 12 04:11:44 well I've veered off-topic, stumped how to share internet connection over bluetooth from Ubuntu Feb 12 04:12:10 running Ubuntu Karmic here in case one of you fine peoples knows the answer and pity me a clue how to do it :) Feb 12 04:59:27 can the diablo apt sources be added to the n900 without causing problems? Feb 12 05:02:18 doubt it Feb 12 05:02:30 why? Feb 12 05:06:50 Toba: no Feb 12 05:07:01 Toba: a few apps might run Feb 12 05:10:53 just wondering if i could get pysqlite running without having to try too hard Feb 12 05:11:03 but i don't want to mess up my n900 in the pursuit of lazyness Feb 12 05:21:02 <|R> is it normal to have the n900 ring super loudly while on silent profile? and not with the selected ringtone for that matter? (even in non-silent actually) Feb 12 05:21:34 <|R> I'm sure i've installed something stupid but with 110+ shortcuts, it's going to be hard to figure out ... :P Feb 12 05:21:50 |R: doing what while that? Feb 12 05:21:57 listen to music? Feb 12 05:21:57 <|R> nothing Feb 12 05:22:06 I've never seen it do that Feb 12 05:22:08 <|R> the phone is just there, charged, on the charger. Feb 12 05:22:38 <|R> when i get called over SIP at home, (it's on wifi connecter to asterisk) it goes super loudly into a generic ring Feb 12 05:23:05 no not normal Feb 12 05:24:06 <|R> anyway, SIP is borked until PR1.2 (#6936).. i may flash when that comes out, i'll test it tomorrow and see, i'd wake up people at this hour if i tested hehe :/ Feb 12 05:24:24 :) Feb 12 05:25:51 bug 6936 Feb 12 05:25:53 Bug https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=6936 Caller voice gets minced after some time when taking call via SIP Feb 12 05:27:46 <|R> facebook gets XMPP support, this is going to be a mess... when will they add email? Feb 12 05:33:38 |R: I don't care if it'll be a mess. It's a killer feature \o/ Feb 12 05:34:03 I'll be able to be logged in to facebook 24/7 ;) Feb 12 05:35:23 <|R> hehe Feb 12 05:35:35 <|R> and i'll be able to never login to it on the web actually haha ;) Feb 12 05:35:49 is it just me or is the n900 camera a total pile Feb 12 05:35:57 What's wrong? Feb 12 05:36:00 <|R> (I only have a stalker account, everything at off, and you still can't hide fan of !) Feb 12 05:36:05 lol Feb 12 05:36:12 focus is always @ infinity Feb 12 05:36:26 even after doing a set on it Feb 12 05:36:42 Haven't seen that problem. Feb 12 05:37:03 http://www.flickr.com/photos/konstantin/4350761004 like that Feb 12 05:37:30 konfoo, you realize the shutter has a half-step, right? Feb 12 05:37:36 yeah Feb 12 05:37:50 Then you're either doing it wrong or there's something wrong with your device. Feb 12 05:38:05 its doing it on two devices Feb 12 05:38:17 it seems to randomly set itself to infinity Feb 12 05:38:51 is the camera using a center point for focus or a matrix? Feb 12 05:38:56 Well, we know it works for some people. ;) http://www.flickr.com/photos/tigert/3970357641/ Feb 12 05:38:57 Center. Feb 12 05:39:01 Thus the bracket. . . . Feb 12 05:39:28 well, my dslrs have brackets as well Feb 12 05:39:34 but you can still set them to matrix Feb 12 05:39:41 Sure, but the N900 isn't a DSLR. :) Feb 12 05:39:51 did i say it was Feb 12 05:39:57 wtf just happened Feb 12 05:40:22 My N900 got completely stuck. Feb 12 05:41:41 konfoo: take a chill pill Feb 12 05:42:23 konfoo: the camera will certainly get better -- technically speaking we have free access to it Feb 12 05:42:44 Do we? Feb 12 05:43:08 Can we fix the horrible "noise reduction" it does? Feb 12 05:44:01 Bah. Had to reboot. Feb 12 05:44:15 noise reduction? what noise reduction? Feb 12 05:44:42 All (cheap) digital cameras do noise reduction Feb 12 05:45:01 I don't see noise-free images from my n900 Feb 12 05:45:09 guys, we're talking about a seriously small sensor Feb 12 05:45:17 villager: It doesn't mean it would be noise free. Feb 12 05:45:28 so as soon as we go over ISO200, you're going to have huge amounts of noise Feb 12 05:45:43 <|R> anyone finished hex-a-hop? :P Feb 12 05:46:05 we need to be able to set the shutter speed, and lower the ISO Feb 12 05:46:36 * ShadowJK always wondered if you could make a fake-longshutterspeed by taking several pictures and adding them together Feb 12 05:46:47 ShadowJK: nha, but you can do HDR Feb 12 05:46:48 any word on a possible N910? :-) Feb 12 05:46:51 But you can change the iso in the stock camera already? Feb 12 05:47:01 MiXu-: yeah, think so Feb 12 05:47:13 doesn't multiple exposures add up to a long exposure :-/ Feb 12 05:47:16 angasule: Nokia has promised the next Maemo device in 2010. Feb 12 05:47:30 I'm not complaining that the sensor has noise. I know the sensor has noise. Feb 12 05:47:48 But when you look at stuff like this: http://images.dailymobile.se/wp-content/uploads/2009/08/nokia-n900-camera-samples-03.jpg Feb 12 05:47:48 MiXu-: cool, thanks for the info :-D Feb 12 05:47:59 MiXu-: N900 + magnetometer would be neat Feb 12 05:48:07 That's not sensor noise. That's some horrible attempt to clean up the noise gone horribly awry. Feb 12 05:48:07 <|R> indeed Feb 12 05:48:10 <|R> biggest fail... Feb 12 05:48:12 derf: eww Feb 12 05:48:20 derf, note that the noise reduction has been tweaked since September. :) Feb 12 05:48:33 GeneralAntilles: Sure, that's just a URL I had handy. Feb 12 05:48:38 My images still look like that, though. Feb 12 05:48:39 ShadowJK: no, with proper HDR software you get very balanced pictures, nothing is overexposed Feb 12 05:49:14 crashanddie, I meant it from the point of view of two 100ms exposures adding up like a single 200ms exposure ;) Feb 12 05:49:18 but it probably adds noise Feb 12 05:49:39 morning Feb 12 05:49:40 crashanddie: shutter speed, would that be the exposure setting? Feb 12 05:52:19 ShadowJK: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/64/HDR_example_-_exposure.jpeg Feb 12 05:53:29 That example sucks. Feb 12 05:53:39 They'd've been better off just taking real pictures. Feb 12 05:55:51 mm Feb 12 05:56:03 gpodder cannot stream episodes anymore Feb 12 05:57:29 The comments on LWN about the security talk are funny. Feb 12 05:57:37 mediaplayer says "cannot find mediafile" Feb 12 05:58:02 * RST38h moos at all the presentr Feb 12 05:58:23 * RST38h managed to screw up the media player yesterday BTW Feb 12 05:58:53 Gave it an H264 encoded video, it said "cannot play" and then could not play any other video, even previously playable ones Feb 12 05:59:26 Hardkilling a bunch of gst processes seems to have cured it but still Feb 12 05:59:59 :) Feb 12 06:00:13 did this start after pr1.1? I forget Feb 12 06:00:56 No, it's been there for a while. Feb 12 06:03:16 hmm, so (since nobody's explaining it), I'm guessing that shutter speed is the exposure control, and that ISO is the gain control of the sensor? Feb 12 06:04:37 There's no actual shutter, is there :P Feb 12 06:05:21 it would have to be the digital equivalent... which, in my guess, is exposure Feb 12 06:06:24 yeah, I think so Feb 12 06:07:43 ShadowJK: I heard of this happening before 1.1 Feb 12 06:07:52 ShadowJK: And yes it still happens now Feb 12 06:08:00 MiXu: Know the bug number for this? Feb 12 06:10:18 ah finally a use for laser weaponry: http://gizmodo.com/5470148/this-is-a-mosquito-getting-killed-by-a-laser Feb 12 06:10:51 RST38h: It's a known issue Feb 12 06:11:05 creative nick Feb 12 06:11:08 hah Feb 12 06:11:15 good evening, all Feb 12 06:11:25 MiXu: Just wondering if anyone is working on it... Feb 12 06:13:18 RST38h: yeah, had that happen here as well Feb 12 06:13:28 RST38h: don't know what I tried to play, but suddenly even MP3 wouldn't go Feb 12 06:13:31 RST38h: had to reboot the device Feb 12 06:13:36 RST38h: I think so yes. I can't go into details. Feb 12 06:14:24 MiXu: thanks =) Feb 12 06:14:53 bloody hell, noobmonkey is such a twat Feb 12 06:14:56 crashanddie: Killing gst* processes appears to fix it, but a normal user would have to reboot indeed Feb 12 06:15:15 Meanwhile in the Commonwealth of Massachusetts: http://www.mass.gov/legis/bills/senate/186/st01/st01777.htm Feb 12 06:15:19 he'll go at great lengths to put enormous emounts of sarcasm in his posts, but won't bother adding a link to actually make it useful Feb 12 06:15:30 RST38h: feck off, I'm not a "normal user" Feb 12 06:16:19 RST38h: the only thing you did was force a re-read of the available codecs -- list that got corrupted due to a stack overflow when opening mp4 files with a specific codec Feb 12 06:16:51 :P Feb 12 06:18:50 crashanddie: same list that is hardcoded?= Feb 12 06:19:08 moorning konttori Feb 12 06:19:14 morning! Feb 12 06:20:40 RST38h: under what circumstances does it happen? maybe I have a similar problem... I reported my problem the bug tracker but not sure I really have a test case Feb 12 06:21:49 ShadowJK: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/64/HDR_example_-_exposure.jpeg <-- the pictures on the left and right extremities are the originals, the middle image is the HDR one Feb 12 06:21:58 * PhonoN900 still has not found a "view", in xchat, that allows me to see who is currently in the channel. Any suggestions? Feb 12 06:22:22 I can mess up the media player by playing 128K WMA over mms/rtsp or something and then losing the connection Feb 12 06:22:34 then I gotta reboot Feb 12 06:23:22 I has Facebook chat over XMPP! Feb 12 06:24:56 I has Facebook-free device, even better Feb 12 06:25:00 villager: usually a h264-encoded video it cant play Feb 12 06:25:48 phonon900: pull left edge Feb 12 06:26:26 RST38h: okay, maybe not same issue then... I'm just playing audio, and works for a while... Feb 12 06:27:27 RST38h: Awesome awesome stuff. Thanks for that Feb 12 06:33:00 villager, is there a bug report? Feb 12 06:33:37 ShadowJK: what, for my problem? Feb 12 06:33:50 hi, i might have a way how to make a n900 communicate with some electrical circuit... What about the jack and sound tones? You know, you can connect to the internet with telephone and tones... The sound frequency can be like voltage, we just need something that will translate the sound signal to electrical impulses...? Is it a stupid idea? Feb 12 06:34:12 ShadowJK: I reported mine as #8661 Feb 12 06:34:28 LuciusMare: thats basically how the fm reciever works Feb 12 06:35:41 except instead of passing that on to an audio output, you'd do further processing and whatnot Feb 12 06:36:06 oh. Feb 12 06:36:11 LuciusMare: ive been considering that approach for my own ir detector Feb 12 06:36:21 the n900 doesn't really connect to the internet with tones though... Feb 12 06:36:43 no no no, i meant like controlling servos, or somewhat Feb 12 06:37:17 s/ir detector/arduino Feb 12 06:37:59 oh, so you understood me, i just wasnt sure Feb 12 06:38:16 presumably you can assert a DC input/output on the sound chip that drives the headphone jack to give a signal, instead of necessarily using external circuitry to convert AC tones Feb 12 06:38:26 well, after i get my arduino, i will definitely try that ^^ Feb 12 06:38:44 LuciusMare: keep me posted ;) Feb 12 06:38:49 yes, of course, but no need to power the circuit from n900 anyway Feb 12 06:39:01 so thanks guys, gtg, bye Feb 12 06:40:12 http://pwnguin.net/albums/main.php?g2_itemId=47 Feb 12 06:40:17 i gotta say i like these jumper wires Feb 12 06:41:10 they're stranded copper soldered to solid core terminals Feb 12 06:48:25 wow, how fascinating, a picture of wires and a led Feb 12 06:48:30 that's not something you see every day Feb 12 06:50:53 i have a video of it where the led changes color :P Feb 12 06:52:08 pwnguin: your life must be thrilling Feb 12 06:52:18 some days Feb 12 06:52:46 badly lit, discolored picture of wires and a led made by a cell phone Feb 12 06:53:08 * RST38h giggles satanically Feb 12 06:53:31 * thresh waves Feb 12 06:53:38 discolored? Feb 12 06:54:12 badly lit, yes. noisy, yes. cell phone yes Feb 12 06:59:11 Someone needs to write a software that can be used to mass merge contacts Feb 12 06:59:25 Would be a nice feature in Hermes Feb 12 07:00:27 pwnguin: tiny little sensors often lose color saturation in bad lighting conditions Feb 12 07:00:37 pwnguin: Which is eactly what we see :) Feb 12 07:01:07 Someone needs to write a software that can be used for replacing every freaking 8 in my contacts with the proper +7 =) Feb 12 07:01:18 well Feb 12 07:01:36 do cell operators still report incoming numbers with 8? Feb 12 07:01:39 (and yes, I tried editing vcards database) Feb 12 07:01:52 thresh: I have got a really old address book. Feb 12 07:02:02 weird Feb 12 07:02:50 incoming calls from cell phones are +7 here, while those that were done with cable phones are reported with 8 Feb 12 07:03:14 thresh: As I said, a lot of my contacts are from 2001 or even a bit earlier Feb 12 07:03:40 yeah, i was mumbling on a side matter, not really related to yours Feb 12 07:09:50 Oh weird...N900 lost networking. Like, totally lost networking Feb 12 07:10:08 Looks like DHCP client has died Feb 12 07:18:16 RST38h: perl -pi -e "s/8/+7/g" addressbook-export-file ? :) Feb 12 07:18:26 with proper regexp of course Feb 12 07:18:29 then reimport? Feb 12 07:23:07 tigert: Yes but won't I get multiple contacts after reimport? Feb 12 07:23:24 * RST38h is kinda afraid of reimport =) Feb 12 07:23:56 ==> work Feb 12 07:26:03 freaky Feb 12 07:26:19 (the +7 vs 8 thing) Feb 12 07:30:06 RST38h: erase all before reimport? Feb 12 08:02:37 Morning :) Feb 12 08:02:58 morn Feb 12 08:04:55 :( Feb 12 08:05:09 anyone here remember the name of the company which offers MfE support? Feb 12 08:06:23 nuevasync Feb 12 08:10:48 hey Feb 12 08:12:38 I've converted mwv to mp4 using ffmpeg with default options only set smaller size. my resulting file is about 100M Feb 12 08:12:57 and it takes ages to open in media player Feb 12 08:13:28 i did not wait until it start playing Feb 12 08:13:53 might it be that i need to specify baseline coding for mp4? Feb 12 08:14:35 are there any peculiarities Feb 12 08:16:50 try with handbrake and some n900 preset users made for it Feb 12 08:24:17 http://www.engadget.com/2010/02/11/south-korean-iphone-users-turn-to-sausages-as-a-cold-weather-me/?s=t5 Feb 12 08:24:21 excellent Feb 12 08:25:55 still better than a stylus Feb 12 08:26:01 since you can eat it when you're done =) Feb 12 08:26:07 Yum Feb 12 08:26:08 and 100% biodegradable Feb 12 08:26:16 Makes using iPhone 100% more fun Feb 12 08:50:42 http://lwn.net/SubscriberLink/373780/1b98fb582ab0249c/ Feb 12 08:51:30 ...open mode, the user cannot run DRM-protected software purchased from the Ovi Store or play music bought from the Nokia Comes With Music store... Feb 12 08:51:44 who cares about Music store now? Feb 12 08:52:16 rmrfchik: And then you can probably also not play games like Angrybirds anymore. Feb 12 08:54:18 I'm not so worried about the kernel, but the access control will kill the platform Feb 12 08:54:53 "So the main goal of Nokia's engineers was to create a lightweight system on top of existing Linux security mechanisms, while having to make the smallest possible change to existing applications. The Maemo 6 security system starts from the principle of least privilege: every application should be able to access only a limited set of needed resources" Feb 12 08:54:57 X-Fade: you mean, games I bought. Who cares now to buy games? Feb 12 08:55:08 basically, Symbian Capabilities meets Maemo Feb 12 08:55:08 rmrfchik: No, also gratis games. Feb 12 08:55:14 gratis? Feb 12 08:55:19 free Feb 12 08:55:26 rmrfchik: Free as in no charge. Feb 12 08:55:40 asj_: what i've seen of it, it is really a security framework i would want on my PC as well. Feb 12 08:55:44 maemo will not able to run j2me? Feb 12 08:55:50 and i'm paranoid about this kind of stuff normally. Feb 12 08:55:54 Stskeeps: you ever worked with symbian? Feb 12 08:55:59 rmrfchik: don't be thick Feb 12 08:56:09 i am Feb 12 08:56:10 asj_: briefly, and nothing of this reminds me of symbian capab in implementation. Feb 12 08:56:21 rmrfchik: of course j2me will work on maemo 6 Feb 12 08:56:39 asj_: In symbian capablities were awarded per developer. Now it is per repository. Feb 12 08:56:42 crashanddie: so, why in opensource mode i will not able to run free games? Feb 12 08:57:01 Stskeeps: sure, look at this line "but components like cellular functionality or location information will be on that list. The former should be protected because misuse could harm the device, while the latter should be protected because misuse could cause harm to the user." -- until recently location was not on the list of 5 self grantable privs,that only change 8mo ago. Feb 12 08:57:06 asj_: So as long as Extras has the capabilities, we can assign them to your app. Feb 12 08:57:07 Ive got problems to ping (or ssh) to my N900. It works only if I start a shell on my N900 and ping some other host Feb 12 08:57:10 asj_: you can edit your own security policy. Feb 12 08:57:18 rmrfchik: the writer of the article did a pretty poor job at understanding the principle Feb 12 08:59:01 ...in the open mode, which gives them the capability to define their own security policy. Feb 12 08:59:10 X-Fade: and wihch capabilities will the extra's repo have? ReadUsrData, WriteUserData, Location, NetworkServices? :) Feb 12 08:59:17 if I get .jar I will able to run it. will i? Feb 12 08:59:31 rmrfchik: stop thinking about bleending jar files Feb 12 08:59:37 rmrfchik: who gives a damn about jar files? Feb 12 08:59:41 asj_: my best argument for the need for this stuff is the fact it is probably possible for a random extras app to explode your battery or overwrite my NOLO. Feb 12 08:59:49 asj_: The idea is to have most, yes. Feb 12 09:00:05 X-Fade: that's not most Feb 12 09:00:17 asj_: No, but also cell etc. Feb 12 09:00:28 rmrfchik: my understanding is that people who run the Open system will be able to run any kernel/OS they want. At least this is how Elena has been explaining it to me. If you choose to opt in on the Nokia kernel, you will get all the tools and utilities needed to use DRM-protected content, or install DRM protected apps Feb 12 09:01:03 rmrfchik: if however, you choose to run another OS, there is no guarantee (alas, from Nokia) that the software and content will work; unless the OS/kernel implements the required packages to read it Feb 12 09:01:03 so, who cares about DRM protected apps now? Feb 12 09:01:36 rmrfchik: DRM is just a sideeffect. it's what attracts most people's eyes to the thing, but the good thing is really in the framework itself. Feb 12 09:01:39 Stskeeps: and you do have a point there, but the same argument can be made about linux for the last 18 years Feb 12 09:01:53 I considered to buy something. But not now. Now i think to dump maemo in favor of android. Feb 12 09:01:53 rmrfchik: It depends on what is being done with the default apps though. Feb 12 09:02:19 rmrfchik: android has exactly the same thing Feb 12 09:02:20 asj_: linux wasn't exactly made for mobile devices that are more promiscious than a slutty american girl getting introduced to european drinking.. Feb 12 09:02:25 rmrfchik: are you the same troll as yesterday? Feb 12 09:02:33 i different one Feb 12 09:02:42 but still a troll, thanks for admitting it Feb 12 09:03:01 Stskeeps: no, it's made to be on the front line of the internet with 4 billion infected windows machines knockking on the door ;) Feb 12 09:03:11 crashanddie: sure. being a troll allows me to get info Feb 12 09:03:12 ;) Feb 12 09:03:43 crashanddie: android is the same thing but it don't pretend to be open Feb 12 09:03:52 rmrfchik: I'll say the same as yesterday: You do *not* understand the principle, you do *not* understand the consequences, and you definitely don't *understand* the basic advantages. If you can't look past the most obvious points Feb 12 09:04:08 then how about you just sod off? Feb 12 09:04:28 learn to think, for crying out loud Feb 12 09:04:30 rmrfchik: how is open anything but being able to run your own kernel, disable drm, use the chip to your own advantage? :P Feb 12 09:04:46 crashanddie: oh, c'mon. My point is such: maemo6 will open doors for DRM-lovely developers, so they will start to write stuff for maemo6 Feb 12 09:04:56 rmrfchik: and? Feb 12 09:05:01 X-Fade: btw, symbian has 20 different capabilities, or which just to use an example Qt uses 19 ;) Feb 12 09:05:02 and this stuff will not run on maemo5 Feb 12 09:05:08 rmrfchik: and? Feb 12 09:05:25 so, why the hell I need maemo5? i don't. so, dump it. Feb 12 09:05:26 next. Feb 12 09:05:29 asj_: We should get all relevant ones. Feb 12 09:05:32 so any OSS project with a scope similar to Qt is basically dead on symbian if it weren't owned by Nokia Feb 12 09:05:41 rmrfchik: you don't, but we use it, so fuck off? Feb 12 09:05:53 I pretty sure, opensource mode will have a lot ot restrictions Feb 12 09:05:59 rmrfchik: like what? Feb 12 09:06:05 asj_: Be assured I'm taking to the right people already. Feb 12 09:06:12 Stskeeps: unsupported API Feb 12 09:06:27 u'll see it ;) Feb 12 09:06:29 rmrfchik: such as? Feb 12 09:06:45 opengl/es, motion senser, u name it Feb 12 09:06:49 or GPS Feb 12 09:06:57 rmrfchik: that has nothing to do with the TPM Feb 12 09:06:59 "sorry, GPS driver is avail only in DRM mode" Feb 12 09:07:10 rmrfchik: I'm working on a bloody prototype you idiot, we're miles away from there Feb 12 09:07:39 crashanddie: being a troll, I don't fuck you. be some polite. Feb 12 09:07:41 crashanddie: tone it down a bit please ;) Feb 12 09:08:04 sure Feb 12 09:08:35 rmrfchik: my main argument against that happening is that well, if you can run your own kernel, how on earth are they going to limit your access.. Feb 12 09:08:40 if platform allow to be controlled by vendor -- be sure, they will control it Feb 12 09:09:11 crashanddie: I'm trying to keep it a at least a PG rating ;) Feb 12 09:09:13 Stskeeps: heh, n810 has 3d hardware. where the fuck is driver? Ah... it closed. Feb 12 09:09:17 http://developer.symbian.org/wiki/index.php/Capabilities_%28Symbian_Signed%29 -- a good link for symbian capabilities if anyone is interested. To write a screen saver for the OLED N85 I had you required: LocalService,ReadUserData,WriteUserData,PowerMgmt,ReadDeviceData,WriteDeviceData,SwEvent,NetworkControl or something like that. Feb 12 09:09:32 rmrfchik: heh, now you are talking to the right person :) Feb 12 09:09:41 Stskeeps: you think maemo6 hw will be opened for your kernel? Feb 12 09:09:44 rmrfchik: not true. open source kernel driver, closed source lib (waiting for upload to TI extranet) Feb 12 09:09:53 rmrfchik: maemo5 kernel is fully open source. Feb 12 09:10:18 waiting... I rember old days with zaurus. When some usefull soft comes to it, zaurus was dead. Feb 12 09:10:19 rmrfchik: you do realise that people are running ubuntu on the N900, right? Feb 12 09:10:40 Stskeeps: and what about hardware? maemo6 will run on it's own pjone Feb 12 09:10:47 asj_: Capabilities will be detected automatically in the SDK. Feb 12 09:10:54 crashanddie: with maemo5, which IS os Feb 12 09:10:58 asj_: No need to request anything manually. Feb 12 09:11:02 opensource, I mean Feb 12 09:11:18 rmrfchik: you're wrong on quite a few points, I'm sad to say Feb 12 09:11:29 show me Feb 12 09:11:30 anything new/interesting announced in scrollback? :| Feb 12 09:11:45 pupnik: no, just screaming Feb 12 09:12:51 ok, I have to go now. be the peace with you, guys ;) (will troll a bit later) Feb 12 09:13:09 rmrfchik: basically, each device has its own keys, having access to the keys enables you to run and play games and music that you bought from the Ovi store. In order to have access to the keys, you need to authenticate to the HSM, and the only way to do that is by running an authorised kernel. Feb 12 09:13:33 X-Fade: right, I saw that, but presumably is the repo doesn't provide it your app doesn't get compiled and added. So let's see extras doesn't qualifiy for location since you can report nasty things to google/stalk your gf, etc. No one writes gps enabled apps anymore. More realistic is ReadDeviceData where you try and read /proc to override the camera button to provide tast swithing. Sorry not allowed. Or you want access to the system dbus. Feb 12 09:13:35 bzzt rejected. Feb 12 09:14:11 asj_: best way to ask about intentions is to go talk to the people implementing it. Feb 12 09:14:11 but you can load kernel modules into an authorised kernel, right crashanddie ? Feb 12 09:14:16 they're -very- reasonable people. Feb 12 09:14:18 asj_: Yes, simple things like that should really not happen. Feb 12 09:14:21 pupnik: sure Feb 12 09:14:30 nice Feb 12 09:14:31 asj_: and they are out in the open and taking questions Feb 12 09:14:49 pupnik: well, if you have a personalised OS/kernel from a network operator, they might limit you Feb 12 09:14:56 right Feb 12 09:14:58 asj_: Only very high level capabilities might be an issue. Feb 12 09:14:59 pupnik: however a stock Nokia device that you paid in full should be fine Feb 12 09:15:16 crashanddie: loading kernel modules is a bit of an attack vector though, for a DRM kernel :P Feb 12 09:15:24 Stskeeps: not really Feb 12 09:15:30 X-Fade: you think they learnt from symbian caps? ;) Feb 12 09:15:42 Stskeeps: the most important stuff happens in hardware, not software, so whatever accesses the hardware is irrelevant Feb 12 09:15:46 crashanddie: intercepting encrypt/decrypt requests? :) Feb 12 09:15:53 asj_: Look like they take a more minimal approach this time. Feb 12 09:15:58 Stskeeps: tell me the right people, I'll email them as well :) Feb 12 09:16:06 asj_: hang on for finding the current threads Feb 12 09:17:02 http://wiki.maemo.org/Maemo_security Feb 12 09:17:22 http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=43627&highlight=fosdem Feb 12 09:17:26 Stskeeps: not entirely convinced by that argument. I yet have to see a smartcard be compromised through software Feb 12 09:17:47 crashanddie: fair enough Feb 12 09:17:55 Stskeeps: plus, don't forget that Aegis will limit what is able to happen, so they could full well prevent anything but specific memory bits to access the HSM, if required Feb 12 09:18:49 X-Fade: I do realise the channel should be PG, but my patience grows thin with these kind of idiots Feb 12 09:20:08 Stskeeps: thanks :) Feb 12 09:22:35 asj_: one very important thing i've had to learn about maemoians within nokia is the fact that maemo started as a research project and still has this open spirit. i've caught myself thinking them more 'evil' and 'calculating' than they were and being positively surprised. Feb 12 09:22:57 Stskeeps: it's not the maemoans that I'm worried about Feb 12 09:37:57 hi Feb 12 09:43:56 heya jose_manrique Feb 12 09:48:01 has anybody tried a 2.6.31 kernel in an n900? Feb 12 09:52:22 I would love too, but I can't turn off DRM ;) Feb 12 09:52:32 * asj_ stops trolling Feb 12 09:52:47 mytube runs great on pc. lets me see the youtubes without installing flash Feb 12 09:53:02 what does it use instead? Feb 12 09:53:08 mplayer Feb 12 09:53:50 ok Feb 12 09:54:28 i think it should go into debian upstream. Feb 12 09:55:22 debian already has multiple youtube downloads, epiphany/firefox extension etc. Feb 12 09:56:00 apt-cache search youtube | wc -l Feb 12 09:56:00 16 Feb 12 10:10:17 so what Feb 12 10:10:19 "How can so much stupidity fit in one head? I think Seagate or WesternDigital should study such compression techniques." Feb 12 10:10:25 none of them do what mytube does Feb 12 10:13:23 Morning, all Feb 12 10:13:43 which is: let you search, browse and download youtubes with previews from a gui Feb 12 10:13:49 GeneralAntilles: Indeed. More volunteers all round would be good (and some of the ones we've got are fairly quiet in terms of contributions) Feb 12 10:14:21 Is there any package for installing less(1) on maemo? Feb 12 10:15:24 in devel Feb 12 10:15:51 (or tools? .. forgot, but i have it installed for sure) Feb 12 10:16:30 cehteh: Ok, I'll have a look again, though I thought I checked it already. Feb 12 10:16:57 http://mer-project.blogspot.com/2010/01/dual-booting-mer-on-nokia-n900.html Feb 12 10:17:08 (It's a tough name to search for...) Feb 12 10:17:58 woops its even in the main repo by now? Feb 12 10:18:33 Hm... "apt-cache search less | grep less" doesn't find it. Feb 12 10:18:40 dov Feb 12 10:18:42 http://lumiera.pastebin.ca/1794449 Feb 12 10:19:46 Thanks. Feb 12 10:29:48 Hi, what is /usr/sbin/anim-shower for? Feb 12 10:29:57 old tool i think Feb 12 10:30:20 no animated showers? :( Feb 12 10:33:50 xev in x11-utils is broken. It doesn't take keyboard focus to the xev window. Feb 12 10:34:21 : Feb 12 10:34:23 :1 Feb 12 10:35:03 Error: Can't open display: :1 Feb 12 10:36:00 http://blip.tv/file/3209258 <- Mer 0.17 with 3d acceleration on N900 Feb 12 10:36:31 In what directory is the Contact DB stored? I still haven't sync'd my phone. Feb 12 10:37:32 Stskeeps: cool Feb 12 10:37:46 Stskeeps: Nice. Feb 12 10:38:16 Stskeeps: Nice Sith look going on btw in the reflection :) Feb 12 10:38:48 X-Fade: yeah :P Feb 12 10:38:57 * asj_ doesn't understand hoodies ;) Feb 12 10:39:04 it's cold here. Feb 12 10:39:12 wearing one now too. Feb 12 10:39:15 Stskeeps: where are you? Feb 12 10:39:29 asj_: poland. Feb 12 10:39:44 hoodies are cool Feb 12 10:40:04 Stskeeps: ah, you guys have had a rough winter there too? Feb 12 10:40:19 asj_: -25 C and a lot of snow Feb 12 10:40:19 :P Feb 12 10:40:25 (well, not right now -25 C but earlier) Feb 12 10:41:12 Stskeeps: well it Feb 12 10:41:19 Stskeeps: well it's +25c here ;) Feb 12 10:42:04 Oh how nice would it be to have that here. Can't wait for the summer. Feb 12 10:43:00 it Feb 12 10:43:09 it'll be there soon enough Feb 12 10:45:53 eh, people reporting that they received Pandoras in the mail? :P Feb 12 10:46:50 I think they've sent them out to some developers Feb 12 10:47:34 @Craigix sez: "Another batch of Pandoras made from the last case samples shipped to devs today." Feb 12 10:47:59 pandora? Feb 12 10:48:31 asj_: a handheld gaming device Feb 12 10:48:35 ah Feb 12 10:48:53 asj_: open source, Linux-based, hardware based on Beagle Board, I think Feb 12 10:48:57 http://www.open-pandora.org/ Feb 12 10:49:20 thanks fragment Feb 12 10:49:21 "same" hardware as in N900 Feb 12 10:49:46 wow, that makes the n900 look non brick like ;) Feb 12 10:50:18 omg ugly Feb 12 10:50:37 truely designed by engineers Feb 12 10:50:49 =) Feb 12 10:50:59 look where the space bar is ;) Feb 12 10:51:58 What? Pandora shipping already? Or have the founders been finally arrested for fraud? Feb 12 10:52:07 it is basically made for engineers Feb 12 10:52:12 RST38h: not yet Feb 12 10:52:21 * RST38h facepalms slightly Feb 12 10:52:38 RST38h: probably after Chinese new year Feb 12 10:52:55 Designed by engineers, for engineers, to be produced by engineers, and sold by engineers to engineers, but not for very long Feb 12 10:53:33 the design is pretty nuts Feb 12 10:53:47 pekuja: there is no design Feb 12 10:54:03 it is a used soap box with some buttons, spraypainter black Feb 12 10:54:12 it's like they had a meeting: "ok, which features should we put in?" "all of them" Feb 12 10:54:28 yeah, well I basically mean the feature set Feb 12 10:54:38 well, Maemo Devices also seem to have had a meeting like that, but it did not lead to a used soap box Feb 12 10:54:39 it's like they just put everything in it that they could possibly think of Feb 12 11:00:56 still wouldn't mind having one ;) Feb 12 11:04:14 possible to manually create the deb file? Feb 12 11:05:01 the applications is just one executable. Feb 12 11:05:11 yes Feb 12 11:06:42 pupnik_ : ok, thx for answering this question above, how about this one -- how exactly ? ;) Feb 12 11:07:00 the* Feb 12 11:09:29 felipe`: ping Feb 12 11:09:31 why do you want to make a deb Feb 12 11:11:13 pupnik_ : to be able to add a shortcut to it to the desktop Feb 12 11:11:24 * satmd had more funny ideas: lock the n900 so an alarm goes off when disconnected from usb Feb 12 11:11:41 the command exec widget is giving me lots of problems Feb 12 11:11:44 nice Feb 12 11:12:15 I just lack the free time currently Feb 12 11:12:24 a .deb is an ar archive containing control, data. Feb 12 11:13:01 extract an existing deb with ar command Feb 12 11:14:03 pupnik_ : found a good article, let me read it and i'll come back to you if all else fails. Feb 12 11:15:58 does someone use an msn plugin here? Feb 12 11:16:49 msn pecan Feb 12 11:16:57 I use the pecan also, but not on daily basis. Feb 12 11:17:06 i installed msn pecan yesterday Feb 12 11:17:30 and my battery was completely drained this morning Feb 12 11:17:42 BluesLee: It's because of the MSN protocol Feb 12 11:17:47 It's shit for mobile use Feb 12 11:17:51 yeah dont use it 24/7 Feb 12 11:18:00 samew with facebook widget Feb 12 11:18:06 it polls continuously Feb 12 11:18:10 hehe, i used it 5 minutes, just to test it Feb 12 11:18:18 i turned off wifi Feb 12 11:18:21 so no wonder you ran out of batt Feb 12 11:18:39 sure your gprs/edge/3g wasnt on? Feb 12 11:18:51 and i was sure that it shutdown the device Feb 12 11:18:58 ifreq: sure Feb 12 11:19:00 use jabber and use a msn transport... let the server handle the nasty protocols ;) Feb 12 11:19:05 or did it left you with msn trying to connect into mtework Feb 12 11:19:05 Battery-eye is a nice piece of software for checking the power consumption. Feb 12 11:19:21 i disablw msn account when i dont use it Feb 12 11:19:27 me too Feb 12 11:19:35 MiXu-: yes, i checke it with battery-eye (great tool) Feb 12 11:19:48 I just wish it updated itself :) Feb 12 11:19:53 heh Feb 12 11:20:12 do you use the latest version from testing? Feb 12 11:20:17 y Feb 12 11:20:27 Yeah Feb 12 11:20:37 maybe i retry it Feb 12 11:20:49 just disable acc when no use Feb 12 11:21:26 oki doki, i forgot that, nevertheless when going offline with wifi it shouldnt do anything Feb 12 11:21:50 MiXu-: it only shows battery level Feb 12 11:21:55 MiXu-: not power consumption Feb 12 11:21:59 jacekowski: I know Feb 12 11:21:59 ok doesnt really seem to make sense Feb 12 11:22:20 But it's pretty easy to look at the graph and figure out the consumption as well. Feb 12 11:22:51 It would be easy to derive the consumption from the readings it gets, so maybe in the next version :) Feb 12 11:23:00 not really Feb 12 11:23:08 battery isn't linear Feb 12 11:23:14 and it's not accurate enough Feb 12 11:23:19 esspecialy with GSM working Feb 12 11:23:25 pupnik_ : i've extracted a deb file a moment ago and just found the files that needed to be extracted, in the form of /usr/bin/file ... Feb 12 11:23:32 as it transmists 8 times per second with full 2W power Feb 12 11:23:34 is it that simple ? Feb 12 11:23:41 you need something really fast for it Feb 12 11:23:56 extracted with what Tronx Feb 12 11:24:05 ar or dpkg Feb 12 11:24:22 How do I use the PC Suite Mode when connected to a Linux laptop? Feb 12 11:24:39 some tool i found called anytoiso Feb 12 11:24:52 windows applications. Feb 12 11:24:54 ptl: ifconfig usb0 Feb 12 11:24:55 learn to use ar Feb 12 11:25:02 ok Feb 12 11:25:24 jacekowski: It doesn't have to be accurate. Average consumption is good enough for me. Feb 12 11:25:25 Hi linuxoids! Feb 12 11:25:35 asj_: oh, it's just a point-to-point network connection? Anyway, what I meant was, what program do I use to synchronize contacts, todos and so on? Feb 12 11:25:48 I've done power measuring stuff and it's not even possible to make accurate measurements by software. Feb 12 11:25:49 ptl: it does more than that Feb 12 11:25:57 i'm changing operator and i've inserted the new operator's sim. Is it normal that N900 says "Sim card registration failed"? Feb 12 11:26:01 You need separate hardware for that. Feb 12 11:26:16 the new sim _should_ work by now Feb 12 11:26:21 cos^: Yes. Your new sim doesn't work yet. Feb 12 11:26:23 cos^: Then the sim is not activated yet. Feb 12 11:26:32 asj_: what does it do, which software do I use? Feb 12 11:26:42 ptl: Nokia PC Suite Feb 12 11:26:44 Tronx: see this https://synthesize.us/HOWTO_make_a_deb_archive_without_dpkg Feb 12 11:26:49 for Linux? Feb 12 11:26:53 ok.. maybe i'll just wait and keep rebooting Feb 12 11:26:55 I am on a Linux laptop Feb 12 11:27:00 I don't even have Windows Feb 12 11:27:09 ptl: that excersize is left to the student Feb 12 11:27:09 ok thx Feb 12 11:27:10 brb Feb 12 11:27:19 cos^: I think it tries automatically. No need to reboot. Feb 12 11:27:32 asj_: I am asking the answer to that exercise ;) Feb 12 11:27:34 gnokii, maybe? Feb 12 11:27:37 MiXu-: is there also an irc plugin for conversations? Feb 12 11:27:39 ptl: you'll have to use something like mfe or syncml Feb 12 11:28:32 BluesLee: there is, I didn't use it yet, but you can download that plugin Feb 12 11:28:40 [patola@ubuntola bittornado]% apt-cache search mfe Feb 12 11:28:40 vdmfec - recover lost blocks using Forward Error Correction Feb 12 11:28:45 mfe? couldn't find it Feb 12 11:32:17 what's mfe, asj_ ? Feb 12 11:32:26 ptl: mail for exchange Feb 12 11:32:42 mail for exchange? On Linux? Feb 12 11:32:43 maybe there's a linux client? Feb 12 11:33:07 you can sync to google via nueva sync then back to linux easy enough Feb 12 11:33:09 I am a complete alien to the windows world Feb 12 11:33:14 haven't used it for years Feb 12 11:33:20 hehe Feb 12 11:33:38 ok Feb 12 11:35:01 I'll remap my keyboard Feb 12 11:35:28 evolution can sync with exchange servers. Feb 12 11:37:32 I know but I haven't used evolution for about 3 years, and I never used exchange sync Feb 12 11:38:37 hey BluesLee Feb 12 11:38:56 BluesLee: why does your nickname seem familiar? (and don't say martial arts) Feb 12 11:38:56 hey crashanddie, ho r u? Feb 12 11:39:15 X-Fade: btw, carsten@maemo.org doesn't seem to work Feb 12 11:39:23 Stskeeps: it's a conspiracy Feb 12 11:39:55 Stskeeps: Hmm let me check. Feb 12 11:40:08 crashanddie: i am not sure but you tried to convince me that i should call nokia support after removing the "useless" mac os directory in /home:-) Feb 12 11:40:42 or was it someone else? Feb 12 11:40:47 I told you to call nokia support? Feb 12 11:41:00 doubt it, however I do remember something about mac os, so may have been part of the conversation Feb 12 11:41:01 Stskeeps: Works fine from the logs? Check your gmail? Feb 12 11:41:16 X-Fade: hmm, got that one Feb 12 11:41:20 * Stskeeps tests something Feb 12 11:42:44 crashanddie: i was wrong, that was someone else ... but we discussed something in the past, i dont remember what Feb 12 11:44:28 does someone knows the app iqnotes? Feb 12 11:44:39 or qtdiary? Feb 12 11:45:32 i miss something like that, hierachical notes app and a diary app Feb 12 11:48:11 iqnotes... old qtopia times Feb 12 11:49:16 BluesLee: try Conboy. it is not hierarchical but linkable notes Feb 12 11:49:39 hrw: your name remembers of a guy in poland Feb 12 11:49:54 BluesLee: /whois hrw Feb 12 11:50:30 hrw: ahh ... i was formerly known as malik (zaurus times) Feb 12 11:51:16 hrw: i wrote as message in your blog concerning the lack of a good gps app Feb 12 11:51:38 I know Feb 12 11:51:58 hrw: if navit would be more stable it would be my first choice Feb 12 11:52:15 its much more usable on the neo freerunner Feb 12 11:55:08 BluesLee: please... do not mention openmoko devices... I have 2x neo1973 and do not like any Feb 12 11:56:03 1973 ... they are pretty old then Feb 12 11:56:38 mikhas: I got them 3 years ago or sth like that. I was part of 'so called' Phase0 developers Feb 12 11:57:15 hrw: i will give away my zaurus sl3100 tomorrow, good old times Feb 12 11:58:34 never had 3100. I had 5500 (gave to Thomas Kunze for 2.6 porting), c760 (got as donation, still have). for some time I also had 5600, 6000L, 3000 which were OpenEmbedded project devices. Feb 12 11:58:48 best combo would be c760 with sl-6000l screen Feb 12 11:59:27 the screen of the tosa was really great Feb 12 12:00:13 and it was great as a gameboy replacement Feb 12 12:01:35 nevertheless, the n900 is the device of our choice and the best so far Feb 12 12:03:29 each device has own lacks Feb 12 12:03:48 nokia tablets lack accessible serial port which was great to have in Zaurus Feb 12 12:04:15 ok, have to go - bb in ~1h Feb 12 12:08:37 hrw|gone: why you would need serial port in it? Feb 12 12:08:52 hrw|gone: use can use usb->serial converter in n800 and n810 Feb 12 12:09:09 hrw|gone: and it will probably be possible in n900 in future Feb 12 12:21:55 zerojay: ping? Feb 12 12:23:47 crashanddie, ping Feb 12 12:23:57 VDVsx: pong Feb 12 12:24:10 VDVsx: Bugtracker and description checks deployed. Feb 12 12:24:20 crashanddie, merge request: http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=44156 and http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=44114 Feb 12 12:24:22 :D Feb 12 12:24:27 bastard Feb 12 12:24:30 X-Fade, cool :) Feb 12 12:25:42 crashanddie, one of the disadvantages of being available on irc :D Feb 12 12:25:58 VDVsx: You have reached the automated reply bot for "crashanddie", who is not available at the moment. Please leave a /msg after the beep. Feb 12 12:27:10 :D Feb 12 12:27:13 done Feb 12 12:28:05 Umm, can anyone tell me if ScummVM and DRNokSnes can be installed on N900 and if they're stable? Feb 12 12:28:52 Roaziel: yes and yes Feb 12 12:29:11 crashanddie, thanks :) Feb 12 12:33:09 X-Fade, cool: "Warning: This package does not have the required bugtracker link specified!" ;) Feb 12 12:40:58 Any instruction manual I can read for installing ScummVM and DRNokSnes on N900? :P Feb 12 12:42:56 Roaziel, these apps are in Extras-devel repository at least Feb 12 12:46:58 Roaziel: talk.maemo.org gaming threads have extensive discussions on those programs Feb 12 12:57:57 extras-devel ? :S.. but they crashanddie said they were stable. Are Extra-devel apps usually umm, waiting to be confirmed as stable? Feb 12 12:59:30 devel -> testing -> stable Feb 12 12:59:48 depending on the willing of risking breakage, willing of testing or the no-risk option Feb 12 13:04:12 Are there any 3rd party batteries superior to the Nokia BP-5L for N900? Feb 12 13:04:24 besides the double sized mugen Feb 12 13:04:56 nokia one is the best Feb 12 13:05:09 it's just about physical limit of battery Feb 12 13:05:30 I need some help on scratchbox and maemo 5 sdk, I cant install base-passwd package because a error on update-passwd Feb 12 13:05:31 i use atom power Feb 12 13:05:54 ifreq: everyone does Feb 12 13:06:14 i'm using diesel power Feb 12 13:06:37 ( no mains electricity for 3rd day already ) Feb 12 13:06:37 nuclears ftw Feb 12 13:07:04 I use fusion. Feb 12 13:07:14 diesel ftw Feb 12 13:07:27 also sacrifying virgins helps Feb 12 13:08:29 np: Prodigy - Diesel power. Feb 12 13:10:58 pupnik, i saw something about an extended battery Feb 12 13:12:13 A second battery doubles the capacity :) That is how I do it when I go away to somewhere where I don't have power for a really long time. Feb 12 13:13:00 ok i buy originals then Feb 12 13:13:31 ifreq: p-11B cycle FTW! Feb 12 13:13:45 pupnik_: Just put a few in your bag ;) They are so light, you don't notice it. Feb 12 13:14:01 yeah and i lost one :) Feb 12 13:14:05 bag? what's that? Feb 12 13:14:16 or maybe it is in a pocket somewhere :) Feb 12 13:14:28 pupnik_: yeah, light also has it's downsides. Feb 12 13:14:44 thresh: Or pocket. Together with your keys :D Feb 12 13:14:56 http://i.imgur.com/59V2r.jpg Feb 12 13:14:57 ;> Feb 12 13:15:00 SFW. Feb 12 13:15:57 wow +5 insightful Feb 12 13:20:11 yay my second n900 should be here on monday Feb 12 13:23:14 second? Feb 12 13:23:25 my first one broke Feb 12 13:23:32 how? Feb 12 13:23:41 the usb port came out when i was unplugging it Feb 12 13:23:52 oh Feb 12 13:23:58 yeah -.- Feb 12 13:24:09 free repair? Feb 12 13:24:27 free replace Feb 12 13:24:37 <3 newegg Feb 12 13:25:30 even if sometimes they're not the cheapest , its worth it for the custommer support Feb 12 13:25:49 though when i orginnally bought it, dell was the only cheaper place selling the n900 Feb 12 13:26:45 some intrepid hacker should find a 3rd party lcd that can attach to the n900 board Feb 12 13:27:01 Why? :) Feb 12 13:27:28 so we can maked little n900 netbooks as hobbyists Feb 12 13:27:35 haha Feb 12 13:27:39 that would be awesome Feb 12 13:29:18 maybe for n900 push Feb 12 13:30:28 where is the call log hidden on the N900 Feb 12 13:30:29 :o Feb 12 13:30:41 in the phone application Feb 12 13:31:06 ah Feb 12 13:31:07 * Arif looks Feb 12 13:31:39 * Arif still thinks S60 style Feb 12 13:31:40 :D Feb 12 13:32:15 There's only one thing I miss from S60. Sportstracker. Feb 12 13:32:39 I miss some media player features Feb 12 13:32:41 e-coach? :P Feb 12 13:32:54 like when I press back in now playing Feb 12 13:32:58 the currently playing song was selected Feb 12 13:33:11 Stskeeps: eCoach doesn't have a nice web portal to complement it. Feb 12 13:33:30 MiXu-: yet... Feb 12 13:33:42 In many other ways eCoach is better Feb 12 13:34:02 I think too that eCoach is great Feb 12 13:34:10 had no problem with it so far, and use it a lot Feb 12 13:34:14 hi Feb 12 13:34:23 hi Feb 12 13:34:31 jacekowski: I do not want to have device->serial but serial->device Feb 12 13:34:54 jacekowski: it is very useful thing when you develop new kernel or distribution for device Feb 12 13:35:30 that is VERY disappointing. :( Feb 12 13:35:32 I just found out that Maemo 6 will have a drm-enabled mode Feb 12 13:36:02 Anyone checked if it's possible to import existing (sportstracker) workouts to eCoach? Feb 12 13:36:09 ptl: Almost 6 months know now, old news? Feb 12 13:36:22 X-Fade: old news but I didn't know until now Feb 12 13:36:23 ptl, apparently it will be optional though Feb 12 13:36:40 DRM is made for your convenience! Feb 12 13:36:43 .....or so they say Feb 12 13:36:57 it will, but the mere option will enable drm-drones to buy the phone and bully the market into it Feb 12 13:37:15 http://kottke.org/10/02/meat-stylus-for-the-iphone Feb 12 13:37:17 What is the easiest way to extract the changelog from a .deb package? Feb 12 13:37:28 who likes capacitative displays? :) Feb 12 13:37:28 dpkg-deb -e Feb 12 13:37:31 X-Fade, wasn't there a dpkg option to display it? Feb 12 13:37:52 ptl, it will also give you open mode, too :P Feb 12 13:37:56 ptl, how will they bully if nobody bothers buying the stuff? Feb 12 13:38:02 X-Fade: use mc (midnight commander) to view inside? Feb 12 13:38:05 hrw: the serial certainly is placed behind thbatterye Feb 12 13:38:11 is there a PDF reader for n900 that has cinetic scrolling like the native one but remembers the pages you were on when you closed the program? Feb 12 13:38:14 X-Fade: or "dpkg --extract file.deb ." Feb 12 13:39:02 keesj: sure, and require soldering thin wires to make it fit under battery or making some kind of jig to have battery on cables Feb 12 13:39:32 i did a sweet hack once for that Feb 12 13:39:38 ptl, hmmm I take it evnice doesn't do it? Feb 12 13:40:13 Stskeeps, that vid was a bit speed increased wasn't it? Feb 12 13:40:14 perhaps we should try to request such adapters Feb 12 13:40:14 keesj: the problem is that I lack 600€ to get another n900 in case something will get fried Feb 12 13:40:33 ruskie: what vid? Feb 12 13:40:37 wait, ptl drm mode? :s source? Feb 12 13:40:43 the one with the acceleration ? no Feb 12 13:40:51 hrw: I just want to only have the changelog file ;) Feb 12 13:40:52 looked like that to me Feb 12 13:40:53 problematic indeed Feb 12 13:40:55 ruskie: I installed evince on my emulated N900 and it doesn't do cinetic scrolling there Feb 12 13:41:11 pronto: yes, that's very bad Feb 12 13:41:22 thhats evil Feb 12 13:41:27 sigh, will you drm naysayers look into the actual technology Feb 12 13:41:27 :P Feb 12 13:41:40 cehteh: 1) 100% biodegradable 2) cheaper than a stylus =) Feb 12 13:41:49 though, i've never had an issue with drm...since nothing i own has drm xD Feb 12 13:42:00 Stskeeps, if it restricts it's pointless :) Feb 12 13:42:11 Shrik3: but dont bite in your finger accidentally Feb 12 13:42:42 X-Fade: dpkg-deb --fsys-tarfile file.deb | your script which will get just changelog from tar archive Feb 12 13:42:51 ruskie: if you can write your own security policy, how does it restrict? :P Feb 12 13:43:01 ptl: emulated n900? tell me more Feb 12 13:43:04 ptl, hmm it does do scrooling... might be somewhat kinetic but yeah it's not like in the address book or others Feb 12 13:43:08 Stskeeps, true Feb 12 13:44:07 hrw: scratchbox Feb 12 13:44:17 hrw: It's all on the maemo 5 sdk installation guide Feb 12 13:44:36 ptl: it is not emulation Feb 12 13:44:50 ok Feb 12 13:44:54 but you got the idesa Feb 12 13:44:55 *idea Feb 12 13:44:57 ptl: it is just part of maemo5 running on x86 Feb 12 13:45:08 ruskie: then again, presenting this stuff at FOSDEM is kinda ball-sy Feb 12 13:45:12 wine is also not an emulator, but it's close enough for most people... :) Feb 12 13:45:14 ptl: I have n800 REAL emulator in qemu - thats emulation Feb 12 13:45:18 it's like waving a red cloth in front of people Feb 12 13:45:32 hmm Feb 12 13:45:41 Yeah, I tried running the armel target in scratchbox Feb 12 13:45:48 Stskeeps: But the code is out in the open now. Feb 12 13:45:53 it doesn't work for Xephyr Feb 12 13:46:00 most things dump core. Feb 12 13:46:07 X-Fade: all of it? Feb 12 13:46:17 so I guess the "real" emulation part is flaky Feb 12 13:46:24 ptl: I am not talking of sbox running some binaries Feb 12 13:46:24 Stskeeps: No idea, but there is code in gitorious now. Feb 12 13:46:30 X-Fade: just libcreds2 :P Feb 12 13:46:50 ptl: you can use qemu to run n800 emulation and use Diablo/Chinook/Poky/anything as system Feb 12 13:46:56 Stskeeps: Well watch that space, or something like tha ;) Feb 12 13:47:15 Hmm I really have packetloss on my keyboard. Feb 12 13:47:20 X-Fade: yeah :P Feb 12 13:47:39 i liked fosdem saw many n900 devices but no real developer interest in maemo Feb 12 13:47:53 anything includes fremantle? Feb 12 13:47:58 keesj: indeed - n900 was at big amount Feb 12 13:48:04 ptl: give me fremantle for n8x0 Feb 12 13:48:31 the ofono talk was followed by only a handfull of people Feb 12 13:48:43 I had other talks at that time Feb 12 13:48:50 more interesting ones ;D Feb 12 13:49:00 ... see .... Feb 12 13:49:02 keesj: open something sadly doesn't always mean that people will contribute Feb 12 13:49:31 are you guys bitter about N900? I feel like you don't likeit Feb 12 13:49:54 i'm not bitter, i use it every day. :P Feb 12 13:49:57 Freesmartphone.org (FSO) stuff was nice Feb 12 13:50:12 ptl: I use it every day as a phone and complain even more often Feb 12 13:50:13 but compared to the maemo event really not much Feb 12 13:50:19 ptl: developers have always things to complain about Feb 12 13:50:29 ptl: don't let it muddle your perception Feb 12 13:50:33 Myrtti: users too ;( Feb 12 13:50:48 I was a developer Feb 12 13:50:49 hrw: developers usually have more issues Feb 12 13:50:51 * hrw is more user then developer on maemo5 platform. but more advanced user then n00b Feb 12 13:51:10 n900 is not a phone anyway Feb 12 13:51:11 well, I'm still sort of a developer, but my job is an Unix System Administrator now Feb 12 13:51:30 Corsac: it is good device with crap software Feb 12 13:51:37 I bought the n900 because that would be the first phone I'd be able to program for. Feb 12 13:51:44 I think it is the other way around, hrw =) Feb 12 13:51:55 I also see it as the other way around Feb 12 13:52:07 as embedded engineer if find the n900 an amazing platform to play with Feb 12 13:52:15 you should be glad there is a N900 Feb 12 13:52:22 crap software? What is, isn't bad. Feb 12 13:52:39 * LinuxCode has been waiting years for a device thats running a proper linux distro and has 3g and fits in the pocket Feb 12 13:52:46 ptl: I have 2 openmoko devices Feb 12 13:52:46 granted, there's not the selection as for the iPhone. But things have a potential. Feb 12 13:52:55 I find it a great toy, too Feb 12 13:52:55 :p Feb 12 13:53:32 mikhas: hw is nice from my point of view. software has many bugs which will remain not fixed Feb 12 13:53:49 hrw, are you the project lead for maemo ? Feb 12 13:53:56 and that is why you know they wont get fixed ? Feb 12 13:53:58 lol Feb 12 13:54:24 LinuxCode: 'fixed in harmattan', 'wontfix for fremantle' - heard that too many times now Feb 12 13:54:39 hrw is pretty accurate there. but "many" is subjective Feb 12 13:54:46 I see that daily in Fedora too Feb 12 13:54:48 so ? Feb 12 13:54:53 LinuxCode: me to Feb 12 13:54:56 *too Feb 12 13:54:56 as long as they fix the bug I entered today Feb 12 13:54:57 ;P Feb 12 13:55:15 LinuxCode: browser is hildonized nicely. but go to page which has expired ssl certificate and you will get ugly page - wontfix by nokia Feb 12 13:55:16 if it says wont fix, for the most part people provide no useful information Feb 12 13:55:30 "ugly" Feb 12 13:55:32 LEAP support is 'wontfix' :( Feb 12 13:55:52 I need LEAP support so badly. Feb 12 13:55:54 s/ugly/default mozilla/ Feb 12 13:56:09 ptl, LEAP is proprietary Feb 12 13:56:18 frals: sure, but it remains not hildon style so ugly Feb 12 13:56:26 tell cisco to change the license Feb 12 13:57:21 now you see why people say "wontfix" Feb 12 13:57:27 not a bug... Feb 12 13:58:27 bug #6933 is a bug Feb 12 13:58:28 Bug https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=6933 Alarm times are shown wrong Feb 12 13:58:44 bug #8549 is a bug Feb 12 13:58:45 Bug https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=8549 Skype call/chat to offline contacts ends with wrong text note Feb 12 13:58:52 bug #7788 is a bug Feb 12 13:58:53 Bug https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=7788 emoticons are displayed in chat view but messages list do not shows them Feb 12 13:58:56 etc etc etc Feb 12 13:59:10 LinuxCode: well, n900 has proprietary code in it. Instead of worrying about DRM in maemo 6, why can't they do something useful when you need to go proprietary? Feb 12 13:59:31 lack of folder subscription in email client is a bug which hits badly on hundreds of imap folders Feb 12 13:59:41 oh Feb 12 13:59:42 btw Feb 12 13:59:57 what's the best way to use gmail in n900 if you have thousands of unread messages? Feb 12 14:00:04 m.gmail.com Feb 12 14:00:07 read the damn messages?-) Feb 12 14:00:09 hth, hand Feb 12 14:00:19 or set up a filter so your inbox won't get flooded Feb 12 14:00:25 i a all for the maemo security model(what i understand of it) Feb 12 14:00:32 I tried it on the emula... ooops, sorry, scratchbox environment compiled for x86 and it was slow as hell Feb 12 14:00:44 bug #72127 is other annoying bug Feb 12 14:00:45 Bug https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=72127 was not found. Feb 12 14:00:46 there's a maemo 4 client called macuco Feb 12 14:00:55 but it isn't ported to the N900 yet Feb 12 14:01:20 it's just a webkit browser widget that identifies itself as iPhone and then handles the screen properly Feb 12 14:01:33 on gmail Feb 12 14:02:45 other companies I know are doing a worse job Feb 12 14:03:18 horrible job and the maemo security sounds doable Feb 12 14:03:48 i think they miss good runtime protection of processes Feb 12 14:05:31 you saying that there's a real need for drm? Feb 12 14:05:36 drm is different from security Feb 12 14:05:54 ptl: drm is just a side effect, main focus is on on-device security Feb 12 14:06:19 drm is the way you get commercial software on devices Feb 12 14:06:31 that's my point, it does not need to be a side-effect Feb 12 14:06:35 you can get on-device security without drm Feb 12 14:06:39 indeed i think there is a good need for booth Feb 12 14:06:45 ptl: how? Feb 12 14:06:48 ptl: sure, and that's what open mode is also for - making your own security policy Feb 12 14:06:59 or we might just have different definitions of "DRM" Feb 12 14:07:31 just apply standard security measures. like, say, firewall, permissions, capabilities, good programming practices, process protection and so on Feb 12 14:07:31 security first but second help developers sell sofware to make a viable place is a good goal IMHO Feb 12 14:07:38 There are 2 things. There is going to be platform security and drm support. Feb 12 14:07:41 not being able to use ussd is a catastrophe for german providers Feb 12 14:08:05 what's ussd? Feb 12 14:08:06 ptl: and that would stop piracy how? Feb 12 14:08:18 oh, you said security. Feb 12 14:08:44 being able to manage the prepaid account requires this menu system which uses # ans * Feb 12 14:08:44 security does not really concern unauthorized use of copyrighted software. Feb 12 14:09:08 zerojay: hey, I've used your flash blocker for a day and it's been working well, thanks! Feb 12 14:09:09 ptl device security is different. go watch the maemo security presentation and come back when you reaaly know what you are talking about Feb 12 14:09:20 keesj: ok, what's the URL? Feb 12 14:09:30 google for it! Feb 12 14:09:45 but I may find the wrong one. Assure I am in the right direction. :) Feb 12 14:09:47 i a on my n900 Feb 12 14:10:07 or at least say the site, that decreases the chance of mistake., Feb 12 14:10:09 user security is different from content/software provider security ptl Feb 12 14:10:29 they want to secure their apps from copying Feb 12 14:10:50 pupnik_: yes, but there is a lot more. Feb 12 14:10:57 that's sooooo 1999. Feb 12 14:11:00 is some more maemo6 code already out ? other someone made a mistake at -devel ML ? :) Feb 12 14:11:31 pupnik_: Allowing apps to encrypt their data, checking capabilities of an app. Making sure nobody else messes with your own app. Feb 12 14:11:32 VDVsx: i assume he's getting spanked with birc leaves in public at the moment as punishment Feb 12 14:11:39 the main thing is that YOU also dont want every stupid app that you download to be able to read youperswonal data Feb 12 14:11:42 ty X-Fade Feb 12 14:11:47 So, DRM is really an enabled for immorality and immoral software? Feb 12 14:11:52 *enabler Feb 12 14:11:57 security is developed on gitorious Feb 12 14:12:01 or for hiding your porn website history from your wife Feb 12 14:12:05 depending on perspective Feb 12 14:12:10 Stskeeps, ehehe, not a big deal, I think Feb 12 14:12:18 thats what microb needs, inprivate! Feb 12 14:12:19 keesj: but that's fine-grained access that can be implemented using capabilities and no DRM at all, isn't it? Feb 12 14:12:31 Or securing your phonebook, local files. Feb 12 14:12:37 ptl: capabilities are notoriously broken in that regard :P Feb 12 14:12:44 dbus security is an interesting thing, too Feb 12 14:13:09 so, let's say dbus security. Ok, so we got a solution. Then why DRM? Feb 12 14:13:22 we are talking about security not drm. drm is the side effecg that one app can hide the data from the other apps Feb 12 14:13:33 DRM is bad in all cases, in my opinion. You don't have an organization that's deemed to stop dbus security, do you? Feb 12 14:13:35 ptl: You really need to read the slides. Feb 12 14:13:43 The guys from Defective by Design know better Feb 12 14:13:48 ptl: you need to read all the Q&A stuff and slides Feb 12 14:13:51 X-Fade: I am keen to... Feb 12 14:13:51 dbus only work on user security so..... Feb 12 14:14:02 ptl: they are on slideshare. Feb 12 14:14:19 ptl: DRM is a side effect to a security framework. security framework makes it possible, but you don't need DRM to use security framework. Feb 12 14:14:26 they added security to the dbusdaemon to support theire security model. Feb 12 14:15:08 I love how people complain, and when you point out they should've been just a tad more patient, suddenly you're the bad guy for implying they were impatient... Feb 12 14:15:22 is that the URL? http://www.slideshare.net/reshetov/maemo-platform-security-fosdem Feb 12 14:15:48 there is another for maemo 6 specifically Feb 12 14:16:04 this one is most recent Feb 12 14:16:12 ptl: maemo 5 has no platform security ;) Feb 12 14:16:16 ptl: So ... Feb 12 14:16:48 X-Fade: sure it has plenty of security... You can... Oh wait Feb 12 14:16:53 :D Feb 12 14:17:06 crashanddie: user / root, that is about it :) Feb 12 14:17:25 ruskie: why did you think the video is speed up btw? it's actually how fast it goes :) Feb 12 14:17:36 X-Fade: at least the passwords aren't stored in unencrypted text files... oh wait Feb 12 14:17:47 X-Fade: so that's why it's am fabulous platform Feb 12 14:17:53 X-Fade: why made it worse on purpose? Feb 12 14:18:11 god damn these carriers. sucking my money and blocking service Feb 12 14:18:20 ptl: Wait until some app causes your phonebill to be $10000,- Feb 12 14:18:22 ptl: it's not worse Feb 12 14:18:50 X-Fade: you make it sound like open-source is insecure... Feb 12 14:19:02 X-Fade: nou dat is echt een Hollandse manier om een getal te schrijven ;) met ",-" op het einde Feb 12 14:19:03 ptl: the current problems are people complaining their IM passwords are plain text, for instance Feb 12 14:19:04 because that's what's being compared here Feb 12 14:19:13 this could be fixed with security framework Feb 12 14:19:24 ptl: It can be. Just like closed source can be. Feb 12 14:19:25 Stskeeps, your hand movements seem faster than I would expect Feb 12 14:19:30 Some aspects of it. Feb 12 14:19:39 ptl: I just would like to know about it. Feb 12 14:19:39 ruskie: i have really fast and creepy hands Feb 12 14:19:44 A comprehensive security framework that doesn't get in the way is hard. Feb 12 14:20:00 crashanddie: yeah yeah, dutchman is creeping up sometimes. Feb 12 14:20:04 hmm Feb 12 14:20:07 I've been thinking Feb 12 14:20:09 X-Fade: it can, but not by itself, it's not mandatory, and you are using it in contrast with being able to store encrypted passwords Feb 12 14:20:10 If it doesn't get in the way, it's not security. Feb 12 14:20:18 a battery and signal indicator on the "slide to unlock" screen would be nice Feb 12 14:20:21 And that doesn't impact performance much Feb 12 14:20:33 :p Feb 12 14:20:36 *much* Feb 12 14:20:38 but does Feb 12 14:20:43 either way Feb 12 14:20:53 X-Fade: I'm afraid it never really leaves ya Feb 12 14:20:56 should we let them release examples of use and the source before we condemn them to death? :P Feb 12 14:21:05 let practice speak for itself Feb 12 14:21:08 X-Fade: at some point you might convince people you're south african, but that's about as good as it'll get Feb 12 14:21:16 well, but it is the practive speaking for itself Feb 12 14:21:31 drm has been there for years Feb 12 14:21:38 and I haven't recalled seeing a single good case for it. Feb 12 14:21:45 crashanddie: I can pull off a belgian quite nicely though ;) Feb 12 14:22:00 it's all about disabling legitimate rights. Feb 12 14:22:06 do we have phone switch for Fremantle ? Feb 12 14:22:13 (sorry about the abrupt entrance) Feb 12 14:22:13 ptl: or protecting your content Feb 12 14:22:17 (and hi to all) Feb 12 14:22:32 using the badly named "piracy" as a lame excuse Feb 12 14:22:59 timeless: still here? Feb 12 14:23:04 ptl: Most of this security is really not about drm at all. Feb 12 14:23:29 what does (#) mean? Feb 12 14:23:29 X-Fade: so keep the non-drm part! Why the open source guys can't get the secure part? Feb 12 14:23:37 ptl: sure they can Feb 12 14:23:41 ptl: that's the point Feb 12 14:23:42 like \o/ ? Feb 12 14:23:51 ptl: It is just like SELinux in a lot of respects. Feb 12 14:23:56 ptl: if you don't want DRM, you're more than free to not have it Feb 12 14:24:06 hi Feb 12 14:24:08 and use the security framework for your own abilities Feb 12 14:24:10 amigadave, Ping? Feb 12 14:24:13 i don't think tere are many examples of good but open security applied to the phone usage senario Feb 12 14:24:15 ptl: And there is a drm component too. But that part sets of red flags so that you can't think clearly anymore ;) Feb 12 14:24:16 ptl: I want to give my child the phone - to amuse them in the car. I trust them to not throw it out the window. I do not trust them to not go looking for porn. Feb 12 14:24:35 Stskeeps: can I choose to not have DRM and have the rest of the security framework? I am reading the presentation and it doesn't seem possible Feb 12 14:24:42 i did not look at palm pre yet so i don't know what they did Feb 12 14:24:43 ptl: yes Feb 12 14:24:45 ptl: Yes, you can. Feb 12 14:25:01 ptl: In open mode, the device key for the drm part is not available. So drm doesn't work. Feb 12 14:25:02 dneary: pong Feb 12 14:25:37 http://www.engadget.com/2010/02/11/south-korean-iphone-users-turn-to-sausages-as-a-cold-weather-me/ <- hahaha. Feb 12 14:25:37 ptl: But you still have the platform security, only now you can specify the policies. Feb 12 14:26:30 *this choice Feb 12 14:26:32 well, I have to say it's not as bad as I thought then, but I still think having this choise is not good, because the proprietary software industry will bully the viability of this future device being closed-source, copyrighted and patented material only, and again the open-source programmers will have to play catch... Feb 12 14:28:19 smaug: before i forget, the answer to who improves modest is: you, it's 100% opensource @ modest.garage.maemo.org Feb 12 14:28:42 Nokia doesn't micro manage the project, and if there are improvements in modest, then they should appear in future versions released by nokia Feb 12 14:28:46 ptl: It being a phone brings some resposibilities for us too. Not giving users a high phonebill or making sure your facebook password isn't uploaded is crucial. Feb 12 14:28:49 sorry for the terrible delay Feb 12 14:29:19 the only mail related things which aren't opensource are MfE/pcsuite/nokia messaging, which are just sync / provider plugins Feb 12 14:29:31 X-Fade: agree on that Feb 12 14:29:39 X-Fade: disagree on drm Feb 12 14:29:44 so the biggest problem (for me) is that it will be nokia who in the end will say if your application is allowed to access the phone functionality and i reaaly hope (but dont thing so) the phone can be used in insecure mode Feb 12 14:29:47 agree on aegis security model Feb 12 14:29:56 on encrypted passwords and such Feb 12 14:29:58 ptl: one example that actually did happen was the FM radio causing the microphone not to work and hence disrupting emergency calls etc.. which points to the need for security within the OS Feb 12 14:30:05 ptl: But you can just boot your own kernel and not use it. Feb 12 14:30:08 right now, an installed app has access to everything Feb 12 14:30:10 is there a package size limit when installing with hildon package manager ? Feb 12 14:30:38 I still think we need to have a discussion on the 'killswitch' too. Feb 12 14:30:58 but look Feb 12 14:31:02 Should the community be able to kill a obviously broken app. Feb 12 14:31:14 this security model is about: YOU deciding whether or not the software makes some stuff or not Feb 12 14:31:23 Or warn the user in some way. Feb 12 14:31:32 but DRM is the opposite: the SOFTWARE deciding for you how you use your device Feb 12 14:31:41 ptl: no it's not. Feb 12 14:31:55 ptl: you can use DRM under the users control to enforce their wishes. Feb 12 14:31:58 pt1 is right Feb 12 14:32:11 DRM decides for me on the use of BitTorrent Feb 12 14:32:30 RST38h: Which will still work in Maemo 6. Feb 12 14:32:36 RST38h: So options enough. Feb 12 14:32:39 hopefully :) Feb 12 14:32:41 ptl, in implementation DRM is about keeping cryptographic keys secret and content secret Feb 12 14:32:46 ptl: I don't want the wallpaper with moving boobs according to the accellerometer to have access to the phone. This can be done with the aid of DRM Feb 12 14:33:05 Speed: Can't Feb 12 14:33:14 SpeedEvil: No, that is done with platform security. Feb 12 14:33:15 Speed: All DRM can do is prevent you form fondling those boobs Feb 12 14:33:17 Stskeeps: I know, it shares a lot with standard security, it overlaps indeed. But the bad part is what it is used for, and it's for limitting you, not your software. Feb 12 14:33:18 SpeedEvil: Not drm. Feb 12 14:33:36 ptl: of course, and if you're liberal, you choose a mode where the DRM doesn't work Feb 12 14:33:43 at least you have the choice Feb 12 14:33:57 the challenge is to avoid anything but the DRM getting broken when you switch modes. Feb 12 14:34:18 and that's where it will be interesting to see nokia's policy on it Feb 12 14:34:31 If software providers bully the usability of the device for the DRM-only mode, you have no practical choice Feb 12 14:34:41 that's my point Feb 12 14:34:51 ptl, agreed, policy is a discussion point Feb 12 14:34:52 software providers and their sheep users Feb 12 14:35:00 timeless_mbp: hah. Sorry, just now I'm busy enough with some other open source project :) Feb 12 14:35:12 smaug: yeah, i know the feeling Feb 12 14:35:16 ptl: but either way, it's up to you if you want to let the application restrict your use further. Feb 12 14:35:18 i'm currently adding more projects Feb 12 14:35:27 i'm poking hudson, symbian, xerces Feb 12 14:35:34 i need to poke sqlite again Feb 12 14:35:38 sdwilsh promised to help me Feb 12 14:35:49 timeless: xerces? Java or Cpp? Feb 12 14:35:54 cpp Feb 12 14:36:07 ptl: but yes, intended policy will be interesting to see. Feb 12 14:36:17 i'd like to hear how shut down DRM mode truely is. Feb 12 14:36:21 crashanddie: why? Feb 12 14:37:22 timeless_mbp: I ported the initial version of xerces-cpp to Maemo Feb 12 14:37:40 ptl, but i think we can all agree on that the proposed security framework is not evil and it enables choice instead of taking it away from you unless you agree to Feb 12 14:37:49 crashanddie: http://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/XERCESC-1911 Feb 12 14:37:49 timeless_mbp: sent back a few bugfixes to mainstream so that it would compile (nearly) out of the box Feb 12 14:38:09 (and that content providers/etc can choose to not let you have their content if it's not securely treated) Feb 12 14:38:11 crashanddie: i'd appreciate any help to get that committed Feb 12 14:38:37 crashanddie: check out the patch size :) Feb 12 14:39:20 VDVsx: unban the guy later today, k? Feb 12 14:40:02 so lack of focus for maemo on fosdem worries me. if maemo is not interesting for linux people we have a big problem. can we expect the interest to grow? Feb 12 14:40:10 crashanddie: +b *!*jansimon@*.dip.t-dialin.net$##fix_your_connection Feb 12 14:40:13 timeless_mbp: page isn't loading -- wifi is crap Feb 12 14:40:17 crashanddie, there's a better way to ban in these situation Feb 12 14:40:39 exactly what Myrtti said :) Feb 12 14:40:50 Myrtti: he's not having a problem with his connection, he's DCC'ing Feb 12 14:41:15 as soon as he's done downloading pr0n, he will be stable again Feb 12 14:41:28 keesj, lack of interest? Feb 12 14:41:30 did oyu see how many n900s there was? Feb 12 14:41:36 were Feb 12 14:41:48 device yes many Feb 12 14:41:55 no actually crashanddie i meant "you" Feb 12 14:41:57 oh, now that I think of it, I saw my first N900 in the wild here in Brisbane Feb 12 14:42:04 crashanddie: that has happened with non-dccing people after the new ircd because they've joined too many channels without enough time between the /joins. it's not necessarily dcc. Feb 12 14:42:20 and at my work i now have two collegues with devices Feb 12 14:42:23 (or because their irc clients have been shite) Feb 12 14:42:44 Myrtti: will that send him to a specific channel? Feb 12 14:42:47 anyway, I need to leave for the weekend forced labour camp Feb 12 14:42:55 crashanddie: yes, to the one after the $ sign Feb 12 14:43:04 Myrtti: k Feb 12 14:43:10 keesj, we did not have a focused booth tho, there were presentations given wrt to Feb 12 14:43:23 i see what you mean now i think Feb 12 14:43:42 isnt linuxtag coming up again Feb 12 14:43:46 ah, so that's why xchat delays every channel join on startup by about 1s Feb 12 14:44:11 woops Feb 12 14:44:19 woops indeed Feb 12 14:44:30 sorry 'bout that Feb 12 14:44:40 it's all because of qgil not comming Feb 12 14:44:54 yeah, now that he's banned from here, he stopped excess flooding himself out and his connection is stabler Feb 12 14:45:03 from looking at #mer Feb 12 14:45:56 Myrtti: so maybe it was a DCC... Feb 12 14:45:58 :P Feb 12 14:46:25 or just because it was 537 nicks less or something Feb 12 14:46:55 I'm not completely certain about the little details, but that is usually what happens, when they're blocked from a fairly big channel Feb 12 14:47:48 I still have trouble seeing #maemo has a "fairly big channel Feb 12 14:48:32 Stskeeps: I was away. Yes, I agree wholeheartedly on that Feb 12 14:49:05 bbl Feb 12 14:49:12 uhm .. ovi maps is da suck ... Feb 12 14:49:32 I wonder if we could do a "No moaning day" Feb 12 14:49:39 tried to route for biking, choosen 'by foot' .. gives: cant calculate pedestrian routes longer than 50km Feb 12 14:49:55 cehteh: which is reasonable? Feb 12 14:50:04 crashanddie, mmm 15th biggest out of 5000 channels and has more users than #freenode itself \o/ meh Feb 12 14:50:17 lcuk: serious? Wow Feb 12 14:50:31 if you're biking, whats wrong with "by car"? Feb 12 14:50:46 its got ~ same number of users as #c Feb 12 14:50:50 nid0: because he's a plonker who's afraid of driving on the motorway :P Feb 12 14:51:22 its hardly small and "fairly big channel" would seem to be accurate Feb 12 14:51:25 im sure there must be an exclude motorways option, even ovi cant be that bad? Feb 12 14:51:39 reminds me, when I was driving down from Australia Zoo the other day, I saw a biker go at roughly 50kph Feb 12 14:52:31 k the marketing emails from nokia about winning a trip to paris are getting annoying now :< Feb 12 14:52:43 nid0: bike routes differ much from car routes here Feb 12 14:52:57 they know I own an n900, it's right next to the advert for the holiday :( Feb 12 14:53:04 cehteh: I'm pretty sure bike routes differ much from pedestrian routes as well Feb 12 14:53:12 yeah .. neither matches Feb 12 14:53:19 but pedestrian usually matches better Feb 12 14:53:32 cehteh: unless you really want the nice gravel, the stairs and the angry pedestrians Feb 12 14:53:42 :) Feb 12 14:53:56 i hope mamemo mapper makes some progress :/ Feb 12 14:54:07 downloading maps and so on Feb 12 14:54:15 cehteh: I'm not aware of any website that offers bike-trails Feb 12 14:54:28 at least, not in a google maps/queriable maps format Feb 12 14:54:31 opencyclemap? Feb 12 14:54:46 ? Feb 12 14:55:07 cehteh: btw, who needs a map to cycle, anyhoo? Feb 12 14:55:08 http://www.opencyclemap.org/ Feb 12 14:55:15 heh Feb 12 14:55:17 cehteh: just get on yer bike and go, anywhere Feb 12 14:55:28 cehteh: so far there is no usable navigation app for maemo5 Feb 12 14:55:53 well .. in summer i sometimes bike overnight, having a map and gps is some good thing then Feb 12 14:56:03 lcuk: what do you think of the "no-moan day" idea? Achievable? Feb 12 14:56:08 and otherwise i sometimes choose bike to reach something ... Feb 12 14:56:37 ive been working, where was this discussed Feb 12 14:56:39 like going to conferences or so Feb 12 14:57:04 cehteh: even when I do overnights, I just use the GPS to see where I'm at, and which direction I need to follow. After that road signs or bicycle paths usually lead the way Feb 12 14:57:20 yeah Feb 12 14:57:34 well some time ago (before n900) i had only gps without maps Feb 12 14:57:40 it's impossible to follow turn-by-turn on a bike anyway Feb 12 14:57:52 crashanddie, when the commonwelth games game to uk (i think), there were a cycling team from some random country Feb 12 14:57:54 thats a bit pita when you find yourself in a dead end at night Feb 12 14:58:03 who got cautioned for cycling up the motorway Feb 12 14:58:07 i dont want turn by turn Feb 12 14:59:04 lcuk: heh, I remember when I got a new gps, and tested it in Paris, when my sister picked me up... Feb 12 14:59:19 It kept telling me "do a U-turn", which I relayted to my sister.... Feb 12 14:59:21 * hrw wants TomTom like app for maemo5. same features I mean Feb 12 14:59:26 http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/funny_old_game/2151150.stm Feb 12 14:59:27 "No way", she said. This is correct. Feb 12 14:59:34 * jon1012 wants turn by turn on his n900 Feb 12 15:00:23 we got to where we were going - she was, after all, living there :) And then I checked the settings. Seems I had told it I was going by bike, so what it *did* tell me, was "turn around and get off the highway, you idiot!" Feb 12 15:00:35 jon1012: and voice selection and offline poi? Feb 12 15:01:00 why not... but turn by turn would be a good start Feb 12 15:01:09 Veggen: yeah, like once you're on the motorway, turning around in the middle of it is better than going further... Feb 12 15:01:25 jon1012: maemo7 will have first attempt at it I heard Feb 12 15:01:31 hm whiel we're on this topic - does anyone's n900 show that they're moving (~2km/h) when they're actually stationary? Feb 12 15:01:53 hrw: but maemo 7 wont run on my n900 Feb 12 15:02:10 jon1012: who knows what future will bring Feb 12 15:02:16 the speedo app on mine sometimes insists its doing 1mph while sitting on my desk, closing/reopening the app often clears that tho Feb 12 15:02:17 hrw: since nokia wants n900 buyers to fuck themselves with Feb 12 15:02:26 sharpnels Feb 12 15:02:28 wow maemo 7, what about maemo6 ? :D Feb 12 15:02:28 :) Feb 12 15:02:52 doubleukay: not unusual. Feb 12 15:02:55 nid0, desk on a gradient? Feb 12 15:03:02 no Feb 12 15:03:33 i made my gps tell me i was travelling at 70mph before now :) Feb 12 15:03:37 hehe .. i wonder what nokias plans are with maemo6 when all devs have an n900 :) Feb 12 15:03:40 by spinning it round my head Feb 12 15:03:47 wat Feb 12 15:03:48 Veggen: ok thanks for affirming Feb 12 15:03:48 It's common for GPSes, as they are not accurate enough, really. So it will have a different position than last calculation, which it interpret the only way it can: movement. Feb 12 15:04:53 Veggen: don't they use doppler shift to measure speed? Feb 12 15:05:08 I'm not sure how, but my recreational garmin puts me at zero speed when I'm stationary Feb 12 15:05:16 Soo.. there. Now i have ordered a N900 as the community looks wounderful. I have a question thugh. Is there or are it possible by script to close everything except telephone function to save battery? Or is there alredy a dist like that? Or is that something plausable to make? Feb 12 15:05:40 doubleukay: but garmin is in gps business since beginning. nokia is not so long Feb 12 15:06:24 cehteh: by 'all devs' you mean 'in-nokia devs', 'community devs' or 'all devs'? Feb 12 15:06:37 community of course Feb 12 15:06:38 sandman mu Feb 12 15:06:46 sandman, its not ususally the idling daemons that cause the battery drain Feb 12 15:06:52 its high demand apps Feb 12 15:06:59 "mu" unasks the question Feb 12 15:07:44 ok, so there is little point making something like that? Feb 12 15:08:15 "When will Symbian compile?" Feb 12 15:08:25 * RST38h is too tired to facepalm Feb 12 15:08:29 "will it blend" Feb 12 15:08:37 =) Feb 12 15:08:39 "BRRRRRRRZZZZZZZH" Feb 12 15:08:45 "YES IT BLENDS!" Feb 12 15:08:58 ahh.. I went to my balcony where it could see more birds, and now it shows 0.06m/s +- which is more reasonable Feb 12 15:09:00 sandman: only for daemons which behave badly .. but you dont want them in first place Feb 12 15:09:13 cehteh: why they would have to worry about them? users will buy next phone because marketing will be aggressive enough. some devs will follow crowd sooner or later Feb 12 15:09:21 usually things just go into wait for something to go and dont need power then Feb 12 15:09:52 if you configure it that it polls email, rss or whatever it wakes up of course .. but thats you who wanted it this way Feb 12 15:09:55 cehteh: nokia forgets about previous model when new one is released - check 770/n800(n810(we))/n900 Feb 12 15:10:08 "balcony"...mmmm, I'm longing for the time when it's not filled with snow ;) Feb 12 15:10:55 Veggen: I'd wish my balcony wasn't at 32 degrees Feb 12 15:10:57 hrw: lets wait and see, nokia may forget, but community may stay a bit longer with n900 because not everyone can afford a new device every half year Feb 12 15:12:16 ok, so it's better to keep away from big apps. No point in making something that don't improve. Thanks for the insight ;) Feb 12 15:12:23 my vague guesses would be that a predcessor to the n900 will be less interesting for geeks but more mainstream/waf Feb 12 15:13:15 sandman: not the size matters, programmers knowledge does Feb 12 15:13:35 hehe.. yeah and conky ;) Feb 12 15:13:50 conky east battery by itself Feb 12 15:14:03 top -d 300 Feb 12 15:14:14 yeah, you are true Feb 12 15:14:55 the battery life with built in apps and just cellular online is pretty ok Feb 12 15:15:05 battery eye is a nice app Feb 12 15:15:18 draws a graph which shows consumption well Feb 12 15:15:31 ahh.. there is a program. cool Feb 12 15:15:38 likely consumes a bit by itself of course Feb 12 15:15:40 i see amazon.de offers for bp-5l batterym from 7 to 30 euro. what should a REAL nokia bp-5l cost? Feb 12 15:15:52 but it has a bg process that records stuff Feb 12 15:15:57 and battery eye draws battery by itself too .. but well .. looks ok so far Feb 12 15:16:07 yea Feb 12 15:16:09 pupnik: the more real, the more expensive =) Feb 12 15:16:21 30 euro is the most real of 'em all Feb 12 15:16:26 iirc i seen original for as cheap as 34 Eur Feb 12 15:16:31 the n900 built in sw is pretty well tuned for good batterylife Feb 12 15:16:34 The 7 euro one is made of vapor and feces Feb 12 15:16:53 ===> home Feb 12 15:16:58 pupnik_: go to nokia store and check how much they want Feb 12 15:17:00 its the active use that drops cpu from sleep mode that eats juice really fast :/ Feb 12 15:17:02 argh BL-5J Feb 12 15:17:47 http://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.22691 Feb 12 15:17:50 urgs Feb 12 15:17:56 I was surprised when saw that n900 battery is smaller then e66 one but has bigger capacity. Feb 12 15:17:58 batteryeye also makes a nice steeeeep slope when you keep 3G online :S Feb 12 15:18:57 * cehteh waits for a standard sized higher capacity battery Feb 12 15:18:58 conversely, the n900 battery is about the same size as the e90 battery and with lower capacity :( Feb 12 15:19:01 cehteh: o Feb 12 15:19:10 cehteh: I'm ordering that one, it should arrive in a few weeks Feb 12 15:19:28 doubleukay: install battery-eye and report Feb 12 15:19:43 i bet it will be crap Feb 12 15:19:44 oh wait, sorry it's the $20 one I'm ordering Feb 12 15:19:51 heh ok Feb 12 15:19:58 which is still dubiously cheap Feb 12 15:20:14 maybe the first charge gets 1200mah but these decay quite fast Feb 12 15:21:13 is there a list or something on app battery consumption? Like a recommended type of list Feb 12 15:21:37 with a device like the n900 where you charge 1-2 times a day bad batteries will wear out really fast Feb 12 15:22:22 nod Feb 12 15:22:27 sandman: just dont care unless you have some really bad app, battery life is ok and if you disable 'normal' behaving apps the savings will be minute Feb 12 15:22:42 cool Feb 12 15:22:57 cehteh: more than once a day? What are you doing? :) Feb 12 15:23:01 who cares if its 15hrs or 15:30 hrs of normal usage? Feb 12 15:23:13 could a 11 euro bl-5j be real? Feb 12 15:23:24 pupnik_: probably not. Feb 12 15:23:36 X-Fade: when heavily playing, video, games, network and so on Feb 12 15:23:57 is there a way to disabling 3.5G while leaving 3G enabled? Feb 12 15:24:02 cehteh: Yeah, that is the 'first week' effect ;) Feb 12 15:24:10 lots of fraudulent sellers on amazon.de then Feb 12 15:24:16 cehteh: First week the battery doesn't last because you try everyting. Feb 12 15:24:17 actually i keep mine in the charger when sitting stationary, not too good for the battery either, but i dont care and i have a full battery when leaving the house Feb 12 15:24:32 cehteh: It actually discharges when green led is on. Feb 12 15:24:43 i know Feb 12 15:25:21 besides this green led is yellow blinking here :P Feb 12 15:25:34 modded mci.ini Feb 12 15:25:46 hehe Feb 12 15:28:25 would be nice to be able to create a schedule for battery charging Feb 12 15:28:29 http://www.aliexpress.com/product-gs/279964276-mobile-phone-battery-BL-5J-high-capacity-battery-wholesalers.html Feb 12 15:28:38 hehe .. want a 100's pack Feb 12 15:28:40 so it would begin at 4am instead of being full at around 1am and keep discharging thru night :p Feb 12 15:28:53 AND Feb 12 15:29:08 ffs, gimme an alarm clock where I can't shut it off with random finger on screen Feb 12 15:29:13 swipe to deactivate :) Feb 12 15:29:39 red: turn device upside down. Feb 12 15:29:49 red, math puzzles Feb 12 15:29:55 or something similar Feb 12 15:30:30 X-Fade: it's not enough Feb 12 15:30:37 gimme an alarm clock I can change the monstrously annoying tune for :( Feb 12 15:30:40 I already set 3 alarms per morning and just two days ago I slept too late again Feb 12 15:30:48 lol Feb 12 15:30:54 mhm maybe i should really buy such a cheap battery for home use and use the original when being on the road Feb 12 15:30:54 google alcometer for phone alarm Feb 12 15:30:56 red, i have 3 alarm clocks Feb 12 15:30:56 red: Don't put it next to your bed then. Feb 12 15:31:04 nid0: maemo5 one is not enough? Feb 12 15:31:25 only place I can charge it in my bedroom is bedsid sadly Feb 12 15:31:26 nid0, you can change the tone Feb 12 15:31:34 one of mine plays James: ring the bells Feb 12 15:31:39 the other is the default Feb 12 15:32:15 red, do you set the alarms every morning, or have you a recurring one Feb 12 15:32:25 night ^ Feb 12 15:33:21 ah handy, somehow id missed that option to set the tone when I last looked. no easy way to disable the vibrate though :( Feb 12 15:33:49 the vibrate is useful Feb 12 15:34:17 i have been woken in the past by the virbate from it being in another room Feb 12 15:34:31 the vibrate's far too powerful/piercing for me though, I hate waking up abruptly and the damn vibrate on the alarm does exactly that before the tone even starts playing Feb 12 15:34:33 lcuk: I set them every night since my time to wake up differs 1-2 hours daily Feb 12 15:34:44 red how curious Feb 12 15:34:52 and my gf confirmed that she heard em ring and saw me shut them off and thought i was just snoozing :) Feb 12 15:34:53 luckily tho it remembers all times Feb 12 15:34:57 i have no recollection ^ Feb 12 15:34:58 and you just tick them Feb 12 15:35:01 nid0: you can configure it Feb 12 15:35:17 red thats a reasonable suggestion Feb 12 15:35:18 /etc/mce/mce.ini Feb 12 15:35:38 a method of doing so through the ui would be handy though, iv had a play with mce but havent found any confirmation on how to disable it entirely Feb 12 15:35:46 what is a reasonable suggestion? Feb 12 15:35:53 the swipe to deactivate? Feb 12 15:35:55 id just comment the line out but for all I know thatll brick the thing if it expects the value to be there Feb 12 15:35:59 i think its quite a must :) Feb 12 15:35:59 just remove it from the list Feb 12 15:36:10 older nokia touch screen phones had it too Feb 12 15:36:14 i disabled vibration for incoming emails completely Feb 12 15:36:20 red, yeah - i have to swuint when i want to snooze it too Feb 12 15:36:26 ah handy to know they are fully removable then Feb 12 15:36:26 to make sure i dont accidentally the whole thing Feb 12 15:36:27 well and some gui config app for mce would be nice Feb 12 15:36:39 squint Feb 12 15:36:41 agree Feb 12 15:37:07 I'd actually like the idea of turning the phone upside down to go into snooze -- and swipe to deactivate alarm. Feb 12 15:37:16 too easy to miss Feb 12 15:37:23 if the cats knock my phone off in the night Feb 12 15:37:23 If the phone is face down, then turning it the correct way around would put another snooze Feb 12 15:37:29 it might be facedown Feb 12 15:37:53 it would start ringing no matter the position, but turning it on the opposite side while alarm plays would activate snooze Feb 12 15:37:55 well, could easily work on turning it over, not having it facedown specifically Feb 12 15:37:56 to be honest - the best idea of deactivate would be something requiring to read what it wants to do Feb 12 15:38:11 true though Feb 12 15:38:18 like the google e-mail alcometer :) Feb 12 15:38:22 red so you pick it up to check whether its the one you HAVE to get up at Feb 12 15:38:22 simple mathematical calculation Feb 12 15:38:25 because otherwise you will just start sleeping again Feb 12 15:38:28 and alarm disables Feb 12 15:38:39 lo javispedro Feb 12 15:38:41 lcuk: you understood wrong, lemme rephrase Feb 12 15:38:49 moo Feb 12 15:38:54 hi javispedro Feb 12 15:39:07 jacekowski, lol i read lots of things whilst sleeping Feb 12 15:39:12 missus said i talk about code :$ Feb 12 15:39:13 lcuk: Turning the phone 180 degrees would stop the alarm and activate snooze. To DISABLE the alarm you'd have to swipe the screen. Feb 12 15:39:37 red but sometimes i just want to see if its the one where i can snooze it, or put up with its noise for another couple of minutes Feb 12 15:39:38 lcuk: but reading something and acting on it will require you to wake up properly Feb 12 15:39:46 jacekowski, nahhh Feb 12 15:39:52 Ha :) oh well Feb 12 15:39:56 they could be preferences. Feb 12 15:40:03 best alarm ever is when tracy whispers in my ear "why is your computer making an odd noise" Feb 12 15:40:17 Just saying I'd be happier any way -- if only shutting the alarm off wasn't this easy. Feb 12 15:40:23 show us naked photo of her Feb 12 15:40:42 just a minute Feb 12 15:40:52 http://www.geekalerts.com/flying-helicopter-alarm-clock/ ... Feb 12 15:41:02    hello   Feb 12 15:41:32 anyone at home?? Feb 12 15:41:40 yeh just arrived @home Feb 12 15:41:44 wazd: ping Feb 12 15:42:15 why all you guys only use boring b & w fonts??? Feb 12 15:42:37 Guest_55926: because if you use colours you'll be banned faster than you can imagine? Feb 12 15:42:37 rofl at that helicopter Feb 12 15:42:38 is there any reason for this Feb 12 15:42:42 Guest_55926: because colors make kittens cry Feb 12 15:42:53 i see Feb 12 15:42:54 because colors are for hilights and channel modes :) Feb 12 15:42:58 colors + irc = reason for punching faces via tcp/ip to exist Feb 12 15:43:08 * Myrtti kisses mode +c Feb 12 15:43:10 mode +C ftw :) Feb 12 15:43:17 c* Feb 12 15:43:35 anyone want to see purty colours? Feb 12 15:43:42 so any news on phone switcher for Maemo ? :) Feb 12 15:43:43 /mode -c? Feb 12 15:43:48 crashanddie yes Feb 12 15:43:52 nooes Feb 12 15:43:55 can you see mine @ crashanddie Feb 12 15:43:56 crashanddie: we've got enough trolls already Feb 12 15:44:00 if not, what owuld be required to port it from symbian ? Feb 12 15:44:02 jacekowski, its an old one, and a bit blurry but shes showing off her stuff, you can see right inside http://liqbase.net/DSCF0004.JPG Feb 12 15:44:07 I am willing to do the work if I can get the source. Feb 12 15:44:18 Guest_55926: how about you get on topic, and stop discussing colours? Feb 12 15:44:28 lcuk: ohhh nice Feb 12 15:44:41 Guest_55926: please don't PM me Feb 12 15:44:58 sivang: source of what? Feb 12 15:45:06 oh Feb 12 15:45:14 source of phone switcher? OLOLOLOLOL Feb 12 15:45:19 *cough* Feb 12 15:45:21 more brandy Feb 12 15:45:21 Myrtti: yeah Feb 12 15:45:21 sivang: what's a phone switcher? :P Feb 12 15:45:41 Stskeeps: something that takes all your stuff from another phone and merges it in an intelligent way to the new one. Feb 12 15:45:55 Stskeeps: very cool gizmo to work with 2 or n Symbianish boxes Feb 12 15:45:55 * Myrtti has heard of this new thing called syncml Feb 12 15:46:02 [crashanddie] Feb 12 15:46:03 syncml ? Feb 12 15:46:09 :) Feb 12 15:46:19 Myrtti: I prefer silva palinka Feb 12 15:46:22 lcuk: did you gut the computer on the left for its optical drives? ;) Feb 12 15:46:55 ACTION hey u forgot me lol Feb 12 15:47:12 anyone have any objections for the removal? Feb 12 15:47:13 doubleukay, that was ancient actually, afaik i had to do a double bypass operation for its FLOPPY drive! Feb 12 15:47:17 no Feb 12 15:47:25 is ok by me too :) Feb 12 15:47:41 fair enough, if you're asking for it Feb 12 15:47:48 hahah Feb 12 15:47:54 this time he saw it coming Feb 12 15:48:00 awwww Feb 12 15:48:01 lol Feb 12 15:48:01 fail Feb 12 15:48:15 14720 themes Feb 12 15:48:16 ban them and that's it Feb 12 15:48:30 he heee Feb 12 15:48:33 crashanddie: go for it. Feb 12 15:48:37 lol Feb 12 15:48:46 1128 tutorial-applet Feb 12 15:48:52 wtf Feb 12 15:49:30 crashanddie: what client are you using? Feb 12 15:49:35 a fail client Feb 12 15:49:39 crashanddie: your first ban said 55 instead of 559.... Feb 12 15:49:55 crashanddie: xchat, irssi? Feb 12 15:50:03 no colloquy Feb 12 15:50:09 but I'm about to change Feb 12 15:50:10 right, failclient then Feb 12 15:50:13 will take care of it tomorrow Feb 12 15:50:21 nbody ever uses IRSSI anymore ? Feb 12 15:50:33 Myrtti: it works for just talking, not channel management Feb 12 15:50:34 crashanddie: Isn't it tomorrow already there? :) Feb 12 15:50:43 X-Fade: well, 2AM, yeah Feb 12 15:50:53 * lcuk giggles @ lbt Feb 12 15:50:58 anyway, cyas Feb 12 15:51:06 later. Feb 12 15:51:14 crashanddie: your slip is showing though Feb 12 15:51:21 crashanddie: are you going to leave it like that? Feb 12 15:51:23 drop the ops though ;) Feb 12 15:51:55 yeah, I'll disconnect in a second, later Feb 12 15:53:15 sivang: have used since 2002 and see no reason to use others Feb 12 15:53:44 sivang: irrsi works fine for me. Feb 12 15:54:02 I should update the themes I've got at irssi/themes Feb 12 15:54:15 Nokia-N900-51-1:~# mv /usr/share/tutorial-applet/ /opt/ && ln -s /opt/tutorial-applet /usr/share/tutorial-applet Feb 12 15:54:35 Myrtti: add espeak support to irssi Feb 12 15:54:52 pupnik_: sorry, I do only themes and alias packs Feb 12 15:55:05 boo :) Feb 12 15:55:22 sivang: I use it Feb 12 15:55:26 moo pupnik Feb 12 15:55:32 moo Feb 12 15:55:39 pupnik, have a look at this: http://maemo.gitorious.org/maemo-af/maemo-optify-boottime Feb 12 15:57:38 lcuk: away from pc - you are working on a list of things that can be safely moved? Feb 12 15:58:00 seems so. Feb 12 15:58:04 yes, and an extra par of eyes on things might be good Feb 12 15:58:09 excellent, the DRM thread is turning into a GPLv3 discussion Feb 12 15:58:11 that project is just first test Feb 12 15:58:17 ive got it on my machines :) Feb 12 15:58:22 Stskeeps: wonderful ;-) Feb 12 15:58:24 conf file has a list Feb 12 15:58:25 http://maemo.gitorious.org/maemo-af/maemo-optify-boottime/blobs/master/maemo-optify-boottime.conf Feb 12 15:58:33 Stskeeps: zealots about that I can go and laugh about? Feb 12 15:58:46 Myrtti: not yet, but i'm preparing popcorn Feb 12 15:58:56 * Myrtti brings the booze Feb 12 15:58:58 i cannot safely test due to cracked usb connector Feb 12 15:59:00 I would just gzip some stuff into the ubifs that after a reflash would be expanded to /opt Feb 12 15:59:15 lcuk: idea is nice - how much space you got? Feb 12 16:00:43 cracked usb connector :S Feb 12 16:01:19 well, mine's now without a functional left speaker and with the keyboard slighlty cracked. I can't really say it's a well-built device. Feb 12 16:01:37 hrw quite a lot i think that gained me about 25mb, it was a few weeks ago and ive had lots in head since, mvo has started looking at a similar method for the default optify Feb 12 16:01:40 howd you break the keyboard? Feb 12 16:01:57 pupnik: I didn't. A Nokia care employee did :( Feb 12 16:01:58 lcuk: add /var/cache/apt/ and /var/lib/apt/ to the list Feb 12 16:02:40 lcuk: /var/lib/apt/ is 25MB here Feb 12 16:02:53 cool, so is it only for maemo or is it croos platform symbian/linux ? Feb 12 16:02:57 (syncml) Feb 12 16:02:59 but I have it on /home/user/MyDocs/.apt/var-lib-apt/ Feb 12 16:02:59 i think those are catered for themselves, or should be. hrw the idea is its kinda configured at the moment for investigation Feb 12 16:03:24 theres a load more folkders that could potentially be done Feb 12 16:03:30 hrw: That will help in space, but also slow it down a bit. Feb 12 16:03:45 X-Fade: how often you install apps? Feb 12 16:04:12 hrw: Well, I'm a special case ;) But just saying. Feb 12 16:04:18 sure Feb 12 16:04:35 btw X-Fade, did you look at http://maemo.org/packages/package_instance/view/diablo_extras_free_armel/openttd-data/0.7.4-1maemo2/ ? Feb 12 16:05:02 I don't know why it thinks maemo-installer-utils is missing :S Feb 12 16:05:17 javispedro: Can you point me to the package which should provide it? Feb 12 16:05:32 X-Fade: (slow down) are there any semi-official resilts on speed difference between NAND and eMMC? Feb 12 16:05:43 DocScrutinizer: Yes Feb 12 16:05:57 X-Fade: any pointer to toss over?= Feb 12 16:06:04 X-Fade: Feb 12 16:06:05 http://maemo.org/packages/package_instance/view/diablo_sdk_free_armel/hildon-application-manager/2.1.19/ Feb 12 16:06:08 DocScrutinizer: That and it reads from compressed fs vs noncompressed. Feb 12 16:06:34 DocScrutinizer: on tmo someone ran bonnie++ Feb 12 16:06:56 javispedro: compressed vs non-compressed may give more difference. Feb 12 16:07:08 javispedro: As these repo files compress quite well. Feb 12 16:07:14 X-Fade: agreed Feb 12 16:07:27 javispedro: hmm maybe that's sufficient for google. thanks Feb 12 16:07:53 javispedro: PONG Feb 12 16:08:01 caps :( Feb 12 16:08:13 wazd: (reading logs) vulture's eye for diablo should install to internal card (/media/mmc2) by default Feb 12 16:08:15 X-Fade: any hope to speedup the apt-worker or reduce how often HAM calls it? Feb 12 16:08:27 pupnik_: Don't look at me. Feb 12 16:08:41 javispedro: well, it says that it's out of the memory :( Feb 12 16:09:25 wazd: ouch. Can you install it frm apt-get? Maybe this is the app mgr free space check. Feb 12 16:10:21 javispedro: no, actually it starts installation and then cancels it Feb 12 16:13:03 bye all Feb 12 16:13:24 hy everybody Feb 12 16:13:51 Just got the graphical "hello world" running. I am happy :-) Feb 12 16:15:40 * sivang high fives wizkoder Feb 12 16:15:45 wizkoder: GTK / py ? Feb 12 16:15:56 Yes, the gtk one Feb 12 16:16:05 c++ Feb 12 16:16:13 javispedro: provides is stored correctly, need to find out why it isn't found/used. Feb 12 16:16:33 Heard its a pain in the ass to deplay python based programs Feb 12 16:16:37 deploy Feb 12 16:17:04 X-Fade: I can file a bug if you want to leave it for later Feb 12 16:17:35 X-Fade: fwiw, the dependency is also a Pre-Dependency. (as suggested by the packaging guide!) Feb 12 16:17:41 javispedro: Yeah, please do so. It seems to be bug I need to trace, not an easy fix. Feb 12 16:18:11 bbl Feb 12 16:20:38 wazd: I've just installed it on my recently-reflashed N810 and it installs to /media/mmc2 (no symlinks; the package unpacks directly to the card) -- on / it just puts a 2MiB binary. Feb 12 16:20:47 ouch, he's away Feb 12 16:27:18 anyone know of any work being done on allowing different notification sounds depending on who the SMS (or IM) is from? I'd LOVE to know if the incoming SMS I am getting is from my monitoring server (and is important) or just a text from a friend without having to actually check Feb 12 16:29:12 mtnkbr you could make a simple dbus listener in python that recognized your network monitoring messages (all sms/im/etc are handled via telepathy dbus) and plays awoogaawooga sounds Feb 12 16:29:23 in addition to the default notification... Feb 12 16:30:39 i've seen nagios thingy for n900 Feb 12 16:30:42 mashiara: There is a nagios widget aswell. Feb 12 16:30:58 mtnbkr: ^^ Feb 12 16:31:01 so it contacts nagios on server and gets all important informations out of it Feb 12 16:34:16 1 Feb 12 16:34:35 mashiara: Hmmm... Not a python programmer :( Maybe I can get my programmer friend to step away from ruby long enough to code something for my N900 in python. :) Feb 12 16:35:10 Kobo Deluxe is in Extras... YEAAAAH! Feb 12 16:35:11 also if your network monitoring is nagios (or nagios based, many are) see Xfades comment Feb 12 16:35:31 what's kobo deluxe? Feb 12 16:35:38 jacekowski: I am using Xymon (used to be hobbit) and I am currently just sending customized emals alerts from a script to myphonenumber@txt.att.net (or whatever that address is) Feb 12 16:35:38 an addictive game Feb 12 16:36:41 Corsac: open source version of Bosconian Feb 12 16:36:50 crashanddie: whats the issue ? Feb 12 16:38:46 mtnbkr: python is easy if you have any idea of how to program OO languages Feb 12 16:39:35 RST38h: I don't know bosconian either, tbh :) Feb 12 16:40:23 python can also be used as a procedural language, if you don't like OO... but that might lose some of its power Feb 12 16:40:24 mashiara: Time is my main issue. last "programming" I ever did was Turbo ascal in '89-'90 thn a little C++, and now just bash shell scritps etc. :) Feb 12 16:40:39 Corsac: google. Feb 12 16:41:30 hai Feb 12 16:42:12 is there any application like dataplan monitor, just for wlan? Feb 12 16:42:15 mtnbkr: well starting with python is easy too :) the DBUS itself is rather simple and I would suppose telepathy has better documentation than IcD2 (for which I basically had to reverse engineer the working way to achieve certain things) Feb 12 16:43:12 IcD2 = Internet-connection Daemon (version 2) Feb 12 16:43:17 you're supposed to use python-conic to access icd2 Feb 12 16:43:40 maybe Feb 12 16:43:47 of course I didn't because python-conic didn't actually work, maybe they've fixed it though Feb 12 16:43:48 old habits dies hard Feb 12 16:44:16 used icd1 via dbus too (on n770,n8x0) Feb 12 16:44:23 I just looked at the libconic sources to figure out what to do though Feb 12 16:45:14 also the dbus approach works, after you figure out that the documentation is subtly wrong in a few places Feb 12 16:45:53 and the interface in general has weird C-isms in it Feb 12 16:46:14 passing connection names as ByteArrays, null-terminitated even Feb 12 16:46:20 WTF is wrong with dbus.String ? Feb 12 16:49:00 Is extras-development screwed up again? Feb 12 16:49:09 isn't it always? Feb 12 16:49:22 Well, it has got its good days and bad days Feb 12 16:49:36 RST38h: What's up? Feb 12 16:49:52 X-Fade: like always, fails to refresh index Feb 12 16:50:10 * RST38h will get the exact message in a moment Feb 12 16:51:41 RST38h: I don't see a problem? Feb 12 16:51:43 X-Fade: It got scared of you and refreshed properly this time =) Feb 12 16:52:00 Are you wearing a screwdriver in your pocket? =) Feb 12 16:52:37 or are you just happy to see me Feb 12 16:53:48 RST38h: nah, that's me ;-) Feb 12 16:55:52 hmmm... kobo does not start with an icon Feb 12 16:56:27 and it seems to hang from the command line =( Feb 12 17:09:19 how can I copy text in x-terminal and then paste it in vim? without middleclick or shift-insert Im clueless Feb 12 17:11:02 Shapeshifter, try "+p or "*p in vim Feb 12 17:11:41 Shapeshifter: click on arrow icon, select text, click on top to copy and later paste? Feb 12 17:11:57 ggvGd Feb 12 17:12:39 ah i didnt know about the top menu, thanks Feb 12 17:12:43 Milo, feeling helpful?-) Feb 12 17:13:09 Milo, :0dG is of course the real vi way Feb 12 17:13:17 heh Feb 12 17:13:21 true Feb 12 17:13:27 Erm, :0 of course requires enter Feb 12 17:13:37 true Feb 12 17:13:38 :0 :) Feb 12 17:13:40 hmm Feb 12 17:13:50 ggdG should be enough Feb 12 17:14:00 Yeah, but gg is vim specific ;) Feb 12 17:14:16 but you might have to do ggdG$ Feb 12 17:14:19 erm Feb 12 17:14:23 nvm Feb 12 17:14:33 vi is weak Feb 12 17:14:38 vim is nice Feb 12 17:15:15 I am hopeless with vi Feb 12 17:15:54 Milo, so you're weak, no vi ;) Feb 12 17:15:57 +t Feb 12 17:16:05 heh Feb 12 17:16:36 I actually suck with vi too, but I think that spending some (quality ;) time with vi would make one more efficient Feb 12 17:16:38 I was introduced to vim before vi, so I learnt to use vim Feb 12 17:16:54 In vim it's too easy to use inefficient things ;) Feb 12 17:17:12 vim is a kind of poisonous bleach liquid here in the UK... Feb 12 17:17:18 the host which I used had alias vi="vim" Feb 12 17:17:20 sounds reasonable Feb 12 17:17:22 lbt: not cif? Feb 12 17:17:23 lbt: how dare you Feb 12 17:17:42 my undersink cupboard is quite old :D Feb 12 17:17:43 I think if you run vim as vi, it starts vim in vi-compatibility mode. Feb 12 17:17:43 nobody insults my vim, and lives Feb 12 17:18:06 * lbt never logs in as nobody Feb 12 17:18:14 but he might now :) Feb 12 17:19:01 pico! Feb 12 17:19:09 :/ Feb 12 17:19:24 RST38h: never mind, size isn't supposed to matter Feb 12 17:19:33 * lbt looks at his rather splendid emacs and smirks Feb 12 17:20:19 sup #maemo Feb 12 17:20:37 sky Feb 12 17:20:43 nez: just emacs vs vi again Feb 12 17:20:56 emacs is dangerous Feb 12 17:21:13 so is gcc Feb 12 17:21:19 vi is the one true editor (TM) Feb 12 17:21:22 it uses AI language and may change your code while you are not watching Feb 12 17:21:28 there shall be no else Feb 12 17:21:33 RST38h: for the better Feb 12 17:21:44 nez: you mean, ed does not satisfy you? Feb 12 17:21:45 Impossible. RST38h's code is perfect. Feb 12 17:21:54 emacs is running in the bg Feb 12 17:22:00 ed is the defacto editor Feb 12 17:22:00 QED Feb 12 17:22:01 period Feb 12 17:22:10 at least, it is better than some weird ai can ever make it =0 Feb 12 17:22:10 actually I think we can all agree that nano is better than all other editors Feb 12 17:22:21 I've never actually read any of your code. Feb 12 17:22:26 RST38h: I prefer to just cat my code directly into the compiler Feb 12 17:22:26 * RST38h agrees with nez Feb 12 17:22:28 for values of "all other editors" being equal to "pico" Feb 12 17:22:40 Or joe. Feb 12 17:22:46 nano is even better than pico! Feb 12 17:22:46 or notepad Feb 12 17:22:55 damn mgedmin beat me Feb 12 17:22:58 real mean edit by physically manipulating the heads on the magnetic storage drive. only girls use editors Feb 12 17:23:01 joe is weird. tried using it but never could get used to it Feb 12 17:23:12 notepad doesn't even interpret the unix linebreaks Feb 12 17:23:20 tripzero, oh no, you set up the scene for the emacs camp to pull out M-x butterfly again! Feb 12 17:23:31 I use joe Feb 12 17:23:32 hahaa Feb 12 17:23:47 my emacs is already flapping Feb 12 17:23:48 villager, i use jo-mamma Feb 12 17:23:49 * mgedmin wonders if there's anybody on this channel who hasn't seen http://xkcd.com/378/ yet Feb 12 17:24:40 joe is probably easier to get used to if you've ever used that ancient ms-dos word processor, wordstar Feb 12 17:25:09 c:\utils\editors\edit.com Feb 12 17:25:36 * mgedmin once wrote his own advanced MS-DOS text editor Feb 12 17:25:44 * mgedmin later discovered vim and never went back Feb 12 17:27:36 mgedmin: I am sure the first guy in that xkcd strip was continuing typing away in nano all that time =) Feb 12 17:28:17 vim > vi Feb 12 17:28:17 [D[D[D[D[D[D[D[D[D[D[D[D[D[D[D[D[D[D[D[D[D[D[D Feb 12 17:28:41 sorry...my irc is being weird Feb 12 17:28:42 is that what vi prints when you hold down the left arrow key? Feb 12 17:28:54 mgedmin: yeah Feb 12 17:30:04 I wonder if there is an IRC plugin for emacs Feb 12 17:30:16 erc Feb 12 17:30:23 I bet it is a favorite extreme sport to type your name into vi in command mode Feb 12 17:30:26 of course Feb 12 17:30:36 boooring. Feb 12 17:30:39 I just get 'an' Feb 12 17:31:46 SpeedEvil: is your name... ian? Feb 12 17:31:51 ~curse MMS Feb 12 17:31:52 May you be reincarnated as a Windows XP administrator, MMS ! Feb 12 17:32:13 frals: not as bad as being a Window ME admin Feb 12 17:32:52 ~cmds Feb 12 17:33:01 ~help Feb 12 17:33:24 ~wtf Feb 12 17:33:40 ~wtf afaik Feb 12 17:33:42 AFAIK: as far as I know Feb 12 17:33:55 infobot: sweet Feb 12 17:33:57 methinks sweet is a great girl? Feb 12 17:34:15 infobot: lick Feb 12 17:34:25 like* Feb 12 17:35:54 level 45 in kobodeluxe is hard... Feb 12 17:37:15 nez: indeed. Feb 12 17:40:20 mgedmin: can you start it from the app launcher? Feb 12 17:40:30 no, playing it on my laptop Feb 12 17:40:34 oh ok Feb 12 17:40:53 hi, the xterm cant be set to width of "standard" 80, only to 79, is it known? Feb 12 17:43:51 can I get the gprs transfer counter numbers from the commandline? Feb 12 17:44:21 there is *some* api for that .. maybe dbus Feb 12 17:44:34 Shapeshifter, you're right! I never noticed! Feb 12 17:44:35 mhh Feb 12 17:44:58 but if you shrink the font you can get e.g. 98 columns Feb 12 17:45:02 shepshifter "ifconfig grps0" ? Feb 12 17:45:06 ought to be enough for everybody Feb 12 17:45:45 mashiara: nah, ifconfig doesnt provide the info Feb 12 17:46:04 Shapeshifter: theres a gconf key for that, dunno exact path thou Feb 12 17:46:13 frals: thanks Feb 12 17:46:14 if you check the source of personal-data-monitor you should be able to find it Feb 12 17:46:15 Shapeshifter: there is this "Data Plan Monitor" app .. use the source luke Feb 12 17:46:15 you mean total or sesison counts ? Feb 12 17:46:25 or data plan monitor or what the name is ;) Feb 12 17:46:35 mashiara: total for a month Feb 12 17:46:42 * mashiara was thinking of the byte counts for the session... Feb 12 17:46:46 yeah i dont know the exact name either Feb 12 17:46:52 yeah ill look at the source Feb 12 17:47:31 /system/osso/connectivity/network_type/GPRS/gprs_rx_bytes Feb 12 17:47:40 /system/osso/connectivity/network_type/GPRS/gprs_tx_bytes Feb 12 17:48:05 * mashiara has a full XML dump of his gconf tree always at hand Feb 12 17:48:34 fastest way to locate key names if you have ideas of what to search for Feb 12 17:49:08 mashiara: thanks :) Feb 12 17:49:16 be aware though that I have no idea if/when these keys are reset Feb 12 17:54:01 OMG, they did release Barbie the Computer Engineer Feb 12 17:54:13 * RST38h will have nightmares now Feb 12 17:54:36 Hahahaha. Feb 12 18:01:54 Can I disable automatic mail fetching for a certain account? Feb 12 18:02:37 I have a few accounts for important mail and then some for less-than-important mail Feb 12 18:02:56 I'd like to get notifications for the important mail, but having my phone go off everytime someone posts on a mailing list is a bit excessive Feb 12 18:03:40 multiple accounts dude Feb 12 18:04:31 ...I have multiple accounts Feb 12 18:04:42 But I can't really find a way to configure notification/fetch settings separately for each account Feb 12 18:05:05 At least from the GUI, is it hidden away in some file? The documentation for the built-in apps tends to be somewhat scarce Feb 12 18:06:22 funny, dbus-send --help doesn't work Feb 12 18:16:08 Lumpio-: send bugreports to a webmail then Feb 12 18:17:05 So... I guess there's no way to use the built-in mail stuff with this Feb 12 18:17:18 Luckily my not-so-important account is gmail, so I guess I could use the browser for it Feb 12 18:27:01 Shapeshifter: but man dbus-send works? Feb 12 18:31:32 nice someone seems to be working on quassel port. Feb 12 18:48:50 * GeneralAntilles bangs head on desk @ Joiku. Feb 12 18:50:17 All these damn Symbian developers. Feb 12 18:55:00 What about them? Refuse to die? Feb 12 18:56:19 RST38h, they keep opening their own damn repos. Feb 12 18:56:24 It's the bad old days all over again. Feb 12 19:07:39 repos? repos? tar xzvf! Feb 12 19:08:52 X-Fade, I expect we'll be needing to revive that wiki page. . . . Feb 12 19:12:05 is there any way to make a .deb file that copies certain files to /opt/? Feb 12 19:12:33 General: Well, the Extras promotions are still kafkian hell, so I cannot blame them Feb 12 19:14:19 * RST38h finally found how to configure snap-to-grid feature in hildon desktop Feb 12 19:14:39 The step of 10 pixels seems to work the best (default is 4) Feb 12 19:14:59 MohammedAG: sure, do it in postinstall Feb 12 19:21:35 RST38h, how? Feb 12 19:27:07 RST38h, they didn't even attempt, it. Feb 12 19:28:45 of course it still is very much beta and can cause device reboots etc Feb 12 19:29:21 but (as I noted in the thread) doesn't extras require source packages ? Feb 12 19:29:48 for not using Ovi they have no excuse once the thing is stable enough to pass QA Feb 12 19:29:51 mashiara, only free. Feb 12 19:31:08 ah ok, for some reason I was under the mistaken impression that extras would be the "hippie haven" and binary-only needs to go through Ovi Feb 12 19:31:29 nah, we have non-free Feb 12 19:31:38 We'd just be shooting ourselves in the foot since Ovi charges crazy fees for distribution Feb 12 19:31:43 besides, Ovi is a very recent invention Feb 12 19:31:47 Extras has been around since the 770. Feb 12 19:31:57 True Feb 12 19:32:21 General: Dont forget Maemo Select too Feb 12 19:32:53 RST38h, that's not actually a repository. Feb 12 19:33:27 New users generally use maemo.org and don't know about extras :/ Feb 12 19:33:55 ShadowJK, it's enabled out of the box. Feb 12 19:34:28 Also maemo.org has these nice big green buttons pointing to the .install files Feb 12 19:34:56 Hmm...once in a while, Gizmodo publishes something useful Feb 12 19:35:05 General: Yea, but a distribution channel still Feb 12 19:35:29 RST38h, it's a web portal. Feb 12 19:35:38 Weird, Darwinia is on 360 Arcade. Feb 12 19:35:40 General: So is Downloads :) Feb 12 19:35:53 And...well...Ovi too :) Feb 12 19:35:55 GeneralAntilles, which works if they know about app manager :) Feb 12 19:36:01 Maemo Select has its place Feb 12 19:36:13 RST38h, Ovi is a repository. Feb 12 19:40:50 anyone here know anything aout a video calling app? Feb 12 19:55:06 does anyone know what file do I edit in busybox for setting up shell environment variables? like .bashrc in bash Feb 12 19:55:25 .profile? Feb 12 19:55:26 :P Feb 12 19:58:37 RST38h, how did you get the snap to grid configured? Feb 12 19:59:43 there is an ini file Feb 12 20:00:31 Stskeeps: I tried .profile and it worked, but I'd prefer something like .ashrc... anyway there is a directory .profiled that has some stuff in it, like custom.ini, do you know what they're for? they're full of #'s Feb 12 20:00:54 ptl: see how busybox does it.. but .profile is a good bet Feb 12 20:01:31 yes, .profile worked Feb 12 20:01:32 I googled it... Feb 12 20:04:20 now let's install QuakeIII... Feb 12 20:05:43 what's the best site for uploads? Feb 12 20:05:59 Wanted to upload the modified source for an app Feb 12 20:11:34 Mohammad: YouTube! =) Feb 12 20:19:26 !list Feb 12 20:19:43 http://www.peroxidepropulsion.com/ Feb 12 20:19:45 ops Feb 12 20:19:48 oops Feb 12 20:39:58 ? Feb 12 20:40:21 ! Feb 12 20:41:09 ¿ Feb 12 20:42:17 :) Feb 12 20:47:29 ok, so here's a fun problem Feb 12 20:48:29 i recorded things with recaller Feb 12 20:48:35 but they're too quiet Feb 12 20:49:10 it stores in .aac and i cant for the life of me get any linux tools to handle it properly Feb 12 20:49:10 what do you mean by too quiet? Feb 12 20:49:15 oh Feb 12 20:49:17 lol Feb 12 20:49:45 its quiet. i can hear the speaker barely Feb 12 20:50:39 I'll try it myself sometime Feb 12 20:50:59 well this was an adhoc unintended use Feb 12 20:51:05 someone was giving a LUG lecture Feb 12 20:51:11 so i wanted to audio record it. Feb 12 20:51:47 but isn't it meant to record phone conversations? Feb 12 20:51:52 or is it a general audio recorder? Feb 12 20:51:58 it just records what's on th emic Feb 12 20:52:31 ok Feb 12 20:52:33 and other stuff probably Feb 12 20:52:37 but that said, it will not record the other people talking? Feb 12 20:52:48 im sure it records the remote party if you have one Feb 12 20:54:16 the terminal should allow "alsamixer -c0" Feb 12 20:54:20 government is the bigmouth idiots from your high-school student council Feb 12 20:54:31 you can control volumes there (more detailed as on the gui) Feb 12 20:56:58 Hi, Feb 12 20:57:10 I've a bug to report against libcurl Feb 12 20:57:17 wich component is that? Feb 12 20:59:35 bigon in maemo bugzilla ? Feb 12 21:00:06 yes Feb 12 21:00:10 libcurl? I use libcurl in my ubuntu Feb 12 21:00:20 it's nice to program with it Feb 12 21:00:33 system software I would think Feb 12 21:00:55 I've installed syncevolution on my n900 and it fails to connect because of the hostname of my server has AAAA records Feb 12 21:01:49 however the good question is if libcurl is shipping with the maemo platform or not Feb 12 21:02:05 (it's likely that it is, but not impossible that it isn't) Feb 12 21:02:43 and if it's not part of the default package then you should probably file the bug against syncevolution directly and ask that they link against a libcurl that has your bug fixed Feb 12 21:03:48 I wonder if there's a workaround Feb 12 21:03:50 waitasec Feb 12 21:03:56 if the latest libcurl itself still has this bug I recommend filing it upstream and then adding a maemo enhancement pointing to the upstream bug basically saying "when this is fixed please get it downstream asap" Feb 12 21:04:37 mmm Feb 12 21:05:09 It will be for tomorrow then Feb 12 21:05:10 or you could ask the syncevolution guys for their opinion Feb 12 21:05:41 does anybody know the guy how made the port? Feb 12 21:06:08 try adding ipv4 = 1 to ~/.curlrc Feb 12 21:07:17 grrr.... scratchbox failing to compile against libraries already available. Feb 12 21:07:40 satmd: thx Feb 12 21:07:44 but that still a bug :) Feb 12 21:08:10 true Feb 12 21:08:36 though tuning the config should be easy in postinstall Feb 12 21:08:52 * satmd prefers getting ipv6 because Feb 12 21:08:56 http://maemo.org/profile/view/pohly/ -> http://www.estamos.de/ -> email address can be found Feb 12 21:09:16 .. my guess is that curl was built with ipv6 support, but the adress family is not (yet?) supported on maemo Feb 12 21:09:25 satmd: I would prefere Ipv6 support too :) Feb 12 21:09:59 bigon: but since connectivity tools are not ready for this yet, that'll be a mid-term goal at best Feb 12 21:10:15 at least to see it builtin Feb 12 21:10:53 satmd: so what should I do? contact syncevolution guys? Feb 12 21:11:19 no, I'd rather blame the curl build itself Feb 12 21:11:26 packaging/build mistake Feb 12 21:13:07 $ LANG=C LC_ALL=C curl http://www.kame.net/ -v Feb 12 21:13:10 ipv4=1 in .curlrc doesn't seems to work Feb 12 21:13:11 * Trying 2001:200:0:8002:203:47ff:fea5:3085... Network is unreachable Feb 12 21:13:11 * Trying 203.178.141.194... connected Feb 12 21:13:18 mmm Feb 12 21:13:34 I blamed curl because of http://www.mayrhofer.eu.org/Default.aspx?pageid=117 Feb 12 21:13:36 that's the rfc defined behaviour on systems with correct stacks Feb 12 21:14:19 can you retry my test above? Feb 12 21:14:22 on the n900? Feb 12 21:14:29 -n900+maemo Feb 12 21:15:07 i've got problem with FM transmitter in N900 Feb 12 21:15:26 basicaly i have problem finding any free frequency in UK Feb 12 21:15:33 mmm only the lib on my n900 not the exec Feb 12 21:16:03 :( Feb 12 21:19:24 well and of course on scratchbox it work because Ive ipv6 connectivity Feb 12 21:19:32 well it will be for tomorrow Feb 12 21:20:17 syncevolution on the terminal... any messages of use? Feb 12 21:20:53 the same than here http://www.mayrhofer.eu.org/Default.aspx?pageid=117 : "CurlTransport Failure: couldn't connect to host" Feb 12 21:21:38 I really need to go now Feb 12 21:22:32 well, ok, see you later Feb 12 21:22:36 thx Feb 12 21:23:51 the site just confirms my assumptions Feb 12 21:24:06 ipv6-build on non-ipv6 kernel Feb 12 21:38:36 heh Feb 12 21:39:14 this is why I like how iTunes maintains a database of file paths and metadata Feb 12 21:39:32 * ml-mobile waits for the media player to settle down Feb 12 21:44:21 ~curse MMS Feb 12 21:44:23 May the fleas of a thousand camels infest your most sensitive regions, MMS ! Feb 12 21:47:12 what formats for ringtones does the n900 support Feb 12 21:47:43 all of them Feb 12 21:47:58 and if it doesn't then you can always write some code for it Feb 12 21:52:16 it does not support "all of them" Feb 12 21:52:26 midi? Feb 12 21:52:27 mod? Feb 12 21:52:31 mp3? ogg? Feb 12 21:52:32 =P Feb 12 21:52:39 mp3 and possibly ogg Feb 12 21:52:44 no midi, no polyphonic Feb 12 21:52:58 hmmk Feb 12 21:53:38 no per-caller ringtones Feb 12 21:59:35 eh i never used those Feb 12 21:59:41 but i do like midi ringtones Feb 12 22:00:26 dracflamloc: you can convert MIDIs to MP3s if you really want them Feb 12 22:00:51 yea too much effort Feb 12 22:00:52 =p Feb 12 22:04:02 Woo! Total Carnage! (all angry birds levels 3*'d) Feb 12 22:04:51 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wo-gGes6qig&feature=player_embedded#at=128 Feb 12 22:05:01 * RST38h goes to sleep happy Feb 12 22:05:50 so where is that ini file Feb 12 22:06:25 /usr/share/hildon-desktop Feb 12 22:06:49 is there a manual way to turn portrait mode off? Feb 12 22:07:14 I'm pretty sure it's a bug. I'm getting everything in portrait mode, including things not designed to work in portrait mode Feb 12 22:07:17 like the desktop Feb 12 22:07:47 reboot. Feb 12 22:07:48 pekuja: did ou try opening keyboard? Feb 12 22:07:53 moo__: yes Feb 12 22:07:58 or is it more persistent... Feb 12 22:08:13 it's persistent. that's why I'm asking Feb 12 22:09:09 I guess I'll just reboot. Feb 12 22:09:13 pekuja: close kboard, start browser Feb 12 22:09:18 twist and turn, open keyboard Feb 12 22:09:31 didn't try starting browser Feb 12 22:09:49 I'll try that the next time this happens Feb 12 22:12:28 oh frals lives still Feb 12 22:13:11 frals if you die soon what do you want to contribute? Feb 12 22:14:01 hail the MMS specification Feb 12 22:14:08 ;) Feb 12 22:14:14 new fmms-version Feb 12 22:14:16 what's new? =) Feb 12 22:14:48 depends which version your upgrading from, most likely bugfixes only.. if you already seen the improved ui ;o Feb 12 22:15:12 ok :) Feb 12 22:15:24 the new ui is nice ;) Feb 12 22:16:00 how many pixels wide are the launcher icons, anyone know? Feb 12 22:30:31 whats the best music player for n900 Feb 12 22:31:32 RST38h, robogeisha? Feb 12 22:32:13 zerojay, ping? Feb 12 22:32:38 * lcuk thinks the new ui rocks too frals Feb 12 22:35:23 GeneralAntilles: Yo. Feb 12 22:35:57 GeneralAntilles: With a quickness, man. Feb 12 22:36:13 zerojay, add a Display Name Feb 12 22:36:23 AdFlashBlock CSS Feb 12 22:36:25 so, i can snooze the alarm by turning it over, can i set it so it gets stopped after turning over? Feb 12 22:37:03 GeneralAntilles: I'll do that when I get back from this Street Fighter 4 tournament that I'm about to leave for. Feb 12 22:37:18 GeneralAntilles: I'm packaging with py2deb, so I'm not sure if it supports those nice names. Feb 12 22:37:21 zerojay, lol Feb 12 22:37:26 Fail Feb 12 22:37:41 No, I plan on winning. :) Feb 12 22:37:57 zerojay, Street Fighter. Still fail. :D Feb 12 22:38:31 You just broke the first rule of street fighter club! Feb 12 22:38:37 lol Feb 12 22:38:44 "Do you know how to run mods in quake 3... I dropped the folder in .q3a/base3q but it doesn't appear in mods menu. Can you help me?" Feb 12 22:38:48 Dunno what stone you've been living under, but it's bigger than ever. Feb 12 22:38:50 bbl Feb 12 22:38:52 WHY does this person think I'm the man to contact? Feb 12 22:39:29 GeneralAntilles: Because you are SO awesome. Feb 12 22:39:48 derf, oh, right, that. ;) Feb 12 22:39:51 * SpeedEvil nods. Feb 12 22:39:55 He is so awesome. Feb 12 22:40:09 The light-meter pins every time he bends over. Feb 12 22:40:14 I know. It can be a terrible burden to bear. Feb 12 22:40:14 And that's with it in scotland. Feb 12 22:40:22 But you're awesome enough to bear it. Feb 12 22:40:37 That's just how awesome you are. Feb 12 22:40:44 not without editing the code, it seems Feb 12 22:40:49 * SpeedEvil ponders getting up and trying to average main camera PNGs to pickup stars Feb 12 22:41:25 Has someone ported panotools to the thing yet? Feb 12 22:41:52 SpeedEvil, the main camera takes jpgs Feb 12 22:42:42 lcuk: I thought I got it to do png Feb 12 22:43:53 /usr/bin/gst-launch v4l2camsrc device=/dev/video0 num-buffers=1 \! video/x-raw-yuv,width=2592,height=1968 \! ffmpegcolorspace \! pngenc\! filesink location=/home/user/MyDocs/capture/test$x$y.png Feb 12 22:44:49 SpeedEvil, thats different then Feb 12 22:44:55 SpeedEvil: summing up a 250 snapshots, taken with N900 in scripting mode mounted on a syncronus motor stand... that's be quite interesting thing to try :-D Feb 12 22:45:00 i thought you meant the pictures just taken with the main cam Feb 12 22:45:22 if its a full sync stand you can get proper direciton anyway Feb 12 22:45:55 http://pastebin.ca/1794840 Feb 12 22:46:07 above script Feb 12 22:46:12 though I diddn't do summing on camera Feb 12 22:47:57 nite all, sweet dreams Feb 12 22:48:01 * lcuk just blocked and deleted all google bus contacts Feb 12 22:48:26 * lcuk wonders what aSIMULAwrk is doin in wrk Feb 12 23:04:32 Hey, trying to flash a Nokia 770 on Ubuntu 9.10, I'm getting "Error claiming USB interface: Device or resource busy" even after running modprobe -r cdc_phonet. Can anyone help? Feb 12 23:04:45 hum... anyone of you using this kernel-flasher-maemo kernel? Feb 12 23:05:30 chombee: grab static flasher and sudo Feb 12 23:05:30 Also tried modprobe -r phonet and it says "FATAL: Module phonet is in use." but I don't know what's using it Feb 12 23:05:41 no phonet in 770 afaik Feb 12 23:05:46 Yeah I am using sudo Feb 12 23:05:52 I'll try the statuc flasher Feb 12 23:07:29 Same error message with the static flasher Feb 12 23:09:27 shut device down completely, plug out battery, put in usb, put in battery, turn on Feb 12 23:09:44 OH, ran modprobe again and now it's working Feb 12 23:09:57 with the static flasher Feb 12 23:10:11 Putting OS2007HE on a 770 Feb 12 23:13:41 Ok! Looking at a 2007 desktop. Thanks for the help Feb 12 23:14:51 While I'm here, my OS2006 was saying that my memory card is corrupt. Can I use the 770 to reformat it? Feb 12 23:18:00 OS2007HE is a _lot_ faster. I think ym OS2006 must have had problems, it was really slow and crashing a lot Feb 12 23:29:23 ceh900: yes, me Feb 12 23:30:57 * GeneralAntilles chuckles at the Ask the Council thread. Feb 12 23:31:23 i don't understand how is that ovi thing related to maemo and the n900. Feb 12 23:31:57 ovi is the commercial 'app-store' Feb 12 23:32:03 so err, how do i get my shellscript to be run as root, since setuid bit seems to be ignored on shellscripts Feb 12 23:32:09 is ovi supported by maemo/n900 or is it just for the n97 and alike Feb 12 23:32:38 frals: add it to sudo? Feb 12 23:33:21 timeless_mbp: where do i get credit for demanding that browser pauses javascript? Feb 12 23:33:35 uhsf: ovi supports n900. barely. Feb 12 23:33:38 ovi maps for example. the maps application seems to run fine but lacks maps. do i have to buy maps at ovi store or are there other good maps available for free? Feb 12 23:33:47 also, ovi has no meaning Feb 12 23:33:53 "Ovi" is too many things :) Feb 12 23:33:57 its at best, a brand Feb 12 23:34:04 ovi store supports n900 Feb 12 23:34:30 pwnguin: your typing is mostly stupid Feb 12 23:34:36 "Ovi Maps" means 4 different things atleast... There's the web-based ovi maps, there's the old s60 ovi maps, the new s60 ovi maps with free turn by turn navigation, and maemo ovi maps which doesn't have turn by turn voice nav Feb 12 23:34:47 it's just because nokia spread ovi links all over the default maemo interface otherwise i wouldn't have cared much Feb 12 23:35:50 pupnik_: its not my fault ovi is the mobile .NET Feb 12 23:36:36 ShadowJK: what is your favorite among these 4? Feb 12 23:36:54 pwnguin: you are a fart Feb 12 23:37:12 pupnik: what did i do to incur this? Feb 12 23:37:17 i suppose new s60 are best but not supported on the n900? Feb 12 23:37:31 you do nothing Feb 12 23:37:56 uhsf, well the s60 one is actually useful for me to have in the car Feb 12 23:38:05 uhsf: s60 is a different OS. no s6 emulators on n900 that i know of. Feb 12 23:38:06 show me anything you do to help maemo Feb 12 23:38:12 Kinda. Its choice of routes are excentric at best Feb 12 23:38:47 pupnik, even farts are useful Feb 12 23:38:56 im not Feb 12 23:39:00 you dont want to explode Feb 12 23:39:26 pupnik: what do you think i should be doing? Feb 12 23:39:44 make something Feb 12 23:40:03 its on my todo list Feb 12 23:40:14 me too :) Feb 12 23:40:27 i suck too Feb 12 23:40:35 maybe i should do some QA for the -devel apps i use Feb 12 23:41:04 pwnguin: it's not the real pupnik. it's just a troll who wants to discredit pupnik. ignore him Feb 12 23:41:21 i can't tell anymore Feb 12 23:41:34 i hate suckage Feb 12 23:42:15 maybe i'll build a version of gdigicam that leaves the red light off while recording Feb 12 23:42:37 pwnguin, cool Feb 12 23:42:41 anything. do anything Feb 12 23:42:53 whenever i do n900-n900 recording i can see the light Feb 12 23:43:07 its a trivial patch Feb 12 23:43:12 FCC is gonna come and kick your ass. :P Feb 12 23:43:15 heh Feb 12 23:43:38 pwnguin, call it "PervertCam", make it scan for WLANs, and if there are no WLANs within range that are in the user's list, assume the user is away from home, and if the user tries to use the PervertCam when away from home, make device go "awoooga awoooga! Pervert Alert!" Feb 12 23:44:15 but i haven't set up the build sandbox yet, so it'll take a bit of work Feb 12 23:44:53 its a bit disheartening to have a 'work through raeddit tutorial' todo when it's pretty clear the future is QT Feb 12 23:45:14 what's raeddit? Feb 12 23:45:26 its a reddit ap Feb 12 23:45:27 rapid aplication development comes to mind Feb 12 23:45:28 app Feb 12 23:45:44 its in extras-something Feb 12 23:46:47 t-tan: i cant tell the trolls anymore. the real marat mocked my photo of my literal first arduino project Feb 12 23:47:26 It's the internet. We're all trolls. Feb 12 23:47:45 its IRC. we have tools to solve that Feb 12 23:48:01 /muteall Feb 12 23:48:21 The tools have been converted to padded mittens, courtesy of freenode :) Feb 12 23:48:41 I still need to review the new ircd info. Feb 12 23:49:14 seriously though. right now im editing some audio from a LUG meeting Feb 12 23:49:21 GeneralAntilles: may I cite you in the future? :) Feb 12 23:49:23 none of it is probably maemo helpful though Feb 12 23:49:32 unless maemo.org wants to use django Feb 12 23:49:35 t-tan, feel free. Feb 12 23:50:19 and about QT Feb 12 23:50:32 should I program for N900 using hildon (gtk) or QT? Feb 12 23:50:39 is there such a thing as hildonized QT? Feb 12 23:50:44 Yes? Feb 12 23:50:47 It's in the repos. Feb 12 23:50:49 resistance is futile. We're trolls. Feb 12 23:51:07 Personally, I think it's probably a good time to start with Qt 4.6 if you don't have an existing codebase. Feb 12 23:51:17 trolls, so you mean trolltech, i.e. qt Feb 12 23:51:18 PR1.2 is around the corner and it should be shipping official Qt 4.6 Feb 12 23:51:32 ok Feb 12 23:51:38 theres actually going to be a pr1.2? Feb 12 23:51:41 I'm sorry, the trolls were assimilated. They're Nokians now. Feb 12 23:51:53 pwnguin, and several more after according to reliable sources. Feb 12 23:51:58 interesting Feb 12 23:52:02 and nice Feb 12 23:52:15 i hope it upgrades better than last time Feb 12 23:52:17 pwnguin, you actually thought they were going to stop updating Maemo between now and Maemo 6 sometime at the end of this or beginning of next year? Feb 12 23:52:29 * GeneralAntilles has heard rumors of a PR2 and PR3, even. Feb 12 23:52:44 ptl: Qt Feb 12 23:52:53 GeneralAntilles: im used to being abused and neglected by cellular providers. im american Feb 12 23:52:55 luke-jr: that's two votes for QT now. :) Feb 12 23:53:07 ptl: it's objectively superior in every way :) Feb 12 23:53:17 any GTK votes will be from fanboys Feb 12 23:53:22 ^ troll Feb 12 23:53:38 I know that, it's just that I feel it'd eat too much memory by having libraries that do the same thing in memory simultaneously Feb 12 23:53:42 Xlib! Feb 12 23:54:03 Xlib, yes! with tcl/tk! Feb 12 23:54:11 ptl, there are already some qt using things on your N900 Feb 12 23:54:17 though i dont know if it's anything open all the time Feb 12 23:54:41 GTK probably only makes sense if you need to use C Feb 12 23:54:44 is there a qt way of doing a systray app? Feb 12 23:54:50 for maemo 5 Feb 12 23:54:57 what's the QT license these days? Feb 12 23:55:10 LGPL Feb 12 23:55:13 heh, I was going to say that GTK seems much more inefficient.. but QT seems hugely bloated Feb 12 23:55:25 wasn't it GPL at some point, with a paid-for commercial licensing option? Feb 12 23:55:31 or am I imagining that? Feb 12 23:55:33 yes Feb 12 23:55:52 is it true that Qt4.6 is much smaller due dropped Qt3 support? Feb 12 23:55:59 ShadowJK: Qt includes a variety of higher-level features that might be considered "bloat", but they're modular Feb 12 23:56:12 LGPL 2.1 Feb 12 23:56:14 t-tan: Qt3 support was never mandatory in the first place Feb 12 23:56:43 with a clause for exception Feb 12 23:56:51 for something that I don't understand very well Feb 12 23:56:56 ah, they added the exception? Feb 12 23:57:11 ptl: for C++ code, LGPL is effectively GPL if you use templates Feb 12 23:57:12 it seems that you can incorporate header stuff into your program Feb 12 23:57:13 which Qt does Feb 12 23:57:20 libstdc++ has the same exception Feb 12 23:57:30 didn't know that Feb 12 23:57:41 but I don't plan to do proprietary stuff anyway Feb 12 23:58:09 GPL is fine for me Feb 12 23:58:26 I'm not all that excited about the next maemo device anyway... it'll be Omap3 and probably 256M ram still? boring Feb 12 23:58:43 ShadowJK: if it solves /opt Feb 12 23:58:45 then what? Feb 12 23:58:51 lol Feb 12 23:59:03 I just know that N900 is a dream come true. A cellphone that has a terminal application? That I can troubleshoot using shell commands? Feb 12 23:59:04 ShadowJK: seriously? that's confirmed? Feb 12 23:59:12 that's just f*cking unbelievable. Feb 12 23:59:19 ptl: ... Feb 12 23:59:21 luke-jr, I forget the details, but omap3 and multitouch Feb 12 23:59:28 ShadowJK: or USB OTG Feb 12 23:59:32 ShadowJK: IIRC, some OMAP3 has 512 MB RAM now Feb 12 23:59:37 there are certain things i can imagine adding Feb 12 23:59:39 hardware wise Feb 12 23:59:40 I don't give a shit about OTG... but host mode would be nice Feb 12 23:59:50 whats the diff between otg and host mode Feb 12 23:59:57 luke-jr: what? I'm not exaggerating. It has a few minor flaws and it is greatly usable. And it has a hell of flexibility. Feb 13 00:00:13 nokia did get it. Feb 13 00:00:15 ptl: it's not a phone... and not the first of its kind Feb 13 00:00:18 But if I wont be able to reliably tap on the right line of 10pt size text in xchat anymore I'll be annoyed Feb 13 00:00:33 luke-jr: what was the first of its kind? openmoko? Feb 13 00:00:52 ptl: OpenMoko was the first free software phone Feb 13 00:00:52 luke-jr: it's the first viable device of this kind with a major brand supporting it. Feb 13 00:00:58 ptl: ok Feb 13 00:01:11 ShadowJK: i think the n900 can't do turn by turn navigation because it's not a real gps but only data sent to gsm antennas is that true? Feb 13 00:01:14 openmoko was maybe too idealistic Feb 13 00:01:29 uhsf, no it is not true Feb 13 00:01:31 not a real gps? it is Feb 13 00:01:40 uhsf, N900 has real gps Feb 13 00:01:43 uhsf: no it isn't Feb 13 00:01:55 uhsf: N900 has aGPS Feb 13 00:02:15 openmoko was too underfunded Feb 13 00:02:15 ok ty Feb 13 00:02:17 luke-jr: you are wrong Feb 13 00:02:26 luke-jr: there was trolltech manufactured one Feb 13 00:02:30 ptl: OpenMoko just didn't work IIRC Feb 13 00:02:46 openmoko worked, just not very well Feb 13 00:02:46 and openmoko was just a disaster Feb 13 00:02:53 luke-jr: I have no experience with it, by a friend of mine said it had many bugs, even hardware bugsa Feb 13 00:02:56 *bugs Feb 13 00:03:06 openmoko was 2007's pandora Feb 13 00:03:13 1st it was manufactured by somebody else than nokia Feb 13 00:03:14 ShadowJK: uhsf: what is a "real" GPS? all GPS has software somewhere; in the N900, it's in the phone Feb 13 00:03:17 even the GSM signal was frequently lost Feb 13 00:03:39 ShadowJK: OMAP3 supports 512MB of RAM just fine: http://www.igep-platform.com/ Feb 13 00:04:12 ShadowJK: and I think I read somewhere that this is still not a limit, will try to dig the link now Feb 13 00:04:21 ssvb: it should support 4G Feb 13 00:04:27 lol Feb 13 00:04:42 multitouch might be nice for using the phone as a bluetooth game controller. Feb 13 00:04:49 jacekowski: are you sure? Feb 13 00:05:00 so the best option right now for gps is web based ovi maps because it features turn by turn navigation and it's free but i suppose these maps are not the most detailed Feb 13 00:05:08 ssvb, I didn't mean to say that omap3 only supports 256M ram... I was trying to imply that it is my belief that nokia will not put any more than 256M in the next device :) Feb 13 00:05:17 ssvb: yes Feb 13 00:05:30 ssvb: ARM core can support it Feb 13 00:05:31 I didn't know ovi maps on the web had turn by turn navigation Feb 13 00:05:45 i wish the garmin gps app and maps were ported to maemo Feb 13 00:05:51 ssvb: and when i looked into docs omap3 has all 32 address lines Feb 13 00:05:56 * pwnguin was at garmin HQ today Feb 13 00:06:09 uhsf: i'm working on hacking tomtom Feb 13 00:06:15 uhsf: to run on n900 Feb 13 00:06:31 but my router is causing me lot of grief Feb 13 00:06:37 they even gave me pizza and told me how they've got 51 open positions Feb 13 00:06:50 because it randomly stops forwarding packets between network nodes Feb 13 00:07:33 and i'm pretty much sure it's illegal Feb 13 00:07:38 jacekowski: why not garmin it better than tom tom Feb 13 00:07:42 no Feb 13 00:08:01 garmin sucks Feb 13 00:08:08 garmins already run linux Feb 13 00:08:11 i've had both and tomtom is clearly superior product Feb 13 00:08:14 tomtom runs linux Feb 13 00:08:23 I like tomtom... It doesn't suggest I should drive on roads that I wouldn't want to travel on even with snowmobile Feb 13 00:08:35 (like Ovi Maps on S60 does) Feb 13 00:08:53 the maemo select site for angry birds is out? All I get is a blank page Feb 13 00:09:01 It's kinda cool that they have so detailed map data that little things like that are included, but it's pretty silly to suggest I drive on it :/ Feb 13 00:09:03 and it was only company to opposed microsoft when they started doing that ugly FAT patent thing Feb 13 00:13:16 ShadowJK, jacekowski: OK, here they say the RAM limit is 1GB: http://groups.google.com/group/beagleboard/browse_thread/thread/af976554cd8b8193 Feb 13 00:15:42 Let's hope that someone manufactures such a RAM chip, and let's hope that Nokia uses it :) Feb 13 00:15:58 hmhm Feb 13 00:16:13 SDRAM Controller (SDRC) 16, 32-bit Memory Controller With 16, 32-bit Memory Controller With Feb 13 00:16:16 http://focus.ti.com/lit/ds/symlink/omap3530.pdf Feb 13 00:16:33 all packages available in extras should be available somewhere in http://maemo.org/downloads/Maemo5/ right? Feb 13 00:17:51 Corsac, assuming they're in user/*, yes. Feb 13 00:18:34 I can't find python-scapy (source scapy) which I've uploaded to extras-devel last week or so Feb 13 00:18:44 and which is available using apt-get Feb 13 00:19:04 If N910 has 1 GB RAM and is usable with free software, I'm getting it <.< Feb 13 00:19:40 Corsac, Downloads is only stuff in Extras Feb 13 00:19:45 Not stuff in -testing or -devel. Feb 13 00:19:53 oh ok Feb 13 00:20:14 jacekowski: your quote from this pdf is incomplete and ends at the most interesting part "... With 1G-Byte Total Address Space" (whatever it means) Feb 13 00:20:30 Corsac, search here: http://maemo.org/packages/ Feb 13 00:20:45 i thought i copied it Feb 13 00:20:47 but nvm Feb 13 00:21:05 Does I/O have to live in that 1G too? Feb 13 00:21:41 well, it's only memory controller address space Feb 13 00:21:42 Warning: This package does not have the required bugtracker link specified! Feb 13 00:21:49 so i don't think so Feb 13 00:21:54 bugtracker for upstream or for packaging? Feb 13 00:22:31 packaging I'd say Feb 13 00:24:32 is this page appearing to you guys? http://maemo.nokia.com/maemo-select/applications/angry-birds-free/ Feb 13 00:24:37 all I get is a blank page Feb 13 00:24:41 :[ Feb 13 00:25:32 me too Feb 13 00:25:48 blank here Feb 13 00:26:09 I'll install it later then. Thanks Feb 13 00:38:52 Corsac, , http://wiki.maemo.org/Extras-testing/QA_Checklist#Lack_of_bug_reporting_database and http://wiki.maemo.org/Prepare_your_application_for_testing Feb 13 00:39:17 hey when's Harmattan supposed to come out? Feb 13 00:40:09 Dantonic, Q4 2010 or Q1 2011 seem like reasonable dates. Feb 13 00:40:25 Dantonic, the announced timeline for the SDK is very similar to Fremantle's. Feb 13 00:41:06 ah I see Feb 13 00:41:20 so what was supposed to come out Q2 2010? Feb 13 00:41:25 But no date for anything beyond SDK release has been announced. Feb 13 00:41:37 2H2010 != Q2 2010 Feb 13 00:41:59 oh was it second half? 2010? Feb 13 00:42:07 thought it was Q2 I've read Q2 in a few places Feb 13 00:42:27 It's probably be misreported. Feb 13 00:42:34 I see Feb 13 00:42:38 december is in the 2nd half of 2010 Feb 13 00:42:44 right :P Feb 13 00:43:01 As reporters are wont to do. Feb 13 00:43:32 I'm assuming from some of Qgils latest posts there's a change that Maemo6 might come to the N900 in some form... Feb 13 00:43:34 I doubt very much that Nokia has anything even remotely resembling a firmish date at this point, so. ;) Feb 13 00:43:40 Dantonic, who the hell knows. Feb 13 00:43:47 Dantonic, Nokia may not even really be sure on that one. Feb 13 00:43:48 ya I know I'm hoping... Feb 13 00:44:12 I've just come upon my first real disappointment with the N900.. Feb 13 00:44:24 The only thing resembling a straightforward answer I've seen on that subject was from Jose-Luis at BCN. Feb 13 00:44:25 Ogg support Feb 13 00:44:34 Dantonic: what's wrong with it? Feb 13 00:44:38 and that was essentially: No multitouch, no Maemo 6 support. Feb 13 00:44:55 Speaking of updates; pr1.2 is going to include qt4.6? Feb 13 00:45:08 well the ogg-support package allow the playing of vorbis files, but its not efficient... whatever codec they're using Feb 13 00:45:13 glyph: I suspect it will Feb 13 00:45:15 high cpu usage Feb 13 00:45:19 asj_: Oh, it's official Feb 13 00:45:24 drains battery Feb 13 00:45:28 glyph: don't know Feb 13 00:45:29 asj_: http://www.sjaensch.org/blog/nokia-ship-qt-46-pr12-replace-qt-45/ Feb 13 00:45:50 It wasn't really a question, the question is more like "how can I stop this idiocy from breaking my device" :) Feb 13 00:46:00 glyph: ah there's where I read it then Feb 13 00:46:08 I spent hours ripping and converting my CD collection, then moved it to the N900... and found out this... Feb 13 00:46:32 all of my qt4.5 apps will stop working, and my rootfs will instantly fill up with the update as a C++ compiler pukes out 20MB of useless garbage there :( Feb 13 00:46:50 glyph: what? Feb 13 00:47:22 glyph, I don't think it's necessarily hard yet, but it looks likely. Feb 13 00:47:46 is anyone working on a good mplayer frontend? Feb 13 00:48:01 luke-jr: I currently have 14MB free on my rootfs. Any idea how I could free up more space in preparation for this update? Qt _by itself_ is like 25MB Feb 13 00:48:20 glyph: replaces... Feb 13 00:48:20 glyph, rootfs is compressed, so it'll be less than that. Feb 13 00:48:47 (and I see no reason apt should put its temporary files on rootfs) Feb 13 00:48:51 and that was essentially: No multitouch, no Maemo 6 support Feb 13 00:48:52 Qt 4.5 is optified, so. Feb 13 00:49:09 luke-jr, just symlink. Feb 13 00:49:21 DOes that have to do with capcitive vs resistive? Feb 13 00:49:38 Dantonic, yes. Feb 13 00:49:54 I just read somewhere that maemo6 should support both Feb 13 00:49:57 Dantonic, although there's a multitouch resistive tech they could use. . . . (Stantum) Feb 13 00:50:06 right Feb 13 00:50:44 I don't think qt4.5 is optified? Feb 13 00:51:02 The one preinstalled on N900 I mean Feb 13 00:51:33 There's no pre-installed Qt 4.5 Feb 13 00:51:51 The first Qt that'll be pre-installed should be shipping with Qt 4.6 and, yes, that'll be on rootfs. Feb 13 00:52:03 The Qt from Ovi Store may not be optified. Feb 13 00:52:24 how is the "stop other apps using sound when receiving a call" implemented in maemo? Feb 13 00:52:32 If I try uninstall libqt4-gui, mp-fremantle-generic-pr will also be uninstalled Feb 13 00:52:58 will every media player automatically stop when receiving a call? Feb 13 00:53:01 uhsf: just guessing here, but I would say pulseaudio Feb 13 00:53:14 apt-cache depends mp-fremantle-generic-pr|grep qt Feb 13 00:54:05 does mpd mutes when receiving call? mplayer? Feb 13 00:54:36 GeneralAntilles, there's a pre-installed Qt on rootfs (4.5) Feb 13 00:54:43 VDVsx, with PR1.1? Feb 13 00:54:44 i really have lots of questions brain storming about how i'm gonna use my n900 Feb 13 00:54:47 and 4.6 will be there too Feb 13 00:54:49 yes Feb 13 00:54:55 Ah, right, right. Feb 13 00:54:58 * GeneralAntilles is recalling now. Feb 13 00:55:02 * GeneralAntilles blames the good wine. Feb 13 00:55:09 mplayer cannot be used in the default media player can it? Feb 13 00:55:11 wait, there's an optified *and* a non-optified 4.5? Feb 13 00:55:46 there's some sync stuff that depends on Qt, nothing more Feb 13 00:55:56 okay Feb 13 00:55:57 can recall the name of the app/feature Feb 13 00:55:59 VDVsx: thanks! Feb 13 00:56:15 That indicates that I can happily continue ignoring qt for the time being :) Feb 13 00:56:16 the exchange support Feb 13 00:56:34 glyph, 4.5 is not optified, current version of 4.6 is Feb 13 00:56:48 and then there are some extra qt libraries, and newer qt libraries, and you can never be sure when installing software depending on qt whether your rootfs is going to cry or not, so I don't install any Feb 13 00:56:56 ShadowJK, yeah, that's it Feb 13 00:58:11 glyph, from a developer POV you shouldn't ignore Qt, for a user POV for now you can :) Feb 13 00:58:53 VDVsx: well, I bought an n900 so I could write pygtk apps Feb 13 00:59:04 ;) Feb 13 00:59:09 VDVsx: I am well aware that nokia is trying to ruin that for us ;) Feb 13 00:59:55 I doubt I'm going to be developing more than hacks for my own personal use, so even in the future of maemo 6 I'm sure the community gtk support will be good enough Feb 13 01:00:08 certainly better than the other phones that run gtk ;-) Feb 13 01:00:31 is pyqt more difficult than pygtk? Feb 13 01:00:37 my background is also GTK+ and I love Gnome, but I've to admit that Qt is far ahead Feb 13 01:01:06 ptl: lots of people have different opinions about that. nokia's official opinion is that qt is better :) Feb 13 01:01:27 my opinion does not happen to agree with that Feb 13 01:01:48 glyph, the future will tell :) Feb 13 01:01:58 GNOME 3 might be usable if it were Qt based :) Feb 13 01:02:00 why would gtk be better, since it does not strictly follow object-oriented programming and has less features? Feb 13 01:02:07 not flaming Feb 13 01:02:11 I really want to know Feb 13 01:02:21 ptl: it isn't. Feb 13 01:02:24 luke-jr, did you saw Gnome 3 plans ? Feb 13 01:02:32 javascript :D Feb 13 01:02:35 It feels much lighter in terms of memory pressure than qt :/ Feb 13 01:02:36 VDVsx: fail Feb 13 01:02:50 But that's probably because most QT software I've seen is actually KDE :\ Feb 13 01:02:51 * VDVsx will stick with gnome 2.xx :D Feb 13 01:02:52 * GeneralAntilles throws a "see" at VDVsx. Feb 13 01:02:52 ptl: it's faster, smaller, it has a stable ABI (in other words it's possible to write applications you don't have to recompile for every minor update), it is more robust (the average pygtk program will emit some warnings, but the average pyqt program will segfault) Feb 13 01:03:21 glyph: Qt's ABI is stable, n00b Feb 13 01:03:22 If it really is faster, that's scary, because GTK does alot of braindead stuff like redraw a widget 6 times in a row for no apparent reason Feb 13 01:03:32 * ShadowJK used to have a computer slow enough to see the braindamage Feb 13 01:03:46 ShadowJK: Yep! qt will redraw that same widget 30 times ;-) Feb 13 01:03:47 Qt is faster too, by far Feb 13 01:04:04 I heard QT caches Atoms so it's faster over network atleast Feb 13 01:04:08 someone once modified Qt to use glib's event loop. it was too slow to use Feb 13 01:04:40 luke-jr: I'm familiar with that effort, but it wasn't really a problem with either qt or glib; the effort itself was kind of broken Feb 13 01:05:01 glyph: regardless, the last time I tried GNOME it was too slow to use period Feb 13 01:05:22 I was an afterstep user until 2000, Gnome user until 2004 or so, whenever the great gnomish feature purge happened, and KDE user until KDE4 when it became unusably slow, had text corruption in the terminal, and crashed far too often :/ Feb 13 01:05:38 luke-jr, I can say the same about KDE :D Feb 13 01:05:39 i was KDE user for long time Feb 13 01:05:41 luke-jr: everyone's experiences are different, but the last time I tried KDE, it crashed five or six times an hour Feb 13 01:05:46 ShadowJK: KDE 4 isn't unusably slow if you disable compositing Feb 13 01:05:48 i've never been using gnome Feb 13 01:05:49 and now I'm using xfce. It leaks a gigabyte of RAM a month, but it's tolerable and hasn't pushed me to switch again Feb 13 01:05:50 I seriously don't understand how anyone can use it Feb 13 01:05:53 or gtk based apps Feb 13 01:06:00 glyph: sounds like an alpha release Feb 13 01:06:07 lucas: no, it was a release well past 4.0 Feb 13 01:06:12 luke-jr, it was disabled. Not that it made any difference in speed Feb 13 01:06:34 anyhow, if you want to try Qt, install Arora or Psi Feb 13 01:06:41 luke-jr: what are those? Feb 13 01:06:48 browser and IM Feb 13 01:06:49 Arora is a Qt-only browser Feb 13 01:06:51 Psi is IM Feb 13 01:06:51 This is good for Linux. The fact that major parts of the system might remain broken for a while (gnome with the features purge, KDE with KDE4 unusability) because you can (temporarily) switch Feb 13 01:06:56 that was the same with me Feb 13 01:07:07 I used gnome for a few years. Switched to KDE. Then switched back to gnome Feb 13 01:07:17 ptl: you know what would be better for linux Feb 13 01:07:22 ptl: if people stop breaking shit all the time :) Feb 13 01:07:40 I have no real preference, though Feb 13 01:07:42 I am glad that I find myself using a mac during the HAL-removal and pulseaudio shitstorms Feb 13 01:07:51 glyph: no, I think it's positive, because it allows room for refactoring Feb 13 01:08:13 ptl: "refactoring", *by definition*, does not break anything Feb 13 01:08:20 ptl: I hate it when people use that term to mean "breaking lots of shit" Feb 13 01:08:23 Oh I tried to switch to gnome too after KDE4 stabbed me, but the feature purge damage was still too serious to get a usable desktop :) Feb 13 01:08:37 ptl: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Code_refactoring Feb 13 01:08:40 the problem here is that people keep mixing Qt with KDE, Qt is very stable can't say the same about KDE (I've to give another try ) :D Feb 13 01:08:49 this is a different kind of refactoring then. A kind of refactoring that revolutionizes everything, and has to fix all kinds of bugs again. :) Feb 13 01:09:12 VDVsx: I realize that. But, c.f. the news post I just put up: Qt still has no stable ABI, and still segfaults by default if you forget to intitialize the QApplication and the QContext and the QBullshitIDontCareAbout before making a window :) Feb 13 01:09:42 ptl: Yes, that kind of "refactoring" is called "shipping terrible software" Feb 13 01:09:45 but why do you fail to initialize such stuff? Feb 13 01:10:27 I love not having to deal with most of this stuff on OS X. :P Feb 13 01:10:28 ptl: because I want to type 'w = Window(); w.show(); main()' and get a basic application going, because that's all my application does Feb 13 01:10:29 glyph: I think that in practice things don't work that way... Every new code is broken in some way Feb 13 01:10:48 ptl: the five other things I need to bootstrap a qt app are totally irrelevant to me Feb 13 01:11:36 plus, I am a Python programmer. I am spoiled. I call a function with the wrong arguments, or at the wrong time, I expect to get an exception Feb 13 01:11:46 not a SIGABORT or a bus error Feb 13 01:11:57 GeneralAntilles: I love not being tied to that Jobs guy that tries to cut all my digital civil freedoms and rights! :) Feb 13 01:12:20 the upshot of this is that I can write GTK applications "live", just evaluating code as I go to experiment, but I can't experiment in pyqt, because every tiny misstep requires me to crash and restart Feb 13 01:12:31 glyph: ok, that's fair Feb 13 01:12:35 got your point Feb 13 01:12:52 you're right in that matter Feb 13 01:13:22 is pyqt that bad ? I doubt that, but never used Feb 13 01:13:24 ptl: also, my *personal* experience of qt applications reflects this design: minor programming errors in GTK applications tend to emit warnings or produce ugliness, whereas programming errors in QT applications result in crashes and core dumps Feb 13 01:13:31 glyph: Qt's ABI is and has always been stable, and segfaults on failure are a property of the language, not the interface Feb 13 01:13:35 ptl, meh, Mobile Mac OS X != Mac OS X Feb 13 01:13:51 GeneralAntilles: what about iPad? Is it mobile? Feb 13 01:14:04 glyph: don't blame Qt for PyQt's screwups Feb 13 01:14:27 ptl, it's Mobile Mac OS X. Feb 13 01:14:35 ptl, which is what makes it so depressingly hilarious. Feb 13 01:15:02 if Mac OS X does not have the same locking mechanisms as the mobile Mac OS X builds, that's just because users have been very vocal about this Feb 13 01:15:06 that's what I don't like Feb 13 01:15:31 if the pressure goes down on Apple, the features and freedom also go down Feb 13 01:15:44 you have to keep pressuring them otherwise they'll force you to use their devices like they want it and that's final. Feb 13 01:15:49 glyph: if an application is compiled with Qt 4.0.0, it will still run against Qt 4.6.0 Feb 13 01:16:21 luke-jr: I have seen places where that is not true, but then, I have also seen gtk applications fail to run, so I suppose I will believe you and hold hope for the future :) Feb 13 01:16:43 I can't 'be in peace' with apple because of this, GeneralAntilles Feb 13 01:17:06 it's like dealing with an enemy Feb 13 01:17:08 glyph: it is true for things like KDE themes that screw with internal structures instead of sticking with the API Feb 13 01:17:15 seriously having using GTK+ (C) and Qt (C++), IMHO Qt's design/features and code simplicity are much more sane and powerful than GTK+ there's a bit difference Feb 13 01:17:21 and as I said I love gnome :D Feb 13 01:17:29 you don't know whether they'll stab you if your turn your back to them Feb 13 01:17:43 ptl, the whole Apple Computer to Apple, Inc. think summarizes my problems with the company pretty well. Feb 13 01:17:50 ptl: Apple has always been an enemy :P Feb 13 01:18:06 ptl, as a long time Mac OS user and a former Newton user the iPad is particularly depressing for the what might've been's. Feb 13 01:18:51 GA: were you hoping it would be Newton, Phase 2? Feb 13 01:20:14 ds3, well, I wasn't particularly optimistic about the possibility. Feb 13 01:20:44 ds3, but Newton technologies combined with OS X's PC-grade level of openness (not the FSF definition) does give me warm fuzzy feelings. Feb 13 01:21:02 Although I think Maemo's use-case fits my needs better these days. Feb 13 01:21:22 I find the iPad to be too big Feb 13 01:21:26 Me too. Feb 13 01:21:36 I don't even want laptops that big Feb 13 01:21:54 ~5-6" screen is closer to the right size Feb 13 01:21:56 GeneralAntilles: okay Feb 13 01:22:03 infobot, forget 5-6" Feb 13 01:22:04 GeneralAntilles: i didn't have anything called '5-6"' to forget Feb 13 01:22:07 infobot, forget 5-6 Feb 13 01:22:08 i didn't have anything called '5-6' to forget, GeneralAntilles Feb 13 01:22:10 infobot, forget 5 Feb 13 01:22:11 GeneralAntilles: i forgot 5 Feb 13 01:22:33 ds3, I like my Mini 9 for a lot of reasons. Feb 13 01:22:50 ds3, but the itty-bitty keyboard pisses off hands that are used to buckling spring. ;) Feb 13 01:23:03 I don't really understand iPad Feb 13 01:23:10 GA: how's the build quality on the Mini 9? Feb 13 01:23:14 I thought it would be something like an ebook reader Feb 13 01:23:19 ds3, about Dell average. Feb 13 01:23:24 infobot: forget 5-6" screen Feb 13 01:23:25 luke-jr: i forgot 5-6" screen Feb 13 01:23:28 ds3, it aint a Macbook Pro but it's reasonable enough. Feb 13 01:23:31 but it wastes battery by having such a big bright screen. Feb 13 01:23:32 so probally disappointing Feb 13 01:23:42 ds3, I think it benefits a lot from being small. Feb 13 01:23:49 ds3, less room to flex, etc. Feb 13 01:23:51 also, it could be a device for, say, going to classes and writing down stuff. Feb 13 01:23:53 It's also fairly thick Feb 13 01:23:57 but the lack of connectivity spoils that. Feb 13 01:24:06 Basically, it's plastic. ;) Feb 13 01:24:08 GA: I am still very steamed at the eeePC falling apart right before my eyes Feb 13 01:24:13 by connectivity I mean compatibility with other devices/computers Feb 13 01:24:16 and no TS Feb 13 01:24:26 ds3, build quality feels better than the Eee. Feb 13 01:24:28 I still can't get a good use case for the iPad Feb 13 01:24:34 if dell did a TS, it might have moved it higher up Feb 13 01:24:38 GA: how long have you had it? Feb 13 01:24:39 ds3, it feels pretty solid in the hands. Feb 13 01:24:47 But I really don't abuse my electronics at all. Feb 13 01:24:53 Hrm, about a year now? Feb 13 01:25:14 It doesn't get a ton of use, though. Feb 13 01:25:28 ah Feb 13 01:25:44 maybe the duty cycle on these "netbooks" are pretty low then Feb 13 01:25:58 I noticed with the smartq7 that it's not any more portable than a netbook, so I might just have gotten a netbook instead Feb 13 01:26:22 ShadowJK, yeah, if it's not pocketable. . . . Feb 13 01:27:00 for pocketable and x86, aren't the WiBrain's and maybe the OQO2 the only options? Feb 13 01:28:17 disgusting question. What is you guys opinion about WinMobile? Feb 13 01:28:43 GeneralAntilles, oh that's not the issue Feb 13 01:29:15 It's like one of those books that are too big to read in bed Feb 13 01:29:51 ptl: epitome of unusability? :D Feb 13 01:30:02 You can bring it with you fine, but in practice you need a table to put it in for reading Feb 13 01:30:20 ShadowJK: I use my laptop in bed quite a lot. Feb 13 01:30:43 ShadowJK: screen almost at 180 degrees - with it in line with ribs Feb 13 01:30:52 held with pinky fingers. Feb 13 01:31:00 Or alternatively, on one side. Feb 13 01:31:33 Small laptop - x60s Feb 13 01:31:33 ds3: it's just that I can't imagine Microsoft - even Microsoft - being so incompetent. I've been using a winmo device for two years now. I upgraded twice, had winmo 6.1, I have seen winmo 6.5 running, can't believe how it's so bad. Feb 13 01:31:56 ds3: Microsoft is a big corporation, but they are losing track very fast on this arena. Feb 13 01:31:56 Microsoft has always been incompetent Feb 13 01:32:07 the little they had good was always bought or stolen Feb 13 01:32:15 I hate Microsoft. But I can't help feeling bad for this. Feb 13 01:32:19 SpeedEvil, hm, so you can support it on your body and the keyboard makes the screen elevated and not covered by your body/pajamas/cover, clever Feb 13 01:32:30 they should rate better than that. Feb 13 01:32:34 it's pityful Feb 13 01:32:54 *pitiful Feb 13 01:33:08 ptl: i stopped years ago being amazed of incompetence.. competence can be amazing, though :) Feb 13 01:33:17 Now I use my N810 mostly for reading and watching stuff when I'm too lazy to get out of bed Feb 13 01:33:19 given all the options, I still prefer a the Treo Feb 13 01:33:36 the N8xx browser is a PoS Feb 13 01:34:40 hm, dunno, the pages that are too painful in it generally annoy me too much on desktop too Feb 13 01:34:57 microsoft main fault is bad OS architecture since MSDOS. that alienated many good developers Feb 13 01:35:07 and tear on N810 is faster than microb on N900 at browsing tmo... Feb 13 01:35:19 the problem I see with the MS stuff is they insist on you using all your limbs for the UI Feb 13 01:35:47 take outlook, you cannot read all your mail with just the keyboard (by extension buttons) Feb 13 01:38:41 well, use a mouse with 8 buttons. I have such a mouse. Feb 13 01:39:21 <3 MX Revolution Feb 13 01:45:26 the point is that means you have to move you hand around Feb 13 01:45:43 OTH, take kmail... you can do most of you reading with just the keyboard Feb 13 01:46:28 claws is a bit irritating along those same lines Feb 13 02:02:11 claws on n810 is okay, the menu button is awesome Feb 13 02:02:55 kmail is kinda weird, I use it on desktop. Like, even if N810 is so much slower that I type the menu - m - m - d or something much faster than the menus appear, claws still gets it right Feb 13 02:03:37 but kmail, if I type alt-m whatever faster than the menus appear, it takes some random keys out of the stream as a "normal" keyboard shortcut instead Feb 13 02:04:42 you have the kb... I am trying to do it on an N800 Feb 13 02:05:01 he Feb 13 02:05:02 h Feb 13 02:08:20 the Treo handled reading mail w/o using the keyboard keys just fine Feb 13 02:09:39 N900 is the first phone I've had that has handled my email :) Feb 13 02:09:55 I didn't even try yet Feb 13 02:10:11 my gmail is so full of unread emails that I can only use it via web Feb 13 02:10:39 on the n900 scratchbox environment, modest behaved poorly with my gmail account Feb 13 02:11:04 1 - 50 of 65269 Feb 13 02:12:22 on my N900 it atleast gets them into folders Feb 13 02:12:37 I have my mailserver sort everything into folders Feb 13 02:17:36 hehe, my ugly hack to setup connection in the background is kinda working Feb 13 02:17:51 (and fetch mms and stuff) Feb 13 02:49:43 hai Feb 13 02:51:45 hai Feb 13 02:52:04 toutinette: hi? **** ENDING LOGGING AT Sat Feb 13 02:59:58 2010