**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Wed Apr 07 02:59:57 2010 Apr 07 03:08:46 * GAN900 wants XChat to handle connection migrations better. Apr 07 03:09:33 '' Apr 07 03:10:16 Actually, I want it to work like that other client that I've forgotten the name of that has a two part UI and engine connected over the net Apr 07 03:10:30 pegasus? Apr 07 03:10:32 naah Apr 07 03:10:34 began with a p Apr 07 03:10:59 GAN900: Did anyone improve the UI yet? Apr 07 03:11:06 Of xchat Apr 07 03:11:58 in what way? Apr 07 03:12:14 Eh, just make it look a little better on the N900's screen Apr 07 03:12:37 /a little easier to navigate Apr 07 03:16:35 I find it quite easy Apr 07 03:16:39 http://www.flickr.com/photos/14560445@N08/4498439421/ Apr 07 03:16:42 I've got it setup as Apr 07 03:16:44 AakashPatel, a little. Apr 07 03:17:10 (without the obvious banner) Apr 07 03:17:19 SpeedEvil, prefer the channel list on the bottom. Apr 07 03:17:23 And with a few custom lists Apr 07 03:17:31 Fair enough, I don't Apr 07 03:17:52 Alright Apr 07 03:17:56 I'm out Apr 07 03:17:58 Peace doods Apr 07 03:17:59 I'd prefer it if the left bar could be made actual fixed width though Apr 07 03:18:23 and the input box shrunk Apr 07 03:18:48 SpeedEvil: just use bnc with xchat then Apr 07 03:19:49 ythen dccs don't work Apr 07 03:20:00 AIUI Apr 07 03:58:19 omg a site that actually knows nokia tablet history unlike the sites reporting about new nokia tablet today http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2362333,00.asp Apr 07 03:59:02 anotnac: except that they fail Apr 07 03:59:12 anotnac: there has never been a device called the N770 Apr 07 03:59:55 It was a "Nokia 770", sure, but that's not the biggest failure in the world... Apr 07 04:00:01 one letter is better than missing out whole history and trying to make out nokia are only on tablet bandwagon b/c ipad Apr 07 04:00:08 lol Apr 07 04:02:12 anyone ever listened to the ricky gervais show Apr 07 04:05:54 got to lol about googles childishness http://gerrymoth.co.uk/?p=76 Apr 07 04:12:01 what is google reader? Apr 07 04:12:04 * slackmagic w00ts! Got his n900 rma replacement in the mail today. Apr 07 04:12:26 hopefully fmtx works on this unit Apr 07 04:12:49 i think its like a rss feeder Apr 07 04:13:00 yea Apr 07 04:14:50 anotnac: could've been worse, they could've used auto-translate, and made it "Door map" Apr 07 04:14:58 tank-man: RSS reader Apr 07 04:15:21 anotnac: what ricky gervais show? Apr 07 04:16:04 anotnac: also, don't feel like you have to post everything and anything you come across while browsing the web in this channel, thanks. Apr 07 05:04:08 "After more than 4 years C is back at position number 1 in the TIOBE index. The scores for C have been pretty constant through the years, varying between the 15% and 20% market share for almost 10 years. So the main reason for C's number 1 position is not C's uprise, but the decline of its competitor Java. Java has a long-term downward trend." Apr 07 05:04:15 * RST38h laughs satanically Apr 07 05:05:36 Interesting that Delphi is still up there and going up. Is there even a supported compiler for Delphi? Apr 07 05:09:13 RST38h: Does it go up in % or absolute numbers? Apr 07 05:11:44 slono: %, afaik: http://www.tiobe.com/index.php/content/paperinfo/tpci/index.html Apr 07 05:14:38 RST38h: and in enterprise? Apr 07 05:15:38 "Wikipedia and YouTube are used to calculate the ratings" Apr 07 05:15:48 RST38h: so, C increase (in %) could just be caused by shrinking of smth else in absolite numbers. Apr 07 05:16:17 i doubt ppl _suddenly_ started coding much more C than before Apr 07 05:16:32 slonopotamus: you didn't even read RST38h's quote? Apr 07 05:16:50 slonopotamus: he bloody said it... "So the main reason for C's number 1 position is not C's uprise, but the decline of its competitor Java. Java has a long-term downward trend." Apr 07 05:17:07 hmm. yep Apr 07 05:17:14 * slonopotamus needs coffee Apr 07 05:18:25 let's all code C then? :) Apr 07 05:18:46 why? Apr 07 05:18:54 use whatever suits you and your application's requirements Apr 07 05:19:13 well, "The index can be used to check whether your programming skills are still up to date or to make a strategic decision about what programming language should be adopted when starting to build a new software system." Apr 07 05:21:00 nm, it's just random numbers. Apr 07 05:21:08 slonopotamus: that's a bollocks statement, really Apr 07 05:21:11 RST38h: Delphi's managed to find its way into a somewhat supported status, there's also a CLR compiler for it apparently Apr 07 05:21:28 microlith: and XSLT is categorised as a "programming language" Apr 07 05:21:53 ? Apr 07 05:23:14 now I realize why I gave up on Delphi, beyond the disaster at borland Apr 07 05:23:40 the cheapest uncrippled version you can get is $900 Apr 07 05:25:25 microlith: that's with IDE? Apr 07 05:25:37 delphi is nothing without its IDE Apr 07 05:26:21 It's never been available without one, at the very least Apr 07 05:26:26 same true for java, for ex. technically, you can write it in notepad, but that'll be a sad experience. Apr 07 05:26:37 sure, you could write delphi in notepad as well Apr 07 05:26:44 wouldn't envy anyone that tried Apr 07 05:28:50 when I've written Java, I used Kate or Nano Apr 07 05:28:52 I forget which Apr 07 05:29:19 last time I had to change a Visual Basic app I did it in Kate as well Apr 07 05:29:27 wrote a simple Makefile to compile with WINE Apr 07 05:30:07 luke-jr: it's doable. but you could be faster if IDE assisted you with stuff like error highlighting, autocomplete and automatic refactorings. Apr 07 05:30:30 yawn :) Apr 07 05:30:38 I think the more important thing is that $900 is more than I am willing to spend to use a niche language Apr 07 05:30:48 even if I did get started with programming in it Apr 07 05:31:08 yay for C Apr 07 05:31:11 microlith: well, you don't buy personal licenses, don't you? :) Apr 07 05:31:45 slonopotamus: no, I'll use Free tools like GtkBuilder and Ruby :) Apr 07 05:32:06 and, yes, C Apr 07 05:32:17 GTK ftl Apr 07 05:32:23 luke-jr: btw, why you were against glib, i forgot? i find it very useful and easy to use. especially unicode stuff. Apr 07 05:32:33 don't know about Ruby, but I've decided to boycott it just to abandon the dependency Apr 07 05:32:35 and error reporting Apr 07 05:32:48 luke-jr: I'm sure there are Qt bindings for it Apr 07 05:32:52 slonopotamus: because it's slow, bloated, and part of GTK Apr 07 05:33:01 microlith: but I have no need for it Apr 07 05:33:09 so you have no need for a GUI? Apr 07 05:33:14 no need for Ruby Apr 07 05:33:22 very well Apr 07 05:33:25 luke-jr: it isn't 'part of gtk'. it's gtk dependency Apr 07 05:33:47 slonopotamus: glib : GTK :: Qt Core : Qt Apr 07 05:34:13 luke-jr: Qt is cpp, we're talking about C Apr 07 05:34:20 Qt is its own language Apr 07 05:34:25 glib code is not C Apr 07 05:34:44 i start to think you never used glib Apr 07 05:34:57 if glib were C, there would be no type 'gchar' Apr 07 05:35:05 Really? Apr 07 05:35:22 when you begin replacing the standard library, you're making a new language Apr 07 05:35:23 hehe. yep, their gxxx types is some madness Apr 07 05:46:42 woohooo Apr 07 05:47:53 * simula hugs virtualbox Apr 07 05:53:12 luke-jr: not sure I agree with that argument Apr 07 05:53:49 luke-jr: a bunch of libraries have implemented their own char classes (xerces does, but xerces is hardly a language on its own) Apr 07 05:54:36 crashanddie: why gchar? Apr 07 05:55:52 I dunno Apr 07 05:56:52 i can understand why they have own boolean. but gchar/gint? Apr 07 05:57:06 glib even has own define for NULL :) Apr 07 05:58:29 slonopotamus: so? Apr 07 05:58:46 slonopotamus: is NULL = 0? Or 0x0? Apr 07 05:58:56 * crashanddie facepalms Apr 07 05:59:04 sorry, bad example, those are the same Apr 07 05:59:35 heh Apr 07 06:00:02 slonopotamus: char makes a lot of sense actually. C-type char only supports 256 values, which is very much insufficient for UTF-8 Apr 07 06:00:44 slonopotamus: example implementation of a char class: http://xerces.apache.org/xerces-c/apiDocs-3/XMLChar_8hpp-source.html Apr 07 06:01:40 crashanddie: NULL is what stddef.h said. Apr 07 06:01:52 the power of my arguments knocked you off the web Apr 07 06:02:46 [16:00] slonopotamus: char makes a lot of sense actually. C-type char only supports 256 values, which is very much insufficient for UTF-8 [16:00] slonopotamus: example implementation of a char class: http://xerces.apache.org/xerces-c/apiDocs-3/XMLChar_8hpp-source.html Apr 07 06:04:55 ... Apr 07 06:05:07 bad coverage :( Apr 07 06:05:49 * slonopotamus tries to remember how to kick slonopotamus Apr 07 06:05:51 second time that my arguments knocked you out of interwebural orbit Apr 07 06:06:00 crashanddie: :P Apr 07 06:06:03 slonopotamus: /cs ghost ? Apr 07 06:08:13 NickServ- You may not ghost yourself. :) Apr 07 06:08:22 cock Apr 07 06:08:36 I just added "slono" as the "External Reference" in one of my company's bug reports Apr 07 06:09:27 LOL Apr 07 06:11:10 and Lotus Notes crashed Apr 07 06:11:15 slonopotamus: bastard Apr 07 06:24:47 !list Apr 07 06:26:46 list! Apr 07 06:27:09 list! Apr 07 06:30:54 what setting could possibly cause my volume to randomly fade out during phone calls without the ability to increase the volume? Apr 07 06:31:38 list! Apr 07 06:31:39 i have sent my phone to nokia twice, both times receiving it back in the same condition sent. they are now stating that (after flashing the firmware) that it is a problem in the settings, not my n900 Apr 07 06:33:09 Is this channel hosting any files/softwares for mobiles? Apr 07 06:33:16 aspidites, what is the problem? Apr 07 06:33:29 Whimsical11, no Apr 07 06:33:39 thanks mece Apr 07 06:39:31 mece: during a call, the volume fades out and only seems to increase after squeezing the phone neer the ear piece Apr 07 06:39:59 aspidites: they are playing with you Apr 07 06:40:10 https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=6063 Apr 07 06:40:12 Bug 6063: voice calls inaudible most of the time, but not through speakers or earplugs Apr 07 06:40:54 why is it so hard to get a replacement phone? or at the very least, have them fix my BROKEN phone...oops device that happens to be able to make calls Apr 07 06:41:00 aspidites. I had that at first. fixed in pr1.1 for me. Apr 07 06:41:07 go figure. Apr 07 06:41:45 mece: i thought it was firmware originally which is why i waited for new firmware. no version has fixed it Apr 07 06:41:54 they just send me my phone back reflashed and stil broken Apr 07 06:42:23 ok. seems you have the hw problem then. Apr 07 06:44:44 mece: could you tell nokia that please? Apr 07 06:44:57 apparently they are convinced it's a "setting" Apr 07 06:45:15 how many times do they want to flash my phone before they are convinced its not a setting? Apr 07 06:45:16 a setting they couldn't fix apparently. Apr 07 06:45:23 * aspidites done ranting Apr 07 06:45:32 aspidites, flashing normally doesn't remove settings though. Apr 07 06:45:41 more like setting me off Apr 07 06:45:48 aspidites, settings are stored on the emmc Apr 07 06:45:50 mece: how does flashing the emmc NOT remove settings? Apr 07 06:45:59 i've flashed both numerous times Apr 07 06:45:59 aspidites, that does. Apr 07 06:46:02 :P Apr 07 06:46:29 aspidites, to which nokia have you sent it? Apr 07 06:46:40 US Apr 07 06:46:44 Palco something or other Apr 07 06:47:26 aspidites, I hear nokia us are dicks. Apr 07 06:48:59 * pupnik pokes channel Apr 07 06:49:21 * mece tips his hat to pupnik Apr 07 06:49:27 * ds3 throws dosboxes at pupnik Apr 07 06:49:34 mece: funny because of all the people i spoke to, only one had a fine grasp of English. I imagine I get transfered to an outsourced call center every time Apr 07 06:50:00 morning mece. wonder who is the first to fry a n900 with OCing :) Apr 07 06:52:20 pupnik, I'm surprised no one has done it yet. Apr 07 06:53:36 the mtbf of 50k at 600mhz is quite a lot of hours . assuming 24k hours mtbf overclocked and 24h oc'd use per week yields 20 years (1000 weeks) Apr 07 06:54:38 pupnik, do we know that, or are we still talking about 3530 numbers? Apr 07 06:55:39 not a known figure Apr 07 06:55:58 hi , this is the output after I ran the start_xephyr.sh http://pastebin.com/AfG9wdby Apr 07 06:56:19 just saying it would be 2 years at 2,400 Apr 07 06:56:20 the window is blank Apr 07 06:56:48 I'm running maemo in Fedora 12, Selinux disabled Apr 07 06:57:49 http://www.alphatek.info/2010/02/13/install-the-nokia-n900-maemo-5-sdk-on-fedora/ I have followed this article and succesfully installed Maemo SDK, scratchbox.. Apr 07 06:58:25 dunno fqhuy - google the error msg Apr 07 06:58:49 maybe someone else knows... Apr 07 07:00:28 non-nokia related question: is anyone having problems with pygame + sound? i'm trying to port a game i'm working on but the soound just keeps 'popping' Apr 07 07:01:51 perhaps play with uffer size. check with oprofile to see if some thread is consuming too much cpu Apr 07 07:01:52 fqhuy, did you run af-sb- start Apr 07 07:01:55 buffer Apr 07 07:02:48 mece: no, not yet Apr 07 07:05:28 * pupnik eagerly awaits new gcc Apr 07 07:20:14 damn am I relieved the fmtx is working on this replacement unit. Finally I get to fully enjoy the n900 Apr 07 07:22:09 wtf... has there been some big cleanup in the repos? libglibmm and libgtkmm are not there anymore... Apr 07 07:31:29 "The house-sized battery can hold four megawatts of power for up to eight hours." Apr 07 07:31:49 Presidio, Texas <== you know where to lay the explosives now Apr 07 07:32:24 Actually, shorting it will probably work even better =) Apr 07 07:42:55 Presidio????? Apr 07 07:44:44 * ptl_demands_PR12 is going to eat his sandwich soup Apr 07 07:50:49 oh, we can't sync additional calendars in google calendar to n900 :( Apr 07 08:07:03 anyone figured out how to use the qt creator 2.0 to deploy directly onto the device without the use of madde Apr 07 08:09:33 zeddy is using scratchbox cheating? Apr 07 08:10:14 once they get scratchbox to run in a windows enviroment i might think about using it again Apr 07 08:10:43 then again.. last time i used scratchbox the app looked fine while developing, after deploying and runinng on the n900 it was a total mess Apr 07 08:13:00 zeddy, using vmware it took me about 20 mins to get scratchbox in a windows environment, ish :D Apr 07 08:13:52 you mean by running ubuntu in vmware and running scratchbox in ubuntu? Apr 07 08:14:17 took me about 5 minutes to do the same with virtualbox :> Apr 07 08:15:35 but that doesn't change the fact that scratchbox lied to me Apr 07 08:15:44 and i will hate it forever Apr 07 08:15:58 :D Apr 07 08:16:03 hehe Apr 07 08:16:13 or in my case, just code on the device Apr 07 08:16:18 alot less hassle Apr 07 08:16:21 what the hell Apr 07 08:16:25 :D Apr 07 08:16:26 you cant be all that productive Apr 07 08:16:27 :P Apr 07 08:16:29 pyqt Apr 07 08:16:44 speaking of which, healthcheck new version + testing = when? :D Apr 07 08:16:48 lol ok its not the greatest app - but healthcheck is done in idle and on the device Apr 07 08:16:57 nidO, - this morning :D Apr 07 08:17:04 removing apps, adding a loading bar Apr 07 08:17:25 btw.. is it hard to create a background service for the device, which would listen to incomming messages and parse them? Apr 07 08:17:35 and no im not thinking about creating something illegal.. :P Apr 07 08:17:38 whats actually in the apps section at the moment? Apr 07 08:18:10 nidO, lists all apps on the device, but doesnt do anything else yet Apr 07 08:18:34 Zeddy, daemon? - not tried but the parsing, and reading of messages is doable :D - DBUS can grab em Apr 07 08:18:36 noobmonk3y, how much does your app depend on non qt components, can it run on general linux or on windows even? Apr 07 08:19:07 lcuk, all of the info boxes are maemo specific, the app itself loads up fine on windows - if i do not call those functions Apr 07 08:19:24 cool Apr 07 08:19:24 some of it even works on linux lol Apr 07 08:19:33 yeah :) Apr 07 08:19:39 :D :D Apr 07 08:19:54 i have a feeling that nmake is running in cirkles Apr 07 08:20:01 i keep seeing the same actions Apr 07 08:20:05 and its been running for 15 minutes Apr 07 08:27:03 * noobmonk3y wears again at tbhe lack of pyqt on tinterweb Apr 07 08:28:31 swears* tbhe* Apr 07 08:28:34 omg Apr 07 08:28:43 one day i promise i will learn to type :D Apr 07 08:29:30 :) Apr 07 08:33:59 noobmonk3y - still looking for things to include into healthcheck? Apr 07 08:35:03 allways open to help and advice :D Apr 07 08:37:17 not so much an actual health checking function, but altering hildon's transition settings does wonders for the smoothness of navigation - there's a thread containing a settings file someone's done, but its flooded with "wat does cp do" and similar from people wanting to use it - how about a function to replace /usr/share/hildon-desktop/transitions.ini with a customised version, and the option to restore a backed-up copy of the default, and a Apr 07 08:37:39 :|? lol! Apr 07 08:37:46 that should be simple to code, only needs a couple of cp's and echoing the file via a ui to change it Apr 07 08:38:11 no idea what you mean though? - the only transitions are between tabs? Apr 07 08:38:30 not transitions within healthcheck, within the entire hildon ui Apr 07 08:38:38 nidO, theres an app for that! Apr 07 08:38:54 as in, a button in healthcheck thats "click here to improve transitions loads" or something, then a "click here to restore transitions to defaults" Apr 07 08:39:08 that each just replace transitions.ini with a customised or the original version respectively Apr 07 08:39:25 http://maemo.org/packages/view/transitioncontrol/ Apr 07 08:39:46 that's never gotten out of -devel though Apr 07 08:39:53 only thing it misses are restore buttons Apr 07 08:40:04 ahh wel :) at least the info is there and documented Apr 07 08:40:24 lol!!! Apr 07 08:40:34 got the loading bar loading, does nothing at sits there :P geeeeeeenius Apr 07 08:44:20 hi, anyone please help me. it took me half day, and I still cannot get Maemo SDK working on my Fedora 12 Apr 07 08:44:28 http://pastebin.com/THusz550 this is the eror Apr 07 08:44:45 plz plz plz Apr 07 08:45:32 * Arkenoi wonders if SElinux problem will ever be fixed Apr 07 08:46:05 Arkenoi: Selinux is disabled Apr 07 08:47:19 how can I develop software for maemo, if the SDK doesnt want me to install it Apr 07 08:48:18 try starting the scratchbox first Apr 07 08:48:34 /scratchbox/start or something Apr 07 08:49:04 Appiah: /scratchbox/sbin/sbox_ctl start” you means this one ? Apr 07 08:49:15 umm Apr 07 08:49:19 already started with root permission Apr 07 08:49:27 dont have it ifront of me but its somewhere there /scratchbox/bin maybe Apr 07 08:49:47 this was all in the docs.. Apr 07 08:49:59 $ /scratchbox/login Apr 07 08:50:03 http://maemo.org/development/sdks/maemo_5-0_installation/ Apr 07 08:50:06 there you go Apr 07 08:51:52 I'm using the Maemo SDK virtual machine image. I just run /usr/bin/scratchbox Apr 07 08:52:05 or actually just 'scratchbox' because it's in path Apr 07 08:52:51 looks like it's a bash script though Apr 07 08:53:23 Appiah: Fatal server error: Apr 07 08:53:23 Cannot establish any listening sockets - Make sure an X server isn't already running Apr 07 08:53:36 that is the Error when I tried to start Xephyr Apr 07 08:54:03 fqhuy: did the scratchbox start? Apr 07 08:54:22 Appiah: how can I check it, I have run the command Apr 07 08:54:27 lcuk, is there a sleep command in python? other then Apr 07 08:54:30 /scratchbox/login Apr 07 08:54:30 bb = 'run-standalone.sh sleep 5' Apr 07 08:54:30 b = os.popen(bb) Apr 07 08:54:30 b.close() Apr 07 08:54:37 /scratchbox/sbin/sbox_ctl start this one Apr 07 08:54:41 fqhuy: NO Apr 07 08:54:46 10:52 < Appiah> /scratchbox/login Apr 07 08:54:46 noobmonk3y: time.sleep Apr 07 08:54:51 yay thankee Apr 07 08:55:13 noobmonk3y: os.popen is "evil" use the subprocess module (but use time.sleep here) Apr 07 08:55:25 :D :D :D Apr 07 08:56:29 Appiah: according to the document, I have to start Xephyr first Apr 07 08:56:34 then /login Apr 07 08:56:39 fqhuy: not the one I'm reading Apr 07 08:56:57 fqhuy: and thats not how I've been starting it Apr 07 08:56:59 Starting/shutting down the SDK UI, Appiah you mean this section ? Apr 07 08:57:12 * Abhinav1 is back (gone 00:04:46) Apr 07 08:57:56 fqhuy: just try it ok? Apr 07 08:58:18 no, not ok at all Apr 07 08:58:23 already running Apr 07 08:58:29 Under section 1. it says /scratchbox/login Apr 07 08:58:32 Under Section 2 Apr 07 08:58:35 Xephyr Apr 07 08:58:48 which installer did you use? Apr 07 08:59:18 Is there a way of setting kernel cmdline other than flahs: Apr 07 08:59:21 ? Apr 07 08:59:44 Appiah: GUI installer Apr 07 09:00:13 I have run it dozen times before I can get the SDK installed Apr 07 09:00:49 o_O Apr 07 09:00:57 What dist are you installing on? Apr 07 09:01:02 Fedora 12 Apr 07 09:01:29 Did you logout/login after install of the SDK? Apr 07 09:02:22 Appiah: I even reboot system Apr 07 09:02:35 Grlll ~X( Apr 07 09:03:15 and you got no errors installing? Apr 07 09:03:35 Appiah: yep Apr 07 09:04:07 fqhuy: Do you have /usr/bin/scratchbox ? Apr 07 09:05:09 * DocScrutinizer moos furiously Apr 07 09:05:19 MiXu-: no, I dont have it Apr 07 09:05:31 I changed the location to /opt/scratchbox Apr 07 09:05:47 >>Poll: Do you think its possible to overclock the N900?!<< WAAAAH, where's my LART Apr 07 09:06:13 * nidO hefts his lart Apr 07 09:06:14 DocScrutinizer: 1200MHz FTW! Apr 07 09:07:08 * DocScrutinizer constructs a railgun to shoot each and every overclocker with his own uberlightspeed N900 Apr 07 09:07:15 * fqhuy crying now Apr 07 09:08:19 dont know why, but it;s working now with DISPLAY=3 Apr 07 09:08:32 I have started another Xephyr in DISPLAY 3 Apr 07 09:08:34 * X-Fade can't find the nice Omap3 frequency/voltage MTBF chart anymore :( Apr 07 09:08:45 Appiah: thanks Apr 07 09:09:50 X-Fade: use a church of scientology paper instead, where there's clearly prrved everything is possible if only >5% of the population believes in it Apr 07 09:09:58 fqhuy: I have this script in /usr/bin that I use to start it: http://pastebin.com/2JdwZJ1h Apr 07 09:10:10 fqhuy: ah nice Apr 07 09:10:18 Oh it works now. Never mind then :) Apr 07 09:11:55 Appiah: MiXu- I think all the article for Maemo SDK on F12 is a little bit outdate, because of the new installer script . Apr 07 09:12:20 hi to all, I'm new on this cannel. Enrico, Turin, IT Apr 07 09:12:21 :D Apr 07 09:12:37 I have to fix the script by myself Apr 07 09:12:37 Hello Mr It. Apr 07 09:13:42 Nokia! in a mass poll 83% voted "it's possible to overclock the N900". NOW FIX THAT! Apr 07 09:14:41 * SpeedEvil creates a poll for 4+4=7 Apr 07 09:14:44 DocScrutinizer: That poll's just like brainstorm. Crowdsourced stupidity ;-) Apr 07 09:17:01 Jaffa the problem is though most people who've voted yes have probably followed the instructions on how to do it like the sheep they are, without understanding what theyre doing Apr 07 09:17:26 so theres a potential 500 timebomb n900's walking round that will be back to the forums crying sooner or later when their device dies Apr 07 09:17:38 Wait for the first one to melt his display because of running the cpu so hot :) Apr 07 09:19:09 X-Fade: are there any more detailed info from Nokia internal tests available, which possibly could put an end to this insanity? Apr 07 09:19:24 DocScrutinizer: Don't ask me. No idea. Apr 07 09:19:47 But I once saw this Ti doc when the android guys were doing the same overclocking. Apr 07 09:19:51 X-Fade: I ask you to ask the right people ;-D Apr 07 09:20:31 DocScrutinizer: At the summit it was told that the voltage increase was the worst part, iirc. Apr 07 09:23:24 nidO, to be fair with or without overclocking there will be wingers in the forum :P Apr 07 09:24:17 yes, but 500 more who we can already see will be back to whine because of their own messing with the device is 500 it'd be nice not to have Apr 07 09:25:42 i appreciate voluntary OC testers Apr 07 09:25:48 :P Apr 07 09:26:11 bbl Apr 07 09:26:19 why do you need to overclock? Apr 07 09:26:24 is it me or is there no width and height settings for QtGui.QProgressDialog .... just seems to do what it wants :| Apr 07 09:26:45 Appiah, theres reasons for and against, i dont see the point, people people will always want to try new things, because they can Apr 07 09:26:51 cya pupnik Apr 07 09:27:21 noobmonk3y_: well ofcourse Apr 07 09:27:36 just asking if there was a specific goal Apr 07 09:27:48 Some seem to say it makes the device smoother...... Apr 07 09:27:49 meh Apr 07 09:28:12 well, people actually intelligent enough to do it themselves are geeky enough to just try it and see what happens Apr 07 09:28:19 afaik a lot of the ui stickyness is due to swapping Apr 07 09:28:35 but then all the people on the forum just following the instructions and who have no clue, are just "wauw free upgradez!" syndrome Apr 07 09:28:58 900 > 600 so must be good to overclock, rite Apr 07 09:28:59 etc Apr 07 09:29:38 Swapping is the main cause. Well, memory leaks and swapping. Apr 07 09:29:42 there were a lot of seemingly well thought, intelligent, informed comments on the overclocking thread in tmo. Apr 07 09:30:05 there are, but theyre interspersed with tons of "how duz flasher wurk" type posts as well Apr 07 09:30:06 so I don't think it's like that... Apr 07 09:30:13 these people will end up with bricked phones and no clue why. Apr 07 09:30:44 I haven't overclocked mine because... guess what? I am first waiting for PR1.2. :P Apr 07 09:30:50 after that, I will do it. Apr 07 09:31:47 My N900 never gets warm with his current clock and also from the stats spends just too few time on 600 MHz. Apr 07 09:31:59 ptl_demands_PR12: wellinformed compared to which scale? Apr 07 09:32:08 So it seems it has room for a few upclocks... Apr 07 09:32:46 mine does get warm on 600MHz Apr 07 09:33:08 MTBF will shorten quite a bit. But then it is just a statistic. You might be the lucky one or not ;) Apr 07 09:33:21 DocScrutinizer: mostly insightful comments from people who consider things like heating up the CPU, time during high clocks and such. From the words and discourse, I can guess they have overclocking experience. Apr 07 09:33:39 DocScrutinizer: but it's just a guess, an impression, I can't prove, and you should read the comments by yourself. Apr 07 09:34:24 ptl_demands_PR12: Heat and electronmigration are the killers iirc. Apr 07 09:34:38 problem is, they have the kiddy oc-ing experience that comes with modern motherboards and x86 cpu's with plenty of safeguards built in, and where the only significant factor in failure is heat, rather than electromigration Apr 07 09:34:39 ptl_demands_PR12: I don't need this rant and gibberish and handwaving. I am EE with quite some decades of professional experience Apr 07 09:35:44 nidO: those are good arguments while I was just trying to tell an impression from what I've read - not more than a few pages. Maybe you should tell them there. Apr 07 09:35:58 MiXu-: The CPU does not - at 600MHz - use much power. Apr 07 09:36:05 hi Apr 07 09:36:34 SpeedEvil: Yeah, I know. A lot of the heat probably comes from the battery and the display. Apr 07 09:37:23 Battery - almost none Apr 07 09:37:48 display + something is equal to CPU at 100% utilisation at 600MHz Apr 07 09:37:48 well, I am sort of lucky for PR1.2 delaying so much. Apr 07 09:38:14 at the time when it arrives, by the impression you give me, there will be dozens of cases of overclocking going bad Apr 07 09:38:29 ptl_demands_PR12: but... Apr 07 09:38:29 and I'll be able to read them on the forum and refrain from following the crowd :D Apr 07 09:38:51 ptl_demands_PR12: how many of these will be 'my n900 doesn't work, replace plz' Apr 07 09:39:06 and how many will admit openly that they have been overcocking. Apr 07 09:39:20 <_berto_> overcocking ? Apr 07 09:39:21 good point... Apr 07 09:39:44 well, you've got to be really cocky for making you cellphone run 50% faster, _berto_ Apr 07 09:39:47 And further how many will ome back and post 'oops' Apr 07 09:39:58 SpeedEvil: as long as it gives the lemmings street credibility on tmo... Apr 07 09:40:13 ptl_demands_PR12: you seem to never get it, no? There's no such thing like melting, and OC doesn't mean your device will '*POOOF*' - it's like it stops proper operation in special cases *a few weeks or months _after* you started OC Apr 07 09:40:27 even if you finished doing that at that time Apr 07 09:40:28 SpeedEvil <-- seriously considers tmo forum members smart Apr 07 09:40:29 I hope the first failed devices are heard from real soon, until everyone has oc'd their device. Apr 07 09:40:54 Some TMO forum members are smart. Apr 07 09:40:56 MiXu-: chances are they wont be Apr 07 09:41:07 nidO: Yeah, as DocScrutinizer explained. Apr 07 09:41:14 SpeedEvil: Statistically insignificant "some" nowadays Apr 07 09:41:19 droid people were going through the same thing in Jan :) Apr 07 09:41:22 My contention is that it is so hard to read a - say - 45 page thread. Apr 07 09:41:41 XFade: Have they melted down by now? Apr 07 09:42:15 RST38h: Don't know, did not read through the also insanely long threads there ;) Apr 07 09:42:23 DocScrutinizer: yes, I understand, and it shortens the life of the components and such, which might take months, *but* if that is as bad as you say, one could hope that at least some cases would go bad in the beginning. Apr 07 09:42:49 nope Apr 07 09:43:01 DocScrutinizer: there was also a joke, a subtle joke, about PR1.2 taking months to arrive... Apr 07 09:43:25 ptl_demands_PR12, most people who boost their processors are running speed check things and toys to "check if it works" the equivilent of kicking the tyres Apr 07 09:43:40 It may be that in practice - all shipped processors will last for 12 years running 100% at 1GHz Apr 07 09:43:41 its only once they *forget* they overclocked and have a random failure days/weeks down the line Apr 07 09:43:48 And the worst you get is instability Apr 07 09:44:10 anyway Apr 07 09:44:11 Or it might be that they will last 5000 hours at 900MHz 10% of the time Apr 07 09:44:15 we can't tell yet Apr 07 09:44:18 some updates on my ogre n900 project :) Apr 07 09:44:20 http://dl.dropbox.com/u/3589544/realxtend-naali-N900-audi-world-1.png Apr 07 09:44:22 as soon as Meego is stable, Nokia is releasing their new device Apr 07 09:44:23 http://dl.dropbox.com/u/3589544/realxtend-naali-N900-audi-world-2.png Apr 07 09:44:37 so I don't have that much incentive to make my N900 have a long life Apr 07 09:44:39 ogre 1.7 with gles rendering system Apr 07 09:44:51 maybe he's best being adventurous, living short and fast Apr 07 09:45:31 ptl_demands_PR12: Vote for all n900 users getting a free upgrade. Apr 07 09:45:33 s/he's/it's/ Apr 07 09:45:33 ptl_demands_PR12 meant: maybe it's best being adventurous, living short and fast Apr 07 09:45:43 SpeedEvil: lol Apr 07 09:46:02 Pforce: seems nice, but what's this blank car? no textures? Apr 07 09:46:20 yes seems that its not loading the textures for that from the server Apr 07 09:46:26 Pforce: this is something like second life? Apr 07 09:46:26 the content is all online Apr 07 09:46:32 oh Apr 07 09:46:36 yes, open source virtual worlds viewer Apr 07 09:46:42 very cool!!! Apr 07 09:46:44 [2010-04-07 01:00:13] let's do a math joggling: x = % of cpu clock on overall performance of a system. (wild guess: 30% - remaining 70% for mem-IO, gfx, etc pp), now if we overclock from 500MHz to a completely illusoric 1GHz, we obviously get an overall system performance gain of ~15%. Now taking into account you usually need at least a factor *1.75 to even notice any difference. Apr 07 09:47:10 Well - ... Apr 07 09:47:16 That's somewhat wrong. Apr 07 09:47:18 Pforce, snowcrash multiverse? Apr 07 09:47:24 I've read that and I've read the response afterwards, DocScrutinizer Apr 07 09:47:25 this all was loaded with wifi Apr 07 09:47:28 As some of the stuff - the Apr 07 09:47:30 ... Apr 07 09:47:31 it can be about responsiveness Apr 07 09:47:38 and that other guy is me on my desktop pc Apr 07 09:47:41 so not a bot :) Apr 07 09:47:46 but also crude speed, like e.g. playstation games Apr 07 09:47:56 lcuk: ? Apr 07 09:48:07 ptl_demands_PR12: response? Apr 07 09:48:28 DocScrutinizer: that for example - this isn't so much the case for scrolling Apr 07 09:48:30 Pforce, read snowcrash Apr 07 09:48:33 DocScrutinizer: As an example. Apr 07 09:48:44 DocScrutinizer: Wander around /sys - and set the CPU to 450MHz Apr 07 09:48:45 DocScrutinizer: yeah, although nidO told responsiveness might be an issue related to swapping too. Apr 07 09:49:05 (something like cpu_max_governor_frequency Apr 07 09:49:13 lcuk: still cant follow, you want me to google that i suppose Apr 07 09:49:33 Pforce, the multiverse is a virtual world in the book :) Apr 07 09:49:48 right, came up on google Apr 07 09:49:50 heh Apr 07 09:50:07 SpeedEvil: there are cases where your device is just too slow, and with 1% better performance it's fast enough. Those cases are rare and for sure aren't the targeted goal of those OC idio... err ^w^w Apr 07 09:50:17 DocScrutinizer: Right. Apr 07 09:50:29 DocScrutinizer: now set the device to 450. It's noticably less responsive Apr 07 09:51:12 docscrutinizer, well, I don't think 30% raw cpu cycle rate is nothing to sneeze at (although I haven't OC'd) Apr 07 09:51:51 and at those levels it could easily go over a boundary of say updating the display every two frames to updating it every frame Apr 07 09:51:53 yay qprogressdialog is almost working! Apr 07 09:52:24 flux: for impressing the shit out of your similarly numbers-wanking friends it for sure helps a lot Apr 07 09:52:41 docscrutinizer, well, the difference I mentioned can be very much be seen Apr 07 09:53:10 and can give the impression of much smoother interface Apr 07 09:54:20 actually someone's been kind enough to provide a good example on that: http://www.boallen.com/fps-compare.html Apr 07 09:54:50 flux: we (speedevil and me) just debated this crossing-the-border case 5 lines above. If the screen update is skipping frames due to system being 15% too slow, then it's better to lower the framerate by 15% rather than overclock the CPU by 100% Apr 07 09:56:25 docscrutinizer, well, the way I think it likely works is that the drawing is bound to the refresh rate of the screen Apr 07 09:56:48 docscrutinizer, so if you can't draw everything in one frame, it automatically drops to two frames (ie. 30 fps, not 60 fps) Apr 07 09:57:24 flux: actually AIUI that's NOT the way it works Apr 07 09:57:32 I'm just saying it feels faster Apr 07 09:57:35 slower Apr 07 09:57:40 to me Apr 07 09:57:50 Anyone here using Qt Mobility ? Apr 07 09:58:30 if i understand correctly i have to use Qt 4.5 if i want to take advantage of the mobility Api Apr 07 09:58:35 right? Apr 07 09:58:48 docscrutinizer, so currently random frames get thrown away? as I cannot see tearing when scrolling the application list. Apr 07 10:01:40 IIRC the windowmanager rsp the rendering engine has its own framerate setting, which isn't even synced to display refresh rate. If there's no tearing then the rendering engine most probably is using double buffering Apr 07 10:03:29 atleast hildon-manager doesn't have its own timeout set when it issues the 'poll'. on average the time between polls is 30fps, so I guess something from X is telling it to continue. Apr 07 10:03:54 agh, never mind, it does have a timeout :) Apr 07 10:03:54 flux: compare fts tests for arbitrary games or gfx rendering engines. The fps is from maybe 10fps to 200fps and still the refresh rate of your desktop PC display isn't changed Apr 07 10:04:30 docscrutinizer, unless it does the sane thing and syncs on vblank? Apr 07 10:05:18 there's usually no such thing like sync on vblank, except for double buffer switching Apr 07 10:05:49 Which is largely irrelevant. Apr 07 10:05:54 * lcuk mutters something about pipelines and complexity Apr 07 10:06:05 as the update rate when scrolling does not - IMO - approach 60Hz Apr 07 10:06:11 for essentially anything Apr 07 10:06:13 but you might want to ask raster about such things, he's wizard extraordinaire for all sorts of GFX. Me just EE / hardware Apr 07 10:06:38 * lcuk puts fps back in liqbase Apr 07 10:07:00 pr1.2 out? Apr 07 10:07:16 Scelt: yes, but only to cool people. Apr 07 10:07:19 has ptl_demands_PR12 changed his nick yet? Apr 07 10:07:22 glxgears atleast does this: 300 frames in 5.0 seconds Apr 07 10:07:30 ptl isnt cool though Apr 07 10:07:31 but I guess it's not representantive of modern games Apr 07 10:07:35 SpeedEvil: damn Apr 07 10:07:42 well we know that nidO Apr 07 10:07:48 his nickname messes up my irc Apr 07 10:08:33 and it properly gets events from X instead of timeouting by itself Apr 07 10:09:00 gears doesnt slow down for anything does it Apr 07 10:09:12 ive seen people quoting 1000s of fps for that on desktops Apr 07 10:09:18 perhaps in the old times Apr 07 10:09:38 and infact it did do that for me too before saying sync-on-vblank-on-this-head Apr 07 10:09:44 /kickban *p*r*1*2* Apr 07 10:09:57 (I usually run in doublehead configuration and the v-blank-sync was set to that (absent) head) Apr 07 10:10:07 DocScrutinizer, your nick is similarly disruptive :p Apr 07 10:10:08 before fixing that it ran at 4000+ fps Apr 07 10:10:30 too bad Apr 07 10:12:16 heh Apr 07 10:12:21 6500fps with gears Apr 07 10:15:13 Sauerbraten is perhaps more representantive, atleast it says to have an option 'sync to vblank'. but it is difficult to say what it does.. Apr 07 10:15:28 (but atleast it definitely goes in one frame) Apr 07 10:23:02 the whole debate is moot - see: [2010-04-07 12:05:48] Which is largely irrelevant. as the update rate when scrolling does not - IMO - approach 60Hz. for essentially anything Apr 07 10:24:03 but it could approach, it seems to me my cpu usage is less than 35% when scrolling the app list :) Apr 07 10:24:21 aren't there any tunables for that? Apr 07 10:24:38 no, as explained to you some lines above, the rendering engine has its own fps setting Apr 07 10:25:23 I didn't see you explaining that the fps setting is not in a configuration file or that it's nokia proprietary without source code ;) Apr 07 10:25:28 for E* e.g you even can set this framerate for scrolling, in the user settings Apr 07 10:25:56 flux: how surprising. I didn't state that Apr 07 10:29:02 (framerate) and it defaults to 10fps iirc. Probably for maemo you usually have similar config options, and no, I don't think those are 60fps by default Apr 07 10:30:28 so claiming a overall system performance increase in rendering of 15% would cause a 100% increase in framerate is mere nonsense Apr 07 10:30:44 sizeof(int) == 4 on ARMEL target? Apr 07 10:33:29 and nota bene it's not a proven fact you could even reach a 15% boost with overclocking. It might as well be as little as 5% Apr 07 10:33:57 docscrutinizer, hasn't that been found to be true for some workloads already? Apr 07 10:34:52 surprisingly few benchmarks seem to be around Apr 07 10:36:22 flux: some workloads == math from cache, without any mem transfers? That's for sure not the same like rendering Apr 07 10:36:25 apparently the sunspider javascript benchmark goes from 37 sec to 26 sec when clocking from 600 MHz to 900 Apr 07 10:36:29 someone running the sdk on exherbo 86bit? Apr 07 10:36:32 64bit Apr 07 10:37:51 (I doubt javascript benchmarks run from cpu cache) Apr 07 10:38:33 what about an osx compat layer? Apr 07 10:38:44 iphoneos Apr 07 10:38:46 whatever Apr 07 10:38:50 I feel like I know better use for my time than debating likelihood of guesses Apr 07 10:39:16 DocScrutinizer, how did the initial notes about battery component come out Apr 07 10:39:29 lcuk: huh? Apr 07 10:39:38 if i overclock, i'd like to have my kernel maintain the high frequency for a maxium of 10 seconds per 30 seconds or so Apr 07 10:39:52 corecode: pointless Apr 07 10:40:05 corecode: kernel should mantain high frequency as long as it's required Apr 07 10:40:18 lcuk: you want to know when it was that me stated 'we *have* a bq27200 and a bq24150' here on IRC? Apr 07 10:40:19 hmmmm Apr 07 10:40:23 DocScrutinizer, wasnt it you that was talking about alternative/open/other battery component Apr 07 10:40:36 jacekowski, even if it is required by a stuck hildon-desktop applet taking 100% cpus for hours worth? Apr 07 10:40:38 if someone here has overclocked, would they mind doing me a favour please? Apr 07 10:41:17 flux: so why just don't clock it at lower frequency all the time Apr 07 10:41:50 jacekowski: and kill the cpu? Apr 07 10:41:51 jacekowski, maybe perhaps one prefers to use a user interface that responds quickly Apr 07 10:42:03 you need something to catch runaway processes Apr 07 10:42:05 jacekowski, and such workloads require cpu only for a few seconds at a time Apr 07 10:42:06 lcuk, - whole new h/c in extras devel - :D :D - me thinks i'm almost happy with this one ;) Apr 07 10:42:13 of course, high frequency is just for latency, not for number crunching Apr 07 10:42:23 lcuk: I asked for some decent sysnodes to handle these chips in a system conformant way Apr 07 10:42:31 flux: you need to remember that changing cpu frequency causes cache flush Apr 07 10:42:38 mainly in #meego iirc Apr 07 10:42:40 noobmonk3y_: gogo promote Apr 07 10:42:44 oh it does? Apr 07 10:42:50 yep Apr 07 10:42:52 jacekowski, even if cache is flushed every 5 seconds I doubt it affects anything Apr 07 10:43:01 nidO, - need some brains on it first ,few little niggles Apr 07 10:43:12 but v almost there Apr 07 10:43:14 so also the switching to 250mhz? Apr 07 10:43:15 * nidO points at his Apr 07 10:43:20 * noobmonk3y_ grins Apr 07 10:44:17 * noobmonk3y_ freaks... football in 1 hour :( Apr 07 10:44:21 and I considered to start a thread on this, in maemo-devel ML. Alas I have no device ATM, so I could backup my ranting with some facts. And I don't like ranting that's not based on proper resaerch Apr 07 10:44:25 corecode: that's because processor doesn't really like changing frequency just like that Apr 07 10:44:40 DocScrutinizer, no device :( Apr 07 10:44:42 ? Apr 07 10:44:48 jacekowski, how much does the CPU have cache anyway? I imagine it is filled in a millisecond or (much) less Apr 07 10:44:57 jacekowski: but switches to lower frequency happen all the time Apr 07 10:45:03 corecode: yes Apr 07 10:45:10 corecode: and that causes cache flush Apr 07 10:45:20 corecode: because it could corrupt data Apr 07 10:45:21 every cache miss = energy spent fetching data from RAM Apr 07 10:45:28 jacekowski: ok. Apr 07 10:45:50 chances of that happening are slim Apr 07 10:45:55 jacekowski: but that means limiting the high frequency to a fraction of total runtime shouldn't have a big impact Apr 07 10:46:16 DocScrutinizer: Out of interest, if, as you believe, overclocking was doing damage, why do you think no one on the Android side routinely overclocking their Droids (which uses the same SoC as the n900) and Nexus Ones have said anything about it? Apr 07 10:46:19 lcuk: anyway ShadowJK does a hell of a good job on digging into one of the both chips, the bq27200 battery gauge Apr 07 10:46:34 what i'm say is, i wouldn't mind overclocking at all, provided that a runaway process doesn't turn my cpu into a radiator Apr 07 10:46:49 DocScrutinizer, thats ok i mustv just muddled you up somehow Apr 07 10:46:52 Termana: it causes damage to battery life Apr 07 10:46:58 Termana: probably for the same reason very little will surface with people damaging their n900's Apr 07 10:47:07 nidO, take a look and see what you think, if peeps are happy enough this evening i'll put it in testing :D Apr 07 10:47:12 Termana: the answer is in this chan backscroll. Please refer to that Apr 07 10:47:24 "wtf nokia my device is dead u suxorz" is generally what comes out rather than "i screwed up my phone" Apr 07 10:47:30 does frequency scaling also cause voltage scaling? Apr 07 10:47:48 probably yes Apr 07 10:47:53 ok Apr 07 10:47:56 corecode: i don't know how it's on nokia Apr 07 10:48:03 but in normal PCs - no Apr 07 10:48:04 Oh this is hilarious, first all the naysayers like to believe it will degrade the CPU and then they change tactic to battery degredation. This is fun. Do you guys have pull strings as well? Apr 07 10:48:13 jacekowski: well actually no Apr 07 10:48:29 jacekowski: usually you would also drop the voltage when deccreasing the frequency Apr 07 10:48:33 jacekowski: or not? Apr 07 10:48:51 there are limits on how low you can go Apr 07 10:48:52 Termana: +1 Apr 07 10:48:53 on OMAP it should be part of the SmartReflex magic (no - not all of SmartReflex is switched off by default) Apr 07 10:49:16 Termana: seems to be a quite conservative crowd here Apr 07 10:49:18 and when you drop voltage you risk that your cpu will reset Apr 07 10:49:22 Termana: who'se changed "tactic"? ocing the chip will cause electromigration damage over time, thats just a fact Apr 07 10:49:23 Termana: lots of FUD Apr 07 10:49:34 lots if idiots Apr 07 10:49:34 nidO: why? Apr 07 10:49:44 what dyou mean "why"? Apr 07 10:49:51 Termana: overclocking generates more heat for starters Apr 07 10:49:52 physics is why. Apr 07 10:50:01 why does a higher frequency cause electronmigration? Apr 07 10:50:07 that is wrong Apr 07 10:50:15 corecode: it's just speeding it up Apr 07 10:50:17 higher temperature does Apr 07 10:50:18 no, that is right Apr 07 10:50:19 drasticaly Apr 07 10:50:26 corecode: nope Apr 07 10:50:50 have some scientific sources? Apr 07 10:50:53 corecode: you obviously have no idea whatsoever about electromigration Apr 07 10:51:07 corecode: Higher speed causes higher current. Apr 07 10:51:11 DocScrutinizer: Lots of idiots? This is coming from the guy who took a part in implementing the Glamo chip, something that has been accepted as a somewhat failure? Apr 07 10:51:19 SpeedEvil: higher voltage does Apr 07 10:51:28 corecode: higher current at a higher temperature causes it more too Apr 07 10:51:34 yes, yes Apr 07 10:51:39 corecode: electromigration and voltage have little to do with each other Apr 07 10:51:53 corecode: electromigration is a phenomenon in conductors. Apr 07 10:51:56 hey, I need recommendation for choosing platform in maemo Apr 07 10:51:57 why does higher frequency cause higher current? Apr 07 10:52:11 shoud I choose "native" one, or QT ? Apr 07 10:52:18 Termana: beware. Now you start to get not only personal, but also are using incomplete facts. this might earn you things you don't appreciate Apr 07 10:52:26 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electromigration Apr 07 10:52:27 corecode: because it does. Each clock transistion involves charging or discharging parasitic capacitors in the circuit. Apr 07 10:52:34 I have heard that in Maemo 6, the native platform will be changed to QT Apr 07 10:52:44 corecode: frequency is - to a first order - proportional to current. Apr 07 10:52:46 code in qt Apr 07 10:52:49 should I start with QT from now on Apr 07 10:52:50 that's been the stance for a while Apr 07 10:52:58 SpeedEvil: yes, but the slopes are not steeper, but just happen more often, no? Apr 07 10:53:27 Termana: and I'm not talking about putting "termara is gay" to chantopic >:-( Apr 07 10:53:32 DocScrutinizer: Oh and i suppose calling people idiots isn't personal? Apr 07 10:53:48 jesus Apr 07 10:53:49 corecode: at that frequencies capacitaces start to matter Apr 07 10:53:49 corecode: A flow with ripples at 1200MHz is essentially the same as a constant flow in practice. Apr 07 10:53:50 break it up Apr 07 10:54:10 corecode: as the ripples start to blur into one another Apr 07 10:54:41 fair enough Apr 07 10:55:13 Termana: your completely flase assumption about my role in selecting glamo for sure qualifies *you* to the title 'idiot' Apr 07 10:55:15 corecode: anyway. The existing datasheet says that life is significantly affected (to 1/5th) if you use 500MHz or 600MHz Apr 07 10:55:29 DocScrutinizer: Termana: what is up with you? Apr 07 10:55:38 * noobmonk3y_ is gonna go play fotty... w00p c-yall laters Apr 07 10:55:52 footy* Apr 07 10:56:41 SpeedEvil: so what does that mean? one time 600MHz? constant operation at 600 vs 500? Apr 07 10:56:53 corecode: the manual states one time. Apr 07 10:56:59 corecode: this is clearly pessimistic Apr 07 10:57:03 yea Apr 07 10:57:13 corecode: but the exact mechanism is unclear. Apr 07 10:57:31 possibly they want to sell chips that have a higher nameplate rating Apr 07 10:57:50 And indeed that's possible. Apr 07 10:58:04 im having dinner with a guy who works at arm tomorrow, i'll see if I can get any insider info on life expectancies ;) Apr 07 10:58:07 DocScrutinizer: So now your threatening me with a ban is that it? Getting a little pussy footed are we? Don't like it because you want to change your argument in the middle of a discussion. Not only that, but you state yourself, you have no proof, your only theorizing and yet you still continue to say your presenting facts. Apr 07 10:58:24 It's also possible they have found that the chip is in fact unreliable at higher speeds due to some technical issue. Apr 07 10:58:33 sure Apr 07 10:58:33 And you don't know this till your device dies. Apr 07 10:58:55 Termana: fuck you sir Apr 07 10:58:56 now we have evidence that similar chips are being used at higher frequencies by other platforms Apr 07 10:58:57 power-on-hours-rating of a phone I'm using rarely needs to go much over one year, or at least two years. and again, there are numerous applications where such short lifetime is completely unacceptable. Apr 07 10:59:06 kirma: Indeed. Apr 07 10:59:13 corecode: there are a couple of speed grades. Apr 07 10:59:19 ok Apr 07 10:59:26 DocScrutinizer, Termana: Please stop this now. Apr 07 10:59:32 corecode: the one in the n900 is presumably not the higher rated one. Apr 07 10:59:39 X-Fade: ignore list did its job Apr 07 10:59:43 however i don't think that electromigration would play a significant role in those differences Apr 07 10:59:43 I hope stable overclocking doesn't reduce it to less than an year, though. Apr 07 10:59:56 corecode: Why not? Apr 07 11:00:09 SpeedEvil: well the fab process probably is the same Apr 07 11:00:18 SpeedEvil: just testing puts them i different lots Apr 07 11:00:32 like desktop cpu manufacturing Apr 07 11:00:48 corecode: electromigration is proportional to current ^2. If you have a chip that can run at a lower voltage - the current at a given clock is reduced. Apr 07 11:00:53 check for stable frequencies, increase yield Apr 07 11:01:14 Ah! A war! Apr 07 11:01:15 ah i see Apr 07 11:01:45 corecode: And conversely - if you have a chip that requires a higher voltage to clock at - say - 720MHz - it may take it below an acceptable life threshold if actually clocked at 720. Apr 07 11:01:49 you're saying if a chip needs a higher voltage to run at high speed X, then better classify it as low freq Apr 07 11:01:52 yes, yes Apr 07 11:02:19 i was assuming that all chips run with the same voltage at the same frequency Apr 07 11:02:25 SpeedEvil: actually electromigration has a threshold Apr 07 11:02:25 if voltage (OPP) is the same, and wattage increses at square of speed ratio, it'd seem reasonable that electromigration would be fourth power of it Apr 07 11:02:44 anyways, what i'm trying to feel out is Apr 07 11:02:55 Basically yes. There are process variations that legitimately affect lifetime of the CPU at a given speed. There is also marketing. Working out which is which is for end-users impossible. Apr 07 11:02:58 b/me thinks irc has gotten as mumbojumbo as tmo this morning :p Apr 07 11:03:02 -b Apr 07 11:03:09 constant high frequency operation is clearly worse than constant low frequency operation Apr 07 11:03:11 kirma: wattage is proportional to speed. (to a first order) Apr 07 11:03:22 which would mean that clocking from 600 MHz to 950 MHz would, for instance, cut lifetime to 1/6.5536 Apr 07 11:03:39 kirma: you really can't do that sort of sum unfortunately. Apr 07 11:03:52 i'm trying to talk qualitatively Apr 07 11:03:53 kirma: well - you can. Apr 07 11:04:01 because we can't do it quantitatively Apr 07 11:04:06 kirma: but it requires information on the limiting rate step that only TI has Apr 07 11:04:27 so if life(low freq) > life(high freq) Apr 07 11:04:36 can we slip something in between Apr 07 11:04:54 SpeedEvil: as far as I remember it's squared... I've seen the equation in many places Apr 07 11:04:58 to get life(low freq) > life(occasional high freq) > life(high freq) Apr 07 11:05:11 It may be that this is complete bullshit, and any CPU clock speed at which it works, will continue to work for the normal lifetime of the chip. It may be that this is true for some fraction of devices. It may be true for no devices. Apr 07 11:05:50 corecode: as mentioned above, electromigration is not to be seen below a certain electron 'velocity' - it has a threshold. So crossing an unknown border may expose you to a jump from lifetime=infinite to lifetime<500h Apr 07 11:05:53 corecode: yeah - there is no data for that. Logically - the time at high speed must matter - I can't see a reason why 1s/day at 900MHz would be as bad as 1h/day Apr 07 11:06:04 morning Apr 07 11:06:36 corecode: But once you step out of the recommended operating region - it can be anything. Apr 07 11:06:38 I suspect the nasty part Nokia particularly doesn't like is permanent data corruption resulting from overly eager overclocking... like root filesystem corruption and application configuration corruption Apr 07 11:06:44 gents, quick question Apr 07 11:06:53 kirma: possibly. Apr 07 11:06:54 you know the lock code feature on the n900? Apr 07 11:06:57 kirma: md5sum / Apr 07 11:07:01 crashanddie: 12345 Apr 07 11:07:01 :P Apr 07 11:07:01 crashanddie: no. Apr 07 11:07:10 oh - and 12345 - yes. Apr 07 11:07:19 DocScrutinizer: yea, what's that function, really 'speed'? or what else Apr 07 11:07:24 would it be possible to use a code from something else? Does anyone know if that part of the software is open/extensible? Apr 07 11:07:38 crashanddie: lock code is stored in CAL area, accessible in libcal-dev Apr 07 11:07:47 but besides that, it's not open (UI) Apr 07 11:07:48 corecode: basically EV energy of the single electron Apr 07 11:07:56 corecode: you can never know unless you talk to the right guy at TI. Apr 07 11:08:00 SpeedEvil: I actually tried to measure stability of overclocking by fetching test tar.gz over wlan, decompressing it, and calculating sha1 checksum from that repeatedly Apr 07 11:08:06 haven't seen any problem yet Apr 07 11:08:13 corecode: it needs to kick a metal ion out of the crystal structure Apr 07 11:08:26 no untar, just gzip -dc | openssl sha1 Apr 07 11:08:32 DocScrutinizer: okay, so that would be voltage, i.e. proportional to used op voltage, temperature Apr 07 11:08:37 corecode: The 'real' function might be percentage of time with line 'x' passing more than 700mA Apr 07 11:08:39 SpeedEvil: of course Apr 07 11:08:41 Stskeeps: shame Apr 07 11:08:46 corecode: current Apr 07 11:09:12 current because of the amount of electrons? Apr 07 11:09:15 DocScrutinizer: Did you get my pm? If not I sent: "Ok, look I should probably appologize I was a bit harsh on the personal attacks. Sorry Apr 07 11:09:18 current = voltage * clockfreq Apr 07 11:09:24 13:09:15 < Termana> DocScrutinizer: Did you get my pm? If not I sent: "Ok, look I should probably appologize I was a bit harsh on the personal attacks. Sorry Apr 07 11:09:45 Ahh he put me on ignore did he? fair enough Apr 07 11:09:53 corecode: please stop spamming me with such quotes Apr 07 11:10:03 but that's not the current in a conductor Apr 07 11:10:10 at least not the instantaneous current Apr 07 11:10:16 but the average Apr 07 11:10:49 possibly my physical picture of transistors operating is a bit off Apr 07 11:11:15 but in my world they charge or discharge (once) per clock cycle Apr 07 11:11:18 and then stabilize Apr 07 11:11:51 more clock cycles = more charge/discharge cycles, but still no higher instantaneous current Apr 07 11:12:02 except for higher voltage Apr 07 11:12:04 of course Apr 07 11:13:27 speed of electromigration depends also on temperature, but it's much more challenging to start guessing what is the temperature of "hot spots" on silicon... ten, fifty or two hundred kelvins above ambient temperature? Apr 07 11:13:33 corecode: yep, you're probably right on tha one Apr 07 11:13:50 mostly Apr 07 11:14:25 and if memory serves, higher temperature = higher electron availability (or how it is called) Apr 07 11:14:42 i.e. lower resistance (if i'm not wrong) = higher current Apr 07 11:14:58 = more electrons flowing Apr 07 11:15:51 anyhow, what i'm trying to get at is, i guess temperature and duration of operation at high frequency probably both have a negative effect on life time Apr 07 11:15:52 corecode: but OMAP also has hardware 'SmartReflex' blocks that adjust volatges and curents of parts of the chip on a fits-for-the-operation-conditions base. So increasing clck might implicitly increase volage&|curent Apr 07 11:16:09 yes, that's what i'd suspect Apr 07 11:16:29 In Black's equation, it'd matter what's the ratio of absolute temperatures between scenarios, not the difference itself... so, differences have to grow pretty big in regard of kelvins to matter in that regard Apr 07 11:16:50 so, operating only maximum 10 seconds per minute on high frequency is clearly better than operating 58 seconds in a minute Apr 07 11:16:55 Yay, "apt-get install --reinstall kernel kernel-flasher" fail! Apr 07 11:17:09 I think SmartReflex just reduces voltage and current, not increase it from default Apr 07 11:17:41 i'd like to see a control in the kernel which lets me specify the fraction of time it may run the cpu at highest speed Apr 07 11:17:53 that means i'd get low latency Apr 07 11:18:02 kirma: please read the smartreflex datasheets and whitepapers on that Apr 07 11:18:39 but also the benefit of not frying my cpu if there is a runaway process Apr 07 11:18:49 now for something completely different: Apr 07 11:18:57 Any overclock seems to spam dmesg with: "WARNING: at /home/builder1/maemo-fremantle-armel-extras-devel/work/kernel-maemo-2.6.28/arch/arm/mach-omap2/clock34xx.c:443 omap3_noncore_dpll_set_rate+0x28c/0x2dc()" using the testing kernel Apr 07 11:18:57 what about an iphoneos compat layer Apr 07 11:19:24 DocScrutinizer: interesting if it's the other way, but yes, I can't be sure. Apr 07 11:19:31 can't anybody publish patches to the OC kernel? i only seem to see binaries Apr 07 11:20:33 what's the best place on maemo to look for the device model name (just to be used for generic info/stats)? in /proc/cpuinfo I find "Nokia RX-51 board", but is there any better source that would say explicitly "N900"? Apr 07 11:20:37 corecode, ask the binary publisher, they are bound by the GPL to give the source ;) Apr 07 11:20:37 corecode: I'm pretty surprised by the binary preference too... especially when the modified code is obviously under GPL Apr 07 11:20:44 wouldn't an iphoneos compat layer be a nice GSoC? Apr 07 11:21:02 RX-51 *is* N900 :) Apr 07 11:21:29 kirma: huh? sure Apr 07 11:21:58 ahh, missed wbs' statement Apr 07 11:23:02 kirma: ok, and that's the only place where I'd expect to find such info? Apr 07 11:23:29 Shit, my N900 just electromigrated! Apr 07 11:23:39 to another dimension? Apr 07 11:23:53 yep - lol Apr 07 11:23:54 PR1.2 Apr 07 11:23:59 where it is? Apr 07 11:24:04 is it Apr 07 11:24:11 was about to ask 'from USA to Canada?' Apr 07 11:24:19 Scelt: stop trolling all the people with a notification up on "1.2" Apr 07 11:24:36 Gadgetoid_mbp: you have one? Apr 07 11:24:36 electromigration officials don't approve overclocking? Apr 07 11:24:36 if anyone's set a highlight for 1.2 Apr 07 11:24:42 they deserve to be trolled mercilessly Apr 07 11:24:45 Gadgetoid_mbp, you have a highlight for pr1.2 ? Apr 07 11:24:51 haha Apr 07 11:24:58 nidO: y should someone have higlight for pr1.2? Apr 07 11:25:07 I have one for 12, just in case any likely young ladies turn up... booya! Apr 07 11:25:18 Scelt: beats me, its Gadgetoid_mbp that said it Apr 07 11:25:23 Now that is just wrong :) Apr 07 11:25:31 i have highlight for bacon still :) Apr 07 11:25:32 nidO: I consider to set up an autoresponder for .*1.2.* Apr 07 11:25:37 mm bacon Apr 07 11:25:45 nidO: ;D Apr 07 11:26:02 where is konttori when we need him? Apr 07 11:26:23 everybody seems to be ignoring my iphoneos compat layer idea Apr 07 11:26:55 corecode: i think someone was working on corefoundation Apr 07 11:27:27 is that the graphical interface? Apr 07 11:27:41 no Apr 07 11:27:45 further down Apr 07 11:27:56 I'm re-flashing my phone to stock as soon as I can figure out how, bits of the silicon keep electromigrating into my cup of tea Apr 07 11:28:06 ah, an API compat layer? Apr 07 11:29:14 whoa. Boom! http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=ef0_1270321344 Apr 07 11:29:16 :) Apr 07 11:29:40 why is the PR1.2 thread still alive? Apr 07 11:29:44 * MohammadAG pings mods Apr 07 11:30:21 MohammadAG you want it dead? Apr 07 11:30:43 Appiah, it's fake, and users keep commenting Apr 07 11:30:52 which one? Apr 07 11:31:06 http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=49390 ? Apr 07 11:31:40 Appiah, http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=598720 Apr 07 11:32:00 * TriztN900 keeps on hoping for a pr1.2 relase, but guess he should be more realistic and wait two or more weeks Apr 07 11:32:15 wow Apr 07 11:32:25 two threads? Apr 07 11:32:27 really amazing how people can get so excited Apr 07 11:32:39 wtf Apr 07 11:32:54 lo andrewfblack Apr 07 11:32:58 how many posts for a "pr1.2 false alarm"? Apr 07 11:33:01 two different thread numbers Apr 07 11:33:04 100? Apr 07 11:33:09 hey Stskeeps Apr 07 11:33:10 javispedro: I am betting on 666 Apr 07 11:33:24 hey, morning :) Apr 07 11:33:47 * MohammadAG goes back into lurking Apr 07 11:33:50 javispedro: if we had some moderators with global powers those posts would be gone Apr 07 11:33:52 tmo hasn't worked for me in a long long time :/ Apr 07 11:34:15 andrewfblack: I do believe in stronger moderation, but care has to be taken. Apr 07 11:34:17 tmo does need more moderation of stupid dumb threads and posts Apr 07 11:34:27 i have given up on tmo Apr 07 11:34:28 * andrewfblack tries not to go into rant mode again Apr 07 11:34:45 * javispedro does not want andrewfblack to go into rant mode, he also thinks more mods are needed :) Apr 07 11:34:47 Yes, tmo has become nearly ss. Apr 07 11:34:57 Yes, tmo has become nearly worthless. Apr 07 11:34:59 javispedro: not rant mode at you sorry just in general Apr 07 11:35:54 * RST38h believes into multitiered user privileges where newbie users have a limit of 3 comments per day and 1 new thread per week Apr 07 11:36:05 * mece wants OT threads away from "active topics" list. Apr 07 11:36:06 MohammadAG: how's your MeeGo? Apr 07 11:36:13 RST38h: good idea Apr 07 11:36:16 and idiot threads moved to OT asap. Apr 07 11:36:22 * RST38h also believes into corporal punishment though, so take his advice with caution Apr 07 11:36:35 mece: The definition of an "idiot thread" is subjective Apr 07 11:36:42 TriztN900, uninstalled it, i'll chroot it later Apr 07 11:36:51 javispedro: if you read my latest blog post on my idea on tmo moderation you will see I were I want a organized moderation staff with regular moderators reporting to global moderators so mods have some moderation also Apr 07 11:36:54 RST38h, well idiot threads are OT threads that are not in OT Apr 07 11:37:06 RST38h: add to that a feature to close threads on public request of a number of higher priorized users Apr 07 11:37:13 javispedro: Actually, the LAST thing tmo needs is more mods with god complex Apr 07 11:37:18 andrewfblack: yes, I did yesterdary. 20 is quite a lot Apr 07 11:37:36 mece: idiot thread should be deleted or moved to a new section just for idiot threads Apr 07 11:37:39 RST38h, more mods with no complex then :p Apr 07 11:37:39 javispedro: the lemmings are bad enough, I have no idea what lemmings with mod privileges will do Apr 07 11:37:46 javispedro: it really is less then double of what we have now Apr 07 11:37:56 MohammadAG: Real difficult to find, almost impossible to achieve with large mods count Apr 07 11:38:04 all we need are moderation thresholds and stuff Apr 07 11:38:08 how many mods are there? Apr 07 11:38:08 RST38h: that's the "care has to be taken part". Also, if we select a few of the "enlightened crew" as mods, only thing will happen is more "you loozers nokia conspirators" Apr 07 11:38:16 MohammadAG: when would you expect they get so far that it has something motre than xtem? around the release of nokias tablet? Apr 07 11:38:21 MohammadAG: In fact, hard limit on the number of comments/threads by newbies will do a much better job than a bunch of mods Apr 07 11:38:24 what about a mailing list instead Apr 07 11:38:33 people are less likely to subscribe Apr 07 11:38:35 javispedro: I figured that one certain sections having 2 mods, some having 1, and some mods having multiple sections Apr 07 11:38:37 problem solved Apr 07 11:38:38 javispedro: I do not believe in enlightenment Apr 07 11:38:52 I don't mind "joke" threads as long as they are in OT. But it would be nice if OT threads were not listed in Active Topics Apr 07 11:38:55 RST38h, I'm a mod on another site, and we don't seem to have problems with our mods Apr 07 11:38:55 mailing lists are evil Apr 07 11:38:59 javispedro: But examples of people going crazy with privilege are far too many Apr 07 11:39:01 how are mods picked anyways? Apr 07 11:39:17 RST38h: not neccesarily - it only takes one idiot new poster to post a "pr12 is hea!" thread and the ball's rolling, regardless of whether he posts any more Apr 07 11:39:23 TriztN900, no idea, not sure if you can ask in #MeeGo Apr 07 11:39:33 RST38h: still, I prefer crazy privileged bastard dictators with similar views as mines instead of chaos :) Apr 07 11:39:35 nid0: Actually, no Apr 07 11:39:52 nid0: Once lemmings waste all their comment allowances, they will think better Apr 07 11:40:01 MohammadAG, they are chosen through discussion and volonteering. Apr 07 11:40:04 javispedro: life is a controlled chaos anyway Apr 07 11:40:05 or register a new account. Apr 07 11:40:17 mece, no criteria? Apr 07 11:40:22 make them pay $1 to post! :) Apr 07 11:40:23 MohammadAG: think I'll wait until you say it's useble Apr 07 11:40:25 MohammadAG, not really, no. Apr 07 11:40:30 RST38h: I'd rephrase: "Life is an attempt to control chaos" Apr 07 11:40:35 javispedro: And believe me, whoever you choose as mods, your views are likely to deviate in the next 3-6 months Apr 07 11:40:46 MohammadAG, to not be a douchebag is one I think. Apr 07 11:40:51 RST38h: that would be true even if I were to choose myself as a mod Apr 07 11:41:04 mece, so any user can volunteer and nothing is looked at? Apr 07 11:41:12 RST38h: (I do not believe in enlightenment) don't tell this to raster XP Apr 07 11:41:47 voting system? Apr 07 11:41:53 yea Apr 07 11:41:57 +- Apr 07 11:42:18 enough down votes and poster wont be able to post for some time Apr 07 11:42:36 i vote for slashdot moderation Apr 07 11:42:39 (0, Troll) Apr 07 11:42:39 :P Apr 07 11:42:40 when we picked mods for the site anyone who filled the form got a thread in the mod section along with a poll Apr 07 11:43:25 I quess slashdot mod style works ok Apr 07 11:43:34 MohammadAG: mods are picked really by Reggie there is some disscuion but in the ends it Reggie who picks Apr 07 11:44:42 tbh whatever process is used is fine, the forum could just use more of them actively moderating the dumb stuff, and with oversight over each other Apr 07 11:44:55 MiXu-: rephrase: live *is* chaos Apr 07 11:45:32 andrewfblack, thanks for telling me who the admin is, never seen posts by him :) Apr 07 11:45:48 MohammadAG: he is very quiet on site Apr 07 11:46:14 MohammadAG: he really is a good guy but he Admins 5 or 6 sites and works Apr 07 11:46:24 yeah.. Apr 07 11:46:34 oh :( Apr 07 11:46:44 Stskeeps, well we've all seen how good slashdot is at silencing the idiots.... Apr 07 11:46:47 regge closed the porn thread after 19 pages Apr 07 11:46:50 reggie Apr 07 11:47:06 andrewfblack, no co-amins? Apr 07 11:47:07 porn thread? Apr 07 11:47:09 admins* Apr 07 11:47:12 You don't want porn thread. Apr 07 11:47:17 You want nice soft porn rope. Apr 07 11:47:27 SpeedEvil, "can we upload porn made using the N900 here" Apr 07 11:47:35 or something along the lines of that Apr 07 11:47:42 hello Apr 07 11:47:59 MohammadAG: no we have 3 global modes 2 are not very into doing it and 1 has basicly given up Apr 07 11:48:06 so, to sum it up: better learn to share tmo with the ... uh, special people. Apr 07 11:48:10 i install ussd-widget from testing , and try to add it to the desktop but nothing appear in the desktop Apr 07 11:48:22 anyidea ? Apr 07 11:48:25 E0x: sometimes widgets appear under other widgets Apr 07 11:48:28 andrewfblack, 3-2-1= err 0 Apr 07 11:48:39 E0x: also for some reason sometimes stuff appears on other desktops than the current Apr 07 11:49:00 SpeedEvil: i trough that and i look for it but nothing Apr 07 11:49:19 E0x: ? Apr 07 11:49:23 oh Apr 07 11:49:42 E0x: I seem to recall something in the .desktop file had to be fixed Apr 07 11:49:54 i mean thought* Apr 07 11:50:11 DocScrutinizer: hmm some link ? Apr 07 11:50:13 ah, yet another nice, quality thrad. Apr 07 11:50:53 E0x: sorry, I installed and patched USSD thingie some months ago, and I can't access it right now Apr 07 11:51:08 np Apr 07 11:51:12 let me google it Apr 07 11:52:41 lcuk: Porn thread? What the hell was THAT about? Apr 07 11:52:44 "fixing tmo" is just a can of worms Apr 07 11:53:01 * SpeedEvil adds curry powder to javispedros can of worms. Apr 07 11:53:12 tmo is a forum, means it's broken by design Apr 07 11:53:28 lol Apr 07 11:53:37 RST38h, http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=48336 *facepalm* was amusing actually Apr 07 11:54:09 My personal theory is that you when administrating a board, you can choose between it being "nice, lovable, enjoyable" or "useful", but never both. Apr 07 11:54:12 Heh, Texrat went bonkers at the US bloggers Apr 07 11:54:36 in fact there can be a certain balance between both extremes Apr 07 11:54:44 javispedro: There is also "detached" and I suspect it is the only right thing Apr 07 11:54:45 oh lord... Apr 07 11:54:55 lcuk: Oh Apr 07 11:55:08 javispedro: you have no choice though it will drive you insane on moderating it, unless you ignore it Apr 07 11:55:32 javispedro: there is no fair way to exclude people from contributing stupid posts. the forum is the product of its inputs Apr 07 11:55:44 javispedro: But yes, after seeing that porn thread helpfully quoted by lcuk, I believe we have to set limits on the amount of shit new users can post Apr 07 11:56:00 offensive thread :D Apr 07 11:56:09 javispedro: like level 1: 3 comments per day, no new threads Apr 07 11:56:17 "detached" usually means that the board has a natural tendency to the "lovable" but not useful side Apr 07 11:56:24 javispedro: level 2: 5 comments a day, 1 new thread a week Apr 07 11:56:33 it is quite typical of coders in irc to react to this in technocratic / tyrannical fashion, btw ;) Apr 07 11:57:25 <_llll_> i think the best way, on irc and elsewhere is to enforce on-topicness but have a spearate place where people can take other conversations Apr 07 11:58:00 That's what I've been saying. Apr 07 11:58:09 be quick to move threads to off topic area. Apr 07 11:58:18 the problem isn't the amount of crap in tmo - the problem starts when you think there's something that's not crap Apr 07 11:58:27 <_llll_> cause, the downside is it requires active moderaters Apr 07 11:58:45 my social engineering suggesxtion would be to place threads on frontpage based on number or ratio of recent posts, weighted by number of "thanks" Apr 07 11:58:57 the problem is that _we_ (as in, the technocratic coders in irc) want to put something that we think is not crap in tmo Apr 07 11:58:58 _llll_: not really. Apr 07 11:59:21 _llll_: it requires posters with a clue to outweigh the content-free-brigade Apr 07 11:59:40 <_llll_> hehe, fair enugh. i dont think you;ll ever get that on the internet Apr 07 11:59:44 how about a "content" tag Apr 07 12:00:22 or a filter by number of thanks would do me fine for quick scanning a thread i guess Apr 07 12:00:27 well I've had alot people say I shouldn't just be giving up and I shouldn't leave so here is my attempt to start something to change the way tmo works. http://maemo.org/community/brainstorm/view/setup_new_talk_moderator_structure/ Apr 07 12:00:45 how about starting *all* threads in OT area, and they may move to a meaningful topic area by vote of experienced users only Apr 07 12:01:06 how about just ignoring threads you arent interested in Apr 07 12:01:10 DocScrutinizer: i think i find the problem , i need install python Apr 07 12:01:12 DocScrutinizer, nearly all the big names in maemo.org started on itT Apr 07 12:01:28 E0x: yep, of course :-D Apr 07 12:01:32 DocScrutinizer, and it was a much more productive place before the N900 launch. Apr 07 12:01:32 but here at work everything is block Apr 07 12:01:50 DocScrutinizer: is wired , not app-manager resolve the dependecies ? Apr 07 12:01:53 since it seems we're brainstorming, I'd like to evolve _llll_'s idea: enforce stricter moderation in development (whatever code or art) subforums, keep the "light" moderation in general/device/offtopic forums which seem like a magnet for new users Apr 07 12:01:53 like apt-get do ? Apr 07 12:02:10 is wierd* Apr 07 12:02:12 E0x: dunno, should Apr 07 12:02:18 Unfortunately the masses of users that brought in generally aren't interested in being productive. Apr 07 12:02:35 javispedro: Sounds smart to me Apr 07 12:03:13 <_llll_> andrewfblack: leaving is quite extreme, but taking a steop back is good when the stress is getting bad - it's just software at the end of the day Apr 07 12:04:56 andrewfblack: remember to create the brainstorm discussion page.. in tmo ;) Apr 07 12:07:47 It's not just you! http://talk.maemo.org looks down from here. Apr 07 12:08:32 andrewfblack++ Apr 07 12:09:05 Apparently t.m.o has left andrewfblack before andrewfblack could leave t.m.o Apr 07 12:09:26 :) Apr 07 12:09:57 Does anyone know if the Debian Policy specifies 80 char line lengths for control files etc? Apr 07 12:10:03 <_llll_> haha Apr 07 12:10:22 <_llll_> X-Fade: pretty sure there's a limit, no idea if it's 80 or 67 or what Apr 07 12:10:24 javispedro: I did thanks Apr 07 12:10:39 X-Fade: actually no, since Homepage: or our own Bugtracker: can be larger than that Apr 07 12:10:58 javispedro: And things like desciption or icon? Apr 07 12:11:14 X-Fade: "Suggested" Apr 07 12:11:23 <_llll_> you can use \ to break the line, i would think Apr 07 12:11:45 _llll_: no, just break the line and continue on the next one with a space in front. Apr 07 12:11:57 yes for description, no for bugtracker :) Apr 07 12:12:08 Hi, all. I have just submitted my proposal in GSOC for the Pocket Jeeves project, it is a big project so I suggested in the proposal that it is divided in two parts; one for the speech recognition part only building the framework/APIs needed, and the other part is for adding functionalities and UI for the project, is this an acceptable idea ? Apr 07 12:12:09 javispedro: Hehe no not there ;) Apr 07 12:13:15 <_llll_> http://www.debian.org/doc/debian-policy/ch-controlfields.html i guess there's no limit Apr 07 12:14:10 incredibly enough, the spanish translation does say 80 column recomended, but the english one doesn't Apr 07 12:14:30 ah no, I'm reading the maint-guide Apr 07 12:14:46 <_llll_> i guess with long lines eg description will look bad in lists Apr 07 12:14:56 Most apps do adhere to it it seems, but for instance fmradio-player in diablo doesn't. Apr 07 12:15:07 <_llll_> hence the break+space thing i guess Apr 07 12:15:40 X-Fade: if dpkg tools parse it, I'd apply the "be flexible in what you accept..." rule Apr 07 12:16:02 javispedro: Yeah, just need to set my limits higher it seems ;) Apr 07 12:17:00 ah, those pesky languages with dynamically allocated arrays :P Apr 07 12:19:01 aha, tmo is back Apr 07 12:19:16 lunch break ;) Apr 07 12:19:16 * javispedro goes open another pr1.2 thread under his evil pseudonym Apr 07 12:23:20 javispedro: nope still the new tmo not the old :) Apr 07 12:23:34 hahaha Apr 07 12:24:22 MohammadAG, woooop! new hc in devel for ya :) Apr 07 12:24:33 well I got a meeting, I guess now I'm going to have to start working at work since i don't read tmo all day lol Apr 07 12:24:36 Noobmonk3y, type /ms read last Apr 07 12:25:14 invalid message index, on the n900 if that makes a dif? Apr 07 12:25:22 xchat? Apr 07 12:25:28 yeah Apr 07 12:25:37 /ms list then Apr 07 12:25:56 oooo how do i read it! Apr 07 12:26:08 got it Apr 07 12:26:18 -MemoServ- noobmonk3y has read your memo, which was sent at Apr 07 11:11:29 2010 Apr 07 12:26:19 lol! Apr 07 12:26:30 MohammadAG, i used scaling! Apr 07 12:26:46 just scaling max, not avail yet Apr 07 12:27:03 Noobmonk3y, it says 600MHz Apr 07 12:27:04 * javispedro renames Maemo 5 downloads page to "Peter's Operating System 5.0" Apr 07 12:27:12 startup screen work ok apart front the random font colours? Apr 07 12:27:15 on my 825MHz device Apr 07 12:27:25 Noobmonk3y, i like it Apr 07 12:27:30 even with the broken font Apr 07 12:27:40 yay! tis almost rdy for testing Apr 07 12:29:29 should be able to grep the scaling freq's and list em :) Apr 07 12:30:06 Noobmonk3y, which file are you cat'ing? Apr 07 12:30:23 if the successor has better screen/battery life i am so buying Apr 07 12:30:27 scaling_max_freq at the mo Apr 07 12:30:36 MohammadAG, have you jumped on the overclocking bandwagon? Apr 07 12:30:42 but can read the other one instead Apr 07 12:30:49 pupnik: and if it has capacitive screen with no stylus, or no hw keyboard? Apr 07 12:30:57 mece, yep Apr 07 12:31:03 i know the risks :) Apr 07 12:31:19 MohammadAG, well, how is it? Apr 07 12:31:31 mece, much much snappier Apr 07 12:31:43 haven't oc'd the dsp though Apr 07 12:31:50 and warranty breakier Apr 07 12:31:53 MohammadAG, 's n900 now moos's on load :) Apr 07 12:32:05 MohammadAG, they say it doesn't do much. Apr 07 12:33:06 Noobmonk3y, lol Apr 07 12:33:10 mece, actually it does Apr 07 12:33:13 lcuk, i'd assume people who do it, a) shold know how to turn it back= and b) probably dont care? Apr 07 12:33:18 haven't overclocked, but the underclocked 125 MHz step seems to be helping with battery life :) Apr 07 12:33:20 especially with microB (rendering) Apr 07 12:33:41 Nitial, good idea Apr 07 12:33:51 Noobmonk3y: there's no way to 'turn back' any damage done Apr 07 12:33:58 any ideas if that 125 could got to the official kernel/release? Apr 07 12:34:02 DocScrutinizer, hence b) Apr 07 12:34:25 Nitial: it's unstable Apr 07 12:34:32 Nitial: for some devices Apr 07 12:34:36 battery.reporting.current = 816 (0x330) (int) Apr 07 12:34:39 okay Apr 07 12:34:53 ? Apr 07 12:35:02 haven't noticed myself, so I guess I'm lucky Apr 07 12:35:03 ShadowJK: OK to point people at your script? Apr 07 12:35:03 taken off the charger since 12:40 AM Apr 07 12:35:15 cool Apr 07 12:35:32 now run joikuspot and watch you device burn!! Apr 07 12:35:35 MohammadAG, what time is it now? Apr 07 12:35:54 3:35 Apr 07 12:36:01 PM Apr 07 12:36:21 ohhhhhhhh my god! Apr 07 12:36:34 what have you been doing with your device then? Apr 07 12:36:38 i have just spotted and n900 in the wild!! Apr 07 12:36:44 woow! Apr 07 12:36:48 DocScrutinizer, true, damage done can't be reversed, but it can be stopped from going further Apr 07 12:36:49 did you flash yours? Apr 07 12:36:54 Noobmonk3y: and? Apr 07 12:37:07 and i'm going over to say hello! Apr 07 12:37:10 brb Apr 07 12:37:12 Noobmonk3y: is it your own? Apr 07 12:37:12 flash as in show, not reinstall Apr 07 12:37:15 mece, mine? yeah, with the custom kernel Apr 07 12:37:25 sorry Apr 07 12:37:26 lol Apr 07 12:37:34 meant noobmonk3y :) Apr 07 12:37:35 np Apr 07 12:37:41 nidO, and mid twenties cute woman :) may b a while, brbr Apr 07 12:37:50 photo plx Apr 07 12:37:52 * DocScrutinizer really wonders why all those people bought a N900 if they know for sure Nokia are all just morons nor knowing their job and not caring about delivering the best tradeoff between durability, standby time, and user experience to their customers. Hell if all those people are that much better on it than all the Nokia engineering staff, why did they bother to buy a Nokia hw then, rather than builkding their own? Apr 07 12:37:59 for proof of the device, obviously. Apr 07 12:38:11 lmfao! shes gone :( Apr 07 12:38:22 Noobmonk3y: stop lying Apr 07 12:38:22 will hunt her down later Apr 07 12:38:23 DocScrutinizer, which people? Apr 07 12:38:33 DocScrutinizer: that is also my opinion. note that I also think that they can sometimes fsck off stuff (usb host comes to mind) Apr 07 12:38:33 Noobmonk3y, hunt her down NOW Apr 07 12:38:33 crashanddie, :( Apr 07 12:38:49 howd you spot an n900 from far enough away to not just say hi straight off? Apr 07 12:38:53 DocScrutinizer: but to be fair to them that is probably more a political thing that engineering Apr 07 12:38:59 Noobmonk3y: first of all, no girl has an n900, secondly, you're in #maemo, there's no way you'd go talk to a chick Apr 07 12:39:02 i'm eating lunch, not gonna run round butlins after her! Apr 07 12:39:11 looooooool! Apr 07 12:39:15 overclocking N900 is something Nokia shouldn't encourage plainly because that would push the components beyond their manufacturer approved operating conditions... Apr 07 12:39:28 crashanddie, did you see the vids from yesterdays meet? Apr 07 12:39:30 overclocking the N900 isn't done to show that nokia engineers aren't good Apr 07 12:39:37 Noobmonk3y: i did not Apr 07 12:39:38 kirma, and they don't encourage it.. Apr 07 12:39:43 well at least from my pov Apr 07 12:39:43 may be dangerous or not, but I'd be really surprised if Nokia would sell devices overclocked, or even support the idea Apr 07 12:40:08 can someone link the thread in here please? tis on tmo. crashanddie 2 woomen and 2 men. Apr 07 12:40:23 woomen? Apr 07 12:40:27 kirma, half the life, half the price :p Apr 07 12:40:27 kirma: omap2420 was 330Mhz, but sold as 400Mhz Apr 07 12:40:32 :) Apr 07 12:40:33 plenty of manus sell overclocked devices of various kinds when theyre known to be stable and reliable at said overclock Apr 07 12:40:39 s/woomen/women Apr 07 12:40:51 / Apr 07 12:40:56 nidO: then they're not OVERclocked, are they? Apr 07 12:40:56 meh Apr 07 12:41:22 crashanddie, what else do you call something that's been overclocked if it's not overclocked? Apr 07 12:41:24 N00bmonk3y, I've seen one N900 in the real wild. Many at the university where I work. Apr 07 12:41:29 yeah surely chip is overclocked if it is run faster than marketing material said.. Apr 07 12:41:32 cool!!! Apr 07 12:41:35 nidO: clocked? Apr 07 12:41:44 how the university isn't "real wild" Apr 07 12:41:44 that was my first seen in the wild Apr 07 12:41:47 nvidia rates a gpu to x, graphics card manufacture sells the chip clocked to y, where y > x Apr 07 12:41:56 what would you call it if that's not overclocked? Apr 07 12:42:01 erhm Apr 07 12:42:05 noobmonk3y, the real wild was the guy behind the bar at a black metal concert :D Apr 07 12:42:12 lol!!!! Apr 07 12:42:27 right football time, back when i'm knackered Apr 07 12:43:04 toodles Apr 07 12:45:19 729 packages upgraded, 251 newly installed, 99 to remove and 0 not upgraded. Apr 07 12:45:19 Need to get 835MB of archives. After unpacking 524MB will be used. Apr 07 12:45:21 heh Apr 07 12:45:45 * javispedro ponders maemo.org free non-free definitions Apr 07 12:45:54 yet another can of worms Apr 07 12:45:58 indeed Apr 07 12:53:45 * DocScrutinizer suggests to all OC-fanbois to open an improvement-ticket with a request to implement a mode switch to device settings, so user can set device to a 'do turbo, expect device breakage any time' mode. Then leave the datasheet reading heavy lifting to those who actually *have* all the datasheets, and should know about the special idiosyncrasies of their own hw design. Rather than experimenting without any clear idea about the implications Apr 07 12:58:26 DocScrutinizer: ...and change all background colors to bloody RED!!! Apr 07 12:59:09 and use blinking text :P Apr 07 12:59:50 I remember my Linux distro version a few years ago where the root account by default had a red wallpaper image with bombs Apr 07 13:00:00 And put an "under construction" -animation Apr 07 13:00:36 also make it vibrate every few seconds Apr 07 13:00:37 andre__: it still has afaik ;-D Apr 07 13:00:44 for enhanced realism Apr 07 13:03:01 I think it's a valid request when user wants a maximum speed device and agrees on not caring about device stability and durability. But very sure it's Nokia who'd be the most knowledgable people to implement such a mode in a proper most effective way Apr 07 13:04:04 fiddling with cpu max clock in a random maner for sure isn't the way to do this Apr 07 13:05:03 supersonic phone! Apr 07 13:10:28 dont forget the recommendation from summit Apr 07 13:10:29 or the verbot Apr 07 13:13:07 * cehteh rather wonders if it would make sense to have a 125mhz kernel, race to idle aside, when i play netradio i have about 40% cpu at 250Mhz and it stays active no deeper sleep state Apr 07 13:14:13 yes Apr 07 13:14:27 race to idle only makes sense if you can actually hit idle ever Apr 07 13:14:41 If you're never in idle, then you want to be at the lowest frequency you can Apr 07 13:14:51 Problem is that you can hear frequency switches when listening to audio. Apr 07 13:14:54 Nokia could ship an 'app' in extras-devel, to crank up all the right dials in a consistent manner, to set device to a turbo mode, and they can get a 'EULA' you need to read on activating that mode, where it's clearly stated what - from an EE point of view - Nokia expects you're doing to your device and you agree to take full responsibility on any consecutive damage Apr 07 13:15:46 well dual core mobile cpus are on the horizon too :) Apr 07 13:15:54 X-Fade: ouch, that hurts Apr 07 13:16:13 imo thats the way to go especially when they can be independently sleep (and maybe clocked) Apr 07 13:16:18 DocScrutinizer: ;) Apr 07 13:16:28 you even hear multitasking, when listening to music... Apr 07 13:16:35 with a standard-kernel Apr 07 13:16:35 at least multicore is way better for low latency than any increase in cpu speed will give you Apr 07 13:17:33 (nokia turbo app) this could take a lot of momentum out of that OC madness Apr 07 13:17:55 or put a lot more into it Apr 07 13:18:04 for sure not Apr 07 13:18:12 "well if nokia release an app for that, even with a warning, it must be pretty safe, so lets go for it!" Apr 07 13:18:13 etc. Apr 07 13:18:37 well, that doesn't bother naybody then Apr 07 13:19:27 until the forum ends up filled with "nokia software bricked my phone!oneone" Apr 07 13:19:58 answer: heh great. So it did exactly what it stated it will do XP Apr 07 13:19:59 cant be worse than now .. rootfs full :P Apr 07 13:20:47 i bet you can throw a overclocked n900 higher when playing n900fly :o) Apr 07 13:20:54 come one.. try it Apr 07 13:25:50 wow, titan is really making overclocking the lazy man's hobby :D Apr 07 13:26:21 Can't wait to see reports of some fried N900's. Also makes me want to try it out.. :) Apr 07 13:26:27 "this is Nokia turbo app // YOU ARE ABOUT TO DAMAGE YOUR PHONE!! READ THIS WHOLE INFO! // you can a) abort and avoid losing your waranty, or select b) turbo mode: 15% boost in bogomips, 50% devices died after 300h operation in this mode, or c) super turbo: 25% boost, 50% lethal after 80h" Apr 07 13:29:28 DocScrutinizer: link to .deb? Apr 07 13:29:37 * toggles_w ducks ;-) Apr 07 13:46:24 Surely the primary reason for the stock frequency is to keep costs reasonable. Procuring OMAP3's validated at higher clock speeds would be *much* more expensive. I would imagine devices out there have very varied upper limits within the range expected of the fabrication process, some will rapidly fail at higher frequencies, others won't have their life-span noticeably affected. Apr 07 13:49:06 .. and the only way to find that out for a customer is to try it until it dies :) Apr 07 13:49:31 well stability issues and excessive heat may give a hint before it dies Apr 07 13:53:28 Stskeeps: what's " CAL area"? Apr 07 13:57:00 zeq: ack Apr 07 13:57:35 cehteh: not really Apr 07 13:58:01 DocScrutinizer, one of the builtin flash memory partitions containing system information, afaiu Apr 07 13:58:12 cehteh: stability is one issue, wear/silicon deterioration is a separate one Apr 07 13:58:25 mgedmin: thanks. Apr 07 13:58:40 http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=20465 Apr 07 14:00:13 DocScrutinizer: well they are somewhat (but not exactly) related, local hotspots on the silicon change resistance, make transistors act slower, but its also the heat which detoriates the chip over time Apr 07 14:00:34 Heat is one degrador. Apr 07 14:00:37 It is no thte only one Apr 07 14:00:45 yes .. i saied not exactly Apr 07 14:01:01 charge buildup and so on Apr 07 14:01:39 andrewfblack: good mail on devel ml Apr 07 14:08:58 cool :D ssh to phone irssi from phone Apr 07 14:09:15 chrome is just finishing to build Apr 07 14:09:16 LINK(target) out/Debug/chrome Apr 07 14:09:16 you must be new here Apr 07 14:09:26 ? Apr 07 14:09:29 it's just matter of linker finishing it's job Apr 07 14:09:37 and i have native maemo build Apr 07 14:10:09 i wish irc had a mobile/bad reception mode with quick reassociation or whatever Apr 07 14:10:10 its job Apr 07 14:10:41 hrw: Did you mean s/andrewfblack/Jaffa/? :-) Apr 07 14:11:01 pupnik: it's called a bnc Apr 07 14:11:17 hmm, rmms any one used it before? Apr 07 14:11:39 yea just to eliminate my work Apr 07 14:12:27 Ah, sweet, Sony just nuked PS3s with a "helpful" firmware update Apr 07 14:13:19 Jaffa: argh... I too often do that Apr 07 14:13:52 the linux support? Apr 07 14:14:16 pupnik: telnet sdf.org Apr 07 14:15:09 hmm Apr 07 14:15:20 pupnik: Was supposed to be the linux support, but accidentally nuked everything Apr 07 14:15:42 ~curse people which keyboards lack del key Apr 07 14:15:43 May the fleas of a thousand camels infest your most sensitive regions, people which keyboards lack del key ! Apr 07 14:16:27 confused.com Apr 07 14:17:21 FireStorm: please don't spam Apr 07 14:17:40 * pupnik goes for phood Apr 07 14:17:58 i didn't mean to :p put it in wrong channel!!!! Apr 07 14:18:04 irssi confuses me it has been a while Apr 07 14:18:07 pupnik: xchat ping_timeout=90 Apr 07 14:18:09 Good Apr 07 14:18:14 Now go to the right channel. Apr 07 14:18:51 RST38h: whats ps3 done then kill all ps3's using new update? Apr 07 14:19:20 FireStorm: talking gibberish at me is not recommended either. Apr 07 14:19:39 http://hardware.slashdot.org/story/10/04/07/022250/Largest-Sodium-Sulfur-Battery-Powers-a-Texas-Town n900 battery problem solved :) Apr 07 14:20:07 cehteh: i'd like to see you put that in your pocket Apr 07 14:20:13 cehteh, but thats a 350degree egg smelling molten core and can only give 8hrs Apr 07 14:20:22 FireStorm: seriously, get a grip please Apr 07 14:21:39 lcuk: I guess some people in here wouldn't notice the smell then Apr 07 14:21:55 depends how often mum cleans the room though Apr 07 14:21:59 anybody good with tech patents? :/ Apr 07 14:22:10 pupnik: quite Apr 07 14:22:12 RST38h, what DID happen with the ps3 upgrade Apr 07 14:22:29 lcuk: they removed the linux feature from all ps3's Apr 07 14:22:43 lcuk: so there's 6 unhappy people Apr 07 14:23:04 LOL Apr 07 14:23:14 that many? Apr 07 14:23:33 well, some may have died since the last census Apr 07 14:23:41 yeah Apr 07 14:23:50 * DocScrutinizer cackles Apr 07 14:24:36 cehteh: it's not the battery Apr 07 14:24:41 cehteh: it's software Apr 07 14:24:55 cehteh: if you leave it idling it can last for 4-5 days Apr 07 14:25:19 jacekowski: the sw is stinking like foul egg? XP Apr 07 14:25:51 jacekowski: but with that battery you can run it at full speed for a lifetime ... prolly all n900's ever produced :) Apr 07 14:26:57 yeah assuming the lifetime is reduced to some 24h by massive overclocking, as then the molten sulfur of the battery has chilled down too much Apr 07 14:27:36 cehteh: it's only 4MW Apr 07 14:27:41 cehteh: for 8h Apr 07 14:27:51 which is 32MWh Apr 07 14:28:02 not bad ;-P Apr 07 14:28:03 still quite impressive Apr 07 14:28:21 maybe only suffice to power the LHC for a few minutes, but thats another thing Apr 07 14:29:05 n900 battery is 4.9Wh Apr 07 14:29:45 hmm, am I doing math right? A N900 may eat some tens to hundereds of KWh in its lifetime? Apr 07 14:29:49 so that battery could power 6,5 million Apr 07 14:29:55 n900's Apr 07 14:30:08 see .. my guess wasnt wrong :) Apr 07 14:30:23 assuming that in worst case scenario you would charge it once a day Apr 07 14:30:28 for 2 years Apr 07 14:30:39 that would be 2*365*5 Apr 07 14:30:43 well there are less than 6.5mio n900 around Apr 07 14:31:02 dunno the sales figure but i bet less than 1mio Apr 07 14:31:07 so it would be 3.6kWh Apr 07 14:31:11 having a battery the size of a house isn't much of a problem until you need to lick the terminal to see if its flat Apr 07 14:31:13 over 2 years Apr 07 14:31:50 lcuk: and if its not flat you have a problem with a vaporized tounge Apr 07 14:32:08 jacekowski: thanks, so my 'math' was off by one magnitude at least Apr 07 14:32:40 hehe lcuk imagine shorting the battery out to see if it's got any life left in it!!!!! Apr 07 14:33:37 cehteh: nokia sells over 100 million phones per year Apr 07 14:33:58 DocScrutinizer: yeah Apr 07 14:33:58 yes, but n900 is certainly less than 1% of them Apr 07 14:34:07 DocScrutinizer: your kung fu isn't good enough Apr 07 14:34:52 Flat out, the n900 uses about 3W Apr 07 14:35:00 so, that's a pretty hard maximum Apr 07 14:35:15 30Kwh/year, or 300Kwh in 10 years Apr 07 14:35:24 konttori: where's the pr1.2? Apr 07 14:35:46 Scelt: no rush, release in november Apr 07 14:36:06 what year? Apr 07 14:36:12 2012 Apr 07 14:36:13 I think nokia sells about 100 million phones per quarter, not year Apr 07 14:36:37 hrw: I can't access ml from work what did it say? Apr 07 14:37:10 andrewfblack: I (again) messed names Apr 07 14:37:23 hrw: k Apr 07 14:37:41 Jaffa: http://wiki.maemo.org/Task:PR1.2_autobuilder I don't know if I can abuse the task namespace like this, so feel free to move... :P Apr 07 14:37:44 ~3 * 24 * 365 Apr 07 14:37:45 26280 Apr 07 14:38:13 i have no plans on overclocking my device, but wouldn't 125-600MHz clock variety make the battery actually lasting longer? Apr 07 14:38:23 jacekowski: so my kung fu wasn't such bad Apr 07 14:38:27 FIQ: probably, yes. Apr 07 14:38:28 javispedro: Cool, want to post that on the ML thread? I think it's going to be a task for X-Fade in this timebox^Wsprint Apr 07 14:38:28 javispedro: I would vote for reverting to safe SDK for extras Apr 07 14:38:36 instead of 250-600 as in the default Apr 07 14:38:46 Hi, I'm changing N900 kernel and I was willing to update the eMMC root image to include my new zImage and the kernel modules, using instructions from http://wiki.maemo.org/Modifying_the_root_image and http://forums.internettablettalk.com/showthread.php?p=403015 , do I need specific instructions other than just replacing zImage and the kernel modules? Apr 07 14:38:47 Jaffa: yep Apr 07 14:38:49 FIQ: some devices are not stable at 125 though Apr 07 14:38:54 ah Apr 07 14:38:58 javispedro: Ta Apr 07 14:39:16 you did the initial "condensantion" of options and pros/cons :) Apr 07 14:39:16 Jaffa, javispedro: with unknown release date of pr1.2 there is no sense in having extras-devel/testing broken Apr 07 14:39:29 who knows will pr1.2 get released at all Apr 07 14:40:02 will be the same when pr1.2+1 comes, etc. Apr 07 14:40:26 who knows? maybe they will bump soname of libs this time? Apr 07 14:40:40 that wouldn't help Apr 07 14:40:41 so libhildon1 in 1.2, libhildon2 in 1.3 etc Apr 07 14:41:11 anyway it just shows how nokia care about devs Apr 07 14:41:16 the issue here is that if we built packages in the pr1.2 sdk they have a libhildon2 dep, if we build packages in the 1.0 sdk they have a libhildon1 dep Apr 07 14:41:29 whatever they use pr1.2 or pr1.0 features Apr 07 14:41:37 implement shlibssymbols Apr 07 14:41:37 s/wherever Apr 07 14:41:57 hrw: (sonames) let's pray Apr 07 14:41:59 hrw: Agreed Apr 07 14:42:09 hrw: requires newer debhelper :( Apr 07 14:42:18 javispedro: dh7 is in repos Apr 07 14:43:05 and yes, I know that shitbox can override some parts but that can be workarounded with magic shitbox env vars Apr 07 14:43:17 * javispedro thinks about upgrading the debian toolchain in a pr and shudders Apr 07 14:44:25 btw (ot) does rpm implement something akin to dpkg's .symbol files? Apr 07 14:44:36 no idea Apr 07 14:45:29 I know one thing - I need to collect all my sd/microsd/etc cards cause I lost track Apr 07 14:45:50 Hi guys, I got a question about MeamoMapper and GPS on the N810. I can not get a fix at all unless I start Nokia's Map application which get a fix immediately. Is there a way to "fix" MaemoMapper ? Or an easier way of getting a fix than using Nokia's Map ? Apr 07 14:46:11 <_berto_> implement shlibssymbols Apr 07 14:46:15 <_berto_> that would be the solution Apr 07 14:46:53 _berto_: question is: is it worth time? Apr 07 14:47:09 <_berto_> http://wiki.debian.org/Projects/ImprovedDpkgShlibdeps Apr 07 14:47:34 <_berto_> I think it is, there are lots of compatibility problems in debian because of that Apr 07 14:47:52 <_berto_> you cannot install a package from a more recent distribution in cases where you should be able Apr 07 14:49:05 note that I tried to create a package with .symbols files using the base maemo toolchain, and you can. Apr 07 14:49:07 * noobmonk3y lost in the semi's :( Apr 07 14:49:23 the issue is that the amount of verbosity with the current outdated debhelpers is huge Apr 07 14:49:54 <_berto_> but does it work? Apr 07 14:50:20 We could do tests with: http://scratchbox.org/debian/dists/stable/main/binary-i386/scratchbox-devkit-debian-squeeze_1.0.3_i386.deb Apr 07 14:50:23 you can't use dh_shlibdeps and have to bring your own. Apr 07 14:50:30 if you call that working ... :D Apr 07 14:50:41 This is a newer devkit, but we need to make sure that is not breaking more things than it fixes. Apr 07 14:50:42 <_berto_> what do you mean by 'bring your own' ? Apr 07 14:51:10 reimplement it or grab the newer debian's version and put it in the packaging Apr 07 14:51:11 <_berto_> I can prepare a list of the symbols introduced in each libhildon release, if that helps Apr 07 14:51:32 _berto_: even if they're not used, we could start doing that NOW. Apr 07 14:51:43 MohammadAG, /sys/devices/system/cpu/cpu0/cpufreq/Scaling_available_frequencies - is that the one to list from? Apr 07 14:54:34 * andrewfblack is running Open Office, and Inkscape on his N900....Well ok I'm running it on my work PC but the files are stored on the N900 lol Apr 07 14:56:29 X-Fade: interesting. seems to ship updated dh_shlibdeps (unlike the lenny devkit :P ) Apr 07 14:57:09 javispedro: Yes it does. Apr 07 14:58:16 * javispedro wonders if that will be the default for harmattan Apr 07 14:58:54 javispedro: Quite possible. The tools will be updated to more recent versions at least. Apr 07 14:58:57 noobmonk3y, cat it, does it give you four/five values? Apr 07 14:59:04 yeah Apr 07 14:59:11 if yes, highest (first) is max, lowest (last) is min Apr 07 14:59:12 just splitting them down now and will add them Apr 07 14:59:15 yup Apr 07 14:59:39 of course divide by 1000 to make it MHz instead of Hz Apr 07 15:00:37 anyway, does anyone consider getting hildon .debs rebuilt with appropriate symbol times BEFORE pr1.2 (and at least before pr1.3) possible? I have my own doubts :P Apr 07 15:01:01 s/times/files Apr 07 15:01:09 javispedro: On the builder we can install an additional package for instance. Apr 07 15:01:21 javispedro: Containing symbols. Apr 07 15:01:37 heh, ugly but would work :P Apr 07 15:02:00 Or change the sdk locally. Apr 07 15:03:08 symbol files go iirc to /var/lib/dpkg/info/libfoo-dev.symbols (reason I think an external "libfoo-dev-symbols" package would be ugly) Apr 07 15:03:43 see your local debian install for samples Apr 07 15:03:50 But would keep the original sdk in place. Apr 07 15:04:12 Not really feeling a lot for maintaining an sdk :) Apr 07 15:04:37 Hi guys, I got a question about MeamoMapper and GPS on the N810. I can not get a fix at all unless I start Nokia's Map application which get a fix immediately. Is there a way to "fix" MaemoMapper ? Or an easier way of getting a fix than using Nokia's Map ? Apr 07 15:04:49 the symbol files also need maintaining... :P hopefully, less. Apr 07 15:05:02 i want to know how you have gps on n810 that gets a fix immediately Apr 07 15:05:51 X-Fade, would any sdk modifications be forward thinking Apr 07 15:05:52 lcuk: if I start Nokia's Map while outside, I got a fix under a minute Apr 07 15:06:06 reproducibility: 100% Apr 07 15:06:08 so that when we come round to 1.3 for instance we could use same principle Apr 07 15:06:24 or harmattan, with the community maintained hildon Apr 07 15:06:25 or is this a sticking plaster specifically for 1.2 Apr 07 15:06:29 lcuk: Ideally the sdk people would fix it ;) Apr 07 15:06:30 yes Apr 07 15:06:36 * lcuk nods sagely Apr 07 15:06:46 But with that symbol package we could do it ourselves. Apr 07 15:06:52 yeah. Apr 07 15:06:56 http://maemo.org/community/brainstorm/view/setup_new_talk_moderator_structure/ made it to under vote in less then 2 hours Apr 07 15:07:11 liking it so far. Apr 07 15:07:19 We now install the optify package after rootstrap extraction too. Apr 07 15:07:26 andrewfblack, your blog post fails when i click from planet Apr 07 15:07:31 So in that step we can add the symbols. Apr 07 15:07:37 of course the fact that we align more with debian again is a nice plus :) Apr 07 15:07:44 refresh screen should work then Apr 07 15:07:45 The only tricky part is the devkit. Apr 07 15:07:49 X-Fade, optify should theoretically be a noop on scratchbox Apr 07 15:08:18 lcuk: No, package optify thingie. Apr 07 15:08:32 maemo-optify-runonce Apr 07 15:08:34 i know Apr 07 15:08:42 no Apr 07 15:08:50 ahh different one Apr 07 15:09:07 wow I've hit 7 thumb downs now on each my blog posts now Apr 07 15:09:27 andrewfblack, do they all fail to show when you click them Apr 07 15:09:31 like it does for me Apr 07 15:09:35 hm... mailing list bouncing my message :S Apr 07 15:09:40 lcuk: maemo-optify in extras-devel. Apr 07 15:09:47 :O Apr 07 15:09:53 javispedro: and it should ;) Apr 07 15:09:59 lcuk: I think its my new theme they used not to but this week they started failing some Apr 07 15:10:14 aw, sorry, wrong From: address :( Apr 07 15:10:45 andrewfblack, yeah, your theme this week has been quite gloomy :p Apr 07 15:11:06 lcuk: been a gloomy week for me Apr 07 15:11:22 :( Apr 07 15:11:37 is that why the thumbs down Apr 07 15:13:27 lcuk: me being gloomy or bug in me theme? Apr 07 15:13:36 I think because I've been gloomy Apr 07 15:13:49 a bit of both i think Apr 07 15:14:01 you need to fix external links into your site though if you want your message Apr 07 15:14:41 * noobmonk3y prods lcuk Apr 07 15:23:57 sigh. The only reason tmoers want more mods is to ban posters that lie to them about release date of pr1.2 :P Apr 07 15:24:40 muhaha Apr 07 15:26:55 MohammadAG: ping Apr 07 15:27:32 * andrewfblack needs to write his own wordpress theme Apr 07 15:28:56 javispedro: sounds good to me \o/ Apr 07 15:29:35 nid0: bah. if the ridiculous pr1.2 thread were to gain a few posts more I would've posted that myself Apr 07 15:30:11 i'm sure the original grandposter of the "pr1.2 released" thread is now laughing from the comfort of his couch Apr 07 15:30:46 lcuk: there a little less gloomy looking now Apr 07 15:31:25 wow ranked up 2 more thumb downs Apr 07 15:45:18 any way tool for get battery status in number , i was trying to get /proc/apci/battery/BAT0/info Apr 07 15:45:22 but not luck Apr 07 15:46:21 hello Apr 07 15:46:35 any GSOC mentor here? Apr 07 15:46:56 is maemo/meego doing GSOC? Apr 07 15:47:04 yes Apr 07 15:47:17 cool Apr 07 15:47:21 BTW, sup Stskeeps Apr 07 15:47:24 :) Apr 07 15:47:39 not much Apr 07 15:47:48 hows work? Apr 07 15:48:27 good Apr 07 15:48:31 lol Apr 07 15:48:44 last time you said "frustrating" so i guess things are looking up? :) Apr 07 15:49:20 yeah - i am, working for maemo.org is cool :) Apr 07 15:49:44 hi, i upgraded my scratchbox to 1.2, now my progs don't work for the n900, how can i downgrade my scratchbox? Apr 07 15:52:15 basil, afaik you can't Apr 07 15:52:30 unless you install the old packages manually Apr 07 15:52:48 apt-get install libqt-maemo5? Apr 07 16:02:01 mwahaha :D http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/hell.png Apr 07 16:05:53 basil: :o Apr 07 16:05:59 basil: PM Apr 07 16:06:28 PM? Package Manager? Apr 07 16:06:42 basil: private message ;) Apr 07 16:06:53 I queried you. Apr 07 16:07:43 i'm new to irc, what means to query? Apr 07 16:07:57 embarrasing, i know Apr 07 16:11:38 basil: I think you can't downgrade the SDK, you'de need to remove it and reinstall the old one. Though it might be better to find out what the actualy problem is with your progs because PR 1.2 will be out some time in the future. Apr 07 16:12:00 PR 1.2 out?!? Apr 07 16:12:12 when is pr1.2? Apr 07 16:12:18 should be soon Apr 07 16:12:57 PR1.2 is out, quickly go post that on TMO! Apr 07 16:13:11 <_berto_> we're waiting for the final release of duke nukem forever, it'll be one of the highlights in PR1.2 Apr 07 16:13:42 hurray!! let's start a new thread on TMO! :-D Apr 07 16:14:34 PR1.2 is so last week. Can we find another story already? Apr 07 16:14:46 MeeGo UI on the N900 Apr 07 16:14:57 you mean a xterm? Apr 07 16:15:14 PR1.2 OUTOUTUTTVITTU? Apr 07 16:15:19 Stskeeps, no a UI! (was just answering javispedro's request :P) Apr 07 16:15:38 MohammadAG: then call it propertly! "Handset UX" Apr 07 16:15:42 ;P Apr 07 16:15:43 * slonopotamus yawns Apr 07 16:15:43 why care? Apr 07 16:15:53 javispedro, off to TMO then Apr 07 16:15:55 :P Apr 07 16:16:13 anyone know whether krk969 (author of showtime for maemo) comes on IRC? Apr 07 16:16:22 ~seen krk969 Apr 07 16:16:23 I want online speech recognition and translation in PR2.0 Apr 07 16:16:24 javispedro: i haven't seen 'krk969' Apr 07 16:16:37 javispedro: he might use another nick, that's just his TMO user Apr 07 16:16:41 * w00t_ doesn't know Apr 07 16:17:12 http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=49434 Apr 07 16:17:13 http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=42338 Apr 07 16:17:15 :/ Apr 07 16:17:59 bonus points since both of the threads where in active topics a few minutes ago Apr 07 16:20:56 MohammadAG: did you have any luck btw? Apr 07 16:21:09 if not I'll give it a crack in a bit Apr 07 16:22:02 w00t_, yeah, I postponed test, so I guess that's good luck Apr 07 16:22:06 * MohammadAG fires up scratchbox Apr 07 16:22:13 haha Apr 07 16:22:19 when is it now? Apr 07 16:22:25 sat :P Apr 07 16:22:39 * MohammadAG goes to laptop Apr 07 16:56:43 * VDVsx wonders why the channel is so quite today 0.o something happened for sure :D Apr 07 16:57:05 dunno :P Apr 07 16:57:14 users got tired of waiting for pr1.2 and mass sold their n900s Apr 07 16:58:03 ah, the meego forum, is everybody posting there ? :D Apr 07 16:58:27 oh dear, they made a forum Apr 07 16:59:06 tmo 2.0 :D Apr 07 16:59:08 hrw: any pointers to good cheap sells? Apr 07 16:59:38 lots of overclocked devices melted. the remaining healthy ones are sold on ebay for very high prices Apr 07 17:00:09 VDVsx: btw, do you know how many gsoc applications maemo got up til now? Apr 07 17:00:22 I just read "users got hired for waiting for pr1.2 and mass soldered their n900s" - perhaps the pizza was too spicey, after all ... Apr 07 17:01:00 rotfl Apr 07 17:01:30 tell me where from you got these spices Apr 07 17:01:45 Shapeshifter, not sure, didn't checked in the last two days Apr 07 17:01:45 err, 'spices' Apr 07 17:02:10 VDVsx: when you last checked, how many were there? Apr 07 17:02:27 thoses 'spices' supposedly came from the UAE ... Apr 07 17:03:00 gnhnhnhnhn Apr 07 17:03:49 hmph, too late for a "1st post!" already Apr 07 17:04:34 * DocScrutinizer got hungry for a good pizza now Apr 07 17:05:22 http://forum.meego.com Apr 07 17:05:37 hi all, im planning to submit a gsoc app for creating a remote app for maemo, which is similar to "http://www.apple.com/itunes/remote/" Apr 07 17:05:48 using dacp , to control itunes Apr 07 17:05:51 http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=599601#post599601 :) Apr 07 17:05:57 http://b-man.xceleo.org/images/fedora :) Apr 07 17:06:05 any pointers? Apr 07 17:07:14 for a proof of concept, it can b tested on itunes, but adding the support for rhythmbox shd not be difficult Apr 07 17:07:46 b-man|ubuntu: meego! ;) Apr 07 17:08:13 javispedro: lol true xD Apr 07 17:08:29 venkat: to control itunes? Mh well. I'm not sure if the API is open, even. In any case, people "should" rather be using something like mpd for this stuff... it's the prime use case of one machine playing and the other being a client. and there's mpd clients for the n900 already. Apr 07 17:08:46 dacp is what they use Apr 07 17:08:49 its not open Apr 07 17:08:52 Shapeshifter, 34, iirc Apr 07 17:08:56 but people have ported to android Apr 07 17:09:31 mikhas, I warned you about the spices :D Apr 07 17:09:46 so, the idea will not win? Apr 07 17:10:14 VDVsx: thanks Apr 07 17:10:22 i swear i saw "trapster" available in an app catalog.. Apr 07 17:10:36 Shapeshifter, so you are saying i can control my media player now with n900? Apr 07 17:11:00 venkat: if your media player is based on mpd. which imho is a brilliant solution. Apr 07 17:11:27 but not itunes. and while itunes support might be attractive to some people, I'd not support a rubbish piece of software like that. Apr 07 17:11:54 rubbish? Apr 07 17:11:58 itunes. Apr 07 17:11:59 i think you give it too much credit Apr 07 17:12:04 ;) Apr 07 17:12:05 ^^ Apr 07 17:12:41 amarok ftw Apr 07 17:12:47 venkat: never heard of mpd? you run the server somewhere (the part which indexes the music and holds the db) and the you use any of the gazillion clients: http://mpd.wikia.com/wiki/Clients Apr 07 17:12:58 multiple users can control it simultaneously? Apr 07 17:13:07 venkat: sure Apr 07 17:13:14 neat. will read about it Apr 07 17:13:40 w00t_, Can i borrow your brains please? :D Apr 07 17:13:50 noobmonk3y: you can certainly try Apr 07 17:13:53 http://pastebin.com/GbdmZn2F Apr 07 17:14:01 Sooo close but gettin goperand issues Apr 07 17:14:21 which line is causing problems, and what do you get? Apr 07 17:14:29 * w00t_ bets line 10 will be problematic Apr 07 17:14:30 trying to read each part of 1 line in a file so example 6000000 500000 400000 Apr 07 17:14:42 and yup line 10 is operanding me out Apr 07 17:14:45 tried a few variants Apr 07 17:14:50 use str() Apr 07 17:14:59 Shapeshifter, how about bring ubuntu one to maemo? has someone applied for the same idea? Apr 07 17:15:01 surrounding the s/1000 Apr 07 17:15:03 you can't append a number to a string in python without 'casting' Apr 07 17:15:08 aa = aa + str(s/100) + "MHz, " Apr 07 17:15:34 applied for the same idea? :| Apr 07 17:16:06 oh not me Apr 07 17:16:07 lol Apr 07 17:16:23 its one of the listed ideas. So I thought there will be multiple students wud have opted to do the same Apr 07 17:16:35 Hi, bad things happen, and so I locked my SIM. I have no idea what could go wrong, i am sure i entered the pin correctly... So how do I, now, unlock the sim? (I *have* the PUK code) Apr 07 17:16:38 still get an unsupported operand error for /: str and int Apr 07 17:16:41 venkat: no idea. I applied myself with an idea. But competition seems really tough. Apr 07 17:17:32 Shapeshifter, if u dont mind, can you share your idea that u applied for? Apr 07 17:18:29 venkat: why? ;) I applied for the "desktop search" widget. Apr 07 17:18:58 Shapeshifter, simply so that i opt a different one :) Apr 07 17:20:15 LuciusMare: in settings in menu there should be an unlock entry IIRC Apr 07 17:20:54 venkat: I bet some applied for the same project. the better applications wins I guess, *if* the proposal itself is being considered. Apr 07 17:21:25 Shapeshifter, can you name some media players that support mpd? Apr 07 17:22:10 Shapeshifter: desktop search like in beagle/spotlight ? Apr 07 17:22:25 DocScrutinizer: yeah Apr 07 17:22:40 DocScrutinizer: it says "Cellular data unavailible" Apr 07 17:22:47 venkat: mpd itself is the "player". and there's lots of clients which control it. Apr 07 17:22:56 s/availible/available/ Apr 07 17:22:57 LuciusMare meant: DocScrutinizer: it says "Cellular data unavailable" Apr 07 17:23:02 venkat: I've sent you the link to the client list earlier Apr 07 17:23:35 LuciusMare: please quote exactly which entry/function you used Apr 07 17:23:39 Shapeshifter, never knew this b4!!! Apr 07 17:23:43 settings>phone Apr 07 17:24:04 LuciusMare: you need to go to the menu(!) of settings Apr 07 17:24:16 oh Apr 07 17:24:28 yes, there is, thanks :) Apr 07 17:24:34 Shapeshifter, you are planning todo incremental search? Apr 07 17:25:04 start giving results as and when u start typing Apr 07 17:25:45 LuciusMare: if it fails to unlock for 2 times, I urgently recommend you use a simple cellphone to unlock Apr 07 17:26:01 venkat: of course Apr 07 17:26:10 anything else would be lame ;) Apr 07 17:26:17 if it works, we all would like to hear of that Apr 07 17:26:27 Shapeshifter, great how much memory do u think u will consume? Apr 07 17:26:46 venkat: very little as the daemon is already installed and running on any n900. Apr 07 17:26:57 I'd just be using it and writing a gui frontend. Apr 07 17:27:36 which daemon ? you are not going to write a daemon that indexes all data? Apr 07 17:28:00 venkat: tracker. no need to write a new one. Apr 07 17:28:29 ya k Apr 07 17:28:56 what is the location where menu icons are kept? Apr 07 17:28:57 i thought u will listen on dbus get info and update urself Apr 07 17:29:09 menu icons for default apps, like conversations for example Apr 07 17:31:04 Shapeshifter: tracker will need a decent config though, plus plugins/conduits/whatyacallit for indexing contacts, SMS, all sorts of documemts, webpages, etc Apr 07 17:32:00 freoffice: Depends: kofficemaemo but it is not going to be installed Apr 07 17:32:00 Depends: libqt4-core (>= 4.6.2~git20100224) but 4.5.3~git20090723-0maemo6+0m5 is to be installed Apr 07 17:32:11 where do i get newer one? Apr 07 17:32:13 DocScrutinizer: yeah I thought of that. luckily, some of the plugins already exist (e.g. IM or email) Apr 07 17:32:35 Shapeshifter, 46 now :D + some invalid Apr 07 17:32:49 VDVsx: tough times. Apr 07 17:33:12 well for students at least ;) Apr 07 17:34:22 good morning, i just went into the download page of MeeGo and saw that images are available now. i just want to make sure that if anything go wrong, would maemo-flasher just reload maemo kernel for me on my n900 like nothng happened? Apr 07 17:34:45 biston, you do know that the meego image is just CLI right? Apr 07 17:34:49 there's no GUI? Apr 07 17:34:57 yes i do Apr 07 17:35:01 oh, okay Apr 07 17:35:02 i read that Apr 07 17:35:14 then flash away Apr 07 17:35:21 there's a wiki page iirc on how to do it Apr 07 17:35:30 im already there, though i don't need it Apr 07 17:36:07 Shapeshifter: for the incremental search: I think that's quite hard to implement, as you usually won't get a single hit and then jump to the next one. Rather you want a list representing all hits with details about context, type of source etc. Such a list is virually impossible to update on-the-fly with incremental search, and for sure you (user) don't want to check the whole llst each time you type one additional char Apr 07 17:37:53 DocScrutinizer: depends. Awesomebar does not too bad a job of it. Apr 07 17:38:45 so how do i upgrade qt to 4.6.2? Apr 07 17:39:54 anyway. my laptop starts to smell hot... cya Apr 07 17:39:54 DocScrutinizer: well for once I'd limit the incremental search to 5 or more digits, so that the volume of possible matches from tracker is much smaller. And the results would need to be ranked by relevance. Apr 07 17:42:25 hi all Apr 07 17:42:37 anybody knows where to get the code for restoring an N97 Mini to factory settings? Apr 07 17:42:46 (I am trying to do so from the phone mgmt. menu) Apr 07 17:43:00 How odd the phone has this code from factory and I was never told about. Apr 07 17:43:27 sivang, i think u need to press some combination of 4 keys Apr 07 17:43:35 google it Apr 07 17:43:53 venkat: there's all sorts of odd side effects when you do this. Apr 07 17:44:09 venkat: not sure this is what I want. I don't want stuff to get erased just the setting to go back to factory Apr 07 17:44:18 yesyes, but if I imagine how I type 'bq24150' I hardly can see any use in a incremental search with instant presentation of the results. Maybe show me number of hits, ok. But even with full searchkey I quite usually get more than 1 even more than some 5 hits. So I'd want to type the whole searchkey without massive CPU usage possibly blocking my input, then I want to check the results and select the one I was looking for Apr 07 17:44:25 Shapeshifter: ^^^ Apr 07 17:44:45 sivang, do u need a soft reset or hard reset? Apr 07 17:44:53 venkat: soft as far as I know Apr 07 17:45:10 venkat: I have a program that fails to use the Data connection for some odd reason, and when I just got the phone it worked. Apr 07 17:45:17 DocScrutinizer, depends on the starting point, if you are on a list of all recipes and you search for "ca" i would expect to see the cakes etc filtered down Apr 07 17:45:36 venkat: soft reset is that the menu offers no? Apr 07 17:45:40 but if you are starting from blankness you can waitfor the user to press return etc - tho the ux for that is misleading at times Apr 07 17:45:53 i remember seeing in some menus Apr 07 17:45:53 4 key combination is hard reset Apr 07 17:45:53 it will also not delete your stuff Apr 07 17:46:03 lcuk: that's not the way a desktop indexer works, though Apr 07 17:46:05 sivang, s Apr 07 17:46:07 and then I could st the lock code? Apr 07 17:46:11 sivang, go to a symbian forum or google Apr 07 17:46:13 This is so confusing. Apr 07 17:46:20 I wonder if there's something in the manual for that. Apr 07 17:46:30 DocScrutinizer, depends, theres many variations on search :) Apr 07 17:46:39 have you seen how i do it? Apr 07 17:47:08 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1CtynM36kxY Apr 07 17:47:19 lcuk: right, so there's are those impossible key combinations. Apr 07 17:48:59 lcuk: with a system global search there's no such thing like a startpoint Apr 07 17:49:42 sure there is Apr 07 17:49:58 awesome bar - find as you type - starts from everything but has no ui showing Apr 07 17:50:11 or showing a list of emails in thunderbird, searching waits until you press enter Apr 07 17:51:01 wiating for enter ux though is bad - because you engage the possibility of having a search term at the top thats not related to the items in the list below Apr 07 17:51:03 wtf has showing mails in a mailer prog to do with a system global search like spotlight? Apr 07 17:51:32 different search strategies that are used Apr 07 17:55:32 hi Apr 07 17:58:52 okay, this may sound like an uber stupid question, but how do i activate the autocomplete? Apr 07 17:59:13 i see it autocompleting, but what button is the "use the autocompleted word" button? Apr 07 18:01:45 tripzero: right arrow? Apr 07 18:01:50 w00t_, finally! got it working with - aa = str(aa) + str((int(words)/1000)) + "MHz, " Apr 07 18:01:52 Shapeshifter: indexer is kinda your private little googlebot. desktop search is similar to http://google.com. Is there any incremental search on google.com? guess why! Apr 07 18:02:17 had to declare ints/str's quite specifically :P Apr 07 18:02:52 facebrick packaged and seemingly working thanks to some help from MohammadAG \o/ Apr 07 18:03:04 np :) Apr 07 18:03:17 w00t_, facebrick? :D Apr 07 18:03:17 you figured out most of the problems though :) Apr 07 18:03:27 lcuk: that's what I decided to call it yes :D Apr 07 18:03:30 hey w00t_ Apr 07 18:03:34 moo---: hi Apr 07 18:03:37 excellent naming choice :) Apr 07 18:03:44 frosty`, there's a right arrow in the osk? Apr 07 18:03:57 MohammadAG: you know how we get this into extras-devel? Apr 07 18:04:36 * lcuk waves @ marmoute Apr 07 18:04:41 marcoil too Apr 07 18:04:56 initiate autocomplete in the osk anyone? Apr 07 18:04:58 marcoil: \o Apr 07 18:05:04 (burchr here) Apr 07 18:05:06 * VDVsx waves at lcuk :P Apr 07 18:05:14 * lcuk throws a pie @ VDVsx Apr 07 18:05:23 still eating in my kebab shop? Apr 07 18:05:28 w00t_, yep Apr 07 18:05:32 lcuk, eheheh Apr 07 18:05:37 w00t_, free right? Apr 07 18:05:42 lcuk, went there today with mikhas :D Apr 07 18:05:48 haha cool Apr 07 18:05:49 okay, so the lock code was 12345 Apr 07 18:05:50 MohammadAG: yes Apr 07 18:05:51 interesting. Apr 07 18:05:54 * noobmonk3y blinks Apr 07 18:06:02 Now, is there a way to uninstall an S60 app that has gone bad? Apr 07 18:06:05 VDVsx, :) will have a bite with you next time im over Apr 07 18:06:07 lcuk, the pizza is good there Apr 07 18:06:11 * lcuk nods Apr 07 18:06:15 what could make it not find/use the 3G data connection ? Apr 07 18:06:29 w00t_, a simple build without the -b should produce the files extras-assistant needs Apr 07 18:06:56 MohammadAG: interesting Apr 07 18:07:08 .changes, .dsc, and .tar.gz Apr 07 18:07:14 the autobuilder will then build it Apr 07 18:07:53 yup, lcuk - good place Apr 07 18:08:14 * MohammadAG hates how cloaking isn't allowed/possible here Apr 07 18:08:21 * noobmonk3y thinks either tinterweb is falling over or my connection is :| Apr 07 18:08:22 here = freenode btw Apr 07 18:08:25 MohammadAG, ? Apr 07 18:08:34 most have cloaks Apr 07 18:08:39 MohammadAG, thought that a few peeps here had cloaks? Apr 07 18:08:39 lcuk, visible IP instead of a hostname Apr 07 18:08:50 lcuk, not by default though right? Apr 07 18:08:50 check mine Apr 07 18:08:54 * VDVsx still has a council cloak :P Apr 07 18:08:56 no, you request it Apr 07 18:09:03 you have to be an upstanding member of the community Apr 07 18:09:04 /hs request? Apr 07 18:09:09 so thats why you havent got one Apr 07 18:09:18 I'm not an upstanding member? Apr 07 18:09:21 you can also donate to freenode and they'll give one Apr 07 18:09:30 15$ iirc Apr 07 18:09:38 * noobmonk3y requests that lcuk gets noobmonk3y a beer...... Apr 07 18:09:43 lol Apr 07 18:09:53 you can get unaffiliated for free im pretty sure Apr 07 18:10:01 * lcuk acks the request and produces white elephant joke Apr 07 18:10:18 VDVsx, who does cloaks, is it GAN900 Apr 07 18:10:28 * frals laughs at noobmonk3y, ive already had 3 beers today mouhaha Apr 07 18:10:28 X-Fade Apr 07 18:10:28 * noobmonk3y whinges Apr 07 18:10:29 lcuk, X-Fade Apr 07 18:10:37 erm i thought X-Fade did Apr 07 18:10:41 there you go then MohammadAG Apr 07 18:10:45 thanks Apr 07 18:10:54 there is a post on tmo about it somewhere Apr 07 18:11:01 MohammadAG: join #freenode, ask for unaffiliated cloak Apr 07 18:11:08 * noobmonk3y steals frals beers Apr 07 18:11:15 long gone... :D Apr 07 18:11:16 "If you're thinking about getting a generic cloak, though, please consider instead making a donation to Peer-Directed Projects Center." Apr 07 18:11:17 lcuk, Maemo Contributor cloak is 500 karma. Apr 07 18:11:18 DocScrutinizer-8, will do in a while Apr 07 18:11:20 * lcuk steals noobmonk3y's chair whilst hes stealing beers Apr 07 18:11:20 lol Apr 07 18:11:36 GeneralAntilles, lol i thought i was joking Apr 07 18:11:47 * noobmonk3y does have 3 beers in the fridge just one more h/c version to upload b4 i can be arsed to get up n get one Apr 07 18:11:48 i didnt realise it was a serious requirement Apr 07 18:11:50 :D Apr 07 18:11:52 lcuk, - lying on a bed Apr 07 18:12:15 after you wore yourself out losing at football? Apr 07 18:13:37 bbl Apr 07 18:13:37 :( Apr 07 18:14:36 kk Apr 07 18:20:24 237 out of 238 hunks FAILED. ah.. Apr 07 18:23:24 how long tame the n900 to do a full recharge ? Apr 07 18:23:31 ( battery recharge ) Apr 07 18:23:57 2hrs ish Apr 07 18:24:03 maybe 3 does depend on the charger tho Apr 07 18:24:03 4h here Apr 07 18:24:16 but that's because I don't let it idle while charging Apr 07 18:24:19 http://i41.tinypic.com/103gbjm.png | http://i42.tinypic.com/1ekx1u.png | http://i40.tinypic.com/16gixlk.png <- anyone got opinions on which is nicer? :) Apr 07 18:26:07 w00t_: first one Apr 07 18:27:01 bear in mind that will be used in app listing, so shadow might affect it.. I honestly don't know Apr 07 18:27:08 noobmonk3y: take a look :P Apr 07 18:27:10 lcuk: you too! Apr 07 18:27:12 2nd or third Apr 07 18:27:20 2nd i say Apr 07 18:28:52 MohammadAG: one vote for each, I say you decide :P Apr 07 18:29:02 "f" is wrong :p Apr 07 18:29:19 * MohammadAG asks again Apr 07 18:29:26 or is that your personal rating :p Apr 07 18:29:26 which one is good for the maemo launcher Apr 07 18:31:29 w00t_: no idea which Apr 07 18:31:50 with a light theme, I guess the shadow will show Apr 07 18:31:52 ok, that's an important distinction i should have made Apr 07 18:31:53 :) Apr 07 18:37:45 some of the icons in app reader have shadows too, like file browser, pdf reader, rrs reader Apr 07 18:38:11 and at least imo, they look better than the flat ones :p Apr 07 18:39:18 * VDVsx happily notices that the meego forum is still sane :) Apr 07 18:39:22 DocScrutinizer-8: well, yes there is incremental search on google.com Apr 07 18:40:19 * RST38h happily yawns and swallows a live mouse Apr 07 18:40:27 VDVsx: Meego has got a forum? Apr 07 18:40:39 RST38h, yes :D Apr 07 18:40:57 so which icon should w00t_ use? Apr 07 18:41:12 VDVsx: URL? =) Apr 07 18:41:35 RST38h, http://forum.meego.com/ Apr 07 18:41:44 ah so obvious Apr 07 18:41:44 sso from meego.com :D Apr 07 18:42:41 VDVsx: I guess, there are no Meego devices yet, so lemmings stay away Apr 07 18:42:41 w00t_, I like the second one more, since it should fit in all themes Apr 07 18:42:52 actually, they all have minor changes, so they can be changed later Apr 07 18:43:49 Hooboy, another TSG meeting. Apr 07 18:44:03 MohammadAG: go for it Apr 07 18:44:04 * GeneralAntilles gets crackers and hummus. Apr 07 18:44:10 General: Will they...like...decide something? Apr 07 18:44:23 RST38h, no idea, I haven't even looked at the agenda. Apr 07 18:46:06 RST38h, http://wiki.meego.com/Technical_Steering_Group_meetings#Next_TSG_meeting Apr 07 18:46:19 RST38h, looks like a good one to just catch the minutes of. . . . Apr 07 18:47:35 Shapeshifter: obviously your definition of incremental search is absolutely different to mine Apr 07 18:47:45 Oh well. Apr 07 18:47:54 will meego still be dpkg based and .deb Apr 07 18:47:54 Shapeshifter, what google has as incremental is just suggestions Apr 07 18:48:09 it will be nice if u cud give out results Apr 07 18:48:10 * ghostcube_maemo prays Apr 07 18:48:25 something like gnome-do Apr 07 18:48:40 * javispedro posts TMO thread: N920 unveiled! more information in forums.meego.com Apr 07 18:49:53 ghostcube_maemo: no. intel devs hate debian, dpkg and .deb Apr 07 18:51:30 Shapeshifter: the only thing on http://google.com I can find that maybe might resemble faintly to an incremental search, is the word completion dropdown in searchkey textbox. This isn't any real search at all though Apr 07 18:51:42 oh Apr 07 18:51:55 i hate rpm Apr 07 18:52:37 I don't hate rpm, but deb is so much better! Apr 07 18:53:00 Shapeshifter: as it doesn't show any (dereferentiation) *results*, it only helps to find completions for the search *key* Apr 07 18:53:27 yeah deb just works Apr 07 18:53:29 ptl_demands_PR12: rpm deltas in the new rpm version is cool Apr 07 18:53:44 but i feel that installing program rpm is more slow Apr 07 18:53:51 that other packages Apr 07 18:54:11 E0x: I'd prefer rpm if that rollback feature they implemented once was not reversed. Apr 07 18:54:33 ptl_demands_PR12: deb don't have rollback Apr 07 18:54:36 so Apr 07 18:54:36 E0x: but they took it off... That feature alone would make rpm be superior to deb. Apr 07 18:54:42 i run deb now for 13years Apr 07 18:54:42 yes Apr 07 18:54:50 E0x: rollback? wtf? Apr 07 18:54:51 neither deb nor rpm have rollback currently. Apr 07 18:54:52 the delta feature are nice Apr 07 18:55:01 rpm has had this feature once, and it was reversed. Apr 07 18:55:16 deb also has deltas, isn't it? udeb Apr 07 18:55:31 some solaris distro that are like debian but with solaris kernel Apr 07 18:55:39 do a some rollback technique Apr 07 18:55:41 using zfs Apr 07 18:55:43 ... Apr 07 18:55:49 can we avoid rescanning entire database? Apr 07 18:56:09 ptl_demands_PR12: a least in debian i don't remember saw the delta Apr 07 18:56:16 you need download the fullpackages Apr 07 18:56:30 E0x: it's not used Apr 07 18:56:57 any date for 1.2 so far? Apr 07 18:57:02 is it ok to talk here about summer-of-code? Apr 07 18:57:18 shvedsky: why wouldn't it be? Apr 07 18:57:30 ghostcube_maemo: LOL Apr 07 18:57:32 * luke-jr ponders an OS that, if it fails to boot, branches the disk state and boots the last working one with the new one mounted Apr 07 18:58:11 luke-jr: windows "do" that Apr 07 18:58:21 ptl_demands_PR12: maybe there's a separate channel for that, like in other places Apr 07 18:58:24 * ptl_demands_PR12 ponders an OS that, when a library is updated, dynamically relinks all the programs in memory that use it if the newer version has the same binary interface Apr 07 18:59:00 I'd like to ask if the idea of cloning Locality from Android is still alive and has chances to be mentored Apr 07 18:59:08 ptl_demands_PR12: that's asking for problems Apr 07 18:59:16 consistent ABI != consistent internal state Apr 07 18:59:21 DocScrutinizer-8: I see. Apr 07 19:00:22 would be nice if a SCM tracked compatibility... internal state, ABI, and API Apr 07 19:00:49 or perhaps just an app to analyze two source trees and make such a judgement Apr 07 19:01:47 thp? epage? are you here? Apr 07 19:01:48 hey all. on the N900 where rootfs is roughly 230MB, is only 13MB of free space a problem? Apr 07 19:02:10 hmmmm if i where to try and use cairo in pyqt - anyidea what i need to "import" at the beginning? jusy import pycairo ? Apr 07 19:03:03 PhonicUK, not nescessarily - but for instance, just enabling extras devel on that would eat up your 13mb in one go Apr 07 19:03:15 i try to stick above 25mb for safety :D Apr 07 19:03:32 ive already got extras devel on :) Apr 07 19:03:42 :D was just an example Apr 07 19:04:00 if something else suddenly swallowed 18mb.... it wouldnt be a happy bunny Apr 07 19:04:01 trying to figure out what i can move/remove to sort it out a bit Apr 07 19:04:07 just disable repos Apr 07 19:04:12 use only when you need too ;) Apr 07 19:04:25 oh ok :) Apr 07 19:04:33 use the wkiki, it has some useful things to help you out :) Apr 07 19:04:39 wiki Apr 07 19:04:46 ie, python-optify Apr 07 19:05:10 so disabling them without deleting them removes the repo index? Apr 07 19:05:24 http://wiki.maemo.org/Free_up_rootfs_space Apr 07 19:05:27 yup Apr 07 19:05:34 awesome Apr 07 19:05:38 :D Apr 07 19:05:40 (another GSoC question) is it ok to apply if I never developed on maemo or any other mobile platform? Apr 07 19:05:44 ill disable sdk as well then Apr 07 19:05:58 shvedsky, i asked that and got told it was fine, as long as you are willing ;) Apr 07 19:06:02 lol PhonicUK Apr 07 19:06:10 ie, willing to learn shvedsky Apr 07 19:06:26 xchat on the bus = awesome Apr 07 19:06:39 PhonicUK, yup!!!! Apr 07 19:06:43 :D works really well! Apr 07 19:07:00 i'm currently on holiday, and the n900 is my wifi hotspot :D Apr 07 19:07:12 (and radiator lol!) Apr 07 19:07:15 noobmonk3y: okay, thanks. Apr 07 19:07:30 yeah, maemo is a nice radiator, much nicer than my previous pda Apr 07 19:07:35 n900* Apr 07 19:08:09 so, I hope that this soc will give me a unique chance to develop on radiators. :-) Apr 07 19:08:24 :D :D Apr 07 19:08:30 i love maemo Apr 07 19:08:38 maemo doesn't love me, she two timed me Apr 07 19:08:54 esp since i came from the world of symbian on my n97 Apr 07 19:08:54 ran of with MohammadAG and got over clocked Apr 07 19:08:58 lol Apr 07 19:09:05 ahhhhhhh - i never really was a phone person Apr 07 19:09:12 loved computers, but phones never held my interest Apr 07 19:09:17 way too small Apr 07 19:09:20 lol Apr 07 19:09:25 i love my phone Apr 07 19:09:28 i think the n900 just about converted me :P Apr 07 19:09:33 missing spotify tho Apr 07 19:09:36 meh my e71 is looking lonely on the floor Apr 07 19:09:37 noobmonk3y, you overclocked? Apr 07 19:09:47 MohammadAG, nooooooooo, my balls arn't as big as yours ;) Apr 07 19:09:56 brb bus stop soon Apr 07 19:09:59 LOL Apr 07 19:10:01 lol Apr 07 19:10:06 and your n900 cant control the bus? darn Apr 07 19:10:19 roffle Apr 07 19:10:20 he doesn't have the daemon to do it Apr 07 19:10:32 stood up waiting to stop Apr 07 19:10:54 darn traffic lights Apr 07 19:12:01 hmm still only 14mb after turning off sdk and extras Apr 07 19:12:31 find / -mount -size +100k -ctime -40 Apr 07 19:12:32 oh Apr 07 19:12:33 nvm Apr 07 19:12:37 stupid busybox Apr 07 19:12:48 lol Apr 07 19:12:52 /usr/gnu/bin/find then Apr 07 19:12:53 ptl_demands_PR12: PR1.2 OUT? Apr 07 19:13:06 Scelt: of course not, otherwise I wouldn't be using this nickname :) Apr 07 19:13:17 ptl_demands_PR12: just checking Apr 07 19:13:49 sorry, it's not /usr/gnu/bin/find, it's /usr/bin/gnu/find Apr 07 19:14:00 isn't there a bot that can be asked about maemo updates? Apr 07 19:14:46 let's make a riot so that nokia releases PR1.2 and we'll all be happy Apr 07 19:14:48 aah home :) Apr 07 19:14:53 lol Apr 07 19:15:07 i want adobe to release flash 10.1 Apr 07 19:15:25 so i can watch iplayer Apr 07 19:15:38 4od works perfectly though Apr 07 19:15:58 especially in full screen Apr 07 19:16:42 ptl_demands_PR12, i can't see your point Apr 07 19:17:42 ptl_demands_PR12, it's kind of an insane demand, I hope you understand that too Apr 07 19:17:45 Surfa: repositories not lacking libhildon1 anymore, being able to see the same packages as in scratchbox, being able to properly use QT 4.6.2, having usability bugs fixed, etc. Apr 07 19:18:12 and? Apr 07 19:18:16 insane? I think it's more insane to keep delaying the update... Apr 07 19:18:18 and? Apr 07 19:18:24 it is as I said Apr 07 19:18:25 you definitely want something that is not ready for release? Apr 07 19:18:30 Nokia has a bugtracker Apr 07 19:18:35 many bugs are marked as FIXED. Apr 07 19:18:44 ..many bugs.. right Apr 07 19:18:47 They must be released, it they are fixed. Apr 07 19:18:59 this is the open source way. Release early, release often. Apr 07 19:19:08 ptl_demands_pr12, obviosuly they are just keeping a completely tested and otherwise ready version just to make hordes unhappy Apr 07 19:19:11 release crap Apr 07 19:19:47 Come on, this testing excuse is more lame each day. Apr 07 19:19:49 but yeah, I wouldn't mind if the upgraded packages were available as they come. infact I'm sure many people would be happy to be 'beta testers' in this fashion. Apr 07 19:19:52 i can't see how global company could release untested and unreliable stuff too early Apr 07 19:20:02 You can't keep testing forever, the packages work in scratchbox and such. Apr 07 19:20:04 Surfa: ask microsoft. Apr 07 19:20:11 Someone could tolerate a small delay, but it's respect to their customers. Apr 07 19:20:20 And everybody knew very early about PR1.2 Apr 07 19:20:26 SpeedEvil, and microsoft is related to pr1.2 how? Apr 07 19:20:31 Yes, there is an expectancy that must be fulfilled. Apr 07 19:20:44 It's part of the vendor-customer relationship. Apr 07 19:21:04 ptl_demands_PR12, and what a cry would it cause if there were severe additional bugs released Apr 07 19:21:17 good lord Apr 07 19:21:27 now it's just geeks that are unhappy, then it would be everyone Apr 07 19:21:32 who decided to use stackable windows in xchat? Apr 07 19:22:05 (08:19:52 PM) Surfa: i can't see how global company could release untested and unreliable stuff too early Apr 07 19:22:07 that's vendor-customer relationship Apr 07 19:22:16 javispedro: for what? Apr 07 19:22:18 and it's completely measurable with money Apr 07 19:22:33 Surfa: then you're not paying attention to the several forums with non-geeks asking for that Apr 07 19:22:34 speedevil, for everything Apr 07 19:22:51 SpeedEvil, and if you didn't notice we were talking about nokia and maemo right now Apr 07 19:22:52 breaks "each channel in its own window" scenario Apr 07 19:23:10 javispedro: what do you mean by stackable windows? Apr 07 19:23:17 ptl_demands_PR12, who cares if people who don't have any idea of the maturity of a release are demanding it? Apr 07 19:23:26 any particular reason why there is no UAE in maemo repos? Apr 07 19:23:38 it's better that company decides when it's ready to go Apr 07 19:23:43 * noobmonk3y_ prods noobmonk3y Apr 07 19:23:43 Surfa: if the people are their customers, yes, Nokia should care. Apr 07 19:23:47 Surfa: now you demand geekiness from non-geeks? Apr 07 19:24:02 speedevil, its that hildon feature where one window stacks over another one instead of having two windows Apr 07 19:24:09 think modest's message view Apr 07 19:24:15 javispedro: ah. Apr 07 19:24:19 ptl_demands_PR12, what are you talking about? Apr 07 19:24:20 javispedro: never used modest Apr 07 19:24:29 MohammadAG, !!!! wohoooooooooo Apr 07 19:24:34 javispedro: that's not for the main conversation windows thogh Apr 07 19:24:35 javispedro: where is that happening in xchat? Apr 07 19:25:00 microlith, speedevil: disable tabs in xchat and you'll see Apr 07 19:25:10 shvedsky: what's up? Apr 07 19:25:15 ptl_demands_PR12, luckily you're not the one to decide when nokia releases something, your attitude is just certain death for business of any kind Apr 07 19:25:22 * noobmonk3y_ lols Apr 07 19:25:24 Surfa: first you say the public is geeks only, like being geek disqualifies asking something. Now you do the opposite, since I said there are non-geeks demanding it also, you shift to the 'immature' adjective. It doesn't matter if they are geek, mature or immature, and so on: they are customers. Apr 07 19:25:34 (have to restart to see effect, and of course, be in more than one channel) Apr 07 19:25:35 yeah right :) Apr 07 19:25:43 Surfa: I think the opposite. Apr 07 19:25:57 thp, never really did thank you for all your help last month, when i started trying to code :D :D - so thankee :D Apr 07 19:25:59 ptl_demands_pr12, so in your opinion nokia bottom line would be better if they released early rather than later? Apr 07 19:26:03 javispedro: oh, no way. agreed that is suboptimal though. Apr 07 19:26:11 Surfa: Nokia is really shooting its foot, by not proving itself a trustful company, by delaying something that shouldn't take so long. Apr 07 19:26:11 ptl_demands_PR12, that makes me wonder how qualified you are within this area Apr 07 19:26:31 ptl_demands_PR12: you have no knowing how long it should take Apr 07 19:26:33 if it's not finished and ready to go, how on earth do you think it can be released? Apr 07 19:26:36 noobmonk3y_: no problem :) Apr 07 19:26:44 know way of knowing* Apr 07 19:26:47 @#$# Apr 07 19:26:51 :D - version 1.0.0-0 gone to extras devel, and into testing soon :D Apr 07 19:26:53 cannot type today Apr 07 19:27:00 * noobmonk3y_ can't type normally! Apr 07 19:27:12 flux: they released PR1.2 for scratchbox. They marked bugs as fixed. And it's taking too long to show the same codes to the production release. What I say is that they are taking much, much longer than they should to get this 'tested.' Apr 07 19:27:21 ptl_demands_PR12, something is not ready simply by you saying that it is Apr 07 19:27:28 1 Apr 07 19:27:33 or that you think it's taking too long Apr 07 19:27:35 * noobmonk3y_ agrees Apr 07 19:27:42 that's not a measure for software maturity Apr 07 19:27:45 Stskeeps, moved... might have even been a blink Apr 07 19:27:46 ptl_demands_pr12, so your view is that they have a finished product and they refuse to release it. I'm thinking maybe nokia doesn't share your view. Apr 07 19:27:48 javispedro: why would I want to disable tabs? Apr 07 19:28:00 javispedro: but K. Never hit that, as I don't Apr 07 19:28:00 can't someone just shut the fcuk up about PR 1.2? I am getting insane if people keep talking about it coming, not coming, testing here, testing there....... Apr 07 19:28:07 Just my 0.02 cents though... Apr 07 19:28:09 flux: if PR1.2 is not released one year from now, would your argument change? Apr 07 19:28:10 lol Apr 07 19:28:20 flux: you're not taking into consideration the time, like it's negligible. Apr 07 19:28:28 ptl_demands_PR12, subjective views from people lacking sufficient knowledge can't be regarded as a sign for mature enough software Apr 07 19:28:34 I have xchat setup as http://www.flickr.com/photos/14560445@N08/4500259237/ Apr 07 19:28:37 which works for me Apr 07 19:28:42 ptl_demands_pr12, yes it would. a few months is not in my opinion a long time in the software business. Apr 07 19:29:08 speedevil: to see more than one channel in task viewer. i also kind of dislike duplicated features (window management) Apr 07 19:29:17 ah Apr 07 19:29:26 what showstopper bugs are theere that require the release of pr1.2? Apr 07 19:29:32 hey all I created a small python qt gui for the n900 (for entering numbers to block) but how do I get it to use the style of the theme? or should I stick with GTK+? Apr 07 19:29:46 * sejo waves to fellow belgian pvanhoof_ Apr 07 19:29:48 Surfa: there are many more people demanding this, you can't simple assume they lack sufficiente knowledge by face value. I've been in software development and I have took part of the testing stage, and, although it was a different business, I have notion about that. Apr 07 19:29:53 ~ping Apr 07 19:29:54 ~pong Apr 07 19:29:56 javispedro: yeah. The task viewer blows IMO. I mean sure it's whizzy, and shizzle. But it fails on the fundamental task of being able to bounce between tasks rapidly. Apr 07 19:29:57 * pvanhoof_ waves back Apr 07 19:30:20 ptl_demands_PR12, none of people demanding that know certainly nothing about the pr1.2 maturity Apr 07 19:30:30 that's a fact that nothing you say will change :) Apr 07 19:30:46 Surfa: yeah, like you have read all their takes on this subject. Apr 07 19:30:50 nokia engineers are only people who know the current situation and they aren't demanding anything Apr 07 19:30:52 come on guys... still PR 1.2 coming or not coming bullshit? Apr 07 19:30:55 It will come when it comes Apr 07 19:31:09 I have learned to accept this with PR 1.2 Apr 07 19:31:19 they already have latest sw if they want to Apr 07 19:31:46 ptl_demands_PR12, whatever people outside nokia write don't change the things that they KNOW Apr 07 19:31:56 it's all about what they think they know Apr 07 19:32:04 it changes the customer trust to Nokia. Apr 07 19:32:46 that attitude of yours doesn't make any money for companies.. releasing crap is only harming company reputation, even more than delays Apr 07 19:33:00 wheter you like it or not Apr 07 19:33:15 Well, maybe I should stop complaining in name of all the people in the forums with which I talk and just switch to the competitor. Apr 07 19:33:29 It'd be better, I'd not be called a troll and wouldn't stress myself. Apr 07 19:33:35 you just don't get it Apr 07 19:33:41 * noobmonk3y_ thinks ptl_demands_PR12 needs a beer :P Apr 07 19:33:54 I prefer the GNU/Linux architecture that maemo/meego uses but I am getting really tired of this. Apr 07 19:33:58 * lcuk does too Apr 07 19:34:07 how difficult it is to understand that nokia can't release something that isn't mature enough? Apr 07 19:34:07 ptl_demands_PR12: arguing in here or on TMO accomplishes nothing. no one in here can help your cause. Apr 07 19:34:10 (beer) Apr 07 19:34:17 re Apr 07 19:34:20 hey jaffa Apr 07 19:34:22 (beers >= Beer) Apr 07 19:34:26 microlith, jaffa just turned up Apr 07 19:34:27 microlith: maybe, maybe not. There are nokia people here... Apr 07 19:34:33 Is it possible to put symbolic links or fifos in the MyDocs directory Apr 07 19:34:39 ptl_demands_PR12: you could always go to the competitor, and never know if you'll ever get an update Apr 07 19:34:43 * SpeedEvil is awaiting delivery of his Jaffa Cakes. Apr 07 19:34:48 dotblank: not while it's a fat32 file system Apr 07 19:34:48 he is elected member of your council Apr 07 19:34:51 "who cares if phone calls don't work or sms doesn't arrive, but ptl got his new pr1.2 *hooray*" Apr 07 19:34:53 whos council? Apr 07 19:34:56 dotblank: afaik fat doesn't support those. just try. Apr 07 19:34:59 is he a tory? ;) Apr 07 19:35:02 ^ yours ^ Apr 07 19:35:11 Surfa: that wouldn't be bugfixes at all Apr 07 19:35:13 tory cakes .... from now on....... Apr 07 19:35:13 dotblank: no Apr 07 19:35:17 dotblank: it isn't Apr 07 19:35:24 dotblank: for my music I worked around it Apr 07 19:35:28 * Arkenoi wants pr1.2 because abbra promised me that keyboard layout bug which prevents me from having different "blue" keys for different input languages will be fixed there Apr 07 19:35:31 actually i see jaffa as more of a green party man ;) Apr 07 19:35:38 dotblank: I have /home/user/data as a 28G ext3 fs Apr 07 19:35:39 Shapeshifter, I already did.. I thought it was because of the fat32 restriction... Apr 07 19:35:40 Surfa: you're exaggerating... As I said, PR1.2 has been released -- in scratchbox. Apr 07 19:35:50 SpeedEvil, oh I could just mount a folder Apr 07 19:35:51 dotblank: I told tracker to also index /home/user/data/sounds/ Apr 07 19:35:52 ptl_demands_PR12, how much experience do you have on sw development? Apr 07 19:36:07 bug fixes tend to have effects on working functionality too Apr 07 19:36:10 Surfa: about 5 years coding in C and C++ Apr 07 19:36:21 well the problem is that some of the menus ofor fuile selection wont give you acces to root Apr 07 19:36:24 and still you don't see my point? good god.. Apr 07 19:36:34 well, how do i install qt 4.6.2 now? Apr 07 19:36:39 lcuk, healthcheck 1.0.0-0 in extras devel :D Apr 07 19:36:42 Arkenoi, ahha, that's good, I hope that guy is the dev working on that :p Apr 07 19:36:47 evening all Apr 07 19:36:47 # List of directory roots to index and watch (separator=;) Apr 07 19:36:47 WatchDirectoryRoots=$HOME/data/sounds/;$HOME/MyDocs/.documents/;$HOME/MyDocs/.videos/;$HOME/MyDocs/.images/;$HOME/MyDocs/.camera/; Apr 07 19:36:54 hey nidO Apr 07 19:36:55 btw, i never tried, is sip as well integrated in the phone app as skype? Apr 07 19:37:09 noobmonk3y_: Capitalism FTW. Actually, after the Digital Economy Bill mess, I'm pissed off with the lot of them. Apr 07 19:37:18 awwwwwwww Apr 07 19:37:18 VDVsx: hows the radison seaside hotel in hel? youve stayed there yeah? Apr 07 19:37:29 Jaffa: It's OK. Just get a VPN to russia. Apr 07 19:37:30 VDVsx: Oh, btw, thoughts from Testing Squad on multiple QA repos welcome Apr 07 19:37:34 :/ Apr 07 19:37:35 Jaffa, maemo party ftw? determined to ensure nokia deliver PR 1.2 on time? whenever that may be lol Apr 07 19:37:39 ;) Apr 07 19:37:59 frals, is good, I'm here now ;) Apr 07 19:38:00 noobmonk3y_: Some of the ideas from the Maemo community are more weird than the Greens' ;-) Apr 07 19:38:06 VDVsx: cool :) Apr 07 19:38:09 lol very good point! Apr 07 19:38:14 im coming over err Apr 07 19:38:16 SpeedEvil, does that make it possible for me to select files not on the fat32 partition? Apr 07 19:38:16 ooo frals going on another jolly? ;) Apr 07 19:38:39 SpeedEvil, Is there a way to set the file selection dialog to show root Apr 07 19:38:39 VDVsx: landing in hel the 25th and leaving on the 27th Apr 07 19:38:43 dotblank: no - it means that tehy show up in programs that use the tracker - so all audio there pops up in music player Apr 07 19:38:43 fancy a meet up? ;) Apr 07 19:38:49 cehteh: yes Apr 07 19:38:52 dotblank: no idea. Apr 07 19:38:55 hmm Apr 07 19:38:57 sip and skype integrated in the same way Apr 07 19:38:57 dotblank: why do you want it to Apr 07 19:39:04 thanks Apr 07 19:39:09 you tap on the 'cellular' item in the dialer and select sip instead of skype Apr 07 19:39:14 SpeedEvil, What I was going to try is make a random SMS alert Apr 07 19:39:20 * cehteh should setup a sip proxy Apr 07 19:39:21 or you get another box in the contact that lets you dial the number w/ sip Apr 07 19:39:26 so I wanted to make a fifo that the program can use as its sound file Apr 07 19:39:31 note that if you have multiple sip gateways configured, things aren't as friendly Apr 07 19:39:39 but well… it's assumed you won't do that Apr 07 19:39:39 frals, good good, I'll be living next to that hotel, so poke me :) Apr 07 19:39:40 Shakawkaw kaw kaw kaka kaw, shakaka kaw kaw Apr 07 19:39:51 timeless: well i cant find how to ad-hoc call someone over sip without a contact Apr 07 19:39:53 Then make a while loop cat the random sound clip to the fifo in the background Apr 07 19:39:58 (afaiu we don't support multiple concurrent skype accounts) Apr 07 19:40:24 cehteh: from memory you can enter a non phone number into the dialer as long as you've selected sip instead of cellular in the drop down Apr 07 19:40:26 VDVsx, poking in helsinki, sounds like something tigerwoods would say Apr 07 19:40:44 dotblank: i recall a way from the command line to set the various sounds Apr 07 19:40:50 only skype and phone here in the dropdown, no sip Apr 07 19:40:56 dotblank: unfortunately, I've forgotten what it is Apr 07 19:41:07 was Apr 07 19:41:08 cehteh: did you setup your sip account? Apr 07 19:41:15 hmm Apr 07 19:41:20 if you mean sip w/o a sip account Apr 07 19:41:23 yeah, we don't do that Apr 07 19:41:34 timeless: no, but sip should work without, in the most basic way you can call to a ip address directly Apr 07 19:41:37 VDVsx: will do :) Apr 07 19:41:37 well If I can just get a link to the root folder where I can create fifos or symlinks i would be fine Apr 07 19:41:42 ok :) Apr 07 19:41:49 noobmonk3y_, lolol Apr 07 19:41:52 :D Apr 07 19:42:07 cehteh: conceptually that part's just confusing :) Apr 07 19:42:14 I could try mounting a 1mb ext3 FS in a folder on the fat32 right/ Apr 07 19:42:21 i mean, i've had people try to explain it to me before, and clearly i can't remember it :) Apr 07 19:42:25 yeah i just install a sip proxy Apr 07 19:42:26 and make a fifo in it Apr 07 19:42:30 timeless_mbp, btw, still in HEL ? Apr 07 19:42:39 VDVsx: 'still'? Apr 07 19:42:40 dotblank: yes Apr 07 19:42:44 i just got back yesterday Apr 07 19:42:50 cehteh: If you do the above - and setup sounds as I suggested - then you should be able to reach a soundfile on an ext3 partition . then make this a link Apr 07 19:43:06 Jaffa: 1.2 really zapped red pill, right? Apr 07 19:43:10 SpeedEvil: what? Apr 07 19:43:34 timeless_mbp, ah lol, bad wording, we need to meet for beer one of these days :P Apr 07 19:44:26 well, hrm, it's ~11pm Apr 07 19:44:30 * timeless_mbp should go home Apr 07 19:45:06 * noobmonk3y_ still wants a beer Apr 07 19:45:16 and it's very foggy :) Apr 07 19:45:28 it's too dark to see much fog :) Apr 07 19:46:53 timeless_mbp: Dunno, I thought PR1.1 did more of it in Apr 07 19:47:33 mounting /dev/loop0 on /home/user/MyDocs/SC1S/fifo/ failed: Invalid argument Apr 07 19:47:39 hmm why is that... Apr 07 19:48:50 ah forgot the type Apr 07 19:50:16 dotblank: you're trying to use a fat file system as a target for unix operations? Apr 07 19:51:36 not quite Apr 07 19:51:51 I got around it by mounting a 1mb ext3 in the MyDocs directory with a symlink to root Apr 07 19:52:52 evil users are …. evil Apr 07 19:52:56 * SpeedEvil nods. Apr 07 19:53:27 Also - you don';t want a symlink to root Apr 07 19:53:32 but to /home/opt/ or wherever Apr 07 19:55:27 hmm Apr 07 19:55:59 file manager crashes (freezes) when trying to access the folder that contains the mountpoint to the 1mb ext2 Apr 07 19:56:05 how do i get autocomplete to "complete" using the osk? Apr 07 19:56:17 tripzero: tap the displayed word Apr 07 19:56:22 tripzero: on the text Apr 07 19:56:39 On a related matter, can the osk do arrows? Apr 07 19:56:47 that is direciton rrows, not >< Apr 07 19:56:49 direction Apr 07 19:56:51 doesn't look like it Apr 07 19:57:00 w00t, tapping word success! Apr 07 19:57:27 Interesting. UAE compiles on arm but not on x86 Apr 07 19:57:54 do you respond to all the GSoC applications or just select the most suitable one and drop the others? Apr 07 19:58:33 * noobmonk3y_ will bbl - beeeeeeeeeeeeeeeer time Apr 07 20:00:01 I recall info on googles pages on it Apr 07 20:00:04 I forget the process Apr 07 20:00:11 maybe google it. Apr 07 20:00:15 ah I forgot to mount it nosuid Apr 07 20:01:22 X-Fade: ping Apr 07 20:02:24 w00t_: pong Apr 07 20:02:47 HAHAHA it WORKS!! Apr 07 20:03:16 X-Fade: not sure if you're the right person to ping, but just wondering if you got my builder invite request a short while ago.. I got a blank page when submitting it Apr 07 20:03:23 so dunno if I should do it again or not :P Apr 07 20:04:15 * MohammadAG pings w00t_ Apr 07 20:04:21 * w00t_ pongs Apr 07 20:04:32 PM :) Apr 07 20:04:52 * X-Fade clicks on invite for w00t Apr 07 20:04:58 ah, it worked? Apr 07 20:05:47 X-Fade: thanks :) Apr 07 20:05:47 w00t_: To lazy to look at my email :) Apr 07 20:06:02 w00t_: Will let you know tomorrow, but the invite should be in your inbox. Apr 07 20:07:39 X-Fade: thanks anyhow :) Apr 07 20:07:58 np Apr 07 20:13:55 does the sort command in linux not have the option for random? Apr 07 20:15:05 rather for busybox on the n900 Apr 07 20:15:16 randomsort? Apr 07 20:15:59 yea.. Is that a command Apr 07 20:18:04 I wouldn't call random a sort. Apr 07 20:18:14 indeed Apr 07 20:18:54 well I need to randomly sort output from a find command Apr 07 20:21:52 dotblank: use 'shuf' in the shell Apr 07 20:22:00 dotblank: find ... | shuf Apr 07 20:22:21 ptl_demands_PR12, You are awesome Apr 07 20:22:38 lol Apr 07 20:22:57 ptl_demands_PR12: wow, you really are! Apr 07 20:23:00 crap shuf doesn't exist Apr 07 20:23:10 hmm there is a package with that tool i think Apr 07 20:23:12 binutils Apr 07 20:23:16 I believe Apr 07 20:25:12 hmm that command doesn't exist Apr 07 20:26:19 on desktop linux it exists Apr 07 20:28:14 yea Apr 07 20:28:54 * MohammadAG wonders if it's justified to use non-free till PR1.2 is released Apr 07 20:41:44 hi Apr 07 20:41:52 anyone knows the syncml concepts? Apr 07 20:42:11 when an item is deleted from the db , how syncml knows that is a deleted item? Apr 07 20:42:31 becuase the database dont have the item and there isn't any mark that this item was deleted Apr 07 20:46:48 ~ping Apr 07 20:46:49 ~pong Apr 07 20:46:49 uuh: http://wiki.maemo.org/Overclocking Apr 07 20:46:54 * MohammadAG thinks w00t_ is dead Apr 07 20:47:08 (dead as in IRC-dead) Apr 07 20:47:18 no need to clarify Apr 07 20:47:44 :P Apr 07 20:47:55 <_llll_> haha "echo $((`cat /sys/devices/system/cpu/cpu0/cpufreq/scaling_cur_freq`/1000)) MHz Apr 07 20:47:58 <_llll_> " Apr 07 20:47:59 <_llll_> wow, just wow Apr 07 20:48:21 <_llll_> i'd trust whoever wrote that to make sensible recomendations on my hardware Apr 07 20:49:07 ~curse t.m.o Apr 07 20:49:08 May you be reincarnated as a Windows XP administrator, t.m.o ! Apr 07 20:49:25 great feature, someone can send me a PM, but im not allowed to reply to it >_< Apr 07 20:49:46 clearly the sender is too important to be replied to. Apr 07 20:50:01 pray. Apr 07 20:50:01 0-poster :< Apr 07 20:50:13 ah, a noob god. Apr 07 20:58:24 Is there a reason why the libraries and programs on the rootfs do not match their md5sums (e.g. usr/lib/libbz2.so.1.0.5: FAILED)? Apr 07 20:59:04 prelink? Apr 07 20:59:17 (wild guess) Apr 07 20:59:38 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vJpEuMidcSU&feature=player_embedded haha Apr 07 21:00:33 javispedro: Reinstalling the package makes them correct, so why would they prelink them on the firmware image but don't have prelink installed on the device to run after package installation? Apr 07 21:00:49 maybe they are all just hacked binaries Apr 07 21:00:49 juliank: yes, that's what I think has been done indeed. Apr 07 21:01:26 juliank: they don't expect anybody reinstalling packages on the device (save for SSUs), thus having prelink there is a waste of precious rootfs space Apr 07 21:02:40 javispedro: Installing upgrades would cause the same. Apr 07 21:02:56 the prelink effect would be lost then Apr 07 21:03:02 juliank: SSUs. that's known. Apr 07 21:05:51 OK. Apr 07 21:07:27 Arkenoi: sad truth (and this includes n900 promo video, look at the rotation animation). Everyone does it though (Apple was sued here for speeding up and "coolifying" the animations) Apr 07 21:07:40 (in a TV ad) Apr 07 21:08:28 thats why their ads now have "not shown in real-time" or similar plastered along the bottom of them in the uk at least Apr 07 21:08:52 because they show the "click something" then immediately the "something happening" without the "wait 5 seconds" that happens in the middle being shown Apr 07 21:09:07 when will they just show "LIE" near the ads? Apr 07 21:09:35 javispedro: in the case of the N97 the 'coolify' was even bigger Apr 07 21:09:51 ptl_demands_PR12: that's what the video tries to prove Apr 07 21:10:20 the video's on an old firmware though Apr 07 21:10:31 but I don't have an iPhone to compare. Apr 07 21:14:08 the iPhone opens apps real quick Apr 07 21:14:16 but I noticed how it does that Apr 07 21:14:27 readahead? Apr 07 21:14:29 it saves images of applications and open those, then replaces the app with the images Apr 07 21:14:30 "opens an app" Apr 07 21:14:38 opens* Apr 07 21:14:47 the images with the apps* Apr 07 21:14:49 lol, that's pretty cheatish Apr 07 21:15:01 well maemo does it, but not the same as the iPhone Apr 07 21:15:21 open the clock app in maemo, you'll see the background in low quality, then the clock itself will show Apr 07 21:16:09 theres a clock app? Apr 07 21:16:13 erm... I see only clock Apr 07 21:16:22 ... Apr 07 21:16:34 or the app manager. I have to wonder why more apps are not doing it too. Apr 07 21:16:43 ahhhh see what you mean Apr 07 21:19:03 * MohammadAG loves the new zoutube Apr 07 21:19:16 javispedro, DrNokSNES does it too I think Apr 07 21:19:27 anything's better than the new actual site design Apr 07 21:19:29 * javispedro knows (for obvious reasons) Apr 07 21:19:38 which are? Apr 07 21:19:42 that I made it... Apr 07 21:19:45 LOL Apr 07 21:19:47 * MohammadAG failed Apr 07 21:19:50 big time Apr 07 21:20:24 :P :) Apr 07 21:20:36 Quick question, does PR1.1 use MyDocs/DCIM or MyDocs/.camera as the output folder for the Camera? Apr 07 21:20:47 DCIM Apr 07 21:20:50 dcim i think Apr 07 21:21:13 Hermes does it too. Apr 07 21:21:43 Jaffa: I know because I've always wondered why they implemented non-hidden hildon-fm "safe folders" (like music, documents, DCIM) but then didn't move .sounds to AUDIO Apr 07 21:22:10 and instead of that shipped the "Mac OS" "trick" Apr 07 21:22:28 ...and I proposed it for Maemo back in March 2008: http://www.maemopeople.org/index.php/jaffa/2008/03/09/improving_application_start_up_mockup Apr 07 21:22:49 javispedro: eh? Apr 07 21:22:56 Jaffa: DCIM is a standard Apr 07 21:22:58 javispedro, just wondering, how is that image on startup thing done? Apr 07 21:23:04 we've used it since day 1 of the n900 Apr 07 21:23:20 * MohammadAG is thinking it has to do with the .desktop file for some reason Apr 07 21:23:27 timeless: why .sounds, and not "sounds"? hildon-fm is now capable of handling non-hidden folders (does it for "dcim") Apr 07 21:23:35 s/does it/it does Apr 07 21:23:40 javispedro: read #maemo logs Apr 07 21:23:42 i've explained it before Apr 07 21:23:48 heck, i think i started writing a blog entry for it Apr 07 21:23:54 not sure if i finished Apr 07 21:23:57 * _llll_ would also like to know Apr 07 21:24:10 so go read the logs Apr 07 21:24:12 <_llll_> it's the kind of thing i expected on the wiki Apr 07 21:24:13 * MohammadAG would like to know, but would rather read logs Apr 07 21:24:47 http://viper.haque.net/~timeless/blog/170/ Apr 07 21:25:05 does anyone know a good mkv (matroska) player on the N900? Does mplayer plays it? Apr 07 21:25:08 s/plays/play/ Apr 07 21:25:09 ptl_demands_PR12 meant: does anyone know a good mkv (matroska) player on the N900? Does mplayer play it? Apr 07 21:25:55 that's corny, T-rex Apr 07 21:26:01 s/that's c/i'm h/ Apr 07 21:26:01 Scelt meant: i'm horny, T-rex Apr 07 21:26:05 :-D Apr 07 21:26:15 timeless: thanks. Apr 07 21:26:24 MohammadAG: hildon_gtk_window_take_screenshot is the thing you want to Google Apr 07 21:26:45 <_llll_> timeless_mbp: thanks for the link Apr 07 21:26:49 * timeless_mbp goes back to fixing up the article Apr 07 21:26:49 Jaffa, thanks :) Apr 07 21:26:53 it isn't anywhere near done Apr 07 21:27:15 <_llll_> i dont think most people would reformat something just because no files showed up Apr 07 21:27:22 <_llll_> instead they would say "it doesnt work" perhaps Apr 07 21:27:27 _llll_: you haven't met most people Apr 07 21:27:35 timeless: also you can document that via obex (pc suite) plain english names are shown :P Apr 07 21:27:41 <_llll_> thp: thankfully Apr 07 21:27:53 <_llll_> err, s/thp/timeless_mbp/ Apr 07 21:28:03 javispedro: regardless of the language used on the device and by suite? Apr 07 21:28:07 <_llll_> good to know i can delete that file anyway Apr 07 21:28:18 MohammadAG: Python implementation in https://garage.maemo.org/plugins/ggit/browse.php/?p=hermes;a=blob;f=package/src/org/bleb/wimpworks.py;h=4f602f2c2d1b90940c3958cab0a8d336ba09bfdf;hb=f0f5782da144008b3373c78e92967a3bbd78f0ec Apr 07 21:28:21 timeless: yep. you can look at ~/.obex-roots/ Apr 07 21:28:27 s/roots/root Apr 07 21:28:27 we just found out that Nokia violates http://depot.javispedro.com/nit/thewarningtm.jpeg Apr 07 21:28:37 phone calls lock the device to 600Mhz Apr 07 21:28:50 yes, I'm going to spend more time in a phone call than playing drnoksnes! Apr 07 21:29:04 timeless_mbp: there is something wrong with your blog, the latest blog entry on the RSS and ATOM feeds is from 2008: http://viper.haque.net/~timeless/blog/index.xml Apr 07 21:29:20 <_llll_> the explanation in "Why does Maemo fight the user by renaming and hiding dirs?" is hilarious, just shows why programmers should not be allowed to design things really! Apr 07 21:29:34 MohammadAG: General trick is you connect your expose-event to a function which calls hildon_gtk_window_take_screenshot after a short timeout. If your app is launched via DBus (.desktop & .service file) then hildon-desktop will find the pre-saved image and show it whilst your app starts. Apr 07 21:30:15 MohammadAG: https://garage.maemo.org/plugins/ggit/browse.php/?p=hermes;a=blob;f=package/src/org/bleb/wimpworks.py;h=4f602f2c2d1b90940c3958cab0a8d336ba09bfdf;hb=f0f5782da144008b3373c78e92967a3bbd78f0ec#l140 most specifically. Apr 07 21:30:28 Jaffa, thanks a heap mate :) Apr 07 21:30:43 I always thought it was something in Maemo 5 Apr 07 21:30:52 i.e not app dependent Apr 07 21:31:07 MohammadAG: App has to expose a screenshot which can be used sensibly. Apr 07 21:31:11 exactly Apr 07 21:31:13 MohammadAG: i.e. clock has to do it before showing the time Apr 07 21:31:43 Jaffa, can the quality be increased? Apr 07 21:32:06 (in App Manager it seems to be highly pixelated) Apr 07 21:32:25 (funny thing is, I think the iPhone screens the clock too) Apr 07 21:32:55 ptl_demands_PR12: i only publish stuff when i'm done with them Apr 07 21:33:48 ptl_demands_PR12: 170 is nowhere near done Apr 07 21:33:51 Oh my god :) Apr 07 21:33:54 as evidenced by the timestamps :) Apr 07 21:34:04 MohammadAG: probably, you'll have to reimplement take_screenshot function though :D Apr 07 21:34:09 Apple really rocks at UI design sometimes :) Apr 07 21:34:42 javispedro, well the only app I ported opens with a dialog not a window Apr 07 21:34:49 their ipad's screen keyboard actually has "blind mark" pn "J" key :D Apr 07 21:34:55 MohammadAG: UX team will kill you Apr 07 21:35:02 UX? Apr 07 21:35:07 ~UX Apr 07 21:35:10 2010's way of saying UI :) Apr 07 21:35:11 hello all btw :) Apr 07 21:35:15 moo wazd! Apr 07 21:35:19 javispedro, lol Apr 07 21:35:32 javispedro: UX is a bit different thing btw :) Apr 07 21:36:03 wazd: That's what all UI types say :-p Apr 07 21:36:08 the common use of it is pretty much interchangeable, though :) Apr 07 21:36:12 javispedro: UX guys plan interactions :) Apr 07 21:36:25 Jaffa: ohnos :D Apr 07 21:36:47 Jaffa: we're not like them! :D Apr 07 21:37:18 but seriously, blind mark on the touchscreen keyboard - epic Apr 07 21:37:44 smooth user experience = SUX Apr 07 21:37:58 http://besho.narod.ru/reviews/ipad/sc/7.PNG Apr 07 21:38:34 wazd: future evidence that a future iPad will have a physically morphing screen! Apr 07 21:38:41 Really awful user experience - RAWX :D Apr 07 21:38:49 oh, fail :) Apr 07 21:38:52 t-tan: btw, you packaged debhelper7? you might be interested in the discussion in -developers about pr1.2 sdk in autobuilder (one idea is to switch to squeeze toolchain) Apr 07 21:38:59 forgot the user :) Apr 07 21:39:04 wazd: that should be on failblog Apr 07 21:39:27 hey guys, slightly OT question for N900 users, how do I enable the speakers? Apr 07 21:39:46 I have the TVout cable plugged in and I'm looking for a way to use the built-in speakers while doing this Apr 07 21:39:47 javispedro: oh, thanks. I didn't follow the discussion on -devel lately... Apr 07 21:39:52 lucent: Err, turn the volume up? They're "enabled" when the headphones aren't attached and ... ah Apr 07 21:39:58 lucent: See how FM Radio does it Apr 07 21:40:03 ah, okay Apr 07 21:40:09 infobot: failblog is a blog for all-things fail http://failblog.org/ Apr 07 21:40:10 okay, b-man|ubuntu Apr 07 21:40:10 Some Programming Involved :) Apr 07 21:40:18 Jaffa: first the webcam, then morphing glass touchscreen Apr 07 21:40:22 ~failblog Apr 07 21:40:23 somebody said failblog was a blog for all-things fail http://failblog.org/ Apr 07 21:40:32 :) Apr 07 21:40:40 and this is how an iPad looks for real btw: http://besho.narod.ru/reviews/ipad/10.jpg Apr 07 21:40:57 wazd: lol (to blindmark) :) Apr 07 21:40:59 lucent: Indeed :-) Apr 07 21:42:23 http://maemo.org/packages/view/fmradio/ in case someone knows the answer already Apr 07 21:42:29 Having networking trouble in scratchbox; ifconfig returns SIOCGIFCONF: Bad address, and wget google.com returns Host not found. Won't resolve anything. Apr 07 21:42:58 My resolv.conf is the same as my host OS. Apr 07 21:43:16 Jaffa: trying to find links to the source Apr 07 21:43:17 sbox has, like, three copies of resolv.conf Apr 07 21:43:32 Lateralus: do a find /scratchbox -name 'resolv.conf' and edit them all Apr 07 21:43:46 what happened to engadget btw? is it an "ipad apps review" blog now? Apr 07 21:44:03 * Jaffa got really pissed off with that when doing his VM for grads doing one-day Maemo dev Apr 07 21:44:42 * javispedro is so pissed with the general status of name resolution in a typical desktop distro that has long switched to dnsmasqd/pdnsd (hey, like the tablets) Apr 07 21:44:53 in fact, I switched before they did that very same thing with network manager... Apr 07 21:45:21 javispedro: uh, who suggested switching to squeeze? wouldn't that delay PR1.2 till 2011? Apr 07 21:45:39 timeless_mbp: hmm, stuff from 2008? You wouldn't be the management person responsible for releasing PR1.2, would you? :P Apr 07 21:45:42 wazd: ive found using engadget.com/exclude/apple/ makes for a much better experience ;) Apr 07 21:45:43 folks, I have the link http://maemo.org/packages/view/fmradio/ from that how do I get to the source code? Apr 07 21:45:53 t-tan: autobuilder only. .symbol files would come, uh, "externally". Apr 07 21:45:55 frals: oooooh! Apr 07 21:46:06 <_llll_> Lateralus: sounds like no device exists rather than a resolv.conf issue Apr 07 21:46:07 so how is this sister of bearcave channel getting on? Apr 07 21:46:17 frals: can they mare /include/apple instead? :) Apr 07 21:46:20 make* Apr 07 21:46:34 t-tan: (.symbols files for firmware packages, that is) Apr 07 21:46:50 I bought the most boring gadget in my whole life - a fridge :D Apr 07 21:46:55 javispedro: Have we got a proposed mechanism by which we'd generate them? Do we need source, and have we got source for everything we'd need it for? Apr 07 21:47:00 argh, I just want the source code, or a link to how to get that, I don't have any intent to build the source Apr 07 21:47:01 you blug it in, and it's on Apr 07 21:47:06 plug* Apr 07 21:47:16 what happens to my hands I wonder :D Apr 07 21:47:26 seems to be resolving after I found /scratchbox/etc/resolv.conf Apr 07 21:47:35 <_llll_> lucent: apt-get source Apr 07 21:47:37 It won't download any data once connecting though Apr 07 21:47:43 <_llll_> if you;'ve enabled the deb-src stuff Apr 07 21:47:43 _llll_: I can't do that Apr 07 21:47:50 lucent: http://repository.maemo.org/extras-devel/pool/fremantle/free/source/f/fmradio/ Apr 07 21:47:56 <_llll_> you could just browse the repository alternatively Apr 07 21:47:58 Jaffa: ah-ha, thanks Apr 07 21:47:59 Jaffa: theoretically, we don't need source, but some ugly blank magic with a nm-like utility, the two (old/new) binary packages, and patience. Apr 07 21:48:08 *black, not blank :) Apr 07 21:48:11 apt-get update works, wget does not. Apr 07 21:48:24 ptl_demands_PR12: nah Apr 07 21:48:31 ptl_demands_PR12: feel free to read other articles Apr 07 21:48:43 if you see bugs, lemme know, the sooner people review them, the sooner i can publish :) Apr 07 21:48:46 javispedro: Sounds evil; would be good to have a PoC (and a poke of X-Fade, and then maybe Ed Bartosh, as to whether it's doable) Apr 07 21:48:53 javispedro: ...and whether it solves *all* the issues. Apr 07 21:49:04 javispedro: I _think_ it does from the last time we looked at it Apr 07 21:49:24 timeless_mbp: how do I get the index for still-to-be-published articles? Apr 07 21:49:27 Jaffa: it solves the "first part" (detecting if a package I just sent to the autobuilder is pr1.0 or 1.2), but still doesn't solve the other questions perse Apr 07 21:49:59 javispedro: Ah, QA UI etc. Seems that there's some consensus around "promote everything at once" forming Apr 07 21:51:10 Jaffa: more than one QA UI is out of the question I think. Now, wheter there are two "package pipelines" behind or just one I have currently no arguments for one or the other, but for some reason having two seems to be preffered Apr 07 21:51:31 by pipeline I mean "fremantle-extras-devel-1.0 -> -testing-1.0" Apr 07 21:51:35 * Jaffa nods Apr 07 21:51:35 Why is there a file "._ Apr 07 21:51:35 " on the device in MyDocs? Apr 07 21:51:42 timeless, "i"? Really? Apr 07 21:52:21 huh? Apr 07 21:52:47 It would seem to me that the simplest would be to just merge pr1.2 and pr1.0 in -devel and -testing and classify them at -stable promotion time would be easiest... Apr 07 21:53:10 [user@n900 MyDocs]% cat ._* Apr 07 21:53:10 Mac OS X 2��ATTR;����xThis resource fork intentionally left blank ��[user@n900 MyDocs]% Apr 07 21:53:27 don't do that! you'll break the internet! Apr 07 21:53:33 javispedro: I think people are too worried that the situation we're in now would become typical; when the fraction of apps using the new symbols is miniscule, if any. Apr 07 21:53:57 juliank: mine doesn't have the "|" but it seems something for Mac OS X, probably one of the hidden folders timeless_mbp was blogging about Apr 07 21:54:07 Ah, resource forks. Apr 07 21:54:12 BTW, I get 14.28 MiB/s copying files to the eMMC via USB. Apr 07 21:54:13 <3 Classic Mac OS Apr 07 21:54:19 Jaffa: that's a reason I think that the "just go back" option isn't so insane. Apr 07 21:54:26 GeneralAntilles: what is a resource fork? Apr 07 21:54:33 ptl_demands_PR12, not a data fork. Apr 07 21:54:36 Jaffa: being a geek of course I prefer the über complex one :) Apr 07 21:54:41 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resource_fork Apr 07 21:54:55 juliank: You can get about 25M/s if you read from both at once. Apr 07 21:54:56 ptl_demands_PR12, has to do with HFS Apr 07 21:55:00 javispedro: :-) Apr 07 21:55:00 juliank: mmc and sd Apr 07 21:55:02 ok Apr 07 21:55:09 javispedro: just read your yesterday's IRC discussion about autobuilder and squeeze devkit Apr 07 21:55:23 Resource forks are in principle a nice idea. Apr 07 21:55:27 If everyone did them Apr 07 21:55:39 t-tan: feel free to point any inaccuracies, I'm mostly speaking for a hardly-lenny-user perspective Apr 07 21:55:46 s/for/from ... Apr 07 21:56:04 GeneralAntilles: so there's no harm if I remove it from my N900, since I will never plug it into an Apple device/laptop, right? Apr 07 21:57:01 ptl_demands_PR12, sure. Apr 07 21:57:05 javispedro: how about setting up a parallel experimental autobuilder and uploading a couple of packages from extras to see how well it would work? Apr 07 21:57:09 It's not particularly difficult to get back, either. Apr 07 21:57:15 ptl_demands_PR12, it's just a bunch of aliases. Apr 07 21:57:19 javispedro: which role could dh7 play? Apr 07 21:58:22 t-tan: we'd use the squeeze devkit one. Just poking you since you seem to have experience using it in Fremantle :) Apr 07 21:59:20 ah, before I forget: whatever we do to the autobuilder would have to be easily replicated in local SDKs (more work) Apr 07 21:59:49 javispedro: I don't think there would be issues with backwards compatibility Apr 07 22:00:14 hopefully :) Apr 07 22:00:41 we definitely should test it - it's too complex to make a good guess Apr 07 22:02:39 Nokia should've used and supported the maemo-sdk+ Apr 07 22:02:59 I believe at this point that not even harmattan will use it. Apr 07 22:04:16 Harmattan will require submitting all efforts to Nokia for compilation under a "Nokia decides" license. Apr 07 22:05:35 I'm trying to upload to extras-devel, but the builder fails for i386 message: dpkg-genchanges: failure: cannot read files list file: No such file or directory Apr 07 22:05:57 Jaffa: FYI it looks like the FM Radio app does it by starting a gstreamer pipe from the PGA to the speakers Apr 07 22:06:00 not trivial Apr 07 22:06:12 tgalal: post link to full log, if possible Apr 07 22:06:35 javispedro, https://garage.maemo.org/builder/fremantle/retroconv_0.5.0-1/ Apr 07 22:06:45 lucent: that's how it "gets" the actual fm radio, but not how it enables speaker output iirc Apr 07 22:07:17 javispedro: there's alsa mixer controls for it Apr 07 22:07:37 I have some more tests to do and see if simple mixer controls can enable the speakers Apr 07 22:07:39 lucent: i think that's more like it, but I wouldn't be fiddling with alsamixer controls at random :) Apr 07 22:07:48 ptl_demands_PR12: i can generate an index Apr 07 22:08:07 lucent: There were definitely threads about it on maemo-developers and the alleged possibility of making things go "pop" in a bad way Apr 07 22:08:19 timeless_mbp: :] thanks. I found your articles to be quite interesting. Apr 07 22:08:27 * ptl_demands_PR12 trying to compile hot-babe for the N900 Apr 07 22:08:51 ptl_demands_PR12, it builds, but the window looks ugly Apr 07 22:08:56 it needs turning into a widget Apr 07 22:09:00 * timeless_mbp runs the indexer Apr 07 22:09:08 not that ive built it or anything Apr 07 22:09:59 ptl_demands_PR12: add .0 to the rss/atom feed urls Apr 07 22:10:01 it should work Apr 07 22:10:04 seems I'm not the first one trying, lol Apr 07 22:10:07 timeless_mbp: ok, thanks! Apr 07 22:10:22 Jaffa: uh-oh Apr 07 22:10:44 * timeless_mbp frowns Apr 07 22:10:47 safari doesn't like my file Apr 07 22:10:50 * timeless_mbp wonders why Apr 07 22:11:16 safari hates you Apr 07 22:11:22 you should go and stand in the corner Apr 07 22:11:44 "# PGA Bypass MUST NEVER be used with speakers, ONLY with headphones!" Apr 07 22:11:46 think about what you have done Apr 07 22:11:48 from the fmradio source Apr 07 22:12:01 timeless_mbp: tried http://viper.haque.net/~timeless/blog/index.rss.0 and http://viper.haque.net/~timeless/blog/index.xml.0 - didn't work Apr 07 22:14:18 for those of you who know, where is the CPU physically located? Apr 07 22:14:33 looking at the manual and I'm assuming it's on the left part Apr 07 22:15:21 this is important to know. If an N900 ever attacks you, you've got to aim to the heart. Apr 07 22:15:39 or the brain... Apr 07 22:16:02 ptl_demands_PR12, you cannot kill the n900 - its like the borg and has a hive mind. Apr 07 22:16:03 ptl_demands_PR12, or just hit it with a grenade Apr 07 22:16:11 if you do murder one, the others will know. Apr 07 22:16:25 MohammadAG, there are schematics somewhere Apr 07 22:16:40 There are naked pics somewhere. Apr 07 22:16:45 DocScrutinizer+++ Apr 07 22:16:54 PoP should say Micron on top, I think. Apr 07 22:16:56 WTF IS WRONG WITH TMO http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=600048#post600048 Apr 07 22:17:04 DocScrutinizer+++++ indeed Apr 07 22:17:06 MohammadAG: the users. Apr 07 22:17:13 ptl_demands_PR12: didn't work /how/ ? Apr 07 22:17:15 (sorry for the caps, it's just annoying me) Apr 07 22:17:31 now put out a pray or two for Doc's N900 :) Apr 07 22:17:41 SpeedEvil, why do I have a feeling this wasn't the case two years from now Apr 07 22:17:58 any facebook addicts, take a look at http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p=600100&postcount=81 Apr 07 22:18:00 MohammadAG: err? Apr 07 22:18:08 hrm, that script isn't doing what i thought it was doing Apr 07 22:18:11 * timeless_mbp goes fishing Apr 07 22:18:32 SpeedEvil, umm, I mean I feel the forums were betters pre-N900 Apr 07 22:18:35 better* Apr 07 22:18:39 duh Apr 07 22:18:47 ah Apr 07 22:19:02 sorry, try adding -draft1 to the url :) Apr 07 22:19:05 not .0 :) Apr 07 22:19:07 * w00t_ still says the forums are better just because he's on them now Apr 07 22:19:23 timeless_mbp: first one says not found, second one has no content Apr 07 22:19:27 oh, ok Apr 07 22:19:47 too many scripts, i have to pay attn to which script generates which draft format :) Apr 07 22:20:07 timeless_mbp: worked, I'll subscribe to your feed. Apr 07 22:20:10 thank you! Apr 07 22:20:36 ptl_demands_PR12: i really don't promise the random extension will have content Apr 07 22:20:44 eventually the primary urls will have content Apr 07 22:20:48 it's just a matter of time Apr 07 22:24:36 timeless_mbp: ok Apr 07 22:31:56 hi, how can i pull up the onscreen keyboard on my n900 while in xterm Apr 07 22:32:24 zappa, i don't think you can Apr 07 22:32:43 hmm, how can i inout a > character? Apr 07 22:32:50 Jaffa: Okay, I got it working with a bit of amixer cset voodoo Apr 07 22:32:54 thanks for the tips Apr 07 22:32:55 input rather Apr 07 22:33:03 zappa, ssh from a computer with a real keyboard? Apr 07 22:33:06 Alt-Ctrl (Alt is the blue arrow) Apr 07 22:33:08 or, bluetooth keyboard Apr 07 22:33:11 thanks Apr 07 22:33:16 then you'll have extra characters keyboard Apr 07 22:34:42 zappa: close the keyb - press on the screen Apr 07 22:34:57 how do you generally pull up the normal onscreen keyboard? for any app so to speak. I enabled it in settings but have seen no effect? Apr 07 22:35:01 blue-arrow - symbolkey - pressed in that order only Apr 07 22:35:11 then release symbol and release blue Apr 07 22:35:11 got it Apr 07 22:35:20 zappa: press a textfield Apr 07 22:35:28 zappa: with the screen open Apr 07 22:35:35 zappa: err keyb shut Apr 07 22:35:35 don't know how i hadnt notice it before Apr 07 22:35:46 guess i usually have the keyboard open Apr 07 22:36:02 Blame strong drink. Apr 07 22:36:20 ture that Apr 07 22:36:24 true even Apr 07 22:37:41 by chance any one doing any qtruby dev on the n900 here? I'm gonna see what I can do with it myself. Apr 07 22:40:17 how can I contact atilla77? (I'd like to ask him about shepherd and GSoC.) Apr 07 22:40:39 who had that chrome in gentoo chroot on n900? Apr 07 22:41:25 jacekowski: wont' it work in easy debiabn? Apr 07 22:41:30 maybe Apr 07 22:43:02 chrome armel? Apr 07 22:44:02 i just need info how long did it took to build Apr 07 22:44:41 because i'm kinda stuck on linking chrome binary Apr 07 22:45:00 ( after ~45 minutes it failed on out of memory kill ) Apr 07 22:45:24 so i'm changing my vm settings to add more memory to vm Apr 07 22:45:44 but over 45 minutes linking seems little bit long Apr 07 22:46:17 for webkit? i remember worse times when they were talking about tear :) Apr 07 22:46:17 javekowski: are you hitting a swap storm? Apr 07 22:46:18 zappa: qtruby? Apr 07 22:46:33 heh UAE runs unmodified. Not very easy to use though... Apr 07 22:47:24 microlith:: yeah qt bindings for the ruby language. someone has packaged it for either the n800 or n900. Apr 07 22:47:30 ooh Apr 07 22:47:37 maybe kaspernj Apr 07 22:47:46 he packaged up stuff for Gtk and Hildon Apr 07 22:48:25 when i search for it I don't find anything on the subject, but it is in one of the repos Apr 07 22:51:24 hmm Apr 07 22:51:28 does the n900 support qt3? I'm all about doing some qtruby, but I think gambas would be great for the community Apr 07 22:51:51 you'd have to port it, N900 only officially supports Qt 4.6 Apr 07 22:52:01 4.5 in the community repos Apr 07 22:52:08 I want to build ff1.5 Apr 07 22:52:24 * microlith wants to build NCSA Mosaic Apr 07 22:52:27 Can anyone remember OTTOTH how to reuse the Flash browser wrapper? I'm thinking of having the screensaver from the Joggler on my N900 as it's quite a nice fullscreen clock. Apr 07 22:52:40 zappa: note that gambas iirc had gtk+ support first, and maemo is pretty much still gtk+ these day. Apr 07 22:52:51 jaffa theres notes on tmo about it on diablo Apr 07 22:52:59 not sure about fremantle Apr 07 22:53:06 thx javisperdo, thats a good point Apr 07 22:54:12 mmm, Red Vines Apr 07 22:54:21 and they're just stale enough to be perfect Apr 07 22:54:48 Jaffa: how long did it took them to ship it? Apr 07 22:54:51 i'm not crzy interested in gambas as its a language that i personally think doenst lead anywhere, but at the same time it could be like bringing visual basic to the n900 and that means lots more apps Apr 07 22:55:00 jacekowski: Ordered Good Friday, arrived Tuesday Apr 07 22:55:22 zappa: as someone scarred by VB, that's not a good reference to make :) Apr 07 22:55:32 red vines = crzy delicious Apr 07 22:55:49 vb made windows in my mind Apr 07 22:56:06 I was quickly moved by friends to Delphi Apr 07 22:56:21 Jaffa: is there a video of such an screensaver, so good that you'll even kill your N900's battery for it? Apr 07 22:57:02 (curious ;P) Apr 07 22:57:09 javispedro, the alarmclock next to my bed (and the joggler) are both plugged in devices - overnight charging isnt a problem for some devices Apr 07 22:57:17 for odd reasons i'm noting that the media player cannot playback videos that i record on the n900 because it's an "unsupported format". howver, they work again on a reboot. Apr 07 22:57:25 javispedro: It's in Mer at the moment. Apr 07 22:57:26 anyone else notice this? Apr 07 22:57:54 Jaffa: record a video of the clock. autoplay at midnight. Apr 07 22:58:06 javispedro: http://images.intomobile.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/06/joggler-review1.jpg - it's basically a nice flip clock Apr 07 22:58:09 SpeedEvil_: :-) Apr 07 22:58:21 Jaffa: aha Apr 07 22:58:34 *feels sudden gadget lust* Apr 07 22:58:50 javispedro: 49 quid Apr 07 22:58:56 javispedro: http://shop.o2.co.uk/joggler/ Apr 07 22:58:57 jaffa - are you and mrs jaffa planning new offspring? o_O :D Apr 07 22:59:07 lcuk: No :) Apr 07 22:59:19 someone could make a killing reselling those outside the UK :) Apr 07 22:59:58 thats very out of date clock jaffa Apr 07 23:00:00 hah, a properly priced internet tablet at last Apr 07 23:00:11 javispedro: Mer runs; MeeGo (long term) and Mer^2 are my hot picks Apr 07 23:00:18 lcuk: Or futurey Apr 07 23:00:24 jaffa is your mer on a stick Apr 07 23:00:26 * javispedro decides to quit #maemo and go to joggler.org Apr 07 23:00:28 javispedro: No battery, though Apr 07 23:00:28 its pasty Apr 07 23:00:36 * javispedro quickly undoes that Apr 07 23:00:47 2009 june 12 was a friday, 2010 is a saturday Apr 07 23:00:53 javispedro: And x86, so probably would be a large 'un Apr 07 23:00:57 lcuk: Very futurey :-p Apr 07 23:01:07 either way, its wrong Apr 07 23:01:13 u think atom is the future of mobile? Apr 07 23:01:14 does it pullback internet and auto tune Apr 07 23:01:18 or have you not got that far Apr 07 23:01:19 x86 device at 49.9 ? Apr 07 23:01:23 uh Apr 07 23:01:29 zappa: for the sake of our battery life, I hope not Apr 07 23:01:35 oh and competition :) Apr 07 23:01:36 I'm sure it runs MS-DOS faster than this desktop Apr 07 23:02:04 * lcuk feels a tingle when touching joggler screen Apr 07 23:02:25 javispedro: It's very nicely built. The built in OS has two good features: a nice screensaver, a digital photo frame and a digital radio. Apr 07 23:02:49 javispedro: with a touchscreen Apr 07 23:02:59 I would be sold at the idea of a 49.9 x86 "tablet" :P Apr 07 23:03:12 how pc-ish is it? Apr 07 23:03:15 i was llokin ginto the new atmo arch harcore before i picked up the n900, the LG and the (avva?sp) look like they've got it all figured out Apr 07 23:03:21 I assume a lot, if Mer runs on it. Apr 07 23:03:21 javispedro: it can run ubuntu Apr 07 23:03:34 isn't the joggler running an Atom? Apr 07 23:03:52 microlith: it is Apr 07 23:04:03 why isn't this joggler stuff, uh, more popular? why it doesn't even have a wikipedia article? Apr 07 23:04:25 javispedro: iirc it's a re-brand of another company's product Apr 07 23:04:26 javispedro: it used to cost over 100 quid not so long ago Apr 07 23:04:42 javispedro: EFI rather than BIOS. Check Stskeeps' blog http://jogglerhacks.blogspot.com/ and http://wiki.maemo.org/O2_Joggler Apr 07 23:04:55 it's so near the impulse buy price point Apr 07 23:05:11 javispedro: That's why I impulse bought it. Apr 07 23:05:47 javispedro: 49 quid price is supposed to be limited to a couple of weeks. 800x480 screen. 1GB RAM. USB. Ethernet. Wifi. Digital radio. Digital photoframe. And seemingly hackable Apr 07 23:05:58 u guys got it good. the good mobile tech never comes out in the states first Apr 07 23:06:23 wow where can i get one if i am outside UK? Apr 07 23:06:26 zappa: It's a rebranded OpenPeak device Apr 07 23:06:43 Jaffa: so yes, now I understand microlith's point about making a fortune reselling :) Apr 07 23:06:51 zappa: ARM is from england Apr 07 23:07:26 zappa: 1st computer was built in england Apr 07 23:07:34 http://www.openpeak.com/OpenFrame7.php ? Apr 07 23:09:18 jackeowski: i could argue that on different levels,but I wont. I know here in the states we get screwd on mobiles and mobile plans. Apr 07 23:09:20 javispedro: Earlier one Apr 07 23:10:11 Us just got screwed on net neutraility if u guys didnt see the news Apr 07 23:10:18 not yet Apr 07 23:12:11 Federal court told the FCC (communications regulation committee) that they can't make ISP's NOT ban p2p. Apr 07 23:12:36 right, they said the FCC does not have the authority Apr 07 23:12:49 they can be given the authority though, but that would require congress to act Apr 07 23:13:12 unfortunately Congress acts on money Apr 07 23:15:51 Jaffa: what the hell. that stuff could potentially even run windows. decently. Apr 07 23:16:19 question for you all: In the states I have my n900 on Tmobile, which from what I understand is the seOver Is there a small company overseas that uses the ATT 3g signal?re Tmbile is small compared to ATT. Apr 07 23:16:34 the cpu alone should be a quarter of the price at least. Apr 07 23:17:25 zappa: overseas wehre? Apr 07 23:17:27 where* Apr 07 23:17:28 now I'm mad :) Apr 07 23:17:50 microlith:: anywhre the n900 is sold Apr 07 23:18:48 well, the same frequency is used by some providers in south america and australia I think Apr 07 23:18:55 but that just means you won't get 3G Apr 07 23:19:00 just curious why ATT with all their moeny would have targeted a different radio than most the rest of the world Apr 07 23:19:16 not sure Apr 07 23:19:45 I'm on AT&T, and it's not too terribly slow Apr 07 23:20:16 zappa, I doubt it was ATTs choice Apr 07 23:20:27 they just bought whatever freq was available at the time Apr 07 23:20:33 the n900 definetly pulls up web pages faster than what my iphone 2g did Apr 07 23:20:35 with that stuff you just get what you can get Apr 07 23:20:55 the us 3g frequenices were sold in an auction Apr 07 23:21:09 all freq are sold in an auction Apr 07 23:21:15 tmobile got the scraps. Apr 07 23:22:04 they sould just free up everything and make everyone use UWB Apr 07 23:22:29 agreed Apr 07 23:22:34 Isn't that like saying: "Stop using GMail, here's OWA"? Apr 07 23:22:52 no OWA love? heh Apr 07 23:23:06 been using it exclusively for 3 weeks... No love, no. Apr 07 23:23:09 its differen t crash, cause could use iether eith your provider Apr 07 23:23:22 zappa: get a keyboard Apr 07 23:25:09 lol Apr 07 23:25:21 (typed on his ipad) Apr 07 23:25:51 seriously? Apr 07 23:25:54 no Apr 07 23:25:59 well, I guess it could be Apr 07 23:26:03 but I just made that up Apr 07 23:27:20 CTCP VERSION reply from zappa: xchat 2.8.6 Ubuntu Apr 07 23:27:30 Nope, just failwhale surfing on a keyboard Apr 07 23:27:36 ipad i thin wold be neat to have, just overpriced is all i think Apr 07 23:27:53 overpriced? It's cheaper than a N900 FFS Apr 07 23:28:13 yeah but u could get a real deal tablet for the same price Apr 07 23:28:21 eh? Apr 07 23:28:25 u pay big money for hte n900 for the form factor Apr 07 23:28:26 "real deal" Apr 07 23:28:43 zappa: seriously, take a bit more time to spell and type correctly Apr 07 23:29:03 and the is misspelled teh, not hte, get it right Apr 07 23:29:19 crash: doing the best the beer will let me Apr 07 23:29:32 uh oh, drunkircing Apr 07 23:29:34 zappa: not my problem. Either spell correctly or go slurr in the pub Apr 07 23:29:55 crash: and its a netbook, tiny keyboard and all. Apr 07 23:30:03 again, excuses, not my problem. Apr 07 23:30:36 Oh come on. Apr 07 23:30:37 however, dinner is coming, thanks all for the info Apr 07 23:30:37 crashanddie, N900 lets you slur in the pub. Apr 07 23:30:53 GeneralAntilles: except he ain't in the pub Apr 07 23:30:58 crashanddie, yeah, yeah. Apr 07 23:31:05 I do appreciate it, Crash and all Apr 07 23:31:17 GeneralAntilles: also, note I didn't prevent him from slurring on IRC while being in a pub :P Apr 07 23:31:56 * C-S-B wants to be in the pub. Apr 07 23:32:09 http://static.apberget.se/images/p/g/3bf/3bf664d1c8fdd964c01ed9e4aacea783_522_600.jpg couldn't resist Apr 07 23:34:45 i'm dangerously falling in love with this stupid joggler thing Apr 07 23:34:50 I blame you all Apr 07 23:35:09 javispedro: It's sweet Apr 07 23:35:13 stop Apr 07 23:35:14 could some one help me out with these logs? https://garage.maemo.org/builder/fremantle/retroconv_0.5.0-1/ why am I getting failed for i386???? Apr 07 23:35:19 I'm not listening!! Apr 07 23:35:22 * Jaffa really would like a Maemo 5 environment on it though Apr 07 23:35:25 LOL Apr 07 23:35:28 All that touch scrolley goodness. Apr 07 23:35:37 noooo Apr 07 23:35:42 lol Apr 07 23:35:53 javispedro: It's just like a portable, open, thicker, iPad. Apr 07 23:35:59 javispedro: At a tenth of the price ;-) Apr 07 23:36:20 Joggler? Apr 07 23:36:22 must ... resist... too away... too far... Apr 07 23:36:25 javispedro: If nothing else, cheap digital photo frame. How much do you pay for a 7" 800x480 digital photo frame with wireless? Apr 07 23:36:45 * b-man|laptop waves it in front of javispedro Apr 07 23:37:23 * javispedro explodes, starts sending emails Apr 07 23:38:00 javispedro: Join us :) Apr 07 23:38:12 javispedro: If it's good enough for lcuk, lbt and Stskeeps; it's good enough for me :) Apr 07 23:38:25 Oh shit. I should really go to bed. Long day tomorrow Apr 07 23:38:53 * javispedro doesn't know how to import it either way, not with a week's notice :P Apr 07 23:38:54 jaffa mine is waiting downstairs unpowered up because it loses configuration every reboot Apr 07 23:39:34 * lcuk would like a nice usb stick with mer on :) Apr 07 23:39:59 * Jaffa beds. G'night Apr 07 23:40:03 \o Apr 07 23:40:04 gnite Apr 07 23:40:08 c ya jaffa Apr 07 23:40:45 I just tried to update luxus Apr 07 23:40:48 and look what happened Apr 07 23:40:49 dpkg: error processing /home/user/MyDocs/.apt-archive-cache/qt4-homescreen-loader_4.6.2~git20100406-0maemo1_armel.deb (--unpack): trying to overwrite `/usr/lib/hildon-desktop/loaders/libqtpluginloader.so', which is also in package qt4-maemo5-homescreen-loader Apr 07 23:40:54 :/ Apr 07 23:41:45 that sucks :\ Apr 07 23:42:08 probably pr1.2 autobuilder issue Apr 07 23:42:23 yeah. And it's caused by PR1.2 not being available Apr 07 23:43:23 * b-man|laptop wonders why they would release the SDK without a firmware update to prevent these kind of issues... Apr 07 23:43:27 so don't worry, it will fix itself. eventually. when pr1.2 is release, sometime around july 2012 Apr 07 23:43:38 hmm-hmm. Apr 07 23:43:59 this is why i didn't update my sdk yet ;) Apr 07 23:44:13 damn stupid joggler. Apr 07 23:44:18 get out of my head Apr 07 23:44:32 javispedro: Stop misleading people. Apr 07 23:44:36 * b-man|laptop waves it in front of javispedro some more Apr 07 23:44:38 javispedro: no way will it be that early. Apr 07 23:44:45 xD Apr 07 23:45:09 it seem we're building a whole mythology around PR1.2 Apr 07 23:45:49 heh Apr 07 23:45:53 SpeedEvil: but I have insider info! that's what my magic 8-ball is telling me at least! Apr 07 23:46:05 I understand it ties up some of the loose plot elements in "LOST". Apr 07 23:46:08 * SpeedEvil inspects his magic-8-balls. Apr 07 23:46:13 'ask again later' Apr 07 23:46:34 mine has been upgraded to say "ask again in july 2012 Apr 07 23:46:35 " Apr 07 23:46:40 i think the PR1.2 update is somewhat similar to the Maemo4>4.1 situation Apr 07 23:47:07 IMO it's more similar to Maemo4=4.1 Apr 07 23:47:15 since it breaks abi from chinook/4.0 Apr 07 23:47:32 but still so similar Apr 07 23:47:33 yeah Apr 07 23:48:18 hermes doesn't do that Apr 07 23:48:23 is there an easy way to integrate msn (haze) contact pictures into the N900 contacts? Apr 07 23:48:53 bahj Apr 07 23:49:00 why does everything remind me of the joggler Apr 07 23:49:05 LOL Apr 07 23:49:30 at look at my monitor, see my displaylink/dlo usb port and think hm.. joggler has usb host... Apr 07 23:49:35 *I look Apr 07 23:50:16 try just imagining something else, it works for me xD Apr 07 23:50:25 porn Apr 07 23:50:28 doesn't work. Apr 07 23:50:30 rofl Apr 07 23:50:46 * SpeedEvil cues the flashback scene from Airplane. Apr 07 23:52:46 javispedro: try not to imagine joggler and porn together - it sounds very wrong xD Apr 07 23:52:53 Hi, anyone knows about performance of PyQT4 in Maemo (n900) Apr 07 23:52:58 is it acceptable Apr 07 23:53:02 does anyone else have problems logging into msn using "MSN protocol plugin for Conversations and Contacts"? Apr 07 23:53:11 b-man|laptop: indeed the name of the thing wasn't chosen wisely Apr 07 23:53:28 lol yes xD Apr 07 23:54:53 javispedro: well we got complained at for telepathy-haze :P Apr 07 23:55:16 yes, telepathy is such a bad name >:) Apr 07 23:55:32 and at the same time so good a name. Apr 07 23:55:40 it used to be called IPCF, so count yourself lucky :D Apr 07 23:56:27 ipcf-haze, much better and politically correct :) Apr 07 23:57:25 * javispedro 's firefox's awesomebar is already full of joggler stuff :( Apr 07 23:57:38 xDD Apr 07 23:59:04 javispedro: what OS does this joggler thingie run? Apr 07 23:59:22 propietary os afaiu, but linux. Apr 08 00:00:18 "but linux"? A closed-down linux system? Apr 08 00:00:35 custom ui Apr 08 00:00:40 flash based Apr 08 00:00:45 well, if it's linux, you can always install something else :) Apr 08 00:02:04 hmm Apr 08 00:02:05 it's kinda creative that it's flash-based, admiringly Apr 08 00:02:14 **admittingly Apr 08 00:02:17 gah Apr 08 00:02:34 * b-man|laptop needs coffee xD Apr 08 00:02:40 maybe I could use my old HTC Athena - picture at http://images.wmexperts.com/articleimages/2007/_/_media_2007_03_htc-advantage-us.jpg - for such a calendar. nevertheless, based on two reviews I've just read, I didn't find this joggler very useful. Apr 08 00:03:13 well, my m130 is starting to .. uh, get old as wall pda :) Apr 08 00:03:33 screen is pretty dim, touch screen is pretty unsensitive, and battery lasts four or five seconds Apr 08 00:04:26 * b-man|laptop wonders why NetBSD refuses to properly support newer arm architectures Apr 08 00:12:15 @fqhy http://blog.rburchell.com/2010/04/qt-on-maemo-warning.html Apr 08 00:15:38 b-man|laptop: because BSD is going the way of the dodo Apr 08 00:16:24 lol Apr 08 00:16:48 bsd is being used in other good things like the haiku os Apr 08 00:17:02 ok app has been queued for loading into fremantle extras-devel repository, how long does this usually take? Apr 08 00:17:04 I thought you said good things? Apr 08 00:17:08 heh Apr 08 00:39:27 X-Fade, ping Apr 08 00:47:52 ~ping Apr 08 00:47:53 ~pong Apr 08 00:56:16 lmao Apr 08 00:56:29 53 reports about the fake pr1.2 release Apr 08 00:57:05 rofl Apr 08 00:57:35 crashanddie, which part was fake Apr 08 00:58:16 http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=598720#post598720 Apr 08 00:58:40 * MohammadAG remembers he reported that Apr 08 00:58:42 http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=598795#post598795 Apr 08 00:59:19 crashanddie, why don't you delete those? Apr 08 00:59:22 instead of locking Apr 08 00:59:34 because, we're not allowed to delete anymore Apr 08 00:59:43 anyway, I resigned from my moderator position Apr 08 00:59:45 because apple does it? Apr 08 00:59:51 lol why? Apr 08 01:00:02 Too much drama, can't be bothered anymore Apr 08 01:00:26 how many mods does the site have again? Apr 08 01:00:38 Some wanker tells people to use extras-devel to absolute noobs, I delete the message, and the guy goes to the council because I'm abusive Apr 08 01:00:53 o.O Apr 08 01:01:22 If I don't delete the message, we get 1 report per half hour for the next 2 days Apr 08 01:01:29 If I do delete it, I get shit Apr 08 01:01:36 If I edit it, I get shit Apr 08 01:01:37 so you're losing either way :/ Apr 08 01:01:45 If I warn the guy, I get shit Apr 08 01:02:02 If I give him an infraction, I get shit for being abusive, and power-hungry Apr 08 01:02:10 that just sucks Apr 08 01:02:14 moderation - do not delete - just wipe things below the threshhold of normal users Apr 08 01:02:43 honestly, i think the maemo community is too conservative Apr 08 01:02:46 If we move threads around, some people start threads saying that we're abusive, elitist, and shaping the forum in a way only us want to see it Apr 08 01:02:54 we managed 18pages of potential porn Apr 08 01:02:56 so what, some guy uses the devel repo Apr 08 01:03:01 big deal Apr 08 01:03:06 if we don't move them around, we have people complaining that the moderators don't do anything Apr 08 01:03:23 ban those who you think are wrong Apr 08 01:03:26 problem solved Apr 08 01:03:27 corecode: so a guy who doesn't even understand how to use skype on his N900 should be using bleeding edge apps? Apr 08 01:03:34 why not? Apr 08 01:03:36 his phone Apr 08 01:03:37 he shouldn't have an N900 Apr 08 01:03:45 no offense, but tmo sucks Apr 08 01:03:48 why not? Apr 08 01:03:49 corecode: because we'll get 10 times the amount of crap once he breaks it? Apr 08 01:03:52 and i don't think it is the moderators Apr 08 01:03:58 crashanddie, Why don't you just do what you think is appropriate, and if the complaints get you removed as a moderator, so be it? Apr 08 01:03:58 we should be embracing users Apr 08 01:03:59 it is the users Apr 08 01:04:05 well, not literally Apr 08 01:04:08 every user wants to say something Apr 08 01:04:19 Ken-Young: because I have better things to do in life than get yelled at when I'm trying to help? Apr 08 01:04:25 and I thought the site I mod was crap... Apr 08 01:04:41 i can't use tmo Apr 08 01:04:44 never had any mod issues except one or two who'd PM stuff when you give them an infraction Apr 08 01:04:44 lcuk: depends which ones, I don't mind embracing female users Apr 08 01:05:00 lol Apr 08 01:05:26 be careful, some of those you call female have lunchboxes Apr 08 01:05:49 lcuk: I really made an effort on the type of comments I made on tmo ever since I became a mod Apr 08 01:05:55 how long does it take for a package to appear in extra-devel ? Apr 08 01:06:28 tgalal, If it builds properly, it's almost instantaneous. Apr 08 01:06:59 takes 30 minutes here Apr 08 01:07:17 it's instant when I upload the old version with a new number (just to make me look like an idiot) Apr 08 01:07:43 it's been an hour, and the build logs show OK Apr 08 01:08:10 tgalal, this delay gets me everytime i submit to builder Apr 08 01:08:15 tgalal, What's the package name? Apr 08 01:08:18 because i have to also wait - and it feels like months Apr 08 01:08:41 I've never seen a significant delay. Apr 08 01:09:00 Ken-Young, retroconv Apr 08 01:09:04 Ken-Young, i usually upload a library, then apps using that library Apr 08 01:09:10 they cant go in at same time Apr 08 01:09:13 its an eternity Apr 08 01:09:50 (if you time it, it's actually less than an hour, but it feels longer :P) Apr 08 01:12:09 maybe I screw something up in packaging Apr 08 01:12:23 I've trying to get it right for like 5 hours Apr 08 01:13:18 tgalal, if it says OK just wait Apr 08 01:13:51 tgalal, There is a warning with your package build. It says the package does not have a proper description. Apr 08 01:13:59 http://maemo.org/packages/package_instance/view/fremantle_extras-devel_free_armel/retroconv/0.5.0-1/ Apr 08 01:14:11 tgalal, to extend what ken just said ^ Apr 08 01:14:16 read the package page Apr 08 01:14:55 i wonder, are these faults reported in the cauldron build log sent to email? Apr 08 01:15:08 Ken-Young, what should a proper description look like Apr 08 01:15:43 tgalal, http://wiki.maemo.org/Maemo_packaging Apr 08 01:16:32 lcuk, aghh not another guide ! lol Apr 08 01:16:33 tgalal, Do you have a Decription field in your control file?" Apr 08 01:16:48 Description Apr 08 01:17:03 Ken-Young, yes I do Apr 08 01:17:53 I feel like I'm commiting incest Apr 08 01:18:01 I'm using grep on Windows. Apr 08 01:18:06 Can you show us (pastebin or something)? Apr 08 01:18:14 the description is also shown when I try to open with gdebi on ubuntu Apr 08 01:18:18 ok 1 sec Apr 08 01:18:29 Ken-Young: grep " 18:2" iasp-server.2010-03-31.log >> result.log Apr 08 01:19:08 Sorry, crashanddie - I was responding to tgalal , but didn't tag my response. Apr 08 01:19:26 Ken-Young: I know, I was being thick on purpose Apr 08 01:20:04 Ken-Young, http://pastebin.com/vGeFRqFy Apr 08 01:20:57 follows this the XB-Maemo-Icon-26: section Apr 08 01:21:24 tgalal, Is line 12 all one long line? Apr 08 01:21:36 yes Apr 08 01:22:43 tgalal, I don't know if this is the problem, but it may not like the long line. In my package, I have broken the long description into several separate lines. Each of them must start with a space. Apr 08 01:23:14 Ken-Young, I'll give it a shot, thanks Apr 08 01:37:42 Hooboy Apr 08 01:37:49 Gotta love Talk Apr 08 01:38:33 http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p=600274&postcount=43 Apr 08 02:02:31 howdy Apr 08 02:03:24 is there something better than the backup app? Apr 08 02:03:43 something to save my ~ off-device? Apr 08 02:03:49 rsync? Apr 08 02:05:14 yea, sure Apr 08 02:05:33 something nicely packaged, only running when i am on certain wifi networks Apr 08 02:05:36 etc. Apr 08 02:05:50 maybe only with wifi and battery plugged in Apr 08 02:15:58 I have a question about GSOC application: if I'de like to apply to work on an idea in the list (or a bunch of them), do I write up my own application and send it to you or do you guys have a template? Apr 08 02:22:12 ea_suter, There's usually more activity on this channel during the evening hours in Europe. Apr 08 02:22:21 right... Apr 08 02:22:33 thanks anyhow Apr 08 02:28:30 ea_suter: contact VDVvx Apr 08 02:28:37 VDVsx, sorry Apr 08 02:28:50 ea_suter: drop him an email, he should be quite responsive from 10AM GMT Apr 08 02:30:02 corecode: no app like that, but I'm sure it would have a lot of success. Might even plug-in to the export framewokr Apr 08 02:30:28 I did Apr 08 02:30:53 but he didn't mention any specifics about applying Apr 08 02:31:17 I guess that if I send him my application it should be alright? Apr 08 02:36:46 ea_suter: did you check the wiki pages? Apr 08 02:36:52 ea_suter: the application process is listed there Apr 08 02:40:26 ok, thanks Apr 08 02:47:30 ~ping Apr 08 02:47:31 ~pong **** ENDING LOGGING AT Thu Apr 08 02:59:56 2010