**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Sat Jun 19 02:59:57 2010 Jun 19 03:00:13 you can select on restore on a per app level iirc Jun 19 03:00:33 so maybe you have a look into backup app neverheless Jun 19 03:01:18 at least it can restore your themes, your desktop widgets etc, and you can opt out from installing any apps Jun 19 03:01:36 ah ok good to know :) now i only have to wait for the file to download :| Jun 19 03:03:34 rodald: you can create a new backup, after upgrade/flashing, and then restore that immediately, to practice and check it Jun 19 03:04:05 obviously restoring to the just backup'd state can't do any harm Jun 19 03:04:23 i guess Jun 19 03:04:31 when you feel confident then select the real backup file to restore Jun 19 03:04:46 but first i have to get out of this bad experience Jun 19 03:05:05 at least i am lerning how to flash :) Jun 19 03:05:09 will work, no worries :-) Jun 19 03:09:19 hey guys wuts going on in this chatroom? Jun 19 03:12:19 heading to bed. Thanks once again Jun 19 03:12:54 right now i wish i have a faster internet connection only 31.9 out of 179.2 : ( Jun 19 03:58:03 If I have a dialog in qt on maemo what signal is sent to the widget/window if the area outside is clicked Jun 19 05:02:41 I just flashed eMMC image and rootfs Jun 19 05:02:54 and the settings seem to be set on 3G pone mode as opposed to Dual Jun 19 05:09:01 apt to switch that Jun 19 05:11:20 morn Jun 19 06:01:05 http://google-opensource.blogspot.com/2010/06/introducing-google-command-line-tool.html $ google docs edit --title "Shopping list" --editor vim Jun 19 06:05:13 O_O Jun 19 06:26:07 http://alteeve.com/~lance/bally/bb_ovrl2.gif let's write an emulator for Bally Basic Jun 19 07:12:07 i messed m device up.. Jun 19 07:12:09 someone help me? Jun 19 07:12:54 what device? Jun 19 07:13:14 i installed MAFW equalizer Jun 19 07:13:17 then wrote apt-get remove mafw-gst-renderer Jun 19 07:13:28 now the media player is completely gone Jun 19 07:13:31 even the widget Jun 19 07:13:49 any way to restore it? Jun 19 07:16:19 Heya guys. What is the theme name for Digital Nature (orange one) in /usr/share/themes? Jun 19 07:16:28 I am trying to mod the transitions.ini Jun 19 07:20:17 And if I mod /usr/share/hildon-desktop/transitions.ini, will it then be changed right away? the effects. Jun 19 07:24:30 yes no need to restart Jun 19 07:28:25 th3hate: I can see that now, really nice. Do you have experience in modding it? Jun 19 07:30:36 hey I just started having an issue, the bluetooth will no longer transmit voice to any device. Media works fine, just voice... any idea what is going on? Jun 19 07:35:27 You sure the mic is working fine? Jun 19 07:36:54 yes, regular calls work Jun 19 07:39:10 besides it's the audio being received, not my audio Jun 19 07:39:45 I can't hear the other caller Jun 19 07:40:14 not sure if they can hear me... Jun 19 07:45:01 Hmm, was it dead on arrival? Jun 19 07:50:33 had it since december... Jun 19 07:51:24 was working fine till yesterday, haven't installed nor updated any software Jun 19 07:52:46 the only thing I did different is I tried playing media through bt... ever since then voice no longer transmits Jun 19 08:00:44 is there any way to restore media player if i deleted it by mistake?? Jun 19 08:01:21 th3hate: how did you delete it? Jun 19 08:02:16 i installed MAFW equalizer plug in Jun 19 08:02:26 then wrote apt-get remove mafw-gst-renderer to remove it Jun 19 08:02:33 now media player is completely gone Jun 19 08:02:44 heh Jun 19 08:03:07 can prolly apt-get it back in. apt-cache search Jun 19 08:03:39 th3hate: apt-get told you that it would remove it, and you just hit Y or enter to confirm? Jun 19 08:04:20 it said it would only remove the MAFW equ Jun 19 08:04:26 but it removed the whole media player Jun 19 08:04:35 th3hate: you didnt read Jun 19 08:05:00 o rly :D Jun 19 08:05:05 anyway to restore it? Jun 19 08:05:43 th3hate: apt-get install mediaplayer Jun 19 08:06:23 ok i'll try now Jun 19 08:06:51 mumble Jun 19 08:07:29 simple upstart script: that launch exec /etc/init.d/rc.local start Jun 19 08:07:56 rc.local contain just "case "$1" in" switch Jun 19 08:08:07 where in case of start do a . /etc/rc.local Jun 19 08:08:22 /etc/rc.local contain 3 iptables rules Jun 19 08:08:30 after the bootup of the phone Jun 19 08:08:37 if i do an iptables -L -vn Jun 19 08:08:49 i see those three rules repeated three times Jun 19 08:08:54 ( so, 9 rules ) Jun 19 08:09:08 any idea on why it seem that rc.local is called 3 times? Jun 19 08:09:51 oh, it is the respawn call on the upstart script probably Jun 19 08:09:55 * nextime answer to myself Jun 19 08:10:15 should bluetooth mouse just work with the n900? or do i need to setup something manually? Jun 19 08:10:43 Any way to download an image from my n900 to my desktop without using scp? Jun 19 08:10:48 By using ssh only. Jun 19 08:11:12 marcus: can't you use netcat? Jun 19 08:11:45 i suppose you could just ssh host cat file > something Jun 19 08:11:48 nextime: Never heard of that. Guess it requies netcat on n900 as well? Jun 19 08:11:59 marcus : yes Jun 19 08:12:20 it is a sort of "raw tcp telnet like" thing Jun 19 08:12:50 pigeon : no, if you do ssh host cat file Jun 19 08:12:54 you can the file on the host Jun 19 08:13:04 Yeah, I am doing that right now. Jun 19 08:13:05 a oh Jun 19 08:13:09 yes, it will work, you right Jun 19 08:13:10 But that's with "vi" Jun 19 08:13:10 :D Jun 19 08:13:20 I'd rather use something like gedit etc. Jun 19 08:13:53 ok, my rc.local now is working the right way Jun 19 08:14:09 now i have the latest problem and my maemo is configured for my needs :) Jun 19 08:14:35 speaking of netcat, i don't see netcat in the maemo repo, and it's not enabled in busybox. Jun 19 08:14:43 I just did a transitions mod, and damn it is looking good. Thanks to dscobsct Jun 19 08:14:45 maybe someone have an idea on that issue: openvpn. I have a vpn link from my n900 to a remote server Jun 19 08:15:01 if i start the vpn connected to my home wireless Jun 19 08:15:08 all is working like a charm Jun 19 08:15:20 if i start the vpn connected using hsdpa Jun 19 08:15:35 tcp connection between the two endpoint of the vpn are working Jun 19 08:15:38 same for udp connections Jun 19 08:15:50 if i ping from the n900 to the server all is working Jun 19 08:16:18 but, if i ping from the server to my n900, icmp packets arrive to the n900 tun device, but it doesn't answer at all Jun 19 08:16:27 routing is ok Jun 19 08:16:47 and mtu doesn't seem to be the problem as i tryed to reduce that and tcp/udp connection are working Jun 19 08:17:12 any idea on what can be the issue? Jun 19 08:25:13 nextime: the n900 does not reply to pings by default Jun 19 08:26:18 valdyn : this is a good point, but if so, why if i start the vpn connected over wifi i can ping it? Jun 19 08:26:20 nextime: your provider probably blocks ICMP (or really, any incoming packets) from you. tmobile by chance? Jun 19 08:26:33 or are you talking about pinging over the VPN? Jun 19 08:26:39 grishnav : no, as the icmp are INSIDE the openvpn tunnel Jun 19 08:26:46 ah, ok Jun 19 08:27:03 layer 2 or layer 3 mode? Jun 19 08:27:26 grishnav : it is a symble openvpn link with static keys over udp Jun 19 08:27:33 ok but Jun 19 08:27:37 layer 2 or layer 3 mode? :P Jun 19 08:27:46 tun or tap? Jun 19 08:27:52 grishnav : tun Jun 19 08:27:55 nextime: doesnt make sense, maybe you pinged the wrong ip, maybe something you run enables echo replies. It's just off by default Jun 19 08:28:04 ok so, layer 3 Jun 19 08:28:12 is the n900 getting an IP? Jun 19 08:28:13 valdyn : no, the ip is the right one Jun 19 08:28:20 and if so, from where? Jun 19 08:28:25 grishnav : it is fixed on the openvpn config Jun 19 08:28:25 and is it p2p or client/server mode? Jun 19 08:28:37 i have 192.168.228.3 server side and .4 n900 side Jun 19 08:28:41 p2p Jun 19 08:28:46 hmm Jun 19 08:29:01 so it works over wifi, but not hspa? Jun 19 08:29:15 es Jun 19 08:29:15 that doesnt make sense either Jun 19 08:29:17 yes Jun 19 08:29:18 coincidence Jun 19 08:29:20 its something else Jun 19 08:29:32 vpn is vpn, no matter the underlying protocol Jun 19 08:29:34 openvpn running in tcp or udp mode? Jun 19 08:29:41 udp Jun 19 08:29:46 ok Jun 19 08:29:54 could be your provider isn't tracking the connection correctly Jun 19 08:30:00 can you get other traffic through? Jun 19 08:30:06 like can you ssh to your n90 when on hspa? Jun 19 08:30:08 grishnav : yep, tcp and udp are working Jun 19 08:30:13 hrm Jun 19 08:30:15 weird Jun 19 08:30:19 also icmp from n900 to server Jun 19 08:30:37 are there any firewall rules on the server? Jun 19 08:30:42 and also if i ping from the server to n900 with a tcpdump -nvvvi tun0 on the n900 side Jun 19 08:30:47 nextime: did you already look if icmp echo replies are en- or disabled? Jun 19 08:30:48 i see the icmp packets coming Jun 19 08:31:05 valdyn : are enabled Jun 19 08:31:09 ok Jun 19 08:31:24 weird Jun 19 08:31:55 are you running iptables ora nything on the n900? Jun 19 08:31:57 maybe traffic is not really going thru that vpn tunnel Jun 19 08:32:29 yeah Jun 19 08:32:42 where is the openvpn "server"? is it on the internet, or on your home lan? Jun 19 08:32:47 and what is the addressing of your home lan? Jun 19 08:33:16 nextime: look at route -n output Jun 19 08:33:24 grishnav : it is a dedicated server on internet Jun 19 08:33:32 valdyn : already double checked Jun 19 08:33:34 ok, that blows that theory. :p Jun 19 08:33:56 nextime: ok, thats not useful, you need to paste these things somewhere for us to look at Jun 19 08:34:07 who is your hspa provider? Jun 19 08:35:07 grishnav : vodafone Jun 19 08:35:20 but i think it is irrilevant as the tunnel is established Jun 19 08:35:38 yeah, it should be Jun 19 08:35:53 unless they are handing you a private ip that happens to be the same subnet you decided to use for your vpn Jun 19 08:36:00 but that's unlikely Jun 19 08:36:25 no, the for two reason: first other connection (tcp/udp) are working on the same pair of ip Jun 19 08:36:25 routing on the mobile phone subnet is "weird" Jun 19 08:36:36 and anyway, gprs0 is on the 10/8 subnet Jun 19 08:36:48 they hand you a private IP? Jun 19 08:36:49 that sucks. Jun 19 08:36:59 grishnav : yep, vodafone use nat Jun 19 08:37:06 that sucks hard, lol Jun 19 08:37:10 but it shouldn't matter Jun 19 08:37:38 grishnav : but i have public ip from vpn and 7.2 megs of connection for just 3 euro/week Jun 19 08:37:45 so, it's acceptable to be inside a nat Jun 19 08:37:45 :D Jun 19 08:37:57 nextime: where is your route -n output? Jun 19 08:38:11 Destination Gateway Genmask Flags Metric Ref Use Iface Jun 19 08:38:11 192.168.228.3 0.0.0.0 255.255.255.255 UH 0 0 0 tun0 Jun 19 08:38:11 94.23.194.106 10.150.46.21 255.255.255.255 UGH 0 0 0 gprs0 Jun 19 08:38:11 10.150.46.21 0.0.0.0 255.255.255.255 UH 0 0 0 gprs0 Jun 19 08:38:11 0.0.0.0 192.168.228.3 0.0.0.0 UG 0 0 0 tun0 Jun 19 08:38:21 ack, not here... Jun 19 08:38:26 where 94.23.194.106 is the server Jun 19 08:38:35 ( sorry for the paste, it was four lines.. ) Jun 19 08:40:01 nextime: if 94.* is your server, then traffic to that host is route through gprs0, not through the tun0 Jun 19 08:40:32 valdyn : yesm as you can see it is routed to gprs0 Jun 19 08:41:43 Any idea why my N900s bluetooth would no longer transmit calls to a paired device, after having tried streaming Media over Bluetooth? Jun 19 08:41:59 it just won't transmit the audio from phone calls Jun 19 08:45:55 OK Jun 19 08:46:07 weird, but i found the problem Jun 19 08:46:20 reducing the tun mtu to 1164 Jun 19 08:46:27 ping is working. Jun 19 08:46:44 so, it was a fragmentation issue Jun 19 08:47:02 that is weird Jun 19 08:47:18 enable the openvpn mtu-test option and see what it detects Jun 19 08:48:47 yep, now i will investigate deeply, the important thing is that i found the direction Jun 19 08:48:48 :) Jun 19 08:49:10 i have one more issue to solve with the sip client now Jun 19 08:49:31 it send register request with the gprs0 address even over vpn Jun 19 08:49:36 so, it doesn't work Jun 19 08:52:40 what are you using for the other endpoint? asterisk? Jun 19 08:53:35 yep Jun 19 08:53:37 hmm Jun 19 08:53:49 well I'm not sure why the sip client int he n900 is putting the wrong address in the URI Jun 19 08:54:02 but you can probably use nat=yes in the asterisk peer config for the phone to work around it Jun 19 08:54:04 grishnav : it is a know bug on sophia-sup Jun 19 08:54:07 sip Jun 19 08:54:16 yes, i'm trying with the asterisk nat helper Jun 19 08:54:17 http://www.voip-info.org/wiki/view/Asterisk+sip+nat Jun 19 08:56:27 yep, i know very well *, thanks :) Jun 19 08:57:22 an iptables masquerade on the tun interface of the n900 + a nat=yes in asterisk server side do the job. Jun 19 09:03:49 not sure why you would need the masq but glad you got it workin'. :) Jun 19 09:04:27 grishnav : cause nat helper on the asterisk side get the source ip and use that for rtp instead on the one that the client send inside the registration request Jun 19 09:04:48 but also the source ip is the gprs0 one if i don't put a masquerade rule on the tun0 Jun 19 09:04:59 so, i need to also masquerade the source ip Jun 19 09:06:04 anyway, just tryed a call to a mobile phone of my brother with: Jun 19 09:06:26 n900 connected with hsdpa, the sip client register to the asterisk server @ my home Jun 19 09:06:34 the n900 is over vpn with a remote server Jun 19 09:06:42 my home is connected in vpn with the same server Jun 19 09:06:54 the call is ok, not too latence, acceptable quality Jun 19 09:06:56 :) Jun 19 09:07:48 now i just need two asterisk config to redirect also my office number and internal numbers Jun 19 09:07:53 and all it's in the way i need Jun 19 09:07:55 :D Jun 19 09:13:15 nice Jun 19 09:25:05 FAT: Filesystem error (dev mmcblk0p1) fat_get_cluster: invalid cluster chain (i_pos 0) Jun 19 09:25:09 anybody had that? Jun 19 09:28:51 hm Jun 19 09:28:57 had to fsck from host Jun 19 09:33:23 corecode: OC'ed? Jun 19 09:37:48 the error was misleading Jun 19 09:38:07 it complained about mmcblk0p1, but it ment mmcblk1p1 Jun 19 09:52:39 * AntiPudd1ng dies laughing http://pics.nase-bohren.de/dixie.jpg Jun 19 09:52:48 Morning, al Jun 19 09:52:51 Morning, all Jun 19 10:07:54 Aloha Jun 19 10:08:01 What a night ... Jun 19 10:14:07 I removed media player by mistake and restored it using apt-get install mediaplayer.. but the wiget is still missing (media player widget) Jun 19 10:14:09 how to restore it? Jun 19 10:15:34 haha Jun 19 10:29:44 Heya Jun 19 10:29:56 Is the Nokia N-Series theme /usr/share/themes/default? Jun 19 10:30:15 Like, Digital Nature theme is /usr/share/themes/beta Jun 19 10:35:29 marcus yes, I believe so. Jun 19 10:36:05 Hello, anyone knows How do I specify libqtm-contacts in the .pro file in qt-creator? Jun 19 10:36:07 altergo: For some reason, it has not got a images/ foldes inside. Jun 19 10:40:24 anyone using emacs' org-mode on n900? Jun 19 10:51:32 Is the Nokia N-Series theme /usr/share/themes/default? Jun 19 10:51:32 alpha Jun 19 10:52:18 Aha, thanks! Jun 19 10:52:36 Perfect. Replacing the launcher icon with an Arch icon :3 Jun 19 10:53:35 Woo my package is in extras :D Jun 19 10:54:07 yw :) Jun 19 10:54:22 MohammedAG51: Will "cp * /usr/share/themes/alpha/images/" copy all from the current dir? Jun 19 10:55:46 MohammadAG51: Will "cp * /usr/share/themes/alpha/images/" copy all from the current dir? Jun 19 10:55:52 A instead of E, sorry. Jun 19 10:56:33 marcus: no it wont Jun 19 10:57:07 valdyn: How come? Does it require "cp *.png /PATH/UND/SO/WEITER" Jun 19 10:57:14 marcus: cp -R ./ /usr/share/themes/alpha/images/ Jun 19 10:57:36 That would be a folder, wouldn't it? Jun 19 10:57:36 yes, to /usr/......../images/ Jun 19 10:57:43 I only want the files. Jun 19 10:57:57 So it would work with my example, aye? Jun 19 10:58:01 if there are folders add -r before * Jun 19 10:58:10 marcus: probably for that case, but that just is not "all" Jun 19 10:58:30 valdyn: You are right :-) I meant all files, thanks for pointing that out! Jun 19 10:58:32 marcus: and its -r , not -R oops Jun 19 10:59:31 I'm just a little scared using all these commands, as I'm on root in SSH. Jun 19 11:00:30 globbing is easy to get wrong Jun 19 11:00:43 why wouldn't it... Jun 19 11:00:55 Yes, indeed. Jun 19 11:03:35 Yes Jun 19 11:06:59 * lcuk wonders how this opened Jun 19 11:07:18 is X-Fade around? Jun 19 11:08:19 it's a saturday Jun 19 11:08:20 * MohammadAG51 kicks lcuk Jun 19 11:08:41 * lcuk slaps MohammadAG51 with a frals Jun 19 11:09:11 does anybody else know how to configure wanna-build + buildd + sbmdmock + scratchbox +whatever else is requred to work together? Jun 19 11:09:17 * MohammadAG51 takes a shower Jun 19 11:09:17 damn fishy smell Jun 19 11:09:54 MohammadAG51, we dont normally like to complain :P Jun 19 11:10:00 err, huh? Jun 19 11:10:02 but you *do* have stink lines today Jun 19 11:10:13 lcuk, did I hurt his feeling? Jun 19 11:10:18 +s Jun 19 11:10:23 whos Jun 19 11:10:44 trouty Jun 19 11:10:51 don't worry about that Jun 19 11:10:56 frals :P Jun 19 11:11:02 nahh Jun 19 11:11:05 you have to learn to don't care Jun 19 11:11:14 i don't care Jun 19 11:11:20 jacekowski, are you trying to make an autobuilder Jun 19 11:11:31 lcuk: yes Jun 19 11:12:03 i tihnk all the details were posted - jebba managed to get it all working afaik Jun 19 11:12:07 and so wanna-build is giving me a lot of grief Jun 19 11:12:21 so far* Jun 19 11:12:23 isn't the autobuilder scratchbox + some scripts Jun 19 11:12:29 MohammadAG51: yep Jun 19 11:12:40 that "some scripts" is the part that is causing problems Jun 19 11:12:54 Database for unstable doesn't exist Jun 19 11:12:54 Jun 17 19:20:01 buildd[6657]: wanna-build --list=needs-build --dist=unstable failed; status 2/0 Jun 19 11:12:57 Jun 17 19:20:01 buildd[6657]: Nothing to do -- sleeping 300 seconds Jun 19 11:13:10 but if i do su buildd Jun 19 11:13:14 and then use same sommand Jun 19 11:13:22 i have different error Jun 19 11:13:38 well, not an error, just information that there is nothing to do Jun 19 11:16:53 heh... My ISP is really run by nerds... Look at the time on the modem: http://www.free.fr/adsl/ Jun 19 11:17:00 "1337", "leet" Jun 19 11:17:42 MohammadAG51 \щ/ Jun 19 11:17:45 \о/ Jun 19 11:18:00 I think I'm going to redo the UI for my app in C++, Python/PySide loading times are awful. Jun 19 11:18:29 why C++? Jun 19 11:18:35 Qt Jun 19 11:18:36 just do specific parts in C and call it from Python Jun 19 11:18:39 because python sucks Jun 19 11:19:03 i vote for tpm in n900 that disallows executing of any python software Jun 19 11:19:04 and perl Jun 19 11:19:15 python doesn't suck Jun 19 11:19:25 well, everything that starts with p Jun 19 11:19:31 it's a fun language that made programming fun again for anyone who's developed for more than a couple of years Jun 19 11:19:32 It's a config editor, written in Qt, the whole thing can be done in C++ very easy, with the plus side of it being a lot quicker. Jun 19 11:19:34 perl, python, php Jun 19 11:20:06 PyQt is horrible, though, a bastard language that shouldn't have seen the light of day Jun 19 11:20:09 Ruby is far superior Jun 19 11:20:11 disclaimer: I've never really used it. Jun 19 11:20:19 ruby is bollocks on a string Jun 19 11:20:23 alterego: r looks almost like a p Jun 19 11:20:33 it's the bollocks indeed :P Jun 19 11:20:33 jacekowski: you too are bollocks on a string :P Jun 19 11:20:45 i don't believe in intepreted stuff Jun 19 11:20:50 it has to be real code Jun 19 11:20:55 like C or C++ or asm Jun 19 11:21:09 Ruby is far better than python, it's just not as mature or widespread. Jun 19 11:21:13 crashanddie, pyqt isnt a language Jun 19 11:21:31 python is decent and the qt aspect adds niceness Jun 19 11:21:32 that's what I said Jun 19 11:21:36 I said a bastard language :P Jun 19 11:21:40 so not really a language Jun 19 11:21:42 a halfing Jun 19 11:21:45 halfling Jun 19 11:21:47 fair Jun 19 11:21:55 pygtk before it? Jun 19 11:22:00 * crashanddie shivers Jun 19 11:22:05 Does PyQt segfault as much as PySide? Jun 19 11:22:23 lcuk: the fact that python segfaults because of Qt is enough of a warning for me Jun 19 11:22:26 i say Chinese is a language =) Jun 19 11:23:11 crashanddie: it is painful. Jun 19 11:23:26 alterego, pickup a pair of swords and try swinging them round your head Jun 19 11:23:38 Heh Jun 19 11:23:40 im certain you will lose some kind of limb or bodypart Jun 19 11:24:00 pyqt is similar - you have to be a trained ninja :p Jun 19 11:24:21 It's very poor extension development when it actually causes predictable segfaults because of it's naff object handling. Jun 19 11:25:10 It's awful, I'm thinking of ressurecting Ruby/Maemo just to use Qt in a decent interpreted language :P Jun 19 11:25:28 alterego, why not write native qt? Jun 19 11:25:46 lcuk: on device hacking mainly. Jun 19 11:26:04 sure Jun 19 11:26:04 Sometimes I just want to write something on the move. Jun 19 11:26:13 i know that feeling :) Jun 19 11:26:33 For anything major I'll use Nokia Qt SDK becuase then you've got the designer. Jun 19 11:27:07 If we had a Qt designer for N900 I'd be very happy. Jun 19 11:27:27 Just need those .ui files ^.^ Jun 19 11:27:39 on device designing is ... a good thing :) Jun 19 11:28:27 Indeed, makes for the best user interfaces :) Jun 19 11:28:59 A because you're trying to be as succinct as you can and b) because you've got the real environment. Jun 19 11:29:22 alterego, problem with designers though is that you dont have the entire surface available Jun 19 11:29:27 I pretty much coded the whole of the Media Im Status Updater on the device in Vi one afternoon. :) Jun 19 11:29:43 at least on a larger slate you can show entire 1:1 tablet screen + all tools around Jun 19 11:29:54 Yeah Jun 19 11:30:17 Maybe we could use tv out :) Jun 19 11:30:49 its hardly on the go then is it :p Jun 19 11:30:58 but, yeah that works nicely Jun 19 11:31:06 tv out can show different info the normal tablet ui Jun 19 11:34:56 I'd quite like to write some apps that can drive the tvout separately actually. Jun 19 11:35:05 alterego, i already have one Jun 19 11:35:17 You've managed it, how would I go about it. Jun 19 11:35:22 ? Jun 19 11:35:34 apt-get install libliqbase1-dev ;) write in c Jun 19 11:35:44 apt-get build-essential (on device) Jun 19 11:35:46 make .. Jun 19 11:35:47 ghey ... :P Jun 19 11:36:14 * frals trouts MohammadAG51 with lcuk Jun 19 11:36:22 nice, gmorning frals Jun 19 11:36:26 Is it possible to drive the TV out using a GLES context? Jun 19 11:36:30 afternoon o/ Jun 19 11:36:50 fuckin hell im actually glad im in finland today Jun 19 11:36:51 alterego, perhaps you would have to look Jun 19 11:36:58 frals, rly Jun 19 11:36:58 why Jun 19 11:37:04 Heh Jun 19 11:37:04 whole stockholm is a complete mess due to royal wedding Jun 19 11:37:27 why are they having your wedding when you arent in the country :p Jun 19 11:37:33 ;D Jun 19 11:37:35 or is that the point :p Jun 19 11:41:41 Cool, the latest Linux Format has quite a few interesting articles. Jun 19 11:42:11 lcuk: is it hard to drive the tvout seperately? Will the normal TV-OUT service get in the way at all? Jun 19 11:43:39 alterego, i found out by accident Jun 19 11:44:04 Sure, but you've done it :P Jun 19 11:44:06 on the device, the normal apps that drive the YUV overlay close themselves when you pan to dashboard and back to "normal" rgb Jun 19 11:44:20 Right Jun 19 11:44:21 but i found out when i run liq* apps, and pan back Jun 19 11:44:26 the yuv continues running Jun 19 11:44:38 and the on device screen shows regular desktop Jun 19 11:44:54 Hahah Jun 19 11:44:57 Okay Jun 19 11:45:18 I wonder why that is Jun 19 11:45:38 because i didnt stop the overlay Jun 19 11:46:12 Oh, right Jun 19 11:47:24 giggle, fmms downloads: 366667! Jun 19 11:48:11 lol frals Jun 19 11:48:28 lcuk: :D Jun 19 11:49:07 frals: did you see my note on twitter? Jun 19 11:49:35 uh, maybe? ;D Jun 19 11:49:52 I need to put together my 'download package log and app stats, and work out how many users it has' script Jun 19 11:49:56 facebook says: 8,371 facebrick users as of yesterday Jun 19 11:50:18 w00t_: cool :> grats! Jun 19 11:50:26 One person at least is using my compile of wpa_supplicant Jun 19 11:50:29 * frals wishes he had someway of knowing # of users Jun 19 11:50:43 Damn !! how can you build the Maemo pre-alpha2 root filessystem without the alpha repos ? Jun 19 11:50:57 download stats seems to update rather sporadically Jun 19 11:51:01 frals: I think saying >25k is probably sane Jun 19 11:52:17 google command line thingy is nice. Jun 19 11:52:26 screwgoth, jacekowski is doing some autobuilder stuffs Jun 19 11:52:51 slightly different level i bet, but there may be some crossover in info Jun 19 11:53:05 Oh, so the repos have been recently moved ? Jun 19 11:53:10 I have one download :P Jun 19 11:53:27 And that was me .... Jun 19 11:53:34 * SpeedEvil downloads alterego. Jun 19 11:55:50 crikey! Jun 19 11:56:09 bioinformatics companies offering me licenses for things Jun 19 11:56:40 has tweakr stopped working for anyone? it stopped snapping icons to grid here :S Jun 19 12:00:17 Can anyone living in the UK recommend a carrier that offers a prepaid-based mobile internet plan? Something like, buy a sim, load it with 10 bucks, buy a one-month flat for 9.99? Jun 19 12:01:02 Oo, 3 downloads :J Jun 19 12:01:05 Shapeshifter, on o2 Jun 19 12:01:14 i have PAYG Jun 19 12:01:20 and if you top up 15 Jun 19 12:01:26 Shapeshifter: Vodafone do it too I think. Jun 19 12:01:31 you can get a bolton for unlimited texts/internet Jun 19 12:01:35 Shapeshifter: Is 1G/mo enough? Jun 19 12:01:52 mhh, nice. yeah I doubt I need more then 300mb Jun 19 12:02:00 Shapeshifter: t-mobile offer a 20 quid for 6 months booster Jun 19 12:02:18 So you get a free SIM, top up with 20 quid, apply the booster, and you're good for 6 months Jun 19 12:02:25 mh I just need it for a week, really. Maybe I'll not get one at all but if it's cheap, I might. Jun 19 12:02:40 http://www.t-mobile.co.uk/services/payg/boosters/ Jun 19 12:02:41 oh Jun 19 12:02:41 SpeedEvil: that is quite cheap Jun 19 12:02:43 thanks Jun 19 12:02:50 they also do it for - IIRC - a fiver a week Jun 19 12:03:16 2.50 for 5 days is good Jun 19 12:03:26 yeah Jun 19 12:03:55 thanks guys. Jun 19 12:04:06 np Jun 19 12:16:09 fff, found all the episodes for Fringe season 2 except episode 16. Jun 19 12:16:15 w t f :) Jun 19 12:16:21 I need a coffee. Jun 19 12:24:40 http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p=721554&postcount=25 Jun 19 12:24:42 oh my. Jun 19 12:25:39 hi everyone i am trying to flash my device but nothing happens i am using the Maemo Flasher 3.5 but nothing seems to happen should it be somthing indicating that its flashing or something because all i got its the permision request from windows to run Jun 19 12:26:27 Uh, sounds like you just clicked it? Jun 19 12:26:43 what do you mean with clicked? Jun 19 12:27:06 Well you're not supposed to click on it, it's not a graphical program Jun 19 12:27:15 Heh Jun 19 12:27:21 It's only usable from shell/commandline/etc Jun 19 12:27:29 oh no i run the comand line on the flasher Jun 19 12:27:49 No, you run the flasher on the command lkine :P Jun 19 12:27:50 Ok, and yes, it's supposed to say stuff there :/ Jun 19 12:37:33 arbeiten! Jun 19 12:41:41 pupnik gmorning \o #liqbase has a very much alive kotczarny in it Jun 19 12:42:02 cool Jun 19 13:01:55 is there a weather radar app (storms, rain) for maemo? Jun 19 13:08:28 weatherbug in ovi store Jun 19 13:09:07 ? Jun 19 13:20:06 Heya guys, is it correct that you can't play opengles games on pr1.2? When installing ioquake3, it says: "The following packages have unmet dependencies: liblges1-sgx-img:" Jun 19 13:20:20 I read somewhere on the forums, that it did not work on pr1.2 yet. Jun 19 13:23:06 there is a gles1 problem afaik Jun 19 13:23:48 Is it a serious issue? I was going to do some gles stuff tonight :P Jun 19 13:24:47 alterego: I do not know what the real problem is, but for some reason I have seen that people can't install/make Quake3 work. Jun 19 13:25:25 hrm, okay I'll take a look. Jun 19 13:26:09 Probably never be fixed, either. Jun 19 13:26:39 what is the control scheme for quake3, by the way? Jun 19 13:27:22 I still reckon we'll get a PR1.3 at the least. Jun 19 13:27:41 BCMM: I'm pretty sure the accelerometer is in use for movement. The light sensor is for shooting. Jun 19 13:27:50 GAN900: you remind me way too much of marvin the paranoid android Jun 19 13:27:58 ok, that's weird enough for me to want to install it Jun 19 13:28:40 Stskeeps, it's not paranoid if it's supported by history. Jun 19 13:29:29 GAN900: They have to support N900 longer as it's a proper handset I reckon. Jun 19 13:29:48 alterego, we'll see. Jun 19 13:30:11 So far nothing they've done has shown much of a commitment to that. Jun 19 13:30:38 Yeah, I guess we will. :) Jun 19 13:31:17 Hello! Does anybody has successfully established synchronization of contacts and calendar appointments between N900 and any linux application? Jun 19 13:31:27 The N900 will probably be my primary for at least another year and a half. Jun 19 13:31:47 Nokia's long since moved on as a company, however. Jun 19 13:33:11 If they fail to release more updates for it even just bug fixes, they're going to effectively force a lot of normal users to use our MeeGo community supported dist, which is a bad idea. I really think they'll have to put at least Qt 4.7 on it, which Ki thought I heard slated for PR1.3 Jun 19 13:33:39 MeeGo will be more closed source, right? Jun 19 13:33:47 less Jun 19 13:34:11 Less closed source? Jun 19 13:34:12 As the developer community will be moving to MeeGo as soon as we can. We're going to leave a lot of normal users in the llurch Jun 19 13:34:17 Well, how usable is MeeGo currently? Jun 19 13:34:27 kW_, define MeeGo Jun 19 13:34:32 For handsets, not Jun 19 13:34:43 The UX is still closed for some stupid reason Jun 19 13:35:00 alterego, I don't think they particularly care, personally. Jun 19 13:35:03 GAN900: MeeGo as in http://repo.meego.com/MeeGo/releases/1.0/core/images/meego-n900-open-armv7l/ Jun 19 13:35:08 Stskeeps: that can't be GAN900 :-P Jun 19 13:35:25 What's a Paranoi? Jun 19 13:35:26 marcus: AIUI, the issue with OpenGLES is that some third party apps specified exact version dependency, which has now moved on Jun 19 13:35:29 GAN900: well, I hope enough of them care enough to influence those that do not. Jun 19 13:35:36 kW_: theres no graphical UI in that Jun 19 13:35:53 valdyn: oh, so it is not usable from a user's point-of-view? Jun 19 13:36:00 Jaffa: Aha, crap, but good to know that it is only some apps that are affected. Jun 19 13:36:02 alterego, I think the core issue is that upper management doesn't care and there's a lot of belt tightening going on. Jun 19 13:36:09 kW_: correct Jun 19 13:36:44 and what's the best place to start tightening? ;) Jun 19 13:36:53 GAN900: sure I agree, the issue is obviously middle management. Jun 19 13:36:58 GAN900: MarvinTheParanoidAndroid Jun 19 13:37:04 N97 support :P Jun 19 13:37:17 MarvinTheParanoi, yes, yes. I get it. Jun 19 13:37:20 And all other symbian phone lines :) Jun 19 13:37:27 alterego, higher up than that, I think. Jun 19 13:37:37 GAN900: blame freenode for not supporting 138chars in nick Jun 19 13:37:45 Anssi and friends. Jun 19 13:37:46 Hah Jun 19 13:37:51 MarvinTheParanoi, yes, I know. :P Jun 19 13:38:02 Anssi the Dinosaur Jun 19 13:38:23 Heh. Jun 19 13:39:21 Where's this bloody bus, I want to be home already. Jun 19 13:39:47 They should stick GPS' in buses we can track. Jun 19 13:40:37 that would be customer service Jun 19 13:40:40 Ansi or Anssi ? Jun 19 13:40:42 Heh Jun 19 13:40:59 can't have that now Jun 19 13:42:12 Why don't we have something like the desktop Ovi maps for the N900 wiith the mashup capabilities :( Jun 19 13:43:49 Corsac, Anssi Vanjoki Jun 19 13:44:02 oh Jun 19 13:44:05 What is ~/cities for? Jun 19 13:44:06 not the agency Jun 19 13:44:20 The GPS? Jun 19 13:45:53 marcus: it contains all of the map data Jun 19 13:46:23 I thought even ANSII Jun 19 13:46:26 alterego: And if I removed it, I guess it would just DL it again when I launch the Ovi maps thingy? Jun 19 13:46:54 marcus: yes, though I just download all the maps for europe and stick it in there. Jun 19 13:47:19 Saves you having to download maps when/if you cant. Jun 19 13:47:23 And you get that from the Ovi site, aye+ Jun 19 13:47:53 No, I had to manually do it, you can get the files by googling for it for S60 Jun 19 13:48:02 Aha, okay. Jun 19 13:48:03 Same data files. Jun 19 13:48:25 I'll see if I can get the link Jun 19 13:51:08 http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/06/18/AR2010061805630.html?nav=igoogle Jun 19 13:51:34 WashPost delivers lulz again. Jun 19 13:54:24 GAN900: lbt: I'm not surprised about few maemonians contributing to meego. Given the fact that whatever you ask for to discuss, no matter if it's ofono or PA, the answer is "let's build first version - *then* you can come up and discuss and convince us there's something better". We all know this isn't going to fly. Add to that the "heartly welcome" meego gave the maemo community as in replies to lbt's (and your) post about join... Where is Jun 19 13:54:25 meego heading at? Jun 19 13:55:09 Doc: besides, we already heard this when maemo5 was baking Jun 19 13:55:37 Doc: it is not like people have not voiced their concern about brain-damaged Maemo5 dialogs, for example Jun 19 13:55:50 :nod: Jun 19 13:56:32 I have a very strange question: is it possible to tie a script to sip registration? My cellular provider allows me to accept incoming calls via sip, but i have to set redirection status via http. Jun 19 13:56:33 DocScrutinizer: go read about release process and schedules for why big changes arent made at this point Jun 19 14:00:07 Arkenoi: should be possible (look for dbus scripting pkg/app), but I honestly doubt it will work, as it's hard to unset this redirection in case you lose SIP due to connectivity loss Jun 19 14:00:29 Stskeeps: it is not like any explanation of nokia release process will make nokia look better in the eyes of n900 users Jun 19 14:00:42 DocScrutinizer, it's ok as redirection is reset authomatically on unregister Jun 19 14:00:53 ok then Jun 19 14:01:10 Stskeeps: If the release process leads to the majority of users being pissed off, then change the release process. Jun 19 14:01:29 RST38h: i don't care about nokia process, i was speaking meego Jun 19 14:01:41 Arkenoi: there's a pkg called "dbus scripting *" or similar, it can start shellscripts on arbitrary d-bus events Jun 19 14:02:09 What's wrong with m5 dialogs? Or is it specific app dialogs that are your concern? Jun 19 14:02:17 Stskeeps: Meego is not very interesting to the wide circle of users/developers until there is a device Jun 19 14:02:31 alterego: lots of space wasted Jun 19 14:02:41 alterego: not quite compatible with the gtk+ dialogs. Jun 19 14:02:53 RST38h: main topic was PA or ofono, in meego context Jun 19 14:03:00 RST38h: well, device, or usable functioning system for a currennt device .. Like the N900 :) Jun 19 14:03:04 alterego: obviously do not work in portrait mode (see "lots of spae wasted") Jun 19 14:03:17 :/ yeah. Jun 19 14:03:21 people have to realize a product has to be made, and a quality one Jun 19 14:03:42 alterego: (what's wrong) just look at time/date selector Jun 19 14:03:47 Stskeeps: Ok. Would you call Maemo5 a "quality product"? Jun 19 14:03:50 Software, I mean? Jun 19 14:03:57 Well, as a devic the N900 is pretty awesome, even without HDMI :) Jun 19 14:03:58 alterego: about as wrong as it gets Jun 19 14:04:14 RST38h: yes, at least its more stable than what open community has been able to deliver Jun 19 14:04:16 As a device, it has no analogs Jun 19 14:04:22 not one that breaks randomly and is changing apis like britney spears changes underwear Jun 19 14:04:41 Stskeeps: The "open community" delivering things is a joke Jun 19 14:05:00 The group were being very, erm, brave when they tried clutterizing everything. That's why everything is so fudged, because it was effectively a complete rejig. Jun 19 14:05:01 DocScrutinizer, the disconnect between the saying and doing kills me Jun 19 14:05:12 I'm suprised they did as much as they did ... Jun 19 14:05:14 GAN900: *nod* Jun 19 14:05:22 Stskeeps: But I absolutely insist that "breaks randomly" describes Maemo5 well Jun 19 14:05:26 the response to attempts at participation from Maemo people isn't even vaguely encouraging. Jun 19 14:05:47 They should however, at least bought ALL apps to the ssame level, PDF reader is a bloody joke. Jun 19 14:05:57 alterego: and it is not even clear why they did that thing with clutter Jun 19 14:06:15 one PDF at a time is weird Jun 19 14:06:18 evince is nice Jun 19 14:06:51 there are actually things i cannot effectively do in that pdf reader Jun 19 14:07:24 like read my university assignment from one PDF while looking at the formula sheet, which is a separate file Jun 19 14:08:11 RST38h: i don't really have the energy to discuss with you, nothing constructive ever comes out of those discussions, only bile, no initative. Jun 19 14:08:15 BCMM: at least the default one respects encryption and refuses to display e.g. the N900 schematics ;-P While evince displays nicely Jun 19 14:08:39 DocScrutinizer: oh, PDF "encryption" is such a joke... Jun 19 14:09:55 RST38h: eye candy :P it was probably their road before meego took form. m5 was already pretty much done this time last year for instance. Jun 19 14:10:28 i use Okular on the desktop, which has a nice checkbox in the configuration "Obey DRM limitations" Jun 19 14:10:39 Heh Jun 19 14:10:45 Does anybody know how to make the file-chooser of the user interface access the internal filesystem (e.g. "/home/user")? Jun 19 14:11:11 actually, i think there is actual encryption for PDFs, and there is also a series of "don't do this" flags, which people typically pretend is also a type of encryption Jun 19 14:11:23 BCMM: (multiple open pdf's) another attempt to implement properties on app level that the devels thought were wrong in OS. Here it's the winmobile concept of "one app wit one project at any time" Jun 19 14:11:25 the latter being the one people actually use Jun 19 14:11:44 BCMM: cool, I never realized this checkbox :-) Jun 19 14:11:58 PDF DRM is so, so, stupid Jun 19 14:12:02 BCMM: other prominent examples are tracker implementing a shadow filesystem, as the original isn't good enough Jun 19 14:12:43 and so many people seem to believe it is technically possible to "encrypt" something in such a way that you can decrypt and view it, but not decrypt and print it Jun 19 14:12:55 Hmm, I remember having trouble to exit Open Arena and Quake 3, how is it that I do that? Jun 19 14:12:59 DocScrutinizer: i don't know what "tracker" and "shadow filesystem" mean Jun 19 14:13:50 BCMM: nevermind, was random rant addressed to Nokia-unknown and rather unrelated to your point Jun 19 14:14:10 Dunno if this is a stupid question, but isn't it possible for Nokia to port N-Gage to n900? Jun 19 14:14:16 aww, was kind of interested Jun 19 14:14:19 http://www.n-gage.com/ Jun 19 14:14:24 I thought n-gage was dead.. Jun 19 14:14:40 Dunno about that. Jun 19 14:14:47 Still games out there, and n97 got n-gage Jun 19 14:15:28 n-gage is now an application? Jun 19 14:15:41 BCMM: ok: Nokia's latest recommendations are suggestion every app registers every file created at tracker (aka indexer), so we basically get two independent filesystems - the real fs tree and the tracker database Jun 19 14:15:44 To download the N-Gage application, select your device below. You will be directed to a download page, where you will find instructions on how to install the N-Gage application onto your device. Support for additional N-Gage compatible devices is coming soon. Jun 19 14:15:58 BCMM: Seems like it. Jun 19 14:15:59 BCMM, dev kit and brand more like Jun 19 14:19:04 BCMM: the "hiding the OS" (what a strange take on that) is another example. If I'm unhappy with the user being even just able to *see* files/dirs in / then there for sure are better ways to cope with that than to cripple the systemwide fileselector lib so you think you're on a windoze shitsysem with drive letters Jun 19 14:20:14 Hi ! Jun 19 14:20:42 lo Khertan Jun 19 14:21:01 moo Khertan Jun 19 14:21:44 DocScrutinizer: yeah, it's a bit strange Jun 19 14:21:45 I ve a question ... i'm trying to implement syntax checking by using pylint on KhtEditor ... but i didn't say any way to display information without eating too many space on source view ... any idea ? Jun 19 14:21:51 lo Stskeeps Jun 19 14:21:55 moo RST38h Jun 19 14:22:10 DocScrutinizer: i kind of understand them doing things like renaming DCIM to Images Jun 19 14:22:21 but i guess that could've been done with symlinks Jun 19 14:22:41 yes, for sure. but even for this there's generic means like symlinks and dunnowhat Jun 19 14:22:51 exactly :-D Jun 19 14:22:53 they do it the symbian way Jun 19 14:23:13 laid off symbian people came to maemo devices and made 'em do it all the symbian way Jun 19 14:23:33 the file selection dialog, the directory names, the dialogs, the release schedule Jun 19 14:23:48 and that's extremely odd. They always try to mimic inferior OS and GUI instead of exploiting the genuine strengths of Linux Jun 19 14:24:04 Symbian is not inferior in any way Jun 19 14:24:12 Symbian is not inferior in any way <<< it is :) Jun 19 14:24:13 It has just been designed for a different usage scenario Jun 19 14:24:16 DocScrutinizer: actually, it is a slightly interesting problem - they're obviously trying to prevent windows people saving stuff where they can't read it over MSC Jun 19 14:24:18 well, to some extent it is Jun 19 14:24:48 Symbian/S60 has been designed for using it with a traditional portrait-oriented phone, with a physical keypad and no touchscreen Jun 19 14:24:52 Does anybody know how to deal with "$MYDOCSDIR"? Jun 19 14:24:55 DocScrutinizer: and mounting and symlinks are familiar concepts to me, but actually slightly difficult concepts if you haven't met them before Jun 19 14:24:58 That is where it excels Jun 19 14:25:02 But they let windows people deleting the wrong file due to hiding extension :) Jun 19 14:25:05 RST38h: ack Jun 19 14:25:28 Attempts to shoehorn Symbian/S60 onto touchscreen devices have been somewhat awkward Jun 19 14:25:37 Although I have to admit that 5800 works well Jun 19 14:25:49 BCMM: yep, and who ever heard of ACL Jun 19 14:26:31 DocScrutinizer: i'm not quite sure how they are relevant Jun 19 14:26:49 e.g. to "hide OS from user" Jun 19 14:27:15 hello maemites Jun 19 14:27:33 i certainly don't mind the file open dialog only showing the home dir Jun 19 14:27:40 BCMM: if you really feel you have to do that Jun 19 14:27:40 (in terms of hiding the OS) Jun 19 14:28:17 since UI stuff shouldn't have permission to write outside there anyway Jun 19 14:28:22 BCMM: it doesn't (show ~) Jun 19 14:29:14 BCMM: and the perms are exactly the point. If user can't write / delete there anyway, why stop him from reading there then? Jun 19 14:29:29 EVEN HIS OWN HOME!!! Jun 19 14:30:17 not being able to use UI stuff in ~/ is really annoying Jun 19 14:30:44 the best solution would be to make Windows support a proper filesystem on mass-storage devices Jun 19 14:30:51 Jun 19 14:31:00 that's like my landlord explains to me in my flat here's all the megacritical infrastruct I shouldn't touch and I have to keep out of there and camp in a tent on the lawn Jun 19 14:31:17 Hi all Jun 19 14:31:29 рун пгныб ыршебб щл цфше вгттщ рщц ещ ыцшеср ершы щаабб Jun 19 14:31:37 aaayes Jun 19 14:32:00 ok Jun 19 14:32:16 right Jun 19 14:32:25 Mece: döösbaddl Jun 19 14:32:29 that wasn't even proper russian Jun 19 14:32:46 I wonder if one who can understand cyrillic letters can read that as english.. Jun 19 14:32:59 well, i understand cyrylic Jun 19 14:33:19 but russian keyboard layout is different to english Jun 19 14:33:25 DocScrutinizer: i wonder whether it would be feasible to create a modified vfat driver that stores POSIX permissions and so on in a file Jun 19 14:33:30 BCMM: well, this is my MYDOCSDIR problem... Jun 19 14:33:31 jacekowski, ah yes. Jun 19 14:33:33 DocScrutinizer: i mean, feasible in terms of performance Jun 19 14:33:57 and some letters are read differently Jun 19 14:34:12 is there a good scratchbox2 ubuntu tutorial? Jun 19 14:34:14 DocScrutinizer: how do I make different directories visible in the filesystem browser widget? Jun 19 14:34:31 jacekowski, I'm working on getting qlister to work with russian and other languages with different letters than mine. Jun 19 14:34:33 after installing sb2 doesnt seems to install arm-gcc compiler Jun 19 14:34:34 b is read like v Jun 19 14:34:36 kW_: screwit Jun 19 14:34:51 p is read like r Jun 19 14:34:55 kW_: make a symlink to a better dir name Jun 19 14:34:56 and couple more Jun 19 14:35:03 in a better location Jun 19 14:35:05 DocScrutinizer: oh, symlinks work there? Jun 19 14:35:11 DocScrutinizer: gah, i was about to ask if the file browser supports symlinks... Jun 19 14:35:22 DocScrutinizer: oh, somebody did say that Jun 19 14:35:31 vfat doesn't have symlinks Jun 19 14:35:43 DocScrutinizer: well, I cannot create a symlink in a vfat directory, can I? Jun 19 14:36:03 hmm, I bindmount / to ~/MyDocs/MyRoot Jun 19 14:36:06 well, you can Jun 19 14:36:10 works for me Jun 19 14:36:25 i mean there is patch for it Jun 19 14:36:34 now in finally know what bindmount does that symlinks don't... Jun 19 14:36:34 but i think it never went upstream to vanilia Jun 19 14:37:00 BCMM: symlinks can be detected and are annoying Jun 19 14:37:00 though I always thought even windows2000 had symlinks. otoh that's NTFS, not VFAT Jun 19 14:37:09 jacekowski: implemented as .lnks? Jun 19 14:37:13 tbh I rarely ever touch VFAT Jun 19 14:37:19 DocScrutinizer: yeah, you can't do it on fat32 Jun 19 14:37:28 BCMM: yes Jun 19 14:37:50 DocScrutinizer: as far as i know ntfs only supports COW symlinks Jun 19 14:38:02 jacekowski: thing is, there is no way to do a cross-filesystem link that makes sense on both linux and windows Jun 19 14:38:23 well, it's completly different fs design Jun 19 14:38:41 it's like zfs on linux Jun 19 14:38:50 you can use it with fuse Jun 19 14:38:56 is there even a way to use ntfs symlinks from windows? Jun 19 14:39:04 well at least I heard you *could* teach VFAT to know about unix permissions Jun 19 14:39:15 doesn't it do a bunch of stuff windows doesn't actually use, like case sensitivity? Jun 19 14:39:16 UMSDOS? Jun 19 14:39:35 BCMM: well, it's used a lot on server windows Jun 19 14:39:44 BCMM: for doing stuff like deduplication Jun 19 14:40:12 christ, there are still windows servers... Jun 19 14:40:40 there are things that linux can't do Jun 19 14:40:48 well, "/ /home/user/MyDocs/root none bind" in /etc/fstab worked Jun 19 14:40:50 AD for example Jun 19 14:41:14 kW_: well fstab will be gone as soon as you reboot Jun 19 14:41:45 jacekowski: what is AD? Jun 19 14:41:48 kW_: need to patch init scripts Jun 19 14:42:05 to have additional mounts Jun 19 14:42:18 I did already patch the initscripts (e.g. to not recreate /etc/fstab) Jun 19 14:42:24 or to make fstab persistent :-P Jun 19 14:42:41 hehe, exactly Jun 19 14:42:44 fstab gets clobbered on reboot? Jun 19 14:42:51 yep :-/ Jun 19 14:42:56 why? Jun 19 14:43:02 ask Nokia Jun 19 14:43:08 Nokia: why Jun 19 14:43:17 hehe Jun 19 14:43:18 oh, they aren't in here... Jun 19 14:43:21 because fstab is bad Jun 19 14:43:46 it's old thing that remembers time when system had disks that never changed Jun 19 14:44:33 BCMM: another ncarnation of maemo hijacking the whole linux and then reinventing the original things in a crippled manner for user to cope with it Jun 19 14:44:48 could be worse, could be android... Jun 19 14:44:55 yep Jun 19 14:45:11 well, fstab is designed in that way that it does _not_ interfere with dynamic mounts... Jun 19 14:46:15 jacekowski: yeah, the disks in my N900 change every 10 minutes Jun 19 14:46:54 ah, but this will all change when USB host changes everything! Jun 19 14:47:28 even compared to my laptop where I *never* get any new disks Jun 19 14:48:19 so for my laptop a static fstab is sane, while N900 obviously should regenerate it dynamically on file open() Jun 19 14:49:23 are you being sarcastic now? Jun 19 14:49:31 ooh sorry Jun 19 14:49:47 Jun 19 14:50:37 n900 effectively contains a whole rack of audio / video gear, compared to 1987 or so Jun 19 14:50:40 :D Jun 19 14:50:56 /scratchbox/compilers/arm-gcc-3.3.4-glibc-2.3.2/bin/arm-linux-gcc Jun 19 14:51:01 what if this doesnt exist Jun 19 14:52:02 then it doesn't suffer Jun 19 14:52:29 seems Nokia has a massive problem of clash between NIH and using a FOSS OS Jun 19 14:52:54 why? Jun 19 14:53:22 yeah why? because they never really got it what FOSS is all about? Jun 19 14:57:01 SD69 is such a classy dude. Jun 19 14:57:22 /whois SD69 Jun 19 14:57:55 http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=721673#post721673 Jun 19 14:58:02 Some Talk joker. Jun 19 14:58:36 DocScrutinizer: do you happen to recall the URL of that pulseaudio - phone writeup? Jun 19 14:58:48 DocScrutinizer: the 5ms thing Jun 19 14:58:52 sure Jun 19 14:58:58 the pdf? Jun 19 14:59:01 yes Jun 19 14:59:05 mompls Jun 19 14:59:10 I seem to have forgotten to bookmark it. Jun 19 15:00:03 http://linuxplumbersconf.org/2009/slides/Jyri-Sarha-audio_miniconf_slides.pdf should be the gem Jun 19 15:00:09 Thanks! Jun 19 15:00:33 *damn* the laughter starts again Jun 19 15:01:30 Currently trying to understand the audio hardware to writeup a FAQ on it. Jun 19 15:02:27 Well - a QITPSABDAJUP Jun 19 15:02:49 Questions I think people should ask, but don't, and just use pulseaudio. Jun 19 15:04:00 does anyone know where skype saves the contact pictures on the n900 Jun 19 15:04:29 SpeedEvil: please reserve a special section "angry rants by DocScrutinizer" for me ;-D Jun 19 15:07:51 first entry in there: <32PT, bold> WHY NEEDS PA TO KNOW ABOUT GSM OTA PACKET RATE AND TIME ADVANCE? Jun 19 15:08:32 I don't quite think that's referring to that. Jun 19 15:09:01 If my skim of it is correct, that's responding to 'queue near empty/full' messages from the GSM modems audio FIFO Jun 19 15:09:03 err? not? Jun 19 15:09:43 DocScrutinizer: measure latency? Jun 19 15:09:57 PA uses that a fair bit Jun 19 15:10:43 GSM and 3G audio frame size is 20 ms Jun 19 15:10:44 Cellular frame timing is ruled by base station Jun 19 15:10:46 Timing of 20ms frames change in cellular hand over Jun 19 15:10:56 if that's not OTA, then I dunno Jun 19 15:11:41 yes, but TA is a perspective on how long it takes to reach base station Jun 19 15:11:58 Synchronize up link audio buering with Cellular Modem Jun 19 15:12:00  Cellular Modem sends up-link timing adjustment messages Jun 19 15:12:01  Align up-link buering according to messages Jun 19 15:13:00 that's so completely and exactly just missing the point Jun 19 15:13:30 the call quality is quite nice on n900 though Jun 19 15:13:31 I never seen or heard of a tech spec that made me laugh more Jun 19 15:13:59 write something better then? Jun 19 15:14:33 so does anyone know where to contact pictures from skype im accounts get saved on the n900? (I want set one phone contact to the skype pic since it's merged and has several IM users and the other pics suck :P) Jun 19 15:14:46 Stskeeps: sure, but it was as well without modem introducing irrelevant parameters to audio subsystem to tune some buffers to something they don't relate to in any way whatsoever Jun 19 15:15:31 and i can't stand it when the pic changes everytime i log on the im services depending on wich one connects first Jun 19 15:15:32 DocScrutinizer: maybe you don't see the whole picture then? either way, is that fremantle or future stiff? Jun 19 15:15:38 stuff Jun 19 15:16:10 Stskeeps: PA needs to measure latency from speaker audio sink to mic audio source, to calibrate AEC. That's *completely unrelated* to whatever is going on at the GSM side though Jun 19 15:16:25 demand open phone-CPU! Jun 19 15:16:38 <.< Jun 19 15:17:09 DocScrutinizer: right, but it should be synchronised with whats being sent out on gsm for power saving/avoiding cutouts/etc? Jun 19 15:17:31 Stskeeps: I think I'm well capable of seeing the whole picture, and that is fremantle stuff Jun 19 15:17:56 k Jun 19 15:18:23 Stskeeps: nonsense. The GSM audio stream is transparent to whatever the audio interface from modem to outside world might be Jun 19 15:18:45 mmkay Jun 19 15:18:48 is N900 850 or 900? Jun 19 15:18:57 there's simply nothing to reasonably sync or adjust to Jun 19 15:19:00 DocScrutinizer: mail the guy and discuss Jun 19 15:19:12 first.lastname@nokia.com Jun 19 15:19:25 hmm, what's that worth for? Jun 19 15:19:33 ... Jun 19 15:19:47 make him feel bad? make me feel bad? make Nokia think about it? Jun 19 15:19:56 well, whats the point of moaning about something if you don't want to discuss it? Jun 19 15:20:00 luke-jr: 900 Jun 19 15:20:04 lame Jun 19 15:20:22 Nokia should have made N900 quad-band with open phone-side firmware Jun 19 15:20:23 or maybe figuring out if there is a reason for those things Jun 19 15:20:30 so I could mod it to talk CDMA <.< Jun 19 15:21:12 Stskeeps: well, that's maybe a valid point. If only it were "that's been the specs I got, so I implemented it that way" Jun 19 15:21:48 I think the gsm radio is quad band and the 3g is triband.. Jun 19 15:21:49 Stskeeps: what - i suspect - is exactly the way it happened Jun 19 15:22:14 DocScrutinizer: cost of implementing something like that is too big for it being for no reason. Jun 19 15:22:17 luke-jr: people in the usa should've got their mobile phones "The Right Way" (tm), so that all of the carriers would use the same system Jun 19 15:22:25 ShadowJK: thats basically the case with all 3G radios AFAIK Jun 19 15:22:31 ShadowJK: I thought they used the same radio, but 3G required the 850/900 frequency? Jun 19 15:22:44 arachnist: they do. all CDMA Jun 19 15:22:54 Termana, no I have a phone with quad band gsm and single-band 3g too :P Jun 19 15:23:16 ShadowJK: :P I just meant with having quad band gsm heh Jun 19 15:23:28 ah Jun 19 15:24:16 Termana: I know of a phone with 3band GSM - it's called errrr... Freerunner Jun 19 15:24:43 arachnist: AT&T has some limited 3G coverage, admittedly, but N900 doesn't support it Jun 19 15:24:51 arachnist: everything else here is CDMA Jun 19 15:25:00 DocScrutinizer: Right, but that doesn't have 3G, thats GSM only :P So my statement still holds true Jun 19 15:25:20 ok Jun 19 15:25:36 luke-jr: well, if you would've used what is being used in the europe, there would be no problem ;) Jun 19 15:26:56 well.. Jun 19 15:27:01 It's not entirely consistent in europe either Jun 19 15:27:13 Although the triband 3g in N900 does cover all of europe Jun 19 15:27:14 problem 1: CDMA in USA, only few GSM networks. Problem 2 in USA: Carriers decide to use frequencies dedicated to GSM and run UMTS on them Jun 19 15:27:25 DocScrutinizer: speaking of the Freerunner, do you know if the *BSD on Freerunner efforts got any further than has been documented on the openmoko wiki? Jun 19 15:27:44 no idea, sorry Jun 19 15:28:25 luke-jr: I have a solution for you Jun 19 15:28:25 Termana: //join #openmoko(-cdevel) and ask there Jun 19 15:29:02 DocScrutinizer: will do :) cheers. (probably tomorrow, bout to go to bed :P) Jun 19 15:29:19 luke-jr: move. Problem fixed. Jun 19 15:29:48 Or use t-mobile Jun 19 15:33:00 The external speaker makes a noise every time the screen is touched pr 1.2 is there a fix or an option i'm missing? Jun 19 15:33:37 sure its not just the vibra? Jun 19 15:34:16 I'll disable and see Jun 19 15:34:17 ts-click is an audio event, so it's not just vibra Jun 19 15:35:06 Vibrate was off Jun 19 15:35:06 in settings there is a level0..2 setting for those clicks Jun 19 15:35:09 true Jun 19 15:35:42 yigal: yes, but settings - display - touch screen vibration? Jun 19 15:35:42 All sounds are off as far as I'm aware? Jun 19 15:35:47 keyboark click, touchscreen click, system signals, whatnot... Jun 19 15:36:14 keyboark is nice (adding to spellchecker) Jun 19 15:36:42 too verbose. Jun 19 15:36:49 The term should clearly be keybark. Jun 19 15:36:55 Stskeeps: ty, that was it Jun 19 15:38:41 see how hard my life as EE can get? I'd never figure anybody could think of vibrator as a speaker output Jun 19 15:42:38 why do the ringtones on the n900 get reset everytime the battery dies? Jun 19 15:43:08 I put more ring tones in the regular directory and selected one in profile -but it doesn't stick Jun 19 15:43:47 Also, I'm not sure it works when connected as 'mass storage' because it can't access ./MyDocs Jun 19 15:43:50 I think my favorite thread at the moment is the miss-steps thread, it's been a really good one, high quality posts and a lot of reasonable information, seems to even be creating some good progress. Jun 19 15:45:40 SpeedEvil: (interrupts from audio, 1000?/s) see >> Do block transfers to McBSP2 1280 word buffer<< Jun 19 15:47:22 thanks Jun 19 15:47:54 SpeedEvil: (rant / questions) what is the rationale behind bothering about 5ms latency vs 20ms, when the OTA has a RTT of *at least* 200ms? Jun 19 15:48:14 to avoid clicks on buffer over/underruns Jun 19 15:48:50 After successfully pairing the N900 with a headset device, or my car's Bluetooth, I am able to initiate and receive calls, however any of the audio from the call is not transmitted to the paired device. Jun 19 15:48:50 SpeedEvil: hypothesis: requirement specs said "keep latency as low as possible" where they should have s/possible/reasonable/ Jun 19 15:49:08 shorter, don't let the battery die. it looses capacity Jun 19 15:49:16 This started happening after I tried streaming music over bluetooth... Jun 19 15:49:29 any idea why? Jun 19 15:49:30 possible. Jun 19 15:50:05 pexi, how easily? Jun 19 15:50:13 It has died like 4 times already Jun 19 15:50:26 how powerful is it compared to other smart phone's batteries? Jun 19 15:50:51 shorter: my ringtone is sticky, and it is converted to a .wav that lives in some ~/.* folder. So umount MyDocs won't matter Jun 19 15:51:34 well, lion batteries don't like when they get fully discharged, but i donno what kind of smart protection system n900 has Jun 19 15:51:45 DocScrutinizer is it better than if I leave it in mp3? Jun 19 15:52:15 pexi, the battery seems to die almost immediately after the status bar shows any red Jun 19 15:52:30 shorter: the settings 'app' does that converting job in background, you don't need to cope with it Jun 19 15:52:50 why does mine get reset to a default ringer? Jun 19 15:52:58 My battery lasts a few hours after the meter goes red Jun 19 15:53:00 dunno Jun 19 15:53:02 (in idle) Jun 19 15:53:08 I'm not sure about any mounting issue, but the battery dying definitely does it Jun 19 15:53:11 ShadowJK: same here Jun 19 15:53:29 would that health program tell me if there is something wrong with my battery? Jun 19 15:53:32 60min *with screen backlight at 100%* Jun 19 15:53:50 arachnist: true, but Europe has a tendency to be retarded; can't blame people for being skeptical :) Jun 19 15:53:56 pexi, I would say N900's shutdown thresholds are fine as long as you recharge it the same day after running it "dead" Jun 19 15:54:03 arachnist: in any case, 3G GSM didn't exist when CDMA was being deployed here Jun 19 15:54:10 furthermore, ps -A shows an awefully lot of stuff running, despite the fact that they don't use any cpu most of the time, it seems it might still be running downt he battery a lot Jun 19 15:54:17 ShadowJK, ok, good to know Jun 19 15:54:33 SpeedEvil: how would reducing the buffer size from 20ms to 5ms avoid any clicking/dropouts? Jun 19 15:54:46 Termana: I cannot legally leave Nebraska. If you have an idea for amnesty somewhere else, including travel arrangements without passports, please let me know. Jun 19 15:54:52 Termana: also, no T-Mobile in Nebraksa Jun 19 15:55:01 SpeedEvil: or buffer over/underruns Jun 19 15:55:18 SpeedEvil: more the opposite is true Jun 19 15:55:39 SpeedEvil: the smaller the bufer, the more likely you get OF/UF Jun 19 15:56:24 Termana: also, "somewhere else" would need to be an improvement over NE :P Jun 19 15:56:27 shorter, well, generally speaking powertop is more useful for finding out what's killing standby time.. also, the facebook widget is well known for sucking batteries empty in no time Jun 19 15:56:39 Although powertop was removed from later firmware images :( Jun 19 15:57:19 I guess we can probably unsticky the brainstorm threads. . . . Jun 19 15:57:44 luke-jr: why can't you legally leave nebraska, out of curiousity? Jun 19 15:58:17 Stskeeps: this State is getting close to a dictatorship Jun 19 15:58:24 luke-jr: .. practical reaons Jun 19 15:58:25 reasons Jun 19 15:58:26 I've noticed that my N900 charger is one of those brutish ones that are quite hard to push in and release, my usb cables are all fine though. what shojuld I do? Jun 19 15:58:38 Stskeeps: my wife has a mental illness Jun 19 15:58:58 Stskeeps: in Nebraska, that is basically grounds for them to claim custody of our children Jun 19 15:59:03 is there any way to retrieve the media player widget if i uninstalled it? Jun 19 15:59:06 ok, but have they? Jun 19 15:59:20 yes, as soon as feds gave them jurisdiction (6 months after we moved here) Jun 19 15:59:26 Legal separation allows me to regain my own custody alone Jun 19 15:59:28 but Jun 19 15:59:45 in NE, legal separation also means you need court permission to leave the state Jun 19 16:00:31 so, when kids are 18, you can leave the state? Jun 19 16:00:32 :P Jun 19 16:00:36 ... Jun 19 16:00:56 by that time, Nebraska will hopefully no longer exist Jun 19 16:01:10 alterego: be carefull on inserting/retracting the USB plug. It will wear and get more easy/gentle after a few 1000 rounds Jun 19 16:01:31 can bar showing connections, batterylife, and misc widgets become full? Jun 19 16:01:51 ...I'm asking because I installed some more (tor) that take up space in there, and now my flashlight app disappeared Jun 19 16:01:59 my lawyer is helping me get court permission to leave the state Jun 19 16:02:11 but my wife's guardian ad litem is likely to try to object somehow Jun 19 16:02:26 and you can't be guardian of your wife? :P Jun 19 16:02:35 Stskeeps: potentially, if she had a legal guardian Jun 19 16:02:53 mmkay Jun 19 16:02:56 guardian ad litem is a lawyer that second-guesses her in this specific court case more or less Jun 19 16:03:03 she has her own lawyer that represents her Jun 19 16:03:33 what's the name of media player widget package?? i want to apt-get it???? Jun 19 16:03:34 next question is if you knew of this problem before getting married and having children.. Jun 19 16:03:46 Stskeeps: nope, kinda irrelevant tho Jun 19 16:03:54 we didn't live in Nebraska then, either Jun 19 16:04:02 I was a fool to not look up the laws here first I guess Jun 19 16:04:04 heh Jun 19 16:05:06 Stskeeps: the problem didn't really manifest until our 2nd was born Jun 19 16:05:27 triggered more or less by post-partum depression Jun 19 16:05:39 so she didn't have a legal guardian by the time you got married? Jun 19 16:05:43 she still doesn't. Jun 19 16:05:49 mmkay Jun 19 16:05:50 guardian != guardian ad litem Jun 19 16:06:13 the GAL can *only* second guess her in regards to the specific court case involving the children Jun 19 16:06:38 then again, that should apply for a lot of people, since that can't be a uncommon problem. Jun 19 16:07:03 triggered by post-partum, not simply post-partum :) Jun 19 16:07:08 someone help me for the love of god@@@ Jun 19 16:07:09 bi-polar Jun 19 16:07:31 anyhow, I have to run Jun 19 16:07:39 gonna be late for lunch Jun 19 16:07:40 <.< Jun 19 16:10:29 are there any app for locking/showing clock when your phone is locked. so you can watch just the time rather than 'logging in' Jun 19 16:10:56 pexi: tap the top button Jun 19 16:12:01 and can I lock this manually? Jun 19 16:12:03 :) Jun 19 16:12:18 I really don't like using this as a phone Jun 19 16:12:19 :) Jun 19 16:14:22 SpeedEvil: the paper mentiones "simple bufering would add... 20ms latency [so we invent a weird scheme to get that down to 5ms]". 15ms difference in latency correspond to the delay caused by 5m distance from the phone in speaker mode. Would anybody care about the *latency* introduced into a phonecall by a 5m distance from speaker/mic to user? Jun 19 16:26:57 how should I get powertop then ShadowJK? Jun 19 16:27:52 shorter: maybe google will find a .deb to download somewhere Jun 19 16:28:11 DocScrutinizer, what softare do you recommend to figure out what is costing the most power? Jun 19 16:28:22 powertop Jun 19 16:28:55 as for now speedevil's more tailored-to-the-device aproach isn't complete yet Jun 19 16:30:46 heh, i forgot how speedy Diablo on N8x0 actually felt at times Jun 19 16:33:08 indeed :-) Jun 19 16:34:27 anyone here use googlevoice? Jun 19 16:36:00 shorter: http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=491333#post491333 Jun 19 16:36:27 hi, is there some program for the n900 where I can mark a place on a map, then go there later? I've looked at Maep and Maps but they both seem to lack the ability to save a location Jun 19 16:36:30 lol, reading that as we speak Jun 19 16:36:51 i think mappero Jun 19 16:37:08 hpbox: Mappero Jun 19 16:37:19 thanks I'll check it out Jun 19 16:37:26 btw I think I found a bug in Maps Jun 19 16:37:35 file a bug report then Jun 19 16:37:39 this isn't the place to report it I guess .. Jun 19 16:37:43 will do thank you Jun 19 16:37:49 no, needs to go to bug tracker Jun 19 17:08:28 yea theres this one program to mark where your car is so you can go back to it Jun 19 17:08:31 sure it work son gps Jun 19 17:09:51 Where can i download transmission? Jun 19 17:10:09 yigal: the internet Jun 19 17:10:10 its in the repos Jun 19 17:11:20 ham5: devel repos? Jun 19 17:14:11 or testing Jun 19 17:41:53 Hello! Does anybody know where received SMS messages are stored? Jun 19 17:42:15 kW_: in a database Jun 19 17:42:22 kw: sqlite Jun 19 17:42:26 conversations Jun 19 17:43:32 kW_, at this link you'll find where that db is.. and other things: http://blogs.sans.org/computer-forensics/2010/03/17/nokia-n900-forensic-cheat-sheet/ Jun 19 17:44:40 kW_: /home/user/.rtcom-eventlogger/el.db Jun 19 17:45:38 thank you :-) Jun 19 17:45:48 did anybody of you try out phone calls over SIP over WLAN on the N900 Jun 19 17:45:49 ? Jun 19 17:46:14 But another matter: Does anyone know how IM & Skype servers handle beeing logged in to the same account via your PC and maemo? I.e. can I log into the same skype account from my PC and my n900? Jun 19 17:46:36 teilzeitstudent I just did that Jun 19 17:46:44 you get the msgs on both devices then Jun 19 17:46:58 if you type on your pc you get your own msg on the n900 then too and vice versa Jun 19 17:47:11 merlin1991, ah nice. Do you know what happens when you get a call? Jun 19 17:47:19 didn't try that :) Jun 19 17:47:37 kW_: sure Jun 19 17:47:39 Alright thanks Jun 19 17:48:06 kW_: my ISP's modems provide specific wifi networks I can connect to to call with Jun 19 17:48:19 Then I just need to somehow link a cellphone call to skype to make a conference call :p Jun 19 17:48:20 kW_: so I've got wifi networks all around the country I can use to call with Jun 19 17:49:29 teilzeitstudent: yes, you can be logged to one account from multiple location Jun 19 17:50:20 merlin1991: all logged-in clients will ring, when you pick up on one device, the others will show "missed call from" Jun 19 17:53:57 crashanddie: well, the voice quality seems to be skippy in my first attempt Jun 19 17:54:11 then it's your network Jun 19 17:54:14 crashanddie, thats actually smarter than I expected it to be. Jun 19 17:54:36 I've been using Skype and SIP all over the world, usually continents apart, never had issues unless due to networking problems Jun 19 17:54:58 and Skype/SIP usually works better than HTTP, because of QoS Jun 19 17:55:40 crashanddie: well, it is a local WLAN Jun 19 17:55:55 and? Jun 19 17:56:08 skype seems to work fine for me Jun 19 17:56:20 kW_: it being local doesn't mean it's good... Jun 19 17:56:20 even over 3G Jun 19 17:56:24 crashanddie: but what _is_ skippy is actually the WLAN of the N900, I get ping round-trip times in the 100eds of milliseconds Jun 19 17:56:55 compared to less than 10ms when using the laptop... then on the WLAN-side, something is probably wrong Jun 19 17:56:55 i get 200ms+ over tmob Jun 19 17:57:03 skype seems fine Jun 19 17:57:15 maybe a little longer of a slight delay Jun 19 17:57:28 kW_: you could have a stupid router that doesn't play nice with the Power Saving features of the N900, you could have it configured on on the same channel as everyone on your building (channel 6 or 12, by any chance?), resulting in crappy network performance Jun 19 17:57:44 kW_: millions of people are using skype and SIP just fine, don't toss it because you can't diagnostic it, thanks Jun 19 17:57:48 going for food, later all Jun 19 17:57:58 Pretty much every router I've ever used falls under this "stupid router" category. Jun 19 17:58:59 well, my router is actually doing fine with any other WLAN device in the vicinity Jun 19 17:59:17 Yes, but they're not trying the N900's aggressive power saving. Jun 19 17:59:45 what's so special about the n900 power saving? Jun 19 18:00:13 It tries to coordinate things so that the radio is only on during a small, predefined interval, and the AP knows to send data during that interval. Jun 19 18:01:16 Except when the AP doesn't know, or is out of sync, that means it has to re-transmit things until it gets lucky enough to send it during the interval the N900 radio is on. Jun 19 18:01:54 well, which ping-times over WLAN do you achieve with your n900? Jun 19 18:02:40 kW_: as low as for my laptop Jun 19 18:03:06 not to mention that cheapie wlan aps work quite interestingly very often Jun 19 18:03:33 typically they work in a way that's easiest to implement, no matter if it's according to spec or not :) Jun 19 18:03:55 wlan iop is very tricky thing Jun 19 18:04:33 Ikarus: well, give a number :-) Jun 19 18:04:41 kW_: under 10ms Jun 19 18:04:49 kW_: depending of other traffic Jun 19 18:04:57 (collisions and all that) Jun 19 18:05:02 rtt min/avg/max/mdev = 48.572/173.105/317.873/78.585 ms Jun 19 18:05:06 (17 packets) Jun 19 18:05:08 1 second interval Jun 19 18:05:32 rtt min/avg/max/mdev = 2.661/99.701/219.985/39.648 ms Jun 19 18:05:34 so the average is 173ms? Jun 19 18:05:35 .1 second interval Jun 19 18:05:46 yes Jun 19 18:05:52 I get "rtt min/avg/max/mdev = 3.066/209.707/591.759/147.563 ms" Jun 19 18:06:17 ShadowJK: well, that's still slow in your case Jun 19 18:06:22 hey.. anyone else havin problems with zoutube? Jun 19 18:07:15 Ikarus: what is the output of "ping -c 10 192.168.0.53 | tail -n 1" where "192.168.0.53" is the IP address of your N900? Jun 19 18:07:42 kW_: depends on where I run it from (laptop or desktop) Jun 19 18:08:41 Ikarus: well, run it from both ;-) (or choose any device, just make sure it goes over WLAN) Jun 19 18:08:57 kwrtt min/avg/max/mdev = 95.158/251.043/456.854/118.766 ms Jun 19 18:09:06 tjhat's with powersave on Jun 19 18:09:18 with powersave off, it is some 10ms IIRC Jun 19 18:09:42 where can I change the powersave settings? Jun 19 18:10:04 well, 450ms jitter is probably too much for SIP... Jun 19 18:10:16 SpeedEvil, Hi, about the audio discussion on maemo-developers as expected nothing useful (nothing technical) came out. just that I'm barking on the wrong tree and engaging in long diatribes :) Jun 19 18:10:51 the long diatribe is not helpful Jun 19 18:10:57 generally Jun 19 18:11:13 kW_: it gets better if you use the net intensively Jun 19 18:12:12 SpeedEvil, I know but some background to explain everything is needed. I just have the feeling that when it comes ot audio very little people are knowledgable. they know that the media player plays an audio and sends pcm data to the audio card but then it ends there. Jun 19 18:12:12 SpeedEvil: well, I use it as intensively as necessary to do SIP calls... Jun 19 18:12:43 infobot: powersave is a wireless power saving technology that keeps the radio off much of the time to save power. You enable or disable this by selecting settings->internet connections, then carry on through the connection settings to the end, clicking 'next' till you get to 'advanced' - where you can set powersaving settings. Jun 19 18:12:44 ...but powersave is already something else... Jun 19 18:12:48 * SpeedEvil sighs. Jun 19 18:13:02 ~powersave Jun 19 18:13:02 setterm -powersave waste Jun 19 18:13:13 ~forget powersave Jun 19 18:13:50 infobot: no, powersave is a wireless power saving technology that keeps the radio off much of the time to save power. You enable or disable this by selecting settings->internet connections, then carry on through the connection settings to the end, clicking 'next' till you get to 'advanced' - where you can set powersaving settings. Jun 19 18:13:51 okay, SpeedEvil Jun 19 18:13:55 ~powersave Jun 19 18:13:56 hmm... powersave is a wireless power saving technology that keeps the radio off much of the time to save power. You enable or disable this by selecting settings->internet connections, then carry on through the connection settings to the end, clicking 'next' till you get to 'advanced' - where you can set powersaving settings. Jun 19 18:14:21 SpeedEvil: also explain what the settings do Jun 19 18:14:29 does anyone experience occasional audio dropouts (clicks,skips,pops), for example during mp3 playbacks, video playback VOIP apps etc ? Jun 19 18:14:38 benno2: yes Jun 19 18:14:49 benno2: you nee concrete examples, not 'pulseaudio sucks' Jun 19 18:15:10 SpeedEvil, yes. what is a typical case where you get audio clicks ? Jun 19 18:15:37 play music or listen to FM radio. Jun 19 18:15:43 Install an application. Jun 19 18:16:15 ah, with fully disabled powersave, I get 3ms ping times :-) Jun 19 18:16:20 benno2: only on heavy system load Jun 19 18:16:56 and no more drops in SIP call quality :-) Jun 19 18:17:16 Ikarus, yes but which apps then cause audio dropouts ? audio/video player or apps like skype too ? Jun 19 18:17:32 kW_: hack the SIP app to enable/disable WiFi powersaving on the fly Jun 19 18:17:38 benno2: it's due to swapping Jun 19 18:17:52 I suspect it's swapping too Jun 19 18:17:56 Ikarus: well, I should add this as a bug report somewhere... but where actually? Jun 19 18:17:58 benno2, for me, everything that uses the CPU a lot. the app manager, browsing with 4~ open windows..even one will do when a lot of flash is used Jun 19 18:18:17 kW_: bugs.maemo.org ? Jun 19 18:18:21 or whatever the name is Jun 19 18:18:31 kW_: Nokia devs take over stuff from it Jun 19 18:18:37 i hate wanna-build Jun 19 18:18:44 jacekowski: ? Jun 19 18:18:45 for some fucking reason it doesn't see my uploads Jun 19 18:18:53 ah Jun 19 18:19:16 Have you tried hitting it repeatedly with a hockey stick smeared in essence of trout? Jun 19 18:19:16 and x-fade isn't here so i can't just ask him to send his config files to me Jun 19 18:19:20 does "Bugs against packages which have not been modified for Maemo should be reported upstream to their developers or maintainers." mean I should go to nokia directly? Jun 19 18:19:26 Have you tried a sacrifice? Jun 19 18:19:44 A small rodent will suffice, as far as the builder is concerned Jun 19 18:20:03 teilzeitstudent, then you get audio skips on apps like skype/voip apps too ? or only in the audio player ? Jun 19 18:20:06 kW_: the proper place for this would be icd - it needs to be configured to vary powersaving on the fly Jun 19 18:20:20 benno2: I also get skips on 'FMradio' Jun 19 18:20:53 benno2, the default audio player, nqaap, fm radio client, havnt tested skype. Jun 19 18:20:55 SpeedEvil, sad. because it is routed through pulse audio ? Jun 19 18:20:59 yes Jun 19 18:21:22 It's also possible to setup the audio hardware so the CPU is not involved at all, but that is not done Jun 19 18:22:11 kW_: no, Maemo == Nokia for that Jun 19 18:22:28 Which reminds me.. is there any overview about how sound is handled? i.e. which subsystems are involved in which way? pulseaudio, alsa, ... what else? And at which points the profiles are used etc? Jun 19 18:23:05 teilzeitstudent: I was planning on writing one. Jun 19 18:23:08 but ... Jun 19 18:23:16 Found some PDF slide show somewhere, but that wasnt too helpfull Jun 19 18:23:27 alsa is basically uninvolved Jun 19 18:23:53 save as a compatibility layer over pulse, and what pulse attaches to the hardware with (unsure) Jun 19 18:23:58 All apps talk to pulse Jun 19 18:23:58 well, the other side still seems to have some dropouts... even with wireless powersave switched off Jun 19 18:24:24 SpeedEvil, well then is seems the whole system is quite weak. because pulseaudio. on the mailinglist I just got a repsonse on the ML: "As I understand it, pulseaudio on the n900 achieves 5ms latency, and a few dozen microseconds of jitter.It's just not for normal users." Jun 19 18:24:31 SpeedEvil, well I'm kinda curious about the "silent" profile (which stops all sound expept the audioplayer" Jun 19 18:24:38 Pulse talks to the hardware, which has a very flexible audio routing engine. Jun 19 18:24:50 benno2: yes - that was me - and I pointed at a PDF Jun 19 18:24:52 fucking fuck Jun 19 18:25:00 SpeedEvil, :) Jun 19 18:25:15 * SpeedEvil sighs. Jun 19 18:25:20 * SpeedEvil needs minions. Jun 19 18:25:36 "Jyri-Sarha-audio_miniconf_slides.pdf"? :P Jun 19 18:25:36 jacek: just wasted a perfectly good pet hamster? Jun 19 18:25:45 SpeedEvil, but the numbers on paper do not seem to reflect the real numbers users are seeing. Jun 19 18:26:12 benno2: yes - as I understand it, the mobile phone side is dealt with very differently to the rest of the auido Jun 19 18:26:28 benno2: I would load something like angry birds, and then look a t ho it does sounds. Jun 19 18:26:52 teilzeitstudent, that PDF is a bit of a joke. lots of nice theory but in practice the system is quite weak. Jun 19 18:27:52 benno2, I wouldnt know. Understood the title, then my head started hurting. Jun 19 18:29:31 All I really wanted to do was route the cell "sound" to skype via a bit of sox. But that relies heavily on alsa Jun 19 18:30:27 teilzeitstudent, my head started hurting by reading all the lies in that document! good idea, bad implementation Jun 19 18:30:29 benno2: The paper is largely orthogonal to normal sound on the device as I understand it. It simply shows that the hardware, and some elements of pulse can do it. Jun 19 18:31:37 whats a good ebook reader ? something not so memory hungry Jun 19 18:32:10 I have used FBReader for a few dozen books. Jun 19 18:32:12 Works OK. Jun 19 18:32:38 SpeedEvil, if Nokia had a brain, they would have investigated what's currently available on Linux. They would have discovered JACK and could have written a few modules for it to accomodate their needs (power management mainly). most best brains about linux audio are on the linux-audio-dev ML. asking for advice would cost nothing. Jun 19 18:32:52 yes Jun 19 18:33:12 good good Jun 19 18:33:46 linux-audio-dev <-- good place to start when creating lists of people for extermination Jun 19 18:35:23 maybe then we will not have o rewrite all the apps to the next greatest audio framework every two years Jun 19 18:36:44 You only have this problem because you insist on having apps with sound. Jun 19 18:36:53 correct, yes Jun 19 18:37:00 pfft Jun 19 18:37:03 RST38h, yes sometimes the mood isn't that good, some are stubborn etc. but the most competent people on the subject are there. and there are the linux audio conferences where people give prsentations about the current status about linux audio etc. Wondering why Nokia di not tap into that developer pool. Jun 19 18:37:10 there have only ever been two audio frameworks worth using Jun 19 18:37:17 not a big problem Jun 19 18:37:30 benno: absolutely no need in such people Jun 19 18:38:02 benno: there is a need in peope with enough guts to go back to /dev/audio Jun 19 18:38:18 does anyone know where i ca nget a tardis from? Jun 19 18:38:25 RST38h, the JACK API for example has remained quite stable and you can exchange JACK1 for JACK2 server and apps still work. In linux sampler it has been ages that we did not touch the jack audio output module. Jun 19 18:38:43 benno2: but JACK is just some lame layer Jun 19 18:38:43 lcuk: will tell you if you tell me where I can get today's episode from =) Jun 19 18:38:50 ALSA works just fine as it is Jun 19 18:38:59 luke: not really Jun 19 18:38:59 why not compile jack for n900 and try it Jun 19 18:39:12 luke: I guess you have never tried programming with ALSA Jun 19 18:39:13 money -> mouth Jun 19 18:39:16 I don't know how many native pulseaudio apps there are, but the list of apps supporting JACK is getting very long while on the homepage of pulseaudio I see just a couple of clients. Jun 19 18:39:18 RST38h, #bbc tv at its finest. come over to england this week, you can watch it on iplayer Jun 19 18:39:20 RST38h: nope Jun 19 18:39:39 I'm happy with the OSS API Jun 19 18:39:43 that ALSA is compatible with Jun 19 18:40:26 benno2: perfect, another audio api Jun 19 18:40:39 luke: ALSA simulates OSS API Jun 19 18:40:46 luke-jr, yes ALSA works but the problem is that on a phone you need to route and mix several sources. one could IMO just implement an ALSA dmix plugin too. except for mixing and routing I think that a phone does not require a very flexible system. more or less everything is "hardwired" Jun 19 18:40:48 everything supports OSS API :) Jun 19 18:40:54 luke: but it is quite a bit more, and that "bit" is a freaking mess Jun 19 18:41:14 "OSS API" itself is an extension of the /dev/audio Jun 19 18:41:17 benno2: ALSA has a dmix plugin, enabled by default Jun 19 18:41:29 benno2: and this is #maemo, not #openmoko Jun 19 18:41:38 benno2: bluetooth sinks are dynamic Jun 19 18:42:10 So, BSD people at some point reimplemented a cut-down version of the OSS API and called it /dev/pcm, linked to /dev/dsp Jun 19 18:42:13 can anyone verify that zoutube works atm? Jun 19 18:42:18 luke-jr, yes, OSS was quite simple, but as soon as you depart from the stereo soundcard model OSS is getting harder to deal with. so cards with 5.1 outs are getting more common and ALSA better deals with such stuff. Jun 19 18:42:39 benno2: I have two ears. Jun 19 18:42:40 <.< Jun 19 18:42:49 benno: could you please explain why you need 5.1 output in a laptop? Jun 19 18:42:51 or a phone? Jun 19 18:43:05 RST38h: It is nice to plug the phone into stuff as a media source. Jun 19 18:43:10 (and what prevents you from having 6 values per sample anyway) Jun 19 18:43:17 right SpeedEvil Jun 19 18:43:25 see N8 / hdmi Jun 19 18:43:36 RST38h: to be fair, I can see a legitimate need to have independent and concurring outputs via headset and speakers on a handheld device Jun 19 18:43:37 Speed: And you have got a 5+1 audio system? The one that is really better than two speakers? Jun 19 18:44:09 RST38h, the Nokia N8 for example comes with a HDMI out with dolby audio out. if it ran Linux it would be hard to address it with the OSS API. (N8 runs symbian^3) Jun 19 18:44:44 benno: you can easily enough transfer 6 values/sample in the OSS API Jun 19 18:44:50 RST38h: I am currently using a mono 4" speaker for much of my audio. Jun 19 18:45:01 speedevil: same here Jun 19 18:46:16 DAB radio - waterproof - 13h battery life, can drop a brick on it, and it will be a bit scuffed. Jun 19 18:47:11 RST38h, yes I know but then one has to standardize the stuff. today it's 6 values (5.1 out), tomorrow. or 3 values as said could mean 3 stereo outs etc. in that regard ALSA is more flexible and ready for such multichannel scenarios. and the API has remained quite stable lately. but I agree, OSS was quite straightforward to use. (except the mmap() API perhaps) Jun 19 18:47:36 benno: And believe it or not, OSS API supports this too Jun 19 18:55:05 hey anyone here have righttoleft lanuage input on their phone? Jun 19 18:56:23 why if i set up an adhoc network once, it is stuck as visible forever even if it is not in range and gone for good? Jun 19 18:56:39 because it's adhoc? Jun 19 18:56:57 Arkenoi: it's the whole point of ad-hoc Jun 19 18:56:59 there's no such thing as “out of range” for ad-hoc networks Jun 19 18:58:03 um Jun 19 18:58:19 there is, just not that the device can tell you. Jun 19 18:58:25 It's gonna form a network of one. Jun 19 18:58:42 But a network of one is pretty much what I'd define as "out of range" Jun 19 18:59:09 ManoftheSea: except anyone can connect to it Jun 19 19:01:20 (and that's the point, again) Jun 19 19:01:28 hi all Jun 19 19:01:32 It's like the "Free Public Wifi" ad-hoc network that has travelled around the world and then some Jun 19 19:02:00 someone know how I can fetch directly the modest-3.4 branch from git ? Jun 19 19:03:04 I have successfully get the tarball from gitorious and build it, but I want to be able to get latest comit's with a simple git pull in this branch ... Jun 19 19:05:27 allo ? Jun 19 19:06:08 Creteil: ask in #git? Jun 19 19:07:00 <18VAA2N09> hello Jun 19 19:07:27 <18VAA2N09> where could I study nanotechnology and help to in developing it Jun 19 19:07:50 university is a good bet Jun 19 19:08:17 <18VAA2N09> MIT? Jun 19 19:08:39 crashanddie, hehehe, not a bad idea :-) Jun 19 19:08:40 check their research centers Jun 19 19:08:51 i uploaded some images using picasaweb sharing plugin, the uploaded images dont have latitude and longitude Jun 19 19:09:15 i have noticed same thing with facebook sharing plugin as well. is that a bug? Jun 19 19:09:20 18VAA2N09: really the wrong channel Jun 19 19:09:22 18VAA2N09: if i were you i wouldn't aim for MIT after asking that sort of question Jun 19 19:09:27 or am i missing something. Jun 19 19:09:32 jacekowski: good point Jun 19 19:09:45 18VAA2N09: what's your knowledge of nanotechnology? Jun 19 19:10:19 <18VAA2N09> nothing much, but I don't know eny other way to help make life better xD Jun 19 19:10:26 i would like to do some sort of bioengineering bioinformatics stuff Jun 19 19:10:26 <18VAA2N09> any* Jun 19 19:10:30 trumee, you can choose in options of the sharing if you want to include precise positioning, iirc Jun 19 19:10:50 but i'm too old for that now Jun 19 19:11:07 you are never too old to try something Jun 19 19:11:17 i would have to get a-level's in biology and chemistry Jun 19 19:11:27 which is at least 2 years Jun 19 19:11:33 fuckin hell why doesnt ikea.fi have the site available in swedish Jun 19 19:11:33 18VAA2N09, great you came to maemo to askthose questions, we are all about making things work in tiny boxes :D Jun 19 19:11:34 biochemistry Jun 19 19:11:37 * frals blames lcuk Jun 19 19:11:47 hi Jun 19 19:11:53 frals, why the hell dont you work at ikea :P Jun 19 19:12:00 and then another couple years at uni Jun 19 19:12:12 according to my friend who works for them in sweden they pay isnt that good! Jun 19 19:12:44 if you fail, with biochemistry you can always choose to go for the M.D road :) Jun 19 19:12:50 its the only workplace you can do naked tho - so that solves one of your crisis questions Jun 19 19:12:52 mece_: I have three options in sharing 1) Keep all 2) Remove gps coord and 3) Remove all in file. I had selected 1) but still the coordinates were lost Jun 19 19:13:07 lol lcuk Jun 19 19:13:18 trumee, did you have positioning enabled elsewhere? Jun 19 19:13:19 hi hrw|n900 \o Jun 19 19:13:49 trumee, did the images have gpd coordinates embedded ? Jun 19 19:14:00 mece_: The images have coordinates in them. I can see it in image details Jun 19 19:14:17 lcuk: yes, the gps coordinates are embedded Jun 19 19:14:27 how many of you use hermes? Jun 19 19:15:29 lcuk: Image details shows GPS Long/Lat/Alt on N900. But picasaweb doesnt have that info Jun 19 19:15:35 hrw|n900: i have used hermes Jun 19 19:15:46 ok trumee does picasaweb resave the images and lose them? Jun 19 19:15:57 lcuk: no, the N900 probably does Jun 19 19:16:13 trumee: are you sharing at full size? Jun 19 19:16:36 hes already answered the question about tags to keep Jun 19 19:16:55 trumee, how about uploading another and confirming you hit 1 Jun 19 19:16:57 crashanddie: Image size is set to "Preserve Original" Jun 19 19:17:18 lcuk: ok, going to try it again. Jun 19 19:18:32 crashanddie, doctorwho was awesome this week :D Jun 19 19:18:48 lcuk: haven't watched it, haven't watched any with the new doctor Jun 19 19:18:56 lcuk: I think i won't be able to watch him Jun 19 19:19:18 heh Jun 19 19:19:21 lcuk: confirmed, picasaweb doesnt show the coordinates Jun 19 19:19:25 trumee: link? Jun 19 19:19:45 trumee, does it retain the other information tho? Jun 19 19:19:55 lcuk: yes it does Jun 19 19:19:57 since you selected option (1) which was keep everything Jun 19 19:20:20 and the source image you just uploaded DID have gps in confirmed? Jun 19 19:20:36 if thats the case: bug time Jun 19 19:20:36 If you're uploading to picasa an image that includes EXIF GPS in, and picasa is not using it, that's picasas problem Jun 19 19:20:39 lcuk & trumee: I doubt picasaweb would remove any kind of exif data. You could check the source of the exporter plugin Jun 19 19:20:45 crashanddie, sucker. Jun 19 19:20:46 Also Jun 19 19:20:52 GAN900: wanker Jun 19 19:20:53 there is a google command line thingy Jun 19 19:20:54 lcuk, crashanddie:http://pastebin.com/xftWXtXi Jun 19 19:21:09 trumee: LINK? Jun 19 19:21:25 http://code.google.com/p/googlecl/wiki/ExampleScripts Jun 19 19:21:27 trumee: just take a bloody picture and upload it. Jun 19 19:21:28 very handy Jun 19 19:21:36 it uploads to picasa using python Jun 19 19:21:42 (and does many other things) Jun 19 19:23:56 hi Jun 19 19:25:21 crashanddie: here you go, http://picasaweb.google.com/rajil.s/Test#5484566361256225154 Jun 19 19:26:45 Hi ... 2 days ago, my N900 went off, and was rebooting. I reflashed (System first, then eMMC, with battery full). Now I can see the five dots animation, and then it reboots forever. Any idea ? thx Jun 19 19:27:00 Jaffa: present? Jun 19 19:27:59 crashanddie: so it is a bug in picasaweb? Jun 19 19:28:26 trumee: Latitude: 52° 12' 16" N Jun 19 19:28:34 Longitude: 0° 7' 3" E Jun 19 19:29:10 crashanddie: where do you see that? Jun 19 19:29:25 trumee: after downloading the picture Jun 19 19:29:36 trumee: so picasa just doesn't display it Jun 19 19:29:44 crashanddie: ah!, so picasaweb doesnt display the tags right Jun 19 19:29:50 indeed Jun 19 19:30:14 crashanddie: facebook also has a similar issue i think Jun 19 19:30:51 trumee: go to picasa web settings Jun 19 19:31:37 crashanddie:cool. got it! Jun 19 19:31:47 trumee: make sure the "use my gps camera's longitude information" Jun 19 19:32:04 crashanddie: "Automatically map photos if they contain location data." Jun 19 19:32:17 hmm Jun 19 19:32:58 crashanddie: i had the above option, and enabling it shows the right tags Jun 19 19:33:58 there you go :) Jun 19 19:34:38 wrong button Jun 19 19:37:50 soo.. anyone around with arabic or hebrew input on their phone? Jun 19 19:38:34 crashanddie: if i tag the photo in N900 (e.g. travel) while sharing, the gps tags are lost on upload Jun 19 19:39:35 crashanddie: nope i was wrong Jun 19 19:40:13 crashanddie: the tags are retained, i checked it by downloading the image from picasaweb. So it is a picasa problem. Not to worry Jun 19 19:40:27 trumee: use flickr :P Jun 19 19:40:54 crashanddie: is there a sharing plugin for flickr? Jun 19 19:41:08 trumee: yeah, it's shipped by default Jun 19 19:41:25 trumee: it's the reason I started using flickr, when I got the N900 in Amsterdam Jun 19 19:41:30 crashanddie:all my family is on gmail. so it is simpler to use picasa. Jun 19 19:41:58 trumee: same here, Flickr just works a lot better overall Jun 19 19:42:43 crashanddie: hmm. i will try it out Jun 19 19:43:13 crashanddie: is it possible to set the album name from N900. In picasa everything goes to Dropbox which is painfull Jun 19 19:43:32 crashanddie: and i meant for flickr btw. Jun 19 19:44:54 trumee, in share via service->options, isn't there a "choose album"? Jun 19 19:45:32 mece_: I want to create a new album instead of choosing an existing album name. Jun 19 19:48:05 ovi share FTW :-P Jun 19 19:48:46 I use ovi share Jun 19 19:48:57 and yes, the 'create new album" option obviously is missing Jun 19 19:48:57 trumee, I don't think you can from the plugin Jun 19 19:49:07 * Stskeeps got the 3d driver in N8x0 working. Jun 19 19:49:11 Denmaaaaaaaark! Jun 19 19:49:15 \o/ Jun 19 19:49:27 Stskeeps: you rock! Jun 19 19:49:43 Stskeeps, omg! That took a while ;) You rock! Jun 19 19:49:58 there's a bunch of HW recovery stuff, but i see stuff spinning on my screen Jun 19 19:50:07 yay verily yay! Jun 19 19:50:20 Stskeep++ Jun 19 19:50:21 ? Jun 19 19:50:26 öh I forget how that is done Jun 19 19:51:09 hehe Jun 19 19:51:53 ~stskeeps++ Jun 19 19:52:08 Stskeeps, is that on diablo? Jun 19 19:52:11 now I have to kick myself :-P Jun 19 19:52:11 lcuk: yes Jun 19 19:52:16 kickass \o/ Jun 19 19:52:37 still a lot of work to be done but the principle works Jun 19 19:52:49 :-D Jun 19 19:52:55 crashanddie: do i need to enable gps coord in flickr, as i did with picasaweb. The long/lat tags re not showing up in flickr. Jun 19 19:52:56 sure, so this is an advance on the 3d driver working a while ago? :D Jun 19 19:53:39 trumee: look at advanced Exif Jun 19 19:53:41 there's some things we need to look at still, but this is useful Jun 19 19:54:17 http://stskeeps.subnetmask.net/maemo.org/gl/wrapperwsegl.c Jun 19 19:54:24 scroll down to wseglSwapDrawable Jun 19 19:54:40 Oh heh, "remote sim mode" doesn't do anything like what it sounded like. which raises the question, is it possible to do what it sounded like? i.e. proxy a sim card between two phones via bluetooth Jun 19 19:55:16 solrize: no, not really. Jun 19 19:55:18 crashanddie: http://www.flickr.com/photos/67572716@N00/4714633781/ Jun 19 19:55:39 crashanddie: The exif data doesnt show gps lat/long Jun 19 19:55:40 solrize: you'd need the AT+CSIM method in modem for that, and it's usually crippled or nonexistent, aiui Jun 19 19:55:40 alterego, hmm, what's the issue? data rate? latency? Jun 19 19:55:41 Stskeeps, ewww - you define fd=-1; then test if(fd==-1) :p Jun 19 19:56:07 DocScrutinizer, hmm. Jun 19 19:56:11 and even then dont check that you actually managed to open it correctly! Jun 19 19:56:28 lcuk: static Jun 19 19:56:29 :P Jun 19 19:56:33 lcuk: and yes.. Jun 19 19:56:34 trumee: doesn't appear to have it Jun 19 19:56:34 it is ugly Jun 19 19:56:35 the update there is what you were asking me last night were you Jun 19 19:56:39 :nod: Jun 19 19:56:48 solrize: it's just not possible, no one has or will bother writing that feature, what would be the point? Jun 19 19:56:52 eep didnt see the static and yeah thats ugly ass Jun 19 19:56:52 crashanddie: so N900 ate it while uploading. Jun 19 19:57:12 it did Jun 19 19:57:32 trumee: http://www.flickr.com/photos/byte/3079897126/meta/ Jun 19 19:57:37 trumee: this one has full gps data Jun 19 19:57:38 http://www.patentstorm.us/patents/7137565/description.html somebody seems to have patented it! found that by googling at+csim Jun 19 19:57:38 what is up with autobuilder again? Jun 19 19:57:54 check your upload options! you can remove geotags iirc Jun 19 19:58:23 trumee: http://www.flickr.com/account/geo/exif/?from=privacy Jun 19 19:59:15 and that's a persistent setting (thank gods of hildon) Jun 19 20:02:04 The Neo1973 will support +CSIM, but for security reasons, no access to Jun 19 20:02:04 GSM applications (instruction class 0xA0) is allowed. Jun 19 20:02:10 what's the security issue? Jun 19 20:02:29 (AT+CSIM) there's actually *one* phone that has full support, when you update modem firmware to http://people.openmoko.org/joerg/calypso_moko_FW/moko11/ Jun 19 20:02:50 crashanddie: yup, with that link it works now. Thanks Jun 19 20:04:13 (two phones to be precise: 1973 and Freerunner) Jun 19 20:04:23 OMG FUCKING ABULL_UK!!!!!! AAARGH!! *rips hair out* Jun 19 20:04:42 s/ABULL/ABILL/ Jun 19 20:04:43 mece_ meant: OMG FUCKING ABILL_UK!!!!!! AAARGH!! *rips hair out* Jun 19 20:04:53 haha. made infobot swear. Shame on you infobot Jun 19 20:05:38 you could repeat that several times even :-P Jun 19 20:05:40 are those functions accessible from the sim card through a smart card reader? and is the sim part of the gsm radio, i.e. not directly accessible from the phone? that surprises me since it's full of address book info etc Jun 19 20:05:49 hey guys, does anyone of you know how are those two-line buttons made (like the ones in addressbook)? Jun 19 20:05:54 what? he went out of his mind again/ Jun 19 20:05:55 ? Jun 19 20:06:06 lauri, two-line? Que? Jun 19 20:06:08 lauri: there is a secondary text Jun 19 20:06:11 solrize: yes Jun 19 20:06:20 mece_: that's enough Jun 19 20:06:29 crashanddie, sorry. Jun 19 20:07:09 RST38h: how is it implemented? Jun 19 20:08:37 lmao, in "The Sound of Music", the uncle suddenly calls the kids "You bunch of gloomy pussies" Jun 19 20:09:09 hrw: yes, but intermittently and possibly not in a receptive mood now. Jun 19 20:09:46 lauri, like this: http://maemomm.garage.maemo.org/docs_unstable/tutorial/html/sec-Buttons.html Jun 19 20:09:48 Jaffa: "CATCH" Jun 19 20:10:27 mece_: I see, what about PyQt4? Jun 19 20:10:49 Jaffa, "not in a receptive mood"? :D Jun 19 20:11:19 lauri, hmm. dunno about that. I haven't tried to make any. Jun 19 20:11:22 Jaffa, could you help me with a bricked n900 (reboots when dots cycling) . I did everything : Full Battery, System then eMMC.... No more idea Jun 19 20:11:42 Does anybody else find the whole "New Ovi stuff is coming Thursday!" thing completely hilarious? Jun 19 20:11:44 GAN900: I'm channeling Nokia ;-) Jun 19 20:11:58 When was Ovi launched for Maemo? Jun 19 20:12:01 Is this "new new new new new Ovi"? Jun 19 20:12:02 ofauchon, i hope you did not boot inbetween flash rootfs and emmc Jun 19 20:12:02 GAN900, haha that was pretty funny. Jun 19 20:12:08 How long until we get paid apps, you think? Jun 19 20:12:19 GAN900, I did buy zen bound today though :) Jun 19 20:12:21 Jaffa, the PR1.2 Ovi, yeah. Jun 19 20:12:28 lcuk, what's the problem if I did ? Jun 19 20:12:48 if you did you just wiped out the /opt content put there on first boot after flashing Jun 19 20:13:10 lcuk, I did 1/ Flash system 2/Flash eMMc /3 reboot Jun 19 20:13:59 and many other things like enabling rd mode .. with no success Jun 19 20:14:02 the openmoko phone seems to be pretty dead Jun 19 20:14:13 ofauchon, what caused this problem in the first place Jun 19 20:14:18 solrize: === Moko9-Beta2 === * Adds "AT+CSIM" (for swisscom) [and we didn't feel like protecting the SIM from user, for any security issues(instruction class 0xA0)] - see http://people.openmoko.org/joerg/calypso_moko_FW/all_version__CHANGELOG.txt Jun 19 20:15:04 Don't know... I woke up, the phone was off . When I switched it on , it was rebooting Jun 19 20:15:28 I may try to compile a framebuffer console kernel... Jun 19 20:15:38 boring Jun 19 20:15:48 battery flat? Jun 19 20:16:05 I charged the battery with another phone... it's 100% Jun 19 20:16:17 * DocScrutinizer ponders waking up as well now Jun 19 20:16:49 lauri: http://doc.qt.nokia.com/qt-maemo-4.6/qmaemo5valuebutton.html Jun 19 20:16:52 only thing i can suggest if try once again with the reflashing specifically and then if that fails its down to nokia i guess Jun 19 20:17:05 lcuk: I was almost there :P Jun 19 20:17:06 thanks Jun 19 20:17:08 DocScrutinizer, yeah, it looks difficult/impossible to buy those phones any more... and i'm still wondering what the security issue is or what those 0xa0 instructions do. maybe if i put the sim in some external device instead of another phone, the n900 can spoof it to its internal gsm modem? Jun 19 20:17:30 lauri, ? Jun 19 20:17:51 lcuk: I was browsing Qt4-s Maemo specific features list Jun 19 20:18:02 solrize: nope for spoof on N900, and for sure you can for buying Freerunners Jun 19 20:19:11 crashanddie: clas 0x0A is access to on sim authentication algorithm etc iirc Jun 19 20:19:28 DocScrutinizer: eh? Jun 19 20:19:52 crashanddie: AT+CSIM class 0x0A commands Jun 19 20:20:20 crashanddie: oops, sorry ETAB Jun 19 20:20:30 howdy Jun 19 20:20:32 solrize: ^^^ Jun 19 20:20:34 DocScrutinizer: why the hell are you talking me? Jun 19 20:20:40 timeless: ping Jun 19 20:22:01 Heya guys. Jun 19 20:22:14 DocScrutinizer, thanks. it looks like rSAP does something like what i want but only for incoming calls? outgoing needs one of those restricted 0xa0 commands? Jun 19 20:22:20 denmark won against cameroon Jun 19 20:22:33 lcuk: weve won now? Jun 19 20:22:42 didnt think the match was over Jun 19 20:22:47 yeah just Jun 19 20:22:59 aha. brilliant, i guess Jun 19 20:23:56 first ever danish win? Jun 19 20:24:26 Danish can't possibly win. Jun 19 20:24:35 well, in this wm, or what you call it Jun 19 20:25:05 we lost against holland the 1st match Jun 19 20:25:08 luke-jr, sure they can, like anyone else in the world cup its about luck lol Jun 19 20:25:11 oh; I guess since all WM suck quite a bit, it wouldn't take much for Danish to win there Jun 19 20:25:37 it doesn't take much for a Window Manager to be decent, but somehow all I've seen screw it up Jun 19 20:25:39 :/ Jun 19 20:25:53 what's this Danish one called? Jun 19 20:26:02 solrize: sorry that's beyond my knowledge of the issue Jun 19 20:26:29 solrize: at least ATM Jun 19 20:26:35 luke-jr: wut? :p Jun 19 20:27:08 ... Jun 19 20:27:20 solrize: basically AT+CSIM is not related to either in- or outbound calls. It's about registration to the network and similar things Jun 19 20:28:32 Wifi Power Saving + g729= Crappy sip calls on N900 Jun 19 20:28:38 luke-jr: you're sure you're not talking bout wordcount (WC) ? Jun 19 20:29:10 trumee: not related to g729 Jun 19 20:29:17 i wonder whether there was any wlan power saving on N95. It works well with g729 Jun 19 20:29:42 DocScrutinizer: dunno. ulaw behaves better here than g729. Jun 19 20:29:44 DocScrutinizer, thanks. ok, forget about actual sim proxying for the moment, does the idea of using another phone as a remote UI for an n900 sound worthwhile? Jun 19 20:29:52 trumee: strange Jun 19 20:29:56 trumee: WiFi power saving was always a bad joke Jun 19 20:30:29 luke-jr: are there any statistics on whether it makes a difference? Jun 19 20:30:49 trumee: what wifi power setting Jun 19 20:30:50 luke-jr: The warning message on disabling it is "terrifying". Jun 19 20:31:29 flailingmonkey: Wlan power saving under connections tab. Jun 19 20:31:30 solrize: don't ask me. I'm just aware of usecases like built-in phones in cars to share the SIM of the mobile and do a full proxy Jun 19 20:32:07 trumee: uh, personal experience of anyone who's tried to SSH to a PSM-enabled wifi client? Jun 19 20:32:38 luke-jr: i do that all the time. never had any issue with this. Jun 19 20:32:39 DocScrutinizer, yeah, that's what rsap is for, so your incoming calls can go to the car phone, but you can't make outgoing calls that way. i didn't even realize that car handsfree systems had their own gsm radio though, i thought they were just like headsets Jun 19 20:32:43 trumee: i see it now. Jun 19 20:32:52 trumee: probably g711 simply has much higher bandwidth than g729 on WLAN, so the PSM doesn't kick in Jun 19 20:33:18 DocScrutinizer: could be that. Jun 19 20:34:01 trumee: It's lots Jun 19 20:34:11 solrize: there are both types. and for the one with GSM function (TX/RX) it should work for outbound calls as well as inbound Jun 19 20:34:29 it really feels like the battery life has been improved since 1.2 Jun 19 20:34:32 trumee: It - without powersave - uses around 1/6th of the battery per hour - solely for wifi - with cpu idle, and backlight off Jun 19 20:35:01 trumee: Wtih powersave on (and a supporting AP) it's more like 1/300th Jun 19 20:35:33 SpeedEvil: hmm. that is a big difference. Any idea if N95 had power saving enabled? Jun 19 20:36:11 SpeedEvil:N95 does sip calls perfectly with battery life equal to N900 Jun 19 20:36:15 luke-jr: With ssh - max powersaving mode - I get ~200-400ms interactive. Jun 19 20:36:32 DocScrutinizer, hmm, well that should do everything i want then. the idea is to just leave the big n900 (or an even bigger successor that might be ipad sized) in my bag, and use a small symbian phone as a remote handset for it Jun 19 20:37:29 SpeedEvil: What about max and intermediate power saving. is there a big difference between them? Jun 19 20:37:50 not tried intermediat Jun 19 20:38:00 Bug 10388 is the issue Jun 19 20:38:01 Bug https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=10388 Choppy audio in SIP conversation, WLAN power save problem? Jun 19 20:38:45 I am forced to use N95 for sip calls over wifi. Shameful for a NIT!!! Jun 19 20:39:32 actually i have another idea which is kind of evil, which is to leave the sim plugged into a computer at home and connect to it over the internet from elsewhere Jun 19 20:40:20 solrize: you can't normally do that - as the cell modem will not allow you to do that. Jun 19 20:40:49 Unless it supports the various remote SIM protocols. Jun 19 20:41:10 right, but these things do support rsap, the mode for car phones Jun 19 20:41:48 * Stskeeps ponders idly if he blew out the MBX part of his n8x0 Jun 19 20:42:01 yes - exactly. Jun 19 20:42:10 Stskeeps, seriously? Jun 19 20:43:38 SpeedEvil, do you know where the gsm speech codec lives? ie can i just sent my own bit stream through the cell modem? either an arbitrary bit stream, or a gsm-coded voice stream that was made outside the phone (e.g. for a voice mail system) Jun 19 20:43:51 Stskeeps: I was wondering that about my GPS for a while, a few months ago. Jun 19 20:44:11 Stskeeps: turned out an update had re-enabled serial console, which kinda interfered ;)\ Jun 19 20:48:27 jacekowski, ping? Jun 19 20:48:43 pong Jun 19 20:49:06 mece_: Jun 19 20:49:07 I have observed weird behavior with portrait auto rotation in qt4 Jun 19 20:49:24 solrize: I know of no phone that supports SAP-client Jun 19 20:49:25 jacekowski, would you mind terribly to test qlister 0.2-7 with russian input and see if everything works as it should? Jun 19 20:49:57 mece_: well, that will be hard Jun 19 20:50:05 mece_: i have normal english n900 Jun 19 20:50:10 jacekowski, ok. Jun 19 20:50:31 solrize: that will never ever wrk Jun 19 20:50:42 solrize: basically: Jun 19 20:50:52 solrize: The transmitted audio path looks like: Jun 19 20:51:40 DocScrutinizer, it really seems annoying that the phones put obstacles to prevent people from writing these applications.. i thought nokia WANTED people to write interesting phone apps Jun 19 20:51:55 jacekowski, nevermind then. I can write russian if I choose russian input, and it works, so I'll just have to go with that :) I see no reason why it shouldn't work. Just wanted to make sure. Jun 19 20:51:59 So, just had a thought, can a truely open platform really bring in a horde of app developers when the whole point of our platform is openness and freesoftware? Jun 19 20:52:17 alterego: not really Jun 19 20:52:19 So far, obviously it's just really attracted, well, us .. Jun 19 20:52:20 anyone with a russian n900 around? Or hebrew, or arabic, or chinese? Jun 19 20:52:23 alterego: it's all about marketing Jun 19 20:52:26 solrize: mic->signal processing ->GSM module audio in -> GSM encode -> radio -> radio errors ->GSM decode -> ISDN or other telco network -> GSM encode -> radio +errors -> GSM module RF in -> GSM decode -> speaker Jun 19 20:52:56 SpeedEvil: in n900 it goes trough omap and pulseaudio Jun 19 20:52:56 solrize: There are at least two codecs in the chain that you can't control, and additionally bit errors. So that never works Jun 19 20:53:12 jacekowski: yes - that was the 'signal processing' step - it's largely irrelevant Jun 19 20:53:13 yep Jun 19 20:53:22 what is he doing? Jun 19 20:53:39 AEC Jun 19 20:53:45 it seems Jun 19 20:53:48 aec? Jun 19 20:54:01 Acoustic Echo Cancellation Jun 19 20:54:04 SpeedEvil, thanks, yeah that's basically what i was asking. i can deal with the bit errors but it's annoying to mess up the sound with another layer of encode/decode Jun 19 20:54:12 solrize: you can't. Jun 19 20:54:18 solrize: You're missing the point. Jun 19 20:54:33 solrize: There are already two or three other codecs that you have no control over. Jun 19 20:54:45 sort of Jun 19 20:54:50 solrize: And the presence of bit errors means those codecs act like encryption to non-voice signals. Jun 19 20:54:52 these codes behave in a specific way Jun 19 20:54:55 * lcuk was meant to be gone this w/e Jun 19 20:55:03 They intentionally throw away non-voice like signals. Jun 19 20:55:24 SpeedEvil: but you can abuse it to send your signal Jun 19 20:55:26 right, that's what i mean. is that stuff inside the module though, or is there more stuff in the network also doing that? Jun 19 20:55:28 not exactly encryption Jun 19 20:55:28 at low bitrate Jun 19 20:55:44 solrize: just module Jun 19 20:55:45 jacekowski: yes, at a bitrate of maybe 10/s Jun 19 20:55:52 it appears lcuk failed then... Jun 19 20:55:58 solrize: Only the step up to the first 'radio' is in hte phone Jun 19 20:56:03 maybe even 100/s if you're good in designing such stuff Jun 19 20:56:13 mece_, yup, i lost will to be awake this morning and fell back asleep Jun 19 20:56:17 codes itself uses 9.6k Jun 19 20:56:19 iirc Jun 19 20:56:23 jacekowski, 13k Jun 19 20:56:34 solrize: The rest is in the cell tower it's connected to, the far cell tower, the network between the tower, and maybe even the PSTN it's tunneling through Jun 19 20:56:35 lcuk, ow.. Jun 19 20:56:38 so you can probably push 4-5k over it Jun 19 20:56:47 jacekowski: You really can't. Jun 19 20:57:01 i did that Jun 19 20:57:07 over voip Jun 19 20:57:09 ad now i have the most stinky headache ever and no desire to code or do anyfink actually Jun 19 20:57:10 but using gsm codec Jun 19 20:57:12 jacekowski: The codec intentionally throws away non voice-like signals. Jun 19 20:57:31 but you can generate voice like signal Jun 19 20:57:32 jacekowski: That is - talking of standard GSM voice channels Jun 19 20:57:35 Sure. Jun 19 20:57:39 jacekowski: no, you can't Jun 19 20:57:48 ffs Jun 19 20:57:53 don't tell me what i can't do Jun 19 20:58:10 One _horribly_involved_ hack got 1300bits/second using a synthetic throat, driven by data, and basically a voice recogniser on the other end Jun 19 20:58:23 Hi guys, I notice that when I'm in the inbox of a pop3 mail box, send myself an email using another computer, "send and receive" on the n900...it refreshes....but doesn't show any new mail in the list. So I get out the inbox, join it again, and there is my e-mail. Can someone try this as well, so I can possibly report this as a bug? Jun 19 20:58:41 djkrikke: it's by design Jun 19 20:58:51 I'm curious? Jun 19 20:58:51 djkrikke: POP3 is long obsolete Jun 19 20:58:57 SpeedEvil, yes? Jun 19 20:59:09 ? Jun 19 20:59:13 jacekowski: the highest bitrate you can possibly get thru GSM voiceband is someone reading a text loud, and far and typewriting it Jun 19 20:59:15 CutMeOwnThroat: Jun 19 20:59:15 i guess there's no way to have a gsm to gsm call without the demodulation by the pots network, but at least there's a sensible reason for that Jun 19 20:59:22 oh, you said synthetic throat... must have misheard Jun 19 20:59:25 solrize: There is. Jun 19 20:59:30 jacekowski, design? Jun 19 20:59:38 solrize: It's called circuit switched data Jun 19 20:59:39 luke-jr: That isn't the discussion :) Jun 19 20:59:41 gprs? Jun 19 20:59:57 solrize: And is fairly expensive, and not enabled for many/most peoples accounts Jun 19 21:00:09 it presents as a different type of call to the network, i guess Jun 19 21:00:13 yes Jun 19 21:00:19 stupid telco scams :) Jun 19 21:00:22 solrize: there is a thing called CSD though, a dialup dazaconection from gsm to gsm Jun 19 21:00:54 damn, SpeedEvil constantly beats me Jun 19 21:00:54 well, it's not expensive Jun 19 21:01:02 it's same price as voice call Jun 19 21:01:08 sometimes cheaper Jun 19 21:01:23 DocScrutinizer: it's better than someone reading aloud. It is every differentiable sound makable by a human voicebox that can be sent over GSM - split by GSM frame time Jun 19 21:02:07 (where makeable by a human voicebox is shorthand for 'encodable without errors by a GSM codec in the face of typical line condititons) Jun 19 21:02:14 SpeedEvil: language would serve for the 'codec' though Jun 19 21:02:28 so can the n900 let me route its linux /dev/audio to the gsm audio input, instead of using hte microphone? like if i want to program my own answering machine on the n900 Jun 19 21:02:37 jacekowski, what did you mean with design? Jun 19 21:02:39 1300 bits/second is way better than an order of magnitude better than voice. Jun 19 21:02:47 solrize: The n900 can. Jun 19 21:02:58 solrize: Indeed - the call normally goes through the CPU. Jun 19 21:03:06 ah, cool Jun 19 21:03:09 solrize: If the maemo stack will let you is another question. Jun 19 21:03:09 djkrikke: check bugzilla Jun 19 21:03:32 solrize: I suspect the answer is 'no, not without completely rearchitecting the system, and writing your own phone client' Jun 19 21:04:03 yep :-S Jun 19 21:04:09 solrize: http://linuxplumbersconf.org/2009/slides/Jyri-Sarha-audio_miniconf_slides.pdf - may be interesting to you. Jun 19 21:04:26 (pulseaudio as used in the n900 to do phone calls) Jun 19 21:04:41 hmm. well i know that it's possible to bypass the mic since the whole bluetooth headset system does exactly that Jun 19 21:05:06 so if i can intercept the bluetooth stuff in the maemo stack... Jun 19 21:05:08 It's definately possible in software. Jun 19 21:05:32 If you can do it without stopping the existing software, or confusing it to the state it malfunctions is almost certainly a no. Jun 19 21:05:32 thanks. so things aren't quite pessimal ;) Jun 19 21:05:42 but very questionable if the PA policy enforcer engine allows you to do that Jun 19 21:06:04 PA policy enforcer? what is that and what is it doing in a supposedly open system? :) Jun 19 21:06:05 It's not only PA - it's all of the call handling stuff that is basically - as I understand it - generally completely closed. Jun 19 21:06:13 ~closed Jun 19 21:06:20 REgrettably not all the parts are open Jun 19 21:06:29 * SpeedEvil looks at infobot. Jun 19 21:06:35 ~closed Jun 19 21:06:39 ~factinfo closed Jun 19 21:06:39 who are they trying to fool with this enforcer stuff anyway? it looks like i can get gsm modules from sparkfun with none of this enforcement stuff Jun 19 21:06:44 methinks closed is http://wiki.maemo.org/Why_the_closed_packages Jun 19 21:06:44 closed -- created by timeless_mbp at Mon Jan 11 20:52:30 2010 (159 days); it has been requested 12 times, last by SpeedEvil, 0s ago. Jun 19 21:06:45 http://www.sparkfun.com/commerce/product_info.php?products_id=9533 Jun 19 21:06:50 LOL Jun 19 21:07:48 the media player is closed? hahahaha it is a piece of crap anyway. i'd like to port rockbox to the phone Jun 19 21:08:31 Bits of code are popping up that are promising to replace bits of architecture. Jun 19 21:08:47 For example - 'cuteexplorer' is almost a perfect replacement for the file manager. Jun 19 21:09:04 And 'cron' is a perfect replacement for the calendar. :) Jun 19 21:09:21 hee Jun 19 21:09:26 alarmed is - in fact Jun 19 21:10:09 what is PA? Jun 19 21:10:24 PulseAudio Jun 19 21:10:38 http://blessn900.com/ - for example might be interesting as a camera app Jun 19 21:11:02 SpeedEvil: still I ponder to hack up the fileselectorlib to fix this issue for *all* apps on fremantle, not to replace HFM by cuteexplorer Jun 19 21:11:52 that might be interesting, yes. Jun 19 21:12:19 I was seeing the stock FM do odd things - like refusing to delete large files on ext2 Jun 19 21:12:31 SpeedEvil, indeed Jun 19 21:12:33 I should try to debug that. Jun 19 21:12:38 DocScrutinizer: speaking of which Jun 19 21:12:38 to the replacing bits Jun 19 21:12:47 that's another topic - for sure HFM is a retarded piece of sw Jun 19 21:12:50 mece_: what was the link to you libhildonfm2 work? Jun 19 21:13:36 libhildonfm2, that was the name Jun 19 21:13:40 alterego: I tried and voted qlister :) Jun 19 21:13:52 ~libhildonfm2 Jun 19 21:13:53 extra, extra, read all about it, libhildonfm2 is a piece of sh*t Jun 19 21:13:54 Up or down? Jun 19 21:14:11 I voted it up. Jun 19 21:15:25 alterego: quick question, what do you think of a way to re-enable auto-rotation after you do a manual rotation? Jun 19 21:15:37 flailingmonkey: http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p=710395&postcount=14 Jun 19 21:15:39 alterego: its not the most common usecase, just curious Jun 19 21:16:19 alterego: you had a look into the issue of libhildonfm2 to not allow cd .. on Phone and card? Jun 19 21:16:20 wow, that blurless is a really cute idea, i didn't know you could read out from a ccd sensor without wiping it. they read while a long exposure is still in progress? Jun 19 21:16:29 solrize: I suspect they don't Jun 19 21:16:45 solrize: I suspect they simply take a short exposure pic, then a long exposure one Jun 19 21:17:03 they say they don't. maybe they just mean the interval is short Jun 19 21:17:18 funny enough, my post in that thread was completely ignored, and the discussion went on, and people were discovering the problems I had and solved. Go figure. Jun 19 21:17:38 s/had and/had found and/ Jun 19 21:17:39 mece_ meant: funny enough, my post in that thread was completely ignored, and the discussion went on, and people were discovering the problems I had found and solved. Go figure. Jun 19 21:17:53 solrize: They don't quite give detail sof the algorithm. Jun 19 21:17:55 tmo needs a way to vote up posts, so they stand out Jun 19 21:18:11 mece_: TMO is so fucking broken. Jun 19 21:18:14 Indeed. Jun 19 21:19:25 (though the above 'blessn900' would ideally really need to be opensource (or for them to have APIs to hook)) Jun 19 21:20:54 tmo has a way to vote up posts, but no way to show a view of only voted up posts Jun 19 21:21:06 what a great product, SpeedEvil (blessn900) Jun 19 21:21:06 it's just as well that they don't give details since it's closed/commercial. (oh blech, they say patent pending) Jun 19 21:21:20 * SpeedEvil sighs. Jun 19 21:21:39 There is tons of prior art on this. Jun 19 21:25:22 oh cool, maybe something comparable can be written based on earlier publications then. i wonder if it can be done for chdk too Jun 19 21:25:52 it's probably simpler just to take the pics, then postptocess Jun 19 21:26:05 * SpeedEvil sighs at the patent system. Jun 19 21:26:27 their digital zoom thing, is that just replacing crappy linear stretching with bicubic interpolation or something like that? Jun 19 21:26:42 Patents should reward true brilliance, or sustained effort. Jun 19 21:27:18 You should _NOT_ be ever able to get a patent because you have average skill, and had 15 min to solve a problem, and happen to be the first to file it. Jun 19 21:27:19 SpeedEvil: I think the original intent is valid, publish the knowledge so others can use it Jun 19 21:27:34 Because that utterly stifles creativity. Jun 19 21:29:27 well that gets off subject of phones :) Jun 19 21:30:42 solrize: ya figure phones are patent free and hasn't stifiled inovation? :) Jun 19 21:31:22 lcuk, good tweet. I LOL'd Jun 19 21:31:25 http://30.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_l47zijIl5k1qzit26o1_500.jpg Jun 19 21:31:57 mece_: awesome Jun 19 21:32:01 * asj_ goes surfing Jun 19 21:32:18 asj_, credit goes to lcuk. Jun 19 21:32:30 not at all Jun 19 21:32:34 i just spotted it on irc lol Jun 19 21:32:42 http://30.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_l47zijIl5k1qzit26o1_500.jpg <- ONTOPIC! Jun 19 21:32:45 and thats not me :p Jun 19 21:32:56 asj, :) i think as FOSS hackers we're all on about the same page about patents, so filling the channel with vent won't help much Jun 19 21:33:01 that extra z makes all the difference. Jun 19 21:33:45 solrize: not sure, I have 2 ;) Jun 19 21:34:56 mece_: you looked into the acces-to-/ thing of libhildonfm2 ? Jun 19 21:35:38 http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&safe=off&q=faggots+%27burn+them%27++guard+soft&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai= Jun 19 21:35:41 argh Jun 19 21:36:32 faggots + burn_them ?? Jun 19 21:37:57 I was looking for a quote from 'Good Omens' Jun 19 21:38:02 what's a cheapest way to have internet in a phone if i'm going to usa for couple days? Jun 19 21:38:32 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Good_Omens Jun 19 21:38:45 jacekowski: Load it all onto a microSD before you go. Jun 19 21:38:49 sign up for a contract, and don't pay it and don't come back? Jun 19 21:39:50 jacekowski: With the emergence of armed Predators, with remotely targetted missiles, do you really want to do that? Jun 19 21:39:54 can someone test my n900 app? Jun 19 21:40:16 requires pr1.2 Jun 19 21:40:20 Not at the moment, I have to go to sleep. Jun 19 21:40:22 What is it? Jun 19 21:40:27 grooveshark client Jun 19 21:40:59 trying to debug behaviour in portrait mode Jun 19 21:41:16 my n900 is doing wierd things Jun 19 21:44:25 When a dialog window pops up it changes screen orientation out of portrait until the sensor resets and finds that its in portrait and sets it back Jun 19 21:44:40 seems almost random when this occurs Jun 19 21:45:00 interesting Jun 19 21:46:38 lcuk, the display of posts should be decorated to indicate their current vote-status, and make it possible for extremely low voted posts to be dimmed or hidden Jun 19 21:46:55 dotblank, that's one of the reasons I have the possibility for manual rotation in qlister. It's really autorotate can be frustrating sometimes. Jun 19 21:49:51 I think I'm gonna head out. Jun 19 21:51:50 please test and vote qlister if you've got the time. I really want to rid the world of that stupid dependency bug that the version in extras have. Jun 19 21:52:13 here's the link http://maemo.org/packages/package_instance/view/fremantle_extras-testing_free_armel/qlister/0.2-6/ Jun 19 21:52:19 bye. Jun 19 21:55:44 If anyone wants to help me test my grooveshark app let me know Jun 19 22:02:38 http://i280.photobucket.com/albums/kk167/smileykarlsruhe/DSC08345.jpg?t=1276703345 nice 5 row keyboard on the HTC dream Jun 19 22:08:50 evening all Jun 19 22:09:03 moo Jun 19 22:14:29 ahoy Jun 19 22:15:31 GAN900: what was the insult for, earlier? Jun 19 22:16:30 Is there a trival way to set a LED pattern under shell? Jun 19 22:26:32 ~lart HILDON_FILE_SYSTEM_MODEL_* Jun 19 22:26:32 * infobot urinates on HILDON_FILE_SYSTEM_MODEL_* Jun 19 22:27:49 crashanddie, by way of greeting. :P Jun 19 22:27:57 Anyone try the Backflip keyboard? Jun 19 22:28:22 GAN900: interesting Jun 19 22:28:34 http://www.chinaewindow.com/180-degree-rotating-qwerty-keyboard-tv-mobile-phoneblack-p-373.html cute rotating cellphone design Jun 19 22:29:51 http://www.chinaewindow.com/white-mid-7-inch-touch-screen-apad-tablet-pc-google-android-wifi-p-1017.html chinese android MID tablet $101 Jun 19 22:30:20 DocScrutinizer, reading through the pulseaudio (client) API docs. again don't know if I should cry of laugh :) Jun 19 22:30:59 dbus-send --system --type=method_call --dest=com.nokia.mce /com/nokia/mce/request com.nokia.mce.request.req_led_pattern_deactivate string:PatternExample Jun 19 22:31:04 (above question) Jun 19 22:31:14 benno2: have you tried using pulseaudio on top of jackd on the n900? Jun 19 22:31:27 benno2: hmm yes Jun 19 22:32:17 after running af-sb-init.sh start "something" is supposed to show up on Xephyr isn't? It doesn't show nothing to me and still says it the gui is up and running which I can verify by running run-standalone.sh maemopad. Any clues? Jun 19 22:32:22 crashanddie, yeah, yeah. Jun 19 22:32:34 SpeedEvil: yes, that's the suggested way to do, anyway PatternExample won't work usually Jun 19 22:32:47 infobot, ping Jun 19 22:32:48 ~pong Jun 19 22:33:11 flailingmonkey, not yet. I am currently developing an audio app which needs to record data with low delay. next step will be trying pulseaudio directly. and then perhaps gstreamer. tried using ALSA directly specifying only freq=48000, stereo 16bit but the open call fails. Jun 19 22:33:33 DocScrutinizer, there is a chapter "developing high latency apps" :) Jun 19 22:34:28 benno2: stop pulseaudio, then edit /etc/asound.conf to add a real hardware device link. But that's silly Jun 19 22:34:47 benno2: ROTFL Jun 19 22:36:34 flailingmonkey, it makes no sense to run both PA and JACK. wastes resource and adds makes the audio chain longer and possibly weaker. as said there is only room for one bully in town :) but as said on the ML, if Nokia is really able to make meego run smooth and PA delivers decent low latencies for user space too then I'll shut up and happily use what is available. it's not that I'm in love with jack. just want to get the job done. Jun 19 22:38:06 SpeedEvil, I need to deploy the app on standard N900's without breaking anything. so I need to avoid hacks. I've read the PA docs that you can load modules into PA and run them within PA for lower latencies (they mention voip clients) , but I find this silly and who knows if it is supported by the N900. Jun 19 22:38:46 DocScrutinizer, from the PA docs "For the sake of reducing power consumption and drop-out safety always make sure to pick the highest latency possible that fulfills your needs. Never pick a lower latency than you really need. If you do pick needlessly low latencies you just burn CPU and make it more likely that we will get a drop-out. And worst of all that makes PA and me look bad, since people will blame PA and me for it. And I don't like to look bad! ;-)" Jun 19 22:39:11 * SpeedEvil sighs. Jun 19 22:39:38 benno2: sounds reasonable Jun 19 22:42:01 DocScrutinizer, yes but above they say that in substance PA does what it wants, you can suggest a latency but it does not guarantee anything and might chose the latency it wants. I can understand the limits of the hw, but it should allow at least a range of reasonable latencies. the nokia PDF says that PA on the N900 changes the hw audio buffersize when not in a call (increased bufsize). but does not say anything specific.I find this bad because even when not Jun 19 22:42:01 in a call we might need fast audio response. Jun 19 22:42:53 hmm, what can I say Jun 19 22:44:05 it's a bad design to place artificial restrictions when all the above (low power consumption and fast audio response) can be accomplished by well designed apps that follow the programming guidelines. Jun 19 22:45:13 benno2: so far you have failed to establish, that the current infrastructure does not satisfy your latency needs. So the discussion is moot. Jun 19 22:46:06 and you talk too much Jun 19 22:51:19 benno2: it makes no sense to run *either* PA *or* JACK Jun 19 22:51:24 ALSA works fine by itself Jun 19 22:53:13 perhaps you're not aware of all the features people expect from a phone and what demands those place on the audio subsystem Jun 19 22:53:25 or perhaps you are Jun 19 22:54:07 nomis, yes I cannot give my final verdict about it. so more research is needed. And yes I make lots of noise but it's for a good cause. It might be disturbing for some but OTOH the outcome can be helpful to others which want to achieve the same goals.so far it seems that one cannot easily find a cookbook recipe to solve my problem. I'll try to reduce the noise I make to a minimum until I made progress or exhausted all audio APIs maemo provides. Jun 19 22:54:37 pupnik: hardly matters, since Maemo IS NOT A PHONE PLATFORM Jun 19 22:56:36 luke-jr, in principle I agree with you, the less sw components run the better. if ALSA is enough to perform all the tasks then other stuff is not needed.the question is if it can be done solely with dmix etc.they probably went the PA route because it's easier to mix and route in userspace rather than in the ALSA layer. Jun 19 22:59:13 fuck a doodle do. UFO threads on TMO. Jun 19 22:59:29 LOL Jun 19 22:59:40 so identify them. then they can't be UFOs Jun 19 22:59:44 luke-jr: Maemo is not a phone platform? Jun 19 23:00:04 luke-jr: mind sending me your Maemo 5 netbook, and Maemo 5 internet tablet? Jun 19 23:00:39 crashanddie: why would I send you my N810? Jun 19 23:00:52 Your n810 runs Maemo 5? Jun 19 23:01:04 no, thanks to Nokia Jun 19 23:01:07 ;) Jun 19 23:01:28 luke-jr: can you deactivate the automated contacts when you type on the desktop? And when you type digits without prime focus, does the annoying phone UI pops up every single time? Jun 19 23:01:37 Oh yeah, that's right, it's because it's a bloody phone operating system! Jun 19 23:01:38 :) Jun 19 23:01:58 sorry, being argumentative Jun 19 23:04:53 it's still just a MID platform with highly intwegrated phone app Jun 19 23:05:04 s/inwegrated/integrated/ Jun 19 23:05:40 and it shows in the rough edges of the phone experience (vs. the whole N900 experience) Jun 19 23:07:04 i think some people expected the n900 to do everything a pda or phone had ever done before and better Jun 19 23:07:35 well, thats what they would like Jun 19 23:08:15 but in order to do that, you need a solid base and thats where most of the work went into Jun 19 23:16:59 * crashanddie laughs at the backtrack guys who tried to hype NeoPwn for N900, and well, now they're falling short, and hard on their faces Jun 19 23:19:55 w00t, I got a +5 insightful on slashdot, yay :0 Jun 19 23:20:14 cheater :p Jun 19 23:21:22 test Jun 19 23:21:49 MohammadAG51: test succeeded Jun 19 23:22:11 * DocScrutinizer sighs Jun 19 23:22:12 Houston we have lift off! Jun 19 23:22:34 congrats for successfully connecting to ZNC :-P Jun 20 00:48:20 I'm betting 10 minutes before I get a "too long, didn't read" comment as a reply to this: http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p=722229&postcount=9 Jun 20 00:48:39 well, 10 minutes is probably optimistic at this time of day, most probably 5 or 6 hours Jun 20 00:51:07 is it worth reading? Jun 20 00:51:48 worth is in the eye of the beholder :) Jun 20 00:52:00 Umm Jun 20 00:52:02 and since you wrote it.. I get your point. Jun 20 00:52:09 From memory, that's the wrong mars-face image Jun 20 00:52:15 the higher res one Jun 20 00:53:50 SpeedEvil: meh, just took whatever google images gave me Jun 20 00:53:59 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Mars_face_HiRISE_MRO.png Jun 20 00:54:08 Odd - I remember a lot more detail Jun 20 00:54:43 crashanddie, that's one effin long post to read Jun 20 00:56:01 SpeedEvil: how big is that mountain again? isn't it like 20 meters per pixel or something stupid? Jun 20 00:57:05 Ah - I see - I think the image I saw was height exaggerated Jun 20 00:57:07 yes Jun 20 00:57:36 http://www.msss.com/mars_images/moc/extended_may2001/face/index.html Jun 20 00:59:41 SpeedEvil: You usualy need to do that or it'll be hard to see the z diff Jun 20 01:01:38 well, it was worth reading. Jun 20 01:08:14 I'm betting that in about 20 minutes, two smoking hot chicks will bring me a big fat $200k lump of money, and will do whatever I want for the rest of the summer. Jun 20 01:08:33 MohammadAG51: make it happen, buddy Jun 20 01:10:04 * MohammadAG51 sends two tar.bz-s each containing infobot's source with an "echo "$200k"" edited into it Jun 20 01:31:11 re Jun 20 01:31:26 no Jun 20 01:31:34 indeed! Jun 20 01:32:43 quark Jun 20 01:33:08 * SpeedEvil notices that crashanddie has been silent ever since 20 mins after his pronouncement. Jun 20 01:36:07 crashanddie: re: that conditioning experiment. http://www.jstor.org/pss/1419345 - I immediately thought of replacing the pigeon with camgirls, and comparing the results. Jun 20 01:37:28 thanks for that link Jun 20 01:44:41 SpeedEvil: muhaha jstor blocks visitors when cookies disabled Jun 20 01:44:49 so screwit Jun 20 01:45:22 jstor? Jun 20 01:45:29 oh Jun 20 01:45:37 brain lag? Jun 20 01:45:50 I forgot where I'd linked to Jun 20 01:45:53 vldcnst: you got noooo idea dudue Jun 20 01:46:52 I just dug thru 9xxMB of TI Calypso modem FW sourcecode Jun 20 01:47:28 now I feel like the living proof of extraterestrial life being existent Jun 20 01:47:42 Funky. Jun 20 01:48:04 the actual GSM-side? Jun 20 01:48:12 parts Jun 20 01:48:19 Layer1 has some Jun 20 01:48:20 oh yeah Jun 20 01:48:28 there are two cores aren't there Jun 20 01:48:33 yep Jun 20 01:48:38 and a DSP Jun 20 01:49:06 and a LCD interface, and a kbd interface and and and Jun 20 01:49:08 Leaked somehow, or legit? Jun 20 01:49:23 I'd MINE, alll MINE Jun 20 01:49:29 :) Jun 20 01:49:42 Not actually that interested in reading it. Jun 20 01:49:46 MOKO11 Jun 20 01:49:56 I could in principle do funky stuff with it - but I wouldn't. Jun 20 01:50:07 actually it's maximum boring stuff Jun 20 01:50:12 Simply as I have way more stuff to do than time. Jun 20 01:50:50 you could - maybe - dig out how to change the IMEI Jun 20 01:52:26 well, the 900MB figure is a bit missleading as there are lots of huge pdf's and even a js runtime environment for windows in there as well, cygwin and whatnot Jun 20 01:53:13 pco2 debugging tool Jun 20 01:53:25 *yawn* Jun 20 01:54:08 still it's the most comprehensive modem FW source Ive seen so far (and the only one :-P) Jun 20 01:57:49 One of those things that is interesting in principle, but in practice, to do anything at all with would take hundresds of hours of effort. Jun 20 01:59:59 yep, exactly Jun 20 02:01:36 Which seems Dieter and Harald had over the last year :-D Jun 20 02:03:34 hello. Quick question for anyone who might know (as opposed to those questions directed to the clueless...): I'd like to remove the grey bezel from my Nokia n810 to apply a screen protector. I need to unscrew it from the back, yes? Jun 20 02:08:14 DocScrutinizer: you under NDA? Jun 20 02:08:24 sure Jun 20 02:08:30 bah Jun 20 02:09:42 well, technically I had to check if I'm *still* under NDA, but don't feel like messing with it Jun 20 02:10:24 luke-jr: you got a phone with calypso gsm chipset? Jun 20 02:38:11 DocScrutinizer: if I can make an open firmware for one, I might :p Jun 20 02:40:34 luke-jr: bad luck then, even what openmoko got from TI is >70% blobs Jun 20 02:40:56 bad luck? :p Jun 20 02:40:59 I meant I'd buy one Jun 20 02:43:54 yeah, but there's no open firmware in vicinity from this little fancy. Check what laf0rge aka Harald Welte @ gnumonks.org has done for open firmware on calypso. AIUI it's based on a leaked version of the calypso frimware tailored for another phone - just as a 'documentation' for the chipset functions, and then they implemented an own stack based on that knowledge Jun 20 02:45:47 you might find details on his blog Jun 20 02:59:49 luke-jr: http://bb.osmocom.org/trac/ and http://laforge.gnumonks.org/weblog/ **** ENDING LOGGING AT Sun Jun 20 02:59:56 2010