**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Tue Sep 28 02:59:57 2010 Sep 28 03:00:10 (which is what caused this whole mess in the first place) Sep 28 03:00:35 uhm, you could try. make sure you get your stuff first Sep 28 03:00:56 /dev/sdb1 1962220 829396 1132824 43% /mnt Sep 28 03:00:58 ok.... Sep 28 03:02:00 oh btw, "share" contains this: fonts/ games/ icons/ locale/ osso-help/ sounds/ Sep 28 03:02:44 would ANY OF THESE MISSING from /usr/share BEFORE mmc2 gets booted, cause the tablet to NOT boot properly? Sep 28 03:02:50 would ANY OF THESE MISSING from /usr/share BEFORE mmc2 gets mounted, cause the tablet to NOT boot properly? Sep 28 03:02:53 sorry Sep 28 03:03:04 sure Sep 28 03:03:05 icons Sep 28 03:03:10 fonts Sep 28 03:03:12 locale Sep 28 03:03:14 sounds Sep 28 03:03:26 wtf????? Sep 28 03:03:45 mmc2 gets mounted *after* the GUI is running, I believe Sep 28 03:03:51 you mean all those directories HAVE to be on the / fs ??? Sep 28 03:04:09 or modify when mmc2 gets mounted *shrugs* Sep 28 03:04:20 wtf??? and that would be because nokia are fucking retards, or what??!?!?? Sep 28 03:04:34 you're two years late to complain about this Sep 28 03:04:45 just got this tablet like 2 weeks ago Sep 28 03:05:04 meh. then you didn't do your research *and* you're two years late Sep 28 03:05:30 and not all nokians are retards Sep 28 03:06:03 lpotter_++ Sep 28 03:06:14 *sigh* OK. so as i said the kernel is not the problem. now how do i edit files in /etc on the root fs? Sep 28 03:06:22 sometimes devices are designed with an audience that's not joe random hacker Sep 28 03:06:35 I always liked vi, but that's just me Sep 28 03:06:41 DocScrutinizer51: can or can't, they want the situation to change for the worse Sep 28 03:06:56 <--- joe random-linux-user-for-the-past-15-years Sep 28 03:07:12 great Sep 28 03:07:25 yes, quite disqualifying for Nokia Sep 28 03:07:27 um let me rephrase that, how do i make /etc/ on the tablet's root fs accessible from the PC? Sep 28 03:07:33 I was one of the guys hacking debian onto the N8x0, not one of the people complaining to Nokia Sep 28 03:07:42 delt, get it booting, ssh in Sep 28 03:08:18 the kernel is what makes the fs available over usb Sep 28 03:08:36 yeah, someone mentioned that earlier today Sep 28 03:08:47 me Sep 28 03:08:51 yesterday Sep 28 03:09:28 * delt -> concentration--; Sep 28 03:09:36 heh :) Sep 28 03:09:55 just don't complain like you're owed something and I won't get prickly :) Sep 28 03:10:05 really, i have serious nervous system and concentration issues Sep 28 03:10:29 * lpotter_ thinks nokia owes him a beer Sep 28 03:10:57 I have serious attention problems, just don't rant/complain too much, ask smart questions and people will be helpful Sep 28 03:11:57 so now the "get it booting" part... Sep 28 03:12:07 right. do you have all the files you wanted? Sep 28 03:12:11 ssh in would require a sshd, which i had installed on that partition Sep 28 03:12:18 yeah, thanks very much for that btw Sep 28 03:12:23 great Sep 28 03:12:39 reflash is the *easiest* way from here Sep 28 03:12:43 so now, probably simpler to just re-flash it Sep 28 03:13:17 if you want to get into serious hacker mode you could probably get a rescue initrd setup but it's probably not worth it Sep 28 03:13:33 what's the latest (and relatively stable) version of maemo that will run reliably on n810? Sep 28 03:13:52 uhm, whatever it says on tablets-dev.nokia.com Sep 28 03:14:00 my brother told me maemo 5 is for the n900 but semi-works on the 810 ...is that correct? Sep 28 03:14:22 that's ... kind of stretching the facts a bit Sep 28 03:14:49 i think he said some ppl have tried it and it's really buggy, or something like that Sep 28 03:15:19 * johnx is also one of the guys who was working on backporting maemo 5 to the N8x0, but gave up once he was in the process of becoming a linux distro maintainer Sep 28 03:15:44 heh, so you're one of the authors of maemo dist? Sep 28 03:15:48 nope Sep 28 03:15:59 or at least the arm kernel? Sep 28 03:16:10 errr....just some bored sys admin Sep 28 03:16:15 :) Sep 28 03:16:38 other people did a lot more of the work. I hacked some things and acted as cheer leader and 'proof of concept' guy Sep 28 03:17:04 researcher! Sep 28 03:17:15 basically, we were trying to pull the open parts of maemo 5 and get them running happily on the N8x0 hardware Sep 28 03:17:54 lpotter, research is a a very pretty word to call my hacks :) Sep 28 03:18:07 one thing i wanted to make sure of.... can i completely flush this windows partition and replace it with a ext3? Sep 28 03:18:13 I was being generous, then Sep 28 03:18:29 lpotter, flattery is always appreciated :) Sep 28 03:18:36 delt, uhm, maybe with a bit of work Sep 28 03:18:55 other than changing the entry in /etc/fstab and so on? Sep 28 03:19:25 is it mounted from /etc/fstab? Sep 28 03:20:04 anyways, reflash, then start hacking :) Sep 28 03:20:08 dunno... but if the 2gb partition "internal card" was... i'd guess wouldnt have any problems with the device right now. Sep 28 03:21:15 ok, my frontal lobe hurts im starting to have smoke coming out of my ears. gonna take a look at this tomorrow Thanks for the info all, especially johnx Sep 28 03:21:37 delt, good luck :) take a breather and make a fresh start tomorrow Sep 28 03:21:46 always easier to hack when you're not worried about your data Sep 28 03:22:01 oh another thing... if i had a minisd card, i could use it as "boot disk" kind of, right? Sep 28 03:23:07 i think yesterday someone mentioned booting from external SD (?) Sep 28 03:23:30 delt, exactly Sep 28 03:23:33 boot from sd Sep 28 03:23:49 that's what we did with debian-on-n8x0 and the maemo5-backport (mer) Sep 28 03:24:12 so if i had a mini sd card (or a micro with an adapter) this whole thing would have been a lot easier? Sep 28 03:24:38 yeah, that is on my to-buy-soon list anyway.... Sep 28 03:25:15 but to boot from miniSD you need to have flashed an 'alternate' initrd that has 'bootmenu' in it Sep 28 03:25:29 basically a little swtichboard that lets you pick a filesystem to pivot_root onto Sep 28 03:25:48 and to generate that initrd you really need a running device or a lot of involved hacking Sep 28 03:27:23 johnx: kind of like lilo's boot-which-os menu? Sep 28 03:27:51 to the user it looks similar Sep 28 03:27:56 in practice it's very different Sep 28 03:28:19 lilo is run before the kernel Sep 28 03:28:24 but wouldn't that be the boot loader's job, not the kernel? Sep 28 03:28:25 n8x0 bootmenu is run by init Sep 28 03:28:40 whoa... ok...... Sep 28 03:28:56 yeah, we had to do some kinda special hacks. Sep 28 03:29:11 it works though, and it's really not that much of a problem Sep 28 03:30:38 which is because of how the arm processor is physically built, i presume? Sep 28 03:30:49 or its memory mapper, or whatever.... Sep 28 03:31:19 nah, it's because we didn't want to mess with Nokia's closed source bootloaders Sep 28 03:31:40 plus, we need to have BME running, and it already runs out of initrd Sep 28 03:31:45 wtf? and then they take maemo and ship it with a commercial product?? Sep 28 03:31:53 they made maemo ... Sep 28 03:32:09 johnx, not that you can anyway. Not entirely sure about the n810, but on the n900 the bootloader is signed Sep 28 03:32:10 oh... but maemo is open source Sep 28 03:32:21 parts of it are Sep 28 03:32:49 anyways, they're a lot more friendly to the open source community than Sharp or Tivo or Sony or HTC Sep 28 03:33:13 or microsoft Sep 28 03:33:20 sry, brain capacity is at 5% right now Sep 28 03:33:24 :) Sep 28 03:33:26 johnx, ouch. Depending on your viewpoint, I guess :P Not saying they are open source friendly though Sep 28 03:33:36 aren't* Sep 28 03:33:59 Termana, the saga of Sharp and the Zaurus is a long and painful tale Sep 28 03:34:28 johnx, why do you keep thinking I'm talking about the Zaurus? :P I've never even owned one Sep 28 03:34:43 ah, well that's my experience with Sharp Sep 28 03:34:55 super cool hardware, totally awful to the community Sep 28 03:34:58 well, corporations are there to make money Sep 28 03:35:03 the opinion of 5% of its market who happen to be smart people doesn't affect their profit margins that much. Sep 28 03:35:31 right. and I try to patronize the companies that will treat me the way I want to be treated Sep 28 03:35:44 sometimes that even goes as far as recommending their products Sep 28 03:36:44 anyways, AFAIK, Nokia is currently one of the most (if not *the* most) open-source friendly phone maker right now Sep 28 03:37:26 like nvidia for 3d cards... which isnt saying much Sep 28 03:37:46 put out an open source driver so they can claim "Hey, we're open source!!" Sep 28 03:37:59 delt: don't you mean ATI? Sep 28 03:38:05 johnx: yeah, since OM not really *makes* phones any more Sep 28 03:38:07 nvidia hasn't put out anything, iirc Sep 28 03:38:39 ati's open source drivers are a joke. some 3rd party project tried to make some deceont ones iirc... havent been following that story for years Sep 28 03:38:59 DocScrutinizer, yeah, I was careful to say 'currently'. I really hope to see either more from OM or another OM-like startup Sep 28 03:39:12 qi-hardware Sep 28 03:39:20 nvidia's drivers aren't open source either, just the `wrapper' parts are that link to a binary blob Sep 28 03:39:27 anyway, at least nv's open src drivers got better over the next few years Sep 28 03:39:28 OM is 'dead' Sep 28 03:39:29 DocScrutinizer, mmmm...I *am* looking for good things out of them :) Sep 28 03:40:07 delt, the story is a lot like it used to be when I bought an original Radeon Sep 28 03:40:58 DocScrutinizer, aaah, it's super confusing to also have a company called pixel-qi that does small runs of hardware aimed at enthusiasts Sep 28 03:40:59 hmm a bit of advertising can't hurt - /join #qi-hardware Sep 28 03:41:01 had my geforce 6600gt for like 6 or 7 years... havent been playing games much recently Sep 28 03:41:29 mainly because of my concentration issues getting worse these past few years Sep 28 03:41:48 delt, 6600 here. :) might get a new video card early next year Sep 28 03:42:51 in first person shooters, by the time i get warmed up enough to play decently, my coordination skills are already going down fast, heh :/ Sep 28 03:43:11 http://en.qi-hardware.com/wiki/Main_Page Sep 28 03:43:49 DocScrutinizer, yeah. the nanonote. I was actually looking at that, around the 4th or 5th time delays were announced in pandora production Sep 28 03:44:16 32MB RAM / 336MHz MIPS doesn't quite do it for me though :| Sep 28 03:44:39 yeah it's really 'cheap' hardware Sep 28 03:44:59 looks really pretty though Sep 28 03:45:15 in comparison my pandora is a terrifying ugly thing Sep 28 03:46:59 ok, now i really need to sleep... thanks for the help everyone zZzZ Sep 28 03:47:06 'night delt Sep 28 03:47:14 nite Sep 28 03:53:17 jesus my 5 year old laptop had a 6600 Sep 28 03:53:30 i think it could play far cry Sep 28 03:54:01 and not much more :) Sep 28 03:54:33 my old system had a 6600GT too, except it was an MSI whose fan stopped operating while the card was going full tilt :( Sep 28 03:55:04 my 6600 is fanless Sep 28 03:55:16 major selling point at the time. that and it was $50 from woot Sep 28 03:55:21 heh Sep 28 03:55:32 yeah the fanless designs were impressive but scary to me Sep 28 03:55:39 that and my case couldn't fit the massive heatsink on it Sep 28 03:55:54 hey anyone got an idea on this? i am trying to build something with ESbox, its trying to chmod autogen.sh and says "Value too large for defined data type". that is only supposed to happen if you run 32-bit OS and throw it a 4GB file or something Sep 28 03:56:27 wmarone, oh, mine is actually a single slot design. really compact actually, though it was one of the later 6600 cards I think Sep 28 03:56:48 damn i had a fanless radeon 9700 Sep 28 03:57:13 bought like this gigantic two slabs of aluminum and a big heatpipe to connect them Sep 28 03:57:31 johnx: must've, friend of mine had a fanless and it had a huge heatsink on both sides of the card Sep 28 03:57:45 pretty sweet to have a high end card running silent Sep 28 03:58:07 now i water cool. but that's a pain... Sep 28 03:58:15 CreamyG, hmm, as to the problem. are you in ARMEL mode? Sep 28 03:58:49 i tried both armel and x86 as build targets and it fails. if i do it manually from scratchbox it works (past that anyways) Sep 28 03:59:11 its making an ssh connection and doing stuff using mounted remote shares or something f'ed up and confusing Sep 28 03:59:26 but the funny thing is i just told it to "pakcage a deb" and it did that fine Sep 28 03:59:47 ah, right, esbox Sep 28 03:59:55 i really hate computers, and these damn tools they make to simplify things Sep 28 04:00:10 it is like 3 days work to set up the build environment i swear Sep 28 04:00:25 maybe i'm just dumb :P Sep 28 04:00:29 nah Sep 28 04:00:47 I started my own linux distro rather than mess with scratchbox Sep 28 04:01:28 yeah it helps if you know what you're doing to begin with. i keep learning new stuff that is probably really obvious. Sep 28 04:02:13 oh well it's probably better use of my time than getting more gamerscore on my xbox Sep 28 04:02:27 even given that you know how to use binfmt_misc to make qemu run foreign arch binaries for you, nothing scratchbox does is 'obvious' or 'intuitive' Sep 28 04:02:47 do you really need esbox? or will plain scratchbox work? Sep 28 04:03:19 i already was using scratchbox, and then i thought, hey, i'd like to use eclipse instead of a normal text editor (ultraedit) Sep 28 04:03:36 bet that normal text editor looks awfully nice right now Sep 28 04:03:40 and the tutorial to set it up was for ESbox so i figured it might be cool if it can compile for me... Sep 28 04:03:47 yeah Sep 28 04:03:57 i wanted to do remote debugging and stuff if possible Sep 28 04:04:16 that stuff never works for me Sep 28 04:04:32 yeah, you have scratchbox working, even *that* never really worked 100% for me Sep 28 04:04:57 is this for maemo 4 or maemo 5. BTW? Sep 28 04:04:59 even microsoft, for visual studio, needs security certificts, domain names, all sorts of pain Sep 28 04:05:04 maemo 5 Sep 28 04:06:06 work in scratchbox, use scp to copy binaries to your N900, be happy Sep 28 04:06:15 I think you can get strace for the N900, so there's that at least Sep 28 04:06:42 yeah Sep 28 04:07:04 at least i got some uhhh convenient mount points for my 3 days work Sep 28 04:07:38 sshfs? Sep 28 04:08:16 it made me set up all these samba shares so now i have a c:\maemo that goes into scratchbox Sep 28 04:08:18 yayyyy Sep 28 04:08:38 O_o; Sep 28 04:08:55 for some reason drag and dropping files into vmware randomly fails... actually its pretty consistently failing. so i guess thats good Sep 28 04:09:06 * johnx just uses vim Sep 28 04:09:18 * johnx makes some joke a bout 'back in my day ... ' Sep 28 04:09:43 haha well whatever works... better than wasting time with these fancy IDEs Sep 28 04:09:53 who needs code completion anyways Sep 28 04:09:56 * CreamyG cries Sep 28 04:10:43 * wmarone wonders why fedora 12 hates virtualbox's 3D drivers Sep 28 04:10:46 vim has syntax hilighting, and code completion I think Sep 28 04:11:02 you can give it all that if you want Sep 28 04:11:10 I *rely* on the syntax hilighting for sure Sep 28 04:11:51 I also understand that it's not for everyone Sep 28 04:12:31 cool i'll look into that i guess Sep 28 04:12:53 uhm, if you've never used vim ... you might not like it all that much Sep 28 04:13:14 something like gedit or even emacs might be more interesting for you Sep 28 04:14:33 might as well see if i get get the .deb to spit out of ESbox though cuz that looks really close. Sep 28 04:14:47 vim is for people who say things like "Gee, I'm really tired of typing letters and having them appear in a text file. I wish I had to position my cursor with the h, j, k, and l keys then switch into insert mode to do that." Sep 28 04:15:03 haha i have used that before Sep 28 04:15:36 why should i have to move my right hand 10 centimeters to the right to be able to move the cursor? Sep 28 04:15:40 i'm too lazy for that Sep 28 04:15:59 * johnx lives in vim :) Sep 28 04:16:32 you have insert mode?-) Sep 28 04:17:04 visz, hmm? did I use the wrong term? Sep 28 04:19:37 i remember my dad using edlin, i don't think i ever figured that out either Sep 28 04:19:46 of course i would have been like 7 Sep 28 04:20:23 my mom tried to teach me DOS at about that age :) Sep 28 04:20:58 yeah my dad just had to show me how to play games... he made me all these batch files to load them. Sep 28 04:21:27 i swear half the crap i know about computers is probably from figuring out how to play games Sep 28 04:22:06 ahahaha Sep 28 04:22:08 yup Sep 28 04:22:15 it's a good bait and switch, isn't it? Sep 28 04:24:20 yeah it's funny now i have to help my dad play games Sep 28 04:25:33 so apparently i got about 20 more years to learn everything Sep 28 04:25:51 ahahaha Sep 28 04:26:00 yeah, good luck with that :) Sep 28 04:26:13 damn that isn't very long... yeah.. i better get this working tonight Sep 28 04:26:44 I have met people who claim to know everything about linux or unix, but those are usually the people who know the least :) Sep 28 04:27:51 You don't need to know everything about linux or unix to do interesting things anyhow ;) Sep 28 04:28:14 for sure :) Sep 28 04:28:31 and not 'knowing' all the answers can often lead to creative approaches to problems Sep 28 04:28:40 or a lot of pain and wasted time :) Sep 28 04:28:44 :P Sep 28 04:28:52 hah yeah Sep 28 04:29:06 i wish i worked somewhere where more people used unix Sep 28 04:29:18 it's hard enough to find someone that knows c or c++ Sep 28 04:29:27 send out some job apps :) Sep 28 04:30:01 yeah i probably will in a few months, i'm a contractor so i gotta re-apply for my job anyways :| Sep 28 04:30:23 CreamyG: go to embedded Sep 28 04:30:24 :) Sep 28 04:30:27 Besides, it's not fun if you know EVERYTHING. Constantly learning is what keeps it fun ;) :P Sep 28 04:30:29 more linux there Sep 28 04:30:33 and more c :) Sep 28 04:31:00 or get a job as a junior linux sys admin. lots of learning from cranky old unix guys Sep 28 04:31:08 haha just because i want to learn it doesn't mean i should try and get a job yet Sep 28 04:31:17 i'd probably fail bad lol Sep 28 04:31:23 do you learn quick? Sep 28 04:31:27 learning is a bit overrated Sep 28 04:31:35 makes u feel like you are moving fowradr Sep 28 04:31:36 i only learn by doing Sep 28 04:31:42 but invariably accomplishes little for others Sep 28 04:31:46 its a very selfish thing Sep 28 04:31:47 i can't learn much from reading Sep 28 04:31:55 more important is to actually PRODUCE something Sep 28 04:32:06 raster, need to learn before you can teach or produce though :P Sep 28 04:32:08 u may or may not leanr a thing or 2 in the process Sep 28 04:32:18 raster, it's like saying eating is selfish Sep 28 04:32:30 johnx: yes. i guess i'm referring to the poeple who leanr a new programming lang every year or 2 Sep 28 04:32:35 and contiunually change the langs they use Sep 28 04:32:42 or start new projetcs just to use a new lang Sep 28 04:32:51 in the end they cycle so much they accomplish little Sep 28 04:32:55 they know a little of many langs Sep 28 04:33:01 but they are masters of none of them Sep 28 04:33:04 sounds like me Sep 28 04:33:11 jack of all trades, master of none Sep 28 04:33:21 you should find 1 u like Sep 28 04:33:25 that also is practical Sep 28 04:33:26 and stick to it Sep 28 04:33:31 become a master of it Sep 28 04:33:31 johnx, :D Sep 28 04:33:35 raster, meh Sep 28 04:33:37 u accomplish much more Sep 28 04:33:46 in terms of actually producing something Sep 28 04:33:59 my job dictates what I learn Sep 28 04:34:23 want me to tell my boss "I know all of our projects are in PHP, but I really want to become a master of ruby, so I'm writing my part in ruby." Sep 28 04:34:37 yeah. that'd go over really well Sep 28 04:34:57 johnx: u took it the wrong way Sep 28 04:35:09 1 u like that is ALSO practical Sep 28 04:35:11 plus, too many people that only know one thing really well are missing the big picture Sep 28 04:35:20 what is practical for u then would be php Sep 28 04:35:28 so become a master at it Sep 28 04:35:39 onc eu are a master the lang ceases to become a barrier to anything Sep 28 04:35:58 great, but if I want to hack someone else's code to do what I want, and that code is in C, rewriting it in PHP is less practical than learning a bit of C and makign a tweak Sep 28 04:36:03 u read code like u read "english" Sep 28 04:36:10 u dotn care about comments - the code has all u need. Sep 28 04:36:27 it's all about having a lot of tools to choose from, not how you acquire those tools Sep 28 04:36:32 "if you want to" Sep 28 04:36:38 everyone learns to become language agnostic differently Sep 28 04:36:39 but do you have to? Sep 28 04:36:43 is it part of your every day? Sep 28 04:36:59 johnx: You'd be surprised how well that goes over Sep 28 04:37:13 ds3, hmm? Sep 28 04:37:29 johnx: I have cleaned up many projects where that is pretty much what happened Sep 28 04:38:04 people becoming 'language agnostic' and writing python the way they learned to write C? :) Sep 28 04:38:17 no Sep 28 04:38:26 ah, then I'm lost Sep 28 04:38:44 so called embedded systems with TCL, Python, bash, sh, and who knows what other scripting langauges Sep 28 04:38:46 neing langauge agnostic is like thinking u'll be .. language agnostic Sep 28 04:38:50 (as in human language) Sep 28 04:38:55 u never will be Sep 28 04:38:57 all apparently done cause someone thought it was interesting to do it that way Sep 28 04:39:00 or very very very very few will be Sep 28 04:39:05 everyone will have a preferred lang Sep 28 04:39:06 eg english Sep 28 04:39:07 or german Sep 28 04:39:09 or japanese Sep 28 04:39:10 etc. Sep 28 04:39:18 they have a native lang they learned first Sep 28 04:39:22 or one they simply know best Sep 28 04:39:44 very very very few master enough human langs to "be agnostic as to which one they speak/use for anything" Sep 28 04:39:51 johnx: so just because you ask that, don't assume it'd be rejected outright :D Sep 28 04:40:26 ds3, sounds like most linux distros these days :) so I guess if I plan to use Linux and modify it to do what I want I should probably know a little of everything :D Sep 28 04:40:50 nothing wrong with learning a lot of things Sep 28 04:40:58 but learnig a lo9t just for the sake of it is not so useful Sep 28 04:41:12 and learning a whole lot of langs and not being master of any is not so good either Sep 28 04:41:16 at least be the master of 1 Sep 28 04:41:16 :) Sep 28 04:41:26 fine. I've mastered bash Sep 28 04:41:31 hahahahaha Sep 28 04:41:33 :) Sep 28 04:41:36 g'mornin raster, johnx Sep 28 04:41:40 RST38h: booo! Sep 28 04:41:50 RST38h, m00f Sep 28 04:42:52 raster, I'm a sys admin. I hack where I need to, in whatever language is required. I don't have any big outside of work programming projects, so I mainly just use whatever programming language or technology I need to to get the job done Sep 28 04:43:28 johnx: i guess being an admin is different. Sep 28 04:43:58 though, besides bash, I'm awfully fond of scheme. I'd love to do more scheme, but I'm not going to invent a project that calls for scheme just to use it Sep 28 04:44:13 my interest is in accomplishing things, not learning programming for its own sake Sep 28 04:44:16 * RST38h suggests that knowledge of a particular programming language does not make you a good software developer Sep 28 04:44:26 so I guess I can agree with your original point, but not your second one Sep 28 04:44:34 the guys designing/building the cars need much deeper knowledge than the mechanics fixing them up when they break - but the mechanics need to know about more than just the few cars they work on Sep 28 04:44:39 as they may get anything into the shop Sep 28 04:44:41 Knowledge of how to write good software and how to analyze it for faults does Sep 28 04:44:53 raster, thank you! perfect analogy for how I think Sep 28 04:45:29 RST38h: lang plays a big part in that Sep 28 04:45:35 as along with lang comes dev/debug env Sep 28 04:45:37 and tools Sep 28 04:45:38 raster:Some part, yes Sep 28 04:45:45 will u use gdb? or printf? Sep 28 04:45:53 if its python.. u arent going to use gdb Sep 28 04:45:55 what do u do? Sep 28 04:46:01 werll u can still "printf debug" there Sep 28 04:46:02 etc. etc. Sep 28 04:46:04 raster: printf() works pretty much everywhere Sep 28 04:46:15 in fact, when you say gdb, I think printf :) Sep 28 04:46:18 but in general debugging code well involves knowing the code weell Sep 28 04:46:20 * johnx goes off to learn jquery and mongoDB for fun Sep 28 04:46:49 printf don't work too well if you are just debugging the UART for the output of the printf ;) Sep 28 04:47:15 ds3: special case Sep 28 04:47:30 * RST38h used LEDs. And a beeper. :) Sep 28 04:47:33 RST38h: depends on your line of work.. some of us bring up boards where that is common Sep 28 04:49:18 yea, I do that from time to time Sep 28 04:49:44 but usually, you get *some* printfs :) Sep 28 05:02:22 I wish I was that lucky... Sep 28 05:02:45 I'm happy to get random trash :D Sep 28 05:09:24 if you have got at least some video buffer, implementing printfs to it israther easy Sep 28 05:14:32 only problem is during those times, the timing of the video signals is uncertain nor is all the enables for it Sep 28 05:30:58 http://cache.gawkerassets.com/assets/images/4/2010/09/500x_cuban-tree-frog_3627_600x450.jpg Sep 28 05:37:27 RST38h: lol Sep 28 05:47:07 where are the sms's stored in the filesystem? Sep 28 05:47:22 I presume in tracker Sep 28 05:47:50 (so looks for a sqllite file somewhere in the homedir I would guess) Sep 28 05:49:25 I asssumed a sql in /home/user , but can't see anything obvious Sep 28 05:52:55 jpinx-eeepc: el.db or similar in ~/.rtcom-eventlogger or something along those lines Sep 28 05:53:43 hey - out of curiosity, does anyone know offhand if GNU screen has been ported to maemo? Sep 28 05:56:44 Morning all ! Sep 28 05:57:39 gday Khertan Sep 28 05:58:21 lbt, are you here ? Sep 28 05:58:31 hi MrPPS Sep 28 06:24:55 I want to scrobble to my last.fm account, which player i shoud use? any suggestion? Sep 28 06:29:36 Peyman: default player works with last-fmscrobbler installed Sep 28 06:35:51 petteri, "E: couldnt find package last-fmscrobbler" Sep 28 06:36:39 hmm.. Sep 28 06:37:04 http://maemo.org/packages/view/mafw-lastfm Sep 28 06:37:07 that one Sep 28 06:43:58 * johnx is compiling a 'database server' that links against xulrunner, is worried slightly Sep 28 06:44:20 like qt that links against gtk.. Sep 28 06:44:48 but only so qt can dance around in gtk's skin and impersonate it Sep 28 06:44:58 which is totally not creepy Sep 28 06:47:37 ow :) tnx petteri Sep 28 07:02:26 totally random question: does anyone have experience with MongoDB? Sep 28 07:04:28 with maemo? Sep 28 07:04:37 just in general Sep 28 07:04:41 off-topic question :) Sep 28 07:05:13 not more than google :) Sep 28 07:05:41 was just curious Sep 28 07:06:08 I'm waiting for it to compile on my server reading the documentation thinking "this is too goo to be true ..." Sep 28 07:06:36 well if u don't need the speed and scalability, it is good Sep 28 07:10:36 heh. I just wish I knew how much speed and scalability I actually need Sep 28 07:10:49 and how much I'm just worrying about a future that will never come Sep 28 08:28:41 Morning, all Sep 28 08:30:28 good morning Sep 28 08:32:42 Jaffa: unping, I remember pinging you but I can't remember why anymore Sep 28 08:33:01 I also fail in channels. Sep 28 08:33:05 more coffee! Sep 28 08:33:59 Myrtti: I appreciated feeling wanted, if nothing else ;-) Sep 28 08:38:43 * RST38h moos thoughtfully Sep 28 08:44:16 RST38h, what do you ponder? Sep 28 08:44:40 johnx: The End. Sep 28 08:44:43 =) Sep 28 08:44:52 the seattle radio station? Sep 28 08:45:02 ahha Sep 28 08:45:20 not much to ponder there, though Sep 28 08:45:35 johnx: Does it broadcast appropriate content, or is it only the name? =) Sep 28 08:45:50 uhm, it's mostly alternative stuff Sep 28 08:46:02 but it's 107.7 so it's 'the end' of the dial Sep 28 08:46:06 back when radios had dials Sep 28 08:46:51 so no, they don't generally talk about how the world will end in december 2012 (right?) Sep 28 08:46:52 * RST38h tries to remember if FM radios ever had dials...actually yes, they did =) Sep 28 08:47:03 this is the end... Sep 28 08:47:03 my only friend, the end... Sep 28 08:47:09 Why wait until until december 2012 Sep 28 08:47:21 yeah 2012 will end then Sep 28 08:47:27 no chance avoiding that Sep 28 08:47:54 RST38h, I need a couple more years to figure out how to get off this rock if everyone's hell bent on things coming to a screeching halt ... Sep 28 08:49:56 johnx: Once you get off, what are you gonna do? Outside is dark and cold and empty and may well be just a glorified wall of a fish tank Sep 28 08:50:35 haven't gotten to planning that part yet Sep 28 08:56:05 johnx: planning switch from it to sw development, btw? Sep 28 08:56:36 I already did kinda Sep 28 08:56:44 I'm about half and half Sep 28 08:57:10 webdev stuff. a lot of people here probably wouldn't consider it 'real' development :P Sep 28 08:57:40 naaah, not hard enough :) Sep 28 08:57:57 XSL. I rest my case Sep 28 08:58:24 I agree. it doesn't *need* to be hard, but we find a way *rolls eyes* Sep 28 08:59:31 hrhr Sep 28 09:00:07 well you could put webservices into "webdev" too, and depending on what you want to achieve it can be pretty hard Sep 28 09:00:44 it's basically an internal scheduling/resource/time-tracking/CRM/sales app Sep 28 09:01:37 johnx: *avoid* XSL Sep 28 09:01:55 johnx: No, really. It is the most useless time waste I have ever done Sep 28 09:02:10 no kidding Sep 28 09:02:19 luckily only one of our 'sites' uses it Sep 28 09:02:25 unluckily that site is customer facing Sep 28 09:02:37 ... and needs to be updated/revised sometimes Sep 28 09:02:38 johnx: Replace with PERL script asap Sep 28 09:02:53 not an option. anyways, it's not *that* bad Sep 28 09:02:56 just a bit ... weird Sep 28 09:03:12 (and yes, I am fully aware of how not ideal this solution is, but still better than XSL) Sep 28 09:03:12 the PHP templating system they insist on using is almost as weird as XSL really Sep 28 09:03:57 Really? Must have taken them time to approach such a pinnacle... Sep 28 09:04:31 http://ets.sourceforge.net/ Sep 28 09:04:39 actually, it's unmaintained for 6 years :) Sep 28 09:06:13 johnx: mhm, kinda xmlish, but not as bad as xsl :) Sep 28 09:06:39 just one more *&#$ing dead-end syntax to memorize Sep 28 09:08:38 I don't mind weird syntax, but PHP is a *#&$#ing templating language. That's it's whole reason for existing Sep 28 09:13:37 johnx: Yes, but there is no fun in that! :) Sep 28 09:13:46 [also see: build systems] Sep 28 09:14:36 it's very fun. I write some things and they show up on the screen. I was kinda thinking this web dev stuff was kinda fun except for this useless (#*$&ing template system Sep 28 09:14:45 * johnx had to start learning it in-depth today Sep 28 09:14:53 totally not bitter. not even a bit Sep 28 09:16:39 Anyone here having trouble reaching gmail w/ microb? Sep 28 09:17:54 Data Transfer Interrupted Sep 28 09:17:54 The connection to mail.google.com has terminated unexpectedly. Some data may have been transferred. Sep 28 09:17:54 The browser connected successfully, but the connection was interrupted while transferring information. Please try again. Sep 28 09:17:54 * Are you unable to browse other sites? Check the computer's network connection. Sep 28 09:17:54 * Still having trouble? Consult your network administrator or Internet provider for assistance. Sep 28 09:18:04 timeless, works for me Sep 28 09:18:20 K Sep 28 09:18:27 So, have you consulted your network administrator? Sep 28 09:18:31 spam :| Sep 28 09:18:39 I mean, before pasting it here... Sep 28 09:18:55 hint: he doesn't mean me :) Sep 28 09:19:49 Mohammad has booted Ubuntu mobile edition on his N900 Sep 28 09:19:51 I need a similar disclaimer to what lawyers use "I am a net admin. I'm not *your* net admin, therefore this doesn't constitute a recommended workaround ... " Sep 28 09:20:05 RST38h, cool. working GLES? Sep 28 09:20:06 Looks pretty nice too Sep 28 09:20:11 http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=58083 Sep 28 09:20:28 Dunno, do not think GLES will be a problem. BME and phone will be though Sep 28 09:20:35 RAM usage as well :) Sep 28 09:20:43 that's the 'netbook' interface Sep 28 09:20:48 so full gnome Sep 28 09:21:01 BME isn't so much a problem if you have a linux glibc Sep 28 09:21:04 it's mostly ok with 512MB of RAM Sep 28 09:21:20 looks very pretty in screenshots though Sep 28 09:21:41 * johnx is soooo glad he didn't wait for ubuntu to do their own 'handheld' interface Sep 28 09:24:16 johnx: Ubuntu netbook stuff looks ok to me Sep 28 09:24:34 Stskeeps: GLES stuff is just a few libs that can be dropped in, right? Sep 28 09:24:50 fairly easily to adapt Sep 28 09:25:10 RST38h, it's ok that it will want to take 512MB of RAM to boot to the desktop? Sep 28 09:25:14 but he has to be on 2.6.35 Sep 28 09:25:21 on a device with 256MB of RAM ... Sep 28 09:25:22 both for gles and bme Sep 28 09:25:30 johnx: Well I am not going to use it so it is ok :) Sep 28 09:25:58 RST38h, yeah. this is basically where I was with XFCE4 on the N8x0 3 (dear god it really is 3) years ago Sep 28 09:26:16 johnx: have you regained your sanity yet? Sep 28 09:26:36 heh Sep 28 09:26:38 dunno. I'm working on yet another forked distro it seems Sep 28 09:26:41 not a good sign Sep 28 09:26:46 :P Sep 28 09:26:52 Sts: He is doing XSL so it is arhetorical question Sep 28 09:27:23 I'd like to think I'm relatively sane compared to other people who can hack around in XSL Sep 28 09:27:30 that'd be a good point on my resume ... Sep 28 09:38:38 how to take a snap shot of the N900 screen? Sep 28 09:43:04 smhar: use two mirror and the internal camera Sep 28 09:43:12 haha Sep 28 09:43:33 ctrl+shift+p Sep 28 09:44:53 Appiah, very difficult combinations, I have big figures :-) Sep 28 09:45:08 not that hard Sep 28 09:45:24 Use both hands :) Sep 28 09:45:58 place it down , dont hold it ^^ Sep 28 09:48:10 Appiah, managed, thanks Sep 28 09:48:26 well its a keycombo you dont do by accident Sep 28 09:58:01 ~seen lbt Sep 28 09:58:06 lbt is currently on #maemo (17h 53m 50s) #meego (17h 53m 50s). Has said a total of 2 messages. Is idling for 1h 24m 51s, last said: 'hey Jaffa'. Sep 28 09:58:22 hey Khertan Sep 28 09:59:14 :) Sep 28 09:59:18 hi lbt Sep 28 09:59:24 i ve a question about the obs Sep 28 09:59:36 is it possible to create new target ? Sep 28 10:00:10 the qt version available in the meego current is still an preview 4.7 release Sep 28 10:00:22 and contain bugs that prevent me compiling pyside Sep 28 10:00:26 ah, a fresh import? Sep 28 10:01:13 nag me in ~8hrs (after work) :) Sep 28 10:01:33 xfade is on hols so .... Sep 28 10:01:51 ah, a fresh import? <<< i didn't know how to do an import Sep 28 10:01:57 and if i can do it :) Sep 28 10:02:03 no, OS level Sep 28 10:02:06 ok i ll bother you later ;) Sep 28 10:02:18 s/bother/borring Sep 28 10:02:57 * lbt does not want to be borringed ! Sep 28 10:05:33 Method: Fractional Transfer STV with Droop-Static-Whole threshold -- pfft, if I had known that 3 months before elections, I probably had managed to know what exactly I'm voting (guess it takes 3 months to wrap your head around it) Sep 28 10:05:45 :) Sep 28 10:08:31 honestly, I live in Bavaria - check for all the election systems we got here. I know about situations where you have to vote for the one you basically don't want to see in your government Sep 28 10:12:31 I hope next council elections will get more lead time to inform people, to check candidates, to sort out token shipping (what if somebody is is holiday for 2 weeks?) Sep 28 10:13:42 how bad can bavaria be? where i live, we vote on average 2 to 3 times a year, and typically there are 10-20+ things on the ballot Sep 28 10:13:53 in 2008, there were 4 elections Sep 28 10:14:06 c'mon 443 ballots total - that's a shame and you have to think about the why and how to improve Sep 28 10:14:59 ieatlint: on some elections we could make 60+ checkmarks on the ballot Sep 28 10:15:01 yeah, how about having candidates put together a short bio to actually read... i think only one candidate even said a word on a blog that was aggregated by planet.maemo.org Sep 28 10:15:35 it's caled "panachieren & kumulieren" Sep 28 10:16:19 oh, check marks are different :P Sep 28 10:16:46 the last election here, had things like "city council" where you're given a list of 30 names and asked to check 12 of them Sep 28 10:16:48 when you give candidate #5 of party A 4 votes, as the first 4 candidates will make it anyway Sep 28 10:21:10 so e.g. a vote for jaffa might be wasted if you think he'll make it anyway into council, and you have to think about using your votes more specific than let them be redsitributed from jaffa to the other candidates by"Fractional Transfer STV with Droop-Static-Whole threshold" Sep 28 10:21:37 too complicated Sep 28 10:21:54 But I would like to see the "Against all candidates" option on the ballot Sep 28 10:22:11 RST38h: then speak up for another system to evaluate ballots Sep 28 10:22:44 * SpeedEvil is reminded of http://xkcd.com/429/ Sep 28 10:25:36 hi, anyone knows what's th n900 wifi chip is? Sep 28 10:26:00 wl1251 Sep 28 10:28:53 "Atheists, agnostics most knowledgeable about religion, survey says" Sep 28 10:29:40 heh, and coincidentally, atheists and agnostics most likely to be intelligent/educated Sep 28 10:31:04 <|187|> damn i love this phone - just sittin at a lake and havin a beer :) Sep 28 10:32:48 err |187| sittin @ a lake and havin a beer, sure, but stare into your phone there? Sep 28 10:33:33 <|187|> jup gotta mail some shit Sep 28 10:33:44 RST38h: johnx: life could be easy if only I had access to the sourcecode Sep 28 10:33:57 <|187|> display could be one size bigger Sep 28 10:34:04 <|187|> :) Sep 28 10:34:08 doc, the sourcecode, the sourceode of life? ;) Sep 28 10:34:14 sure Sep 28 10:34:43 <|187|> + the damn battery drain.. Sep 28 10:35:09 ??? Sep 28 10:35:34 <|187|> was readin about some pr 1.3 .. is that confirmed somewhere? Sep 28 10:35:43 ~pr1.3 Sep 28 10:35:44 rumour has it, pr1.3 is a ban'able subject now..... Sep 28 10:35:52 Alas, no. Sep 28 10:36:02 <|187|> ok Sep 28 10:36:07 there are bits of updated code popping up in various repos Sep 28 10:36:10 <|187|> nevermind ?) Sep 28 10:36:13 but nothing like a schedule Sep 28 10:36:40 there NEVER is a schedule, you know? Sep 28 10:37:08 Nokia isn't doing schedules - they dams sure know why Sep 28 10:37:37 because they want to be able to drop it if they decide not to release. Sep 28 10:37:55 for example Sep 28 10:38:06 <|187|> always lave the doors open to all sides Sep 28 10:38:32 other reasons might include "it's more work to estimate how long a task takes than to do the task" Sep 28 10:39:18 announced events tend to get spoiled by competitors Sep 28 10:40:27 nothing is worse than a bitching customer waiting for a scheduled date and then find himself on a delay Sep 28 10:40:48 and other rationales Sep 28 10:41:54 what's the use of a schedule anyway? Sep 28 10:42:34 tbh I fail to see a single benefit Sep 28 10:45:21 SpeedEvil: (want to be able) do you think if they published a schedule they would decide differently? They just get more flames when nevertheless dropping Sep 28 10:47:47 au contraire Nokia kicking off and participating in something like that tmo PR1.2 thread might actually cause delays in and maybe even drop of development Sep 28 10:49:36 the nice bonmot "don't ask! each time it gets asked about, they postpone it for another week" isn't complete nonsense ;-) Sep 28 10:51:08 Hi, I know it will take some time until source code will become availible of the injection driver. I don't have the binaries, but would there be a way to patch them to work with the default kernel? Sep 28 10:52:22 Would changing vermagic be enough to load them or is there some integrity check in kernel modules? Sep 28 10:52:33 hmm, something up wit repository.maemo.org extras repo, ham is whining about subprocess gzip returned an error code Sep 28 10:53:48 And could they be used as drop-in replacement or do they have to be inserted manuelly? Sep 28 10:54:11 jaska, I'm getting gzip error codes for sdk tools repo Sep 28 10:54:28 gzip errors on extras repos for me :| Sep 28 10:54:32 (on phone) Sep 28 10:55:42 ;file Packages.gz Sep 28 10:55:43 Packages.gz: HTML document text Sep 28 10:55:44 hmm. Sep 28 10:56:35 http://sprunge.us/DGXK Sep 28 10:56:38 gives me that Sep 28 10:57:13 tobis87: if changing vermagic is enough, then you also could use modprobe --force Sep 28 10:57:30 instead Sep 28 10:58:11 same with Packages.. but Packages.bz2 gives the "real" file Sep 28 10:58:31 if they were insane enough to change the ABI in a non compatible way, then too bad Sep 28 11:00:03 hmm, mxr brken, repos broken. I wonder what's going on behind the scenes there Sep 28 11:00:15 * jaska shakes fist :| Sep 28 11:01:10 maybe a gift for new council, to make them feel welcome Sep 28 11:01:14 :-P Sep 28 11:01:52 DocScrutinizer: Does the modprobe on the n900 support it? Would you not have to load them manuell everytime? Yes, if the ABI is different I'm out of luck, but I don't have them yet I just ask in advance. Sep 28 11:02:23 wouldnt have noticed but someone actually sent me an mms and the fmms i had was old and didnt work :) Sep 28 11:03:20 sorry I can't answer in advance. But I asked exactly same thing to guys who own the binary Sep 28 11:12:04 DocScrutinizer51: Ok, I will wait for the source then. But I would already be lucky to have what crashhandie suggested, the driver as source with the injection stuff as inline asm. Just out of curious if I overwrite the vermagic string 2.6.28.10power40-wl1 with 2.6.28-omap1, should I override the rest with 00's or delete the remaining characters? Sep 28 11:12:52 no idea Sep 28 11:13:59 usually overwriting end of string storage area with 0x00 is 'the right thing' Sep 28 11:21:35 depends on the used string type. For C it's 0x00 terminated. But there are other implementations with length pointer word at head of string Sep 28 11:22:04 there's languages that don't even have that Sep 28 11:22:13 DocScrutinizer51: Ok, I will try to fiddle a bit with vermagic. I still remember that I had overwritten sv_cheats in Sof2.exe with 0x00's years ago. :) Sep 28 11:22:25 * satmd remembers some sun with SAP's R3 language Sep 28 11:22:31 -sun+fun Sep 28 11:23:04 fixed length strings that can overrun the buffer, overflowing into the next variable Sep 28 11:23:09 repos do work if you pull the debs by hand so no biggie Sep 28 11:23:27 *cough* Sep 28 11:24:12 (the story was about a string being to short 1 char, containing "wednesdaY"... the Y became the answer for the next Y/N question, f'cking up the accounting system if the 15th of a month was a wednesday) Sep 28 11:32:35 so far for auto-upgrading kernels, 9.04 update-manager took me to a non-pae kernel after I specifically install one a couple of upgrades before Sep 28 11:32:50 anyway, at least I can go back to tinkering with USB networking Sep 28 11:33:24 g'afternoon Sep 28 11:33:26 all Sep 28 11:37:44 LOL Sep 28 11:37:53 satmd: really nice one Sep 28 11:39:50 DocScrutinizer: what did I miss? :) Sep 28 11:40:12 sivang: the link in topic to chanlogs? :-P Sep 28 11:42:32 or this month's 15th? Sep 28 11:43:59 hi Sep 28 11:45:57 even blackberry playbook has flash 10. it is amazing how nokia managed to suck so ultimately. Sep 28 11:48:10 is it troll time? Sep 28 11:49:51 does blackberry playbook has terminal with root access? Sep 28 11:50:04 does it dual-boot? Sep 28 11:51:37 dual? Sep 28 11:51:45 regarding flash, I am optimistic about it in the next firmware (PR 1.3) update. Even if not, I won't be that disappointed Sep 28 11:51:46 hmmpf Sep 28 11:51:58 we have 4 working-ish OSes that can boot on the n900 Sep 28 11:52:10 ~pr1.3 Sep 28 11:52:11 yeah, I should have said multi-boot actually. my mistake Sep 28 11:52:11 it has been said that pr1.3 is a ban'able subject now..... Sep 28 11:52:49 btw, how abt the USB Host Mode thing. Did anyone try it out here? Sep 28 11:53:06 It works for some people. Sep 28 11:53:09 With some devices. Sep 28 11:53:18 It is a fundamentally unreliable method. Sep 28 11:53:47 oh, so there is some progress on this front then. Thats amazig Sep 28 12:02:56 there's ""always been progress"" :-P admittedly at a non measurable rate sometimes - like on geotectonics Sep 28 12:04:46 but the recent "progress" is just replay of the "great progress" that triggered "USB host mode (coming soon)" tmo thread, though on a wider 'user'-basis - which is exactly what leads directly to same headache we had when primary hostmode tmo thread was closed Sep 28 12:05:26 tmo is evil Sep 28 12:07:38 I wish to see a fully implemented host mode solution for the N900. I miss that feature from N800 Sep 28 12:07:53 Har dere mista cookien? Sep 28 12:07:58 copying stuff from pendrives on the go is really useful Sep 28 12:08:06 Sorry #fail Sep 28 12:17:17 hi, anyone buyed from this site http://nokia-n900.com/ ?? Is it safe? Sep 28 12:19:01 don't know, but i wouldn't buy stuff from a blog.. Sep 28 12:20:31 my rule of thumb concerning buying is that either they're well established or I know where they live Sep 28 12:20:34 :) Sep 28 12:20:40 Are they actually selling? Sep 28 12:20:47 the current hype caused some real progress though: I finally accepted nobody but me seems to look into that magic spell that's echoing random commands to usb sysfs debug nodes while randomly wiggling with VBUS and bme. So, as I got logs of a successful session now, I had a look into it, learned it's absolutely not what we planned to do, learned it's actually proving feasibility of the fake-HNP fallback alternative, though it's done on mere Sep 28 12:20:48 cargo cult programming here, and finally took a new effort to implement proper hostmode poc via sane cmds to same sysfs nodes, which seems to succeed or at least showed quite encouraging results so far Sep 28 12:20:53 you missed out 'know where they live, and can take them in a fight' Sep 28 12:21:12 Woo! Sep 28 12:23:12 hmm, so ubuntu keeps crashing :/ Sep 28 12:23:38 my big failure was to assume with that initial success back in may(? my part in the whole opeation would've been mostly done and others would take over now Sep 28 12:24:22 this never happened though Sep 28 12:25:23 DocScrutinizer: you mean, the maemo project? Sep 28 12:25:35 I mean hostmode h-e-n Sep 28 12:26:52 ah,, that one. Sep 28 12:31:30 my current guess is we're some 2..4 week from a really stable hostmode (basic function to kick N900 into host role) and then it's all a simple port-the-drivers after that, like on every other linux system Sep 28 12:31:42 but don't quote me on that Sep 28 12:32:02 * SpeedEvil slashdots DocScrutinizer. Sep 28 12:32:11 :-D Sep 28 12:32:28 I hate the fact I've had no time to do stuff this year. Sep 28 12:32:38 http://www.flickr.com/photos/14560445@N08/5027602679/#/photos/14560445@N08/5027602679/lightbox/ Sep 28 12:32:42 related pic is related. Sep 28 12:34:38 woah wtf is that Sep 28 12:34:59 SpeedEvil: ho a bridge in a garden. Nice but useless Sep 28 12:35:21 yeah - well - it wasn't my idea. Sep 28 12:35:34 kerio: I'm tidying up all the stuff below the tarp. Sep 28 12:35:39 It got thrown in there. Sep 28 12:36:13 SpeedEvil: wow Sep 28 12:36:26 SpeedEvil: but that much less than what my dad has in his yard... Sep 28 12:36:37 That is one tiny part. Sep 28 12:36:57 SpeedEvil: the grass is so green in the UK.. Sep 28 12:37:07 Scotland. Sep 28 12:37:10 We do rain well. Sep 28 12:37:17 SpeedEvil: ah, even better, Sep 28 12:37:41 SpeedEvil, is that your yard? Sep 28 12:37:46 SpeedEvil: you at least has grass, the ground in my father's yard is full of scrap metal and old jeep parts. Sep 28 12:37:46 yes Sep 28 12:38:10 I would be in to come and help tidying , Edinburgh? Sep 28 12:38:28 Naah - I'm actually mostly finished on the outside. Sep 28 12:38:30 SpeedEvil, wow the place looks amazing! Sep 28 12:38:45 SpeedEvil, well, except for the mess, but other than that. Sep 28 12:38:53 SpeedEvil: indeed. people don't appreciate the rain enough :) Sep 28 12:39:01 SpeedEvil: the grass looks tasty Sep 28 12:39:04 Mum passed on last year, and I've been trying to get the garden into a sane state. It had been largely neglected other than major projects in the past few years. Sep 28 12:39:15 All of the flowers I haven't touched. Sep 28 12:39:21 I don't know what most are. Sep 28 12:39:31 That's for next year. Sep 28 12:39:40 SpeedEvil: oh, sorry to hear. Sep 28 12:40:08 wow, http://www.flickr.com/photos/14560445@N08/5028190910/lightbox/ Sep 28 12:40:26 hair cows Sep 28 12:40:35 They are picturesque. Highland Cattle. Sep 28 12:40:46 Not mine. Sep 28 12:40:52 * sivang loves Scotland Sep 28 12:41:00 the airport is so cute and small Sep 28 12:41:20 http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc1/hs183.snc1/6088_1156482441944_1524226484_384066_4921771_n.jpg <- me feeding a hair cow Sep 28 12:41:27 I hadn't really looked at that closely. Sep 28 12:41:32 in scotland Sep 28 12:41:37 The lighting on the bull works quite well. Sep 28 12:41:53 their hair cut is reminding me Rod Stewart Sep 28 12:42:34 I suspect it's probably a steer not a bull, I diddn't closely inspect. Sep 28 12:44:59 Hello again Sep 28 12:45:48 hey, was wondering, on the n810 Sep 28 12:46:35 would it be possible to use the 2GB flash as root (ext2/3fs) and completely forget about the 256 "internal" partition? Sep 28 12:46:45 yes, search for clone to sd Sep 28 12:47:41 problem i'm having is that the internal 2gb doesn't get mounted until the graphic interface shows up Sep 28 12:47:59 if it's a fixed, internal storage device, wtf? Sep 28 12:49:02 unless they just copied the same config files from the older one (n800?) and didnt bother to change the fstab & whatever Sep 28 12:49:23 Stskeeps, is gypsy-daemon closed or open? Sep 28 12:49:33 open, afaik Sep 28 12:50:01 * ShadowJK is trying to debug external gps Sep 28 12:50:07 ...which would be possible, seeing that the internal 2gb is "mmc1" and the sd slot is "mmc2" Sep 28 12:50:14 s/possible/probable/ Sep 28 12:50:15 delt meant: ...which would be probable, seeing that the internal 2gb is "mmc1" and the sd slot is "mmc2" Sep 28 12:50:27 oh yeah, the smart sed-bot =-) Sep 28 12:50:57 always corrects what we... sed :D Sep 28 12:51:23 well sed delt! Sep 28 12:52:33 hehe Sep 28 12:53:10 yeah, was thinking about 08:46 < delt> [...] use the 2GB flash as root (ext2/3fs) and completely forget about the 256 "internal" partition Sep 28 12:53:39 mainly so that if some shit like this happens again, i can at least mount it and correct the problem without flashing the OS to the n810 again Sep 28 12:54:29 and erasing everything Sep 28 12:57:16 (mount it from the PC i mean) - i just learned yesterday that enabling "rd mode" makes the 2gb partition show up as a storage device through USB Sep 28 12:57:30 * sivang notes clearly N900 is not built for filesystem intensive operations. Sep 28 13:00:50 sivang nice name... are you from Cambodia? Sep 28 13:01:27 next guess, burma (birman) or laos Sep 28 13:01:40 delt: actually no, Israel. Why nice? Some Indian people told me there's something close to that name there, and in japan they have "Shiban-san" Sep 28 13:02:08 delt: the name of 5th month in the hebrew calander Sep 28 13:02:32 oh. nisan is which month? Sep 28 13:02:40 (i dont remember them) Sep 28 13:04:16 sivang resembles the name of a girl i knew in college, and in laos, family names that begin or end with "vong" (or sometimes vang but not often) are quite common Sep 28 13:04:54 so, was just curious Sep 28 13:05:06 delt: ah, well the 'g Sep 28 13:05:12 delt: is actually for my surname Sep 28 13:05:14 : Sep 28 13:05:15 :) Sep 28 13:07:30 ah i see. thats why google found like 2 matches for +"jewish calendar" +sivang +nisan Sep 28 13:07:56 s/sivang/sivan, and ---> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hebrew_calendar Sep 28 13:08:11 / Sep 28 13:08:40 (so that the bot doesnt repeat after me, and a \ would have just looked retarded there) Sep 28 13:09:39 delt: exaclty Sep 28 13:10:56 so sivan (or siwan) is the 3rd month in the ancient hebrew calendar Sep 28 13:11:24 3rd? Sep 28 13:11:30 * ShadowJK wonders if search on mxr.maemo.org is broken Sep 28 13:11:30 okay, I don't recall correclty :) Sep 28 13:11:38 how do I disable damn tracker? Sep 28 13:11:45 it kills my rsync process Sep 28 13:11:52 well, not kills, but makes it never eding Sep 28 13:12:23 killall -9 trackerd :D Sep 28 13:12:31 merlin1991: it gets back on Sep 28 13:12:36 thorogh the DSME? Sep 28 13:12:46 .... /etc/inittab? Sep 28 13:13:27 cpt_maemo Sep 28 13:13:32 went away..... 5 4 3 2 1 Sep 28 13:13:43 stop trackerd? Sep 28 13:14:57 ok, gonna be back later today, i have some (non-nokia-tablet-related) stuff to prepare Sep 28 13:20:27 hey guys, what's the name of that app that calculates the worth of some source code again? Sep 28 13:20:36 sloccount Sep 28 13:21:05 thanks Sep 28 13:21:27 I have a dependency for a library I'm packaging that's only in maemo rootfs. It's flagged as 'missing dependency' on the package page. Do I just remove it from the deps list ? Sep 28 13:21:36 i wonder if bme would make it say worthless Sep 28 13:26:04 anyway, gonna be idle for a while, at least until this afternoon (gotta prepare some stuff) Sep 28 13:35:13 If I want to change the vermagic in a module the proper way, how can I make objcopy to insert the section .modinfo, where it was located before? This is my command this far: "objcopy --remove-section=.modinfo --add-section .modinfo=TMP --set-section-flags .modinfo=contents,alloc,load,readonly,data MODULE.ko" But the new .modinfo section is always added to the end. Sep 28 13:36:14 tobis87: … Sep 28 13:36:18 Wondering, what is meant with up to 1GB of application memory? Sep 28 13:36:21 that's self-contradicting Sep 28 13:36:36 yacc: 256 MB RAM plus 768 MB swap Sep 28 13:36:40 1GB address space with 256MB RAM and 768MB that get swapped to flash? Sep 28 13:36:54 yacc: yeah Sep 28 13:36:55 luke-jr__: ? Sep 28 13:37:11 cheapskates ;) Sep 28 13:37:19 tobis87: changing vermagic is inherently *not* proper Sep 28 13:37:31 it's asking for trouble, and basically won't work Sep 28 13:37:33 yacc: advertisement and 512mb DDR blocks in ARM wasn't commonplace back then.. Sep 28 13:37:57 i wish it'd had 1gb of real ram Sep 28 13:38:01 that would have made it a beast Sep 28 13:38:11 Stskeeps: yes it was <.< Sep 28 13:38:13 luke-jr__: Yes, I know... Only way I think of to make the binary injection drivers to load on boot, without force... Sep 28 13:38:18 just not back when Nokia started designing it Sep 28 13:38:41 luke-jr__: i've only seen it on marvell Sep 28 13:38:49 forum.nokia still claims N900 has 768Mbyte NAND Sep 28 13:38:56 Stskeeps: Nexus One, which came out like 3 months later, had a full 1 GB RAM Sep 28 13:39:06 korhojoa, That's interesting, what is it you can't do with your N900 right now that having 1GB of RAM (no swap) would fix? Sep 28 13:39:15 luke-jr__, lies Sep 28 13:39:18 Termana: anything? Sep 28 13:39:29 Termana, well, openoffice would definitely run better Sep 28 13:39:42 luke-jr__, The Nexus One has 512mb of RAM, the Desire has 576mb. Sep 28 13:39:43 also wireshark Sep 28 13:39:49 o Sep 28 13:39:50 Mine runs much better after killing all python-based widgets, and qt. :) Sep 28 13:39:52 wireshark is a pain in the ass to get to run well Sep 28 13:40:06 * luke-jr__ notes Maemo5 requires swap from the start :/ Sep 28 13:40:19 luke-jr__: Do you know how I set where the new .section will get inserted? Sep 28 13:40:34 tobis87: rtfm Sep 28 13:40:37 luke-jr, mine works without Sep 28 13:40:45 ShadowJK: I don't believe you. Sep 28 13:40:58 swapoff -a # and tell me it doesn't crash Sep 28 13:41:07 ShadowJK, are you a crazy mf? Booting Maemo 5 with no swap!? Sep 28 13:41:12 :P Sep 28 13:41:17 it doesn't, I've done it a few times (swapoff) Sep 28 13:41:23 … Sep 28 13:41:24 swapoff is fun Sep 28 13:41:27 until you run out of ram Sep 28 13:41:32 then it's all OH LOL REBOOT Sep 28 13:41:47 after booting with swap enabled, I can even open x-terminal and do cat /proc/swaps and see 0 use :) Sep 28 13:42:05 luke-jr__: it doesn't crash :-P Sep 28 13:42:15 DocScrutinizer51: does for me ☹ Sep 28 13:42:17 it only takes a few minutes though before IO activity starts pushing things to swap Sep 28 13:42:33 and what's REALLY annoying is that swapon my MicroSD also crashes eventually Sep 28 13:42:49 How does it crash? Sep 28 13:42:52 why stick swap on a microsd? Sep 28 13:43:06 korhojoa, to stop wear on the internal emmc Sep 28 13:43:07 It offloads the emmc Sep 28 13:43:17 well. i guess, yeah. Sep 28 13:43:27 ShadowJK: in that case, a kernel panic Sep 28 13:43:32 korhojoa: it's faster Sep 28 13:43:42 ah. okay Sep 28 13:43:48 basically mmc/sd hates multitasking loads, and hates non-sequential access Sep 28 13:44:05 putting swap on microsd makes emmc access patterns slightly less random Sep 28 13:44:07 so what's the difference moving to the microsd? Sep 28 13:44:11 ahh. Sep 28 13:44:23 MicroSD is faster, and can be replaced if wears away Sep 28 13:44:32 a class 8 card should be fast Sep 28 13:44:45 how fast is the controller? Sep 28 13:44:55 i mean, does the performance increase after a class 6 card? Sep 28 13:44:56 well in the case of swap, it's really slow vs slower vs slowest :) Sep 28 13:44:57 luke-jr__: uSD is WHAT? faster?? Sep 28 13:45:06 DocScrutinizer51: according to dd Sep 28 13:45:09 µsd? Sep 28 13:45:14 not uSD Sep 28 13:45:15 :P Sep 28 13:45:58 obviously depends on the microSD card too Sep 28 13:46:18 luke-jr, btw, if the microsd card is internally dual channel or similar, dd can show higher throughput but random access can be twice as slow relative to dd speed compared to a singlechannel device :)) Sep 28 13:47:08 ShadowJK: my kernel is patched to always do swap writes sequentially Sep 28 13:47:50 (no, not really) Sep 28 13:48:25 * SpeedEvil stabs luke-jr with a mashed potato. Sep 28 13:48:32 lol Sep 28 13:48:48 it does that until it runs off the end of the swap device, at which point you have a randomly filled device and it does something like start at largest free chunk and fill it Sep 28 13:49:00 so it gets exponentially slower with time :) Sep 28 13:49:07 ShadowJK: I've wondered about an icky hack. Sep 28 13:49:16 ShadowJK: assuming you keep it full Sep 28 13:49:17 ShadowJK: involving multiple swap devices. Sep 28 13:49:31 ShadowJK: and swapoff when one is full, but fragmented. Sep 28 13:49:32 luke-jr, no I am not assuming that Sep 28 13:49:35 shpaq`: you use Gentoo on N900? :P Sep 28 13:49:43 ShadowJK: Though I'm unsure if you can rate-limit the swapoff Sep 28 13:49:43 SpeedEvil, I do that already Sep 28 13:50:00 yeah it's a bit choppy when swapoff runs Sep 28 13:50:02 you can't rate-limit *any* I/O on Maemo5 Sep 28 13:50:08 SpeedEvil: isn't that 'commonly accepted concept' since months Sep 28 13:50:10 ? Sep 28 13:50:34 dunno. I've been suggesting it for ages. Sep 28 13:50:59 meh Sep 28 13:51:16 screw you all, I'm just going to get one of them RAM chips in a MicroSD form factor Sep 28 13:51:16 "full" being amount of writes in bytes since swapon exceeding swap device size, not when swap used is 768M or whatever Sep 28 13:51:17 <.< Sep 28 13:51:49 ShadowJK: if it isn't full, then all those earlier writes are now empty Sep 28 13:51:53 ShadowJK: is there a ready method to get that writecount? Sep 28 13:51:55 /available Sep 28 13:52:56 luke-jr, no it's pretty random. Only stuff that's been freed will be free, and there will be stuff still in use, in swap, spread all across the swap device Sep 28 13:53:07 DocScrutinizer, I use iostat Sep 28 13:53:10 iostat -m Sep 28 13:53:32 hmmm, anyone using vlc remote? Sep 28 13:53:35 There's a dep for my library that's only in rootfs not in the repos. It's flagged as missing on the package page. Do I just remove it as a dep ? Sep 28 13:53:51 what's the right thing to do ? Sep 28 13:53:53 luke-jr__, Just because someone comes in and is a Gentoo user doesn't mean they are using Gentoo on their N900! :P Sep 28 13:54:05 Termana: why not? ☹ Sep 28 13:54:24 iostat seems no standard pkg Sep 28 13:54:33 vlc remote not working here -.- Sep 28 13:54:36 … Sep 28 13:54:38 luke-jr__, because not everyone has the time to be compiling for an embedded device as well as their desktop Sep 28 13:54:40 it's in sysstat Sep 28 13:54:44 all apps for remote i try dont work Sep 28 13:54:45 * luke-jr__ is tempted to tell DocScrutinizer51 to emerge iostat Sep 28 13:54:47 <.< Sep 28 13:54:49 just parses /proc/diskstat iirc Sep 28 13:55:02 hi Sep 28 13:55:33 I have strange problems with maemo-mapper Sep 28 13:55:51 Looks like it show map with some offset Sep 28 13:56:31 Does anybody have same problems? Sep 28 13:56:57 what overlay driver is needed for smplayer Sep 28 13:57:03 i cant get any picture -.- Sep 28 13:57:10 woah all apps iam testing dont work lol Sep 28 13:57:20 ghostcube: stop it Sep 28 13:57:32 ghostcube: go test some windows apps. Sep 28 13:57:36 :D Sep 28 13:58:10 nice hint but not very helpful Sep 28 13:59:12 luke-jr__: nope, i'm not using n900 Sep 28 13:59:24 vasily_pupkin: where. Sep 28 13:59:28 vasily_pupkin: how much offset Sep 28 13:59:48 i have an old n770 ;) Sep 28 14:00:25 SpeedEvil: n810 2.6.2 version Sep 28 14:01:11 so anyone a tip for smplayer? kmplayer works fine so far Sep 28 14:02:01 is java working on the n900 as of now? Sep 28 14:02:10 i want to play minecraft Sep 28 14:02:54 Depends if you want to run a j2se, j2ee, j2me or java web applet Sep 28 14:03:11 j2se Sep 28 14:03:31 SpeedEvil: http://img580.imageshack.us/img580/3446/gps.png Sep 28 14:03:38 * ShadowJK would doubt applets work with anything Sep 28 14:04:06 SpeedEvil: red - real track, yellow - map. same for all maps providers Sep 28 14:04:33 have you got anywhere that has multiple tracks? Sep 28 14:04:54 http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Accuracy may be relevant Sep 28 14:05:14 In some cases OSM accuracy is poor, and in other places, people have traced from incorrect sources. Sep 28 14:05:25 Can you for example compare with ariel photos Sep 28 14:06:20 SpeedEvil: this is google maps, and on mapper application all ok Sep 28 14:07:15 It looks like it is not a consistent amount off. Sep 28 14:07:19 thats why i thinks the problem is in the maemo-mapper algo of counting x/y/z (?) Sep 28 14:07:24 Doubtful. Sep 28 14:07:47 consistent amount off? Sep 28 14:07:49 mappero (maemo mapper) sources are open Sep 28 14:07:54 so it should be easy to check Sep 28 14:08:11 vasily_pupkin: The error is not constant - the red track does not simply align to any feature Sep 28 14:08:27 yeah, but i am not at homw just now :] Sep 28 14:10:33 are there any mods or alternates to maemo5s hildon desktop which allow some kind of start menu? Sep 28 14:13:46 by the way Sep 28 14:14:10 is there any mappero ports to n810/diablo? Sep 28 14:17:14 has anyone noticed MyContacts & the associated home screen applet exiting spuriously? Sep 28 14:18:35 heya wazd Sep 28 14:19:47 RST38h: hey :) Sorry, I have to run now, but I'll be back in a couple hours Sep 28 14:21:30 yeah got vlc remote to work -.- Sep 28 14:21:33 hrhr Sep 28 14:26:54 is it already known that http://repository.maemo.org/extras/dists/fremantle-1.2/free/binary-armel/Packages is broken? Sep 28 14:27:27 moo Sep 28 14:28:17 Jasonb10, look in the Diablo patchset, it incorporated a startmenuish menu for app launching :) Sep 28 14:28:49 hey javispedro , lcuk , MohammadAG51 Sep 28 14:29:03 hello sivang Sep 28 14:29:10 lcuk it looks great but im not sure how i would start trying to get it working in maemo5 Sep 28 14:30:03 technically you could try building the diablo hildon components and installing/replacing the ones on your development device Sep 28 14:30:13 uh huh... Sep 28 14:30:30 good idea.. Sep 28 14:30:50 lots of people liked the diablo desktop :) and with telescope, it actually offers quite a nice experience without the powervr being involved Sep 28 14:32:36 i never had diablo but it looks cool Sep 28 14:32:41 I have read the manpage over and over again. I have no idea how I could make objcopy to rearange sections, but it shouldn't really matter, or does it? Sep 28 14:33:39 am I not allowed to remove a package I uploaded to extras-devel ? Sep 28 14:34:15 nope afaik Sep 28 14:34:25 X-Fade: there? Sep 28 14:34:48 okey, who broke http://repository.maemo.org/extras/dists/fremantle-1.2/free/binary-armel/Packages.gz ? Sep 28 14:37:49 DocScrutinizer51, but what if I uploaded a broken package that can't be fixed ? does it just remain there ? Sep 28 14:38:42 Did angry birds release on the N900 or iOS first? I tought it was N900 but wikipedia says differently Sep 28 14:38:56 iphone Sep 28 14:39:56 jacktheripper: what did you do? can't you just bump version #? Sep 28 14:40:48 javispedro: it's libwnck, and it depends on libxres1 which has been removed in PR1.2 and moved to the tools repo. It's flagged as a missing dependency. Is there a better thing to do ? Sep 28 14:42:16 I have not tried this with a n900 module, but this should work as well. http://pastebin.com/td0QaNje Sep 28 14:43:12 hey sivang Sep 28 14:43:20 jacktheripper: nothing awful will happen by leaving it there =) Sep 28 14:43:42 tobis87: aw, looks like you're trying to make your kernel suicide Sep 28 14:44:01 cat /dev/kmem ftw Sep 28 14:44:06 * MohammadAG51 thanks DocScrutinizer Sep 28 14:45:30 javispedro: This was only a test on my pc, I wanted to find out how to change the .modinfo section, so it is possible to use the injection driver with the normal kernel, without having to use force. Sep 28 14:46:34 hey Sep 28 14:46:43 i found shit in maemo-mapper Sep 28 14:47:25 kernel panic Sep 28 14:47:27 javispedro, but it'd cause some confusion I think. Sep 28 14:47:40 can anybody give me proper /maps/maemo/maemo-mapper/map_correction_unitx? Sep 28 14:47:54 SpeedEvil: ? Sep 28 14:49:36 lcuk: eh? thanks for what? mentioning a way to cause kernel panic? Sep 28 14:53:15 ZogGGG Sep 28 14:57:50 hi RST38h Sep 28 15:05:48 hmm, can anyone give me ip for a515.g.akamai.net ? Sep 28 15:05:57 i have some weird issues here, again :) Sep 28 15:06:29 a515.g.akamai.net has address 195.215.37.65 Sep 28 15:06:29 a515.g.akamai.net has address 195.215.37.63 Sep 28 15:07:15 that's interesting, three different sources three diferent ip sets Sep 28 15:07:54 n900-dk: and http://repository.maemo.org/extras/dists/fremantle-1.2/free/binary-armel/Packages.gz is a proper gzip file for you i assume? Sep 28 15:08:13 i get here some wierd text output looking like a part of a config file Sep 28 15:08:35 dRbiG: Yes it is Sep 28 15:09:05 dRbiG: "three different sources three diferent ip sets" < thats basically the whole point of akamai Sep 28 15:09:35 nidO: some kind of load-balancing/clustering stuff? Sep 28 15:10:16 dRbiG: Yes, guess they have localized servers more places in the world Sep 28 15:10:26 yes, its a worldwide network of load-balanced systems, that will always (usually) direct visitors to hosting nodes physically closest to themselves Sep 28 15:11:02 okey, but why do i get this http://paste.org/pastebin/view/22936 instead of the gziped package list? Sep 28 15:11:05 huh Sep 28 15:14:04 That's a good question :) Sep 28 15:14:49 hmm, so rsync -aHx /home to mSD took ages, I accidently disconnected from the USB cable, now ls on the mSD ext3 filesystem takes ages as well Sep 28 15:15:10 dRbiG: there's been other reports today bout repos gzip broken. For IP: akamai does load balancing Sep 28 15:15:25 and it doesn't seem it is eating too much memory Sep 28 15:15:34 is there a way to disable trackerd for a specific operation? Sep 28 15:16:23 hm, just read blogpost about nokia of former leader of the biggest mobile sellers in russia Sep 28 15:16:44 seems like nokia fucked up the market Sep 28 15:17:26 what do you mean "f**cked" ? Sep 28 15:18:03 I just took iPhone4 to my hands, it looks the same like the previous one, and no real multitasking yet. Sep 28 15:18:04 the ruined relations with dealers Sep 28 15:18:11 *they Sep 28 15:18:37 not to mention not being able to use flash and transmit streamed stuff frmo 3G over FM radio :) Sep 28 15:18:53 * sivang pets his N900 Sep 28 15:19:01 DocScrutinizer51: seems that some of these load-balancing backend servers have some problems, halting in the middle of a script or sth. on another box one time i get the proper .gz file other time i get this broken stuff Sep 28 15:19:05 annoying Sep 28 15:19:14 either work everytime or be broken everytime Sep 28 15:20:11 dRbiG: I can easily suggest a 'fix' to you so it fails forver :-P Sep 28 15:20:41 interested? Sep 28 15:20:56 DocScrutinizer51: i assume it all to be broken ;p Sep 28 15:21:04 no fuzzy logic approach here Sep 28 15:24:06 i wonder if this issue applies to other files not just package list Sep 28 15:25:23 anyway, i can bet this whole stuff was written in php ;) Sep 28 15:25:33 it feels so bamboo raft Sep 28 15:30:04 Just out of curiosity, is there such a thing like a VNC server for the N900? Sep 28 15:30:20 So that I can use the big screen and keyboard to use it while at home? Sep 28 15:31:54 yacc, sure there is - and you can also just plug into the video out ;) Sep 28 15:33:11 lcuk, well, video out means no keyboard. Sep 28 15:33:24 lcuk, but a VNC server means that I can just "remote" control the phone. Sep 28 15:33:41 One of the things that I most missed on my G1. Sep 28 15:36:01 yacc just type "vnc" into the search box here http://maemo.org/packages/ Sep 28 15:36:14 or into search box on HAM :) Sep 28 15:37:39 Wondering, Maemo does run X11 or does it have it's own "display system" directly wired with Qt? Sep 28 15:38:03 x11 Sep 28 15:38:23 cool, so x11vnc is enough to remote control the UI :) Sep 28 15:38:53 That's why I've been wanting to have a N900 for some time, ... Sep 28 15:39:12 And if I believe a former friend, it's nearly unbrickable too :) Sep 28 15:41:12 yacc: here comes the surprising part: the core Maemo doesn't use Qt all, but Gtk+. Sep 28 15:41:19 *at all. Sep 28 15:44:48 lol Sep 28 15:45:06 yacc: maemo is actually of strong GTK+ legacy Sep 28 15:45:26 But Qt is the new thing, right? Sep 28 15:46:28 Depends on how you define new I guess Sep 28 15:46:37 Both Qt and Gtk+ have been around quite a while Sep 28 15:47:22 yacc: mobile app development offering from Nokia now leans to Qt mostly. Sep 28 15:47:45 yacc: and is the thick of the MeeGo SDK for example Sep 28 15:48:31 MohammadAG: Can I stop trackerd? Also, I rsync'd some stuff to the mSD and the process broke in the middle, now the fs seems inaccessbiel as when ls'ing it it hangs for inordinate amount of time. Sep 28 15:49:27 tracker-processes -t Sep 28 15:49:44 thanks javispedro Sep 28 15:49:49 starting media player will spawn it again Sep 28 15:50:19 javispedro: I haven't , then again, there is a good chance my fs busy problem is not related to tracker Sep 28 15:50:45 there's a good chance it's just that io is slow :P Sep 28 15:51:29 javispedro: right, and I forgot to disable the journal before the copy process ;/ Sep 28 15:51:43 javispedro: tracker is defucnt, how can I have it cleaned? Sep 28 15:51:52 Blow away the DB. Sep 28 15:52:12 sivang: doesn't matter Sep 28 15:52:14 tracker SUCKS. There is no real way to fix "it" Sep 28 15:52:16 defunct = No resources Sep 28 15:52:44 h4waii: just stop it :) Sep 28 15:53:04 and not have my media indexed? Sep 28 15:53:33 well, you can still use file manager to navigate Sep 28 15:53:40 javispedro: right, it just hurt my eye to see it there still and starting the media player did not start it causing media player to report "no videos/songs" :) Sep 28 15:53:45 Pretty lame option, IMHO. Sep 28 15:53:47 hehey here where you are folks! Sep 28 15:54:04 juk: ? Sep 28 15:54:07 everyone voted already? Sep 28 15:54:28 h4waii: another option is to fix tracker :) Sep 28 15:54:31 hi sivang Sep 28 15:54:51 The best option is to replace tracker. Sep 28 15:55:00 did everyone voted here for n900? Sep 28 15:55:09 hmm Sep 28 15:55:26 hey juk :) I will be soon requiring voting myself , I plan to upload some apps soon Sep 28 15:55:44 sivang: time to reboot =) Sep 28 15:55:48 sivang: great! Sep 28 15:56:06 no, most don't care what wins in some online competition Sep 28 15:56:10 javispedro: yeah, as I see now, quite astonishingly that 3(!!) rsync processes are running toward the same target. Sep 28 15:56:16 the poll is really pointless Sep 28 15:56:16 javispedro: I know your nick :) and MohammadAG Sep 28 15:56:31 Can someone here please open ovi maps (i know) and try searching for: killarney, ireland Sep 28 15:56:35 juk: none of them really stoped when I ctrl-c'd Sep 28 15:56:51 timeless_pidgin: can it be done on the web instead of the device? Sep 28 15:56:52 ... Once it finds that, try a new search for: bus terminal, killarney Sep 28 15:57:00 Sivang : dunno Sep 28 15:57:09 timeless_pidgin: okay, I'm doing it on the device Sep 28 15:57:11 just a sec Sep 28 15:57:18 bah Sep 28 15:57:22 I'd rather n900 since i want fidelity to version 1 stupidity Sep 28 15:57:23 I have to reboot first, Sep 28 15:57:42 straying rsync processes... Sep 28 15:57:54 hmm Sep 28 15:57:58 reboot is not responding Sep 28 15:57:59 odd Sep 28 15:58:14 :) Sep 28 15:58:21 sudo gainroot; reboot Sep 28 15:58:22 hdd failure? Sep 28 15:58:42 timeless_pidgin: yes, that's what I did, through root though Sep 28 15:58:53 timeless_pidgin: anyway, I switched on and off form the button menu Sep 28 15:59:17 ooohh I think I made it angry Sep 28 15:59:31 it has done the boot vibrate for like 3 times ina row now Sep 28 15:59:36 * sivang hopes thigns are right inside there Sep 28 15:59:55 timeless_pidgin: booting, just a sec Sep 28 16:00:10 sivang: what app are you developing? Sep 28 16:00:54 juk: something to get events from rsyslog enabled servers into the device with alerts and stuff, mostly as an excersize Sep 28 16:00:58 juk: for admins Sep 28 16:01:24 timeless_pidgin: okay, it runs. killarney , ireland it is Sep 28 16:02:09 *exercise Sep 28 16:02:38 juk: I want to create a suite of apps "for making administrators life good" as Borat would have said. Sep 28 16:02:56 timeless_pidgin: ovi boots Sep 28 16:02:58 sivang: that's cool Sep 28 16:03:45 timeless_pidgin1: how do I search it.. Sep 28 16:04:06 At the bottom right there's an un fullscreen Sep 28 16:04:25 timeless_pidgin: k, clicked it Sep 28 16:04:29 Tap. Then there's a search "button" in the "bar" Sep 28 16:04:38 you mean places? Sep 28 16:04:51 Hrm, no? Sep 28 16:05:03 Which maemo software do you have? Sep 28 16:05:22 (which do i have? :( ...) Sep 28 16:05:30 timeless_pidgin: that's okay, I'm managing Sep 28 16:05:41 timeless_pidgin: alreay got offered the airport through auto completiong, just a sec Sep 28 16:05:53 timeless_pidgin: seems like the latest OVI maps but the device is at 1.1.1 orsomething Sep 28 16:05:56 surely not 1.2 Sep 28 16:06:01 Take pictures as you go (ctrl-shift-p) ;) Sep 28 16:06:23 Iirc maps got a facelift for 1.2 Sep 28 16:06:34 timeless_pidgin: I think it seems like in 1.2 Sep 28 16:06:41 timeless_pidgin: but I know for sure I am not using 1.2. Sep 28 16:06:44 s/.// Sep 28 16:06:45 sivang meant: timeless_pidgin: but I know for sure I am not using 12. Sep 28 16:07:13 s/2./2/ Sep 28 16:07:28 timeless_pidgin: and what's next? the train station? Sep 28 16:07:38 "Killerny train station"? Sep 28 16:07:40 Anyway, what does it give as results? Sep 28 16:08:01 county, county roscommon Sep 28 16:08:06 For me it showed killarney and bus terminal as distinct map points. Sep 28 16:08:09 county kerry Sep 28 16:08:21 Killarney Bus Station? Sep 28 16:08:27 sivang: I want to port busybox, original one, default in maemo is modified Sep 28 16:08:37 oh dear...it set on US. Sep 28 16:08:39 * sivang changes Sep 28 16:08:46 I wish rtcomm could actually manage to maintain connections for more then a day at a stretch. Sep 28 16:09:02 Which was "helpful", since the fact that i'm *in* killarney and am looking for a bus terminal means that i really want to know where killarney (map center) is! Sep 28 16:09:03 GAN900: it's all gone downhill since recently, I don't know what's going on Sep 28 16:09:05 tht's bettter Sep 28 16:09:17 timeless_pidgin: error on searc, retrying Sep 28 16:09:21 That's why i searched for killarney alone, oh wait, i didn't... Sep 28 16:09:38 timeless_pidgin: okay, don't despair I'm massaging it Sep 28 16:09:40 it used to be able to keep gtalk/jabber open for more than a day, now I hear the usualy login/logout sounds every two or three hours :( Sep 28 16:10:24 juk: nice, will be right back with you after I finish helping timeless_pidgin Sep 28 16:10:29 Have you asked the telepathy people about logging? Sep 28 16:10:50 Surely they'd want to investigate/improve... Sep 28 16:11:00 * timeless_pidgin is on a bus to Cork Sep 28 16:11:11 timeless_pidgin: okay, I found a Killarney bus station Sep 28 16:11:17 timeless_pidgin: and centered upon it Sep 28 16:11:33 Sivang : the question isn't really can you find it Sep 28 16:11:42 timeless_pidgin: what do you need from it? Sep 28 16:11:45 It's whether when you search for: bus terminal, killarney Sep 28 16:12:03 Does it show two results (bus terminal), (killarney) Sep 28 16:12:10 timeless_pidgin: I searched for "Killarney Bus Station" Sep 28 16:12:29 timeless_pidgin: (1) Sep 28 16:12:29 Nah, "bus terminal, killarney" w/o quotes Sep 28 16:13:16 timeless_pidgin: -> one hit Sep 28 16:13:20 timeless_pidgin: same as before Sep 28 16:13:27 "Killarney Bus Station" Sep 28 16:14:11 timeless_pidgin: that's all what you need? no info from it? can I offer you some lonelyplanet recommendations? :-P Sep 28 16:14:46 who is Arney, btw? Sep 28 16:15:24 timeless_pidgin: there's a phone number as well. Sep 28 16:15:34 juk: what's missing from Maemo's busybox? Sep 28 16:15:49 He's the guy who owns all of Ireland - slonopotamus Sep 28 16:15:57 Sort of the Illuminati Sep 28 16:17:16 sivang: some flags, like find's -exec Sep 28 16:17:32 juk: ah, and it was disabled for security or leaness ? Sep 28 16:17:59 sivang: because nokia didn't need them :) Sep 28 16:18:21 (oh, and don't ask how old is maemo busybox) Sep 28 16:18:32 sivang: i dont know, also ifconfig and ping are need to be run as sudo, weird Sep 28 16:18:44 isn't that normal? Sep 28 16:18:48 Stskeeps: where I can follow meego to N900 -development the best? Sep 28 16:19:02 javispedro: no Sep 28 16:19:06 Scelt: meego-arm Sep 28 16:19:20 slonopotamus: you'd need a separate suid "Ping" binary Sep 28 16:19:26 sivang: :? Sep 28 16:19:47 or give suid (or ping caps) to the entiry busybox bnary Sep 28 16:19:56 javispedro: Im not unix expert, just saying out my some experience Sep 28 16:20:04 "Bus Station, Killflanders" Sep 28 16:20:17 Scelt: http://lists.meego.com/listinfo/meego-dev Sep 28 16:20:26 sivang: thx Sep 28 16:20:32 Scelt: or join #meego-arm Sep 28 16:21:31 javispedro: and _normally_ ping is a separate binary Sep 28 16:21:47 sivang: I did Sep 28 16:22:00 Scelt: subscribed? Sep 28 16:22:10 slonopotamus: on busybox? Sep 28 16:22:15 sivang: nah, just joined the channel Sep 28 16:23:02 javispedro: nope. but normally you don't use busybox Sep 28 16:23:52 is there a simple example for a maemo app that uses gconf? (/me checks modest) Sep 28 16:24:08 slonopotamus: that's another point (a good one though =) ). Sep 28 16:24:27 sivang: any gnome app Sep 28 16:24:31 modest uses ~/.modest Sep 28 16:24:48 fMMS (python) uses gconf Sep 28 16:26:06 MohammadAG: thanks, what about hildon? I'm specifically after the usage pattern of GSettings Sep 28 16:27:25 * sivang arghs at the -pae kernel that keeps hanging Sep 28 16:27:38 sivang: GSettings is too new for Maemo, afaik you won't be able to use it at all Sep 28 16:31:48 javispedro: I thought of first doing some review, to see how many and which applications we need to change as per - http://permalink.gmane.org/gmane.comp.handhelds.meego.devel/5854 Sep 28 16:32:19 I've not followed that Sep 28 16:33:02 nuke messybox Sep 28 16:33:05 javispedro: so basically, Arjan said he would be happy to move to dconf, but first there need to be a coherent settings API that apps will use, where switching the backend won't change anything for them. Sep 28 16:33:26 javispedro: arr, Marius, not Arjan Sep 28 16:34:10 javispedro: Arjan just said we need a plan, http://permalink.gmane.org/gmane.comp.handhelds.meego.devel/5828 Sep 28 16:34:29 javispedro: so I want to start preparing this plan. first step to research how many and which apps do use gconf, and it what way. Sep 28 16:34:32 (IMHO) Sep 28 16:34:55 frals: where's new fmms? mms sending is still slow ;( Sep 28 16:35:09 sivang: ah well, I would be surprised if the figure wasn't anywhere near 100% of the applications Sep 28 16:35:21 and all of them using GConfClient. Sep 28 16:35:40 on Meego maybe some of them used the libmeego gconf client Sep 28 16:35:45 *libmeegotouch Sep 28 16:35:59 javispedro: yes, inside meegotouch this is the same "abstraction" Sep 28 16:36:06 javispedro: e.g. follwoing exactly same API Sep 28 16:36:25 javispedro: that's Marius's lib , reintroduced there. Sep 28 16:37:13 javispedro: it seems the missing bit is to enable the qt wrappers to listen to changes AFAI understand it, but I may be terribly wrong. Sep 28 16:37:39 iirc the one missing notifications is qsettings (the multiplatform qt one) Sep 28 16:37:47 (for obvious reasons... ) Sep 28 16:37:51 javispedro: exactly Sep 28 16:38:04 javispedro: what are the obvious reasons for lack of signaling? Sep 28 16:38:07 err, notifications. Sep 28 16:38:13 sivang: that some platforms do not implement it. Sep 28 16:39:00 javispedro: well, okay. It should just be defunct for platforms that do no implement it, it is also not the platform itself but the settings storage software installed there, so it is the "middleware" level Sep 28 16:39:19 I should probably take this to qt-devel Sep 28 16:39:23 * sivang contemplates Sep 28 16:44:15 honestly I don't see the rationale behind ANY windows registry mimicking configuration system, no amtter if you cal it gconf, *conf or foobar - it just gives me goosepimples Sep 28 16:45:35 what the hell is wrong with good old unix defacto standard plain text config files? Sep 28 16:45:52 DocScrutinizer51: notifications =) Sep 28 16:46:06 eh? Sep 28 16:46:26 envision a hundred of apps getting notified by inotify when a .ini file changes, then all of them reparsing the entire .ini file and updating Sep 28 16:46:47 now envision a daemon telling each specific app listening for a specific setting sending a dbus message Sep 28 16:46:55 that setting X changed and its new value is Y Sep 28 16:48:04 javispedro: umm, so what? Sep 28 16:48:08 that was what sold me on gconf Sep 28 16:48:21 instant settings update in all running apps Sep 28 16:48:47 don't buy that Sep 28 16:50:12 sane system of system-wide/user prefs, with optional blocking user changes? Sep 28 16:50:48 where's the overhead of 100 fopen();read() compared to 100 dbus-notify? esp if those 100 read() are to the same buffered file? Sep 28 16:51:59 nonsense, systemwide killing off apps/processes when one central cruft system (gconfd) fails Sep 28 16:52:06 DocScrutinizer51: XML parsing is only done once Sep 28 16:52:25 pfft Sep 28 16:52:42 MohammadAG, hey, I remember you told me yesterday that I should keep my -dev package in extras-devel. There's nothing wrong with having most of the dependencies flagged as 'missing' on the page, right ? Sep 28 16:53:18 lindi-: no reason to keep configs in xml Sep 28 16:53:52 having been lurking here for some time, I saw you bashing nokia so many times; please reassure me: n900 isn't that bad as you say so? :-) Sep 28 16:54:09 mgedmin: how is gconf overcoming the performance problem with inotify and ini files ? Sep 28 16:54:12 what difference armeb and arm and armel ??? Sep 28 16:54:32 confusing stuff Sep 28 16:54:42 big endian, little endian Sep 28 16:54:45 really a great achievement for those myriads of 2 system wide config changes per day, to set up some overcomplicated slow unmanageable system like gconfd Sep 28 16:55:07 sivang, instead of 5 apps having to read, parse, and diff internally with old settings, there's a single notification from the app changing the setting to gconfd which redistributes the notification to those 4 of the 5 apps that expressed an interest in that particular setting Sep 28 16:55:17 but I wasn't saying it was overcoming a performance problem, specifically Sep 28 16:55:19 satmd: so which one is n900 running Sep 28 16:55:22 DocScrutinizer51 has lots in what his saying. The amount of constant configuration is small on such a platform and happens mostly when user starts using the system for the first itme. Sep 28 16:55:30 uname -a should tell you Sep 28 16:55:49 mgedmin: but they still have to re-read the config no? Sep 28 16:55:54 mh, doesnt Sep 28 16:55:56 mgedmin: or do dbus sends them the changed valu? Sep 28 16:56:01 sivang, no, gconf sends them the changed value Sep 28 16:56:06 mgedmin: ah great. Sep 28 16:56:11 gconf doesn't use dbus, I think Sep 28 16:56:21 that's what the upcoming gconf replacement dconf is all about Sep 28 16:56:38 satmd: it's better, armv71 unkown, which one is that one now? Sep 28 16:56:46 mgedmin: about sending the changed values? you said said gconf does this as well :) Sep 28 16:56:52 gconf is a nice framework with some serious implementation issues -- all those little .xml files scattered on disk are not good for performance Sep 28 16:56:59 great, even more overhead Sep 28 16:57:10 sivang, yes, I just meant that currently gconf uses some kind of IPC that's not based on top of dbus Sep 28 16:57:15 for those notifications Sep 28 16:57:16 jacktheripper, nope, some of the ones in the rootfs of Maemo 5 aren't detected by the packages page I think Sep 28 16:57:24 juk: just trying to find out, I have one :p Sep 28 16:57:33 liori: N900 is the best thing since sliced bread, and a good replacement for a girl friend Sep 28 16:57:41 satmd: you have what? Sep 28 16:58:11 ahah! optimezed to a point where performance sucks - wait, why did we change to gconf? Sep 28 16:58:15 sivang - Must have been a lousy relationship Sep 28 16:58:24 sivang: ok, thanks, that's what I wanted to hear Sep 28 16:58:26 RevdKathy: yes, long sotry :) Sep 28 16:58:34 still, N900 keeps me company Sep 28 16:58:44 * RevdKathy thinks of ways she could outclass an n900 Sep 28 16:58:45 the more I get from it, the more I want Sep 28 16:58:45 mgedmin: oh, it does use gconf, at least recent versions of it Sep 28 16:58:58 javispedro, did you mean dconf? Sep 28 16:58:58 satmd: I donwloaded arm toolchain and shell says not found while executing Sep 28 16:59:10 mgedmin: err. I mean... gconf does use dbus. Sep 28 16:59:10 mgedmin: gconf uses CORBA currently afaik Sep 28 16:59:21 let's face it, gconf idea is an evil infection of mind you get by touching redmond crap Sep 28 16:59:23 lindi-: ooo right Sep 28 16:59:23 i even have proof =) Sep 28 16:59:40 the tetris app on diablo and fremantle use dbus to talk with gconfd Sep 28 16:59:41 satmd: shall i get armv7 ? Sep 28 16:59:42 I believe you Sep 28 16:59:52 directly, no client library in between Sep 28 17:00:00 RevdKathy: sky are also ISPing ? :) Sep 28 17:00:03 * mgedmin updates his internal knowledge base and hopes he won't forget Sep 28 17:00:12 Hi Sep 28 17:00:16 johnsq: but does it use CORBA over dbus there? Sep 28 17:00:18 what's the point of dconf then? Sep 28 17:00:23 yes - have been for years Sep 28 17:00:27 javispedro: but does it use CORBA over dbus there? Sep 28 17:00:36 why it would do that?? Sep 28 17:00:42 DocScrutinizer51: do you have any alternatives which will have the same features as gconf? Sep 28 17:00:44 corba is a giant mess Sep 28 17:00:48 ldd /usr/lib/.../gconfd-2 does link to both libORBit and to libdbus Sep 28 17:00:58 javispedro: because afaik dbus support was not there yet Sep 28 17:01:10 what Fing *features* ??? Sep 28 17:01:19 javispedro: can you post output of dbus-monitor? Sep 28 17:01:22 lindi-: sigh. method call sender=:1.200 -> dest=org.gnome.GConf serial=2 path=/org/gnome/GConf; interface=org.gnome.GConf; member=GetIOR Sep 28 17:01:29 etc, etc, etc. Sep 28 17:01:44 and this is on a 2-3 year old gnome version.. Sep 28 17:01:54 DocScrutinizer51: not having to code file management, notification changes, and system-wide/user prefs Sep 28 17:02:10 javispedro: and then it transmits things like "IOR:010000001600000049444c3a436f6e666967536572766572323a312e30000000030000000054424f540000000101020005000000554e4958000000000a0000006c6f63616c686f73740000002a000000 Sep 28 17:02:15 javispedro: there? afaik that's orbit over dbus Sep 28 17:02:22 javispedro: there? afaik that's corba over dbus :) Sep 28 17:02:26 dunn Sep 28 17:02:27 +o Sep 28 17:02:29 lindi-: touché Sep 28 17:02:40 liori: sorry, not my problem if you don't like coding and dun't know how to use libs Sep 28 17:02:52 and your tetris app deals with that? Sep 28 17:02:52 wow Sep 28 17:03:05 no, letme look it up Sep 28 17:03:26 javispedro: would be interesting if it did anything more complex with dbus Sep 28 17:03:54 juk: wikipedia says... both ... but I dunno how thats implemented, if one can chose it per kernel or per application Sep 28 17:04:01 lindi-: I see that there's a proper Dbus API Sep 28 17:04:12 lindi-: see interface org.gnome.GConf.Database Sep 28 17:04:14 DocScrutinizer51: i just don't want to spend time on details which should be solved by environment Sep 28 17:04:21 iirc little endian Sep 28 17:04:26 lindi-: http://mxr.maemo.org/diablo/source/hildon-games-wrapper-1.9.4/libhgw/hgw_conf.c#121 Sep 28 17:04:31 lol Sep 28 17:05:05 satmd: thanks for researching! Sep 28 17:05:10 DocScrutinizer51: and gconf has an additional feature that it abstracts how the settings are actually stored, so i don't care if it is XML or INI files... gconf can change that later Sep 28 17:05:28 Khertan, re Sep 28 17:05:32 satmd: im doing just verbosly :D Sep 28 17:05:39 MohammadAG, ping Sep 28 17:05:42 app config is "environment"?? and you honestly suggest using gconf and dbus is much simpler than using any of the multiple config file parsing libs available? Sep 28 17:06:08 DocScrutinizer51: definitely! because there's A LOT of them, and all of them implement their own syntax, their own quirks, etc. Sep 28 17:06:11 depends if you want insta-apply or not Sep 28 17:06:14 I suppose Sep 28 17:06:35 liori: so maybe it also learns to smell like lemon. Would that also count as feature? Sep 28 17:06:52 DocScrutinizer51: if user wants his configuration to smell, why not? Sep 28 17:07:34 javispedro: so what? you are not suggested to use all of them concurrently Sep 28 17:08:31 hi guys Sep 28 17:08:38 ZogG, pong Sep 28 17:08:39 SpeedEvil: thanks for your help yesterday Sep 28 17:08:52 DocScrutinizer51: but apps will, and you'll have to learn them. Sep 28 17:09:12 user wants to not see "gconfd 20% cpu" - everything else is irrelevant. Nah wait, what's the analog to less .xchat2/xchat.conf? for gconf? Sep 28 17:09:25 SpeedEvil: I took my N900 to a Nokia service. The guy measured the battery voltage, it was 2.4 V... so he gave it a manual charge, and now my N900 can charge it, too Sep 28 17:09:26 ZogG, ? Sep 28 17:09:29 re Sep 28 17:09:29 :) Sep 28 17:09:32 DocScrutinizer51: gconftool -R /apps/gconf Sep 28 17:09:50 er.. Sep 28 17:09:51 javispedro: interesting Sep 28 17:09:57 /apps/xchat Sep 28 17:10:26 MohammadAG: thanks to you too Sep 28 17:10:26 javispedro: uhuh, so you want to play benevolent dictator now? by pressing devels into just one quirky interface, instead of configs of their choice? Sep 28 17:10:29 javispedro: any idea where I can find the source of this "LookupExtended"? grep does not find it from the source of gconf 2.31.5 Sep 28 17:11:06 Scelt: initial testing is showing imagemagick to be hell of a lot slower, but ive not checked all options yet :P Sep 28 17:11:29 javispedro: I'm really eager to copy my xchat config from N810 to N900 this way Sep 28 17:11:34 Venemo, stopping bme shouldn't kill a battery, anyways, good to see it was resolved :) Sep 28 17:11:42 frals: I gave you the best quality option so not surprised :) try -scale Sep 28 17:11:54 DocScrutinizer51: if you want to code your own configuration code, do so; gconf is for those who only needs standard features... which will fit 95% of apps Sep 28 17:11:57 MohammadAG, now I see that bme is there for a reason :) Sep 28 17:12:20 DocScrutinizer51: ah, we've reached that point of the discussion again. Nobody is forcing anybody to use GConf (well, save gnome foundation for gnome core apps). The fact that I think it's a nice approach doesn't force anyone to use it. Sep 28 17:12:51 it's a system architecture paradoxon (ouff maged to use any 4letter word) Sep 28 17:13:30 is something wrong with the maemo.org repositories or am I using wrong url's? http://repository.maemo.org/extras/dists/fremantle-1.2/free/binary-armel/Packages.gz doesn't seem valid to me. Sep 28 17:13:41 Hi Sep 28 17:13:48 anyone tried booting MeeGo on their N900 Sep 28 17:13:51 frals: for an example: resample took 0m2.778s, sample 0m0.090s and scale 0m0.113s Sep 28 17:13:59 I tried just now. The process is easy Sep 28 17:14:21 but the screen is mostly blank. Is this expected behaviour or did I do something wrong? Sep 28 17:14:24 frals: I think using resample was a bad idea. I forgot to do that test :( Sep 28 17:15:21 Scelt: im reading up on the different filters to see which produces acceptable images... it was this part i was hoping to not have to do ;D Sep 28 17:15:46 vkvraju_: can MeeGo make phone calls yet? Sep 28 17:16:00 thats what I read and so tried booting today Sep 28 17:16:08 people wre able to make and receive phone calls Sep 28 17:16:13 and also receiev SMS too Sep 28 17:16:18 read it in meego forums today Sep 28 17:16:31 sounds good! :) Sep 28 17:16:34 This was with the image that includes Nokia's closed components and stuff Sep 28 17:16:47 yeah Sep 28 17:16:49 yeah, I thought so, but I don't have problems with that Sep 28 17:16:58 frals: yeah. I know I should have tested it better, sorry. but I'm pretty sure that one of those wrapper filters are fine. was it very slow with scale or sample too? or only with that resample? Sep 28 17:17:03 at least it's MeeGo on the N900!!! :) Sep 28 17:17:07 I tried booting into it. The process was simple enough. But things are not clean after booting in. Sep 28 17:17:39 MohammadAG wanna make me russian localization for psfreedom and btw what about the version when you don't need disc inside? Sep 28 17:17:40 Scelt: im testing with resize to see what it does currently, so far everything has been slow ;D Sep 28 17:17:48 Khertan, bonjour Sep 28 17:17:56 my screen is sitting blank now. If anyone has a way to get me to the meego menu, it would be great Sep 28 17:18:10 frals: have you tested -scale? Sep 28 17:18:16 not yet Sep 28 17:18:17 vkvraju_: perhaps the guys in #meego would be of more help to you Sep 28 17:18:26 ZogG, well, I need to look at how to translate Qt apps first, as for the version, ask in #psfreedom, I only made the UI, not the kernel modules Sep 28 17:18:29 Khertan, wanted to make russian localization for khweeteur as well, or other your programs if you want, do you have .po files ? Sep 28 17:18:36 you started with the claim of gconf optimizing system performance, meanwhile we got the factoid it actually ntroduces performance *problems* and we never had any optimizing need in first instance. Then you claim gconf is easier to use, while there's quite obviously no difference to using any other arbitrary lib. Now you talk about abstraction of backend, so user has not to care about the file format. Great, I *love* to have a plain text Sep 28 17:18:37 file format of config files though, maybe even with comments. So what's next ? Sep 28 17:18:38 I am currently at meego-arm too. No one seems to be interested to help there Sep 28 17:19:02 !google qt gui po translation Sep 28 17:19:02 Results for qt gui po translation on Google: Sep 28 17:19:03 -- Sep 28 17:19:07 hmm Sep 28 17:19:13 vkvraju_: I think Stskeeps could help you Sep 28 17:19:17 ~seen Stskeeps Sep 28 17:19:28 stskeeps is currently on #maemo (2d 10h 58m 54s) #meego (2d 10h 58m 54s). Has said a total of 95 messages. Is idling for 3h 16m 48s, last said: 'die'. Sep 28 17:19:29 yeah, he had helped before too. But looks like, he might be busy now Sep 28 17:19:30 !who zgoldberg Sep 28 17:19:50 ZogG: it is /whois Sep 28 17:19:52 lindi-: http://mxr.maemo.org/fremantle/source/gconf2/gconf/gconf-dbus-utils.h Sep 28 17:20:11 my answer: kill -9 gconfd, and see what this architecture got you Sep 28 17:20:31 Venemo no there was bot command Sep 28 17:20:57 ZogG: those usually begin with ~ Sep 28 17:21:03 ~nuke ZogG Sep 28 17:21:03 * infobot prepares 100 missle silos, and targets them at ZogG ... B☢☢M! Sep 28 17:21:05 oh right Sep 28 17:21:07 ...while I scp my xchat.conf file to a new machine, with evil grin Sep 28 17:21:08 frals: -sample seems to be crappy, -scale is better Sep 28 17:21:10 ~ZogG Sep 28 17:21:11 you are, like, a awesome guy Sep 28 17:21:19 i am Sep 28 17:21:23 lol Sep 28 17:21:24 DocScrutinizer: you will lose notifications but the daemon will selfrespawn as soon as the next application calls it Sep 28 17:21:30 this bot is AI, isn't it? Sep 28 17:21:39 ZogG: I don't think so Sep 28 17:21:43 ~MohammadAG Sep 28 17:21:43 well, mohammadag is a package maintainer that would jump off a cliff if crashanddie asked him to Sep 28 17:21:57 ZogG: it just responds with a set of predefined answers Sep 28 17:21:59 pfff, so lemme suggest a more natural example: kill -SIGSTOP gconfd Sep 28 17:22:02 ~zgoldberg Sep 28 17:22:10 Venemo don't make me sad please Sep 28 17:22:15 ~Venemo Sep 28 17:22:24 DocScrutinizer: rm -rf $HOME/.xchat* =) Sep 28 17:22:31 ZogG: see? nothing Sep 28 17:22:39 LOLWUT Sep 28 17:22:39 which is close enough to what you'll encounter on a slow system more often than you like Sep 28 17:22:41 ~zgoldberg is a fake bot with shitty google script that doesn't work :( Sep 28 17:22:42 ZogG: please, watch your language. Sep 28 17:22:46 ~factinfo mohammadag Sep 28 17:22:46 mohammadag -- created by TermanaN900 <~user@123-3-162-89.static.dsl.dodo.com.au> at Thu Aug 19 10:41:18 2010 (40 days); it has been requested 2 times, last by ZogG, 1m 3s ago. Sep 28 17:23:18 Venemo cause you are nothing and i'm awesome, and you just jealous =) Sep 28 17:23:26 MohammadAG, lol Sep 28 17:23:29 ~factinfo ZogG Sep 28 17:23:29 zogg -- created by DocScrutinizer <~jr@openmoko/engineers/joerg> at Mon May 10 13:53:31 2010 (141 days); it has been requested once, last by ZogG, 2m 18s ago. Sep 28 17:23:32 ZogG: lol at you too Sep 28 17:23:32 ~forget mohammadag Sep 28 17:23:33 i forgot mohammadag, MohammadAG Sep 28 17:23:44 DocScrutinizer, =* Sep 28 17:23:53 MohammadAG cheater =( Sep 28 17:24:03 MohammadAG and how do i add Sep 28 17:24:12 javispedro: the difference is my xchat file won't vanish out of itself, while your gconfd is known to eat up 30% of cpu for nothing, and brings systems to a grinding halt, even without somebody doing a kill -sigstop Sep 28 17:24:33 doc has a point there Sep 28 17:24:36 just define one Sep 28 17:24:55 // ~foo is bar Sep 28 17:25:23 /~remember might work as well Sep 28 17:25:27 DocScrutinizer: aren't you confusing gconfd with pulseaudio? =) Sep 28 17:25:41 ~zgoldberg Sep 28 17:25:46 ~zgoldberg Sep 28 17:26:00 javispedro: positively not Sep 28 17:26:30 gconf is an abomination, system architecture wise Sep 28 17:26:52 invented by winheads Sep 28 17:27:10 who think they're smart Sep 28 17:27:41 gconf, dconf, QSettings --- ohhhhhhh Sep 28 17:27:42 well, gconf is just another library for storing configuration Sep 28 17:27:58 Khertan when you read my msg, pm me Sep 28 17:28:25 Venemo: no, it's a centralized process, for no good reason Sep 28 17:28:28 Scelt: using PIL is still loads faster Sep 28 17:28:38 frals: how can it be :( Sep 28 17:28:51 DocScrutinizer, that's awful Sep 28 17:29:01 DocScrutinizer: there's reasons. but you don't like them. Sep 28 17:29:02 yes, indeed Sep 28 17:29:03 frals: n900 can't be _that_ slow Sep 28 17:29:28 javispedro: no, I proven them wrong in 10 min, see backscroll Sep 28 17:30:03 there IS NO good reason to have a centralized config daemon Sep 28 17:30:16 DocScrutinizer, agreed Sep 28 17:30:21 DocScrutinizer: agreed :-) Sep 28 17:30:59 DocScrutinizer: so what you'd do for notifications? Sep 28 17:31:24 DocScrutinizer: also note that Windows "does not have a central daemon" btw (other than the kernel itself) Sep 28 17:31:27 why do we need any notifications beyond what inotify can do for everybody? Sep 28 17:31:45 Scelt: in real time PIL is 5x faster using my random picture from camera resized to 320 Sep 28 17:31:51 DocScrutinizer: to make it simpler for programmers Sep 28 17:31:57 blabla Sep 28 17:32:09 wrap it into a lib, done you are Sep 28 17:32:12 DocScrutinizer: i'd like to have notifications more granular than "something has changed in file X" Sep 28 17:32:28 uhuh, why? Sep 28 17:32:33 frals: maybe then the image rescaling process isn't the real reason for mms sending to take so long Sep 28 17:32:33 DocScrutinizer, afaik it *is* wrapped into a lib (at least I use it as a lib) Sep 28 17:32:50 DocScrutinizer: so all your argument is that inotify+open+parsing xml file is faster than reading from a unix socket the changed setting? Sep 28 17:33:01 WiFi is freaking useless. Sep 28 17:33:02 Scelt: no, its slow because in most cases it sets up a new gprs context and does a bunch of dns resolving Sep 28 17:33:08 GAN900: how so? Sep 28 17:33:12 no, my argument is against having a central PROCESS Sep 28 17:33:26 frals: I understand Sep 28 17:33:37 DocScrutinizer: it's a central process doing the parsing for many processes. Sep 28 17:33:46 frals: then I was wrong. sorry for wasting your time :P Sep 28 17:33:55 and caching, and notifications, and locking, ... Sep 28 17:33:55 the mustn't be bottlenecks when no need exists to implement them Sep 28 17:33:57 gprs context is something like 10 seconds, and if in havoc mode then dns is >30 secs usually Sep 28 17:34:06 Scelt: heh, no worries :) Sep 28 17:34:26 frals: why havoc takes over 30 secs? Sep 28 17:34:38 dns resolution and setting up routes Sep 28 17:34:46 javispedro: great, so on a 16 core, how does friggin gconfd scale? Sep 28 17:34:48 DocScrutinizer: you seem to like rewriting code every time, don't you? Sep 28 17:34:53 frals: okay Sep 28 17:34:59 Scelt: dont ask me why its that slow but it usually is on gprs Sep 28 17:35:04 liori: you seem to ignore the concept of libs Sep 28 17:35:05 Venemo, I've never used a WiFi device that approached anything resembling consistent reliability. Sep 28 17:35:22 DocScrutinizer: as much as you want. Sep 28 17:35:31 uhu, I see Sep 28 17:35:32 DocScrutinizer: so give me a lib which has the same features I mentioned Sep 28 17:36:11 GAN900: hm, well the one in my laptop is okay, but the wi-fi in the N900 is quite unreliable indeed Sep 28 17:36:13 liori: so your point is, however shitty the concept of gconf, you'll use it just because it exists. Good point Sep 28 17:36:19 GAN900: fortunately, it works most of the time Sep 28 17:36:27 frals: yeah. I'm just thinking about S60 symbian mms sending and how fast it is compared to fmms. I know it's very different system but that's why I thought that image rescaling must be done some odd way but I guess it's just something more core that there is the difference Sep 28 17:36:54 DocScrutinizer: no, we are telling: give us a sane alternate implementation. Sep 28 17:36:59 DocScrutinizer: yes, especially because its abstract api allows to change gconf internals... for example to make it faster; you're free to do so, it is open source Sep 28 17:37:11 Scelt: afaik its pretty darn slow there as well but it does it in the background after the user presses send Sep 28 17:37:24 liori: now you're getting completely silly Sep 28 17:37:30 Scelt: and it doesnt have to do the route shit since im pretty sure symbian can handle 2 networks Sep 28 17:37:40 frals: oh yes. it goes to "outbox" Sep 28 17:38:05 frals: then maybe fmms will have outbox feature too in the future :) Sep 28 17:38:16 Scelt: i doubt it ;) Sep 28 17:38:37 Scelt: should be able to just switch application after pressing send ;) Sep 28 17:38:41 meh, fighting adopted nonsense always is a lost battle. I actually couldn't act more stupid than continuing this debate Sep 28 17:38:48 frals: that's true Sep 28 17:39:16 what the ef.. rim playbook netpad has a rear facing camera Sep 28 17:39:46 DocScrutinizer: just wait until you say "microkernels suck" =) Sep 28 17:40:02 DocScrutinizer: you could also make a completely new library with the same api as gconf, I'd be grateful Sep 28 17:40:22 * DocScrutinizer shoots back with a HURD RULEZ Sep 28 17:40:37 thank god :) Sep 28 17:43:26 anyway, unix config files are plain text - first rule of OSI layer 11 Sep 28 17:43:40 lindi-: trying to get the entire story, seems that somewhere in early gconf history there was a fork where they implemented a sane dbus interface to the daemon. unfortunately, upstream went for the "corba over dbus" branch I just learn of its existence today. Maemo went with the dbus branch. Sep 28 17:44:02 hm, gconf bo longer stores stuff as plain text files? Sep 28 17:44:10 plain xml files =) Sep 28 17:44:29 ah Sep 28 17:44:38 it could be worse Sep 28 17:45:15 sqlite or something and we'd be waiting 10s for every bool true to bool false modification to be pushed out to emmc Sep 28 17:45:52 i prefer the qsetting api : Sep 28 17:45:53 :) Sep 28 17:46:03 Khertan: agreed Sep 28 17:46:31 previously i avoid gconf and use python configparser :) Sep 28 17:46:49 (10s) couldn't bother less. Who, when, why, and how often is going to do such change on a global config setting anyway Sep 28 17:47:11 And MOO to you all, dear geeks Sep 28 17:47:23 hey RST38h Sep 28 17:47:24 dear, dear. Sep 28 17:47:43 dear deer Sep 28 17:47:55 javispedro: anything new and exciting (or horrible enough to be of notion)? Sep 28 17:48:24 not really Sep 28 17:49:57 * timeless_pidgin is in cork ... Sep 28 17:50:35 javispedro: btw locking. F you got more than one process allowed to change same setting var, you quite surely did something wrong Sep 28 17:50:44 If Sep 28 17:50:54 is there anyone here who lives in the USA? Sep 28 17:51:25 * Khertan is waiting the new Diablo 2 ladder start Sep 28 17:51:57 * javispedro needs to go out Sep 28 17:52:12 we'll continue the gconf flamewar latter =) Sep 28 17:52:13 I'd like to know if the new SGU episode is aired yet Sep 28 17:52:23 Venemo: So, did U try installing MeeGo on Ur N900? Sep 28 17:52:27 *later Sep 28 17:53:08 vkvraju: I haven't... since it is my main phone, too, I would prefer a stable OS :) Sep 28 17:53:31 same here. But just was curious enough to give it a try Sep 28 17:54:59 vkvraju: I'm curious too, but I will resist temptation until it is declared to be stable Sep 28 17:55:14 thats fine. Sep 28 17:55:18 Venemo: generally there are a few... Sep 28 17:55:35 so, none here tried the latest meego image then :( Sep 28 17:56:00 Wouldn't that be #meego-n900 ? Sep 28 17:56:13 meego-arm maybe? Sep 28 17:56:18 timeless_pidgin: there are a few what? Sep 28 17:56:29 Usa residents Sep 28 17:57:03 no, that is meego-arm. But people seem to be damn busy over there. No one responded Sep 28 17:57:03 But why did you ask? Sep 28 17:57:43 X-Fade: ping Sep 28 17:57:46 ~seen X-Fade Sep 28 17:57:56 I booted meego today but the screen went blank and never recovered back from that state Sep 28 17:57:58 x-fade is currently on #maemo (1d 8h 29m 57s) #meego (1d 8h 29m 57s), last said: 'Morning'. Sep 28 17:58:24 Definitely #meego-arm ... Sep 28 17:58:26 and people were reported succesful making and receiving calls and SMS's with this latest image Sep 28 17:59:18 X-Fade: could you please help with this? http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=63042 I'm also getting this issue Sep 28 17:59:20 someone take out the repository mirror from the topic Sep 28 17:59:20 it's dead Sep 28 18:01:47 X-Fade, you killed the repo Sep 28 18:01:51 * MohammadAG kills X-Fade :P Sep 28 18:02:18 ~burn X-Fade Sep 28 18:02:19 * infobot pours gasoline all over X-Fade, ignites the fire, and then enjoys some toasty marshmallows with the glorious blaze Sep 28 18:02:41 ~seen Stskeeps Sep 28 18:02:46 stskeeps is currently on #maemo (2d 11h 42m 12s) #meego (2d 11h 42m 12s). Has said a total of 99 messages. Is idling for 33m, last said: 'andre__: haxx0r'. Sep 28 18:03:02 ~seen andre__ Sep 28 18:03:04 andre__ is currently on #maemo (9h 46m 26s) #meego (9h 46m 26s). Has said a total of 12 messages. Is idling for 32m 50s, last said: 'Stskeeps, sorry, cannot resist to try default settings sometimes.'. Sep 28 18:11:43 josemartins: that explains why i did not find the code from debian Sep 28 18:12:33 re Sep 28 18:13:18 can I somehow persuade my charger to not make annoying noises? Sep 28 18:13:31 give him a good spanking Sep 28 18:13:56 akami does suck all the way Sep 28 18:13:57 yhh Sep 28 18:14:20 kerio: lol Sep 28 18:14:20 :D Sep 28 18:14:50 This doesn't look good: http://repository.maemo.org/extras/dists/fremantle/free/binary-armel/Packages.gz Sep 28 18:15:16 tobis87: for some people it looks just right :) Sep 28 18:18:21 Did you try to open it in the browser? Sep 28 18:18:35 tobis87: (it doesn't work at all for me here too) Sep 28 18:20:54 "Atheism is an effect of that knowledge, not a lack of knowledge. I gave a Bible to my daughter. That's how you make atheists." Sep 28 18:20:57 eeek. Sep 28 18:28:57 okey, where do the app manager keeps its sources list? Sep 28 18:29:09 it seems i can't touch maemo.org repo in the gui Sep 28 18:29:09 :S Sep 28 18:29:12 crap! Sep 28 18:30:19 dRbiG: /etc/apt/sources.list.d/hildon-application-manager.list Sep 28 18:31:06 Btw, there is no gnu version of awk availible? Sep 28 18:31:35 Ooh, cork airport has free wifi! Sep 28 18:32:16 Oh well, in the sdk repo... Sep 28 18:32:20 At least that part of the world is not vulnerable to sea-level rise. Sep 28 18:33:02 Speedevil? Iirc there's a shortage of cork trees... Sep 28 18:36:02 hmm, i changed the path in the /etc/apt/sources.list.d/hildon-application-manager.list but in the app manager i still se the old one with the error :S Sep 28 18:36:32 That file is generated Sep 28 18:36:41 You need to edit the original xml file... Sep 28 18:37:18 and where is that? and what is the point of showing me repo details if i can't change them in the gui :/ Sep 28 18:40:25 You can edit most repos from the gui.. Sep 28 18:40:39 Iirc you can disable some of the others... Sep 28 18:41:54 Offhand, it sounds like you're missing something Sep 28 18:42:03 What repo is bothering you, and how. Sep 28 18:42:14 the main maemo.org repo Sep 28 18:42:36 akami is broken and _here_ i don't have access to packages list etc. Sep 28 18:43:32 timeless_pidgin: http://paste.org/pastebin/view/22936 this are the contents of http://repository.maemo.org/extras/dists/fremantle/free/binary-armel/Packages.gz Sep 28 18:44:07 hi, my n900 seems to get very sluggish after 3 days of uptime. can someone help me track what is cauzing this? Sep 28 18:45:10 evilbulg1rian: it's because you didn't reboot it in 3 days Sep 28 18:45:16 evilbulg1rian, record output of just afterbootup and then do same once you notice sluggishness Sep 28 18:45:29 then evaluate each app with extraudinary memory increases Sep 28 18:45:33 output of what? Sep 28 18:47:39 ideally htop Sep 28 18:48:25 ok thanks Sep 28 18:48:26 seems difficult to redirect it to a file plaintext though Sep 28 18:49:08 the nokia guys talk about sp-endurance but I haven't looked at it Sep 28 18:49:37 btw, swap rollover slowdown is so noticeable for me I can usually tell exactly when it happens Sep 28 18:49:39 ShadowJK: hmm? Sep 28 18:50:15 yeah, I was about to suggest a swap swap to evilbulgonerian Sep 28 18:50:20 some set of tools in the sdk tools repo for collecting long time memory use data Sep 28 18:50:40 aah Sep 28 18:50:52 swap swap? Sep 28 18:50:57 top -n 1 >log.log Sep 28 18:51:22 kerio: swapon $swap2; swapoff $swap1 Sep 28 18:51:28 oh, i see Sep 28 18:51:32 isn't swap a partition? Sep 28 18:51:40 it is Sep 28 18:51:56 oh, so you make a file, swapon it, swapoff the partition and then viceversa? Sep 28 18:52:04 yup Sep 28 18:52:27 takes some 3 minutes to complete, but really should do wonders Sep 28 18:52:39 meh, i just reboot anyway Sep 28 18:52:47 or rather, shutdown, change battery, boot Sep 28 18:53:01 hehehe Sep 28 18:53:22 my usb port is still broken btw Sep 28 18:53:46 can i file a bug for "The N900 doesn't repair itself"? Sep 28 18:54:00 btw even though it's swap that causes the sluggish device after some days, for me it usually never reaches that state. Seems my swapping isn't that bad Sep 28 18:54:28 got uptimes of >20days without noticing any problems in system performance Sep 28 18:55:02 but then I'm rarely ever using any browser based applications Sep 28 18:55:28 also got no live wallpapers or other "funny" things, like twitter or skype Sep 28 18:59:17 kerio: the borg in it are infected by a virus telling them to rest Sep 28 18:59:48 dammit Sep 28 18:59:50 >.< Sep 28 18:59:50 kerio: known bug, the borg never worked like expected, on N900 Sep 28 19:03:46 what's /usr/sbin/browserd -s 1443 -n RTComMessagingServer Sep 28 19:04:20 it's using ~10% of my mem Sep 28 19:04:22 :-S Sep 28 19:05:00 huh... the messages? Sep 28 19:05:55 Gah, ryanair is evil Sep 28 19:06:21 Not only do you have to check in online 4 hours in advance Sep 28 19:06:37 You actually have to *print* your boarding pass Sep 28 19:06:54 nah, that's not true Sep 28 19:07:04 you can carry the pdf on a cellphone or something Sep 28 19:07:09 hmmmmm. how to add a preset to availability with e.g. busy and a custom text? Sep 28 19:07:12 No Sep 28 19:07:18 they specifically require paper? Sep 28 19:07:19 :( Sep 28 19:07:23 poor trees Sep 28 19:07:41 As i'm not EU, they had to *stamp* my card as visa/passport checked Sep 28 19:08:09 oh, you suck then Sep 28 19:08:13 unless you're from switzerland Sep 28 19:08:18 (and even then...) Sep 28 19:08:33 you don't have to print it Sep 28 19:08:38 Thankfully the pdf was on my n900, so i scp'd it to a web server and used a kiosk for .20eu-ecent to download it. And someone else's .50eu-cent to print it Sep 28 19:08:40 you can opt for airport check in Sep 28 19:08:43 and then they print it Sep 28 19:08:46 but it costs Sep 28 19:08:53 They charge 40 eur! Sep 28 19:09:31 hey, the point of ryan air is to be cheap, paper in mass quantities costs a lot Sep 28 19:09:47 not to mention toner/ink made of unicorn blood ;) Sep 28 19:11:11 dRbiG: you mean they use ink that's cheaper than normal inkjet ink? Sep 28 19:11:15 besides, where are you from? Sep 28 19:11:52 regular unicorn? Sep 28 19:12:20 SpeedEvil: i mean that if you can run any company and limit the user of paper and printing technologies then you're going to save shitloads of money Sep 28 19:12:23 dRbiG: point of ryanair is to make profit Sep 28 19:12:33 dRbiG: they make profit on additional services Sep 28 19:12:44 jacekowski: they also make profit cutting costs Sep 28 19:12:49 "additional" Sep 28 19:13:00 This is just an evil hidden fee Sep 28 19:13:06 yeah, internet checkin is free Sep 28 19:13:14 and most people are using internet check in Sep 28 19:13:24 it's your fault for not being a EU citizen :) Sep 28 19:13:25 I *used* internet check in Sep 28 19:13:30 EU is awesome Sep 28 19:13:34 timeless_pidgin: where are you from? Sep 28 19:13:35 once again, avoid calling yourself "most people" Sep 28 19:13:36 i mean, if you don't like printing your ticket then go for an airline that does that for you Sep 28 19:13:37 Kerio: you got me there. Sep 28 19:14:03 RST38h: most people that fly ryanair *do* use internet checkin Sep 28 19:14:10 because it's free :) Sep 28 19:14:15 you'll pay more to get it printed by them, but it's your choice Sep 28 19:14:17 Not free here Sep 28 19:14:27 timeless_pidgin: where are you from? Sep 28 19:14:29 It cost me .70eur Sep 28 19:14:34 timeless_pidgin: you never answered that question Sep 28 19:14:36 most people that fly ryanair are EU citizens Sep 28 19:15:06 i mean, ryanair is european Sep 28 19:15:06 Jacekowksi: most people know the answer to that one... Sep 28 19:15:19 hmm... 86.47.49.9... Sep 28 19:15:23 well, i was thinking you live in IE Sep 28 19:15:28 but IE is in EU Sep 28 19:15:30 Um, no Sep 28 19:15:33 I live in .fi Sep 28 19:15:42 I'm *currently* in .ie Sep 28 19:15:43 your /whois says you're in ireland Sep 28 19:15:44 yeah Sep 28 19:15:52 but IE is in schengen Sep 28 19:15:55 ehh Sep 28 19:15:56 And i'm flying to .uk Sep 28 19:15:57 FI* Sep 28 19:16:10 when and where? Sep 28 19:16:12 and what for? Sep 28 19:16:20 i'm in UK Sep 28 19:16:21 Oddly not everyone living in a country was born there... Sep 28 19:16:27 and lcUK is n UK Sep 28 19:16:29 huh, relying on /whois is a bad choice ;) Sep 28 19:16:33 I'm headed to liverpool for the weekend Sep 28 19:16:50 Typically whois for timeless would say washington state iirc Sep 28 19:17:02 I've only been to SEA (airport) Sep 28 19:17:03 * RST38h is probably in .8h, following the same principle Sep 28 19:17:07 whois for me says unaffiliated/kerio92 :) Sep 28 19:17:31 Oh, these days whois for timeless should probably say /mozilla something Sep 28 19:18:07 timeless_pidgin: i wanted to ask you... why can't firefox just allow for codec plugins for