**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Sun Oct 03 02:59:57 2010 Oct 03 04:37:05 hmm Oct 03 04:37:21 possible to get Maemo to write video/audio uncompressed? Oct 03 04:37:25 or at least close? Oct 03 04:42:39 luke-jr: audio for sure, video likely never Oct 03 04:43:49 the fcam drivers dont include video right? .. and i suspect the video processing is already done in the cameras firmware and the bandwidth of the platform wont allow uncompressed video Oct 03 04:54:47 cehteh: MJPEG? DV? Oct 03 04:56:19 its mjpeg isnt it? Oct 03 04:56:36 I thought it was MPEG-4 Oct 03 04:56:41 i dont know any mobile camera which does DV Oct 03 04:57:11 DV format, not physicla DV :P Oct 03 04:57:37 N900 has 148 extra pixels to the width than my DV camcorder Oct 03 04:57:39 ah it is mpeg4 Oct 03 04:57:44 and the latter has stuck pixels Oct 03 06:41:07 I can't change to environment sb-conf: You must close your other Scratchbox sessions first Oct 03 06:41:25 what did I do? Oct 03 06:42:39 I can't change to environment sb-conf: You must close your other Scratchbox sessions first Oct 03 06:42:42 what did I do? Oct 03 06:50:55 Hi, I can't change to environment sb-conf: You must close your other S Oct 03 06:51:10 cratchbox sessions first Oct 03 06:52:13 MohammadAG51: Hi, I can't change to environment sb-conf: You must close your other Scratchbox sessions first Oct 03 06:54:00 And non-ascii chars inside scratchbox not displaying, I can't input them either Oct 03 06:57:39 !ops Oct 03 06:57:44 Hi, I can't change to environment sb-conf: You must close your other Scratchbox sessions first Oct 03 06:57:57 And non-ascii chars inside scratchbox not displaying, I can't input them either Oct 03 06:59:19 hopeless Oct 03 07:07:15 Hello! Here speak Russian? Oct 03 07:10:29 Here is who speaks Russian? I do not speak English! Oct 03 07:12:20 Русские! Ёба! Вы где? Oct 03 07:12:23 no Oct 03 07:12:40 your english seems fine to me Oct 03 07:16:37 I want to ask about the smb protocol to n900. Oct 03 07:17:25 Port TinySmb support server only Oct 03 07:19:05 I want full support samba on n900. Or other local-net protocol/ Oct 03 07:21:03 Is this possible? Oct 03 07:22:10 haltdef, hey! Oct 03 07:22:40 it would be possible to package samba, but no one has done it yet I think Oct 03 07:25:31 But there are able to compile from source? And do not wait for release ported version. Oct 03 07:26:07 yes. you could compile samba from source if you setup the maemo sdk Oct 03 07:30:42 And there is not any problems with this setup, without special porting in maemo 5? Oct 03 07:37:25 What is the porting of any software in maemo5? Porting GUI and compilation Deb package for maemo? And only? Oct 03 07:41:10 Or need to edit the source? Oct 03 07:50:23 MaSlaff, I don't know if it the source will need to be modified. It might. It might not. Oct 03 07:50:41 the only way to know is to try. Oct 03 07:54:21 Ok, thanks! I will try. Oct 03 08:33:44 Morning, all Oct 03 09:01:17 hi why in n900 if sms just received and i press on/off button it doesnt show notification icon at the bottom of the clock ? Oct 03 09:22:34 * timeless_pidgin grumbles Oct 03 09:22:56 The wifi here has a "you can't spell" dns feature enabled Oct 03 09:31:01 timeless_pidgin: lrn2level3/gdns Oct 03 09:38:43 * Jaffa 's Maemo Development of the day is done: http://www.maemopeople.org/index.php/jaffa/2010/10/03/here_and_now_what_s_on_near_you_now Oct 03 09:43:04 Kerio : ever tried that w/ an n900? Oct 03 09:43:25 hmm... i did not? Oct 03 09:43:26 Especially when dealing w/ lots of random cellular providers. Plus one vpn Oct 03 09:44:59 hmm anyone knows what scripts n900's ash reads on start? Oct 03 09:45:02 .profile on login Oct 03 09:45:16 and what will it read as an rc file? .ashrc? .shrc? Oct 03 09:49:52 nvm, got it ;) Oct 03 09:50:24 morning all Oct 03 09:50:27 10 pages in to "unread fora of interest" on tmo and nothing of interest yet. Oct 03 09:50:41 ~tmo Oct 03 09:50:42 methinks tmo is http://talk.maemo.org, or too much off-topic Oct 03 09:51:43 I found out the missing 3G internet connection- it somehow switched names with the MMS connection and the "3G Internet" vanished when I removed fMMS Oct 03 09:52:23 still that priority for it is low, which I would fix using gconftool-2 so it will appear first when choosing network connectio and no other better wifis are around Oct 03 09:52:41 I think this is a general bug with the lists or gconf storage, Oct 03 09:52:47 this also happens with contacts after the update Oct 03 09:52:52 very *odd* Oct 03 09:53:38 So I got and SMS, from a number not in the contacts, and number which has a contact entry lost it's contact name, the former took its name and i had to manually change it but it is still switchign the names occassionally Oct 03 09:54:36 Keep in mind that breaking .profile will probably mostly brick your device Oct 03 09:55:41 timeless_pidgin: I don't think I've touched it, but the backup restoration probably does? Oct 03 09:57:10 timeless_pidgin: never the less, the pr1.2 although not smooth and perfect made some rather annoying issues better Oct 03 09:57:29 and modest at least seems to be fetching messages quicker and not hang Oct 03 09:57:37 Jaffa: can i install here-and-now from extras? Oct 03 09:57:48 timeless_pidgin: -devel atm Oct 03 09:57:54 Sivang : i have to catch a train in less than an hour. Oct 03 09:58:08 timeless_pidgin: need help with maps and stuff? :) Oct 03 09:58:21 Last travel day, train takes me to airport. Airport takes me home Oct 03 09:58:29 Kinda anyway Oct 03 09:58:36 timeless_pidgin: If it works for anyone else, I'll promote to -testing Oct 03 09:58:49 Trying to grab it now Oct 03 09:59:36 Did you use their name? Oct 03 09:59:44 I'd hope they tm'd the name... Oct 03 09:59:58 If so, -1 for name theft :) Oct 03 10:00:46 timeless_pidgin: It's their service ;-p Oct 03 10:01:02 seems it works for me Oct 03 10:01:18 though it's a bit disapointing to see it's just a web service in the end :) Oct 03 10:01:20 Jaffa: you've ported the N8 code or wrote something from scratch for N900? Oct 03 10:01:24 timeless_pidgin: TM infringement would be if I was using it for something else ;-) Oct 03 10:01:34 Are there still new mobiles using maemo? The nokia N900 changed to megoo didn`t it? (is meego as good as maemo, does it have a bash shell?) Oct 03 10:01:40 and it's not exactly precise, it gives me movies not really near me Oct 03 10:01:45 this is exactly what Lonely Planet does on N97mini Oct 03 10:01:53 sivang: I reverse engineered the URL it opens on an N8 and used a dbus call from a shell script to get the same info on Maemo, then another dbus call to open the browser Oct 03 10:01:53 so they have their own service now? Oct 03 10:02:10 Since it should be possible to compile bash applications, is there any smartphone, which owns an USB-Host? Oct 03 10:02:22 Jaffa, worksforme :) Oct 03 10:02:23 Freak5: The N8 can do USB host. Oct 03 10:02:29 OTG* Oct 03 10:02:36 True Oct 03 10:02:38 Jaffa : like Youtube and Gmail Oct 03 10:02:39 Jaffa: reverese engineered the URL? :) Oct 03 10:02:50 Jaffa: is the N8 released already? Oct 03 10:02:53 the N900 can do USB host mode, kinda iffy at the moment Oct 03 10:03:57 sivang: http://ics.svc.ovi.com/ics/app?page=livestream/herenow&service=page&mcc=234&mnc=15&cmcc=234&cmnc=15&cid=37032&bear=&lac=177&language=1&width=800&height=480&tz=p0100&vejr=HN_S60_2.0 for example. Oct 03 10:04:29 Jaffa: thanks, location stuff is interesting. Oct 03 10:04:37 Jaffa : +1 for sticking it in the location and navigation category Oct 03 10:04:42 timeless_pidgin: :-) Oct 03 10:04:57 But you seem to have recycled a browser window -10 f9r that Oct 03 10:05:03 Please get your own window Oct 03 10:05:15 timeless_pidgin: it helps on the N900 :) Oct 03 10:05:39 Jaffa, push it into -testing, it has my vote :) Oct 03 10:05:40 Jaffa: OVI has so many faces... Oct 03 10:06:23 huh? :) http://ics.svc.ovi.com/ics/app?page=travel31/LonelyPoiOverview&service=page&language=1&entryPoint=5&geox=-1.275&geoy=52.315&language=1&countrycode=GB&metric=1&mcc=234&cmcc=234&tz=p0100 Oct 03 10:06:45 Jaffa : web title (because they're idiots) is "Here and now" Oct 03 10:06:51 Not title caps Oct 03 10:07:07 timeless_pidgin: What's the DBUS call for new window? I couldn't get it reliably when writing it on the train Oct 03 10:07:33 Ask sp3000 Oct 03 10:08:27 Please add a line to long description clarifying that the app just launches nokia's thing Oct 03 10:08:40 That satisfies my first objection Oct 03 10:08:47 timeless_pidgin: "connects to Nokia's web site for the service" Oct 03 10:09:15 Jaffa: it's nice, wonder why LP or here and now is not in N900 officially Oct 03 10:09:33 where do I vote? ;) Oct 03 10:09:38 timeless_pidgin: I'll add a further clarification Oct 03 10:10:15 sivang: I'm going to the tip now; will fix browser window reuse, remove extraneous UUID from URL and further disclaim in the description when I get back Oct 03 10:11:17 Jaffa: great, you ahve my vote as well Oct 03 10:11:52 Jaffa: would be nice if you could publish your findings for how the URL is constructed :-p Oct 03 10:12:52 sivang: Read /usr/bin/here-and-now. It's pretty trivial; but I'll do a follow up blog post ;-) Oct 03 10:13:29 MohammadAG: But when I try to use the USB host of the N900 I need an external power source and an selfbuild adapter, don't I? Oct 03 10:14:24 Jaffa: great :) Oct 03 10:15:36 Freak5, you dont need a selfbuilt adapter, you can buy the adapters from ebay Oct 03 10:16:17 TermanaN900: But I still need external power to activate the mode, don't I? Oct 03 10:16:32 not for a flash drive Oct 03 10:16:34 So you mean a non standard adapter, too Oct 03 10:16:43 ?? Oct 03 10:16:45 or a 2.4GHz mouse transceiver Oct 03 10:16:50 or a hub with both of those Oct 03 10:17:14 or a hub with a 2.4GHz t., a keyboard, and a flash drive Oct 03 10:17:19 The internetsources I found told me that the USB-Host mode is only activated if I get external power, because the N900 doesn't deliver any power Oct 03 10:18:07 it can deliver 200mA @ 5V Oct 03 10:18:12 you read the wrong sources Oct 03 10:18:41 When it can do that what is the problem with its USB-Host again? Oct 03 10:18:42 hi Oct 03 10:18:43 Jaffa, where did you get the here and now icon from? Oct 03 10:19:00 hmm, is it known that SB should fail with no HALD on ubuntu 10.04.1 ? Oct 03 10:19:08 the nokia service is awesome btw Oct 03 10:19:15 thanks for making it accessible Oct 03 10:19:26 Freak5, read http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p=824197&postcount=218 Oct 03 10:19:36 Because if the N900 can use a keyboard or a flashdrive while acting as a host, I am quite confident so use my AVR ISP ^^ Oct 03 10:19:36 just a quick question, is there any way i can boost the builtin speakers of my N900, other than modifying the hardware? Oct 03 10:20:31 TiagoTiago, bat ears Oct 03 10:20:40 lol Oct 03 10:20:47 TiagoTiago, modify the limit in the kernel, if it works anything like QSD boards Oct 03 10:20:47 the sound from the speakers comes out sideways Oct 03 10:21:03 find a way to cup the sound and deflect it towards your face and ears Oct 03 10:21:12 ie, add a pair of batears to the sides Oct 03 10:21:16 and the ound will be louder Oct 03 10:21:19 i promise Oct 03 10:21:28 it's quite dispointing my old N73 sounds louder and better than my expensive N900 :( Oct 03 10:22:31 where are the speakers on the n73? Oct 03 10:22:39 top and bottom Oct 03 10:22:53 but the N73 had epic speakers Oct 03 10:23:10 imo the best speakers were on the N73, N95, and the 5800 Oct 03 10:23:45 why did Nokia not give the N900 similar awesomeness? Oct 03 10:24:08 TiagoTiago, N900 has awesomeness in other areas Oct 03 10:24:14 well Oct 03 10:24:19 probably because N900 was targeted for niche market Oct 03 10:24:22 anyone willing to take one for the team? Oct 03 10:24:30 play around with CONFIG_CMDLINE="init=/sbin/preinit ubi.mtd=rootfs root=ubi0:rootfs rootfstype=ubifs rootflags=bulk_read,no_chk_data_crc rw console=ttyMTD,log console=tty0 snd-soc-rx51.hp_lim=42 snd-soc-tlv320aic3x.hp_dac_lim=6" Oct 03 10:24:40 they ran out of money in the budget? Oct 03 10:24:42 your speakers might implode or such Oct 03 10:25:18 Are you the MohammadAG mentioned in that post? Sounds quite cool, although I am not as confident anymore that the programmer works, since it doesn't even work when using windows, so why should it work when the Host itself is not rly stable. Oct 03 10:25:19 Just one last question. Is this bounded to maemo or could I use it when using meego, since that seems to be the new OS on the phone(I should get some information about reinstalling the OS when playing around like that, anyhow...) Oct 03 10:25:45 anyone who wants to have a go, use flasher-3.5 --boot="init=/sbin/preinit ubi.mtd=rootfs root=ubi0:rootfs rootfstype=ubifs rootflags=bulk_read,no_chk_data_crc rw console=ttyMTD,log console=tty0 snd-soc-rx51.hp_lim=42 snd-soc-tlv320aic3x.hp_dac_lim=6" Oct 03 10:25:50 It is a kernel update, so there is no chance for meego, sin'tit? Oct 03 10:26:01 play with the sound limits or so Oct 03 10:26:12 again, speakers might be damaged on the HW level Oct 03 10:26:43 there isn't a hardware limitator? Oct 03 10:26:58 Freak5, it's a custom kernel, it's prealpha, it's not a proper release yet so I won't go around checking the differences between both 2.6.28 and 2.6.35 Oct 03 10:27:28 thx Oct 03 10:27:35 TiagoTiago, not sure, in nitdroid the speakers are louder and have more bass, which might be causing damage to the N900s in the long run Oct 03 10:27:46 Freak5, http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=824298 Oct 03 10:28:07 MohammadAG: MNZ was working on a good equalizer/filter Oct 03 10:28:31 kerio, was? I thought he's still working on it Oct 03 10:28:44 do you know where i can find a comparison of the specs of the speakers on the N900 and the N73? Oct 03 10:28:54 gerund Oct 03 10:28:54  Oct 03 10:29:05 lol Oct 03 10:29:32 fucking tenses, how do they work Oct 03 10:29:41 http://revdkathy.tumblr.com/post/1234052384/for-you-followers-of-the-ryder-cup Oct 03 10:29:55 golfing humour :D Oct 03 10:30:39 i wish i knew how to speak (and understand) lojban, same for most of the people i chat with Oct 03 10:31:30 [xkcd here] Oct 03 10:33:23 heh Oct 03 10:36:42 http://cache.gawker.com/assets/images/gizmodo/2010/10/bscoutswh.jpg Oct 03 10:37:39 is that for real? Oct 03 10:39:01 yes Oct 03 10:39:26 Where can i read about how Nokia came to the decision of cripling the audio n the N900 to help increase it's durability? Or they haven't talked about it openlly? Oct 03 10:40:29 When playing around with the Software of the N900 I can't screw it in a way that I can't reflash it anymore, can I? Oct 03 10:40:47 Freak5: not if you don't screw the battery, I think Oct 03 10:40:56 So I will always be able to turn it of, connect it, pres U and install a new OS... Oct 03 10:40:56 ok Oct 03 10:41:16 I guess you should expect anything positive from such a perverted backwards thinking hypocrit organization Oct 03 10:41:21 I just never flashed a smartphone and was not sure if there is a Bios/OS-connection somehow. Oct 03 10:41:40 Like this new Bios Updates for computers which are installable while you are running Vista Oct 03 10:41:54 Freak5 you depending on what you do you could physicly brick your device using software Oct 03 10:42:07 the BIOS for n900 would be the NOLO Oct 03 10:42:15 I meant like just breaking the kernel ^^ Oct 03 10:42:26 just added portrait mode support to modest's code, seems to work ok, except for text in the buttons realigning Oct 03 10:42:27 MohammadAG: for some reason, I find the CD burner thing hilarious Oct 03 10:42:39 good job :) Oct 03 10:42:58 i think it's because a CD drive is so much bigger than an n900, or something Oct 03 10:43:08 :D Oct 03 10:43:28 anyway, you have finally obsoleted all laptops, nice Oct 03 10:44:06 * MohammadAG goes to find an i7 to USB converter Oct 03 10:44:30 MohammadAG: what's an i7 when it isn't a processor? Oct 03 10:44:37 Sry for my endless questions, but how often does the phone function on your phones actually work when you play around with them? Is that part that stable that it always works or is it a kind of extra on this mini computer which often doesn't? Oct 03 10:44:48 BCMM, a processor :p Oct 03 10:44:57 from what i heard about the "boyscouts of america", kids are no safer with them than with a convent of psychopath pedophile priests Oct 03 10:45:31 wtf @ quit message Oct 03 10:46:04 one can hope he's using that as an adjective rather than a verb Oct 03 10:46:29 lol Oct 03 10:46:50 Freak5: It's worked OK for all my calls. Oct 03 10:47:03 Freak5: But I have made 2 and recieved 3. Oct 03 10:47:16 Sorry. Received 4. Oct 03 10:48:03 i've had no issues with the phone itself, but somtimes when other thoings are freezing the OS the phone program struggles Oct 03 10:48:13 ^^ Phoning is not the main purpose of your phone?... although... my actual main phone is a 1110i and I don't do more calls ^^ Oct 03 10:49:05 the n900 isn't a complete phone, its an internet tablet with phone functionality.. on the phone side of things, the n900 does alright Oct 03 10:49:30 In some ways it's unusually good, in its skype and SIP integration. Oct 03 10:49:39 But... Oct 03 10:49:43 The N900 isn't a phone, it got a phone, it's like a car with a carphone Oct 03 10:50:06 There are issues where a hardware button would be really nice to accept calls. Oct 03 10:50:15 * MohammadAG agrees Oct 03 10:50:16 indeed Oct 03 10:50:21 TiagoTiago: are you from slashdot? Oct 03 10:50:46 (infamous for people turning everything into a car analogies) Oct 03 10:50:57 lol Oct 03 10:51:04 maybe more like a laptop with a 3G modem Oct 03 10:51:09 slashdot is infamous for many things Oct 03 10:51:10 although i guess those usually don't make voice calls Oct 03 10:51:27 It's like a car with fold-down seats. Oct 03 10:51:36 they do if you use Skype Oct 03 10:51:36 It handles cargo OK, but it's not a van. Oct 03 10:51:53 lcuk: yeah, i have a bad feeling that they were the first to popularise a certain website from Christmas Island Oct 03 10:52:13 lol Oct 03 10:53:18 SpeedEvil: the hardware button thing bothers me sometimes when the interface is a little unresponsive Oct 03 10:53:19 lcuk: That's the potentially iffy bit. Artists welcome to draw a replacement. Oct 03 10:53:30 i still think maemo needs to use nice levels some more Oct 03 10:53:51 for example, let the UI for answering a call run with a higher priority Oct 03 10:54:00 jaffa i just use a placeholder icon Oct 03 10:54:16 i mean, if you are installing a large package and get a call, you can find yourself with your ringtone playing for several seconds before the GUI to answer it appears Oct 03 10:54:22 for my stuff, if its iffy, best to not have an issue Oct 03 10:54:35 I am probably in the wrong channel to ask this, but why did nokia actually switch from maemo to meego? Oct 03 10:54:36 i wanna stay and chat more, i wanna contribute to the convo, but i am too sleepy :( Oct 03 10:54:43 cya :( Oct 03 10:55:00 Freak5: they're combining their efforts with intel Oct 03 10:55:01 BCMM, Christmas island? which suffix is that? Oct 03 10:55:06 cx Oct 03 10:55:13 ahh Oct 03 10:55:20 lcuk: i'm trying very hard not to give enough information for people to google it Oct 03 10:55:24 its ok Oct 03 10:55:26 i know now Oct 03 10:55:33 my mind just went blank Oct 03 10:55:37 thankfully Oct 03 10:55:44 if you remember whwre the answr call button should be, somtimes you can answer the call Oct 03 10:55:56 anyway, cya Oct 03 10:56:09 BCMM Oct 03 10:56:19 Freak5: meego is the merger of moblin (intel's linux distro for tiny things) and maemo Oct 03 10:56:35 BCMM So would you switch to meego somewhen? Oct 03 10:56:55 (I think more people are going to use it since some netbooks and tablets are using it, too) Oct 03 10:57:20 I already checked the wiki artikle about meegos history ^^ Oct 03 10:57:47 Freak5: someone may well correct me on this (or tell us to go to #meego), but i believe that meego will not be officially released on the n900 Oct 03 10:57:59 however, many people plan to use it anyway Oct 03 10:58:05 Officially released - no hope. Oct 03 10:58:07 I think meego may become something of what android is like, instead of having a device with an unique platform, it will be more of a software delivery through a set of devices running the same platform Oct 03 10:58:10 what version is modest on the N900? Oct 03 10:58:12 3.2.13-3+0m5? Oct 03 10:58:13 Oh, thx, I thouhgt it already was Oct 03 10:58:13 Simply as it would _vastly_ confuse most users Oct 03 10:58:30 If your phone changes UI totally - ... Oct 03 10:59:10 psycho_oreos: about that: any idea if it's going to have to be RPM-based, or if nokia will be able to make their version use deb? Oct 03 10:59:24 hi Oct 03 10:59:30 It's a packaging format. Oct 03 10:59:37 BCMM, so far from what I can see its still going to be all RPM based I'm afraid.. but best to ask Stskeeps Oct 03 10:59:38 You don't care unless you are barking mad. Oct 03 10:59:58 That's another thing, up to now I only used debian based systems ^^ Oct 03 11:00:01 SpeedEvil, it does matter in the availability of tools for example Oct 03 11:00:04 seriously? rpm? Oct 03 11:00:06 no! Oct 03 11:00:10 SpeedEvil: well you see i was hoping they'd switch to ebuilds... Oct 03 11:00:12 * BCMM ducks Oct 03 11:00:15 wiki says rpm Oct 03 11:00:20 <_llll_> people who react badly to rpm usually have not used an rpm system in the last 10 years Oct 03 11:00:21 I much like ports :) Oct 03 11:00:37 which is quite untrue Oct 03 11:00:59 _llll_, or they've tried an RPM chroot on their N900, and it was shit slow Oct 03 11:01:08 pkgtool! Oct 03 11:01:10 <_llll_> slow in what way? Oct 03 11:01:12 slackware FTW! Oct 03 11:01:13 5 minutes to install xchat is not acceptable Oct 03 11:01:14 I created a homescreen widget with qtcreator. it loaded okay and was displayed. now I changed something (setting sizes and layout) and the widget doesn't appear anymore on any screen. still it vanishes from the list of available widgets in the "add widget" dialog. how could I debug this? does the homscreen application (hildon-desktop?) write a log or so? Oct 03 11:01:19 my very first linux distro was none other than rh8.. and then I gave it a few more chances with centos.. slow and lacked tools Oct 03 11:01:29 pacman! Oct 03 11:01:30 sp3000: ping Oct 03 11:01:55 <_llll_> i think there are more important problems for meego than package format Oct 03 11:02:22 yeah, i mean, will it ship vim by default? Oct 03 11:02:26 package format is fairly important especially when maemo has been using deb eversince Oct 03 11:02:43 I'm not switching to MeeGo Oct 03 11:02:48 so for the package maintainers, devs and what not have to pickup rpm Oct 03 11:02:51 Goliath23: have you tried the qt channel ? Oct 03 11:03:34 MohammadAG: why not? Oct 03 11:03:34 <_llll_> if developers re not competant enough to learn a new format there are bigger problems Oct 03 11:03:41 Goliath23, hrm thats a bug that afaik Venemo got over with his qt app Oct 03 11:03:55 cause of RPM Oct 03 11:04:14 (Sticky notes) Oct 03 11:04:16 dpkg -l modest anyone? please? :) Oct 03 11:04:17 sounds more like one here is acting like a boss.. `yeah, jobs are flexible so people must adapt or be made redundant.' Oct 03 11:04:22 Goliath23, perhaps looking at the differences there Oct 03 11:04:29 since his is a qt app also Oct 03 11:04:35 lcuk: ah okay.. Venemo? do you have an email or so? Oct 03 11:04:44 Sticky Notes is his package Oct 03 11:04:45 MohammadAG, 3.2.13-3+0m5 Oct 03 11:04:46 i get a bit of an impression that meego takes more from moblin than from maemo Oct 03 11:04:48 it has all contact info in Oct 03 11:04:51 psycho_oreos: it's not that hard, actually Oct 03 11:05:00 psycho_oreos, thanks Oct 03 11:05:03 BCMM: well, depends on the perspective Oct 03 11:05:07 psycho_oreos: when you are customed to packaging system, it is more less revolving around the same thing, just a different syntax Oct 03 11:05:12 lcuk: whats his package? Oct 03 11:05:20 BCMM: harmattan was going to be rearchitectured anyway to be a lean and mean qt mobile system Oct 03 11:05:27 <_llll_> it always amuses me how people find packaging so mysterious Oct 03 11:05:29 BCMM: so there's a large bunch of that in there Oct 03 11:05:34 sivang, that's what I'm trying to get at.. and the lack of front end tools or part thereof with rpm Oct 03 11:05:35 Goliath23, http://maemo.org/packages/view/sticky-notes/ Oct 03 11:05:38 MohammadAG, nw Oct 03 11:05:43 source happily available :) Oct 03 11:05:43 lcuk: ah, thank you Oct 03 11:05:50 psycho_oreos: front end tools? Oct 03 11:06:18 <_llll_> rigth... the lack of front end tools is going to matter to the user Oct 03 11:06:20 sivang, e.g. where's the equivalent of dpkg-repack? or apt-mirror? Oct 03 11:06:21 <_llll_> rofl Oct 03 11:06:37 lcuk: will contact him later, gotta go now. thanks! Oct 03 11:06:46 Goliath23, try looking first Oct 03 11:06:51 at differences :) Oct 03 11:06:52 it annoys me that screenshots of OS's always seem to depict the desktop with no applications running Oct 03 11:06:55 -repack is such a hack.. Oct 03 11:06:55 :P Oct 03 11:06:56 OSs Oct 03 11:06:56 I'm not talking on the perspective of simply just the user, I'm talking the lack of front end tools regardless of where you stand Oct 03 11:07:21 BCMM, well if the OS is showing its baseline then its right to Oct 03 11:07:25 psycho_oreos: what's dpkg-repack? I've never used it and I did quite some packaging in Ubuntu Oct 03 11:07:28 but in meegos case its a bit harder Oct 03 11:07:31 lcuk: ? Oct 03 11:07:39 Stskeeps, any equivalent? or rpm just lacks them and one has to make it themselves? what about apt-mirror.. yeah a hack but where's the equivalent for rpm? Oct 03 11:07:43 BCMM, if yo uare looking for screenshots of the OS Oct 03 11:07:48 lcuk: what i meant was that a screenshot of a desktop doesn't tell you anything about the look and feel Oct 03 11:07:57 which is all a screenshot is for Oct 03 11:08:06 <_llll_> becasue the applications are of such a poor standard it would be embarrassing to show them? Oct 03 11:08:09 sivang, packs whatever contained inside an installed deb file along with its infos, etc back into a deb file Oct 03 11:08:54 From the Windows Developer point of view. Is there something I have to care about when I usually use the STL, boost and maybe wxwidgets or QT will it just compile and work? Oct 03 11:08:57 <_llll_> sure sounds like a killer app for a phone. i bet google quake in their boots to know the n900 can do that Oct 03 11:09:16 anyway, since wikipedia is being useless, somebody reassure me that meego for handsets still uses normal x11 windows Oct 03 11:09:19 _llll_, ? Oct 03 11:09:22 also, will it do landscape? Oct 03 11:09:22 psycho_oreos: well, you'll want to look at yum and zypper instead, dpkg and rpm compare, apt and yum compare Oct 03 11:09:25 :P Oct 03 11:09:27 psycho_oreos: what's the real use case for development and package distribution? Oct 03 11:09:48 <_llll_> lcuk: dpkg-repack is apparently key to, wrell, i dont even know what Oct 03 11:09:58 okey, ported and packaged lftp; works but ssl not tested yet :) Oct 03 11:10:01 Stskeeps, I've looked at some of them but again, hardly any answers my question of lacking front end Oct 03 11:10:30 psycho_oreos: apt-mirror should be trivial for yum repos, but frankly, why not just rsync? Oct 03 11:10:33 :P Oct 03 11:11:02 sivang, lets say you installed packages from ovi but because you're on limited bandwidth and you screwed up your setup and you have to reinstall.. would you like to download all the apps you have installed from ovi? Oct 03 11:11:08 Stskeeps, there's no rsync available for meego no? Oct 03 11:11:09 :) Oct 03 11:11:18 apart from some wget hack Oct 03 11:11:30 psycho_oreos: sure there is, we mirror to kernel.org too and that has a rsync mirror Oct 03 11:11:34 people use it to import to their OBS'es Oct 03 11:11:42 apt-get install rsync Oct 03 11:11:46 or even grsync Oct 03 11:11:53 I use rsync daily Oct 03 11:12:00 Stskeeps, but why not rsync directly from meego.com's repo? Oct 03 11:12:02 To sync photos and iplayer content Oct 03 11:12:05 <_llll_> does grsync include an rsync binary? Oct 03 11:12:11 Dunno. Oct 03 11:12:16 I suspect it depends on rsync Oct 03 11:12:17 must have it as a dependency Oct 03 11:12:18 psycho_oreos: for the stupid reason repo.meego.com is really really slow Oct 03 11:12:25 (i guess) Oct 03 11:12:40 <_llll_> i would have thought there'd be a common library Oct 03 11:12:42 Stskeeps, ahh and henceforth rsync isn't available interesting Oct 03 11:12:50 <_llll_> rather than depending on rsync, but i never looked Oct 03 11:13:01 psycho_oreos: well, i would rather rsync from kernel.org personally :) Oct 03 11:13:09 psycho_oreos: I use backups, instead, it scares me what could happen from using dpkg-repack Oct 03 11:13:41 Stskeeps, well I wouldn't mind either, but getting it directly from the source is really ideal.. sometimes the mirrors may not be up to date Oct 03 11:14:17 psycho_oreos: :nod: Oct 03 11:14:18 psycho_oreos: the reinstalling onto another machine might be a better use case, but stil... Oct 03 11:14:44 psycho_oreos: i think it's just about to not overload repo.meego.com machine insanely lot atm Oct 03 11:14:50 sivang, backups doesn't store the actual programs, rather it stores the list of programs you have installed previously.. but then that would require you to having to use internet to download and install packages.. which effectively would put strain on the example of limited bandwdith Oct 03 11:15:07 Stskeeps, hmm I see Oct 03 11:15:15 ( 5 minutes to install xchat is not acceptable) Muhaha, tell this to HAM please! Oct 03 11:15:19 psycho_oreos: I backed up *everything* :) Oct 03 11:15:29 psycho_oreos: including disk content Oct 03 11:15:34 sivang, you dd? Oct 03 11:15:44 psycho_oreos: nope, I dar'd Oct 03 11:15:57 DocScrutinizer2, I'm not comparing GUIs, I'm comparing apt to yum Oct 03 11:16:03 sivang, dar'd? or you meant tar'd Oct 03 11:16:31 MohammadAG: then do it in a fair way Oct 03 11:16:35 psycho_oreos: http://dar.linux.free.fr/ Oct 03 11:16:48 DocScrutinizer2, k, less than a minute with apt, more than 5 with rpm Oct 03 11:16:50 MohammadAG: I don't think yum is comparable directly to apt Oct 03 11:17:52 sivang, interesting Oct 03 11:18:21 yum the last I check heavily depends on python Oct 03 11:18:24 why do you think HAM is so much slower than apt, and still it's strongly deprecated to use apt directly for normal installs? Oct 03 11:18:47 HAM is shit Oct 03 11:19:01 HAM is in python? Oct 03 11:19:02 nonsense Oct 03 11:19:08 no, it's in C Oct 03 11:19:10 bad bad C Oct 03 11:19:15 C/GTK? Oct 03 11:19:19 well it has to Oct 03 11:19:21 zypper's in C or C++ Oct 03 11:19:21 I guess Oct 03 11:19:21 :P Oct 03 11:19:34 never tried that Oct 03 11:19:35 Stskeeps: 'or' ? taking the hybrid approach? Oct 03 11:19:41 zypper might even be mono Oct 03 11:19:43 http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=832142#post832142 for portrait mode support in modest Oct 03 11:19:45 Stskeeps: zypper's faster than yum? (yum is python, granted) Oct 03 11:19:49 sivang: yes Oct 03 11:20:32 MohammadAG: Is it a disaster? Oct 03 11:20:37 MohammadAG: dude, why do you never use the mailing lists for announcin things? :) Oct 03 11:20:43 MohammadAG: i.e. "let's rotate the screen, but not do anything to make it usable"? Oct 03 11:20:54 but maybe that's from times where this unbearable red-carpet shit was inside yast/zypper Oct 03 11:20:55 MohammadAG, add the gitorious commit for that please Oct 03 11:21:02 and lets go through the motions once its tested Oct 03 11:21:05 for a merge request Oct 03 11:21:17 lcuk, I have to figure out how to relayout text when it flips into portrait mode Oct 03 11:21:23 Jaffa, it's usable :) Oct 03 11:21:25 nice stuff though Oct 03 11:21:36 Jaffa: that is more or less what happened to MicroB with the portrait mode, you have to swipe the page yourself to make it useable after the turn around. Oct 03 11:21:52 inbox full on tmo, grr Oct 03 11:22:43 meh, I want mhd Oct 03 11:23:42 MohammadAG: lcuk: BTW, do you know how easy it'd be to make the font used by Modest for rendering (and composing) different? i.e. Droid Sans Mono and smaller. Oct 03 11:23:56 * Jaffa figures it *should* be possible in gtkrc, but has forgotten all his gtkrc-fu Oct 03 11:23:58 jaffa Oct 03 11:24:02 thats theme surely? Oct 03 11:24:10 ie make a theme Oct 03 11:24:14 its not down to the app itself? Oct 03 11:24:38 I.E. I want a version that's merging http://mohammadag.xceleo.org/repo/pool/free/h/hildon-desktop/hildon-desktop_2.2.142-1_armel.deb with matan's modified hildon desktop, pretty please! Oct 03 11:24:42 lcuk: I don't want to make all large input areas have a different font and smaller text (well, maybe I do) Oct 03 11:24:44 and changing a default app font would not be wise Oct 03 11:25:17 DocScrutinizer, I thought you were referring to host mode LOL Oct 03 11:25:18 MohammadAG: modest is open-source? Oct 03 11:25:26 jaffa, I am of the impression that big text areas should start with big fonts Oct 03 11:25:26 lcuk: Lots of apps give you a chance to change what font you use, with one of them being "Default" or "System" Oct 03 11:25:29 BCMM: Yeah Oct 03 11:25:36 and font size should reduce as you enter more stuff in Oct 03 11:25:40 BCMM, yes, except for Nokia Messaging Oct 03 11:25:46 lcuk: I don't disagree. However, when composing or viewing an email, I want to be able to see 72 characters on a line Oct 03 11:26:02 *nod* Oct 03 11:26:45 but then again most people couldnt read 72 char lines? Oct 03 11:26:55 thats 11 pixels/char ish Oct 03 11:27:30 lcuk: quite reasonable request. You'll need intitial and minimum fontsize settings for such a textfield Oct 03 11:27:48 MohammadAG: Is that Modest (w/ portrait) the same one in the SSU? Oct 03 11:28:01 the SSU one doesn't have portrait mode Oct 03 11:28:09 lcuk: Anyway, none of the default themes seem to specify it, so it must be coming from somewhere :-/ Oct 03 11:28:10 DocScrutinizer, I did it already in onedotzero and really expected it in more places Oct 03 11:28:12 else, they're the same, with a different version number Oct 03 11:28:17 the dialer etc Oct 03 11:28:26 MohammadAG: ta Oct 03 11:28:26 lcuk: you see such thing on quite every dialer's number input, starting with Nokia 6210 ~y2000 Oct 03 11:28:29 Jaffa, you are right, it mightv been hard written Oct 03 11:28:40 but droid fonts are not part of default install (are they>) Oct 03 11:28:50 nope, they aren't Oct 03 11:29:06 DocScrutinizer, I'll look at mhd when I'm done with my shit for today Oct 03 11:29:12 shouldn't take too long Oct 03 11:29:14 it should pickup the theme font and use it larger/smaller Oct 03 11:29:19 MohammadAG: :-D \o/ Oct 03 11:29:29 i need nourishment Oct 03 11:29:29 Jaffa: dbus-send --print-reply /com/nokia/osso_browser --dest=com.nokia.osso_browser com.nokia.osso_browser.open_new_window 'string:http://www.0xdeadbeef.com/html/monkeys.txt' Oct 03 11:29:47 sp3000: Got it now, ta :-) Oct 03 11:29:47 Jaffa: http://mxr.moego.org/fremantle/source/tablet-browser-interface/tablet-browser-interface.h#26 Oct 03 11:29:48 anyone got any bacon Oct 03 11:29:54 sp3000: Cool, thanks. Oct 03 11:30:20 * Jaffa wonders if it's possible to "name" a tablet-browser window and then reuse it (kinda like "target" in HTML) Oct 03 11:30:26 timeless, mxr.maemo.org search is ** Fatal: Oct 03 11:30:53 Jaffa, probably easier to just use QWebKit Oct 03 11:30:57 timeless: moego/fremantle works but you have to be a bit circumlocutious getting there ;) Oct 03 11:31:15 sp3000: already yelled about it Oct 03 11:31:50 MohammadAG: Yeah, later version then ;-) Oct 03 11:32:09 sp3000: for now you can yank the X from MXR Oct 03 11:32:23 which actually is a PITA Oct 03 11:33:20 sp3000: it's not only the "*** FATAL!" on search, it's also the completely missing hotlinks on all symbols Oct 03 11:33:39 so identifier index too Oct 03 11:33:50 yes Oct 03 11:34:37 foXR is junk and even less useful than a local plain directory structure Oct 03 11:34:43 but yeah you can use the one on moego though I dunno if there's some difference Oct 03 11:34:55 err Oct 03 11:35:06 for now MXR is... Oct 03 11:35:06 just can't go to it from the front page since that puts you over to the mxr.maemo one Oct 03 11:35:25 I hate it when hildon-desktop stops rotating properly and requires a restart Oct 03 11:35:42 what's moego? Oct 03 11:35:44 Jaffa? Oct 03 11:35:55 Your thing broke my browser Oct 03 11:35:58 DocScrutinizer, see link above Oct 03 11:36:08 I kept getting windows opened to that stupid page Oct 03 11:36:11 timeless_pidgin: "Broke your browser"? Oct 03 11:36:31 Instead of getting pages i wanted to load from bookmarks - even after the browser crashed Oct 03 11:36:58 * sp3000 calls it erosion due to overbrowsing Oct 03 11:37:15 timeless_pidgin: All it does is use the DBus API (open_new_window in 0.0.3); how could it have that effect/ Oct 03 11:37:20 thanks for that link Oct 03 11:37:57 MohammadAG: Here? Oct 03 11:38:05 moego sound like a genuine jeff moe aka jebba project :-D Oct 03 11:40:31 Tiagotiago : speaker limits are done in software and there are iirc cases where people bipassed the limits via direct alsa(?) Pipes which damaged them... Oct 03 11:41:52 * DocScrutinizer moos at timeless_pidgin Oct 03 11:42:26 lcuk: Modest already seems to override the theme: http://mxr.moego.org/fremantle/source/modest/src/maemo/modest-msg-edit-window.c#76 ;-p Oct 03 11:42:40 It's depressing there is the unused hardware filtrer. Oct 03 11:43:35 * DocScrutinizer is pondering to have a redirect from mxr.maemo.org to mxr.moego.org in his etc/hosts - just to put the 30..40 scrcode pages for hostmode back to purpose Oct 03 11:44:01 SpeedEvil: ?? Oct 03 11:44:23 SpeedEvil: audio? mnz is working on that Oct 03 11:45:16 * timeless_pidgin kicks pidgin for randomly launching browser windows Oct 03 11:46:15 yes, I know. Oct 03 11:46:19 downloading a *source* package shouldnt get me the binary for a package, surely? Oct 03 11:46:21 Jaffa, heh, but at least it still uses a font thats on device Oct 03 11:46:28 ie http://repository.maemo.org/extras-devel/pool/fremantle/free/source/h/here-and-now/here-and-now_0.0.2.tar.gz Oct 03 11:46:31 so try patching the font size down a bit Oct 03 11:46:34 to your liking? Oct 03 11:46:53 frals, it doesnt Oct 03 11:47:03 it gave me the source Oct 03 11:47:13 what did it give you? Oct 03 11:47:16 lcuk: do you see any code in there? Oct 03 11:47:18 frals: The source is a Makefile and a shell script Oct 03 11:47:30 bah Oct 03 11:47:33 * frals curses windows Oct 03 11:47:40 yeah, my bad :) Oct 03 11:47:52 * timeless_pidgin curses someone for supporting launching url / windows in the browser Oct 03 11:47:56 Awful feature Oct 03 11:48:04 Bloody annoying Oct 03 11:48:22 MohammadAG: Does it also fix the "Leave messages on server" bug? Oct 03 11:48:23 * timeless_pidgin kicks the maemo 5 window manager for being braindead Oct 03 11:48:25 frals: I could've named it here-and-now.sh in the source ;-) Oct 03 11:48:34 Jaffa: yeah ;) Oct 03 11:49:20 frals: 0.0.3 has justbeen imported into te -devel repository and includes some changes requested by timeless_pidgin Oct 03 11:50:22 frals, there isnt any code Oct 03 11:50:25 its a dbus script Oct 03 11:50:31 silly wrapper around webapp Oct 03 11:51:01 Nice perjorative :-p Oct 03 11:51:02 timeless_pidgin: MXR on garage isn't a simple project I guess? Oct 03 11:51:36 timeless_pidgin: (window manager) what WM?? Oct 03 11:51:38 * timeless_pidgin kicks pidgin Oct 03 11:53:51 * sp3000 calls the software abuse hotline Oct 03 11:54:13 ~trout sp3000 Oct 03 11:54:13 * infobot slaps sp3000 around a bit with a large trout! Oct 03 11:55:18 Jaffa, can yo umake a webapp that opens maemo.org too? Oct 03 11:55:21 you ^ Oct 03 11:57:12 * timeless_pidgin kicks pidgin Oct 03 11:57:23 Should i be kicking gtkhtml? Oct 03 11:57:35 * DocScrutinizer pipes timeless_pidgin | uniq Oct 03 11:59:09 Sp3000: someone hinted at a problem earlier Oct 03 11:59:27 I'm flying home this afternoon, i'll deal w/ it tomorrow Oct 03 12:00:27 Jaffa : dunno (just got to your question ) Oct 03 12:00:50 Docscrutinizer : moego is Oct 03 12:01:14 Docscrutinizer : meeow Oct 03 12:01:24 timeless_pidgin: is... ? Oct 03 12:01:52 ... a jeff moe project? a garage based project? Oct 03 12:02:18 Docscrutinizer : garage is two collections of N vcs checkouts Oct 03 12:02:37 Docscrutinizer : maemo 5 has one, it's hildon-desktop iirc Oct 03 12:02:54 timeless_pidgin: I'd like to have mxr for h-e-n.maemo.org Oct 03 12:02:57 hildon desktop sits ontop of matchbox wm Oct 03 12:03:37 (WM) j/k Oct 03 12:03:59 or "what? you call THIS a WM?" Oct 03 12:04:25 then whats a better one Oct 03 12:05:09 mhd (sorry never was meant to start a serious discussion) Oct 03 12:05:48 and yes I'm aware mhd is a desktop, not a WM Oct 03 12:06:09 Sorry, on train. O2 doesn't service tunnels Oct 03 12:06:45 so pidgin for sure isn't the IRC client of choice for you, timeless_pidgin1 Oct 03 12:08:03 lo room Oct 03 12:08:52 i got 2 questions, after a root password is set after installing opensshd server, how can the root access be restored to default settings after uninstall Oct 03 12:09:21 man passwd Oct 03 12:09:28 DocScrutinizer yeah, that i know Oct 03 12:09:44 but does the n900 even ship with a root password? Oct 03 12:09:52 Docscrutinizer : heh Oct 03 12:09:54 not by default Oct 03 12:10:04 Ok, lemme go shopping Oct 03 12:10:10 ok, DocScrutinizer so i can just set it to a blank password again correct Oct 03 12:10:22 also, i have a problem with my wifi, not sure if this is a bug, but after an "easysetup" failed, it's now impossible to get it to attempt to connect to the accespoint again Oct 03 12:10:26 to invalid aka locked pw, yes Oct 03 12:10:46 exactly, i'd rather have it locked :) Oct 03 12:10:58 it is, by default Oct 03 12:11:08 root access is via sudoers Oct 03 12:11:25 yeah so passwd -l root should fix the issue correct? Oct 03 12:11:27 with NOPASSWD, which I consider a really bad thing Oct 03 12:11:35 yes Oct 03 12:11:47 agreed that no pass isn't a smart thing to do Oct 03 12:11:53 ubuntu has spread this whole sudo faggotry Oct 03 12:11:55 * lindi- disagrees :) Oct 03 12:12:07 famicom: http://wiki.maemo.org/User:Joerg_rw/tools Oct 03 12:12:49 lindi-: you're free to elaborate Oct 03 12:13:04 DocScrutinizer thanks man Oct 03 12:13:07 just what i needed :) Oct 03 12:13:10 thanks a million Oct 03 12:13:11 sudo predates ubuntu Oct 03 12:13:17 * timeless_pidgin1 kicks marius Oct 03 12:13:18 famicom: yw Oct 03 12:13:22 i know, but ubuntu abused the fuck out of it :) Oct 03 12:13:28 and made it the defacto standard Oct 03 12:13:39 famicom: ack Oct 03 12:14:04 famicom: if I get access to your account it is trivial to alias "sudo" to log your password. having a password for sudo is only useful for preventing mistakes and has only mild security benefit Oct 03 12:14:23 exactly Oct 03 12:14:36 the idiocy to allow * for user with user password or even NOPASSWD is clearly a buntkuh BS Oct 03 12:15:04 lindi-: nonsense Oct 03 12:15:08 eh, reminds me of "Lindows" Oct 03 12:15:38 Why isn't apt-worker run w/ a nice +5 or something? Oct 03 12:15:39 It kills my device... Oct 03 12:15:40 Xchat critique Oct 03 12:15:40 Xc1. Tabs are stupid Oct 03 12:15:40 Xc2. Network list doesn't do typing to filter Oct 03 12:15:40 Xc3. There doesn't seem to be a maemo menu Oct 03 12:15:51 each first level sophistication attack will try to get root access directly, without urging user to enter a password to sudo Oct 03 12:15:52 famicom: having a password for sudo just gives most people false sense of security in most usage patterns Oct 03 12:16:00 exactly Oct 03 12:16:42 so people will start thinking it's "acceptable" to write applications without putting proper thought into security/permissions Oct 03 12:17:02 "because the user can just sudo" Oct 03 12:17:05 Xc4. Using +/- would be better than "add" and "remove" which have random lame widths, especially localized Oct 03 12:17:15 lindi-: fact is with flash vulnerability plus brainfsckd sudoers setup on maemo, the device is open like a win-NT machine Oct 03 12:17:15 which doesn't work too fucking well in a server/enterprise environment Oct 03 12:17:37 famicom: ok, password-less sudo does promote the use for sudo from third party applications. there a password would have a benefit since it would discourage should tactics Oct 03 12:17:52 MohammadAG: Does your new modest package also fix the "Leave messages on server" bug? Oct 03 12:17:55 DocScrutinizer: yes Oct 03 12:17:55 hmm, i cba to read the backscroll but i saw a notified word so... Oct 03 12:17:56 Xc5. "Auto connect" should either be one word or hyphenated. Otherwise you'd write "automatically" ... Oct 03 12:17:57 BACON!!! Oct 03 12:18:26 yeah, it was lcuk asking for some Oct 03 12:18:28 lindi- unless we teach those ubuntards and whatnot that root is a priviledge, not a right, we'll end up with a UAC nightmare like vista Oct 03 12:18:43 AKA: click yes for, wooohooo spinning cubes Oct 03 12:18:59 tobis87, not sure, never experienced the bug with nokia messaging Oct 03 12:19:01 Xc6. Dialog titles are titles (not list headings) and shouldn't end in ":" (Character set:) Oct 03 12:19:04 tobis87, you're free to test it Oct 03 12:19:08 famicom: I have not used UAC myself but the concept of trusted path is something we should be learnings from Oct 03 12:19:15 * MohammadAG added portrait mode support to control panel Oct 03 12:19:27 lindi- what is your favorite OS Oct 03 12:19:31 famicom: debian Oct 03 12:19:37 :) Oct 03 12:19:44 debian! woot! Oct 03 12:19:59 * famicom remembers the good ole days, when sudo was a dirty word Oct 03 12:20:02 Xc7. The scrollbar width seems somewhat random Oct 03 12:20:33 MohammadAG: control panel is open source? Oct 03 12:20:38 yes Oct 03 12:20:44 Debian FreeBSD, Debian Solaris, Debian Hurd, or something else? Oct 03 12:20:45 hildon-control-panel Oct 03 12:20:46 MohammadAG: nice Oct 03 12:20:48 famicom: currently improving the security is difficult. you need to switch to another virtual console and login as root to do adminstrative work Oct 03 12:21:04 I want the source of the contacts app :( Oct 03 12:21:09 famicom: but that is not very usable :( Oct 03 12:21:11 MohammadAG: right.... Oct 03 12:21:13 it works in portrait mode Oct 03 12:21:30 debian isn't an operating system... Oct 03 12:21:31 lindi- i'd rather have something that's hard to use Oct 03 12:21:35 yeah yeah yeah Oct 03 12:21:39 famicom: hmm? Oct 03 12:21:47 GNU/Linux + various other tools Oct 03 12:21:58 famicom yeah, something hard to use, but knowing that my data is secure Oct 03 12:22:02 hmm Oct 03 12:22:03 i use this phone for work Oct 03 12:22:10 just rechecked the source for hildon-control-panel Oct 03 12:22:18 it has portrait mode already in it, but commented out Oct 03 12:22:25 /* Turn on portrait mode support flag */ Oct 03 12:22:25 /* TODO FIXME XXX Turn on this flag when applets ready... */ Oct 03 12:22:26 MohammadAG: you mean it adjusts to protrait mode nicely as opposed to the other apps? Oct 03 12:22:51 sivang, yes, use CTRL+SHIFT+R Oct 03 12:22:53 Xc8. "1 ops, 45/" is useless as titles for userlists go Oct 03 12:22:54 it just needs a flag Oct 03 12:22:55 xc9. that one can "focus" the userlist, but not type to filter it is lame. Oct 03 12:23:17 Anyone got an idea how the touchscreen events are represented and how to make x11vnc convert the desktop mouse into them? Oct 03 12:23:28 xc10. the channel menu isn't maemo5 friendly, it's maemo4 :( Oct 03 12:23:45 famicom: my goal is to get something that is easy to use but safer than plain sudo :) Oct 03 12:23:47 timeless_xchat: what are you reading from ? :) Oct 03 12:23:57 ? Oct 03 12:23:58 lindi- hummm, i dont know Oct 03 12:24:03 MohammadAG: Will do it, do you mind to take a look into mece's changes to the hildon filemanager? http://pastebin.com/R77d7yJQ , it does reboot the n900 if a folder is opened with many files while the cpu is on high load. Oct 03 12:24:08 i'm writing a bug list for xchat Oct 03 12:24:11 all these "mainstream" adoptions of linux have ben pisspoor Oct 03 12:24:17 famicom: http://lindi.iki.fi/lindi/darcs/sido/README is one of the prototypes Oct 03 12:24:29 timeless_xchat: ah Oct 03 12:24:37 MohammadAG: this key combo does nothing for me. Oct 03 12:24:37 yacc: if you want to control n900 with desktop kbd/mouse try 'synergy' Oct 03 12:24:43 timeless_xchat: my largest problem with xchat was that it doesn't work well when I'm on 70+ channels Oct 03 12:24:44 eeePC, HP 2133, Maemo Oct 03 12:24:46 they all sucked Oct 03 12:24:48 synergy? Oct 03 12:24:50 xc11. the lack of default tap to scroll is mostly annoying Oct 03 12:25:05 timeless_xchat: I never notice when somebody mentions my nick since the channel list does not fit to screen.. Oct 03 12:25:11 Hi Oct 03 12:25:27 xc12. the default theme of "my text" as dark gray on black background is *stupid* Oct 03 12:25:31 sivang, close the keyboard and rotate the phone Oct 03 12:25:48 ctrl+shift+r sets portrait mode flag to the top level window Oct 03 12:26:05 pupnik_, well what's the benefit over x11vnc? (I also like to have the screen in a window so the N900 can be connected to the PC under the desk and hidden from view), ... Oct 03 12:26:09 MohammadAG: ah okay, let me check this on the control panel Oct 03 12:26:19 lindi: i wouldn't bother w/ more than a couple, my battery would die Oct 03 12:26:30 timeless_xchat: heh Oct 03 12:26:35 timeless_xchat: most of them are pretty idle Oct 03 12:26:36 MohammadAG: ohhh rad Oct 03 12:26:46 MohammadAG: cool, now modest is also in protratin mode without any patch Oct 03 12:26:48 sivang, do it in the contacts app Oct 03 12:27:06 xc13. "time stamps" shouldn't be two words... Oct 03 12:27:07 sivang, yes, it gets cleared when you close the app, so not really useful Oct 03 12:27:08 yacc: the n900 becomes a little computer next to your real monitor - keep tabs on network activity or chat, or test software on n900 Oct 03 12:27:23 MohammadAG: well, can't we make it always set? Oct 03 12:27:26 no Oct 03 12:27:29 MohammadAG: surely this is a mere gconf nuence Oct 03 12:27:33 unless you patch the app Oct 03 12:27:37 no, it's a window flag Oct 03 12:27:42 MohammadAG: X11 ? Oct 03 12:27:46 no Oct 03 12:27:48 hildon-desktop Oct 03 12:27:53 xc14. tabs really don't work when you have dozens of them with no title padding (preferences !!) Oct 03 12:27:59 MohammadAG: not read from gconf or some env var? Oct 03 12:28:08 ... Oct 03 12:28:13 MohammadAG: what's the code to respond to ctrl shift r does? Oct 03 12:28:21 Anyway, I'm off for the match Borussia Dortmund vs Bayern Munich. And of course Dortmund will win! :-D Oct 03 12:28:23 MohammadAG: e.g. the slot/callback Oct 03 12:28:34 not sure, check hildon-desktop's code Oct 03 12:28:41 xc15. the alerts panel scrolls *sideways* Oct 03 12:28:44 * sivang pokes Oct 03 12:29:08 MohammadAG: also, we need to add a redraw callback to the tilt signal Oct 03 12:29:11 xc16. "nick names" isn't two words!! Oct 03 12:29:25 MohammadAG: to make app redraw in the new screen setting Oct 03 12:29:33 timeless_xchat: hehe, btw, I never said loose again Oct 03 12:29:39 timeless_xchat: or alot for that matter Oct 03 12:30:10 http://hyperboleandahalf.blogspot.com/2010/04/alot-is-better-than-you-at-everything.html Oct 03 12:30:13 FWIW Oct 03 12:30:19 xc17. they aren't consistent about timestamps fwiw (the logging preferences tab uses both !!) Oct 03 12:31:37 ok, how the *heck* do i get non lame colors in xchat? Oct 03 12:32:01 i'm switching back in 5 minutes unless someone can fix my dark gray on black :( Oct 03 12:32:05 timeless_xchat: why use xchat? Oct 03 12:32:40 timeless_xchat: xc17: channel tabs need aliases, and a way to sort Oct 03 12:32:55 xc18. the context menu placement for usernames in the channel area is bad. Oct 03 12:33:08 timeless_xchat: xc18: WTF there is no python plugin? Oct 03 12:33:45 sivang : docscrutinizer told me not to use pidgin Oct 03 12:33:47 No synergy package for the N900 :( Oct 03 12:33:56 :-D Oct 03 12:34:04 timeless_xchat: heh Oct 03 12:34:05 * timeless_xchat kicks docscrutinizer Oct 03 12:34:14 yacc: yeah, that bothered me too Oct 03 12:34:50 xc19. scroll buttons in menus are awful Oct 03 12:34:51 timeless_xchat: lemme push my xchat.conf for you X-P Oct 03 12:35:08 for the grammatically concious, I strongly recommend that ALOT post Oct 03 12:35:27 anybody knows to explain why MMS is caled WAP Push? Oct 03 12:35:37 err, not called, but that is the explenation I got somehwere on the web Oct 03 12:35:37 docscrutinizer : if it doesn't suck... Oct 03 12:35:58 timeless_xchat: sure it sucks, that's why I use it X-D Oct 03 12:36:02 Well, MMS is a real heap of very aromatic dung, ... Oct 03 12:36:24 I wonder does Maemo manage to keep multiple outbound network connections going at the same time? Oct 03 12:36:39 ? Oct 03 12:36:41 yacc: and you said that since it requires it's own dedicated channel? :) Oct 03 12:36:48 maemo tries to avoid multiple networks Oct 03 12:36:55 If not, then you'll have problems to implement MMS support in a generic way. Oct 03 12:37:13 you can have gprs + adhoc Oct 03 12:37:19 sivang, well, sometimes, depends upon the network, but yes many networks have MMS on it's own APN. Oct 03 12:37:24 and you can have whatever + vpn Oct 03 12:37:27 timeless_xchat: btw, I created a bug report about tapping the gmail inbox in MicroB I apologize in advance if it is not MicroB's fault :) Oct 03 12:37:48 sivang, worse even without a special APN, you might need to access the network through GPRS instead of the WLAN to access internal IPs of the servers involved. Oct 03 12:37:53 sivang : doesn't bother me right now :) Oct 03 12:38:10 mms should just die Oct 03 12:38:23 docscrutinizer : where's that conf already? Oct 03 12:38:28 timeless_xchat: yeah, I know :) feel free to toss it back to me for furhter investigation who's fault is it when you see it, I am testing ukeyboard in that regard Oct 03 12:38:30 sivang, but more generally, the big problem is that it's just another copy&modify&define-standard item that the mobile world has been pushing, ... Oct 03 12:38:49 timeless_xchat: ~user/.xchat2/* Oct 03 12:39:02 sivang, just like mobiles have supported for years their own IM chat protocols (Global Village or how was it called currently), ... Oct 03 12:39:10 yacc: I read the same place and they said it is WAP Push, using SMS and WAP to accomplish its goal Oct 03 12:39:27 yacc: never heard of it, which mobiles were those? Oct 03 12:39:37 yacc: WAP Push confused me Oct 03 12:39:48 sivang, that stupid thing looks so much like xmpp, but slightly modified and binary to make it incompatible with xmpp. Oct 03 12:39:51 um... ok? Oct 03 12:39:52 where's *your* file, the one you're giving me, the one that will make things suck less Oct 03 12:40:10 sivang, well, most Nokia phones had it as "Chat", "IM Chat", and so on. Oct 03 12:40:56 SMS is nothing other than a standard non-standard IM protocol :P Oct 03 12:42:01 it is amazing what you can learn and get curious by inspecting the source of an app Oct 03 12:42:13 sivang: http://www.mobjab.com/ Oct 03 12:42:21 sigh Oct 03 12:42:21 .oO(fMMS) Oct 03 12:42:30 osso-backup is closed source Oct 03 12:42:39 why the fuck do they use osso in the name if it's closed Oct 03 12:42:53 mohammadag: it isn't interesting Oct 03 12:42:56 IMPS is the current name for that xmpp clone, ... Oct 03 12:43:16 it basically gets things wrong, like dereferencing symlinks Oct 03 12:43:22 MohammadAG: there's a bunch of free software laying around that accomplish the same Oct 03 12:43:30 it reads a directory /etc/osso-backup/ (?) Oct 03 12:43:38 Anyway, I take it that Maemo does not support having multiple outgoing data connections at the same time? Oct 03 12:43:42 which more or less controls its behavior Oct 03 12:43:43 yacc: yes, but I am more keen to learn how MMS works and what is it really consisted of Oct 03 12:43:45 I don't care, it's called osso-* it should be open Oct 03 12:43:49 you could write a better one Oct 03 12:43:53 sivang, what for? Oct 03 12:43:59 timeless_xchat: and takes all the dot files fro you "home" Oct 03 12:44:05 heck, i'll gladly help you Oct 03 12:44:24 timeless_xchat: in C++/Qt ? :-) Oct 03 12:44:37 sivang? Oct 03 12:44:46 sivang, MMS is really a sick thing, expensive, and way inferior to simple email, and nowadays even stupid phones start to support standard email protocols. Oct 03 12:44:54 mohammadag, the problem was that nokia renamed the organization "osso" Oct 03 12:45:04 they couldn't call things "nokia" Oct 03 12:45:12 they had to use their organization name Oct 03 12:45:18 timeless_xchat: what did osso stood for? Oct 03 12:45:28 timeless_xchat: writing a new backup app.... Oct 03 12:45:45 yacc: so you say it is deprecated? Oct 03 12:45:47 is it safe to do an apt-get upgrade on the n900 Oct 03 12:45:52 and while the engineers (and typically local managers) wanted and expected to open source things Oct 03 12:45:53 something got stuck beyond them preventing it Oct 03 12:46:04 open source software opportunity - or thereabouts Oct 03 12:46:09 yacc: some people find it easier to send something to a phone number they have of someone rather then his email, and making him see it shortly after Oct 03 12:46:10 famicom: yep. not dist-upgrade though. Oct 03 12:46:14 timeless_xchat: no, the problem was that "osso" should have BSDL everything as policy Oct 03 12:46:30 sivang : i don't care. html + web server would be fine Oct 03 12:46:41 yacc: for example, if you're in Budapest and want to send images of shoes you want to buy for your friend Oct 03 12:46:53 luke: policies are made to be broken Oct 03 12:47:00 yacc: you don't want to deal with network connection, and the store's WIFI is protected and you don Oct 03 12:47:06 sivang, yeah, depends upon your plan, but while it may be easier, most people do not appreciate the say 0,40EUR that sending a MMS would cost me. Oct 03 12:47:13 yacc: have time to use aircrack-ng ;) Oct 03 12:47:26 yacc: yes it is very exapansive Oct 03 12:47:29 sivang, data roaming is cheaper than MMS roaming. Oct 03 12:47:38 free mms \o/ Oct 03 12:47:59 frals: ? :) Oct 03 12:48:09 maybe for the sender ;) Oct 03 12:48:18 sivang: deal with network connection? more likely to get normal data working than MMS data Oct 03 12:48:32 uh, you have to pay to receive messages? what kind of third world country do you live in? ;) Oct 03 12:49:16 frals, for MMS if you receive them in roaming you usually have to pay the roaming, ... Oct 03 12:49:25 frals: isn't it clear already? :-p Oct 03 12:49:36 yeah, true, roaming prices are silly Oct 03 12:49:38 Because MMS is just a data connection to an internal server of your operator to retrieve the image. Oct 03 12:49:51 * timeless_xchat kicks ham Oct 03 12:50:13 system modal alerts hidden in other application windows. great Oct 03 12:50:41 I was charged around 5$ for 1 minute call from Vienna Oct 03 12:50:44 for reference Oct 03 12:51:15 * luke-jr_ wonders if T-Mobile Europe plans work in USA Oct 03 12:51:16 and data rates are higher in-country and ofcourse out-country Oct 03 12:51:31 hence why I'd love to use MMS, or make fMMS work :) Oct 03 12:51:37 sivang: of course? Oct 03 12:51:40 fMMS works ;p Oct 03 12:51:50 luke: you won't like the roaming fee Oct 03 12:51:56 frals: reading the source, I realized I should ask my carrier for the MMS APN id/password etc ;) Oct 03 12:52:04 timeless_xchat: roaming on your own provider? Oct 03 12:52:08 heck, roaming on o2 from uk to .ie sucks iirc Oct 03 12:52:12 luke: sure Oct 03 12:52:15 sivang: that should be obviosu from the configuration dialog, but each to his own ;) Oct 03 12:52:20 wtf Oct 03 12:52:44 frals: there was none! at least in the previouse version, let me check again. /me reds Oct 03 12:53:21 sivang: has been since 0.3 or something iirc ;) Oct 03 12:53:27 what? HAM does not support speed search?? Oct 03 12:53:37 frals: oh, I guess my setup was borked Oct 03 12:53:44 if it isn't your provider, the pair might not have a roaming agreement at all == no service Oct 03 12:53:56 frals: I spend some time trying to understand how to work it out and did not see a setup window, I'm now on 1.2 so maybe that'll be better Oct 03 12:53:57 over bere, Cricket has a plan including like 1000 roaming minutes with other providers :P Oct 03 12:54:11 MohammadAG: one can not make calls when using jaunty on the n900 right? Oct 03 12:54:11 timeless_xchat: 'pair' ? Oct 03 12:54:17 MohammadAG: that would be awesome Oct 03 12:54:17 if it is your provider, at least you shouldn't have to worry about that Oct 03 12:54:30 and a cell company would not stay in business if they charged roaming on their own network Oct 03 12:54:42 frals: /me curious, how did you find all this details about gconf settings and dbus calls needed to work this out? it is a nice source to learn from Oct 03 12:54:50 there was a time when people in e.g. Silver Spring, MD were roaming (on their network) when they went 5mins south into Washington, D.C. Oct 03 12:55:06 frals: the MMSs are sent using a dbus call as well right? (from the cont. class) Oct 03 12:55:19 timeless_xchat: hehe Oct 03 12:55:27 maybe there's a reason USA plans are so expensive Oct 03 12:55:32 if Europe Oct 03 12:55:33 wappushd interaction i got from nokia, rest was pretty much digging around :p Oct 03 12:55:43 if Europe's cheaper plans are piled up with insane roaming fees Oct 03 12:55:48 these days, most people at least in the dc metro area have a plan which doesn't count that as roaming Oct 03 12:55:50 but i'm not sure what portion of people actually have nationwide roaming Oct 03 12:55:53 can anyone let me know if there is a tv remote software for the n900 ? Oct 03 12:56:00 frals: wappushd is open source? Oct 03 12:56:05 sivang: no Oct 03 12:56:07 frals: or was discussed on FN ? Oct 03 12:56:18 sivang: its in the sdk now Oct 03 12:56:19 luke: you have heard my roaming bills for w/in Europe, right? Oct 03 12:56:26 timeless_xchat: I can't imagine any nationwide cell company in the US can stay in business while considering it roaming Oct 03 12:56:34 timeless_xchat: no Oct 03 12:56:35 frals: but it's enough to use it, you don't really need the source? Oct 03 12:56:46 sivang: only need the headers since the dbus api is there Oct 03 12:56:47 1k/2k EUR in single months Oct 03 12:56:57 frals: nice, cool Oct 03 12:57:06 sivang: no clue whats on FN as i dont think ive ever used it for maemo5-stuff Oct 03 12:57:28 i also managed a 3k EUR bill for one month, but that involed ukraine which isn't .eu Oct 03 12:57:59 o_O Oct 03 12:58:09 (oh, and roaming with two phones using data on both concurrently definitely helps if you want high bills...) Oct 03 12:58:10 timeless_xchat: where you actually roaming, or just travelling on the same network? Oct 03 12:58:29 frals: why is SMS referred to as wappush in some web resources? what's the connection? Oct 03 12:58:35 elisa doesn't really have coverage outside nordic countries Oct 03 12:58:37 frals: and hence MMS is said to use it Oct 03 12:58:47 timeless_xchat: but what a name for a provider ;) Oct 03 12:58:47 but the eu is supposedly "regulated" Oct 03 12:59:17 here it is 'partner communications' that carry orange Oct 03 12:59:21 or market the orange brand Oct 03 12:59:26 which means that roaming fees for non data are capped (everyone bills at the cap - duh, why compete?) Oct 03 12:59:58 the eu solution to large bills was to ask networks to automatically disable service when the bill goes too high Oct 03 13:00:01 sivang: wap push is a 'special' sms usually Oct 03 13:00:16 because obviously you'd rather not have service while roaming... Oct 03 13:00:27 frals: interesting, does it carry wap packets using sms or control channel transport? Oct 03 13:00:30 that is why you took your phone with you, right? Oct 03 13:00:45 shiny toy to amuse the 3 year olds? Oct 03 13:01:05 timeless_xchat: paying for incoming calls from your original carrier while you're roaming is also normal? Oct 03 13:01:17 not sure Oct 03 13:01:22 sivang: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wireless_Application_Protocol#WAP_Push Oct 03 13:01:36 frals: I also pay for that, same as I would have initiated the call almost. Oct 03 13:01:38 :p Oct 03 13:01:57 timeless_xchat: 3 year olds aren't amused by phones Oct 03 13:02:08 it required approval to see my bill in detail Oct 03 13:02:08 so i didn't look Oct 03 13:02:08 ask sp3000 Oct 03 13:02:14 frals: wikipedia is good enough as a resource? many say it is highly inaccurate :-p Oct 03 13:02:36 reading the standard , was intriguing, but made me fall asleep. Oct 03 13:02:36 luke: well, then you have a not so useful brick, don't you? Oct 03 13:02:55 sivang: that + the rfc was good enough for me going from 0 knowledge to getting a working-ish implementation so ;) Oct 03 13:02:55 luke-jr_: install angry birds Oct 03 13:02:55 timeless_xchat: presumably there might be a 1 year old around… Oct 03 13:03:13 frals: cool, 'll start with Vikipedia and go to the RFC Oct 03 13:03:15 sivang: I think Nokia wanted to force me to register for something to get that Oct 03 13:03:16 uh s/rfc/spec/ Oct 03 13:03:30 younsters adore mobile phones Oct 03 13:03:34 frals: thanks! liked your KISS python in the sources Oct 03 13:03:38 its a shame they arent quite waterproof though Oct 03 13:03:54 :) Oct 03 13:04:00 lcuk: Depends, is there any local information you need to get to open maemo.org? Not sure there is... Oct 03 13:04:36 Jaffa, it was half in jest - but technically I wonder why the info cannot be gotten directly from browser Oct 03 13:04:42 sivang : that's what they're there for Oct 03 13:04:43 bedtime reading (for the insomniacs) Oct 03 13:04:43 lcuk: indeed Oct 03 13:04:47 bounce works well for children of many ages Oct 03 13:04:55 isnt location a browser feature nowadays Oct 03 13:05:24 lcuk : what about location? Oct 03 13:05:35 we don't expose cell tower info to content Oct 03 13:05:39 well the webapp jaffa wrapped for the nokia service Oct 03 13:05:54 ahh Oct 03 13:05:58 we take that info and convert it into a location/precision Oct 03 13:06:01 but gps is available? Oct 03 13:06:12 the browser exposes the result Oct 03 13:06:18 reasonable Oct 03 13:06:22 either from gps or towers or wifi macs Oct 03 13:06:29 so the underlying method isnt important Oct 03 13:06:35 depends on what nokia was doing Oct 03 13:06:45 right Oct 03 13:06:46 * lcuk appreciates that api abstraction Oct 03 13:07:05 luke-jr_: the MMS spec? Oct 03 13:07:13 sivang, dig dig dig Oct 03 13:07:26 lcuk: ? Oct 03 13:07:28 sadly we don't support "user entered info" Oct 03 13:07:29 as a method Oct 03 13:07:29 * timeless_xchat kicks dougt Oct 03 13:07:29 * timeless_xchat kicks dougt Oct 03 13:07:29 * timeless_xchat kicks dougt Oct 03 13:07:30 nothing prevents it, but it isn't included Oct 03 13:07:31 which sucks Oct 03 13:07:39 it took a lot of effort for frals to roundup and boil the available info into fmms Oct 03 13:07:45 making fmms the uber spec at the moment :P Oct 03 13:08:09 fwiw fmms conciders the spec more like guidelines then anything else ;) Oct 03 13:08:19 luke-jr_: you had to register to get the spec? Oct 03 13:08:25 sivang, if you ask frals nicely, he will do a poetic recital of the spec for you :D Oct 03 13:08:32 in welsh Oct 03 13:08:37 lcuk: I won't dare to ask him this :) Oct 03 13:08:49 hehe Oct 03 13:09:11 lcuk: I have a Welsh friend from Collabora, I barely understood his tongue. Oct 03 13:09:16 timeless_xchat, most people dont need it Oct 03 13:09:20 lcuk: Location isn't a browser feature on Here and Now :-p Oct 03 13:09:23 s/then/than/ Oct 03 13:09:24 (comparison, not conclusion ) Oct 03 13:09:30 * lcuk has a Welsh colleague from Collabora Oct 03 13:09:41 lcuk: daf perhaps? Oct 03 13:09:46 Jaffa, but it could be a coverpage Oct 03 13:09:49 giving the link Oct 03 13:10:25 lcuk: Theoretically, yes, I guess so. Oct 03 13:10:29 sivang: mms spec etc is all on oma so shouldnt have to register but was a bit hard to find the dl link at times :p Oct 03 13:10:41 jaffa so it could be done directly with a bookmark Oct 03 13:10:46 lcuk: I'm not sure why that'd be any benefit (especially since the service I'm giving access to is cid & mncc based) Oct 03 13:10:58 could someone please tell rama kurvakat that Qt isn't spelled with a capital t? Oct 03 13:10:59 lcuk : most people are stationary and don't need anything Oct 03 13:10:59 if you're traveling *to* a place and want info in advance Oct 03 13:10:59 then being able to act like you're there is important Oct 03 13:11:00 lcuk: Not with H&N, because it handles the geocoding. Oct 03 13:12:00 timeless_xchat, very wise Oct 03 13:12:10 and thats more likely Oct 03 13:12:25 so its not "Here & now" and "There & future" Oct 03 13:12:43 lcuk: there & then? Oct 03 13:13:33 [Sun Oct 03 00:45:12 2010] [error] [client 117.254.146.50] /home/timeless/bin/glimpse: relocation error: /home/timeless/bin/glimpse: symbol errno, version GLIBC_2.0 not defined in file libc.so.6 with link time reference, referer: http://wiki.maemo.org/N900_Hardware_USB Oct 03 13:13:43 if you set your clock wrong and connect to here and now, does it show old info? Oct 03 13:13:50 timeless_xchat: are you chatting from the N900 by any chance? Oct 03 13:13:54 sp3000 : glimpse needs a rebuild Oct 03 13:14:31 uhuh Oct 03 13:14:44 no other computers on this trip... Oct 03 13:15:09 * DocScrutinizer *curses* Nokia cellmo/isi closed aproach to celltower/neighbour-cells/TA info Oct 03 13:15:37 isn't that info in ISI spec? Oct 03 13:16:04 how to install sdl in scratch box?? Oct 03 13:16:05 another instance where Nokia basically said "yes, we *could* disclose this info to user, but we won't :-P" Oct 03 13:16:23 for N900 Oct 03 13:17:32 or, more precisely, they said "e're looking into it" and then never picked up again on the topic Oct 03 13:23:37 doesn't agps api handle TA values to get better positioning when no satellites are available? Oct 03 13:24:40 tzz, prolly nobody outside Nokia knows Oct 03 13:25:06 as if they had some patent on TA Oct 03 13:26:25 actually they have NO patent (at least not legally): http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/openmoko-kernel/2008-June/002987.html Oct 03 13:26:36 Arkenoi: can it be better than GPS or just used as a fallback? Oct 03 13:27:10 sivang: fallback, as it is unlikely to be precise enough, TA step is 150m or something Oct 03 13:27:18 sivang: read ^^that post. Indoors it clearly can be way superior Oct 03 13:27:35 Arkenoi: as well ^^ Oct 03 13:30:04 iirc it was easy to get full "netmon"-style info in symbian Oct 03 13:30:41 sivang: Quicker too Oct 03 13:30:56 there's netmon for N900, but it doesn't provide anything beyond mere basics Oct 03 13:31:07 Moo, Arkenoi, Doc Oct 03 13:31:13 are there any client on the wild for that? Oct 03 13:31:14 and likes to segfault :-P Oct 03 13:31:47 is there any app for n900 that kind'a acts like a file browser but over bluetooth? Oct 03 13:31:53 DocScrutinizer: yes, I reading this but it is a bit too GSM lowlever technical for me without more reading :) Oct 03 13:31:59 drBig: Not in Maemo5 Oct 03 13:32:26 * RST38h has heard bt gfs functionality can be somehow reenabled though Oct 03 13:32:53 RST38h: and what is there that i could try to port then? Oct 03 13:33:08 that is: i have no idea for what software should i look Oct 03 13:33:15 sivang: bottom line is: force-assiciate to several neighbour stations, for each one get TA. You end with a pattern of intersecting rings with a width of 550m each Oct 03 13:33:42 hmm, on the other hand geting stuff like gvfs or fuse would be nice to browse samba shares, maybe this stuff has some bt support too Oct 03 13:33:55 so with primary and first neighbour BTS you have an area of trpzoid shape and 550*550m Oct 03 13:34:13 3rd BTS cuts down significantly on that area Oct 03 13:34:25 also 4th, 5th aso Oct 03 13:34:45 dRbiG: Maemo5 uses Gnome file access backends Oct 03 13:35:14 dRbiG: Among those, there is a backend to access files on bt devices (obex://) Oct 03 13:35:28 o, so there is obex already Oct 03 13:35:29 good Oct 03 13:35:36 thx! Oct 03 13:35:39 dRbiG: I suggest you look at how it is implemented inGnome and try the same tricks on Maemo5 Oct 03 13:35:41 for all I can tell Nokia is just using network identifier to determine which land I'm in Oct 03 13:35:55 dRbiG: In THEORY,it should work Oct 03 13:36:09 so possibly off a few 100..1000km from my actual position Oct 03 13:36:27 dRbiG: Once you get it to work via some tricks, contact CepiPerez on talk.maemo.org and ask him to include this functionality into his FileBox file manager Oct 03 13:36:51 dRbiG: Personally, I would support such a request, and many other people would as weel Oct 03 13:37:21 RST38h: FileBox is the default browser? (i have localized menus) Oct 03 13:39:18 sivang: what I sketched in that psot is a way to get a location up to a precision <100m off, *inside* buildings where no GPS ever will work Oct 03 13:39:41 with TA? Oct 03 13:39:41 :P Oct 03 13:39:45 yes Oct 03 13:39:52 and no :-P Oct 03 13:39:56 dRbiG: FileBox is the *usable* browser Oct 03 13:39:57 the problem with TA is that in bigger cities, you'll always have it low Oct 03 13:40:12 so what? Oct 03 13:40:27 as in it gets useless for precision, even at 100m Oct 03 13:41:15 Stskeeps: read the post, understand the principle, then come back criticising Oct 03 13:41:50 DocScrutinizer: didn't criticise the principle, was just pondering about foundation Oct 03 13:42:16 Why do you ever need a location inside the building? Just use a bigger payload! Oct 03 13:42:33 DocScrutinizer: yes, that's what you imply in the post- very nice Oct 03 13:42:42 RST38h: usable or not that wasn't my question :P Oct 03 13:42:47 DocScrutinizer: i worked with in-door positioning technologies for 2-3 years at uni, we even tried radiation based positioning :) Oct 03 13:43:01 DocScrutinizer: but i'll read post better and give a proper feedback Oct 03 13:43:29 Stskeeps: cool. have you done anything with RTK-GPS stuff? Oct 03 13:43:54 lindi-: hmm, think that was after i switched to healthcare Oct 03 13:44:20 Stskeeps: when I got somewhat equidistant points on a map (call those BTS) and I know I'm <550m away from 3 of them, and 550m DocScrutinizer: i forget my GSM, but don't you only have TA from one BTS? Oct 03 13:45:06 read the post Oct 03 13:45:16 DocScrutinizer: what are those BTSs? Oct 03 13:45:29 base transmitter stations aka towers Oct 03 13:46:24 DocScrutinizer: ah Oct 03 13:46:31 * sivang rereads post Oct 03 13:47:36 I'm forcing the mobile equipment into registering with neighbour cells, by exploiting NOKIA's(!) net monitor function in 6210 Oct 03 13:47:57 so I get TA for more than just primary aka servincing BTS Oct 03 13:48:36 what is the best sdk for building qt/kde apps for maemo?(so far im aware of the nokia qt sdk, and the maemo sdk vm) Oct 03 13:48:44 DocScrutinizer: yeah, true, that could work Oct 03 13:49:12 alas on 6210 I couldn't implement a proper app for that, and on N900 the functions in ISI/celmo are missing (as they are on FR btw) Oct 03 13:49:17 piggz: the nokia qt sdk will save you trouble setting up Oct 03 13:49:28 is that netmon available onN900? Oct 03 13:50:04 sivang: i have it set up already, but it totally failed at loading koffice as a cmake project in qtcreator...was weird, the first letter was missing from all file/dir names! Oct 03 13:53:08 piggz: don't know about koffice Oct 03 13:57:41 Has anybody here experience in developing OpenGLES2 applications? Oct 03 13:59:31 how many OpenGLES2 applications do you see for maemo, The|Avatar? Oct 03 14:00:52 There are some. Some engines have been ported and there are some apps for download on OVI. Why? Oct 03 14:01:17 sp3000 : i'm going to hit packages.debian.org for debian linux 5 (x64) Oct 03 14:02:30 is lenny == 5 == "stable" these days? Oct 03 14:03:01 yes. Oct 03 14:03:46 grr Oct 03 14:06:21 * timeless_xchat hates trying to find/get glimpse Oct 03 14:08:16 KILL KILL DESTROY Oct 03 14:09:15 RST38h: ? Oct 03 14:10:14 nuts Oct 03 14:10:27 warte auf renteNokia-N900:/usr/bin# aptitude Oct 03 14:10:27 Ouch! Got SIGSEGV, dying.. Oct 03 14:10:33 hmm Oct 03 14:10:41 The most annoying kids in high school were those who lusted after power - student government. Oct 03 14:13:22 ok, now i have a version of glimpse that runs Oct 03 14:13:31 but it doesn't like my data Oct 03 14:13:37 pupnik_: lusted for MY power... Oct 03 14:14:08 timeless_xchat: you isntalled glimpse x64 on the device? Oct 03 14:14:40 anyone know of a way to get a n900 to charge via a usb power pack Oct 03 14:14:46 does it require the middle pair to be shorted? Oct 03 14:14:59 because it seems to be hit and miss for me when it charges Oct 03 14:15:33 i just drew in lines between the two contacts with a pencil, and now it's charging :P Oct 03 14:15:46 http://mxr.maemo.org/flashsupport/search?string=xxx&find=&findi=&filter=%5E%5B%5E%5C0%5D*%24&hitlimit=&tree=flashsupport Oct 03 14:16:10 sivang : mxr.maemo.org doesn't run on an n900 ;-b Oct 03 14:16:14 Stskeeps: the sar3* guy. Oct 03 14:16:31 kohyes Oct 03 14:16:31 pupnik: This is true for elsewhere too Oct 03 14:16:38 RST38h: ah Oct 03 14:16:49 timeless_xchat: ah, and all of this tinkering you do from the n900? :-o Oct 03 14:16:51 pupnik: Workplace, government, etc. Oct 03 14:17:04 korhojoa: in general, if you don't short, it tries to negotiate for power Oct 03 14:17:04 korhojoa: yes Oct 03 14:17:08 sivang : ayup Oct 03 14:17:31 timeless_xchat: admirable Oct 03 14:17:31 korhojoa: in order to charge without having to short, you simply need a charging cable, not a data cable. Oct 03 14:18:23 pupnik: maemo.org too ;) Oct 03 14:18:25 nidO: duh what? charging cable? is that an official USB spec? Oct 03 14:18:59 sp3000 : looks like i forgot to copy the search databases - oops :o Oct 03 14:19:08 :) Oct 03 14:19:11 well no, its just the kind of cable supplied with almost any usb charger or similar, that has the data pins missing Oct 03 14:19:45 err, and that's supposed to short D+- how? Oct 03 14:20:43 -rw-rw-r-- 1 timeless timeless 501M Jul 7 03:26 xref Oct 03 14:20:55 it'll take a bit to copy the database over, Oct 03 14:21:06 lemme figure out if i have useful magic for it Oct 03 14:21:07 timeless_xchat: xchat better now? :-D Oct 03 14:21:23 hey, can someone give me an up-to-date sources.list for the n900? mine's failing 3 of 4 repos... Oct 03 14:21:42 timeless_xchat: hope you love my sucking config :-P Oct 03 14:21:48 nice RST38h Oct 03 14:24:26 docscrutinizer : haven't had time... too complicated Oct 03 14:24:49 i just changed the foreground color to black and the background color to white Oct 03 14:25:03 that alone makes it vaguely usable Oct 03 14:25:53 Hi! What do I need to go again to be able to use sudo instead of su (root)? THere's some sudoers file but I can't seem to find the page at maemo.org any more. Oct 03 14:26:05 infobot: sudo Oct 03 14:26:06 [~sudo] Better than su, according to talon. It allows a permitted user to execute a command as the superuser or another user, as specified in the sudoers file. Or can allow you to do silly things like run X11 apps with root privileges; also good in scripts with "username ALL = NOPASSWD: /some/program", or http://www.aplawrence.com/Basics/sudo.html, or good for ordering sandwiches, or not pseudo Oct 03 14:26:12 install rootsh Oct 03 14:26:24 infobot: rootsh Oct 03 14:26:25 rumour has it, rootsh is an easy way to get root and it's found here: http://maemo.org/downloads/product/OS2008/rootsh/, or http://maemo.org/downloads/product/Maemo5/rootsh/ Oct 03 14:26:57 infobot: gainroot Oct 03 14:27:03 infobot: gainroot? Oct 03 14:27:04 timeless_xchat: I do have rootsh installed. Would appreciate help getting from there to sudo, since my user still cannot use sudo yet. Oct 03 14:27:18 sudo gainroot Oct 03 14:27:26 * sivang had to remove recaller since it somehow rejected calls Oct 03 14:27:39 and started doing so just like this, out of the blue Oct 03 14:27:51 * sivang also wonders why it uses .aac ?! Oct 03 14:28:10 sivang: I also had some problems with recaller and had to remove it. :P Some time ago, though; I can't remember what my problem was. Oct 03 14:29:19 kwtm: it started rejecting calls like a madman, so it got removed. Oct 03 14:29:52 sp3000 : looking forward to 9am tomorrow? Oct 03 14:30:39 timeless_xchat: my morning starts at 6am I think but yeah Oct 03 14:30:51 you'll be flying still? Oct 03 14:32:02 timeless_xchat: Thank you for responding to my query about sudo. Are you able to help me? Oct 03 14:32:04 in about an hour Oct 03 14:32:16 kwtm: ask the channel Oct 03 14:32:39 i disappear randomly, sometimes for hours (flight coming...) Oct 03 14:32:39 oh, you'll be like right on time then Oct 03 14:32:43 timeless_xchat: I already had rootsh installed (and I can do all things as the superuser); but when I try to execute sudo (e.g. "sudo ls") it states that I do not have permission. Oct 03 14:32:46 brb, milking cow Oct 03 14:32:55 I believe that I need to edit the sudoers file, but do not have details on this. Oct 03 14:33:04 Google fails to isolate the correct web page at maemo.org Oct 03 14:33:12 or shopping for foor, whatever, same result Oct 03 14:33:14 kwtm "sudo gainroot" Oct 03 14:33:15 food even Oct 03 14:33:20 not "sudo whatever" Oct 03 14:33:21 kwtm "sudo gainroot" Oct 03 14:33:22 not "sudo whatever" Oct 03 14:33:23 kwtm "sudo gainroot" Oct 03 14:33:25 not "sudo whatever" Oct 03 14:33:30 (less moo though) Oct 03 14:33:46 timeless_xchat: You did mention "sudo gainroot" which I had already tried, but tried again just in case I missed something. Oct 03 14:33:52 kwtm : ls is busybox Oct 03 14:33:54 timeless_xchat: it appears to give me a root prompt. Oct 03 14:34:00 you can't make it su Oct 03 14:34:07 it gets pissy Oct 03 14:34:35 writing a sudoers file is fairly trivial Oct 03 14:34:44 * marienz eyes the spammer Oct 03 14:34:44 i've done it a dozen times Oct 03 14:35:01 timeless_xchat: I agree that it would be trivial for you. Perhaps you could give me some pointers? E.g. where should the file be located, and what should its contents be? Oct 03 14:35:22 /etc/sudoers.d/ Oct 03 14:35:43 but there's a perfectly good manual page for it Oct 03 14:35:52 "/etc/sudoers.d/" appears to be a directory, but is there any particular file it should contain? Oct 03 14:35:53 google really will work Oct 03 14:36:02 Excellent! I will try again with google with that keyword. Oct 03 14:36:13 Thank you for the info, and also the info that you have done it dozens of times. Oct 03 14:36:17 each file in there is added into sudoers Oct 03 14:36:29 update-sudoers or whatever manages that Oct 03 14:36:47 basically any file in there is an example. .. Oct 03 14:37:34 ah, so I would need to run the update-sudoers program as part of the trivial task of writing a sudoers file. Got it. Oct 03 14:38:09 could someone please give david galindo a better icon for "calculus"? Oct 03 14:38:29 if you use the directory (as you should...) Oct 03 14:39:32 ooh, a catorize ui? Oct 03 14:40:34 Okay, the manual page appears to list parameters that I do not need to learn right now, so I have instead gone and checked my desktop linux installation and see now that what I need to do is echo "%sudo ALL=(ALL) ALL" > /etc/sudoers , so I will try that. Oct 03 14:40:53 don't do that Oct 03 14:40:58 don't do that Oct 03 14:40:58 don't do that Oct 03 14:41:08 Oh, what sort of negative consequences are there for doing this? Oct 03 14:41:26 if you mess up, your device won't work? Oct 03 14:41:38 you're replacing a file the system uses Oct 03 14:41:45 timeless_xchat: what's that thing with the icon? :) Oct 03 14:42:01 the reason there's a directory for such files Oct 03 14:42:05 and a management script Oct 03 14:42:17 is to enable *safe* management and coexistence Oct 03 14:42:27 you're stomping on all existing users Oct 03 14:42:32 which is braindead Oct 03 14:42:38 Ah, I see now. I've managed to locate http://wiki.maemo.org/Root_access (apparently it's "sudser" and not "sudoer"??) Oct 03 14:42:52 ...I hope not Oct 03 14:43:13 whenever you see a single greater than, think "i'm not looking before i'm leaping, this will probably be very bad" Oct 03 14:43:30 * timeless_xchat shakes head Oct 03 14:43:43 if you don't understand how sudoers works, don't touch!! Oct 03 14:43:46 I am continuing to read the sudoers file manual in the meanwhile, but need to make sure I understand it correctly because there are no examples. Oct 03 14:43:53 a phone is a terrible thing to waste Oct 03 14:44:10 timeless_xchat: Well, naturally, I would agree. I came to this IRC channel to understand how sudoers works. Oct 03 14:44:30 ~ $ ls -l /etc/sudoers.d|wc -l Oct 03 14:44:37 14 Oct 03 14:44:48 your mileage may vary Oct 03 14:44:58 but that's roughly a dozen examples Oct 03 14:45:03 free with every n900 Oct 03 14:45:33 maybe only 8 or 9 come with the device Oct 03 14:45:44 a bunch of apps have apparently supplemented my set Oct 03 14:46:09 timeless_xchat: he can always reflash ;p Oct 03 14:46:16 timeless_xchat: that appears to have a different approach than what I am familiar with: apparently each command needs to be sudo enabled separately? Oct 03 14:46:32 * DocScrutinizer pipes timeless_xchat | uniq again. First warning! Oct 03 14:46:51 kwtm : read each file Oct 03 14:47:08 and learn how to use dpkg -S Oct 03 14:47:12 timeless_xchat: In other words, for example, I could not use that approach to read/write to a privileged directory with piping in the middle fo a shell script? Oct 03 14:47:21 timeless_xchat: Currently reading each file now. Oct 03 14:48:06 that sudoers.d is some maemo thing I guess, does visudo support editing those? Oct 03 14:48:12 offhand, it sounds like you want to do something incredibly dangerous Oct 03 14:48:24 It is difficult to get an overall sense of how this works from each individual file, but am I correct above that each command is separately specified? For example, I don't see a listing for "ls"... Oct 03 14:48:52 Sudoers Manual Oct 03 14:49:04 sudo will read each file in /etc/sudoers.d, skipping file names that end in ~ or contain a . character to avoid Oct 03 14:49:10 timeless_xchat: Not necessarily "incredibly dangerous". From time to time one would need to do something as su, and I'd rather specifically make each line sudo rather than run a whole script as root. Oct 03 14:49:15 www.sudo.ws/sudo/sudoers.man.html Oct 03 14:49:40 lindi : i don't know why you'd call that "maemo" specfic. .. Oct 03 14:49:46 ah indeed "Note that unlike files included via #include, visudo will not edit the files in a #includedir directory unless one of them contains a syntax error. It is still possible to run visudo with the -f flag to edit the files directly." Oct 03 14:49:54 timeless_xchat: probably because I was mistaken :) Oct 03 14:49:59 Okay, maybe I'm making a wrong assumption here: does the sudo command allow me to run one command as root (e.g. "I want to do 'ls' as root rather than as user")? Or is it for specific commands. Oct 03 14:50:27 read the F***** manual Oct 03 14:50:40 and keep in mind that it doesn't allow "you" Oct 03 14:50:49 timeless_xchat: wow, I never thought someone would actually say that literally to me. Oct 03 14:50:55 it allows (generally ) anything on a given device Oct 03 14:51:15 i've never written it out before either... Oct 03 14:51:22 seems #includedir was implemented in 2009-04-18 Oct 03 14:51:24 timeless_xchat: But, anyway, as I said, I am currently reading it. It describes the definitions and aliases etc., but I am trying to figure out what it all means put together. Oct 03 14:51:29 but i just pasted a manual link for lindi a few lines ago Oct 03 14:51:47 lindi : maemo uses update-sudoers, not #include iirc Oct 03 14:52:17 timeless_xchat: (sudo will read each file in /etc/sudoers.d) doesn't apply to maemo's weird 'increased security' boot slowdown update-sudoers sheme though Oct 03 14:52:22 kwtm : keep in mind that sudo is designed to enable "least privilege" Oct 03 14:52:23 For example, "user definitions" ... what would it take to allow a given user, such as "user", to run root commands? I'm trying to sort out what I need to do from other info that is not directly relevant. For example, I don't think aliases are relevant at this point. Oct 03 14:52:40 docscrutinizer : err, do we do that at boot?! Oct 03 14:53:02 * timeless_xchat always saw it in postinst/prerm Oct 03 14:53:03 lindi-: checking files in sudoers.d with visudo is exactly what update-sudoers is all about Oct 03 14:53:06 or whatever Oct 03 14:53:13 Also it talks about User_Spec ::= User_List Host_List '=' Cmnd_Spec_List \ Oct 03 14:53:13 timeless_xchat: yes Oct 03 14:53:17 (':' Host_List '=' Cmnd_Spec_List)* Oct 03 14:53:41 I am trying to figure out if the backslash at the end of the first line is a continuation (ie. without it I can put both lines on a single line) or whether it is "or" or whether it is required. Oct 03 14:53:43 kwtm : if you're actually concerned about other processes on your device Oct 03 14:53:50 etc. etc. Oct 03 14:54:18 I presume User_List is the name of a list of users --can I put a single user name on there? If it is asking for a list, is it a list separated by spaces, or commas, or the NAME of a list? etc. etc. Oct 03 14:54:21 then having a bunch of magic commands which more or less write arbitrary data to restricted directories is probably a bad idea Oct 03 14:54:29 timeless_xchat: ah, I can't find update-sudoers from debian. so maybe that was the maemo specific part? Oct 03 14:54:32 I therefore came to this forum hoping to get specififc examples. Oct 03 14:54:33 the n900 runs almost everything as "user" Oct 03 14:54:44 lindi : that part might be Oct 03 14:55:02 lindi : .d/ directories grow in debian "late" Oct 03 14:55:06 lindi-: exactly Oct 03 14:55:23 it's standard "we can't see beyond the tip of our nose" Oct 03 14:55:24 timeless_xchat: True, and I run almost everything as "user", but there are a number of things that require "root" to run. Instead of typing in each command at the command line, I'd rather put it in a script. That way I can look it over and proofread before I actually run it. Oct 03 14:55:56 "just because every other thing needed a .d/ doesn't mean we should get it right for the next thing we invent" Oct 03 14:56:32 kwtm: we aren't evry inclined to give examples how to do the wrong thing. That's why we try to teach you about how sudo is *supposed* to be used Oct 03 14:56:41 kwtm : sure, but it might be better to have a script than really long commands in a sudoers file Oct 03 14:57:01 is there anyway to portrait mode the task switcher? Oct 03 14:57:09 timeless_xchat: yesone thing's for sure. sudo never was meant to enable arbitrary commands to user, without any password query Oct 03 14:57:15 DocScrutinizer: It sounds like you are saying that using a script is the wrong approach, and you think it would be better to type in the commands individually, is that correct? I must say I'm a bit nervous about doing that. Oct 03 14:57:24 err kwtm ^^^ Oct 03 14:57:31 it sounded like you wanted to split a script of 20 lines into 7 sudo commands inside that same script Oct 03 14:57:39 that's wrong Oct 03 14:57:53 timeless_xchat: I would agree, but isn't that what I'm saying, that we should have a script instead? Oct 03 14:58:08 deaf people having a conversation, always entertaining. Oct 03 14:58:13 timeless_xchat: What do you meanm split a script of 20 lines into 7 sudo commands? Not sure how you understand me, but perhaps I can give a use case. Oct 03 14:58:20 crashanddie: Thanks. :P Oct 03 14:58:29 just write the script so it is well owned, protected against writes and properly handles input... Oct 03 14:58:50 a use case does tend to help Oct 03 14:59:10 in the script, just check that uid == 0, and you're done Oct 03 14:59:11 DocScrutinizer: What do you mean? Sudo has no password query? I was hoping to rely on that for protection. If so, then sudo is not the command I'm looking for. Oct 03 14:59:15 it can only be run by root or sudo. Oct 03 14:59:20 crashanddie: you're referring to #maemo ? :-D Oct 03 14:59:27 crashanddie : hey, i like sign language conversations Oct 03 14:59:28 DocScrutinizer: haha :D Oct 03 14:59:31 kwtm: you can configure sudo to ask for password or not Oct 03 14:59:42 so much more expressive than finnish poker faces Oct 03 14:59:43 timeless_xchat: I didn't smash them, I just said they were "entertaining". Oct 03 14:59:44 DocScrutinizer: On my desktop linux, sudo asks for password. Does it not do this on the N900? Oct 03 14:59:57 it doesn't Oct 03 15:00:02 user doesn't have a password Oct 03 15:00:05 lindi-: Oh, I see. So is it configured by default to ask for password or not? Oct 03 15:00:13 timeless_xchat: What do you mean? My sudo asks for password. Oct 03 15:00:13 your device wouldn't be usable if it did... Oct 03 15:00:18 kwtm: at this point I must confess I'm not using maemo... Oct 03 15:00:33 kwtm: one thing you may want to learn about real-time conversation: get a grip on the discussion thread, you're all over the place mate. Oct 03 15:00:33 kwtm: I thought you wrapped your head around that enough to understand that this depends on /etc/sudoers.d/yourconfig Oct 03 15:00:46 timeless_xchat: My device says: "Enter password" (and then I enter password) then "error: 'user' is not allowed to do /bin/ls" or something like that... Oct 03 15:01:07 crashanddie: Sorry, must be the lag in this internet connection. Oct 03 15:01:31 ~ $ grep user /etc/passwd Oct 03 15:01:32 kwtm: not my point, just don't ask the same question to different people, it really doesn't help. Oct 03 15:01:49 user:*:29999:29999::/home/user:/bin/sh Oct 03 15:02:05 timeless_xchat: see http://wiki.maemo.org/User:Joerg_rw/tools for setting ip proper sudoers config to ask for ROOT password when doing *root* privileged commands Oct 03 15:02:06 kwtm : sudo isn't particularly intelligent Oct 03 15:02:31 docscrutinizer : don't confuse people Oct 03 15:02:38 oh yea Oct 03 15:02:43 BLARGH Oct 03 15:02:56 and s/ip/up/ ;) Oct 03 15:03:34 keys close enough on almost all kbd layouts Oct 03 15:04:03 * timeless_xchat is using an n900, what's your excuse? Oct 03 15:04:12 timeless_xchat: I think you're quoting from your password file to tell me that user has no password, right? But you're quoting from *your* password file, right? Mine says "user:wig2bDfifuJiewre:29999:29999::/home/user::/bin/sh Oct 03 15:04:22 I mean, I set a password for user, in case it hasn't been clear. Oct 03 15:04:30 this mega idiocy to ask for USER password when doing 'sudo rm -rf /' - I DON'T GET IT Oct 03 15:04:48 DocScrutinizer: Ahh, I see what you are saying now: it should be the ROOT password it asks for? Oct 03 15:05:00 YES Oct 03 15:05:07 kwtm : setting a password for the user account on the n900 is um... odd Oct 03 15:05:08 DocScrutinizer: this always amazed me as well Oct 03 15:05:14 you can do it, but why? Oct 03 15:05:23 it isn't well encrypted Oct 03 15:05:30 timeless_xchat: wouldn't it affect all sorts of stuff like our poor HAM? Oct 03 15:05:39 Okay, I am beginning to understand you now. Oct 03 15:05:41 which means anyone who picks it up now knows the cleartext Oct 03 15:05:58 ignoring that, it generally isn't checked Oct 03 15:06:03 DocScrutinizer: really mega idiocy Oct 03 15:06:18 ~ $ sudo ls Oct 03 15:06:25 Password: Oct 03 15:06:34 it's still asking me for a password Oct 03 15:06:54 and we've already established that i don't have one Oct 03 15:07:00 sivang: refer to http://wiki.maemo.org/User:Joerg_rw/tools for an easy fix Oct 03 15:07:04 using a password means anyone can ssh to user@ Oct 03 15:07:30 w/o a password, ssh to user@ is disabled (well, you could set up an ssh key) Oct 03 15:07:46 oops i didn't know that, ty timeless_xchat Oct 03 15:07:49 (this assumes you foolishly install sshd) Oct 03 15:08:16 but i *like* sshing to the n900 Oct 03 15:08:20 timeless_xchat: right, that is why I take care not to set it up Oct 03 15:08:32 timeless_xchat: disable challange passwords Oct 03 15:08:41 timeless_xchat: aiui you can even 'passwd user' and still sudoers is enabling proper working maemo Oct 03 15:08:54 Okay, then let me back up: to prevent typos and other silly mistakes, what is the best way to run a series of commands as root? Type them in individually? (risk of typos) Put it in script file and run script file as root? (able to redo commands easily if need to repeat the process, but risks running many commands as root whereas only a few lines need root privileges) Use sudo with root password? (seems to be best but apparently Oct 03 15:08:55 you are saying that it has drawbacks) Oct 03 15:09:04 as it always has NOPASSWD in all enabled commands Oct 03 15:09:12 timeless_xchat: and exactly how is not being able to ssh to user better than being able to ssh to root? Oct 03 15:09:23 kwtm, best way is to write your script and package it up Oct 03 15:09:30 so that you can reproduce it simply by installing Oct 03 15:09:32 :) Oct 03 15:09:37 and then others also get benefits Oct 03 15:09:41 crashanddie : password based root is also stupid Oct 03 15:09:53 timeless_xchat: and it's what the default install of openssh-server does. Oct 03 15:10:04 how is it stupid? Oct 03 15:10:05 kwtm: using sudo with root pw is safe and sane Oct 03 15:10:07 what lcuk described is what i did... Oct 03 15:10:11 crashanddie: true, it should use pub/priv key and have the challange passwd disabled Oct 03 15:10:19 DocScrutinizer: no it's not Oct 03 15:10:21 timeless_xchat, thats because you are smart :) Oct 03 15:10:25 docscrutinizer : it isn't Oct 03 15:10:25 crashanddie: and be abel to import keys from a usb stick inserted to it actong as OTG Oct 03 15:10:28 just don't ever forget your terminal unlocked or somebody might alias sudo="/usr/bin/sudo rm -fr /" Oct 03 15:10:28 crashanddie: ;) Oct 03 15:10:39 remember, we aren't using strong password hashing Oct 03 15:10:42 lcuk: I am not familiar with packaging, and also I am more referring to maintenance scripts (e.g. a script to backup everything to home server --that one doesn't need root privileges, of course) so it's not necessarily installing a package. Do I really need to learn how to package before I can run root commands reliably? Oct 03 15:10:42 DocScrutinizer: on an n900, *maybe*. But it really doesn't do anything else than su -c Oct 03 15:10:47 timeless_xchat: aha, why? Oct 03 15:11:00 kwtm, a backup script would be better inside extras :) Oct 03 15:11:02 docscrutinizer : there isn't an /etc/shadow Oct 03 15:11:09 that way after you have backed up and do a normal restore Oct 03 15:11:11 meh Oct 03 15:11:13 ok Oct 03 15:11:13 read about the history of that file Oct 03 15:11:15 it can install all your scripts back Oct 03 15:11:18 lindi-: rm -rf / doesn't work Oct 03 15:11:23 why it exists, etc Oct 03 15:11:35 kwtm, reproducability without scrabbling for command line options ;) Oct 03 15:11:37 lcuk: That is an example, but for example the backup script won't know how and when to log on to my home server and rsync which files, etc. Oct 03 15:11:41 crashanddie: I don't think that is the point :) Oct 03 15:11:44 lindi : fwiw, the sun people actually spent the time proving that command should error Oct 03 15:11:51 and theirs does Oct 03 15:11:55 kwtm, it will be if you also backup the backup script configuration options :P Oct 03 15:11:56 crashanddie: feel free to add a /* there :) Oct 03 15:11:56 timeless_xchat: I *know* about shadow Oct 03 15:12:02 lindi-: :) Oct 03 15:12:08 the maemo backup is surprisingly good at things like that Oct 03 15:12:33 just consider this a minor threat compared to allowing sudo gainroot without any pw query Oct 03 15:12:34 yeah, while we all like to bash maemo backup Oct 03 15:12:34 it actually is handy Oct 03 15:12:50 lcuk: Also, am I really limited to "backup" (that was just an example) and need to get "a backup script" --what about all other possible scripts I could write, like "keep a record of cell phone signal strength" etc. --I might not be able to find a script to package for that.... Oct 03 15:12:59 docscrutinizer : the time to crack passwd isn't significant today Oct 03 15:13:12 kwtm, put all those other scripts into a kwtm tools package :) Oct 03 15:13:13 so from a security perspective, it isn't worth having Oct 03 15:13:20 and store it on a git somewhere Oct 03 15:13:23 why is it based actually? apart for some small erros during the restore the break application restoration ti works quite nice Oct 03 15:13:24 you're enabling shoulder surfing Oct 03 15:13:33 timeless_xchat: crashanddie: I never claimed installing proper root password is the ultimate safety solution, I just say it's megatons better than it's now Oct 03 15:13:50 lcuk: So you feel that I should learn to create packages ... wouldn't that take even longer than the other options I listed? Oct 03 15:14:03 sivang : it doesn't handle semi common edge cases Oct 03 15:14:07 kwtm, every jedi must build his own light sabre Oct 03 15:14:07 lcuk: Oh, I need to run a git server? Oct 03 15:14:09 like recursive symlinks Oct 03 15:14:15 kwtm, not at all Oct 03 15:14:23 plenty of communal git hosting places Oct 03 15:14:27 even maemo.org :) Oct 03 15:14:30 gitorious Oct 03 15:14:31 gitorious.org ftw Oct 03 15:14:31 github Oct 03 15:14:32 etc Oct 03 15:14:32 etc Oct 03 15:14:33 et Oct 03 15:14:34 timeless_xchat: ah, I see Oct 03 15:14:35 bsh: lol Oct 03 15:14:37 kwtm: not trying to become a jedi, just trying to install some CJK packages. Oct 03 15:14:43 timeless_xchat: where do we have them on the fs? Oct 03 15:14:48 it took me 5 minutes to do my first push Oct 03 15:14:49 sivang : the restore behavior also fails Oct 03 15:14:57 sivang : not out of the box Oct 03 15:14:59 timeless_xchat: yes, I've experienced that yesterday Oct 03 15:14:59 WTF is everybody stuttering today? Oct 03 15:15:02 or it wouldn't have shipped Oct 03 15:15:20 the single sign on people tripped on it Oct 03 15:15:24 MohammadAG51, :) glad you have gotten over your git duck Oct 03 15:15:25 DocScrutinizer: w.w.w.w..w.what? Oct 03 15:15:29 its very useful Oct 03 15:15:30 lcuk: We might have gotten away fmro the original topic. I'm not sure how hosting my packages (or creating one will help) --so, you're saying packaging will allow me to run things as root in a more secure manner than su or sudo? Oct 03 15:15:30 so when i say wouldn't have shipped, i mean it Oct 03 15:15:50 [2010-10-03 17:13:24] etc Oct 03 15:15:52 [2010-10-03 17:13:24] etc Oct 03 15:15:53 [2010-10-03 17:13:25] et Oct 03 15:15:53 they had to change their impl because backup is stupid Oct 03 15:16:03 lcuk: Recall that I am actually not trying to distribute a script. I'm just running my own script so I can do it again easily if I need to. The scripts aren't for anyone else. Oct 03 15:16:06 timeless_xchat: oh, that is something else Oct 03 15:16:14 timeless_xchat: a bit drastic Oct 03 15:16:20 [2010-10-03 16:39:45] don't do that Oct 03 15:16:21 [2010-10-03 16:39:49] don't do that Oct 03 15:16:23 [2010-10-03 16:39:50] don't do that Oct 03 15:16:41 kwtm, every script you write has one user: yourself, and you ARE trying to distribute it, because you will have problems after you reflash remembering yourself what you needed to do to configure it Oct 03 15:16:45 sivang : i know where nearly all of the skeletons are hidden :) Oct 03 15:17:00 /!\ Floodwarning@#maemo!DocScrutinizer /!\ Oct 03 15:17:13 [2011-11-03 18:22:34] Finally - PR1.3! Oct 03 15:17:16 lcuk: I see. SO I should have a package, you're saying, and if I need to reflash, then I reinstall the package and run it again, right? Oct 03 15:17:20 making it a package allows you to just dpkg -i it back or install directly from HAM as part of your other restoration stuff Oct 03 15:17:21 kwtm : you can use Mydocs as your "distribution" source fwiw Oct 03 15:17:30 but a webserver is better Oct 03 15:17:34 SYSTEM DOWN FOR MAINTENANCE warning to channel Oct 03 15:17:38 timeless_xchat: so there's an app set that can create recursive symlink that will fail the backup that I can test? :) Oct 03 15:17:49 lcuk: But doesn't that mean I can't run the script twice? The second time dpkg -i will say "you already installed that package". Oct 03 15:17:52 yeah kwtm and if its sudo requiring, add a line in sudoers to run it without password Oct 03 15:17:59 SYSTEM OF A DOWN? Oct 03 15:18:06 oh, system down, meh Oct 03 15:18:10 sivang : there are some bugs in bugs.maemo listing apps which trip on it Oct 03 15:18:16 iirc one was a mail app Oct 03 15:18:20 timeless_xchat: heh Oct 03 15:18:31 timeless_xchat: that's a-nough of a hint :) Oct 03 15:18:42 there's also a demo package in timeless.justdave.net/maemo Oct 03 15:18:50 lcuk: ?? But that is the question I am asking: "How do I add a line in sudoers to run it" (not necessarily without a password, but if necessary). I was originally asking about the sudoers manual. Oct 03 15:19:04 from memory two or three real apps hit it Oct 03 15:19:08 lol Oct 03 15:19:22 It appears that the manual uses some notation I am not used to ... I think "|" means "or", not pipe. But am still muddling through this... Oct 03 15:19:25 plus single sign on ("fixed" before it shipped ) Oct 03 15:19:58 kwtm : write a file in sudoers.d/ Oct 03 15:20:02 and use update-sudoers Oct 03 15:20:13 kwtm, I just added the following into my package http://github.com/lcuk/liqbase-playground/blob/master/liqbase_base_fs/etc/sudoers.d/liqbase-playground.sudoers Oct 03 15:20:16 the file matches the syntax of the existing files Oct 03 15:20:19 and in the postinst run updatesudoers Oct 03 15:20:45 http://github.com/lcuk/liqbase-playground/blob/master/debian/postinst#L21 Oct 03 15:20:51 http://www.csmonitor.com/World/terrorism-security/2010/1003/US-issues-travel-alert-for-Americans-in-Europe Oct 03 15:20:53 :( Oct 03 15:20:59 it happened Oct 03 15:21:12 timeless_xchat: That much is understood. What I need help with is the format of the sudoers file. Yes, I see that there are many examples, but none match exactly what I think I want, so I am hp=oping to UNDERSTAND what the format is instead of just copying frmo other files. Oct 03 15:21:31 lcuk: Okay, so I should download that file you listed and check the format? Oct 03 15:21:33 kwtm: check http://wiki.maemo.org/User:Joerg_rw/tools, it will set up proper password query for root access. then you can add similar lines like >>user ALL = NOPASSWD: /usr/bin/led-pattern-helper *<< in /etc/sudoers.d/led-pattern-editor.sudoers to your own file there Oct 03 15:21:46 kwtm, just look at it, its text file the link shows contents Oct 03 15:21:53 kwtm : i'd suggest you not rely on arguments Oct 03 15:21:58 DocScrutinizer: Thanks, reading that web page now... Oct 03 15:22:10 and instead have a dedicated script which sanity checks args Oct 03 15:22:14 timeless_xchat: bollocks Oct 03 15:22:17 then just whitelist the file Oct 03 15:22:22 kwtm, for full docs: http://www.sudo.ws/sudo/sudoers.man.html Oct 03 15:22:24 i believe Oct 03 15:22:48 keep in mind that maemo doesn't ship the latest version of sudo Oct 03 15:22:55 timeless_xchat: they're just on high alert because france went to high alert because some french idiots were kidnapped in nigeria Oct 03 15:22:58 so you might want to avoid group tricks Oct 03 15:23:01 the basics should be there i bet Oct 03 15:23:13 lcuk: Am reading that manual. Apparently it says the lines should look something like this: "User_Spec ::= User_List Host_List '=' Cmnd_Spec_List" However I don't see any "::=" in the sudoers files so I think it's using a different format. Oct 03 15:23:47 Okay, sorry, my toddler just got up so I have to go take care of him now. WIll leave this IRC still up so I can review responses. Thx. Oct 03 15:23:48 lcuk : oh it says "major" - i'm fine then ;) Oct 03 15:24:09 kwtm : you need to google "bnf" Oct 03 15:24:15 kwtm: listen to what timeless_xchat suggests: create a script doing all you need in e.g /usr/local/sbin, set it to chmod og-rw, add a line to sudoers.d/yourfile to invoke that script by 'sudo myscript' Oct 03 15:24:25 kwtm: defined to be Oct 03 15:24:40 you want the wikipedia entry or something Oct 03 15:24:49 lcuk, DocScrutinizer : is this documented somewhere more than just snippets? maybe we could add some writeup about this from someone who understands this top-bottom? Oct 03 15:25:07 kwtm, you are reading the grammar rules which are used to create the parser, that is not the expected line format Oct 03 15:25:11 sivang: what exactly now? Oct 03 15:25:22 continue reading :P Oct 03 15:25:35 sivang : it's like an instruction manual for a swiss army knife Oct 03 15:25:40 DocScrutinizer: how to package a script that requires root/sudo access :) Oct 03 15:25:40 i've never seen one Oct 03 15:25:43 timeless_xchat: true Oct 03 15:25:47 it's hardly useful Oct 03 15:25:50 a'la maemo Oct 03 15:25:58 just ask macgyver Oct 03 15:25:59 a'la linux Oct 03 15:26:02 sivang: meh, that's trivial really Oct 03 15:26:12 anyway Oct 03 15:26:20 i have a plane to consider Oct 03 15:27:41 DocScrutinizer: okay Oct 03 15:27:54 sivang: only particular maemo thing is update-sudoers, and you strictly are NOT supposed to edit /etc/sudoers Oct 03 15:28:34 use /etc/sudoers.d/* instead, add your own sudoers config there as a new file Oct 03 15:28:55 then run update-sudores and profit Oct 03 15:28:56 listen to that advice Oct 03 15:29:00 don't be a smartass like I did once Oct 03 15:31:43 DocScrutinizer: that's for sure, I've never done it even on Ubuntu Oct 03 15:32:08 MohammadAG51: I'm never a smartass :) I follow orders :-p Oct 03 15:32:24 DocScrutinizer: if that's not on the wiki, may I go ahead and put it there? Oct 03 15:33:02 MohammadAG51: ^^ Oct 03 15:34:02 so we have somewhere to direct people at? Oct 03 15:36:40 uuh... a question... Oct 03 15:37:14 using xterm on 770 to enable usb hostmode, but folder are different from the guide on maemo Oct 03 15:37:47 why would the folder structure be different ? Oct 03 15:40:55 Anyone know if there's a bug open for "packages promoted to Extras-testing aren't showing up"? Oct 03 15:43:46 valgrind: 'cause nokia's linux 'distros' are just a set of random stuff patched and hacked together and they breake with the slightest touch of summer breeze ;) Oct 03 15:44:22 valgrind: as for your question the randomness answers it Oct 03 15:44:25 :) Oct 03 15:45:01 haah.. thanks.. Oct 03 15:45:18 with the slighest touch of summer breeze Oct 03 15:45:25 nerd peotry :) Oct 03 15:45:40 pastry? Oct 03 15:45:47 :D Oct 03 15:45:56 pottery Oct 03 15:46:19 honestly, maemo is the most f*cked up thing when it comes to coherence that i ever saw in unix world Oct 03 15:48:05 well.. get even more fucked up when apps to enable usb hostmode fire off the wrong commands. and when i try manually im in a forest of folders that are incoherent with the online guides. Oct 03 15:48:18 its fun... but maybe too much fun Oct 03 15:48:35 valgrind: they are incoherent with one another Oct 03 15:49:12 it seems to me like nokia's been employing different dev teams at random intervals with no documentation passing Oct 03 15:49:18 if there ever was documentation ;) Oct 03 15:49:30 so the hacker edition gets to be a hacker edition of a hacker edition :( just great Oct 03 15:50:43 well.. like the iPad.. still cool.. not working... but still cool :D Oct 03 15:50:49 haha Oct 03 15:50:49 hehe Oct 03 15:50:54 good one :) Oct 03 15:51:07 s/incoherent/inconsistent/ btw :) Oct 03 15:51:36 i learned classical english.. not the strange dialekt you are speaking :D Oct 03 15:52:01 Chani: incoherent and inconsitent to be precise Oct 03 15:52:16 :) Oct 03 15:52:26 i think we went off the cliff there :D Oct 03 15:54:18 honestly, they designed an os and they use bind to make the dir structure hold together? Oct 03 15:54:45 dRbiG: meep. Oct 03 15:54:55 that would be perfectly okey if it were a quick community hack made by people who never saw each other in spare time between being paid and slacking Oct 03 15:55:01 * Chani wonders what new fun meego will bring... Oct 03 15:55:30 hmm.. that would explain alot. Oct 03 15:55:52 but howcome i ran into a hardlink i couldnt access as root ? Oct 03 15:56:01 is that complete nonsense ?? Oct 03 15:56:03 ouch. Oct 03 15:56:08 bye Oct 03 15:56:37 i am seeing unexplainable things on my laptop OS Oct 03 15:56:47 "auch" and "bye" !! hahaha... like calling tele company support devision :D Oct 03 15:57:00 sivang: (not on the wiki, may I go ahead) sure pal - why do you even ask? Oct 03 15:58:28 hmm.. my nokia 770 is beginning to feel like the ugly girlfriend you wont leave because you feel sorry for her. Oct 03 15:58:33 I will not give up Oct 03 15:59:14 valgrind: oh dear, that's NOT good Oct 03 15:59:24 valgrind: that is a very bad situation to be in. Oct 03 15:59:27 valgrind: (im in a forest of folders that are incoherent) find usually helps a lot Oct 03 15:59:51 sysfs nodes moving to a different subsystem but still keeping basename Oct 03 16:00:01 thanks :) Find.. ofcoarse. geee.. my unix knowledge is rusty. sorry. Oct 03 16:00:30 sysfs ?? Oct 03 16:00:48 DocScrutinizer: while I'm at it, is there a way without flasher to check if you are in R&D mode? Oct 03 16:00:59 sure Oct 03 16:01:15 but don't ask me for the command offhand Oct 03 16:01:25 cal-tool -b? Oct 03 16:02:11 DocScrutinizer: I'll research though apt-cache search ;) Oct 03 16:02:17 you'll find it when you grep /etc/init.d for some keywords I forgot Oct 03 16:02:25 DocScrutinizer: that is enough, thanks Oct 03 16:02:56 DocScrutinizer: btw the fact that I can do 'root' using the rootsh package does not put me into R&D yes? Oct 03 16:03:13 cal-tool: unrecognized option `--help' Oct 03 16:03:15 Usage: cal-tool [OPTIONS] Oct 03 16:03:16 Options: Oct 03 16:03:18 --get-rd-mode, -d Get R&D mode status Oct 03 16:03:47 sviabsolutely nope Oct 03 16:03:52 sivang: ^^ Oct 03 16:03:57 DocScrutinizer: yep, just found it by --help the cal-tool on the device Oct 03 16:08:24 sivang: using root puts messybox into UID:root mode, nothing else Oct 03 16:08:52 ah, and just because I like it so much: Oct 03 16:08:55 ~messybox Oct 03 16:08:56 messy... err busybox is meant for lean scripting. Regarding all the missing options and immanent limitations (see su) it's not really the interactive shell of choice. A lot of people hate busybox because a lot of system integrators don't understand the difference between busybox and a decent user interactive shell plus unix utils Oct 03 16:36:49 Somebody ban him already, will you? Oct 03 16:39:14 why is this channel alive? didnt maemo merge with some other platform and form meego? Oct 03 16:39:47 there are couple of n900 out there with maemo installed Oct 03 16:40:17 oh, yeah. I didnt think too much there Oct 03 16:40:18 this channel is dead Oct 03 16:40:24 you have come to the wrong place Oct 03 16:41:23 okay, so this is basically just the place for the obsolete maemo platform for the n900 (and earlier versions). meego is what it will be in the future? Oct 03 16:41:45 or symbian? :) Oct 03 16:42:10 well maemo will stay as well as long as there are maemo 5 devices out there Oct 03 16:43:07 c3l: MeeGo hasn't had anything resembling an app developer, let alone consumer, release. Oct 03 16:43:27 c3l: Nokia's next device may well be labelled as running MeeGo, but effectively it is "just" Maemo 6 rebranded. Oct 03 16:44:28 If only one company offers meego phones, and only one meego phone (like with n900) - how big of an impact will it have? Oct 03 16:44:32 oh I see. but wont meego be intel based instead of arm, or is it the other way around. so there will be some core differences? Oct 03 16:45:14 any scheduled plans for nokias sucessor of the n900? Oct 03 16:45:22 RST38h: (ban) huh? Oct 03 16:45:24 not much is announced c3l Oct 03 16:45:33 presumably meego will run on both intel and arm Oct 03 16:46:09 definitely meego will run on arm (as well) Oct 03 16:46:40 much of the goodwill meego is getting in the community is because of the open-source support history of maemo, which is best of the major phone makers Oct 03 16:47:24 I see, thanks for clarifying :) Oct 03 16:47:35 people can (and do) complain about things, but it was nokia who started out the modern tablet / smartphone era with the 800x480 N770 Oct 03 16:47:55 -N Oct 03 16:48:00 oh y Oct 03 16:48:57 c3l: I think the successor is called Nokia N9, you could search for info on it... Oct 03 16:49:19 though i suppose Sharp Zaurus has a better claim to that title Oct 03 16:49:42 o/ Oct 03 16:49:53 you had one right DocScrutinizer ? Oct 03 16:50:00 nope Oct 03 16:50:09 alas not Oct 03 16:50:17 i didn't have the money for one Oct 03 16:50:28 pupnik_: oh, thanks! Oct 03 16:51:21 or the RX-71 Oct 03 16:51:24 I must admit i'm greedy for higher resolutions, tablet-sized devices Oct 03 16:52:05 like a 770 that's all-bezel, where the protective case flips out to reveal a keyboard + trackpoint/dpad Oct 03 16:52:15 i mean no-bezel Oct 03 16:52:22 (bitflip in brain) Oct 03 16:55:18 Admit it, you all want an iPad, sans the Apple logo Oct 03 16:56:13 RST38h: and sans iOS? sure. Oct 03 16:57:01 javispedro: libsdl-gles1.2-dev cannot be found what i do? Oct 03 17:02:40 MohammadAG51, u there? Oct 03 17:03:00 Xephyr emulation is just toy, you can't actually test something like video game ... Oct 03 17:03:20 toy? Oct 03 17:03:22 iOS is more Unix than Maemo or Meego Oct 03 17:03:29 BSD based, real Unix Oct 03 17:03:59 nope Oct 03 17:04:04 * RST38h climbs a tree just in case Oct 03 17:04:16 not iOS, OSX is Unix certified (level 3?) Oct 03 17:07:12 guys is there anyway to open my sms conversations on the pc? Oct 03 17:07:19 any way* Oct 03 17:07:34 or export them in another readble format Oct 03 17:07:59 new ovi suite should support it Oct 03 17:08:27 hope so Oct 03 17:08:51 not matter of hope actually :) Oct 03 17:11:56 alright how do you run something gui in scratchbox? Oct 03 17:13:29 even autocomlete not working in scratchbox, not talking about not displaying non ascii chars Oct 03 17:16:02 which target? Oct 03 17:16:08 alright which is tcl library Oct 03 17:16:55 Hi, MohammadAG51, not quite comletely not working, i meant apt-get autocomlete Oct 03 17:17:47 Hi, MohammadAG51, not quite com*p*letely not working, i meant apt-get autocom*p*letion Oct 03 17:18:30 target ARMEL Oct 03 17:18:58 Any log of all signals that the app produce? I've got a new N900 and it would be great if I could even guess why it vibrates or plays signals, ... Oct 03 17:19:46 you can't run a UI in armel, use your N900 Oct 03 17:20:34 maemo.org is down? Oct 03 17:21:01 Surfa, it doesnt work with the n900 Oct 03 17:21:27 infobot, maemodown Oct 03 17:21:33 infobot, maemo-down Oct 03 17:21:34 somebody said maemo-down was http://maemo.org/news/announcements/maemo-org-service-break-2010-10-03/ Oct 03 17:21:38 says messaging is not supported with this version of the device software Oct 03 17:21:41 MohammadAG51: so scratchbox only for cli testing Oct 03 17:22:06 oh well Oct 03 17:22:29 juk, yes, UIs can be tested in X86 Oct 03 17:24:35 btw isn't it brilliant to have the announcement about maemo.org being down just exactly on maemo.org ? Muhahaha :-D Oct 03 17:25:25 ROFL Oct 03 17:25:38 Hi All Oct 03 17:25:43 just as funny as recommending to 'man man' to learn how to install mandb Oct 03 17:28:06 anybody got a copy of http://maemo.org/news/announcements/maemo-org-service-break-2010-10-03/ so we could put it somewhere else, e.g. wiki.maemo.org, twitter, or whatever? Oct 03 17:28:10 Bash1, well, partly true Oct 03 17:29:49 can anyone tell me if kernel-power is needed for swappolube app Oct 03 17:29:54 so downloading that was pointless then Surfa ? Oct 03 17:30:09 and is swappolube app effective for you all Oct 03 17:30:59 Bash1, not really Oct 03 17:31:08 after my last reflash, I haven't installed any app except for rootsh and bash3. So, just curious to know if swappolube has anything to offer in my case Oct 03 17:31:32 explain Surfa Oct 03 17:36:13 DocScrutinizer: hehe Oct 03 17:36:57 hmm, is m.o down? Oct 03 17:37:16 I just tried to save something o_O Oct 03 17:38:53 ... i shoul Oct 03 17:38:56 err Oct 03 17:39:08 i should say that too, i think Oct 03 17:39:16 maemo.o down?! wtf??? Oct 03 17:39:30 http://www.gossamer-threads.com/lists/maemo/community/63411 Oct 03 17:39:41 DocScrutinizer: There's your copy of the message, and the URL to point people to Oct 03 17:40:10 -.- Oct 03 17:40:58 7pm utc... 20mins left? Oct 03 17:41:11 no, 80 Oct 03 17:41:55 Jaffa: thnx Oct 03 17:41:56 DocScrutinizer, whazzup with maemo.org? Oct 03 17:42:02 :P Oct 03 17:42:14 * DocScrutinizer kicks slonopotamus_ Oct 03 17:44:22 my mom redirects dns to oter box that says 'we have expected downtime, see details at ' in such cases Oct 03 17:44:47 s/oter/other/ Oct 03 17:44:47 slonopotamus_ meant: my mom redirects dns to other box that says 'we have expected downtime, see details at ' in such cases Oct 03 17:45:26 that's hard to establish for a worldwide DNS with load balancing Oct 03 17:45:49 how do i stop scratchbox session Oct 03 17:45:58 propagating of DNS thru the worldwide DNS service can take up to 24h Oct 03 17:46:56 my mom reduces dns expiration time one-two days _before_ planned downtime :P Oct 03 17:47:06 you probably don't want to extend the 2h downtime by a 24h lead-in and a 24h lead-out Oct 03 17:47:35 nevermind, i'm just in a good mood :) Oct 03 17:47:39 that's still insane for 2h Oct 03 17:47:42 what should i stop in order to close session in scratchbox Oct 03 17:47:51 juk, ctrl+d? Oct 03 17:48:11 define 'session in scratchbox' Oct 03 17:48:24 slonopotamus_: after login back it still says sb-conf: You must close your other Scratchbox sessions first Oct 03 17:49:08 DocScrutinizer, jacekowski, any ideas how to dump an sqlite3 database into csv? Oct 03 17:49:14 juk, i think it wants you to kill processes Oct 03 17:49:14 juk: sb-conf killall --signal=9 Oct 03 17:49:32 MohammadAG51: directly from sqlite3 client Oct 03 17:50:01 MohammadAG51: don't remember the excact commands, but it goes like .format csv, .dump myfile.csv Oct 03 17:50:13 Kaadlajk: God bless you, smart people Oct 03 17:51:47 dRbiG, thanks :D Oct 03 17:55:56 http://imagebin.ca/view/KzdvCKGG.html <- my first n900 widget :) Oct 03 17:56:42 Goliath23: looks nice - hmm, you're using qt for gui right? Oct 03 17:56:51 not finished yet, though. if anyone wants to help, please just give me a note https://garage.maemo.org/projects/buliscores Oct 03 17:57:02 dRbiG: yes, Qt and a QTableView Oct 03 17:57:42 dRbiG: although they don'#t fully support translucent widgets. as soon as they support it I will make it semi-translucent to it blends nicer to the theme Oct 03 17:58:28 hmm, yeah, i have 'figuring out transparency' on my hacking list Oct 03 17:58:54 I have a lot of features in mind (support several leagues, sound and LED notification for goals, pull after push updates instead of simple pull, etc etc.) Oct 03 17:59:01 maybe I should write them down as tasks in garage Oct 03 17:59:52 mhm, i need to figure out transparency too, but under gtk Oct 03 18:00:03 it is possible that's for sure Oct 03 18:00:33 and I also want to use my server as a proxy to the real backend sites where the data is scraped. that way I can react if they change their layout. two options there: 1. implement the parser on the server or 2. make the server fake the old format Oct 03 18:00:37 1. is probably better Oct 03 18:01:45 and since I have to implement a server anyway, I can also put the parsing classes into it and send the widget some JSON objects which look the same no matter if kicker.de or somespanishsite.es is used Oct 03 18:02:06 I'm just afraid that I need a bit coding help :) Oct 03 18:03:45 how can I make a projechomepage on garage? do I have a shell access or something? Oct 03 18:55:51 I can't log into my garage shell. do I need to upload a key or so? Oct 03 18:56:07 Goliath23: No shell access. Oct 03 18:57:40 Goliath23: what made you think you had shell access? Oct 03 18:58:09 ~ping Oct 03 18:58:10 ~pong Oct 03 18:58:11 Goliath23: you need to register projects with gods of garage :-D Oct 03 19:01:50 Jaffa, crashanddie, DocScrutinizer: the email I got was talking of shell access (now that I think about it, it also mentioned CVS as version control system -.-) Oct 03 19:02:24 so how I Oct 03 19:02:29 uhm Oct 03 19:02:39 how do I edit my projects description / homepage Oct 03 19:02:41 ? Oct 03 19:02:49 actually I just want to add a screenshot.. Oct 03 19:03:38 you dd html content to git err projectfrontpage folder, (or whatever it's called) Oct 03 19:03:48 add* Oct 03 19:04:05 git err projectfrontpage Oct 03 19:04:06 err? Oct 03 19:04:19 (i'm new to git, only svn experience so far) Oct 03 19:06:02 you can choose from SVN,git on Ur proj admin/CVS page Oct 03 19:06:42 you add your ssh key somewhere there to enable upload Oct 03 19:07:15 you can html-brove repo if enabled for public viewing Oct 03 19:07:27 browse* Oct 03 19:07:46 DocScrutinizer: ah, just read the starter document, I need a www directory! Oct 03 19:07:49 thanks! Oct 03 19:08:23 yw Oct 03 19:08:41 Goliath23: Either upload it as a file, or create a 'www' directory in your VCS root and put whatever you want in there Oct 03 19:09:15 Jaffa: ah, maybe screenshot upload as a file will do for now. Oct 03 19:09:16 file? FQN? Oct 03 19:09:18 thanks Oct 03 19:09:50 hmm, missed that Oct 03 19:14:27 crashanddie: maemo.org alive again? Oct 03 19:14:36 no idea Oct 03 19:14:39 was it down? Oct 03 19:14:50 please clean topic just in case Oct 03 19:14:58 k Oct 03 19:15:09 hey Oct 03 19:25:50 hello world Oct 03 19:25:55 Portrait mode in settings app, http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=832478#post832478 Oct 03 19:26:13 I wonder what other apps can be patched quickly Oct 03 19:28:50 jaffa : thumbs up for the description Oct 03 19:32:58 DocScrutinizer, Oct 03 19:33:12 modified-hildon-desktop looks like hildon-desktop with modified sources Oct 03 19:33:17 I was expecting patches :( Oct 03 19:33:51 well, you know whom to pester, no? Oct 03 19:34:33 otoh the cpu hog patch might merge on mhd as well, just try? Oct 03 19:35:46 jaffa : wah, launching here-and-now caused the browser to crash (internal error) Oct 03 19:35:57 sp3000 : have you tried here-and-now? Oct 03 19:36:10 DocScrutinizer51, lol he just posted a reply, http://my.svgalib.org/770/n900/hd-2.2.141/modified-hildon-desktop_3.1_armel.deb Oct 03 19:36:11 wtf is here-and-now? Oct 03 19:36:32 DocScrutinizer51, a nokia service, shows weather and probably other stuff that doesn't work in israel xD Oct 03 19:36:33 err wut? Oct 03 19:36:33 it's in at least -devel Oct 03 19:36:43 DocScrutinizer51, mhd with latest git Oct 03 19:36:59 MohammadAG: ? with cpuhog killed? Oct 03 19:37:06 mohammadag : nokia generally rolls out services in stages Oct 03 19:37:13 typically .uk would be a good first stage Oct 03 19:37:27 english market, small, easy to cover Oct 03 19:37:40 DocScrutinizer51, latest git = yes Oct 03 19:37:50 timeless_xchat: it sounds ...exciting! Oct 03 19:37:53 good :-D Oct 03 19:37:54 timeless_xchat, meh, won't expect anything from them in IL Oct 03 19:38:09 the N900 isn't officially on sale here, I imported mine from the US Oct 03 19:38:29 * MohammadAG thanks Nokia for ignoring AT&T Oct 03 19:39:23 MohammadAG: URL borked :-( Oct 03 19:39:33 DocScrutinizer51, wfm Oct 03 19:40:39 my.svgalib.org E nonexist Oct 03 19:42:47 lol for some reason it fails with wget Oct 03 19:43:28 DocScrutinizer51, http://my.svgalib.org/770/n900/hd-2.2.141/modified-hildon-desktop_3.1_armel.deb works now Oct 03 19:49:07 OK, if anyone ever feels like watching "Smokin' Ace"... Oct 03 19:49:14 'don't'? Oct 03 19:49:15 :P Oct 03 19:49:27 well, watch it alone, then make your call Oct 03 19:49:50 do NOT, under ANY CIRCUMSTANCE, watch it with girlfriend/family prior to safescreening it Oct 03 19:49:59 watch it with a grizzly Oct 03 19:50:11 (a panda will do in a pinch) Oct 03 19:50:55 between bodies flying around a hotel lobby after being shot by a .50 cal, hardcore neo-nazi redneck idiots dying by falling on their own chainsaw, and people waking up in lakes finding their fingers chewed off... Oct 03 19:51:00 well, you get the idea. Oct 03 19:51:17 * MohammadAG calls gf and invites her over for a movie Oct 03 19:51:28 you don't have a gf, numnuts Oct 03 19:51:34 s/num/numb/ Oct 03 19:51:34 crashanddie meant: you don't have a gf, numbnuts Oct 03 19:51:47 you don't know what I have and what I don't have :P Oct 03 19:52:07 you have an n900 Oct 03 19:52:10 * MohammadAG kicks crashanddie in the nuts Oct 03 19:52:14 you don't have a n810 Oct 03 19:52:15 timeless_xchat: well, it doesn't crash me Oct 03 19:52:38 MohammadAG: now my nuts are numb :( Oct 03 19:53:02 MohammadAG: looks like my reply on tmo kinda killed the thread, didn't it? Oct 03 19:53:31 crashanddie, no, it just proved that he's talking from his ass Oct 03 19:53:49 sp3000 : any way to catch browser deaths? Oct 03 19:53:59 they never seem to trigger crash reporter Oct 03 19:54:12 timeless_xchat: probably because they're child processes Oct 03 19:54:35 well crash reporter catshes anything that cores Oct 03 19:54:36 DocScrutinizer51: http://www.maemopeople.org/index.php/jaffa/2010/10/03/here_and_now_what_s_on_near_you_now Oct 03 19:55:04 if it's some case where it murders itself or something, maybe not Oct 03 19:55:19 timeless_xchat: Don't blame me for your shitty browser; I'm using a well publicised API and pointing at a remote web site. If that can crash the thing, there're more worrying things than H&N now working ;-) Oct 03 19:55:52 Although, having used the browser on a Blackberry and Symbian, microb's still pretty good. Oct 03 19:59:12 Jaffa: have you tried the browser on bberies with the new tracking pad? (the ones that don't have the clit anymore) Oct 03 19:59:41 crashanddie: I've got a Curve from work. It's got some kind of weird touch sensor thing. Oct 03 19:59:54 the browsing experience is much improved I have to say Oct 03 19:59:58 I have a 9700 Oct 03 20:00:03 whatever it may be, bold probably Oct 03 20:00:18 crashanddie, is there a time limit to reply with the source? (GPL) Oct 03 20:00:23 no Oct 03 20:00:39 so he could be uploading sources for years? Oct 03 20:00:44 indeed Oct 03 20:11:31 sigh @ skype calls Oct 03 20:11:32 1002 1 pulse R < 3932 1.6 39.1 /usr/bin/pulseaudio --system --high-priority Oct 03 20:11:32 2411 1 user S < 11884 4.8 30.0 /usr/lib/telepathy/telepathy-stream-engine Oct 03 20:11:44 Load average: 3.62 3.58 3.20 Oct 03 20:13:37 this actually made me laugh out loud: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gx14mSUH1qQ Oct 03 20:13:41 lcuk: you'll enjoy it Oct 03 20:21:19 crashanddie, can't see anything "wrong" here http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0475394/parentalguide Oct 03 20:21:51 gconftool-2 -s /apps/osso/hildon-desktop/key-actions/ctrl_backspace_in_tasknav -t int 5 #AWESOME Oct 03 20:38:32 ugh, syncing with syncevolution clobbers SIP numbers for contacts Oct 03 21:00:00 DocScrutinizer51: effect = ? Oct 03 21:00:37 Jaffa: http://wiki.maemo.org/User:Joerg_rw/tools Oct 03 21:00:46 Jaffa, you need modified hildon-desktop Oct 03 21:00:52 ## new: with ctrl-BS for nice taskswitching, see Oct 03 21:01:08 MohammadAG: Does SSU count? Oct 03 21:01:22 Jaffa, no, but they install side by side Oct 03 21:01:35 modified-hildon-desktop is a different package Oct 03 21:01:42 http://my.svgalib.org/770/n900/hd-2.2.141/modified-hildon-desktop_3.1_armel.deb Oct 03 21:01:57 dpkg -i it, it won't replace your hd package, it'll just replace the binary in /usr/bin Oct 03 21:02:30 Jaffa: or just visit my tools page, and c&p :-D Oct 03 21:03:03 I see. Oct 03 21:30:21 http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0020629/parentalguide :-D , a penis would be the least to worry about. Oct 03 21:35:35 with a description like that how can I avoid clicking the link? (Pretty easily it turns out ...) Oct 03 21:38:10 everybody should make their own mind up and not rely on recommendations, not that I would show hardcore pornographie to childrens, but I don't think children get "damaged" by watching controversial movies. Oct 03 21:39:05 i do if the movie shows actual evil from the protagonist side Oct 03 21:39:20 so a horror slasher that revels in cutting people up is actually sickening media Oct 03 21:39:26 no, but their parents sure hate it when you bring them back after introducing the kids to freddie kruger, and then the parents bitch "we can't sleep anymore, they keep having nightmares, bla bla bla" Oct 03 21:40:07 tobis87, neither do I. and I never said otherwise :) Just my own comments on why I'm not too likely to follow that link ... Oct 03 21:40:49 do you know if there is a chance for working ovi-maps navigation with speech support when using maemo? Oct 03 21:40:57 hmm Oct 03 21:41:06 johnx: you seem to have a solid case of misunderstanding Oct 03 21:41:11 how do I add a scheduled shutdown on ubuntu? Oct 03 21:41:33 crashanddie, likely caused by apathy. it's a real problem Oct 03 21:41:38 :) Oct 03 21:41:47 nvm, I'll just use a sleep 10800; halt Oct 03 21:41:59 MohammadAG: "man shutdown" maybe Oct 03 21:42:11 shutdown -something-that-i-forgot -h Oct 03 21:42:17 maybe -t? Oct 03 21:42:19 pupnik_: Which is really ridiculas, if you have watched Braindead from Peter Jackson. It is so overdone, you will laugh at every splasher if you watched this movie... Oct 03 21:43:14 tobis87: ok noted Oct 03 21:45:27 i guess it's not easy to convince someone of something that isn't seen physically Oct 03 21:46:27 what flows through us individuals as common culture is sometimes difficult to percieve - without an external vantage point of some sort Oct 03 21:47:05 shutdown -h "tomorrow at teatime" Oct 03 21:49:03 shutdown -h "tonight... you" Oct 03 21:49:48 that's for sure beyond what date(1) syntax allows Oct 03 21:51:05 you have to install glibc-memes Oct 03 21:51:15 The --date=STRING is a mostly free format human readable date string such as "Sun, 29 Feb 2004 16:21:42 -0800" or "2004-02-29 16:21:42" or even "next Thursday". Oct 03 21:51:42 pupnik_: it is not blood, which makes people fear, but the subtile... watching psycho is the best example, what will happen next? and "all quiet on the western front" is subtile in a way, because it shows how senseless war really is. Oct 03 21:52:12 lol... i misread that as "subtitle", not "subtile" Oct 03 21:52:21 wondering wtf you were on about Oct 03 21:52:34 though, tobis87, that's way off topic and has been for a while Oct 03 21:57:57 crashanddie: Well, I was just referring to MohammadAG: crashanddie, can't see anything "wrong" here http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0475394/parentalguide , which is ridiculas if you compare it to the parental guide to the movie all quiet on the western front. Oct 03 21:59:00 "Hey, why the hell did you shoot that black dude?" "Well, mr officer, I was just trying to make a point from a conversation we had earlier on" Oct 03 22:01:09 … Oct 03 22:01:46 that's it, no more bacon for you Oct 03 22:01:50 BACON Oct 03 22:03:30 crashanddie: I had to make my comment, because comparing "Parents should know this movie contains very graphic violence" to a "a penis is shown" in an anti-war movie is just hilarious. Oct 03 22:04:16 you didn't have to do anything, now just please let this topic die out Oct 03 22:06:52 crashanddie, quit being the topic enforcer :P Oct 03 22:09:30 ok, but bacon is not much more intellectual, I really don't want to argue, but right now there doesn't seem to be much maemo related talk going on. just to make life less boring... Oct 03 22:14:32 was I just insulted of being as intellectual as bacon? Oct 03 22:14:46 being compared to bacon is *never* an insult Oct 03 22:14:49 whatever the comparison is Oct 03 22:15:01 agreed, it's high praise Oct 03 22:15:09 there should be bacon awards Oct 03 22:16:10 tobis87: oy, I was seeing "subtitle" as well. the word you're looking for is "subtle" :) Oct 03 22:17:24 i need to find a bar that serves bacon Oct 03 22:18:31 Chani: Yes, I know should not use google for translation, that much. :-D Oct 03 22:18:48 in US English at least I think it's 'subtle' not 'subtile'. Is it different in other English variants? Oct 03 22:19:56 johnx: no, it is always "subtle" Oct 03 22:20:26 "subtile" sounds like something a window manager might do, but it's not a real english word anywhere ;) Oct 03 22:20:40 In german it is "subtil". Oct 03 22:20:40 well, in the dictionary here it says that 'subtile' is 'Now rare' whateverTF that means Oct 03 22:20:59 tobis87: ah, cool :) Oct 03 22:21:04 archaic probably Oct 03 22:22:05 watch out for those downloaded dictionaries... I have a german->english one on my n900 that frequently gives me words so obscure I'm pretty sure a few of them never existed at all Oct 03 22:22:28 anyways, I vote we just change the English and German spelling to subtile. No point in having them differ by only one letter Oct 03 22:25:03 damnit, now I want bacon :P Oct 03 22:26:26 I once had the problem, that instead of the ordinary dictonary, ubuntu had installed a dictonary for OpenOffice, which enforced academic speak. :-D Oct 03 22:27:02 did it highlight "don't" as a misspelling? Oct 03 22:27:24 Chani: how can a word never have existed if it exists in a dictionary on your n900 Oct 03 22:27:33 NEVER EXISTED Oct 03 22:27:57 Wanted to complicate every word... :-D Nah, don't remember, was just on my netbook, fixed it quickly. Oct 03 22:28:37 But, I think it was Ubuntu 8.10 Intrepid Ibex Oct 03 22:28:38 crashanddie, just because someone gives you a book full of letters and calls it a dictionary, doesn't mean that those collections of letters are words Oct 03 22:28:59 johnx: actually, as soon as a word is used, it exists Oct 03 22:29:04 sdlfhsfs Oct 03 22:29:09 it means "no, that's crap." Oct 03 22:29:13 being in a dictionary does not define a word's existance. Oct 03 22:29:54 he has a point... english's lack of a governing body means you can't disprove anything about english Oct 03 22:30:05 ieatlint, sdlfhsfs Oct 03 22:30:08 it also means i can decide that alot is proper Oct 03 22:30:19 alot is great Oct 03 22:31:03 http://hyperboleandahalf.blogspot.com/2010/04/alot-is-better-than-you-at-everything.html Oct 03 22:31:19 hehe, yeah, i love that Oct 03 22:31:25 was thinking of the alot when saying that :) Oct 03 22:32:10 http://www.allmotivated.com/pictures/Demotivational-pictures-maintenance.jpg :) Oct 03 22:32:42 what's wrong with that? it's not turned on... Oct 03 22:32:55 also, go isa and simms Oct 03 22:33:58 johnx: this woman always cuts off the butt of the ham before putting it in the pan, but one day she wonders why. It's a tasty piece, soft and yummy, so why throw it away? Because her mom did. So she calls her mum, and asks why she did it. "I don't know, that's how my mother used to do it", the mother replies, so the woman calls her grandmother, and asks why she threw away the butt of the ham. She replies that she didn't have a Oct 03 22:34:55 johnx: the dictionary is just like the pan. It's not big enough. It can't hold the wealth of words that are available. A word can't be a "real word", as much as it can't be a "non-existent word". If you like a word, use it, it really doesn't matter whether it's in a dictionary or not. Oct 03 22:35:21 Infilipostulantly correct. Oct 03 22:35:47 crashanddie, sdlfhsfs Oct 03 22:36:15 you do realise what you're doing, yes? Oct 03 22:36:33 crashanddie, yes. that's why it amuses me Oct 03 22:36:35 crashanddie: you got cut off. Oct 03 22:36:42 "she didn't have a Oct 03 22:36:58 Chani: "she didn't have a pan big enough!" Oct 03 22:37:19 Mrs X's little boy has grown up to go "sdlfhshfs" in a room full of adults trying to have a decent conversation. Oct 03 22:37:51 "If you like a word, use it" <-- but if you like to be understood, think twice about that :) Oct 03 22:38:05 crashanddie: conversation? at this time of night? ;) Oct 03 22:38:07 my point being that it takes consensus for a word to be useful Oct 03 22:38:20 Chani: "night" is a very geographically subjective term :) Oct 03 22:38:26 oh right that Oct 03 22:38:37 do you really think that the guy who invented "LOL" waited for consensus? Oct 03 22:38:38 and that languages might not have 'rules' but they have 'guidelines' about what words are 'acceptable' Oct 03 22:38:51 * Chani is now in europe, and is enjoying being in the same timezone as 80% of kde Oct 03 22:38:51 johnx: Unless you're in france. Oct 03 22:38:57 crashanddie, which is why it wasn't a useful word at first, it was just annoying Oct 03 22:38:58 yet, it's one heck of a popular word in the world Oct 03 22:38:58 johnx: Where there is a committee. Oct 03 22:39:56 SpeedEvil: do you know how the people who are part of the "Academie Francaise" are called? Oct 03 22:40:05 "The Immortals" Oct 03 22:40:33 This weekend, they voted in favour of a rule of the Academie Francaise that would limit new Immortals to be 75 max. Oct 03 22:40:43 Reasoning was: "We need more young blood" Oct 03 22:40:58 :) Oct 03 22:41:01 Anyone thinking of vampires at this stage? Oct 03 22:41:17 I was actually thinking of Highlander. Oct 03 22:41:31 But that doesn't work ell with a comittee. Oct 03 22:41:35 Oh come on, immortals, "we need more young blood"? Oct 03 22:41:47 and their costumes are even more ridicule Oct 03 22:42:50 http://www.academie-francaise.fr/images/immortels/portraits/girard.jpg Oct 03 22:42:57 this guy almost smells of dracula himself Oct 03 22:43:55 :) Oct 03 22:44:57 anyway, I'm out, later all Oct 03 22:52:17 If you ever will try to read Hegel, you will forget about languages... Oct 03 22:52:47 This is what I would call "geschwurbel", there might be some readable passages and interesting stuff, but most of it is hidden behind a huge construction of letters which don't mean anything to the normal person. Oct 03 22:55:51 Was this hegel's world spirit, or just a dsl reconnect? :-D Oct 03 22:57:43 err, server down? Oct 04 00:11:11 Can anyone explain the purpose of these files: http://gitorious.org/maemo-5-certificate-manager/maemo-security-certman/commit/b551ece82b3707baaea1f40cca15e435f05c0da4 ? Oct 04 00:11:41 It's a SSL CA key and certificate, but it's installed under /etc/certs/trusted and the same everywhere. Oct 04 00:12:17 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Root_certificate Oct 04 00:12:36 SpeedEvil: I know what a root certificate is. I want to know what this one is used for. Oct 04 00:12:52 It's the same for all phones, and the private key is public. I don't see the point. Oct 04 00:13:09 But it's clearly loaded from some maemo crypto libraries Oct 04 00:14:08 It also happens to be expired since ~2009... Oct 04 00:16:26 Good morning Oct 04 00:17:42 ah. Oct 04 00:18:00 Ok - it's hard to guage technical knowledge sometimes. Oct 04 01:57:22 DocScrutinizer, ping? Oct 04 01:57:45 hmm? Oct 04 01:58:03 DocScrutinizer51, what the hell is your maemo.org username? joerg_rw? Oct 04 01:58:13 yes Oct 04 01:58:15 I'm experiencing another episode of Moments in Competence here. Oct 04 01:58:17 OK, thanks. Oct 04 02:01:39 whatever episode that might be, seems I'm missing some meanings of words **** ENDING LOGGING AT Mon Oct 04 02:59:57 2010