**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Thu Oct 14 02:59:57 2010 Oct 14 03:28:10 miih Oct 14 05:42:11 so... i see lighttpd, mysql-server-4.1 / 5.0 , and php5 packages. does this mean that if i get an N900 now I will be able to put up the whole LAMP stack w/o puttiing up the whole Debian ...? Oct 14 05:43:42 no. LAMP is Apache, MySQL and PHP on linux. That would be more like LLMP :p Oct 14 05:44:35 heh right Oct 14 05:45:26 but, i want to run Drupal on my phone. and so all these fancy Android phones are not the best for me and anyways most highend devices are expensive but the N900 has crawled down to $300 or so Oct 14 05:46:42 chx: the n900 is not a phone =p it's a tablet with phone features Oct 14 05:46:49 Besides the N900 kicks the crap out of Android Oct 14 05:46:52 i know, i have an n810 Oct 14 05:46:58 Device vs OS Oct 14 05:47:06 TermanaN900: besides, the n900 can run adnoid as well Oct 14 05:47:11 *android Oct 14 05:47:12 ^^ Oct 14 05:47:20 another question... how's google maps? Oct 14 05:47:33 chx: there isn't a dedicated app for it Oct 14 05:47:37 http://maemo.org/packages/view/lighttpd/ chx Oct 14 05:47:44 but there is a website which i found pretty amazing Oct 14 05:47:44 Appiah, right, I mean Maemo vs Android Oct 14 05:47:47 it's such an awesome service, it even has transit in most cities. Oct 14 05:47:53 http://maemo.org/packages/view/mysql-server-5.0/ Oct 14 05:48:04 *searching website* Oct 14 05:48:12 http://maemo.org/packages/view/php5/ Oct 14 05:48:22 so yes there are maemo packages for your... LLMP :) Oct 14 05:48:24 Appiah: i know. i found them. the question was more like... do they work :) ? Oct 14 05:48:41 well php5 is in EXTRA-DEVEL Oct 14 05:48:44 chx, I see no reason why they wouldn't Oct 14 05:48:56 same with mysql-server Oct 14 05:49:03 Appiah, along with... you know.. mostly everything else Oct 14 05:49:04 and lighthttpd Oct 14 05:49:14 TermanaN900: :D Oct 14 05:49:40 just see if runs on those versions Oct 14 05:50:21 http://nokia-n900.com/travels-with-maep/ looks like this does all the navigation one wants? Oct 14 05:50:26 any experience? Oct 14 05:50:47 Appiah: what is the problem with php5 in devel? i mean people who use devel should be warned once and told in big red letters "we are not officially supporting this software (please repeat 10 times and verify by telling it 10 times in your n900's mic" ^^ Oct 14 05:50:57 would solve a bunch of problems i guess Oct 14 05:51:13 never used maep chx , I used OVI maps and mappero Oct 14 05:51:25 mikki-kun: did I say it was a problem? :) Oct 14 05:51:25 chx: http://www.google.com/maps/m <-- if you didn't know the website for google maps mobile Oct 14 05:51:38 Appiah: i thought that's why you wrote it in caps Oct 14 05:52:16 just noting that it will requrie the user to enable the extra-devel Oct 14 05:52:21 i founf the mobile website so far really good Oct 14 05:52:29 mikki-kun: quite awesome! Oct 14 05:52:31 mikki-kun: thanks Oct 14 05:52:35 mikki-kun: offline capabilities? Oct 14 05:52:40 no Oct 14 05:52:47 chx: stumbled upon it once, bookmarked it immediatly Oct 14 05:53:12 wasn't there a google maps app just released? Oct 14 05:53:18 (Not by google) Oct 14 05:53:21 chx: i guess no... only for online use therefore ;/ for offline use i think you are better of with mappero or such stuff Oct 14 05:53:37 I thought i saw something about it in my twitter feed Oct 14 05:53:54 chx: if you have geolocation enabled you can get full online navigation i guess Oct 14 05:54:09 as it asks for "can i get your locatiopn please?" Oct 14 05:54:31 so yeah... good for home... good luck when travelling :( Oct 14 05:54:42 * chx reads http://wiki.maemo.org/Navigation_Tools Oct 14 05:56:21 the wiki does not even mention public transit Oct 14 05:56:23 oh well Oct 14 05:56:24 good night Oct 14 06:09:15 gaah thenokiablog, this looks like a shit storm in the making Oct 14 06:12:19 if 1.3 just means modest doesn't suck then I'll be happy Oct 14 06:12:31 * TermanaN900 needs to remember to lock the n900 before putting it in his pocket :\ Oct 14 06:15:36 doc|home, I'm sure pr1.3 is fine, but the dual booting meego part needs some explanation. People are shouting yaaa! we is getting meego! on twitter. Oct 14 06:15:49 * mece sighs Oct 14 06:16:27 hah Oct 14 06:16:53 mece, dual booting is going to work with u-boot Oct 14 06:17:38 TermanaN900, yeah, but it changes nothing in terms of meego support for n900. The post kinda suggests that you will have a complete functional meego included. Oct 14 06:18:30 mece, you flash a special designed kernel image which has u-boot with maemo's kernel apended. u-boot loads, if it finds a valid kernel on the mmc it autoboots to that, if not it will boot the normal kernel image Oct 14 06:18:43 * mece sighs Oct 14 06:18:51 (9:15:11 AM) mece: TermanaN900, yeah, but it changes nothing in terms of meego support for n900. The post kinda suggests that you will have a complete functional meego included. Oct 14 06:18:57 mece, mention it to harha when he's on Oct 14 06:19:00 mece, what do you mean? There will be a fully functional meego Oct 14 06:19:08 I'm talking about a blogpost Oct 14 06:19:14 oh Oct 14 06:19:15 that people are excited about Oct 14 06:19:17 link? :p Oct 14 06:19:19 non eveloper people Oct 14 06:19:26 http://thenokiablog.com/2010/10/13/nokia-n900-pr13-dual-boot-meego/ Oct 14 06:19:50 developer I means. Oct 14 06:19:52 :) Oct 14 06:21:07 It kinda fails to mention what "dual booting meego" means in practice right now Oct 14 06:21:21 ^^ Oct 14 06:21:24 and people on twitter seems to be very excited about it. Oct 14 06:21:51 It's exciting for me too, but for more realistic reasons I vager Oct 14 06:22:16 s/vager/wager/ Oct 14 06:22:17 mece meant: It's exciting for me too, but for more realistic reasons I wager Oct 14 06:22:21 oh right. i see. well unless nokia has been working on something behind everyones back (including the adaption team), meego obviously isn't going to be fully functional when 1.3 comes (if its REALLY soon) Oct 14 06:23:03 Or do you mean vague as in the definition of MeeGo (meego vs harmattan)? Oct 14 06:23:05 exactly Oct 14 06:23:06 note that we don't really know what's the status on aava Oct 14 06:23:41 Corsac, no? Why don't you check the QA tests? :p Oct 14 06:24:32 TermanaN900: I mean, I have a n900 so I can try meego on n900, I don't own an aava and it's quite expensive last time I checked :) Oct 14 06:24:50 Well i mean that people seem to think that once pr1.3 is out, you can also use meego if you want. Seeing as meego is not exactly end-user compatible, people might be a tad disappointed. Oct 14 06:27:57 anyway, we'll see how it goes. The big news is that pr1.3 is close, but people seem to focus on the meego bit a little too much :) Oct 14 06:28:05 mece, mmm. But it seems you can't please a lot of these people with anything, so :p Oct 14 06:29:51 anyone knows if n900 have coreavc support? Oct 14 06:30:05 people are going to read that they'll get flash 10.1 and pink ponies on their n900 if that's what they want to read Oct 14 06:30:08 :P Oct 14 06:30:16 mece, well, i find MeeGo more interesting of a distro than Maemo but anyway :P Oct 14 06:31:16 mece: it might not be that bad http://meego.com/community/blogs/harrihakulinen/2010/meego-calling-n900 Oct 14 06:31:35 ofcource would meego beter its intel and nokia afterall , intel the biggest cpu part maker on the world Oct 14 06:31:46 well, afaik gsm works only on pinless sim... Oct 14 06:32:09 well, that's UI / ofono fault Oct 14 06:32:09 :P Oct 14 06:32:48 wow, people drilling in pipes here really is horrible to listen to Oct 14 06:33:03 GSM mode also works with PIN enabled SIM Oct 14 06:33:59 cool Oct 14 06:34:41 hatake_kakashi: eh? :P Oct 14 06:34:41 I can't see how it wouldn't work.. and it would also be quite ludicrous too to only have GSM (2G) capability for PIN disabled SIM cards Oct 14 06:34:44 doc|home, yeah, that post is very nice and explains the situation. The thenokiablog post does not explain the situation, and that's the one that's being tweeted- Oct 14 06:34:49 hatake_kakashi: software stack problem Oct 14 06:35:01 Stskeeps: btw, trying 1.1.80 wasn't a that bright idea, it didn't work out in the end (well, after boot it only shown a black screen and sometime some kind of cursor) Oct 14 06:35:19 Stskeeps: so I'll try a 1.1 when I get a chance :) Oct 14 06:35:20 Stskeeps, you fixed the dsme bug? Oct 14 06:35:24 hatake_kakashi, I don't think you understand Oct 14 06:35:28 Stskeeps, wait.. I don't understand.. how? unless I'm seeing things I have enabled 2G mode with PIN enabled SIM Oct 14 06:35:33 hatake_kakashi: on meego Oct 14 06:35:34 Stskeeps, sorry, wrong channel Oct 14 06:35:38 mece: yes Oct 14 06:35:39 TermanaN900, no I don't Oct 14 06:35:56 Stskeeps, ahh meego, well on maemo it does lol and this is maemo channel no? :) Oct 14 06:36:03 hatake_kakashi, on meego you can't use a pin locked sim just through the gui Oct 14 06:36:05 topic was on meego :P Oct 14 06:36:12 at the moment Oct 14 06:36:31 TermanaN900, wasn't meego on n900 still very much WIP? Oct 14 06:36:44 Stskeeps, ahh I see well now I can see how far I was left behind lol Oct 14 06:36:59 hatake_kakashi, it is still a WIP, along with the whole of meego Oct 14 06:37:16 It is actually MeeGo's fault not the adaption Oct 14 06:37:44 Because the GUI doesn't ask for the pin to unlock the SIM Oct 14 06:38:03 well I wasn't really referring to just the port but yeh the whole project is still very much WIP the last I read Oct 14 06:40:13 WIP is what? Apparently I'm not down with the lingo. Oct 14 06:40:18 work in progress Oct 14 06:40:50 yeh what Stskeeps said Oct 14 06:41:49 mece, now are you down with that.. dog? Oct 14 06:41:54 dawg* Oct 14 06:42:02 :p Oct 14 06:50:50 TermanaN900, yes :) Oct 14 07:37:24 Stskeeps: http://meego.com/community/blogs/harrihakulinen/2010/meego-calling-n900 Oct 14 07:37:30 But you already know that :) Oct 14 07:37:41 RST38h: yeah Oct 14 07:39:41 Stskeeps: Congratulations on the new role btw Oct 14 07:40:21 thanks - in practice it won't do much difference, harri's still attached to the work, nokia's providing resources, technical documents, kernel developers.. Oct 14 07:43:02 any of you guys running desktop command execution widget? I'm having a little difficulty locating whereabouts does desktop command execution widget stores user added commands Oct 14 07:43:31 MohammadAG51: do you understand arabic Oct 14 07:44:23 I have a strace output if it may come in handy, I can't see the plain ascii file in which it adds the user's commands from the strace output Oct 14 07:45:56 humm lol nm seems like I've solved my own problem :D Oct 14 08:00:35 SPLIT Oct 14 08:00:37 :p Oct 14 08:00:50 we know Oct 14 08:01:16 jacekowski, i would have been worried if you didn't Oct 14 08:02:12 09:56 -!- Netsplit *.net <-> *.split quits: etrunko, frade, MikeK, rosseaux, tank-man, korhojoa, `0660__, marienz, shamus, fr01b, (+19 more, use /NETSPLIT to show all of them) Oct 14 08:02:18 hard to not notice it Oct 14 08:38:50 hi Oct 14 08:39:25 scratchbox is unable to connect to the internet, but the computer itself is... what might be the problem? Oct 14 08:39:40 copy /etc/resolv.conf into /scratchbox/etc/resolv.conf and target /etc/resolv.conf Oct 14 08:40:22 hmh Oct 14 08:41:13 my email widget does not display Oct 14 08:41:49 can't start another one, so it should be running Oct 14 08:41:55 anyone know the process name? Oct 14 08:42:07 Stskeeps: did the trick, thanks Oct 14 08:42:12 Stskeeps: is there a more permanent solution? Oct 14 08:42:56 nop Oct 14 08:43:14 Stskeeps: maybe putting google's dns into the resolv.conf? Oct 14 08:44:15 there is also /scratchbox/sbin/sbox_sync script, which does the same and also copies host.conf Oct 14 08:47:21 hm Oct 14 08:47:29 why does Freenode refuse to identify me? Oct 14 08:47:46 netsplit in progress Oct 14 08:48:24 Stskeeps: what does that mean? Oct 14 08:48:34 as in the servers lost connection between eachother Oct 14 08:48:41 ouch Oct 14 08:49:05 sounds real bad Oct 14 08:49:09 nah, normal on irc Oct 14 08:49:47 * Venemo has never seem such a thing Oct 14 08:52:23 Venemo, haven't been on IRC long? Oct 14 08:52:25 :p Oct 14 08:52:26 you have not lived Oct 14 08:52:42 TermanaN900: only a few months Oct 14 08:53:29 there was a lot of splits in last couple months Oct 14 08:53:50 Morning, all Oct 14 08:54:09 morning Jaffa Oct 14 08:54:41 jacekowski: seems that I was lucky enough then Oct 14 08:55:19 10/07/#maemo.log:22:08 -!- Netsplit *.net <-> *.split quits: Lopi, lbt_away, albanc, Duckboot, Macer, AcTiVaTe, mardi, mrmoku, Wamanuz, carloscesa, (+11 more, use /NETSPLIT to show all of them) Oct 14 08:55:23 week ago Oct 14 08:55:47 09/29/#maemo.log:06:08 -!- Netsplit *.net <-> *.split quits: aziwoqpd Oct 14 08:55:53 09/28/#maemo.log:01:26 -!- Netsplit *.net <-> *.split quits: flux, mairas, thauta, ruskie, maswan, cyborg-one, derf, Passeli, inz, shpaq`, (+15 more, use /NETSPLIT to show all of them) Oct 14 08:56:02 at least once a week Oct 14 09:21:11 Jaffa, you noticed the twitter meego dual boot problem too I see. Oct 14 09:21:42 MohammadAG51: you there? Oct 14 09:22:22 Jaffa, feel free to explain Oct 14 09:22:32 What dhcp client does maemo use? I see neither dhcpcd nor dhclient. How do I just reapply for an IP from the cli? Oct 14 09:22:59 udhcpc Oct 14 09:23:07 ieatlint: thanks Oct 14 09:24:43 crashanddie, I'm referring to his tweet: @jaffa2: Sighing at all the "#N900 soon to get #MeeGo dual boot" posts. Missing so many points, it's not funny :-( Oct 14 09:24:54 mece, I know, I saw it Oct 14 09:25:06 crashanddie, which in turn refers to this: http://thenokiablog.com/2010/10/13/nokia-n900-pr13-dual-boot-meego/ Oct 14 09:25:11 the origianl post is fairly selfexplanatory. the conclusions people make about it though are quite erraneous Oct 14 09:25:36 or simplifying to say the least Oct 14 09:25:47 Myrtti, yep. The Nokia Blog blog post makes it bad. Harha's post was great. Oct 14 09:26:14 Stskeeps, congrats. Oct 14 09:26:15 I'm already facepalming due to the Finnish newsitem made based on it Oct 14 09:26:17 I thought we new this for a while. Oct 14 09:26:17 Myrtti, even MWKN is getting to the same conclusions, though Oct 14 09:26:19 Myrtti: .. Oct 14 09:26:32 MWKN: Devices: PR1.3 close, and will make dual-booting MeeGo development images & Maemo possible http://bit.ly/b5tRaG #maemo Oct 14 09:26:32 knew .. Oct 14 09:26:41 crashanddie: well, that's correct Oct 14 09:26:51 sortof Oct 14 09:27:14 I could have sworn we were talking about 1.3 including better dual booting support. Oct 14 09:27:15 well, what I read from the meego blog was "Booting Meego will be possible on N900, and phone calls kinda work thanks to open source driver" Oct 14 09:27:17 alterego, yeah, nothing is new, but the blog post makes things look like there's a finished meego for n900 coming in a week or so. Oct 14 09:27:32 do i need linux to develop for n900? Oct 14 09:27:37 Pillum, no Oct 14 09:27:40 Pillum: ni Oct 14 09:27:40 mece: oh, thass what you're talking about :) Oct 14 09:27:46 alterego, yes. Oct 14 09:27:54 mece: well, it wouldn't be fun if i didn't have a crisis to deal with on the first day of my 'new job' Oct 14 09:27:57 :P Oct 14 09:28:01 Meh, they!l always say that Oct 14 09:28:03 Stskeeps, new job? Oct 14 09:28:08 Stskeeps, new job? Oct 14 09:28:24 mece: well, that i'm now the official nokia n900 hardware adaptation maintainer Oct 14 09:28:34 Woo!!! Oct 14 09:28:40 Stskeeps, congratulations! Oct 14 09:28:41 Stskeeps, happy? Oct 14 09:28:57 seems like i still need linux to build libs Oct 14 09:29:02 Stskeeps, you may want to post a note that explains exactly what's what Oct 14 09:29:09 is there a new vm available? Oct 14 09:29:12 Stskeeps, you may even want to contact nokia blog so they can retract their statement Oct 14 09:29:38 Stskeeps: congrats :) Oct 14 09:29:40 crashanddie: harri's blog entry which is the source of this entire thing does exactly that.. Oct 14 09:29:45 STSkeeps .. congrat also from my side Oct 14 09:29:53 Myrtti: mece: crashanddie: Nokia Blog post isn't as bad as http://nokiaexperts.com/n900-meego-pr13/ Oct 14 09:30:17 Jaffa, yeah, sure, but well, poor journalism and hype management, eh. Oct 14 09:30:17 (for the critics: no, it's not nokia abandoning meego on n900, just technical leadership - resources and team stays the same as well as goals) Oct 14 09:30:28 crashanddie: MWKN isn't jumping to the same conclusions, I'm just going to note that it means being able to test MeeGo without having to have a donor PC to flash the kernel over USB as a one-time operation. Oct 14 09:30:56 Jaffa, well that one doesn't seem to contain any information whatsoever. Oct 14 09:31:21 Stskeeps: Is dual boot easier cos of PR1.3 sharing the same kernel or something entirely different? Oct 14 09:31:58 Jaffa, PR1.3 will install a midget on every N900, who will automagically translate everything Oct 14 09:32:17 Nokia is betting a lot on the chinese midget production, we'll see what happens. Oct 14 09:32:25 anyone: how can i run ./configure and make on windows with n900 build infos? so i do need linxu or what= Oct 14 09:32:40 Pillum, please read the developer documentation Oct 14 09:32:49 Pillum, look at MADDE, or whatever the name is Oct 14 09:32:54 yeah Oct 14 09:32:59 but MADDE doesnt have sh Oct 14 09:33:04 to run bash scripts Oct 14 09:33:39 mece: The whole series of "OMG! Does this means the N900 is getzing teh meeeegoes?" Oct 14 09:33:45 Annoys the hell out of me. Oct 14 09:33:51 Jaffa, ditto Oct 14 09:33:55 And I'm not Stskeeps who's going to have to deal with the expectation management Oct 14 09:34:24 Stskeeps, you need to start tweeting moar :) Oct 14 09:34:55 oh it does Oct 14 09:34:57 sorry Oct 14 09:35:15 Pillum, no problem, you're welcome Oct 14 09:35:38 Pillum, I hear madde covers it all, but I've never really gotten into it. Found it easier to run a linux distro in virtualbox on my work computer (which is windows) Oct 14 09:37:56 Is there a new maemo/meego phone in the pipelines? Oct 14 09:38:29 because Im giving away my android phone which I need to replace and I'd really like more control over my phone Oct 14 09:38:41 then stay with Android, LOL Oct 14 09:38:47 nb: I had the n800/n810 before that Oct 14 09:38:57 seriously? Oct 14 09:39:11 kkal, why not a N900? Oct 14 09:39:12 well, dunno about MeeGo, but Maemo is probably more closed source than Android. Oct 14 09:39:15 methinks. Oct 14 09:39:26 i don't think Oct 14 09:39:34 we knew that already. Oct 14 09:39:37 mece: is there a full setup linux vm available somewhere in the internet? seems like I need some packages from the fremantle(-SDK) repo to build it correctly Oct 14 09:39:50 well the n900 is old in comparison with the newer android phones Oct 14 09:40:17 Pillum: "madde apt-get install" should work, AIUI Oct 14 09:40:18 mece, yeah virtualbox route works quite nicely apart from UI stuff being really slow Oct 14 09:40:24 crashanddie, good Oct 14 09:40:27 Pillum, I use fremantle sdk :) Oct 14 09:40:32 but I miss thigns like mplayer on my phone Oct 14 09:40:35 *things Oct 14 09:40:43 though I'd just run Linux natively but Thinkpad T410's WLAN just won't work properly so haven't got much choice Oct 14 09:40:56 fremantle sdk? Oct 14 09:41:09 Jaffa: the statement comes from the fact PR1.3 has kexec capability. however, that's not the direction we're going for meego as it is a bit unstable Oct 14 09:41:25 Jaffa: we're going for the u-boot solution as it's simply more practical Oct 14 09:41:41 kkal, there's no new phone out yet. If you can get a cheap n900 it's totally worth it (if you want a linux device that is) Oct 14 09:41:55 mece: off ebay? Oct 14 09:42:13 kkal, some companies seem to sell them cheap too I hear. Haven't been looking lately. Oct 14 09:42:55 so there shall be no n1000 I guess Oct 14 09:42:56 kkal, but if/when a meego phone is announced I'm guessing the n900 price will drop. Then I moght be getting another one. And maybe a third :) Oct 14 09:42:58 Jaffa: there is no madde exec on my MADDE installation (ver 0.7.22 from NokiaQTSDK) Oct 14 09:43:32 n9000 Oct 14 09:44:45 * peb_ is gone. Gone since Thu Oct 14 11:28:00 2010 Oct 14 09:44:58 peb_, please deactivate your away script Oct 14 09:45:19 http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p=768020&postcount=12 have to add it manually Oct 14 09:45:30 crashanddie .. sorry, but I thought it's already gone (deactivated). Oct 14 09:45:44 [11:42:08] * peb_ is gone. Gone since Thu Oct 14 11:28:00 2010 Oct 14 09:47:33 Hi! Is git available on fremantle? Oct 14 09:47:55 should be Oct 14 09:48:11 -testing or -devel? Oct 14 09:48:35 -devel Oct 14 09:48:45 crashanddie: thanks. Oct 14 09:51:17 It's funny how comic-widget is still the app I use the most on my phone. It's sad that I wrote it so badly that it would require a complete(ish) rewrite to be extras ready. Oct 14 09:56:51 I think I'll stick with android for now. Maybe in a couple of years I'll find a nice meego phone waiting for me Oct 14 09:56:56 thanks Oct 14 09:56:59 crashanddie: wait, under what name is git listed in -devel? Oct 14 09:57:43 ebzzry: 'git' :) Oct 14 09:58:03 ebzzry: There's both git & git-core, see recent post to maemo-developers Oct 14 09:58:09 its not in the normal applications list you need to use fapman and then the advanced view or apt-get Oct 14 09:58:23 ebzzry: http://lists.maemo.org/pipermail/maemo-developers/2010-October/027723.html Oct 14 09:58:47 git-core is the proper one Jaffa, ebzzry Oct 14 09:58:48 http://maemo.org/packages/view/git-core/ Oct 14 09:59:04 git should be a metapackage. Oct 14 09:59:07 but it isn't Oct 14 09:59:30 cehteh: How do I enable this advanced view? Oct 14 09:59:55 ebzzry, if you're going to use git, you would be in x-term anyway, am I right? Oct 14 10:00:12 ebzzry, so why not go xterm and do root; apt-get install git-core Oct 14 10:00:34 Ok, got a question for anyone that might know: I have a complete tar archive of my N900's rootfs. I extracted it to a directory on my desktop, and followed this: http://mer-project.blogspot.com/2010/01/making-flashable-rootfss-for-n900.html Oct 14 10:01:00 Everything is successful, but it won't boot. at all. Any idea what I might be doing wrong? Oct 14 10:01:34 i think there is yet another sort of flash where nolo resides Oct 14 10:01:40 nolo == n900's bootloader Oct 14 10:02:04 if that isn't "working" you can have 10 rootfs it won't boot Oct 14 10:02:39 Well, that shouldn't have changed; I had a working system, reflashed the rootfs with my own image of the system(which should end up being identical), and it doesn't work. Oct 14 10:02:56 Is there any permissions issues that might affect it? Oct 14 10:03:12 Meanwhile, I'll try reflashing the nolo, just in case Oct 14 10:03:47 I am installing latest ovi suite under winxp. At same time I am wondering will nokia ever learn how to make UI Oct 14 10:03:58 Hi Oct 14 10:05:12 I am new to maemo platform and would like to contribute on the testing. Browsed through maemo contribution webpages .. but seems there are numerous mailing lists and IRC channels Oct 14 10:05:27 can anyone guide me from where should I start ? Oct 14 10:05:36 RobbieThe1st: i am not sure of how "flashing" works in detail, but having to use a flasher indicates to me there is more stuff going on than just plain copying Oct 14 10:06:05 Hm... Does anyone know if the "rootfs.jffs2" image in the N900 PR1.2 image is actually a ubifs image(as I've heard), or a jffs2 image? Oct 14 10:06:05 moorelee_, this is the main IRC channel, there's a handful of other channels, but they're mostly dead (not much happening) Oct 14 10:06:24 moorelee_, after that, it really depends what exactly you're trying to achieve/offer. Oct 14 10:06:26 RobbieThe1st: it's ubifs Oct 14 10:06:30 RobbieThe1st: i think you could find out by analyzing it's first bytes Oct 14 10:06:39 its** Oct 14 10:06:43 there it should be indicated.... ohhh, or ask Stskeeps ^^ Oct 14 10:06:56 Well, that solves that Oct 14 10:07:24 Ok, Stskeeps, question for you: http://mer-project.blogspot.com/2010/01/making-flashable-rootfss-for-n900.html Would this work? Oct 14 10:07:30 yes, that's my post Oct 14 10:07:30 :P Oct 14 10:07:40 crashanddie : hmm ... if I wanted to start particularly on testing, is there some place where I should start ? Oct 14 10:09:04 Ok, perfect. Any idea what I'm doing wrong then? I have a tar'd rootfs image, I extract it to a folder and then follow those instructions. Everything works successfully, image comes out ~140mb in size. It flashes... But won't boot at all. Oct 14 10:10:32 RobbieThe1st: 1) use gnu tar, 2) tar --numeric-owner -pzcf Oct 14 10:12:45 Well, 1's already being done. Any way to "salvage" an image made with just "gtar cf"? Oct 14 10:13:00 Anyone looked at doing the 'Send to Phone' Android client for Maemo? http://droid-2.net/?p=447 Oct 14 10:13:04 ~curse nokia for map loader/updater and rest of crap for windows Oct 14 10:13:05 May the fleas of a thousand camels infest your most sensitive regions, nokia for map loader/updater and rest of crap for windows ! Oct 14 10:14:28 Ah well, lets see... Oct 14 10:14:54 Source for client: http://code.google.com/p/chrometophone/source/browse/#svn/trunk/android/src/com/google/android/apps/chrometophone# Oct 14 10:17:49 is there a way to interface Scratchbox and Qt Creator? Oct 14 10:18:48 Venemo: QT Creator can contain maemo qt sdk so you will not have to use sbox Oct 14 10:18:58 hrw: that I know Oct 14 10:19:17 ~vomit on nokia windows tools Oct 14 10:19:36 hrw: unfortunately there is no (official) way to install third party libraries into MADDE (what the Qt SDK uses) Oct 14 10:19:59 but I can easily install libraries into Scratchbox Oct 14 10:20:02 Nokia should fire all designers which touched mswindows tools (ovi suite, map loader) Oct 14 10:20:18 Yea, very true Oct 14 10:20:30 so (when I'm on Linux) I'd prefer to use Qt Creator with Scratchbox, if possible Oct 14 10:20:31 I still haven't managed to get OVI suite 2.2 to work with N900 Oct 14 10:20:32 moo Oct 14 10:20:37 I wonder if it got tested at all Oct 14 10:20:46 ~moo Oct 14 10:20:46 * infobot mooooooooo! I am cow, hear me moo, I weigh twice as much as you. I am cow, eating grass, methane gas comes out my ass Oct 14 10:20:47 jarkkom, how about 3.X version? Oct 14 10:20:50 and then another batch of outsourced coders from chennai would step in Oct 14 10:20:52 jarkkom: not at all, I bet Oct 14 10:21:14 DocScrutinizer: this was LoL Oct 14 10:21:18 To be fair, the reason I ended up getting my first Nokia computer, a N770.. was because it has proper Linux support and good old USB mass storage support, unlike *certain* devices these days.... <_< Oct 14 10:21:21 jarkkom, never mind.. :) mixed version numbers Oct 14 10:21:33 Surfa, yeah I thought you were talking about some beta version Oct 14 10:22:14 my N800 doesn't boot anymore :-< Oct 14 10:22:35 Myrtti: what happened to it? Oct 14 10:22:58 what else does it, then? Oct 14 10:23:02 jarkkom, sorry.. but my 2.2 seems to work very well Oct 14 10:23:15 left it alone for half a year or so in my luggage Oct 14 10:23:31 now when I put in on the charger Nokia logo flashes on and off for a while Oct 14 10:23:53 battery killed Oct 14 10:23:55 Myrtti: replace battery? Oct 14 10:23:59 yea Oct 14 10:24:21 hrw: yeah, I've already got a new one... it just happens to be 1000 miles away... Oct 14 10:24:24 oh well Oct 14 10:24:47 Myrtti: visit nearest gsm shop? Oct 14 10:25:13 not such a hurry to replace it that I'd need a new one Oct 14 10:25:26 I just wanted to use it to play music while in bath last night Oct 14 10:25:40 and perhaps IRC Oct 14 10:26:27 Quick question: Whats "CMT" with regards to the N900 Oct 14 10:26:42 the modem Oct 14 10:27:03 Thanks Oct 14 10:27:10 today's lesson: never leave battery in device while stashing away for months. keep batteries in a cool and dry place. Recharge batteries every 3 months Oct 14 10:27:18 or just: Oct 14 10:27:23 ~bateryfaq Oct 14 10:27:26 ~batteryfaq Oct 14 10:27:27 i guess batteryfaq is http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Battery_Questions_and_Answers Oct 14 10:27:46 Actually, I've found the best way to keep Li-on batterys is in the fridge or freezer Oct 14 10:28:03 You probably want to place it in a baggy first, but it does work fine Oct 14 10:28:46 NEVER keep LiIon in a freezer! Oct 14 10:28:49 ~2119 Oct 14 10:28:49 The key words "MUST", "MUST NOT", "REQUIRED", "SHALL", "SHALL NOT", "SHOULD", "SHOULD NOT", "RECOMMENDED", "MAY", and "OPTIONAL" in this document are to be interpreted as described in RFC 2119. Oct 14 10:29:07 err, ok Oct 14 10:29:13 you mean must not :D Oct 14 10:29:20 you MUST NOT keep LiIon in a freezer! Oct 14 10:29:21 DocScrutinizer: just out of curiosity, why not? Oct 14 10:29:25 Nah, I looked it up. A freezer's somewhere around 32F, or the freezing point of water. Oct 14 10:29:48 It needs to be significantly colder than that to actually freeze anything related to the battery itself Oct 14 10:30:01 LiIon severely suffers on storage temps <0°C Oct 14 10:30:15 Source? Oct 14 10:30:24 ~joerg Oct 14 10:30:25 i heard joerg is a HW-developer and engineer of Openmoko, usually known as DocScrutinizer Oct 14 10:30:42 ~batteryfaq Oct 14 10:30:43 i heard batteryfaq is http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Battery_Questions_and_Answers Oct 14 10:31:57 where in that document does it say anything about low temperatures? Oct 14 10:32:39 DocScrutinizer: I believe you, but http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Battery_Questions_and_Answers#Temperature doesn't say anything about cold Oct 14 10:32:39 Everything I've seen talks about -operation- down to 0C Oct 14 10:33:44 also, while not a definitve source: http://www.li-ion-battery.com/Discharging_temperature.htm Oct 14 10:34:20 well, according to several reports and recommendations it seems highly advisable to store at 5..10°C, in a plastic bag, with some technical dryer knows as silicagel Oct 14 10:34:25 hello Oct 14 10:34:57 Yes, perhaps. But -what will go wrong if I store it below that temp-? Oct 14 10:35:39 I have a question... Oct 14 10:36:03 someone install apache deb package in maemo? Oct 14 10:36:23 mie_mode, i have a question... Oct 14 10:36:35 have you tried to google for "maemo apache" Oct 14 10:36:45 To be honest though, I've tried it. I kept a whole box of scavenged phone batteries(from a recycle box) in the freezer for around a year. I needed one for an MP3 player I had, took it out, ripped the casing off it and hooked it up to the original battery's contact strip. Worked better than the old battery for quite a while, Oct 14 10:38:35 omg Oct 14 10:38:45 And, yea, soldering on the old temp/safety chip board probably wasn't the safest move. But it worked, and didn't cost me a cent. Oct 14 10:39:19 i want to know about stable....or problems in working Oct 14 10:40:09 mie_mode, well now you know its there, you can find out more and dig deeper :) Oct 14 10:40:41 well, battery life probably wont be great... Oct 14 10:40:42 RobbieThe1st: li-ion cell storage temps seem to universally be above the lowest temp found in a freezer Oct 14 10:40:44 Curious, vodafone haven't charged me extra for the 47G of mobile data transfer I've done this month Oct 14 10:40:55 alterego: where are you? Oct 14 10:40:59 Even though they apparently changed my contract to 500M total Oct 14 10:41:01 uk Oct 14 10:41:13 For every 500 I go over the 500 cap they charge me 5 quid Oct 14 10:41:18 Also - 47G is quite a lot Oct 14 10:41:22 Or so they said last month Oct 14 10:42:02 If I was a phone company, I'd only be enforcing against people that caused congestion. Oct 14 10:42:18 RobbieThe1st: there are several indications you must neither charge nor discharge LiIon/LiPo under a certain minimum temp, and don't you think if storing @ -15°C was best for the cells, then the cell manufs like Hitachi would tell OEMs like Openmoko, so we could store our 1000s of batteries correctly? Oct 14 10:42:27 I live in a rural area where I use most of my data Oct 14 10:42:48 So I don't think I'm really causing any untoward issues for anyone. Oct 14 10:42:50 DocScrutinizer: Do they say you can't? Oct 14 10:42:56 nope Oct 14 10:43:04 DocScrutinizer: I.E. the storage temp is within ghtat range. Oct 14 10:43:06 And I've told them when their base stations have gone down, not that they give a shit I'd imagine. Oct 14 10:43:11 but recommendations are 5..10°C Oct 14 10:43:16 Yes, I agree with not using it below a certain temperature. However, when you are storing something, you generally aren't using it, right? Oct 14 10:43:37 RobbieThe1st: Speaking personally. I store mine at -20C, and have had no issues. Oct 14 10:43:52 alterego: you mean 500 GB? Oct 14 10:44:01 -20C or 20C? Oct 14 10:44:16 -20 Oct 14 10:44:18 freezer Oct 14 10:44:51 I would suggest you reduce thermal cycles for assembled batteries. Oct 14 10:44:52 DocScrutinizer: what about a plain fridger instead of a freezer? Oct 14 10:44:53 stricly not recommended Oct 14 10:45:05 Also, place in a sealed bag with no air in before freezing. Oct 14 10:45:17 fridge is fine, and recommended. Oct 14 10:45:17 0..18°C seems ok Oct 14 10:45:25 In any case. Oct 14 10:45:26 Yea, you don't want condensation on the terminals Oct 14 10:45:39 Discharging to 40% and storing in a cool place is just fine for a year. Oct 14 10:46:22 also there the recommendations are different. Other manufs say 75% Oct 14 10:46:34 Also, plastic gets (more) brittle at such low temps; I ended up chipping a laptop battery's case when it fell out of the freezer. Didn't hurt the battery though; I ended up using it for a good year until I upgraded... Oct 14 10:46:40 probably everything between 15 and 85% is ok Oct 14 10:46:40 40% is probably not insane. Oct 14 10:46:56 it's thehighest voltages that cause degradation. Oct 14 10:47:04 yes Oct 14 10:47:22 so, make that: discharge to <4.0v Oct 14 10:47:38 Well, seems to me that: A, higher voltages = more degredation, and B, if it runs completely down, it will stop working permanately. Oct 14 10:47:44 and >3V7 Oct 14 10:47:55 maybe 3V6 Oct 14 10:48:06 Keeping it at 1% may last it the longest, but if it gets below a certain threshold, it won't charge any more. Oct 14 10:48:26 yes Oct 14 10:49:22 though I'm sure 10% isn't worse than 1%, maybe better Oct 14 10:49:51 Who knows Oct 14 10:51:34 cell manufs and masterminds of LiIon anyway recommend 40%..75% Oct 14 10:52:14 cell manufs even ship cells precharged to >80% Oct 14 10:52:40 they wouldn't do that if it would deteriorate their product Oct 14 10:53:40 as they know the OEMs will keep a batch of 5000 in shelf for quite a while, and then they are in store shelf in product box for another while Oct 14 10:53:43 hello world Oct 14 10:54:03 hello pole Oct 14 10:55:49 I've written a little script in python that uses urllib to retrieve a webpage, and extract soem informations of it using regexp and stuff, the aim is to display the result in the "desktop command execution widget" Oct 14 10:55:59 Well, I think of it this way: Its better a little degradation which the consumer won't notice, than a shot battery which -will- be noticed Oct 14 10:56:21 MrPingouin: sounds really useful Oct 14 10:56:24 the problem is : when the phone is not connected to data, the app freezes Oct 14 10:56:44 MrPingouin: Check the "timeout" option Oct 14 10:56:46 and I almost have to "killall hildon-home" or whatever Oct 14 10:56:55 there's a timeout for Python's URLlib request Oct 14 10:57:02 allright, thanks a lot Oct 14 10:58:09 On the other hand, if its availaible, cURL's the absolute -best- http grabber software I've seen. Both in PHP and CLI Oct 14 10:59:23 RobbieThe1st: the consumer *will* notice, and esp the OEM will notice. The cell manufacturers will do everything to ship a top quality product to OEM, and they don't hesitate to recommend storage temperatures like -30..-32° and biweekly special treatment if they think it's needed to keep quality of their product on the highest level possible Oct 14 10:59:37 they don't though Oct 14 11:00:57 Huh. Anyway... Oct 14 11:01:51 Just curious here, and completely off topic, but is there any proper way to add a file by filename to the built-in media player's now-playing list? Oct 14 11:02:06 It's the one thing I miss compared to my old, slow N770 Oct 14 11:02:14 click in filemanager? Oct 14 11:02:37 or use that plugin... errr the name I forgot another time Oct 14 11:02:55 Append to the above: Without removing the current playlist/etc from now playing Oct 14 11:03:12 hmm, the plugin will do Oct 14 11:03:26 Hm, let me know if you remember Oct 14 11:03:59 check chan log, it mentioned it yesterday or 2 days ago Oct 14 11:05:00 I mentioned it... Oct 14 11:05:23 mafw-grilo-source plugin for fremantle media player Oct 14 11:05:27 TY Oct 14 11:05:36 grilo, yes Oct 14 11:07:03 Now, if I can manage to get my own - experimental - backupmenu to work again so I can get my N900 functional... Oct 14 11:07:47 RobbieThe1st: it's a bit non-intuitive to use, as it has a menu item in mediaplayer's root window, where you in a second step use the file plugin Oct 14 11:08:26 Well, it can't be worse than playing each track for 30 seconds, then adding it from the "recently played" list Oct 14 11:09:32 RobbieThe1st: it works perfectly, thanks a lot Oct 14 11:09:41 RobbieThe1st: backupmenu? you are aware there were several guys really almost bricking their device by messing with writing to NAND/ubifs raw device while not exactly understanding the pitfalls Oct 14 11:09:56 Yea... Oct 14 11:10:14 Which is what I'm trying to fix here Oct 14 11:10:39 \o/ Oct 14 11:11:32 Thing is, the people for whom it works -like- it as it is and don't want to "upgrade" to a version that won't let them use the Nokia flasher to flash. The others seem to be kind of skittish and waiting for it to be tested Oct 14 11:11:55 So, I'm slightly stuck here. I'm trying to improve the overall product, with no testers. Oct 14 11:12:13 (and not knowing much about what I'm doing here) Oct 14 11:12:33 werner almesberger (wpwrak) and andy green, the 2 bootloader and system sw wizards of OM, really hate NAND for the complicated bad blocks management and whatnot Oct 14 11:12:40 well, have a good day people Oct 14 11:13:51 To be honest, I was surprised that the bad blocks would even be visible at the filesystem level; I thought that - like HDs and flash drives - it would be dealt with on-chip, and DD wouldn't even see the badblocks Oct 14 11:15:21 ~botsnack Oct 14 11:15:22 thanks, Venemo Oct 14 11:15:29 RobbieThe1st: that's the exact diff between MMC and NAND Oct 14 11:15:30 you're welcome infobot Oct 14 11:15:49 Yea, I'm finding that out. Oct 14 11:16:47 MMC has a controller that does hidden bad block management, page erase, and whatnot - NAND does *not* have such a controller, so the main system has full control and the responsibility Oct 14 11:17:48 that's what jffs2 and ubifs etc are all about Oct 14 11:21:20 so i've learnt that maemo5 pr 1.2 lacks libqtlocation from qt mobility, but the sdk includes it :( Oct 14 11:21:57 so i had the fortunate experience to write some software, some basic testing with the sdk, upload it, and enjoy a missing lib error Oct 14 11:22:10 :-S Oct 14 11:22:28 ship the lib with your pkg? Oct 14 11:22:43 hah, or just wait a month for pr1.3 :P Oct 14 11:22:46 will see Oct 14 11:23:23 i could also probably drop it back down to the c lib for maemo, but have been trying not to mix and match qt with c libs, heh Oct 14 11:24:02 nah, that's insane. If the 1.2 SDK has that lib, then it ought also be awailable from repo to install to N900 as a dependency Oct 14 11:24:09 isnt the qtlocation in repos? pretty sure i did some testing with it in PR1.2 Oct 14 11:24:31 i did a basic check looking for it, and didn't see... will recheck Oct 14 11:24:58 ieatlint: are you sure it's not just a missing dependency declaration in your package? Oct 14 11:25:41 no, am checking if there is a qtlocation lib that's in the repos and non-standard now Oct 14 11:25:58 Just out of curiosity, do you guys think anyone'd be interested in a "find best OC" script that would - automatically - test each speed/voltage profile for stability, drop the voltage until it crashes, then up it by two or three, thereby finding the optimum settings for a particular N900 Oct 14 11:26:20 Overclocking is unfortunately more than stability. Oct 14 11:26:26 There is the potential of damage. Oct 14 11:26:31 Of course - some may be interested. Oct 14 11:26:49 Yea, Oct 14 11:27:33 if you can keep buying more n900s, go ahead Oct 14 11:27:47 Now, while on the forums the consensus is that "OCing may cause damage", no one yet has come forward having actually broken one yet... Oct 14 11:27:58 yes they did Oct 14 11:28:02 Who> Oct 14 11:28:02 lot of people Oct 14 11:28:08 ? Oct 14 11:28:11 Show me. Oct 14 11:28:44 I know a lot of people have tried a profile, had it not work and crash, but no -permanent- damage, last I heard. Oct 14 11:28:56 * ShadowJK vaguely recalls seeing threads on the forums with people with broken OCd N900s.. Oct 14 11:29:00 The question is - how many people would say 'I broke my n900' vs 'I returned it because it became unstable. Oct 14 11:30:05 Well, heck, even that - You'd expect a lot people claiming that it didn't work.. All I've seen is someone claiming that by OCing they broke the charging circuit and or battery... Not likely. Oct 14 11:30:09 tell RobbieThe1st about omap-oc Oct 14 11:30:31 ~tell RobbieThe1st about omap-oc Oct 14 11:30:44 Note: I'm taking all my "real-world" data from: http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=51811 Oct 14 11:31:12 ~overclocking Oct 14 11:31:13 "OK, listen up. This is your CPU." apt drops the CPU into a hot frying pan. "This is your CPU on overclocking. Any questions?" Oct 14 11:31:22 ~tmo Oct 14 11:31:22 hmm... tmo is http://talk.maemo.org, or too much off-topic Oct 14 11:33:25 Thing is, I've heard several people speaking that same line.. OC wiki etc. Yet, people have had their N900's OC'd for around as long as they have had their devices haven't killed them yet, so... Oct 14 11:33:29 yeah, i can't find any source for the missing library in the main repo, extras repo or devel repo Oct 14 11:33:38 there's "liblocation" which provides the c stuff Oct 14 11:33:53 and bug reports can be found by google talking about issues compiling libqtlocation for maemo5 Oct 14 11:35:21 also, damn repository.maemo.org and it's robots.txt Oct 14 11:35:46 and damn my grammar error... s/it's/its/ Oct 14 11:36:03 But, either way, it doesn't matter. Until we see some real-world destruction, its sort of a moot point, which was why I've asked Oct 14 11:36:04 RobbieThe1st: there are reports from people experiencing instabilities or even frying their battery by overclocking, also permanent instabilities, and then those stories suddenly stall - nobody will stand up and tell "hooray I didn't listen to the warnings and now I finally achieved to fry my CPU to a state where every 2nd boot segfaults". No those users blush and shut up Oct 14 11:36:05 and anyone who tries to tell me that technically that wasn't a grammar error Oct 14 11:37:13 ~nuke repository.maemo.org and its robots.txt Oct 14 11:37:14 * infobot prepares 100 missle silos, and targets them at repository.maemo.org and its robots.txt ... B☢☢M! Oct 14 11:37:30 ieatlint: I hope you're happy now Oct 14 11:38:00 i'm too cynical to ever be happy Oct 14 11:38:07 so i just try to lower the bar, by making others unhappy Oct 14 11:38:10 That's sort of fair, though as a counterpoint I'd have to bring up the several people with instability with stock clocks and voltages; no "custom" OC involved. Bumping the voltage a tad'd probably help there. Oct 14 11:40:19 RobbieThe1st: go on, go on. I'm sure you'll find a better concept in your spare time, than those hundereds of TI and Nokia engineers during their daywork which is exactly dealing with that stuff and knowing every little bit about it Oct 14 11:40:35 Nah, I have no doubt that it'll eventually break things. Oct 14 11:41:02 crashanddie: please kick me! Oct 14 11:41:37 Realistically though, it all comes down to how long a particular chip'll last at specific settings, vs how long people will end up keeping their devices. Also a major factor is how long it actually stays at full speed. Oct 14 11:41:59 orly?! Oct 14 11:42:01 aha, i may have actually found the lib... "libqtm-location", so perhaps disregard my aimless complaining as per usual Oct 14 11:45:13 RobbieThe1st: sorry I have to use such clear language, but when you said above "that would - automatically - test each speed/voltage profile for stability," you clearly absolutely diqualified yourself for the task, due to obvious lack of insight and knowledge Oct 14 11:45:51 you CAN NOT test for stability in a way you imply here Oct 14 11:46:21 stbility tests are much more complex than you seem to think Oct 14 11:46:55 and can not be done on a single device in a finite time that would make such a script useful in any way Oct 14 11:46:59 Think: Shell script with a loop. It uses the kernel-config to lock a specific voltage/speed combo. Then plays a short video through mplayer. Then drops it one volt, repeat. Once the N900 crashes, you know its below the limit. Up it by two or three, and you'll be pretty close Oct 14 11:47:08 BS Oct 14 11:47:09 *voltage # not volt Oct 14 11:47:32 mere utter BS Oct 14 11:47:57 Hey, its what I did. Either it would crash immediately after setting the setting, within a minute of loading the video, or I'd see "decoding errors" in the mplayer console Oct 14 11:48:01 Considering the forum is full of people complaining everything except microb is stable when they oc... Oct 14 11:48:37 After bumping all voltage numbers by three from whatever was the minimum settings I found, I haven't had a crash in over a month Oct 14 11:49:08 Not with frigging -runescape- tying up 100% of the cpu(at 950mhz), not with mplayer, and not with microB. Oct 14 11:49:36 snakeoil Oct 14 11:49:57 So, sure, it may not be perfect, and you might occasionally need to bump things a little more, but its probably pretty close. Oct 14 11:49:57 well, the end result appears to be that he has a device he's more happy with. win win, no?-) Oct 14 11:50:08 http://www.theregister.co.uk/2010/10/14/nokia_dilbert/ Oct 14 11:50:16 Isn't that the whole idea behind OCing anyway? Oct 14 11:50:17 lalalalalalala *covers ears* lalalalalalala Oct 14 11:58:25 Aanyway, good. I've got to get off now, but at least I was able to restore my N900 to working condition using my latest tar backup. And now I know what to do to make future tar backups work right when extracted on your desktop. Oct 14 12:03:07 * DocScrutinizer51 remarks that a lot of people were successfull in restoring an image of their own NAND with their own unique bad block pattern. This regularly fails when restoring to another device or to an aged NAND that has just one more bad block than at the time of saving the image Oct 14 12:04:20 * DocScrutinizer51 sighs loud and long Oct 14 12:04:54 DocScrutinizer51: yeah, that's why you shouldn't do that Oct 14 12:05:32 OC, NAND img restore, sure finally somebody wrapped his head around all that (/sarcasm) Oct 14 12:06:59 docscrutinizer: sorry, was on my lunch break, do you still need some ass whooping? Oct 14 12:07:00 lemme think if I can find another few interesting topics for our "experts" Oct 14 12:07:20 no thanks. damage done Oct 14 12:08:55 maybe robbi can also improve our borked cell charging, and fix the borked cellmo FW Oct 14 12:09:03 DocScrutinizer51, always fails for me Oct 14 12:17:58 [2010-10-14 13:07:11] RobbieThe1st: backupmenu? you are aware there were several guys really almost bricking their device by messing with writing to NAND/ubifs raw device while not exactly understanding the pitfalls Oct 14 12:17:59 [2010-10-14 13:07:27] Yea... Oct 14 12:18:09 :-S Oct 14 12:19:55 Doc: They just never listen... Oct 14 12:20:05 I need to improve my communicative skills. like "never ask if he's suffering from xy, nobody ever seems to admit. Most even donno" Oct 14 12:20:56 you can't brick device that way Oct 14 12:21:08 coldflash can still recover it Oct 14 12:21:11 not *really*, but almost Oct 14 12:22:09 for yet unknown reasons NOLO seems unable to recover from a messed up bad black management on NAND. Oct 14 12:23:05 while you'd think NOLO should do a nand-erase on flashing, MohammadAG51 had to do this explicitly, to recover from raw write to mtd Oct 14 12:23:44 s/black/block/ Oct 14 12:23:57 it didn't even start flashing Oct 14 12:24:11 yeah it checks crc of these blocks Oct 14 12:24:17 s/crc/checksum/ Oct 14 12:24:18 jacekowski meant: yeah it checks checksum of these blocks Oct 14 12:24:31 MohammadAG51: how is your arabic? Oct 14 12:24:41 eggcelent Oct 14 12:24:50 lol Oct 14 12:24:55 it's my first language lol Oct 14 12:25:01 eggSell Oct 14 12:25:17 a popular M$ crap Oct 14 12:25:45 well, you live in israel so i wasn't sure Oct 14 12:26:14 * MohammadAG51 doesn't know a lot of hebrew Oct 14 12:38:10 timeless: jacekowski: MohammadAG51: do you think we could explain the problem to Jaffa in a way so council finally puts a "***DEPRECATED***" tag to backup-menu in repo? Oct 14 12:39:51 docscrutinizer: "This app will kill devices." Oct 14 12:41:07 like ->" In this version it is ***DEPRECATED*** and most likely will kill your device. DO NOT mess with mtd unless you understand *exactly* what's going on in ubifs and NAND bad block management" Oct 14 12:42:16 spontaneous lithium fusion? Oct 14 12:42:44 DocScrutinizer: See maemo-community; why you picking on me? :-p None of you seemed to have chimed in on the thread, so go there - do it properly. Oct 14 12:42:59 "Rationale: NAND bad blocks are individual for every single device, and also may change over time. So what works for you today, will not work for anybody else, nor for you tomorrow" Oct 14 12:45:22 "if it fails, you *are in serious trouble* as even reflashing from scratch doesn't work anymore" Oct 14 12:45:24 DocScrutinizer: There's no comment against the package either, AFAICT - where you could add that warning yourself: http://maemo.org/packages/package_instance/view/fremantle_extras-devel_free_armel/backupmenu/0.32-1/ Oct 14 12:46:14 I'm not up to issue such warning, as I never tested the package Oct 14 12:46:55 somebody with higher authority has to aggregate and evaluate out concerns, and put a proper comment there Oct 14 12:47:11 s/out/our/ Oct 14 12:47:11 DocScrutinizer meant: somebody with higher authority has to aggregate and evaluate our concerns, and put a proper comment there Oct 14 12:49:12 Is there any way to add a bi-weekly event in the calendar? Oct 14 12:49:40 lol Oct 14 12:49:57 use alarmed ;-D Oct 14 12:50:45 I was more meaning an app of some form. Oh well. Oct 14 12:50:48 or edit the database directly, I guess on lowest level you can have arbitrary intervals (if the db design isn't completely braindamaged) Oct 14 12:51:49 ummm, alarmed *is* an app Oct 14 12:52:01 a nice one, I must add Oct 14 12:52:10 I mean to add calendar entried Oct 14 12:52:11 s Oct 14 12:52:31 :nod: Oct 14 12:53:19 well, bviously calendar doesn't offer biweekly Oct 14 12:54:46 nor some other quite useful definitions, like "last of every month" etc Oct 14 12:54:52 speedevil, I did bi-weeklies via google calendar, but I suppose that doesn't work for everyone ;) Oct 14 12:55:27 flux: and, do they work on maemo calendar as supposed, even without weekly syncs to google? Oct 14 12:55:29 it should have "enter repetition expression here" field ;) Oct 14 12:56:29 docscrutinizer, well, atleast I have such events for five years ahead Oct 14 12:56:37 addressbook and calendar are rudimentary, and Nokia keeps it all closed source, to "differentiate" to the worse Oct 14 12:56:51 docscrutinizer, I haven't tried removing one for the phone, that will it provide me with a choice to remove them all Oct 14 12:57:46 actually I have them up to 2037, which is as far the calendar will jump.. Oct 14 12:57:51 flux: the question is whether it's a recurring single event, or just a huge bunch of genereated single events Oct 14 12:58:17 docscrutinizer, it's difficult to tell. from end-user perspective, if works, though. Oct 14 12:58:25 flux: you might edit one of those in 2012 and see if all get altered Oct 14 12:59:07 docscrutinizer, I don't want to edit it for the chance it might not work ;) Oct 14 12:59:16 :-D Oct 14 12:59:34 maybe you might create a test event for that purpose? Oct 14 13:00:12 sorry I got no google calendar otherwise I'd test myself Oct 14 13:03:03 DocScrutinizer, Output 5V, 1.0A MAX Oct 14 13:03:11 that reminds me... My online-banking had bimonthly recurring money transfers once. Then they removed that option, and I wasn't able to edit that particular order anymore :-D Oct 14 13:03:13 got a new adapter Oct 14 13:03:23 some time it even made their server crash Oct 14 13:03:38 MohammadAG51: eh? Oct 14 13:03:49 DocScrutinizer, I can't figure out how to use it with a hub though, it outputs power to a usb port Oct 14 13:03:56 aah Oct 14 13:04:08 DocScrutinizer, got rid of the retarded adapter that pushed 7V when set to 3 Oct 14 13:04:23 (10 when set to 4.5 and 20 when set to 9) Oct 14 13:04:24 hehe, you'll need a USB->whatever adapter Oct 14 13:04:50 or a Y cable maybe? Oct 14 13:05:07 basically the inverted thing to a CA-146A Oct 14 13:05:20 Y-cable may work as well, yes Oct 14 13:05:36 though it does different things to the 'host' Oct 14 13:05:52 a powered hub usually doesn't feed VBUS upstream Oct 14 13:05:59 a Y-cable does Oct 14 13:06:44 a powered hub usually doesn't feed VBUS upstream - I didn't get this part :p Oct 14 13:06:58 docscrutinizer, well, it appears to work in a funny way Oct 14 13:07:14 docscrutinizer, once I create an event to occur once every two weeks, it syncs fine Oct 14 13:07:16 DocScrutinizer: Right, and I've basically started the ball rolling on that on maemo-developers: inviting someone to evaluate the concerns and issue a warning. If you're that concerned, why not add a comment saying "There are concerns, see this thread: " Oct 14 13:07:24 docscrutinizer, if I modify it, it suddenly occurs (per the device) every week Oct 14 13:07:25 MohammadAG51: when you plug your N900 to upstream port of an externally powered hub, it won't charge Oct 14 13:07:41 oh, that Oct 14 13:07:42 docscrutinizer, if I then remove it from the google calendar and sync again (to the device), all repetitions are removed Oct 14 13:08:07 docscrutinizer, so quite possible the 1-week-limitation is only in the user interface Oct 14 13:08:23 (modifying the event enforces the maximum weekly repetition it knows) Oct 14 13:08:45 flux: ack, as expected Oct 14 13:08:57 stupid :(. when I've done similar systems, I've always given an additional entry for whatever the pre-set value is even though the gui doesn't support it Oct 14 13:09:17 Jaffa: sorry, I wasn't aware of any of those threads in tmo/ML/whatever Oct 14 13:11:31 flux: this concept of "the basics can do it, but the UI doesn't support it" can be found all over maemo. See profiles, starhash, anywhere you look at Oct 14 13:12:20 docscrutinizer, maybe there's a hierarchy of coders, the better ones write the core components :P Oct 14 13:12:45 you might think that's close to reality Oct 14 13:12:52 DocScrutinizer: http://lists.maemo.org/pipermail/maemo-community/2010-October/004562.html, "RobbieThe1st" replied - but I've only just realised it was just to me. Oct 14 13:18:06 Badgers Digging Up Ancient Human Remains! Oct 14 13:18:38 nom nom nom Oct 14 13:19:35 ~backupmenu is http://lists.maemo.org/pipermail/maemo-community/2010-October/004562.html Oct 14 13:19:36 DocScrutinizer: okay Oct 14 13:21:02 flux: thanks for the hint, and for testing :-D Oct 14 13:23:46 Jaffa: this mail plus the followup seem sufficiently clear, all it'd need now was a way to let trustful user know about it (like a warning popup when installing, with the particular URL as of above) Oct 14 13:27:15 Jaffa: http://lists.maemo.org/pipermail/maemo-community/2010-October/thread.html#4561 did you really thread that way? Oct 14 13:31:56 Ok, the "wonderful news" thread degenerated into a lemming bazaar pretty quickly Oct 14 13:33:22 RST38h, Which one? Oct 14 13:37:58 Jaffa: I added a comment to http://maemo.org/packages/package_instance/view/fremantle_extras-devel_free_armel/backupmenu/0.32-1/ Oct 14 13:39:32 jaska: as the changelog doesn't indicate there were any fixes from backupmenu_0.31-2.tar.gz Frantisek Dufka checked in http://lists.maemo.org/pipermail/maemo-community/2010-October/004563.html, to that version, regarding the dangerous dd Oct 14 13:39:55 you got tabpwned, docscrutinizer Oct 14 13:40:10 oops Oct 14 13:40:15 sorry jaska Oct 14 13:41:44 DocScrutinizer: I've replied to Robbie asking him to do something Oct 14 13:42:01 tabbwn Oct 14 13:42:03 yeah, remove the package from repo :-D Oct 14 13:43:49 DocScrutinizer, or remove the backup/restore rootfs option Oct 14 13:44:10 as for mmcblk1, I don't see it harmful(?) Oct 14 13:44:27 MohammadAG51: fair enough, for eMMC it should work flawlessly Oct 14 13:44:49 as for ssh, it's useful Oct 14 13:45:06 and* Oct 14 13:45:24 it saved me from bricking my device twice Oct 14 13:45:29 i've never tested it as I knew from beginning this can't work Oct 14 13:51:07 naysayer Oct 14 13:51:21 I repaired a bricking situation with meego a litle while ago. Oct 14 13:51:42 Dual boot does have a fair few positives ^.^ Oct 14 13:56:26 alterego, true, but NOLO refused to get to the bootmenu Oct 14 13:56:47 Eesh Oct 14 13:56:53 i had to pass custom kernel parameters to boot from a different root Oct 14 14:03:53 Is it known if the meego dual-boot support in PR1.3 will involve both using the same kernel version, or if NOLO is updated to be able to boot different kernels? Oct 14 14:04:02 The latter would be awesome. :) Oct 14 14:04:59 dsg: so, the blog post wasn't 100% precise. what will be done is based upon ali1234's u-boot work Oct 14 14:05:17 so if you plug in a sd card with a uimage, it'll boot from there, otherwise boot the normal maemo kernel Oct 14 14:06:12 Ah, ok, thanks. That's great news. Oct 14 14:06:22 Stskeeps: that see very practical Oct 14 14:06:43 is like a live cd Oct 14 14:08:49 Stskeeps, glad i contributed to all this Oct 14 14:09:08 apparently me calling ali1234 a troll got him motivated, and he ported uboot :P Oct 14 14:09:52 lol Oct 14 14:11:07 MohammadAG51: When Mohammad speaks, the World listens. ;) Oct 14 14:23:17 link? Oct 14 14:25:08 sounds to me like PR1.3 is supposed to ship a new NOLO? I'd like to know *exactly* what this new NOLO implements Oct 14 14:25:37 e.g security framework...? Oct 14 14:26:10 new nolo, what? Oct 14 14:27:11 err, do you chainload uboot from NOLO? or how is that true dualboot supposed to work then? Oct 14 14:27:31 (chainload uboot even for starting maemo) Oct 14 14:27:39 DocScrutinizer: yes Oct 14 14:28:10 duh, that's the standard stock system as shipped by Nokia for PR1.3?? Oct 14 14:28:33 no, news sites are blowing kexec patch out of proportions Oct 14 14:29:56 hmm, I really don't get the whole picture. Could you (or dsg) share a link to that blogpost or any other starting point for this story please Oct 14 14:30:45 basically harri got confused by the multiboot solution we'd be using in meego/n900 (it was supposed to be with kexec in the past, but now we have uboot.) Oct 14 14:31:01 and we got the patch for kexec into PR1.3 kernel Oct 14 14:31:03 :-) Oct 14 14:31:22 aah, ok. Thanks for clarifying that Oct 14 14:31:40 u-boot is just much saner than a /sbin/preinit hack with kexec Oct 14 14:31:48 sure Oct 14 14:32:35 how much does it bite out of NAND? Oct 14 14:32:40 2MB? Oct 14 14:32:52 it merges together with the kernel as one image Oct 14 14:32:57 wow Oct 14 14:33:08 the kernel being the maemo kernel Oct 14 14:33:15 so if it doesn't find a uimage on sd, it boots maemo kernel instead Oct 14 14:33:25 cool shit Oct 14 14:33:54 you got USBtty uboot console? Oct 14 14:34:20 think so Oct 14 14:34:25 sec Oct 14 14:34:29 err, probably you'd not need that as we got a decent keyboard, but anyway Oct 14 14:34:38 http://al.robotfuzz.com/~al/maemo/u-boot/ Oct 14 14:34:45 i can explain all i want but code speaks better Oct 14 14:34:52 :-D Oct 14 14:36:51 whats a NOLO ? Oct 14 14:37:17 NOkia bootLOader Oct 14 14:37:28 oh okay Oct 14 14:38:07 should they show up a Stylish looking boot screen with advanced GUI , or just a plain one ? Oct 14 14:38:55 Stskeeps: I'm not an uBoot expert, but I think there's been an issue with ext2/3fs inode size which keeps uBoot from loading kernel off a standard ext2 partition and so creates need for a FAT partition Oct 14 14:39:58 maybe this special uBoot can get the patches to work with 256byte inodes (instead of 128 ?), so you don't need the FAT partition at all Oct 14 14:40:00 DocScrutinizer: ah, that might be the problem i was encountering before Oct 14 14:40:08 got a URL for patches? Oct 14 14:40:25 lemme check my age-old bookmarks, could take a while Oct 14 14:41:13 is there a way to see if the gps has been turned on? Oct 14 14:41:18 like a path in /sys or something Oct 14 14:42:12 for now you can check man mkfs.ext2 and set inode size to 128 (that's been default until some years ago, when they changed it in mkfs.ext it seems uBoot broke and nobody cared to fix it) Oct 14 14:42:29 ieatlint: phonet Oct 14 14:42:49 ieatlint: i.e. it's not simple probably Oct 14 14:43:02 bleh, ok Oct 14 14:43:24 check if location daemon's running ieatlint Oct 14 14:43:29 i am pissed at qtmobility again.. Oct 14 14:43:51 i've got a "location-proxy" process, only one with location in its name Oct 14 14:44:12 umm, start maps or sth Oct 14 14:45:00 previously qtm would give me approx location estimates that seemed to be based off the cell and not the gps (6.5km accuracy, which is shitty for cell even)... now it won't even give me anything, just sends updates with no data Oct 14 14:45:13 location-daemon Oct 14 14:45:38 and qtm also is reporting it ONLY supports gps on the phone, so wtf Oct 14 14:46:23 and yeah, maps launches location-daemon, so qtm is doing something wrong Oct 14 14:47:32 i assume location-daemon will also start when it's doing the cell tower based location estimate? Oct 14 14:48:16 Stskeeps: http://lists.denx.de/pipermail/u-boot/2008-July/037784.html Oct 14 14:53:47 ieatlint: ask luke-jr_, he's supposed to know quite a bit about where to look at to find out if cellmo has started GPS chip or not Oct 14 14:54:41 location-test-gui shows a nice GUI Oct 14 14:54:54 ieatlint: usually you (the user / app-devel) aren't supposed to know about current state of GPS chip Oct 14 14:55:00 ok, i have slightly more info now at least, as location-daemon wasn't running at times, so i definitely know there's an issue there Oct 14 14:55:12 i'm still unsure if the data that qtm occasionally reports is from the gps or not though Oct 14 14:55:52 the liblocation is designed to hide those details away and handle power management regarding GPS chip activation in a transparent way Oct 14 14:55:53 well, the c liblocation lets you concretely ask for the gps location or the location from the cell tower estimate... qtm blurs that more, as you set "preferred" methods Oct 14 14:56:05 http://maemo.org/packages/view/location-test-gui/ Oct 14 14:56:42 Part of the problem is that there is not two positions. Oct 14 14:57:06 There is one position estimate that can e configured tro work out position in differentr ways. Oct 14 14:57:32 ieatlint: that's not completely correct. liblocation also doesn't guarantee for a location report NOT being of higher quality than the one you requested Oct 14 14:57:35 This means that if you have a GPS requiring app, and something specifies that it'd like cell positioning, it's gonna fail Oct 14 14:57:37 ieatlint: iirc you can also ask for preferred with the C calls Oct 14 14:58:13 my very basic gps app using qtm works only sometimes... seems about 5 out of 10 times it won't actually start location-daemon, and just reports a bunch of nan values, 3/10 it reports data that has a >6km accuracy, and that lucky remaining 2/10 i get valid data Oct 14 14:59:18 ieatlint: you're supposed to check precision of location msgs, to determine if it is sufficiently precise for your purpose Oct 14 15:00:24 ieatlint: I.E. even when you ask for AGPS locations, this doesn't avoid some only cell tower based locations being sent until GPS actually gets a fix Oct 14 15:00:26 yeah, my issue was that i could sit for 10min getting only data with a 6+km accuracy, then close the app, open up maps, and get a 50m accuracy lock in under 10s Oct 14 15:00:54 is Maps overriding the settings setting? Oct 14 15:00:57 check the bug on tacker for that Oct 14 15:01:01 but every once in a while, the qtm based app will just work Oct 14 15:01:13 did a quick search, will try and be more thorough Oct 14 15:02:02 found out that the reported accuracy for qtm on maemo before qtm-location 1.0.2 had an awesome bug: reported its accuracy in cm instead of meters, heh (copying liblocation's val without adjusting) Oct 14 15:02:25 basically with A the GPS is supposed to get a fix quite quickly, while without network connectivity it may take several minutes. Oct 14 15:03:00 yeah, i understand Oct 14 15:03:15 but there is also location estimation that never turns on the gps chip as i understand it Oct 14 15:03:18 ovi map (plus several other apps) stop the GPS if there's no fix after 60s Oct 14 15:03:49 dunno what this qt thing's gonna do Oct 14 15:04:17 LOCATION_METHOD_ACWP in liblocation "Assisted Complementary Wireless Positioning: A method where device is located based on cellular base station to which device is registered to." Oct 14 15:04:41 :nod: ? Oct 14 15:05:06 so my issue is that it appeared that qtm was using that method only at times Oct 14 15:05:07 you don't need to quote the other 5 Oct 14 15:05:16 wasn't about to :P Oct 14 15:05:42 anyway, i'll go look through qtm bug reports and see if i see anything of note, heh Oct 14 15:06:02 yes, if some other app requested for a 'better' method, then this will override ACWP Oct 14 15:06:22 ieatlint: what is your app out of interest? Oct 14 15:06:42 lardman: public transit app Oct 14 15:06:53 gps to auto-find nearby stops, etc Oct 14 15:07:12 ieatlint: check fahrplan Oct 14 15:07:22 and the assumption is that in a city the cell assist location is accurate enough? Oct 14 15:07:23 though that's a webapp Oct 14 15:07:47 nope, never will Oct 14 15:07:54 no, the cell assist isn't is the point Oct 14 15:08:09 but qtm keeps going to it, even though qtm says that it's an unsupported method Oct 14 15:08:31 qtm API seems poorly designed? Oct 14 15:08:50 :P Oct 14 15:09:04 yeah, i'll stop my bitching soon and just use liblocation, which i know works reliably Oct 14 15:09:15 ack Oct 14 15:09:19 :-D Oct 14 15:09:45 dunno about fahrplan, but the backend i'm using is only found in the US and canada Oct 14 15:10:39 ieatlint: bug #7026 Oct 14 15:10:41 Bug https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=7026 Can't get a GPS lock with several satellites at view Oct 14 15:10:41 well in that case you might want to check the free (as in data) location request that's one further up the list ;) Oct 14 15:11:26 ieatlint: it's really lengthy but going thru all of it gives you quite an idea how location is working, and why Oct 14 15:11:28 DocScrutinizer: hmmm... are you suggesting that qtm is only using gps and not agps? Oct 14 15:12:03 ieatlint: I suggest nothing regarding qtm - tbh I got nfc what that is at all Oct 14 15:12:18 qtm == qtmobility Oct 14 15:12:23 ieatlint: does it start a net connection when you run qtm? Oct 14 15:12:49 qt's wrapper api for device-specific things like gps so that apps can be written across multiple devices without rewriting parts Oct 14 15:13:04 lardman: uh, well i'm already running a net connection.. Oct 14 15:13:06 ieatlint: did you try "geeps"? It uses qtm for location and it seems to work...if doesn't for you it may be some other issue Oct 14 15:13:16 ieatlint: ah, fair enough Oct 14 15:13:48 ieatlint: was just wondering if qtm was having troubles/not allowed to connect to grab assistance data, etc Oct 14 15:13:55 but apparently not Oct 14 15:14:33 fcrochik: thanks.. am looking at it now Oct 14 15:14:49 will assume you're the author, so you apparently have fared better with it than me Oct 14 15:15:27 fcrochik: that's also a webapp isnt' it? In which case the location stuff is handled by the browser plugin I assume Oct 14 15:15:56 nah, looking at his source now, it's in qt Oct 14 15:15:58 ieatlint: at least that notorious infamous 60s timeout would explain your >>then close the app, open up maps, and get a 50m accuracy lock in under 10s<< Oct 14 15:15:59 lardman: no....I handle the location on the app and just tricked the webkit/gmaps to get it Oct 14 15:16:10 oh right Oct 14 15:17:04 lardman: the new qtwebkit is supposed to implement the location but I did not want to have to force everybody to install a complete new webkit and also wanted to track the coordinates on the qt side so I can play with them Oct 14 15:17:16 cool Oct 14 15:17:40 lardman: when I say new qwebkit I mean the one that hasn't been release and probably won't for a while by what I understood... Oct 14 15:18:15 righty-ho Oct 14 15:19:21 ieatlint: for me it takes a few seconds to lock depending on where I am and then the very first updates are very innacurate....but then gets to the spot... Oct 14 15:19:45 fcrochik: was I just blind, but when I tried it I couldn't see where to enter my search term e.g. banks Oct 14 15:20:08 fcrochik: was it necessary for you to do the QGeoSatelliteInfoSource::createDefaultSource() in addition to the QGeoPositionInfoSource? Oct 14 15:20:12 fcrochik: would be nice to add an area of uncertaintly to the map Oct 14 15:20:45 lardman: no...that is what I am working on right now....I was hoping to use google places api for that but didn't get a key from google....I am going to implement the json google search api for "local search" Oct 14 15:21:06 ieatlint: I think so.... Oct 14 15:21:21 or you could let people use their own keys, but that's a faff Oct 14 15:21:23 hmm, ok, that could be my problem then Oct 14 15:21:36 although the fact that it works sometimes without that is... weird Oct 14 15:22:13 lardman, faff? Fucking Anal Freedom Fighter? Oct 14 15:22:19 ieatlint: one sample code I found (and can't find again) had some code for you wait/monitor the satellite acquiring the position...so you would not report the position until was close Oct 14 15:23:05 crashanddie__: well, could possibly be that too, but I was thinking more along these lines: http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/faff Oct 14 15:23:06 well, in theory just watching the horizontal accuracy should be enough for that Oct 14 15:24:11 ieatlint: I guess so.... just thought it probably would be cool to know more information about the sattelite part...just curious... Oct 14 15:24:32 yeah, i understand.. Oct 14 15:24:42 just trying to see if that is somehow my problem Oct 14 15:26:58 yeah, nope, 5 runs after adding that and each time it fails to start location-daemon... i never get even wildly inaccurate data, entire just a series of nan -- but it still keeps triggering positionUpdate() Oct 14 15:27:13 * lardman looks at white screen in GeePS and wonders why there are no maps showing Oct 14 15:27:47 lardman: you have to have the internet connection stablished before you run it.... Oct 14 15:28:10 lardman: it will start the "connect" thing but will fail to load the page even if you select a connection Oct 14 15:28:16 ah I see Oct 14 15:28:27 doesn't remember settings either Oct 14 15:28:35 lardman: one more qtm api to play with at some point :) Oct 14 15:28:42 :) Oct 14 15:29:23 does it give you the horizontal position accuracy? Oct 14 15:29:28 in code that is Oct 14 15:30:41 lardman: I remember altitude only... at least on the position updates... maybe the "source" for satellite or "position" will give you that Oct 14 15:30:48 hmm, shame the IM client can't be set to show position if available, and not keep the gps running if nothing else is using it Oct 14 15:31:16 fcrochik: would be worth drawing a circle around the "you are here" marker so people know how accurate the fix is Oct 14 15:31:22 much like google do on their maps Oct 14 15:31:52 * lardman curses Maps every time he uses it as it doesn't have one, no idea if I'm 10m or 1mile away from the dot Oct 14 15:32:00 lardman: I did not find anything on qtm that will give me that...was just looking at it right now Oct 14 15:33:50 hasProperty() and property on the QGeoPositionInfo Oct 14 15:33:53 ieatlint: seems that the only other information you can get is the list of satellites in view and in use Oct 14 15:34:08 QGeoPositionInfo::HorizontalAccuracy as the value Oct 14 15:34:10 and their signal strength it looks Oct 14 15:34:25 lardman: cool! didn't see it Oct 14 15:34:53 I think the GPS class is a subclass of the basic QGeoPositionInfo class Oct 14 15:35:12 well that's what I'm guessing without actually studying the docs too much anyway ;) Oct 14 15:35:48 lardman: GPS class? where? Oct 14 15:36:20 I was thinking of NMEA and Satellite info Oct 14 15:36:23 lardman: nah, qgeosatelliteinfosource inherits qobject Oct 14 15:36:26 but think I was acutally wrong Oct 14 15:36:57 and qgeopositioninfosource does have several values to give things like horizontal accuracy, veritical accuracy and speed Oct 14 15:37:39 ieatlint: qgeopositioninfosource or QGeoPositionInfo? Oct 14 15:37:59 err, yes, qgeopositioninfo Oct 14 15:38:27 http://doc.qt.nokia.com/qtmobility-1.0/qgeopositioninfo.html#Attribute-enum has the full list of attributes Oct 14 15:38:52 the direction may also be of use for you, although as it's based on movement, it can be wildly inaccurate Oct 14 15:39:25 might be more useful if a future device includes an e-compass and this data is integrated Oct 14 15:39:32 ieatlint: what was my next question. I assume we don't get QGeoPositionInfo::MagneticVariation, right? Oct 14 15:39:52 you can query it ;) Oct 14 15:40:22 lardman: I will...I will... :( Oct 14 15:40:28 Hi all Oct 14 15:40:36 this is what we get, it seems: "QGeoPositionInfo(QDateTime("Thu Oct 14 08:36:44 2010") , QGeoCoordinate(NN.7918, -NN.48, 64.5), Direction=247.6, GroundSpeed=1.656, VerticalSpeed=0, HorizontalAccuracy=45.94, VerticalAccuracy=80)" Oct 14 15:40:42 Feedback needed on the updated packaging docs Oct 14 15:41:05 accuracy is in metres for qtm-location 1.0.2, and cm for 1.0.0 and 1.0.1 (heh) Oct 14 15:41:27 See http://wiki.maemo.org/Packaging#Adding_an_icon_and_desktop_file <-- Oct 14 15:42:31 hi crashanddie Oct 14 15:42:35 the third value of qgeocoordinate there is the altitude in metres... which on most consumer gps devices is usually a joke Oct 14 15:42:58 I just updated the Packaging docs to explain how to package a pixmap & desktop file Oct 14 15:42:59 i think 30m vertical accuracy is considered very good :P Oct 14 15:43:01 dneary: Isn't the icon supposed to be 64? Oct 14 15:43:13 Care to give it a quick once-over & see if you can spot anything incorrect? Oct 14 15:43:21 ieatlint, yeah and it gets really screwed when you leave earth gravity well Oct 14 15:43:22 fcrochik, Looks fine at 48x48 for me Oct 14 15:43:50 fcrochik, I *was* slightly confused between the uuencoded pixmap in debial/control and the icon for the menu Oct 14 15:44:12 yes...I think the uuencoded is 48 ..but the one in the menu is 64 Oct 14 15:44:15 fcrochik, If you want to be strict about it, I could create icons at different sizes Oct 14 15:44:39 lcuk: that's an unproven myth Oct 14 15:45:04 fcrochik, Can you find me a reference for that, please? I have spent a couple of hours hunting for information on what Maemo expects in a desktop file over & above the desktop spec Oct 14 15:45:17 All those custom fields don't seem to be documented anywhere Oct 14 15:45:25 lcuk: it's geometric afaiu Oct 14 15:46:12 i like that in the US, the military has a altitude limit at which consumer gps units are no longer allowed to function Oct 14 15:46:22 ( the direction may also be of use for you, although as it's based on movement, it can be wildly inaccurate) how can a movement vector direction be accurate for anything else than what it actually is, like orientation of device or whatever you implied? They are unrelated complementary info entities Oct 14 15:46:32 ieatlint: and a speed limit Oct 14 15:46:50 o_O speed limits too? Oct 14 15:46:52 awesome Oct 14 15:47:04 "you will not use our GPSes to drive your cuise missiles" Oct 14 15:47:10 yeah, to prevent use on homemade ballistic missiles ;) Oct 14 15:47:19 lcuk, You're a shit-hot Maemo coder... could you have a quick look & make some suggestions? Oct 14 15:47:19 DocScrutinizer: well the issue is that when standing still, your gps is likely to report slight position changes, which can cause your reported direction to be inaccurate Oct 14 15:47:30 yet you can use it on aircraft - whats the limit lardman ? Oct 14 15:47:40 mgedmin: depends how slowly your cruise missile flies, and how low ;) Oct 14 15:47:47 dneary: I don't think I remember how I got to the conclusion but one idea would be to just make a screen shot of the menu to see the size of the icon there.... the uuencoded version I read somewhere....will look for more Oct 14 15:47:50 cruise dirigibles still dangerous Oct 14 15:47:50 999knots or somesuch Oct 14 15:47:56 I don't necessarily want to push people towards autotools, but I don't know of any good docs on using anything other than that with Maemo & Debian packaging Oct 14 15:47:58 * lardman googles Oct 14 15:48:19 the direction of a null-length vector is moot anyway,isn't it? Oct 14 15:48:31 dneary, the qt apps do not use autotools do they? Oct 14 15:48:40 they may Oct 14 15:48:45 But most usually don't Oct 14 15:48:50 KDE apps use Cmake Oct 14 15:48:58 And Qt suggests using project files Oct 14 15:49:09 And I think Nokia are pushing people towards something else again Oct 14 15:49:11 DocScrutinizer: fare enough Oct 14 15:49:13 512m/s or 18km Oct 14 15:49:20 But it's quite independent Oct 14 15:49:38 (autotools just tells you how to build something - and so do all the other things) Oct 14 15:49:39 lardman, come on, we are English, how many hogs to the horsehead? Oct 14 15:49:54 You could even use ant or scons for a Qt app, if you wanted Oct 14 15:50:01 dneary: did you get my email? am I completly wrong on how you should package an app? Oct 14 15:50:19 72 566 929.1 inches per hour Oct 14 15:50:24 fcrochik, When did you send an email? Oct 14 15:50:33 fcrochik, I have not checked in an hour or so Oct 14 15:50:39 lcuk: or 1145.31138 mph Oct 14 15:50:39 I replied to your message on maemo-devel Oct 14 15:50:45 dneary, also remember you can use simple makefiles, or nothing at all just modifying the debian package itself (mostly useful for script installs) Oct 14 15:50:54 lardman, hey-ho. Oct 14 15:50:58 Yes - I see your mail now. Let me read through it... Oct 14 15:50:59 hehe lardman cool Oct 14 15:51:01 hey GeneralAntilles Oct 14 15:51:09 lardman, got sponsorship. Oct 14 15:51:23 lo GAN900 Oct 14 15:51:25 lcuk, Yes, and since in theory you could be building for just one platform, simple Makefiles might be acceptable Oct 14 15:51:50 But as I said on-list, a lot of the time you're repackaging existing software, or starting with whatever you know Oct 14 15:53:03 GeneralAntilles: good show, I guess that means I'll have to come on over then to abuse you in person :) Oct 14 15:53:04 heya lardman Oct 14 15:53:07 dneary, sure, if the existing tooling is using autotools, it would not be trivial to change it over Oct 14 15:53:09 hi RST38h Oct 14 15:53:16 lardman, indeed. Oct 14 15:53:17 dneary: the document you are reviewing is the source of my idea that the uuencoded icon should be 48..... Oct 14 15:53:21 lcuk, Depends on the application Oct 14 15:53:35 dneary, sure Oct 14 15:53:46 fcrochik, I didn't invent that - it was there before I started :) Oct 14 15:53:49 * RST38h wonders what prevents people from writing crossplatform Makefiles Oct 14 15:54:02 RST38h, nothing Oct 14 15:54:02 All your platforms use gmake anyway, don't they? Oct 14 15:54:08 I have a makefile in liqbase Oct 14 15:54:14 it happily builds on arm and x86 Oct 14 15:54:58 * lardman needs to send his passport off to get an Indian visa, better do that fast otherwise it won't be back in time Oct 14 15:55:09 lardman: www....w.wwww....why Oct 14 15:55:19 dneary: I know that works just fine that way... :) My only point is that you if the icon on the programs menu is really 64 you probably should include a 64 at least Oct 14 15:55:39 RST38h: www...w..wwww.work trip Oct 14 15:55:49 RST38h: freebsd has qt ;p Oct 14 15:55:50 lcuk: then ants, cmakes, sconses, and other abominations deserve an occam razor. Oct 14 15:55:57 and make != gmake Oct 14 15:56:02 Stskeeps: FreeBSD had Qt (and KDE) for years Oct 14 15:56:09 Stskeeps: And FreeBSD also has gmake. Oct 14 15:56:23 lcuk, Right... but if ever you decide to make a generic desktop version, you'll need to be able to adapt to different install prefixes (/opt, /usr/local, etc) Oct 14 15:56:43 lardman: Don't eat. Or drink. :) Oct 14 15:56:50 lcuk, And perhaps different toolchains (Sun or IBM vs GNU) Oct 14 15:56:53 etc, etc Oct 14 15:57:01 qmake über alles? Oct 14 15:57:03 dneary: Doable with makefiles. Oct 14 15:57:03 I know, been before - vege curries all the way, quite pleasant actually Oct 14 15:57:12 dneary, crossing different bridges as they come to, i understood simple makefiles before anything else and setting/unsetting a few switches based on the system configuration isn't much of a problem at the moment Oct 14 15:57:17 lardman: heh Oct 14 15:57:26 and beer, due to the alcoholic steralisation only, promise Oct 14 15:57:31 o/ lcuk btw Oct 14 15:57:35 you still in HEL? Oct 14 15:57:40 People like to rag on autotools a lot, but one thing you can say for it is that it's made the standard build process be no more complicated than ./configure && make && make install Oct 14 15:57:45 lardman: that is what they told me when they refused me a Trinidad visa Oct 14 15:57:49 yes I am frals, I just got back from meeting sampo Oct 14 15:57:54 dneary: when it works... ;) Oct 14 15:57:56 lcuk, Sure - there's nothing wrong with Makefiles Oct 14 15:57:58 lardman: "As you do not drink rum, you won't survive there anyway" Oct 14 15:58:02 was nice to see you but you left before we had a chance to sit down Oct 14 15:58:10 are there any bars open now? :D Oct 14 15:58:11 lcuk, And when all the world's a GNU/Linux... ;-) Oct 14 15:58:11 RST38h: :) Oct 14 15:58:21 dneary, *nod* Oct 14 15:58:28 dneary: Autotools made MY build process a nightmare. Oct 14 15:58:31 thats why I said about changing systems Oct 14 15:58:44 lcuk: yeah, gotta an awful cold atm so dead tired all the time Oct 14 15:58:47 dneary: my issue with autotools is the wierd and wonderful variables you have to define to fix things that don't want to build Oct 14 15:58:54 far nicer just to see it all before you Oct 14 15:58:58 lcuk: in finland bars are always open :P Oct 14 15:59:00 its tough to justify retesting and checking when a simple tweak to whatever existing system is in use Oct 14 15:59:26 dneary: Besides, autotools are largely useless nowadays, as the toolchains and architectures got unified Oct 14 15:59:32 my new helicopter is awesome btw :D Oct 14 15:59:32 lardman, Example? Oct 14 15:59:34 its tiny! Oct 14 15:59:41 helicopter? :D Oct 14 15:59:45 and its tricky, but it flies well Oct 14 15:59:46 yea Oct 14 15:59:50 RST38h, Yes, free software has won (yay!) Oct 14 15:59:51 link! Oct 14 16:00:02 dneary: will have to dig through my old mathematical software rules files Oct 14 16:00:10 sorry! Oct 14 16:00:11 I got it from the hardware store just down from NRC Oct 14 16:00:27 Still... cc, gcc, icc, distcc, ... Oct 14 16:00:27 dneary: Not just free software, but specific free software (gcc, linux) and hw architectures (x86, arm, some mips) Oct 14 16:00:36 tracy got me a new battery for my bigger helicopter in the uk, but this one is really small Oct 14 16:00:48 I thought in Finland the bars are called bank-to-rip-you Oct 14 16:00:49 dneary: I build with microsoft c++, gcc, and watcom c, using same makefiles Oct 14 16:00:51 busybox, scratchbox, ulibc, GNU libc, ... Oct 14 16:00:54 * lcuk likes taking off from the floor and landing on the chair Oct 14 16:00:54 dneary: Not difficult at all Oct 14 16:01:11 Package and Deployment wizard FTW! Oct 14 16:01:16 lcuk: I've got one somewhere but it's a bugger to fly, need a bigger room Oct 14 16:01:31 lardman, I once took my bigger helicopter outside! Oct 14 16:01:32 lcuk: is yours a counter-rotating prop job? Oct 14 16:01:33 and sure they can be open 24/7, as a single sold beer will compensate for the monthly rent Oct 14 16:01:33 dneary: again, using same makefiles, I support Linux, FreeBSD, Solaris, Windows, and bloody MSDOS Oct 14 16:01:38 its bigger but still indoor model Oct 14 16:01:41 lcuk: how big is big? Oct 14 16:01:45 everything was fine till I peeked over the wall Oct 14 16:01:47 a second for the personal Oct 14 16:01:56 RST38h, So help pitch in with the beginner's Packaging article then ;) Oct 14 16:02:07 lardman, my bigger one is a twister bell 47 - indoor model still Oct 14 16:02:20 dneary: What OS, where ? Oct 14 16:02:35 RST38h, http://wiki.maemo.org/Packaging Oct 14 16:02:39 lcuk: I think I need to sneak into the sports hall here and try flying with some more space around Oct 14 16:02:51 perhaps during the upcoming exams :) Oct 14 16:02:55 lardman, the NRC has a great big area perfect for flying Oct 14 16:03:16 I would like to get a model large enough to fly around there if I would be allowed one day :) Oct 14 16:03:26 dneary: Well, you will not be interested in my contribution, as it says "Prerequisites: autotoools" right there Oct 14 16:03:35 dneary:I do not package using autotools Oct 14 16:05:31 autotools, nuts like bison/yacc Oct 14 16:09:43 lcuk: I'd like to have a model large enough for my 60kg payload :-D Oct 14 16:10:51 _o/ Oct 14 16:11:08 well DocScrutinizer I want one large enough to carry enough electronics to do full telemerty and processing Oct 14 16:11:35 + hellfire missiles Oct 14 16:11:57 mhm, so ~350g Oct 14 16:12:06 :-P Oct 14 16:12:30 lol Oct 14 16:12:40 lardman, those go against the gps speed limit :P Oct 14 16:14:29 RST38h, Prerequisites: autotools is for the autotools example Oct 14 16:15:01 lcuk: apparently some chipsets perform a Boolean OR on the constraints Oct 14 16:15:11 and hellfires are normally low level Oct 14 16:15:25 All compliant ones should do AND Oct 14 16:15:41 The legislation specifies that it must not work at >1000kt/60000 feet Oct 14 16:15:48 when both are exceeded. Oct 14 16:15:51 RST38h, I would welcome alternative (valid, not confusing, not talking down other packaging methods) means of packaging apps Oct 14 16:15:52 Exceeding one is fine. Oct 14 16:16:06 There is a list on the ukhas wiki on usable over 60000 feet GPSs Oct 14 16:16:16 http://ukhas.org.uk/ Oct 14 16:16:29 anyway it's nonsense as you can do the proper calculations on your own, in arbitrary cpu attached to a raw receiver Oct 14 16:16:41 lardman, you make it sound difficult, like its rocket science or something :P Oct 14 16:16:55 SpeedEvil: ah ok Oct 14 16:18:42 dneary: Yea, I can do that Oct 14 16:19:28 DocScrutinizer: artificial limitations always look weird Oct 14 16:19:37 SpeedEvil: isn't that obsolete heritage anyway, given the fact even 'amateurs' can build their own GPS nowadays? Oct 14 16:20:21 DocScrutinizer: it depends. Oct 14 16:20:33 DocScrutinizer: it is a modest amount of work to implement a GPS. Oct 14 16:20:43 so a rogue country isn't exactly looking for a 30$ commercial GPS to guide their atomic balistic missiles Oct 14 16:21:03 DocScrutinizer: but yes - against state actors, it's now a joke. Oct 14 16:28:44 if US-army were clever they never had introduced that limitation, but instead would have secret directional TX on their stallites that creates a severe missguidance on altitudes above 70000ft - - wait, maybe that's exactly what they've done :-P Oct 14 16:30:28 night chaps Oct 14 16:30:52 and to avoid it becoming disclosed they usually sync the upper level with the ground level and only activate the false guidance feature when a rocket launch is detected X-P Oct 14 16:31:24 meh Oct 14 16:34:29 you can't easily have a directional transmitter. Oct 14 16:34:48 The sats are usually overhead, and at halfway to GEO Oct 14 16:35:08 making the timing anbbiguous can't be done geometrically Oct 14 16:37:49 You do understand that inertial guidance will do just as well, as long as you are delivering a larger payload? Oct 14 16:38:35 And very few nations will worry about hitting the bad guy with a missile DIRECTLY ON HIS HEAD Oct 14 16:41:39 RST38h: IT doesn't work that way so much. Oct 14 16:42:14 Though it's getting lots easier, an inertial platform will drift quite a ways in a flight of several thousand seconds. Oct 14 16:42:37 hmm Oct 14 16:42:50 code for live backgrounds in new hildon-desktop Oct 14 16:43:20 An error of 1mm/s^2 adds up to a CEP variance of 500m after 20 min Oct 14 16:44:53 SpeedEvil: According to an acquaintance, inertial positioning can retain usable precision for a couple of hours. Oct 14 16:45:42 RST38h, it depends on many more variables Oct 14 16:45:53 RST38h: It depends on the quality of the platform. Oct 14 16:45:58 SpeedEvil: of course Oct 14 16:46:32 If you pay $1000 for an INS platform, you may get a little better than 500m error in 20 mins. Oct 14 16:46:33 SpeedEvil: the platform is a large metal/fiber tube with a 20Mt warheadat the top Oct 14 16:46:54 then use facial recognition RST38h :P Oct 14 16:47:17 lcuk: Actually, early Tomahawks used terrain recognition, afaik Oct 14 16:47:27 But that assumes that it's not manouevering, which tends to add other errors. Oct 14 16:47:38 Also - accurate positioning is a force multiplier. Oct 14 16:47:50 are you guys on mushrooms again? Oct 14 16:48:01 SpeedEvil: No, those tubes are not very manouvrable Oct 14 16:48:03 you know why USSR developed the MT fusion bombs? just because their guidance wasn't exact enough, so they increased ground zero effective area Oct 14 16:48:08 I need to start keeping a diary about all the junk you talk about Oct 14 16:48:15 Myrtti: Yes. Love those musroom clouds. Oct 14 16:48:15 If you can place your warhead within 1m, one ten million times smaller than 20mt may be quite adequate. Oct 14 16:48:22 Myrtti, they would be but gps wont work when they are high Oct 14 16:48:27 Myrtti: since 40 years Oct 14 16:48:31 Doc: Yes, Doc, I know :) Oct 14 16:48:31 Myrtti, logs Oct 14 16:48:36 they exist Oct 14 16:49:00 lcuk: I know, but I need to take a note on when you're on crack and when you're not Oct 14 16:49:08 logs wont help if I don't have a reference point Oct 14 16:49:13 Myrtti: Are you his doctor? =) Oct 14 16:49:19 * SpeedEvil is never on crack. Oct 14 16:49:27 * SpeedEvil only does prescription drugs. Oct 14 16:49:28 Myrtti, keyword searches :D Oct 14 16:50:12 RST38h: I'm just an observer of the channel Oct 14 16:50:26 the day before yesterday it was north korean communist hamburgers Oct 14 16:50:41 lol Oct 14 16:50:45 Sounds interesting enough Oct 14 16:50:54 missed that one, eer no forgot Oct 14 16:51:00 Besides, what ELSE are we supposed to be talking about? Oct 14 16:51:23 How do you tell a communist hamburger? From each according to his ability, to each accoring to his relish? Oct 14 16:51:40 Myrtti: the way you put it it actually sounds rather funny Oct 14 16:51:45 Speed: No Oct 14 16:51:48 SpeedEvil: fake north korean money used to pay for it Oct 14 16:51:49 Myrtti, search the logs for "great idea" or "awesome" or something Oct 14 16:52:04 theres loads of fragments that can be backtracked Oct 14 16:52:07 Speed: It has got a little red lapel pin stuck in it Oct 14 16:52:13 lcuk, does your son have an X6? Oct 14 16:52:14 some great quotes out of context too Oct 14 16:52:23 I want to make a menu similar to it Oct 14 16:52:34 not sure how hildon-desktop would handle it Oct 14 16:52:54 yesterday it was a discussion about the French, communists, monarchy and - surprise surprise - north korea Oct 14 16:52:57 MohammadAG51, x3 Oct 14 16:53:01 and now you're talking about nuclear bombs... Oct 14 16:53:16 ...and I am sure north korea will be mentioned any time now Oct 14 16:53:23 lcuk, looks like a smiley :3 Oct 14 16:54:04 Ok, let us talk about knitting Oct 14 16:54:16 lcuk: Do you knit, by the way? Doing it a lot? Oct 14 16:54:34 lcuk: Any cool designs you would be willing to share with a fellow knitter? =) Oct 14 16:54:35 RST38h, I do not knit Oct 14 16:54:38 revdkathy does Oct 14 16:54:43 shit. Oct 14 16:54:46 and shes making a maemo jumper! Oct 14 16:54:46 Myrtti: I already did mention it - implicitly in 'rogue country' Oct 14 16:54:47 lcuk: Back to nukes then Oct 14 16:54:58 Myrtti also does needlework of some sort Oct 14 16:55:37 RST38h, that's my speciality Oct 14 16:55:44 DocScrutinizer51: there we go then Oct 14 16:57:06 Next topic: "If Hitler had a nuke..." Oct 14 16:57:10 I swapped most of my nukes for a few MTHELs Oct 14 16:57:37 Doc: What do you do with the chemical residue though? Oct 14 16:57:45 * mgedmin loved the treatment of kitchen nukes in Charles Stross's _Iron Sunrise_ Oct 14 16:58:01 neighbour garden :-P Oct 14 17:01:41 wasnt there a nuke subplot in SnowCrash Oct 14 17:01:44 * lcuk tries to remember Oct 14 17:02:09 motorbike, raven, nuke Oct 14 17:02:15 'Contact patches like a fat womans thighs'. Oct 14 17:03:01 eek Oct 14 17:04:22 it was sort of unresolved Oct 14 17:06:10 valdyn, thanks! 3 words brought back enough of the plot :D Oct 14 17:06:29 RST38h: (residues) HF is nice for killing herbs, you know ;-D Oct 14 17:12:45 Doc: HF has way more uses killing stuff, too Oct 14 17:13:13 Doc: Has your neighbor got any windows left? Oct 14 17:30:15 can anybody help me with a packaging question? For the first time I am trying to use the debian folder from a previous version of the package... where do I change the version of the package? changelog? I usually start over with dh_make and it creates the version based on the dir name Oct 14 17:30:46 changelog, yes Oct 14 17:30:52 use dch -i or dch -a Oct 14 17:31:05 if you've got devscripts installed Oct 14 17:31:40 that is, use dch -i, it will add a new changelog entry for you and launch an editor - - then fix the version to be what you actually want Oct 14 17:31:49 or I suppose you could use dch -v newversion Oct 14 17:32:05 mgedmin: thanks! I will try it Oct 14 17:32:08 * mgedmin hasn't looked at dch --help in a long, long time Oct 14 17:37:35 mgedmin: is there any need for the -1 (e.g. version 0.0.4-1) or can I just use 0.0.4 ? Oct 14 17:39:10 fcrochik: the -x is usually for bug fixes Oct 14 17:39:20 that don't add or alter any functionality Oct 14 17:39:23 debian native packages don't have the -release part Oct 14 17:39:36 great! thanks! Oct 14 17:39:36 debian native packages are where upstream is the one doing the distribution Oct 14 17:40:26 mgedmin: thanks! so much nicer to not have to start over with dh_make... thanks! Oct 14 17:41:06 DocScrutinizer: thanks, might have saved me a lot of trouble (ext2load) Oct 14 17:41:24 yw Oct 14 17:41:59 include some credits where appropriate :-D Oct 14 17:50:25 just in case: just release a new version of geeps that now save the settings and show traffic layer.... Oct 14 17:50:56 fcrochik: how about adding other data sources? Oct 14 17:51:18 (also, is its cache compatible with Maep and other mapping tools?) Oct 14 17:51:29 RST38h: other data sources? you mean for the search? Oct 14 17:51:39 for the maps Oct 14 17:51:59 There s OpenStreetMap (OSM), OpenBycyclingMap, Yandex, etc Oct 14 17:52:06 RST38h: no, it is not... qtwebkit handles the caching... I don't deal with the tiles myself Oct 14 17:52:13 What, no tricycling? :( Oct 14 17:52:13 Oh, almost forgot, Microsoft and Yahoo also have got maps Oct 14 17:52:49 hm, that mugen power battery delivery was quick.. ordered on 7. and arrived today :D Oct 14 17:52:51 ooops no map downloading then Oct 14 17:52:54 RST38h: I am using google maps on a browser....don't do anything with rendering the map Oct 14 17:53:04 oh Oct 14 17:53:16 just in time for my 30th :| Oct 14 17:54:05 jaska: hope you'll enjoy it. All I heard so far wasn't exactly tempting Oct 14 17:54:31 my only complaint is the camera toggle doesnt cover the lens Oct 14 17:54:42 DocScrutinizer51: I think we have several good applications to use offline... don't we? geeps relies on the internet for everything (directions, map, ...) ... the cache is just to be quicker and save some bucks on the dataplan Oct 14 17:54:55 I never scratched the lens using mugen Oct 14 17:55:05 fcrochik: fair nuff Oct 14 17:55:15 but my htc-p4350 belt case fits it even with the new thickness Oct 14 17:55:31 jaska, btw, the battery meter is like $random for the mugen battery Oct 14 17:55:59 fcrochik: how do you pass across the location info? Provide a javascript callback which sends the data over from the C++ code? Oct 14 17:56:07 ooh, only with mugen? X-P Oct 14 17:56:11 :D Oct 14 17:56:16 ShadowJK: Are you actually using Mugen? Is it still comfortable? How much extra time do you get? Oct 14 17:56:48 size/weight doesnt bother me as long as its less than 2110i with power battery pack Oct 14 17:56:51 RST38h, well my N900 is in hungary, or wherever they repair them Oct 14 17:57:07 lardman|home: yes.... I tried another way too that was to add a object to the javascript so the javascript could get the current position as needed Oct 14 17:57:08 lol@2110 Oct 14 17:57:12 oohhh man, 2110i+powerbatt, that was ace :) Oct 14 17:57:22 yup, my first gsm(tm) Oct 14 17:57:25 my first mobile Oct 14 17:57:29 fcrochik: how did you get on with the horizontal precision data? Oct 14 17:57:41 afaiu that is also passed across to the javascript call Oct 14 17:57:43 RST38h, the 2400mAh specification is accurate, 2400/1320 = 1.8 :) Oct 14 17:57:48 or rather can be Oct 14 17:57:52 lardman|home: it could.... I didn't get to that yet :( Oct 14 17:57:58 np :) Oct 14 17:58:34 lardman|home: check the source code for http://www.crochik.com/gps.html Oct 14 17:59:12 lardman|home: I just call updateCenter from my C++ code passing the coordinates....I could just pass one more Oct 14 17:59:30 fcrochik: could I get a special version where center and radius of multiple circles can be entered via textinput box? Oct 14 18:00:03 fcrochik: basically a test version of your final thing :-D Oct 14 18:00:06 ah I see, I thought you were pretending to be the javascript location extension (or however it's called) Oct 14 18:00:34 but yeah, you could do that and draw some sort of extra transparent circle I guess Oct 14 18:00:55 Doc: Of course you can: http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/amex/bomb/sfeature/blastmap.html Oct 14 18:01:02 lardman|home: that was my first idea but then I realized that didn't have any point on going that way... in fact, I heard from the webkit people that if this is what you want you can just download the latest version of the code and will work out of the box Oct 14 18:01:03 fcrochik: I'd need that for a very special GSM based postioning project Oct 14 18:01:07 hey Oct 14 18:01:38 Oh no you cannot any more: they removed the applet =((( Oct 14 18:01:39 ssh traffic is being monitored in my school lately Oct 14 18:01:40 DocScrutinizer51: I assume you probably would like to save the information cross sessions, no? Oct 14 18:02:10 so like i dont want my emails to automatically send and recieve Oct 14 18:02:18 fcrochik: not really Oct 14 18:02:34 but i accidently press accept wrong certificates Oct 14 18:02:46 how can i rectify Oct 14 18:02:57 mc_teo: they... monitor your ssh traffic? Oct 14 18:02:59 fcrochik: http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/openmoko-kernel/2008-June/002987.html Oct 14 18:03:01 how Oct 14 18:03:12 man-in-the-middle? Oct 14 18:03:52 fcrochik: why doesn#t that work in the current webkit? Oct 14 18:04:19 kerio: well i think so Oct 14 18:04:20 mc_teo: do you mean ssl? Oct 14 18:04:31 probably Oct 14 18:04:38 i used to ssh tunnel alot Oct 14 18:04:41 DocScrutinizer51: adding to the map is a very simple javascript call .... the trick is creating a nice dialog for you so you can enter coordinates... another simple idea would be to just point to a differnet html page that you can add a simple form and call a javascript there.... what do you think? Oct 14 18:04:55 so i think they are trying to stop that Oct 14 18:05:04 mc_teo: haha what Oct 14 18:05:15 the point of ssh is that you can't do that because of keys Oct 14 18:05:20 so you know that something is wrong Oct 14 18:05:23 because, you know, ssh tells you Oct 14 18:05:25 with big letters Oct 14 18:05:29 uh, they can block ssh, but the odds that they could perform a man in the middle attack on ssh are extremely low -- especially if they aren't specifically targetting you Oct 14 18:05:48 lardman|home: the current (official release) of webkit does not implement the location.... I can forward you the e-mail I got if you want Oct 14 18:05:58 well i get like invaid certs if viewing a https page Oct 14 18:06:07 however if you mean ssl, it is very much so possible to do a man in the middle attack Oct 14 18:06:15 yeah, that's ssl Oct 14 18:06:17 fcrochik: TA is radius of circle (TA-1 * 550 = inner radius of ring, TA * 550 = outer radius) the gauss krueger coords are plain geopos Oct 14 18:06:18 fcrochik: no not to worry, was just curious Oct 14 18:06:19 and iirc the emails check through ssl Oct 14 18:06:28 yes Oct 14 18:06:32 yeah, email is either unencrypted or ssl Oct 14 18:06:46 and it prompts me to allow invalid certs Oct 14 18:06:54 i pressed allow by accident Oct 14 18:06:54 fcrochik: any API I can understand and somewhat handle is fine for me Oct 14 18:07:02 hmmm Oct 14 18:07:03 ieatlint: emails are crypted with gpg Oct 14 18:07:04 RIGHT? Oct 14 18:07:06 so how can i remove that cert Oct 14 18:07:27 kerio: no, rot13 Oct 14 18:07:54 mc_teo, look under Applications -> Settings -> Certificate manager Oct 14 18:07:56 mc_teo: so there's a certificate manager Oct 14 18:07:58 if the encryption is effective, would they still be able to get my email and pass Oct 14 18:07:59 yeah Oct 14 18:08:02 ieatlint, twice, for extra security Oct 14 18:08:03 DocScrutinizer51: are you just trying to plot those coordinates and get a print screen? Oct 14 18:08:10 mc_teo: yes Oct 14 18:08:10 yes Oct 14 18:08:15 lol @rot13 Oct 14 18:08:31 so no need for the app... I will just give you a html page, would that work? Oct 14 18:08:39 fcrochik: a map with some circles of given center and radius Oct 14 18:08:52 sure, fine Oct 14 18:08:52 mc_teo: so scroll through the list of certs -- any certs from untrusted sources will have a red line with them Oct 14 18:09:21 hi guys Oct 14 18:09:23 I need multiple circles though, in one map Oct 14 18:09:27 it's a big bloody list and I cannot see the self-signed certs I know I added manually Oct 14 18:09:47 yeah Oct 14 18:09:53 hrm, yeah, i've never had to do this :P Oct 14 18:09:53 i looked at that before Oct 14 18:10:06 also, it appears you can't remove certs from that list... which seems very wrong Oct 14 18:10:16 I think it only lists authorities Oct 14 18:10:16 iirc, its called netsupport Oct 14 18:10:43 yeah, but i should be able to untrust authorities .. like the ones in china Oct 14 18:10:45 #fail Oct 14 18:11:13 perhaps you import a one you made yourself Oct 14 18:11:21 so you can find that Oct 14 18:11:25 mc_teo: so are we talking a website, or the built-in email client on the phone? Oct 14 18:11:32 see where theyre stored Oct 14 18:11:42 ieatlint: built in email client Oct 14 18:11:45 DocScrutinizer51: a little harder than I thought.... google maps just implement polygons ...no circles...so I will need to create a polygon out of the circle...back to sin/cos :) Oct 14 18:12:26 a circle is a polygon, no? Oct 14 18:12:33 just a 1sided one Oct 14 18:12:48 not exactly, in our universe Oct 14 18:12:55 mc_teo: depends on how you depend a polygon...generally no Oct 14 18:13:04 mc_teo: i might try re-adding the email account on your phone and hope it prompts again Oct 14 18:13:19 well i suppose poly means many Oct 14 18:13:45 yes, and gon refers to a straight line Oct 14 18:14:27 DocScrutinizer51: how do you convert gauss-krueger to lat/long? Oct 14 18:14:34 where straight is defined as shortest connection between 2 points Oct 14 18:14:52 errr, there are converters in the net for that Oct 14 18:15:12 (guas krueger -> lat/lon) Oct 14 18:15:56 DocScrutinizer51: any reason why you just don't dig in into the javascript? it seems that it is all that you need... Oct 14 18:16:28 just one: I don't know JS :-D Oct 14 18:16:28 DocScrutinizer: sorry, I'm a bit late to this conversation, but what's your problem? Oct 14 18:17:37 Oh FFS. Got a 500 errpr, but all you need to know is in the URL; http://drippler.com/nokia_n900/could-nokia%e2%80%99s-first-meego-device-be-the-n900/ Oct 14 18:17:54 DocScrutinizer51: a very good one indeed! I will give you something to start with Oct 14 18:19:09 http://www.tatukgis.de/tg_calculator.php <- gauss-krueger->lat/lon (windoze :-( ) Oct 14 18:20:25 http://www.hans-adelt.de/hans/gps.html#P8 Oct 14 18:21:07 hey Jaffa Oct 14 18:21:07 windoze *and* german Oct 14 18:21:40 drippler's not far from the truth, is drip feeding down my fast connection Oct 14 18:22:01 anyways Oct 14 18:22:14 http://calc.gknavigation.de/ <- browser app Oct 14 18:22:14 since your slightly more active now Oct 14 18:22:27 samba-common wont install Oct 14 18:22:36 DocScrutinizer51: what is the radius in? meters? Oct 14 18:22:42 it gave a invalid postinst file Oct 14 18:22:57 fcrochik: preferably Oct 14 18:23:26 TA=1 means 0 so i had a look at it and it had ^Ms at every newline char Oct 14 18:23:41 mc_teo: /bin/bash rather than sh? Oct 14 18:23:53 ah Oct 14 18:24:00 so i deleted them, but now it says it cant find the command ucfr Oct 14 18:24:22 lardman|home: windows line endings, i think Oct 14 18:24:57 yep Oct 14 18:25:47 where did you get this package? Oct 14 18:25:50 i have ucf installed Oct 14 18:26:25 lardman|home: im just apt'n it Oct 14 18:26:34 from extras-* Oct 14 18:26:36 ? Oct 14 18:26:58 well i have testing and devel enabled, so i dont know which Oct 14 18:26:59 Venemo: you found the link to my ML post in chan backscroll? Oct 14 18:27:10 hmm, never heard of ucf on-device Oct 14 18:27:19 got to go, bbiab Oct 14 18:27:25 DocScrutinizer: umm I wasn't here when you posted the link Oct 14 18:27:39 np, http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/openmoko-kernel/2008-June/002987.html Oct 14 18:29:12 * MohammadAG pokes DocScrutinizer http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=63802 Oct 14 18:29:43 * DocScrutinizer sighs as there's that t.m.o thing in there again Oct 14 18:29:52 DocScrutinizer: hm, I haven't worked with mapping stuff yet Oct 14 18:29:59 DocScrutinizer: although it seems interesting Oct 14 18:30:06 DocScrutinizer: how does JS come into the picture? Oct 14 18:30:19 WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Oct 14 18:30:55 ~nuke MohammadAG for pointing doc at it Oct 14 18:30:56 * infobot prepares 100 missle silos, and targets them at MohammadAG for pointing doc at it ... B☢☢M! Oct 14 18:31:28 Venemo: fcrochik is about to draw circles on a google map Oct 14 18:32:09 lol Oct 14 18:32:25 DocScrutinizer: seems to be a fair enough solution Oct 14 18:33:14 DocScrutinizer51: done! Oct 14 18:33:35 DocScrutinizer: lol at the TMO link... isn't this the guy who you told he was totally disqualified for this? Oct 14 18:33:35 for first approach to check what's really going on, yes it's nice to have. If we'd turn this into a real app or lib or whatever, we'd use trigonometry for calculating the real position Oct 14 18:33:48 Venemo: yes Oct 14 18:33:56 DocScrutinizer: omg Oct 14 18:34:01 DocScrutinizer51: http://www.crochik.com/docscrutinizer.html Oct 14 18:34:38 fcrochik: you're awesome! many thanks, and sorry I have to run right now - bbl, ttyl Oct 14 18:34:50 DocScrutinizer51: let me know if you need any changes Oct 14 18:36:41 Hi Oct 14 18:37:16 fcrochik: radius seems doesn't work Oct 14 18:37:27 DocScrutinizer51: just fixed.... Oct 14 18:37:30 :) Oct 14 18:37:38 DocScrutinizer51: refresh the page Oct 14 18:38:12 if you download the source code for the page you can run it locally and change the details...like color, ... Oct 14 18:38:44 can I get an inner radius, or just xor the color so a second circle with lower radius would remove the first one's center Oct 14 18:38:58 fcrochik: thanks pal :-D Oct 14 18:39:49 DocScrutinizer51: now you may be asking too much.... don't know if google maps will allow anything like that... Oct 14 18:40:12 np, I'll just change the colors accordingly Oct 14 18:40:21 DocScrutinizer51: you can control the transparency of each element but don't think you can make holes Oct 14 18:40:23 really nice and ok Oct 14 18:41:07 DocScrutinizer51: it should be pretty straight forward to change colors and transparency ...and you can add some extra fields to the form if needed...let me know if you need any help... Oct 14 18:41:27 timeless, you're on the hotel accommodation page twice. Oct 14 18:41:44 I'll use a small circle with 100% saturation, and a larger transparent one with 20% Oct 14 18:42:10 DocScrutinizer51: have fun... I have to go... be back later Oct 14 18:45:25 so any ideas about installing samba-common Oct 14 18:45:33 smbclient needs it Oct 14 18:49:37 ? Oct 14 18:51:37 OK. So, I bought an N900 :) who wants to buy my now-obsolete N810? it has the normal SD hacked back w a 32GB card... Oct 14 18:56:24 1.3 will come out fast , compare to 1.2 Oct 14 18:58:05 what new features are there? Oct 14 19:00:31 not idea , only some new boot thing for make easy/available meego/maemo dual boot Oct 14 19:00:45 chx: Congrats, and no. Oct 14 19:01:26 i'd like to install pr1.3 already so i could dualboot :P Oct 14 19:03:26 ~pr1.3 Oct 14 19:03:28 pr1.3 is probably a ban'able subject now..... will probably be out in 1/0 days Oct 14 19:03:59 I like my N810, but I doubt I'll be using it again. Oct 14 19:04:06 And the touch screen is dead. Oct 14 19:07:02 is anyone interested in where to buy a refurbished N900 below $300? no advertisment, just i am shocked i was able to find it this cheap. Oct 14 19:07:24 alterego: it has a known cpu and a way to load arbitrary code in a safe way Oct 14 19:07:27 why wouldn't you use it Oct 14 19:07:48 kerio: no time for toy projects :P Oct 14 19:07:56 you're a sad, sad man :( Oct 14 19:08:29 Tell me about it :( Oct 14 19:19:52 I don't get it, mmcblk0p1 on /home/user/MyDos .. Oct 14 19:19:55 ~MyDocs Oct 14 19:20:07 Oh, actually .. Oct 14 19:33:54 How if mmcblk0p1 is the /home directory Oct 14 19:34:06 When it's my mmc card? Oct 14 19:35:34 I believe mmc is mmcblk1p1 Oct 14 19:36:30 err I meant mmc as in microsd Oct 14 19:36:53 That's what I want Oct 14 19:36:56 though the terming is quite ambiguous Oct 14 19:37:50 Erm, so how come when I remove the mmc card mmcblk0 dissapears from /proc/partitions Oct 14 19:39:16 it shouldn't.. wait are you referring to n900? Oct 14 19:39:40 Yes Oct 14 19:40:27 it shouldn't, mmcblk0 are n900's native storage points Oct 14 19:40:39 Something isn't right then Oct 14 19:40:47 What does your /proc/partitions look like? Oct 14 19:40:47 you're not using meego are you? Oct 14 19:40:51 No Oct 14 19:42:38 http://pastebin.com/dYz2tVtX Oct 14 19:43:21 check the corresponding ticket - there's some mess with mmc0 vs mmc1 in maemo Oct 14 19:44:00 Oh dear, something is very fucked with mine. Oct 14 19:44:19 it could just be udev issue but it doesn't really matter I suppose Oct 14 19:44:22 originally SD is mmc0 and eMMC is mmc1, then at some point during boot it's renamed Oct 14 19:44:25 DocScrutinizer51: so much so that /proc/partitions and mount report the opposite? Oct 14 19:44:41 Oh, okay Oct 14 19:44:43 possibly Oct 14 19:44:52 lol mine is screwed yours isn't :D Oct 14 19:45:12 ls -l /dev/mmcblk0 Oct 14 19:45:13 then again I don't have any SD inside that bay right now Oct 14 19:45:44 Ah, so the device nodes are wrong too. Oct 14 19:45:45 ffs Oct 14 19:46:02 I just want to know what to dd to! Oct 14 19:46:35 I'm looking for a pastebin that allows something like going to pastebin.com/foo/ - where foo is arbitrary, and has seperate virtual pastebins. Oct 14 19:46:40 Is there such a thing? Oct 14 19:46:49 SpeedEvil: not that I know of. Oct 14 19:47:31 https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=2747 Oct 14 19:47:32 Bug 2747: inconsistent mmc device naming at boot time when one card is missing Oct 14 19:47:46 So, /dev/mmcblk1 -> mmcblk0 Oct 14 19:48:10 So, /dev/mmcblk1 is my microsd card Oct 14 19:48:18 So I can dd to that. Oct 14 19:48:51 mmcblk0 would be yer microsd if you said when you removed microsd and mmcblk0 disappeared Oct 14 19:49:39 hatake_kakashi: no, because mmcblk0 is what the kernel thinks it is, but the file under /dev is actually mmcblk1, if you look at the device node major/minor Oct 14 19:50:18 SpeedEvil, you can have a private pastebin, such as http://foo.pastebin.com Oct 14 19:51:22 alterego, well I only have one when I did ls -al /dev/mmcblk? Oct 14 19:52:12 again I don't have any microsd in bay so you need to consider that.. I used to have one but that microsd card eventually died (can't complain, it was a freebie that I found) Oct 14 20:08:26 hatake_kakashi: and the key is, what is the name of your device under /dev ;) Oct 14 20:08:56 brw-rw---- 1 root floppy 179, 0 1970-01-01 10:00 /dev/mmcblk0 Oct 14 20:09:08 heh, the mmcblk0/1 issue delayed development of nitdroid a bit Oct 14 20:09:26 they kept trying to boot from mmcblk1 when at boot time it's mmcblk0 Oct 14 20:09:43 btw, is there an alternative to nitdroid that can simply run android apps in maemo? Oct 14 20:09:49 RST38h, no Oct 14 20:09:49 Yeah, so /proc/partitions should be ignored as it's backward :) Oct 14 20:09:52 (or forward) Oct 14 20:10:04 unless you get a chroot image, and kexec a 2.6.35(?) kernel Oct 14 20:10:20 you could call it Easy Nitdroid Oct 14 20:10:27 but doesn't android lack X? Oct 14 20:10:34 Hmm Oct 14 20:10:37 MohammadAG: indeed Oct 14 20:10:49 the Xephyr method would fail then Oct 14 20:10:52 alterego, lol I'd have nfc Oct 14 20:11:20 Meanwhile: http://www.pnj.com/article/20101013/NEWS01/101013006/Boy-watches-in-horror-as-gator-eats-pet-turtle-he-gave-Gulfarium Oct 14 20:11:53 Mohammad:I thought more along the lines of running a copy of Dalvik VM under Maemo Oct 14 20:12:03 RST38h: lol! Oct 14 20:12:18 it sounds like more work then it seems Oct 14 20:12:53 Well, if WeTab can do it .. Oct 14 20:13:12 not to mention one can run into trouble with Oracle whom recently filed a copyright infringement against Google Oct 14 20:15:01 who gives a crap about Oracle :P Oct 14 20:15:22 I do, their CEO is funny Oct 14 20:16:15 much like Apple's CEO Oct 14 20:16:16 SO FUNNEEEEH Oct 14 20:18:05 no, they are differently funny Oct 14 20:18:11 but, anyway, sleep. Oct 14 20:18:22 so much to stay rich, make all these patents to claim that its yours, wait for the fuckers to come onboard and then sue the living hell out of them.. reap extra cash Oct 14 20:19:41 hatake_kakashi: :D Oct 14 20:20:52 it is very much like that.. one of microsoft's joint founders recently made a court filing for IP theft when he himself is already a billionaire and donated a small portion of that wad of cash to charity Oct 14 20:20:55 night RST38h Oct 14 20:22:05 talk about sleeping dragon attack pose -_-.. lay mines, wait for enemy to get victimised and blow them away Oct 14 20:25:10 could someone help me? Oct 14 20:25:15 https://garage.maemo.org/builder/fremantle/sticky-notes_0.3.0/armel.build.log.FAILED.txt Oct 14 20:25:24 "dpkg-shlibdeps: error: no dependency information found for /usr/lib/libq-extras.so.1 (used by debian/sticky-notes/opt/sticky-notes/sticky-notes)." Oct 14 20:25:33 it builds on my machine in Scratchbox correctly Oct 14 20:25:49 more interestingly, on my machine, this error message is only a warning Oct 14 20:25:54 but I still don't understand it Oct 14 20:27:21 missing qmake.conf? *shrugs* Oct 14 20:29:15 Hrm, what's the command that shows xwindow ids? Oct 14 20:29:15 Venemo: I spend the last few days batling something similar because my lib didn't have the shlibdep info. Did you create libq-extras.so.1? Oct 14 20:29:56 xev? Oct 14 20:30:36 xwininfo actually :) Oct 14 20:31:28 fcrochik: umm... well, I dunno Oct 14 20:32:30 fcrochik: yes, it exists Oct 14 20:33:00 Venemo: I had created a qt lib and didn't have the dh_makeshlibs on my rules... when I tried to create compile an application on autobuilder that depended on it I got the exact same error.... Oct 14 20:33:22 fcrochik: hm... so put dh_makeshlibs into my rules file? Oct 14 20:33:25 fcrochik: thanks Oct 14 20:33:29 fcrochik: where should I put it? Oct 14 20:33:46 Venemo: for the lib! not app...on the rules file Oct 14 20:34:12 umm Oct 14 20:34:28 Venemo: that is why I asked if you had created the lib... if you didn't your only option is to disable the automatic dependencies on your app Oct 14 20:34:35 fcrochik: http://vcs.maemo.org/svn/q-extras/q-extras/debian/rules Oct 14 20:34:53 fcrochik: it's there but seems to be commented out... I dunno why though Oct 14 20:34:59 so uncommenting it will make this work? Oct 14 20:35:03 yes Oct 14 20:35:10 k Oct 14 20:36:49 Venemo: I created a page with my scribbled notes on creating the qt lib... http://maemo.crochik.com/qt-development/packaging-a-lib-for-maemo Oct 14 20:37:06 fcrochik: you know, the ridiculous thing about it is that this is going to be the 6th attempt on my part to make it work Oct 14 20:37:48 Venemo: don't feel bad...it took me at least as many... and I only figured out after getting help from Attila, Daniel and Graham Oct 14 20:38:16 Venemo: the good news is that on the second time all seems to make sense! like they say: hind sight vision is 20-20 Oct 14 20:39:04 fcrochik: anyways, thanks for your help Oct 14 20:39:16 fcrochik: without you, I'd probably never would have figured it out Oct 14 20:39:30 Venemo: you are welcome. Oct 14 20:39:52 hello here Oct 14 20:40:18 i fnished to install maemo 2008 in my n770 Oct 14 20:41:06 but i tryed to install unionfs but not working in this kernel Oct 14 20:41:31 anyone can help me for get more ram space in the n770 Oct 14 20:41:37 Who purchased the N8 today? Oct 14 20:41:50 i am n770 Oct 14 20:41:54 ;) Oct 14 20:41:55 fcrochik: any idea about this? dpkg-gencontrol: warning: unknown substitution variable ${misc:Depends} Oct 14 20:42:34 Venemo: I get on all my qt projects...it is safe to ignore.... I think it is not used Oct 14 20:42:55 Venemo: or probably even to remove from the control file but I have never tried Oct 14 20:42:59 Or sorry, wrong channel... Sorry guys Oct 14 20:43:00 fcrochik: well then I think I'll remove the ${misc:Depends} from the control file Oct 14 20:43:05 DrGrov: np Oct 14 20:45:36 SpeedEvil: the box you got an account at now has apache, I can create a vhost for you if you want Oct 14 20:46:18 naah - it was a passing thought - I found another way. Oct 14 20:46:22 Thanks! Oct 14 20:50:54 SpeedEvil: I just added horizontal accuracy to my app and it seems to be very unstable while stationary... is this normal? Oct 14 20:52:00 Yes. Oct 14 20:52:02 Get: Oct 14 20:52:29 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ImZTwYwCug Oct 14 20:52:30 err Oct 14 20:52:31 not that Oct 14 20:52:58 http://maemo.org/packages/view/location-test-gui/ Oct 14 20:52:59 that Oct 14 20:53:01 it's useful Oct 14 20:53:01 SpeedEvil: it goes from 10m to 80m and anything in between in seconds Oct 14 20:53:04 yes Oct 14 20:53:08 that's not atypical Oct 14 20:53:40 SpeedEvil: I guess there goes my dream of mapping a grocerie store :) Oct 14 20:54:13 Indoors is typically very variable due to reflections. Oct 14 20:54:16 fcrochik: should I wait for the repository to import the library before I try to build the app? Oct 14 20:54:40 Venemo: yes.. Oct 14 20:55:17 fcrochik: k Oct 14 20:55:19 Venemo: probably a good idea once done is to update your scratchbox, install the package and try to build on your pc...will save few attempts Oct 14 20:55:41 Venemo: did you create a "release" and a "dev" package? Oct 14 20:55:46 fcrochik: yes Oct 14 20:55:56 Hrm, 15.7G of user data to backup, this could take some time. Oct 14 20:56:03 and I also always installs the .debs onto my scratchbox Oct 14 20:56:19 Venemo: that was the worst for me.... I was ready to give up! Oct 14 20:56:43 fcrochik: it creates a "q-extras" and a "q-extras-dev" package Oct 14 20:57:12 fcrochik: it was done by qwerty12 though, because I'm a noob at this stuff Oct 14 20:57:22 Venemo: do you mind me asking what the q-extras does? I am always looking for more "toys" :) Oct 14 20:58:53 fcrochik: well, it contains some reusable things that I created :) Oct 14 20:59:26 fcrochik: for one, a solution to open homescreen widgets from inside an application Oct 14 20:59:57 fcrochik: and a way to show e-mail/sms style notifications from a Qt app Oct 14 21:00:02 Venemo: I was thinking about getting all the "basic maemo5" stuff into a lib but gave up... I can only imagine that will make it impossible for any application to make to extras because you won't get the lib promoted Oct 14 21:00:23 fcrochik: a lib is promoted once an app depending on the lib is promoted Oct 14 21:00:33 fcrochik: this is what X-Fade says Oct 14 21:00:58 Venemo: sounds promossing... one of these days I will have to take you on the offer to make the mycontacts widget behave more like the other widgets Oct 14 21:02:06 Venemo: so it is not bad.... just half impossible.... My last release of mycontacts has been there for almost 20days and hasn't received one single vote... almost 100K downloads but not vote! It drives me crazy! Oct 14 21:02:22 fcrochik: well, maybe you should ask people to vote Oct 14 21:02:34 fcrochik: on IRC, for one Oct 14 21:02:59 Yeah, if you want votes you need to ask people to do it, on tmo or here, blog about it, ask mates :) Oct 14 21:03:11 pretty frustrating to spend your time on this rather than coding eh fcrochik Oct 14 21:04:04 Venemo: is is always an option but I still thing that the process can be improved... I don't want to have to bug people all the time.... I still think the best idea would be to integrate appdownloaded+fap!!! :) Oct 14 21:04:28 fcrochik: well I don't use fap... :) Oct 14 21:05:44 Venemo: I don't necessary mean FAP... just having an application manager that includes rating, reminders (and wouldn't hurt to be a little quicker).... I think the FAP interface could use some TLC but it works pretty good... what don't you like about it? Oct 14 21:06:03 fcrochik: about fap? Oct 14 21:06:09 Venemo: yes Oct 14 21:06:14 fcrochik: you're right that the voting should be doable from an app Oct 14 21:06:22 fcrochik: I dunno, probably the attitude of the author Oct 14 21:07:06 I don't know who the author is.... Oct 14 21:07:24 fcrochik: I don't recall it either, but I talked to him on TMO Oct 14 21:08:00 fcrochik: I asked him if he would contribute to HAM the way he made fap faster Oct 14 21:08:11 Venemo: I don't blame you...from time to time I also want to just give up on the whole thing... You spend your time and then have to hear some very silly things Oct 14 21:08:36 Venemo: I remember reading this post (didn't remember was yours). Oct 14 21:09:11 fcrochik: appdownloader has exactly those features. Oct 14 21:09:28 fcrochik: well, I don't blame him, HAM's code is a big mess. But it would be the right thing to do to fix that one app with community effort instead of every guy and his dog making his own app manager Oct 14 21:09:43 * Jaffa needs to find the fapman author (or source) and see if it prefers -devel over other repos with the same binary Oct 14 21:10:33 Jaffa: oh yeah! I love it (appdownloader)... a few minor tweaks, being able to install software and being able to access extras-testing, an automatic reminder like "you installed XXX one week ago would you like to rate it" and we would have a winner for me Oct 14 21:11:41 tried kisstester? Oct 14 21:12:14 Venemo: I know what you mean but I need to give him some credit because I would not know where to start with the hildon app manager... Qt was my way to get into linux Oct 14 21:12:26 fcrochik: for me too :) Oct 14 21:12:35 fcrochik: that's why I said I don't really blame him Oct 14 21:13:43 nidO: Yes. And I think is great idea... but again it is one more tool! I, and assume everybody else, would prefer to have one single tool to deal with packages.... I hate that my packages get stuck so from time to time I try to vote for the applications I know that are seating there... but just the fact that I need to remember to go ther does not help.... Oct 14 21:14:37 fcrochik: btw, I never got the chance to congratulate you for the app dev competition :) Oct 14 21:14:39 and i still kinda don't like Qt Oct 14 21:14:50 fcrochik - I think half the problem with mycontacts is probably that it's in non-free, I imagine a lot of people testing only tend to look at free as traditionally there've hardly been any packages go through wityh no source Oct 14 21:15:42 Venemo: congratulations to you too! Of course we never had a chance for the first place :( Oct 14 21:15:49 fcrochik: yeah Oct 14 21:16:08 fcrochik: QBW is a win... sorta swiss army knife Oct 14 21:16:14 fcrochik: why I uninstalled MyContacts is because it is incompatible with ringtoned (not sure whether you fixed that yet) Oct 14 21:16:59 nidO: I could start the discussion about the non-free x free but the truth is that I just started it as non-free because didn't have time to fight the autobuilder.... Oct 14 21:18:46 nidO: Of course I would not mind one day finding a way to pay my bills writing maemo software! Oct 14 21:18:51 well its not a debate so much on the rights and wrongs of free v non-free, its purely that the QA list can be viewed either as everything, free, or nonfree, and I imagine most people just tend to look at the free list only Oct 14 21:19:00 fcrochik: Well, some people would argue that if you can't spare the time to help the community to provide source (because one day you *will* be gone), why should they spend their time helping test your app? Oct 14 21:19:32 fcrochik: back to the previous subject, I did download and look at HAM's code, and it is indeed utter crap Oct 14 21:19:44 fcrochik: I think there's place for some optimalizations though Oct 14 21:20:21 Jaffa: I would hope that by now people realize that I am willing to help the community... and even more that mycontacts free or non-free helps the community every day Oct 14 21:21:17 fcrochik, whats your app again? Oct 14 21:21:29 lcuk, his app is MyContacts Oct 14 21:22:24 hm Oct 14 21:22:26 Venemo: I have to wonder if is worth fixing it just because was the original one... I have to say that I would much rather invest time on a Qt based application ... if not because is what I can understand because unfortunately is the future Oct 14 21:23:21 lcuk: mycontacts, wake on lan, macuco2, geeps... and I packaged libircclient-qt and communi this week Oct 14 21:23:32 fcrochik: on MeeGo perhaps. but MeeGo already has its own Qt-based (even more: MeeGo Touch based) app manager (I guess) Oct 14 21:23:50 hm Oct 14 21:24:00 what may be the cause of my N900's random reboots? Oct 14 21:24:42 what does /proc/bootreason say? Oct 14 21:24:50 * wmarone rages at fedora Oct 14 21:25:08 * SpeedEvil rages against the dying of the light. Oct 14 21:25:12 wmarone: sw_rst Oct 14 21:25:15 * SpeedEvil plugs the light back in. Oct 14 21:25:54 Venemo: I don't know that I believe that we will ever update our n900 to meego but if there is a way to benefit from meego is to backport qt applications to maemo... Oct 14 21:27:03 * cehteh isnt even sure if he wants to upgrade to 1.3 Oct 14 21:27:03 fcrochik: well, this also brings up the question of deb vs rpm Oct 14 21:27:21 only a much improved modest would make me happy Oct 14 21:27:43 improved = replaced* Oct 14 21:28:02 cehteh: did you check MohammadAG's community SSU repo? Oct 14 21:28:03 whatever, lets make it short: a working email client Oct 14 21:28:11 Venemo: i saied *much* :) Oct 14 21:28:20 cehteh: it has a newer modest, works quite nicely for me Oct 14 21:28:46 imap idle? .. subscriptions, threaded mails, notify only on selected folders? Oct 14 21:29:11 Venemo: yes... I didn't say it would be easy :) but if we have the source code for a qt application we can create the package... Now that I was able to get the first applicatrion that I didn't create package I have more hope that is not that difficult :( Oct 14 21:29:18 the fact that nokia intentionally disabled imap idle without simply making it a configurable option utterly baffles me Oct 14 21:29:20 cehteh: I don't think so... but it has a bunch of bug fixes Oct 14 21:29:38 well bug fixes comes next to usability :) Oct 14 21:29:56 currently its mostly unuseable to me, i dont even see bugs Oct 14 21:30:59 fcrochik: :) Oct 14 21:31:12 hm Oct 14 21:31:27 I dropped the N900 today (accidentally)... on concrete Oct 14 21:31:37 might that be related to the random rebooting thing? Oct 14 21:31:44 nidO: the underlying lib has some problems with power-saving and imap idle Oct 14 21:31:53 it hasn't really done such a thing before, so I'm afraid Oct 14 21:32:23 Venemo: there are no much moving parts, but the pcb might have a crack or some soldering came loose Oct 14 21:32:31 that would be really bad Oct 14 21:32:45 cehteh: "it drains battery" isnt really a reason to prevent it from being selectable atall imo. there are countless ways of draining the device's battery faster than you can blink, I dont see why nokia chose to cripple the mail client in yet another way just to prevent one of them Oct 14 21:33:18 cehteh: or it might be some other issue... a reflash is overdue anyways Oct 14 21:33:39 cehteh: I certainly hope for the latter Oct 14 21:33:39 oh no, yahoo.com is down Oct 14 21:33:53 nidO: well yes, but implement it in a good way would be the solution Oct 14 21:34:07 funny: out of the blue just saw a message "the email client closed unexpectedly" (or something to the same effect)... I was not even using the phone Oct 14 21:34:09 fcrochik: anyways, HAM could be made actually usable with a few clever modifications Oct 14 21:34:32 ofc, thats ideal, and disabling it entirely is the worst solution really, with having it an option, despite being a power drain, being the obvious middle ground (to me at least) Oct 14 21:34:48 Nokia UI people hate options. Oct 14 21:34:53 Venemo: but what about the features missing? I would assume we would not be able to combine it with appdownloader to get the comments, votes, thumbnails, ... Oct 14 21:35:00 id rather be moaning that I have a functioning mail client but that means I have to recharge more often, than having a mail client I simply cant use for mail. Oct 14 21:35:41 well next comes that it notifies for each and every junk mail, my mail filter works fine sorting mails in about a dozen folders and i only want to be notifed when mail arrives on some few important folders Oct 14 21:36:00 modest is really made for people getting less than 5 mails per day Oct 14 21:36:14 (and no spam) Oct 14 21:36:45 fcrochik: what is appdownloader written in? Oct 14 21:37:53 Venemo: Qt....that is why FAP+appdownloader makes sense... Oct 14 21:38:05 Venemo: at least I think it is... :) Oct 14 21:38:18 fcrochik: haha! Oct 14 21:38:23 fcrochik: it isn't that hard :) Oct 14 21:38:32 Venemo: what? Oct 14 21:38:34 fcrochik: did you know that Stiky Notes also calls GTK code? Oct 14 21:39:00 Venemo: never had the pleasure to look under the hood :) Oct 14 21:39:25 fcrochik: of yourse it is not possible to embed Qt and GTK widgets into each other Oct 14 21:39:34 fcrochik: even if it is, I never bothered Oct 14 21:39:34 Venemo: I have some "foreign" objects on my code too but I can't say I like them.... Oct 14 21:39:54 fcrochik: but in fact, Qt and GTK windows can be made transient to each other Oct 14 21:40:07 fcrochik: in the end, both libs wrap Xlib, so no surprises there Oct 14 21:40:12 Venemo: just the idea gives me the chills :) Oct 14 21:40:53 fcrochik: for example, the color and font selector dialogs, and also the about box of Sticky Notes are from Hildon-Extras Oct 14 21:40:53 Venemo: I have to say that I am too spoiled with c++ code.... just the very very GTK function names scares me :) Oct 14 21:41:06 fcrochik: yeah, I know what you mean :) :D Oct 14 21:41:26 Venemo: that is why they work! I use the qt color dialog and it is just wrong! Oct 14 21:41:59 fcrochik: I wrote a Qt wrapper for Hildon-Extras for exactly this purpose Oct 14 21:42:07 there is more than one qt color dialog, be careful which you are mentioning (I think anyway..) Oct 14 21:42:10 On this note: are we (maemo community) be able to update the qt packages by ourselves? Oct 14 21:42:39 fcrochik: you need to call a single method that returns a QColor... you can integrate it in less than 5 minutes Oct 14 21:43:00 fcrochik: [fremantle]: sticky-notes 0.3.0 OK‏ -> thanks for your help again :) Oct 14 21:43:24 fcrochik, technically if the ssu gets going, down the line after pr1.3 then its possible Oct 14 21:43:54 lcuk: I think I am using the default one... at any rate is a known bug that was fixed... the problem is that we don't get new Qt libraries until PR1.3.... if ever....that is why I asked if we as a community can just generate new qt packages from the repository and replace the "old" ones... I dont think we can...can we? Oct 14 21:44:12 and afaik some of the qt packages may have specific meta packages to allow out of band updating anyway Oct 14 21:44:32 lcuk: but qt packages are on the nokia repositories...arent they? Oct 14 21:44:43 Venemo: glad to hear! Oct 14 21:44:51 fcrochik: see this doc: http://hildon-extras.garage.maemo.org/reference/current/hildon-extras-qt-he-wrapper.html#QtHeWrapper-showHeSimpleColorDialog Oct 14 21:44:58 fcrochik, look at how MohammadAG51 has been starting things like replacing hildon and modest builds, same principle applies Oct 14 21:45:25 Venemo: cool! Oct 14 21:45:38 fcrochik, since you can replace the kernel, I am guessing it should be possible to replace anything else too ;) Oct 14 21:46:04 errr, I notice a statistically significant increase in mentioning of PR1.3 during last few days - what's the reason for this? Oct 14 21:46:46 lcuk: yes... the truth is that we probably can just create parallel packages that replace the "official" ones... It is just how easy we make to the "end user"..... Oct 14 21:46:49 fcrochik: I recommend HeSimpleColorDialog. It can also have an advanced mode in which the user can select an arbitrary color Oct 14 21:47:37 Venemo: now that you have your library out there I may use it! The color dialog is a very small thing on mycontacts but I hate to know that it doesn't work Oct 14 21:47:37 I still think: Oct 14 21:47:39 fcrochik, this issue is what requires resolving and why even though MohammadAG51 calls his repository the ssu one, its not yet - its merely bleeding edge. Oct 14 21:47:41 ~pr1.3 Oct 14 21:47:42 it has been said that pr1.3 is a ban'able subject now..... will probably be out in 1/0 days Oct 14 21:47:55 fcrochik: the color dialog is not in my library, it's in Q-Extras Oct 14 21:48:01 fcrochik: the color dialog is not in my library, it's in Hildon-Extras** Oct 14 21:48:13 fcrochik: sorry, typoed Oct 14 21:48:33 fcrochik: you may of course use my library too, if you want to :) Oct 14 21:48:39 fcrochik: I hope it works :) Oct 14 21:48:57 fcrochik: about Hildon-Extras, that will 100% work, as there are lots of professional people behind it Oct 14 21:50:55 DocScrutinizer: I don't beleive that, they haven't, they haven't released the sdk and broken everything for 2 months yet Oct 14 21:51:01 fcrochik: mycontacts has another vote now Oct 14 21:51:30 nidO: Thank you! Another...does it mean that it had one? Oct 14 21:51:46 asj_: exactly, so where from comes that sudden popularity for the term PR1.3?? Oct 14 21:51:59 Venemo: is the hildon-extras just the 4 methods or is there more in it? Oct 14 21:52:01 fcrochik: yeah, there was one from 3 days ago Oct 14 21:52:13 fcrochik: haha :) Oct 14 21:52:21 fcrochik: http://wiki.maemo.org/Hildon-Extras Oct 14 21:52:30 DocScrutinizer: there was a blog post yesterday or the day before saying pr1.3 is almost here Oct 14 21:52:34 fcrochik: the 4 methods are the things that I wrote Qt wrappers for :) Oct 14 21:52:38 @MohammadAG : Hey you got a second? Oct 14 21:52:39 pfff Oct 14 21:53:05 fcrochik: it has a whole bunch of other Gtk/Hildon widgets too Oct 14 21:53:22 fcrochik: see the wiki page for pics Oct 14 21:53:59 I can't even bother to find the fist post saying same for PR1.2, seems it was 3 months before the japanese version came down on us Oct 14 21:54:24 Venemo: cool! thank you for the tip! Oct 14 21:55:06 even made engadget, but this started it: http://thenokiablog.com/2010/10/13/nokia-n900-pr13-dual-boot-meego/ afaik, mark guim who is the nokia blog...was just taking a few tidbits and making a store Oct 14 21:55:07 story Oct 14 21:55:50 and then there were at least 2 false assumptions today in this very channel about what PR1.3 will bring us and that's the reason we can't stand it any longer to wait for it... :-/ MEH Oct 14 21:56:43 ~pr1.3 Oct 14 21:56:43 pr1.3 is, like, a ban'able subject now..... will probably be out in 1/0 days Oct 14 21:57:05 DocScrutinizer: she canna take any more captain ;) Oct 14 21:57:30 apt, no, pr1.3 is STILL a ban'able subject, more than ever Oct 14 21:57:31 Can anybody please help me with the optimize N900 script? Oct 14 21:58:16 meh Oct 14 21:58:21 ~pr1.3 Oct 14 21:58:21 STILL a ban'able subject, more than ever Oct 14 22:19:08 friggin blog, not even takes my comments - meh. Anyway what a BS, Stskeeps clearly explained in PR1.3 the kexec bug is fixed but meego switched to uBoot chainloading now - much cleaner and better solution - and completely unrelated to PR1.3 Oct 14 22:19:53 (well, maybe except for the fact they seem to bundle uBoot with a maemo kernel - presumably a PR1.3 version) Oct 14 22:20:26 Hello, can someone recommend me a tiny WYSIWYG html editor which runs in a browser (embedded in html) but with no need for a webserver? Oct 14 22:20:45 I'd expect you can install this right away, no need to wait for any PR1.3 to come - or not Oct 14 22:21:22 so... Oct 14 22:21:25 ~pr1.3 Oct 14 22:21:26 STILL a ban'able subject, more than ever Oct 14 22:21:53 looooool Oct 14 22:22:38 pr1.3 is released? Oct 14 22:22:48 /kickban jacekowski Oct 14 22:23:02 you missed Oct 14 22:23:29 yoe ever heard of intentional near miss Oct 14 22:24:09 fuck yeah 100 points in gta chinatown wars Oct 14 22:31:16 Venemo: I tried to run "apt-get upgrade" and for some reason sticky-notes was "kept back"... Oct 14 22:32:08 fcrochik: what does 'apt-get install sticky-notes' say? Oct 14 22:33:04 sticky-notes? eeeew, hope it's not a saxophone Oct 14 22:33:33 the following extra-packages will be installed: q-extras. the following new packages will be installed: q-extas. the following packages will be upgraded: sticky-notes Oct 14 22:33:58 Venemo: it is like there are two q-extras.... ???? Oct 14 22:35:11 fcrochik: what? Oct 14 22:35:20 DocScrutinizer: it is a note-taking homescreen widget Oct 14 22:35:50 aaaah Oct 14 22:36:21 * DocScrutinizer *loves* homescreen widgets - can slow down and even break the whole machine and nobody ever knows why Oct 14 22:36:24 Venemo: I don't know why is listing the q-extras as "will be installed and also as new package to be installed" Oct 14 22:36:56 fcrochik: try 'apt-get install q-extras' Oct 14 22:37:32 installed 1.0.5 Oct 14 22:37:51 and now upgraded sticky notes Oct 14 22:38:21 Venemo: all good, feel free to creat your own sticky notes! :) Oct 14 22:38:31 eew Oct 14 22:38:42 Have to go but first: new release of geeps with "horizontal accuracy".... Oct 14 22:39:32 fcrofeel tempted :-D Oct 14 22:40:09 * DocScrutinizer waves, but fcrochik doesn't look back Oct 14 22:41:35 * DocScrutinizer fires up HAM, sobbing Oct 14 22:42:50 * DocScrutinizer stares at the whole black screen Oct 14 22:43:49 hey, maybe HAM could display xkcd of the week, while running apt-worker :-P Oct 14 22:43:53 fcrochik: glad you succeeded Oct 14 22:44:15 Venemo: he's goooone Oct 14 22:45:48 no, please don't make HAM any slower Oct 14 22:46:02 have you ever measured how long it takes for microb to open and start rendering a web page? Oct 14 22:46:48 DocScrutinizer: hm, my IRC client didn't show a leave message Oct 14 22:46:51 * DocScrutinizer chokes on mentioning of "phonon" for GeePS Oct 14 22:47:18 my tabexpand suggests there's no fcr.... enamore Oct 14 22:47:22 any* Oct 14 22:48:04 (got "hide join/quit/nickchange") Oct 14 22:53:18 fcrochik Oct 14 22:53:19 Have to go but first: new release of geeps with "horizontal accuracy".... 01:36 Oct 14 22:53:21 *** fcrochik has quit IRC 01:36 Oct 14 22:53:22 DocScrutinizer Oct 14 22:53:24 fcrofeel tempted :-D Oct 14 22:54:15 what is the equivalent of the Unix less command on maemo? (sh: less: not found) Oct 14 22:54:21 http://mg.pov.lt/maemo-irclog/latest.log.html#t2010-10-15T01:36:10 Oct 14 22:54:34 apt-get install less Oct 14 22:55:08 there's nothing like the real less Oct 14 22:55:47 dunno if it's in extras, devel, or tools Oct 14 22:56:14 also: Oct 14 22:56:18 ~messybox Oct 14 22:56:19 messy... err busybox is meant for lean scripting. Regarding all the missing options and immanent limitations (see su) it's not really the interactive shell of choice. A lot of people hate busybox because a lot of system integrators don't understand the difference between busybox and a decent user interactive shell plus unix utils Oct 14 22:56:42 and http://wiki.maemo.org/User:Joerg_rw/tools to the rescue Oct 14 23:01:59 I think less might be available in tools if not it'll be in one of the extras Oct 14 23:02:53 DocScrutinizer, when I get back to England, can you just remind me to use the ambient light sensor to also dim the screen on the calculator - if theres no actual light around then it should dim Oct 14 23:03:03 and bash-setup doesn't do a good job of setting up user with bash when user opted yes for using bash instead Oct 14 23:03:58 lcuk: duh, why would calculator not dim on ALS?? o.O Oct 14 23:04:23 DocScrutinizer, hatake_kakashi: thanks, got it now but only works as root atm. btw: I could not imagine why less is not part of the baselayout of maemo. So far, it was in the baselayout of any linux i came across. Oct 14 23:04:30 DocScrutinizer, I mean the solar cell part - to make it a bit more funnerer Oct 14 23:04:47 andax: see ~messybox Oct 14 23:05:06 aaah Oct 14 23:05:11 lcuk: OK Oct 14 23:05:19 and i need it badly :-) Oct 14 23:05:22 andax, my personal thinking is that nokia guys didn't think maemo users are also proper linux users :) or maybe they thought people would be inclined to use the GUI parts instead Oct 14 23:05:50 hatake_kakashi: either of those, yes Oct 14 23:06:16 thanks \o Oct 14 23:06:21 * lcuk gets back to packing Oct 14 23:06:30 hatake_kakashi: maemo basically is trying even harder than ubuntu to mimic a windows machine Oct 14 23:06:43 DocScrutinizer, its sad considering they expected NIT to not be as popular as their normal handsets to also assume that NIT owners won't be inclined to use power tools Oct 14 23:07:31 DocScrutinizer, at least it not as bad as symbian mimicking windows :) Oct 14 23:07:52 hatake_kakashi: seems there's been a paradigma shift regarding that - now maem.. errr meego is hyped to become their top notch smartphone OS Oct 14 23:08:59 so of course they go for abominations like extension hiding, VFAT filesystems, and no proper gnutools Oct 14 23:09:09 DocScrutinizer, well when the time comes critics will be giving us the verdict of a quick rundown of what n9 will be like.. n900 was heralded as combining both internet tablet and phone functionality came out to be neither really good at either of them :) Oct 14 23:10:28 can't argue aginst that Oct 14 23:10:57 No proper gnutools is the right decision. Oct 14 23:10:58 frankly speaking, i think the GUI parts do not work like i want it to work and the kernel is not made with GUI so chances to survive without binary utilities are near zero Oct 14 23:10:59 that said, my n900 both makes and receives perfectly good phone calls, so it gets a 10/10 from me as a phone Oct 14 23:11:00 it saddens me having to point out the obvious :) alas we'll see what n9 will be like Oct 14 23:11:08 but you got the chance to sanitize :-D Oct 14 23:11:13 which is more than can be said for most apple/android trash where the phone is an afterthought Oct 14 23:11:24 at least in the n900's case, its an afterthought that nokia *are good at* Oct 14 23:11:59 andax, which is why alot of new n900 owners thinking it was a cool device actually wore out their novelties within the first few months Oct 14 23:13:02 mere phone is excellent, but tbh my 6210 as of y2000 was smarter on the few phone *apps* it had, than a plain N900 is ootb Oct 14 23:14:06 well in most cases n900 is very good for linux power users in general however: 1) it lacks portrait functionality for almost everything else apart from web browsing and phone calling (not to mention phone calling doesn't even log the amount of time you spent on it without a 3rd party tool if there is one) 2) the battery sizes for what reason is beyond me do they opted to give n900 a much much smaller sized plus the capacity on n900 compared to its prede Oct 14 23:14:07 cessors Oct 14 23:14:54 but also, some GUI apps amaze me, i dont want to miss them and i see there is a lot respectable work in them. Oct 14 23:14:57 the battery issue has always annoyed me, when my e90's bp-4l, of basically the same volume, is 1500mah Oct 14 23:15:04 and there's still lots of owners facing weak microUSB ports that can be easily ripped out Oct 14 23:16:02 OMG, really? 180mA less? Oct 14 23:16:28 I still get 3 days standby with active IRC *easily* Oct 14 23:16:35 everyone's usage of it as a phone, as a tablet or both has different views on how good or how bad it is Oct 14 23:16:55 mines a table that occasionally rings Oct 14 23:16:56 tablet* Oct 14 23:17:11 its not just the 180mA less that annoys me.. I still cannot find a single source of where to buy BL-5J except to order them online Oct 14 23:17:16 DocScrutinizer: its 15% less battery life than a battery essentially the same volume and like a 4 year older design, yes Oct 14 23:17:34 had it been the same size as its predecessor, there would have been no dramas for me whatsoever to buy spare batteries Oct 14 23:18:08 it's a dfferent cell chemistry though. Maybe LiPo isn't that siuted for the use and duty pattern Oct 14 23:18:11 atleast the keyboards buttons feel better than n810.. albeit they could be larger Oct 14 23:18:21 hatake_kakashi: It would change a lot if the pointer pen could have two or three (mouse-)buttons and a bluetooth connection to the n900. Some common linux apps could be used. Oct 14 23:18:56 i think it could be done. i think bluetooth devices can be so tiny. Oct 14 23:19:06 andax, heh there were discussions of multitap and about using capacitator screen rather than resistive Oct 14 23:19:10 andax: hey! :-D attach a USB mouse! Oct 14 23:19:28 that requires n900 USB OTG which is still WIP Oct 14 23:19:29 http://torrents.thepiratebay.org/5598924/Midsomer_Murders_S13E02_-_Made_to_Measure_Murder.5598924.TPB.torrent Oct 14 23:19:34 or even a BT mouse Oct 14 23:19:44 How could i? Is there a USB adaptor available for such? Oct 14 23:19:54 DocScrutinizer^ Oct 14 23:19:56 hatake_kakashi: sure? Oct 14 23:20:04 I've heard there's a hand full of BT mouse supported Oct 14 23:20:26 http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=824197#post824197 Oct 14 23:20:45 DocScrutinizer, no but I believe you would need OTG support and plus you have to either hack the mouse with the connector or buy a mouse that actually has microUSB connector as andax said Oct 14 23:20:50 for those that've been living under a stone for the last 3 months Oct 14 23:20:50 hatake_kakashi: mine is not (medion bt mouse) Oct 14 23:21:46 DocScrutinizer, that doesn't mean its stable :) I've seen that thread.. requires custom kernel which would again put it out of the equation compared to its predecessors having OTG capability built-in Oct 14 23:21:59 andax, heh that sucks Oct 14 23:22:24 indeed :( Oct 14 23:22:44 "The purpose of this package is NOT to bring hostmode to the masses, but it's meant to facilitate other devels to give a try to current state of what we basically achieved so far - and we are NOT INTERESTED in support requests, nor in "works for me" or "boohoohoooo It fails!!1!1!"" -- as per link quote Oct 14 23:22:46 hatake_kakashi: sorry then, we won't get any better than that any time soon - at least regarding need of a kernel that actually supports USB host Oct 14 23:23:51 *insert obligatory "hope datz in 1.3 then!" comment* Oct 14 23:23:57 it seems not even meego kernels most bleeding edge are going to adopt the nasty hacks needed to put N900 USB host to work Oct 14 23:24:08 DocScrutinizer, I know, hence I don't go expect, there's plenty of other hacks I've yet to implement in my n900 but I mean it can put some owners off really.. OTG not as per standard (irregularity out of its NIT series? :)) Oct 14 23:25:32 heh epic pr1.3 Oct 14 23:26:11 hatake_kakashi: I agree, back when I was about to order / wait for the N900, when I realized it has fubar USB I was temped to go SCREWIT for a moment - then made up my mind and though "*I* can fix that" Oct 14 23:26:15 maybe its about time nokia should make n900 the "I am not a wannabe" NIT owner Oct 14 23:27:08 DocScrutinizer, best way to look at things, there's no more flexible platform for mobile OS to work with compared to maemo I'd dare say Oct 14 23:27:56 hatake_kakashi: well, it was months and moths of pain for my EE heart, until finally the schematics 'leaked' Oct 14 23:28:28 DocScrutinizer, EE? Estonian? Oct 14 23:28:40 but now I'm more happy with N900 than with any prior device I owned Oct 14 23:28:49 or Electronics Engineer or something? lol Oct 14 23:28:50 ~ DocScrutinizer Oct 14 23:28:51 rumour has it, docscrutinizer is jOERG, a HW-developer and engineer of Openmoko Oct 14 23:29:01 Electronics Engineer Oct 14 23:29:04 ahh Oct 14 23:30:34 I'm fairly happy overall with my n900 despite of all its pitfalls that I constantly pick on about. A lot better than my n95-1 (minus a few things) and it also fulfilled my desires to own my very own linux powered phone Oct 14 23:31:32 let just say that its not just a phone, its more like a portable device which has phone capability Oct 14 23:31:47 I do really like the n900, but, frankly, it's not quite what i'd hoped. Oct 14 23:32:23 it isn't for many I bet, but if you can work with it, it will still make you quite happy as a base for many other things Oct 14 23:32:26 I wanted a mobile do-everything device that was an upgrade to my e90. does not deliver. Oct 14 23:32:54 I was hoping to fully kick my n95-1 out but that didn't happen as well Oct 14 23:33:03 I wanted a N810 with UMTS, I got much more Oct 14 23:33:34 modulo the smaller screen and kbd Oct 14 23:33:53 n900 is my first NIT device Oct 14 23:34:30 kakashi proctology! Oct 14 23:34:32 ditto, I could never really see the practical upshot of older ones over the e-series or communicators of the time Oct 14 23:34:59 I was also quite annoyed at nokia's plan to make meego rather than dedicating themselves to work with maemo platform Oct 14 23:35:01 heh, i remember booting 9000i into dos Oct 14 23:35:07 and ircing from a car with one Oct 14 23:35:22 Mousey, lolwut? Oct 14 23:36:18 oh yeh the nokia communicator was one of my childhood dreams of owning one, never got it but n900 is far better than communicator I bet :D Oct 14 23:36:19 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=frRcIrnjlQI Oct 14 23:36:27 --^ Oct 14 23:36:32 hatake_kakashi: for pure productivity, really not Oct 14 23:37:30 Mousey, lol oh that, anime reference Oct 14 23:37:35 ^_^ Oct 14 23:37:50 n900 = NIT chibi :p Oct 14 23:37:57 nidO, huh? Oct 14 23:38:01 GENERAL CHANNEL POLICY ANNOUNCEMET: it's deprecated to post URLs that neithe contain nor come with a hint about their content. BEWARE! might cause kick or ban Oct 14 23:38:12 :D Oct 14 23:38:34 hatake_kakashi: n900 being better than communicators - not so for actually getting things done, by a long way Oct 14 23:40:11 nidO, well not so but then again the base hardware is much better, its just the UI that's the let down.. at least I guess it'll be up to the maemo community to focus on making alternatives and maybe then shall n900 mimic a little like communicator series Oct 14 23:40:58 well, the hardware's better *in some ways*. the keyboard is a massive step down over any communicator or eseries Oct 14 23:42:09 Mousey, ever seen to aru kagaku no railgun? n900 reminds me of `the last order' :D the immature and pre-released NIT series :D Oct 14 23:42:52 I do really like my n900 but I was very close to returning it after finding out just how terribad the keyboard was, and having to pick up my lower jaw from the floor after seeing the train wreck that is maemo's modest implementation Oct 14 23:43:04 and don't forget about the screen not being able to tilt on an angle like n97 Oct 14 23:43:34 well, there the communicators have the n97 and n900 thoroughly licked as well, being as you can have them at any angle Oct 14 23:43:59 alas all communicators and e-series were powered none other than symbian Oct 14 23:44:08 symbian's fine Oct 14 23:44:13 not for me Oct 14 23:44:23 its a very good, solid, efficient os with a bit of a dated ui sitting on it. Oct 14 23:44:23 sybian's fine? Oct 14 23:44:27 does someone not find the maemo filesystem "hierarchy" is confusing? o_O Oct 14 23:44:30 hatake_kakashi: nah, not my style. =/ Oct 14 23:44:33 for getting things done, I couldnt give a toss that the icons look a bit old Oct 14 23:44:37 DocScrutinizer, I have seenirc bots that will lookup the title automagically for links (like youtube etc) Oct 14 23:45:07 andax, not really, especially when you have worked with a fair few various linux distros :) Oct 14 23:45:08 meh, titles are blue smoke and sand in your eyes Oct 14 23:45:14 Mousey, lol fair enough Oct 14 23:46:11 hatake_kakashi: cant find the users home directory via bt file transfer Oct 14 23:46:29 hatake_kakashi: seems having a different order Oct 14 23:46:42 I'm not worried about icons or its provided features I'm moreso concerned of its overall functionality in that it doesn't try and inhibit users' desires.. which is exactly what my n95-1 ultimately shitted me the most Oct 14 23:46:57 lcuk: either it's clear from context what about an URL is, or you might feel oblighed to give enough info to save 449 users from clicking on that URL to find out Oct 14 23:47:43 andax, its either /home/user or /home/user/MyDocs.. under usual hfm and stuff like that I think it'll just show up as your device name which links to /home/user/MyDocs once you open that up Oct 14 23:47:51 lcuk: and the promise to kick/ban after some warnings wasn't kidding Oct 14 23:48:33 lcuk: in other chans you earn a kickban on posting *any* URL Oct 14 23:48:46 which of course is insane Oct 14 23:49:10 DocScrutinizer, but that policy isnt great, its not going to be important enough for people to remember or need to know? just common sense, if you get infuriated enough to raise a kickban, why not just use the energy and ask the user what the link was? Oct 14 23:49:16 support channels you don't unless you repeat or you constantly post offtopic junk Oct 14 23:50:07 hatake_kakashi: actually, via bluetooth it is different: ..\Nokia N900\File Transfer server\foobar Oct 14 23:50:10 lcuk: I'm an evil teacher trying to educate nice folks - and I'm grumpy as you all know and love me for that Oct 14 23:50:51 andax, which program are you using? I'm using file manager and it allows me to send files through bluetooth Oct 14 23:50:57 hehe Oct 14 23:51:03 not really, save the kicks for offensive content - btw kerio deserves a massive ban ;) Oct 14 23:51:09 lcuk: and a asking for "what's that URL" isn't really different from "you're supposed to tell what that URL is" Oct 14 23:51:40 kerio??? YEEEES Oct 14 23:51:41 sure, but one is positive reenforcement :P Oct 14 23:51:43 :-P Oct 14 23:51:53 hatake_kakashi: i connect in the opposite direction, i work on lapttop with files on n900, via bluetooth connection but i cannot find root not home directories Oct 14 23:52:04 not -> nor Oct 14 23:52:07 you could of course just tell them what the link was "hey, I noticed you forgot the title, for everyone else its ..." :P Oct 14 23:52:09 andax, ahh Oct 14 23:52:11 lcuk: I'm advancing offensive, then usually calm down a lot Oct 14 23:52:49 andax, for that I just either ssh in via wireless or pc suite mode and enabling USB networking Oct 14 23:53:20 i have finally managed to pack suitcase, buying a helicopter with a box that takes up 1/3 of suitcase space causes logistical issues :P Oct 14 23:53:40 hehe Oct 14 23:53:46 lcuk: you need a bigger helicopter to put the suitcase in Oct 14 23:53:49 problem solved! Oct 14 23:53:59 :D sp3000 awesome Oct 14 23:54:07 and so you carry the helicopter by hand? lol Oct 14 23:54:20 err nm Oct 14 23:54:50 sp3000, verkkokauppa has so many nice toys tho :P I couldnt carry them all back with me :D Oct 14 23:55:08 hatake_kakashi, no my one piece of handluggage is this laptop Oct 14 23:55:37 err laptop bag Oct 14 23:55:50 heh that's quite small Oct 14 23:56:57 lcuk: you need to unpack it and let it fly next to your window ;-D Oct 14 23:57:01 but no, I thought what sp3000 meant was to buy a big helicopter so big that it will never fit in yer suitcase rather than thinking the literal meaning is to buy a real and proper helicopter so that you could for example sit in Oct 14 23:57:11 so you only take the remote control with you Oct 14 23:57:44 and when it runs out of nitro/battery you can watch it disappear from yer view lol Oct 14 23:58:11 lcuk: or you place the heli into siutcase and wear all the clothes that don't fit in now Oct 14 23:58:27 DocScrutinizer, I have already decided on that approach Oct 14 23:58:34 I am going to be so warm in the airport :D Oct 14 23:58:38 heh igloo Oct 14 23:58:38 or, just say the hlicopter is a funny hat Oct 14 23:59:26 :D ahah Oct 14 23:59:27 carry it in yer bare hands and when they ask what is it you say its `my baby' :D Oct 14 23:59:33 * DocScrutinizer is waiting for Myrtti making anothe mushroom notice to calendar Oct 14 23:59:37 thats in my pocket already Oct 15 00:00:11 * lcuk drops so much tech onto the security conveyor I could fly to pluto and back Oct 15 00:00:49 as long as you don't give them second looks that you're an electronics smuggler Oct 15 00:01:04 lol for pluto Oct 15 00:01:14 well the people checking the main bags will see a metal box o_O Oct 15 00:01:34 it'll come up as silver lol Oct 15 00:01:52 they'll probably tell you to open it and show them what is it Oct 15 00:02:04 * lcuk fully expects to find a "weopened your luggage ..." note again Oct 15 00:02:17 no, this is the checked luggage, not in my presence Oct 15 00:02:22 hatake_kakashi: the /home/user/MyDocs folder is called Bluetooth-Umgebung\Gesamte Bluetooth\ Neighborhood\Nokia N900\File Transfer server\Data Oct 15 00:03:03 hatake_kakashi: aww /home/user/MyDocs folder is called Bluetooth-Umgebung\Gesamte Bluetooth Neighborhood\Nokia N900\File Transfer server\Data Oct 15 00:03:13 andax, whoa! that's really long path, hmm why not use binding mount? Oct 15 00:03:14 lcuk: helicoper? Yeah probably... "WTF!!! IS! THAT?!?" Oct 15 00:03:17 anyway, its rly late Oct 15 00:03:45 hatake_kakashi: because maemo uses a somewhat unknown filesystem Oct 15 00:04:03 lcuk: right, time for lunch Oct 15 00:04:24 andax, not really, its mostly ext3 and fat32 Oct 15 00:04:29 hatake_kakashi: and my brain is already full Oct 15 00:05:13 hatake_kakashi: with the difference that its not compatible with each of them Oct 15 00:05:26 andax: seems you got something wrong Oct 15 00:06:19 /home/user/MyDocs is called "Documente" in LANG=de_DE Oct 15 00:06:19 DocScrutinizer: my linux box did not recognize that fs, my windows box did not recognize that fs Oct 15 00:06:34 thats why i connect via bluetooth Oct 15 00:06:51 andax: too bad, all my linux boxes have no problems whatsoever Oct 15 00:08:05 andax, too much bluetoothing for you! btw how fast can you transfer over bluetooth anyway? when I transfer over usb via sshfs I can attain roughly 2-3MB/s Oct 15 00:08:13 DocScrutinizer: it is not "Dokumente" here, but i use german Oct 15 00:08:46 on N900 filemanager it's "Documente" iirc Oct 15 00:09:05 andax: just use tab completion Oct 15 00:09:42 err, it's N900, MyDocs/.documents is "Documente" Oct 15 00:10:22 DocScrutinizer1GB takes estimated time of 84 minutes, and i wasnt able to move files larger than approx. 1.2GB Oct 15 00:10:49 andax: via USB mass storage? Oct 15 00:10:54 andax: wtf? use usb networking Oct 15 00:11:00 DocScrutinizervia bluetooth Oct 15 00:11:07 aah, yeah Oct 15 00:11:13 usb networking isn't faster than usb mass storage Oct 15 00:11:27 nope, for sure not Oct 15 00:11:35 but usb networking can provide you with shell and few other things :D Oct 15 00:11:37 DocScrutinizer: fwiw I find usb network with sshfs is faster than mass storage Oct 15 00:12:19 nope, I got around 12MB/s via mass storage, *write* to eMMC, for a 13GB Oct 15 00:13:25 but I use rsync so it doesn't have to transfer *everything* Oct 15 00:13:36 :nod: Oct 15 00:13:45 I couldn't measure transfer speeds via mass storage in a stable fashion, though sshfs I know is quite slow for transferring files because it heavily uses CPU Oct 15 00:13:46 but that's not a fair competition Oct 15 00:14:32 heh -- who says it has to be fair ? ;) Oct 15 00:15:05 jpinx-eeepc: I can rsync to a mass storage mounted device as well :-P Oct 15 00:15:53 DocScrutinizer: really? I never tried that, but I'm always in networking mode so... Oct 15 00:16:39 rsync doesn't have to be over a network with IP addresses, it can be between two mounted devices or even directories Oct 15 00:16:50 so i am getting my N900 on Monday (or Sunday, pending some tricks). Is there a "top list of awesome apps to install imedaitely" Oct 15 00:17:07 define: awesome Oct 15 00:18:27 chx: charge the battery before you start dicking about Oct 15 00:18:36 hah Oct 15 00:19:25 chx: and learn what's in there before you start adding crapware Oct 15 00:21:09 is there a difference between the using dbus or bluez to connect to a bluetooth device Oct 15 00:22:01 chx: not-my-nokia (immediately!!), load applet, simple brightness applet Oct 15 00:22:10 xchat Oct 15 00:22:16 rootsh Oct 15 00:22:35 bahaha why notmynokia? Oct 15 00:22:42 whats wrong with registering to mynokia Oct 15 00:22:43 wtf is not-my-nokia ? Oct 15 00:22:55 and xchat is crap Oct 15 00:22:58 jpinx-eeepc: it's anticherry Oct 15 00:23:06 cherry? Oct 15 00:23:06 makes n900 not subscribe itself to my nokia Oct 15 00:23:19 why is that a good thing? Oct 15 00:23:27 not necessarily Oct 15 00:23:36 # kill that cherry PITA, before it sends SMS Oct 15 00:23:37 # see http://wiki.maemo.org/PR1.2_compulsory_My_Nokia_subscription Oct 15 00:23:39 but disabling my nokia may save you sms fees Oct 15 00:24:06 and protect your privacy Oct 15 00:24:29 any one know about the bluetooth programming? Oct 15 00:24:32 your device is on the internet - privacy gone n Oct 15 00:24:42 hi Oct 15 00:24:47 jpinx-eeepc: maybe yours Oct 15 00:25:18 humm Oct 15 00:25:40 chx: flashlight Oct 15 00:25:54 i've installed easy debian on my n900 and upgraded it to current debian versions Oct 15 00:25:56 there is a problem of ordering Oct 15 00:26:04 i mean Oct 15 00:26:11 not flashlight-extra though (brings machine to a grinding halt) Oct 15 00:26:13 i presume by now the phone will have pr1.2 on it Oct 15 00:26:23 babsher_, not I but taking an educated guess at yer problem, I'd say if you use dbus you make other built-in applications that depends on dbus aware Oct 15 00:26:28 and when i switch on it registers. Oct 15 00:26:28 all worked fine until recently, now my menu bar on the lx desktop flashes Oct 15 00:26:34 no...? Oct 15 00:26:36 chx: I wouldn't rely on that Oct 15 00:27:10 i've tried to remove some lxde config files in home dir, but no success Oct 15 00:27:14 chx: and it won't register until you insert a SIM Oct 15 00:27:16 any ideas or hints? Oct 15 00:27:19 oh Oct 15 00:27:24 that wont happen for days Oct 15 00:27:40 DocScrutinizer: so basically it registers on boot, before you have time to stop it Oct 15 00:27:54 out of curiosity, is it possible to send-receive SMS without a voice plan? Oct 15 00:28:03 yes, on PR1.2 it does - *if* there's a SIM Oct 15 00:28:08 chx: depends on your provider Oct 15 00:28:42 jpinx-eeepc: what should i ask from my provider :) Oct 15 00:29:00 seems here we got no SIM that don't come with voice plan Oct 15 00:29:23 same here Oct 15 00:29:27 heh Oct 15 00:29:35 DocScrutinizer: so - having reflashed, inserted a working sim, rebooted, upgraded - it's done with nokia and I can't stop it Oct 15 00:29:47 but then here we don't pay for inbound minutes Oct 15 00:29:49 http://shop.windmobile.ca/ProductCatalog/DataPlans/PlanDetails.aspx?id=Infinite+Laptop Oct 15 00:30:09 i alreayd have this SIM in an Option 442 datacard. Oct 15 00:30:20 chx: same as you asked here Oct 15 00:30:28 jpinx-eeepc: seems yes Oct 15 00:30:35 some providers may charge you to send and receive SMS, others may bundle it as a cost for yer voice plan or have a set amount of sms you can send on yer plan Oct 15 00:30:52 i see. Oct 15 00:31:04 Moving a hundred meg over usb-ethernet from outside to phone goes at 7M/s Oct 15 00:31:06 so no tricks of sending SMSes over data only? Oct 15 00:31:15 like we can do with voice? Oct 15 00:31:15 DocScrutinizer: so installing not-my-nokia will make no difference to me now Oct 15 00:31:43 receiving is usually free unless its a premium number.. here in .au we have special numbers that are marked for premium sms services Oct 15 00:31:58 jpinx-eeepc: the suggestion was't addressed to you anyway Oct 15 00:32:39 chx: sure there are webpages to send 'free' SMS Oct 15 00:32:48 * jpinx-eeepc fails to see how installing not-my-nokia will work for anyone once the phone is booted... Oct 15 00:33:06 and usually you also may send SMS via your SIP provider Oct 15 00:33:30 jpinx-eeepc: please read the wiki URL I posted above Oct 15 00:33:36 i did Oct 15 00:34:23 it appears to be effective only if you install it before inserting a sim Oct 15 00:34:27 cherry came with PR1.2 - you're supposed to install not-my-nokia *prior* to SSU upgrade to PR1.2 Oct 15 00:35:14 Or you pull the SIM, then install the package that I've forgotten the name of. Oct 15 00:35:28 and you also seem to have an option to delete the pending sim even when you booted to a PR1.2 without SIM Oct 15 00:35:52 SpeedEvil: if the upgradde is done and the sim is in - you're toast Oct 15 00:35:59 yep Oct 15 00:36:07 so you could have prevented the n900 to send phone number to nokia for all times? Oct 15 00:36:18 yes Oct 15 00:36:41 and there is no retro-opt-out? Oct 15 00:36:48 there is Oct 15 00:37:01 nice to know it after starting the device ;) Oct 15 00:37:04 you'll send another SMS for that X-P Oct 15 00:37:17 the sms is not the issue Oct 15 00:37:25 50 cents or whatever Oct 15 00:37:44 no, it's the privacy violation Oct 15 00:37:45 there's no way back other than to get a new phone number Oct 15 00:38:00 they dont delete data Oct 15 00:38:10 nobody really does Oct 15 00:38:18 they = nokia Oct 15 00:38:27 big brother as all the others too Oct 15 00:38:31 they = * Oct 15 00:38:52 DocScrutinizer: I change sim when I travel - always using a local provider - so nokia will have a bunch of numbers for me :) Oct 15 00:39:05 err, nope Oct 15 00:39:13 but do they really get personal data from the telephone providers? Oct 15 00:39:16 cherry shit is done once, not per sim Oct 15 00:39:42 you sure? Oct 15 00:39:46 johndo: they get SMS from *you* Oct 15 00:40:19 i changed the sim as the question abpout registration came after upgrade to 1.2 Oct 15 00:40:22 johndo: yes I'm sure Oct 15 00:40:35 and it came again as i switched back to my contract sim ;) Oct 15 00:41:06 so i guess nokia now has both numbers Oct 15 00:41:18 during boot some script checks for ~user/.cherry file, if none exists it sends the SMS and creates that file Oct 15 00:41:31 they must have the numbers or they can not send you "helpful messages" Oct 15 00:41:41 so until you reflash or erase that file, there'll be no other SMS Oct 15 00:41:57 .cherry_state ? Oct 15 00:42:05 yep Oct 15 00:42:11 sth like that Oct 15 00:42:26 check there: http://wiki.maemo.org/User:Joerg_rw/tools Oct 15 00:42:27 DocScrutinizer: so if I delete the file and have the not-my-nokia installed and reboot - all is undone? Oct 15 00:42:38 good to know .. to not erase that file on a cleanup :) Oct 15 00:42:41 jpinx-eeepc: nfc Oct 15 00:43:06 this is worse than MS :( Oct 15 00:43:44 how often do nokia send sms's? I see none in the convrsations Oct 15 00:44:19 the bad thing is that there is no opt-out or "no" button when the registration window pops up Oct 15 00:44:44 nokia had left a lot of trust in my eyes at this moment, did not think they are that bad Oct 15 00:44:46 even MS has that Oct 15 00:45:23 worse than MS is no level, MS has no skill whenit comes rto inet and data mining Oct 15 00:45:49 nokia is at the level of apple and google with that behaviuour Oct 15 00:47:41 something completely different, what's the difference in behaviour between the GUI packet manager and apt-get? Oct 15 00:48:00 my GUI packetmanager is happy and don't want to upgrade anything Oct 15 00:48:03 johndo: huge Oct 15 00:48:22 but when i start apt-get upgrade it wants to upgrade 3 packages Oct 15 00:48:26 johndo: I am told that using apt-get for the wrong things will break it Oct 15 00:48:57 well, i would trust apt more than any GUI packet manager :) Oct 15 00:49:59 johndo: don't Oct 15 00:50:11 and i see the packages apt wants to upgrade in the fremantle-1.2 repository Oct 15 00:50:15 johndo: you speak like a debian user ;) Oct 15 00:50:42 so my question is why does the gui packet manager don't upgrade them? Oct 15 00:50:50 I am one :P Oct 15 00:51:17 same here, and I have been warned to use HAM whenever possible, not ap-get Oct 15 00:52:03 hmm, not very convincing :( Oct 15 00:52:15 johndo: apt-get upgrade is strongly deprecated and usually breaks your system Oct 15 00:53:18 then the repositories are managed badly, shouldn't happen with good repositories Oct 15 00:53:53 the repositories have some special hacks that don't take effect with pure apt Oct 15 00:54:06 OK so http://www.twilio.com/sms/ this seems to be a solution to my problem. Oct 15 00:54:26 so anybody knows what mechanisms prevent the GUI packet manager from installing packages which apt does not know of? Oct 15 00:55:04 maybe categories or whats it called Oct 15 00:55:29 aiu HAM only shows pkgs in group/category user/* Oct 15 00:56:04 but then you can't even trust the fremantle extras repository? Oct 15 00:56:18 trust? Oct 15 00:56:36 trust in "it's mostly safe to install packages from there? Oct 15 00:56:52 yes, those packages are supposed to be safe Oct 15 00:56:58 * jpinx-eeepc installs notmynokia using HAM Oct 15 01:01:15 johndo: mostly Oct 15 01:01:18 :-) Oct 15 01:02:41 the thing i hate with HAM is that i can't see what it is doing Oct 15 01:02:49 where it gets packages from, ... Oct 15 01:06:32 jpinx-eeepc: notmynokia is extras-devel and you install that with HAM? Oct 15 01:06:53 how can you know what dependencies it installs from devel behind your back? Oct 15 01:12:37 johndo: relax and enjoy the ride ;) Oct 15 01:13:04 you can query with dpkg after Oct 15 01:13:29 hehe, i like the word "after" in that sentence :D Oct 15 01:13:56 if you don't like something you can work out how to purge it ;) Oct 15 01:14:57 yes, and how to downgrade all packages which have been upgraded to a version from devel because of dependencies ;) Oct 15 01:15:43 i guess my trust in apt to upgrade files isn't worse than that :) Oct 15 01:16:25 johndo: you have reason - at least aptitude tells you - HAM says nothing Oct 15 01:16:48 gah, and nobody knows how to fix my blinking menu bar in lxde Oct 15 01:17:02 do i really have to start with a fresh image :( Oct 15 01:17:31 chroot? Oct 15 01:17:37 yes Oct 15 01:17:42 I have three images that I use ) Oct 15 01:17:57 differing states of brokenness while I fiddle Oct 15 01:18:28 i dont care to copy the original image over, but when trhis happens all 3 days or so it's not worth to invest time in the debian image to customize it Oct 15 02:11:37 the "install" (or whatever) tab says what it installs Oct 15 02:13:51 err, HAM says nothing? and what's with the rightmost of those tabs under "Details"? Oct 15 02:14:26 umm, ShadowJK been faster just another time :-D Oct 15 02:15:14 http://www.theregister.co.uk/2010/10/14/nokia_dilbert/ Oct 15 02:19:33 I forget, is the swap and back key on GPIO on N810 or on the keyboard matrix? Oct 15 02:19:40 the swap key stopped responding :/ Oct 15 02:20:35 ah, mce restart fixed it Oct 15 02:24:15 hm Oct 15 02:24:30 the ground is covered in lots of snow Oct 15 02:24:41 * ShadowJK gets to drive to work with summer tyres :D Oct 15 02:41:16 ShadowJK: wohoo :) Oct 15 02:42:56 ShadowJK, DocScrutinizer: it says what it installs, but not where from ;) Oct 15 02:43:39 yes, that's correct Oct 15 02:56:26 Is there an (cross)assembler for Fremantle? Oct 15 02:57:55 morning **** ENDING LOGGING AT Fri Oct 15 02:59:57 2010