**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Sun Jan 16 02:59:58 2011
Jan 16 03:08:38 <DocScrutinizer> time for 12648430
Jan 16 03:10:01 <javispedro> where the hell have all the fremantle -dbg packages gone?
Jan 16 03:10:23 <MohammadAG> <DocScrutinizer> time for 12648430
Jan 16 03:10:33 <MohammadAG> -dbg packages went for that ^
Jan 16 03:10:49 <DocScrutinizer> you just need a printf
Jan 16 03:10:53 <DocScrutinizer> :-)
Jan 16 03:11:06 * DocScrutinizer throws a "%0x" at MohammadAG
Jan 16 03:12:29 <MohammadAG> what's the syntax again? :P
Jan 16 03:12:38 <javispedro> harl, so I need to add the sdk repo to device
Jan 16 03:12:41 <javispedro> danger will robinson
Jan 16 03:13:32 <DocScrutinizer> nah wait. I recall I got another used defined command for that:
Jan 16 03:13:36 <DocScrutinizer> printf "x\n" 12648430
Jan 16 03:13:48 <DocScrutinizer> dammit
Jan 16 03:14:01 <DocScrutinizer> bastard ate my %
Jan 16 03:19:02 <DocScrutinizer> Status: 0x10 Mode: CHARGING Full: 0 WallCharger: 0 Battery Voltage: 4172 NAC: 2054 Battery level: 100 %
Jan 16 03:19:04 <DocScrutinizer> Status: 0x10 Mode: CHARGING Full: 0 WallCharger: 0 Battery Voltage: 4172 NAC: 2054 Battery level: 100 %
Jan 16 03:19:47 <DocScrutinizer> MohammadAG: now you can watch all episodes of DrHouse without swapping battery :-D
Jan 16 03:20:56 <DocScrutinizer> that script though... Rather hackerish interface
Jan 16 03:21:19 <MohammadAG> well
Jan 16 03:21:27 <MohammadAG> the GUI could me made to read new lines
Jan 16 03:21:36 <MohammadAG> then update some labels
Jan 16 03:21:45 <MohammadAG> using strip
Jan 16 03:21:58 <DocScrutinizer> nah, we're definitely not interested in that kinda stuff
Jan 16 03:23:51 <DocScrutinizer> if you want to know about battery status, you call "jrbme query battery" and read out /var/jrbme/charge, or you call "jrbme list battery" and parse the STDOUT
Jan 16 03:24:39 <Kilroo> I wonder if a class 10 microsd will be fast enough that I won't care about partitioning my internal memory for other operating systems.
Jan 16 03:24:42 <DocScrutinizer> take the cmd syntax with a grain of salt, that's one of the parts that definitely need some streamlining
Jan 16 03:26:23 <Kilroo> Speaking of which, in case it's a useful link for anyone, http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820220547
Jan 16 03:28:58 <javispedro> success!
Jan 16 03:29:28 <javispedro> pulse now thinks I have headphones
Jan 16 03:29:40 <MohammadAG> awesomesauce
Jan 16 03:30:57 * javispedro dances
Jan 16 03:31:04 <DocScrutinizer> javispedro: you found that time anihilator machine?
Jan 16 03:31:17 <MohammadAG> javispedro, now do the earpiece!
Jan 16 03:31:43 <javispedro> MohammadAG: is there a difference from the mixer PoV?
Jan 16 03:31:56 <DocScrutinizer> good question :-P
Jan 16 03:32:00 <MohammadAG> no, it just does some switch switches afaik
Jan 16 03:32:15 <javispedro> theoretically PA policy also controls input (meaning I should use this to switch between fmrx and microphone instead of alsa mixer hacks)
Jan 16 03:32:35 <javispedro> (and headset microphone, if any)
Jan 16 03:32:42 <DocScrutinizer> how's e.g recall doing it?
Jan 16 03:32:58 <DocScrutinizer> using just default?
Jan 16 03:33:10 <javispedro> good question, let's download it
Jan 16 03:33:18 <Kilroo> Speaking of headphones, is there a way to make the n900 play music through the external speakers when a bluetooth headset is paired with it?
Jan 16 03:33:25 <javispedro> DocScrutinizer: http://maemo.org/packages/view/recaller/  ?
Jan 16 03:33:28 <Kilroo> I should google that, but I just thought of it.
Jan 16 03:34:19 <javispedro> Kilroo: sure, I do not know of any "packaged" solution but for example using the method I'm researching you could
Jan 16 03:34:30 <Kilroo> Oh, cool.
Jan 16 03:34:44 <DocScrutinizer> javispedro: yes prolly
Jan 16 03:36:07 <DocScrutinizer> allegedly ringtones go to speakers no matter if headset is wired or BT
Jan 16 03:36:27 <javispedro> and alarm sounds
Jan 16 03:37:26 <javispedro> DocScrutinizer: that one app doesn't do any mixing, it just records from either hw0 (mic/headset mic), hw1 (bt), or pulseaudio feedback ("system")
Jan 16 03:37:51 <psycho_oreos> ringtones and alarm sounds goes straight to my BT headset. alarm sounds goes to my FM transmitter as well if that's enabled
Jan 16 03:38:12 <DocScrutinizer> javispedro: I wish we had such awesome pages for N900: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo_1973_audio_subsystem  http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo_Freerunner_audio_subsystem
Jan 16 03:39:17 <javispedro> at least I think I'm starting to understand the fmrx and speakers+headphones part
Jan 16 03:39:29 <javispedro> (not going into the phone area)
Jan 16 03:40:47 <SpeedEvil> DocScrutinizer: I started trying to write notes for it, but my head exploded.
Jan 16 03:41:13 <DocScrutinizer> hehe, yeah
Jan 16 03:41:43 <javispedro> the fully-analog fm bypass does work
Jan 16 03:45:36 <Kilroo> I was amused at myself last week when I finally found out that the little square thing that didn't seem to be there for a reason was an infrared transmitter...
Jan 16 03:47:42 <javispedro> what would "ifh" mean here
Jan 16 03:47:45 <javispedro> "ihf"
Jan 16 03:48:27 <MohammadAG> i had fun
Jan 16 03:49:59 <javispedro> =)
Jan 16 03:50:31 <MohammadAG> what's the time in barcelona anyways
Jan 16 03:50:54 <SpeedEvil> 2:45?
Jan 16 03:51:03 <javispedro> you don't want to know.
Jan 16 03:51:42 <MohammadAG> javispedro,
Jan 16 03:51:46 <MohammadAG> Sun, 16 Jan 2011, 05:46:50 IST
Jan 16 03:51:47 <MohammadAG> I do
Jan 16 03:51:48 <MohammadAG> :P
Jan 16 03:52:12 <javispedro> nope, CEST.
Jan 16 03:52:21 <MohammadAG> ..
Jan 16 03:52:28 <MohammadAG> I meant it can't be worse than my time
Jan 16 03:55:32 <DocScrutinizer> what, you already got S in Barcelona?
Jan 16 03:55:42 <javispedro> errr not.
Jan 16 03:58:52 <javispedro> either way, now that due to MohammadAG's fault Real Life has crashed into my hacking session it's time to call it a day.
Jan 16 03:59:29 <MohammadAG> javispedro, want some insurance?
Jan 16 03:59:33 <DocScrutinizer> javispedro: you did  not get the timewharp machine running
Jan 16 03:59:36 <MohammadAG> it's only $50 a minute
Jan 16 03:59:58 <javispedro> DocScrutinizer: I didn't, sadly :(
Jan 16 04:00:28 <DocScrutinizer> looking forward to PA-fsckd-for
Jan 16 04:00:30 <DocScrutinizer> GOOD
Jan 16 04:00:45 <javispedro> this one is actually about using PA =)
Jan 16 04:01:06 <DocScrutinizer> yeah, you can't use PA, you have to ABUSE it
Jan 16 04:01:12 <javispedro> touché
Jan 16 04:03:05 * DocScrutinizer ponders really really bad kernel hacking, to teach the bitch bme who's master
Jan 16 04:04:33 <DocScrutinizer> write to /dev/kmem XP
Jan 16 04:05:03 <DocScrutinizer> so naaaaaaasty I start to like the idea
Jan 16 04:19:20 <DocScrutinizer> nah, probably I'll stay with my plan to talk some gifted C coder into creating a LD_PRELOAD'able fake_fopen.so, to divert all fopen() and sibling calls to some different pathname, with a little help of a set of regex-substitutions for the fopen() path parameter. Kind of a path-selective chroot, well kinda
Jan 16 04:19:33 <DocScrutinizer> or... duh... even code that shit myself
Jan 16 04:27:00 <DocScrutinizer> FILE *fopen(const char *path, const char *mode) {return( real_fopen( regex_subst( getenv( "FAKE_FOPEN_REGEX"), path), mode); };
Jan 16 04:28:34 <DocScrutinizer> might actually get a fairly short sourcecode :-)
Jan 16 04:33:36 <MrBawb> DocScrutinizer: LD_PRELOAD is easy: http://code.google.com/p/n900ipv6/source/browse/ldpreload/libnat64.c
Jan 16 04:33:39 <DocScrutinizer> of course I also could use gdb, and modify the interesting code snippets
Jan 16 04:34:22 <DocScrutinizer> meh,
Jan 16 04:34:24 <DocScrutinizer> Server Error
Jan 16 04:34:25 <DocScrutinizer>  The server encountered an error and could not complete your request.
Jan 16 04:35:04 <MrBawb> hm. google not giving you the source?
Jan 16 04:35:05 <DocScrutinizer> I bet it's easy, once you know the magic --foobars for gcc
Jan 16 04:35:21 <MrBawb> http://code.google.com/p/n900ipv6/source/browse/ldpreload/Makefile
Jan 16 04:35:24 <MrBawb> those are the --foobars
Jan 16 04:35:40 <DocScrutinizer> same
Jan 16 04:35:51 <MrBawb> heh
Jan 16 04:35:53 <MrBawb> you have hg?
Jan 16 04:37:16 <DocScrutinizer> nah
Jan 16 04:37:41 <DocScrutinizer> If I had, would I search for somebody to do this silly bit of cosing for me? :-)
Jan 16 04:37:53 <DocScrutinizer> coding even
Jan 16 04:39:32 <MrBawb> hm
Jan 16 04:39:32 <DocScrutinizer> code.google.com hates me
Jan 16 04:39:39 <MrBawb> let me see what I can do
Jan 16 04:40:13 <DocScrutinizer> probably doesn't like konqueror :-P
Jan 16 04:40:49 <DocScrutinizer> rrrrrright :-P
Jan 16 04:40:54 <DocScrutinizer> FF works
Jan 16 04:41:16 <DocScrutinizer> code.google.com hates konqui
Jan 16 04:41:44 <ieatlint> most of us hate konqueror... not sure we can really hold it against google
Jan 16 04:49:21 <MrBawb> DocScrutinizer: http://dan.drown.org/libfopen.tar.gz
Jan 16 04:49:31 <DocScrutinizer> o.O
Jan 16 04:49:38 <MrBawb> LD_PRELOAD=./libfopen.so cut -d" " -f1 Makefile
Jan 16 04:49:39 <MrBawb> fopen64 with Makefile
Jan 16 04:50:18 <DocScrutinizer> thanks mate :-D
Jan 16 04:51:28 <DocScrutinizer> cool, the rest is c&p :-)
Jan 16 04:51:32 <ieatlint> so hey, you got the magstripe reader doc?
Jan 16 04:51:39 <DocScrutinizer> yep
Jan 16 04:51:42 <DocScrutinizer> nice
Jan 16 04:51:44 <DocScrutinizer> :-)
Jan 16 04:51:45 <ieatlint> :)
Jan 16 04:51:48 <ieatlint> glad it works for you
Jan 16 04:52:05 <DocScrutinizer> nah, I need the link to your app to test it
Jan 16 04:52:15 <ieatlint> http://maemo.org/packages/view/magread/
Jan 16 04:52:24 <DocScrutinizer> just used recorder to get funny scratching sound :-P
Jan 16 04:52:33 <ieatlint> i'll be pushing a new version in the not too distant future that will had a handful of features
Jan 16 04:52:57 <ieatlint> but that's in extras-testing, and source is up there to verify i'm not doing anything nefarious with the recorded date (which isn't kept at all..)
Jan 16 04:53:12 <ieatlint> alterego was smart enough to check before running his CC with my app, haha
Jan 16 04:56:14 <ieatlint> also, the software works when swiped either direction, but it works better when swiped right to left, as that's how the data is written
Jan 16 04:56:44 <ieatlint> and the relative of "right" is based on the magstripe on the card being on top and facing you (as in the icon for the app)
Jan 16 05:05:54 <DocScrutinizer> ShadowJK: WTF?!
Jan 16 05:05:58 <DocScrutinizer> t900:~# i2cget -y 2 0x6b 0x00
Jan 16 05:06:00 <DocScrutinizer> 0x56
Jan 16 05:06:29 <DocScrutinizer> after killing your chargescript - also LED steady amber (= recovery charge?)
Jan 16 05:07:34 <DocScrutinizer> ieatlint: got that
Jan 16 05:11:28 <DocScrutinizer> 0x56 = in-progress || timer-fault || enable-stat-pin
Jan 16 05:13:53 <DocScrutinizer> funny bit is bq24150 is actually providing charge, probably 100mA according to r01=0x30 - though Vbat=4170
Jan 16 05:14:53 <DocScrutinizer> nah, screw that - it stopped providing charge
Jan 16 05:14:59 <RobbieThe1st> Heh - *someone* lost a bet - I got my new screen, and my N900's now working again! http://robbiethe1st.afraid.org/images/IMGP2696-small.jpeg
Jan 16 05:15:28 <DocScrutinizer> it did however:
Jan 16 05:15:31 <DocScrutinizer> Average Current: 3 mA
Jan 16 05:15:33 <DocScrutinizer> TTF: 4 minutes TTE: 65535 minutes
Jan 16 05:27:55 <DocScrutinizer> RobbieThe1st: ugh, what's that?
Jan 16 05:29:37 <RobbieThe1st> Uh... what? Just a picture of my desktop, with no cracks(unlike the last couple of pictures)
Jan 16 05:30:03 <RobbieThe1st> see http://robbiethe1st.afraid.org/images/IMGP2669-small.jpeg
Jan 16 05:35:56 <RobbieThe1st> DocScrutinizer: Perhaps I should explain. Back when I talked about my LCD getting cracked, a couple of people were betting I couldn't replace it. Others said I could. So... I had to show off my (simple) acomplishment,
Jan 16 05:37:46 <SpeedEvil> I think I may have said that it's not risk free.
Jan 16 05:37:52 <SpeedEvil> But congrats.
Jan 16 05:42:33 <DocScrutinizer> ieatlint: works great
Jan 16 05:42:50 <ieatlint> :)
Jan 16 05:43:20 <ieatlint> and now you have another random feature of your n900 that may not be usable, but is somewhat eye catching and fun to show off
Jan 16 05:43:30 <ieatlint> usable/useful
Jan 16 05:43:35 <DocScrutinizer> yes, exactly
Jan 16 05:43:56 <ieatlint> unless you want to skim people's credit cards
Jan 16 05:44:02 <ieatlint> then it's awesome
Jan 16 05:44:26 <DocScrutinizer> actually it's useful as I found out my china air miles&more card isn't readable
Jan 16 05:44:40 <SpeedEvil> ieatlint: usability fail though.
Jan 16 05:45:01 <ieatlint> if you swipe a card, and it doesn't even say "bad swipe", then it means the track is blank
Jan 16 05:45:03 <DocScrutinizer> anyway, thumbs up
Jan 16 05:45:05 <SpeedEvil> ieatlint: you should hack the reader into the n900 so you can swipe it through the n900 between the keyboard and screen.
Jan 16 05:45:19 <ieatlint> SpeedEvil: i'll get right on that :P
Jan 16 05:45:23 <DocScrutinizer> ieatlint: it says "bad swipe"
Jan 16 05:45:34 <ieatlint> then there is something there
Jan 16 05:45:40 <ieatlint> but it may not be a known encoding scheme
Jan 16 05:45:51 <DocScrutinizer> SpeedEvil: nice :-D
Jan 16 05:46:01 <ShadowJK> DocScrutinizer, 0x56: enable stat pin, charge in progress, poor input source or vbus ?
Jan 16 05:46:16 <DocScrutinizer> yep
Jan 16 05:46:35 <ShadowJK> oh maybe it's timer fault indeed
Jan 16 05:46:41 <DocScrutinizer> timer fault
Jan 16 05:46:42 <ShadowJK> But that would be expected if you killed the script
Jan 16 05:47:15 <DocScrutinizer> yes, what's not expected though is it keeping charging for at least some 60s
Jan 16 05:47:38 <ShadowJK> the watchdog timer is kinda inaccurate
Jan 16 05:47:54 <DocScrutinizer> well, maybe even that. The yellow LED baffled me
Jan 16 05:48:24 <DocScrutinizer> that might be related to hostmode being active :-)
Jan 16 05:48:54 <ShadowJK> Nah, yellow led is what would happen if: there's no software controlling bq2415 && vbus is high
Jan 16 05:49:14 <DocScrutinizer> ShadowJK: I hope you won't mind me shamelessly stealing from that script, for jrbme
Jan 16 05:49:23 <ShadowJK> heh
Jan 16 05:49:29 <ShadowJK> I should probably upload current version somewhere
Jan 16 05:49:35 <ShadowJK> which one are you using?
Jan 16 05:49:54 <DocScrutinizer> err, I guess the one you got on jk/charge/*
Jan 16 05:50:17 <ShadowJK> oh
Jan 16 05:50:39 <DocScrutinizer> oh?
Jan 16 05:51:35 <ieatlint> DocScrutinizer: for the card that is having issues reading, try checking he "show partial read" box and seeing if anything comes up
Jan 16 05:51:54 <ieatlint> that box will show you data that matches some checksums but fails at the LRC
Jan 16 05:51:58 <DocScrutinizer> ShadowJK: see http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=921203#post921203
Jan 16 05:52:11 <ieatlint> (try swiping something like a credit card half-way, and you'll see half the cc number)
Jan 16 05:52:39 <DocScrutinizer> ieatlint: I did, from very beginning :-D
Jan 16 05:52:53 <ieatlint> ok :)
Jan 16 05:53:07 <ieatlint> am throwing together a tips page now to cover a bunch of random things
Jan 16 05:56:43 <ShadowJK> oh that script isn't terribly out of date afterall I guess
Jan 16 05:58:55 <DocScrutinizer> ShadowJK: anyway kinda strange it takes two starts
Jan 16 06:00:19 <ieatlint> DocScrutinizer: http://blog.tehinterweb.com/?p=147 has a long and poorly formatted list of "tips" for using the application
Jan 16 06:29:11 <DocScrutinizer> :-D
Jan 16 06:29:15 <DocScrutinizer> Status: 0x10 Mode: CHARGING Full: 0 WallCharger: 0 Battery Voltage: 4161 NAC: 1970 Battery level: 96 %
Jan 16 06:29:16 <DocScrutinizer> Status: 0x10 Mode: CHARGING Full: 0 WallCharger: 0 Battery Voltage: 4153 NAC: 2054 Battery level: 100 %
Jan 16 06:29:48 <DocScrutinizer> still in hostmode, screen on. Since err, 10h?
Jan 16 06:40:29 <chx> DocScrutinizer: nice job
Jan 16 06:51:26 <ShadowJK> hm, I'm not sure if my system load estimation is accurate on my new N900 :)
Jan 16 06:53:38 <jpinx> ShadowJK: run at a youtube video and watch the meter ;)
Jan 16 06:54:19 <ShadowJK> No I'm waiting for charge to terminate, then the charger's current goes away and hopefully the battery drain rate matches the estimated rate from before
Jan 16 07:10:27 <DocScrutinizer51> hmm, conky is kinda meh
Jan 16 07:19:11 <ying> hi all
Jan 16 07:19:42 <ying> somebody there for a short question?
Jan 16 07:19:49 <ying> need some help ;)
Jan 16 07:22:15 <ShadowJK> the answer is 42
Jan 16 07:23:33 <ying> ?
Jan 16 07:25:04 <ying> is it possible to increase the volume in a telephone call
Jan 16 07:25:05 <ying> ?
Jan 16 07:28:37 <SwedeMike> ying: yes.
Jan 16 07:29:12 <SwedeMike> ying: you just change the volume with the volume buttons.
Jan 16 07:30:03 <SpeedEvil> or yell.
Jan 16 07:30:37 <ShadowJK> Do note that when you are talking on the phone, you press the volume button upwards
Jan 16 07:31:05 <ying> k thx i will try it out
Jan 16 07:31:23 <ying> just give me a second
Jan 16 07:31:23 <ying> ;)
Jan 16 07:32:15 * SpeedEvil ponders the eternal question.
Jan 16 07:32:16 <ShadowJK> (so it's "reversed" from what they do in landscape mode, where left = less volume/less zoom and right 0 more volume/more zoom)
Jan 16 07:32:22 <SpeedEvil> One-off-glitch, or impending doom.
Jan 16 07:32:47 <SpeedEvil> Screen kept freezing, with lots of SGX recovery till I rebooted.
Jan 16 07:34:12 <SwedeMike> oh btw, I'm running PR1.3 with the power kernel, are there new fixes for the "screen glitch when getting a call"? where can I find these "community fixes", are they collected on a single page somewhere?
Jan 16 07:34:42 <ying> so thx a lot see you
Jan 16 08:04:07 <ying> hi again
Jan 16 08:04:18 <ying> one more question
Jan 16 08:04:57 <ying> how can i deaktivate the menu button so maemo doesn't react on it while it is locked
Jan 16 08:04:57 <ying> ?
Jan 16 08:05:22 <ShadowJK> the menu button?
Jan 16 08:05:31 <ying> the on off button
Jan 16 08:05:35 <ShadowJK> ah
Jan 16 08:05:58 <ShadowJK> no idea, mine shows the unlock slider and I use it to check the time :)
Jan 16 08:06:01 <SpeedEvil> I don't think you can.
Jan 16 08:06:17 <SpeedEvil> At least - pressing and holding it will always reset the device at a pretty low level.
Jan 16 08:06:31 <ying> hmm because i have a pocket for my n900
Jan 16 08:06:38 <ying> everytime if i put it in
Jan 16 08:06:45 <ying> it touches that button
Jan 16 08:06:50 <ying> and the display goes on
Jan 16 08:06:58 <SpeedEvil> Ah.
Jan 16 08:07:18 <SpeedEvil> I'd return the case for being broken.
Jan 16 08:07:41 <ying> hmm to bad it's to old to return it
Jan 16 08:08:01 <SpeedEvil> can you physically modify the case to put less pressure on that area?
Jan 16 08:08:21 <ying> no
Jan 16 08:08:22 <ying> http://www.amazon.de/BUGATTI-Luxus-Tasche-Neopren-Nokia/dp/B002P8TAKG/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1295164989&sr=8-3
Jan 16 08:09:07 <ying> hmm to bad
Jan 16 08:10:16 <ying> i have to live with it
Jan 16 08:10:26 <ying> k see you
Jan 16 08:10:28 <ying> bye
Jan 16 08:10:34 <kerio> or... don't use a cover?
Jan 16 08:10:48 <kerio> i mean, pretty much any pair of pants has some pockets
Jan 16 08:24:53 <Venemo_N900> good morning
Jan 16 08:31:57 <Pillum> good morning
Jan 16 08:32:34 <Pillum> MohammadAG: when is the estimated release of your opensource media player clone?
Jan 16 08:33:58 <Venemo_N900> Pillum: end of january afaik
Jan 16 08:35:00 <Pillum> oh
Jan 16 08:35:02 <Pillum> okay thans
Jan 16 08:36:20 <Pillum> k*
Jan 16 09:38:18 <kpoman> hello !
Jan 16 09:38:46 <kpoman> can someone help me on the last step of setting up the sdk on my ubuntu box ? i get errors when launching the UI
Jan 16 09:38:58 <kpoman> posted here: http://pastebin.com/6VFaneLT
Jan 16 09:47:00 <rcg1> MohammadAG: ping
Jan 16 09:48:12 <rcg1> MohammadAG: I created a small patch for your mediabar which enables to freely set the placement: http://pastebin.com/Z3zXXZB9
Jan 16 09:54:25 <kpoman> anyone ?
Jan 16 09:55:23 <lardman> morning chaps
Jan 16 10:00:28 * lardman twiddles thumbs while Tab's firmware updates
Jan 16 10:10:37 <korhojoa_> hey guys.
Jan 16 10:10:48 <RST38h> lardman: another defector! =)
Jan 16 10:10:56 <korhojoa_> so, i flashed my phone, because restoring a backup failed somehow, and it didn't boot anymore
Jan 16 10:11:05 <korhojoa_> now when it boots, it keeps crashing? wtf?
Jan 16 10:11:20 <lardman> RST38h: well my N900 is broken so I need something to mess about with
Jan 16 10:11:27 <lardman> and I'm going to try some Meego porting anyway
Jan 16 10:12:32 <Psi> so i want to get rid of my current easydebian image and get a fresh one. which package do i remove and reinstall  "easy debian" or "easy-chroot" ?
Jan 16 10:16:42 <kpoman> someone in ?
Jan 16 10:16:44 <kpoman> :s
Jan 16 10:17:09 <lardman> yes
Jan 16 10:17:30 <lardman> Psi: probably easy-debian
Jan 16 10:17:30 <kpoman> hi lardman, can you help me a bit setting up the sb ?
Jan 16 10:17:45 <lardman> urgh
Jan 16 10:17:48 <lardman> I can try
Jan 16 10:18:00 <Psi> lardman: yeah, i decided to remove both, reboot and delete the image. That way i know im getting everything new when i reinstall
Jan 16 10:18:38 <kpoman> ok, right now I have lot of not found cmd http://pastebin.com/NygegTpY
Jan 16 10:19:29 <lardman> have you installed the rootfs?
Jan 16 10:19:59 <kpoman> lardman: i followed all without any problem from here: http://wiki.forum.nokia.com/index.php/Maemo_5_SDK_installation_for_beginners
Jan 16 10:20:07 <kpoman> until the part where it launches Xephyr
Jan 16 10:21:14 <kpoman> then af-sb-init.sh start fails
Jan 16 10:21:27 <lardman> yeah, it apparently can't find any binaries
Jan 16 10:21:31 <kpoman> first it complained about missing qemu binaries
Jan 16 10:21:42 <kpoman> lardman however they are there ! I can run them by hand
Jan 16 10:22:23 <lardman> in sb that is?
Jan 16 10:22:30 <kpoman> yep
Jan 16 10:22:39 <kpoman> I did /scratchbox/login
Jan 16 10:23:11 <kpoman> I then activate target ARMEL which I downloaded already
Jan 16 10:23:20 <lardman> yep
Jan 16 10:23:32 <lardman> and once you've done that you can "cd" and do other basic tasks?
Jan 16 10:23:42 <kpoman> yep they all work
Jan 16 10:23:46 <lardman> actually whoami would be one to check
Jan 16 10:24:02 <kpoman> both run, with and without path
Jan 16 10:24:18 <lardman> ok, well I'd have a look at the af-sb-init.sh script
Jan 16 10:24:32 <lardman> I don't run the ui ever in sb, so I can't really help with specifics
Jan 16 10:24:37 <kpoman> the strange thing is there is no such line, line 1 for example
Jan 16 10:24:41 <kpoman> there are comments there
Jan 16 10:25:04 <lardman> I did think that the UI doesn't run in armel though
Jan 16 10:25:31 <kpoman> So I should download for x86 ?
Jan 16 10:25:50 <kpoman> let me try to download the stuff
Jan 16 10:25:57 <lardman> well the example page you're going from tells you to switch to x86 mode if you want to start the UI
Jan 16 10:27:02 <kpoman> lardman: this is to be able to test ? how should I make a binary for armel if I cannot test it on an emulator ?
Jan 16 10:28:26 <kpoman> I am downloading x86 right now let me see if this works
Jan 16 10:28:29 <lardman> you make it for x86, test in the emu, make for armel, move to device
Jan 16 10:29:29 <kpoman> lardman: ok, let me see :)
Jan 16 10:33:44 <kpoman> lardman: nice, it worked !
Jan 16 10:33:46 <kpoman> :)
Jan 16 10:34:22 <kpoman> lardman: do you know how do I make it install all the software bundled on the phone ?
Jan 16 10:34:29 <kpoman> I mean it is completely empty right now
Jan 16 10:34:39 <lardman> you can't install that software
Jan 16 10:36:20 <korhojoa_> guys, any ideas on how to restore old messages from a rsync backup i made?
Jan 16 10:36:22 <kpoman> why ? isnt there an x86 version of all of those ?
Jan 16 10:36:51 <korhojoa_> I sent in my phone for repairs, but seeing as it came back a entirely different hw revision, the emmc did not contain my device backups anymore
Jan 16 10:37:12 <kpoman> lardman: and also is there a way to allow it to access the internet ?
Jan 16 10:42:21 <ShadowJK> heh
Jan 16 10:42:51 <ShadowJK> I rsyncd contents back to n900, then used the backup utility for restore
Jan 16 10:43:53 <lardman> kpoman: yeah, it should work by default afair, but you can fiddle with resolv.conf iirc
Jan 16 10:48:47 <korhojoa_> ShadowJK: yeah, well. hm.
Jan 16 10:48:56 <korhojoa_> i tried restarting after i rsynced stuff back
Jan 16 10:49:00 <korhojoa_> turns out, it doesn't boot
Jan 16 10:49:22 <korhojoa_> i might try doing the backup and copying stuff over now after i've done the rsync, without a restart, hope for the best and all that.
Jan 16 10:49:44 <korhojoa_> maybe reflashing the kernel might help? i'll try that too, after getting the backup file.
Jan 16 10:49:54 <Arkenoi> I wish could run n900 IM client over X11 on my desktop to keep history and accounts in one place. I guess it is not possible atm?
Jan 16 10:49:56 <ShadowJK> I only rsynced /home/user
Jan 16 10:50:06 <korhojoa_> ah. did that save your messages?
Jan 16 10:53:11 <ShadowJK> With the rsync of /home, the backups by backup utility also came back
Jan 16 10:53:26 <ShadowJK> I did restore from backup utility after rsync
Jan 16 10:53:40 <ShadowJK> after the reboot messages were back
Jan 16 10:54:16 <ShadowJK> I think the backup utility is more reliable, because it tells conversations and such to save and exit, before backup restores their database files
Jan 16 10:55:26 <korhojoa_> ShadowJK: ah, well. /home includes MyDocs for you?
Jan 16 10:55:34 <ShadowJK> yes
Jan 16 10:55:48 <korhojoa_> ShadowJK: agreed, I know. Unfortunately I don't have the luxury of those backups.
Jan 16 10:55:54 <ShadowJK> :(
Jan 16 10:56:18 <korhojoa_> So I guess it's rsync time again, and now without a reboot to make a backup and then restore it. in hopes of not making everything blow up.
Jan 16 10:57:00 <RobbieThe1st> Wait.
Jan 16 10:57:18 <RobbieThe1st> Do just a reflash of the rootfs, then see if the backups still exist
Jan 16 10:57:21 <RobbieThe1st> they probably will
Jan 16 10:57:32 <korhojoa_> Does anyone know why there's a Mac OS directory on the vanilla emmc?
Jan 16 10:57:52 <korhojoa_> RobbieThe1st: huh? There aren't any backups, this is a replacement phone. The different HW version even states that.
Jan 16 10:57:53 <psycho_oreos> its for n900 owners who wants to connect their device to Mac machines
Jan 16 10:58:31 <korhojoa_> Mac OS creates that when you connect it, but why does it exist on there, when nokia doesn't even have a management application for macs?
Jan 16 10:58:48 <RobbieThe1st> korhojoa_: But you resync'd it, didn't you?
Jan 16 10:58:55 <RobbieThe1st> *rsync'd
Jan 16 10:59:25 <RobbieThe1st> So, the backup files would have been copied to the phone, but more than likely you screwed some boot file on the Optfs up in the process.
Jan 16 10:59:31 <psycho_oreos> its probably a place holder in case mac os is about to create it
Jan 16 10:59:48 <psycho_oreos> I don't see the point of fussing over a directory sitting there
Jan 16 10:59:55 <korhojoa_> RobbieThe1st: rsync'd what?
Jan 16 11:00:05 <korhojoa_> There are no backup files, since there's no MyDocs in my backup.
Jan 16 11:00:11 <RobbieThe1st> Oh, wait.
Jan 16 11:00:22 <RobbieThe1st> I confused you and ShadowJK
Jan 16 11:01:04 <korhojoa_> RSYNC TIME! *sigh*
Jan 16 11:01:57 <RobbieThe1st> Btw, I suggest BackupMenu for all future backup stuff. But I'm biased.
Jan 16 11:02:02 <korhojoa_> argh. first need to install ssh and rsync... :p
Jan 16 11:02:28 <korhojoa_> yes, I'd have used that too, if i'd have a good version of it usable when my phone broke
Jan 16 11:02:41 <korhojoa_> unfortunately, it was a while ago, and backupmenu really wasn't ready for usage
Jan 16 11:02:53 <ShadowJK> What happened to your phone btw?
Jan 16 11:03:05 <korhojoa_> microusb of course. what else can happen to them? :D
Jan 16 11:03:18 <RobbieThe1st> If you had any backup files, we can probably get something out of them if needed...
Jan 16 11:03:26 <ShadowJK> my old one has broken cellular :)
Jan 16 11:03:36 <korhojoa_> wow, how did that happen?
Jan 16 11:04:02 <ShadowJK> korhojoa_, how long did it take to get a replacement? I assume you sent it in through a nokia care authorized service point or through the people you nought it from?
Jan 16 11:04:03 <korhojoa_> RobbieThe1st: i've got / with the exception of useless things like /dev and /proc and whatever. also, /home/user/MyDocs
Jan 16 11:04:13 <korhojoa_> authorized care center
Jan 16 11:04:16 <korhojoa_> three weeks or so
Jan 16 11:04:21 <RobbieThe1st> Good, good.
Jan 16 11:04:44 <ShadowJK> I sent mine trhough care center, took 2 weeks and came back still broken without explanation :(
Jan 16 11:05:00 <korhojoa_> what? that's pretty nasty
Jan 16 11:05:27 <RobbieThe1st> I broke the screen on mine. Took 16 days for shipping a replacement from Hong Kong.
Jan 16 11:05:30 <korhojoa_> I got mine back with a note saying "replacement phone". That's all. I didn't pick it up though, dad did, he sent in his E75 also
Jan 16 11:05:39 <korhojoa_> haha. that's pretty nice.
Jan 16 11:05:54 <korhojoa_> seeing as I live in finland, and it took longer for me.
Jan 16 11:06:10 <ShadowJK> korhojoa_, it works if I hold it still. If they just put it into jig and ran diagnostics they wouldn't have noticed the brokenness
Jan 16 11:06:28 <ShadowJK> it only breaks if I move it, or if I'm pressing too hard on the keys
Jan 16 11:06:31 <korhojoa_> did you send it back and tell them to fix the damn thing? i would have
Jan 16 11:06:46 <korhojoa_> cell desoldered itself, strange. did you get it too hot or something?
Jan 16 11:08:27 <korhojoa_> well. there it goes.
Jan 16 11:08:59 <korhojoa_> I find it strange that people don't use the -P and -z options when using rsy
Jan 16 11:09:10 <ShadowJK> there was that one time when I was running Navigation, screen on continously, and 3g streaming internet radio with fm transmitter for 2 hours with charger
Jan 16 11:09:10 <korhojoa_> +nc
Jan 16 11:09:22 <ShadowJK> it was uncomfortably hot after that
Jan 16 11:09:39 <ShadowJK> -avP -z -e 'ssh -c arcfour'
Jan 16 11:09:40 <ShadowJK> :)
Jan 16 11:10:35 <korhojoa_> why not -avPze 'ssh -c arcfour'
Jan 16 11:11:24 <ShadowJK> *shrug* :)
Jan 16 11:11:33 <korhojoa_> ? :D
Jan 16 11:11:55 <korhojoa_> I run navigation constantly, with 3g streaming internet radio and the fmtx for ~4 hours when i drive to my parents
Jan 16 11:12:03 <korhojoa_> i do that maybe once or twice a month
Jan 16 11:12:40 <korhojoa_> of course, screen on. can't do it with the car charger though, the battery goes flat. the wall charger manages to keep it from discharging, but doesn't charge it either
Jan 16 11:13:28 <korhojoa_> so i have to keep a inverter in the car, which is a bit dumb, but eh. could one make a charger with enough juice to let the phone do all this stuff without having it die from lack of power? or will the charging circuits not be able to take more than 1.2A
Jan 16 11:13:34 <ShadowJK> I used the DC-10, it's 1200mA and battery was 66% when I arrived, left with full battery :)
Jan 16 11:14:34 <korhojoa_> wow, hm. strange. is that their highest-power charger?
Jan 16 11:16:42 <korhojoa_> I'm currently seeing something like this being transferred, is there a way to find the directory for the messages in conversations too?home/user/.modest/cache/mail/imap/korhojoa__imap.gmail.com_993/folders/INBOX/4445.~ 1638400  23%  127.14kB/s    0:00:41
Jan 16 11:17:40 <ShadowJK> I think conversations is one big database
Jan 16 11:17:52 <korhojoa_> http://europe.nokia.com/find-products/accessories/all-accessories/power/chargers/nokia-charging-plate-dt-600 ooh. this seems fun. (i got stuck on looking up chargers for the phone)
Jan 16 11:18:17 <korhojoa_> yeah, that's what i thought too. I just don't know where the files are. I hope that they're not on the emmc, because then they're gone :<
Jan 16 11:18:18 <ShadowJK> it's just a table with lots of outputs
Jan 16 11:18:25 <ShadowJK> :P
Jan 16 11:19:20 <korhojoa_> yup, i realize.
Jan 16 11:19:42 <ShadowJK> when I first saw it I thought it's be wireless charging :(
Jan 16 11:20:05 <ShadowJK> but it's cool that nokia is also coming out with external battery chargers
Jan 16 11:20:17 <korhojoa_> same here :< i wish they would start putting it in their phones. would really put them ahead
Jan 16 11:20:20 <ShadowJK> instead of the explode-my-battery chinese ones
Jan 16 11:20:39 <korhojoa_> hahaha. there's a nokia bicycle charger kit
Jan 16 11:21:17 <ShadowJK> but they'll probably add a 0 to the price as usual, so people will be using dubious crap, and inverter+wallcharger instead of a real carcharger :)
Jan 16 11:21:33 <MohammadAG> i'm sure the rate of discharge will be a lot bigger than that of charging
Jan 16 11:21:34 <ShadowJK> because their DC-10 IS pretty expensive compared to getting an inverter
Jan 16 11:21:47 <Venemo_N900> hey guys
Jan 16 11:21:52 <MohammadAG> yo
Jan 16 11:21:53 <kpoman> lardman: i do see openssh however I dont know which ip has the virtual os
Jan 16 11:21:56 <korhojoa_> the bicycle in the picture for the bicycle charger is a finnish military one :D
Jan 16 11:22:05 <MohammadAG> lol
Jan 16 11:22:14 <korhojoa_> MohammadAG: always? the charging circuits can't handle enough current?
Jan 16 11:22:49 <lardman> kpoman: does it matter, surely all you need is for apt-get to work?
Jan 16 11:22:58 <MohammadAG> no, your legs can't handle enough cycling to power an N900
Jan 16 11:23:07 <korhojoa_> hilarious. http://europe.nokia.com/MEDIA_BANK_100/R6Accessories/Misc/Nokia_Bicycle_Charger_Kit/Overview/Nokia_Bicycle_Charger_Kit_overview3_604x604.png
Jan 16 11:23:50 <kpoman> lardman: internet access is not working on the virtual. I want to configure its network, however I dont have the xterm package on the app list
Jan 16 11:24:05 <kpoman> lardman: so how do I check what is going on on the network of the virt
Jan 16 11:24:16 <lardman>  /scratchbox/login gives you a term....
Jan 16 11:24:56 <jonaskoelker> Hi all.  Whenever I edit my hildon desktop menu, it reverts to the default menu but without the "other..." item in the bottom right corner.  What gives?  Editing also removes <Include><All/></Include> from my ~/.config/menus/hildon.menu ...
Jan 16 11:25:10 <Venemo_N900> guys, is there anyone who managed to get any of the 3 MSN plugins working?
Jan 16 11:25:11 <jonaskoelker> I'v had mymenu and catorise installed, but not at the same time (IIRC)
Jan 16 11:25:35 <kpoman> lardman: ifconfig on that sb prompt shows my host ip, not the gues
Jan 16 11:25:37 <kpoman> t
Jan 16 11:25:39 <MohammadAG> Venemo_N900, pecan works fine
Jan 16 11:25:57 <Venemo_N900> MohammadAG: has my favourite bug been fixed in it?
Jan 16 11:26:10 <MohammadAG> no :P
Jan 16 11:26:27 <korhojoa_> MohammadAG: oh, that's why you have a electric bike.
Jan 16 11:26:31 <lardman> kpoman: well it uses the same connection I imagine
Jan 16 11:26:50 <Venemo_N900> MohammadAG: so it is still totally unusable :(
Jan 16 11:26:56 <MohammadAG> a tredmill can probably charge the N900
Jan 16 11:27:40 <Venemo_N900> MohammadAG: does the bug occour to you too?
Jan 16 11:28:05 <MohammadAG> nope, pecan works fine
Jan 16 11:28:09 <MohammadAG> haze otoh...
Jan 16 11:28:14 <Venemo_N900> MohammadAG: otoh?
Jan 16 11:28:28 <MohammadAG> ~wtf otoh
Jan 16 11:28:29 <infobot> OTOH: on the other hand
Jan 16 11:28:33 <MohammadAG> :)
Jan 16 11:28:48 <Venemo_N900> thx
Jan 16 11:28:51 <MohammadAG> brb :P
Jan 16 11:29:17 <Venemo_N900> I used Butterfly, but that ceased to work some time ago
Jan 16 11:29:31 <jonaskoelker> I have converted MyDocs to ext3; how can I automount it on startup?
Jan 16 11:30:35 <ShadowJK> N900 usually only takes 950mA charging current
Jan 16 11:30:45 <valdyn> jonaskoelker: fix /etc/fstab ?
Jan 16 11:31:04 <ShadowJK> the charging circuit can be programmed for 1250mA, but stuff starts getting kinda hot at that
Jan 16 11:32:24 <korhojoa_> well they're pretty hot at 950mA anyway
Jan 16 11:33:18 <jonaskoelker> valdyn: it's autogenerated by a script.  I've fixed the script to spew the right fstab line (I think), but MyDocs doesn't mount on boot :(
Jan 16 11:33:49 <ShadowJK> on my old N900 (haven't checked my new yet), there's about 1.3W of dissipation :)
Jan 16 11:34:12 <valdyn> jonaskoelker: im not that familiar with the n900 boot process. It's possible that ext3 is not compiled in and modules not accessible at the point where fstab is read
Jan 16 11:35:07 <jonaskoelker> valdyn: I'm thinking I could insert a mount command late in the process.  But where would it go?
Jan 16 11:35:40 <valdyn> jonaskoelker: http://sumoudou.org/%E7%9B%B8%E6%92%B2%E5%A4%96%EF%BC%9ARepartition%20the%20Nokia%20N900.html
Jan 16 11:36:26 <korhojoa_> hmm. i made a backup of emmc somewhere on my sister's computer... it should be there...
Jan 16 11:44:07 <jonaskoelker> does anyone know if partition type vs. file system mismatches matters?
Jan 16 11:45:02 <Venemo_N900> oh, noo
Jan 16 11:45:16 <Venemo_N900> pecan is still a crappy piece of bullsh*t
Jan 16 11:45:19 <Venemo_N900> :(
Jan 16 11:45:31 <jonaskoelker> sorry to hear that :(
Jan 16 11:46:32 <Venemo_N900> every time I log in with it, it shows an "authorisation request" from all the people who I deleted from msn ages ago
Jan 16 11:48:26 <ShadowJK> jonaskoelker, depends
Jan 16 11:49:25 <ThreeM> is the N900 able to play HD Movies?!
Jan 16 11:49:26 <Venemo_N900> I reported this bug about half a year ago to the author, and others also whined about it on TMO... the author doesn't care.
Jan 16 11:56:48 <Venemo_N900> MohammadAG: does pecan show the availability of your contacts in the contacts app?
Jan 16 12:00:36 <Venemo_N900> MohammadAG: haha! contacts app crashes when I delete a contact from pecan
Jan 16 12:10:56 <jonaskoelker> MohammadAG: judging from the maemo forum, you seem to know your way around the hildon menu (among other things).  Do you have any idea why, when I edit my menu, my "<Include>" section of ~/.config/menus/hildon.menu gets removed?
Jan 16 12:11:20 <jonaskoelker> do I need it there?  If not there, where?  Why do I keep getting reverted to the default menu except without the "Other ..." button?
Jan 16 12:12:03 <MohammadAG> Use appmefo, it's better than editing it manually :p
Jan 16 12:13:10 <jonaskoelker> MohammadAG: what about hildon-desktop 's menu editor?
Jan 16 12:13:28 <jonaskoelker> MohammadAG: in any case, I think my problems are related to uninstalling mymenu
Jan 16 12:16:37 <rcg1> MohammadAG: i created a small patch for your mediabar which enables to freely set the placement: http://pastebin.com/Z3zXXZB9
Jan 16 12:20:33 <MohammadAG> rcg1, cool!
Jan 16 12:20:51 <MohammadAG> rcg1, got a gitorious account that you can send an MR to?
Jan 16 12:21:09 <mikki-kun> MohammadAG: hey there :) uhhh, just wanted to ask you if "hildon-desktop_matan_2.2.140-1+0m5_armel.deb" is incompatible with your "hildon-status-menu_0.3.39+0m5_armel.deb"... at least if rotating from landscape to portrait it works, but i cannot call it while being portrait
Jan 16 12:21:11 <MohammadAG> thp, http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=68294 :P
Jan 16 12:21:33 <MohammadAG> mikki-kun, does it show a black border, or does it not show at all?
Jan 16 12:21:52 <MohammadAG> and umm
Jan 16 12:21:54 <mikki-kun> it doesn't show at all when i try to call it
Jan 16 12:22:01 <MohammadAG> the hildon-desktop for that patch is based on matan's
Jan 16 12:22:12 <MohammadAG> wget http://mohammadag.xceleo.org/public/maemo/debfiles/portrait/hildon-status-menu/hildon-desktop_2.2.140-1+0m5_armel.deb
Jan 16 12:22:13 <mikki-kun> so it should work?
Jan 16 12:22:13 <MohammadAG> dpkg -i hildon-desktop_2.2.140-1+0m5_armel.deb
Jan 16 12:22:33 <MohammadAG> with that deb, yes
Jan 16 12:23:30 <rcg1> MohammadAG: not yet. i am going to create one. but i am not at all familiar with git yet. so probably i won't get the MR right on the first shot...
Jan 16 12:23:37 <mikki-kun> MohammadAG: lol ^^ "
Jan 16 12:23:53 <mikki-kun> gconftool-2: I've been haxored to use xml::/etc/gconf/gconf.xml.defaults as the config source.
Jan 16 12:24:15 <jonaskoelker> Yay, my hildon menu works like I want it to :)
Jan 16 12:24:51 <thp> MohammadAG: for the win :)
Jan 16 12:25:15 <thp> MohammadAG: so you are going to add the two additional options for inclusion into the community ssu? =)
Jan 16 12:26:03 <MohammadAG> rcg1, then I'll merge it in a bit :)
Jan 16 12:26:10 <thp> MohammadAG: btw, did you disable blurring in hildon-desktop or why do your screenshots look so shopped?
Jan 16 12:26:13 <MohammadAG> mikki-kun, that's the default postinst from hildon-desktop :p
Jan 16 12:26:26 <MohammadAG> thp, it's a waste of resources :p
Jan 16 12:26:31 <MohammadAG> (blurring)
Jan 16 12:26:58 <MohammadAG> I still want it swapped for darkening (a la MeeGo or Symbian^3)
Jan 16 12:27:14 <thp> MohammadAG: a 50% opaque black layer (non-blurring) would be nice, though
Jan 16 12:27:28 <thp> yes, i think that's about the same thing
Jan 16 12:28:21 <lcuk> darkening is simpler because it does not require adjacenet pixel knowledge, but the blurring already occurs at half resolution direct on the pvr afaik?
Jan 16 12:29:33 <RobbieThe1st> Out of curiosity, guys: A while back, I was messing around in the hildon transitions ini file. I'm not sure what all I changed, but -something- caused my applications-menu application icons to have a red background/overlay on top of the actual background. Any idea what I might have changed?
Jan 16 12:29:52 <MohammadAG> saturation?
Jan 16 12:30:03 <MohammadAG> thp, still, makes everything go a bit slow :p
Jan 16 12:30:22 <Venemo_N900> RobbieThe1st: that is some bug I encountered too
Jan 16 12:30:56 <Venemo_N900> MohammadAG: no, saturation is something else
Jan 16 12:31:15 <RobbieThe1st> http://robbiethe1st.afraid.org/images/IMGP2698-small.jpeg
Jan 16 12:31:28 <RobbieThe1st> Venemo_N900: Huh, interesting
Jan 16 12:32:17 <Venemo_N900> RobbieThe1st: I think I edited something, rebooted, and it got fixed then
Jan 16 12:32:30 <thp> MohammadAG: anyway, are you working on that tv out applet or was that just a PoC? :)
Jan 16 12:33:34 <MohammadAG> thp, it does what the original one does atm, so it's more of a code dump :p
Jan 16 12:33:52 <MohammadAG> it's just a string in gconf, /system/tvout
Jan 16 12:33:55 <RobbieThe1st> Interesting. Anyway, I'm off. Cya all.
Jan 16 12:34:14 <MohammadAG> thp, I replaced the screenshot :)
Jan 16 12:36:20 <Gyjf> is it only me or can the n900 max transfer files over network in 900kb/s
Jan 16 12:36:47 <lcuk> thats 900kb more per second than a postit note
Jan 16 12:36:48 <Gyjf> or up to 1mb/s some times
Jan 16 12:37:04 <Gyjf> yes
Jan 16 12:37:05 <thp> MohammadAG: oh hello familiar blur effect :p
Jan 16 12:37:07 <lcuk> you can do a lot with so much bandwidth :)
Jan 16 12:37:19 <Gyjf> i guess
Jan 16 12:37:33 <Gyjf> its just that large files take time :P
Jan 16 12:37:40 <lcuk> usb
Jan 16 12:38:02 <Gyjf> but wireless is so convenient :D
Jan 16 12:38:23 <Gyjf> drop files in a webserver, go download (or wget)
Jan 16 12:38:48 <lcuk> for reasonable files wifi is great
Jan 16 12:39:02 <lcuk> for meego images its a bit more of a pita
Jan 16 12:40:49 <Gyjf> im transfering music atm
Jan 16 12:42:29 <MohammadAG> thp, rewriting parts as FOSS apps seems to be a trend lately :P
Jan 16 12:42:40 <MohammadAG> thp, maybe we should have a maemo-foss repository on gitorious?
Jan 16 12:44:12 <MohammadAG> guess I need to subclass the picker to control height
Jan 16 12:44:19 * MohammadAG sighs, starts doing that ^
Jan 16 12:47:13 <rcg1> MohammadAG: i think i found some good tutorial on how to do merge requests. let's see if i get this done ;)
Jan 16 12:48:26 <lcuk> rcg1, once you confirm the tutorial works, make sure you post a link :)
Jan 16 13:03:10 <rcg1> http://techbase.kde.org/Development/Tutorials/Git/Pushing <- that's the tutorial i followed
Jan 16 13:04:14 <rcg1> though, they missed one thing, which may be essential for a total git beginner like me: prior to puhing one should do a "git commit -a"
Jan 16 13:04:47 <roota> goog Flying
Jan 16 13:04:48 <rcg1> lcuk: ^
Jan 16 13:05:01 <lcuk> rcg1, yeah, but thats normal git usage and explained by 101 standard git tutorials :)
Jan 16 13:05:02 <roota> good flying
Jan 16 13:06:16 <rcg1> lcuk: ic :)
Jan 16 13:07:23 <lcuk> rcg1, on my wall I have "git commit -a -m "~~~~"; git push; " as my normal commit line for reminder
Jan 16 13:08:08 <FauxFaux> git commit -am '....'
Jan 16 13:10:22 * RST38h amusedly watches lemmings "designing" a tablet on tmo
Jan 16 13:13:00 <rcg1> lcuk: hehe, ic... i think i'll get accustomed to this over time. only used subversion so far ;)
Jan 16 13:13:31 <rcg1> most probably should add something like this to my cheat cheets as well :)
Jan 16 13:14:28 <Arkenoi> is there a pdf reader that is capable of both reflow and remembering position? absense of both features is major showstopper for reading pdf books on a generic handheld :-(
Jan 16 13:14:44 <roota> second version stand alone build up so just ..... :)
Jan 16 13:14:44 <thp> MohammadAG: there's a community ssu repo already
Jan 16 13:14:52 <rcg1> MohammadAG: i send the merge request btw.
Jan 16 13:15:06 <roota> ssu -- blue sky .
Jan 16 13:15:22 <MohammadAG> thp, so rewrites should be put under that?
Jan 16 13:16:11 <roota> ^^ ... drive code  ... ^^~~ but not yet.
Jan 16 13:16:59 <thp> MohammadAG: i think if the rewrites are targetted for the community ssu (i.e. equal or better functionality than the original packages) then yes
Jan 16 13:17:22 <thp> MohammadAG: but it's your call, obviously ;)
Jan 16 13:18:28 <Venemo_N900> how is it possible that the N900 charges while bme is offő
Jan 16 13:18:32 <Venemo_N900> how is it possible that the N900 charges while bme is off?
Jan 16 13:18:41 <lardman> does it?
Jan 16 13:19:00 <thp> MohammadAG: if there's e.g. a better TV out applet, would there be any reason not to replace the proprietary package with the FLOSS rewrite?
Jan 16 13:19:13 <MohammadAG> nope :)
Jan 16 13:19:25 <MohammadAG> Venemo_N900, bq2700 chip
Jan 16 13:19:34 <Venemo_N900> lardman: to my surprise yes, but the led shows steady orange instead of the pulsating one
Jan 16 13:19:36 <MohammadAG> (or was it 27000...)
Jan 16 13:19:52 <MohammadAG> that means your battery is almost empty, and it's emergency-charging the devicer
Jan 16 13:19:53 <lardman> ah, I must be thinking of the N8x0 which required the kernel to startup
Jan 16 13:19:54 <MohammadAG> -r
Jan 16 13:20:12 <MohammadAG> charging is @ 100mA (afaik), you better start bme
Jan 16 13:20:22 <Venemo_N900> k
Jan 16 13:20:51 <lardman> ah, so it's to avoid the N8x0 problem of not having enough juice to start the kernel to start charging I guess
Jan 16 13:21:20 <Venemo_N900> MohammadAG: ok, started bme
Jan 16 13:22:30 <thp> lardman: was that the situation where one would have to put the n800 in a freezer to let it start up?
Jan 16 13:23:29 <lardman> yep :)
Jan 16 13:26:29 <kerio> wait, what?
Jan 16 13:29:18 <alterego> Eh?
Jan 16 13:29:28 * alterego doesn't remember having to do that.
Jan 16 13:30:16 <roota> I thinking n800 it's "trumbler or register" 100mA  It's 0.1A in n 800
Jan 16 13:33:35 <roota> maemo persons  see you later .. so drinking with .
Jan 16 13:36:21 <ShadowJK> Venemo_N900, it only charges it to 25% or so without software control (bme)
Jan 16 13:36:30 <ShadowJK> and at low rate
Jan 16 13:37:05 <alterego> Hrm, I was going to do something today, with QML I think ..
Jan 16 13:37:12 <alterego> Hrm ...
Jan 16 13:38:55 <ShadowJK> pulsating led is generated by the programmable led controller
Jan 16 13:39:12 <ShadowJK> steady led is generated by the charging chip itself directly
Jan 16 13:39:43 <Venemo_N900> ShadowJK: thanks
Jan 16 13:41:10 <ShadowJK> DocScrutinizer's battery hotswap instructions actually rely on bq24150's independeny emrgency mode, and getting n900 power consumption below the charge current bq24150 uses without software control :)
Jan 16 13:54:53 <Venemo_N900> lcuk: ping
Jan 16 13:55:36 <lcuk> pong only if its about magnum related topics, its sunday i am resting
Jan 16 13:56:36 <Venemo_N900> lcuk: no, it is unrelated to magnum :P
Jan 16 13:57:03 <Venemo_N900> lcuk: have your rest, I'll ping you tomorrow
Jan 16 13:57:23 <alterego> s/resting/hungover/
Jan 16 13:59:48 <MohammadAG> thp, name suggestions? I'd use maemo-applet-tvout but it has maemo in it :p
Jan 16 14:00:58 <MohammadAG> oh, git names can be changed, right
Jan 16 14:01:52 <Venemo_N900> MohammadAG: use the name cp-applet-tvout
Jan 16 14:02:03 <lcuk> alterego, haha most likely yes :)
Jan 16 14:02:05 <MohammadAG> libcptvout
Jan 16 14:02:07 <Venemo_N900> MohammadAG: or community-tvout
Jan 16 14:02:08 <MohammadAG> the name of the binary
Jan 16 14:02:19 <MohammadAG> I already pushed it :p
Jan 16 14:03:19 <Venemo_N900> k
Jan 16 14:16:49 <MohammadAG> alterego, ever used g_dgettext in Qt?
Jan 16 14:22:32 <alterego> Nope
Jan 16 14:24:06 <MohammadAG> it works :p
Jan 16 14:24:25 <MohammadAG> pickerDialog->setWindowTitle(QString(g_dgettext("osso-tv-out", "tvou_fi_tv_out")));
Jan 16 14:30:46 <Venemo_N900> MohammadAG: why wouldn't it work?
Jan 16 14:37:04 <thp> MohammadAG: will you make the "new" strings (that are not in osso-tv-out) translatable? i can contribute the german translation
Jan 16 14:37:14 <alterego> You don't need 'QString()'
Jan 16 14:37:40 <korhojoa_> joyous news guys
Jan 16 14:37:44 <korhojoa_> i found a MyDocs backup
Jan 16 14:37:49 <korhojoa_> -> i found a device backup
Jan 16 14:37:54 <korhojoa_> -> all is well!
Jan 16 14:38:30 <MohammadAG> thp, if there are any new strings, sure, I always use tr()
Jan 16 14:38:57 <ShadowJK> korhojoa_, awesome :)
Jan 16 14:43:25 <korhojoa_> haha- the dumb thing is, i lost the backup in my home directory on the server. it was even named MyDocs ... felt a bit dumb after i found it with a find / | grep settings.zip
Jan 16 14:44:30 * DocScrutinizer wonders why not "find / -name settings.zip"
Jan 16 14:45:04 <korhojoa_> probably because i never really looked up on how to use that command and just always used grep on the output
Jan 16 14:45:14 <korhojoa_> but that does seem a lot more handy
Jan 16 14:46:54 <DocScrutinizer> esp resource saving, and probably faster
Jan 16 14:48:04 <MohammadAG> heh
Jan 16 14:48:53 <DocScrutinizer> "find / -name settings.zip -a -newer somefile -a -size..."
Jan 16 14:49:23 <DocScrutinizer> man find helps ;-D
Jan 16 14:50:22 <korhojoa_> shukran.
Jan 16 14:51:03 <alterego> find is an awesome command
Jan 16 14:51:21 <alterego> Certainly one of my favourites
Jan 16 14:51:43 <korhojoa_> i like grep.
Jan 16 14:51:55 <korhojoa_> i guess you should like awk if you're 1337
Jan 16 15:00:22 <n900-space> \o/
Jan 16 15:12:42 <timeless_xchat> hello world
Jan 16 15:13:14 <timeless_xchat> who works on app downloader?
Jan 16 15:13:38 <timeless_xchat> "Unfortunately no application found." - kinda sucks
Jan 16 15:14:35 <timeless_xchat> it let me search for "" and gave me 0 results
Jan 16 15:15:34 <lcuk> timeless_xchat, danielwilms, wazd x-fade collaborating i believe
Jan 16 15:16:00 <lcuk> catch daniel in work in the morning
Jan 16 15:16:04 <Pauly> hello
Jan 16 15:16:24 <timeless_xchat> i'm on vacation
Jan 16 15:16:33 <timeless_xchat> please queue+proxy
Jan 16 15:16:40 <timeless_xchat> it's 7am!
Jan 16 15:16:55 <Venemo_N900> lcuk: looking at telepathy-butterfly it seems that the maintainer is a collaboran, called Johnny Lamb
Jan 16 15:17:04 <timeless_xchat> is there a brightness thing that lets me have a dim screen?
Jan 16 15:17:15 <Pauly> trying to compile Qtwitter to Fremantle but its dependency qca wont build
Jan 16 15:17:22 <Venemo_N900> lcuk: could you contact him to update the version in -devel to the latest upstream?
Jan 16 15:17:49 <lcuk> Venemo_N900, if johnny is not on irc, use his email clearly stated in the maintainer address.
Jan 16 15:18:00 <lcuk> ask him to pop into related channel :)
Jan 16 15:18:12 <lcuk> ie, diy its sunday.
Jan 16 15:18:34 <timeless_xchat> s/its/it's/
Jan 16 15:18:43 <lcuk> ie, diy it's sunday.
Jan 16 15:19:08 * lcuk needs an xchat rule for that one :)
Jan 16 15:19:09 <Venemo_N900> it's sunday and I wanna use msn
Jan 16 15:22:44 <timeless_xchat> oh, cute
Jan 16 15:23:00 * timeless_xchat figures out how to kinda use appdownloader
Jan 16 15:23:33 <jonwil> Whats the deal with packages that are in the "Maemo 5 device" repositories and also in the Extras repos but are not in the SDK/free repos?
Jan 16 15:23:41 <jonwil> example being apt-transport-https
Jan 16 15:26:51 * timeless_xchat goes on a bug filing spree
Jan 16 15:34:13 <Venemo_N900> hey smoku
Jan 16 15:34:25 <smoku> y0
Jan 16 15:40:19 <timeless_xchat> hey, does extras-devel have distinct repos for pr1.1/1.2/1.3?
Jan 16 15:40:39 <DocScrutinizer> timeless_xchat: brightness thing? elaborate
Jan 16 15:42:42 <DocScrutinizer> timeless_xchat: (distinct repos) alas not
Jan 16 15:43:49 <timeless_xchat> i want brightness settings that work in dark rooms
Jan 16 15:43:57 <DocScrutinizer> ...which kinda leaves you fscked if you rely on several apps from -devel, and want to restore 1.2
Jan 16 15:44:22 <DocScrutinizer> timeless_xchat: there's simple brightness widget
Jan 16 15:44:26 <DocScrutinizer> applet?
Jan 16 15:45:27 <timeless_xchat> does it let me have a screen that's dimmer than nokia's dimmest setting?
Jan 16 15:45:51 <DocScrutinizer> prolly not
Jan 16 15:45:53 <timeless_xchat> and extra menu applets are really unwanted
Jan 16 15:46:39 <DocScrutinizer> sure, I can smell this from the wording " is there a brightness thing that lets me have a dim screen?"
Jan 16 15:47:01 <timeless_xchat> i already have clock, profile, network, bluetooth, presence, mfe, vpn-1, vpn-2
Jan 16 15:47:23 <timeless_xchat> plus a usb thing occasionally and something else..
Jan 16 15:47:48 <smoku> DocScrutinizer, you should push those apps to extras-testing and extras if you think they're ready.  -devel is for devs
Jan 16 15:48:09 <DocScrutinizer> uhuh
Jan 16 15:49:00 <DocScrutinizer> smoku: how about backup app does this pushing for me?
Jan 16 15:49:04 <DocScrutinizer> :-P
Jan 16 15:49:13 * timeless_xchat kicks a manager for back-is-dataloss (in browser)
Jan 16 15:50:48 <DocScrutinizer> smoku: fact is I can't restore my 1.2 system
Jan 16 15:50:51 <SpeedEvil> timeless_xchat: The brightness can be reduced below minimum.
Jan 16 15:51:23 <timeless_xchat> speedevil : how?
Jan 16 15:51:34 <smoku> DocScrutinizer, yes. and it's your own fault ;P
Jan 16 15:52:42 <DocScrutinizer> smoku: so yes, either Nokia should have branched the testing and devel repos to have a 1.2 version, or (eeeek) they should have moved *all* apps from testing and devel to extras-1.2 prior to rolling out 1.3
Jan 16 15:53:06 <DocScrutinizer> smoku: :-x I don't want to get offensive
Jan 16 15:53:24 * SpeedEvil searches.
Jan 16 15:53:45 <DocScrutinizer> timeless_xchat: echo 1 > /sys/*/*/brightness
Jan 16 15:53:51 <SpeedEvil> yeah
Jan 16 15:53:54 <SpeedEvil> and it's 2
Jan 16 15:54:03 <smoku> DocScrutinizer, me too.  IIRC extras-testing and extras have different repos for different PR. only -devel runs tle latest SDK always
Jan 16 15:54:04 <SpeedEvil> the hardware does not support '1'
Jan 16 15:54:21 <SpeedEvil> this is not - IMO - quite as dim as you might want in truly dark rooms.
Jan 16 15:54:46 <timeless_xchat> speedevil : any control panel for this?
Jan 16 15:54:52 <DocScrutinizer> nope
Jan 16 15:55:01 <SpeedEvil> I use a queen-beecon
Jan 16 15:55:05 <SpeedEvil> that does it
Jan 16 15:55:08 <timeless_xchat> ?
Jan 16 15:55:15 <SpeedEvil> I should investigate patching, but...
Jan 16 15:55:17 <smoku> DocScrutinizer, so only -devel can screw your dependencies
Jan 16 15:55:26 <DocScrutinizer> until ambient light changes, which will reset the brighness
Jan 16 15:55:32 <SpeedEvil> queen-beecon is a press-button on desktop
Jan 16 15:55:47 <SpeedEvil> DocScrutinizer: not if you also use simple-brightness-widget, and set brightness
Jan 16 15:55:51 <SpeedEvil> At least IMO
Jan 16 15:55:54 <SpeedEvil> E
Jan 16 15:56:04 <DocScrutinizer> smoku: this conversation is boring to me, and doesn't teach me anything new
Jan 16 15:56:19 <timeless_xchat> this seems too complicated
Jan 16 15:56:25 <timeless_xchat> i'm an end user
Jan 16 15:56:40 <timeless_xchat> i was kicked out of my hotel room for keeping other occupant awake
Jan 16 15:56:57 <kerio> what
Jan 16 15:57:02 <DocScrutinizer> SpeedEvil: even if you use simple brightness, unless max brightness is chosen there, which is more like a bug in simple brightness
Jan 16 15:57:14 <timeless_xchat> (technically, that was mostly because the keyboard was too loud, but...)
Jan 16 15:57:27 <SpeedEvil> oops. :(
Jan 16 15:58:10 <smoku> DocScrutinizer, you brought it on yourself. you shouldn't be whining in the first place ;P
Jan 16 15:58:32 <DocScrutinizer> you shouldn't upset me before my first coffee kicks in
Jan 16 15:58:37 <ShadowJK> iirc lots of people asked on maemo-users before N900 was released, whether the "cant go drak enough" bug will be fixed. Someone @nokia said that the team in the closed light room (or something) said it's a huge effort to make step-less brightness adjustment work with ALS, but that lowest setting is going to be really low
Jan 16 15:58:57 <DocScrutinizer> smoku: and no, it's been timeless_xchat who brought it up
Jan 16 15:59:13 <jonwil> the more I use my N900, the more I am glad I bought it instead of an Android handset :)
Jan 16 15:59:14 <ShadowJK> Dimmer than n8x0 for sure, but still "omg put away that lightsaber you're blinding me" level when in darkness :)
Jan 16 15:59:47 <SpeedEvil> The low-level hardware is unfortunately bright at minimum brightness
Jan 16 15:59:58 <SpeedEvil> But it's bearable
Jan 16 16:00:05 <timeless_xchat> shadowjk: remind me in 10 or so days to smack someone
Jan 16 16:00:05 <SpeedEvil> I should measure this.
Jan 16 16:00:08 <ShadowJK> also volume doesn't go low enough when somewhere quiet, but that can be manually adjusted with alsamixer -c p somewhat
Jan 16 16:00:23 <ShadowJK> -c 0
Jan 16 16:02:16 <DocScrutinizer> SpeedEvil: I bet that's caused by the linear nature of PWM, vs the log nature of physiological brightness perception
Jan 16 16:03:15 <DocScrutinizer> s/log/ln
Jan 16 16:04:16 <DocScrutinizer> so with a e.g 8bit PWM counter you got 8 distinct levels of brightness
Jan 16 16:06:06 <TheOneLaw> 3bits give you 8 levels
Jan 16 16:06:10 <DocScrutinizer> they could have logarithmized the brightness function
Jan 16 16:06:19 <alterego> Bored, bored, bored.
Jan 16 16:06:21 <DocScrutinizer> maybe even by analog means
Jan 16 16:06:34 <alterego> Think I might try an get data working for me in MeeGo
Jan 16 16:07:01 * lardman|home fits his new O2 data only SIM into the Tablet
Jan 16 16:07:12 <alterego> lardman|home: noice :)
Jan 16 16:07:30 <alterego> I've been tempted to get a data only, but I do tend to text a lot ..
Jan 16 16:08:13 <lardman|home> well I want to run a normal phone at the same time, so decided data only for £5/month was pretty good
Jan 16 16:08:28 * DocScrutinizer thinks about a bipolar transistor in GND end of backlight LED, with an emitter R, and base fed by integrated voltage of the PWM'd VDD end of backlight LED
Jan 16 16:08:30 <lardman|home> only 500MB, but as I have wifi most places that will do
Jan 16 16:09:24 <timeless_xchat> alterego: the USA has web-sms gateways
Jan 16 16:09:48 * timeless_xchat wonders if google voice handles sms
Jan 16 16:10:28 <lardman|home> yeah I was thinking of setting up something like that for sms
Jan 16 16:11:22 <DocScrutinizer> (VCI) of course that would have massive impact on efficiency with low brightness settings, as increasingly large chunks of power are dissipated by the transistor
Jan 16 16:12:16 <lardman|home> actually data only is a misnomer
Jan 16 16:12:19 <DocScrutinizer> but then, OTOH, power consumption wouldn't be any worse than now, just lower limit for brighness is way better
Jan 16 16:12:29 <lardman|home> free data only, I could still send sms if I wanted to pay for them
Jan 16 16:12:50 <SpeedEvil> DocScrutinizer: the LCD backlight is controlled over a serial bus - it's not PWMd on the SoC side
Jan 16 16:12:56 <DocScrutinizer> BOM: ~4 components
Jan 16 16:13:09 <DocScrutinizer> SpeedEvil: I know
Jan 16 16:13:33 <DocScrutinizer> SpeedEvil: so above suggestion is addressed to the LCD manuf
Jan 16 16:15:16 <DocScrutinizer> btw LP5523 nicely deals with this problem
Jan 16 16:15:55 <DocScrutinizer> by implementing a logarithmic steering characteristic
Jan 16 16:16:46 <DocScrutinizer> that's how ramp-up/down works at all, for indicator light
Jan 16 16:17:57 * DocScrutinizer frowns about no datasheet available even thru the darkest channels, for that LCM
Jan 16 16:17:59 <jonwil> why would you want both a N900 with a data SIM and also a regular phone? Isnt the N900 good enough as a regular phone?
Jan 16 16:20:53 <korhojoa_> timeless_xchat: gv handles sms
Jan 16 16:23:57 <MohammadAG> right
Jan 16 16:24:03 <MohammadAG> how do i reboot an N8 that's stuck
Jan 16 16:24:10 <MohammadAG> without a removable battery
Jan 16 16:24:34 <MohammadAG> oh, 10s reboots it
Jan 16 16:24:39 <GAN900> Throw it at the wall?
Jan 16 16:24:47 <GAN900> Put a pin in the mic hole?
Jan 16 16:25:24 <pahartik> jonwil: I have Nokia 6151 which I used for mobile network uplink before Nokia N900... Still using it for listening to audio content (MPEG-4 AAC and FM tuner) with wired headphones and receiving rare voice telephone calls with Bluetooth headset
Jan 16 16:25:42 <MohammadAG> GAN900, I'd try those but it's not mine :p
Jan 16 16:26:06 <GAN900> MohammadAG, even better. :P
Jan 16 16:28:37 <DocScrutinizer> SpeedEvil: see schematics, p.6, N1350
Jan 16 16:28:39 <TheOneLaw> n8 deal breaker
Jan 16 16:28:49 <pahartik> jonwil: If mobile network used on Nokia N900 is unreachable, I can switch to other mobile network right away
Jan 16 16:29:03 <MohammadAG> rcg1, merged
Jan 16 16:29:17 <DocScrutinizer> SpeedEvil: so I like to s/I know/nope/
Jan 16 16:29:32 <testor> hi
Jan 16 16:32:28 <DocScrutinizer> SpeedEvil: LCD BL brightness is clearly controlled by GAIA GPIO6/PWM0 - M4
Jan 16 16:33:12 <MohammadAG> widget.h:7: fatal error: QProximitySensor: No such file or directory
Jan 16 16:33:13 <MohammadAG> compilation terminated.
Jan 16 16:33:25 <MohammadAG> so... when the f will the N8 Qt libs support mobility?
Jan 16 16:33:52 <DocScrutinizer> SpeedEvil: and I bet you can tweak that PWM *a lot* to achieve better low end brightness resolution and minimum
Jan 16 16:34:43 <DocScrutinizer> SpeedEvil: hell, and if not, then use FIQ and do the bitbanging in software
Jan 16 16:35:37 <SpeedEvil> I was reading the kernel source
Jan 16 16:35:44 <SpeedEvil> it did not seem to indicate this was true
Jan 16 16:36:00 <DocScrutinizer> the power savings of LED consumption in lower brightness won't outweigh the CPU hog, but so what - if it makes you feel better with the backlight brightness
Jan 16 16:36:06 <SpeedEvil> But was doing I2C (or was it SPI) to the display
Jan 16 16:36:31 * DocScrutinizer shrugs
Jan 16 16:36:41 <SpeedEvil> I haven't looked at the schematics - will in a bit, thanks
Jan 16 16:36:46 <DocScrutinizer> unless the schematics are lying, it's a feasible way
Jan 16 16:36:57 <jonwil> schematics for what? N900?
Jan 16 16:37:00 <DocScrutinizer> sure
Jan 16 16:39:20 <DocScrutinizer> SpeedEvil: I'm not entirely clear about role and meaning of D1350 and CABC, might me an alternative control path for LCM to also control brightness, which it evidently does, for dynamic BL control (the thing that tries to save BL power my lowering BL and pumping up LCD brightness)
Jan 16 16:39:50 <DocScrutinizer> s/might me/might be/ .
Jan 16 16:41:10 <DocScrutinizer> maybe another hw easter egg - another feature that got designed in but never exploited by sw
Jan 16 16:41:21 <DocScrutinizer> (the PWM GAIA bits)
Jan 16 16:42:51 * MohammadAG still wants those tap interrupts in the accelerometer
Jan 16 16:43:18 * DocScrutinizer hands the baton to the kernel hacker guild
Jan 16 16:44:01 <DocScrutinizer> MohammadAG: fix lis302dl.ko
Jan 16 16:44:24 <MohammadAG> what's broken about it?
Jan 16 16:44:27 <DocScrutinizer> it's simple :-P
Jan 16 16:44:45 <DocScrutinizer> It doesn't support your tap irq afaik
Jan 16 16:45:20 <MohammadAG> that's simple?
Jan 16 16:45:34 <DocScrutinizer> it also doesn't put highpass to proper purpose, to enable IRQs only when *moving* the device
Jan 16 16:46:31 <DocScrutinizer> MohammadAG: actually that's simple. The driver source is really clean and nice, and you just need to augment the missing bits. A straight forward task
Jan 16 16:47:16 <DocScrutinizer> NB this doesn't apply to whomever it is that deals with lis302 sysfs - probably mce :-(
Jan 16 16:47:29 <SpeedEvil> maybe
Jan 16 16:49:30 <MohammadAG> DocScrutinizer, probably, for a kernel hacker :)
Jan 16 16:49:39 <MohammadAG> you can always make another daemon
Jan 16 16:49:53 <DocScrutinizer> MohammadAG: if you're interested we can join efforts
Jan 16 16:50:06 <DocScrutinizer> for the kernel fixing part
Jan 16 16:50:27 <MohammadAG> I don't mind, it's a nice feature to have actually
Jan 16 16:50:41 <MohammadAG> assuming it doesn't rape the battery (which I recall it doesn't)
Jan 16 16:50:41 <DocScrutinizer> fixing lis302, at least for hp, has been on my todo list since long
Jan 16 16:50:46 <MohammadAG> but first, oh goody, http://i55.tinypic.com/23uasgm.jpg
Jan 16 16:51:05 <DocScrutinizer> exams?
Jan 16 16:51:18 <DocScrutinizer> uhh
Jan 16 16:52:19 <MohammadAG> javispedro, you might be interesting in finding what does this <MohammadAG> but first, oh goody, http://i55.tinypic.com/23uasgm.jpg
Jan 16 16:52:41 <jonwil> does having MCE as open source in MeeGo help with understanding what MCE on N900 Maemo is doing?
Jan 16 16:52:46 <MohammadAG> oh and morning :p
Jan 16 16:52:56 <MohammadAG> mce will never be open source
Jan 16 16:53:05 <jonwil> http://meego.gitorious.org/meego-middleware/mce
Jan 16 16:53:10 <jonwil> That looks like code to me
Jan 16 16:53:39 <MohammadAG> hmm
Jan 16 16:53:43 <jonwil> License says LGPL
Jan 16 16:53:46 <MohammadAG> interesting
Jan 16 16:53:56 <MohammadAG> is that the same one?
Jan 16 16:53:59 <MohammadAG> or a rewrite?
Jan 16 16:54:20 <jonwil> well the code says its nokia code
Jan 16 16:54:33 <MohammadAG> RX34 OMG
Jan 16 16:54:42 <DocScrutinizer> jonwil: maybe
Jan 16 16:54:42 <MohammadAG> they open sourced mce?!
Jan 16 16:54:52 <MohammadAG> it's the same one!
Jan 16 16:55:18 * MohammadAG confirms that the N9 is a RM-680
Jan 16 16:55:23 <DocScrutinizer> EEEEK, the world's coming to an end
Jan 16 16:55:32 <MohammadAG> or an RM-696 o_O
Jan 16 16:55:46 <RST38h> Well. Moo.
Jan 16 16:55:50 <MohammadAG> 511 	
Jan 16 16:55:51 <MohammadAG> # Patterns used for the RM-680/RM-690 hardware;
Jan 16 16:55:51 <MohammadAG> 512 	
Jan 16 16:55:51 <MohammadAG> # this hardware has a single-colour LED connected to a Lysti controller
Jan 16 16:55:59 <MohammadAG> bummer, they went back from RGB to one colour
Jan 16 16:56:26 <MohammadAG> well, at least they left the code for the device name, lmao
Jan 16 16:56:30 <RST38h> Bastards, ain't they?
Jan 16 16:56:50 <MohammadAG> hmm
Jan 16 16:56:50 <DocScrutinizer> BLAARRRGH! first file, guess, GUESS! bme-dbus-names.h
Jan 16 16:57:02 <MohammadAG> didn't the internet rumors say the N9 is indeed an RM-680?
Jan 16 16:57:04 <javispedro> MohammadAG: hmm, what is that?
Jan 16 16:57:08 <MohammadAG> and the official mce.ini
Jan 16 16:57:11 <jonwil> So is this mce source code actually of value for the N900 or does it only contain stuff pertaining to the new files?
Jan 16 16:57:19 <MohammadAG> http://meego.gitorious.org/meego-middleware/mce/blobs/master/mce.ini#line509
Jan 16 16:57:21 <RST38h> heya javispedro
Jan 16 16:57:25 <javispedro> morning
Jan 16 16:57:29 <MohammadAG> jonwil, it does seem of value
Jan 16 16:57:30 <MohammadAG> javispedro, some bug
Jan 16 16:57:37 <javispedro> hmm.. hasn't been mce open since long ago? :P
Jan 16 16:57:38 <MohammadAG> triggered by values in transitions.ini
Jan 16 16:57:43 <javispedro> I kinda remember it is plugin based
Jan 16 16:58:14 * RST38h imagines collective scorn from tmo regulars: WHAT? NO COLOR LED?
Jan 16 16:58:26 <javispedro> NO COLOR LED??
Jan 16 16:58:27 <MohammadAG> javispedro, that seems to be the full source
Jan 16 16:58:43 <MohammadAG> nope, N9 is a single LED device :(
Jan 16 16:58:44 <javispedro> MohammadAG: all plugins?
Jan 16 16:58:48 <GAN900> It's a trap!
Jan 16 16:58:54 <MohammadAG> does it matter? mce is open
Jan 16 16:58:58 <MohammadAG> plugins can be closed
Jan 16 16:59:00 * DocScrutinizer feels like slapped in the face about Nokia opensourcing maemo bits for meego, and leaving maemo community behind as if we had a contagious disease
Jan 16 16:59:08 <GAN900> They'll sell you a Bluetooth addon LED.
Jan 16 16:59:15 <javispedro> MohammadAG: one word: dsme.
Jan 16 16:59:21 <GAN900> DocScrutinizer, we do have a disease.
Jan 16 16:59:28 <jonwil> It looks like its usefull for understanding some things but not a direct match for the code running on the N900
Jan 16 16:59:39 * lardman|home just ordered a BT mini kb for £12, quite shocked they are so cheap now
Jan 16 16:59:42 <RST38h> We do have a disease indeed
Jan 16 16:59:47 <MohammadAG> [sbox-FREMANTLE_ARMEL: ~] > apt-get source mce
Jan 16 16:59:48 <MohammadAG> Reading package lists... Done
Jan 16 16:59:49 <MohammadAG> Building dependency tree... Done
Jan 16 16:59:49 <MohammadAG> E: Unable to find a source package for mce
Jan 16 16:59:50 <MohammadAG> ha
Jan 16 17:00:03 <jonwil> i.e. you couldn't use this MCE code to build a drop-in replacement for MCE on the N900
Jan 16 17:00:07 <DocScrutinizer> javispedro: if N9 comes with amoled they thought you don't basically need ANY led
Jan 16 17:00:27 <javispedro> jonwil: you probably could, most of the functionality is hidden in the plugins
Jan 16 17:00:30 <DocScrutinizer> which is arguably reasonable
Jan 16 17:00:36 <javispedro> jonwil: your daemon just needs to be similar enough to load them
Jan 16 17:00:41 <MohammadAG> let's hype the interwebz
Jan 16 17:01:14 <lardman|home> Hmm, more tantalising hints, but still no FCC docs
Jan 16 17:01:22 <SpeedEvil> DocScrutinizer: yeah - I was wondering way back when about illuminating only a tiny corner of a LCD, for powersaving reasons.
Jan 16 17:02:07 <javispedro> makes sense. first they put the led on the front again making it more useless, then they make it a part of the screen itself.
Jan 16 17:02:12 <korhojoa_> SpeedEvil: like the symbian series have the screensaver bar, so a moving screensaver part then?
Jan 16 17:02:16 <eichi> is there maybe a bug in the advanced battery status thing? after 2 hours charging, it says 2 minutes left and nearly empty battery
Jan 16 17:02:23 <RST38h> KBD_SLIDE switch is still there
Jan 16 17:02:25 <MohammadAG> let the hype begin *clicks tweet*
Jan 16 17:02:33 <lardman|home> :)
Jan 16 17:02:39 <MohammadAG> RST38h, so is RX34 :p
Jan 16 17:02:41 <SpeedEvil> korhojoa_: no
Jan 16 17:02:43 <MohammadAG> wasn't that the 770?
Jan 16 17:02:53 <jonwil> Looks like that MCE code includes code for plugins for the brightness stuff
Jan 16 17:02:58 <eichi> okay, now it works, strange
Jan 16 17:02:59 <SpeedEvil> korhojoa_: A hardware backlight that only lights up 1/100th of the screen, in the corner.
Jan 16 17:03:18 <korhojoa_> er. why?
Jan 16 17:03:23 <SpeedEvil> korhojoa_: So you can have a status/... display but not use much power.
Jan 16 17:03:31 <RST38h> Got separate MMC-cover-open switches for two mmcs
Jan 16 17:03:33 <korhojoa_> would that not use a part of the screen more, and wear it out or something?
Jan 16 17:03:35 <lardman|home> MohammadAG: no N800 was RX34 iirc
Jan 16 17:03:52 <SpeedEvil> korhojoa_: no
Jan 16 17:03:54 <MohammadAG> and RX48 is N810?
Jan 16 17:03:57 <SpeedEvil> korhojoa_: doesn't work that way
Jan 16 17:04:03 <DocScrutinizer> jonwil: congrats, good finding
Jan 16 17:04:03 <RST38h> and a separate switch for the battery cover
Jan 16 17:04:16 <MohammadAG> indeed
Jan 16 17:04:20 * MohammadAG cheers for open source mce
Jan 16 17:04:28 <javispedro> oh, there are some plugins there
Jan 16 17:04:38 * MohammadAG sighs at the way they were opened up
Jan 16 17:04:43 <javispedro> hm.. not all of them though.
Jan 16 17:04:48 <MohammadAG> so if MeeGo wants something open, it can get it opened
Jan 16 17:04:49 <jonwil> matching plugin filenames to the n900 filenames, I dont see the accelerometer
Jan 16 17:04:55 <jonwil> and the vibrator
Jan 16 17:04:58 <jonwil> and the home key
Jan 16 17:05:03 <jonwil> the rest has matches
Jan 16 17:05:09 <SpeedEvil> There certainly will be an accel.
Jan 16 17:05:20 <javispedro> a pity cause accel and vibrator is just the two I want.
Jan 16 17:05:21 <korhojoa_> SpeedEvil: doesn't work that way? if you need a hardware backlight, then this means that you're using the screen, and to my knowledge, tft's are still susceptible to 'burn in' or what ever you want to call it
Jan 16 17:05:23 <SpeedEvil> It may well not be the same one.
Jan 16 17:05:48 <jonwil> there are a couple new ones that arent on n900
Jan 16 17:05:55 <jonwil> like a libproximity.so
Jan 16 17:05:55 <SpeedEvil> korhojoa_: they aren't really, in normal conditions, and the little that is possible is easily avoided
Jan 16 17:06:33 <korhojoa_> SpeedEvil: alrighty then
Jan 16 17:07:13 <jonwil> MCE source in that repo claims its version 1.10.88. No idea what version the MCE on my phone is.
Jan 16 17:07:30 <korhojoa_> check with dpkg
Jan 16 17:07:33 <DocScrutinizer> MohammadAG: (accel) input-events I guess
Jan 16 17:07:36 <javispedro> 1.8.something, depending on PR
Jan 16 17:07:43 <MohammadAG> Nokia-N900:~# mce --version
Jan 16 17:07:44 <MohammadAG> mce v1.8.126
Jan 16 17:08:09 <_trine> lardman|gone, which keyboard did you buy
Jan 16 17:08:11 <cehteh> mce source?
Jan 16 17:08:23 * jonwil suggests someone should check that entire meego.gitorious.org to see what other juicy pieces may exist there
Jan 16 17:08:26 <MohammadAG> yes
Jan 16 17:08:30 <cehteh> wohooo
Jan 16 17:08:33 <cehteh> finally
Jan 16 17:08:45 <jonwil> its MCE source for MeeGo, not Maemo
Jan 16 17:08:47 <jonwil> and doesn'
Jan 16 17:08:51 <cehteh> :(
Jan 16 17:08:55 <jonwil> doesn't look like its going to run as-is on an N900
Jan 16 17:08:58 <jonwil> although I cant be sure of that
Jan 16 17:08:59 <wazd> Heya all
Jan 16 17:09:04 <javispedro> hum
Jan 16 17:09:33 <javispedro> there is not a mce bug report.
Jan 16 17:09:41 <javispedro> *relicese request
Jan 16 17:09:44 <javispedro> *relicense request
Jan 16 17:10:12 <lardman|home> hmm, camera_popout_state
Jan 16 17:10:24 <lardman|home>  /* Unlock tklock if camera is popped out */
Jan 16 17:10:30 <lardman|home> that's interesting
Jan 16 17:10:38 <lardman|home> modules/camera.c
Jan 16 17:10:39 <javispedro> isn't that n800
Jan 16 17:10:40 <jonwil> At the very least it would be good to find out if that mce source is usable on a N900 and if the external interfaces between mce and the rest of the system are the same between that version and the N900 one
Jan 16 17:10:42 <MohammadAG> why? :P
Jan 16 17:10:50 <lardman|home> javispedro: may be
Jan 16 17:11:01 <SpeedEvil> It's likely 'popped out' simply means that the slider is open.
Jan 16 17:11:07 <SpeedEvil> Rather than a mechanical pop-out
Jan 16 17:11:09 <lardman|home> ah good point
Jan 16 17:11:12 <cehteh> yes there are at least some clues what, why and how mce does some things we only speculated before
Jan 16 17:11:13 <MohammadAG> well
Jan 16 17:11:17 <MohammadAG> someone has to try eventually
Jan 16 17:11:22 <SpeedEvil> As a mechanical pop-out is basically horribly expensive.
Jan 16 17:11:50 <javispedro> well n800 had one
Jan 16 17:12:13 <lardman|home> have we seen the list of display types in display.c?
Jan 16 17:12:13 * javispedro ponders
Jan 16 17:12:25 <javispedro> meego doesn't use mce, there was no relicense request for mce
Jan 16 17:12:29 <javispedro> so why is this there?
Jan 16 17:12:34 <DocScrutinizer> (pop-out cam) has been used as a synonym for opening cam door, since N800 came with that pop-out cam
Jan 16 17:12:35 <MohammadAG> well
Jan 16 17:12:37 <MohammadAG> good luck
Jan 16 17:12:37 <lardman|home> Haramatten?
Jan 16 17:12:40 <MohammadAG> it need kernel 2.6.32
Jan 16 17:13:02 <MohammadAG> : Scratchbox has unsatisfying version: linux-kernel-headers 2.6.22.2
Jan 16 17:13:12 <javispedro> minor
Jan 16 17:13:14 <javispedro> either way
Jan 16 17:13:50 <DocScrutinizer> ~hail jonwil
Jan 16 17:13:51 * infobot bows down to jonwil and chants, "I'M NOT WORTHY!!"
Jan 16 17:13:55 <javispedro> if we really want mce so badly (tbh I even thought it was open already =) ), maybe a relicense request is now worth it.
Jan 16 17:14:11 <jonwil> yeah I think a licence request would be usefull
Jan 16 17:14:12 <javispedro> as most of the excuses won't be valid.
Jan 16 17:14:22 <DocScrutinizer> YES
Jan 16 17:14:35 <DocScrutinizer> those nasty suckers
Jan 16 17:15:04 <jonwil> I think it would be worth looking in that meego repo for other libs that are now open and that might help with n900/fremantle work
Jan 16 17:15:05 <MohammadAG> javispedro, go for it
Jan 16 17:15:39 <javispedro> jonwil: there are many, for ex meego-multimedia repo
Jan 16 17:15:46 <DocScrutinizer> for maemo we can bang the wall until blood comes, to get some parts opened up, but meego gets all the *maemo* parts it wants, without anybody even dropping a notice here about the fact
Jan 16 17:16:37 <DocScrutinizer> how utterly insulting and impolite
Jan 16 17:16:50 <korhojoa_> The younger child always gets spoilt.
Jan 16 17:16:55 <javispedro> imho so far I don't think any component on the maemo relicensing queue
Jan 16 17:17:01 <javispedro> has been relicensed for meego.
Jan 16 17:17:16 <javispedro> prolly because the stuff on the licensing queue is the important stuff
Jan 16 17:17:37 <jonwil> I suspect bme is still closed source in MeeGo
Jan 16 17:17:42 <javispedro> it is
Jan 16 17:18:43 <javispedro> https://bugs.maemo.org/buglist.cgi?query_format=specific&order=relevance+desc&bug_status=__all__&product=Licensing+Change+Requests&content=
Jan 16 17:18:49 <MohammadAG> it was relicensed though
Jan 16 17:18:52 <jonwil> checking that now
Jan 16 17:18:54 <MohammadAG> as redistributable
Jan 16 17:18:58 <javispedro> "free to distrbute"
Jan 16 17:18:59 <javispedro> yep
Jan 16 17:19:12 <DocScrutinizer> MEH! they could and ought have done this for maemo mce - for example - *long* time ago, WITHOUT us using gold and guns to convince them. They simply could have opened it up, as they did now
Jan 16 17:19:13 <javispedro> before that bme images were in tablets-dev only =)
Jan 16 17:20:27 <MohammadAG> in short
Jan 16 17:20:28 <javispedro> so, who is interested enough in fremantle bme to fill in the bug report? =)
Jan 16 17:20:31 <DocScrutinizer> jobpositively. They decided bme is impossible to open up, for whatever ill reasons
Jan 16 17:20:35 <MohammadAG> MeeGo can get what it want opened
Jan 16 17:20:39 <MohammadAG> which sucks ****s
Jan 16 17:20:40 <DocScrutinizer> jonwil: ^^^
Jan 16 17:20:41 <javispedro> sigh.
Jan 16 17:20:50 <javispedro> Meego doesn't use mce!
Jan 16 17:20:59 <MohammadAG> yet
Jan 16 17:21:02 <javispedro> they even invented their own framework
Jan 16 17:21:16 <MohammadAG> I see
Jan 16 17:21:17 <javispedro> which is a combination of contextkit and something called sensorwhatever
Jan 16 17:21:37 <MohammadAG> so Harmattan will have an open MCE
Jan 16 17:21:37 <DocScrutinizer> javispedro: fremantle bme bug report???
Jan 16 17:21:46 <jonwil> lets file a request for it
Jan 16 17:21:50 <javispedro> DocScrutinizer: yep. there isn't any!
Jan 16 17:21:52 <jonwil> worst Nokia can do is say "no" and we move on
Jan 16 17:22:01 <DocScrutinizer> what bug report?
Jan 16 17:22:08 <javispedro> err..
Jan 16 17:22:13 <javispedro> wait.
Jan 16 17:22:29 <DocScrutinizer> javispedro: bme relicensing requests are legion
Jan 16 17:22:33 <javispedro> DocScrutinizer: https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=9314=bme
Jan 16 17:22:35 <povbot> Bug 9314: Relicense BME
Jan 16 17:22:36 <javispedro> bad url, sorry.
Jan 16 17:22:42 <javispedro> https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=9314
Jan 16 17:22:43 <povbot> Bug 9314: Relicense BME
Jan 16 17:22:55 <jonwil> Nokia have already said "no" to opening BME
Jan 16 17:23:24 <javispedro> I do not think they have, but it's pretty much assumed.
Jan 16 17:23:31 <trx> if they could just partly open it..
Jan 16 17:23:33 <javispedro> They've said no to metatracker, for ex.
Jan 16 17:23:34 <DocScrutinizer> javispedro: sorry, I don't get it. there's 9314, so what bug report to fill now?
Jan 16 17:23:40 <javispedro> DocScrutinizer: for mce!
Jan 16 17:23:51 <javispedro> DocScrutinizer: I confused one letter =)
Jan 16 17:23:55 <DocScrutinizer> MEH, then say "mce" not "bme"
Jan 16 17:24:10 <DocScrutinizer> :-)
Jan 16 17:24:41 <jonwil> so yeah lets ask Nokia to open MCE of n900 plus all plugins that are not sensitive
Jan 16 17:24:46 <javispedro> <javispedro> They've said no to metatracker, for ex. --> metalayer (sorry again)
Jan 16 17:24:59 <Jaffa> javispedro: We don't know, of course, what MeeGo-Harmattan uses (presumably still mce, given what MohammadAG pointed to) or even what Nokia might bolt in to any MeeGo for their OS.
Jan 16 17:25:03 <Jaffa> s/OS/devices/
Jan 16 17:25:03 <infobot> Jaffa meant: javispedro: We don't know, of course, what MeeGo-Harmattan uses (presumably still mce, given what MohammadAG pointed to) or even what Nokia might bolt in to any MeeGo for their devices.
Jan 16 17:25:24 <DocScrutinizer> sensorwhatever==sensorfw, and it's poorly documeted and also a poor concept, it seems
Jan 16 17:25:42 <DocScrutinizer> based largely on polling, which will kill battery life
Jan 16 17:26:11 <jonwil> What nokia does on which platforms or OS releases doesn't really matter to us, what matters to us is that there is code released by Nokia as LGPL for an unknown version of MCE for an unknown hardware platform/OS version
Jan 16 17:26:20 <DocScrutinizer> when I asked in #meego about it, I got the usual answer
Jan 16 17:26:43 <jonwil> and based on this, many arguments against releasing the code to the Fremantle MCE should now be moot
Jan 16 17:26:49 <javispedro> Jaffa: yes, thanks for reminding me of one of the potential pitfalls of meego =)
Jan 16 17:26:51 <mikki-kun> DocScrutinizer: what is the usual answer? "go over to #maemo"?
Jan 16 17:27:23 <MohammadAG> the usual answer for me is wait (which I usually interpret as fuck off :P)
Jan 16 17:27:27 <_trine> DocScrutinizer, do you remeber me asking about pairing 2 blue tooth devices at the same time?  this keyboard seems to be able to do it. :- http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Mini-Wireless-Double-Bluetooth-Pairing-Keyboard-w-Mice-/290523557584?pt=PCA_Mice_Trackballs&hash=item43a48daed0
Jan 16 17:27:30 <DocScrutinizer> mikki-kun: "there's no specs yet. wait. don't bitch. you are free to send patches when we are done with it"
Jan 16 17:27:58 <DocScrutinizer> _trine: nice find
Jan 16 17:28:06 <mikki-kun> wow... so i am not missing a thing :)
Jan 16 17:28:23 <mikki-kun> great community here :)
Jan 16 17:28:24 <GAN900> Nerp
Jan 16 17:28:32 <MohammadAG> ha, so I'm not the only told to wait
Jan 16 17:28:40 <DocScrutinizer> _trine: afaik it depends on BT profile used, if and how many concurrent devices you can pair
Jan 16 17:28:44 <MohammadAG> s/wait/fuck off :p/
Jan 16 17:28:45 <infobot> MohammadAG meant: ha, so I'm not the only told to fuck off :p
Jan 16 17:29:21 <mikki-kun> XD
Jan 16 17:29:53 <DocScrutinizer> MohammadAG: not at all
Jan 16 17:30:03 <DocScrutinizer> MohammadAG: and that SUCKS
Jan 16 17:30:20 <DocScrutinizer> and makes me hate meego at alrge
Jan 16 17:30:29 <DocScrutinizer> large*
Jan 16 17:30:38 <MohammadAG> funny how they ask you to help with MeeGo, when you ask how, you're told to wait
Jan 16 17:30:50 <DocScrutinizer> yes
Jan 16 17:30:57 <DocScrutinizer> npot funny, but yes
Jan 16 17:31:11 * MohammadAG lights a cig for DocScrutinizer 
Jan 16 17:31:16 <javispedro> Jaffa: on the other side it is Nokia itself behind contextkit and sensorfw, so it would be weird behaviour from them.
Jan 16 17:31:31 <javispedro> (but I guess we have come to expect that from Nokia :) )
Jan 16 17:31:54 <MohammadAG> didn't they have OTG swapped in a last minute decision?
Jan 16 17:32:04 <MohammadAG> surely they can swap contextkit and sensorfw with mce :p
Jan 16 17:32:16 * MohammadAG hides
Jan 16 17:32:19 <javispedro> yes, and qt with e18
Jan 16 17:32:41 * DocScrutinizer feels a weird sickness
Jan 16 17:32:42 <javispedro> Where's my Enlightenment phone??
Jan 16 17:32:59 * DocScrutinizer tosses a FR over to javispedro
Jan 16 17:33:17 <DocScrutinizer> with SHR
Jan 16 17:33:41 <MohammadAG> hm, maybe hildon + MeeGo should be HeeGo?
Jan 16 17:34:19 <DocScrutinizer> SheeBlo
Jan 16 17:34:27 <GAN900> MohammadAG, is funny the word? :P
Jan 16 17:35:04 <GAN900> It's unfortunate that the people contributing don't see it with their skewed perspective.
Jan 16 17:36:53 <DocScrutinizer> what's been that quote form yesterday TV? "no kid likes other kids peeing his sandpox"
Jan 16 17:37:14 <DocScrutinizer> extreme form of NIH
Jan 16 17:37:36 <lardman|home> peeing in his sandbox?
Jan 16 17:37:47 <DocScrutinizer> sandbox even
Jan 16 17:37:50 <lardman|home> or perhaps you mean s/sandpox/smallpox
Jan 16 17:37:54 <lardman|home> ;)
Jan 16 17:38:15 <DocScrutinizer> Alzheimer
Jan 16 17:38:20 <lardman|home> :)
Jan 16 17:39:18 <jonwil> so is someone going to file a license change request for the n900 Fremantle MCE?
Jan 16 17:39:33 <SpeedEvil> jonwil: yes, you are.
Jan 16 17:39:39 <DocScrutinizer> javispedro should do this?
Jan 16 17:39:41 <SpeedEvil> jonwil: you're going to do it in 27 minutes.
Jan 16 17:39:42 * MohammadAG sees javispedro raising his hand
Jan 16 17:40:01 * javispedro is not here at the moment, please leave your message after the tone..
Jan 16 17:40:32 <MohammadAG> I have your kids, open a license change request or you'll never see them until the N9 is released
Jan 16 17:40:41 <MohammadAG> (that should translate to never see them again, ever)
Jan 16 17:40:48 <DocScrutinizer> "Dear Master, your people asks for you rising your mighty voice"
Jan 16 17:42:06 * jonwil wonders what other things would be worth having under a "closed but redistributable" license in the way BME is
Jan 16 17:42:08 <DocScrutinizer> s/your/Thy
Jan 16 17:42:25 <DocScrutinizer> s/you/Thou
Jan 16 17:43:26 <BCMM> jonwil: same sorta conditions a "normal" binary linux driver like nvidia or something is under?
Jan 16 17:43:29 <javispedro> jonwil: are you writing it? do you have the template?
Jan 16 17:43:39 <jonwil> I am not writing the bug report
Jan 16 17:43:48 <DocScrutinizer> jonwil: nothing I could think of right atm
Jan 16 17:44:04 <jonwil> wouldnt it be usefull to have the SGX blobs under such a license?
Jan 16 17:44:19 <jonwil> so they can be used in alternative OS's just like BME can now be
Jan 16 17:44:41 <DocScrutinizer> hmm, yes, probably. But there are legal issues with (C) afaik
Jan 16 17:44:58 <DocScrutinizer> a try can't hurt
Jan 16 17:45:19 * javispedro sighs
Jan 16 17:45:21 <javispedro> ok, ok.
Jan 16 17:46:03 <DocScrutinizer> MEH! Nokia, open up THE maemo sources, now that you don't want to continue supporting maemo!
Jan 16 17:46:47 <DocScrutinizer> Differentiation? moot! Quality? moot!
Jan 16 17:47:11 <mrdongle_> yea
Jan 16 17:47:18 <mrdongle_> lawyers - still lawyering
Jan 16 17:47:19 <DocScrutinizer> 3rd party (C)? WTF!!
Jan 16 17:48:32 <jonwil> Getting stuff opened up where the code is in MeeGo and is now open might be fesable. Getting stuff opened up where its still closed in MeeGo wont happen (i.e. BME)
Jan 16 17:48:53 <DocScrutinizer> (h-e-n charging) Status: 0x10 Mode: CHARGING Full: 0 WallCharger: 0 Battery Voltage: 4174 NAC: 2054 Battery level: 100 %
Jan 16 17:49:02 <DocScrutinizer> since 24h now, good enough
Jan 16 17:49:14 <mrdongle_> h-e-n is BME replacement?  what?
Jan 16 17:49:24 <DocScrutinizer> npe, not exactly
Jan 16 17:50:15 <mrdongle_> so.. the battery charging is not managed by firmware but by userspace or kernel software?
Jan 16 17:50:23 <DocScrutinizer> h-e-n is hostmode-easy-now, the USB hostmode project. bme is a sting in our flesh, when it comes to hostmode, so we invented simple replacements just dealing with battery charging
Jan 16 17:51:11 <DocScrutinizer> mrdongle_: battery charging is mainly managed by a dedicated chip called BQ24150, in N900
Jan 16 17:51:30 <DocScrutinizer> this chip basically needs no sw support
Jan 16 17:51:41 <DocScrutinizer> other than configuring it correctly
Jan 16 17:51:52 <DocScrutinizer> and tickling a hw-watchdog
Jan 16 17:51:56 <SpeedEvil> The 'valuable battery related IP' argument is - basically - bullshit.
Jan 16 17:52:19 <DocScrutinizer> completely, stinking BS, a huuuge pile of
Jan 16 17:52:40 <jonwil> I think there is genuine concern about issues with people causing damage to batteries
Jan 16 17:52:41 <SpeedEvil> The safety argument is almost bullshit.
Jan 16 17:53:00 <DocScrutinizer> jonwil: the chip is imanently safe
Jan 16 17:53:01 <SpeedEvil> but that's 99.9% addressible with a sane kernel driver for bq24150
Jan 16 17:53:13 <SpeedEvil> s/safety/reliability/
Jan 16 17:53:33 <jonwil> isnt the situation that Nokia implemented charging algos directly in BME and didnt use the hardware charging algo?
Jan 16 17:53:49 <DocScrutinizer> no evidence for that, on N900
Jan 16 17:53:50 <ShadowJK> You can't really bypass the hw charging algo
Jan 16 17:54:19 <jonwil> ok
Jan 16 17:54:26 <DocScrutinizer> and we damn traced bme actions for hours and days
Jan 16 17:54:53 <jonwil> ok, so what does BME do other than talking to the bq24150?
Jan 16 17:55:40 * Arkenoi remembers GEOS communicator days, pre-symbian. It was Nokia's classic response "why you cannot do this or that" -- "it is not ours, we ordered it from the company that owns GEOS". Actually Nokia could just buy out it completely and it would be cheaper maybe, but they preferred to deal with it that way.
Jan 16 17:55:51 <DocScrutinizer> actually, whenever bme does anything to alter the chip's genuine behaviour, then that's a braindamaged thing we would like to get rid of. Things like keeping charging enabled despite battery cell manufs say you MUST NOT do this
Jan 16 17:56:41 <jonwil> I might go through the list of installed packages on my phone (from /var/lib/dkpg/info), find all the ones that are closed source and then find out which ones are now open source in the MeeGo repos so we can consider filing licence change requests for them. e.g. libiphb0 is now open in MeeGo but closed in Maemo
Jan 16 17:56:42 <ShadowJK> That's an area where software could improve the hardware behaviour, compensate for the charger's inability to distinguish between charge current and system drain
Jan 16 17:57:18 <DocScrutinizer> but bme doesn't
Jan 16 17:57:26 <DocScrutinizer> au contraire
Jan 16 17:57:38 <ShadowJK> It pretty much assumes the system uses 0 power :-)
Jan 16 17:57:43 <DocScrutinizer> yep
Jan 16 17:58:13 <jonwil> how does libbmeipc fit into this?
Jan 16 17:58:53 <ShadowJK> it's a closed undocumented library to query bme about battery state, more or less
Jan 16 17:58:57 <DocScrutinizer> jonwil: that's the problem: bme is doing a shitload of loosely related stuff, like temperature management, charge-level guestimation for HAL, and whatnot else
Jan 16 17:59:20 <DocScrutinizer> jonwil: libbmeips afaik is used only by PA
Jan 16 17:59:29 <DocScrutinizer> probably to playback alarm sounds
Jan 16 18:00:06 <SpeedEvil> jonwil: please do! that would be a really awesome thing to do.
Jan 16 18:00:25 <DocScrutinizer> if THAT is the "valuable battery management IP" then I dunno
Jan 16 18:00:33 * jonwil greps copy of n900 filesystem for bme and libbme related references
Jan 16 18:01:12 <DocScrutinizer> jonwil: yeah, I second SpeedEvil 's notion
Jan 16 18:01:20 <jonwil> yeah I do plan to do that search
Jan 16 18:01:33 <jonwil> to see whats open for MeeGo but not for Fremantle
Jan 16 18:01:55 <jonwil> so we can file license change requests for the interesting bits
Jan 16 18:02:02 <DocScrutinizer> jonwil: (libbmeipc) lsof|grep bme
Jan 16 18:03:05 <jonwil> would filing a lic change for libiphb0 be worth doing?
Jan 16 18:03:16 <DocScrutinizer> aah, of course hald-addon-bme also is using libbmeipc
Jan 16 18:03:51 <DocScrutinizer> what's libiphb0?
Jan 16 18:04:07 <jonwil> not 100% sure but there was a lic change request related to it before IIRC
Jan 16 18:04:38 <javispedro> libiphb IS already opened since long ago
Jan 16 18:04:48 <javispedro> and I'm sure about this one since I saw the request
Jan 16 18:04:51 <jonwil> so even Fremantle has open libiphb?
Jan 16 18:04:59 <javispedro> yep
Jan 16 18:05:03 <jonwil> ok
Jan 16 18:05:04 <javispedro> either way it's a pretty much generic lib
Jan 16 18:05:27 <jonwil> http://maemo.org/packages/view/libiphb0/ says its in nokia-binaries
Jan 16 18:05:31 <jonwil> so for fremantle its not open
Jan 16 18:05:55 <javispedro> repositories will never change
Jan 16 18:06:13 * DocScrutinizer wonders WTF is >>bme_RX-51   727       root    6u   REG       0,11       80       3167 /nosmq
Jan 16 18:06:18 <javispedro> https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=4520
Jan 16 18:06:19 <povbot> Bug 4520: Cannot build libhildondesktop1 on Mer: No source for libiphb0
Jan 16 18:08:24 <DocScrutinizer> anybody give me a clue what a file /nosmq might be?
Jan 16 18:10:06 <jonwil> interesting, the code in the meego repo does not include the hd-heartbeat.c mentioned in the bug
Jan 16 18:10:16 <javispedro> "hd" means hildon-desktop
Jan 16 18:10:23 <javispedro> so if anything it would be in hildon deskto
Jan 16 18:10:23 <javispedro> p
Jan 16 18:10:53 <jonwil> oh yeah hd-heartbeat.c is not what was closed
Jan 16 18:10:59 <jonwil> hd-heartbeat.c is what was #including closed .h files
Jan 16 18:11:16 <DocScrutinizer> hd-heartbeat sounds like HD talking to dsme to tickle a wd-timer
Jan 16 18:11:32 <RST38h> yep
Jan 16 18:11:41 <javispedro> nope
Jan 16 18:11:49 <javispedro> iphb is a library for merging timers
Jan 16 18:11:53 <RST38h> or more likely, hd talking to whatever to prevent its restart
Jan 16 18:12:00 <javispedro> there's a word for this but sadly I don't know it
Jan 16 18:12:09 <DocScrutinizer> I think bme and mce are doing similar things
Jan 16 18:12:12 <javispedro> if two applications request 30 second timers
Jan 16 18:12:20 <javispedro> iphb will try to merge them into one single wakeup
Jan 16 18:12:24 <javispedro> to avoid cpu wakeups
Jan 16 18:12:36 <jonwil> I count 95 files that link to libbmeipc
Jan 16 18:13:00 <DocScrutinizer> wow
Jan 16 18:13:09 <javispedro> jonwil: too many
Jan 16 18:13:14 <jonwil> we have /usr/bin/testserver, whatever that is
Jan 16 18:13:14 <javispedro> are you sure?
Jan 16 18:13:18 <javispedro> there's only like three packages
Jan 16 18:13:46 <jonwil> libthermalobject_surface.so
Jan 16 18:13:54 <jonwil> in dsme
Jan 16 18:13:59 <DocScrutinizer> :nod:
Jan 16 18:14:09 <DocScrutinizer> the thermal mgmt shit
Jan 16 18:15:12 <jonwil> hald-addon-bme talks to it
Jan 16 18:16:06 <jonwil> pulseaudio has libnokia-common talking to it
Jan 16 18:16:07 <DocScrutinizer> as mentioned above
Jan 16 18:16:27 <jonwil> module-nokia-music, module-nokia-record and module-nokia-voice
Jan 16 18:16:58 <DocScrutinizer> pulseaudi   792      pulse  mem    REG      254,1     8312      26120 /usr/lib/libbmeipc.so.0
Jan 16 18:16:59 <DocScrutinizer> hald-addo   887       root  mem    REG      254,1     8312      26120 /usr/lib/libbmeipc.so.0
Jan 16 18:17:02 <jonwil> a LOT of libs in /usr/lib/testserver talk to it
Jan 16 18:17:35 <DocScrutinizer> whatever that testserver might be
Jan 16 18:18:02 <jonwil> "This test server provides tests for production line and maintenance tests. It receives PhoNet messages through UART or USB and runs required tests using kernel drivers and responds to the messages."
Jan 16 18:18:33 <jonwil> sounds like it exists so nokia service people can talk to it with some other software and test phone hardware at low level for faults
Jan 16 18:21:11 <DocScrutinizer> anyway, mce closed has always been a major PITA as you can't even do silly simple things like tweak the way the system deals with kbd backlight
Jan 16 18:22:04 <jonwil> so yeah someone should file a lic change request for fremantle MCE then
Jan 16 18:23:15 <jonwil> btw, the thermalobject thing is open source. Although it looks like we dont have the bme\* include files required to compile it
Jan 16 18:24:04 <jonwil> maybe we should ask for libbmeipc0-dev package :P
Jan 16 18:25:41 <alterego> Oh wow
Jan 16 18:25:47 <jonwil> oh wow what?
Jan 16 18:28:11 <alterego> DocScrutinizer: http://pastie.org/1467388
Jan 16 18:28:21 <alterego> See that interface: "org.ofono.CellBroadcast" ;)
Jan 16 18:29:12 <jonwil> So its possible to get CBSMS to work on the N900 without the need to make risky mods to the cell-modem firmware?
Jan 16 18:29:32 <alterego> jonwil: this is MEeGo, not Maemo
Jan 16 18:29:44 <jonwil> its still n900 and still the same cell firmware AFAIK
Jan 16 18:29:45 <alterego> That was from meego, not maemo should I say.
Jan 16 18:29:53 <alterego> Yeah, sure.
Jan 16 18:30:00 <DocScrutinizer> alterego: oh wow
Jan 16 18:30:45 <lardman|home> what's a cell broadcast?
Jan 16 18:30:57 <DocScrutinizer> SMS for the masses
Jan 16 18:30:59 <alterego> lardman|home: usually contains information like your post code.
Jan 16 18:31:16 <lardman|home> and is sent to whom?
Jan 16 18:31:21 <alterego> Everyone
Jan 16 18:31:26 <jonwil> its sent by the tower to everyone in range
Jan 16 18:31:27 <lardman|home> why?
Jan 16 18:31:29 <SpeedEvil> Not in the UK.
Jan 16 18:31:31 <lardman|home> oh I see
Jan 16 18:31:35 <alterego> SpeedEvil: it is in the UK
Jan 16 18:31:39 <jonwil> Its usually used for a tower identity
Jan 16 18:31:42 <alterego> SpeedEvil: I've used it loads, though not all operators.
Jan 16 18:31:44 <DocScrutinizer> there are like 999 channels you can register with, and info sent is location specific - sometimes
Jan 16 18:31:52 <lardman|home> ok
Jan 16 18:32:01 <SpeedEvil> alterego: well - not int he operators I've looked at anyway witht he phone that supported
Jan 16 18:32:01 <jacekowski> jonwil: risky mods to cell-modem?
Jan 16 18:32:13 <jacekowski> jonwil: as in what sort of risk?
Jan 16 18:32:23 <jonwil> I just remember someone saying before that CBSMS on n900 was not possible due to cell modem firmware not supporting it
Jan 16 18:32:43 <jonwil> and I know that modifications to cell-modem firmware is usually risky or dangerous (it is on other phones)
Jan 16 18:32:45 <jonwil> hence my comment
Jan 16 18:32:49 <DocScrutinizer> German (and other?) O2 carrier sends Gauss-Wegener coords of BTS on CBC:221
Jan 16 18:32:52 <jacekowski> well, its' not on n900
Jan 16 18:33:00 <jacekowski> you can mod it
Jan 16 18:33:01 <jacekowski> flash it
Jan 16 18:33:11 <jacekowski> and in worst case scenario you will have to flash it back to stock firmware
Jan 16 18:33:19 <Venemo_N900> if you start a video from the file manager and ctrl+backspace from the media player before the video starts, it will play the video in the background
Jan 16 18:34:10 <DocScrutinizer> jacekowski: wasn't cellmo FW checksum-signed or sth?
Jan 16 18:34:56 <jacekowski> it is
Jan 16 18:35:00 <jacekowski> but even if you break it
Jan 16 18:35:04 <jacekowski> you can still flash it
Jan 16 18:35:20 <DocScrutinizer> ...but it won't work? :-P
Jan 16 18:35:53 <jonwil> hmmm, I dont know how CBSMS works or how SMS works on the N900 but maybe its possible to study MeeGo code for CBSMS and write something for maemo (kernel driver e.g.) that can grab the CBSMS away from the telephony stack and do stuff with it.
Jan 16 18:36:08 * jonwil makes note to study cbsms code for meego in detail
Jan 16 18:36:24 <jonwil> worst case scenario is that its not possible without replacing SMS or telephony stack
Jan 16 18:36:27 <DocScrutinizer> there's CBSMS code for meego? o.O
Jan 16 18:36:46 <javispedro> well
Jan 16 18:36:52 <jonwil> http://pastie.org/1467388 seems to imply there is
Jan 16 18:37:00 <javispedro> ofono is basically what the n900 uses but evolved and gpl'd
Jan 16 18:37:14 <MohammadAG> hmm
Jan 16 18:37:22 <javispedro> evolded=modularized, cleaned, etc.
Jan 16 18:37:24 <MohammadAG> I can mix C and C++ without using wrappers right?
Jan 16 18:37:42 <DocScrutinizer> yes
Jan 16 18:37:46 <ShadowJK> if you're lucky
Jan 16 18:37:52 <jonwil> if a way can be found to suppor t
Jan 16 18:37:56 <jonwil> support CBSMS on fremantle
Jan 16 18:38:03 <ShadowJK> there are some incompatible differences
Jan 16 18:38:11 <jonwil> without the need to replace the entire connectivity stack and all apps then
Jan 16 18:38:13 <jonwil> that would be a good thing
Jan 16 18:38:28 <DocScrutinizer> for sure
Jan 16 18:38:37 <alterego> someone got ofono working on maemo aswell.
Jan 16 18:38:45 <Venemo_N900> MohammadAG: yes, because c++ is a superset of c
Jan 16 18:38:49 <alterego> So it's conceivable to replace what maemo uses with ofono and a new dialer etc.
Jan 16 18:39:32 <DocScrutinizer> well, ofono is using phonet, no? and it's foss
Jan 16 18:39:48 <alterego> Yes
Jan 16 18:39:48 <jonwil> it would be even better if its possible to support cbsms without the need to replace dialer and sms app and stuff
Jan 16 18:40:07 <alterego> Possibly ..
Jan 16 18:40:13 <alterego> If it's possible, which is unlikely imo
Jan 16 18:40:18 <Venemo_N900> alterego: meego uses ofono too, isn't it?
Jan 16 18:40:19 <jonwil> I have made a note to study cbsms in ofono and meego
Jan 16 18:40:22 <jonwil> and see how it works
Jan 16 18:40:24 <DocScrutinizer> and iirc phonet is available even via tethering - se cdc_phonet
Jan 16 18:40:28 <DocScrutinizer> see*
Jan 16 18:40:28 <alterego> Venemo_N900: indeed
Jan 16 18:40:48 <MohammadAG> out with the dialer! muhahaha
Jan 16 18:41:04 <Venemo_N900> alterego: reminds me, can I make phone calls with the earpiece on meego yet?
Jan 16 18:41:18 <MohammadAG> Venemo_N900, but the code will be messed up right?
Jan 16 18:41:18 <ShadowJK> C: int* foo; foo = malloc(sizeof(int));  C++: int *foo: foo = (int*) malloc(sizeof(int));, in C void* can be assigned to any pointer type, in C++ you need to cast
Jan 16 18:41:21 <MohammadAG> alterego, not afaik
Jan 16 18:41:35 * DocScrutinizer feels like mentioning that this string in ofono reply doesn't guarantee phonet really supports CBSMS
Jan 16 18:41:35 <ShadowJK> This makes some C not compile as C++ :)
Jan 16 18:41:53 <jonwil> well I will be looking into just what it does anyway
Jan 16 18:41:56 <Venemo_N900> MohammadAG: not necessarily. if you care about clean code then it won't be messed up
Jan 16 18:41:59 <DocScrutinizer> neither the cellmo FW
Jan 16 18:42:11 <jonwil> it may be that it sujpports CBSMS on some future hardware we dont have yet
Jan 16 18:42:12 <alterego> Venemo_N900: not yet no :)
Jan 16 18:42:16 <ShadowJK> and of course, if someone writes: int new=0; new++; which is valid C, it'll fail to compile as C++
Jan 16 18:42:27 <Venemo_N900> ShadowJK: some c compilers also require you to cast from void*
Jan 16 18:42:27 <jonwil> but not on the n900
Jan 16 18:42:41 <Venemo_N900> alterego: seriously, how hard is it to implement?
Jan 16 18:42:58 <ShadowJK> Venemo_N900, which?
Jan 16 18:43:07 <alterego> Venemo_N900: probably more than you think, it's entire pulseaudio routing policies.
Jan 16 18:43:35 <Venemo_N900> ShadowJK: maybe visual c does, I'm not sure
Jan 16 18:43:40 <alterego> So it's not just about calls, it's about media playback, has to handle live diversion from loudspeaker to earpeice, headset, handle headset controls.
Jan 16 18:43:48 <ShadowJK> msvc isn't a c compiler :)
Jan 16 18:43:50 <alterego> I'm sure it's that that trivial, and it'll be ready soon enough :P
Jan 16 18:43:58 <Venemo_N900> ShadowJK: oh, it has one
Jan 16 18:44:09 <ShadowJK> It fails on many valid C things
Jan 16 18:44:18 <javispedro> alterego: it is trivial, but I guess they're trying to do it properly (using pulseaudio profiles for ex.) instead of the nokia way
Jan 16 18:44:18 <Venemo_N900> ShadowJK: it is even stricter than gnu's sometimes
Jan 16 18:44:23 <jonwil> btw I seem to have a habit of comming into communities and doing cool stuff (like finding MCE code).
Jan 16 18:44:38 <ShadowJK> Venemo_N900, it's "stricter" than the C standard in some cases
Jan 16 18:44:44 <Venemo_N900> jonwil: mce code?
Jan 16 18:44:57 <ShadowJK> meaning it's really following C++ instead of C in some cases
Jan 16 18:45:02 <Venemo_N900> ShadowJK: I think it uses an older standard.
Jan 16 18:45:06 <jonwil> I found a source tree for MCE in the meego repos
Jan 16 18:45:28 <ShadowJK> Well yeah, its outdatedness is also a problem :)
Jan 16 18:45:31 <jonwil> http://meego.gitorious.org/meego-middleware/mce
Jan 16 18:45:41 <jonwil> Its not the same as the one on the N900
Jan 16 18:45:42 <Venemo_N900> ShadowJK: for example, it only allows declarations at the beginning of blocks, etc.
Jan 16 18:45:46 <alterego> I don't think meego uses mce :P
Jan 16 18:45:58 <jonwil> doesnt matter what meego is using
Jan 16 18:45:59 <DocScrutinizer> jonwil: you'd need to find out how to CBSMS in phonet API, either by scrutinizing ofono src or by reading phonet specs, and then see if BB5 RAPUYAMA modem in N900 plays nice when throwing these commands at it, or possibly throws an error
Jan 16 18:46:03 <javispedro> alterego: that was my point a few hours above =)
Jan 16 18:46:08 <Venemo_N900> alterego: seems that it has one now
Jan 16 18:46:17 <alterego> No, probably old redundant.
Jan 16 18:46:25 <javispedro> yeah.
Jan 16 18:46:30 <jonwil> but yeah what matters is that MCE code is now open
Jan 16 18:46:32 <alterego> Maybe related to Harmatten device.
Jan 16 18:46:48 <jonwil> so filing license change request for fremantle MCE means many arguments about why not to open it go away
Jan 16 18:46:51 <Venemo_N900> alterego: maybe ask someone who knows for sure?
Jan 16 18:47:02 <alterego> tbh, I'm not interested.
Jan 16 18:47:04 <Venemo_N900> alterego: the usually don't make harmattan components oss
Jan 16 18:47:13 <alterego> We don't use MCE in the N900 adaptation, that I'm sure of
Jan 16 18:47:16 <DocScrutinizer> jonwil: pnatd, on issueing the related AT cmds, replies ERROR
Jan 16 18:47:42 <jonwil> is pnatd on fremantle or meego in this case?
Jan 16 18:48:00 <SpeedEvil> DocScrutinizer: Is pnatd a more cooked interface than is used by the phone/... stack?
Jan 16 18:48:00 <DocScrutinizer> jonwil: this means either it's not implemented in pnatd, or cellmo doesn't support it
Jan 16 18:48:02 <alterego> pnatd is maemo, meego doesn't have anything like that.
Jan 16 18:48:08 <Venemo_N900> alterego: does sts know something about it?
Jan 16 18:48:15 <alterego> Ask him :P
Jan 16 18:48:17 <SpeedEvil> DocScrutinizer: I note - IIRC - it also doesn't support dialing.
Jan 16 18:48:28 <javispedro> pnatd??'
Jan 16 18:48:32 <javispedro> pnatd does, it even launches the UI
Jan 16 18:48:37 <DocScrutinizer> SpeedEvil: aiui it's a nobrainer AT translator to libisi
Jan 16 18:48:56 <jonwil> DocScrutinizer, what are the AT commands in question?
Jan 16 18:49:04 <Venemo_N900> alterego: atm I don't really care :P
Jan 16 18:49:04 <DocScrutinizer> javispedro: UI for CBSMS?
Jan 16 18:49:12 <javispedro> DocScrutinizer: no, plain voice dialong.
Jan 16 18:49:15 <javispedro> *dialing
Jan 16 18:49:27 <DocScrutinizer> javispedro: that's not been the topic
Jan 16 18:49:30 <alterego> Probably AT+CGDCONT
Jan 16 18:49:59 <DocScrutinizer> jonwil: sorry, I forgot.
Jan 16 18:50:05 <javispedro> (i was talking about dialing =) )
Jan 16 18:50:45 <jonwil> how do I use pnatd?
Jan 16 18:50:52 <MohammadAG> hmm
Jan 16 18:50:56 <MohammadAG> I'll go with a wrapper
Jan 16 18:51:09 <MohammadAG> noobish question, what's the difference between void and static void?
Jan 16 18:51:32 <Venemo_N900> MohammadAG: static functions can only be called from that file
Jan 16 18:51:43 <MohammadAG> like private?
Jan 16 18:51:50 <javispedro> MohammadAG: static has many meanings in C
Jan 16 18:51:56 <javispedro> depends on context, unfortunately.
Jan 16 18:52:20 <MohammadAG> static void onRendererAdded(MafwRegistry* mafw_registry, GObject* renderer, gpointer user_data);
Jan 16 18:52:21 <MohammadAG> for one
Jan 16 18:52:23 <Venemo_N900> MohammadAG: except static member functions (methods) of a class which mean that the method is related to the class, but not to any particular instance
Jan 16 18:52:54 <Venemo_N900> MohammadAG: a static method declared in a c file means that that method can only be called from that file
Jan 16 18:53:34 <jonwil> hmmm, damn, AT+CLAC isnt supported by whatever pnatd uses
Jan 16 18:53:46 <alterego> pnatd doesn't use anything
Jan 16 18:53:52 <jonwil> I mean by whatever it talks to
Jan 16 18:53:54 <alterego> it literally just translates a minimal AT command set.
Jan 16 18:53:59 <alterego> No, you don't :P
Jan 16 18:54:10 <jonwil> ok, my mistake
Jan 16 18:54:14 <jonwil> pnatd doesnt do what I thought it did
Jan 16 18:54:16 <mrdongle_> ty for info DocScrutinizer
Jan 16 18:54:28 <jonwil> It doesnt work like the AT command daemon on other phones I know that sends AT commands to the baseband
Jan 16 18:54:30 <Venemo_N900> MohammadAG: there are other meanings of the static keyword of course, depending on context
Jan 16 18:54:54 <alterego> jonwil: yeah, quite a few phones work like that, but we talk to the Nokia baseband using phonet :P
Jan 16 18:55:04 <javispedro> jonwil: http://lwn.net/Articles/303274/
Jan 16 18:55:05 <DocScrutinizer> AT+CSCB... ?
Jan 16 18:56:05 <DocScrutinizer> jonwil: that's the point
Jan 16 18:56:24 <DocScrutinizer> BB5 is using some binary interface and phonet, aiui
Jan 16 18:56:58 <DocScrutinizer> meh, alterego was faster
Jan 16 18:57:26 <jonwil> so is someone going to file a license change request for fremantle MCE or not?
Jan 16 18:57:43 <MohammadAG> Venemo_N900, thanks
Jan 16 18:57:43 <javispedro> i'm trying to think
Jan 16 18:58:28 <Venemo_N900> jonwil: someone tried afaik, but I can't recall the details
Jan 16 18:58:35 <DocScrutinizer> javispedro: \o/ thanks mate :-)
Jan 16 18:58:37 <javispedro> asking about a relicense at this point is stupid, as the answer is "it already is"
Jan 16 18:58:42 <javispedro> however
Jan 16 18:58:51 <javispedro> asking for the missing plugins that were in fremantle isn't.
Jan 16 18:59:20 <jonwil> well what we would be asking for is that source matching fremantle be released (or rather source that is compatible with all the closed bits in fremantle that talk to MCE and its plugins)
Jan 16 18:59:35 <DocScrutinizer> javispedro: we'd like to get 1.8 rather than 1.11 though, for mce
Jan 16 18:59:40 <javispedro> imo it probably already is
Jan 16 19:00:00 <jonwil> which of these drivers http://meego.gitorious.org/meego-cellular/ofono/trees/master/drivers matches the n900?
Jan 16 19:00:07 <javispedro> isi
Jan 16 19:00:08 <jonwil> I think its the isimodem
Jan 16 19:00:10 <jonwil> ok
Jan 16 19:00:14 <jonwil> thats what I thought
Jan 16 19:00:20 <DocScrutinizer> libisi
Jan 16 19:00:28 <DocScrutinizer> is what's used in N900
Jan 16 19:00:54 <DocScrutinizer> aiui libisi is an interface to phonet
Jan 16 19:01:39 <Venemo_N900> jonwil: btw what are we hoping to achieve with all this?
Jan 16 19:02:19 <mrdongle_> immortality
Jan 16 19:02:24 <jonwil> with ofono examination, the aim is to see if there is any way to get cbsms working on n900
Jan 16 19:02:52 <jonwil> ofono supports cbsms, ergo we need to see if whatever device-specific bits that cbsms support uses exist in the n900 device specific code
Jan 16 19:03:22 <luke-jr> jonwil: why bother with license change requests?
Jan 16 19:03:29 <luke-jr> jonwil: they'll just be ignored
Jan 16 19:03:39 <Venemo_N900> jonwil: what is cbsms?
Jan 16 19:03:48 <jonwil> cbsms is broadcast SMS
Jan 16 19:03:51 <javispedro> luke-jr: rather, everything that is not on the queue will be opened =9
Jan 16 19:04:04 <Venemo_N900> jonwil: never heard of them, sorry
Jan 16 19:04:05 <javispedro> luke-jr: the stuff on the queue, being the important stuff, will never be.
Jan 16 19:04:15 <jonwil> its used e.g. to send out a name or location for a cell tower
Jan 16 19:04:18 * javispedro finds that funny.
Jan 16 19:05:22 <jonwil> worst that can happen if we file a license change request for fremantle MCE is that we get nothing and we use the MCE from the MeeGo repo as a source of info and code
Jan 16 19:05:32 <trumee> is it possible to find out which operator has the best signal inside the house without buying their sim?
Jan 16 19:05:51 <luke-jr> trumee: I asked the same a while ago
Jan 16 19:06:05 <trumee> luke-jr, and?
Jan 16 19:06:13 <luke-jr> never got an answer
Jan 16 19:07:08 <trumee> will this cbsms thing help this?
Jan 16 19:07:15 <luke-jr> doubt it
Jan 16 19:08:51 <jonwil> ok, isimodem\cbs.c exists and has code
Jan 16 19:09:20 <DocScrutinizer> now that sounds promising
Jan 16 19:10:49 <DocScrutinizer> trumee: luke-jr: sure. When scanning for available networks, you should, in theory, get a list of *all* BTS in vicinity, together with signal strength
Jan 16 19:11:20 <luke-jr> DocScrutinizer: if you want to wait 10 minutes at each extreme of your house sure
Jan 16 19:11:31 <luke-jr> and even then you don't get signal strength, just "is it there"?
Jan 16 19:11:35 <DocScrutinizer> luke-jr: got a better idea?
Jan 16 19:11:46 <luke-jr> DocScrutinizer: something like kismet would be nice
Jan 16 19:12:15 * DocScrutinizer suggests buying a Rhode&Schwartz GSM analyzer - only 80k$
Jan 16 19:13:12 <DocScrutinizer> luke-jr: unlike kismet, for GSM you got some 1600 channels to scan
Jan 16 19:13:24 <luke-jr> yeah, $80k for something N900 should be able to do
Jan 16 19:13:43 <luke-jr> 1600 channels, really?
Jan 16 19:13:46 <jonwil> I remember many years ago when I used to work for Motorola (back in the days when the RAZR was king) they had that kind of fancy gear in the lab
Jan 16 19:13:54 <DocScrutinizer> luke-jr: N900 *is* able to do that. Just not as fast as you think it should be
Jan 16 19:14:25 <luke-jr> pretty sure nobody else's phones take 10 minutes to find service
Jan 16 19:14:32 <DocScrutinizer> luke-jr: it's called "show available networks"
Jan 16 19:15:19 <DocScrutinizer> pretty sure every phone takes that long to find networks, in an unknown poor signal level environment
Jan 16 19:15:53 <DocScrutinizer> anyway, seeya folks
Jan 16 19:18:47 <DocScrutinizer> luke-jr: ps: usually phones store channel and MNC of recently used BTS to SIM. So they get a connection rather fast on bootup. Given the location didn't change during downtime
Jan 16 19:19:29 <jonwil> I get the feeling that reverse engineering some headers for libisi will be required to get cbsms working without replacing everything related to telephony. But hey, I like a challenge :)
Jan 16 19:19:42 <luke-jr> DocScrutinizer: well, it could at least show signal strengths
Jan 16 19:20:04 <DocScrutinizer51> ack
Jan 16 19:20:12 <javispedro> jonwil: why? the isi protocol is pretty much understood
Jan 16 19:20:39 <jonwil> oh ok if we know how to talk isi then it should just be a matter of writing something that sends the right stuff to the cellmodem
Jan 16 19:20:45 <jonwil> using the ofono source as a base
Jan 16 19:20:51 <jonwil> so we write e.g. libcbsms
Jan 16 19:21:05 <MohammadAG> thp ping
Jan 16 19:21:15 <SpeedEvil> DocScrutinizer: what I meant is that atd - does not work. So pnatd is doing something.
Jan 16 19:21:16 <DocScrutinizer> jonwil: isn't that exactly what I suggested some lines up? :-D
Jan 16 19:21:37 <jonwil> didnt see it
Jan 16 19:21:51 <vi_> hi
Jan 16 19:21:57 <MohammadAG> UI suggestions? http://i54.tinypic.com/8zjijd.jpg
Jan 16 19:22:32 <DocScrutinizer> [2011-01-16 19:40:58] <DocScrutinizer> jonwil: you'd need to find out how to CBSMS in phonet API, either by scrutinizing ofono src or by reading phonet specs, and then see if BB5 RAPUYAMA modem in N900 plays nice when throwing these commands at it, or possibly throws an error
Jan 16 19:22:48 <vi_> can somone tell me wtf the process 'bridge_work-que' is and why it is keeping my cpu awake all the time?
Jan 16 19:23:35 <vi_> seriously, it is running all the time
Jan 16 19:23:56 <korhojoa_> http://www.engadget.com/2011/01/15/man-discovers-glasses-free-3d-tech-in-the-blink-of-an-eye-video/ when do we get this on our n900's ?
Jan 16 19:23:58 <vi_> and destroying my battery life
Jan 16 19:24:05 <DocScrutinizer> where phonet API == libisi AIUI
Jan 16 19:24:58 <trumee> DocScrutinizer, so is there any way to show signal strengths in xterm?
Jan 16 19:25:16 <jonwil> heh, the fact that its 3am here doesn't help when it comes to following conversations :P
Jan 16 19:25:17 <DocScrutinizer> sure
Jan 16 19:25:26 <vi_> yes
Jan 16 19:25:32 <DocScrutinizer> dbus-monitor|grep signal
Jan 16 19:25:35 <jonwil> should probably go to bed and read ofono code some more tommorow
Jan 16 19:25:42 <DocScrutinizer> sth along that line
Jan 16 19:26:08 <vi_> so bridge_work-que wtf is that?
Jan 16 19:26:16 <trumee> DocScrutinizer, for all the networks?
Jan 16 19:26:17 <jonwil> cya
Jan 16 19:26:35 <vi_> for gsm radio
Jan 16 19:26:44 <vi_> use iwconfig to see wifi
Jan 16 19:26:54 <Venemo_N900> MohammadAG: ui suggestions for what?
Jan 16 19:26:56 <DocScrutinizer51> for servicing BTS aka your home tower
Jan 16 19:27:12 <MohammadAG> Venemo_N900, the screenshot
Jan 16 19:27:21 <Venemo_N900> MohammadAG: which?
Jan 16 19:27:48 <luke-jr> interesting fact: all Tonal/hexadecimal numbers ending in nolls/zeros always end in 6 when converted to decimal
Jan 16 19:27:58 <MohammadAG> <MohammadAG> UI suggestions? http://i54.tinypic.com/8zjijd.jpg
Jan 16 19:28:02 <luke-jr> and the tens place, is a pattern of 1 5 9 3 7, repeate
Jan 16 19:28:21 <vi_> no shit base 10 base 16
Jan 16 19:28:51 <javispedro> it is hard for me to find justification for mce
Jan 16 19:28:53 <korhojoa_> MohammadAG: well keep it consistent, are there other options than pal and ntsc?
Jan 16 19:29:06 <luke-jr> vi_: cmon, at least  the tens place pattern is interesting?
Jan 16 19:29:12 <luke-jr> korhojoa_: HD?
Jan 16 19:29:20 <DocScrutinizer51> luke-jr: ehh? 0x20 = 32
Jan 16 19:29:30 <korhojoa_> luke-jr: for video out on the n900?
Jan 16 19:29:38 <Venemo_N900> MohammadAG: I'd use a value button for the aspect ratio
Jan 16 19:29:39 <luke-jr> DocScrutinizer51: I mean like 10, 100, 1000, 10000, 100000
Jan 16 19:29:44 <Venemo_N900> MohammadAG: but it looks okay
Jan 16 19:29:59 <luke-jr> korhojoa_: oh.
Jan 16 19:30:01 <MohammadAG> korhojoa_, it started as a clone
Jan 16 19:30:21 <MohammadAG> Venemo_N900, I was thinking of actually switching to ratio buttons
Jan 16 19:30:24 <korhojoa_> okay. well, just choose either type and stick with it :D
Jan 16 19:30:25 <vi_> seriously does any one know wtf bridge_work-que process is????????
Jan 16 19:30:32 <Venemo_N900> MohammadAG: okay then
Jan 16 19:30:40 <Venemo_N900> MohammadAG: but be consistent.
Jan 16 19:31:13 <korhojoa_> vi_: what firmware are you on?
Jan 16 19:31:54 <vi_> pr1.3
Jan 16 19:31:55 <pahartik> trumee: For Bluetooth, "hcitool rssi <bdaddr>"
Jan 16 19:32:12 <korhojoa_> vi_: did you bother doing a search?
Jan 16 19:32:24 <korhojoa_> vi_: this took me less than three seconds http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=51040
Jan 16 19:32:27 <DocScrutinizer51> luke-jr: that's pretty trivial, as 6*6=36. Same works for base15 as 5*5=25
Jan 16 19:33:23 <luke-jr> DocScrutinizer51: including the tens pattern?
Jan 16 19:33:34 <alterego> The ofono API for CBSMS looks neat: http://meego.gitorious.org/meego-cellular/ofono/blobs/d9a275c52ed846071a00a610b9a0d5ae6c238c14/doc/cell-broadcast-api.txt
Jan 16 19:33:39 <luke-jr> actually, 5*… seems to always be 25 :P
Jan 16 19:33:59 <trx> how can i invoke "select connection" dialog? i am trying to use libconic but it just creates a connection without "select connection" dialog :/
Jan 16 19:34:02 <luke-jr> 6*… is 3 1 9 7 5
Jan 16 19:37:34 <MohammadAG> what's the opposite of widescreen again? :P
Jan 16 19:37:44 <javispedro> portrait
Jan 16 19:38:03 <MohammadAG> err, that's not 4:3 :p
Jan 16 19:38:07 <trx> the "not wide screen" :)
Jan 16 19:38:07 <javispedro> MohammadAG: DocScrutinizer51: jonwil: bug #11794
Jan 16 19:38:09 <povbot> Bug https://bugs.maemo.org/11794 Open Fremantle's MCE
Jan 16 19:38:34 <korhojoa_> Thinscreen, obviously
Jan 16 19:38:49 <MohammadAG> did you fuck up and link to bme? :)
Jan 16 19:39:03 <javispedro> It had to happen.
Jan 16 19:39:13 <javispedro> doesn't matter, classification is right
Jan 16 19:39:28 <javispedro> (bme is L6)
Jan 16 19:39:35 <javispedro> (while I correctly stated that mce is L7)
Jan 16 19:40:29 <vi_> yeah i saw that thread, completly irrelevant.  I dont have any media files
Jan 16 19:40:34 <thp> MohammadAG: pong
Jan 16 19:41:09 <Jaffa> MohammadAG: There's not really a term for "not widescreen", unless you get into the technical 12F9 etc.
Jan 16 19:41:09 <javispedro> MohammadAG: feel free to add anything to it.
Jan 16 19:43:03 <SpeedEvil> 4:#
Jan 16 19:43:05 <SpeedEvil> 4:3
Jan 16 19:43:19 <korhojoa_> what's that, some new smiley?
Jan 16 19:43:25 <korhojoa_> cat with a hat?
Jan 16 19:43:29 <trx> lol
Jan 16 19:43:36 <korhojoa_> I know this one's a lion >:3
Jan 16 19:44:50 <Jaffa> MohammadAG: Terms you might be thinking of: "SD" (in US, because widescreen came along with HD). "4:3", "letterbox" (for showing widescreen content in a 4:3 frame, also "16L12"), "12F12" (i.e. 12:9 image in a 12:9 frame)
Jan 16 19:44:51 <kerio> JESUS CHRIST GET IN THE CAR
Jan 16 19:45:40 <MohammadAG> thp, http://i55.tinypic.com/1zyf19f.jpg
Jan 16 19:45:53 <MohammadAG> Jaffa, it's an object name, so I just used nonWsRadio :P
Jan 16 19:46:13 <Jaffa> MohammadAG: Ah, sounds sensible :-)
Jan 16 19:46:21 <MohammadAG> thp, less clicks with that UI
Jan 16 19:46:48 <Jaffa> MohammadAG: Suggest change "TV out on" to "Clone display to TV"
Jan 16 19:46:59 <Jaffa> MohammadAG: The "on" is implicit in the [  ]
Jan 16 19:48:05 <MohammadAG> done
Jan 16 19:48:06 <MohammadAG> btw
Jan 16 19:48:10 <DocScrutinizer51> alterego: indeed, this ofono cbsms spec looks good
Jan 16 19:48:17 <MohammadAG> the save button is in the correct position now, it looks stupid in the screenshot
Jan 16 19:50:01 <thp> MohammadAG: nice :) only needs a horizontal scale for zoom factor
Jan 16 19:50:14 <MohammadAG> thp, yeah, and signals connected
Jan 16 19:50:25 <MohammadAG> need to learn about wrapping C in C++ :)
Jan 16 19:50:50 <Venemo_N900> MohammadAG: read the wikipedia article
Jan 16 19:50:59 <MohammadAG> hehe
Jan 16 19:51:11 <MohammadAG> which one?
Jan 16 19:52:12 <Venemo_N900> MohammadAG: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wrapper_function and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wrapper_library
Jan 16 19:52:37 * alterego wonders what "rat" means.
Jan 16 19:52:37 <Venemo_N900> MohammadAG: they are more generic than you need, but they should give you the idea
Jan 16 19:52:50 <Venemo_N900> MohammadAG: I can also show you an example one
Jan 16 19:54:15 <alterego> DocScrutinizer51: this might be interesting for you to: http://meego.gitorious.org/meego-cellular/matd
Jan 16 19:54:16 <MohammadAG> Venemo_N900, mafw's an example no?
Jan 16 19:54:22 <DocScrutinizer51> wrap C in C++? sounds like wrapping beef in steaks
Jan 16 19:55:22 <Appiah> yummy
Jan 16 19:55:22 <Venemo_N900> MohammadAG: the mafw wrapper code in the media player is actually not very nic
Jan 16 19:55:23 <Venemo_N900> e
Jan 16 19:55:56 <Venemo_N900> DocScrutinizer51: I like your metaphors
Jan 16 19:56:28 <MohammadAG> don't we all
Jan 16 19:58:07 <MohammadAG> thp, Jaffa http://i53.tinypic.com/15yiygy.jpg
Jan 16 20:05:40 <Jaffa> MohammadAG: Cool. I think "zoom factor" has "factor" superfluously. What does "2" mean? Double?
Jan 16 20:06:08 <MohammadAG> think so, I actually never used the app, just helping out :P
Jan 16 20:06:22 <Jaffa> :)
Jan 16 20:06:46 <lardman|afk> should convert to a percentage and get rid of factor
Jan 16 20:06:54 * lardman|afk heads back out :)
Jan 16 20:12:23 <thp> MohammadAG: great :)
Jan 16 20:17:01 <DocScrutinizer> YUCK   @brief MCE backlight control AT+CBKLT
Jan 16 20:17:52 <alterego> Heh
Jan 16 20:25:46 <javispedro> heh
Jan 16 20:26:07 <javispedro> so the guys behind the audio policies actually wanted to do a fmrx app that used the analog bypass
Jan 16 20:26:15 <javispedro> i guess they also ran out of time.
Jan 16 20:26:27 <MohammadAG> why?
Jan 16 20:26:40 <javispedro> the "fmrx" source enables the bypass
Jan 16 20:26:50 <javispedro> in pulse
Jan 16 20:26:58 <javispedro> but without actually using pulse.
Jan 16 20:29:20 <javispedro> it also forces output to headphones
Jan 16 20:45:08 <Venemo_N900> Jaffa: so what do you think about puzzle master? :)
Jan 16 20:45:45 <Jaffa> Venemo_N900: Not tried it yet - features and screenshots look shiny :-)
Jan 16 20:46:20 <Venemo_N900> Jaffa: give it 5 minutes
Jan 16 20:46:38 <Venemo_N900> Jaffa: if you're hesitating, ask MohammadAG or alterego if it's worth it :P
Jan 16 20:50:51 <Jaffa> Venemo_N900: I'm sure it's worth it; I'm just trying to get to bed ;-)
Jan 16 20:51:07 <Jaffa> Venemo_N900: Will install it and play with it on way to work (since I also have to enable extras-devel)
Jan 16 20:51:08 <Venemo_N900> Jaffa: oh, sorry :P
Jan 16 20:51:38 <Venemo_N900> Jaffa: you could dl the deb directly if you prefer to avoid devel
Jan 16 20:51:54 <Jaffa> Venemo_N900: No, happy to install individual apps from there; I just don't keep it on all the time.
Jan 16 20:52:14 <Jaffa> Venemo_N900: If it's ready enough for some users; push it to -testing, perhaps.
Jan 16 20:52:17 <Venemo_N900> Jaffa: ok. I don't keep extras and testing on. :P
Jan 16 20:53:45 <Venemo_N900> Jaffa: wanted to, but I'd like to release a bugfix release first
Jan 16 20:54:03 <Venemo_N900> Jaffa: but my laptop is at repair atm, so I can't
Jan 16 20:54:15 <Venemo_N900> Jaffa: I don't want the buggy version to go to testing
Jan 16 20:54:26 <Jaffa> Fair enough
Jan 16 20:56:40 <Venemo_N900> Jaffa: not many bugs (noone noticed), but still.
Jan 16 20:58:45 <MohammadAG> hmm
Jan 16 20:58:49 <MohammadAG> Jaffa, it's worth it :P
Jan 16 20:58:56 <MohammadAG> Whatever happened to the RX-71?
Jan 16 20:59:29 <Venemo_N900> MohammadAG: either that is the unreleased harmattan device, or the unreleased fremantle device (rumoured N920)
Jan 16 21:00:13 <MohammadAG> it's fremantle, I'm sure
Jan 16 21:00:26 <MohammadAG> but why was it dropped
Jan 16 21:00:44 <Venemo_N900> MohammadAG: because nokia management is nuts
Jan 16 21:01:17 <Venemo_N900> MohammadAG: maybe it also had something to do with announcing MeeGo, or the recent firing of a few thousand people
Jan 16 21:02:19 <MohammadAG> but it was there since N8x0 times afaik
Jan 16 21:02:51 <Venemo_N900> MohammadAG: then maybe it was some prototype never intended to the public? who knows
Jan 16 21:03:26 <Venemo_N900> MohammadAG: there was also a cancelled Maemo device between 770 and N800 afaik
Jan 16 21:03:40 <MohammadAG> hmm
Jan 16 21:05:25 <Jaffa> MohammadAG: It's not inconceivable it's a dev board.
Jan 16 21:06:19 <RST38h> RX-71 is a dev board, afaik
Jan 16 21:07:15 <Venemo_N900> MohammadAG: maybe http://wiki.maemo.org/Codenames will tell you something
Jan 16 21:08:29 <Venemo_N900> MohammadAG: see the "Hardware" section
Jan 16 21:44:33 <jacekowski> does 0x01a0 mean anything to anybody
Jan 16 21:45:15 <jacekowski> or 416 in decimal
Jan 16 21:46:23 <jacekowski> or 0x48
Jan 16 21:48:01 <chx> The Spectrum 48 was a truly amazing machine. (/me is always helpful)
Jan 16 22:03:14 <Robotnixon> Is there any chance that BBM can be ported to the n900??
Jan 16 22:03:27 <Robotnixon> or atleast the whatsapp???
Jan 16 22:06:39 <andre__> Robotnixon: what is BBM or whatsapp? maybe describe the functionality instead?
Jan 16 22:08:01 <MohammadAG> andre__, BlackBerry Messenger is BBM
Jan 16 22:08:10 <MohammadAG> WhatsApp is a rip off, imo
Jan 16 22:08:18 <Robotnixon> yup
Jan 16 22:08:20 <MohammadAG> you need internet on both devices, and you send SMSs
Jan 16 22:08:27 <MohammadAG> "SMSs"
Jan 16 22:08:42 <MohammadAG> having skype/MSN or another IM is equal to the functionality
Jan 16 22:08:52 <Robotnixon> exactly
Jan 16 22:08:53 <MohammadAG> but sadly, fart apps are successful on iPhones, so it became a trend
Jan 16 22:09:01 <andre__> so basically Avahi/Bonjour/Zeroconf?
Jan 16 22:09:16 <MohammadAG> no, it's not called IM to the user, it's called SMS
Jan 16 22:09:25 <MohammadAG> from a technical point of view...
Jan 16 22:09:27 <MohammadAG> they're the same
Jan 16 22:09:46 <andre__> ah, so basically Avahi/Bonjour/Zeroconf with some string changes (s/IM/SMS/)? :-P
Jan 16 22:10:49 <MohammadAG> yep
Jan 16 22:11:09 <MohammadAG> oh and they take your mobile number and full name to make your "username"
Jan 16 22:11:16 <Robotnixon> I would rather use something like msn or skype anyday
Jan 16 22:11:23 <MohammadAG> others search for your username using the number stored on the server
Jan 16 22:11:31 <MohammadAG> it's like a mini-facebook privacy-wise
Jan 16 22:11:36 <Robotnixon> but seeing that "the world" is no inclined to that kinna stuff
Jan 16 22:12:17 <Robotnixon> and all of my "normal" friends have blackberrys and are constantly using bbm
Jan 16 22:12:44 <MohammadAG> you need new friends :P
Jan 16 22:12:46 <Robotnixon> i figured there is nothing really stoping the n900 from gaining that funtionality right?
Jan 16 22:13:37 <MohammadAG> yeah, except BlackBerry M. being for BlackBerries, and WhatsApp being closed source
Jan 16 22:14:01 <MohammadAG> you need to ask the companies to come up with an app, and seeing how development is discouraged on Maemo 5, it's a lost cause
Jan 16 22:14:09 <MohammadAG> unless they do it in Qt for MeeGo etc etc
Jan 16 22:14:35 <Robotnixon> well we dont really need one
Jan 16 22:15:12 <Robotnixon> I mean find another phone that has all the proticals built in so seamlessly like on the n900
Jan 16 22:16:05 <Robotnixon> I honestly just want to be able to laugh at there dumb phone message system by showing them that I can run it on mine
Jan 16 22:16:07 <Arkenoi> wow. there is software for iVirt that allows reading SMS and IM. iVirt is damn expensive, but..
Jan 16 22:18:16 <alterego> I thought BBM was reverse engineered?
Jan 16 22:18:33 <alterego> At least I could have sworn there was a BBM app for symbian
Jan 16 22:21:25 <Arkenoi> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t_U6FdjVIfs
Jan 16 22:21:56 <Arkenoi> but $350 for a digital watch.. hell, my watch phone was $150 two years ago.
Jan 16 22:37:09 <alterego> Interesting to see all the MeeGo core apps use handcoded UIs
Jan 16 22:37:13 * Venemo_N900 tried skype video call today on n900, and it worked
Jan 16 22:37:18 <alterego> Oh, I suppose MTF doesn't work in Qt Designer.
Jan 16 22:37:25 <Venemo_N900> alterego: mtf doesn't have a designer
Jan 16 22:38:31 <alterego> Obviously ..
Jan 16 22:39:38 <Venemo_N900> alterego: and that stuff also precedes QML
Jan 16 22:40:24 <alterego> Sure, two completely different things though
Jan 16 22:40:35 <alterego> The fact is, currently MeeGo 1.2 uses MTF
Jan 16 22:40:37 <alterego> Not QML
Jan 16 22:40:48 <alterego> So any apps developed for 1.2 should use MTF
Jan 16 22:40:49 <Venemo_N900> yes
Jan 16 22:40:56 <alterego> Despite what anyone says :P
Jan 16 22:41:07 <Venemo_N900> but it also supports qt 4.7 which also supports qml
Jan 16 22:41:32 <alterego> MeeGo doesn't support QML yet though
Jan 16 22:41:33 <alterego> Not really.
Jan 16 22:41:42 <alterego> Not until Qt Components is released and included.
Jan 16 22:41:52 <Venemo_N900> loool
Jan 16 22:42:01 <alterego> It's fine for the odd app that doesn't need to look and feel like the MeeGo UX
Jan 16 22:42:25 <Venemo_N900> ehh
Jan 16 22:42:26 <alterego> But if you're writing MeeGo UX apps then MTF is the only real option.
Jan 16 22:42:40 <Venemo_N900> ridiculous
Jan 16 22:43:09 <alterego> And I'm working on a small utility to manage cellular data connections.
Jan 16 22:43:24 <Venemo_N900> :)
Jan 16 22:43:58 <javispedro> RST38h: managed to test the non-acrobatic hildon-desktop?
Jan 16 22:46:02 <alterego> Interesting, MeeGo seems to automagically absorb service configuration messages :)
Jan 16 22:46:35 <GeneralAntilles> . . . .
Jan 16 22:46:40 <Venemo_N900> javispedro: non-acrobatic hildon-desktop
Jan 16 22:46:48 * GeneralAntilles wonders why his desktop keeps randomly rebooting when he's not home.
Jan 16 22:46:48 <Venemo_N900> javispedro: ?
Jan 16 22:46:58 <javispedro> Venemo_N900: without the rotation animation
Jan 16 22:47:14 <Venemo_N900> javispedro: transition disabled?
Jan 16 22:47:33 <javispedro> no, code removed, in an effort to make it faster...
Jan 16 22:47:51 <Venemo_N900> lol
Jan 16 22:48:13 <Venemo_N900> if timeout is set to 0, the transition will be disabled
Jan 16 22:48:23 <Venemo_N900> (in transitions.ini)
Jan 16 22:48:41 <Venemo_N900> javispedro: can I play multiplayer with N900 openttd and pc?
Jan 16 22:48:52 <javispedro> not really, it will be relayout gtk+ apps 3 times
Jan 16 22:48:58 <javispedro> Venemo_N900: tell me =)
Jan 16 22:49:03 <Aranel> Any advices on non-profit hosting? Our website @ MeeGoTurkey is hungry for more RAM (=money) which I don't have.
Jan 16 22:49:37 <Venemo_N900> javispedro: tell what?
Jan 16 22:49:47 <javispedro> Venemo_N900: if it works
Jan 16 22:49:57 <Venemo_N900> Aranel: oh. havent tried
Jan 16 22:51:48 <Venemo_N900> javispedro: couldn't we fix it to relayout only once?
Jan 16 22:52:00 <javispedro> that's the non-acrobatic h-
Jan 16 22:52:01 <javispedro> d
Jan 16 22:52:18 <Venemo_N900> mhm
Jan 16 22:52:33 <javispedro> however, it's not yet acceptably fast. so next step would be to try to see how it invokes xrandr
Jan 16 22:57:43 <lardman|home> hmm, broken N900 really is a pita for testing
Jan 16 22:58:30 <alterego> Heh
Jan 16 23:00:47 <lardman|home> well I'm going to take the lack of a response to mean they don't want it back, so I'll try to send it off to get it repaired
Jan 16 23:01:42 <alterego> :/
Jan 16 23:05:24 <lardman|home> damn, checking with IMEI it was in warranty, with WLAN MAC it's out of warranty (not unsurprisingly)
Jan 16 23:05:57 <SpeedEvil> lardman|: good luck
Jan 16 23:06:03 <SpeedEvil> lardman|: where is this warranty checker.
Jan 16 23:06:05 <kerio> wait, why?
Jan 16 23:06:07 <kerio> D:
Jan 16 23:06:10 <SpeedEvil> I feel tempted to send in my n900.
Jan 16 23:06:17 <kerio> also all N900s are still under warranty, aren't they
Jan 16 23:06:22 <kerio> i seriously need to fix mine
Jan 16 23:06:48 <lardman|home> http://www.nokia.co.uk/support/repair/repair/warranty
Jan 16 23:07:19 <SpeedEvil> I dunno - I am unsure - I thought I rememberred a 1 year warranty
Jan 16 23:07:25 <SpeedEvil> but the product page says 2
Jan 16 23:07:29 <lardman|home> mine's more than a year old
Jan 16 23:07:38 <lardman|home> oh right
Jan 16 23:08:42 <lardman|home> does *#06# work on the N900?
Jan 16 23:08:51 <lardman|home> if so, which of the numbers does it give?
Jan 16 23:09:21 <Venemo_N900> lardman|home: try it. it works
Jan 16 23:09:25 <alterego> IMEI
Jan 16 23:09:50 <lardman|home> Venemo_N900: phone doesn't work, hence my trying to get it fixes
Jan 16 23:09:52 <lardman|home> -d
Jan 16 23:10:01 <lardman|home> alterego: thanks
Jan 16 23:11:08 <SpeedEvil> Hmm.
Jan 16 23:12:15 <SpeedEvil> the original proof of purchase,  which clearly indicates the name and address of the seller, the date and  place of purchase, the product type and the IMEI or other serial  number.
Jan 16 23:12:20 <lardman|home> ok, with my IMEI it's in warranty
Jan 16 23:12:23 <SpeedEvil> I'm fairly sure I don't have that
Jan 16 23:12:24 <alterego> Apparently mine is still in Warranty :)
Jan 16 23:12:33 <lardman|home> does one need all of the above?
Jan 16 23:12:43 <SpeedEvil> It says so on the warranty page you linked
Jan 16 23:12:55 <lardman|home> hmm, I didn't read the small print
Jan 16 23:13:05 <SpeedEvil> I don't know how flexible they are.
Jan 16 23:13:30 * alterego begs forum nokia for an N8
Jan 16 23:13:39 <SpeedEvil> They can't legally require something it's not reasonable for you to have though.
Jan 16 23:13:49 <Venemo_N900> alterego: what for?
Jan 16 23:14:04 <lardman|home> I guess I should give them a ring and ask then
Jan 16 23:14:07 <alterego> Cross platform development :P
Jan 16 23:14:30 <lardman|home> ah, it only says if possible bring a proof of purchase
Jan 16 23:15:07 <Venemo_N900> alterego: :)
Jan 16 23:15:14 <SpeedEvil> lardman:where?
Jan 16 23:15:37 <Venemo_N900> alterego: yeah I want a symbian device too to port puzzle-master
Jan 16 23:17:44 <Venemo_N900> alterego: probably the department of applied informatics can lend me one though :)
Jan 16 23:26:02 <lardman|home> hmm, filled out the form and it bumped me and is now saying the system is unable to check
Jan 16 23:26:14 <lardman|home> I'll have to phone them up tomorrow I think
Jan 16 23:27:29 * SpeedEvil checks, and finds his nokia care points are 50 miles away.
Jan 16 23:27:37 <SpeedEvil> That's not really very caring.
Jan 16 23:28:01 <Venemo_N900> where do you live SpeedEvil?
Jan 16 23:28:14 <SpeedEvil> Fife, Scotland.
Jan 16 23:28:26 <SpeedEvil> The nearest ones are glasgow/edinburgh
Jan 16 23:28:44 <Venemo_N900> mhm
Jan 16 23:29:22 <lardman|home> I couldn't get that map thingie to load
Jan 16 23:30:12 <lardman|home> stuck on "loading Store Types..."
Jan 16 23:30:42 <SpeedEvil> Of course, it offers a free download of the new version of ovi maps.
Jan 16 23:31:29 <Venemo_N900> bye now guys, and good evening
Jan 16 23:31:32 * lardman|home fires up IE as FF4 doesn't seem to like that page
Jan 16 23:31:37 <lardman|home> cu Venemo_N900
Jan 16 23:31:42 <Venemo_N900> everyone have a nice day tomorrow :)
Jan 16 23:32:16 <alterego> Interesting, so meego test is down using 'rpm'
Jan 16 23:32:25 <alterego> I wonder if the maemo test uses 'dpkg'
Jan 16 23:37:06 * lardman|home heads for bed
Jan 16 23:37:19 <lardman|home> will let you know how I get on with Nokia's warranty dept tomorrow
Jan 16 23:37:22 <alterego> That's annoying .. Wont install my RPM
Jan 16 23:37:35 <jacekowski> i spoken once with somebody from scotland with very funny accent
Jan 16 23:38:19 <SpeedEvil> Was it welsh?
Jan 16 23:39:16 <jacekowski> nah it was scottish
Jan 16 23:43:44 <Pauly> hi
Jan 16 23:45:13 <yacc> Just wondered, by does the event database do not store an end_time for outgoing calls?
Jan 16 23:45:46 <Pauly> trying to port qtwitter to maemo 5 using qt creator but im not sure about depencies
Jan 16 23:47:03 <yacc> Ok, seperate table, ...
Jan 16 23:48:06 <Pauly> is there a way i can build it without dependencies
Jan 16 23:49:14 <yacc> Ok, no seperate table, so I still wonder how to get the duration of a call from the events db.
Jan 16 23:51:22 <Pauly> i see all it needs is qoauth and qca but qca and qoauth are already copiled for maemo 5 but are named with an lib in front of them.
Jan 16 23:52:26 <MohammadAG51> just edit debian/control
Jan 16 23:53:16 <Pauly> sry as u can see ive really never compile anything
Jan 16 23:53:22 <Pauly> thank u
Jan 16 23:56:28 * alterego contemplates porting columbus to MeeGo ..
Jan 16 23:56:45 * MohammadAG51 yawns
Jan 16 23:57:31 <jacekowski> what's the point
Jan 16 23:57:36 <jacekowski> meego will be obsolete soon
Jan 16 23:57:42 <alterego> Neah
Jan 16 23:57:51 <jacekowski> people said same things about maemo
Jan 16 23:57:58 <jacekowski> and where are we now
Jan 16 23:58:07 <jacekowski> same thing will happen to meego
Jan 16 23:58:07 <alterego> Actually, I always thought Maemo was a research project.
Jan 16 23:58:15 <alterego> Neah
Jan 16 23:58:37 <alterego> We've known Maemo was a research project since the get go.
Jan 16 23:58:59 <Pauly> MohammadAG51: sry again but qt creator wont build the pro file to make debian package? im lost i been reading faqs all day lol
Jan 17 00:00:20 <trumee> i am playing some music over bluetooth. How do i find out how much cpu is the bluetooth eating up?
Jan 17 00:00:30 <Pauly> MohammadAG51 should i be using scratchbox instead? because im running qt creator on windows 7
Jan 17 00:00:38 <BCMM> trumee: top?
Jan 17 00:00:38 <trumee> top is not showing anything related to bluez
Jan 17 00:00:45 <BCMM> oh
Jan 17 00:01:16 <MohammadAG51> that's what i'm used to
Jan 17 00:01:19 <MohammadAG51> (sb)
Jan 17 00:02:23 <Pauly> MohammadAG51  i think so cause it should be a simple port because it was already ported to diablo
Jan 17 00:03:10 <Pauly> and all the dependencies are already compiled for maemo5
Jan 17 00:25:38 <DocScrutinizer> trumee: why should bluez eat any cpu cycles?
Jan 17 00:26:54 <DocScrutinizer> trumee: aiui audio gets streamed to the BT chip quite in a similar way it usually gets streamed to AIC34 soundcard
Jan 17 00:29:35 <Pauly> im reading maemo.org maemo5 sdk virtual image wiki trying to figure this out
Jan 17 00:31:51 <DocScrutinizer> Pauly: I think that's an image for vmware et al, and afaik it's rather bitrotten and hard to update
Jan 17 00:33:20 <jonwil> does anyone know how to send isi/phonet messages to the cell modem on the N900 inside fremantle/maemo? The MeeGo ofono device-specific code for the n900 claims to have cell broadcast SMS code and I want to see if I can get the same to work on the N900 inside fremantle
Jan 17 00:33:28 <jonwil> e.g. via a libcbsms or something
Jan 17 00:36:01 <BCMM> jonwil: does anybody actually broadcast those?
Jan 17 00:36:07 <jonwil> yes
Jan 17 00:36:21 <jonwil> My operator uses it to broadcast a name for the cell tower
Jan 17 00:36:22 <BCMM> where?
Jan 17 00:36:31 <jonwil> which is usually the suburb the tower is in
Jan 17 00:36:36 <jonwil> or a name like "Perth Airport"
Jan 17 00:36:36 <BCMM> oh, that's how those work
Jan 17 00:37:02 <BCMM> my nokia 3410 was able to know the names of cell towers
Jan 17 00:37:16 <BCMM> sadly, O2 didn't seem to use those, but I saw them abroad a few times
Jan 17 00:37:20 <BCMM> it was kinda useful
Jan 17 00:37:34 <BCMM> i was wondering if i could see those on the n900 (and if t-mobile has them)
Jan 17 00:37:47 <jonwil> Hence the wish to figure out how to send the isi/phonet messages
Jan 17 00:38:11 <jonwil> to see if I can replicate the sequence used by the isi modem for cbsms
Jan 17 00:39:20 <jonwil> I mean the isi modem driver in ofono
Jan 17 00:40:59 <jonwil> hmmm, maybe I should make a post about my idea. Not sure if it would be better on talk.maemo.org or on the maemo-developers list
Jan 17 00:41:19 <alterego> definitely maemo-developers :P
Jan 17 00:41:25 <jonwil> ok
Jan 17 00:41:33 <jonwil> so maemo-developers is where all the gurus hang out?
Jan 17 00:42:10 <alterego> Yeah, pretty much.
Jan 17 00:42:23 <alterego> Less static from normal users aswell.
Jan 17 00:42:28 <jonwil> ok, great
Jan 17 00:47:45 <jonwil> Given the number of people in here that didnt know what CBSMS was used for, I shall add that bit to my message so its clear why its worth having support for it
Jan 17 00:47:53 <muellisoft> Ah. I'm going nuts with scratchbox, dh7 and python-setuptools. I am hit by that problem: http://wiki.maemo.org/PyMaemo/FAQ#When_I_build_my_Python_application_on_Scratchbox.2C_files_are_installed_in_.2Fscratchbox.2F..._How_do_I_modify_Debian_packaging_so_the_correct_Python_interpreter_is_called.3F but following these instructions doesn't fix it. It works locally, but not for the builder. weird
Jan 17 00:48:16 <Pauly> DocScrutinizer: im trying to compile a qt app for maemo5
Jan 17 00:48:20 <muellisoft> I also use debhelper7 which adds another dimension of problems, I feel.
Jan 17 00:49:27 <javispedro> muellisoft: what's your app's package name?
Jan 17 00:49:44 <muellisoft> javispedro: pwnitter. Feel very free to fix it ;-)
Jan 17 00:49:48 <muellisoft> It's really annoying me.
Jan 17 00:50:11 <javispedro> unfortunately, I see that the last build was OK?
Jan 17 00:51:22 <muellisoft> javispedro: the builds are fine ;-) The builder just puts the wrong shebang for some very weird reason
Jan 17 00:56:01 <muellisoft> javispedro: any idea?
Jan 17 00:58:32 <javispedro> keep trying for the time being
Jan 17 01:00:17 <muellisoft> well. I can't concentrate anymore anyway. So I'm packing up. Thanks anyway.
Jan 17 01:00:39 <jonwil> ok, I posted to the list regarding my idea for Cell Broadcast SMS
Jan 17 01:00:53 <jonwil> and I explained why having CBSMS support would be of value (i.e. cell tower IDs/names)
Jan 17 01:01:16 <jonwil> lets hope the gurus can help with some of the deep level know-how required to talk to the cellular modem.
Jan 17 01:01:45 <javispedro> muellisoft: still there?
Jan 17 01:01:54 <javispedro> muellisoft: your build-depends are mostly empty, this can't be good.
Jan 17 01:01:54 <muellisoft> javispedro: yes
Jan 17 01:02:31 <javispedro> muellisoft: try depending on python2.5-dev or the like
Jan 17 01:03:09 <Pauly> i cant build anything im soo sad i think im retarded or something
Jan 17 01:03:11 <javispedro> since you're not installing any version of python, the autobuilder is likely using the SB one (since there's no other one)
Jan 17 01:03:15 <muellisoft> javispedro: nah. dependencies are fine. It's some scratchbox environment issue. You don't much to "build" Python packages anyway
Jan 17 01:03:28 <javispedro> muellisoft: try it =)
Jan 17 01:03:48 <javispedro> muellisoft: you need the python interpreter to install it, as I see. that means it depends on python.
Jan 17 01:04:02 <muellisoft> hm
Jan 17 01:04:11 <muellisoft> javispedro: you might have a point.
Jan 17 01:05:44 <muellisoft> okay. I'm adding python-runtime | python2.5-runtime  as build dependency as Hermes does that as well.
Jan 17 01:06:35 <muellisoft> And I'm submitting the package and leavign for my bed.
Jan 17 01:06:42 <javispedro> heh
Jan 17 01:18:52 <javispedro> muellisoft: it worked
Jan 17 01:18:56 <javispedro> aw, he just left.
Jan 17 01:19:27 <javispedro> next time I'm requesting payment beforehand :)
Jan 17 01:32:58 <javispedro> humm
Jan 17 01:33:04 <javispedro> someone is mirroring extras-devel
Jan 17 01:33:08 <javispedro> including non-free.
Jan 17 01:34:50 <jonwil> I see no reason why N900 cant do CBSMS on Fremantle, everything indicates the kernel and cellmo firmware can do it when MeeGo is installed :)
Jan 17 01:34:59 <jonwil> its just a matter of writing code for it :P
Jan 17 01:37:37 <SpeedEvil> have you tried it on the n900?
Jan 17 01:38:26 <jonwil> Someone at Nokia wrote code specifically for the n900 that pertains to cbsms. So presumably that person had info that it is compatible and would work.
Jan 17 01:38:40 <javispedro> not really
Jan 17 01:38:42 <jonwil> As for actually trying it, that's why I made the list post
Jan 17 01:38:50 <javispedro> n9 will continue using phonet
Jan 17 01:39:16 <jonwil> well this code was in a file called n900.c
Jan 17 01:39:27 <javispedro> what code?
Jan 17 01:40:14 <javispedro> http://meego.gitorious.org/meego-cellular/ofono/blobs/master/plugins/n900.c
Jan 17 01:40:20 <jonwil> yeah
Jan 17 01:40:32 <jonwil> that contains a call to ofono_cbs_create in it
Jan 17 01:40:42 <jonwil> which is specifically for cell broadcast
Jan 17 01:40:52 <javispedro> good point.
Jan 17 01:43:18 <DocScrutinizer> nice
Jan 17 01:43:47 <DocScrutinizer> still it might need a cellmo fw update, to work on N900
Jan 17 01:43:56 <javispedro> I do not think meego comes with one..
Jan 17 01:44:04 <jacekowski> question is
Jan 17 01:44:06 <jacekowski> what is that cbsms
Jan 17 01:44:09 <jacekowski> and what's the point of it
Jan 17 01:44:13 <DocScrutinizer> which of course would be installable for maemo as well, as soon as it would be published for meego
Jan 17 01:44:17 <jacekowski> and does any network support it
Jan 17 01:44:34 <jonwil> its used when towers send a tower name or suburb or postcode or coordinates
Jan 17 01:44:35 <jonwil> for one thing
Jan 17 01:44:40 <javispedro> DocScrutinizer: (being pessimistic) internal cellmo fw to put meego ofone to a test; never released publicly
Jan 17 01:44:54 <SpeedEvil> Many providers use cell-broadcast SMS
Jan 17 01:45:03 <DocScrutinizer> javispedro: my thoughts
Jan 17 01:45:44 <jonwil> We need someone running (or willing to run) MeeGo or ofono on their N900 who can test it out and see what happens, that would answer it once and for all.
Jan 17 01:46:06 <javispedro> running meego is not a black art these days, see #meego =)
Jan 17 01:46:09 <DocScrutinizer> though - not intending to be overly pessimistic - I jst say we need an actual test
Jan 17 01:46:14 <SpeedEvil> And whos provider sends cbsms
Jan 17 01:46:28 <jonwil> mine uses cbsms
Jan 17 01:47:10 <jonwil> well I posted to the devel list, maybe that will shake something loose
Jan 17 01:47:22 <DocScrutinizer> hehe
Jan 17 01:47:26 <DocScrutinizer> I doubt
Jan 17 01:48:19 <DocScrutinizer> yu should give meego a try. It's allegedly painless to install dualboot, and you're da man that knows about the meego CBSMS
Jan 17 01:48:55 <jonwil> isnt there a way to run meego from a memory card?
Jan 17 01:49:02 <DocScrutinizer> yes
Jan 17 01:49:11 <jonwil> got a link to the howto?
Jan 17 01:49:15 <javispedro> you can run it without flashing the boot loader even, if that's what you mean
Jan 17 01:49:15 <DocScrutinizer> it's the preferred way
Jan 17 01:49:25 <javispedro> usual procedure is flash a bootloader the run it from the mmc card
Jan 17 01:50:04 <javispedro> http://wiki.meego.com/ARM/N900/Install/MMC
Jan 17 01:50:10 <DocScrutinizer> http://wiki.meego.com/ARM/N900/Using_Rescue_Initrd and siblings will reveal sth I guess
Jan 17 01:51:37 <jonwil> I dont have a memory card reader that reads microsd :(
Jan 17 01:51:47 <javispedro> oh, you have one
Jan 17 01:51:51 <BCMM> jonwil: do you have an n900?
Jan 17 01:51:57 <jonwil> oh ok, so you can use the N900 to prepare the memory card?
Jan 17 01:52:22 <DocScrutinizer> FSCKNG MEEGO WIKI!!! even case sensitive, not to mention missing index pages, e.g. for > http://wiki.meego.com/ARM/N900
Jan 17 01:52:30 <BCMM> even if you can't, doesn't it export the uSD slot as USB mass storage?
Jan 17 01:52:54 <jonwil> but that doesnt let you run fdisk etc on it
Jan 17 01:53:03 <javispedro> it dos
Jan 17 01:53:04 <javispedro> es
Jan 17 01:53:15 <BCMM> you can't run fdisk on MSC devices?
Jan 17 01:53:24 <javispedro> only for muSD though
Jan 17 01:53:36 <BCMM> MSC things are block devices
Jan 17 01:53:38 <jonwil> in any case I might play with some stuff later and see what shakes loose
Jan 17 01:54:10 <SpeedEvil> http://meego.gitorious.org/meego-cellular/ofono/blobs/master/include/cbs.h
Jan 17 01:54:14 <DocScrutinizer> nice :-P >>NOTE: Read the whole guide before doing any steps from this guide to make sure you understand everything.<<
Jan 17 01:54:24 <javispedro> DocScrutinizer: a sane disclaimer
Jan 17 01:54:41 <DocScrutinizer> should get standard on each and every page
Jan 17 01:54:48 <DocScrutinizer> in whole web :-D
Jan 17 01:54:50 <javispedro> pretyt much
Jan 17 01:54:50 <javispedro> xd
Jan 17 01:55:11 <jonwil> top of my list is that I plan to take the list of packages on my n900 (from /var/lib/dkpg/info) and remove from that list all the ones which exist in the "free" repo. Then after that I will see from the list of whats left if there is anything else thats open source in the meego repos
Jan 17 01:55:17 <jonwil> ala the way I found MCE in the meego repos
Jan 17 01:55:17 <javispedro> note also that guide does not mention uboot, it stops leaving the n900 kernel intact
Jan 17 01:55:52 <javispedro> jonwil: http://mer-project.blogspot.com/2010/02/mapping-openness-of-maemo-50-pr11-and.html start from here
Jan 17 01:56:10 <jonwil> yep, I saw that page
Jan 17 01:56:33 <javispedro> imho I'm not expecting surprises
Jan 17 01:57:01 <jonwil> finding open mce code was a surprise :)
Jan 17 01:57:13 <javispedro> not for me though, I thought it was already open =)
Jan 17 01:57:21 <jonwil> nope, it wasnt
Jan 17 01:59:35 <DocScrutinizer> I adore the SIGUSR1 detour - for sure it's confusing hell out of noobs :-P
Jan 17 02:00:28 <javispedro> DocScrutinizer: blame Stallman, for not adding --verbose to dd
Jan 17 02:00:37 <DocScrutinizer> hahahahaha
Jan 17 02:01:09 <DocScrutinizer> dd if=/dev/zero of=/dev/null& pid=$!; kill -USR1 $pid ; # PRICELESS
Jan 17 02:01:56 <DocScrutinizer> esp without proper explanation or any suggestion about ^C
Jan 17 02:02:07 <javispedro> well
Jan 17 02:02:33 <javispedro> that will just start dd, then print something equivalent to "0% done; but copying at ludicrous speed"; then hang (while dd copies)
Jan 17 02:02:48 <javispedro> of course, all the user sees is 0%.
Jan 17 02:03:05 <javispedro> unless he keeps sending USR1..
Jan 17 02:03:13 <BCMM> at least on bash, you mean pid={!}
Jan 17 02:03:15 <DocScrutinizer> from another term: ""kill -USR1 $pid ""  won't even work :-P
Jan 17 02:03:21 <BCMM> i mean, pid=${!}
Jan 17 02:03:51 <DocScrutinizer> this is NOT windows, env vars are NOT global
Jan 17 02:04:14 <BCMM> env vars are global on windows?
Jan 17 02:04:20 <BCMM> wtf?
Jan 17 02:04:25 <javispedro> not on nt
Jan 17 02:04:51 <DocScrutinizer> NFC, what's windows ? :-D
Jan 17 02:04:53 <BCMM> i was gonna say, people use those for all sorts of stuff in .bat s
Jan 17 02:05:00 <SpeedEvil> The underlying cbs.c has only intel copyrights, and refers only to a qualcom modem
Jan 17 02:05:00 <SpeedEvil>  http://meego.gitorious.org/meego-cellular/ofono/drivers/atmodem/cbs.c
Jan 17 02:05:18 <DocScrutinizer> heh
Jan 17 02:05:20 <javispedro> SpeedEvil: not atmoded, isimodem
Jan 17 02:05:29 <DocScrutinizer> pop goes the bubble
Jan 17 02:05:30 <BCMM> that'd be a fantastic race condition... another program is trying to use your loop variable "i"
Jan 17 02:06:11 <SpeedEvil> javispedro: ah
Jan 17 02:07:35 * DocScrutinizer really gets a headache trying to figure why everybody and his dead dog suggests ""sudo gainroot""
Jan 17 02:08:33 <BCMM> DocScrutinizer: suggests as in says it's the correct way to get root?
Jan 17 02:08:46 <DocScrutinizer> has nobody ever done a simple ""cd"" after ""sudo gainroot" and then mused about where that got him?
Jan 17 02:08:50 <BCMM> and does /usr/bin/root count as a dead dog?
Jan 17 02:09:26 <DocScrutinizer> BCMM: err sorry?
Jan 17 02:09:38 <SpeedEvil> javispedro: I was meaning that the cbs stuff does not seem to have come from nokia, so its inclusion may not mean that there is cbs support
Jan 17 02:10:10 <BCMM> DocScrutinizer: the root command is a script that says "exec sudo gainroot --use-su"
Jan 17 02:10:16 <BCMM> without a hashbang, weirdly
Jan 17 02:10:24 <javispedro> SpeedEvil: http://meego.gitorious.org/meego-cellular/ofono/blobs/master/drivers/isimodem/cbs.c this one says "Nokia".
Jan 17 02:10:28 <jonwil> yes
Jan 17 02:10:30 <DocScrutinizer> BCMM: if I got you right then you got it wrong: /usr/bin/root has ""exec sudo gainroot --use-su""
Jan 17 02:11:14 <DocScrutinizer> which is the correct way to get root, while a mere ""sudo gainroot"" is EVIL
Jan 17 02:11:17 <BCMM> oh, you mean it's wrong if you don't ---use-su. nm
Jan 17 02:11:24 <DocScrutinizer> as it keeps env of "user"
Jan 17 02:11:39 <BCMM> i didn't know the env determined the homedir
Jan 17 02:11:46 <javispedro> theoretically, it keeps whatever env the sudoers file says
Jan 17 02:12:13 <javispedro> on Maemo, that is HOME, DISPLAY <period>
Jan 17 02:13:07 * javispedro would like to upgrade sudo since recent versions have per-cmd line environment-to-keep lists 
Jan 17 02:13:28 <DocScrutinizer> the missing shebang is actually strange and probably another fsckng busyboxism
Jan 17 02:13:35 <javispedro> meaning you can properly make sudo -s discard HOME..
Jan 17 02:14:58 <DocScrutinizer> javispedro: due to the fact sudo also gives you a new shell, this new shell will deal with all the rest of your env, via ~/.profile
Jan 17 02:15:17 <BCMM> DocScrutinizer: i don't understand at all... i thought that things other than native binaries were executed either by invoking the interpreter defined in the hashbang, or using BINFMT_MISC
Jan 17 02:15:46 <BCMM> i really hope they haven't set that up to execute everything with /bin/sh...
Jan 17 02:15:47 <DocScrutinizer> BCMM: welcome to the club. it works in bash as well
Jan 17 02:16:10 <BCMM> DocScrutinizer: sorry, what works in bash as well? /usr/bin/root?
Jan 17 02:16:15 <DocScrutinizer> yes
Jan 17 02:17:19 <BCMM> reading the hashbang isn't the shell's business, is it?
Jan 17 02:17:52 <DocScrutinizer> err, it's not afaik
Jan 17 02:18:07 <DocScrutinizer> that's a clib or kernel thing
Jan 17 02:18:13 <javispedro> I suggest you read your nearest posix spec
Jan 17 02:18:16 <DocScrutinizer> linldr or what's it called
Jan 17 02:18:31 <BCMM> DocScrutinizer: oh good, i was just feeling too embarrased to ask if it was libc or the kernel :)
Jan 17 02:18:35 <javispedro> iirc the entire shebang thing is completely non-standarized
Jan 17 02:18:46 <toresbe> The shebang is in the kernel on Linux
Jan 17 02:19:11 <javispedro> the standard dictates that the shell runs non-recognized binary files, period.
Jan 17 02:19:28 <BCMM> aaah
Jan 17 02:19:30 <DocScrutinizer> duh WUT?
Jan 17 02:19:31 <BCMM> that's why that works
Jan 17 02:19:50 <toresbe> javispedro: the shebang is registered as a binary format in the kernel
Jan 17 02:19:52 <DocScrutinizer> shell will "source" any binary garbage?
Jan 17 02:20:19 <BCMM> javispedro: so if it doesn't have a shebang and isn't one of the formats the kernel recognises, it just gets executed by the shell?
Jan 17 02:20:41 <DocScrutinizer> this sounds utterly odd
Jan 17 02:20:47 <BCMM> how does that work? hasn't the shell already given up control to the kernel by the time somebody works out if it's a kernel-supported format or not?
Jan 17 02:20:49 <javispedro> I do not remember the exact wording, but it was something like that
Jan 17 02:21:07 <toresbe> http://fxr.googlebit.com/source/fs/binfmt_script.c?v=linux-2.6.22.4
Jan 17 02:21:09 <SpeedEvil> strace ./f
Jan 17 02:21:09 <SpeedEvil> execve("./f", ["./f"], [/* 44 vars */]) = -1 ENOEXEC (Exec format error)
Jan 17 02:21:17 <SpeedEvil> (random garbage, bash)
Jan 17 02:21:19 <javispedro> SpeedEvil: "the shell"
Jan 17 02:21:23 <DocScrutinizer> then shell should throw syntax errors on random garbage files
Jan 17 02:21:25 <javispedro> ah
Jan 17 02:21:44 <SpeedEvil> same with 'ls' in it
Jan 17 02:21:47 <posix> guys, the Nokia Ovi Suite won't allow you to upload musics to the N900 flash? it only shows the memory card
Jan 17 02:21:57 <posix> anything i can do to force it to write to the phone memory?
Jan 17 02:22:01 <BCMM> so how does binfmt_misc decide what to launch? magic numbers?
Jan 17 02:22:03 <javispedro> $ dd if=/dev/urandom of=test bs=512 count=1
Jan 17 02:22:08 <javispedro> $ chmod a+x test
Jan 17 02:22:12 <SpeedEvil> javispedro: what I did
Jan 17 02:22:14 <javispedro> $ ./test
Jan 17 02:22:15 <javispedro> ./test: línea 1: error sintáctico
Jan 17 02:22:21 <javispedro> LANG=C => syntax error
Jan 17 02:22:36 <DocScrutinizer> LOL
Jan 17 02:22:43 <SpeedEvil> javispedro: shell?
Jan 17 02:22:51 <DocScrutinizer> yes :-P
Jan 17 02:22:54 <SpeedEvil> bash here
Jan 17 02:22:57 <javispedro> bash4.1
Jan 17 02:23:10 <toresbe> BCMM: binfmt_misc is one of the format identifiers in the kernel, there are others
Jan 17 02:23:19 <DocScrutinizer> sorry for lame pun
Jan 17 02:24:01 <BCMM> toresbe: yes, but it's the one that supports the use of plugins to run "interpreters" for stuff
Jan 17 02:24:12 <javispedro> nevertheless, note that I thought this was one piece of dark trivia in the posix (or was it sus?) standard
Jan 17 02:24:21 <javispedro> I did not think bash would implement it =)
Jan 17 02:24:29 <BCMM> it allows you to do things like make ./foo.exe start wine
Jan 17 02:25:13 <toresbe> As I'm brushing my teeth I don't feel like a thorough check of the kernel code but I'd assume it checks for ASCIIness.
Jan 17 02:25:28 <DocScrutinizer> kernel mimetypes \o/
Jan 17 02:25:32 <javispedro> toresbe: not the kernel, the shell
Jan 17 02:25:54 <SpeedEvil> toresbe: here at least - ls\n will not execute
Jan 17 02:26:20 <DocScrutinizer> it checks for ""#!""
Jan 17 02:26:28 <javispedro> toresbe: if you try a c app with exec() call, you will ENOEXEC as SpeedEvil saw above
Jan 17 02:26:31 <BCMM> javispedro: any idea at which point something decides to let the shell deal with it, rather than the kernel?
Jan 17 02:26:47 <toresbe> I would assume the kernel gets a go first.
Jan 17 02:27:01 <SpeedEvil> as the shell
Jan 17 02:27:24 <BCMM> hang on, do you mean the running shell gets it, or the posix shell, /bin/sh?
Jan 17 02:27:26 <SpeedEvil> exe-rwxr-xr-x 1 user users 3 2011-01-17 02:16 f
Jan 17 02:27:27 <SpeedEvil> bash-3.1$ strace ./f
Jan 17 02:27:27 <SpeedEvil> execve("./f", ["./f"], [/* 44 vars */]) = -1 ENOEXEC (Exec format error)
Jan 17 02:27:39 <DocScrutinizer> see file (1), magic (5)
Jan 17 02:27:43 <javispedro> SpeedEvil: strace does not use the shell to exec f but calls exec() directly
Jan 17 02:27:43 <SpeedEvil> err
Jan 17 02:27:44 <toresbe> but f is random data, right? So not very ASCII?
Jan 17 02:27:47 <SpeedEvil> doh
Jan 17 02:27:48 <SpeedEvil> sorry
Jan 17 02:27:50 <SpeedEvil> tired
Jan 17 02:28:07 <javispedro> toresbe: yes, kernel gets a go first.
Jan 17 02:28:17 <javispedro> execve("/home/javier/test", ["/home/javier/test"], [/* 52 vars */]) = -1 ENOEXEC (Exec format error)
Jan 17 02:28:17 <javispedro> open("/home/javier/test", O_RDONLY)     = 3
Jan 17 02:28:34 <toresbe> anyway, bedtime. Buenos noches, señores y señoras. Or something.
Jan 17 02:28:35 <javispedro> (on $ strace bash -c "/home/javier/test" )
Jan 17 02:29:04 <toresbe> La llama es un cuadrupedo.
Jan 17 02:29:27 <javispedro> cya
Jan 17 02:29:49 <javispedro> ah, dark unix trivia =)
Jan 17 02:29:52 <javispedro> completely useless
Jan 17 02:30:29 <javispedro> if you ever wanted to know about dark windows trivia, see http://blogs.msdn.com/b/oldnewthing/
Jan 17 02:30:51 * javispedro is going to grab it for bedtime tonight
Jan 17 02:31:16 <javispedro> (dark windows trivia also completely useless, ofc)
Jan 17 02:31:20 <toresbe> If I wanted to become familiar with strange decisions made by the Microsoft developer team in the mid-1980s, I'd boot Windows 7.
Jan 17 02:31:58 <DocScrutinizer> hehe
Jan 17 02:32:09 <javispedro> hey, I'd love the kind of decisions they make because idiot devs assumed something they should't have assumed
Jan 17 02:32:28 <javispedro> like the guy who saw that pids got reused at 65536, assumed this meant pid_t was 16 bit
Jan 17 02:32:59 <javispedro> makes you want to punch them in the face
Jan 17 02:33:29 <toresbe> if you think observing their design is painful, try using it in a professional context.
Jan 17 02:33:38 <BCMM> talking of windows oddity that won't go away, can anybody explain COM1 and NUL?
Jan 17 02:33:38 <DocScrutinizer> udev rules, anybody?
Jan 17 02:33:43 <toresbe> Speaking of a professional context; bedtime!
Jan 17 02:34:18 <nox-> BCMM, comes from dos (or cp/m even?)
Jan 17 02:34:29 <DocScrutinizer> CP/M \o/
Jan 17 02:34:41 <BCMM> specifically, why it is impossible to rename a file to either
Jan 17 02:34:58 <BCMM> and what on earth will happen if i create a file with such a name using NTFS-3g?
Jan 17 02:34:58 <javispedro> because "the shell is smarter than you" reasons
Jan 17 02:34:59 <DocScrutinizer> hahahahahaha
Jan 17 02:35:04 <javispedro> there's no technical reason on nt anymore
Jan 17 02:35:38 <DocScrutinizer> BCMM: what will happen? of course your HDD will explode ;-D
Jan 17 02:35:41 <nox-> javispedro, cmd.exe and `smart' in one sentence? :)
Jan 17 02:35:43 <javispedro> but someone is his infinite wisdom decided to prevent you doing that just in case.
Jan 17 02:36:46 <DocScrutinizer> protecting the ancestors
Jan 17 02:36:56 <javispedro> or the idiot devs, as per above
Jan 17 02:37:22 <DocScrutinizer> iirc you really can bring down a win98 with a disk that has a file */COM1
Jan 17 02:37:23 <nox-> and btw did you know that windows also used 32bit crc as `secure hash' in at least once place? :)
Jan 17 02:37:37 <chx> i doubt it's just cmd that stops you from accessing those files
Jan 17 02:37:41 <chx> i suspect somethign way, way deper
Jan 17 02:37:51 <javispedro> chx: it's the graphical shell, explorer.exe
Jan 17 02:38:03 <chx> only that deep?
Jan 17 02:38:07 <javispedro> chx: unless you're talking about 9x, in which case: everything.
Jan 17 02:38:10 <chx> not the vfs driver?
Jan 17 02:38:16 <DocScrutinizer> chx: exactly
Jan 17 02:38:22 <javispedro> they're idiots, but not that idiot.
Jan 17 02:38:26 <chx> lulz
Jan 17 02:38:46 <DocScrutinizer> javispedro: they *Are* not maybe, but they *have been*
Jan 17 02:38:48 <chx> well, you know, you can't put a slash in a unix filename
Jan 17 02:38:52 <chx> nor, i think, a chr(0)
Jan 17 02:39:12 <BCMM> chx: COM1 seems to actually still exist, at some level, since "edit com1" hangs CMD
Jan 17 02:39:24 <DocScrutinizer> yep
Jan 17 02:39:27 <javispedro> edit is probably a dos app?
Jan 17 02:39:29 <chx> try sending some data to the serial port
Jan 17 02:39:31 <javispedro> does it run under 64 bits?
Jan 17 02:39:40 <BCMM> javispedro: yeah, it's the old DOS text editor
Jan 17 02:39:51 <chx> try smthng like notepad or i dunno
Jan 17 02:40:22 <nox-> <DocScrutinizer> javispedro: they *Are* not maybe, but they *have been* - thats also what i think
Jan 17 02:41:30 <DocScrutinizer> actually the COMn, NUL, PRT bug has a beard to the toes and once been really nasty
Jan 17 02:41:40 <DocScrutinizer> LPT
Jan 17 02:41:40 <BCMM> chx: heh, notepad com1 produces a dialog saying "incorrect function"
Jan 17 02:41:44 <DocScrutinizer> ?
Jan 17 02:43:01 <javispedro> either way, time to go
Jan 17 02:43:13 <chx> there were malware using those names, cant remember what
Jan 17 02:43:28 <DocScrutinizer> And I still believe in creating a file /ms/is/gashead/NUL on a floppy and inserting that into a win<NT box will cause it to emit magic blue smoke
Jan 17 02:43:50 <javispedro> doubt it, you might not be able to delete the file
Jan 17 02:43:55 <javispedro> but it won't crash
Jan 17 02:44:21 <DocScrutinizer> NUL might be "harmless", COM1 is evil iirc
Jan 17 02:44:29 <javispedro> also doubt it
Jan 17 02:44:33 <DocScrutinizer> as well as LPT / PRN
Jan 17 02:44:40 <javispedro> they have no longer any meaning to the kernel
Jan 17 02:44:48 <javispedro> it's just userspace
Jan 17 02:45:00 <DocScrutinizer> no longer, yes. I said win < NT
Jan 17 02:45:05 <javispedro> ah, sorry.
Jan 17 02:45:12 <javispedro> yes, then, completely right.
Jan 17 02:45:16 <javispedro> cya
Jan 17 02:45:21 <DocScrutinizer> n8
Jan 17 02:46:48 <DocScrutinizer> so it's completely clear to me why redmond will forbid COM files 2035 still
Jan 17 02:49:32 <chx> DocScrutinizer: but you know why this happened, dont you?
Jan 17 02:49:53 <chx> DocScrutinizer: 'cos the first QDOS didnt have directories but it wanted to copy the Unix device files
Jan 17 02:49:56 <DocScrutinizer> because Billyboy stole Dos from some hacker?
Jan 17 02:50:04 <SpeedEvil> CON /... is a CPM legacy isn't it?
Jan 17 02:50:06 <chx> he didnt steal it
Jan 17 02:50:11 <chx> he bought it
Jan 17 02:50:48 <DocScrutinizer> yeah, for a really too low/high price (depending on point of view)
Jan 17 02:51:02 <chx> well it was the business of the decade
Jan 17 02:51:10 <chx> they already knew how much IBM will pay for them
Jan 17 02:51:20 <chx> *to them
Jan 17 02:51:21 <DocScrutinizer> too low compared to the money he got from IBM for it. Too high for what it gave to users
Jan 17 02:51:26 <nox-> SpeedEvil, i thought so too but wasnt sure
Jan 17 02:51:46 <nox-> (too long ago... :)
Jan 17 02:51:46 <SpeedEvil> I think I've dumped most of my CPM memories.
Jan 17 02:52:00 <SpeedEvil> I used it briefly on a word-processor type thing
Jan 17 02:52:02 <nox-> the \ still lives on tho at least...
Jan 17 02:52:24 <DocScrutinizer> year wordmaster - great piece of sw
Jan 17 02:52:26 <BCMM> chx: ah, was wondering why dev node equivalents were always in the current directory...
Jan 17 02:52:36 <DocScrutinizer> yeah even
Jan 17 02:52:38 <chx> come on
Jan 17 02:52:47 <nox-> wasnt it wordstar?
Jan 17 02:52:47 <chx> you are Tom Hacker
Jan 17 02:52:58 <DocScrutinizer> wordmaster was the hacker edition
Jan 17 02:53:01 <nox-> haha ok
Jan 17 02:53:09 <BCMM> why would anybody create a system without directories after directories had been invented anyway?
Jan 17 02:53:13 <chx> and someone shows up at the door with 50 000 dollars in 1981
Jan 17 02:53:21 <chx> to buy an OS that made no money for you
Jan 17 02:53:25 <BCMM> meh, i guess that's just a special case of "why was DOS such a step backwards?"
Jan 17 02:53:30 <chx> you do not ask whether to jump just how high
Jan 17 02:53:33 <DocScrutinizer> used it a lot until ~1985
Jan 17 02:53:37 <DocScrutinizer> iirc
Jan 17 02:53:46 <nox-> BCMM, bc 8bit cpus only had 64k address space maybe
Jan 17 02:54:36 <chx> this whole world is built on hacks
Jan 17 02:54:43 <nox-> oh yeah
Jan 17 02:54:58 <nox-> and reinvented wheels and nih
Jan 17 02:55:04 <DocScrutinizer> DOS was a "just for my own purposes PoC" OS written by some hacker, who told Billyboy "It doesn't work and it's bullshit - you know that!"
Jan 17 02:55:08 <chx> the IAPX 432 did not want to happen
Jan 17 02:55:16 <chx> so they implemented the 8086 in ... what six weeks?
Jan 17 02:55:20 <SpeedEvil> chx: and that was a hack
Jan 17 02:55:24 <chx> cant remember but it was something like that
Jan 17 02:55:44 <nox-> ibm should have used 68k for their first pc...
Jan 17 02:55:47 <SpeedEvil> chx: the iapx wasn't ever going to be a sane processor. The compiler screwed it basically.
Jan 17 02:57:01 <DocScrutinizer> those were the days
Jan 17 02:57:23 <SpeedEvil> AIUI anyway.
Jan 17 02:57:26 <SpeedEvil> Way before me.
Jan 17 02:57:54 <BCMM> DocScrutinizer: originating as a "just for my own purposes PoC" isn't always such a bad thing:. recognise this? "I'm doing a (free) operating system (just a hobby, won't be big and professional like gnu) for 386(486) AT clones."
Jan 17 02:58:26 <chx> Intel, to this day, is a marketing company
Jan 17 02:58:33 <DocScrutinizer> I seem to recall having seen this as well, yeah
Jan 17 02:58:41 <chx> they could not design a decent CPU if their life depend on it
Jan 17 02:59:23 <chx> BCMM: well, there are many to this day who would argue with you that thing is a hobby and not serious
Jan 17 02:59:45 <DocScrutinizer> yeah, and 8086 has been commonly attributed as braindead
Jan 17 02:59:45 <BCMM> chx: given the architechture they're staying compatible with, haven't they done pretty well in recent years?
Jan 17 02:59:46 <nox-> chx, i guess the engineers could just marketing prevents them...
**** ENDING LOGGING AT Mon Jan 17 02:59:57 2011