**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Thu Feb 03 02:59:57 2011 Feb 03 03:01:33 If I want my bluetooth keyboard to work with N900, what should I read? Feb 03 03:06:57 ebzzry, what is there to read? just sync it Feb 03 03:07:28 tank-man: it pairs easily? Feb 03 03:07:43 i have a n800 and it was easy to do Feb 03 03:07:56 tank-man: As easy as 1) Turn on BT on N900, 2) Pair with keyboard? Feb 03 03:08:18 easy as goto control panel and pick bluetooh and add device then use it Feb 03 03:09:22 so easy to do, you wouldn't know you were using a linux system :) Feb 03 03:13:01 i dont think that works on n900 anymore Feb 03 03:13:09 it did work on n800 though Feb 03 03:15:54 or maybe that was just su-8w that didn't work anymore Feb 03 03:15:56 * ShadowJK shrugs Feb 03 03:16:56 tank-man: Are these applicable for the N900? Feb 03 03:17:38 if it was working in n800, why would nokia change the way it works and break it in n900? Feb 03 03:17:55 i used a apple bt keyboard Feb 03 03:18:20 tank-man: You can't make that kind of generalization, I'm afraid. Feb 03 03:20:19 does nokia have a history of breaking things ? Feb 03 03:22:29 (Not to be rude, tankman) But either you're trolling or you are ignorant, I'd assume the former. Feb 03 03:23:36 short answer: pressed on time the device specs were removed of things deemed unnecessary like bluetooth file browsing (because apparently when n900 is both phone and tablet you dont have phone to browse anymore) and bt keyb (since you have builtin keyb) and bluetooth outgoing interwebs (since n900 has cellular internets builtin) Feb 03 03:23:53 and those untested things were disabled in the configuration files Feb 03 03:27:32 i think there are issues with keyboard layouts if you just enable the bt keyboard functionality, there's most likely a thread on t.m.o., I remember seeing one... Feb 03 03:27:42 don't remember the thread topic/name though Feb 03 03:47:14 <[q^_^p]> hi for all i want some i can not connect my bt mouse to phone some help please Feb 03 05:45:44 bah, its been almost a week since I dropped my N900 off at Nokia Care and its still not back (they claim they are waiting for a replacement and its not here yet :( ) Feb 03 05:46:44 I think I'm on week 2 or 3 Feb 03 05:46:48 I forget Feb 03 05:47:29 and I thought Nokia was the best in the industry when it came to repairs and warranty Feb 03 05:47:57 lol :) Feb 03 05:49:16 My previous Motorola phone was fixed fairly quickly in both times it was broken (once at the official Motorola warranty place) Feb 03 06:36:59 I guess it depends on where the replacement phone is comming from as to how long it should take to get there Feb 03 07:23:42 low absolute number of N900 sold (compared to popular phones of Nokia) causes repair facilities being a sparse resource. Then the "complex" OS aka firmware is likely to cause a huge number of false positives, so they won't hand out replacements easily, and retail shows don't have competence to "fix" soft errors Feb 03 07:23:52 and mooo Feb 03 07:25:08 s/shows/shops/. Feb 03 07:25:32 m00f Feb 03 07:26:42 German repair shops all have a "usually 2 weeks, sometimes longer" policy for N900 repairs Feb 03 07:27:31 they all send in almost every N900 - i.e. if it's not fixable by any semi-talented tech user as well Feb 03 07:29:12 the special tools (fixtures, jigs, tools, spare parts) needed for N900 are simply too expensive for the half a dozen N900 they might see coming in for repair during a year Feb 03 07:31:03 (the bane of too many service centers :-P) Feb 03 07:31:53 While I might agree with you, I have to say that if -I- can fix one with the tools I have lying around :\ Feb 03 07:32:19 RobbieThe1st, then you're worth more per year than a service tech earns Feb 03 07:33:00 sure, but then you got "infinite" time resources and surely better knowledge about the device, than a nokia care center Feb 03 07:33:37 I suppose. Yea, 2 hours might be considered high. Feb 03 07:35:51 when I asked about my power button they fscked up at Nokia repair facility, the shop told me they either *need* to send in again as it's been Nokia that broke it. OR they can repair "ambulant" but that will cost *me* ~40EUR Feb 03 07:36:03 the problem is invariably that after someone passes a certain skill level, their time is better spent doing something else than working in a repair center Feb 03 07:38:46 now that's been about a very simple SMD switch that either got loose and needs 30s with the hot iron, or needs a complete replacement of switch (10min) or even a swap of whole PCB (send in to Nokia anyway) Feb 03 07:40:06 but incl all the dis- and re-assembling and bureaucratic shit they are easily hitting the 1h mark Feb 03 07:41:10 and it's unclear how much Nokia is willing to pay them for an ambulant fix - probably nothing at all in this case Feb 03 07:41:34 Well, I guess that's why you keep a soldering iron yourself - makes things a -lot- faster when things break Feb 03 07:42:12 that's an option I keep for the time when the switch breaks completely :-) Feb 03 07:44:03 I'm too scared by the one device that ceased working after I disassembled it (and I'm for sure no less skilled than any arbitrary repair shop dude, so that's another problem they have to count in and deal with) Feb 03 07:45:21 yeah, taking these things apart is always a roll of the dice Feb 03 07:45:45 "sorry dead customer, when we disassembled it, the self destruct got trigered. Too bad..." - usually won't fly Feb 03 07:45:57 dear* :-P Feb 03 07:46:23 dead is because that's how long it takes to come back with the news ... Feb 03 07:46:37 yeah :-D Feb 03 07:46:58 dearest next of kin: ... Feb 03 07:47:05 no wonder, with *these* news I'd be reluctant as well :-P Feb 03 07:48:56 plan: wait til summer holiday. Instruct trainee to call customer during my offtime and tell him the device magically disappeared Feb 03 07:50:38 then order a new N900 "for display", send to customer, and shredder the documents about the whole case Feb 03 07:51:10 * johnx has a 'display' n800 :) Feb 03 07:51:25 blame shop lifters Feb 03 07:51:51 eh? No, I mean I bought the floor demo unit Feb 03 07:52:26 And I completed the repair shop employee's plan by point 3 Feb 03 07:52:31 the store was going out of business and I convinced them to give me the demo unit, just a bare N800 and charger Feb 03 07:52:35 ah Feb 03 07:52:36 got it Feb 03 07:55:19 I'm actually wondering where to get vmware for maemo Feb 03 07:55:47 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UNo6pn-dnSQ Feb 03 07:56:01 Was there even a beta or anything? I thought it was just a vaporous demo Feb 03 07:56:08 not like I've really searched a single minute yet Feb 03 07:57:22 well in my case they said first thing monday morning "device being looked at by Nokia technician" followed soon after by "waiting for replacement Nokia handset" Feb 03 07:57:57 so its clear that they looked at it and then decided straight away that it was better to replace the phone than to attempt a repair Feb 03 07:58:46 The only question is where the replacement phone has to come from (e.g. eastern states, Asia, Europe) and how long its going to take to get here from there :( Feb 03 07:59:23 next door, and 3 weeks Feb 03 08:00:12 Given the likely small # of N900s in Perth, I doubt Nokia Care would have one locally Feb 03 08:00:33 My guess is that its either comming from some central warehouse in Sydney or Melbourne Feb 03 08:00:55 or its comming from somewhere in Asia where the phones get made and packaged Feb 03 08:11:30 Nokia most likely has one "service and repair facility" (probably 3 employees) for whole aussiland Feb 03 08:13:18 depending on holiday schedules, floods, and random nature of # of repair requests/week, this may get processed same day or the other month Feb 03 08:14:06 nope, they definatly have a local repair center Feb 03 08:14:27 They definatly have a "nokia care" facility in Perth Feb 03 08:14:34 that does actual repairs Feb 03 08:14:48 what's "local"? like "on southern hemisphere"? then yes Feb 03 08:15:17 Local as in ~1-1.5 hours away Feb 03 08:15:29 I saw it first hand when I dropped my phone off Feb 03 08:15:35 well, that's not contradicting my assumptions it's the only one in Perth Feb 03 08:15:40 and it was clear that it was an actual repair center Feb 03 08:15:45 and yes its the only one in Perth Feb 03 08:16:02 Perth is the only one, sorry Feb 03 08:16:13 nope, they have others in other states Feb 03 08:16:27 amazing Feb 03 08:16:27 I have seen the Brisbane one from the outside Feb 03 08:16:35 or was that the Melbourne one Feb 03 08:16:36 I forget Feb 03 08:16:49 so they have 3 centers with one employee rather than one with 3 of them? Feb 03 08:17:07 in any case given how fast they took to make the "replace rather than repair" decision, the number of repair people they have doesn't matter in this case Feb 03 08:17:58 They had at least 3 employees sitting there front-of-house dealing with customers. Plus several technicians that I saw in the back room through the open door Feb 03 08:18:23 that decision was a statement of the shop where you sent in the device. It only means "we can't do anything as it's more complicated than batery swap. We send it in" Feb 03 08:20:31 jonwil: I guess you still know IMEI and ser# of your original device. Compare that to the 'swapped' 'new' one you get Feb 03 08:21:00 My bet is that because no local carrier sells the N900 and there are so few around, they probably dont have the spares on hand/know-how that they would have for a really popular handset like the N95 Feb 03 08:21:17 jonwil: iirc your device had that FPC problem. They will swap the flexible board, at central nokia repair facility Feb 03 08:21:41 jonwil: exactly Feb 03 08:22:00 neither know how, nor spare parts, nor tools Feb 03 08:25:56 I got NFC as I never been in resales/CustomerCare business, but I guess all hw-manufacturers have a deal with their resellers about repair procedures, that goes like this: "repair it locally and get $xx from us, on sending in documentation about customer and fixed parts. Or send it in to our central repair facility" Feb 03 08:26:13 here $xx is rather low **** ENDING LOGGING AT Thu Feb 03 08:26:14 2011 **** BEGIN LOGGING AT Thu Feb 03 08:30:17 2011 Feb 03 08:31:06 N900 is on sale for ~300$ now. This means internal value inside Nokia at large is <<100$ for one device. Now guess what they need to calculate for one hour of bench or office time to refurbish a device, and how long that actually might take, to make sure you're not shipping devices that come back for repair later^H^H immediately Feb 03 08:31:18 hmmm, good point Feb 03 08:31:43 I still think they would have said "handset being repaired" if that's what was happening (regardless of whether it was happening locally or not) Feb 03 08:32:34 just check your ser+/IMEI later Feb 03 08:32:42 we'll all be wiser than Feb 03 08:32:58 then* Feb 03 08:33:41 yeah Feb 03 08:34:59 for my repair they weren't even able to tell me what's been done exactly @ Nokia central repair facility, they just knew "it got fixed" Feb 03 08:35:23 Oh and btw, my phone cost me $541 total Feb 03 08:35:25 so it wasnt cheap Feb 03 08:35:33 Thats AU$ btw Feb 03 08:35:48 anyhow I will compare the phone to the serial # on my proof of purchase Feb 03 08:36:04 I don't think they take it serious to use the correct term about what Nokia will do, esp if they don't know beforehand Feb 03 08:36:13 hmmm ok Feb 03 08:38:08 in your case they probably will do a flexiboard swap (the thing that is cable as well as PCB holding front cam, LED, ALS, earpiece...) Feb 03 08:42:08 http://www.ownta.com/original-nokia-n900-cell-phone-slide-flex-cable-ribbon-with-camera.html <--this one Feb 03 08:42:56 gah. soooo much moves in a couple 'patch' releases of the linux kernel Feb 03 08:43:16 * johnx runs a make oldconfig on 2.6.37 using a .config from 2.6.28 Feb 03 08:43:32 the D shaped brown thingie at end of the dark flat cable is what's usually breaking Feb 03 08:44:06 C-shaped? Feb 03 08:57:14 LOL @ http://www.ownta.com/brand-new-nokia-n900-unlocked-cell-phone.html <-- is that a N810-WIMAX? Or why is this one black? Feb 03 08:58:39 Doc, yes, it's a WiMAX Feb 03 08:58:55 orange letters on the keyboard = wimax, IIRC Feb 03 08:59:53 The wimax variant is AIUI rarer than n900s. Feb 03 08:59:58 "John Carmack knows how to invoke the *real* console, to enter cheats and set sv_gravity 0. But he isn't telling anyone, as he hates cheaters." Feb 03 09:01:31 "John Carmack once invented the lighting model for games that is better than real sunlight and produces good fps on a PentiumII. But he does not release this engine, becuase he loves God and hates showing His incompetence in the matters of lighting." Feb 03 09:01:58 hehe Feb 03 09:02:09 "Most Carmack's games are based on real events that will occur in 2110." Feb 03 09:25:00 my god that flexboard thing is more expensive than I thought it would be Feb 03 09:25:26 It's not covered under warranty? Feb 03 09:26:20 it should be Feb 03 09:26:41 but the price on that link from earlier suggests that its more expensive for the part than I thought it was Feb 03 09:27:14 ah Feb 03 09:41:46 jonwil: Check ebay. Feb 03 09:42:07 I dont need a replacement part, Nokia is fixing my phone under warranty Feb 03 09:42:07 jonwil: I got a LCD screen for <$50US. Took a while to arrive, but still Feb 03 09:42:32 I am just surprised at how expensive N900 parts can be Feb 03 09:43:21 In volume, they're probably cheaper, but you're not buying 100k. Feb 03 09:45:34 jonwil: Expensive as compared to what? Feb 03 09:58:51 as in compared to price of a whole device vs price of the sum of its parts. Same for every car and whatever Feb 03 09:59:48 LCD + touchpad + flexiboard > complete N900 with mainboard, case, charger and all Feb 03 10:00:15 not exactly, but you get the picture Feb 03 10:00:53 original BL-5J: ~45$ Feb 03 10:01:32 (Nokia list) Feb 03 10:02:49 I've seen devices where a single spare part was more expensive than the whole device, new, street sale Feb 03 10:10:40 btw I thinks it's extremely poor design Nokia hasn't thought about replacing *just* the flexicable, I.E. make that detachable from the expensive flexiboard with all the components like front camera, LED, ALS, earpiece... Feb 03 10:11:05 and add *another* point of failure? Feb 03 10:11:12 hmm Feb 03 10:11:36 maybe they thought it was fine like this, they weren't expecting it to break so often Feb 03 10:11:46 (same for the usb :< ) Feb 03 10:11:47 yeah, probably Feb 03 10:12:29 they should Feb 03 10:12:52 de press ed Feb 03 10:13:01 Another point of failure, another assmebly operation, and another $.1 BOM Feb 03 10:13:48 * MohammadAG depresses ed Feb 03 10:13:51 for the USB wait a few weeks/months longer. I bought a bare main PCB, so I'll check out all the undocumented testpads and eventually will come up with a drop-in cradle solution for charging that won't stress USB receptacle by design Feb 03 10:13:52 alterego, then? Feb 03 10:13:53 My ex wants me to go over to the flat and make cakes with her Feb 03 10:14:27 DocScrutinizer: I keep meaning to make a low-profile right-angle connector. Feb 03 10:14:27 DocScrutinizer: you bought a N900 main board? Feb 03 10:14:41 alterego: yup Feb 03 10:14:47 http://www.ownta.com/compatible-nokia-n900-cell-phone-pcb-board-without-spareparts.html alterego Feb 03 10:15:00 DocScrutinizer: nice, how much did that set you back? Feb 03 10:15:09 alterego, uh.-oh Feb 03 10:15:26 see ^^^ Feb 03 10:15:32 I think I'm more likely to get a spare screen over any other spare part :) Feb 03 10:15:39 Cheers Feb 03 10:16:13 friggin useless part, except for me to check traces Feb 03 10:16:28 Oh, right Feb 03 10:16:39 It's just the _board_ :D Feb 03 10:16:46 so please don't bother to buy one even for $10, unless you understand *exactly* what that is Feb 03 10:17:08 Still yeah, that's quite useful, in conjunction with the schematicsa Feb 03 10:17:23 yep Feb 03 10:17:33 I don't really have much interest in modding the hardware tbh. Feb 03 10:17:48 I have Feb 03 10:17:59 you're an engineer :P Feb 03 10:18:07 also interested in augmenting the incredibly crippled schematics Feb 03 10:18:09 I see the N900 as a platform for me to get seriously into coding Qt apps for the next wave of devices. Feb 03 10:18:32 Heh, still I would like a digital compass Feb 03 10:18:40 install one Feb 03 10:18:54 I think that's the only mod that'd I'd be interested in for the N900 Feb 03 10:19:03 alterego: gyro too is useful Feb 03 10:19:06 this project will help designing a hw-mod, so you get a nicely integrated one Feb 03 10:19:08 So I can do some cool augmented reality stuff. Feb 03 10:19:11 Yeah Feb 03 10:19:18 aren't there USB digital compasses Feb 03 10:19:28 MohammadAG: probably Feb 03 10:19:32 MohammadAG: Installed in the actual camera Feb 03 10:19:48 I would prefer a micro sd one tbh :) Feb 03 10:19:49 SpeedEvil, hmm? Feb 03 10:20:06 MohammadAG: there's probably no free USB to hook them up though (if you plan to integrate and solder) Feb 03 10:20:08 alterego, me too, but I doubt they're that small :P Feb 03 10:20:22 alterego: I've looked into it, but I can't find a compass chip thin enough to put in the microSD. Feb 03 10:20:38 DocScrutinizer, I was thinking removable and portable Feb 03 10:20:40 SpeedEvil: oh, I thought I saw someone doing one. Feb 03 10:20:50 But they hadn't "done" it yet. Feb 03 10:20:52 I'm thinking console tty Feb 03 10:21:12 Admittedly it has very limited use (probably only useful in the N900) :D Feb 03 10:21:15 or even something we don't know of yet, like I2C Feb 03 10:21:46 Yeah, that'd be nice. Feb 03 10:22:19 there's quite a number of testpads behind battery, which are largely undocumented in schematics Feb 03 10:22:29 Yeah Feb 03 10:22:40 I know there's usb and a tty there Feb 03 10:22:51 might even be possible to develop a solder free "plug" for that Feb 03 10:22:52 probably jtag Feb 03 10:22:58 yup Feb 03 10:23:12 DocScrutinizer: it is, I plan on doing something along those lines. Feb 03 10:23:28 fine :-D Feb 03 10:23:38 I developed a similar cable for another handset. Feb 03 10:24:56 * DocScrutinizer grabs t900, rips out batery and uses caliper rule to see what's headroom for the 'plug' Feb 03 10:27:00 2.56mm :-D Feb 03 10:27:24 that's GREAT Feb 03 10:31:14 I think a acrylic block of that thickness, with holes drilled in, and tiny gold plated springs, might do Feb 03 10:35:33 DocScrutinizer: read the wiki Feb 03 10:35:40 DocScrutinizer: most of these testpads are documented now Feb 03 10:35:44 I'm more interested in VBUS for now, for attaching an alternative charging contact assembly Feb 03 10:35:46 DocScrutinizer: as in half of them Feb 03 10:36:02 yeah, I'm wondering about the other half Feb 03 10:36:12 well, i was messing with scope on them Feb 03 10:36:16 and nothing was there Feb 03 10:37:02 but hmm Feb 03 10:37:05 i have an idea Feb 03 10:37:15 my next plan had been to use R-meter to check if ther's any VBUS pad. But then I bought that blank PCB today Feb 03 10:37:18 hmm Feb 03 10:37:20 no i don't Feb 03 10:39:28 wheee Feb 03 10:40:09 Should be able to trace the pads back to whaever chip they're connected to and find out what it is Feb 03 10:40:16 vbatt, mod omap, mod cmt serial access and cmt xti and ape xti - those are the signals available on testpads. Unconfirmed and don't ask where from I got this Feb 03 10:40:29 mod omap? Feb 03 10:40:37 DocScrutinizer: useful cheat I've used in the past. Get strip of copper foil. Now, probe one point with an ohmeter probe, and the other one connected to teh foil. Feb 03 10:40:58 DocScrutinizer: now, you can rub the foil over the board, and find where it beeps _lots_ faster Feb 03 10:41:14 yep, thought same Feb 03 10:41:28 what is that "mod omap" Feb 03 10:41:47 sorry, no further info available Feb 03 10:42:05 I guess it's modem, or UART Feb 03 10:42:27 or mood of day Feb 03 10:42:29 modem OMAP Feb 03 10:42:45 that is - the serial port of the modem debug Feb 03 10:42:54 not the 'application' port Feb 03 10:44:38 well, vbat probably just the batery contact, not actually a testpad Feb 03 10:45:15 it's basically what's written on one of those weird expensive fictures Feb 03 10:45:59 mod omap is serial console Feb 03 10:46:00 btw. do you know that they have nothing inside Feb 03 10:46:16 sure Feb 03 10:46:17 it's just like a plug/connector converter Feb 03 10:46:25 yup Feb 03 10:47:19 it has access to vbatt, mod omap, mod cmt serial access and cmt xti and ape xti -- with pins: left-to-right, top, 7 pins, 6 pins, bottom, 3 pins, 8 pins Feb 03 10:47:50 draw it Feb 03 10:48:13 and btw. i never managed to get anything on cmt pads Feb 03 10:48:29 only pads that were alive were omap serial Feb 03 10:48:41 XTI eXtended Tracing Interface Feb 03 10:49:16 debug output of cmt usually needs some enabling command Feb 03 10:49:27 external Feb 03 10:49:30 at least calypso did Feb 03 10:50:18 jacekowski: I'm just offering hearsay Feb 03 10:50:39 and I heard: XTI eXtended Tracing Interface Feb 03 10:51:10 morning Feb 03 10:51:43 morning lardman Feb 03 10:51:44 this is SF-148T Feb 03 10:52:37 now you got it all, my secret wisdom :-P Feb 03 10:53:43 I don't think it's much of an NDA covered topic anyway, but hard to get that info bits Feb 03 10:55:15 next chapter will be genuine RE results of the bare PCB :-D Feb 03 10:55:55 donations welcome ;-D Feb 03 11:01:36 well, that's good idea Feb 03 11:01:40 buy broken n900 Feb 03 11:01:43 desolder it Feb 03 11:01:47 or just blank pcb Feb 03 11:06:00 jacekowski: I ordered a blank PCB today ;-D Feb 03 11:06:58 donations were meant in $$ or batteries, tools, pizza and beer shipped express Feb 03 11:07:14 though I appreciated donations of broken N900 as well Feb 03 11:09:45 January donation balance for h-e-n: ~24EUR :-P Feb 03 11:10:30 that almost compensates the one battery I killed Feb 03 11:10:58 remember to split it with Paul :) Feb 03 11:11:07 sure Feb 03 11:11:28 I'll send half of the pizza to him :-D Feb 03 11:11:53 I want 1/0 of all donations Feb 03 11:12:01 :P Feb 03 11:12:51 MohammadAG: so you're going to give infinite money to the cause? Feb 03 11:12:55 well, that's not hard: 1/0 * (virtually) 0 = 100% of nuttin Feb 03 11:14:09 DocScrutinizer: nope Feb 03 11:14:11 1/0 is nothing Feb 03 11:14:18 0/0 is anything Feb 03 11:14:30 what is +9000/0? Feb 03 11:15:21 x (/0 (*0)) = anything of nothing Feb 03 11:16:28 x / 0 = infinite. infinite * 0 = ? Feb 03 11:17:41 or let's just transform: (x * 0) / 0 Feb 03 11:18:07 = anything Feb 03 11:18:13 of nothing Feb 03 11:18:19 x/0 is not infinite Feb 03 11:18:27 x/0 is nothing Feb 03 11:18:46 it's infinite in MATLAB ;) Feb 03 11:18:51 lardman: then matlab sucks Feb 03 11:18:55 it should raise an exception Feb 03 11:18:57 hmm Feb 03 11:19:01 limes x/n with n->0 is infinite Feb 03 11:19:04 the *limit* from the right is +∞ Feb 03 11:19:16 and the limit from the left is -∞ Feb 03 11:19:26 that's why 1/0 is undefined Feb 03 11:19:52 heh, good point Feb 03 11:21:22 in ieee754 divisions, 1/(+0) == +∞ and 1/(-0) == -∞ Feb 03 11:21:30 MohammadAG: you meant +0 or -0? X-P Feb 03 11:21:57 heh Feb 03 11:22:13 that works in MATLAB too Feb 03 11:22:18 but that's because ieee754 floats/doubles don't qualify as a field :) Feb 03 11:22:26 * DocScrutinizer highfives kerio Feb 03 11:23:28 "x^(-1)" is defined on all elements except "0", the null element of the "+" Feb 03 11:23:45 where "x^(-1)", "0" and "+" are stuff Feb 03 11:24:08 DocScrutinizer, + :P Feb 03 11:25:25 you're lucky then. Otherwise I'd send you an invoice about ∞, minus 15% discount for immediate payment Feb 03 11:26:49 if we're talking about transfinite reals, then ε⁻¹=∞ and Feb 03 11:27:01 *and it's because they're defined as positive quantities Feb 03 11:27:05 * DocScrutinizer cackles Feb 03 11:27:27 but you still can't divide by zero!1!1 Feb 03 11:27:31 * DocScrutinizer sucks at math terribly Feb 03 11:29:29 MohammadAG: see? I toldya this donation button isn't really worth it. Too much overhead :-D Feb 03 11:29:57 (and it's still not really "infinite", it's just bigger than other real numbers) Feb 03 11:29:58 not to mention spam mail from paypal Feb 03 11:30:33 aleph-what? Feb 03 11:30:44 *real*, not natural Feb 03 11:30:58 and cardinal numbers only measure the cardinality of sets Feb 03 11:34:02 Ah - fun. Feb 03 11:34:06 Searching google. Feb 03 11:34:10 Cardinal (Catholicism) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopediaA cardinal is a senior (although they are very spunky) ecclesiastical official, usually a bishop, of the Catholic Church. They are collectively known as the ... Feb 03 11:34:32 hmm, I don't really understand what's א_0 Feb 03 11:34:33 Someones reverted it though. Feb 03 11:35:10 DocScrutinizer: it's, by definition, the cardinality of natural numbers Feb 03 11:36:37 the cardinality of a set is "how many natural numbers can i put this set in a bijective mapping with?" Feb 03 11:36:45 toldya I suck at math Feb 03 11:37:29 you must adore it though Feb 03 11:37:37 if your set can be put in a bijective mapping with all the natural numbers, its cardinality is aleph-null Feb 03 11:37:49 which i can't really write in unicode without a left-to-right forcer ._. Feb 03 11:38:44 DocScrutinizer: are there more integer numbers or natural numbers? Feb 03 11:40:24 hard to tell. I guess the simple answer "more natural" is not exactly correct as both aren't limited. Nevertheless natural is more unlimited as there's not en element in int for each element in natural Feb 03 11:42:08 hehe Feb 03 11:42:12 ok, imagine this sequence Feb 03 11:42:19 0 1 -1 2 -2 3 -3 4 -4 5 -5 Feb 03 11:42:25 etc. etc. Feb 03 11:42:30 can you get a network/serial console to the n900 via the usb cable? Feb 03 11:42:44 yes, sure Feb 03 11:42:53 ok, how? Feb 03 11:43:04 corecode: usb networking Feb 03 11:43:14 ~usb-networking Feb 03 11:43:14 extra, extra, read all about it, usb-networking is http://wiki.maemo.org/USB_networking, or http://wiki.maemo.org/N900_USB_networking Feb 03 11:43:22 DocScrutinizer: going ahead with that sequence will give you all the ints, right? Feb 03 11:43:32 yep Feb 03 11:43:37 beauty Feb 03 11:44:24 f(n) = int(n / 2) * (-1)**n Feb 03 11:44:38 give all the natural numbers to that function, and you'll get all the integers Feb 03 11:44:39 :) Feb 03 11:44:54 you can invert that Feb 03 11:45:09 (also make that int(n / 2 + 1) ) Feb 03 11:45:12 anyone willing to help me with qt ui? Feb 03 11:46:07 ZogG_w: Feb 03 11:46:09 ~ask Feb 03 11:46:10 Questions in the channel should be specific, informative, complete, concise, and on-topic. Don't ask if you can ask a question first. Don't ask if a person is there; just ask what you intended to ask them. Better questions more frequently yield better answers. We are all here voluntarily or against our will. Feb 03 11:47:37 DocScrutinizer: i did Feb 03 11:48:00 ~nuke DocScrutinizer Feb 03 11:48:00 * infobot prepares 100 missle silos, and targets them at DocScrutinizer ... B☢☢M! Feb 03 11:48:05 .. Feb 03 11:48:15 DocScrutinizer: A ∨ ¬A == ⊨, ∀ A Feb 03 11:48:17 I think he's asking for Qt coders to work on his UI DocScrutinizer Feb 03 11:48:29 alterego: \o/ Feb 03 11:48:46 those german people don't understand english =( Feb 03 11:48:59 duh, I thought he's asking for help right here and now Feb 03 11:49:07 all they know to try to conquer the world =) Feb 03 11:49:16 fail there too Feb 03 11:49:48 DocScrutinizer i'm thinking to make some small app for maemo, but i wouldn't be able to make a thing in Qt, tried creator and i'm too stupid =( Feb 03 11:50:06 corecode: that's why i said "to try" Feb 03 11:50:14 but we do love DocScrutinizer =) Feb 03 11:50:33 do we guys? com'on, don't upset him =\ Feb 03 11:50:39 i hate him! Feb 03 11:50:42 yeah don't upset me Feb 03 11:51:06 * ZogG_w gives LjL a good big joint Feb 03 11:51:09 People have made apps in python Feb 03 11:51:13 * LjL chills Feb 03 11:51:18 woot! python! Feb 03 11:51:30 ZogG_w: what's your app idea? Feb 03 11:51:32 Well. Moo. Feb 03 11:51:36 SpeedEvil: i want to try to do it in C, but i wouldn't be able to do the Ui Feb 03 11:51:44 vala is nice :) Feb 03 11:52:01 xkr47: brainfuck is nice lang too Feb 03 11:52:14 in a very different sense Feb 03 11:52:15 :) Feb 03 11:52:25 alterego: at the start just remote control for xmms2 Feb 03 11:52:36 nice Feb 03 11:52:47 Can't you use lirc for that? Feb 03 11:52:49 local/over local network Feb 03 11:52:50 you run xmms2 on n900 or ? Feb 03 11:52:59 if i would be able than bluetooth and so on Feb 03 11:53:14 xkr47: no, but there is port to xmms2 by ruskie Feb 03 11:53:24 Surely someone has an xmms plugin for lirc Feb 03 11:53:31 and there is abraca for maemo, not sure n8*0 or n900 Feb 03 11:53:40 iirc n8*0 Feb 03 11:53:48 xkr47, I run xmms2 on my n900 ;) Feb 03 11:53:51 nice Feb 03 11:54:01 i run ruskie on my n900 Feb 03 11:54:04 though only cmd line client and daemon Feb 03 11:54:04 lol Feb 03 11:54:09 i'm looking to buy an N810 (or N800, not yet 100% sure) as a present, would like feedback on how much of a terrible idea it is. unfortunately i don't know much about what the person wants, since i want it to be a surprise, but i chose the N810 because she said she fancied an ebook reader and also something like an ipod touch, and i thought the relatively big, transflective screen of the N810 could be a cheap compromise Feb 03 11:54:12 in soviet russia, n900 runs ruskie Feb 03 11:54:14 Or UPnP Feb 03 11:54:40 LjL: Screen is too small for ebook reading imho Feb 03 11:54:44 of course the pkg is an older version... but still does the job.. Feb 03 11:54:49 LjL: than u should buy wimax edition Feb 03 11:55:02 ZogG_w, and I only packaged it... the porting was done long ago by others of what there was needed to do Feb 03 11:55:08 lardman: i don't know, i use my phone as an ebook reader and it has a smaller screen... of course i guess it depends on the person a bit Feb 03 11:55:23 ruskie: you have opt and non-opt right? Feb 03 11:55:23 indeed, too small for me then :) Feb 03 11:55:26 * ruskie uses a 6" eink device for eboox reading... Feb 03 11:55:29