**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Fri Feb 25 02:59:57 2011 Feb 25 03:33:17 how the F is PR1.3 going to break compatibility with a single carrier? Feb 25 03:34:43 also don't you think it's strange there's not been a single report like that I heard of, since errr - when was it PR1.3 was published? Feb 25 03:36:23 if an update would render a quarter of the devices in a large area (like USA) inoperable, that for sure would make some more noise Feb 25 03:39:26 anyone in the US using a N900 is either going to be using t-mobile or using AT&T GSM Feb 25 03:39:36 since AFAIK the N900 doesn't do AT&T 3G Feb 25 03:59:40 Hello guys Feb 25 04:00:32 hey Feb 25 04:00:55 So... I never thought I'd ever be asking this, but..: I'm looking for a cheapish Android phone that's easily rooted and works on the T-mobile network. Used is acceptable, hardware keyboard required. Any suggestions? Feb 25 04:01:05 (Mind, not for me - I'm keeping my N900) Feb 25 04:01:44 that is heresy Feb 25 04:03:04 Yea yea... I know. :( Hopefully, though, a rooted android phone won't be -too- bad - I'm intending to give it to my mom so she can check emails and such on-the-go. Feb 25 04:04:30 maybe webos will be the best community supported hackable going forward Feb 25 04:04:40 If it wasnt for the hw keyboard requirement I would suggest the Nexus One Feb 25 04:04:44 or the Nexus S Feb 25 04:04:52 ... My dad bought a freaking Nokia 5230 when I told him that it would be cool if he had a phone with wlan so I could call him directly by skype.... Feb 25 04:05:06 Needless to say that phone doesn't' have a wlan Feb 25 04:05:12 my main phone is android and it bugs me to no end... pathetic ui Feb 25 04:05:28 all the Android phones that work with t-mobile and have hw keyboard cant be rooted easily Feb 25 04:06:36 also what's the use of roting for your mom? Feb 25 04:06:42 rooting* Feb 25 04:07:14 webos or gasp, ios would be what I chose for grandma Feb 25 04:07:27 fsckng winmo6 Feb 25 04:08:38 kinda "looks like a computer" UI Feb 25 04:09:14 for M$ tainted techno-ignorants Feb 25 04:10:28 heh, I got a Samsung OMNIA here, almost unused. You can get it for... err... probably you get one cheaper next corner Feb 25 04:16:33 dh, hw kbd. So you might be interested in my Eten GloFiish M800 - but that's a real collector's item ;-D Feb 25 04:17:27 by the way Feb 25 04:17:33 I just noticed the N8 has all 5 bands in UMTS Feb 25 04:17:43 that's nice hardware, but terrible software Feb 25 04:18:01 errr, all 5 bands? Feb 25 04:18:07 yes Feb 25 04:18:14 850/900/1700/1900/2100 Feb 25 04:18:20 in UMTS Feb 25 04:18:46 3G Network HSDPA 850 / 900 / 1700 / 1900 / 2100 Feb 25 04:18:53 http://www.gsmarena.com/nokia_n8-3252.php Feb 25 04:19:14 and it's quad band in GSM as expected Feb 25 04:19:24 there should be a way to put Maemo in that Feb 25 04:19:25 :( Feb 25 04:20:23 meh, you're talking about that USA rubbish Feb 25 04:20:44 what exactly is rubbish? the phone? or the bands? hehe Feb 25 04:20:47 or the country? Feb 25 04:20:49 I really wonder how they can call that UMTS Feb 25 04:21:02 why not Feb 25 04:21:04 #2, mayber #3 Feb 25 04:21:22 I wrote a helper app that brings geolocation api to maemo, anyone interested in helping to polish it a bit Feb 25 04:21:31 I'm not in the USA but at least in the same continent. I get 3 Mbps with my phone in 3G, not bad Feb 25 04:22:26 USA was idiotic enough to use GSM bands for UMTS Feb 25 04:23:05 then talk about Europe using 900 MHz for voice AND for 3G ? Feb 25 04:23:11 that was worse! Feb 25 04:24:14 Australia has a wierd mix of bands, we have 900MHz and 1800MHz for GSM across 3 networks Feb 25 04:24:35 plus we have one network using 850MHz UMTS and possibly also 2100MHz UMTS (not sure) Feb 25 04:24:40 and another network using 900/2100 Feb 25 04:24:47 well lemme talk you about my ISP Feb 25 04:24:52 he started using GSM 900 as voice Feb 25 04:25:02 and a third network currently running 900/2100 and about to launch UMTS 0n 850 Feb 25 04:25:04 when 3G came, the also installed 3G in 900 MHz, like European ISPs Feb 25 04:25:15 then there's not enough spectrum, and had to move voice from 900 to 1800 MHz Feb 25 04:25:25 but there were phones 900 MHz only, they had to change those for free Feb 25 04:25:31 it was a total mess, it still is Feb 25 04:25:44 http://www.mobileworldlive.com/maps/network.php?cid=280&cname=United States Feb 25 04:25:51 * Sc0rpius clicks Feb 25 04:25:57 Find me a country where the allocation of spectrum for mobile telephony ISNT a nightmare Feb 25 04:26:07 Every country has a mess of different spectrum Feb 25 04:26:12 hehe that's true Feb 25 04:27:11 now we have one carrier launching LTE on IIRC 850MHz Feb 25 04:31:35 http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_Mobile_Telecommunications_System#Duplex-Verfahren http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_System_for_Mobile_Communications#Verwendete_Frequenzen Feb 25 04:31:52 the digits are english ;-) Feb 25 04:32:06 the ETLAs as well Feb 25 04:35:32 so at least in Germany we got UMTS uplink on 1900 (not same as GSM) and downlink 2100 Feb 25 04:35:42 oh that's nice Feb 25 04:35:43 no conflicts with GSM Feb 25 04:36:20 and why your phone works Feb 25 04:36:21 GSM here is at 900 and 1800 Feb 25 04:36:24 N900 is 900/2100 Feb 25 04:37:11 while USA is using 850 1900 and whatnot else, for whatever the particular carrier likes Feb 25 04:37:18 heh Feb 25 04:39:05 see mobileworldlive link above, even AT&T is using same freq for UMTS in USA and for GSM in Costa Rica Feb 25 04:39:24 err Puerto Rico Feb 25 04:39:48 Sc0rpius, you imply 3g has no voice ;p Feb 25 04:40:07 I do? what makes you think that? Feb 25 04:40:15 oops Feb 25 04:40:28 * ShadowJK <3 umts 900 Feb 25 04:40:37 I have UMTS 900 in my carrier Feb 25 04:40:45 and GSM was moved to 1800 Feb 25 04:40:51 but it was initialliy at 900 Feb 25 04:41:07 GSM is and stays at 900 Feb 25 04:41:13 in your case Feb 25 04:41:35 it's your carrier that invented some new rubbish, and calls that UMTS now Feb 25 04:41:38 because your carrier was smart enough to get the 2100MHz spectrum Feb 25 04:41:52 gsm+umts at 900, gsm+lte at 1800, umts at 2100 Feb 25 04:41:56 here at least :P Feb 25 04:42:12 and now they want lte at 800 or 450 or something too Feb 25 04:42:22 450 currently used by flash-ofdm Feb 25 04:42:36 In my country 2100 MHz is used by the army and it's not open Feb 25 04:42:58 so carriers use UMTS @ 900 or 1900 depending on the carrier Feb 25 04:43:03 that's a lame excuse Feb 25 04:43:14 and GSM in 850/900/1800/1900 again depending on the carrier Feb 25 04:43:21 They started umts on 2100 here, it was terrible. The short range of 2100 made it suck so hard :) Feb 25 04:43:37 yeah UMTS @ 900 is the best Feb 25 04:43:42 because of the long range Feb 25 04:44:08 yeah, UMTS for the poor Feb 25 04:44:30 I get nice speed, as I said, 3 Mbps and it's stable Feb 25 04:44:47 I'm happy with it :) Feb 25 04:44:53 and my N900 last 2 whole days at 3G Feb 25 04:44:56 (battery) Feb 25 04:45:17 * ShadowJK downloaded at 800kbyte/s yesterday, 9-10km from the base station :) Feb 25 04:45:20 my english is getting worse everyday instead of improving Feb 25 04:45:27 nice ShadowJK Feb 25 04:45:29 carrier needs only 1/10 of BTS, and who cares about battery of MTs is empty 4 times faster, nobody can afford using UMTS for long anyway Feb 25 04:46:03 Looks like carriers aren't that interested in upgrading my local tower though :( Feb 25 04:46:16 Maybe 50 people live within its range ;p Feb 25 04:48:22 just annoying every phone owner on this world has to pay 3 bucks extra for USA idiocy of using bands nonstandard Feb 25 04:50:09 DocScrutinizer: Tell me about it. Not only that, but they make sure to use different bands for each carrier, making it hard to switch between carriers :\ Feb 25 04:50:28 that's all intentional Feb 25 04:50:39 Of course. Feb 25 04:50:41 carefully thought and planned Feb 25 04:51:28 Doesn't make it -right-. IMHO, the FCC should step in and force them to be inter-operable; I mean, they said that Jailbreaking is legal, so this would be the next logical step Feb 25 04:52:06 FCC insisted on the 850/1900 scheme for GSM in USA Feb 25 04:52:33 That explains why AT&T/T-mobile are compatible at least. Feb 25 04:52:58 They should have insisted on a uniform band for UMTS in the US also Feb 25 04:53:22 instead of the wierd 1700 band t-mobile are using Feb 25 04:53:42 and nobody can tell me military isn't ale to tune their walkietalkies and radars down from 900 to 850 Feb 25 04:54:22 Mind, the military isn't gonna be on the same band as civilian stuff - for good reason Feb 25 04:55:00 in USA they are on a band that 's civilian in rest of this world Feb 25 04:55:37 I can't see any other rationale for the 850/1900 instead of 900/1800 in USA Feb 25 04:56:14 well, except the secret *real* reasons to differ from anybody else Feb 25 04:56:17 IIRC, I read something about that - US and who was it - England perhaps? - setup opposite bands for military/cvilian. Feb 25 04:56:32 So whichever the US had, the other country had em backwards Feb 25 04:56:34 which is more about economics than about military Feb 25 04:57:22 900/1800 is pretty much worldwide standard Feb 25 04:57:32 for GSM Feb 25 04:57:43 Of course, these days it should be possible to just make a super-dodeka-band chip that covers every frequency and transmission scheme ever used. Feb 25 04:58:21 but it's almost impossible to create a decent antenna for that Feb 25 04:59:37 Could it be possible to make an all-in-one device that handles Bluetooth and Wifi as well, and uses say four antennas to handle it? Feb 25 05:00:02 why do you think the worldwide standard is 900/2*900 - it's just do facilitate antenna design Feb 25 05:00:53 Yea, I suppose Feb 25 05:01:20 I dunno... is the new LTE 4G or w/e going to all be on the same band? Feb 25 05:01:43 afaik LTE is backwards compatible Feb 25 05:02:15 not sure about it though Feb 25 05:02:44 i.e. LTE == UMTS+++ Feb 25 05:03:02 any maemo folks going to SCALE this weekend in LA? Feb 25 05:04:47 and the whole "cognitive radio" thing :/ Feb 25 05:05:17 Hm... Y'know, the -other- option would be to simply build the radio/antenna into a sim-card-like-device - You'd then be able to use almost any phone with any carrier, in any region Feb 25 05:05:34 Course, it'll never happen - Too easy to change carriers :\ Feb 25 05:05:56 like a miniature USB hsdpa modem, except not usb, and not necessarily hsdpa ;p Feb 25 05:06:02 Yea Feb 25 05:07:10 It's probably going the other way though Feb 25 05:07:13 Heck, make it SD-card compatible; then you can use it in all sorts of current devices and applications Feb 25 05:07:17 apple is working on removing the sim card ;p Feb 25 05:07:47 Oh, I'm sure. :\ Then, -no- way to change carriers. Lock down hooray! Feb 25 05:20:16 I have to say once more that the n900's just about the most awesome phone ever. I was able to just download a webm file off youtube, drop it on my n900, and play it with the built in media player quite nicely. Feb 25 05:36:02 huh, I don't think that's supposed to work Feb 25 05:43:04 ShadowJK: ? Feb 25 05:43:28 (Mind, I installed decoders-support or w/e earlier) Feb 25 05:52:24 pupnizzzz: http://people.openmoko.org/joerg/N810-disassembly/ Feb 25 06:01:25 morn Feb 25 06:03:14 https://garage.maemo.org/builder/fremantle/libnet-smtp-ssl-perl_1.01-2maemo1/i386.build.log.FAILED.txt ideas? Feb 25 06:10:12 the funniest thing is that it fails in i386 target Feb 25 06:19:44 slonopotamus: probably division by zero Feb 25 06:20:23 villager: thanks, Captain :) Feb 25 06:21:41 slonopotamus: don't know enough perl to look at why, though... (nor do I want to know perl)... was just implying that division by zero is likely to happen on i386 also... Feb 25 06:31:44 villager: okay, that was scratchbox, again Feb 25 06:31:49 SBOX_REDIRECT_IGNORE ftw! Feb 25 06:57:24 Why don't firefoz have an icon? Feb 25 08:23:38 DocScrutinizer: thanks - as i suspected the resonant chamber is also larger Feb 25 08:30:10 http://i.imgur.com/3S6ya.jpg heheh sfw Feb 25 08:39:38 Feb 25 08:39:47 Feb 25 08:39:53 how much? Feb 25 09:02:31 * jonwil is still going nowhere with his N900 work Feb 25 09:05:54 jonwil: relax, have a coffee, and do something more productive :P Feb 25 09:06:33 I am just frustrated that the features I want on my N900 are not possible, like per-contact ringtones or cell broadcast SMS Feb 25 09:07:15 per-contact ringtones would be appreciated by many people for sure Feb 25 09:07:52 hmmm, before I abandon that idea completly, firstly I need to ID which binary reads the ringtone value from the config and plays it Feb 25 09:08:59 good plan Feb 25 09:09:05 There are a few good technical reasons why contact ringtones aren't available tbh Feb 25 09:09:21 what technical reasons would that be? Feb 25 09:09:41 Ringtones are stored as wavs (i think in rootfs) Feb 25 09:09:50 So space requirements are quite large .. Feb 25 09:10:00 other phones can do it Feb 25 09:10:03 keep it compressed Feb 25 09:10:08 in easy decompressible format Feb 25 09:10:13 and mlock decoders Feb 25 09:10:15 jacekowski: other phones aren't the N900 Feb 25 09:10:17 single decoder* Feb 25 09:10:29 well let me look up which binaries are involved in playing ringtones Feb 25 09:10:35 and see how fesable it is to do some changes Feb 25 09:11:04 I'm not saying it's not possible, I can think of several ways to do it, it's just pa performance is somewhat delicate already in regards to calls Feb 25 09:12:06 if it wasnt for those damn closed-source PulseAudio modules, it would be much easier to solve some of those problems IMO Feb 25 09:12:16 but all the "good bits" are closed source :( Feb 25 09:12:20 one way would be to make the ke the ringtone a named pipe, then listen on dbus for the incoming call setup and create a gst pipeline to decompress and appsink out to the pipe. Feb 25 09:13:28 alterego, considering that the ringtone can also be $random file anywhere I don't really see a point... Feb 25 09:13:40 Out of curiosity, couldn't we just run say 'mplayer /path/to/ringtone' from a script when there's an incoming call which meets certain criteria? Surely the phone-number's available via Dbus Feb 25 09:13:43 in that technical reason Feb 25 09:14:00 RobbieThe1st: yes, in theory :) Feb 25 09:14:23 'course, if we need wavs, just stick em in MyDocs - Plenty of space there! Feb 25 09:14:26 That is also an interesting idea Feb 25 09:14:37 my ringtone is mp3 Feb 25 09:14:40 Once I find out which binary plays the rintone, I will know how easy it will be to do something about it Feb 25 09:14:46 so don't really see why it needs to be wav or where you got that idea Feb 25 09:14:53 Problem is I think the PA policy will mute that line and use the dialer .. Feb 25 09:15:13 mine is MP3 but the phone copied it as wav Feb 25 09:15:17 and copied it somewhere Feb 25 09:15:22 ruskie: because it -is- wav, generated from whatever file you select. Feb 25 09:15:26 ruskie: mp3 gets decompressed to (essentially) a .wav file before being played. a .wav file is raw audio data mostly Feb 25 09:15:37 first thing Feb 25 09:15:43 get rid of pulseshit Feb 25 09:15:55 alterego, really? where does it store it? Feb 25 09:15:58 I doubt you could drop PulseAudio and not break the system completly Feb 25 09:16:31 RobbieThe1st: have you seen how long it takes for mplayer to load and read something from mydocs if you have something heavy running Feb 25 09:16:38 ruskie: rootfs (i think) it's for performance. Feb 25 09:16:47 RobbieThe1st, that sounds broken... if it does before playing it... Feb 25 09:16:50 alterego, where exactly? Feb 25 09:16:58 ruskie: it's not broken Feb 25 09:16:59 ruskie: I don't know, google :P Feb 25 09:17:09 so you just assume then that this is so? Feb 25 09:17:14 no Feb 25 09:17:18 that file is there Feb 25 09:17:21 I know it's a wav. Feb 25 09:17:23 ruskie: No, I mean simply that's how things work on -any- system. The actual DAC takes raw binary data. Feb 25 09:17:26 yet nobody knows where... Feb 25 09:17:29 I just don't recall where it is .. Feb 25 09:17:31 ruskie: we know where Feb 25 09:17:55 ruskie: mp3 is compressed. Whether it gets decoded by a specific chip, or on the CPU, it still gets decoded to raw data before being played. Feb 25 09:17:57 And if you're interested, fucking google. Feb 25 09:18:11 * alterego goes for a shower Feb 25 09:18:13 aplay snd.wav is faster loading than mplayer for e.g. Feb 25 09:18:18 but the named pipe idea is clever Feb 25 09:18:28 no Feb 25 09:18:31 it doesn't work Feb 25 09:18:34 jacekowski: Yea, I suppose. But that's as much a problem of the IO stuff than anything else Feb 25 09:18:34 somebody tried it Feb 25 09:18:42 RobbieThe1st: io and cpu Feb 25 09:19:13 jacekowski: really? oh :( Feb 25 09:19:18 that's why if we would recompress stuff as mp3 and have decoder running at -19 nice Feb 25 09:19:30 and mlock it Feb 25 09:19:35 we could do it Feb 25 09:19:35 I was thinking you'd probably have to always make sure there was data available Feb 25 09:19:37 jonwil is the only guy actually not-bullshitting atm :) Feb 25 09:19:45 jacekowski: I say IO's more of a problem cause we have nice(etc) working to prioritize. With the stock n900, I don't think we have anything like that for io Feb 25 09:19:52 ionice is - afaik - not installed Feb 25 09:20:14 the ringtones are stored in /home/user/.local/share/sounds Feb 25 09:20:19 thats where the .wavs go Feb 25 09:20:20 pupnik: hey! I'm just telling it like it is :P Feb 25 09:20:22 as far as i remember nice -19 sets io prio quite high Feb 25 09:20:52 The ringtone is set in a config file by the tag ringing.alert.tone Feb 25 09:20:53 but ionice isnt'a problem Feb 25 09:20:59 which is referenced in 4 binaries Feb 25 09:20:59 it's single syscall Feb 25 09:21:05 profiles control panel Feb 25 09:21:21 make that 3 Feb 25 09:21:24 hildon plugins notify sv Feb 25 09:21:28 hmm interesting solution on how to silence ringtones... Feb 25 09:21:33 and mediaplayer.launch Feb 25 09:21:36 it actually symlinks them to silence.wav Feb 25 09:22:13 and from what I can tell it's all kept on the emmc so don't really see a technical limitation for size... Feb 25 09:22:21 you know the 'rotating lady' illusion - now you can switch it back and forth at will... http://imgur.com/gallery/2LGKQ (OT) Feb 25 09:22:28 Hm... Could we setup a script that - upon recieving a call - basically "pauses" all of user's applications, then plays the ringtone? By preventing other stuff from doing IO/using CPU, we ought to be able to get good performance for that Feb 25 09:22:29 ruskie: fair enough Feb 25 09:23:07 ruskie: I presumed it was on root, if it's emmc than that does reduce the burden Feb 25 09:23:33 It may be possible to symlink different tones before the call pipeline is setup. Feb 25 09:23:37 yeah Feb 25 09:23:40 was thinking about that Feb 25 09:23:49 since that's how ringtoned seems to actually work for silent profile as well Feb 25 09:23:59 There's a lot of dbus traffic whilst incoming calls are setup Feb 25 09:24:08 so /home/user is on emmc? Feb 25 09:24:11 way before the ringtone gets started Feb 25 09:24:16 jonwil: yes Feb 25 09:24:35 Anyhow, shower time, bbiab Feb 25 09:24:43 it's part of /home where also /home/opt lives Feb 25 09:24:45 The easy solution is to either ask Nokia for the source code to Hildon-plugins-notify-sv or to reverse engineer Hildon-plugins-notify-sv ourself and make a functional replacement Feb 25 09:25:01 since thats where the ringtones come from Feb 25 09:25:11 the big chunk of space is /home/user/MyDocs which is a separate mount Feb 25 09:25:26 so basically a lot of stuff in /home/user will reduce /opt space as well Feb 25 09:26:05 /home/user only has 2GB so yeah its shared between the two (/home/user and /opt) Feb 25 09:26:08 still don't get it why nokia then provides their own tunes in .aac if in the end it needs to be cached as wav... Feb 25 09:26:10 ^^ Feb 25 09:26:30 ruskie: Cause that's how things work at the chip-level? Feb 25 09:26:46 RobbieThe1st, you're not feeding the chip the raw encoded file Feb 25 09:26:59 you do: decoder > devicetooutputto Feb 25 09:27:10 you know.. like any other system does it on the pc mac etc... Feb 25 09:27:12 Exactly. You're decoding it(to wav) before outputting it Feb 25 09:27:20 RobbieThe1st, no in this case it's PRE-decoded as wav Feb 25 09:27:34 it's not let's take the mp3... and decode it just now to the audio device Feb 25 09:27:35 To save CPU time I'd imagine Feb 25 09:28:08 They probably intended it to be decoding on the fly... But ran into performance issues and just cached it Feb 25 09:29:11 anyone know anything about libplayback or libprofile or profiled or profile-data? Feb 25 09:29:52 damn, looks like libplayback (whatever that is) is closed source with no -dev package Feb 25 09:29:58 oh wait there IS a -dev package Feb 25 09:30:01 GOOD Feb 25 09:30:33 looks like every package that Hildon-plugins-notify-sv depends on has a -dev package at the very least Feb 25 09:30:45 which will help with cloning it Feb 25 09:30:56 the fact that it has a nokia-binaries x86 package also helps Feb 25 09:31:56 as x86 is easier to reverse engineer than ARM Feb 25 09:32:12 and its high enough up the OS stack that its unlikely to contain different code for x86 vs ARM Feb 25 09:34:25 time to warm up the linux box and pull the plugin from my SDK install Feb 25 09:41:15 Lets see how hard this is going to be to clone Feb 25 09:51:27 DocScrutinizer51: jonwil: Did you manage a wiki page, btw? Feb 25 09:51:37 for what? dialer? no Feb 25 09:51:53 DocScrutinizer51: jonwil: (regarding the closed stuff and who/what/why wanted it open) Feb 25 09:51:55 jonwil, what are the advantages of talking to oneself? Feb 25 09:52:25 I did come up with that wiki btw Feb 25 09:52:40 tempted to file a bug (and add a wiki entry Feb 25 09:52:41 hey does the region-specific firmware come with local language support? Feb 25 09:52:49 related to custom ringtones Feb 25 09:53:07 on the n900, tha is Feb 25 09:53:11 *that Feb 25 09:53:57 jonwil: URL for the wiki page? Feb 25 09:54:03 * Jaffa would like to send it to Nokia Feb 25 09:54:08 bergie: ping Feb 25 09:54:15 http://wiki.maemo.org/index.php?title=Open_development/Why_the_closed_packages#List_of_outstanding_requests_that_are_still_relevant Feb 25 09:54:29 jonwil: thanks Feb 25 09:54:35 Let me handle this custom ringtone thing first before you send it Feb 25 09:54:48 let me see if there is already a request for the feature Feb 25 09:55:43 unlike, say, rtcom-dialer-ui, I dont think libhildon-plugins-notify-sv is out of the relms of possiblity for Nokia to open source Feb 25 09:56:50 no bug exists, let me file one Feb 25 10:02:04 < crashanddie> jonwil, what are the advantages of talking to oneself? Feb 25 10:02:18 That way I always know I'm talking to a complete asshole. :-) Feb 25 10:07:21 whats the name of the app that lets you edit contacts? Feb 25 10:08:55 jonwil: "Contacts"? Feb 25 10:09:07 found it, the package is osso-addressbook Feb 25 10:13:34 ok, there are too many closed-source back end libraries and other things for it to be possible to store the per-contact ring-tone information with other contact details in the address book Feb 25 10:13:52 plus I cant see Nokia open sourcing the address book backends anymore than they already have Feb 25 10:13:55 for all sorts of reasons Feb 25 10:19:04 jonwil: The plugin API, or the use of a dummy "account" might make it work? Feb 25 10:19:48 Morning Feb 25 10:21:25 a little gui question ... how to display a list of accounts (which is a set of a 6 parameters ... login, password, host, ... ) in a settings dialog. Put them all in a editable qtreeview ? or did you have better idea ? Feb 25 10:21:39 N900 for 535USD, new? Feb 25 10:21:55 Good deal? Feb 25 10:22:05 can I get "Angry Birds" for free? Feb 25 10:22:21 I belive there is a free demo with 10 levels Feb 25 10:22:40 lolcat, erm.. I can get new full 2 year warranty for 180eur ;) Feb 25 10:23:17 did your n900 screen got scratches? Feb 25 10:23:52 jatt: Mine had scratches when I got it Feb 25 10:24:06 wow Feb 25 10:24:07 ruskie: A warranty, I am talking of the phone Feb 25 10:24:14 I meant after using it for a while Feb 25 10:24:18 jatt: Got it cheap, display model Feb 25 10:24:26 I think is unavoidable? Feb 25 10:24:56 oh, and another question, can you clean the screen with the same stuff you clean laptop screens? Feb 25 10:25:12 I clean my screen with the stuff I clean windows with Feb 25 10:25:16 lol Feb 25 10:25:27 I mean the n900 screen Feb 25 10:26:32 lolcat, I meant a n900 with a full 2 year warranty Feb 25 10:28:30 jatt: Me too Feb 25 10:28:36 I clean everything with this shit Feb 25 10:28:40 Jif Window cleaner Feb 25 10:28:55 ok, bug 11983 filed Feb 25 10:28:57 Bug https://bugs.maemo.org/11983 Open source libhildon-plugins-notify-sv Feb 25 10:29:45 I dont know if per-contact ringtones will be possible without the dialer and SMS app source (which is what talks to this code) Feb 25 10:29:52 but its worth looking into Feb 25 10:30:41 oh wait I guess our new ringtone thing could register with telepathy and mission-control to pick up all incoming calls and SMSs Feb 25 10:30:47 including skype etc Feb 25 10:33:28 does anyone know how to get sound from flite on command line? Feb 25 10:33:30 ruskie: How can you get that cheap? Feb 25 10:34:24 lolcat, second hand... ppl buy it with their contract for 180eur then flog it to others from 180-300eur Feb 25 10:34:54 but yeah... new not used original everything Feb 25 10:34:57 including warranty Feb 25 10:35:08 Hmm Feb 25 10:35:20 I need a drunkphone! Feb 25 10:35:35 I'm planing on buying one for somewhere in the 180-300 area this year Feb 25 10:36:26 Jaffa: http://wiki.maemo.org/Open_development/Why_the_closed_packages#List_of_outstanding_requests_that_are_still_relevant is updated Feb 25 10:36:32 with the ringtone thing Feb 25 10:36:38 ruskie: used worn units sell for 200-260 here Feb 25 10:37:18 pupnik, well here they are new in box... Feb 25 10:37:37 note 180 is the cheapest I saw(and that's for how much they were being flogged by the cellcos) Feb 25 10:37:59 in .ru? Feb 25 10:38:02 slovenia Feb 25 10:38:09 don't assume based on nick Feb 25 10:38:27 jonwil: Thanks Feb 25 10:39:04 well not really suprised that the 180 eur deal has been sold already Feb 25 10:40:12 the next one up after that is 200 for an 8month used... 260 for a new in box with everything Feb 25 10:40:42 533eur is the full asking price in store Feb 25 10:40:45 I wonder if it'll be cheaper if I buy one from one of the asian countries, no I'm not thinking about clones but maybe making a deal with the shop owner to buy one and get one free or the second one at some discount knowing that N900 didn't sell like hotcakes :D Feb 25 10:42:07 400eur is the cheapest new from store I can see... Feb 25 10:42:26 and that is on sale Feb 25 10:42:40 the thing is a mini computer the price is fair Feb 25 10:44:49 the smartphones these days can also function as a mini computer, plus some of them have better hardware than that of found in N900. Feb 25 10:45:16 Jaffa: So you are going to push those requests to the right people at Nokia and see if they are possible? Feb 25 10:45:30 Is there anything on that list that doesnt sound like its possible? Feb 25 10:50:25 ruskie: That is around 535USD Feb 25 10:50:43 what is? Feb 25 10:50:47 400 eur? Feb 25 10:50:49 Yes Feb 25 10:51:03 400 Euros = 552.96 U.S. dollars Feb 25 10:51:20 I guess you could call it a deal Feb 25 10:51:29 Mine has 5 years warranty! Feb 25 10:52:55 not manufacturers probably Feb 25 10:53:14 Country Feb 25 10:53:17 Wich is bether Feb 25 10:53:30 They have two attempts to fix an error Feb 25 10:53:43 if it breaks again I get a refund Feb 25 10:54:09 erm country? Feb 25 10:54:19 Norway Feb 25 10:54:21 also note Which != Wich Feb 25 10:57:58 Wich wich is wich? Feb 25 10:58:17 someone actually uses wich as his nickname and tends to point outh that which != wich Feb 25 10:59:00 wich is actually a variant of wick Feb 25 11:00:06 while which is what you are looking for Feb 25 11:00:16 Feb 25 11:00:26 Wick? Feb 25 11:01:08 www.dict.org Feb 25 11:01:10 helps ;) Feb 25 11:04:44 * ruskie reintegrated his old n95 as an alarm solution... seems to be having more effect now... Feb 25 11:09:16 What I really want is USB support Feb 25 11:11:11 you mean OTG? Feb 25 11:12:36 OTG is not USB host. Feb 25 11:13:33 USB host is female, USB OTG is transexual. Feb 25 11:15:00 kinky Feb 25 11:16:22 So I suppose the analogy would complete and make the n900 a girl that claimed not to be able to take her strap-on off. Feb 25 11:18:28 rotfl Feb 25 11:18:45 thing is that not many people want to deal with trans Feb 25 11:46:53 you had problems with the micro usb connector? I read it breaks Feb 25 11:47:41 http://www.theregister.co.uk/2011/02/25/microsoft_mozilla_do_not_track/ <-- hmm Feb 25 11:58:53 The barman says, "We don't serve time travellers in here." Feb 25 11:58:54 A time traveller walks into a bar. Feb 25 11:59:08 hehe Feb 25 11:59:24 i think us maemo guys were right in 2006. Nokia needed to make maemo big, and fast Feb 25 12:00:12 speaking of time travel.. Feb 25 12:00:43 i don't know, i'm not fond of something half open-source half not, but what's for sure is you can't make a half-assed OS, put it on one or two models targeted at geeks, and expect it to become great all by itself Feb 25 12:01:37 hi, Feb 25 12:01:51 nokia should have based as much as it could on open source Feb 25 12:02:15 seen the maemo5 look+feel for N800? it could be running on 400mhz omap2 devices and compete in the featurephone segment today Feb 25 12:02:17 the only differentiator should have been at the user interface... Feb 25 12:03:04 question: for a second hand n900, i would know if it's difficult to unlock? Feb 25 12:03:12 niala1, there is no unlocking Feb 25 12:03:13 it's not locked Feb 25 12:03:14 can i do it for free? Feb 25 12:03:43 there is no unlocking Feb 25 12:03:44 ok ty. now just wait for the seller. grmpf :) Feb 25 12:03:52 ruskie: yes, there is Feb 25 12:04:02 Venemo_N900, I'm assuming he meant operator locking Feb 25 12:04:16 yes operator locking Feb 25 12:04:20 ruskie: yeah. N900s can be operator locked Feb 25 12:04:36 well I would assume any GSM device can be operator locked Feb 25 12:04:37 http://www.theregister.co.uk/2010/10/14/nokia_dilbert/ Feb 25 12:04:43 change the sim, done Feb 25 12:04:46 i don't know maybe it's not, i havent see it now Feb 25 12:04:53 but just because it can be... doesn't mean it will be Feb 25 12:04:55 change operator, done Feb 25 12:04:58 this is why there is an option to "enter code to remove operator lock" in the settings app menu Feb 25 12:05:04 I haven't seen an operator locked n900 atm... Feb 25 12:05:12 Venemo_N900, there is? Feb 25 12:05:19 where??? Feb 25 12:05:56 ruskie: settings app, app menu Feb 25 12:05:56 I don't see it... and I would assume it would be visible... Feb 25 12:06:00 ruskie: n900 can be operator locked Feb 25 12:06:03 ruskie: and some are locked Feb 25 12:06:14 I note. so, i suppose it's possible? Feb 25 12:06:19 ruskie: tap the titlebar of the settings app Feb 25 12:06:26 ruskie: like any other rapuyama, rap3g, and similiar phones Feb 25 12:06:37 jacekowski, as said... I would assume any GSM device can be locked Feb 25 12:06:47 Venemo_N900, hmm... Enter SIM unlock code ? Feb 25 12:07:14 the phone cannot be locked, the sim card can be locked Feb 25 12:07:14 ok if it's possible to lock it's possible to unlock. or i must verify that first? Feb 25 12:07:33 i have my own sim Feb 25 12:08:11 just type your password Feb 25 12:08:16 jatt: no Feb 25 12:08:19 to unlock it Feb 25 12:08:19 timeless_w7ip, ping Feb 25 12:08:19 jatt: phone can be locked Feb 25 12:08:23 or timeless_office Feb 25 12:08:34 what? where Feb 25 12:08:39 jatt: by operator Feb 25 12:08:51 ruskie: see topleft button in http://i51.tinypic.com/anlwug.png Feb 25 12:08:56 has anybody ever got xbmc-potato to work? Feb 25 12:09:01 niala1: no public unlock is available at the moment Feb 25 12:09:12 Venemo_N900, ahh I have community translation installed... Feb 25 12:09:17 odd that it calls it SIM unlock Feb 25 12:09:34 ruskie: because it's called simlock Feb 25 12:09:44 ruskie: it locks phone to sims from specific operator Feb 25 12:09:44 jacekowski: so if it's locked i musn't buy it ? Feb 25 12:09:50 niala1: yeah Feb 25 12:09:58 niala1: but it's very unlikely that it's locked Feb 25 12:11:44 I'll burn a candle then to the god of Gsm Feb 25 12:12:04 thank you all Feb 25 12:12:38 niala1: try it with your sim before buying Feb 25 12:13:31 yep i must think of bring them Feb 25 12:22:46 Was the N900 ever sold locked to a particular carrier? Feb 25 12:23:29 jonwil: I can't account for every carrier that sold it, but I'd say it's likely Feb 25 12:23:49 That depends on whether the N900 supports the feature in the first place Feb 25 12:24:00 I havent seen any evidence that it does Feb 25 12:24:34 I thought they didn't want to sell it because you can do to much with it. Feb 25 12:24:39 jonwil: see http://i51.tinypic.com/anlwug.png or read scrollback Feb 25 12:24:52 ok, so it does Feb 25 12:25:05 jonwil: why would there be a "remove operator lock" feature if it didn't support operator locks? Feb 25 12:27:07 I have this option on my device, too. But it definitelly has no SIM-lock. Feb 25 12:27:57 yeah, mine doesn't either Feb 25 12:28:20 from what I understand the only limitation for operators was no custom firmware Feb 25 12:28:45 and I'm assuming SIM locking is part of the GSM stack so that's where the locking/unlocking would actually happen Feb 25 12:32:24 hu ... i ve this menu too Feb 25 12:33:54 well I'm 100% sure mine isn't locked since I actually bought it direct from the nokia distributor here Feb 25 12:34:07 long long before any cellco here had any interest in the device Feb 25 12:34:14 yeah Feb 25 12:34:17 took them like 9 months or so to even start offering it Feb 25 12:34:40 I bought mine used from an auction site a year ago Feb 25 12:34:57 Venemo_N900: How much? Feb 25 12:35:07 I can't get windows 95 to boot properly Feb 25 12:35:25 lolcat: 120 000 HUF, a year ago Feb 25 12:36:09 HUF never heard of that kind of money Feb 25 12:36:18 hungarian Feb 25 12:36:22 forint iirc Feb 25 12:36:51 correct Feb 25 12:36:52 440 eur or so Feb 25 12:38:02 it was around 440 EUR Feb 25 12:38:13 sorry, o Feb 25 12:38:26 just calculated it with a conversion site Feb 25 12:38:30 it was 420 eur Feb 25 12:38:41 fairly reasonable price a year ago Feb 25 12:38:57 My N900 just shut down without a reason :( Feb 25 12:39:03 overclocked? Feb 25 12:39:20 Maybe a little... Feb 25 12:39:23 hehe Feb 25 12:40:00 Good I got that offer for a new N900 then xD Feb 25 12:40:46 uh ... nokia.fr didn't sell anymore n900 Feb 25 12:40:58 Crap, it won't boot xD Feb 25 12:44:10 You think it is dead forever? :P Feb 25 12:44:27 tried charging it? Feb 25 12:44:34 lolcat: evidence that ocing will kill your phone Feb 25 12:44:38 Good thinking Feb 25 12:44:54 lolcat: DocScrutinizer will be happy to see this. yours is the first one :) Feb 25 12:45:11 It shows the Nokia logo and then it dies xD Feb 25 12:45:21 I got to the loading this time Feb 25 12:45:43 Which(?) means the cpu works Feb 25 12:45:51 lolcat: a pity Feb 25 12:45:52 lolcat: try a reflash Feb 25 12:45:53 I killed my laptop in a similar fashion Feb 25 12:46:08 * jonwil would never overclock something Feb 25 12:46:18 * ruskie suggest plug in to decent power... then leave it for some 5 minutes charging Feb 25 12:46:22 THEN try booting it up Feb 25 12:46:23 Venemo_N900: Migth have an empty battery, it was several houres since last time I charged it xD Feb 25 12:46:39 379 euros ... best price in france Feb 25 12:46:40 http://www.ldlc.com/fiche/PB00102133.html?ao=15 Feb 25 12:46:48 i found that still a bit high Feb 25 12:46:48 * ruskie is happy he can run his n900 for a few days Feb 25 12:47:00 ruskie: Custom battery? Feb 25 12:47:17 nope Feb 25 12:47:29 sw tweaks is all Feb 25 12:47:34 Oo Feb 25 12:47:49 default switch to 2G, auto disconnect, no mail checking, no IM Feb 25 12:48:01 ruskie: what tweaks? Feb 25 12:48:07 and I think the display is set to 4/5 Feb 25 12:48:07 Yeah, it booted! Feb 25 12:48:20 Venemo_N900, atleast those ;) Feb 25 12:48:29 disabled a pile of auto-start apps Feb 25 12:48:44 ruskie: which ones? and how? Feb 25 12:48:46 I can wait 5 seconds longer to start an app... no need to prelead it for me... Feb 25 12:48:49 editing .desktop files Feb 25 12:48:59 there's a pile of apps that are preloaded Feb 25 12:49:11 browser, modest, iirc phone... and some others Feb 25 12:49:32 Shouldn't phone be preloaded Feb 25 12:49:41 ? Feb 25 12:49:41 psycho_oreos: the versions of microb for the n900 support xul. the addons dialog is xul Feb 25 12:50:01 lolcat, well I think I left that one to be preloaded Feb 25 12:50:17 but note that 'xul' is usually meant to mean '.xul', whereas 'libxul' is just "gecko" Feb 25 12:50:19 but generally I hate things to be preloaded... Feb 25 12:50:31 Ok GUYS! This wasn't a OC thing! I simply used all the battery! Feb 25 12:50:38 i didn't write microB on my own fwiw, i'm just one of the people involved Feb 25 12:50:57 Not strange really, I used 805mhz at 95%+ for an houre or two Feb 25 12:51:03 hehe Feb 25 12:51:05 anyway Feb 25 12:51:07 would be nice if microb actually supported ssl client certs properly :( Feb 25 12:51:10 I have to leave now Feb 25 12:51:36 javispedro, docscrutinizer: it wasn't a failure to nickserv, it was a nick collision w/ a ghost during a net-split merge Feb 25 12:52:32 Is there a way to get the programs I don't use in a folder? Feb 25 12:52:38 I have too many icons Feb 25 12:53:20 mohammadag: pong? Feb 25 12:53:24 ruskie: Where is teh .desktop file? Feb 25 12:53:39 /usr/share/applications/ Feb 25 12:53:41 under there Feb 25 12:53:49 lolcat: /usr/share/applications/hildon/ Feb 25 12:55:46 It is not a single file to edit? Feb 25 12:56:16 no Feb 25 12:56:16 ok, I confirmed the operator lock stuff is done by a packet sent to the cell modem (as I suspected :) Feb 25 12:56:17 multiple Feb 25 12:56:42 lolcat, examine the phone.desktop file whatever it is Feb 25 12:56:44 jonwil: so locking n900 is possible ... Feb 25 12:56:46 you should see some X- stuff Feb 25 12:56:50 yes it is Feb 25 12:56:50 iirc Feb 25 12:56:59 jonwil: ouch ... Feb 25 12:57:15 it would only be locked if it was bought from a carrier who wanted it locked Feb 25 12:57:44 jonwil: so ... the french azerty edition's are all unlocked ... no carrier sell it :) Feb 25 12:58:41 mine is definatly unlocked Feb 25 13:00:14 http://www.reghardware.com/2011/02/25/mobile_phones_becomes_speakers_at_gigs/ <-- O.o N900 mentioned Feb 25 13:00:27 I installed Opera and FF 4 beta Feb 25 13:00:54 * ruskie wants vimprobable2 on his n900... Feb 25 13:01:22 * jonwil wants Nano on his N900 Feb 25 13:01:29 a little gui question ... how to display a list of accounts (which is a set of a 6 parameters ... login, password, host, ... ) in a settings dialog. Put them all in a editable qtreeview ? or did you have better idea ? Feb 25 13:01:35 jonwil, that's dead easy Feb 25 13:01:51 apt-get install nano Feb 25 13:01:53 actually nano would be useless due to lack of a ctrl key Feb 25 13:01:54 :) Feb 25 13:01:59 or rather easy-to-get-at ctrl key Feb 25 13:02:04 jonwil, there is a ctrl key Feb 25 13:02:07 You have a ctrl key Feb 25 13:02:08 oh yeah right Feb 25 13:02:16 I discovered it today xD Feb 25 13:02:27 vim is difficult as it s lack an escape key Feb 25 13:02:27 I have had the n900 for several months Feb 25 13:03:03 Khertan1, not really Feb 25 13:03:09 heh, I can even begin to imagine the horror that would flow from emacs-on-n900 Feb 25 13:03:29 * ruskie has Ctrl Tab Esc Up Dn ~ | > keys in xterm bar Feb 25 13:03:43 erm PgUp PgDn Feb 25 13:03:52 ruskie: it s not key it s shortcut Feb 25 13:04:01 and slower to use :) Feb 25 13:04:06 Khertan1, I think I might have bound it to a key combo as well Feb 25 13:04:14 aka changed the keymap Feb 25 13:04:22 ruskie: i ve code my own editor :) Feb 25 13:04:23 but no... it's not slower to use Feb 25 13:04:24 "I worked for Nokia..in an effort to show how S40 could be re-used on smartphones a clever little group installed embedded linux, with QT, and managed to get S40 running on it. The whole hack made it look like a linux phone, but all the S40 stuff people liked did not have to be re-written or ported - it was taken as-is." Feb 25 13:04:55 pupnik: gnié? Feb 25 13:05:02 ? Feb 25 13:05:31 Khertan1: i'm just reading from article comments on theregister.co.uk Feb 25 13:05:39 so you got the unliked look like of a linux phone with the lack of feature of s40 Feb 25 13:05:40 ? Feb 25 13:06:34 s40 is a good stack Feb 25 13:06:43 "Let's not forget that WinPho7 is - natch - the 7th iteration of Mobile Windows. And under its achingly edgy UI, it's still a pile of steaming badger kidneys." hahah Feb 25 13:06:58 Could we run S60 on our phone? Feb 25 13:07:24 lolcat, why? Feb 25 13:07:32 ruskie: Spotify offline Feb 25 13:07:33 you couldn't pay me to use a Windows Phone 7, Symbian or IOS phone Feb 25 13:08:11 http://www.theregister.co.uk/2011/02/25/tfl_nfc/ <-- fun... now you can get scammed by the transport authority... I think I'll stick to having a separate card for everything... Feb 25 13:08:42 not to mention last I checked the human rights specify I can haz right to anonymous travel... which means no you can't have my CC info to track me by... Feb 25 13:08:54 why are people so stupid and want to give up their rights... Feb 25 13:09:33 I like the N900 because you can program it in C/C++, to program iOS I would need to learn the bastardized piece of crap known as Objective-C Feb 25 13:10:12 jonwil, isn't ObjC just C with a few objective pecific additions? Feb 25 13:10:27 its C with a rather crappy OOP later on top Feb 25 13:10:34 and C++ is? Feb 25 13:10:48 C++ is far nicer than Objective-C Feb 25 13:10:52 C with a weird syntax and crappy OOP layer on top... ;) Feb 25 13:11:12 if it's based on C it will always have crappy OOP layer on top Feb 25 13:11:35 I hate C++ with burning fire of a thousand suns, but even I agree ObjectiveC is crap in comparison. Feb 25 13:13:04 I'd say each has their strengths and weaknesses Feb 25 13:13:43 Until iOS, ObjectiveC's primary strength was that nobody used it. Feb 25 13:14:34 derf, you mean other than MacOS? Feb 25 13:14:36 JAVA is even worse Feb 25 13:14:49 and NeXT Feb 25 13:15:25 C# Feb 25 13:15:29 is worse still Feb 25 13:15:47 C# line for line looks almost exactly like JAVA Feb 25 13:16:24 ruskie: Exactly. Nobody. Feb 25 13:16:46 how about you take the trollfest to somewhere people care? Feb 25 13:17:00 Why won't dosbox in debian use the dosbox in maemo's config Feb 25 13:17:06 Where should I copy it too? Feb 25 13:17:18 crashanddie, as soon as you point out the trollfest Feb 25 13:17:24 crashanddie, we're simply having a nice civil debate Feb 25 13:17:33 C# vs Java vs MacOS Feb 25 13:17:36 since the rest of the channel seems to be quiet Feb 25 13:18:14 crashanddie trolls with the best of them Feb 25 13:18:16 you're still mightily offtopic, and purposefully discussing topics that will raise something out of people, so just put a cork on it, will ya? Feb 25 13:18:50 pupnik, I think we're both roughly on the same troll-scale gradient ;) Feb 25 13:19:35 ruskie: Do you know? Feb 25 13:19:42 there's nothing wrong with having an opinion about a language Feb 25 13:20:22 MohammadAG, unless you argue that opinion with mere triviality rather than facts Feb 25 13:21:13 MohammadAG, and claiming that a language is shit because "nobody uses it", or "it looks like crap", is about as righteous as saying the Mona Lisa is a crap piece of art because she's not asian Feb 25 13:21:36 'nuff said Feb 25 13:21:45 crashanddie, yet all of those are valid opinions ;) Feb 25 13:22:00 an opinion does not require to be technical to be valid Feb 25 13:22:35 "Opinions are like assholes, everyone got them. Still no reason for you to shove them up under other people's noses for inspection" Feb 25 13:22:53 glad to hear your opinion about everything Feb 25 13:23:07 since you opinioned on the whole debate that it's a trollfest Feb 25 13:23:10 you're about 30 seconds away from getting banned. And that's a fact. Feb 25 13:23:29 that would be a first Feb 25 13:23:58 It's doubly off-topic because none of C#, Java or Mac OS run on Maemo or Maemo devices well. Feb 25 13:24:14 Has anyone ever tried porting Mono to Maemo? Feb 25 13:24:15 * lolcat can write C# Feb 25 13:24:26 lolcat: but can you write LOLCODE? Feb 25 13:24:29 At least in theory Feb 25 13:24:38 http://www.mono-project.com/Mono:ARM Feb 25 13:24:38 (and, FFS, if you're going to try and look all knowledgable about the pros & cons of different languages, at least learn that "Java" is not an acronym, and not CAPITALISED) Feb 25 13:24:45 canhaz Feb 25 13:24:50 kerio: Not really, had a class on C#. 4 houres a week for a year Feb 25 13:24:51 hmm, why should someone learn C# instead of java? Feb 25 13:24:51 Jaffa++ Feb 25 13:24:55 kerio, see, I can) Feb 25 13:25:02 crashanddie: There was a port, IIRC. But it got as much traction as the Java port. Feb 25 13:25:14 kerio, mainly because some vendors only provide C# APIs Feb 25 13:25:19 http://www.mono-project.com/Maemo <-- to be precise Feb 25 13:25:22 MohammadAG: that's not lolcode Feb 25 13:25:31 kerio, and AFAICT, you can use Java classes from C#, but not the other way around. Feb 25 13:25:33 Primarily because of: a) no (decent) JIT; b) lack of GUI bindings Feb 25 13:25:36 kerio: Most of the time I got errors it was because I forgott what language I was writing. VB and C# apparently has very diffrent syntaxes Feb 25 13:25:41 MohammadAG: CAN HAS QT? Feb 25 13:25:49 Qt* Feb 25 13:25:52 crashanddie: Presumably you could drop to C#'s equivalent of JNI and then back up through JNI to Java? Feb 25 13:25:56 lolcat: of course, one is visual basic and the other is java Feb 25 13:26:04 Jaffa, hardly Feb 25 13:26:08 MohammadAG: STDIO is full caps, so i assume Qt is too Feb 25 13:26:18 * Jaffa not done much with C#, fortunately. Feb 25 13:26:22 QT sucks kerio Feb 25 13:26:26 Qt otoh... Feb 25 13:26:37 why should someone learn C# or java instead of python? Feb 25 13:26:37 Why is QuickTime sucking kerio? Feb 25 13:26:49 * MohammadAG said that Feb 25 13:26:57 kerio: Because the job markets for C# and Java are about a bazillion times more wide and highly paying? Feb 25 13:27:01 last time I used QT it took over all my MIMEs Feb 25 13:27:07 Jaffa, this one guy made a Java compiler entirely in C#, so that you can take any .class file and you'll get a .dll instead, with the whole lot usable from C#. I used it and it's pretty awesome. Feb 25 13:27:25 any dbus pros around? Feb 25 13:27:35 Jaffa: lies :< Feb 25 13:27:38 kerio, because they are faster? Feb 25 13:27:41 Jaffa, according to some ozzie research doing stuff like Delphi, Foxpro, Cobol can get you a $500/hour paying job Feb 25 13:27:43 xkr47: not really Feb 25 13:27:53 really Feb 25 13:27:58 pypy is about as fast as java 6 steady state Feb 25 13:27:59 ruskie, in a very limited pool of opportunities Feb 25 13:28:04 crashanddie, true Feb 25 13:28:13 also there are no slow languages, just slow implementations Feb 25 13:28:14 and specificaly in australia Feb 25 13:28:16 kerio: If you're a hobbyist programmer, use a language that's available on the platform your hobby targets. For Maemo, that's Python. For desktop Windows, C# or Java would probably be better. For desktop Windows, it's probably a three way tie Feb 25 13:28:21 MohammadAG: what's the d-bus problem? Feb 25 13:28:21 kerio, exactly Feb 25 13:28:58 thp, solved Feb 25 13:29:22 kerio, actually, that's not entirely true. A language with sloppy typecasting will always be slower than a heavily typed language, simply because any kind of comparison, stack inspection or operation won't have to do conversions... Feb 25 13:29:22 ruskie: I don't claim there aren't high-paying jobs out there for obscure languages like Delphi (hell, we use(d) Delphi here). My point is that the total salary of all Java developers will be higher than the total salary of all paid Python developers; because there are so many more jobs in it. Feb 25 13:29:22 thp, sorry about that :P Feb 25 13:29:38 Jaffa, of course, my hobby language was ASM Feb 25 13:29:39 crashanddie: so python is fast! :D Feb 25 13:29:47 why would I learn python.. Feb 25 13:30:00 Jaffa, yes but the person getting a job will only be interested in how much they can get ;) Feb 25 13:30:28 kerio, well there is of course jython :-) Feb 25 13:30:30 * ruskie needs to learn to learn languages... Feb 25 13:30:31 a little gui question ... how to display a list of accounts (which is a set of a 6 parameters ... login, password, host, ... ) in a settings dialog. Put them all in a editable qtreeview ? or did you have better idea ? Feb 25 13:30:34 lcuk: BBC BASIC, 6502 assembler, ARM assembler, Perl and now it's a mix of shell scripting; Perl; Python; Java; Groovy Feb 25 13:31:01 Venemo, replacement dialog ready, is Qt Animation framework easy? Feb 25 13:31:06 Jaffa, you should try bytecode languages :-) Feb 25 13:31:17 MohammadAG: ;) Feb 25 13:31:29 kerio, it also lacks all of the enterprise features that Java offers... Go ask IBM to dump PI or JHI or RFT on your Python app, just for shits and giggles ;) Feb 25 13:31:34 xkr47: I've done a tiny bit of Java bytecode manipulation ;-) Feb 25 13:31:46 Jaffa, yeah it's fun :) Feb 25 13:32:02 How can I open a chat window up inside the gmail account from the left side with my N900 ? Feb 25 13:32:07 Jaffa, should investigate other ones as well, like the perl6 bytecodes and c# etc Feb 25 13:32:10 Khertan1: 6 rows of label + text entry pairs, or text entry with "default" (gray) text without labels? Feb 25 13:32:15 I am trying the one, double click with stylus, but nothing happens regarding that. Feb 25 13:32:24 Jaffa: i know some well paid python dev working in finance that get arround same than 15 java dev together :) Feb 25 13:32:24 kerio: The obstinance of typical open source developers to look beyond there own trivial projects at the massive amount of money and investment in ecosystems like Java constantly surprises me. Feb 25 13:32:44 xkr47: I still follow Parrot with interest and fascination Feb 25 13:32:45 thp, do you know how to get the string here in Qt? Feb 25 13:32:53 Jaffa, agreed on both :) Feb 25 13:32:54 thp: on the small screen of the n900 ... difficult to see what it ll render Feb 25 13:32:54 signal sender=:1.19 -> dest=(null destination) serial=8361 path=/com/nokia/csd/call; interface=com.nokia.csd.Call; member=Coming Feb 25 13:32:54 object path "/com/nokia/csd/call/1" Feb 25 13:32:54 string "00000000" Feb 25 13:33:28 MohammadAG: "string here in qt"? Feb 25 13:33:37 Khertan1: As I said, some Python devs get paid a lot. So do some Java devs. Most aren't rich beyond the dreams of avarice, but there are more Java jobs out there. Feb 25 13:33:41 Jaffa, that before-last sentence didn't compute with me Feb 25 13:33:44 Jaffa: yeah, stupid open source programmers that nobody pays, working on their hobbies instead of focusing on enterprise Feb 25 13:33:46 I still maintain that Java is an excellent language for mediocre programmers. Feb 25 13:33:50 thp, the string from that dbus message Feb 25 13:34:00 thp my problem isn't coding the things ... but found something that is readable :) Feb 25 13:34:01 Which is good, because there are a lot of mediocre programmers. Feb 25 13:34:15 Jaffa: depends on functional domain ... Feb 25 13:34:21 crashanddie: I've met lots of people online (different IRC channels, talkers, /.) who say things like "nobody uses Java" Feb 25 13:34:21 derf, agreed Feb 25 13:34:32 lots of people use java Feb 25 13:34:35 it doesn't mean they should Feb 25 13:34:39 Jaffa, oh, right. Feb 25 13:34:53 kerio, to be very brutally honest, there is no alternative. Feb 25 13:34:55 As simply as that. Feb 25 13:34:56 MohammadAG: in the normal d-bus python bindings, you'll add a signal receiver / filter (don't know the terms in QtDBus) Feb 25 13:34:57 Jaffa: and there is far more dev ... so it s difficult to catch attention of employer Feb 25 13:35:19 s/is/are Feb 25 13:35:47 thp, ui->numberLabel->setText(message.arguments()[1].toString()); Feb 25 13:35:51 that was easy :p Feb 25 13:36:02 MohammadAG: toString() ???? Feb 25 13:36:06 MohammadAG: beurk Feb 25 13:36:18 why? Feb 25 13:36:19 oh, so you already received the message Feb 25 13:36:44 kerio, the simple mind boggling amount of absolutely fantastic tools that help any big (300k+ SLOC) application to understand where the bottleneck is, how to streamline the processes involved, and visualise every single piece information through bite-sized chunks is enough to convince me that Java is still one heck of a language Feb 25 13:37:07 Khertan1: it's a QVariant Feb 25 13:37:14 MohammadAG: use sip api2 Feb 25 13:37:21 faster ... better ... stronger ... Feb 25 13:37:24 sip? Feb 25 13:37:25 (and maintained) Feb 25 13:37:25 harder Feb 25 13:37:26 what language do they use on the shuttle? Feb 25 13:37:33 MohammadAG: or pyside Feb 25 13:37:37 lcuk, good question Feb 25 13:37:42 Khertan1, this is C++, why should I use Python Feb 25 13:37:50 MohammadAG: ah ... oups sorry :) Feb 25 13:38:00 I believe the computer systems are dual coded by different teams in completely different environments Feb 25 13:38:02 you still need to do conv and type casting so :) Feb 25 13:38:03 lol no worries Feb 25 13:38:16 lcuk, "HAL/S is a real-time aerospace programming language, best known for its use in the Space Shuttle program. It was designed by Intermetrics in the 1970s for NASA. HAL/S is written in XPL, a dialect of PL/I." Feb 25 13:38:20 and then deployed to different machines Feb 25 13:38:22 They fucking named their programming language HAL Feb 25 13:38:36 that is because NASA are simply awesome. Feb 25 13:38:59 GOTO++ Will rulez all !!!! Feb 25 13:39:00 "HAL/S has native support for integers, floating point scalars, vector, matrices, booleans and strings of 8-bit characters, limited to a maximum length of 255. Structured types may be composed using a DECLARE STRUCT statement." Feb 25 13:39:16 http://www.gotopp.org/index.html.en Feb 25 13:39:20 so, no unicode on the shuttle Feb 25 13:39:21 which explains why it took them so long to accept foreign astronauts, the system would segfault on UTF-8 characters Feb 25 13:39:26 hahaha Feb 25 13:39:40 fun Feb 25 13:39:41 heh Feb 25 13:39:55 what was it used for? Design of the craft or on-board systems? Feb 25 13:40:29 "The three key principles in designing the language were reliability, efficiency, and machine-independence. The language is designed to allow aerospace-related tasks (such as vector/matrix arithmetic) to be accomplished in a way that is easily understandable to people who have spaceflight knowledge, but may not necessarily have proficiency with computer programming." Feb 25 13:40:35 lardman, onboard systems afaik Feb 25 13:41:26 "For instance, the letter 'C' in the first column indicates that the whole line is a comment and should be ignored by the compiler." Feb 25 13:41:33 So much for variables or statements that begin with C Feb 25 13:41:33 seems fair Feb 25 13:41:47 you even program in FORTRAN crashanddie? Feb 25 13:41:48 crashanddie, does that mean everything you say should be ignored by the compiler :P Feb 25 13:41:53 s/even/ever Feb 25 13:41:58 lardman, nope Feb 25 13:42:10 lcuk, not a capital C... Close, but no cigar. Feb 25 13:42:14 well be happy then ;) Feb 25 13:42:23 Hi. I am testing html5 videos on youtube with Firefox mobil at nokia n900. But it seems terribly slow - nearly unusable. Is there any chance it will be better? Feb 25 13:42:49 markinfo, well, it would probably need hardware acceleration, which is unlikely in the near future Feb 25 13:43:08 markinfo, how well do youtube videos work direct from the website on your other mobile devices? Feb 25 13:43:14 markinfo: Do the videos play okay outside of YouTube? Feb 25 13:43:19 the better command of the GOTO++ : GOTOGOTO() %label Feb 25 13:43:36 How do I reduce the voltage? Feb 25 13:43:46 * lcuk finds youtube actually plays well enough to be watchable on n900 :) Feb 25 13:43:51 there is 50% chance of jumping to the label ... and 50% to jump randomly in the code :) Feb 25 13:43:54 lcuk, you mean to save them loal and play direct? Feb 25 13:44:25 markinfo, no, I mean how well does youtube website play from other handheld devices Feb 25 13:45:14 Khertan1: that's even better than COME FROM Feb 25 13:45:22 lcuk, I have only nokia n900 .... this phone was quite expensive - so I am awaiting some power. Feb 25 13:46:24 Adobe flash is not working - o.k. ...but html5 video also not. Feb 25 13:46:29 markinfo, this device is smaller than your hand Feb 25 13:46:59 I was looking a computer that was bigger than a room the other day Feb 25 13:47:03 what is more powerfull device actually? Feb 25 13:47:42 htc desire? Feb 25 13:47:47 is there some new model? ... iHeard smartphones has 1GHZ CPU today. Feb 25 13:48:15 well, "iHurd" in this case might be appropriate Feb 25 13:48:21 iHurld Feb 25 13:48:35 N900 would be good if flash 10.1 at least Feb 25 13:48:41 markinfo, and I can carry my laptop Feb 25 13:48:46 +hardware accel Feb 25 13:48:47 markinfo: you can buy a phone with the 'power' to slide transitions at 60fps. and click on icons. Feb 25 13:49:11 or you can buy a n900 to have the power to do many different things besides poke at the screen Feb 25 13:49:29 talking about iHurd, I bought an iPod Touch and Airport Express. Just awesome to control the macbook through remotetap/remote and have the soundsystem in the living room play music without any wires, nor computers in said livingroom. Feb 25 13:49:33 Feb 25 13:50:03 the n900 is more powerful than any other phone. but most people don't know how to use those powers. Feb 25 13:50:11 Still there is no phone at market that I would switch my N900 though. Feb 25 13:50:21 Despite it's shortcomings. Feb 25 13:50:26 its Feb 25 13:51:06 hm - i had long time nokia n810 and week ago a bought nokia n900 ... and just in a few days gone and I see there again not power enough? Feb 25 13:51:20 "A specialist ice cream parlor plans to serve up breast milk ice cream and says people should think of it as an organic, free-range treat. The breast milk concoction, called the "Baby Gaga," will be available from Friday at the Icecreamists restaurant in London's Covent Garden." Feb 25 13:51:31 lardman & Jaffa: you guys definitely have to try that :D Feb 25 13:51:32 i could use more battery power more than i could use more cpu power Feb 25 13:51:46 but carrying a spare battery (or two) solves that Feb 25 13:51:46 crashanddie: yuck! Feb 25 13:52:19 I just bought a new battery :) I get 2 days uptime now Feb 25 13:52:25 whats yuck is the price of it Feb 25 13:52:27 My old one was really worn out :) Feb 25 13:52:32 I get 4 days uptime Feb 25 13:52:37 yess - attery should be twice so big ... I do not know why is nokia n900 so small. It was better with nokia n810. Feb 25 13:52:37 with the original battery Feb 25 13:52:45 I have 3G and connections always on. Feb 25 13:52:49 now coming on to ~18 months of use in a few months... Feb 25 13:53:03 nid0, 14 quid per serving... Feb 25 13:53:06 yep Feb 25 13:53:35 I also run skype + latitude daemon etc so that why it sucks some juice. Feb 25 13:53:40 Haha, lardman and nid0: ""Some people will hear about it and go, 'yuck' but actually it's pure, organic, free-range and totally natural," he said. "I had a Baby Gaga just this morning and I feel great."" Feb 25 13:53:47 But I think two days is decent. Feb 25 13:53:50 crashanddie: Depends on the breasts, surely? Feb 25 13:54:04 Jaffa: they have like 15 mothers signed up to donate Feb 25 13:54:06 Jaffa, I don't think the icecream comes out of the breasts Feb 25 13:54:15 not with this weather anyway Feb 25 13:54:18 Jaffa, "100% pure organic male breast milk" Feb 25 13:54:37 "Hang on a second, that's not a breast" Feb 25 13:54:43 crashanddie: Would probably be a Health & Safety issue to get it coming out frozen... Feb 25 13:54:50 crashanddie: Eww Feb 25 13:55:02 shock freezing as it hits the cold air Feb 25 13:55:18 those nipples will look like straws. Feb 25 13:55:21 lardman: It's warm in London today Feb 25 13:55:21 probably a nipple eye danger then though Feb 25 13:55:26 crashanddie: +1 :D Feb 25 13:56:02 Maemo, code, computers, breasts. Feb 25 13:56:16 can be installed on this http://www.htc.com/www/product/7pro/specification.html some other operating systeM? Feb 25 13:56:23 lcuk: Is this in descending order of interest? Feb 25 13:56:29 lcuk: Or on-topicness? Feb 25 13:56:46 Jaffa, breasts should be higher than computers Feb 25 13:56:47 Jaffa, I have already made it clear boobies are high priority, especially for multitouch interaction. Feb 25 13:56:54 I mean, when she's standing. Feb 25 13:57:16 crashanddie: Or he. Feb 25 13:57:23 o_O Feb 25 13:57:51 Jaffa, if he's sitting in front of the computer, then technically his boobies are allowed to be under it Feb 25 13:58:52 * lardman wonders how large your screen is to get usable multitouch performance from breasts Feb 25 13:59:14 lardman, I have a 20" multitouch Feb 25 13:59:22 lardman, men get "usable multitouch" with just 2 to 3 inches... Feb 25 13:59:29 but it works on my 10" one as well Feb 25 13:59:41 it might also work on your less than average 7" one Feb 25 13:59:48 You know what Feb 25 14:00:06 I'm so fucking happy I still use that corny nickname instead of like my real name Feb 25 14:00:19 I'd be screwed during the next job interview if they googled my name and this came up Feb 25 14:00:22 :-) Feb 25 14:00:24 lol Feb 25 14:00:32 * Jaffa considers pasting a /who crashanddie Feb 25 14:00:35 "So, tell us about your multitouch breast experience over IRC" Feb 25 14:00:55 crashanddie, at least my stuff is related Feb 25 14:00:59 http://liqbase.net/liq.packard.bell.multitouch.boobies.fail.20100402_003.mp4 :P Feb 25 14:01:07 lcuk, go ahead ;) Feb 25 14:01:09 "helping to ensure multitouch actually bloody works" Feb 25 14:01:12 err, Jaffa, go ahead Feb 25 14:01:22 If a company would ask that seriously, I wouldn't want to work there, either... Feb 25 14:01:25 lcuk, safe for work? Feb 25 14:01:31 crashanddie: Yeah, spotted that. Feb 25 14:01:44 crashanddie, yes Feb 25 14:02:00 Treibholz, depends, if she's really hot or not... Feb 25 14:02:14 crashanddie, one of the HP guys at the meego conf actually went digging and found the user reports which matched Feb 25 14:02:34 its a nown issue for every large panel MT display I have tried Feb 25 14:02:44 known * Feb 25 14:03:42 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meego_(TV_series) lol Feb 25 14:04:02 "Meego was canceled halfway through its first season." Feb 25 14:04:05 hmm... Feb 25 14:04:09 lcuk, lol... Feb 25 14:04:36 Treibholz, I think you'll find me and khertan laughing about that about 20 minutes after the MeeGo announced a year ago... :) Feb 25 14:05:15 crashanddie: Yes, I somehow knew, it was old for you.... Feb 25 14:06:13 crashanddie, sampling rate and aliasing effects - its cured by increasing the read rate Feb 25 14:06:27 this meego ideapad does not have problem that I can see :) Feb 25 14:06:55 lcuk: I did't get wifi to work on mine.. Feb 25 14:07:41 Treibholz, on your what? Feb 25 14:08:54 lcuk: IdeaPad S10e Feb 25 14:09:17 that is odd indeed, are you sure you enabled the wifi switch o nthe side of it o_O Feb 25 14:09:23 on the * Feb 25 14:09:26 treibholz: yeah, i was rather depressed when i first heard the name choice Feb 25 14:09:40 and for once, the blame doesn't lie w/ the Finn Feb 25 14:09:45 lcuk: it works perfectly with Windows, Debian, and MacOS X Feb 25 14:09:53 the Intel guy should have done the research against americana Feb 25 14:10:58 btw.: is the sqlite-database of the callendar of Meego HX like the one in meamo? Feb 25 14:17:18 will be this http://forum.xda-developers.com/showpost.php?p=10116069 a solution to get powerfull smartphone? Feb 25 14:18:27 there is a video about using Ubuntu on HTC. working with firefox seems to be quite fast. Much faser than on nokia n900. Feb 25 14:18:33 the HD2 is not that good by todays standards Feb 25 14:18:42 plus its not sold anymore Feb 25 14:18:57 Now Ubuntu on the HD7 on the other hand, THAT might be interesting Feb 25 14:20:03 HD7 is not on the list: http://htc-linux.org/wiki/index.php?title=Main_Page (maybe yet?) Feb 25 14:21:30 I think no-one has a way to run alternative OSs on Windows Phone handsets yet Feb 25 14:21:33 due to all the lockdown Feb 25 14:22:14 for android Phones is it easysier? Feb 25 14:25:02 I was a little bit shocked, when I tried NITdroid, how fast it was. Feb 25 14:26:12 Treibholz, do you have still NITroid on your Nokia? Feb 25 14:26:17 jonwil: nor Android phones last I checked Feb 25 14:26:45 Custom kernels can run on a bunch of Android phones Feb 25 14:26:51 including the Desire Z Feb 25 14:26:53 and Desire HD Feb 25 14:27:13 and if you can run a custom kernel, that's all you need for a real linux setup Feb 25 14:28:27 markinfo: not really. I still have the MicroSD-card, but when you run it from a MicroSD, the OS is often slow. Feb 25 14:28:40 but it's much, much faster than meego Feb 25 14:28:40 jonwil: custom *Linux* kernels? Feb 25 14:28:44 or just Android kernels? Feb 25 14:29:03 well they can completly replace the binary Feb 25 14:29:08 and the rootfs Feb 25 14:29:11 jonwil: with what? Feb 25 14:29:47 I dont see any real difference between a linux kernel and an android kernel if you port over the right hardware drivers Feb 25 14:30:01 Treibholz, it would be interessting if for example this video in html5 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xtlEl_jJ9eU would be playable on ot. Feb 25 14:30:45 the whole firefox mobile is too slow on nokia n900. Feb 25 14:31:39 markinfo: it's too slow on everything I've tried it on. It was too slow on an overclocked n900. It's too slow on the overclocked desire Z I'm currently using. Feb 25 14:31:41 markinfo: here on my desktop, Flash uses less CPU than "native" HTML5-videos in FF4b Feb 25 14:32:18 I don't know how they get it so slow... Feb 25 14:32:29 maybe the decoder is in JavaScript... Feb 25 14:32:50 hm - adobe flash uses probably some hardware acceleration. Feb 25 14:33:31 So does Firefox, but it's disabled on a lot of systems due to driver crashes. Feb 25 14:33:52 but only to scroll text - it freezes sometimes seconds .... Feb 25 14:35:47 is there some software that shows in menu CPU utilization? Feb 25 14:37:58 markinfo: well, top will do it, from the terminal... :-) Feb 25 14:38:20 (IIRC there's an applet for it, yeah) Feb 25 14:39:38 maybe Firefox is slow - but there is no other browser today that supports html5 so good. Or? Feb 25 14:40:52 markinfo: depends who you talk to, really Feb 25 14:41:44 Treibholz, it is EASY to make software run slowly Feb 25 14:41:59 any developer can clog up the cpu of even the fastest machine Feb 25 14:42:17 The decoder is about the only part that's actually fast. Feb 25 14:42:24 however, it takes a delicate fine highly skilled developer to make a cpu purr :) Feb 25 14:42:32 It's everything that happens after decoding before it gets on the screen that's slow. Feb 25 14:43:08 derf - it is decoded to a backbuffer and then the buffer is painted to the screen with scaling (at least that is what happens when you use +- keys Feb 25 14:43:14 hm - even on my desktop dual core 1.8GHz takes this html5 video from youtube nearly 50% of CPU. Feb 25 14:43:33 lcuk: If only it were that simple. Feb 25 14:43:40 software bitmap scaling (if including AA) is something that is heavy for the cpu Feb 25 14:43:54 markinfo: Are you trying to play the 720p version? Feb 25 14:44:12 360p Feb 25 14:44:43 That's... pretty ridiculous. Feb 25 14:44:58 What OS is your desktop running? Feb 25 14:46:41 XFCE on debian squeeze. Interesting - if the video Window ist hided - for example page is scrolled down it falls to nearly to zero CPU even the video is playing further. Feb 25 14:47:08 What happens if you run Firefox with MOZ_GLX_IGNORE_BLACKLIST=1 ? Feb 25 14:49:03 derf, how to do that? Starts firefox with this parameter? Feb 25 14:49:25 Type export MOZ_GLX_IGNORE_BLACKLIST=1 Feb 25 14:49:30 Then run Firefox. Feb 25 14:49:43 or MOZ_GLX_IGNORE_BLACKLIST=1 firefox Feb 25 14:49:44 (from the same shell) Feb 25 14:49:55 Yes, that works, too. Feb 25 14:52:41 makes no difference on my Core-i5-notebook here Feb 25 14:52:45 it seems to be the same. Feb 25 14:53:30 Are you sure you completely closed the browser first? Feb 25 14:53:42 but glxgears makes: 8736 frames in 5.0 seconds = 1747.072 FPS Feb 25 14:54:27 marwhen glxgears adds a webbrowser component it can be used as a fair comparison Feb 25 14:54:40 markinfo, when* Feb 25 14:57:02 OK WHAT THE HOLY FUCK? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bxd96qRa6wY Feb 25 14:58:30 what, it was only time before motion-sensing tech started getting used for adult games :P Feb 25 14:59:10 booooring Feb 25 15:16:37 alterego: ping Feb 25 15:59:45 Jaffa: there's already per-contact-ringtones as by barisione Feb 25 16:00:57 DocScrutinizer: Indeed. I was going to point that out to jonwil but couldn't be arsed to do the Googling Feb 25 17:10:38 hello Feb 25 17:10:44 anyone der ? Feb 25 17:10:49 anyone who is into hacing Feb 25 17:10:59 hacking Feb 25 17:11:26 hacking? Feb 25 17:11:31 Define: "hacking". Feb 25 17:12:03 welll i just wanttto get the password of sm one anyone can help me in tht Feb 25 17:12:12 Nope Feb 25 17:12:16 huh Feb 25 17:12:45 sssup: whose password are you trying to get? Feb 25 17:25:46 if you want their NIT password, you'll have to install video surveillance Feb 25 17:29:47 * alterego sighs Feb 25 17:30:23 when my n900 logs in to facebook chat, does it report it's user agent as opera on winxp? Feb 25 17:30:44 what?!? Feb 25 17:30:46 celesteh: no Feb 25 17:30:48 This command launches a browser window, but not the webpage; what am i doing wrong? => /usr/bin/browser www.maemo.org Feb 25 17:31:01 celesteh: MicroB on linux would be my bet Feb 25 17:31:15 unixSnob: You have to use DBus Feb 25 17:31:26 browser launches another engine Feb 25 17:31:35 sivang: facebook keeps telling me that somebody is logging in on opera on winxp and their locations seem to match mine, so i thought it might be my phone Feb 25 17:31:35 anybody know why after upgrading last night, I get antoher upgrade offer and when I check the status it says 'broken but upgradeable' ? Feb 25 17:31:37 Jaffa: i know the DBus command.. but I read somewhere that it can be launched Feb 25 17:31:54 celesteh: I would be very surprised if this is the case. Feb 25 17:32:05 unixSnob, you're spawning another instance of the browser = wasting memory Feb 25 17:32:18 hey MohammadAG Feb 25 17:32:26 hi Feb 25 17:32:37 MohammadAG: you have any idea about this upgrade issue? it seems that qt sensors lib is missing also due to this. Feb 25 17:32:47 hmm Feb 25 17:32:49 MohammadAG: actually, this is for cases where I want the first instance Feb 25 17:32:53 /usr/local/bin/qtbubblelevel: error while loading shared libraries: libQtSensors.so.1: cannot open shared object file: No such file or directory Feb 25 17:32:56 * MohammadAG pokes achipa Feb 25 17:32:56 Finished running remote process. Feb 25 17:33:07 apt-get install libqtm-sensors Feb 25 17:33:10 unixSnob: It can be launched using dbus on the command line Feb 25 17:33:15 got my answer, i think => browser --url=http://www.maemo.org Feb 25 17:33:20 sivang: hmmm, this is annoying / alarming Feb 25 17:33:26 MohammadAG: hrm, I guess it won't help saying this should have happened by itself with the upgrade? :) Feb 25 17:33:35 MohammadAG: 'user platform etc etc' ;) Feb 25 17:33:42 probably doesn't depend on it for some reason Feb 25 17:33:53 on that note Feb 25 17:33:57 * sivang wonders what the hell happened to the firmware upgrade Feb 25 17:34:07 achipa, libqtm-12 doesn't depend on libqtm-12-connectivity Feb 25 17:34:14 what should be the reported version fot latest upgrade if I am not using CSSU? Feb 25 17:34:32 not a big issue though Feb 25 17:34:45 20.2010.36-2 whether you're using the CSSU or not Feb 25 17:34:47 celesteh: sorry dude, wish I could help. Google identifies me as N900 / MicroB (gecko) etc Feb 25 17:34:58 the CSSU uses that number + maemoXX Feb 25 17:35:08 ah okay, cool Feb 25 17:35:16 like a downstrream upgrade Feb 25 17:35:18 sivang: is there a way i can use google to find out what the chat agent signs in as? Feb 25 17:35:24 Jaffa: i just verified the --url switch and it works... but out of curiousity, whats the dbus command if you don't have a browser running yet? Presumably it's different than the regular command Feb 25 17:35:53 MohammadAG: so this is my version, and still it tells me to upgrade when I use holdon app manager to 'update' Feb 25 17:37:52 MohammadAG: ah okay, something got screwed. I am not on that version. Before the upgrade reboot it said I am on that version. Feb 25 17:37:57 * sivang wonders if to try and upgrade again Feb 25 17:38:43 celesteh: well, you can use a page to do this. There are tons on the internet Feb 25 17:39:21 sivang: yeah, but it's not the browser, it's the chat client that i think is identifying this way Feb 25 17:40:52 lol @ work's message re lack of email: http://pastebin.com/Rs4MQaVv /me wonders if a sink hole opened up under the server farm Feb 25 17:42:19 this fails to launch => ssh user@10.15.66.37 /usr/bin/dbus-send --system --type=method_call --dest=com.nokia.osso_browser /com/nokia/osso_browser/request com.nokia.osso_browser.load_url string:http://www.maemo.org Feb 25 17:43:36 and replacing "--system" with "--session" is worse.. gets an error about libraries being wrongly setup Feb 25 17:45:41 unixSnob: if browser isn't running you can't start it with dbus Feb 25 17:46:09 ... and if it IS running already, you don't need to start it :D Feb 25 17:46:32 jacekowski: okay.. Jaffa was saying otherwise Feb 25 17:47:01 ah Feb 25 17:47:02 browserd Feb 25 17:47:16 then it should take same command Feb 25 17:48:27 jacekowski: what do you mean? Feb 25 17:49:49 unixSnob: you can't use --session because you're not in desktop session when logging in via ssh Feb 25 17:50:51 slonopotamus: desktop session? sounds like something I want to use. Does that mean I can get the desktop in an x window? Feb 25 17:51:30 meh Feb 25 17:51:39 unixSnob: you can't use --session because you're not in desktop session when logging in via ssh Feb 25 17:51:40 unixSnob: you need to google for reusing same dbus session Feb 25 17:52:29 unixSnob: makes sense? Feb 25 17:54:42 slonopotamus_: doesn't sound like what I'm after. I thought for a minute there that dbus could be used to launch a new browser window Feb 25 17:55:10 no big deal.. i'll just use browser --url when I want to launch a window Feb 25 17:56:19 unixSnob: it can be used (it works when run from gui terminal) Feb 25 17:56:46 Hey guys. I'm trying to build a custom kernel for my n810. I have started with the n8x0_defconfig, but when booting it just shows the Nokia splash screen for about a minute, and then powers off. I have tried to enable the fb console, but... either I'm doing it wrong, or the kernel isn't booting far enough to initialize the console. Anybody have any tips, or a known-good .config file I could start from? Feb 25 17:57:57 jhanely: you want omap2420_defconfig Feb 25 17:58:06 Ah, thank you. Feb 25 17:59:13 MohammadAG: CSSU are not enabled by default right? Feb 25 17:59:41 hmm? Feb 25 18:00:00 MohammadAG: I just got paranoid thinking they are enabled by default. Excuse me :) Feb 25 18:00:26 "Enabled by default"? Feb 25 18:11:11 Making the cable for usb hostemode is difficult Feb 25 18:14:26 not really Feb 25 18:14:31 all you need is a gender bender Feb 25 18:25:55 Slonopotamus: I did not find an omap2420_defconfig, though I did find an omap_generic_2420_defconfig. Building from that, I still can't even tell if the kernel is starting at all. It sits on the Nokia screen for a moment, and then powers off. Do you know of any way to get output from the bootloader or something? Feb 25 18:26:30 I have lots of experience configuring and building kernels, but very little with embedded devices. Feb 25 18:26:40 rx51_defconfig for the N900 Feb 25 18:27:07 I'm trying to build for the n810. Feb 25 18:27:22 oh, rx44 maybe? idk Feb 25 18:38:18 No luck there. Feb 25 18:43:39 N8x0_defconfig sounds just fine to me (noob speaking here) Feb 25 18:44:53 jhanely: unlike N900, the N8x0 devices use initrd Feb 25 18:45:04 afaik Feb 25 18:45:50 Yeah, it does. For getting started though, as long as I can get the basic stuff built in that shouldn't matter. Or so I believe. Feb 25 18:46:57 At this point, I'm really just looking for any indication that my kernel is booting at all. Mounting root and/or initfs can be dealt with once I get that far. Feb 25 18:48:26 for all I know initrd has to match kernel, otherwise it will stall Feb 25 18:48:52 Yes, if you need to load any modules before root is mounted, they have to come from initrd. And they have to match the kernel. Feb 25 18:49:10 and there's not much space left in the n8x0 initrd partition Feb 25 18:49:32 Indeed not. 2mb for the kernel image, and I'm not sure how much for the initrd. Feb 25 18:50:34 I can easily fit the fb console related drivers in the kernel though, and still fit in 2mb. So if the kernel is starting up, I should be able to see some output. Feb 25 18:50:52 Jaffa, javispedro http://gitorious.org/slide2answer/slide2answer Feb 25 18:51:24 javispedro, it doesn't kill the stock dialog (yet), it simply pops over it Feb 25 18:51:25 jhanely: I'm not sure about fb console support in N8x0 kernel Feb 25 18:51:55 maybe javispedro knows better details Feb 25 18:52:09 I know it exists =) Feb 25 18:52:12 but never used it. Feb 25 18:52:22 odds are it never did Feb 25 18:52:28 ...work Feb 25 18:52:38 Luke-jr's 2.6.33.2 kernel (at http://forums.internettablettalk.com/showthread.php?p=954899) has fb console support. Feb 25 18:52:41 well I don't see why not, on N810 x11 actually enters much late in the picture Feb 25 18:52:43 And I can get that one to boot. Feb 25 18:52:59 hmm, ok Feb 25 18:53:06 That's what led me here - I posted a reply asking for his config, and he suggested I log on here. Feb 25 18:53:26 luke-jr: ^^ Feb 25 18:53:38 (he might be here later today, or not...) Feb 25 18:53:49 He's in the list now, though apparently not active. Feb 25 18:54:36 jhanely: which toolchain do you use to build? Feb 25 18:55:09 Does someone know how debian/optify file works? Any documentation on this? I put 'auto' to this file but seems the package created by dpkg-buildpackage isn't optified Feb 25 18:55:31 divan: only autobuilder will take care of that file Feb 25 18:55:58 divan: on your host do "fakeroot maemo-optify-deb " Feb 25 18:57:28 alterego: there? Feb 25 18:57:51 javispedro, thanks, it works. So it's supposed to do run each time I rebuild by deb? Or is there any way to make it part of deb build process? Feb 25 18:57:57 I'm building with armv6j-unknown-linux-gnueabi. Feb 25 18:58:01 moo javispedro Feb 25 18:58:13 divan: there was a maemo-buildpackage somewhere, but I don't remember where =) Feb 25 18:58:46 javispedro, ok, thanks. Feb 25 18:58:54 jhanely: I have no idea if luke-jr did, but I suggest you use codesourcery2005 (aka the one that comes with the Diablo SDK). All kernels I've built I used that. Feb 25 18:59:06 moo RST38h Feb 25 18:59:18 RST38h: saw today's slashdot article about maemo? Feb 25 19:00:21 I'll update http://wiki.maemo.org/Packaging_Qt_Creator_Apps_for_Maemo_Extras wiki page cause it mention on creating debian/optify file, but not running maemo-optify. Feb 25 19:01:22 divan: you do not need to run it if you plan to send the app to Extras. Feb 25 19:01:55 javispedro, ohh, clear! Thanks again ) Feb 25 19:02:12 hmmh Feb 25 19:02:21 javispedro, mind trying it out http://mohammadag.xceleo.org/slide2answer :) Feb 25 19:02:26 has anyone done qt-programs for n800? :) Feb 25 19:02:29 javispedro: no, were they gloating? Feb 25 19:02:42 am I doing something wrong as the window doesn't look correctly "hildonized"? Feb 25 19:02:43 RST38h: I'm still at it, http://news.slashdot.org/story/11/02/25/1556239/Nokia-and-Open-Source-mdash-a-Trial-By-Fire?from=rss&utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+Slashdot%2Fslashdot+%28Slashdot%29 Feb 25 19:02:59 Jartza: you're missing "run-standalone.sh"? Feb 25 19:03:02 meaning, the lower right part of the window is missing the "theme pieces": rounded window corner etc. Feb 25 19:03:06 javispedro: no I'm not Feb 25 19:03:32 I thought if using QMainWindow, the application should be "Hildonized" Feb 25 19:04:17 oh wait Feb 25 19:04:33 it also happens with other qt-applications Feb 25 19:04:47 hmm. bug in qt library itself? Feb 25 19:05:06 I thought that only applies to Qt 4.6 Feb 25 19:05:40 MohammadAG: the bug, or qmainwindow? :) Feb 25 19:05:48 QMainWindow Feb 25 19:05:58 Jartza: I don't remember that happening with the Sudoku sample application Feb 25 19:06:36 hmm Feb 25 19:06:48 but 4.5 is the latest "official" for n800 Feb 25 19:07:12 or atleast it was the one that was easiest to find :) Feb 25 19:07:18 I might be wrong, never had an N800 Feb 25 19:07:51 MohammadAG, I've tried slide2answer as well. The default Answer window appears and in a few seconds your slide window opens (with rotation). Sliding works though ) Feb 25 19:08:07 tbh Feb 25 19:08:14 divan, yeah, race conditions, it's intentional till I find a way to kill the stock dialog Feb 25 19:08:26 well. it doesn't really affect the application usage though, it's just annoying. Feb 25 19:08:32 I just noticed that the sample sudoku aplication does not have hildon rounded lower coners :( Feb 25 19:08:35 *corners Feb 25 19:08:41 QTimer::singleShot(500, this, SLOT(show())); Feb 25 19:08:47 I just wanted the application to look perfect like other maemo-apps :) Feb 25 19:09:16 javispedro: so it's a bug. using 4.5 or 4.6? Feb 25 19:09:25 I found that there is a 4.6 also, but I think not official Feb 25 19:09:32 Jartza: 4.5.2 Feb 25 19:09:47 ok Feb 25 19:09:57 MohammadAG, nice idea anyway ) I always afraid of pressing 'Cancel' button on the way of taking out phone from the pocket on incoming ring. Feb 25 19:09:57 same here Feb 25 19:10:34 divan, it's still in very early stages, I want it to be instant as a first Feb 25 19:10:45 and of course, change the sliders to something more appealing Feb 25 19:10:52 so the qt doesn't generate correct hildonwindow Feb 25 19:11:03 when I figure out QPropertyAnimation Feb 25 19:11:14 MohammadAG, yeah, sure. Which process starts stock dialog? Feb 25 19:11:19 rtcom-call-ui Feb 25 19:11:39 I need to kill the window itself using XUnmapWindow, javispedro really helped a lot here Feb 25 19:11:48 * sivang wonders if we are talking about fixing the accidental take call issue with rtcom-call-ui Feb 25 19:12:06 anybody knows why would latest offical NOkia update fails to install? Feb 25 19:12:14 but I have no idea how to find the window id of the rtcom-call-ui using C++ Feb 25 19:12:21 or C, doesn't matter Feb 25 19:12:40 MohammadAG: it's kind of a black art, specially considering it seems you also have to guess when it appears. Feb 25 19:12:47 hmmh. Feb 25 19:12:56 after the update I still have 10.2010.19-1 Feb 25 19:12:58 if you knew it was there you just query the X11 window tree and, well, search for it... Feb 25 19:13:03 MohammadAG, can we in some way just 'unsubscribe' this CallUI from getting DBus event? Feb 25 19:13:05 well... annoying, but maybe not that fatal Feb 25 19:13:28 javispedro, we can monitor X I guess Feb 25 19:13:28 Jartza: do you know if the script you foun for swappiness tweaks is good as Swapolube ? Feb 25 19:13:35 tweak gtk theme, to change appearance of dialer buttons Feb 25 19:13:36 s/guess/hope Feb 25 19:13:43 DocScrutinizer, that won't change signals Feb 25 19:13:54 uhih, why? Feb 25 19:14:16 cause clicked() on a button isn't the same as valueChanged(int) on a slider Feb 25 19:14:26 idk what gtk uses for the signal names, but you get the idea, I hope Feb 25 19:14:46 divan, I highly suggest we don't, call handling after answering is still handled by that Feb 25 19:14:59 wtf, I didn't say use slider, I said change the way BUTTON works Feb 25 19:15:17 so you want to change the library Feb 25 19:15:21 sivang: not sure at all Feb 25 19:15:33 and how would that not break all other buttons? Feb 25 19:15:41 i.e dialer buttons Feb 25 19:15:51 by applying that theme to dialer only Feb 25 19:16:06 the dialer buttons are part of the same binary Feb 25 19:16:17 by checking what other properties the button has, eg text.value Feb 25 19:16:23 MohammadAG, maybe worth research this way.. Disable callUI from getting signal, show own UI, and resend Answer event on slide. Feb 25 19:16:29 hey guys Feb 25 19:16:31 what's up? Feb 25 19:16:42 divan, killing the window's easier, a lot easier Feb 25 19:17:09 I wonder if X sends a signal when a window's mapped Feb 25 19:17:16 hey Venemo Feb 25 19:17:22 hi Venemo Feb 25 19:17:49 if button.text == "ACCEPT" or button.text == "REJECT" then change_appearance_to_slider Feb 25 19:17:53 Venemo: may be you know something about a pr1.3 that seems to be installing but after reboot reported version is still the previous one. Feb 25 19:17:55 Venemo: ? :) Feb 25 19:18:15 s/button/self/g Feb 25 19:18:16 DocScrutinizer meant: if self.text == "ACCEPT" or self.text == "REJECT" then change_appearance_to_slider Feb 25 19:19:18 divan: I like this. we can try and unsub callui from dbus through the server Feb 25 19:19:30 divan: kill it's subscrition or service file.. Feb 25 19:20:02 divan: thing is, how will rtcomm-call react when it loses dbus subscription.. Feb 25 19:20:29 hmm Feb 25 19:20:35 sivang, how it reacts? Feb 25 19:20:43 trial and error? Feb 25 19:20:48 divan: yes, it might do stupid thing like reboot the device or so , who knows.. Feb 25 19:21:01 reboot2answer Feb 25 19:21:02 divan: maemo has an interesting notion of 'vital' stuff. Feb 25 19:21:16 merlin_N900: yes, that would be the way. Feb 25 19:21:37 * SpeedEvil wants a thingy that pops up the unlock screen when there is an orientation change, the prox sensor goes on->off, and there is light. Feb 25 19:21:40 so we need to kill its sbscription, and then disallow it from connecting (i forgot how that's done) Feb 25 19:22:00 SpeedEvil: ohh slick Feb 25 19:22:18 :-) Feb 25 19:22:21 worth to try. Killing X window looks too hackish for me. I believe killing window will cause auto call cancellation. Feb 25 19:22:24 * sivang searches the wiki for pr1.3 issues Feb 25 19:22:30 divan, no Feb 25 19:22:33 already tried it Feb 25 19:22:39 divan: the whole thing is WAY TOO hackish Feb 25 19:22:41 Oh - that reminds me of a brosrr issue. Feb 25 19:22:43 divan: they are seperate Feb 25 19:22:46 Browser. Feb 25 19:22:49 Listen to music. Feb 25 19:22:49 and changing gtk libraries isn't? Feb 25 19:22:54 Switch to browser. Feb 25 19:22:55 Oke ) Feb 25 19:22:56 Lock screen Feb 25 19:23:04 divan: e.g. in process and archi Feb 25 19:23:05 all approaches are hackish, till they open source the dialer Feb 25 19:23:12 Use volume buttons to change volume - nothing happens. Feb 25 19:23:40 MohammadAG: +1 to try and kill it's dbus subscription, make it unauthorized to subscribe and sub our own process Feb 25 19:23:41 heh Feb 25 19:23:50 MohammadAG: actually tweaking GTK theme isn't Feb 25 19:24:07 it's perfectly inside what GTK is meant to do Feb 25 19:24:09 sivang, there's a risk you'll break call handling Feb 25 19:24:17 SpeedEvil: it is for zooming :) Feb 25 19:24:20 DocScrutinizer, I'm not a gtk expert, feel free to do it Feb 25 19:24:24 well, except maybe the check for self.test Feb 25 19:24:30 * sivang curses pr1.3 Feb 25 19:24:41 self.text Feb 25 19:25:58 frankly, nobody here is expert for dialer<->telepathy/telephonystack communication either, so I don't see the fundamental difference Feb 25 19:26:15 sivang: yes - but with the screen locked - the user clearly does not want to zoom Feb 25 19:26:56 I'm not cloning telepathy handling DocScrutinizer Feb 25 19:27:04 and when I hear "killing X windows" and " try and unsub callui from dbus through the server" - sorry I get goosepimples and start to shudder Feb 25 19:27:20 I'm only redoing the answer dialog, when you answer, it's handled over to rtcom-call-ui Feb 25 19:27:29 then don't use it DocScrutinizer Feb 25 19:27:38 we had the discussion yesterday, let's not do it again Feb 25 19:28:57 your rationale is as wrong as the overclocking-app devels' - "I insist in coding broken-by-design potentially dangerous (911 calls) BS, don't use it if you don't like" Feb 25 19:29:38 SpeedEvil: right Feb 25 19:29:49 MohammadAG: We can at least try Feb 25 19:29:56 umm, wtf are you talking about Feb 25 19:30:00 MohammadAG: just to see what happens Feb 25 19:30:01 this doesn't stop 911 calls Feb 25 19:30:03 javispedro: ? Feb 25 19:30:10 not for long though Feb 25 19:30:17 this doesn't kill rtcom-call-ui Feb 25 19:30:31 this only changes the answer dialog Feb 25 19:32:44 MohammadAG: ooh it doesn't??? what's going to happen when you are at a 911 call and a inbound concurrent call is knocking? what's going to happen when slider-dialog pops up over the current established call dialog, and then you kill X? are you really sure it's a brilliant idea to mess around with communication between call-ui and telepathy, just to change look of a button? Feb 25 19:32:49 alterego: yeah I'm getting a call atm so I'm busy too, we'll talk later Feb 25 19:33:26 DocScrutinizer, go read the code before arguing on BS facts Feb 25 19:33:27 javispedro: okay, I'll ping you again when I'm free. Feb 25 19:33:30 and stop spreading crap Feb 25 19:34:03 where did I say I was killing X, or telepathy, or rtcom-call-ui Feb 25 19:34:06 MohammadAG: go learn system design fundamentials before corecting me on BS assumptions of yours Feb 25 19:34:38 system design fundamentals assume the phone app is open source, your argument is invalid Feb 25 19:35:11 your argument is Feb 25 19:35:19 and everybody can see that Feb 25 19:35:19 what is the argument Feb 25 19:35:24 nobody calls 911 Feb 25 19:35:24 * Sc0rpius senses some kind of tension in this channel Feb 25 19:35:26 nobody cares Feb 25 19:35:44 nobody's fucking with 911, see? you're spreading BS DocScrutinizer Feb 25 19:35:47 and 911 doesn't even work here Feb 25 19:36:17 anyway, to answer your question Feb 25 19:36:26 what's going to happen when slider-dialog pops up over the current established call dialog Feb 25 19:36:29 jacekowski: stfu, why are you adding to the BS spead here? Feb 25 19:36:32 it's 112 in europe Feb 25 19:36:39 DocScrutinizer: for lulz Feb 25 19:36:39 you either answer, or reject, it's not rocket science Feb 25 19:36:48 hehe Feb 25 19:37:00 and if you answer, you're sent back to rtcom-call-ui by rtcom-call-ui Feb 25 19:37:15 no one's killing X Feb 25 19:37:54 "it's not rocket science" said the inventor of the rocket chair, prior to blasting himself to pieces Feb 25 19:38:09 a proofpic? Feb 25 19:38:27 what are you trying to do Feb 25 19:38:28 I'm not making a rocket chair, that's not rocket science either :) Feb 25 19:38:29 * dm8tbr prefers rocket-surgery Feb 25 19:39:07 jacekowski, I'm not trying to, http://i51.tinypic.com/2zgdefq.jpg Feb 25 19:39:21 no, you are coding a text editor by adding custom functions to spreadsheet cells, so each cell holds one of your chars Feb 25 19:40:17 MohammadAG: what are these sliders doing? Feb 25 19:40:30 jacekowski, slide to answer and slide to reject Feb 25 19:40:43 what every resistive touchscreen phone has Feb 25 19:40:52 make it a one slider Feb 25 19:41:08 but well, i don't see a problem there Feb 25 19:41:16 that's what some dude actually did, as only thing he knew was spreadsheet (actually excel). Same here, you don't know GTK so you're implementing an abomination of overwhelming comlexity and unknown side effects, to do something that could be done in a straight and easy to evaluate way by just using the right tools Feb 25 19:41:29 jacekowski, design is still a concept Feb 25 19:41:48 hm... what's going on here? Feb 25 19:41:58 i don't see anything it could mess up Feb 25 19:42:03 that would be life critical Feb 25 19:42:04 what's the straight and easy way? Feb 25 19:42:21 unless you consider a lost call life critical thing Feb 25 19:42:28 ah Feb 25 19:42:30 but then you shouldn't be using mobile phone in first place Feb 25 19:42:30 it won't lose you a call Feb 25 19:42:33 I could disassemble the code and fix the button but that would be illegal Feb 25 19:43:01 I don't want to patch anything Feb 25 19:43:19 otherwise I'll just change hildon-desktop and get rid of the HILDON_STACKING_LAYER bit that javispedro found Feb 25 19:43:21 so I'll describe the problem at hand: csd or someone else (MohammadAG could say) emits a d-bus signal, rtcom-call-ui catches it and after N cycles shows a window. This window has a X11 property that causes h-d to pin it on top Feb 25 19:43:21 I don't even know what the problem is actually Feb 25 19:43:40 jacekowski: it could mess with established calls for example, when a second call comes in. Just occurs to me after 10s of thinking Feb 25 19:43:42 csd, yes Feb 25 19:43:43 MohammadAG wants to replace the window with his own, in order to X stuff Feb 25 19:43:46 Sc0rpius, the problem is we need to kill stock Answer dialog. Feb 25 19:43:53 why Feb 25 19:43:55 javispedro, I can show on top of it Feb 25 19:44:06 but I'd need to know when it's created Feb 25 19:44:12 the stock dialog lags, a LOT Feb 25 19:44:15 DocScrutinizer: i don't have call waiting Feb 25 19:44:16 jacekowski: just becuase you don't see anything doesn't mean it's proven to not be there Feb 25 19:44:18 DocScrutinizer: i don't see a problem Feb 25 19:44:19 my dialog shows before it Feb 25 19:44:38 jacekowski: so you are free to use this abomination Feb 25 19:44:39 DocScrutinizer, it can answer a second call Feb 25 19:44:49 again, don't spread BS before reading code Feb 25 19:45:42 why don't you just replace stock dialog with your own Feb 25 19:46:07 isn't that what I want to do? Feb 25 19:46:07 that shouldn't be hard to call couple functions in context of stock dialer Feb 25 19:46:12 jacekowski: rtcomm-call-ui is closed aiui. Feb 25 19:46:19 javispedro, that doesn't stop him Feb 25 19:46:22 but you can attach to it with ptrace Feb 25 19:46:22 remember his fmtxd Feb 25 19:46:28 MohammadAG: if you dare to once more aout your shit, you'll have to live with the consequences. I'm not spreading BS, you do. I'm not oblighed to read your abomination sourcecode to state obvious things here that are RIGHT just BECAUSE they don't relate to any sourcecode Feb 25 19:46:46 if you don't want to read code, stfu Feb 25 19:47:01 it's not even killing anything right now Feb 25 19:47:18 kill it with a fire Feb 25 19:47:49 so the discussion here is which option is most hackish: hacking Gtk+ theme to emulate "HildonButton"'s signals and behaviours while showing a GtkSlider, creating an app that listens to signals and hides the stock window, or patching the rtcomm-call-ui binary? Feb 25 19:48:02 liquid nitrogen Feb 25 19:48:10 scratch the last option javispedro Feb 25 19:48:25 MohammadAG: you are acting like a stubborn child. I refuse to argue any further with you. I tried to teach you something, but you insist in knowing everything and don't need any good advice, while praising your soure like the holy book. I'm fed up with that Feb 25 19:48:27 s/patching/intercepting gtk+ calls with ptrace in the/ Feb 25 19:48:28 javispedro meant: so the discussion here is which option is most hackish: hacking Gtk+ theme to emulate "HildonButton"'s signals and behaviours while showing a GtkSlider, creating an app that listens to signals and hides the stock window, or intercepting gtk+ calls with pt... Feb 25 19:48:34 I'm acting like a child? Feb 25 19:48:43 well, rtcomm-call-ui if we want to support only voice calls should be simple to hack Feb 25 19:48:49 we had the discussion yesterday, let's not do it again Feb 25 19:48:53 you continued to spread bs Feb 25 19:49:16 you have no off switch, you continue to argue till ignored Feb 25 19:51:01 maybe we'd need to build a patched dbus to be able to "intercept" signals =) Feb 25 19:51:23 but why :/ Feb 25 19:52:26 we could use LD_PRELOAD Feb 25 19:52:38 * Sc0rpius still doesn't know what the problem is Feb 25 19:52:46 that's what Doc's suggesting Feb 25 19:52:52 MohammadAG: while I disagree with DocScrutinizer in that it will cause children to die and 911 calls to be missed, the current code would have to continually poll the X11 tree after the signal is emitted looking for the (unfortunately not very specific) rtcomm-call-ui window Feb 25 19:53:00 and polling sucks. not to mention. Feb 25 19:53:12 yeah battery life Feb 25 19:53:14 er... not to mention the potential for race conditions. Feb 25 19:53:16 will be reduced Feb 25 19:53:29 you can fix that later on Feb 25 19:53:33 Sc0rpius, for 5s of "Incoming call" time? Feb 25 19:53:34 with simple ld_preload hack Feb 25 19:53:45 Sc0rpius: not very worried about that, more about that it will introduce CPU time at a moment where the system is already taxed (incoming call) Feb 25 19:53:52 that too Feb 25 19:54:12 but what I really wonder is, what the objective is, what button bothers you Feb 25 19:54:23 Sc0rpius: read above. this is a "slide to answer" project. Feb 25 19:54:29 I agree about the cpu thing Feb 25 19:54:32 i wonder if n900's are being sold in droves on ebay ... /me goes to check Feb 25 19:55:46 slide what, the keyboard? Feb 25 19:55:56 no, a slider Feb 25 19:56:06 like the one you slide when you press the power button? Feb 25 19:56:12 Sc0rpius: yep. Feb 25 19:56:12 to unlock the phone Feb 25 19:56:16 hmmm Feb 25 19:56:16 yeah Feb 25 19:56:31 and why would anyone would want that? pressing the answer button is easier Feb 25 19:56:40 -would Feb 25 19:56:53 while I'm already used to it, one of the first complains in wild usage of the N900 is accidental call answers Feb 25 19:56:58 I mean what's the motivation Feb 25 19:57:02 ohhh Feb 25 19:58:07 its too bad the n810 doesnt have microphone and speaker positioned so it could be used as a SIP handset Feb 25 19:58:18 that would make it a useful piece of technology still Feb 25 19:58:20 i kinda liked it for taht =( Feb 25 19:58:28 i wish i could get another one =( Feb 25 19:58:56 one what ? n810? Feb 25 19:59:03 yah Feb 25 19:59:21 MohammadAG: maybe hit -devel, and see if anyone has an idea for overriding the UI. Otherwise... Feb 25 19:59:23 i like the n810 hardware way better than the n900 Feb 25 19:59:29 but ... it cant be used as a phone Feb 25 19:59:33 thats annoying Feb 25 19:59:38 b/c if it could .. id still use it Feb 25 19:59:47 javispedro, I'm not killing the stock dialog Feb 25 19:59:51 .. just another failure of insight by nokia Feb 25 19:59:53 atm Feb 25 19:59:55 so it's a race Feb 25 20:00:07 lets give it a sip stack ... but not make the hardware usable as a handset Feb 25 20:00:10 wtf?? Feb 25 20:00:13 MohammadAG: yeah, but that makes it unusable I guess, with half the calls getting slider and the other half don't =) Feb 25 20:00:14 classic nokia Feb 25 20:00:22 I think I got it. The version meta package fails to install as the upgrade does not automaticlalyl installs all the qt deps Feb 25 20:00:57 javispedro, again, I hope no idea how to get the Id in C Feb 25 20:00:59 * javispedro ponders why I have a .txt in my $HOME that says "Please insert the BeOS Boot CD to continue". I guess I need to cleanup more often.. Feb 25 20:01:01 * sivang tries installing the qt deps by hand through HAM Feb 25 20:01:10 what I would do is Feb 25 20:01:12 hehe Feb 25 20:01:16 javispedro: how did you get this? :) Feb 25 20:01:18 get the telepathy-ring source code from MeeGo Feb 25 20:01:20 nfi. Feb 25 20:01:36 modify it to Maemo and replace the closed one Feb 25 20:01:41 anybody idea if my assumption could be truie? has this happened to someone else already ? Feb 25 20:01:41 modify the dbus call Feb 25 20:01:46 and make your own answer dialog. Feb 25 20:01:48 that's what I would do Feb 25 20:01:51 i never wanted to use the n810 as a phone, and as a tablet it was phenominal. now it's dead Feb 25 20:02:04 telepathy-ring is open in MeeGo already as far as I know Feb 25 20:02:10 I mean, it gave this window stlye 'updating' in 'text mode' with the Nokia logo on FB Feb 25 20:02:13 Sc0rpius <-- cpt. obvious =) however, that is WAY of a larger project. Feb 25 20:02:16 (after reboot) Feb 25 20:02:22 and ten it rebooted again and went up. Feb 25 20:02:25 and the speakers were amazing Feb 25 20:02:32 *MSWindows Feb 25 20:03:43 you think it's larger? Feb 25 20:04:07 Sc0rpius: meego uses ofono, maemo doesn't Feb 25 20:04:19 hmm right. Feb 25 20:04:37 so you then have to pull meego, you have to pull the complete meego dialer ui, you have to pull half of meego, and you've just reinvented cordia. Feb 25 20:04:48 hehehe Feb 25 20:05:10 then send an email to somebody in Nokia requesting to open telepathy-ring because "It's opened in MeeGo anyway" hehehe Feb 25 20:09:42 so Ofono instead of CSD... Feb 25 20:13:55 ofono works on maemo Feb 25 20:14:01 At least, it has worked Feb 25 20:14:06 Anyway, bbl Feb 25 20:26:42 ~ping Feb 25 20:26:43 ~pong Feb 25 20:31:39 hm. my damn n900 seems on the frits Feb 25 20:37:47 Sc0rpius: that's exactly what johnwil's wiki update and jaffa's initiative is all about Feb 25 20:38:44 actually reading the telepathy-ring thing seems to be very well layered Feb 25 20:39:06 people would only need to change the "modem" source directory that interacts with ophone and rewrite that layer for CSD Feb 25 20:39:27 I'm not sure if it's a LARGE project like javispedro says... I would have to research and read code a little more Feb 25 20:39:44 Sc0rpius: though even then we don't have a significant part of all the knowledge needed on how to handle niche cases on dialer-ui, so a foss replacement will still be a poor crappy PoC at best Feb 25 20:39:50 I meant with "ofono" Feb 25 20:41:38 nite guys Feb 25 20:41:57 what's the recommended way to record video on n900/maemo? Feb 25 20:42:10 someone the height of the screen without the default hildon topbar Feb 25 20:42:13 in px? Feb 25 20:42:22 55 afaik Feb 25 20:42:34 allright thanks :) Feb 25 20:46:30 npm, do you mean code for recording video or what? Feb 25 20:49:06 actually I even like the idea to replace closed apps with opened apps that look the same Feb 25 20:49:16 all the call management is terrible Feb 25 20:49:25 take another phone or your landline and call right now to your N900 you will see: Feb 25 20:49:35 1.- The screen lights up without you even touching it Feb 25 20:49:47 2.- Like 2 seconds later you can see the actual incoming call dialog Feb 25 20:50:11 3.- You already have heard a ring in your landline/other phone and thought "the receiver hasn't seen the call yet" Feb 25 20:50:15 all that crap has to change Feb 25 20:58:44 divan: for code i can use a qtmobility example... i was looking for an example of a working app. (i recently thought i could shoot video w/ the n900 and when i tried the various camer apps i'd installed, none did video) Feb 25 20:58:46 DocScrutinizer: Who are our current Qt gurus? (sans Python) Feb 25 20:59:24 ljpotter? Feb 25 20:59:53 RST38h: the fact that i'm stuck at "Warning: [Main]: QSqlDatabase: QSQLITE driver not loaded" means i'm not a guru.... Feb 25 21:00:17 (not on maemo but meego-lem) Feb 25 21:00:27 npm: No need to interject then. Feb 25 21:41:12 ...when Chinese supercomputers shun American-made x64 processors and GPU co-processors and start using their own energy-efficient, MIPS-derived, x86-emulating Godson line of 64-bit processors... Feb 25 21:42:44 MIPS-derived. Heh. Feb 25 21:43:26 oh well. guess there is a tablet-encode mencoder wrapper Feb 25 21:43:29 that's awesome Feb 25 21:45:10 MIPS. sigh. Feb 25 21:46:04 PSP! :p Feb 25 22:35:56 hi Feb 25 22:36:17 is there a MU* client for the N900 other than TinyFugue? Feb 25 22:38:57 yeah Feb 25 22:38:58 telnet Feb 25 22:39:18 anything made specificly for use with MU*s? Feb 25 22:39:42 whats MU* Feb 25 22:39:46 Heh. I almost gave the 'telnet' answer, but thought it'd be an unhelpful answer. Feb 25 22:39:53 MU* is Muds, mucks, etc. Feb 25 22:41:09 screen supports telnet and tty Feb 25 22:41:13 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mu* Feb 25 22:42:02 I'm a muck user, though I long ago wrote a web interface to my muck. Saves me the trouble of finding a decent client. Feb 25 22:42:34 microB isn't very good for typing text... Feb 25 22:44:03 It works for me, though I rarely muck from the tablet. Mine's an n810, so it might not be quite the same as the n900 in that respect. Feb 25 22:44:47 would gnome-MUD be easy to port? Feb 25 22:45:17 javispedro: I use vanilla GCC Feb 25 22:45:36 TiagoTiago: all M* clients suck anyway. :p Feb 25 22:45:42 lol Feb 25 22:45:47 why? Feb 25 22:45:52 they just do Feb 25 22:45:58 tkMOO-light was the best I've seen Feb 25 22:46:01 and it's Tcl/tk -.- Feb 25 22:46:01 I was a fan of Pueblo way back in the day. Feb 25 22:46:03 and non-free Feb 25 22:46:08 For windows, of course. Feb 25 22:46:11 jhanely: Pueblo broke all sorts of standards. IE-like. Feb 25 22:46:26 I know. But it was a decent experience. Feb 25 22:47:30 For a really long time after I dumped pueblo, I used a client made in VB by a friend of mine. It was pretty good. Except for the part where it was made in VB. Feb 25 22:49:42 Luke-jr: Any thoughts on where I'm going wrong with building my kernel? Feb 25 22:50:12 jhanely: hmm, not sure. did you try the n8x0_defconfig from the sources I posted? Feb 25 22:50:48 I tried the n8x0_defconfig from the vanilla kernel. I'll check the ones you posted. Feb 25 22:51:20 what about clients written in Python? Feb 25 22:51:34 I haven't tried any. Feb 25 22:52:08 TiagoTiago: Python wouldn't be much better than VB Feb 25 22:52:23 More portable at least, I'd hope. Feb 25 22:52:27 jhanely: what compiler? I was using Gentoo stable ARM native Feb 25 22:52:27 really? why? Feb 25 22:52:40 TiagoTiago: cuz Python sucks :p Feb 25 22:52:49 jhanely: Python has no GUI API, so not likely. Feb 25 22:53:01 maybe if you combined it with PySide, but then it's hybrid Python+Qt Feb 25 22:53:13 Me too - Gentoo arm native, as well as cross-compiling from my gentoo desktop. Feb 25 22:53:54 doesn't Python got it's own GUI system ? Feb 25 22:54:08 There are libraries for Python to use QT, GTK, etc. Feb 25 22:54:14 So you'd have to use one of those. Feb 25 22:54:43 TiagoTiago: no? Feb 25 22:55:38 I guess you could build your own widgets and whatnot in python. That'd mostly be a waste of time though. Feb 25 22:57:34 Maybe a better question would be: TiagoTiago: Why are you unhappy with TinyFugue? Feb 25 23:00:32 sorry, crashed, did i miss anything? Feb 25 23:00:52 Maybe. I asked what makes you unhappy about tinyfugue. Feb 25 23:02:56 i gotta go find a text file and manually edit it for it even recognize the enter key, and probably will still need to memorize text commands to control the client on top of the commands used in the MU* Feb 25 23:03:26 Ack. That's pretty bad. Feb 25 23:09:05 Huh. In the sources you posted, Luke-jr, there's both an n810_defconfig and an n8x0_defconfig. This looks like a job for vimdiff. Feb 25 23:09:14 ☺( Feb 25 23:09:22 Say what now? Feb 25 23:09:26 ☺ Feb 25 23:09:43 Ah, how could I have missed that. Looks like funny characters. Feb 25 23:10:17 * jhanely checks his irc client's unicode support. Feb 26 00:01:21 Is there anything i can do when a program got text fields and other GUI elements only a few pixels tall? Feb 26 00:02:57 tiagotiago, squint. file a bug with the dev Feb 26 00:03:38 this one is written in python if that makes a difference Feb 26 00:04:06 the program isn't made with the N900 in mind Feb 26 00:05:33 It might be caused by a DPI setting or something. Not sure what you can do to fix it. Feb 26 00:11:10 http://sourceforge.net/projects/spyrit/ <- it's this one i'm having issues with right now Feb 26 00:13:06 it seems it does use QT... Feb 26 01:03:16 Anyone heard of possiilities to change the IMEI? (For good, honestly) Feb 26 01:06:33 SpeedEvil: tell me if you find one Feb 26 01:08:27 what's that keyboard shortcut that forces a program into portrait mode? Feb 26 01:09:01 xrandr -o left ? Feb 26 01:09:59 It was some key combo in the physical keyboard of the N900 Feb 26 01:17:30 ('for good' = I want to get a smashed blackberry, and clone the IMEI, and use a 'blackberry only' plan Feb 26 01:19:49 pupnik: time for some cuticle care. :P Feb 26 01:20:54 everybody says that Feb 26 01:21:17 it's a freakin microscopic macro Feb 26 01:21:31 i've been told to 'use hand lotion' Feb 26 01:22:14 GeneralAntilles: did you see DocScrutinizer's n810 speaker pics? Feb 26 01:22:42 it explains well why the n810 has such great sound - the resonant chamber is large enough to magnify midrange frequencies Feb 26 01:23:04 SpeedEvil: IMEI is living in a config area in cmt flash, it can't be accessed without communicating to cmt OS Feb 26 01:23:50 ergo you can change it if you know what to tell cmt OS to change the setting for you Feb 26 01:25:16 calypso has a secret AT cmd for changing the IMEI, which is protected by crypto measures Feb 26 01:26:41 dunno if BB5 has a secret cmd, or you need a image of the config area with correct signature, to flash that similar to the way you flash the cmt OS itself Feb 26 01:32:09 in theory you could change the flash content via JTAG access, if there's JTAG available for that. But still you need to know what exactly to change, and odds are the complete config page in flash is checksummed Feb 26 01:35:09 Nokia gave me a certificate that my device's IMEI has changed when they gave me a replacement device. I wonder if they consider changing the imei as not possible Feb 26 01:36:26 errrr, how's that related? I guess the IMEI change cert is to prove you've not done any fraud Feb 26 01:38:35 pupnik: yes, use hand lotion. *g* Feb 26 01:38:38 Great picture, though. Feb 26 01:39:04 pupnik: add some information to the description Feb 26 01:42:36 Well I mean I'd rather they'd moved the imei to the replacement Feb 26 01:42:47 DocScrutinizer: Thought so. Feb 26 01:43:16 ShadowJK: Interesting. Feb 26 01:43:51 Because if they changed imei, I'd get angry birds back Feb 26 01:43:51 is there a way to force a program to go fullscreen (loose the title bar and use the full vertical span of the screen) ? Feb 26 01:46:31 ShadowJK: setting IMEI is a well kept secret algo in fab calibration software, it's not available at repair desk Feb 26 01:49:14 ShadowJK: even if you can't change IMEI, you could always (theoretically) send something else in place of it Feb 26 01:50:46 yeah, I guess the method/function to ask for IMEI can be patched to fake any arbitrary one Feb 26 01:52:16 so, while OTA is using correct IMEI, the APE is seeing whatever you want it to see Feb 26 01:53:18 I'd suggest to check/monitor dbus and pnatd invocation Feb 26 01:54:05 and check if angry birds maybe is linked against libisi or siblings directly Feb 26 01:55:06 is there a way to force a program to go fullscreen (loose the title bar and use the full vertical span of the screen) ? Feb 26 01:55:21 yes Feb 26 01:55:40 how can i do it? Feb 26 01:55:50 you can see ovi-maps doing that (and I haze it) Feb 26 01:55:54 hate* Feb 26 01:56:09 xterm does as well Feb 26 01:56:19 xchat does Feb 26 01:56:24 No, i mean, force a program that doesn't got that function builtin Feb 26 01:56:37 nah Feb 26 01:57:15 alas hildon has no generic window-property-settings Feb 26 01:57:27 like KDE for example has Feb 26 01:58:01 It sounds like the type of thing that would be done by running a terminal command after the program is launched, or by using an special launcher program Feb 26 01:58:15 yeah Feb 26 01:59:33 but then, what's going to happen to the program's menu (if there's any)? Feb 26 02:00:00 would become innacessible while it is fullscreen Feb 26 02:03:32 thanks GeneralAntilles Feb 26 02:04:01 i would like to take pics of products... it's not hard Feb 26 02:04:24 you just make sure that the basic lighting is ok, and things are sharp Feb 26 02:04:35 if you want to get fancy, do a little 'composition' Feb 26 02:05:31 when things work out really well, like that pic, the beauty of the object just shines through Feb 26 02:05:48 when i realized how the speaker works, i was like beautiful... Feb 26 02:05:54 which pic? :) Feb 26 02:06:08 the n900 speaker pic Feb 26 02:06:28 http://i.imgur.com/9VbG6.jpg Feb 26 02:06:39 ah Feb 26 02:06:58 you can see the reflections of the copper on the baffling Feb 26 02:07:24 and the contrast range between front to back turned out perfect Feb 26 02:07:30 no photoshop/gimp needed Feb 26 02:07:37 baffling? Feb 26 02:07:49 Do you know if the tech requirements and the shape of the speaker modules match the ones on any other Nokia device? Feb 26 02:07:51 the flexible portion Feb 26 02:08:07 TiagoTiago: there is a supplier that claims compatible modules Feb 26 02:08:15 http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=70322 Feb 26 02:08:38 Are theirs any better than the factory ones? Feb 26 02:09:55 i don't know Feb 26 02:10:23 making soundwaves requires space Feb 26 02:10:51 you mean for the speaker "cone" to move? Feb 26 02:10:54 i'm just building my own desktop planar speakers Feb 26 02:11:08 no for the speaker cone to create a sound pressure wave Feb 26 02:11:25 if you set such a speaker out in the open air, it is almost inaudible Feb 26 02:11:55 if you only move a very small bit, but do it very fast, isn't it the same as moving a bigger distance slower? Feb 26 02:12:14 i don't think i can explain speakers in irc Feb 26 02:12:20 lol Feb 26 02:12:23 :) Feb 26 02:12:37 don't know the words for the concepts? Feb 26 02:12:49 i have a few books on the concepts Feb 26 02:13:08 let me compress them Feb 26 02:13:10 1381370183750387183057831 Feb 26 02:13:12 there you go Feb 26 02:13:19 lol Feb 26 02:13:56 is that the IBDN or whatever, the code of the book? Feb 26 02:13:59 TiagoTiago: broadly - no. If you move a little bit very fast, you have a very short time of total movement. This means a high pitch Feb 26 02:14:15 TiagoTiago: So you can output high frequencies well. But not low ones Feb 26 02:14:38 oh, i see Feb 26 02:14:58 well, what if you use some form of pulse encoding? Feb 26 02:15:01 * nox- now has nubert nubox 381 which sound `good enough' for me (but they dont fit in a phone :) Feb 26 02:15:57 which ones nox- --- Feb 26 02:15:59 show pix Feb 26 02:16:18 http://www.nubert.de/index.php?action=product&id=2&category=1 Feb 26 02:16:36 TiagoTiago: A great idea, now how do you redesign your ears to be compatible with it Feb 26 02:16:52 nice choice nox- - you have taste Feb 26 02:17:04 i would love to hear them Feb 26 02:17:09 yeha i like them too :) Feb 26 02:17:26 No need, that is how those open air plasma speakers (like those using giant tesla coils) work Feb 26 02:17:45 i dont have `golden ears' but i also dont like `bruellwuerfel' :) Feb 26 02:17:47 TiagoTiago: It's really not. Feb 26 02:17:49 nox-: these were mine, silk dome - good deal http://www.jumbosunshade.com/review/mgr_e2020_1.jpg Feb 26 02:18:03 pupnik: need a sharper camera, though. ;) Feb 26 02:18:16 They don't encode the audio frequency as pulse length or density? Feb 26 02:18:18 TiagoTiago: Also - open air plasma speakers _suck_ for bass too. Due to the same reason - the swept volume is tiny Feb 26 02:18:32 nox-: now i have these http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?PHPSESSID=22jeajagkcg4b6ovc247q2okvcmesv37;action=gallery;sa=view;id=12850 Feb 26 02:18:53 TiagoTiago: No. They heat the air plasma which then heats and cools rapidly, expanding and contracting. Feb 26 02:18:59 looks expensive :) Feb 26 02:19:23 TiagoTiago: They may use PWM, or some other means of modulating the current - bit this is only to set the average current. Feb 26 02:19:23 cheap for the sound... Feb 26 02:19:34 hehe Feb 26 02:20:04 My current audio solution is a thinkpad X61S base. Feb 26 02:20:17 * SpeedEvil needs to hook up his amp properly. Feb 26 02:20:20 I thought they just modulated the thunderclap, and the human ear or brain just blended the individual sudden sounds together Feb 26 02:20:35 TiagoTiago: not really. Feb 26 02:20:43 It's pretty much linear Feb 26 02:20:50 nox-: a german company is the only one in the world making these drivers - hold a sec Feb 26 02:20:54 More current -> Hotter plasma, larger. Feb 26 02:21:19 kinda like how gray tones can be made of alternating light and dark lines Feb 26 02:22:58 yes Feb 26 02:23:39 so you're saying the soundwaves come out curvy instead of being a bunch of spikes close together? Feb 26 02:24:36 Pretty much Feb 26 02:24:47 Wow Feb 26 02:26:46 Small speakers should still be able to produce square or sawtooth waves at lower frequencies, no? Feb 26 02:28:25 no Feb 26 02:28:40 Since we're talking about speaker designs, tell me what you think about this one i've come up with: Feb 26 02:28:43 nox-: i got the drivers :)_ http://i.imgur.com/WtpWg.jpg Feb 26 02:29:08 Broadly, to make sound, you need to make pressure waves. Feb 26 02:29:14 but brian cheney vastly improved them Feb 26 02:29:22 This means you need to make air flow. Feb 26 02:29:34 like a firecracker Feb 26 02:29:43 ir a fart escaping from a fat lady Feb 26 02:29:46 To have any low frequencies, you need to move air for a long time Feb 26 02:29:49 that is sound Feb 26 02:30:29 you can make some sound with a pin moving back and forth at 20 hz Feb 26 02:30:34 but nobody can hear it Feb 26 02:30:37 There are 4 drivers, one on each corner of a single flat sheet (plastic, metal or whatever), about the size of the N900 screen, each can work indenpently for 4ch sound and together for the bassier range Feb 26 02:31:03 pupnik, :) Feb 26 02:31:15 If you have a limited volume of air you can move - say the .05cm^3 that a n900 speaker can move - you are sharply limited in low frequency response. Feb 26 02:31:21 What do you think of that idea? Feb 26 02:31:36 TiagoTiago: It dosn't really work well Feb 26 02:31:51 TiagoTiago: It works somewhat better if you put them in the middle Feb 26 02:31:53 How other Nokia devices manage such a good response in their speakers? Feb 26 02:32:03 By having more volume in the case. Feb 26 02:32:18 SpeedEvil is correct Feb 26 02:32:29 not just in the case, but in the speaker enclosure Feb 26 02:32:29 so even smaller devices got more unused space inside? Feb 26 02:32:53 TiagoTiago: why do people build big boxes for speakers? Feb 26 02:33:08 why not just wave a sheet in the air? Feb 26 02:34:18 I used to think it was cause they managed to save energy by taking advantage of the ressonance, but from what i'm being told here it seems you can't bruteforce lower frequencies out of a small speaker... Feb 26 02:35:21 Pretty much. Feb 26 02:35:49 It's exactly analogous to water waves Feb 26 02:35:58 Fill your bath. Feb 26 02:36:16 Now, it's really easy to slosh it back and forward if you get in and move your body. Feb 26 02:36:25 It's really hard if you use a pencil. Feb 26 02:36:27 if you flick a water drop fast enough it will move a lot of water when it hits more water Feb 26 02:37:05 'flicking really hard' causes distortion though. Feb 26 02:37:13 the mass-speed equivalency thing Feb 26 02:37:22 I see Feb 26 02:39:31 nice analogy SpeedEvil - pencil / tub Feb 26 02:39:50 i bet you can make 0.5hz waves with the pencil, but nobody can see them Feb 26 02:41:37 But if the tub ressonates at half a hertz eventually the waves might build up Feb 26 02:42:21 But you can't make it instantaneouslly, if you move the pencil too fast the water cavitates Feb 26 02:46:53 pupnik: and for sure you can make 1000Hz waves with your whole body, but I bet that hurts ;-) Feb 26 02:47:16 lol Feb 26 02:48:20 TiagoTiago: the last thing you want on a speaker are resonances Feb 26 02:50:16 actually the box volume of a bas reflex speaker (sealed enclosure type) is carefully tuned with the "spring force" and mass of the speaker cone, to eliminate the resonance frequence of the speakerdriver alone aka free-air Feb 26 02:50:27 I thought the speakers were made with big wooden boxes exactly for resonance... Feb 26 02:51:10 yeah, exactly for eliminating one resonence with another identical one, to use a simplified explanation Feb 26 02:51:14 Same thing for that highend speaker that got a nautilus shell for the woofer Feb 26 02:51:47 I thought it was to amplify certain frequency ranges for "free" Feb 26 02:52:02 au contraire Feb 26 02:53:49 but, as pupnik said, it's really not possible to explain the whole complex topic of speaker operation princibles and physics here in IRC Feb 26 02:54:20 not even a single flavor of them Feb 26 02:54:35 not to start with horns and transmission lines Feb 26 02:54:45 I'm understanding everything so far Feb 26 02:55:21 the basic problem is: bass is "louder" than treble Feb 26 02:56:10 I.E. you have to move a lot more air, and also need higer presures, while a treble sound has all it's energy in velocity Feb 26 02:56:22 like plue light is more aggressive than red Feb 26 02:56:26 blue* Feb 26 02:57:34 that's why you always got huge bass speakers and tiny tweeter domes Feb 26 02:59:34 an engine with 5L has same power like an engine with 0.1L, if you run the small engine at 50 time the RPM Feb 26 02:59:53 (well, not really, but it's quite intuitive) **** ENDING LOGGING AT Sat Feb 26 02:59:57 2011