**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Sat Mar 05 02:59:57 2011 Mar 05 03:00:02 DocScrutinizer: think about the ram for resident programs Mar 05 03:00:29 if it had 1GB ram then no problem .. but 256m .. damnit Mar 05 03:00:54 last time SpeedEvil checked, the diff between bash and busybox memory footprint wasn't really significant Mar 05 03:01:23 any idea how i can fix my N900 (messed up Accounts' acounts, lots of programs CTDing on launch ) without reflashing? Mar 05 03:01:26 with all libs and accounting for all programs served by busybox? Mar 05 03:01:34 TiagoTiago: sorry Mar 05 03:01:45 TiagoTiago: replay your backup :P Mar 05 03:02:05 don't got one recent enough :( Mar 05 03:02:11 mine strangely doesnt boot with usb connected .. something is borked Mar 05 03:02:21 but i dont want to reflash Mar 05 03:02:25 cehteh: progs served by busybox are temporary, so memusage is irrelevant Mar 05 03:02:56 rebooting with the charger on often doesn't work every since one or two power kernel versions ago Mar 05 03:03:11 yesh Mar 05 03:03:22 Why do Android idiots call dding a .img to an SD card burning. . . . Mar 05 03:03:43 pff Mar 05 03:03:47 haha Mar 05 03:03:53 exiting hot stuff for java progammers :) Mar 05 03:04:11 or maybe they thought about cds? Mar 05 03:04:14 in germany there's an answer to that "vermutlich brennt ihnen der Kittel" Mar 05 03:04:23 hehe Mar 05 03:05:09 which roughly translates to "their suit is burning" Mar 05 03:05:14 what is the terminal command to launch microB? Mar 05 03:05:35 err, some dbus magic Mar 05 03:05:49 i wanna see if it is spitting any errors Mar 05 03:06:04 oops, that won't work this way Mar 05 03:06:19 try browserd Mar 05 03:06:42 meh, browser Mar 05 03:07:19 great, the wall charger isn't providing enough power to charge... Mar 05 03:07:48 ouch Mar 05 03:08:29 what you're doing on that device? downloading HD video streams via UMTS and playback it on device? Mar 05 03:08:43 * GeneralAntilles pounds head on desk. Mar 05 03:09:00 i think somthing might have gone really wrong physicly, no idea what Mar 05 03:09:02 They're like small, broken children. Mar 05 03:09:14 GeneralAntilles: better fetch a huge hammer to adjust that andridiot device Mar 05 03:10:04 * GeneralAntilles needs a MeeGo image. Mar 05 03:10:25 gonna try shutting down and leave it charging to full, if you don't see me around for a few days i'm probably looking for a new N900 or a repair service that can outdo Nokia (which is probably not that hard) Mar 05 03:10:28 cya Mar 05 03:16:38 Seriously. Mar 05 03:17:13 another android fan is born ;-P Mar 05 03:18:54 This makes me so much more depressed about Nokia's recent strategic changes. Mar 05 03:18:55 * GeneralAntilles rages. Mar 05 03:21:50 eveningk Mar 05 03:26:37 pupnik, howdy. Mar 05 03:26:48 hi GeneralAntilles Mar 05 03:27:14 playin with e71 and e72 right now. in some ways they're quite nice, in other ways they're like a straightjacket Mar 05 03:27:45 symbian doesn't even let you change your keyboard layout Mar 05 03:27:51 Playing with Android right now. Mar 05 03:27:56 what device Mar 05 03:27:56 I want to put ice picks in my eyes. Mar 05 03:28:02 lol why Mar 05 03:28:13 NOOKColor Mar 05 03:28:20 'Cause it was cheap and I want to put MeeGo on it. Mar 05 03:28:38 how is the display in bright light? Mar 05 03:28:50 Dunno yet. Mar 05 03:28:52 Only had it in dark. Mar 05 03:29:23 e71 and e72 in sexxy black http://i.imgur.com/hchk0.jpg Mar 05 03:30:26 GeneralAntilles: so basically it's a standard lcd display? Mar 05 03:30:30 IPS Mar 05 03:31:02 price? Mar 05 03:32:05 lcuk: http://paste.debian.net/109618/ (apt.get wrapper to keep a log) Mar 05 03:34:40 200 Mar 05 03:36:23 lire Mar 05 03:37:56 well, saving devices by replacing andridiot by anything better is a oble thing for sure :-) Mar 05 03:38:06 noble* Mar 05 03:40:33 DocScrutinizer: have you managed to swap one of those camera modules without the special nokia tool? Mar 05 03:41:14 it's clipped in there pretty good - i can't see how to loosen it Mar 05 03:42:04 never tried it Mar 05 03:42:25 I guess there's a reason they offer a special tool for that Mar 05 03:43:32 looks like e72 and n900 share the same 5.0 mp camera Mar 05 03:43:39 maybe not Mar 05 03:43:51 probably there are latches down the bay, and you need to push them back by pushing down a thin thing between cam and bay on all 4 sides Mar 05 03:44:23 Ugh Mar 05 03:45:05 nokia wants me to pay 30-50 euro to at a nokia service center to change symbian keyboard layout Mar 05 03:45:10 lol Mar 05 03:45:29 muhaha Mar 05 03:45:50 well, maybe with swap of keymat Mar 05 03:46:15 yeah well i have to swap-in a german keymat here http://i.imgur.com/hchk0.jpg Mar 05 03:46:23 beautiful devices though - just feel great in the hand Mar 05 03:46:49 so um Mar 05 03:47:07 one of the companies I do work for had a crisis today and I bailed them out Mar 05 03:47:15 CEO sez he owns me an iPad 2 Mar 05 03:47:25 which probably sucks due to Apple crap, but what else is comparable? XD Mar 05 03:48:17 how about something preferable Mar 05 03:49:09 pupnik: doesn't look like the keymats would match Mar 05 03:49:29 they are different keymats yes, i'm just repairing the e72 Mar 05 05:26:49 ok, charger working again, programs launching again Mar 05 05:27:01 still got issues with Accounts Mar 05 05:28:05 gonna try set the passwords again Mar 05 05:31:36 Ok, working again; any idea why the passwords were all gone? Mar 05 05:56:52 dealing with closed-source phones really is a pain in the behind Mar 05 06:06:31 nah, it's mere fun ;-D Mar 05 06:08:04 actually I didn't manage to find out why my 6210 sometimes broke on sending DTMF - though I tried ~10 years to find a pattern/cause Mar 05 06:08:53 don't worry, live with it. You can't change it anyway Mar 05 06:10:46 * DocScrutinizer cackles on meego developers edition and the call for coounity participation. Sure, now everything changes to the better, now that Nokia officially participates Mar 05 06:11:20 s/coounity/comunity/. Mar 05 06:18:06 @council: who of you will be available for another term, i.e. for re-election for council? Who definitly won't? Mar 05 06:18:41 GeneralAntilles: what's up with you? Mar 05 06:35:14 "in france you are only allowed to use WLAN indoors" Mar 05 06:36:29 zee french!... Mar 05 06:36:29 wow, e72 feaures 'remote sim mode' Mar 05 06:36:31 lol Mar 05 06:42:05 lol? wow! *doubts* Mar 05 06:42:35 host, client, or both? Mar 05 06:42:55 via BT, via FBUS, via WLAN? Mar 05 06:43:39 could you please start pnatd in xterm and see what it answers to AT+CSIM? Mar 05 06:43:42 ;-P Mar 05 06:48:53 just reading the docs DocScrutinizer Mar 05 06:49:02 (indoors) is a tent indoors? is usage on a balkony indoors? Mar 05 06:49:20 heh Mar 05 06:49:44 from this http://nds1.nokia.com/phones/files/guides/Nokia_E72_UG_en.pdf Mar 05 06:51:17 meh, French. Where the techblogs don't know mini-USB from micro-USB Mar 05 07:03:52 If ignorance is not an excuse for the law, how do we explain Congress? Mar 05 07:33:43 Didn't the french pass a law forbiding people from choosing how to dress above the neck? Mar 05 07:34:41 Someone should do a ninja parade there with hundreds of people covered from head to toe in black stealth ninja suits.... Mar 05 07:36:46 !offtopic Mar 05 07:37:16 a parade of ninjas would be hard to see Mar 05 07:37:18 Imagine the news footage, riot police facing off a batallion of ninjas! Mar 05 07:37:53 with a* Mar 05 07:38:23 maybe the n950 will have dual-wifi cards for mesh networking Mar 05 07:39:30 have you heard of "super wifi"? Some people wanna use wifi over analog TV frequencies to go further and deeper with the same wattage Mar 05 07:39:47 cool Mar 05 07:40:01 reflections suck Mar 05 07:41:08 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Super_WiFi Mar 05 07:42:26 ty TiagoTiago - very interesting Mar 05 07:44:26 yw Mar 05 07:46:57 I wonder if it woud be possible to control the sending of bits to the point of tricking analog TV receivers into recognizing the signal as images and/or sounds Mar 05 07:54:51 DocScrutinizer, if only mini-USB and micro-USB was the only problem Mar 05 07:55:05 hah Mar 05 07:56:13 for them the rumored specs of the n950 is official Mar 05 07:56:23 and it s also a mini usb :) Mar 05 07:57:45 "in france you are only allowed to use WLAN indoors" <<< nope ... you can paid to get a licence, or use restricted paid to use wlan from phone carrier Mar 05 08:02:15 * khertan_ try a new ide for Python Dev ... Aptana studio ... 5 min to agree that it s not for me ;) (1min to load a simple python file on a quad core i5 with 8Go of ram and file located on a ssd) Mar 05 08:05:02 n950 : http://www.notebookcheck.net/AMD-Phenom-II-X4-N950-Notebook-Processor.37490.0.html Mar 05 08:05:04 ;) Mar 05 08:07:21 http://www.meego-os.fr/public/Meego/.N950-2010_m.jpg <<< -- original n900 concept Mar 05 08:07:39 Hello, yall!!!! Could someone help me with a bricked phone? Mar 05 08:08:27 * dm8tbr hands some mortaar Mar 05 08:10:15 Kinda on topic; how challenging would it be to design a device similar to the N900 that has a main processor being an ARM but also got a coprocessor that is based on the x86 architecture, with the device being capable of using binaries copiled for both ARM and x86 processors, multitasking, without needing to booth into alternate OS to switch architecture? Mar 05 08:10:16 I created the thread today http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=70657, I managed to install the FIASCO then the EMMC without rebooting. But the Maemo doesnt boot :( Mar 05 08:10:42 ops Mar 05 08:13:25 did you verify the download of the firmware to see if it matches with the file provided online? Mar 05 08:14:41 TiagoTiago: skip the copro, go for qemu :) Mar 05 08:15:15 won't qemu reduce the performance significantly? Mar 05 08:17:48 I'd like to see benchmarks. preferably for a hardfloat qemu Mar 05 08:20:01 Whats qemu? Mar 05 08:20:26 I checkedsum the files they are normal Mar 05 08:20:31 Identical Mar 05 08:23:04 it's an emulator capable of emulating systems in several different architectures Mar 05 08:26:50 Ohh, I wanted to try maemo really bad :( . Mar 05 08:27:52 * dm8tbr thinks gfvirga confuses two separate conversations Mar 05 08:28:01 indeed Mar 05 08:28:26 sorry, I better sleep Mar 05 08:28:28 see youu Mar 05 08:28:50 ok... Mar 05 09:41:07 Morning, all Mar 05 09:41:24 GeneralAntilles: Sorry, was busy yesterday - didn't see it. Will do it today, though Mar 05 09:42:19 is there a way i can make Hildon ignore child windows of a program, letting me choose to have the main window focused even when the childwindow tries to be on top? Mar 05 09:50:37 Anyone? Mar 05 10:04:57 balls :( Mar 05 10:32:09 is there a way i can make Hildon ignore child windows of a program, letting me choose to have the main window focused even when the childwindow tries to be on top? Mar 05 10:58:34 oh well, i'm heading off, cya Mar 05 11:44:52 Anyone done anything with QML & the accelerometer (i.e. QtMobility.sensors) Mar 05 11:46:14 cue complaints about high cpu usage Mar 05 11:47:17 Well, indeed. Mar 05 11:47:23 Just testing something for now Mar 05 11:48:05 "module "QtMobility.sensors" is not installed" - gah Mar 05 11:48:47 Jaffa, what are you trying to accelerate? :P Mar 05 11:53:25 lcuk: Playing with latest Qt SDK and thinking of targetting Symbian, Maemo and MeeGo. But there're still annoying gaps. Mar 05 11:54:06 Jaffa, are you remaking attitude? Mar 05 11:54:18 Yeah Mar 05 11:54:26 Something nice and simple to start with Mar 05 11:54:26 cool beans Mar 05 11:55:03 Developing the QML is relatively straightforward (although the designer now doesn't like it since I've pulled in Accelerometer). But getting it deployed and running on an actual device is too frustrating. Mar 05 11:55:30 I had one of my N900s hooked up to a 42" HDTV last night in a pub and let people write messages using MyPaint for a mates' birthday. Mar 05 11:56:16 haha alterego :D Mar 05 11:56:35 Went down really well. Mar 05 11:56:35 simple lowest common denominator Mar 05 11:57:22 alterego, last time I had n900 hooked up to a projector Mar 05 11:57:32 my cats went mental for lines being drawn on the wall Mar 05 11:57:48 Hahah Mar 05 11:58:03 Something around http://wiki.forum.nokia.com/index.php/Latest_Qt_and_Qt_mobility_evaluation_on_Maemo perhaps Mar 05 11:59:17 Jaffa, will you be able to do the same sort of rotation and custom drawing you have in attitude? Mar 05 11:59:27 ie for the horizon and scale guide lines? Mar 05 12:01:45 lcuk: I *think* so Mar 05 12:01:50 haha Mar 05 12:01:52 lcuk: And I think I can do it all in QML Mar 05 12:02:07 the simpler ones you could make end up looking like what I did in liqbase as a first step Mar 05 12:03:00 http://liqbase.net/liq.20090830_175314.liqaccelview_alternative1.scr.png Mar 05 12:03:02 like that Mar 05 12:03:20 ie, that does not involve rotation or 3d but will simply show your code is working etc Mar 05 12:03:25 * Jaffa has the sky, ground & angle display done Mar 05 12:03:51 sweet Mar 05 12:05:43 Jaffa, did you see any of the tweets I did from yesterday, had a twitter guy follow me from @Dubai_villa and went looking at them, absolutely breathtaking stuff on the Palm island! Mar 05 12:05:56 Yeah, shiny. Been there :-) Mar 05 12:06:07 nice Mar 05 12:06:12 where did you stay? Mar 05 12:08:23 The Al Jameiriah Beach, IIRC Mar 05 12:08:38 Next to the big tall hotel on the beach which is the posh one in all the adverts Mar 05 12:09:05 Yeah, it was: http://www.jumeirah.com/hotels-and-resorts/destinations/dubai/jumeirah-beach-hotel/ Mar 05 12:11:31 nice Jaffa Mar 05 12:11:46 whats nice? Mar 05 12:12:06 Jaffa, did you see any of the tweets I did from yesterday, had a twitter guy follow me from @Dubai_villa and went looking at them, absolutely breathtaking stuff on the Palm island! Mar 05 12:12:06 Yeah, shiny. Been there :-) Mar 05 12:12:06 nice Mar 05 12:12:06 where did you stay? Mar 05 12:12:06 The Al Jameiriah Beach, IIRC Mar 05 12:12:08 Next to the big tall hotel on the beach which is the posh one in all the adverts Mar 05 12:12:10 Yeah, it was: http://www.jumeirah.com/hotels-and-resorts/destinations/dubai/jumeirah-beach-hotel/ Mar 05 12:12:29 jonwil, ^ Mar 05 12:12:38 nice Mar 05 12:13:10 I wish I could go on holidays to somewhere nice :( Mar 05 12:13:30 why wish? Mar 05 12:13:38 no money Mar 05 12:13:43 :P Mar 05 12:13:51 Its called "N900s are expensive" Mar 05 12:14:18 contracted? Mar 05 12:15:30 nope, my N900 is outright purchase Mar 05 12:16:09 well at least you won't have high upkeep Mar 05 12:16:26 yeah I am on really cheap plan Mar 05 12:17:26 still can't see how or why N900 are expensive when you have bought it outright lol, I suppose you can now look forward to saving money up to travel Mar 05 12:17:52 The N900 cost me about $500 Mar 05 12:17:59 thats AU$ Mar 05 12:18:17 a lot cheaper than what I paid, plus mine is on contract lol Mar 05 12:18:39 Plus I had a holiday recently (xmas time) Mar 05 12:18:50 Went to the Gold Coast to see the family Mar 05 12:19:17 not bothered to also meetup with other maemo users floating around in qld? :D Mar 05 12:19:25 This was BEFORE I had the N900 :P Mar 05 12:19:55 lol well I guess you can now look forward to saving money up then :) Mar 05 12:20:06 I have other things to save for Mar 05 12:20:09 and you DID have a holiday lol, not working endlessly Mar 05 12:20:12 like my LEGO habit Mar 05 12:20:33 heh Mar 05 12:20:43 jonwil: That was a work jolly Mar 05 12:21:05 lucky thing working for someone who pays for you to go to places Mar 05 12:21:31 Although I bet they only pay for the crappiest cheapest seats on the plane :P Mar 05 12:22:58 hey better than nothing :) Mar 05 12:23:02 yeah Mar 05 12:23:12 it depends on the airline as well Mar 05 12:23:20 jonwil, your workplace offers INSIDE seats? Mar 05 12:23:36 I have never worked anywhere that paid for travel Mar 05 12:23:59 or that required work travel at all for that matter Mar 05 12:24:32 Junior software engineers dont get to travel for work :) Mar 05 12:27:02 jonwil, first thing you should do then is find out how to remove the "Junior" from your percepted job title Mar 05 12:27:24 right now I am between jobs and will take whatever I can get Mar 05 12:27:44 There is a lack of jobs around here unless you have 3+years in Mar 05 12:28:00 * lcuk nods Mar 05 12:28:58 Maybe the Linux skills I am learning from playing with my N900 will help me land a job... Mar 05 12:29:36 its a laughable farce the .au IT jobs. They outsourced basic IT and demand heaps for higher up management roles Mar 05 12:29:49 The #1 problem with the Austrlaian Mar 05 12:29:59 Australian IT industry are Recruitment Firms Mar 05 12:30:40 99.9% of the jobs I have applied for, my CV has vanished into a black hole at a recruitment firm Mar 05 12:31:28 though if you are on the dole and have enlisted yourself to one of their recommended recruitment agencies, they tend to keep pushing you before they try and refer you into a job if you happen to be lucky enough Mar 05 12:31:54 I have one of the govt jobsearch agencies helping me out Mar 05 12:32:21 but the jobs we apply to end up in the aformentioned black hole Mar 05 12:33:25 A google for "it recruitment perth" reveals a laundry list of companies, many of whom I have sent my CV to for one or more jobs and none of which I have ever heard back from... Mar 05 12:35:17 has happened to me before in qld, and I still end up not being in IT field, gotta love it.. kinda makes me think of tradies, you go through uni/tradesmanship and they try to place you in the job, otherwise the jobs tell you to get fucked Mar 05 12:36:09 these firms are useless Mar 05 12:36:22 it takes them year to find somebody if you are an employer Mar 05 12:36:35 and it takes them year to respond if you're and employee Mar 05 12:36:40 that's how they make money :) Mar 05 12:36:59 that's why i avoid any offers that don't lead directly to company Mar 05 12:37:08 jonwil, if you could find a way to show an employer that you would be as motivated in a real job as I have seen you recent weeks around maemo then you will have no trouble Mar 05 12:37:19 I am going getting dressed, cyas later \o Mar 05 12:37:35 jonwil are you in perth ? Mar 05 12:37:40 yes Mar 05 12:37:43 Perth Mar 05 12:37:49 hmm, an aussie Mar 05 12:37:52 me too Mar 05 12:37:54 i work with one aussie Mar 05 12:38:02 he's soooooooooo annoying Mar 05 12:38:08 and he's a moron Mar 05 12:38:11 we all are! Mar 05 12:38:17 ._. Mar 05 12:39:01 whats your python skills like ? Mar 05 12:39:03 jonwil, what is your linkedin address? Mar 05 12:39:11 Not on linkedin Mar 05 12:39:18 and I dont know the first thing about Python Mar 05 12:39:23 ok Mar 05 12:39:28 for a tech person, have a go, build up a profile Mar 05 12:39:35 linkedin is like a dick size content Mar 05 12:39:38 tbh Mar 05 12:39:58 in other words a site to measure one's dick? Mar 05 12:40:06 yeah Mar 05 12:40:08 lol Mar 05 12:40:22 Oh wait, I do know one thing about Python that I picked up at one job I worked, I do know that Python on Windows is a pain in the ass :P Mar 05 12:40:26 I've never used it Mar 05 12:40:32 it is a way to easily and recognisably share info easily even over irc Mar 05 12:40:36 Donmt really plan on doing it either. Mar 05 12:40:46 interesting way to put it, I've seen a few linkedin profiles but I never made a linkedin profile myself Mar 05 12:40:56 Unless someone seriously suggests it. Mar 05 12:41:05 :| Mar 05 12:41:16 * lcuk suggests it Mar 05 12:41:34 and the boat was missed :) Mar 05 12:41:36 after many people asked me to do the same when I was in similar situation Mar 05 12:41:36 Had 3 jobs since getting my degree, the first was a 6 month student internship with Motorola working on the phone software (basically it was 6 months full time paid work that was also a university unit) Mar 05 12:41:45 it helped just to write down and fill in details :) Mar 05 12:42:27 anyway, clothes Mar 05 12:42:32 apt-cache search shirt Mar 05 12:42:46 The second job was doing software development for a university research operation doing genetics research Mar 05 12:43:34 so jonwil I gather you are looking for work in perth ? What's your main skillset ? I am not a recruiter - been in Perth IT since 80's (was with Sun for 9 years in the 90's) and am exiting the IT industry, but have lots of contacts and people are always asking me for people. Mar 05 12:43:59 I am really good with C Mar 05 12:44:01 and C++ Mar 05 12:44:11 Also Win32 API programming Mar 05 12:44:18 ok cool. UI or low level stuff ? Mar 05 12:44:29 Never written hardware drivers Mar 05 12:44:41 all userspace Mar 05 12:44:58 ok, what about database, server stuff ? Mar 05 12:45:05 or gfx. Mar 05 12:45:14 DirectX I can do Mar 05 12:45:27 and probably OpenGL Mar 05 12:45:32 although I havent done any GL for a while Mar 05 12:45:46 I also have GOOD skills with x86 assembler Mar 05 12:45:55 ok will keep that in mind. My main gfx contacts are 2d/print oriented. Mar 05 12:46:20 asm is a bit too low level for any of my contacts ;-) Mar 05 12:46:28 I have no art or design skills whatsoever :) Mar 05 12:46:50 couldn't use Photoshop to save my life :P Mar 05 12:46:56 no probs, most people don't ;-) But most people can't code for nuts either ! Mar 05 12:47:38 Not really a web guy either, dont know that much about Javascript or HTML Mar 05 12:48:36 jonwil: how good are you with asm? Mar 05 12:49:01 If its 32bit x86 user space, VERY good Mar 05 12:49:05 eworks.pl/~mag7/revme1.zip Mar 05 12:49:08 so basically c/c++ user space, and a good understanding of gfx. Likes his N900, and how do you rate you server exposure (not web) and linux/unix skills Mar 05 12:49:18 try reversing that Mar 05 12:49:33 I have a Gentoo box sitting next to me Mar 05 12:49:37 that I set up myself Mar 05 12:49:55 and I am learning more about Linux Mar 05 12:50:40 Note that my people skills (when interacting with customers or non-technical people) are non-existant Mar 05 12:51:19 yeah that's fine. Most aren't good to start with ;-) Mar 05 12:51:28 I have no problems using a command line (either windows or linux) Mar 05 12:51:29 I guess that's a bit of a side effect of being a geek :) Mar 05 12:51:36 how about embeded stuff ? Mar 05 12:51:55 I cant do all the fancy advanced shell script stuff though Mar 05 12:52:04 Also I can learn new stuff fairly quickly Mar 05 12:52:22 Never had any real exposure to embedded stuff beyond mobile phone bits Mar 05 12:52:23 hey I am definately a geek, but people think I am lovely to talk to, when I don't tell them they're a wanker Mar 05 12:52:35 and even then, its been higher level and not drivers or hardware Mar 05 12:53:10 what where you doing in the genetics stuff, number crunching, pattern matching ? Mar 05 12:53:33 Mostly it was manipulating various DNA sequences Mar 05 12:54:06 Although not that much was done (because the guys doing the actual science never bothered to talk to us about what they needed or whether what we were doing was what they wanted) Mar 05 12:54:41 ok, large data sets (did you use HDF5 or any of that sort thing ?) Mar 05 12:54:52 never heard of HDF5 Mar 05 12:55:05 sorry to grill you, just trying to get a feel breadth of exposure. Mar 05 12:55:10 no probs. Mar 05 12:56:09 That was all C/C++ with QT Mar 05 12:56:14 on linux Mar 05 12:56:20 ah ok. Mar 05 12:56:59 The genetics work was with the Center For Comparative Genomics at Murdoch Mar 05 12:57:06 any threaded heavily parallel stuff ? Mar 05 12:57:08 ok. Mar 05 12:57:22 no experience with threading Mar 05 12:57:26 well minimal Mar 05 12:57:38 I know most of the win32 API calls for it Mar 05 12:58:03 My most recent job (the third) was with the Disability Services Commission Mar 05 12:58:30 and involved working with something called SQL Server Reporting Services Mar 05 12:59:16 Any exposure to linq ? Mar 05 12:59:20 nope Mar 05 12:59:21 as part of that ? Mar 05 12:59:28 A bit of VB.NET work Mar 05 12:59:39 well there was exposure to LINQ Mar 05 12:59:42 in that it was used Mar 05 12:59:46 but I dont know how to use it Mar 05 12:59:51 ok Mar 05 13:00:08 Never used it myself. Mar 05 13:00:12 I did some Java programming back in uni (desktop stuff only, not the server side) Mar 05 13:00:25 Not sure how far Java has changed since I did it though Mar 05 13:00:44 hey, LINQ is awesome Mar 05 13:01:07 a lot more api's . I started with java before it was called java inside sun, back at the end of 1994. Its gotten a whole lot of cruft since then ;-) Mar 05 13:01:24 Java as a language is great Mar 05 13:01:38 Java as a set of APIs isnt too bad Mar 05 13:01:54 The only problem with Java is the political and legal crap surrouding it Mar 05 13:02:05 and all the fights between IBM, Oracle, Apache, Google etc etc etc Mar 05 13:02:20 far too many. Just have a look at all the database api's JDO, JPA, objectify ........... python is much nice ;-) Mar 05 13:02:35 btw I am 100% against software patents Mar 05 13:02:36 and yep way too much politics Mar 05 13:02:53 s/nice/nicer/ Mar 05 13:05:21 oh well I will be lurking here. Very much into my N900. Not taking on any more contracts, and just gracefully exiting IT, so if I see anything interesting will let you know. Mar 05 13:07:30 I am also extremely good at reverse engineering, debugging and problem solving Mar 05 13:08:08 About the only technologies I wont touch is Microsoft Access and Sharepoint Mar 05 13:08:20 Oh and anything involving a God of some kind is out :P Mar 05 13:08:41 lol Mar 05 13:10:19 I havent set foot inside a religious institution since highschool and I am not about to start now Mar 05 13:10:24 Venemo, did you end up releasing test build of puzzle master for the n8x0? Mar 05 13:10:42 jonwil, linkedin also allows you to write what you are strong and positive about Mar 05 13:11:08 oh and one more thing, I dont have car or drivers license Mar 05 13:11:21 zutesmog, what are of IT were you involved with? Mar 05 13:11:29 area * Mar 05 13:11:53 jonwil, still interesting to see that you have set yer eyesight on a VY ute :) Mar 05 13:12:07 lcuk, it is in Diablo's extras-devel :) Mar 05 13:12:11 :) Mar 05 13:12:12 been consulting/contracting since 2001. Sun, Linux, web backends. Re-acrhictected a 2d renderer (which was built in C++ and delphi) Mar 05 13:12:13 why would I need a car when Perth has such an excellent bus system Mar 05 13:12:18 Venemo, that is great stuff. Mar 05 13:12:25 lcuk, all the recent releases built OK for both Fremantle and Diablo Mar 05 13:12:30 infact, that is how I thought Qt apps would be Mar 05 13:12:33 and spent the last 2 and a bit years doing mainly appengine Mar 05 13:12:35 Delphi, that brings back memory Mar 05 13:12:37 er VZ, not VY, just recalled those small lights Mar 05 13:12:41 memories Mar 05 13:12:48 lcuk: only drawback is that Diablo release doesn't have any fancyness, since the animation framework came in Qt 4.6 Mar 05 13:13:08 Venemo, fancyness does not matter on a low spec machine Mar 05 13:13:24 people prefer something basic and working than not being able to use it at all Mar 05 13:13:36 lcuk: that's what I thought when I did this :) Mar 05 13:13:40 :) Mar 05 13:13:42 for details, see http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=69454 Mar 05 13:15:10 zutesmog, cool stuff Mar 05 13:15:15 what did you use your 2d renderer for? Mar 05 13:16:23 printing signs. SignIQ is the product. The renderer was originally written in toolbook. I proved (with a prototype) we could take the same templates and build our own renderer. The built the team, and designed the architecture. Mar 05 13:16:47 we got some massive performance/stability improvements. Mar 05 13:17:12 nice Mar 05 13:17:19 and delivered the new rendere on time ;-) Mar 05 13:17:22 DocScrutinizer: I'm not running. Mar 05 13:17:41 * DocScrutinizer prods GeneralAntilles Mar 05 13:18:16 hello Mar 05 13:18:25 zutesmog, so you rendered to printer Mar 05 13:18:49 or was it to screen/projector too? Mar 05 13:19:04 device context, (supplied to the C++ renderer from a delphi front end) so we could render bitmaps, postscript etc.. Mar 05 13:19:25 cool Mar 05 13:19:34 I wanted to go with cairo but that was considered a bit too risky (by myself too ;-) especially as it was a windows app ;-) Mar 05 13:20:18 heh yeah Mar 05 13:20:51 text on a curved path is not easy with gdi+ and the rich text formatting is not graet either. And we would scale text to fit rules. The templates can be scripted with business rules in javascript/vbscript Mar 05 13:21:15 I got python running as scripting backend as well, but we didn't ship that. Mar 05 13:21:21 heh I have wrangled windows GDI printing and rtf for years Mar 05 13:21:51 Why cant Windows have sane printing like Linux and OSX Mar 05 13:22:00 it kindof did Mar 05 13:22:06 but it was not the printing, it was the fonts Mar 05 13:22:32 since rendering to one DC for screen and switching to print actually gave different scale/results Mar 05 13:22:35 not a lot of fun is it, you can't stay in gdi+ you have to drop into gdi at times as some stuff isn't implemented. all sorts of insane things. Mar 05 13:22:36 * lcuk cursed that often Mar 05 13:23:05 yeah, we spent a seriously large amount of time resolving those differences. Mar 05 13:23:34 i was outraged when I found out .net could not actually give you an accurate pixel size for a string to be rendered Mar 05 13:23:40 and gives a best estimate Mar 05 13:23:58 (before I knew about subpixel stuff) Mar 05 13:24:40 well WPF did fix most of these kind of things Mar 05 13:24:42 yep, and try scaling it to fit in a box for each piece of text, that might need to be wrapped or not. And so have to binary search for the best fit. Mar 05 13:25:06 heh well zutesmog I endeavoured to solve that Mar 05 13:25:12 and of course none of the rich text could deal well with arbitrary rotations. Mar 05 13:25:20 can i emulate midlle mouse button? Mar 05 13:25:31 lol yeah Mar 05 13:25:38 zutesmog, http://liqbase.net/font_scale_rendering_area_2.png from years ago Mar 05 13:25:52 each box has the text as large as possible Mar 05 13:25:59 window fully rescalable Mar 05 13:26:05 was a great test of algorithm Mar 05 13:26:08 cool. Mar 05 13:26:53 see you guys around! Mar 05 13:27:07 cya later, nice chatting with you \o Mar 05 13:29:52 cya zutesmog Mar 05 13:33:54 Working with the N900 has made me realize why I dont like GTK that much Mar 05 13:37:56 jonwil, you can use Qt Mar 05 13:38:07 yeah I know Mar 05 13:39:36 so? Mar 05 13:44:34 What's wrong with Gtk? Mar 05 13:45:01 I think my main dislike of it is that on Windows its junk Mar 05 13:45:18 and the apps that use it on Windows dont feel anything like a Windows app should :P Mar 05 13:46:23 Right, so what has that got to do with Gtk on the N900? Mar 05 13:47:51 no idea :P Mar 05 13:49:05 Besides, only losers care about Windows. Mar 05 13:49:21 and people who want to make money Mar 05 13:49:23 i would have to strongly disagree out of mere principle Mar 05 13:50:37 feel free Mar 05 13:51:04 not with you though Mar 05 13:51:17 :) Mar 05 13:51:36 at least he didn't write "only loosers..." Mar 05 13:52:18 I've actually ran out of electricity sockets in my flat Mar 05 13:52:34 s/ran/run/ Mar 05 13:52:34 crashanddie_ meant: I've actually run out of electricity sockets in my flat Mar 05 13:54:30 I manage to make money without using Windows. Mar 05 13:54:41 thats great Mar 05 13:54:47 but do you have to be all religious about it Mar 05 13:55:11 dont you know that when you are trying to sell a product to someone, going about and telling them that they are losers for using their current product instead of yours Mar 05 13:55:18 is actually a quite, quite dumb business practice Mar 05 13:58:04 m'hmmmm ... Mar 05 13:58:10 Jaffa: it's about time to send out tokens for election! Mar 05 14:04:15 DocScrutinizer: See timsamoff's email on maemo-community. Mar 05 14:04:29 which one? Mar 05 14:04:43 DocScrutinizer: http://lists.maemo.org/pipermail/maemo-community/2011-March/004681.html Mar 05 14:05:00 DocScrutinizer: It's a cock up Mar 05 14:05:54 Jaffa: see my comment on this thing called errrr.... http://maemo.org/community/council Mar 05 14:07:10 >>Please make sure this time the tokens are sent out quite a few days before start of voting period. I.E. >>00:00 UTC, 2011-03-14 (Monday): Voting opens<< means: send those tokens NOW! Otherwise it gets hard again to sort out things if anything fails - which it does usually (spamfilters, whatnot)...<< Mar 05 14:08:46 The "hit by a bus" scenario hasn't been well provided for, clearly. Mar 05 14:10:31 GAN900: /me mutters Mar 05 14:11:05 What - we get to vote who to hit with a bus? Mar 05 14:11:23 * alterego wonders what it'd take TI to provide OpenCL drivers .. Mar 05 14:11:28 It'll give potential candidates more time to reconsider their plans. *g* Mar 05 14:11:30 not even the "holiday notice: 12.03. - 25.03." scenario has been taken account of. Last time quite a number of users received their tokens almost too late to use them at all, which basically makes any election moot, as it's based on equal rights for all users Mar 05 14:11:39 SpeedEvil, we already did. We voted for you. :P Mar 05 14:11:45 Fair enough. Mar 05 14:12:26 New morning and I still don't see Android's appeal. Mar 05 14:12:50 alterego: OpenCL? Mar 05 14:12:51 speaking of androids Mar 05 14:12:59 GAN900: forget it, that morning never will come... Mar 05 14:13:06 I put a motion activated R2D2 in the chocolate cupboard Mar 05 14:13:08 and waiting Mar 05 14:13:10 and waited Mar 05 14:13:10 DocScrutinizer, almost a relief. Mar 05 14:13:11 GAN900, me neither Mar 05 14:13:32 the yelp and worried run upstairs a few minutes later was classic :D Mar 05 14:14:00 Now I just need to source a cheap webOS device to confirm our mobile landscape is well and truly bleak. Mar 05 14:14:23 DocScrutinizer: What "holiday notice"? Mar 05 14:15:13 Jaffa: last elections some users were on holiday during election period and had no way to check their email 3 times a day for the token Mar 05 14:15:53 DocScrutinizer: And? The election should be postponed until every possible voter confirms their availability? Mar 05 14:16:10 they as well weren't able to do sth like a cron job for the vote, as the token wasn't sent even at the time the voting period started Mar 05 14:16:18 I think the point is tokens need to go out as early as possible. Mar 05 14:16:25 exactly Mar 05 14:16:52 Either way, not much any of us in this room can do about it. Mar 05 14:16:56 voting period is scheduled to start in ONE week Mar 05 14:17:54 DocScrutinizer: And it won't be, because there aren't any nominations because of a clusterfuck on many levels which I'm not happy about Mar 05 14:17:57 last time it took one week until I received my token, as Nokia mail was configured crappy enough to trigger 30% of spam filters Mar 05 14:18:32 DocScrutinizer: I suggest you respond to Tim's email because this isn't a conversation that should be happening here, but over there Mar 05 14:19:35 I think the post on http://maemo.org/community/council/maemo_community_council_elections_approaching/ is just good enough. No need for crossposting (except here where I can get immediate response possibly) Mar 05 14:19:52 okay, so Mar 05 14:20:24 please tell me, because I couldn't find much about the topic Mar 05 14:20:33 what has the Community Council done for us so far, in the let's say, last few months? Mar 05 14:21:00 http://maemo.org/community/council Mar 05 14:22:10 * jonwil wonders if Nokia has EVER open-sourced a previously closed source pakage for Maemo Mar 05 14:22:26 or whether license-change-requests has been a total waste of time Mar 05 14:22:33 jonwil, yes, they did it once Mar 05 14:22:39 Venemo, a great amount of coordination around the CSSU for one. Mar 05 14:22:41 for which pakcage? Mar 05 14:22:50 CSSU is coordinated by MohammadAG Mar 05 14:23:02 Venemo, CSSU is a team effort Mar 05 14:23:12 Venemo: nope, not exactly Mar 05 14:23:32 lcuk, it was started and is managed by MohammadAG Mar 05 14:23:43 Venemo: nope, not exactly Mar 05 14:23:43 MohammadAG would say exactly the same, no one person could handle all aspects of it Mar 05 14:23:52 anyway. CSSU is a good thing and I see it on the linked page Mar 05 14:24:02 however there isn't anything else. just "state of Maemo" Mar 05 14:25:14 Venemo: Read those. Mar 05 14:25:23 btw vote isn't about what recent council has done, but about what next council should do ;-) Mar 05 14:26:12 Jaffa: already did when they appeared. there is a lot of empty talk and little stuff actually happening Mar 05 14:26:16 Jaffa: no offence Mar 05 14:26:21 Venemo: Offence taken, actually. Mar 05 14:26:37 Venemo, so specifically what/how would YOU do? Mar 05 14:26:48 have you put name down? Mar 05 14:26:59 I'm not a member of the council, and I don't wish to be. Mar 05 14:27:02 Hehe Mar 05 14:27:03 Unfortunatly, Maemo council is like the OpenSolaris council and other similar organizations where there is little interaction with the parent software company Mar 05 14:27:10 We have this discussion a lot. Mar 05 14:27:50 jonwil, oh, there's plenty of INTERaction, just no action to go with it. ;) Mar 05 14:28:00 Heh Mar 05 14:28:31 Venemo: Coordinating Qt experimental so it doesn't break Qt apps in Extras; getting Maemo community members sponsored to the MeeGo conference, organising and coordinating with MohammadAG on the CSSU, acting as a point of contact for re-energising the licensing change request queue following the work done by jonwil & DocScrutinizer; clarifying maemo.org's funding status, trying to get balance the competing requirements and clamour for a community "fund", ... Mar 05 14:28:55 sounds good Mar 05 14:29:11 Jaffa, ok, that was last week, what about next week? Mar 05 14:29:35 * jonwil hopes that the licensing-change-request stuff ends up being more than just some talk by a few nokia people and that it turns into actual code we can use Mar 05 14:29:37 jonwil: Not sure how you can *quite* say that, given that qgil's acted on what we asked him to (although too early yet to know whether it was a positive outcome). It's also a *community* council, not a *Maemo* council. Mar 05 14:29:44 Jaffa: this sounds very good :) Mar 05 14:30:13 jonwil: Even efforts which don't turn into code are still valuable, and shouldn't be diminished (because then people won't go out of their way next time) Mar 05 14:30:19 Jaffa: "Coordinating Qt experimental so it doesn't break Qt apps in Extras" -> exactly what coordination is this? Qt has a binary compability promise so it will never break any existing software. what work does this require on your part? Mar 05 14:30:20 yeah :) Mar 05 14:30:43 Jaffa: "getting Maemo community members sponsored to the MeeGo conference" -> this sounds good, no complaints here Mar 05 14:31:06 Venemo, did you vote in last election? Mar 05 14:31:12 yes I did lcuk Mar 05 14:31:16 :D Mar 05 14:31:18 Venemo: Look, I'm not going to justify the last six months work I, and the others, have been doing. 1) I'm too busy; 2) I don't like having to do it. Go and read the maemo-developers threads about the Qt updates that were pushed to Extras-devel and broke everything, until the Council pushed for them to be renamed and tidied up. Mar 05 14:32:15 Jaffa: how could this happen, despite their binary compaibility policy? Mar 05 14:32:16 Venemo: I'm sure you'd appreciate a Council if/when Nokia finally do decide to save some cash in 18 months time. Mar 05 14:32:19 Jaffa, I think Venemo is merely trying to engage and spark discussion :$ albeit a little brash and sandpaperish, I think we should do the interview style thing Mar 05 14:32:41 Venemo, would you care enough to put your questions into a mail Mar 05 14:32:48 that members of the council could reply in own time Mar 05 14:32:59 Jaffa: as I said, I mean no offence. I'm sure I'd appreciate your work if I actually knew what you guys are doing. this is all Mar 05 14:33:01 in irc, it is very realtime and would make answers rushed Mar 05 14:33:44 irc is volatile Mar 05 14:34:52 Jaffa: I actually voted for you :) Mar 05 14:35:12 Venemo, same issue comes up at least every 6 months. Mar 05 14:35:23 GAN900: which is that same issue? Mar 05 14:35:31 It gets rather exhausting justifying yourself all the time. ;) Mar 05 14:35:33 Jaffa: I hope I can vote for you this time as well :-) Mar 05 14:35:41 "What has the council done useful?" Mar 05 14:35:46 GAN900, then find a way to answer the repeated questions Mar 05 14:36:06 and a way that future counciles can fill in and add to with ease Mar 05 14:36:23 ie, build on work from previous! Mar 05 14:36:25 lcuk: good point Mar 05 14:36:43 lcuk: Like "Current hot topics" on http://wiki.maemo.org/Community_Council ? Mar 05 14:37:02 lcuk, don't have to, I'm not on it! :P Mar 05 14:37:22 Anyway, the right people aren't standing (or getting elected); meaning you get one or two people being the public face of the council (because it needs doing) and 1-3 people doing all the work (because it needs doing) Mar 05 14:37:40 DocScrutinizer: Dunno yet. Not minded to let you, TBH ;-) Mar 05 14:37:43 DocScrutinizer: You run instead ;-0 Mar 05 14:37:55 GAN900: I didn't say "justify". I just had some questions. Mar 05 14:37:58 * DocScrutinizer runs and hides Mar 05 14:38:46 GAN900, in America, even former presidents still retain some title and stature :) Mar 05 14:39:00 Venemo: You may have worded your initial question like that, but then you described the blog posts as "empty words", and denied the efforts around the CSSU Mar 05 14:39:17 Jaffa: I didn't deny anything, I was asking about stuff. Mar 05 14:39:55 tbh I think the small part of community suffering from my +o and mere contributions aka rant here in irc is just enough - humanity couldn't take more than that Mar 05 14:40:04 Jaffa, indeed Mar 05 14:40:17 Venemo: "14:21 < Venemo> CSSU is coordinated by MohammadAG Mar 05 14:40:43 Jaffa, that's because thus far, I didn't know the Council was involved. Mar 05 14:40:50 Venemo: So I'll just go and delete the wiki pages, the responses on the thread, the patches, the bug triaging etc that I've been doing Mar 05 14:41:11 Jaffa: chill down please Mar 05 14:41:18 Venemo: You can't separate the Council from the members; because the Council is a way of the community saying "we like what you're doing, and what to recognise that you're doing it with our blessing" Mar 05 14:41:37 Jaffa: as I said, I'm just being curious. no offence. Mar 05 14:41:55 Jaffa: wellknown issue, a lot of people think MohammadAG has invented hostmode Mar 05 14:41:58 Jaffa: as for my wording, I'm not a native English speaker, so forgive me if my words are sometimes inappropriate. Mar 05 14:41:58 Venemo: That then gives the Council stature when dealing with Nokia or the MeeGo CO; and some authority to facilitate within the community Mar 05 14:42:12 DocScrutinizer: nah, everyone knows you invented it Mar 05 14:42:12 * RST38h politely notices that the Council is largely irrelevant Mar 05 14:42:13 DocScrutinizer, he did! :P Mar 05 14:42:24 (joking, again that was a team effort) Mar 05 14:42:54 but he did invent knight rider lights :O Mar 05 14:43:26 * lcuk goes fooding Mar 05 14:43:40 * SpeedEvil posted knight rider lights in awk aaaages ago. Mar 05 14:43:45 Venemo: I'm not (that) offended. Just trying to emphasise that the Council is a badge given to 5 community members. Currently timsamoff, achipa, myself, andy80 & revdkathy. When I do stuff for the community, am I doing it because I'm on the council or because I want to? I'd probably have worried less about the CSSU wiki pages and TMO thread if I didn't have to. Mar 05 14:45:25 RST38h, might be less true than it was before Nokia decided to take a trip to Redmund. Mar 05 14:46:50 Jaffa: that's appreciated yes :) Mar 05 14:53:21 zerojay, ping? Mar 05 14:53:34 GAN900: pong. Mar 05 14:56:07 khertan_: ping Mar 05 14:59:32 zerojay, how do I make Android slightly less useless? Mar 05 14:59:46 Is CM7 the answer I'm looking for? Mar 05 14:59:49 GAN900: Open your eyes. Mar 05 14:59:59 I'm helping port CM7 to Captivate. Mar 05 15:00:20 CM's basically straight Android with some added features. Mar 05 15:00:26 Right now I can't open them because I've put forks in them. :) Mar 05 15:00:42 What makes Android useless for you? Mar 05 15:01:40 GAN900, a 9 iron Mar 05 15:02:12 Using it is incredibly frustrating Mar 05 15:02:21 Things don't work as described Mar 05 15:02:21 RST38h suggested driving a WP7 phone, I think we should expand that (and record) seeing which phones go furthest at the driving range Mar 05 15:02:26 Like? Mar 05 15:02:40 Settings don't seem to have much effect in a lot of the third party software. Mar 05 15:02:44 So, Nook Color Mar 05 15:02:53 No hardware keys Mar 05 15:03:08 Supposed to install the SoftKeys service Mar 05 15:03:11 some android phones does come with hardware keys Mar 05 15:03:21 Most Android phones have hardware keys. Mar 05 15:03:22 motorola milestone for instance :p Mar 05 15:03:33 Can't think of any that don't off the top of my head. Mar 05 15:03:42 Want to set it up so a single press on the home hardkey brings up the SoftKey bar Mar 05 15:03:58 There's a setting for that, set it, but it has no effect. Mar 05 15:04:08 Well, there's something you have to understand here. Mar 05 15:04:13 That's not an "Android" problem. Mar 05 15:04:18 It's like Windows? Mar 05 15:04:39 Everything you have to install because the core is useless is more useless? :) Mar 05 15:05:00 You're using a hacked up alpha release on something that doesn't support it with software that isn't a part of core Android, so... Mar 05 15:05:02 sounds similar to maemo 5's case :p Mar 05 15:05:34 In other words, don't blame Android for some random app not working properly on unsupported hardware with an alpha version of the OS. :) Mar 05 15:05:50 OK, how about the fact that setting the desktop image sets it at about 1/4 resolution. Mar 05 15:06:00 See above. Mar 05 15:06:04 zerojay, example #1 Mar 05 15:06:12 And what part of the OS is alpha. Mar 05 15:06:18 CM7 is alpha. Mar 05 15:06:21 As a whole. Mar 05 15:06:31 Especially on that device. Mar 05 15:06:48 Not using CM7 Mar 05 15:06:55 On the semi-stock 2.1 Mar 05 15:07:08 Wondering if CM7 is going to be less awful. Mar 05 15:07:19 CM7 is definitely better. Mar 05 15:07:24 It's based on Gingerbread, 2.3. Mar 05 15:08:01 Desktop image also assumes you'll be using multiple screens/workspaces. Mar 05 15:08:06 So it's probably spread out over them. Mar 05 15:08:18 You can disable that... but I'm not sure if that's what you are refering to or not. Mar 05 15:08:30 Is there any way to get smooth browser scrolling. . . . Mar 05 15:09:15 You're using a Nook. Mar 05 15:09:56 OMAP3621 with 512MB Mar 05 15:10:03 You're using a Nook. Mar 05 15:10:15 Don't tell me that can't run WebKit as well as Maemo 5 runs Gecko. Mar 05 15:10:36 It should be smooth already. Mar 05 15:10:42 It's not. Mar 05 15:11:02 Scrolling is at about 6fps. . . . Mar 05 15:11:25 * GAN900 will laugh when MeeGo runs fine. Mar 05 15:11:53 Gingerbread will probably perform better but again, I don't have a hacked nook, so I can't say what can and can't be possible on that thing. Mar 05 15:12:13 FPS in general on Android is capped at 30fps. Mar 05 15:12:37 On average.. browser scrolling looks about half that. Mar 05 15:12:44 Least on my phone. Mar 05 15:12:56 It's not butter smooth, but it's far from choppy. Mar 05 15:13:01 capped by specific code, or capped because it will not run faster? Mar 05 15:13:16 It's capped in code. You can remove the cap easily as well. Mar 05 15:13:18 because on my n810 scrolling was at 33fps Mar 05 15:13:26 * jaska__ kicks nickserv Mar 05 15:13:27 The only reason the cap is there at all is to reduce CPU use, really. Mar 05 15:13:39 Looks like pulling a brick up a 2x4 covered in sandpaper. Mar 05 15:13:49 Average user wants battery life much more than 60fps. Mar 05 15:13:53 So.. makes sense. Mar 05 15:14:29 zerojay, specifically where is the cap ? Mar 05 15:14:30 And I think if you want it higher, it's a simple change for power users. Mar 05 15:14:36 ie is there code for it or documentaiton Mar 05 15:14:51 lcuk: I'm not sure. I haven't looked into it myself, just heard devs talk about it. I'll get back to you on it if you'd like. Mar 05 15:14:51 or how to unlock it Mar 05 15:15:02 it just sounds curious Mar 05 15:15:19 because with so many devices being underpowered seems more reasonable reason Mar 05 15:15:41 Seems like some devices have removed the cap already by default, like the EVO 4G. Mar 05 15:15:59 As far as I remember, it's just editing a text file and rebooting. Mar 05 15:16:11 isn't that the same as all development? Mar 05 15:16:27 just the size and number of text files varies Mar 05 15:16:30 :D Mar 05 15:17:29 It looks like it's a little more involved. Basically a custom kernel. Mar 05 15:18:03 How do I select between eMMC and SD on boot? Mar 05 15:19:46 GAN900, which device and what are you booting? Mar 05 15:21:14 GAN900: This seems to imply that there's nothing to do but have a proper file system on the card, but I don't know offhand.. never need to do it: http://www.androidpolice.com/2011/03/04/psa-please-dont-pay-80-for-a-nook-color-sd-card-that-runs-honeycomb/ Mar 05 15:22:06 Wish I could have bought a Nook Color and hacked it... they don't sell them in Canada at all. Mar 05 15:23:53 hang on, I just noticed this is maemo channel Mar 05 15:24:04 * lcuk mistook it for something else Mar 05 15:27:53 It's been something else for almost a year already. Mar 05 15:29:12 zerojay: you are canuckistani? Mar 05 15:29:29 Yep. Mar 05 15:30:13 Putting a bootable microSD in will boot it, but I'd rather be able to leave it in and choose in software. Mar 05 15:30:32 I don't know if anyone's done something like that. Mar 05 15:30:34 Damn Canadians. Mar 05 15:30:56 You send all of your crazy people down to spy on us as "tourists", don't you? Mar 05 15:31:16 Yet another area where Maemo's superior. *g* Mar 05 15:31:45 Doesn't matter when it's dead. :) Mar 05 15:31:47 yeah... all our agents are in Florida and are over the age of 60. Mar 05 15:32:11 lol Mar 05 15:32:16 No kidding. Mar 05 15:32:42 Not optimum but unassuming ;) Mar 05 15:33:00 Old and french. Mar 05 15:34:06 The CIA won't be able to decipher our bastardize "secret" language. Mar 05 15:35:10 ou est salle de bain!? Mar 05 15:35:32 Poutine. Mar 05 15:36:39 Moment later secret agent Gertrude doesn't make it and one hears "veit, ou est le napkin?!" Mar 05 15:36:58 Or French Canadians Mar 05 15:37:17 zerojay, less dead than it used to be Mar 05 15:37:25 How so? Mar 05 15:37:45 and at least it's usable day-to-day (unlike Android) Mar 05 15:38:00 Well, Nokia's not really coming out with much in the near future Mar 05 15:38:09 and there's aren't any reasonable alternatives Mar 05 15:38:20 So people will be holding on to their N900s for longer Mar 05 15:38:32 and the N900 Developer Edition is a thing now. Mar 05 15:39:40 too bad about the N9 tho Mar 05 15:39:45 it seems that one is kind of a goner Mar 05 15:39:55 It's sad seeing what's become of it all. Mar 05 15:40:00 Elop Mar 05 15:40:05 people blame elop Mar 05 15:40:10 but elop didnt make nokia fail Mar 05 15:40:10 Another damn useless thing coming out of Canada. Mar 05 15:40:20 No Mar 05 15:40:25 its not elops fault that nokia still is not competing with iphones and what not Mar 05 15:40:29 The board that put him there did. Mar 05 15:40:52 Shortsighted Finnish arrogance. Mar 05 15:40:54 the same board that also made nokia fail Mar 05 15:41:26 tihs windows stuff is just shortterm Mar 05 15:41:42 I don't think elop was the problem. Mar 05 15:41:50 Nokia's been in big trouble for quite some time. Mar 05 15:41:51 elop wasnt/isnt at all Mar 05 15:41:59 Just the result and the final nail in the coffin. Mar 05 15:42:08 but thats all speculation from doomsayers Mar 05 15:42:11 The added emphasis on Maemo being the company's savior when it was just a research project.. come on. Mar 05 15:42:32 Maemo could've beaten the iPhone to market Mar 05 15:42:40 If Nokia had positioned it to. Mar 05 15:42:42 to market, maybe, but not much more Mar 05 15:42:43 It would have been eaten alive. Mar 05 15:43:18 It'd be a different landscape if they had actually run with it. Mar 05 15:43:49 cant compare maemo to ios at all Mar 05 15:43:52 they serve different markets Mar 05 15:43:53 Instead we're faced with picking between an evil that pretends to be good, an evil that doesn't and some thing from HP. Mar 05 15:43:53 No. Mar 05 15:44:26 It wasn't ever meant to be something mainstream. Mar 05 15:44:29 Lava_Croft, could've been competition money-wise if they had actually pushed it as something other than an understaffed, underfunded research project. Mar 05 15:44:42 Good morning, infobot. Mar 05 15:44:45 but maemo would never have been a factor Mar 05 15:44:51 its for mobile computers, not smartphones Mar 05 15:44:57 Maemo 5 is damn close to something that'd make real money. Mar 05 15:45:01 nokia has nothing for smartphones, besides this windows7 thing now Mar 05 15:45:03 Exactly. Mar 05 15:45:13 smartphones aren't the future. Mar 05 15:45:20 They pushed our little project out into the spotlight because they had nothing else and they needed to look like they had SOMETHING. And I remember saying that as soon as they had something else, they would leave Maemo in the dust... and they did exactly that. Mar 05 15:45:22 Mobile computers are. Mar 05 15:45:23 they might not be, but currently they do make you money Mar 05 15:45:35 and i think even elop said the mobile computer stuff is still the future Mar 05 15:45:41 not in those words, but still Mar 05 15:45:53 but nokia isnt exactly in a position to wait some more years Mar 05 15:45:56 Not if you're running with WP7 or Android. Mar 05 15:46:06 why not Mar 05 15:46:13 development on mobile computers will not die Mar 05 15:46:41 I'm not OK with an advertising company providing my mobile device platform. Mar 05 15:46:43 Smartphones have already devoured the mobile computer. Mar 05 15:47:14 Only because the big players like the status quo. Mar 05 15:47:18 Everything the average user wants to do with a mobile device, smartphones do now pretty much. Mar 05 15:47:25 and they do it very well too Mar 05 15:47:33 Mobile computers don't funnel as much money into people's pockets. Mar 05 15:47:46 mobile computers are not for the mainstream Mar 05 15:47:49 There's little difference anymore between "mobile computers" and "smartphones" anyways. Mar 05 15:47:59 zerojay: well, the OS kind of is Mar 05 15:48:22 Linux on both sides. Mar 05 15:48:33 Command lines on both sides. Mar 05 15:48:55 and still meamo5 is like a desktop OS and android like a smartphone OS Mar 05 15:49:21 but that difference is mainly a visual one at this point. Mar 05 15:49:31 Lava_Croft, mobile computers are going to largely subvert laptops. Mar 05 15:49:33 sure Mar 05 15:49:46 zerojay, and usability. :) Mar 05 15:50:02 that is very subjective Mar 05 15:50:18 You certainly can't claim that Maemo is more useable for the average person than iOS or Android. Mar 05 15:50:29 For guys like us, perhaps. Mar 05 15:50:43 iOS is a really slick experience, for my wife Mar 05 15:50:49 to me, its just really annoying Mar 05 15:51:05 my wife laughs at the n900 and its clunky interface Mar 05 15:51:18 Dunno, every average person I've put Maemo in the hands of enjoys using it. Mar 05 15:51:22 Lava_Croft: get a divorce? :o) Mar 05 15:51:25 thomasjfox: why? Mar 05 15:51:26 :D Mar 05 15:51:35 that way I'd lose the iPhone Mar 05 15:51:39 lol Mar 05 15:51:41 and i couldnt play any games on it! :D Mar 05 15:54:07 Lava_Croft, how old are you out of interest? Mar 05 15:54:15 * khertan_ hate visual studio ... properties of project is so easy to found that i finally edit the project with an xml editor ... grrr 1h30 lost Mar 05 15:54:23 lcuk: heh? Mar 05 15:54:28 Maemo could have really gotten somewhere, but the one thing that drives a mobile OS or phone these days is the apps. Maemo just didn't have them. Mar 05 15:54:43 Is it bad to use your tablet at a funeral? Mar 05 15:55:00 Depends. Mar 05 15:55:03 Is it yours? Mar 05 15:55:07 jakemaheu, it depends - probably a bit offputting using it to fly helicopter around etc Mar 05 15:55:13 lol Mar 05 15:55:16 GAN900, my wife didn't like the ui and like his iOS one, while i found the iOS one horrible and always be lost with it Mar 05 15:55:52 I can handle iOS and not gag, but I'm just not a fan of the style nor of Apple. Mar 05 15:55:52 You still burn your hands when you cook bacon, lcuk? :P Mar 05 15:56:01 zerojay, it is all about the apps of course Mar 05 15:56:18 zerojay, depends on use case ... Android didn't well support python, iphone didn't like interpreted language like python ... so maemo have for me the best apps :) Mar 05 15:56:20 but would be even better for the required apps to be a part of the OS for a seamless experience Mar 05 15:57:13 Yeah, I agree. Mar 05 15:57:17 jakemaheu, i never burn my hands when cooking bacon Mar 05 15:57:27 I think maemo/meego has a higher ability for synergy between apps and os. Mar 05 15:57:27 suuuure Mar 05 15:57:38 i just put a rasher on my n900 keyboard, close it and play some movies and games for a bit Mar 05 15:57:40 iPhone apps are basically self contained lolly pops Mar 05 15:57:44 it even "bings" when its cooked Mar 05 15:58:01 Lava_Croft, :O you PMed the reply Mar 05 15:58:15 Same goes for Android apps, maemo/meego apps are real applications in the same sense that a desktop app is a fully blown application. Mar 05 15:58:21 alterego: What scares me is seeing that mentality crossing over to desktops. Mar 05 15:58:30 lcuk, Any new stuff coming to liqbase? Mar 05 15:58:32 We can also introspect much deeper. Mar 05 15:58:40 alterego, that has its own problem with desktop app startup times Mar 05 15:58:40 ;) Mar 05 15:58:57 And integrate and provide our own interfaces to our own services for everyone else. Mar 05 15:59:01 zerojay, it s already in progress look at the content of the mac storre Mar 05 15:59:11 lcuk: well sure, there are obviously short comings. Mar 05 15:59:11 khertan_: That's what I'm talking about. Mar 05 15:59:30 jakemaheu, I tweak as I can, been concentrating on proper OS for a bit, here is recent screenshot to give idea of what I have been upto: http://liqbase.net/liq.meego.r&d.n900.and.ideapad.fullspeed.20110220_011.jpg Mar 05 15:59:34 YOUHOU !!!! Python for 4D pass the test ! Mar 05 15:59:36 Yihha ! Mar 05 15:59:44 if my app depends on qt libs to compile, do i need to include qt libs in Build-Depends in deb control file for the autobuilder or are they allready there? Mar 05 15:59:45 i can now code in python inside 4D Mar 05 15:59:45 :) Mar 05 16:00:02 trx: yes Mar 05 16:00:04 zerojay, because it didn't have support from the manufacturer Mar 05 16:00:19 jakemaheu, that photo shows what I thought MeeGo would have - true balance and scalability from handset up Mar 05 16:00:27 trx: you should put all the -dev packages you need to compile in that field. Mar 05 16:00:31 That's a function of shipping a usable devkit and shipping more than a million or two devices. Mar 05 16:00:50 The difference between Nokia supporting and not supporting the platform. Mar 05 16:00:53 alterego i only need .so's Mar 05 16:00:58 jakemaheu, all the UI in liqbase is now using my handwriting :) truly personal apps Mar 05 16:01:11 alterego do i still need to include them? Mar 05 16:01:12 "encrypted" text Mar 05 16:01:45 trx: you need headers to compile your application, those are in -dev packages, debian packaging will work out the libs you need itself. Mar 05 16:02:02 alterego i dont use C headers, i have my own headers Mar 05 16:02:24 lcuk, that's epic :D Mar 05 16:02:32 jakemaheu, it is a start. Mar 05 16:02:37 trx: So you're not using Qt? Mar 05 16:03:01 alterego i am using Qt but i have pascal bindings Mar 05 16:03:11 so i only need the .so's to be there Mar 05 16:03:33 trx: well, your pascal bindings should depend on Qt then .. Mar 05 16:03:49 And you should depend on your bindings. Mar 05 16:04:12 ok, thank you alterego Mar 05 16:04:20 np Mar 05 16:04:36 GAN900: (smartphone !=future, mobile computers == future) well, tell that Nokia and meego team. Maemo was targeted at "desktop look and feel, and performance, on your handset" . Meego handset UX clearly isn't. And for the other poster claiming there's little diff tween smartphones & laptops: that's true for UX when done right, it's not exactly correct for low level system requirements, as a tablet or PC still isn't define Mar 05 16:04:36 d as always on, running several days from one battery, with resume latency <<0.5s Mar 05 16:05:54 trend doesn't seem to prioritize multi-day battery life. Mar 05 16:06:02 sadly yeah Mar 05 16:06:52 well, I guess consumers get what they ask for, people are more interested in performance than multi-day battery life Mar 05 16:07:21 haha Mar 05 16:07:47 if you build using principles of optimisation and minimalism, then those users with heavy patterns get what they want and the people who want long idle life get that too Mar 05 16:07:59 yup Mar 05 16:08:11 SwedeMike, most people make noise about performance Mar 05 16:09:01 "I am running 14 browsers with 8 flash instances in each and it is juddering" Mar 05 16:09:07 gee Mar 05 16:09:12 how about actually closing some of that Mar 05 16:09:19 ie enough computing power to bring down a whole cluster Mar 05 16:09:19 * ruskie wants an auto-cluehammer device Mar 05 16:09:34 Well, no surprise when you're dealing with Java. Mar 05 16:09:40 lcuk: that's not entirely correct. To truely optimize you need better understanding of a platform hw than that applied in meego universal kernel Mar 05 16:10:13 DocScrutinizer51, each platform has its own kernel differentiation Mar 05 16:10:24 well, I there is probably a lot more to do for power efficiency both in os and hw, but the fact that the screen needs a lot of juice is probably hard to fix, so we're going to need better batteries to handle multi-hour usage regardless of what's done in other areas. Mar 05 16:10:25 the TSG standards were changed last year to specifically allow this Mar 05 16:10:44 oooh wow Mar 05 16:10:46 so there is an N900 adaption kernel and one for lardman|home's device etc Mar 05 16:10:52 SwedeMike, the most problem is that user want bling bling graphical interface that drain battery with heavy cpu use Mar 05 16:10:56 ie, you dismiss things too easily Mar 05 16:10:57 s/m Mar 05 16:11:01 s/most/main Mar 05 16:12:19 khertan_: well, yes, but it seems one needs a lot of cpu power to just render web pages... and looking at how much power the screen draws when lit up and when the radio is used, I don't see huge improvements anytime close, even though there are of course a lot that has been done in at least other OSes Mar 05 16:12:51 SwedeMike: this shows the problem pretty much. Your basic assumptions are flawed. On standby a phone isn't always powering the screen, and that's the situation that needs most thoughts and optimizations and gets the lest love though Mar 05 16:13:32 DocScrutinizer51, psst again, it is being dealt with Mar 05 16:13:36 Isn't MeeGo a dictatorship now that valhalla's left? Mar 05 16:14:17 DocScrutinizer51: of course, if one doesn't use the phone then the screen is off, but if one wants IM always-on etc, the radio needs to be on and that uses a lot of power because as soon as the phone is out of idle-mode radiowise, a lot of juice is used. Mar 05 16:14:21 Valhalla has not left, he just changed root Mar 05 16:14:43 DocScrutinizer51: I was talking about actually using the phone a few hours per day as well as keeping good standby Mar 05 16:15:10 SwedeMike: A lot of IM programs now use push notification, so... far less need to be using the radio. Mar 05 16:15:15 DocScrutinizer51, I pinged you on #meego relating to your point about kernel optimisations Mar 05 16:15:38 SwedeMike: still I get 2 days online with IRC, as long as I don't "use" the phone. And that's not going to happen on meego Mar 05 16:15:53 zerojay: well, most of them still need to wake up once every few minutes to keepalive the TCP connections, which brings the radio out of idle and it takes 30 seconds to go back. Mar 05 16:15:53 Ugh, Canadian tourists are eating my soul. Mar 05 16:16:16 GAN900, what colour book are they after ? Mar 05 16:16:22 DocScrutinizer51: well, I don't even get 16 hours out of my N900 if I'm connected to a 3G networks with 3 IM programs running.... I probably don't even get 8 hours. Mar 05 16:16:42 lcuk, their accents are too thick, I can't tell! *g* Mar 05 16:16:43 DocScrutinizer51: with maemo that is... Mar 05 16:16:51 haha Mar 05 16:16:52 SwedeMike: That's not how it works. Mar 05 16:17:16 sure, 3G is a hog, 2G is much better Mar 05 16:17:29 zerojay: really? so how does it handle CGNs/NATs that wipe sessions from it's NAT table after some inactivity? Mar 05 16:18:08 SwedeMike, as stated, if you are using data only for IM< perhaps try the 2g lock thing Mar 05 16:18:33 my operator doesn't do NAT :) Mar 05 16:18:38 lcuk: that's a workaround, not a solution. Mar 05 16:19:00 SwedeMike, well you can try it at least Mar 05 16:19:04 SwedeMike: Read up about push. Mar 05 16:19:05 there's no solution inside 3G specs Mar 05 16:19:05 ShadowJK_: mine doesn't either, but we're going to have to do it in the near future (I work for a 2G/3G/4G/ADSL/fixed line operator) Mar 05 16:19:32 my NATted connection has about 4 day timeout :) Mar 05 16:19:53 zerojay: you're talking about operator run push now? Mar 05 16:20:42 Screen at low brightness is about 60-100mA I guess, and hsdpa seems to run at around 600mA Mar 05 16:21:50 ShadowJK_: all the more important that all applications sync up their chatter so they all bring the phone out of idle at the same time so HS resource can be left down most of the time. Mar 05 16:21:52 see wiki Mar 05 16:22:20 yeah, see libiphb Mar 05 16:22:32 not that many things use it :( Mar 05 16:22:48 would also be nice if the phone could signal to the network that it wants to go to idle, right now as far as I have been told, it's the network that has a defined timeout for traffic before telling the phone to go to idle. Mar 05 16:22:49 SpeedEvil and some of me there are decent figures on virtually everything regarding power consumption Mar 05 16:23:47 SwedeMike, yep, network decides it all Mar 05 16:24:03 ShadowJK_, wouldn't this clustering be better at the low level interface end Mar 05 16:24:09 so that it was not down to apps themselves Mar 05 16:24:28 The operator here with friendliest policy for always-on on 3g is also the slowest. There's probably a tradeoff thing going on Mar 05 16:25:05 so ideal would be for the phone to signal that it wants to go out of idle, get HS, do the chatter needed in a few seconds to update whatever presence etc, and then go back to idle. Would save both network resources and phone battery. Mar 05 16:25:09 lcuk, well generally you want webpage to start downloading immediately and not 2 minutes from now :P Mar 05 16:26:01 Android lets you set Mar 05 16:26:06 er. Mar 05 16:26:08 I suspect that with hsdpa if a phone wants to go into idle or leave idle it involves a dozen other phones too Mar 05 16:26:20 Hit Return there when I meant to erase... damn angles. Mar 05 16:26:32 ShadowJK_, difference between interactive activation (ie when screen on and user infront of it) and when the device is idle Mar 05 16:27:26 I made the machine with my irc proxy block traffic to my phone for 2 minutes at a time, and unblock until tcp retransmissions have sent it all :) Mar 05 16:27:28 ShadowJK_: well, if the applications can say "we're all done now for a while, thanks" then at least the phone should be able to hint the network that it doesn't forsee any more traffic in the near future and can go to idle. I guess 3GPP didn't want this for some reason. Mar 05 16:28:43 Well, after traffic has stopped moving, it seems to return to idle at the next opportunity? Mar 05 16:29:18 Android has a state called "auto-sync" that apps that want to pull down data from time to time use. Some apps allow you to turn off the radio or turn it down to 2G until X minutes, then jump to 3G/whatever, turn on auto-sync for x minutes then turn radio back off again. Mar 05 16:29:46 ShadowJK_: in our network, that means 30 seconds until it goes to idle. It releases the HS resource fairly quickly though, think it's after just a few seconds. Mar 05 16:30:07 ShadowJK_: lcuk: we discussed that issue on OM community, my suggestion been to use different network devices with their own specific properties (like timeout despite inbound traffic, buffer/dont, et all) can be implemented mostly on netfilter level Mar 05 16:30:12 5 seconds for hsdpa->wcdma with my operator Mar 05 16:31:29 zerojay: are you sure about the jumping between 2G and 3G? That sounds like a lot of location updates that'd use quite a lot of battery in itself, also hinder incoming calls for a few seconds every time it happens. Mar 05 16:31:45 Yes, I'm sure. Mar 05 16:31:59 Ah - database sanitisation. Mar 05 16:32:04 http://www.tesco.com/groceries/Product/Details/?id=270129164 Mar 05 16:32:05 forcing dual to 2g takes about a second for me on n900? Mar 05 16:32:16 You can decide if you want to simply drop to 2g or drop completely. Mar 05 16:32:29 (only for those with a tesco login) Mar 05 16:32:43 http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=807989 Mar 05 16:34:29 zerojay: that URL is for a beta application and doesn't seem to be included as standard in android? Mar 05 16:34:39 Correct. Mar 05 16:34:56 Alot of third party apps don't use the maemo APIs for connectivity at all, so Maemo has no idea of when those apps use or dont use internet :/ Mar 05 16:35:03 I never claimed the automatic switching was default in Android. Mar 05 16:35:07 sadly yeah Mar 05 16:35:18 you could even implement a status menu slider for connection-speed vs power saving, similar to brightness slider Mar 05 16:35:21 though why should the app actually do it... Mar 05 16:35:26 just add a kernel listener for it Mar 05 16:35:40 eh? Mar 05 16:35:41 netfilter! Mar 05 16:36:03 there's even a kernel patch that can rereoute all connections through a socks proxy Mar 05 16:37:15 There's an app called Droidwall that lets you change the ipfilter options on an app-by-app basis. Mar 05 16:37:17 Very simple. Mar 05 16:37:36 App name, on/off 3g, on/off Wifi Mar 05 16:37:45 No reason something like that couldn't work on Maemo. Mar 05 16:38:19 indeed :P Mar 05 16:38:22 you need a per-app configuration of dynamic rules aka policies for handling traffic. Those policies also are aware of all the other connection properties like port numbers etc, same as (or even in) netfilter Mar 05 16:38:46 you can match by pid atleast, maybe process name too Mar 05 16:39:09 heh zerojay bet me on that Mar 05 16:39:18 Bet you on what? Mar 05 16:39:28 beat* Mar 05 16:40:10 just I think the policies should be much more versatile Mar 05 16:40:55 I think the way it works on Android is it blocks based on the Intent being used at the time. Mar 05 16:41:30 Haven't looked into it. Mar 05 16:43:12 you could block everything that hasn't specifically asked for access through maemo connectivity APIs and don't coordinate through iphb (or the higher level things that use libiphb), but it'd be tremendously unpopular move ;p Mar 05 16:43:19 there need to be per-app threholds and timeouts for 2G<->3G switching, sync to other app groups (aka network /dev-ices) for bundling transmissions Mar 05 16:43:23 etc pp Mar 05 16:44:19 I just use 2g all the time, except when I want to download stuff in gpodder ;p Mar 05 16:44:45 234kbit/s is faster than any modern browser renders on less than 4Ghz anyway ;D Mar 05 16:45:03 so your policy set should handle that for you Mar 05 16:45:19 ShadowJK_: you actually get 234kbit/s regularily on 2G? I only get that in our lab :P Mar 05 16:45:43 even though EDGE is a huge step up from non-edge :P Mar 05 16:45:54 well 24500 bytes/sec :P Mar 05 16:46:02 Yes, regulary Mar 05 16:46:13 ShadowJK_: quite simple gpodder should use another network device than the rest Mar 05 16:47:54 the gpoder network device shall enable 3G while the other device will try to keep things on 2G Mar 05 16:48:11 Or I could monitor traffic on gprs0 and send the signal on dbus to switch to Dual mode if it sits peaked at 24500 for a while ;p Mar 05 16:48:27 that's what network devices are meant for Mar 05 16:49:24 ShadowJK_: that's one of the extended policies to implement in netfilters Mar 05 16:49:41 on my old Nokia E75 I could hold 3 gprs connections simultaneously, all with its own public IP :D Mar 05 16:50:14 bbl Mar 05 17:08:01 MohammadAG: ping Mar 05 17:24:05 GNOME To Lose Minimize, Maximize Buttons Mar 05 17:24:22 * RST38h politely asks the Tentacled One to lunch on some people Mar 05 17:26:23 RST38h, it *might* be ok, but for as long as this bug exists it will frustrate people Mar 05 17:26:25 http://liqbase.net/metacity_bug_436537/ubuntu_gnome_metacity_closebutton_fail.htm Mar 05 17:26:33 (if they need to double click title bar to make it work) Mar 05 17:27:57 I haven't used a maximize button in about 5 years. Mar 05 17:28:10 Minimize maybe a bit less than that. Mar 05 17:28:13 I use minimize buttons though Mar 05 17:28:20 Maximize is a Windows button Mar 05 17:28:29 Doesn't Microsoft have a shortcut for that? Mar 05 17:28:51 he's talking about GNOME Mar 05 17:29:24 Sc0rpius, yes, I understand, but RST38h uses Windows. Mar 05 17:30:04 GAN900, ? he upgraded? last I heard RST38h was still on DOS 5.0 Mar 05 17:31:33 did you see that video upgrading from DOS5.0 to every Windows released but Me? Mar 05 17:31:52 Sc0rpius, yeah Mar 05 17:31:54 it was cool Mar 05 17:31:59 yeah pretty cool :) Mar 05 17:32:26 for those who didn't watch it: http://www.engadget.com/2011/03/03/charting-the-upgrade-path-from-dos-5-0-to-windows-7-video/ Mar 05 17:49:21 * RST38h moos evilly at javispedro Mar 05 17:49:26 moo RST38h Mar 05 17:50:26 anyone know of a 7" ARM tablet with a resistve screen that has a bit more resources than a smartq? Mar 05 17:55:05 meego on archos it now that's a possibility Mar 05 17:55:44 not 7" but better than n900 for work Mar 05 17:56:09 build your own Mar 05 17:58:04 Hmmm, Android has got viruses Mar 05 17:58:20 What happened to the supposedly "safe" Java environment? Mar 05 18:03:55 RST38h: lol Mar 05 18:04:19 ds3: thanks for the advice? Mar 05 18:04:24 lol Mar 05 18:04:25 RST38h: do you think I CBA to repeat my rant in #meego for the 794th time? No way dude, it's been lcuk who thought he can lure me in by pointing me to a bug where they work on power management for >6 months now. I'm still not interested in meego though, as for me a RE'd and FOSS'ed maemo is the better OS than meego every day. And my rant about N950 was just to show the aimless effort in meego, regarding what *I* expect from a handheld OS & Mar 05 18:04:26 hw Mar 05 18:05:39 Doc: Man, you have worked on OpenMoko, nobody can doubt your FOSS priorities after that :) Mar 05 18:07:47 tbh I prefer a maemo with closed bits over a meego with missing bits and rotten foundation and targeted to mimic iPhone rather than trying to become a viable NIT Mar 05 18:08:55 It's alway good when the former police chief goes to the funeral of the guy who killed two cops, but not the cops'. Mar 05 18:09:34 I'd rather port maemo4/diablo to N900 than try to live with meego handset UX, to state an exaggerated one Mar 05 18:11:35 some nerds invented a UX and claim that's what everybody has to like on his next NIT. I beg to differ Mar 05 18:12:16 lol Mar 05 18:12:32 I guess we'll see what it actually looks like when it's actually usable. Mar 05 18:12:52 on my metrics that's never then Mar 05 18:13:23 we'll see Mar 05 18:13:27 * GAN900 ever the optimist Mar 05 18:13:38 DocScrutinizer: "targeted to mimic iPhone" Mar 05 18:13:46 DocScrutinizer: don't confuse the UX with the OS Mar 05 18:14:22 Guy just called asking for a book: "Smallest Programming Language in the World" Mar 05 18:14:26 I simply don't get the rationale in adopting a new buggy OS with a mickey mouse UX targeted to what hw exactly? A N950 that comes with a crappy c-ts? NAH! Mar 05 18:14:32 I wanted to ask: "What is Brainfuck?" Mar 05 18:14:38 RST38h: Android. Sigh. Mar 05 18:14:52 DocScrutinizer: what's c-ts? Mar 05 18:14:58 DocScrutinizer, I was not trying to lure you in, but merely pointing out where you observed no attention had been paid that there infact was and is Mar 05 18:15:01 capacitive touchscren Mar 05 18:15:06 * lcuk will shush though Mar 05 18:15:09 javispedro, iknorite? Mar 05 18:15:11 Today our beloved *oid Android emulator guy violated the GPL again. everyone applauded. Mar 05 18:15:13 DocScrutinizer: ah. Mar 05 18:15:18 android open? my ass. Mar 05 18:15:40 DocScrutinizer, MeeGo UX that everyone saw at first was console only Mar 05 18:15:45 that is not mickey mouse :P Mar 05 18:16:05 Android is a pernicious disease. Mar 05 18:16:23 DocScrutinizer: well, that's what the consumers prefer. me or you maybe not, but we're not the target audience with whom they can make money Mar 05 18:16:25 all the details about taskswitcher to sketches of desktop are mickey mouse though Mar 05 18:16:41 DocScrutinizer: I agree with your thoughts on MeeGo handset UX Mar 05 18:16:53 DocScrutinizer: this is why people are porting hildon-desktop to MeeGo Mar 05 18:17:39 useless effort. For N950? For N900 even?? Mar 05 18:17:39 * lcuk wonders what the DocScrutinizer UX would look and feel like. Mar 05 18:18:00 DocScrutinizer: smoku runs it on his ideapad currently :) Mar 05 18:18:28 DocScrutinizer, you are very focused on MeeGo == one or two devices Mar 05 18:18:29 DocScrutinizer: I don't know anything about an "N950" either, but most likely I'm not going to be one of its buyers. Mar 05 18:18:37 lcuk: not really. You just say that to make me contribute to a stillborn project Mar 05 18:18:38 MeeGo is buildable on a wide range of things Mar 05 18:18:45 DocScrutinizer, not at all Mar 05 18:19:00 i hear you moaning in lots of places but less of what you would actually like! Mar 05 18:19:18 yes, you want a tablet/phone thingy, but what should it look like Mar 05 18:19:23 what should it act like Mar 05 18:19:24 etc Mar 05 18:19:51 like diablo, with a few hildon/fremantle aigments. It's just fine for me Mar 05 18:20:00 augments* Mar 05 18:20:31 have you tried building hildon diablo on fremantle device? Mar 05 18:20:41 ie Maemo 4 us ontop of Maemo5 Mar 05 18:20:45 the fremantle taskswitcher is actually bearable with MHD and tab-emu Mar 05 18:20:49 it is all OSS Mar 05 18:21:09 DocScrutinizer: what are MHD and tab-emu? Mar 05 18:21:21 the meego taskswitcher... oh my last I heard it's wose than windows Mar 05 18:21:29 worse* Mar 05 18:21:51 DocScrutinizer, again, the UX is not equal to the OS. Mar 05 18:21:54 http://wiki.maemo.org/User:Joerg_rw/tools Mar 05 18:22:57 Venemo: I'm well aware of that. The OS is rotten on some of the foundatin blocks though, as it's been architected by x86 centric laptop dudes, not embedded folks Mar 05 18:23:25 DocScrutinizer: so, if you are an embedded folk, why don't you step up and help them? Mar 05 18:23:26 I remember when CmdrTaco slated the ipod Mar 05 18:23:34 "No wireless. Less space than a nomad. Lame." Mar 05 18:23:36 Venemo: because that' Mar 05 18:23:38 s Mar 05 18:23:53 not appreciated and often received as insult Mar 05 18:23:57 DocScrutinizer, http://wiki.maemo.org/User:Joerg_rw/tools -> Ctrl+F -> no results for MHD nor tab-emu Mar 05 18:24:19 and honestly I don't see meego in my future live, no matter if I contribute or not Mar 05 18:24:40 DocScrutinizer: if someone can help MeeGo get it right, it's you Mar 05 18:25:08 Venemo: Mar 05 18:25:09 ## new: with ctrl-BS for nice taskswitching, see Mar 05 18:25:11 ## http://my.arava.co.il/~matan/repo/Modified_Hildon_Desktop.html Mar 05 18:25:12 ## and http://share.ovi.com/media/joerg900.screenshots/joerg900.10092 video Mar 05 18:25:19 oh, that! Mar 05 18:25:27 yeah, I find that nice too :) Mar 05 18:25:49 life* ^^^ Mar 05 18:26:11 sorry, I didn't know you meant this :) Mar 05 18:26:56 so DocScrutinizer, what would be your preferred mobile OS? Mar 05 18:27:30 * javispedro fires up disas, let's see which versions did this guy use Mar 05 18:27:44 mornin Mar 05 18:27:49 * lcuk boots Workbench 1.3 Mar 05 18:27:51 morning pupnik_ Mar 05 18:28:03 hey pupnik_ Mar 05 18:28:06 Venemo: no, meego product specs and UX guidelines have been writtten in stone when those Nokia and Intel dudes sat together in a bar and sketched the system on a papertowel after 7 beers. Now everybody is "free to add patches, after we finished initial version " Mar 05 18:28:39 DocScrutinizer: UX guidelines are for the official UXes. Mar 05 18:29:04 Venemo: meego is boring me, sorry. full stop. Mar 05 18:29:14 DocScrutinizer, everything starts out like that. Mar 05 18:29:14 DocScrutinizer: anyway, which is a free software-based mobile OS that you would prefer? Mar 05 18:29:36 I'd rather go with raster's *nix than meego Mar 05 18:29:51 mhm Mar 05 18:30:00 * javispedro reads DocScrutinizer comments and remembers his own comments when the N900 was about to come =) Mar 05 18:30:12 Hehe Mar 05 18:30:25 (yet the N900 came, and while I started partially porting the diablo UI, never really felt the complete need) Mar 05 18:30:40 GAN900 don't you laugh :P you once said something about never using a device with a phone on it :P Mar 05 18:30:52 *the need to complete it ;) Mar 05 18:30:55 Change is hard. Mar 05 18:31:24 Especially when change comes to a prosthetic limb. :P Mar 05 18:31:40 javispedro: you must be confusing me with somebody else. I joined "the maemo community" not earlier than 1 month after I ordered my N900, afair Mar 05 18:32:05 aw sorry, third person failure. Mar 05 18:32:09 that "his" was /me. Mar 05 18:32:39 aah sorry, me got it wrong Mar 05 18:32:53 we need more pronouns for irc =) Mar 05 18:33:03 OP Mar 05 18:33:12 self Mar 05 18:34:42 * lcuk squeezes the flaps on an engine to try and prise it open Mar 05 18:35:40 http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=961337#post961337 yet another Hildon UI over Meego project Mar 05 18:35:49 DocScrutinizer^^ ;) Mar 05 18:36:03 The correct usage is ",self" Mar 05 18:36:45 javispedro: this project will come to nothing Mar 05 18:37:23 (as usually) Mar 05 18:37:39 smoku's project actually has good chances of success Mar 05 18:38:56 I have one gripe with it Mar 05 18:39:07 he did not start from the maemo patched gtk+ Mar 05 18:39:21 javispedro: why the hell did they start doing this, when smoku already has the work 90% done? Mar 05 18:39:53 (90% of the work is not h-d only, please also consider the rest of Hildon) Mar 05 18:40:31 right using irssi on n900 isn't so easy be back Mar 05 18:41:28 unless all you want is the window manager ;) Mar 05 18:42:29 "Gnome removes maximize/minimize window controls" Mar 05 18:42:40 javispedro: hildon libs work on it afaik :) Mar 05 18:43:19 you too Mar 05 18:45:35 Venemo: didn't find the source then Mar 05 18:45:47 javispedro: of what? Mar 05 18:45:55 modified libhildon Mar 05 18:46:26 I'm not sure if a unchanged one works without the patched gtk+ Mar 05 18:46:49 RST38h: now wait until "Gnome removes all controls". Mar 05 18:47:24 javispedro: well, afaik it uses the Hildon lib in MeeGo's repo. also, Smoku's stuff is in MeeGo's OBS, and the OpenSuse packages are here: http://codex.xiaoka.com/pub/cordia/openSUSE/ ask smoku about it on #cordia if you want to know more Mar 05 18:47:31 javispedro: ...and extra mouse buttona Mar 05 18:47:32 s Mar 05 18:48:27 Venemo: ok, so then he's virtually done =) Mar 05 18:48:37 though still %configure --with-maemo-gtk=no :( Mar 05 18:49:17 there's a lot of problems when doing for example input method stuff (which you know I'd like to get) without the patched gtk+ :P Mar 05 18:50:01 Venemo: btw SHR on N900 is progressing nicely Mar 05 18:50:26 (_unless_ he plans to reuse hildon-input-method, which would be nice but probably against the spirit of meego...) Mar 05 18:50:36 javispedro, I can't wait for telepathic computers. Mar 05 18:50:46 (and even then you will need the patched gtk+ =) ) Mar 05 18:51:08 javispedro: smoku's project uses vanilla Gtk Mar 05 18:51:12 GAN900: I guess Gnome's plan is to remove all user interface elements in order to spur such computing revolution. Mar 05 18:51:13 DocScrutinizer: SHR=? Mar 05 18:51:44 SHR: http://shr-project.org Mar 05 18:52:23 Venemo: I know he uses vanilla gtk+, that's what I was ranting about ;P Mar 05 18:52:40 javispedro: why is that a problem? Mar 05 18:52:53 DocScrutinizer: http://shr-project.org/trac/wiki/Screenshots -> so this isn't mimicing iphone at all Mar 05 18:53:10 Venemo: maemo application compatibility, and some input method hooks. Mar 05 18:53:52 Venemo: for SHR the UX != system argument applies 100% Mar 05 18:53:59 DocScrutinizer: :):) Mar 05 18:54:08 javispedro, libhildon is there for maemo app compatibility Mar 05 18:54:14 where to download maemo system ? i want to install maemo on my mobile Mar 05 18:54:28 Venemo: apps expect stuff from Gtk+. Like the Hildon icon sizes, etc. Mar 05 18:54:46 not all apps. Mar 05 18:55:13 specially not plain gtk+ apps ;) Mar 05 18:55:38 javispedro: hildon iconsizes are there in libhildon, aren't they? Mar 05 18:55:51 Evanescence: you can't Mar 05 18:55:57 Venemo: for sure SHR - being a spinoff of OE - has quite some quirks as well, but it has a much nicer system architecture and esp it has a nicer community without decisions made behind walls like in meego Mar 05 18:57:24 DocScrutinizer: http://shr-project.org/trac/wiki/SHR_Architecture doesn't seem to be very detailed Mar 05 18:57:26 I'll still stay with maemo for the foreseeable future. Just mentioning it to prove there's other alternatives than just meego Mar 05 18:57:30 javispedro: I suspect you should simply discuss it with smoku, that should be enough Mar 05 18:57:40 Venemo: the maemo does not support download link ? Mar 05 18:58:05 Evanescence: Maemo is for the Nokia internet tablets and the Nokia N900 mobile computer Mar 05 18:58:43 RST38h: I do not want to force more work on him so far, though, which is what this is as he won't be able to reuse the meego gtk. Mar 05 18:59:07 Venemo: so that after i installed ubuntu on N900, i can not install maemo again ? Mar 05 19:00:39 Is it possible to use valgrind on N900? It was annouced ARM support some time ago, and now I see the package valgrind-3.6.0 in repository, but it doesn't contain any binaries. Mar 05 19:00:43 javispedro: As long as he knows that the issue needs fixing, he will get to it, eventually Mar 05 19:01:12 Venemo: yes, the icon sizes are actually defined in libhildon -- however the rest are not, like the tree view changes (just grep apt-get source libgtk2.0-dev for MAEMO_CHANGES and you will get a list) Mar 05 19:02:40 Evanescence: oh, you're looking for something else then Mar 05 19:02:43 ~flashing Mar 05 19:02:44 it has been said that flashing is http://wiki.maemo.org/Updating_the_tablet_firmware Mar 05 19:02:48 Evanescence: look at that link Mar 05 19:03:37 Venemo: yeah, thank you Mar 05 19:03:47 javispedro, hi. I've found solution for broken avcodec issue - I can symlink libstub to libavcodec in the game's directory, but I need to add '.' dir to LD_LIBRARY_PATH. I can do it via .desktop file, but maybe worth adding it to env.sh? Mar 05 19:04:26 security risk =) Mar 05 19:04:38 either way... Mar 05 19:04:48 are there any more games using that library? Mar 05 19:05:34 Don't know, I'm going to check the rest next few days, cause I've finished with installer. Mar 05 19:21:36 if there aren't, I might do the symlink thing. Mar 05 19:25:57 javispedro, I believe it's Avatar-specific issue, but such situation may occur with other games and other libraries. Just an assumption. Mar 05 19:26:43 or the _opposite_ might happen. Mar 05 19:27:18 What is opposite in this context? Mar 05 19:38:23 requires a real implementation of ffmpeg Mar 05 19:39:57 I compiled ffmpeg, and it worked Mar 05 19:40:06 Or am Iimagining stuff again. Mar 05 19:41:53 yeah - I compiled it - itwas simple Mar 05 19:42:07 ffplay is lots more complex thoguh Mar 05 19:44:25 yes -- the issue at hand is still the same as yesterday; some game seems not to like our extras build. Mar 05 19:47:41 Sorry -0 I wasn'treading context Mar 05 19:54:08 lots of stuff disabled in the extras build? Mar 05 19:54:26 it seems to play ogg files fine... Mar 05 19:54:58 I dunno. Mar 05 19:55:09 although I vaguely remember mru fixed some neon bugs a few months after extra-codecs or whatever it was that originally pulled in ffmpeg came Mar 05 19:55:12 I just installed gcc in a chroot, and built it. Mar 05 19:55:17 And it worked. Mar 05 19:55:28 At least for what I was wanting it for. Mar 05 19:55:36 it could be virtually anything, even, maybe they changed the library interface and didn't bump soname, or something Mar 05 19:55:38 * SpeedEvil is a bear of very little brain. Mar 05 19:56:13 They have a pretty struct api version policy, but users of it mostly ignore it :) Mar 05 19:58:36 Which version did you compile, SpeedEvil? Mar 05 19:58:53 * DocScrutinizer yawns Mar 05 19:59:12 * SpeedEvil wonders if he has a copy. Mar 05 19:59:36 It would have been whatever was stable 9 months or so ago. Mar 05 20:00:17 they have a stable svn/git policy :P Mar 05 20:00:23 2010-09-11.115451+0100BST.txt:(12:12:46 PM) SpeedEvil: nandan: There is a complex answer - and there is http://www.mauve.plus.com/test/ffmpeg Mar 05 20:00:24 oh Mar 05 20:00:50 the "release" is just snapshots taken by some debian dude whenever he feels like it Mar 05 20:01:03 Ah - no - nuked that Mar 05 20:04:33 RST38h, when do we get networking synching across multiple devices out of FBReader? :P Mar 05 20:07:06 * SpeedEvil drops rsync on GAN900. Mar 05 20:09:27 Yeah, I've thought about that a couple of times. Mar 05 20:18:07 DocScrutinizer: buggy stun in N900?, http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=961409#post961409 Mar 05 20:19:07 trumee: how did you know I was about to edit my NAT config this very moment? Mar 05 20:19:26 DocScrutinizer: telepathy :p Mar 05 20:20:57 trumee: looks strange. 192.168.1.1 is not stunserver.org Mar 05 20:20:59 DocScrutinizer: so any idea how it could be fixed without disabling rebind attack protection in the router Mar 05 20:21:24 haha Mar 05 20:21:38 trumee: sorry - I fail to understand the nature of the problem Mar 05 20:21:57 DocScrutinizer: www.stunserver.org is certainly not, but ping stunserver.org is resolving to 192.168.1.1 Mar 05 20:22:36 NFC, possibly ALG in router Mar 05 20:23:12 I can't decode that 3 lines to make a proper error description out of that Mar 05 20:23:23 well they defined in the DNS zone stunserver.org as 192.168.1.1 to force people to use a complete server name Mar 05 20:23:45 nslookup stunserver.org in any computer in the world will resolve as 192.168.1.1 Mar 05 20:24:05 I fail to see why that suprises people Mar 05 20:24:07 LOL Mar 05 20:24:09 surpirses Mar 05 20:24:12 surprises! Mar 05 20:24:26 Sc0rpius: my openwrt router is moaning about it Mar 05 20:24:38 orly?! ;-O Mar 05 20:24:41 you're not supposed to use stunserver.org that's a loopback name Mar 05 20:24:51 they force you to use a complete domain name Mar 05 20:24:58 I mean they do that on purpose Mar 05 20:25:08 so you HAVE to use whatever.stunserver.org Mar 05 20:25:32 Sc0rpius: does that mean N900 has hardcoded it incorrectly? Mar 05 20:26:06 I don't think it's hardcoded since you can use your own server Mar 05 20:26:09 well, I don't see who and why is using stunserver.org. Mar 05 20:26:29 he's talking about using stun in N900 Mar 05 20:26:52 there's a config option in advanced settings of SIP "use automatic STUN detection" Mar 05 20:27:22 * trumee suspects that automatic setting uses stunserver.org Mar 05 20:27:28 it doesn't Mar 05 20:27:34 then uncheck that Mar 05 20:27:38 and type a STUN server and port Mar 05 20:27:39 it makes a SRV request and most likely will fail to find anything Mar 05 20:27:43 if the whateveritscalled entry in DNS has no proper STUN service for the SIP provider domain, then automatic might fall back to stunserver.org :-P Mar 05 20:27:44 Robot101: good to see you Mar 05 20:28:09 Robot101: so why is openwrt moaning about it? Mar 05 20:28:11 I suggest to manually config proper settings for stun server in N900 and disable automatic detection Mar 05 20:28:18 I suggest that too Mar 05 20:28:22 yeah, you can use stun.telepathy.im Mar 05 20:28:23 and there are zillion of public STUN servers Mar 05 20:28:34 aaaah SRV - yes thatsitcalled Mar 05 20:28:57 right, going to use that Mar 05 20:28:59 SIP servers are meant to use SRV to define their STUN server but really, happens very rarely Mar 05 20:29:36 trumee: 192.168.1.1 is local, it's no valid IP Mar 05 20:30:02 DocScrutinizer: 192.168.1.1 doesnt exist on my network actually Mar 05 20:30:07 oh come on Mar 05 20:30:10 * Sc0rpius shoots himself Mar 05 20:30:27 * trumee is going to get rid of the automatic stun setting Mar 05 20:30:30 you even pasted this: Mar 05 20:30:40 64 bytes from 192.168.1.1: icmp_seq=1 ttl=255 time=0.556 ms Mar 05 20:30:51 it's obvious 192.168.1.1 is the LAN IP of your "OpenWRT" router Mar 05 20:31:04 your default gateway Mar 05 20:31:12 Sc0rpius: oops!, i was using somebodys else network to try that out :p Mar 05 20:31:31 then that IP is the default gateway or the router IP of somebody elses Mar 05 20:31:38 Sc0rpius: yesssss Mar 05 20:31:41 anyway don't pay attention to that Mar 05 20:31:46 just set a STUN server manually Mar 05 20:31:48 Robot101: could you help me out about how to query SRV record in DNS? Mar 05 20:31:56 ...on cmdline Mar 05 20:31:59 set query=srv Mar 05 20:32:18 in host? dig? Mar 05 20:32:33 nslookup Mar 05 20:32:37 uh Mar 05 20:32:37 nslookup Mar 05 20:32:42 set query=srv Mar 05 20:32:50 stunserver.org Mar 05 20:33:16 I'm old, I never got used to dig/host Mar 05 20:33:38 meh, nslookup, what a PITA Mar 05 20:33:44 hehe Mar 05 20:33:48 never used that - LOL Mar 05 20:33:58 how did you resolve before host then? Mar 05 20:34:00 host is fairly new Mar 05 20:34:20 I mean how did you resolve then back in 1985? Mar 05 20:34:29 not at all? Mar 05 20:34:53 :S Mar 05 20:34:53 there's been few intenets in 1985 that I could use Mar 05 20:35:14 iirc it's been datex-p back then Mar 05 20:35:34 and 2400bd accoustic couplers Mar 05 20:35:43 1200? Mar 05 20:36:23 those were the times Mar 05 20:36:42 FTP was so slow and connection timeouts were so frequent that there was an FTP via email service Mar 05 20:36:52 you send an email with all ftp commands to a "powerful" server Mar 05 20:36:59 hehehe Mar 05 20:37:10 then hours later you received an email with all the output Mar 05 20:37:16 if you downloaded a file, it was uuencoded Mar 05 20:37:18 it was nice Mar 05 20:38:08 and a lot of "big irons" had a unix with a guest/guest user that had full access to the machine :-P Mar 05 20:39:03 and even accepted datex-p R connections Mar 05 20:40:02 * DocScrutinizer idly wonders if there's been DNS at that time :-P Mar 05 20:41:09 if you don't like nslookup, you could always use host -t srv ... Mar 05 20:41:57 that was nothing Mar 05 20:42:06 you could telnet computers, BBS systems for example Mar 05 20:42:12 and be quick and press Ctrl-C when the banner was shown Mar 05 20:42:17 and had root Mar 05 20:53:21 villager: I'm just trying both, but seem to recall e.g. sipgate.de actually supports stun SRV, but under a special URL like _stun.sipgate.de Mar 05 20:53:51 I can't recall how to build that special name from the SIP server basename Mar 05 20:59:50 was hoping o find sth in RFC3489 but no luck Mar 05 21:04:38 MEH Mar 05 21:04:42 host -v -t SRV _stun._udp.sipgate.de Mar 05 21:04:44 ;; ANSWER SECTION: Mar 05 21:04:45 _stun._udp.sipgate.de. 13995 IN SRV 0 0 3478 stun.sipgate.net. Mar 05 21:07:56 Venemo, hey Mar 05 21:19:30 DocScrutinizer: are you using their free service ? Mar 05 21:19:33 (sipgate) Mar 05 21:20:02 well, free as in no monthly fee, no charges for inbound call, yes Mar 05 21:20:25 works mostly fine Mar 05 21:21:55 but I read sth about above quoted SRV record has a wrong 3478 port in it, while the suggested port on their website is 10.000 Mar 05 21:22:38 not that I really know to read SRV records of DNS Mar 05 21:25:11 can i ask, what did you use to synchronize maemo locally, without clouds network? Mar 05 21:29:28 pupnik: anyway using that sipgate geographic phone number since ~5 years now, mostly just works Mar 05 21:37:33 ty DocScrutinizer Mar 05 21:38:47 ovi mail switching to yahoo! mail .. "Sie erklären sich damit einverstanden, dass Yahoo! mittels eines technisch automatisierten Prozesses Inhalte wie Wörter, Links, Personen und Betreffzeilen Ihrer E-Mail-Nachrichten und anderer Nachrichten (einschließlich IM- und SMS-Nachrichten) prüft, um zu erfahren, was für Sie wichtig ist und Ihnen verbesserte Dienste und relevantere Werbung anzubieten." Mar 05 21:39:25 LOL*cough*errrr Mar 05 21:39:54 yahoo always been more *evil* than even google Mar 05 21:41:21 Nokia sold his soul to the hoofed one long before the Elopocalypse Mar 05 21:42:16 hello ZogG_laptop Mar 05 21:42:26 but you can see it's just an evolutionary / market maxima Mar 05 21:42:34 or 'attractor' Mar 05 21:42:57 .. making the most economic use out of the service of passing user data Mar 05 21:43:48 Venemo i was thinking Mar 05 21:43:55 i don't need to learn boost Mar 05 21:43:57 it Mar 05 21:44:35 sure, while implicitly selecting their user base for those who are numb enough to not care about spying their mails, so probably also most susceptible to commercal adds Mar 05 21:45:36 it's just usd in library Mar 05 21:45:40 not for my code Mar 05 21:45:49 so i might rewrite it into c++ Mar 05 21:46:46 lol Mar 05 21:46:52 anyway, they tested cherry on us, not they go for the full treat Mar 05 21:47:01 s/ not / now / Mar 05 21:47:02 DocScrutinizer meant: anyway, they tested cherry on us, now they go for the full treat Mar 05 21:47:21 "gesetzlichen Recht Gebrauch gemacht haben, dieser Nutzung Ihrer Daten zu widersprechen." Mar 05 21:47:26 sorry Mar 05 21:47:27 * DocScrutinizer is happy to never have used Nokia mail Mar 05 21:47:38 HAHA Mar 05 21:47:51 Außerdem werten wir ggf. Nutzungsprofile unter einem Pseudonym (das nicht mit den Daten in Ihrem Account zusammengeführt werden kann) zur Werbung, Marktforschung und Verbesserung der Yahoo! Dienste aus, soweit Sie nicht von Ihrem gesetzlichen Recht Gebrauch gemacht haben, dieser Nutzung Ihrer Daten zu widersprechen. Mar 05 21:48:14 ZogG_laptop: as long as it works, do as you wish :) Mar 05 21:49:26 * GAN900 feels left out. Mar 05 21:49:27 Venemo, i would like you to help me to do it in C anyway Mar 05 21:50:15 ZogG_laptop: okay :) Mar 05 21:50:48 die Mar 05 21:50:52 ZogG_laptop, my weekend appears to be quite busy though, so I can't do it right now Mar 05 21:51:05 just incidentally those succers sent me an "invitation" or some similar shit two ddays ago, somebody wants to follow me or whatever. Damn I had to create that account for twinkle forum on yahoo, and they got a true mail addr to forward that shit to Mar 05 21:51:22 suckers!* Mar 05 21:52:30 barbie santacruce wants to connect with you on Yahoo! ---- Von: "Yahoo!" Mar 05 21:53:08 Venemo, talk to me, as i don't find any way except glib and i don't fully understand the best way to do it Mar 05 21:59:23 lardman|home, ping Mar 05 21:59:32 lol DocScrutinizer Mar 05 22:17:13 What would you guys recommend for listening WMA internet radio? Mar 05 22:17:27 Good speakers. Mar 05 22:17:28 (mplayer can do that but has awful UI) Mar 05 22:17:53 SpeedEvil: The maemo media player does not support WMA nor (afaik) does MediaBox. Mar 05 22:18:06 Isn't there gmplayer? Mar 05 22:18:11 I haven't used it though. Mar 05 22:18:41 Dassu: are you sure the builtin media player does not support wma? Mar 05 22:18:53 * javispedro 's pretty sure it does, in fact I remember listening to an wma stream once... Mar 05 22:19:37 javispedro: it says "Unknown audio format" Mar 05 22:19:53 Package: gstreamer0.10-wma Maintainer: someone@nokia.com Mar 05 22:19:58 so yes, it should. Mar 05 22:20:05 hmm Mar 05 22:20:58 divan: there? Mar 05 22:21:38 Should that provide a ffwmav2 codec? Mar 05 22:21:38 neither here nor there Mar 05 22:21:59 Dassu: no, that would be gstreamer-ffmpeg Mar 05 22:22:46 ZogG_laptop: if I can get that media server thingy to install on my laptop, I may be able to help Mar 05 22:22:50 and Maemo media player should support that? Mar 05 22:22:58 ZogG_laptop: although not today; probably tomorrow evening Mar 05 22:23:19 Dassu: if you install it, yes... it probably will come with the "extra decoders support" package on extras Mar 05 22:23:46 I have it installed Mar 05 22:24:14 http://195.248.86.134/liveylex <- here's the stream btw Mar 05 22:25:45 I can't reach the server. Mar 05 22:26:04 I also can't reach the server. Mar 05 22:26:05 me neither Mar 05 22:26:07 nor does it return pings Mar 05 22:26:25 nor does nslookup identify a hostname for it Mar 05 22:26:32 javispedro: I guess it is only for fins. Damnit Mar 05 22:27:08 in other words: it works for me on Desktop Mar 05 22:27:45 * Dassu tries to find english wma station and to experiment Mar 05 22:28:04 you might want to try installing gstreamer0.10-ffmpeg ... however, as said, the wma codec should be there; maybe the n900 also hasn't access to the station. Mar 05 22:28:18 *should be there already on stock n900. Mar 05 22:29:34 dude, I have it installed. Mar 05 22:29:42 I just found something that is terribly, terribly funny and however I am not able to explain it because of legal issues :( Mar 05 22:29:48 sucks. Mar 05 22:30:06 and yes it is maemo related. Mar 05 22:30:10 You can PM it to me, and I can claim I found it out. :) Mar 05 22:30:13 javispedro: my n900 has access to that server through mplayer Mar 05 22:30:59 Dassu: ah well, ran out of ideas, probably nokia's wma codec is being preffered over ffmpeg's one and nokia can't parse the stream or something. Mar 05 22:31:27 s/nokia/fluendo (seemingly) Mar 05 22:31:30 k Mar 05 22:34:11 * pupnik laffs at locking Mar 05 22:39:14 javispedro, ping Mar 05 22:39:19 javispedro: I think you misunderstood that - don't you want to explain to us where you looked at when you got that puzzled. We might find a better explanation ;-D Mar 05 22:40:09 I can confirm that the story is _really_ funny. But alas can't share it. Mar 05 22:40:18 (he diddn't really PM me) Mar 05 22:40:30 divan: see pm Mar 05 22:41:57 JavisPedro just looked at my twitterprofile page :O Mar 05 22:42:24 javispedro: we already knew WP7 is a maemo with a special theme - that's not any funny anymore Mar 05 22:43:20 cold cold Mar 05 22:44:44 all the closed maemo blobs are stolen from minix and actually must get GPL'd, also nothing new Mar 05 22:45:27 that's why the killed maemo and started on meego - after all Mar 05 22:46:39 getting warmer (it's indeed something about blob), but still pretty much cold =) Mar 05 22:46:45 * a blob Mar 05 22:47:30 the next one posting a sentence with "flash" gets kicked Mar 05 22:48:28 hm, sounds like a dare... *grabbing some popcorn and enjoying the show* Mar 05 22:48:52 what is qt version we have on maemo? Mar 05 22:48:57 move one, move on. Nothing to see here Mar 05 22:49:08 does qt-4.7.2 iso ut already? Mar 05 22:49:26 * ZogG is never gonna get used to bed based distors Mar 05 22:49:43 o.O Mar 05 22:49:47 "bed based distros"? Mar 05 22:50:04 sounds like something I would want to use. Mar 05 22:50:15 bed based di stores Mar 05 22:50:17 deb based distros =) Mar 05 22:50:42 is there anything except apt-cache search? Mar 05 22:50:59 yeah, rm -rf Mar 05 22:51:13 you can install apps without using apt Mar 05 22:51:29 there's also http://www.maemo.org/packages/ Mar 05 22:51:41 in fact we could have a superfast program installer with dpkg Mar 05 22:51:45 and locate, and google of course ;-P Mar 05 22:52:30 just dpkg doesn't care at all about dependencies Mar 05 22:53:01 and I guess building the complete deps-tree is what takes time Mar 05 22:53:03 DocScrutinizer, i got this app requiring qt 4.7.2 Mar 05 22:53:06 right Mar 05 22:53:07 debs-* Mar 05 22:53:08 and tried to run it Mar 05 22:53:18 but it blinks and get black screen Mar 05 22:53:18 there's something wrong with the data structures being used Mar 05 22:53:36 so i think i might miss qt 4.7.2 and have 4.7.1 or something Mar 05 22:53:37 question: can the n900 be flashed in such a way to eliminate the user lock password? Mar 05 22:53:40 installed with ham Mar 05 22:53:41 insertions/deletions into such a tree should be o log(n) where n is the size of the tree, not (n) Mar 05 22:54:03 DantonicN800, emmc flash? Mar 05 22:54:12 so we have an embarassing situation from a data-structures and not-suck perspective, DocScrutinizer Mar 05 22:54:19 didn't work for me Mar 05 22:54:31 pupnik: basically the tree should get downloaded from server, then just prune it Mar 05 22:54:35 still Wants pw Mar 05 22:54:47 http://mediasrv.musicradio.com/2CR?MSWMExt=.asf <- can somebody test this url on their maemo media player? Mar 05 22:55:15 DantonicN800: basically no Mar 05 22:55:36 :( Mar 05 22:56:41 http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=524522#post524522 however Mar 05 22:56:42 I had the strangest thing happen, it.won't let me enter my code, it's as if the touchscreen doesn't work Mar 05 22:57:23 but when I touch it while it's dark it lights up Mar 05 22:57:43 but i can't digit anything Mar 05 22:57:55 touch or keyboard Mar 05 22:57:57 :-/ Mar 05 22:58:15 Dassu: I have that format not supported Mar 05 22:58:49 ok I'll check out that link thx Mar 05 22:59:28 glad my n800 is still operational tho :P Mar 05 22:59:44 DantonicN800: note that you can access the CAL partition that's storing the lockcode as well from e.g meego or any other auxiliary system (rescue initrd for example) Mar 05 23:01:17 * DocScrutinizer ponders a maemo aux system on uSD, which is patched to not query/check lockcode on bootup, but allows writing to CAL to reset the code Mar 05 23:02:50 it can't be too hard to patch that mount commands in initscripts to make a copied / on uSD boot and work Mar 05 23:04:00 I hope there's no closed blob checking for fs-type of rootfs Mar 05 23:04:18 or physical device Mar 05 23:05:14 hi. does anyone know if it's possible to put apps into the maemo extras repository when they are available in the ovi store at the same time? I would like to offer a repository for Quassel2Go (http://qt-apps.org/content/show.php/Quassel2Go?content=136828) which has quicker turnaround times than ovi Mar 05 23:06:31 that's a good question I guess. Any limitation would probably come from the Ovi side. Mar 05 23:06:46 I wouldn't see what's stopping any FOSS app from going into extras, once it got the 10 votes of QA Mar 05 23:06:56 (seeing it's a GPLd app, I'd usually say ditch Ovi and go extras only) Mar 05 23:07:07 unless you have good reason to be on Ovi ... Mar 05 23:07:29 well, enable customers to pay for it ;-D Mar 05 23:07:49 jpala16: k, thanks, so its not just me :P Mar 05 23:07:52 there's one thing I don't get Mar 05 23:08:01 Does Ovi provide source code downloads? Mar 05 23:08:03 there are users who thing a program you paid for is worth more than a FOSS one Mar 05 23:08:15 weird, it's usually the very opposite Mar 05 23:08:26 kerio: on this channel, sure. on the real world... Mar 05 23:08:26 not quite, but then again. Mar 05 23:08:41 this channel is in the real world Mar 05 23:09:02 that is probably one of the best points I've heard today. Mar 05 23:09:04 so i could save it by installing nitdroid? Mar 05 23:09:07 because, if Ovi store doesn't provide source code downloads... Isn't it incompatible with the GPL? Mar 05 23:09:13 good evening Mar 05 23:09:32 has anyone experienced weird transitions after installing the 'CSSU transitions tuner' ? Mar 05 23:09:32 same way VLC has been pulled from the iTunes AppStore? Mar 05 23:09:45 biston: I'm guessing that's the point of the app? Mar 05 23:10:03 nah that's not what i mean, let me tell you what i'm going through Mar 05 23:10:10 crashanddie_: the problem was that you couldn't run your own compiled VLC from source Mar 05 23:10:11 crashanddie_: actually, the official reason for VLC was that the App Store licenses restricts you from sharing the application again. Mar 05 23:10:11 in my case i can see the next desktop overlapping when i slide Mar 05 23:10:14 crashanddie_: obviously Mar 05 23:10:38 er, yeah, you couldn't share your compiled VLC Mar 05 23:10:39 (illegit ovi) Mar 05 23:11:17 And I'm pretty sure the Ovi licence prevents you from sharing your downloads with others Mar 05 23:11:20 in more details, i have conversations inbox widget on desktop 1, omweather widget on desktop 2. if i'm on desktop 1 and i slide to desktop 2 i can see the omweather widget before desktop-transition is done Mar 05 23:11:38 and vice versa when switching from desktop 2 to desktop 1 Mar 05 23:11:39 which all goes to my first point, which is: if its GPL, ditch Ovi. Mar 05 23:11:51 biston: post on the tmo thread, you're more likely to get a decent response Mar 05 23:12:05 sure Mar 05 23:12:11 biston: #maemo is to the Maemo Community what 4chan is to the Internet. Mar 05 23:12:35 crashanddie_: you'd need to check exact wording of OVI ToS Mar 05 23:12:43 well i thought since cssu devs all login to here ... Mar 05 23:12:45 DocScrutinizer: I cba Mar 05 23:12:49 lol Mar 05 23:12:56 biston: you want #maemo-ssu then ;) Mar 05 23:13:14 ah. thank you for that Mar 05 23:13:49 see? this channel is not the real world. it is 4chan! Mar 05 23:14:00 actually, let me rephrase that Mar 05 23:14:12 #maemo is to the Maemo Community what /b/ is to 4chan. Mar 05 23:14:22 woot finally. FOudn the solution for wma radio not playing. For some reason playlists report urls as http:// when as they are in fact mms:// when I changet http:// to mms:// the radio magically started playing! Mar 05 23:14:39 * javispedro feels slightly insulted, but quickly forgets and continues posting cat images Mar 05 23:14:47 lol Mar 05 23:15:33 Dassu: nice find Mar 05 23:15:57 thanks for your answers Mar 05 23:16:15 :) thanks Mar 05 23:16:39 Jaffa: I tried editing MWKN, but my brain is not managing to write coherent sentences... Either the topics this month are really difficult, or I'm out of writing for the day. Mar 05 23:16:47 I think it's ok to put it into ovi. from ovi side there are only limitation with symbian signed apps (when signed for free from ovi.com) Mar 05 23:16:56 Jaffa: will try again tomorrow morning or something. Mar 05 23:17:23 besides, quassel2go takes part in a contest sponsored by nokia and which requires 1) ope source and 2) ovi.com submission :) Mar 05 23:17:40 that doesn't mean it's legal Mar 05 23:17:54 it would be nokia-style embarrasing if it weren't. Mar 05 23:18:04 crashanddie_: yeah Mar 05 23:18:07 javispedro: hehe :) Mar 05 23:18:13 please violate the GPL to win this contest! Mar 05 23:18:46 maybe it's all a plot to force you to use BSD style licenses =) Mar 05 23:19:15 javispedro: why violate the GPL? Mar 05 23:19:21 In other news, I may just have managed to convert my company to GPL Mar 05 23:19:39 Dassu: how do you insert that URL to the playlist? Mar 05 23:19:40 :) Mar 05 23:19:44 Apparently, version 3 of our ACD server might be licenced as GPL :) Mar 05 23:20:11 sgiessl: by forcing you to a) make your app GPL b) publish it without the source on ovi =) Mar 05 23:20:18 either way Mar 05 23:21:02 if you're the sole copyright owner of the app, you can just say "gpl with exceptions" and ship whatever you want wherever you want while not allowing anyone else. Mar 05 23:22:04 javispedro: what requirement do you mean by "forcing me to publish it without source on ovi"? Mar 05 23:22:17 "ovi.com submission" Mar 05 23:22:39 I don't think it's a requirement of the GPL to ship every binary with source code attached Mar 05 23:22:55 it kinda is Mar 05 23:22:57 that, or written offer. Mar 05 23:22:57 ovi.com submission doesn't mean it's forbidden to publish source code Mar 05 23:23:21 javispedro: the app comes with an about dialog including the license Mar 05 23:23:29 #maemo-ssu Mar 05 23:23:42 sorry, noob fault Mar 05 23:23:49 np Mar 05 23:24:06 * javispedro is not a lawyer, but guesses that's ok. Mar 05 23:24:41 after all, as per the iphone-vlc predecent, nobody complained about how they distributed the source. Mar 05 23:25:00 the appstore VLC case was about ToS of appstore forbid sharing of the downloaded apps Mar 05 23:26:11 neither did we, sgiessl brought that up Mar 05 23:26:29 there's been a link to the rationale why FSF(?) made apple take down VLC Mar 05 23:26:44 here in this chan, a few days ago Mar 05 23:26:49 not FSF Mar 05 23:26:55 a french dude Mar 05 23:26:59 the lead in VLC Mar 05 23:27:09 because he's an IP holder of VLC, he could make the claim to Apple Mar 05 23:27:45 regardless, I have a jailbroken iPod touch, with VLC Mar 05 23:27:51 I would be interested in links which contain details Mar 05 23:28:25 IIRC the thing about VLC was specifically related to the Apple app store. because Apple forbids to publish apps in other places Mar 05 23:28:32 what's his name Mar 05 23:28:40 Remi Denis-Montcourt Mar 05 23:28:41 it's different with ovi in that you are perfectly allowed to do this Mar 05 23:28:42 or something Mar 05 23:28:49 are you? Mar 05 23:29:20 You're not allowed to redistribute say... Angry Birds Mar 05 23:29:56 .... angry birds is not gpl. Mar 05 23:30:02 * javispedro hides Mar 05 23:30:06 indeed Mar 05 23:30:14 but what about the Ovi EULA? Mar 05 23:30:16 hiding behind a huuuuge tree? Mar 05 23:31:05 so, let's read it. Mar 05 23:31:06 http://store.ovi.com/legal/terms/store Mar 05 23:31:57 DocScrutinizer: I just add the mms://*.asf to the address field. Mar 05 23:32:00 crashanddie_: please anyone give me _specific_ pointers about possible incompatibilities with the GPL. I will re-check the ovi terms when I've got some time Mar 05 23:32:14 DocScrutinizer: wait, didn't understand the question. Mar 05 23:32:45 Dassu: how do you enter the URL? do you click on it in browser, type it in, or what else? Mar 05 23:33:18 * sgiessl is going to sleep now. Mar 05 23:34:08 DocScrutinizer: Well, if you don't have finnish proxy you wont be able to test this but what I did was to download the .asx (playlist first) Mar 05 23:34:10 6.Content: You agree: [...] Not to, nor authorize anyone else, make copies, give, sell, resell, [...], piss on the content, [...] , commercially exploit or make the Content available _unless otherwise authorized in the applicable Terms_ Mar 05 23:35:00 DocScrutinizer: for some wierd ass reason that contained url to even another playlist: http://195.248.86.134/liveylex Mar 05 23:35:06 Dassu: sorry, still obscure. How did you do that? Mar 05 23:35:40 Dassu: well, never mind Mar 05 23:35:42 DocScrutinizer: I type it in just like any other radio stream Mar 05 23:35:53 DocScrutinizer: Only replaced the http:// with mms:// Mar 05 23:36:45 Nokia doesn't actually bother reading terms and conditions to see if they actually make sense. Mar 05 23:36:57 The PR1.3 upgrade is a prime example. Mar 05 23:37:08 javispedro: IANAL as well, but could it be that "the applicable Terms" are terms specific to the application, ie. the GPL in this case? Mar 05 23:37:14 sgiessl: I agree. Mar 05 23:37:32 sgiessl: yes Mar 05 23:37:52 SpeedEvil: like what? Mar 05 23:38:49 https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=10261 Mar 05 23:38:50 that Mar 05 23:38:51 Bug 10261: MyNokia Terms and conditions of use on PR1.2 upgrade are incorrect Mar 05 23:40:53 ah, My Nokia. Mar 05 23:41:25 did you know I can used media player to play videos? another useful hint from my nokia! Mar 05 23:42:09 Wow! Mar 05 23:42:17 Who would have guessed! Mar 05 23:42:45 fortunatelly, on this country, THEY pay for the SMS. Mar 05 23:46:37 I shoul dhave followed up withmy provider, and gotten a refund. Mar 06 00:14:52 * SpeedEvil sighs, and wants pictbridge-gadget Mar 06 00:19:42 hm Mar 06 00:19:50 what do you guys do when your router suddenly dies? Mar 06 00:20:23 look for the ISP data Mar 06 00:20:37 ? Mar 06 00:20:45 to configure a new router Mar 06 00:25:12 korhojoa: I kill a chicken. Mar 06 00:25:35 Or an OpenReach engineer. Mar 06 00:27:36 I see. Mar 06 00:27:43 I just swapped in a old dd-wrt system Mar 06 00:30:54 powercycle Mar 06 00:31:36 i don't have a bicycle right now. Mar 06 00:32:29 my fork is at service :( Mar 06 00:52:21 eh Mar 06 00:52:43 I didn't know Intel owned 16% of img tech Mar 06 00:52:55 (makers of the sgx chip) Mar 06 00:53:09 s/chip// Mar 06 00:53:10 javispedro meant: (makers of the sgx ) Mar 06 00:59:50 * pupnik doesn't know if it's time to forgive intel for the 8088 Mar 06 01:01:04 pupnik: while we're still dealing with the mess it left? Mar 06 01:05:57 it made programming unnecessarily hard for kids and newbs in the 80s Mar 06 01:06:29 no fun to program close to the metal when the metal is so disgusting Mar 06 01:18:48 pupnik, !! Mar 06 01:23:11 hi all Mar 06 01:23:39 I own a WH-701 remote headset, what do I need to make it working with my N900? Mar 06 01:29:49 hi nox- :) how doodleydo Mar 06 01:30:02 moin pupnik Mar 06 01:32:59 bash`!! :-D Well, sorry but for now it seems WH-701 is unsupported by N900 (if wh701 is that wired multibutton headset) Mar 06 01:33:45 at least when it comes to the butti Mar 06 01:33:50 buttons Mar 06 01:34:00 DocScrutinizer: yes is that :( what can I do? Mar 06 01:34:30 (I need to remap CR for my blindtyping execises :-P) Mar 06 01:34:37 talking of hands-frees, anyone got a link to a information about which pin is which? Mar 06 01:34:43 (i mean, on the 3.5m jack) Mar 06 01:35:00 BCMM: simple Mar 06 01:35:17 you need the detaled version, or the one-line? Mar 06 01:35:35 bash`: there's little you can do Mar 06 01:35:41 what's the detailed version? Mar 06 01:35:48 mompl Mar 06 01:35:59 DocScrutinizer: I'm trying to play with dbus...(with no luck) Mar 06 01:36:19 i'm planning, vaguely, to turn a broken handsfree for a 3410 and a broken pair of earphones that i liked into a working handsfree for the n899 Mar 06 01:36:22 n900 rather Mar 06 01:36:50 DocScrutinizer: i just need to know which is which, but i'm puzzled as to what else the detailed version could contain Mar 06 01:37:05 http://members.omtp.org/Lists/ReqPublications/Attachments/36/OMTP_Local_Connectivity_Wired_Analogue_Audio_v1_0.pdf Mar 06 01:37:14 unless it includes suitable impedances and how the answer button works Mar 06 01:37:22 I love it when my neighbors forget to turn off their outdoor speakers when they're watching movies. Mar 06 01:37:46 give em a call Mar 06 01:37:55 BCMM: that's exactly what it has Mar 06 01:38:43 i've a feeling i've asked this before, but it is electrically compatible with the 2.5mm hands-free interface from the 3410 and similar old nokias, right? Mar 06 01:39:23 I'm not sure about the pinout, but electrically as in impedance etc yes it is compatible Mar 06 01:39:57 mechanically though you are aware it's a 3.5mm plug Mar 06 01:40:00 DocScrutinizer: do you know how can I see what happen if I press a button on the headset or something like that? Mar 06 01:40:32 bash`: with a Y-cable to attach a decent oscilloscope to the 4 wires from/to headset Mar 06 01:40:40 * pupnik gets frustraded by 'unlocking' Mar 06 01:41:03 :P Mar 06 01:41:04 DocScrutinizer: yeah, i've got a four-pin 3.5mm plug to play with too Mar 06 01:41:15 DocScrutinizer: btw, is unsupported by the hardware or the software? Mar 06 01:41:30 pupnik: they just ignore our number. Mar 06 01:41:35 Bad relations with the neighbors. Mar 06 01:41:44 bash`: we got no F'ng clue what's going on exactly. Suspicions are it's a serial protocol via mic wire, but it could as well be hidden BT Mar 06 01:41:59 Yuppies who moved into a house from 1912 and stripped out everything original to replace it with synthetic materials. Mar 06 01:42:05 parabolic dish + microwave oven? Mar 06 01:42:17 bash`: for all I know the N95 has same hw regarding AV-jack Mar 06 01:42:38 bash`: so it's basically sw, though really basic sw like kernel drivers etc Mar 06 01:43:25 ahh, the button on a simple headset just shorts the mic wire to ground through a resistor; i feel kind silly for wondering about compatibility with older gear now Mar 06 01:43:30 ok, thanks for the explanation Mar 06 01:43:41 BCMM: forget the resistor Mar 06 01:43:48 DocScrutinizer: ? Mar 06 01:43:54 R=0 Mar 06 01:44:05 just fine Mar 06 01:44:31 i did notice it said "a resistor of less than 100 omhs" or something Mar 06 01:44:42 yes. 0 < 100 Mar 06 01:45:34 looks like a fundamentally true statement Mar 06 01:45:39 i know Mar 06 01:45:49 i'm just wondering why they bothered Mar 06 01:46:03 since the cheapest sub-100 omh resistor will always be no resistor Mar 06 01:46:10 for making clear to EE what's the limitations Mar 06 01:46:20 oh, i suppose it permits the use of an LED so you know you actually pressed the button Mar 06 01:46:51 forex, you could calculate if that'll pan out (I can tell you it won't) Mar 06 01:47:14 so is there an easy way (sysfs or something) to detect presses of the answer button in software? Mar 06 01:47:44 I think yes. But you first need to enable micbias, otherwise no voltage on mic to short Mar 06 01:48:21 switching on micbias can be done in ALSA mixer Mar 06 01:48:50 so it's typically only watching it during a call or ringing, i guess? Mar 06 01:48:51 then there should be some /sys/*/*/*/state to poll - or better to wait for kevent Mar 06 01:49:26 probably you also will see a log line in syslog Mar 06 01:49:35 (though I never checked that) Mar 06 01:50:23 thanks Mar 06 01:50:23 but regarding the fact you get logs for kbd slide and for tklockswitch... Mar 06 01:50:27 yw Mar 06 01:50:52 i always thought that dmesg for every lock was a bit excessive Mar 06 01:51:15 meh, there's other things that annoy way more Mar 06 01:51:41 like gabby WLAN Mar 06 01:51:43 syslog would be OK, imho, but clogging up the ring buffer with that seems excessive Mar 06 01:52:35 well, I do a `>/var/log/syslog` every once in a while - to keep it from eating my rootfs Mar 06 01:52:47 are most of the flakey usb connectors on n900 due to solder pulled off? or a rip in the board trace? Mar 06 01:52:48 anyway, i'd better find out whether my soldering is up to this before getting any more interested in this Mar 06 01:53:00 with pulled-off solder maybe a heating of the contact iwth an iron would fix Mar 06 01:53:02 working with headphone wire is a pain Mar 06 01:53:22 valhalla joining Intel. Mar 06 01:53:24 Awesome. Mar 06 01:53:29 The TSG is officially one company. Mar 06 01:53:33 pupnik: good question. I guess no one of us has a sufficient sample size to tell Mar 06 01:53:38 what does that mean GeneralAntilles Mar 06 01:53:48 pupnik: my solder pulled off. Mar 06 01:54:06 did you fix it GeneralAntilles ? Mar 06 01:54:19 pupnik: Valtteri Halla Mar 06 01:54:21 pupnik: no. Mar 06 01:54:31 Just carrying a second battery. Mar 06 01:54:33 he nuked it :-P Mar 06 01:54:42 heh Mar 06 01:55:03 mine still connects at the right angle Mar 06 01:55:43 how widespread is the USB port problem? common manufacturing defect, or eventual inevitability? Mar 06 01:55:56 Inevitability it seems. Mar 06 01:56:04 GeneralAntilles: do I get this right? They finally managed to keep their elite club clean Mar 06 01:56:34 BCMM: unclear Mar 06 01:56:37 DocScrutinizer: which elite club? Mar 06 01:56:42 TSG Mar 06 01:57:45 wow, that will push forward meego. No doubt Mar 06 01:57:47 Oh, yeah. Mar 06 01:57:50 Seems like it. Mar 06 01:58:02 MeeGo Community Council seems more useful by the day. Mar 06 01:58:16 and less likely same time Mar 06 01:58:32 or more impotent Mar 06 01:58:57 BCMM: i stumbled over the cable two times (seinding the n900 flying) before it broke Mar 06 01:59:10 pupnik: fair enough :-S Mar 06 01:59:10 imo not inevitable Mar 06 01:59:44 thanks - i'll avoid that Mar 06 01:59:46 BCMM: I have no problems on two devices with sigma 20 months lifetime Mar 06 01:59:54 * javispedro 's n900 usb port is still fine, and this is ddp device Mar 06 02:00:24 Mine too Mar 06 02:00:33 Not ddp. Mar 06 02:01:00 Both my DDP and my September proto lost their USB ports. Mar 06 02:01:03 Treated gently. Mar 06 02:01:09 BCMM: just make sure you always pull and plug the jack straight in/out, no vanting Mar 06 02:01:13 cabting Mar 06 02:01:16 FFS Mar 06 02:01:19 canting Mar 06 02:02:30 BCMM: I got used to pull it out with my fingernails between plug and case, on both sides Mar 06 02:02:51 (small sides) Mar 06 02:02:59 yes i used both fingers on either side, then pulled by using both as levers to pull evenly Mar 06 02:03:12 * javispedro is actually mostly careless with the cable.. Mar 06 02:03:58 * javispedro looks at his n900 usb port, watches all of the dirt and shit there, wonders if that's what keeps the thing in place. Mar 06 02:04:29 does this affect all hw revisions or just those where the usb plug requires more `force' to push in/pull out than usual? Mar 06 02:04:39 well I'm also careless, except for using a virtually foolproof procedure. leveraging plug out with your nail against the case is highly unlikely to apply excess sideways force Mar 06 02:05:05 * pupnik found the n900 very durable Mar 06 02:05:24 odd, looks to me like the plastic casing prevents leverage anyway... Mar 06 02:05:27 from the kitchen sink to the oven, it still works :) Mar 06 02:05:37 pupnik, :) Mar 06 02:05:44 except for the speakers Mar 06 02:05:47 lol Mar 06 02:06:00 don't do this at home, children!! Mar 06 02:06:45 BCMM: au contraire Mar 06 02:07:27 all leverage from the usb cable goes to the connector and board Mar 06 02:07:29 of course it is durable, the front bezel is practically made of plastiline Mar 06 02:07:46 it absorbs all energy and converts into nice white bits Mar 06 02:08:08 as a reminder of those times when your brain's motor coordination engine messed up. Mar 06 02:08:26 javispedro: where's that wheed from? :-P Mar 06 02:08:43 the micro-usb cable from nokia has 2-2.2 cm leverage ... not the worst, but i could imagine better Mar 06 02:08:50 it's just the result of been hacking for way too much time. Mar 06 02:09:26 pupnik: I'm searching and thinking and planning for way better Mar 06 02:09:40 ala with few results so far Mar 06 02:09:59 planning for a usb cable with shorter leverage? Mar 06 02:10:03 yep Mar 06 02:10:14 I have the bits to make it - but they're not here Mar 06 02:10:20 i would buy one Mar 06 02:10:26 * DocScrutinizer too Mar 06 02:11:02 with a nice sollbruchstelle maybe even Mar 06 02:11:21 sometimes german language is just better Mar 06 02:11:40 know the macbook power connector? Mar 06 02:11:46 buzzword magnet Mar 06 02:11:48 haha Mar 06 02:11:53 yea Mar 06 02:11:58 I want a pre-like induction thing ;) Mar 06 02:12:13 javispedro: wait til my bare PCB arrives Mar 06 02:12:32 I also like it at least tries to be a cradle-like thing. Mar 06 02:12:41 like the high end handhelds when they were truly highend Mar 06 02:13:10 I had a prototype USB connector with charging. Mar 06 02:13:22 instead of the current crap where you are lucky if they even send you a free replacement stylus. Mar 06 02:13:40 Polarised magnetic +5, D+, D-, ground, ESD protected and reverse protected. Mar 06 02:13:51 yeah, they did with my repair \o/ Mar 06 02:14:04 But it would need lots of development. Mar 06 02:15:21 http://bp0.blogger.com/_CD0JETuihEE/SAbzeGioKwI/AAAAAAAABro/PFCBMD0o9tg/s1600-h/1900.jpg Mar 06 02:15:41 actually I consider the whole micro-USB a dead end street. Will go for inductive or simple gold contact pads plus pogopins charging Mar 06 02:16:04 cradle Mar 06 02:19:48 nice predictions nox- ... "photographs will be telegraphed from any distance" Mar 06 02:19:58 DocScrutinizer: portability... Mar 06 02:20:08 yeah Mar 06 02:20:18 cradle+wall-wart will always be bigger than plug+wall-wart Mar 06 02:20:20 nox-: When was this? Mar 06 02:20:23 nox-: pupnik: "American audiences in their theatres will view upon huge curtains before them [...] the progress of battles in the Orient". Mar 06 02:20:36 "cameras connected by screens" ... Mar 06 02:20:37 nice Mar 06 02:20:53 BCMM: I don't care about portability. It's my device, my rework, my cradle, and I got TWO of those devices Mar 06 02:20:57 I guess some stuff never changes ;) Mar 06 02:21:04 "store purchases by tube!" Mar 06 02:21:05 :D Mar 06 02:21:18 SpeedEvil, 1900 i think Mar 06 02:21:20 ooh you mean transportability Mar 06 02:21:40 well, the USB jack still is there Mar 06 02:21:42 BCMM: have you seen the pre cradle? Mar 06 02:21:54 BCMM: it's quite small; probably the size of the ac adapter itself. Mar 06 02:22:12 (depends on which country ac adapter ;) ) Mar 06 02:22:21 SpeedEvil: ""...until the dawn of 2001, a hundered years from now"" Mar 06 02:22:32 DocScrutinizer: i don't understand what you thought i meant... Mar 06 02:22:49 i mean "plugging it in on the train" Mar 06 02:23:00 BCMM: like migration to other devices, platforms, whatever Mar 06 02:23:15 oh, interoperability Mar 06 02:23:35 BCMM: on train I'll use the original Nokia charger with the original N900 micro-USB Mar 06 02:23:36 standardised inductive charging could take off i suppose Mar 06 02:23:58 but it would have to be very widespread to stop people carrying adaptors Mar 06 02:24:04 inductive charging? Take off? I have a video on that! Mar 06 02:24:19 taking off literaly I guess :-P Mar 06 02:24:24 heh Mar 06 02:24:25 http://www.flickr.com/photos/14560445@N08/5330749864/ Mar 06 02:24:49 i mean, like on every train and built into every table at Starbucks sorta widespread Mar 06 02:25:10 chicken and egg; it'd be like trying to switch to electric cars :) Mar 06 02:25:22 Or electric chickens. Mar 06 02:25:56 meh! binary system for ever Mar 06 02:26:00 great idea: use inductive charging for your electric car! Mar 06 02:26:12 Already exists. Mar 06 02:26:18 =) Mar 06 02:26:22 I'm not talking about boolean, but about astronomy and fscknf flickr Mar 06 02:26:48 it's been done for busses somewhere, i think Mar 06 02:26:55 javispedro: there's a tram that has inductive power Mar 06 02:27:00 massive inductive charger under the bus stops, you see Mar 06 02:27:02 all along the raols Mar 06 02:27:05 rails Mar 06 02:27:11 DocScrutinizer: why? Mar 06 02:27:26 it's on rails anyway, "contactless" is pretty pointless Mar 06 02:27:47 dunno, maybe because they thought it's cheaper than cramming in even more of those 1000F capacitors Mar 06 02:27:50 Nokia was a member of some inductive charging standarization program iric Mar 06 02:27:52 *iirc Mar 06 02:28:07 except when you want it for ppl to be safe to cross the rails maybe? Mar 06 02:28:16 javispedro: Might you be thinking of near-field-comms? Mar 06 02:28:32 no no, i remember it being about power. Mar 06 02:28:52 BCMM: you can't put voltage on rails of a tram :-P Well you can, but I guess it won't earn you a memorial in that town Mar 06 02:29:13 found it -- > own Mar 06 02:29:15 err.. Mar 06 02:29:20 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wireless_Power_Consortium Mar 06 02:29:40 yeah, but it's on a fixed route - i can't believe it's cheaper and less disruptive to bury inductive chargers along the entire length of the rail than to put up overheads Mar 06 02:29:43 DocScrutinizer, what i thought :) Mar 06 02:30:16 BCMM: If you put the chargers at the stops, and charge fast, it can work out cheape.r Mar 06 02:30:30 yeah, that would make sense Mar 06 02:30:56 * DocScrutinizer envisions a bike falling and shorting the rails - BRAAAAAZZZZ Mar 06 02:31:25 then the tram goes over the poor guy --- RUSSSSSHHH Mar 06 02:31:41 Induction chargers are fun too. Mar 06 02:31:52 Bike falls on its side, and wheels glow white hot. Mar 06 02:31:57 SpeedEvil: on that tram they crammed the whole roof with goldcaps, to jump little gaps that are unavoidable Mar 06 02:32:24 LiFePO4 is adequate for this sort of service. Mar 06 02:32:53 well, I thought the whole idea was invented after 9 beer Mar 06 02:33:29 better build cablecars X-P Mar 06 02:33:46 cablecars are awesome Mar 06 02:34:11 I want skytran. Mar 06 02:34:14 (in very specific geography, if there isn't too much wind) Mar 06 02:34:17 but massively awesome Mar 06 02:34:26 http://www.skytran.net/ Mar 06 02:34:33 Packet switched people! Mar 06 02:34:33 skytran? peoplemover? Mar 06 02:34:54 Little single person maglev rail on street-light type poles. Mar 06 02:35:12 skytran.net needs some pics... Mar 06 02:35:28 More than that Mar 06 02:35:38 hmm Mar 06 02:35:51 thought you talk about peoplemover Mar 06 02:36:04 In principle the amount of energy to move a single person streamlined maglev car can be teeeny Mar 06 02:36:06 unfortunately, this skytran thing has one big disadvantage Mar 06 02:36:33 according to their website http://www.skytran.net/phpsite/home/shopping.html it is only able to take you from brooklyn to the nyc Apple store. Mar 06 02:37:00 for the travel back home, Apple is happy to sell you an iBike that works with the iPod wheel as energy source. Mar 06 02:37:02 That is an example, :) Mar 06 02:37:22 (obviously ;) ) Mar 06 02:37:46 Packet switching is an awesome technology, if it could be made to work. Mar 06 02:37:51 http://www.sea.siemens.com/us/Products/Gearboxes-and-Couplings/Railcar-Systems/Pages/People-Mover.aspx been somewhat involved in bulding that one Mar 06 02:37:57 Along with low energy peronal vehicles. Mar 06 02:38:55 DocScrutinizer, reminds me of wuppertal :) Mar 06 02:39:02 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inductrack is fun. Mar 06 02:39:02 http://shweeb.com/gallery/01/Shweeb-in-action.jpg Mar 06 02:39:07 bicycle monorail Mar 06 02:39:13 well, cycle at any rate Mar 06 02:39:19 Lots of litz, and magnets = passive maglev. Mar 06 02:39:26 In principle, you can do horsedrawn maglev. Mar 06 02:40:11 nox-: we only did the sw for dortmund and duesseldorf Mar 06 02:40:21 hehe Mar 06 02:40:27 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j2Ujx5x61io Mar 06 02:41:24 DocScrutinizer, https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/de/wiki/Wuppertaler_Schwebebahn Mar 06 02:42:05 I know wuppertaler and the elephant Mar 06 02:42:11 heh yeah Mar 06 02:42:24 the poor animal Mar 06 02:42:33 *nod* Mar 06 02:45:02 SpeedEvil: that's really cool, especially the way there is negligible flux in the passenger compartment making your n900 malfunction Mar 06 02:45:07 or pacemaker i guess, but meh. Mar 06 02:47:12 http://www.nostalgische.schwebebahn.net/0-pics/5-barmen/altermarkt/tuffi-elefant-1950.jpg Mar 06 02:47:42 * javispedro wishes for some meego conference to be held in düsseldorf so that he'd have an excuse to go there and visit the skytrain thing Mar 06 02:49:15 google for peoplemover siemens dortmund, another one I contributed Mar 06 02:52:44 obviously, a suspended monorail system that's been working since the 19th century gets its first fatal accident on the late nineties Mar 06 02:52:51 http://www.mein-dortmund.de/h-bahn.html Mar 06 02:53:49 engineers make nice things happen Mar 06 02:53:54 this one usually operates on demand Mar 06 02:54:44 somebody teling "me" he wants a lift, and the next free cabin is there usually in less then 30s (iirc) Mar 06 02:56:08 cool Mar 06 02:56:15 of course you also can make the thing operate on regular schedule Mar 06 02:56:44 with computers you could have individual railcars Mar 06 02:56:48 funny parts of the software are things like service vehicle Mar 06 02:59:06 why ? Mar 06 02:59:37 http://www.h-bahn.de/de/technik/index.php compare the keyboards to that: http://www.tentacle.franken.de/m80/index.html **** ENDING LOGGING AT Sun Mar 06 02:59:57 2011