**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Thu Mar 17 02:59:57 2011 Mar 17 03:00:31 Like my example with the pressure gage on the pipe, the pressure gage is a circuit with infinite (or really big) resistance between the pipe and the ground, then you add a little turbine thingy in the pipe between the faucet to measure current flow, why can't somthing like that be done with the electricity comming fromthe battery? Mar 17 03:01:17 it is done like that, nevertheless logically the two things are unrelated Mar 17 03:02:07 and disjunkt Mar 17 03:05:48 If the faucet lead to a sealed room, if the room was pressurized to the point of having more pressure than the pipes, both the current and the pressure measured values on the pipe would be negative. Mar 17 03:05:58 TiagoTiago: so you have a pressure gauge to measure pressure and turbine in tap to measure flow, that's different things, what makes that different from how it's done for battery, where volt and amps is also different? Mar 17 03:06:46 No, 'cause the values of the two always share the same sign Mar 17 03:07:15 TiagoTiago: no, in the case of the pressurized room, the water pressure would be positive, and the flow would be negative Mar 17 03:07:28 But with the battery no the N900, in the loop mode of that bq script, volts and amps don't always share the same sign Mar 17 03:08:05 The pressure gage is measuring the pressure difference between inside the pipe and the rest of the room Mar 17 03:08:21 (forget what i said about ground) Mar 17 03:08:41 uh huh, but that's not what the battery gauge measures Mar 17 03:10:32 * DocScrutinizer sighs Mar 17 03:10:58 the battery voltage measurement is more useful the way it is now, because it says how much power is left *inside* the battery, which is quite useful to know Mar 17 03:11:26 besides it's not clear what else you'd want to measure Mar 17 03:11:32 There is no measure of the voltage difference between the battery and the device? Mar 17 03:11:36 we're not interested in the voltage drop along the copper trace from battery to device Mar 17 03:11:44 (well, not really) Mar 17 03:12:07 it's supposed to be ~0 Mar 17 03:12:45 I just found it confusing that it reports volts and amps but not of the same thing, i was expecting it to provide values that could be used to calculate how many watts the device is sucking Mar 17 03:13:10 you can Mar 17 03:13:10 * DocScrutinizer SIGHS Mar 17 03:13:17 You can't calculate watts without knowing both the amps and the volts Mar 17 03:14:01 going tru / and found across the device. You're not interested in the watts the copper trace is dissipating Mar 17 03:14:01 you have both amps and volts... if you get negative watts, that means the device is charging the battery instead of draining it Mar 17 03:14:09 If they are from different things then it's like trying to calculate someone's bodymass index by using their height but their dog's weight Mar 17 03:14:41 BS Mar 17 03:15:03 it's ONE thing: your device Mar 17 03:15:18 it got a plus- and a minus-pole Mar 17 03:15:21 Current can't flow against the voltage Mar 17 03:15:50 voltage is between plus and minus, while current is either going into plus or coming out of minus Mar 17 03:15:59 as said, if you're charging, the charger has a higher voltage than the battery, so current will flow into the battery Mar 17 03:16:13 unless your're measuring the voltage of somthing else instead of the circuit you're measuring the amperage Mar 17 03:16:37 but the charger voltage is not measured here Mar 17 03:16:50 just the battery voltage Mar 17 03:16:54 how can it be going to + without coming from - ? Mar 17 03:17:06 I give up Mar 17 03:18:01 I'm sorry, this thing with measuring things a different way but still saying it as if it was the same is confusing me Mar 17 03:19:34 current can come from anywhere it is forced into the circuit, like from the power grid... doesn't have to come from the battery you're charging. Mar 17 03:19:46 tiago:: let's look at something else Mar 17 03:19:51 consider temperature Mar 17 03:20:04 let's have 3 rooms A .. B .. C Mar 17 03:20:20 If I make the temperature in room C 50degrees Mar 17 03:20:31 and the temperature in the next room (B) 30degrees Mar 17 03:20:55 then at some point there's going to be a transfer of heat from C to B Mar 17 03:21:08 it's going from a place with +++++ to a place with +++ Mar 17 03:21:19 I could make A have a temperature of -10degrees Mar 17 03:21:47 but it's still possible for things to go from +++++ to +++ instead of having to go to a place with - Mar 17 03:22:02 does that make any sense? :) Mar 17 03:23:24 btw, the use of + and - in electricity was actually arbitrary, it's now consistently used with + and - in a certain way Mar 17 03:23:29 but it could have been the other way Mar 17 03:24:07 But when we talk about volts we mean difference and not absolute values Mar 17 03:25:03 It turns out it is backwards, actual electrons flow from negative to positive, but they kept it reversed for backwards compatibility Mar 17 03:25:31 TiagoTiago: I told you you can not measure device Watts by bq27200. It's a dedicated battery monitor hardware. It *only* shows _battery_ voltage (between + and - of battery) and battery current in/out. Device with all the consumers and charger is on the other end Mar 17 03:27:04 the charger also can power the device consumers directly, then this part of current will not be seen by bq27200 Mar 17 03:27:06 So there is no direct way to measure watts consumption, we can onlyestimate it by watching the effects of that consumption? Mar 17 03:27:54 yes... if you remove the charger, then the two must be equal Mar 17 03:28:10 as told way above, you can plug and unplug charger. The difference in battery current is what the device actually consumes Mar 17 03:28:44 err, is what the charger supplies Mar 17 03:29:22 current*volt of battery == current*volt of device sans charger, so this is a pretty accurate reading Mar 17 03:30:39 but if device sucks 1A, and charger supplies 700mA, then battery will read 300mA DIScharge, even while charger plugged in Mar 17 03:31:02 this is what bq27200 will show you: 300mA Mar 17 03:31:43 DISCHARGE (and a warning will pop up "charger doesn't supply enough energy" OWTTE) Mar 17 03:32:18 Ok Mar 17 03:34:49 Current goes negative because it is measured between battery and device, but voltage stays positive 'cause it is measure between the battery + and the battery - , alright, i can live with that Mar 17 03:36:02 Makes lots more sense than negative watts Mar 17 03:36:17 well, negative watts does make sense Mar 17 03:37:20 Not for me, current can't flow against the pressure difference Mar 17 03:37:23 watts is the flow of energy... so positive could mean energy is flowing out of the battery, and negative is energy is flowing into the battery from the charger Mar 17 03:37:33 negative watts do make as much sense as do negative voltages and currents Mar 17 03:37:36 unless you're mixing apples and oranges Mar 17 03:38:35 TiagoTiago: you are mixing apples with oranges. We never said voltage is along the wire from battery to device Mar 17 03:39:09 we actually always explained those two physical values are largely unrelated Mar 17 03:39:17 how many times do we have to tell you? the charger puts on a BIGGER pressure than the battery, therefore current flows "backwards" into the battery Mar 17 03:39:51 I've never heard it was possible for them to have opposite signs in the same length of wire Mar 17 03:40:14 volt is relative, not absolute Mar 17 03:40:25 but the measurement between the battery poles (as opposed to the voltage between battery and charger) will measure how much power is delivered to/from the battery Mar 17 03:40:32 I honestly have to leave now, to keep my mood up Mar 17 03:40:43 Sorry Mar 17 03:41:41 How can it flow against the pressure difference? Mar 17 03:41:54 [04:36] how many times do we have to tell you? the charger puts on a BIGGER pressure than the battery, therefore current flows "backwards" into the battery Mar 17 03:42:41 the pressure difference forces the current that way, into the battery Mar 17 03:42:51 Current and Voltage can't have opposit signs unless you're measuring different circuits Mar 17 03:44:15 let's say you have a 5V battery, and the charger can deliver 10V, and the negative poles of both are both grounded. Then you have three levels: CHARGER+ = 10V, BATTERY+ = 5V, GROUND = 0V... since current always flows from a higher potential to a lower, this forces current towards the + pole of the battery Mar 17 03:45:28 disconnect the charger and put in a machine you want to run, and then the current will of course flow from the battery + pole to the battery - pole Mar 17 03:46:52 TiagoTiago: PLEASE LISTEN!!! current is in ONE point. Volatge is between TWO points. The both are first instance COMPLETELY unrelated, as in there's no voltage associated to a current Mar 17 03:47:16 then the voltage between + and - on the battery is always 5V, but the current can be reversed Mar 17 03:47:23 just by attaching the charger... Mar 17 03:49:07 If the one point where you measure current is between the two points you use to measure voltage then the sign will always match Mar 17 03:49:16 it just happens bq27200 meassures voltage and current of the battery, it as well could measure voltage of the microphone if that would help us more that the current setup. But voltage displayed by bq27200 is NOT responsable or related to the current displayed there Mar 17 03:51:41 TiagoTiago: well, you cannot measure current inside the battery, only outside of it... Mar 17 03:52:19 if the one point isn't between the two points then you're not measuring the properties of the same thing, you can't use thos two values to calculate wattage, it's like the bodymass index with your dog's weight Mar 17 03:53:58 TiagoTiago: there's a physical law that says that unless the circuit has branches, the current is always the same anywhere in the circuit, so you can measure the current anywhere you want Mar 17 03:54:32 if the circuit has branches, the total current through each branch must add up to be equal to what it would have been if it was not Mar 17 03:55:56 What if the branches lead to or from outside the circuit? Mar 17 03:56:19 c'mon please stop that nonsense now. It's becoming silly or annoying or dunno what Mar 17 03:56:43 if there's a current through those, then it must still add up Mar 17 03:56:57 conservation of energy Mar 17 04:01:39 villager: don't run into that trap again. Voltage is measured between two points, but given there's no line between those two points (as a voltmeter is of infinite resistance) there's also no location "between" those two points. Current and voltage measurements are unrelated, and connecting them without referring to a particular background aka circuit makes no sense Mar 17 04:02:28 DocScrutinizer: yes, but I feel such technicalities would not be helpful to talk about right now... Mar 17 04:03:02 nothing has the faintest look like it'S helpful here Mar 17 04:03:09 well, perhaps I should be getting back to doing something useful anyway Mar 17 04:05:18 I do understand that if you ignore a part of the system the signs can diverge, but on a closed system the signs should always agree Mar 17 04:06:28 okay, then consider the battery the part of the system under measurement, and the battery is not a closed system, and let's leave it at that... Mar 17 04:17:50 to generate configure, i run "autoconf" which uses configure.in, correct? Mar 17 04:19:14 when i try that, i get a totally different configure from the one shipped with libSDL Mar 17 04:19:22 958937 Mar 17 05:16 configure.orig Mar 17 04:19:28 266176 Mar 17 05:16 configure Mar 17 04:20:11 * DocScrutinizer mumbles diff Mar 17 04:21:16 though those filesizes are friggin scary both of them Mar 17 04:21:29 lol Mar 17 04:21:40 ok "autoreconf" command creates a working configure Mar 17 04:22:26 autotools are a PITA anyway Mar 17 04:25:42 amen DocScrutinizer Mar 17 04:26:40 yet, despite being a PITA, cumbersome, and sometimes wrong, they are still kinda the best in town in terms of comprehensive support for environment detection Mar 17 04:27:46 I don't really think that's true. Mar 17 04:28:18 You have to put just as much time to get it to work on another platform as always, because if you haven't actually tested it, it won't. Mar 17 04:37:01 derf: I "kinda" agree for projects with few dependencies. With projects with huge dependencies, the network effects of those dependencies also providing ac .m4 files is awesome Mar 17 04:37:44 No, because if your platform is at all unusual, then half of them will break, too. Mar 17 04:37:54 alright, imm going to sleep, cya Mar 17 04:42:08 I think you are looking at it from a distro perspective, not from a project developer perspective ? Mar 17 04:44:02 No, I am a project developer. Mar 17 04:44:27 I am too Mar 17 04:44:44 I will give you we do spend a good amount of time on our autoconf Mar 17 04:45:11 but I have to also realized that I would have to spend A LOT more if I coded by ourselves all the dependencies detection we have Mar 17 04:57:28 sup a;\ll Mar 17 05:03:16 hi all Mar 17 05:08:53 hi Mar 17 05:36:21 the joys of skype ppl you dont know just call outta the blue Mar 17 05:47:43 it's ludicrous they report dosages like 1mSv/h for the Fukushima plant a bit off from the reactor buildings, but OTOH the helicopter action had to get stopped yesterday due to radiation levels too high, and today they have equipped the helicopers with Pb shielding for the pilots so they won't get hurt when flying at a level of maybe 100m above the site. This sounds more like 1MSv/h rather than 1mSv/h Mar 17 05:53:32 off the site upwind is much less than above the burning building Mar 17 05:56:20 lofty306: ( GE sending 10 gas turbine generators to japan) so is that supposed to help on the FUKU-site? Doesn't Japan have such things themselves? I heard they brought generators to there on day0 or day1, but it didn't work, for unknown reasons. Now they come up with big news they hope to complete a powerline to FUKU today, and start the cooling again. It's really all so three-stooges, freaking scary sh*t Mar 17 05:57:30 pupnik: winds would spread particles that aren't any dangerous *outside* the heli for the pilot inside. Plus a lead shielding wouldn't help at all for that Mar 17 05:59:39 gamma rays penetrate aluminum etc Mar 17 06:00:18 yeah sure, but the mere distance from those microscopic particles... Mar 17 06:01:09 a large area is radioactive with high energy rays. sheilding is helpful Mar 17 06:02:10 and psychologically as well Mar 17 06:02:50 and they would not be flying at 1,000,000Sv/h Mar 17 06:02:54 if the radiation level a 100..200m horizontally off the reactor is at 1mSv then I can't see any serious danger for a heli pilot hoovering a 100m above that Mar 17 06:03:15 DocScrutinizer, totaly 3stooges Mar 17 06:03:57 heat rises prob taking the radiation wwith it Mar 17 06:04:30 sure, but then a Pb shielding is totally useless, esp when placed under the pilot seat only Mar 17 06:05:12 they 1mSv/h is like 5-10 chest x-rays per hour Mar 17 06:05:17 lol Mar 17 06:05:28 yay x rays Mar 17 06:06:13 yeah, or like living in arbitrary clean places for 1 year Mar 17 06:09:48 i just realized that the Pegatron tablet is 11.6"' Mar 17 06:25:38 DocScrutinizer, I was wondering if the power situation was similar fuckup as at one of sweden's reactors Mar 17 06:26:34 Where all internal backup power failed because the components to synchronize with the grid frequency were identical and failed, and refused to cold boot Mar 17 06:27:58 Two army helicopters made four attempts to drop seawater on unit 3, but this did not appear accurate enough to be effective. Tepco said in a news conference that radiation readings had dropped from 3.780 millisieverts to 3.752 millisieverts, so the effect at present seems marginal at best. Mar 17 06:28:08 do the japanese use . where we use ,? Mar 17 06:28:14 because... that'd be baaad. Mar 17 06:29:38 doc|home, sounds like that . is a thousand separator Mar 17 06:30:25 a fireboat would be nice but wooould need to be manned Mar 17 06:32:15 Is there a gps app that supports offline maps? I'm in singapore and I want to download the whole city while on wlan, all zoom levels, or at least the higher ones and then use it offline Mar 17 06:33:43 gps is secondary (I'm aware locating is slow/impossible without AGPS) but I at least want the maps Mar 17 06:34:44 well, I'd consider it best practice to avoid 1.234 and 1,234 - just use 1.2340 and 1234.0 and 123400.0 and then 1,234,567 Mar 17 06:36:23 huh? Mar 17 06:37:19 Shapeshifter: marble Mar 17 06:39:39 DocScrutinizer: I'll check it out, thanks Mar 17 06:39:40 lofty306: ?? do not use thousand separators on numbers <7digits, do not use 3 decimals Mar 17 06:40:18 1,000 Mar 17 06:40:25 fck! Mar 17 06:41:25 im still lost Mar 17 06:41:39 well, obviously Mar 17 06:42:16 me runs hides Mar 17 06:42:24 better that Mar 17 06:43:08 * lofty306 runs hides Mar 17 06:43:21 lofty306: so . = thousand separator? Mar 17 06:43:32 in .jp Mar 17 06:43:40 now is that 1000.0 or is that 1,00 Mar 17 06:43:41 ? Mar 17 06:43:45 oh i dont know what they use Mar 17 06:43:47 that's what I was asking Mar 17 06:43:56 ahhhh :) Mar 17 06:44:15 night Mar 17 06:44:33 I like ' as a thousand separator Mar 17 06:44:41 1'000'000 Mar 17 06:44:43 it ws almost like you asked the first part in another channel Mar 17 06:46:14 hmm apparently japan uses a decimal point so 1.345 would be 1-point-345 Mar 17 06:46:34 ruskie: thank fuck Mar 17 06:46:37 * doc|home goes to bed Mar 17 06:47:20 1mSv/h Mar 17 06:47:39 1000µSv Mar 17 06:47:43 yes Mar 17 06:48:01 night Mar 17 06:48:05 o/ Mar 17 06:49:20 * ShadowJK 's arduino is waiting for him at the post office Mar 17 06:52:04 ShadowJK, for reprap or other projects? Mar 17 06:52:38 thing took bloody long enough to get here I forgot what I was going to do Mar 17 06:52:51 hehehe Mar 17 07:02:07 if an N900 shuts down (usually) a few seconds after charger cable is removed, should one expect hardware problems? Mar 17 07:02:17 s/expect/suspect/ Mar 17 07:02:18 mece meant: if an N900 shuts down (usually) a few seconds after charger cable is removed, should one suspect hardware problems? Mar 17 07:08:12 mece: completely fsckd battery I suspect Mar 17 07:08:51 DocScrutinizer, apparently tested with 2 different batteries. It's not my phone so I don't have all the details currently. Mar 17 07:09:19 then it gets hard to diagnose this Mar 17 07:09:22 DocScrutinizer, do you know of a battery charger to charge the n900 batteries outside of the phone? Mar 17 07:09:48 there are plenty Mar 17 07:10:17 hmm Mar 17 07:10:19 is the peron acidently grabbung the phone on the power button? Mar 17 07:10:23 bootreason: sw_rst Mar 17 07:10:25 *person Mar 17 07:10:56 ive done that more than once when unplugging Mar 17 07:11:26 lofty306, lol no. Mar 17 07:23:25 well, swap batteries. reflash. clean battery contacts of device. send in for repair. - simple like that Mar 17 07:24:44 aah, and of course make sure it's actually charging battery! use bq27200.sh to confirm Mar 17 07:26:14 e.g. an external charger providing dunno 3.8V could operate the device for days, but never charge battery Mar 17 07:27:35 Also check for overclocking (don't) and smartreflex (don't) :P Mar 17 07:27:45 yeah Mar 17 07:28:00 (charging has side effects on the way the CPU is run) Mar 17 07:28:16 indeed Mar 17 07:31:37 whats smartreflex? Mar 17 07:32:49 http://focus.ti.com/general/docs/wtbu/wtbugencontent.tsp?templateId=6123&navigationId=12032&contentId=4609 Mar 17 07:33:43 SmartReflex technologies are a broad range of intelligent and adaptive hardware and software techniques that dynamically control voltage, frequency and power based on device activity, modes of operation and temperature. Mar 17 07:34:30 It's a thing some people find on forums and then turn on Mar 17 07:35:11 here smartreflex as ShadowJK used it means the automatic switching of core supply voltages, without any software controlling that. It gets enabled via some sysnode Mar 17 07:35:14 ahh.. and it mucks things all up? Mar 17 07:36:02 it's said to cause instabilities on N900, yes Mar 17 07:36:12 It's disabled-by-default for a reason Mar 17 07:37:07 for the same reason Nokia doesn't ship the device OC'd to 1000MHz - they know their hardware Mar 17 07:37:18 im not one to try power mgmt things just for the hell of it though if i had a spare i'd proob be more apt to do alot of things Mar 17 07:38:38 brb glasses filthy Mar 17 07:38:44 you could argue they might have missed or dropped some small points and so SR *should* be enabled, but I doubt they are that incompetent Mar 17 07:39:19 I'd probably myself backup everything (including music, videos and photos) and reflash just to check, and if it still does it I'd excercise warranty Mar 17 07:39:41 first check charger! Mar 17 07:39:58 first of all Mar 17 07:40:11 * ShadowJK sleepsä Mar 17 07:40:15 check if it does the same on PC Mar 17 07:41:17 of course a nuked bme could well explain such behaviour too Mar 17 07:41:46 but you'd notice that, by borked charging notification Mar 17 07:42:50 well, diagnose by proxy is a nuisance Mar 17 07:43:35 plus I'm not sure mece is listening at all Mar 17 07:44:16 was afk, I am now.. what what? Mar 17 07:44:41 ok lemme read the comments Mar 17 07:45:00 ( bootreason: sw_rst ) what now? shutdown or reboot? Mar 17 07:45:35 yes.. ok. Don't think he has smartreflex and it's not oc'd Mar 17 07:49:15 DocScrutinizer, did any more usb ports come off after the initial rash of them ? Mar 17 07:49:27 mece: if that's shutdown then I suspect battery doesn't get charged. Plug switched off device via cable to PC, do not "power up" Mar 17 07:49:38 and were thoes pre productioom ones? Mar 17 07:49:47 unclear Mar 17 07:50:05 there's an occasional fatality report every 2 weeks Mar 17 07:50:09 lofty306, mine came off and it was retail. Mar 17 07:50:15 eek Mar 17 07:50:25 lofty306, the newer devices have the same problem. Mar 17 07:50:56 mece: if it's reboot then probably sw error, triggered by dsme Mar 17 07:50:57 i filed the hooks off my micro usb endss Mar 17 07:51:19 that's largely useless Mar 17 07:51:21 it's shutdown Mar 17 07:52:42 so charge via PC, in ACT_DEAD. Watch LED. Should turn green after some hours. Then power up and unplug Mar 17 07:53:41 preferably run bq27200.sh prior to unplug, save the printout Mar 17 07:54:12 even *during* unplug, on a ssh, with loop period 5 Mar 17 07:55:04 ok, I'll ask him to do that. Not sure he understands it all though. Mar 17 07:56:36 look at this for an example how the printout should look like http://wiki.maemo.org/User:Joerg_rw/jrbme/bme_chargefloat_log Mar 17 07:59:22 the instructions are easy, once he managed to get the tools installed: plug powered down device to PC and watch it charge (amber LED ->green). When green, switch on, then log in via WLAN/ssh, and do ""bq27200.sh; bq27200.sh 5". Then unplug. Send copy of the log printed at ssh terminal Mar 17 08:00:21 s/send/pastebin/. Mar 17 08:00:30 DocScrutinizer, nice. I'll give him the instructions Mar 17 08:02:52 * mece goes afk Mar 17 08:02:59 * DocScrutinizer too Mar 17 08:04:03 Hello everybody! I am using MADDE for Maemo 5, and it seems that QEMU is too slow (maybe due to its animation effects).. Any tricks to overcome this slowness ? Mar 17 08:08:40 tell me, isn't Sony a japanese company? Don't they build all sorts of professional Video equipment? So WTF isn't there a single generator or car battery powered surveilance cam sending a 24/7 live stream of every critical point of Fukushima? Mar 17 08:09:58 also I thought it's been Toyota or somesuch company that had those funny little andoids. The damn should have enough bots over there to send some even inside the hot blocks Mar 17 08:11:28 it's plain incredible they play "3 stooges save the day at a dead nuklear plant" since 6 days now Mar 17 08:12:16 whats more incredible is the pure sensationalism and lack of much fact in whats being reported at most news outlets Mar 17 08:13:15 MohammadAG: ping Mar 17 08:19:19 nidO: well, >>The head of the U.S. Nuclear Regulatory Commission said that the fuel pool at unit 4 had run dry and as a result, radiation levels at the plant were "extremely high". TEPCO denied that the pool had run dry and said "the condition is stable" at unit 4<< [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_the_Fukushima_nuclear_accidents] doesn't exactly help to stop the rumour and rant and speculation. News outlets face a stampede of Mar 17 08:19:21 customers asking for better news. They can't state "we got only shit. That's it" two times a day Mar 17 08:22:27 actually the lack of facts, hard facts, at each and every announcement of tepco, JP gvmt and JP atomic authority, that's the most amazing thing Mar 17 08:23:44 Doc: Once again, it is a hierarchical society Mar 17 08:23:54 better don't say anything and act like 3 stooges, than give full disclosure and reveal how everybody got lied at since 30 years Mar 17 08:23:55 DocScrutinizer: the point actually is more that that report rightly states that the spent fuel pool was low on water, which they tried to refill via helicopter - yet most news outlets have been reporting they were trying to dump water onto reactor cores a-la chernobyl Mar 17 08:24:05 when the cores arent even exposed. Mar 17 08:24:31 sadly most media now-a-days tries to be sensationalistic Mar 17 08:25:05 Doc: Whoever stands up and gives full disclosure will be automatically assigned to be the guilty party Mar 17 08:25:18 Hence no disclosure. Mar 17 08:25:38 I most recently learnt there might be a SpentFuelPool at block3 as well Mar 17 08:26:21 Each block has a spent fuel pool Mar 17 08:26:24 tbh, the "good news" is that these 40 year-old reactors survived an earthquake several times more powerful than they were designed to without a scratch, and have only fucked up because the backup diesel generators and backup backup generators were washed away Mar 17 08:28:29 so they actually got 6 reactor blocks plus 6 SFP and while they were staring at block1,3 reactor, the SFP's at #4, #3, #4, #6 are BBQing their stupid asses Mar 17 08:29:00 #4, #3, #5, #6 Mar 17 08:29:31 I just wonder if and when the SFPs at #1, #2 will catch fire Mar 17 08:31:45 nidO: near miss. "3" higher and the bullet had only messed up his hairstyling. Almost luck" Mar 17 08:32:11 too embarasing and the japanese dooont like being embarrased.... also doooooont want any video of what they might of done wrong when allthis goes to court Mar 17 08:32:31 they dont want to make the BP mmistake Mar 17 08:33:18 they are so stupid they don't realize they already are "dead" and there's no face left to lose Mar 17 08:33:47 like in WW-II Mar 17 08:33:55 beter die than surrender Mar 17 08:34:56 Morning Mar 17 08:34:59 Once again, not stupid, just different from you Mar 17 08:35:01 they said there is 130ton spent pool at #4 90ton at #3, #2, #1 150ton aat #5 and 160 ton at#6 Mar 17 08:35:21 And I doubt good old Germans behaved any different at the end of WWII Mar 17 08:35:33 \o/ Mar 17 08:35:36 Also having a strictly hierarchical society Mar 17 08:36:16 Wtf? Discussion taken a turn for the godwin? Mar 17 08:36:21 umm, well point taken, though I don't agree 100% Mar 17 08:36:23 mece: Nah Mar 17 08:37:11 aah japan. ok. I just opened the windows and saw wwii and germans :D Mar 17 08:38:03 there must be a reason they were allied in WW-II Mar 17 08:39:13 though to me it seems over there really little has changed in mentality since, even when here not everything is sunshine Mar 17 08:42:33 well, in WW-II they've had tackled the friggin plant on day0 with 30000 voluntary kamikaze soldiers that had created an auxiliary powerline from next town with their own bodies Mar 17 08:43:01 hahaha Mar 17 08:43:30 now the seem lazy taking a week Mar 17 08:43:43 prob waitiing for the ge gensets Mar 17 08:52:13 I think RST38h has hit the point, when the generators failed they probably looked at the batteries, then cooked a tea and decided by a game of majong who's the asshead to call 'dady' and ask what to do now Mar 17 08:53:55 as that's their only option anyway, really. No at-site competence, everything has to get nodded off by dady Mar 17 08:56:31 and the only stupids were those who thought plans for emergency management based on such a strictly hierarchical structure could ever work Mar 17 08:58:24 two german engineers visited blocj 5 or 6 when the quake stroke. Was really funny to listen to their reports how the japanese acted despite a mag9 quake going on Mar 17 08:58:29 Doc: Actually, this is not how it works in these societies Mar 17 08:59:01 Doc: When they figured out that the things are bad, their manager must have told them to act lively, carry water in buckets if needed Mar 17 08:59:23 Doc: Then prayed to his gods and called his immediate manager to report the clusterfuck Mar 17 08:59:54 Doc: In the most neutral, optimistic tone possible ("A minor problem with overheating, we are working on it, will be fixed in no time") Mar 17 09:01:42 and now we are at the rot of the issue Mar 17 09:01:48 root even Mar 17 09:01:57 rotten root maybe Mar 17 09:02:13 Absolutely the same algorithm will be executed at each level of the hierarchy, actually Mar 17 09:02:29 there's no room for asian politeness when messing with a critical reactor Mar 17 09:02:29 So, yea, you can call it a root, but it is happening at the whole length of the root Mar 17 09:03:05 Once, again, it is *not* "asian politeness". Germans or Soviets would exercise absolutely the same scheme Mar 17 09:03:40 I'm severly afraid you are right on this one Mar 17 09:03:49 With small differences in the outcome (Japanese would commit seppuku, Germans would be shot, Soviets imprisoned in Siberia) Mar 17 09:03:50 the 3stooges scheme? Mar 17 09:06:00 wil time to sennnd in HomerSimpson Mar 17 09:06:07 *well Mar 17 09:06:32 nah, that's for sure a cultural difference. Here in D at least the man with the hat on would eventually get a brain and ask military to *immediately* clean the roads with tanks, use 20 sikorky skycranes to drop generator containers there, and have the navy sent a huge ferry to provide power in the long term and unlimited amount Mar 17 09:06:57 Doc: I am not talking about NOW, I am talking about 30s-40s Mar 17 09:07:33 Doc: I mean, in 1986, they also did not marinate the news for more than a few days Mar 17 09:08:36 In comparison, for some 60-70s Soviet disasters we *still* do not have full disclosure Mar 17 09:09:21 heh... the soviets the meltdowwn kings Mar 17 09:09:45 the critically kings Mar 17 09:09:58 citicality Mar 17 09:11:16 wasn't there a whole mine to blow up with some massive H2 or even criticality event, in the 50s/60s, in east USSR? Mar 17 09:11:31 I guess I'll have to put all this on ignore if I don't want to hear about it.... getting tired of it... Mar 17 09:12:25 they put out a mine fire with a nuke Mar 17 09:13:57 RST38h: >>On 10 December 1968, Mayak (Russia),...<< http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticality_incident Mar 17 09:14:39 >> The shift supervisor then deceived the radiation control supervisor and entered the room of the incident and possibly attempted to pour the solution down a floor drain... Mar 17 09:15:54 Doc: Just one of many Mar 17 09:16:19 Doc: See? Exactly acording to the scenario I just described! Mar 17 09:16:31 * RST38h strokes his crystal balls and cackles Mar 17 09:18:09 lol poours it doowwn the drain Mar 17 09:26:58 Anyone having probs with tmo? Mar 17 09:27:20 Ah, started working again. Mar 17 09:27:44 MEH, JP minister: "extremely high radiation levels, 4mSv/h" Sissies! Mar 17 09:28:42 I doubt you'd notice *any* adverse immediate effects at 4mSv/h Mar 17 09:29:19 after 200h you probably get real problems Mar 17 09:30:01 like the liquidators in Chernobyl got after 30s Mar 17 09:34:42 alterego, i drop off tmo now and then aand haave to just reboot the thiing and all is fine Mar 17 09:35:12 though i think that is the software Mar 17 09:35:44 Neah, the browser sometimes doesn't refresh properly. Mar 17 09:35:56 jus ttyped in t.m.o again and it worked Mar 17 09:41:32 Hey can I integrate my Maemo SDK scratchbox enviroment to eclipse?(So that it just executes inside the scratchbox) Mar 17 09:43:10 And another question: Is there any qt designer that can preview directly in maemo 5 style? Mar 17 09:43:12 what is it with stupid newbie questions these days? Is Google broken or something? Mar 17 09:45:07 hahaaha Mar 17 09:46:07 crashanddie: hmm. no. I did some research. I found some answers. some where for maemo 4. I couldn't find any qt designer that does what I would like. Maybee I'm not doing enough research. But I hate to set everything up to see after it that there is an better solution... Mar 17 09:47:14 woops, wrong button Mar 17 09:51:56 flexxxv: qt creator has Mar 17 09:52:38 chem|st: thx! I tried qt designer... Mar 17 09:55:42 Education Department officials are threatening school principals with lawsuits if they fail to monitor and curb students' lunchtime chat and evening Facebook time for expressing ideas and words that are deemed to be harassment of some students. Mar 17 10:12:32 morning Mar 17 10:23:17 morning Venemo Mar 17 10:24:35 hey merlin1991 Mar 17 10:31:10 vbnmkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkm..,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,.l Mar 17 10:33:36 yes? Mar 17 10:34:03 That's what merlin1991 is called at the weekend. Mar 17 10:34:36 That was me dropping a cup - thankflly empty - on my keyboard looks like. Mar 17 10:35:21 Heh Mar 17 10:35:40 I'd imagine it'd be a lot longer and more interesting if the cup was full Mar 17 10:36:06 with intermittant "f*ck" and "b*stard coffee" Mar 17 10:36:32 A being rewired to star 2/3rds of the time? It's more likely than you think. Mar 17 10:53:22 stupid question: how should I load dependencies into qtcreator? Mar 17 10:53:58 stupid answer from google: http://doc.qt.nokia.com/qtcreator-2.1/creator-build-dependencies.html Mar 17 10:54:29 can be obtained by typing "qtcreator dependencies" into http://www.google.com/ Mar 17 10:58:14 RST38bis: that makes me feel silly Mar 17 11:01:19 So I need to load in packages like libvorbis manually? If I would build it normally under scratchbox I would do apt-get install libvorbis-dev Mar 17 11:02:01 I think I need to learn some morge basic knowledge, before trying too complex things ;) Mar 17 11:04:11 excuse me, what time is it? Mar 17 11:04:25 my phone resetted randomly, and don't have any clock near Mar 17 11:04:30 (in GMT+1) Mar 17 11:05:01 Google. Mar 17 11:05:21 Thu Mar 17 12:02:42 CET 2011 Mar 17 11:05:39 thanks Mar 17 11:05:48 http://www.calculatorcat.com/free_calculators/world_clock.phtml Mar 17 11:06:24 sry. I thought it used server time Mar 17 11:06:50 hm Mar 17 11:07:01 Hah. Mar 17 11:21:24 morning chaps Mar 17 11:22:35 * lardman wonders why qsql error messages are so unexplanatory, perhaps it's just sqlite in general Mar 17 11:30:03 morning lardman :) Mar 17 11:30:16 hi pupnik_ Mar 17 11:30:48 I really feel stupid... How can I install dependencies I need in the maemo build enviroment of qt creator? I can build for desktop with no problems. Or am I trying it the wrong way? Sry, for these noob question. Mar 17 11:32:48 04:56 <+k*****> same with the cryptic error messages - its to keep SQL ppl high paid Mar 17 11:33:31 flexxxv: what kinds are things are missing? Mar 17 11:33:31 flexxxv: i've read from someone else that the new qt creator somehow lacks the n900 build target Mar 17 11:35:15 I have the build target. But I need some libs like libvorbis, liogg... So if I compile for Desktop they are of cause installed but for maemo not. I can't figure out how to install them. Mar 17 11:36:00 flexxxv: are you using scratchbox? Or MADDE? Mar 17 11:36:41 hmm. I just installed qtcreator and selected maemo build target Mar 17 11:37:21 so probatly MADDE? Mar 17 11:37:28 God knows, I just make sure I have the right stuff installed in my desktop system Mar 17 11:37:44 though this is a little troublesome for things like Qt Mobility Mar 17 11:38:32 how can i capture my n900 screen in a video? Mar 17 11:38:34 I also have the maemo SDK with scratchbox installed, but I thought nokia qt SDK would be the better way Mar 17 11:38:48 are there any tools for that in the repo? Mar 17 11:39:06 I think you can point Qt Creator at the sb install too Mar 17 11:39:40 trx: that's certainly doable but don't have any info offhand Mar 17 11:40:01 ok, i'll look into it, thank you Mar 17 11:40:23 can be done with gstreamer directly afair, but I guess someone will have packaged it up Mar 17 11:40:58 lardman: that sounds like a nice Idea :D Mar 17 11:48:15 argh, I do so hate SQL Mar 17 11:59:26 what's wrong with this?: INSERT INTO tablelist (sqlTableName, prettyTableName) VALUES ('test', 'test'); Mar 17 12:00:01 hmm, damn, I see the problem, case issues Mar 17 12:13:07 lardman: sql is something that changes you. not sure if it's for the better Mar 17 12:13:56 :) Mar 17 12:14:27 I've no clue why adding in NOT NULL means my table fails to be generated Mar 17 12:17:08 whats the query Mar 17 12:19:11 maybe all elements are NULL Mar 17 12:23:53 nidO: http://pastebin.com/6d2N1kRS Mar 17 12:28:53 what I really want to do is create a primary key column which autoincrements Mar 17 12:29:22 but if I remove the NOT NULL bit I get a NULL value in that column, which is probably not very useful as a primary key Mar 17 12:29:37 otoh if I add it in, the table isn't created, which is even less useful ;) Mar 17 12:30:50 * lardman tries INTEGER PRIMARY KEY ASC Mar 17 12:34:01 lardman : http://pastebin.com/nXZtVFaA Mar 17 12:34:05 this works for men Mar 17 12:34:07 me* Mar 17 12:34:47 hey guys Mar 17 12:35:00 wondering about CFLAGS for N900 Mar 17 12:35:39 CFLAGS = -O2 -mcpu=cortex-a8 -mtune=cortex-a8 -fomit-frame-pointer -fsigned-char -mfpu=neon -mfloat-abi=softfp = win? Mar 17 12:37:08 thanks trx will give it a go Mar 17 12:37:48 macmaN: try and see Mar 17 12:39:29 cortex-a8? Mar 17 12:39:32 On the N900 Mar 17 12:40:54 got it from here http://forums.internettablettalk.com/showthread.php?p=466914 Mar 17 12:40:58 n8x0 was correct Mar 17 12:41:26 crashanddie: it is a cortex-a8 of coruse Mar 17 12:41:30 course Mar 17 12:41:44 I get confused with all the types of ARM there are Mar 17 12:41:53 np me too Mar 17 12:42:27 ahh so the cflags are good Mar 17 12:42:34 ok going for it Mar 17 12:43:12 macmaN: you'll need to benchmark or find someone who has done some benchmarking Mar 17 12:43:53 lardman: not a performance question actually, just trying to figure out how to create a crosscompiler Mar 17 12:44:44 oh Mar 17 12:44:53 that'll be fun ;) Mar 17 12:45:01 about to put gentoo prefix on it actually Mar 17 12:46:03 bloody sql Mar 17 12:46:07 still not working Mar 17 12:46:09 urgh Mar 17 12:52:18 lardman, what's the problem, doc? Mar 17 12:52:43 just qsql not liking my sql commands Mar 17 12:52:51 and giving crap errors Mar 17 12:52:57 and just generally being crap Mar 17 12:53:00 :) Mar 17 12:55:11 10 years ago i could have helped with the sql Mar 17 12:56:01 How does the N900 do AGPS? The N900 does not support reporting neighboring cellular towers. What is it using instead? Mar 17 12:56:24 the connected cell tower? Mar 17 12:56:42 SUPL Mar 17 12:57:03 pupnik: You can't do triangulation with one tower... Mar 17 12:57:14 the tower knows its location Mar 17 12:57:20 nor does it do triangulation afaiu Mar 17 12:58:16 The AGPS functionality consists of the N900 obtaining ephemeris and alamanac data for its current location as returned by the connected cell tower, afaiu Mar 17 12:58:32 ephemeris being the location dependent one there Mar 17 12:58:48 I see Mar 17 13:00:47 I'm actually a bit confused. Mar 17 13:01:28 The agps info is not sent via a TCP/IP connection. Mar 17 13:01:28 how so? Mar 17 13:01:39 yes it is Mar 17 13:01:54 Hmm. Mar 17 13:02:16 the N900 talks to a SUPL server somewhere, e.g. the Google one or the Nokia one, and tells it the cellid that it's connected to Mar 17 13:02:26 only the cell id? Mar 17 13:02:49 yes, afaiu, I know that SUPL can do other things, but I don't think those are used here Mar 17 13:02:52 I thought you just said it downloads the ephemeris and almanac data. Mar 17 13:03:07 yes, but the ephemeris data are location dependant Mar 17 13:03:20 so the SUPL server needs to know what to generate/send to the device Mar 17 13:03:24 And that's what it is getting from the supl server? Mar 17 13:03:30 yes Mar 17 13:04:34 there are other things that SUPL can do afair, like taking parts of the recorded GPS signal and brute forcing a location from them, but I don't think that's necessary if you have a rough location provided by the cell tower Mar 17 13:05:11 and is also significantly more computationally expensive I'd guess Mar 17 13:08:20 lardman: thanks for your help. Mar 17 13:10:23 neal: np Mar 17 13:10:36 neal: what's your interest in this anyway? Mar 17 13:11:28 I'm building a location-aware network manager Mar 17 13:11:56 fun Mar 17 13:12:04 And I'd like more information than just the currently connected tower. Mar 17 13:12:37 Unfortunately, the modem on the N900 appears to either not implement or block queries for neighboring towers. Mar 17 13:13:10 I'm trying to figure out other inexpensive (in terms of battery power) sources of location information. Mar 17 13:13:34 cool Mar 17 13:13:47 (I don't need the actual geographical location. I just need environmental features to create a fingerprint.) Mar 17 13:14:02 so you're planning wifi fingerprinting too? Mar 17 13:14:05 If you have some ideas, I'd appreciate them. Mar 17 13:14:11 wifi scanning is expensive Mar 17 13:14:17 i've always wanted to visit japan Mar 17 13:14:19 i bet you can get excellent deals for tourist packages right now Mar 17 13:14:43 pupnik: especially if you have lead underpants and/or a degree in nuclear engineering Mar 17 13:14:54 neal: I think everything will be expensive really Mar 17 13:15:17 neighboring towers are free Mar 17 13:15:22 assuming you can get them :-) Mar 17 13:15:26 neal: shame you can't get other nearby cell tower info though Mar 17 13:15:28 yeah Mar 17 13:15:51 the info must lurk in the modem somewhere, just how to get it out if possible Mar 17 13:16:07 neal: measure location of the sun, using the camera and accelerometers. compare with clock to get location. :) Mar 17 13:16:18 yes, i know the accelerometers aren't anything like accurate enough Mar 17 13:16:30 i have nuclear certification yes Mar 17 13:16:37 BCMM: if we had a digital compass that might work Mar 17 13:16:53 lardman: how is a compass the thing that makes a difference to that? Mar 17 13:17:02 One of the Nokia guys working on ofono told me "You cannot get neighbor cell info on N900. The ISI command used to fetch Mar 17 13:17:05 the info is blocked in N900.You cannot get neighbor cell info on N900. The ISI command used to fetch Mar 17 13:17:18 BCMM: direction of sun Mar 17 13:17:40 BCMM: otherwise you'd need to watch the entire day's worth to work out your latitude Mar 17 13:18:08 actually that's wrong isn't it Mar 17 13:18:28 maybe, but i can see the correct answer in my head now Mar 17 13:18:42 all you'd get from that would be the elevation of the sun Mar 17 13:18:50 the angle between "down" and the sun Mar 17 13:19:14 without knowing which direction teh sun is, that describes a circle of possible locations on the earth Mar 17 13:19:28 probably, this is based only on visualising it Mar 17 13:19:44 so yeah, you would need a compass too Mar 17 13:21:16 lardman, did you ever source a bluetooth compass? Mar 17 13:21:34 if you can wait for noon, then you know some part of the problem, but that's not a very fast update rate Mar 17 13:21:44 lcuk2: nope Mar 17 13:22:13 BCMM: basically using the n900 as a sextant Mar 17 13:22:20 lardman: yeah :) Mar 17 13:22:21 lardman, how does your phone know it is noon! Mar 17 13:22:52 sun is at highest point in the sky Mar 17 13:23:10 so it would have to watch the sun all day Mar 17 13:23:54 what if there is an eclipse? :) Mar 17 13:24:13 * lardman wonders whether he should switch this app to C++ rather than Python, is getting messy Mar 17 13:24:36 trx: well you could keep a db of eclipses for the next 100 years and use that info to locate yourself Mar 17 13:24:37 trx: u can always use MADDE :-) Mar 17 13:24:51 haha Mar 17 13:24:58 if it's messy in python, it would be drain bramage in C++ :P Mar 17 13:25:27 i think you mean... brain damage :-! Mar 17 13:26:52 lardman, pure ASM Mar 17 13:27:08 hmm, perhaps Mar 17 13:27:22 better use plain HEX Mar 17 13:27:43 ucs-4! Mar 17 13:27:55 punchcard reader on n900! Mar 17 13:27:58 no, even better Mar 17 13:27:58 well the only reason to stick with Python really is things like beautiful souop Mar 17 13:28:13 s/beautiful soup/lxml/ Mar 17 13:28:19 harder, better, faster, stronger Mar 17 13:28:24 especially faster Mar 17 13:28:36 it's the harder part that I don't like the sound of ;) Mar 17 13:28:50 and the "fix broken shit" thing is just slightly less good than beautiful soup Mar 17 13:28:56 nah, they're about the same in difficulty :) Mar 17 13:29:25 lardman: lcuk: actually, if you know the time, the length/direction of the Sun's shadow already tells you your latitude Mar 17 13:29:40 (looking down, eh ? :) ) Mar 17 13:29:51 lardman: http://blog.dispatched.ch/2010/08/16/beautifulsoup-vs-lxml-performance/ Mar 17 13:30:12 plus, BS is discontinued Mar 17 13:30:34 stylus makes a nice sundial! Mar 17 13:32:13 lcuk: lardman: though the ultimate geek-way for getting latitude would be from measuring the coriolis effect :) Mar 17 13:34:08 achipa, that is an incomplete solution though, users on non rotating planets will be unable to use it Mar 17 13:34:13 lardman: Mar 17 13:34:18 looks like paris-tokyo airplane flight subjects you to 6 microsievert per hour Mar 17 13:34:25 "city official said 0.809 of a micro-sievert was measured between 10am and 11am in Tokyo today" Mar 17 13:34:41 if that's a representative sample, the flight to tokyo is 8x more radioactive than staying in 'nuclear tokyo' Mar 17 13:36:52 lcuk: there are no non-rotating planets :) Mar 17 13:38:39 pupnik: Compared with what nominal background? Mar 17 13:38:51 * SpeedEvil hates ass-hats that don't specify units. Mar 17 13:39:30 The UK press are having great fun printing the mSv scale, all the way up to EVERYONE DIES, with a tiny zoomed in bit at the bottom saying "actually, we're here". Mar 17 13:40:52 FauxFaux: link? Not seen. Mar 17 13:41:18 Anyone got an idea why my N900 has troubles connecting to a WPA2-PSK(AES) Netgear WNR3500L (Netgear firmware) via WLAN? Mar 17 13:42:42 SpeedEvil: Apparently publishing the same thing on dead tree and on the internet is too challenging for sensationalist papers. Mar 17 13:43:02 SpeedEvil: it's rational to compare current elevated levels to other commonplace elevated levels Mar 17 13:44:24 ah. Mar 17 13:45:57 achipa: I like it :) Mar 17 13:46:38 kerio: thanks Mar 17 13:47:23 yacc, no idea, but i suggest you stick a better fw on it if it can take one. Mar 17 13:47:35 * lardman wonders whether to keep coding or just go outside as the sun is out Mar 17 13:47:41 also, i suggest switching to enterprise wpa2 Mar 17 13:47:42 keep coding! Mar 17 13:47:49 :) Mar 17 13:47:50 lardman, coding Mar 17 13:47:56 korhojoa, for my home WLAN? Mar 17 13:47:58 korhojoa: why enterprise? Mar 17 13:47:58 the sun will give you skin cancer Mar 17 13:48:00 yacc, yes Mar 17 13:48:05 kerio, security Mar 17 13:48:06 lol Mar 17 13:48:11 korhojoa, lol. Mar 17 13:48:13 :D Mar 17 13:48:23 i got it to work, so you can too. Mar 17 13:48:40 korhojoa: wpa2 enterprise is that much better than wpa2? Mar 17 13:48:41 korhojoa, if I remember right, I'm forced to run a second WEP network just for certain devices from Nintendo, ... Mar 17 13:48:58 korhojoa, how many hours did you spent on it? Mar 17 13:49:05 kerio, well, per-user auth Mar 17 13:49:29 s/certain devices/the nintendo ds/ Mar 17 13:49:40 which has a crappy online anyway Mar 17 13:49:45 korhojoa, well I've got a WPA2-PSK and a WEP WLAN for the devices that cannot do WPA or guests, ... Mar 17 13:50:14 yacc, i spent like a week on finding a working solution and then 15 minutes on setting all the devices up Mar 17 13:50:31 i can tell you the working solution, and you won't need to spend a week Mar 17 13:51:09 nintendo devices don't do wpa? Mar 17 13:51:14 that's pretty bad Mar 17 13:51:36 hmm, funny how time evaporates, I've not done half as much stuff as I'd hoped to this week Mar 17 13:51:42 korhojoa, well, I fear I would have to upgrade my firmware first, and OpenWRT does not provide images for my router :( Mar 17 13:52:19 korhojoa, as my routes seems to be missing the WPA-EAP option in it's configuration page, ... Mar 17 13:52:36 yacc, are there images for dd-wrt then? Mar 17 13:52:49 it's not perfect, but a lot better than the default ones Mar 17 13:53:13 korhojoa, I think so, but then the whole thing is a delicate balance anyway. Mar 17 13:53:23 yacc, no eap? :E Mar 17 13:53:31 that's weak Mar 17 13:53:50 even my old d-link 802.11b one did enterprise Mar 17 13:54:06 E.g. our Archos tablets are very very sensible to the WLAN configuration, ... Mar 17 13:54:24 sensible? Mar 17 13:55:16 korhojoa, well, that's a very diplomatic way to put it, I mean I spent a couple of weeks experimenting to find a setting where the tablets are reliably online, ... Mar 17 13:56:00 korhojoa, let me put it like this, something is wrong in WLAN land, when I prefered to use a BT across the flat to do PAN/DUN networking, ... Mar 17 13:56:04 over WLAN. Mar 17 14:00:38 Hello Mar 17 14:01:17 Aloha Mar 17 14:13:02 There is still some app developpers here ? Mar 17 14:16:33 no, we have all died Mar 17 14:17:34 well I wanted to go out into the sunshine but everyone told me not to, so yeah I'm still here too ;) Mar 17 14:17:51 moo lardman Mar 17 14:18:34 hey RST38h Mar 17 14:20:24 Sunshine is dangerous. Mar 17 14:20:44 derf: so I'm told :) Mar 17 14:21:00 Could get vitamin D poisoning. Mar 17 14:21:12 lol Mar 17 14:21:26 yeah, will have to steer clear of polar bear liver this evening Mar 17 14:23:37 and the bear himself, too Mar 17 14:23:46 very true Mar 17 14:24:26 maybe the polar bear just needs a hug Mar 17 14:24:53 think of all the lonely, sunburnt polar bears Mar 17 14:25:08 cartesian bear Mar 17 14:26:32 Hello everybody. Is it possible to create an application under Maemo which registers itself for received SMS ? Mar 17 14:32:59 guys Mar 17 14:33:21 Hotel officials told police the man had repeatedly called hotel employees the "anti-Christ" and "spawns of Satan." Mar 17 14:33:27 hah Mar 17 14:33:48 by default, when compiling the kernel-power with dpkg-build, is used the rx51power_defconfig configuration? Mar 17 14:34:20 lardman, you need to go into the sunshine anyway to test your new azimuth calculations! Mar 17 14:35:01 RST38h: as BB pointed out, why did he think Satan would mind a bit of fire? Mar 17 14:36:55 BCMM: By destroying His spawn, you stop Him in His tracks! Mar 17 14:38:58 lcuk: well having to go outside might make me jump in the shower at leasrt Mar 17 14:39:35 heh Mar 17 14:49:49 no one? Mar 17 14:51:06 Does Maemo application have permissions/capabilities like Android or Symbian ? Mar 17 14:51:57 vadmeste, no Mar 17 14:52:45 emm.. That's strange.. So Nokia Team verifies the behavior of applications before submitting it to the OVI store right ? Mar 17 14:52:54 s/it/them Mar 17 14:53:05 deno: look at debian/rules Mar 17 14:53:17 lardman, ok Mar 17 14:53:25 lardman, thx for the hint :) Mar 17 14:54:37 np Mar 17 14:55:00 found it: DEFCONFIG := rx51power_defconfig Mar 17 14:55:03 lardman, thx :)) Mar 17 14:55:31 good good Mar 17 15:00:59 ok, how is possible that the compilation works with dpkg-buildpackage -rfakeroot -uc -us -sa without copying that configuration into the /arch/arm/config Mar 17 15:01:04 it's not normal o.= Mar 17 15:01:07 o.O Mar 17 15:04:42 does the makefile read it directly from the debian dir? Mar 17 15:06:51 bbiab Mar 17 15:24:11 any qt gods here to help me? I'm trying to store an opengl extension method in a function pointer to user it later using http://doc.qt.nokia.com/stable/qglcontext.html#getProcAddress but I can't get the cast right so I can use it (or I define my function pointer wrongly I don't know) Mar 17 15:25:46 merlin1991, what language? Mar 17 15:25:52 c++ Mar 17 15:26:34 hm he left :P Mar 17 15:27:03 merlin1991, can you show your code, and actual errors? Mar 17 15:28:50 well I tried all sorts of stuff and always get compile time errors, but the main point is, that I'm using this function http://doc.qt.nokia.com/stable/qglcontext.html#getProcAddress wich returns void* and I need to cast that so I can use the return as function pointer Mar 17 15:29:34 and we're not going to be able to help you unless you give us some specific examples that will allow us to deduce what kind of cast you need Mar 17 15:32:10 I need to cast that to pretty much any type of function pointer since depending on what string I feed it I get back another opengl function (yay for the awesome windows opengl system) Mar 17 15:32:12 merlin1991, what is the function prototype that the pointer should represent? Mar 17 15:32:39 the very first one I need would be void (GLsizei n, GLuint *renderbuffers) Mar 17 15:32:45 for example, you could have glCreateProgram = (PFNGLCREATEPROGRAMPROC)cont->getProcAddress("glCreateProgram"); Mar 17 15:33:09 where cont is a QGLContext * Mar 17 15:35:11 yeah I found lots of examples like that, but sadly the glext header for windows is missing most of the typedefs like PFNGLCREATEPROGRAMPROC Mar 17 15:35:26 get an OS that works then. Mar 17 15:35:30 :D Mar 17 15:35:35 I'd love todo that :P Mar 17 15:36:07 so I need to know I have to put in the ( ) to create for example the pointer to the function with the signature (GLsizei n, GLuint *renderbuffers) Mar 17 15:37:19 (so I can either write the ypedefs myself or copy paste stuff) Mar 17 15:38:34 merlin1991, yeah Mar 17 15:38:41 typedef int (*FUNCX)(int a,int b); Mar 17 15:38:41 FUNCX myfunc = NULL; Mar 17 15:38:41 myfunc = (FUNCX)getProcAddress("glCreateProgram"); Mar 17 15:38:41 printf("tada %i",myfunc(1,2)); Mar 17 15:39:05 thanks lcuk :) Mar 17 16:01:25 i have a free closed source .so that i want to use with my free open source app Mar 17 16:01:44 how should i distribute the .so Mar 17 16:02:00 with my app's .deb or? Mar 17 16:02:49 What does the license of the closed source .so say about redistribution? Mar 17 16:04:13 basicaly just free for non-commercial use Mar 17 16:04:30 i was asking about the .deb side Mar 17 16:05:00 am i allowed to send my app to the repo which includes a .so Mar 17 16:05:18 in the non-free repo, probably Mar 17 16:06:07 why not the free repo? its a free lib.. Mar 17 16:06:19 it has nothing to do with the cost Mar 17 16:06:19 where could find out more about that? Mar 17 16:06:20 Depends on the definition of free Mar 17 16:06:21 it's the licence Mar 17 16:10:51 so what should do then, ask the author of the .so if he allows it or what? Mar 17 16:11:02 should i do* Mar 17 16:11:09 erhm, that has nothing to do with it Mar 17 16:11:21 first of all, you need to include the licence of the binary with it Mar 17 16:15:58 meh, its too much trouble then Mar 17 16:16:12 i wanted to create a "guitar amp" app Mar 17 16:16:22 guess its not going to happen :) Mar 17 16:18:12 inz: free as in freedom Mar 17 16:18:30 inz: you can pack that so into .deb and upload it to non-free repo Mar 17 16:18:47 inz: and create your app and upload it to free repo with dependencies for that non-free app Mar 17 16:18:50 .so* Mar 17 16:19:13 jacekowski, you probably meant trx (at least apart from the first line) Mar 17 16:21:39 hmm Mar 17 16:21:40 yeah Mar 17 16:22:25 i guess ill have to ask for a permission to upload the lib there Mar 17 16:23:12 i used it on Win 100 times, and i just supply the lib with my app Mar 17 16:23:15 trx: where from you got the n900-armel .so? Mar 17 16:23:47 damn Mar 17 16:23:51 i'm an idiot Mar 17 16:24:00 thought so ;-D Mar 17 16:24:01 :) Mar 17 16:24:05 the lib isnt compiled for arm :( Mar 17 16:24:07 haha Mar 17 16:24:07 jacekowski: A while ago you said it was possible to get the neighboring cells but you didn't say how (http://mg.pov.lt/maemo-irclog/%23maemo.2010-07-21.log.html). Can you tell me? Mar 17 16:24:19 DocScrutinizer thanks :) Mar 17 16:24:25 nnp Mar 17 16:25:24 neal: read next line Mar 17 16:25:47 I did and I don't know how. Mar 17 16:25:55 That's what I'd like to know. Mar 17 16:26:42 A nokia engineer told me that isi command is blocked on the n900. Mar 17 16:27:35 jacekowski: Have you managed to get the information? Mar 17 16:27:51 no Mar 17 16:28:03 but these commands are not blocked Mar 17 16:28:09 just there is no headers for libs Mar 17 16:28:12 which commands? Mar 17 16:28:22 all of them Mar 17 16:28:29 there is no headers and no docs Mar 17 16:28:31 that's all Mar 17 16:28:39 interesting Mar 17 16:28:43 how do you know that? Mar 17 16:28:44 hmmm Mar 17 16:28:50 neal: because i know Mar 17 16:29:01 very cool video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VMiMGOg53Ec 7 years of gstreamer community development visualized Mar 17 16:29:22 neal: I asked for the needed support in isi like one year ago. Back when tekojo said he'll try to help, and asked some Nokian here to report back directly to us about what's state of the issue. Nothing ever happened then Mar 17 16:29:28 jacekowski: There is a recent patch to ofono to enable getting the neighbor info. Mar 17 16:29:43 http://www.mail-archive.com/ofono@ofono.org/msg09177.html Mar 17 16:29:46 neal: yeah, but ofono isn't compatible with n900 Mar 17 16:29:51 neal: n900 userland Mar 17 16:30:04 you can use ofono but that would break lot of things already there Mar 17 16:30:05 the isi driver works on the n900 Mar 17 16:30:09 hardware Mar 17 16:30:14 and this is a hardware problem Mar 17 16:30:14 yes Mar 17 16:30:19 no Mar 17 16:30:26 you can run maemo on n900 and get all info Mar 17 16:30:29 meego* Mar 17 16:30:41 on maemo you have closed userland that makes things hard Mar 17 16:30:44 except for the cells_req, which according to the nokia engineer is blocked Mar 17 16:31:18 what's cell_req? Mar 17 16:31:18 I'm willing to access it via an AF_PHONET socket Mar 17 16:31:48 NET_NEIGHBOUR_CELLS_REQ Mar 17 16:32:04 neal: no, there isn't. Mar 17 16:32:04 it's 0x1A Mar 17 16:32:15 that message will get you the neighbor cells Mar 17 16:32:19 neal: That's a patch - as I understand it - to enable ofono to support neighbour cells. Mar 17 16:32:29 neal: It is _not_ a driver for the low-level modem. Mar 17 16:32:41 If this was a message of a couple of months ago Mar 17 16:32:53 SpeedEvil: That's from March 7 Mar 17 16:33:05 so, 10 days ago Mar 17 16:33:06 Not loading here. Mar 17 16:33:10 Is it low-level? Mar 17 16:33:18 I.E. talking directly to the modem? Mar 17 16:33:25 Not just adding an ofono API? Mar 17 16:33:26 it uses the linux AF_PHONET socket API Mar 17 16:34:53 jacekowski: The Nokia engineer said: "You cannot get neighbor cell info on N900. The ISI command used to fetch the info is blocked in N900." Mar 17 16:35:05 jacekowski: Are you saying this is a firmware problem? Mar 17 16:35:20 jacekowski: Or what's the issue? Mar 17 16:35:34 The modem firmware has to support it. Mar 17 16:35:45 If the modem firmware does not support it, you're screwed. Mar 17 16:36:22 SpeedEvil: jacekowski is convinced that it works on the N900 Mar 17 16:37:40 It's not loading for me, I don't know why. Mar 17 16:37:53 I hope jacekowski is right, but I don't have any reason to believe that he is. Mar 17 16:38:02 (I don't have any reason to believe the other too) Mar 17 16:39:53 neal: jacekowski knows a friggin lot about what BB5 celmo firmware is doing. I'd tend to believe what he says, though I'd appreciate he'd elaborate Mar 17 16:41:43 and for the Nokia statements: they also said "N900 *CAN NOT DO* usb-otg" and damn, they were right, and they never explicitly stated N900 can not do hostmode Mar 17 16:42:35 though they always phrased their answers in a way you'd think they meant exactly that, so I dunno if they know very exactly or not at all what they say Mar 17 16:44:49 neal: "the ISI cmd is blocked..." might mean it's not implemented in the isi lib that's talking to cellmo Mar 17 16:46:43 the last info from tekojo regarding this was along the line "I asked MrXY of Nokia-cmt and he said they could consider to implement it into some library" Mar 17 16:46:53 IIRC Mar 17 16:50:28 DocScrutinizer: Good point. Mar 17 16:50:43 DocScrutinizer: I'll continue trying. Thanks for your help. Mar 17 16:50:58 DocScrutinizer: Also, I wasn't doubting jacekowski, I just want him to elaborate as well Mar 17 16:51:21 * SpeedEvil pokes jacekowski with a tomato. Mar 17 16:52:29 so, if anyone ever plans to write an application Mar 17 16:52:29 neal: so please stay with us and share all your steps taken and findings. I'm sure there are more than just me wo'd love to contribute and help, and also want to see servicemode working on BB5/maemo-N900 Mar 17 16:52:57 and provides an action which takes a long time to complete Mar 17 16:53:08 * DocScrutinizer pokes jacekowski with a sharp stick Mar 17 16:53:35 Sorry to jump late into the conversation, but what *is* neighbour cell whateveritwas you were talking about? Mar 17 16:53:41 * SpeedEvil pokes timeless_xchat, and waits for the next sentance. Mar 17 16:53:55 please don't provide a big hit region which enables the user to quickly dimiss the dialog and lose the work Mar 17 16:54:02 dashavoo: the cell is the 'router' your phone is connected to. Mar 17 16:54:17 * timeless_xchat eyes HAM's restore feature Mar 17 16:54:22 dashavoo: Neighbouring cells are ones it can 'see' - but is not connected to. Mar 17 16:54:27 dashavoo: i don't really know what they're talking about either, but a GSM phone knows which other cells are in range and is ready to switch over if they get stronger than the one it's using Mar 17 16:55:01 (it knows which frequencies to check because the cell in use tells it how to find the neighbours) Mar 17 16:55:05 рун пгны Mar 17 16:55:07 SpeedEvil, BCMM, thanks, I think I can put it all in context now :) Mar 17 16:55:09 hey guys Mar 17 16:55:13 dashavoo: Knowing the neiighbouring cell - and more information about them as is also available - such as timing information - can enable you do do rapid positioning 'free' - and with zero additional power usage. Mar 17 16:55:14 happy patricks Mar 17 16:55:29 Sure - the positioning may only be to within a few tens of meters, but that may be fine. Mar 17 16:55:35 SpeedEvil: ooh, nice, I can see why that would be good Mar 17 16:56:28 ok, as being as everyone seems to be around at the moment, and I'm off home in a minute anyway... I noticed that the power kernel supports mesh networking, does anything actually use it? Mar 17 16:57:00 The OLPC can. Mar 17 16:57:07 I don't know how much that's used though. Mar 17 16:58:10 I considered writing an app that does mesh via BT/WLAN for areas where authorities like to switch down internet every now and then Mar 17 16:58:39 DocScrutinizer: that would be cool Mar 17 16:59:07 of course it would need several other properties, like signature and loose routing and authentication and whatnot, to be really useful Mar 17 16:59:10 Somebody told me something about an android application that uses mesh networking for that type of situation, which is what piqued my interest in it Mar 17 16:59:59 OK, home time :) Mar 17 16:59:59 o.O damn, I didn't know they beaten me once more. MEH! Mar 17 17:00:06 DocScrutinizer: aww Mar 17 17:00:32 DocScrutinizer: if you could get it to co-operate, that would be even better ;) Mar 17 17:00:43 Sister for sale! Sister for sale! One crying and spying young sister for sale! Mar 17 17:00:54 speedevil, where you going to ask me something? Mar 17 17:00:56 bye for now Mar 17 17:01:09 dashavoo: if only we could have up-to-date kernels... version 2.6.33 includes the B.A.T.M.A.N. protocol Mar 17 17:01:10 now that should be BORING simple, if that project is worth it I.E. it's FOSS Mar 17 17:02:21 timeless_xchat: I was referring to the time delay between you posting '(04:49:15 PM) timeless_xchat: and provides an action which takes a long time to complete' - and the next line. :) Mar 17 17:02:40 ah :) Mar 17 17:03:00 BCMM: ever tried to backport recent kernels? Mar 17 17:03:14 i'm in a small room in a session, and slowly typing (blindly) while listening Mar 17 17:03:19 DocScrutinizer: no, why? Mar 17 17:03:19 :) Mar 17 17:03:20 shouldn't be TOO much that isn't backward compatible Mar 17 17:03:31 DocScrutinizer: i wasn't saying "somebody ought to have done it" Mar 17 17:03:55 I'm saying you ought to have tried it ;-D Mar 17 17:03:58 (well, apart from it would be cool if nokia was mantaining its drivers, which is of course ridiculous) Mar 17 17:04:02 DocScrutinizer: why, what's it like? Mar 17 17:04:58 dunno, I guess you need a few old libs and cling to a few old /sys pathnames Mar 17 17:05:32 can't see any major subsystem getting binned on 2.6.3x Mar 17 17:05:35 DocScrutinizer: oh, i thought you were claiming experience and suggesting i wouldn't say such things if i knew what it was like or something Mar 17 17:06:03 nah, I'm honestly suggesting you start such a project. Much appreciated Mar 17 17:06:22 yeah, it would be pretty cool. .33 has some patches that should improve responsiveness on almost any system under heavy load Mar 17 17:06:31 unfortunately i am nothing like a kernel hacker Mar 17 17:06:35 you might want to ask the SHR dudes on #openmoko-cdevel about what they got so far Mar 17 17:07:15 DocScrutinizer: i don't really know what the barriers are - the kernel claims to be untainted, so i guess there aren't any binary drivers compiled against a specific version Mar 17 17:07:38 aiui they are experimenting with 2.6.36/7 (??) but not for N900 so far Mar 17 17:07:39 DocScrutinizer: is the only serious issue that there is closed userspace that expects sysfs stuff to be in specific locations? Mar 17 17:08:04 yes, I think so Mar 17 17:08:10 what i said 33 i didn't mean 33 Mar 17 17:08:38 MeeGo uses .37 Mar 17 17:08:43 (on the N900) Mar 17 17:08:54 DocScrutinizer: is there any chance of simply modifying the binaries to adjust the sysfs paths? Mar 17 17:08:58 grr, i can't install bluemaemo because of a conflict over libeina0 Mar 17 17:09:02 or are the new paths longer? Mar 17 17:09:12 yes, i know that would be a licensing can of worms Mar 17 17:09:17 BCMM: a nice idea, I'll ponder about it Mar 17 17:09:38 longer is an understatement Mar 17 17:09:43 but a binary patch could be applies on teh device Mar 17 17:09:46 ah Mar 17 17:09:59 I wouldn't worry about bme or mce Mar 17 17:10:11 MohammadAG: the new sysfs paths are much longer? Mar 17 17:10:27 and more confusing, at least to me Mar 17 17:10:38 I felt lost in sysfs, unlike on 2.6.28 Mar 17 17:10:39 i guess that would pretty much prohibit modifying string literals in the binaries? Mar 17 17:10:57 MohammadAG: so which important stuff moved? Mar 17 17:11:01 depends, which binaries? Mar 17 17:11:13 all paths changed, in one way or another Mar 17 17:11:16 MohammadAG 2.6.28 is so ooold Mar 17 17:11:20 it's os yesterday Mar 17 17:11:25 ZogG, less confusing though Mar 17 17:11:26 MohammadAG: dunno; whichever the ones with hardcoded sysfs stuff are Mar 17 17:11:34 2.6.38 is shit, at least on my laptop Mar 17 17:11:40 MohammadAG what aer you trying to do? Mar 17 17:11:46 MohammadAG: in which respects? Mar 17 17:11:48 nothing Mar 17 17:11:56 MohammadAG i have 38 now Mar 17 17:12:00 it can't resume from standby Mar 17 17:12:02 and 37 on laptop Mar 17 17:12:04 or from hibernate Mar 17 17:12:08 MohammadAG: "I wouldn't worry about bme or mce" in what way? Mar 17 17:12:19 MohammadAG, you have it on laptop Mar 17 17:12:20 BCMM, they were updated for MeeGo Mar 17 17:12:26 and didn't bother to set it up =) Mar 17 17:12:34 yes, I have it on my laptop Mar 17 17:12:42 I went back to .35, a bit more stable Mar 17 17:12:57 MohammadAG: using tuxonice/suspend2 patches? Mar 17 17:12:59 oh and only one core is visible on .38 Mar 17 17:13:11 MohammadAG, are you using stable or unstable? Mar 17 17:13:13 it's an i5 ffs... Mar 17 17:13:21 ZogG, natty kernel Mar 17 17:13:37 MohammadAG you have i5 ? Mar 17 17:13:43 2 i5s Mar 17 17:13:53 a desktop and a laptop Mar 17 17:13:56 damn you Mar 17 17:14:02 bought the laptop from jordan, 2000NIS Mar 17 17:14:11 what laptop? Mar 17 17:14:12 it cost 7000 here when I bought it Mar 17 17:14:21 HP dv6-2152ee Mar 17 17:14:29 MohammadAG, maybe you buy me one? Mar 17 17:14:30 basically, Israel's prices suck Mar 17 17:14:44 I'm not going to jordan anytime soon :P Mar 17 17:15:01 * RST38h is getting a distinct feeling that .IL sucks badly Mar 17 17:15:36 heh Mar 17 17:15:45 MohammadAG: just saying, AFAIK tuxonice is still at .38, so your hibernation will indeed suck Mar 17 17:15:52 MohammadAG, talk to me when you do Mar 17 17:15:53 i mean, still at .37 Mar 17 17:16:15 so either you're using vanilla suspend, which sucks, or you're using an experimental tuxonice patch Mar 17 17:16:45 BCMM, do you use gentoo-sources? Mar 17 17:17:00 ZogG: sys-kernel/tuxonice-sources Mar 17 17:17:11 BCMM, just for hibirnate? Mar 17 17:17:14 ZogG: which has the gentoo-sources +tuxonice Mar 17 17:17:24 BCMM, seriosly? Mar 17 17:17:26 ZogG: hibernation is the only difference between that and gentoo-sources Mar 17 17:17:32 i may switch Mar 17 17:17:39 on laptop Mar 17 17:17:44 ZogG: which bit provokes incredulity? Mar 17 17:17:59 ZogG: the only downside is that it lags slightly behind vanilla Mar 17 17:18:19 any right now, it lags behind gentoo- a little too Mar 17 17:18:35 ZogG: gentoo and vanilla are both at .38, tuxonice is at .37 cause of upstream Mar 17 17:18:56 ZogG: eix sys-kernel/tuxonice-sources, it's right there in the description Mar 17 17:19:01 "TuxOnIce + Gentoo patchset sources" Mar 17 17:19:14 i don't mind on 37 on laptop Mar 17 17:19:25 it doesn't lag too far anyway Mar 17 17:19:43 BCMM, why don't they include it in vanilla? Mar 17 17:19:54 ZogG: politics... Mar 17 17:20:08 ZogG: iirc, they want to be in the kernel.org kernel Mar 17 17:20:17 ZogG: but somebody doesn't agree with how their doing thigns Mar 17 17:20:27 wants to move more stuff to userspace, i think Mar 17 17:20:36 ^they're doing things Mar 17 17:21:20 i don't think there's any disagreement that it beats the existing suspend support; it's just that somebody is working on a supposedly superiour replacement Mar 17 17:22:57 ZogG: the alternative, more user-space-ish, suspend implementation is uswsusp Mar 17 17:23:19 but it's the only thing that works Mar 17 17:23:35 I wish the N900 had suspend to RAM Mar 17 17:23:57 I don't mind DocScrutinizer's battery swap method, but it needs a wall charger, and a wall Mar 17 17:24:07 does it? Mar 17 17:24:09 ZogG: what is? tuxonice? Mar 17 17:24:20 yes Mar 17 17:24:36 a better way to suspend/resume apps would be great Mar 17 17:24:39 ZogG: yeah, it works much better than anything else right now Mar 17 17:24:40 MohammadAG, what about air charger and air Mar 17 17:24:46 hum Mar 17 17:24:58 BCMM, i hate politics Mar 17 17:25:00 ZogG, not much air in the atmosphere Mar 17 17:25:02 ZogG: imho, the objections to it are too philosophical Mar 17 17:25:03 people are tarded Mar 17 17:25:10 pragmatically, it wins Mar 17 17:25:28 MohammadAG: N900 has s2ram, SpeedEvil tested it, and I don't see how that helps. And my hotswap works with external battery packs as well Mar 17 17:25:29 dunno why this is a problem, because from where i'm standing, that's what Linux itself is Mar 17 17:25:30 who is against it should do better than Mar 17 17:25:41 a decent balence between doing it right and actually doing it Mar 17 17:25:52 (compare with Hurd) Mar 17 17:26:20 DocScrutinizer, suspend, swap battery, resume Mar 17 17:26:36 basically, I don't want to reload whatever i had opened Mar 17 17:26:39 won't work, RAM as well needs power Mar 17 17:26:41 BCMM, i heard that if you want to maintaince somethign to kernel you need to use k&r book syntaxes (the book you told me about) Mar 17 17:26:54 it works fine with my laptop Mar 17 17:27:05 MohammadAG, why do we need suspend on n900? Mar 17 17:27:08 ZogG: yeah, i think that was one of the things Reiser fought with the kernel team over Mar 17 17:27:08 hmm, wtf am I saying Mar 17 17:27:11 suspend to disk* Mar 17 17:27:14 my bad Mar 17 17:27:18 MEH Mar 17 17:27:25 BCMM, he is in jail now Mar 17 17:27:35 ZogG: i know Mar 17 17:27:44 he i bloody killer Mar 17 17:27:48 DocScrutinizer, but wait, it has suspend to ram? Mar 17 17:27:48 is* Mar 17 17:28:27 yes Mar 17 17:28:30 what package does the deb command come from? Mar 17 17:28:35 how does that work? Mar 17 17:28:35 ask SpeedEvil Mar 17 17:28:42 deb command? Mar 17 17:28:51 ZogG: i think i was incorrect, formatting standards wasn't the complaint about reiserfs4 Mar 17 17:28:53 there's no deb command Mar 17 17:29:12 BCMM, i think maintaince was Mar 17 17:29:16 ZogG: it seems a bit petty, but it's actually kinda reasonable to have a project like that use similar conventions througout Mar 17 17:29:19 echo foo >/sys/bar Mar 17 17:29:20 as he was only one or something like that Mar 17 17:29:25 especially where it doesn't actually effect anything Mar 17 17:29:31 deb http://repository.maemo.org/ fremantle/sdk free Mar 17 17:29:31 and if he would stop there were noone to continue Mar 17 17:29:37 oh that goes directly into sources.list Mar 17 17:29:41 my bad Mar 17 17:29:49 MohammadAG: ^^^ Mar 17 17:29:54 hmm Mar 17 17:29:58 ZogG: nah, he had/has a company Mar 17 17:30:07 does he? Mar 17 17:30:11 didn't know about that Mar 17 17:30:18 ZogG: they're still trying to get reiser4 in the kernel Mar 17 17:30:22 company opensource or what? Mar 17 17:30:46 MohammadAG: what was that about "not worrying" about mce/bme? Mar 17 17:30:48 BCMM, but they worked on it years and it still not even stable Mar 17 17:30:53 though people using it Mar 17 17:31:23 ZogG: yeah, the politics sucks a bit, but occasionally good stuff comes of it Mar 17 17:31:41 ZogG: after all, Xorg is a political fork... Mar 17 17:31:45 BCMM, they were updated for MeeGo, you don't need to change paths Mar 17 17:31:56 MohammadAG: and meego versions can be used in maemo? Mar 17 17:31:58 BCMM, fork of Xfree? Mar 17 17:32:16 if you backport 2.6.37, sure Mar 17 17:32:25 why don't we use meego's kernel? Mar 17 17:32:35 MohammadAG: define "backport". what modifications would be needed? Mar 17 17:32:39 too much shit breaks Mar 17 17:32:43 is there any specific maemo releated in kernel in maemo that we don't have in meego? Mar 17 17:32:48 BCMM, a lot, it's not easy Mar 17 17:33:28 what *exactly*? Mar 17 17:33:28 MohammadAG: why would modifications be needed? hardware-specific patches that would need to be modified? Mar 17 17:34:12 i don't get that too Mar 17 17:34:17 it's only kernel Mar 17 17:34:19 ZogG: yeah, XFree86 was developed in a not-very-public way, open but basically controlled by a small group of people Mar 17 17:34:29 the kernel isn't a big problem Mar 17 17:34:31 maemo is Mar 17 17:34:32 and there should be no software releated things Mar 17 17:34:39 so hardware si the same Mar 17 17:34:44 telephony functions will most likely break Mar 17 17:35:04 that retarded battery applet might break too Mar 17 17:35:05 BCMM, i like the revolution of ffmpeg team Mar 17 17:35:05 ZogG: the decision to change the license was the best thing to happen to X11 in ages, since the resulting fork ended up being developed much more actively Mar 17 17:35:23 MohammadAG, are those thing built in? Mar 17 17:35:32 MohammadAG: why would they break? Mar 17 17:35:33 define built in Mar 17 17:35:45 cause they listen to hal, which is deprecated Mar 17 17:35:51 MohammadAG: do you mean that the telephony driver wouldn't work on a modern kernel? Mar 17 17:35:58 ah, hal... Mar 17 17:36:03 MohammadAG: it's deprecated, not gone Mar 17 17:36:06 BCMM, i like forks and branching but i like good stuff being merged to master branch Mar 17 17:36:10 telephony app will break Mar 17 17:36:15 MeeGo uses ofono Mar 17 17:36:24 and not that you have 5 branches and everyoe has things you want and you can't combine Mar 17 17:36:24 MohammadAG: i use hal on a 2.6.37 kernel on my desktop Mar 17 17:36:33 (because i'm on an old version of KDE) Mar 17 17:36:34 MohammadAG, and maemo? Mar 17 17:36:41 MohammadAG: it will break why? Mar 17 17:36:46 BCMM, hal? Mar 17 17:36:47 BCMM, I'm not sure if bme has hal on MeeGo Mar 17 17:36:50 are you fucking srs? Mar 17 17:36:55 uses hal* Mar 17 17:37:09 hal had a good run Mar 17 17:37:43 at the end as it was working god with X finally it got deleted =) Mar 17 17:37:45 damn Mar 17 17:37:57 I need to figure out gstreamer... Mar 17 17:38:00 ZogG: iirc, kde 4.6 is the first KDE release that doesn't use HAL Mar 17 17:38:12 i'm still on 4.5 Mar 17 17:38:16 BCMM, you have flags =) Mar 17 17:38:26 USE=-hal =) Mar 17 17:38:40 basically, how to use gstreamer widgets in Qt Mar 17 17:38:41 it isn't compulsory, but it is required for GUI mounting/unmounting of removable media Mar 17 17:38:44 though i waited a lot for xfce4 to use udev insted of hal Mar 17 17:38:54 it wa or hal or mount manually =) Mar 17 17:39:00 like i said, they modifed Solid in 4.6 to not use HAL Mar 17 17:39:19 almost everyone did Mar 17 17:39:27 they use udev Mar 17 17:39:41 anyway, deprecated doesn't mean it doesn't work any more, so i still don't understand why telephony should break Mar 17 17:39:57 but latest X and hal were fine with autodetection my xorg.conf was empty, everything out of box Mar 17 17:40:08 "HAL is in maintenance mode - no new features are added." - it's not even unmaintained Mar 17 17:40:22 as a neat side effectof dropping hal, the ability of setting a keyboard layout vanished yet again Mar 17 17:41:03 BCMM, as i understood maemo uses something that is not in meego kernel or changed with something and unleast you have source of dialing and other apps that are built in you can't fix them and you can't replace the Mar 17 17:41:25 APTX, not true Mar 17 17:41:42 APTX, i don't have hal and i manage good with keyboard setting even with no DE Mar 17 17:42:23 ZogG: lucky you Mar 17 17:42:46 $ wgetpaste /etc/X11/xorg.conf.d/10-keyboard.conf Mar 17 17:42:47 Your paste can be seen here: http://paste.pocoo.org/show/355171/ Mar 17 17:42:53 APTX, ^ Mar 17 17:42:59 its really simple Mar 17 17:43:05 ZogG: tried that, didn't work Mar 17 17:43:15 it was really simple before hal Mar 17 17:43:37 APTX cat /etc/X11/xorg.conf Mar 17 17:44:00 APTX what os? do you have evdev? Mar 17 17:44:17 not on linux now anyway Mar 17 17:44:19 x11-drivers/xf86-input-evdev Mar 17 17:44:24 DocScrutinizer, ping Mar 17 17:44:33 hey ZogG, how's your app? :) Mar 17 17:44:36 just too painful Mar 17 17:44:46 x11-drivers/xf86-input-keyboard Mar 17 17:44:50 that's all you need Mar 17 17:44:56 Venemo, didn't have time Mar 17 17:45:00 ZogG, :( Mar 17 17:45:03 Venemo, just played with label Mar 17 17:45:16 mhm Mar 17 17:45:22 going to add album art soon Mar 17 17:45:29 and playtime scrll Mar 17 17:45:31 ok Mar 17 17:45:55 is it possible to have python-2.6 on N900 right now? Mar 17 17:46:13 macmaN, which one we have? Mar 17 17:46:25 isn't it there be default? Mar 17 17:46:32 can be an isolated instance, dont need to make it system wide Mar 17 17:46:36 2.5.4 Mar 17 17:46:43 i am not aware of any package that gives this Mar 17 17:46:52 macmaN, do you have extras? Mar 17 17:48:34 yes Mar 17 17:48:53 apt-cache search 2.6 has nothing Mar 17 17:49:35 2.7, Mar 17 17:50:36 ? are you saying 2.7 is supposed to be there? Mar 17 17:50:41 macmaN meego has 2.6 Mar 17 17:50:41 im not seeig it Mar 17 17:51:27 mkay Mar 17 17:51:36 so basically have to compile my own instance if i want it, it seems Mar 17 17:53:59 RST38h, lol impad2, have you heard it? Mar 17 17:54:08 about? Mar 17 18:11:24 i'm back Mar 17 18:13:30 DocScrutinizer: i was playing with it couple months ago to get that data out of n900 but lack of libisi headers and amount of RE work required to get them all and understand how it's done sort of delayed that project beyond any reasonable date Mar 17 18:13:52 DocScrutinizer: but it looks like you may get that data with just at interface Mar 17 18:14:39 err just AT interface? Mar 17 18:15:55 it doesn't look like you can get all full nice data for all frequencies Mar 17 18:16:25 it looks more like data for alternative cells to roam to Mar 17 18:16:33 What do you mean by that? Can you extract the list of neighbouring cells, or not? Mar 17 18:16:34 ah Mar 17 18:16:41 DocScrutinizer51, I'm sure you'll know something about this Mar 17 18:16:46 That's all anyone was expecting I think. Mar 17 18:16:52 Well - hoping for. Mar 17 18:17:08 DocScrutinizer51, on the N900, what's the performance difference between fixed and floating point calculations? Mar 17 18:17:20 Venemo: huge Mar 17 18:17:30 Venemo: floating point on maemo is all emulated Mar 17 18:17:44 jacekowski, I know, but how much is "huge" in numbers? Mar 17 18:18:31 magnitudes Mar 17 18:18:48 huh! Mar 17 18:19:09 so if I use fixed-point calculations, then my stuff will run more than 10× faster? Mar 17 18:19:24 assuming that calculations are your main thing Mar 17 18:19:31 but then even more than 10x Mar 17 18:19:38 i would say more like 100x Mar 17 18:19:43 if it's all just divisions and muls then yes Mar 17 18:19:55 well, Qt Graphics View uses lots of fp calculations Mar 17 18:20:11 If you can use NEON, things may change. Mar 17 18:20:23 Also - 100 may be pessimistic Mar 17 18:20:28 10 is probably optimistic though Mar 17 18:20:29 "Graphics View is built with the assumption that the user's hardware is able to provide reasonable performance for floating point instructions" Mar 17 18:20:35 I gathered meego heads for hfp though Mar 17 18:20:49 Venemo: there are some numbers here Mar 17 18:20:49 even a 2x increase would be nice :) Mar 17 18:20:54 Venemo: on real code http://people.debian.org/~zumbi/talks/fosdem2011-arm/ Mar 17 18:21:04 Venemo: that does a lot of math but a lot of other processing Mar 17 18:21:10 Venemo: and it gets like 2x faster Mar 17 18:21:18 16 minutes vs 7 minutes Mar 17 18:21:24 which is what you *always* will get (2*) Mar 17 18:21:31 mhm Mar 17 18:21:50 so I was thinking of copying the QGV sources and replacing floats with fixed points Mar 17 18:21:58 easily Mar 17 18:23:35 I don't think that I'll use any precision, since the end results of the calculations are mapped to a screen whose size has an integer number of pixels Mar 17 18:23:38 alsa dmix is using int32, afaik PA originally used all reals Mar 17 18:24:02 iirc there was talk about mixing in kernel Mar 17 18:24:13 but there was no way to do it nicely without floats Mar 17 18:24:22 and you can't do floats in kernel Mar 17 18:24:52 which is why we ended up with shit like PA Mar 17 18:24:58 mixing doesn't need floats Mar 17 18:24:59 http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/2011/mar/17/us-spy-operation-social-networks "The US military is developing software that will let it secretly manipulate social media sites such as Facebook and Twitter by using fake online personas to influence internet conversations and spread pro-American propaganda." Mar 17 18:25:04 lolol Mar 17 18:25:54 ok, now whom to ban? :-P Mar 17 18:25:59 jacekowski, why are fixed points not enough for it? and why can't you use floats in the kernel? Mar 17 18:26:23 Venemo: i don't remember Mar 17 18:26:38 Venemo: it was just one post on one of kernel related mailing lists Mar 17 18:26:53 Venemo: and you can't use floats in kernel for performance reasons Mar 17 18:27:08 Venemo: context switches out of kernel/to kernel would take much longer Mar 17 18:27:15 Venemo: if it would have to save fpu stack Mar 17 18:27:22 Venemo: which is huge Mar 17 18:27:32 mhm Mar 17 18:28:23 you really don't need nor want floats for audio processing generally Mar 17 18:28:47 jacekowski, I read your link. it talks about softfp vs. hardfp (and 40% difference which is real nice), but it doesn't talk about fixed points :) Mar 17 18:29:22 Venemo: well, on maemo you only have softfp ( or just soft, i'm not sure ) Mar 17 18:29:32 jacekowski, sure Mar 17 18:29:45 Venemo: and fixed points are done natively therefore would achieve performance of hardfp at least Mar 17 18:29:46 jacekowski, this is why I want to know how much I would gain by using fixed-point calculation Mar 17 18:30:04 jacekowski, fixed-points are calculated as integers as far as the CPU is concerned Mar 17 18:30:14 yes Mar 17 18:30:27 that's why i'm saying fixed points are done natively Mar 17 18:30:31 yes Mar 17 18:30:46 therefore no need to emulate anything Mar 17 18:30:50 and it's usually reasonable to say that integer arithmetics is usually a lot faster than floating point. Mar 17 18:30:51 like with softfloats Mar 17 18:31:08 so fixed point should be even faster than hardfp Mar 17 18:31:19 vfp on arms is quite fast Mar 17 18:31:43 mhm Mar 17 18:31:48 but well, fixed will be faster Mar 17 18:33:30 VFP on ARMs is _terrible_. Mar 17 18:37:47 For example, Tremor is more than 3.3 times faster than libvorbis on an N900 (despite doing more arithmetic: it's somewhat slower on desktop-class hardware). Mar 17 18:49:01 Why does Maemo reboot if i kill X? Mar 17 18:49:18 becuase killing is wrong >:( Mar 17 18:49:21 because of watchdog Mar 17 18:49:21 Not that I'm in need of a framebuffer, but why? Mar 17 18:49:38 ok Mar 17 18:52:48 Lo... On wikipedia I just read this... £Even though MeeGo was initiated as collaboration between Nokia and Intel, the collaboration was formed when Nokia was already developing the next incarnation of its Maemo Linux distribution. As a result, the Maemo 6 base operating system will be kept intact while the Handset UX will be shared, with the name changed to “MeeGo/Harmattan”." Mar 17 18:53:17 Does this essentially mean the N9 will run MeeGo/Harmattan and that it will continue to be Debian-orientated Maemo at heart but with a MeeGo UX on top? Mar 17 18:53:55 actually not because of watchdog but because of dsme Mar 17 18:53:58 that's always been the case for Maemo 6 Mar 17 18:54:13 watchdog = dsme Mar 17 18:54:23 lifeguard as it's called Mar 17 18:54:47 killing X in R&D mode = dropped into a black screen (framebuffer console not in default kernel) Mar 17 18:55:27 MohammadAG, so surely this means the new MeeGo UX will be debian-packaged? Mar 17 18:55:44 MeeGo is RPM based Mar 17 18:55:48 Maemo 6 is debian based Mar 17 18:55:53 different OSs Mar 17 18:55:59 different openness Mar 17 18:56:09 "As a result, the Maemo 6 base operating system will be kept intact while the Handset UX will be shared, with the name changed to “MeeGo/Harmattan”." Mar 17 18:56:25 By "base operating system" I'm thinking Maemo 6 will continue to be debian and dpkg Mar 17 18:56:39 if it's dpkg based... and the MeeGo UX is going on top... then it'll have to be in debian dpkg format no? Mar 17 18:57:00 yes, but MeeGo UX != MeeGo Mar 17 18:57:06 I'm not saying it is Mar 17 18:57:12 and Maemo 6 != MeeGo Mar 17 18:57:17 I'm not saying that either Mar 17 18:57:23 Maemo was and always will be debian based Mar 17 18:57:30 I've been quite explicit about how I've phrased things Mar 17 18:57:38 Maemo 6 is just using MeeGo's UX Mar 17 18:57:55 but it's still maemo, and probably a bit more closed Mar 17 18:58:06 Right so the N9 will run MeeGo/Harmatted (AKA Maemo 6) and will be Debian based and runs the MeeGo UX which will be install/upgraded via dpkg right? Mar 17 18:58:18 there will be no N9 Mar 17 18:58:32 yes, and that ^ too Mar 17 18:58:37 jacekowski, well Nokia have been claiming a MeeGo handset is still due - so the N9 surely? Mar 17 18:58:45 no Mar 17 18:58:45 N950 Mar 17 18:58:46 N950 Mar 17 18:58:48 Not convinced anyone would use MeeGo UX.. Mar 17 18:59:02 ShadowJK, long live cordia Mar 17 19:00:02 ok so the N950 will run MeeGo/Harmatton... (formerly known as Maemo6)... a _Debian_ based OS that will run the MeeGo UX which will install/upgrade via apt/dpkg ? Mar 17 19:00:02 I mean, MeeGo *UX are like placeholders saying Mar 17 19:00:07 is _that_ statement true? :D Mar 17 19:00:47 yes Mar 17 19:00:51 Cool :) Mar 17 19:00:54 ShadowJK, true Mar 17 19:01:23 So if... _if_ there is ever a Maemo 7 (properly known as... MeeGo/FuckKnows)... is it likely to leave Debian behind? Mar 17 19:01:54 since Novell have an openSUSE version of MeeGo.... can't Nokia just have a Debian version of MeeGo (formerly known as Maemo lol) Mar 17 19:02:09 nah, maemo will be maemo Mar 17 19:02:22 but there is no more Maemo... there is only MeeGo/Whatever now Mar 17 19:02:42 there is a Maemo maintained by the community as best as they can Mar 17 19:02:48 this is my understanding. Mar 17 19:02:52 opensuse can't claim opensuse+meego is meego, and i dont think they can use the meego name Mar 17 19:03:04 so i dont see how nokia can call it meego either Mar 17 19:03:10 no but they _can_ use the MeeGo UX Mar 17 19:03:19 well it's GPL so.... Mar 17 19:03:22 they pay more to the linux foundation? Mar 17 19:03:26 WM7: Kill It With Fire Mar 17 19:03:35 chx: software license != trademark license Mar 17 19:04:49 I'd rather see a range of MeeGo UX based distributions that are based/backed by your garden variety desktop distro makers (like openSUSE, Debian, Ubuntu, Fedora etc...). Maemo happened to be Debian based, so Nokia can continue to make they're own variety of a MeeGo UX based distro using Debian at it's core right? Mar 17 19:05:03 *their Mar 17 19:06:19 i.e. Maemo continues... name slightly changed (again)... and Hildon is traded for MeeGo UX... the end. Mar 17 19:06:40 MohammadAG, wishful thinking or am I on the nose here? Mar 17 19:07:24 Lantizia, I think you overlook the detail that Nokia is turning from self-development to being one of a couple hardware-providers for MS? Mar 17 19:07:33 WTF is an Opensuse-meego? Mar 17 19:07:47 DocScrutinizer, openSUSE running the MeeGo UX Mar 17 19:07:54 eeeww Mar 17 19:08:13 just as MeeGo/Harmatten sounds like it's going to be Maemo running the MeeGo UX Mar 17 19:08:27 i.e. still debian Mar 17 19:08:38 yacc, yeah that hurts me inside :( Mar 17 19:08:42 Lantizia, hence Nokia's announcements about their roadmap in the past were kind of vaporware-ish, but with the new course from the CEO downward, who can fathom what Nokia will deliver in n months? Mar 17 19:09:56 yacc, I like to look at it as ... they got tired of critics moaning about Symbian, didn't think MeeGo was polished enough to replace Symbian yet... wanted $1 billion dollars... thought fine we'll have WP7 to replace Symbian only and if it goes tits up they can blame Microsoft and maybe Meego (still going on the Nxxx range) can be brought back in to the limelight Mar 17 19:10:19 even Apple made a deal with MS back in the 90's for a shit load of cash and non-voting shares... only to turn on them again in the end Mar 17 19:10:29 this may be a temporary alliance of convenience Mar 17 19:10:30 http://sf2011.meego.com/program/sessions/harmattan-meego-community Mar 17 19:11:03 Lantizia, if they had decided to abandon their developer base, they probably should have taken Android, and added Nokia services (they are one of the few companies that own digital maps for most of the globe) instead of loosing completely the control of the software stack. Or leave the Google services in and take the bribe that Google offered, ... Mar 17 19:11:38 Lantizia, Well, if there wouldn't be the small detail that Mr Elop happens to be raised in the MS-way, .... Mar 17 19:11:56 Nah... don't agree, I still like the idea that the Linux Foundation are setting the rules on what the minimum base OS should have... and the idea of all using the same mobile-orientated UX Mar 17 19:12:42 But I still want my choice in package management, so it's cool if you can get a MeeGo orientated distro from your preferred community (debian, ubuntu, opensuse, fedora, etc) Mar 17 19:12:52 Lantizia, yeah, I said if they don't have the will to go with their own developers, then Android would make way more sense than MS, but ... Mar 17 19:14:04 my contract runs out in june... the samsung galaxy S II will be out then... will see what the situation is like then Mar 17 19:16:30 * pupnik agrees with yacc Mar 17 19:16:33 Lantizia, well, I personally always buy open phones, and use them with a discount provider ;) Mar 17 19:16:41 ex-microsoft man as president = evil inside (tm) Mar 17 19:17:35 well the one thing I hated about meego at least won't be in meego/harmatten :P I'm happy Mar 17 19:17:39 roll on the n950 :P Mar 17 19:17:41 I hope the n950 is open enough. Mar 17 19:17:42 pupnik, well, the real evil here is the Qt policy. As if they would be not able to provide libraries that allow all WP7 phones to run an application written with Qt, I mean it's possible even for Android devices, ... Mar 17 19:17:52 I might be able to just about afford a n950. Mar 17 19:17:55 Lantizia: what is that? Mar 17 19:18:00 pupnik, rpm's Mar 17 19:18:05 But if it's not very open, I'm holding off for something else. Mar 17 19:18:11 ?! how do you know this? Mar 17 19:18:28 pupnik, read the entire discussion that just finished lol Mar 17 19:18:31 is there news about "n950"? Mar 17 19:18:33 SpeedEvil, it won't be as closed as M5, but still :P Mar 17 19:19:00 pupnik: don't think so. Mar 17 19:19:03 pupnik: cancelled? Mar 17 19:19:24 RST38h, doubtful Mar 17 19:19:31 pupnik, OTOH, it's best Nokia tradition, I had to use an old E61 for 2 weeks while my N900 was replaced, and so I googled around a little bit, all the different versions of S60 where a nightmare for developers even back then, ... Mar 17 19:20:24 yacc: yes i'm using an e71 now for my phone (n900 for my phun) Mar 17 19:20:48 i hate how symbian lacks proper update support Mar 17 19:21:32 So developing for Nokia phones has been always something for SM practitioners, with emphasis on the M. Why should being backstabbed by Nokia be something new, it's a tradition ;) Mar 17 19:22:00 Although I wonder, I mean, AFAIK, Nokia still has no written contract with MS, ... Mar 17 19:23:21 maybe they can build nice hardware, people will hate the wm7, and we can run linux on them Mar 17 19:23:53 pupnik: expect ms boot loader to be locked to the gills Mar 17 19:24:04 ah Mar 17 19:24:08 can you use qt on android? if qt creator could do that... and wm7 doesn't have it... but meego does... and symbian does... :) Mar 17 19:24:20 Lantizia: see Necessitas Mar 17 19:24:33 cool Mar 17 19:25:03 RST38h, shame google don't mandate it's inclusion as default Mar 17 19:25:30 it's WIP Mar 17 19:25:42 pupnik, I don't think so, because WP7 equals a very strict list of hardware requirements (which are said to be slightly dated, kind of 1-2 years compared to current Android/iPhone handsets), so if they don't get a special dispension from MS, they'll be able to produce more or less the same phones that are currently on the market, now with Nokia logo, and slightly more flash, and slightly more mega pixel then the others, and we offer it in a dozen colors, ... Mar 17 19:26:27 yacc: i think the 'esc button' requirement should have been part of the N900 Mar 17 19:26:35 Lantizia, yeah, you can compile Qt apps for Android. AFAIK it works by creating a native app compiled to ARM, with some Java packaging so it looks like a nice Android app to the phone. Mar 17 19:26:54 yacc, this using necessitas? Mar 17 19:27:12 Lantizia, ? Mar 17 19:27:27 yacc, what RST38h just said Mar 17 19:28:26 Lantizia, well, yes, I'd expect a MS bootloader to be a XBox360 style bootloader, including hardware destroying properties if you try to play games with it, ... Mar 17 19:28:49 yacc, wth are you on about? lol Mar 17 19:29:01 http://sourceforge.net/p/necessitas/home/ Mar 17 19:29:12 efuses Mar 17 19:29:14 that is what RST38h was on about Mar 17 19:29:58 at this point i should be supporting palm pre Mar 17 19:37:20 yeah this is what i leaning towards too, not the HP Pre 3 but the Veer Mar 17 19:38:43 In other news: Bulgarian Dog Spinning banned Mar 17 19:40:58 fuck, what am I going to do now on Sat night Mar 17 19:41:50 check youtube for bulgarian dog spinning Mar 17 20:20:46 jacekowski, are you still here? Mar 17 20:29:36 hello all Mar 17 20:30:19 can somebody tell me how to connect my n900 to the internet through usb please ? Mar 17 20:32:52 on linux ubuntu 10.10 * :) Mar 17 20:35:36 Venemo:are you there ? Mar 17 20:35:58 mlwane, yes, I'm here Mar 17 20:36:25 would you please how to connect my n900 to internet through usb Mar 17 20:36:33 I don't know Mar 17 20:36:37 i have ubuntu 10.10 Mar 17 20:36:41 I've never done such a thing Mar 17 20:36:48 oh Mar 17 20:36:55 okay then :) Mar 17 20:36:58 you're better of trying to make an ad-hoc wi-fi if your computer has a wi-fi card Mar 17 20:37:09 thanks Mar 17 20:37:16 yeah i've done that Mar 17 20:37:28 mlwane, http://wiki.maemo.org/N900_USB_networking Mar 17 20:37:34 but ad-hoc consumes lot of power ! Mar 17 20:38:33 i've been trying that wiki Mar 17 20:38:55 mlwane, you connect your N900 to your laptop, then it'll charge through usb Mar 17 20:39:37 * ShadowJK just did whatever he did before to connect phones to computer via bluetooth, except left out all the bluetooth specific steps of the guide Mar 17 20:39:42 but am stuck at configuring ubuntu Mar 17 20:40:32 I think that "N900_USB_networking" thing is not relevant for connecting to the internet on the PC using N900 as modem via USB Mar 17 20:40:32 yeah but i want to leave it connected for a pretty long period Mar 17 20:40:48 and that is not good for the battery Mar 17 20:41:45 am not trying to use n900 as a modem Mar 17 20:42:32 am trying to connect to the internet on the n900 through usb Mar 17 20:43:43 in the wiki article there is this point which i can not get .. Mar 17 20:43:55 "Create the file in /etc/udev/rules.d/99-nokia-n900.rules and put in the following" Mar 17 20:45:08 where are GPRS data amount log files? or arn't that stored in files? Mar 17 20:45:55 I think they are in gconf Mar 17 20:47:07 ahh! will look! id like to back it up :p Mar 17 21:02:11 mlwane, what is unclear with that point? Mar 17 21:02:48 the file Mar 17 21:03:27 i can't get what file should create ! Mar 17 21:10:39 mlwane: interested in some scripts for USB outbound networking? Mar 17 21:12:55 http://pastebin.com/MdPdcBFR and http://pastebin.com/dTMxKV1N take care of the N900 side. Mar 17 21:13:35 As you'll notice there are some additional stuff in there, I like to start x11vnc on the n900 and vncviewer on my desktop while the USB connection comes up. Mar 17 21:15:21 thanks a lot, i will have a look at the sites Mar 17 21:17:05 mlwane: the file to create is /etc/udev/rules.d/99-nokia-n900.rules in that step Mar 17 21:17:40 in case you have a user background "only" though you might not know about the underlying file structure, so it might look confusing Mar 17 21:19:16 so the directory will be "rules.d" and the file will be "99-nokia-n900.rules" yeah ? Mar 17 21:21:33 http://pastebin.com/7YueEtHa <= that's the host side configuration, extra stuff in there Mar 17 21:22:36 mlwane, the rules are only if want to have a specific device name => if do not have such rules the N900 shows up as a generic usb0 device => if you have multiple devices that can act as an USB network device the rules thing is useful. Mar 17 21:25:23 yeah i can see the device in the wired network section but it says that the device is not managed Mar 17 21:47:10 Hi all :) Mar 17 21:52:31 * pupnik is have pizzagasm Mar 17 21:54:09 that's weird, I wonder why hermes unmerged my contacts Mar 17 21:54:29 Hi. How can I find out the IP address of my N900 (connected by WiFi or 3G)? Prefer command-line if possible. Mar 17 21:54:50 ifconfig? Mar 17 21:55:20 that will tell you the address inside the NAT Mar 17 21:56:35 http://whatismyipaddress.com/ Mar 17 21:59:02 Hey guys, I don't know if this is the right channel but... has anyone configured the n900 to send and recv SMS via bluetooth with a linux pc? Mar 17 21:59:23 Files transfers are working fine with gnome-phone-manager Mar 17 22:00:30 Surjikal, this is the right channel, yes Mar 17 22:02:38 Venemo, Ok great.. I did install the gnokii-conf package (on the n900) and configured using the GUI. It did really do anything.. Mar 17 22:02:55 It did not** Mar 17 22:03:22 Surjikal, sorry, but I don't know the answer. please be patient, someone else may come along who knows :) Mar 17 22:03:43 Venemo, sounds good, thanks! Mar 17 22:05:07 Venemo: Thanks for the answer of "ifconfig". I had already tried that, actually, but ifconfig is not an available command. Is there some package from maemo.org that I should install to get ifconfig? Mar 17 22:05:39 kwtm, try 'root' then 'ifconfig' Mar 17 22:06:05 Venemo: Ahh, I was ahead of you there. Tried and failed. Are you able to do ifconfig on your N900? Mar 17 22:06:15 yes. Mar 17 22:06:24 Surjikal: You may want to post this in the maemo.org talk forums so people who just happen not to be online might be able to help. Mar 17 22:06:25 but it only finds the command when I'm root Mar 17 22:06:47 interestingly Mar 17 22:06:48 kwtm, 'sudo gainroot' then 'ifconfig'? Mar 17 22:06:52 Venemo: Would you mind checking which package provides that ifconfig command on your N900? (I forget the actual command ... apt-cache search ifconfig or something...) Mar 17 22:07:18 kwtm, it's there by default Mar 17 22:07:22 Surjikal: Umm... does "sudo gainroot" do something different from "root"? Mar 17 22:07:38 yes. Mar 17 22:07:39 Venemo: Okay, would you mind typing "type ifconfig" on your N900? Maybe my path is not set up correctly. Mar 17 22:07:43 but you should use 'root' Mar 17 22:07:43 kwtm, not sure.. try just 'sudo ifconfig' Mar 17 22:08:19 kwtm, 'ifconfig is /sbin/ifconfig' Mar 17 22:08:34 Venemo: Thanks. Will set that up. Mar 17 22:09:00 Strange that the path was unset Mar 17 22:09:34 Surjikal: Interesting. It's in the path. I wonder why root can't run it after "root"... Mar 17 22:09:48 kwtm, did you try sudo ifconfig? Mar 17 22:09:57 That's how I normally do it. Mar 17 22:10:13 That and sudo gainroot, ifconfig Mar 17 22:10:25 or** Mar 17 22:10:27 Hmm, it's aliased to busybox... Mar 17 22:10:39 ehhh? Mar 17 22:10:46 that is strange Mar 17 22:11:01 not really. that's how busybox works Mar 17 22:11:15 symlinked, rather than aliased Mar 17 22:11:20 correct Mar 17 22:11:36 I see, how does it know which program to execute? Mar 17 22:11:43 busybox is a single binary, implementing sh, cat, ifconfig, top, etc. etc. Mar 17 22:11:56 it works out how to behave based on what it was called as Mar 17 22:12:01 Surjikal: Did you pre-configure the sudoers file to allow ifconfig? Mine says "user is not allowed to run /sbin/ifconfig" Mar 17 22:12:17 Don't remember 100% but I doubt it. Mar 17 22:12:28 Well, it's aliased to /sbin/ifconfig which is symlinked to busybox. Mar 17 22:12:30 Surjikal, the path from which your executable is called is passed as the first parameter to it. so it is the first item of main()'s argv Mar 17 22:13:22 (the first parameter, argv[0], is the name by which the program was invoked) Mar 17 22:13:24 Cool, got a new solution for my Qml theming under meego issue :) Mar 17 22:13:32 anyway guys, I've gon an exam tomorrow and very little chance. so at least I'll try to rest before it :) Mar 17 22:13:34 byebye Mar 17 22:13:35 i.e. the 0th parameter of "echo a b c" is echo, not a Mar 17 22:13:40 good luck Venemo Mar 17 22:14:00 Right, I thought that would have been busybox. I guess it makes sense that its ifconfig though :D Mar 17 22:14:02 mlwane, well, you do not want it managed via NetworkManager, you want it managed via the old style Debian interfaces files. Mar 17 22:14:03 Neat Mar 17 22:14:08 BCMM, yeah, that's what I said :) Mar 17 22:14:22 MohammadAG, thank you, but luck isn't going to compensate for my lack of knowledge this time Mar 17 22:14:38 Venemo: indeed it was :) i'm too slow Mar 17 22:15:07 yacc: and how do i achieve that ? Mar 17 22:15:31 no problem BCMM, your explanation makes more sense. (except the part about echo. echo is not an executable.) :P Mar 17 22:15:42 hahah Mar 17 22:15:58 'type echo' -> 'echo is a shell builtin' Mar 17 22:16:37 MohammadAG, I would have required about a week to learn this shit, but I had a single afternoon instead. Mar 17 22:16:54 Venemo: it doesn't have to be Mar 17 22:16:55 good luck for you exam tomorrow Venemo :) Mar 17 22:17:15 So, anyone knows how to get sms over bluetooth working with the n900? Mar 17 22:17:15 yacc, i tried to add the "usb0" interface to "/etc/network/interfaces" but that didn't work Mar 17 22:17:17 Venemo: on a normal machine, you'll find a /bin/echo too Mar 17 22:17:20 alterego, honestly, I'll probably fail it. Mar 17 22:17:27 Wow, first time ssh'ing into my N900. What fun. I don't even have to hook up a USB cable. :) Mar 17 22:17:49 BCMM, interesting. there's /bin/echo on my Fedora :P Mar 17 22:18:06 BCMM, yet, 'type echo' says that it's a shell builtin too Mar 17 22:18:15 Venemo: yeah, there would be on any "ordinary" GNU/Linux system Mar 17 22:18:34 mhm Mar 17 22:18:44 Venemo: If you use a shell that doesn't have echo as a built-in, your /bin/echo is there. Mar 17 22:18:46 Venemo: yeah, because it's an easy thing to implement and greatly improves performance of shell scripts Mar 17 22:18:59 Venemo: it's part of GNU Coreutils Mar 17 22:19:03 mhmm Mar 17 22:19:06 interesting :) Mar 17 22:19:14 part of busybox on the N900! Mar 17 22:19:37 yeah, maemo has no coreutils by default Mar 17 22:19:52 Although I'm switching everything over to printf (which I guess wasn't there in the olden days, because I don't see how echo could offer anything that printf doesn't). Mar 17 22:20:17 Venemo: coreutils is the package providing stuff like cat and so on on a normal GNU system Mar 17 22:20:35 BCMM, yeah, I'm aware of that :) Mar 17 22:20:35 other BB stuff like top and ifconfig are normally provided by other projects, though Mar 17 22:20:41 oh, sorry Mar 17 22:20:45 no problem Mar 17 22:21:11 :) Mar 17 22:21:16 Okay, found ifconfig. It's at /sbin/ifconfig, and I just have to specify the full pathname, and then I can execute it as user, even. :) Mar 17 22:21:23 anyway, goodbye :) Mar 17 22:22:45 guys does anybody know how to share my laptop's internet with my n900 via usb ? (Ubuntu 10.10) Mar 17 22:23:18 mlwane, there's a bunch of guides out there I believe. Mar 17 22:24:06 I think connecting via usb will create a network. Not too sure though.. Try plugging it in and check ifconfig Mar 17 22:24:21 Surjikal, yeah but unfortunately none of them worked with me :( Mar 17 22:24:25 mlwane, why don't you just set up an ad-hoc wifi? Mar 17 22:25:11 ad-hoc will use a lot of power Mar 17 22:25:18 who cares? Mar 17 22:25:21 Is it possible to play back a sound file over a phone call? Mar 17 22:25:29 no Mar 17 22:25:34 mlwane, yeah, you were going to plug it in anyway Mar 17 22:25:55 venemo, why not? Mar 17 22:27:03 we could build a telescope to detect organic molecules on other planets Mar 17 22:27:07 1.5 billion euro Mar 17 22:27:18 Surjikal, yeah but i want to keep it running for a long period of time and that will ruin the battery by time Mar 17 22:27:36 is there a way to play only sound from an mp4 file? Mar 17 22:28:03 mlwane, I guess so.. you could always remove the battery I think. But in any case, usb tethering should work. Mar 17 22:29:17 Surjikal, usb tethering is not that to use the phone as a modem only ? Mar 17 22:32:30 Ruin the battery - how? Mar 17 22:34:11 by keeping on recharging it all the day Mar 17 22:34:14 mlwane, I thought thats what you wanted. So you want to share you pc's network connection with the n900? Mar 17 22:34:54 Surjikal, yes Mar 17 22:37:02 How do I find out the RSA key fingerprint of my N900 that I'm SSH'ing into? Somehow it asked me this time "hey are you sure there's no MitM?" but last time it didn't. Mar 17 22:37:41 umm... Mar 17 22:37:56 /home/user/.ssh I thin Mar 17 22:37:59 k Mar 17 22:38:36 It will store the key - or it should, and if it changes, will warn Mar 17 22:40:11 SpeedEvil: No. It's not there. You're referring to the hashes of the key of the remote computer (which still isn't useful since it's hashed). What I'm talking about is if it warns: Hey! Are you sure this is right? The key I'm getting from the remote server is AA-BB-CC-DD-whatever. Is that correct? Mar 17 22:40:29 The question is: how do you go to the remote server and check if it really is "AA-BB-CC-DD-whatever"? Where is that stored? Mar 17 22:42:06 Oh Mar 17 22:42:15 /etc/ssh/ssh_host_key Mar 17 22:42:38 This gets stored - along with the user key - in ~/.ssh/known hosts on your local system. Mar 17 22:42:44 Or something like that. Mar 17 22:42:51 If either of these changes, it warns. Mar 17 22:42:52 I think Mar 17 22:43:55 Thanks, SpeedEvil Mar 17 22:44:15 I did get a permission denied, but I was able to find this command posted on the web, which does what I want ... ssh-keygen -l -f /etc/ssh/ssh_host_rsa_key Mar 17 22:44:21 man sshd Mar 17 22:44:35 accompanied by a blog posting how ridiculous it is that it takes so much trouble just to get the hostkey. Mar 17 22:44:38 That should get run at first run of sshd Mar 17 22:45:20 I mean, I'm just trying to log in from another computer just to get things done ... by this time I've forgotten why I wanted to ssh into the N900 in the first place ... Mar 17 22:45:28 Oh, well, another alias to be defined... Mar 17 22:45:47 kwtm: heh Mar 17 22:46:04 kwtm: i've done that before ;) Mar 17 22:46:26 installed openssh then didn't find a use for it . but then again i don't dev much on it :) Mar 17 22:46:32 i'm sure the coder fanboys love it Mar 17 22:46:36 mlwane, where are you stuck? Mar 18 00:05:21 Hi dear people :D Mar 18 00:59:47 Where can I find a cross compliler with tools for N900? Mar 18 00:59:54 toolchain Mar 18 01:00:41 lolcat, scratchbox Mar 18 01:00:54 the normal sdk includes it :) Mar 18 01:01:20 though you oculd be tough as nails and not use a cross compiler ;) Mar 18 01:01:35 Is there a tutorial on how to cross compile things? Mar 18 01:01:59 I have to cross compile it with the toolchain for it to work. It is intended for a quite diffrent kernel. Mar 18 01:07:31 lcuk: I am going to install dalvik on it Mar 18 01:08:13 lolcat, cool, well have fun, the scratchbox guys did a good job Mar 18 01:09:16 lcuk: Lets hope it is good enough to run dalvik. Mar 18 01:09:38 lolcat, dalvik is fake java isn't it? Mar 18 01:09:47 there is hardware support for java and not being used Mar 18 01:10:17 Yes, dalvik is Android JVM: Mar 18 01:10:37 didn't that already get run before? Mar 18 01:11:06 On the N900? Oo Mar 18 01:11:22 In Maemo? Mar 18 01:12:39 lolcat, IDK about maemo, but on the n900 at least :) Mar 18 01:12:52 lcuk: I hate android OS. Mar 18 01:12:55 I love Maemo Mar 18 01:13:02 And I like spotify Mar 18 01:13:15 that is good then Mar 18 01:13:36 but if you make everything spotty won't it look a bit odd? Mar 18 01:13:49 spotty? Mar 18 01:15:19 lcuk: ^ Mar 18 01:15:52 lolcat, if you love spottifying things the by definition become spotty Mar 18 01:16:11 I like the music Mar 18 02:26:41 kwtm: I gather you severely misunderstood the recommended usage of PKI and ssh Mar 18 02:27:27 for sue there's no use in defining a shortcut/alias for ssh-keygen Mar 18 02:27:32 sure* Mar 18 02:30:55 kwtm: I frequently use >>ssh -o StrictHostKeyChecking=no -o UserKnownHostsFile=/dev/null -l root t900<< to log in to devices which change IP or name Mar 18 02:35:22 kwtm: sorry if your problem is one I never seen and my comment was off topic, but the only MitM warnings I've ever seen were when IP of remote system changed Mar 18 02:35:47 and that'S a really rather useless function tbh, at least IMHO Mar 18 02:52:30 (reagrding the Pb shielded helis) I learnt the SFP with all the rods exposed (no water) is sending up *massive* gamma like a flashlight. I still wonder if they ever heard about fly-by-wire and remote control, rather than risking health and life of pilots Mar 18 02:55:31 really operating all sorts of vehicles isn't anything you need a human *inside*, no matter if it's airborne, tank, whatever Mar 18 02:56:12 sending up? .. i doubt it directs it only the containment and other shielding may prevent sending it into other directions and maybe core geometry gives upwards a little favor Mar 18 02:56:43 I might understand why USSR wasn't able to use that technology in 1986, but hey JP is considered the land of robots and electronics Mar 18 02:57:05 spent fuel pool Mar 18 02:57:08 hey they had no containment and nothing at all above the core .. it was way easier reachable Mar 18 02:57:24 easy access technology :P Mar 18 02:57:48 btw japan asked for robots from germany .. Mar 18 02:58:01 I bet we love to send those Mar 18 02:58:19 asimo's are useless plaything ... real robots are made in germany Mar 18 02:58:19 they should've asked on day0 Mar 18 02:58:57 well "should" .. there should be no day0 ... but Mar 18 02:59:16 however putting some 6 servos into a tank isn't anything near rocket science Mar 18 02:59:42 in holywood they do that all the time, for their car stunts Mar 18 02:59:51 getting a lot redundant extra pipes an valves there isnt either **** ENDING LOGGING AT Fri Mar 18 02:59:57 2011