**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Thu Mar 31 02:59:58 2011 Mar 31 04:32:20 i <3 maemo every day more and more Mar 31 04:32:32 i ♥* maemo every day more and more Mar 31 04:39:28 * pupnik is frustrated by segfault on n900 which doesn't appear on x86 Mar 31 05:49:32 http://www.theregister.co.uk/2011/03/30/samsung_imitating_sony/ <-- haha Mar 31 06:00:01 http://www.linuxfordevices.com/c/a/News/Hercules-eCAF-Slim-HD-and-EX-HD/ <-- cute Mar 31 06:07:26 mornin ruskie Mar 31 06:10:11 http://www.theregister.co.uk/2011/03/29/google_android_and_the_linux_headers/ hmm Mar 31 06:25:25 One one hand, I think (especially since the original story came from a guy with previous ties to Microsoft) the whole thing is just FUD. Mar 31 06:26:26 On the other hand, if Google gets bit in an ironic twist outcome of their attempt to "keep GPL out of user space" it kindof serves them right. Mar 31 06:26:57 And then on the third hand, it had been a few years since some real, substantial FUD was flying around, it's nicely nostalgic :) Mar 31 06:28:47 Why didn't anyone ask him if it was public record etc etc, WHY did he remove it a week before? Mar 31 06:29:45 Certainly doesn't give the impression of someone with nothing to hide, eh? But if they invalidate his claims by nailing him on that question, then there's no news story left. Mar 31 06:35:48 The sad part is, if he HADN'T they wouldn't listen at all, just saying "oh well, OBVIOUSLY he's just saying it for MS" Mar 31 06:36:17 Him being involved with them doesn't mean he's not right, but yeah, trying to hide it (and not getting away with it) looks worse. Mar 31 06:56:10 yep yep Mar 31 06:56:17 * pupnik agrees with keithzg and krayon Mar 31 06:56:34 well i have a workaround for this game and the tiny (!) n900 screen Mar 31 06:56:48 wee Mar 31 06:56:50 pupnik: got a work around for chording keys on the n900? Mar 31 06:56:59 what's the problem ds3 ? Mar 31 06:57:06 pupnik: What game? Mar 31 06:57:11 daimonin Mar 31 06:57:49 pupnik: stella... I can't chord keys so it makes it a bit tricky to play some games (i.e. can't fire and move) Mar 31 06:58:32 ds3: you mean you cannot fire and move at the same time? Mar 31 06:59:01 i thought n900 supported multiple keypresses Mar 31 07:00:52 I've not had any issues related to multi-key press Mar 31 07:01:29 I at least press 2/3 at a time using my Game Gripper Mar 31 07:04:06 pupnik: Thanks, gonna try this out :) Mar 31 07:04:17 Now, off 'ome... Mar 31 07:04:46 pupnik: yep Mar 31 07:04:58 more specifically, I can't jump and move. makes it hard to play pitfall :D Mar 31 07:07:04 ds3: who is the stella porter? Mar 31 07:07:23 pupnik: you Mar 31 07:07:42 you're using that old thing :/ Mar 31 07:07:50 at least you gave me the link to the deb; it was for the N8xx and I had to force install it Mar 31 07:07:55 is there a newer/better one? Mar 31 07:08:06 i just sort of assumed there would be Mar 31 07:08:40 heh... I think I pestered you about it enough that you gave me the link to that old one Mar 31 07:09:04 i am sorry, that does suck Mar 31 07:09:41 maybe there's a quick fix ds3 Mar 31 07:09:48 =) Mar 31 07:11:14 it really does burn power though Mar 31 07:26:39 ds3: perhaps there's a more optimized emulator available? Mar 31 07:27:20 pupnik: not for the 2600 hardware Mar 31 07:27:53 ds3: i thought you could emulate that with a lego set by now Mar 31 07:28:09 I do wonder if a USB keyboard/mouse would do better... but that takes some setup Mar 31 07:28:19 it isn't that primative of a chip!! Mar 31 07:30:00 that thing has to sync video on a very primative way Mar 31 07:32:07 ahh yes scanline Mar 31 07:32:20 "in" and "primitive" Mar 31 07:32:22 they didn't have enough memory for a full bitmap Mar 31 07:33:18 4197 tiles converted Mar 31 07:37:17 do somebody know how could I disable editing the desktop (on maemo) by longpressing the display Mar 31 07:37:38 hello Mar 31 07:37:38 Hay phap leuk dat je wat zegt Mar 31 07:37:39 it just misalign very often my desktop while the phone is in the pocket Mar 31 07:37:55 zaleb, I don't understand sorry Mar 31 07:42:13 he thinks you're dutch Mar 31 08:02:16 zaleb, english please Mar 31 08:04:02 > Mar 31 08:06:36 woops Mar 31 08:18:49 well anyway Mar 31 08:19:40 I think I'm dreaming but is there anybody who knows how to display only the album art which is currently playing with media player on the desktop with a simple command? Mar 31 08:19:56 or relative simple? Mar 31 08:27:17 DocScrutinizer: did you mean that maemo-tvout-control? Mar 31 08:43:19 phap: the closed source nature of the default media player makes such things far harder than they should be :( Mar 31 08:44:56 phap, keithzg :) there is an open source media player in production Mar 31 08:45:19 a rewrite of the UI using Qt and talking to the MAFW backend (just like the original one) :) Mar 31 08:46:00 nice; yet another reason I gotta get myself a backup N900 just in case, haha, it just keeps getting better. Mar 31 08:47:06 I hope it's coming soon then Mar 31 08:47:40 I tried to compile the media player widget but could'nt Mar 31 08:47:47 *from source Mar 31 08:47:53 crashanddie, could you perhaps guide these restless souls towards the TMO thread? Mar 31 08:51:00 lcuk? Sorry? Mar 31 08:51:10 what am I, the doorman? Mar 31 08:52:17 phap: the mediaplayer gets a cssu relplacement some time Mar 31 08:52:52 crashanddie: you look more like a chef, may i have breakfast then? Mar 31 08:53:00 ^^ Mar 31 08:53:14 I hope it'll be customizable Mar 31 08:53:28 crashanddie, I mistakenly thought you would know which thread it was on since you were hacking around with it yourself :P Mar 31 08:53:41 * crashanddie stuffs chem|st's face full with eggs Mar 31 08:53:45 HAHA! Can't talk! Mar 31 08:53:58 I guess it will be open source Mar 31 08:54:15 lcuk, I've been on TMO once in the last year or so :P Mar 31 09:17:06 http://www.theregister.co.uk/2011/03/31/microsoft_google_monopoly/ <-- haha Mar 31 10:08:35 out of curiosity, has anyone had any luck with MfE + Exch 2010? Mar 31 10:11:34 cmantito: i think nokia is using it Mar 31 10:11:51 which would give a fairly sizable userbase Mar 31 10:12:28 hmm Mar 31 10:13:13 I had it working with Exch 07, but when I try to use it with Exch 2010 it just will not connect, it's quite strange. Mar 31 10:13:36 you'd have to tell me how to figure out if i'm using 2010 :) Mar 31 10:13:43 i know we got a visual refresh for OWA Mar 31 10:14:04 which basically made OWA work in Firefox and other non IE browsers Mar 31 10:14:48 is it yellowish now? :P Mar 31 10:15:55 yeah Mar 31 10:15:58 it used to be blue Mar 31 10:16:05 that's 2010 then Mar 31 10:16:20 * timeless_w7ip is rather amused Mar 31 10:16:33 such a simple, convenient, efficient and effective version test Mar 31 10:16:53 haha Mar 31 10:16:54 yeah Mar 31 10:17:08 * timeless_w7ip scores +1 to the ms ui team Mar 31 10:17:22 lcuk: no greetings? Mar 31 10:18:05 oh, on the subject of UI/UX Mar 31 10:18:18 cmantito: ... what do you do outside of #maemo? Mar 31 10:18:25 * timeless_w7ip is looking for someone to bumble through a web site Mar 31 10:18:31 define: to bumble Mar 31 10:18:39 hi Mar 31 10:18:51 timeless_w7ip, I do a lot of things, could you be more specific? :) Mar 31 10:18:55 ... to wander aimlessly through, accidentally tripping on things, stumbling over things, bumping into things, and crying "ouch" Mar 31 10:19:13 cmantito: mxr.maemo.org / mxr.meego.com are web sites Mar 31 10:19:32 but they until this morning had a link on their main page which led to a page which always generated errors Mar 31 10:19:49 the code to lead to that path was probably 5-10 years old Mar 31 10:20:10 but people didn't effectively communicate this to me, so i didn't realize what was going wrong / fix it :( Mar 31 10:21:05 if you could look at the site and suggest ways to improve it, that'd be wonderful :) Mar 31 10:21:36 i'm thinking that perhaps the content area on the right should be moved into an "about.html" page leaving only the box on the left Mar 31 10:30:31 timeless_w7ip, ok when I get some time I'll take a look Mar 31 10:35:05 thanks Mar 31 11:24:30 timeless_w7ip: prepare for a lot of 'ouch' and crying. mxr always exposed ... issues... to me Mar 31 11:27:33 ooh DocScrutinizer really, like what? Mar 31 11:28:14 mostly search not working like expected Mar 31 11:28:45 mece, yes you are. Mar 31 11:29:16 but that changed several times during last maybe 6 months, so I'm not sure what's status now Mar 31 11:29:31 DocScrutinizer, curious, whenever I have had to dig around found mxr to be closest to old offline tool I used to use in Windows days Mar 31 11:29:47 but anything has potential glitches Mar 31 11:38:40 as has my knowledge about how to use this tool properly, e.g. I'm not sure if it's mxr's fault or mine, when I miss the "defined at:" proper reference and only several 'referenced at:" hits are displayed Mar 31 11:40:53 might easily be my poor understanding of complex c code and how it works Mar 31 11:55:57 good morning Mar 31 12:00:44 good moaning Mar 31 12:03:20 [2011-03-31 01:31:12] and TVout Mar 31 12:03:35 chem|st: no idea what *I* meant Mar 31 12:06:01 [2011-03-31 04:10:38] Any other way to do video calls? --- SIP can do video calls, at least it offers and tries to establish - never had a chance to test it due to missing peer/account with same properties Mar 31 12:11:30 chx^zzz: (tough devices) panasonic toughbook. The 'old' ones (c-27 e.g.) are cheapish on ebay. You can't destroy them by running over them with a van Mar 31 12:19:16 built to military standards (and that's probably where majority of used ones comes from) Mar 31 12:25:38 DocScrutinizer: was about mirroring Xdisplay Mar 31 12:26:00 chem|st: no idea. Heard xrandr can do it Mar 31 12:26:54 but we only have xserver xtensions but no program makeing use of it Mar 31 12:27:37 I searched for jebba's repository of 34711 debian pkkgs compiled under SB/fremantle, but couldn't find it anymore Mar 31 12:27:58 well Mar 31 12:28:17 g2 doesnt stall out on the tmob connection like the n900 does Mar 31 12:28:20 that was what I was looking for too... Mar 31 12:28:36 it seems smooth. weird Mar 31 12:28:39 a pity Mar 31 12:29:12 when my n900 switches between 2 3 and 3.5G it stalls out and i usually lose my ssh session Mar 31 12:29:44 wonder how meego is doing Mar 31 12:29:48 Macer: 2 to 3 it should be normal Mar 31 12:30:00 3 to 3.5 depends Mar 31 12:30:03 chem|st: i know ;) Mar 31 12:30:22 well. it was driving me nuts Mar 31 12:30:28 the n900 was dated anyways Mar 31 12:30:40 I stay 2g if I want a steady link Mar 31 12:30:54 and with meego taking forever and nokia abandonment seems worthless now Mar 31 12:30:55 I go 3.x for fast downloads if needed Mar 31 12:30:56 yeah Macer, I heard there's no exact specs how 2G<->3G handover is to be handled. It's kinda of defacto standard where each side (modem manufs, carriers) tries his best, and if sth fails then each side points fingers on the other Mar 31 12:31:09 chem|st: well. you shouldnt have to do that Mar 31 12:31:30 Macer: that highly depends on your operator's network Mar 31 12:31:44 DocScrutinizer: heh. well. it seems to work in the same area just fine on the g2 Mar 31 12:31:56 quite possible Mar 31 12:31:59 dropping between 2 3 and 4G Mar 31 12:32:06 some operators deactivate the AP handover Mar 31 12:32:06 without a hiccup Mar 31 12:32:21 maybe the implementation in g2 and t-mo play nice together Mar 31 12:32:31 possibly Mar 31 12:32:47 errr what? 4G? Mar 31 12:32:53 well.... H Mar 31 12:33:07 if you want to call that 4G Mar 31 12:33:14 that is not 4g Mar 31 12:33:26 no? Mar 31 12:33:38 there's a very clear spec about what 2G 2.5, 3G and 3.5 means Mar 31 12:33:47 4G is LTS Mar 31 12:34:09 rly? so why do they market it as 4G" Mar 31 12:34:11 which afaik only in sweden is used yet in small areas, for testing Mar 31 12:34:23 i thought H was hpda Mar 31 12:35:08 hpda not existent. There's HS[U|D]PA Mar 31 12:35:26 which all is called 3.5G Mar 31 12:35:50 to be specific this is UMTS HSPA Mar 31 12:35:53 Macer: actualy it is 3g as there is no official 3.5g afair Mar 31 12:36:07 and hspa+? Mar 31 12:36:40 GSM is 2G, 2G+EDGE=2.5G. UMTS=3G, 3G+HSxPA=3.5G Mar 31 12:36:54 heh Mar 31 12:37:02 there's no such thing like HSPA+ Mar 31 12:37:08 well. seems rather false advertising Mar 31 12:38:02 clever marketing? Mar 31 12:38:40 Macer: there is a false advertising of 3.9G as 4G as it will be compatible to "real" 4G but is actualy 3G Mar 31 12:39:16 3.9G? o.O Mar 31 12:39:23 amof they do not even meet ITU specs Mar 31 12:39:29 haha Mar 31 12:39:36 3.9! Mar 31 12:40:23 "Confusion has been caused by some mobile carriers who have launched products advertised as 4G but which are actually current technologies, commonly referred to as '3.9G', which do not follow the ITU-R defined principles for 4G standards." Mar 31 12:40:45 reads wikipedia Mar 31 12:40:50 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/4G Mar 31 12:41:01 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Umts Mar 31 12:41:47 "Current LTE and WiMAX implementations are considered pre-4G" Mar 31 12:42:13 wimax2 and LTEadvanced are considered to become 4G Mar 31 12:43:16 100mb/s huh? Mar 31 12:43:18 hah Mar 31 12:44:27 http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Long_Term_Evolution Mar 31 12:44:34 E-UTRAN Mar 31 12:44:51 oh Mar 31 12:45:01 itu says they can be considered 4g Mar 31 12:45:05 lame Mar 31 12:45:15 gave in to $ huh? Mar 31 12:45:42 because they are based on the new tech the carrier may use to reach the standard Mar 31 12:45:55 what a racket haha Mar 31 12:47:39 ok, I've been wron LTE!=4G Mar 31 12:51:13 pff there's even HSPA+ Mar 31 12:51:30 tincan string is the new sneakernet Mar 31 12:54:45 hehe Mar 31 12:54:52 took a while to parse Mar 31 12:55:26 * DocScrutinizer prefers lazors Mar 31 12:56:17 not exactly sneaker, but close, way extended operation range, and cool ;-) Mar 31 12:56:53 WARNING: DO NOT LOOK INTO LASER COMMUNICATIONS DEVICE WITH REMAINING EYE Mar 31 12:57:02 ;-P Mar 31 12:57:08 err Mar 31 12:57:11 .-P Mar 31 12:57:16 haha Mar 31 12:59:32 a nice widened beam collimated IR-laser can build a directed communications channel several tens of km distance Mar 31 13:00:10 DocScrutinizer, but you need line of sight. Mar 31 13:00:15 yep Mar 31 13:00:29 modulo rain/fog doesn't really care Mar 31 13:00:35 or a laser powerful enough to create its own tunnel Mar 31 13:01:16 * DocScrutinizer wants to see lcuk pulling his strin thru a hole in next building Mar 31 13:02:00 RFC 103291 telephony using tincans and quantum strings. Mar 31 13:02:11 YAY Mar 31 13:02:26 time for 12648430 ☕ Mar 31 13:03:24 * DocScrutinizer wonders if the flu creates the need for coffee, or the coffee makes him feel like flu Mar 31 13:13:38 lcuk: (laser strong enough) I suggest a less instantly dangerous path: moon/cloud/satellite scatter, sth well known at amateur radio (well, maybe not for the clouds there) Mar 31 13:14:28 DocScrutinizer, shining a sufficiently bright laser into the sky can only lead to one thing: Mar 31 13:14:31 batman appearing. Mar 31 13:14:45 hehe Mar 31 13:15:24 http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meteorscatter Mar 31 13:23:24 * DocScrutinizer ponders WSJT over 14kHz accoustic, to replace lcuk 's string. Could probably get implemented on every standard smartphone, esp N900. Possible range: up to maybe 1000m Mar 31 13:24:09 http://www.hs.fi/kuvat/iso_webkuva/1135263645897.gif Mar 31 13:25:49 jaska: ROTFL Mar 31 13:26:46 jaska: absolutely to the point :-) Best one since long Mar 31 13:27:08 lcuk: see? It's not batman Mar 31 13:28:34 *facepalm* Mar 31 13:28:42 look more like rabBITman Mar 31 13:29:16 *gasp* Mar 31 13:29:34 * DocScrutinizer can't stop cackling Mar 31 13:35:18 is it ok to put the SDK repo in my n900 natively? Mar 31 13:35:37 No Mar 31 13:35:44 I'd like to install some applications such as screen and strace Mar 31 13:35:45 oh ok Mar 31 13:35:51 well Mar 31 13:35:53 so what's the right way to do it? Mar 31 13:35:57 I have scratchbox setup Mar 31 13:35:58 you can add it to install a few apps Mar 31 13:36:15 is it ok if I copy the .deb files from my scratchbox to my n900 Mar 31 13:36:16 ? Mar 31 13:36:22 but don't keep it activated, and don't run stupid things like apt-get upgrade Mar 31 13:36:24 just need a few apps yea Mar 31 13:36:30 yea Mar 31 13:36:38 I'll just activate it for a few things Mar 31 13:36:43 and then comment it out Mar 31 13:37:25 I've had an issue where libglade is crashing when I try to load a glade file from pygtk and I wanted to debug it Mar 31 13:43:45 DocScrutinizer, lcuk: it is batman! http://imagebin.org/145883 Mar 31 13:53:41 hey guys Mar 31 13:53:44 sup sup Mar 31 13:58:31 which debian version is the latest maemo based on? I want to find the right source package for python-glade2? Mar 31 13:58:58 for scratchbox I meant Mar 31 14:09:32 lcuk: use your noisebox (aka PC speaker) instead of a string! -> http://wsprnet.org/drupal/node/2646 Mar 31 14:41:00 hey all Mar 31 14:41:01 \o/ Mar 31 14:41:12 i have a lil question about scratchbox Mar 31 14:44:35 using scratchbox vm, I have built the hildon-desktop in the arm target, and it has produced the deb file for the hildon desktop. Now i want to install this file so that the emulator shows me the effects of my changes, the one that we run inside the Xephyr Mar 31 14:45:16 umm from the "[sbox-FREMANTLE_ARMEL: ~/src2] > " I type the "dpkg -i hildon-desktop_2.2.140-1+0m5_armel.deb", but it says i'm not root Mar 31 14:45:51 whoami what say ? Mar 31 14:45:53 and if i type "sudo dpkg -i hildon-desktop_2.2.140-1+0m5_armel.deb" its says sudo: must be setuid root Mar 31 14:45:56 fakeroot dpkg -i... Mar 31 14:46:12 ok wait MohammadAG lemme try Mar 31 14:46:17 why are you installing it anyway Mar 31 14:46:28 it's not like you can bring up the UX in ARMEL anyway Mar 31 14:46:44 oh Mar 31 14:46:50 so how do i test my changes? Mar 31 14:46:54 deploy it on the device? Mar 31 14:47:07 that would be a start Mar 31 14:47:15 or compile for X86 and run it there Mar 31 14:47:28 but I test it on device Mar 31 14:47:38 when we compile for x86, the xephyr emulator will be able to run it ? Mar 31 14:47:53 yes Mar 31 14:48:21 target for scratchbox is x86 target for n900 is armel Mar 31 14:48:43 wait Mar 31 14:49:25 if you wnat to install to device armel if you want to install to "xephyr"(scratchbox) it is 86 Mar 31 14:49:53 so if i'm here "[sbox-FREMANTLE_X86: ~] > " it means i'm building for x86. Now when the deb file is built, On the same prompt (environment) I can do an install, then when I run xephyr, its going to have my changes there? Mar 31 14:50:29 yes Mar 31 14:50:31 MohammadAG: have you got any clue how to mirror Xdisplay on n900? the xrandr extension are there but no xrandr Mar 31 14:50:42 ok Mar 31 14:50:55 um, you can install xrandr on the N900 afaik Mar 31 14:51:29 not sure if it's in the repos, but I had it once Mar 31 14:51:37 from debian/arm? Mar 31 14:51:52 nah, I never install stuff that way Mar 31 14:51:58 get the source and compile it Mar 31 14:52:07 And what about debugging MohammadAG? I mean, right now I'm just opening files in VI, make a lil change, build it, and then going to deploy and see changes, but this way the debugging is going to be pretty hard. Is stepping into the source on certain events supported? Mar 31 14:52:40 not sure, never debugged it, but I'm guessing gdb? Mar 31 14:52:40 and how do I do that? Mar 31 14:52:43 * GAN900 wishes for hardware. Mar 31 14:52:48 HAHA >>Although I was not able to make wspr running on Linux using pulseaudio,... Mar 31 14:52:59 hmmm Mar 31 14:53:01 GAN900, +1 Mar 31 14:53:18 * MohammadAG wants Maemo 5 on new HW Mar 31 14:53:26 MohammadAG: +1 Mar 31 14:54:07 don't know why nokia doesn't just do it... Mar 31 14:55:11 maemo 5 complete open Mar 31 14:55:23 so MohammadAG, when you are changing the hildon source and adding features, you (and other cssu guys i suppose) just change source on some text editor, then build and run (and repeat), no stepping in the source code? Mar 31 14:55:46 pretty much, yeah Mar 31 14:55:53 amazing Mar 31 14:55:56 hehe Mar 31 14:56:43 that's what we in finland call 'stabbing the duck' Mar 31 14:57:12 no replace core and ram with something newer add a compass and ship it... no major hardware change would mean no major coding effort for drivers and stuff Mar 31 14:57:31 printf() pretty much still the most popular debugging method Mar 31 14:57:43 DocScrutinizer: +1 Mar 31 14:58:01 chem|st: maybe bump the VGA cam quality a tiny fraction. Mar 31 14:58:07 I for one prefer gdb whenever possible Mar 31 14:58:25 add HDMI and a compass Mar 31 14:58:37 HDMI is a major change. Mar 31 14:59:01 There are many almost pin compatible changes that can be done 'easily' Mar 31 14:59:01 hdmi and 12mp cam? Mar 31 14:59:11 but thats it... not much of a change Mar 31 14:59:16 Different cam, for example. Mar 31 14:59:32 15MP, 12MP is meh Mar 31 14:59:36 Or keyboard layout. Mar 31 14:59:38 n8 uses the same socket... Mar 31 14:59:43 I want a decent 5MP Mar 31 14:59:50 The existing one is around 2.5 Mar 31 14:59:56 SpeedEvil, tried the iPhone's? Mar 31 15:00:00 (just wondering) Mar 31 15:00:01 MohammadAG: no. Mar 31 15:00:17 MohammadAG: You mean to compare the quality with the n00? Mar 31 15:00:17 10mp for but with a much better chip suits me Mar 31 15:00:38 SpeedEvil, yeah Mar 31 15:00:46 nope, then. Mar 31 15:00:55 MohammadAG: I don't ownany apple proucts anymore. Mar 31 15:00:58 I eated them. Mar 31 15:01:08 i will happen with the same hardware but just vsync and better software for camera ( one that can process image better ) Mar 31 15:01:12 happy* Mar 31 15:01:29 E0x, check out nicolai's rewrite Mar 31 15:01:31 so upgrade of IR from cir to irda is one wire added as the chips already supporting it, it is just not connected Mar 31 15:01:34 it'll be in the next CSSU Mar 31 15:01:40 more ROM/RAM would be 90% of it. Mar 31 15:01:45 For me. Mar 31 15:01:51 Err - more RAM, even. Mar 31 15:01:57 And the faster processor grade. Mar 31 15:02:09 It's still only 720, but 720/512'd be a nice bump. Mar 31 15:02:20 kick 15mp cam with a lens/aperture the size of a pinhole :-( Mar 31 15:02:25 MohammadAG: nicola rewrite is the the same backend afaik and what i see he is not doing anything change of the way that camera handle picture because still are very noisy picture and some iso problems Mar 31 15:02:34 I would be happy with ram cpu/gpu upgrades as well, a compass would be nice but not a must have Mar 31 15:02:35 maybe in the future will better Mar 31 15:02:37 I want a 1" sensor Mar 31 15:02:57 SpeedEvil: indeed i forget that too , more ram Mar 31 15:03:18 DocScrutinizer: buy a DSLR... Mar 31 15:03:42 E0x, noise is prolly cause the lens sucks Mar 31 15:03:58 MohammadAG: The lens can't be much bigger. Mar 31 15:04:01 it would be enough to have the cam app start in under 5 seconds to take snapshots... (thats for an uptime of 9+ days) Mar 31 15:04:09 MohammadAG: The problem is the sensor is too small to allow for the resolution. Mar 31 15:04:25 Many of my issues aren't really HW issues at all. Mar 31 15:04:28 MohammadAG: hmm i don't much about photographic but i doubt is because lense Mar 31 15:04:29 then it's because the sensor sucks :P Mar 31 15:04:29 Most, even. Mar 31 15:04:40 E0x, it is Mar 31 15:04:55 try the N95, I'm pretty sure that doesn't do good processing either Mar 31 15:05:02 I want a 1" sensor Mar 31 15:05:07 SpeedEvil: noise problem is because the sensor ? Mar 31 15:05:28 E0x: The sensor does surprisingly well, for the limited number of photons hitting it. Mar 31 15:05:46 E0x: Size is the major cause of the low performance in the dark. Mar 31 15:05:50 (though good for its class) Mar 31 15:05:58 small sensor == less light Mar 31 15:06:16 less light == more noise Mar 31 15:06:26 true , because in much light the picture look good Mar 31 15:06:35 2 photons = ~0.2 electrons (after the filters and stuff). Mar 31 15:06:37 that's why 15mp is MEH on such a form factor Mar 31 15:06:44 i have a few photo at beach and look great Mar 31 15:06:54 though tbh, I find nicolai's rewrite much better Mar 31 15:07:06 So you need at least a few thousand photons hitting each pixel to get a reasonably noise-free image. Mar 31 15:07:16 it snaps the pic faster, so the pics end up sharper even if you shake the cam after taking the pic Mar 31 15:07:33 And that's in theory - there is probably an irreducable 20 or 50 photoelectron noise in there too. Mar 31 15:07:36 whereas with the stock UI, I have to keep the phone still for like 3-5s Mar 31 15:07:47 more pixels on same area of chip == less light / pixel Mar 31 15:08:22 DocScrutinizer: yeah a bigger sensor with 8mp would be fair enough for a smartphone Mar 31 15:08:48 well actual maemo 5 in new hardware will not that good but maemo 5 fixing some of the stock app in the same hardware ( n900 ) will make a great device Mar 31 15:08:53 bigger sensor == longer F Mar 31 15:09:08 and i think is the CSSU big atractive Mar 31 15:09:10 no, maemo 5 would be good on new hardware Mar 31 15:09:21 so deeper formfactor. You need some tricks to get that into a smartphone Mar 31 15:09:32 just up the kernel and dump closed apps Mar 31 15:09:53 MohammadAG: exactly Mar 31 15:10:06 that is my point , actual maemo need that fixed first Mar 31 15:10:14 DocScrutinizer: there is lots of space... already Mar 31 15:10:57 there is? Mar 31 15:11:51 at least 1.5mm if you remove the stupid housing and put a dust shield directly on the sensor Mar 31 15:11:59 as a rule of thumb you can say a cam module always is cube'ish Mar 31 15:12:10 http://picpaste.com/20101030_005-hRQ5Ytx1.jpg Mar 31 15:12:13 the sensor itself isn't flat on top either Mar 31 15:12:53 so my 1" sensor needs a lens protruding 1" from the sensor plane Mar 31 15:12:56 DocScrutinizer: not talking of its cubic formfactor but the thickness Mar 31 15:13:20 and not talking of 1" sensors O_o Mar 31 15:13:22 -> without tricks the "phone" is 30mm thick then Mar 31 15:13:37 tricks ? Mar 31 15:13:44 mirrors etc Mar 31 15:13:45 mugen battery you mean ? Mar 31 15:13:49 ok Mar 31 15:14:13 you can "fold" the light path Mar 31 15:15:14 _/\/\/° Mar 31 15:15:20 ;-) Mar 31 15:16:30 /_--0 Mar 31 15:16:51 /_--°/ Mar 31 15:19:32 or simply use a zoom-out lens like almost all the better compact cams do Mar 31 15:20:28 HAH Mar 31 15:21:52 use a holographic lens, a holographic picture of a (virtual) lens hoovering 2" above the device. Place that holo-gobo relatively close on top of the sensor, full area full apperture Mar 31 15:22:55 (probably a idiotic idea, mut quite intriguing) Mar 31 15:23:18 s/mut/but/. Mar 31 15:24:41 yeah, alas it's nonsense :-P Mar 31 15:25:50 won't do anything faintly similar to a real large lens Mar 31 15:26:29 slide to answer : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FJfEqygIqNA Mar 31 15:26:34 less poor materials on top of the sensor == more light... Mar 31 15:26:41 at 2:30 Mar 31 15:28:10 so what? Mar 31 15:28:45 WFM was always my answer... I never *repeat* never ever accidentially answered a call Mar 31 15:28:59 WFM ? Mar 31 15:29:09 ~WFM Mar 31 15:29:09 well, wfm is (Wired For Management Baseline) This is an Intel hardware specification that is designed to allow for compliance with easier management of desktop PCs in a networked environment. The specification calls for computers to be compatible with a pre-boot protocol that can be used to update the system or perform other management options. Also, the computer must be compatible with network/desktop management applications.. Works For Me Mar 31 15:29:16 I sometimes accidently rejected a call Mar 31 15:29:36 ~wtf wfm Mar 31 15:29:37 WFM: works for me Mar 31 15:29:45 in short^^ Mar 31 15:30:36 DocScrutinizer: with better materials (surface conditioning) the n900 could get 25% more light I would claim Mar 31 15:30:45 not sure if you happen to you guys but the glich when the device is locked happen to me Mar 31 15:30:48 time to time Mar 31 15:31:01 rotation-gllich Mar 31 15:31:09 a "mute ringtone" button/function would be way more needed (imho) than a slide-to-answer Mar 31 15:31:17 tha incremese the rate of wrong rejected calls Mar 31 15:31:23 DocScrutinizer: function is... Mar 31 15:31:34 DocScrutinizer: just turn it up side down and it silences Mar 31 15:31:49 means screen down Mar 31 15:31:52 duh, seems I forgot :-D Mar 31 15:32:18 chem|st: yes but that have a bug Mar 31 15:32:26 or not a bug but a missing feature Mar 31 15:32:31 works with alarms and calls for me Mar 31 15:32:44 E0x: what do you mean Mar 31 15:32:46 if somebody call you and you flip it it work Mar 31 15:32:52 but if the same ppl call you again Mar 31 15:32:55 the phone ring Mar 31 15:32:56 which brings me to another alternative concept to "slide to answer": shake prior to pushbutton to answer Mar 31 15:33:09 E0x: yes so? Mar 31 15:33:21 you want a block list? Mar 31 15:33:40 not but stay in muted mode till i flip back it Mar 31 15:33:52 nah, E0x complains about a feature Mar 31 15:34:03 get it yeah Mar 31 15:34:08 yes that is what i say : bug of missing feature Mar 31 15:34:12 or* Mar 31 15:34:29 actualy I *do not* want it to be silenced for good if turned Mar 31 15:34:29 I'd consider this a really bad feature if it stays muted as long as it sits there face down Mar 31 15:34:42 DocScrutinizer: +1 Mar 31 15:34:46 na Mar 31 15:35:22 if I turn of my alarm that way and someone calls me while it is turned... Mar 31 15:35:29 or the other way round... Mar 31 15:35:37 E0x: if you want that, you easily can implement via orientation aware daemon (e.g. dwimd) plus setting profile=silent Mar 31 15:35:53 or I turn it for my mum and minutes later my sister calls... Mar 31 15:36:07 DocScrutinizer: yes, i was thinking in that Mar 31 15:36:41 Right NOW Mar 31 15:36:44 :D Mar 31 15:37:01 glad to help :-D Mar 31 15:37:53 hehe i was cool in a meeting somebody calle me and i forget to change the profile of the n900 so i remember the feature Mar 31 15:37:58 and just flip it Mar 31 15:38:14 some ppl there say Wow Mar 31 15:39:36 seems N900 has much more WOWs than we usually are aware of Mar 31 15:39:39 but not was a great crowd neither Mar 31 15:39:51 DocScrutinizer: heh Mar 31 15:40:04 Wee, tornados Mar 31 15:40:20 the phone has great great potencial but no so well implementation Mar 31 15:40:34 * DocScrutinizer envisions GAN900 jump his stormchaser van Mar 31 15:40:46 heh, a classmate had his phone ring and the display didn't go on Mar 31 15:41:05 he couldn't silence it, i took it from him and flipped it Mar 31 15:41:14 the class kinda lol'd at that Mar 31 15:41:22 haha Mar 31 15:41:36 heh Mar 31 15:41:53 that was a bad and the same time good moment for the n900 Mar 31 15:42:07 and yeah, flip to silence then set silent profile Mar 31 15:42:16 that would be better than keeping it silent when it's flipped Mar 31 15:42:29 sometimes I sleep with headphones in my ears and flip the N900 Mar 31 15:43:17 E0x, tbh, I think his proximity sensor's borked Mar 31 15:43:27 I had to slide the lock switch to unlock the screen Mar 31 15:43:53 concept: when flipping->mute, check prox sensor for 5 s. If after 5s still no prox detection->switch to silent Mar 31 15:44:33 so E0x can flip and hold for 5s, then put on desk Mar 31 15:44:47 others just flip and put on desk Mar 31 15:45:57 MohammadAG flipps by accident -> also no problem, as it won't magically hoover for 5s (unless dropped from a skyscraper :-P) Mar 31 15:46:29 which muted will be the last of his problem Mar 31 15:46:44 that's what I meant :-D Mar 31 15:48:05 what about skydiving... ever thought of it... Mar 31 15:48:32 hmm, I fail to spot the problem Mar 31 15:48:38 DocScrutinizer, i just do an air flip Mar 31 15:48:42 no desks required :P Mar 31 15:49:26 I'd love to have it check for proximity changes > 3cm to mute a call or an alarm Mar 31 15:49:45 MohammadAG: rrright. So you'd have to flip back upright in less than 5s, otherwise profile=silent. Not too hard to accomplish, eh? Mar 31 15:49:58 MohammadAG: yeah it is using accelerometers not proximity Mar 31 15:50:11 yeah Mar 31 15:50:19 hmm Mar 31 15:50:31 errr, you all missed the point?? impossible Mar 31 15:50:32 I wonder if there's actually a dbus signal on flipping the device Mar 31 15:50:42 doh Mar 31 15:50:47 orientation Mar 31 15:50:48 having the jedi gesture is still a feature I'd love :( Mar 31 15:50:56 I'd make a daemon in Qt, shouldn't take 5 mins Mar 31 15:51:33 if call arrived, check orientation, if down, phone will be muted, fire a QTimer of 5000ms, if proximity is closed, set profile to silent Mar 31 15:51:34 there's all you need already out there. No need to "make a daemon" Mar 31 15:51:35 sounds easy Mar 31 15:51:39 that needs a setting in phone settings then... Mar 31 15:52:25 I still want the tap feature of the accelerometer Mar 31 15:52:38 tap feature? Mar 31 15:52:56 it can detect taps Mar 31 15:53:03 there's for sure a dbus-signal you can catch, for orientation. You can go with dbus-scripting, or exploit dwimd which is meant to do exactly such things Mar 31 15:53:04 ah ok Mar 31 15:53:04 the E66 did that Mar 31 15:53:31 DocScrutinizer said it was missing code in the driver Mar 31 15:53:46 tap/double-tap is not supported by lis302dl driver Mar 31 15:53:56 but is by the HW Mar 31 15:54:01 yep Mar 31 15:54:03 neat! Mar 31 15:54:14 someone hack it in please :P Mar 31 15:54:17 detection *can* be done in lis302 Mar 31 15:54:27 but? Mar 31 15:55:08 but there's no userland software using this new sysnode triggering an event yet Mar 31 15:55:18 there can be Mar 31 15:55:23 sure Mar 31 15:55:35 you only need an augmented driver in PK Mar 31 15:55:45 it's kinda simple to implement Mar 31 15:55:55 can you do it? Mar 31 15:56:17 where do I find HW specs of the proxi sensor? Mar 31 15:56:22 I for sure could, if I could find the mood to dive into kernel hacking Mar 31 15:56:27 why do you need those? Mar 31 15:56:31 chem|st: nowhere Mar 31 15:56:49 chem|st: completely unclear what a component this is Mar 31 15:57:10 chem|st: too smal for proper label on it Mar 31 15:57:14 is there a proper readout possible? Mar 31 15:57:27 see proximityd Mar 31 15:57:30 distance I mean? Mar 31 15:57:33 chem|st: and as you know we got no component names on schematics Mar 31 15:57:36 no Mar 31 15:57:52 it's either open or closed Mar 31 15:57:57 chem|st: nope, this is a switch Mar 31 15:58:09 has 3 contacts afaik Mar 31 15:58:13 by driver I guess Mar 31 15:58:19 no driver Mar 31 15:58:28 it's a switch Mar 31 15:58:36 ok Mar 31 15:59:32 200Hz is the rate afaik Mar 31 15:59:47 of lis302? Mar 31 15:59:51 or what? Mar 31 15:59:56 proximity Mar 31 16:00:00 nah Mar 31 16:00:41 well, it fires a "light" every 0.2s Mar 31 16:01:05 and Qt Mobility's N900 plugin states 200ms Mar 31 16:01:11 it's a hw that sends an ultrashort light strobe every 0.x seconds, and monitors the reflection. If reflection detected it pulls the signal pin low Mar 31 16:01:23 yeah, 0.2s Mar 31 16:02:35 so that's nowhere near anything like 200Hz Mar 31 16:03:08 it's more like this swich can operate at max 2.5Hz Mar 31 16:03:22 sorry, meant ms, not Hz Mar 31 16:03:47 which would be 5Hz Mar 31 16:03:54 nope Mar 31 16:04:09 1Hz == one on AND off / s Mar 31 16:04:26 oh, then it's 5/2, as you said Mar 31 16:04:37 so with one probe every 200ms the switch can do 2.5Hz, not 5 Mar 31 16:07:32 MohammadAG: got a pointer to QtMob's statement about that prox sensor? Mar 31 16:07:55 on the N900 atm, sec Mar 31 16:08:02 np Mar 31 16:08:26 thinking of getting an Archos for browsing Mar 31 16:09:13 thinking of getting a coffin filled with salt Mar 31 16:09:38 mybe I conserve a lil bit better that way Mar 31 16:10:27 hmm, it says 100Hz Mar 31 16:10:39 I'm not surprised Mar 31 16:10:48 http://qt.gitorious.org/qt-mobility/qt-mobility/blobs/master/plugins/sensors/n900/n900proximitysensor.cpp#line54 Mar 31 16:12:32 WAAAAAAAH!!! it POLLS! Mar 31 16:12:38 indeed Mar 31 16:12:57 it takes 7-17% CPU time, that's why I don't use it Mar 31 16:13:31 OK, let me state one think: QtMob IS UTTER CRAP Mar 31 16:13:54 have those morons ever heard about kevents? Mar 31 16:14:11 that's what sysfs is all about, that's what IRQs are all about Mar 31 16:14:13 or mce, since it's N900 specific anyway Mar 31 16:16:13 you FUCKING DO NOT poll peripherals that are IRQ based. The purpose of IRQs is to wake the CPU when there's something to do. ***NOT*** I repeat NOT to poll the sensor 100 times a second to find out if sth changed, and ignoring the IRQ Mar 31 16:17:14 Oh my Gosh, when even Qt guys are so stupid, how can I blame meego devels about not having any clue Mar 31 16:18:05 * DocScrutinizer is waiting for some good minded soul to prod him to open a ticket against that crap. Mar 31 16:18:22 I WON'T - I'm PISSED SINCE LONG Mar 31 16:19:05 just open the ticked and say : THIS IS A CRAP FIX IT Mar 31 16:19:05 all those "cute" sw devels who think they know everything about hw and don't need somebody like me Mar 31 16:19:30 CBA Mar 31 16:20:05 I'd submit a patch if I knew how to read those interrupts Mar 31 16:21:06 it's a think called kevents (iirc) - udev uses them a lot. You register with a sysfs node and get a callback whenever there's sth interesting happening Mar 31 16:21:24 s/think/thing/. Mar 31 16:21:57 it's a fundamental concept of sysfs Mar 31 16:22:32 funny thing is it's using FILE *fd instead of QFile Mar 31 16:23:01 there's *nothing* funny about that crap in my book Mar 31 16:24:23 http://www.signal11.us/oss/udev/ Mar 31 16:24:43 jump to monitoring interface Mar 31 16:24:43 excuse my noobish question, but this is somewhat similar to gconf's value changed signal right? Mar 31 16:24:49 i think that is what is needed Mar 31 16:27:01 >>libudev also provides a monitoring interface. The monitoring interface will report events to the application when the status of a device changes. Mar 31 16:27:39 DocScrutinizer: kqueue is teh name Mar 31 16:28:04 not sure the dif beteween kqueues and libudev Mar 31 16:28:23 http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.94.2021&rep=rep1&type=pdf Mar 31 16:28:25 libudev obviously is for udev Mar 31 16:29:07 i mean in which is more proper for n900 or maemo Mar 31 16:30:12 well, I loosely followed how FSO is doing these things (initially on Openmoko devices), so my knowledge is not from using it but only from speedreading the code there Mar 31 16:31:10 ok Mar 31 16:31:41 So I'll not bother to dig out the bookmarks for the code to use those kevents/kqueues/knotifications/whatever Mar 31 16:32:53 I know there are proper methods and tools to implement this in a non.polling way like sysfs is meant to be used Mar 31 16:33:40 I CBA anymore about crap like qtmob or sensorfw going nasty and stupid, as nobody pays me for educating so called professionals Mar 31 16:34:59 inotifylook like is the thing Mar 31 16:35:47 well time to lunch ,bbl Mar 31 16:38:33 remind me to dump QMaemo5InformationBox for my own libhildon-based class Mar 31 16:44:47 Bleh Mar 31 16:47:53 it looks like i may be unemployed from 1st of april Mar 31 16:48:15 :/ Mar 31 16:48:41 or whatever long it takes for hmrc to close company Mar 31 16:48:59 April Fools? :( Mar 31 16:49:15 no Mar 31 16:49:33 2 months ago they took some of company vans Mar 31 16:49:57 and well, it's payday and there is nothing in my account ( and everybody elses ) Mar 31 16:50:24 jacekowski: WTF?! Mar 31 16:52:54 DocScrutinizer: ? Mar 31 16:53:39 jacekowski: what shitty news Mar 31 16:54:37 not so much Mar 31 16:54:50 for last half year i was doing fuck all Mar 31 16:55:00 with some occasional jobs Mar 31 16:55:28 no i just have motivation to look for something better Mar 31 16:55:40 it's just that there is nothing within reasonable distance Mar 31 17:04:18 heh, so you decided to blow up the rocks? :-D Mar 31 17:05:00 well, i'm thinking about doing it hardcore way Mar 31 17:05:34 which is piss of my current employer as much as i can Mar 31 17:05:35 oh, the exploding freq converter wasn't good enough? Mar 31 17:06:05 DocScrutinizer: well, it wasn't my fault, i was doing everything as said by manufacturer Mar 31 17:06:11 to that point Mar 31 17:06:13 :-( Mar 31 17:06:19 err :-) Mar 31 17:06:32 (blame blindtyping) Mar 31 17:06:52 before i got to doing some clever stuff it exploded Mar 31 17:07:15 I suggest you better lift the expensive devices and sell on ebay rather than blow up Mar 31 17:07:47 yeah, i already made sure that expensive stuff is in my car Mar 31 17:07:50 better to balance your bank account which is missing quite something Mar 31 17:08:30 what? Mar 31 17:08:35 are you high? Mar 31 17:08:48 no, just not paid Mar 31 17:17:06 * DocScrutinizer starts over headdesking. EE did a great job, still users complain and whine for double sized batteries, while Qt department goes polling(!!!) a switch @ 100Hz that can and will do IRQ and can change at mac 2.5Hz Mar 31 17:18:12 * DocScrutinizer changes for wall, harder than desk, so maybe better Mar 31 17:18:51 which switch Mar 31 17:18:55 prox Mar 31 17:19:12 http://qt.gitorious.org/qt-mobility/qt-mobility/blobs/master/plugins/sensors/n900/n900proximitysensor.cpp#line54 Mar 31 17:19:18 all the time? Mar 31 17:19:30 sure, otherwise it's useless Mar 31 17:19:32 no? Mar 31 17:19:37 or just when it's lit Mar 31 17:19:49 err wut? Mar 31 17:20:12 prox always on VDD Mar 31 17:20:34 proximity sensor is useless when display isn't lit Mar 31 17:20:40 so is it polling all the time Mar 31 17:20:44 or when display is lit Mar 31 17:20:52 or phone is doing something Mar 31 17:21:06 who defines prox useless whithout display backlight? Mar 31 17:21:23 DocScrutinizer: im sure they are happy if you submit a merge request to fix it Mar 31 17:23:16 I'm sure I CBA, as this shows an elementary lack of understanding about how to implement decent power aware functions in *all* Qt(-Moob), so this would just be a start, and really... I'm unpaid, they are the "pros" Mar 31 17:23:56 i'm not paid too Mar 31 17:24:07 polling proximity sensor constantly would be harmful for battery life :) Mar 31 17:24:23 MAAAN obviously Mar 31 17:24:24 ShadowJK: nope, it IS harmful Mar 31 17:24:24 same goes for accelerometer Mar 31 17:24:31 yep Mar 31 17:24:36 exactly Mar 31 17:24:37 ShadowJK: look at the link DocScrutinizer posted Mar 31 17:24:57 same shit like in sensorfw of meego Mar 31 17:25:07 I just can't believe it Mar 31 17:25:17 lol Mar 31 17:25:43 * ShadowJK misses context of conversation again due to n900's small screensize ;D Mar 31 17:26:42 [2011-03-31 18:08:37] it takes 7-17% CPU time, that's why I don't use it Mar 31 17:26:42 19:12 * DocScrutinizer starts over headdesking. EE did a great job, still users complain and whine for double sized batteries, while Qt department goes polling(!!!) a switch @ 100Hz that can and will do IRQ and can change at mac 2.5Hz Mar 31 17:26:46 19:14 < DocScrutinizer> http://qt.gitorious.org/qt-mobility/qt-mobility/blobs/master/plugins/sensors/n900/n900proximitysensor.cpp#line54 Mar 31 17:27:34 Anyone files bugreport... Mar 31 17:27:57 anyway, even if it didn't show up in top, it'd eat batterypower... Mar 31 17:28:07 * DocScrutinizer suggests http://mg.pov.lt/maemo-irclog Mar 31 17:28:07 It's all about the wakeups :/ Mar 31 17:31:26 Browser is even more annoying to scroll anything in when it blinks white all the time Mar 31 17:33:15 * DocScrutinizer ponders about SElinux to BLAME apps that use too many timer calls Mar 31 17:35:31 like in: any app may use max 5000 timer wakeups, then gets killed Mar 31 17:35:49 maybe per day Mar 31 17:37:45 or make that 50,000, doesn't matter Mar 31 17:38:39 or make the devel come to me personally and ask for using timers, while I wave the whip Mar 31 17:38:54 morons Mar 31 17:40:00 the hardware is IRQ driven. If there *really* is any valid reason why the app can't go irq as well (i.e. callback), then this reason has to get fixed. Mar 31 17:40:17 this is why android uses wakelocks Mar 31 17:40:25 to force everything to sleep Mar 31 17:40:32 yeah, and this is why I hated android Mar 31 17:40:39 even if idle dalvik wakes up 60 times a second even when the phone is idle Mar 31 17:41:26 Robot101: you seen the rant above, about http://qt.gitorious.org/qt-mobility/qt-mobility/blobs/master/plugins/sensors/n900/n900proximitysensor.cpp#line54 ? Mar 31 17:41:46 There's that wrapper thing that forces stuff to sleep that someone wrote for SDL games :) Mar 31 17:41:47 yes Mar 31 17:42:38 waitaminute, let's see if I can tatoo a name of an ass to kick, into my cortex Mar 31 17:43:19 ** Copyright (C) 2010 Nokia Corporation and/or its subsidiary(-ies). Mar 31 17:43:23 meh, cowards Mar 31 17:44:39 http://qt.gitorious.org/qt-mobility/qt-mobility/blobs/history/master/plugins/sensors/n900/n900proximitysensor.cpp Mar 31 17:45:31 HAH! Mar 31 17:45:36 >:-( Mar 31 17:49:40 clearly we need a maemo WTF of the week Mar 31 17:53:13 MohammadAG: you suggested I should provide a patch for Qt-mob. I have NFC *if* and *what* object they provide that's _not_ such a friggin n900filebasedsensor and maybe actually is using the above mentioned mechanisms of event driven programming meant to get used for IRQ based sensors in sysfs Mar 31 17:54:04 * ShadowJK wonders if inotify works on sysfs Mar 31 17:54:18 so any patch might mean a major redesign of large parts of Qt-mob Mar 31 17:55:09 ShadowJK: (if it's actually 'inotify' and) if it's not, then the kernel *absolutely* needs a fix to make it work Mar 31 17:55:42 Well, that particular file looks fixable, since it actually calls a newReadingsAvailable thing of proximity state changes Mar 31 17:55:55 ShadowJK: I now fsodeviced (iirc, might be fsoeventsd or whatever) IS using that paradigm Mar 31 17:56:39 ShadowJK, it doesn't Mar 31 17:56:42 But it also would probably need something to know when stuff wants sensor readings or not Mar 31 17:56:43 (ionotify) Mar 31 17:56:48 yeah, this thing had to get called on kernel notifying a change in sysfs Mar 31 17:57:28 MohammadAG, know how if not through inotify? Mar 31 17:57:49 I'm rather sure it's not inotify, it's sth different that's used for sysfs Mar 31 17:58:51 ShadowJK: why should it know about somebody wanting to know about sensor readings? Mar 31 17:59:29 So that it can switch off sensors when their data isn't needed Mar 31 17:59:36 that's a problem of how you activate sensors, and usually has to be done explicitly via writing some value to some controlling sysnode Mar 31 17:59:58 though there are also designs that sense if the readout sysnode gets opened Mar 31 18:00:17 awesome: http://lwn.net/Articles/174660/ Mar 31 18:00:28 (someone bookmark that for me) Mar 31 18:00:28 related? Mar 31 18:01:11 sort of Mar 31 18:02:05 * ShadowJK should implement this for a charge4.sh ;p Mar 31 18:03:12 heh, there it is: kobject was one of the keywords Mar 31 18:07:00 ShadowJK, no idea, but I tried monitoring sysfs with ionotify and got nothing Mar 31 18:07:32 inotify is for 'normal' filesystems afaik. Can't work in sysfs Mar 31 18:09:00 kevents is the buzzword Mar 31 18:12:14 you're registering for certain kevents by providing match-criteria Mar 31 18:16:59 fd = Posix.socket( Linux.Socket.AF_NETLINK, Posix.SOCK_DGRAM, Linux.Netlink.NETLINK_KOBJECT_UEVENT ); Mar 31 18:26:54 http://git.freesmartphone.org/?p=cornucopia.git;a=blob;f=libfsoframework/fsoframework/kobjectnotifier.vala;h=b4d6aca64d67e118a58fb11f72aa084b75f50fb5;hb=00c471c86667ad3d86610296a634496d746ec287#l61 Mar 31 18:28:32 this is how FSO is dealing with change of state of a sysfs node, i.e a sensor/whatever causing an interrupt and thus changing content of /sys/*/foo/bar Mar 31 18:29:38 (don't worry, it's vala, not you gotten drunk without noticing) Mar 31 18:42:22 actually it seems you get all kevents from this netlink socket, and then you check if the parameters match the event you're interested in. Well that's not too bad as *somebody* has to do this matching anyway, and CPU is running at that moment, so it's not like your app would wake the CPU for nothing. No question it's another universe than POLLING sysfs nodes Mar 31 18:45:05 OK enough of pointers from my side. I guess everybody really interested knows enough now to fix or at least file a ticket against QtMob's n900proximitysensor.cpp Mar 31 18:51:35 or maybe against QtMob's n900filebasedsensor() implementation Mar 31 19:06:30 hi Mar 31 19:08:55 that lwn article suggests one could open() a sysfs node, and then do poll() on it? Mar 31 19:11:48 relate: http://lwn.net/Articles/193691/ Mar 31 19:11:55 i am looking for some example Mar 31 19:11:59 but without look Mar 31 19:12:07 i am asking in kernelnewbies now Mar 31 19:13:54 http://www.kernel.org/doc/Documentation/sysfs-rules.txt Mar 31 19:16:22 lol - sysfs rulez Mar 31 19:23:52 i just bought a used n900 the guy who sold it said that he left all hes stuff(cr*p) in the phone.. Mar 31 19:24:07 is this the way to go? ---> " http://wiki.maemo.org/Updating_the_tablet_firmware + http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p=849980&postcount=20 " Mar 31 19:24:18 infobot, flashing Mar 31 19:24:18 somebody said flashing was http://wiki.maemo.org/Updating_the_tablet_firmware Mar 31 19:25:35 =) Mar 31 19:25:42 yeah thats the stuff Mar 31 19:25:56 thanks MohammadAG Mar 31 19:26:06 so (flashing the) eMMC aka *VANILLA* Mar 31 19:26:31 flash both Mar 31 19:26:40 is gonna make the phone as new? Mar 31 19:26:50 yep Mar 31 19:27:13 both ? Mar 31 19:27:16 yes Mar 31 19:27:21 never flash emmc without fiasco Mar 31 19:27:37 FIASCO isnt included when flashing eMMC Mar 31 19:27:49 ? Mar 31 19:28:01 no Mar 31 19:28:13 oh Mar 31 19:28:26 ok thank you guys Mar 31 19:28:37 you're welcome :) Mar 31 19:28:56 o0-Dan-0o: make sure you got no freaking device lock code set Mar 31 19:29:17 gonna read the page and do it ^^ Mar 31 19:29:22 if he does, he can clear it after flashing Mar 31 19:29:23 as this one is NOT reset to factory default 12345, even by flashing all Mar 31 19:29:31 device lock whata.. Mar 31 19:29:46 do they refer that in the page Mar 31 19:29:48 !? Mar 31 19:30:25 you can crack it Mar 31 19:30:25 you should check in settings / lockcode *before you flash*, as maybe afterwards you might not be able to access device anymore Mar 31 19:30:38 yeah, but only if access possible Mar 31 19:30:43 true Mar 31 19:30:56 that's why I suggested to check it NOW Mar 31 19:31:06 not whine after flashing Mar 31 19:31:20 ok good point i'll check that Mar 31 19:31:32 don't could be a way for workaround in case somebody flash the device without know that Mar 31 19:31:36 code ? Mar 31 19:31:39 or is just get bricked Mar 31 19:31:40 ? Mar 31 19:33:02 there *are* ways around, but they are complicated and somewhat dangerous Mar 31 19:33:47 you should check in settings / lockcode *before you flash*, as maybe afterwards you might not be able to access device anymore Mar 31 19:33:54 hardware mod things ? Mar 31 19:33:57 if you flash it, it doesn't prompt for a code Mar 31 19:34:23 uhuh Mar 31 19:34:32 nah, you can just crack it after flashing Mar 31 19:34:44 I never tested that, but would think it's rather idiotic Mar 31 19:34:54 or before, doesn't really matter Mar 31 19:34:57 man the phone is slow as h*ll Mar 31 19:35:50 the shipped image should check if there's any non-standard lock code set and enabled, no? Mar 31 19:36:38 IF they are stupid enough to disable lock code via e.g gconf setting then I'd expect this flag to be on "check" in default image Mar 31 19:37:28 but I'd rather think both the code and the fact it's enabled or disabled are in CAL Mar 31 19:37:46 the code for sure is, so why shouldn't the flag? Mar 31 19:38:46 i'm setting language to english just to be sure we are talking about the same option Mar 31 19:40:07 settings -> devicelock(?) Mar 31 19:40:29 the padlock icon Mar 31 19:41:12 autolock = disabled Mar 31 19:41:19 yeah, that' Mar 31 19:41:21 s Mar 31 19:41:22 are we good to go Mar 31 19:41:23 =) Mar 31 19:41:24 not the point Mar 31 19:41:44 click on "change lock code" Mar 31 19:41:45 lock is not stored in cal Mar 31 19:41:49 it's just a code that's stored there Mar 31 19:41:58 and only code Mar 31 19:42:09 try to change it from 12345 to 12345 Mar 31 19:43:40 if this doesn't work, you should follow instructions of http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=524522#post524522 Mar 31 19:44:31 the shipped image should check if there's any non-standard lock code set and enabled, no? Mar 31 19:44:37 lock code chaged Mar 31 19:44:37 should, right Mar 31 19:44:43 but isn't Mar 31 19:44:47 seems its cool right Mar 31 19:44:49 12345 Mar 31 19:44:59 was the code Mar 31 19:45:02 yeah, fine Mar 31 19:45:19 i have a problem with HAM Mar 31 19:45:34 i can't install anything because it keeps thinking that i don't have enough space Mar 31 19:46:26 not having a sim card while doing all the stuff its ok right?! Mar 31 19:46:32 yes Mar 31 19:46:39 DocScrutinizer, wanna facepalm? gconftool-2 -R /apps/osso/applet/osso-applet-devicelock Mar 31 19:46:40 even better Mar 31 19:46:49 HAHAHA Mar 31 19:46:55 =) Mar 31 19:47:25 battery low though =/ have to charge it 1st Mar 31 19:47:44 yes Mar 31 19:47:49 definitely Mar 31 19:47:55 so, anybody heard about my problem? Mar 31 19:48:56 jacekowski: usually that's caused by actually too low free space Mar 31 19:49:15 not in my case Mar 31 19:49:31 rootfs 227.9M 181.4M 42.3M 81% / Mar 31 19:49:35 disable catalogs Mar 31 19:49:50 /home/opt 2.0G 1.7G 123.0M 94% /opt Mar 31 19:50:17 hmmm Mar 31 19:50:25 i started it on terminal Mar 31 19:50:26 devicelock_total_failed = 16 Mar 31 19:50:30 apt-worker: You don't have enough free space in /home Mar 31 19:50:42 what? Mar 31 19:50:43 apt-worker: free space (/home/) = 128946176 Mar 31 19:50:43 apt-worker: total space (/home/) = 2113748992 Mar 31 19:50:55 123M isn't enough Mar 31 19:50:57 why is this useful again? Mar 31 19:50:57 jacekowski, can it write to where it wants to write? Mar 31 19:51:10 is /home writable? Mar 31 19:51:14 yes Mar 31 19:51:37 disable catalogs Mar 31 19:51:49 or free space in /home Mar 31 19:52:00 how much does it need? Mar 31 19:52:15 dunno, I guess it depends on your catalogs Mar 31 19:53:07 /dev/mmcblk0p2 2.0G 1.6G 238.2M 88% /home Mar 31 19:53:12 no Mar 31 19:53:13 and it's happy now Mar 31 19:53:21 :-) Mar 31 19:53:24 it depends on debian/control of the deb you're install Mar 31 19:53:25 apt-worker is closed isn't it? Mar 31 19:53:32 Maemo-Required-Free-space Mar 31 19:53:45 duh Mar 31 19:54:00 MohammadAG: i very much doubt that opera needs more than 100M of free space i had Mar 31 19:54:01 MohammadAG, our Einstein :-D Mar 31 19:54:18 or something along those lines Mar 31 19:54:18 or HAM's being retarded, reminds me of a bug actually Mar 31 19:54:40 for unpacking it might. At least according to MohammadAG the devels packaging it claimed it needs more Mar 31 19:55:02 then it's being retarded :P Mar 31 19:55:15 jacekowski, no, it isn't Mar 31 19:55:33 new opera is cute Mar 31 19:55:42 I'm trying to get the "matrix" red pill thing back Mar 31 19:55:54 the code's there, just disabled somewhere Mar 31 19:56:06 it's all nice and sexy and fast Mar 31 19:56:10 not like firefox based crap Mar 31 19:56:21 yeah Mar 31 19:56:56 DocScrutinizer, HAM can check debian/control before downloading Mar 31 19:57:38 I like opera for one reason only Mar 31 19:57:51 they support N8x0 users and N900 users Mar 31 19:58:02 even though both platforms are dead, at least officially Mar 31 19:58:16 and their on screen keyboard is working Mar 31 19:58:44 that too Mar 31 19:58:44 good evening Maemo :) Mar 31 19:59:25 evening Venemo_N900 Mar 31 19:59:42 something bothers me DocScrutinizer Mar 31 19:59:42 enable autolock and restart mce Mar 31 20:01:34 you're bothered IF i'm really doing this? :-P no worries, I wait until you tell me what is going to happen Mar 31 20:02:09 it prompts for the code Mar 31 20:02:36 so it's actually mce requesting code at startup Mar 31 20:02:46 makes sense Mar 31 20:03:08 so inserting some stop mce into a place in init.d can override the dialog Mar 31 20:03:28 actually, flashing to recover a password might not be needed Mar 31 20:03:38 just export eMMC over USB and edit gconf Mar 31 20:05:36 sure you don't flash to recover a password, that's rather nonsensical Mar 31 20:06:00 I'd use rescue-initrd Mar 31 20:06:02 what if you're locked out of the device Mar 31 20:06:13 what if mtd support is missing Mar 31 20:06:43 :shrug: Mar 31 20:06:50 if sth is missing, add it Mar 31 20:07:31 umm Mar 31 20:07:38 where are gconf settings stored? Mar 31 20:07:47 they're in $HOME/.gconf on ubuntu Mar 31 20:07:53 in a couple of friggin files Mar 31 20:10:29 meh Mar 31 20:10:31 I'd ruthlessly flash CAL with an image of another unlocked device Mar 31 20:10:38 twimgo stores my password as plaintext Mar 31 20:10:58 whatever that is, so what? Mar 31 20:12:01 this command to mute the sound doesn't work with me: dbus-send --type=method_call --dest=org.maemo.Playback.Manager /org/maemo/Playback/Manager org.maemo.Playback.Manager.RequestMute boolean:True Mar 31 20:12:01 you're one of the "protect me from my own passwords! ROT13 FTW!" fanboys? :-P Mar 31 20:12:01 where can I find some hildon toolbar icon examples Mar 31 20:13:09 dbus-send: Expected "true" or "false" instead of "True" well of course I tried 'true' I get no error but still it does nothing Mar 31 20:14:33 a question.. to get N900 flasher to work in Windows 7 64-bit (x64) is still needed to do http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p=849980&postcount=20 Mar 31 20:14:38 so does cutetube Mar 31 20:14:38 !? Mar 31 20:16:54 DocScrutinizer, no, it's just a bit risky if someone breaks into your device :P Mar 31 20:17:58 hahaha Mar 31 20:20:36 i use win7 64bit is it still required to follow this? -> http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p=849980&postcount=20 Mar 31 20:22:52 MohammadAG: to make it clear: don't you think who/whatever breaks your system authentication security will also know how foobar-acme is rot13-crypting the password and can as easily decode it as foobar-acme can? Mar 31 20:23:10 No. Mar 31 20:23:27 Phone stealing people aregenerally not very bright. Mar 31 20:24:12 so they for sure are too stupid to copy the file where the foobar-acme pw is stored Mar 31 20:25:18 duh wait, why copy it? why not just start foobare-acme? Mar 31 20:26:59 sorry, this for sure makes no sense at all Mar 31 20:28:53 it only would make a marginal sense if you use same pw for all your auth, some of them stored in files and some require you entering them realtime Mar 31 20:32:45 64-bit users may encounter problems Mar 31 20:33:03 ..or will Mar 31 20:33:55 if they do will they "brick" the equipment Mar 31 20:33:58 XD Mar 31 20:34:57 just want to be safe Mar 31 20:36:14 has anyone used the built in maemo application to access gmail? I have the SSL settings on and it seems to be failing Mar 31 20:37:16 o0-Dan-0o: no chance to 'brick' anything Mar 31 20:38:25 just make sure your battery is 100% charged Mar 31 20:39:37 =) ok DocScrutinizer51 Mar 31 20:39:42 if flashing keeps failing, recharge while you do other things like googling Mar 31 20:40:01 but is it better to follow the workaround at the 1st try Mar 31 20:40:10 or what Mar 31 20:40:16 what do you advice Mar 31 20:40:19 ? Mar 31 20:40:24 a flat battery is the only way to 'brick' the thing Mar 31 20:41:11 if you feel uncomfortable, go for the complicated way with battery insertion etc Mar 31 20:41:47 the other 'simple' way is for experienced users Mar 31 20:42:14 how does maemo handle .install files from the browser? Mar 31 20:42:28 eerrr? Mar 31 20:42:41 i'm trying to install firefox 4, but clicking it in microb isn't launching HAM Mar 31 20:42:52 hmm Mar 31 20:42:57 i've now downloaded the .install with wget, but i'm not sure what to do now Mar 31 20:43:09 hildon-application-manager --some-parameter file.install? Mar 31 20:43:21 hehe, just click it again Mar 31 20:43:27 in browser Mar 31 20:43:29 clicked quite a few times now Mar 31 20:43:50 filemanager Mar 31 20:43:58 btw, navigating to the file:// location of the .install i fetched with wget does nothing; it clearly expects a correct mimetype Mar 31 20:43:58 or that Mar 31 20:44:05 MohammadAG: find it in filemanager? ok Mar 31 20:44:08 it needs to have the correct mimetype on the server for microB to open HAM Mar 31 20:44:19 figured. Mar 31 20:44:23 if you've got firefox or fennec installed from before you need to uninstall it Mar 31 20:44:32 ShadowJK: ok Mar 31 20:44:47 figured that might be the case, but i don't think that's the problem i have here since ham doesn't even start Mar 31 20:45:15 I installed firefox 4 via a button on the website Mar 31 20:45:25 last week Mar 31 20:45:32 it correctly opened up HAM Mar 31 20:45:35 yo Mar 31 20:45:42 sup Mar 31 20:45:54 sup broslice Mar 31 20:46:07 yo funkbrother Mar 31 20:46:07 aaah Mar 31 20:46:16 didn't think to check the downloads window Mar 31 20:46:24 Hi all. On my n900, the rss feed "http://foldvary.blogspot.com/feeds/posts/default?alt=rss" doesn't work in the builtin RSS reader. Can anyone else reproduce this behavior? Mar 31 20:46:27 the download stalled at 0% somehow Mar 31 20:46:49 naturally, clicking on it repeatedly didn't make it abandon the ongoing attempt to download it Mar 31 20:46:54 does anyone know how exactly the mmc is unmounted when the backcover of the n900 is removed? Mar 31 20:46:56 i just don't know why it didn't time out... Mar 31 20:47:01 jonaskoe1ker: trying to get people to supsribe to your feed? ;) Mar 31 20:47:13 becuse it sure doesnt unmount gracefully... Mar 31 20:47:14 Alternate blogs work in the RSS reader, and foldvary works fine on liferea@debian-testing Mar 31 20:47:24 Proteous: no, it's Fred Foldvary's Mar 31 20:47:29 I was joking :) Mar 31 20:47:32 vi___: define gracefully? Mar 31 20:47:35 Proteous: :) Mar 31 20:47:50 Proteous: care to check whether you can reproduce? Mar 31 20:48:03 a proper unmount that allows for all IO to cease Mar 31 20:48:07 jonaskoe1ker: I've never used the rss reader Mar 31 20:48:23 as oppose to an outright 'yank the card out' Mar 31 20:48:26 jonaskoe1ker: not that that is a huge hurdle, but I'm also at work Mar 31 20:48:32 Proteous: fair :) Mar 31 20:49:12 is it a HAL script? Mar 31 20:49:18 cos i cant find it Mar 31 20:49:32 and i am not sure how to work it out Mar 31 20:50:42 vi___: how should it umount more gracefully than just umount? Mar 31 20:52:19 i want to have swap on sd AND want it to unmount nicely if I take the back off. i.e. when back comes off, swapoff is run Mar 31 20:52:51 so the machine doesnt just spazz out as a huge chunk of swap suddenly disappears Mar 31 20:53:11 Swapoff may take over a minute Mar 31 20:53:28 ya follow? Mar 31 20:53:40 Sure - byt swapoff may take over a minute. Mar 31 20:54:02 thats fine by me Mar 31 20:54:20 You'd need a 'OK to unount now' signal Mar 31 20:54:27 I mean - OK to pull the card Mar 31 20:54:40 it's no timplemented this way Mar 31 20:54:45 thats all fine Mar 31 20:55:04 i just dont know how to 'hook' into the process Mar 31 20:55:16 uSD VDD powerdown is directly in kernel driver afaik Mar 31 20:55:53 so that driver is first thing you need to "hook into" Mar 31 20:56:38 anyway you want to look at ke_rcv Mar 31 20:57:13 cheers bro! Mar 31 20:57:21 maybe you get things accomplished there Mar 31 21:01:06 this "Quick zoom" in firefox 4 for mobiles; is it the same as the double-tap zoom in microb? Mar 31 21:07:22 http://tabletui.wordpress.com/2011/04/01/nokia-n0/ meheh :D Mar 31 21:10:30 * DocScrutinizer51 starts to wonder if ke_rcv might be kevent-receive Mar 31 21:17:19 umm, if he wasn't leaving that fast, I could have pointed him at ke-recv-test Mar 31 21:17:43 http://cryptome.org/eyeball/daiichi-npp/daiichi-photos.htm Mar 31 21:18:07 t - swap off (ext-)MMC Mar 31 21:18:09 o.O Mar 31 21:19:16 c - enable charging mode o.o o.O O.O Mar 31 21:22:19 Hi all Mar 31 21:22:57 o/ Mar 31 21:23:32 i try to run subversion on my n900 Mar 31 21:23:33 whatever ke-recv c does, it's not what I thought it might be Mar 31 21:24:18 I got an "segmentation fault" error. any Idea Mar 31 21:24:28 svn may not work on fat... Mar 31 21:24:36 (if this was on mydocs) Mar 31 21:24:47 hm Mar 31 21:24:58 ok thx :) Mar 31 21:25:08 MEH, /me stupid Mar 31 21:25:29 funny when you look at one device while hacking via ssh on another Mar 31 21:25:35 haha Mar 31 21:25:57 i guess thats the downside of having more than one n900 :) Mar 31 21:28:47 well, it doesn't really change anything substantial on my evaluation of ke-recv c Mar 31 21:29:08 ke-recv-test c even Mar 31 21:29:35 nox-: same error on /home/ Mar 31 21:29:44 :( Mar 31 21:29:57 ext3 partition Mar 31 21:31:03 yeah Mar 31 21:32:02 http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=70570 Mar 31 21:32:10 it's look like the pakage is brocken Mar 31 21:34:10 apparently Mar 31 21:35:05 tho one guy has a working one from extras-devel Mar 31 21:47:46 question... i'm in portugal, the image for my region is global right? Mar 31 21:49:41 o0-Dan-0o: don't know, but use global anyway Mar 31 21:50:54 XD Mar 31 21:51:04 ok Mar 31 21:51:04 everybody does Mar 31 21:51:14 in fact, i'm not clear on what the differences are Mar 31 21:51:27 apart from local stuff getting released later Mar 31 21:51:27 I give global the "works on my machine" badge of approval Mar 31 21:51:29 thanks BCMM Mar 31 21:51:32 =) Mar 31 21:51:36 which isn't a consideration now that nothing's going to be released Mar 31 21:51:41 heh Mar 31 21:52:12 (1.3.3.7 doesn't care about regions, ofc) Mar 31 21:53:24 gonna go for RX-51_2009SE_10.2010.13-2.VANILLA_PR_EMMC_MR0_ARM.bin and RX-51_2009SE_20.2010.36-2_PR_COMBINED_MR0_ARM.bin Mar 31 21:53:57 seems to be the latest stuff Mar 31 22:00:14 in the download section it says "...Always flash the eMMC image first, then the FIASCO image immediately after that..." Mar 31 22:01:56 but in the guide the example says to flash rootfs/FIASCO 1st Mar 31 22:02:05 well I got remmina looking "okay" on my phone Mar 31 22:02:30 unfortunately it employs a few functions that make it hard to translate to a hildon interface Mar 31 22:03:38 maybe i saw it wrong.. im a bit sleepy.. Mar 31 22:05:09 grr, can't figure out how to detect if I'm in the task manager Mar 31 22:05:59 hey MohammadAG Mar 31 22:06:12 a tip pls Mar 31 22:06:13 ? Mar 31 22:06:51 first flash emmc or rootfs :s Mar 31 22:07:53 i always do rootfs then eMMC Mar 31 22:07:57 without -R Mar 31 22:08:00 i think the guide says one way and in the download section says otherwise Mar 31 22:08:57 Latest Vanilla version of the eMMC content for Nokia N900 NOTE: Always flash the eMMC image first, then the FIASCO image immediately after that. Never boot up the device between flashing the FIASCO image and the eMMC image! When flashing eMMC always also flash FIASCO rootfs - NEVER boot the device between the two flashes. Mar 31 22:08:57 o0-Dan-0o: i told you both ways work. the 'complicated' way is more failsafe Mar 31 22:09:39 incredible, this had been fixed months ago Mar 31 22:10:07 aah no, it's the failsafe way Mar 31 22:10:22 indeed, order doesn't matter, but flashing eMMC first usually fails due to flasher being retarded Mar 31 22:10:33 complicated way? Mar 31 22:11:01 complicated as in 'remove battery .. didumdidum...' Mar 31 22:11:12 ~flashingt Mar 31 22:11:18 ~flashing Mar 31 22:11:18 it has been said that flashing is http://wiki.maemo.org/Updating_the_tablet_firmware Mar 31 22:16:00 o0-Dan-0o: basically if you got your shit sorted and can write BOTH commands (for flashing rootfs and emmc, this sequence) in ONE commandline like "flasher combined && flasher vanilla" and both are guaranteed to work (no typos, no wrong parameters, no -R, no wrong path to file) THEN the 'simple' command is way more convenient Mar 31 22:17:03 s/ple' command/ple' method/ Mar 31 22:17:04 DocScrutinizer51 meant: o0-Dan-0o: basically if you got your shit sorted and can write BOTH commands (for flashing rootfs and emmc, this sequence) in ONE commandline like "flasher combined && flasher vanilla" and both are guaranteed to work (no typos, no wrong parameters, no -R,... Mar 31 22:17:27 thanks infobot Mar 31 22:17:35 ~useless Mar 31 22:17:35 * infobot starts crying and hides from docscrutinizer51 in the darkest corner of the room. :( Mar 31 22:17:57 * BCMM pats infobot Mar 31 22:18:23 man i did read the guide didnt see anything about simple or complicated way Mar 31 22:19:07 o0-Dan-0o: just do it like explained at ~flashing Mar 31 22:26:31 the 'simple' way is as explained above, flashing combined first and IMMEDIATELY after flash vanilla, without booting, unplugging or anything else between both Mar 31 22:26:49 oki Mar 31 22:27:02 ty Mar 31 22:27:32 the -R stands for read? Mar 31 22:27:47 the 'complicated' but foolproof method is to start flasher vanilla, then plug in device, then insert battery to device while holding 'u' Mar 31 22:28:24 -R is Reboot and is exactly what you MUST NOT do on simple method Mar 31 22:29:13 complicated step 2: do the same procedure for combined Mar 31 22:29:40 (start flasher, plug in, insert bat) Mar 31 22:30:45 nobody actually needs -R Mar 31 22:31:56 either way having battery on the device i'll always be able to save it if it goes wrong yeah Mar 31 22:32:07 70% of failing flashings are caused by -R, as users don't understand -R *does* reboot the system Mar 31 22:32:08 ...my baby Mar 31 22:32:17 sniff.. Mar 31 22:32:22 :x Mar 31 22:32:49 you can not 'brick' the N900 by flasher oopsies Mar 31 22:33:05 hehe =) nice Mar 31 22:33:14 N900 can only do 16 bit color right? Mar 31 22:33:31 yep Mar 31 22:34:46 well, that explains why this gles render i'm using isnt working Mar 31 22:34:53 its forcing a 32 bit color setting Mar 31 22:57:57 X-51_2009SE_20.2010.36-2_PR_COMBINED_MR0_ARM.bin: %m Mar 31 22:58:34 dang even after doing the win7 x64 workaround it doesnt work Mar 31 23:00:06 %m means file not found. check your path to file Mar 31 23:00:35 doh! Mar 31 23:00:42 ur right Mar 31 23:00:59 thx Mar 31 23:01:47 im so sleepy but i want this done so i can take my baby to work tommorrow morning ^ Mar 31 23:01:52 ^^ Mar 31 23:04:17 woot Mar 31 23:04:43 DocScrutinizer, youre the * Mar 31 23:04:47 :D Mar 31 23:05:26 cr*p Mar 31 23:05:49 combined done Mar 31 23:06:08 but vanilla Mar 31 23:06:13 didnt Mar 31 23:06:32 it seems it disconnected the phone Mar 31 23:06:48 damn win x64!? Mar 31 23:06:59 what now =( Mar 31 23:07:01 see? that's why I suggest the 'complicated' way Mar 31 23:07:27 yeah Mar 31 23:07:49 now what start over? Mar 31 23:08:18 maybe do vanilla 1st Mar 31 23:08:40 you're still trying to flash it? Mar 31 23:08:48 yes, start with flashing VANILLA, the way explained in ~flashing (start flasher, plug in device, then insert battery while holding 'u') Mar 31 23:09:01 the device is connected to the usb Mar 31 23:09:24 then when done remove battery and start over same procedure, now for COMBINED Mar 31 23:09:35 but it seems its disconnected nokia simbol not there windows tryed to recognize the device but it didnt Mar 31 23:09:41 (win7 x64) Mar 31 23:09:54 that's unelated to 64 Mar 31 23:10:55 you just ran into one of teh plenty DONT's with 'simple' method, and MohammadAG never wants to understand there are any Mar 31 23:11:51 works for me Mar 31 23:11:56 that's why he laways suggests to flash combined first, as simple method doesn't work with vanilla first Mar 31 23:11:56 your method is overcomplicated Mar 31 23:12:16 it's failsafe Mar 31 23:12:24 it *always* works Mar 31 23:12:28 if o0-Dan-0o has not managed to flash it in 2h now then he should just give up Mar 31 23:12:39 haha Mar 31 23:13:39 it wont do the vanilla Mar 31 23:13:51 what is the message? Mar 31 23:13:58 show whole log to pastebin.com Mar 31 23:14:02 paste* Mar 31 23:14:15 Booting device into flash mode. Mar 31 23:14:15 Suitable USB device not found, waiting. Mar 31 23:14:38 o0-Dan-0o: which version of flasher do you have? Mar 31 23:14:48 DocScrutinizer: btw. it looks like nolo can coldflash dead rapuyama Mar 31 23:15:12 http://pastebin.com/zr1aHKyd Mar 31 23:15:27 well, that's obvious Mar 31 23:15:33 but i think now how it's doing it Mar 31 23:15:44 buehehehehehehehehe Mar 31 23:15:48 flasher v2.5.2 (Sep 24 2009)7 Mar 31 23:15:53 use flasher 3.5 Mar 31 23:15:59 that's only working flasher for n900 Mar 31 23:16:12 jacekowski: flasher 3.5 reports like that afaik Mar 31 23:16:22 the link and the .exe said it was 3.5 Mar 31 23:16:52 o0-Dan-0o: yes, don't get confused by what jacekowski tells you :-) Mar 31 23:17:13 o0-Dan-0o: are you running it as administrator? Mar 31 23:17:15 you got the correct flasher, otherwise it hadn't flashed COMBINED Mar 31 23:17:34 o0-Dan-0o: i mean right click on cmd -> run as administrator Mar 31 23:17:38 you also run it as admin otherwise it hadn't... Mar 31 23:17:51 the flasher did the COMBINED just fine Mar 31 23:18:08 so i guess it's not a permission problem Mar 31 23:18:18 right Mar 31 23:18:28 ? Mar 31 23:19:02 it's 64 bit windows problem Mar 31 23:19:14 i guess Mar 31 23:20:29 jacekowski: how that??? Mar 31 23:20:56 did run cmd as admins as expected nothing Mar 31 23:20:56 woohoo found my segfault Mar 31 23:21:07 is 64 incompatible with vanilla or what? Mar 31 23:21:11 dunno Mar 31 23:21:19 but so far everybody who had that problem had 64 bit windows Mar 31 23:21:22 yeah, but it's a 64 problem Mar 31 23:21:25 never seen it happen on 32bit Mar 31 23:22:11 meh Mar 31 23:22:50 o0-Dan-0o has attached the device while it booted, so windows has loaded some friggin driver. Mar 31 23:22:55 64bit is for people that have too much free time Mar 31 23:23:05 my feelings also jacekowski Mar 31 23:23:36 o0-Dan-0o: reboot windows, then start over again, with switched off (battery out) device plugged in in to started flasher, then insert battery Mar 31 23:23:42 hmm, what about checking what drivers are installed after flasher reboots phone Mar 31 23:24:11 obviously a thing for people with too much time Mar 31 23:24:38 i have a winxp machine Mar 31 23:24:45 I have NFC how to check *anything* on redmond virus Mar 31 23:24:51 better go start there right Mar 31 23:24:57 xp(x86) Mar 31 23:25:05 so what? Mar 31 23:25:31 are you going to flash your device now? or are we going to debug and debate windoze? Mar 31 23:25:49 i will flash Mar 31 23:31:18 "they're made of meat? meat." Mar 31 23:34:07 done x86 ftmfw Mar 31 23:34:09 ;) Mar 31 23:34:31 have to go to work at 6am Mar 31 23:34:57 1st boot takes longer than usual? Mar 31 23:35:17 i just see the dots Mar 31 23:35:22 yes Mar 31 23:35:24 a lot longer Mar 31 23:35:32 aaaaah Mar 31 23:35:33 =) Mar 31 23:35:39 it copies stuff to emmc Mar 31 23:36:16 ran like a champ in winxp x86 Mar 31 23:36:24 thanks guys Mar 31 23:36:35 cya later Mar 31 23:36:39 [[]] Mar 31 23:36:47 seems the overly complicated method worked? Mar 31 23:37:31 not realy simple as it gets "plug and play" Mar 31 23:37:49 plug > run > run > done! Mar 31 23:38:13 x64 = bad Mar 31 23:38:19 it does work like that Mar 31 23:38:23 unless you hit a problem Mar 31 23:39:11 anyway [[]] Mar 31 23:39:17 laterz Mar 31 23:39:23 =) Mar 31 23:39:25 ds3: around? Mar 31 23:47:15 pupnik, yes? Mar 31 23:49:36 ds3 just built stella for n900 but i can't find my old changelog Mar 31 23:50:05 ds3: anyway if it 'basically works' maybe you could test Mar 31 23:50:11 okay, give me link Mar 31 23:50:21 I am guessing I need to force uninstall to pick it up? Mar 31 23:50:50 well i have to see if it runs at all - catch you in a few Mar 31 23:51:21 okay Mar 31 23:53:06 * GAN900 apparently missed Martha Stewart at work today. Mar 31 23:58:34 ds3: what kinds of frames per second were you getting? Apr 01 00:00:06 didn't check but the movement speed was sufficient Apr 01 00:00:52 looking for reasonable key assignments Apr 01 00:02:21 ds3: can you reassign keys in a config file somewhere? Apr 01 00:04:59 not that I know off Apr 01 00:06:22 MohammadAG: DocScrutinizer to get that right in the end... blinking every 0.2s is 5Hz not 2.5... Apr 01 00:07:21 oh man ds3 these sounds are so awesome Apr 01 00:07:43 oh sh!z Apr 01 00:07:54 did freenode just april foolz me Apr 01 00:07:55 ? Apr 01 00:08:08 it is not switching every 200ms so the detection rate is 5hz the maximum switching rate is 2.5Hz Apr 01 00:08:32 MohammadAG: sorry to disapoint you, but blinking 5 times a second is of course 5Hz, but switch can only toggle on ech flash, so to toggle forth and back it takes two flashes aka 2.5Hz Apr 01 00:10:12 rereading my last I am confused myself... Apr 01 00:10:25 ds3 what do you want mapped for select, reset, etc Apr 01 00:10:37 it is sensing in 5Hz and can switch at 2.5Hz Apr 01 00:10:53 always assuming the figures are basically right, which I don't know and neither know how to find a spec for it. But it's irrelevant enyway Apr 01 00:12:06 sure... would love to have it a proper distance (~10cm) sensor and not just a switch Apr 01 00:15:00 pupnik: I donno what is a good combo beyond - shift to fire, arrows... the other keys should not be that critical since they are not used in teh game itself; they were just stuff to control the console Apr 01 00:15:13 ds3 i put fire on 'a' Apr 01 00:16:02 ds3 and the commands for select/reset/difficulty go across the top row of the keyboard qwertyuiop -- o and p are save and load state Apr 01 00:17:44 *burp* now where's chemist? Apr 01 00:19:01 ds3: confirmed- multikey presses work Apr 01 00:19:17 ds3 control-q to quit Apr 01 00:19:26 just when I want to suggest to him to exploit synergetic effect of prox sensor plus 84 sensitive frontcam to build his own true analog distance sensor... :-/ Apr 01 00:21:55 trip0: they for shure did fool me, with that FUGLY colored notice, that's been completely illegible on my N810 so I had to move over here Apr 01 00:23:05 pupnik: multikey works for all 2-key combos on N900 Apr 01 00:23:14 ty DocScrutinizer Apr 01 00:23:32 not so for some 3-key-chords and even worse for 4-key Apr 01 00:24:49 pupnik: that's the EE take on it. No idea what sw does to the matrix readout result Apr 01 00:25:02 i got two key combos just fine Apr 01 00:29:12 pupnik: basically all 3-key combos where 2 keys share a col and 2 (other of course) keys share a row, always create a ghost key on the intersection of the row and col with just one button on them Apr 01 00:29:33 aha! :) Apr 01 00:29:57 graphically each triangle with a upright and a horizontal line gets augmented to a rectangle by a ghostkey Apr 01 00:31:14 where those locations are in the matrix symbolic representation, not the actual kbd layout that has electrical rows and cols rather as meanders Apr 01 00:33:23 4 key combos either are creating such rectangle, then you can't know about the 4th key actually being pressed. Or they create two independent rectangles plus a few aditional side effects Apr 01 00:33:51 so you might see up to 6 or even more buttons detected for 4-key combos Apr 01 00:35:05 for 3-k it's just sufficient to know the invalid tuples like ctl-shift-j/k Apr 01 00:35:25 iirc Apr 01 00:35:29 wtf is all this n0 stuff? Apr 01 00:35:34 ~n0 Apr 01 00:35:41 eh? Apr 01 00:35:46 http://tabletui.files.wordpress.com/2011/04/promo1.jpg?w=800&h=1200 Apr 01 00:35:54 pff Apr 01 00:35:55 can't be real, but it's the second time i've heard of it Apr 01 00:36:09 cba to even look for it Apr 01 00:36:31 c'mon an URL with "promo" in it Apr 01 00:36:45 lol Apr 01 00:36:47 haha Apr 01 00:37:02 also I don't have a screen with w=800&h=1200 Apr 01 00:37:36 not bad trip0 - it has an ESC key!! Apr 01 00:37:43 so you bet I won't click that link, and I'd ask you not to post it again Apr 01 00:38:01 however, it's missing all the important keys for shell Apr 01 00:38:16 it's a wazd dream tablet render DocScrutinizer Apr 01 00:38:17 ooh, it comes w/ duke nukem! Apr 01 00:38:40 meh, that one Apr 01 00:39:26 abit too boxy for my taste Apr 01 00:39:30 I started a rant about the unbearable kbd layout yesterday, which earned me a flamewar about amoled kbds Apr 01 00:39:36 the sharp edges would be pocket-unfriendly Apr 01 00:39:45 haha Apr 01 00:39:48 oooo, sharp edges! Apr 01 00:40:22 actually, my doctor says i should avoid those after the "incident" Apr 01 00:40:27 but he has an extra column of keys between the 'p' and the 'cr' which is very good Apr 01 00:40:32 and you bet I won't click strange URLs *today* :-P Apr 01 00:40:59 gives you space for sensible positioning of ;'[]:"{} Apr 01 00:41:00 neither freenode's nor trip0's Apr 01 00:41:35 DocScrutinizer, it's still the 31st here. and i'm too lame to actually make up an april fools joke Apr 01 00:41:53 a lot of good community wishlist things there though Apr 01 00:41:59 but that link actually makes more sense in that context Apr 01 00:42:41 the battery backup for hotswap ++ Apr 01 00:42:53 wtf?? Apr 01 00:43:04 no april fool's joke? LOL! Apr 01 00:43:31 nice job wazd Apr 01 00:43:52 we checked the idea of a bupbat for hotswap maybe 3 years ago. It's simply not feasible Apr 01 00:43:55 i think such renders help get people thinking about 'yeah, that's what we want' Apr 01 00:44:07 It's feasible. Apr 01 00:44:23 If you require software support. Apr 01 00:44:27 SpeedEvil: yeah, almost as feasible as suspend-to-disk Apr 01 00:44:56 nice Apr 01 00:44:59 support from modem firmware, suuuure Apr 01 00:45:01 suspend-disk would be not quite fast enough. Apr 01 00:45:19 why does the software need to be made aware of the swap Apr 01 00:45:29 pupnik: To reduce power use. Apr 01 00:45:40 because you can't support the >2A a modem may eat Apr 01 00:45:48 ah ty Apr 01 00:45:50 pupnik: Screen off, disable modem, ... Apr 01 00:46:06 but the battery can supply the 2A Apr 01 00:46:15 not long enough Apr 01 00:46:23 ok, split battery in two Apr 01 00:46:25 :D Apr 01 00:46:34 that's absolute nonsense Apr 01 00:46:46 you need two charger controllers then Apr 01 00:46:59 yea Apr 01 00:47:20 you need two swappable batteries then Apr 01 00:47:38 you need LOTS of additional space then Apr 01 00:47:48 both with 1250mAh :D Apr 01 00:48:25 you need discharge management then, as you don't want both to deplete same time Apr 01 00:48:28 device slightly larget than n810 :0 Apr 01 00:48:30 right Apr 01 00:49:10 honestly you need something better to send me on a april fool's joke Apr 01 00:49:20 i'm not joking Apr 01 00:49:32 so you got hoaxed Apr 01 00:49:47 no Apr 01 00:49:58 these are just sketches of devices we'd like to see Apr 01 00:50:04 since we can't force nokia to make em Apr 01 00:50:06 uhuh Apr 01 00:50:07 we show them pixs Apr 01 00:50:23 got it? Apr 01 00:50:31 plus wazd is a talented graphics guy Apr 01 00:50:46 nice sense of color, design Apr 01 00:50:54 I want to see a device I can roll up, with a 21" screen and a battery that never discharges and can start my car Apr 01 00:50:59 so they are pretty in that right Apr 01 00:51:15 why are you so dismissive of the work of others Apr 01 00:51:19 DocScrutinizer: Also that you can run your car over. Apr 01 00:51:37 (and have it still work) Apr 01 00:51:42 (the device, not the car) Apr 01 00:51:51 pupnik: I'm just angry on nonsense Apr 01 00:52:26 my phone can start my car Apr 01 00:52:26 i think you're not understanding the motivation behind it Apr 01 00:52:51 exactly, I'm missing the point of it Apr 01 00:53:15 except wazd mentioned yesterday "prepare for apr 1.!" Apr 01 00:53:41 Some companies add to confusion by actually launching stuff on Apr 1. Apr 01 00:53:57 marketing fail Apr 01 00:53:57 ... and it is to show off some design ideas Apr 01 00:54:09 SpeedEvil, I have an exam on apr 1... Apr 01 00:54:11 http://www.spacex.com/ - I hope for something fun on the 5th. Apr 01 00:54:11 but to you, design means little. that's ok. Apr 01 00:54:23 I've seen design ideas a metric ton on thin paper Apr 01 00:54:51 The problem is that most of the 'design ideas' have no idea about the actual cost. Apr 01 00:54:55 most of them not worth the poor trees that had to die for paper and pencil Apr 01 00:55:05 For example 'hardware keyboard over AMOLED layer...' Apr 01 00:55:18 yeah Apr 01 00:55:20 This adds perhaps at best 2-3mm to your keyboard. Apr 01 00:55:23 funny to me, how wazd makes sketches that look much more beautiful than anything that comes out of asia Apr 01 00:55:40 Makes the device perhaps 30-40g heavier. Apr 01 00:55:58 and way more flimsy Apr 01 00:56:04 for the keys Apr 01 00:56:07 Probably, yes. Apr 01 00:56:31 Still my keyboard is bestest :P Apr 01 00:56:32 And optically, it doesn't really work unless you use gradient imaging or fibre lenses. Apr 01 00:57:30 Fibre lenses seem in principle possible, but they are not going to be cheap for the first 10 million units. Apr 01 00:57:40 pupnik: maybe that's because out of Asia there are real designs that you can actually use somehow Apr 01 00:58:32 sometimes Apr 01 00:58:34 DocScrutinizer: yes, LG made one phone designed by a european. the LG-GD880 mini Apr 01 00:58:38 it looks fantastic Apr 01 00:59:21 there's a significant design culture mis-alignment here Apr 01 00:59:36 and probably even *can get produced* Apr 01 00:59:36 the new chinese bullet train is a good example Apr 01 01:03:41 let's start simple: the design ^^^ looks good partially because of the straight lines. stright lines mean sharp corners and edges. Sharp edges are a nogo for such a device. Nice design is easy as long as it doesn't consider any usability and manufacturing requirements Apr 01 01:04:27 see hotswap bupbat Apr 01 01:04:39 ETX Apr 01 01:05:59 I'd like a device with shiny top notch SOFTWARE Apr 01 01:06:18 the hardware is just good enough, when used properly Apr 01 01:06:52 More RAM is basically the only urgent change. Apr 01 01:07:22 but I don't want a device with mega battery, to allow Qt devels to votch with elementary things like POLLING shit Apr 01 01:08:25 HELL hotswap batttery - WTF!? I just do NOT want to have to swap battery ever Apr 01 01:09:13 There are existing pre-packed solutions that pack 14Wh in very small packages. All it needs is for the n900 to accept sugar-cubes. Apr 01 01:11:45 so give me SOFTWARE that makes use of the capability of N900 hw to standby for 9 days Apr 01 01:12:35 instead of friggin fubar qt libs tat eat w bats a day and then come with nonsense like hotswap Apr 01 01:14:52 I'm honestly pissed about sw 'devels' that mess up each and every system they cn get hold of, just to start whining for better hw that allows them to mess up even more Apr 01 01:16:15 it's called `progress' Apr 01 01:16:19 :P Apr 01 01:17:50 yeah, the redmond borne definition of progress Apr 01 01:18:06 just like each kde version tends to be as bloated to just run well enough on that time's `current' hw :P Apr 01 01:19:05 don't get me started about KDE4 Apr 01 01:37:57 ds3: http://www.fileserve.com/file/5ZVz2Cq Apr 01 01:38:45 should have a more readable/usable config menu now Apr 01 01:39:00 wtf it is 44K? Apr 01 01:39:16 n/m that isn't a wget link Apr 01 01:39:33 wut? Apr 01 01:40:59 ds3: i'm guessing a few of those 2600 games need diagonal joystick Apr 01 01:41:34 I am loosing patience... if the download doesn't start going in the next 10 seconds, I'll find a site for you to upload =) Apr 01 01:42:29 hehehe Apr 01 01:42:40 it's 1.5MB Apr 01 01:42:53 he said *start* Apr 01 01:43:01 not finish Apr 01 01:43:05 it is done Apr 01 01:43:44 pupnik: I'd happily host a humble 1.5MB for you Apr 01 01:43:53 I got places I can host it Apr 01 01:44:03 installing it... bbiab Apr 01 01:44:37 it's pretty hardcore to play 2600 games Apr 01 01:44:53 they are the only decent games Apr 01 01:45:01 :) Apr 01 01:45:18 just tried a couple, some are nice and tough, reflex wise Apr 01 01:45:29 and the sounds, the sounds are glorious :D Apr 01 01:46:15 in battlezone i seem to do best driving in reverse most of the time Apr 01 01:46:43 doh, it is a .tgz, no wonder dpkg didn't work ;) Apr 01 01:52:06 Nice Apr 01 01:52:12 key cording seems to work Apr 01 01:58:09 can someone help me brute force a debian repo? :) Apr 01 02:01:42 ++ ds3 Apr 01 02:01:58 timeless_w7ip: what does that mean? Apr 01 02:03:14 http://ppa.launchpad.net/ubuntu-mozilla-daily/ppa/ubuntu/pool/main/f/firefox/ Apr 01 02:03:29 i want to know which .deb "is" firefox 4.0 for i386 Apr 01 02:04:21 err sorry Apr 01 02:04:22 http://ppa.launchpad.net/ubuntu-mozilla-daily/ppa/ubuntu/pool/main/f/firefox-4.0/ Apr 01 02:05:33 i guess [ ] firefox-4.0_4.0~b13~hg20110321r63449+nobinonly-0ubuntu1~umd1~lucid_i386.deb 22-Mar-2011 07:35 14M? Apr 01 02:13:02 ds3: how is the sound playback for you? Apr 01 02:15:42 i just lost keyboard control and got touchscreen control instead Apr 01 02:16:38 oh that's player 2 Apr 01 02:34:06 in role playing games, the currency is never fiat paper ;) Apr 01 02:36:05 pupnik: there are surely a number which use fiat money, i need to think on one that used fiat paper Apr 01 02:39:40 find an exception and you prove the rule ;) **** ENDING LOGGING AT Fri Apr 01 02:59:58 2011