**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Tue Aug 16 02:59:57 2011
Aug 16 03:05:00 <pigeon> is khweeteur still being maintained/developed?
Aug 16 03:11:28 <SpeedEvil> khertan_: 
Aug 16 03:13:32 <Ken-Young> Does anyone know if it is possible for a Maemo 5 app to know if its menu is currently visible (pulled down)?
Aug 16 05:34:12 <Guest56670> good morning
Aug 16 05:34:22 <Guest56670> fuu
Aug 16 06:17:23 <antman8969> so when is the voting supposed to start for the competition!?
Aug 16 06:28:33 <frals> http://www.engadget.com/2011/08/16/nokias-n9-coming-to-kazakhstan-on-september-9th-gets-its-own-b/
Aug 16 06:28:46 <frals> "A tipster sent us flyer from Texhodom advertising the Swedish company's foray into Linux-powered smartphones as landing on September 9th for 99,990 Kazakh tenges, or about $679."
Aug 16 06:28:49 <frals> <3 engadget
Aug 16 06:32:43 <SpeedEvil> #4 phone maker in all of kazakstan?
Aug 16 07:02:39 <jacekowski> have you heard that google bought motorla
Aug 16 07:02:42 <jacekowski> motorola*
Aug 16 07:04:00 <Termana> jacekowski, since that seems directed at no one in particular, I'll answer yes. It's splashed everywhere, so it's hard for someone that's here not to know.
Aug 16 07:09:09 <rly> Can I ask a question about the n900 here?
Aug 16 07:10:21 <Sicelo> yeah
Aug 16 07:10:23 <rly> I setup a wireless adhoc network on my laptop (iwlist scan returns 70/70 as the signal), but the n900 doesn't pick up the signal. Other access points are detected, however.
Aug 16 07:10:50 <rly> I have no idea what might cause that other than that Ubuntu might not implement some protocol correctly.
Aug 16 07:10:56 <rly> (which I doubt)
Aug 16 07:11:17 <rly> (since iwlist scan uses the same standard under the hood, AFAIK)
Aug 16 07:12:04 <dm8tbr> rly: wrong channel?
Aug 16 07:12:32 <rly> dm8tbr: it is an n900 problem.
Aug 16 07:12:48 <rly> dm8tbr: or rather, I think it is. 
Aug 16 07:13:13 <rly> dm8tbr: or do you mean wrong wireless channel?
Aug 16 07:13:34 <rly> dm8tbr: in that case, I would expect it to rotate through all the channels.
Aug 16 07:16:23 <dm8tbr> rly: you might have a reg-dom mismatch
Aug 16 07:17:03 <dm8tbr> rly: if your n900 is in 'international' and your AP e.g. europe or japan regdom and on channel 12/13/14 then it won't work.
Aug 16 07:17:55 <rly> dm8tbr: how can I see that?
Aug 16 07:18:08 <jiero> wow, after applied battery patch, my N900 have average CPU time down 70% when standby.
Aug 16 07:18:21 <rly> dm8tbr: I did not switch continents myself.
Aug 16 07:18:25 <dm8tbr> rly: check the channels
Aug 16 07:18:52 <rly> dm8tbr: my laptop sends at channel 1.
Aug 16 07:19:42 <rly> dm8tbr: I don't know where the n900 is listening. 
Aug 16 07:20:44 <dm8tbr> rly: use 'osso-product-info' in the terminal
Aug 16 07:20:48 <dm8tbr> that should tell you
Aug 16 07:21:47 <rly> Can I also disable the touch feedback without rooting it?
Aug 16 07:22:52 <robbiethe1st> Yes, should be in preferences. But, um... 'rooting' the N900 isn't exactly an issue, or a problem - you just install a nokia-provided package(IIRC) and you've got a root shell when you want it
Aug 16 07:22:56 <rly> Is there also a TAB button on the n900?
Aug 16 07:23:07 <rly> (To get tab completion.)
Aug 16 07:23:44 <robbiethe1st> No. At least, not by default. The terminal has a tab soft-button, but for other applications you'd need to edit the keyboard layout
Aug 16 07:23:44 <rly> Found it
Aug 16 07:23:46 <jaska> ctrl-i works
Aug 16 07:23:54 <jaska> atleast for terminal
Aug 16 07:24:01 <rly> Yes, there is a soft button. 
Aug 16 07:24:05 <rly> That program does not exist. 
Aug 16 07:24:35 <rly> Yes, but I first need to get wireless to work on the thing.
Aug 16 07:25:32 <robbiethe1st> Uh, tap the top bar, tap 'Internet connection', tap your chosen wireless AP and you're done.
Aug 16 07:25:49 <robbiethe1st> It'll then ask you to enter your password if the AP's locked, or just connect otherwisde
Aug 16 07:25:54 <rly> robbiethe1st: the problem is that I don' t see the AP.
Aug 16 07:26:00 <rly> robbiethe1st: (my laptop)
Aug 16 07:26:04 <rly> robbiethe1st: I do see others.
Aug 16 07:26:10 <robbiethe1st> Then you
Aug 16 07:26:36 <dm8tbr> rly: checked the command?
Aug 16 07:26:55 <robbiethe1st> You've misconfigured it on the laptop side, more than likely
Aug 16 07:27:13 <rly> dm8tbr: I don't have that command. 
Aug 16 07:27:15 <robbiethe1st> My N900 shows both APs and ad-hoc networks in the list
Aug 16 07:27:30 <rly> dm8tbr: I do have a whole list which starts with osso
Aug 16 07:27:39 <rly> dm8tbr: but not containing product
Aug 16 07:28:35 <robbiethe1st> Erm, what command are you looking for?
Aug 16 07:28:35 <dm8tbr> 'osso-product-info'
Aug 16 07:28:56 <rly> dm8tbr: I only have commands separated by _. 
Aug 16 07:29:05 <dm8tbr> that reports for mine: OSSO_PRODUCT_WLAN_CHANNEL='fcc/us'
Aug 16 07:29:06 <rly> dm8tbr: and osso_product_info does not exist.
Aug 16 07:29:25 <robbiethe1st> Erm, what are you trying to get from this command?
Aug 16 07:30:03 <rly> robbiethe1st: dm8tbr wanted to see the output.
Aug 16 07:30:11 <Sicelo> not underscores (_) rly , but dash (-)
Aug 16 07:30:26 <robbiethe1st> Oh, hm. rly, go into the 'settings' app and click 'about product';
Aug 16 07:30:27 <rly> Sicelo: I know, but I don't have those commands listed with tab-completion.
Aug 16 07:30:34 <robbiethe1st> Tell us the version string
Aug 16 07:30:50 <robbiethe1st> More than likely you have an old version of the OS, which may not have those commands handy
Aug 16 07:31:28 <rly> I found the command now.
Aug 16 07:31:44 <rly> No idea why it didn't get listed/I missed it before.
Aug 16 07:32:02 <robbiethe1st> huh
Aug 16 07:32:18 <rly> dm8tbr: for me it says the same, but I am in the EU.
Aug 16 07:33:02 <rly> dm8tbr: the product region is for my country.
Aug 16 07:33:13 <rly> dm8tbr: (the same as where the laptop comes from)
Aug 16 07:33:49 <dm8tbr> rly: if it says 'fcc/us' then the available wifi channels for your n900 are limited to those permitted in the US.
Aug 16 07:34:06 <dm8tbr> which is 1-11
Aug 16 07:34:19 <rly> dm8tbr: but the laptop reports 1.
Aug 16 07:34:53 <rly> I have to go, but I will be back.
Aug 16 07:35:05 <dm8tbr> rly: did other devices connect successfully?
Aug 16 07:59:47 <rly> dm8tbr: I don't have other devices here to test.
Aug 16 08:00:03 <rly> Is there wireless reception any good on the n900, btw?
Aug 16 08:00:28 <rly> I know that some other phones are pretty awful.
Aug 16 08:00:39 <rly> (it is not the problem this time, obviously)
Aug 16 08:01:24 <dm8tbr> rly: I'd recommend to double check your setup on your laptop. preferably use a second device and see if it connects
Aug 16 08:01:42 <robbiethe1st> ^^
Aug 16 08:02:00 <rly> dm8tbr: iwlist scan does list it (isn't that one way of checking too?)
Aug 16 08:02:24 <flailingmonkey> does the connect to a hidden wifi option work for ad-hoc?
Aug 16 08:08:25 <rly> No active IBSS STAs - trying to scan for other IBSS networks with same SSID
Aug 16 08:08:31 <rly> What does that mean?
Aug 16 08:21:21 <Sicelo> maybe try to set up the ad-hoc network on your N900 instead, and have the laptop connect to it
Aug 16 08:22:26 <Sicelo> less likely to go wrong... iwconfig and similar commands aren't the easiest, at least for me
Aug 16 08:32:28 <moxy> Hi
Aug 16 08:32:45 <rly> Sicelo: I don't have a wireless AP. I try to setup one via my laptop.
Aug 16 08:33:06 <rly> Sicelo: when I select the 5GHz band it is listed on my n900.
Aug 16 08:33:20 <rly> Sicelo: it also says it is connected, but no bits go through it.
Aug 16 08:35:49 <rly> now I got some bits
Aug 16 08:35:54 <Sicelo> what i mean is.. make a new Setting/Connection on your N900, set the Mode to Ad-Hoc, giving an IP address, etc.. then from Status, connect to it. from your laptop you should then be able to see the N900 
Aug 16 08:36:00 <Sicelo> ah, ok :)
Aug 16 08:36:27 <rly> Let's hope I can get access to the manual now, so I can get an idea of how this thing works :)
Aug 16 08:36:43 <Sicelo> by the way, some connection manager on laptop, eg, Gnome-Network-Manager could make things easy
Aug 16 08:36:59 <rly> Sicelo: I used that, but I needed the 5Ghz band
Aug 16 08:37:05 <rly> Sicelo: on 2.4 it didn't work
Aug 16 08:37:15 <rly> Sicelo: by default it is auto, which oddly also did not work
Aug 16 08:38:11 <rly> Is there also a zoom button gesture like on the IPhone?
Aug 16 08:40:26 <flailingmonkey> N900 definitely doesn't support 5GHz band
Aug 16 08:40:38 <psycho_oreos> 5GHz band, wtf.. N900 is only equipped with 802.11b/g wireless chipset which can only do 2.4GHz. I don't know where you're coming from with 5GHz unless you hacked the radio
Aug 16 08:40:53 <psycho_oreos> either that or you've been smoking too much crack :P
Aug 16 08:41:02 <flailingmonkey> who knows
Aug 16 08:41:03 <ruskie> http://www.theregister.co.uk/2011/08/16/cookie_respawning_secrets_revealed/
Aug 16 08:43:34 <rly> flailingmonkey: well, I did select it in the Gnome menu.
Aug 16 08:44:40 <rly> flailingmonkey: I just checked it and it says Band A (5GHz)
Aug 16 08:45:08 <flailingmonkey> it's possible it didn't actually do what the gnome network manager was trying to do
Aug 16 08:45:31 <psycho_oreos> N900 doesn't come with a gnome UI, unless you're referring to your laptop or some other computer. N900 as said by at least 2 people now that it does not support 5GHz
Aug 16 08:45:44 <rly> psycho_oreos: I was referring to my laptop.
Aug 16 08:46:07 <rly> psycho_oreos: the n900 did not see the connection when the gnome gui was set to 2.4.
Aug 16 08:46:19 <rly> I certainly believe that gnome has bugs.
Aug 16 08:46:22 <psycho_oreos> and if you're talking about your laptop/computer, its your laptop that can't support 802.11b/g which means you don't have much other choice apart from buying a wireless chipset capable of communicating on 2.4GHz ISM band
Aug 16 08:46:39 <psycho_oreos> hmm
Aug 16 08:47:13 <psycho_oreos> its not particularly hard to setup wireless connection via CLI either
Aug 16 08:48:09 <rly> I am happy that it works. At this point I don't particularly care anymore as to how.
Aug 16 08:48:17 <rly> I will care about that later.
Aug 16 08:50:24 <psycho_oreos> then its a bug that's not related to maemo/N900 :p
Aug 16 08:51:48 <rly> psycho_oreos: are you just another user or are you affiliated with nokia?
Aug 16 08:52:08 <psycho_oreos> rly, just another user
Aug 16 08:52:26 <rly> psycho_oreos: but an experienced one, I suppose?
Aug 16 08:52:51 <psycho_oreos> I hardly think any nokia affiliated personnels would be keen on still providing support to their own abandoned `pet' project
Aug 16 08:53:21 <rly> I don't get why they killed it. 
Aug 16 08:53:25 <psycho_oreos> rly, can't say I'm really experienced, but enough experience. That plus wireless networking is somewhat my forte
Aug 16 08:53:49 <rly> I have only heard positive stories about the device from my environment.
Aug 16 08:54:14 <jacekowski> rly: there was not much software for N900
Aug 16 08:54:26 <jacekowski> rly: device was fine
Aug 16 08:54:30 <jacekowski> rly: software not so much 
Aug 16 08:54:59 <psycho_oreos> because it gained little attraction and didn't give them that much turnover. You could probably say that its kinda like how bugatti veyron was made. Each device made was like an extra cost for them, obviously they never made maemo completely mainstream as a phone device and N900 being the only one capable of cellular connectivity, launched well after iphone made its killings and now being abandoned probably due to poor sales
Aug 16 08:55:52 <psycho_oreos> N900 is flexible, no doubt. The only thing that turned people away was the fact that it looked rather bulky and as jacekowski the software was also a fairly big issue (it can be somewhat user unfriendly)
Aug 16 08:56:50 <rly> Nowadays you can put Android on it, right? 
Aug 16 08:57:01 <rly> Not that I plan to do that immediately.
Aug 16 08:57:05 <psycho_oreos> its called nitdroid, and its not well developed
Aug 16 08:57:50 <Venemo_N950> hey rly, seems that I'm late to the discussion, what is this all about?
Aug 16 08:57:52 <psycho_oreos> the basics I believe works but you shouldn't expect that nitdroid can fully turn your N900 into a complete android phone. It still has missing key functionalities that regular android phones would have
Aug 16 08:58:04 <kerio> no u
Aug 16 08:58:06 <rly> Venemo_N950: nothing terribly important. 
Aug 16 08:58:09 <jacekowski> rly: no rapuyama support in android
Aug 16 08:58:10 <kerio> and patches welcome
Aug 16 08:58:17 <kerio> and gimme your N950
Aug 16 08:58:22 <psycho_oreos> lol
Aug 16 08:58:31 <kerio> i want one :(
Aug 16 08:58:39 <psycho_oreos> don't we all :p
Aug 16 08:58:44 <rly> Is there anything else besides blueman on Ubuntu?
Aug 16 08:59:02 <rly> I get some traceback (aren't dynamic languages great?).
Aug 16 08:59:11 <rly> (for setting up Bluetooth)
Aug 16 08:59:49 <psycho_oreos> heh I only have xubuntu (ancient copy, 9.04) on me desktop but the PSU died ages ago and I haven't replaced it. So I'm still stuck with me archlinux lappy
Aug 16 08:59:58 <kerio> arch ._.
Aug 16 09:00:01 <rly> Stuck or happy?
Aug 16 09:00:11 <jacekowski> rly: and with no rapuyama support there is no phone
Aug 16 09:00:15 <psycho_oreos> I had some bluetooth software going before but it never worked with my BH-905 headset
Aug 16 09:00:18 <jacekowski> rly: and without phone there is no interwebs
Aug 16 09:00:26 <kerio> arch is l33tspeak for "i can't install debian"
Aug 16 09:00:31 <rly> What is rapuyama?
Aug 16 09:00:41 <jacekowski> modem
Aug 16 09:00:43 <psycho_oreos> stuck, not that I'm keen on making a living with a laptop and dead weight desktops sitting on the table.
Aug 16 09:00:51 <jacekowski> thing that connects n900 to outside world
Aug 16 09:01:02 <rly> jacekowski: heh, I know what a modem is.
Aug 16 09:01:08 <psycho_oreos> arch is for those who think debian = old man
Aug 16 09:01:12 <psycho_oreos> rather frail
Aug 16 09:01:22 <jacekowski> rly: so if you install android you only have wifi
Aug 16 09:01:31 <Venemo_N950> kerio, you'd have to kill someone to get it.
Aug 16 09:01:59 <rly> jacekowski: in theory you can call via wifi via skype to anywhere.
Aug 16 09:02:10 <rly> jacekowski: no idea whether it actually works...
Aug 16 09:02:16 <psycho_oreos> or even voip (if that works)
Aug 16 09:02:26 <jacekowski> yeah, but wifi isn't everywhere
Aug 16 09:02:42 <psycho_oreos> and neither is that freely accessible either :)
Aug 16 09:03:00 <jacekowski> so you may just as well buy N8x0
Aug 16 09:03:04 <rly> It would be so much better if it was.
Aug 16 09:03:24 <psycho_oreos> or you get guaranteed bandwidth (i.e. in a busy area like airport with heavy internet users, you're going to be lagging when talking to someone else over wifi)
Aug 16 09:04:22 <psycho_oreos> though in the second and third case scenario, there are workarounds (rather evil workarounds for third case)
Aug 16 09:05:09 <rly> psycho_oreos: like what?
Aug 16 09:05:59 <psycho_oreos> rly, http://www.knownokia.ca/2010/09/quiet-response-to-n900-laughs.html
Aug 16 09:08:12 <rly> psycho_oreos: can I also connect to a WPA2 AP?
Aug 16 09:08:33 <rly> psycho_oreos: in the menu (on the n900) there is no such option.
Aug 16 09:08:42 <rly> (just WEP or nothing)
Aug 16 09:08:51 <Venemo_N950> yes you can
Aug 16 09:08:53 <psycho_oreos> rly, normally? yes if you have all the right credentials
Aug 16 09:09:24 <rly> How? I am in the menu for setting up a connection.
Aug 16 09:10:31 <rly> Perhaps I need a software upgrade to do that?
Aug 16 09:10:36 <psycho_oreos> there should be at least 3 options excluding WEP and including None
Aug 16 09:10:57 <psycho_oreos> yeah if you can only see two choices you probably am running ancient firmware on your N900
Aug 16 09:11:23 <rly> Likely. Where can I get the newest (or rather something you recommend)?
Aug 16 09:11:32 <psycho_oreos> ~flash
Aug 16 09:11:32 <infobot> from memory, maemo-flashing is http://wiki.maemo.org/Updating_the_tablet_firmware
Aug 16 09:11:48 <psycho_oreos> its all well explained there ^ ^
Aug 16 09:12:05 <rly> Is this a 'tablet'?
Aug 16 09:12:19 <psycho_oreos> yes
Aug 16 09:12:36 <rly> These descriptions assume that you are using the latest official images. This page is not exactly a step-by-step instruction, so better read the whole page prior to starting the flashing process.
Aug 16 09:12:44 <rly> This assumption already does not hold in my case.
Aug 16 09:13:08 <psycho_oreos> well nothing won't help you if you couldn't adapt
Aug 16 09:13:13 <rly> But I would hope that the flashing instructions did not change. 
Aug 16 09:13:22 <rly> I flashed other devices before.
Aug 16 09:13:55 <rly> If other people understood those instructions, I should be able too. Thanks.
Aug 16 09:14:06 <psycho_oreos> if you flashed other NIT devices, N900 should be a piece of cake
Aug 16 09:15:24 <Sicelo> not difficult at all. flashed mine first evening i had it, without any problems
Aug 16 09:16:14 <rly> What does NIT stand for?
Aug 16 09:16:31 <psycho_oreos> I flashed mine when I bricked mine (I think it was 2 weeks from when I bought it). Extremely easy if you're familiar with CLI environment
Aug 16 09:16:37 <psycho_oreos> Nokia Internet Tablet
Aug 16 09:16:44 <Sicelo> Nokia Internet Tablet
Aug 16 09:17:02 <rly> Can I also backup via USB?
Aug 16 09:17:10 <rly> Instead of another SD card?
Aug 16 09:17:21 <psycho_oreos> define backup
Aug 16 09:17:29 <rly> There is a 'Backup' application. 
Aug 16 09:17:56 <jiero> Nokia Internet Tablet ？ Can I have it?
Aug 16 09:18:02 <rly> Ok, I think I will just first read the manual and then do something more complicated.
Aug 16 09:18:03 <psycho_oreos> yeah its osso-backup, which is rather limited in its own ways and from memory it stores backed up data into your eMMC
Aug 16 09:18:13 <psycho_oreos> jiero, you already own one :p
Aug 16 09:18:38 <jiero> psycho_oreos: :)b I want a larger one.
Aug 16 09:19:44 <psycho_oreos> there's another way, which is to use robbiethe1st's backupmenu. It can do a complete backup and unlike osso-backup, the whole restoration could take place offline and you retain all your previously installed programs. osso-backup requires HAM later on if you want to restore your previously installed programs
Aug 16 09:20:23 <psycho_oreos> jiero, well I don't personally own any other NIT devices, There are 3 other generations of NIT apart from N950 (which is not publicly available) and N9 (which is not released)
Aug 16 09:20:53 <psycho_oreos> probably one of the other 3 might be bigger than N900 (but slightly I bet)
Aug 16 09:21:18 <rly> You lose all warranty just because you add WPA2 support?
Aug 16 09:21:56 <psycho_oreos> you don't need to add WPA2 support, WPA option under latest firmware works with with WPA and WPA2
Aug 16 09:22:20 <rly> psycho_oreos: that's what I meant by 'add'.
Aug 16 09:22:36 <rly> psycho_oreos: I don't have the latest firmware.
Aug 16 09:22:37 <jiero> psycho_oreos:  Looking forward a new Nokia Tablet ;D to compete with iPads.
Aug 16 09:22:48 <Arkenoi> wpa works just fine on n900 (though wep+peap does not)
Aug 16 09:22:49 <rly> I was referring to http://tablets-dev.nokia.com/nokia_N900.php
Aug 16 09:24:00 <psycho_oreos> rly, then you should reflash your device to the latest firmware, and no I don't quite understand when you said you were referring to the link which contains the firmwares
Aug 16 09:24:27 <psycho_oreos> jiero, bleh and it won't even be running maemo
Aug 16 09:25:30 <jiero> psycho_oreos: Maybe Maemo 6?Meego harmattan?
Aug 16 09:26:02 <psycho_oreos> jiero, only time will tell
Aug 16 09:27:15 <ruskie> http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/news/2011/08/mad-about-metered-billing-they-were-in-1886-too.ars
Aug 16 09:29:02 <rly> If I go to the url where the usermanual is supposed to be, it is not there anymore. That's also pretty bad.
Aug 16 09:29:17 <rly> Instead it redirects to swipe.nokia.com
Aug 16 09:30:24 <psycho_oreos> goes to show how nokia treats its own maemo fans
Aug 16 10:00:28 <lupine_85> shiny shiny new N900 :)
Aug 16 10:01:12 <Cor-Ai> give!
Aug 16 10:01:20 <lupine_85> noes, it is mine
Aug 16 10:01:27 <lupine_85> and I had to fight nokia tooth and nail to get it
Aug 16 10:01:33 <Cor-Ai> but i whant it!
Aug 16 10:01:43 <Cor-Ai> haha
Aug 16 10:02:36 <lupine_85> :)
Aug 16 10:02:46 * lupine_85 buys some screen protectors
Aug 16 10:03:10 <lupine_85> the one that was replaced on warranty was *pretty scratched*
Aug 16 10:03:13 <psycho_oreos> what's so good about a shiny N900... when you have two N900 in your hands? :)
Aug 16 10:03:42 <lcuk> having 2 n900s in your hands which have apps working together is better
Aug 16 10:03:58 <lupine_85> anyway, I am now convinced that nokia have a warehouse filled with these things and they're just trying to fob people off with E7/N8 so they don't have to support them in their bright new future
Aug 16 10:04:10 <lupine_85> it's that, or *really* lousy stock control
Aug 16 10:04:51 <psycho_oreos> lcuk, well nothing is perfect when maemo itself is already flaky on fremantle to begin with. At least having the actual physical hardware is good enough :)
Aug 16 10:05:23 <lupine_85> eh, the hardware isn't great, from my point of view
Aug 16 10:05:24 <psycho_oreos> should probably also send some pictures/photos as proof :P
Aug 16 10:05:42 <lupine_85> the software is alright. it has apt
Aug 16 10:05:59 <snamuss> ja jo
Aug 16 10:06:14 <Cor-Ai> jo ja
Aug 16 10:06:15 <psycho_oreos> the hardware imo is almost better than iphone 3GS (comparing to a device that was only released months earlier, no point comparing with devices released these days)
Aug 16 10:06:29 <psycho_oreos> err in every single way
Aug 16 10:06:37 <lupine_85> no, the hardware is fragile and the CPU is too slow
Aug 16 10:06:51 <lupine_85> the screen resolution is also quite poor and the keyboard, while reasonable, isn't amazing
Aug 16 10:07:09 <snamuss> on what device?
Aug 16 10:07:11 <lupine_85> it doesn't make it a *bad* device, mind. it's a very good one
Aug 16 10:07:13 <lupine_85> N900
Aug 16 10:07:14 <jiero> Looks like iPhone 3GS is still the best music phone :D?
Aug 16 10:07:27 <psycho_oreos> CPU is faster than iphone 3GS in coremark comparison. iphone 3GS doesn't even have hardware keyboard
Aug 16 10:07:45 <lupine_85> yes, I don't have a 3GS
Aug 16 10:07:55 <lupine_85> from my point of view, a 3210 is better than one of those
Aug 16 10:07:59 <snamuss> but isnt it about the software anyway?
Aug 16 10:08:04 <lupine_85> jas
Aug 16 10:08:18 <snamuss> while iphonez users jailbreak... you know
Aug 16 10:08:19 <psycho_oreos> let alone an universal microUSB connector which literally every other phone manufacturer has to pretty much produce on their phones. Apple continues to blissfully ignore that
Aug 16 10:08:34 <Arkenoi> the only thing that really really sucked in n900 is 256Mb RAM
Aug 16 10:08:42 <jiero> lol how, iPhone 3GS have a 600Mhz CPU, and N900 only 500Mhz?
Aug 16 10:08:54 <robbiethe1st> N900's 600mhz stock as well
Aug 16 10:09:00 <lupine_85> ja
Aug 16 10:09:05 <psycho_oreos> I don't have iphone 3GS either but I can see that had nokia released N900 earlier than iphone 3GS
Aug 16 10:09:05 <jiero> no, its 500mhz.
Aug 16 10:09:05 <lupine_85> still too slow
Aug 16 10:09:09 <snamuss> overclock?
Aug 16 10:09:10 <robbiethe1st> Also, 256 mb of ram is the only problem... but it can be worked around with some tweaking
Aug 16 10:09:19 <fortytwo> Clock speed isn't everything anyway
Aug 16 10:09:19 <psycho_oreos> jiero, its not 500MHz, it runs 600MHz stock
Aug 16 10:09:32 <robbiethe1st> And yea, OC + swap-tweaking + improved transitions... you can have a device that really flies
Aug 16 10:09:39 <psycho_oreos> err it would have been better.. ffs I need to stop hitting enter too quickly
Aug 16 10:09:53 <jiero> psycho_oreos: I read some article yesterday, it says 600Mhz max, normally 500Mhz.
Aug 16 10:10:05 <lupine_85> psycho_oreos, mine is currently advertising 499BogoMIPS
Aug 16 10:10:12 <lupine_85> well,499.92
Aug 16 10:10:21 <robbiethe1st> It automatically goes between 600mhz and 250, depending on load
Aug 16 10:10:35 <robbiethe1st> also, it will sleep at 0mhz for small fractions of a second whe idle
Aug 16 10:10:36 <dm8tbr> and bogomips are as the name says: bogus
Aug 16 10:10:53 <dm8tbr> and only calculated exactly once during boot IIRC
Aug 16 10:10:57 <psycho_oreos> jiero, that article is lying. N900 coming out of the box runs 600MHz under full load without overclocking. There has been people running what 1GHz (overclocked with power kernel) on N900
Aug 16 10:11:30 <snamuss> did the battery take a huge hit because of that?
Aug 16 10:11:37 <psycho_oreos> lupine_85, I'm not using bogoMIPS to calculate. I compiled coremark to run on N900 and the scores came out higher (albeit slightly) compared to iphone 3GS
Aug 16 10:11:38 <Shapeshifter> lupine_85: huh, the n900 has a bad resolution? Are you kidding me? It's an incredibly sharp display, especially enxt to all  those newfangled crap OLED pentile displays that have only 2/3 of the resolution.
Aug 16 10:11:39 <jiero> psycho_oreos: I knew what you mean:P
Aug 16 10:12:06 <psycho_oreos> jiero, yet you were trying to spread FUD on iphone's superiority? ;)
Aug 16 10:12:08 <robbiethe1st> Shapeshifter: Amen
Aug 16 10:13:15 <lupine_85> psycho_oreos, what is your obsession with the 3GS? I don't care how it compares to the 3GS. my judgement was not a comparative one
Aug 16 10:13:25 <lupine_85> ShadowJK, 800x480 is OK, but not great
Aug 16 10:13:42 <robbiethe1st> I'd like a 1024x600 LCD screen, but...
Aug 16 10:13:48 <lupine_85> I'm not unhappy with the hardware - if I were, I'd have taken the E7 and sold it and bought a tablet
Aug 16 10:13:50 <robbiethe1st> I don't see them in the <6" form factor
Aug 16 10:14:04 <jiero> Anybody can port this game? http://www.lgdb.org/game/berusky_2_bugs_escape_3d
Aug 16 10:14:25 <lupine_85> I probably won't be happy until I've got 4 cores and 1920x1200
Aug 16 10:14:28 <psycho_oreos> lupine_85, rather anti-obsession :p I was merely comparing 3GS which was officially released a few months before N900's official release
Aug 16 10:14:34 <jiero> I want it, its so pretty and require only TNT2 to run.
Aug 16 10:14:52 <Shapeshifter> lupine_85: uh, right
Aug 16 10:15:04 <robbiethe1st> I dunno. 250dpi's about as good as I want on a screen, beyond that it gets hard to see the individual pixels.
Aug 16 10:15:49 <robbiethe1st> N900 screen's nice and sharp, and I can /just/ make out the pixels. So... just need that + more screen space for more res.
Aug 16 10:16:24 <lupine_85> I did semi-seriously consider getting a tablet and doing phone calls through it using SIP+bluetooth headset
Aug 16 10:17:00 <lupine_85> in the end, having it fit in my pocket was slightly more important than my unrealistic hardware expectations
Aug 16 10:18:22 <flailingmonkey> lupine_85: why pocket? tablet should just wrap around your bicep for easy transport
Aug 16 10:18:27 <flailingmonkey> =P
Aug 16 10:19:31 <lupine_85> :p
Aug 16 10:19:44 <lupine_85> flexible circuit boards *are* coming
Aug 16 10:20:16 <lupine_85> in 20 years or so, I expect to be able to fold my home PC up and stick it in my pocket
Aug 16 10:20:36 <robbiethe1st> ...at which point it'll melt your pocket and give you 3rd degree burns!
Aug 16 10:21:08 <radiofree> and after a week your home pc will end up like this http://www.unenlightenedenglish.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/crumpled-paper.jpg
Aug 16 10:21:09 <psycho_oreos> meh, VR glasses/holographic images ftw
Aug 16 10:24:00 <flailingmonkey> why bother creating actual or virtual images, neural interface is the only way to fly
Aug 16 10:24:07 <flailingmonkey> that's when you can say
Aug 16 10:24:14 <flailingmonkey> "NOW we're cooking with gas!"
Aug 16 10:24:15 <snamuss> has anyone here overclocked their n900? if so, was it worth it?
Aug 16 10:24:59 <psycho_oreos> neural interfaces could probably be at least a few more decades down the track
Aug 16 10:26:17 <Arkenoi> snamuss, me. yes.
Aug 16 10:26:49 <Hurrian> copying 2G of music to the N900 over wifi.
Aug 16 10:26:52 <Hurrian> this is painfully slow.
Aug 16 10:26:52 <flailingmonkey> mind / machine comes after neural. neural just simulates input at neural level, then mind/machine is where your actual mind starts incorporating technology. you can just "know" the data provided to you
Aug 16 10:27:06 <psycho_oreos> Hurrian, and rather somewhat a bad idea :)
Aug 16 10:27:57 <flailingmonkey> Hurrian: that's a start and walk away procedure. if you give it an hour or so it should get done :p
Aug 16 10:28:26 <Hurrian> flailingmonkey, started around 6PM, it's 6:25 now, and du -chs says 1.1GB
Aug 16 10:28:35 <Hurrian> 1 hour should be about right
Aug 16 10:29:34 <jiero> Anybody port the MIUI android? looks much faster than normal one.
Aug 16 10:29:34 <psycho_oreos> N900 will get rather warm after maybe several hours of heavy wifi usage :)
Aug 16 10:30:07 <Hurrian> jiero, no one porting it
Aug 16 10:30:36 <Hurrian> if you want, take nitdroid's patches to AOSP 2.3.4/5 and apply them to miui
Aug 16 10:30:46 <Hurrian> afaik, most of the heavy work is in the kernel
Aug 16 10:31:01 <Shapeshifter> It's a good thing that apparently my carrier isn't enforcing that throttling... I'm way over the 2gb quota already.
Aug 16 10:31:27 <psycho_oreos> and you're not going to get charged for exceeding the quota either? :)
Aug 16 10:32:17 <Hurrian> psycho_oreos, the N900 gets warm after a few minutes in nano
Aug 16 10:33:05 <psycho_oreos> Hurrian, lol ouch, I hardly use nano myself though
Aug 16 10:33:58 <jiero> A breaking news. a new android device released. UNBEATABLE PRICE... Dual core 1.5Ghz, 4“ ALMOND, 1G RAM cost 2000RMB/1600RMB, around $260 , brand new...
Aug 16 10:34:16 <robbiethe1st> Suuure.
Aug 16 10:35:07 <Hurrian> >android
Aug 16 10:35:10 <Hurrian> do not want
Aug 16 10:35:19 <jiero> And it have different android
Aug 16 10:35:23 <Hurrian> in before the 1.5GHz core is rockchip
Aug 16 10:35:30 <jiero> it dual boot android and its own system
Aug 16 10:36:24 <jiero> They developed a system  called miui, now their device arrived... 
Aug 16 10:37:36 * robbiethe1st wants 5" 1024x600 phone, Intel moorestown proc, dual-replacable batteries and HW keyboard with an Open bootloader
Aug 16 10:37:44 <psycho_oreos> the ones running on android are ok, its the ones running on symbian is the ones you want to avoid :)
Aug 16 10:39:47 <Hurrian> psycho_oreos, for a phone OS, i'd take symbian over android any day of the week
Aug 16 10:39:59 <Hurrian> in fact, i'd use S60 3rd Edition FP1/2
Aug 16 10:40:50 <psycho_oreos> Hurrian, eww I'd much prefer a workable linux core with decent userland tools rather than a heavily locked down platform with locked bootloader and hardly any decent userland tools
Aug 16 10:40:52 <jiero> Hurrian: sure Nokia should launch a phone dual boot symbian and other
Aug 16 10:41:26 <jiero> why symbian stopped, because Nokia worry developers not following up with their WP7?
Aug 16 10:41:36 <Trewas> dual booting phones, they would surely take over the whole world!
Aug 16 10:41:40 <Hurrian> psycho_oreos, i said phone OS, not mobile computer os
Aug 16 10:43:05 <jiero> Trewas: then a fast way to switch, 4 seconds switch OS...:P
Aug 16 10:43:06 <psycho_oreos> Hurrian, that's what I meant.. though I've not played with symbian on mobile computers (and wouldn't want to imagine playing with one either). My previous phone was N95-1 (with Symbian S60 3rd Edition FP1 I think)
Aug 16 10:44:20 <psycho_oreos> and I still vaguely recall my qualms with N95, even with the insane obsession with the need to have every damn package signed before they can be installed
Aug 16 10:44:50 <Shapeshifter> my previous phone was an ericsson T39m
Aug 16 10:45:00 <Shapeshifter> that thing was small and proper
Aug 16 10:45:04 <Trewas> jiero: a nice marketing slogan for a dual booting phone could be something like "we can't make one good phone OS, so you'll get two bad ones"
Aug 16 10:45:05 <psycho_oreos> probably similar to the way nokia made N950 behave now (maybe may even infect N9), with aegis
Aug 16 10:45:54 <Hurrian> psycho_oreos, i used to own a plum+silver N95-1, helloox solved all my problems ;)
Aug 16 10:45:55 <jiero> Trewas: it also says: one way you can standby 50 days, one way you enjoy a whole day:D
Aug 16 10:46:00 <rly> How do I know which release I need to select on the firmware images page? I want the newest that is clear, but I don't know whether I have the global release or the USA release. 
Aug 16 10:46:09 <psycho_oreos> I had a sony ericsson mobile once, was really lame and eventually it died. Never wanted a phone like that ever again (and will never now because of Sony's insane addiction with DRM/SCMS)
Aug 16 10:46:20 <rly> So, where can I see which release I currently have?
Aug 16 10:46:32 <Hurrian> RX-51_2009SE_20.2010.36-2_PR_COMBINED_MR0_ARM.bin = PR1.3 Global
Aug 16 10:46:36 <robbiethe1st> Either will work
Aug 16 10:46:52 <robbiethe1st> Go with global unless you're in the USA
Aug 16 10:47:17 <psycho_oreos> Hurrian, yup had that with ROMpatcher, etc. Though it really does lack power tools, like I can't go into some sort of terminal mode (python is not an answer here) and write up some nifty commands
Aug 16 10:47:43 <Hurrian> psycho_oreos, tried a SE phone once, screen resolution was the absolute worst, either that or the system font wasn't as nice as nokia sans
Aug 16 10:47:47 <psycho_oreos> rly, osso-product-version, settings -> About product, *#0000#
Aug 16 10:48:08 <psycho_oreos> Hurrian, SE as in security enhanced?
Aug 16 10:48:23 <Hurrian> sony ericsson.
Aug 16 10:48:34 <psycho_oreos> ahh
Aug 16 10:49:31 <Hurrian> man, it is a huge pain to work with only 3.5in of screen space on the N900
Aug 16 10:49:44 <Hurrian> i'd love 4 inches.
Aug 16 10:49:48 <psycho_oreos> wait.. T39mc, isn't that the flip phone? that was a proper Ericsson phone that I used to own. Too bad its gone somewhere in the dump. I had a Sony Ericsson phone following T39mc (iirc) and it kept crashing, stupid device really
Aug 16 10:50:10 <Shapeshifter> psycho_oreos: yes, the T39m was pure ericsson and it was quite neat. flip with an aerial
Aug 16 10:50:25 <Shapeshifter> it had the bluetooths :>
Aug 16 10:50:47 <Shapeshifter> I had two of them, one died
Aug 16 10:50:52 <Shapeshifter> then I bought the n900
Aug 16 10:51:02 <Shapeshifter> Now I have two N900s...
Aug 16 10:51:03 <psycho_oreos> Shapeshifter, fyi I personally deem that as Ericsson not Sony Ericsson, it was the first few lots of Sony Ericsson phones were really shit imo
Aug 16 10:51:23 <Shapeshifter> yep, sony ericsson is pretty terrible
Aug 16 10:51:31 <psycho_oreos> and yes that was a rather nice phone. I used to remember spending days on end chatting on that phone
Aug 16 10:51:44 <psycho_oreos> phone = Ericsson T39mc
Aug 16 10:51:59 <psycho_oreos> and yeah now I have two N900, one N95-1
Aug 16 10:52:05 <Shapeshifter> It was also neat how the battery plugged right into the back of the phone
Aug 16 10:52:08 <Shapeshifter> without a cover
Aug 16 10:52:14 <Hurrian> in the philippines, people went to SE and Moto for the nicer-looking phones
Aug 16 10:52:14 <Shapeshifter> saving space
Aug 16 10:52:24 <Hurrian> wait exactly one month, they'd be back to Nokia
Aug 16 10:52:43 <psycho_oreos> the LED lights were really fancy, though it was a carry over design from T29 which I never personally owned but me parents have had them
Aug 16 10:53:33 <Shapeshifter> yeah.
Aug 16 10:53:54 <Shapeshifter> hey, it had bluetooth and HSCSD
Aug 16 10:54:19 <Shapeshifter> and infra red, all in such a tiny package ;)
Aug 16 10:55:48 <psycho_oreos> me mum had Sony Ericsson Z520i, the charger one day decided to shit itself. So the phone was never used since. Recently I started tinkering around with it (even though it was meant to be chucked into the bin ages ago) and use a different charger which had a much higher amp rating than the original and authentic charger. Guess what, the phone worked for few moments briefly before it killed itself (probably fried the circuits). Mum had an old Nokia 3230, us
Aug 16 10:55:48 <psycho_oreos> ed the same charger (no not the authentic one, which had much lower amp rating) and tried charging the phone with it, it wouldn't charge.
Aug 16 10:55:55 <psycho_oreos> WAP as well
Aug 16 10:56:42 <psycho_oreos> something tells me Sony Ericsson phones probably didn't have BME unlike Nokia lol
Aug 16 10:57:55 <Shapeshifter> ;)
Aug 16 10:59:27 <psycho_oreos> ahh well, after meego with nokia it'll be mango, that'll be fun for any hardcore nokia fan :)
Aug 16 11:03:33 <ruskie> psycho_oreos, that's why S40 still exists ;)
Aug 16 11:04:37 <psycho_oreos> ruskie, *shudders* thankfully not for me, once meego is dead from nokia I'll jump the bridge just like every other person who did :)
Aug 16 11:04:47 <ruskie> psycho_oreos, hehe
Aug 16 11:04:52 <ruskie> depends what you want
Aug 16 11:05:00 <ruskie> frankly meego so far looks like crap for me
Aug 16 11:05:14 <Corsac> the nokia meego or the intel meego?
Aug 16 11:05:20 <ruskie> the handset ux
Aug 16 11:05:45 <ruskie> not even considering the n9 stuff
Aug 16 11:06:12 <psycho_oreos> indeed, I'm just too addicted to linux's userland power tools. If I had to put up with linux CLI, I wouldn't mind. If I were to be stuck with a GUI that tells me what to do and what to not do I'd throw it in the fire
Aug 16 11:06:50 <psycho_oreos> Corsac, nokia meego, intel hasn't made any phones running meego anyway, apart from making moorestown which was used in the case of Aava mobile
Aug 16 11:07:38 <Hurrian> ah, i'll probably just build a phone from a gumstix board
Aug 16 11:08:04 <psycho_oreos> I thought you'd stick to symbian Hurrian lol
Aug 16 11:08:25 <Hurrian> psycho_oreos, i need a mobile computer with a phone strapped on to it
Aug 16 11:08:47 <psycho_oreos> Hurrian, what about openmoko for instance? ;)
Aug 16 11:09:18 <Hurrian> psycho_oreos, not enough performance
Aug 16 11:09:25 * psycho_oreos tries to recall other names but the words are quickly escaping from his memory the moment he tries to recall
Aug 16 11:09:57 <ruskie> hehe
Aug 16 11:09:58 <Hurrian> 3g usb dongle + battery + speakers + huge touchscreen + crazy fast SD card + Linux = phone
Aug 16 11:10:03 <psycho_oreos> Hurrian, heh ouch
Aug 16 11:10:07 <Hurrian> oh, and lots of duct tape
Aug 16 11:10:19 <Hurrian> lots and lots of duct tape
Aug 16 11:10:38 <psycho_oreos> oh.. what about cordia? :D
Aug 16 11:12:02 <Hurrian> psycho_oreos, what about ubuntu, gentoo and meego+cordia?
Aug 16 11:12:10 <psycho_oreos> tablet + SIM capable + wifi + huge touchscreen (compared against N900) + maemo UI lookalike interface
Aug 16 11:12:20 <psycho_oreos> Hurrian, I meant cordiatab
Aug 16 11:12:33 <Hurrian> ah
Aug 16 11:12:40 <Hurrian> too big for me
Aug 16 11:13:12 <psycho_oreos> and looks more refined than having too much duct tapes ;)
Aug 16 11:13:54 <vi__> sorry, lost connection
Aug 16 11:14:01 <vi__> did anyone answer?
Aug 16 11:14:10 <vi__> n810, can it be ovdrclocked?
Aug 16 11:15:38 <Hurrian> vi, doesn't the N810 cap out the chip at around 400MHz?
Aug 16 11:16:19 <Hurrian> instead of passing everything thru framebuffer, time to figure out how to use PowerVR MBX inside ;)
Aug 16 11:16:30 <Hurrian> *software framebuffer
Aug 16 11:16:56 <xkr47> gl
Aug 16 11:17:55 <vi__> Hurrian: i have no idea
Aug 16 11:18:26 <vi__> was considering aquiring an n810 for it's slim mobile computerness
Aug 16 11:20:33 <Venemo> vi__, I wouldn't expect much from an N810 in 2011.
Aug 16 11:21:03 <Hurrian> Venemo, I traded my N95 for a N810, everything is just peachy
Aug 16 11:21:33 <Hurrian> i wouldn't mind if i had a N900 with that screen size
Aug 16 11:21:41 <Venemo> mhm
Aug 16 11:21:47 <psycho_oreos> Hurrian, fyi... too much duct tape over all the things you want in a phone = http://mypetfat.typepad.com/photos/uncategorized/2007/06/29/5.jpg
Aug 16 11:21:52 <Corsac> I find the n810 too large
Aug 16 11:21:58 <jiero> I do want N900 4" inch or 7 inch...
Aug 16 11:22:03 <Venemo> well, N950 is almost an N900 with N810 screen size.
Aug 16 11:22:21 <Corsac> yeah
Aug 16 11:22:24 <Corsac> too large
Aug 16 11:22:33 <Corsac> (for me)
Aug 16 11:22:34 <Venemo> as for a 7 inch version, see the http://cordiatab.com/
Aug 16 11:22:46 <vi__> Venemo: well NO ONE HAS A F^***** n950 have tehy
Aug 16 11:22:59 <Venemo> vi__, I have.
Aug 16 11:23:09 <vi__> well booly for you
Aug 16 11:23:11 <jiero> Venemo:  WOW
Aug 16 11:23:21 <jiero> <3:g
Aug 16 11:23:26 <vi__> maybe the rest of us plebs might see a picture
Aug 16 11:23:43 <psycho_oreos> jiero, cordiatab ;)
Aug 16 11:23:57 <vi__> cordiatab
Aug 16 11:23:59 <Venemo> I was busy developing my apps, didn't take many pics
Aug 16 11:24:00 <vi__> orly?
Aug 16 11:24:31 <jiero> psycho_oreos: thank you too
Aug 16 11:25:08 <Corsac> Venemo: is it mor than vaporware right now? :)
Aug 16 11:25:38 <Venemo> Corsac, what do you mean?
Aug 16 11:26:03 <Corsac> Venemo: does it exist?
Aug 16 11:26:18 <vi__> i donated $30 dollers to cordia project, then smoku says he hates nokia and will have nothing to do with any of their hardware.
Aug 16 11:26:45 <Venemo> vi__, well, he still carries forward the project.
Aug 16 11:26:51 <vi__> i didnt realise at the time i was helping fund somone elses commercial enterprise
Aug 16 11:26:52 <psycho_oreos> that's what happened with a fair few other devs
Aug 16 11:26:52 <Venemo> Corsac, yes, the N950 does exist, I have one right in front of me.
Aug 16 11:27:10 <Venemo> vi__, and cordiatab is NOT a commercial enterprise.
Aug 16 11:27:19 <Venemo> please read the website before you judge.
Aug 16 11:27:22 <Corsac> Venemo: I meant the cordiatab
Aug 16 11:27:37 <triscao> where do i find code-reset app? to reset unlock code
Aug 16 11:27:46 <Venemo> Corsac, ah, that. well, smoku is negotiating with the chinese guys about it.
Aug 16 11:28:06 <psycho_oreos> there's no `app' for it, and there was a tmo thread on it
Aug 16 11:28:38 <Stskeeps> odd question, is there any videos of cordia on n900?
Aug 16 11:28:50 <Venemo> Stskeeps, nope, but some people did manage to run it
Aug 16 11:28:56 <triscao> somebody talked about it later today that there was an app called codereset
Aug 16 11:29:33 <Venemo> Stskeeps, last time I checked there were still some difficulties regarding the installation
Aug 16 11:31:15 <psycho_oreos> I'd imagine if there was an `app' for it, it would probably serve as a god send to those with stolen N900
Aug 16 11:31:17 <Venemo> Stskeeps, most notably the marina theme fails to build for ARM, and despite it being noarch, OBS is too stupid to offer the x86-built version.
Aug 16 11:32:13 <Hurrian> venemo, how can something with no source code to compile fail to build?
Aug 16 11:32:47 <Venemo> Hurrian, it calls some tool to dither the images (or whatever)
Aug 16 11:47:11 <cityLights> hi
Aug 16 11:47:33 <cityLights> did anyone try to connect a usb wifi then run hostapd on the n900?
Aug 16 12:00:17 <cityLights> so quiet
Aug 16 12:00:29 <cityLights> !seen MohhamadAG
Aug 16 12:00:32 <cityLights> ~seen MohhamadAG
Aug 16 12:00:33 <infobot> i haven't seen 'mohhamadag', cityLights
Aug 16 12:00:47 <cityLights> ~seen MohamadAG
Aug 16 12:00:47 <infobot> i haven't seen 'mohamadag', cityLights
Aug 16 12:01:06 <cityLights> hi lardman
Aug 16 12:01:21 <cityLights> havent been here in a while
Aug 16 12:01:25 <cityLights> pls update me
Aug 16 12:01:29 <lardman> hi cityLights 
Aug 16 12:01:35 <cityLights> did everyone get their n950?
Aug 16 12:01:44 <lardman> afaik almost everyone yes
Aug 16 12:01:48 <cityLights> are all busy coding using QT?
Aug 16 12:01:52 <lardman> yep
Aug 16 12:01:56 <lupine_85> cityLights, it's lacking USB host powah
Aug 16 12:01:58 <lardman> should be QML really
Aug 16 12:02:00 <lupine_85> so I'm not sure how that would work
Aug 16 12:02:43 <lupine_85> hmm, https://garage.maemo.org/projects/h-e-n
Aug 16 12:02:50 <Guest25943> hello, is it possible to get between de microphone and the gsm uplink?
Aug 16 12:03:17 <cityLights> does the crawd here decided toturn around regarding the N9?
Aug 16 12:03:31 <lardman> turn around?
Aug 16 12:03:33 <triscao> do you people use smscon?
Aug 16 12:03:37 <Guest25943> i want to encrypt the gsm data befor it is send
Aug 16 12:04:02 <lardman> Guest15721: what do you mean exactly? You may be able to intercept the voice data before it crosses to the modem
Aug 16 12:04:14 <lardman> ah I see
Aug 16 12:04:16 <cityLights> well, after the N9 and N950 where declared, most ppl here had bad things to say
Aug 16 12:04:26 <cityLights> did this verdict changed?
Aug 16 12:04:42 <lardman> cityLights: N950 is pretty good, other than the old software
Aug 16 12:04:53 <cityLights> got one?
Aug 16 12:04:58 <lardman> N9 lacks kb which isn't good, but has NFC which will add some cool possibilities
Aug 16 12:05:04 <Guest25943> all i found is dbus but nothing that would really help. only detect calls but not get the stream
Aug 16 12:05:06 <lardman> yep I've got an N950
Aug 16 12:05:08 <Guest25943> yes lardman
Aug 16 12:05:23 <chem|st> lardman: does not help anyone as there wont be N9 on the bigger markets and n950 on any market...
Aug 16 12:05:27 <lardman> Guest15721: perhaps look at kernel modules that hook into the audio pipeline
Aug 16 12:05:38 <lardman> chem|st: yeah that is a problem
Aug 16 12:05:53 <Arkenoi> Guest15721, voice scamblers suck over gsm doe to nature of gsm codec
Aug 16 12:06:11 <lardman> Though with Google's purchase of the mobile bits of Motorola, perhaps we'll see more interest in Meego
Aug 16 12:06:17 <chem|st> lardman: if I would do SE for a living I wouldn' even touch it
Aug 16 12:06:37 <lardman> chem|st: what's SE?
Aug 16 12:06:39 <Guest25943> do you have a tip which one i should look at? (sry for lame questions ;))
Aug 16 12:06:47 <chem|st> software engineering
Aug 16 12:06:53 <Arkenoi> Guest15721, you should use either CSD if it is supported or voip
Aug 16 12:07:14 <triscao> in what respitory do i find vlc and firefox? have added all i can find but cant search them up and download
Aug 16 12:07:31 <lardman> Guest15721: re intercepting the voice data, not off hand, but try stracing the phone app and see what it does perhaps
Aug 16 12:07:38 <Guest25943> Arkenoi, i don't want to use voip
Aug 16 12:07:45 <chem|st> triscao: in the vlc repo and the mozilla repo, they got their own up
Aug 16 12:07:52 <Arkenoi> and as 3g coverage constantly increases voip is just ok for you
Aug 16 12:07:53 <lardman> chem|st: I wasn't saying that the N9 was going to be a big thing, just that NFC looks cool
Aug 16 12:07:59 <lupine_85> presumably it's "just alsa"
Aug 16 12:08:02 <Arkenoi> Guest15721, it will suck then.
Aug 16 12:08:12 <Guest25943> hehe
Aug 16 12:08:34 <triscao> oki thnx chem|st
Aug 16 12:08:55 <lupine_85> wonder if it could use pulseaudio
Aug 16 12:08:57 <Guest25943> arkenoi, why? to slow? 
Aug 16 12:09:10 <lupine_85> oh, hey, it already does
Aug 16 12:09:16 <lupine_85> so, just define a new sink ?
Aug 16 12:09:16 <psycho_oreos> NFC in N9's case is pretty useless apart from the stated functionality of its use in the instance of sharing angry birds levels
Aug 16 12:09:19 <Arkenoi> Guest15721, also with voip you may use variety of other soft phones supporting srtp/zrtp
Aug 16 12:09:50 <chem|st> lupine_85: there is no "just" in PA for maemo
Aug 16 12:09:57 <lupine_85> pff
Aug 16 12:10:05 <Arkenoi> Guest15721, bandwidth. voice codec does exactly that -- encodes voice. scrambled data are not technically voice so it will suck.
Aug 16 12:10:06 <lupine_85> not another mangled thing ?
Aug 16 12:10:20 <psycho_oreos> and again both N950 as well as N9 is crippled in their own ways. No matter how you look at it, the result is always the same. Though ultimately either of N950 or N9 will be better than Sea Ray in the long haul
Aug 16 12:10:24 <lardman> psycho_oreos: one could write one's own apps of course
Aug 16 12:11:13 <chem|st> they crippled some things and the access is mangled down to a limited command set and getting PA to do multicasts seems impossible to me...
Aug 16 12:11:18 <Arkenoi> Guest15721, people already tried to design scrambler based gsm crypto phone and all that sucked enough to switch to either csd link or voip
Aug 16 12:11:36 <Arkenoi> see how commerciallly available models work
Aug 16 12:11:41 <Arkenoi> old ones are all csd
Aug 16 12:11:42 <psycho_oreos> lardman, yeah first though you have to work around somehow that stupid aegis
Aug 16 12:11:52 <lupine_85> hmm, there's a "pasr" command
Aug 16 12:11:58 <Arkenoi> newer are more likely to be voip if not designed long time ago
Aug 16 12:12:06 <lupine_85> not sure if it'll do the trick, but --help looks interesting
Aug 16 12:12:14 <ruskie> http://www.theregister.co.uk/2011/08/16/apple_samsung/
Aug 16 12:12:19 <Guest25943> arkenoi, so it is not wise to do that
Aug 16 12:12:38 <Arkenoi> Guest15721, why you are against voip so much?
Aug 16 12:12:45 <lupine_85> presumably it's perfectly possible to compile a non-retarded pulseaudio, anyway
Aug 16 12:13:07 <lupine_85> so long as you get the versions right, ABI compatilbility with nokia's extra modules should be maintained
Aug 16 12:13:26 <Guest25943> arkenoi, cause it is not everywhere 
Aug 16 12:13:29 <lupine_85> still, I've not done it - or even looked at it 
Aug 16 12:13:41 <lupine_85> things always look easier from that perspective ;)
Aug 16 12:13:41 <Guest25943> arkenoi, and the most of the calls is still going to be gsm
Aug 16 12:14:24 <Guest25943> also i thought it would be a good work for my bachelor ;)
Aug 16 12:14:38 <Arkenoi> Guest15721, evern voip over EDGE will work better than scrambler.
Aug 16 12:15:03 <lardman> psycho_oreos: aegis doesn't allow access to the NFC hw?
Aug 16 12:15:29 <Arkenoi> Guest15721, well, if you solve this problem, write me arkenoi@gmail.com and you may expect some material reward
Aug 16 12:16:16 <Guest25943> arkenoi, if i do it is going to be open source
Aug 16 12:16:28 <Arkenoi> Guest15721, sure, that is what we need
Aug 16 12:16:48 <psycho_oreos> lardman, not that I know to what extent will aegis function but afaik aegis itself is noted to be a burden for harmattan owners
Aug 16 12:16:59 <psycho_oreos> er harmattan based device owners
Aug 16 12:17:13 <lardman> psycho_oreos: sure I've heard the stories, though it's not stopped me doing anything yet
Aug 16 12:17:28 <Arkenoi> you get it once we see a working prototype either for n900 or n9
Aug 16 12:18:44 <psycho_oreos> lardman, lucky for you whom happen to just own one of those. I can't test it out myself so I'll just have to go with whatever info I can get :p
Aug 16 12:19:54 <lardman> psycho_oreos: fair enough
Aug 16 12:23:01 <Arkenoi> Guest15721, you may also share some design sketches regarding crypto part with me, it might be possible that i can help.
Aug 16 12:56:24 <peterbjornxz> what libraries does bme need
Aug 16 12:58:56 <thomastp> is sbdmock still being used to build fremantle packages?
Aug 16 12:59:02 <thomastp> if so, anyone have a .cfg for it ?
Aug 16 13:10:22 <DocScrutinizer> peterbjornxz: use ldd to list the libs?
Aug 16 13:13:26 <DocScrutinizer> peterbjornxz: http://paste.debian.net/126388/
Aug 16 13:17:33 <DocScrutinizer> Guest25943: Arkenoi: doing crypto via GSM codec? does not work! really! thousands been there and failed. You can't transmit data via GSM codec at a rate sufficient for another realtime encoded voice channel
Aug 16 13:19:23 <SpeedEvil> ^can, but it's really hard
Aug 16 13:19:37 <DocScrutinizer> the only encryption that could work over GSM voice channel is a human speech realtime translator, they did this in WW-II with cherokee?
Aug 16 13:20:09 <SpeedEvil> There has been research into putting 1300bits/sec over a GSM channel, but that was using hax like putting what is basically a data-driven voicebox on the sending end, and speech recognition on the far
Aug 16 13:20:30 <SpeedEvil> It's - barely - fas enough for very low rate codecs
Aug 16 13:21:22 <DocScrutinizer> 1300bps? no way you get even the best codecs to transmit legible realtime voice at that datarate
Aug 16 13:23:08 <DocScrutinizer> even worse: you can't even replace the GSM codec by a version doing encryption, as the carriers' PBXs do all sorts of nasty things to the "data"stream like AEC and other *voice* quality enhancements - figure what they do to your encrypted data
Aug 16 13:23:58 <fizzie> I seem to recall some used-in-military lp-and-tricks thing doing intelligible voice at 1200bps. Horribly low rankings in quality, of course, but still intelligible.
Aug 16 13:25:05 <DocScrutinizer> with military grade speaker's dicipline, yes
Aug 16 13:25:23 <DocScrutinizer> using nato alphabet for each second word
Aug 16 13:26:32 <DocScrutinizer> beyond that: November Oscar Space Whiskey Alpha Yankee
Aug 16 13:26:55 <jaska> whiskey tango foxtrot
Aug 16 13:29:23 <Arkenoi> fizzie, DocScrutinizer, SpeedEvil that's exactly what we were discussing in private just now
Aug 16 13:29:30 <DocScrutinizer> Guest25943: please google a bit more to find like 20 such projects per year just for the few linux cellphones around. All of them eventually stalling when they wrap their head around fundamental restrictions imanent in GSM
Aug 16 13:29:59 <SpeedEvil> I can't find the original paper, it was more than a paper excersize though.
Aug 16 13:30:10 <psycho_oreos> echo xavier alpha charlie tango lima yankee
Aug 16 13:30:23 <Arkenoi> i suggested using low bandwith codec just as undesirable fallback if GPRS/EDGE connection is even worse
Aug 16 13:30:31 <Arkenoi> most people do use CSD for that
Aug 16 13:30:48 <DocScrutinizer> yep
Aug 16 13:30:50 <SpeedEvil> Doing it without paying detailed attention to what the GSM codecs (the various sorts used) do to the signal is fail though.
Aug 16 13:31:10 <DocScrutinizer> that's the correct way: point-2-point CSD data connection
Aug 16 13:31:11 <SpeedEvil> CSD is usually unavailable in many places.
Aug 16 13:31:29 <Arkenoi> DocScrutinizer, what makes me wonder is why there still is no zRTP plugin for maemo/meego. I offered to sponsor the project, about 4-5 people tried and all gave up
Aug 16 13:31:48 <DocScrutinizer> Arkenoi: dunno
Aug 16 13:31:57 <woodong50_______> hi
Aug 16 13:32:12 <woodong50_______> i am using n900
Aug 16 13:32:25 <DocScrutinizer> Arkenoi: zRTP is not exactly a simple implementation
Aug 16 13:32:26 <Arkenoi> SpeedEvil, CSD is widely used by previous generation m2m like ATM and fleet control, so it is generally available
Aug 16 13:32:43 <Shapeshifter> woodong50_______: is that long line your wood dong?
Aug 16 13:33:09 <psycho_oreos> lol
Aug 16 13:33:50 <SpeedEvil> Arkenoi: Not on many 'normal' peoples contracts.
Aug 16 13:34:05 <SpeedEvil> Or at least it's turned off, and will require expensive activation, or per-minute fees.
Aug 16 13:34:51 <woodong50_______> now i will remove long line
Aug 16 13:36:02 <Arkenoi> SpeedEvil, outgoing CSD is usually charged just like voice calls. incoming requires extra phone number and a special contract
Aug 16 13:36:46 <SpeedEvil> I looked a while ago, and it wasn't available on either of my contracts. (outgoing)
Aug 16 13:36:55 <SpeedEvil> I couldn't easily find a way to enable.
Aug 16 13:37:04 <SpeedEvil> This may have changed of course.
Aug 16 13:38:02 <fizzie> Speex at 2.15 kbps (the lowest official rate) is actually pretty nice-sounding. So you "just" need to push that much data through. I wouldn't be terribly surprised if that turned out to be not completely impossible with something that guesstimates which sort of combination of codecs and other manglings there are on the path, and adapts accordingly.
Aug 16 13:38:09 <DocScrutinizer> outgoing usually is linked to the inbound data-only dedicated second phone-number
Aug 16 13:38:34 <DocScrutinizer> I.E. often you need to contract inbound CSD to use outbound CSD
Aug 16 13:39:26 <DocScrutinizer> fizzie: that's what SpeedEvil was talking about for that weird vocoder box whitepaper
Aug 16 13:40:39 <SpeedEvil> fizzie: you end up with something that pushes 'voice-like' sounds into the codec at or somewhat below the codec frame rate.
Aug 16 13:40:44 <DocScrutinizer> fizzie: iirc it did a calibration step (probably several 10s of seconds), like every 'usual' modem, to "equalize" the media channel. Then used vocal alike symbols to transmit data
Aug 16 13:41:07 <SpeedEvil> fizzie: For example - frames are (for example IIRC) 40Hz. 
Aug 16 13:41:58 <DocScrutinizer> so you need 2100 / 40 bits/symbol encoding
Aug 16 13:42:01 <SpeedEvil> So if you can have 10 bits for frequency, 4 bits for loudness, 6 bits for 'sound'...
Aug 16 13:42:36 <fizzie> Speech-like output sounds like the obvious way to go, yes.
Aug 16 13:42:37 <DocScrutinizer> see? this doesn't match
Aug 16 13:43:50 <DocScrutinizer> SpeedEvil: where from are those numbers? :-D amazingly reasonable, I couldn't have come up with a guess that good in no time
Aug 16 13:44:06 <SpeedEvil> Random guess
Aug 16 13:44:14 <DocScrutinizer> awesome
Aug 16 13:44:39 <DocScrutinizer> see? that's why you are highlighted on my irc client :-D
Aug 16 13:45:03 <fizzie> Or looking more directly at CELP instead of just handwaving "speech-like". I had right here on this table somewhere a nice table of how the AMR-NB bandwidth gets divided between the various parameters it sends per frame, but can't locate it right now.
Aug 16 13:46:44 <DocScrutinizer> fizzie: basic information theory consideration make it clear you can't get 2k datarate over TWO codecs thru a data channel designed for 9.6K
Aug 16 13:47:00 <SpeedEvil> It's not quite that simple - as you have adc -> code +radio errors -> decode -> ISDN -> code +radio errors -> decode -> dac
Aug 16 13:47:13 <DocScrutinizer> exactly
Aug 16 13:47:47 <DocScrutinizer> each of those steps basically at least halving your data thruput bandwith
Aug 16 13:49:22 <DocScrutinizer> to make things worse, parts of your GSM channel might operate at HDR (half datarate) == 4800
Aug 16 13:49:23 <fizzie> I don't think "basic information theory" says anything except that you can't get more bits through it than there's actual bandwidth available there. But certainly it's not easy, especially if there's some sort of a transcoding step involved in the path.
Aug 16 13:50:13 <DocScrutinizer> dang, span CTCP bots? htuttle anybody else?
Aug 16 13:50:22 <DocScrutinizer> spam*
Aug 16 13:51:15 <DocScrutinizer> Is there any noticable join/part activity? My notifications are hidden
Aug 16 13:52:00 <DocScrutinizer> fizzie: it also says sth about redundancy and error correction
Aug 16 13:53:34 <DocScrutinizer> standard GSM codec/channel works with 50% redundancy/EC on top, that's why your raw datarate is 14400 for a 9600 GSM encoder
Aug 16 13:53:36 <psycho_oreos> some people have joined and parted but I am not sure from which time intervals you were referring to. I have set my client to ignore all CTCP requests except with a few exceptions
Aug 16 13:54:26 <DocScrutinizer> [2011-08-16 15:46:35] [CTCP] Versionsanfrage von htuttle empfangen.
Aug 16 13:54:27 <DocScrutinizer> [2011-08-16 15:46:38] [CTCP] Versionsanfrage von htuttle empfangen.
Aug 16 13:54:52 * psycho_oreos goes and gets a timezone converter
Aug 16 13:55:01 <DocScrutinizer> well, could've been random other chan. Sorry for the noise
Aug 16 13:55:16 <DocScrutinizer> 15:52:37
Aug 16 13:55:59 <psycho_oreos> hmm 6 minutes ago, so I see a timeout and someone left this chan, that's about it
Aug 16 13:56:07 <DocScrutinizer>  [Whois] htuttle hat Benutzerstatus in den Kanälen: #camp
Aug 16 13:56:50 <psycho_oreos> yup definitely that person isn't in here :) my whois shows up he's not in any chan.. (in other words, there's no chan that is common with both myself and him that are in)
Aug 16 13:57:50 <psycho_oreos> * thomastp has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) && * mardi (~mardi@212.183.140.0) has left #maemo happened in maybe 2 minutes gap ~ 6 minutes ago
Aug 16 13:58:26 <crashanddie> psycho_oreos, mardi has always had a bloody dodgy connection
Aug 16 13:58:49 <fizzie> A rule-of-thumb like "each step halves the bandwidth" sounds more practical than information-theoretical. Anyway, I'm not claiming it's possible or anything, just that I would not be surprised if it turned out to be not completely impossible, at least if it happens that the speech channel uses some higher-data-rate AMR-WB-at-24-kbps thing in The Future.
Aug 16 13:59:05 <fizzie> SpeedEvil: Was your "1200 bps" thing this, by any chance? http://portal.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=1860010
Aug 16 13:59:16 <psycho_oreos> crashanddie, lol though he's noted to have left the channel :D the nokia staff is having more dropouts as of recent
Aug 16 13:59:31 <fizzie> "Through real-world experiments, we show that Hermes achieves approximately 1.2 kbps goodput which when compared to SMS, --"
Aug 16 13:59:37 <fizzie> (I like the word "goodput".)
Aug 16 13:59:54 <crashanddie> psycho_oreos, usually he arrives in #securabit a minute before he arrives in #maemo, or vice-versa.
Aug 16 14:00:25 <psycho_oreos> crashanddie, sounds like there's definitely a lag there :)
Aug 16 14:00:37 <psycho_oreos> lag on his connection of course
Aug 16 14:01:00 <fizzie> (Whoops, I need to have been elsewhere ten minutes ago already.)
Aug 16 14:01:02 <DocScrutinizer> fizzie: it's based on +-1LSB convesion errors, so it's both pratical rule of thumb as well as some backup by theory
Aug 16 14:05:03 <DocScrutinizer> the real world approach is what that whitepaper seems to suggest: calibrate your channel, to determine the number of distinguishable symbols per step you can use
Aug 16 14:05:53 <DocScrutinizer> it's been like this since the time of 2400+ PSTN modems
Aug 16 14:07:40 <DocScrutinizer> you can optimize the kind of symbols you use, so they make maximum usage of the given channel: here it's vowels and consonants as that's what your channel is built for
Aug 16 14:08:36 <DocScrutinizer> you wouldn't even use "s" and "f" as distinct symbols if you spell a word over GSM in plain human conversation
Aug 16 14:09:06 <DocScrutinizer> GSM is virtually unable to distinguish them
Aug 16 14:10:48 <DocScrutinizer> other vowels take longer to build than the 1/40 secondof the framerate, so are not real entity symbols
Aug 16 14:11:05 <DocScrutinizer> like probably "r"
Aug 16 14:11:51 <DocScrutinizer> so number of symbols isn't that large: a e i o u s|f
Aug 16 14:12:15 <DocScrutinizer> plus frequency for all but s|f
Aug 16 14:13:07 <DocScrutinizer> maybe ae j and some more also work, on a good quality chan
Aug 16 14:15:54 <DocScrutinizer> multiply this by the number of available distinct frequencies for the vowels - keep in mind freq is of rather low importance for human speech so may get mangled heavily in your channel intermediate processors
Aug 16 14:16:16 <DocScrutinizer> you might find you only get like 5 really distinct freq
Aug 16 14:17:58 <DocScrutinizer> then there's also heavily optimized compression, based on the fact human speech can't do arbitrary transitions between symbols
Aug 16 14:21:07 <rly> When it says N950/N9, do they mean N900?
Aug 16 14:21:20 <Venemo_N950> rly, no
Aug 16 14:21:30 <Venemo_N950> they mean N9 and N950
Aug 16 14:22:34 <rly> Is there any way I can flash it on a 64 bits OS then?
Aug 16 14:22:43 <rly> (Linux)
Aug 16 14:23:15 <rly> It seems a bit ancient that one doesn't support 64 bits systems.
Aug 16 14:24:52 <DocScrutinizer> rly: please elaborate
Aug 16 14:25:06 <DocScrutinizer> we only can guess what's your problem/topic
Aug 16 14:25:42 <rly> DocScrutinizer: I want to flash my n900 to get the most recent image, but now I find that there is no flasher for Ubuntu 11.04 64 bits.
Aug 16 14:27:55 <DocScrutinizer> ~flashing
Aug 16 14:27:55 <infobot> from memory, maemo-flashing is http://wiki.maemo.org/Updating_the_tablet_firmware
Aug 16 14:28:10 <DocScrutinizer> should yield all the answers
Aug 16 14:28:44 <rly> DocScrutinizer: ah, right.
Aug 16 14:28:54 <DocScrutinizer> for the 64 Q: you can run 32 sw on 64, using the compat libs
Aug 16 14:29:22 <rly> DocScrutinizer: and what about 11.04 being newer than Lucid?
Aug 16 14:29:25 <DocScrutinizer> it's a real FAQ
Aug 16 14:29:33 <luke-jr_> in other words, installing a 32-bit OS on top of the 64-bit one
Aug 16 14:29:41 <crashanddie> luke-jr_, hardly
Aug 16 14:29:47 * luke-jr_ is glad to have a 64-bit flasher
Aug 16 14:29:59 <crashanddie> rly, doesn't really matter
Aug 16 14:30:15 <DocScrutinizer> crashanddie: for luke-jr_ Qt is a language, so probably a few libs are an OS
Aug 16 14:30:17 <DocScrutinizer> ;-P
Aug 16 14:30:22 <crashanddie> rly, there's little difference between 10.whatever and 11.whatever. I'd be surprised if the G++ ABI has changed in the meantime.
Aug 16 14:30:36 <rly> For stuff like this a simple statically linked binary with some run-time check on environment seems a lot simpler.
Aug 16 14:30:39 <luke-jr_> DocScrutinizer: it's not a few, it's every one you want to use
Aug 16 14:30:52 <crashanddie> rly, oh bollocks, get back in your 1960 cave.
Aug 16 14:31:07 <crashanddie> luke-jr_, which in case of the flasher, is not that many.
Aug 16 14:31:15 <luke-jr_> actually, I switched to pure 32-bit with my last reinstall
Aug 16 14:31:30 <luke-jr_> CPUs are fast enough that losing the registers is tolerable
Aug 16 14:31:35 <luke-jr_> but can never have enough memory
Aug 16 14:31:52 <crashanddie> even with EMT?
Aug 16 14:32:05 <luke-jr_> EMT?
Aug 16 14:32:12 <crashanddie> extended memory table
Aug 16 14:32:21 <luke-jr_> ?
Aug 16 14:32:29 <luke-jr_> my kernel is 64-bit
Aug 16 14:32:35 <crashanddie> ah, k
Aug 16 14:32:48 <crashanddie> so individual process can only address 4gb of ram?
Aug 16 14:32:53 <luke-jr_> yeah, that's plenty
Aug 16 14:33:02 <crashanddie> depends for what ;)
Aug 16 14:33:03 <DocScrutinizer> OMG no way
Aug 16 14:33:07 <luke-jr_> I only have 8 GB total right now
Aug 16 14:33:11 <DocScrutinizer> only 4GB per process
Aug 16 14:33:23 <DocScrutinizer> unbearable ;-P
Aug 16 14:33:40 <crashanddie> DocScrutinizer, I've got a single process handling over 22GB of data.
Aug 16 14:33:45 <crashanddie> in RAM.
Aug 16 14:33:50 <DocScrutinizer> dang
Aug 16 14:33:58 <DocScrutinizer> pretty poor design
Aug 16 14:34:04 <crashanddie> hardly.
Aug 16 14:34:06 <DocScrutinizer> or hightech on the fringe
Aug 16 14:34:21 <crashanddie> well, it's big-scale telephony
Aug 16 14:34:26 <DocScrutinizer> calculating rainbow tables? ;-P
Aug 16 14:34:47 <crashanddie> it's all the stats/call data of the last 24 hours
Aug 16 14:34:58 <DocScrutinizer> *cough*
Aug 16 14:35:12 <DocScrutinizer> WTF has this to stay resident
Aug 16 14:35:14 <DocScrutinizer> ?
Aug 16 14:35:25 <crashanddie> Lots of reasons
Aug 16 14:35:30 <DocScrutinizer> meh
Aug 16 14:35:33 <DocScrutinizer> dbms
Aug 16 14:35:37 <crashanddie> Nope
Aug 16 14:35:39 <crashanddie> Can't handle it.
Aug 16 14:35:45 <DocScrutinizer> *sigh*
Aug 16 14:36:00 <rly> You can only say something about it if you know the complete problem. 
Aug 16 14:36:14 <rly> (which likely is secret)
Aug 16 14:36:25 <DocScrutinizer> sure, just kidding on crashy a bit ;-D
Aug 16 14:36:40 <crashanddie> I know, I know
Aug 16 14:37:33 <javispedro> actually 32 bit processes can access more than 4GiB of RAM ;)
Aug 16 14:37:35 <javispedro> it's called a window ;)
Aug 16 14:37:37 * javispedro hides
Aug 16 14:37:51 <DocScrutinizer> there are definitely usecases for 64, but desktop rarely is one of them
Aug 16 14:38:29 <cehteh> hey firefox is a desktop application :P
Aug 16 14:38:40 <DocScrutinizer> I'm going for 32 for all my desktop boxes every day
Aug 16 14:39:20 <DocScrutinizer> cehteh: I heard next FF version can only run on servers with at least 16 cores and 32GB RAM, via remote X
Aug 16 14:39:31 * javispedro used to go 32 but since I have 4GiB of RAM there's plenty to waste and I find the extra registers useful (exactly the opposite reasoning to luke-jr's)
Aug 16 14:40:02 <luke-jr_> would be nice if 32-bit mode could use the registers too :P
Aug 16 14:40:36 <jacekowski> luke-jr_: it can
Aug 16 14:40:46 <luke-jr_> jacekowski: oh?
Aug 16 14:41:12 <jacekowski> luke-jr_: are you talking about new x64 registers?
Aug 16 14:41:15 <luke-jr_> jacekowski: so there's no loss to 32-bit mode after all? do I need to do something magic to GCC?
Aug 16 14:41:22 <luke-jr_> x86_64*, yes
Aug 16 14:41:41 <jacekowski> luke-jr_: as far as i know, no compiler has support for it yet
Aug 16 14:41:55 <jacekowski> luke-jr_: and only nasm can correctly code modrm for new registers
Aug 16 14:42:01 <luke-jr_> aww
Aug 16 14:42:07 <javispedro> ooh, I remember something
Aug 16 14:42:16 <javispedro> x86_32?
Aug 16 14:42:19 <luke-jr_> jacekowski: is it supported by all 64-bit procs, or just newer ones?
Aug 16 14:42:29 <jacekowski> luke-jr_: all supporting amd64
Aug 16 14:42:36 <luke-jr_> nice
Aug 16 14:42:37 <jacekowski> luke-jr_: not old p4 that had the ia64 thing
Aug 16 14:42:44 <jacekowski> or whatever it was called
Aug 16 14:42:47 <luke-jr_> O.o
Aug 16 14:43:01 <luke-jr_> IA32e *is* amd64 O.o
Aug 16 14:43:21 <jacekowski> EM64T i meant
Aug 16 14:43:35 <jacekowski> hmm
Aug 16 14:43:35 <jacekowski> no
Aug 16 14:43:37 <jacekowski> different thing
Aug 16 14:43:57 <jacekowski> there was something intel introduced initially that was different
Aug 16 14:44:26 <jacekowski> but it was only in very early days of 64bit
Aug 16 14:45:13 <javispedro> http://wiki.osdev.org/X86_Instruction_Encoding#REX_prefix
Aug 16 14:45:57 <jacekowski> yeah
Aug 16 14:46:12 <jacekowski> only nasm can code it correctly
Aug 16 14:46:15 <javispedro> I _remember_ someone did start a gcc port
Aug 16 14:46:21 <javispedro> in fact the name x86_32 rings a bell
Aug 16 14:46:25 <javispedro> but can't google it
Aug 16 14:46:35 <jacekowski> well, maybe something has changed
Aug 16 14:46:39 <jacekowski> but i doubt it
Aug 16 14:46:58 <jacekowski> when you have 64bit processor you may just as well run full 64bit code
Aug 16 14:47:22 <javispedro> the issue is memory wasting and increased cache pressure due to the increased pointer size
Aug 16 14:47:23 <jacekowski> and i wouldn't be surprised if these registers are not saved during context switches by any 32bit os
Aug 16 14:48:00 <javispedro> I remember the first days with everyone saying "OMG amd64 is up to 30% faster with the new regs!!"
Aug 16 14:48:01 <jacekowski> i measn pusha instruction
Aug 16 14:48:04 <jacekowski> because that would break compatibility
Aug 16 14:48:16 <javispedro> jacekowski: either way amd64 kernel is fine
Aug 16 14:49:32 * javispedro has even gotten v86 to work by first dropping from long mode then going into v64.
Aug 16 14:49:36 <javispedro> *v86.
Aug 16 14:49:57 <javispedro> contradicting the microsoft idiots that say that lack of wow16 on amd64 is because it is not supported by the processor.
Aug 16 14:50:14 <javispedro> and not because they couldn't be arsed to support it any longer and found the perfect excuse: blaming AMD .
Aug 16 14:51:20 <jacekowski> i don't see a problem here
Aug 16 14:51:27 <jacekowski> at some point you just have to break compatibility
Aug 16 14:51:38 <jacekowski> and ideally if you can blame somebody else
Aug 16 14:51:49 <javispedro> exactly
Aug 16 14:52:00 <javispedro> they could blame someone else so they did.
Aug 16 14:52:16 <javispedro> now everytime they try to sell me that marketing bluff of the lengths they go for backwards compatibility I laugh
Aug 16 14:52:40 <jacekowski> well, they did for quite a long time
Aug 16 14:52:51 <jacekowski> they could have decided to leave 32bit whatsoever
Aug 16 14:53:39 <SpeedEvil> Oooh! Free invite to microsofts app store thingy.
Aug 16 14:53:47 <SpeedEvil> I shall! ... totally ignore it.
Aug 16 14:53:54 <jacekowski> give it to me
Aug 16 14:54:03 <lcuk> SpeedEvil, i got one of those this morning
Aug 16 14:54:16 <javispedro> MS will eventually make it free for all
Aug 16 14:54:21 <jacekowski> i think i'll buy that WP7 version of N9
Aug 16 14:54:27 <SpeedEvil> f you have not heard the good news yet, we are happy to tell you that we are now offering a free Microsoft App Hub registration for the first one year to those Nokia Developer PRO and Launchpad members who are registered Ovi publishers in the countries that Microsoft supports on the App Hub .
Aug 16 14:54:45 <Stskeeps> SpeedEvil: i almost threw up when i read that
Aug 16 14:54:49 <SpeedEvil> :/
Aug 16 14:56:39 <Venemo_N950> SpeedEvil, yeah I got one too and I may also use the opportunity
Aug 16 14:57:01 <Venemo_N950> why not seize some money from those dumb wp7 lovers?
Aug 16 14:57:38 <psycho_oreos> the question is, how much?
Aug 16 14:57:43 <SpeedEvil> Indeed - I'm a bit conflicted about the whole WP7 thing.
Aug 16 14:57:43 <MohammadAG> Countries supported: US, United States, and the United States of America
Aug 16 14:57:55 <Appiah> haha
Aug 16 14:58:05 <SpeedEvil> The marketplace really does need a third player. 
Aug 16 14:58:26 <SpeedEvil> I'd of course like that to be maemo/meego/slackware - but...
Aug 16 14:58:35 <javispedro> Stskeeps: wait until they offer you the free WP7 phone.
Aug 16 14:58:38 <crashanddie> So... Google buys Motorola, and Microsoft buys Nokia... I guess that leaves Apple to buy Samsung.
Aug 16 14:58:49 <javispedro> Stskeeps: Searay MeegoCE? ;)
Aug 16 14:59:03 <Stskeeps> javispedro: actually, i could be interested from the POV of err.. consumer research
Aug 16 14:59:25 <Stskeeps> it's good to know the competition
Aug 16 14:59:28 <psycho_oreos> heh Apple to buy the manufacturing company that they once sued for copyright infringements
Aug 16 14:59:29 <SpeedEvil> In fact - one of my 'almost ideal' marketplaces would be one where you were free to rip the software off the phone and stick meego on.
Aug 16 14:59:34 <psycho_oreos> err patent infringments*
Aug 16 14:59:34 <SpeedEvil> Even if not shipped by vendors.
Aug 16 14:59:39 <javispedro> Stskeeps: :)
Aug 16 14:59:54 <Stskeeps> SpeedEvil: mine would be a decentralized approach
Aug 16 14:59:55 <javispedro> the hardware might be better than the N9's for all I know
Aug 16 15:00:06 <Stskeeps> marketplaces may exist, but apps can be picked up in the wild
Aug 16 15:00:09 <SpeedEvil> psycho_oreos: The samsung galaxy tab is being blocked from import into the EU at the moment due to apple complaints.
Aug 16 15:00:27 <nid0> the block's just been lifted
Aug 16 15:00:31 <nid0> except in germany
Aug 16 15:00:47 <javispedro> crashanddie: Apple buys http://www.nokianfootwear.fi/
Aug 16 15:00:48 <SpeedEvil> Stskeeps: I'm unsure. I see the point in app-stores that actually do security and safety checking.
Aug 16 15:00:51 <psycho_oreos> with a locked bootloader I don't think there's much fun in booting meego on a wp7 only device.. Even if you hacked it to boot meego, you're still going to love that `hot' windows logo button
Aug 16 15:00:56 <SpeedEvil> Stskeeps: for the 'mass market' at least.
Aug 16 15:01:34 <SpeedEvil> Stskeeps: The baggage that comes along almost inherently - not so much.
Aug 16 15:01:51 <psycho_oreos> SpeedEvil, lol they're trying to stop that here in .au as well whilst filing ITC for patent infringement.. It'll be quite a funny irony that Apple does buy Samsung but I really don't see that as a likely possibility
Aug 16 15:02:09 <psycho_oreos> s/for/on/
Aug 16 15:02:09 <infobot> psycho_oreos meant: SpeedEvil, lol they're trying to stop that here in .au as well whilst filing ITC on patent infringement.. It'll be quite a funny irony that Apple does buy Samsung but I really don't see that as a likely possibility
Aug 16 15:02:49 <crashanddie> Thing is
Aug 16 15:02:57 <crashanddie> At the moment, there's nothing that makes me go "oooooh"
Aug 16 15:03:00 <crashanddie> Not the new tablets
Aug 16 15:03:14 <crashanddie> Not the new ipads, ipods, macbooks, htpcs, whatever.
Aug 16 15:03:21 <crashanddie> Not the new arduinos
Aug 16 15:03:23 <SpeedEvil> The ipad is shiny hardware.
Aug 16 15:03:30 <crashanddie> There's nothing "fun".
Aug 16 15:03:34 <SpeedEvil> It's a bit expensive though.
Aug 16 15:03:44 <crashanddie> Well, I have one at work
Aug 16 15:03:48 <crashanddie> And... it's boring.
Aug 16 15:03:49 <MohammadAG> the sun's shiny and free
Aug 16 15:03:51 <hiemanshu> crashanddie: maybe buy some shoes? :P
Aug 16 15:03:56 * javispedro dislikes tablets
Aug 16 15:04:00 <psycho_oreos> and it features proprietary USB connector, walled garden for software approach, does not have proper USB connector
Aug 16 15:04:01 <SpeedEvil> There are lots of cool chips out there. But they all have bery limited help.
Aug 16 15:04:06 <crashanddie> hiemanshu, I've got enough shoes, no worries there mate.
Aug 16 15:04:20 <crashanddie> hiemanshu, I wear 3 to 4 pairs of shoes per day on average ;)
Aug 16 15:04:27 <hiemanshu> crashanddie: hah ok
Aug 16 15:04:28 <MohammadAG> crashanddie, lies, you've never been there
Aug 16 15:04:32 <SpeedEvil> For example - a microcontroller with bluetooth for $3, with lots and lots of pins. But the dev environment is $3k
Aug 16 15:04:38 <crashanddie> MohammadAG, eh?
Aug 16 15:05:14 <MohammadAG> the sun isn't boring
Aug 16 15:05:15 <jacekowski> SpeedEvil: TI does that
Aug 16 15:05:28 <jacekowski> companies that are developer/engineer hostile should just disappear
Aug 16 15:05:32 <crashanddie> MohammadAG, I probably spend more time per day in the sun than you ;)
Aug 16 15:06:13 * psycho_oreos doesn't see any interesting value for money with tablets: cannot upgrade internal hardware, cannot run full fledged OS of user's choice, cannot do virtualisation like a normal PC and worst off, in the case with Apple's iPad, one always needs to buy devices compatible with it both in hardware and software terms
Aug 16 15:06:32 <MohammadAG> crashanddie, true, I'm a night-kind of person
Aug 16 15:06:38 <crashanddie> well, that's the case with pretty much every single tablet, psycho_oreos.
Aug 16 15:06:49 <MohammadAG> crashanddie, try spending the day on the sun, it's a bit fun
Aug 16 15:07:04 <hiemanshu> psycho_oreos: upgrade internal hardware I agree, rest are just lies
Aug 16 15:07:10 <hiemanshu> there are lots of tabs that can do that
Aug 16 15:07:29 <psycho_oreos> crashanddie, heavily enforced in Apple's case but you're right. This is why I just don't see much fun with tablets apart from slim factor and literally noisefree
Aug 16 15:07:34 <crashanddie> MohammadAG, You do realise that my office has a 180 degrees panorama and I get blasted by the sun from 8 till 11 and 15 till 10, right?
Aug 16 15:07:36 <SpeedEvil> jacekowski: To some degree, they're not the worst by far though. (above is cambridge silicon radios) NXP is silly that way too.
Aug 16 15:07:52 <SpeedEvil> jacekowski: Though they keep offering me free samples of 100W 2.8GHz FETs. 
Aug 16 15:08:01 <psycho_oreos> hiemanshu, what.. run vmware/virtualbox? :) What about iPad's proprietary connector?
Aug 16 15:08:31 <hiemanshu> psycho_oreos: I am not taking about iPad, I am talking about tabs in general
Aug 16 15:08:47 <psycho_oreos> I've heard lots of evil things from NXP but I couldn't recall what they were.. it was something about how they dipped themselves in the ATM machine realm
Aug 16 15:09:24 <niv_> MohammadAG: hi there
Aug 16 15:09:53 <psycho_oreos> hiemanshu, that still leaves half the points unresolved, I have yet to see a tablet device able to run a more full fledged virtualisation such as vmware/virtualbox. Wine/dosbox for instance doesn't count
Aug 16 15:10:00 <niv_> say, did anyone use h-e-n to connect a usb wifi and run hostapd?
Aug 16 15:10:21 <ErwinJunge> niv_: Why?
Aug 16 15:10:29 <MohammadAG> hi
Aug 16 15:10:36 <hiemanshu> psycho_oreos: I recall one from acer, that has a Core2Duo with VT-d
Aug 16 15:10:37 <psycho_oreos> drain batteries quicker ;)
Aug 16 15:10:37 <niv_> my google tv doesnt "see" the mobilehotspot ad-hoc wifi connection
Aug 16 15:10:45 <ErwinJunge> afaik it's already possible to use your n900 as an ap
Aug 16 15:10:47 <ErwinJunge> ah
Aug 16 15:10:57 <hiemanshu> psycho_oreos: VT-x
Aug 16 15:11:07 <niv_> so I need a device in wifi master mode, one way is to connect a zd devce
Aug 16 15:11:12 <niv_> its usb
Aug 16 15:11:35 <psycho_oreos> ErwinJunge, that AP mode isn't true AP mode, its ad-hoc and can only do WEP protection (can someone yell weak please? :))
Aug 16 15:11:37 <niv_> ErwinJunge: not in master mode
Aug 16 15:11:59 <psycho_oreos> hiemanshu, that tablet which can connect to `base' to act like a normal netbook?
Aug 16 15:12:11 <ErwinJunge> Considering that it's such a specific usecase, I doubt you'll find anyone who's tried. Just go for it and report your findings :)
Aug 16 15:12:19 <hiemanshu> psycho_oreos: nope, there was another acer one, this KDE guy from Canada had it
Aug 16 15:13:08 <ErwinJunge> I know it's only adhoc and wep, but for my limited use it's always been good enough. 3G often isn't encrypted either, so you really shouldn't use your phone's connection for anything critical...
Aug 16 15:13:27 <lupine_85> ...
Aug 16 15:13:37 <psycho_oreos> h-e-n for instance stops BME, which won't give any one any useful indication how much battery is being chewed whilst its active. USB devices are notoriously heavy on host CPU.
Aug 16 15:13:44 <nid0> theres the asus eee slate as well, that has a core i5 chip, can handle virtualisation just fine
Aug 16 15:13:51 * lupine_85 puts most of his mobile data through an openvpn tunnel
Aug 16 15:14:04 <lupine_85> works for foreign government-owned telcos and local APs as well
Aug 16 15:14:52 <ErwinJunge> lupine_85: That would work and in that case the last little hop over wep is a problem, true.
Aug 16 15:14:55 <psycho_oreos> hiemanshu, hm running c2d eh? that's news for me for a tablet device. It must probably only offers less than a day of regular usage whilst on battery? *snickers*
Aug 16 15:15:17 <lupine_85> given how trivial it is to set up a simple shared-secret OpenVPN tunnel, I don't know why everyone doesn't
Aug 16 15:15:18 <hiemanshu> psycho_oreos: lasts a decent 6-ish hours, which is not that bad
Aug 16 15:15:25 <lupine_85> obviously, mobile IP is better
Aug 16 15:15:35 <lupine_85> but that involves *herk* IPSec
Aug 16 15:16:21 <psycho_oreos> not that its not to be used for anything critical but the point of being fleeced is another thing that could get you into strife as well
Aug 16 15:16:55 <psycho_oreos> hiemanshu, *nods* so maybe less usage than N900 when compared to equivalent usage terms? ;)
Aug 16 15:17:45 <hiemanshu> psycho_oreos: well yeah, but you can have a full fledged OS on it, and such, its pretty decent if you are a designer
Aug 16 15:19:54 <psycho_oreos> hiemanshu, and this is one of those aspire/travelmate series?
Aug 16 15:20:24 <hiemanshu> psycho_oreos: not sure, never seen it before
Aug 16 15:22:40 <psycho_oreos> hiemanshu, from my google searches just a moment ago, it seems like they're nothing more than a regular netbook/notebook with twistable screen. Sure no grudges against that but surely that just blurs the line of what defines a tablet from Apple's point of view versus the PC realm's point of view. *shrugs* in either case I suppose its always been like that. I was under the assumption it would be more Apple's sort of ideology for tablet
Aug 16 15:23:28 <psycho_oreos> though nid0's remark on Asus Eee slate looks more like an Apple inspired sort of tablet based computers (no physical hardware, no twistable screens, etc)
Aug 16 15:23:31 <hiemanshu> psycho_oreos: well, there is once, I am pretty sure, not that I try to recall, I dont think it was Acer damn, well I'll try to get you the exact details if you want me to ask
Aug 16 15:23:43 <hiemanshu> one*
Aug 16 15:24:05 <hiemanshu> ugh, that came out wrong :/
Aug 16 15:24:28 <hiemanshu> psycho_oreos: well I am pretty sure this one, I just cant recall the exact brands and such of it, I can ask if you want me to
Aug 16 15:25:00 <psycho_oreos> hiemanshu, nah its all good, I was rather skeptical of such a slim form factor device could actually be capable of having a somewhat regular CPU being shoehorned into it.
Aug 16 15:26:00 <psycho_oreos> in the end I would still prefer carrying a large (almost desktop replacement) laptop instead. That with a twistable screen into tablet would be nice but that's just my personal point of view
Aug 16 15:29:07 <psycho_oreos> afaik in SE Asian markets, Acer is seen as a cheaper device mob than compared to Asus, in a way that its kinda like Toyota is the cheaper, maybe features less luxury items as Lexus for instance.
Aug 16 15:41:46 <Nido> I find the acer's usually are on par in reards of luxeries with the asus stuff. The difference in my opinion is, keeping the car analogy, that the asus just breaks down  after 20000 miles
Aug 16 15:42:55 <jacekowski> what?
Aug 16 15:43:21 <jacekowski> somebody i know who worked for minimal wage at laptop repair place
Aug 16 15:43:26 <jacekowski> asus was the most reliable brand
Aug 16 15:44:08 <jacekowski> and mysef i have asus laptop
Aug 16 15:44:10 <jacekowski> used and abused
Aug 16 15:44:21 <jacekowski> i mean, i was using it to warm my bed
Aug 16 15:44:38 <jacekowski> so it ran very often at 100C for hours
Aug 16 15:45:51 <jacekowski> and it's already 1.5 year out of warranty and it's still working
Aug 16 15:50:07 <Nido> yes, I fucked up. The ACER is the brand that reliably fatally fails 3 months after the warrenty. I've had 1 year warrenty ASUS laptops that ran perfectly acceptable for 5 years
Aug 16 15:50:46 <Nido> and I ran gentoo on it; it was on at least 8 hours a day; and most of the time it was compiling something
Aug 16 15:50:47 <Shapeshifter> So how do I encode a video on the device using mencoder? they say on the wiki mencoder 6PTK1nLcuAA.flv -oac mp3lame -ovc lavc  -lavcopts vcodec=mpeg4:mbd=1:vbitrate=300 -vf scale=352:208  -ffourcc DIVX -o outfile.avi is supposed to work but that gives me "MPlayer was compiled without libmp3lame support."
Aug 16 15:51:34 <GAN900> Laptops with TN screens are a waste of electricity.
Aug 16 15:52:03 <MohammadAG> recompile it with libmp3lame support
Aug 16 15:52:13 <SpeedEvil> Shapeshifter: -oac help . -oac lavc -lavccodec=mp3 or something may work
Aug 16 15:52:18 <SpeedEvil> But that
Aug 16 15:52:26 <Shapeshifter> MohammadAG: oh smart
Aug 16 15:52:58 <ErwinJunge> Shapeshifter: why would you want to do that? seems like it would be awfully slow
Aug 16 15:52:59 <DocScrutinizer> hey, all the cracks are online, eh?
Aug 16 15:53:28 <Shapeshifter> SpeedEvil: thanks
Aug 16 15:53:36 <DocScrutinizer> so again my request: please post facts and thoughts about "indicator LED failing in sunlight" issue
Aug 16 15:54:00 <jacekowski> indicator LED is almost invisible in sunlight
Aug 16 15:54:08 <DocScrutinizer> nah, it FAILS
Aug 16 15:54:18 <jacekowski> impossibe
Aug 16 15:54:22 <DocScrutinizer> yeah
Aug 16 15:54:27 <jacekowski> hmm, very very unlikely
Aug 16 15:54:37 <jacekowski> i mean LED could behave like a fotocell
Aug 16 15:54:45 <DocScrutinizer> nevertheless I've witnesses it 5 days long at CCCamp
Aug 16 15:54:48 <SpeedEvil> More likely it's turning off to save power.
Aug 16 15:54:49 <jacekowski> so with very sensitive driver it could generate enough electricity to damage it
Aug 16 15:54:52 <SpeedEvil> As it can't be seen.
Aug 16 15:54:59 <SpeedEvil> (by some persons jugement)
Aug 16 15:55:21 <ErwinJunge> SpeedEvil: Save power by turning off one led?
Aug 16 15:55:33 <DocScrutinizer> it gets friggin dim, green is almost invisible *in the dark*, red is completely off, as is blue it seems
Aug 16 15:55:41 <ErwinJunge> A bit pointless, don't you think?
Aug 16 15:55:48 <SpeedEvil> Oh - n900
Aug 16 15:55:57 <SpeedEvil> I've never seen it do that
Aug 16 15:56:16 <DocScrutinizer> I suspect / blame temperature compensation inside LP5523
Aug 16 15:56:29 <DocScrutinizer> or inside mce
Aug 16 15:57:00 <psycho_oreos> so even if turned your N900 upside down in the sunlight it won't help?
Aug 16 15:57:05 <DocScrutinizer> though IIRC it didn't even work for power-up yellow indication
Aug 16 15:57:23 <DocScrutinizer> psycho_oreos: it was even broken after sunset
Aug 16 15:57:30 <DocScrutinizer> in a completely dark tent
Aug 16 15:57:44 <DocScrutinizer> I thought it killed my LED
Aug 16 15:57:55 <ErwinJunge> How long before it worked again?
Aug 16 15:58:03 <DocScrutinizer> I have *NO* good story what caused this issue
Aug 16 15:58:16 <ErwinJunge> Not that I have any idea what's happening, but it's nice to know I don't have to panic when it eventually happens to me :)
Aug 16 15:58:42 <DocScrutinizer> ErwinJunge: I think one night at ~4'o it worked. In the 'morning' it didn't
Aug 16 15:58:46 <psycho_oreos> DocScrutinizer, for me it was seconds to get it back to normal LED brightness level, though I've only left it out in direct sunlight on and off for total of maybe 20-30 mins
Aug 16 15:58:50 <DocScrutinizer> as it didn't at midnight
Aug 16 16:00:04 <psycho_oreos> I thought it was light sensor but I never bother getting to the bottom of it. It was apparent to me when after knocking off work and heading back home (driving) I left my N900 sitting in the passenger seat
Aug 16 16:00:11 <DocScrutinizer> NFC if it's a thermal effect, or a fsckup in MCE, or a weird LED_plays_photovoltaic, or whatever
Aug 16 16:00:41 * psycho_oreos contemplates on having the N900 upside down next time and see if the LED brightness level still changes
Aug 16 16:00:46 <DocScrutinizer> I tend to blame thermal effects
Aug 16 16:01:14 <ErwinJunge> It's only an indicator, right? So if it does fail it's not that important?
Aug 16 16:01:18 <psycho_oreos> *nods* well that wouldn't help in any case with the device being put inside a hot car for a brief moment :)
Aug 16 16:01:23 <DocScrutinizer> LED way hotter than LP5523, or sth
Aug 16 16:01:44 <psycho_oreos> it is important if you want to see the status of your device without having the screen on
Aug 16 16:02:03 <DocScrutinizer> ErwinJunge: given the fact it's the *nly* indicator, it is just bad enough if it fails
Aug 16 16:02:10 <ErwinJunge> Never really use it anyway, only during charging.
Aug 16 16:02:21 <psycho_oreos> there's a program in extras-devel that allows you to set indicator for charge levels
Aug 16 16:02:38 <DocScrutinizer> it signals missed calls, device on status, whatnot else
Aug 16 16:02:42 <ErwinJunge> Yeah, noticed that. Don't care so much though :)
Aug 16 16:03:12 <psycho_oreos> battery low status (if one installs that program from extras-devel as well)
Aug 16 16:03:12 <ErwinJunge> I know what it does, just doesn't seem very critical to me. I tend to open my phone when I pick it up ;)
Aug 16 16:03:16 <DocScrutinizer> and I had that annoying strange effect on both of my N900
Aug 16 16:03:51 <ErwinJunge> But we're veering wildly off topic here. I'll shut up now and let people explain what happened to DocScrutinizer's led
Aug 16 16:03:58 <psycho_oreos> I hardly take both my N900 out, but I guess now I'm not alone with this issue as well
Aug 16 16:04:07 <DocScrutinizer> ErwinJunge: I don't pick my phone up each time I pass by, when it sits there charging
Aug 16 16:04:27 * ErwinJunge silently points up ;)
Aug 16 16:05:54 <DocScrutinizer> I noticed the green "charged" indication showed as dim as "visible when you hold the device to touch your eye's lens", and all random noisy brightness
Aug 16 16:07:05 <psycho_oreos> I guess if the device is capable of detecting higher than average ambient temperatures and compensates the lighting level for LED, it sort of makes sense. It is trying to prevent LED running at max PWM and risk getting damaged despite higher than average ambient temperatures noted.
Aug 16 16:08:13 <DocScrutinizer> psycho_oreos: sounds reasonable, yes
Aug 16 16:09:41 <jurop88> hi all
Aug 16 16:09:47 <psycho_oreos> again, I'm really tempted to give my initial theory a try, having N900 flipped upside down in a bid to prevent a lower PWM emitting level. I won't be able to get a proper result until Thursday as I believe natural lighting and even potentially higher than average temperatures could be the cause.
Aug 16 16:10:01 <DocScrutinizer> the "funny" part though is I never noticed that behaviour when device got endogen hot, e.g by heavy 3G usage etc
Aug 16 16:10:08 <jurop88> anybody with hints on ramzez/compcache on N900?
Aug 16 16:10:17 <psycho_oreos> and Thursday is when I get to go to work, driving 20-30 mins.
Aug 16 16:10:59 <DocScrutinizer> psycho_oreos: the difference would be the LED itself sitting on a relatively cool place in that case, while LP5523 still as hot as it got in my tent
Aug 16 16:11:01 <psycho_oreos> its probably getting its ambient temperature readings elsewhere, or maybe having values cross referenced by another sensor but I wouldn't know to be honest
Aug 16 16:11:30 <jurop88> from time to time I saw the argument mentioned on irc and tmo
Aug 16 16:12:21 <jurop88> but no clear pointers if it could deserve or not some efforts
Aug 16 16:13:06 <psycho_oreos> DocScrutinizer, wait lemme get this straight, LP5523 = keyboard lights, not the multi-coloured LED light right? If that's the case there's some distance between the two.. maybe they are controlled by different chipsets and obtain their information or whatever elsewhere
Aug 16 16:13:12 <DocScrutinizer> jurop88: it got implemented by some users here IIRC. Also it seems N9(50) harmattan has it OOTB
Aug 16 16:13:46 <DocScrutinizer> psycho_oreos: LP5523 controlls both kbd BL _and_ 3color ind-LED
Aug 16 16:13:50 <psycho_oreos> some distance = maybe 10cm *snickers*
Aug 16 16:13:53 <psycho_oreos> ahh
Aug 16 16:14:36 <DocScrutinizer> 6 kbd led, "3" ind-LED == the max of 9 LEDs a LP5523 can handle
Aug 16 16:15:33 <DocScrutinizer> the chip is on main-PCB (iirc), the ind-LED is... well you know where it is
Aug 16 16:15:33 <jurop88> DocScrutinizer: ty
Aug 16 16:15:40 <DocScrutinizer> jurop88: yw
Aug 16 16:16:24 <DocScrutinizer> jurop88: maybe some user will pop up here and tell about their efort to implement compcache etc into powerkernel
Aug 16 16:16:58 <psycho_oreos> heh I haven't dived far enough to understand those, though surely if LP5523 gets as hot as your tent in that case, surely the keyboard LED would probably be affected in some ways? if not maybe for the 3 indicator LED run on a different MCE settings due to the nature of their design (i.e. they may not be able to take as much ambient temperature as those on the keyboard LED)?
Aug 16 16:16:59 <DocScrutinizer> ShadowJK: jacekowski: ^^^^ was this one of you who bothered about it?
Aug 16 16:17:05 <psycho_oreos> yup
Aug 16 16:17:07 <DocScrutinizer> cehteh: you? ^^^^
Aug 16 16:17:48 <DocScrutinizer> psycho_oreos: yes, possibly
Aug 16 16:18:20 <SpeedEvil> IIRC my LED worked just fine at 57C
Aug 16 16:18:23 <jurop88> DocScrutinizer: I'll try opening a thread on TMO
Aug 16 16:18:48 <SpeedEvil> (GPS loggig in greenhouse)
Aug 16 16:18:57 <jurop88> DocScrutinizer: I am looking for something to keep my mind running
Aug 16 16:18:59 <DocScrutinizer> psycho_oreos: my idea is along the line: LP5523 temp compensation works as long as ind-LED is not at same temp as chip
Aug 16 16:19:36 <TimmyT> i've connected my N900 to my PC, then run gparted, but i see it shows that 27 GB partition as unallocated. Why?
Aug 16 16:19:55 <DocScrutinizer> Shapeshifter: jacekowski cehteh: compcache et al that is
Aug 16 16:20:51 <psycho_oreos> DocScrutinizer, *nod* so there's definitely a light/ambient heat sensor somewhere.
Aug 16 16:20:52 <DocScrutinizer> TimmyT: connection to PC does NOT expose *raw* device, so using partitioning tools this way is 'nonsense'
Aug 16 16:21:03 <DocScrutinizer> psycho_oreos: inside LP5523
Aug 16 16:21:37 <psycho_oreos> SpeedEvil, 3 indicator LED? and with the device's screen facing up against the natural light?
Aug 16 16:21:45 <psycho_oreos> DocScrutinizer, ahh
Aug 16 16:21:48 <DocScrutinizer> it doesn't make sense this contraption fails when ind-LED is actually same temp as chip
Aug 16 16:22:30 <DocScrutinizer> but anyway it's the only straight story I could come up with
Aug 16 16:22:47 <TimmyT> so wat will happen if i make partition here?
Aug 16 16:22:59 <DocScrutinizer> you'll ruin your MyDocs
Aug 16 16:23:43 <jurop88> DocScrutinizer: Tigerite probably was the one, found something on TMO
Aug 16 16:23:44 <TimmyT> im asking cuz im going to install nitdroid on my device and on its internal storage 
Aug 16 16:24:04 <DocScrutinizer> good luck!
Aug 16 16:24:46 <TimmyT> so how can i shrink it into 2 different partitions?
Aug 16 16:24:55 <DocScrutinizer> hmmm
Aug 16 16:25:41 <psycho_oreos> there's sfdisk
Aug 16 16:25:49 <DocScrutinizer> there *should* be some instructions on tmo about it
Aug 16 16:26:08 <DocScrutinizer> but it's not simple anyway
Aug 16 16:26:32 <psycho_oreos> you don't actually shrink, iirc you just create two separate partition
Aug 16 16:26:56 <psycho_oreos> hmm if you have busybox-power, there's fdisk which imo is much friendlier than sfdisk
Aug 16 16:27:28 <TimmyT> no, i don't, seems i've to use sfdisk
Aug 16 16:27:30 <DocScrutinizer> PFFF messybox-power, an antinom
Aug 16 16:28:44 <psycho_oreos> antinom?
Aug 16 16:29:00 <psycho_oreos> there's also parted as well
Aug 16 16:29:43 <TimmyT> is it possible to install/use/port android apps on maemo?
Aug 16 16:30:19 <DocScrutinizer> green crimson 
Aug 16 16:30:44 <DocScrutinizer> is an antinom
Aug 16 16:34:20 <x29a> TimmyT: id say porting is possible ;)
Aug 16 16:36:10 <TimmyT> that's great :D, so isn't there any group of users or any project for this? like a website that its users port famous apps of android for maemo
Aug 16 16:36:12 <TimmyT> ?
Aug 16 16:39:43 <psycho_oreos> TimmyT, http://www.myriadgroup.com/Device-Manufacturers/Android-solutions/Alien-Dalvik.aspx
Aug 16 16:44:24 <ErwinJunge> TimmyT: wouldn't that require having the source code for those famous apps?
Aug 16 16:45:03 <TimmyT> of course source codes are needed
Aug 16 16:46:42 <psycho_oreos> good luck in getting those then
Aug 16 16:47:27 <ErwinJunge> I'd say we've found the reason there's no group of users or project for this :) You'll never get the source for those famous apps.
Aug 16 16:47:55 <TimmyT> i mean somethin like teamviewer or some free/opensource projects like that
Aug 16 16:48:03 <psycho_oreos> obviously, its as useful as asking nokia for source codes on its proprietary softwares
Aug 16 16:48:44 <psycho_oreos> there's no point getting source codes if the existing codebase to run it off hasn't been made or isn't stable
Aug 16 16:49:50 <ErwinJunge> TimmyT: a quick google shows that it's free for non-commercial use, but it doesn't say "here's the source"
Aug 16 16:51:15 <ErwinJunge> That would be the "free as in beer, not free as in speech" variety of free
Aug 16 16:52:51 <TimmyT> so it rly sucks :D, i don't like to use apps that their source codes are not published, so it seems andorid isn't a real gnu/linux project and yeah i win the struggle yesterday i had with my friend in LUG, he said android is better than any other OS and i said no, now it seems it is not as free as gnu/linux is.
Aug 16 16:55:37 <Sicelo> maemo also isn't
Aug 16 16:56:08 <TimmyT> for what?
Aug 16 16:56:46 <Sicelo> isn't as free as gnu/linux
Aug 16 16:57:14 <ErwinJunge> No phone OS is
Aug 16 16:57:30 <psycho_oreos> openmoko might be
Aug 16 16:57:36 <ErwinJunge> Maemo does come closest though
Aug 16 16:57:41 <GAN950> Sicelo, more of it is than many others.
Aug 16 16:57:51 <ErwinJunge> No realistic phone OS is (better?)
Aug 16 16:58:39 <TimmyT> GAN950 is right
Aug 16 16:58:58 <TimmyT> maemo is better than iOS
Aug 16 16:59:01 <Sicelo> meego even more so
Aug 16 16:59:04 <TimmyT> but wat about meego?
Aug 16 16:59:58 <psycho_oreos> android is better than iOS, android doesn't even have that walled garden approach
Aug 16 17:00:04 <TimmyT> yeah, seems meego is more, but it seems intel doesn't develop it for mobile devices anymore, just for netbooks and tablets and other things
Aug 16 17:00:08 <fizzie> I recall an openmoko user complaining there was some binary blob driver in there somewhere. But that was years ago.
Aug 16 17:01:29 <psycho_oreos> intel is only keen in manufacturing processors rather than a full fledge mobile device.
Aug 16 17:01:57 <TimmyT> is openmoko a dead project?
Aug 16 17:02:01 <psycho_oreos> no
Aug 16 17:02:24 <TimmyT> so is there any stable release to install on n900?
Aug 16 17:02:37 <psycho_oreos> what stable release
Aug 16 17:03:10 <TimmyT> stable release of openmoko
Aug 16 17:03:17 * psycho_oreos facepalms
Aug 16 17:05:15 <DocScrutinizer> fizzie: there is a blob for GFX on openmoko
Aug 16 17:05:51 <DocScrutinizer> just like on your desktop PC for your high-end GFX card
Aug 16 17:06:23 <psycho_oreos> correction intel is only keen in manufacturing chipsets as well as processors. In addition to that, they flaunted their moorestown based CPU, x86 on a device roughly the size of a mobile phone. Aava mobile was as such a recent user of intel CPU on mobile
Aug 16 17:06:26 <DocScrutinizer> TimmyT: no, OM the distro is dead. There's SHR though
Aug 16 17:07:23 <psycho_oreos> and I can imagine one will have plent of fun installing OM the distro on N900
Aug 16 17:08:09 <fizzie> An openmoko user sounds like the sort of person who doesn't have any blobs on their desktop.
Aug 16 17:08:52 <DocScrutinizer> TimmyT: and there's no such thing like OpenMoko 'project', it's more like OM_the_INC (now building video portal web applications), OM2008_the_distro (obsoloete), and OM_the_community (still alive, see SHR/FSO, #openmoko-cdevel)
Aug 16 17:09:09 <luke-jr_> OpenMoko revived?
Aug 16 17:10:03 <DocScrutinizer> luke-jr_: eh?
Aug 16 17:10:20 <luke-jr_> dunno, talk about OpenMoko makes me hope there's a new one :P
Aug 16 17:10:24 <luke-jr_> maybe I'm desperate
Aug 16 17:10:56 <psycho_oreos> I think we're sort of seeing the dying embers of openmoko :p the last I checked hardware community seems to be fairly active
Aug 16 17:10:59 <DocScrutinizer> oh yeah, obviously you are :-P
Aug 16 17:11:03 <DocScrutinizer> http://openmoko.com/
Aug 16 17:11:57 <DocScrutinizer> http://www.freesmartphone.org//
Aug 16 17:13:33 <DocScrutinizer> http://shr-project.org/trac
Aug 16 17:13:43 <DocScrutinizer> /join #openmoko-cdevel
Aug 16 17:16:24 <MOUD> hello
Aug 16 17:20:06 <MOUD> i have installed the community ssu update on my phone and then installed MobileHotspot (using FAP). everytime i try Start the hotspot it gives me the error "Hotspot failed to start". Can anyone help me fix it?
Aug 16 17:20:35 <DocScrutinizer> don't use FAP
Aug 16 17:21:07 <DocScrutinizer> it's known to fail for anything beyond mere basics 
Aug 16 17:22:04 <trumee> jacekowski: TLS with sip is working fine on N900 now.
Aug 16 17:22:37 <MOUD> i see. i tried downloading Power Kernel but it conflicts with 4 packages (according to App Manager). Is there any solution?
Aug 16 17:22:51 <jacekowski> install it from terminal
Aug 16 17:23:33 <MOUD> can u share the command plz?
Aug 16 17:24:36 <trumee> jacekowski: unfortunately no sRTP support :(, http://www.mail-archive.com/farsight-devel@lists.sourceforge.net/msg00575.html
Aug 16 17:24:37 <jacekowski> i don't remember
Aug 16 17:24:42 <jacekowski> apt-get install something
Aug 16 17:24:54 <jacekowski> you have to google what that something is exactly
Aug 16 17:25:03 <jacekowski> iirc it was something like power-kernel-flasher
Aug 16 17:25:06 <jacekowski> or something like that
Aug 16 17:25:11 <MOUD> ok, tks
Aug 16 17:25:23 <DocScrutinizer> when it conflicts, odds are you are killing yur system on force-installing
Aug 16 17:25:34 <DocScrutinizer> use HAM!!
Aug 16 17:25:43 <rly> So, I flashed it, but now I just see a kind of loading screen. 
Aug 16 17:25:46 <DocScrutinizer> FAP is KNOWN to fail on powerkernel
Aug 16 17:26:13 <MOUD> ok i will
Aug 16 17:26:44 <MOUD> btw, is community ssu update worth installing?
Aug 16 17:26:59 <DocScrutinizer> yes, probably it is
Aug 16 17:27:29 <DocScrutinizer> It should at least - hope the guys have fixed some of the major issues I complained about
Aug 16 17:28:35 <DocScrutinizer> nevertheless you may want to create a backup of /usr/bin/camera-ui.launch prior to installing cssu - I guess this bit still didn't make it yet into most recent cssu rev
Aug 16 17:30:34 <DocScrutinizer> there are some really kinky things in cssu, one of them - as referred to here - being the forced "upgrade" to a new camera UI that can't get reverted except by a complete reflash. Though camera-ui absolutely isn't a component that qualifies for inclusion to cssu
Aug 16 17:31:43 <DocScrutinizer> backup camara-ui.launch binary so you have a chance to rollback to stock camera if you don't like the new one
Aug 16 17:32:08 <rly> How do I play FM radio on this thing?
Aug 16 17:32:16 <rly> I am in the mediaplayer.
Aug 16 17:32:24 <rly> It should list FM somewhere.
Aug 16 17:32:33 <rly> (according to the FM)
Aug 16 17:32:42 <DocScrutinizer> I suggested cssu upgrade process shall do that automatically, but I think the guys didn't bother to include it to latest rev
Aug 16 17:32:45 <rly> (that was a pun)
Aug 16 17:33:07 <DocScrutinizer> for FM radio you need radio app
Aug 16 17:33:13 <DocScrutinizer> it's not in mediaplayer
Aug 16 17:33:41 <scoobertron> DocScrutinizer: is there a way I can tell if I am up to date with cssu?  I installed it a while back, but have not been notified of any updates.  Also, is there a testing version I can track?
Aug 16 17:34:09 <rly> DocScrutinizer: where can I find this application?
Aug 16 17:34:11 <DocScrutinizer> scoobertron: in settings there's an "about CSSU" look there for version, compare
Aug 16 17:34:19 <DocScrutinizer> rly: in HAM
Aug 16 17:34:24 <rly> DocScrutinizer: or is it not included by default?
Aug 16 17:34:34 <DocScrutinizer> no you need to install it
Aug 16 17:34:48 <rly> ,HAM
Aug 16 17:34:52 <rly> ,flash
Aug 16 17:34:56 <DocScrutinizer> hildon app manager
Aug 16 17:35:16 <rly> DocScrutinizer: do I need to root it to do that?
Aug 16 17:35:31 <rly> I also should not be asking all these questions here. 
Aug 16 17:35:37 <DocScrutinizer> rly: WTF are U talking bout??
Aug 16 17:35:49 <DocScrutinizer> root maemo?? what's that?
Aug 16 17:36:20 <rly> DocScrutinizer: basically install some application which allows one to get root.
Aug 16 17:36:28 <DocScrutinizer> pffff
Aug 16 17:36:37 <rly> There was some website which said you needed to install something to do that.
Aug 16 17:36:41 <DocScrutinizer> install rootsh if you haven't done yet
Aug 16 17:36:46 <rly> Right, that one.
Aug 16 17:37:16 <DocScrutinizer> and no, you don't need root access to install FM-Radio pkg in HAM
Aug 16 17:38:18 <DocScrutinizer> basically you never need root access for the level of things you are interested in, judging to your questions here
Aug 16 17:38:57 <DocScrutinizer> so my advice would be you don't even bother about rootsh until you know why you would need it
Aug 16 17:39:47 <DocScrutinizer> odds are you kill your system rather than do anything you planned to do, when using root access indiscriminately
Aug 16 17:40:15 <DocScrutinizer> learn to use the plain system prior to bithering about "rooting"
Aug 16 17:42:23 <DocScrutinizer> rly: unlike windows crap you got a proper installation management on linux, and you don't need C to install B to use A, usually
Aug 16 17:42:44 <rly> DocScrutinizer: believe it or not, but I am a very competent Linux user.
Aug 16 17:42:56 <DocScrutinizer> you don't need to find libs to make acme-app work, app manager will take care about all that for you
Aug 16 17:42:56 <rly> DocScrutinizer: I just am not much of a smartphone user.
Aug 16 17:43:31 <rly> My adhoc network seems to be extremely sluggish. 
Aug 16 17:43:38 <MOUD> hello again
Aug 16 17:44:07 <MOUD> after installing power-kernel-flasher, hotspot worked again :)
Aug 16 17:44:09 <DocScrutinizer> rly: old running gag: N900 is _not_ a phone
Aug 16 17:44:17 <rly> Is there anything I can do to improve that?
Aug 16 17:44:26 <MOUD> tks  Doc and jacekowski 
Aug 16 17:44:36 <DocScrutinizer> yw
Aug 16 17:44:54 <DocScrutinizer> MOUD: HAM would've taken care about all that
Aug 16 17:45:05 <DocScrutinizer> FAPman doesn't
Aug 16 17:45:40 <DocScrutinizer> it fails on certain system level packages
Aug 16 17:45:42 <MOUD> DocScrutinizer: HAM didnt, it said that there were conflicting packages. I tried both HAM and FAP before asking
Aug 16 17:46:36 <DocScrutinizer> MOUD: if there are conflicting packages then you have a probelm that won't go away by forcing sth to install despite the conflicts
Aug 16 17:46:56 <DocScrutinizer> you are increasing number and complexity of your problems
Aug 16 17:47:26 <rly> Ok, it seems that it is more of a directional access point.
Aug 16 17:47:40 <DocScrutinizer> while A migght work now, odds are you broke B, C, and D by force-installing
Aug 16 17:47:40 <MOUD> DocScrutinizer: actually apt-get solved the problem, now im using MobileHotspot on my laptop (was using XCHAT from my n900)
Aug 16 17:47:40 <rly> (the one provided by Linux)
Aug 16 17:49:00 <DocScrutinizer> conflicts are sth you should resolve and ask for help if you can't get it solved
Aug 16 17:49:49 <DocScrutinizer> usually there's a bug somewhere that is causing these conflicts, or you followed a incorrect procedure to install sth previously
Aug 16 17:50:08 <rly> Do I also have to install the hildon app manager?
Aug 16 17:50:16 <rly> I got rootsh now.
Aug 16 17:50:22 <DocScrutinizer> it comes OOTB
Aug 16 17:50:39 <MOUD> btw, is MEEGO worth installing? (is it the same version of N9?)
Aug 16 17:50:52 <rly> Ok, and where can I find it? I didn't see it anywhere and I have in the menus tons of times now.
Aug 16 17:50:56 <DocScrutinizer> it's the only way to install *anything* on a plain maemo fremantle system
Aug 16 17:51:26 <rly> I got it.
Aug 16 17:51:53 <rly> It says there are conflicts.
Aug 16 17:52:00 <wmarone> MOUD: the software on the N9 and MeeGo are mostly unrelated
Aug 16 17:52:06 <DocScrutinizer> MOUD: no, not same as N9. And probably no, not worth it for you (yet)
Aug 16 17:52:28 <MOUD> i see
Aug 16 17:52:36 <rly> 'conflict with applicationpackages: Maemo 5 (3.2010.02-8)
Aug 16 17:52:58 <rly> ', that's a translation of what I get.\
Aug 16 17:52:58 <DocScrutinizer> wut?
Aug 16 17:53:11 <DocScrutinizer> power-kernel?
Aug 16 17:53:37 <rly> 'Cannot install 'FM Radio Player'' followed by the stuff I wrote above.
Aug 16 17:53:43 <DocScrutinizer> duh
Aug 16 17:54:01 <DocScrutinizer> sounds like your system needs an update *urgently*
Aug 16 17:54:29 <rly> DocScrutinizer: where can I find the latest (this seemed the latest available)?
Aug 16 17:54:30 <DocScrutinizer> 3.2010.02-8 looks to me like PR1.1 or sth, not PR1.3 aka recent
Aug 16 17:54:53 <DocScrutinizer> rly: honest advice? reflash
Aug 16 17:55:33 <DocScrutinizer> though you *might* still be able to update SSU OTA, it's quite possibly a lengthy and PITA procedure
Aug 16 17:55:57 <DocScrutinizer> like taking hours instead of minutes the reflash will take
Aug 16 17:56:07 <rly> DocScrutinizer: ok, never mind. I see what I did wrong.
Aug 16 17:56:18 <DocScrutinizer> :-D
Aug 16 17:56:48 <rly> I have no idea what SSU OTA means, though.
Aug 16 17:56:48 <DocScrutinizer> did a apt-get distupgrade ?
Aug 16 17:57:04 <mgedmin> "Seamless Software Update Over The Air"
Aug 16 17:57:04 <DocScrutinizer> Seamless Softaware Update - Over The Air
Aug 16 17:57:06 <rly> No, does it come with apt-get by default?
Aug 16 17:57:24 <mgedmin> maemo uses apt-get (which is why installing/upgrading packages is so damn slow)
Aug 16 17:57:29 <DocScrutinizer> yes, but you better don't usually use it
Aug 16 17:57:54 <DocScrutinizer> and doinf a distupgrade surely will kill your system
Aug 16 17:58:21 <rly> Ah, cool, people who understand that apt-get is not the best system imaginable.
Aug 16 17:58:37 <DocScrutinizer> it's the only one we got
Aug 16 17:59:00 <rly> DocScrutinizer: nix is better in many ways.
Aug 16 17:59:14 <rly> Just less popular and less packages.
Aug 16 17:59:30 <DocScrutinizer> and HAM works on top of it, while adding additional checks and magic to make sure things will stay consistent
Aug 16 18:00:33 <DocScrutinizer> while FAPman doesn't do a comprehensive set of that additional magic, that's why it frequently renders your sw management and system in an inconsistent state
Aug 16 18:01:36 <DocScrutinizer> usin apt directly is a sure way to break things if you don't know your way around some of the special maemo idiosyncrasies as well as general apt usage
Aug 16 18:01:52 <rly> I think my wifi is the largest problem. I should get a real access point. 
Aug 16 18:02:08 <rly> How fast can you transfer stuff if the wifi access point is 100Mb?
Aug 16 18:02:25 <DocScrutinizer> yoh, a decent AP with proper support for WLAN PSM is essential
Aug 16 18:02:34 <rly> What is PSM?
Aug 16 18:02:42 <DocScrutinizer> power savings mode
Aug 16 18:02:59 <rly> Does that save power on the phone?
Aug 16 18:03:04 <DocScrutinizer> yes
Aug 16 18:03:14 <rly> That sounds ... non-trivial.
Aug 16 18:03:28 <DocScrutinizer> by aggregating data to large chunks and sending it on a scheduled basis
Aug 16 18:04:01 <DocScrutinizer> so device can go asleep for fractions of seconds or even several seconds
Aug 16 18:05:06 <DocScrutinizer> efects of broken PSM are stalling connections, packet loss, or huge delays in the range of up to minutes
Aug 16 18:05:21 <mgedmin> hm
Aug 16 18:05:38 <DocScrutinizer> or you config PSM to "none" on your N900 and watch battery getting eaten in hours
Aug 16 18:05:51 <mgedmin> broken PSM seems to be noticeable mostly with things like inbound SSH into your n900
Aug 16 18:06:10 <mgedmin> I don't think I ever noticed any problems when connections were initiated on the n900 itself
Aug 16 18:06:23 <DocScrutinizer> sure, it's most relevant for inbound data streams
Aug 16 18:06:23 <rly> Is PSM an 'advanced' feature or does basically every AP have it these days?
Aug 16 18:06:56 <DocScrutinizer> rly: should be a comon feature, but there are quite a number of borked implementations
Aug 16 18:07:04 <lupine_85> fewer packages compared to what ?
Aug 16 18:07:06 <mgedmin> in theory PSM should be transparent; in practice many APs implement it incorrectly and you end up being unable to, e.g., ping your n900
Aug 16 18:07:41 <DocScrutinizer> lupine_85: ??
Aug 16 18:07:57 <rly> mgedmin: which models do work?
Aug 16 18:08:04 <mgedmin> that's a good question
Aug 16 18:08:15 <lupine_85> <rly> Just less popular and less packages.
Aug 16 18:08:18 <mgedmin> "none of mine, apparently" is the only answer I can give you :)
Aug 16 18:08:21 <DocScrutinizer> seems there's no decent compatibility list
Aug 16 18:08:34 <rly> A melons market.
Aug 16 18:08:39 <rly> How annoying.
Aug 16 18:08:42 <DocScrutinizer> my d-link dir-615 seems to work
Aug 16 18:08:53 <nid0> not sure about the current gen, but no older netgears play nicely
Aug 16 18:09:22 <DocScrutinizer> also dependent on firmware version on AP I guess
Aug 16 18:09:39 * lupine_85 wonders about his openwrt'd buffalo with atheros
Aug 16 18:09:55 <lupine_85> Luci doesn't expose it
Aug 16 18:09:59 <DocScrutinizer> openwrt should probably 'just work'
Aug 16 18:10:05 * mgedmin has an openwrt'ed buffalo wrt-g500nh or something like that
Aug 16 18:10:18 <DocScrutinizer> meh
Aug 16 18:10:23 <DocScrutinizer> a PITA
Aug 16 18:10:51 <DocScrutinizer> bottom line: keep the coupon when you buy a new AP
Aug 16 18:11:15 <DocScrutinizer> test PSM instantly, if it fails just return device to seller
Aug 16 18:11:23 <mgedmin> how do you test PSM?
Aug 16 18:11:45 <mgedmin> other than "notice that _sometimes_ -- but not always -- things don't work when you want them to work"
Aug 16 18:11:46 <rly> Does that work? "Contrived feature X does not work => it is broken." 
Aug 16 18:11:59 <mgedmin> intermittent brokenness is hard to diagnose :(
Aug 16 18:12:08 <DocScrutinizer> to test PSM you could ssh in to N900 from your PC, and see if it has delays or stalls after some 60..500s of inactivity
Aug 16 18:12:17 <rly> They simply will connect it and show a laptop connected to it or their phone in a different setting.
Aug 16 18:12:39 <DocScrutinizer> you should disable all concurrent internet access on N900 while you test
Aug 16 18:12:50 <DocScrutinizer> as that would prevent WLAN to even enter PSM
Aug 16 18:14:15 <DocScrutinizer> so DO NOT run skype, or IM, or anything like that, while you test PSM via the ssh-in method
Aug 16 18:15:14 <rly> How long should the battery last if you just use it as a phone?
Aug 16 18:15:33 <DocScrutinizer> you should see delay from key press to char appearing on screen of your PC in the ssh window, of >0.2 and <2 seconds
Aug 16 18:15:45 <DocScrutinizer> rly: some 5..8 days
Aug 16 18:16:17 <ErwinJunge> Hm... that PSM thing explains why I can't SSH in without opening a webpage first on the phone.
Aug 16 18:16:19 <rly> DocScrutinizer: and it halfs every year?
Aug 16 18:16:37 <rly> (that's what laptop batteries do at least)
Aug 16 18:16:54 <ErwinJunge> 5-8 days? Wow. I'm only getting approx 1 day..
Aug 16 18:17:44 <DocScrutinizer> http://wiki.maemo.org/N900_Hardware_Power_Consumption
Aug 16 18:18:15 <DocScrutinizer> ErwinJunge: exactly
Aug 16 18:18:54 <DocScrutinizer> ErwinJunge: set PWM to none in settings-WLAN-advanced to test the difference
Aug 16 18:19:21 <DocScrutinizer> ErwinJunge: 1 day is about normal when you also have enabled GPRS
Aug 16 18:19:23 <ErwinJunge> difference in ssh responsiveness, or in power usage?
Aug 16 18:19:41 <ErwinJunge> Ah, I count gprs as "just use it as a phone"
Aug 16 18:19:42 <DocScrutinizer> responsiveness
Aug 16 18:20:09 <DocScrutinizer> ErwinJunge: see theURL ^^^
Aug 16 18:22:55 <ErwinJunge> Interesting measurements. Apparantly having good 3G signal costs me 8mA extra.
Aug 16 18:24:34 <ErwinJunge> I am going to test the PWM thing btw, but need to wait for the connection to drop first (had a running ssh connection, which sends keepalive packets)
Aug 16 18:29:06 <DocScrutinizer> regarding compatibility list I strongly suggest all users care to update http://wiki.maemo.org/Wifi_power_saving_mode#Routers_known_to_be_incompatible_with_PSM_mode with their findings
Aug 16 18:31:42 <ErwinJunge> Hm... crap. Just tested, but it was still alive. It's hard to know when to test :) When should it go into PSM?
Aug 16 18:33:09 <DocScrutinizer> immediately if there's PSM max configured and no data traffic active - I.E. after some few seconds
Aug 16 18:33:56 <DocScrutinizer> the borkedness of your particular AP firmware's PSM implementation might show up only occasionally though
Aug 16 18:34:21 <DocScrutinizer> usually it's a matter of scheduling getting out of pace
Aug 16 18:37:44 <DocScrutinizer> anyway a >> while sleep 10; do ping -c 1 192.168.1.1; done << started on N900 should fix quite a number of problems with broken PSM in AP
Aug 16 18:38:22 <DocScrutinizer> you just want to stop this whenever changing to GPRS connection
Aug 16 18:38:36 <DocScrutinizer> ;-D
Aug 16 18:38:50 <RST38h> "This further reinforces our belief that opportunities for the growth of Nokia's smartphone business will be greatest with Windows Phone. This could prove to be a massive catalyst for the Windows Phone ecosystem. Additionally, with our respective intellectual property portfolios, Nokia and Microsoft are working together to build and nurture an innovative ecosystem that benefits consumers, operators, developers and other device manufacturers."
Aug 16 18:40:03 <Nido> how do i benefit from not being able to inspect the kernel as a developer, operator, or consumer?
Aug 16 18:40:03 <DocScrutinizer> RST38h: so why are you trying to cause me nausea by spamming me with such marketing speak crap?
Aug 16 18:40:09 <mase76> hi! there is uboot for power v46. but the changelog of the kernel says, that uboot has been disabled. what is right now?
Aug 16 18:40:50 <RST38h> Doc: Just hoping you will throw up and then thank me for cleaning your stomach =)
Aug 16 18:41:11 <DocScrutinizer> mase76: uboot is an independent system that happens to be packaged together with arbitrary kernels
Aug 16 18:41:20 <Nido> mase76: I recall there are different uboot's for different kernels. I am not sure of that though
Aug 16 18:41:45 <mase76> so it works with v46?
Aug 16 18:42:05 <DocScrutinizer> ""this box contains: 1 pcs kernel power V46; one pcs uboot""
Aug 16 18:42:55 <DocScrutinizer> there may be other boxes containing uboot + different kernels, as well as boxes that don't contain uboot at all
Aug 16 18:44:25 <mase76> i am not sure, if maemo with v46 will boot with uboot installed.
Aug 16 18:44:28 <DocScrutinizer> so a package labeled uboot+PK46 most likely is exactly that: a working PK46 plus a uboot in one box
Aug 16 18:46:01 <DocScrutinizer> you can't get uboot without any associated kernel coming with it
Aug 16 18:46:23 <mase76> and a changelog in v46 that says: disable u-boot as causes too much trouble
Aug 16 18:46:28 <DocScrutinizer> except for uboot source to build yur own uboot+kernel package
Aug 16 18:47:00 <DocScrutinizer> mase76: doesn't mean anything except the box content changed
Aug 16 18:47:58 <DocScrutinizer> the v46 powerkernel that comes in the box labeled uboot+PK46 will most likely work with uboot
Aug 16 18:50:45 <mase76> ok thx!
Aug 16 18:57:54 <rly> I went to maemo.org/rootsh again, pressed the install button, but nothing happens. 
Aug 16 18:58:29 <rly> It seems to load it and then does not do anything.
Aug 16 18:58:46 <rly> Flashing deletes all applications, right?
Aug 16 18:59:51 <rly> I can visit other pages, e.g. the community page just fine.
Aug 16 19:00:12 <Venemo> rly, why don't you install from app manager?
Aug 16 19:00:26 <rly> Venemo: because that one says no applications are available.
Aug 16 19:00:36 <rly> Venemo: likely because no repos are configured.
Aug 16 19:00:51 <Venemo> hm
Aug 16 19:00:56 <Venemo> extras should be there by default
Aug 16 19:00:59 <rly> With the other image installing applications from the website worked.
Aug 16 19:05:37 <rly> I think the most annoying thing is that I cannot see how fast it is working.
Aug 16 19:05:50 <rly> E.g. easily visible signal quality, etc.
Aug 16 19:06:01 <rly> KB/s transferred, etc.
Aug 16 19:06:10 <rly> Likely all of these have solutions. 
Aug 16 19:14:58 <Nido> I think I have a problem. I tried to flash my phone. I took out the battery, put it back in, ran 'flasher-3.5 -F RX-51_2009SE_10.2010.13-2.VANILLA_PR_EMMC_MR0_ARM.bin -f' and attached the phone while pressing 'u'. The flash went for ~20% and then returned to shell. trying again returns 'SU_GET_UPDATE_STATUS_REQ terminated with error code 1.'; trying 'flasher-3.5 -F RX-51_2009SE_20.2010.36-2_PR_COMBINED_MR0_ARM.bin -f' seems to just list its contents (it 
Aug 16 19:15:14 <rly> Venemo: any idea?
Aug 16 19:15:59 <rly> How can I install an application if maemo.org's install button  does not work and the application manager does not list any application?
Aug 16 19:16:08 <rly> I am using the latest image.
Aug 16 19:17:05 <Venemo> rly, can you tell me which firmware version you are runnin?
Aug 16 19:17:43 <rly> RX-51_2009SE_20.2010.36-2_PR_COMBINED_MR0_ARM
Aug 16 19:18:07 <rly> Ok, the download is stuck at 0.14KB
Aug 16 19:18:33 <rly> No idea as to why.
Aug 16 19:18:38 <rly> I can browse anything else.
Aug 16 19:19:08 <Venemo> rly, please launch the app manager, and open the menu, then see what repositories are there.
Aug 16 19:19:18 <Venemo> rly, there should be a "maemo.org" repo
Aug 16 19:19:39 <Venemo> then you should update the list and you should be able to install rootsh from there.
Aug 16 19:19:51 <rly> Venemo: it works now
Aug 16 19:20:03 <rly> Venemo: not maemo, though.
Aug 16 19:20:35 <rly> Venemo: (the install button)
Aug 16 19:21:14 <rly> It seemed that the wifi connection for downloading the 7MB was fairly fast.
Aug 16 19:21:30 <rly> I.e., not limited by my ad hoc AP or the device.
Aug 16 19:21:50 <rly> Just installation takes long (nothing new for you)
Aug 16 19:34:57 <Nido> fixed. removed the battery and tried again
Aug 16 19:35:32 <rly> Ok, this works... great :)
Aug 16 19:40:10 <mase76> <DocScrutinizer: the device does not boot with uboot-power. i reflashed nolo and the stock kernel to make it boot again.
Aug 16 19:40:46 <DocScrutinizer> reflashed NOLO? WTF?
Aug 16 19:41:45 <mase76> that was the only way.
Aug 16 19:44:14 <DocScrutinizer> mase76: sorry to hear you got problems. I can't imagine the uboot+pk46 pkg didn't work for anybody though. If HAM doesn't include the pk46-modules and pk46-flasher packages, then it's a broken dependency. If you did install with sth different than HAM, it's a problem of that tool. If you install pk46 first, then install uboot+pk46 package on top of that, I'd guess it shall work anyway, no matter if there are dependency problems. If that 
Aug 16 19:44:16 <DocScrutinizer> still doesn't work for you, we had to look closer into what's wrong with that package
Aug 16 19:44:59 <mase76> i did so. installed uboot afterwards.
Aug 16 19:45:28 <DocScrutinizer> mase76: your statement that flashing of stock keenl made it work again leads me to the conclusion the matching modules for PK46 didn't get installed
Aug 16 19:45:48 <DocScrutinizer> kernel*
Aug 16 19:48:10 <DocScrutinizer> make sure you install the matching kernel-modules package along with the kernel (or kernel+uboot) package
Aug 16 19:49:16 <DocScrutinizer> installing a kernel always comprises of kernel, kernel-flasher, kernel-modules. I.E. three pkgs that need to get installed in a certain sequence
Aug 16 19:49:30 <rly> Do I need to do anything special to get the GPS to work?
Aug 16 19:49:43 <rly> Or does it just suck a lot?
Aug 16 19:49:50 <DocScrutinizer> inserting a SIM helps a lot usually
Aug 16 19:50:02 <rly> DocScrutinizer: are you serious?
Aug 16 19:50:14 <DocScrutinizer> plain view to sky also is kinda mandatory
Aug 16 19:50:26 <rly> DocScrutinizer: I had plain view to sky.
Aug 16 19:50:34 <DocScrutinizer> not just stright up but from horizon to horizon
Aug 16 19:51:15 <DocScrutinizer> rly: look at my avatar, do I look like I had any humour? ;-P
Aug 16 19:51:31 <rly> DocScrutinizer: this is IRC, there are no avatars. 
Aug 16 19:51:44 <rly> But on some imaginary forum, there probably are.
Aug 16 19:51:56 <DocScrutinizer> rly: so ok, yes I'm serious about SIM helping a lot with TTFF for GPS
Aug 16 19:52:24 <rly> DocScrutinizer: do you also know why that is?
Aug 16 19:52:36 <rly> ~TTFF
Aug 16 19:52:40 <DocScrutinizer> otherwise installing and starting location test GUI app also helps
Aug 16 19:52:43 <ShadowJK> time to first fix
Aug 16 19:52:51 <angelox|laptop> Hi all
Aug 16 19:53:19 <rly> DocScrutinizer: what is the package name of that test GUI?
Aug 16 19:53:19 <ShadowJK> Yeah definitely, "Ovi Maps" has ADHD and stops trying after screen blanks or you switch away from it, or...
Aug 16 19:53:30 <DocScrutinizer> ~TTFF is Time To First Fix, a GPS related term
Aug 16 19:53:31 <infobot> DocScrutinizer: okay
Aug 16 19:53:37 <angelox|laptop> i've low battery(solid red light) and uboot installed,how should i proceed to charge it? Since leaving in wall charger,it powers up but don't boot maemo
Aug 16 19:54:08 <ShadowJK> solid yellow?
Aug 16 19:54:10 <DocScrutinizer> rly: something like "location test GUI"
Aug 16 19:54:32 <angelox|laptop> solid red
Aug 16 19:54:36 <mase76> modules were installed.
Aug 16 19:54:39 <ShadowJK> how do you get red..
Aug 16 19:55:12 <DocScrutinizer> angelox|laptop: solid red means your system already booted to NOLO, and detected some problem with battery
Aug 16 19:55:33 <mase76> i have a working power kernel v46 now with nolo. you mean, installing uboot will work now?
Aug 16 19:55:34 <DocScrutinizer> I.E. your battery is broken
Aug 16 19:55:41 <rly> How do I input 
Aug 16 19:55:45 <rly> 'DEL' btw?
Aug 16 19:55:48 <ErwinJunge> Regarding the "insert a sim for better gps", does it get the ephemeris over 3g or something?
Aug 16 19:56:04 <DocScrutinizer> mase76: should, if the PK version is the same, yes
Aug 16 19:56:15 <ShadowJK> ErwinJunge, initial position estimate, and almanac, atleast
Aug 16 19:56:27 <angelox|laptop> DocScrutinizer: Battery Broken? I got this phone about 1 mounth ago :(
Aug 16 19:56:47 <ErwinJunge> But that's not that much info, and officially valid for 180 days. Why not just store that on the phone?
Aug 16 19:57:20 <DocScrutinizer> angelox|laptop: there are known cases of early failure of components, in fact those are more frequently than after some burn in time
Aug 16 19:57:39 <ShadowJK> in Maemo4 it was stored, and the last known position was used as initial position :)
Aug 16 19:57:45 <DocScrutinizer> ErwinJunge: the phone doesn't know where it is
Aug 16 19:57:57 <ErwinJunge> I meant the almanac
Aug 16 19:58:00 <DocScrutinizer> ErwinJunge: and the info isn't really valid for 180 days
Aug 16 19:58:04 <ShadowJK> no idea what maemo5 does
Aug 16 19:58:10 <ErwinJunge> In terms of position, just use last known
Aug 16 19:58:23 <angelox|laptop> DocScrutinizer: And what can i do? ''''Please don't tell me cry :)''''
Aug 16 19:58:27 <ErwinJunge> As long as you don't move a quite large amount, it shouldn't matter
Aug 16 19:58:40 <DocScrutinizer> angelox|laptop: try alien charging
Aug 16 19:59:09 <DocScrutinizer> try another battery on N900, just to make sure it's battery related issue
Aug 16 19:59:26 <ShadowJK> angelox|laptop, what happens to me when battery is empty with uboot, is that I get solid yellow, then uboot starts, uboot starts meego, meego doesn't know how to charge empty battery, phone dies, solid yellow, uboot starts, etc... To break out of that I type "run noloboot" at the uboot prompt (which might be with screen backlight off) to boot maemo, which does seem to charge empty battery successfully
Aug 16 19:59:30 <ErwinJunge> Almanac is officially valid for 180 days, but you're probably going to use the gps more than twice a year. What I'm going for here is that I don't see a point for the sim card, apart from the first fix ever.
Aug 16 19:59:41 <DocScrutinizer> ErwinJunge: yes, but that's obviously not how it works on N900 GPS
Aug 16 19:59:49 <mase76> kernel-power_2.6.28-maemo46_armel.deb  -> uboot-power_0.2-1_armel.deb
Aug 16 20:00:08 <angelox|laptop> DocScrutinizer: ok,since almost no one has N900 at Brazil,that will be hard!
Aug 16 20:00:11 <DocScrutinizer> ~gsm-agps
Aug 16 20:00:12 <infobot> rumour has it, rrlp is the Radio Resource LCS (Location Service) Protocol as specified first in GSM TS 04.31, or http://security.osmocom.org/trac/wiki/RRLP
Aug 16 20:00:19 <ErwinJunge> DocScrutinizer: let me guess, this is one of those closed Nokia parts of the phone?
Aug 16 20:00:33 <ShadowJK> I've tried GPS in offline mode a few times on my spare n900, and it has worked on the windowsill
Aug 16 20:00:41 <angelox|laptop> Shadowjk: Yes,that is more like i'm having,the red light shows when i unplug the charger ! let me try
Aug 16 20:00:48 <DocScrutinizer> ErwinJunge: it's even inside modem
Aug 16 20:01:05 <ErwinJunge> Hm... nasty design choice there
Aug 16 20:01:16 <ShadowJK> or a TI part connected to the Nokia modem, connected to the TI OMAP3 cpu :)
Aug 16 20:02:17 <DocScrutinizer> ShadowJK: yes, sounds reasonable (uboot->meego issue)
Aug 16 20:02:33 <rly> Shouldn't that stuff work in hardware?
Aug 16 20:02:54 <DocScrutinizer> charging? no, alas not
Aug 16 20:03:23 <rly> I thought he was talking about the location service.
Aug 16 20:03:42 <DocScrutinizer> err
Aug 16 20:03:50 <mase76> and uboot depends on kernel-power-modules (= 2.6.28-maemo46). so there was no missing modules problem.
Aug 16 20:03:56 <rly> GPS is pretty expensive, AFAIK.
Aug 16 20:04:16 <ErwinJunge> The computations are. Where you get the initial info is a simple design choice.
Aug 16 20:04:18 <rly> Fairly sharp timings have to be reached.
Aug 16 20:04:19 <ShadowJK> Charging in hardware works, more or less, until the point where there's enough power to boot. At that point control is handed over to the operating system, and if it fails, charging also fails :)
Aug 16 20:04:23 <ErwinJunge> Software GPS is all but impossible.
Aug 16 20:04:34 <rly> ErwinJunge: and in an FPGA?
Aug 16 20:04:47 * timeless chuckles
Aug 16 20:04:55 <timeless> so, i'm using w7 w/ my n900 to connect to the internet
Aug 16 20:05:05 <timeless> the name of the connection is `wind`
Aug 16 20:05:07 <timeless> the status of the connection is ... `wind`
Aug 16 20:05:27 <timeless> other networks have statii like `Disabled`, `Not connected`, `Network cable unplugged`
Aug 16 20:05:30 <ErwinJunge> I'm don't really know a lot about FPGA.
Aug 16 20:05:30 <Nido> wait. gps is receiving time signals and calculating the location from the difference. where should this be so expensive it requires an fpga, rly ?
Aug 16 20:05:47 <DocScrutinizer> mase76: with a working uBoot you should see the uboot menu at startup, with a working powerkernel you shall see bootmessages as that kernel comes with bootconsole
Aug 16 20:05:55 <Pali> X-Fade, are you here?
Aug 16 20:06:11 <mase76> i see "loading kernel", then the n900 powers off.
Aug 16 20:07:07 <DocScrutinizer> ErwinJunge: FPGA still are powerhogs
Aug 16 20:07:13 <ErwinJunge> Nido: Because it involves computing the convolution of a 1024 bit pattern against background noise and seeing if you get a 1. Then you have to keep that fix and if you lose it for even one bit, you have to start over. Now do this for at least 4, but usually 8, sats at the same time.
Aug 16 20:07:37 <ErwinJunge> The 1024 might be wrong there btw
Aug 16 20:07:44 <ErwinJunge> My GPS class was about 3 years ago
Aug 16 20:08:06 <DocScrutinizer> Nido: it's abit more complex than just "receive timing signal" when you want to decode signals at -150dB
Aug 16 20:08:09 <SpeedEvil> ErwinJunge: Not quite that bad - usually your local timebase can keep you in sync even if you miss several databits.
Aug 16 20:08:46 <ErwinJunge> SpeedEvil: your local timebase is never accurate enough. Hence the need for at least 4 sats.
Aug 16 20:08:49 <SpeedEvil> ErwinJunge: And of course, you don't need to be able to demodulate individual bits for the signal to be useful for remaining locked to.
Aug 16 20:09:00 <DocScrutinizer> ErwinJunge: yes and no
Aug 16 20:09:07 <SpeedEvil> ErwinJunge: Sure - but it doesn't drift out in one bit-time.
Aug 16 20:09:14 <Pali> Hello, is there someone who understand garage autobuilder and can help me with autobuilder errors?
Aug 16 20:09:29 <DocScrutinizer> local timebase not exact enough for absolute timing, but more than sufficient for 'clock'
Aug 16 20:09:36 <ErwinJunge> At this time I'd like to reiterate my previous disclaimer: My GPS class was 3 years ago and I haven't done anything in the field since :)
Aug 16 20:10:29 <DocScrutinizer> though you have to do the iteration over several sats at unknown doppler shifts
Aug 16 20:10:36 <ErwinJunge> Anyways, the short answer is "you need hw for gps". I'm pretty sure this is still valid.
Aug 16 20:10:48 <DocScrutinizer> and that is what makes things difficult
Aug 16 20:11:26 <DocScrutinizer> you have a LOT of possible input signal patterns and you will find IF one pattern is actually there only by running it thru a correlator
Aug 16 20:11:48 <DocScrutinizer> ErwinJunge: yes :-D this is a valid statement
Aug 16 20:12:52 <SpeedEvil> You get software GPSs
Aug 16 20:13:04 <DocScrutinizer> there are concepts of just storing the 'raw noise' from receiver together with e.g. a photo snapshot, and do all the heavy computations later on
Aug 16 20:13:38 * DocScrutinizer waves
Aug 16 20:15:18 <rly> What is the default sudo password?
Aug 16 20:16:02 <rly> (and is there any problem in inputting the wrong password numerous times?)
Aug 16 20:16:08 <NIN101> there is no default sudo password
Aug 16 20:16:39 <NIN101> (technically the root password what you mean) 
Aug 16 20:16:40 <ShadowJK> rly, there is none. You go to application manager, titlebar menu -> application catalogues. "maemo.org" or something like that, make sure that the "Disabled" is *un*ticked. Save, ok, ok, "Download" from main menu in app manager, start typing in "rootsh" and install that. Then when you've got it installed, "root" or "sudo gainroot" gets you root.
Aug 16 20:16:52 <rly> I did sudo apt-get install location-test-gui, but nothing happened. 
Aug 16 20:16:57 <rly> OK
Aug 16 20:17:39 * ErwinJunge waves back
Aug 16 20:17:44 <ErwinJunge> Why are we waving?
Aug 16 20:18:04 <mase76> DocScrutinizer: i think, the packages don't play together. i need uboot, because i am doing experiments with debian on the device. otherwise i cannot use the power-kernel.
Aug 16 20:18:07 <DocScrutinizer> rly: you're supposed to use HAM, not apt-get
Aug 16 20:18:23 <rly> DocScrutinizer: location-test-gui was not listed. 
Aug 16 20:18:30 <ShadowJK> It's in the tools repo
Aug 16 20:18:35 <DocScrutinizer> mase76: strange
Aug 16 20:18:45 <ruskie> http://www.theregister.co.uk/2011/08/16/samsung_tab/ <-- hmm
Aug 16 20:19:11 <DocScrutinizer> mase76: you got a package called uboot-pk46? and it doesn't work?
Aug 16 20:19:34 <rly> ShadowJK: there is a web address field, a distribution, and a 'parts/components' field. 
Aug 16 20:19:44 <rly> ShadowJK: what exactly is the 'tools' repo?
Aug 16 20:20:48 <mase76> however i did not retry. i am glad, that i got it to boot again without a complete reflash. the package is called uboot-power_0.2-1_armel.deb.
Aug 16 20:21:31 <ShadowJK> sec
Aug 16 20:22:08 <ShadowJK> http://wiki.maemo.org/Documentation/devtools/maemo5
Aug 16 20:22:46 <DocScrutinizer> rly: http://wiki.maemo.org/User:Joerg_rw/tools  see the "don't click as it will burn your cat" link
Aug 16 20:23:22 <ShadowJK> http://wiki.maemo.org/Root_access if you want root access. But keep in mind that although maemo5 might look like debian sometimes, it's not, and things you'd expect to work on debian might make it unbootable. Like "apt-get update; apt-get upgrade" ;p
Aug 16 20:23:22 <DocScrutinizer> joerg.cloud-7.de/repositories.install
Aug 16 20:24:17 <DocScrutinizer> mase76: that's the problem, you are not installing via HAM obviously
Aug 16 20:24:56 <mase76> no, dpkg -i...
Aug 16 20:25:01 <DocScrutinizer> I told you the real install consists of THREE .deb
Aug 16 20:25:27 <ShadowJK> Are kernels one of those things that are only installable through the application manager? ;p
Aug 16 20:25:45 <DocScrutinizer> basically yes
Aug 16 20:26:14 <DocScrutinizer> unless you understand which three .deb to install via dpkg -i, in which sequence
Aug 16 20:27:05 <mase76> http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=894983 from on #413
Aug 16 20:27:31 <DocScrutinizer> I already told here it's sth like PK-kernel.deb PK-kernel-flasher.deb PK-kernel-modules.deb
Aug 16 20:28:03 <DocScrutinizer> meh, won't go there to do ... what?
Aug 16 20:28:58 <mase76> maybe an hw revision issue. i have 2104.
Aug 16 20:29:04 <DocScrutinizer> no
Aug 16 20:29:13 <rly> http://wiki.maemo.org/Documentation/devtools/maemo5 does not contain the word location-test
Aug 16 20:29:41 <DocScrutinizer> damn, can you listen? installing any kernel consists of flashing THREE packages, otherwise it won't work
Aug 16 20:31:34 <mase76> i got the three packages installed.
Aug 16 20:31:42 <DocScrutinizer> rly: http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=37359
Aug 16 20:32:00 <mase76> ok, i will try with ham...
Aug 16 20:32:04 <rly> DocScrutinizer: That was were I was 30 minutes ago.
Aug 16 20:32:15 <rly> DocScrutinizer: I was unable to download the linked .deb.
Aug 16 20:32:41 <rly> DocScrutinizer: and that is also not via HAM.
Aug 16 20:32:47 <angelox|laptop> ShadowJK: uboot hangs at "Starting Kernel...",i also can see the orange/yellow led blinking(like it's charging),but after about 10 secounds,it rebbots
Aug 16 20:32:55 <angelox|laptop> s/rebbots/reboots
Aug 16 20:32:57 <DocScrutinizer> http://repository.maemo.org/pool/maemo5.0/non-free/l/location-test-gui/location-test-gui_0.92-1+0m5_armel.deb WFM
Aug 16 20:33:26 <mase76> angelox|laptop: same here
Aug 16 20:33:51 <Atarii> is there a readily available to download sources.list with all the extra/testing/devel repos already in it?
Aug 16 20:33:53 <DocScrutinizer> rly: maybe location-test-gui is not available via HAM, though I think it should, if you have the right repo set up
Aug 16 20:34:13 <angelox|laptop> mase76: and you're trying also to fix?
Aug 16 20:34:35 <rly> DocScrutinizer: I have been using that address, but it does not receive data.
Aug 16 20:34:41 <ShadowJK> rly, that wikipage only lists a handfull applications in the testing repo. More importantly it has the instructions for how to activate it at the bottom
Aug 16 20:34:50 <DocScrutinizer> rly: it works here
Aug 16 20:35:10 <mase76> angelox|laptop: i think, it is a hw revision issue. no problems with the stock kernel, even installed with dpkg.
Aug 16 20:35:41 <rly> DocScrutinizer: it works here too; via my laptop, not via the phone.
Aug 16 20:35:42 <DocScrutinizer> rly: wget http://repository.maemo.org/pool/maemo5.0/non-free/l/location-test-gui/location-test-gui_0.92-1+0m5_armel.deb
Aug 16 20:35:48 <DocScrutinizer> hmm
Aug 16 20:36:00 <rly> DocScrutinizer: is wget on the phone by default?
Aug 16 20:36:04 <DocScrutinizer> yes
Aug 16 20:36:09 <DocScrutinizer> think so
Aug 16 20:36:32 <mase76> rly: no, it isn't.
Aug 16 20:36:39 <rly> That is going to be a pain to type in.
Aug 16 20:36:50 <rly> Perhaps an ssh server on the phone might be a better idea.
Aug 16 20:37:02 <DocScrutinizer> hah yeah
Aug 16 20:37:04 <DocScrutinizer> sure
Aug 16 20:37:30 <NIN101> the wiki really needs some spam protection...
Aug 16 20:38:11 <rly> Can I install the ssh server via HAM?
Aug 16 20:38:19 <mase76> yes
Aug 16 20:38:27 <angelox|laptop> mase76: i can't even boot up :(
Aug 16 20:38:50 <mase76> i also couldn't. i had to reflash nolo and the stock kernel.
Aug 16 20:39:01 <rly> How can I scroll faster through the menus?
Aug 16 20:39:09 <DocScrutinizer> anyway if you run an xchat client on the phone and you clicked on http://wiki.maemo.org/User:Joerg_rw/tools, you can click on the URL for repositories.install there and it will set up the missing tools repo in HAM to give you access to location-test-gui and others, via HAM
Aug 16 20:39:15 <rly> The screen scrolling is rather slow in HAM.
Aug 16 20:39:20 <angelox|laptop> mase76: i can't even do it
Aug 16 20:39:59 <mase76> flasher-3.5 -f -F RX-51_2009SE_20.2010.36-2_PR_COMBINED_MR0_ARM.bin --flash-only=kernel -R
Aug 16 20:40:06 <mase76> flasher-3.5 -f -F RX-51_2009SE_20.2010.36-2_PR_COMBINED_MR0_ARM.bin --flash-only=nolo -R
Aug 16 20:40:08 <Atarii> thanks DocScrutinizer i think that answered my question from earlier
Aug 16 20:40:17 <DocScrutinizer> FORGET NOLO!
Aug 16 20:40:23 <angelox|laptop> the problem is,the phone was turned on 2 hours ago
Aug 16 20:40:26 <DocScrutinizer> you never need to flash NOLO really
Aug 16 20:40:52 <ShadowJK> angelox|laptop, so what did you install before that?
Aug 16 20:40:53 <rly> Is it possible to load the battery and use it at the same time?
Aug 16 20:40:56 <angelox|laptop> and it was saying (low battery),i put it into the charger,and it did power off,and i can't no more do it
Aug 16 20:40:57 <mase76> but when you have to get rid of uboot, you have.
Aug 16 20:41:11 <ShadowJK> rly, yes
Aug 16 20:41:13 <angelox|laptop> ShadowJK: Nothing,it was ok
Aug 16 20:41:26 <angelox|laptop> ShadowJK: but it turned off,even in the charger..
Aug 16 20:41:37 <ShadowJK> angelox|laptop, Oh, so you don't have uboot then. I must've confused you with someone else, sorry
Aug 16 20:41:45 <DocScrutinizer> mase76: bullshit
Aug 16 20:41:54 <DocScrutinizer> uboot doesn't even touch NOLO
Aug 16 20:42:13 <mase76> ok, maybe the kernel will be enough.
Aug 16 20:42:42 <angelox|laptop> ShadowJK: Yes,i have uboot :)
Aug 16 20:42:49 <DocScrutinizer> I explained to epic length here uboot comes with kernel (as both live in same NAND partition)
Aug 16 20:43:02 <angelox|laptop> ShadowJK: my english is too bad,so i did explain wrongly,sorry!
Aug 16 20:43:20 <mase76> then if uboot-power does not boot, a "run noloboot" could boot maemo normally?
Aug 16 20:43:26 <ShadowJK> angelox|laptop, so when you start, before it says "booting kernel", you type in "run noloboot"?
Aug 16 20:43:27 <DocScrutinizer> and NOLO will boot uboot as it normally would boot the kernel - that's called chainloading
Aug 16 20:43:59 <DocScrutinizer> mase76: yes
Aug 16 20:44:08 <angelox|laptop> ShadowJK: yes
Aug 16 20:44:24 <angelox|laptop> ShadowJK: for 5~10 secounds it charges (flashing led)
Aug 16 20:44:34 <ShadowJK> I don't know about uboot-power, if it's at all working or if it has ever worked, but I do know that with the normal kernel, and normal uboot-pr13, the default is to boot meego from MicroSD, and if you interrupt by pressing any key, and then type in "run noloboot", it boots the regular maemo kernel and boots maemo from nand normally
Aug 16 20:44:37 <angelox|laptop> but stills at "Starting kernel"
Aug 16 20:45:09 <rly> How can I see my ip address?
Aug 16 20:45:22 <DocScrutinizer> ifconfig
Aug 16 20:45:31 <rly> That is not installed by default.
Aug 16 20:45:40 <ShadowJK> /sbin/ifconfig
Aug 16 20:45:55 <DocScrutinizer> it is
Aug 16 20:46:19 <DocScrutinizer> you're just not root by default
Aug 16 20:46:32 <rly> Ok
Aug 16 20:46:50 <rly> Why don't they just distribute the phone with everything installed? ;)
Aug 16 20:46:52 <angelox|laptop> ShadowJK: without charger now,it opened uboot,i did "run noloboot" and it flashed led (Without charger)
Aug 16 20:47:04 <mase76> no, "run noloboot" makes the phone turn off after some seconds.
Aug 16 20:47:05 <DocScrutinizer> and you still won't find it if you use sudo gainroot as this doesn't set up path correctly
Aug 16 20:47:26 <ShadowJK> mase76, for me it boots maemo :P
Aug 16 20:47:31 <angelox|laptop> me too
Aug 16 20:47:39 <angelox|laptop> well
Aug 16 20:47:42 <angelox|laptop> it was booting :)
Aug 16 20:47:56 <ShadowJK> I dont think Iv'e heard of red led before.. :/
Aug 16 20:48:08 <DocScrutinizer> broken battery
Aug 16 20:48:08 <angelox|laptop> yes,i said you red led
Aug 16 20:48:11 <mase76> i have pk also in nand.
Aug 16 20:48:19 <angelox|laptop> but it dissapears (fortunately)
Aug 16 20:48:36 <angelox|laptop> (sorry,i don't know how to say Disappears in the past) :(
Aug 16 20:48:49 <ShadowJK> disappeared :)
Aug 16 20:49:17 <angelox|laptop> thanks :)
Aug 16 20:49:27 <angelox|laptop> so my battery isn't broken :)
Aug 16 20:49:35 <ShadowJK> is it charging now?
Aug 16 20:49:54 <angelox|laptop> no
Aug 16 20:50:08 <angelox|laptop> it takes about 3~4 minutes at the yellow solid led
Aug 16 20:50:13 <angelox|laptop> so it boot uboot
Aug 16 20:50:22 <angelox|laptop> s/so/then/
Aug 16 20:50:22 <infobot> angelox|laptop meant: then it boot uboot
Aug 16 20:50:41 <mase76> reflashing kernel only makes the device boot again into maemo (stock).
Aug 16 20:50:52 <angelox|laptop> that's what i want
Aug 16 20:50:56 <DocScrutinizer> ShadowJK: might be related to runlevel. It might try to boot to normal system runlevel rather than act_dead, and in that runlevel it decides battery is way too low and switches system down
Aug 16 20:51:03 <angelox|laptop> but i can't flash
Aug 16 20:51:34 <angelox|laptop> the phone powers on automatically into the uboot
Aug 16 20:51:43 <angelox|laptop> even pressing U key
Aug 16 20:51:47 <DocScrutinizer> angelox|laptop: your battery is massively depleted, you can't flash that way
Aug 16 20:51:59 <ShadowJK> Yeah need to charge first
Aug 16 20:52:14 <DocScrutinizer> ~flatbatrecover
Aug 16 20:52:14 <infobot> Remove battery for 1 minute. Insert battery. Plug powered Nokia wallcharger to device. Watch steady amber. Let sit and charge. Do NOT try to boot. After 30 min, you got either a) a booted up N900, b) flashing amber which means you can boot, c) steady amber going off - in this case start over again with ~flatbatrecover
Aug 16 20:52:48 <DocScrutinizer> this applies for 'normal' systems though, not for uboot systems
Aug 16 20:52:54 <angelox|laptop> hmm
Aug 16 20:52:55 <angelox|laptop> bad
Aug 16 20:53:07 <DocScrutinizer> the steady amber still signals it's entering emergency charge mode initially
Aug 16 20:53:13 <angelox|laptop> can i plug a charger directly into the battery?
Aug 16 20:53:18 <angelox|laptop> like,cutting the wires..
Aug 16 20:53:24 <DocScrutinizer> yes
Aug 16 20:53:30 <ShadowJK> I think it goes solid yellow -> uboot -> type in "run noloboot" -> it goes to screen off, blinking/glowing yellow, and then at some time it reboots, and you need to catch it and type in "run noloboot" again. Or then it stays black and just charges, I forget what it does
Aug 16 20:54:15 <angelox|laptop> ShadowJK: Exactly!
Aug 16 20:54:18 <DocScrutinizer> yeah, you need to catch the moment when uBoot boots up
Aug 16 20:54:31 <DocScrutinizer> and stop booting by pressing a key
Aug 16 20:54:46 <angelox|laptop> i'm going to charge the wires way
Aug 16 20:54:57 <angelox|laptop> seems to work
Aug 16 20:55:01 <DocScrutinizer> then enter tha magic "run noloboot" or whatever, and hope for maemo taking care about charging
Aug 16 20:55:02 <angelox|laptop> *i hope*
Aug 16 20:55:15 <ShadowJK> angelox|laptop, what kind of power source would you use for the wires way?
Aug 16 20:55:16 <angelox|laptop> so,no problems charging the wires way?
Aug 16 20:55:26 <angelox|laptop> a phone charger ShadowJK
Aug 16 20:55:31 <DocScrutinizer> angelox|laptop: take extreme care to limit both current and voltage apropriately!
Aug 16 20:55:56 <ShadowJK> What kind of specs on the "charger"?
Aug 16 20:56:03 <angelox|laptop> hmm limit current is quite complicated,since my eletronic components aren't with me no more
Aug 16 20:56:09 <angelox|laptop> one secound shadowjk
Aug 16 20:56:20 <DocScrutinizer> old Nokia chargers with a written 850mA 4.8V or sth are OK
Aug 16 20:56:37 <DocScrutinizer> they actually limit current
Aug 16 20:56:51 <ShadowJK> the CA-146C  adapter would also be excellent
Aug 16 20:57:17 <DocScrutinizer> indeed, except it's hard to connect it directly to the battery
Aug 16 20:57:27 <ShadowJK> yeah :P
Aug 16 20:58:04 <DocScrutinizer> an old Nokia wallwart charger with 3.5mm barrel connector is really best for this type of charging hazard
Aug 16 20:58:07 <rly> How does the FM radio work?
Aug 16 20:58:15 <DocScrutinizer> good
Aug 16 20:58:23 <rly> I selected the frequency, but I only get noise.
Aug 16 20:58:23 <angelox|laptop> ShadowJK: 5,0V --- 550mA
Aug 16 20:58:31 <DocScrutinizer> Nokia?
Aug 16 20:58:37 <angelox|laptop> Motorola
Aug 16 20:58:43 <DocScrutinizer> USB, meh
Aug 16 20:58:49 <angelox|laptop> yes..
Aug 16 20:58:55 <DocScrutinizer> forget it
Aug 16 20:58:59 <angelox|laptop> why?
Aug 16 20:59:04 <ShadowJK> do you have a digital multimeter?
Aug 16 20:59:08 <angelox|laptop> the wires are separated
Aug 16 20:59:10 <angelox|laptop> yes
Aug 16 20:59:12 <DocScrutinizer> probably will have a foldback protective characteristic
Aug 16 20:59:46 <angelox|laptop> hmm
Aug 16 20:59:48 <angelox|laptop> i see...
Aug 16 20:59:54 <ShadowJK> dunno, usb charging spec says it has to reduce voltage in response to overload
Aug 16 20:59:58 <DocScrutinizer> means when you connect the battery it draws way too much current and that makes some "fuse" trip and no more current at all will flow
Aug 16 21:00:25 <DocScrutinizer> ShadowJK: sure? then might work
Aug 16 21:00:35 <angelox|laptop> DocScrutinizer: the flatbatrecover way,there's any chance to work with u-boot? (please say yes)
Aug 16 21:00:51 <DocScrutinizer> at least it's ""safe" for a few minutes :-D
Aug 16 21:01:08 <DocScrutinizer> angelox|laptop: sure
Aug 16 21:01:29 <ShadowJK> angelox|laptop, so ideally, you are aiming for 4.2V and  <= 900mA. Absolute maximum is something like 4.3V and 1.3A (this will do harm to the battery, but hopefully not too much).
Aug 16 21:01:37 <DocScrutinizer> angelox|laptop: you just need to wait to the moment where steady amber goes off and uboot menu appears
Aug 16 21:02:13 <DocScrutinizer> maybe amber goes off even several seconds *after* the moment where you have to press a key
Aug 16 21:02:23 <angelox|laptop> DocScrutinizer: and then?
Aug 16 21:02:27 <ShadowJK> 5V is more than 4.2, but at 500mA it would take 30-60 minutes before battery voltage reached 4.2V
Aug 16 21:03:09 <DocScrutinizer> angelox|laptop: you could just plug in then press some key every second and eventually look at screen to find uBoot menu with rubbish chars you need to delete prior to typing the noloboot
Aug 16 21:03:25 <angelox|laptop> ok
Aug 16 21:03:49 <DocScrutinizer> make sure you see screen even if backlight might be off!
Aug 16 21:04:02 <DocScrutinizer> I.E. get good illumination
Aug 16 21:04:06 <angelox|laptop> wow,only now i did see Nokia's Charger is 1200mA!
Aug 16 21:04:14 <angelox|laptop> DocScrutinizer: Yep
Aug 16 21:04:24 <ShadowJK> N900 does not use all of 1200mA from charger
Aug 16 21:04:26 <DocScrutinizer> angelox|laptop: yes, it is
Aug 16 21:04:41 <DocScrutinizer> and no it doesn't use all 1200
Aug 16 21:04:58 <angelox|laptop> i see now why it charges so fastly
Aug 16 21:05:15 <DocScrutinizer> 3.5h+ is fast?
Aug 16 21:05:19 <DocScrutinizer> hmm
Aug 16 21:05:31 <angelox|laptop> for me,came from chargers that toke 5+ yes
Aug 16 21:05:45 <DocScrutinizer> ok then :-D
Aug 16 21:05:59 <angelox|laptop> :)
Aug 16 21:06:03 <ShadowJK> DocScrutinizer, more like 2 hours with a fresh battery. Phantom resistance and internal resistance of old batteries makes it more like 4h, yeah :P
Aug 16 21:06:26 <DocScrutinizer> actually it's not charging with more than 800mA *at 3.8V* any time
Aug 16 21:07:31 <DocScrutinizer> which was more like 700mA used for charging from 5V
Aug 16 21:07:40 <DocScrutinizer> plus some system powering overhead
Aug 16 21:07:53 <angelox|laptop> one last question :-D
Aug 16 21:08:01 <DocScrutinizer> ask just ask
Aug 16 21:08:22 <angelox|laptop> if i let uboot time out,it also 'boots' maemo and charges that 5~10 secs
Aug 16 21:08:31 <angelox|laptop> so,why need i do "run noloboot"?
Aug 16 21:08:52 <ShadowJK> I wonder if there is some other problem too. What happens after 5-10 secs?
Aug 16 21:09:02 <angelox|laptop> it reboots
Aug 16 21:09:14 <ShadowJK> :(
Aug 16 21:09:20 <angelox|laptop> yes :(
Aug 16 21:09:30 <angelox|laptop> but at least,on these 5-10 secs it charges a bit :)
Aug 16 21:09:31 <DocScrutinizer> I don't think it boots maemo?
Aug 16 21:09:50 <angelox|laptop> yes,ops sorry,it boots maemo's kernel
Aug 16 21:09:54 <DocScrutinizer> isn't it more like it tries to boot meego?
Aug 16 21:10:10 <ShadowJK> It might fall back to noloboot if no MicroSD is inserted, I guess
Aug 16 21:10:19 <DocScrutinizer> yes
Aug 16 21:10:20 <angelox|laptop> no,because i'm without any uSD
Aug 16 21:10:25 <DocScrutinizer> hmm
Aug 16 21:11:37 <DocScrutinizer> angelox|laptop: now if you had installed backupmenu, you'd get a reliable simple charging with just sliding open kbd before maemo boots up :-D
Aug 16 21:12:06 <angelox|laptop> :(
Aug 16 21:12:12 <angelox|laptop> no one told me to install it 
Aug 16 21:12:31 <rly> DocScrutinizer: ok, FM also works.
Aug 16 21:12:47 <DocScrutinizer> rly: we all know it usually works, yes
Aug 16 21:12:50 <ShadowJK> transmitter or receiver? :)
Aug 16 21:12:53 <rly> Except, it seems that I cannot play without a headphone plugged in.
Aug 16 21:13:04 <rly> Also, the earplugs don't exactly fit.
Aug 16 21:13:08 <DocScrutinizer> rly: it needs hp for antenna
Aug 16 21:13:18 <rly> I suppose everyone buys custom ones?
Aug 16 21:13:29 <DocScrutinizer> yup
Aug 16 21:13:40 <rly> DocScrutinizer: ok, so it is not just my head ;)
Aug 16 21:14:16 <rly> DocScrutinizer: is that also the reason that the shape it not a computer compatible headphone?
Aug 16 21:14:19 <DocScrutinizer> angelox|laptop: If maemo reboots after 10s that's actually too bad
Aug 16 21:14:34 <rly> DocScrutinizer: (to get actual reception from the headphone connection)
Aug 16 21:14:56 <DocScrutinizer> rly: no
Aug 16 21:15:07 <rly> DocScrutinizer: ok, then what is the reason?
Aug 16 21:15:10 <DocScrutinizer> rly: any hp cable will do
Aug 16 21:15:15 <DocScrutinizer> dunno
Aug 16 21:15:32 <DocScrutinizer> what's the shape thing anyway
Aug 16 21:15:33 <rly> Cool, it fits :)
Aug 16 21:15:34 <DocScrutinizer> ?
Aug 16 21:16:22 <DocScrutinizer> N900 AV is compatible to generic stereo "walkman" headphone "standard"
Aug 16 21:16:38 <angelox|laptop> DocScrutinizer: Why?
Aug 16 21:17:04 <DocScrutinizer> because that means there's no proper way to recover from that situation
Aug 16 21:17:29 <ShadowJK> angelox|laptop, what happened to your electronics stuff?
Aug 16 21:17:32 <angelox|laptop> and if i flash stock kernel?
Aug 16 21:17:55 <DocScrutinizer> angelox|laptop: you could try to set R&D mode and disable wd_timers, that *might* fix the reboot-after-10s 
Aug 16 21:18:09 <angelox|laptop> ShadowJK: I've only 3~4 resistors :)
Aug 16 21:18:11 <DocScrutinizer> angelox|laptop: thought you can't flash?
Aug 16 21:18:28 <angelox|laptop> DocScrutinizer: no,i can't 
Aug 16 21:18:44 <DocScrutinizer> though you still might be able to set R&D via flasher
Aug 16 21:18:51 <angelox|laptop> DocScrutinizer: the thing is,when i plug usb cable with flasher-3.5 running,it automatically boots uboot
Aug 16 21:19:05 <DocScrutinizer> yes, expected
Aug 16 21:19:49 <DocScrutinizer> try coldflash parameter set, plus enable-r&d, plus no-*wd
Aug 16 21:20:08 <angelox|laptop> but only flashing kernel?
Aug 16 21:20:12 <DocScrutinizer> coldflash kicks in before NOLO even starts to decide it won't obey 'U'
Aug 16 21:20:19 <angelox|laptop> how should be the command?
Aug 16 21:20:39 <DocScrutinizer> flashing kernel won't even work in coldflash mode on a flat battery I think
Aug 16 21:21:01 <DocScrutinizer> sorry I got no flasher --help handy atm
Aug 16 21:21:12 <DocScrutinizer> and I'm also away now for some RL
Aug 16 21:21:23 <angelox|laptop> btw,sorry all these questions,i'm kind of desperate :-)
Aug 16 21:21:29 <DocScrutinizer> np
Aug 16 21:21:31 <angelox|laptop> DocScrutinizer: ok,let me try
Aug 16 21:22:17 <DocScrutinizer> angelox|laptop: see ~flashing ->coldflash, eliminate the pointers to image file and add the enable r&d instead
Aug 16 21:23:04 <angelox|laptop> ok
Aug 16 21:23:05 <rly> If I understood correctly, you can also flash only your kernel and keep your installed applications, correct?
Aug 16 21:23:40 <DocScrutinizer> yes
Aug 16 21:24:09 <DocScrutinizer> but you need to take care of the modules, and those live on /
Aug 16 21:24:31 <DocScrutinizer> with modules not matching new kernel you'll get a bootloop
Aug 16 21:25:38 <DocScrutinizer> if you got alternative directory trees for different kernels' modules on /, you can change kernels without any problems
Aug 16 21:25:51 <DocScrutinizer> aiui
Aug 16 21:26:43 <rly> How am I supposed to know which modules I need and where I get these bits?
Aug 16 21:28:06 <DocScrutinizer> modules are installed via a >kernelname>-modules.deb pkg iirc. You'll find them in /lib/modules/2.6.28-omap1/ or more generically in /lib/modules/<kernelname_as_of_uname>
Aug 16 21:28:25 <angelox|laptop> DocScrutinizer: i couldn't do yet,if i give you flasher-3.5 --help
Aug 16 21:28:30 <angelox|laptop> * could you help me?
Aug 16 21:30:44 <DocScrutinizer> angelox|laptop: see http://wiki.maemo.org/R&D_mode for the parts regarding R&D and watchdog disabling
Aug 16 21:30:53 <DocScrutinizer> see if that still works
Aug 16 21:30:59 <DocScrutinizer> with flat battery
Aug 16 21:31:53 <angelox|laptop> ok
Aug 16 21:32:15 <Atarii> FYI wget is not installed by default
Aug 16 21:32:17 <DocScrutinizer> no-lifeguard-reset no-omap-wd no-ext-wd
Aug 16 21:32:48 <DocScrutinizer> Atarii: well maybe, but gets installed by one of the pkgs almost everybody installs anyway
Aug 16 21:32:56 <angelox|laptop> wow
Aug 16 21:33:04 <angelox|laptop> almost booted up
Aug 16 21:33:14 <angelox|laptop> i think i did discover how to do the thing
Aug 16 21:34:19 <DocScrutinizer> --enable-rd-mode  --- try that if it works at all
Aug 16 21:34:20 <angelox|laptop> almost booted up = "I did saw the balls circling(not sure if circling is the correct word)"
Aug 16 21:34:33 <angelox|laptop> to flash kernel?
Aug 16 21:34:35 <DocScrutinizer> bouncing? :-D
Aug 16 21:34:49 <angelox|laptop> yess :-)
Aug 16 21:34:57 * angelox|laptop need learn actions in English :-)
Aug 16 21:36:36 <DocScrutinizer> then if this doesn't work you could still try to add the coldflash parameters to the  --enable-rd-mode
Aug 16 21:36:49 <DocScrutinizer> ~flashing
Aug 16 21:36:49 <infobot> methinks maemo-flashing is http://wiki.maemo.org/Updating_the_tablet_firmware
Aug 16 21:37:00 <angelox|laptop> ok
Aug 16 21:37:05 <angelox|laptop> let me do my magic first :)
Aug 16 21:39:18 <DocScrutinizer> flasher-3.5 -c -h RX-51:<hw_id> -F <FIASCO image>  --enable-rd-mode
Aug 16 21:39:48 <DocScrutinizer> http://wiki.maemo.org/Documentation/Maemo_5_Developer_Guide/Development_Environment/Maemo_Flasher-3.5
Aug 16 21:41:37 <DocScrutinizer> angelox|laptop: what's your maemo kernel and what's your (rootfs) system?
Aug 16 21:42:05 <angelox|laptop> maemo kernel? i don't know,i'm using uboot
Aug 16 21:42:06 <angelox|laptop> well
Aug 16 21:42:18 <DocScrutinizer> uboot with stock kenel?
Aug 16 21:42:42 <angelox|laptop> yes
Aug 16 21:42:46 <angelox|laptop> ops
Aug 16 21:42:58 <antman8969> uname -a
Aug 16 21:43:03 <DocScrutinizer> and system?
Aug 16 21:43:06 <angelox|laptop> i guess it's stock
Aug 16 21:43:09 <angelox|laptop> wget http://repository.maemo.org/pool/maemo5.0/free/k/kernel/kernel_2.6.28-20103103+0m5_armel.deb
Aug 16 21:43:11 <angelox|laptop> take from there :)
Aug 16 21:43:21 <DocScrutinizer> antman8969: nice, but how to do that when system doesn't boot up?
Aug 16 21:43:35 <antman8969> oh lol, just came in...
Aug 16 21:43:42 <antman8969> a better question might be, did he ever download powerkernel
Aug 16 21:43:44 <antman8969> if not, probably stock
Aug 16 21:43:49 <angelox|laptop> yes stock
Aug 16 21:43:56 <angelox|laptop> DocScrutinizer: hw_id?
Aug 16 21:44:33 <DocScrutinizer> >>The code "RX-51" used in the example is the product code for the N900 device. The <hw_id> is the product HW revision, which is a 4-digit code. Both product code and HW revision can be found from the type label of the device to be flashed. The type label is on the back of the device, underneath the battery.<<
Aug 16 21:45:38 <angelox|laptop> there's a lot of info...
Aug 16 21:45:40 <antman8969> http://tablets-dev.nokia.com/nokia_N900.php
Aug 16 21:45:43 <antman8969> this ?
Aug 16 21:46:23 <DocScrutinizer> angelox|laptop: though now we're leaving the domain where I can realy help any more, beetr try to ask jacekowski about coldflashing and related stuff
Aug 16 21:46:47 <DocScrutinizer> 2101 or sth like that
Aug 16 21:47:08 <DocScrutinizer> 2100, 2000, 2010...
Aug 16 21:47:15 <angelox|laptop> only numbers?
Aug 16 21:47:17 <DocScrutinizer> some 4digit stuff
Aug 16 21:47:21 <DocScrutinizer> yoh
Aug 16 21:47:26 <angelox|laptop> ok
Aug 16 21:47:37 * DocScrutinizer waves
Aug 16 21:47:42 <DocScrutinizer> good luck :-D
Aug 16 21:47:46 <angelox|laptop> 0434 maybe?
Aug 16 21:47:47 <angelox|laptop> thanks :)
Aug 16 21:49:25 <DocScrutinizer> unpacking or listing a fiasco image will show all the valid hw codes 
Aug 16 21:49:36 <DocScrutinizer> don't think 0434 been one of them
Aug 16 21:49:50 <angelox|laptop> i see..
Aug 16 21:49:52 <angelox|laptop> there's no other code
Aug 16 21:50:15 <angelox|laptop> :*(
Aug 16 21:51:32 <angelox|laptop> and if i don't input any hw code?
Aug 16 21:52:33 <DocScrutinizer> k fsckng hw-id is NOT on the label
Aug 16 21:52:41 <DocScrutinizer> try 2100
Aug 16 21:52:46 <angelox|laptop> ok
Aug 16 21:53:26 <angelox|laptop> "You have to supply the 2nd image"
Aug 16 21:53:33 <angelox|laptop> since i've extracted,i'll suply
Aug 16 21:54:13 <angelox|laptop> i'll try 2101
Aug 16 21:54:41 <angelox|laptop> since there's that at 2nd image,and in a Brazillian website
Aug 16 22:00:05 <DocScrutinizer> IroN900:~# softupd -v --local&
Aug 16 22:00:07 <DocScrutinizer> [1] 4626
Aug 16 22:00:08 <DocScrutinizer> IroN900:~# flasher --local -i
Aug 16 22:00:10 <DocScrutinizer> flasher v2.8.2 (Jan  8 2010)
Aug 16 22:00:11 <DocScrutinizer> Using flashing protocol Mk II.
Aug 16 22:00:13 <DocScrutinizer> Found device RX-51, hardware revision 2101
Aug 16 22:01:05 <DocScrutinizer> o/
Aug 16 22:03:53 <DocScrutinizer> one last thing: you of course *could* create a meego uSD with a file in /etc/events.d or /etc/init.d that calls ShadowJK 's charger script (you'd have to add the needed tools as well, namely i2ctools)
Aug 16 22:04:22 <DocScrutinizer> this should just start charging happily when invoked by uBoot
Aug 16 22:05:03 <DocScrutinizer> (just like backupmenu would, if it was installed in maemo)
Aug 16 22:05:19 <angelox|laptop> and where can i download that script?
Aug 16 22:05:30 <DocScrutinizer> hah simple
Aug 16 22:06:04 <DocScrutinizer> http://enivax.net/jk/n900/
Aug 16 22:06:23 <DocScrutinizer> http://enivax.net/jk/n900/charge.sh.txt
Aug 16 22:07:14 <DocScrutinizer> make sure you adapt the pathnames in there to point to the location where you placed i2cget/set on that meego image
Aug 16 22:07:20 <angelox|laptop> booted
Aug 16 22:07:31 <angelox|laptop> well..more or less
Aug 16 22:07:42 <angelox|laptop> :-)
Aug 16 22:07:43 <angelox|laptop> backlight worked
Aug 16 22:07:47 <angelox|laptop> and power on button too
Aug 16 22:08:11 <Shapeshifter> boo throttling
Aug 16 22:08:11 <DocScrutinizer> damn, are you actually using a Nokia wallcharger to power the device??
Aug 16 22:09:35 <DocScrutinizer> I don't think recovery from deep discharge will work with random PC or alien chargers
Aug 16 22:10:07 <ShadowJK> meegocharge.tar or something, iirc
Aug 16 22:11:00 <angelox|laptop> what's alien charger?
Aug 16 22:11:18 <ShadowJK> not nokia
Aug 16 22:11:34 <Shapeshifter> angelox|laptop: the thing they used in indipendence day to upload a virus to the mothership.
Aug 16 22:11:44 <Shapeshifter> s/dip/dep
Aug 16 22:12:15 <angelox|laptop> wow
Aug 16 22:12:18 <nox-> haha
Aug 16 22:13:32 <angelox|laptop> i didn't undestand,due my bad English i guess :(
Aug 16 22:35:53 <angelox|laptop> DocScrutnizer: Actually,what should i really do,if i can flash normally,flash kernel?
Aug 16 22:37:13 <angelox|laptop> maybe flash kernel to charge finely
Aug 16 22:41:37 <DocScrutinizer> angelox|laptop: yes, flash same kernel you got now, but without uBoot. But then OTOH if device charged then there's nothing wrong with your system
Aug 16 22:41:59 <angelox|laptop> OTOH?
Aug 16 22:42:20 <DocScrutinizer> and if it wouldn't charge noramlly, you weren't able to reach a state where you can flash kernel
Aug 16 22:42:25 <DocScrutinizer> ~otoh
Aug 16 22:42:25 <infobot> it has been said that otoh is On The Other Hand.  It's YAFA.
Aug 16 22:42:51 <DocScrutinizer> ~yafa
Aug 16 22:42:51 <infobot> extra, extra, read all about it, yafa is Yet Another Freakin Acronym.
Aug 16 22:42:58 <angelox|laptop> ah ok,thanks
Aug 16 22:43:30 <DocScrutinizer> I don't understand why your system reboots all the time after 10s
Aug 16 22:43:44 <DocScrutinizer> unless you used a nonstandard charger
Aug 16 22:44:28 <DocScrutinizer> your battery could actually be damaged, assuming it's been you who claimed there's been red indicator light
Aug 16 22:45:55 <DocScrutinizer> this could delay start of charging significantly, so the battery discharges to a point where device shuts down. This happens prior to actual charging even kicking in, due to the delay caused by defect cell
Aug 16 22:46:08 <DocScrutinizer> is one of my ideas what's going on
Aug 16 22:46:35 <angelox|laptop> i see...
Aug 16 22:46:45 <angelox|laptop> but there's no more red light
Aug 16 22:46:55 <DocScrutinizer> but there's been, no?
Aug 16 22:47:05 <angelox|laptop> yes,once
Aug 16 22:47:17 <DocScrutinizer> it's a concerning signal
Aug 16 22:48:02 <DocScrutinizer> this red warning light doesn't show up just for fun, or triggered by a random generator. There's been sth severely odd to cause it light up
Aug 16 22:48:53 <Shapeshifter> is smokku ever on here?
Aug 16 22:49:05 <DocScrutinizer> ~seen smokku
Aug 16 22:49:08 <Shapeshifter> ah wait cordia has a chan on its own
Aug 16 22:49:10 <infobot> i haven't seen 'smokku', DocScrutinizer
Aug 16 22:49:23 * Shapeshifter goes asking alis
Aug 16 22:49:30 <angelox|laptop> DocScrutnizer: But i don't know what that did happen :(
Aug 16 22:49:45 <DocScrutinizer> s/whyt/why/?
Aug 16 22:49:50 <DocScrutinizer> what*
Aug 16 22:50:09 <angelox|laptop> why*
Aug 16 22:50:10 <angelox|laptop> because
Aug 16 22:50:13 <angelox|laptop> it was working
Aug 16 22:50:13 <angelox|laptop> :(
Aug 16 22:50:23 <DocScrutinizer> because battery discharged deep?
Aug 16 22:50:33 <angelox|laptop> ys
Aug 16 22:50:35 <angelox|laptop> yes*
Aug 16 22:51:03 <wmarone> GAN900: you there?
Aug 16 22:51:19 <DocScrutinizer> LiIon really hates getting discharged deep. Even more they hate staying in discharged state for prolonged period of time
Aug 16 22:51:38 <cehteh> pussies
Aug 16 22:51:48 <cehteh> they dont like being overcharged either
Aug 16 22:51:53 <DocScrutinizer> hehe
Aug 16 22:52:07 <DocScrutinizer> can stand this better though than deep discharge
Aug 16 22:52:24 <angelox|laptop> DocScrutnizer: and if i take another battery (not from N900) only to flash n900?
Aug 16 22:52:42 <DocScrutinizer> should work, but won't fix a single problem
Aug 16 22:53:12 <angelox|laptop> ok
Aug 16 22:53:21 <DocScrutinizer> as mentioned above I don't see how's your system broken in any way. Doesn't need flashing then
Aug 16 22:53:22 <angelox|laptop> atm,i would try everything :(
Aug 16 22:53:35 <angelox|laptop> i'd only like to flash Maemo
Aug 16 22:53:59 <DocScrutinizer> you *got* a working maemo system, no?
Aug 16 22:54:04 <angelox|laptop> to do ~flatbatrecover
Aug 16 22:54:10 <angelox|laptop> when?
Aug 16 22:54:59 <DocScrutinizer> well, there's a bit of a nuisance with uBoot and flatbatrecover, but nothing serious as far as I can tell right now
Aug 16 22:55:43 <DocScrutinizer> you said you almost booted your maemo system? Then reflashing it won't change that behaviour I'd say
Aug 16 22:56:42 <DocScrutinizer> angelox|laptop: I seriously suggest you do yourself a favour and buy a gift for you: a spare battery so you can swap :-D
Aug 16 22:57:14 <DocScrutinizer> you can get cheap batteries for sth like 8$ that work not that bad at all
Aug 16 22:58:00 <angelox|laptop> ok :-) if i find one to n900
Aug 16 22:58:07 <angelox|laptop> but..if i buy a table charger?
Aug 16 22:58:12 <DocScrutinizer> then if you have same problems with that new battery, you may consider reflashing, or better try investigating what's wrong with charging in maemo, or why it reboots at all
Aug 16 23:00:01 <DocScrutinizer> but for now I tend to blame your battery to be broken to a point where it becomes hard to skip over the charging gap between flatbatrecover (steady amber) and the point in time of booting maemo where bme kicks in and continues with decent charging
Aug 16 23:01:21 <DocScrutinizer> as mentioned before you might want to install backupmenu of robbiethe1st, which has shadowjk's charging script and gets started very early in maemo bootup process if the kbd is open
Aug 16 23:01:47 <angelox|laptop> there's someway to install with device powered off? :-)
Aug 16 23:02:17 <DocScrutinizer> so the charging gap time becomes really really short, and also the charging script is a bit brute force compared to bme and thus starts charging way quicker by itself
Aug 16 23:02:47 <DocScrutinizer> no, there's no way to install that to maemo proper
Aug 16 23:03:04 <DocScrutinizer> but you could do a similar thing for meego on uSD, as mentioned above
Aug 16 23:03:28 <angelox|laptop> yes,i'm downloading a image
Aug 16 23:03:50 <DocScrutinizer> but honestly this is not really a software problem, it somehow feels like broken hardware
Aug 16 23:04:23 <angelox|laptop> :(
Aug 16 23:04:27 <DocScrutinizer> which only partially could get fixed by special sw hacks to counteract the rot cause which probably is a broken battery cell
Aug 16 23:04:47 <DocScrutinizer> s/rot/root/
Aug 16 23:04:47 <infobot> DocScrutinizer meant: which only partially could get fixed by special sw hacks to counteract the root cause which probably is a broken battery cell
Aug 16 23:07:35 <angelox|laptop> i don't like my N900 no more
Aug 16 23:07:35 <DocScrutinizer> as I understand it there is a protection circuit in Nokia batteries that "cuts the wire" when battery gets discharged too deeply, but that circuit is configured to prevent battery fire and explosion that could result from deep discharge. It's not built to keep battery intact and sane regarding normal function as a power source
Aug 16 23:09:44 <DocScrutinizer> if you *smehow* managed to keep N900 sucking power from battery despite the voltage dropped to 3.3V, then eventually this circuit would kick in and cause the battery to expose 0.0V on the terminals. This can cause bme and/or NOLO to detect a battery with no voltage and shine up the red error signal
Aug 16 23:11:16 <DocScrutinizer> N900 sucking battery power beyond sane limits might get caused by hard shutdown, when some autonomous subsystems still stay on as main processor had no time to tell them to shutdown
Aug 16 23:12:44 <DocScrutinizer> it also may get caused by somebody/sth frequently trying to boot system despite battery is empty. E.G you have the device in your pocket and while walking the power button gets pressed for each step you do
Aug 16 23:13:57 <DocScrutinizer> but there are also batteries that were simply defective from beginning and just break down after a few dozen charging cycles
Aug 16 23:14:04 <GeneralAntilles> wmarone, pong.
Aug 16 23:14:50 <ShadowJK> why did you install uboot?
Aug 16 23:15:23 <DocScrutinizer> angelox|laptop: so again: do your self a favour - buy yourself a gift (maybe for your last or your next birthday, or just for celebrating next sunday) get a spare battery
Aug 16 23:15:24 <angelox|laptop> my battery is showing 3.0V
Aug 16 23:15:36 <angelox|laptop> ok
Aug 16 23:16:47 <DocScrutinizer> nothing to blame N900 for - yet
Aug 16 23:17:26 <DocScrutinizer> and you'll have more fun if you continue to like it ;-D
Aug 16 23:18:05 <DocScrutinizer> also nothing really wrong with uBoot as far as I can tell for now
Aug 16 23:18:56 <DocScrutinizer> only issue with uBoot: it extends the "charging gap" on boot
Aug 16 23:19:01 <DocScrutinizer> obviously
Aug 16 23:19:43 <ShadowJK> The gap is about 60-90 seconds with my bad battery and meego
Aug 16 23:20:14 <DocScrutinizer> we asked jacekowski before if he culd maybe patch NOLO to charge a bit more in hw-based emergency recover charge mode, before NOLO decides to bot up to system
Aug 16 23:20:31 <ShadowJK> but meego has no "battery too low: shutdown" logic on boot with low batt
Aug 16 23:21:01 <DocScrutinizer> ShadowJK: just it seems we booted maemo here, not meego
Aug 16 23:21:18 <ShadowJK> yeah :P
Aug 16 23:22:08 <DocScrutinizer> and the too low "hysteresis" between NOLO's boot-up threshold and system's shut-down threshold has been mentioned and blamed by speedevil before
Aug 16 23:23:42 <DocScrutinizer> if jacekowski was able to use his super-RE-powers to patch a single byte in NOLO to rise the bootip-threshold from some 3.3V to maybe 3.5V this was a really great fix for issues like this one
Aug 16 23:23:46 * ShadowJK can also recover from 2.8V through amber - uboot - run noloboot - maemo:act_dead (or nolo again?) - run noloboot
Aug 16 23:24:28 <ShadowJK> with the bad batt, that has that ludicrous 1.6ohm ir at 2.8V
Aug 16 23:25:09 <ShadowJK> so it should have smallest margin
Aug 16 23:25:33 <DocScrutinizer> ShadowJK: depending on effective capacity of cell and duration of charging gap, there's always a limit where system will shutdown rather than boot up and charge
Aug 16 23:26:53 <DocScrutinizer> where "effective capacity" here means the capacity available from (dunno) 3.37V down to 3.30V
Aug 16 23:27:04 <DocScrutinizer> or whatever the both thresholds may be
Aug 16 23:28:00 <DocScrutinizer> also related to Z for the one is threshold during charging while the other is threshold during massive discharge
Aug 16 23:28:38 <angelox|laptop> yes...is my battery :(
Aug 16 23:28:48 <ShadowJK> hm?
Aug 16 23:28:52 <angelox|laptop> another bat from other device it powers on :(
Aug 16 23:29:08 <ShadowJK> you had another battery?
Aug 16 23:29:50 <DocScrutinizer> basically it boils down to: if a battery that reaches 3.37V @ 700mA charging isn't capable of delivering 1A for 180s without dropping below 3.30V, you got a problem
Aug 16 23:30:25 <DocScrutinizer> (numbers a bogus random ^^^^)
Aug 16 23:30:37 <ShadowJK> so that's 0.07 / 1.7.. ah nm :P
Aug 16 23:31:09 <angelox|laptop> ShadowJK,no,i got from other phone,a Motorola One
Aug 16 23:31:40 <DocScrutinizer> angelox|laptop: red light always means "GET NEW BATTERY!"
Aug 16 23:32:06 <angelox|laptop> i shouldn't know that :(
Aug 16 23:32:06 <DocScrutinizer> unless it's the front-cam-active indicator :-D
Aug 16 23:33:14 <angelox|laptop> why did someone programmed that red  light?
Aug 16 23:33:16 <angelox|laptop> :(
Aug 16 23:33:36 <DocScrutinizer> angelox|laptop: you could try hotswap to try and charge your presumably defect battery
Aug 16 23:33:59 <angelox|laptop> it's what i'm trying right now :)
Aug 16 23:34:15 <DocScrutinizer> doesn't work without some tricks
Aug 16 23:34:25 <DocScrutinizer> you know how to hotswap?
Aug 16 23:34:41 <angelox|laptop> i'm connecting two batteries 
Aug 16 23:34:52 <angelox|laptop> the N900 itself,and one charged
Aug 16 23:34:53 <ShadowJK> that's kinda dangerous
Aug 16 23:34:58 <angelox|laptop> in parallel
Aug 16 23:35:15 <DocScrutinizer> angelox|laptop: DO NOT DO THIS!!!!!
Aug 16 23:35:25 <ShadowJK> or rather, very dangerous without current limiting
Aug 16 23:35:39 <DocScrutinizer> it will FOR SURE kill one of both batteries
Aug 16 23:35:51 <angelox|laptop> how should i do so?
Aug 16 23:35:53 <DocScrutinizer> probably both
Aug 16 23:37:07 <DocScrutinizer> angelox|laptop: please refer to http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=57734
Aug 16 23:38:04 <DocScrutinizer> angelox|laptop: obviously you will change a full battery against an empty one though
Aug 16 23:38:10 <ShadowJK> you'd need something like 2 ohm resistance between full and empty battery, or they kill eachother or explode
Aug 16 23:38:55 <DocScrutinizer> and when ShadowJK says "explode" he means BOOOOOM
Aug 16 23:39:08 <angelox|laptop> i've no way to power on my n900 with other battery,no one fits
Aug 16 23:39:13 <angelox|laptop> hahaha
Aug 16 23:39:24 <angelox|laptop> i'll do this:
Aug 16 23:39:43 <angelox|laptop> Get a table charger
Aug 16 23:39:43 <DocScrutinizer> didn't you just say your N900 booted up properly with a motorola battery?
Aug 16 23:40:00 <angelox|laptop> yes,but both connected parallel
Aug 16 23:40:06 <angelox|laptop> then you said:
Aug 16 23:40:06 <angelox|laptop> <DocScrutinizer> angelox|laptop: DO NOT DO THIS!!!!!
Aug 16 23:40:13 <angelox|laptop> and i'll not do that
Aug 16 23:40:14 <angelox|laptop> :)
Aug 16 23:40:17 <DocScrutinizer> dang, get a working battery. Yours is broken. Period
Aug 16 23:40:37 <ShadowJK> did it stay on whn you removed motorola battery and left nokia battery connected?
Aug 16 23:40:53 <DocScrutinizer> oh fine, so you actually already killed the poor battery even more
Aug 16 23:41:03 <angelox|laptop> ShadowJK: yes
Aug 16 23:41:14 <ShadowJK> quick, connect charger then ;)
Aug 16 23:41:27 <angelox|laptop> a bit of time,before i turn off
Aug 16 23:41:30 * DocScrutinizer sighs and returns back to his tedious RL duties
Aug 16 23:41:54 <angelox|laptop> DocScrutinizer: That was for ~5 secounds
Aug 16 23:42:00 <angelox|laptop> i didn't even booted Maemo
Aug 16 23:42:09 <angelox|laptop> i was only trying to flash Kernel
Aug 16 23:42:18 <angelox|laptop> so,i didn't kill my baterry yet :)
Aug 16 23:42:42 <ShadowJK> even 0.1 second of that can kill or damage both batteries
Aug 16 23:43:14 <angelox|laptop> but why could damage?
Aug 16 23:43:19 <angelox|laptop> i can't understand
Aug 16 23:43:24 <angelox|laptop> they're plugged in parallel
Aug 16 23:43:56 <angelox|laptop> can you explain?
Aug 16 23:43:58 <angelox|laptop> :)
Aug 16 23:44:10 <ShadowJK> Because the full motorola battery will send ALOT of current to the empty battery. About 4 Ampere.
Aug 16 23:44:29 <ShadowJK> These batteries are not built to handle 4 ampere current.
Aug 16 23:45:03 <angelox|laptop> it wasn't full fortunately
Aug 16 23:45:09 <angelox|laptop> kind of 30~40%
Aug 16 23:45:38 <ShadowJK> If Li-Ion batteries are at same voltage, then you can parallell.
Aug 16 23:49:12 <angelox|laptop> yes,they are
Aug 16 23:49:23 <angelox|laptop> ops
Aug 16 23:49:36 <angelox|laptop> ok
Aug 16 23:50:12 <ShadowJK> your nokia was at 3.0V, your motorola would probably be at 3.6 - 3.8. Not the same..
Aug 16 23:50:49 <angelox|laptop> i see...
Aug 16 23:51:03 <angelox|laptop> but i hope there's a minimal chance of work
Aug 16 23:51:19 <cehteh> there is a minimal chance for a nice firework
Aug 16 23:51:52 <cehteh> unfortunally, in most cases it will just die silently :P
Aug 16 23:51:59 <ShadowJK> this chance will increase with time after subjecting these batteries to this torture :)
Aug 16 23:52:30 <angelox|laptop> ok. I need buy a battery
Aug 16 23:52:50 <cehteh> buy 2 ... 1 to try, the other one to fry
Aug 16 23:53:16 <angelox|laptop> where can i find at least one on Brazil?
Aug 16 23:59:08 <DocScrutinizer> each second hand mobile phone shop I'd guess
Aug 16 23:59:26 <DocScrutinizer> as well as Nokia shops, but those are 
Aug 16 23:59:33 <DocScrutinizer> **really* expensive
Aug 17 00:00:48 <DocScrutinizer> dunno how's customs in brazil, if it's not as bad as in argentina, you may buy some battery on ebay or dealextreme or whatever
Aug 17 00:03:23 <angelox|laptop> i still don't understanding how could i broke my battery by plugging the charger
Aug 17 00:04:03 <DocScrutinizer> angelox|laptop: and while you're at it, get rid of your broken and now tortured original Nokia battery. As ShadowJK stated it might have severe damage now that can cause really unpleasant effects in the near future, esp if you continue to use it
Aug 17 00:05:02 <ShadowJK> angelox|laptop, you change the story all the time. Before you said you connected battery in parallell with another battery. Now that you plugged charger?
Aug 17 00:05:06 <DocScrutinizer> angelox|laptop: ooh it died while device plugged in to charger?
Aug 17 00:05:17 <angelox|laptop> Yes
Aug 17 00:05:20 <angelox|laptop> let me explain ok?
Aug 17 00:05:27 <angelox|laptop> first:
Aug 17 00:06:05 <angelox|laptop> Today,15 hours,the phone said "low battery". So i did plug the charger,and went to clean my notebook
Aug 17 00:06:25 <DocScrutinizer> that's a known effect - sometimes the charger detection doesn't work completely, so device doesn't charge but stays on. This results in discharged battery, though I never heard it deep-discharges battery to a point where cell gets damaged
Aug 17 00:06:26 <angelox|laptop> when i came back,it was powered off with the amber led 
Aug 17 00:07:35 <angelox|laptop> but after the amber led,i did remove the charger,the battery,put the battery again and it didn't power on
Aug 17 00:07:59 <DocScrutinizer> so the discharge was due to a known bug in maemo, which occasionally causes charger not detected. The damage done was by cell being weak by birth, and it just needed a normal discharge to make it break completely
Aug 17 00:09:17 <angelox|laptop> so i really killed my battery?
Aug 17 00:09:26 <angelox|laptop> or not completaly?
Aug 17 00:09:43 <angelox|laptop> completely*
Aug 17 00:09:46 <DocScrutinizer> the resulting bootlooping didn't help eaither, as it further sucked empty the battery rather than charging it
Aug 17 00:10:31 <angelox|laptop> that means...
Aug 17 00:10:38 <DocScrutinizer> angelox|laptop: it's unknown if it is killed completely now, but it for sure is severely damaged and highly advisable to not get used any longer
Aug 17 00:11:19 <ShadowJK> The battery might not be able to operate properly when very low, it could have been like this always, but you probably never had it go this low before, so you never noticed?
Aug 17 00:11:34 <DocScrutinizer> exactly
Aug 17 00:12:03 <DocScrutinizer> and conecting it parallel to a charged battery for sure did some additional damage 
Aug 17 00:12:13 <DocScrutinizer> even if it was only for 0.5s
Aug 17 00:12:45 <DocScrutinizer> so get a new battery, and forget about it
Aug 17 00:13:12 <DocScrutinizer> there's basically nothing you could've done to prevent this going to happen eventually
Aug 17 00:13:35 <angelox|laptop> 1 month of use:(
Aug 17 00:13:39 <DocScrutinizer> except always check if device really signals "charging" when you plug in the charger
Aug 17 00:14:03 <nox-> is it know what triggers the bug?
Aug 17 00:14:16 <nox-> (guess ive been lucky...)
Aug 17 00:14:45 <DocScrutinizer> angelox|laptop: as I told you more than 3 times now, the battery was dead from beginning. It's really unlikely it would show such defect after 9 months, it's highly likely it shows up during first 4 weeks of usage
Aug 17 00:15:08 <DocScrutinizer> nox-: not really, I think it's a race
Aug 17 00:15:14 <nox-> ah
Aug 17 00:15:40 <nox-> so when it happens just replug charger and hope for better luck?
Aug 17 00:15:48 <DocScrutinizer> as the sysnodes signal charger is connected, but bme doesn't act accordingly
Aug 17 00:15:56 <DocScrutinizer> yep
Aug 17 00:16:02 <nox-> ok, good to know
Aug 17 00:19:26 <DocScrutinizer> you can tell easily there's sth wrong as the charger-detected sound is missing when charger gets not detected ;-D
Aug 17 00:19:40 <nox-> yeah
Aug 17 00:20:12 <angelox|laptop> 40 dollars a battery
Aug 17 00:20:19 <ShadowJK> too much
Aug 17 00:20:22 <nox-> o_O
Aug 17 00:20:33 <angelox|laptop> and it isn't original
Aug 17 00:20:38 <DocScrutinizer> of course you also can check any time by looking at bat applet animation, or flashing amber LED
Aug 17 00:20:54 <angelox|laptop> 160 dollars original one
Aug 17 00:20:56 <nox-> *nod*
Aug 17 00:21:01 <ShadowJK> wtf?
Aug 17 00:21:06 <nox-> o_O!!!
Aug 17 00:21:09 <DocScrutinizer> angelox|laptop: WTF, that's as much as I pay for Nokia original BL-5J
Aug 17 00:21:09 <ShadowJK> is that US dollars?
Aug 17 00:21:26 <angelox|laptop> yes
Aug 17 00:21:32 <nox-> taxes?
Aug 17 00:21:36 <angelox|laptop> Isn't good buy anything in Brazil
Aug 17 00:21:42 <DocScrutinizer> WUT??? onehunderedandsixty US dollars???
Aug 17 00:22:37 <DocScrutinizer> damn, I'll start a smuggling carreer
Aug 17 00:22:42 <ShadowJK> "Japod BL-5J" is $8.70 on dealextreme.com. It's a good battery. But I don't know if Brazilian customs are evil or not, so better find out first if anyone else has ordered from dealextreme to brazil
Aug 17 00:22:45 <nox-> what about those (minumum) three scud batteries off ebay that ppl mentioned?
Aug 17 00:22:58 <nox-> i think they were less than $40...
Aug 17 00:23:07 <nox-> for three?
Aug 17 00:23:28 <angelox|laptop> someone would like to gift one for me :)
Aug 17 00:23:29 <angelox|laptop> haah
Aug 17 00:23:34 <ShadowJK> Yeah, japod is second place on dr_frost's battery review list, after the 3-minimum scud :)
Aug 17 00:24:22 <nox-> i guess getting three might not be a bad idea if you do it anyway...
Aug 17 00:24:36 * nox- not tried yet tho
Aug 17 00:25:44 <angelox|laptop> i've never bought anything at dx
Aug 17 00:28:01 <ShadowJK> I'd probably try charge my damaged battery carefully, order a new battery, and use old one carefully while waiting for new one. probably takes a month
Aug 17 00:28:25 <angelox|laptop> that is what i'll do with a table charger
Aug 17 00:28:42 <nox-> dx takes a month to deliver?  or only to brazil?
Aug 17 00:29:05 <DocScrutinizer> charge it *very* carefully, and on a flame resistant table
Aug 17 00:29:13 <ShadowJK> nox-, I'm a pessimist. ;p
Aug 17 00:29:30 * nox- never bought from dx so i wouldnt know :)
Aug 17 00:29:32 <angelox|laptop> for Brazil takes 1month and 1 week~
Aug 17 00:29:48 <angelox|laptop> that is what they that i know say
Aug 17 00:29:50 <DocScrutinizer> delivery from china often takes even longer, also to Germany
Aug 17 00:30:01 <nox-> heh i guess...
Aug 17 00:30:42 <ShadowJK> it's kinda random. Half the time it takes 1.5 weeks to finland. Other half of times it takes 4-6 weeks.
Aug 17 00:30:56 <nox-> i c
Aug 17 00:31:12 <DocScrutinizer> probably they just send one container ship every 8 weeks
Aug 17 00:31:21 <nox-> haha
Aug 17 00:31:21 <angelox|laptop> they would replace only the battery? (warranty)
Aug 17 00:31:37 <ShadowJK> the battery has 6 month warranty
Aug 17 00:31:43 <ShadowJK> in europe atleast
Aug 17 00:32:09 <DocScrutinizer> angelox|laptop: if you bought the device originally and it's just one month old, yes then there shall be warranty for the batery
Aug 17 00:33:33 <angelox|laptop> so should i send to warranty?
Aug 17 00:34:14 <ShadowJK> I am guessing that there is no nokia repair shop nearby?
Aug 17 00:34:43 <angelox|laptop> actually,i don't know any
Aug 17 00:35:07 <DocScrutinizer> check nokia website
Aug 17 00:35:32 <DocScrutinizer> they have instructions on how to claim warranty repair
Aug 17 00:37:29 <ShadowJK> for me, sending it to nokia took 6 weeks too..
Aug 17 00:38:10 <angelox|laptop> wow
Aug 17 00:38:43 <Ken-Young> I maintain a Maemo 5 gtk+ app.   I want to have that app change its behavior when the window manager shrinks when the user starts selecting a different app.   Does anyone know how my app can unambiguously determine when that has happened? I thought I could just detect loss of focus, but that happens when the app's menu is pulled down too.   Is there an event or signal I can catch that is unique in this situation?
Aug 17 00:39:02 <Ken-Young> s/shrinks/shrinks the app/
Aug 17 00:39:03 <infobot> Ken-Young meant: I maintain a Maemo 5 gtk+ app.   I want to have that app change its behavior when the window manager shrinks the app when the user starts selecting a different app.   Does anyone know how my app can unambiguously determine when that has happened? I though...
Aug 17 00:40:44 <angelox|laptop> ShadowJK: I've found two on their website,but they won't complain about uboot?
Aug 17 00:41:08 <ShadowJK> they probably will complain
Aug 17 00:41:44 <angelox|laptop> so what can i do?
Aug 17 00:44:01 <angelox|laptop> i'll tell they i've installed a app called uboot-pr13 and i didn't know what it was :)
Aug 17 00:45:20 <ShadowJK> if there's a shop nearby you could try ask them to charge your battery
Aug 17 00:50:59 <angelox|laptop> i need to run 7.05 km
Aug 17 00:52:58 <DocScrutinizer> Ken-Young: check if there's some is_visible and/or is_active boolean var available somewhere
Aug 17 00:54:23 <Ken-Young> DocScrutinizer, OK, I'll look for something like that.   Thanks for the suggestion.
Aug 17 00:55:05 <DocScrutinizer> angelox|laptop: if it's clearly the battery that's defect (which is the case here) I'd say you don't need to even bring your N900. It's sufficient to tell the battery doesn't charge properly and doesn't provide as much power as supposed
Aug 17 00:56:50 <angelox|laptop> DocScrutinizer: Ok...
Aug 17 00:57:02 <angelox|laptop> DocScrutinizer & ShadowJK: Thanks for all help today :-)
Aug 17 00:57:06 <DocScrutinizer> if they ask how you determined that, you can tell them you discharged the battery until device shut down, and after that the battery didn't charge anymore respectively the device didn't boot up as the battery wasn't able to support bootup after initial precharge. You tested with a spare battery and that one worked flawlessly with the device, so it's obviously the battery that's defect
Aug 17 00:58:13 <DocScrutinizer> also mentioning the red indicator should tell service dude all he needs to know ;-D
Aug 17 00:58:36 <DocScrutinizer> red indicator always means battery defect
Aug 17 00:59:17 <angelox|laptop> i see...
Aug 17 00:59:29 <DocScrutinizer> angelox|laptop: if you feel like it, you can printout the last three posts of mine and hand it to service dude ;-)
Aug 17 00:59:41 <DocScrutinizer> also this:
Aug 17 00:59:48 <DocScrutinizer> ~ DocScrutinizer 
Aug 17 00:59:48 <infobot> it has been said that docscrutinizer is jOERG, a HW-developer and engineer of Openmoko
Aug 17 01:01:37 <MohammadAG> Ken-Young, is topmost and topmost changed
Aug 17 01:01:43 <DocScrutinizer> Ken-Young: I know it's the way QML works on harmattan
Aug 17 01:01:46 <MohammadAG> look at HildonProgram
Aug 17 01:02:00 <DocScrutinizer> ooh, listen to MohammadAG :-)
Aug 17 01:02:09 <angelox|laptop> it's hard to talk to the dude that would fix my phone,and the attendant (generally) knows that Open-Source is something like a wall charger dissasembled :\
Aug 17 01:02:19 <Ken-Young> MohammadAG, Thanks!
Aug 17 01:02:27 <MohammadAG> I'm alive!
Aug 17 01:02:35 <angelox|laptop> DocScrutinizer: but i did like your idea! I'll use it probably :)
Aug 17 01:02:47 <MohammadAG> QML isn't helping with that last bit
Aug 17 01:05:42 <DocScrutinizer> MohammadAG: I'm glad to see you're alive :-D
Aug 17 01:06:00 <DocScrutinizer> and one year older? congrats
Aug 17 01:06:11 <MohammadAG> oh yeah, I'm 18 now :P
Aug 17 01:07:33 * angelox|laptop still 14 :(
Aug 17 01:08:22 <DocScrutinizer> MohammadAG: seen what angelox|laptop told us? obviously IL and neighbours aren't the worst places to buy hw - in brazil they call up USD160 for a BL-5J :-O
Aug 17 01:08:23 <MohammadAG> I wish I could be 14 again
Aug 17 01:08:28 <MohammadAG> would change lots of things
Aug 17 01:08:40 <MohammadAG> wtf
Aug 17 01:08:44 <MohammadAG> it's like 20 bucks here
Aug 17 01:08:52 <angelox|laptop> yes :(
Aug 17 01:09:17 <angelox|laptop> i did pay about USD550 in my N900
Aug 17 01:09:29 <MohammadAG> well, that's not as bad as the 850 I paid
Aug 17 01:09:36 <Venemo_N950> heh
Aug 17 01:09:45 <Venemo_N950> that's why I bought it used
Aug 17 01:09:56 <DocScrutinizer> that's ridiculous, so a N900 is like 2..3 batteries worth? C'MON Brazil, are you mad?
Aug 17 01:10:13 <angelox|laptop> i think i'll buy a used BATTERY :-)
Aug 17 01:10:22 <cehteh> heh
Aug 17 01:10:27 <cehteh> search harder
Aug 17 01:10:37 <angelox|laptop> we need also see the cotation :\
Aug 17 01:10:48 <cehteh> Iceweasel can't find the server at www.amazon.br.
Aug 17 01:10:50 <cehteh> hah :P
Aug 17 01:11:09 <MohammadAG> angelox|laptop, can't you ebay it or something?
Aug 17 01:11:09 <nox-> reminds me of some `media' shops that have ok prices for bigger things but charge a premium for simple things like cables... :)
Aug 17 01:11:28 <nze> i just made a full system backup but can't seem to find my sms messages; where do those go?
Aug 17 01:11:41 <MohammadAG> /home/user/MyDocs/.backup
Aug 17 01:12:03 <MohammadAG> err, nvm, thought we were talking about the N950
Aug 17 01:12:09 <cehteh> you can get an ok'ish 3rd party battery for less than 10Eur (or Dollar)
Aug 17 01:12:10 <MohammadAG> /home/user/MyDocs/Backups/ I think
Aug 17 01:12:22 <cehteh> not as good as the original but useable
Aug 17 01:12:27 <angelox|laptop> MohammadAG: I prefer bringing it to a support center :) at least i won't pay anything (i hope )
Aug 17 01:12:30 <cehteh> well few are even better
Aug 17 01:12:34 <angelox|laptop> hah
Aug 17 01:12:54 <angelox|laptop> about USD60 a not original one
Aug 17 01:12:55 <dunelj_> hi, anybody here have a bit time to change a web application UI to suit N900?
Aug 17 01:13:08 <angelox|laptop> (now i did calculate with current cotation)
Aug 17 01:13:24 <angelox|laptop> quotation*
Aug 17 01:13:25 <cehteh> search for nokia 5800 batteries ... they are the same but that phone is far more common
Aug 17 01:14:21 <angelox|laptop> USD120 
Aug 17 01:14:29 <angelox|laptop> :(
Aug 17 01:14:31 <dunelj_> the one people recommand cost $14...
Aug 17 01:14:45 <angelox|laptop> Should i live in another country? :)
Aug 17 01:14:46 <cehteh> try another shop i cant believe that price
Aug 17 01:14:47 <dunelj_> Thats a common Chinese brand...
Aug 17 01:15:04 <nze> MohammadAG: yeah thx, what i meant was "where in the backup can i find the texts?" 
Aug 17 01:15:06 <dunelj_> Chinese own half of Nokia productions.
Aug 17 01:15:21 <angelox|laptop> cehteh: I'm getting that price at 'MercadoLivre',it's the Brazillian version of Ebay :)
Aug 17 01:15:32 <cehteh> well try another
Aug 17 01:15:35 <nze> i was looking through the zip's and just found my calendar data, settings and emails etc
Aug 17 01:15:41 <nze> but no trace of sms messages
Aug 17 01:16:24 <angelox|laptop> wow
Aug 17 01:16:29 <angelox|laptop> if i tell you will not belive
Aug 17 01:17:11 <angelox|laptop> USD240 Nokia 5800 Original Battery
Aug 17 01:17:42 <cehteh> where in brazil are you?
Aug 17 01:17:53 <dunelj_> how???
Aug 17 01:17:57 <angelox|laptop> Sao Paulo
Aug 17 01:18:04 <dunelj_> ebay sells free shipping
Aug 17 01:18:20 <dunelj_> angelox|laptop:  just check some free shipping all over world one.
Aug 17 01:18:31 <cehteh> it 'might' be that i travel to chile next year with a stop over in sao paulo :P
Aug 17 01:18:46 <angelox|laptop> and the taxes?
Aug 17 01:19:06 <cehteh> prolly i should bring a bag of n900 batteries and sell them for $50 there :P
Aug 17 01:19:06 <dunelj_> angelox|laptop:  does anything sold on ebay count tax?
Aug 17 01:19:11 <angelox|laptop> cehteh: So,don't buy anything :-)
Aug 17 01:19:25 <angelox|laptop> cehteh: I hope i find you haha :)
Aug 17 01:20:00 <angelox|laptop> <dunelj_>: I know peoples that needed to pay about USD50 of taxes
Aug 17 01:20:11 * cehteh needs a new n900 battery too soon
Aug 17 01:22:02 <angelox|laptop> At first time N900 came here,it was about USD3.000~
Aug 17 01:22:09 <angelox|laptop> That's normal?
Aug 17 01:22:21 <cehteh> wow
Aug 17 01:22:24 <nox-> mine was like 350eur or so
Aug 17 01:22:40 <cehteh> 499 eur or so for me .. 
Aug 17 01:22:57 <angelox|laptop>  everybody may be thinking "He's lying..."
Aug 17 01:23:18 <nox-> you just have a crazy gov't
Aug 17 01:23:20 <nox-> :(
Aug 17 01:23:33 <angelox|laptop> can i post a link here?
Aug 17 01:23:36 <cehteh> well here are shops in germany which still list it with 600Eur
Aug 17 01:24:09 <angelox|laptop> for everyone that want to see: http://produto.mercadolivre.com.br/MLB-195538404-bateria-do-celular-nokia-5800-_JM
Aug 17 01:24:28 <nox-> cehteh, yeah but he seems to be unable to find a _battery_ for less than $50 or so...
Aug 17 01:24:56 <cehteh> well, tax luxory products to finance social welfare in a relative poor country isnt that bad imo .. but if this hits your luxus demands its bitter :P
Aug 17 01:25:35 <nze> when you do a full backup, are your sms messages saved? i guess they should be but skimming through the backup archives i can't seem to find anything
Aug 17 01:25:39 <nox-> how much r$ is an us$?
Aug 17 01:26:02 <angelox|laptop> 1 R$ = USD1.5
Aug 17 01:26:31 <nox-> so thats still over 100 $ us...
Aug 17 01:26:46 <cehteh> 159 Reais = 99,937224 US-Dollar
Aug 17 01:26:52 <nox-> for a stupid battery...
Aug 17 01:26:57 <nox-> ok
Aug 17 01:27:02 <nox-> still :)
Aug 17 01:27:05 <cehteh> well really search another shop
Aug 17 01:27:12 <angelox|laptop> sorry
Aug 17 01:27:21 <angelox|laptop> 1.5 R$ = USD1 :-)
Aug 17 01:28:08 <angelox|laptop> i see a dx product, Mini Bluetooth, USD1.8 ...
Aug 17 01:28:16 <cehteh> http://produto.mercadolivre.com.br/MLB-191317283-bateria-bl-5j-para-celular-nokia-c3-com-frete-gratis-_JM
Aug 17 01:28:22 <cehteh> come on
Aug 17 01:28:38 <angelox|laptop> It isn't original :)
Aug 17 01:28:51 <angelox|laptop> i'm not sure if non-original works finely :)
Aug 17 01:29:32 <angelox|laptop> cehteh: i'll buy that one maybe
Aug 17 01:29:33 <cehteh> http://www.tudocelular.com/Acessorios/noticias/n21750/bateria-2400mah-dobrando-autonomia-nokia-5800.html
Aug 17 01:29:34 <cehteh> haha
Aug 17 01:30:04 <cehteh> angelox|laptop: yes that one is very cheap and has no name on it
Aug 17 01:30:19 * angelox|laptop cries about that photo
Aug 17 01:30:21 <cehteh> better take some which has some name and doesnt fake nokia
Aug 17 01:30:55 <cehteh> this copies are sometimes (often) not as good as the original .. but work more or less, with greatly variyng success
Aug 17 01:31:09 <cehteh> some have less than 500mah some have more than the original
Aug 17 01:31:23 <angelox|laptop> i've saw some Nokia N900 fakes phones called "Nockia N902" :)
Aug 17 01:31:33 <angelox|laptop> i see..
Aug 17 01:32:42 <cehteh> there are plenty fakes
Aug 17 01:32:47 <angelox|laptop> about that USB Bluetooth (USD1.8) i find for 10 Reais, = 15 dollars
Aug 17 01:33:52 <angelox|laptop> That's why i want to live in Germany~Russia~United Kingdom :)
Aug 17 01:39:12 <cehteh> hah here in germany (and most of the EU) electronics are relative expensive too because of taxes
Aug 17 01:46:09 <DocScrutinizer> cehteh: nah not really
Aug 17 01:46:27 <DocScrutinizer> russia is bad though either, at least customs are mad
Aug 17 01:47:55 <DocScrutinizer> NOKlA N900 (or Nokla N900) found at chinese sellers a lot
Aug 17 01:49:15 <nze> i think i have a problem
Aug 17 01:49:18 <nze>  % ls -lAh mnt/home/user/MyDocs/music/\[PERL76\]-\[2009\]-\[Shackleton\]-\[Three_Eps\]
Aug 17 01:49:19 <nze> total 2.9T
Aug 17 01:49:19 <nze> -rw-r--r-- 1 29999 root  2.3G May 24  2035 ⌡%#?╔ƒ╨.??
Aug 17 01:49:19 <nze>  
Aug 17 01:50:06 <nze> about 1.6k lines of trash follow (can be found at http://pastebin.com/HZkVnCkj)
Aug 17 01:52:57 <DocScrutinizer> http://www.nokiaphones.net/nokla-n900-is-similar-to-original-only-by-appearance/
Aug 17 01:53:42 <DocScrutinizer> nze: LOL
Aug 17 01:54:40 <nze> yeah apple fanboys, go find me an iphone rocking 2.9T internal storage!
Aug 17 01:55:00 <DocScrutinizer> eh?
Aug 17 01:55:35 <DocScrutinizer> looking at >> ls -lAh mnt/home/user/MyDocs/ << I think you really got a problem
Aug 17 01:57:04 <nze> looks like the internal memory got a few dead spots around there, but that's just my wild guess
Aug 17 01:58:28 <DocScrutinizer> looks like you got sth in /mnt that's not supposed to be there?
Aug 17 02:00:33 <nze> i just mounted my n900's root with sshfs at ~/mnt
Aug 17 02:00:58 <DocScrutinizer> looks like you got sth in /mnt that's not supposed to be there?
Aug 17 02:00:59 <DocScrutinizer> ~png
Aug 17 02:01:00 <infobot> i heard png is the Portable Network Graphics format, a format for storing images on computers. Unofficially its acronym stands for ``PNG's Not GIF.'' PNG was designed to be the successor to the once-popular GIF format, which became decidedly less popular right around New Year's Day 1995 when Unisys and CompuServe suddenly announced that programs implementing GIF would require royalties. http://www.libpng.org/pub/png/
Aug 17 02:01:00 <DocScrutinizer> ~ping
Aug 17 02:01:01 <infobot> ~pong
Aug 17 02:01:47 <DocScrutinizer> nze: I'd say this mount probably went wrong somehow
Aug 17 02:03:18 <DocScrutinizer> might be mounted as fat16 or sth, maybe
Aug 17 02:03:20 <nze> DocScrutinizer: doesn't seem like it, i similar weird behaviour when i access the folder from the device itself
Aug 17 02:03:39 <nze> eg i can't rm that folder
Aug 17 02:03:50 <DocScrutinizer> hmm, then I strongly suggest to run fsck.vfat on it
Aug 17 02:03:54 <nze> gives me input/output errors
Aug 17 02:04:39 <DocScrutinizer> preferably via/on  PC after connecting the device via mass stroage + USB
Aug 17 02:06:58 <DocScrutinizer> anyway the ls output is so obviously wrong from first to last bit...
Aug 17 02:07:08 <angelox|laptop> Ok,i'm going to sleep now! Bye Everyone
Aug 17 02:07:19 <angelox|laptop> Thanks a Lot DocScrutinizer and ShadowJK!
Aug 17 02:07:27 <DocScrutinizer> MyDocs is VFAT, filesize is limited to 2GB
Aug 17 02:07:40 <DocScrutinizer> angelox|laptop: yw, and good luck
Aug 17 02:07:59 <DocScrutinizer> and good night :-)
Aug 17 02:08:05 <angelox|laptop> DocScrutinizer: Thanks,tomorrow i will call to Nokia,i'll tell here anything :)
Aug 17 02:08:12 <angelox|laptop> thanks! Good night to you too! 
Aug 17 02:08:34 <angelox|laptop> And Good night to [0-9][a-z] people in this channel :-)
Aug 17 02:12:33 <DocScrutinizer> nze: now I see it, is a sshfs mount even supposed to span filesystems? you say you mounted / to local /mnt, and MyDocs is a mount of VFAT on /home, which in turn is a mount of ext3 on /, which actually is ubifs
Aug 17 02:13:31 <nze> DocScrutinizer: i just fired up fsck and it finds loads of corruptions
Aug 17 02:13:44 <DocScrutinizer> I'm not surprised
Aug 17 02:13:49 <nze> i'll try to take care of these first :)
Aug 17 02:14:19 <DocScrutinizer> I'd take care of unmountig that possibly rogue sshfs mount first
Aug 17 02:15:18 <DocScrutinizer> though I guess you already did, otherwise fsck wouldn't really answer politely to a check instruction of that fs
Aug 17 02:15:28 <nze> ofc. fsck on the device exposed through usb mode
Aug 17 02:15:58 <DocScrutinizer> :nod:
Aug 17 02:16:03 <nze> actually fsck is finding so many problems i'm wondering if it'll get me anywhere
Aug 17 02:16:15 <DocScrutinizer> probably not
Aug 17 02:17:32 <DocScrutinizer> looks to me like (parts of the) whole partiton got wrong offset so directory blocks are not located anymore
Aug 17 02:18:27 <DocScrutinizer> this can happen if the partition got mounted incorrectly and then something been written to it
Aug 17 02:19:37 <DocScrutinizer> mounting a whole flash stick as a superfloppy rather than a partitioned HDD is such a typical situation where all offsets are wrong
Aug 17 02:20:11 <DocScrutinizer> and writing to first "free" block actually would destroy the partition table
Aug 17 02:21:38 <nze> well the majority of the partition seems quite usable still
Aug 17 02:21:45 <DocScrutinizer> frequently seen to happen when on mount command the partition is "forgotten", i.e. if you mount /dev/sda instead of /dev/sda1
Aug 17 02:23:41 <nze> well i'm just running a fsck -n to get an overview of all the errors without manually correcting them all and the output file already counts some 40k lines
Aug 17 02:24:05 <nze> i guess it'll be a reflash then?
Aug 17 02:24:10 <DocScrutinizer> what's the device you run fsck on?
Aug 17 02:24:30 <nze> /dev/sdb
Aug 17 02:24:36 <DocScrutinizer> HAHAHA
Aug 17 02:24:57 <DocScrutinizer> isn't it /dev/sdb1 you want to check?
Aug 17 02:25:01 <nze> nope
Aug 17 02:25:16 <DocScrutinizer> mhm
Aug 17 02:25:27 <nze> the partition shows up as /dev/sdb
Aug 17 02:25:48 <nze> which is weird enough..
Aug 17 02:29:23 <nze> maybe this gives any clue? output of parted: http://pastebin.com/duyX3ZWf
Aug 17 02:31:51 <DocScrutinizer> nze: ok, actually on PC it doesn't show up as a partition. It can't as N900 exports the partition as a singulary device
Aug 17 02:34:07 <DocScrutinizer> parted looks good - if done on PC with device connected as mass storage
Aug 17 02:35:12 <nze> what to do then?
Aug 17 02:36:09 <nze> i already made backups, so i guess i could give fsck with auto-correction a shot
Aug 17 02:39:38 <MohammadAG> Docscrutemp, I've seen my N900 export both as a block and as a partition
Aug 17 02:40:54 <nze> any suggestions before i get the heavy tools out?
Aug 17 02:42:16 <DocScrutinizer> well, my parted output looks weird too: http://paste.debian.net/126453/
Aug 17 02:42:51 <DocScrutinizer> nze: I'd probably run a mkfs.vfat on device
Aug 17 02:46:02 <DocScrutinizer> MohammadAG: I think it might export uSD as full device with partitions, while it obviously exports MyDocs as partition only, which means there'll be no partition table on client system, as the data area of mydocs is all it gets to see
Aug 17 02:51:08 <DocScrutinizer> nze: if I had to guess, I'd think your MyDocs got treated by a partitoning tool creating a partition table on first block on MyDocs
Aug 17 02:51:34 <DocScrutinizer> as if MyDocs was a raw physical device
Aug 17 02:52:15 <DocScrutinizer> I could be wrong though, and your parted output is maybe even more sane than mine, though I dunno what's causing the difference then
Aug 17 02:53:24 <DocScrutinizer> my mount output: /dev/sdd on /media/Nokia N900 type vfat (rw,nosuid,nodev,uid=1000,utf8,shortname=mixed,flush)
Aug 17 02:53:47 <nze> DocScrutinizer: i never really played around with it a whole lot though and certainly can't remember repartitioning it...
Aug 17 02:53:47 <nze>  
Aug 17 02:54:20 <nze> fwiw: % parted --version
Aug 17 02:54:20 <nze> parted (GNU parted) 3.0
Aug 17 02:54:26 <DocScrutinizer> connecting it to a windows machine you could partition it by one accidental click I guess
Aug 17 02:55:11 <DocScrutinizer> hmm, that explains a bit: parted (GNU parted) 1.9.0
Aug 17 02:56:33 <DocScrutinizer> anyway parted shouldn't know to do sth about MyDocs, as there's no partition table supposed to exist there aiui
Aug 17 02:59:19 <DocScrutinizer> cfdisk:
Aug 17 02:59:21 <DocScrutinizer> Disk Drive: /dev/sdd
Aug 17 02:59:22 <DocScrutinizer> Size: 28995223552 bytes, 28.9 GB
Aug 17 02:59:24 <DocScrutinizer> Heads: 64   Sectors per Track: 32   Cylinders: 27652
Aug 17 02:59:26 <DocScrutinizer> no partitions
**** ENDING LOGGING AT Wed Aug 17 02:59:57 2011