**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Thu Sep 08 02:59:57 2011 Sep 08 04:49:56 DocScrutinizer, fyi I found the culprit: http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p=526638&postcount=2 Sep 08 05:43:18 in what repo is netcat available .. or better can anyone please give me the binary only (recovering device with full rootfs) Sep 08 05:47:21 got it Sep 08 05:56:49 * slonopotamus hack-hack-hack Sep 08 06:04:14 its not a good idea to place the n900 in front of the laptop where its bluetooth antenna is Sep 08 06:04:21 mouse becomes very jerky Sep 08 06:05:55 nah, I need to leave now... going to class :) Sep 08 06:05:57 bb Sep 08 06:07:48 wireless mouse? Sep 08 06:12:52 MohammadAG: ping Sep 08 06:51:56 psycho_oreos: so you are going to fix it and patch the package? Sep 08 06:53:32 DocScrutinizer, I've fixed it (rather.. I'm using the lazy way out), as for patching the package? not likely at this point lol my patch isn't worth considering to be frank.. I really need to look deeper into the scripts to understand it all, I skimmed through the script but was quite confused so I'm gonna not bother with it until I have a nice sysimage :) Sep 08 06:54:50 also, I know this is really really old stuff but the other day I flipped my device (N900) upside-down whilst the car was still somewhat warm (though getting cooler because of aircon was running) as I was driving back home. The result with LED? no difference, it still dims its brightness level Sep 08 06:55:07 so yeah its the temp sensor elsewhere Sep 08 07:03:37 not so old stuff. I also tried a few things, but found no further clear details on what's going on. Except it's related to high temperature but missing the additional bits relevant for it to show up Sep 08 07:12:02 -rw-r--r-- 1 root root 5.0G Sep 8 09:10 mydocs.img Sep 08 07:12:02 ... eek image backup over wlan takes some time Sep 08 07:13:07 well WLAN tops out at around 1-2MBps, go figure :) Sep 08 07:13:22 yeah Sep 08 07:13:35 maybe i should add a compress into that pipe Sep 08 07:13:38 well too late now Sep 08 07:13:45 i just wait Sep 08 07:13:59 heh I wouldn't have a clue on where else to search for info as to why LED would automatically diminish its brightness intensity :/ but I've tried flipping the device over which is no dice as well.. oh well Sep 08 07:14:23 I've learnt that pretty much when I was doing rsync (really bad idea imo) Sep 08 07:15:08 what led dimming problem do you have? Sep 08 07:15:19 if anything it'll be nice to somehow have N900 either connected to the wired LAN via mUSB -> Cat5/6/etc cable + charger lead or maybe just go through USB networking lol Sep 08 07:15:20 display or notification? Sep 08 07:15:38 notification, it does that when it senses differences in ambient temperatures Sep 08 07:16:26 its not too much of a big deal but it was definitely evident :) Sep 08 07:16:37 err big deal (for me that is) Sep 08 07:17:35 sure its not just lighting level? Sep 08 07:17:49 and speaking previously slightly on patching packages, I was pondering on the thought of recreating a big midi_addon package lol Sep 08 07:17:52 no Sep 08 07:18:04 well my notification led sometimes behave strangely too Sep 08 07:18:18 if you leave your N900 out in the sun for maybe 5 minutes and take it back in, it'll dim the LED level on the notification light Sep 08 07:18:36 that new to me Sep 08 07:18:59 hi all, aptitude segfault here and never worked. is this a known issue? Sep 08 07:19:03 some people told it turns off when the brightness sensor gets excessive light Sep 08 07:19:25 its to do with a temperature gauge, DocScrutinizer is far more knowledgable to me in this area. I've noticed that when he was mentioned this awhile ago, before then I was thinking it was just me that was seeing notification LED was dimming due to ambient heat variances Sep 08 07:19:46 not the LED screen, the LED notification light :) Sep 08 07:19:52 yes Sep 08 07:19:56 bash`, yes, aptitude GUI Sep 08 07:20:10 psycho_oreos: yep, we cannot do anything about? Sep 08 07:20:15 bash`, however aptitude CLI works fine however Sep 08 07:20:17 i was always wondering why mce doesnt modulate the led by ambient light Sep 08 07:20:31 prolly they had a half baked attempt in it which now bugs :P Sep 08 07:20:37 bash`, MohammadAG was the one that made the package, he said something about a missing/broken dep that makes aptitude not work Sep 08 07:20:39 psycho_oreos: you mean 'aptitude update/install/remove', yes they work here Sep 08 07:20:54 cehteh, *shrugs* that's nokia for you ;) but yeah Sep 08 07:21:02 bash`, yes aptitude why, etc :D Sep 08 07:21:03 psycho_oreos: ok, then I should read debian dependencies Sep 08 07:21:42 psycho_oreos: where I can found an howto about packaging for maemo? Sep 08 07:21:44 bash`, iirc there might have been a tmo thread about it.. maybe bugs.maemo or wiki.maemo.. *shrugs* I may have seen the issue in detail somewhere Sep 08 07:21:55 thanks Sep 08 07:21:59 bash`, err that too lol Sep 08 07:22:19 that also reminds me.. I'm about to find that `cheatsheet' on repackaging deb Sep 08 07:22:42 psycho_oreos: I usually use qtcreator :P Sep 08 07:22:48 but I guess isn't a clean solution Sep 08 07:23:06 I download the code, apply patch, build in qt creator, then I get it installed on my n900 Sep 08 07:23:40 bash`, I'm using that dpkg method (which obviously requires one to have at least dpkg-dev installed) Sep 08 07:23:42 "22 packages upgraded, 0 newly installed, 0 to remove and 0 not upgraded" <3 loves this Sep 08 07:24:01 cehteh: psycho_oreos: I have the weird idea of LED chip heating up by direct sun radiation falling on the chip thru the light path Sep 08 07:24:11 psycho_oreos: you build your package on the n900 or on the pc? Sep 08 07:24:54 i never seen that problem Sep 08 07:25:02 DocScrutinizer, if you're referring to light path being on the upside of N900, it isn't :) its definitely a temperature sensor somewhere inside just taking ambient temps Sep 08 07:25:28 or the color led is temperature senstive :P Sep 08 07:25:39 bash`, PC initially but for repackaging I use N900 Sep 08 07:25:47 understand Sep 08 07:25:48 there's no other sound story about why ind LED dims with high ambient temp and sunlight, but *not* when running e.g. video playback for hours and heating up the whole device to 60°C by that Sep 08 07:26:05 cehteh, the colour LED is the LED we were on about :) notification LED in other words Sep 08 07:26:19 yes Sep 08 07:26:24 psycho_oreos: nope, I guess the LED itself is the temp sensor Sep 08 07:26:46 yes sometimes µC do such tricks Sep 08 07:27:06 but well there are certainly temperature sensors on the board too Sep 08 07:27:14 DocScrutinizer, ahh well that goes back to what you said :) like I said, I've flipped my device upside down when car was warm and device was randomly exposed to sunlight. It didn't help Sep 08 07:27:19 every LCD screen needs one for callibration Sep 08 07:27:28 but i dont know if thats exposed Sep 08 07:28:08 nonono, the LP5523 just has a very sophisticated compensation based on temperature, and I guess that runs completely out of rail when temp of LP5523 chip is different to the temp of LED itself Sep 08 07:28:12 the cpu has a temperature sensor too or? .. and there is some ambient temp sensor Sep 08 07:28:24 ahh Sep 08 07:28:43 psycho_oreos: put it in a fridge :P Sep 08 07:29:05 the LP5523 HAS temp sensor Sep 08 07:29:08 I don't think the CPU itself has temperature sensor, it was covered on tmo pk thread that bq2x00 also shows temp readings Sep 08 07:29:19 cehteh, no thanks :) Sep 08 07:29:24 (cpu also has one, but that's irrelevant and also broken) Sep 08 07:29:34 :o Sep 08 07:29:39 yes there are likely more than one temp sensor, maybe some are not exposed Sep 08 07:29:59 the LED flash prolly has one too Sep 08 07:30:13 does the camera module need one for calibration too? dunno Sep 08 07:30:34 LP5523 has a temp compensation coefficient setting, sth about +-NNNN 0/00 per °C Sep 08 07:30:49 I thought it would just do current-limiting? Sep 08 07:30:49 dunno if and how that register is initialized Sep 08 07:30:55 where is the temp sensor for the battery? Sep 08 07:31:13 check the component placement in schematics Sep 08 07:31:19 heh :) Sep 08 07:31:55 robbiethe1st: btw did you meanwhile fixed the filesystem handling in backup menu? (mount -t auto ...) Sep 08 07:31:58 fin R1110 Sep 08 07:32:01 find* Sep 08 07:32:18 Uh, no. Haven't messed with it since the last update a while back Sep 08 07:32:36 the flash controller has no temp compensation afaik Sep 08 07:32:44 i fucked my device up, currently backing up and then to a complete reflash Sep 08 07:33:06 And I've been very hesitent to do *anything* right now, because I lost most of my PC's data, which means I don't have flasher etc handy Sep 08 07:33:33 ooh, ugh Sep 08 07:33:44 robbiethe1st: i used backup menu to backup, then updated the kernel, then cssu install fucked up, restored from backup menu, but that installed the wrong kernel modules .. *BOOOOM* Sep 08 07:34:16 robbiethe1st: would be nice if backupmenu could validate to restore on the same kernel version Sep 08 07:34:17 hehe, I strongly suggested to add kernel backup yesterday ;-) Sep 08 07:34:22 yes i seen that Sep 08 07:34:47 well even if not at least it could bail out when kernel doesnt match or do not clean the partition before restoring Sep 08 07:34:50 so standard would be to backup/restore both same time Sep 08 07:34:55 rootfs & kernel Sep 08 07:35:27 cehteh: VERY hard to do such kernel tricks like verification Sep 08 07:35:35 not really Sep 08 07:35:37 well, maybe md5sum, but MEH Sep 08 07:35:48 ...I suppose I could try doing a uname -r and seeing if that folder exists within the right part of the rootfs directory structure Sep 08 07:35:58 yes Sep 08 07:36:01 Because that's the real problem Sep 08 07:36:02 exactly Sep 08 07:36:15 then what? refuse restore? Sep 08 07:36:27 just this uname check and have a option to restore without deleting the filesystem before Sep 08 07:36:48 give an option .. or more like "dont wipe kernel modules" Sep 08 07:36:53 I'm not averse if BM throws a warning. Anything beyond... :-/ Sep 08 07:37:23 well if restore bricks the device then i call that disfunctional :P Sep 08 07:37:33 well, not deleting modules sounds like a rather brilliant concept Sep 08 07:37:35 but none to blame but myself... Sep 08 07:37:44 You can always just load the kernel manually Sep 08 07:37:51 through flasher Sep 08 07:37:51 exactly Sep 08 07:38:06 I might be able to do something like that; have it say "kernel stuff is missing", and then give an option to continue anyway or use the modules from the current FS or abort Sep 08 07:38:07 well my device was partially bricked before Sep 08 07:38:13 pretty please do not try to outsmart user Sep 08 07:38:14 so i invoked restore Sep 08 07:38:15 MohammadAG: thank you for your great work! Sep 08 07:38:27 which was the final nail on the coffin :P Sep 08 07:38:58 Nah; you can always -- now -- load that kernel with the -K option, and it'll boot fine Sep 08 07:39:02 robbiethe1st: just an option not to delete the filesystem and restore overwriting existing file then would be enough Sep 08 07:39:13 robbiethe1st: tagging backups with uname-a was a great idea anyway Sep 08 07:39:45 combine that with "restore all but modules" Sep 08 07:39:50 happy camper Sep 08 07:40:02 you can restore modules Sep 08 07:40:17 but dont wipe existing ones before restore, let restore overwrite Sep 08 07:40:20 combine that with an option "restore all but modules" Sep 08 07:40:29 to be verbouse Sep 08 07:40:32 bash`, repacking deb (I can't find that tmo thread, I swear that bookmark is on my desktop PC which has a dead PSU :/): http://thegrebs.com/irc/debian/2011/01/25 <--- search for time 13:05 and user named prahal Sep 08 07:40:33 the problem is the wiping Sep 08 07:40:34 http://www.linuxfordevices.com/c/a/News/MeeGo-rumored-to-go-to-Samsung/ <-- erm Sep 08 07:40:41 Nah; what I'd do is simply copy them out of the ramdisk after I'm done with the restore Sep 08 07:40:52 Seeing as I have em all copied over anyway in recent versions Sep 08 07:41:17 bash`, s/05/08/ Sep 08 07:41:24 psycho_oreos: great! thanks Sep 08 07:41:29 robbiethe1st: actually i would unpack the tar over a existing filesystem (without rm before) Sep 08 07:41:31 have to run, but this needs further discussion to find the best scheme Sep 08 07:41:54 http://www.theregister.co.uk/2011/09/08/htc_sues_apple_with_google_patents/ <-- hmm Sep 08 07:41:56 cehteh, Nah... then you end up with conflicting files and such. Or at least losing all your space Sep 08 07:41:59 bash`, nw Sep 08 07:42:15 and after that in userland (or maybe from BM) i would have a option to delete files left over (tar -tf and diff that with whats existing) Sep 08 07:42:53 only if the filesystem explodes (full) i'd fall back to a shell for the user to clean up manually Sep 08 07:43:38 Nah; for advanced stuff like that you should simply use the terminal mode. Then you can restore/list/copy whatever the hell you want Sep 08 07:44:28 well you know the program i dont :) prolly i should have read the manual before :P Sep 08 07:45:10 anyways like doc saied, not removing modules would be the next best choice Sep 08 07:45:14 The current version has a built-in terminal mode(requires power-kernel, though), as well as a remote terminal over SSH or serial-console-over-USB Sep 08 07:45:41 yes but you have to know where the backups are stored and how the system is rigged when you are in BM Sep 08 07:46:12 oh robbiethe1st, I could never get root terminal/console over serial to work, initially they complained login applet not found so I copied over the login applet (which is part of busybox). It then complained about /bin/bash not found so I created a test user with ash environment and its still failing to give me a prompt saying that /bin/ash is not found when there's already a symlink to the busybox bin Sep 08 07:46:25 http://www.theregister.co.uk/2011/09/07/bsa_survey_pirate_software/ <-- sure... Sep 08 07:46:42 /home/user/MyDocs/systemBackup Sep 08 07:46:42 Fuck BSA Sep 08 07:46:44 something like that Sep 08 07:47:13 But, erm, I have to say that if people are messing around with mixed backups, they darn well better be understanding the internals of the system Sep 08 07:47:52 Otherwise, they can simply take a backup of the broken system, restore to known-good, and then open the broken tar-files from within Maemo(or a PC) copy over what they want Sep 08 07:48:03 (which would generally just be a file or two) Sep 08 07:48:41 ruskie, its like BSA themselves never committed any sins before whinging of others doing so :) funny ironically Sep 08 07:48:52 Yeah Sep 08 07:48:55 robbiethe1st: well then at first some sanity check that a restore will not conflict with the kernel would be nice Sep 08 07:49:15 cehteh, That I will do. And the kernel-module-check/restore bit. Sep 08 07:49:20 That sounds good to me Sep 08 07:49:59 btw instead of tarm squashfs the backup would be a nice option, compresses better, faster and preserves attributes better than tar Sep 08 07:50:09 (not that this is really needed) Sep 08 07:50:25 but one could mount the backup directly for selective restore Sep 08 07:50:46 or why not use the technique DocScrutinizer discovered, using that mtd_debug tool :) Sep 08 07:50:52 and yes that would only work on power kernels Sep 08 07:51:04 nandread/write Sep 08 07:51:09 mtdtools pkg Sep 08 07:51:24 DocScrutinizer: does that work on the n900? Sep 08 07:51:32 and whats even more is that I think you might be able to mount it on the fly Sep 08 07:51:34 cehteh, yes Sep 08 07:51:58 imo the whole rootfs should be a squashfs .. Sep 08 07:52:13 I thought squashfs wasn't writable? Sep 08 07:52:16 its ubifs for stability Sep 08 07:52:17 (and a unionfs for changed things) Sep 08 07:52:33 ah yes i forgot ubi :P Sep 08 07:52:50 well there is no stable unionfs in the kernel yet grr Sep 08 07:53:29 that would solve a shitload of problems, the rootfs could be readonly, never reflash to get back to a pristine state Sep 08 07:54:26 and you can't have more userland CLI tools :p Sep 08 07:54:28 good morning Sep 08 07:54:31 that plus many other flaws Sep 08 07:54:31 * RST38h moos Sep 08 07:54:42 psycho_oreos: why that? Sep 08 07:54:43 cehteh, erm... Sep 08 07:54:47 * psycho_oreos imagines busybox-power would never install as well Sep 08 07:54:55 cehteh, The rootfs rairly fails. It's the optfs that always does so Sep 08 07:55:18 cehteh, That's why BackupMenu will almost always boot when things break - because it only uses stuff on the rootfs Sep 08 07:55:18 well the whole optfs idea is borked Sep 08 07:55:39 its better than sticking with 256MB of usable space :) Sep 08 07:56:23 eh? Sep 08 07:56:41 thats completely unrelated Sep 08 07:57:14 optfs idea was to expand the limitations of NAND's limited space :p sure its not ideal but its better than nothing.. and what would have been ideal is if the whole thing were to not be running on NAND space Sep 08 07:57:50 use nand for readonly essential things Sep 08 07:58:08 do bind mounts or unionfs mounts Sep 08 07:58:18 but not this crappy optification Sep 08 07:58:45 ~optification Sep 08 07:58:46 i heard optification is a inventive duct tape workaround to reclaim space in fs root, done due to the fact the systeminit *and* partitioning is FUBAR, http://wiki.maemo.org/Documentation/Maemo_5_Developer_Guide/Packaging,_Deploying_and_Distributing/Installing_under_opt_and_MyDocs, or ""OMG - I wish somebody had looked into FHS and moved /usr to eMMC"", http://www.pathname.com/fhs/pub/fhs-2.3.html#PURPOSE2 bullet1,2 and fhs-2.3.html#PURPOSE16 dot3 Sep 08 07:58:48 i used to setup normal systems with 16MB rootfs which have not this limitations as the nokia setup has Sep 08 07:59:01 cehteh: that would make problems with updating the rootfs, though Sep 08 07:59:05 I wouldn't do that personally.. 256MB NAND is especially useful as a fast swap space :p as compared to swapping on eMMC as is with having more space on NAND than on eMMC Sep 08 07:59:11 edheldil: no it wont Sep 08 07:59:43 you cant swap to nand and if that wears out then your device is really a brick Sep 08 07:59:55 correction, the speed comparisons on NAND and eMMC is really neglegible Sep 08 07:59:55 more ram and compcache ftw :P Sep 08 08:00:19 no need for bindmounts, a normal mount of an usr partition is all it needs Sep 08 08:00:22 its bound to wear out.. even eMMC doesn't last a lifetime :p Sep 08 08:00:41 DocScrutinizer: yes even that, but with bind mounts it could be done little more elegantly Sep 08 08:01:19 hmm Sep 08 08:01:35 normal fstab setup, maybe initrd boot, then the initrd could be on nand, and users can fuck up their userland without bricking the device Sep 08 08:02:08 this charge mode (if it would be necessary, i even doubt that) could be a initrd state Sep 08 08:02:25 * DocScrutinizer51 ponders to put orphaned initrd partition to use Sep 08 08:02:27 maybe even kexec into a user installable kernel from the readonly boot kernel in nand Sep 08 08:03:34 i really wonder what the nokia guys who did that have smoked, looks to me that they never worked on linux/unix before and then decided to reinvent their own wheels Sep 08 08:03:38 funny enough we had lots of it on diablo Sep 08 08:15:06 ~botsnack Sep 08 08:15:06 :), DocScrutinizer51 Sep 08 08:15:47 that j* tether thing in meego is reinvention of linux iptables rewriting, is not it? Sep 08 08:16:23 DocScrutinizer51: make me a linux phone with no horrendously stupid decisions pls Sep 08 08:16:39 dunno meego, harmattan seems to have quite standard iptables Sep 08 08:17:38 kerio: will take like 5 iterations, as initially you dunno what's stupid Sep 08 08:18:01 maemo had just enough iterations when they abandoned it Sep 08 08:18:03 :-P Sep 08 08:18:15 DocScrutinizer51: ok, start iterating, i'll pay you when you're done Sep 08 08:18:27 haha Sep 08 08:19:34 some things however, like '256MB will never be enough' ae easy to tell aforehand Sep 08 08:20:05 DocScrutinizer51: let's add a touchscreen to the back of the openpandora! Sep 08 08:20:21 sure, why not Sep 08 08:20:24 or... huh, make the screen turnable Sep 08 08:20:38 just Openpandora, duh! Sep 08 08:20:55 then we add a modem Sep 08 08:21:10 designing phones is easy Sep 08 08:21:16 I planned exactly that, with raster Sep 08 08:21:59 pandora dudes weren't even interested in any dialog Sep 08 08:22:07 :( Sep 08 08:23:17 also the openpandora still has the 256mb problem ._. Sep 08 08:30:21 who needs any on-board memory, just put everything into the cloud?-o Sep 08 08:36:01 flux: oh you :) Sep 08 08:46:46 sure, netboot, lean client, cool. just gimme a wireless network technology that offers connectivity everywhere, with minimal battery requirements ;-P Sep 08 08:46:58 NFC? =) Sep 08 08:47:12 seems to me that's about what iPhone initial design been all about X-P Sep 08 08:47:59 RST38h: and what will I do when the device is more than 5cm away from the "AP" implanted in my palm? Sep 08 08:50:27 hehe Sep 08 08:56:05 DocScrutinizer: biggier antenna :) Sep 08 08:57:11 * DocScrutinizer ponders heading out getting tea and shocking some Nokia store drones with a N950 Sep 08 08:58:37 lol Sep 08 08:58:42 in what way? Sep 08 08:58:52 "please can you update the OS for me"? Sep 08 08:59:13 or "I need a 2nd one for my GF" Sep 08 08:59:42 or "Found this in a bar, do you know what it is?" Sep 08 09:01:26 .. "Nokia send it to me, it sux, could you take it back?" :) Sep 08 09:03:18 I would be careful with that last one Sep 08 09:12:23 OMFG THEY JUST BROKE IGOOGLE! Sep 08 09:12:52 * RST38h clicked on "reload" and got the "new tablet-improved" UI. Sep 08 09:31:07 lol this'll be interesting, still in the middle of upgrading CSSU and got a phone call from me mate. He prank called me and when I tried returning his call twice I couldn't connect to him lol Sep 08 09:43:05 nobody toldya to remove SIM prior to major firmware upgrades? :-S Sep 08 09:43:39 ever heard about "cherry" ? Sep 08 09:43:52 well you see normally its meant to set the device into offline mode if one were sane (and used HAM), but I wasn't sane and I used fapman lol Sep 08 09:43:57 yeah I know all those Sep 08 09:44:24 I'm sure I won't be seeing `cherry states' unless I do a complete reflash :D Sep 08 09:44:32 and I won't be looking forward to that either Sep 08 09:46:16 honestly, installing CSSU via fapman is completely nuts Sep 08 09:47:03 cehteh: I'll just ask for accessories for that particular model ;-P Sep 08 09:47:50 rofl Sep 08 09:47:59 make sure to have a hidden camera or something Sep 08 09:48:05 hehehe Sep 08 09:48:40 I also seriously do not understand how much space and where exactly does it need that space in HAM for CSSU update. I have (at time of writing) 30 or so MB of rootfs space + 77MB or so space for optfs. Mind you this is with a heavily optified setup and lots of butchered rootfs userland CLI tools installed (when one was not supposed to install the said tools on N900's rootfs) Sep 08 09:48:59 and voice recording on N900 ;) Sep 08 09:49:28 ahh it used up optfs.. now to reboot and see the glory.. Sep 08 09:49:35 or the gore ;) Sep 08 09:50:08 I'll be prepared with a sigh for a gore :) I've just gone through there not long ago (yesterday) Sep 08 09:50:24 ahh Sep 08 09:50:35 I haven't needed a fresh flash in ages now(*knock on wood*) Sep 08 09:50:48 and again thanks tremendously to robbiethe1st for his BM, or I'd be pulling me hair out for the Nth(!!) time Sep 08 09:52:53 30M root + 77M opt, omg Sep 08 09:52:55 yesterday I tried to backup my setup before upgrading the CSSU, turns out I had fubared optfs+eMMC (both ext3). I fsck both three times and cleared the errors (until basically fsck ran cleanly) and I had a fubared setup :) Sep 08 09:53:36 small isn't it? ;) Sep 08 09:53:48 30M root + 77M opt :) Sep 08 09:53:56 Dw, I'll be tearing my hair out for you! Sep 08 09:54:09 Well, as soon as I start trying to port the damn thing to the N950 Sep 08 09:54:26 forgetit Sep 08 09:54:29 lol no need :) and plus you'll have more fun.. as you just spilled the beans lol Sep 08 09:54:49 It's not exactly private... I talked about it on the topic Sep 08 09:54:54 about two weeks ago Sep 08 09:55:14 I know I know... I just get that bit of chill when N950 is mentioned :p Sep 08 09:55:24 aegis will make you laugh XP Sep 08 09:55:43 don't worry, N9 will have it.. and without a hw keyboard to boot Sep 08 09:55:43 Aegis, the only reason I doubt Harmattan will have a CSSU Sep 08 09:56:00 Unless we can disable it, yeah Sep 08 09:56:14 http://www.theregister.co.uk/2011/09/08/apple-sues-samsung-over-galaxy-smartphone-in-japan/ <-- erm Sep 08 09:56:18 It's why I shake my head every time someone says the N950 is better than the N900 Sep 08 09:56:28 (or N9, for that matter) Sep 08 09:56:42 oh ure you can disable aegis, but then things like mediaplayer etc won't work anymore. Probably no dialer as well Sep 08 09:57:25 Effing hell Sep 08 09:57:45 N950/N9 is better in some ways than N900 in terms of hardware.. but all three said devices are crippled in their own ways lol.. N900 has hardly much of a future, N950/N9 is plagued with aegis Sep 08 09:57:46 win Sep 08 09:58:21 To be honest, after hacking my N900 into submission, I still don't see a faster device around Sep 08 09:58:58 robbiethe1st: appart from some hickups I second that Sep 08 09:59:14 what, the 1GHz + 512MB RAM didn't make that much of a difference? :) Sep 08 09:59:21 And well... I know the N950 developers have their work cut out - things like a simple LED torch seem like they'll require some major hacking. Sep 08 09:59:34 if it didn't make much difference it sounds like harmattan is bloated lol Sep 08 09:59:56 Well, erm... thing is, on the N900, if you tweak it right you don't run into the limits Sep 08 10:00:19 And I'm running mine at 500,950mhz, so the CPU speed isn't an issue either Sep 08 10:00:31 psycho_oreos: get trackerd apt-worker and hildon-* under control and your device is responsive, working smooth and does not crash more often than any other device I know Sep 08 10:00:37 the thing is, N950 is smooth, but tell me, how wuld I evaluate true speed when nothing works on this aegis coffin? Sep 08 10:00:52 Setting the lower speed to 500 improved battery life slightly, and really improved responsiveness. And DocScrutinizer is right Sep 08 10:01:27 chem|st, I've never really have my N900 crashing apart from the ugly hacks to optification that I've recently incorporated lol Sep 08 10:01:40 thought aegis is just one nail in the coffin^^ Sep 08 10:02:00 time for ((i=1000000; i>0; i--)); do :; done Sep 08 10:02:04 psycho_oreos: that is what I am talking about... ever since 1.3 Sep 08 10:02:05 DocScrutinizer, lol I wonder if you can run coremark CPU benchmarks. I ran my N900 on it and submitted the score at one stage Sep 08 10:02:25 1.2 froze on me quiet often Sep 08 10:02:36 And, I have to say.. I don't see the advantage of the new, shiny, Swipe UI. Assuming it works perfectly, it's still worse than the good old Hildon UI, because you can't close programs from within the program. Sep 08 10:03:08 chem|st, I've only had laggy responses even with 1.2.. and 1.2 had battery management woes (i.e. chews battery like there's no tomorrow) Sep 08 10:03:26 robbiethe1st, lol ouch Sep 08 10:03:45 robbiethe1st: 100% ACK Sep 08 10:03:57 And that's *not* a bug, if you look at the official documentation Sep 08 10:04:22 but you still got to admit that having a hardware keyboard there is really handy.. if touchscreen keyboard UI is laggy/screwed you still have hardware keyboard.. come N9 and you won't have a choice Sep 08 10:04:29 also the weird idea of browser bookmarks cluttering the already awkward app grid - eeeew Sep 08 10:04:45 Oh gees. I haven't tried that, but... Sep 08 10:04:59 Mainly because I can't see how to change the default browser's font size. Sep 08 10:05:59 And, I have to say.. I don't see the advantage of the new, shiny, Swipe UI. Assuming it works perfectly, it's still worse than the good old Hildon UI, because you can't close programs from within the program. Sep 08 10:06:05 next versions will be swipe down to close Sep 08 10:06:14 i.e by N9 release Sep 08 10:06:23 maybe Sep 08 10:06:27 no, for sure afaik Sep 08 10:06:31 doesn't make the concept better Sep 08 10:06:45 the concept is excellent Sep 08 10:06:51 and awesome, I don Sep 08 10:06:55 I WANT MY DESKTOP SCREEN Sep 08 10:07:02 't need a lock code so my friends don't unlock my phone Sep 08 10:07:04 8 of them Sep 08 10:07:06 they just can't figure how Sep 08 10:07:09 pfft Sep 08 10:07:14 8 is so last year Sep 08 10:07:30 rotate the 8 90 degrees and that'd be awesome Sep 08 10:08:03 the concept of widgets can be done on Harmattan Sep 08 10:08:08 the task switcher design helps Sep 08 10:08:18 when you swipe out, an app can switch to a bigger view Sep 08 10:08:26 I frequently drop that aegis coffin like a hot potato uttering "MEH!" when it comes to task switching Sep 08 10:08:26 sure it's not a desktop, but it's nice Sep 08 10:08:41 oh and the events view has a whether icon next to the date in release SW :p Sep 08 10:10:18 honestly, WAY TO MUCH iPhome/andridiot-me-too Sep 08 10:10:39 true Sep 08 10:11:10 they'll always be the second best when trying to compete by copying BS Sep 08 10:11:34 swipe doesn't change that Sep 08 10:12:12 the features of maemo being desktop like is what makes it still attractive Sep 08 10:12:57 Yea Sep 08 10:13:04 Also, erm... where's the ' button? Sep 08 10:13:08 on the N950 Sep 08 10:13:58 MohammadAG: got a paypal I can send you $$ Sep 08 10:13:59 even my "not so" tech savvy father asked me if he could handle it as he likes the functionalities Sep 08 10:14:13 cityLights, I can't take $$ for the CSSU if that's the reason ;) Sep 08 10:14:29 I see Sep 08 10:14:33 why? cause it's a big colalb by nicolai, acrean, freemangordon, thp, qwerty12, etc Sep 08 10:14:38 collab* Sep 08 10:14:43 and taking money isn't right for that Sep 08 10:14:43 the advantage of fremantle was the customizable desktop screens with shortcuts, the almost desktop alike concept, things like submenues on applauncher screen (albeit an option), the relatively "normal" browser, with its own bookmarks etc. They nuke all this for looking like all the other crap-phones Sep 08 10:14:44 I wanted to help cssu somehow Sep 08 10:15:01 it's like your boss taking money and not giving you any for your work Sep 08 10:15:32 theoretically, I don't consider my "position" in the CSSU higher than anyone's, a lot of the contribs have done more than I have Sep 08 10:16:32 Hm, so... testing: "time sh -c 'for i in $(seq 1 1000000); do:; done'" Sep 08 10:17:34 robbiethe1st: won't probably fly, as seq 1 1000000 will bust shell's cmdline buffer, on expansion Sep 08 10:17:46 N900/N950 | real: 13.22/13.69 | user: 12.72/12.35 | sys: 0.19/0.87 Sep 08 10:17:52 Nah, it worked. Sep 08 10:18:29 meh Sep 08 10:20:08 I tried the other for-style loop, but it didn't work on the N950, so.. Sep 08 10:20:37 sure, it's bash syntax Sep 08 10:21:17 and actually a "x=`seq 1 1000000`; echo $x" works - I'm amazed Sep 08 10:23:19 1000000 Sep 08 10:23:21 RM680-22-6_PR_RM680:~# time echo $x >/dev/null Sep 08 10:23:22 real 0m17.087s Sep 08 10:23:24 user 0m17.055s Sep 08 10:23:25 sys 0m0.016s Sep 08 10:25:28 t900:~# time echo $x >/dev/null Sep 08 10:25:29 -sh: time: Argument list too long Sep 08 10:27:07 put quotes around it Sep 08 10:27:31 btw i removed my µSD card today and found out its a class2 only .. but sandisk, performs almost as good as the emmc Sep 08 10:27:43 t900:~# bash Sep 08 10:27:44 t900:~# x=`seq 1 1000000` Sep 08 10:27:46 t900:~# time echo $x >/dev/null Sep 08 10:27:47 real 0m35.496s Sep 08 10:27:54 just for the note about how unimportant class ratings are Sep 08 10:28:53 suggests N950 ~2 times as fast as N900, sounds about right Sep 08 10:29:45 well .. with 4 times as much ram, in real it will feel much faster right? Sep 08 10:30:15 if you do the dance on on-device xterm, like "time echo $x" then you also could check gfx accel Sep 08 10:30:58 class ratings are up to individual manufacturers to rate their cards, not controlled by some central entity.. i.e. you can get a class 10 which will be no faster than class 2 of two unrelated brands Sep 08 10:32:04 well and class ratings are completely unrelated to the usage pattern you have on a smartphone Sep 08 10:32:34 testbed for SD card class ratings is a digicam storing photos continuously Sep 08 10:32:53 unfortunately it should if you are critcal about it, but alas there's still no central entity that manages and makes sure nobody gets ripped off Sep 08 10:32:57 delay between "ring-in" and actual action by ui Sep 08 10:33:07 loading time of websites Sep 08 10:33:23 battery time on wifi with all accounts logged in Sep 08 10:33:32