**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Mon Sep 12 02:59:57 2011 Sep 12 04:30:59 is there a way to query the device lock state of the device? (pin required) Sep 12 04:31:09 http://wiki.maemo.org/Phone_control lists only keyboard lock Sep 12 04:46:58 com.nokia.mce.request.get_devicelock_mode ... grep ftw Sep 12 04:52:48 .. bah bugs Sep 12 05:13:32 having an account for reporting bugs is the first hurdle to build a community Sep 12 05:13:46 $fail nokia .. Sep 12 05:31:49 cehteh, hmm most bugtrackers and projects require an account to report bugs... Sep 12 05:48:16 ruskie: yeah i dont like that, besides posting a bug against MCE is likely pointless Sep 12 05:49:04 i doubt nokia will care for maemo5 much anymore, nor will it be opensourced Sep 12 06:37:09 hello all... Sep 12 06:37:24 have a webkit error I'm trying to hammer out and was suggested to post it in this channel... Sep 12 06:39:53 when executing the browser I am porting, I get the following message: symbol lookup error /.../libstdc++.so.6: undefined symbol: ZNSt11__timepunctIcE2idE, version GLIBCXX_3.4 Sep 12 06:40:00 not sure what that means... Sep 12 07:09:09 CPUnltd: missing symbol, doesnt look like a standard function to me, prolly some implementation detail Sep 12 07:31:45 lol any of you guys installed extended-locked-media-control_0.1_armel.deb by qwerty12? looks like he left a parting note of his angerness Sep 12 08:00:13 psycho_oreos: ? Can you elaborate? Sep 12 08:02:28 edheldil, nevermind, looks like there's been plenty of people that have beaten me to it :) qwerty12 left a note when one installs that package which was made by him Sep 12 08:06:41 edheldil, fyi I was referring to this package: http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p=774637&postcount=1 and the note he left is available to read here: http://pastebin.com/GAxYw8yN. jd4200: http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p=774933&postcount=11 beat me to pasting that but oh well Sep 12 08:08:05 mece, ping Sep 12 08:14:33 Morning, all Sep 12 08:14:53 morning Sep 12 08:22:12 psycho_oreos: thanks. Sep 12 08:24:45 mece, if you see this message. I have placed your issue into bugzilla, whilst its not completely not working the GPS takes far longer than usual to lock down on GPS: https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=12399 Sep 12 08:24:49 04Bug 12399: GPS takes longer than usual time to acquire information from satellites Sep 12 08:25:24 edheldil, nw Sep 12 08:25:42 how long is usual? Sep 12 08:25:55 It usualy took 4 minutes for me, Sep 12 08:29:14 I think it took around 6-7 minutes, and this is with assistance mode on (i.e. communicates with the SUPL server Sep 12 08:30:27 hmm this gives me a bit of an idea Sep 12 08:39:02 has anyone (of you :) used an uvcvideo webcam with n900 host mode? it seemingly works, the module is there, I get /dev/video2 but trying it with gst-launch dies with either the error that it can't allocate memory (tried num-buffers=1 too) or "no space on device" Sep 12 08:39:53 some googling gives stuff from 2006 hinting something about ARM mmap but I dunno Sep 12 08:40:46 archl, you don't use agps at all do you? Sep 12 08:41:22 psycho_oreos: No, I don't. Sep 12 08:41:35 psycho_oreos: I just test it while others driving :D Sep 12 08:41:56 archl, bugger, that's why it takes time to lock down :) I needed some confirmation.. I guess I'm more or less on my own on this one Sep 12 08:42:40 archl, lol if I could get the whole nokia-maps or whatever to work with voice-nav, etc I'll be happy to mount it on me car :) Sep 12 08:43:23 psycho_oreos: you don't need ovi map.. it not going to show you accurate position... Sep 12 08:44:57 archl, I agree it doesn't show you accurate position, but the GPS functionality could be handy in numerous ways.. plus it also sort of doubles N900 as a `cheap man's' GPS device Sep 12 08:46:40 use some other maps that will get you right position, like modrana. it also got voice aid Sep 12 08:47:35 Hi I'm trying to upgrade the kernel on my n900 from the power42 kernel to at least power47. I have 'extras-testing' enabled but it won't get a later version. Can I manually get it? Sep 12 08:47:48 problem with modrana is for one to `cut' up the maps for installation into device, but of course there's plenty other navigation products like mappero, marble, etc Sep 12 08:48:18 you can manually get it but you'll have to manually install 3 or 4 packages (I think it was 3) Sep 12 08:48:32 you may as well enable extras-devel, you get power48 Sep 12 08:49:12 psycho_oreos: ok, the 4th day I got N900, I enabled extra-devel *^* Sep 12 08:49:36 It has been 2 months now. Sep 12 08:50:49 will 48 work with cleven? Sep 12 08:51:18 archl, I can't even recall when I first enabled extras-devel but definitely not within the 4th day of N900 ownership.. I wasn't too keen ;) Sep 12 08:51:33 hp2510p, you mean with lxp's bleeding-edge drivers? yes Sep 12 08:51:41 beautiful Sep 12 08:51:59 so if I enable extras-devel will the process to install power42 automatically install power48? Sep 12 08:52:36 yes its automatic if you update the repo list and do upgrade.. it won't be fully automatic if you have uboot/multiboot in the way for instace Sep 12 08:52:40 s/instace/instance/ Sep 12 08:52:42 psycho_oreos meant: yes its automatic if you update the repo list and do upgrade.. it won't be fully automatic if you have uboot/multiboot in the way for instance Sep 12 08:53:59 a repo list upgrade can be done via the application manager, right? Sep 12 08:55:07 yes, it'll automatically update when you make changes to repository list Sep 12 08:55:43 basically that little popup menu that says its checking for updates is when its updating the lists from repositories Sep 12 08:56:30 cool Sep 12 08:56:50 it could be done via the console in the same way it would be done on any debian system right? Sep 12 08:57:19 and I personally wouldn't advise using HAM (Hildon Application Manager), with extras-devel enabled, CPU usage on high could last for up to 10 minutes Sep 12 08:57:22 yes Sep 12 08:57:49 debian system or debian package management based system such as ubuntu, mint, knoppix, backtrack, etc Sep 12 08:58:31 psycho_oreos: can i change the size of the button on left-top corner? Sep 12 08:58:50 psycho_oreos: I don't know how to call it, is that home button? Sep 12 08:59:36 archl, not sure what's it called.. might be called a `multi' button but don't quote me on it.. and not really.. I believe it would be somewhere inside the themes.. like maybe /usr/share/themes Sep 12 09:01:20 psycho_oreos: ok, thanks, I want it be curve look. Sep 12 09:06:24 I wish they had built an ethernet port into this puppy, it would make a nice little webserver Sep 12 09:08:01 psycho_oreos: ok, let's see how long my GPS takes today :-) Sep 12 09:09:00 DocScrutinizer, you have the latest CSSU installed as well? I think I may have found a workaround but I'm suspicious of this workaround being an instant success Sep 12 09:13:55 thankyou for the help, power48 is now installed! Sep 12 09:19:20 hmm, has anyone seen this bug on the n900? Quite frequently when I go out of the screen-lock the camera-application starts. as if the camera-protector is opened Sep 12 09:20:14 A) GPS sucks Sep 12 09:21:06 B) 10s of direct sun to frontside suffice to dim the indicator LED when it starts flashing on TK_lock Sep 12 09:21:33 B)1) covering both LED and ALS doesn't change that Sep 12 09:21:38 :-o Sep 12 09:21:50 ?! Sep 12 09:22:03 dreamer i've never had that Sep 12 09:22:18 now for A), what's been this alternative google supl? Sep 12 09:22:25 DocScrutinizer: I have difficulities with gps too. It takes to long before it detects GPS. Don't know if this is common on other devices as well? Sep 12 09:22:35 Moo, gentlemen Sep 12 09:22:42 moo RST38h Sep 12 09:23:00 google maps works like a sharm on N900 with geolocation (gps) but the + and - buttons is not present, so that makes it pretty unusuabel Sep 12 09:23:27 nokia has yet to implement a decent gps in their devices Sep 12 09:24:01 detail I noticed: A/supl placed me ~2° lat higher, and 1° lon more to west Sep 12 09:24:24 than where I got last fix yesterday Sep 12 09:24:32 DocScrutinizer, that's what I used and it seems to lock on real quick.. the problem is that I cannot repeat the same issue again.. I'm guessing because I'm using mobile broadband with another provider, they probably have cached data.. hence the almost instantaenous lockdown.. maybe even moreso with the other device already locking down way beforehand.. hmm Sep 12 09:24:33 and where I'm today still Sep 12 09:24:51 Doc: The continent is drifting Sep 12 09:25:06 Doc: toward the huge hole in the North Pole. Sep 12 09:25:07 lol Sep 12 09:25:09 RST38h: supl.nokia.com is drifting away Sep 12 09:25:15 WEAREALLGONNADIE!!! Sep 12 09:25:31 WHATSGOOGLESIPLURL? Sep 12 09:25:35 biston: well it's strange that this is happening since ~2 weeks now Sep 12 09:25:40 SUPL even Sep 12 09:25:46 almost every time I unlock the device Sep 12 09:25:54 Doc: Well, supl.google.com Sep 12 09:26:07 biston: and there hasn't been an update of anything. nor did I install any software Sep 12 09:26:09 yeah Sep 12 09:26:10 port 7276 Sep 12 09:26:23 7262 too Sep 12 09:26:40 err, I hope that's the default port Sep 12 09:26:48 which of the two? =) Sep 12 09:27:01 fsck any of those Sep 12 09:27:30 s/default/nokia supl/ Sep 12 09:29:17 \o/ supl.google.com -> 20s Sep 12 09:29:33 with supl.nokia.com it had no fix after 5 min Sep 12 09:29:38 jepp instead of supl.nokia.com I too use supl.google.com Sep 12 09:29:52 thought as much, there've been no firmware updates to GPS Sep 12 09:30:00 but still it is slow I think, but what is slow is the detection of GPS, could take several minutes Sep 12 09:30:51 testing right now Sep 12 09:30:54 looking for gps Sep 12 09:31:00 well, it had been fast for me here, then I recently noticed it sucks, and with google it's back to normal sub-30s TTFF Sep 12 09:31:40 port 7275 for supl services.. I checked that via running wireshark on wlan0 and then columbusGPS Sep 12 09:31:58 still looking for gps Sep 12 09:32:07 it seems it's not unusual Nokia purposely breaks supl for their "aged" devices Sep 12 09:32:33 `from nokia, with love' lol Sep 12 09:32:37 I think it has looked for gps in almost two minutes now Sep 12 09:33:42 malin: doesn't mean a thing unless you're in same location with same orientation of device and same weather as before when it been faster Sep 12 09:33:51 Doc: no ill intent there Sep 12 09:34:04 Doc: I doubt anyone at Nokia still *remembers* this supl server exists Sep 12 09:34:05 even then you *might* have spotted a gap in GPS sat coverage Sep 12 09:34:20 DocScrutinizer: it always use this long time Sep 12 09:34:50 I am located in Norways third largest city, but maybe that dosen't mean a thing? I Just can't imagen other people wait this long Sep 12 09:34:55 on their androids? Sep 12 09:35:07 then either you're actually holding it wrong (no kidding), or you're in a locaton with poor signal from sats Sep 12 09:35:12 I have waited in 4minutes Sep 12 09:35:32 Holding it wrong? how should I hold it then? Sep 12 09:35:44 if you got too poor signal you can't compensate that by waiting longer Sep 12 09:35:56 landscape upright Sep 12 09:36:05 not covering left upper corner Sep 12 09:36:30 Don't think there is poor coverage for satelites here. The local university is one of the first in the world with a campusguide-app who use gps as a navagiation tool so you can figure out where you are at campus Sep 12 09:36:42 on the screen side of the device? Sep 12 09:36:51 yeys Sep 12 09:37:00 I see. I had it placed on my desk Sep 12 09:37:01 s/yeys/yes/ Sep 12 09:37:02 psycho_oreos meant: yes Sep 12 09:37:04 så I didn't touch it Sep 12 09:37:18 it found the gps now. Took five minutes only Sep 12 09:37:39 yeah, now make that desk dielectrically active, or of steel and you're done Sep 12 09:37:58 I put it on my couch instead Sep 12 09:38:17 hm.. Sep 12 09:38:25 it happend much faster now Sep 12 09:38:28 it found it Sep 12 09:38:31 so something is strange :) Sep 12 09:38:33 you're supposed to hold it up in the air upright landscape holding it on lower half only (or place it on desk witj stand:-D ) Sep 12 09:38:48 DocScrutinizer: okey :) Sep 12 09:39:27 it definitely has poor performance when placed flat on a table Sep 12 09:39:46 yeah, and now it lost contact Sep 12 09:39:53 but I have to go Sep 12 09:39:55 going for school :) Sep 12 09:40:36 now for the next big mystery of science and EE Sep 12 09:40:44 indicator light Sep 12 09:41:45 less than 10s full sun to screen and then tk_lock, and ind-LED is dim Sep 12 09:41:58 that's definitely no thermal effect Sep 12 09:42:18 except maybe in LED chip itself (for now) Sep 12 09:43:31 mhm, properly covering upper 20mm incl LED and ALS witj my hand stops the efect Sep 12 09:44:52 it's ALS Sep 12 09:45:03 so: Sep 12 09:45:12 ~lart FSCKNG MCE Sep 12 09:45:13 * infobot executes killall -HUP FSCKNG MCE Sep 12 09:45:38 seems reasonable, thoug I'd prefer -KILL Sep 12 09:47:16 good morning people! Sep 12 09:49:55 what is the common ways to save user data in application? pickle? josn? xml? Sep 12 09:55:48 eichi: or sqlite db Sep 12 09:56:48 sqlite if you've got it Sep 12 09:57:13 Or, for things like config, you can go with pickle/whatever-text-format-is-easy Sep 12 09:59:33 I read about pickle security issues and I like portable and human readable data Sep 12 09:59:41 maybe I try xml Sep 12 10:00:11 also it should not have to much depencies. python xml is default on maemo5? Sep 12 10:00:26 either that, or just make comma/| seperated, \n delimited values Sep 12 10:00:29 sqlite needs a package i thing Sep 12 10:00:33 simple, easy to read. Sep 12 10:01:35 for cofig it is okay, but I have some data with hirarch. structure Sep 12 10:01:56 but never coded with xml but then its a good point to lern ;) Sep 12 10:02:13 robbiethe1st: thanks for discussing that Sep 12 10:02:53 Californian politician Scott __Wiener__ tries to curb nudism... Oh the irony. Sep 12 10:02:55 I think the XML modules would be a bit more problematic to learn, if you don't already know it Sep 12 10:05:14 archl, you found the name of that file that shows the icon on top left hand side? Sep 12 10:05:42 psycho_oreos: sorry, I just come back from dinner Sep 12 10:06:34 archl, heh nw, did you find the name of the file? I guess you didn't :) Sep 12 10:07:02 psycho_oreos: you are right, I haven't find it. Sep 12 10:07:13 :D glad to hear you telling me Sep 12 10:08:02 archl, /opt/usr/share/themes/alpha/images/wmTaskSwitcherIcon.png Sep 12 10:08:08 :p Sep 12 10:13:14 psycho_oreos: thanks :D but I want to change the size rather than the Icon image :D Sep 12 10:13:37 psycho_oreos: now I'm having moon cake. Sep 12 10:14:28 psycho_oreos: happy mid-autumn festival, probably your father celebrate it :D Sep 12 10:14:38 archl, ahh yes indeed, mid autumn festival. I had early one on saturday Sep 12 10:15:21 well you can't change the size but you can change the size within the file :P so that way you'll have a bigger image Sep 12 10:16:16 psycho_oreos: well, i want it be larger :D configurable UI would be fun Sep 12 10:24:23 ~lart mce Sep 12 10:24:23 * infobot puts mce through a wood chipper Sep 12 10:24:25 ~lart mce Sep 12 10:24:26 * infobot blasts mce with a huge firehose then strangles mce with it Sep 12 10:24:59 IroN900:~# grep lux /usr/lib/mce/modules/* Sep 12 10:25:01 Übereinstimmungen in Binärdatei /usr/lib/mce/modules/libfilter-brightness-als.so. Sep 12 10:25:21 IroN900:~# grep lp5523 /usr/lib/mce/modules/* Sep 12 10:25:22 Übereinstimmungen in Binärdatei /usr/lib/mce/modules/libkeypad.so. Sep 12 10:25:24 Übereinstimmungen in Binärdatei /usr/lib/mce/modules/libled.so. Sep 12 10:25:51 so HOW THE F*CK can indicator LED get dimmed by ALS sensing too much ambient light??? Sep 12 10:29:23 psycho_oreos, it was network location that didn't work. Sep 12 10:30:05 hmm, libdisplay.so obviously also has no link to "lux" and still evidently knows about ambient light Sep 12 10:31:06 Power saving measure. Sep 12 10:31:26 so it pretty much seems somebody thought it's a cool thing to dim ind-LED on bright ambient, and implemented that bullcrap on purpose Sep 12 10:31:26 It was assumed (by someone) that the light would not be visible in light of over x intensity Sep 12 10:31:26 mece, err ok now I'm confused.. so if that doesn't work you won't get an icon showing that its trying to acquire GPS satellites? Sep 12 10:31:57 yes Sep 12 10:32:26 psycho_oreos, or. Sep 12 10:32:33 SpeedEvil: it *would be* visible if it wasn't dimmed. And dimming is a terribly stupid thing, they as well could completely switch it off then Sep 12 10:32:39 mece, whoa ok, that sounds more serious than in my case lol I thought it was the case of it took forever to lock down GPS signal Sep 12 10:32:42 psycho_oreos, I got no location period. Sep 12 10:32:46 DocScrutinizer: sure Sep 12 10:33:16 psycho_oreos, I didn't really investigate that much Sep 12 10:33:20 mece, just curiously (even though this may not resolve the issue), have you tried changing the supl server to see if you can acquire a lock? Sep 12 10:34:07 psycho_oreos, no, and this issue might have been around for a while for me. I only checked because the tmo post asked if there were issues Sep 12 10:34:33 have you tried resetting the external paired BT GPS mouse to internal GPS, in settings? ;-P Sep 12 10:37:05 mece, ahh d*mn ok.. I thought we had similar issues :/ and on top of that it seems as though I might have resolved my own issue Sep 12 10:37:23 psycho_oreos, good :) How? Sep 12 10:37:53 supl.google.com ? Sep 12 10:38:05 mece, well I didn't have that issue without the GPS icon not appearing.. it does appear when I go back to home screen but yeah I tried supl.google.com Sep 12 10:38:13 yup DocScrutinizer beat me to it :) Sep 12 10:38:30 mece: ^^^ Sep 12 10:38:33 have you tried resetting the external paired BT GPS mouse to internal GPS, in settings? ;-P Sep 12 10:40:14 ahahaha.. that reminds me.. if my other N900 acquires GPS really quickly, and my old N900 doesn't but both has columbusGPS installed.. I could have set the other N900 up as bluetooth GPS mouse :D Sep 12 10:40:33 * psycho_oreos facepalms self Sep 12 10:41:17 * DocScrutinizer *hates* the idea google keeps track of all his GPS locations and IP Sep 12 10:41:52 its inevitable in this digital day and age :) Sep 12 10:41:57 just all hail to DHCP for 3G Sep 12 10:42:17 um... closed. Sep 12 10:42:41 even walking outside into the street exposes you to video cameras that can probably be publicly viewed through google web search and bit of security penetration Sep 12 10:43:11 bah, they don't know about my ever changing trout mask Sep 12 10:43:49 don't forget to dab superglue over all of yer fingers ;) Sep 12 10:44:06 why? Sep 12 10:44:17 leave no fingerprints behind Sep 12 10:44:22 do you think I ever dare to touch things that don't belong to me? Sep 12 10:44:50 well you still have to punch a few keys into ATM machine.. do EFTPOS transactions, etc, etc, etc :) Sep 12 10:45:15 there are knuckles and pens for that Sep 12 10:45:38 lol what a hassle, superglue for the laziness and for the win ;) Sep 12 10:45:52 feels shitty Sep 12 10:45:52 plus superglue costs like next to nothing these days :D Sep 12 10:46:17 indeed, but price of being a little careless and accidentally using fingers to dab on things that doesn't belong to you? priceless :D Sep 12 10:46:24 I got superglue all over my fingers more often that I like - I know how that feels ;-P Sep 12 10:46:54 * DocScrutinizer invented a cool thing - I call it "gloves" Sep 12 10:47:19 hahahaha, I never really had too many superglue on me fingers and I can vaguely recall my moments of having one.. definitely not convenient when I had to go to work and use my fingers to get through doors as well as signing in Sep 12 10:47:19 you know it's like a sock, but for your hand Sep 12 10:47:59 it needs to be clear or people will think you're nuts ;) the only other exception is on winter days.. but in summer, people would sweat in their gloves :D Sep 12 10:48:08 psycho_oreos: wut? you don't use a fingerprint stamp for that? Sep 12 10:48:36 DocScrutinizer, never tried but I don't think I can fool the biometric verification like that :) Sep 12 10:49:04 psycho_oreos: I dress like Michel Jackson, and people *know* I'm nuts while I'm actually not and can wear gloves whenever I like Sep 12 10:49:49 DocScrutinizer, lol bet that'd score you some freebies ;) Sep 12 10:51:51 it's just that dress doesn't match nicely to my trout mask usually Sep 12 10:52:16 and still it seems people recongnize me instantly - dunnno why :-P Sep 12 10:52:38 I think they got old of you wearing a fancy costume ;) Sep 12 10:52:39 but I bet google / picasa is lost on such a behaviour Sep 12 10:53:46 * DocScrutinizer yaws, and ponders to write /dev/urandom over /usr/lib/mce/modules/libfilter-brightness-als.so Sep 12 10:54:20 why not move that file somewhere else and create a null file in place? ;) Sep 12 10:54:54 or maybe I should study source of the apparently only foss thing in there: libfilter-brightness-simple.so Sep 12 10:55:30 *shrugs* or that Sep 12 10:55:52 ~kill mce Sep 12 10:55:53 * infobot shoots a magneto-ionized anti-neutrino gun at mce Sep 12 10:57:12 * DocScrutinizer ponders opening a ticket "mce reduces indicator LED brightness on high ambient light, in a braindamaged manner" Sep 12 10:57:21 damn I *must* be bored Sep 12 10:58:30 HAH tadaaa I could hack up the lp5523 kernel driver to simply ignore all mce madness Sep 12 10:59:05 lp5523.ko neeed an overhaul anyway, it's retarded Sep 12 11:00:11 basically cripples the nice LP5523 chip to a reduced set of capabilities and features similar to LP5521 Sep 12 11:00:29 damn I *must* be bored Sep 12 11:00:39 afk Sep 12 12:02:34 im trying to extract my calendar data from the phone backup files bit by bit, im on the Birthdays table from the sqlite db now and i have a column called DayMonth. the only bdate i remember is 5/21 which is converted to 420 in the column. any idea of how this 420 was calculated ? Sep 12 12:07:40 nevermind, i found a way Sep 12 12:07:42 I think the calendar engine is open source Sep 12 12:07:58 how? would be useful to have in channel logs Sep 12 12:08:27 there's another table with a startdate and enddate, which are unix timestamps to be converted Sep 12 12:08:58 i didn't know bdates are on that other table as well, that's all Sep 12 12:10:23 by the way, n900's contacts manager is so freakn messy. the extracted file has every contact 3 or 4 times Sep 12 12:50:11 Nuclear leak after explosion some 200km away from me. Sep 12 12:50:45 crashanddie: Do you see the glow? =) Sep 12 12:50:50 Not yet. Sep 12 12:50:59 Going to buy some marshmallows for the upcoming barbecue Sep 12 12:55:15 crashanddie, where are you based ? Sep 12 12:55:23 Perpignan Sep 12 12:55:53 thats far enough from here Sep 12 12:55:54 ;-p Sep 12 12:56:06 Haha Sep 12 12:56:31 * LinuxCode loves it how countries build their nuclear plants on the edges of the country Sep 12 12:56:41 best, close to somebody elses border Sep 12 12:57:03 especially if that neighbouring country imports half of the power from there, but itself doesnt wany nuclear power Sep 12 12:57:06 hehe Sep 12 12:57:11 Germany , for instance Sep 12 12:58:19 crashanddie, no need to panic Sep 12 12:58:21 There were no radioactive leaks after the blast, caused by a fire near a furnace in a radioactive waste storage site, a French nuclear official said. Sep 12 12:58:42 yeah Sep 12 12:58:53 saying that Sep 12 12:58:57 then you read on... Sep 12 12:59:04 the same way the nuclear cloud from tchernobyl magically stopped at the french borders (because it didn't have a passport?) Sep 12 12:59:07 ohh just btw, it recycles plutonium into mox fuel Sep 12 12:59:08 rofl Sep 12 12:59:19 crashanddie, hahaha Sep 12 12:59:34 for a French person, you do show some great insight into sarcasm Sep 12 12:59:36 ;-D Sep 12 12:59:48 Nuclear power just loves France. Always does exactly what the politicians say Sep 12 12:59:54 I'm not French, is why ;) Sep 12 13:00:00 ahhh hahah Sep 12 13:01:01 gotta give the French one thing though, they wont have power cuts, like germany in 20 years time Sep 12 13:01:17 when the wind doesnt blow Sep 12 13:01:19 ;-p Sep 12 13:02:06 * LinuxCode goes back to work Sep 12 13:02:55 france has brownouts because of nuclear power Sep 12 13:03:25 the nuclear power plants dongt adapt fast enough to power consumption changes Sep 12 13:03:37 but thats a different tale... Sep 12 13:03:59 * ShadowJK thought they were usable for balancing Sep 12 13:04:34 (but usually all nuclear plants are run for baseload and don't even attempt to balance) Sep 12 13:05:45 but i'm pro nuclear... i support everything that accelerates human self extinction Sep 12 13:05:57 no, none of those nuke plants were designed for frequent load changes. They may even break on that Sep 12 13:06:06 lets give earth a 2nd chance Sep 12 13:06:12 without homo sapiens! Sep 12 13:08:22 ShadowJK: never been a design or audit goal that the pipes, turbine, whatnot can withstand a huge number of temperature/pressure changes Sep 12 13:08:56 right so France has a deficit of balancing power then Sep 12 13:09:03 ! Sep 12 13:09:04 they're built to run @90..100% all the time, for decades Sep 12 13:13:16 i suspect the average "uptime" is <90% each year Sep 12 13:14:06 the number of power cycles is what counts Sep 12 13:14:39 like a car always driven for <3km then stopped again for hours Sep 12 13:14:57 will kill the engine, usually Sep 12 13:17:04 aiui you can run a power plant (nuklear) at 50% of max output and it doesn't care too much. But you don't want to crank up and down from 50% to 100% and back more than twice a year maybe Sep 12 13:17:31 "for the last 25 years EdF has used in each PWR reactor some less absorptive "grey" control rods which weigh less from a neutronic point of view than ordinary control rods and they allow sustained variation in power output." Sep 12 13:18:30 not the piping and pressure vessel and all the fittings etc pp though Sep 12 13:19:29 dang, even a Lavazza espresso machine service dude honestly suggested to keep the thing running as switching it down each night would kill the seals Sep 12 13:20:00 "PWR plants are very flexible at the beginning of their cycle, with fresh fuel and high reserve reactivity." ... "When they are 90% through the fuel cycle, they only take part in frequency regulation, and essentially no power variation is allowed" Sep 12 13:20:18 now I don't mind too much a killed seal on a Lavazza, not so on a nuclear popwer plant Sep 12 13:21:02 so like the newly refueled plants do load-following, and the ones close to refueling only participate in emergency regulation Sep 12 13:21:10 ShadowJK: we talk different topics Sep 12 13:21:31 ShadowJK: it seems exactly the opposite Sep 12 13:22:04 DocScrutinizer, I'm reading about what they're actually doing Sep 12 13:22:19 in france nuclear power behaves differnetly - obviously Sep 12 13:22:33 they must have a different physics Sep 12 13:23:10 they have, some of their statesmen ordered it - possibly DeGaule Sep 12 13:24:41 and to keep their secret wisdom and not share it to others, they use french terms for everything that nobody understands in the rest of the world Sep 12 13:24:44 ;-) Sep 12 13:24:57 SIDA, ordinateur Sep 12 13:25:02 OTAN Sep 12 13:25:27 they have nanoscaled orders of their president... so each uranium atom can read the orders Sep 12 13:26:10 heard they frequently even translate family names Sep 12 13:26:21 "France's nuclear reactors comprise 90% of EdF's capacity and hence are used in load-following mode and are even sometimes closed over weekends, so their capacity factor is low by world standards, at 77.3%. However, availability is almost 84% and increasing." Sep 12 13:29:04 heard this morning even France *starts* to think about when and how to end nuclear age Sep 12 13:29:46 they'll think for a very long time Sep 12 13:29:51 DocScrutinizer: translating famility is an urban legend. Sep 12 13:30:30 nah, our French teacher told us they did that on his last name Sep 12 13:30:59 wuld he lie to us pupils? ;-D Sep 12 13:31:22 DocScrutinizer: lines about nuclear power ine france did not moved. State and power industry say we won't change. sustainable-grow guys say we should get out. Sep 12 13:31:35 DocScrutinizer: what was it ? Sep 12 13:31:48 his name? Sep 12 13:32:02 the french grid company's realtime status website doesn't work in microb :( Sep 12 13:32:27 ShadowJK: use a french browser ;-P Sep 12 13:32:52 ShadowJK: URL ? Sep 12 13:33:06 http://clients.rte-france.com/lang/an/visiteurs/vie/tableau_de_bord.jsp Sep 12 13:33:37 DocScrutinizer: we translate family names as well - adding suffix to some female names Sep 12 13:33:44 needs java Sep 12 13:34:18 ok... now i know why they need nuclear power... Sep 12 13:34:27 too much java in france's internet Sep 12 13:34:28 :-P Sep 12 13:35:21 DocScrutinizer: yop his name Sep 12 13:35:36 Rottenbacher iirc Sep 12 13:41:11 people who are supposed professionals in IT and still miss the difference between "1" and "l" in production systems ought to be shot. Sep 12 13:41:17 Even more so, when it's INSIDE AN IP ADDRESS! Sep 12 13:42:23 agreed Sep 12 13:42:37 let me get my gun Sep 12 14:42:39 Meanwhile: HP is shipping a final batch of 6,000 HP Touchpads to the UK but only employees will be able to nab them, Sep 12 14:42:55 No, really Sep 12 14:44:26 I think the best side of the HP Touchpad thing is that it might've saturated the market a bit, so companies need to put out extra-good products out to be able to sell them :P Sep 12 14:47:05 The best side of HP Touchpad is that it has shown how dumb some business people can be Sep 12 14:47:39 With the right marketing, the Touchpad had all chances of succeeding (although not taking over the market of course) Sep 12 14:48:00 But they were only happy with taking over the market. Sep 12 14:48:02 Yet, they killed it, "window of opportunity closed", "there can only be Android and iPhone" Sep 12 14:48:06 Which was crack-pipe. Sep 12 14:48:16 Exactly Sep 12 14:48:31 "Can't become Apple? Well, fuck it." Sep 12 14:48:46 well, its right marketing and the rather large incentive of the psychological impulse price-point Sep 12 14:48:53 Meanwhile: http://www.theregister.co.uk/2011/09/12/tdss_rented_botnet_shenanigans/ Sep 12 14:48:57 The only way apple is getting knocked off the perch any time soon would be IBM-esque anti-trust issues. Sep 12 14:49:10 nid0: These things only cost $100-$200 to build Sep 12 14:49:20 nid0: It's not marketing to shove something out the door way below cost Sep 12 14:49:26 teardowns put the bom at $281 afaik Sep 12 14:49:32 Indeed. Sep 12 14:49:39 nid0: Then bring the price down Sep 12 14:49:40 $200 is under BOM Sep 12 14:49:52 RST38h: Bill of materials - how much the components cost. Sep 12 14:49:54 nid0: Bring the cost down, sorry. And sell for $250 or something Sep 12 14:50:06 Speed: I know what BOM is Sep 12 14:50:12 RST38h: You are going to have to shave something off the device to get it to hit $250 Sep 12 14:50:27 Speed: The Chinese manage it quite nicely Sep 12 14:50:34 Speed: Why can't HP? Sep 12 14:50:42 there are plenty of cheap tablets with cheap materials costs and cheap end prices Sep 12 14:50:43 The chinese are good at making tablet shaped objects. Sep 12 14:50:55 Meanwhile: http://www.theregister.co.uk/2011/09/12/tdss_rented_botnet_shenanigans/ Sep 12 14:50:57 but they tend to feel cheap, look cheap, and act cheap as a result Sep 12 14:51:10 With crappy LCD, crappy build quality, crappy processor, crappy integration, crappy battery life. Sep 12 14:51:29 REmoving the crappy adjective from each of those costs. Sep 12 14:51:34 hannspree's hannspad is a good example. for its cost, you sure as hell cant argue with it as it costs dick all, great if someone wants something cheap Sep 12 14:51:38 Build quality, integration - do not depend on BOM much Sep 12 14:51:44 but having used one, it most definitely is a cheap tablet Sep 12 14:52:06 RST38h: True. Memory, CPU, LCD, case does though. Sep 12 14:52:16 Speed: But even these can be optimized Sep 12 14:52:21 Sure. Sep 12 14:52:33 Speed:And are optimized, in my experience. When your motivation is to bring the costs down. Sep 12 14:52:51 Speed: And not solely to get a corporate promotion Sep 12 14:52:56 The fundamental problem is that there may be a little fat in HPs design. Sep 12 14:53:09 (and probably a fair bit in the corporate strucutre) Sep 12 14:53:23 But there isn't enough to get a profitable device of the touchpad class out at $200 Sep 12 14:54:09 Sure - you can do a cheap well-built tablet at that price -point - but the performance will be dissapointing. Sep 12 14:54:31 And if the CPU isn't cutting edge, app developers will have to work harder to get adewuate perfomrance - and they won't. Sep 12 14:54:45 Because it's a small platform and they can't be arsed. Sep 12 14:54:57 So you get a viscious circle. Sep 12 14:55:23