**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Wed Oct 12 02:59:57 2011
Oct 12 04:26:18 <digistim> hello all.  What is the best GPS navigation software available for the n900?
Oct 12 04:26:44 <sat2050> you can use nokia maps
Oct 12 04:26:47 <sat2050> but its slow
Oct 12 04:26:50 <sat2050> try mappero
Oct 12 04:26:52 <digistim> is that Ovi?
Oct 12 04:26:54 <sat2050> works on google maps
Oct 12 04:26:56 <sat2050> yes
Oct 12 04:27:20 <sat2050> mappero has voice navigation as well
Oct 12 04:27:28 <sat2050> even tho i am unable to figure out the accent
Oct 12 04:27:29 <sat2050> :P
Oct 12 04:27:52 <digistim> I've been looking around, haven't bought the n900 yet, I have n810.  But I drive for work and am considering a Garmin if the n900 navigation isn't up to it
Oct 12 04:28:10 <digistim> I'm seeing mixed reviews for the navigation software, I figured I'd ask
Oct 12 04:29:36 <digistim> Thanks, I'll look into mappero! I'm one of the poor souls that purchased Wayfinder Navigator on the n810 and was dumped
Oct 12 04:29:48 <dm8tbr> the N9 navigation is pretty good
Oct 12 04:31:16 <digistim> does n9 have similar features to n900?  I like the hackability of the n810
Oct 12 04:31:18 <sat2050> i like mappero
Oct 12 04:31:58 <sat2050> i dont hv much info on the meego platform
Oct 12 04:32:07 <dm8tbr> it doesn't have a keyboard, but the onscreen kbd is very good
Oct 12 04:32:13 <sat2050> lol
Oct 12 04:32:29 <sat2050> then its nothing like n900
Oct 12 04:32:33 <digistim> ovi maps is slow?
Oct 12 04:32:43 <dm8tbr> and the n9 is essentially still a maemo phone
Oct 12 04:33:19 <sat2050> @digstim yes it takes time to start
Oct 12 04:33:28 <digistim> maemo-mapper on n810 was ok...required internet connection for routing and map tile downloads.  Mappero is any better?
Oct 12 04:34:15 <sat2050> mappero is maemo-mapper 
Oct 12 04:34:27 <sat2050> i think upgraded version or something like that
Oct 12 04:35:34 <digistim> I love my n810, but I'm debating n900 or something running android
Oct 12 04:36:35 <digistim> Yea, the website for mappero says it is new maemo mapper
Oct 12 04:36:36 <sat2050> n900 is a nice machine
Oct 12 04:36:39 <sat2050> with raw power
Oct 12 04:37:13 <digistim> I may end up just getting the n900 for everything except navigation, and get a garmin for dedicated GPS
Oct 12 04:39:22 <digistim> n900 is kind of what I've always dreamed the n770 was when I first saw it.  I wasn't able to afford one until the n810 came out, but I've loved the linux flavored device since I heard about the n770
Oct 12 04:39:30 <sat20501> your battery wont last long enough
Oct 12 04:39:48 <digistim> which battery?
Oct 12 04:40:13 <sat20501> phone battery
Oct 12 07:53:03 <edheldil> Hi, anyone using PySide + phonon? I can't get audioOutput.setVolume(...)  or .setMuted() work, it's always playing on full volume
Oct 12 07:55:12 <MohammadAG> why not use QtMultimediaKit?
Oct 12 07:55:27 <MohammadAG> (which seems to work fine for me)
Oct 12 07:57:47 <edheldil> MohammadAG:  unless there was a new release, at least the python bindings were neutered - there was no *Player class or whatever it's called
Oct 12 07:59:03 <edheldil> I have submitted that as http://bugs.pyside.org/show_bug.cgi?id=885
Oct 12 07:59:05 <povbot> 04Bug 885: Certman tutorial seems to have wrongly formatted stuff
Oct 12 07:59:14 <MohammadAG> edheldil, afaik there are Qt Mobility pyside bindings
Oct 12 07:59:36 <woldrich> povbot, source
Oct 12 07:59:37 <povbot> woldrich: My source is at http://supybot.com/
Oct 12 08:01:59 <edheldil> MohammadAG:  are there now? They were missing about 3 months ago
Oct 12 08:02:00 <edheldil> or are they only in extras-devel or cssu?
Oct 12 10:11:16 <DocScrutinizer> Sony hack reloaded - haha
Oct 12 10:14:02 <DocScrutinizer> edheldil: when I say phonon makes me vomit, you bet I got a perspective to better that unbearable urge ;-D
Oct 12 10:17:14 <DocScrutinizer> and no, cssu is unlikely to provide missing python bindings. They can go to extras(-devel) which by definition rules them out for CSSU
Oct 12 10:17:56 <DocScrutinizer> CSSU is complementary, not alternative
Oct 12 10:22:37 <DocScrutinizer> umm that's probably a pretty puzzling statement. I meant: CSSU can use all the stuff from extras(-devel) and stock, except those things that CSSU is all about which are *replacements* of fremantle-metapackage components that introduce further issues and thus can't be done without massive meddling with the whole pkg dependencies, system config etc
Oct 12 10:26:58 <DocScrutinizer> python bindings seem to be no part of fremantle-metapackage, so they don't need CSSU and thus won't go to CSSU
Oct 12 10:31:46 <edheldil> DocScrutinizer:  I am really trying to get python multimediakit work, but it's pita - now some opython import segfault. Allegedly a 'rebuild' should fix it, but of what? And how? ... Phonon might suck, but *if* it at least somehow worked, it would be rather more practical solution
Oct 12 10:33:26 <edheldil> I mean: python -c "from QtMobility import Sensors" ... Segmentation fault
Oct 12 10:41:34 <DocScrutinizer> hmmm
Oct 12 10:43:10 <DocScrutinizer> sounds like either a error in usage (pebkac) or a severe bug that usually should get fixed by package maintainer in less than a week
Oct 12 10:44:35 <DocScrutinizer> (don't get me started about QTM-sensors, it seems to have some other way more severe basic design flaws)
Oct 12 10:45:25 <DocScrutinizer> (buzzword polling, missing root handlers)
Oct 12 10:47:37 <DocScrutinizer> general advice: if sth doesn't work, it's better to reduce abstraction level rather than adding another layer on top
Oct 12 10:49:22 <DocScrutinizer> random example: if sth can't get done in c, you don't try to interface to a c++ object to get it done, rather you consider implementing that function in assembler
Oct 12 10:52:55 <DocScrutinizer> and when python has no working bindings to generic audio, it feels really odd to add another layer of abstraction and use phonon, then complain that this added layer also is missing versatility
Oct 12 10:58:30 <bindi> so uhm 
Oct 12 10:58:36 <bindi> why doesn't mobile hotspot work? :<
Oct 12 10:58:56 <bindi> i press start, and the button changes to "stop"
Oct 12 10:59:06 <bindi> but i can't find it on another phone
Oct 12 11:06:05 <ruskie> bindi, uses ad-hoc mode iirc
Oct 12 11:22:49 <DocScrutinizer> yup. and might need PK
Oct 12 11:27:18 <hobbitme> http://www.usedbarcodescanner.com
Oct 12 11:27:40 <ruskie> yay for spam
Oct 12 11:35:15 <edheldil> DocScrutinizer:  for me the problem with phonon is that something that is expected to work (setMuted()) does not. It might be my local setup or something I miss, but so far I haven't found anything. 
Oct 12 11:37:30 <edheldil> There might be better solutions, but what's their use if they are hard to get working? MultimediaKit is worthless, if nobody has it installed. Or is there something else?
Oct 12 11:39:21 <edheldil> And do not get distracted with sensors, I do not use them, that was just an example of what broke after installing python qtm12 :). Pebkac it might be, but it's also in a bugreport which was closed with cryptic hints on something that has to be somehow rebuilt
Oct 12 11:41:59 <MohammadAG> edheldil, it's a simple dependency
Oct 12 11:44:03 <edheldil> sorry, I was venting my frustration :(
Oct 12 11:52:14 <edheldil> anyway, after upgrades to qtm12 I get the segfault above :(
Oct 12 11:53:15 <edheldil> MohammadAG:  dependency on what package, btw?
Oct 12 15:02:48 <vilociraptor> i installed opera like 2 days back, and just now I got a notification that there is an update available for that
Oct 12 15:03:00 <vilociraptor> is opera still developing for maemo this means?
Oct 12 15:04:28 <chem|st> vilociraptor: you don't need to develop for maemo, you just need the build tool form the platform or wrapping once and you can build your mobile oriented program against any update
Oct 12 15:05:04 <vilociraptor> hmm
Oct 12 15:05:26 <vilociraptor> so they must have that for multiple platforms? and we benefit from thats also
Oct 12 15:05:56 <chem|st> guess so, I doubt they explicitly devel for maemo
Oct 12 15:07:16 <vilociraptor> yea i was thinking that too
Oct 12 15:07:24 <vilociraptor> but if they do its very nice of them hehe
Oct 12 15:26:02 <flux> hmm, maybe it's just me, but how do I set the time of day of n900, when I don't have a SIM card in?
Oct 12 15:26:27 <flux> I try pressing the time of day in the clock app, but the time zone, date and time settings are grayed out
Oct 12 15:28:30 <flux> ('date' as root solved this)
Oct 12 15:42:31 <DocScrutinizer> settings -> time and language -> time and date -> "automatic time update": off, time -> <set time>
Oct 12 15:47:41 <timeless> flux: out of curiosity, what language does your device speak?
Oct 12 15:48:04 * timeless has slightly different text and was wondering if the text would be easier or harder for someone to understand
Oct 12 15:48:57 <DocScrutinizer> ooops, that's been for N950/HARM
Oct 12 15:49:13 <DocScrutinizer> for N900/fremantle though it's not that much different
Oct 12 15:50:28 <DocScrutinizer> the common "trick" is to uncheck "automatic time update"
Oct 12 15:50:41 <timeless> DocScrutinizer: remember i have my own localization
Oct 12 15:50:50 <timeless> i don't think your path is particularly wrong
Oct 12 15:50:56 <timeless> well time and language doesn't exist as such
Oct 12 15:51:07 <timeless> and time and date might or might not have had an & instead of "and"
Oct 12 15:51:43 <timeless> (who remembers, they randomly mixed & and and :)
Oct 12 15:51:55 <jargon-> can .mkv videos be played on the n900 in freemantle?
Oct 12 15:51:56 <DocScrutinizer> javispedro: moo
Oct 12 15:52:03 <javispedro> hi there DocScrutinizer 
Oct 12 16:09:23 <flux> timeless, english?
Oct 12 16:10:19 <timeless> US or UK ? :)
Oct 12 16:10:40 <timeless> also are you using the latest nokia release or the community update?
Oct 12 16:11:32 <flux> UK. but no, I'm not :)
Oct 12 16:15:50 <timeless> you're using neither latest nokia nor the community update?
Oct 12 16:15:52 * timeless trembles in fear
Oct 12 16:16:15 <Pieplay> Hi
Oct 12 16:17:33 <Pieplay> can someone tell me if there is a secondary menu index list (default : /etc/xdg/menus/hildon.menu)
Oct 12 16:17:55 <Pieplay> this one does not contain all app entries
Oct 12 16:19:39 <ShadowJK> Opera seems like someone who makes actual good code :-)
Oct 12 16:22:09 <Jaffa> Pieplay: "secondary"?
Oct 12 16:22:54 <Jaffa> Pieplay: Assuming you don't have anything like MyMenu, ApFeMo, Catorise or ``Catorise "PLUS"'' installed; that's it but it includes all the .desktop files in /usr/share/applications/hildon as well
Oct 12 16:23:13 <Pieplay> Oh wait I figured out that the rest is alphabetic to the contents of the /usr/share/applications/hildon/ dir
Oct 12 16:23:52 <Pieplay> i'm just gonna add my launcher with program parameters there
Oct 12 18:02:15 <Pieplay> how does maemo look for app icons
Oct 12 18:10:21 * timeless thinks that's covered on the wiki
Oct 12 18:11:17 <DocScrutinizer> is it?
Oct 12 19:18:22 <foo`> ?
Oct 12 19:18:28 <foo`> exit
Oct 12 19:39:27 <Zer0cool> hello peeps 
Oct 12 20:11:00 <luke-jr> is it at all viable to do SIP over 2G?
Oct 12 20:11:09 <luke-jr> T-Mobile's pissed me off for the last time
Oct 12 20:11:51 <SpeedEvil> luke-jr not really
Oct 12 20:12:03 <SpeedEvil> 2G generally has a ping of ~1s +
Oct 12 20:12:12 <SpeedEvil> And 64kbits bandwidth tops
Oct 12 20:12:16 <SpeedEvil> (unless it's 2.5)
Oct 12 20:13:21 <crashanddie> that is, when the bloody operator doesn't block all ICMP
Oct 12 20:13:43 <luke-jr> ew :/
Oct 12 20:14:03 <crashanddie> (Which, by the way, is horrible when you try to connect to a server that doesn't exist, or when the connection is refused or anything)
Oct 12 20:14:04 <luke-jr> so I'm screwed with getting new T-Mobile service?
Oct 12 20:14:09 <luke-jr> those jerks just deactivated mine again
Oct 12 20:14:42 <crashanddie> Oh, and by the way, did you guys know that TCP/IP TTL is actually measured in seconds?
Oct 12 20:15:27 <luke-jr> ugh
Oct 12 20:15:37 <luke-jr> AT&T idiots don't have data plans with SIM cards
Oct 12 20:15:38 <crashanddie> i.e.: if an IP datagram arrives on a router with a TTL of 100, and remains in buffers for 3 seconds, when it leaves it's supposed to have a TTL of 97 (or 96, depending on what manufacturer you're talking to).
Oct 12 20:16:03 <crashanddie> I had always been taught that TTL was just the number of hops.
Oct 12 20:16:28 <luke-jr> why would it remain in the buffer at all?
Oct 12 20:16:33 <crashanddie> And was quite flabbergasted when I heard about it
Oct 12 20:16:40 <crashanddie> luke-jr, saturated network card?
Oct 12 20:17:16 <luke-jr> crashanddie: so if my pings are always under 1 second, why does TTL decrement at all? ;)
Oct 12 20:17:46 <luke-jr> AT&T can't tell me if they support IPv6
Oct 12 20:17:48 <luke-jr> n00bs
Oct 12 20:17:55 <crashanddie> because your device isn't aware of TTL, unless it expires.
Oct 12 20:21:17 <kirma> crashanddie: yes, it's technically measured in seconds according to original RFC. I think that requirement was dropped on another RFC long ago, and nowadays it's rather "a router-role device should decrement TTL by at least 1" ... basically
Oct 12 20:21:40 <crashanddie> kirma, that's what I thought as well, but it's not.
Oct 12 20:22:14 <kirma> only required functionality of TTL anyway has always been that packets don't loop through active routing
Oct 12 20:22:29 <crashanddie> indeed
Oct 12 20:22:41 <kirma> nothing really relies on second-based decrements
Oct 12 20:23:19 <crashanddie> rely on it, indeed (not many applications "rely" on IP TTL anyway), but still act accordingly
Oct 12 20:23:38 <crashanddie> (we tried it on a cisco gateway, and a number of audiocodes that we can program)
Oct 12 20:23:44 <kirma> it's thankful that there are no drastic dependencies, since with some more hairy network traffic, not being able to decrement more than one would also open... issues
Oct 12 20:24:01 <crashanddie> eh?
Oct 12 20:24:09 <crashanddie> "not being able to decrement more than one"?
Oct 12 20:25:39 <kirma> unfortunately biggest use beyond traceroute that TTL provides is really interesting abuse of middlebox - host distinction for IP stacks
Oct 12 20:26:14 <crashanddie> you mean that every OS defaults to a different TTL number?
Oct 12 20:27:32 <kirma> I mean that middleboxes can't typically make assumptions of hops from them to target stack, and in specific scenarios, this can cause middleboxes to interpret traffic differently from target host stacks (which potentially see no packet at all)
Oct 12 20:28:20 <crashanddie> I'm not a network guy, so you completely lost me on that one :)
Oct 12 20:30:38 <kirma> let's say that TCP and IP protocol design decisions alone, and especially augmented with design decisions of various vendors can make "unorthodox" TCP/IP traffic be seen in very strange ways on middleboxes
Oct 12 20:31:00 <luke-jr> how about another approach?
Oct 12 20:31:09 <luke-jr> is it possible to bypass "SIM Card Registration Failed"?
Oct 12 20:31:19 <luke-jr> maybe with the open source drivers?
Oct 12 20:31:36 <kirma> not really anything new, known for at least a decade, but it amazes how hopeless many middlebox (especially non-firewalls) still are
Oct 12 20:33:32 <kirma> but then again: what can you do if you have no certain knowledge of number of hops to a target host,
Oct 12 20:34:45 <kirma> I'd call IP TTL in combination with some other IP features a design error, but I'm not surprised it wasn't thought out to the end like over three decades ago
Oct 12 21:21:19 <luke-jr> how about Simple Mobile?
**** ENDING LOGGING AT Thu Oct 13 02:59:57 2011