**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Sat Nov 12 02:59:56 2011
Nov 12 03:00:11 <Macer> backupmenu wasn't worth anything
Nov 12 03:00:15 <Macer> i wound up having to reflash
Nov 12 03:00:40 <medicalwei> Anyone using irreco or qtirreco or something in between?
Nov 12 06:39:20 <slonopotamus> hmm... i'm sure there was firefox mobile for n900. it's gone?
Nov 12 07:28:55 <Sicelo> i think it's still there. slow afaik. u can check logs for the link. it's not in maemo repos
Nov 12 07:32:56 <tramp> you have to add the mozilla repo
Nov 12 07:37:39 <tramp> FF for N900: http://www.mozilla.org/en-US/m
Nov 12 07:38:32 <tramp> FF for N900: firefox.com/m
Nov 12 07:39:23 <tramp> What is the best way to find and talk to someone without seeming to stalkerish?
Nov 12 07:54:26 <Macer> ok
Nov 12 07:54:42 <Macer> i remember seeing the picasa sharing plugin having an option to choose which album you put the photos in
Nov 12 07:54:53 <Macer> where did that go ? is that just a cssu only feature or something?
Nov 12 07:56:32 <Macer> to find and talk to someone without seeming too stalkerish? use irc :-P
Nov 12 07:56:51 <Macer> lol
Nov 12 07:57:18 <Macer> damnit. i need to fix this picasa sharing
Nov 12 07:57:21 <Macer> it was working so nicely too
Nov 12 07:57:34 <Macer> i think power kernel and fmtx do not play well together
Nov 12 08:05:34 <Macer> nm. i fixed the picasa thing. guess i had testing and not devel at the time
Nov 12 09:46:53 <lamah> meego is the next name of maemo?
Nov 12 09:49:47 <psycho_oreos> no
Nov 12 09:51:44 <lamah> what is a meego
Nov 12 09:51:47 <lamah> diff os?
Nov 12 09:52:01 <soltys> meego is meego ;)
Nov 12 09:52:39 <lamah> ok
Nov 12 09:52:40 <lamah> :")
Nov 12 09:53:05 <lamah> n950, n9 are maemo based?
Nov 12 09:54:15 <psycho_oreos> they're in between its dubbed as meego but it still runs maemo package management
Nov 12 09:54:28 <psycho_oreos> hence codenamed harmattan
Nov 12 09:56:32 <lamah> only? n900 is maemo based?
Nov 12 09:56:59 <SpeedEvil> Harmattan is to Fremantle what supermodels are to carthorses.
Nov 12 09:57:35 <Termana> lamah, The N900 runs Maemo by default, yes.
Nov 12 09:57:57 <lamah> Termana: there is no new models that runs maemo?
Nov 12 09:58:23 <psycho_oreos> N9 technically runs maemo.. with different UI known as `swype' and plagued with aegis
Nov 12 09:58:36 <lamah> hmm
Nov 12 09:59:36 <psycho_oreos> a proper meego device should be using rpm packages, neither does N950 nor N9 uses rpm packages so it basically does not conform to meego standards
Nov 12 09:59:52 <psycho_oreos> its what little researching can do for you :þ
Nov 12 10:01:09 <lamah> rpm.. blh, yes...  thanks:))
Nov 12 10:02:44 <lamah> psycho_oreos: http://pwnieexpress.com/pwn_phone.html this is n900 based on Maemo i am searching for similar but something new.. But this is the only one option, n900
Nov 12 10:04:01 <psycho_oreos> lamah, there is no new proper maemo based anymore. nokia axed maemo ages ago if you haven't heard the news. They won't even care about harmattan either (which they deliberately dubbed as meego device)
Nov 12 10:05:13 <psycho_oreos> in fact nokia only just recently released a security OTA update for fremantle which only fixes that digi* cert flaw
Nov 12 10:05:15 <lamah> psycho_oreos: yes this is the true and old n810 or whatever...
Nov 12 10:05:46 <lamah> hmm interesting
Nov 12 10:06:11 <psycho_oreos> lamah, afaik if they axed maemo, it doesn't matter if you have 770, N800, N810, N810 WiMax edition or even N900. The bottom line is that manufacturer no longer cares that much about maemo
Nov 12 10:06:40 <ZogG_N9> B-) 
Nov 12 10:06:54 <lamah> yeah
Nov 12 10:07:00 <psycho_oreos> you can put it in whatever ugly phrases you like, N900 joins the rest of the maemo devices which are literally being disowned by nokia. period
Nov 12 10:08:19 <ZogG_N9> psycho_oreos, and your point its?
Nov 12 10:09:15 <psycho_oreos> ZogG_N9, point is to try and to somehow make it easy for this other person to see what is the news. Who knows what he's being doing all this time :)
Nov 12 10:09:37 <psycho_oreos> old news but hey, looks like someone didn't bother to notice it
Nov 12 10:09:52 <ZogG_N9> pop
Nov 12 10:10:17 <ZogG_N9> damn swype sent it
Nov 12 10:10:42 <lamah> ZogG_N9: no, he means is this try by nokia is not very successeful in market line
Nov 12 10:11:09 <ZogG_N9> agreed
Nov 12 10:11:24 <ZogG_N9> but who cares
Nov 12 10:12:09 <ZogG_N9> its not about that, thats about money and it is more politics than be popular =)
Nov 12 10:12:13 <psycho_oreos> yeah for a thick headed cave dweller who didn't realise nokia is now microsoft's slut. Wise choice for him to leave too on that parting note
Nov 12 10:13:09 <ZogG_N9> psycho_oreos, i disagree
Nov 12 10:13:24 <psycho_oreos> ZogG_N9, care to elaborate?
Nov 12 10:13:36 <ZogG_N9> as most companie's politics shitty
Nov 12 10:14:17 <ZogG_N9> sony is a bitch, but i still prefer ps3 over xbox
Nov 12 10:14:58 <psycho_oreos> ZogG_N9, I'm not concerned about internal political games. In fact I never will unless I have shares in that company. If the company is nokia I would have long ago withdrew my money when Flop came about. The bottom line is that I'm an outsider and that's all I care about. Facts are facts, its not like you simply cannot deny it when you saw it in action
Nov 12 10:15:09 <ZogG_N9> and there is no more linux officially, they've been hacked, no respect to us, but i still buy them
Nov 12 10:15:49 <psycho_oreos> yeah flawed logic thinking.. that statement is full of holes
Nov 12 10:16:07 <ZogG_N9> i see, i know and understand
Nov 12 10:16:09 <psycho_oreos> linux is just a kernel, if its hacked its the core kernel.. but so what? it gets patched
Nov 12 10:16:45 <psycho_oreos> How is linux no respect to you? linux is just a kernel, it doesn't like or dislike people. This isn't facebook.
Nov 12 10:16:53 <ZogG_N9> but not whinning about it, as i can do nothing and its always my chooise what phone to buy
Nov 12 10:17:19 <psycho_oreos> of course, nobody can place any influence on you
Nov 12 10:17:23 <psycho_oreos> or any one of us :P
Nov 12 10:17:54 <ZogG_N9> psycho_oreos, i was talking about ps3 than
Nov 12 10:18:38 <psycho_oreos> ZogG_N9, and that would contradict your last statement about your phone. PS3 isn't a phone :)
Nov 12 10:19:05 <ZogG> psycho_oreos, `it doesn't matter phone or not
Nov 12 10:19:21 <ZogG> there are always few companies
Nov 12 10:19:29 <ZogG> and few of them are better than others
Nov 12 10:19:50 <ZogG> and you choose one you like and buy the phone
Nov 12 10:20:02 <psycho_oreos> ZogG, and I still fail to see how is discussion about sory related to maemo at all. Sure you can hack it to run linux but that's got nothing to do with maemo
Nov 12 10:20:25 <ZogG> but they see things different sometimes but as YUO choosed them, they still don't OWAN you to go now the way you want
Nov 12 10:21:16 <aholler> the future of linux on smartphone seems to be what motorola starts with atrix.
Nov 12 10:21:58 <ZogG> it's not about linux
Nov 12 10:22:08 <psycho_oreos> of course, nobody had to force nokia not to recruit Flop. AGAIN that is not my point. I'm not mocking over their chosen person but rather their CURRENT stance.
Nov 12 10:22:44 <jonwil> I still think the N900 is the best cellphone ever made.
Nov 12 10:23:03 <jonwil> and I will keep using mine as long as it can continue to make phonecalls
Nov 12 10:23:44 <psycho_oreos> N900 isn't a phone, but many joe blo assumes just because N900 has phone functionality its been rationalised as a smartphone despite its usual lacking features of what a smartphone is meant to be.
Nov 12 10:23:57 <SpeedEvil> I'd say the nokia 3310 is arguably better.
Nov 12 10:23:58 <jonwil> what features is it missing?
Nov 12 10:24:25 <SpeedEvil> I can sit on it, and get up because it hurts my arse, not because I've worried that I've shattered it.
Nov 12 10:25:08 <psycho_oreos> no MMS support natively (FMMS does not count), portrait mode for almost everywhere (CSSU/MHD does not count, nor does any other hacks), etc
Nov 12 10:26:31 <jonwil> I dont care about MMS or portrait mode
Nov 12 10:27:03 <jonwil> I like the N900 because it does all things I need in a cellphone
Nov 12 10:27:22 <psycho_oreos> So if other smartphones has it, they're not called smartphones but smartphones with MMS and portrait mode? :)
Nov 12 10:27:52 <jonwil> original iPhone didnt have MMS
Nov 12 10:27:54 <psycho_oreos> I like N900 because it has a proper linux environment with a portion of phone's functionality
Nov 12 10:28:00 <jonwil> and no-one would deny that's a phone
Nov 12 10:28:23 <psycho_oreos> but iPhone has the words phone written in it :)
Nov 12 10:28:41 <psycho_oreos> yet it still does native portrait mode
Nov 12 10:29:11 <jonwil> its all semantics IMO, what matters is not what its labeled, its whether it has the features you need
Nov 12 10:31:56 <psycho_oreos> Unfortunately the reality is different, most smartphones seem to have common traits. Sure its not like you don't use it and therefore its not something that it can't be counted as one. Contrary to that the missing functionality is weird to not have it is it not?
Nov 12 10:32:44 <jonwil> I like the N900 because its the closest thing yet invented to a linux system in your pocket\
Nov 12 10:32:57 <jonwil> that also does SMS, calls and 3G data
Nov 12 10:33:03 <psycho_oreos> and you could really go into discussing about that modded N810 that could almost function as a smartphone. Surely that N810 cannot be called a smartphone now that it has a SIM slot? :)
Nov 12 10:33:43 <jonwil> no the N810 wont count because the hardware was added later. Just like you cant call a laptop a "mobile device" just because you use a 3G USB dongle with it
Nov 12 10:34:14 <LaoLang_cool> which app do you use to show picture?
Nov 12 10:34:23 <Jartza> laptop is mobile device even without 3G dongle :)
Nov 12 10:34:24 <psycho_oreos> Hardware or software are all relatively identical meanings to me.
Nov 12 10:34:38 <jonwil> in any case I intend to spend some tonight continuing my work on the N900 virtual keyboard stuff
Nov 12 10:34:42 <LaoLang_cool> built-in file manager can't show the pic in original size right?
Nov 12 10:35:06 <Jartza> "mobile device" does not have to have a connectivity
Nov 12 10:36:30 <psycho_oreos> LaoLang_cool, the point is why would you want to? If you have a really huge photo (like 4000x4000 pixels) which obviously N900 cannot show it all in that small screen, you must still have it all viewed somehow?
Nov 12 10:37:21 <LaoLang_cool> psycho_oreos: I can drag the mouse to show parts of pic, but if the pic resized to fit screen, I can't see the details because it's so small
Nov 12 10:37:36 <LaoLang_cool> Then the pic is no useable at all
Nov 12 10:38:00 <psycho_oreos> LaoLang_cool, then you should be looking at image/photo editors. There's a few around such as mypaint for instance
Nov 12 10:38:34 <LaoLang_cool> psycho_oreos: thanks for recommended, I will take a look
Nov 12 12:55:19 <ZogG> ruskie is dead? =)
Nov 12 13:28:29 * DocScrutinizer reads backscroll and frowns
Nov 12 13:29:14 <psycho_oreos> :o
Nov 12 13:29:15 <jonwil> what, the argument over whether an N900 is a phone or not?
Nov 12 13:30:16 <DocScrutinizer> esp ZogG 's last post
Nov 12 13:30:34 <ZogG> DocScrutinizer, hey baby
Nov 12 13:31:13 <DocScrutinizer> and about "modified N810"
Nov 12 13:31:38 <bash`> hi all
Nov 12 13:31:40 <DocScrutinizer> blue_led did an incredible job on modding an N810
Nov 12 13:31:59 <ZogG> DocScrutinizer N810-BL?
Nov 12 13:32:04 <SpeedEvil> The first maemo phone.
Nov 12 13:32:39 <bash`> I'm getting a very strange behavior with my N900: if I don't use it for 2-3 minutes, and there're no applications running...it shutdown!
Nov 12 13:32:59 <ZogG> it's bored
Nov 12 13:33:03 <bash`> :)
Nov 12 13:33:06 <psycho_oreos> bash`, running out of power? some program you installed is buggy?
Nov 12 13:33:08 <ZogG> dmesg?
Nov 12 13:33:10 <bash`> really, any idea about?
Nov 12 13:33:23 <ZogG> what does dmesg says
Nov 12 13:33:27 <norayr> SpeedEvil: not the phone, not the first :P
Nov 12 13:33:29 <bash`> psycho_oreos: I reflashed it and it still shutdown
Nov 12 13:33:35 <DocScrutinizer> bash`: any special lockscreen installed?
Nov 12 13:33:44 <bash`> no, but I'm using the SSU
Nov 12 13:33:55 <ZogG> CSSU you mean/
Nov 12 13:34:05 <bash`> yes :)
Nov 12 13:35:23 <kerio> is there a way to flash fiasco+combined from meego?
Nov 12 13:35:26 <DocScrutinizer> bash`: It sounds like a random error report
Nov 12 13:35:46 <bash`> yes unfortunately 
Nov 12 13:36:17 <bash`> could be a battery fault?
Nov 12 13:36:25 <bash`> (battery is the original one)
Nov 12 13:36:36 <DocScrutinizer> wouldn't explain why it only shuts down when not in iuse
Nov 12 13:36:43 <psycho_oreos> dmesg would be very useful imo
Nov 12 13:36:49 <DocScrutinizer> yes
Nov 12 13:36:53 <bash`> psycho_oreos: ok, I'm nopasting it
Nov 12 13:36:55 <bash`> pls wait
Nov 12 13:36:58 <DocScrutinizer> not dmesg but syslog
Nov 12 13:37:18 <bash`> I guess I don't have syslog installed
Nov 12 13:38:06 <bash`> installing syslog, then I close all my windows and we wait it to shutdown :)
Nov 12 13:38:18 <DocScrutinizer> ok
Nov 12 13:40:45 * DocScrutinizer goes preparing some coffee, so maybe the day looks a bit brighter then
Nov 12 13:41:05 <DocScrutinizer> ~lart ZogG 
Nov 12 13:41:05 * infobot moos at ZogG
Nov 12 13:41:15 <ZogG> =)
Nov 12 13:42:04 * ZogG prepares popcorn
Nov 12 13:42:12 <DocScrutinizer> I really hate reading "XY is dead?" first thing after I resumed
Nov 12 13:42:31 <HaXeri> my n900 camera seems odd
Nov 12 13:42:50 <HaXeri> cant start any camera-related application for ex. flashlight
Nov 12 13:42:52 <SpeedEvil> In what way?
Nov 12 13:43:10 <SpeedEvil> Does it make everyone look like Justin Bieber?
Nov 12 13:43:15 <HaXeri> tells me that camera is already being used by some other program
Nov 12 13:43:41 <HaXeri> i killed one camera-ui proccess wich i saw in top but no effect
Nov 12 13:44:08 <SpeedEvil> There should be a camera-ui process
Nov 12 13:44:17 <SpeedEvil> Have you playerd with flashlight app?
Nov 12 13:44:24 <HaXeri> no
Nov 12 13:44:43 <HaXeri> but it has worked before
Nov 12 13:45:33 <HaXeri> I've lately installed enchanged linux kernel for power users and I dont remember if successfully used camera after installing it
Nov 12 13:45:50 <MohammadAG> however high you are
Nov 12 13:45:58 <MohammadAG> or however low life gets you
Nov 12 13:46:09 <MohammadAG> or if the iPhone is the last mobile ever
Nov 12 13:46:12 <MohammadAG> Don't fucking get one
Nov 12 13:46:30 <psycho_oreos> epic +1
Nov 12 13:46:31 <DocScrutinizer> MohammadAG: :-D
Nov 12 13:46:38 <DocScrutinizer> made my day
Nov 12 13:47:12 <MohammadAG> I woke up to a dead phone
Nov 12 13:47:25 <DocScrutinizer> HaXeri: uninstall and reinstall all camera apps
Nov 12 13:47:27 <MohammadAG> I went to take a shower, locked the phone, got out of the shower, dead phone
Nov 12 13:47:52 <MohammadAG> the OS is locked down, you can't debug shit
Nov 12 13:48:01 <MohammadAG> installed sysklogd on it, let's see what happens next
Nov 12 13:48:01 <HaXeri> DocScrutinizer: okay, can I reinstall the original camera app too?
Nov 12 13:48:12 <woldrich> debugging shit... hm
Nov 12 13:48:27 <MohammadAG> cause shit has bugs sometimes
Nov 12 13:48:54 <DocScrutinizer> HaXeri: no need, just all fcam, bessn900 and what not else
Nov 12 13:48:58 <woldrich> your shit, perhaps. not mine.
Nov 12 13:49:18 <DocScrutinizer> HaXeri: it's the drivers that come with those "better cams" that don't match your kernel
Nov 12 13:49:42 <psycho_oreos> MohammadAG, the other day one of me workmate wanted to send this hand drawn tattoo image from his iPhone via bluetooth. Guess what? he couldn't. I tried pairing with him, even tried sending some random pre-recorded voice and it all fails. Apple's DRM at its finest
Nov 12 13:50:22 <HaXeri> okay, I already removed my fcam
Nov 12 13:50:34 <HaXeri> so installing it again will take a effect
Nov 12 13:51:51 <DocScrutinizer> MohammadAG: ^^^
Nov 12 13:52:01 <DocScrutinizer> cam drivers renewal?
Nov 12 13:54:08 <DocScrutinizer> HaXeri: though - honestly - it's a very well known problem of power kernel and dealt with in the FAQ, probably top in FAQ
Nov 12 13:57:50 <MohammadAG> psycho_oreos, you need to JB it
Nov 12 13:57:59 <MohammadAG> but apple's locking down all methods to that
Nov 12 13:58:23 <DocScrutinizer> JB?
Nov 12 13:58:33 <psycho_oreos> jailbreak
Nov 12 13:58:34 <kerio> jailbreak
Nov 12 13:58:36 <kerio> dammit
Nov 12 13:58:44 <MohammadAG> psycho_oreos wins the round
Nov 12 13:58:52 <MohammadAG> kerio eliminated
Nov 12 13:58:56 <kerio> something something relativity something something
Nov 12 13:59:08 <AlmightyOatmeal> does anyone know where i may be able to find a replacement screen and possibly digitizer for a nokia n810 except for ebay?
Nov 12 13:59:18 <psycho_oreos> MohammadAG, I know, I told him that before and he has done it once but he finds its better to stick to stock config
Nov 12 13:59:33 * DocScrutinizer is winner cos not knowing useless BS bout fruitphone
Nov 12 13:59:41 <MohammadAG> psycho_oreos, tbh, the iPhone's a toy without a JB
Nov 12 14:00:11 <psycho_oreos> MohammadAG, a feeble one at that to be frank :)
Nov 12 14:00:12 <AlmightyOatmeal> DocScrutinizer: you're a winner because your mamma said so ;)
Nov 12 14:00:15 * AlmightyOatmeal giggles then hides
Nov 12 14:00:17 <psycho_oreos> lol
Nov 12 14:00:30 * psycho_oreos watches DocScrutinizer flares up :o
Nov 12 14:00:58 * MohammadAG sshs into iPhone
Nov 12 14:01:32 <MohammadAG> oh right, no tools like top/ps :/
Nov 12 14:01:42 * AlmightyOatmeal wishes he could ssh into his other nokia n810, well, he could, but the display is still broken and reduces the portability aspect
Nov 12 14:02:04 <kerio> MohammadAG: tbh, an Android phone is a toy without a rooting
Nov 12 14:02:30 <kerio> AlmightyOatmeal: cheap homeserver with internal UPS gogogo
Nov 12 14:02:38 <kerio> well, "cheap"
Nov 12 14:03:28 <MohammadAG> oh ffs
Nov 12 14:03:28 <AlmightyOatmeal> kerio: lmao, what can i possibly do with a 400mhz mips cpu on my home network?
Nov 12 14:03:34 <MohammadAG> no /var/log/syslog
Nov 12 14:03:36 <AlmightyOatmeal> that's not even fast enough to dispense toilet paper
Nov 12 14:03:38 <AlmightyOatmeal> :P
Nov 12 14:03:47 <kerio> AlmightyOatmeal: bittorrent *all* the things! _o/
Nov 12 14:03:54 <MohammadAG> AlmightyOatmeal, given you're having diarrheoa, yes
Nov 12 14:04:17 <AlmightyOatmeal> kerio: torrent what things? that's what i have a laptop and a server for :P
Nov 12 14:04:28 <kerio> oh, you already have a server
Nov 12 14:04:37 <AlmightyOatmeal> torrent off the nokia n810, lol, store all the goodies on a microsd card? silly pants :)
Nov 12 14:04:57 <hiemanshu> MohammadAG: you can install those
Nov 12 14:05:11 <kerio> AlmightyOatmeal: doesn't the n810 have a usb port?
Nov 12 14:05:14 <MohammadAG> hiemanshu, I installed syslogd, no syslog file
Nov 12 14:05:20 <AlmightyOatmeal> kerio: not the best server in the world, 64 bit celeron with 2T storage array
Nov 12 14:05:24 <MohammadAG> and the syslogd is just an /etc/syslog.conf file
Nov 12 14:05:30 <kerio> boo hoo
Nov 12 14:05:36 <hiemanshu> MohammadAG: there is htop, gcc, etc, in cydia, look for them :P
Nov 12 14:05:39 <kerio> my server is a sheevaplug with a 1tb usb hd
Nov 12 14:05:52 <AlmightyOatmeal> kerio: yes it does have a usb port.. what i used my other n810 for was a gps, web browser, and ebook reader.. hard to do all of the above with a cracked display :P
Nov 12 14:06:05 <AlmightyOatmeal> kerio: ha
Nov 12 14:06:14 <AlmightyOatmeal> your server sound adorable ^.^
Nov 12 14:06:42 <MohammadAG> hiemanshu, no htop :p
Nov 12 14:06:45 <kerio> it is ^.^
Nov 12 14:06:56 <DocScrutinizer> /mkick
Nov 12 14:06:56 <AlmightyOatmeal> hehe
Nov 12 14:07:03 <kerio> it also requires... about no power
Nov 12 14:07:13 <MohammadAG> /kick DocScrutinizer gives the same effect :P
Nov 12 14:07:13 <hiemanshu> MohammadAG: interesting I had htop on mine
Nov 12 14:07:25 * AlmightyOatmeal pets DocScrutinizer 
Nov 12 14:07:28 <hiemanshu> I know there is top, and htop and other stuff
Nov 12 14:07:52 <MohammadAG> some results for top
Nov 12 14:08:01 <MohammadAG> Topless Babe Pink Panties theme
Nov 12 14:08:05 <AlmightyOatmeal> kerio: true.. but i'm sure the IOPS of my server would probably be higher.. 
Nov 12 14:08:26 <kerio> AlmightyOatmeal: sure, but i only have a 20/1 connection anyway
Nov 12 14:08:31 <AlmightyOatmeal> i've been wanthing to switch to a nice dual xeon, that thing would draw a nice amount of power 
Nov 12 14:08:38 <kerio> yeah, but what for?
Nov 12 14:09:08 <AlmightyOatmeal> kerio: my fileserver is also a development box and hashtable generator
Nov 12 14:09:36 <kerio> my fileserver also downloads movies and videogames
Nov 12 14:09:37 <AlmightyOatmeal> i figure when i'm not watching the matrix trilogy in hd or harry potter, i might as well use the spare cpu cycles
Nov 12 14:09:37 <kerio> i win
Nov 12 14:10:17 <AlmightyOatmeal> hehe, i use my gf's laptop for that, i've been planning on moving everything over to a headless deluge configuration on a dedicated interface, but the problem is, i have no hdd space left on it
Nov 12 14:10:38 <AlmightyOatmeal> my array has been overflowing for the past 6 months and i've been cycling old data off it :'(
Nov 12 14:11:11 <kerio> buy more hard disks dude
Nov 12 14:11:19 <kerio> deleting stuff is for wimps
Nov 12 14:11:33 <AlmightyOatmeal> heh, if i could i would. i'm a digital hoarder without hdd space
Nov 12 14:11:49 <DocScrutinizer> yeah, the tough guys don't find stuff in their petabyte of random shit
Nov 12 14:12:28 <AlmightyOatmeal> that's what the locate database is for ;)
Nov 12 14:12:29 <kerio> mamedev don't care about your hard disk space
Nov 12 14:12:30 <psycho_oreos> at least you could surprise people with the amount of storage you have in your boxen
Nov 12 14:12:32 <DocScrutinizer> but they all swear no matter what it is they got it *somewhere*
Nov 12 14:12:34 <kerio> mamedev don't give a fuck
Nov 12 14:13:46 <kerio> DocScrutinizer: the latest TOSEC takes 3.12 TB
Nov 12 14:13:56 <DocScrutinizer> you'd surprise mo only with a hexdump on paper of *all* the stuff you heard
Nov 12 14:14:11 <DocScrutinizer> s/mo/me/
Nov 12 14:14:12 <infobot> DocScrutinizer meant: you'd surprise me only with a hexdump on paper of *all* the stuff you heard
Nov 12 14:14:48 <kerio> DocScrutinizer: mame 0.143 takes 253gb
Nov 12 14:15:00 * DocScrutinizer watches load of wolfram alpha hit the roof
Nov 12 14:16:01 <DocScrutinizer> what's all that shit? rainbow tables?
Nov 12 14:16:28 <kerio> DocScrutinizer: TOSEC is pretty much every game ever released for every console ever
Nov 12 14:16:37 <DocScrutinizer> LOL
Nov 12 14:16:51 <DocScrutinizer> so also a rainbow table XP
Nov 12 14:17:10 <kerio> huh, not only games apparently
Nov 12 14:17:28 <kerio> there's zx spectrum applications
Nov 12 14:18:26 <DocScrutinizer> who by the love of god was so insane to download 3TB of data for *anything*?
Nov 12 14:18:47 <kerio> often you just grab the parts you want
Nov 12 14:18:53 <kerio> i only have the full mame romset
Nov 12 14:18:56 * AlmightyOatmeal grabs kerio 
Nov 12 14:18:58 <DocScrutinizer> just to find that space invaders for zx spectrum doesn't work as it's a fake
Nov 12 14:19:08 <kerio> DocScrutinizer: stop spreading FUD please
Nov 12 14:19:22 <kerio> TOSEC doesn't even give you download links
Nov 12 14:19:26 <kerio> it's just a massive database
Nov 12 14:19:41 <DocScrutinizer> kerio: stop loading my network with nonsense shit please
Nov 12 14:20:08 * DocScrutinizer re-positions some geostationary x-ray lasers
Nov 12 14:20:12 <kerio> DocScrutinizer: http://www.tosecdev.org/
Nov 12 14:21:52 * DocScrutinizer traceroutes kerio and drops the national network there for 5 min
Nov 12 14:22:10 <kerio> DocScrutinizer: why u mad tho
Nov 12 14:22:20 <kerio> moving bits around is what the internet is about!
Nov 12 14:22:20 * DocScrutinizer is skynet
Nov 12 14:22:28 * AlmightyOatmeal jacks into the matrix
Nov 12 14:22:48 <kerio> DocScrutinizer: what should we use the internet for?
Nov 12 14:22:50 <kerio> *more* cat pictures?
Nov 12 14:23:07 <AlmightyOatmeal> of course not
Nov 12 14:23:15 <DocScrutinizer> yeah, I *love* cat pictures
Nov 12 14:23:15 <AlmightyOatmeal> the internet is for 241543903 (google images that)
Nov 12 14:24:23 <DocScrutinizer> http://share.ovi.com/media/joerg900.pennystore/joerg900.10129  MOAR KITTEN PICS
Nov 12 14:27:26 * jonwil thinks doing research on the N900 virtual keyboard is a valid use of the internet :P
Nov 12 14:28:18 <DocScrutinizer> OT fun stuff factoid: it *seems* suspend-to-disk fails epically on linux when your used RAM is larger than your _free_ swap space
Nov 12 14:28:48 <merlin1991> hm what does it whithout swap?
Nov 12 14:29:08 <DocScrutinizer> freeze
Nov 12 14:29:22 <SpeedEvil> It suspends to swap typically.
Nov 12 14:29:25 <SpeedEvil> hence...
Nov 12 14:29:32 <kerio> so the suspension fails with an OOM?
Nov 12 14:29:38 <DocScrutinizer> kinda
Nov 12 14:29:39 <kerio> *OOM error
Nov 12 14:29:43 <DocScrutinizer> it simply stalls
Nov 12 14:29:51 <kerio> couldn't it kill shit?
Nov 12 14:29:53 <norayr> MohammadAG: toggle camera application just disables the camera-ui application and daemon, right? it does not unload camera drivers so other applications, such an FCamera will continue to work.
Nov 12 14:30:08 <DocScrutinizer> it *could* but doesn't - at least here
Nov 12 14:30:33 <ShadowJK> it probably never reaches oom situation, things slow down too much before that
Nov 12 14:30:50 <DocScrutinizer> yeah
Nov 12 14:31:19 <DocScrutinizer> even then it probably would kill the swap-suspender first
Nov 12 14:31:38 <DocScrutinizer> as that's the only not-stopped process basically, at that time
Nov 12 14:32:16 <DocScrutinizer> and I've seen that happening some times
Nov 12 14:32:27 <DocScrutinizer> not last time I tried suspend to disk though
Nov 12 14:34:18 <DocScrutinizer> norayr: yes
Nov 12 14:35:19 <norayr> thanks
Nov 12 14:35:54 <DocScrutinizer> norayr: the drivers are shared between *all* cam/video apps - that's why all cam related apps break when you update kernel
Nov 12 14:36:09 <DocScrutinizer> drivers never get unloaded AFAIK
Nov 12 14:36:49 <DocScrutinizer> norayr: see backscroll some 60 min, we had that topic recently
Nov 12 14:39:15 <DocScrutinizer> (though I have to confess I never wrapped my head around it why updating (to) PK doesn't install the right camera kernel modules right away, and how T F fcam et all "install" kernel drivers, and even the right ones for the kernel you are using)
Nov 12 14:40:22 <DocScrutinizer> it feels kinda insane to ship a kernel module in a userland package called e.g fcam
Nov 12 14:42:18 <DocScrutinizer> well, who knows with what a crap I would've come up when hostmode patches could have gone to *.ko rather than the core kernel
Nov 12 14:43:19 <DocScrutinizer> musb_hdrc being monolithic saved me from doing such botch
Nov 12 14:44:04 <DocScrutinizer> kernel module handling is a bit awkward in linux
Nov 12 14:44:40 <jonwil> bah, libhildon-im-vkbrenderer is annoying to figure out (so it can be cloned)
Nov 12 14:45:27 <DocScrutinizer> jonwil: you'll do it, according to your posts during last week :-D
Nov 12 14:45:54 <DocScrutinizer> you always bitch a lot, then come up with awesome stuff :-)
Nov 12 14:46:35 <DocScrutinizer> jonwil: btw I had same screit-moments with bme
Nov 12 14:46:45 <DocScrutinizer> screw-it-moments
Nov 12 14:50:06 <jonwil> its mostly complex because I cant find anyone who knows the first thing about GTK and can help me
Nov 12 14:50:32 <DocScrutinizer> GTK is a dieing art it seems, yeah
Nov 12 14:50:57 <DocScrutinizer> dying*
Nov 12 14:51:25 <woldrich> yes please, die
Nov 12 14:51:53 <woldrich> it doesn't matter what language you want to use, if you want to code gtk you'll have to code gtk
Nov 12 14:52:11 * DocScrutinizer summons wizards of GTK to obsess the heretics
Nov 12 14:53:01 <woldrich> also, why does EVERYTHING have to be HUGE in gtk? It really looks like shit, even compared to Windows
Nov 12 14:53:35 <DocScrutinizer> maemo was mighty with GTK, it was still great with Qt, it was unnoticable with meego
Nov 12 14:53:53 <jonwil> hmmm, I think the best answer is to document all the exported functions and classes and etc that libhildon-im-vkbrenderer uses and publish that info
Nov 12 14:54:07 <jonwil> and let some GTK guy write some code behind it to render the VKB the way they want
Nov 12 14:54:46 <DocScrutinizer> jonwil: sounds like a professional's approach
Nov 12 14:55:43 <DocScrutinizer> do things where you know you excel, outsource the rest not to waste time on thinks you are not good in or interested to learn
Nov 12 14:55:56 <DocScrutinizer> things*
Nov 12 14:59:11 <DocScrutinizer> following this approach lead to me finding "my genes" in details of maybe 30% of meamo apps though not even h-e-n has my nametag on boilerplate
Nov 12 15:03:08 <DocScrutinizer> otoh *#-ena has my boilerplate and I did *nothing* for it, except packaging and even that was mostly done by MohammadAG ;-P - well I bitched at Nokia about cmt needs the full set of GSM control codes supported and konttori listened to me :-)
Nov 12 15:16:10 <AlmightyOatmeal> does anyone here have a cisco account where they can grab me the latest firmware for a 1142N wap?
Nov 12 15:16:14 <AlmightyOatmeal> i would love them a long time
Nov 12 16:03:22 * AlmightyOatmeal is still looking for a replacement screen for a nokia n810
Nov 12 16:12:56 <neal> DocScrutinizer: Do you know the maximum throughput that the micro sd controller can handle?  I have a class 10 card.  On my think pad, I can write to it between 10-12MB/s.  On my n900, I get just 4-5 MB/s.
Nov 12 16:13:57 <DocScrutinizer> sorry, no data on that available off top of my head
Nov 12 16:14:40 <DocScrutinizer> neal: I think the clock speed negotiated with the card is a limiting factor
Nov 12 16:15:13 <neal> The depressing part is I get 5-6 MB/s using the internal flash.
Nov 12 16:15:38 <DocScrutinizer> what in turn will determine the the clock speed when controller negotiates with card is a complex topic
Nov 12 16:15:51 <neal> I can imagine
Nov 12 16:16:47 <DocScrutinizer> you probably should ask ShadowJK, as afaik he's relly knowledgable about this particular stuff
Nov 12 16:17:06 <DocScrutinizer> maybe also jacekowski 
Nov 12 16:17:19 <DocScrutinizer> and/or SpeedEvil 
Nov 12 16:17:27 <ShadowJK> I've seen far over 10megabytes/sec from the internal mmc, reads
Nov 12 16:17:46 <neal> ShadowJK: I was only considering writes.
Nov 12 16:18:01 <ShadowJK> echo 8192 > /sys/block/mmcblk0/queue/nr_requests          and mmcblk1 speeds up things a bit for me
Nov 12 16:20:04 * DocScrutinizer idly ponders if it was a nice concept and what it would need to make " echo 8192 > /sys/block/mmcblk*/queue/nr_requests" syntax work
Nov 12 16:22:05 <DocScrutinizer> neal: generally on write to MMC there are other bottlenecks than exactly the controller that limit the throughput
Nov 12 16:22:17 <DocScrutinizer> buzzword page erase
Nov 12 16:23:12 <neal> DocScrutinizer: I think the bottle neck is the N900
Nov 12 16:23:27 <neal> DocScrutinizer: On my thinkpad I get about twice the write throughput
Nov 12 16:24:12 <DocScrutinizer> it basically boild down to the fact that writes to mmc can vary in time they take by a factor of 10^4 to 10^6 (estimated), depending on things like sequence of particular writes etc
Nov 12 16:25:28 <DocScrutinizer> so it's not the hw that limits the write bandwidth, it's basically entirely related to io scheduler and the logic used therein
Nov 12 16:26:30 <DocScrutinizer> and how well that logic matches your particular usecase as well as the actualy hw found *inside* the MMC
Nov 12 16:27:41 <neal> I'm not sure what you are telling me answers my question.
Nov 12 16:28:06 <neal> Use the same benchmark, I get different performance when the card is in my n900 and in my thinkpad
Nov 12 16:28:19 <DocScrutinizer> a page erase can take in the range of dozens of ms, and it makes a hell of a difference if it has to be done for each byte written, or once every 256kB
Nov 12 16:28:47 <neal> my block size was 1 MB
Nov 12 16:29:15 <DocScrutinizer> neal: you're maybe using the same benchmark, but are you using the same MMC kernel driver? Same IO scheduler?
Nov 12 16:29:38 <mgedmin> Philip Langdale was blogging interesting posts about MMC write performance on Maemo
Nov 12 16:29:53 <DocScrutinizer> same parameters of  /sys/block/mmcblk*/*/*
Nov 12 16:29:54 <DocScrutinizer> ?
Nov 12 16:30:10 <mgedmin> but that was in Maemo 4 times: http://intr.overt.org/5.2008.43-mmc-kernel/README
Nov 12 16:30:29 <DocScrutinizer> mgedmin: :-D thanks mate
Nov 12 16:31:26 <neal> interesting
Nov 12 16:31:33 <neal> I wonder if the power kernel has integrated similar changes
Nov 12 16:31:52 <mgedmin> the blog is here: http://intr.overt.org/blog/?cat=4&paged=2
Nov 12 16:33:06 <Juozapas>  /j archlinux 
Nov 12 16:33:10 <Juozapas> sorry
Nov 12 16:33:25 <ShadowJK> 13 megabytes/sec read, 7Megabytes/sec write. Transcend Class 6
Nov 12 16:33:51 <neal> ShadowJK: What was your benchmark?
Nov 12 16:34:21 <ShadowJK> dd if=/dev/zero of=/media/mmc1/test bs=1M count=1024
Nov 12 16:35:55 <neal> and that is only with your buffer size change?
Nov 12 16:36:27 <ShadowJK> yes
Nov 12 16:37:11 <neal> ShadowJK: Did you sync?
Nov 12 16:37:20 <ShadowJK> I have ext3 on mmc1, which is nonoptimal for write throughput. It peaks at 10Megabytes/sec until it comes time to update the journal and metadata, which consists of a few small writes, and that's slow, so speed drops to 1 Megabyte/s when it's doing that
Nov 12 16:38:18 <neal> I did: time sh -c '/usr/bin/gnu/dd if=/dev/zero of=/media/mmc1/foo  count=1k bs=1M; sync'
Nov 12 16:39:18 <dangergrrl> i have a pc with no wifi, running gentoo, where i am at i have no cell service, can i use the n900 as a wifi adapter until i go buy one?
Nov 12 16:39:51 <DocScrutinizer> umm, theoretically yes
Nov 12 16:40:03 <neal> dangergrrl: The power kernel has nat modules, as I understand it
Nov 12 16:40:27 <DocScrutinizer> yep, you'll need those, plus usb-networking
Nov 12 16:41:45 <dangergrrl> seems like it should work if i knew how :)
Nov 12 16:42:25 <DocScrutinizer> get usb-networking up so you can ssh from PC to N900 and vice versa, via USB
Nov 12 16:43:28 <ShadowJK> neal, average speed including ext3 braindeadedness and sync 5.2Mbytes/sec
Nov 12 16:43:32 <dangergrrl> i think i saw a doc on using the usb networking to tether to gsm, in theory the same would work for wlan0
Nov 12 16:43:34 <DocScrutinizer> then follow instructions to share LAN internet of PC to N900 (buzzword ip forwarding), just apply the commands meant for PC to your N900 instead 
Nov 12 16:43:40 <mgedmin> dangergrrl, sadly, no
Nov 12 16:43:46 <mgedmin> GSM tethering is supported out of the box
Nov 12 16:43:49 <mgedmin> WiFi isn't
Nov 12 16:43:51 <ShadowJK> time for "sync" after rm test: 4 seconds
Nov 12 16:44:07 <neal> ShadowJK: I like being able to recover :-)
Nov 12 16:44:07 <mgedmin> for GSM tethering the Nokia pretends to be a traditional USB modem
Nov 12 16:44:28 <neal> ShadowJK: May be we need a logging file system...
Nov 12 16:44:36 <ShadowJK> neal, yes, yes we do
Nov 12 16:44:39 <neal> ShadowJK: But I want reliability :)
Nov 12 16:44:55 * ShadowJK uses LogFS on his sheevaplug's usb flash
Nov 12 16:45:00 <mgedmin> to share a Wifi connection you need either NAT (which the standard kernel doesn't have), or a poor man's solution like the built-in SSH SOCKS proxy
Nov 12 16:46:12 <DocScrutinizer> ssh socks porixy, good call
Nov 12 16:46:38 <dangergrrl> but there are something like 5 ways to do gsm tethering, one seemed similar enough, the modem one makes the n900 unable to use it's own net
Nov 12 16:46:55 <ShadowJK> that's operator-dependent
Nov 12 16:47:13 <DocScrutinizer> gangyes, and modem approach isn't applicable to AP
Nov 12 16:47:22 <DocScrutinizer> dangergrrl: ^^^
Nov 12 16:48:18 <dangergrrl> one method used usb networking and the n900 appears as an eth0, i have the power kernel
Nov 12 16:48:30 <DocScrutinizer> dangergrrl: you already got all the bits of info you need: USB-networking plus NAT based IP forwarding
Nov 12 16:48:49 <dangergrrl> ok, thanks :)
Nov 12 16:49:11 <ShadowJK> now I remember why I havent benchmarked these "spare" Class 10s
Nov 12 16:49:20 * ShadowJK goes find a drill or something to open the fucking blisterpacks
Nov 12 16:49:45 <DocScrutinizer> just follow the instructions under "sharing your PC internet to N900 over USB", just do all the setup meant for PC on your N900 instead
Nov 12 16:50:12 <DocScrutinizer> except those related to mere USB network setup
Nov 12 16:50:43 <neal> ShadowJK: If you are going to use a class 10 card, you might need a different opma_hsmmc module.
Nov 12 16:50:50 <neal> http://forums.internettablettalk.com/showthread.php?t=72789
Nov 12 16:51:05 <DocScrutinizer> as you rPC still is hosat and N900 still gadget, from a USB POV
Nov 12 16:51:06 <neal> and http://forums.internettablettalk.com/showpost.php?p=1122330&postcount=69
Nov 12 16:51:19 <ShadowJK> ah yes, the typical Kingston "almost SD"
Nov 12 16:51:25 <DocScrutinizer> as your PC still is host and N900 still gadget, from a USB POV
Nov 12 16:51:50 <neal> ShadowJK: I don't understand the kingston comment...
Nov 12 16:52:34 <ShadowJK> they make cards that almost comply to the microsdhc spec
Nov 12 16:52:37 <ShadowJK> almost :-)
Nov 12 16:52:55 <neal> I have a transcend card, which exhibits that problem
Nov 12 16:53:07 <ShadowJK> they're kinda same breed
Nov 12 16:54:57 <DocScrutinizer> hell, how I hate those Itt URLS! please use http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=72789 instead
Nov 12 16:57:36 <SpeedEvil> neal: I've seen >11M/s on the internal mmc, and the SD card - at the sme time
Nov 12 16:57:56 <SpeedEvil> 22M/s aggregate
Nov 12 17:00:22 * ShadowJK yawns
Nov 12 17:00:34 <ShadowJK> getting very slow performance on a Kingston Class 10, no errors in dmesg though
Nov 12 17:01:58 <SpeedEvil> The above performance was on a very cheap kingston 1G card
Nov 12 17:11:43 <ShadowJK> heh. Kingston Class 10: 15minutes47 sec dd, 31s sync
Nov 12 17:12:43 * AlmightyOatmeal throws in a tic-tac as ShadowJK yawns
Nov 12 17:16:25 <DocScrutinizer> SpeedEvil: no surprise, as both use a dedicated HW IF aka controller
Nov 12 17:17:21 <MohammadAG> wohooo
Nov 12 17:17:30 <MohammadAG> Israel forced a law that all phones must be unlocked
Nov 12 17:17:41 <DocScrutinizer> HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
Nov 12 17:17:46 <ShadowJK> Transcend Class 10: 3m19s + sync 12s.
Nov 12 17:17:55 <DocScrutinizer> or detonated X-P
Nov 12 17:18:02 <DocScrutinizer> at customs
Nov 12 17:18:14 <MohammadAG> oh yeah, all phones sold in Israel :p
Nov 12 17:18:41 <ShadowJK> .. which makes the Class 10 transcend slightly slower than the Class 6 Transcend..
Nov 12 17:18:50 * ShadowJK isn't entirely surprised
Nov 12 17:19:24 <SpeedEvil> MohammadAG: neat!
Nov 12 17:19:33 <SpeedEvil> MohammadAG: I don't suppose it extends to bootloaders?
Nov 12 17:19:41 <DocScrutinizer> what was the evil master of uSD now? transcend or kingston?
Nov 12 17:19:49 <MohammadAG> SpeedEvil, I don't think they know what bootloaders are
Nov 12 17:20:06 <DocScrutinizer> I.E. who was selling crap only?
Nov 12 17:20:28 <SpeedEvil> MohammadAG: Sure - if you can get an argument past a judge that the law really means bootloaders too, ...
Nov 12 17:20:48 <DocScrutinizer> meh, I bet that relates to SIMlock only
Nov 12 17:21:21 <DocScrutinizer> their idea of "unlocked" is unrelated to ours
Nov 12 17:21:22 <SpeedEvil> Well - yes.
Nov 12 17:21:41 <SpeedEvil> However, laws are often badly draftd, and do not say what the lawmakers think they do.
Nov 12 17:21:59 <SpeedEvil> This can occasionally be to your advantage.
Nov 12 17:22:06 <DocScrutinizer> yup
Nov 12 17:22:12 <DocScrutinizer> not for 
Nov 12 17:22:16 <DocScrutinizer> ~isreal-sucks
Nov 12 17:22:22 <DocScrutinizer> ~israel-sucks
Nov 12 17:22:23 <infobot> israel-sucks is, like, http://www.dhl.com/content/g0/en/express/tracking.shtml?brand=DHL&AWB=6936258346%0D%0A
Nov 12 17:22:26 <DocScrutinizer> though
Nov 12 17:24:01 <DocScrutinizer> and o way to use this "unlock" as a leverage to make any manuf open up their sourcecode
Nov 12 17:24:06 <ShadowJK> DocScrutinizer, kingston is the source-from-everyone-brand-as-Kingston
Nov 12 17:24:18 <DocScrutinizer> thanks
Nov 12 17:24:32 <DocScrutinizer> I laways confuse it when transcend comes in
Nov 12 17:24:35 <DocScrutinizer> dunno why
Nov 12 17:25:24 <DocScrutinizer> note to self: "King-ston == King of Shit a metric ton"
Nov 12 18:01:15 <dlirit> morning
Nov 12 18:12:14 <dangergrrl> usb networking is up, i have 8.8.8.8 and 4.4.4.4 as nameservers on pc and route add -net default gw 192.168.2.14 usb0
Nov 12 18:13:03 <dangergrrl> and echo 1 into the /proc/sys/...ip_forwarding on n900
Nov 12 18:13:07 <dlirit> I've been wondering, does n810 support power/charging through usb or only through the charger it comes with?
Nov 12 18:14:49 <Sicelo> btw, who is 4.4.4.4? my n900 returns host does not exist
Nov 12 18:15:17 <dlirit> Sicelo: it's google's dns
Nov 12 18:15:45 <dangergrrl> and two iptables commands on the n900
Nov 12 18:15:59 <Sicelo> thought it was 8.8.8.8 and 8.8.4.4
Nov 12 18:16:56 <dangergrrl> 8.8.8.8 and 4.4.4.4 i think are google dns but i could have the second one wrong
Nov 12 18:18:17 * dlirit thought I have just said that
Nov 12 18:19:23 <dangergrrl> maybe it is 8.8.4.4 :) ping gets 8.8.8.8 and not 4.4.4.4
Nov 12 18:20:37 <valerius> dangergrrl 8.8.8.8 and 8.8.4.4, not 4.4.4.4
Nov 12 18:23:05 <dangergrrl> anyhow i have iptables -P FORWARD ACCEPT; iptables -a POSTROUTING -t nat -j MASQUERADE -s 192.168.2.0/24 on n900
Nov 12 18:23:27 <dangergrrl> and my pc gets host unreachable
Nov 12 18:24:12 <dangergrrl> maybe one of those is wrong
Nov 12 18:26:26 <neal> did you enable ip forwarding?
Nov 12 18:26:26 <dangergrrl> i am guessing it is something simple
Nov 12 18:26:35 <dangergrrl> yes
Nov 12 18:26:50 <neal> on my router, I have
Nov 12 18:26:53 <neal>  up echo 1 > /proc/sys/net/ipv4/ip_forward
Nov 12 18:26:56 <neal>  up iptables -t nat -A POSTROUTING -o ppp0 -j MASQUERADE
Nov 12 18:26:59 <neal>  down iptables -t nat -D POSTROUTING -o ppp0 -j MASQUERADE
Nov 12 18:32:31 <dangergrrl> tried that with usb0 instead of ppp0 and still get !H on traceroute 8.8.8.8
Nov 12 18:33:19 <mgedmin> no, you need that on wlan0, not usb0
Nov 12 18:33:32 <dangergrrl> oh
Nov 12 18:34:01 <mgedmin> and remove it from usb0
Nov 12 18:34:06 <DocScrutinizer> mgedmin: pm?
Nov 12 18:34:10 <mgedmin> m?
Nov 12 18:34:23 <mgedmin> yes, the hours are in the P.M. over here
Nov 12 18:34:25 <mgedmin> or what did you mean?
Nov 12 18:34:40 <DocScrutinizer> http://mg.pov.lt/maemo-irclog/  -> search xxx  -> http://mg.pov.lt/maemo-irclog/search?q=xxxxx   ///   http://mg.pov.lt/maemo-ssu-irclog/ -> search xxxxx -> http://mg.pov.lt/maemo-ssu-irclog/search?q=xxxx -> 404
Nov 12 18:34:52 <mgedmin> augh willfix
Nov 12 18:35:17 <DocScrutinizer> thanks
Nov 12 18:36:20 <mgedmin> oh dear I'm logging 11 channels
Nov 12 18:36:40 <mgedmin> I need 5 lines of apache config for each search page
Nov 12 18:37:55 <dangergrrl> sigh, will have to try later, thx for the help anyhow :)
Nov 12 18:38:14 * mgedmin attempts to refactor
Nov 12 18:38:21 * mgedmin forgot the exact syntax for rewrite rules
Nov 12 18:38:28 <DocScrutinizer> thnaks for providing the most nice irc logger to be found anywhere
Nov 12 18:38:59 <mgedmin> I've seen nicer logs (but not the tools they were built with)
Nov 12 18:40:58 <DocScrutinizer> I'm only missing wrapping of long lines :-D
Nov 12 18:41:43 <mgedmin> DocScrutinizer: should be fixed now for all channels
Nov 12 18:41:46 <DocScrutinizer> actually no, usually they are wrapped
Nov 12 18:41:55 <mgedmin> wrapping -- me too! show me how to wrap them in HTML
Nov 12 18:41:57 <DocScrutinizer> :nod:
Nov 12 18:42:06 <mgedmin> it's huuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuugesinglewords that are usually URLs that cause problems
Nov 12 18:42:19 <DocScrutinizer> :nod: again
Nov 12 18:42:48 <DocScrutinizer> http://mg.pov.lt/maemo-irclog/latest.log.html#t2011-11-12T00:09:33 <- OK
Nov 12 18:42:50 <mgedmin> I'm thinking of inserting zero-width spaces after each /, which would break copy-paste maybe, but links are already linkified...
Nov 12 18:43:01 <mgedmin> so you can right-click and copy link address
Nov 12 18:43:10 <DocScrutinizer> :-D
Nov 12 18:44:11 <RST38h> EHLO gentlemen. What's cooking tonight?
Nov 12 18:45:17 <mgedmin> how do you insert a zero-width space in HTML?  some unicode character?
Nov 12 18:45:26 <mgedmin> use a soft hyphen maybe?
Nov 12 19:18:46 <jargon-> how do i change the background color in bash3 on the n900?
Nov 12 19:19:10 <jargon-> and text color too, of course
Nov 12 19:27:41 <neal> jargon-: That has to do with your terminal, not bash
Nov 12 19:36:07 <jargon-> neal: how do i do the colors in my terminal?
Nov 12 19:38:19 <Sicelo> xterm title bar, Font
Nov 12 20:04:32 <PBeck> hello, i have a problem with my n900. I have deinstalled the package mscim and a few others with the same prefix and now all widgets have no translations anymore - thats means the clock shows for example - wdgt_va_24h_time. I think the problem is that the language support is not installed correctly anymore. Which packages i have to install for english and german language support?
Nov 12 20:06:50 <PBeck> locale-archives is defect i a way, i think?
Nov 12 20:20:26 <PBeck> perhaps somebody can share his locales-archive to check if that solve the problem
Nov 12 20:24:34 * mgedmin goes to find his n900
Nov 12 20:25:15 <PBeck> mgedmin: oh what happend? You have not replaced it?! :p
Nov 12 20:25:26 <mgedmin> sort of ;)
Nov 12 20:25:28 <PBeck> the good stable brick :)
Nov 12 20:25:30 <mgedmin> the N9 is gorgeous
Nov 12 20:25:34 <mgedmin> and weighs less
Nov 12 20:25:52 <neal> I'm attached to me N900
Nov 12 20:25:56 <neal> s/me/my/
Nov 12 20:25:57 <infobot> neal meant: I'm attached to my N900
Nov 12 20:25:59 <mgedmin> (most importantly, 1 gig of ram makes it not slow down like the 256 mb n900 used to)
Nov 12 20:26:32 <PBeck> mgedmin: yes the weight - you are right. The N9 will not be selled officially at germany from the providers
Nov 12 20:26:38 <mgedmin> I've had this experience with every nokia tablet: disappointment (but I liked the old one better!), trial, acceptance, love
Nov 12 20:27:18 <neal> PBeck: You can get it on amazon
Nov 12 20:27:37 <PBeck> mgedmin: yes sometimes i hate it to wait a long time, when 10 browser windows are open. The problem is - the browser will be killed and i have no restore function :/
Nov 12 20:27:44 <NIN101> aeigs! no microsd slot! no hw keyboard!!1!one 
Nov 12 20:28:02 <PBeck> neal: yes but i think it's the only seller in germany
Nov 12 20:28:23 <mgedmin> neal, http://pastie.org/2853745 is a list of all debian packages installed on my n900
Nov 12 20:28:52 <PBeck> or perhaps a few other online shops - but i dont know why nokia not sell it officially? The microsoft deal is perhaps a problem?
Nov 12 20:29:18 <neal> mgedmin: You're missing woodchuck :-)
Nov 12 20:29:19 * mgedmin guesses it has something to do with the inferior Lumia 800 looking almost exactly the same
Nov 12 20:29:43 <mgedmin> oh, is that you, Neal?
Nov 12 20:29:44 <mgedmin> hi!
Nov 12 20:30:39 <PBeck> is the n9 the samle hackable as the n900?
Nov 12 20:30:42 <PBeck> *same
Nov 12 20:30:46 * neal waves.
Nov 12 20:30:54 <NIN101> ~aegis
Nov 12 20:30:55 <infobot> http://www.developer.nokia.com/Community/Wiki/Harmattan:Developer_Library/Developing_for_Harmattan/Harmattan_security/Security_guide , or "The purpose of this framework is: ... to make sure that the platform meets the requirements set by third party software that requires a safe execution environment.", or http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trusted_Computing#Criticism, or  http://en.qi-hardware.com/w/images/1/10/ME_382_LockedUpTechnology2.gif
Nov 12 20:31:09 <neal> mgedmin: Are there so many neals :)
Nov 12 20:33:13 <PBeck> mgedmin: hum i think the l10n packages are all installed
Nov 12 20:33:25 <mgedmin> Dr. Horrible is a Neal :)
Nov 12 20:33:29 <PBeck> perhaps you can share your /usr/lib/locales-archive?
Nov 12 20:33:33 * AlmightyOatmeal starts neal on fire
Nov 12 20:33:56 <PBeck> /usr/lib/locale/locale-archive
Nov 12 20:33:58 <neal> mgedmin: Who's that?
Nov 12 20:34:01 * mgedmin keeps forgetting his n900's hostname is mg-n900-2
Nov 12 20:34:23 <mgedmin> you haven't seen Dr. Horrible's Sing-a-long Blog?  my, are you in for a treat!
Nov 12 20:34:36 <neal> hmm, he's actually a neil
Nov 12 20:34:56 * mgedmin fails at spelling
Nov 12 20:35:31 <mgedmin> PBeck, -rw-r--r--    1 root     root     23911920 Feb 19  2010 /usr/lib/locale/locale-archive
Nov 12 20:35:42 <mgedmin> md5sum: 0c0677ff23708192bc8e46187d9dedcf
Nov 12 20:36:07 <mgedmin> dpkg -S says it belongs to posix-locales
Nov 12 20:36:56 <PBeck> hum ok then i will check if a reinstall works
Nov 12 20:37:33 <mgedmin> do you have that file? does it have  different size/md5sum?
Nov 12 20:37:54 <PBeck> i think it differs from the languages installed
Nov 12 20:37:57 <mgedmin> the list of packages I pastebin'd was produced with dpkg-query -W --showformat '${STATUS} ${PACKAGE}\n'|grep ' installed '|cut -d ' ' -f 4-
Nov 12 20:38:05 <mgedmin> you could diff yours with mine
Nov 12 20:39:50 <PBeck> ok wait one momemt
Nov 12 20:39:59 <PBeck> -n + m
Nov 12 20:46:00 <dangergrrl> sigh
Nov 12 20:46:11 <dangergrrl> iptables hates me
Nov 12 20:48:10 <PBeck> mgedmin: ok looks very similar - the same from the system files
Nov 12 20:51:17 <PBeck> mgedmin: can you share your locale-archives`
Nov 12 20:51:18 <PBeck> ?
Nov 12 20:51:49 <jrayhawk> dangergrrl: http://www.aptalaska.net/~jclive/IPTablesFlowChart.pdf first make sure you have this
Nov 12 20:51:56 <PBeck> mgedmin: oh it has worked
Nov 12 20:52:04 <mgedmin> good
Nov 12 20:52:34 <PBeck> mgedmin: you are a hero :) apt-get --reinstall install posix-locales was the right command
Nov 12 20:52:53 <PBeck> mgedmin: so a big thank you for the tipp with posix-locales
Nov 12 20:53:04 <mgedmin> I've no idea how it could've broken
Nov 12 20:53:57 <PBeck> mgedmin: at the forum all people solved the problem with flashing - but that would be crazy, so it was a good idea to come to the maemo channel :) 
Nov 12 20:54:21 <mgedmin> flashing is a good solution because it'll almost always work
Nov 12 20:54:29 <PBeck> mgedmin: perhaps mscim has broken it - was support for chinese language, dont know
Nov 12 20:55:18 <mgedmin> hm
Nov 12 20:55:27 <PBeck> mgedmin: yeah of course. But thats normally a easy problem, when a package is broken and we know that the file locales-archive is broken
Nov 12 20:55:37 <mgedmin> I'd need to look at its postinst scripts to find out
Nov 12 20:57:33 <PBeck> mgedmin: now i have learned that i can search with dpkg -S for a package thats contains a specific file :)
Nov 12 20:58:26 <mgedmin> most useful dpkg/apt commands: apt-cache search, apt-cache policy, dpkg -S, dpkg -L
Nov 12 20:58:39 <mgedmin> (not counting apt-get install and such)
Nov 12 21:00:43 <DocScrutinizer> mgedmin: http://mg.pov.lt/maemo-ssu-irclog/search?q=##topic-11-18 for some strange reason doesn't do the search
Nov 12 21:01:24 <PBeck> mgedmin: yep right, thank you
Nov 12 21:01:25 <PBeck> hi DocScrutinizer 
Nov 12 21:01:25 <DocScrutinizer> mgedmin: I gather it might need najor structure changes of how apache works there to get it done
Nov 12 21:01:37 <mgedmin> DocScrutinizer, http://mg.pov.lt/maemo-ssu-irclog/search?q=%23%23topic-11-18
Nov 12 21:01:44 <DocScrutinizer> mgedmin: so maybe just ignore this
Nov 12 21:01:48 <mgedmin> I will
Nov 12 21:02:04 <mgedmin> after I make fun of you for entering URLs manually and forgetting that # separates the URL from the anchor :)
Nov 12 21:02:26 <DocScrutinizer> damn transcoding
Nov 12 21:03:03 <PBeck> btw is cssu ready for stable use?
Nov 12 21:03:21 <DocScrutinizer> I thought as much, and clicking on the URL does partial transcoding to #%23 here
Nov 12 21:04:02 <DocScrutinizer> bug in konqueror/KDE I guess
Nov 12 21:04:16 <DocScrutinizer> or in Konversation
Nov 12 21:04:25 <DocScrutinizer> really obscure issue
Nov 12 21:05:04 <DocScrutinizer> PBeck: Stable branch of CSSU is under roll-out testing procedure this very mment
Nov 12 21:06:56 <PBeck> DocScrutinizer: sounds good, thats means it will be released in a short time?
Nov 12 21:08:36 <rly> I get a usb0-n900 device and a n900 device. How can I just get one device created? It also seems that the names are different too each time.
Nov 12 21:10:01 <rly> So, one time the HWAddr of usb0-n900 is some non-zero number and the other time it is the n900 device which has that.
Nov 12 21:11:21 <psycho_oreos> 1) udev, 2) modinfo g_info
Nov 12 21:11:56 <psycho_oreos> point 2 is somewhat discussed in USB networking
Nov 12 21:12:25 <rly> psycho_oreos:  ERROR: modinfo: could not find module g_info
Nov 12 21:13:04 <psycho_oreos> rly, hint: on N900
Nov 12 21:14:03 <rly> psycho_oreos: modinfo: could not find module g_info
Nov 12 21:14:14 <rly> psycho_oreos: that's on the phone as root.
Nov 12 21:14:28 <psycho_oreos> rly, my bad g_nokia
Nov 12 21:15:23 <rly> psycho_oreos: I get output, but nothing I recognize that might be of value.
Nov 12 21:15:54 <rly> I have some udev rule, which triggers when I connect the device.
Nov 12 21:16:16 <rly> That runs a script.
Nov 12 21:16:53 <rly> psycho_oreos: basically: if $(ifconfig n900 192.168.3.14 && ifconfig n900 up); then echo "We connected n900" >> $HOME/somefile etc.
Nov 12 21:17:04 <psycho_oreos> rly, again, point 2 of what I stated is in the USB networking wiki. If you look for that g_nokia you will see how it is to be used. As for udev, you probably need to rename interfaces, etc
Nov 12 21:17:07 <rly> psycho_oreos: it runs that in an ethernal loop.
Nov 12 21:17:19 <rly> eternal*
Nov 12 21:17:31 <DocScrutinizer> PBeck: yes
Nov 12 21:17:49 <rly> And.. it actually succeeds, but I don't see how it only works if I disconnect and connect the phone two times.
Nov 12 21:17:55 <rly> It doesn't work the first time.
Nov 12 21:18:11 <rly> I.e. the n900 HWAddress address stays some 000.
Nov 12 21:18:25 <rly> So, the host interface named n900, not anything on the phone.
Nov 12 21:19:22 <psycho_oreos> it is not the host that needs to change the MAC address as per se for USB networking, its more like the device that needs the interface assigned to a MAC address at boot.
Nov 12 21:19:48 <PBeck> DocScrutinizer: :)
Nov 12 21:20:14 <PBeck> stefan raab springt auch nur zum spaß :P
Nov 12 21:20:54 <rly> psycho_oreos: I can't really convert that into something I could try.
Nov 12 21:21:16 <PBeck> upps wrong windows :)
Nov 12 21:21:57 <psycho_oreos> rly, I guess its time for you to consult the modinfo manpages. Also the modprobe manpages
Nov 12 21:22:30 <rly> psycho_oreos: I already have ethernet over usb working, it's just the device name which seems to change.
Nov 12 21:22:37 <rly> psycho_oreos: so, for the usbnet driver?
Nov 12 21:23:09 <rly> psycho_oreos: modinfo usbnet also doesn't tell my anything I want to know.
Nov 12 21:23:15 <psycho_oreos> I'm fairly certain udev cannot assign MAC addresses, so the only way to make it work is for the endpoint to assign MAC address itself which therefore is N900 itself
Nov 12 21:23:37 <psycho_oreos> rly, you're now throwing yourself off on a tangent when I told you what you need to do
Nov 12 21:23:43 <DocScrutinizer> there's been some BS brainf*cked function in standard linux to assign random MAC addr to USB ethernet devices
Nov 12 21:23:58 <DocScrutinizer> or sth like that
Nov 12 21:24:10 <rly> psycho_oreos: it already is assigning mac addresses if I put it in twice.
Nov 12 21:24:14 <psycho_oreos> at least the good thing is that you can fix the MAC address with g_nokia kernel module
Nov 12 21:24:37 <rly> psycho_oreos: so your theory that we need the g_nokia kernel module is not true.
Nov 12 21:24:47 <psycho_oreos> rly, again continuing off on a tangent
Nov 12 21:24:59 <rly> psycho_oreos: it might be that it could make things more predictable, which might have use, but it isn't an established fact.
Nov 12 21:25:06 <psycho_oreos> rly, it needs to be specified and maybe a reboot is necessary
Nov 12 21:25:18 <rly> psycho_oreos: reboots of neither device were needed.
Nov 12 21:25:24 <jacekowski> DocScrutinizer: kinda 
Nov 12 21:25:30 <psycho_oreos> rly, keep pondering then, I have my two N900 working through USB networking perfectly with set MAC addresses
Nov 12 21:25:32 <jacekowski> DocScrutinizer: you can tell it to use specific mac address
Nov 12 21:25:48 <rly> psycho_oreos: because again, I already have the n900 working with ethernet over usb.
Nov 12 21:25:57 <rly> psycho_oreos: it is just that in one major case, it doesn't.
Nov 12 21:26:36 <psycho_oreos> rly, just because you did it with ethernet it does not mean that its anything particularly special. If the MAC address is bound to change then it still is the module.
Nov 12 21:27:04 <rly> psycho_oreos: once it has a mac address it has always worked, so I don't see that as a problem.
Nov 12 21:27:13 <psycho_oreos> rly, its ok, keep throwing yourself off the tangent, I've pointed out the cause.. and its also stated in the USB networking wiki but you're just not willing to accept the truth
Nov 12 21:27:41 <rly> psycho_oreos: you have not provided information that is consistent with the data.
Nov 12 21:27:55 <rly> Or rather, you seem to ignore my observations.
Nov 12 21:28:05 <rly> I believe that your setup works, though.
Nov 12 21:28:22 <rly> It doesn't mean that your setup is the only possible way in which it can work.
Nov 12 21:28:34 <psycho_oreos> rly, It has to set itself a MAC address, but most of the time the MAC address is randomised
Nov 12 21:28:35 <psycho_oreos> rly, I have provided clues but you have not bothered to listen
Nov 12 21:29:08 <psycho_oreos> ok so go experiment then
Nov 12 21:29:11 <rly> psycho_oreos: can you then perhaps explain it more clearly?
Nov 12 21:29:28 <rly> What is 'it' for example?
Nov 12 21:29:57 <psycho_oreos> rly, no I'm not going to repeat myself. There's already information stated at least twice throughout this simple trivial issue
Nov 12 21:30:48 <psycho_oreos> If a device does not have a MAC address it basically cannot communicate on the network, period
Nov 12 21:31:14 <rly> psycho_oreos: that part is clear.
Nov 12 21:31:44 <rly> What is not clear is how the N900 is possibly going to set a mac address on the host.
Nov 12 21:31:51 <rly> That just doesn't make sense.
Nov 12 21:32:08 <psycho_oreos> rly, and that isn't news that every networked device has to have a MAC address.
Nov 12 21:32:49 <rly> psycho_oreos: no, that's not news.
Nov 12 21:32:59 <psycho_oreos> I never stated N900 is changing the MAC addreess on the host.
Nov 12 21:33:29 <psycho_oreos> rly, oh so you now realise
Nov 12 21:33:51 <rly> psycho_oreos: I realise nothing, but you might be 'right'.
Nov 12 21:34:03 <rly> I don't care about who is right or wrong. I just want to solve this issue.
Nov 12 21:34:31 <rly> The issue being that sometimes the usb0-n900 device gets the mac address and sometimes it is the n900 device.
Nov 12 21:34:33 <psycho_oreos> rly, I'm not debating on right and wrong. I'm merely stating the facts
Nov 12 21:34:54 <rly> psycho_oreos: ok, well, I am not realizing anything. That's also a fact.
Nov 12 21:35:25 <rly> psycho_oreos: can you give a specific hint?
Nov 12 21:35:28 <psycho_oreos> rly, despite the clues that has been laid out before hand
Nov 12 21:35:53 <psycho_oreos> rly, 1) man udev, 2) man modinfo, 3) man modprobe
Nov 12 21:35:55 <rly> psycho_oreos: perhaps my problem is entirely different from what you believe; that wouldn't be the first time someone has send me into the woods.
Nov 12 21:36:22 <rly> I could try to tell udev to never create a usb0-n900 device.
Nov 12 21:36:25 <psycho_oreos> rly, if you believe that is the case, you're free to ask others and get their opinions
Nov 12 21:36:43 <psycho_oreos> and that is still not the point
Nov 12 21:37:03 <rly> But I don't even know whether I can even stop that from happening.
Nov 12 21:37:16 <rly> Well, it seems that the system randomly picks usb0-n900 or n900.
Nov 12 21:37:32 <rly> So, if usb0-n900 doesn't exist, the problem doesn't exist.
Nov 12 21:37:45 <rly> I didn't design these crappy interfaces.
Nov 12 21:37:46 * psycho_oreos gives up and focuses on some more useful work
Nov 12 21:38:00 <rly> Thanks for not helping me then.
Nov 12 21:39:26 <rly> This kind of problem solving is a useless gimmick, because they are manufactured problems.
Nov 12 21:39:41 * psycho_oreos votes for PEBKAC +1
Nov 12 21:40:00 <psycho_oreos> Layer 8 error
Nov 12 21:41:02 <rly> I understand all your bad jokes.
Nov 12 21:41:56 <rly> The wiki doesn't mention anything about assigning MAC addresses manually.
Nov 12 21:42:29 <rly> Ok, well, that's not entirely true.
Nov 12 21:43:02 <psycho_oreos> "Fixing the MAC address" isn't there is it? it must have been deleted from wiki
Nov 12 21:44:24 <rly> psycho_oreos: I already corrected myself.
Nov 12 21:45:03 <psycho_oreos> rly, at least 5 minutes after I provided the initial hint
Nov 12 21:45:17 <rly> It also says that is confuses Mac OS X, not whether Linux is also affected.
Nov 12 21:45:21 <rly> it*
Nov 12 21:45:26 <psycho_oreos> s/minutes/minutes ago/
Nov 12 21:45:29 <infobot> psycho_oreos meant: rly, at least 5 minutes ago after I provided the initial hint
Nov 12 21:45:32 <psycho_oreos> That isn't the point
Nov 12 21:45:51 <psycho_oreos> just because its stated for Mac, it doesn't mean linux/windows is immune
Nov 12 21:45:56 <rly> I still don't know why it would be relevant.
Nov 12 21:46:26 <rly> I expect udev to work regardless of what MAC address it has to connect to.
Nov 12 21:46:44 <rly> Yes, and I know that udev isn't connecting to anything.
Nov 12 21:47:15 <Macer> ok. can't take it anymore. i need to install just 1 hard drive in this thing to see what it can do :)
Nov 12 21:49:40 <rly> psycho_oreos: ok, so now I see that your command results in the host to see the specified fixed mac address.
Nov 12 21:49:48 <rly> psycho_oreos: it named ith eth1-n900.
Nov 12 21:49:57 <rly> it*
Nov 12 21:50:09 <rly> Now, as to why it gave that particular name? No idea.
Nov 12 21:50:41 <rly> I want to set a fixed name such that it is always the same name for the same device.
Nov 12 21:51:04 <rly> So, something like mybeautifulphone, instead of eth1-n900 or eth0-n900, etc.
Nov 12 21:54:47 <DocScrutinizer> rly: I think you got one device too much anyway
Nov 12 21:58:59 <rly> DocScrutinizer: how can I assign a name to the n900 connection which is always the same independent of how many devices I connect to my machine?
Nov 12 21:59:22 <rly> I am pretty sure that this falls apart if I add another NIC.
Nov 12 21:59:27 <DocScrutinizer> make the MAC addr of all devices the same
Nov 12 22:00:01 <rly> DocScrutinizer: uhm, shouldn't they all be different?
Nov 12 22:00:18 <DocScrutinizer> then you get different names for the different devices
Nov 12 22:01:54 <rly> DocScrutinizer: this is terribly confusing. MAC addresses are supposed to be unique within one network or 'bad things' happen.
Nov 12 22:02:04 <DocScrutinizer> yes
Nov 12 22:02:12 <DocScrutinizer> so are NIC names
Nov 12 22:02:18 <rly> DocScrutinizer: you are saying that I should connect multiple devices with the same MAC address to my machine.
Nov 12 22:02:43 <rly> DocScrutinizer: right, so everything has to be unique (something I also already knew)
Nov 12 22:02:45 <DocScrutinizer> YOU are asking for naming different devices with same name
Nov 12 22:02:52 <rly> No, I am not.
Nov 12 22:02:55 <rly> I never did.
Nov 12 22:03:00 <DocScrutinizer> meh
Nov 12 22:03:05 <rly> I want to assign a name to the n900 connection.
Nov 12 22:03:14 <rly> So, something independent of whatever else there is connected.
Nov 12 22:03:18 <rly> Something which is not a hack.
Nov 12 22:03:24 <FIQ> hmm
Nov 12 22:03:25 <DocScrutinizer> >>...which is always the same independent of how many devices I connect to my machine<<
Nov 12 22:03:44 <FIQ> ok, that problem wasn't related to the specific application...
Nov 12 22:03:45 <rly> Yes, and you apparently interpret that in some other way.
Nov 12 22:04:01 <ShadowJK> debian assigns unique devname to everything you connect
Nov 12 22:04:07 <ShadowJK> except serial devices
Nov 12 22:04:08 <rly> ShadowJK: that's the problem.
Nov 12 22:04:14 <FIQ> fine, that means that hildon-desktop has a major bug related to the "popup" windows
Nov 12 22:04:18 <rly> ShadowJK: I want to control the name for a given MAC address.
Nov 12 22:04:19 <ShadowJK> fedora doesn't
Nov 12 22:04:23 <ShadowJK> atleast not my ancient version
Nov 12 22:04:26 <psycho_oreos> nokia isn't the only offender: http://i.imgur.com/TBi4D.jpg
Nov 12 22:04:40 <rly> So, now my Nokia has some MAC set.
Nov 12 22:04:47 <rly> The host learns about this MAC.
Nov 12 22:05:07 <psycho_oreos> atheros attansic also sets random MAC address (atheros wired ethernet chip)
Nov 12 22:05:18 <FIQ> If 2 miniwindows opens at the same time, one of them becomes stuck while not having focus, making hildon impossible to navigate
Nov 12 22:05:30 <rly> Now, I want to say in the interfaces file 'the name of that MAC address is really 'mygreatconnection''.
Nov 12 22:05:36 <rly> Sim-ple.
Nov 12 22:05:42 <FIQ> shortcuts/etc like opening xterm works, but the window stays until shutdown
Nov 12 22:05:42 <rly> Except, it isn't.
Nov 12 22:05:49 <DocScrutinizer> yes it is
Nov 12 22:06:01 <rly> DocScrutinizer: hwaddress class address
Nov 12 22:06:04 <FIQ> it MIGHT work killing the application... but i can't
Nov 12 22:06:17 <rly> DocScrutinizer: I found that in  man interfaces
Nov 12 22:06:53 <rly> DocScrutinizer: so, perhaps I could make it work like that, but I have the feeling that Debian will create the eth1-n900 name anyway.
Nov 12 22:07:01 <DocScrutinizer> rly: sorry, nothing personal, I just can't decode 50% of what you say, it seems
Nov 12 22:08:00 <rly> DocScrutinizer: so, how can I name the interface for MAC address X MYNAME?
Nov 12 22:08:08 <DocScrutinizer> and since obviously you can't decode what I am trying to say, I will stop contributing
Nov 12 22:08:50 <rly> DocScrutinizer: all you said was 'yes it is'.
Nov 12 22:09:09 <rly> I want to map a MAC address to an interface name. How hard can it be?
Nov 12 22:09:18 <DocScrutinizer> yes
Nov 12 22:09:22 <rly> Likely even Google knows the answer at this point.
Nov 12 22:09:29 <DocScrutinizer> fine
Nov 12 22:09:39 <ShadowJK> luckily debian does it automatically for me :D
Nov 12 22:09:44 <DocScrutinizer> so I suggest you pester Google
Nov 12 22:09:59 <jacekowski> talk to udev
Nov 12 22:10:08 <DocScrutinizer> ~question
Nov 12 22:10:10 <infobot> extra, extra, read all about it, question is If you have a question and want people to give useful answers, make sure you have read this first: http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html
Nov 12 22:10:18 <mgedmin> did anybody mention the udev persistent-rules file yet?
Nov 12 22:10:27 <rly> The question was smart, the answers weren't.
Nov 12 22:10:30 <jacekowski> i did mention udev about 30s ago
Nov 12 22:10:33 <rly> Thanks for wasting my time.
Nov 12 22:10:40 <rly> bbl
Nov 12 22:10:47 <DocScrutinizer> no, we were still trapped in changing MAC addr that's supposed to be fixed
Nov 12 22:11:35 <DocScrutinizer> >> The question was smart, the answers weren't. << This was an extremely un-smart statement and should earn a /kick
Nov 12 22:12:09 <DocScrutinizer> byebye rly, and please don't bother to bbl
Nov 12 22:12:24 <DocScrutinizer> we don't want to waste your time any further
Nov 12 22:20:34 <psycho_oreos> +1, heh some people just aren't cut out to use linux as it is
Nov 12 23:00:41 <Sicelo> :/
Nov 12 23:39:00 <pauly_> hello
Nov 12 23:39:32 <pauly_> hows the n9 any opionons
Nov 12 23:40:04 <psycho_oreos> -> #n9
Nov 12 23:40:53 <SpeedEvil> Is there a #n9 - seperate from #harmattan?
Nov 12 23:40:58 <pauly_> cool didnt know there was a channel
Nov 12 23:41:57 <pauly_> n9 or harmattan
Nov 12 23:42:52 <psycho_oreos> harmattan was more for the developer.. you probably find more owners with N950 in #harmattan than in #n9
Nov 12 23:43:42 <pauly_> huh
Nov 12 23:45:11 <psycho_oreos> I meant harmattan as in #harmattan channel. This was discussed before that #harmattan is generally not the place for one to discuss fancy coloured cases and what not
Nov 12 23:45:56 <SpeedEvil> Ah - k
Nov 12 23:49:37 <mgedmin> I did not know about #n9!
Nov 12 23:50:05 <mgedmin> anyway, the n9 is the most beautiful phone in the world ever
Nov 12 23:50:10 <psycho_oreos> haha thinking about it you could say in somewhat of a colloquial term is that #n9 is more like #harmattan-chat :D
Nov 12 23:50:27 * psycho_oreos still thinks N950 is far more beautiful than N9
Nov 12 23:50:52 <psycho_oreos> even though I own neither of those but still have plain old N900 around
Nov 12 23:50:59 <mgedmin> each N9 is equipped with it's own near-field reality distortion field
Nov 12 23:51:04 <ShadowJK> I saw two N9s in a store today. One wouldn't boot ("Nokia" came up, then it died). The other booted and I lost interest when I couldn't slide out keyboard, pretty much
Nov 12 23:51:06 <mgedmin> you must be away from your n9 for the moment
Nov 12 23:51:17 <ShadowJK> and the fingerprint smudges was irritating me
Nov 12 23:51:28 <mgedmin> oh, "own neither" explains it
Nov 12 23:51:43 * mgedmin expected to hate the keyboardless n9
Nov 12 23:51:52 * mgedmin was surprised
Nov 12 23:52:40 <psycho_oreos> I played with the N9 fake phone at the shop the other day when it came to me paying bill for my N900. I couldn't help to think that nokia crippled N9-00 and codenamed it as lankku
Nov 12 23:52:40 <ShadowJK> I guess the biggest annoyance with N900 vkb is that once I start writing somehting, I can no longer scroll around the content I was looking at before the vkbd popped up
Nov 12 23:52:52 <psycho_oreos> could lankku be a Finnish term for lanky?
Nov 12 23:53:06 <ShadowJK> lankku means "board" or "plank"
Nov 12 23:53:21 <psycho_oreos> heh I'm sure we all have all sorts of qualms with N900's vkb :D
Nov 12 23:53:28 <psycho_oreos> ahh.. well I was being sarcastic :D
Nov 12 23:54:17 <ShadowJK> I guess I'm just prejudiced and ASSUME that vkbds steal screen space and make me not see things
Nov 12 23:57:39 <psycho_oreos> its not only that they still space on the screen but in its native config its quite awkward to use let alone its flakiness in the nature that its easily broken when you try to use IME
Nov 13 00:00:04 <ShadowJK> I suspect that has been fixed in N9, autobricking device if you ever think about wanting to type in anything besides latin
Nov 13 00:05:34 <mgedmin> I'd forgotten the n900 had a vkb :D
Nov 13 00:05:37 <mgedmin> it was so crap
Nov 13 00:06:32 <SpeedEvil> I find it occasionally useful.
Nov 13 00:06:43 <SpeedEvil> It's handy for several chars, singlehanded
Nov 13 00:06:48 <ShadowJK> Nokia at one point promised they'd make a vkbd with feedback you could feel the keys as you slide finger across it, so you know you were pressing the right key
Nov 13 00:07:12 * ShadowJK suspects this has not happened yet
Nov 13 00:08:06 <SpeedEvil> I'm unsure that works well.
Nov 13 00:09:03 <ShadowJK> I'm not sure how to distinguish slide from pressure on capacitive.. even if they figure out how to make multiple vibrators create tactile feedback :)
Nov 13 00:10:33 <SpeedEvil> In principle if you have a high enough resolution, you can feel the finger squish.
Nov 13 00:10:49 <SpeedEvil> Ideally, it'd be able to read fingerprints.
Nov 13 00:10:53 <SpeedEvil> Now that'd be useful.
Nov 13 00:11:40 <merlin1991> that'd be awesome reolution
Nov 13 00:11:50 <merlin1991> also scary
Nov 13 00:12:37 <SpeedEvil> Why?
Nov 13 00:12:44 <ShadowJK> If you're holding phone, thumb sliding across surface will be exposing different parts of thumb towards touch panel, and exerting a varying amount of pressure against the surface, and hence a varying amount of thumb deformation resulting in varying amounts of surface area in contact with screen :/
Nov 13 00:13:06 <SpeedEvil> Being able to have different functions for the same press on different fingers might at times be awesome.
Nov 13 00:13:26 <merlin1991> just imagine the possible use cases for such a fine grained sensor, or rather all the possible privacy invading use cases
Nov 13 00:13:28 <SpeedEvil> For example, right and left-click.
Nov 13 00:13:48 <SpeedEvil> merlin1991: If your eyes are exposed, iris recognition is just fine for that.
Nov 13 00:13:57 <ShadowJK> I guess this is highly theoretical anyway, as first Nokia would have to figure out how to detect fingers on screen in the first place, before getting into fancy stuff :-)
Nov 13 00:14:09 <merlin1991> I mean currently when you use a touch screen it doesn't know who's using it, but suddenly you'd be able to map every single touch on the screen to a person
Nov 13 00:14:16 <SpeedEvil> Gloves.
Nov 13 00:14:32 <SpeedEvil> If it's my device, I want it to recognise me. 
Nov 13 00:14:35 <SpeedEvil> And not work for others.
Nov 13 00:18:15 <merlin1991> well that's your side as the owner, but then there's the other side, it's *someones* device *someone* wants to know who's been using it
Nov 13 00:18:57 <merlin1991> the more information you can possibly collect, the more information can possibly used for sinister causes
Nov 13 00:19:38 <SpeedEvil> If someone wants to use my device without my permission, I'm sending all the info about them I can to the police.
Nov 13 00:20:33 <merlin1991> that's the police
Nov 13 00:20:51 <merlin1991> now consider your company wants spy on you and your collegues?
Nov 13 00:21:23 <merlin1991> s/collegues/colleague/
Nov 13 00:21:24 <infobot> merlin1991 meant: now consider your company wants spy on you and your colleague?
Nov 13 00:22:07 <merlin1991> you get an amazing device with loads of possibilities and it happens to be able to read your finger prints too, nice isn't it?
Nov 13 00:22:45 <merlin1991> I'd rather have my phone not recognice me and secure it myself than have it starting to decide on who I am
Nov 13 02:05:45 <DocScrutinizer> hmm, can't see major issues with such fingerprint detection, I mean after all you're not supposed to hand out your system-admin console phone to your kids, and if it's your employer reading fingerprints of the persons using that console phone, so what? Are you angry you can't give it to somebody else anymore without your employer noticing that?
Nov 13 02:07:39 <DocScrutinizer> a possible threat is "look, my new phone! wanna test it? ... Thanks for your fingerprints btw" but that can already be done exactly same way, just by using usual forensic methods to reveal and acquire the prints on arbitrary objects any time
Nov 13 02:08:33 <DocScrutinizer> re taktile feedback on buttons - harm has it, it's useless
Nov 13 02:08:53 * AlmightyOatmeal jumps in DocScrutinizer's lap
Nov 13 02:14:29 * DocScrutinizer has an idea for an awesome devicelock: have one PIN to unlock device as usual and known, but (new:) get a second PIN that on entering that PIN pops up a fake dialer screen that takes keypresses as long as device hasn't changed orientation more than maybe 15°
Nov 13 02:15:01 <DocScrutinizer> after "moving" the device, each touch even goes back from fake dialer to lock screen
Nov 13 02:15:53 <DocScrutinizer> you could actually tell the weird story of your phone having finger print reading and that's why yiu can't hand it out to anybody else, and you can actually "prove" it
Nov 13 02:16:58 <DocScrutinizer> "here, it unlocks, it takes input as long as I do it, now take the phone and press whatever you like and you'll see it locks instantly"
Nov 13 02:19:06 <DocScrutinizer> the age old trick of a user account with password "password" and login shell "dd if=dev/null of=/dev/sda"
Nov 13 02:19:14 <DocScrutinizer> in slightly changed form
Nov 13 02:20:33 <DocScrutinizer> s/null/zero/
Nov 13 02:24:55 <DocScrutinizer> SpeedEvil: btw your idea of locking down a device so thoroughly nobody could use it when stolen won't fly. There are always cute Chinese or Indians around somewhere who are willing to even replace hw components to resurrect a stilen device
Nov 13 02:25:00 <DocScrutinizer> stolen*
Nov 13 02:25:26 <SpeedEvil> And yes, I know.
Nov 13 02:25:41 <SpeedEvil> Coincidentally, I recieved some thermite in the post today.
Nov 13 02:25:49 <DocScrutinizer> hehehehe
Nov 13 02:25:58 <jonwil> From where I sit the main thing would be making sure no-one can get at your data or use your SIM if its stolen
Nov 13 02:26:12 <SpeedEvil> That too.
Nov 13 02:26:23 <DocScrutinizer> jonwil: that's "simple"
Nov 13 02:26:41 <DocScrutinizer> jonwil: but not good enough for our friend SpeedEvil 
Nov 13 02:26:48 <DocScrutinizer> ;-)
Nov 13 02:27:24 <DocScrutinizer> btw I have same feelings regarding bicycles
Nov 13 02:28:09 <DocScrutinizer> pondering all stuff from GPS trackers to shotguns under the saddle
Nov 13 02:28:40 <DocScrutinizer> some of them (the latter) feeling a bit too dangerous for me to use my own bike
Nov 13 02:28:46 <DocScrutinizer> ;-D
Nov 13 02:30:00 <DocScrutinizer> so meanwhile I resorted to a combination of padlocks, extremely cheap bike, and rust all over that
Nov 13 02:30:19 <DocScrutinizer> so far that works best
Nov 13 02:30:57 <DocScrutinizer> so for a phone that might be some gaffa tape then
Nov 13 02:32:12 <DocScrutinizer> while formfactor of N900 helps a lot here as well
Nov 13 02:32:47 <DocScrutinizer> though... I hear even of stolen OM FR
Nov 13 02:32:50 <DocScrutinizer> ;-P
Nov 13 02:32:56 <SpeedEvil> My (transparent) case is held on with strips of double-sided tape inside.
Nov 13 02:33:31 <DocScrutinizer> that should repel any thief I guess
Nov 13 02:34:51 <DocScrutinizer> I guess there's a class of thieves out there that will steal your shit when you forget to flush the toilet. For the rest N900 isn't attractive
Nov 13 02:41:38 <LaoLang_cool> I'm using palm 650, it's the best keyboard I've seen on smart phone! Even much better than n900 :)
**** ENDING LOGGING AT Sun Nov 13 02:59:56 2011