**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Tue Jan 10 02:59:58 2012 Jan 10 05:30:15 * DocScrutinizer moos evilly Jan 10 08:35:14 I am doing "./configure", but I am getting "permission denied", someone please help Jan 10 08:36:01 chmod a+x configure Jan 10 08:36:07 or , look for a file called autogen.sh or so Jan 10 08:36:12 and run that instead Jan 10 08:36:22 or.. type aclocal && autoheader && automake -a && autoconf && ./configure Jan 10 08:36:23 or something Jan 10 08:36:34 burro, are you aware of nodejs? Jan 10 08:36:39 yes Jan 10 08:36:49 is it avaliable for maemo? Jan 10 08:36:50 my web framewoork originally worked on ry dahl's ruby webservers before he switched to javascript Jan 10 08:36:54 no idea Jan 10 08:37:18 I am trying to build nodejs on n900 Jan 10 08:37:21 i think it compiles itself or something Jan 10 08:37:23 but not able to :( Jan 10 08:37:31 does it even run on ARM? Jan 10 08:37:45 it should... why wont it? Jan 10 08:37:59 beacuse its a fork of an old version of v8 from google or somethihng Jan 10 08:38:04 and tweaked ot hell and back Jan 10 08:38:18 i donno exactly how it all builds, if you pastebin the error maybe i can try to help Jan 10 08:38:39 also, just try a debian binary package Jan 10 08:38:50 how will debian binary run on n900? Jan 10 08:38:55 will it? Jan 10 08:39:01 usually Jan 10 08:39:14 im using debian binaries for screen, ntpdate, and other stuff Jan 10 08:39:30 im actually even using debian's libc beacuse debian's binaries needed newer version Jan 10 08:39:49 you mean, you can compile stuff on ubuntu and directly paste the binary on n900 and it will work? Jan 10 08:39:59 armel. not sure if armhf runs on n900 Jan 10 08:40:01 yes Jan 10 08:40:12 O.o thats cool Jan 10 08:40:41 great, then I can just copy paste the nodejs binary from ubuntu Jan 10 09:30:01 timeless: regarding the OTP card for banking, some bank here allows you to either use special pin-protected calculator, encrypted sms (which do not work on n900, thanks, Nokia), normal sms or cert Jan 10 10:17:34 edheldil: some calculators use smartcard to calculate response Jan 10 10:17:53 edheldil: and some banks just let you do whatever you want Jan 10 10:18:00 without any OTP and other stuff like that Jan 10 10:18:52 well, that sucks :) Jan 10 10:19:04 not really Jan 10 10:19:20 they don't bother pretending that you are secure Jan 10 10:20:13 only thing they do is when you add another recipent you get a phone call from them Jan 10 10:20:41 on registered phone number ( and those numbers can only be changed by physically going to a branch ) Jan 10 10:21:14 better than nothing Jan 10 10:21:21 well, thing is Jan 10 10:21:32 all attacker can do is see that you have fuck all on your account Jan 10 10:21:53 and transfer something to already added recipent Jan 10 10:22:14 not really a lot Jan 10 10:22:50 and you don't have to carry calculator/OTP cards with you all the time if you want to use your bank Jan 10 10:32:44 jacekowski: unless he steals your phone Jan 10 10:32:54 or hijacks GSM Jan 10 10:33:40 basically your phone is a token Jan 10 10:34:34 edheldil, well, it's already a lot better situation anyway Jan 10 10:34:41 edheldil, you will notice if you don't have your phone with you Jan 10 10:36:35 not in the gsm hacking case, but let's assume that risk is not that significant *yet*. Jan 10 10:38:01 if he steals my phone he still needs my bank login and password Jan 10 10:38:13 in any case such an attach would be much more targeted than random trojans from the email Jan 10 10:38:14 unless he's targetting me and he already has it Jan 10 10:38:30 but in that case he may just as well steal OTP card Jan 10 10:38:47 or, maybe he could just go and force you to do the transfer at gun point? Jan 10 10:39:01 well, he couldn't Jan 10 10:39:19 i've got £600 on my account Jan 10 10:39:22 I *think*, that OTP cards are usually complemented with a secret pin you have to add to the codes Jan 10 10:39:26 £200 is going for road tax Jan 10 10:39:38 and i've got £400 left for food untill end of the month Jan 10 10:39:43 jacekowski, quite a mighty protection you have there! Jan 10 10:39:44 flux: rubberhose cryptography? :) Jan 10 10:40:21 cryptoanalysis Jan 10 10:41:01 my bank just started asking an (semi)OTP not only for login but also for each transaction I make Jan 10 10:41:04 bloody annoying.. Jan 10 10:41:17 semi-OTP because they may reuse the numbers for transactions, but not for logins Jan 10 10:44:04 flux: I liked the way here with STK - to login, you have to enter loginname and otp code, which you get to your registered phone via encrypted sms. To make any transaction, you have to again enter the otp code, which you again get via encrypted sms, with a summary of the transaction (sum, target account, id numbers) Jan 10 10:44:47 encrypted sms? Jan 10 10:45:00 via SIM toolkit Jan 10 10:45:18 edheldil, are you able to accept transactions in bulk? Jan 10 10:45:21 i.e. you have a banking application on your SIM card Jan 10 10:46:19 flux: nope, but since I do max 3 in a row, it's sufferable Jan 10 10:47:03 Unfortunately, damned Nokia did not create STK for n900, so here the scheme, breaks apart :( Jan 10 10:47:13 sorry Jan 10 10:47:27 how would i go about fixing the dependencies of libnl-dev in the maemo reps? Jan 10 10:47:51 apt-get tells me: libnl-dev: Depends: libnl1 (= 1.1-2) but 1.1-2nokia1 is to be installed Jan 10 10:48:29 apt-get install ... --ignore-depends=libnl1 Jan 10 10:48:47 whether it's advisable is another matter Jan 10 10:50:41 ah, thats a flag for dpkg it seems, ill check into it, thanks! Jan 10 10:51:18 or try to install libnl1 first with apt-get install libnl1=1.1-2 Jan 10 10:52:28 although there's probably some package conflict which prevents this , else apt-get would maybe pick it up already, Jan 10 11:58:14 http://realnorth.net/blog/ Jan 10 12:30:28 hmm 500 eur for a brand new n900... Jan 10 12:31:25 ruskie, and for a refurbished one / with garantie left: appr. 190 Euro Jan 10 12:32:12 peb, and for a new still in box with 2 year warranty that someone is resseling 210 eur ;) Jan 10 12:33:41 So, I see you know the (used/refurbished) prices. 500âeuro ... is it a gold edition? Jan 10 12:38:29 peb, naahh just brand new ;) in a store ;) Jan 10 12:38:37 peb, and no not talking used/refurb Jan 10 12:38:43 maybe the new 900 ;) Jan 10 12:38:52 they 200 price point is for new that someone took on contract and just wants to sell on Jan 10 12:39:23 I'll definately gonna try and grab one next month Jan 10 12:39:49 though luckily *knock on wood* mine still functions perfectly Jan 10 13:10:21 ruskie: 210EU for an n900? Jan 10 13:10:22 nice Jan 10 13:10:37 new with 2 year warranty Jan 10 13:10:39 :) Jan 10 13:10:39 i was lucky to get mine off ebay for $250. new they were going for like 400-500+ Jan 10 13:10:50 i mean new from like.. amazo Jan 10 13:10:57 skype sells them as well Jan 10 13:11:01 (believe it or not) Jan 10 13:11:07 or at least they did when i was looking for one Jan 10 13:11:08 ahhh yeah new from vendor tends to cost Jan 10 13:11:21 but new as in I got this contract phone but want to sell it on still in box never even touched Jan 10 13:11:22 well. they are kind of in short supply Jan 10 13:11:30 i don't even use my usb port. i got a charger and 3 batteries :-P Jan 10 13:11:35 hehe Jan 10 13:11:41 because my first one had the usb issue .. where it.. came off lol Jan 10 13:11:51 hopefully I'll be able to get a n900 next month Jan 10 13:12:03 contacted the seller and she said she'll contact me if she sells it before then Jan 10 13:12:04 i only connect the usb if i need to move stuff to or from the phone fast or if i have to flash it Jan 10 13:12:20 well.. n900 is a special device Jan 10 13:12:35 not too many understand it and the ones who do know how awesome it is Jan 10 13:12:53 even if hildon is dated and ugly in comparison to newer UIs Jan 10 13:13:54 I love my n900 .. and just got a couple of backup devices :-) Jan 10 13:15:19 i think i am still going to get an e7 Jan 10 13:15:22 as a backup phone Jan 10 13:15:38 once they drop to 300 :) Jan 10 13:15:56 i'm not paying 400 for a phone nokia will probably drop soon. unless it's an n900 Jan 10 13:17:28 I only really probbaly need a second spare Jan 10 13:42:54 Probably a stupid question. I have 3 N900 and want all of them to be on the same software-stage. How do I do that the easiest? On a normal Linux Laptop I'd dd the harddisk and push that on all of the devices. Same on the N900? But how do I boot from (USB-)Stick? Jan 10 13:44:44 peb, you would need to create a flash image for them all Jan 10 13:44:46 it can be done Jan 10 13:45:21 I don't have a link handy but there is a meego blog post somewhere that explains how to do it Jan 10 13:46:08 ruskie, thanks -- I'll search that. Now at least I know where/what to look for. I'm pissed at the backup devices behaving slightly different ... Jan 10 14:08:55 i wonder if BackupMenu wouldn't achieve that as well (as long u flash same kernel version on all 3) Jan 10 14:25:13 Hi all. I see you are discussing backups, and I too was wondering what is currently regarded as the best way to create a full backup of my N900 (ie. programs, user files, etc)? Jan 10 14:25:45 BackupMenu... unless u are a guru who can do your own thing Jan 10 14:26:02 also, see the end of this page ... Jan 10 14:26:07 ~jrtools Jan 10 14:26:07 i guess jrtools is http://wiki.maemo.org/User:Joerg_rw/tools Jan 10 14:28:51 "things for cssu" and further down? Jan 10 14:29:29 where there's an rsync script .. at the end Jan 10 14:29:48 full backup is definitely BackupMenu though Jan 10 14:30:00 I was more looking for something to backup the linux installation Jan 10 14:30:34 one thing that scared me a bit about backupmenu was that it looks like it does something to the bootloader? Jan 10 15:33:08 hello Jan 10 16:03:46 ping pronto Jan 10 16:12:22 I'm trying to find an easy solutiion to edit my calendar on the n900. Jan 10 16:12:29 Any ideas? Jan 10 16:25:43 fosstux, not without elaborating Jan 10 16:26:03 the default calendar application? ;-) Jan 10 17:08:34 I have an n900 and I recently picked up a sd card. what filesystem should it be formatted with? Jan 10 17:11:47 vfat Jan 10 17:21:45 SpeedEvil, I thought as much. thanks Jan 10 17:37:19 Hello ! Jan 10 17:37:50 I think my n900 is bricked and I don't really know what went wrong, haven't done anything special with it before it happened Jan 10 17:38:36 When pluging it, it just start after a few seconds of solid orange light, shows the nokia logo, then a few terminal lines I can't read due to no backlight Jan 10 17:38:50 After a few more seconds, it shuts off and the whole process start again in loop Jan 10 17:39:00 could be a dead battery? Jan 10 17:39:18 wifi/bluetooth is broken on my n900 :/ Jan 10 17:40:00 Can a battery suddenly die without any warnings ? Jan 10 17:40:06 yes Jan 10 17:40:19 Oh, I hope it's that then, I love my n900 ! Jan 10 17:41:12 Is that "BL 5J" battery common ? Which other popular cellphone use it ? Jan 10 17:42:09 Is it nokia-specific ? Jan 10 17:43:35 looks like it, but they seem easy enough to get hold of Jan 10 17:54:42 nokia-specific, yes. an number of other nokias use it. look at it's detail page at nokia.com Jan 10 17:54:54 clad: the nokia 5800 uses it Jan 10 17:55:03 the touchy one Jan 10 17:56:33 Damn, I tore appart a few other nokia I have around, none of them have similar pineout. Batteries have the same voltage but are "+ ground -" and the n900 is "+ - ground" Jan 10 17:57:38 What's the point of switching those around like that ? Jan 10 17:58:41 Anyhow, since my n900 may need replacing, any other cellphone available at the moment running maemo or similar debian based distro ? Jan 10 17:59:55 sadly no Jan 10 18:00:06 well Jan 10 18:00:15 you can go for the N9, which does Jan 10 18:00:22 no keyboard/sdcard though Jan 10 18:00:43 No keyboard means no point to me Jan 10 18:01:04 I try and treat my n900 well then Jan 10 18:01:11 yup Jan 10 18:01:47 There is nothing wrong about it anyway, except that it seems to lack reliability Jan 10 18:02:19 Most people I know having one now have one or more feature gone. Sometime USB, something wifi, sometime the jack... Jan 10 18:04:33 clad: you might find a n950 on ebay Jan 10 18:04:36 but it'll cost you a shitton Jan 10 18:04:56 What's a n950 ? Jan 10 18:05:06 it's the dev/prerelease version of the n9 Jan 10 18:05:13 it has a physical kbd Jan 10 18:05:23 O.0 Jan 10 18:05:40 available on ebay? genuine? Jan 10 18:05:47 i said "might" Jan 10 18:06:00 Ebay is banned on my country sadly Jan 10 18:06:07 ok Jan 10 18:06:31 lol china Jan 10 18:07:00 anyway, sadly if you want some actual linux on your phone and not that android crap, your best bet is just to buy another n900, or repair the one you have ._. Jan 10 18:07:19 i'll probably buy the milestone 4 once it's available in europe :( Jan 10 18:07:45 Not China ! Not yet anyway, we'll probably be invaded in the coming month Jan 10 18:08:17 ooh, taiwan Jan 10 18:08:54 technically it's still china Jan 10 18:09:12 Depends which party is in power actually, it's complicated... Jan 10 18:09:22 in fact, it's probably more china than the PRC Jan 10 18:09:34 When the KMT is ruling yes Jan 10 18:09:49 anyway, i didn't know you had filtered internet too Jan 10 18:10:06 It's more like Ebay don't dare to do business here Jan 10 18:10:10 oh, i see Jan 10 18:10:30 well, even if they did, i doubt you'd find a n950 on the taiwanese ebay Jan 10 18:10:36 you'd still have to buy it from the US one Jan 10 18:10:40 We don't really have formal ban on anything, but many don't dare to trade with us by fear of being banned from china Jan 10 18:10:52 but really, it's probably impossible to find a n950 anyway Jan 10 18:13:33 Well, so no other cellphone is sight running any gnu-flavored linux then ? Jan 10 18:13:48 if android can be called linux... Jan 10 18:13:53 That's weird, there is definitly a market for it Jan 10 18:14:02 nah, it's smaller than you'd think Jan 10 18:15:09 Well, the day android can understand the repo of any big name linux distro, I'd call it linux, open source or not, but as of now it's not really more a linux than macos is a bsd Jan 10 18:15:41 There was that openmoko project, but I don't think it ever resulted in anything solid did it ? Jan 10 18:15:49 well, it did Jan 10 18:15:57 it had mediocre hardware Jan 10 18:15:59 but even the freerunner is old Jan 10 18:16:05 the GTA04 is "out" Jan 10 18:16:18 though you need a complete freerunner to make use of it Jan 10 18:17:04 And nothing in sight or rumored either ? Jan 10 18:18:21 maybe something from samsung running tizen, but nothing has been announced Jan 10 18:18:32 Didn't the KDE guys said they were targeting cellphone UI ? Don't they have any plan to get a hardware that could make use of it ? Or Ubuntu maybe ? I heard they are releasing a connected TV soon Jan 10 18:20:06 ~seen SD69 Jan 10 18:20:10 Tizen is really something solid ? I thought it was only a way to quietly kill meego. Jan 10 18:20:25 it's about as solid as meego was Jan 10 18:20:25 sd69 was last seen on IRC in channel #maemo, 785d 16h 30m 2s ago, saying: 'javispedro: ping'. Jan 10 18:20:32 Tizen is sh|tty java+html browser acting as OS Jan 10 18:20:38 meego was dead the moment Nokia swung towards WP7 Jan 10 18:20:58 Estel_: except for the gnu userspace and native gui libraries that are part o fit Jan 10 18:21:30 with 'promise' of supporting other frameworks fully Jan 10 18:21:39 come on, we've been through this already Jan 10 18:21:42 if someone steps up and supports it, yes Jan 10 18:21:59 why to care about Tizen powered by Nokia ADHD (TM) Jan 10 18:22:04 if You have Mer? Jan 10 18:22:15 My boss got a WP7 HTC phone. I can't believe people would actually put that much money into something so useless. How can nokia's decision make business sense ? Jan 10 18:22:17 I like mer yes Jan 10 18:22:27 I don't see a hardware vendor adopting Mer directly Jan 10 18:22:37 I do see Mer pulling in Tizen stuff Jan 10 18:22:39 same here unfortunatelly Jan 10 18:25:39 I think great step for it would be designing community device, like open pandora or raspberry pi Jan 10 18:25:58 freerunner did it also, but they're lacking good software adaptation Jan 10 18:26:09 mer got software, but lack decent hardware Jan 10 18:26:28 Tizen must fail miserably, its unavoidable Jan 10 18:26:38 CordiaHD won't ever get to usable state Jan 10 18:26:46 Sure, but who gonna have the balls to do it ? Jan 10 18:26:54 we the people :P Jan 10 18:26:56 freerunner also had meager hardware. 2G was bad even then. Jan 10 18:26:57 seriously though Jan 10 18:27:09 Maybe the open pandora guys could, but they are not faring too well with their own device so far Jan 10 18:27:29 High demand, but can't produce enough, as none of their partner take them seriously Jan 10 18:27:30 Estel_: why -must- i fail? Jan 10 18:27:32 it* Jan 10 18:27:37 I think that Maemo community could, after cutting ties with Nokia Jan 10 18:27:59 because it's in even worse position that Meego was when it started Jan 10 18:28:04 it is? Jan 10 18:28:10 lets say, historical experience Jan 10 18:28:30 of course, after cutting ties with Nokia, Maemo community would not be named Maemo Jan 10 18:28:36 * SpeedEvil wishes he had a spare billion or so. Jan 10 18:28:41 hahaha Jan 10 18:28:44 same here Jan 10 18:28:46 A nice slackware phone. Jan 10 18:28:49 :) Jan 10 18:29:11 yet, designing devices don't exactly must be so expensive as history tells ;) Jan 10 18:29:21 look @ CSSU testing thread Jan 10 18:29:35 umm - what? Jan 10 18:29:35 Slackware phone ? I'd buy on day 1. Jan 10 18:29:44 unrest @ X-fade irresponsibility and overall situation is growing stronger Jan 10 18:29:59 What's that got to do with designeing devices? Jan 10 18:30:02 Estel_: the cssu doesn't really tell us anything about device design... Jan 10 18:30:13 unrest @ X-fade irresponsibility and overall situation is growing stronger Jan 10 18:30:22 I swapped to talking \out cutting ties with Nokia Jan 10 18:30:24 Though in many ways, I would agree that the hardware is the easy part. Jan 10 18:30:38 sorry, It seems that i swapped to fast :P Jan 10 18:30:45 All you need is several million dollars, and a skilled smallish design team Jan 10 18:31:00 let's ask notch! Jan 10 18:31:00 hey, Pi hadn't several millions Jan 10 18:31:01 For software, the problem is harder. Jan 10 18:31:10 Estel_: Pi is cheating. Jan 10 18:31:14 Pi is also _lots_ easier. Jan 10 18:31:15 Estel_: Pi still hasn't delivered, and it's... small Jan 10 18:31:21 I doesn't have anything against cheating Jan 10 18:31:24 Why SpeedEvil ? The linux distro are here already in the open Jan 10 18:31:40 And so are cellphone UI's, KDE, ubuntu own stuffs... Jan 10 18:31:41 Pi is cheating, as the primary architect of the design is at board level in broadcom. Jan 10 18:31:42 sheevaplug/guruplug/dreamplug went through multiple iterations and was backed by a relatively big company Jan 10 18:32:01 Hence getting docs and samples and stuff from broadcom is trivial. Jan 10 18:32:14 Most of the good apps on the n900 are community made anyway Jan 10 18:32:27 SpeedEvil, for version 1 we can cheat as hell Jan 10 18:32:36 Estel_: You can't. Jan 10 18:32:37 (Who ever used the novi store or the built in apps ? Even the included package manager sucked) Jan 10 18:32:42 uhuh Jan 10 18:32:48 Estel_: You can only do that if you can find someone with a similar 'in'. Jan 10 18:32:57 We won't sell more than few thousand at most 'geek devices' Jan 10 18:33:03 without being tied with big company Jan 10 18:33:13 which is ok for me Jan 10 18:33:23 Estel_: Most makers simply will not be interested in that sort of volume. So you're limited to what you can buy off the shelf. Jan 10 18:33:39 Why so Estel_ ? All those new gen amiga had been selling very well over the past decade without being backed by anyone big Jan 10 18:33:43 Estel_: Which basically means your choice of hardware is _extremely_ limited, and adds 20% or so to your cost. Jan 10 18:33:45 what about parts from shelf (SoCetc) Jan 10 18:33:46 obviously Estel_ never bult hw Jan 10 18:33:52 which is why all the little niche devices are OMAP3 based now Jan 10 18:34:17 clad: something i was thinking about is dumb-ish phone in one pocket, openpandora in other pocket Jan 10 18:34:34 share the connection via bt when there's no wifi, use a bluetooth headset for calls on the phone and audio on the pandora Jan 10 18:34:58 And purchasing assembled PCB from china? ;) Jan 10 18:35:04 Estel_: PCBs are easy. Jan 10 18:35:08 Estel_: Though expensive. Jan 10 18:35:12 buy them from taiwan, just need to ask clad! :D Jan 10 18:35:20 whatever Jan 10 18:35:22 meh Jan 10 18:35:28 Estel_: Boards cost ~10-20* what tehy do in serious volume in thousands. Jan 10 18:35:29 kerio: how complicated would it be for an hypothetical openpandora v2 to just include a 3g chip ? Jan 10 18:35:42 clad: Easy - if you can source the 3g chip. Jan 10 18:35:44 clad: apparently DocScrutinizer asked them, they don't care about having a phone part :( Jan 10 18:35:56 SpeedEvil: of course he can, he's in taiwan! >:D Jan 10 18:35:59 first things first Jan 10 18:36:03 clad: you can't - nobody at all will sell you a chipset, only modules, which bump up the size of your device. Jan 10 18:36:05 we wont achieve anything Jan 10 18:36:28 if we just die due to developers irritations on repos left without repmaster Jan 10 18:36:36 And yes I know who to contact to get small volume (500 to 10 000) of good quality chips. Not sure about the availability of 3g chips though, but probably possible as well Jan 10 18:36:45 haha what Jan 10 18:36:47 really? :O Jan 10 18:36:57 as X-Fade is apparently only taking *our* money that Nokia pay for serfvicing *our* repos Jan 10 18:37:04 clad: 'good quality' ? Jan 10 18:37:23 By which I mean, not so obsolete Jan 10 18:37:28 clad: The other problem is the chips are half the battle - the documentation and code is the other half. Jan 10 18:37:30 SpeedEvil: if you put quotes around it, it sounds worse :( Jan 10 18:37:31 without doing a aingle f***ing thing other than checking every 6 months if he was mailed Jan 10 18:38:23 thats why I was talking about CCSU thread Jan 10 18:38:28 I am not really a technical guy, but I know exactly who to contact for those. And he has quite a good enlish. Jan 10 18:38:49 most respected devs are f***ed up by fact gthat is impossible to get services that are payd for in advance Jan 10 18:39:03 For mobile phone chipsets, the makers only sell direct, to large companies. Jan 10 18:39:03 you sound angry Jan 10 18:39:20 I feel that we'rw on stage "either turn to self governed foundation or die" Jan 10 18:39:33 check CSSU thread. Jan 10 18:39:44 bug with KP and repos is known for 7 months Jan 10 18:39:44 * RST38h moos Jan 10 18:39:51 now, CSSU cant release testing Jan 10 18:40:06 due to one person getting out without warning Jan 10 18:40:19 and X-Fade, aka repo maintainer Jan 10 18:40:30 lying that package can't get more than one maintainer, LOL Jan 10 18:40:33 listen, there's Nikolaus of goldelico who actually DID BUILD a free device with 3G, based on OMAP3. So what's happening now? Nobody orders them, rather *you* rant about "unbearable old hardware, only omap3", and "waaaay too expensive" though that's ~what Nikauls has to pay for the boards, without any ROI for his investment into hw and R&D Jan 10 18:41:01 That's the scary part. Jan 10 18:41:12 DocScrutinizer, how much does it cost? Jan 10 18:41:14 For small volume vendors, delays are almost inevitable. Jan 10 18:41:22 And costs are high. Jan 10 18:41:35 All this is idle talk, just contact that guy : http://www.facebook.com/people/Cedric-Jaeg/100001834473308 Jan 10 18:41:41 Leading to only a very tiny core subset of possible interested parties purchasing. Jan 10 18:41:45 Estel_: obviously you got internet - so how about finding out by yourself? Jan 10 18:41:50 He'll tell you what is available in TW for small quantity Jan 10 18:42:18 pfff Jan 10 18:42:19 DocScrutinizer, I can, but I' currently searching for legal ways of transfering Maemo to legal foundation under other name Jan 10 18:42:20 What is available is completely seperate from what is available with docs. Jan 10 18:42:28 so I though it would be faster to ask You Jan 10 18:42:34 as You seems to know already Jan 10 18:42:50 Ok ok, first things first gentleman Jan 10 18:42:56 I dont know if You would agree Jan 10 18:43:14 no, I strongly disagree Jan 10 18:43:23 "Elop: Lumia 800 hitting Microsoft retail stores in February" Jan 10 18:43:26 but IMO, maemo.org transferred to self governed foundation (after fundraising etc), with stable infrastructure Jan 10 18:43:33 OMG! Miracle! Miracle!!! Jan 10 18:43:38 would have much more momentum to design free device @ lower cost Jan 10 18:43:41 ranting and when it comes to deeds instead of words you can't even be bothered to visit the web page Jan 10 18:43:42 :-( Jan 10 18:43:43 that single random guy Jan 10 18:44:07 DocScrutinizer, You actually disagreed before readeing Jan 10 18:44:16 Doc: Allow me to do my thing Jan 10 18:44:17 about what You disagree Jan 10 18:44:20 calm down? Jan 10 18:44:29 reading* Jan 10 18:44:40 Estel: What have you contributed to the CSSU, personally? Jan 10 18:44:53 RST38h, ask CSSU devs. Jan 10 18:44:55 RST38h: what have YOU contributed? Jan 10 18:45:07 Estel: I am asking you about your contribution Jan 10 18:45:19 Definitely not code, but not everyone have to be coder in FOSS project Jan 10 18:45:20 Doc: I contributed by not bitching about it Jan 10 18:45:26 and I'm asking you why you dare to ask? Jan 10 18:45:31 Estel: So, if not code, then what? Jan 10 18:45:42 RST38h: you approach a kick Jan 10 18:45:44 Doc: See? Always works. Jan 10 18:46:22 testing, reporting bugs, suggesting fixes, suggesting features that actually did implemented etc Jan 10 18:46:23 DocScrutinizer: the problem is that nerds, even linux nerds, still like the shiny Jan 10 18:46:27 may I ask why You ask? Jan 10 18:46:59 I don't see correlation between X-fade being paid uet irresponsible Jan 10 18:47:05 with my contributions to CSSU Jan 10 18:47:25 so, if You got something worth to say, just spit it already Jan 10 18:47:44 Estel: Well, overthe last few months I have seen several people actively voicing their dissatisfaction with how CSSU release process is organized Jan 10 18:47:45 if not, IRC got nice set of ignore functions, as for few days, You're just trolling around Jan 10 18:48:08 I'm *not*Ë™ranting about CSSU Jan 10 18:48:15 Estel: These people usually seem to imply that THEY know how it is to be done Jan 10 18:48:22 actually, CSSU devs alltogether rant about X-fade Jan 10 18:48:46 Estel: So, I took a habit of asking everyone who rants about CSSU policies about his/her personal contribution to CSSU as of this day Jan 10 18:48:49 RST38h, I understabd and could agree, but it seems that You again doesn't have a clue what we're talking about Jan 10 18:49:02 my dissatisfaction with the CSSU comes from the fact that my usb port is broken so i can't risk installing pr1.3 and then cssu :( Jan 10 18:49:14 I develop a habit to have /kickban on a shortcut Jan 10 18:49:16 So, Indeed You have no clue. about what we're talking about, nor recent events Jan 10 18:49:30 Estel: If this contribution is nil, then I hope you agree that ranting appears to be out of place Jan 10 18:49:43 RST38h, You could check Yourself, but I'll enlighteen You: Jan 10 18:49:58 nope, don't do that Jan 10 18:50:05 *every*active CSSU dev is fucked up by fact, that they can't upload to testing Jan 10 18:50:23 because repos maintainer paid by Nokia isn't doing his job Jan 10 18:50:26 at all. Jan 10 18:50:29 if he doesn't bother to read last 3 months of #maemo-ssu chanlogs and continues to troll here, I simply kick him Jan 10 18:50:35 got fed up with this BS Jan 10 18:51:05 RST38h, we're on the same side with CSSU devs. X-fade and Nokika sits on the other side, if You need simple picture Jan 10 18:51:27 Ok, so X-Fade is not doing his part. What is new here? Jan 10 18:51:33 so, RST38h, Your trolling about contributions is out of place here, unfortunately Jan 10 18:51:42 new things: Jan 10 18:51:49 Estel: I have not been trolling. I have been *asking* Jan 10 18:51:59 CSSU devs consider taking CSSU to outside management system (not repos) Jan 10 18:52:06 Estel: And by the way, I have not received any definite answer from you Jan 10 18:52:16 check irc log, lol Jan 10 18:52:19 well, if the official repos suck you can just move them somewhere else Jan 10 18:52:24 ok, but Jan 10 18:52:26 officially Jan 10 18:52:31 Estel: Which is aabsolutely ok as fa as I am concerned Jan 10 18:52:37 Nokia pays for Maemo infrastructure Jan 10 18:52:49 at cost of Council having no real tools Jan 10 18:52:52 * RST38h never understood masochistic preoccupation with using "official" Nokia's infrastructure Jan 10 18:53:01 if we have to go out with CSSU Jan 10 18:53:24 why the hell shouldn't we move *all* infrastructure Jan 10 18:53:43 transit maemo.org to independent foundation (probably not under maemo name) Jan 10 18:53:50 make fundraising Jan 10 18:54:06 move content of repositories, TMO etc Jan 10 18:54:12 cut ties with Nokia Jan 10 18:54:34 and start creating things that we're able to create, considering Dcontributors and money raised Jan 10 18:54:53 tmo is already the former internettablettalk Jan 10 18:54:55 now, it seems that being tied with Nokia actually *blocks* contributions Jan 10 18:54:58 I know Jan 10 18:55:03 and not hosted by nokia Jan 10 18:55:08 but, Reggie was intervieved about that Jan 10 18:55:30 he'a not interested in hosting anything for us - even for money - if not with Nokia Jan 10 18:55:44 ho ever, he admit that TMO content belongs to community Jan 10 18:55:53 databases etc, threads, post Jan 10 18:55:56 posts* Jan 10 18:56:26 The only thing I could not write roadmap for is legal procedures of creating foundation Jan 10 18:56:35 I must admit, here I got no experience Jan 10 18:56:41 I'm also not interested where anything gets hosted, I want a proper management of permissions and roles, so not one student in IL can block the whole project Jan 10 18:56:43 in which country, and how to start Jan 10 18:56:52 DocScrutinizer, same here Jan 10 18:57:43 but, we *must* create foundation to raise money internationally *nd in legal way Jan 10 18:57:47 and* Jan 10 18:57:51 * RST38h yawns Jan 10 18:58:26 Gentlemen, what is the problem? Create a seprate repo, clone the sources, let developers commit there, start making regular releases Jan 10 18:58:43 Estel: You are saying you cannot contribute by coding. Maybe you can contribute by maintaining a repo, etc? Jan 10 18:59:43 Doc: Maybe you can contribute by maintaining a repo? Jan 10 19:02:00 no, I'm currently in the depressing situation of having to reduce my contributions, due to regular daywork eating too much of my time Jan 10 19:02:44 so I'd be a 100% clone replacement for MohammadAG Jan 10 19:02:54 incl all the problems Jan 10 19:03:09 Doc, do you want me to play Cpt Obvious here and tell you? Jan 10 19:03:20 I might consider sponsoring a server for a few months (or longer) Jan 10 19:03:28 RST38h, I actually could, after educating myself a little Jan 10 19:03:32 You do understand that whoever picks up the flag of maintaining a new repo gets to decide about policies? Jan 10 19:03:46 anyway Jan 10 19:03:54 I think to get proper momentum Jan 10 19:04:06 Estel: Yes, go educate yourself! Jan 10 19:04:08 we should coordinate moving repos and cutting ties with Nokia Jan 10 19:04:20 You can't be half virgin half pregnant Jan 10 19:04:49 anyway Jan 10 19:05:05 there is no law to force anyone to contributeor discuss about it, RST38h Jan 10 19:05:44 You realise, that despite Your philosophy, You actuallly 'contribute' rants to project of cutting ties to Nokiam and creating foundation? Jan 10 19:06:16 !list Jan 10 19:06:19 Estel: All I am doing here is stating the obvious. Jan 10 19:06:47 peppe9O: tsil! Jan 10 19:06:53 I am not ranting. I am not bitching. I do not have strong opinion on the subject. Just letting you face the reality. Jan 10 19:06:54 DocScrutinizer, despite my quite bad financial situations, I would also donate "something". I thing there are more people that could either donate, sponsor something bigger, contribute, volounteer, or mix of above Jan 10 19:07:20 RST38h, every troll say like that, but lets end this off-topic ;) Jan 10 19:07:35 And the reality is: You want to change something? Go and change it. Jan 10 19:08:01 Set up a repo, clone the sources, tell the developers, start buildingpackages on weekly basis. Jan 10 19:08:07 that's what I plan to do, instead I talk with one ranting guy on irc, which I just stopped ;) Jan 10 19:08:27 Good chap. Jan 10 19:08:35 DocScrutinizer, sitting here longer than me, do You recall someone with any legal experience? Jan 10 19:08:59 You know, the bitchy part about setting up non-profit foundation Jan 10 19:09:01 Hmm. Hans Reiser? Jan 10 19:10:18 SpeedEvil, watch out, me and charles manson likes the same ice cream Jan 10 19:10:22 SpeedEvil: Sadly, good old Hans is not with us at the moment... Jan 10 19:10:30 seriously though Jan 10 19:11:12 I'm thinking about someone currently active on maemo, if not on code side, may be even on talking task force ;) Jan 10 19:12:24 "talking task force" is a nice euphemism Jan 10 19:15:24 listen, Estel_ - there's an URL http://maemo.cloud-7.de, there's a paypal donation button ( https://www.paypal.com/cgi-bin/webscr?cmd=_s-xclick&hosted_button_id=7WZTBYALFZDJU ), and I don't see we'd need a foundation to handle those 89$US/month it needs to keep this alive but won't ever come in by donations. What's missing is a sysop that knows how to set up a repo, and maintainers who will check in new stuff, etc pp Jan 10 19:20:39 DocScrutinizer, first thing that came to my mind - we would not be allowed to use maemo name (trademark) Jan 10 19:20:46 so no go for maemo.cloud Jan 10 19:21:49 second, annual cost of maintaining infrastructure&projects - if we consider total switch from Nokia'a maemo.org could exceed ammount of money that can be raised without being legal entity Jan 10 19:22:11 that's why every serious project, start from Debian, end on LibreOffice, is foundation Jan 10 19:23:20 basically, I agree that we need knowldgeable guy to maintain repos Jan 10 19:23:30 I got a little idea Jan 10 19:23:46 will post it in "ask council" (no laughs please) later Jan 10 19:24:03 SD69is nice guy, but he won't do it all alone. Jan 10 19:24:16 different question Jan 10 19:24:58 I would like to mess with exporting X display from N900 into my linuxbox (as preparation to do same using raspberry pi as linuxbox) Jan 10 19:25:20 any iea how to properly export display with any given resolution from N900 X? Jan 10 19:25:38 Estel_: debian is not a foundation (or any other legal entity), it uses several non-profits (SPI, ffis, ...) for handling money, domains, etc. Jan 10 19:25:45 do we have everything needed on device/repos/need to install something compiled from Debian repos? Jan 10 19:26:06 gregoa, true. Jan 10 19:26:15 it's also a possible way of doing this Jan 10 19:27:39 Estel_: it won't actually work for most maemo applications, they have an hardcoded x display iirc Jan 10 19:27:54 but just export DISPLAY=yourpc:0 Jan 10 19:28:21 Even if you kil them and restart them, most don't work properly Jan 10 19:29:11 Estel_: I'm using this URL since 18 months now, and I don't think I'll see any problems with calling a subdomain of cloud-7.de maemo, as well as there won't be any problems with directories named e.g maemo5 on this site Jan 10 19:32:05 and for now projects like debian or LibreOffice have more downloads in one second than CSSU ever had, counting and adding up all from beginning until right now Jan 10 19:33:12 What was that cheap open hardware handheld? Jan 10 19:33:15 like $50 or $100? Jan 10 19:34:46 Estel_: are you overlooking the fact that Nokia owns Maemo? Jan 10 19:35:05 err wut? Jan 10 19:36:12 DocScrutinizer: didn't someone make a cheap open hardware handheld? Jan 10 19:36:15 not very powerful? Jan 10 19:37:24 luke-jr, Nokia only owns name Jan 10 19:37:50 Estel_: no, Nokia owns the copyright Jan 10 19:37:50 kerio, any way to go around thiks build-in jardcoded export Jan 10 19:38:29 luke-jr, no, it doesn't ;) Jan 10 19:38:36 Estel_: yes, they do Jan 10 19:38:41 it owns name and closed source components Jan 10 19:38:46 Estel_: you're just exposing how clueless you are Jan 10 19:38:57 Estel_: which is most of Maemo Jan 10 19:39:06 we can use and base further things on (LJGPLed stuff and similar Jan 10 19:39:13 can't agree. Jan 10 19:39:14 easier to rewrite from scratch Jan 10 19:39:29 I know, famous Nokia's repos Jan 10 19:39:42 if they woould not like to host it for N900 owners Jan 10 19:39:54 it would mean that they drop support entirely for device Jan 10 19:39:57 not system Jan 10 19:40:23 we as system doesn't need to care from where users take device specific things Jan 10 19:40:31 anyway Jan 10 19:41:00 SpeedEvil, You suggested X export display: as nice method Jan 10 19:41:06 anyway, just join the Gentoo on N900 project Jan 10 19:41:08 :P Jan 10 19:41:31 now kerio bring ups the fact that most programs got display hardcoded for N900 screen Jan 10 19:41:40 any way of getting around it? Jan 10 19:42:11 luke-jr, thanks, not interested as geento on N900 would never fulfil criteria of working components. Not that I think such projects can't exist Jan 10 19:43:50 Estel_: yeah, ok mr. clueless Jan 10 19:44:00 "never" is a big word. Jan 10 19:44:34 the hardest part is already working, and everything else is basically a matter of time Jan 10 19:46:50 luke-jr, let's just say that Your attempts to run gentoo doesn't change fact that maemo as a whole need infrastructure not related to Nokia Jan 10 19:47:00 and I'm actually interested on the latter project Jan 10 19:47:10 Estel_: Maemo as a whole *is* Nokia Jan 10 19:47:17 still being sympathetic for other Jan 10 19:48:04 Estel_: there's the issue of the indispensable closed-source parts though Jan 10 19:48:05 I don't see any reason for why maemo foundation (nder a different name, of course) could not support debian/gentoo/arch/whatever on N900, if it really is project with future Jan 10 19:48:08 firmwares and the bme Jan 10 19:48:33 kerio: BME is dispensable. Jan 10 19:48:47 but that needs proper discussing, as geento on N900 haven't get widespread interest, and I must admit I've just run through it's thread briefly Jan 10 19:48:53 so indeed I'm clueless Jan 10 19:48:57 so indeed I'm clueless about it Jan 10 19:49:04 but, first thing first Jan 10 19:49:11 lets properly organise what we have now Jan 10 19:49:31 luke-jr: is it? Jan 10 19:49:33 and then think about supporting other things like on N900, designing own device etc Jan 10 19:49:50 i thought there was still the issue that nokia has no official bl-5j data sheet Jan 10 19:50:01 kerio: also, the only problematic firmware afaik is the Bluetooth Jan 10 19:50:14 everything else has an OSS replacement or is OSS already? Jan 10 19:50:16 :o Jan 10 19:50:27 kerio: no, everything else is unnecessary Jan 10 19:50:29 err Jan 10 19:50:35 every other firmware is OSS/replacable Jan 10 19:50:47 other being at least wifi and cameras Jan 10 19:51:25 camera? Jan 10 19:51:29 really? :o Jan 10 19:51:38 oh, with fcam? Jan 10 19:52:04 with or without Jan 10 19:52:20 https://gitorious.org/omap3camera Jan 10 20:07:17 luke-jr, btw, if You say that geento on N900 is so complete, does same apply for debian or arch linux, using same components that geento use to talk with N900 hardware parts, instead of Nokia binary blobs? Jan 10 20:10:43 SpeedEvil, ping? Jan 10 20:11:08 Estel_: the guy porting Debian is not using the same components Jan 10 20:12:55 ok, but I'm talking about possibilities, not existing solutions Jan 10 20:13:21 theoretically, instead of using bloated gentoo, we can take arch linux, and achieve the same, yep? Jan 10 20:13:44 (gentoo bloated < than debian, >than arch) Jan 10 20:54:59 i apt-get upgraded my debian, and org always blackscreens on launch Jan 10 20:55:14 0 bytes in Xorg.0.log. only the 2.6.37 meego kernel from the rescueOS guy ever booted properly into a pre-X terminal Jan 10 20:55:20 switched back to maemo becuse it f'n works Jan 10 20:55:50 couldnt get the TS_calibrate thing working right (it did 2 years ago) either, despite fixing up the /dev/input paths so they matched what dmesg/xorg.log was saying Jan 10 20:56:02 did you have better luck luke-jr? Jan 10 20:56:28 considering maemo uses dbus, pulseaudio, xorg, all the *normal* linux stuff, i have no real incentive to switch to something less polished Jan 10 20:56:48 i mean how many ppl did Nokia employ tto smooth out all sorts of little irritating issues? for how many years? we're praobly talking a 200 million doollar investment Jan 10 20:57:06 burro: pulseaudio isn't normal, it's crap Jan 10 20:57:09 heh Jan 10 20:57:11 i prefe rjackd Jan 10 20:57:23 but at least it gracefully handles call-audo-routing and switching off mediaplayer temporarily etc Jan 10 20:57:23 no idea why you have so much trouble :P Jan 10 20:57:38 i followed both rescueOS and pancake guy's guides Jan 10 20:57:46 and have 15 years of experience fixing linux systems Jan 10 20:57:47 and a ton of stuff is stil broken Jan 10 20:57:50 on play debian on n900 Jan 10 20:58:00 if its so simple, point me to something that actualy works Jan 10 20:58:12 even the rescueOS guy sys the latest vanila kernel simply doesnt work, and my results seem to jibe with that Jan 10 20:58:22 its even mroe fundamental than missing drivers, like interrupt/hw/bootup issue of some sort Jan 10 20:58:43 burro, totally agree Jan 10 20:59:09 thats why I'm sceptical about ideas of using yeah Jan 10 20:59:26 anyway, luke-jr, You haven"t answered my question about gentoo on N900 ;) Jan 10 20:59:33 with a bit of LD_LIBRARY_PATH you don even need a chroot Jan 10 20:59:57 i wouldnt midn switching back to Illume/E17 on debian ,but i simply couldnt Jan 10 20:59:58 burro: I don't use Debian, I use Gentoo. Jan 10 21:00:11 couldnt even get X launching/configured right, with the 1 kernel that at least booted to a login prompt Jan 10 21:00:12 burro, if You manage to rewrite ED to not being chrot and retain funcionality, I'll bless You Jan 10 21:00:16 luke-jr: and which kernel? Jan 10 21:00:26 i use Arch Linux on my destops Jan 10 21:00:27 burro: power49 currently Jan 10 21:00:36 frankly, since it has binaries for everything, i prefer it to gentoo Jan 10 21:00:39 gnetoo is nice on 8-core boxes Jan 10 21:00:44 I would also preffer arch linux on N900 over bloated geento Jan 10 21:00:45 or with a distcc/binpkg setup Jan 10 21:00:56 Estel_: haha, idiot. Gentoo is the opposite of bloated. Jan 10 21:01:03 burro: yes, I use distcc Jan 10 21:01:05 luke-jr: thats 2.6.28, maemo's kernel Jan 10 21:01:11 vanilla has a different API for the drivers that got rolled in Jan 10 21:01:13 luke-jr, first of all, mind Your language Jan 10 21:01:18 so , normal linux stuff will have all sorts of issues running on an old kernel like that Jan 10 21:01:19 second, bloated is relative Jan 10 21:01:22 I could boot (and use) into a debian sid, illume/e17, so it works. It's possible. Jan 10 21:01:28 You sounds like plain geento fanboy, IMO Jan 10 21:01:30 Estel_: don't like being called an idiot, stop acting like one Jan 10 21:01:48 burro: no, normal Linux stuff still works fine with 2.6.28 Jan 10 21:01:54 geento isn't bloated relative to debian or ubuntu, but is heelish bloated relative to arch linux Jan 10 21:02:01 evne FM radio, GPS, battery? Jan 10 21:02:06 if i cant use 100% of the hardware im not interested Jan 10 21:02:09 and if You like to act like 15 years old fanboy, do so. Jan 10 21:02:13 only way that was possible was 3.2 linux with 3 git-repos Jan 10 21:02:21 burro: none of those are normal Linux stuff Jan 10 21:02:26 for experiemental/unifnihsed drivers Jan 10 21:02:40 burro: battery currently requires a small shell script Jan 10 21:02:48 burro: GPS, I need to finish writing the gpsd driver Jan 10 21:02:50 yeah, ive run E17 and panacke's i2cset script Jan 10 21:03:01 FM radio, isn't anywhere near the top of my list Jan 10 21:04:05 btw, http://funroll-loops.info/gentoo.jpg Jan 10 21:04:33 #gentoo-n900 empty,, is there a wiki, forum what? Jan 10 21:05:48 ARM is prety fragmented and highly-evolving it didnt shock me so much HW/driver stuff was broken Jan 10 21:06:07 but Debian still uses i386 dont they? they love supporting the oldest/most-compatible arch Jan 10 21:06:10 so im not really loking forward to 5x the tweaking to get gentoo going Jan 10 21:06:40 um Jan 10 21:06:45 instead of just learning something wont run, i get to wait 3 hours for it to compile on ARM first :) Jan 10 21:06:50 or go setup some cross-compile setup Jan 10 21:06:58 I use arch linux, but when it comes to which is most bloated, arch sure is more bloat then gentoo...? Jan 10 21:07:05 how so? Jan 10 21:07:16 define "bloat" Jan 10 21:07:19 not really interested in an arch vs gentoo vs ubuntu war Jan 10 21:07:27 point me to a wiki that explains GEntoo on n900 i will try it Jan 10 21:07:32 cuz ,debiian didn twork to well on latest-sid for wahtever reasons Jan 10 21:07:32 neihter am I Jan 10 21:07:42 but ^ was @ Estel_ Jan 10 21:08:14 wmarone: most things included from start Jan 10 21:08:29 which means? Jan 10 21:08:49 nothing is included Jan 10 21:09:05 except some crap in /bin and a pacakage manager really Jan 10 21:09:27 so the mutt binary on debian/arch proably has --with-imap Jan 10 21:09:37 and on gentoo you get to nano /etc/package.conf and USE=imap or something Jan 10 21:09:47 just to save 12K in a binary and 2 seconds of compile time, yet spend 3x as long configuring it Jan 10 21:09:55 FIQ, in arch You shouldn't get almost anything from start Jan 10 21:10:07 I'm not in war between linux distros lol Jan 10 21:10:15 True, but with Gentoo, I though you got nothing at all :D Jan 10 21:10:19 Never used gentoo for myself Jan 10 21:10:48 this picture was only to irritate luke-jr a little - who act like fanboy without any meritocratic arguments and goes to insult on first sign of being arguments-less Jan 10 21:11:10 anyway Jan 10 21:11:11 due to being all-source, Genteoo is sometimes like, a few days ahead of sid Jan 10 21:11:12 but not much Jan 10 21:11:22 i doubt some significant N900-hardware-related-fixes are only avilable ote gentoo users Jan 10 21:11:29 for vanila kernel and various apps Jan 10 21:11:32 it's all based on debian this way of another Jan 10 21:11:45 its a matter of incentive, if someone paid me to fix vanilla issues with n900 i would. but who is gonna do that? Jan 10 21:11:48 so i'll just use maeo Jan 10 21:11:53 burro: Gentoo works fine with power kernel Jan 10 21:11:55 it would be pretty romantic story. Except for a part, that Debian still exist, and their marriage doesn't Jan 10 21:12:08 well, it *is* romantic somehow Jan 10 21:12:09 burro: upgrading the kernel is not in itself a priority yet on N900 Jan 10 21:12:12 seriously though Jan 10 21:12:18 ok, but i use Maep and FM-tuner and camera almost exclusively Jan 10 21:12:19 and i have a feeling at least 1 of those is broken, i'll give it a shot tho Jan 10 21:12:23 hmm, when it comes to the power kernel Jan 10 21:12:41 I tried to install uboot-power to get uboot *and* the power kernel, but failed due to broken dependicies Jan 10 21:12:52 as uboot-power depends on an outdated version of the power kernel Jan 10 21:12:53 I'm now mostly interested in a woking way to Export X display from N900 Jan 10 21:13:12 how do i solve that? :p Jan 10 21:13:14 considering the fact, that most thing gots it hardcoded to N900 screen Jan 10 21:13:15 you can build uboot from git Jan 10 21:13:32 burro, with all Your linux-related knowledge Jan 10 21:13:34 see http://atrey.karlin.mff.cuni.cz/~pali/u-boot.txt and http://gitorious.org/u-boot-shr/u-boot Jan 10 21:13:40 uh, i'd rather not, then I prefer the usual kernel Jan 10 21:13:50 any way, to effectively export N900 (maemo) display with any set resolution Jan 10 21:13:54 over compiling my own version of u-boot Jan 10 21:13:57 Estel_: git on Maemo didnt even clone gitorious properly Jan 10 21:13:58 to listen for it on other linuxbox? Jan 10 21:14:00 so i had to instal a chroot just for git Jan 10 21:14:08 the divergence of vanilla *is* annoying from maemo Jan 10 21:14:15 which is why im semi-interested in getting off of it eventualy Jan 10 21:14:29 pulseaudio-network wont talk to modern pulseaudio on netbook due to version changes etc Jan 10 21:14:30 probably agreed, but I'm asking about slightly different topic ;) Jan 10 21:14:42 can you not export DISPLAY=remotehost:0 and launch a maemo app? Jan 10 21:15:34 got problems and one guy here said, that most programs on maemo got it hardcoded to point into N900 screen Jan 10 21:16:00 the idea is to develop a most hassle-free method, that I can later use with USB networking to Raspberry Pi Jan 10 21:16:01 weak Jan 10 21:16:05 so youd have to recompile the progs Jan 10 21:16:14 to export whole display to Pi Jan 10 21:16:20 and then, using Pi HDMI Jan 10 21:16:23 to screen Jan 10 21:16:35 = workaround for lack of DVI/VGA out in N900 Jan 10 21:16:42 hpefully Samsung drops a phone w HDMI that runs normal debian Jan 10 21:16:48 as a side-effect of tha tTizen thing Jan 10 21:16:52 would not count on that Jan 10 21:16:52 which frankly doesnt loook any more vanilla than Maemo Jan 10 21:17:09 im sure itll have all sorts of obnoxious dbus crap and forekd versions and propreitary firmwares Jan 10 21:17:12 same old.. Jan 10 21:17:25 ok, to be honest I'm total noob when it comes to exporting X - seriously Jan 10 21:17:26 *if* they ever ditch ANdroid Jan 10 21:17:34 theres some shell script that runs i believe Jan 10 21:17:40 to setup environment vars feor maemo apps, widget kits etc Jan 10 21:18:00 I open xterm as root, and do what? Jan 10 21:18:08 it may be overriding your DISPLAY options Jan 10 21:18:17 im somewhat skeptical they hardcoeded DISPLAY into binaries, but maybe tey did Jan 10 21:18:21 I would like to filter other possible issues with exportind display Jan 10 21:18:25 including user error Jan 10 21:18:35 brb, disabling -nolisten Jan 10 21:18:44 thanks Jan 10 21:18:59 I'm also sceptical about hardcoding display into binaries Jan 10 21:18:59 ps aux | grep X on your desktop Jan 10 21:19:04 maybe sure "-nolisten" is not there Jan 10 21:19:05 can't imagine sane reason to do so Jan 10 21:19:06 it is by defaut Jan 10 21:19:11 then type xhost + Jan 10 21:19:14 to make sure n900 can connect Jan 10 21:19:23 otherwise it will revert back to maemo's display Jan 10 21:19:30 or error out Jan 10 21:19:59 wait, although I understand what You mean, I'm lost in chronology Jan 10 21:20:00 Estel_: They are not generally hardcoded - they just don't work over the network, but require shared local memory in many cases Jan 10 21:20:19 heh forgot about SHM Jan 10 21:20:25 oh, and here I don't have a clue what it means ;) Jan 10 21:20:34 MIT X_SHM server extension or something Jan 10 21:20:39 you cant share memory between machines :) Jan 10 21:20:48 you can Jan 10 21:20:51 oh Jan 10 21:20:51 but it's complex Jan 10 21:20:56 SpeedEvil, so given the fact that I'm trying to test exporting display with my desktop linuxbox Jan 10 21:20:57 advanced topic ;) Jan 10 21:21:11 try an xterm Jan 10 21:21:14 or xeyes :) Jan 10 21:21:16 how the heel should I getting started Jan 10 21:21:28 googling for exporting X wasn't very productive Jan 10 21:21:45 ive exported *To* phone no probs Jan 10 21:21:48 using it as a sor tof remote-control Jan 10 21:21:49 exporting X? forwarding it? Jan 10 21:21:57 ssh can usualy gett around nolisten, it hink Jan 10 21:21:59 ssh -X Jan 10 21:22:07 check /etc/sshd_config and enable X forwarding Jan 10 21:22:19 X-forwarding have worked fine for me computer-->N900 Jan 10 21:22:25 so, jumping in without checking backlog: /etc/profile on maemo5 does export DISPLAY=:0 Jan 10 21:22:32 the opposite way has not been as trivial Jan 10 21:22:35 which screws up most attempts to use ssh X forwarding Jan 10 21:22:41 IIRC Jan 10 21:23:06 iirc i managed to forward fennec as a test one time Jan 10 21:23:25 don't remember how i did, but pretty much every application failed Jan 10 21:23:53 I think I managed it once? after sudo apt-get install xauth from the SDK repo and an explicit DISPLAY=:9 or something like that Jan 10 21:24:05 I've forgotten the specifics, just remember the pain Jan 10 21:24:13 i've given up :D Jan 10 21:24:55 Yea, I know this project would at some point require someone much more experienced than me ;) anyway, someone must start to try it hard way... Jan 10 21:25:23 mgedmin - generally it's idea about using Raspberry Pi Jan 10 21:25:41 as credit card sized 25$ linuxbox with HDMI and USB Jan 10 21:25:51 to export N900 display via usb networking Jan 10 21:25:56 get it on Pi Jan 10 21:26:01 and use it's HDMI Jan 10 21:26:18 to get - via this workaround - fully functional HDMI output for N900 Jan 10 21:26:21 so you want the N900's screen on a TV? Jan 10 21:26:33 why not use the included A/V cable ;) Jan 10 21:26:42 with added benefit of Pi that can be also used as USB to LAN or plentora other things Jan 10 21:26:53 first of all, monitor, not TV Jan 10 21:27:00 second, AV cable is PAL max Jan 10 21:27:18 horrible qu!ity to use for bowser or LibreOffice or EasyDebian or whatever Jan 10 21:27:32 I travel with N900, small usb mini-keyboard, bluetooth mouse Jan 10 21:27:39 hostmode ;) Jan 10 21:27:42 third, N900's dinky CPU/graphics chip/and especially the memory channel to the LCD controller can barely handle 800x480 Jan 10 21:27:53 and last thning lacking for 100% portable computer in pocket Jan 10 21:28:03 is good quality video out, vga or DVI Jan 10 21:28:06 and Pi is insufficient? Jan 10 21:28:16 as the portable computer? Jan 10 21:28:25 N900 got better performance in many aspects Jan 10 21:28:43 I wonder how much it can do -- IIRC I recently saw a Pi running xbmc on a HDTV Jan 10 21:28:47 on youtube Jan 10 21:29:05 Pi can achieve many thnings but it's performance vary depending on usage Jan 10 21:29:21 closed broadcom SoC can achieve awesome hings in one aspect Jan 10 21:29:37 closed? Jan 10 21:29:45 in what sense? Jan 10 21:29:49 and be fail in another, that should require similar or lower ammount of resources Jan 10 21:29:54 in every sense :P Jan 10 21:30:05 firmware, drivers etc Jan 10 21:30:13 Pi boot using GPU Jan 10 21:30:24 it load something and bootloader from SD card Jan 10 21:30:34 MPU gets alive after GPU Jan 10 21:30:37 anyway Jan 10 21:31:02 lets focus on current scenario, which include achieving external display of N900 via pi - real display, not remote desktop Jan 10 21:31:39 You know, when I got somewhere a 1280x900 monitor, I could use it with native resolution from N900. In theory ;) Jan 10 21:31:48 hmm Jan 10 21:31:55 * SpeedEvil looks at Tizen announce on /. Jan 10 21:32:09 BTW, regular N900 resolution is 800x480, but downscalling to PAL or NTSC makes effect even worse Jan 10 21:32:33 BTW, one guy proposed to use remaining USB networking bandwidth Jan 10 21:32:41 20-25 MB/s Jan 10 21:32:52 to use Pi RAM as faster swap for N900 Jan 10 21:33:02 no idea if it's really useful in practice Jan 10 21:33:18 http://mobile.slashdot.org/story/11/12/12/2033227/tizen-webos-the-future-of-mobile-open-source this? Jan 10 21:33:19 @ SpeedEvil Jan 10 21:33:23 but it shows that N900 in tandem with Pi can get some exciting new features Jan 10 21:33:36 FIQ: no Jan 10 21:33:44 oh well Jan 10 21:33:48 Oh yea, counting until Tizen get killed started? Jan 10 21:33:56 http://linux.slashdot.org/story/12/01/10/2031238/tizen-source-code-released Jan 10 21:34:26 So, SpeedEvil, mgedmin and other knowledgeable ones Jan 10 21:34:44 Could You point me into how to start experimenting with exporting this display properly? Jan 10 21:34:53 i'm still lost a little Jan 10 21:35:00 I wouldn't know where to start! Jan 10 21:35:07 what do you mean "export a display" and "non-remotely"? Jan 10 21:35:14 solder a VGA/HDMI socket onto the N900? Jan 10 21:35:25 not possible, in my opinion Jan 10 21:35:29 properly. I haven't used "non-reemotely" Jan 10 21:36:06 'real display, not remote desktop' Jan 10 21:36:06 erm, I'm still thinking about exporting via X export display to pi... Jan 10 21:36:16 remote desktop = VNC etc Jan 10 21:36:21 ah Jan 10 21:36:22 It's not possible to do right. Jan 10 21:36:25 real display = X display Jan 10 21:36:35 " Jan 10 21:36:41 Most of the apps on the n900 - at least teh builtin binary ones - require shared memory Jan 10 21:36:47 wait, wait, not possible in which sense Jan 10 21:36:48 sorry.. was amused by MeeGo and its descendants have been a huge clusterfuck, Maemo has a nice working desktop environment and is the closest to a regular desktop Linux distro underneath. The best thing to do as a next step would have been to bring it even closer to a standard Linux distro, maybe base it on Debian ARM and put Maemo's desktop and apps on top. Jan 10 21:36:49 hm Jan 10 21:37:11 SpeedEvil, no workarounds? Jan 10 21:37:23 maybe we can achieve shared memory somehow? ;) Jan 10 21:37:27 Estel_: In principle, you could write a shim-zserver Jan 10 21:37:46 mgedmin mentioned using something from SDK to avoid shared mem requiment Jan 10 21:37:55 VNC is trivial to do hwoever Jan 10 21:37:56 no I did not Jan 10 21:38:00 you just apt-get install x11vnc Jan 10 21:38:03 and lauch it Jan 10 21:38:07 I'm using vnc for ages Jan 10 21:38:40 SpeedEvil, write shim-zserver = use something existing and modify, or wfrite something from scratch? Jan 10 21:39:20 remember, You're talking to non-coder (well, I'm actually learning slowly how to code basic things) Jan 10 21:39:48 I would love to leave this project for more experienced ones and wait for ready to use results, but it's not that easy;) Jan 10 21:40:02 thats why I had to move my a** and bugy You all here on IRC Jan 10 21:41:06 as creating HDMI output for N900 via Pi + other benefits from using it in tandem with N900 is too great thing to abandon it Jan 10 21:41:19 unless there is really no achievable/feasible method Jan 10 21:41:36 A xserver thjat supports shared memory, and fakes it to another xserver over the link Jan 10 21:41:57 its going to be painful and slow Jan 10 21:42:03 how about a 25 dollar ATom board.. Jan 10 21:42:06 undrstood. Whats the catch? Jan 10 21:42:08 and just use that on HDMI when you nee dit Jan 10 21:42:29 youre going to have 2 maxed-out ARM devices screaming in pain shuttlin around pixels and memory Jan 10 21:42:34 or one pretty fast Atom Jan 10 21:42:41 SpeedEvil, such xserver would be troublesome to implement for N900? Jan 10 21:43:27 burro, I think VNC is more screaming pain (bandwidth and compression) Jan 10 21:43:33 i donno Jan 10 21:43:40 on slow DSL i used to get better results wiht VNC than X Jan 10 21:43:43 "if you nail a goat to a horse, you won't need to buy a car!" Jan 10 21:43:43 perhaps due to roundtrip latency? Jan 10 21:43:49 also, I don't know any 25$ atom board comparable to N900 features Jan 10 21:43:50 plus, X apps love to just crash/disappear Jan 10 21:43:53 if versions slightly mismatch anywhere Jan 10 21:43:57 or the SHM Stuff is missing etc Jan 10 21:44:08 hm Jan 10 21:45:59 can you export data instead of GUIs? Jan 10 21:46:03 eg with rsync, nfs, dropbox, whatever Jan 10 21:46:53 samba, webserver+webdav/post, etc Jan 10 21:47:05 theres a ton of ways to integrate a Maemo device w/ a network compared to most mobile OSes Jan 10 21:48:54 does N9 have HDMI out? can that run Maemo? etc Jan 10 21:50:33 a single device for everything w/ HDMI would be nice. but imo a netbook + n900 is less annoying than 2 weak ARM dongles + A ton of hacked SHM stuff Jan 10 21:51:08 at least until 2-3 years when Tizen kils android, and even Nokia gets in the game, hehehehe Jan 10 21:51:11 Jan 10 21:51:33 tizen sounds like yet another regression :) Jan 10 21:51:37 N9 has no HDMI out Jan 10 21:51:50 perosnally i run an HTTP server on my n900, and access 'webmail' from whatever netbook/ipad is around Jan 10 21:51:51 would be fun to watch nokia REJOIN a project derived of something they left Jan 10 21:52:55 if HP is any indicator. theyll announce/abandon a few strategies a year Jan 10 21:53:14 aybe the Win Phone thing was just a temporary troll from Elop Jan 10 21:54:05 has anyone gotten vanila Debian/Arch/Gentoo running smoothly on any modern phone w/ HDMI out? Jan 10 21:54:15 i remember 2004-era HTCs could run debian+matchbox or something, havent investigated lately Jan 10 23:24:43 DocScrutinizer, lets say that Maemo is going to start process of moving repositories to open source git servers tommorow Jan 10 23:25:11 is Your idea about donating server for that purpose (for few months) actual? Jan 10 23:25:32 I think it would be more than enough time, to properly fundraise money Jan 10 23:30:34 Maemo is dead. Jan 10 23:30:41 yawn Jan 10 23:30:52 luke-jr: link me the gentoo "howto n900" page already Jan 10 23:30:58 burro: don't have one. Jan 10 23:31:11 so, is there a portage binary for armel i can grab Jan 10 23:31:18 burro: yes Jan 10 23:31:20 i prefer Paludis over Portage, btw Jan 10 23:31:25 back when i had fast CPUs Jan 10 23:31:33 last I checked, Paludis didn't work on non-x86 Jan 10 23:31:39 http://distfiles.gentoo.org/releases/arm/autobuilds/current-stage3-armv7a_hardfp/ <-- stage3 Jan 10 23:31:45 k Jan 10 23:31:56 i tried Ekiga, and Ekiga-lite Jan 10 23:31:59 http://luke.dashjr.org/programs/gentoo-n900/packages/hardfp/gcc45/ <-- binpkgs Jan 10 23:32:08 both had all sorts of idiotic SIP related errors. yet Maemo's SIP works perfect in comparison Jan 10 23:32:15 http://luke.dashjr.org/programs/gentoo-n900/kernels/ <-- various kernels Jan 10 23:32:19 i kind of appreciate all the polish that went into Maemo Jan 10 23:32:25 after futzing around with e17/debian for a bit Jan 10 23:32:59 be sure to add the n900 overlay too Jan 10 23:33:11 wheres the IRC channel, so i dont have to clog this one with off topic Jan 10 23:33:20 was it #gentoo-embedded or something Jan 10 23:33:28 it's not usually considered off topic here, but #gentoo-embedded is fine too Jan 10 23:33:40 well, as far as Maemo apps Jan 10 23:33:45 is all the GTK customizations in maemo open source Jan 10 23:33:50 id like to reuse some of the apps, if possible Jan 10 23:34:03 burro: pretty sure they have to be Jan 10 23:34:22 burro: no idea, I don't use GTK apps Jan 10 23:34:45 most non-browser apps i use are GTK, maemo or other OS Jan 10 23:34:57 so i like Maemo's choice of GTK over Tizen's EFL.. Jan 10 23:35:03 evne if enlightenment is "cool" Jan 10 23:35:30 its still not clear if end-developers/users will be able to build EFL or X apps on Tizen anyways Jan 10 23:35:38 the API seems to be "use HTML5, with soem WAC standard" Jan 10 23:35:41 so WebOS all over again Jan 10 23:36:43 and JAvascript is pretty damn slow on ARM so not sure what theyre smoking Jan 10 23:37:39 Wizzup: its more the interconnected nature of everything, by the time DBus is interacting with the apps the right way, youve recreated most of maemo Jan 10 23:37:44 it's pretty damn slow everywhere? Jan 10 23:38:46 and some of the lower DBus / telephony layers are definitely not open source, so who knows how much of the apps or services you would have to rewrite Jan 10 23:38:49 just to get a few lousy apps that proably have alternatives Jan 10 23:40:47 ShadowJK: the latest revisions of twiwtter/google are slow even on my Atom at 2x2ghz Jan 10 23:40:54 so presumably a phone with less horsepower is not going to be too pleasant Jan 10 23:41:06 unless using some "App" version which is either stripped down, or written in Obj-C Jan 10 23:41:41 burro: I do have telephony basically working Jan 10 23:41:48 interesting Jan 10 23:41:51 Ofno i guess Jan 10 23:41:57 yes Jan 10 23:41:58 1.0 Jan 10 23:43:25 and GTK/Matchbox for uI, Illume+E17 or what? Jan 10 23:43:46 someone said XFCE isnt too bad, im kinda skeptical though Jan 10 23:45:43 I use KDE 4.7 Jan 10 23:47:12 hah Jan 10 23:49:16 well, it seems that just like with motorcars, linux also must have some tune-fanatic, wheel smoking fanboys, in form of gentoo *yawn* Jan 10 23:49:44 Estel_: just because you're clueless doesn't make everyone else a fanboy Jan 10 23:49:55 I apreciatte every effort of running Debian/arch/whatever on Maemo Jan 10 23:50:16 but first of all, it isn't opposite to putting maemo repos into open source git server Jan 10 23:50:25 so.. KDE libs, QT libs.. tons of daemons just so i can launch/switch apps? Jan 10 23:50:32 so, no need to troll around this concept (directed at luke-jr ) Jan 10 23:50:37 burro: hey, it's lighter than Maemo ;) Jan 10 23:50:39 ive seen hype about "Plasma Active" or whatever Jan 10 23:50:41 true Jan 10 23:51:00 someone hacked dwm to support n900 Jan 10 23:51:11 and, personally, I would belive in any 100% usable arch/gentoo/*whatever on N900 only when I see it Jan 10 23:51:54 Plasma is damn slow due to inability of accelerating, while plasma literally begs for it or works like a mule Jan 10 23:52:28 anyone saying binary blobs afren't problem is either incompetient or liar Jan 10 23:52:47 ...unless hes coding genius that hacked everything, which I doubt in case of luke-jr Jan 10 23:53:16 Of course everyone is free to waste time on whatever concept she/he want, so eot from my side, I promise ;) Jan 11 00:38:50 why im stickin with Maemo Jan 11 00:38:56 sick of wasting my time tweakin crap out Jan 11 00:39:03 sure its a bit bloated. sure its a bit of an old snapshot of debian with a few proprietary bits Jan 11 00:39:17 but Android? iOS? Are you serious Jan 11 00:43:12 burro: "meego" harmattan ;) Jan 11 00:43:19 aegis ftw **** ENDING LOGGING AT Wed Jan 11 02:59:57 2012