**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Mon Mar 12 02:59:58 2012 Mar 12 06:59:41 moo Mar 12 07:49:52 hm Mar 12 07:50:14 i really need to make a mencoder script to encode stuff for my transformer Mar 12 07:50:26 even if this transformer totally sucks Mar 12 07:50:39 it is buggy a hell Mar 12 12:06:03 has anyone here bought a replacement battery for their old N810 Mar 12 12:06:21 I want to use it to just check on zoneminder and check email Mar 12 12:06:53 I had 4 new batteries so far, and they all make the device make funny noises Mar 12 12:06:56 like clicking Mar 12 12:07:05 as if something is shorting Mar 12 12:07:14 yet the old battery works fine, it just dies Mar 12 12:07:45 I am starting to get the funny feeling that all the batteries on amazon are fake Mar 12 12:16:19 the flashing tools have got to be the most unsable collection of crap I've ever seen Mar 12 12:16:46 nokia updater works on windows, but doesn't flash emmc (or if it does, it restores a backup right after, which is not intended) Mar 12 12:17:04 flasher-3.5 does not work on 64bit versions of windows 7 Mar 12 12:17:29 MacFlasher (3.12) gives an error because apparently it's a harmattan version Mar 12 12:17:49 flasher-3.5 for OSX gives a timeout error Mar 12 12:17:53 @concept - i have flashed my N900 on all 3 platforms successfully Mar 12 12:18:01 they do suck though, i'll give you that Mar 12 12:18:14 on linux, they work like shit on an x86-64 distro Mar 12 12:18:17 710flasher is a ppc app Mar 12 12:18:29 yeah, I was getting to that Mar 12 12:18:46 on windows, rd flagging apparently does jack Mar 12 12:19:41 flasher-3.5 for linux is a 32bit bin linked to 32bit libraries, and when run on a 32bit system gives me a "No such file or directory" error while attempting to claim the USB interface (from within a VM) Mar 12 12:21:00 I'm really running out of options now, the next thing I'm gonna try is to boot a gentoo livecd on my mac with a flash drive connected with all the necessary files and hope that it works that way Mar 12 12:21:13 usb forwarding is crap on all platforms, sure as f*** wouldn't trust that to flash my stuff Mar 12 12:21:30 and btw, i prefer using macflasher to flash my N900 Mar 12 12:21:38 It only flashes emmc when you flash it with emmc image, and I don't understand what you meant by restore functionality, there are none. It just wipes it clean back to how it was from manufacturer Mar 12 12:22:12 osx - no need to worry about 32 or 64 bit atm, can set rd flags, no need to worry about drivers because libusb handles it nicely Mar 12 12:22:29 psycho_oreos: well, all my files were still there after flashing with nokia updater on windows; also, how do you specify an emmc images with that? Mar 12 12:22:47 Hurrian: macflasher gives me a timeout error Mar 12 12:23:43 anyways, the concept of a desktop side flasher that does nothing but send images to nolo is a joke Mar 12 12:23:54 you seriously DO NOT need that Mar 12 12:23:59 concept, I don't use nokia updater with windows, in fact I　don't run windows on any of my machines. Therefore I　never really ran into that issue, I find it a little funny those with windows and using it to communicate with a linux device Mar 12 12:24:25 nokia could've taken the thing that routers use to take images over tftp and embed that into a mini-phonet in nolo Mar 12 12:24:36 Error claiming USB interface: Operation timed out Mar 12 12:24:44 I get a lot of this from MacFlasher Mar 12 12:24:55 it needs sudo Mar 12 12:25:16 which I used Mar 12 12:25:16 oh and that Mar 12 12:25:36 nokia, y u need root access for a damn flasher Mar 12 12:26:21 imo that has nothing to do with nokia, not that I'm defending them, but under linux, one cannot access to raw sockets for some reason or even raw devices Mar 12 12:28:04 http://pastebin.com/XEGjVy05 Mar 12 12:28:13 that is what I get from macflasher Mar 12 12:28:56 http://www.libusb.org/wiki/FAQ Mar 12 12:29:15 it is currently sitting on my desk with the backlight turned off, the nokia logo, and the USB icon in the top-right corner Mar 12 12:29:56 I did not have to install anything for macflasher, other than the package itself Mar 12 12:30:29 @concept, you need to use the N900 flasher Mar 12 12:30:33 hmm, that says harmattan Mar 12 12:30:40 I've tried that too Mar 12 12:30:56 output pl0x Mar 12 12:30:58 on the wiki they referred it as 770flasher Mar 12 12:31:13 [12:25] nokia, y u need root access for a damn flasher Mar 12 12:31:17 that is a linux issue Mar 12 12:31:39 psycho_oreos: 770flasher is a ppc app Mar 12 12:32:34 @LinuxCode, libusb devs say root access is not required to run a libusb program, it's just needed to install a udev rule Mar 12 12:32:57 yes Mar 12 12:32:58 I think I'm just going to try the next safest option Mar 12 12:33:00 I know that Mar 12 12:33:03 its permissions Mar 12 12:33:07 which is to bootcamp a 32bit windows 7 Mar 12 12:33:11 it is not the flashers fault Mar 12 12:33:21 although they probably hard coded that in Mar 12 12:34:10 concept, I assumed you tried either:　maemo_flasher-3.5_2.5.2.2_i386.dmg or maemo_flasher-3.5_2.5.2.2_ppc.dmg?　I　don't know which mac (let alone year model) you have Mar 12 12:34:37 psycho_oreos: the former, yes, it doesn't even install a binary Mar 12 12:34:45 although it does install a manpage Mar 12 12:35:14 so I kinda have a flasher-3.5 manpage without the accompanying flasher-3.5 binary installed Mar 12 12:36:18 concept, are you able to query the package for its contents? I know under debian (or other linux distributions having capability to read deb files) that you can query the package for its contents, both installed and the package itself Mar 12 12:36:26 I did eventually find the flasher-3.5 binary somewhere ysterday in a temporary directory, ran it, and it required libusb installed, so I compiled that, ran it again, and it gave me the exact same timeout error that I pasted from flasher 3.12 earlier Mar 12 12:36:44 psycho_oreos: yes Mar 12 12:37:51 concept, ideally you shouldn't have used flasher 3.12. That's noted to only work with harmattan devices (notabley N950/n9) Mar 12 12:38:19 oh actually no, it is an installer Mar 12 12:38:25 I wonder if you can pastebin the output of that, surely the binary has to be installed somewhere.. I can't see how or why it would install without the actual binary Mar 12 12:38:55 psycho_oreos: I believe it is not compatible with lion Mar 12 12:39:26 because the temporary files that I found were inside directories named 10.5 and 10.6 Mar 12 12:40:00 I still have those files Mar 12 12:40:53 concept, not that I know but I'm sure in theory you maybe able to get away using 10.6. Though it is partially nokia's fault for being anal and giving people binary blobs which makes life rather awkward especially when the idea of `one suit fits all' doesn't really apply here Mar 12 12:42:24 I've tried 10.6 before Mar 12 12:42:39 no luck? what about 10.5? Mar 12 12:43:35 oh go Mar 12 12:43:37 +d Mar 12 12:43:46 it requires an old version of libusb Mar 12 12:43:49 sonames don't match Mar 12 12:44:02 I installed libusb from the sources yesterday but didn't notice this at the time Mar 12 12:51:27 what the? Mar 12 12:51:30 i flash with 10.7 Mar 12 12:51:38 using what? Mar 12 12:51:45 the N900 flasher Mar 12 12:51:59 use pacifist to extract the files, put them in manually Mar 12 12:52:08 libusb just werks Mar 12 12:52:19 not here Mar 12 12:52:30 unless you installed an older version for whatever reason Mar 12 12:52:49 weird. it could be because i'm running a hackintosh, though Mar 12 12:53:16 prolly somewhere in the fact that i didnt enable USB suspend in dsdt Mar 12 12:53:31 core:10.6 jps$ sudo ./flasher-3.5 Mar 12 12:53:31 Password: Mar 12 12:53:31 dyld: Library not loaded: /usr/local/lib/libusb-0.1.4.dylib Mar 12 12:53:31 Referenced from: /private/tmp/pc-connectivity-bin/10.6/./flasher-3.5 Mar 12 12:53:31 Reason: image not found Mar 12 12:53:51 I have libsb-11 installed Mar 12 12:53:53 I have libsb-1 installed Mar 12 12:54:03 use the one from the pkg Mar 12 12:57:59 thanks Mar 12 12:58:06 didn't know there were libs in the package Mar 12 12:58:08 ore:10.6 jps$ DYLD_LIBRARY_PATH=. ../../pc-connectivity-bin/10.6/flasher-3.5 | head -1 Mar 12 12:58:11 flasher v2.5.2 (Nov 25 2009) Mar 12 12:58:28 concept: Please, stop flooding Mar 12 12:58:40 2 lines is flooding? Mar 12 13:04:15 Hurrian: that seems to have worked Mar 12 13:04:23 either that or I've just bricked the phone Mar 12 13:04:32 either way doesn't matter, I'm giving it away anyway Mar 12 13:08:03 giving it away? Mar 12 13:08:05 to who? Mar 12 13:11:39 a friend Mar 12 13:13:24 ahh ok, I　thought you were giving it away to some random person. If that were the case, I'd say pass it to me (I'll pay for shipping costs if needed be :)) got a mate/friend here at my local 2600 meetup that would want a N900 Mar 12 13:14:47 I was considering getting an n9, but thanks to this experience, that is no longer an option for me Mar 12 13:15:04 I mean, wiping a phone shouldn't be such a daunting task Mar 12 13:15:24 an iphone can be wiped with a single click Mar 12 13:15:31 n9 imo is worse than N900 Mar 12 13:16:12 well, I like the touchscreen on it Mar 12 13:16:22 plus it uses microsims, meaning I can exchange sims with my iphone Mar 12 13:16:24 and ipad Mar 12 13:17:19 honestly, being used to an iphone, I really do hate the resistive touchscreen on the n900 Mar 12 13:18:48 I hate capacitative otoh, you actually have to have your finger to hit the screen properly.. when the buttons are small, you had to use the width of your finger just to be able to hit that corresponding key correctly or else you'll need to hit backspace Mar 12 13:18:56 game change cracks me up Mar 12 13:20:00 well you don't have to press as much (or even touch, in the case of the idevices' screens) Mar 12 13:22:07 the only issue I see with capacitive is that it doesn't work with gloves, but the nose is an excellent pointing device, too :P Mar 12 13:23:53 yeah it basically requires a skin or somewhat a conductive pointer to be able to register a `keystroke' on the capacitative touchscreen Mar 12 13:25:20 and I'm not too particularly fond of iphones either, the way they force new owners to use itunes to activate the product and all the usual conspiracies surrounding `phoneback' Mar 12 13:28:37 they don't, anymore Mar 12 13:29:09 itunes is almost (possibly completely) optional now Mar 12 13:29:18 since ios 5 Mar 12 13:30:35 the only thing you need it for with ios 5 is to sync with content on your computer Mar 12 13:30:57 * psycho_oreos also frowns the idea that it lacks a qwerty keyboard. Though ironically n9 is the same, it gives the developer of whatever `app' they choose to create whether to even implement simple functionalities like copy or paste. If they don't incorporate or they won't incorporate it, the end users will be the ones getting the short end of stick Mar 12 13:33:12 in fact for n9 when it comes to searching for music, I simply can't type in the letters to search up the music without the keyboard. I must scroll all the way up to force the search functionality to show up. If I hit the wrong area I end up playing my entire collection in shuffled order Mar 12 13:35:18 oh and the way Apple treats linux users.. the last I recall when linux users wanted itunes equivalent for linux.. Apple snubbed the linux community by saying that they should run the windows version, which forces linux users to run it through wine Mar 12 13:36:02 wrong attitude.. they should never assimilate things.. the case would probably even apply if one for instance ran *BSD Mar 12 13:40:04 their intent is to have people use their entire ecosystem, where things work amazingly well Mar 12 13:41:37 rather.. to me they're trying to assimilate people into mac users like themselves. Sure there are some good things under Apple but otherwise, attitudes like that are purely just wrong. Mar 12 13:42:16 I have an imac, an mbp, an ipad 2, and an iphone 4s working in perfect harmony, plus I'm a developer, meaning I actually get to run stuff on the hardware itself with a debugger attached to it, no need for emulators or simulators, so even as a developer it feels great Mar 12 13:43:25 I understand that point of view because I shared it in the past Mar 12 13:44:31 but then I realized that by sticking to such principles was preventing me from enjoying an experience that no other product ecosystem is capable of offering Mar 12 13:48:42 heh no system is perfect.. even if there's a perfect system.. somewhere down the line or living in utopia may drive one insane Mar 12 13:49:23 it is not about perfection, it is about integration and synergy Mar 12 13:50:04 you really do feel that the whole is much bigger than the parts comprising it Mar 12 13:50:07 especially now with icloud Mar 12 13:51:22 let me give you an example of something pretty simple Mar 12 13:51:25 reminders Mar 12 13:51:33 they've been around since forever Mar 12 13:51:44 ever since PDAs were invented, they had reminders Mar 12 13:52:32 but personally I've never found them too useful, they required me to input in the device itself, and that alone made them extremely inconvenient, plus they could only be set to specific times Mar 12 13:53:15 then ios 5 came with its own implementation and 3 integrations that revolutionized reminders and made them essential to my life all of a sudden Mar 12 13:53:37 1 - siri (I can literally tell my phone to remind me about something) Mar 12 13:54:14 2 - location (I can set up reminders for when I arrive or leave locations, thanks to their integration with the location services on ios) Mar 12 13:54:45 unfortunately they aren't really revolutionary, its just the way they were configured so that it would ideally work the way its intended Mar 12 13:54:49 3 - icloud (I can set up reminders on any of my idevices, or on icloud.com, and they will be instantly pushed to all other devices,) Mar 12 13:55:54 the underlying software fundamentals were already there for awhile, Apple just rearranged things to make it all appear to work out in favour of the user Mar 12 13:55:58 I'm not saying any of this is revolutionary, it is just the product of an integration, an integration that other ecosystems lack Mar 12 13:56:46 and thanks to that integration, reminders are now a fundamental part of my life Mar 12 13:57:16 unarguably that is true however Apple is quite anal about others featuring similar functionalities, which to me is wrong attitude Mar 12 13:57:29 the apple ecosystem is full of little details like this Mar 12 14:00:23 what is that supposed to mean? I　mean stuff like where Apple sued Samsung for mimicking their iPad range and then the recent case against Proview Mar 12 14:01:25 psycho_oreos: I can understand that too Mar 12 14:01:52 if you focus into the big picture rather than the details (i.e.: it doesn't matter whom apple is suing and what for, but why) Mar 12 14:02:20 it is a fact that before the iphone, no other commercially successful phone looked anything like it Mar 12 14:02:54 apple accepted the risk and launched a completely different product that captured the attention of people Mar 12 14:03:21 then came other brands and attempted to mimic that product, after knowing that the formula was actually successful but without ever risking anything Mar 12 14:03:56 it is thus comprehensible that apple would be annoyed by such behavior, hence jobs' "go nuclear on android" quote Mar 12 14:04:28 concept, all I can see is greed. iPod isn't revolutionary, the idea of hard disk based music players was first (iinm) originated by creative, notably their zen jukebox. Though at the time it was seen as rather bulky and ugly, so it never really sold well.. The idea of a tablet was never founded by Apple, it apparently came from a sci-fi movie and half the electronics manufacturers are making tablets just because ipad came around. Instead of Apple s Mar 12 14:04:29 uing each and every other companies, they sued 1) their own CPU/RAM manufacturer, Samsung and 2) Proview simply because they utilise the words iPad internally in China Mar 12 14:05:05 in 2010 the ipad was launched in similar conditions to the iphone, to a market where nothing successful (if we can even talk of success in the tablet market before the ipad) Mar 12 14:05:25 and other brands, once again, tried to mimic the ipad Mar 12 14:06:07 yeah but that's not the point, in the case of Apple vs Samsung over galaxy tab vs iPad was the fact that Apple claimed they whole idea of tablet PC was theirs Mar 12 14:06:15 psycho_oreos: it has nothing to do with greed actually, it has more to do with perception; jobs' apple was not about money (in his own words, they had plenty, which they indeed do) Mar 12 14:06:45 psycho_oreos: I think it had a little to do with how profoundly similar looking the entire Tab product line was to that of the iPad Mar 12 14:06:46 concept, no it is greed. Why would they be suing otherwise? jealousy? too much ego and power? Mar 12 14:06:53 apple never aggressively sought market share (as shown by the fact that they've never tried to offer low-end products) Mar 12 14:07:13 Samsung copied Apple accessory for accessory Mar 12 14:08:35 Gadgetoid, again still besides my point, search up on the case about how Apple claimed it idealised the whole tablet idea. That's the wrong sort of quotation to make Mar 12 14:09:29 concept, never aggressively sought market share.. as if they didn't Mar 12 14:09:38 I don't think anyone was under any illusion that tablets simply didn't exist before the iPad, but it was fairly well established that they sucked balls Mar 12 14:09:47 they didn't, and they don't Mar 12 14:10:45 Can't find any quotes supporting your belief that Apple claim to have invented the tablet, though Mar 12 14:11:01 Gadgetoid_mbp, well they may have sucked balls, but that still doesn't make the point that Apple was trying to claim the idea of tablet based pc as completely their own. This was what they claim against samsung in the case of galaxy tab Mar 12 14:11:10 they are in the business of selling you high-end products that work very well together but are not necessarily dysfunctional on other platforms Mar 12 14:11:18 Gadgetoid_mbp: they claim that they invented specific design of it Mar 12 14:11:44 Gadgetoid_mbp: which is what whole apple vs samsung thing was about Mar 12 14:12:28 concept, wikipedia notes that pretty well, though Apple doesn't have as much hatred for being anti-competitive (like microsoft) though it did create a whole lot of hatred for the way it treats other players in the community Mar 12 14:13:17 psycho_oreos: for example: one huge difference between the way apple does things and microsoft does things is that, when a standard or de facto standard is available, and provided that there is no historical reason to act differently, they follow it Mar 12 14:13:18 Tablet, circa 1994; http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=JBEtPQDQNcI#! Mar 12 14:13:21 well, thing is, everyone wants to keep their market Mar 12 14:13:43 concept: microsoft follows a lot of standards Mar 12 14:13:49 concept: and they created a lot of them Mar 12 14:13:59 jacekowski: just not C99 ;) Mar 12 14:14:09 or POSIX Mar 12 14:14:18 windows IS POSIX compliant Mar 12 14:14:29 plus they have their own implementation of kerberos Mar 12 14:14:36 and their own implementation of xmpp auth Mar 12 14:14:40 compatible with other implementations Mar 12 14:14:46 I can't find an early tablet without a stylus Mar 12 14:14:48 (and that's now, because they didn't even have xmpp before) Mar 12 14:15:00 concept: that's because they want it integrated with their platform Mar 12 14:15:07 concept: google doesn't have xmpp Mar 12 14:15:07 and their own psuh client mail protocol Mar 12 14:15:09 concept: at all Mar 12 14:15:25 concept: they added xmpp frontend to their platform Mar 12 14:15:49 jacekowski: I don't know why you are playing a google card in an apple vs. microsoft debate Mar 12 14:15:59 plus google does implement xmpp Mar 12 14:16:03 google talk is xmpp Mar 12 14:16:08 no it's not Mar 12 14:16:36 few years back when they introduced it, it didn't have anything xmpp with it Mar 12 14:16:36 so what is it? Mar 12 14:16:42 jacekowski: erm Mar 12 14:16:45 later on, they added xmpp c2s frontend Mar 12 14:16:45 it's always been xmpp Mar 12 14:16:56 you're thinking of facebook Mar 12 14:16:59 no Mar 12 14:17:01 jacekowski: I don't recall it ever being anything else Mar 12 14:17:02 xmpp like protocol Mar 12 14:17:09 no, it's always been actual xmpp Mar 12 14:17:19 it was their implementation of xmpp like protocol Mar 12 14:17:23 no, it was XMPP Mar 12 14:17:24 on their own platform Mar 12 14:17:40 is true but now is full jingle Mar 12 14:17:42 complaint Mar 12 14:17:54 it's been XMPP since 2005 when we started the Telepathy project working on Google VOIP calls for the Nokia 770 Mar 12 14:18:05 http://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0166.html Mar 12 14:18:06 their *voip* changed from gingle (their own thing) to jingle Mar 12 14:18:19 but that doesn't make it not XMPP Mar 12 14:18:27 is true , google in the begining have they own implementation of xmpp Mar 12 14:18:36 but now they are complaint Mar 12 14:19:02 yes, but it took them almost 2 years Mar 12 14:19:09 indeed Mar 12 14:19:09 no, it was always xmpp Mar 12 14:19:15 they had their own voip extension Mar 12 14:19:24 it was almost like xmpp Mar 12 14:19:27 yes iwas alway xmpp but not a standard implementation Mar 12 14:19:40 that is why just now the client can exploit all Mar 12 14:19:41 feature Mar 12 14:19:41 but there was a lot of incompatibilities between their xmpp and rest of the world Mar 12 14:19:45 anyway that's besides the point Mar 12 14:20:00 going back to microsoft push email Mar 12 14:20:10 it was a "standard implementation", there was no freaking voip standard for xmpp when they started Mar 12 14:20:14 the point is that microsoft only follows standards when they have something to gain from doing it Mar 12 14:20:22 any XMPP client could connect, it just couldn't use voip, but none of them could Mar 12 14:20:27 and any XMPP server could interop Mar 12 14:20:28 in every other case, where they can actually monopolize, they choose not to Mar 12 14:20:31 exchange protocol Mar 12 14:20:36 messenger protocol Mar 12 14:20:40 kerberos Mar 12 14:20:40 Robot101: they didn't have s2s working for a very long time Mar 12 14:20:45 winapi Mar 12 14:20:50 activesync Mar 12 14:20:59 there was nothing before activesync Mar 12 14:21:16 and activesync is not just push e-mails, but contacts and calendar as well Mar 12 14:21:31 there was IMAP? Mar 12 14:21:36 a very long time? about 6-9 months. january 2006 they enabled s2s. their entire implementation was built around XMPP from the start. Mar 12 14:21:52 concept: imap can only do emails Mar 12 14:22:25 concept: activesync can do emails + contacts + calendar + tasks Mar 12 14:22:39 jacekowski: and you can add extra fields to rfc2822 messages to make calendars out of them Mar 12 14:22:52 contacts are covered by LDAP Mar 12 14:23:07 yeah, do it on mobile phone Mar 12 14:23:07 Gadgetoid_mbp, actually, before 1994 the very first tablet was idealised in 1969 in a sci-fi movie Mar 12 14:23:12 have constant ldap connection Mar 12 14:23:14 Gadgetoid_mbp, "Here in the U.S., Samsung has defended itself with a brief in U.S. District Court for the Northern District of California, arguing that Apple was hardly the first to think of a flat tablet. In "2001" -- actually shot in 1965 and released in 1968 -- two astronauts on the way to Jupiter watch themselves give a TV interview on what looks very much like an iPad." Mar 12 14:23:22 http://abcnews.go.com/Technology/apple-ipad-samsung-galaxy-stanley-kubrick-showed-tablet/story?id=14387499#.T14GYIzB7zR Mar 12 14:23:32 jacekowski: that is not required, you can cache them Mar 12 14:23:42 psycho_oreos: yeah and the first mobile phone was idealised in Star Trek, doesn't mean they invented it Mar 12 14:24:01 I could draw you a picture of a hyperdrive right now, but I'd get laughed out of a patent office :D Mar 12 14:24:13 concept: ldap can't do push Mar 12 14:24:36 Gadgetoid_mbp, and you were arguing that Samsung created accessories similar to Apple in terms of iPad? that wasn't Apple's sole reason for making a lawsuit against Samsung, in fact there's a very good article here: http://www.baekdal.com/opinion/apple-never-designed-the-ipad-they-undesigned-it/ Mar 12 14:24:51 concept: and rfc2822 is from 2001 Mar 12 14:24:53 Gadgetoid_mbp, no it goes to show that I have founded statements Mar 12 14:24:58 concept: activesync was around 6 years earlier Mar 12 14:25:09 jacekowski: there was rfc822 before that Mar 12 14:25:21 psycho_oreos: It doesn't matter. Apple are good and gracious, following in the footsteps of the great lord and master Steve Jobs. They bless each and every device with water from his holy magic font. And they're always right. Mar 12 14:25:25 but I give you the ldap push argument Mar 12 14:25:45 basicaly activesync was first protocol to put all that together Mar 12 14:26:19 Gadgetoid_mbp, "And they're always right." oh yeah they're always right.. it just makes more of a yes-man than a critic who can take arguments on both sides Mar 12 14:26:58 psycho_oreos: You forgot the holy font, don't forget the holy font. Samsung don't have a holy font, and therefore all their device are sinful and against Steve Mar 12 14:27:08 + remote wipe + security policies Mar 12 14:27:17 stuff that they like in corporations a lot Mar 12 14:27:50 anyway Mar 12 14:27:54 this debate is delaying me Mar 12 14:28:22 Gadgetoid_mbp, sinful? they never were really sinful, they're just clones that Apple couldn't resist itching.. Apple relied on Samsung for their CPU and RAM and now they're suing their own manufacturer, quite ironic how one would think that Apple is not trying to dominate the market and not being greedy Mar 12 14:28:50 psycho_oreos: the article you linked to is flawed, in that it lists all the alternatives that Apple gave Samsung and suggest that they are a list of everything Samsung should have done, rather than discrete suggestions for design variation Mar 12 14:29:21 psycho_oreos: it's more complicated than that Mar 12 14:29:39 psycho_oreos: because they are cooperating on one market doesn't mean they can't compete on the other Mar 12 14:29:52 psycho_oreos: rolls royce and GE are perfect example there Mar 12 14:29:56 Gadgetoid_mbp, I have yet to see one article or link from you claiming that Apple was the first one that claim to have the idea of a tablet form PC Mar 12 14:30:11 psycho_oreos: biggest jet engine manufacturers, and competitors Mar 12 14:30:29 psycho_oreos: however, GE engines use RR engine controllers, and RR engines use GE controllers Mar 12 14:30:33 psycho_oreos: I was waiting for *you* to post an article with Apple claiming that they were the first to have invented a tablet... have you suddenly switched to the other side of the argument!? Mar 12 14:30:33 jacekowski, they can compete with each other.. I don't know about rolls royce vs GE case but Apple just likes to take out lawsuits Mar 12 14:31:25 Gadgetoid_mbp, no, because you were initially the one who pointed out that you could not find my statements about Apple not being the first one to create a tablet based PC Mar 12 14:31:57 psycho_oreos: thing is, apple is quite a big customer for samsugn Mar 12 14:31:59 psycho_oreos: No, I pointed out that I couldn't find any statements about Apple claiming they were the inventor of the tablet PC Mar 12 14:32:13 psycho_oreos: and even if apple sues samsung, they can't just say that they won't sell them more CPUs Mar 12 14:32:26 Which is why I said: "Can't find any quotes supporting your belief that Apple claim to have invented the tablet, though" Mar 12 14:33:06 The Tablet PC was invented by Steve Jobs when he travelled back in time to 1066 to watch the Battle of Hastings, anyway Mar 12 14:33:09 Gadgetoid_mbp, and then I said that it was in the lawsuit no? what was that abc link for then? Mar 12 14:33:21 He sat there, watching the bloodlust and thought: "If only I had an absurdly huge camera to film this" Mar 12 14:33:40 And so it is told in the holy book of Steve Mar 12 14:33:56 jacekowski, somewhat I wished that was moreso the case, even if Apple is their big customer.. but then again Mar 12 14:34:25 psycho_oreos: it's big business that most of us don't exactly understand Mar 12 14:34:41 psycho_oreos: and lot of it happens without anybody else knowing Mar 12 14:34:53 we don't know if apple doesn't have like 20 years deal with samsung Mar 12 14:36:50 jacekowski, well yeah lots of the details are really behind the doors deals that obviously keeps companies afloat. Though I'm sure Apple would now probably look for some other CPU/RAM manufacturer to replace whatever they used from Samsung just because of this case.. like historically what Apple typically likes to do, change their manufacturers completely on their own will Mar 12 14:37:30 well, maybe not, maybe samsung is stuck with them for next 10 years Mar 12 14:39:42 though Apple may only use Samsung's components on maybe products other than iPad/iPhone *shrugs*, a way to try and somehow minimalise Samsung's earnings through certain loopholes in agreements. Who knows Mar 12 14:42:53 Gadgetoid: The apple Newton was pretty revolutionary. Mar 12 14:45:47 SpeedEvil: Apple just ripped off the pen and paper, shameless copycats! Mar 12 14:47:03 If the solution to tablet design were as obvious as all these bloggers seem to think it is, why the fuck didn't any other manufacturer release a tablet like this *before* Apple? Mar 12 14:47:08 does anyone here care about Apple vs. Samsung??? Why? :) Mar 12 14:47:31 edheldil: Not really, I'll talk about any old balls Mar 12 14:47:38 I thought that this channel is for those who do not envy slick iPhone experience ;-) Mar 12 14:48:08 edheldil: Yes, yes, the Nokia N8x0 is the only tablet! Mar 12 14:48:45 btw, Sammsung really does not have reason to dump Apple if it loses in suit - it would be a needless lost of profit Mar 12 14:48:46 I feel ashamed, I haven't broken out my N810 for ages :( Mar 12 14:49:24 Given by how big a percentage of Apple's business their "post-PC" devices are, I should imagine that Apple constitute a significant portion of Samsung's business Mar 12 14:50:09 Leading me to conclude that Samsung would sooner cut off their own balls than drop Apple, but are probably secretly plotting to overthrow them with a radical new triangular tablet design Mar 12 14:51:26 btw, did they lose already? I was not watching the suit Mar 12 14:52:22 Me either, no idea, couldn't give a monkeys unless it meant someone was going to come to my house and personally relieve my of my Apple devices Mar 12 15:01:18 The form factor of a touchscreen display is _quite_ obvious. Mar 12 15:01:31 See '2010' - or old star treks. Mar 12 15:01:43 For very ipad looking like things. Mar 12 15:02:25 it is thus strange that we had to wait until 2010 to have such devices Mar 12 15:02:35 No, it's not. Mar 12 15:02:48 I can imagine many things that can't be economically constructed. Mar 12 15:03:10 there were plenty of "tablet PCs" before the ipad Mar 12 15:03:17 I had one from HP in 2005 Mar 12 15:03:19 Making thin, light devices is hard. Mar 12 15:03:38 granted the touchscreen was utter crap, but the capacitive technology is much older than that Mar 12 15:03:58 I don't get why people think capacitive is important. Mar 12 15:04:05 There are many ways to do a touchscreen. Mar 12 15:04:18 It makes about as much sens as going on about what the case is made out of. Mar 12 15:04:27 Probably less. Mar 12 15:04:59 perhaps capacitive is the cheapest and strongest option providing all the required multi-touch functionality Mar 12 15:07:05 optical is crap, resistive with such capabilities may not be rugged enough for a mobile device, so that leaves scanline resistive as the ultimate solution for unlimite area touch sensibility Mar 12 15:07:24 unlimited* Mar 12 15:07:24 SAW Mar 12 15:07:41 I hate capacitive, personally. Mar 12 15:07:46 s/scanline resistive/scanline capacitive/ Mar 12 15:08:04 I find a screen which has some degree of pressure sensitivity far more usable Mar 12 15:08:06 I love it Mar 12 15:08:20 you can emulate pressure sensitivity on a capacitive screen Mar 12 15:08:38 by measuring the touch area Mar 12 15:08:44 I've not seen a device that does it usefully. Mar 12 15:08:56 both my iphone and ipad do Mar 12 15:09:05 and music apps such as garageband make use of it Mar 12 15:09:21 it doesn't exactly work Mar 12 15:09:26 it does Mar 12 15:09:38 if you learn how to touch you screen Mar 12 15:09:40 I mean - so that you can place your finger on the device, without triggering a touch without a force of over a gram or so. Mar 12 15:12:07 I don't think implementing such a resistive touchscreen would be practical on a mobile device Mar 12 15:12:33 I have one. Works well. Mar 12 15:12:55 I hope you're not referring to the N900 Mar 12 15:13:06 WFM Mar 12 15:29:22 concept: it was implemented... years ago... and you are far off reliable "both my iphone and ipad do", personally I prefer hardware which is usable for work- and home-usage in a single device... Mar 12 15:32:14 both iphone and ipad are Mar 12 15:32:36 unless you work on very specific environments, such as network engineering Mar 12 15:32:42 *in Mar 12 15:34:01 trolling or...? Mar 12 15:34:36 considering how the american air force itself has ordered 18k ipads, how would I be trolling? Mar 12 15:35:24 because you're in here masturbating over the iPhone/iPad, and it's offtopic? Mar 12 15:35:35 apparently, ios devices are good enough for military applications, so yes, unless you work in very specific niche fields, they are likely to be perfectly usable at work for you Mar 12 15:35:47 no, see I'm a software developer Mar 12 15:35:57 wmarone_: there was a debate earlier, it's not my fault if you weren't following Mar 12 15:35:59 and software developers are explicitly restricted on iOS Mar 12 15:36:06 concept: that and I may not have been awake Mar 12 15:36:11 don't jump into a conversation claiming that the party you don't agree is trolling Mar 12 15:36:18 that makes you the troll Mar 12 15:36:21 no, see Mar 12 15:36:38 you're here touting the superiority of a platform that is unrelated to the topic of this channel Mar 12 15:36:40 +1 for troll Mar 12 15:36:44 wmarone_: what's the problem with being explicitly restricted? Mar 12 15:36:46 are we taking votes? Mar 12 15:37:04 concept: precisely the reason I won't buy iOS or Apple devices anymore Mar 12 15:37:07 wmarone_: I'm not touting the superiority of anything Mar 12 15:37:09 and precisely why I bought my N900 Mar 12 15:37:20 then why are you going on and on about your iPad and iPhone Mar 12 15:37:38 wmarone_: scroll back and find out Mar 12 15:40:25 this conversation started because I mentioned how unusable nokia software was when it came to performing the simple task of wiping an N900, compared to a single click to do the same on an iphone -- this is practical stuff, your rant about restrictuions is bullshit Mar 12 15:45:22 concept: syncing contacts+calendars between several devices fails, you cannot even transfer a darn picture from an iphone to a powerbook... had to retake with my n900 as it was able to send pictures to the powerbook... Mar 12 15:47:03 chem|st: that is quite strange, since the iphone exports a DCIM filesystem to the outside world with pictures that is supposed to be reatable by any software designed to interact with digital cameras Mar 12 15:47:21 (just like the N900 does) Mar 12 15:47:36 concept: try bluetooth... Mar 12 15:48:06 ah, that's a totally different story altogether, the iphone lacks a lot of bluetooth profiles Mar 12 15:48:16 ... Mar 12 15:48:24 sending a file? Mar 12 15:48:35 essentials you mean Mar 12 15:48:40 I believe it only has 2 profiles Mar 12 15:48:57 one is for bt audio and the other I can't remember Mar 12 15:49:03 the ipad has one for bt keyboards too Mar 12 15:49:20 why does it have an option to send files via BT? Mar 12 15:49:38 the iphone? Mar 12 15:49:48 it doesn't, last time I checked... Mar 12 15:50:06 correct me if im wrong, but isn't the n900 a developer device never ment to be used by consumers or in a professional/productive environment? why should a comparison with an iphone be legit? Mar 12 15:50:42 I believe the n900 is considered a consumer device Mar 12 15:50:52 hanning: it's a consumer device, but it isn't a phone. Mar 12 15:50:53