**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Fri May 04 02:59:59 2012
May 04 03:21:03 <topobot> why maemo is more hackeable than android?
May 04 03:28:41 <Hurrian> topobot, because it's running GNU/Linux
May 04 03:28:49 <Hurrian> with glibc
May 04 03:28:54 <Hurrian> and X11
May 04 03:28:56 <topobot> android is not linux?
May 04 03:29:00 <Hurrian> it is linux
May 04 03:29:15 <Hurrian> but chrooting ubuntu on any android device is painful.
May 04 03:29:31 <Hurrian> theoretically, they can both run the same stuff via chroot
May 04 03:29:36 <topobot> whats the diference between andoid and maemo?
May 04 03:29:43 <Hurrian> the stack.
May 04 03:29:44 <topobot> can you install ubunto on n900?
May 04 03:29:51 <topobot> ubuntu
May 04 03:29:55 <Hurrian> android is linux kernel + android OS
May 04 03:30:03 <Hurrian> yeah, you can boot ubuntu on the n900.
May 04 03:30:16 <topobot> does it run smooth ubunto on n900?
May 04 03:30:21 <topobot> ubuntu?
May 04 03:30:28 <topobot> does it run fine?
May 04 03:30:31 <Hurrian> once you give it some time to load, yeah
May 04 03:30:38 <Hurrian> unity 2d runs fine
May 04 03:30:45 <topobot> does it run better than maemo?
May 04 03:30:48 <Hurrian> nope
May 04 03:30:55 <Hurrian> maemo is the best running OS on the N900.
May 04 03:31:01 <Hurrian> because of all the closed bits.
May 04 03:31:16 <topobot> umm ok
May 04 03:31:27 <topobot> is it possible to make faster a n900 phone?
May 04 03:31:33 <topobot> maybe changing the hardware?
May 04 03:31:39 <Hurrian> overclocking.
May 04 03:31:43 <Hurrian> swap on microsd.
May 04 03:31:43 <topobot> whats that?
May 04 03:31:59 <Hurrian> making the N900's CPU run faster than what it's rated to do.
May 04 03:32:21 <Hurrian> it uses more power and shortens the N900's lifespan, but it makes everything a lot more bearable
May 04 03:32:53 <topobot> so its faster but it consume more energy?
May 04 03:32:53 <Hurrian> you have to understand the N900 is a 2009-era device
May 04 03:32:58 <Hurrian> yes.
May 04 03:33:22 <topobot> do you think in the future n900 are gonna be expensive?
May 04 03:33:27 <topobot> like collectionable hardware?
May 04 03:33:47 <Hurrian> Only within Maemo.org, and only if the USB port doesn't break.
May 04 03:34:30 <topobot> why if maemo is so good they stopped developing it?
May 04 03:34:42 <Hurrian> Nokia's upper management is retarded.
May 04 03:34:50 <Hurrian> Also, iirc it was folded into MeeGo.
May 04 03:36:38 <topobot> and which do you think is more profitable, to develop an app for android, ios or maemo?
May 04 03:38:11 <Hurrian> iOS, by far. Getting >200 downloads on a good 0.99$ app is easy.
May 04 03:38:21 <Hurrian> (if your app is good)
May 04 03:38:39 <Hurrian> On Maemo, unless you're developing a game, most stuff needed is already there.
May 04 03:38:53 <Hurrian> If it's not, it simply gets ported from desktop Linux
May 04 03:38:58 <topobot> what do you mean with 
May 04 03:39:03 <topobot> "stuff needed"?
May 04 03:39:17 <Hurrian> tools/utilities/whatever
May 04 03:39:27 <topobot> and android?
May 04 03:40:07 <Hurrian> the market's pretty full of ad supported ones+pro version (paid), you may want to try that
May 04 03:40:37 <topobot> ad supported ones? how does it works that system?
May 04 03:41:02 <Hurrian> you put ads in the free version of your app, you get paid when people use your app
May 04 03:41:10 <topobot> oh
May 04 03:41:14 <topobot> is that profitable?
May 04 03:41:21 <Hurrian> for apps with lots of downloads, then yeah, it is
May 04 03:41:39 <topobot> look, i made an program for maemo
May 04 03:42:10 <topobot> with python, and i been usign this app since some years, i want to develop it on ios for selling it
May 04 03:42:21 <topobot> i think maybe can be useful for other
May 04 03:42:21 <topobot> s
May 04 03:42:34 <topobot> but i dont know to program objectvie c
May 04 03:42:55 <Hurrian> iirc Apple lets other programming languages fly if your app is good enough.
May 04 03:43:00 <topobot> theres a programmer that can pass the python program into objective c and then i can sell it on itunes
May 04 03:43:09 <topobot> but he is asking me for 1400 dollars
May 04 03:43:27 <Hurrian> they loosen the rules if your app is not some spam thing.
May 04 03:43:54 <Hurrian> if you want to not use Objective-C, you can publish it on the Cydia app store, where there are no rules
May 04 03:43:59 <topobot> so i need to sel 1414 apps at 0.99$ in order to not loose money
May 04 03:44:04 <topobot> sell
May 04 03:45:08 <Hurrian> 1400 dollars is big money, do you think you can sell that many?
May 04 03:45:24 <wmarone> heh
May 04 03:45:26 <Hurrian> if you think you can at least break even, go for it, but if not, don't.
May 04 03:45:29 <topobot> i dont know , i never tried this before
May 04 03:46:02 <wmarone> heh, you need something like RubyMotion, but for Python
May 04 03:46:37 <Hurrian> wmarone, you just need your app popular enough. iirc, Angry Birds on iOS uses (used?) Lua
May 04 03:46:46 <wmarone> it uses Lua internally
May 04 03:46:55 <wmarone> the interpreter and all of its scripts are contained within the .app
May 04 03:46:59 <wmarone> Apple doesn't care about those
May 04 03:47:14 <wmarone> it's not a matter of "popular" enough, it's a matter of how it impacts the system
May 04 03:47:15 <topobot> angry birds used lua
May 04 03:47:17 <topobot> wow
May 04 03:47:26 <wmarone> lots of games use Lua
May 04 03:47:33 <topobot> but not pure lua right?
May 04 03:47:40 <Hurrian> yeah.
May 04 03:47:40 <wmarone> define "pure lua"
May 04 03:47:57 <topobot> i mean its an objective c app that internally interpret lua code
May 04 03:48:02 <wmarone> yes
May 04 03:48:11 <wmarone> the lua interpreter is compiled into the binary
May 04 03:48:36 <topobot> whats the reason of using lua?
May 04 03:48:38 <wmarone> Half-life 2 does that, World of Warcraft does that...
May 04 03:48:47 <topobot> why not use pure objective c
May 04 03:49:16 <wmarone> some things are easier in high level scripting languages
May 04 03:49:17 <Hurrian> it eases cross-platform development.
May 04 03:49:23 <wmarone> that too
May 04 03:49:31 <Hurrian> wasnt angry birds for maemo also partially Lua?
May 04 03:49:37 <topobot> angry birds is cross plattform?
May 04 03:49:43 <wmarone> I would imagine they're all partially Lua
May 04 03:49:44 <topobot> does it run on android as well?
May 04 03:49:48 <wmarone> yes
May 04 03:49:56 <Hurrian> topobot, it's free, ad-supported on Android
May 04 03:50:16 <wmarone> in fact I'd imagine that, at least on Apple, it's mostly C + Lua and very little objective-c
May 04 03:50:17 <topobot> does andoid runs objective c  apps?
May 04 03:50:20 <topobot> *android
May 04 03:50:27 <Hurrian> topobot, no, it runs Dalvik apps
May 04 03:50:32 <wmarone> err
May 04 03:50:39 <wmarone> Android's NDK allows for C applications
May 04 03:50:39 <topobot> dalvik?
May 04 03:50:54 <Hurrian> wmarone, almost forgot about that
May 04 03:51:18 <wmarone> topobot: Dalvik is the java-like VM Google created for Android
May 04 03:51:18 <Hurrian> but the share of armv6/armv7 android phones is probably about 50/50, so i wouldn't do that
May 04 03:51:32 <topobot> ohhh
May 04 03:51:53 <wmarone> Hurrian: sure you would, if Google can't discern between them and deliver the right package then they're wholly incompetent
May 04 03:51:55 <topobot> so for developing on android is it better to use java?
May 04 03:52:18 <wmarone> topobot: well, Dalvik really. They share syntax and not much else
May 04 03:52:38 <wmarone> though Oracle and Google are battling out over this stuff in court right now >.>
May 04 03:53:07 <topobot> and which are the limits you have on ios for developing apps?
May 04 03:53:18 <topobot> i heard there are  a lot of limitations right?
May 04 03:53:30 <wmarone> you'd have to go dig through Apple's docs to determine their limitations
May 04 03:53:35 <wmarone> I have no hand in iOS
May 04 04:00:58 <topobot> and which are the most innovative apps for mobile phones out there?
May 04 04:04:22 * wmarone shrugs
May 04 07:43:25 <topobot> hi
May 04 07:43:27 <topobot> anyone here?
May 04 07:44:37 <Sicelo> kinda
May 04 07:44:58 <topobot> is it possible to attach an external camera to n900?
May 04 07:46:10 <Sicelo> i haven't tried. either way, with h-e-n, it might be possible
May 04 07:47:05 <topobot> whats h-e-n?
May 04 07:47:08 <Sicelo> also, what 'exactly' do you want to do?
May 04 07:47:13 <Sicelo> ~h-e-n
May 04 07:47:13 <infobot> hostmode is, like, http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=65232, or see ~hostmode-charging
May 04 07:47:26 <topobot> i want  to connect a external camera 
May 04 07:47:45 <Sicelo> connect it to do what?
May 04 07:48:36 <topobot> instead of using the camera of the n900
May 04 07:48:44 <topobot> i want to connect an external camera
May 04 07:48:57 <topobot> for example a spy micro camera
May 04 07:49:05 <topobot> so i can attach it to my neck 
May 04 07:49:13 <flux> well, you would probably need a special camera application to make use of such camera
May 04 07:49:19 <topobot> and use it as a spy camera to record all the anticapitalist protest
May 04 07:50:58 <Sicelo> flux: maybe mplayer and gstreamer would do 
May 04 07:51:19 <flux> sure, any app that could make use of /dev/video2
May 04 07:51:40 <topobot> but how do i connect the camera to the n900?
May 04 07:51:40 <RST38h> Moo, gentlemen
May 04 07:51:45 <RST38h> How is suffering tonight?
May 04 07:51:46 <topobot> via usb?
May 04 07:52:36 <Sicelo> of course topobot. and h-e-n. you got an URL a few lines before
May 04 07:52:46 <topobot> ok
May 04 07:54:36 <topobot> h-e-n allows to conect to any usb external device?
May 04 07:54:56 <Sicelo> ~h-e-n
May 04 07:54:57 <infobot> i heard hostmode is http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=65232, or see ~hostmode-charging
May 04 07:55:08 <Sicelo> read man. answer is yes 
May 04 07:55:49 <Sicelo> the only issue you might face is lack of driver/module ... but that's a bridge you'll have to cross after reaching
May 04 07:55:49 <topobot> but do i need to develop another app besides h-e-n?
May 04 07:56:31 <Sicelo> if you're a dev, so much better. but maemo already has mplayer and gstreamer apps .. these should be enough
May 04 07:56:43 <Sicelo> but then, only you know your exact requirements
May 04 08:08:18 <Hurrian> doesn't maemo already have uvcvideo/gspca drivers?
May 04 08:08:25 <Hurrian> those two should cover most webcams
May 04 10:00:31 <joga> on n900, can I somehow prevent checking for updates if I have an internet connection, I'm going camping abroad for a few days and 1MB of data might cost 3-4 euros
May 04 10:00:50 <joga> I'd just like to use ssh, if anything
May 04 10:10:29 <Hurrian> iirc you can use gconf to set update interval
May 04 10:10:32 <Hurrian> lemme look uit up
May 04 10:11:16 <Hurrian> gconftool -s --type int /apps/hildon/update-notifier/check_interval 2147483646
May 04 10:26:07 <joga> Hurrian thanks!
May 04 10:56:16 <spark666> is it possible whit CSSU testing to have autorotation just in browser,contacts and phone calls?
May 04 10:56:43 <chem|st> Hurrian: joga for me it never changed anything... setting it to the maximum value gives me an update message any day there is an update available...
May 04 10:57:12 <Hurrian> set it and reboot.
May 04 10:57:32 <Hurrian> unless you launch ham, it wont notify you anymore
May 04 10:57:50 <chem|st> Hurrian: lol "have you tried to turn it off and on again" I am the BOFH here...
May 04 10:58:15 <Hurrian> iirc it only reappears if you happen to relaunch ham.
May 04 10:58:24 <Hurrian> which i do for CSSU updates and the sort
May 04 11:02:01 <chem|st> Hurrian: what is the default value?
May 04 11:06:53 <Hurrian> chem|st, iirc it's 1440
May 04 11:06:57 <Hurrian> 1440 minutes
May 04 11:07:22 <chem|st> 1 day though
May 04 11:11:53 <RST38h> Meanwhile: A young researcher from San Francisco has died after being infected by a highly virulent strain of meningococcal disease he was studyingand there are fears that it could spread.
May 04 11:14:25 <Hurrian> isn't SOP for that to cremate the body, encase it in lead and put it in the ground?
May 04 11:14:49 <Hurrian> hospitals have infectious disease wards for that
May 04 11:16:34 <RST38h> And Win8 News: unless you buy the Media Center version of the OS, Windows won't offer any native facility for DVD playback. 
May 04 11:18:36 <chem|st> DocScrutinizer: hail the operator!
May 04 11:18:48 <Hurrian> >DVD playback included with media center upgrade
May 04 11:18:51 <Hurrian> wait, what?
May 04 11:19:11 <Hurrian> i could've sworn that was a standard feature of WMP for years
May 04 11:20:00 <chem|st> Hurrian: and for years I do not use WMP... if on windows, if forced to... I use vlc as anywhere else...
May 04 11:20:44 <Hurrian> whelp, more reason to include mpchc as part of my "drivers" flashdrive.
May 04 11:21:01 <chem|st> I'd guess I started it accidentially some times with fresh installs but never used it since win2k again
May 04 11:22:43 <jonwil> I think whats happening is that Microsoft has decided that if you want media playback for these codecs, you have to pay extra (which then goes to the patent holders for these formats)
May 04 11:23:14 <jonwil> i.e. it allows them to sell the base version of Windows 8 cheaper (due to not needing to pay the licenses for that version)
May 04 11:23:23 <DocScrutinizer> re update, don't use insane idiotic numbers like 2147483646, when 1440000 will do
May 04 11:23:45 <Hurrian> if windows 8 (not pro) costs the same or more than home premium, this whole thing is idiotic.
May 04 11:24:35 <jonwil> Windows 8 has nothing in it that makes me want to upgrade at all
May 04 11:25:55 <Termana> Considering I'm all Linux, Windows 8 would be a downgrade for me
May 04 11:26:07 <Termana> or any Windows
May 04 11:26:36 <Termana> Windows don't come in my house man. Doors are fine though
May 04 11:27:13 <Termana> I should get a doormat or something that says "Leave your Windows devices at the door"
May 04 11:27:26 <Hurrian> Termana, I use it for the games.
May 04 11:27:47 <Veggen> I had to cave in and buy something with Windows this winter. Didn't survive first boot, though ;P
May 04 11:27:55 <Hurrian> I have a PS3, but that's more of a locked system, also, 250+++ MB updates every other week
May 04 11:28:08 <Veggen> I hate that quality laptops don't come OS-less.
May 04 11:28:15 <Termana> Hurrian, I'm not much of a gamer, so that probably helps my no-windows situation
May 04 11:28:25 <Termana> Veggen, what about System76?
May 04 11:30:07 <DocScrutinizer> re update - when you tell it period of update is MAXINT, then what's date of next update? now() + MAXINT?
May 04 11:30:28 <merlin1991> nop
May 04 11:30:29 <merlin1991> e
May 04 11:30:31 <DocScrutinizer> congrats, you created an overflow
May 04 11:30:34 <merlin1991> then it overflows and fails 100%
May 04 11:30:38 <merlin1991> in saying NOW
May 04 11:30:47 <merlin1991> then ham gets even slower xD
May 04 11:32:01 <DocScrutinizer> and odds are internally it's using jiffies aka linux-dates for duration and time of next update
May 04 11:32:25 <chem|st> Termana: need that for apple + windows^^
May 04 11:33:25 <DocScrutinizer> so even MAXINT/60 is probably still a few magnitudes too large for update-period
May 04 11:34:50 <DocScrutinizer> well, I already updated the ³ in "how-to-tweak-your-maemo"
May 04 11:35:00 <DocScrutinizer> §
May 04 11:35:03 <DocScrutinizer> even
May 04 11:35:19 <DocScrutinizer> qiute some time ago
May 04 11:35:47 <chem|st> something >1M should do...
May 04 11:35:47 <DocScrutinizer> and the fact that MAXINT seems to fail for period been well known from beginning
May 04 11:36:54 <DocScrutinizer> honestly 60*60*24*365 should be just fine
May 04 11:37:33 <DocScrutinizer> if that's been seconds now
May 04 11:37:58 <DocScrutinizer> 60*24*365 for the case it's in minutes
May 04 11:39:55 <DocScrutinizer> http://wiki.maemo.org/Customizing_Maemo#Disabling_Auto_Updates_Check
May 04 11:44:24 * DocScrutinizer idly muses what's that bit in man's nature that makes him select MAX whenever there's a MAX value mentioned for a value to pick
May 04 11:45:21 <Termana> I'm not sure what you're thinking of but that is AWESOMENESS
May 04 11:45:41 <DocScrutinizer> ">>short D+ and D- with a resistance of MAX 200R<< - hooray, I found a 200Ohm-resistor to fix my charger"
May 04 11:49:19 <DocScrutinizer> ~2147483647 / 1440 
May 04 11:49:20 <infobot> 1491308.088194444543
May 04 11:49:32 <DocScrutinizer> ~2147483647 / 1440 / 365
May 04 11:49:32 <infobot> 4085.775584094369
May 04 11:49:50 <Hurrian> >next apt-worker update in 4 millenia
May 04 11:50:23 <DocScrutinizer> yeah, now I *finally* shown him who's the boss ;-P
May 04 11:50:39 <DocScrutinizer> hahaha, or maybe not
May 04 11:57:32 <DocScrutinizer> esp since your update schedule will get updated itself whenever you run an update, so assuming you start HAM once every 4 weeks to check for a new app or for a CSSU update or whatever, setting the period to 30 days is as good as 4000 years, in both cases it never will do an automatic update
May 04 13:07:08 <LaoLang_cool> Can I stop mass storage mode from n900 side?
May 04 13:08:11 <Termana> Don't select Mass Storage Mode when you plug it in?
May 04 13:08:43 <BiggAl> I think he mean's force it to be ejected
May 04 13:08:45 <LaoLang_cool> Termana: I've enabled it, I wonder if I can stop it from n900
May 04 13:09:06 <LaoLang_cool> BiggAl: yes :)
May 04 13:09:20 <BiggAl> doubt it - it'd somehow have to signal to the computer that you want it to finish writing and release any locks
May 04 13:09:35 <BiggAl> on the filesystem
May 04 13:10:31 <LaoLang_cool> ok..
May 04 13:32:23 <lardman> Just browsing the web and looking at a hand-on review of the Galaxy S3, I see an interesting feature called Smart Stay which uses the camera to detect whether you're looking at the screen and therefore whether to power it off
May 04 13:33:33 <SpeedEvil> I find it depressing to think that that idea - which I think I commented on IRC about 4 years ago - is probably patented
May 04 13:33:55 <lardman> Well as long as you don't want to sell it, and we are Linux folks
May 04 13:33:55 <Psi_> heh
May 04 13:33:57 <Hurrian> wtf? camera being on and imaging power is probably higher than running LED screen at 100% brightness
May 04 13:34:07 <lardman> Hurrian: I was wondering about that
May 04 13:34:15 <SpeedEvil> Hurrian: Not really
May 04 13:34:20 <SpeedEvil> Hurrian: - done properly.
May 04 13:34:21 <Psi_> wouldnt have to be on all the time, just one frame every sec
May 04 13:34:22 <lardman> though low framerate would do
May 04 13:34:28 <SpeedEvil> You can do it several ways.
May 04 13:34:31 <SpeedEvil> A frame a second.
May 04 13:34:41 <SpeedEvil> Or - perhaps cheaper - a tiny ROI tracking face
May 04 13:35:03 <Hurrian> that's still pretty stupid, though, even if it was at 1fps. it's probably easier to reach for the device lock button.
May 04 13:35:12 <Hurrian> then again, it is 4. 8 inches
May 04 13:35:15 <lardman> lol
May 04 13:35:18 <Psi_> i like the n900 slider button
May 04 13:35:28 <lardman> http://www.knowyourmobile.com/features/1354955/samsung_smart_technology_an_indepth_look.html
May 04 13:35:45 <lardman> sounds like they expect it to be used if you fall asleep
May 04 13:36:02 <SpeedEvil> lardman: It depends.
May 04 13:36:20 <lardman> I think eye tracking to determine whether the backlight timeout is active would be useful, to save needing to keep proding the screen
May 04 13:36:27 <SpeedEvil> indeed
May 04 13:36:36 <DocScrutinizer> ~roi
May 04 13:36:37 <infobot> i heard roi is Return On Investment, usually used to describe one's own interpretation of a pragmatic solution, or just plain hedonism. Also could mean "Rate Of Interest" in banking terms.
May 04 13:36:46 <lardman> region of interest
May 04 13:36:48 <SpeedEvil> Region of interest
May 04 13:37:06 <SpeedEvil> It's settable in most cameras - I had one USB camera that would do 400fps@16x16
May 04 13:37:29 <lardman> but is it cheaper electron-wise?
May 04 13:38:24 <SpeedEvil> yes
May 04 13:38:41 <lardman> focusing might be an issue, though one would presumably set that once or at a fixed reading distance
May 04 13:38:57 * DocScrutinizer glares at half-disassembled n950
May 04 13:38:57 <SpeedEvil> Done right, - with 'DSP' support - it can be quite lightweight.
May 04 13:39:07 <SpeedEvil> At least compared with full-up backlight
May 04 13:39:13 <lardman> sure
May 04 13:39:25 <lardman> might also add in gaze tracking and scroll the page for you :)
May 04 13:39:29 <SpeedEvil> Also - it raises other fun possibilities
May 04 13:39:32 <DocScrutinizer> such smartass printed antennae
May 04 13:39:34 <SpeedEvil> eye-flick gestures
May 04 13:39:48 <lardman> yeah would be cool
May 04 13:39:51 <SpeedEvil> Blink gestures
May 04 13:40:06 <lardman> sticking tongue out gestures
May 04 13:40:08 <SpeedEvil> Wink three times with your left eye, then look right-left-right to make a call, for example.
May 04 13:40:14 <SpeedEvil> Intuitive.
May 04 13:40:19 <DocScrutinizer> ouch
May 04 13:40:21 <DocScrutinizer> :-P
May 04 13:40:27 <lardman> hope someone doesn't call an ambulance thinking you're having a stroke....
May 04 13:40:37 * DocScrutinizer massages a muscle in his face
May 04 13:40:49 <SpeedEvil> If you're having a stroke, it navigates to a preset website, with appropriate content.
May 04 13:41:03 <lardman> lol
May 04 13:41:23 <lardman> re the S3, 4.8" is rather large
May 04 13:42:00 <DocScrutinizer> I think the eyetracking+blink-'gestures' UI is pretty nice. Not for screens though, but for sth like google-glasses
May 04 13:42:17 <SpeedEvil> DocScrutinizer: Indeed.
May 04 13:42:28 <DocScrutinizer> on my future investigation projects for ~15 years now
May 04 13:42:47 <Hurrian> on a side note, anyone here got the N900 slide lock to stop working nicely?
May 04 13:42:52 <DocScrutinizer> this very year I hope to actually start hands-on
May 04 13:42:53 <lardman> I thought those glasses were going to be out later in the year ;)
May 04 13:43:06 <SpeedEvil> Hurrian: you mean yours has?
May 04 13:43:09 <Hurrian> i dummied out the sysfs entry in mce, it locks and unlocks randomly ;_;
May 04 13:43:13 <SpeedEvil> Hurrian: From memory, it's a little magnet
May 04 13:43:22 <SpeedEvil> hmm
May 04 13:43:43 <SpeedEvil> you mean the keyboard lock?
May 04 13:43:50 <DocScrutinizer> slide-lock?
May 04 13:43:52 <Hurrian> No, the lock switch on the side.
May 04 13:43:59 <DocScrutinizer> ???
May 04 13:44:04 <DocScrutinizer> oooh, N900
May 04 13:44:09 <Hurrian> it's beside the headphone jack.
May 04 13:44:10 <DocScrutinizer> I've read N950
May 04 13:44:30 <DocScrutinizer> we had that before
May 04 13:44:38 <DocScrutinizer> it's a mech defect of the switch
May 04 13:44:56 <SpeedEvil> The right thing to do is to replace the switch.
May 04 13:45:01 <DocScrutinizer> yep
May 04 13:45:08 <SpeedEvil> I would however try dissasembling, and flushing with contact cleaner.
May 04 13:45:18 <DocScrutinizer> open up, clean, check switch, replace if due
May 04 13:45:28 <Hurrian> will do when i buy a nicer heatgun and a capacitor to replace the internal backup battery.
May 04 13:45:29 <SpeedEvil> - and if that doesn't work - try opening the switch and fixing.
May 04 13:45:36 <DocScrutinizer> nah
May 04 13:45:49 <SpeedEvil> That's really hard at this scale though.
May 04 13:45:51 <SpeedEvil> I have done it.
May 04 13:45:54 <DocScrutinizer> forget about opening those fsckng micro smd-switches
May 04 13:46:08 <SpeedEvil> It varies with model
May 04 13:46:12 <SpeedEvil> some are actually not too bad
May 04 13:46:27 <SpeedEvil> others have those plastic melted buttons on
May 04 13:46:31 <lardman> hmm, IR glint is good for eye tracking /me muses to himself
May 04 13:46:48 <SpeedEvil> lardman: the eye doesn't appear much different in near-IR to issible
May 04 13:46:55 <SpeedEvil> vis
May 04 13:47:11 <DocScrutinizer> look, that'S a NO-switch. If there's random contacts, some conducting debris has to be inside, most likely something broke and now is loose inside the switch
May 04 13:47:15 * SpeedEvil wonders about corneal temperatures
May 04 13:47:29 <SpeedEvil> Indeed
May 04 13:47:30 <lardman> you sure? My daughter's eyes shine like cats' eyes when she looks towards our baby monitor and it's dark
May 04 13:47:46 <Hurrian> that's probably light getting reflected
May 04 13:47:47 <SpeedEvil> that's because it's illuminated
May 04 13:47:54 <lardman> NIR
May 04 13:47:57 <SpeedEvil> The same happens with normal light
May 04 13:48:18 <SpeedEvil> If you can learn to defocus your eyes so that the flash of a camera and the lens merge into one, your eyes glow white
May 04 13:48:20 <DocScrutinizer> red-eye effect
May 04 13:48:56 <SpeedEvil> Also - with IR, it's due to lack of aversion, and poor focusing, so you get better 'cats-eye' effect
May 04 13:49:33 <DocScrutinizer> it's basically due to flash of cheap compact cams so close to lens
May 04 13:49:36 <lardman> whatever the method, with NIR illumination the eyes are by far the brightest objects on the screen
May 04 13:50:00 <SpeedEvil> Interesting
May 04 13:50:09 <DocScrutinizer> yes, because your retina reflects IR to avoid overheating
May 04 13:50:12 <lardman> I'll take a photo
May 04 13:50:33 <SpeedEvil> There is little IR light of that sort that matters.
May 04 13:51:10 <SpeedEvil> It's not to prevent overheating, it's because the IR focal point differs, so instead of the eye being a good reteroreflector - as it is when focussed on visible - it's a bad one - and you get a relatively wide cone.
May 04 13:51:31 <SpeedEvil> The solar spectrum has the majority of energy in visible - not NIR
May 04 13:51:41 <DocScrutinizer> doesn't matter
May 04 13:51:45 <SpeedEvil> And 'thermal' IR - ~10um - is absorbed by the eye
May 04 13:51:48 <SpeedEvil> the cornea
May 04 13:51:49 <DocScrutinizer> hot objects are legion
May 04 13:51:54 <SpeedEvil> It gets nowhere near the lens.
May 04 13:52:08 <SpeedEvil> Hot objects are not common in nature, so are not selected for at all.
May 04 13:52:26 <SpeedEvil> ^so tollerance for them
May 04 13:52:39 <DocScrutinizer> rather intollerance then
May 04 13:54:08 <DocScrutinizer> I'd argue nature/evolution took care to reflect as much of useless "energy" out of eye again as possible
May 04 13:54:28 <SpeedEvil> It's quite irrelevant unless you look at the sun
May 04 13:54:57 <DocScrutinizer> which of course never really happens in real life of a homo erectus in savanna
May 04 13:55:13 <lardman> I think absorption/filtering would be easier than developing reflectors for that purpose
May 04 13:55:48 <k273> wow, heavy stuff
May 04 13:55:49 <lardman> not unless said homo erectus has welding goggles with a hole and it's an eclipse
May 04 13:55:51 <k273> =)
May 04 13:55:59 <DocScrutinizer> filtering NIR from visible spectrum is harder than reflecting it back out, I'd guess
May 04 13:56:01 <SpeedEvil> http://www.opticsinfobase.org/ao/abstract.cfm?uri=ao-28-6-1061
May 04 13:56:08 * SpeedEvil args at firewalls.
May 04 13:56:10 <SpeedEvil> paywalls
May 04 13:56:30 * lardman reads paper
May 04 13:56:47 <teotwaki> lardman: sup mate
May 04 13:57:04 <lardman> hi teotwaki, I was wondering ;)
May 04 13:57:16 <k273> hi teotwaki
May 04 13:57:19 <teotwaki> how goes?
May 04 13:57:22 <teotwaki> Hi k273 
May 04 13:57:34 <teotwaki> k273: you followed me? Or you just happen to be here?
May 04 13:57:53 <k273> no. I use n900 too
May 04 13:57:58 <k273> =)
May 04 13:58:07 <teotwaki> lardman: so, what's new? Still at uni?
May 04 13:58:35 <lardman> teotwaki: yep, what are you up to these days?
May 04 13:58:45 <SpeedEvil> www.iovs.org/content/40/3/639.full.pdf - page 644 says that for rat retinas they absorb more IR than visible - page 6 second bottom
May 04 13:58:48 <teotwaki> lardman: in the south of france, working in a small voip shop
May 04 13:58:50 <SpeedEvil> left
May 04 13:58:59 <k273> I came here to ask about /usr/bin/input-hildon-desktop that slows down my N900 and DocScrutinizer answered me, teotwaki 
May 04 13:59:09 <teotwaki> cool
May 04 13:59:31 <k273> seems a bad hardware, no cool at all, teotwaki =) 
May 04 13:59:45 <lardman> teotwaki: I trust the South of France has less rain than the South of England at this point in time!
May 04 13:59:46 <k273> *bad keyboard
May 04 14:00:10 <teotwaki> lardman: true
May 04 14:00:14 <lardman> urgh
May 04 14:00:22 <lardman> but :)
May 04 14:00:51 <teotwaki> I'm the product manager / lead dev on a call centre voip software line
May 04 14:01:03 <lardman> cool
May 04 14:01:19 <lardman> re reflectance it looks like it varies from ~1 to ~12% across the IR range
May 04 14:01:27 <SpeedEvil> That reminds me, I need to poke my ISP about setting up SIP, so I can drop my main phone line down to 'low user'
May 04 14:01:40 <lardman> but these biological papers are hard going, need a glossary
May 04 14:01:44 <DocScrutinizer> Hurrian: (slide switch) please check dmesg/syslog
May 04 14:01:59 * SpeedEvil wishes he had a nice paywall.
May 04 14:02:00 <DocScrutinizer> it should have a logline directly from kernel for each closinf
May 04 14:02:00 <Hurrian> DocScrutinizer, I get the usual GPIO open
May 04 14:02:02 <DocScrutinizer> g
May 04 14:02:02 <SpeedEvil> account
May 04 14:02:12 <DocScrutinizer> and opening of that slider-switch
May 04 14:02:44 <Hurrian> yeah, I get the GPIO messages.
May 04 14:02:55 <lardman> SpeedEvil: that site is annoying, can't even save the papers for later reference (easily)
May 04 14:03:00 <DocScrutinizer> then you're rather sure it's a hw defect
May 04 14:03:21 <DocScrutinizer> check for large debris in device, and also tiny debris inside switch
May 04 14:03:41 <SpeedEvil> Flushing the switch may help
May 04 14:03:46 <SpeedEvil> but is possibly unlikely
May 04 14:03:52 <DocScrutinizer> most likely the spring in switch is broken, so the slider doesn't reset to norma position
May 04 14:04:16 <Hurrian> I already spent ~30 minutes blowing into the thing, won't bother. Also, the switch acts normally on the outside.
May 04 14:04:38 <DocScrutinizer> well, I guess the knob has its own spring
May 04 14:05:15 <DocScrutinizer> and the slider notch can move/slide freely into active position even while know is on normal position
May 04 14:05:50 <DocScrutinizer> s/know/knob/
May 04 14:05:50 <infobot> DocScrutinizer meant: and the slider notch can move/slide freely into active position even while knob is on normal position
May 04 14:06:29 <DocScrutinizer> find a replacement switch at digikey/mouseer/whatever
May 04 14:06:54 * lardman wonders why Gnome's file search tool is so rubbish
May 04 14:07:10 <Hurrian> lardman, find / -name [filename]
May 04 14:07:24 <SpeedEvil> There are camera swithc unlock IIRC too
May 04 14:07:42 <DocScrutinizer> or place a blob of plasticine on inside of knob, so slider gets forced back to normal position when you release knob
May 04 14:07:50 <lardman> Hurrian: I know, but still
May 04 14:08:14 <DocScrutinizer> Hurrian: apt-get install find-utils
May 04 14:08:44 <DocScrutinizer> messybox' find is even more rubbish than anything else ;-)
May 04 14:08:57 <k273> teotwaki, have you read my question following our previous -chat about a DE that groups windows according to the task we're trying to finish and not anything else?
May 04 14:09:34 <lardman> while I'm rubbishing, window arranging using the "Start button" key + direction arrows a la Win7 would be nice too
May 04 14:09:44 <Hurrian> people use busybox on the N900?
May 04 14:10:06 <Hurrian> the gnu coreutils and bash are immediate first installs along with fapman
May 04 14:10:09 <DocScrutinizer> Hurrian: nooooo XP
May 04 14:10:18 <teotwaki> k273: no, and not really in the mood nor available to answer those questions.
May 04 14:10:29 <teotwaki> k273: there are loads of UX experts here, I'd suggest you simply ask them.
May 04 14:10:31 <k273> oh.
May 04 14:10:49 <k273> okay teotwaki, thanks for your explanation.
May 04 14:10:50 <DocScrutinizer> Hurrian: however gnu coreutils doesn't provide find
May 04 14:11:18 <Hurrian> ~ $ which find
May 04 14:11:32 <Hurrian> ./usr/bin/find
May 04 14:11:44 <DocScrutinizer> so what? ;-P
May 04 14:11:52 <Hurrian> busybox.
May 04 14:12:01 <DocScrutinizer> indeed
May 04 14:12:11 <Hurrian> k273, how would you go around doing that?
May 04 14:12:21 <Hurrian> grouping related windows together?
May 04 14:12:22 <DocScrutinizer> IroN900:~# ls -l /usr/bin/find
May 04 14:12:24 <DocScrutinizer> lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root 12 2010-06-23 06:13 /usr/bin/find -> /bin/busybox
May 04 14:12:53 <DocScrutinizer> IroN900:~# which find
May 04 14:12:54 <DocScrutinizer> /usr/bin/gnu/find
May 04 14:12:56 <k273> that is exactly my question, Hurrian, but not in an N900 but on a desktop
May 04 14:13:00 <DocScrutinizer> findutils-gnu
May 04 14:13:30 * lardman sees another "smart feature" of the S3 - it phones someone you're writing a message to if you hold the phone to your ear (having become frustrated with all the capacitive kb typos)
May 04 14:13:44 <Hurrian> k273, ah, yeah. i guess you can kludge this into dwm?
May 04 14:13:44 <lardman> I wonder if there's also some ear recognition going on :)
May 04 14:13:48 <DocScrutinizer> OMFG
May 04 14:14:23 * DocScrutinizer hates smart features
May 04 14:14:41 <DocScrutinizer> they *never* are as smart as their designers thought they'd be
May 04 14:14:44 <lardman> I don't know, I think some might be quite useful assuming you know they are there
May 04 14:14:57 <k273> kludge? excuse me I don't understand the word, Hurrian
May 04 14:15:05 <lardman> as long as they are not too smart, otherwise you don't know what they hell is going to happen
May 04 14:15:32 <DocScrutinizer> ~dict kludge
May 04 14:15:34 <infobot> Dictionary 'kludge' (1 of 3): a badly assembled collection of parts hastily assembled to serve some particular purpose (often used to refer to computing systems or software that has been badly put together).
May 04 14:16:45 <k273> I see
May 04 14:16:47 <k273> thanks
May 04 14:17:15 <DocScrutinizer> as soon as it starts with devels/marketing calling something "smart", it's usually oversophisticated useless annoying BS
May 04 14:17:32 <DocScrutinizer> everything less "smart" is just proper reasonable design
May 04 14:17:35 <Hurrian> speaking of which, Touchwiz still looks like ass.
May 04 14:17:47 <lardman> DocScrutinizer: sure
May 04 14:17:52 <Hurrian> it may add useful features, but holy hell does it look like ass.
May 04 14:18:52 <k273> fapman?
May 04 14:19:00 * k273 shakes his head
May 04 14:19:00 <DocScrutinizer> SIC
May 04 14:19:25 <k273> I use busybox only, simply because it's what provided from the beginning...
May 04 14:19:45 <Hurrian> k273, faster application manager
May 04 14:19:48 <DocScrutinizer> well, busybox is a PITA to use for interactive
May 04 14:19:58 <DocScrutinizer> try busybox ps
May 04 14:20:00 <DocScrutinizer> useless
May 04 14:20:13 <k273> busybox ps?
May 04 14:20:13 <DocScrutinizer> try busybox su, nonexistent
May 04 14:20:18 <k273> yes
May 04 14:20:19 <DocScrutinizer> ps
May 04 14:20:22 <DocScrutinizer> ps ps ps
May 04 14:20:26 <k273> yes
May 04 14:20:30 <DocScrutinizer> you never heard of ps?
May 04 14:20:36 <k273> no?
May 04 14:20:44 <k273> I kinda am a noob
May 04 14:20:44 * DocScrutinizer hmmms
May 04 14:21:08 <Hurrian> ./bin/ps
May 04 14:21:09 <Hurrian> works
May 04 14:21:22 <Hurrian> oh
May 04 14:21:24 <DocScrutinizer> for ehatever metrics of "works"
May 04 14:21:30 <Hurrian> switches are missing.
May 04 14:21:36 <DocScrutinizer> yup :-(
May 04 14:21:56 <Hurrian> yeah, many of the busybox applets dummy out the switches to not break when programs expect coreuitls
May 04 14:21:58 <k273> I am also doing several tasks now, XD
May 04 14:22:00 <Hurrian> *coreutils
May 04 14:22:39 <k273> so it's how the faster app man called here...
May 04 14:24:02 <DocScrutinizer> no! it's been fapman, is fapman, and always will stay with that quite appropriate name XP
May 04 14:25:13 <k273> quite.
May 04 14:25:25 <DocScrutinizer> sorry when I burnt my fingers on first touch of fapman so I never will give it a second chance
May 04 14:25:32 <Hurrian> DocScrutinizer: touche.
May 04 14:26:12 <DocScrutinizer> though I heard the immanent problems are all the same still
May 04 14:28:27 <DocScrutinizer> fapman might work for "standard" pkgs and tasks. There are however pkgs *known* to fail with fapman
May 04 14:28:51 <merlin1991> and there's the fun with autoremove
May 04 14:28:57 <DocScrutinizer> and fapman is known to occasionally do actions it better never did
May 04 14:29:02 <k273> oh sure. I have this trouble with 'immvibe' iirc and it only can be removed thru terminal
May 04 14:29:06 <DocScrutinizer> indeed, that'S what I ment
May 04 14:29:27 <DocScrutinizer> meant*
May 04 14:29:55 <k273> but still better from the original pkg man that takes aeons to load
May 04 14:29:59 <k273> imo
May 04 14:30:27 <DocScrutinizer> plus it seems fapman doesn't run apt in run-standalone.sh environment, so any postinst notifiers etc will fail
May 04 14:30:57 <lolcat> fapman? What a strange name
May 04 14:31:23 <DocScrutinizer> the developer seems to have chosen this name very carefully ;-P
May 04 14:31:29 <merlin1991> lolcat: had quite a backlash on tmo when it first came out :D
May 04 14:32:40 <Hurrian> was the dev aware of that?
May 04 14:33:07 <DocScrutinizer> k273: well, if you prefer 2h of fixing your installation to waiting 5min for proper HAM to build up the dependencies database, it's up to your preferences
May 04 14:33:58 <DocScrutinizer> who *was* (is) the dev anyway?
May 04 14:34:11 <lolcat> tmo?
May 04 14:34:16 <k273> lol @very carefully choosing the name
May 04 14:34:17 <DocScrutinizer> ~tmo
May 04 14:34:18 <infobot> i heard tmo is http://talk.maemo.org, or trolls, morons, oxes
May 04 14:34:29 <k273> oxes?
May 04 14:34:52 <merlin1991> yes oxes
May 04 14:35:08 <k273> meaning?
May 04 14:35:19 <DocScrutinizer> probably an ancient word for neutered bull
May 04 14:35:27 <k273> eh lol nvm
May 04 14:35:46 <merlin1991> btw afaik it's oxen not oxes
May 04 14:35:57 <merlin1991> being ox iwth a plural of oxen
May 04 14:36:08 <DocScrutinizer> seems about right
May 04 14:36:23 <DocScrutinizer> infobot: no, tmo is  http://talk.maemo.org, or trolls, morons, oxen
May 04 14:36:24 <infobot> okay, DocScrutinizer
May 04 14:36:36 <lolcat> Can I edit the bot?
May 04 14:36:49 <DocScrutinizer> no, I'll advise it to ignore you
May 04 14:36:54 <k273> DocScrutinizer: you mean there's another (better) terminal emulator and pkg man for N900?
May 04 14:36:59 <DocScrutinizer> ~lock tmo
May 04 14:37:00 <infobot> locking factoid tmo, DocScrutinizer
May 04 14:38:18 <lolcat> DocScrutinizer: How come?
May 04 14:38:36 <Hurrian> ~botsnack
May 04 14:38:36 <infobot> :), Hurrian
May 04 14:38:42 <DocScrutinizer> you're notorious to abuse the bot in a very infantile way
May 04 14:39:19 <k273> *cough* DocScrutinizer, my question? *cough*
May 04 14:39:22 <k273> XD
May 04 14:39:43 <DocScrutinizer> k273: sorry, I don't get that Q
May 04 14:39:59 <DocScrutinizer> better pkg manager: HAM
May 04 14:40:18 <DocScrutinizer> terminal emulator == xterm
May 04 14:40:38 <k273> xterm, sure
May 04 14:41:03 <DocScrutinizer> aka osso-terminal whatever
May 04 14:41:13 <k273> yes
May 04 14:41:21 <DocScrutinizer> there are alternatives, but mostly lightweight
May 04 14:41:27 <k273> no wonder you said I'd still be doing 2hrs on fapman
May 04 14:41:33 * k273 likes lightweight
May 04 14:41:53 <DocScrutinizer> I never said this
May 04 14:41:58 <k273> not a hardcore user, anyway
May 04 14:42:14 <DocScrutinizer> I said you're doing 2h+ *after* fapman messed up your system
May 04 14:42:44 <lolcat> DocScrutinizer: I have never used the bot
May 04 14:43:08 <DocScrutinizer> lolcat: if my memory fails, then sorry
May 04 14:43:28 <DocScrutinizer> I'd have to check chanlogs as of 1 year+ ago
May 04 14:44:01 <DocScrutinizer> lolcat: yes, basically everybody can edit infobot factoids
May 04 14:44:20 <DocScrutinizer> you're not supposed to do so on a silly random basis though
May 04 14:44:39 <k273> oh DocScrutinizer: my system had never been messed up by fapman. If anything, it only made it feel good.
May 04 14:44:43 <DocScrutinizer> esp it's usually no good style to hijack existing factoid keys and redefine them
May 04 14:45:01 <Sicelo> win 30
May 04 14:45:07 <Sicelo> meh.. sorry
May 04 14:45:33 <DocScrutinizer> k273: well, you're still in for the pelasure then
May 04 14:45:33 <k273> I thought it might be in the year 3000
May 04 14:45:45 <k273> XD
May 04 14:46:46 <DocScrutinizer> k273: though odds are fapman already *did* mess up your system, and you just didn't notice yet
May 04 14:46:55 <k273> such as?
May 04 14:47:07 <DocScrutinizer> such as e.g. SIP failing
May 04 14:47:24 <k273> SIP?
May 04 14:47:38 <DocScrutinizer> *sigh* see what I mean?
May 04 14:47:49 <k273> I see that alright
May 04 14:47:51 <k273> XD
May 04 14:48:00 <k273> if you be so kind to elaborate?
May 04 14:48:06 <DocScrutinizer> ~sip
May 04 14:48:06 <infobot> well, sip is Session Initiation Protocol, http://www.cs.columbia.edu/sip/ (see RFC 3261) It's HIP to be SIP!
May 04 14:48:14 <DocScrutinizer> aka VoIP
May 04 14:48:19 <k273> oh
May 04 14:48:20 <DocScrutinizer> *NOT* skype
May 04 14:48:26 <k273> yes
May 04 14:48:38 <k273> I never VoIP nor Skype
May 04 14:48:54 <DocScrutinizer> then odds are you never notice fapman breaking it
May 04 14:49:02 <k273> just as u said.
May 04 14:49:07 <k273> wait
May 04 14:49:20 <k273> I have this problem:
May 04 14:49:58 <DocScrutinizer> http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=70875&highlight=sip
May 04 14:50:37 <k273> my root still has 50-60MB available, but anytime I want to install new programs or update existing ones it always said 'phone memory' (or something like that) full.
May 04 14:50:43 <DocScrutinizer> The following packages were automatically installed and are no longer required:
May 04 14:50:44 <DocScrutinizer>   rtcom-accounts-plugin-facebook rtcom-skype-emoticons-theme rtcom-accounts-voip-support as-utils cherry libshiboken0.3 pyside-qt4-gui modest-home-applet microb-geolocation pyside-qt4-core libpyside0.3 
May 04 14:51:06 <k273> looool
May 04 14:51:13 <k273> yeah I see what you mean
May 04 14:51:17 <DocScrutinizer> all those get occasionally autoremoved by fapman, and it's up to you to figure what of your device's functions will fail on that
May 04 14:51:31 <k273> kk
May 04 14:53:53 <k273> so back to my problem
May 04 14:53:57 <k273> my root still has 50-60MB available, but anytime I want to install new programs or update existing ones it always said 'phone memory' (or something like that) full.
May 04 14:54:13 <k273> does that has anything to do with fapman?
May 04 14:54:17 <DocScrutinizer> df -h
May 04 14:54:23 <k273> wait
May 04 14:54:37 <DocScrutinizer> df -h /home
May 04 14:54:38 <DocScrutinizer> even
May 04 14:55:21 <DocScrutinizer> (does that has anything to do with fapman?) easy to rule out, do same thing via HAM
May 04 14:55:33 <k273> yes
May 04 14:55:50 <DocScrutinizer> you'll just have to live with the lost 5min of your life time
May 04 14:56:18 <k273>  /opt is 99%
May 04 14:56:27 <DocScrutinizer> that's your answer then
May 04 14:57:10 <k273> how do I rectify this thing?
May 04 14:57:13 <DocScrutinizer> now please don't ask how to clean /opt, as I can't give any sound advice
May 04 14:57:50 <DocScrutinizer> you probably just installed too many poorly written monster apps
May 04 14:57:52 <k273> mmcblkxxx is also 99% but i think it isn't the issue
May 04 14:58:07 <k273> i see DocScrutinizer 
May 04 14:58:14 <DocScrutinizer> well that's /home aka /opt
May 04 14:58:24 <k273> yes
May 04 14:58:31 <DocScrutinizer> mmcblk0p2 or sth
May 04 14:58:42 <k273> yes
May 04 14:59:05 <DocScrutinizer> you either got a lot of litter in your $HOME
May 04 14:59:16 <k273> mhhmm?
May 04 14:59:27 <DocScrutinizer> or you spammed /opt with installations of apps that load off lots of data like maps etc there
May 04 14:59:33 <DocScrutinizer> games often do
May 04 14:59:41 <k273> I see
May 04 14:59:47 <k273> fsck games
May 04 14:59:58 <DocScrutinizer> du -sh /opt
May 04 14:59:58 <k273> i'll delete them all
May 04 15:00:15 <DocScrutinizer> wait
May 04 15:00:25 <jonwil> best advice to free up space on /opt is to remove apps you no longer want
May 04 15:00:27 <jonwil> uninstall them
May 04 15:00:36 <chem|st> "kill'em all and let god sort'em out" hehe
May 04 15:00:58 <chem|st> have a nice weekend
May 04 15:01:08 <DocScrutinizer> du -shx /opt
May 04 15:01:14 <DocScrutinizer> du -shx /home
May 04 15:01:18 <DocScrutinizer> du -shx /home/user
May 04 15:01:32 * chem|st is off to the 3rd wedding saturday in a row...
May 04 15:01:34 <DocScrutinizer> chem|st: o/
May 04 15:01:41 <DocScrutinizer> yay, fun
May 04 15:01:50 <chem|st> 8D
May 04 15:02:01 <DocScrutinizer> what you gonna wear?
May 04 15:02:43 <k273> while cleaning the phone?
May 04 15:02:51 <k273> prolly just a tshirt and a short
May 04 15:02:54 <k273> XD
May 04 15:02:56 <DocScrutinizer> k273: a du -hx /opt might give you a clue
May 04 15:03:35 <k273> tell me about it DocScrutinizer 
May 04 15:03:49 <k273> you helped me a lot and I don't know how to say thanks
May 04 15:04:10 <DocScrutinizer> k273: du -x /opt|sort -n
May 04 15:04:12 <k273> already seeing rows of unending files here
May 04 15:04:51 <DocScrutinizer> du -hx /opt|less
May 04 15:05:49 <DocScrutinizer> du -hsx /opt/*|less
May 04 15:06:00 <DocScrutinizer> du -hsx /opt/*/*
May 04 15:08:27 <DocScrutinizer> ooh, just in case: in less pressing "h" gives help, "q" quits
May 04 15:08:49 <DocScrutinizer> space and "b" page down and up
May 04 15:09:54 <DocScrutinizer> cursor keys do what you'd expect them to do
May 04 15:10:24 <k273> sorry DocScrutinizer 
May 04 15:10:26 <k273> dced
May 04 15:10:31 <DocScrutinizer> oops
May 04 15:10:38 <k273> yeah
May 04 15:10:45 <DocScrutinizer> http://mg.pov.lt/maemo-irclog
May 04 15:11:04 <k273> okay I better sort my programs out now
May 04 15:11:54 <k273> you've been of great help, DocScrutinizer thanks a lot
May 04 15:12:05 <DocScrutinizer> but basically I just suggested you use >> du -hsx /opt/* << and >> du -x /opt|sort -n|less <<
May 04 15:12:17 <k273> yes
May 04 15:12:43 <k273> I already can see the monsters 
May 04 15:12:49 <DocScrutinizer> good
May 04 15:13:16 <k273> shoulda shown up here from the very first beginning of my n900 purchase
May 04 15:13:20 <k273> tsk
May 04 15:13:25 <DocScrutinizer> now just find out which app to uninstall to get rid of those
May 04 15:13:30 <k273> yes
May 04 15:13:36 <k273> thanks a lot, DocScrutinizer 
May 04 15:13:39 <k273> =)
May 04 15:13:39 <DocScrutinizer> yw
May 04 15:13:58 <k273> have a good day, I have a long night before me XD
May 04 15:14:07 <DocScrutinizer> :-D
May 04 15:14:22 * DocScrutinizer tries to get afk and do some nice shopping
May 04 15:14:48 <merlin1991> nice and shopping in the same sentence?
May 04 15:14:59 <DocScrutinizer> :nod: :-S
May 04 15:15:34 <DocScrutinizer> in the former days shopping been a joy, now it's basically a PITA no matter which approach you take
May 04 15:15:52 <merlin1991> as fast as possible seems to be the best approach for me
May 04 15:16:01 <DocScrutinizer> that's the plan
May 04 15:16:48 <DocScrutinizer> rush in, get 2 pcs wrangler $MY-JEANS-SIZE, out afap
May 04 15:17:58 <DocScrutinizer> I might even avoid trying in
May 04 15:18:29 <DocScrutinizer> o/
May 04 15:18:33 <DocScrutinizer> bbl
May 04 15:56:22 * lardman heads home
May 04 15:56:26 <lardman> have a nice evening all
May 04 15:59:43 <lokimotive> hey
May 04 16:10:29 <freemangordon> Pali, ping
May 04 16:10:40 <Pali> freemangordon, pong
May 04 16:11:06 <freemangordon> Pali, I am trying to build u-boot, have the error Unmet build dependencies: kernel-bootimg
May 04 16:11:26 <freemangordon> installign kernel-power-booting didn't help
May 04 16:11:31 <Pali> ah, yes
May 04 16:11:38 <freemangordon> :)
May 04 16:12:52 <Pali> freemangordon, dsc package of kernel-bootimg is now on: http://atrey.karlin.mff.cuni.cz/~pali/
May 04 16:13:02 <freemangordon> Pali, well, I could use the old "make" method, no worries. 
May 04 16:13:12 <Pali> it contains only zImage of stock nokia kernel
May 04 16:13:24 <freemangordon> Anyway, I need KP50 :)
May 04 16:13:38 <freemangordon> will do it by hand
May 04 16:14:10 <Pali> if you want to create combined image u-boot + kp50 (not nokia stock kernel) replace path of stock zImage with kp image
May 04 16:14:22 <Pali> u-boot use this image for kernel /boot/zImage-2.6.28-omap1
May 04 16:14:30 <Pali> when creating combined image
May 04 16:14:44 <freemangordon> Pali, I now hout to do it, no worries
May 04 16:14:50 <freemangordon> *how
May 04 16:15:05 <Pali> ok
May 04 16:15:40 <freemangordon> Pali, I great berakthrough re thumb2 - it turned out that a bit in Aux ctrl register which needs to be set in order arm thumb errata to take effect is not allowed to be written by kernel ;)
May 04 16:16:16 <freemangordon> But... there is SMC call for that, and it works perfect when called from u-boot
May 04 16:16:58 <Pali> so I belive that thumb2 will work :)
May 04 16:17:22 <Pali> btw, why it is not possible to enable it in kernel?
May 04 16:18:03 <Pali> u-boot load kernel image and start executing it
May 04 16:18:07 <freemangordon> because it is not accessible outside of the secure world, check here http://infocenter.arm.com/help/index.jsp?topic=/com.arm.doc.ddi0344k/Bgbffjhh.html. 
May 04 16:18:34 <freemangordon> And kernel is running in non-secure world
May 04 16:19:44 <freemangordon> but the code is like it is in secure. I will re-write the patch to issue a SMC call, instead of directly write to C0 co-processor
May 04 16:20:16 <freemangordon> But first I want to see how will Ubuntu behave when IBE bit is set
May 04 16:20:36 <freemangordon> with its 3.x kernel 
May 04 16:24:55 <Pali> freemangordon, if thumb2 will be work, can we compile kernel with thumb support?
May 04 16:25:24 <freemangordon> I think yes, but why we need that?
May 04 16:26:47 <freemangordon> Pali, I am going to prepare a patch for u-boot which enables IBE bit
May 04 16:27:11 <freemangordon> will make a MR when ready
May 04 16:27:46 <Pali> freemangordon, if we decrease size of kernel image, we can increase size of u-boot and enable support for onenand code (e.g. ubifs rootfs reading, flashing, ...)
May 04 16:28:23 <freemangordon> aah, yes. 
May 04 16:28:59 <freemangordon> Pali, but I think first we should confirm thumb to be stable :D
May 04 16:29:06 <Pali> yes
May 04 16:46:04 <freemangordon> Pali, you've lowered the boot menu delay, where I am supposed to increase it?
May 04 16:46:35 <Pali> include/configs/nokia_rx51.h search for bootmenu_dealy
May 04 16:46:40 <Pali> *delay
May 04 16:46:49 <freemangordon> ok, thanks
May 04 16:47:13 <freemangordon> Pali, not this one
May 04 16:47:32 <freemangordon> I meant the delay for the screen where die id is shown
May 04 16:47:47 <Pali> I did not touched that
May 04 16:48:04 <Pali> so maybe some upstream changes...
May 04 16:48:17 <freemangordon> aaah, I had some mmc errors, that is why it was taking about 5 secs or so :(
May 04 16:48:18 <Pali> ... I rebased rx51 patches more times on u-boot master
May 04 16:48:33 <freemangordon> and it is fixed now :)
May 04 16:48:47 <Pali> you can disable autostart bootmenu
May 04 16:49:01 <Pali> and you will see all messages
May 04 16:49:30 <Pali> you can start bootmenu in u-boot console (command bootmenu)
May 04 16:49:47 <freemangordon> how?
May 04 16:50:25 <freemangordon> btw is there some delay() or sleep() function?
May 04 16:51:49 <Pali> #define CONFIG_MENUCMD - this enable bootmenu
May 04 16:52:07 <freemangordon> ok, thanks
May 04 17:05:39 <freemangordon> Pali, is it possible to move bootmenu by few lines down?
May 04 17:06:14 <Pali> what do you mean? move down and do not clean first N lines?
May 04 17:06:23 <freemangordon> yep
May 04 17:06:34 <Pali> uh, maybe yes, but needs rewrite code
May 04 17:06:40 <Pali> now u-boot clearing full screen
May 04 17:06:46 <freemangordon> so we can have a nice screen with die id and cpu info
May 04 17:06:48 <Pali> not trivial
May 04 17:07:06 <Pali> if you run u-boot console you can show this info
May 04 17:07:17 <freemangordon> btw print_cpuinfor is enabled in config, but never caleld
May 04 17:07:32 <freemangordon> how?
May 04 17:07:48 <Pali> in u-boot console run: bdinfo
May 04 17:08:04 <freemangordon> no, that gives a totally different info
May 04 17:30:15 <freemangordon> Pali, here https://www.gitorious.org/~freemangordon/u-boot-shr/freemangordons-u-boot
May 04 17:30:24 <freemangordon> shall I request a nerge?
May 04 17:30:36 <freemangordon> s/nerge/merge
May 04 17:31:04 <Pali> I will rebase your changes
May 04 17:31:22 <Pali> upstream u-boot devs wants clear patches
May 04 17:31:38 <Pali> so I will mix them
May 04 17:31:49 <freemangordon> But i cloned your branch an hour ago
May 04 17:32:23 <freemangordon> what needs to be rebased
May 04 17:33:03 <Pali> your changes
May 04 17:33:14 <Pali> mix your changes into rx51 board commit
May 04 17:33:39 <Pali> u-boot devs do not want to see new board code in more patches
May 04 17:33:57 <freemangordon> Pali, ok, it is up to you
May 04 17:34:00 <freemangordon> :)
May 04 17:34:03 <Pali> yes :)
May 04 17:34:17 <freemangordon> but lets first see if it has any effect in Ubuntu
May 04 17:35:01 <Pali> ok
May 04 17:35:09 <Pali> I found one problem in your patch
May 04 17:35:23 <freemangordon> which is?
May 04 17:35:33 <Pali> you converting emu_hal_params_rx51 to u32*
May 04 17:36:05 <freemangordon> that function is copy/cat from original u-boot code, let me find the function
May 04 17:36:15 <freemangordon> ok, almost 
May 04 17:36:43 <freemangordon> yeah, search for omap3_emu_romcode_call
May 04 17:36:44 <Pali> in C specification is written that between more variables in struct can be some placeholder
May 04 17:37:09 <Pali> so you cannot cast struct { int, int, int, int } to int[4]
May 04 17:37:29 <freemangordon> Pali, I used the code already present in u-boot, search for the above function
May 04 17:37:41 <Pali> ok
May 04 17:37:58 <freemangordon> Plai, it is not emu_hal_params_rx51 but &emu_hal_params_rx51
May 04 17:38:16 <freemangordon> Pali ^^^
May 04 17:38:39 <freemangordon> ok, &emu_romcode_params
May 04 17:38:53 <Jade> hi
May 04 17:38:56 <freemangordon> Or I am not understanding
May 04 17:38:57 <Pali> struct { int first, int second, int third }, between "first" and "seconds" can be some padding
May 04 17:39:13 <Pali> compiler can add some free space between struct variables
May 04 17:39:38 <Pali> so this struct is not same as array of 3 integers
May 04 17:40:04 <freemangordon> aah, now I got it. Yes, in theory, but oroginal u-boot code uses the same
May 04 17:40:53 <Pali> could be, gcc in this case (for integers) maybe do not add nothing
May 04 17:41:14 <freemangordon> you can search for emu_hal_params (without _rx51) for the original declaration
May 04 17:41:17 <Pali> but correct code is: struct { int first:32, int second:32, int third:32 }
May 04 17:41:33 <freemangordon> ok, agree
May 04 17:41:54 <freemangordon> well, change it then
May 04 17:41:56 <Pali> when adding info about bits (:32) then compiler mustnt add space
May 04 17:41:58 <Pali> ok
May 04 17:42:35 <freemangordon> Pali, would you do the same patch in KP?
May 04 17:43:47 <freemangordon> Pali, BTW what we were discussing is called "structure member aligment" and the default aligment is the CPU word size AFAIK
May 04 17:43:56 <freemangordon> or byte aligment
May 04 17:44:22 <freemangordon> in either cases there would be no extra bytes in the structure we were discussing
May 04 17:44:52 <freemangordon> no matter of the compiler 
May 04 17:45:08 <freemangordon> *alignment
May 04 17:45:31 <Pali> I think that in C language specification is not written more, only that compiler may add
May 04 17:47:43 <freemangordon> anyway, I agree that your notation is better, maybe upstream on omap3/board.c should be fixed too(or wherever the original structure declaration was)
May 04 17:48:39 <freemangordon> Pali, would you prepare a new u-boot version, so the guys with installed Ubuntu to test it and confirm if it solves SIGILL crashes
May 04 17:49:03 <Pali> ok
May 04 17:59:43 <DocScrutinizer51> freemangordon: (struct member alignment) this depends on arch, and is generally a very poor idea to exploit or rely on, outside of #ifdef armel
May 04 18:00:09 <freemangordon> DocScrutinizer51, agree, I am not arguing about it
May 04 18:00:41 <freemangordon> DocScrutinizer51, BTW did you read backscroll?
May 04 18:01:08 <DocScrutinizer51> since 18:00 (cest)
May 04 18:01:37 <DocScrutinizer51> I'm still not too happy about general switching to thumb(2)
May 04 18:02:11 <freemangordon> Well, lets see how much slower it will be once thumb errata actually works
May 04 18:02:17 <DocScrutinizer51> since exactly stuff like the above alignment and similar would possibly break on such switch
May 04 18:02:21 <freemangordon> and what is your reasoning?
May 04 18:02:37 <freemangordon> no, interworking should be ok
May 04 18:03:17 <DocScrutinizer51> you say *should*
May 04 18:03:23 <DocScrutinizer51> :-P
May 04 18:03:40 <DocScrutinizer51> I say 'risk'
May 04 18:04:22 <freemangordon> well, if the compiler works, then I see no reason. BTW have in mind I was running thumb2 compiled stuff on my primary device for a month or so without actually errata to be enabled
May 04 18:04:39 <freemangordon> errata workaround
May 04 18:05:42 <DocScrutinizer51> well, RL results are basically indetermined when doing such a switch
May 04 18:06:18 <DocScrutinizer51> you're entering a whole new world with none of your system rocks been tested yet
May 04 18:06:37 * freemangordon wanders what exactly TI guy who wrote the workaround was thinking, when it is clearly stated in ARM docs that IBE bit is not accessible from outside the secure world
May 04 18:06:56 <DocScrutinizer51> and all your verification for now is you running it on one machine with your selection of usecases
May 04 18:07:21 <freemangordon> DocScrutinizer51, there is no verification at all so far :). 
May 04 18:07:44 <freemangordon> It is yet to be done
May 04 18:07:58 <freemangordon> once we have all the pieces together
May 04 18:08:15 <DocScrutinizer51> users are reluctant to jump on CSSU and start to blame it for random faults they run into
May 04 18:08:33 <freemangordon> (u-boot, kernel with errata workaround enabled and thumb-compiled binaries)
May 04 18:08:36 <DocScrutinizer51> figure what's the tak when we switch to thumb globally
May 04 18:08:38 <freemangordon> so?
May 04 18:08:54 <freemangordon> it will be no different 
May 04 18:08:59 <freemangordon> difference*
May 04 18:09:15 <freemangordon> complainers will complain 
May 04 18:09:41 <DocScrutinizer51> it will, as then we can't answer 'cssu is NOT touching ICD'
May 04 18:09:49 <freemangordon> and we can always revert, if it turns out to be unstable at the end
May 04 18:10:02 <DocScrutinizer51> thumb switch touches everything
May 04 18:10:15 <freemangordon> ICD?
May 04 18:10:27 <DocScrutinizer51> I'm not going to evaluate if it's stable
May 04 18:11:00 <freemangordon> DocScrutinizer51, noone forces you, there is cssu-devel repo for that stuff
May 04 18:11:21 <DocScrutinizer51> a switch to thumb is definitely WAAAY beyond the scope of CSSU
May 04 18:11:40 <Pali> freemangordon, u-boot deb packages are updated here: http://atrey.karlin.mff.cuni.cz/~pali/u-boot/
May 04 18:11:50 <Pali> not tested yes, because my n900 is charging now
May 04 18:11:54 <Pali> *yet
May 04 18:11:59 <DocScrutinizer51> you rather should start a fork and call it tinymaemo
May 04 18:12:03 <freemangordon> DocScrutinizer51, well, lets leave that discussion for the next CSSU team meeting
May 04 18:12:26 <Pali> when will be next meeting?
May 04 18:12:28 <freemangordon> It is not only me and you who decide that stuff
May 04 18:12:40 <freemangordon> Pali, NFC, but there should be one :)
May 04 18:12:43 <DocScrutinizer51> it's neither of us
May 04 18:12:49 <freemangordon> :nod:
May 04 18:12:53 <DocScrutinizer51> it's already defined
May 04 18:13:26 <freemangordon> DocScrutinizer51, really, I don't want to continue that discussion here and now
May 04 18:13:40 <Pali> freemangordon, try if u-boot image is working
May 04 18:13:48 <freemangordon> Pali, ok
May 04 18:13:48 <Pali> and if fixing thumb
May 04 18:14:00 <DocScrutinizer51> this is definitely no 'update' to ship bugfixes or augment functionality, in a sense of SSU continued by Comunity
May 04 18:14:15 <Pali> my battery is totally empty...
May 04 18:14:24 <freemangordon> Pali, Ubuntu is still installing :(
May 04 18:14:41 <Pali> where is image of ubuntu?
May 04 18:15:37 <DocScrutinizer51> btw I fail to see how uBoot can do things that kernel couldn't
May 04 18:15:37 <Pali> I'd like to prepair one partition of sd card for ubuntu before battery will charge
May 04 18:16:30 <freemangordon> use the instructions from here http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=82819
May 04 18:17:22 <freemangordon> DocScrutinizer51, we have the patch only for u-boot so far
May 04 18:17:31 <freemangordon> read the backscroll again :)
May 04 18:18:06 <freemangordon> [20:40] <freemangordon> Pali, would you do the same patch in KP?
May 04 18:18:12 <freemangordon> DocScrutinizer51 ^^^
May 04 18:19:25 <Pali> freemangordon, I have not idea in which file/section/function can be added similar kernel patch
May 04 18:19:40 <freemangordon> Pali, GF came, won't have time to test u-boot now :)
May 04 18:19:59 <Pali> ok
May 04 18:20:00 <freemangordon> Pali, ok, I will do it (not that I have idea :D )
May 04 18:21:29 <DocScrutinizer51> freemangordon: I'd say the fact you weren't able to find/build a clear testcase to reproduce the thumb problem during that months you're running it without patches, well that's rather unfortunate as it doesn't provide any method to even test your patches for efficience
May 04 18:23:29 <DocScrutinizer51> the reason why thumb isn't used so far, the reason for any mutex in kernel, the reason for checking maloc returncode - all the same to make system not break on those rare niche cases
May 04 18:24:15 <freemangordon> DocScrutinizer51, will test Ubuntu 12.04 for at least initial testing, lets see how it will behave, will think of more cmplicated test cases after Ubuntu does not SIGILL
May 04 18:24:43 <DocScrutinizer51> we're not interested in a 'runs 99.8% of the time' system. That's what we got with windows
May 04 18:28:07 <DocScrutinizer51> somebody found there's a problem, he probably managed to deliver a trace where that problem gets visible, and common sense been to avoid thumb to fix the issue. If you want to come up with a patch, you need a testcase that proves efficiency of that patch
May 04 18:29:42 <DocScrutinizer51> 'running system for one month without issues' obviusly isn't, as you stated by your own comment
May 04 18:31:26 <DocScrutinizer51> you need a testbed that 100% reproduces the problem when your patch is missing, and of course your patch needs to change it to 100% OK
May 04 18:33:33 <DocScrutinizer51> then we still have  general risk associated to such a switch in architecture, which by itself will rule out doing that migration for productive systems
May 04 18:34:58 <DocScrutinizer51> we've seen things break more than once on 'simpler' transitions like e.g. a mere update of gcc
May 04 18:42:13 <kerio> 99.8% of the times, it works 100% of the time
May 04 20:04:14 <f3bruary> hi guys
May 04 20:04:52 <f3bruary> beford, hi
May 04 20:05:00 <beford> sup
May 04 20:05:01 <beford> xD
May 04 20:06:02 <f3bruary> My n900 got stuck in a reboot loop after trying to install pwnphone image. I reflashed emmc+rootfs. Now every reboot start at wizard and SIM card is not detected
May 04 20:06:09 <f3bruary> can anybody help ?
May 04 20:08:38 <f3bruary> not everybody at once...
May 04 20:09:21 <beford> you may need to wait a little 
May 04 20:09:56 <f3bruary> 286 people and you have to wait ?
May 04 20:10:13 <f3bruary> :(
May 04 20:15:23 <Sicelo> lol
May 04 20:15:31 <Sicelo> ~ask
May 04 20:15:32 <infobot> Questions in the channel should be specific, informative, complete, concise, and on-topic.  Don't ask if you can ask a question first.  Don't ask if a person is there; just ask what you intended to ask them.  Better questions more frequently yield better answers.  We are all here voluntarily or against our will.
May 04 20:15:53 <Sicelo> f3bruary: we all have Real Lives 
May 04 20:16:14 <f3bruary> really ?
May 04 20:16:35 <f3bruary> infobot, have you seen Agobot ?
May 04 20:17:02 <f3bruary> Sicelo, How can I make my question more detailed ?
May 04 20:17:20 <Sicelo> what's pwphone image?
May 04 20:17:28 <f3bruary> google it
May 04 20:17:43 <f3bruary> suite of pentesting tools
May 04 20:17:55 <Sazpaimon> why is the harmattan forum on TMO still described as "The future release, codenamed Harmattan.
May 04 20:17:55 <Sazpaimon> "
May 04 20:19:07 <Sicelo> hah! now i must google
May 04 20:19:58 <f3bruary> I googles too...
May 04 20:20:12 <f3bruary> hard to search for " n900 stuck in wizard loop"
May 04 20:20:24 <f3bruary> googled*
May 04 20:21:18 <Sicelo> f3bruary:
May 04 20:21:20 <Sicelo> ~flashing
May 04 20:21:21 <infobot> hmm... maemo-flashing is http://wiki.maemo.org/Updating_the_tablet_firmware
May 04 20:21:29 <f3bruary> followed it
May 04 20:21:31 <Sicelo> ^^ flash them in the correct order
May 04 20:21:34 <f3bruary> I did
May 04 20:23:00 <f3bruary> this too http://www.mynokian900.com/2011/03/flashing-the-emmc-rootfs-on-my-nokia-n900
May 04 20:25:01 <DocScrutinizer> f3bruary: basically nobody here can help you with pwnphone
May 04 20:25:28 <DocScrutinizer> a full reflash usually shall fix things
May 04 20:25:44 <DocScrutinizer> if it doesn't, you failed on correct full flashing procedure
May 04 20:25:59 <f3bruary> like I said, I did that, so there's no trace of pwnphone so I don't believe that's the issue
May 04 20:26:08 <f3bruary> I don't need help with pwnphone
May 04 20:26:11 <DocScrutinizer> it's probably beyond this channel's scope to make pwnphone work
May 04 20:26:11 <f3bruary> I reflashed
May 04 20:26:16 <f3bruary> multiple times
May 04 20:26:33 <DocScrutinizer> see above then, you did something wrong
May 04 20:26:38 <DocScrutinizer> on flashing
May 04 20:26:42 <f3bruary> hmm
May 04 20:26:53 <f3bruary> It's not that hard
May 04 20:27:00 <f3bruary> how can I do it wrong
May 04 20:27:03 <DocScrutinizer> there's no known instance where flashing didn't help to fix sw induced problems
May 04 20:27:12 <f3bruary> ok
May 04 20:27:23 <f3bruary> well has anybody experienced this problem ?
May 04 20:27:29 <DocScrutinizer> (how can I do it wrong) you'd be amazed to see what we've seen here
May 04 20:27:33 <f3bruary> wizard each reboot...
May 04 20:27:46 <DocScrutinizer> well, this wizard is normal
May 04 20:27:54 <f3bruary> not every time...
May 04 20:28:00 <DocScrutinizer> if it's date/time/locale wizard
May 04 20:28:03 <DocScrutinizer> of maemo
May 04 20:28:04 <f3bruary> yeah
May 04 20:28:18 <f3bruary> but now it does it every time I reboot
May 04 20:28:25 <DocScrutinizer> that's odd
May 04 20:28:40 <f3bruary> that's the issue
May 04 20:28:48 <Sicelo> f3bruary: because your battery is probably loose .. i get that recently on mine too
May 04 20:28:57 <DocScrutinizer> it should do that only whan your realtime clock failed, which it isn't supposed to do unless you remove battery
May 04 20:29:55 <f3bruary> well, that's kinda weird, but I just moved those 2 pieces that hold the battery to keep it tighter
May 04 20:30:03 <f3bruary> cause it has always been loose
May 04 20:30:23 <f3bruary> I hated that it fell out each time I removed the cover
May 04 20:30:26 <DocScrutinizer> I suggest to remove battery for >2h and then re-insert and reboot, and see if RTC got fixed in a way it will survive next boot
May 04 20:30:48 <DocScrutinizer> errr
May 04 20:31:25 <DocScrutinizer> what exactly did you do to battery and sisters?
May 04 20:31:34 <f3bruary> sisters ?
May 04 20:31:38 <DocScrutinizer> ;-D
May 04 20:32:32 <DocScrutinizer> did you just bend the steel latches at "bottom" end of battery?
May 04 20:32:39 <f3bruary> yeah a little
May 04 20:32:44 <f3bruary> tiny bit
May 04 20:32:46 <DocScrutinizer> should be safe
May 04 20:32:56 <f3bruary> cause the battery was too loose
May 04 20:33:04 <f3bruary> now it holds it better
May 04 20:33:04 <DocScrutinizer> I did as well, on a used phone I recently bought
May 04 20:33:11 <DocScrutinizer> :-)
May 04 20:33:12 <DocScrutinizer> yeah
May 04 20:33:46 <DocScrutinizer> check your battery contacts, they might get tired
May 04 20:34:03 <f3bruary> I just pushed them back a little
May 04 20:34:35 <f3bruary> now it's the same again
May 04 20:34:40 <DocScrutinizer> I.E. the distance between the spring on left and on right side of each contact slot in battery should be considerably lower than thickness of the battery contact blades
May 04 20:34:41 <f3bruary> let's see if that helps
May 04 20:34:44 <f3bruary> which I doubt
May 04 20:35:20 <DocScrutinizer> they might even touch 
May 04 20:35:44 <f3bruary> hmm it's going to the wizard, which is expected
May 04 20:36:16 <DocScrutinizer> inserting something into the slot that's either not centered or simply "too thick" will bend those springs apart, and this can cause lots of troubles
May 04 20:36:41 <f3bruary> oh yeah, and it still won't detect the SIM card
May 04 20:37:29 <DocScrutinizer> ooh, another unrelated problem?
May 04 20:37:39 <Sicelo> of course SIM is another problem. reboot now to see that you won't get wizard again
May 04 20:37:45 <f3bruary> not that I noticed so far
May 04 20:37:55 <f3bruary> temporarily it could not start apps
May 04 20:38:00 <f3bruary> but that's over now
May 04 20:38:12 <DocScrutinizer> :-/
May 04 20:38:16 <DocScrutinizer> :-S
May 04 20:38:30 <Sicelo> looks like your N900 has been throught a lot ..
May 04 20:38:37 <DocScrutinizer> could you try booting without SIM?
May 04 20:38:50 <DocScrutinizer> tehn rebooting without SIM and without removing battery
May 04 20:39:03 <DocScrutinizer> and see if wizard on 2nd boot
May 04 20:39:08 <f3bruary> I think it's going for the wizard again
May 04 20:39:13 <f3bruary> long loading time
May 04 20:39:25 <DocScrutinizer> (obviously on first boot wizard is expected no matter what you did to fix the problem)
May 04 20:39:57 <f3bruary> this is the first reboot after bending the battery thingies back
May 04 20:40:10 <f3bruary> have yet to try with removeing sim
May 04 20:40:28 <DocScrutinizer> first do the second boot for bending action
May 04 20:40:33 <DocScrutinizer> to check
May 04 20:40:42 <f3bruary> that's what I'm doing now
May 04 20:40:43 <DocScrutinizer> only then try SIM removal
May 04 20:40:47 <DocScrutinizer> with 2 boots
May 04 20:40:59 <f3bruary> hmm
May 04 20:41:02 <f3bruary> no wizard
May 04 20:41:09 <Sicelo> toldya :P
May 04 20:41:12 <f3bruary> but the loading took longer than usual
May 04 20:41:23 <f3bruary> this is still with sim inserted
May 04 20:41:59 <DocScrutinizer> does it take >60s from "NOKIA" to moving-dots to black screen to something reasonable on screen?
May 04 20:42:17 <f3bruary> the nokia screen passes fast
May 04 20:42:25 <f3bruary> then 60+ sec for dots
May 04 20:42:31 <DocScrutinizer> well, "first time" boot takes some minutes
May 04 20:42:45 <DocScrutinizer> that'S expected
May 04 20:43:14 <f3bruary> this was a reboot
May 04 20:43:18 <f3bruary> without taking battery out
May 04 20:43:21 <DocScrutinizer> it's initializing several things on your system
May 04 20:43:26 <f3bruary> so 2dn boot
May 04 20:43:28 <f3bruary> 2nd*
May 04 20:43:36 <DocScrutinizer> well, it was first boot without wizard
May 04 20:43:42 <f3bruary> oh like that
May 04 20:43:43 <f3bruary> ok
May 04 20:43:47 <f3bruary> I'll reboot again
May 04 20:43:57 <DocScrutinizer> don't be to stern with it ;-D
May 04 20:44:03 <f3bruary> haha
May 04 20:44:10 <f3bruary> it's a tough device
May 04 20:44:22 <f3bruary> I bought it a while ago
May 04 20:44:28 <f3bruary> december
May 04 20:44:59 <DocScrutinizer> so what's status of SIM now?
May 04 20:45:04 <f3bruary> I'm familiar with linux, so I could to cli stuff, play around with it much
May 04 20:45:10 <f3bruary> still busy
May 04 20:45:16 <DocScrutinizer> mhm
May 04 20:45:43 <DocScrutinizer> well, it's probably optifying things
May 04 20:46:10 <f3bruary> +60 sec again
May 04 20:46:16 <DocScrutinizer> I'm not all sure it likes getting interupted on optification process
May 04 20:46:33 <f3bruary> I'm not
May 04 20:46:45 <f3bruary> ok booted
May 04 20:46:51 <f3bruary> still no sim detected
May 04 20:46:53 <DocScrutinizer> without wizard?
May 04 20:46:58 <f3bruary> yes
May 04 20:47:11 <DocScrutinizer> what's the icon in status bar for SIM?
May 04 20:47:28 <f3bruary> icon that looks like a sim card
May 04 20:47:43 <f3bruary> I'm gonna explode if you tell me it means something else
May 04 20:47:57 <DocScrutinizer> with a red bar across?
May 04 20:48:02 <f3bruary> yeah
May 04 20:48:14 <DocScrutinizer> means "no SIM", indeed
May 04 20:48:19 <f3bruary> ah ok
May 04 20:48:33 <f3bruary> shall I take it out ?
May 04 20:48:36 <DocScrutinizer> might also mean "modem got general trouble"
May 04 20:48:37 <Sicelo> tried a different sim on the N900? 
May 04 20:48:43 <f3bruary> no
May 04 20:48:56 <DocScrutinizer> modem operating directly from battery
May 04 20:49:14 <f3bruary> I'm gonna shutdown and take SIM out
May 04 20:49:30 <DocScrutinizer> so even short dropouts due to poor contact of battery will cause modem reset, which results in "no SIM"
May 04 20:49:53 <DocScrutinizer> I gaher you boot with charger/PC plugged in?
May 04 20:50:42 <f3bruary> no..
May 04 20:50:51 <f3bruary> it's almost full though
May 04 20:50:53 <DocScrutinizer> oh, only battery?
May 04 20:50:56 <f3bruary> yeah
May 04 20:50:59 <DocScrutinizer> good
May 04 20:51:13 <DocScrutinizer> hi javispedro 
May 04 20:51:45 <javispedro> moo
May 04 20:52:57 <DocScrutinizer> f3bruary: I suggest you make sure your 3 battery springs are tight (bend them ruthlessly with a pin or sth, until 2 arms almost touch)
May 04 20:53:30 <DocScrutinizer> make sure for all 3 slots in battery. Then also check the device's contact blades
May 04 20:53:34 <DocScrutinizer> clean them
May 04 20:54:44 <f3bruary> isnt it dangerous to poke there ?
May 04 20:54:45 <DocScrutinizer> then maybe reflash once again, and let system finish optification process (I.E. don't shut during/down after wizard, until maybe 10 min passed by)
May 04 20:55:01 <f3bruary> if I get shocked I'll blame it on Sicelo 
May 04 20:55:03 <f3bruary> ;)
May 04 20:55:19 <DocScrutinizer> (dangerous) not that much if you don't insert the pin tip more than ~2mm
May 04 20:55:41 <f3bruary> thats comforting
May 04 20:56:59 <f3bruary> should I blow on my SIM for good luck ?
May 04 20:57:30 <f3bruary> ok, booting
May 04 20:57:41 <f3bruary> 5 sec, nokia screen...
May 04 20:57:52 <f3bruary> dots, then black, then dots again
May 04 20:59:13 <DocScrutinizer> normal
May 04 20:59:50 <f3bruary> wizard...
May 04 21:00:09 <f3bruary> damn
May 04 21:00:14 <f3bruary> still no detection
May 04 21:00:58 <f3bruary> I'm gonna continue configuring my device, add apps, remove junk etc. setting everyting
May 04 21:01:14 <f3bruary> maybe after a few reboots it will be fine
May 04 21:01:26 <DocScrutinizer> f3bruary: http://maemo.cloud-7.de/share-service/20120504_002.jpg is what the springs should look like (sorry for the blurry pic)
May 04 21:02:09 <f3bruary> looks the same
May 04 21:02:15 <f3bruary> I dont have tiny tweezers
May 04 21:02:25 <f3bruary> so can't do much about it
May 04 21:02:37 <f3bruary> But I think they're fine
May 04 21:02:45 <f3bruary> they were fine 5hrs ago
May 04 21:03:49 <DocScrutinizer> then your problem is either (still/again) rootfs - naybe otification got messed up on first boot after flashing - or some lockup in RTC config possibly done by pwnphone
May 04 21:05:31 <DocScrutinizer> I suggest removing battery for 2h (hoping any lockup in cmos config will get reset by that), plus a reflash again, then quietly waiting for first boot to finish its job before rebooting again
May 04 21:05:44 <DocScrutinizer> do all this without SIM inserted
May 04 21:05:51 <f3bruary> hmm
May 04 21:05:52 <f3bruary> ok
May 04 21:06:19 <DocScrutinizer> then REboot first time again without SIM, and see if wizard still shows up
May 04 21:07:52 <DocScrutinizer> after that try a known good SIM. If all this fails at any stage, get a battery replacement
May 04 21:08:01 <DocScrutinizer> at least for testing
May 04 21:09:40 <DocScrutinizer> (rationale: modem, on detecting SIM, will start to transmit to book in, which can cause a defect worn out battery to drop voltage temporarily to a point that may cause all the problems seen)
May 04 21:10:37 * DocScrutinizer waves and wishes good luck to f3bruary
May 04 21:11:49 * f3bruary waves back and thanks DocScrutinizer 
May 04 21:53:28 <f3bruary> cool, after updates SIM is detected
May 04 21:53:43 <f3bruary> I had a feeling it would
May 04 21:54:08 <beford> weird
May 04 21:54:14 <beford> but at least worked
May 04 21:54:20 <beford> no more startup wizard at boot?
May 04 22:00:03 <f3bruary> no
May 04 22:37:23 <DocScrutinizer> dang, he's gone
May 04 22:37:33 <DocScrutinizer> anyway, another saved soul :-)
May 04 22:38:31 <Kilroo> Well, that's two places I've ordered a replacement BT8010 only to have them cancel my order because they're out of stock
May 04 22:38:44 <DocScrutinizer> :-/
May 04 22:38:47 <Kilroo> The first one, at least, still didn't list them as out of stock when I checked afterward.
May 04 22:39:05 <DocScrutinizer> suckers
May 04 22:39:14 <DocScrutinizer> shopping is a PITA nowadays
May 04 22:39:37 <Kilroo> I'd be willing to give up the LCD display, considering it doesn't entirely work anyhow, if I could find another model of over-the-ear headset that converts to stereo by plugging the other earpiece into it.
May 04 22:40:03 <DocScrutinizer> Kilroo: I found their new headphones on their website. Says "bt *and* wired"
May 04 22:40:30 <Kilroo> But so far the closest I can find is one where you plug an entire pair of earbuds into the earpiece and clip what was previously the earpiece to your shirt...
May 04 22:40:32 <DocScrutinizer> definitely not same formfactor
May 04 22:41:03 <DocScrutinizer> bah, a weak idea for a design
May 04 22:42:00 <DocScrutinizer> I might like the fold-able headphone though
May 04 22:42:21 <DocScrutinizer> it still offers dual-concurrent-connection, a killer feature
May 04 22:42:53 <Kilroo> On the bright side, at least I still get some use from my old bluetooth headset I used to use with my n82
May 04 22:43:01 <DocScrutinizer> plus it has wired audio, which I like a lot as BT A2DP usually is of inferior quality to direct wired audio
May 04 22:43:17 <Kilroo> It fits the n900 external battery charger that I got without realizing it didn't come with a power cord...
May 04 22:43:26 <Kilroo> Or rather its charger does.
May 04 22:51:29 <Kilroo> Hm. Ok, apparently I just had horrible search terms before. Now I'm finding several similar-ish models...although so far none with an earhook for the auxiliary earpiece, it doesn't look like. And I'm not really fond of stick-in-your-ear earbuds.
May 05 02:58:12 <DavidTalmage_> I need a little help with Madde and linking.
May 05 02:59:06 <DavidTalmage_> I've searched the QtCreator docs and I've searched with Google.  No joy.
May 05 02:59:16 <DavidTalmage_> Anybody here know about these things?
**** ENDING LOGGING AT Sat May 05 03:00:01 2012