**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Fri Jul 27 02:59:59 2012 Jul 27 04:35:49 japh, I understand him - while I know why bash > ash for msot people, for n900, ash suits my needs. everything, that can be done in bash, can be done in ash too, although using different methods, sometimes Jul 27 04:36:14 it's conveinent to have same, enchanced (as in busybox-power) shell both in normal; usage, and in, lets say, recovery console, though Jul 27 04:36:30 consistency between scripts, languages, etc Jul 27 04:36:57 IMO, bash on n900 is rather about conveinence for not changing habits, than requiment to achieve something Jul 27 06:03:17 busybox and simple??? :-O Jul 27 06:03:27 retarded is the term Jul 27 06:03:38 ~messybox Jul 27 06:03:38 messy... err busybox is meant for lean scripting. Regarding all the missing options and immanent limitations (see su) it's not really the interactive shell of choice. A lot of people hate busybox because a lot of system integrators don't understand the difference between busybox and a decent user interactive shell plus unix utils Jul 27 06:05:00 Estel_: please do `ps aux` in messybox! then come back here again and tell me messybox is simple and sufficient and can do everything Jul 27 06:05:59 well Jul 27 06:06:01 imessage is lame Jul 27 06:06:05 end of sms my ass Jul 27 06:06:11 ok ok, it's not exactly about messybox but about the missing unix tools, but that's what messybox is all about Jul 27 06:06:47 sudo ping Jul 27 06:06:54 just... fucking sudo ping Jul 27 06:07:17 IT'S SUPPOSED TO BE SUID ROOT GODDAMMIT Jul 27 06:07:17 or tar Jul 27 06:07:44 you gonna "WTF?!? tar doesn't know gz???" Jul 27 06:07:49 haha Jul 27 06:08:06 my tar is gnu tar Jul 27 06:08:26 or a simple ls -l with sane format Jul 27 06:09:28 or basically anything * --help ; many thanks messybox! Jul 27 06:12:03 can't we just put the proper ash there? Jul 27 06:12:06 IroN900:~# busybox ls --help 2>&1|wc -l Jul 27 06:12:07 4 Jul 27 06:12:08 and real tools? Jul 27 06:12:09 IroN900:~# ls --help 2>&1|wc -l Jul 27 06:12:10 121 Jul 27 06:12:24 or does stuff rely on busyboxisms? Jul 27 06:12:58 some stuff in user init (xinitrc or whatever) actually is said to rely on messyboxisms Jul 27 06:13:31 messyboxisms or ashisms? Jul 27 06:13:31 so it's been a fatal idea to set *user's* default shell to bash+unix-utils Jul 27 06:13:42 messyboxisms Jul 27 06:13:42 huh Jul 27 06:13:49 i guess i'm just lucky then Jul 27 06:13:58 my default shell is bash + unix-utils Jul 27 06:14:07 this is info from PR1.0.1 Jul 27 06:14:11 oic Jul 27 06:14:31 nfc if it still applies nowadays, Nokia might have fixed the scripts Jul 27 06:14:34 ...wait, nokia actually fixed a bug regarding the unix side? :o Jul 27 06:15:07 the initscripts been constantly augmented for every PR Jul 27 06:15:33 with very first PR versions we had no hook for bootmenu Jul 27 06:15:47 for example Jul 27 06:17:40 and for the life of mine I couldn't recall what exactly been the problem with busyboxisms in initscripts. Sth like the script relying on a particular very unusual output of some messybox builtin cmd like ls or mount or dunno what Jul 27 06:21:17 so kerio you could do mankind a favour and test if your device will actually come up with mesybox removed Jul 27 06:22:41 hah, i'll pass Jul 27 06:23:32 i like my n900 best when it actually boots Jul 27 06:24:10 resp check how many of the symlinks like "/bin/mount -> busybox" are still in place and needed to boot your device Jul 27 06:24:25 hehe Jul 27 06:24:40 well at best i would've tried just putting bash in /bin/sh Jul 27 06:25:01 that's no problem at all Jul 27 06:25:11 see my above pasts Jul 27 06:25:35 IroN900:~# version Jul 27 06:25:37 bash: version: command not found Jul 27 06:26:14 IroN900:~# which bash Jul 27 06:26:16 /bin/bash Jul 27 06:30:30 kerio: ls -l $(echo $PATH|sed "s/:/ /g")|grep busybox Jul 27 06:31:25 yes, i am aware of how much shit busybox does Jul 27 06:31:32 (I didn't use proper `find` command on purpose) Jul 27 06:31:36 hahaha Jul 27 06:33:41 however many of those are neutered on my system, by /bin/gnu/* Jul 27 06:34:23 IroN900:~# echo $PATH Jul 27 06:34:25 /usr/local/sbin:/usr/local/bin:/usr/sbin/gnu:/usr/sbin:/usr/bin/gnu:/usr/bin:/sbin:/bin:/usr/bin/X11 Jul 27 06:35:02 IroN900:~# which ls Jul 27 06:35:03 /usr/bin/gnu/ls Jul 27 06:41:26 IroN900:~# ls -l /usr/bin/gnu/|wc -l Jul 27 06:41:27 119 Jul 27 06:42:05 ...and I just notice diff and siblings isn't optified :-S Jul 27 06:44:21 cmp diff diff3 md5sum.textutils rgrep sdiff updatedb Jul 27 06:53:25 DocScrutinizer05: do you have something in /usr/bin/X11? Jul 27 06:53:53 you bet I have Jul 27 06:54:05 i don't even have the directory :c Jul 27 06:55:11 IroN900:~# ls -la /usr/bin/X11 Jul 27 06:55:12 lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root 1 2009-10-30 12:29 /usr/bin/X11 -> . Jul 27 06:55:14 lol Jul 27 06:56:02 wtf is THAT? Jul 27 06:56:05 oh lol Jul 27 06:56:14 that's cheating! Jul 27 07:01:23 IroN900:~# /usr/bin/X11/ Jul 27 07:01:24 Display all 759 possibilities? (y or n) Jul 27 07:01:42 (the didn't print ;-D) Jul 27 07:08:19 time to start on something I should have started a week ago, my project to document as much of the N900 dbus interfaces as possible Jul 27 07:09:37 time to start my daywork Jul 27 07:10:06 ...after headdesking a little about all the non-optified stuff in /usr/bin Jul 27 07:11:23 like 31648 2010-07-01 11:35 rtcom-messaging-ui.launch 1012968 2011-08-07 14:23 osso_pdfviewer.launch... Jul 27 07:12:24 313328 2010-06-08 13:12 osso_rss_feed_reader.launch Jul 27 07:12:37 harly used in early boot, any of those Jul 27 07:20:01 time to look into maemo-optify-* and how to use it Jul 27 07:20:52 maemo-optify-auto-opt.sh maemo-optify-firstboot.sh maemo-optify-lib.sh maemo-optify-make-mountbind.sh Jul 27 07:21:58 hi,just bricked my N900-did a nandtest /dev/mtd5 in terminal - now N900 is unresponsive -doesn't start, no charging via usb,etc - anything I can do? Jul 27 07:22:19 you might need to reflash Jul 27 07:22:30 which bit depends on just what /dev/mtd5 actually ponits to Jul 27 07:23:31 device doesn't start-no led showing up, when connected to usb/power Jul 27 07:23:58 coldflash ;) Jul 27 07:24:00 wow, you fucked it good. Jul 27 07:24:09 also, coldfalsh. Jul 27 07:24:10 nothing happens,when I hit the power button Jul 27 07:24:21 how to coldflash Jul 27 07:24:24 ? Jul 27 07:24:50 with the flasher Jul 27 07:25:08 its tricky, but it works Jul 27 07:25:31 fs was corrupted-my config was gone & I was looking for a way to restore my yappari.conf Jul 27 07:26:24 flash it, use your favourite serch engine for howto coldflash n900 Jul 27 07:26:51 mtd5: 0fb40000 00020000 "rootfs" Jul 27 07:27:02 had some ext3 errors in dmesg...tripped over this command...actually I wanted to do some fsck & e2fsck,but unfortunately I did that shit:-( Jul 27 07:27:07 hmm, coldflash not needed then Jul 27 07:27:09 you should be fine with normal reflash Jul 27 07:27:14 :nod: Jul 27 07:27:30 sambo7: remove the battery Jul 27 07:27:39 start the flasher Jul 27 07:27:54 connect USB cable with keyboard open Jul 27 07:28:15 insert the battery while holding "u" on keyboard Jul 27 07:28:32 ok,will try that-was wondering if I completely f*** up my beloved device, bacause no response at all Jul 27 07:28:38 haha my /var/log/maemo-optify-boottime.log is epic Jul 27 07:28:48 ok,will follow this procedure & see what happens Jul 27 07:29:58 holy crap bluez has a lot of interesting dbus-related info Jul 27 07:30:04 sambo7: you probably missed: -k, --keep Restore existing contents after test Jul 27 07:30:13 in nandtest ;-D Jul 27 07:30:58 btw nandtest actually has potential to fry your device for good Jul 27 07:31:13 how can it do that? Jul 27 07:31:28 jonwil: you don't want me to explain that here Jul 27 07:31:38 yeah :) Jul 27 07:31:50 * jonwil makes note not to use nandtest then Jul 27 07:31:55 to be on the safe side :) Jul 27 07:32:27 somehow I dont think I need to document org.bluez.* in my N900 dbus guide :P Jul 27 07:32:40 -p, --passes Number of passes Jul 27 07:34:47 ;-) Jul 27 07:34:50 RM680-22-6_PR_RM680:~# stress --help Jul 27 07:34:52 `stress' imposes certain types of compute stress on your system Jul 27 07:39:49 anyway, sambo7 good luck! Jul 27 07:40:04 my internet connection was disconnected...am on vacation-will try to reflash my N900 now Jul 27 07:40:15 just hope I didn't fry it Jul 27 07:40:26 sambo7: if flashing doesn't work, it's most likely a problem of your PC Jul 27 07:40:36 sambo7: nah, your device is fine Jul 27 07:40:49 just needs new rootfs Jul 27 07:41:02 sambo7: see: Jul 27 07:41:06 ~flashing Jul 27 07:41:06 i heard maemo-flashing is http://wiki.maemo.org/Updating_the_tablet_firmware Jul 27 07:41:35 let's hope so-thank you for your help...will bive feedback as soon as it's running again-hope so Jul 27 07:41:41 use a linux PC, don't forget to blacklist cdc_phonet! Jul 27 07:42:25 have arch running parallel to win7 Jul 27 07:42:50 will have a try...thx Jul 27 07:42:51 (cdc_phonet) seems it needs blacklisting on virtually any arbitrary distro nowadays Jul 27 07:43:33 should show up when I do a lsmod,when N900 by os? Jul 27 07:43:47 n900 recognised by os Jul 27 07:43:52 yep, after first flashing failure it will show up in lsmod Jul 27 07:44:33 ok...will start reflashing now & return with feedback later Jul 27 07:44:57 fine! :-) you're welcome to also ask for guidance if anything doesn't work Jul 27 07:45:54 doublecheck you download the recent version of *COMBINED* Jul 27 07:46:07 tagged "lastest" Jul 27 07:46:14 latest even Jul 27 07:47:39 going through the Updating The Firmware thread right now... Jul 27 07:49:45 read the whole wikipage Jul 27 07:50:39 it's a mess regarding structure, so you can't start at arbitrary headline and proceed step by step from there Jul 27 07:50:54 I guess right now I have no possibility to recover my yappari.conf?didn't do a backup of that config file...ok,will read the whole wiki, before I mess up again Jul 27 07:51:27 .conf will probably live in your home, which will survive rootfs flashing Jul 27 07:51:43 yeah everything in /home/user will survive Jul 27 07:51:56 but everything else including /opt and /etc will be gone Jul 27 07:52:27 you'll need to restore all your apps from a backup Jul 27 07:52:55 before I started to mess up, my problem was that suddenly my device didn't boot correctly Jul 27 07:53:07 my car charger's cable is frayed :-( Jul 27 07:53:08 nandtest is fun Jul 27 07:53:17 i hosed my sheevaplug with that Jul 27 07:53:44 hab to after finally it booted again,all my settings were like default factory Jul 27 07:54:34 my phone book was gone,my sms/phone/yappari history was gone...so was my yappari.conf Jul 27 07:54:48 sambo7: probably something messed up some hildon-desktop config files, and finally something 'recovered' Jul 27 07:55:08 ummm Jul 27 07:55:13 well yes, you randomly overwritten stuff in your ubifs volume that holds / Jul 27 07:55:27 the problem was/is that yappari registration isn't working anymore Jul 27 07:56:21 anyway, thumbified busybox-power ftw Jul 27 07:56:35 so without conf-file I will have to re-register,which will fail Jul 27 07:56:37 I'm afraid your nandtest enterprise wasn't your fist nor your worst mess-up Jul 27 07:56:56 but I can live with that as long as I can debrick my beloved N900 Jul 27 07:57:07 you can debrick it Jul 27 07:57:27 DocScrutinizer05: he nandtested his rootfs Jul 27 07:57:38 how can it not be the worst mess-up? Jul 27 07:57:39 till today my worst mess-up;-) Jul 27 07:57:44 but you *might* have to reflash *VANILLA* as well, to recover your /home fs Jul 27 07:57:54 ...well, i suppose he could've nandtested NOLO Jul 27 07:57:56 or something Jul 27 07:58:05 kerio: nope, he didn't Jul 27 07:58:19 if it's true that he did only test mtd5 Jul 27 07:58:42 and aiui he's describing problems he had *before* he did that Jul 27 07:58:44 no, i mean Jul 27 07:58:52 to make an even worse fuck up Jul 27 07:58:58 I nandtested mtd1-4...everything was fine, then started nandtest mtd5 and you know the result...mea culpa Jul 27 07:59:03 hahahaha Jul 27 07:59:06 he totally did Jul 27 07:59:11 OUCH!!!!!!!! Jul 27 07:59:15 hahaahhahahahaha Jul 27 07:59:18 awesome Jul 27 07:59:23 ~coldflash Jul 27 07:59:24 from memory, coldflash is http://mg.pov.lt/maemo-irclog/%23maemo.2010-10-31.log.html#t2010-10-31T23:09:54 and next ~200 posts, or http://wiki.maemo.org/Updating_the_firmware/Cold_Flashing Jul 27 07:59:30 now you're thoroughly fsckd Jul 27 07:59:42 nah, he just needs to coldflash Jul 27 07:59:54 he hosed CAL Jul 27 08:00:01 ...oh Jul 27 08:00:04 worst thing you can do Jul 27 08:00:16 why is it even writable? Jul 27 08:00:25 its writable because BME writes to it Jul 27 08:00:32 fukken BME Jul 27 08:00:33 now THAT will be interesting to watch if that device comes back before holiday ends Jul 27 08:00:38 >:( Jul 27 08:01:03 sambo7: you're screwed Jul 27 08:01:08 I'm also curious Jul 27 08:01:14 sorry,what is CAL? Jul 27 08:01:25 CAL contains special per-device configurations Jul 27 08:01:32 including WiFi and Bluetooth MAC addresses Jul 27 08:01:37 mtd1, the partition where all your basic hw config lives Jul 27 08:01:42 and gsm imei? Jul 27 08:02:17 ~cal Jul 27 08:02:18 well, cal is a calendar. try $(cal 1752) Jul 27 08:02:26 ...no, it's not Jul 27 08:02:30 bad infobot Jul 27 08:02:58 sambo7: you definitely need to coldflash Jul 27 08:03:12 and with a lot of luck this will revive your device Jul 27 08:03:32 erasing CAL seems like one of the only pure-software ways to actually brick a N900 Jul 27 08:03:36 DocScrutinizer05: isn't CAL like... needed? Jul 27 08:03:46 unclear Jul 27 08:03:47 for stuff? and stuff? Jul 27 08:03:52 i seed Jul 27 08:03:54 *see Jul 27 08:03:58 for obvious reasons nobody wanted to check it so far Jul 27 08:04:00 ;-P Jul 27 08:04:08 sambo7: looks like you're going to be our lab rat! be proud! Jul 27 08:04:47 actually unless you also nandtested mtd0, you might still be fine with normal flashing, sambo7 Jul 27 08:04:47 first N900 owner to hose the CAL and find out if doing it bricks the device or not :) Jul 27 08:05:28 Has somone finally found a way to brick an n900? Jul 27 08:06:00 hmm, what's "log" (mtd2)? Jul 27 08:06:04 nuking CAL always been known for a candidate Jul 27 08:06:13 kerio: kernel OOPS Jul 27 08:06:14 Also, what posessed you to do this? Jul 27 08:06:45 why do we need 40000 of... something for those? Jul 27 08:06:58 vi__: he wanted to test his nand! :D Jul 27 08:07:03 WTF for? Jul 27 08:07:07 kerio: because we love proper kernel dumps Jul 27 08:07:23 hrmpf :c Jul 27 08:07:26 k Jul 27 08:07:34 vi__: and he forgot to give -k, --keep Restore existing contents after test Jul 27 08:07:43 vi__: nandtest makes a destructive test by default Jul 27 08:07:49 But where did he even find instructions on how to do this? Jul 27 08:08:00 :shrug: Jul 27 08:08:08 i did that on my sheevaplug at some point Jul 27 08:08:23 Surely alarm bells must have been ringing in his head... Jul 27 08:08:24 it was fun, ubifs kept trucking along for a bit Jul 27 08:08:32 'danger, sambo7 . DANGER'! Jul 27 08:08:46 luckily the sheevaplug is Unbrickable© Jul 27 08:09:06 allegedly N900 too Jul 27 08:09:18 I was a little overhasty...and didn't read the complete info on that command...since it's called nand"test"...I gave it a try without using my brain Jul 27 08:09:18 the other *plugs are too, but they require a jtag board, the sheeva only needs a miniusb cable Jul 27 08:09:21 so we'll see if that's actually true or not ;-) Jul 27 08:09:55 ok, lets see who writes to the CAL via libcal Jul 27 08:10:05 coldflash potentially *could* restore a default CAL Jul 27 08:10:30 hell, even a standard flash could, as long as NOLO in mtd0 is still alive Jul 27 08:10:52 does the N900 have some pins/etc. for serial connection on the inside? Jul 27 08:10:59 yes Jul 27 08:11:05 under battery Jul 27 08:11:15 DocScrutinizer05: is the irreplaceable data in CAL actually replaceable then? Jul 27 08:11:21 sambo7: you don't need it Jul 27 08:11:22 but you usually don't need them even for hardcore recovery Jul 27 08:11:45 when coldflashing, you load a partial NOLO in ram and you flash the actual NOLO Jul 27 08:11:50 and then you flash the rest Jul 27 08:12:29 will start with cold flash soon Jul 27 08:13:03 kerio: ram NOLO might not only flash nand NOLO but also restore CAL, if nand NOLO needs that for coming up Jul 27 08:13:21 or it doesn't and sambo7is screwed Jul 27 08:13:36 or NOLO doesn't need CAL at all, just friendly suggestions in there Jul 27 08:13:46 nobody but some Nokians knows Jul 27 08:14:22 but since sambo7says his device is a complete brick, I assume NOLO needs a proper CAL to come up Jul 27 08:14:57 sambo7: check your PC syslog after plugging in N900 Jul 27 08:15:16 might have some warning/fatal msgs from NOLO Jul 27 08:15:31 sambo7: you also need to recall your HW revision Jul 27 08:15:35 or even no NOLO hello-world at all Jul 27 08:15:44 coldflashing needs it Jul 27 08:15:57 oh yes, that too, freemangordon Jul 27 08:16:02 good point Jul 27 08:16:23 one of the things stored in CAL Jul 27 08:16:53 which makes me think coldflashing actually doesn't need CAL and probably restores it Jul 27 08:18:40 my god this grep of the N900 QT source code is gonna take forever :P Jul 27 08:21:13 hm, how do i see my hw revision? Jul 27 08:27:50 kerio: cat /proc/cpuinfo shows a Revision number Jul 27 08:28:35 rev 3? Jul 27 08:28:43 is that the hw revision? Jul 27 08:32:25 cat /proc/component_version Jul 27 08:32:32 here is HW rev Jul 27 08:33:16 Pali, get any further with the prolog stuff yet? Jul 27 08:33:34 I did not played with it Jul 27 08:33:38 ok Jul 27 08:33:58 I take it nothing more from any of the various Nokia things you emailed about (e.g. BME temprature calculation) Jul 27 08:34:05 jonwil, I wrote steps which maybe working for replacing jack bias predicate in that binary plc file Jul 27 08:34:11 ok Jul 27 08:34:39 jonwil, n9 bme dev wrote me that he try to look/ask for n900 bme code Jul 27 08:34:49 also he forwared my email to other nokia dev Jul 27 08:35:02 ok Jul 27 08:35:32 Hopefully someone can find (and get permission to share) the math formula(s) for reading data from those ADCs and converting it into whatever libbmeipc and hald-addon-bme want Jul 27 08:36:06 we dont need (or want) all of BME, just the math formulas (and maybe the stuff for reading BME CAL area if its needed) Jul 27 08:36:25 Pali: what? bme source code? I won't believe it even if i see it :P Jul 27 08:36:48 I asked for battery temp formula Jul 27 08:36:57 aah, ok Jul 27 08:36:58 btw pali, will the BME replacement thats being worked on be usable to replace BME in MeeGo/Mer/Nemo/etc? Jul 27 08:37:06 and dev wrote that he tried to look into bme source code for that Jul 27 08:37:16 jonwil: should be Jul 27 08:37:22 jonwil, it will be in kernel, so yes Jul 27 08:37:42 it is partially based on mer's libbmeipc Jul 27 08:37:44 if nokia did not created more stupid apps which depends on bme, then there will be no problem Jul 27 08:38:02 ok, thats good, that means one less binary blob needed for open-os-on-n900 Jul 27 08:38:07 Pali: they depend on libbmeipc Jul 27 08:38:16 not BME itself Jul 27 08:38:30 jonwil, charging battery is in kernel, so userspace do not need to know anything about charging... Jul 27 08:38:44 well... Jul 27 08:38:45 only things on meego that depend on bme would be the pulseaudio bits Jul 27 08:38:52 and someone said they are going to replace those :) Jul 27 08:39:08 freemangordon, that bme stuff can be develed from meego/mer/... when kernel driver will be loaded Jul 27 08:39:27 jonwil, pulseaudio bits are open in meego Jul 27 08:39:32 not all of em Jul 27 08:39:41 and now it does not depends on bme Jul 27 08:39:56 https://build.pub.meego.com/package/files?package=pulseaudio-modules-nokia&project=CE%3AAdaptation%3AN9xx-common Jul 27 08:40:02 Thats definatly NOT open source Jul 27 08:40:05 because it depends on libbmeipc, which is a different beast Jul 27 08:40:08 and definatly for N900 MeeGo Jul 27 08:40:14 uff Jul 27 08:40:26 Those modules contan all the secret stuff Jul 27 08:40:36 wtf?? this is not in maemo... Jul 27 08:41:01 Nokia rewrote Pulseaudio for MeeGo Jul 27 08:41:12 to put all the secret bits into much smaller modules Jul 27 08:41:19 so they could open a lot more of the PulseAudio stuff Jul 27 08:41:26 hence the creation of pulseaudio-modules-nokia Jul 27 08:41:44 pulseaudio-modules-meego contains the rest of what was in the Fremantle PA closed bits Jul 27 08:41:44 other question, is that modules needed? Jul 27 08:41:50 and what are doing? Jul 27 08:42:07 someone said they were working on bringing the latest pulseaudio to MeeGo/Mer/Nemo/etc Jul 27 08:42:22 and had knowledge of what to do about those modules Jul 27 08:42:39 XPROT Jul 27 08:42:48 jonwil, ok Jul 27 08:42:58 try to remeber that person Jul 27 08:43:06 jonwil, for prolog stuff, see: http://mg.pov.lt/maemo-irclog/%23maemo.2012-07-25.log.html#t2012-07-25T12:37:35 Jul 27 08:43:14 sorry for interrupting...was offline for a while...if I need hw rev. for coldflash,how do I find out when device is inaccessible?underneath the battery? Jul 27 08:43:15 it was in #mer or #nemomobile IIRC Jul 27 08:43:28 if you still have swi prolog working, you can try to edit that binary plc file Jul 27 08:43:54 so you could scan the chanlogs for those 2 channels for the pulseaudio discussion Jul 27 08:44:08 and yes pulseaudio-modules-nokia does depend on libbmeipc Jul 27 08:44:32 for the bme battery temp reading (I think xprot needs it) Jul 27 08:44:41 jonwil, that link is for N9/N950 Jul 27 08:44:43 not for N900 Jul 27 08:44:44 maybe we can RE the secret bits? Jul 27 08:44:51 sambo7: alas afaik hw-version is nowhere printed Jul 27 08:44:52 no, thats for N9xx Jul 27 08:44:57 which is for all 3 devices Jul 27 08:45:02 there is a section for N900 Jul 27 08:45:05 one for N9/N950 Jul 27 08:45:08 and one for all 3 Jul 27 08:45:10 which has that in it Jul 27 08:45:16 and the PowerVR bits Jul 27 08:45:22 and some other stuff thats the same between both Jul 27 08:45:50 ok Jul 27 08:46:49 Pali: jonwil: freemangordon: could you help out sambo7 a bit? I'm afk now Jul 27 08:46:55 if the pulseaudio modules are smaller on MeeGo it's more viable to work out what they do through disassembly, although I'm sure they have been stripped of symbols. Jul 27 08:46:58 yeah I will help where I can Jul 27 08:47:12 they are smaller but its still complex to reverse engineer Jul 27 08:47:22 audio algorithms are not exactly easy to follow :) Jul 27 08:47:29 sambo7, I do not know how to get hw revision Jul 27 08:47:38 when device is off Jul 27 08:47:42 nor do I Jul 27 08:47:42 try 2101 Jul 27 08:48:00 how many hw rev are there? Jul 27 08:48:01 but nolo/xloader is same for all 21xx 22xx 23xx and 24xx Jul 27 08:48:09 could try one after another Jul 27 08:48:16 right now though I am going to finish my work on documenting all this dbus stuff, then later I might work on my replacements for libcal, sysinfo, bluetooth-cal script and wl1251-cal that could be used (once BME is gone) to replace all those binary blobs for MeeGo/Mer/Nemo Jul 27 08:48:19 and other 2yxx have other xloader/nolo code Jul 27 08:48:36 well not replacing sysinfo, eliminating the need for it Jul 27 08:48:37 sambo7, try 2101 Jul 27 08:48:53 can screw up my N900 that it already is,I guess Jul 27 08:48:59 cannot I mean Jul 27 08:49:10 there aren't many hw diffs afaik Jul 27 08:49:12 specifing HW revision for coldflashing is needed only for flasher-3.5 to know which NOLO version will be sent from FIASCO image Jul 27 08:49:24 and coldflashing does not erase CAL Jul 27 08:49:38 then that work could be changed by someone with kernel know-how to make the bluetooth and wlan bits work over standard interfaces Jul 27 08:49:38 so after NOLO will start it send correct HW rev Jul 27 08:49:55 unless CAL is nuked ;-D Jul 27 08:50:04 and also used to replace those same bits in CSSU Jul 27 08:50:14 but dbus first Jul 27 08:50:19 jonwil, nice :-) Jul 27 08:50:44 The plan basically is to take the open cal read code and turn it into a clone of all the read functions of libcal Jul 27 08:51:02 i.e. libcal without the write bits Jul 27 08:51:22 and to write something to do bluetooth CAL Jul 27 08:51:33 do it without using sysinfo Jul 27 08:51:37 read only cal parser already exists Jul 27 08:51:37 and to clone wl1251-cal Jul 27 08:51:42 see calvaria project Jul 27 08:51:43 yes I know Jul 27 08:51:58 haven't used irc before...can I see a history of that chat later?or do I have to copy & paste?sorry for asking:-( Jul 27 08:51:59 that's what I mean, take it and rewrite it so its identical API to nokia libcal Jul 27 08:52:12 you can see the history later by reading the chanlog Jul 27 08:52:15 which is linked in the top Jul 27 08:52:17 topifd Jul 27 08:52:19 topic Jul 27 08:53:33 ok,thank you...will have to continue debricking in the evening-don't have a data-flat here...will continue later with a flat Jul 27 08:53:35 Chanlog: http://mg.pov.lt/maemo-irclog | Jul 27 08:54:15 Pali: sambo7 nandtested everything :D Jul 27 08:54:34 making calvaria identical to nokia libcal will help when writing things that will run on Fremantle with Nokia libcal and also on MeeGo/Mer/Nemo with this new open libcal Jul 27 08:56:26 great,will answer back in the evening...will have to detract myself now from messing up...hope a leap intio the lake will help Jul 27 08:56:31 jonwil, also look at project libopencal Jul 27 08:56:51 sambo7, ok Jul 27 08:56:54 little irritating that nandtest is not only testing... Jul 27 08:57:12 hehehe Jul 27 08:57:24 if that friggin nandtest doesn't spit out BIG FAT WARNING, it's a PoS Jul 27 08:57:32 it doesn't, no Jul 27 08:57:44 got a link to libopencal? Jul 27 08:57:50 I guess I will remember that mess for a centuries Jul 27 08:57:50 the whole of mtdtools is really not user friendly Jul 27 08:58:13 n900 is dead Jul 27 08:58:34 jacekowski: don't be like that :( Jul 27 08:58:38 be optimistic! Jul 27 08:58:39 @Doc...I agree Jul 27 08:58:39 DocScrutinizer05: does dd spit out a big fat warning? Jul 27 08:59:00 vi__: badblocks does, i think Jul 27 08:59:12 at least there's one in the man page Jul 27 08:59:19 dd==gnu disk destroyer. Jul 27 08:59:20 jonwil, https://github.com/slonopotamus/opendsme/blob/master/src/libopencal.c Jul 27 08:59:35 vi__: on dd thew name is the warning ;-) Jul 27 09:00:21 jonwil, but this is for diablo Jul 27 09:00:30 still a nice start Jul 27 09:00:33 oooh https://github.com/slonopotamus/opendsme/blob/master/src/open-wlan-cal.c Jul 27 09:00:45 That might also be a good starting point Jul 27 09:00:58 actually no Jul 27 09:01:04 slono long time no see Jul 27 09:01:20 Diablo device has totally different wlan chip IIRC Jul 27 09:01:25 ~seen slonopotamus Jul 27 09:01:29 slonopotamus <~slonopota@176.57.72.72> was last seen on IRC in channel #maemo, 59d 14h 17s ago, saying: 'DocScrutinizer51: you're killing all fun'. Jul 27 09:01:43 that's true, yeah Jul 27 09:01:56 what did you killed?? Jul 27 09:02:03 all fun!!! Jul 27 09:02:05 ALL THE FUN. Jul 27 09:02:21 Chanlog: http://mg.pov.lt/maemo-irclog | Jul 27 09:02:38 o/ Jul 27 09:02:38 ~DocScrutinizer05 Jul 27 09:02:43 ~DocScrutinizer05 Jul 27 09:02:56 ~DocScrutinizer05 is killing all fun Jul 27 09:02:56 vi__: okay Jul 27 09:03:02 If I'm not able to recover, my N900 will end up as a souvenir on my wall & a kick in my a.. Jul 27 09:03:07 dafaq Jul 27 09:03:15 not as bad a killing your N900 Jul 27 09:03:15 ok, I will use libopencal and calvaria and produce something that is (for reading at least) 100% identical to N900 libcal Jul 27 09:03:31 ~seen slonopotamus Jul 27 09:03:32 slonopotamus <~slonopota@176.57.72.72> was last seen on IRC in channel #maemo, 59d 14h 2m 20s ago, saying: 'DocScrutinizer51: you're killing all fun'. Jul 27 09:03:33 ~ DocScrutinizer05 is see DocScrutinizer Jul 27 09:03:33 ...but docscrutinizer05 is already something else... Jul 27 09:03:35 jonwil, ok Jul 27 09:03:44 ~ no, DocScrutinizer05 is see DocScrutinizer Jul 27 09:03:44 I think you lost me on that one, DocScrutinizer05 Jul 27 09:03:47 Wont try to get writing working as I dont want to be the one testing it Jul 27 09:03:55 infobot: no, DocScrutinizer05 is see DocScrutinizer Jul 27 09:03:55 okay, DocScrutinizer05 Jul 27 09:04:03 ~lock DocScrutinizer05 Jul 27 09:04:03 locking factoid docscrutinizer05, DocScrutinizer05 Jul 27 09:04:05 i.e. getting writing code wrong and hosing my N900 :P Jul 27 09:04:14 DocScrutinizer05: lame, you are killing fun Jul 27 09:04:22 jonwil, writing can be tested in qemu Jul 27 09:04:41 ~ DocScrutinizer06 is see DocScrutinizer Jul 27 09:04:41 DocScrutinizer05: okay Jul 27 09:04:47 ~lock DocScrutinizer06 Jul 27 09:04:47 locking factoid docscrutinizer06, DocScrutinizer05 Jul 27 09:04:49 I dont have qemu going on my SB dev setup Jul 27 09:05:00 plus we dont need writing Jul 27 09:05:00 jonwil, qemu from madde Jul 27 09:05:11 I dont have qemu going at all Jul 27 09:05:13 sambo7: If you have totally hosed your n900 you can still sell it. The N900 is so badass even broken ones will fetch at least $50. Jul 27 09:05:14 yes, why is writing support needed? Jul 27 09:05:16 and dont want to mess around getting it going Jul 27 09:05:21 ~ DocScrutinizer05 Jul 27 09:05:22 [docscrutinizer] jOERG, a HW-developer and engineer of Openmoko Jul 27 09:05:23 ~docscrutinizer05 Jul 27 09:05:24 from memory, docscrutinizer is jOERG, a HW-developer and engineer of Openmoko Jul 27 09:05:54 but if he's joerg, why is he docscrutinizer? Jul 27 09:06:13 kerio: That is like his IRL name. Jul 27 09:06:43 On Fremantle (where things do need writing), we keep using Nokia libcal as-is (and nokia libcal-dev) and on Meego/Mer/Nemo, we can ship the open libcal so we dont have to ship as many binary blobs Jul 27 09:06:44 so? not l33t enough? Jul 27 09:06:48 ~joerg Jul 27 09:06:49 it's a cool acronym Jul 27 09:06:51 i guess joerg is a HW-developer and engineer of Openmoko, usually known as DocScrutinizer Jul 27 09:07:19 ~seen joerg Jul 27 09:07:22 DocScrutinizer05: i haven't seen 'joerg' Jul 27 09:07:34 @vi_...wouldn't sell it...will keep-wiil serve me as a warning Jul 27 09:07:35 /ns info joerg Jul 27 09:07:35 ~seen assface lake Jul 27 09:07:40 vi__: i haven't seen 'assface lake' Jul 27 09:07:50 ~seen a woman naked Jul 27 09:07:52 i haven't seen 'a woman naked', vi__ Jul 27 09:08:01 oh you Jul 27 09:08:32 my god qtmobility has some usefull info on some otherwise undocumented dbus things :) Jul 27 09:12:56 is there a device running linux with better hw than the N900/N950? Jul 27 09:12:58 with a keyboard? Jul 27 09:14:53 sambo7: besides the few android phones with keybs (technically, android is linux, and wiyh a lot of effort you can port anything), I don't think so Jul 27 09:16:16 was thinking about all devices but android ones;-) Jul 27 09:16:44 hopefully they complete the Jolla , but given the state of patent wars, I wonder .... Jul 27 09:17:21 freemangordon: As I mentioned yesterday, the reason Nokia used 2.6.0 as the minimum kernel version for glibc was because the old qemu versions available for SB do not support the syscalls available in 2.6.28. Therefore I'm porting the SB QEMU patches to the current Debian QEMU 1.0 and 1.1.x releases, and creating an updated cputransp devkit. Jul 27 09:21:34 zeq1: You are a mcahine, Jul 27 09:21:49 s/mcahine/machine/ Jul 27 09:21:50 vi__ meant: zeq1: You are a machine, Jul 27 09:22:34 sambo7, did you alredy try to coldflash? Jul 27 09:23:30 zeq1: ok Jul 27 09:25:10 zeq1: will your work mean that we can bump up the kernel version in libc to 2.6.28 or whatever? Jul 27 09:25:18 i.e. libc for CSSU Jul 27 09:25:24 that's the idea, yes Jul 27 09:25:45 right now the SDK is holding it back Jul 27 09:26:06 the kernel is actually more capable than the qemu in sb Jul 27 09:26:53 I'm having to effectively re-write the patches since the code has changed quite a lot, but I should have it working later today. Jul 27 09:28:45 ok Jul 27 09:31:16 @PALI...no,not yet coldflashed...will have to wait until evening-don't have a flat here...am on vacation Jul 27 09:31:30 ok Jul 27 09:31:46 ... Jul 27 09:31:55 You ran a nandtest while on vacation? Jul 27 09:33:08 vi__: now, that's an obbsession :D Jul 27 09:33:14 @jecokowski...where do you reside?I'm on vacation in Poland...maybe you could come around & help me out:-) Jul 27 09:33:24 hehe Jul 27 09:35:11 zeq1: if you fix "$package/DEBIAN exists but is not a directory" I will owe you a beer Jul 27 09:36:20 FUUUK Jul 27 09:36:30 install: `debian/libnspr4/DEBIAN' exists but is not a directory Jul 27 09:36:31 dh_makeshlibs: command returned error code 256 Jul 27 09:36:34 make: *** [binary-arch] Error 1 Jul 27 09:36:44 anyone? ^^^ Jul 27 09:37:27 freemangordon: what's that from? Jul 27 09:37:38 different packages Jul 27 09:37:47 this one is from microb-engine Jul 27 09:38:22 happens from time to time, packaging with "exists but..." error Jul 27 09:38:36 s/packaging/packaging fails/ Jul 27 09:38:37 freemangordon meant: happens from time to time, packaging fails with "exists but..." error Jul 27 09:38:56 something with debhelper, qemu, NFC Jul 27 09:39:04 BUT IT DRIVES ME MAAAAD Jul 27 09:39:39 maybe new qemu will help, although it doesn't sound like it's the problem here to me Jul 27 09:39:49 debhelper could be Jul 27 09:40:17 zeq1: i think it is qemu Jul 27 09:40:30 we'll see if the new version fixes it Jul 27 09:40:50 you could meanwhile try upgrading your debian-etch devkit? Jul 27 09:41:10 how? Jul 27 09:41:26 the devkits are all distributed as x86 binaries Jul 27 09:41:48 from scratchbox.org Jul 27 09:42:28 just download the latest version and unpack it into your /opt/scratchbox/devkits Jul 27 09:42:46 after moving the old version out of the way Jul 27 09:42:55 i think i have the latest Jul 27 09:43:03 some time ago i checked that Jul 27 09:43:30 I remember when we looked the other day you had 1 version older than the version I have Jul 27 09:43:40 hmm Jul 27 09:44:10 I'd better get back to hacking ;) Jul 27 09:52:11 zeq1: upgraded to scratchbox-devkit-debian (1.0.12), lets see Jul 27 10:55:14 freemangordon: absolute crazyness. I was attempting to use the documented process for developing scratchbox devkits using the etch build environemnt, but I needed libglib-2.0-dev, so I run apt-get update; apt-get install libglib-2.0-dev, and proceded to break the enviroment when the updated libc6 from etch decided it couldn't complete installation as I am running on a *REAL* i386 CPU! Using FREMANTLE_X86 instead is going bet Jul 27 10:58:50 so close... I can't make my final link because the cs2007 i486 toolchain isn't wanting to link the libc.a from fremantle-x86 into the final executable :( Jul 27 10:59:22 looks like I'm going to have to build that x86 scratchbox toolchain Jul 27 11:01:07 a question for all: do I make a i686 -> i486 cross-compiler as is currently supplied with scratchbox, or do i just build a i686 host compiler? Jul 27 11:01:48 what is the target arch of FREMANTLE_X86? Jul 27 11:05:16 zeq1, if the target in the env is really i486, stick to making a cross compiler unless you want gcc to wrap as "gcc-4.x --march=i486" Jul 27 11:05:31 libc is quirky like that Jul 27 11:07:41 Hurrian: is there a way I can find out? Jul 27 11:07:59 readelf -A /lib/libc-2.5.so doesn't give me anything Jul 27 11:08:45 it should be in the tuple Jul 27 11:08:57 gcc doesn't store it's cross target info Jul 27 11:09:41 uname -m returns i386 Jul 27 11:10:23 tbh, I've been using AMD64 for so long I can't remember whether that would show i686 or not Jul 27 11:10:26 :S Jul 27 11:11:06 Hurrian: do you have a real x86 system? Jul 27 11:11:20 who doesn't? Jul 27 11:11:24 zeq1: i386 is 32bit Jul 27 11:11:37 isn't it? Jul 27 11:11:44 chem|st: I know, but it's also different from i686 Jul 27 11:11:59 zeq1, it's just some optimisation flags Jul 27 11:12:06 Debian still builds with i386 target Jul 27 11:12:10 instruction availablity Jul 27 11:12:13 Arch builds with i686 target Jul 27 11:12:23 if you're pulling stuff from Debian, it should work Jul 27 11:12:26 I have 64 and 32 installed on my netbook... one is i386 and the other is i686 I think Jul 27 11:12:32 root@infoTV:~# uname -m Jul 27 11:12:32 i686 Jul 27 11:12:42 if you're building on an amd64 machine on the host, you may have a problem Jul 27 11:12:43 I'm referring to fremantle/x86 Jul 27 11:12:45 64bit? Jul 27 11:13:00 32bit Jul 27 11:13:00 Hurrian: that's okay, I have a 32bit chroot Jul 27 11:13:15 chem|st: stock fremantle/x86 SDK Jul 27 11:13:24 should be 32bit iirc Jul 27 11:13:42 yes, but i386, i486, or i686 :P Jul 27 11:13:50 ah ok Jul 27 11:14:29 normally, I would just go for i686, but scratchbox comes with a i486 cross-compiler :S Jul 27 11:14:55 zeq1: harmattan and fremantle are i486 Jul 27 11:15:04 i486, ok Jul 27 11:15:22 I'll build a cross-compiler then, rather than a i686 host-compiler Jul 27 11:15:56 I wasn't sure what toolchain fremantle was built with Jul 27 11:19:47 chem|st: that's despite the pkg having i386 in the name? Jul 27 11:21:38 uname -m in scratchbox returns i486 Jul 27 11:22:00 and that is for sure not my hostsystem Jul 27 11:22:29 ok :) Jul 27 11:23:40 i386 is kinda generic Jul 27 11:23:56 SpeedEvil: it's both generic and specific :P Jul 27 11:24:02 yeah Jul 27 11:24:12 I used a 386 yesterday. Jul 27 11:24:19 Though it was a 386ex Jul 27 11:24:25 In my garmin GPS12 Jul 27 11:24:39 (I've idly wondered over the years about putting linux on it) Jul 27 11:24:41 they've stopped making them recently haven't they? Jul 27 11:24:45 But it never came to anything. Jul 27 11:24:56 I assume you mean 386exs Jul 27 11:25:03 yes Jul 27 11:25:19 I guess I do :) Jul 27 11:26:09 I am surprised anyone would be using x86 for anything other than a full desktop/laptop PC Jul 27 11:26:17 when there are so many better options Jul 27 11:26:34 There weren't. Jul 27 11:26:48 how old is this hardware? Jul 27 11:26:58 Back in 1993 (?) 386 was one of a very, very limited number of lowish power processors. Jul 27 11:27:04 high performance. Jul 27 11:27:10 yeah good point, ARM didn't exist yet Jul 27 11:27:27 and things like zilog had no power Jul 27 11:27:40 I think there may have been MIPS around, but my memory is fuzzy. Jul 27 11:27:42 68000 was another choice used by such people IIRC Jul 27 11:28:04 I think that would have been broadly comparable. Jul 27 11:28:22 IIRC it only had 2M RAM Jul 27 11:28:41 ARM have been around londer than that Jul 27 11:28:46 And digikey doesn't stock any parts with 386ex in the title Jul 27 11:28:49 s/londer/longer/ Jul 27 11:28:51 zeq1 meant: ARM have been around longer than that Jul 27 11:29:05 I was using an ARM in 1989 Jul 27 11:29:05 As parts suitable for embedded hardware though? Jul 27 11:29:25 The 386ex is a system on a chip - you need very few external components. Jul 27 11:29:47 they weren't high power compared to contemporary x86 hardware Jul 27 11:29:53 anyone know what ke-recv is? Jul 27 11:30:09 zeq1: No, but if they needed an extra dozen chips... Jul 27 11:30:26 SpeedEvil: depended what you wanted to do Jul 27 11:30:38 indeed Jul 27 11:31:24 I don't think they made out of Acorn until the Apple Newton? Jul 27 11:31:31 or am I getting my history confused? Jul 27 11:31:40 Anyway - back at that time the 386ex was a sane choice. It got 12h on 4 AA cells. Jul 27 11:32:22 these days of course you would be stupid to put x86 in anything embedded Jul 27 11:32:24 yeah, and was well proven, with the hw bugs removed Jul 27 11:33:08 even today there aren't a lot of choices for radiation/EMP hardened devices though Jul 27 11:33:22 if it wasnt for the need (and desire) to run Windows, there would be a lot less x86 powered netbooks and tablets out there Jul 27 11:33:37 jonwil: you mean DOS :P Jul 27 11:34:02 I mean Windows (or rather Windows Netbook or whatever MS is calling it these days) Jul 27 11:34:33 never heard of it :) Jul 27 11:36:22 The momementum behind the desktop ubiquity of ix86 really came from 80x86 DOS compatiblity. Jul 27 11:36:32 yes it did Jul 27 11:37:23 but the reason x86 survives outside of core desktop and laptop markets is mostly because of Windows, if it wasnt for Windows, vendors would be picking ARM instead of x86 for netbooks and tablets. Jul 27 11:37:30 if it wasn't for that Microsoft if they still exisited would have written their software to be portable Jul 27 11:39:01 zeq1: ARM was spun out of Acorn to be a JV with Apple and VLSI for the Newton, yes. Jul 27 11:39:31 I have a nexus 7. Jul 27 11:39:31 zeq1: First ARM was available in about 1985/86 as the "ARM Development Board", an ARM co-processor for the BBC's Tube interface. Jul 27 11:39:39 It's amazingly fast, in many ways. Jul 27 11:39:46 zeq1: First used in a proper machine in the Archimedes in 1987 Jul 27 11:40:17 Though - to drag it back on topic - I don't like the task switcher. Jul 27 11:40:18 Jaffa: I had a number of Acorn machines over the years Jul 27 11:40:21 SpeedEvil: I played on a colleague's - biggest problem, which'd be a showstopper for me was that fast typing in landscape mode meant I kept hitting 'Home' when I wanted 'space' Jul 27 11:40:42 Jaffa: I find getting up to speed on the vkbd is painful. Jul 27 11:40:50 zeq1: I've been playing with RISC OS 5 from http://riscosopen.org recently (since it's getting more focus with the Raspberry Pi) Jul 27 11:41:00 Jaffa: At the very least, the thing should beep differently as you hit keys off centre. Jul 27 11:41:20 Other than the lack of a hwkbd, it's very nearly my ideal casual browsing device. Jul 27 11:41:28 in the meanwile: microb-engine is successfuly built with GCC 4.7.2 Jul 27 11:41:40 'swipe' would make it wonderful. Jul 27 11:41:42 Jaffa: I always quite liked the RISC OS Desktop, but the underlying OS was always a bit of a cludge. Jul 27 11:41:53 zeq1: But yes, you're right. Late 80s/early 90s, Acorn's machines running with ARM chips were faster than equivalently clocked x86 and used less power. Jul 27 11:41:55 I'm still using my n900 a lot though. Jul 27 11:42:29 Basically as I'm not so scared of dropping it at this point :) Jul 27 11:42:40 zeq1: It's pleasantly simple for a hobbyist OS now. Even if it's still fairly easy to lockup Jul 27 11:42:44 SpeedEvil: :) Jul 27 11:43:25 I haven't used RISC OS since version 3.5+ Jul 27 11:44:03 I ended up putting Linux on my Acorn RPC :) Jul 27 11:45:21 on topic: what's the triplet for fremantle/x86? Jul 27 11:45:41 i486-none-linux-gnu? Jul 27 11:45:51 i486-pc-linux-gnu? Jul 27 11:45:53 ??? Jul 27 11:46:12 in the meanwile: microb-engine is successfuly built with GCC 4.7.2 Jul 27 11:46:20 ^this gives me a mega boner. Jul 27 11:46:26 :) Jul 27 11:46:56 SpeedEvil: Get an otterbox. Jul 27 11:47:08 Put your tank phone in a tank box. Jul 27 11:47:11 What's that? Jul 27 11:47:11 yeah, and it works (at least on my developer device), HTTPS TLS error is gone Jul 27 11:47:15 MANSIZE phone. Jul 27 11:47:15 Ah Jul 27 11:47:21 freemangordon: :D Jul 27 11:47:24 I have a silicone case. Jul 27 11:47:26 ;) Jul 27 11:47:34 freemangordon: I wonder if it's the same bug as affected fennec? Jul 27 11:47:35 It's 2mm or so on each side Jul 27 11:47:51 SpeedEvil: Are you kdding me? The otterbox is the toughest of all the n900 cases. Jul 27 11:48:01 freemangordon: do you know what the triplet is for fremantle/x86? Jul 27 11:48:11 Also, when you take the N900 out of it, the N900 looks so slim and sexy! Jul 27 11:48:25 :) Jul 27 11:48:33 zeq1: I can bet on that (the bug) Jul 27 11:49:00 People always mock my N900 in a otterbox. Jul 27 11:49:00 zeq1: why not login in FREMANTLE_X86 and check? Jul 27 11:49:14 They say, lol what is that? It is not the 80's anymore. Jul 27 11:49:21 because that's too obvious DOH Jul 27 11:49:27 hehe Jul 27 11:50:08 And I'm like 'hah, this is not a phone it is a computer. It is so good I can even you Cron to run a gsync script every hour over an encypted SSH tunnel' Jul 27 11:50:26 i486-linux-gnu Jul 27 11:50:31 And they go but it doesn't have FROOT NINJA. Jul 27 11:50:39 * vi__ forever alone. Jul 27 11:50:46 zeq1: :D Jul 27 11:51:04 freemangordon: it's not a problem building the devkit in fremantle/x86 do you think? Jul 27 11:51:26 zeq1: RPCemu is quite nice, as it works with the "shared source" version available free: https://twitter.com/jaffa2/status/222788836005130240/photo/1/large Jul 27 11:52:07 freemangordon: it's not exactly SB standard, but I can't see what else I can do being unable to update the SB etch environment. Jul 27 11:52:20 RiSC OS still exists? Jul 27 11:52:25 vi__: yes Jul 27 11:52:43 mother of god. Jul 27 11:52:47 why won't it die? Jul 27 11:53:27 as does Acorn, unbelievably, although no longer associated Jul 27 11:53:46 what the hell, otterbox.com lists "Lumia N900" as a nokia model Jul 27 11:54:24 now known as element14 Jul 27 11:54:56 kerio: ????? Jul 27 11:54:59 In secondary school, our curriculum was so outdated we used to run an econet of acorn archimedes A400(?) to emulate a serial network of BBC micros to learn programming in COBOL. Jul 27 11:55:01 exactly Jul 27 11:55:44 vi__: cool Jul 27 11:56:42 We were learning an obsolete language on networked obsolete hardware emulating a network h even more obsoleter hardware. Jul 27 11:56:47 since element14 are behind R-pi it's quite fitting to get RISC OS on it I guess :) Jul 27 11:56:55 s/h/of/ Jul 27 11:56:55 vi__ meant: We were learning an obsolete language on networked obsolete ofardware emulating a network h even more obsoleter hardware. Jul 27 11:57:02 fuckit. Jul 27 11:57:17 I don't think you did mean that ;) Jul 27 11:57:42 hm, i wonder if there's an xl version of the otterbox Jul 27 11:57:57 kerio: They are quite small. Jul 27 11:58:20 vi__: But, you were learning something. Unlike the recent ICT curriculum which taught Word, Excel & PowerPoint Jul 27 11:58:36 Jaffa: That makes me so F* mad. Jul 27 11:58:59 vi__: yeah, i meant one for a mugen battery Jul 27 11:59:03 They are teaching UK kids useless stuff on outdated proprietory software. Jul 27 11:59:06 or a double scud Jul 27 11:59:15 vi__: I did some proper RISC OS hacking a few weeks ago, and it's surprising still how *fun* it is (compared with, say, fighting Qt Creator and random deployment problems to mobile devices) Jul 27 11:59:58 What damn use is an O level in using MS Word 2002? Jul 27 12:01:18 Jaffa: Aaaah, to compute in more innocent times. Jul 27 12:01:37 Fortunately, despite Michael Gove being an irritating git generally, he stopped the ICT curriculum after Eric Schmidt's comments and the lobbying/press around RPi etc. Jul 27 12:02:01 Unfortunately, this has meant lots of teachers don't know how to do the new requirements when it restarts in September. Jul 27 12:02:25 Hopefully, the production launch of the RPi will come with sufficient number of educational resources to make it relevant (and necessary) Jul 27 12:02:46 what's so fun in the RPi? Jul 27 12:03:26 kerio: In general? Cheap & GPIO & press attention Jul 27 12:03:42 hm, the gpio could be neat Jul 27 12:03:50 anything else can be done better by a sheevaplug Jul 27 12:04:05 Depends what you want to do. Jul 27 12:04:42 If you want to get a movement going, and re-energise people into hacking, you need momentum & press. The Pi has that, so it's therefore the best vanguard ATM Jul 27 12:05:09 the sheevaplug is quite a bit more expensive thou? Jul 27 12:05:37 About $100 according to a quick Google Jul 27 12:05:38 at least mine was, and no display/audio out Jul 27 12:06:00 the only thing it has over the rpi i guess is ram size Jul 27 12:06:20 Alison Randall gave a very cool talk at oscon on the hardware & software she used to do home automation and smart home stuff. Jul 27 12:06:21 cpu might be a tad better as well, but gpu in rpi should compensate Jul 27 12:07:28 http://jeelabs.com/products/jeenode looks cool, as does http://www.tinkerforge.com/ and http://ninjablocks.com/ Jul 27 12:09:05 the jeenode has an 8-bit cpu Jul 27 12:09:10 neat Jul 27 12:10:21 Yeah, she ended up writing her own TCP/IP stack for the 66 byte packets so it was easier to program. That's how she defines "easier" Jul 27 12:10:54 heh Jul 27 12:12:54 http://www.oscon.com/oscon2012/public/schedule/detail/24392 - more detail in the slides, but no video of the very cool session (even if the live demo didn't completely work 100%) Jul 27 12:13:23 (Bah, got the double 'l's the wrong way round in her name) Jul 27 13:14:13 vi__ But you can have FROOT NINJA on the n900 ._. Jul 27 13:16:32 hmm, nokia n9 for 2000SAR Jul 27 13:16:38 reasonable price? Jul 27 13:17:03 533 bucks! :G Jul 27 13:17:38 little bit more than that in reality Jul 27 13:17:44 nobody ever gets google exchange rate Jul 27 13:22:52 *cough* xe.com/ucc Jul 27 13:23:11 "Mid-market rates" Jul 27 13:23:20 I guess Google displays the same rates. Jul 27 13:24:12 if you get some cash at that rate let me know Jul 27 13:24:25 ;P fat chance. Jul 27 13:32:36 hm, what's the "firefox" in ovi store? Jul 27 13:32:39 is it an old version of fennec? Jul 27 13:34:11 yes Jul 27 13:34:29 just steer clear from fennec unless someone finally made it usable Jul 27 13:34:45 its really bad to be spoiled by chrome on nexus7 :< Jul 27 13:34:53 but good thing that Android is a pos Jul 27 13:36:01 Lava_Croft: if you want to make a new port of Chrome to Fremanle, I'm sure nobody will complain. Jul 27 13:36:09 zeq1: no shit Jul 27 13:36:12 i wouldnt complain either! Jul 27 13:36:20 well, i would, since chrome is odd Jul 27 13:36:30 there's already websites that state you need Chrome to view them Jul 27 13:36:35 so its getting a bit MSIE6 now Jul 27 13:41:39 Lava_Croft: I'm going to get back to fennec again once I've finished with the SB infrastructure bits Jul 27 13:42:01 zeq1: i was being a bit harsh :< Jul 27 13:42:11 i very much appreciate the work on fennec! Jul 27 13:42:23 Maemo mirror.list for apt-mirror is complete: https://wiki.maemo.org/Apt-mirror Jul 27 13:42:27 its basically the only close-to-normal browser for the n900 Jul 27 13:42:31 Who has enought space for backup?? Jul 27 13:42:46 Lava_Croft: Bit annoying that the tab bar and the navigation bar don't scroll out of the way on the Nexus 7 - especially in landscape Jul 27 13:42:53 Jaffa: yes Jul 27 13:42:59 and its camera is just wtf Jul 27 13:43:04 might as well have not included it Jul 27 13:43:22 Pali: Page doesn't say how much, or how much it changes per day Jul 27 13:43:24 overall im not a fan of the Android OS anyway:< Jul 27 13:43:34 but the price/quality on the Nexus7 is ridiculously good Jul 27 13:43:59 i imported mine from the US, saved me 100euros in comparison to the 250euro price they put on it once it releases here in the Netherlands Jul 27 13:44:09 100euros is a bit steep for a europowerplug Jul 27 13:44:19 Jaffa, I do not know how many GB space is needed... Jul 27 13:44:28 I only created mirror.list files Jul 27 13:44:40 Pali: is that 'everything'? Jul 27 13:44:50 Lava_Croft, what I know Jul 27 13:45:00 i cant back it up, but ill ask around Jul 27 13:45:03 this is fairly important Jul 27 13:45:13 maybe the guy hosting my irssi can back it up Jul 27 13:45:15 I think there should be all for fremantle Jul 27 13:46:13 Lava_Croft: I might've bought one whilst in the US last week, but didn't find one in stock. Had a play with one back in the UK and the hardware's nice, the OS feels less cluttered on the big screen but the virtual keyboard buttons annoyed me whilst trying to type quickly in landscape (something that I can do well on the iPad) Jul 27 13:46:35 yup Jul 27 13:46:44 its basically my galaxy nexus, only bigger, faster and without 2g/3g radios Jul 27 13:46:53 same goes for most apps from Google Play Jul 27 13:47:03 its just treated as a big phone, sadly Jul 27 13:47:35 and the keyboard, well Jul 27 13:47:39 never liked android keyb:X Jul 27 13:48:07 its very uncomfortable to type in landscape, and my wife feels its not as accurate either Jul 27 13:48:11 she uses mostly just portrait mode Jul 27 13:48:17 damn, the nexus 7 looks yummy Jul 27 13:48:20 (not as accurate as her iphone4) Jul 27 13:48:43 i must say that Minecraft PE is pretty neat on it tho Jul 27 13:48:49 :) Jul 27 13:49:03 but damn 250euro price Jul 27 13:49:12 150euros would be great, but 250 is just too much Jul 27 13:49:18 damn euro prices Jul 27 13:49:53 250e comes too close to a previous-gen ipad Jul 27 13:49:55 or a used ipad Jul 27 13:52:42 Will be interesting to see if Apple do come out with an iPad "Mini" at a similar price point Jul 27 13:52:57 They probably will Jul 27 13:53:07 What I am more interested in is their logic behind making one:) Jul 27 13:53:18 Since Emperor Jobs already declared them dead on arrivale Jul 27 13:59:13 Lava_Croft: The screen size comparison is quite convincing. 7.85" 4:3 vs. 7" 16:9 will be a big difference (especially in landscape typing) Jul 27 13:59:45 The only question is then if 7.85" 4:3 is too big. It won't fit in jacket pockets, for example, unlike the 7" 16:9 form-factor and Kindle Jul 27 14:04:03 ~pali Jul 27 14:04:04 from memory, pali is http://atrey.karlin.mff.cuni.cz/~pali/ Jul 27 14:26:06 is there a way to *set* the data counters? Jul 27 14:32:39 just in case anyone wonders, maemo + harm ssu and sdk repost are 32gb in total Jul 27 14:36:03 merlin1991: fits perfectly in the n900! :D Jul 27 14:36:28 did anyone try to boost the bluetooth antenna in some whay? Jul 27 14:36:30 *way Jul 27 14:52:10 Anyone knows when ARM9 has been introduced? Jul 27 15:33:55 kerio; same antenna as wifi Jul 27 15:34:03 ok then Jul 27 15:34:09 did someone try to boost the wifi antenna in some way? Jul 27 15:34:29 my bt headphones kinda suck if my phone is in my pants' pockets Jul 27 15:34:46 they work fine if the phone is in a jacket's pocket Jul 27 15:36:43 mine seems to only jitter if wifi on n900 is used simultaneously Jul 27 16:55:54 so what became of our nandtester? Jul 27 16:58:06 kerio: I had that effect with Samsung Omnia. turned out it was the "turn face down to mute2 function that sucked bigtime when phone got shaken by walking Jul 27 17:16:19 DocScrutinizer05: nah, it's the actual range here Jul 27 17:16:31 in the back pocket the effect is much less disruptive Jul 27 17:16:45 i suppose it's just crappy range on both parts Jul 27 17:16:51 plus my body in the middle Jul 27 17:17:01 but hey, fat shouldn't block radio :s Jul 27 17:21:01 Just about to make a wiki entry with all this dbus information I have been collecting Jul 27 17:32:33 DocScrutinizer05: Nandtester? vi__'s brainchild you mean? Jul 27 18:03:48 I meant satru7 Jul 27 18:06:11 sambo7 Jul 27 18:08:14 DocScrutinizer51: how did you do that? :O Jul 27 18:19:30 ok, I got all the dbus information that I can get at this point, will post it all to the wiki tommorow Jul 27 18:20:16 kerio: do what? Jul 27 18:20:29 vquery matokla Jul 27 18:31:12 unfortunately wasn't able to proceed on my nandtest issue...my cousin's internet is down,so wasn't able to download the images Jul 27 18:31:22 but at least some progress with the device...when connected to usb,the led is constantly on yellow/orange...maybe I can continue tomorrow evening Jul 27 19:35:16 sambo7: nope, as constant amber means your battery is too depelted to flash Jul 27 19:44:40 Wow, 831 lines of productive discussions about porting, replacing closed bits, etc Jul 27 19:44:43 It was pleasure to read Jul 27 19:45:13 it's exactly the kind of things i *love* to see on IRC, when logged in. Funny, as actually, it seems that much more work is going under the hood, than in harmattan world Jul 27 19:46:02 ...with great part of it being done from people that received CA awards, and despite fact, that 50 other devices were given to boost up harmattan development (as addition to 300 before) Jul 27 19:46:09 well, Maemo is truly unique, no matter what Jul 27 19:46:24 (Maemo as in "maemo and friends" i.e. including Mer) Jul 27 19:47:07 DocScrutinizer, have You checked Pali's hostmode implementation? I know that kernel side is based on hostmode, but do You know, maybe, what was improved/fixed, or what can be potentialy worse than in hen? Jul 27 19:47:32 Pali's work looks very neat, I just wonder if there was something fixed, above what is in HEN Jul 27 19:47:48 or it's rather properly implementing it in kernel and user-space, but without any changes to merit of operation Jul 27 19:47:54 (except for auto-guessing of speed) Jul 27 19:50:15 @Doc at least better than no reaction whatsoever when connecting to usb/power Jul 27 19:53:23 sambo7, how cold flashing went? Jul 27 19:53:31 practically, you have two Hw revisions in circulation Jul 27 19:53:47 2101 and 2204 Jul 27 19:53:53 the first one is most popular Jul 27 19:54:02 couldn't do it today...my cousins internet was down,so was unable to download images Jul 27 19:54:04 so you should try those two only, other 2 are practically non-existant Jul 27 19:54:11 ouh Jul 27 19:54:16 I though You have them already Jul 27 19:54:46 no,wanted to download them,but don't have a flat here(on vacation) Jul 27 19:55:06 so wanted to do it at my cousins house... Jul 27 19:55:20 hope to proceed tomorrow Jul 27 19:55:30 DocScrutinizer, as for busybox and unix tools, I agree with the unix tools aprts, of course, but... Jul 27 19:55:51 it's kinda "You fault" - as ps aux works well in busybox-power, which is exactly full fledged mainstream busybox (ash) with unix tools :) Jul 27 19:56:26 but rather in the evening hours...was damn hot today,tomorrow the same...so I'll spend the day on the lake Jul 27 19:56:32 ...available on both normal working time, and all kind of recovery consoles. bash for working day is good, probably, when someone is used to it, but I feel sorry for anyone wanting to use it at boot time Jul 27 19:56:43 sambo7, 31 C degrees here Jul 27 19:57:02 no need to go to egypth Jul 27 19:57:24 the same here...Masuria,poland Jul 27 19:57:37 though I actually live in Germany Jul 27 19:58:07 ~weather eddn Jul 27 19:58:10 Nuernberg, Germany; (EDDN) 49-30N 011-03E 318M; last updated: 2012.07.27 1950 UTC; Dew Point: 57 F (14 C); Pressure (altimeter): 29.83 in. Hg (1010 hPa); Relative Humidity: 42%; Temperature: 82 F (28 C); Visibility: greater than 7 mile(s); Wind: from the SE (130 degrees) at 9 MPH (8 KT) Jul 27 19:58:15 well, Poznan, Poland ;) Jul 27 19:58:26 I supposed You must be from Poland, when talking about high temperatures Jul 27 19:58:46 don't know why, because other places are hot too Jul 27 19:58:54 :-) Jul 27 19:59:09 was born in Poland,moved to Germany as a kid Jul 27 19:59:39 enjoying vacations, eh? what made you to try nandtest when outside home wih recovery tools? Jul 27 19:59:44 with* Jul 27 20:00:01 aanyway, enjoy Your time here, masuria is great :) Jul 27 20:00:06 went past Poznan when going na Mazury Jul 27 20:00:49 meh, we had >35°C today Jul 27 20:00:54 my device was suddenly factory default'ed Jul 27 20:01:06 didn't change anything Jul 27 20:01:27 sambo7, before test? Jul 27 20:01:31 just out of nothing? Jul 27 20:01:37 was looking for a way to restore may yappari.conf Jul 27 20:01:39 before test Jul 27 20:01:56 because registration doesn't work anymore Jul 27 20:02:08 ~piglatin nand test Jul 27 20:02:10 andnay esttay Jul 27 20:02:13 but managed to register before reg process was changed Jul 27 20:02:23 whatever yappari is, name suggest some closed, commercial, privacy abusing communicator Jul 27 20:02:34 or social something Jul 27 20:02:44 so with the old conf I could have continued to run yappari Jul 27 20:02:56 a whatsapp clobne Jul 27 20:02:59 clone Jul 27 20:03:07 it was just wild guess, have I hit the 100 points?;p Jul 27 20:03:11 haha Jul 27 20:03:31 well, it's probably problematic for You, and everyone si free to use whatever wants... Jul 27 20:03:41 But have you never considered using some FOSS alternative? Jul 27 20:03:54 it's developed by a guy from South America...look for it in the maemo-forum Jul 27 20:04:00 the one you mentioned (main, not yappari) is kinda last thing that I woudl trust Jul 27 20:04:01 you get a 1000 Jul 27 20:04:05 well, maybe facebook is lower on list Jul 27 20:04:30 yes, I know why name sound familliar - it spammed "latest activity" on TMO for some time Jul 27 20:04:45 don't like/use facebook either Jul 27 20:04:52 why not jabber (or it's current name, that I can't remember), or any else proper tool? Jul 27 20:04:55 ~rot13 andnay esttay Jul 27 20:04:56 naqanl rfggnl Jul 27 20:05:10 ~piglatin naqanl rfggnl Jul 27 20:05:11 aqanlnay rfggnlay Jul 27 20:05:18 DocScrutinizer, learning troll's language to see through their plans? Jul 27 20:05:22 ??? Jul 27 20:05:22 and that's what you did to your NJ900 Jul 27 20:05:57 DocScrutinizer, don't be so pesimistic, inf act it's interesting, how easily CAL can be restored Jul 27 20:06:03 I bet on cold flash solving it all Jul 27 20:06:18 ATM he can't restore even his battery Jul 27 20:06:25 it's in emergency flat Jul 27 20:06:27 btw kick in nandtest ass for not providing any warnings Jul 27 20:06:54 battery can be charged externally, the thing is about if cold flash could pass without cal and restore it, which I hope for Jul 27 20:07:44 we'll see Jul 27 20:07:46 am very exited if it'll work out...will see tomorrow,I hope Jul 27 20:08:09 Well, I've just went through 831 lines of productive discussion in #maemo, then wanted to check #harmattan and saw who is writing hat there... Well, it looks kinda miserable, compared to #maemo. I udnerstand now, why many people that got N950 are absent there Jul 27 20:08:09 well, if and only if you manage to carge your battery until tomorrow Jul 27 20:08:35 DocScrutinizer, any external charge/other phone using bl-5J should do it quickly Jul 27 20:08:42 30 minutes for having usable power level Jul 27 20:08:47 don't have external charger here Jul 27 20:08:49 1 hour to be sure ;) Jul 27 20:08:50 Estel_: preaching to the choir? Jul 27 20:09:09 Estel_: see? ^^^ Jul 27 20:09:21 DocScrutinizer, rather diplomatically saying that #harmattan got flooded by rats shit content Jul 27 20:09:25 see what? Jul 27 20:09:35 don't have external charger here Jul 27 20:09:39 yea Jul 27 20:09:58 5V power supply and bunch of resistors should make it to 30% of state of charge :P Jul 27 20:10:06 sambo7: don't even think about flashing until you charged your battery Jul 27 20:10:09 will be right back...am speaking to my girl;-) Jul 27 20:11:02 DocScrutinizer, playing mcgyver, he could always find some old, uneeded peice of electronic, like old analog phone or whatever, and use aprts to drop voltage from 5V Ps to less than 4.2 Jul 27 20:11:06 yea, kinda extreme Jul 27 20:11:10 I'm just theoretizing Jul 27 20:11:37 but should be quite easy, and even fun and entertaining experience ;) Jul 27 20:11:52 like fixing IR-LED? ;-P Jul 27 20:12:00 as soon as LiIon's won't start exploding, of course Jul 27 20:12:08 DocScrutinizer, yea, but that one was more extreme Jul 27 20:12:14 but, after all, it's working, including Ir led! Jul 27 20:12:34 I'm stubbornm son of a... so i couldn't left it like that, and opened it again, to solder the same led back again Jul 27 20:12:56 fun fact - judging by visible light when looking via digital camera, it looks like making more clear beam, now Jul 27 20:13:01 :P Jul 27 20:13:14 I outright refuse to tell guys who mess with nandtest how to rape their LiIon Jul 27 20:13:18 (comparing to spare N900 with untouched IR) Jul 27 20:13:31 DocScrutinizer, free knowledge for all :) Jul 27 20:13:38 since I'm not the bastard from hell some think I am Jul 27 20:13:38 explosives in basement for all Jul 27 20:14:08 bubut seriously, I'm sure sambo7 won't try that, but if he would want to, he for sure will read *this* message that LiIon like to explode when threaten badly Jul 27 20:14:14 or, at least, "vent with flame" Jul 27 20:14:59 i.e. never ever charge it with anything higher than 4.2 V output, and never ever try to charge it to the end via homemade 5V to <4.2 V reduction, as it's still lackign saturation Jul 27 20:15:18 so could be used to charge for 50-70% max, and personally, I would never charge it more than 50% Jul 27 20:15:23 this way Jul 27 20:15:28 /disclaimer end Jul 27 20:17:08 well, wanna go extreme? at last resort, everything needed to charge battery is rice, bunch of small containers, soil (as in earth) and cable or any other well-conductive material Jul 27 20:18:11 mix rice with soil and water, heat it a little, and clsoe in small container. After 2 days it will start to produce ~15 mA @ 0.5V. Some creative paralle and linear connections, and You can charge Your battery via "green" energy..,.:P Jul 27 20:18:47 takes a little longer...women use a lot more words a day than men;-) Jul 27 20:18:47 ok, enuf of joking, time for work (despite it being entirely true, power is produced via bacteria) Jul 27 20:19:20 (pros - it can work for as long as year, without re-filling) Jul 27 20:24:36 won't be making up another mess after "nandtesting" my device...electronics is "a book with 7 seals"...->don't know anything about it Jul 27 20:29:54 sambo7: go to next shop, buy either a charger or a BL-5J which you tell the dude to charge for you before you buy it Jul 27 20:30:26 'used' BL-5J are like 10EUR in EURope Jul 27 20:32:12 you even might get a used compatible Nokia featurephone for 10..20EUR Jul 27 20:32:33 incl a BL-5J Jul 27 20:32:55 don't know if I will get it here...I guess I'll spend my day tomorrow rather with enjoying the sun/lake at approx. 30-35° than searching for a charger Jul 27 20:33:48 but in the early morning I could make a trip to town & city if I can find something Jul 27 20:55:14 What is this London 2012 thing everyone is talking about? Jul 27 20:58:46 sorta musical nobody knows what's the plot of it Jul 27 21:01:37 @Doc...cool pic on google+ Jul 27 21:15:13 DocScrutinizer, could You remind me name of charging chip inside N900? Jul 27 21:17:15 bq24150 Jul 27 21:17:43 thanks a lot Jul 27 21:17:56 I though about asking You, but wouldn't dare to ping You out of blue sky Jul 27 21:18:07 google was answering with bq2415x family ;) Jul 27 21:20:36 * ShadowJK just finished rewiring and rebooting after an ups failure Jul 27 21:26:07 UPS significantly *increases* the likelihood of complete failure due to power outage, in my book Jul 27 21:26:50 unless you use true redundancy design, means tower with two PSU etc Jul 27 21:28:05 the sort of stuff that costs 10 times as much as a comparable standard PC Jul 27 21:30:48 DocScrutinizer05: good UPSes have bypass contactor Jul 27 21:31:14 yeah, and it's exactly that one that usually fails Jul 27 21:31:28 It had been working nicely for bridging 1-2s power gaps that I get, but then it seems like it failed during self test this morning, and all attached equipment lost power "instantly", for duration of self test Jul 27 21:31:36 well, chances of UPS failing and bypass contactor failing are unlikely Jul 27 21:31:54 and besides, dual PSU Jul 27 21:33:17 The main switches for our ISP has dual UPS and dual PSU. Unfortunately using qualified electricians seems to counter this, and the dual PSUs in the switch are fed from a single 24VPSU fed by a single UPS Jul 27 21:45:22 anybody used qtm proximity sensor on maemo? does it work? I just re-did something that works on harmattan on maemo but the slot is never triggered Jul 27 22:03:33 ShadowJK, lol Jul 27 22:04:08 does anyone know if regular polycarbonate foils would work in capacitive screens? Jul 27 22:04:37 following wikipedika explanation of capacitive (transparent conductive material on top) it shouldn't work good, but something tells me that wikipedia article isn't entiurely precise here Jul 27 22:05:08 [citation needed] Jul 27 22:05:24 basically, I located cheap good quality foild for N9, which should fit for N950 too, but I'm concerned about capacitive sh*t Jul 27 22:06:01 * ShadowJK vaguely remembers some nokian commenting that the capacitive touch sensor is already borderline with the curved glass shenanigans Jul 27 22:06:24 ShadowJK, yea, but N950 doesn't have curved-glass Jul 27 22:06:33 if I understood correctly what You mean Jul 27 22:06:41 ah Jul 27 22:07:24 my favorite "mark" of foils works well for N900 screen - i.e. 0 sensitivity loss - but resistive is resistive, and capacitive is irritating shit... Jul 27 22:08:56 I always try my bets to keep screens in ideal state, and considering N950 unreplaceable (non purchaseable) digitizer, It's even double Jul 27 22:09:55 I also wonder about best material for doing as-thin-as-possible capacitive stylus, gog damn capacitive screens... It will probably turn out to be fubar anyway, due to lower limit of area required for touch detection Jul 27 22:10:51 I just wonder if true conductive thing like conductive foam is required, as, after all, my figners are not made of metal too... other material with comparable or better conductivity than human body, yet, not necessary mettalic, should work too Jul 27 22:14:46 I'll answer myself - yes, it works with screen protector (tested it with putting one on it, without sticking) Jul 27 22:15:08 (i.e. via 2 more layers of foils that protect protector foil, yet, screen still worked) Jul 27 22:15:30 now I wonder what kind of resistivity stylus needs really, if 3 layers of foil are no problem Jul 27 22:16:09 * ShadowJK suspects it's about distance Jul 27 22:16:38 but metal styluses works from huge distance (tested it with broken telescopic antenna) Jul 27 22:17:00 this capacitive shit is still kinda mystery for me, other than it just suxx in practice Jul 27 22:17:56 it's probably some kind of distance and resistance plot Jul 27 22:18:48 I suspect if the foil was conductive, you'd have problems Jul 27 22:19:06 of course foil isn't Jul 27 22:19:07 yea Jul 27 22:19:20 I would have 100% screen touch detected Jul 27 22:19:24 aka palm on screen Jul 27 22:20:01 still, fingers - much less conductive than metal - works even through many layers of foil, so I wonder what else than conductive foam could be used Jul 27 22:20:16 for a stylus tip Jul 27 22:20:25 sausage Jul 27 22:20:29 ;P Jul 27 22:20:35 someone's else finger Jul 27 22:20:38 more cool Jul 27 22:21:23 :-S Jul 27 22:21:39 female I would take metallic stylus, rip off plastic tip, and replace it with said material, neutral for screen (and much bigger in diameter than oriuginal tip, to fulfill bitchy requiments for touch area) Jul 27 22:21:56 DocScrutinizer, female finger with nice long tips Jul 27 22:22:06 time for hunting! Jul 27 22:23:04 *after quick check* index finger should be sufficient Jul 27 22:23:13 where is my toolbox Jul 27 22:23:34 http://www.google.de/imgres?imgurl=http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/13/Wiener_Wuerstchen_fcm.jpg/220px-Wiener_Wuerstchen_fcm.jpg&imgrefurl=http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wiener_W%25C3%25BCrstchen&h=168&w=220&sz=12&tbnid=GJUyhF2aBx1xlM:&tbnh=91&tbnw=119&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dwiener%2Bwuerstchen%26tbm%3Disch%26tbo%3Du&zoom=1&q=wiener+wuerstchen&usg=__OVLuGJJLYpJXSOKe1lqM-YjbVxo=&docid=oOuBnl2QXvcjEM&sa=X&ei=ghQTUNm- Jul 27 22:23:36 LOTP4QTy9IHQBQ&ved=0CF4Q9QEwAQ&dur=2890 economy pack of stylii. Don't forget to integrate mustard dispenser in your N9 custom case Jul 27 22:23:47 dafaq those URLs Jul 27 22:23:49 wut a epic link? Jul 27 22:23:50 :-( Jul 27 22:24:09 http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wiener_Würstchen Jul 27 22:24:22 well, I still insist on using female index fingers Jul 27 22:24:27 fsck google Jul 27 22:24:32 most likely, of Nokia's management staff origin Jul 27 22:24:46 I heard they don't taste with mustard Jul 27 22:24:52 a way of saying "Thank You" for capacitive screen Jul 27 22:24:57 sure Jul 27 22:25:10 we can prepare them in spiritus Jul 27 22:25:15 like lenin's brain Jul 27 22:25:47 I wonder how marinating in spiritus affect's finger's conductivity Jul 27 22:25:49 I've been wondering about that. Jul 27 22:25:54 Conductive clear silicone rubber. Jul 27 22:26:03 separated fingers, or capacitive styli? Jul 27 22:26:19 wtf, something like that even exist? it must be damn expensive Jul 27 23:38:57 Estel_, have you seen the SU-39 stylus? Jul 27 23:39:34 this one? : http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Su-39 Jul 27 23:39:37 to huge for a styli Jul 27 23:40:08 hahaha, yeah Jul 27 23:40:24 but seriouslky, I've found it, nokia one... Well, thanks a lot, will check how it's made Jul 27 23:40:33 http://images.e-shop.gr/images/TEL/BIG/TEL.006793.jpg Jul 27 23:40:44 I'm quite late as per TMO events, how Your great efforts of providing fremantle for harmattan are going? Jul 27 23:40:48 s/fremantle/hildon/ Jul 27 23:40:50 Estel_ meant: I'm quite late as per TMO events, how Your great efforts of providing hildon for harmattan are going? Jul 27 23:41:02 I've said fremantle, because it's albo about other programs, not only hildon-ui Jul 27 23:41:03 I got one but doesn't work for any of high end nokias Jul 27 23:41:21 qwazix, so it doesn't work for N950/N9? Jul 27 23:41:29 I don't know if it's defective or it only works for C6 Jul 27 23:41:43 no, you have to touch it in weird angles to work Jul 27 23:41:54 how it's made? i.e. tip, and rest, what material is it? Jul 27 23:42:00 so that more area touches Jul 27 23:42:08 seems like plastic Jul 27 23:42:11 probably it's about detection area required by screen's driver Jul 27 23:42:18 probably Jul 27 23:42:35 well, so in C6 they used brain and made required detection area smaller, eh? Jul 27 23:42:37 it's not only the tip that's capacitive, but the whole thing Jul 27 23:42:42 it's pity that brain vanished from them later Jul 27 23:42:55 and capacitive stylus can't be defective, it's just material of set conductivity Jul 27 23:43:07 if you touch the side it also registers a touch (with a bit of effort) Jul 27 23:43:08 I wonder what it is, no metal, but not regular plastic too Jul 27 23:43:13 something more conductive for sure Jul 27 23:43:24 * Estel_ nods Jul 27 23:43:28 I wonder what will happen if I file the tip down to make it wider Jul 27 23:43:43 if Yuo can make it 15 mm in diameter, it will work :P Jul 27 23:43:47 wlel, maybe 10mm will suffice Jul 27 23:44:05 About fremantle->harmattan I stalled because I want to finish rawcam for the coding competition Jul 27 23:44:18 in any way, it is too much for comfortable use in real things :( but it's capacitive screen design fail, at least in this unit (and most available on market) Jul 27 23:44:26 qwazix, I see Jul 27 23:44:37 but I've got some useful pointers from cordia team, I just probably need to start over... Jul 27 23:44:38 well, fremantle for harmattan would surely win all categories in CC :D Jul 27 23:44:47 nice Jul 27 23:45:21 yeah, but I don't think I would have anything end-user friendly before the deadline Jul 27 23:46:04 By the way wacom over capacitive as on the Galaxy Note wins everything Jul 27 23:46:11 hands down Jul 27 23:46:27 then comes a good resistive (N810, N900, 5800) Jul 27 23:46:42 wacom on capacitive have pressure sensitivity? Jul 27 23:46:46 like for mypaint? Jul 27 23:47:51 then a good capacitive iPhone, N9, then crappy resistive (C6-00, craplets, vodafone joy), then crappy capacitive (Original samsung galaxy i5700) Jul 27 23:47:57 well, I preffer good resistive, and when they add multitouch (which is very effective, as many vedors proved), I don't see any technical reasons for capacitive digitizers to exist, other than annoy by need of special PITA styluses, huge detection area, and problems for usage with gloves Jul 27 23:48:18 yep, very nice pressure sensitivity, pity that mypaint doesn't run on android Jul 27 23:48:31 well, pity that samsung galaxy runs android :D Jul 27 23:48:42 shame on them, decent hardware is wasting Jul 27 23:49:05 Yeah, and although plastic, quality is very good Jul 27 23:49:19 hm, so wacom created something usable out of capacitive screens? sounds nice. What about touch area detected? Is it comfortable to hit ultra-mini buttons, like on N900 and Easy debian, for example? Jul 27 23:50:16 as in my book, main con of capacitive screens is lack of precision when you need to hit small thing... Jul 27 23:50:22 then pressure sensitivity Jul 27 23:50:34 With stylus yes, with fingers, the usual. It also supports hover (yay) with cursor, and when stylus is hovering over screen finger touches are ignored Jul 27 23:50:39 btw in point 1 i also include lack of proper styluses Jul 27 23:51:01 well, decent application, at least Jul 27 23:51:18 so it's kinda touch screen/touchpad/tablet (as in painting) combo? Jul 27 23:51:50 hats off, really. Pity that others don't try to do something like that... Or in fact instead of spending much $$$ on expensive wacom, just use good resistive with multitouch :P Jul 27 23:51:58 (but I agree, that this wacom thing sounds neat) Jul 27 23:52:07 it's just like having a wacom tablet over your phone. My regular wacom pen works fine on the Note Jul 27 23:52:24 so stylus for this wacom thing doesn't need to have huge tip, i.e. can be very small? eh, I beg for this on n950 Jul 27 23:52:33 with button support on the pen and all Jul 27 23:52:38 ouh, so it require special pen? Jul 27 23:52:42 I see Jul 27 23:52:44 yeah Jul 27 23:53:15 it has one included, the tip is small as a bic pen Jul 27 23:53:15 well, this way, I preffer good resistive that allows me to use any pen I lke, but, well,m it still sounds better than capacitive hell we have on N950/N9 Jul 27 23:53:37 yea, because pressure sensitivity/touch is detected via touch resistor in pen Jul 27 23:53:48 so it's, in fact, capacitive-resistive combo, but resistive part is in pen :P Jul 27 23:53:49 you've got to try it first Jul 27 23:53:58 I got wacom painting tablet Jul 27 23:54:07 so I can imagine experience of capacitive/wacom combo Jul 27 23:54:19 I wonder how it is about power usage when in wacom mode, though Jul 27 23:54:44 mm, I cant really say, the note is a power sucker by itself anyway Jul 27 23:55:10 yea, but wacom things are, in fact, active digitizers, so I bet that it sucks at least as much as whole N900 under middle usage Jul 27 23:55:14 moderate* Jul 27 23:55:32 well, small usage with screen on Jul 27 23:56:00 talking about that, bad design decisions can, actually, screw even best design, like resistive screens, so i'm glad that they did it right on galaxy Jul 27 23:56:19 if it's so power-sucker, it remind me of samsung q1-somethjing, from origami project Jul 27 23:56:26 it got ncie linux support Jul 27 23:56:38 x86 mobile computer, sized as thicker tablet, with resistive screen Jul 27 23:56:43 I'm googling every other day to check if somebody ported any proper linux on it but nothing Jul 27 23:56:54 would be kinda great, if not that suckers made this resistive screen driver totally prone to pressure sensitivity Jul 27 23:57:00 it's either "clicked" or not as in mouse Jul 27 23:57:01 idiots Jul 27 23:57:18 qwazix, won't happen, 'm afraid, would require hardware adaptation of Mer Jul 27 23:57:27 well, lets see what Jolla havfe for us Jul 27 23:57:36 after all, we have our N900, no matter what :) Jul 27 23:57:51 I have a remote hope that maybe a tizen adaptation shows up Jul 27 23:58:02 I've just ordered parts for usb to serial adaptor, and i'll make Ir receiver dongle for it, so it will learn signals from remotes Jul 27 23:58:17 I wouldn't count on tizen Jul 27 23:58:36 if Harmattan wasn't thing that fulfil Your dreams, You can be sure that tizen will be even more locked and overall badass Jul 27 23:59:57 I liked harmattan at first, but the fact that it has serious bugs bothers me Jul 28 00:01:29 I always used the N900 as mobile computer, never as a phone. I use it very heavily so I can never rely on it to have power at any given time. Jul 28 00:02:13 I prefer a slab or T9 for my primary phone, so that was N95->i8910->N9 Jul 28 00:04:02 and the N9 even without being what I dreamt as a N900 successor filled a hole in my usage pattern. A phone that I like to code for in a dumbed down form-factor and looking good which has a true linux as a (huge) bonus Jul 28 00:06:15 by the way I just made an app that shows the time when you pull the N900 out of your pocket Jul 28 00:06:54 I don't know how much power it sucks yet but it shouldn't be much unless polling the proximity sensor is power-hungry Jul 28 00:41:40 qwazix: it'd check if there is an api in place that you don't have to poll the sensor but instead get a notification on change Jul 28 00:41:51 s/it'd/I'd/ Jul 28 00:41:51 merlin1991 meant: qwazix: I'd check if there is an api in place that you don't have to poll the sensor but instead get a notification on change Jul 28 00:42:43 merlin1991, I tried with qtm but it didn't seem to fire the signal Jul 28 00:43:51 google doesn't give any useful results for N900 proximity sensor, so I just stole some code from another app in extras-something Jul 28 00:45:31 qtm as in "code I wrote for harmattan and works" Jul 28 00:53:51 qwazix, as I've asked in TMO thread- what about CPu updating screen on 60hz? Jul 28 00:54:06 You overcame it by some trick of one-per-minute snapshot frozen or screen, or it's still issue? Jul 28 00:54:42 No, I overcame it with showing the clock for only 6 seconds after the proximity sensor gets uncovered Jul 28 00:55:12 qwazix, as for N900 as mobile computer, I also use it as that mainly, to the point that I don't take notebook while travelling, just N900, portable usb keyboard and bluetooth mouse Jul 28 00:55:21 qwazix, ah Jul 28 00:55:28 so it's not showing clock all the time? Jul 28 00:55:37 So even if you pull the N900 out of your pocket every five minutes the total time shouldn't be too much for all day Jul 28 00:55:49 kinda equivalent for clicking power button yourself, +, without backlight, it probably uses less power than lockscreen showing Jul 28 00:55:59 No, I couldn't think of a better solution. Jul 28 00:56:00 sure, power usage should be minimal Jul 28 00:56:05 * Estel_ nods Jul 28 00:56:08 sounds sane, good work Jul 28 00:56:25 it's a pity that You can't force screen to show something and stop refreshing :P Jul 28 00:56:31 (until order given) Jul 28 00:56:55 refreshing it once per minute would suffice, then (with updated time) and it could stay without backlight all the time Jul 28 00:57:00 quite impossible, though, I suppose Jul 28 00:57:18 But I was thinking about my usecase of the N9 idle screen. Most of the times I just pull it out glance at the time and put it back. Also if the N900 is on the table, it's far easier to hover your finger over the proximity sensor than press the power button Jul 28 00:57:25 BTW, I can confirm, that for "dissapearing leds" bug, power-cycle is a proper solution Jul 28 00:57:34 (which has a bug and needs two clicks most of the time) Jul 28 00:57:42 I mean this thing, where sudden of nothing, both notification led and backlight ledf refuses to work, and live through power down and booting again Jul 28 00:57:54 I got just hit by it today, and removing battery for 30 seconds fixed it Jul 28 00:58:02 Yeah, happened to me yesterday Jul 28 00:58:25 qwazix, sure, Your clock is best we can achiueve, I suppose Jul 28 00:58:28 achieve* Jul 28 00:58:39 Annoying, I wanted to test if it had powered down properly so that I could swap batteries Jul 28 00:58:47 after installation, one can actyivate and deactivate it on demand, without uninstalling? Jul 28 00:58:54 via config file, control panel thing or whatever? Jul 28 00:59:07 qwazix, yea :P Jul 28 00:59:10 no, there isn't such a feature right now Jul 28 00:59:13 but You know what? Jul 28 00:59:25 when You're testing it, and led goes on for a while Jul 28 00:59:33 You again need to wait few seconds for it to shut down totally Jul 28 00:59:50 I used to do such test, buit it's poiuntless, better to wait a short while after powering down Jul 28 01:00:09 yeah, I was pressing the power instantly to see if it starts to light up Jul 28 01:00:19 BTW, as said, I also use it as mobile computer, but as primary (and only one, to be honest) phone. I overcame battery things with dual-scud and mugen cover Jul 28 01:00:24 + another dual-scud sitting in pocket Jul 28 01:00:26 and it booted again, so I had to wait for shutdown again Jul 28 01:00:37 soon, it will be even less of an issue, with 6800 mAh dual-18650 Jul 28 01:00:40 in custom body Jul 28 01:00:55 * ShadowJK 's N900 is primary phone (secondary phone is another N900) Jul 28 01:01:17 I wonder why led driver freaksd out like that... fortunately, it's not anything dangerous, i.e. it dissapear after cycle without any problems in months, many times Jul 28 01:01:20 I just carry an extra japod most of the time Jul 28 01:01:23 ShadowJK, haha Jul 28 01:01:32 Estel_, it's no joke :) Jul 28 01:01:33 I didn't go for mugen for the lack of camera cover Jul 28 01:01:37 ShadowJK, I know :) Jul 28 01:01:56 I would do the same, if not for fact, that my secondary N900's are in constant move, i.e. sold to someone or given to family members Jul 28 01:02:00 And I don't use mugen* anymore, heh Jul 28 01:02:22 so usually I have few N900 in house, but only one "mine" forever ;) Jul 28 01:02:23 ShadowJK, I also had that configuration for about a month or two, and then the N9 came out so I had to get one :) Jul 28 01:02:40 qwazix, wtf? I've posted tutorial how to add camera lens cover for muygen cover ages agfo Jul 28 01:02:42 ago* Jul 28 01:02:45 in battery's thread Jul 28 01:02:49 it's also in my signature Jul 28 01:03:00 I wouldn't accept lack of camera lens cover, too Jul 28 01:03:04 really? I never noticed that... Jul 28 01:03:13 see my signature on TMO :P Jul 28 01:03:16 I'm quite pleased, battery lasts for more than a shift at work while I'm online on irc and constantly listening to podcasts Jul 28 01:03:20 it's no-cost solution Jul 28 01:03:21 over bluetooth Jul 28 01:03:22 and works like a charm Jul 28 01:03:23 And I thought, I followed all interesting things on tmo Jul 28 01:03:48 * RST38h moos Jul 28 01:03:58 * ShadowJK follows nothing on tmo Jul 28 01:03:59 http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p=1038196&postcount=799 Jul 28 01:03:59 What's new and exciting? Jul 28 01:04:03 moo RST38h Jul 28 01:04:11 >> I've just ordered parts for usb to serial adaptor, and i'll make Ir receiver dongle for it, so it will learn signals from remotes<< lame :-P Jul 28 01:04:12 ShadowJK: Still using N900? Jul 28 01:04:18 RST38h, yes, absolutely Jul 28 01:04:26 DocAvalanche, why so?:) Jul 28 01:04:32 * RST38h switched to the Note lately Jul 28 01:04:45 I think it's even more important on the N900 because as it came with one, maybe the glass isn't as scratch resistant as on phones where no cover exists Jul 28 01:05:05 I fear the N950 camera glass very much as it's flush with the body Jul 28 01:05:09 [but would really wish he didn't] Jul 28 01:05:11 qwazix, the truth is that thing covering it is always plastic, and every is propne to scratches Jul 28 01:05:13 tmo is too high traffic / too high noise for me to follow Jul 28 01:05:18 camera lens cover is genious thing for N900 Jul 28 01:05:43 qwazix, same here, I actually cut polycarbonate protector foil and sticked it to N950 Jul 28 01:05:43 I wish I could get an N900 with more RAM and more cpu, but mostly more ram Jul 28 01:05:44 yes but couldn't they make the back flat? Jul 28 01:05:44 tmo is probably full by eager but dumb fanatics by now Jul 28 01:05:50 ShadowJK, exactly my thoughts Jul 28 01:05:53 ShadowJK: N9. Jul 28 01:06:09 nifty IR learning tool consists of two components: a 3.5mm jack and a phototransistor Jul 28 01:06:09 RST38h, N9 is so much effort to make usable? Jul 28 01:06:09 ShadowJK: The only app that manages to strain it is Firefox Mobile Jul 28 01:06:13 it's You who traced down same chips with 1GB of ram, impossible to solder without mega equipment, though Jul 28 01:06:21 ShadowJK: nah, it is ok, we have got one in the family Jul 28 01:06:26 DocAvalanche, serial one is more powerful ;) Jul 28 01:06:41 Atleast on android there's a VPN api, so I have a remote chance of being able to read my email Jul 28 01:06:43 ShadowJK: not as evil as free software people like to describe it, just quirky Jul 28 01:06:46 + have added benefit of possibility to act as IRda for legacy devices Jul 28 01:07:05 reading email on the move, which I thought was a major progress with the arrival of N900 :-) Jul 28 01:07:10 DocAvalanche, nevertheless, any software for utilizing jack signal input as IR one for N900 exist? Jul 28 01:07:28 ShadowJK: If you need VPN toread email, then maybe you do not need to read that email =) Jul 28 01:07:29 arecord ;-) Jul 28 01:07:43 RST38h, i also need it for irc and webs :-\ Jul 28 01:07:51 VPN? Why? Jul 28 01:08:16 locked ports, probably, intranet Jul 28 01:08:23 DocAvalanche, arecord? will check it Jul 28 01:08:26 Without openvpn I'd be disconnecting and reconnecting every 45 seconds or something, lol Jul 28 01:08:48 RST38h, don't make me lsit all fails of N9 as a mobile computer :P Jul 28 01:08:52 like capacitive screen Jul 28 01:09:05 or lack of you-know-what or even lack of-second-thing-you-know-about Jul 28 01:09:07 openvpn is that which bridges the gap when my actual public IP isn't public or changes rapidly :) Jul 28 01:09:25 ShadowJK: You are not using cellular IP? Jul 28 01:09:35 I've got an android tablet on the way to me anyways, let's see if I can make do with that Jul 28 01:09:44 Or your cellular service likes changing your IP address every minute? Jul 28 01:09:45 RST38h, what is "cellular IP"? Jul 28 01:09:58 Like, GPRS/3G/etc as opposed to Wifi Jul 28 01:10:28 DocAvalanche, how You want to transfer audio wave to good quality Ir signals understandable by other programs? Jul 28 01:10:40 * RST38h had no problem running IRC/SSH/etc via GPRS and UMTS Jul 28 01:10:48 Even on the move Jul 28 01:11:11 cellular connection have manyh cons, though :) Jul 28 01:11:25 coverage, price, transfer limits, ping Jul 28 01:11:28 qwazix: afaik you could get IRQ driven input from random GPIO by using some sysfs or proc or dev GPIO interface Jul 28 01:11:42 At home I get 3g upstairs and 2g downstairs, wifi AP1 west end of house and wifi AP2 east end of house. Mostly only east AP when outside. openvpn makes it all perfectly seamless. :-) Jul 28 01:12:09 You live in a castle? =) Jul 28 01:12:09 no wifi repeater mode, though? Jul 28 01:12:18 RST38h, I do not Jul 28 01:12:23 it's made out of wood Jul 28 01:12:27 and that too - a few repeaters would probably solve the problem Jul 28 01:12:30 so it's a fort Jul 28 01:12:34 seriously though, it's not uncommon Jul 28 01:12:37 ShadowJK: >8cm of wood? Jul 28 01:12:44 RST38h, yes Jul 28 01:12:44 Estel_: maybe by a 5-liner checking for absolute value maximum of a window of samples covering 1/40kHz Jul 28 01:12:57 There's not enough free spectrum for a repeater Jul 28 01:13:01 ShadowJK: Sounds serious Jul 28 01:13:05 DocScrutinizer, sure, but who will code that, if one can put serial adaptor via hostmode :P Jul 28 01:13:05 DocAvalanche, ehm I'd say that's greek to me but as I am Greek this wouldn't give the right message. Jul 28 01:13:06 not on 2.4Ghz atleast Jul 28 01:13:14 lol Jul 28 01:13:17 I know theory, I asked about ready to use tools Jul 28 01:13:41 * RST38h lived at the end of a 20m concrete funnel from the AP, and it was still ok Jul 28 01:13:44 Neighbour has one AP, so that leaves 2 frequencies available, and those are the frequencies used by the APs installed at either end of the house. Jul 28 01:13:47 qwazix, he mean that proximity sensor is GPIO Jul 28 01:13:55 (general purpose input-ouput) Jul 28 01:14:09 and that you could read it from sysfs or proc Jul 28 01:14:14 or GPIO interface Jul 28 01:14:18 ShadowJK: Switch to 802.11n, get one AP with many antennas Jul 28 01:14:30 ShadowJK: Will need a new phone though =( Jul 28 01:14:31 as for IRQ driven input, he would explain it better Jul 28 01:14:42 RST38h, 802.11n sucks Jul 28 01:14:50 it's good only for jamming neighbourns wifi Jul 28 01:15:01 qwazix: I think I heard the *wrt guys talking about it Jul 28 01:15:08 ShadowJK, AIUI, proper repeater repeats on same frequency? Jul 28 01:15:15 One of the APs have 11n with 3 antennas. It has shorter range than the WRT54GL with tomato firmware... Jul 28 01:15:25 also, the thing about total of 3 non-interlapping frequencies is true, but little overexagerrated Jul 28 01:15:30 Estel_, and halves bandwidth for every repeat? Jul 28 01:15:32 m,y neighbourns use all possible channels Jul 28 01:15:42 and I still have perfectly working wifi on high speeds and wide coverage Jul 28 01:15:58 ShadowJK, no idea, never played with repeaters in real life ;) Jul 28 01:16:09 instead, I have wrt54gl with DIY antennas Jul 28 01:16:17 qwazix: it's like "cd /sysfoo/hw/buttons; echo GPIO56 >enable; cat gpio56" Jul 28 01:16:30 could connect to it from next multi-house block Jul 28 01:16:32 mine has the 9dBm antennas Jul 28 01:16:42 or whatever, iirc 3 or 6dB over stock Jul 28 01:17:01 ShadowJK, they have 9dB in producent dreams, trust me on that (tm) Jul 28 01:17:11 DocAvalanche, and how do I get a signal that the value has changed? Jul 28 01:17:56 It's pretty spotty outside though. I can connect with phone at 50m if I stand in the right place, but there's no "universal" coverage even at 20m outside (transmitter is indoors) Jul 28 01:17:58 You either tunnel rango into shape that suits Your need, or you have flat one, only one gain possible via antennas is spectrum shaping Jul 28 01:18:24 qwazix: on cursory read I think you wanna know this: http://www.acmesystems.it/gpio_sysfs Jul 28 01:18:39 ShadowJK, because those 9dB antennas have stupid spectrum shape, probably Jul 28 01:18:46 it's quite possible, that they emit msot power straight up Jul 28 01:18:49 most* Jul 28 01:18:58 in extreme case Jul 28 01:19:18 The unmodified 11n AP with original 3 antennas in place does worse :-) Jul 28 01:19:22 I suspect good DIY fractal is something that would make you King of the Hill, aka Your neighbourns would need to worry about free frequencies :P Jul 28 01:19:33 ShadowJK, sure, as 802.11n sucks Jul 28 01:19:51 it's good for having high bandwidth in 5 meters between router and desk Jul 28 01:19:57 qwazix: still polling :-/ Jul 28 01:20:14 + in some models to jam surrounding g networks Jul 28 01:20:17 If I put fractal antenna on first floor, there'll only be one single neighbour within the radio horizon to worry about. Jul 28 01:20:25 qwazix: ...but I *think* I've seen a way to attach a 'callback' Jul 28 01:20:54 ShadowJK, I was rather about fractal of correwct shape and turned correctly, to shape radio spectrum to your needs Jul 28 01:21:01 i.e. solid coverage where You need it Jul 28 01:21:05 and no free wifi for birds Jul 28 01:21:11 or passing helis Jul 28 01:21:58 qwazix: https://www.ridgerun.com/developer/wiki/inde >>Configure GPIO an an interrupt source<< Jul 28 01:22:03 for example, simple sierpinski gasket fractal antenna - few minutes of work - is able to provide 1000 meter reliable link between two wrt54gl. But, it's spectrum is VERY wide, very directional Jul 28 01:22:09 dafaq Jul 28 01:22:16 https://www.ridgerun.com/developer/wiki/index.php/How_to_use_GPIO_signals Jul 28 01:22:32 antennas are all abotu resoning to required frequency (I hope that producent of those 9dB haven't screwed that) and shaping spectrum, no other magic gain possible Jul 28 01:22:40 nomatter what I do, there will be disconnects though Jul 28 01:22:43 it's gain in some aprt of spectrum's shape, and loss in another Jul 28 01:22:45 which is the original topic Jul 28 01:22:56 with one router covering house and garden? Jul 28 01:23:02 qwazix: >>If you have a GPIO that is an input, and you have an application you want to block waiting for the GPIO to change level, you can configure the GPIO as an interrupt source. You also need to configure if the interrupt occurs when the GPIO signal has a rising edge, a falling edge, or interrupts on both rising and falling edges. Once configured as an interrupt, your application can read the value file and the read will block until the Jul 28 01:23:04 interrupt occurs, then your application will return from the read system call and continue running.<< Jul 28 01:23:14 Estel_, the range is finite Jul 28 01:23:22 qwazix, instead of reinventing whell, why won't You just use shortcutd daemon? Jul 28 01:23:34 ShadowJK, You've said You don't live in castle ;) Jul 28 01:23:44 sure, I'm not insisting, it's Your wifi after all Jul 28 01:23:54 Estel_, the range is still finite Jul 28 01:24:04 but I nyet have to see single-family house, that can't be covered byt single, properly configured and "antenna'ed" wrt54GL Jul 28 01:24:07 qwazix: now say "thank you, doc!" ;-P Jul 28 01:24:28 well, one of them, set up by me, is providing access for 100+ people in multi-family block house Jul 28 01:24:31 SINGLE unit Jul 28 01:24:40 The living house is wood, but the buildings outside are brick or concrete or more wood Jul 28 01:24:54 wait, how far away from home You want wifi to exist? Jul 28 01:25:16 Estel_, no that's wrong question, I want connectivity to exist seamlessly everywhere Jul 28 01:25:41 qwazix, again, I think that there is already daemon used by shortcutd thing, for power-save savvy polling of proxim Jul 28 01:25:43 DocAvalanche, thanks I'm still trying to fit all these new concepts around my head Jul 28 01:26:01 ShadowJK, inside those concrete or brick buildings too? Jul 28 01:26:35 asking seriously, no irony Jul 28 01:26:48 I though You want to have reliable wifi in wooden house, and it's garden Jul 28 01:27:13 which IMO and from my experience, is easily possiuble with single used wrt54GL with openWRT on board, and DIY antennas Jul 28 01:27:18 even more than that Jul 28 01:27:25 With N800, N810 and N900 currently running openvpn, it doesn't matter if I'm at home inside, or outside checking up on the potatos, being shaded from wifi by hte concrete barn, or 100km away on a shopping trip, openvpn makes it all seamless across wifis and cellular Jul 28 01:27:37 of course, if You have special needs like wifi in some bujildings outside, more aps may be necessary Jul 28 01:27:50 yea Jul 28 01:27:54 as for cellular, it's true Jul 28 01:27:58 kinda conveinent Jul 28 01:28:32 well, I think everyone have own usage pattern, and N900 is wonderful to allow so much flexibility Jul 28 01:28:37 well, it's real mobile computer, after all Jul 28 01:28:48 this more RAM would make us all happy :) Jul 28 01:29:12 My home lan has 3 different paths to internet, there's an openvpn server on the lan that automatically picks another connection if the current internet connection isn't working :-) Jul 28 01:29:27 failsafe solution, neat Jul 28 01:29:55 I hope You know that I wasn't trying to insist You change Your net layout ;) i'm just "wifi freak" doing this strange things like wifi link over harbour or whatever Jul 28 01:30:10 speeds are 100M, 2M, 5k :-) Jul 28 01:30:13 using chinese dishesh etc Jul 28 01:30:54 Estel_, seems that shortcutd uses dbus, I didn't know there was a dbus interface for proximity sensor Jul 28 01:31:08 Usually when I get home everything is running on the 5k which has superior reliability Jul 28 01:31:10 that's why I've suggested it :) Jul 28 01:31:26 it isn't switching back to faster one, when available? Jul 28 01:31:29 or I'm just dizzy from all the info Doc gave me and it's 5AM Jul 28 01:31:57 qwazix, benefit of shortcutd is that it's already ready, available in repos and written ;) Jul 28 01:32:03 Other things, Yolu would need to create from scratch, mostly Jul 28 01:32:43 ShadowJK, while we have You here, small unrelated question, if You don't mind. It's only me, or Pr 1.2 on N950 made charging white-led notification-less? Jul 28 01:32:46 That's what I tried to do, copy a written program, but it seems I chose the wrong one... Jul 28 01:32:54 i.e. before update,. while charging with screen of, it was breathing, like N900 Jul 28 01:32:56 now it isn't Jul 28 01:33:16 qwazix, for shortcutd, you don't even need to copy it Jul 28 01:33:19 it consist of two packages Jul 28 01:33:24 daemon, and shortcutd we all use Jul 28 01:33:29 the latter depends on the former Jul 28 01:33:37 but the former can be polled by any othyer program Jul 28 01:33:39 aha, so I could just depend on it Jul 28 01:33:45 yea and use it's functions Jul 28 01:33:56 so that's why it uses dbus Jul 28 01:33:58 um Jul 28 01:34:00 tfor sure they're documented on garage, or inside daemon prompt itself, or... Jul 28 01:34:12 it just communicates with the daemon Jul 28 01:34:24 shadeslayer, it fuckin irritates me, as I never know if N950 is charged or not, without unclocking it Jul 28 01:34:27 I was checking source of the latter Jul 28 01:34:32 yea :) Jul 28 01:34:39 now our council could jump in and say "waaaaait! does our kernel even support /sys/class/gpio ?", check that, and possibly pester pali to include it to next KP if missing Jul 28 01:35:02 suuuure Jul 28 01:35:21 don't you know that Council is made for "higher" and "bigger" things? ;) Jul 28 01:36:12 or at least that is how I will remember them, unfortunately, but it's unrelated topic which I don't want to go into Jul 28 01:36:26 Estel_, as far as I'm concerned, N950 does not exist for normal people, and the fact that you are asking questions about it implies that you have one, which makes me extremely jelous. Go away with your N950 and your other extremely fortunate and extremely rich buddies into #harmattan or something? Jul 28 01:36:39 t900:/sys/class# ls -l gpio/ Jul 28 01:36:41 --w------- 1 root root 4096 Jul 28 03:44 export Jul 28 01:36:42 drwxr-xr-x 3 root root 0 Jul 28 03:44 gpiochip0 Jul 28 01:36:43 ShadowJK, sorry, I was sure You have one too? Jul 28 01:36:44 drwxr-xr-x 3 root root 0 Jul 28 03:44 gpiochip128 Jul 28 01:36:45 ... Jul 28 01:37:33 t900:/sys/class# uname -a Jul 28 01:37:34 Linux t900 2.6.28.10power46 #1 PREEMPT Sun Dec 12 03:11:24 EET 2010 armv7l unknown Jul 28 01:37:35 ShadowJK, don't be jealous, it's ncie device at one side, but leaves You with sad feeling or wasted potential and idiotic design decisions in other side Jul 28 01:37:38 Estel_, I'm not part of the millionaire's club, sorry. I apologize if my humble appearance is similar to someone else you saw on the exclusive VIP club luxury sailing boat yacht meet. Jul 28 01:37:40 BTW, DocScrutinizer also have one :P Jul 28 01:37:51 sure ;) Jul 28 01:37:57 Why haven't You submitted for CA? Jul 28 01:38:03 you would get one in instant Jul 28 01:38:10 breath Jul 28 01:38:50 Estel_, DocAvalanche, proximityd of shortcutd also polls the proximity sensor, about the same that I'm doing Jul 28 01:39:02 as for millionaire's club, You're just joking around, or You share my feeling, that after some years it will be quite expensive collector's device? Jul 28 01:39:07 so we can safely assume that it doesn't suck up too much battery ;) Jul 28 01:39:31 qwazix, but with proximityd You don't have two things polling it, if someone is using shortcutd Jul 28 01:39:39 and already written and tested solution Jul 28 01:39:46 but yes, it shouldn't Jul 28 01:39:57 qwazix: polling (as in reading on a time pace) *always* sucks Jul 28 01:39:59 still, I think modularity is great thing, and if we have daemon for that in repos, we should use it Jul 28 01:40:07 both battery and in general Jul 28 01:40:11 DocAvalanche, in practice it's neglible Jul 28 01:40:15 and in reaction time Jul 28 01:40:41 bbut if better solution exist, it could be used for updating proximityd to use better method ;) Jul 28 01:40:42 Estel_: depends on polling frequency Jul 28 01:40:48 DocAvalanche, sure Jul 28 01:41:16 qwazix, another advantage of using proximityd is that You could have co-existing usage of proximity sensor when phone is unlocked, for shortcutd, and for Your timenow when it's locked Jul 28 01:41:22 otherwise, you have conflicts Jul 28 01:41:38 and, of course, when someone use both, 2 things will poll same sensor unnecessary Jul 28 01:41:43 Estel_, agreed, and it seems that proximityd also does some cleverer polling by adjusting the frequency Jul 28 01:41:44 sucking 2x power Jul 28 01:41:51 * Estel_ nods Jul 28 01:42:03 OUCH Jul 28 01:42:37 ShadowJK, but seriously, whyt haven't you applied for CA, you would get N950 without questions asked, I suppose Jul 28 01:42:42 qwazix: will proximityd read my mind to know when to ramp up polling frequency? ;-) Jul 28 01:42:50 DocAvalanche, sure Jul 28 01:42:54 wtf is CA? Jul 28 01:43:05 ShadowJK, what WAS CA Jul 28 01:43:08 was* Jul 28 01:43:13 it was Community Awards Jul 28 01:43:19 ShadowJK: that 'awards' madness Jul 28 01:43:40 25 devices from Nokia, including 10 N950 and 15 N9, that were meant to be awarded NOT for developers only, but for community Contributors Jul 28 01:43:58 with 3 week's time for sending applications, and anothyer week for Council to debate about winners Jul 28 01:43:58 I'd seriously hope there'd be 25 more qualified than myself Jul 28 01:44:08 freemangordon, Pali, and such guys got it, for example Jul 28 01:44:16 ShadowJK: hardly Jul 28 01:44:19 ShadowJK, you wouldn't belive some people that submitted Jul 28 01:44:24 and I agree with DocAvalanche Jul 28 01:44:43 sure, merlin1991, freemangordon, Pali, etc are very active and would be higher than You, but You would still get one without problems Jul 28 01:44:53 It would be a clever tactic from elop anyway, offering harmattan devices to fremantle people? Fragment it further? Jul 28 01:44:53 trust me on that (tm) I was part of jury ;)9 Jul 28 01:44:57 DocAvalanche, no I just suppose, the application using it can request polling frequency by usage case, didn't read all of the code, I just saw some frequency adjusting code. For example when device is unlocked timenow doesn't need to poll the sensor Jul 28 01:45:02 ShadowJK, this time, no Jul 28 01:45:13 ShadowJK: all your stuff is top notch, regarding contributions to community asset Jul 28 01:45:20 rather it was Qgil who liked to forward devices to0 community instead of trash bin Jul 28 01:45:40 I would've applied if they'd offered N900s Jul 28 01:45:50 ShadowJK, BTw, people that are doing most work for fremantle, especially increased lately, also received devices Jul 28 01:45:58 they don't think about switching to harmattan Jul 28 01:46:22 qwazix: fair enough, almost as stupid as QTM sensors then Jul 28 01:46:24 alternatively, despite 100 devices (25 was jsut for Ca, other 75 devices were handled for "developers"), #harmattan channel is rather filled with rats shit Jul 28 01:46:32 like ZogG's writing Jul 28 01:47:03 Ad hominem. Jul 28 01:47:07 not something like conversations on Maemo. today I had 831 lines to read, all of them discussion between freemangordon, Pali, merlin1991, etc, about actual things they write for Maemo Jul 28 01:47:07 Last warning. Jul 28 01:47:15 GeneralAntilles, had no idea you're around ;p Jul 28 01:47:19 forgive me Jul 28 01:47:39 Keep things positive. :) Jul 28 01:47:43 GeneralAntilles, I'm sorry I promise I wont do it again? Jul 28 01:47:50 haha Jul 28 01:48:11 GeneralAntilles and me are *always* around Jul 28 01:48:11 ShadowJK, yeah, yeah. :P Jul 28 01:48:14 Ok, #harmattan channel is filled with flower scent, where we're on industrially productive mood here on #maemo Jul 28 01:48:18 Estel_, did you have a N810 before N900 Jul 28 01:48:37 Estel_, please don't laugh at man being opressed by the authority :-( Jul 28 01:48:41 nope. If one day i'll be a "millionare club" like in ShadowJK jokes, I wil lbuy one for collection Jul 28 01:48:58 Some watery tart threw me a sword. Jul 28 01:49:01 So, nyaaaaaaa Jul 28 01:49:21 * ShadowJK sighs Jul 28 01:49:21 qwazix, why asking? Jul 28 01:49:36 I just got one, and I realized that if I had one when the N900 got out I would be totally pissed with the direction fremantle went Jul 28 01:49:54 qwazix, having mobile network and phone funcionality doesn't hurt ;) Jul 28 01:50:05 while lack of camera lens cover, microSd slot, and capacitive screen does :( Jul 28 01:50:14 sure, 810 had better kickstand, but it is fixable Jul 28 01:50:16 That's why I didn't get one when it was fresh Jul 28 01:50:21 if only via replacement body project Jul 28 01:50:27 But the screen seems huge compared to the N900, Jul 28 01:50:33 You won't add missing microSd slot or replace digitizer, though :( on N950/N9 Jul 28 01:50:48 qwazix, yea, but resolution is same Jul 28 01:51:05 the applications available were pc-grade while on the N900 for the first six months we couldnt open a zip file Jul 28 01:51:09 but it's true, that many people felt this way then Jul 28 01:51:13 qwazix: in very old chanlogs you can read me ranting about fremantle GUI's retardedness compared to diablo Jul 28 01:51:35 still, I'm afraid N9/50 flaws are more serious and less possible to fix Jul 28 01:51:49 res is the same, but the huge thumbable buttons eat a great deal of the real estate Jul 28 01:51:49 I though open kernel kilols aegis... Jul 28 01:52:07 and the digitizer is much more sensitive Jul 28 01:52:09 yet, yesterday, MohammadAG told me that they can't drop-in things from Pr 1.3 to N950, because of aegis and file itnegrity checks Jul 28 01:52:39 harmattan sounds like fckd in head unfixable (I hope it isn't ad hominem:P ) Jul 28 01:52:59 It's like I have a laptop in my pocket. Anyway, today the N810 is almost useless due to lack of RAM, it bogs down even on tmo, not to mention heavy websites Jul 28 01:53:03 it would be no problem if Mer hardware adaptation for N950 and N9 would be finished, but it isn't and probably never will Jul 28 01:53:08 YEAAAAH! thunder! \o/ Jul 28 01:53:19 ~weather eddn Jul 28 01:53:29 Nuernberg, Germany; (EDDN) 49-30N 011-03E 318M; last updated: 2012.07.28 0120 UTC; Dew Point: 60 F (16 C); Pressure (altimeter): 29.80 in. Hg (1009 hPa); Relative Humidity: 60%; Sky conditions: mostly cloudy; Visibility: greater than 7 mile(s); Weather: 75 F (24 C); Wind: from the N (010 degrees) at 10 MPH (9 KT) (direction variable) Jul 28 01:53:39 Riders of the Storm Jul 28 01:54:20 DocAvalanche, you hate change just as much as me, don't you? :P Jul 28 01:54:21 yet today Fremantle is all a geek would need, so I don't give up hopes on harmattan yet Jul 28 01:54:24 qwazix, before I make the same mistake again - you own N950 or N9? Jul 28 01:54:30 both Jul 28 01:55:19 god bless You. you know, for someone jumping few days ago, N950 landing page on wiki have only few details... Could You Pm me, on TMo, in free moment, links to essential threads (about essential things) for Harm? Jul 28 01:55:36 USB host mode for example was deemed unfixable for the N900, it was stated so many times that it was impossible that when I saw announce thread I was sure it was a hoax Jul 28 01:55:41 searching for it on TMO, for someone who haven't followed harmatytan thing sicne last few days, iks kinda... Jul 28 01:55:48 I would liek to bring N950 to some usable stage Jul 28 01:56:13 Kinda crazy week, I have to install thumb on N900, play with N950, and play with two raspberry Pi's lying on my desk Jul 28 01:56:22 There's still, afaik, no comprehensive page available that tells you how to fix the N9 braindamage Jul 28 01:56:30 ShadowJK, exactly Jul 28 01:56:34 Main reasons why I've not bought one. Jul 28 01:56:46 Anybody else pitch in on the MetaWatch kickstarter? Jul 28 01:56:53 qwazix is quite fluent in TMO, that's why I asked him for lsit of most improtant topics, that he for sure have subscribed :P Jul 28 01:56:55 Estel_, will do, probably set up a wiki page. But now it's too late. Tomorrow if I find some time Jul 28 01:56:56 http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/metawatch/metawatch-strata-the-smartwatch-for-the-iphone-4s Jul 28 01:57:12 GeneralAntilles: indeed (hate change) Jul 28 01:57:13 qwazix, sure, thanks a lot Jul 28 01:57:18 And instead ordered an android tablet as a first step to figure out how to migrate and make the android environment usable and interoperable Jul 28 01:57:20 Fuck change!!! Jul 28 01:57:25 just ping me with it when you will have time and do it, ok? so I won't miss it Jul 28 01:57:46 ShadowJK, making android usable is even more PITa than with harmattan Jul 28 01:57:51 ShadowJK, on the other hand I do think that android is unfixable Jul 28 01:57:52 better stick to N900 ;) Jul 28 01:57:59 * ShadowJK has a few N900 halflifes of time to figure it out Jul 28 01:58:14 ShadowJK, mission impossible Jul 28 01:58:20 android is jsut brainfucked in head even more Jul 28 01:58:34 You could expect jolla and Mer sooner ;) Jul 28 01:58:42 Yeah :) Jul 28 01:58:51 Or a X emulator on android Jul 28 01:58:56 Android has too much of windows philosophy. Jul 28 01:58:58 where X is anything that can run linux Jul 28 01:59:11 ShadowJK, emulator? Thats why you need those 3254623656432 cores on tablet? Jul 28 01:59:22 sure Jul 28 01:59:30 I though just to allow them spying on You and encrypting content on the fly, + shedule it with legit traffic Jul 28 01:59:36 half of them to run javascript Jul 28 01:59:39 ;) Jul 28 01:59:43 android is unlinuxized linux Jul 28 01:59:46 also Jul 28 01:59:53 well, windows mobile is also based on linux, after all Jul 28 01:59:59 why not android Jul 28 02:00:07 Problem is obviously that there's no maemo tablet Jul 28 02:00:14 I think that android can't handle multicore properly Jul 28 02:00:17 windows mobile based on linux?? Jul 28 02:00:21 Not anything newer than 2008 anyway Jul 28 02:00:29 [04:00:15] well, windows mobile is also based on linux, after all Jul 28 02:00:31 ? Jul 28 02:00:53 that doesn't make sense Jul 28 02:01:05 don't know about current versions, but 6 had more common with linux than windows on desktop, of course, being idiotically closed Jul 28 02:01:13 Pitchforks and GPL at hand and to the microsoft offices Jul 28 02:01:17 I'm reffering to Android "openess" philosophy Jul 28 02:01:26 qwazix, haha Jul 28 02:01:44 by the way some guys here attacked the MS offices with stones and molotovs... Jul 28 02:01:46 well, Android is as Open as google doesn't do evil Jul 28 02:01:55 ... Jul 28 02:02:01 qwazix, they didn't liekd leaked windows 8 betas?>;) Jul 28 02:02:12 liked* Jul 28 02:02:17 but seriously, why so? Jul 28 02:02:33 hahaha... don't know really? activists of a kind? Jul 28 02:02:37 google abandoned the "do no evil" policy like half a decade ago? Jul 28 02:02:47 kinda bitchy way of activity, to attack low-rank microsoft workers Jul 28 02:02:48 s/?/ / Jul 28 02:02:51 qwazix meant: hahaha... don't know really activists of a kind? Jul 28 02:02:56 When they figured out that they could redefine evil Jul 28 02:03:01 ShadowJK, Android was also open source half decadce ago ;P Jul 28 02:03:11 lol Jul 28 02:03:41 but jokes aside - everyone is free to invest own money whenever want, but in case of lacking good devices Jul 28 02:03:47 I wouldn't support bad ones via my money Jul 28 02:04:00 I'm using what I like, no one will force me to me3ss with fckin android Jul 28 02:04:17 For me the choice seems to be between W7 and android Jul 28 02:04:18 heh Jul 28 02:04:22 if Jolla will provide, that's great. If not, well, IO have N900, and hope for community-driven hardware :) Jul 28 02:04:36 ShadowJK: fun choice Jul 28 02:04:38 ShadowJK, Vivaldi? Jul 28 02:04:43 do android Jul 28 02:04:44 What is vivaldi? Jul 28 02:04:51 it have to arrive some day :P Jul 28 02:04:54 wp7 is a living dead Jul 28 02:05:06 I did not say WP7, I said W7 Jul 28 02:05:11 oh Jul 28 02:05:15 misread Jul 28 02:05:31 http://opentablets.org/ Jul 28 02:05:36 ShadowJK, ^ Jul 28 02:05:56 Bye guys, I'm off to bed Jul 28 02:06:09 I have a W7 netbook. The performance is great. The display pisses me off. The touchpad pisses me off. The keyboard is great. Jul 28 02:06:26 the system doesn't piss You off?:P Jul 28 02:06:33 see ya qwazix Jul 28 02:06:51 it's down on my list of things Jul 28 02:07:04 goldelico will (probably) produce a 7" or larger version of GTA04 Jul 28 02:07:05 below screen and pointing device Jul 28 02:07:25 and also a device with OMAP4 is planned Jul 28 02:07:36 DocAvalanche, it will still cost moar $$$$$ for 256 Mb RAM? Jul 28 02:07:44 omap3 with 1gig ram would be sufficient Jul 28 02:08:05 ShadowJK, and what are your thoughts about vivaldi thing? Jul 28 02:08:08 in any formfactor >=3.5" :-) Jul 28 02:08:14 What is vivaldi? Jul 28 02:08:15 sure, capacitive screen sucks, but other than that... Jul 28 02:08:25 Mer and plasma active Jul 28 02:08:25 http://opentablets.org/ Jul 28 02:08:25 pasted it already ;) Jul 28 02:08:31 few lines above Jul 28 02:08:36 do you see links? Jul 28 02:08:42 or irc obscured them, somehow? Jul 28 02:08:53 not unusual Jul 28 02:09:00 it says internal storage is 8g instead of 4g Jul 28 02:09:03 for more info click this Jul 28 02:09:05 * ShadowJK clicks Jul 28 02:09:18 ShadowJK, screw that, it contains sd slot Jul 28 02:09:18 1Gb RAM Jul 28 02:09:19 and I get to "ideas to build content stores on" Jul 28 02:09:27 screw that too Jul 28 02:09:30 based on Mer Jul 28 02:09:34 with open UI as plasma active Jul 28 02:09:35 STORAGE?? 8 jig? dafaq Jul 28 02:09:37 and upstream kernel Jul 28 02:09:57 acceptable hardware specs Jul 28 02:10:08 storage is least olf concern with slot for full-sized sd cards Jul 28 02:10:12 DocAvalanche: more isn't needed Jul 28 02:10:18 DocAvalanche, does 7" mean they managed to find someone with a 3D printer or similar? or is it still caseless? Jul 28 02:10:47 there's already a 3D printed GTA02 case Jul 28 02:10:56 oh Jul 28 02:11:07 in white ;-D Jul 28 02:11:20 Last time I checked you needed a freerunner case Jul 28 02:11:20 translucent Jul 28 02:11:52 nope, you *can* get a complete device as well, afaik Jul 28 02:12:09 incl case and LCM Jul 28 02:12:32 hi ZogG_laptop Jul 28 02:13:15 Anyway, re W7, it's pretty amazing how my netbook with atom processor is more than enough in performance to run W7, but it's paired with such a shit screen that it makes me rage looking at it, and a touchpad that is not only small, but has no tactile feedback of where it starts and where it ends, and of course, no touch layer on the screen. Jul 28 02:13:52 w7 with atom...? Jul 28 02:14:02 If you want proper screen, proper pointing device (touchpad/touchlayer), all that's left are i5/i7 monsters that cost ludicrous amounts of money Jul 28 02:14:12 FIQ|n900, sure Jul 28 02:14:21 ShadowJK: epic fail in design, I'd say Jul 28 02:15:17 argh wasps.. Jul 28 02:15:46 ShadowJK: get a PanaTB CF-29 ;-D - comes even with kinda working touchscreen Jul 28 02:15:54 So if there had been a netbook available, with an IPS or better screen, a touchscreen and touchpad (for when you have to mess with precise crap) (as touchpad wouldn't be primary pointing device, I'd accept lack of tactile borders here), and same cpu/ram specs as existing notebooks, I'd been sold Jul 28 02:16:04 and ordered that instead of an android Jul 28 02:16:33 or get the CF-19 Jul 28 02:16:40 What's a CF-19? Jul 28 02:16:45 convertable, though a tad smaller Jul 28 02:16:58 than the CF-29 Jul 28 02:17:26 exactly size of a proper netbook Jul 28 02:17:28 What are those Jul 28 02:17:41 panasomic toughbook Jul 28 02:17:56 lol Jul 28 02:18:20 \topic #maemo Jul 28 02:18:26 uhh Jul 28 02:18:28 Yeah so my netbook cost me 300 for 10 hours battery life, dual core atom, 2 g ram, 10" SHIT screen Jul 28 02:18:49 tablet is 600 for quad+1 core cpu, 1 g ram, decent screen Jul 28 02:18:55 and android handicap Jul 28 02:19:03 panasonic toughbook is like 3k+? Jul 28 02:19:12 300 Jul 28 02:19:14 used Jul 28 02:19:19 good condition Jul 28 02:19:25 I might as well spend that on ebay N950 ;-) Jul 28 02:19:54 well, if you can find a N950 for 300 Jul 28 02:20:16 still the pana TB has a *hw* kbd Jul 28 02:21:16 http://compare.ebay.de/like/320924902974?var=lv<yp=AllFixedPriceItemTypes&var=sbar Jul 28 02:21:33 It's somewhat messed up that I prefer N900 for most surfing compared to netbook Jul 28 02:21:48 Because hte touchpad is such a crippling factor Jul 28 02:22:21 TB come with touch*screen* Jul 28 02:22:29 Probably if the netbook had same shit screen but with a touch layer, it'd be much more usable Jul 28 02:22:34 the touchpad is actually tiny crap Jul 28 02:22:52 or if it came with a not-shit touchpad Jul 28 02:23:12 Biggest issue is that it's seamlessly integrated into the case Jul 28 02:23:32 So you don't know where it begins and where it ends Jul 28 02:23:44 :-S Jul 28 02:24:15 * ShadowJK has been cursin and swearing while tapping harder and harder, only to realize he was tapping outside the touch area Jul 28 02:24:32 wut Jul 28 02:24:36 apply stickytape? Jul 28 02:24:46 what idiot came up with that design solution? Jul 28 02:30:01 I dunno, but I bet his/her title had "designer" in it Jul 28 02:30:51 tape idea is nice, I'll try that Jul 28 02:31:09 http://adiz0r.soup.io/post/193593866/Developers-designers-project-managers-QA-and-sysadmins Jul 28 02:32:25 the rightmost col is the best ;-D **** ENDING LOGGING AT Sat Jul 28 02:59:59 2012