**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Sat Aug 25 03:00:05 2012
Aug 25 05:36:23 <Psi> how well does android run on n900 now?
Aug 25 06:16:29 <Macer> LOL
Aug 25 06:16:37 <Macer> Psi: i thought it was "running" for a while
Aug 25 06:16:42 <Macer> if all the hardware works is another story
Aug 25 06:18:06 <Psi> yeah, last i looked it booted, but want usable
Aug 25 06:18:39 <Macer> hm
Aug 25 06:18:44 <Macer> last i tried it it was quite usable
Aug 25 06:18:54 <Macer> but then again who knows what the status on most n900 projects is nowadays
Aug 25 06:19:18 <Macer> i was going to buy an N9 this week but wound up buying some blu cigarettes instead
Aug 25 14:32:00 <djszapi_> Hi! Could someone please the output of this command on Fremantle? grep -rn glBindAttribLocation /usr/include/
Aug 25 14:38:34 <Sicelo> nothing returned, on mine
Aug 25 14:38:57 <djszapi_> Sicelo: hmm, do you have a /usr/include/GLES2 folder?
Aug 25 14:40:03 <djszapi_> iow, do you have the gles2 development package installed?
Aug 25 14:40:49 <djszapi_> Sicelo: sorry, I was unclear. I would need that in the fremantle development environment
Aug 25 14:40:57 <freemangordon> djszapi_: maybe the correct place to check is not on the device, but in SB
Aug 25 14:41:00 <freemangordon> yeah :D
Aug 25 14:41:15 <freemangordon> djszapi_: lemme check it
Aug 25 14:42:02 <freemangordon> /usr/include/SDL/SDL_opengl.h:3461:GLAPI void APIENTRY glBindAttribLocation (GLuint, GLuint, const GLchar *);
Aug 25 14:42:02 <freemangordon> /usr/include/SDL/SDL_opengl.h:4162:GLAPI void APIENTRY glBindAttribLocationARB (GLhandleARB, GLuint, const GLcharARB *);
Aug 25 14:42:16 <freemangordon> "/usr/include/GLES2/gl2.h:506:GL_APICALL void         GL_APIENTRY glBindAttribLocation (GLuint program, GLuint index, const char* name);"
Aug 25 14:42:47 <freemangordon> djszapi_: ^^^
Aug 25 14:42:51 <djszapi_> freemangordon: dpkg -S /usr/include/GLES2/gl2.h -> is this some sgx package?
Aug 25 14:43:13 <freemangordon> libgles2-sgx-img-dev
Aug 25 14:43:29 <freemangordon> djszapi_: ^^^
Aug 25 14:43:33 <djszapi_> k, thank you.
Aug 25 14:43:47 <djszapi_> that opengl es 2 implementation is not standard compliant apparently.
Aug 25 14:43:50 <djszapi_> just like on Harmattan
Aug 25 14:44:09 <djszapi_> you have used the maemo5 target in scratchbox, and not maemo6, right?
Aug 25 14:44:29 <freemangordon> yep, I only have fremantle target
Aug 25 14:44:47 <djszapi_> I see, k.
Aug 25 14:44:59 <djszapi_> I am about to get this standard incompliance worked around in Qt5.
Aug 25 14:45:12 <djszapi_> packaging Qt5 for Harmattan, and I was wondering, if we need to fix this for fremantle as well.
Aug 25 14:45:24 <djszapi_> or if it is just harmattan specific.
Aug 25 14:46:07 <djszapi_> do not suppose there is a channel for diablo? :-)
Aug 25 14:46:35 <freemangordon> NFC
Aug 25 14:46:49 <javispedro> this is the diablo channel
Aug 25 14:47:10 <djszapi_> freemangordon: do you have diable as well at hand?
Aug 25 14:47:21 <djszapi_> diablo, even
Aug 25 14:47:25 <freemangordon> djszapi_: no
Aug 25 14:47:33 <djszapi_> I mean diablo target in scratchbox
Aug 25 14:47:40 <freemangordon> yes, got it
Aug 25 14:48:02 <freemangordon> but as I told you I have only fremantle targets
Aug 25 14:48:08 <djszapi_> right
Aug 25 14:48:16 <javispedro> djszapi_: I have diablo targets and a n810
Aug 25 14:50:05 <djszapi_> javispedro: then I would ask the same from you as well
Aug 25 14:50:21 <djszapi_> 1) grep -rn glBindAttribLocation /usr/include/
Aug 25 14:50:39 <javispedro> djszapi_: are you aware that diablo has no OpenGL* of any kind by default?
Aug 25 14:50:41 <djszapi_> 2) dpkg -S /usr/include/GLES2/gl2.h -> is this an sgx package?
Aug 25 14:50:48 <djszapi_> nope
Aug 25 14:51:00 <javispedro> I do have OpenGL but this is because I was a participant  in the disastrous mbx driver project
Aug 25 14:51:29 <Sicelo> lol, disastrous :P
Aug 25 14:53:03 <javispedro> and glBindAttribLocation does not exist in GLES1 :(
Aug 25 14:53:08 <javispedro> (which is all the MBX supports)
Aug 25 14:53:13 <djszapi_> that is true
Aug 25 14:53:19 <djszapi_> it is a gles2 function.
Aug 25 14:53:38 <djszapi_> ok, so the bug will be fixed then in Qt5 for Harmattan and Fremantle only, great, thanks.
Aug 25 14:54:03 <freemangordon> djszapi_: wait, Qt 5 for Fremantle?
Aug 25 14:54:39 <freemangordon> where is that animal, care to gimme some link?
Aug 25 14:55:00 <djszapi_> freemangordon: we are about to fix an sgx opengl es 2 implementation issue in Qt5
Aug 25 14:55:03 <djszapi_> because we are nice ;)
Aug 25 14:55:17 <djszapi_> unfortunately those implementations will not get updated on these platforms.
Aug 25 14:55:22 <djszapi_> so we accepted to have a hack in qt for that
Aug 25 14:55:24 <javispedro> only one? =)
Aug 25 14:55:31 <djszapi_> it does not mean though qt5 comes to fremantle
Aug 25 14:55:38 <djszapi_> but it means I can finish the packaging for Harmattan
Aug 25 14:55:46 <djszapi_> they are nice*
Aug 25 14:55:50 <freemangordon> hehe
Aug 25 14:56:15 <djszapi_> if oyu guys feel like packaging qt5 for fremantle, go ahead
Aug 25 14:56:17 <djszapi_> you*
Aug 25 14:56:35 <djszapi_> there is apparently a way of injecting fremantle specific ifdefs into.
Aug 25 14:56:40 <djszapi_> which I was surprised about.
Aug 25 14:57:26 <freemangordon> well, the packaging should be the easy part, the problematic stuff will be to forward-port fremantle specific stuff (styles, etc)
Aug 25 14:58:47 <djszapi_> ah yeah
Aug 25 14:58:56 <djszapi_> luckily enough the qtquick2 branch got some work for meego (harmattan)
Aug 25 14:59:06 <djszapi_> it still needs some fixes, but I know what to do to get that running
Aug 25 14:59:10 <djszapi_> there are mainly two tasks.
Aug 25 14:59:30 <freemangordon> I don;t think that helps for fremantle
Aug 25 14:59:32 <djszapi_> but afterwords, should be possible to play with qt5 scenegraph, qml2 and so forth on harmattan out of the box from the community repository.
Aug 25 14:59:37 <djszapi_> that does not help
Aug 25 14:59:52 <djszapi_> qt-components does not work with fremantle
Aug 25 14:59:59 <djszapi_> there was some work from Kate (?), but unsure how far she went with that.
Aug 25 15:01:05 <DocScrutinizer05> hell, rougue ECHAN, zhought I'm in #harmattan
Aug 25 15:51:33 <fomg-optimize> Hi! I'm curious about Nokias Meltemi project, does anyone know where I can read about it? Was anything ever published? I know this is probably the wrong place to ask, but hey. Got to start somewhere :). Thank you in advance!
Aug 25 15:51:55 <DocScrutinizer05> http://www.engadget.com/2012/06/14/nokia-reportedly-scraps-meltemi/
Aug 25 15:52:00 <NIN101> it's dead.
Aug 25 15:52:01 <pronto> if anyone wants the blackhat2012usa/defcon20 videos, PM me 
Aug 25 15:53:03 <DocScrutinizer05> o/ NIN101
Aug 25 15:53:17 <fomg-optimize> THank you, but is anything else known about it other than what was published in engadget?
Aug 25 15:53:52 <DocScrutinizer05> well, a lot of rumour what it might have become if it wasn't dead
Aug 25 15:54:13 <DocScrutinizer05> allegedly some stripped down harmattan/maemo
Aug 25 15:54:48 <DocScrutinizer05> but since it's dead anyway, and no source or details ever got published afaik, who cares
Aug 25 15:55:22 <fomg-optimize> Aha, all right, my hope was that some source was publish :)
Aug 25 15:58:02 <Macer> lol
Aug 25 15:58:16 <Macer> "Nokia scraps being a viable business"
Aug 25 15:58:46 <fomg-optimize> I am not certain nokia as an entity chose that
Aug 25 15:59:00 <fomg-optimize> Some say certain people high up is responisble ;)
Aug 25 15:59:41 <fomg-optimize> THank you for your answers still :)
Aug 25 15:59:44 <Macer> it's always easiest to blame elop ;)
Aug 25 15:59:54 <Macer> e-flop
Aug 25 16:00:00 <fomg-optimize> Hush, dont use that name
Aug 25 16:00:05 <Macer> how he is still CEO is beyond me
Aug 25 16:00:07 <fomg-optimize> There will be flamefest
Aug 25 16:00:18 <Macer> heh
Aug 25 16:00:24 <Macer> although... i like my lumia 900 ;)
Aug 25 16:00:32 <Macer> so there is something to be said there at least
Aug 25 16:00:58 <kerio> but... not maemo ._.
Aug 25 16:01:00 <fomg-optimize> How is it good?  Would love to hear something from that side for once
Aug 25 16:01:01 <DocScrutinizer05> blasphemy
Aug 25 16:01:15 <Macer> but then again.... that is similar to saying "I like android" since the OS is on multiple manufacturer platforms
Aug 25 16:01:36 <Macer> it's not nokia specific.. minus the fact that the cam in it might be of a higher quality than other wp7 phones
Aug 25 16:01:59 <Macer> kerio: maemo "was" awesome ;)
Aug 25 16:02:12 <DocScrutinizer05> I'd rather use a startac than any winP7 phone
Aug 25 16:02:14 <Macer> probably the last of a true linux mobile distro anybody would say
Aug 25 16:02:31 <Macer> DocScrutinizer05: it's a Microsoft iPhone if you ask me
Aug 25 16:02:44 <Macer> almost works exactly the same except it uses tiles instead of icons pretty much heh
Aug 25 16:03:04 <Macer> believe it or not the IE in wp7 is probably one of the best browsers i have used on a smaller platform
Aug 25 16:03:20 <DocScrutinizer05> and except it uses a windows BS OS rather than anything faintly *nixoid
Aug 25 16:03:29 <Macer> the music area is based on the zune player.. which didn't sell that well but still had a good interface
Aug 25 16:03:46 <Macer> *nixdroid haha
Aug 25 16:04:06 <Macer> DocScrutinizer05: i'm just saying from an end user cattle perspective.. it is actually... nice 
Aug 25 16:04:16 <DocScrutinizer05> pfff
Aug 25 16:04:22 <Macer> it does everything i need it to do ... like.. ssh and gtalk. :) 
Aug 25 16:04:39 <fomg-optimize> Macer thank you for the neutral feedback :)
Aug 25 16:04:42 <Macer> although ssh doesn't run in the background like an iphone they are incredibly restrictive on running background apps
Aug 25 16:04:55 <DocScrutinizer05> from an end user perspective: real hooker >> hooker800 >> any_wincrap
Aug 25 16:05:04 <kerio> ssh doesn't run in background
Aug 25 16:05:07 <kerio> no ssh tunnels
Aug 25 16:05:07 <fomg-optimize> What makes IE better browser than the other ones then?
Aug 25 16:05:10 <kerio> no irc for me
Aug 25 16:05:14 <kerio> fucking useless
Aug 25 16:05:15 <Macer> kerio: yeah. no tunnels too :-/
Aug 25 16:05:23 <Macer> kerio: but i just have screen auto start on my box 
Aug 25 16:05:28 <Macer> problem solved ;) 
Aug 25 16:05:34 <fomg-optimize> Seen from "cattle" perspective
Aug 25 16:05:37 <Macer> but the lack of tunnels would be a problem :-/
Aug 25 16:06:00 <Macer> fomg-optimize: well.. i'm just talking about a typical user who downloads stuff like the app that changes their voice to a gnome and think it's awesome ;)
Aug 25 16:06:31 <Macer> but as far as a user who needs more would go.. the browser works fine.. ssh works... and im+ can be used for any IM stuff
Aug 25 16:06:42 <Macer> that's all i really need a phone for :) 
Aug 25 16:07:03 <Macer> and it has built in wifi tethering over the att lte network ... so they thought of that at least as well
Aug 25 16:07:15 <DocScrutinizer05> you better get a MDA
Aug 25 16:07:30 <DocScrutinizer05> ~dict phone
Aug 25 16:07:32 <infobot> Dictionary 'phone' (1 of 7): \Phone\, n. [Colloq. for {Telephone}.] 1. An instrument that converts sound into signals that can be transmitted over distances and then converts received signals back into sounds; a telephone; as, I talked to him on the phone. Syn: telephone, telephone set. [WordNet 1.5] 2. (Phonetics) An individual sound unit of speech without concern as to whether or not it is a phoneme of some language. A speech sound. Syn: speech ...
Aug 25 16:07:46 <Macer> :-P
Aug 25 16:07:53 <Macer> tomatoes tomatoes
Aug 25 16:08:12 <Macer> i guess that idiom doesn't work well on irc :)
Aug 25 16:08:40 <Macer> that being said... maemo was a far superior os for the power user :)
Aug 25 16:08:44 <fomg-optimize> Hmmmmm
Aug 25 16:08:59 <Macer> i am still considering getting an N9 
Aug 25 16:09:05 <fomg-optimize> Still seems a tad over priced fo those features, and those feeatures alone?
Aug 25 16:09:09 <Macer> since that's the last one that will have a real linux type of os on it
Aug 25 16:09:20 <DocScrutinizer05> I admit I 75% use my N900 as a mobile PC with permanent(!) connectivity to internet
Aug 25 16:09:23 <Macer> fomg-optimize: well i caught it on a promotion
Aug 25 16:09:26 <fomg-optimize> N950 if you shit gold?
Aug 25 16:09:34 <fomg-optimize> Or have contacts :)
Aug 25 16:09:35 <javispedro> the N950 is garbage
Aug 25 16:09:38 <DocScrutinizer05> but the remaining 25% are mere phone usage
Aug 25 16:09:41 <Macer> fomg-optimize: or are on the council
Aug 25 16:09:43 * Macer hides
Aug 25 16:10:09 <fomg-optimize> javispedro oh, more than I know, why?
Aug 25 16:10:10 <Macer> DocScrutinizer05: if talking on a phone is what you consider phone usage
Aug 25 16:10:11 <DocScrutinizer05> javispedro: sssshhh! I wanna sell it for some k$ ;-)
Aug 25 16:10:12 <Macer> then i'm around 5% ;)
Aug 25 16:10:31 <Macer> javispedro: i thought the n950 was just an n9 with a qwerty
Aug 25 16:10:36 <Macer> maybe a little less strong
Aug 25 16:11:14 <javispedro> it is scratch happy, has way too much different hw from n9 to be useful, the keyboard sucks (both arrangement and sw)
Aug 25 16:11:29 <Macer> i think i have gotten to the point that if i want to use linux on the go... i'll just bust out my transformer and ssh to my box at home over the wifi tether
Aug 25 16:11:32 <Macer> heh
Aug 25 16:11:47 <javispedro> the screen dies on you randomly, the hinge looks fragile, 
Aug 25 16:11:55 <Macer> javispedro: they should have just taken the n900 and shoved a faster cpu/more ram in huh?
Aug 25 16:12:06 <javispedro> the firmware is hardly upgraded and always different from n9,
Aug 25 16:12:07 <Macer> and fixed the usb port heh
Aug 25 16:12:11 <javispedro> etc. etc.
Aug 25 16:12:13 <DocScrutinizer05> Macer: N950 is an N9 with a rather poorly built hw kb, a flimsy "slide" mechanism, an LCD that's not really supported by the basic design principles of OS, and at large an OS that's not made for the hw
Aug 25 16:12:13 <javispedro> ah
Aug 25 16:12:24 <javispedro> and virtually nil phone reception and very bad wlan signal quality
Aug 25 16:12:31 <DocScrutinizer05> Macer: plus you get no spare parts
Aug 25 16:12:42 <Macer> DocScrutinizer05: yeah that has to suck
Aug 25 16:12:47 <Macer> the spare parts part
Aug 25 16:12:58 <Macer> if it breaks you'd wind up paying like $500 on ebay for a screen?
Aug 25 16:13:23 <Macer> i was still considering an N9 
Aug 25 16:13:25 <Sicelo> oh my .. the people who've spend $$ buying N950s .. i wonder if they considered the spares issue
Aug 25 16:13:28 <Macer> if the price drops a bit more i might just get it
Aug 25 16:13:43 <Macer> is nokia even producing them anymore?
Aug 25 16:13:57 <Macer> N9s?
Aug 25 16:14:15 <javispedro> I think they are still producing the 16GiB model
Aug 25 16:14:23 <javispedro> but I have my doubts about 64GiB models
Aug 25 16:14:23 <DocScrutinizer05> Macer: you hardly find *any* spare part for N950
Aug 25 16:14:32 <DocScrutinizer05> no matter how much you're willing to pay
Aug 25 16:14:42 <Macer> DocScrutinizer05: did you see modified sliding iphone bt keyboard for the n9?
Aug 25 16:14:57 <DocScrutinizer05> seen some of those concepts
Aug 25 16:14:59 <Macer> lol. that's ghetto but if they can make a kit
Aug 25 16:15:04 <Macer> i'd buy one and get an n9 ;)
Aug 25 16:15:07 <DocScrutinizer05> none ever really got me amazed
Aug 25 16:15:12 <teotwaki__> I think I'm just going to go for a galaxy note or note 2, when it comes out, to be honest
Aug 25 16:15:25 <Macer> teotwaki__: be careful. apple may sue
Aug 25 16:15:44 <teotwaki__> yeah, as if that would change from the fantastic support I always got from Nokia.
Aug 25 16:15:55 <teotwaki__> "Hey, here's a fantastic device. CANCELED! HAHA"
Aug 25 16:16:00 <Macer> LOL!!
Aug 25 16:16:26 <Macer> actually... they usually wait about 5 months after they release it to cancel it ;)
Aug 25 16:16:45 <beford> and its gone!
Aug 25 16:16:47 <Macer> as i learned with the nxxx series
Aug 25 16:17:06 <Macer> although n8x0 probably had the longest run until abandoned
Aug 25 16:17:09 <teotwaki__> I just got back home, I was stuck in wedding-traffic, but laughing so loud
Aug 25 16:17:38 <teotwaki__> cars honking their horns all over (I'm on a motorbike, so could weasel through), celebrating some stupid union, whatever.
Aug 25 16:17:40 <DocScrutinizer05> wedding-traffic! now that's new
Aug 25 16:17:45 <teotwaki__> Is it?
Aug 25 16:17:56 <Macer> DocScrutinizer05: not really
Aug 25 16:17:56 <DocScrutinizer05> never heard or noticed
Aug 25 16:17:57 <teotwaki__> When you have a hundred cars following the groom's car?
Aug 25 16:18:00 <Macer> ever see funeral traffic? :)
Aug 25 16:18:05 <teotwaki__> Anyway
Aug 25 16:18:23 <teotwaki__> I'm passing everyone, as they're stuck, until I reach the groom's car
Aug 25 16:18:44 <teotwaki__> A nice cabrio old mercedes, very nice condition
Aug 25 16:18:45 <fomg-optimize> Thank you all for your answers by the way :)
Aug 25 16:18:52 <Macer> fomg-optimize: np
Aug 25 16:18:54 <DocScrutinizer05> only real impact on traffic in our *towns* here in Germany is when some football national team won a game
Aug 25 16:18:55 <Macer> i'm going to the store
Aug 25 16:19:04 <teotwaki__> Problem is, there's roughly 120kph of wind at the moment
Aug 25 16:19:04 <Macer> damn i shoul dhave done this during the week. it is a zoo on the weekends
Aug 25 16:19:15 <teotwaki__> The bride's hair and dress were all over the place
Aug 25 16:22:30 <javispedro> I am actually kind of happy with the results of the apple vs samsung "thing"
Aug 25 16:23:40 <javispedro> ever since the iphone the usability has freefalled
Aug 25 16:23:54 <javispedro> so here's for future devices _avoiding_ everything that remotely looks iphoneish!!
Aug 25 16:27:39 <fomg-optimize> Ghasp, you mean actual creatiity rather than copying, are you MAD?!
Aug 25 16:28:17 <fomg-optimize> *gasp
Aug 25 16:32:07 <TomaszD> Hi 
Aug 25 16:32:50 <TomaszD> I'm looking for Thomas Perl or Andrew Flegg
Aug 25 16:33:52 <javispedro> thp Jaffa
Aug 25 16:34:16 <TomaszD> thanks
Aug 25 16:34:26 <TomaszD> Jaffa, are you around?
Aug 25 16:36:12 <TomaszD> I'm basically looking for someone who has the LEGACY FIASCO image for HWID2001 
Aug 25 16:36:25 <TomaszD> PR1.2 preferrably
Aug 25 16:36:44 <TomaszD> I've stupidly lost it, I only have the PR1.1 image
Aug 25 16:37:35 <Sicelo> 7/win 20
Aug 25 16:40:19 <DocScrutinizer05> javispedro: indeed
Aug 25 16:41:39 <DocScrutinizer05> maybe phone builders now recall there's more than capacitive multitouch, and stop trying to mimic cryPhone
Aug 25 16:43:16 <Estel_> especially considering todays verdict in stupid US
Aug 25 16:43:36 <Estel_> akka samsung -> pay xxxxxxxxxxxxx ammount of money to appleshit
Aug 25 16:43:50 <javispedro> see my above comment
Aug 25 16:43:53 <DocScrutinizer05> Apple has an awesome R&D department and policy (let 5 teams develop same thing, after N months, see what are the results and possibly start over all new again), other manufacturers just copying what Apple developed for concepts is an "evolutionary" dead-end
Aug 25 16:43:58 <Estel_> because apple have patented triangles and squares
Aug 25 16:44:32 <Estel_> DocScrutinizer05, but seriously, i like "flip-slide" screen of N950
Aug 25 16:44:43 <Estel_> screen changing angle is very comfortable thing ;)
Aug 25 16:44:48 <javispedro> waaaah
Aug 25 16:44:49 <javispedro> I hate it
Aug 25 16:44:51 <Estel_> Admit that I like n900 keyboard much more
Aug 25 16:45:00 <Estel_> and reception of wifi and cellular is... well
Aug 25 16:45:07 <Estel_> javispedro summed it up :P
Aug 25 16:45:21 <Estel_> bbright side - N950 also have hirose u.fl ports on motherboard for external antennas
Aug 25 16:45:29 <Estel_> just like N900
Aug 25 16:45:55 <Estel_> in fact I can't remember it wrong way,a s I've disassembled it some time ago, but I remember one hirose more?...
Aug 25 16:46:07 <Estel_> and people buying in on ebay are not casual users, just collectors
Aug 25 16:46:25 <Estel_> half of them put it into gablote, probably
Aug 25 16:46:38 <Estel_> javispedro, why hating i9t, out of curiosity?
Aug 25 16:46:42 <Estel_> flip screen?
Aug 25 16:46:59 <javispedro> i9t?
Aug 25 16:47:07 <Estel_> don't be picky on typos ;)
Aug 25 16:47:13 <javispedro> ah, it
Aug 25 16:47:21 <javispedro> I actually thought it was an acronym
Aug 25 16:47:26 * Estel_ nods
Aug 25 16:47:26 <javispedro> reads like one =)
Aug 25 16:47:29 <Estel_> fact :P
Aug 25 16:47:41 <fomg-optimize> DocScrutinizer05do you have info where to read about their R&D, what you wrote got my attention to read mora bout it
Aug 25 16:48:13 <Estel_> thinking about it, N900 way of sliding is 10000% faster for everyday use, and more robust...
Aug 25 16:48:23 <javispedro> Estel_: well it actually puts the screen at an oblique angle respect my eyes
Aug 25 16:48:25 <DocScrutinizer05> fomg-optimize: there's been an article about it, sth "why apple can innovate and others can't"
Aug 25 16:48:28 <Estel_> but lack of need for kickstand on N950 is also a benefit
Aug 25 16:48:33 <Estel_> javispedro, I see
Aug 25 16:48:43 <javispedro> Estel_: plus it's not very useful as kickstand because of low angle
Aug 25 16:48:45 <Estel_> apple and innovations? 0_o?
Aug 25 16:49:02 <Estel_> javispedro, huh, it's probably about personal prefferences, I find it quite convenient
Aug 25 16:49:19 <Estel_> apple is selling same product all over the years, as far as I can tell
Aug 25 16:49:33 <javispedro> they might, but everyone copies them regardless.
Aug 25 16:49:37 <Estel_> yep
Aug 25 16:50:06 <Estel_> if jolla is going to make capacitive-screen-only device, with roudn eges, I'm going to hate them. Officially.
Aug 25 16:50:15 <Estel_> s/roudn/round/
Aug 25 16:50:15 <infobot> Estel_ meant: if jolla is going to make capacitive-screen-only device, with round eges, I'm going to hate them. Officially.
Aug 25 16:50:18 <javispedro> I'd start looking for another company..
Aug 25 16:50:23 <Estel_> ;)
Aug 25 16:50:52 <Estel_> no, seriously it depends on whats behind the surface - Os, lack of aegis-like shit, etc... But, poor external design wouldn't be nice, too
Aug 25 16:50:53 <DocScrutinizer05> yu can't innovate like Apple - Pragmatic Marketing, world's most popular product management training
Aug 25 16:51:11 <DocScrutinizer05> fomg-optimize: you can't innovate like Apple - Pragmatic Marketing, world's most popular product management training
Aug 25 16:51:24 <javispedro> what I found true about apple is that they sometime do what is commonly said about them -- get something existing and improve it up to the point it is actually somewhat useful
Aug 25 16:51:48 <javispedro> (some some some some ....)
Aug 25 16:51:50 <Estel_> well, I hope that today's stupid jury decision in US will at least *a little* convince companies to do their own things
Aug 25 16:52:06 <DocScrutinizer05> fomg-optimize: http://www.pragmaticmarketing.com/resources/You-Cant-Innovate-Like-Apple
Aug 25 16:52:09 <Estel_> let alone fact that jury's decision is idiotic, samsung 8was* a "xero-boy" company
Aug 25 16:52:17 * Sicelo sees nothing stupid in the decision
Aug 25 16:52:21 <fomg-optimize> DocScrutinizer05 Thank you very much!
Aug 25 16:52:47 <Estel_> Sicelo, I see patented triangles and squiares as something stupid, could hasppen in US only ;P
Aug 25 16:53:04 <Estel_> appleshit tried same thing in EU, but for now failed. although, we have quite big lobby in eu parlament for that...
Aug 25 16:53:08 <Estel_> so who knows what future will bring
Aug 25 16:53:14 <fomg-optimize> Do not forget how EULA in many corporations now forbid you to do class-actions lawsuits
Aug 25 16:53:18 <Estel_> many, many forces would like us patent nonsense in europe
Aug 25 16:53:42 <Estel_> fomg-optimize, in most civilized countries such aprt of eula is "null and void"
Aug 25 16:53:43 <fomg-optimize> *from many corporations products
Aug 25 16:53:46 <Estel_> by higher laws
Aug 25 16:53:49 <fomg-optimize> True
Aug 25 16:53:53 <fomg-optimize> But not all
Aug 25 16:53:57 <fomg-optimize> That is bad enough
Aug 25 16:54:07 <Estel_> blame law of such countries more than corporates
Aug 25 16:54:12 <Estel_> corporations*
Aug 25 16:54:25 <Sicelo> apparently it came out during the case that Samsung didn't accidentally imitate iPhone. seems to have been direct plagiarism. from what i got, even Google warned them against such a move
Aug 25 16:54:26 <jacekowski> in some countries if any part of eula is illegal then whole eula is void and it's free for all
Aug 25 16:55:08 <Estel_> Sicelo, from what i know, during the case it also came out that apple imitiated, via direct plagiarism, other things that were before them ;)
Aug 25 16:55:15 <jacekowski> thing is, if i would want an iphone, i would buy an iphone
Aug 25 16:55:16 <Estel_> still, patented round edges is idiotic thing
Aug 25 16:55:29 <jacekowski> not iphonelike phone from samsung
Aug 25 16:55:30 <Estel_> jacekowski, true
Aug 25 16:55:33 <Estel_> but price tag
Aug 25 16:55:41 <Estel_> some people just want iphone with lower price ;p
Aug 25 16:55:42 <jacekowski> Estel_: well, about the same
Aug 25 16:55:55 <jacekowski> Estel_: galaxy s3 costs more than iphone
Aug 25 16:56:00 <Estel_> true.
Aug 25 16:56:36 <Estel_> well, still can't feel sympathetic for patent trolling, but, if it would convince samsung to stop being xero boy... ;P)
Aug 25 16:57:08 <Estel_> I'm just afraid that microsoft is going to do the same using Nokia's patents
Aug 25 16:57:30 <Estel_> which would be more problematic
Aug 25 16:59:38 <fomg-optimize> Wait there is a difference between Microsoft and Nokia
Aug 25 16:59:45 <fomg-optimize> I thought they were the same company?
Aug 25 16:59:51 <teotwaki__> they are
Aug 25 17:00:12 <fomg-optimize> Ah ok good, now I understand the world again
Aug 25 17:02:33 <javispedro>  Estel_ : it's a bit exaggerated to say "rounded corners only"
Aug 25 17:02:51 <javispedro> Estel_: it's more like rounder corners, glossy, small bezel, button..
Aug 25 17:02:52 <javispedro> black
Aug 25 17:02:55 <javispedro> etc.
Aug 25 17:03:07 <Estel_> sur,e it's more about that, but every single bit of it cna be used for patent trolling
Aug 25 17:03:17 <Estel_> = generally irrelevant things
Aug 25 17:03:20 <Estel_> glossy
Aug 25 17:03:30 <javispedro> meh, I'd wish they'd drop stupid glossy
Aug 25 17:03:42 <Estel_> comign next: apple sue teens with glossy lips for patent offense
Aug 25 17:03:47 <Estel_> same here :P
Aug 25 17:03:55 <javispedro> that'd be wonderful
Aug 25 17:03:57 <Estel_> glossy is damn useless
Aug 25 17:04:02 <javispedro> apple, the enforcer of matte screen.
Aug 25 17:04:07 <javispedro> *screens.
Aug 25 17:04:14 <Estel_> he, he
Aug 25 17:05:03 <Estel_> freemangordon, ping
Aug 25 17:05:12 <Estel_> freemangordon, don't be afraid, just small question :P
Aug 25 17:06:06 <Estel_> freemangordon, some times ago you've tested command that was about setting keyboard mapping for screen :1, to make external keyboard work in Easy Debian
Aug 25 17:06:17 <Estel_> call me an idiot 100 times, but I have lost it somewhere, can't find it for a life of me
Aug 25 17:06:23 <Estel_> searched for 3 days, actually
Aug 25 17:07:09 <Estel_> it was one liner, afaik, maybe You remember how it looked? I wan't to prepare small set of scripts, that would be compatible with extkbd, for hassle-free support of external keyboard in ED, and stop that BT-HID *or* extkbd madness
Aug 25 17:07:20 <Estel_> if it wil lwork OK, might update extkbd with those scripts included
Aug 25 17:07:35 <Estel_> or convince someone skilled more to incorporate it (not You, you have said that You're too buy with other things)
Aug 25 17:07:51 <Estel_> so if You happen to remember what it was, or could recover it, thanks thousand of times :)
Aug 25 17:07:59 <Estel_> freemangordon ^^^
Aug 25 17:10:47 <Estel_> brb
Aug 25 17:15:42 <DocScrutinizer05> hehe >>There’s a great quote by Henry Ford, right? He said, ‘If I’d have asked my customers what they wanted, they would have told me ‘A faster horse.’’’<<
Aug 25 17:16:00 <javispedro> A cheaper iPhone!
Aug 25 17:16:04 <javispedro> but also..
Aug 25 17:16:08 <javispedro> a better N900!
Aug 25 17:16:33 <javispedro> double-edged sword...
Aug 25 17:16:44 <DocScrutinizer05> sure
Aug 25 17:17:57 <DocScrutinizer05> actually I want a PC in my pocket, with awesome connectivity, and possibly a pretty innovative convenient though not too all-new-and-unusual HID
Aug 25 17:19:04 <DocScrutinizer05> or rather, make that: "not a too unusual new user interface paradigm"
Aug 25 17:20:16 <fomg-optimize> Google glass? nyah nyah
Aug 25 17:20:59 <javispedro> might be the first google device I buy, if they make it cheap enough
Aug 25 17:21:05 <DocScrutinizer05> like in: Headmounted Display fine, (yep glass:-D kinda) speech input fine, as an alternative, since no xterm&shell no way!
Aug 25 17:22:02 <DocScrutinizer05> well, I already asked if somebody could get me one, but it seems for now it's available to selected customers/partners of Google only
Aug 25 17:23:37 <DocScrutinizer05> IOW while I appreciate a new UI concept, it has to keep "backwards compatibility" by all means
Aug 25 17:24:29 <DocScrutinizer05> (something that leats me already frown upon HARM qml as primary and "only"  toolkit for GUI building)
Aug 25 17:25:11 <fomg-optimize> I especially like the second video: http://searchenginewatch.com/article/2166559/6-Funny-Google-Project-Glass-Parody-Videos
Aug 25 17:25:28 <DocScrutinizer05> ooh parody
Aug 25 17:25:45 <DocScrutinizer05> not really interested in :-)
Aug 25 17:25:56 <fomg-optimize> WEll, you will like the second one
Aug 25 17:26:01 <fomg-optimize> That is how it really is going to be
Aug 25 17:26:09 <DocScrutinizer05> hmm, ok
Aug 25 17:26:12 <fomg-optimize> Google has to make money after all
Aug 25 17:26:58 <DocScrutinizer05> now what's 2nd in your counting? incl original=1, or original=0
Aug 25 17:28:10 <fomg-optimize> original = 1
Aug 25 17:28:10 <fomg-optimize>  :)
Aug 25 17:28:30 <fomg-optimize> SHould have thought about which channel I was porting ;)
Aug 25 17:28:42 <fomg-optimize> *typing
Aug 25 17:32:23 <javispedro> it is funny
Aug 25 17:32:47 <teotwaki__> any C++11 experts here?
Aug 25 17:35:18 <DocScrutinizer05> fomg-optimize: yep, #2 is probably the direction it will go, but it's WAAAY too optimistic and lacking the deeper implications. There will be way better more subtile manipulation since Google knows you better than you do. They don't need cheesy google ads popping up, there's more ffective way to make you do whatever THEY want
Aug 25 17:35:48 <DocScrutinizer05> but that's exactly why I want such a thing, to counteract that in the earliest possible stage
Aug 25 17:36:25 <fomg-optimize> Ah, well, if google goes that way, it might be the first step they take from previously having separated ads with content
Aug 25 17:36:36 <javispedro> mwahahaha
Aug 25 17:36:46 <fomg-optimize> *from
Aug 25 17:37:17 <fomg-optimize> OOh, google mind control
Aug 25 17:37:22 <fomg-optimize> Blade Runner here i come
Aug 25 17:37:40 <fomg-optimize> Guess I might have the chance to live in that world after all
Aug 25 17:38:25 <fomg-optimize> And yes I am a bit worried, but normal defence is to joke about serious things
Aug 25 17:38:53 <DocScrutinizer05> fomg-optimize: when Google knows you usually get hungry on your way to work, since you always eat a burger when you arrive, they might pick a route to walk when subway closed, so they know you'll enter that burger shop with the advertisment they know you're susceptable to
Aug 25 17:39:36 <fomg-optimize> Seams reasonable
Aug 25 17:39:38 <fomg-optimize> Seems
Aug 25 17:39:49 <fomg-optimize> God, my brain is not working toda
Aug 25 17:40:06 <DocScrutinizer05> they even may sell a custom tailored advertisment to the shop owner
Aug 25 17:40:29 <Estel_> You must have been eating many burgers, to make them prepare custom add for You
Aug 25 17:40:33 <Estel_> unless it's led screen
Aug 25 17:40:44 <DocScrutinizer05> that's what I mean
Aug 25 17:40:50 <Estel_> with adverts changing, dpeneding on who is passing nearby (identified b ygoogle glass)
Aug 25 17:41:01 <Estel_> aka "minority reportt"
Aug 25 17:41:13 <Estel_> they have identified You by eye, it will identify You by google glass
Aug 25 17:41:15 <Estel_> ha, ha
Aug 25 17:41:27 <DocScrutinizer05> either have a real active display on pavement, or simply use your glass to show the ad just to you in the right moment
Aug 25 17:41:35 <Estel_> sure, augmented reality
Aug 25 17:41:52 <fomg-optimize> Augmented marketing is the correct term
Aug 25 17:42:08 <fomg-optimize> The marketing name is augmented reality
Aug 25 17:42:11 <Estel_> have I said something about dream of contact lenses that have function for night-vision during night (using infra-red diodes mounted to cloothing), and semi-transparent screen on them?
Aug 25 17:42:13 <DocScrutinizer05> and rooted glasses OS is the right answer
Aug 25 17:42:27 <Estel_> I would use them *only* if it wouldn't be connected to any network at all, or be totally FOSS based
Aug 25 17:42:51 <Estel_> most likely, connected to any device with <put name of future personal area network here>
Aug 25 17:43:08 <Estel_> not some arbitraty enforced pack on belt, made by google :p
Aug 25 17:44:20 <DocScrutinizer05> well I'm an experienced senior EE and system architect, I'm confident in my ability to understand what Google can do on their glass (in OS) and what they can't
Aug 25 17:44:53 <Estel_> well, basically, they can do almost anything they want, yep?:)
Aug 25 17:45:04 <DocScrutinizer05> but sure a all FOSS OS would be preferrable
Aug 25 17:45:45 <Estel_> all in all, it's more easy to do DIY hardware semi-transparent screen glasses, contected to whatever You want, that DIY contact lenses :(
Aug 25 17:45:58 <Estel_> until 3D printers become *that* good, to print contact lenses, that is
Aug 25 17:46:23 <Estel_> personally, i just can't stand glasses, barely stand black ones for summer
Aug 25 17:46:58 <Estel_> ...which most of the time mean that I don't wear them even on brightest sun, heh
Aug 25 17:47:22 <Estel_> contact lenses with infra-red vision for night, and sun-limiting factor for day, that is
Aug 25 17:47:39 <DocScrutinizer05> javispedro: what's been your "mwahaha" been a reply to?
Aug 25 17:47:54 <javispedro> "it might be the first step they take from previously having separated ads with content"
Aug 25 17:48:04 <DocScrutinizer05> aah
Aug 25 17:48:06 <javispedro> it would not precisely be the first step...
Aug 25 17:49:33 <DocScrutinizer05> the "funny thing" aqbout google glasses: I'm interested in exactly that technology since ~6 years already
Aug 25 17:50:25 <javispedro> probably
Aug 25 17:50:35 <DocScrutinizer05> actually we evaluated at OM how FR was a suitable platform for a orientation aid for the vision impaired
Aug 25 17:50:47 <javispedro> that's a good usecase.
Aug 25 17:51:35 <fomg-optimize> Ive been interested in augmented reality glasses since Dennō Coil :)
Aug 25 17:51:40 <DocScrutinizer05> and I recall discussing with Raster in a cafe in Taipei about 24/7 video diary
Aug 25 17:52:06 <fomg-optimize> <javispedro what about first step
Aug 25 17:52:09 <fomg-optimize> Are they aldready doing it?
Aug 25 17:52:52 <fomg-optimize> DocScrutinizer05 OM FR?
Aug 25 17:53:00 <kerio> openmoko freerunner
Aug 25 17:53:03 <DocScrutinizer05> OpenMoko FreeRunner
Aug 25 17:53:07 <fomg-optimize> Ah thank you
Aug 25 17:53:22 <kerio> a bad-ish phone
Aug 25 17:53:25 <kerio> DocScrutinizer05: :P
Aug 25 17:53:30 <fomg-optimize> Yeah i know about it
Aug 25 17:53:34 <DocScrutinizer05> no doubt
Aug 25 17:53:41 <fomg-optimize> At least I know something yay ;)
Aug 25 17:53:47 <kerio> yay
Aug 25 17:53:57 <DocScrutinizer05> ~joerg_rw
Aug 25 17:54:02 <DocScrutinizer05> ~joerg
Aug 25 17:54:03 <infobot> i guess joerg is a HW-developer and engineer of Openmoko, usually known as DocScrutinizer
Aug 25 17:54:13 <kerio> ~kerio
Aug 25 17:54:14 <infobot> hmm... kerio is <DocScrutinizer> [...] kerio is correct [...]
Aug 25 17:54:28 <kerio> neat, still there
Aug 25 17:54:37 <javispedro> lol
Aug 25 17:54:51 <javispedro> fomg-optimize: just get an android device and look at it or a while
Aug 25 17:55:26 <DocScrutinizer05> javispedro: you suddenly notice the subliminary visual messages?
Aug 25 17:55:48 <kerio> instead of finding ways to put android on the n900, wouldn't it be better to put maemo on a droid/milestone?
Aug 25 17:55:49 <javispedro> subliminary? =)
Aug 25 17:55:57 <DocScrutinizer05> javispedro: ...only when you blink
Aug 25 17:56:08 <DocScrutinizer05> ~dict subliminary
Aug 25 17:56:10 <infobot> could not find definition for subliminary
Aug 25 17:56:14 <DocScrutinizer05> dang
Aug 25 17:56:53 <fomg-optimize> Oh, about OM FR, ment I know about the phone not it being bad-ish :), things go too fast for me today :)
Aug 25 17:57:16 <DocScrutinizer05> subliminal
Aug 25 17:57:26 <DocScrutinizer05> pardon my French
Aug 25 17:58:04 <DocScrutinizer05> ~dict subliminal
Aug 25 17:58:06 <infobot> Dictionary 'subliminal' (1 of 2): below the threshold of conscious perception.
Aug 25 17:58:20 <Estel_> WTF?!
Aug 25 17:58:21 <Estel_> http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p=1255491&postcount=25
Aug 25 17:58:29 <DocScrutinizer05> ??
Aug 25 17:58:38 <Estel_> "that I just booted kernel 3.5-rc6 with N900"
Aug 25 17:58:51 <DocScrutinizer05> :shrug:
Aug 25 17:58:56 <kerio> neat
Aug 25 17:59:57 <DocScrutinizer05> nice bleeding edge kernel with acme-foo and total-bar, but lacking support for any of the more special peripherals of N900?
Aug 25 18:00:31 <Estel_> probably, but last time sometime tried recent kernel, he smelt burned electronic, as something about voltage for omap was wrong
Aug 25 18:00:43 <DocScrutinizer05> not something special to get a linux kernel running on an ARM platform
Aug 25 18:00:43 <Estel_> so "working fine" even if without screen yet, sounds quite nice :)
Aug 25 18:00:55 <fomg-optimize> Estel_ You kodding
Aug 25 18:00:58 <Estel_> nope
Aug 25 18:00:59 <fomg-optimize> *kidding
Aug 25 18:01:04 <fomg-optimize> Damn
Aug 25 18:01:34 <fomg-optimize> Eum, hmmm, maybe there is a point in not jumping too fast with upgrade experiments
Aug 25 18:01:44 <javispedro> meego used upstream kernels on n900, remember
Aug 25 18:01:44 <DocScrutinizer05> well, the real dangers of fools messing with kernel
Aug 25 18:01:47 <fomg-optimize> I truly did not think that could happen
Aug 25 18:01:48 <Estel_> it was year or two before, so I don't remember details
Aug 25 18:01:51 <javispedro> so it's not much dangerous
Aug 25 18:02:00 <javispedro> and go thank the few nokians that worked on meego
Aug 25 18:02:02 <Estel_> sure, fortunately, we don't have fools messing with kernel :)
Aug 25 18:02:47 <fomg-optimize> Hehe :)
Aug 25 18:02:49 <DocScrutinizer05> except that one fool who messed up I2C to a degree where even maemo proper could cause those smells and worse
Aug 25 18:02:54 <fomg-optimize> WEll, learned something new today
Aug 25 18:02:55 <Estel_> javispedro, sure, I suppose that guy who burned his device took something very wrong as kernel candidate for build
Aug 25 18:03:21 <Estel_> DocScrutinizer05, fortunatelly, no one burned device due to foodl messing with i2c, and it was time where we *had* foold messing with kernel :)
Aug 25 18:03:28 <Estel_> s/foold/sools/
Aug 25 18:03:28 <infobot> Estel_ meant: DocScrutinizer05, fortunatelly, no one burned device due to foodl messing with i2c, and it was time where we *had* sools messing with kernel :)
Aug 25 18:03:44 <DocScrutinizer05> actually I still wonder who "invented" that
Aug 25 18:03:46 <Estel_> *fanfare voice* then Pali took upon our orphaned little kernel, and everything changed...
Aug 25 18:03:49 <Estel_> In cinemas, this autumn!
Aug 25 18:03:59 <kerio> yay Pali ^___^
Aug 25 18:04:04 <Estel_> DocScrutinizer05, as far as I remember, matias, marxian, or someone starting at "mat"
Aug 25 18:04:06 <DocScrutinizer05> yep, Pali definitely no fool
Aug 25 18:04:21 <Estel_> then freemangordon united forces in episode 2
Aug 25 18:04:27 <Estel_> and empire striked back ;)
Aug 25 18:04:42 <Estel_> starting at "ma" to be precise
Aug 25 18:05:06 <kerio> yay Thumb2 ^___^
Aug 25 18:05:13 <Estel_> freemangordon did much before thumb2
Aug 25 18:05:21 <Estel_> both with Pali
Aug 25 18:05:26 <Estel_> and now zeq :)
Aug 25 18:05:42 <Estel_> I'm glad that zeq received dev device from Community (N900, not N9/N950)
Aug 25 18:05:55 <Estel_> in matter of few hours :D
Aug 25 18:06:23 <DocScrutinizer05> well, actually it took a tad longer til he physically received it
Aug 25 18:06:45 <Estel_> sure, money got collected in few hours
Aug 25 18:06:52 <kerio> Estel_: well, he does cssu-thumb with Pali and others
Aug 25 18:06:55 <Estel_> we  don't own maemo.org teleport device, yet :(
Aug 25 18:07:17 <Estel_> kerio, cssu-thumb is last pet-project of him, he did muuuuch for KP (and other projects) before
Aug 25 18:07:50 <Estel_> to name a few, 720p video recording, *proper* extkbd, stable and reliable SR VDD's...
Aug 25 18:07:57 <kerio> having packages compiled with linaro is neat
Aug 25 18:08:26 <DocScrutinizer05> whom are we talking about?
Aug 25 18:08:29 <kerio> i should install 720p support
Aug 25 18:08:30 <DocScrutinizer05> zeq?
Aug 25 18:08:39 <kerio> DocScrutinizer05: fmg
Aug 25 18:08:46 <kerio> freemangordon
Aug 25 18:09:15 <DocScrutinizer05> your context switcher needs adjustment then
Aug 25 18:09:50 <DocScrutinizer05> or maybe mine
Aug 25 18:10:01 <kerio> DocScrutinizer05: it's because i have to flush the branch prediction cache :(
Aug 25 18:10:08 <DocScrutinizer05> hehe
Aug 25 18:10:15 <javispedro> *You just won the community award. Now turn on your 3D printers while we send you the model of the N900...*
Aug 25 18:10:20 <DocScrutinizer05> o/
Aug 25 18:10:56 <kerio> you wouldn't download a n900!
Aug 25 18:11:08 <DocScrutinizer05> why not?
Aug 25 18:11:21 <kerio> meh, the hardware is kinda crappy
Aug 25 18:11:26 <kerio> >:D
Aug 25 18:11:37 <DocScrutinizer05> apply your patches at will ;-P
Aug 25 18:11:50 <kerio> moar ram, for instance
Aug 25 18:12:55 <DocScrutinizer05> kinda scary vision to think what type of 3D-printer that needs to be
Aug 25 18:12:58 <DocScrutinizer05> vacuum
Aug 25 18:13:04 <DocScrutinizer05> ion beam
Aug 25 18:13:35 <DocScrutinizer05> lots of radiation too, probably
Aug 25 18:13:36 <kerio> how the hell do you print a battery anyway?
Aug 25 18:14:14 <javispedro> actually you CAN print a battery
Aug 25 18:14:18 <DocScrutinizer05> actually you're right, some molecules are hard to process by ion beam technology - they'll simply crack
Aug 25 18:14:43 <javispedro> you cannot print a CPU though ;)
Aug 25 18:15:08 <javispedro> well, you can... though not a 16nm process one
Aug 25 18:15:17 <DocScrutinizer05> depends on printer
Aug 25 18:16:19 <fomg-optimize> THe most common use for 3d printers in the beginning will be sex toys, to embarassing to risk being caught in post, and on your credit card
Aug 25 18:16:34 <fomg-optimize> Not to mention them being illegal in some countries
Aug 25 18:20:14 <Estel_> fomg-optimize, 3D printers are pretty common now, and I would say that they have kinda *other* use case for now
Aug 25 18:21:02 <fomg-optimize> Just wait until they become commonplace ;)
Aug 25 18:24:07 <Estel_> merlin1991, wtf? next cssu-t will update busybox to one with portrait support...
Aug 25 18:24:11 <Estel_> but not busybox-power yet?
Aug 25 18:24:21 <Estel_> what sense is in touching busybox just to add portrait support? 0_o?
Aug 25 18:24:41 <javispedro> busybox with portrait support' 
Aug 25 18:24:42 <javispedro> ?
Aug 25 18:24:57 <Estel_> DocScrutinizer05, lol, we have argued about feasibility of upstream fixes, and now we will have busybox touched for no reason at all ;P
Aug 25 18:25:09 <Estel_> javispedro: http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p=1255362&postcount=275
Aug 25 18:25:20 <Estel_> don't ask me
Aug 25 18:25:23 * javispedro grabs popcorn
Aug 25 18:25:30 <Estel_> sound exactly as bizzare to me
Aug 25 18:25:40 <Estel_> but I'm sure that idon't doesn't say bullshit
Aug 25 18:26:57 <Estel_> I just wonder who got idea to incorporate modified busybox into cssu just for such irrelevant change, instead of waiting a little and putting busybox-power as a whole, with this change included
Aug 25 18:27:02 <Estel_> *facepalm*
Aug 25 18:27:19 <Estel_> I must go and eat some pizza, to shake this shock. see ya ;)
Aug 25 18:27:37 * javispedro reads stuff about aegis cracks on that thread and closes
Aug 25 18:29:47 <javispedro> WTF about setting the setuid bit to the busybox executable
Aug 25 18:29:48 <javispedro> crazy
Aug 25 18:30:35 <DocScrutinizer05> WUT???
Aug 25 18:31:37 <DocScrutinizer05> messybox suid? ok fine, tomorrow expect my virus exploiting that
Aug 25 18:32:47 <javispedro> TMO is crazier every day.
Aug 25 18:33:54 <NIN101> (like maemo is super high security anyway :P)
Aug 25 18:35:02 <GeneralAntilles> javispedro, I have a °C/°F bug with MeeCast.
Aug 25 18:35:17 <javispedro> GeneralAntilles: see my message on #harmattan ;)
Aug 25 18:35:17 <GeneralAntilles> It's set to °F and says °F on the watch, but it's definitely not 31° here. :D
Aug 25 18:35:28 <javispedro> aha, just as I suspected.
Aug 25 18:35:31 <javispedro> GeneralAntilles: what is your weather provider?
Aug 25 18:35:36 <GeneralAntilles> weather.com
Aug 25 18:35:40 <javispedro> aha
Aug 25 18:35:49 <javispedro> ok, so this'll be fixed today.
Aug 25 18:36:04 <GeneralAntilles> javispedro, where's the layout for the weather row?
Aug 25 18:36:13 <javispedro> it's not QML sadly.
Aug 25 18:36:16 <GeneralAntilles> Poo
Aug 25 18:36:50 <javispedro> GeneralAntilles: mostly because it's just a few lines long, in metawatch/metawatchdigital.cpp around 190
Aug 25 18:36:50 <GeneralAntilles> I want to drop the text, shift the icon over, display both °C/°F, and high/low or humidity.
Aug 25 18:37:29 <GeneralAntilles> Haha. I see your message in Growl.
Aug 25 18:49:31 <DocScrutinizer05> NIN101: mine is ;-P
Aug 25 18:50:05 <DocScrutinizer05> NIN101: until some fool sneaky injects some insecure shell with suid set
Aug 25 18:51:47 <DocScrutinizer05> but no worries, this won't ever happen on CSSU
Aug 25 18:52:22 <DocScrutinizer05> suid not being set on messybox is not exactly a bug Nokia made that we need to fix in CSSU
Aug 25 18:53:38 <javispedro> the bug is ping & su
Aug 25 18:53:39 <NIN101> also it seems nobody really cares about the servers, I guess it would be dead simple to upload a package with malware and nobody would notice it. 
Aug 25 18:55:52 <DocScrutinizer05> javispedro: that's why su isn't used in maemo and we got sudo instead
Aug 25 18:56:22 <Estel_> DocScrutinizer05, calm down, suid isn't messed up with busybox on fremantle
Aug 25 18:56:43 <Estel_> and don't be so sure what will happen on cssu or not, I have seen worse things :P (ke-recv mess, or operator-widget-name...)
Aug 25 18:56:51 <Macer> NIN101: lol. isn't that true of any open-source distro?
Aug 25 18:56:52 <DocScrutinizer05> Estel_: don't tell me to calm down, I'm as calm as it gets until you doing so
Aug 25 18:56:53 <Estel_> it was about harmattanm
Aug 25 18:57:01 <Estel_> hehehe
Aug 25 18:57:11 <Macer> NIN101: or the android market? :)
Aug 25 18:57:16 <Estel_> well, better answer me why busybox is going to be updated with meaningless portrait support
Aug 25 18:57:18 <Estel_> in cssu
Aug 25 18:57:44 <Estel_> I  know it's not question to you, as You're not maintainer, but still, i'm kinda surprised
Aug 25 18:57:52 <DocScrutinizer05> Estel_: when you've seen worse things, then pretty please why did they happen?
Aug 25 18:57:53 <Macer> buybox is going to be updated for portrait?
Aug 25 18:58:10 <Macer> wouldn't that be more of an xterm issue?
Aug 25 18:58:17 <Macer> or wm issue than busybox?
Aug 25 18:58:18 <Estel_> Macer, no idea, idk what it's all about
Aug 25 18:58:23 <DocScrutinizer05> I.E. WTF do you think something will happen despite I noticed the problem?
Aug 25 18:58:33 <Estel_> all i want to see in cssu regarding busybox is upstream updates, aka busybox-power
Aug 25 18:58:50 <Macer> Estel_: i want to see a unicorn :)
Aug 25 18:58:51 <NIN101> Macer: it is probably true for most open source distris, but I think on maemo the situation is even worse as nobody really seems to care
Aug 25 18:58:57 <Estel_> DocScrutinizer05, because you're not maintainer - despite that you like to sound like one - and maintainers aren't obliged to follow Your advices...
Aug 25 18:58:59 <DocScrutinizer05> Estel_: stop wanting to see anything
Aug 25 18:59:05 <Estel_> despite fact that I actually agree about suid bit thing
Aug 25 18:59:07 <Estel_> concerns
Aug 25 18:59:17 <Macer> NIN101: yah well... for all intents and purposes other than a few dedicated devs .. maemo is dead ;)
Aug 25 18:59:18 <Estel_> etc
Aug 25 18:59:37 <Estel_> Macer, Maemo have more users and dedicated devs, that it even had before
Aug 25 18:59:49 <Estel_> hard to understand from point of lumnia user, who is satisfied with it as a phone, though :(
Aug 25 19:00:14 <Macer> Estel_: i wasn't knocking maemo. i think it is awesome. i'm just saying that it is lacking in the community which it used to have
Aug 25 19:00:17 <Estel_> for all usability as mobile computer in pocket intents and purposes, there is still no alternative, no matter of we like it or not
Aug 25 19:00:30 <Estel_> in my eyes, it have more competent community than a year ago
Aug 25 19:00:31 <Macer> i agree
Aug 25 19:00:39 <DocScrutinizer05> Estel_: please take notice of https://garage.maemo.org/projects/cssu/
Aug 25 19:00:41 <Estel_> and year ago it had more competent community than 2 years ago... etc
Aug 25 19:00:50 <Macer> but a discontinued device... eventually they will phase out
Aug 25 19:00:55 <DocScrutinizer05> grep estel
Aug 25 19:00:59 <DocScrutinizer05> grep joerg
Aug 25 19:01:06 <Estel_> DocScrutinizer05, I have seen You have been asking merlin1991 today or yesterday to add You there
Aug 25 19:01:11 <Estel_> because someone wanted git or so goes on ;P
Aug 25 19:01:21 <DocScrutinizer05> again a "lie"
Aug 25 19:01:32 <Estel_> don't make me backscroll to quotation ;)
Aug 25 19:01:41 <DocScrutinizer05> please do
Aug 25 19:01:43 <Macer> heh
Aug 25 19:01:51 <Estel_> in this meaning, both freeman and Pali could ask for same thing
Aug 25 19:01:53 <DocScrutinizer05> then you'll learn it been about *git*
Aug 25 19:02:11 <Estel_> well, so when it changed? You got officially promoted as CSSU maintainer?
Aug 25 19:02:20 <Estel_> pity that I haven't seen MWKN about it :(
Aug 25 19:02:31 <DocScrutinizer05> up to you to find out truth about your lies
Aug 25 19:02:31 <Macer> i miss lcuk :-/
Aug 25 19:02:39 <Estel_> I'm eager to see bunchloads of contributions to CSSu code from you, now. No irony intended
Aug 25 19:02:41 <Macer> he was comic relief here heh
Aug 25 19:02:49 <Macer> and stskeeps :-/
Aug 25 19:03:02 <Estel_> Stskeeps is here many times
Aug 25 19:03:09 <Estel_> otherwise, go to #mer and you will meet him ;0
Aug 25 19:03:10 <Macer> Estel_: not like the before time
Aug 25 19:03:22 <Macer> he is concentrating on mer quite a bit
Aug 25 19:03:26 <Estel_> well, he is working on Mer, hard, udnerstandable that he is more interested in #mer
Aug 25 19:03:56 <Estel_> DocScrutinizer05, so ass full-fledged maintainer, could You explain me this whole mess about updating busybox for "portrait support"?
Aug 25 19:03:59 <Estel_> I don't get it
Aug 25 19:04:21 <Macer> you sure it was busybox?
Aug 25 19:04:24 <Estel_> s/ass/as/
Aug 25 19:04:32 <DocScrutinizer05> Estel_: actually I don't get it as well, I assume it's about some handling of termcaps
Aug 25 19:04:39 <Estel_> I hope
Aug 25 19:04:55 <Estel_> and sorry for writing that you're not maintainer, I really wasn't aware
Aug 25 19:05:08 <Estel_> 3 weeks ago you were maintainer too?
Aug 25 19:05:11 <javispedro> <Estel_> and year ago it had more competent community than 2 years ago... etc
Aug 25 19:05:13 <javispedro> ...
Aug 25 19:05:16 <Macer> Estel_: is that the awesome better than a year ago community you were talking about?
Aug 25 19:05:19 <Macer> javispedro: lol!
Aug 25 19:05:27 <Estel_> javispedro, well, from someone inside Maemo Community, thats the feeling
Aug 25 19:05:39 <Macer> Estel_: did you get a free N950?
Aug 25 19:05:39 <Sicelo> heh
Aug 25 19:05:53 <Estel_> don't do sophism on simple missunderstanding about busybox - which may turn to be hoax anyway
Aug 25 19:05:56 <javispedro> Estel_: I didn't even see you on IRC back when I last thought the maemo community was flourishing.
Aug 25 19:06:08 <javispedro> it's been downhill since then... :(
Aug 25 19:06:13 <Estel_> javispedro, well, udnerstandable, as You have left it - for msot intents and purposes - long ago :)
Aug 25 19:06:17 <Macer> javispedro: heh. i agree. this place used to be great :)
Aug 25 19:06:24 <DocScrutinizer05> Estel_: yes, nothing changed the last few months (or actaully whole year?)
Aug 25 19:06:37 <Estel_> but as far as I can tell, for most people than are more involved in Maemo than IRC, it's flourishing.
Aug 25 19:06:43 <Estel_> DocScrutinizer05, so my bad
Aug 25 19:06:47 <Estel_> I admit that without spanking :)
Aug 25 19:07:04 <javispedro> most of the people that did cool stuff have left.
Aug 25 19:07:11 <Macer> Estel_: yeah but irc is where it all really happens lol.. web based stuff is just for reference :) 
Aug 25 19:07:14 <Macer> javispedro: yeah :(
Aug 25 19:07:22 <Estel_> could say same thing about meego and later mer. and today, mer doesn't look like "DeaD", yep?
Aug 25 19:07:26 <Macer> there were some fun personalities here a few years ago
Aug 25 19:07:38 <Estel_> we have great bunch of awesome developers, that are doing even more astounishing work, that those who left did.
Aug 25 19:07:46 <javispedro> this is certainly not dead.
Aug 25 19:07:46 <Macer> Estel_: mer isn't the same as it was and had quite a few reboots as to its direction
Aug 25 19:07:54 <Estel_> for me, "competent community" is something more than funny talks on IRC
Aug 25 19:07:58 <Estel_> its smaller, for sure
Aug 25 19:08:22 <Estel_> but overall level of competentness rised, which suits my tastes, actually. I have many opportunities to learn from people heaven's more experienced than me
Aug 25 19:08:32 <javispedro> but basically all the good things that come out these days are ways to squeeze the latest 0.01% in performance
Aug 25 19:08:40 <Macer> Estel_: the problem is with maemo having quite a few closed bits and the inability to install it on another (newer?) device
Aug 25 19:08:44 <Estel_> Mace,r sure, and everything isn't the same since we were young and had enough potence to do it 20 times before dawn
Aug 25 19:09:05 <Estel_> but it's hardly a reason to disrespect current efforts, and iu wouldn't call it objective look, neither
Aug 25 19:09:12 <Macer> Estel_: not really. it is just that most people lost interest.. as well as the fun spats :) 
Aug 25 19:09:24 <javispedro> Estel_: noone is disrepecting current efforts. but please don't disrespect everything that came before.
Aug 25 19:09:26 <Estel_> it seems that our definition of "most people" differ greatly :)
Aug 25 19:09:28 <Macer> i remember stskeeps coming in here and starting a 3 hour debat on gpl vs lgpl heh
Aug 25 19:09:34 <Estel_> javispedro, I'm not.
Aug 25 19:09:39 <Estel_> people who did before made great things
Aug 25 19:09:48 <Estel_> and they had they right to go into greener pastures, or to lose interest at all
Aug 25 19:09:50 <Estel_> it's all OK
Aug 25 19:10:00 <Macer> Estel_: people who did before made most things .. most of the base.. most of the apps in the repos.. etc
Aug 25 19:10:01 <Estel_> nothing good or bad about it, that;s cycle of life. some people leave, some arrive
Aug 25 19:10:25 <Macer> the ones who came before were also the main devs for cssu after nokia discontinued maemo
Aug 25 19:10:47 <Estel_> now we have more "tunneled" view, i.e. lest packages maintained, but those who are, are maintained like a hell, very actively. Before we had florusihing repos with 34234523432 projects, half of them half-baked - and it was OK for that time
Aug 25 19:10:49 <Macer> ah well.. anyways... ttyl. have to clean. 
Aug 25 19:11:04 <javispedro> Estel_: you have a point there.
Aug 25 19:11:10 <Estel_> now people choose where to spent their time well, but are loyal to own pet-projects, and ensure them to be top quality.
Aug 25 19:11:45 <Estel_> It's different, but from my personal point of view - and no one is enforced to share it - it's not "worse" or "better", just different stage of life. every project have such stages, IMO.
Aug 25 19:12:07 <Estel_> thanks, as I really don't want to sound like disrespecting former deeds, it was awesome for it's time, just different
Aug 25 19:12:09 <Macer> Estel_: i'm just saying the hardware limitation of maemo will eventually lead to its fall
Aug 25 19:12:31 <DocScrutinizer05> ((<javispedro> Estel_: noone is disrepecting current efforts. but please don't disrespect everything that came before.)) see, that's another commonly used trick, first say "3 years ago there were only fools, 1 year ago it got much more competence" then when somebody points to the fact this being incorrect, go and accuse the one pointing to it that he'd state "today there are only fools"
Aug 25 19:12:33 <Macer> Estel_: find a way to flash a maemo image to my TF101 ;) and it might breed new life into it
Aug 25 19:13:07 <Estel_> DocScrutinizer05, don't play judas here, we're not arguing :)
Aug 25 19:13:17 <Estel_> Macer, hardware considerations are all justified
Aug 25 19:13:32 <Macer> Estel_: it is the main reason maemo is falling 
Aug 25 19:13:33 <Estel_> if You ask me, Mer will be natural next step, when something *really* good show up
Aug 25 19:13:34 <javispedro> DocScrutinizer05: I see the irony indeed :)
Aug 25 19:13:43 <Estel_> which doesn't mean abandoning my N90 0for many years, BTW
Aug 25 19:13:47 <Macer> broken n900s without anything else to put maemo on...
Aug 25 19:13:54 <javispedro> another double-edged sword ;P
Aug 25 19:14:41 <Macer> just saying
Aug 25 19:14:44 <Estel_> all I was trying to sya by "more competent" is overall % of people skilled and more, of total percentage of people interested
Aug 25 19:14:55 <Macer> maemo will eventually run out of viable hardare to run it on
Aug 25 19:15:01 <Macer> with a few surviving N900s out there
Aug 25 19:15:07 <Estel_> Macer, wouldn't be afraid of it for many years
Aug 25 19:15:21 <Macer> Estel_: heh. well. it would be nice to  hve a hardware alternative
Aug 25 19:15:25 <Estel_> especiaslly considering people stacking up N900's, and how many are still available
Aug 25 19:15:29 <Estel_> of course
Aug 25 19:15:36 <Macer> stacking up? ;)
Aug 25 19:15:42 <Macer> does nokia produce n900s anymore?
Aug 25 19:15:54 <Macer> i know you used to be able to buy them from skype at a totally retarded price
Aug 25 19:16:00 <Estel_> well, I *hope* that we're going to see sane FOSS platform, *before* N900 gets too rare, it may end up being pricey like N950 now ;P
Aug 25 19:16:24 <javispedro> from skype? 
Aug 25 19:16:24 <javispedro> ah
Aug 25 19:16:28 <javispedro> yeah, I remember
Aug 25 19:16:35 <Estel_> but I think that in 4 or 5 years from now, it wouldn't be so hard to  buy N900, still
Aug 25 19:16:39 <Macer> Estel_: if you can find a way to put a working fully functional maemo on anything then it would be the best thing that happened to a mobile true linux distro in years
Aug 25 19:16:53 <Estel_> Macer, sure, but that is called Mer, isn't it?
Aug 25 19:16:58 <javispedro> exactly
Aug 25 19:17:08 <Macer> Estel_: i haven't figured out a way to install mer easily on my tf101
Aug 25 19:17:09 <Macer> :-P
Aug 25 19:17:10 <Estel_> fact that free Ui still sucks a little (but it's greatly improved every month) doesn't depreciate it
Aug 25 19:17:18 <Estel_> so change hardware ;P
Aug 25 19:17:33 <Macer> Estel_: to........?
Aug 25 19:17:44 <Estel_> <put hope for jolla here>
Aug 25 19:18:07 <Estel_> also vivaldi, if they ever manage to finish it
Aug 25 19:18:09 <Macer> there is plenty of hardware with kernels etc that are accessable
Aug 25 19:18:19 <Estel_> it would have mer there in eyeblink
Aug 25 19:18:20 <Macer> but no focus on showing people it can work on their hardware
Aug 25 19:18:23 <Estel_> I suspect closed blobs problems
Aug 25 19:18:48 <Estel_> I suspect that currently, it's more about focus on running on dedicated hardware (jolla) than scavenged one from android
Aug 25 19:18:48 <Macer> if you coul dget mer/active on a tf101 you would see people buyign tf101s for like $1000 on ebay :-P
Aug 25 19:18:54 <Estel_> after all, why pay money to android
Aug 25 19:19:00 <Estel_> just to scrap it
Aug 25 19:19:04 <Macer> Estel_: but the hardware is simple nvidia basted tegra stuff
Aug 25 19:19:04 <Estel_> and install something else
Aug 25 19:19:08 <Estel_> and feel problems with blobs
Aug 25 19:19:13 <Macer> because the hardware is good
Aug 25 19:19:22 <Macer> at the least better than anything you'll ever find running mer on it
Aug 25 19:19:22 <Estel_> nvidia is worse thing for FOSS, ever
Aug 25 19:19:27 <Estel_> in terms of hardware
Aug 25 19:19:49 <Estel_> no use for it, as hardware control things are so closed, that it's just resources for sake of resources
Aug 25 19:19:54 <Estel_> or for aiding them spying on You :P
Aug 25 19:19:56 <Estel_> effectively
Aug 25 19:20:03 <Macer> the mer/active open source tablets are going to be some crap chinese company with low qa
Aug 25 19:20:04 <Estel_> and encrypt it on the fly ;)
Aug 25 19:20:06 <Macer> like the touchbook
Aug 25 19:20:09 <Macer> omg what a mess that thing was
Aug 25 19:20:33 <Estel_> vivaldi is one example of effort into scavenging android hardware. Jolla is example of effort with dedicated hardware
Aug 25 19:20:44 <Estel_> I don't need shit'n'giggle tegra resources, nvidia can kiss my ass
Aug 25 19:20:50 <Estel_> all i need is more ram :P
Aug 25 19:20:54 <Macer> both of which will suck when compared to more stable and tested hardware
Aug 25 19:21:08 <Macer> ie: higher quality name branded tablets
Aug 25 19:21:13 <DocScrutinizer05> Estel_: JFYI on HARM, thanks aegis and per-binary-capabilities, it's basically meaningless if anything got SUID or not, and for sure it doesn't impact on security of system
Aug 25 19:21:30 <Estel_> DocScrutinizer05, no idea, I'm absolutely noobish about harm
Aug 25 19:21:51 <Estel_> despite having device to learn it, it's so absurd operating system, that I can't make myself into learning it more
Aug 25 19:22:01 <Estel_> wil lend up installing Mer on N950, despite lacking hardware support, I suppose
Aug 25 19:22:51 <Estel_> btw, as for Mer, just "give" me hildon-like ui, instead of all those apple-clone or swipe-clone uis (swipe, what a hoax, it's useless), and i;ll be happy ;)
Aug 25 19:23:36 <Estel_> DocScrutinizer05, btw, what a "virus" you want to implement abusing suid on busybox? Isn't it easier to make Your virus-script to use "root", as it's open on 99% of devices, anyway?:P
Aug 25 19:24:27 <Estel_> btw, maybe there is a viable way to use sudser package, instead of rootsh, without sacrificing conjveicence of using "root" command? i.e. profile things?>
Aug 25 19:24:42 <Estel_> You know, it should be easy to mod rootsh scripts to ask for password on "root" or "sudo gainroot"
Aug 25 19:24:48 <Estel_> once epr session
Aug 25 19:24:50 <Estel_> per*
Aug 25 19:24:54 <Estel_> instead making it free for all
Aug 25 19:25:11 <Estel_> or to use sudser, but mimin "root" script, with all it's profile gooddies
Aug 25 19:26:00 <Estel_> it's kind of a question, as I'm not experienced with sudo, unfortunatelly, hoever funny it sounds (as in configuring it much, not using :P )
Aug 25 19:26:22 <DocScrutinizer05> ((<Estel_> You know, it should be easy to mod rootsh scripts to ask for password on "root" or "sudo gainroot"))
Aug 25 19:26:26 <DocScrutinizer05> ~jrtools
Aug 25 19:26:27 <infobot> methinks jrtools is http://wiki.maemo.org/User:Joerg_rw/tools
Aug 25 19:26:38 <Estel_> thanks
Aug 25 19:29:16 <DocScrutinizer05> NB for semi-decent system security it neeeded a patch to HAM as well, as otherwise you can wipe all that by simply un/re-installing rootsh
Aug 25 19:29:53 <Estel_> fact
Aug 25 19:30:00 <Estel_> why cssu is doing that?:)
Aug 25 19:30:16 <Estel_> if it cares about suid for busybox (which, afaik, isn't the case for fremantle's busybox-power, at all)
Aug 25 19:30:16 <zsolt_hun> hello.i downloaded nitubuntu.chrooted and installed kernel,but can't boot.i use bootmenu.mer,shr boots well with bootmenu
Aug 25 19:31:20 <zsolt_hun> use n900
Aug 25 19:31:20 <DocScrutinizer05> sorry if my poor english again made you conclude wrong things and post them as if they were facts
Aug 25 19:31:34 <DocScrutinizer05> s/needed a patch/would need a patch/
Aug 25 19:32:33 <Estel_> sure, thats why I'm asking
Aug 25 19:32:46 <Estel_> if cssu is sooo conerned about security, why won't it fix most obvious hole first?
Aug 25 19:33:03 <DocScrutinizer05> because CSSU is conservative
Aug 25 19:33:12 <Estel_> aka recommendation for not using rootsh as seen in repos - which 99% of people do - and ham
Aug 25 19:33:18 <Estel_> poor reasoning, i'm afraid.
Aug 25 19:33:29 <Estel_> you can't be half-virgin half-pregnant
Aug 25 19:33:54 <Estel_> or it turns out that, in fact, you're denying some changes, without carrying for other obvious holes, just for sake of personal prefferences.
Aug 25 19:34:01 <Estel_> I'm out for now, see ya!
Aug 25 19:34:03 <DocScrutinizer05> meh, this again doesn't lead anywhere. You're welcome to contribute a proper patch, instead of ranting
Aug 25 19:35:09 <zsolt_hun> i can see all over the web,that ubuntu boots up on n900,but I'm so sad,because i can't do that
Aug 25 19:38:33 <DocScrutinizer05> Estel_: it turns out that you're insulting people and spreading lies about them, just for sake of your personal preferences (which seem to be arguing for the fun of arguing)
Aug 25 19:40:58 <sicelo_> zsolt_hun: you've read the ubuntu on n900 thread?
Aug 25 19:41:15 <DocScrutinizer05> (btw wtf a lame suggestion is THAT, regarding system security: >>recommendation for not using rootsh as seen in repos - which 99% of people do - and ham<<  What will stop any intruder from using those?)
Aug 25 19:41:49 <zsolt_hun> yes,i did everything as described,but still can't boot
Aug 25 19:42:47 <zsolt_hun> extracted nitubuntu to card but there wasn't any kernel in the /boot
Aug 25 19:43:05 <sicelo_> zsolt_hun: maybe you have a 'bad' N900 that can't quite use the 'improved' bootmenu (mine included)
Aug 25 19:43:46 <DocScrutinizer05> Estel_: I guess you were in a hurry to find something you could accuse me of, and thus had no time to properly think about that lame idea for "security"
Aug 25 19:44:28 <zsolt_hun> could you link me the right bootmenu's download link?
Aug 25 19:45:15 <sicelo_> http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=81613
Aug 25 19:45:31 <sicelo_> might not work for you. at least doesn't for me
Aug 25 19:48:44 <zsolt_hun> well,i use the bootmenu-n900,when detaching the keyboard shows up bootmenu.vesrsion of linux where kernel included works fine
Aug 25 19:49:59 <Sicelo> ah, you're lucky then. mine refuses to boot any kernel at all, even omap, using that version of bootmenu
Aug 25 19:51:25 <zsolt_hun> still can't understand why booting hangs when try to boot nitubuntu
Aug 25 19:52:21 <zsolt_hun> chrooted,installed ubuntu n900 kernel,initrd and vmlinuz generated
Aug 25 19:53:40 <zsolt_hun> i came here,because in nitubuntu channel is empty
Aug 25 19:54:35 <Sicelo> see if making a post at TMO won't help you. i haven't used Ubuntu on N900 . I've only used Debian
Aug 25 19:55:38 <Sicelo> because i' have'nt any luck with bootmenu+uboot, i use flasher to get my kernel onto N900
Aug 25 19:56:04 <DocScrutinizer05> seems Estel_just refuses to grok that CSSU by definition won't distribute anything that better gets distributed via normal repositories. Which, when you think ahead from there,  in turn implies that CSSU is NOT the maemo incarnation of cyanogen mod (aka "the new altenative better maemo"), rather CSSU is improving on maemo5 original, which particularly means it won't add additional restricions to users' freedom of choice, from what we 
Aug 25 19:56:06 <DocScrutinizer05> already got on original maemo
Aug 25 19:59:11 <zsolt_hun> tryed debian too
Aug 25 19:59:33 <DocScrutinizer05> all those whiners going "I got acme solution for XY, it's already in extras-devel for quite some time now, and rock solid. WTF don't you finally include it to CSSU?" already missed the point before starting to speak. I think they just want to participate from CSSU to force their acme package on more users, which is exactly NOT what CSSU is all about
Aug 25 20:17:51 <Kild> is there a easy way to flash firmware on the NOKIA N900
Aug 25 20:19:04 <zsolt_hun> yes,there is
Aug 25 20:19:10 <zsolt_hun> use flasher
Aug 25 20:21:07 <zsolt_hun> what OS do you use?
Aug 25 20:21:59 <zsolt_hun> if linux 64 don't download flasher64,it doesn't work,use 32 bit instead
Aug 25 20:28:37 <Kild> win 7 it does not work when i put the usb in
Aug 25 20:29:04 <Sicelo> ~flashing
Aug 25 20:29:06 <infobot> it has been said that maemo-flashing is http://wiki.maemo.org/Updating_the_tablet_firmware
Aug 25 20:29:34 <Sicelo> zsolt_hun: looks like arch linux guy is also active on time these days
Aug 25 20:31:40 <Sicelo> s/time/tmo/
Aug 25 20:31:41 <infobot> Sicelo meant: zsolt_hun: looks like arch linux guy is also active on tmo these days
Aug 25 21:09:36 <Lava_Croft> http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p=849980&postcount=20 but i guess Kild left
Aug 25 21:46:49 <DocScrutinizer05> Lava_Croft: is there a proper instruction how to run something "as administrator" under windows? (sorry, windows noob here)
Aug 25 21:47:25 <DocScrutinizer05> I thought I once heard sth about holding shift while clicking on some menu entry, or whatever
Aug 25 21:48:16 <DocScrutinizer05> or maybe even better: is there something similar to "su -" for windows cmd shell?
Aug 25 21:49:06 <beford> no
Aug 25 21:49:14 <DocScrutinizer05> bedmhm, thanks
Aug 25 21:49:16 <beford> right click, run as administrator
Aug 25 21:49:23 <DocScrutinizer05> beford: ^^^
Aug 25 21:49:52 <DocScrutinizer05> hmm, so you could do that on cmd itself?
Aug 25 21:50:17 <beford> yea, type cmd on the search box, when cmd appears on the menu right click it
Aug 25 21:50:26 <DocScrutinizer05> (I.E. right click on "open dosbox" or whatever it's called)
Aug 25 21:51:21 <DocScrutinizer05> incredible if there's no way to change user on commandline in windows
Aug 25 21:51:33 <beford> there used to be runas.exe 
Aug 25 21:51:54 <DocScrutinizer05> well, must relate to window and shell being just one process on that "OS"
Aug 25 21:52:06 <DocScrutinizer05> aaaah, runas.exe :-)
Aug 25 21:53:05 <beford> yea but since windows vista it's not only running as a different user, even if your user has administrator privileges, when you start a shell or app by default it doesn't have those privileges so there is this new "run as administrator" menu entry
Aug 25 21:54:13 <DocScrutinizer05> sigh, yeah, they got those per-invocation requesters as a 'fix' for everybody and his dog usually running under admin rights anyway
Aug 25 21:54:36 <DocScrutinizer05> right, I forgot
Aug 25 21:55:05 <beford> yea, UAC and people just disable it so heh
Aug 25 21:55:17 <beford> >> It aims to improve the security of Microsoft Windows by limiting application software to standard user privileges until an administrator authorizes an increase or elevation. <<
Aug 25 21:55:23 <DocScrutinizer05> right, UAC been the "name"
Aug 25 21:55:52 <DocScrutinizer05> sounds a bit like aegis ;-P
Aug 25 21:56:41 <DocScrutinizer05> only that with aegis, only Nokia can authorize elevate
Aug 25 21:57:37 <beford> and itsnotabigtruck :P
Aug 25 22:12:01 <DocScrutinizer05> indeed ;-)
Aug 25 22:23:41 <DocScrutinizer05> btw ((<Estel_> and year ago it had more competent community than 2 years ago...  <Estel_> javispedro, well, from someone inside Maemo Community, thats the feeling)) actually I pretty much believe that's correct. Quite some part of "community" indeed came late and now thinks they are the smartest bunch ever, and all they have for those on whose shoulders they're standing is despise
Aug 25 22:28:14 <DocScrutinizer05> doesn't mean this is justified by anything though
Aug 25 22:29:18 <DocScrutinizer05> s/that's correct/the second quote is correct/
Aug 26 00:40:49 <pauly12> hello
Aug 26 00:48:35 <pauly12> i miss the n900
Aug 26 00:49:17 <pauly12> no other phone takes raw pics
Aug 26 01:07:40 <jacekowski> so
Aug 26 01:07:49 <jacekowski> raw pics from shit senor are still shit
Aug 26 01:07:52 <jacekowski> sensor*
Aug 26 01:08:30 <jonwil> I have yet to see a cellphone camera sensor that is as good as even my fairly-entry-level Canon point & shoot
Aug 26 01:08:33 <jacekowski> raw is barely useful on DSLRs or other high end camera
Aug 26 01:09:06 <jacekowski> unfortunately, if your picture is overexposed/underexposed/broken in any other way - raw won't help you 
Aug 26 01:13:20 <jacekowski> well, if picture i taken in good light you will have hard time telling difference between n900 and your camera if it's on standard 9x13 print
Aug 26 01:13:25 <jacekowski> is*
Aug 26 01:14:14 <jacekowski> if you have enough light there is a lot you can do even with bad sensor
Aug 26 01:14:59 <jonwil> My Canon is much better at taking far away shots with its 10x optical zoom
Aug 26 01:15:09 <jonwil> and much better at taking close up shots with its really good macro mode
Aug 26 01:16:48 <jacekowski> macro mode just enables close focusing
Aug 26 01:17:30 <jonwil> yes but not all cameras are good at it
Aug 26 01:17:42 <jonwil> Like the Sony I owned once (piece of junk that was)
Aug 26 01:17:56 <jacekowski> sony now makes good EVIL cameras
Aug 26 01:18:06 <jacekowski> and well, their DSLRs are not bad either
Aug 26 01:18:25 <jonwil> I would never buy another Sony product, not after some of the Sony crap I have bought over the years
Aug 26 01:18:48 <jacekowski> well, i've bough samsung point and shoot
Aug 26 01:19:03 <jacekowski> as a gift for someone
Aug 26 01:19:11 <jacekowski> and well, for the money, pictures are great
Aug 26 01:19:17 <jonwil> I would only ever buy Canon cameras, I have used several and they are good
Aug 26 01:19:28 <jacekowski> though my dslr that costs 10x as much takes better pictures
Aug 26 01:20:13 <jacekowski> but i'm well surprised how samsung got into doign everything electronic
Aug 26 01:20:16 <jacekowski> and they are good at it
Aug 26 01:20:16 <jonwil> I have a family member who swears by the Canon DSLRs (and is always putting new ones on his wishlist :)
Aug 26 01:20:29 <jacekowski> nikon is much better
Aug 26 01:20:46 <jacekowski> and backwards compatible with lenses from first nikon dslrs
Aug 26 01:20:48 <jonwil> I have both a Samsung LCD monitor and a Samsung LCD TV and they are really good
Aug 26 01:21:25 <jacekowski> though it's silly how much you have to pay for some of the features
Aug 26 01:21:31 <jacekowski> wifi - extra £150
Aug 26 01:21:46 <Luke-Jr> meh, a camera's a camera.
Aug 26 01:21:46 <jacekowski> while samsung camera has it all and costs £130 in total
Aug 26 01:21:58 <jacekowski> Luke-Jr: it's not as simple as that
Aug 26 01:24:47 <jonwil> What I dont get is why cellphone companies seem to be rushing to put higher resolution sensors in their phones... When you increase the resolution like that but dont increase the physical size, less light hits each individual sensor and therefore the images aren't as good (especially in anything other than perfect light)
Aug 26 01:25:18 <jacekowski> people don't know that
Aug 26 01:25:24 <jacekowski> all they compare is megapixels
Aug 26 01:34:27 <SpeedEvil> It's not that simple.
Aug 26 01:34:59 <SpeedEvil> If you have a 5mm sensor, and then put double the number of photosensitive devices on it, the signal out does not change, unless the 'fill factor' changes.
Aug 26 01:35:28 <SpeedEvil> Surely - the individual noise per device changes - but once you 'bin' them into a resulting image, it does not change.
Aug 26 01:35:57 <SpeedEvil> Exceeding the lens resolution can have other plusses - it reduces the colour artifacts due to the bayer matrix.
Aug 26 01:36:29 <SpeedEvil> Also - go and look at the 'dpreview' review of the nokia 808 pureview
Aug 26 01:38:34 <SpeedEvil> It's actually not terrible, even uncropped.
Aug 26 02:29:11 <iluminator105> this smartreflex is that built into kernel after 50 or you have to install it separately
Aug 26 02:34:18 <DocScrutinizer05> smartreflex is some hw block in CPU, that automatically adjusts the PSU chip Vcore voltage according to clock speed the CPU runs at
Aug 26 02:34:44 <DocScrutinizer05> you can enable/disable/configure that hw block
Aug 26 02:35:46 <DocScrutinizer05> but on N900 "official" statement (for all I know) from Nokia is, smartreflex hardware is buggy and mustn't get used unless you accept instabilities or even worse effects on hw
Aug 26 02:35:59 <iluminator105> how do you enable hw block
Aug 26 02:36:25 <DocScrutinizer05> via a command to kernel, that sets some special control registers
Aug 26 02:36:54 <DocScrutinizer05> iirc they are called auxiliary control registers
Aug 26 02:37:19 <DocScrutinizer05> or did you mean how users can do that?
Aug 26 02:37:34 <iluminator105> hmm... i meant how users can do that yea
Aug 26 02:37:54 <DocScrutinizer05> for user there's some /sysfs/*/*/* node that you can write true/flase to
Aug 26 02:38:01 <DocScrutinizer05> or 1/0
Aug 26 02:38:34 <DocScrutinizer05> there are other related sysfs nodes to configure the SR hw block
Aug 26 02:38:48 <DocScrutinizer05> buzzword *volting
Aug 26 02:38:59 <DocScrutinizer05> and efuse IIRC
Aug 26 02:39:22 <iluminator105> also how can install cssu kernel to n900 as a new install wipe the old installation
Aug 26 02:39:57 <DocScrutinizer05> basically there has to be a means to tell the SR hw block which voltage to program to the voltage regulators for the several possible OPP (Operation Points, aka clock speeds)
Aug 26 02:40:38 <DocScrutinizer05> sorry, there's no official such thing like a cssu-kernel yet
Aug 26 02:41:28 <iluminator105> so i would have to reset to factory setting then upgrade
Aug 26 02:42:12 <DocScrutinizer05> there's powerkernel51 which works with CSSU as well as pk50 does, and there's freemangordon's thumb-enabled kernel which should basically be identical with PPK51
Aug 26 02:42:57 <DocScrutinizer05> iluminator105: I dunno what you plan to do, but I don't see any situation where you'd actually need to "reset to factory setting then upgrade"
Aug 26 02:44:01 <iluminator105> i just have this ppp0 devel_adoc on internet connection that i just want to get rid of, they are on my internet connections at all times
Aug 26 02:44:33 <DocScrutinizer05> for cssu-thumb you'd need pk51/thumb-kernel
Aug 26 02:45:04 <DocScrutinizer05> o.O
Aug 26 02:45:41 <DocScrutinizer05> sorry, you lost me. No clue what's "ppp0 devel-adhoc" and how it might be related to cssu or update
Aug 26 02:47:40 <DocScrutinizer05> maybe you managed to enable wifi injection drivers?
Aug 26 02:48:58 <DocScrutinizer05> if that's the case, then a) you are already on bleeding-edge and nothing to update to, and b) you still had to enable those drivers manually afaik, and you could just revert what you did to do that
Aug 26 02:49:02 <iluminator105> DocScrutinizer05, i dont how to get rid expect to reinstall to factory settings
Aug 26 02:50:04 <DocScrutinizer05> reinstall factory settings means reflash rootfs+kernel, IOW go for flashing COMBINED in
Aug 26 02:50:09 <DocScrutinizer05> ~flashing
Aug 26 02:50:09 <infobot> well, maemo-flashing is http://wiki.maemo.org/Updating_the_tablet_firmware
Aug 26 02:50:38 <iluminator105> you lost me on cssu-thumb 2 byte code i get it but....i though if you install powerkernel thumb is installed as part of it
Aug 26 02:51:38 <DocScrutinizer05> and - sorry no offense - it seems you should stay away from too much bleeding-edge stuff like that "cssu-kernel", injection drivers, etc. They are not meant for end users that run into problems with disabling resp handling them
Aug 26 02:52:39 <DocScrutinizer05> most recent powerkernel comes with a patch for thumb executables
Aug 26 02:52:51 <iluminator105> agreed
Aug 26 02:52:55 <DocScrutinizer05> user can enable and disable that patch
Aug 26 02:53:25 <DocScrutinizer05> that doesn't mean you may disable patch to revert to previous state
Aug 26 02:53:55 <DocScrutinizer05> since then all your thumb binaries in userland that you installed will start segfaulting like mad
Aug 26 02:54:16 <iluminator105> well thing is i made some changes to n900 i dont know what changes i made, i want to revert factory state then keep a journal of changes i made as i go
Aug 26 02:54:41 <DocScrutinizer05> then flashing is the only way for you to recover to known state
Aug 26 02:55:12 <DocScrutinizer05> ~flashing
Aug 26 02:55:13 <infobot> well, maemo-flashing is http://wiki.maemo.org/Updating_the_tablet_firmware
Aug 26 02:55:35 <iluminator105> i am already in cssu kernel i wanna just overclock 800mzh nothing too crazy i dont wanna do thumb or anything 800mzh with smart reflex thats all
Aug 26 02:56:31 <DocScrutinizer05> reflash to plain vanilla maemo5 PR1.3
Aug 26 02:56:51 <DocScrutinizer05> then from that factory default go on and do your changes as you like
Aug 26 02:57:57 <DocScrutinizer05> for what you just stated you want to do, you'll probably want to install powerkernel50 or 51
Aug 26 02:58:33 <DocScrutinizer05> which is a precondition to do overclocking
Aug 26 02:59:48 <DocScrutinizer05> (though honestly I personally would prefer thumb over OC every day)
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