**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Fri Nov 02 03:00:00 2012 Nov 02 07:07:29 DocScrutinizer51: another weird thing in mass storage mode is that the whole uSD is exported, even if the kernel is using a part of it Nov 02 07:08:25 also good morning Nov 02 07:24:00 morning Nov 02 08:37:00 How can I use the proximity sensor on the N900? Nov 02 08:58:08 nm Nov 02 10:30:32 vi__: did you try ramzswap? Nov 02 10:30:53 compress swap before put to disk? Nov 02 10:31:09 no, compcache, google for it Nov 02 10:31:45 freemangordon: yes. Nov 02 10:31:52 yes Nov 02 10:31:58 it is as I suspected. Nov 02 10:32:05 ramdrive? Nov 02 10:32:09 TOTALLY FUCKING BALLA. Nov 02 10:32:15 yeah Nov 02 10:32:23 hmm, Nov 02 10:32:26 balla? Nov 02 10:32:26 That means I like it very much. Nov 02 10:32:46 I am using it right now. Nov 02 10:32:53 vi_: don't Nov 02 10:32:59 no? Nov 02 10:33:09 epic data corruption ahoy? Nov 02 10:33:23 as soon as you run out of "free" segments in backing device you're screwed Nov 02 10:33:41 i warned you it is POV, not something usable fo everyday usage Nov 02 10:33:45 *POC Nov 02 10:34:20 it is missing the part of backing device defragmentation Nov 02 10:35:03 I know Nov 02 10:35:20 vi_: I am still not convinced that ramzswap (even with my improvements) performs better than swap on uSD Nov 02 10:35:24 I swapon/off to another partition every now and then. Nov 02 10:35:29 aah, ok Nov 02 10:35:49 subjectivley, I am. Nov 02 10:36:14 I just discovered tmux is compiled for the n900. Nov 02 10:36:17 see, we just don;t have powerful enough CPU to serve both (compressed) rootfs and (compressed) swap Nov 02 10:36:24 tmux? Nov 02 10:36:31 tmux>screen Nov 02 10:36:35 ~tmux Nov 02 10:36:44 you know gnu screen? Nov 02 10:36:47 no Nov 02 10:36:52 holy shit Nov 02 10:36:57 aah, ppp stuff? Nov 02 10:37:11 gnu screen is a terminal multiplexor. Nov 02 10:37:18 hehe Nov 02 10:37:31 what it is useful for? Nov 02 10:37:33 It allows you to run many instances of sh from a single instance of sh. Nov 02 10:37:55 eyah, got that, just wonder what it could be used for. on n900 Nov 02 10:38:03 freemangordon: If I ssh into the n900, I can have many instances of sh through 1 putty window. Nov 02 10:38:20 It allows you to split the screen. Nov 02 10:38:26 aah, ok Nov 02 10:38:31 more imprtantly it keeps your shell sessions running even when ssh connection breaks down Nov 02 10:38:35 I currently have 4 terminals running through 1 putty window. Nov 02 10:38:46 DocScrutinizer51: DONT SPOIL THE AWESOME CONCLUSION. Nov 02 10:38:55 :D Nov 02 10:39:07 ooohsosorry Nov 02 10:39:14 ok, sounds like a nice piece of SW Nov 02 10:39:31 SO right now I have irssi in the top left, a shell in the bottom left, mplayer on the top right and rtorrent on the bottom right. Nov 02 10:39:34 ALL AT ONCE. Nov 02 10:39:48 Even more... Nov 02 10:39:58 screen is mad useful, this new epigone though... :-S Nov 02 10:39:58 as doc was spoilerising Nov 02 10:40:43 You can detach the current session. Nov 02 10:40:59 yeah, got it Nov 02 10:41:09 sounds useful Nov 02 10:41:21 then continue it later from another connection/location etc. Nov 02 10:41:26 more like: you can reconnect to a running session Nov 02 10:41:40 freemangordon: It is like a windows manager for X! Nov 02 10:41:43 DocScrutinizer51: yeah. Nov 02 10:42:20 no matter why it broke down. It's not like you need to dedicatedly detach Nov 02 10:42:20 anyway gnu screen is old, obselete and riddled with code rot. Nov 02 10:42:47 vi_: anyway, back to ramzswap - I need someone to convince me it makes sense to finish what's been started Nov 02 10:42:50 tmux is the new kid on the block, it is like gnu screen XL EDITION. Nov 02 10:43:06 freemangordon: How about a free n950? Nov 02 10:43:10 hehe Nov 02 10:43:26 meh,screen got invented and still is maintained by guys from a university18km from my home :-D Nov 02 10:43:35 DocScrutinizer51: Is it? Nov 02 10:43:43 afaik Nov 02 10:43:46 naah, I am talking about rationale Nov 02 10:44:10 I *feel* my device performs worse with ramzswap on Nov 02 10:44:22 tmux is braindamaged, since it keeps your mobile device busy Nov 02 10:44:27 battery killer Nov 02 10:44:43 DocScrutinizer51: I will need to check that. Nov 02 10:44:49 and all that come from compression Nov 02 10:45:08 freemangordon: Is it possible to use a 'lighter' compression algo? Nov 02 10:45:30 or emphasise performance over compression ratio? Nov 02 10:45:46 i don;t think it matters, as it should happen in "real time" Nov 02 10:46:12 BTW I would like to hear ShadowJK's thoughts on that, he tried it too Nov 02 10:46:44 you nice bunch with your intriguing topics make me ponder extending my break for another cig Nov 02 10:47:02 vi_: and usually we need pages swapped in the same time we read rootfs Nov 02 10:47:36 is it possible to not use compression on root? Nov 02 10:47:48 sure Nov 02 10:48:06 obviously have to evict a load of stuff. Nov 02 10:48:17 There was also some guy... Nov 02 10:48:37 ruskie perhaps who created the move root to emmc and boot from there script. Nov 02 10:48:46 well, I think lots of stuff can be moved to /opt, but that's not the point Nov 02 10:50:10 I mean to create space on root so that compression does not need to be used. Nov 02 10:54:59 optify shite! Nov 02 10:55:29 I think the best that could be done is to just make an optimized swap. with no compression at all Nov 02 10:56:03 vi_: I think optification mainly been driven by lcuk Nov 02 10:56:19 vi_: compression (on rootfs) does not depend on amount of free space Nov 02 10:56:33 *the amount Nov 02 10:57:01 freemangordon: yes, however if you remove compression, the contents of root will 'grow'. Nov 02 10:57:08 there's still a whole lotta cruft to optify. Let's see who's tackling it Nov 02 10:57:14 of course it will Nov 02 10:57:23 again, that's not the point Nov 02 10:57:37 DocScrutinizer51: I self optify all the time. Symlink shit all over the place. Nov 02 10:58:00 check out optification jobs Nov 02 10:58:12 swap compression will alaways lead to CPU load. Usually at the same moment you need that CPU to do other stuff Nov 02 10:58:31 like rendering or something Nov 02 10:58:44 yes Nov 02 10:59:17 *if* we have 2 1GHz cores we can afford that Nov 02 10:59:25 but we don;t :D Nov 02 10:59:45 this is why I think ramzswap (with compression) is a dead end Nov 02 11:00:23 maemo-optify-auto-opt.sh Nov 02 11:00:48 vi_: ^ Nov 02 11:00:56 on the other hand, cpu might be sitting idle waiting to be fed with data too Nov 02 11:01:04 maemo-optify-* Nov 02 11:01:54 ShadowJK: sure. But usually swap writes happen on aplication startup Nov 02 11:02:11 or when switching between mmory hungry apps Nov 02 11:02:19 freemangordon: Or switching some very heavy windows surely. Nov 02 11:02:43 In the latter case, rootfs interaction is minimal. Nov 02 11:02:53 exactly Nov 02 11:03:09 but you still have stutter because of ramzswap Nov 02 11:03:28 as CPU is needed by the heavy app AND swap Nov 02 11:04:06 and that annot be solved by putting pages in workqueue to be compressed later as we don;t have enough RAM Nov 02 11:05:51 * freemangordon wonders why he cannot press ', but types ; every time Nov 02 11:06:13 aah, yes, I am C coder :D Nov 02 11:35:35 freemangordon: Did you manage to install debian yet? Nov 02 11:51:44 hmm, I see WP8 adds a feature called a "Lens" to allow apps to be embedded within the Camera app, that would have been handy on Maemo & Harmattan Nov 02 11:52:15 lardman: you mean opencv? Nov 02 11:52:30 http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-US/library/windowsphone/develop/jj206990(v=vs.105).aspx Nov 02 11:52:34 vi_: no, didn't have time to play with it Nov 02 11:52:41 has been around forever, though no GUI for it Nov 02 11:52:46 no, a way of expanding the camera app Nov 02 11:53:11 rather than needing to replace it wholesale Nov 02 11:53:12 vi_: I managed to install ubuntu, but ati cosed source driver does not work Nov 02 11:53:13 hey dawg I heard u like apps so we embedded an app in an app so you can ignore what you are doing while you are doing it. Nov 02 11:53:27 it's not really different, with plugins/filters whatever you call them Nov 02 11:53:37 lardman: It has been replaced, see camera-ui2 Nov 02 11:53:42 s/cosed/closed/ Nov 02 11:53:43 freemangordon meant: vi_: I managed to install ubuntu, but ati closed source driver does not work Nov 02 11:53:45 freemangordon: well damn. Nov 02 11:54:03 that's 64 bit, didn't try 32bit Nov 02 11:54:14 I just installed debian on a system some 2 days ago, took me 30mins+installation of closed source junk. Nov 02 11:54:24 jon_y: it's the integration rather than the backend that I'm talking about here - re backends it will be good to finally get GPUs with OpenCL support, sometime.... Nov 02 11:54:27 yo dawg, we heard you like apps so we put an app in your app so you can app while you app Nov 02 11:54:53 vi_: it took me ages to find that it is ACPI HPET that causes nstaller to hang Nov 02 11:54:59 freemangordon: How do you run scratchbox then? Nov 02 11:55:06 in vmware Nov 02 11:55:12 integration/backend, its the same, just depending on which direction you look Nov 02 11:55:15 vi_: yes, just a shame Nokia didn't listen to us and provide Camera app expansion earlier in the product lifecycle Nov 02 11:55:29 lardman: It is just a shame doesnt listen. Nov 02 11:56:14 the camera app expansion is not where I'd have liked the listening to be :-) Nov 02 11:56:14 vi_: I'll give debian a shot again, just not soon, there is more interesting things to do ;) Nov 02 11:56:16 jon_y: hmm, not sure about that; the integration issue was present all over the shop and basically due to the closed apps Nov 02 11:56:38 freemangordon: My advice is 32bit debian testing. Nov 02 11:56:43 vi_: like kernel in CSSU and such Nov 02 11:56:49 vi_: yeah, I know Nov 02 11:56:49 camera is at /dev/video or something Nov 02 11:56:52 freemangordon: YEEAAAHHH!!!! Nov 02 11:56:57 closed is fine as long as there are apis to allow expansion/addition of features, providers, consumers, etc. That's the point of the Lenses thing just too late for us Nov 02 11:57:01 vi_: see :P Nov 02 11:57:33 heh, C++14 Nov 02 11:57:37 I only have windos so I can play some games. Nov 02 11:57:57 SpeedEvil: I realise there were many other problems, but this was something we discussed in Amsterdam, which is a long long time ago Nov 02 11:58:07 :-) Nov 02 11:58:22 and yeah, I know. Nov 02 11:58:35 Jolla will save us! Nov 02 11:58:43 jolla... Nov 02 11:59:02 From what I've read it will also have a closed UI, so it will presumably present the same challenges Nov 02 11:59:17 let's hope they listen better! :) Nov 02 11:59:22 there are confusing noises about that. Nov 02 11:59:23 off course jolla will save us, they have produced more devices than tizen+meego+moblin combined! Nov 02 11:59:37 closed can mean something like harmattan Nov 02 12:00:00 or it can mean 'non GPL' open source, without the right to use commercially Nov 02 12:00:05 that would be shame Nov 02 12:00:08 swipy swipy SWIPE. Nov 02 12:00:13 BUT IT HAZ SWIPE. Nov 02 12:00:20 SpeedEvil: sure, I forgot about the latter Nov 02 12:00:44 I fear it will be closed source though as otherwise it's probably hard to monetise it Nov 02 12:00:54 the latter, with the ability to buy licences would be most awesome Nov 02 12:01:04 lardman: and therein lies the problem with OSS. Nov 02 12:01:11 vi_: +1 Nov 02 12:01:26 SpeedEvil: even the former with decent expansion apis would be fine, got to start somewhere Nov 02 12:01:36 very true Nov 02 12:01:58 even just rolling back to the state of harmattan would be an improvement Nov 02 12:02:02 Google have half managed it. There income does not come from selling/maintaining their OS. Nov 02 12:02:06 Harmattan was not too bad from that point of view, shame they pulled the plug effectively making it pointless to develop for the platform Nov 02 12:02:20 ^teir Nov 02 12:02:23 ^their Nov 02 12:02:47 vi_: But Jolla need something to pay the bills, Google have their advertisiing revenue Nov 02 12:02:56 exactly. Nov 02 12:03:07 vi_: 'first win the lottery' approach to financial planning. Nov 02 12:03:12 s/advertising/ads+services Nov 02 12:03:28 People will not release software for your platform if users can just pirate it by emailing it to each other. Nov 02 12:03:49 they will if it's free software Nov 02 12:03:57 to a degree Nov 02 12:04:23 the infrastructure needs to be friendly though Nov 02 12:04:34 my interest is in developing something that is useful to me and others, and investing time I want to be sure that what I write will be able to run on something in the future without too much messing around Nov 02 12:05:11 but we all know this, it's the same for everyone who's not releasing commercial sw Nov 02 12:05:16 and then there are fun issues Nov 02 12:05:44 like, an android 'wine' layer would make your phone more saleanke Nov 02 12:05:50 saleable Nov 02 12:06:01 but screw native app developers Nov 02 12:07:03 I'm on the fence about that, I think it would be good to provide lots of apps up front to get people using the platform Nov 02 12:07:27 I suppose no-one would bother developing natively then as they could target two platforms at once Nov 02 12:08:00 though presumably the native stuff would have better integration, and generally be better once written, which gives some motivation to write stuff Nov 02 12:09:27 only other hope is bounties, and spaying devices around developers like confetti Nov 02 12:09:32 spray Nov 02 12:10:01 Which is what Nokia did with WP7, and that wasn't overly successful Nov 02 12:10:08 well, or in-house Nov 02 12:10:11 indeed Nov 02 12:10:37 or even an in house porting process for compatible apps Nov 02 12:10:45 they are GPL after all Nov 02 12:11:54 I wonder if lots of apps are actually necessary, perhaps it would work better targetted at power users to being with, accept that you don't have 10 million apps to download but that you can write stuff Nov 02 12:12:03 i.e. similar strategy to the N900 Nov 02 12:12:33 10 million apps, and none of them do what i want Nov 02 12:12:46 ShadowJK: I know that feeling! Nov 02 12:13:58 I have not found a usabke cad app on android that works with fingers Nov 02 12:14:33 there are eleven billion 'my drawing programming let's you use a kitten as a brush' Nov 02 12:14:50 lol Nov 02 12:15:25 The offerings on the Psion 3/5 were better in that regard, some quite technically good apps available Nov 02 12:15:49 Probably the stability of the OPL language helped with that Nov 02 12:16:23 and the demographic of the people using them Nov 02 12:17:13 it's kinda depressing when the original palm beats it in some ways Nov 02 12:17:48 the majority of android appz are bodges, kludges and workarounds. Nov 02 12:18:23 I wonder if there are actually a core of really good apps there somewhere, hidden by the huge number of things in the Market Nov 02 12:18:46 yes, the one that lets you put debian on it :) Nov 02 12:19:01 makes vi usable on a touch screen :) Nov 02 12:19:27 but then we come back to the problem of a lack of apps that are actually useful on a small touchscreen Nov 02 12:19:56 E.g. running Ubuntu even on a 7" screen is terrible Nov 02 12:20:11 Not the desktop but the apps themselves Nov 02 12:30:47 lardman: I've found searching for GPL in the market gives very different results Nov 02 12:32:11 I tend to search for those with a git repo :) Nov 02 12:34:13 :q Nov 02 12:44:12 hi lardman ! Nov 02 12:44:21 hey Doc Nov 02 12:48:25 lardman: alas it turns out the API of closed stuff always lacking elementary features and according to that strip linked in ~aegis: Nobody can *fix* it Nov 02 12:48:42 ~aegis Nov 02 12:48:43 http://www.developer.nokia.com/Community/Wiki/Harmattan:Developer_Library/Developing_for_Harmattan/Harmattan_security/Security_guide , or "The purpose of this framework is: ... to make sure that the platform meets the requirements set by third party software that requires a safe execution environment.", or http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trusted_Computing#Criticism, or http://en.qi-hardware.com/w/images/1/10/ME_382_LockedUpTechnology2.gif Nov 02 12:49:23 DocScrutinizer51: which means one also needs the second step, for the developers of the closed parts to listen to the people using the APIs Nov 02 12:50:28 hat's mainly a problem of schedules and culture in industry Nov 02 12:50:36 that* Nov 02 12:50:41 sure Nov 02 12:51:12 I suppose if the software will be continually used though, not just thrown away while the next thing is developed to replace it, there might be a better chance Nov 02 12:51:22 of course it all being open source would be far better Nov 02 12:52:07 look at fremantle vs harmattan Nov 02 12:52:54 debian forever! :) Nov 02 12:52:59 how much of stuff in fremantle got fixed, how much been binned and replaced in harm Nov 02 12:53:18 that's a fundamental problem though of changing direction Nov 02 12:53:29 for the second time Nov 02 12:53:46 manufs never *use* their own dogfood Nov 02 12:55:17 usually when field feedback comes in, your inhouse knowhow already retired or died Nov 02 12:56:13 all that TIMETOMARKET and CYCLETIME actually has downsides, who'd thunk? Nov 02 12:56:39 yeah Nov 02 12:57:22 oh, and agile for programmers is nothing more than an excuse for being lazy in coding and long term planning Nov 02 12:57:25 TTM=2years, cycle/lifetime=6months Nov 02 12:58:35 means you usually got 4 products in the pipe Nov 02 12:58:43 with 4 teams Nov 02 12:59:51 once a team rolls out their product, they immediately switch to product-v+4 Nov 02 13:00:13 product support also suck Nov 02 13:00:24 obviously Nov 02 13:00:40 as a reult of all this Nov 02 13:02:01 the alternative are longterm stable industry platforms which are available and supported for several years and cost like 10* the consumer product Nov 02 13:02:12 presumably if they use the same sw then fixes will be rolled in for the following products though Nov 02 13:02:39 see workstations, they last two times longer but cost 4 times more :( Nov 02 13:05:24 lardman: you been around at #openmoko back when? Or did we 'meet' here first? Nov 02 13:06:10 DocScrutinizer51: Probably met here, I came from the Zaurus to the 770, and that was around the time OpenMoko was starting iirc Nov 02 13:06:26 yep Nov 02 13:10:30 well, lunch break over, bbl Nov 02 13:10:43 cu later Nov 02 18:10:03 freemangordon: ? Nov 02 20:58:11 I have just introduced mrs vi_ to portal. Nov 02 20:58:55 for a soon to be dr of synthetic biology, she is hopeless at solving puzzles in a virtual 3d environment. Nov 02 21:39:55 :-) Nov 02 22:17:12 Anybody knows a typing-game like 10fastfingers.com? Nov 02 22:17:38 vi_: start with lemmings or Numptyphysics Nov 02 22:18:24 err wait, in our world that's pingus Nov 02 22:19:09 It used to work good on microB but now it they changed to website to a much heavier version Nov 02 22:19:42 Lemmings works good on dosbox + ext mouse through hostmode and tvout :) Nov 02 22:22:58 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lemmings_(video_game) vs http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pingus ;-D Nov 02 22:26:52 awesome improvement on a 8*8 pixel animation :-D http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Lemming_animation.gif Nov 02 22:28:24 Besides, anybody noticed google stopped providing special-maemo search results Nov 02 22:28:50 Now it redirects to the full google :( Nov 02 22:29:38 o.O Nov 02 22:29:49 I already forgot they ever did Nov 02 22:32:18 Well it's for some time already but I don't like it Nov 02 22:32:32 takes longer to load Nov 02 22:48:21 awh only 29 WPM on N900 Nov 02 22:48:36 http://www.wordsperminutetest.com/ Nov 02 22:49:46 try it with OSK. Nov 02 22:51:35 :-) Nov 02 22:52:45 http://www.speedtypingonline.com/typing-test Nov 02 22:52:49 57 wpm Nov 02 22:53:15 I miss the old 10fastfingers, it was very compatible with microB :( Nov 02 22:53:25 No OSK sucks :P Nov 02 22:56:33 wtf is debootstrap? Nov 02 23:00:46 DocScrutinizer05, lemmings can be used for simulation of KMP :D Nov 02 23:01:38 kerio: I need you! Nov 02 23:02:07 SAID NOBODY EVER. Nov 02 23:02:50 It's a case of logarithms and python Nov 02 23:03:00 I'm accepting substitutes since vi's outburst Nov 02 23:03:23 substituts for logirithms? Nov 02 23:03:32 vi: also, debootstrap is awesome, it deploys a debian base system into a directory of your choice Nov 02 23:04:07 gtg Nov 02 23:04:08 bb Nov 02 23:04:10 :q Nov 02 23:04:11 vi: http://dpaste.org/20iE5/ I have that and I am 90% sure it works Nov 02 23:04:16 ciao Nov 02 23:32:12 deepy\SIGSEGV: ohai Nov 02 23:32:43 deepy\SIGSEGV: you fail so hard D: Nov 02 23:33:26 kerio: yes I do Nov 02 23:33:33 I don't know math :D Nov 02 23:34:23 So I take it, it's not working? Nov 02 23:35:06 it's... nonsensical Nov 02 23:35:17 also use math.log Nov 02 23:35:48 why b-1 if the result isn't exact? Nov 02 23:36:10 kerio: I'm not allowed to use math.log Nov 02 23:37:04 also, shouldn't it return 0 if the result is too small? Nov 02 23:38:19 it's a fucking logarithm Nov 02 23:38:28 chances are, it's not going to be an integer Nov 02 23:39:55 kerio: that's one of the critera, it's an integer Nov 02 23:40:04 x and b are both positive integers Nov 02 23:40:26 you fail *so* hard Nov 02 23:41:40 log_4(2) = 0.5 Nov 02 23:42:55 oh, it doens't say that output has to be integers Nov 03 01:40:09 exit Nov 03 02:47:00 http://techcrunch.com/2011/12/25/rooted-motoactv-brings-web-browsing-and-angry-birds-to-your-wrist/ Nov 03 02:47:10 (same hw as n900) Nov 03 02:56:55 Cazy Nov 03 02:57:28 s/Cazy/Crazy **** ENDING LOGGING AT Sat Nov 03 03:00:01 2012